I just returned home after six days in Clearwater area. The most glaring fact I observed was that DM is sparing no expense to put a lid on my best, good buddy Michael John Rinder. I estimate, conservatively, that they are spending on the order of five thousand dollars a day solely on surveillance of Mike. We had several cars on us at all times during daily trips throughout Pinellas county. If it weren’t so potentially hazardous to innocent bystanders, it would be funny. They had a number of late model, tinted-window vehicles running stop signs, running red lights, crossing center islands, running the wrong way on one-way streets, and even had a guy going sixty miles an hour on top of the center island on U.S. 19 for some distance in pursuit. They have infiltrated our cell phone carrier system to track us electronically. We let them be in hopes of preserving some of the parishioners’ hard earned donations, protecting the well-being of innocents, and throwing some interesting red herrings his way. Still, DM is so demanding of our every move his PI corps are putting the lives of Pinellas county citizens at risk each day. With the amount of in-your-face tailing Mike is receiving, it is wonder to me that he remains so cool.
The Iceman
I, on the other hand, have received some emails from friends suggesting I cool my jets for a bit. After watching the video of our Wednesday Fort Harrison video, they suggested I take a long weekend. I wasn’t in the best of moods. The night before DM, in his inimitable style, while he knew I was far away in Clearwater, sent a couple goons to pay a visit to Mosey at our home in Texas. Despite being alone she was quite a bit more dignified, composed and friendly than the Fort Harrison welcoming crew we met.
DM’s Texas mission again was fixated on finding out my “prices” for service. Seems DM just can’t accept the reality that not everyone is a money-motivated, greed-driven power addict like himself. Please get this through your thick head: I don’t need a lot of money because, unlike you, I don’t want to control, surveil, oppress and suppress people. In the meantime, I’m taking my friends’ advice.
Chillin' at the Shack
Moving On Up a Little Higher 
I got to tell you, I’m not sure if Miscavige is pure evil or if he only tries to protect what he truly believes in… like a mad-man kind of fanatism. He might be extremely narrow-minded to the point of one pure dynamic: Scientology. That is unfortunately NOT the gr8est good for the gr8est number of dynamics.
I’ve heard that he got some asthma cured by Dianetics. Is that something you can confirm Marty? Have you ever heard or seen him in a sec check or similair? Otherwise, talk about non-symmetrical justice. In a pure society everybody should be equal in front of the law.
Great to see that barbecue and freedom of life which is what Scientology should be all about, here in Sweden is about the right time to start that kind of activity as of now. 😉
Hubbardianen, not my reality. He is ALL about himself. Has nothing to do with Scientology. It could be the NJ mob or Exxon Mobil or a Banana Republic. Doesn’t make a difference. Folk who keep attributing his conduct to LRH are sorely misestimating the situation.
Marty, you and Mosey look pretty chilling to me! good on the two of you! Mike you look pretty chilled out to.
I knowDM just can’t stand it. That petty little creep can’t run an organization so he has to do something all day! Enough complaints start coming in about this reckless driving Bull Sh– they will all be spending time in the pokey!
It really is interesting what some people will do for money, following others around. Actually it is so pitiful its almost funny.
Great job Mosey, Marty and Mike
Marty,
Your services are PRICELESS! I guess that is a concept he would have difficulty doing a clay demo of, being the head of the Reverse Technology Center and all.
I’d love to get a debrief from Mosey on her experiences.
And to DM I say: Yippee-I-O-Ki-Yay……
Marty,
Since I can’t find a contact link, I thought I ‘d just pose my question(s) here, and if you feel like it maybe you could respond, via email or here.
First, I am not a Scientologist, but have, like many, been fascinated by the reports of dissenters for years. While I have no reason to question your integrity, intelligence, or commitment to what you consider properly employed tech, I wonder if you might elaborate on LRH, especially regarding the eleventh of your Thirty-One Factors.
Now, clearly you very much admire the man and his work, and I think even those who are skeptical about the originality of his insights can’t help but be impressed by his prolificacy as a communicator and organizer. Nonetheless, real and persistent questions about LRH’s presentation of himself and his accomplishments simply do not square with the record—his education, military service, etc. etc. Personally, I do not think that a complicated relationship with one’s biography precludes brilliance, insight, even genius. Great thinkers have been shown time and again to play fast and loose with their credentials, unable to abandon youthful boasts and fictions once in the spotlight. So, my first question is, can one distinguish LRH’s very human flaws—pride, a record of dishonesty—with what he exhorted others to do (in the best sense; the system which you advocate and which you believe is corrupted under DM)?
Second, and this is related to your Eleventh Factor but is an extension of the above, what sort of PR should have been employed to address statements (which, by the way?) which challenged LRH’s image? What data do you have to counter the claims made about Hubbard’s biography? Or that he openly talked about religion as a money maker among his writer friends? Please, these are persistent questions—in fact, many who have fought to bring to light the injustices of the Church have been inspired not just by DMs pathological influence, but by real suspicions about Hubbard’s motivations as well. Since you have become a de facto spokesman for what you see as uncorrupted Scientology, I’d hope you’d be willing to take a crack at this.
Again, this is not about the veracity of LRH’s insights, but about an honest portrait of the dude.
Just want to end by saying I’ve been really impressed with your blog, your media appearances, and your courage, along with your comrades, in challenging the Church and its leadership. I may not agree with—or completely understand—your religious philosophy, but I deeply respect all that you have done and the compassion you’ve shown for your brothers and sisters.
Best,
Will
Word clear narccissist to extent. It is a special brand of Psychopath. Than we will check with one another wich brand of narcissist he is.
Looks yummy, enjoy! Celebrate all the triumphs– because there have been many! Marty, Mosey, Mike and all, you are very much appreciated and loved. And that is true wealth and happiness!
Bravo Marthy, DM must be just boiling in his own stew. Too bad I can’t go to the US… perhaps we can meet sometime elsewhere. PIs don’t do to well with my country’s police.
Marty,
I am glad you are chilling with your 2D.
You may want to check into a cell phone that is not able to be tracked. I will look into such for you and e-mail you privately about it. I know they exist but do not want to post that info here.
Glad you are back home and safe.
Centurion (make mine medium rare)
Thanks for sharing your adventures Marty with us all.
If we didn’t know the evil behind it, it would be very amusing what they are doing.
Knowing you Marty and Mike, I am sure you are taking every precaution to protect yourselves and those close to you.
