Miscavigetown on the anniversary of Jonestown

Posted on November 18, 2010 by Mark C. Rathbun | 394 Comments

I said it from the outset. The overriding reason I spoke to the St Pete Times in the first place last year was to prevent Miscavige from going the route of Jim Jones of People’s Temple. I told Anderson Cooper that CNN’s Jonestown Anniversary documentary got me to thinking about the parallels between David Miscavige and Jim Jones. Apparently, the maintstream media were intimidated by Radical Scientology from airing these comments. Well, MotorCityRedneck (whomever that is) has drawn those parallels very graphically on this anniversary of the Jonestown massacre. I thank that person for going through the trouble of effectively communicating what I apparently was not able to articulate convincingly enough. Fasten your seat belts. Here it is:

This entry was posted in anonymous, black dianetics, cover up, disconnection, healing, int base, miscavige crimes, miscavige lawyers, propaganda and tagged “mark rathbun”, David Miscavige, david Miscavige” “Marty Rathbun, scientology. Bookmark the permalink.

394 responses to “Miscavigetown on the anniversary of Jonestown”

Songbird | November 18, 2010 at 4:32 pm |

Thanks for this, Marty. The similarities are quite uncanny…and chilling. ML, Songbird
Floating Needle | November 18, 2010 at 4:34 pm |

WOW!!! Too close for comfort!
Natalie | November 18, 2010 at 4:34 pm |

Wow! That really puts the situation in perspective. The parallels are uncanny and scary for those still trapped.
Martin | November 18, 2010 at 4:47 pm |

Indeed. I posted about this recently. The parrallels are many – some really surprising, and watching the full documentary through educated eyes is highly recommended. It is very, very, very sobering.

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=1984081816666746895&hl=en&fs=true
Dean Blair | November 18, 2010 at 4:50 pm |

There are a lot of similarities between DMs “church” and Jim Jones. I was impressed with the video produced by Motor City Redneck.
Something needs to be done now by the people before the abuse goes any further and possibly results in an event like the Jim Jones Massacre.
atcause | November 18, 2010 at 4:50 pm |

Wow.

There’s more similarities between the two than I thought.
Tom M | November 18, 2010 at 4:59 pm |

Chilling. I bet you get HE traffic from OSA today!

ML Tom
Patty Pieniadz | November 18, 2010 at 5:02 pm |

Excellent video. Thanks for posting the link.
Sinar | November 18, 2010 at 5:07 pm |

Kool aid drinkers indeed, with similarities of control through sleep, financial deprivation, informants, control of eternity and thought stopping!
idle org | November 18, 2010 at 5:09 pm |

Jeff Hawkins has mentioned Steve Hassan, an expert on cults, and the uncanny paralells between Scientology and other cults.

Jim Jones was “source” on koolaid.

David Miscavige is carrying on the tradition.

How come the FBI isn’t involved in this situation by now? Or….are they?
Michael Henderson | November 18, 2010 at 5:12 pm |

When we joined the SO at Flag in 2005, as OTs, we did not expect the almost immediate sleep deprivation. The schedule was set up with staff tape plays of all the Congresses, at 11 PM lasting until after midnight, so that after the bus ride to the berthing , you could get maybe 5 or 6 hours sleep. Saturday morning, it was up just as early for an apparently useless muster for cleaning stations. There were no chances to “catch up ” on lost sleep. We now realize this was intentional, and done to put us in a frame of mind of obedience and compliance. We understand it was much worse at Gilman. The parallels with Jim Jones and the People’s Temple are obvious, and this video is a public service warning to those with family members in the Sea Org under DM.
windhorse | November 18, 2010 at 5:18 pm |

In the early morning hours, before heading to post, I woke up to the news of the Jonestown mass suicide. My heart stopped.

It was the era when nearly every senior exec and then some, were RPFd as list one RSers. Many were my friends and certainly NOT SPs.

That confused me. Or should I say, terrified me. Waiting for that ominous knock at my door in the late evening hours to cart my husband or me away.

And now this utterly terrifying news of 900 people committing suicide because they were following orders of their leader, is the news at 8AM.

The RPF probably had over 300 people on it … all marching, chanting as one voice on the top of the Fort Harrison garage every morning as I dressed in my uniform.

I saw the parallels back then. It chilled me to my core.

Today, the parallels are even more obvious. Hemet is in lockdown. No one has seen Shelly Miscavige for years. My friend Diana is there. My old friend Heber.

Their minds have been stolen. Their children are gone. Their lives have been forfeited.

The ONLY difference I can see between these Jonestown interviews and the Scientology interviews is that the Jonestown interviews were done AFTER the massacre. The Scientology interviews have come before a potential massive massacre.

It is thanks to all those who have been speaking out against this cult for years and more recently through this blog, that I am hopeful these two cults don’t mirror each other in the end.

WH
Samuel | November 18, 2010 at 5:31 pm |

It has been mentioned before on this blog. I have spoken about such a possibility (with all the horrible consequences) with friends – and sort of put that thought on the backburner again – hoping, wishing it wasn’t that bad. The similarities are horribly similar. I’ll up what I do – that’s my best and only answer.
Sinar | November 18, 2010 at 5:38 pm |

And alteration – 20% tithe! Tithe is a one-tenth part of something, biblical suggestion of donations.
Cat Daddy | November 18, 2010 at 5:46 pm |

Davey Jones is lurking from the deep.
Martin | November 18, 2010 at 5:52 pm |

It was far worse at Int. Although I probably averaged 6 hours sleep in the UK SO, while on the Int RPF all-nighters were a regular occurrence. Accidents were commonplace obviously. One guy lost a finger on a circular saw, another nearly broke his back falling off scaffolding. I remember one night seeing Rick Siegel literally falling asleep on his feet while trying to hold up a wood frame. I have a long scar on my leg to this day trying to cut roofing felt in the dersert heat on no sleep when the knife went into it. We were on an impossible deadline to finish building the LRH music studio, and when it was completed we were all asked to do hat write ups, as many had developed considerable expertise. We even had our own superior RPF name – The GCT (Gold Construction Team). Although I was a carpenter, I submitted my hat write up on health and safety, since there was basically none on the building site. That didn’t go down too well.
atcause | November 18, 2010 at 5:53 pm |

Not to mention keeping them from talking to each other.
OTDT | November 18, 2010 at 5:57 pm |

W O W ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Tom M | November 18, 2010 at 6:05 pm |

Michael, I had heard that in the mid 2000’s there were 50 or so new trainees for Super Power and all were OT VII or VIII. The walked out enmass in 2006 or later because they were so upset when they were stripped of all their worldly goods and then were screamed at in the courserooms, kept up late and so forth. Do you know about this?

ML Tom
Jim Logan | November 18, 2010 at 6:29 pm |

Marty,
I’ve been trying to assume the viewpoint of those in OSA, public, staff, SO, that keep DM propped up, that make a reality the comparison of Jim Jones and the People’s Temple to David Miscavige and the Church of Scientology. How can they do this, when it’s as plain as day that DM is destroying the Church and attempting to destroy the subject? That he has, and this is very, very hard to swallow, made the Church of Scientology a ‘cult’.

A clue came up in the study of the 2ndACC this morning. In the objective ‘tracking back of the agreements’, that is, getting a person to see a wall first, THEN, by gradient scale he’ll come to realize the actuality of the wall, it’s an agreed upon mock up – an ‘illusion become solid’. He’ll have to perceive reality first. The wall is REAL. He agreed. Telling him ‘it’s all an illusion’ and forcing that on him won’t fly as it denies the original agreement that the wall is there.

You have to track back through the various stages of where the guy is now, and how he arrived there. The wall wasn’t there, then it was mocked up, then it was agreed to, then it was denied, now it isn’t. But, the original consideration was that wall was there.

The original consideration was that the Church was there. Along with that, goes the moral codes that are part of the Church being there, the Code of Offenses and Penalties, errors, midemeanors, crimes and high-crimes. Lots of these have to do with un-mocking the organization, the Church. They were agreed upon as part of becoming a member of the Church of Scientology – they are expressed in Policy Letters, the basic agreements that ‘put the church there’.

To violate them is a violation of the original postulates, the original agreements, the reality of the group, the reality of the Church. It is a violation of the moral code that one agreed to. One agreed to it because he recognized the validity of Dianetics and Scientology as SUBJECTS, and in particular, if one is very much in agreement, the validity of the technology in application.

Here’s the rub.

The Church, the org, is valid and a workable solution to wide scale application of the technology. It’s a 3D which is stronger than a 1D in accomplishing PURPOSE. It’s policy is there to align efforts to accomplish PURPOSE. The Code of Offenses and Penalties is a moral code for the group and its members, expressed in ‘policy’, to align action to that PURPOSE.

But what about the case when that PURPOSE is no longer the factual aim of the efforts of the group? What if the moral code is now used to enforce conduct that is opposed to the PURPOSE? If it is used to stop resolution of departures from the purpose?

The moral code was agreed upon as it aligned with the purposes. That original agreement sits behind the actions of OSA, public, staff, SO.

Here’s the analogy to the data from the 2nd ACC, tracking back the agreements that give one a ‘real’ wall. The question to ask, and that is asked and answered by those who can see the ‘wall’ that is the present off-purpose of the Church, is ‘what wall?’ In other words, is the Church you agreed to, the Church that presently exists? Is it the Church envisioned by LRH as expressed in Policy or is it one envisioned by David Miscavige and his ‘policy’?

Is DM enforcing a moral code that once led to the reality of the Church LRH policy puts there but now is used to police behavior to align with supporting a corrupted vision of the reality of the Church? Are you enforcing a moral code on yourself that no longer aligns with the purpose you agreed to and is in conflict with that purpose at this point?

The reality of the Church today is being not-ised by those within the Church or for PR purposes, begrudgingly ‘acknowledged’. That reality is enforced disconnection, false and capricious SP declares, gross out tech in confessionals, gross out tech in metering, and the list of issues outlined in the recent Letter from Garcia, the Friends of LRH site, this site, Scn Cult, to name several.

DM is playing on the Offenses and Penalties as your stable data in the present scene. YOU are enforcing a moral code on yourself that you agreed to originally, that no longer is aligned with the PURPOSE of the Church.

In fact, wrap your wits around this: you are committing continuous present time overts by robitically applying this moral code to support David Miscavige in his destructive acts against you, the Church, LRH, LRH tech, Scientology, the whole gamut.

Listen boys and girls, I AGREED with this moral code too, and when this is said and done, I will continue AS LONG AS IT SERVES THE PURPOSE OF SCIENTOLOGY!

But, as you have not noted, or deny, or justify or are just plain oblivous to, that moral code has NEVER BEEN SENIOR TO, NEVER WILL BE SENIOR TO, AND ONLY EXISTS TO SERVE THE PURPOSE.

It is being used to stop you from being effective as Scientologists by David Miscavige. You are ‘using policy to stop’ resolution of Major Departures from the Ideal Scene. You are doing this by blindly following a moral code that has nothing to do with present time facts.

I understand you are loathe to commit overts with all that you know about them and case gain and doing what’s right and majorly because you embraced the aims and purposes of Scientology. I want you to consider that tape Moral Codes: What is a Withhold? I want you to consider that quote Luis Garcia gave the other day from 8-8008:”So long as he is fixed in a condition where he is in agreement with all spaces and viewpoints, he sees and feels automatically with all other such viewpoints. He is above the level of energy, if one can use the term, on the same wavelength with all other beingness, a condition which does not permit differentiation. As he rehabilitates his abilities in independent creation, he can change this “wavelength” at will, and can go into or out of agreement with all other points of beingness.”

You have agreed to the moral code, to the LRH policy that expresses it, to LRH policy. Above that, you have agreed to the purposes of Scientology. If, presently, that moral code is being perverted and used to corrupt that purpose then that moral code has become something else than it originally was, and what you agreed to uphold. You are acting on a code that is from some other time and situation. One that says ‘failing to kill’ is a transgression.

David Miscavige is using those original agreements and your honorable intentions to keep your word, to have you defend and protect him as he proceeds to destroy the Church and pervert the subjects. You are in the position of using LRH policy to stop the attainment of LRH purpose. THAT is exactly what DM wants and counts on – your own honor and keeping your word to LRH and your original agreements.

While you may be very, very ‘moral’ in this acting, what is missed is that you are very, very ‘out-ethics’. DM counts on that. He engenders it. He is calculatingly playing this dichotomy. You are losing in that game.

God help you, you ARE in Jonestown.
Centurion | November 18, 2010 at 6:38 pm |

Interesting comparison. Sad in many ways that there are so many similarities.

I remember once long ago, when food and drink used to be served at the Shrine after the events there. My 2D at the time was with me and we were in line to get some punch and snacks. As we got towards the punchbowl she joked about what flavor Koolaid would we be getting. I smiled and said that it was leftover from Jonestown.

I was new at the time, and thought nothing of my remark. It was just a simple joke. Funny how years later, when I recall that remark today, that I was amidst an environment closer to Jonestown that I would have ever imagined. Never in my thoughts would I EVER associate with Jonestown- like organizations.

And, there I was. In one. I got away from it relatively unharmed. I can sincerely appreciate those who didn’t .

Centurion
Ensifer | November 18, 2010 at 6:47 pm |

As impressive as the video is, in reality it’s little more than a logical fallacy to imply that because there are parallels between Jim Jone’s group and Miscavige’s inner circle that there will eventually be a similar mass suicide… unless it’s prevented.

You were there for two decades: would you have, at any point, committed suicide if so ordered? Would any of your co-workers? Would any of the regulars who reply here done so? If the answer is yes then there are personal issues that run deeper than belonging to a cult.

Jim Jones and his followers – those who went with him to Guyana – believed that they were “going somewhere after death”. To heaven, to sit at the feet of God. Where, in Scientology lore, is there a parallel that tells adherents that they will ascend to a heaven-like location once their work on Earth is done? It doesn’t exist and it erodes any similarities between the two groups in the sense that we should fear a mass Scientology suicide.

The brainwashing, blind obedience, sleep deprivation and demand for disconnection from people who would question the rationality of something as ignorant as being a Sea Org member is a common enough thing in the recorded history of mankind. Mass suicides like Jonestown are uncommon, rare, significant events that illuminate how insane “some” people can be when led by psychopaths. They are anomalies.

To me the more important issue – and one which might actually get some traction if sufficient evidence, documentation and witnesses were produced to sympathetic authorities – is the one Marc Headly mentioned on the video – Human Trafficking. Particularly the trafficking and enslavement of scores or even hundreds of children who did nothing to deserve their situation except be born to Sea Org parents.

David
martyrathbun09 | November 18, 2010 at 7:04 pm |

I’m not looking for traction Enisfer. But thanks all the same.
Sapere Aude | November 18, 2010 at 7:05 pm |

Jim;

Spot on! I can get the references later but the concepts are in one the fact that all policy should be interpreted for expansion. Current ethics policy, moral code, declare etc are all being interpreted and applied for shrinking and introversion and not expansion and extroversion.

The other is the HCOB about running 8c and control. LRH refers to the fact (can’t quote it right now as I don’t have it with me) that whatever controls your location in space takes control over you. As long as the current security scene in the SO runs such tight control of locating SO members bodies in space and time, causes a spill over effect that the control of their ability to think independently for themselves is overtaken by the forced enforcement by the group. Robotism has never resulted in higher ethical values or a very good causation to a pro survival product.

The admin scale has goals and purposes above policy. Applying data series and not A=A=A would show one the result that some current policy does not apply. Nobody in a current SO org would argue that we need addresso plates made for each new name to CF as that policy has been modified and updated to fit the current existent planet earth parameters of what will work. The basics of ethics do not change – the procedure from the group does evolve.

In the past I quote the policy wherein LRH says a group must be able to adapt to its environment and not make the environment adapt to it. The HCOPL is Standard Admin (there are 2 with this title but one is this reference.) It gives details about how the organization has to be able to adapt and modify to exist and function.

Those with the authority and cahones need to face the fact that Scientology as an applied technology in the church and its impact on the world is NOT expanding. Change is needed. Change will occur whether internally or enforced from the external field, governments etc – but change will occur.

The moral codes have ceased to protect the group but instead are being applied in a manner as to eat into the group in a cancerous fashion. Just as the basic intel/pr/legal of the GO has been shifted from a predominately external facing activity to an internal facing group members activity. The perversions of the tech we see the application of HCOB’s also used internally against the public for purposes other than increased spirital awareness and freedoms.

Shift happens and the change when it comes may be large and destructive but it will come. The more understanding of this and the more individuals take responsibility the more the damage is limited but I see NO way that this change will occur quietly, effectively and with little damage. This disorder will really blow off when the true order replaces it.
martyrathbun09 | November 18, 2010 at 7:07 pm |

Amen.
Impartial English Girl | November 18, 2010 at 7:20 pm |

Excellent post. The reason I started looking further into what Scientology has become is because I saw a documentary on the Peoples’ Temple and was struck by the parallels between Jones and Miscavige. The only difference I can see is that people today have the internet, Photoshop, better general technology, more disposable income and are more influenced by celebrity endorsement than was the case back in the 70s. I don’t know how ANYONE who has heard the infamous Jonestown ‘death tape’ * – in particular the small section where a mother is clearly killing her own children, while one of her youngsters screams and begs “Mommy, please don’t. Mommy, please don’t.” – can then fail to act on Miscavige. The similarities are too numerous and too clear to be labelled as mere unfortunate coincidence. There is a REAL chance that history could repeat itself – and, this time, we cannot say that we had no warning-signs.

I bet DM is laughing his pampered little head off as he reads these posts. I don’t care – he can laugh at me all he likes – at least I can sleep at night with a clear conscience.

I want to be a part of ending the madness – but where does one even start? It’s as at least as scary as it is tragic.

* = (the recording made by Jones/his flunkeys of the actual discussions prior to the suicides/murders and then the tragedy, as it happened, in its entirety).
IEG x
Ensifer | November 18, 2010 at 7:27 pm |

*I’m not looking for traction Enisfer.*

Ah, my misunderstanding. Consider my questions to be rhetorical then.
Jethro Bodine | November 18, 2010 at 7:30 pm |

Good video, though I think some of the footage is from the early 80s and that would be before there was a post of “COB RTC”, which is when things really went downhill.
Old school | November 18, 2010 at 7:38 pm |

I have from time to time thought of this possibility. I look at what the eventual end game is for DM. It WILL come to an end at some point if for no other reason that running out of parishioners to “donate” $ to keep the org afloat. THAT is the moment when something like this could happen. It is the moment DM sees that he either has to blow with the cash remaining or, end it and take as many “Martians/FBI people”* with him.

* – For non-Scientologists, this is in reference to a criminally insane person thinking that EVERYONE is evil and out to get him. It is contained in a Hubbard reference where he highlights that insanity.
Songbird | November 18, 2010 at 7:46 pm |

IF you believe that spiritual beings postulate their own realities, the astonishing number of untimely deaths (cancer related and otherwise) among upper level OT’s could be then considered a form of slow intensely painful suicide. Even medical doctors will tell you that ‘stress’ can make you ill enough to kill you. And of course, there are those OT’s who actually DID commit suicide like businessman (and Nancy Cartwright’s former boyfriend) Stephen Brackett. And don’t forget the murder/attempted suicide of long time OT Scientologist, Rex Fowler, who was actually auditing on OTVII. Well, the list goes on and on. I, myself, was driven to the brink of suicide by the squirrels at Flag who wear their out tech like a badge! So, to say “If the answer is yes then there are personal issues that run deeper than belonging to a cult.” is a cruel statement with little understanding of the limits of the spirit. In actual fact, witnesses have stated that the majority of people in Jonestown did NOT commit suicide willingly. They were forced to do so under gunpoint. They were MURDERED! They were MASSACRED! They were led down the primrose path of so-called spiritual enlightenment, sleep deprived, harassed, underfed and constantly manipulated. This is what is happening to my friends still in the C of $. And it is quite sad indeed to see their lives, their finances and their families torn apart. While you can’t kill a spiritual being, you sure can rip apart a thetan’s dynamics till suicide seems like the least painful option. Just ask Stephen Brackett and Rex Fowler. Thank God my name is not on the long list of untimely Scientology deaths and suicides. ML, Songbird
Carol | November 18, 2010 at 7:48 pm |

OMG, looks to me like DM and JJ are connected. To those of you still in and not looking wake up!
Tony DePhillips | November 18, 2010 at 7:49 pm |

While at Flag once I was being regged by someone named Rudy at Planetary Dissemination. While briefing me on how evil the Annons were, somewhere during the cycle he asked “Would you die for your religion?”, He also stated that if the Israel-Iran thing got out of control the Sea Org would be moving to South Africa where the radiation couldn’t get to them.
On the would I die question I answered that it would depend on the situation and kind of chuckled. In my mind I was thinking “WTF is this guy talking about?!”. I think his flow was that HE would die for his religion and if I wouldn’t then at least I could give a few measley thousands of dollars. So I think the group agreement runs deep within the cult of miss cabbage.

Scary parallels between the two groups.
Tory Christman | November 18, 2010 at 7:51 pm |

Thank you so much for posting this, Marty! For years, the media would ask me if I thought there was any resemblance to Jonestown. In my ignorance, I would say, “No way”.
Then Marc and Claire Headley left, and had me over to their house. I asked the same question (and for anyone lurking who is not familiar–they were both up at the Gold base, where the “church” of $cientology is run from ). They each said, without one second comm lag: “Absolutely!” Shocking to me—-but as I’ve witnessed the insanities of this organization, I can see it, totally.

For years I’ve posted at the end of my posts, to those still “in”:
“Bail while you still can~!!”
As years pass, I mean this with greater passion than the last.
If you are lurking, don’t wait—you already know how peer pressure works. Don’t wait for the final days: Just as *some* people from Jonestown made the right move, and got out—protect yourself, AND your loved ones, NOW.
Leap! And the Net will Appear~ ~
Old school | November 18, 2010 at 7:55 pm |

Ensifer, interesting viewpoint. However, I have a question for you; can you actually NAME another contemporary organization, that has paralleled the current CofM as to what’s going on inside?

I’ll wait for your response…
Rory Medford | November 18, 2010 at 8:02 pm |

Keep exposing, keep sharing EVERYDAY!!

Its working and its getting people both inside and outside to OPEN their eyes.

Thx for caring and sharing and showing ARC.

he current Gestapo SCN has so little ARC and friendliness its just a matter of time before all of the IDLE ORGS close down.
Watching Eyes | November 18, 2010 at 8:03 pm |

re the similarities between the People’s Temple and Scientology, you know the saying……… A Blind Man Could See It With His Cane.

Forget “think” it’s a cult, for anyone to not KNOW DM’s group is a cult, they’ve got to be totally brainwashed or on drugs.
Rory Medford | November 18, 2010 at 8:03 pm |

DM and JJ are very alike in so many ways its scary!
Jim Logan | November 18, 2010 at 8:12 pm |

Sapere Aude,
“I see NO way that this change will occur quietly, effectively and with little damage.”

Not as long as those who continue to support and keep an SP, David Miscavige, on post by mistakenly believing they are following LRH policy in doing so.

DM IS Suppressive and is counting on the staff, public and Sea Org member’s agreement with and use of the Code of Offenses and Penalties to keep himself from being viewed as such and protect his position. He is using the group’s moral code against the group.
Mat Pesch | November 18, 2010 at 8:18 pm |

I watched a documentary regarding Jonestown that included interviews with 3 people who had escaped through the jungle the morning of the mass suicide. These people brought up an interesting point. All the members didn’t just happily line up with their kids to drink the Koolaid.
The more hardcore members enforced the mass suicide under gun point.

Sea Org staff (especially at the Hemet compound) have been conditioned
to accept all kinds of forms of insanity. That includes imprisionment of its “leaders”, beatings, family seperation, various forms of mental and physical tourture, destruction of its own structure, etc. When viewed from the outside this sustained behavior boggles the mind.
When LRH died its members were told that he intentionally “dropped his body” (suicide) in order to reach higher spiritual levels that were fully written up and would eventually be available for all members. This announcement was met with a standing ovation.
Don’t underestimate the insane actions a cult like this is capable of. It has already gone FAR beyond our earlier imagination.
Phil | November 18, 2010 at 8:50 pm |

“He is using the group’s moral code against the group.”
Excellent
DFB aka Dfb99 | November 18, 2010 at 8:59 pm |

Respectfully, I’m not sure what to think of this one.
Sure, theres some similarities but also, the piece was made to create the idea of a similarity in the viewers mind. For some reason that just triggers a red flag if I am looking at data being presented in that way.
DFB aka Dfb99 | November 18, 2010 at 9:13 pm |

Or I should say, that is just not a way I get my information.
Information presented that way relies on a reactive response from the viewer. It intends to create the impression that A is the same as B and that the viewer should assign all the negative feelings and thoughts they have about A to B as well. It’s like comparing someone to Hitler. “Oh yeah, Hitler was bad….Obama must be bad then.”
I feel I can look at Scientlogy and Jim Jones as seperate things.

I dont need to get the idea that Scientology=Jonestown to know that Scientology needs some fixin.
idle org | November 18, 2010 at 9:17 pm |

I can’t wait to see Miscavige featured on the show American Greed.

Oh, it’s comin’…. just you wait.
Martin | November 18, 2010 at 9:20 pm |

You’re a good man Samuel. I agree we all need to up what we do.
Oldfox | November 18, 2010 at 9:28 pm |

Oh My God!!!This video of the comparison of People’s Temple and the current Church of $ leaves me with the impression of members who are in the state of ” the enforced beingness of a happy slave” at best.
This looks more to me like they are now the instrument of that target which they thought they were intending to eradicate .
Let me see where this lies umm… yes worshipping bodies and approval from bodies or DM will punish your body.
Maxim | November 18, 2010 at 9:30 pm |

A Jim Jones anecdote.

In the 70s while visiting my parent’s home in Ukiah just a few miles from Jim Jones People’s Temple in Redwood Valley two women came to the door with cake in hand to present to my father who as a doctor had treated many members of Jones’ congregation. They praised my father who was not one to turn folks away because of their finances…. he was in many ways a classic country doctor. They also praised Jones fawningly for his careful stewardship of church finances citing a story of how he had driven around the streets of San Francisco for an hour to find a parking place rather than spend the money to park in a parking garage.
——-
I’ve been following the release of Burma pro-democracy leader Aung San Suu Kyi… in jail or under house arrest for 15 of the last 20 years. Someone could probably do a comparative study of Burmese politics and the C of S. Suu Kyi stands as a role model of grace, poise and presence no matter the circumstance. After my first glance on youtube I fell in love with her.
Karen B | November 18, 2010 at 9:32 pm |

Spot on, Jim.

