Source of NOTs technology - L Ron Hubbard
When you create a huge, open tent a lot of wonderful things occur – many of which we have been sharing on a daily basis here.
With no admission fee, no pre-requisites, no qualifications, no screening – you also get your share of hucksters, clowns and pick-pockets. I generally let people get along and encourage them to go along their own paths for the most part. But when the crime rate starts to escalate it doesn’t hurt to warn people about certain dark alleys.
I wouldn’t even address this subject if it were not for the demand that I do address it by several OTs who have heard me tell the story of the origin of New Era Dianetics for OTs (NOTS) technology. It seems that three decades of insistence by certain squirrels that David Mayo is Source of NOTs technology has had an effect in some quarters. The Mayo myth has lead many a truth seeker down a rabbit hole of bizarre, albeit sometimes interesting, diversions. It has served several not-quite-bright folk (with king-size, self-importance buttons) a handy justification that has been used for decades to palm off all manner of alterations as LRH technology.
I realize some will launch the most vicious of attacks for my presenting the facts as I witnessed them. No matter, this has never been a popularity contest.
I’ve got news:
1 – L Ron Hubbard discovered New Era Dianetics for O.T.s.
2 – L Ron Hubbard dictated the HCOBs for New Era Dianetics for O.T.s
3 – David Mayo did not discover New Era Dianetics for O.T.s.
4 – David Mayo did not write New Era Dianetics for O.T.s.
And for those wanting to practice standard tech outside of the suppression of the church, and for those lurking church of Scientology members I have good news: all of the NOTs HCOBs that have been readily available on the internet for the past fifteen years are FAR more on Source than anything foisted off as such in Miscavige’s church of Scientology.
OT VIIs and above, hear this about all those conditions formulas you did for out security, including the tens of thousands you might have been coerced into paying to get Ethics off your backs. Those conditions assignments were bogus and meaningless. In fact, they have been ruthlessly enforced by David Miscavige’s RTC for the past two decades for no other purposes than making money and controlling you and diverting attention from the fact that Miscavige, rather than being the savior of the sacred Bridge, in fact failed miserably in one of RTC’s few stated LRH purposes; to wit, protecting the security of the upper level materials of Scientology.
Here are the facts I witnessed that lead to the four conclusions at the outset of this post.
In the early eighties Robin Scott and some cohorts executed a rather clever scheme. They dressed up as Sea Org missionaires and strutted into AOSHEU exuding airs of strategic cunning. Scott announced they had been sent by Int Management to straighten out the org. Having full run of the org, they walked out with all confidential Advanced Tech material from R6EW right on up through NOTS.
Shortly after, David Mayo began heavily promoting the delivery of NOTS at his Advanced Ability Center (AAC) in Santa Barbara, California, under the name Advanced Ability 5. RTC sued Mayo and the AAC under the federal Racketering Influenced Corrupt Organizations (RICO) statute and the Trade Secret statute.
After a mini-trial (evidentiary hearing) a US Federal Judge enjoined Mayo, et al from using or distributing his AA5 material. During that hearing Mayo swore under oath that he had written the AA5 material from memory – without reference to the stolen Scott NOTs material. The Judge made a specific finding that Mayo was not a credible witness – particularly in his claim that he had re-written the material from memory because he wrote it in the first place.
Having been found a liar, the man with the self-proclaimed eidetic memory changed his story. He began stretching his claims to say in fact, not only did he write the materials, he discovered and developed them too.
Later the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals reversed the injunction on legal issues, not affecting the Federal Court Judge finding that Mayo was a calculating liar. The suit was amended to include copyright claims and Mayo was enjoined again.
Somebody will likely provide a special master’s finding of fact that Mayo wrote NOTs as a work-made-for-hire for the church (an excerpt was posted by I think Cat Daddy on an earlier thread). They won’t explain that the upshot of that later ruling – by an off the wagon alcoholic ex-judge sitting as special master – means simply that anything Mayo may have written in the name of L Ron Hubbard while in the chuch was legally written by LRH because Mayo was an employee of the church and working under L Ron Hubbard’s direction when he did so.
What the alcoholic master did not comment upon was irrefutable evidence that was placed before him that L Ron Hubbard discovered and effectively wrote every NOTs HCOB with Mayo’s assistance as a transcriptionist/compiler. The master didn’t comment upon it as he never reviewed the evidence, hated the church of Scientology and was doing everything in his power to help Mayo – whom he sympathized with. Now, whether Mayo was deserving of any sympathy is a matter of a decades old debate, irrelevant to the issue at hand.
The evidence the master refused to consider consisted of the original submission files for each and every original NOTs Series HCOB. Each HCOB had its own folder. Each contained one or more CSWs (completed staff work forms) written by Mayo to LRH asking for authorization to issue each HCOB of the NOTs Series. Each folder included each draft that was rejected enroute to full approval. I know this because I helped compile the evidence for presentation. Michael J Rinder knows this too – because he too reviewed and compiled the same evidence with me in a number of subsequent legal cases involving the NOTs materials.
Each proposed HCOB was accompanied by tape transcripts highlighted and numbered in the margins to demonstrate where each of LRH’s spoken sentences was lifted in order to compile each line of each HCOB. The package included the original audio tapes of LRH speaking the words that would become the HCOBs.
The audio tapes were recorded after sessions where Mayo audited LRH. After each session LRH would tell Mayo to turn on the tape player, then he would dictate exactly what had happened in the session, plus commentary of what the technical whys and wherefores for the phenomena of the session were and instructions for compiling HCOBs on the subject. Throughout hours upon hours of those audio tapes, Mayo can only rarely be heard with short, respectful acknowledgments. Most of Mayo’s responses consisted of “Yes, Sir”, “Got it Sir”, “I understand Sir.” Virtually every word of the HCOBs is taken from LRH’s transcribed spoken words.
Mayo’s job chiefly was to turn LRH’s spoken English descriptions into written English. And for those who have studied the original NOTs HCOBs I think you might agree Mayo didn’t even do such a great job of that. And now I am glad he did not.
Of course Mayo was LRH’s auditor during this period. And yes, LRH was ill and being audited by Mayo when LRH discovered NOTs. However, one thing is crystal clear when one reads the transcripts in sequence, which I did. Mayo attempted to audit LRH on Dianetics and LRH got worse. Clearly LRH recognized that there was something else at play, described it and instructed his auditor (Mayo) on how to handle it. Most of the transcripts consist of LRH explaining all that to Mayo and how NOTs works, how it ought to be audited, etc.
David Miscavige has made numerous alterations with “new improved” NOTs and Solo NOTs over the years. The most on Source, unaltered HCOBs on NOTs are the original NOTs series, the ones that have been readily available on the internet for the past fifteen years. I know that and Mike Rinder knows that because we ran litigation for more than twenty years that sought to prevent those very materials from being available in the public domain. And we compiled the evidence from LRH’s archives – described above – in years-long attempts to keep the materials secret. Alas, we (me, Mike, Warren McShane, and David Miscavige who micromanaged every step of the way) failed. And I could write a book detailing how Miscavige himself sabotaged even these efforts. He should be the last guy on the planet bemoaning NOTs materials in the public domain, and enforcing very expensive conditions assignments on pre-OTs who have committed alleged security breaches far less significant than his own.
I am not saying Mayo was not a good auditor or C/S. And I am certainly not condemning him as a person – after all, irrespective of his motives, he did play a large role in breaking the monopoly. I am saying he lied through his teeth when he said he discovered, developed and wrote NOTs.
Now, let the fur fly from both ends. I’ll be amused. I am simply relaying facts I witnessed. I am heading back to to my auditing room to audit some more pre-OTs, LRH style.
Moving On Up a Little Higher 
Thank you for taking the time to deconstruct.
This is one of a number of mysteries foisted upon many of the unsuspecting (trusting?) members over the years. I know this used to be one of mine.
Bruce
Wow, you’re on a roll man.
The opinion I’m left with is that Mayo made some mistakes/ let his integrity go out in this matter after he left the church. I think I understand why, but also that this is why he he isnt around. He sort of took himself out of the game by doing what he did.
Wow! I believe you.
Well, for me, I certainly have done nothing but SPIN in all the information overload in the big free tent out here! So often your posts straighten things out for me.
Marty, I know that there must be some (lol, probably a lot) real squirrels and SPs out here in the field, but since the CoM has randomly declared so many people as SPs (cried wolf so many times) it has became a mess where nobody really knows who might have been a real SP!! Another nice job by CoM.
There are so many theories, stories, testamonies and interviews the line between truth and lies is blurred to oblivion for me!!!
There are other stories (perhaps myths or lies) that I wish you’d address.
Actually I wish I could talk to you –
Thank you Marty for bringing this data to light. this puts DM and his bots in a funny position of claiming everything you say is lies. That validates the position that Mayo was the source of OT7. Perhaps he will solve the issue by claiming that he in fact is the source!
Sounds good to me brotha’. As long as they’re their for me when I get there.
There.
Incorrect usage of their in second sentence. I couldn’t figure out how to get all forms into that sentence.
Well, at some point you need to do something about this crap beyond blogging. I am waiting anxiously because I don’t see anybody but you and Mike up to the task. Yeah, I wrote a couple weeks ago that I was done yet here I am. What’s your plan?
Audit, train, and make a safe environment where others can too; for starters. What’s yours?
Marty: the amount of punishment visited upon pre-OT’s for “out security” as simple as letting their NOTS secure briefcase out of their site for a few minutes is extremely disgusting in light of this fact.
CONFIRMATION:
I was on the first NOTs course and was personally told by Mayo that the bulletins were from discovery in sessions and tapes R dictated afterwards as outlined in this post.
I was not privy to the trial information or what was said there.
The only thing Mayo told me in 83 after he left the church was that he thought the emphasis on the level should have been less on OT3 type material.
Other than that, he never personally claimed to me to be the discoverer of NOTs, perhaps in the trial he did.
LRH talked about NOTs phenomona as early as the 1950s, there are e meter demo sessions where he and Mary Sue work on something similar, but he didn’t define it succintly until the late 1970s. He got well when he unlocked that puzzle.