Hey when are you coming to Las Vegas?? We can always use more excitement in this city.
Have a great weekend.
Marty, it looked like to me you were doing just fine with those guys.
A martial principle is to only expend enough force as necessary as to not be vulnerable, and it seemed to me you were right in the bounds you should be: exactly, in fact.
As an wog I thought, “Now THAT’S a Scientologist doing Scientology. Those TRs didn’t blink one second.”
You delete some of my posts and I understand why. No hard feelings. I get it.
“ARC” to you, Mosey and Mike. I can’t wait to see what you all grow into from this.
If one of their PI’s hit another car and caused substantial injury or death, they would be liable for huge damages. Not to mention the PR flap it would create. They might want to think of that before the next time they play Grand Theft Auto on Florida’s highway system.
And I’m sure these repeated visits to Mosey is really endearing church management to her. Why should she do anything they want when they harass her? But I guess actually thinking actions through logically is not their strong suit.
Have a nice, chill weekend, all of you. The fact that you are able to do so speaks highly of the concept of total freedom.
Darn tough to put a lid on something that’s expanding.
I think it’s more like trying to stick a wet noodle up a wildcat’s ass.
I get your point. Haven’t met DM i person though but numerous persons seems to have and there are now many, many testimonials about abuses and so on. Too many to ignore as “SP-lies”.
I’m leaning toward the worst possible scionario: After LRH died one of the worst possible things occurred: Some kind of single-minded none-dynamic individual took over and used it in the most wrong way amongst sensitive and pro-survival Scientologists. Slow but effective. Remember Gandalf the Grey? LRH the White could hopefully be the next necessary thing.
This might explain why church and philosophy never went hand in hand. The picture gets clearer and clearer.
Thank you Internet. And all of you who stood up. Theta fingerprint might be an applicable term. We will all know who did what and when, and it will always be remembered. Everything can be traced. Even without MEST.
Keep up the good work.
Marty, What, left turns in heavy traffic? God
wish I could have been there. You learned good.
Mike, Man you look so chillin. I don’t speak of
you much because we haven’t met but I have so
much admiration for you. Looking forward to
then.
If DM were all about Scientology, it wouldn’t be shrinking drastically. And he would be out in the open, visiting churches around the globe. And he would be getting auditing as well as training.
From the data I’ve read on this as well as Thoughtfull’s site, as well as my own observation in my city, none of the above is happening.
According to Wikipedia he is turning 50 on April 30th. Wonder if they’ll throw him a multi-hundred thousand dollar, Cruise-like birthday party…
Sure sounds like the Dwarf is insanely, over the top, obsessed with Mike and Marty. The movie Fatal Attraction comes to mind.
Is it possible to get a restraining order on him or his PI’s? And how about a Rottweiler for the homefront.
I wouldn’t worry about the mood – looks fine to me.
Unlike the thugs sitting behind their blacked out windows in their chase car all day, you might need some sunscreen. ;o)
Thugs have to stay behind black windows or in coffins.
What a waste of good people’s money. Sad really.
Hi Marty,
Well Done on Chillin and Grillin!!
As you know, disconnection is my hot button, so I am so glad that you got proof at the Fort Harrison. I absolutely loved it!!!!! To Mike, it takes a lot of nerve and guts to knock on the front door of Scientology and demand to see your son. All of you win the Courage Award for doing what DM could never do: CONFRONT SOMETHING HEAD ON and prove you are right about what you say!!
My postulate was, on the night that Tommy Davis said “There is no disconnection policy”,
that THE WORLD WILL KNOW THAT HE IS LYING. When your BBC program airs, the world WILL know he was lying. Thank you for the courage to make that postulate real in the physical universe. And Mike, I know the pain and heartbreak of being disconnected from your son. I truly hope that you find a way to be in comm with him. Until then…..
All my love,
Lady Minn
For what it’s worth, I thought the temperature of your jets was just right for the circumstances.
Its time for another enecdote:
In 82 or so I had been asked to audit a SO member.
I had been told that he never made any progress in auditing and never did have TA action.
I reviewed his folders. Can’t remember how many but maybe 5 or 6.
And glancing through those I saw, that he had all his auditing ZERO TA action.
As I had been ordered I went into session with him and went stuck on the W/H rudiment.
I did my best to get this rudiment in, but no go.
I stopped at that point and made a better C/S to crack him and waited for C/S ok. But same day was not possible.
That night this SO member had been on watch.
That night he stole all his PC folders, some OT packs and blew.
This did happen, as nobody cared.
It was known that he did not have TA action.
(I wonder how he could have auditing, as the ruds had been out. But no one did care.)
Now they had a big action to catch him and get back the OT materials.
I think it could be a bit similar to what happend with DM and his fellows.
Nobody did care.
Duuuude, I wish I knew you were here that long! Damn.
Random question…I have never seen it posted ANYWHERE what COB’s official case level and training level are. Of course we know he was never a posted auditor or C/S, but what is HUD checksheeted training level? Also I have seen it noted that he is not even qualified to read the OT 7 & 8 materials, but no mention of what his case level is. I know that 80% of the NOTS auditors at AOLA are not even OT 5 completions but were only permitted enough auditing to finish a rundown or two so they could qualify to start the Class IX course. It’s sickening. Anyhow, Marty, are you aware of his case and training level? If so, are you willing to say?
Just a reminder, when Bob Minton got arrested a couple times in Clearwater, it was on days when Scientology was pushing him by doing things like trailing his girls back home.
Stay safe and play it cool.
If you want to be the “Pope” then you have to be, do and act like the real POPE.
This just in from the NYT today:
Pope Urges Repentance in Homily :
…
“I have to say that we Christians, even in recent times, have often avoided the word ‘repentance,’ which seems too harsh,” Benedict said at a Mass later broadcast on Vatican Radio.
“Now under the attacks of the world, which speaks to us of our sins, we see that the ability to repent is a grace, and we see how it is necessary to repent, that is, to recognize what is wrong in our life,” he added.
….
Well Norman, what say you? In AC 360 you positioned dm to be just like the Pope. Can we expect that your pope will now act like the real Pope or will we continue to see a fake…………?
I know, a silly question, but I thought I’d ask.
Friend of Ron
First, It’s moot. We’ve canceled any and all of his certs.