“In other words, is the Church you agreed to, the Church that presently exists? Is it the Church envisioned by LRH as expressed in Policy or is it one envisioned by David Miscavige and his ‘policy’?

Is DM enforcing a moral code that once led to the reality of the Church LRH policy puts there but now is used to police behavior to align with supporting a corrupted vision of the reality of the Church? Are you enforcing a moral code on yourself that no longer aligns with the purpose you agreed to and is in conflict with that purpose at this point?”

I think this is a great question to ask yourself if you have allowed yourself to be aware enough to have doubt or concerned about the direction the church is going in.

LRH also talks about societies getting in trouble because they still operate on outmoded moral codes. At one time the church’s moral code did align with its purposes but since it has been corrupted, it really is outmoded. Specifically disconnection, limiting communication so as to prevent enturbulation, the justice system as a whole (look at all the people who did try to use Scientology lines to handle and got killed for it), etc.

Another key point, “You are in the position of using LRH policy to stop the attainment of LRH purpose. THAT is exactly what DM wants and counts on – your own honor and keeping your word to LRH and your original agreements. ”

Remember, PURPOSE IS SENIOR TO POLICY.

DM is an enemy to LRH, that has been addressed again and again. Ultimately, the choice is yours on who you support or don’t support just as much as it is mine when I decide to speak out. My purpose is simple. I think the tech works when applied the way LRH instructed. DM is doing everything in his power to destroy it and anyone who supports it. I can’t let that happen.
Ensifer | November 18, 2010 at 9:37 pm |

@Old School

If you Google “contemporary cults” you’ll get a list as long as your arm. The tactics of sleep deprivation, restricted communication and intensive physical duress are common practice in any group that employs what we define as brainwashing. The LDS church is a fine example of a sect (cult?) that grew out of those techniques and morphed into a more acceptable group. Fundamentalist Islam has many sects that use the tactics and, like the Sea Org, start their children on the program almost as soon as they can walk and talk. Some branches of the military (both USA and others) use the tactics to properly program their warriors.

The intent of my response isn’t to be argumentative. But when a parallel is drawn between one of the more horrific examples and modern day Scn and used to imply that many of our friends and family might suffer a similar fate then I think the argument loses touch with reality. My brother, his adult children and now their children are all active, committed Scn Cult members and I see none of the signs in any of them that would indicate they would willingly suicide if Miscavige directed them to do so.

The history of Sea Org abuse goes back the the very beginning of the Sea Org and was being used when I was paying public on the RSM 42 years ago. That’s a long time… so long in fact that I propose that if it was going to happen, it already would have. So how about instead of raising the specter of Jim Jones and implying Scn is headed there, the focus be oriented to freeing the children of the cultists from the cult and bringing the criminals to justice?
Karen B | November 18, 2010 at 9:38 pm |

Excellent comment!
Karen B | November 18, 2010 at 9:55 pm |

I tried watching your video but the link wouldn’t go through.
Erwin Croughs | November 18, 2010 at 9:55 pm |

For sure, Davey loves super dupper hyperdrive over the edge events too much to forgo. Germany killed itself for the Holy Fuhrer, Japan killed itself for the Great Emperor and Cool aiders will do anything for Sipper Power or Royal OT99.
martyrathbun09 | November 18, 2010 at 10:15 pm |

Your comm is a great study for any Data Series student. It is so full of mis-identification and mis-association it is not worth breaking down. If it weren’t such a 1.1 attempt to invalidate a lot of courageous people who took risks to help others I wouldn’t even bother commenting.
Martin | November 18, 2010 at 10:16 pm |

Try …
martyrathbun09 | November 18, 2010 at 10:24 pm |

Martin those links are bad. THey keep kicking out off this site.
Martin | November 18, 2010 at 10:33 pm |

Hm strange. Well just google jonestown documentary, you’ll easily find it
aotc | November 18, 2010 at 10:35 pm |

Agreed Martin. I chanced on a Jonestown doc on Discovery one night and my jaw dropped as I saw the number of similarities. Sobering indeed.
Jim Logan | November 18, 2010 at 10:45 pm |

dfb,
You’d have to be in certain places, like Int, or the other Sea Org bases, to get a good grasp of the similarity between Jonestown and David Miscavige’s CofS.

Your average org, or a public, has still some freedom of motion. You aren’t part of the group bashings that go on in Hemet, nor the lockdown of the RPF, or the introversion of a squirrel sec check or ethics interview at Flag or the isolation of the Freewinds.

I doubt very much that the reality of those stuck in this scene would even allow such a comparison as the video portrays – it’s just too ‘out there’. However, in the face of the horrific descriptions of what has permeated the base and spread to the outer reaches, even trickled down in attitude to the smallest locales, I think it’s time to reevaluate just how far ‘out there’ DM has taken this.
Ensifer | November 18, 2010 at 11:17 pm |

Well okay, I appreciate that you don’t moderate comments that aren’t in step with your personal view.
OnceUponaTime | November 18, 2010 at 11:23 pm |

I’ve been examining overts and came to realize the importance of the concept that beings are basically good. Thetans really are basically good. It’s that truth that makes overts so destructive to the case. If we were not good, then overts would be meaningless.

Thetans are not a threat to one another. We really enjoy one another as thetans.

But this world has been designed to seem dangerous. The innate rightness/goodness of a being got alter-ised into “being right” which is the root of Ser Facs and overts and justification–survival and domination and make-wrong. Without this sense of “being right” we would simply observe and understand and correct.

The entirety of the problem of this universe might well solve from recognizing the rightness/goodness of a spiritual being. And using that ideal scene to eliminate outpoints.

DM’s church is a hornet’s nest of outpoints which deviate from that simple ideal scene: the recognition of the rightness/goodness of a being.

Auditing works best when recognizing the rightness/goodness of the pc. And auditing other dynamics would rely on the same principle.

Evil attempts to manipulate the basic goodness of a being to perpetrate harm on others.

Michael
Jane | November 18, 2010 at 11:26 pm |

Very thought-provoking video Marty. Since Garcia’s letter I’ve been thinking….I understand that a lot of young Eastern Europeans are now at Saint Hill, and that they are senior to many long-serving British members. Combined with the SP declare list from Saint Hill, I was wondering if anyone else has noticed this and if there’s a pattern.
Old school | November 18, 2010 at 11:56 pm |

Ensifer, as I thought. Nothing but an EXTREMELY long comm lag (you haven’t answered the question yet) All on this board who are trained know what that means.
RJ | November 19, 2010 at 12:03 am |

I remember sleep deprivation hitting us non-SO back in the late ’80’s just after Ivan left and just before Ken Rose joined the “dark side”.

We started having these “Tech Conferences” that would go way past the witching hour!

Both SO and Non-SO agreed the concept was f*ckin’ insane since they left us totally unsessionable for cramming the next day!

(Hmmmmm…

Maybe that was the idea behind it.)

Any way later I went to the “Mecca of Technical Deception” and found out the situation was even worse!

Anyone who didn’t get at least 5 hours in the chair was shipped off to the Sand Castle for all night f*ckin’ renos!

One day I had a bad day in session so I ended up with less than my proscribed 5 hours because I was in cramming the whole day and the D of P said to me “I guess you’re going to going to the Sand Castle.”

(Like I was going to Disney Land or something.

Yoo Hoo!

Lucky me!

Whatever!)

I told him he could kiss my ass

( I’m so incorrigible 🙂 )

and wrote out a nice long ‘Orders Query’ and filed it in the student rabble rouse since I was an intern and caught the last bus to the Hacienda.

I don’t know if you remember this Marty but the next day half of CMOI was at Flag putting the course and interne schedule in!

So even back then there were various efforts to run some kind of slave camp but in the main if someone stood on policy an screamed like hell.

They did back off somewhat.

From my observations after they removed all us dispicable trouble makers the Non-SO from SO operations the abuses continued unabated now because “tough dedicated” SO members couldn’t say “no” or were afraid of being nailed for “back flash”.
atcause | November 19, 2010 at 12:08 am |

I don’t think the idea was to infer that Miscavige’s inner circle are all going to commit suicide. I don’t think it will come to that.

The idea is to show the parallels between the two groups as an indication of the health status of Miscavige’s inner circle by using Jim Jone’s group as a watermark.

One group, that was obviously led by a man with serious case issues ( abberated ) and the other led by David Miscavige.

The more parallels between a group and Jim Jone’s group, the worst off that group must be in.

Even though mass suicide is unlikely to occur in Miscavige’s inner circle, it shows the condition that Miscavige’s inner circle is in because of all the parallels of his inner group and a group that did end up committing mass suicide. ( or mass murder, depending on how you look at it )
loki | November 19, 2010 at 12:08 am |

Marty, one does not have to be a data series student to see that ensifers eyes are wide shut.
He acknowledges the parellels but dismisses the possibility that the result could be the same.
He knows scientologists who would never consider or commit suicide. Thats good news for them. There were peoples temple members who also would never consider or commit suicide. Obviously those are not the ones whose lives were or are on the line.
Hopefully no one looses their life. But I found the parellels chilling. Truely.
Freedom Fighter | November 19, 2010 at 12:25 am |

You know, we joke around about the “Kool-aid drinkers”, but boy, the parallels illustrated in this video (I’ve also seen the full documentary on Jonestown) and in the stories told on this blog and others is rather unnerving. I needed to take a walk after watching this.

Just look at what happens when someone tries to leave the C of M: threats of disconnection by family and “friends”, Third Party campaigns against those who speak out or leave, the twisting of truth in all directions.

THIS IS NOT LRH!! TIME TO WAKE UP!!
RJ | November 19, 2010 at 12:34 am |

Mat,

I hate to break the party up here.

But there is also evidence that many of the Jones Town members were murdered as well as suicided.

http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/AboutJonestown/JonestownReport/Volume8/forumCarter.htm

This is confirmed by eye witness reports of people who were there and one of the best books on the whole affair is probably Mark Lane’s ‘Strongest Poison’.

Personally I’m not into hitching a ride on the most convenient explanation that serves the most rabbidly “Anti-cult” agenda.

I suggest you read the following article:

http://gbppr.dyndns.org/mil/mindcontrol/mn/mn1-98.txt

Also this is not the way to promote greater religious tolerance.

I agree with Ensifer that all great religious movements at one time or other were considered “cults”.

Please do not stoop to the same level of our enemies by creating some false dialectic or GPM!

Also there is a major difference between dropping the body because the body no longer serves its purpose and committing suicide.

Ron was 74 years old for christ sakes.

Not some spring chicken in the prime of life and it was pretty obvious to me after listening to RJ 39 that the Ol’ man was ready to slip his mortal coil.

We didn’t need some snot nosed kid to tell us how or why it happened.

He said it almost happened when he was researching OT III!

I thought as Scientologists we’d be the last to not grok that concept.
Tara | November 19, 2010 at 12:40 am |

Sapere A~
“The perversions of the tech we see, the application of HCOBs also used internally against the public for purposes other than increased spiritual awareness and freedoms.”
That sums it up completely for me.
Tony DePhillips | November 19, 2010 at 12:49 am |

Nice. She is very theta.
Redneck Janette From Detriot | November 19, 2010 at 12:53 am |

This is a very chilling video, the similarities are very obvious to anyone who knows anything about how Scientology has been run the last 15 or 20 years.
I only wish more Scientologists would look at videos like this… they would have their big OMG moments just as we all did!
Floating Needle | November 19, 2010 at 12:56 am |

“that we should fear a mass Scientology suicide.”

I agree, but the point should be made that many individuals have committed suicide because of their involvement with COS and getting into debt and other problems that became to big for them too confront.

Also, it shows how we as Scientologists can sometimes mistakenly take a datum and make it own without inspection. As in “wogs,” and are KNOWN superiority over them.

Most Scieintologists feel they are “in the know” without knowing what they think they know.

But there is a feeling of superiority over “wogs” with no demonstrable proof that any such superiority exists. For the People’s Temple it was a “euphoric feeling.”

For Scientologists, it’s a feeling of superiority because we “know that we don’t know.”

But we do know how to know, unfortunately, we normally don’t use that know-how to self-inspect our own group.
Tara | November 19, 2010 at 1:01 am |

Songbird~I watched an in-depth Jonestown program with audio of many people speaking out against drinking the koolaid and actor portrayals of dissenters based on survivor reports. Every child there was murdered.
It wasn’t about “suicide” but about the leader of this group manipulating people to such a point as he could convince enough of them to kill themselves AND murder others.
It’s about the degradation his followers allowed themselves to be subject to, what levels they stoop to in hurting themselves and others in his cause.
It is about a registrar who maxes out your last credit card when you’re already in debt you can’t pay and you’re stressed out of your mind because you want to finish your course, but you need to spend time cooking dinner or helping your kid with homework since he’s making poor grades…but your church is being attacked by rabid dogs and how can you bare not helping?
Who/what do you neglect to resolve just one of these issues?
Christie | November 19, 2010 at 1:01 am |

Nobody said that Jonestown was identical. The point is that the scenarios are similar – very similar. When you have parents that will forsake their children because the child disagrees with the leader of a church, and refuse to have any communication with their children, you are talking about a pretty sick cult. My mother said the following “I don’t want to disconnect from you. But if they tell me that I have to, then I will.” This sounds like a kool-aide drinking statement if I ever heard one. There is no self determinism left in such a person. It’s just “follow the rules or else” and that’s where the similarities are sickening.
Brett | November 19, 2010 at 1:06 am |

Ha! I remember Rudy from Plantary Dissem! He got a $500 dono out of me once towards a meter I never got!!!! AARRHHHGGGGG!
DFB aka Dfb99 | November 19, 2010 at 1:08 am |

I dont know what it is about sleep. I was in the OOT training program at Flag and I stayed at the LA base for a while too (I was the DSA for my org and did some hatting/training there) I think I got a small taste of the Sea Org life. Thats one part of the video that is similar to the cultish Jim Jones thing. Theres something about sleep deprivation, food control, thought control, etc. Theres a lot of stuff in Scientology that is cultish in a bad way and I dont think it came from LRH.

I dont think he’s going to get all the Int base in a room and have them drink koolaid though.
In the end he will probably just disappear or something and everyone will slowly trickle out of the gates or something, I dont know. It depends on what happens leading up to it, but I dont think it will be a “Jonestown”. Maybe for Miscavige. Maybe he’ll put something in his scotch and lay down for one last tan in the tanning bed.
RJ | November 19, 2010 at 1:10 am |

AC,

I don’t mind a little “Scare Heading” here and there but I object to hitching a ride on someone else’s agenda.

Like the old CAN crowd and their Mk Ulltra Alumni backers.

Gee I know its a tough choice between Jolly and Spawn of Satan.

Which is the lesser of the two evils?

Well in my opinion anything that causes some stupid brain dead politician to write more useless and repressive legislation to protect us from ourselves is the greater evil.
Brett | November 19, 2010 at 1:15 am |

Well put Christie!
Tara | November 19, 2010 at 1:29 am |

Agreed…very theta.
Karen#1 | November 19, 2010 at 1:29 am |

WH
Good post. It is good that Marty posted this video.

+++++There is no ethics change in David Miscavige.
+++++In spite of thousands upon thousands of whistle blowing accounts all over the Web ~~going back to John Peeler’s (Former GOLD MAA) accounts of atrocities at INT BASE published on the Internet 10 years ago ~~
+++++In spite of Marc Headley’s detailed accounts of the brutality and atrocities for several years and his published book “Blown for Good”
which was never challenged or sued for libel….
+++++In spite of Amy Scobee’s book “Abuse at the Top” detailing unconscionable conduct which was never challenged or sued for libel….
+++++In spite of “Int Base Musical Chairs” (google these words) being the single most viewed thread of all time, with over 100,000 hits =OCMB combined with ESMB, WWP and other repeat blogs..
+++++ In spite of CNN calling it “Scientology ~~ A Culture of Violence”
+++++In spite of the media and the public AGHAST at the inner shenanigans, the raping of Parishioner funds, the splitting up families, the violence within…

SP Hole still exists with the prisoners within !!!!!!!!!!!

What advice is DM getting from all the Lawyers ?
Does he really think he is above the LAW ?
Does he really think he will continue to get away with this conduct ?
Ensifer | November 19, 2010 at 1:34 am |

@Old School

Yikes! Long comm lag?

I did answer your question but I understood that Marty is annoyed when people use his blog to post links and other items that distract from his message. That’s why I answered it with a suggestion for a Google search.

*All on this board who are trained know what that means.*

Fair enough. One other post suggests that Marty didn’t mean his article to imply that there would actually be a Scientology version of Jonestown. That’s a good point and it might even be accurate. My contribution (or 1.1 comment, if you prefer) to the subject is that a parallel isn’t reliable when determining causation. And Jonestown is a horrific example of what can happen if all the right things are in play. Using horror (even if you don’t want to infer it might happen) to illustrate your point delivers the message in an emotional fashion that I believe causes “civilians” to distrust the entire message.

I could be wrong. That’s okay too.
Fellow Traveller | November 19, 2010 at 1:54 am |

Speaking of statements attesting to kool-aide consumption:
“I know it is not right. But I have to.”

Bruce Pratt
Rory Medford | November 19, 2010 at 1:56 am |

Show this video far and wide and let people know what the SO members are subjected to.
Valkov | November 19, 2010 at 2:13 am |

Centurion,

And yet, something within you knew.

If we could just learn to listen better to that “still, small voice”… and trust it more….
Karen#1 | November 19, 2010 at 2:19 am |

Ooooooops
Omitted to add

++++++In spite of Jeff Hawkin’s book “Counterfeit Dreams” where DM’s thuggery and violence and SLEEP DEPRIVATION and other drachonian punishments are clearly articulated~~
which book also was never challenged or sued for libel….

Of course, David Miscavige wouldn’t allow himself to be put under deposition……..
Anonymous SF | November 19, 2010 at 2:28 am |

I remember my late father teaching me about the similarity between the peoples temple and scientology when I was a kid.
Grasshopper | November 19, 2010 at 2:30 am |

Well. Here’s my take.

Scientology is not The People’s Temple nor Heaven’s Gate. Could a collective suicide happen? Perhaps, but so could a lot of other things.

I can barely imagine a circumstance where a group of Scientologists commit mass suicide. Even at my most dedicated, I would never have committed suicide. You will notice that these suicides are sold as a way to the next thing. Heaven’s Gate’s suicides were a ticket to the stars behind Hale-Bopp. Jim Jones’s suicides were a ticket to a new plane, or something.

Murder and suicide are so contrary to the core of what Scientology is that it would be a complete reversal of the subject for it to happen.

People in Scientology do not commit suicide, normally. I know of very few suicides, and I would hazard a guess that the suicide rate per 100,000 Scientologists is probably well below that of the general population.

Scientologists do not commit suicide, they commit their lives. They commit their existence. As so many noted here, and as I have done so myself, they work insane hours, they take insane abuse and crap, they pay insane fees, they borrow insane amounts of money, all to be involved in Scientology.

They end up burning up their lives for Scientology. It is not easy to be a Scientologist. I personally do not regret anything at all about my involvement as a Scientologist, and in fact, I am very glad I know and can apply Scientology. But I do not deny I dedicated a lot of my life to it and put up with a lot.

But that having been said, here is where I could see it happening:

Mr. David Miscavige stands in front of the Shrine Auditorium and says:

“This is an incredible announcement, and you are hearing it here first.

[Baited breath!]

“This planet is in the hands of our Ideal Orgs. [Standing O!] It is safe now. Thanks to the Golden Age of Knowledge, the legacy of the tech is now preserved for eternity! [Standing O!]

“The work is complete, and, yes, Earth is SAFE! [Standing O!]

“So, what do we do now? [Pregnant pause. Murmurs] Well, LRH never meant Scientology to be an Earth-only game. [Buzzing! Hmm! What can he mean???]

“NOW is the time for us all to move to Target II! [Wild applause! Standing O! Three Cheers!]

“Only the most elite team can come with us. You, here, have proven to be the most dedicated Scientologists on this planet. Yes, you can HELP! [Standing O!] So, TONIGHT ONLY, join the friends in the back, give the IAS your Power of Attorney, and pick up your “Patron Galacticus” Pin and “I’m DOING SOMETHING about this UNIVERSE” smock, and join us on this incredibly important, never to be repeated, straight up and vertical ride to Target II!”

He could go on about how we are going to meet up with LRH, and that this is the opportunity for the truly dedicated to help out in an incredibly meaningful way. After all, we are OTs, not bodies, and where we are going bodies are a hinderance.

That, possibly, could happen, but I doubt it. Even the way things are now. If it did happen, I would see it happening on the base, with the target II travelers being SO members. It could only happen because true Scientology has been gone for years. I sincerely hope that does not happen, and I know that the work we do to shed light on the craziness of DM’s mob will help avoid it.
metaqual | November 19, 2010 at 2:41 am |

Excellent job on pointing out parallels of a destructive cult. I find it ironic that none of the interviews (and I’ve seen farm more than what is shown here) ever mention CIA mind control or anything even close. It has since been substantiated that Jones was a mind control dup. Mark Lane was the lawyer of the People’s Temple and is one of the most notoriously accused double agents of all time, also being a point man for JFK assassination theories. My point here is: if Jones was mind controlled dup, why not DM? Two very different personalities and two very different religions. In both cases, those interviewed do not “see” the mind control manipulation behind the scenes. True to form occultism is exactly that: it remains hidden.
From one point of view, there is nothing more the enemies of Scientology would like: a mass suicide like People’s Temple. There are already many deaths/suicides that have been attributed to Scientology. I should add here though that according to my understanding of Scientology as it was presented to me in tapes, books, etc., Scientology does not really have the power to cause death/suicides. It is like saying the Bible or the book “Moby Dick” causes deaths. It is just paper or magnetic tape, etc. It is people who react and do stupid things that causes deaths, etc. That being said, even though many public people consider Scientology does cause deaths, no one seems to care significantly. Its just entheta.
If anyone needs cramming, I’d like to refer them to “One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest”. The Indian wins in the end when he blows the nut house and escapes. They had lots of “tech” in that institution too but it was not very helpful. Maybe Tom Cruise can reprise the role of Randall P. McMurphy.
RJ | November 19, 2010 at 2:58 am |

I agree MQ,

One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest should be recommended reading for anyone Ken Kesey wrote it after being sujected to Mk Ultra.
RJ | November 19, 2010 at 3:06 am |

GH,

Funny thing was I was at an event where Spawn of Satan said almost word for word what you wrote and my cynicism getting the better of me.

I mean this dip shit is telling me that the planet is Cleared and that we’re ready to move on to target II!

Yeah right.

What the f*ck planet does he live on?
lunamoth | November 19, 2010 at 3:14 am |

Several years ago, after OT VIII came out the first time, a good friend’s husband was one of the first several to do the level. When he returned home, his wife (my friend) told me in hushed tones that he had been given the choice of staying in this game and continuing to help his wife and friends up the bridge, pushing the forward progress of scientology, or going on to Target II. I was dumbfounded at the time at what this sounded like to me – someone expected that he might choose to drop the body, as this is the currently only way I know of to “to go on to Target II.” I heard the same thing again, a while later, about another friend who’d done VIII. I have never heard this again, since. Has any one else heard or been told this? Because this was the first thing that came to mind when looking at the possibility of such a thing as mass suicide occurring under miscavige’s
control.
lucy | November 19, 2010 at 3:23 am |

Do you think the all of Jim Jone’s followers thought Suicide or Murder were part of the bible’s teaching? No, that is the whole psychological mind control that happened. You think you are following the bible, the tech, and you start to believe that this one leader, this one person is going to lead you to salvation and freedom, whether it is Jim Jones or Dave Miscaviage its all the same. The majority of the parishioners of People’s temple didn’t know they were about to die. They were being sold “kool-aid”, not death. So yes I would agree with you that Scientology parishoners, staff and sea org members would not agree to suicide, but the very point is mind control and how one leader can have such a profound effect upon you, even in the gravest circumstances.
lucy | November 19, 2010 at 3:25 am |

stay on topic, or get off the blog!
LDW | November 19, 2010 at 3:49 am |

The following is purely my opinion based on my own experience in living life, auditing pcs and auditing myself thru Solo Nots.
1. Man is basically good.
2. The hardest confront is the confront of a raw, unbridled, evil being or action.
3. A thetan cannot be implanted unless they initially agree to be implanted.
4. Most implants, where successful, con the thetan into believing the implant is somehow for the greater good.
5. The being occupying the body of David Miscavige IS an implanter. He probably has been in the valence of an implanter for a very long time.
6. The individuals around Miscavige have become the implanters as well as the implanted.
7. When their evil dramitization is forced to stop, they are quite likely capable of ANYTHING.
8. Anyone who can’t see that, has a low confront of evil and might do well to get some auditing on the FPRD, or Ex DN, or NOTs.
9. Part of MY responsibility is to end the cycle of GPM for the individuals in my care. This desensitizes past implants and eventually nullifies them. All proper auditing does this.
10. Exposing the actual crimes of actual criminals is a vital action on the 4th dynamic to desensitize prior implants. Marty is doing a superb job of exposing such.
11. Jim Jones is a punk compared to Miscavige when it comes to implant technology.
martyrathbun09 | November 19, 2010 at 4:05 am |

POST OF THE DAY, HANDS DOWN. THANK YOU.
Jethro Bodine | November 19, 2010 at 4:09 am |

After letting the video sink in and reading some of the comments on this board, I think it’s fair to say that the Int Base is quite similar to Jonestown, but I don’t think a mass suicide would ever occur in Scientology as a whole. It’s not a black-and-white situation in that the Int Base is definitely a cult; however, the Scientology world outside of the Int Base becomes less of a cult the futher you go down the org board/command channels. I think the average public Scientologist experiences some cult-like things such as financial abuse, disconnection and squirrel ethics handlings, but has never seen or experienced the more hardcore cult abuses such as sleep deprivation, food deprivation, physical assualts, false imprisonment, “the Hole”, mental torture, lack of medical care, lack of high school education for SO children (not too surprising since Miscavige himself is a high school drop out), slave labor, child labor, coerced abortions, etc. that occur as a staff member.
Redneck Janette From Detriot | November 19, 2010 at 4:12 am |

Very much agree with you Christie… it’s very sickening to watch grown men and women in addition to children disconnect from people they have known their entire life. They really can not or will not look at the situation from any other viewpoint at this time and so just dismisses their family or friends as if they were nothing, and with no explanation most times. It’s an unbelievable thing to sit back and watch… all my 20 years in Scientology, or shall I say my being in the community of Scientology and considered one but never really adhered to all the bullshit, I never was in a position to have to decide to disconnect from anyone… until a few years ago, which is what got me really looking at what was happening. It just didn’t feel right, added to a whole lot of other situations that didn’t feel right with regards to Scn. We all See it when we are ready to see it or when we’ve had enough… our loved ones will around…it’s only a matter of time…
Mockingbird6 | November 19, 2010 at 4:19 am |

I am glad my children are now out of the Sea Org and I feel compassion for those whose children are still in.