Glenn
you can’t be *wishing* very hard in respect to speaking with marty, since he speaks to anyone who attempts to open a comm – even anons like me!
marty’s email address is in this blog, no need to *wish* when you can just do!!
Why aren’t you up to the task, Cheese?
Sa-WEEEEEEET! That’s the kind of inside baseball I love.
Marty,
Though it is probably unnecessary and won’t convince anyone one way or the other (people will either accept this as fact or go on believing versions of stories they have heard about how Mayo “invented NOTs”) — I confirm everything you have written here, having witnessed the same events, read the same materials and listened to the same tapes as you.
Just one other comment, not based on the facts as you have recited them, but a train of thought that most who read this blog would understand. How realistic is it that David Mayo, in the midst of an auditing session with L. Ron Hubbard as his pre-OT, would say “Well, this isnt working out, I am going to just try something I dreamed up and see if it flies.” Not do the usual correction list, Just come up with some new commands, utterly different from anything that had been done before, with a completely different theory of how to address the case. Not a chance. He would not have dared. And neither would anyone who called themselves an auditor, let alone Snr C/S FSO.
I’m ok with that theory and agree. As it is very well laid out, thanks for the TPFE (Time, Place Form and Event).
I worked with Mayo on the Apollo he was a very dilligent CS that would from personal observation would literally dig into PC Folders and as mentioned have a high care for the PC. But no he did not nvent Ned for OTS. End of Story.
Very interesting information. I am quite comfortable that LRH did in fact discover NOTS but never knew just what role Mayo played it all this. I am glad I have clarity on this.
Thanks for the data. I look forward to more clarity and truth.
Centurion
That was morag bellmaine too – the top tech at aoshuk walked one day, the bisbeys and bellmaine’s and started independents in east grinstead. maybe mayo lied to wog justice in the way we were all taught to do, been there done that – and to save his arse
Marty,
Thanks for posting that.
I agree totally. It matches my observations and accumulated data over the years.
I felt that Mayo lied and his motives in doing so were to keep to the tech available outside the CofS but that is uproven and not really the main point and is an opinion. I met the guy and felt he was somewhat PTS. I also felt that he had his own agenda but then who doesn’t?
I have seen write ups of what the CofS is doing with NOTs and consider them an abyssmal tech degrade which violate basic principles of Scientology.
There are a couple of small points which seem of value from the write ups of later versions which I have seen. Obviously I won’t detail them here.
In my own auditing of self and others I have stayed with the 1978 versions as made available by those brave people.
I disagree with the statement “Robin Scott and some cohorts” as he was just a minor accomplice. The plan and its execution were put together by another far stronger individual. Robin received the strongest attack from the CofS as he was the most prominent after setting up a castle in Scotland as an AO. He doesn’t even consider himself a Scientologist any more.
In my not so humble opinion if you are auditing NOTs in the way written up in the original issues then you are doing the right thing for your PCs.
Well hells bells. Your description not only makes sense, but what Rinder said that no one in their right mind would make up tech as they go auditing LRH. It makes total sense and now the vacuum is filled. Thank you Marty and Mike.
ML Tom
Good data Marty, thanks. This has been a puzzle for me for some time.
I have been told that when the Church “found” previously “hidden” or “deleted” NOTs HCOBs and reissued NOTs, (in the 90’s) that at least one of the HCOB’s had been AAC materials rewritten as LRH. Any info on that or what materials were added at that time, if any?
I’m not trying to forward any idea that NON LRH data exists in the original NOTs materials, just attempting to clarify what occurred at that time (90’s) with the materials.
Agreed Mike.
I was on the set shooting EM 1, “Man the Unfathomable” in September 1978 when LRH took ill and disappeared. I was playing the shaman in the original version of the film and we were on location shooting a scene where I come out from my cave, dejected that my drumming and chants and bitter drink did not revive my patient, who died. We finished the shot and LRH went into his motorhome that he used between set ups. He never came back out and after a lengthy delay, David Roussouw (RIP) directed the last shot of the day.
Soon after, David Mayo showed up from Flag. I don’t know the details of what transpired except that LRH recovered and several weeks later we saw him out around the property again on his afternoon walks. Coincident with that we saw some transcripts of talks that were the first details of a new tech development that became NOTs. The transcripts were soon recalled and we did not see them again.
Here is what I suspect: a) NOTs rolled out much as Marty has detailed above (that is how we compiled things in RTRC) and b) LRH would have died had he been handled by another auditor.
That Mayo later asserted to be the author of the materials doesn’t seem out of the realm of possibility given his circumstances at the time. Imagine Marty trying to do what he is doing with no internet, or any of us for that matter.
I also agree entirely with Mike’s comment that no auditor, including Mayo, would begin inventing things mid-session, particularly on LRH in the physical condition he was in at the time.
The real mystery to me is how LRH could have held David Mayo in such high regard in April 1982 that he wrote several long, long dispatches to him about the future of Tech including whether David should set up a corporation separate from church management so tech research would not become commingled with management’s day to day production push, yet by summer of 1982, LRH was calling Mayo the lowest dog on the face of the earth. Makes no sense at all. One month, LRH is putting all the tech into Mayo’s hands. Three months later, he has him running around a tree in the boiling Hemet summer heat. Makes no sense.
DM, no doubt, was all over the lines, forwarding his own agenda. 1982 was the most chaotic year of my 27 in the S.O. and DM had ample opportunity to work his black magic.
(Speaking of Tech, I was reminded recently that LRH advised some pcs be put directly onto NOTs bypassing OT III as a pilot to see how it ran.)
It sure would be interesting if David Mayo (and the others who were taken out with him: Merrill Mayo, Julie Gillespie Mayo, Penny Eldredge and Scheri Al-Jibouri, who is still at the Int Base) were to tell his story. No one can be a good auditor and C/S and then turn into a lousy one. It just can’t happen. One can become involved in organizational difficulties and solve them poorly but one can’t audit LRH for years, be appointed the first Snr C/S Int, audit LRH back to health and provide him 8 more years of life and then turn into Evil personified. Can’t happen.
Maybe someday we will get the full story.
Bisbey was the top tech guy then I think not Morag.
Aye, I do email him. 🙂
But yet, I have so much to say, ask and evaluate……I have just so many unanswered questions. There are still things that don’t make sense and things that are so sensitive I wouldn’t put in comments or email. I meant speak to him.
And soon I will…… 😉
Ahhhhhhhh…truth. What a nice thing it is.
For those who want to train, really, and not with a runway 89 years long, but as it should be, well, there is training available. Good training. The real shit. LRH’s Scientology, and metering and TRs that you KNOW are done, no Q&A, nothing but the simple materials and then into session, actually auditing.
You CAN do the New Era Dianetics for OTs Co-audit checksheet and CO-AUDIT the RD up to doing your Solo Level. Really. Truly. And, guess what? NO INTERFERENCE just like it says in CS Series 73. Yeeeehaaaa!!! Then Solo NOTs, FULLY TRAINED, not just some little ‘briefing’.
Thank you, Marty. It is so important to have the truth. The CofS is full of secrets and lies. If LRH’s tech is to survive unaltered in the independent field it will be because we all have the truth and the real tech and confront to deal with it. Every time you set the record straight and correct the lies, or fill in blanks where there were only secrets before, we all win. And more suppression is lifted and the independent field gets a little more stable and on source. And thanks Glenn Samuels and Mike Rinder for adding your confirmations.
Great news Jim. I am so glad you have a Co-audit checksheet for NOTs. I co-audited NOTs on the RPF and it didnt take forever to get trained. Once you are a Solo auditor you have the basics and its not tough to get yourself onto NOTs. Of course, Dear Leader would never allow this as it would kill the revenue stream. But fortunately, we can operate on a hgher motivation than money.
Dearest Cheese, why don’t you just stick with your original decision, be “done” and go away? I, for one, don’t want to see your 1.1 comments and questions on here. It takes up valuable space that we use to actually communicate. Also I don’t want you to have another failed purp in life of trying to enturbulate Marty or anyone else on the blog. They are bad for you, you know.
alright, buddy, that’s about it. Fuck off, now.
Are there any dates for when DM began his alterations?
I’d like to pin-point this for myself.
LRH had messengers who were responsible for conveying communications between LRH and Mayo. One at least is viewing this list and the ex husband of another too. It is of course up to them to communicate as they wish.
Joe,
Well said, Truth be told, think that is happening on this subject.
Thanks Marty,
Now we can put to rest OSA’s *disinformation* campaign that the Ad Courses available in the field are totally bogus and that the “Church” (such as it is) is the only purveyor of the Bridge to Total Freedom.
To say that RTC *fucked up* would be putting it mildly.
Maybe they have those lightning bolts on their logo going the other way.
Hi Marty.
I always dreamed of a Scientology where the leaders were in actual comm with the group.
I appreciate what you said here. It rings like truth.
Mike and Jim,
I appreciate very much what you are doing to get the tech out there and used without the money motivation. That is also something that I always felt that a sane Scientology would do.
Marty and Mike,
Having been a watch messenger with LRH for many years including during the time LRH was researching NOTS with Mayo as his auditor, I can totally confirm what you and Rinder say is correct. LRH had been extremely ill at the time, so bad off that we honestly thought he was going to drop his body. Mayo was called from Flag to La Quinta and started taking LRH in session, as LRH got better, he started dictating what they were
discovering and doing in his sessions – normally LRH had done this research solo, but having been so ill, he required an auditor to help direct him and
handle the meter for him. During that time period, LRH mostly dictated his despatches and research which was typed by the messengers. Many messengers were not OT III or above, so Melanie Murray took on the hat of Messenger for Tech and typed up the dictations and worked directly with Mayo under LRH’s instructions on getting the NOTs tech properly compiled and written up by Mayo for LRH approval. Everything written by Mayo was sent through Melanie to side check to ensure it followed LRHs instructions before LRH reviewed, correct/changed and approved it.
Janis
Thank you Marty for this Post-one of your best. There are people who want to be Source or can’t see source. LRH knew this and put in measures to safeguard the Tech. Those safeguards have really been put to the test.
I have studied Scientology and practiced it for about 40 years. I get consistent results. How can I argue with that?? But, there are those who do and like a thief want to steal. Stolen property always gets corrupted.