Mosey and Marty, down at the Shack, and Mike, Christie, and others (still in town?) down in Florida —
Yes, it’s pop a beer and wine time all across the land this beautiful spring weekend. It’s time for grilled steaks and hot dogs and Mexican food and fried chicken and guacamole and chips and weekend libations.
It’s been a good week — let’s all celebrate your good work. At our house, we’re raising cold bottles to your health right now.
Sante!
Just Me
Hahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
W, Hi. I am attempting to put this all into the large context it deserves. If I can ever get a few months of solitude I’ll complete it. There is so much noise out there as to who promoted what and who stated what, this could turn into a several month debate. In the interim, on a personal level, representations about one’s past never impressed me much. When I got into Scientology in 77, with a backpack, shorts, boots, and twenty-five bucks to my name, one of my first impressions was: why would you guys promote a war record for a guy who was supposed to have puzzled out the way out of one’s head? I think we do ourselves a service by judging someone by what he/she produces rather than what he/she has to say about him/herself.
Just Me, you are so sweet.
W,
The questions weren’t directed to me so I don’t feel obligated to answer them.
I’d suggest that you take the Factors, the Scientology philosophy ones, and experience them, one at a time. Then you can judge for yourself the work. That’s what Scientology is, the work, the methods of knowing, gaining certainty of your own being and the being of others, and the one we all sit here fooling around in, the agreed upon.
I’ll bet you a million bucks that if you experience the above Factors for yourself, you will answer many of the questions you have about the man, L. Ron Hubbard.
I’ll give you a challenge too. Go out to someplace, a nightclub, a party, someplace where a bunch of people gather and chat and mingle. Meet up with some person you don’t know, get into small talk a bit, then spin some really far-fetched tall, big-sky country type tale. Make up something completely outrageous and tell this person with a totally straight face. Don’t let on, or let up but continue to create the story. Leave them with it. Now, go back to the Factors (the Scn ones) and see what they mean to you now.
Have fun with this too! I’ll bet you do 🙂
Mosey,
We take a slab of pork ribs and boil them. Not too much, just enough. Then slather them in some really good sauce, something with a li’l bite from Looosiana maybe, or the Carib. Burn them on the BBQ. Not fully, but that black chocolate color. Crack some ice cold beer, or a very well chilled German Riesling, and tell me that ain’t having it all!
Awwwwwww, really? Ha! There must be a reason why no one has said it. And I’ve read it all. Why won’t anyone say??
I’m in Vegas too. Please let me know when and if you stop by:)
Any chance a restraining order could be served on OSA?
Ding, ding, ding! Give the man a cupey-doll, he’s hit the bullseye again!
Head thrown back, hahahahahaha
First – he doesn’t use it, he doesn’t have it.
What an excellent response! Thank you Marty for your wisdom.
Wise Beard man
His face is Beard
His words are Wise
Will,
I’d like to throw in my two cents worth.
Though, like Marty, I find it hard to get into a general discussion on the subject of claims regarding LRH’s past, I have an intesting story to impart.
Back in the mid 1980s I worked with Marty in the Church’s legal department and I was handling a case which dealt in part with LRH’s credentials. Specifically parts of his WWII war record, how he commanded a sub chaser, was a fantastic leader of men, fought Japanese subs off the West Coast of ther USA, was injured but recovered and other similar points.
I knew of such claims about LRH’s past and like a good Scientologist just assumed they were true, but the sheer amount and weight of vicious ridicule that was thrown at these claims by slick lawyers during the heat of courtroom battle even had me reeling and wondering about them and it had church researchers scouring the country for any war timewitnesses.
The trial did not go well, it seems it is much easier to tear a man’s reputation down than it is to build it up.
Then one day, a little too late in the trial to help with the outcome, an old gentleman arrived. Despite his 70 plus years he’d travelled many a mile and I got to spend some time with this gentlemen and questioned him at great length.
He wasn’t a Scientologist, not sure he’d ever heard of it. He hadn’t seen L Ron Hubbard for around forty years but heard that people were casting aspersions at his old friend so came a running.
He was L Ron Hubbard’s Chief Officer from the “fictitious” sub chaser and relayed to me in detail how he had spent many hours, around 26 hours straight if memory serves me right, with Hubbard aboard that sub chaser fighting a number of Japanese subs threatening the west Coast of the USA, sinking at least one of them, and how the senior naval authorities poured cold water on and suppressed the reports of the incidents for their own reasons. He told me how he had stood beside Hubbard in the latrine and couldn’t help noticing that his commanding officer was pissing copious amounts of blood due to his injuries; told me that Hubbard was by far the greatest naval officer he’d ever served under, that he could turn a rabble into a well drilled crew and did, and that to this day he would walk through hell for the man.
Regardess of the truth of specific claims regarding Ron Hubbard, I was left with an abiding thought, what quality and stature of a man has friends who, forty years on, drop everything to come and help defend them?
True story.
I saw the satire article “Pope promises to get child molestation down to acceptable levels”
The one for Cof$ “:avid Miscavige promises to get complete destruction of LRH tech down to reasonable level.”
Indeed.
Haydn,
Wow!
W,
Go to Geir’s Scn Forum and send a mail to Maria, she’s one of the moderators, and ask her for the Naval Record time line and the data behind it. Add that to the data relayed by Haydn. There’s reports by a former Joint Chiefs officer out there as well.
Russell Miller is a putz, more importantly, he can’t research for shit. He’s got the ‘know it all before he goes’ thing I was mentioning.
Jim,
Low slow oven heat for 4 hrs ( or more) with Liquid Smoke on both sides. Covered with a lid.
Then add sauce and bbq
I wanted to thank Haydn for the story about LRH’s old Chf Officer. That was really excellent. Many years back, I was on a video shoot throughout the US where we interviewed many old timers from the beginning Dianetics days. I recall many of these old people’s very positive stories about LRH especially about his good manners and pleasantness with people. I was at Gold for about 21 years. I was no senior exec but I did have the privilege of being around LRH for about a year back in ’78. I know that he generally did 2 solo auditing sessions per day. During that time he wrote the scripts for and directed some tech training films and wrote the Battlefield Earth book. He was definitely not evil nor dictatorial to his crew although the production demand was very high. We had our days off, we worked very hard and we enjoyed each other’s company for the most part.
If you have experienced the tec of Scientology and you have had personal benefit from it, know that LRH is the source of that tech. It would be just civil and right to appreciate the man for what he did for you there. As for DM, he is basically the anti-LRH.