Has anyone yet mentioned the data about the CIA “assisting” the Jonestown people to their final end? If that were true, Scientology could be just as vulnerable.
Jeff | November 19, 2010 at 4:22 am |

“It has since been substantiated that Jones was a mind control dup. ”
Substantiated by who? Where?
theoracle | November 19, 2010 at 4:33 am |

Interesting LDW. You are obviously intelligent. I have not audited myself through solo nots yet. But this is my opinion based on my experience.
1. I agree people are basically good.
2. I don’t think evil is the hardest thing to confront. Our entire judicial system revolves around people profiting off of crime. I think the hardest thing to confront is stupidity. I would rather live with someone evil any day of the week than someone stupid. Since man is basically good, you can bring that good out of an evil person and they can snap out of evil. You look at the OT8’s and staff and others sitting around the CofS watching the whole thing melt down and hanging onto their P.R. or status and you can see what a horrible issue stupidity is to handle.
3. and 4. Anthying a person depends upon he becomes the effect of. We do become dependent on case and all manner of tools and only then do we become the effect of it.
5. I just think DM is one of the stupid people.
6. The people around Miscavige are not too bright either
7. I think they are only capable of following orders.
8. I would not cast such a declare blindly.
9. My responsibility in this game is to win, with friends to celebtrate with.
10. Marty made this into a game. Before that it was one big failed effort went wrong because handleing it seemed very unlikely.
11. Jim Jones preyed on needy people. I see very much similarity between the two. And their power cracks as does the need. The staff are still at INT because they have become dependent on DM and therefore the effect of him. Just like a person does with case. This is what happened with Jim Jones as well.

Nice to chat with a thinking person and exchange views.
Karen#1 | November 19, 2010 at 4:55 am |

The Oracle.
Your points well taken.
However, DM is nobody’s fool. Do not agree that he is STUPID.
He has held power for 25+ years.
Stupidity does not go hand in hand with that.
Now Larry Brennan a former CO OSA INT had this to say ~~
(It is possible some of this is a little outdated, but the gist of what he has to say portrays clever planning, clever calculation, clever pre-meditation.)
DM also has an unlimted budget for lawyers
Quoting Larry Brennan :::::::
In early November 1981 I sat in a room with David Miscavige presenting to him the planning for a major corporate reorganization of organized scientology. As part of that, I was explaining to him the difference between corporate authority and ecclesiastical authority.

He never, ever got it and to this day does not get it.

After spending millions of dollars on the new corporate planning for organized scientology, it only took Miscavige the first full year of its implementation (1982) to make the corporate integrity of organized scientology (as bad as it was before) even worse than before as he assumed complete dictatorial control of people and the main assets of organized scientology.

They have no idea what they are talking about as they try to position Miscavige in their own confused minds as someone not being legally responsible for the abuses he sees carried out throughout organized scientology simply because they call him an “ecclesiastical authority”.

FWIW, here is a part of a posting I just recently made on the private XSO site to fellow Ex Sea Org members in responding to someone who was afraid they might doctor corporate minutes:

/start of quote/

“The problem with “doctoring documents” in organized scientology is that most of the documents are already “doctored”. Basically all that is corporate organized scientology is a massive set of “doctored documents” to cover up the fact that it is in effect one huge body run and controlled by David Miscavige, sometimes through other parts of the Sea Org.

All the corporate minutes, articles, by-laws, contracts, trust documents, etc., etc. exist to create a phony paper trail to try to make it appear that the above is not true and to spread the assets out so that most are beyond the reach of any “enemies” who might sue or take other legal action.

Example, look at hundreds of legal documents re the separation of CST, RTC, CSI, Author Services, the pubs orgs, etc. Look at all the “top echelons” just within CSI like WDC, CMO Int, the ED Int’s office, etc. Now, anyone want to guess who controls them all with an iron fist despite all the corporate and other paper trails?

David Miscavige is too out of control, too immature, too psycho and even too stupid to understand that every beating he has done, every person he took off post and every thing he then ran was another piece of evidence proving he controls it all despite the paper trails that imply otherwise.

Now anyone want to guess how they lie about it all (such as the affidavits of the SP Hall inmates to the SP Times about how wonderful DM is and how he does not run everything)?

Do you know that Miscavige has forced such false affidavits from some of them years before to help protect himself from legal liability for his own actions and to throw them in front of the bus to save himself? Yep, such things as ED Int from the 90s saying how he really controlled everything in CSI fully and David Miscavige had no say, etc. That affidavit even used the “sad victim card” they like to play like how hurt ED Int was that anyone could imply he was not fully in control or slur the name of David Miscavige who was a great, religious and peaceful man. Gawd that sickens me but they do it constantly to cover up their many lies.

I feel sorry for many of those held at Int who are lying now to protect the coward Miscavige. But in my opinion they are meeting karma now for doing so and it will get worse for them until they get themselves out of there and find it within themselves to deal with this.

For Miscavige however, I suspect that Karma is coming in a big way and he hasn’t seen anything yet compared to what is ahead that will be exposing his lies and abuses.
####################

Okay, The Oracle, Larry Brennan also uses the word “Stupid.”
Just Me | November 19, 2010 at 5:09 am |

Seriously? That’s the rule? Well, I flunk!
JM
LDW | November 19, 2010 at 5:23 am |

Silly rabbit. At the very core of stupidity is an evil purpose to be stupid.
See #8
Just Me | November 19, 2010 at 5:24 am |

LDW, that was GREAT! The big picture blows down the TA big-time!
Just Me
OTDT | November 19, 2010 at 5:34 am |

Jane,
I think you make a very good point here. I myself have noticed this influx of young, ignorant, poorly trained recruits being brought in, especially at Flag. To suddenly find myself being confronted by a semi-literate 16 year old Guatemalan MAA with a sneering arrogant attitude, treating me as if I was a low life scum…well, I get your point totally and it’s definitely not off-topic.

One of the parallels between Jim Jone’s group and the now broken C of S is ignorance, stupidity and arrogance on the part of its staff and group members. Not only do the new recruits fit this description, but the Old Guard seems to have gotten stupid and arrogant, too. Just looking at how stupid Guillame Leserve came across on AC 360, holy crap. He used to seem smart. Now look at him.

By the way, I have nothing against Eastern Europeans, Guatemalans or any other country or culture, but I do have something against arrogance, stupidity and ignorance and brainwashing, no matter what country they’re from.
OTDT | November 19, 2010 at 5:42 am |

Jane,
Good point you make. Over the last 15 years or so, I’ve witnessed the influx of new recruits at Flag who were young, semi-literate as a result of their language and culture and almost always arrogant. It very much parallels Jim Jone’s group in that most of its members seem to have been ignorant, stupid and arrogant and a lot of young.

Seems like even the Old Guard have gotten stupid. I was shocked to see how stupid Guillame Leserve seemed on AC 360. He used to be smart.

It’s the only way to get a group into the condition of Jone’s or DM’s, to get ’em all stupid and so arrogant they don’t even know it.
Huckleberry | November 19, 2010 at 6:04 am |

LFBD!

I’d like to acknowledge that David Miscavige is an Implanter!

How best to implant another? Weaken their resolve; make them so Out-Ruds that they just accept the Implant because (a) they can’t think straight anymore and (b) everyone they know and trust is also accepting the Implant.

Jim Jones was a neanderthal compared with this guy. Very crude (and, yes, RJ, probably because the incompetent CIA psychs weren’t savvy enough to make him better). Miscavige is a far higher evolution; far more daunting. The point isn’t whether mass suicides will occur, the point is that the same mechanisms are in play. How far would a sleep and food deprived, implanted SO member with zero Havingness go to “save the planet”? That’s a scary question.

And if you want to know why OTs have been dying young, well, that’s what happens when you stir up the hornets’ nest of OT case and then fuck people around with IAS regging or arbitrary ethics actions.
Grasshopper | November 19, 2010 at 6:48 am |

Agreed. We need to have in place a way to prevent this from happening again. Now that I say that, I believe, actually, it is already in place, and it is called Independence. I won’t be suborning myself to any other ecclesiastical authority any time soon.
becomingAware | November 19, 2010 at 6:50 am |

MotorCityRedneck did a fine job on the comparision. From my personal experience all the points mentioned in the Peoples Temple sections rang so true I had to look at the captions to see which ‘religion’ they were talking about. The two items that I did not personally observe at Int were beatings or any homosexual remarks.
I was a wimp. The longest I could go without sleep was 4 days. The sick part of it was that I was proud I could go that long.
Looking back I cannot believe that I put up with it and went along with it.
Thought stopping at its finest.

david
Grasshopper | November 19, 2010 at 7:09 am |

Well, lucy – the folks at Jonestown knew what they were drinking when they drank it. They even rehearsed before. So, it wasn’t like the idea was sprung on them all of a sudden. But, you’re right, none of them walked in thinking – “Hey! This is the kind of rainbow love-fest that I can’t wait to die for!”

Committing mass suicide was consistent with Jones’s commie philosophy and his doctrine of persecution. Mass suicide is not consistent with the basic philosophy of Scientology.

On the other hand, making it go right, taking full responsibility for your condition, “no case on post,” giving your all for clearing the planet in five years, 5.4X’ing your org or mission, billion-year contracts, etc. – are all core components of the subject, and they have been exploited to the max. But, suicide is not on that list.

Miscavige is doing some awful things, but he can take it only as far as his people’s willingness will let him. No Scientologist will drink kool-aid to go to some starry-eyed vision of Heaven – but Jones’s people did, and others have, too.
Grasshopper | November 19, 2010 at 7:11 am |

So, RJ, the question is: How was he planning to get there?

Of course, Target 1 still needs a bit of work 🙂
Samuel | November 19, 2010 at 7:22 am |

RJ, I don’t know you but what you say rings true to me. I had my own experiences with point blank refusals (in each case I was as a point that I couldn’t care less about the consequences – this was GO time and much, much later also in the SO). And guess what? Nothing happened to me! Each time. Certain things got corrected but for a while only. Two weeks later, in the GO – or months later, in the SO – they had me worse than before for “something else” (in each case, I should not forget to add). There is intent behind it and it comes from high up as my incidences occurred in very different locations at very different times.
Samuel | November 19, 2010 at 7:41 am |

Correct Karen, and to add

++++ In spite of the blogs of Marty, Steve Hall and Jeff Hawkins extensively talking about fraud, felonies, brutalities, imprisonment, etc. reaching a combined audience, last month, of just over 20,000 people (unique visitors) that have read these blogs just over 100,000 times (visits) and to my knowledge there has not been a single suit filed for libel or slander.

++++++++++++ BUT ++++++++++++++ the same radical organization took IMMEDIATE legal action against a 19 year-old Daniel resulting in a POLICE ARREST for having taken a few of the org’s hard drives that he promptly returned after sorting out which contained his music and which were the orgs!
Jeff | November 19, 2010 at 7:42 am |

RJ, you say “anti-cult” like it’s a bad thing. What are you, pro-cult?
Joe Howard | November 19, 2010 at 8:02 am |

From January until June 1996, the materials of Golden Age of Tech and Golden Age of Tech for OTs were compiled by RTRC staff who were operating on an average of a few hours sleep per night with at least one all nighter every week, sometimes more. That sure messes with your thinking. On the other hand it is surprising that stuff can actually get done. One wonders how. Unfortunately, nearly all the insanities in the evolution were entered in by DM in the form of the implementation programs (Snr C/S Int Bulletins) and he got his beauty sleep most nights.
Hamburger | November 19, 2010 at 8:13 am |

Hamburg Org, mid nineties, I had left staff and hadn’t come back on course … an org-lady (OT-something), who then was admin personnel but had been my auditor in the mid-eighties tried to convince me to come back on course as paying public by this statement in a lowered voice:

“You know what, we’re leaving the planet in about ten years…!”

It was clear to me, she did not mean “with their bodies”.

I was wondering then how she would explain their disembodied “trip to the stars” to her (then) little son … but then again – a cup of cool-aid doesn’t need much explaining.
gandiguy | November 19, 2010 at 8:14 am |

Hi Karen,

While we are on the subject are there any legal eagles out there that can answer why a class action lawsuit could not be initiated against David Misgavige for all of the crimes against just about every writer on this and the other blog sites. Wouldn’t that drag him into court to answer up to his crimes and to be held personally accountable for them and maybe even busted and joined to a ball and chain?
ML
Gandiguy
OldGuard | November 19, 2010 at 8:20 am |

I have not seen anyone mention this, but there is a direct connection between Scientology and The People’s Temple well before the Jonestown deaths.

You can see some of it here: http://www.holysmoke.org/rvy/rvy213.htm

There is more in the California State Archives on Jones and company. This might jog Marty’s and Mike’s memories.

On the other hand the way things were compartmentalized, perhaps they never knew about the connection.
Kirsi | November 19, 2010 at 8:58 am |

Purely brilliant, LDW.
Erwin Croughs | November 19, 2010 at 9:03 am |

The higher tones of Davey like Controlling bodies, Owning bodies and Approval from bodies are well known. Less known is what he does best: Hiding. But as a leader of the fastest growing religion on the planet he: Can’t hide. He is so close to: Total Failure.
MostlyLurker | November 19, 2010 at 9:13 am |

I can see what Ensifer wrote, and I agree (we all agree) that mass suicidal & Scientology philosophy don’t mix. If you talk about the possibility of “mass murder” I bet it would be “out reality” to most scientologists. That’s because there is much more Scientology philosophy practiced amongst Scientologists in the outer circles of the Church and there is little Scientology philosophy teached and practiced at the Int Base. The closer you get to the top of the Church the less Scientology you have and the more cultish thought-stopping and violent criminal behavior you get. That’s why in the inner circles of the Church anything possible, and the possibility of death crimes is real. One example: LRH wrote in TWTH that people need to get proper rest, otherwise they make mistakes. At the Int Base “little\no sleep” is enforced, the more mistakes you make, the more you can be controlled with guild and make wrong, turning you into a slave ready to throw your family, friends, principles (that regularly happens) and perhaps your own life under the bus to follow Command Intention and protect the Leader. Ensifer has a deep knowledge about the abuses that may stem from a wrong application of Scientology, but I think he has never been at Int, and not under the madness of the mafia-like bully David Miscavige. No Scientology there.
Valkov | November 19, 2010 at 9:47 am |

DM’s “stupidity” or lack of such came up in a discussion between RJ and Jim Logan a couple of threads back.

Here’s my entirely theoretical take on it based entirely on one lecture by LRH.

And that is, according to LRH’s lecture on the Tone Scale and the 8 Dynamics, as a thetan individuates away from his 8 Dynamics by progressively Not-knowing, he falls down theToneScale, but he continues to create and DO everything he was doing right from the start. BUT, he becomes less and less AWARE that he IS still doing those things. He is still creating his 8 Dynamics and everything happening, it is only his awareness that he is doing so that lessens. He is doing those things, but he doesn’t know he is doing them. He KNOWS all, but he doesn’t know that he knows all.

Thus no matter how stupid DM seems, he is not basically stupid.

“Stupidity is unknownness of consideration”. He is not consciously aware that he knows, but he does know. Thus he is still capable of doing anything he could do before he became “stupid”. He acts “instinctively”, as an animal might act. He is his “AP”, with twisted goals. His “BP” remains at Native State and knows all. Most of his intelligence is below his level of awareness, but it still exists.

Like the “no responsibility case” who doesn’t steal anything – “Honest Your honor, I didn’t do it. My hand just reached out and took it.” (Or “pulled the trigger”, or… whatever) “I was driving home and the car just ran over him…”, his implants act through him. He lacks awareness of being the cause of his own actions, but he basically sure knows how to implant people, how to dodge anything that comes at him, how to subvert and take over an organization, whatever. After all, he has done it thousands of times, maybe millions of times. He knows without knowing, or knowing he knows. He has completely individuated from his dynamics but basically he is still creating them, so the knowingness is still there and is still operating.

He is like a sleepwalker in that way.

I can’t explain it any better than that.
I believe the relevant lecture was released as one of the Classics, titled “Man the Animal & Man the God”. Given by LRH on 28 January 1958. If that’s not the right lecture, sorry, I’ll have to dig around….

Having any scientology materials or whatever processing and training he had, only makes DM more dangerous because of his tone level, as he will “instinctively” apply them in a destructive, self-aggrandizing way. The knowingness contained in any incident on his whole track is available and can “act through him”. All the power he ever had as a thetan is also still there. Underneath his “stupidity”, all the native intelligence is still there, and it appears in the form of an animal cunning.

All the implants he has accumulated on his track and all the energy locked up in them is still there, and can be triggered, restimulated, by life events. That may be why he needs that grounding rod he uses. He may be afraid the power he is “channeling” might tear him apart or kill him.
He uses valences automatically. You might as well say valences use him, his body, his person. He’s just riding along as a spectator at best. He is in Hell. He probably restimulates himself to prevent his own total collapse. If his dramatization is broken, he may die very quickly, or go very obviously, babblingly insane.(Yes, I know we already see him that way… 🙂 )

So he doesn’t need high school, college, or much else. In fact, many of the most successful people in the world, for good or ill, had little education. He can read and listen. That’s bad enough.
George | November 19, 2010 at 9:59 am |

I agree with you. Very good point that DM is a old time implanter.
Want to add: Sometimes or very often people like DM, Hitler, Stalin aso. are painted to be nuts, psycho, on drugs indicating that basically they are insane and do not know what they do or are weak. I do not agree with this concept. They are all strong, know exactly what they are doing and are fully on purpose doing that.
Samuel | November 19, 2010 at 12:13 pm |

Glad you are not a moderator on this blog. It’s not yours either. I might not have allowed your tactless comment – so, be glad that I’m not a moderator on this blog either. Pax vobiscum, to both of us.
Sam | November 19, 2010 at 12:46 pm |

JM (with greatest respect and love to both you and Lucy)
In Lucy’s defense – not that Lucy needs any defending – I don’t see that she was stating a rule. More of a personal communication in reaction to a comment that was completely non-sequitur. With so many trolls out in force you I would tend to ‘err’ of the side of being suspicious of ‘Jane’s’ motives before slapping Lucy down.
Sam | November 19, 2010 at 1:35 pm |

You are absolutely right Christie… Sorry rant coming… can’t help myself:

Jim Jones’ activities were justified as perfectly ‘reasonable’ both by it’s own members and the public at large because people were simply unwilling or unable to confront the evil that it was. And so it is now with the ‘Church of Scientology’.

It is insanity to similarly explain away the exact same mechanisms of DM’s cult. This is a living, breathing Jonestown. It is a living breathing Nazi Germany.

Those who are still inside the ‘church’, who are justifying it’s current activities, who are flowing help and power to it or who are doing nothing to stop the atrocities being committed daily have blood on their hands and will have murder on their conscience just as surely as the Jonestown survivors do now.

The comparison between Jim Jones and David Miscavige is undeniable. Their actions can be explained away and justified until the tragedy becomes so great that the cost in terms of loss, sorrow and tragedy are too great to bear and we become yet another lesson to be learned from history.

Perhaps this sounds harsh but I would not like to be in the shoes of any ‘Scientologist’ who may one day carry the burden of knowing that they ALLOWED and CONDONED innocent lives to be lost (while frantically explaining away the obvious and flagrant outpoints) only to mourn with the pitiful and impotent bleating of ‘if only we had known’.

We do know. All of us. But it will take courage such as has been demonstrated by Christie and Mike and many others here who weighed the personal costs of speaking out and taking a stand against evil and tyranny against the personal responsibility of protecting others from harm.

Ahhh, but it can never happen to us! Is that so? Then mark this swan song well upon the gravestones of the 909 victims of Jim Jones.

OK rant over.
Sam | November 19, 2010 at 1:42 pm |

PS
Those who think that Jonestown was a willing ‘mass suicide’ read up on your history. The compound was surrounded by armed guards.
OnceUponaTime | November 19, 2010 at 2:09 pm |

Lunamoth,

Chilling. But, if one is convinced that bodies are merely and encumbrance, then dropping the body would make sense. Look at how that reasoning was used as an excuse to break up families. Shudder.

A bit out gradient just dropping the body. A bit unrealistic. When was the last time anyone went full OT just by dropping the body?

Imagine the surprise of suicide bombers when they don’t reach Islamic Heaven. Ooops!

Michael
Sam | November 19, 2010 at 2:12 pm |

Quote from Stanley Nelson, director of 2006 documentary ‘Jonestown – The Life and Death of Peoples Temple’

“What is the lesson of Jonestown?
There’s one point in the film where a survivor is talking about a deviant sexual event that he’d seen, and he says, “I knew it was wrong, but I didn’t do a thing to stop it.” And that’s the message. When do you stand up and say something’s wrong? When do you say stop? That’s important, because the change that took place in the members of Peoples Temple happened little by little. They didn’t say no, so they changed a little. They didn’t speak out, so they changed a little more. So by the time they got to that final day in Guyana, they were very different people. “
OnceUponaTime | November 19, 2010 at 2:16 pm |

Just Me,

Speaking of, I looked out the window and a flock of Cedar Waxwings were frolicking around the koi pond. Looked like a display of tropical birds had escaped the pet store. Gorgeous birds. Must have been forty or fifty of them.

Michael
Hallelujah | November 19, 2010 at 2:22 pm |

Michael — Thank you for such an honest and caring comment. It really is quite simple, isn’t it? Hallelujah!
Haydn | November 19, 2010 at 2:43 pm |

People have already died and been injured. And the blatant disregard for life by Miscavige, even basic human safety, lack of basic health care for many Sea Org members, injurious out-tech, you name it, is shocking. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that such will continue and only worsen, unless stopped. The comparison with Jim Jones and his group makes that clearer than ever.

In watching the video I was particularly struck by the account of the poor guy who killed himself after blackmail tactics were used on him to prevent his refund. It hit me hard because its a sad account and this was Bournemouth Mission, the lowest level of “org” in DM’s grim world, and because I was in the UK at the time but did not know of this event.

What I do know is that Bournemouth’s exploits were lauded, cheered and held up as an example to all in the UK by DM’s UK command team (fired personally by DM and which reported to him). And it’s clear from the video that DM’s tactics of “follow me or I will expose your dark secrets” reached all the way over to the UK and as far down the command structure as the smallest form of org.

All orgs were ordered to emulate Bournemouth at the time in the UK. In Birminham we refused to follow their “lead” and watched in horror as they burned brightly for a very short while and then imploded disastrously, another spectacular example of Miscavige mismanagement.

This UK example makes it clear that Miscavige’s corrupting influence runs far deeper and stretches much further than that of Jim Jones.
lookingin | November 19, 2010 at 2:57 pm |

For those that are interested, you can get a very interesting info re Jonestown @peterdavidbeter.com. He was writing about Jonestown and CIA well before the massacre took place, and his description of the final days is the only one that did not leave me with more questions.
It does not negate Marty’s concerns about Int; how much further would it would be for those at Int to go, after all the other spiritual atrocities we have come to find out about. If the Feds showed up at the front gate in force, it is really hard to say how the whole thing would go down. No matter how this settles out, it is not going to end well. Maybe dm’s ev purp is in the realm of spiritual annihilation and keep the MEST a’going.
metaqual | November 19, 2010 at 3:16 pm |

Jeff – While your request is understandably reasonable, this is somewhat like asking “where does it say that Lee Harvey Oswald did not act alone?” The CIA does not officially admit to their wrong doings and when they are forced to they minimize it in the extreme. In the Seventies, the Congress admitted their was a conspiracy to the JFK assassination. The pendulum swung so far to the right in the last decade that “conventional wisdom” has reverted back to the Warren Report. Anway, there are many many reference linking Jim Jones to mind control (I mean, look at what he did to his people! Think it was all him?) Here is a Wikipedia excerpt plus a reference to a book that it is from, but that will only get you started.
Wiki: “Jonestown, the Guyana location of the Jim Jones cult and Peoples Temple mass suicide, was thought to be a test site for MKULTRA medical and mind control experiments after the official end of the program. Congressman Leo Ryan, a known critic of the CIA, was murdered by Peoples Temple members after he personally visited Jonestown to investigate various reported irregularities.”[62]^ [reference : Meier, M (1989). Was Jonestown a CIA Medical Experiment?: A Review of the Evidence. New York: Edwin Mellen. ISBN 0-8894-6013-2.]
[edit]
metaqual | November 19, 2010 at 3:36 pm |

LRH wanted ecclesiastical authority….the same stuff Larry Brennan was lobbying for. A Scientology attorney set up a whole corporate structure so LRH could be the “Pope” with spiritual authority but no ecclesiastical authority. DM refused this and he was consulting with attorney of his own that he hired. This is a very murky area (just like the murky area Marty referred to of 1980-1986 when LRH had SPs filtering his comm) and is where Meade Emory enters the fold. It would be REALLY interesting to see the actual checks paid to Meade Emory and all the interaction that occurred between him, DM and the Lenske’s and to know how it actually went down. Most staff would make Meade’s corporate scheme seem like an afterthought or something he just grabbed from a template as opposed to being a cleverly thought out that would lead to isolating LRH and his family from any of the assets. The confront of evil requires one to look beyond the obvious and when we do that, we see what is hidden and when something is hidden, it is by definition OCCULT.
I know LRH was pissed when DM said the lawyers told him he had to stay off the lines for his own legal protection. This, from what I recall, is what prompted LRH to order the sec check on DM. LRH was overtaken and subdued at this point by: DM, Broeker, the lawyers and who they all represented. LRH’s ability to reach out was cut. By his own technology, overts inhibit your ability to reach. People love to accuse LRH of overts. They are most often wrong. We know LRH committed an overt of omission in not getting rid of his most “trusted” aids here. Hindsight is great. He also had a games condition going on with the authorities. Simply put, he wasn’t following their rules, and I don’t mean to imply their rules are good. In the end, LRH was the one who ended up with the pink legs that got stuffed under the couch. Gee. Maybe that’s why DM uses the tanning equipment. That was his legs will never be pink. You know, “Pink Legs” would be a great title or perhaps “The Pink Legs Files”.
lucy | November 19, 2010 at 3:42 pm |

hey thanks for the back-up! even in the rebel crowd a little defense is needed from time to time:)
DFB aka Dfb99 | November 19, 2010 at 3:43 pm |

How do you know lucy is “Lucy”?