It is the mode to point out LRHs imperfections. I wish I could be as imperfect as him and do everything he did.
Thanks for this information about David Mayo. It helps to put together the pieces of what was going at at Flag in the eary 1980’s. I was doing NOTs in those days and I can remember lots of confusion in the tech lines. For example, one time I went to Flag for auditing and there was no qualified auditor available. I met with a Mr. Franks who told me about the raging fire in the US society and that as head of Flag he was working to put it out. I did eventually get a tech interview at least on that visit. When I returned, I had a new very qualified auditor who started me on the OTV level. After about two days of auditing, which was going quite well, he said we had to start over because something was out of sequence. Well, we did that; and, although I saw it as sort of a waste of time, the outcome was all right. The next time I went to Flag, as I recall, I did not get an auditor but I got an intern giving her first session. Well, she was OK and all went well. At any rate, I got tired of all of this so I heard about David Mayo in California and decided to take a plane out there to see if I could find out why so many people I knew were so unhappy about the way things were going. I never met Mayo, but I did manage to get to his org offices. They thought I was a plant from the secret side of Scientology. Really I was not and I finally convinced them of this fact. At any rate, they gave me an interview and I decided not to get any auditing because they seemed so disorganized.
Well, NOTs did have a great reputation and people liked it. I went back to Flag and told them about the trip and I got into trouble and had to do a huge Ethics cycle. I told the EO about all that had happened. Of course, by this time Mr. Franks was gone, so I lost my line to the top and had to fend for myself. I eventually got back on NOT’s. They had to do a few of the steps over again beccause something else had changed in the tech. I eventually completed OTV which was at that time the name it was given.
Hope this helps to explain how it was from the customer viewpoint.
I’m glad its in the past.
I am nowhere near anything resembling an expert in tech, but what popped in my mind, put bluntly (I will look at the timelines later):
Where are these tapes now?
Are they positively identified as LRH speaking, Mayo acking, and not edited in any way?
What is the date of the tapes?
I have no vested interest in seeing one side “get credit” vs. another for NOTs. However, with what has been described as being recorded (lots of LRH, easy on the Mayo), is it pretty obvious or otherwise a guarantee that these tapes were not made after the NOTs writings?
“And for those wanting to practice standard tech outside of the suppression of the church, and for those lurking church of Scientology members I have good news: all of the NOTs HCOBs that have been readily available on the internet for the past fifteen years are FAR more on Source than anything foisted off as such in Miscavige’s church of Scientology.”
I LOVE THIS MARTY!! Thank you for posting it!
Hope many people read it!!
They have the change to go free being free…
Love
I meant Chance… 😀
Silvia Kusada
There is also the theory that LRH decided at some point that people would be happier if they thought all the tech came from one source. David Mayo would have gone along with that and let LRH take all the credit for the development.
But let me ask you this? If LRH was so ill he couldn’t stand on his own feet to direct the movie, is it possible Mayo took a look at him and said, “We need to do something here. What do you notice, Ron?” and then from that helped Ron develop the thing. I do not believe that Ron was well enough to develop it all himself without assistance. Otherwise, why would he have asked for any help at all? He could have just gone exterior, noticed what needed to be done, and proceeded to do it. Also, one of the main tools of Scientology is communication. For that, you need two terminals. And David Mayo was undoubtedly one of the two. The other being Ron.
Okay, blast away, I know somebody won’t be able to resist. But LOL, I love ya anyway.
make it go right
“I felt that Mayo lied and his motives in doing so were to keep to the tech available outside the CofS but that is uproven and not really the main point and is an opinion”
Since when are Motives and looking for the who and why not important per Scientology.
You do have a good point there.
Maybe best to ask David Mayo, Merrill Mayo, Julie Gillespie Mayo, Penny Eldredge etc. directly, – they are still out there and ‘ independents ‘ are in contact. While reading the above, like ‘ Joe Howard ‘ mentions, the situation did not make sense. LRH and the whole organization was under such great attack in the early 1980s, I am sure there were reasons that LRH treated Mayo the way he did, and it is very likely that things may not be as they appear to many of us, and maybe he set it up that way for good reason, who knows, maybe this was set up that way to save the tech, we just don’t know. If things seemed strange, they were. Who knows, maybe he felt the best way to save the tech under such strong attacks were do some actions that maybe many would not understand, but in the long run the best for everyone. The tech did survive, we all have it for free and people continue up the bridge, that is the intention and the main focus. Read the success stories from the many successful Independent Freezone Scientology Centers – some of which have staff that were directly trained by LRH – auditors and C/Ss working full time now in the Independent field. I consider David Mayo a great Auditor, C/S and a great friend and believe that what ever actions were done – were done with the best intentions for all, actions by both Mayo and LRH.
Thanks Marty for giving us the full story and the true data about where NOTS came from. This idea that it was Mayo’s tech has been a primary lie in the independent field for over 25 years and has, as you say, acted as a justification for some people to believe that if Mayo could do it, then they could start making up valid tech too!
It is inconceivable that Mayo would show up when LRH was so sick and start to audit him on a process he invented.
The data I have is that LRH had been being audited on Dianetics by Paulette Ousley when he got sick. Mayo was a good programmer and he audited LRH on a program he wrote, but he did it using the OT3 tech. As soon as LRH started feeling better, he started having realizations about what had been happening case wise. He realized that you could not run Dianetics on OTs for their body problems. That is when he invented the NOTS techniques, instructed Mayo on how to run them, and then the rest of the story unfolds. I also understand that the repair program that Mayo wrote for LRH ended up being the first 14 steps of the NOTS Rundown.
Maybe Marty could confirm or correct that data.
Marty,
Thanks for helping us blow yet more confusion.
This shit is good to know.
Question:
Could anyone clear up for me, or can anyone remember – in the early 1990s, there was this epidemic of everyone talking about “Mayo NOTS” in the orgs. I recall it was “found” by DM that “Mayo had squirreled the NOTs, and that several people who had received the “Mayo NOTs”, had to go back to be cleaned up. I recall this was outlined by DM in one of the events broadcast to Cape Town. It was stated that the “squirrelled Mayo NOTs” had been found, removed, and replaced with the original Hubbard version. I also recall, there was a joke about the “mayonnaise NOTs”. It was a big thing at the time, and a topic of much discussion among the OTs around.
I would really appreciate it if anyone can shed some light on this, as I have been puzzled about this whole thing for a long time. If Mayo did not write the NOTs, (I have no particular attachment to the idea of him being the author, or not) then why was there this whole “new why” going around in the early 1990’s about “Mayo NOTs”. Was that a lie too, or what…..???
Some clarity on that particular event horizon would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Joe Howard just brought up the mystery of the Mayo-LRH relationship going south pretty quickly in ’81-82. This is a very big mystery to me as well, one I’ve been thinking about for the past decade.
From “full trust with the tech” for the future 20 years to an SP. Can’t happen. I agree. Seems very improbable.
Another inconsistency I can’t get my wits around relates to posts that Sarge and a few others have made about LRH’s deteriorating physical condition at Creston those last four-to-six [unclear?] years.
Why weren’t a couple of Class 12’s called in to live with and help the man? One would think a few could have been spared from their duties at FSO and they might have bought LRH another decade of life to do research and perhaps write up and pilot the upper OT levels on us a bit. Piloting sure seems sensible.
No one discusses those final years in much detail. I know you, Marty, have mentioned you’ll write about it in your book one day to frame it in a proper context. Fair enough.
As an Old OT7, New OT7 and seasoned auditor, I don’t understand why he was not given more help. He was our most valuable “asset,” if you will, at the time. His exit off the stage was perhaps not one befitting the sacrifices he made for us over the years. Where was the Class 12 help?
AFAIK, none of the people at Creston would have be capable of auditing or CSing for him. Was he cut adrift? Did I misread the situation?
Or have I missed reading some posts? Sincere question.
Whale Oil Beef Hooked. Thanks, that clarified matters a lot.
One of the very best topical posts on this Site yet.
Marty, what’s your take on the ’96 revision NOTS repair/correction List?
Does anyone have a copy of it?
I haven’t seen it yet? Some people have been asking to see it.
creepy.
Does anyone here know where Mayo is today and how he is doing? Anyone here in comm with him?
As “imperfect” as he may have been (such as all of us are), he certainly was a great man back in the day and I salute him for his accomplishments and contributions.
I know that I am not at the level to really understand and grasp upper level material. Especially NOTS. But as I had been Ethics Officer in Germany and as there had been Bill Robertson in full action there and his followers I had (unknown to me at that time) some of them on my desk feeding me with upper level stuff to cave me in. And I did cave in body wise. Thus I had a big interest to study all I can find on the net regarding that time frame (82 to 85 especially) and also had a glance on upper level stuff on the net. Purpose was and is to find my way out. The Robertson Mayo style NOTS stuff I did not really understand but what I have read I rejected as cannot be true. But as I know that I cannot understand that stuff I could not decide if it is false data or if I cannot grasp it as it is not my level. Now I consider it true what you write here and it might help a lot to sort things out from the past. Thanks for that stable data.
Maybe I mentioned it already but I witnessed in I think it had been late April or early May 1982 a theft of upper level material in AOSH EU. From a single person that had been AOSH EU staff. He had QM and that night he stole his pc folders and some upper level material. By the way an OT could find him in Germany and get back that stuff from him.
Wow! OT 5 co-audit? Am going for a sit down now as I’m going all weak at the knees….
I had to do Lower Conditions one time for walking out of the Sandcastle confidential Part B courseroom and into the hallway with the forgotten pack tucked under my arm. I had to vacuum the carpet and do other cleaning as ‘amends’. What a crock of horse dung.
They routinely made you check the soles of your shoes for the possibility of stuck clay demo labels.
On VIII on the Freewinds you had to practically run with the pack to plug the security cable in before the alarm went off or you were in trouble.
Who’s the “stronger individual”?
Awesome Marty!
Thank you so much. Another lie bites the dust!
I slaved on the printing and compilation project of the new NOTs packs in 1991 and felt that the presentation was much clearer now but I did not have the original material at hand to compare the 2 versions.