Jim-
Haydn’s post doesn’t even include the name of the “old man” while Russell Miller’s book is extensively documented.
But Haydn is providing “data” while Miller is a putz who “can’t research for shit.”
I don’t think Scientologists do their cause any real good when they approach matters of LRH’s bio with such a “the good stuff is true” “the bad stuff is false” mentality. It suggests to the rest of the world that Scientologists have had their critical thinking skills excised.
haydn, thanks for sharing this story. It’s great to get this view of it. I recall a time at the Portland Mission when John Carmichael was talking about this. He said that he had been doing some research and it appeared that LRH had sunk a Japanese sub off the Oregon coast. He was attempting to get verification so that he could get the Oregonian to do a story on it. Must not of ever happened though as that would have been a big deal. Certainly worth remembering.
Very well sais Mary Jo, very well said. Hugs & kisses to all.
Chillin like a villain!!
Great job everyone!!
Now pork out on some good grub, have a beer and we will continue the blood bath on Monday!!
🙂
Alex
Brendon,
Firstly, I was simply relaying an anecdote from 25 years ago in which an aging man showed up on the scene and did all he could to defend an old friend against slick, highly paid lawyers.
But what I described is a matter of available public record in the LA County courthouse if anyone wants to go look it up. I’ve no idea who Mr. Russell Miller is but if he doesn’t have the information I’ve relayed, and taken it into account in some way, shape or form then his research is incomplete because it has been public testimony since 1985 and I assume any work he has done has been since then.
Other than that I don’t think most Scientologists much care whether everything ever said about L Ron Hubbard was proved true beyond a reasonable doubt.
Monte,
Later, I saw a bunch of telex traffic from LRH’s ship to shore and back reporting on the battle and requesting such things ammunition re-supply and the like.
The Pacific naval authorities quashed any story at the time because they didn’t want civil panic, they didn’t want it known that the enemy was on the doorstep, an idea the American public were not used to.
But I do believe I saw a modern story in the press about it, eventually.
I have some observations on the “in their face” approach that I’d like to share for your consideration. (About half my posts never get through moderation on this particular board, though I am sometimes surprised by the ones that do. I hope this one makes it because, as are all my posts, it is intended to be supportive and helpful to your cause — though I remain skeptical that Scientology in any leadership’s hand would have a different result — but I’m willing to watch what happens.)
When the people here see Marty and Mike do what they did at the FH, your reactions remind me of what the”critics” were doing, and reacting to, years ago. Bob Minton, Mark Bunker, Jeff Jacobson, Stacy Young and many others — people you called criminals back then — did the same thing. So in some ways this is old news for me, but I’m glad you now see how crazy it looks when a couple guys can turn a whole organization upside down simply by showing up at the door.
What I am concerned about is you are missing how to exploit the real opportunity people like Marty and Mike have to really effect change — because I want change as much as you do believe it or not. Maybe you have thought-through plans but I don’t see them.
I can only imagine what the impact would be if half the people who post here showed up at a big event and engaged with the members who they saw, perhaps even know, as they were walking in. Or perhaps attended an event — those who could make it through the door (disguises?) — and publicly call out when lies are being told, or ask questions that are on the attendees’ minds but they are afraid to ask. It would be eye opening in a way that critics could never accomplish by trying the same.
You have more power than the critics ever did. Your very existence through these boards is already a story about how you are flexing that power. But in my opinion you are still just scratching the surface of your ability to effectuate change.
Well done you guys. When can we expect the BBC interview with Mike Rinder to be broadcast?
Marty wrote:
>> “why would you guys promote a war record for a guy who was supposed to have puzzled out the way out of one’s head?”
” I think we do ourselves a service by judging someone by what he/she produces rather than what he/she has to say about him/herself.” <<
This is *so spot on*!
David Miscavige needs to clear the word “Charge” — it doesn’t mean fleecing people for everything they are and have!— it’s negative influence you take off a person’s case.
brendon,
Miller is a putz, and he can’t research for shit. It’s got nuttin’ to do with whether LRH is a ‘good boy’ or the ‘bad stuff is false’. I’ve studied this stuff voraciously and meticulously. The cause of Scientology has very little to do with the bio, and everything to do with the subject. However, if you take Miller’s tripe as valuable data in your evaluation of whatever it is, then by all means, eat shit (Miller’s that is).
anon,
MMMMM. I’ll try that!
Hey Mike, nice to see you (at Marty’s) and hear from you dude. Jim
Marty and Mike, what you did going to the Gates of Oz and pulling back the curtain was not easy.
I imagine the confront to do that — well, all I can say is that courage really does come from it’s root meaning — the french word ‘coeur,’ the heart.
Power to you, and I salute you for being bigger than fear and threats.
I hope Mosey filed a complaint for trespassing and harassment. There are people around who are looking out for her.
It’s a good idea to give cameras to the neighbors, too;)
Glad to see these photos of you enjoying the right to beliefs, Scientology and the pursuit of happiness.
Church of Miscavage: SHAME ON YOU for wasting human lives, Scientology, money and time on Tonka Toy war games.
brendon,
We may not agree on Miller, however, we agree on several points you’ve made here. We do have a tremendous power, and I’ve tried variously to communicate it to others not familiar with what it is, it’s source.
I’ve suggested the Factors as not a mere study, but an experience. That’s the only real way to know what Scientology is. You cannot get it from reading about it from any of sundry places. You get it from you experiencing it, like Hardeep in the video from the other day.
What you can tap in terms of power is without limit. That’s what you are witnessing in part. The rest, well, we’re just getting started. There is a very important element to that power though, one that you can read about but it isn’t real until you experience that too: ETHICS. Makes all the difference.
Thank you everyone for being true. Sending you love, have a good weekend.
Sending this song out for you
~ High Tide or Low Tide ~
“a child is born into this world, he needs protection. Guide and protect us. When we’re wrong correct us. Stand by me in these High seas or low seas. I’m gonna be your friend.”
I read the unauthorized LRH biography which covered in detail the many mistakes LRH made in his life. When Dave found out, he had Andy Lenarchic busted off post. Anyway, Andy was a friend, and I was there when Andy finally solved an old mystery. He found out that LRH actually had two war records; the real one, and a duplicate that was apparently a cover for LRH’s naval intelligence work. Andy of course was Danny Sherman’s handler for years. So any time I had to coordinate something with Danny, I had a little time to visit with Andy. Andy and I also sometimes wound up on the same Saturday renos teams, doing carpentry.