I think you can type in whatever name you want at any time.
I could make my next posting with the name “lucy” (I think).

Unless you have a WordPress Gravatar thingy I think anyone can post with your “handle”.
martyrathbun09 | November 19, 2010 at 3:49 pm |

Quite. Thanks Haydn. If I had the time I’d connect all the dots to back you up on “Miscavige’s corrupting influences run far deeper and stretches much further than that of Jim Jones.” Maybe this weekend.
martyrathbun09 | November 19, 2010 at 3:50 pm |

Spot on Sam.
martyrathbun09 | November 19, 2010 at 3:59 pm |

Sam noted: The comparison between Jim Jones and David Miscavige is undeniable. In fact, as Haydn noted, MIscavige far more dangerous than Jones ever was. If I get the chance I’ll connect some dots. But, for the most part all those dots (uncontested by RS) are within the 428 posts (more than 1200 pages) on this blog.
Watchful Navigator | November 19, 2010 at 4:02 pm |

Thanks Jim,

Really puts things into clearer perspective for someone still “in” and working to uphold LRH’s basic, original purpose of pursuing truth and workable applications for effective help. I have participated in and witnessed, many an insanity that was only finally resolved by putting the focus back on clean, basic purpose. A whole lot easier to accomplish in an Org HCO or ED’s office than it seems it would be in the SO.

It is clear to me that the Sea Org is off-purpose and has been taken so at the behest of LRH’s usurper.

My hat is off and my heart goes out, to those who have endured the real madness up close and lived to tell about it. I always thought I owed a great debt to those dedicated enough to “keep Scientology there” 24/7 – literally 24/7. But that is of course now modified to mean those who want to see the subject used correctly, with good intentions and good results – never enforced and certainly never REVERSED as it has become in so many places and in so many ways.

I cannot describe in words what it means to have people like you and Marty and the hundreds of ex-SO with the courage to speak out and the resolve, against impossible-seeming odds, to wrest the subject from its usurper and put it back on its clean, sensible, quite valuable purpose.

“…You live to help others.” – LRH
martyrathbun09 | November 19, 2010 at 4:11 pm |

Old guard. Never saw this before. Not surprising if it is authentic. I am somewhat suspcious as to authenticity, because I do not believe Cult Awareness Network existed in 1972.
Huckleberry | November 19, 2010 at 4:21 pm |

I dispute this notion, Joe, that “stuff gets done”. It’s chickens running around without heads; everyone looks busy, no one eats or rests, but what are the actual products of the CoS? It’s all meaningless shit in the Big Picture. Nothing substantial is ever achieved. I mean beyond producing six events a year in which our Kim Jong Il is given standing ovations by a rent-a-crowd.

There are fewer Scientologists today than there were in 1990. There are ornate buildings, but they’re empty. The OTs who are left are so PTP’ed that they can’t be effective. There’s the promise of more OT levels, undelivered. Super Power, undelivered. Incomplete cycles of action everywhere.

And then there’s greatest “product” of Miss Cabbage’s reign: a planet-wide ARC Break with the technology that would actually make this a better, more peaceful, more loving place.

To use a vernacular you’re familiar with, COB: Nice fucking going, asshole.
Fellow Traveller | November 19, 2010 at 4:44 pm |

Your memory does seem very much in tact, Marty.

From Wikipedia:
The Cult Awareness Network (CAN) was founded in the wake of the November 18, 1978 deaths of members of the group Peoples Temple and assassination of Congressman Leo J. Ryan in Jonestown, Guyana.

Bruce Pratt
Jim Logan | November 19, 2010 at 4:56 pm |

WN,
Thank you. Sincerely.

I get long-winded as I work things out. What I’m getting at in this post is I think it comes down to the orgs, staff and so on, have to ‘live’. This effort to have an automaticity as something that is there to free up beings from all the automatic machines they’ve already got, doesn’t work.

The ‘moral code’ is just another automaticity. It’s a machine that spits out an answer to ‘what do I do next’, when confronted with some circumstance. The problem is, the circumstance in present time isn’t the same as the one the machine was set up to handle. It breaks down, seizes, throws a rod and crunch.

I am making an appeal to the OSA guys to look and see if they haven’t adopted the machinery of a fixed moral code to decide for them what to do in place of looking and judging for themselves what makes sense relative to the aims of the subject.

DM’s Ideal Org is an automaticity. A robotic machine that makes robots. It’s an impossibility in a Scientology org. That’s becoming more and more evident as the beings in the group balk at and protest against this effort to make it a stimulus-response MEST machine with some postulates stuck in it.

The entire effort of the technology is to free up a being from previously put there machinery so he can play a better game. The effort of DM is the diametric opposite. So he uses the ‘machine’ of the moral code to make people robotically follow the machine of the moral code. That machinery isn’t working. GAT doesn’t work. Basics aren’t a machine either.

Postulates and live comm are the keys to success in auditing, AND the orgs.
Samuel | November 19, 2010 at 5:05 pm |

As an extension to the compilation of Golden Age of Tech: think of the evolution at the SAG Building in LA – sleep? What is that? Anyone ever having seen how the translators didn’t sleep while translating any of the releases – the miracle is that something came out the other end at all. Would I vouch for the correctness of the translations? How could I or anybody do that (and that is on top of the alter-is of the materials provided to them for translation in the first place).
Jim Logan | November 19, 2010 at 5:12 pm |

dfb,
Whether the ‘kool-aid’ is literal and kills bodies, or it is more sinister and works on the thetan isn’t the point I took from this comparison.

It struck me that, especially in the Sea Org orgs, that DM is the demagogue that can take a group down to its destruction. He is doing just that. The similarities and even identities with Jim Jones and DM also struck me. I mean, that cycle in the video where Jones badgers the fella that wants to go home to see his family is actually NICER than what DM puts out. DM is much worse, in my opinion, than Jim Jones ever was, and if David had his way, you’d see thousands of dead bodies, make no mistake.

This guy, David Miscavige, is an incredibly destructive and hateful person. That is a harsh reality of this comparison. The current actions of those acting to further this man’s aims, and willing to go to extremes to do so…that reality is ever more apparent.

This is madness. Very hard to confront. That’s why it persists.
lunamoth | November 19, 2010 at 5:12 pm |

Yes, this would have been late eighties, early nineties when I was hearing this. Seems like it was being whispered to OT’s from all over, if you heard it in Germany and I heard it in this part of the U.S.
lunamoth | November 19, 2010 at 5:24 pm |

Wikipedia puts the network’s creation as post-Jonestown, which itself was in 1978.
Boyd H. | November 19, 2010 at 5:25 pm |

Check out Dave’s know-best incompetence. Pretty sure he’d have to ok something like this, what with the long runway before getting the reporter in session, and someone on a short leash (freedom medal winner) was involved.
Next time don’t appear theetie weetie propitiative and don’t sell them on Scientology handling completely everything. Two easy obvious ways to guarantee an entheta article. Several crystal clear references and how-to-dissem tapes violated. Looks like intentionally sabotaged.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/let-us-audit/story-e6frg8h6-1225955788550
OldGuard | November 19, 2010 at 5:38 pm |

CAN didn’t exist before the People’s Temple murders/suicides. This is about contacts some 6 years previous between RVY when he was working for Scientology and the People’s Temple guys.

There are a number of these on Scientology letterhead in the files of the archives on the People’s Temple. I might be able to get scanned copies if anyone would like to see them.
Mike | November 19, 2010 at 5:44 pm |

As a life long resident of the wog world, I see CO$ and Jonestown as being more similar than dis-similiar. They both ask you to give everything to them, while they give nothing back to you, they are right, you are wrong, if you depart, you cant come back and will die alone and in pain, others not with us, must be against us and you…… To those who have left everything they know behind, i respect you.
Amy Scobee | November 19, 2010 at 5:54 pm |

I think that would be important, Marty — people need to keep being warned to stay FAR away from the Scientology organization, as it exists today under Miscavige. In my opinion, I don’t think there’s a limit to what he’d do to any of those left-over, completely broken “executives” before allowing any one of them to escape and further expose his torture techniques and scams. But it’s not just a problem at the Int base – I’ve heard numerous horror stories about how the insanity has filtered down to the lowest levels.
anonymous | November 19, 2010 at 6:00 pm |

You may note that the reference to the cult awareness network was an edit to the letter after the fact by “DMR”, David Rice, who hosts skeptictank.

The original correspondent only referred to a “agreed upon antagonist”.

The “agreed upon antagonist” was more likely the CIA which in 1972 had its hooks in the the church big time via church members being used in the famous SRI experiments funded by it.
Jeff | November 19, 2010 at 6:10 pm |

Metaquil, I am not a big fan of passive voice in this context. “It has been substantiated…” and “it was thought to be…” It doesn’t say who substantiated it or who thought it. I don’t doubt some people thought it, in fact the GO promoted that theory extensively to try to minimize what they feared would be the negative PR fallout from the incident. But vague inferences and rhetorical questions like “do you really think it was all him?” don’t cut it. Personally I recommend Tim Reiterman’s recent book “Raven” for an extensive and well-researched look at Jonestown and the People’s Temple. The parallels between Jones cult and the current Church of Scientology, particularly the Int Base, are eerie, as Marty and others have pointed out.
Sam Domingo | November 19, 2010 at 6:11 pm |

Hells Bells! Lucy! is that REALLY you?! 😉
Sam Domingo | November 19, 2010 at 6:12 pm |

A ‘snarling’ one whenever you need it.
Tara | November 19, 2010 at 6:29 pm |

Exactly Sam! And how low do you have to go before you can no longer say “no”?
Then for those who do say “no” do they end up caught in the crossfire before you can escape…
nancy many | November 19, 2010 at 6:39 pm |

I have been involved with Scientology one way or another for 36 years. I have often been asked( while both in and out) if the group would ever turn Jonestown, and I always answered never.

I can no longer say that any more.

I know they have guns up there as well as who knows what….

very sadly,
nancy many
lunamoth | November 19, 2010 at 6:40 pm |

metaqual

If it is stated that something has been substantiated, it is only logical that said substantiation can be produced. Otherwise, it is believed, inferred, implied, rumored, “said,” asserted, claimed or purported, but it is not substantiated.
OTDT | November 19, 2010 at 6:41 pm |

After contemplating this subject for a couple of days, I can more clearly see the frightening similarities between Jim Jones’s tactics and DM’s method of hammering a group of dedicated people into a mob of frenzied psycho-obedient mind-slaves who will carry out whatever official agenda mandated.

Jane above, mentions one of DM’s subtle tactics which has been to recruit young, ignorant, needy and desperate people from Third World-type nations like Eastern Europe. I’ve seen the same thing occur at Flag with newly appointed young, inexperienced, arrogant and snarling Guatemalan MAA kids who treated me like I was a suppressive reform school reject hardly worthy of their practiced sneer because I wouldn’t goose-step to their music.

The parallel to the People’s Temple is that their members seemed to be mostly made up of stupid, ignorant and needy people hammered and hypnotized into blind obedience, cruelty and arrogance, operating on the principle that they are vastly superior to the horrible world that exists outside their lofty bubble.

Isn’t that what DM is doing? Depriving ‘his people’ of food, sleep, and praise, begging for the possibility of a moment’s peace? Degrading, invalidating and humiliating them under the guise of creating a better world?

It seems to be DM’s aim to surround himself with people made stupid so they feel inferior enough to cede control of their lives to him, just like Jones. Seems he’s been very busy doing this with all the Old Guard staff. Look at Guillame Leserve on AC 360, who comes across as completely stupid and desperate, just like the Wives. Norm Starkey acts like he’s on thorazine or xanax or alcohol or possibly even had a lobotomy. Tommy sits in the back, quacking like a sophisticated but stupid pull-string puppet.

DM has developed an internal culture where otherwise intelligent, capable and caring people with a world-class arsenal of tech and a worthwhile purpose have devolved into a pack of mouth-frothing psychos who think it is OK to beat the hell out of each other and humiliate and degrade one another. The Debbie Cook lesbian water boarding incident, the Heber face squirting incident, the fight-for-your-life musical chairs party, punching people in the stomach, choking people, ranting diatribes and continual encouragement and sanctioning of physical violence, forced abortions, blackmail, disconnection and destruction of families are proof that DM is up to some kind of long-term mind control agenda.

The LRH Death Event, MCed by DM, was an announcement of purposeful suicide, per the definition of the word, stating clearly that LRH decided to kill his body in order to get on with the next OT Level.

On the future track of the C of S, if parishioners follow the same supposed footsteps of LRH to reach that level, will they be required to “discard the body” in order to earn eligibility for OT Eleventy-Two? Or will DM have something up his grimy sleeve, some secret heretofore unannounced and now revealed ultra-confidential LRH super-bulletins that reveal how to navigate through that level while still retaining possession of one’s body? Oooh, how grateful everyone will be to DM that they do not have to kill themselves in order to achieve their next step on the Bridge to Total Freedom.

After all, DEAD PEOPLE CAN’T DONATE!

Unless of course they set up a trust fund in perpetuity or will their worldly goods to the Tschurch! Uh-oh, did I just give another idea to DM? Dammit all to hell!!
Haydn | November 19, 2010 at 6:50 pm |

Marty,

The tragic case of the UK suicide that I knew nothing of brought home to me the fact that over the years I know of or witnessed a number of people who died or were severely injured as a direct result of Miscavige’s insane actions or polices. These are not generally known because they didn’t make the newspapers.

Similarly I have met others who knew of cases that I knew nothing of.

My point? If this is a common situation I believe more people have already died directly or indirectly at Miscavige’s hands than died at Jonestown. But because it is a case of one person here and one person there and because Miscavige’s minions are quick to cover tracks, hide suicide notes and the like and because we’ve all never compared notes or actually made a count, the fact has remained hidden.
OTDT | November 19, 2010 at 6:58 pm |

DEAD PEOPLE DON’T DONATE!

The LRH Death Event was in fact an announcement of suicide by Ron in order to do the next level unencumbered by his body.

If DM can figure a way out of that one so parishioners DON’T have to follow in LRH’s footsteps when they release OT Eleventy-Two, people will be so grateful for not having to kill themselves as their next step on the Bridge to Total Freedom, donations would skyrocket!

But if it is mandatory to kill oneself in order to remove one of the last barriers to total freedom, one could always cede one’s worldly goods to the Tschurch before doing so! Or a trust fund in perpetuity!

Did I just give DM another idea? Dammit all to hell!!!!
martyrathbun09 | November 19, 2010 at 7:09 pm |

Good point Haydn.
martyrathbun09 | November 19, 2010 at 7:10 pm |

Thanks for the reference Jeff.
Watchful Navigator | November 19, 2010 at 7:17 pm |

Jim,
Thanks again – for extending your comments to arrive at that precious, vital concept: “Postulates and live comm are the keys to success in auditing, AND the orgs.”
So true. And all that is so very helpful and relevant to those with reasons to “hang in there” and compel reform, whether from inside or out.

Does it need to be added that a reactive mind with all its stupidities is pretty much composed of machinery put there in lieu of a live being who is in real, honest, confronted, live communication? Isn’t DM just mocking up a machine in lieu of live Scientology?

For any other staff out there still ‘live’ enough to seek other viewpoints outside the mechanized, automated control centers remaining, keeping always in mind the seniority of Purpose to Policy, here is the golden “rule” (to end all rules) by which those of us in the know, still hanging “in” there for various reasons, maintain our own sanity and that of those around us:

“I don’t care how many rules you break if they’re broken to give unselfish service to one another and the public. We live for service not for rules.”

“…don’t worship our rituals. Be as orderly as you can. Follow our rules as best you can. But a rule can be wrong and service and our mission can never be wrong.

“Use the rules until they prevent you from doing your job. But if these stop you, then to hell with the rules! Get the show on the road!” – LRH: HCO PL SERVICE – (end fair use quote)

Let’s not overlook the obvious – that HCO PL has been used and abused to justify idiotic actions by those on the other end of the spectrum: simply unable to apply rules and good-sense control towards a decent outcome.

It is the ultimate irony that a subject devised to break free of any and all of the mind-control operations in the universe, with answers to the overwhelming of an individual’s self-determinism by the group (CULT), could be devilishly REVERSED to accomplish all the trappings of a formidible cult itself, as chillingly paralleled in this video.

Bearing in mind that violence has become the operating basis of der leader, but that it is not limited to physical beatings. It also manifests on our dynamics as: enforced abortions, broken marriages and families, severed relationships, slave labor, prevented living, abused bodies… the list goes on…

Let’s take a famous statement of our group purpose made by LRH and compare it to the culture of violence and MEST-automation of Orgs and training which has slowly been replacing genuine UNDERSTANDING (the summation of the Affinity-Reality-Communication which characterizes the spirit/theta).

“My purpose is to bring a barbarism out of the mud it thinks conceived it and to form here on Earth a civilization based on human understanding, not violence.

“That’s a big purpose. A broad field. A star-high goal.

“But I think it’s your purpose, too.” – LRH
Sam Domingo | November 19, 2010 at 7:24 pm |

We may never know
Old school | November 19, 2010 at 7:41 pm |

“The compound was surrounded by armed guards.”

Hmm, lots of guards at Int. They have access to lots of guns too…
Oldfox | November 19, 2010 at 7:48 pm |

Erwin, Thanks for completing the thought process on that idea!
I am just wondering if one of the artistically inclined poets or songwriters on this blog might come up with a Xmas carrol on DM that we can all sing along to the tune of Jingle Bells. Of course we need to leave the good name of Scrooge out of it as he did have redeeming qualities .
Rory Medford | November 19, 2010 at 7:49 pm |

History repeats itself.

People like DM goes down in flames like all the other tyrants and dictators.

Truth be told,its just a matter of time before all crumbles, be patient, the shoe is about to drop
RJ | November 19, 2010 at 8:21 pm |

Gee Jeff,

I thought you’d be the last person I’d have to explain that being against something doesn’t mean I support its opposite.
Jim Logan | November 19, 2010 at 8:34 pm |

Boyd,
Can you, or anybody for that matter, decipher what this person was running on this guy?
RJ | November 19, 2010 at 8:39 pm |

GH,

It was just another of those WTF moments that has anyone with a lick of sense moving towards the nearest exit.

Like you I had no idea how he planned to move onto “Target II” and I didn’t care I just wanted to GTFO as the guy was obviously delusional or on drugs.
Stan | November 19, 2010 at 8:52 pm |

Marty, while I believe that there are certainly some legitimate parallels between DM’s Church and the People’s Temple, I do see the story ending up rather differently. Instead of DM drinking his own Kool-Aid, I expect he will end up in a South American country that has no extradition treaty with the US along with a large portion of the IAS slush fund he has squirreled away.
RJ | November 19, 2010 at 8:55 pm |

I agree Huckleberry,

Jones was a crude amateur compared to Miscavige and his team of implanters.

Not only is he using the old accepted methods of sleep deprivation and coersion but adds new wrinkles which are in fact very old as in whole track such as altering the past and using electronics (audio-visual) to overwhelm.
RJ | November 19, 2010 at 9:01 pm |

George,

I disagee.

Miscavige may not be totally weak and powerless but he is able to achieve what he has by the help willing accomplices and advisors.

Personally I don’t believe in an all powerful SP.
Hallelujah | November 19, 2010 at 9:19 pm |

Jim — Book I? H
Oldfox | November 19, 2010 at 9:23 pm |

Hi Matt,
You know in astonichment to the programs and orders came from up lines I often wondered what substance could be in the water or food they consume at the Int base.
I knew you when you were a very helpfull Treas Sec at FSO and one day you told me you were getting some Super Power auditing.
Any way I will leave it at that for now as I stll have some work to do on along “our lines “before I display my peacock feathers.
RJ | November 19, 2010 at 9:51 pm |

MQ,

Thanks.

It also explains why Ron completely withdrew from the area and how Miscavige was able to forge various ‘R’ advices giving him the “authority” to set up a “special project” within MAC giving him the power to take out the GO and nullify the Corporate Sort Out and set up a structure that would eventually give him dictatorial power over the entire Scientology network.

All he had to do was play Eminence Gris get it Gris….

until Broeker faltered and fell out of favor with managment and he was in like Flynn who by the way was someone else who assisted his rise to power.

He even bragged about the underhanded and deceitful method he employed to convince Mary Sue to step down as controller in the ‘Man Behind Scientology’.

I always knew that he was not intelligent enough to do it on his own and your post adds the necessary background on how he was able to do it with the help of outside advisors.
DFB aka Dfb99 | November 19, 2010 at 10:23 pm |

Book one with that little card that fits in your wallet that gives you the patter. The one they used to hand out for the seminar so people wouldnt have to read the book.
Karen B | November 19, 2010 at 10:24 pm |

Awesome post!

“The being occupying the body of David Miscavige IS an implanter. He probably has been in the valence of an implanter for a very long time.”

Yes, I completely agree!
DFB aka Dfb99 | November 19, 2010 at 10:24 pm |

That was pretty bad.
RJ | November 19, 2010 at 10:28 pm |

I wouldn’t accept anything Wikipedia says as the ultimate truth.

I know for a fact that in the mid-70’s before Peoples Temple that Ted Patrick was operating in the area with a group of deprogrammers who were funded by Martin Orne, Jolly West and Margaret Singer all former CIA assets involved in Mk Ultra or Artichoke.

Also there is much evidence of Government involvement and support of Peoples Temple at various levels and that it wasn’t really considered a “cult” until it moved to Guyana and asked for asylum in the Soviet Union.

Something the the State Department was ordered to prevent at all costs.

So the scene was much more complicated than the Anti-Culties like to present it.

Just a word of warning lest we fall into the same trap ourselves in attempting to make invidious connections.

Also there is compelling evidence that the vast majority of the residents did not simply drink the Kool-Aid and that they were either injected with it, forced to drink it at gun point or were simply shot.

Something that isn’t mentioned much either is that many of the adherents were drugged with thorazine and other psychiatric drugs if they were unwilling to comply with Jone’s insane orders.

So there was a lot more to it than a bunch of people mostly of color falling for the insane dictates of a mad man.

Not to mention the fact that once they arrived at the compound they were trapped there and had no means of escape.
RJ | November 19, 2010 at 10:49 pm |

Gee Lunamoth.

A lot of what we post here hasn’t been substantiated.

Why suddenly the double standard?
Boyd H. | November 19, 2010 at 10:51 pm |

Jim, seems like some kind of process where you tell the pc their wins at the end. I think it’s best to not audit reporters unless you succeed. Also handling an injury with a verbal PTS/SP explanation when you want fast impingement on a doubtful reporter isn’t right either. Have him read the materials and see if it indicates before trying it. Either way I think he was taken on a tour through miscavigetown, ok Lucy?
RJ | November 19, 2010 at 10:55 pm |

True I remember the reports of various security staff practicing with automatic weapons in case of some kind of Armageddon.

I agree that the concept of having that much fire power under the control of a lunatic is a scary concept.

And could explain why people willingly go to the hole rather than protest.
Haydn | November 19, 2010 at 10:55 pm |

My personal opinion on where Miscavige might blow to agrees with yours on that point Stan.

But the problem is that the facts show that Jonestown is already here as far as Scientology is concerned. It isn’t going to happen, it has happened and is happening.

Our “Jonestown” has been with us for quite some time now. The Kool-Aid Miscavige has been feeding people for many years is highly toxic and very damaging. And I’m not just talking about spiritual damage (though some might argue that that’s the worst kind because it goes way beyond the here and now).

Very real damage has been caused in terms of deaths, injury and ruined lives. If that’s not a “Jonestown” I don’t know what is.
RJ | November 19, 2010 at 11:08 pm |

Interesting that Reiterman uses Jone’s code name Raven yet ignores his earlier intelligence connections.

I’d say that’s a feat that ranks right up there with turning water into wine.

Unlike Lane who was at least in the compound Reiterman was one of the reporters who was wounded when Ryan was killed and really didn’t have much contact with Jones.
biro | November 19, 2010 at 11:09 pm |

Mass murder at Int Base, I doubt it. But I can imagine an occasional ‘suicide’ or ‘accident’. Didn’t Shellie Miscaviage’s mother manage to “shoot herself” with a rifle several times? – after causing a lot of trouble for DM.

But would DM have armed for a stand-off against the Feds like the Waco bunch? I think not. The coward won’t go down in a hail of bullets defending his base. I guess only some of the more senior guards just carry a standard pistol. I can’t imagine any stashes of automatic weapons being held there. Anyone who knows differently please ‘fess up.

And under state laws don’t guns have to be registered with the Sherrifs Dept or something?, is there a way to find out what is legally held there?

Didn’t Ron mention something like and ‘who hasn’t left a body or two in a culvert’ – I guess this would be taken totally literally by DM. So are there any bodies buried in the desert surrounding Int Base, or in the concrete foundations of any of those new buildings?

People have disappeared, or at least been out of comm with the rest of humanity for a very long time.