DM is not likely going to tell us the truth why LRH changes his mind about the value of David Mayo. Either Mayo goofed -there was that cycle about the definition of ‘Clear’ that was misapplied- or it was plain 3rd party going on. Could Pat Broeker possibly be convinced to shed some light on this?
As to LRH’s change of heart, a lot of that is covered in past pages and threads on this blog. Pat is not likely to spread any light, and the reason or that is also covered. Probably the best summary of eye witness account to all that is contained in the Gang of Five article on Scientology-cult.com.
I am not encouraging people to read it before they have made it to the level. Robertson is a good example of the diversions mentioned in the post.
Hey Jim,
Do you know who’s idea it was in the church to designate a NOTS trained auditor as a ‘Class IX’ without first being Class VIII? I always thought it was misleading and invalidative of Class VIIIs.
I agree. Back in those days I did not read that stuff but as I mentioned I had been in contact with some data of that stuff. To be more correct: Not only by verbal communication but by reading lots of reports. Someday it had been too much for me. Then my dynamics exploded and life had been very difficult.
I did about eleventeen re-dos of NOTs, including the original ‘Mayo NOTs’ in the church as it was called and then more and more re-dos as they kept ‘finding’ more omitted rundowns and sections of it.
Thanks for the facts. I’m curious how much testing was done after the techniques were applied to LRH, how much revisions made their way into the bulletins after they were codified? And what was the reason that many people got cancer while doing NOTs as early as when Robin Scott took the confidential material from AOSH EU?
Speaking of Mayo, does anyone know how much he was paid to go away and why they paid him?
‘It is the mode to point out LRHs imperfections. I wish I could be as imperfect as him and do everything he did.’ Yes, well said!
OK. Thankyou Marty. I am a bit quick. Get introverted alot and have a need to take persistent walks ( space out)
DOCS??? ANY documentation of ANY of this? Not just hearsay, or someone heard someone else say, but DOCS???
I thought so
Great article.
You have no idea how long I’ve been waiting to hear this story. Thank you for the details Marty. It’s such a good thing to get the truth.
Was there ever any court ruling awarding anything to Mayo?
Mayo obviously was a good auditor and CS or LRH wouldn’t have had him working with him. But something tech related must have occurred to end that and so what if you can and will tell us – really happened that busted him from post and out of Ron’s protection?
Please forgive me if this is already answered in the comments. I went straight to originating to you after reading your posting.
p.s.
I haven’t been able to keep up lately and the reason will be coming to you shortly Marty – because I think you’ll appreciate the details.
Kim,
I did OT5 in 1983. Although there were definite steps it wasn’t rote. I had a tailored handling that gave me the biggest OT5 win ever to this day.
In the mid 80’s 2 rundowns were added to OT5. They were called the “Held Down 7” and “Stability” rnds. I was told that these rundowns were left off OT5 by David Mayo. (I now doubt this). I went to Flag, got the new rundowns, they were good and that was that. In around 1991 a New OT5 came out. I was OT7 by this time. The New OT5 line up for Solo NOTs guys was called “the Updates”. This was when I guess as you said, Mayo was blamed again for OT5 not being right and now we all had to redo the entire level. We were also told we needed to go back on OT7 as no one had actually comped. I believe this was the start of New OT7. In addition, we all had to redo OT6. So, I did New OT5, redo of OT6 and back on OT7. I was lucky to have a great auditor, who did not overrun me so, I got through OT5 rather quickly. The OT6 course was lengthy and then back on 7 again.
In 1996 I was moving well on 7 when GAT came out. Another redo of OT6, along with new elig and I was back home auditing again. I won’t go into details but, there was a new major correction of OT7 along with all the GAT stuff. The promise was that with the addition of the GAT stuff that OT7 would now handle anything that could be wrong with a case.
I recently got a call from the ship. The r-factor was something like if you are not experiencing the “full glory” of OT8 it could be because there are things undone or partially done on your case. And that this will be handled on your set ups for OT9 and 10.
Kim, I’m not sure why things like this happen but, it is still happening.
Maybe it is Marty’s fault, not.
Hope this helps, Laura
Come on John Williamson. C of M has those docs in a dark dungeon, under lock and key, along with all other LRH originals. They will never see the light of day as long as DM is around. Please, DM re-wrote all LRH books and checksheets, and no one asked to see DOCs. Every event he blathers on about his “dicoveries” of lost tech, and no one asks to see DOCs. The guy blows smoke out of his butt so hard he’s like a choo choo train. Marty throws a little light on one DM’s big lies and you want to see DOCs? Dude, tell CO OSA Int it’s over, there is just no damn point. Hey, how about you use your real name..?
I thought so
Cheese,
you wrote: “Well, at some point you need to do something about this crap beyond blogging.”
—” BEYOND BLOGGING”- ?????
Don´t you read any comments and replies???
Just to remind you of what can happen to only ONE person, in this case it is me, also due to Marty blogging. I just wrote this some days ago:
“I am so glad that I am out and that I recovered my life, my hopes, my freedom of speech, my freedom of thought, living and enjoying life. My comm with others is opening up more and more. I AM again. It feels great.”
And if I would write down ALL the positive changes which happened in my life since I am following Marty`s blog (and also Thoughtful´s blog) it would take up a lot of space, it would be page after page after page.
Just to give you an idea: It´s worth several RD´s.
Read: http://www.scientology-cult.com/the-sleeping-giant.html
I would like Mike Rinder, if he can, to tell how much money he (as CO OSA INT) paid to gag Mayo, and how much freedom the gag agreement leaves to Mayo (supposing he is still alive) to refute accusations made on him.
Co$ (secretly from Scientologists) paid huge amounts of (our) money to gag ex-scientologists so that they wouldn’t tell us their stories. That’s a shame.
gandiguy,
You silly goose. Madmen are not bothered by logic, data or truth. I’ve never found a fact yet that would change the mind of someone operating from a fixed idea.
What Marty wrote on Mayos’s role in NOTs development does not differ much with what Mayo has been saying all along.
That is Mayo’s side of the story:
“… there is also been some controversy about the subject of NOTs or Solo NOTs and certain issues that I wrote or I didn’t wrote on the subject and the truth of the matter is that I did audit LRH and I did audit him on NOTs and he was the first pre-OT to be audited on NOTs and the NOTs rundown was developed while I was auditing him. I have never claimed credit for having developed all of NOTs or anything like that but it is also true that I did have some contributions in the development of NOTs.
Yesterday I received a very upset phone call from a scientologist in Los Angeles who has been visited by Sandy Wilhere and had been told that I was falsely claiming that I developed all of NOTs and so on and so forth and he was very upset to hear that. And the truth of the matter is I have never claimed to have done that but I think is timely that I should mention the fact that NOTs was developed as a result of the auditing that I did do on LRH and I did have something to do with it. He and I worked together on the development of NOTs and he actually asked me to write up the NOTs HCOBs for him, which I did, I typed them up, he went over one by one, each one of them and approved before they where issued.
And just recently I received the mailing that many of you people may have received too which was a promo piece from FSO and it had another one these black and white unsigned statements attached to it saying something to the effect that Mayo purposely and deliberately sabotaged the NOTs materials and it’s only just been discovered and corrected; and that’s completely untrue because as bad as may have been at times I never deliberately and purposefully tried to sabotage anything, but also LRH did in fact read all these bulletins and approved them in great details, and at the time when I was auditing LRH on NOTs and he was reading the issues (and) he asked me to write up on it Deedee (?) was the CO CMO International at the time and she was there on duty and saw all of that. So, I felt it was time to mention that and, as with the HRD Deedee can verify that that is what occurred on the subject of NOTs. …”
” … So, there are a number of other statements made and I don’t want to bore anybody by going into the details, I have been called a squirrel and a criminal and I think about just everything now, except, I point out, that I haven’t been called a Lemming yet. And as most people know Lemmings have suicidal impulses, they all go together in hordes(?) and rise(?) long jump into the sea and drown together; which I feel is somewhat appropriate to these times. So, as long as I am called anything but a Lemming, is okay. …”
–David Mayo, 1984
You can linsten to the above and more in Mayo’s own voice in David Mayo AAC tape 10.mp3 found here:
http://www.freezoneearth.org/downloads/files.html
I think it is unfair to call Mayo a liar because what he was telling people (see Tape and see Glenn Samuels comment) does not differ much with Marty’s story.
I think it is also unfair especially after Co$ supposedly paid Mayo millions(?) to gag him, to not be able to defend himself.
Who was spreading the myth of “Mayo is claiming to be the Source of NOTS”, in order to discredit Mayo credibility?
Co$ (Sandy Wilhere)! Who is a liar then? Once again we have Co$ being the mother of all the biggest lies.
It is unfortunate that many people still believe in Co$ lies, including the “Mayo claims to be the Source of NOTs” lie.
It is indeed a fortune that, thanks to Mayo and Scott and other brave early independents, Co$ lost its monopoly over LRH Tech.
Glenn,
Love hearing first hand accounts. Unlike fruit flies, rumors don’t care who they sleep with to produce offspring.
When I read the NOTs bulletins I didn’t see much other than procedures and emphasis that hadn’t been addressed from ’51 through ’54. For me, it was like reading about engram running in New Era Dianetics. The basic material on engrams and chains hadn’t changed, just an approach to handling them.
Nothing in NOTs changed the factors and axioms. The material is simply a practical application of those principles.
I heard it was about 2 million dollars. They paid him to settle the court cases and just make them go away I heard.
Good attempt at the Anon lingo tho
Oh Mike,
Stop being so fucking logical. Here I am slopping around in my personal mudpit of mystery and you go turning on the cold hose of reality. I was having sooooo much fun not knowing.
Here I’d imagined Mayo flying down in a cape, lifting LRH’s bedraggled thetan from the fiery pits, gently laying him on comforters of down, listening to the Auditing Muses as they sang songs of auditing wisdom. “Aha!” he would shout, “Ron, have I got news for you!”
And with that, we were ushered into a new age of insight.
Christ!
Now I’ll have to put on some clothes. One of the best things about being covered in mud is that no one can see your wanky.