Andy liked to talk about his research on the LRH Bio Project, after all that research was the whole focus of his life. Such conversations were “just between us” because I didn’t want to do anything to stop that flow. But one day I came in and Andy was just was astonished because that day he had finally found a second war record for LRH. For years Andy had been trying to make sense of what had happened since what LRH said he did, did not match his “war records.” The second record, which had been classified, did match.
However, none of that has anything to do with why Scientologists respect LRH. That is something some non-Scientologists can never understand.
Scientologists respect LRH because his developments and discoveries in Scientology work. We don’t care about anything else. LRH was not perfect, he was just a man. He always made that clear. The fact that an imperfect man, as imperfect as the rest of us, can create something as great as auditing and training, Wow! THAT in my book is the greatest accomplishment in history.
Hey Marty I was thinking obviously if DM’s mission wanted to know about your “prices” for auditing it suggests they are making no income. people will not participate in their game anymore. Your exchange is so in and that is a concept they can not have.
Keep on keeping on and bringing discussion out into the open. These posts are interesting.
Hey Dean, do you have a hushmail?
Hahahahha…….!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Perfect Marty.
Great to see Marty, Mosey and Mike having a good time. While Mike is relaxing on the boat and enjoying his birthday, Marty and Mosey are celebrating their accomplishments for the week and enjoying life, I am sure little Davey is drunk and buried in hundreds bottles of Scottish Whiskey purchased with the parishioners’ donations.
Marty, Mosey, Mike thank you for being united and strong.
Marty I would like to know if you know of any instance where DM has audited anybody to a considerable win. And maybe there is an instance or too, but there should be several actually of such instances. I cannot really think of the leader of Scientology for 30 years to not being able to deliver any auditing. It is a big indicator and we should have the data, certs cancelled or not. If the guy doesn’t audit I don’t think he can be the leader anyway.
And I am afraid the guy is not auditing.
LRH all he did was for the Tech. That was his first priority, not Admin or Ethics.
I have never heard or seen Miscavige sit down in a chair and audit anybody. This is a huge indicator.
Hey Mike! Well said! Glad to see you chiming in.
Steve Hall
Marty, just a question. Were you in the LA area around February last year. I thought I saw someone that looked like you on Fairfax and Melrose but when I went back to take a closer look the person was gone. You need not post this or answer unless you want. I was just curious.
If Mike Rinder’s account of being beaten by David Miscavige over 50 times is true, and I personally believe that it is, what does this show us about Mike Rinder’s dedication to Scientology?
What made him tolerate so much abuse?
Was it just plain fear of David Miscavige and/or the false belief that David Miscavige could take his away his eternity if he didn’t allow the abuse?
I doubt it.
Could it have been his belief in Scientology and his desire to do what’s best overall?
In my honest opinion, if there’s anyone that is putting their eternity at risk, it’s David Miscavige and anyone who’s aligning themselves with him.
Veritas wrote:
“David Miscavige needs to clear the word “Charge” — it doesn’t mean fleecing people for everything they are and have!— it’s negative influence you take off a person’s case.”
A SP can´t get case gains, so it would be waste of time.
Cowboy poet, where do come up with these things!
🙂
Here’s what dm et al just DONT GET:
The really really dangerous person is someone who has NOTHING TO LOSE.
Marty, Mike, Steve, etc. in fact ALL of us here on this board – I would say have LOST what we feared the most.
We LOST scientology. NOW, don’t flip out on me here — we lost it as we knew it … and dared to do so. (our souls became the most important thing to salvage)
We stepped OUT OF THAT box of organized scientology– into an unknown world.
AND GUESS WHAT? We found first 1) ourselves 2) LRH 3) Scientology 4) friendships 5) freedom
Nothing under the sun really scares me anymore. Nothing. I’ve faced my own demons, walked through my own dark night of the soul and come out singing …
It was an extremely painful time, took years for my mind to become whole again.
I paid my dues, took my chances and by god, have lived to tell the tale.
As we all have.
The VERY important thing to me is … get plenty of sleep, eat well, go for walks in nature, kiss your wife/husband, tell your family that you love them, and for heavens sake:
DONT OBSESS. Let dm obsess.
Love you all,
WH
Marty, You deserve a break!! It is the NBA playoffs! Take that delicious food your cookin and watch some games have a good time. If I remember correctly you are a big basketball fan.
Mcgwire
W.. I was in the Church for 10 years. I knew that all the stories of LRH weren’t completely accurate but I thought it was Managements fault so didn’t ever worry about it. I just knew what I was doing in Scn was WORKING and thats all that mattered.
Only a few days ago I read a book on LRH that shocked me and shocked me badly. I took it all on board and felt very betrayed by Ron himself.
I wrote to Joe Howard and told him what I had read and asked him his opinion,then I took a step back and I divided the very compact book into the years that Ron researched and looking at it that way definately spaced all the “incidents” out. Then I looked at myself and the pressure I felt in the Org as the only technical terminal that also did HCO’s job in ethics, metered interviews. I was also in charge of Qual so basically I was wearing nearly every hat in the Org (not reg though). My Org was a teeny tiny Org with about 10 staff and very few public yet I was under incredible pressure and sometimes the top blew off the pressure cooker and I would lash out at the first person I saw (not good I know).
Sometimes the person that copped it would write a KR on me and you would not believe how different their story was to mine. So I can’t imagine how Ron must have dealt with it over 50years and if he made mistakes so what. He did so much more good than bad and that makes him a hero in my eyes.
If he told tall stories about his life who cares. If he wanted some glory who cares. A man that would spend 50 years mapping out a workable philosophy of life despite his faults deserves to be remembered for the good he left behind and there is good otherwise we wouldn’t be fighting so hard to keep the Tech alive.
Chris Owen M.B.E. wrote on Ron’s war record. http://www.solitarytrees.net/cowen/warhero/contents.htm
Chris was awarded a Member of the British Empire for his services as a British military historian.
This made me laugh so hard, I almost fell of my chair.
Have a very nice weekend Marty.
“Some kind of single-minded none-dynamic individual took over and used it in the most wrong way amongst sensitive and pro-survival Scientologists.”
And he had the SO at his disposal to do it.
not to my knowledge.
“I think it could be a bit similar to what happend with DM and his fellows.
Nobody did care.”