Mass murder? – No. But as mentioned here already the occasional death by apparant suicide, accident, undiagnosed health issues, malnutrition, heatstroke – no one will argue, as whoever died would have been out-ethics, down-stat and a problem for quite a while before it happened. Doesn’t make DM any less culpable.
theoracle | November 19, 2010 at 11:20 pm |

I don’t know that everyone is basically intelligent or brilliant or genious or smart. We would have to assume that as a truth to arrive at the conclusion that stupidity is always a decision. You could know many things I don’t know.
Karen B | November 19, 2010 at 11:29 pm |

Because she installed a cancellor, I believe it was supposed to be Book 1. It didn’t sound at all standard to me but I wasn’t there for the session. Didn’t have any actual EP . I’d never leave someone in that state. someone a Book 1 session. Sounds like she just stirred up a lot of charge.
Though very rudimentary, Book 1 produces some phenomenal case change, from my experience.
Andy | November 19, 2010 at 11:49 pm |

Did anyone post anything about the identities of Jim Jones and Miscavage? Or was it similarities? I saw similarities, not identities – they are not the same thing.
Your comment is out of left field – non sequitur and does not lead to further understanding. Out ARC. Goofy.
Andy | November 19, 2010 at 11:53 pm |

Thank you Jim. You frequently help me to see things in a way I had not previously considered.

Andy
OnceUponaTime | November 19, 2010 at 11:59 pm |

Jim,

Profound.

Michael
Tara | November 20, 2010 at 12:04 am |

Haydn~I don’t personally know this story, but just checked out the link re. a woman who was murdered by her psycho son.
http://archaen.blogspot.com/2010/11/scientology-on-speakeasy-this-saturday.html
“Scientology on SPEAKEASY this Saturday. If Scientology were a kid, it would be the schoolyard bully. Give me your homework, give me your lunch money, now do what I say. Seriously. This week on the radio show we are going to really get into what Scientology is. If you want to see what I mean, go to youtube and google “Scientology and Me”. A British documentary from the BBC which is pretty crazy. Seriously, Lord Xenu, go back to your home planet of crazy and leave these poor people alone. Tune in at 1000AM KKIM on Saturday from 6-7 to stream live at Mykkim.com. You will want to hear this one. Yep. I said it. And while you’re waiting for Saturday, please, do not be ill informed, the “Psyciatry: An Industry of Death” museum downtown is a scientologist trap. Don’t fall for it.”
This photo has the murdered mother info on it:
Sapere Aude | November 20, 2010 at 12:05 am |

During the early 1970’s there were several programs for PR to ally with other religions. This was to strengthen the Church as a religion to bolster the IRS cases etc. Vaugn was a PR in the GO at SFO. He would have been working to ally with any and all church groups he could in Northern California. Jones and company were located a few hours north of SF. CAN and any anti cult activities didn’t get going until later in the 70’s.

Later the incident in South America was viewed as something to watch and deal with PR wise as it had stirred up anti fringe church sentiments. By that time Vaughn was working in LA on Interpol stuff.

I do not believe there was ever real cooperation with Jones and group.
Cat Daddy | November 20, 2010 at 12:11 am |

http://www.internetcult.com/FREECOG/encyclopedia.htm

“FREECOG was the first organized “anti-cult” group,[citation needed] formed in large part in response to the total commitment required by the Children of God. One of the founders of FREECOG is Ted Patrick, widely considered the “Father of Deprogramming Deprogramming refers to actions that attempt to force a person to abandon allegiance to a religious, political, economic, or social group. Methods and practices typically involve violent kidnapping and coercion. Similar actions, when done without force, are called “exit counseling”… [cont.]”.[citation needed]

FREECOG accused the Children of God of brainwashing Mind control refers to a process in which a group or individual “systematically uses unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being manipulated”. The term has been applied to any tactic, psychological or otherwise, which can be seen as… [cont.] and used various methods including conservatorship Conservatorship is a legal concept in the United States of America, where an entity or organization is subjected to the legal control of an external entity or organization, known as a conservator. Conservatorship is established either by court order or via a statutory or regulatory authority (with regards to organizations). When referring to… [cont.] and deprogramming Deprogramming refers to actions that attempt to force a person to abandon allegiance to a religious, political, economic, or social group. Methods and practices typically involve violent kidnapping and coercion. Similar actions, when done without force, are called “exit counseling”… [cont.] to counter the group. By the mid 1970s, as the Children of God and other new religious movements A new religious movement is a faith-based community, or ethical, spiritual, or philosophical group of recent origin. NRMs may be novel in origin or they may be part of a wider religion, such as Christianity, in which case they will be distinct from pre-existing denominations. Scholars studying the sociology of religion have almost unanimously… [cont.] grew and expanded around the world, a wider anti-cult movement developed in North America, Western Europe, and elsewhere. In the early 1980s many of the parent groups merged into what became known as the Cult Awareness Network The Cult Awareness Network was founded in the wake of the November 18, 1978 deaths of members of the group Peoples Temple and assassination of Congressman Leo J. Ryan in Jonestown, Guyana. CAN is now owned and operated by associates of the Church of Scientology, an organization that the original founders of CAN strongly opposed. Prior to its… [cont.], which is now owned by the Church of Scientology The Church of Scientology is the largest organization devoted to the practice and the promotion of the Scientology belief system. The Church of Scientology International is the Church of Scientology’s parent organization, and is responsible for the overall ecclesiastical management, dissemination and propagation of Scientology. Every Church of… [cont.].”
Tara | November 20, 2010 at 12:15 am |

DFB~Are you serious?! A little card with commands in lieu of reading DMSMH? WTF?!
Pingback: Top Posts — WordPress.com
metaqual | November 20, 2010 at 12:27 am |

Jeff – I have not read or heard of “Raven” until now, but I agree with you that the parallels are eerie as a result of watching this video. Substantiation means proof which consists of evidence. With Jonestown, there are several lines of evidence and I pointed to you one reference and one reference only as far as inviting you or others to look further.
I do not want to appear rude or patronizing here, and I will admit the MK-ULTRA connection to DM is only a theory because I cannot even substantiate it myself on any level. Jones I have no doubt about but it is pointless to argue. I desire others to look and maybe “we” can find a connection as a team (to DM). The correlation between CofS and Jonestown has been made convincingly. I would therefore expect a similar data trail with regard to Jones and DM (via MK-ULTRA type tech). Right now, this is only ASSUMED SIMILARITIES or perhaps better INUITED SIMILARIES.
Unfortunately, I do not have time to do a whole Jonestown roundup. I followed it on my own from the day it was reported on TV in 1978 and well before the G.O. ever got involved. Confront of evil is too low in man and equally so in Scientologists. Much evil is harbored in secretive government programs. It should never be disounted and my soap box is that it should not be overlooked with DM either or in the “cronies” that might take over when he leaves and I’m not referring to Marty as a “crony” but rather the lawyer team or whoever moves in.
I suspected DM was an SP in ’81 and knew it for sure by ’82. As you well know, you can’t convince onlines Scientologists or staff of this because they don’t look or don’t have enough data combined with experience to notice. After I was convinced LRH was not going to bust DM anytime soon, I left in ’83. It has taken others far too long to confront his evil and many needed first hand experience of violence. All I’m saying is there is more to the evil situation with Jones than just abuse and it can be found easily if one has the time.
More importantly, this MK-ULTRA theme to DM, I believe, is going to come up again and I will continue to bring it up, not “to be right” but as an act of vigilance. I would like others to be equally vigilant as well and thus I have made my point. Had we not communicated, the whole issue would not be so clear so thank you for making your communication.
metaqual | November 20, 2010 at 12:29 am |

To me, this is the “duh” factor. Read my post above to Jeff. The subject requires homework/reading, whatever.
Tara | November 20, 2010 at 12:30 am |

Jim~I do appreciate and expand from your windedness too! 🙂
metaqual | November 20, 2010 at 12:35 am |

I would like to hear more about how Flynn “helped” DM so to speak. If Marty’s book does not lay out the whole pattern with regard to the nefarious activities behind and/or associated with DM, and I am hopeful that it will, I think it would at the very least lay out a template so that various questions and investigations can be done. In other words, serve as a tool for finding out yet more.
metaqual | November 20, 2010 at 12:42 am |

Now….that is interesting. Please put it in the book!
RJ | November 20, 2010 at 12:44 am |

This supposedly what Jim Jones tried to do (though he didn’t have that far to go) before he was shot by one of his own guards.
lucy | November 20, 2010 at 12:49 am |

Yes, I have always posted under Lucy (no last name), and as far as I know from reading the comments on the blog, no one as stolen my identity!
Sapere Aude | November 20, 2010 at 12:50 am |

Jim;

Agreed. And all of the tech and policy is for the purpose of freeing beings. Melbourne congress lecture 6 of 8 Nov 1959

“The fate of any piece of knowledge man has ever been able to learn about himself, his society or this universe has sooner or later become subservient to some special interest with a curve on it to make more slaves. And this is one time when as long as I’ve got words in my mouth and breath in my thetan – this is one time when that curve isn’t going to happen. And that’s all I want your help in. We want to make sure that what we know never comes to serve some special interest for the subjugation of man.
…
All Dianetics and Scientology attempts to do is to undo the magic spell which has made people less than they want to be. And to do that it requires that some truth be known. And that the central and principal truths of man be known, merely as truths – not as pitches and curves to serve some different reason or purpose. And that information is its own best protector.
…
But, any time truth is put out, it has to be put out on a clean line. and it is itself and real truth runs itself out.
Knowing who you are – you know who you are, knowing what you are and knowing what you’re capable of, are to that degree masters of your own destiny, not slaves of somebody else’s destiny. and don’t you ever think you have to do something because – merely because I told you the truth sometime or another. You have no obligation on this line of any kind whatsoeve. You owe me nothing. That’s the way it is. It isn’t that you should or did or anything of this sort.
…
We must never let what we know get into a state whereby it itself is a tremendous number of “now-I’m-supposed-to’s.”
—
We should have no automaticity and we should have no slaves. We should as individual people apply the tech and better all involved.

That is what staff want and that is what I believe they signed on for. Truth on this blog and elsewhere is what will undo the aberration that has engulfed the current 3rd dynamic control of the true subject of Scientology. The KRC triangle shows how we can use knowledge to increase each and every Control point to restore sanity. No revolution, just do what LRH would have wanted us individually to do.

Thanks to all who post toward this end in mind. We keep the “Event Horizon” from ending this chance. (Event horizon – as in general relativity definition not the movie)
RJ | November 20, 2010 at 12:57 am |

Unfortunately he is serious Tara.

I remember the whole trend of Scientology for Dummies starting right after the Golden Age of Tech.

In fact I had one girl from the SO tell me how the Golden Age of Tech Drills had taught her so much!

Anyway after that.

Little cue cards came out on practically all the processes including book one I guess so you didn’t have to read the actual reference.

Problem was that most of them were altered or squirreled like the cancelor for example.

Of course you wouldn’t know this unless you read the actual source and compared the two which unfortunately few people did because it was easier to just do the drill.

Sadly though this is how the spawn of satan managed to take a highly workable subject like Scientology and send it circling around the bowl.
Jim Logan | November 20, 2010 at 1:06 am |

Yes, it sounded like he got a squirrelled up 10 Aug 73 HCOB with no items (out-list) and then a sort of Repeater Technique Lock Mushing(tm) with Extra Q&A ™.

Nice stylistic flourish with the Evaluation of Success ™at the end of the ‘sessions’.
theoracle | November 20, 2010 at 1:08 am |

But when I look at that possibility, that everyone is genious until they decide to be stupid, I have to ask myself, what intelligent being would postulate stupidity?
RJ | November 20, 2010 at 1:16 am |

I agree Sapere,

There was always this push by the AG PRs to promote religious tolerance and an effort to stop stigmatising sects as cults for obvious reasons but I don’t know of any particular alliance with the People’s Temple in particular except in amicus curiae.
Andy | November 20, 2010 at 1:36 am |

Jane,
I find your comment very much on point and something I have pondered on for a long time now. When I first arrived at CMOI I was 24. I was not highly trained and did not have a lot of staff experience. When I met the CO CMOI, I almost couldn’t believe my eyes. He was roughly my same age. In my mind I had this idea that the CO would be one of LRH’s right hand men – someone his own age or maybe just a little younger. Someone that was there with him in the late ‘50s early ‘60s, that had been working with him through the development of the subject. An LRH trained Class XII, OEC, FEBC – someone who had seen and done it all. Please don’t get me wrong, Marc Yeager was an extremely competent executive and I admire and respect him. I simply thought that the Exec at the helm of the church should have been a hard core tech terminal that moved over to management.
When you state that some of the young Eastern Europeans are now senior to the “older crew” I think you have spotted an out point. I think the younger, less experienced staff can be more easily molded into robotic machinery. Seemingly, applying the codes and policies of Scientology to the betterment of mankind, when actually applying reverse Scientology to the destruction of the church and thwarting the purposes of LRH.
Just some thoughts, thank you for your post.
Andy
Jim Logan | November 20, 2010 at 1:59 am |

Jeff,
You surely would recognize the term ‘cult’ as a ‘thought-stopper’. You actually wrote an article on ‘thought-stopping’ if I’m not mistaken.

Pro/Anti Cult – two choices in the sphere of thought seems kinda Two-Valued. Korzybski’s work on sematntics goes into this and Infinity Valued Logic.
theoracle | November 20, 2010 at 2:06 am |

Karen #1.

Interesting points indeed. As usual.

On the “He has held power for 25+ years.” I have a simple reason why. Nobody else was applying for the position.
I’ll explain:

It’s been a long time since I read it, But the definition of what a team effort is, is something like “Knowing what the others are doing and thinking and coordinating thereby and therewith.”
I think people saw DM as a teammate when he wasn’t.
Now, more than ever he is not there on the same terms and anyone else.
And I do not think anyone knew what HE was thinking and doing.
They assumed a lot.
You take ten guys from the villiage that get hungry. Nine of them run off to the coconut grove to get food. The tenth envisions something else and heads in the opposite direct of a different climate and returns with a banana.
Has anyone ever seen a “COB FULL HAT”? An “IAS BEGGAR FULL HAT”. A “RELIGOUS LEADER FULL HAT”.

The infrastructure of the CofS does not even approximate what Hubbard established or what existed under Hubbard.

The others that were there, were thinking with what Hubbard established and what worked which was a system of balances and checks and had a harmony and flow chart. They were thinking with being associated terminals in that game.

Who was trying to be a “RELIGIOUS LEADER” or “CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD” or any of the things DM is today?
He invented things and then became them.
Everyone else was still stuck in the original ideas of Hubbard’s they had been taught.
That one guy who ran off in the other direction and came back with a banana? Who stood in his way?
He just had a hidden agenda. You look at what he is today and what he does and what he pays himself and what he calls himself and tell me if there was ever anything like this that Hubbard put in the Church make up.

He is not there on the same terms as anyone else and nobody knows what he is doing and thinking. That’s not even competition.

Castro has held power in Cuba all these years because he was financed to do it by Russia. They pulled out and you should see what Cuba is today. http://www.mynews3.com/story.php?id=31714&n=5037

ALL that is keeping the Church from falling, is this begging network DM had established. DM isn’t even the source. Here is a list of the source of the current insanity the CofS has become, the “not too bright”. These are the people that keep cloaking the halls of poverty that exist:
——————————————————————————–

PLATINUM EXCALIBUR $20,000,000.00 (estimated)

Bob & Trish Duggan & Family

PATRON EXCALIBUR $15,000,000.00 (estimated)

Elizabeth and Michael Baybak & Family

PATRON LAUREATE $10,000,000.00

Richard & Amy Acunto
Bryan & June Zwan

DIAMOND MERITORIOUS $ 5,000,000.00

Alan & Sheila Atkinson-Baker
Craig & Sally Jensen

PLATINUM MERITORIOUS $ 2,500,000.00
The Dayton Family
Doug & Laurie Dohring
George Duggan & Megan Shields
Jeffrey Jonas
The Marian Kapusta Family
Larry & Margaret Leong
Kurt & Jenny Listug
Brandon & Angela Marion &Family
Ron & Mimi Pollack (Founding Platinum Meritorious)
The Sgroi- Clouden Families
Ali & Noor Shawkat
Farid Tabibzadeh
Juan D. Villarreal & Family
David & Bonita Wilson Family

GOLD MERITORIOUS $1,000,000.00 etc etc….

How stupid do you have to be, to think there is such a thing as an I.A.S. “registrar”, when there is only someone begging at your door?

How stupid do you have to be, to think that someone selling and delivering Scientology can’t survive by doing just that, when Hubbard passed away so wealthy from doing just that? And that Scientology “needs your donation” to survive? Talk about self importance buttons being lethal!

How stupid does DM have to be, to hog up all the power, all the spotlight, all the current fame and applause, all the cash, so when the bullets start flying they are all aimed at one person, Him.

I am simple person from the streets. But the further I move up I find it is “on the streets” everywhere I go. DM is just a successful pimp. How authentic is that? He is also just as criminal as someone from the streets, with the same methods of handling people. If you grow up in the ghettos, it hits you right in the face what he is and what he is doing.
And on the streets people do not get so complicated with words and imaginary ideas and suppositions. It’s always very simple math to figure out what is going on. It’s the simple thing that hits you in the face when people are looking for something “Hollywood” to explain it.

You find a woman dead, you go interview the husband. The math is usually that simple.

I do not see DM as an intelligent being. Just a pimp with a hidden agenda. Who else was in it for pimpship? So it goes over people’s heads. Who else is there with a hidden agenda? So it goes over people’s heads.

But it’s simple street life. DM is a Philly boy who grew up with his father as a musician. Hubbard trusted him to transport cash on trains. DM is street life. It is not that he has been underestimated. That is not his successful action. He has been overestimated.
And he too, is the effect of everything he is dependent upon. Which means he is total effect of the Sea Org, the CofS infrastructure, staff, public and all that they donate. How can someone the effect of all of that, have any room left to be intelligent? He depends on stupidity and he is the effect of that too.
theoracle | November 20, 2010 at 2:58 am |

As an aside, I read that he used Church funds to pull his Daddy out of a rape rap in Philly, and returned to Int and ran “holy holy holy” on the staff re: the 2D ever since.
Christie Collbran | November 20, 2010 at 3:01 am |

It’s not Lucy James, as far as I know. There are two Lucy’s on the blog. Lucy James started posting as Lucy James a while back after a new lucy showed up. I can tell the difference in their writing, but some others might not be able to.
Tony DePhillips | November 20, 2010 at 3:02 am |

Whether or not the Sea Org or any other part of the cult of miss cabbage ever off themselves, they are doing plenty to establish their cult-hood.
If right out of the gate I knew that “Scientology” was going to use my sins against me, enforce disconnection, enforce poor living habits on the Sea Org and drain me of tons of my income, I doubt I would have ever gotten one session. I can see how some might rationalize not telling people the bad things about the cult so you don’t scare them off the Bridge until they are more “dedicated” and know the value more. For me this justification does not wash.
The crazy franticness of miss cabbage was never needed and wanted by me. At least now I know who is generating the madness.
Brett | November 20, 2010 at 3:05 am |

The similarities between Scientology and People’s Temple are mind-boggling to some of us because we still are confronting our own involvement in a Church Gone Bad.

When you consider the definition of a “Church,” it is the people of the faith, NOT the buildings, the policies or even the Purpose.

And when the “Church” instills policies that are a contradiction to the well-being of the parishioner, you have a Church Gone Bad.

This is certainly the case with the current COS. Hayden made a good point that in terms of ruined lives and actual suicides that are most likely a lot higher in number than the press has been privy to, COS is much more dangerous than People’s Temple.

And when someone’s Intention is to GET COMPLIANCE by any means necessary and regardless if they think it will actually help the person they are seeking compliance from, then their personal Integrity is out, and with it goes control over self.

How far will you go?…
Brett | November 20, 2010 at 3:13 am |

How far will you go?…

To save the planet?…

To Help Mankind?…

To make sure LRH reaches every corner of the planet?

Or my personal favorite that was used on me when I did my Patron:

“Come on Brett, you need to take one for the team.”
lunamoth | November 20, 2010 at 3:13 am |

What are you talking about, RJ? Read my post and the ones immediately before for context.
RJ | November 20, 2010 at 3:14 am |

Sam,

The GO and HCO knew my antipathy to digging dirt up on PCs so they got to the point of not bothering to ask me any more.

I usually had pretty good stats and a good comm line with the Ol’man via his Tampa relay office at the time so I was pretty hard to kill.

They busted me off an exec post once even though I was posted by a WDC Mission by an ‘Urgent Directive’ once but by then the only game I wanted to play was being an auditor and I was tired of being an exec.

So in actuality they did me a favor.

I did notice that in the ’70’s and ’80’s there was at least some semblance of a respect for policy by senior terminals even in the GO.

Even though in many cases it was lip service by some.

In the ’90’s they basically ignored you or if you made too much trouble they’d find some way to make your existence there difficult by some weird third party action of some kind.

I remember an auditor of mine warning me that I shouldn’t be causing so much “trouble” and people treating me like I had the mark of Cane or something.

By the new millennium the gloves were totally off despite what it said in the KR about going after the person writing one.

I used to write a KR and in less than 48 hrs I’d either be in Qual or Ethics.

It was getting pretty wild.

I even got “roll back” on several of them as if writing up an outness was considered an “enemy line”.

Ethics was getting pretty squirrelly.

In fact the time I decided to get the f*ck outa Dodge was when they wanted to do a full “Ethics Invest” on me that even covered files that were cleared by previous Amnesties.

I basically told them to go f*ck themselves and took a long vacation from the Church of Squirrelotology.
Karen#1 | November 20, 2010 at 3:59 am |

TheOracle.
Great post !
RJ | November 20, 2010 at 4:23 am |

What I just wrote.

Substantiation is to present some kind of proof which Metaqual did by citing the following report:

Was Jonestown a CIA Medical Experiment?: A Review of the Evidence. New York: Edwin Mellen. ISBN 0-8894-6013-2.

However since you seem to be a priori adverse to any conclusion that goes beyond the lone nut theory you demand further substantiation and assert any evidence presented is merely implied.

Yet you don’t seem to make the same demands for anything else that aligns with your own conclusions on the matter.

Thus as far as I’m concerned it is a double standard.

For instance do you have any proof beyond mere conjecture and assumption that Jones acted alone and just by his personal charisma was able to convince close to 1000 people to committ suicide?
DFB aka Dfb99 | November 20, 2010 at 4:25 am |

And you are guilty of the overt of not disseminating. You havent been a good FSM and gotten floods of people in your org.

At some point, a couple years ago I guess, I realized I would not want someone to come to the org. I would not want to send a new public to the org or into Scientology. It would be an overt against them. My org doesnt even let people get going in Scientology before they throw them into an IAS event. As a result there are virtually no Div 6 public at any time. Any time a new person comes in and shows interest they are crush regged until they go away and change their phone #.
DFB aka Dfb99 | November 20, 2010 at 4:27 am |

That sounds familiar. Someone used to say that. Was it Ben Elkington?
Huckleberry | November 20, 2010 at 4:49 am |

I believe the idea is that all beings are good, not necessarily smart. As for why postulate stupidity, maybe the postulate came as a result of getting into trouble for “knowing too much”. Also, Implanters are expert at mixing up pictures so you think they’re yours.
J. Swift | November 20, 2010 at 4:54 am |

I look at David Miscavige in spiritual terms and see Kali Energy. This is not MEST energy; it is instead a spiritual energy of death and destruction. One example of DM exhibiting Kali energy is when he humiliated Int Base personnel by making them shovel out human excrement from the drained lakes that serve as part of the sanitation system. Making people handle feces is Kali energy, it is primitive debasement and humiliation, work performed only to feed DM’s cruelty. MK Ultra is not need to explain David Miscavige. He is a self-willed, perpetually depraved sadist. DM is perfectly capable of inflicting incredible cruelty on people without any outside stimulus.

Unlike the People’s Temple, Scientology faces an Onslaught from the internet and high-ranking former members who are free to speak out. The work has been to identify and expose David Miscavige as a spiritual criminal who has caused great ruin and destruction in the Church of Scientology. Aided and abetted by soulless, bloodless, greedy, morally depraved attorneys such as the monster Monique Yingling, David Miscavige has made CoS a Hell on Earth where even thirteen year old children work 40 hours per week for pennies. Remember: David Miscavige would not be possible without Monique and the other vampires that serve him. None of them will escape their Karma.

/////
RJ | November 20, 2010 at 4:56 am |

Thanks for the citation CD.
RJ | November 20, 2010 at 5:03 am |

biro,

I agree.

I couldn’t imagine a chicken shit like Miscavige going down in a hail of bullets either.

True rumors aren’t all that reliable but there was one about automatic weapons being on the Base.
Just Me | November 20, 2010 at 5:15 am |

Metaqual, where do you suggest one go to read/ do homework / whatever to verify the veracity of your claims?

“It has since been substantiated that Jones was a mind control dup. Mark Lane was the lawyer of the People’s Temple and is one of the most notoriously accused double agents of all time, also being a point man for JFK assassination theories.”

Just Me
haydn | November 20, 2010 at 5:16 am |

Tara,
Yes, great point. It didn’t hit me until I’d finished my thirty odd years on staff and began to live in the real world, how similar Miscavige’s fixation with hating Psychs was to Hitler’s hatred of Jewish people. It keeps the attention of the dwindling Scientology membership nicely focused on the external “enemy” who are to blame for everything of course. Interesting misdirector and generality and a disastrous one for the poor lady concerned.
RJ | November 20, 2010 at 5:17 am |

Profound!
Al | November 20, 2010 at 5:38 am |

Marty,

This relates to LDW saying that “Jim Jones is a punk compared to Miscavige when it comes to implant technology.” I just posted something written by Robert Dam http://www.robertdam-cos.dk/index.html on my blog. Credit is to him for this post entitled The Super Power Rundowns: Delivery Building or Implant Station? (I cleaned up some typos, minor grammatical errors) I don’t think this has been covered RE: Super Power on your blog, so use as you see fit:

The Super Power Rundowns: Delivery Building or Implant Station?

Written by Robert Dam http://www.robertdam-cos.dk/index.html

“On Friday 29 August 2003, 22:00 o clock, I attended a briefing about the Super Power Rundowns at AOSH EU. A briefing held by old-timer Scientologist and Sea Org member Allan Juvonen.

“It was a shocking experience to say the least.