Laura,
Thanks for your input. When you first finished you were New OT VII. The OT VII was the original bridge since early 70’s. When you were told you needed more this was referred to as New OT VII Expanded. Only if you completed did you get New OT VII Expanded. Anyone doing it the first time just finished New OT VII.
When you get a young person on a survey you get a blank look when you answer what you are. Most now don’t really understand there are 4 different OT7’s. OT7 EP, Full OT7, New OT7, and New OT7 Expanded.
There was also OT8 (never released), New OT8 (maiden voyage release), New OT8 expanded (those made to redo New OT8.)
When I asked I could get NOBODY to admit that the level was being changed. It was always the generality of something else was found to “handle” and the usual easy to blame target was “Mayo”. Sometimes it was “it was found that David Mayor had altered the materials.”
The latest R factor about undone or partial done case probably has to do with purif, objectives, OT DRD, etc. Always has to be something to get someone done on a level to agree to do more of it. Trying to make the treadmill different by changing the background or something.
What I know for sure is none of us are the cause of these changes. We don’t live in “Kansas” anymore. We went down the rabbit hole and came in the real world – we have good, bad and ugly and even some dirt that we can actually observe. I know, it would be better if it was all roses and tulips, but that isn’t the truth of this mudball we live on. Nobody can keep dressing the pig and convince all of us that its a poodle. Here we get the truth – you have been sitting on the couch with a pig next to ya. If you wanted a poodle then you can get a different pet.
Marty’s fault? I agree with you – NOT. We are just a witness to alteration of the tech and PR by redefinition to cover it up.
“Now, let the fur fly from both ends”
Thank you Marty
I don’t know about Fur, but alot of Shooting Stars & Fireflys out tonight.
“The audio tapes were recorded after sessions where Mayo audited LRH. After each session LRH would tell Mayo to turn on the tape player, then he would dictate exactly what had happened in the session, plus commentary of what the technical whys and wherefores for the phenomena of the session were and instructions for compiling HCOBs on the subject. ”
————————————————————————————–
The omitted. Recordings of the sessions themselves. There is ZERO evidence about any collaboration (pro or con) during the sessions themselves. Ergo, no way to actually know how much was R and how much, if any, was Mayo as far as development input. Data Series is a wonderful thing.
Janis,
Thank you very much. I really appreciate it when you post. The personal observation and simplicity of your statements are something most of us can never begin to match. There are few that were trusted and able to do what you did working with LRH for so long. I enjoy this and I believe he would too.
Jon Atack and Ron Lawley appeared to me to be the major organizers of the event. Despite Jon’s later denigration of LRH and Scientology, at that time he was the strongest influence in the UK Independent Field. After a meeting with Gerry Armstrong Jon changed considerably, started attacking LRH and reverted to drugs.
It was Jon who insisted that the materials were not to remain exclusively in the hands of the AACs and ensured that they were distributed broadly.
OTDT,
It was the same for me. I can’t count all of the re-do’s. I think I completed the level in just about all of the possible sequences. I do remember my auditor at one time telling me that Mayo put the last steps first and the first steps last and this was given out as the reason for that re-do. I was also told that several steps were “omitted”. I actually was getting something out of all of the sessions so it did not really bother me. So many people were blown out in the early days and I remember at one time the rise in the graph of money paid for NOTS started at the bottom of an eight foot wall and the paper had to be extended two feet onto the ceiling. I think Mayo “smelled the money” and I thing think that he set up his office in California because that is where the market was in those days. I remember the fierce legal battles over NOT’s. Some people were paying more than a $100,000 for hours upon hours. It was hot.
Personally, I never felt that all of the re-sequencing was needed. The level was easy to understand for me because I had almost memorized the PDC lectures which was a massive task. That theoretical knowledge was most helpful in taking the mystery out of NOTS. In addition, the substance of what NOTS really dealt with was hinted at in many other religious traditions including the Christian theology. I think LRH’s genius was in organizing a metered technology for dealing with the problem. This problem was recognized by others but he had a far better methodology.
Someone once mentioned to me that David Mayo moved to the Dominican Republic after a settlement with Scientology. I can tell you that he had a very active group in the 1980’s. A girl friend of mine invited me to her home to listen to tapes produced by David Mayo. I remember one in particular was the subject of “Friendship”. My friend was impressed by this tape and played it for me several times. Mayo claimed that the biggest outpoint in Scientology was the “lack of the idea of friendship”.
She played several other tapes dealing with technical issues. I could never really accept or follow Mayo. When he put his voice on all of the tapes in the 1980’s he was trying to “summarize” the findings. This just did not work and sounded very presumptuous.
I think that when DM took over, he was “clueless”. He substitued his own limited understanding into the fermenting conflict, and made it the norm. I remember thinking about a particular donation for auditing which I made when DM first started. I granted him authority to proceed and to move forward. In the end, he could not even put a toe into LRH’s shoes while thinking he had mastered Scientology.
Several thoughts. And I’m not Clear, much less OT, but I like to think I’m a pretty logical guy:
1) Mayo is still a resource. Not “source,” but a resource to slam in the Tech that DM has managed to botch all to hell.
2) This brings me to this – RTC has failed, miserably, to do their established job: preserve and protect the copyrighted materials of LRH, especially the Upper Level OT material. The fact that the HCOB’s can be found on-line, to me, is grounds for permenant dissolution of RTC, throw everyone in their proper lower condition, scrap the organization and start from scratch.
3) The concept that the tech is preserved in permenant “titanium” plates in underground bunkers is shot! If the the CoS is STILL getting it wrong at this date, then there is no way whatever they are trying to preserve is correct.
The whole history of tech preservation is a cluster f***. The Church and LRH were forever under attack, and for all intents and purposes still ARE to this day. That things truly ARE this bad is only proof positive that David Miscavage is one of the ultimate suppressives for having usurped power and control of the “church” that has the Tech to free mankind… and spin it, and the PC’s/Pre-OT’s into oblivion. He deserves nothing short of a firing squad.
BUT… I think Mayo should come out of hiding, if he is. I know I have searched for him and been unsuccessful in finding him. With all the truth coming out the way it is, his confirmation of things could help blow the lid off of DM and his suppressive organization and actually might break the dam for the fall of Co$.
However, with that, the vaccum will need to be filled with people who actually DO have the Tech. Which to me means consolidation and varification of the Tech, and getting it into the hands of those who can deliver it, not to mention establishment of the admin personel needed to expidite the lines. Marty said he could use two admin people.
God, I feel like I’m back at the begining staring Square One in the face.
That was how the first NOTs course students at Flag got their own NOTs. There was really no choice but to co-audit.
Trey,
What you said about justification for inventing tech makes sense. I’ve noticed that even simple, basic concepts such as ARC are not well understood, which leads to alterations. Non-confront of the problem just leads to a dwindling spiral of solutions generating problems generating solutions. Instead of just applying the simple basic understandings to a predictable result, the independent field has had an explosion of “new tech.”
I call it “processitis,” an aberrant disposition to invent processes. For example, instead of just confronting communication, a person just makes up more and more processes to “increase his ability to communicate.” The processes begin to act as a substitute for confront. (This after the person attests to level 0)
Granted, there are experiences and conditions that exist beyond the human condition, beyond this universe, which are not fully addressed by the available tech in Scientology–at least not as current processes and procedures and grades and levels. And, granted more research needs to be done. But, goodness me, land sakes alive. The problems most of us are trying to handle actually are handled with the tech sitting there now–including those covered by hidden standards.
Michael
Way to be part of the solution, John.
C.S.W. my friend. kkthx
This clears up a lot for me. It also validates what I already believed to be true.
People didn’t start dying on NOTS until it was changed by the brutal dictator.
Oh and by the way…….Was talking to a friend of mine who has known many “in the closet” homosexuals. He said with men they are usually mean and upset a lot. The first though I had was that DM is really gay but really pissed about it and can’t tell anyone. LOL What a trap that would be. OMG 🙂
Jim,
I would say something really, really, really nasty to you just so you know I still love you. But this post of yours is so fantastic, I’ll just, sniff, say, …. ah, sniff, shucks. Go for it, Big Guy.
Michael
ps. ain’t it strange the number of individuals who wring their hands wondering Oh who, oh who will get tech going in the field?
I have been C/S Italy and I left the Church in 1983. Before I was in Flag for 5 months (1982) translating Solo Nots for Italians. I was supposed to go to work in LA with David Mayo. I opened an Advanced Ability Center in Milano. I was in Santa Barbara with David Mayo in 1984 and in Scotland with Robin Scott. I don’t understand all this discussion about David. He was a friend of mine and I saw him last time in Switzerland few years ago. He never claimed with me to have “discovered” NOTs. Why you take up what he said during a court case? A court case is not an open and free communication. NOTS is NOTs. There are few commands and then on these few commands you can make 2 – 5 or 20 RDs. You should talk about David and Robin with a little more respect and stop to figure-figure. Maybe you should be more interested in finding out WHY you have been in that Church for so many years under suppression and maybe suppressing (grade II auditing not NOTS) .
Janis,
Do you have any stories posted anywhere about your experiences with LRH? Love to see them.
Michael
Ingrid,
As for LRH’s imperfections: Small beings have small faults because they are incapable of more. Large beings, with the exact same fault, seem to have huge and glaring defects. Grand fires burn brightly, weak ones barely glimmer.
Thanks for the data Marty. It’s been wild being out only a bit over a year and trying to sort through all the data on the net. Anyone can say anything here and most do, usually without and evidence or track of any kind. It’s very valuable to hear from you and the others who were in the thick of things at the time. My only exposure to Mayo was the ‘Secrets of Flag Results’ film in 1980, then his destruction and declare a couple years later with the explanation that he was setting himself up as Source, and no-one noticed his SPness except a lowly class IV auditor. No need to speculate who that might have been.
I’d run accross many varied views of Mayo and his origination of NOTS so it’s good to straighten it out.
Mark
I am glad to hear that David is being forthcoming with you.
It is not that complicated. The tech is available and being applied. Splurge on it.