Being believed to allready be the most Ethical people on the planet might have been a factor,
Work on the street at the FSO/FLB circa 1978 when dm was running missions from Int – was that he was a cracker-jack auditor at 14 at AOSH UK … touted as the youngest auditor — although I knew that to be untrue cuz at CCLA there was a 12 year old who really was cracker-jack.
So — maybe he did at ONE TIME IN HIS LIFE audit — we are now 36 years later.
WH
@ Hayden. What was the name of that person /
I love this post. Thank you so much for posting it. You’re beautiful.
Jim when did this man pop up and where ?
Marty, I agree with McGwire. The Bulls are
about to kick Lebrons butt. Be there or be square.
Hi, Jim! Nice to see you, too. I remember your excellent cram sessions back in the Cine days. Mike
Hi, Steve! This is a place where I find many good people who I know and who have similar views to my own. I am not much of a blogster but I like the people here. Great to see you and my other good friends from times past. Mike
Both of you are shining light in the crazyness of DM and the fake Church of Scientology.
People are watching, and disconnection is not something of a true Church. Each day that passes, we are seeing the abuses, the PIs, the donations spent to shut up people who disagree with DM, and the lies… More people are leaving… Great job.
Haydn, thanks for that anecdote. Definitely adds to the real picture of LRH.
Cat, not my story.
CS Lewis in “Mere Christianity” said Jesus could only be one of three people: a liar, a lunatic or Lord of all.
He was wrong. (Sorry Mr. Lewis)
There are FOUR possibilities: Liar, Lunatic, Lord, and MYTHOLOGIZED HUMAN.
When a human becomes mythologized, his or her myth MUST ALWAYS conflict with their real life and create a form completely different than his or her true life.
The example of Joseph Smith comes to mind. Smith famously plagiarized other sources and called them his own. And every reliable account outside of the church sources portrays him as a con man and scoundrel. And yet, people find power, and moral structure in the mythology of the ideals he presented.
Mormons find the usefulness of Smith’s mythos more powerful than the truthfulness of his real life.
Knowing this, I suggest you talk to 10 Fundamentalist Mormons about Joseph Smith’s REAL life and see just how nowhere you get!
You will get locked into the true believer’s algorithm and never get out of this communication loop no matter how long you talk.
LRH in a letter to a wife stated his aim to “slam his name so violently into history so as to take mythological proportions.”
I guess we can say he did that.
The question is, how shall we mythologize him and layer his life with even more stories that never happened? Because, to be frank, when this religion survives, these stories will write themselves regardless what anyone does. Give a religion 500 years and a founder becomes truly AWESOME!
While we can, I think we should dress him in a torn shirt like Doc Savage and add some muscle. After all, I think a Doc Savage mythos is the branding he was going for. Hell, he probably knew Lester Dent (Pen name: Kenneth Robeson).
And while we are at it, we can create comic books of him being exterior on Venus fighting some “Doctor X” or something.
And of course a tag line is necessary. Hmmm … “For Theta!” Yeah, that would work perfect coming from him in a muscle bound spirit sans legs while flying around the universe.
VERY IMPORTANT: His ORIGINAL writings must remain unaltered in their original state. Otherwise you have false scriptures just like the Mormon church does. It is so freaking hard to get an original copy of the Book of Mormon with all the mistakes in it. The church holds that copyright TIGHT and makes it hard to get one. Thank you stss(dot)nl !
NOTE: I’m NOT kidding. I’m NOT being snarky. I’m REALLY suggesting you guys do this. I think it’s what the old man really wanted.
After all, who doesn’t want Doc Savage muscles?
Veritas, I loved this! Thank you!
Thank you WH- so well said! Love back to you-
Mary Jo
It could have been Gene Hackman as Popeye Doyle.
Monte and Haydyn
I remember hearing about the Jap subs in US waters as well on a documentary. This also validates the “it never happened” phenomenon.
Here’s the URL.
http://www.historynet.com/japanese-bomb-the-continental-u-s-west-coast.htm
Thoughtful,
“Scientologists respect LRH because his developments and discoveries in Scientology work. We don’t care about anything else.”
This is an absolutely true statement for how I feel. I continued in it because I got real usable technology to handle life. I had tools that allowed me to create my life to my design.
That was enough for me but then to throw in the spiritual gains from auditing, that just put the subject of Scientology as a keeper in my book. LRH created that, validity or lack of it on his bio will not take away what I have gained.
I hadn’t heard about Andy in ages. He and I used to do “door to door” booksales back in the day. I absolutely hated it but he was great at it and a lot of people got on lines because of him.
He only said “wildcat’s” ass because he respects his horses too much! 🙂
Heather,
If I had the time and the inclination, I could make mincemeat of the honorable Member of the British Empire’s “reasearch.” But, I have neither. Peace.
@ Karen, It would be a gem to have Andy Lernarcic show up here. It absolutely would.
Marty, This site is just like a box of Chocolates.
Full of theta candy. Gump
Hard to believe but true, I remember while at the Int Base, forwarding a request from DM to make a couple of e-meter pc leads that were 15 feet long, so he could perform e-meter checks on some high executives. Those PC leads were made so they could be passed (along with the cans) around a big round table while DM would not have to move from his position watching the E-meter. Some of you guys may remember that day (perhaps Marty or Mike). Who is the Squirrel now?
Mike L, Hope you remember me. Think I may
have trained you or tried to. Welcome and please post often.
Connected, I missed that one. But, it sounds part for the course. Witnessed things equally bizarre. Thanks for contributing.
Thanks Marty, Well the person who made those pc leads told me at the time that they would not properly works, because of the lenght of the pc leads would cancel (by a great deal) the e-meter signal (reads). One’s more it was a show by DM trying to scare his own staff and executives. However, the idiot in the whole cycle was DM doing some squirrel tech on his staff.
What about some of your short stories witness experiences Marty? You should tell us?
For those of us who have had gains and recognize the amazing scope and power of the technology, it is fairly easy to separate LRH the genius from LRH with the dark side.
However, for those who haven’t had auditing or wins, the negative side is far more significant since it keeps them from reaching for services.
If there is data that nullifies some of the negative rumors or “facts”, it should be made broadly known. And, on the other hand, if some of the negative rumors or “facts” are true, then they should be thoroughly acknowledged.
We do know what happens when something is begging for an ack and it never happens, don’t we?