“If you are a fairly sane and logical thinking person you are likely to not believe what I tell you in this chapter. Therefore I will start off with a quote from LRH (A History of Man):

“There is nothing as wild in the books of Man as will probably happen here on Earth. And it will happen and be allowed to happen simply because all this is so incredible that nobody will even think of stopping it until it is far, far too late. Its incredibility is its best safeguard, so you needn’t bother to convince anybody who doesn’t want to believe it. – LRH

“A little background on these auditing actions: Ron developed the Super Power Rundowns in 1978 the same year as NED and NOTs came out. A busy year indeed. The Super Power was considered very important, as they would affect the speed and success of Clearing the Planet. Ron ordered these rundowns released for immediate delivery. He considered it vital and urgent. A matter of fact is that today, 27 years later, the Super Power are still not delivered. Somebody changed the old mans order!!!

“But why this delay?

“First of all there is the story about the building. It was promoted that the Super Power would be such a huge success that Flag would need more space for the delivery. Publics was encouraged to donate money for the building. The auditing was withheld awaiting a building!!! This in itself is an out point of proportions knowing what Ron says about the need to HAVE before one can DO. I have never seen any reference from Ron that important auditing should be dependant on a physical building. That vital auditing actions should be delayed because it would create a boom, have you???

“This is also only the PR version from the Church. Of course it was quite a useful ‘sales talk’ because the Church didn’t pay for the building, the public did. At least those publics who bought the grossly out pointy explanation that a new building was needed because of a potential success!!!

“Well, first of all there is Management’s WW financial strategy of getting more real estate. This is the way the Church gets more assets and financial strength. Scientologists in the field donate money for a new building or for renovating an existing building. This happens all over the planet, Hamburg, Madrid, Copenhagen, San Francisco, New York, LA etc. etc. Also IAS invests the public’s donations into buildings. The staffs work around the clock without pay in order to pay the mortgage loans. But the buildings are NOT owned by the local orgs, they are owned by Church of Scientology International. See more info at http://www.robertdam-cos.dk/Cph%20exp%20pjt.html

“But the Super Power briefing shed light on one more vital reason why a new building was an absolute must:

“Super Power consist of various different Rundowns, 12 as far as I remember. One of them is called Theta Perception Rundown. A completely misleading name by the way as it is focusing on body perceptions. One of the steps of this rundown is to physically taste 2000 different flavours and to smell 1500 different scents. This is physical exercise, not much to do with theta perceptions. Then the PC will be seated in an electrical chair (not THE famous, but a chair with electrical features) developed in cooperation with NASA. This special chair was announced at several earlier Super Power briefings. Then the PC will face a giant screen, which flashes pictures at him with enormous speed. It will move towards and away from him. There will also be moving walls in the room.

“I was completely shocked by this information. Anybody who knows a little about LRH should instantly recognize that this ‘auditing’ could not possibly have been developed by him. Obviously the 27 years delay on these rundowns was used ‘creatively.’ Somebody has been tampering with the original LRH Super Power. To me it sounded like the perfect implant station. But the crowd applauded enthusiastically. It was like an automatic reaction ‘Wow, this is really fantastic,’ without at all considering what was just said. But it puts the need of a new building in another perspective. All these installations would hardly be possible to install in an existing and functioning building.

“Consider for a moment how between-life-implants are done, what you have studied about it from LRH. You will see that this Super Power ‘auditing’ is a perfect duplicate of implant procedures. It can therefore not be classified as auditing, but as implanting which is the opposite. A possible explanation for all the flavours and scents are that these are chemicals, and chemicals can be combined in a way that affects the thetan and the body. That is what drugs do. Now, having a person under the influence of chemicals and then putting him in the electric chair watching a giant screen flashing pictures at him while it moves closer, withdraws, moves closer etc. that is the perfect set-up for implanting. What commands he will be given I can’t say, but ‘obedience to the leader’ could be one”…
Tom M | November 20, 2010 at 5:51 am |

Haydn, there has been speculation back and forth about whether there could/would be a Jonestown Massecre at Int. I think it is highly possible, but different. The boy likes his guns and he would not be afraid to shoot anyone. Don’t forget, he already has plenty of blood on his hands. It would not surprise me if he blasted away at staff at Int – especially if he saw he was going down himself; he would blame the Int staff “SPs” under him and blast away if he thought he were going to jail anyhow.
This thought has been gnawing at me ever since we started this cycle. I fear for the staff at Int.

ML Tom
Theo Sismanides | November 20, 2010 at 5:57 am |

Hey Jim, you can always write and analyze things with a sharp eye.

Since all those pieces of work you have written here are full of wisdom taken out of the scriptures of LRH, combining them each time with enough NO automaticity (LOL!) as to get a decent and most valuable conclusion for each situation, I think you can write a book of your own collecting all those pieces you have written here on various aspects and situations we have dealt with.

My point here Jim, is…. and I need everybody’s help on this, the organizing of this Think – THETANS’ Tank we have now thanks to Marty and others. The o-r-g-a-n-i-z-i-n-g does not need to move anybody from his current “position” in space. But we have to move from our frame of mind that organizing is a bad or unnecessary thing.

Yes, you could be in Qual but I think you could also be, like Marty and many others here in the “Inspiration Section” of that Org Board. You speak logic and you speak truth.

All that I see now that is needed to UP our Efforts as Samuel said above, is to organize this thing and the least of effort is needed since we do operate as OTs now with what we all know.

LRH was a philosopher, an applied one. I see you wearing this hat quite good, interpreting the situations through rather profound philophical writings and explanations based on the Refs of the man, that inspire me and others. The only flaw here is that there is no flow big enough and adequate enough to produce a bigger effect.

I would like to see this writing of your’s as an JimCO PL (Hahaha) issued by the Indies with a date and some color flash (hahaha) because it is a master piece. Some graphics designer guy or even someone could make it colored on Word and put a date and you can approve it and sign it, hahaha.

Then it can circulate in a more “formal form” and become an issue of the Indy Ammunition.

Hahaha, I just woke up and I am full of goodies. This is a master piece of philosophical explanation done by Jimbo.

Hopefully you get my point on the Org Boarding thing. Nothing happens without some alignment of the dynamics. We got to up our efforts by becoming more formal and not be afraid to SHOW OFF! PR, BROAD COMM LINES, FORMALITIES (without AUTOMATICITIES, function is senior to structure, but some structure needs to be there, a light one).

I think we are arriving to that point where Admin will be acked as the one thing that can bring it off after Ethics and Tech exist and are applied. Admin is not a separate thing but it is there to help Ethics and Tech and they go hand in hand.

Again this is a masterpiece by the modern philosopher Jim L. Thank you indeed, you give me a great start for the day! What wall? Hahaha!
Karen#1 | November 20, 2010 at 6:02 am |

Cool Samuel, excellent points…
DFB aka Dfb99 | November 20, 2010 at 6:08 am |

This was in the 90’s. I think it was the HDA course or the Seminar where you got the little card that said something like “Have the PC close his eyes”, say “TITS”, give cancellor, say “Find an incident you can comfortably face”. Give 3 half acks, two FULL acks and then say “END OF SESSION”.

Something like that.

Hey, do you know anything about the new HDA course? Professional Dianetics Auditor Course or whatever it’s called. I was drilling with some people on it while I was in the org every night on my basics and man, the drills are terrible. Just terrible and causing a lot of upset with everyone I saw on the course (two people). It’s got a binder with those GAT drills, but they are really bad.
Theo Sismanides | November 20, 2010 at 6:11 am |

At Cause, I agree and this is what we should be looking at. After all

ALL SCIENTOLOGISTS CURRENTLY IN THE C OF M HAVE BEEN SPIRITUALLY MURDERED OR HAVE COMMITTED SUICIDE! PERIOD! They are not alive as spirits anymore! The Massacre has already happened for me! Spiritually they are ALL dead!
Theo Sismanides | November 20, 2010 at 6:18 am |

Jim, I will be posting this at various places since it IS worth reading: All Scientologists in the C of M have been SPIRITUALLY murdered or committed suicide. We lost the orgs, we lost the church, it belongs to someone else not to the Scientologists anymore. This is the Real Massacre and it has already happened.
Theo Sismanides | November 20, 2010 at 6:21 am |

Erwin, very interesting, I, too, analyze things like this. And you know what? We live in an era where ALL SPs around the Globe are at CAN’T HIDE! Isn’t that interesting? Look, at the Globalization, Global Enslavers as LRH called them… They are at Can’t Hide, people revolt against them, don’t go to vote in masses as they did, they have understood their hidden actions and agenda. DM is one of them. It’s the Era of Light and we are the Warriors of Light and Truth!!!
Theo Sismanides | November 20, 2010 at 6:24 am |

Michael, thank you. So simply said and yet so powerful thought!!!
thetalibre | November 20, 2010 at 6:31 am |

I am sooo happy tonight!
Finally my wife had a different point of view instead of the one inside.
It goes like this: Babe! i am sure that yourself have observed some out points in the church… you will have to make your own conclusions about what is happening right now! “yes i know….but…hmmm” By the time that she was doing her laundry, Babe i give you the opportunity to bypass all the internet research on the subject… so just listen to this ok?…. “hmmm…hmmm” So, i just start to read

Mr. David Miscavige, COB RTC <—————- Nov 6th,2010
__________________________________
Luis A Garcia, Public Scientologist

Bla, Bla, bla and so on…. "Yes but hmmm bla,bla,bla" ok, i continu and so on…."I remember this bla,bla,bla and that bla,bla,bla…but hmmm" ok, i continu… …" Ho my god ! this is so true … let me read it! ok!
End Phenomena…. A big smile an a kiss
Thank you Mr. Garcia for your effort to let this letter out available for every one!
Thanks to all of you here debating on this incident !
And, a special thanks to Marty Rathbun who made this communication available to all of us.
Quote by Sapere Aude
"But, any time truth is put out, it has to be put out on a clean line"
You are doing a really good job!

ML
p.s sorry for my poor English, i am French!
nancy many | November 20, 2010 at 6:37 am |

I have read many books and documentaries on the Jonestown debacle. There are even more similarities that are on the Video.
A) Jim was always going down south, but when the CofS FBI raids hit, he shifter gears and well flat out to get his “group” down to Jamestown.

B) He had an RPF of his own, I don’t know what they called it, but it had tremendous similarities to todays RPF or even the RPF down there —Isolation, Different clothing, Manual Labor
and the ever present guards.

c) he had an intelligence branch that worked very similarly to
the ones the GO/OSA had.

The similarities are deep.
nancy
Tony DePhillips | November 20, 2010 at 7:00 am |

How about you are one of the 10,000 that can do some leading? They used to toute us on Solo Nots as if we were the chosen ones to get us idiots to cough up more and more money. EEGADS!!
tunedal | November 20, 2010 at 7:23 am |

Yes there are many similarities but there are also differences, as I am sure you know. The main difference is us, I believe, so it is up to us to see a different ending to this Miscavige cult disaster.
Sam | November 20, 2010 at 8:39 am |

Ahh I see.
Well the sentiment remains exactly the same for the ‘other’ Lucy.
Antoine | November 20, 2010 at 9:43 am |

Hay hay .. I say it first!! Savage needs to be stuffed and turfed off the top the Freewinds! … Weeeeeeee…. he he.
Antoine | November 20, 2010 at 9:45 am |

the Cartoon. hillarious satire!
George | November 20, 2010 at 9:54 am |

RJ,
I will try to find out more about it. In 1983 I observed in my org things I concluded that behind it is some implant technology. This had been done by a CMO Int mssn in the org. I took the post of Ethics Officer to trace it back to its source. I could not see or feel DM at this time and had to give up as I had been removed and almost declared. Since that time I try to find out more about this whole situation but without much success. My purpose in that is to clean up my third dynamic. Now this above gave me some clous I never had thought about. I always looked into the wrong direction. More or less “outside influences”. I could not imagine that the terminal that is the source of all this could be our top man. For now this is all theory. I have to pick up the past commlines and follow that through. As I am not on any OT level and as I still need my body I have to be carefull. But I hope I can make some progress now. My idea since then had always been that we have to clean that mess up some day in the future. We cannot just ignore it. Ok, it is more or less the responsibility of those who had been inside this mess at that time and not of those that came later into scientology or staff. I will try my best I can to clean that up.
hewhowas | November 20, 2010 at 9:55 am |

At which point is a person dead? Isn’t he dead, when all he can think of day and night is how to pay all the mortgages, the credit card bills, etc. which he maxed for the “greater good”? — Do session wins not get reduced to the occasional “fix” to keep you on the needle? An L1C a day? How can anyone become cause over life, when the registrars are cause over their wallets?

I think a thorough survey would reveal a shocking number of the “living dead”. And the master of horrors rides his bike side by side with that actor, I forgot his name.
Bryon | November 20, 2010 at 1:09 pm |

“It’s the Bank that says the group is all and the individual nothing.”

LRH, KSW Series 1
Jim Logan | November 20, 2010 at 1:26 pm |

oracle,
And with that question, you are getting closer to the Truth.
Jim Logan | November 20, 2010 at 1:31 pm |

THAT is NOT AUDITING. That is a cue card machine. That is a circuit that restims the person and leaves him there. That is Black Dianetics BY DEFINITION.
Jim Logan | November 20, 2010 at 1:37 pm |

thetalibre,
Ce n’est pas de problem, your Henglish! That communicated perfectly. Well done!

Yeeeee Fuckin’ Haaaaaaaa!!! Pardon my French 🙂
Jim Logan | November 20, 2010 at 1:52 pm |

t,
Good point. The future is our open canvas. We make our tomorrow.

Bodies age, thetans agree, space shrinks and doing fades to having. Having is MEST, not doing, not being. Being is space and the postulates of the future make the future, extending new points to view, a new arrangement of points.

Cause is motivated by the future.

Like Marty pointed up on Casablanca Tejas with RJ 37 – the truth does dispel the lies. The actual subject is the truth – DM’s suppressive squirrelling and authoritarian state is an alteration of the subject. Hit the truth, and with that as-isness, and the lies go ‘poof’.

As DM’s circle of influence shrinks (mechanically because he’s on ‘have’ and objects and ‘have’ isn’t ‘doing’ or ‘being’. ‘Have’ is condensed space and energy, be and do. DM’s Ideal Orgs are pure ‘have’ and having isn’t doing) the independent field expands. The independent field is BE and is DOING.

First of the coming year I’m setting up to do cramming, retreads and retraining as needed and wanted. South of the border – where it’s warmer!
OnceUponaTime | November 20, 2010 at 2:14 pm |

Jim,

Long winded? Were it not for the wind, what would fill our sails?

Who has seen the wind,
Neither you nor I,
But when my ears are bending back,
Dear Jim is passing by.

Michael
Jim Logan | November 20, 2010 at 2:24 pm |

Tom M,
I can certainly see DM as ‘dead right’.

As this rat gets more and more cornered, and with no Step A of A-E actually done, that is, a recognition of overts, he’ll be as nutsoid as can be imagined, and with his survival under seige, and the literal mortal terror of ‘wrongness’ he’ll assert ‘rightness’ and…

Let’s hope he’s secure in his bunker so the ricochets are isolated.
Old school | November 20, 2010 at 2:28 pm |

There ARE/were semi-auto assault rifles. AR-15’s & the like. Legal.
Tony DePhillips | November 20, 2010 at 2:32 pm |

Hey DFB,
The same at the Seattle Org when I was there. (not that long ago) I tried telling them about it, but would they listen?? Hell no.
The last selectee I brought in started a div 6 course. The next time I talked to her she said she felt like she was surrounded by used car salesmen. I couldn’t argue with her.
Anna | November 20, 2010 at 2:41 pm |

While I agree that there are tremendous parallels between Jones and DM, I am not sure that it would be accurate to extend the similarities between the two groups beyond the rather isolated and secretive world of Int. As a public member of many years, I have been shocked beyond belief by what is posted by ex-Int staff about the madness that prevails. I had NO idea. NONE. My experiences were with smiling staff at Flag and an ever increasing demand on my time and wherewithal.

Still, I had a first-hand experience with a couple of people I knew circa 1981-2 that really weirded me out. They called me up and told me that they were going to some port in Los Angeles or Portland (don’t remember now) and they were going to board the space ship that was arriving to pick them up and take this once in a lifetime opportunity to get off this planet. wTF??? They were both long time Scientologists and they had been in communication with some group related somehow to David Mayo – although they didn’t say he was actually part of this group. The whole thing was utterly confusing to me and they were clearly electrified. Many months later I saw them again and they told me nothing happened when they got there.

It is easy to discount stories of MKULTRA and CIA involvement and all the weird government conspiracy information, and I tended to do that right up until I read this article in the Times magazine about the Army investing $4 million in “thought” communication helmets. Here’s the article: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1841108,00.html. There’s a bit more information on it at this URL too: http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2010-09/darpa-wants-mind-control-keep-soldiers-sharp-smart-and-safe

Sketchy information but clearly the line of development into mind control continues.

I am a little freaked out about the comment above about how one of the Super Power processes was developed in conjunction with NASA?!? Especially when read against the Army/DARPA articles.
Joe Pendleton | November 20, 2010 at 2:45 pm |

Yeah Tony, when a group/church starts to enforce/prohibit communication (this includes reading), robs people of their assets (and thus partially of their ability to be self-determined), gets into heavy “can’t do” and punishments on the 2D (which for the public, ALWAYS includes having to pay tons of cash), imprisons its own staff, usually for political reasons, “ya got trouble”, whether we call it a “cult” or something else, “a rose by any other name is still a rose” as the saying goes.

The very insidious part of this process though is that one seems to have had to experience a REALLY “not haveable” amount of force or coercion to take a look at his. This has happened to you and to me and mostly everyone who posts here. That didn’t happen to me until I was in the church for 35 years. But when it’s done “on a gradient”, it is very easy to go into agreement with all this, “bit by bit.” I am in comm with a number of people on lines who are still doing this. I don’t have answer or remedy to this except to keep exposing/communicating the truth .
Just Me | November 20, 2010 at 2:50 pm |

I love the waxwing in their fall flocks. November migrations. New beginnings.

Just Me
OnceUponaTime | November 20, 2010 at 3:06 pm |

LDW,

You’re a thetan after my own heart.

After reading your comment and Theoracle’s, I had to pause. Why is evil so hard to confront? I’m an old implanter with a long, long illustrious career in that field. So I’ve had some experience with this stuff: how to create a non-confront.

The thing about thetans is they’re pretty simple. Affinity, reality and communication basically comprise theta. As a potential, A, R and C precede the creation of viewpoints and space and energy. Even without viewpoints, theta has the capacity for affinity, reality and communication that exists at the level of a “static.” Even though the communication formula has cause distance effect, thetans can transfer knowingness without interposing distance–which is the purest of communications. And theta has reality without matter, energy, space or time. And theta has this native affinity for theta.

Theta natively is benevolent towards other theta. Theta natively seeks the well being of other theta. Theta likes theta.

But evil is like anti-theta.

Sure thetans go to war with one another and get upset with one another and try to bash each other into mush. But, handle the ARC breaks and overts and problems and it’s buddy-buddy again. Because we basically have affinity for one another.

But evil is anti-affinity, anti-reality, anti-communication. And evil operates at such a profound level of unreality for most of us that we just have trouble perceiving it. As thetans, we try to understand others in terms of normal theta ARC. So we alter-is and not-is the intentions, postulates and actions of evil. It’s just hard to imagine another thetan actually doing this stuff.

Confront is the ability to perceive and experience something. But evil creates such a beach in ARC that we fail to actually perceive and experience what is actually occurring. We rationalize and justify it. Alter-is and not-is.

And even though all of us have done some pretty evil things, we clean up pretty easily with auditing. Truly evil beings do not clean up so easily. Such a being can’t easily confront what they are and how they got that way. Nor can they confront the wrongness of what they have been doing. For them, what they are doing is right and justifiable. They don’t have overts. All you’re going to get a read on with them is about something that will get them in trouble, something that will get them punished. It’s not the overt that reads but the threat of punishment or backlash (my opinion here.)

Another observation about suppressives, not all suppressives are truly evil. Some have simply fallen into the trap of their own righteousness in trying to bring order to the “chaos” of thetans. For such beings, control is the centerpiece of their behavior not destruction. Evil suppressives are intent on destroying. They want to destroy aesthetics and understanding and creativity and all things which theta natively values. The worst want to bring about the cessation of all life and consciousness. Including their own. Societies and worlds controlled by these types are very bleak and uninviting.

So, in my experience, confronting evil is far harder than confronting stupidity. Not that confronting stupidity is an easy thing. Just matters of degree.

Michael
lookingin | November 20, 2010 at 3:07 pm |

Rory, Does this shoe drop have any relation to your comm some months ago re your knowledge of t’s being crossed and i’s dotted to ensure a successful confrontation with dm and the current scene? That comm got my attention and I am hoping that it is going as you thought.
Lady Minn | November 20, 2010 at 3:09 pm |

Dear Jim,
For a long time, the issue of the Scientology Moral Codes was the issue that kept me from speaking out. Everytime I would post on this blog, I would feel like I had committed an overt. It also kept me from becoming an Indedependent. I am so glad that you have identified this area, because I know what an effect it had on me, and it must affect others, too. Your commemt made me realize that I had spent 39 years agreeing to that moral code, and it does create a “wall” that one can bump into when contemplating Independence. Your remarks about PURPOSE being senior helped a lot. This is very useful for talking to and dealing with those still in who are considering disagreeing with the Kool Aid. Thank you so much for identifying and handling this issue. It is very important.
Love always, Catherine
Th
Jim Logan | November 20, 2010 at 3:21 pm |

Theo,
I understand your point on organizing. As far as I’m concerned, the Organizing Series, as the fundamentals, are the simplicity of this.

I’ve recently (like the last few days) finally understood another simplicity – having to have before you can do. Now, this isn’t to take the wind out of your sails either, but, ‘having’ is NOT ‘doing’. This is where the Ideal Morgue thing falls down. It’s ‘having’ a MEST building. It isn’t DOING Scientology. One could argue it’s putting anchor points out and establishing space – Be, but as it’s done by DM that ‘Be’ isn’t the case. It’s just a collection of objects, with no life in them. Life is the source that extends out points and thus creates space. Objects are not life.

Looking over the Church and the orgs, from Upper Management on down, and all the policy that exists, and what has become of all this, I see way more ‘have’, more MEST, than Being, and Doing.

That’s a frailty in any organization I think; that it ends up as something that is no longer a present time place of being and doing, but is put on ‘auto pilot’ as a ‘have’, as some object that will accomplish the aims of the thetans creating it.

In the case of what Scientology’s purpose is, the org can’t be an automaticity that produces un-automaticitied beings. It isn’t a robotic assembly line. LRH tried to point this up in various places by urging ‘live orgs’ (PL 23 Oct 63 in Vol 3), indicating all the ‘rules’ (the automaticities) are there ONLY to serve the purpose and when that machinery gets in the way, toss it, and deliver (DO).

Live orgs are beings, doing. Dead orgs are MEST and machinery. (A machine being something set up to run by itself and with the being at effect of it, not cause over it. Any automaticity is set up to effect the being and need only be taken over as cause to return cause to the being. That’s expressed succinctly in COHA R2-31.)

The CofS is dead to the degree that it is on auto pilot – i.e., slavish obedience to ‘policy’ or GAT and so on, with zero observation in present time by live beings and judgement. I suppose this is the fate of anything broadly agreed upon in that it somewhat ‘MESTifies’.

MEST determines the being’s location in this case. That’s ass backwards to the Qs. That’s ‘reverse Scientology’.

DM killed the Cof S to the degree he entered in automaticity and nothing better expresses that than GAT or the machine-like enforcing of the automaticity of the moral code as ‘what I’m supposed to’s’ . He’s introduced a Div 6 that is machinery. Apparently he’s put out ‘cue card’ auditing that is in violation of Axiom 51: POSTULATES AND LIVE COMMUNICATION NOT BEING MEST AND BEING SENIOR TO MEST CAN ACCOMPLISH CHANGE IN MEST WITHOUT BRINGING ABOUT A PERSISTENCE OF MEST. THUS AUDITING CAN OCCUR.

I agree that associated terminals with lines for cooperative action/doing, are needed to make a larger movement and greater gain possible. A ‘large’ organization is composed of groups. Those groups, if they maintain present time being and doing, and don’t put it on a machine-will-audit-clear basis, that is, violate Axiom 51, and become an automaticity outside the control of the beings (remember, that’s what an automaticity is set up to be) will be effective.

Presently I think there’s lots of us enjoying the hell out of the freedom to be and extend out points and do stuff with them, and not be condensed down into the objects that DM has led the church toward (GAT IS machinery, ‘policy’ has become the other-determinism of an automaticity sans observation and judgment).

The ‘next time around’ on the orgs, which is at hand with all that’s going on, let’s not substitute a machine where a thetan should be. Organize lightly, else it becomes too solid and an object.

Scientology orgs aren’t ‘objects’, they are actually beings, doing. That’s the whole point of the fallacy of ‘having to have before you can do’.
LO | November 20, 2010 at 3:29 pm |

Theo,

Didn’t you want to organize an Independents Conference in summertime on a nice Greek island ?
I would love it !
And I think many others here too ! But without any stones throwing !
Just Me | November 20, 2010 at 3:37 pm |

DFB, this whole ‘auditing cue card’ sub-thread re ‘auditor’ cue cards is so difficult for me to grok. DM should just go ahead and turn auditing into a $995 board game called “WogCog!” complete with dice the pc can roll and read from pre-written ‘my incidents’ and ‘my perceptions’ cards. The winner is first to use up all his cards. When you buy three games, you gets a free ruds accessory package. If you buy before New Year’s you also get the ‘Lord’s Supper / Passover’ special, complete with Mogen David wine and matsoh crackers.

So this is what Corporate Scientology has come to.