Please note how quickly these squirrels turn on each other, sort of a like a snake eating their young. More importantly, perhaps someone can explain why we should believe Marty over Mayo when Marty has a history of beating his subordinates and lying under oath. It’s a well-known fact that squirrel groups don’t last very long. Case in point, can anyone visit David Mayo’s AAC?
That is a very sane view you shared with us.
+1
So is freedom from literalness.
Thank you for having published my post. That means you are a good person after all (ah! ah! ah!) like my friend Claudio Lugli says!!
I have to agree with John. This right now is a he said/he said.
It seems just as likely that Mayo was ousted because he was too close to Hubbard, and people considered him a future person to watch when a power struggle would ensue upon the death of Hubbard.
I didn’t call him a “liar.” I said he lied through his teeth and he did. You just caught him temporizing it after he was called out on it. To answer your question about who said Mayo developed NOTs – go check with the CBR people and their fifty something OT levels. Ask some piercing questions on what lead to that psychosis.
@”John Williamson”: you just got eyewitness testimony from two eyewitnesses. Eyewitness testimony is not “hearsay”. That *IS* “Dox”, even if subject to challenge with counter testimony.
You know perfectly damned well the original Ron Hubbard notes, instructions, tapes and other materials are being held under lock and key by David McSavage and cohorts, so no other Dox are possible than eyewitness accounts at this time.
Michael A. Hobson
Mike, recognize this guy is at best a synthetic personality programmed to create conflict.
I’d like to ask Marty a succinct question: is the “New NOTS” that was released in the 1990s LRH?
I think Claudio is maybe being “reasonable” about me because he is my friend too.
Ciao Marty,
as discussed in Casablanca I think that this post is PURE GOLD. It settles the matter once for all, and gives back due acknoledgment to LRH. The other approach was a real subtle invalidation of it all.
NOTs is a fantastic level and give gains that are beyond anybody dream, if correctly applied, and done in the right enviroment. I think in the Church of DM there is no possibility of real stable gains due to the suppression rampant in the enviroment.
I firmly beleive that NOW is the time to go OT once for all.
Best,
Claudio
No.
Ciao Claudio. Congratulations on expanding your clan!
“I am sure there were reasons that LRH treated Mayo the way he did”
distrust
I thank him for kicking the CO$ but and I am glad the CO$ alsoo provided him a pension.
Laura — I don’t know about Kim, but this helped me very much!
You wrote the sequence of your auditing/training cycles so succinctly that I could actually get a picture of what was going on from 1983 up to your recent call from the ship.
Yes, I also heard somewhere along the way that Mayo was “blamed.” At the time it didn’t affect any Bridge cycle I was doing, so I just acknowledged it.
But, I actually see a pattern here. Sign up for a service, do the service, find out someone did something wrong regarding the service, sign up for the corrected service, do the corrected service, find out …
Well, I needn’t go on as I’ve described the pattern.
My personal experience involves the basic books. In 1981 or so, I undertook a personal rehabilitation project and read every LRH non-fiction book I could get my hands on. What a change in viewpoint I had as a result! It’s very difficult for me to accept errors in those original books and find someone(s) “blamed.”
I no longer buy that operating basis. The point being that when a book, level, rundown, etc., is released, it should be released “stet.”
Definition from on-line dictionary: “Stet is a Latin word (meaning “let it stand”) used by proofreaders and editors to instruct the typesetter or writer to disregard a change the editor or proofreader had previously marked.”
In other words, the book, level, rundown, etc., stands as issued. I doubt we need “new discoveries” if it was done correctly in the first place.
With an efficient compilation machine (and I don’t mean printing press), there is actually no need for blame or the never-ending cycles of action that have been created. Gather data from LRH advices, prepare it, present it, pilot it, quality control it, disseminate it, deliver it, etc., to a done. Get on to the next cycle!
To keep going back, finding mistakes and who made them, is a very inefficient operation as we now can observe and, as a result of the observation, move on up a little higher. H
OSA never saw a potential conflict that might be turned into a real one that they could restrain themselves from attempting to exacerbate. Your moniker is as phony as your comm. But here is my message to you and the crud who sent you: You are basically good, and we are going to see that you come through this all right.
The Motto of the Day:
The Tech is available and being applied.
SPLURGE ON IT!
Thank you, M.
Believe you me there are things you wouldn’t do.
I just FedExed you all the docs. Tracking # 1x98456d18-g43e51-7k316b-4d36-s436468
Marty — yeah, I don’t do well with synthetics. They rub me the wrong way. Prefer cotton, wool or silk.
Thanks DFB, I needed a little assist with that.
This is news, means David Mayo was still alive in 2008/2009
Alsoo Welcome, hope to hear more of you.
Sapere Aude,
Yes, of course! Thanks for clarifying the OT7’s and 8’s titles. I was mistaken on the titles. Thanks for helping me out. ml, Laura
I am never surprised by what lies people will tell under oath to save their ass – and they even start believing their own lies after a while too…
Marty, I must say, you ROCK! 😀
“And for those wanting to practice standard tech
outside of the suppression of the church,
and for those lurking church of Scientology
members I have good news:
All of the NOTs HCOBs that have been readily
available on the internet for the past fifteen years
are FAR more on Source than anything foisted off
as such in Miscavige’s church of Scientology.”
THANK YOU for clarification, Marty!
This is HISTORICAL.
The only thing DM has REAL fear are OTs made outside of his control.
THIS is sooooooooooo scary as it gets for him. UAU!!!!!
honk! Honk!
I got to OT VIII and I just learned within the last few months that Class IX’s were not auditors who had done Class VIII. I was shocked and, frankly, a little pissed off. Seems like a serious misrepresentation to me and degrade of Class VIII’s. That said, I’ve known most Class IX’s to be very caring individuals and committed to me winning as a pc/pre-OT. Would be thrilled to see all of them become indies.
May I add an “amen” to that.
Cat Daddy – your statement is missing a few words as I believe it should read, “distrust, due to third party by an individual that had major withholds that Mayo was about to pull.” Read the story by Gang of Five for the truth.
OUaT~Your imagery never ceases to crack me up! 😆
Wahoooo!
The plants are out in full force!
You got a hot one baby!
😀
must…take…life…more…seriously…like…the…OSA…bots……..
I saw a video of David Mayo once and he seemed like an alien person almost, now I understand a lot better.
“CBR people” is generality, Marty.
So, is freedom from MU’s…
Robin???? Respect????
Why? Because he demands it?
Because he slurs any person who dare stand up to him and challenge his constant natter about Marty and Mike because they refuse to remain ‘connected’ up to him so they can listen to his constant barrage of Hallucinogenic accusations?
Robin can have some goddam respect when he earns it and not because his STUPID actions actually turned out for the good in the long run.
I know I’m going to get some flack on this but whatever – it needs to be said and I’m probably going to hell anyway 😉
The million dollar queatin on ARS, OCMB, ESMB and WWP
There are so many secrets in the C of M (= Clan of Miscavage), so much you can’t look at, so much you have to swallow (very different from “believe”) that it doesn’t truly come as a surprise (even though it is very surprising) to hear what we hear on this blog.
I wasn’t there. I didn’t see it. And I believe to be true what I read here.
Why? I have my Data Series, my Science of Survival and my PDC (to mention my favorites). Basic stuff (not the same as “The Basics”).
In the Clan of MudCabbage you can’t ask a probing question about the Clan (that is genuinely of importance to you) without being sent to the EO or MAA. No two-way communication is possible.
On this blog there is lots of communication, real communication.
Take the Chart of Human Evaluation or the Chart of Attitudes or, how about, your own common sense and see where truth lies.
Not really addressed to the people on this blog but to the poor fellows having to read this in a cubicle called OSA.
Isn’t it a frightening thought to you that David Mayo or even Pat Broker might read this blog and feel a tingling urge to speak up? As I said, not truly surprising what is here – but freaking surprising at the same time.
Ingrid, your points are well-made, succinctly articulated, and so very insightful! Especially the one about Source. Just like service facs, most people have huge issues with, and reactive buttons on, “source”, of which issues they are completely unaware.
Replace the word ‘STUPID’ with ‘SUPPRESSIVE’
Were it not for the fact that the church is no-longer in safe hands then LRH’s wishes to keep the materials confidential should have been kept.
Robin got lucky. And that’s all that keeps the illusion that he is some kind of hero in place.
It is VERY good that you and M.R. saw the original NOTs data. At least you can spot what additives happened afterwards.
Samuel, I never wrote it up in detail before because I believe if one were well trained the “line” would be chuckled at.
Of course, because those zones are imbued with the intent to tear down – all below 2.0 stuff. No thought of using any remaining theta one might retain in the direction of disenturbulating entheta in others.
No it isn’t. I am talking about anyone who practices the “CBR” bridge.
+1 on that Janis.
and perfectly capable of delivering NOTs.
OTDT,
No, offhand I don’t know who’s idea this was.
Ooops, ‘whose’ idea it was. Who it was, and their idea, being their’s.
H,
You are welcome, ml, Laura
Marty,
What can you tell us about
1) the very last rons journal tapes that sound fake.
2) exactly what happened to the original OT levels 4-7 within the church. specifically how it came about that they were dropped and whether lrh wanted them to be dropped.
Thanks.
OTDT — I am pretty sure this came about with the revision of the Grade Chart after the release of NOTs. Class VIII had always been at the same level on the Grade Chart as OT III — they went together. Obviously the levels went with the Grades and Class VI and VII went in between Grad V and Class VIII. There hadnt been anything really defined for Class IX — but now NOTs came after OT III and so it was kind of logical to put Class IX on the left next to NOTs on the right. I believe this was done by Ray. Dan may know a bit more about it. Dont know who originally determined the prerequisites for NOTs Auditor Training — I dont recall LRH talking about it. But I know there was a problem requiring Class VIII as a prereq to NOTs training — there were not many Class VIIIs and yet everyone who was OT III now had to have an auditor for NOTs. I believe it was a matter of expediency to deliver to the public — it was VERY soon after NOTs had been written up that it was made available to the public. Of course, this was a huge shift, no more standard Dianetics, and instead of everyone doing Solo OT levels it now required auditors. Others may have more details, but I believe this explains what happened.