@ thoughtfull, there is more to the story things do not suddenly out of the blue pop up at convinient times.
“Make it go right”
I never met LRH, but I have met two non-Scientologists who knew him prior to 1950. One of the gentleman had served under LRH in WWII. Neither had seen him since that time but I also was struck by the fact that both remembered him very well and very fondly. They both had nothing but the greatest respect for him and I always felt that spoke more about LRH’s character than any flashy biography.
Marty, I hope you are able to have a relaxing weekend! Time off is great and you deserve it!
Vacations are great. I remember seeing a not very publicized FO where LRH says to give SO members their time off, they deserve it, yet it was always treated as something that was ‘off-purpose’. It can take some time to realize that it’s okay to relax and goof off.
Reminds me of a recent cognition I had: wanted to survive across the dynamics is not ‘other fish to fry’!
★ !
Tracking you through the cell phone networks seems to be a bit impractical. If I were them, I would put a little magnet mounted GPS tracking device on the bottom of your car. These do send back location data in near real time through the cell phone network.
Maybe you should invest $50 in a GPS jammer
http://gadget.brando.com/car-cigarette-anti-gps-system_p00963c024d001.html.
Or inspect your vehicle
WH, We each walked our respective roads and you really said it! 🙂 —>
“AND GUESS WHAT? We found first 1) ourselves 2) LRH 3) Scientology 4) friendships 5) freedom
Peter,
Which brings up another question that staff and public within the Co$ Walls need to ask:
On that very axiom alone (i.e., an SP can’t get case gain) how is it that so many of these uber bright, shining, winning beings out here are “declared” SP?
Theta is to an SP like water is to the wicked witch of the west in Oz… as a drop hits her, she melts, screeching.
In DMs complete inversion, THETA is suppressive to him! 😦
Staffers and public get hit for being too animated (from the latin root, anima which means SOUL.)
Karen,
Thanks for that link. I went and read the article then did a bit of searching along this topic line via Bling and came up with some other interesting material. Anyway, I sure enjoyed the read. And yes, our West coast was bombed more than once by a Japanese aircraft launched from a sub.
@ Thoughtful, what a great story. Thanks much for sharing.
@ et al, following along in this dialogue that was instigated by Will has been most thought provoking for me as it seems to have opened up yet another angle from which to view a topic that holds much interest for many i.e. the enigma, L. Ron Hubbard.
Okay, before I go any further I want to clearly state that I, from the moment I met the man (via DMSMH) in a bookstore in Gresham, Or., in late 77′, have always considered Ron Hubbard as my dear friend and mentor. And over the years in my availing myself of his body of work and applying his tech to life, I have experienced remarkable, irrefutable gains. I have no axe to grind, in the least, with this being.
As I began to emerge from out of the CoS lie and began to look around, it didn’t take long or much reading to discover that my dear friend, LRH, did apparently have a rather dark side. And upon discovering that I must say that the emotions I experienced were mixed for a while as I navigated these turbulent waters as truth and fiction passionately wrestled with one another. Eventually, though, I did arrive at a stable point of consideration from which to proceed with this exploration into the life of my enigmatic friend and mentor, LRH.
What I really want to have is the truth about this being we knew as L. Ron Hubbard. And, I just want the truth. I don’t want a truth with modifiers. In other words, I don’t want the horrible truth, the wonderful truth, the painful truth, the workable truth, the acceptable truth, the enlightening truth, the freeing truth and so on and so on. I just want the truth. Truth without adjectives. The naked pure truth about the man, about the being and about his legacy. That said, I realize that what I want to have may not ever be possible. So, having this awareness, I don’t fret over the missing answers nor do I stop looking for the answers (the truth) either.
At this point in what I call “the big sort out” I don’t discard anything. Instead, I set up columns and give each column a heading. A column heading represents a possible scenario e.g. a couple of column headings I have for LRH are: 1)technical tragedy and 2) black ops victim. Anyway, as I proceed forward and come across pieces of data I sort the data into the column/scenario that the data supports thus, as data is assigned to specific columns the columns begin to look like bar graphs indicating what scenario has the most supporting data.
There is truth about LRH and Scn and there are many, many, many lies too. It is going to take a while to sort it all out but, personally, for me at least, I find the process to be incredibly rewarding on a multitude of levels.
Jeeeez! What slackers!! 🙂
Was reminded of a KR written on me because I took libs one weekend….written by Jesse DeCrecenzo. Heard he’s no longer in the SO. Hope he’s taking some libs now.
Have a great weekend everyone. Good advice that I am following myself.
Eileen
Hello everyone, I wish to weigh in with my 2 cents here.
I have a few points to make so in the interest of clarity I will enumerate these.
A – We don’t know all there is to know, there are lies in the both camps. The Church and detractors. LRH may have lied here and there. But we can not at this time confirm either way.
B – People who have not benefited from the tech, will not be able to fairly judge, since the Church has not actually documented what it knows to the public and admitted what it does not know. I also suspect that as long as David Miscavige is in charge, none of the actual material showing all the truth will be available
C – On accounts of him being this monster by people who “knew him”, well, people’s perception of what happen is not always what did happen. I’m sure anyone can find examples of experiences in which the other participants of an incident were sure things were totally different than how you saw them, including your attitudes.
For Example, I tried to pay a compliment to a lady, who promptly rebuked me for “making fun of her” when it was never my intent. Still she would not hear my protest that I meant it cleanly, sure that I had been sarcastic and sought to ridicule her.
D – For me the most important and logical of all answers is the truth that Hubbard was a man, afflicted like all of us by the same shortcomings attendant to the human condition. He personally stated this a number of times. If he made mistakes, if he lied, that only proves this very fact in my mind. With all his failings, he produced this work, which has helped me personally in a way that nothing else has.
That is what matters most to me. To say to hell with all of Scientology because we caught him in a lie, is like saying. “Let’s trash all of Mozart’s music, he was a lying philanderer. Or “Beethoven’s work is trash, the man was proven insane and couldn’t even hear music”
The truth is that no great man in history is perfect or fully clean, they all made mistakes, most of our great heroes, from Alexander the great, to Regan, Churchill, Clinton, Einstein, etc all of them have been found to have skeletons in their closets, still what they did in one way or another forms a legacy that has helped shape today’s humanity.
I know many will argue that Hubbard could not be compared to these great names.