Just Me
lunamoth | November 20, 2010 at 3:38 pm |

RJ, put down the crack pipe. I didn’t make any conclusions nor am I promoting a double standard. Who are you arguing with (or does it not matter)? My comments here are limited to the meaning of “substantiation.” Read the whole thread, please, RJ, including WHO is speaking.
LO | November 20, 2010 at 3:54 pm |

Thetalibre,

Ton gain est formidable. Ta femme est vraiment un thetan libre. Laisse la savoir qu’elle a tres bien fait. Et peut etre un de ces jours on se recontrera.
je te souhaites un bon weekend ! 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
ExIntStaffMember | November 20, 2010 at 4:22 pm |

I saw the video and the parallels are indeed chilling. I worked at Int for many years and have seen DM up close doing the violent and vile things others have reported in Marty’s blog. Thus, I feel somewhat qualified to offer my take on the comparison between Jonestown and Int under DM. As long as DM feels like he can continue to get away with his abusive actions, there will be no mass-murder (I don’t view Jonestown as a mass-suicide) taking place at Int. If, however, DM feels he has no hope of escaping his fate (like a long-term jail sentence with Bubba as his cell mate), he might feel he has no other option than to top himself. I think this is the position JJ himself felt he was in when a US Senator was about to leave Jonestown with some disaffected ex-followers. DM, in one last insane ser-facing spasm, just might think, much as JJ must have thought, that if he has to go, then the rest of the “treasonous bastards” have to go too. The “suicides” in Jonestown were enforced at gunpoint, and the same would have to be done at Int — preferably after the staff had been kept up for several nights with no sleep. However, if it got that bad, I would only hope that one of the armed terminals at Int would use his weapon to stop DM’s insanity right there on the spot and turn him in to the authorities. So, yes, I do think DM is insane enough to attempt a Jonestown if he is completely cornered. I also think that might be the exact point where some people at Int wake up and finally take action to stop him. Marty is completely correct in sounding the alarm on the situation at Int. Just my two cents.
Hallelujah | November 20, 2010 at 4:45 pm |

theoracle — Wow … Quite a comment! Nice False Data Stripping. You state: “I think people saw DM as a teammate when he wasn’t.” So true. H
tunedal | November 20, 2010 at 4:54 pm |

Thank you Jim,
Good news on your plans.
We started our own independant anti-psych campaign last week.
Hallelujah | November 20, 2010 at 5:06 pm |

thetalibre — Congratulation! I share your happiness and I’m sure many, many others do too!! Hallelujah!
Hallelujah | November 20, 2010 at 5:08 pm |

newhowas — You state, “I forgot his name.” Hilarious statement! H
Heather G | November 20, 2010 at 5:09 pm |

Wonderful news, thetalibre! Congratulations to you and your wife.
Sam | November 20, 2010 at 5:17 pm |

thetalibre
I’m so happy for you!
Congratulations and best wishes. You communicate perfectly in any language.
Karen B | November 20, 2010 at 5:22 pm |

Your last paragraph brought up a scary thought when one looks at the controlled communiation and disconnection policies, people just simply disappear (permanently).
OTDT | November 20, 2010 at 5:24 pm |

I guess I’m stuttering.
OTDT | November 20, 2010 at 5:26 pm |

My comments kept disappearing and so I kept rewriting and reposting. Oh well. Sorry for the repeating.
Karen B | November 20, 2010 at 5:29 pm |

I too, have a big smile on my face (and a tear in my eye) after reading your post.

This is what it’s all about! TRUTH. Communicated far and wide. Yeah!
Karen B | November 20, 2010 at 5:33 pm |

Really?? That would be fantastic!! 🙂 🙂
hadley | November 20, 2010 at 5:35 pm |

Dean Blair
I Certaintly Support your view on this, Its almost an exact copy
of Jim Jones Regim. Yes what ever can be done to raise the awarenss to those still in there, and by what ever way possible in some form of communcation that can get in there# to those some what half sane But workin g with them under a PTS situation of this magnitude is hard.What can we do ?
hadley | November 20, 2010 at 5:40 pm |

Yes on this I would like to know also It unbeleivable this carry’s on , the next think we are going to see is another Jim jones ending or the likes of a Dave Korish Style Burn out God Forbid , Could I say I had been in that I don’t know how o think I was, let alone with those still in side and going down with DM aswell.
hadley | November 20, 2010 at 5:41 pm |

Some explanations are needed and well put
hadley | November 20, 2010 at 5:45 pm |

Yr right on the Money Jom
hadley | November 20, 2010 at 5:47 pm |

I share your views Jim
hadley | November 20, 2010 at 5:49 pm |

Garcia Letter was the best I ever saw to the point and details specifics
and I ackneledge him for his courage
Huckleberry | November 20, 2010 at 5:58 pm |

Agreed, JLo. It’s Scientology for Dummies which to the “reasonable” seems like you’re making the Tech widely available, yet the real SPs know what they’re actually doing is destroying the Tech. The scene is far more degraded than I thought. This woman’s a Freedom Medal winner – whatever that means these days. The point is she should be a better auditor than that.
TEG | November 20, 2010 at 6:00 pm |

ExInt,

I agree with your take on this. I’ll point out that it’s a short path from 1.1 to .5 (apathy) on the tone scale. The scenario you’ve indicated could easily kick the little sociopath into the suicide band as seen on the Chart of Human Evaluation. My two cents.

Tom
Martin | November 20, 2010 at 6:05 pm |

The Welsh border? South of Watford preferred.
Huckleberry | November 20, 2010 at 6:06 pm |

Why not Fly Ruds? That alone is going to bring tremendous case gain to anyone.
martyrathbun09 | November 20, 2010 at 6:08 pm |

I agree with your assessment.
thetalibre | November 20, 2010 at 6:25 pm |

The vampire begins to shrivel! DM continued to look in the sky … these rays are the truth and eventually always wins!

Here it is… my real group!
Those who are free to communicate with each other, and this is what’s FREEDOM is all about!
Tears of joy
Love you all my friends!
Jim Logan | November 20, 2010 at 6:30 pm |

Anna,
“Super Power processes was developed in conjunction with NASA?!? ”

Errrr, I missed that piece of nonsense in the postings. This is ridiculous, I hope you see that. It’s on par with your previous description of the ‘space ship exit’ = ‘what wall?’ is a good place to start.
Tara | November 20, 2010 at 6:34 pm |

TOTALLY BLACK 😦 And right at the Intro level, low price point entry to the Bridge.
Tara | November 20, 2010 at 6:40 pm |

😦 I’m still gobsmacked.
OSA | November 20, 2010 at 6:49 pm |

This whole thread is black dianetics against Miscavige. Think about it.

Not that it is a bad thing, but if being done, needs to be done consciously.

I see a lot of fairly robotic agreement in the replies here, agreeing that “A” Jonestown, equals “A”, Int/miscavige/currentchurch. Whereas Ron says discriminating differences is the higher form of intelligence. But when a person replies with differences, the group seems to negate it.

Exact truth, not agreement, causes vanishment. If you want to “AS-IS” Miscavige, the exact and whole truth is needed, not what is easy for all to agree with.

ml
theoracle | November 20, 2010 at 6:50 pm |

Thanks .
Karen B | November 20, 2010 at 6:58 pm |

I think this is true in most orgs. Stevens Creek had the same problem. Orders from management to get them to events, enforced by EDs etc.
theoracle | November 20, 2010 at 6:59 pm |

Good point. But an intelligent being would be smart enough to figure out if he got into trouble, it was because he didn’t know enough. The “Bright Think” rundown pulls some mystery off of stupidity as a condition. I see stupidity as a condition. Very much connected to being out of communication. But still there is an element of capability and no two beings are the same. I think there will always be differences in people when it comes to intelligence and capability. No matter how much auditing and communicating prevails.
atcause | November 20, 2010 at 7:10 pm |

That’s an interesting way of looking at it.
Cat Daddy | November 20, 2010 at 7:12 pm |

You are welcome RJ. OSA asisted that “Children of God” cult in Australia back in the 90-ties.
Cat Daddy | November 20, 2010 at 7:17 pm |

Yes Yingling and Moxon are David Miscaviges shield. Wich operates better than Miscaviges paper sword OSA.
Just Me | November 20, 2010 at 7:17 pm |

Jim, congratulations on your plans. Wonderful to hear this.
JM
WindWalker | November 20, 2010 at 7:25 pm |

atcause

You said:
“I don’t think the idea was to infer that Miscavige’s inner circle are all going to commit suicide. I don’t think it will come to that.”

I agree, for the most part.
It seems to me that the idea of a “mass suicide” would be mostly “out reality” at this point for most Scientologists. However, having seen a documentary that showed Jim Jones “at work”, (” Jonestown” I believe it was called) with apparently real footage, ) and then comparing that to David Miscavige’s current activities, it is very unsettling in the similarities.

I actually doubt that, except for a very few, any of the people at Jonestown would have considered committing suicide even hours before it was presented as a “solution” to their “problem”. Jim Jones, and others, had to use persuasion, coersion, threats of violence ( men with loaded rifles, some of whom had already gunned down [at the airstrip] some people who were trying to leave and had been told they were free to do so), promises of “a better life in heaven”, and outright lies about the situation that they were in. These people were already so thoroughly individuated, restimulated, dominated, bullied, brainwashed and indoctrinated, that it was scary. If my memory serves me, the whole “mass suicide” debacle played out within a couple of hours of being presented to the group.

As far as everyone freely and willingly suiciding at Jonestown, that is totally impossible if for no other reason than that at least some of the victims were babies and young children who had no idea what they were doing. They were murdered.

I do not believe we are in for a mass suicide but the “cult mentality” is a very unpredictable force. It can be a veritable juggernaut once set into motion.

WW

WW
Just Me | November 20, 2010 at 7:29 pm |

OTDT,

Lo these many (nearly 25) years later, you just made an obvious interpretation of DM’s bullshit on that awful night: LRH committed hari kari. Therefore, we might all be asked to do so one day.

Sometimes I’m slower than I wish I were.

Just Me
Cat Daddy | November 20, 2010 at 7:34 pm |

Funny Troll is funny. Let’s keep this one :).

Alsoo not reCOGnizing simularities makes for poor AWAREness.

Jim Jones=Cult Leader and David Miscavige=Cultleader

ABUSE is happening as well as ENSLAVEMENT.
DFB aka Dfb99 | November 20, 2010 at 7:43 pm |

Yeah, at the event where COB released the “new” Dianetics seminar he made a weird comment about that. When you do the new seminar you watch the video and start auditing. Then you can come in as much as you want for free and co-audit.
He said something to the effect of they will eventually cognite that they are grinding away and that they need to get on to more expensive services.

I wish I had copies of some of the events. I’ve seen every one for years up until about six months ago.
I was just watching the “Basics” event (…the TRANSCRIPTIONIST) and I swear it is hard to watch certain parts without going a little anaten and it’s not from MU’s, and I think I’m pretty flat on watching them and the whole style and everything. I had to sit there and watch the whole events because I used to do the projection and sound. When they go to all the quickly flashing images and techno music it’s hypnotic in a way. Theres just something very strange when you watch these events now. That point where you feel you have to applaud COB at the end of sentences. The whole event was about him. He took credit for everything .
He said that KSW was impossible before the release of the Basics. That no Scientologists really understood Scientology before the Basics. Maybe he can sell stuff at the mall with the Sham-Wow guy after he is impeached. He’s pretty good at it.

Ok, I’m rambling a bit.
RJ | November 20, 2010 at 7:47 pm |

I agree.
Jeff | November 20, 2010 at 7:49 pm |

Sometimes my satire doesn’t come across. I simply considered it ironic that the term “anti-cult” would be used derogatorily on this blog where, as far as I can tell, most of the people are anti-cult.
DFB aka Dfb99 | November 20, 2010 at 7:50 pm |

I’m pretty sure it was in the old Dianetics “Self Improvement Kit” from the mid to late 90’s. I may have one somewhere I should scan it. Parts of it were totally arbitrary. One command was something like “Locate an incident you can comfortably face”.
I dont know where that is in DMSMH. Is that from NED or something?
WindWalker | November 20, 2010 at 7:55 pm |

DFB

I have never been in close contact with David Miscavige, but from the things that he has been doing (according to eye witness reports) I have assumed the viewpoint that he is very unlikely to kill himself at this point. Perhaps eventually, but I suspect that he feels that he can outsmart everyone and just “bug out” and take his favorites into hiding. If he does that then those with him will be in grave danger, because sooner or later, if he is backed into a tighter and tighter corner, he might well “reason” that there is no other solution than to “exteriorize”( in this case meaning to kill the body) to handle the situation, and “prove” that he is untouchable. I cannot imagine him “going quietly” and I will bet that he will want to make a spectacle of it. An “event of EPIC proportions” (in his own mind).

Sooner or later the end will come for David Miscavige. We can only hope that his personal downward spiral can be reversed in time.

WW
markthehungarian | November 20, 2010 at 7:58 pm |

I would agree that there is a similarity between the duties of the Jonestown Church and members in Scientology. But if we compare leaders, from my perspective (and I’m not a Scientologist and never have been) I see nothing that the two share besides a love of power and control.

Jim Jones would rather die than face justice. He was a “believer,” even if he was very very warped. From what I have seen, read and learned of DM, he likes being at the helm of a business that is also classed as a religion in the US. However, I don’t think he really practices Scientology at all.

Has DM ever been audited? Does he ever get Sec Checked? Does he follow “the code of the auditor?” I think the answer to all of those is no.

DM is a cruel bastard with a power-complex, of that I think there is no doubt. However, I can’t see him going down with the ship… or scuppering it himself and taking the crew down with him.

DM is a coward. He hides behind the acts of others. He brushes off responsibility for his actions by laying the blame at the feet of others. If he decides on a course of action, and it doesn’t work (and it NEVER works*) then he is ruthless in finding a scapegoat or SP to blame for his shortcomings.

DM will end up in court.

…
*DM never finished high school. He might be street smart (but he has unlimited funds and can afford to hire professionals who have studied “something”) but he is not book smart. But, as a clever dumb-ass, he realizes that in order to stay out of trouble, he needs to stay clear of any confrontation (which is about as un-Sci as you can get). However, the truth always comes out in the end. DM is not that old so he will see the inside of a court room one day. And when he does, his stupidity and lack of intellect will be exposed for all to see. He will be “taken to school,” legally, whether he wants to go or not.
Quicksilver | November 20, 2010 at 7:58 pm |

Spotting outpoints and having the guts to say them is NOT Black Dianetics.

What *IS* Black Dianetics is the current suppression, nullification & not-isness occurring within the Management & being pummelled onto staff & public by Miscavage, OSA & the IAS
Theo Sismanides | November 20, 2010 at 8:16 pm |

LO,

Yes, I thought about it.

This would be absolutely great!!

Geir Isene came to Greece last year and visited Hydra among other islands.

Now Hydra is a beautiful island near Athens, with no cars, you can have donkeys for transportation there.

Look at some pics.

Well, I don’t know about stones but there is a lot of ouzo here and the only danger is people to be sessionable for next day!!! hahaha!
Quicksilver | November 20, 2010 at 8:20 pm |

Oops … should read, “Spotting outpoints, differences & similarities and having the guts to say them is NOT Black Dianetics”
LO | November 20, 2010 at 8:34 pm |

Nomen est omen !
So much truth and blowdowns I haven’t seen on any thread then this one. It’s quite tough to confront evil. We are getting to the core of that 3rd dyn. engram. And I tell you it’s being felt in the theta universe across the planet .
Just some more looking and confronting and multiple viewpoints and that engram blows apart. What will be left ? Joy, theta, laughing and a new outlook on the 3rd dynamic.
Ah, Osa what the hell are you talking about ?
Are you not in session ? Which rudiment went out ?
Guess !
RJ | November 20, 2010 at 8:34 pm |

No surprise there with Squirrelly Dave at the helm.

The only time I got involved in Book I (this life time) was when they piloted the first Book I seminars in the early ’80’s per the LRHED ‘Ridge on the Bridge’.

We did it exactly by the book.

However when I got gulled into doing the BC (un)Certainty Course there was this stupid GAT Book I drill that was completely idiotic like the one you described that I believe was in part based on the April ’66 HCOB ‘The Dianetics Course’ which was sorta hobson jobsoned into being the current “Book I” Procedure.

Not that the Procedure from the HCOB is a bad thing. Its actually quite good for running engrams but mixing it with Book I is like totally f*cking squirrel!
Tom M | November 20, 2010 at 8:34 pm |

Exactly. And there are no cell phones and no way to alert authorities because he has cut comm lines with the outside world. He has his own little kingdom there and he could blast away unabated for hours before anyone knew. That’s what the scary part is.

He cannot afford the outside world to know the truth of what went on there and when the time comes he will kill all truth. He can’t look bad to the world.

ML Tom
Cat Daddy | November 20, 2010 at 8:36 pm |

@ RJ, I am dieing to know about the ICRF
International Coalition for Religious Freedom
http://www.religiousfreedom.com/
Sinar | November 20, 2010 at 8:40 pm |

OSA – what is black Dianetics to you? No one is processing here.
Thanks for your feeble attempts to derail this thread – there is something about sanity being the ability to distinguish similarities, identities an differences.

No one is trying to As Is your dear leader, just revealing truths & increasing sanity! There is no “group” here and no group think or agreements or bank, only Independents!

Your comments and contributions don’t help anyone, even yourself – “Think about it”.
Cat Daddy | November 20, 2010 at 8:54 pm |

“Has DM ever been audited? Does he ever get Sec Checked? Does he follow “the code of the auditor?” I think the answer to all of those is no”

One name: Jesse Prince
metaqual | November 20, 2010 at 9:15 pm |

I I gave you one reference to start with and you are not even acknowledging that as if I didn’t say it even though RJ pointed it out to you. Leo Ryan was a convenient target as he was also looking into CIA abuse. Seek and ye shall find. It is not hard to look. Here is another one:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_yZ80JaFvlUJ:www.whale.to/b/jonestown1.html+jim+jones+mind+control&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari
one of those who see | November 20, 2010 at 9:18 pm |

I am overwelmed by the theta, the
Intellegence, the ability to differentiate-
Which is sanity! Of those posting
On this blog. If anyone wanted
Proof that scientology works they
Just need to read here. Marty, there
Are no words to thank you for all
You do including putting this forum
Here. I printed out Luis’ letter
And mailed to an old friend. Scientologist
Who got in in the mid 70’s. He
Has now shown it to another Scientologist.
They will now be getting a comptuter
To be able read more and I assume
Join in.
theoracle | November 20, 2010 at 9:23 pm |

Sorry, I meant to say “Thanks” to you for your view. I misposted.
I think are both can be easy to confront to the degree you can laugh at either.
So, have a laugh!
Theo Sismanides | November 20, 2010 at 9:33 pm |

Jimbo,

I thought you would have understood that I know by now that to do is not to have and that do comes first.

But organization does not mean Ideal orgs or anything like that. It means what we did with Daniel for example, but on a more organized fashion.

I think a lot of people here have associated organization with bad things and policy with “policy” and stuff like that. Far from that. Organization is putting more interest into the thing.

If an organization becomes automatic it means that the head of it and/or it’s members are not getting it or are not up to it, meaning Operating Thetans. The S.O. has become like that because they are now unprocessed and un-educated (mis-educated if you prefer) in Ethics, Tech and Admin.

The issue is open to me because I know what I did in the ASHO CF when I was alone and Yolanda McGuire, missionaire from FB was telling me to file as the CF officer. If I didn’t know my org board and livingness I would have died as a CF officer. But my keyed-out state at the time and my having read Org Board and Livingness and wordcleared it, drove me to answer the phone down in the basement of ASHO, get people to help, start giving files to file and then getting more phones, more volunteers and then ED Int came with an award giving volunteers the BC !! You can imagine what happened then… I had that picture when I was alone in the corridor of ASHO basement that one day it would be full of people filing. I saw the picture. And then I as-ised it. I saw it happening in real life at which moment the whole thing ended for me.

Now on the Indies I have this picture, you know… And it’s NOT having to have before I can do. It’s just DO, DO, DO… and HAVE, HAVE, HAVE.

It’s called THINK BIG, ACT BIG AND COLLECT BIG. Remember?

Now, one person cannot do that. Many can do much more. And a good administrator can get this done. With fun and up-toness. And not on automatic. I am not an automatic type of guy. I knew that GAT was squirrel. I knew the Org Board and Livingness was not having to have before you can do. I knew the Divisions and the Awareness Characteristics were the solution to getting more and more done. And this is what LRH did. Nobody complained to him about organization. Now, we can all complain about organization, since we have Miscavige. Who is not an administrator of Standard Tech. He does his own things and bad things he does. So, who is to blame, the organization or the squirreling?
Sapere Aude | November 20, 2010 at 9:47 pm |

Response to Joe Pendleton and ExIntStaffMember posts as well as the original top of page post and video.

There are many similarities. There are some differences. Many Int staff and SO staff are aware of the outpoints but feel helpless to do something in my opinion. DM has no confront of any group that even begins to ignore his actions. But the group must come up to the point that they can ignore him.

What destruction that occurs at the time of the “quickening” is unknown but it will occur. If one looks at the video to observe for similarities they are all through the vid. Maybe not identities or differences but the post was about parallel’s which would be similarities.

LRH is very clear about this type of person.

PAB 13 On Human Behavior

What we will call the aberrative personality does the following things;
1. Everything bad that happened to the preclear was (a) rediculous, (b) unimportant, (c) deserved.
2. Everything the preclear and others did to the aberrative person was (a) very important, (b) very bad, (c) irremediable.
3. Those things which the preclear could do (a) were without real value, (b) were done better by the aberrative personality or by others.
4. Sexual restraint or perversion.
5. Inhibition of eating.

Such people would be better understood if I called them ‘merchants of fear.’ The most degraded control operation of which the GE is capable is utilized by these people for their sold method of getting on in the world. They have lost all ability themselves to create, they cannot work themselves, they must either amass money which is never to be spent or must prevent others from amassing money. They produce nothing, they must steal one way or another, and then devaluate whatever they obtain. They speak very sternly of honesty or ethics and put on a formidable front of complete legality.
…
The truth of the matter is: such people never win. If one traces out these people, as I have done occasiionally after processing a preclear, he will discover that the aberrative personality is very close to the bringk of a crack-up, has a very low survival level, and quite commonly goes insane.
… the difference between the aberrative personality and run-of-the-mill human beings. The secrecy computation is the clue. The best index to a secrecy computation is a refusal to be audited.” LRH

—-

Compare the characteristics to JJ and DM. Both fit. Yes, many staff are treated equally bad but we still have staff who have had auditing, wins and somewhere under it all the awareness they are a thetan and not a body. The SO member and public know this. They are basically good.

Shift will happen and it won’t be pretty but it doesn’t have to look just like Jonestown. It will be felt the most by those supporting him to the end but I and we cannot help them all. Somewhere they have to pick themselves up by their bootstraps and let the world know they aren’t going to take this crap any more.

Here, we communicate truth on a clean line. We hope for as much duplication as possible to increase understandings. This is the road out. I quoted the Melbourne Congress earlier on this particular blog subject above. That is true. That is what the future is.

Larry Brennan, (hi Larry, long time no see) understands as well as Mike and Marty that the complex structure is not defensible. This is more like the battle of Stalingrad where Hitler forced his army against the Russians to take a town with Stalin’s name and no great military value. Two large German armies were located so they fully couldn’t protect each other and work as a team and this was the turning point of WW2. The corporate structure will start to unravel and will not protect DM.

I do not see the rank and file corporate Trustee/Director willing to take the fall for this. Then things will speed up in change.

Parallel’s to JJ – absolutely. Must the outcome look the same – not if we can help it.

Some who read this just got gobsmacked. If you felt that then reread the Aims of Scientology and the definition of ethics!
Just Me | November 20, 2010 at 9:58 pm |

Tomorrow’s (Sunday’s) St. Petersburg Times has a long investigative piece by Childs/Tobin entitled, “Scientology benefits when Miami dentist runs up patient bills.” It’s a sad but familiar story of how Corporate Scientology’s financial extortion and several parishioners’ failed responsibility levels led to ripped-off customers, a messy bankruptcy and more well-earned bad PR for the Co$.

Enjoy at http://www.tampabay.com/news/scientology/scientology-benefits-when-miami-dentist-runs-up-patient-bills/1135436

Just Me
RJ | November 20, 2010 at 10:32 pm |

Al,

I worked in the New World Corp when non-SO (who were bonded of course) were allowed into the sanctum sanctorum of Scientology operations and I can tell you this:

Super Power does not require a special building or equipment in order to deliver it.

It was a rundown that was designed as an action that paralleled power since Power could not be delivered to Clears.

Therefore Saint Hills were designated as the Orgs that were supposed to deliver it for obvious reasons.

The problems with the delivery of the rundown had nothing to do with needing special equipment or a special building to deliver it in but the inability of auditors to audit it which started a whole series of actions to remedy this inability beginning with the Pro TRs Pilot since many of the trainees had problems with their TRs and keeping a PC in session which led to the discovery that many auditors couldn’t study which lead to Ron doing a whole eval on this entitled the “World Out of Comm Eval” leading to actions designed to put the person back in comm with his environment and be able to study.

The Key to Life and Life Orientation Course which were initially supposed to be delivered to staff first then public.

Along with this Ron researched another rundown based on his research of the whole track known on the inside as the “Running Program” that was used by some of the squirrels at the Int Base as a means of torture but was in fact designed as a rundown to put a thetan more at cause which became known as the “Cause Resurgence RD” on the outside.

It is not part of Super Power and is a separate rundown with its own specific EP and can be delivered on a regular oval track of the type used in track and field.

We used one near Griffith Park somewhere during the pilot *in the evening* instead of during the day which as you know can get pretty hot in SoCal when it was cooler so the runners didn’t get overheated.

In other words it does not require a special track built on the top of some huge edifice in order to deliver it!

It’s also better to do the rundown outside in the fresh air or reasonable facsimile thereof when you’re talking about LA not in some special enclosed room for reasons that are obvious if you actually read the bulletin.

Anyway Ron wanted Super Power to be delivered within 6 weeks when he first announced its release in RJ 30 but decided to put its release on the “back burner” as he said when he had a look at the basic auditing “skills” or lack thereof of the trainees arriving to do the course!

Also its not so much that a PC should know that they are being audited by a Super Power auditor which is a ridiculous piece of propaganda that they are promoting these days about Super Power.

(I mean if the auditor’s TRs are in and his Auditor Beingness was in the PC wouldn’t really notice the auditor because he’d be interested in his own case and willing to talk to the auditor even if the auditor was Attila the Hun or even David Miscavige!)