CD,
And thus the Reactive Mind (‘never do that again’).
This is such a fascinating subject. The period 1982-end of 1985 raises so many questions. The one you (IL2L) make about why weren’t the Cl. XIIs sent to help LRH is a real good one.
Another is: when did LRH complete solo NOTS? Even now, it’s a bit hard to ask a question like this, but if he did complete, why then such a seemingly rapid physical deterioration? I’ve heard the arguments that all the prior research etc might have taken a toll on him physically in some way – but then again, isn’t that what NOTS handles?
Some of these questions may actually give some credence to the story as told at the event announcing his death, that he knowingly discarded the body. Before I am accused of buying into a fantasy, let me state my opinion, which is that I could see how someone could make such a decision, yet the actual implementation of the decision – the mechanics of bringing on a cessation of body life would not necessarily be a simple or pleasant one.
On the other hand, I’ve read that he had strokes. Maybe that is where the explanation lies. Bodies are machines, and blood vessels are the pipes. Pipes can burst, just like bones can break, engrams or no engrams.
There were (maybe still are) confidential LRH bulletins with a 1983 date on them. I found them to be very cogent, very theta. Does anyone know if they are by LRH, and if the dates on them are correct? If so, they give a clue that he was at that time still doing research – presumably still receiving or doing solo – on NOTS.
And what about FPRD? I could be mistaken, but I recall the dates on the originals were 1984. Again, very powerful material, very cogently written. Incredible tech. Does anyone know if those were from LRH in the time frame as stated on the HCOBs?
Lots of mysteries. I hope they get cleared up someday by those who were there, accurately observed, and really know what the truth is, without bias.
So are you saying this data is in the materials they study at the Excalibur level?
I have it “on good authority” he misspelled his assigned handle – it was supposed to be Slander Tech Guy.
Hi Marty,
I have found some of the court documents on line, though it would be interesting to get sources for the other bits.
– “During that hearing Mayo swore under oath that he had written the AA5 material from memory”
– “The Judge made a specific finding that Mayo was not a credible witness, particularly in his claim that he had re-written the material from memory because he wrote it in the first place”
Both of these statements are supported by the appelate court ruling.
http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/796/1076/251872/
See Footnote 3
This is the appelate ruling, but it mentions Mayo’s claim and the finding of credibility from the initial case while not expressing an opinion on the matter.
– “He began stretching his claims to say in fact, not only did he write the materials, he discovered and developed them too”
Source? I can’t find files on the second trial.
– “[The special master was] and off the wagon alcoholic ex-judge”
Source? Without evidence this one does unfotunately come accross like standard “dead-agenting”.
– “[A]nything Mayo may have written in the name of L Ron Hubbard while in the chuch was legally written by LRH”
My understanding was that this was an assertion by the CoS legal team and was never ruled on by judge or jury as the case was tossed.
Additionally, this is an argument that Mayo has no legal ownership of the material, not that he didn’t write it. Anything I create in the couse of my work is owned by my employer but that doesn’t mean I didn’t create it.
Still, a newspaper article is an interpretation of events. This could be disputed by court docs.
– “[There] was irrefutable evidence that was placed before him that L Ron Hubbard discovered and effectively wrote every NOTs HCOB with Mayo’s assistance as a transcriptionist/compiler.”
There are other statements indicating that the CoS refused to release any documents pertaining to the authorship
Again, could be refuted by court docs.
– “Each proposed HCOB was accompanied by tape transcripts highlighted and numbered in the margins to demonstrate where each of LRH’s spoken sentences was lifted in order to compile each line of each HCOB. The package included the original audio tapes of LRH speaking the words that would become the HCOBs.”
I presume this is the stuff that is effectively under lock-and-key and cannot be produced. Is that correct?
TL:DR version — court documents back up some of what is said but if you have any documents on the second court case — even case numbers, court dates, etc — it would be helpful. Additionally, statements about Judges definitely need documentation to be taken seriously.
Regards
I second this sentiment.
He may have had some faults as we all do. But the man had guts. I salute him for that. He helped to forward the tech, he audited LRH and he was the Senior C/S. Then he was treated like a punk.
Mayo did a lot of courageous things and he fought back when he needed to. He did it as a total pioneer. He should have had some ethics protection.
I don’t know of many who could have done what he did, especially at that time.
There were a number of reasons I did not go Indie in 1982, and one of them was David Mayo. My problem with Mayo is that he re-wr0te the TRs bulletins, ruining the TRs, which are the cornerstone of auditing. I was on Level A of the BC, and it was a huge churn for all of us trying to get through them.
So when Mayo started the AAC, I said FU. I had no sympathy for whatever trials and tribulations he went through. I certainly did not trust his “tech” since his tech almost derailed me. My only exposure to him was the TRs fiasco and a Senior C/S briefing he gave before he was removed from post.
I don’t consider Mayo a pioneer in the Indie world – in fact, considering that he lied, squirreled, and then sold out, I consider that he is the poster-child for why LRH is right about squirrels.
Thanks for clearing this up, Marty. This post fleshes him out more for me, a more realistic view of the man. I still consider him a snake, but I am grateful he helped out LRH.
When I did OT IV, it was, to me, a modified extension of OT III, which I FLATTENED. So, while it was interesting, there was nothing to audit. In fact, I was disappointed, since I did not false-attest OT III, and here they were asking for more. I frankly had no reach, and have no reach, for NOTS. This post makes me think that maybe there is something worthwhile there.
Ethics protection? He bought it from DM nearly twenty years ago.
Thanks for the data.
If I had two years I might be able to piece together some “argument.” The litigation went on for more than ten years. Between two terminals bent on snapping terminals with courts. See Pab 13, The Aberative Personality. If you want to find truth in a court file, you will be sorely disappointed.
What’s with the attempts to re-characterize what I say? Are we at “symbols” or “mystery”?
You are a fucking robot asshole.
If you are so “standard” why don’t you let us know what your name is?? Why don’t you stand up on your own two feet?? Or are you a coward as well as standard??
It is a lot simpler than all this. Does the tech work when applied as suggested?
Marty, thank you for answering this question too.
Depressing. Lots of people spent tens of thousands doing those “New NOTS Rundowns” after having paid similar amounts to do original NOTS.
What a scam/circus: person comes into Scientology, pays for and does a level and attests. DM then alters the level, calls the person back in, who pays for and does the altered level. This is now the “bridge”: DM keeps altering LRH’s bridge, pressures people to pay for and do the altered versions, socks away more millions, while pcs get more & more solid (if not worse).
Not the way LRH intended it to go. Thanks to you and others who are determined to get it back on track.
If he was such a flake, why did LRH trust him to be the Senior C/S and to be his personal auditor?
I am very very reasonable…… it’s an honor for me to befriend both of you! You are both two great beings with immense potential, and I am glad I have crossed my path with you.
Claudio
Tony, I don’t know. I do know LRH was a very trusting man. He trusted Otto Roos, Captain Bill, and David Miscavige, and lots and lots of others. Ron always said to give a man the responsibility and let them run with it, and he clearly outlawed inspection before the fact. There is such a thing as the “Peter Principal” which says that people are promoted above their level of competence – perhaps that is what happened here? Great auditor, great C/S, but not the man to trust with writing HCOBs, training people, or carrying the baton after LRH passed.
My gut feeling on Mayo is that he was/is a pretty cool thetan. Probably a hell of an auditor and really knew his tech. DM was a third party between LRH and Mayo and/or he messed up the comm lines between them. Mayo didn’t handle it correctly I guess. He made some mistakes. He got enturbulated and didn’t spot the correct source of his suppression.
I assume for someone being in that situation it is a very fine line you have to walk. Very easy to be taken of that line by the Church or to take yourself off that line.
I agree with you 100% – it is that simple, and the fact that the tech does work when correctly applied is the actual “importance” here.
Still, thetans like mysteries . . . at least, this one does!
I meant he should have gotten it from the group that he dedicated his life to.
Hi Marty,
Great post and discussion. I love it !
I’ve seen the first Nots completions in 1979, beings beyond our imagination, and what I saw then from 1982 on didn’t give me any willingness to do my Nots, but I always had this imagination that one day I’ll do it and was just waiting and waiting and waiting,,,It was worth it.. Iknow you speak the truth and the Lrh Nots completions will be shinning diamonds…something this planet has never seen,, I can’t await to do my nots. Thank you !
I’m still winning after your sessions, handled lots of suppression on our lines, that’s very funny – entheta that was hidden for years just explodes into our faces and we handle and get rid of it, never experienced such wins in life – . Your auditing was so simple and easy and a demonstration to me that I’m as simple as I always thought !
You’ll hear more from me soon !
have a nice day !
Roger 🙂 🙂 🙂
Thank you, Marty.
I put a lot of time, money and energy into the “game”.
In my opinion, you are providing a valuable service just with this blog.
On further reflection, though, the question of what is and what isn’t actual Source tech (from LRH) has become, for me anyway, a bit clouded. Especially where there have been revisions, purportedly to bring the tech back to compliance with LRH (as with NOTS and FPRD, to name a few).
If, for example, I were to start auditing in the Indy field, what “version” of FPRD would I know was on source? This is not an unimportant question, IMO.
It does come as a surprise that the NNRDs (New NOTS RDs) were altered. They were promoted as being MORE standard than what had come before!
I know one thing for sure: I don’t want to give or receive auditing on anything that DM has caused to be altered or squirrelled in any way.
I see your points GH.
I still say that the man MUST have had a lot going for him to rise to the top in LRH’s estimation. Out of everyone, LRH chose him. I am not saying the guy didn’t have out-points. But come on, the man dedicated his life to the group only to be treated like some kind of a DB. He deserved better than that. I didn’t even know him. I am just saying that if LRH put that much stock into him then that group should have helped him more than it did. If LRH was part of ousting him then I think that was LRH’s bad. Hell, LRH also made some bad moves as you mention (dm for example). Should we throw him under the bus too?
People move on the tone scale and the answer is communication, something we’re pretty good at. A (group) auditor doesn’t blows off a pc because of his tone. He just continues the process and gives everybody a chance to come up.
You can visit the Ron’s Orgs since 25 or more years.