Even if true. It only makes my case stronger. If Washington and Jefferson had slaves, if Lincoln was really more interested in political coup than in abolishing slavery, if Churchill was ruthless and played god, if these accusations that have been leveled at these men are all true, it does not one bit detract from their very tangible contributions to man kind. Why should Hubbard’s failings?
I understand that people who have not gotten the benefit of the tech will in fact not have enough knowledge of the man to judge him fairly, only the large number of stories, mostly unfavorable, found on the net or the largely undocumented unbelievable stories in the Ron Mags. But I have to ask, why is a different standard, a different measuring stick being applied to the man? If he was caught in a lie that renders his whole work invalid? Can we subject every other revered person to the same test? is there really a person that NEVER EVER said a lie? Made a mistake, had an impure motive? Was never selfish?
He is my friend, faults and all. He is a human being that cared enough to give me very important answers. To dedicate 2 thirds of his life in search for answers, whether he found them or not, still that can not be argued with. That is all that counts in my heart.
As to the charge that he was interested in creating a religion for profit. It appears from my little research that the 2 making these accusations waited till he was no longer around to defend himself and clear his name to make them, so we have their word and no chance to hear his side of the story. Just saying…
Miscavige is not putting his eternity at risk, he lost it long since, I doubt if he even thinks of it as real, I think it is more something he knws people value, which he believes is not real, and uses it for his own gain. at any rate, he is probably the last person who’ll ever make it.
Dear Veritas,
I cried as I listened to this song. I would like to dedicate it to my son, who is temporarily disconnected from me, has suffered so much due to this evil practice (by his own account), and who recently got into trouble and needs my help now, and is rejecting it.
It is a very beautiful song, seems especially written for a mother, and I want it to be on my website. Thanks so much for providing it for us, and hope Marty, Mosey and Mike and all the rest of the “Freedom Fighters” find comfort in it, too.
Veritas, I always love your posts! Thanks again, Lady Minn
DM finished the Class IV Internship at AOSHUK in the early 70s, I am informed. He audited me (flew ruds) in 1973 while doing the Academy levels.
Paul
That’s the best photo of Mike I’ve seen to date. Glad to see you looking so well, Mike.
Thanks for finishing the story, Marty by adding part II, and photo after you got home. I hope you are having a great, full of theta, week-end.
I find it nothing short of “heart wrenching” what has and continues to happen in my once beloved and cherished church group. “If it isn’t fun, it isn’t Scientology”.
@ Concerned Citizen – CC, your post was excellent! You made some very good points and I happen to agree with all that you said. And, with what you have communicated here you have opened yet another door into a room with a new view.
CC, you wrote…
“The truth is that no great man in history is perfect or fully clean, they all made mistakes, most of our great heroes, from Alexander the great, to Regan, Churchill, Clinton, Einstein, etc all of them have been found to have skeletons in their closets, still what they did in one way or another forms a legacy that has helped shape today’s humanity.”
and…
“…if these accusations that have been leveled at these men are all true, it does not one bit detract from their very tangible contributions to man kind. Why should Hubbard’s failings?”
“Why should Hubbard’s failings?” Because CC, LRH was not working in the same zone as these other men that you are making the comparison to. These other men were not attempting to free all of mankind. These other men had not made discoveries or developed technologies (never before in existence) that, when applied correctly, could free a spiritual entity from an aberrated existence as a greatly flawed homo-sapien, to an almost godlike state of being in just a course of several years. A person did not have to die in order to attain a height of spiritual freedom hitherto unknown on this planet. Fantastic news for humankind!!
LRH set foot on the road to truth and he then took his truth to the world. He was the manifestation of Siddhartha Gutama’s prohecy of 2,500 + years ago. He was Metteya who Buddha prohesized would arise to complete his work (see Hymn of Asia). And in a very short amount of time this incredible ever growing aggregation of some of the brightest beings on the planet formed up around him. And those who became profcient in his teachings applied and disseminated his technologies to others and in so doing miracles became the norm and the word of L. Ron Hubbard spread like wildfire.
Spiritual beings while engaged in their spiritual journey seem to have a propensity for putting their spiritual and/or religious leaders high up on a pedestal. Furthermore, beings in the human condition desire, need, want, expect and even demand that those individuals who assume that role of spiritual guru, be an embodiment of what is perceived to be that which is perfection. And, when the truth is at some point revealed that the guru less than perfect condition is exposed…well, there’s hell to pay.
LRH, though, was in a unique category of spiritual leadership because he had developed a tech whereby its application to an average humanoid could gradually eradicate the accumulated flaws (aberrations) that were keeping the being trapped. In other words, a person could become better and better and less and less flawed as they applied the tech of scn to themselves. That noted, LRH being the originator of this highly workable mental and spiritual tech, even though himself, as a man, having many flaws, was applying his tech to himself therefore, in the process, supposedly eradicating his flaws and becoming increasingly more able and more powerful, indeed, more godlike.
That said, one would expect that LRH in his applying his tech to himself for all those years would have been in a fantastic body, mental and
spiritual condition. BUT…the square peg meets the round hole when one reads the documented coroner’s report regarding LRH’s death. It just doesn’t add up does it?
We have much to sort out here. Would anyone disagree?
Monte, Yes, obviously I would disagree.
Marty, “obviously”? I don’t understand. You disagree that we have much to sort out here? I’m puzzled. I would very much appreciate if you would elaborate your POV on this. I am both interested and curious as to how you view this. And, just so you know, and not to imply that you would need or want for me to, I am more than willing to change my POV if I’ve gone off the trail here.
Thanks.
No, but I guess I could set it up. This must be super top secret—I’m enthralled! Gotta leave town for a few days so don’t expect any quick response.
Thanks for all your nuanced responses, folks. And thanks, Marty, for providing an open, honest forum. It’s amazing how little it takes to make a man or a set of ideas NOT seem sinister. Can someone please copy DM on the memo?
Best,
Will
I don’t think you guys came off badly at all. What we need is more people with a camera and toothpick in front of orgs confronting staff, not less. The aggressiveness was good. Indies don’t have to be mild and nice and dispassionate about this, the battle of ideas is over, we have all the evidence on our side and it’s time to fight. Things won’t change without face to face confrontation with SO and staff.
If they track you by your cell phone, they can still triangulate on your position with the cell turned off. Only by taking the cell’s battery out can you disappear off the grid.
Yes, of course I remember you. And I do recall you hatting me up. Times were very fast back there and then.