But that one of the specific actions of the rundown is so powerful that if run incorrectly will leave the PC stuck in the middle of a whole track engram turned on to full revivification!

Also like Power this action has a specific EP that most auditors were too weak kneed and gutless to hang on for!

But I digress….

So no the rundown does not need special chairs designed by NASA who by the way had various members of their Life Studies Division or LSD involved in Mk Ultra or moving screens or special equipment designed to replicate various fragrances or whatever but someone who can actually audit!

(Marty I’m sure you’d be good at it 🙂 )

Oh by the way the original RD was not called the “Theta Perception RD” but the Perceptic as in the 58 perceptics Rundown.

They even squirreled the f*cking name!
OSA | November 20, 2010 at 10:40 pm |

Thank you.

I didnt say simularities dont exist, but suggested that computing on simularities alone is naughty.

David Miscavige is a cult leader. David Miscavige is not jim jones.

In the differences may lie the solutions. In the simularities, inadequate observation.
OSA | November 20, 2010 at 10:57 pm |

Black Dianetics is the installation of incidents. (Rather than the removal)

The A=A vis a vis Miscavige and Jones is the creation and installation of an incident, a point in time with painful emotion and unresolvable content, that will be used to compute with in a similar situation. A secondary as it relies on earlier similar.

Miscavige is no ones dear leader, black dianetics is appropriate on him, as according to Ron its proper target is the person who would deny to good version to others. The sooner Miscavige vamooses to Bulgravia the sooner we can all get on with our lives.

I say “look, don’t listen”. Just because Jonestown makes a rather poignant, illuminating, emotional illustration of the dangers we face, does not mean it also suggests the correct solution. I am only attempting to point out how even the best of us still engage in the learned behaviors and identification thinking we say we fight against.

Perhaps some who find my posting trollish and counter it to negate, would serve the common purpose better by pointing out the differences in the two cults and potential solutions to the PRESENT TIME situation.

The two potential solutions I think most appropriate are: Incorporating a new church of scientology to force the issue of the currents church control of the materials and name, or a class action lawsuit by current and former members against the church for fraud in its adherence to church scripture. Both of course taking much more effort and resourses than talking about it on the web.

ML
Cat Daddy | November 20, 2010 at 11:04 pm |

Even in Scientology Tech there is judgement acording to observed similarities.

The difference may onley need wich priority a certain “SP” cult leader has.

Miscavige will in the end choose money I think and flee like a coward. I think whereass Jim Jones choose ultimate compliance over anything else. Hitler choose the destruction of the Jews over his military objectives.

Every “SP” has his or her hobbyhorse.
Just Me | November 20, 2010 at 11:25 pm |

My own personal opinion: Whether the LRH version or the DM version — that’s a rundown that’s just too damned complicated.

Just Me
TEG | November 20, 2010 at 11:29 pm |

Dear OSA,

Are you Dan Sherman handling this evocative thread for the little psychotic one?

Just a note, dm’s closer to .5 than is now broadly known. His BFF won’t return calls.

Bu-bye……………..
DFB aka Dfb99 | November 20, 2010 at 11:36 pm |

I only read your response. Something about the word NASA caught my eye.
I recall at one event maybe a year or more ago COB was describing the machines that are used as part of the Superpower (Perception rundown?) .
He either said they were some of the same machines used by NASA or they were built by the same people. The latter indicates more to me when I try to replay it in my mind. “…designed and built by the same people who produce flight training equipment for NASA”. Something pretty close to that.
Jim Logan | November 20, 2010 at 11:46 pm |

I can’t speak for most of the people or their ‘anti-cult’itudenousness.

The term ‘cult’ is frought with connotation. Lots of ‘thought -stop’ on this one. Very pejorative as a word it would seem.

I’m Pro Scientology personally and as a Scientologist recognize that ‘anti’ is not so much a workable solution as cessation of creation. The latter avoids all that ‘stop’ stuff and its ramification.
RJ | November 20, 2010 at 11:54 pm |

JM,

More proof of how “effective” WISE’s squirrelly BOTWO (Based on the Works of L Ron Hubbard you know like EST, the Process, Amprinistics etc) admin courses are at bilking the public!

Thanks guys!

For once again showing the world how Scientology Churchies have made Behar’s postulate stick!

You truly have become the ‘The (maybe not) Thriving (but definitely the) Cult of Greed and Power’.

Sheeesh……..
Jim Logan | November 21, 2010 at 12:00 am |

OSA,
Point.

Now, how about you and your contribution to differentiation of this bloody gawdawful mess of too similar?
Songbird | November 21, 2010 at 12:03 am |

Thanks for the link on the criminally out exchange Scientology dentist, Just Me. Something similar happened to my ex-husband recently. He paid a ton of money to have a tooth fixed/capped. When the permanent cap fell off a few weeks later, the Scientology dentist wanted to charge him even MORE to fix his overt product. So my ex went to another dentist who fixed his tooth for an extremely reasonable fee and hasn’t had a problem with it since.

This ‘rip off’ mentality is so typical of Scientologists who are pressured to donate more money than they can reasonably be expected to earn. Disgusting…
RJ | November 21, 2010 at 12:11 am |

So am I CD!

In fact you probably know more about it than I do.

However one look at their website and their obvious slap at Iran in particular gave me the feeling that it’s probably covertly financed by Dave’s “friends” at Langley.
RJ | November 21, 2010 at 12:20 am |

My bad Jeff.

I should have picked up the sarcasm right away knowing you 🙂

sigh

Sometimes I get too serious for my own good.
Tony DePhillips | November 21, 2010 at 12:24 am |

Hi Joe,
Ya, it is like you can gradiently boil a creature to death where they will hardly notice it. First put them in some nice warm water and then gradually heat it up. When it gets a certain temperature they will go to sleep and then die. Some will wake up and bolt. Like us, the ones who have a stronger survival urge.
Tony DePhillips | November 21, 2010 at 12:27 am |

That means you are an OSA threat my friend. 🙂
RJ | November 21, 2010 at 12:31 am |

Well you gotta understand CD that the Children of God like the Searchers and other such cults are of value to one cult in particular covered in the ground breaking book by Victor Marchetti and John Marks.

Here’s another factoid that few people know as well and that is that the Children of God received their 501ciii status at the same time the Church of Scientology did.

Coincidence?
Tony DePhillips | November 21, 2010 at 12:45 am |

OTDT,
I think I worked with that MAA once also. She was a young girl and she was giving me a hard time on my Liability formula. When I wrote that my friends were “ethical people and Sea Org members” she told me that I had an MU on the formula. She said that I had to name actual specific friends or the formula was wrong. I said “well how did I get out of the condition before?, doing the same thing then?” She couldn’t handle that one. She KR’d me and I had to pay a few hundred extra bucks being sec checked on it. How is that for ignorant and arrogant?
RJ | November 21, 2010 at 12:55 am |

Oh please OSA,

What does posting comments on a blog have to do with “Black Dianetics”.

Get real!

You wouldn’t happen to be trying to make people afraid of communicating?

Go back to your Deputy Stupid Asshole or DSA and work out another plan of attack as this one is a total FAIL.
Freedom Fighter | November 21, 2010 at 1:08 am |

This is my thought as well. From the eye-witness accounts I’ve read of Miscavage here and other places, he doesn’t strike me as the type to quietly fade off into the shadows. He strikes me more as the type that would want to go down in a blaze just like in his favorite action film. The “if I’m going down, I’m taking you f-ckers with me” type.

Blowing assumes the person has some concept of having harmed someone, so they remove themself from that location so they don’t cause any more harm. That doesn’t sound like the DM that has been described by so many of you here. Nope, you guys are “wrong” and he’s proven himself capable of showing you just how “wrong” you are. How wrong can a person be? As LRH says, “dead”.
Freedom Fighter | November 21, 2010 at 1:12 am |

+1
Revenimus | November 21, 2010 at 1:12 am |

Ensifer, you just lack reality. It is one thing to read the blogs, but it is quite another to be there getting beat up in front of crowds or to experience the hell that is sleep deprivation. I’ve met David Miscavige and I’ve been there. The parallels are shockingly similar, and like many on this blog I worry for friends within. But your attempts at discrediting what is said here are very evident.
Revenimus | November 21, 2010 at 1:30 am |

Yes! Jones has been surpassed years ago by DM, it was just one event that lead up to the tragedy, one official government visit, but think of how far DM has gone, he has much more money, slaves at his disposal and he’s done a whole lot of damage, from suicides to death by suppression and he’s far more twisted when you think about hundreds spending years and years on the RPF, or the shit we went through at the INT base, and what public have been looted of mass fortunes… When people leave the base they are strangers to their families, all the broken families and children denied of couples. Cumulatively the damage has been astounding and now we know he’s a drunk, and yet people here doubt what Marty’s saying???
Wake up people!!
Bryon | November 21, 2010 at 1:55 am |

Super Power perceptics chair developed with help from NASA. DM said it at an event (back in 1991 no less), so it must be true.
Grasshopper | November 21, 2010 at 1:56 am |

I think we all need to understand that people of good will will be attacked, lied to, harmed, lied about, etc., by all sorts of people.

Whether Jones was a victim of MK Ultra or not is not really important to me. It is only important in the context of how to keep the government in line, but it is not important when confronting our reaction to it.

What I mean is – whether or not Mr. David Miscavige is a plant does not matter. It just does not. It would be interesting and very enlightening if there was documentation to that effect – then it would be important, not in and of itself, but only because it helps get him the cuss out.

It is not important that Jones was encouraged by the CIA, if he was.

What is important is that a vast majority of the 909 that committed suicide did it on purpose, following a leader who led them to that sorry and tragic end.

It is important to know what it is in us that allows this to happen. It is important to understand how to know when our divine purpose has been usurped by a scheming, lying, but believable bastard. How to avoid having our better nature played by nice-sounding words that are underlain by evil and tragic purposes. It is said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. People like Jones and Miscavige escort you down that road. We need to be able to see these evil purposes, and act on them, rather than just assuming that if it was okay last year, it is still okay this year.

We need to know this, not just as Scientologists, but as humans, as beings.

Whether the evil is generated from without, or within, we need to recognize it when we see it. We need to do this individually, not collectively. Collectively, we, as LRH noted, are prone to witch hunts. Therefore, it is an individual decision, and individual observation. “This is corrupt. I will not take it anymore.” It is nice, and helpful, that there are others who see it too, but the decision and the observation is individual. The responsibility is, too.
Tony DePhillips | November 21, 2010 at 2:01 am |

Is that really you Sam?? Your avatar looks diferent.. 🙂
Grasshopper | November 21, 2010 at 2:05 am |

At the end of the day, then, RJ, Mr. David Miscavige has failed to get auditor capability up to auditing Super Power.

I remember when Super Power was announced. The reasons it was delayed were as you stated: Auditor lack of ability.

Over thirty years later, it is still not released. Mr. David Miscavige: Flunk!
Valkov | November 21, 2010 at 2:10 am |

TEST. Not sure my posts are making it through.
Tony DePhillips | November 21, 2010 at 2:19 am |

Awesome!!!
thetanetworker | November 21, 2010 at 2:54 am |

Thanks for your answer with a perspective from your persoanl experience, RJ.

“So no the rundown does not need special chairs designed by NASA who by the way had various members of their Life Studies Division or LSD involved in Mk Ultra or moving screens or special equipment designed to replicate various fragrances or whatever but someone who can actually audit!”

I understand that the super Power RD does not actually NEED special chairs designed by NASA, ETC. However, my first impression of Robert Dam’s account of the Super Power briefing given by Allan Juvonen was that could it be that Super Power has been altered so thoroughly that it has become a case of DM planning to use Reverse Dianetics behind a smokescreen of “speeding up planetary clearing” … You think not? …
————————————————————————————–
“Ron wanted Super Power to be delivered within 6 weeks when he first announced its release in RJ 30” — This I knew, and it’s mentioned on friendsofLRH.com

Is there anything from LRH that shows that: “Ron decided to put its release on the “back burner” as he said when he had a look at the basic auditing ‘skills’ or lack thereof of the trainees arriving to do the course”? …
Huckleberry | November 21, 2010 at 3:39 am |

We don’t all start from the same place, oracle. Some cases are far more occluded and others start with much free theta. That said, I still think stupidity is postulated. Sometimes it’s easier to forget than to remember, and the more you choose to forget, the less you know.
Huckleberry | November 21, 2010 at 3:51 am |

OTDT, I can’t really track with LRH “suiciding”. He left a body that had been through the wars and was failing him. That’s very different from committing suicide or, in the case of Jonestown, being coerced into committing suicide.
OSA | November 21, 2010 at 4:50 am |

Posting comments on a blog is entering data into people experiential track. Associating that data with past traumatic incidents, things that have charge, for the purpose of influencing how people with think and act in the future, rather than running out the past incidents, is Black Dianetics. The encouraged agreement, the discouraged questioning, thought stopping. Subtle, isnt it? Implants arent all electronic ribbons and H bombs. Thats the easy stuff to run. Big, easy to spot. Its the accretion of subtle, minor incidents that truly provide the foundation of our 3rd dynamic engram. And its telepathic, and below our awareness.

On the contrary, I wish communication was more open, and more viewpoints represented, and by the example of my unpopular communication, perhaps others too will be encouraged to add to the dialog.

I have not attacked, but communicated, a crime for sure, perhaps the greatest one in this universe. Why, RJ, are you threatened by it? Truth is scary?
RJ | November 21, 2010 at 5:15 am |

His reply was that it was on the “back burner” when I asked him via SO #1 what happened to Super Power in ’82.
Theo Sismanides | November 21, 2010 at 5:30 am |

Hey Jimbo, that’s great! South of the border, where it’s warmer. I like that! That’s freedom, man!
Theo Sismanides | November 21, 2010 at 5:31 am |

Thetalibre, thanks, good to see you here!
RJ | November 21, 2010 at 6:38 am |

GH,

I don’t think it’s merely that he failed but is actively preventing good auditors from being made.
RJ | November 21, 2010 at 7:32 am |

Anna,

I can assure you that Super Power was developed by Ron personally with no assistance from NASA whatsoever despite what the little Space Cadet says.
RJ | November 21, 2010 at 7:48 am |

JM,

If I put it down it’ll get cold and its just too damn hard to relight.

You know that!

As to who am I arguing with?

That’s such I silly question to ask.

I mean who needs anyone to argue with when you have multiple personalities!

Sheesh!
Cat Daddy | November 21, 2010 at 10:05 am |

Smurf(Gary Scarff) informed us on the boards it was some kind of “Moonie” site. I was thrown of by the logo, It looked a bit similar to some church ones. A coöperation organization of sorts for various cults.
Cat Daddy | November 21, 2010 at 10:11 am |

I think not. Thank you for the information Chief Exexetive of the ISHR (Independent Scientologists for Human Rights) ;).

“The Family” (Children of God) is one nasty cult.
martyrathbun09 | November 21, 2010 at 1:56 pm |

OSA. Appopriate moniker. I have noted with interest your last couple posts; smoothly communicating OSA’s lines in a crafty, sorta open-minded sounding way.
martyrathbun09 | November 21, 2010 at 2:30 pm |

This is the last post of “OSA.” I am letting this one through so that you might better understand what OSA’s agenda is. We are very methodically, and cleverly following through on plans to end the MONOPOLY. “OSA’s” advice is precisely what Miscavige wants, and he has OSA programs running to try to make us make it happen. Both suggestions are utterly destructive of Independent survival. For ya’ll’s info.
Just Me | November 21, 2010 at 3:50 pm |

OK, got it. We won’t do what you don’t want us to not think you want us to not do.

Just Me
OTDT | November 21, 2010 at 5:06 pm |

Tony,
Mine was a Guatemalan dude. I was sent from the Nots HGC to the MAA without being told why. When I got there and he came out to the waiting area to get me he had a big scowl on his face. I greeted him by shaking his hand and saying, “Hi, I’m so and so. How are you, buddy?”

He scowled harder and glared and said, “I’m not your buddy! NOW PICK UP THE CANS!” as he literally thrust them in my face while he was actually hyperventilating, mocking up an angry face and turning his scowl and glare volume up to eleven.

I tried to TR 4 the situation but he made it clear he was not going to respond to any question I had as to his demeanor. I was completely stunned and dumbfounded as I answered his list of questions while he stared at the meter.

Back in the HGC, no one ever informed me as to why I was sent. I was still too stunned to even ask.
OTDT | November 21, 2010 at 5:24 pm |

Have to disagree with you on that, Huckleberry. Confronting it full on, whenever a person by their own decision and causation brings about their own death, that’s suicide. You can look the word up in the dictionary, and in medical references, etc. Don’t forget to clear the Sanskrit derivation.

If there was truth to what Miscavige stated, that it was LRH’s own decision to discard his body because it was an encumbrance to the next spiritual level of research, that doesn’t sound like he was hit by a car or died of old age or even an illness.

It makes no difference in the definition of the act itself whether the person was ten years old, twenty, fifty or a hundred. The act is the act no matter age or method of achieving it. Gun, poison, drugs, hanging, causatively permanent exteriorization (if skilled enough) do not change the actuality of the act.

Circumstances can change one’s understanding of the act, bringing about a higher tolerance or reasonability about it on the part of those left in its wake, but it’s still suicide nonetheless.
Just Me | November 21, 2010 at 5:40 pm |

I’m dying laughing! RJ, do you really think Lunamoth and Just Me are the same person? If so, I apologize to Lunamoth for being (giggle) Just Me. Seriously, Lunamoth — we really should meet up one of these days.

Really, it’s Just Me.
Just Me | November 21, 2010 at 5:45 pm |

Yes, I saw that, Metaqual. And thank you. But it was “Mark Hall” I referenced and was interested in. I don’t know who Hall is.
JM
OTDT | November 21, 2010 at 5:53 pm |

I can see him setting up DAVESTOWN in North Korea, where for reasons of sanctuary he will cede allegiance to the original Dear Leader, embrace North Korean discipline into the culture of the Tschurcsh of $cientology and combine it with the Nation of Islam to finally create the Ultimate Scientology Church of Discipline, Domination and Donations.

Tom Cruise will be in charge of the nuclear weapons, Farrakan in charge of the Tech, and Kim Whatever his name is will be HCO.

Suicides will be banned. Only the Church of DD&D will have the authority to sanction the forced, permanent exteriorization of offenders, but only once he perfects his electronic thetan trap he’s secretly working on with North Korean scientists who are currently studying the original Ghostbusters movie for technical advice on creating their Ecto containment units. Can’t be having no loose ghosts flying around!
OTDT | November 21, 2010 at 6:07 pm |

Acquiring data from a blog or personal testimony or from direct observation and associating and evaluating it consciously is not the same as what you are talking about.

You are right of course, that one should not just agree to agree. But, how do you know if one individual reader or another here is or is not robotically agreeing and responding? Do you wear a turban?
OTDT | November 21, 2010 at 6:10 pm |

Comment was for OSA. And by turban I meant as in fortune teller crystal ball type of turban wearers. Don’t wanna offend all turban wearers en masse by association.
🙂
Cat Daddy | November 21, 2010 at 6:13 pm |

The onley thing I have observed in pictures and video footahe that has a hint of NASA is that Gyro-spin-in-all-dirrections Cage thinghy.

There is one at CST and in those pictures of that OT8 sci fi looking luxery spaces.
Cat Daddy | November 21, 2010 at 6:39 pm |

Yes see how certain parts of Scientology and Psychology have simularities.

“Hotchkiss identified what she called the seven deadly sins of narcissism:[16]

1.Shamelessness – Shame is the feeling that lurks beneath all unhealthy narcissism, and the inability to process shame in healthy ways.
2.Magical thinking – Narcissists see themselves as perfect using distortion and illusion known as magical thinking. They also use projection to dump shame onto others.
3.Arrogance – A narcissist who is feeling deflated may reinflate by diminishing, debasing, or degrading somebody else.
4.Envy – A narcissist may secure a sense of superiority in the face of another person’s ability by using contempt to minimize the other person.
5.Entitlement – Narcissists hold unreasonable expectations of particularly favorable treatment and automatic compliance because they consider themselves special. Failure to comply is considered an attack on their superiority, and the perpetrator is considered an “awkward” or “difficult” person. Defiance of their will is a narcissistic injury that can trigger narcissistic rage.
6.Exploitation – can take many forms but always involves the exploitation of others without regard for their feelings or interests. Often the other is in a subservient position where resistance would be difficult or even impossible. Sometimes the subservience is not so much real as assumed.
7.Bad Boundaries – narcissists do not recognize that they have boundaries and that others are separate and are not extensions of themselves. Others either exist to meet their needs or may as well not exist at all. Those who provide narcissistic supply to the narcissist are treated as if they are part of the narcissist and be expected to live up to those expectations. In the mind of a narcissist, there is no boundary between self and other.”
Sapere Aude | November 21, 2010 at 7:47 pm |

CD

Yes. No matter what one’s training or degree a valid observation of insanities would alway have similarities. What one does with the observation may be different but we are talking about the insanities of the observed.
Tony DePhillips | November 21, 2010 at 7:47 pm |

That is very weird but not surprising. I used to tell them in the HGC and to the MAAs that I thought their ARC was very low and I didn’t think it was helpful being downtone in handling people especially when they are spending THOUSANDS for your friggin help MORON!!
OSA's other sock | November 21, 2010 at 7:51 pm |

No turban here. And of course you are right, direct observation and conscious evaluation are not aberrative. I am suggesting though that for some the association with the trauma of Jonestown will key in bank and the data from the blog will not be consciously evaluated, but rather be added to the stuff that will later result in poor solutions.

It is my observation that agreement comes easy in some situations on this blog and that scares me. It reminds me of the church.
martyrathbun09 | November 21, 2010 at 7:54 pm |

Say Hi to Neil and Linda for me.
RJ | November 21, 2010 at 8:57 pm |

Oh wow!!!!

Sorry JM!!!!!

What the hell was I thinking?

Sometimes these threads go on for so long after a while you forget who you’re arguing with….

That’s when it gets really embarrassing…

Er…

But comical as well 🙂
OTDT | November 21, 2010 at 9:18 pm |

I generally found that HGC personnel treated their customers like they were just stats to push around, not actually people.
OTDT | November 21, 2010 at 9:19 pm |

JM,
Same here. Didn’t hit me ’til recently.
OTDT | November 21, 2010 at 9:28 pm |

Church-related trauma won’t come from or be keyed by anything to do with Jonestown or the Holocaust or the Killing Fields or Christian Crusade massacres or OT III or beatings from parents.

Church-related trauma has, is and will come from Church-generated actions and incidents of self-induced and tolerated trauma, mainly by David Miscavige and his Blind Band of Syncophants who probably ARE keyed in from and dramatizing some of these past atrocities.

Good point, wrong source, incorrect handling.
Just Me | November 21, 2010 at 10:32 pm |

Metaqual, never mind. I sorted it out (somehow got “Mark Lane” confused with “Mark Hall”).
JM
Brett | November 21, 2010 at 10:37 pm |

Precisely. OSA’s intention behind his words still shines through… not subtle enough I guess.
Jane | November 21, 2010 at 11:12 pm |

Thanks OTDT. As they say, ‘some of my best friends are….’. But it worries me that young people from a part of the world that was Communist not so very long ago (where control, surveillance, sacrifice of the individual to ‘group-think’,etc were the norm) appear to have been put into senior positions over locals who have a different attitude to individual freedoms.
And I have also noticed a marked deterioration in the ability of some who were once highly intelligent to reason or even to carry on a rational conversation.
Jim Logan | November 22, 2010 at 1:10 pm |

I missed this one in the flurry. These last two points, the proposed solutions are interesting aren’t they. The first, sounds fine, however First Amendment case law prohibits this course; it’s a lose. In fact, the case law that exists now deals with trademarked religious entities and the long standing precedent is the court has NO jurisdiction to decide who is more on trademark than who else. In other words, they won’t hear the case and the trademarks won’t be dealt with in terms of whether or not Scientology IS actual LRH Scientology. The validity of the trademark resides in it being legally registered and actively protected, not whether or not the religious materials and practice supposed to be represented by those marks ARE in fact Scientology as written or spoken by L. Ron Hubbard due to the necessity to interpret the materials to decide that question.

Second one, same case law. The court will NOT consider what is or isn’t Scientology in terms of scripture as that requires interpretation of Scientology. Any suit, class or individual will fail on the First Amendment, if it follows this suggested by OSA, response.

There ARE legal avenues – not prohibited by First Amendment issues, that ARE within the court’s purview/jurisdiction.

Texas Hold’em is a poker game Dave. Your ‘tell’ is known.
Cat Daddy | November 23, 2010 at 6:58 am |

The malignant Narcissist is pre close to the real SP described by Hubbard “Have you ever met a real SP ? A real monster ?”

It’s a catogory of Psychopath. If you read the PAB about the Anti Social Personality you are pretty close to Anti Personality Disorder (Psychopaths). As one Scientologist put it: “Hubbard didn’t live in a Vacüum”

I think “The malignant Narcissist”Is “the real monster” or The real SP Hubbard was talking about. These kind of people need to be exposed and contained for they will reap havoc on the human race/soul

David Miscavige is a classic example.
Huckleberry | November 23, 2010 at 6:24 pm |

Sapere, very insightful and I fully agree. In recent history, examples abound: Pol Pot, Ceausescu, Mussolini, Pinochet, Hitler, Idi Amin. When the end comes, it comes quick. And without mercy.
Erwin Croughs | November 23, 2010 at 11:37 pm |

Marty, it’s fun to prove OSA wrong even if it means not agreeing with you. I think we’ve just seen a big improvement in OSA’s tone level which has never been so direct. It means that your blog is not only making huge TA on Kool Aiders that see the light but also on OSA, which, after all, is trapped as well as all others still in. You can’t expect the first direct comm. of an SP entity to be highly pro survival or even making any sense; it won’t, per definition. I also think it’s educational for your bloggers to see the Black ops in real time and be able to react on it, not just for awareness or mass, but also for fight back and fun. Maybe you remember a situation that you couldn’t fight back and thus had no fun. Apart from that, can you imagine what would happen if OSA would even further increase its tone level; I’ve had pc’s accusing me of the most horrible crimes, just to line charge a few minutes later over the very same topic; the one thing I didn’t do was avoiding it.