According to your logic, does that mean that they are not a squirrel group ?
Oh yeah, the old Peter Principle. I think I read about that in an HCOB. I’m glad LRH used it so effectively.
Thanks Ralph.
dfb99,
I think so too. He may have gone PTS toward the end. Ya think? I read his debrief and he was sure hounded by the cult.
Thanks Mike.
‘Class V NOTs Specialist’ would have been a more accurate representation, IMHO.
H,
I agree with you. In the early days in the late 70’s-early 80’s you got what you paid for the first time. In the late 80’s, I noticed this trend which was to release a level with all sorts of qualifications. You started to get the “pre-req” as a major factor. What was really strange to me was that the ‘hype’ level increased as well. In the late 80’s you got for the first time heavy marketing promotion with promises of totally correct application of the “tech”. After everyone paid and got the service, there would be many revisions. What happened to the “crystal clear tech” in the promotions? This whole idea of old/new is really not at all “cool”. I remember a young lady who busted herself financially doing OTVII. When it was “revised” or “expanded”, she just gave up.
You’re being vague about it. Plese be so nice and tell me specifically where you’ve got the data from, would you?
Did he get a 20% IAS discount?
<>
I suspect that CBR said that Mayo wrote NOTs, to justify his own invention of Excalibur. I’ve been to a Rons Org, it was very theta and pleasant, and better auditing than I got in the Church. People seem to be winning on Excalibur, but I wonder if this is more due to the staff Act One being in, rather than the CBR tech being optimum. I personally would pick NOTs (Marty style) over Excalibur.
Call 1-800-Deep Fax for docs.
Laura Ann, and SA below, and also Hallelujah – thanks very, very much for this, it helps a LOT.
My question was not asked with the intent of looking to blame, but rather to unravel that particular piece of the puzzle that I happened to experience, and place it in context with what Marty has written here. I was only in from 1990 till 1994 before I woke up and smelt the bad odour and left. At the time, I did not even know what the heck NOTs was, and why there was such a ruckus about “Mayo squirrelled NOTS”, but it made a deep impression on me. And of course, there was not exactly a huge field in Cape Town in the early 1990s, so it was only a very small group of people who were there at the same time as me in Cape Town when this occurred.
The time-line of alterations to the “100% standard tech” that was sold to the public and reasons given for the alterations each time is the key, I believe, to unravelling the time-line of the pattern of deception. Laura Ann, your description of your experience REALLY helps illuminate that pattern of alteration/reason why/further alteration/reason why, and so on. SA, also your confirmation that Mayo was the “usual easy to blame target”. I guess when that one was exhausted, the next thing was the transcriptionists who were to blame, thus necessitating the advent of the Basics. The pattern emerging is that each time there is an alteration, someone is to blame. IMO, blame is such an unproductive activity.
Many thanks for your answer, it is greatly appreciated. It has clarified for me, and I am sure it helped more people than me understand (which is why I asked it).
Kim
Stands firmly behind Sam
Mayo does not have an org because he was paid to go into private life. I think he bought a big home with a large gate in the Dominican Republic in the 80’s.
Standard Tech Guy you are living in the past. Have you ever heard of the internet or do you think you are still using a telex? Various groups did not last long because communication was primitive 20 years ago. Have you heard of the information revolution? Do you really know how fast particles travel in today’s world? Can you really keep a secret?
Agreed Mike, and often I wonder how pissed these same pre-OT’s get when they find out the level and depth of betrayal on this point alone, once they step outside and start their own investigating. Talk about pissed off! And, many of these people are still able, DM surely is continually creating a legion of future enemies. For this I would like to thank David Miscavige, personally, for helping create the largest flux of people pushing OUT towards freedom and power over their own lives. Way to go Dave! Your stats are up buddy!
I agree OT. I wasnt passing judgment on it being right or wrong, just providing what data I had on how it happened.
Bingo!!
Cat Doody, er, Daddy, THAT is a string pull.
Not this thing of unraveling a ball of yarn all over the living room.
Ciao Marty, i nostri obiettivi sono di gran lunga superiori. Tu sei il leader di tutti noi che aspiriamo ad una Scientology vera. Mayo probabilmente sapeva che DM era un impostore pazzo ma non sapeva come reagire e comportarsi x salvare Scientology e ha sbagliato.
You have stated it well and simply. I was at the AAC when they received their “anonymous” copy. DM was as excited as the rest, why would he be if he had
written them? I also received my own copy. Wish I’ld kept it.
nancy many
Allright, this is at least something I can verify. Approaching a Ron’s Org terminal and ask them about the myth of Mayo developing or writing NOTs while I don’t know if they have anything to do with it doesn’t seem to be a very good starting point, not to speak about good manners.
I don’t know what it means; but “Hi”.
two ships passing in the night.
Hi Roger! Thanks for checking in. I was wondering what happened with you and now I know.
I’m not synthetic personality. You have my real name (don’t publish it) and my email address.
It is well known Co$ made many gag agreements with former members and critics, that include non disclosure of the agreement terms. Some names of gagged people may be: Mary Johnston, Michael Flinn, Gerry Armstrong, Vicky & Richard Aznaran, Gabe Cazares (“We can’t talk about the terms of the settlement,” Cazares said Friday. “But I make no secret about the fact Maggie and I are not unhappy about the settlement. In fact, we’re smiling.” ), Tonya Burden, Laurel Sullivan, Jim Dincalci, Roxanne Friend, David Mayo, …
Mike, based on your knowledge, being the one who dealt with him, Mayo could show up on public forums or blogs like this one and defend himself without violating some term of a Co$ gag agreement?
Next question is, how fair is to talk bad of someone who has been gagged and can’t answer?
That’s all the point I want to make. I don’t want to create conflicts. I don’t see why there should be a conflict in the first place.
Of course, in the C of $ they never turn on each other, never turn against their own public, never alter the tech, never try to overwhelm, never gobble their young (and old) like battalions of cheap zombie-movie extras, never rip faces like Freddy Kruger on acid, always tell the truth, never mislead, have openly admitted to their own long-standing operating basis of violence, never degrade anyone and to top it off, they make their long and wide super-highway across their shiny Golden Bridge to Serene Superman easily affordable to the populace of Earth, as evidenced by the long lines of anxious enrollees awaiting the opening of a coveted seat inside their action-packed, booming new Super-Orgs!
John W,
Docs? Yes, the issues themselves. Are you kidding? Docs?!
You dumbfuck, peckerheaded, wanking, twit. THE ISSUES!!!! The ones Warren McShane validated IN COURT!!!
Holy frejoles. You OSA guys are fargin’ iceholes.
google translate:
Hello Marty, our goals are much higher. You are the leader of all of us who aspire to a real Scientology. Mayo probably knew that DM was an impostor crazy but did not know how to react and behave x Scientology save and wrong.”
First, I am not attacking him. Stated a simple set of facts.
Second, even if I were attacking him, it would be eminently fair. Anyone who sells out to Miscavige sells not only his or her right to speak, but also his or her soul.
Third, yes he is muzzled just like every other person whose motivations for attacking were monetary.
Fourth, Yes of course he could show up, if he were not money motivated.
Thanks for the answer and for not calling him “liar”.
I’m not familar with CBR materials.
🙂
I am impressed CD. How many languages do you understand?
Which reminds me Jimbo, do you know how to catch a penguin?
Interesting account, and I have no axe to grind either way. I believe Marty and Mike, though I’m not sure Mayo was the the arch-SP and squirrel he was made out to be. Per my obnosis, and you can disagree, I got a very different impression watching Mayo’s videos on YouTube where I see a thoughtful, intelligent, theta guy I would have liked to have as an auditor (as long as the tech was correct!). He does make some good points about the “8th dynamic” having been given less importance and the problems this can create. I think a rougher, different kind of thetan came into ascendancy in mgmt at that time, which explains DM, and perhaps Mayo felt he had to counter-lie to survive, which is still not okay. The various affidavits available on the Freezone sites by him, his wife, etc., plus the Dominican Republic stuff are at least interesting reading. In any case, I would prefer to learn and receive tech that was not altered, and some of the stuff by Capt. Bill does seem a bit outlandish. IMO.
Three points. Nothin but net.
Thanks Marty – the square peg in the round hole makes a bit more sense now.
Telling the truth is an OT ability, when one’s perceived survival depends on thinking in certain ways, watch the verbal flow. LRH wrote KSW1 for very good reasons, it’s probably the least applied of all HCOPLs.
There are no half way measures with truth. The confusion surrounding Mayo hopefully can now be put to rest. The confusions elsewhere such as the DM Church live on simply because of lies.
Yes, an LRH inspired auditing room is indeed a truthful and merciful place.
One ship, one dory. The dory peopled by CBR’s phantasmagorical WTFs.
Profant, I AM SAYING, CBR’s ‘OT’ levels are his invention, NOT Scientology, NOT LRH. You get that. There is no generality there.
Hello. A bit here unnecessarily asserted. LRH, when David took over his auditing, was almost dead. He saved his life. Facts and truth are not the same thing. The truth was NOTS was co-created. They worked together, auditor to pc, then out of session LRH to David. Anyone who says it was all LRH or all David is mistaken. Saying “yes Sir” is protocal, nothing more. They were two beings, creating, co-creating and no one here can say exactly how much one did or the other did. They worked together. All very well for someone recently out of the COS to turn back time and say what really happened, but what really happened, even with facts as presented, no one knows. That was between LRH and David. If LRH were here, of course he would claim authorship. In no way putting him down, but Ron, except for very early days, always claimed authorship.
David, at the very least, was instrumental in creating NOTs. Without his being there and communicating NOTs would not be here today.
And if the COS hadn’t been so diligent in removing the DM from the bottom of the HCOBs some of those in the freezone wouldn’t be so up in arms on the subject. He deserved the credit given on the bottom of the HCOB’s.
If someone says that David created NOTs and LRH didn’t, that would be untrue. But it is just as untrue to say LRH created it and David didn’t, because at the time LRH couldn’t have done it without David’s understanding and knowledge.
Hasn’t anyone ever heard of teamwork?
Love, Pat
My observation is that when people in positions of power got close to LRH they went bonkers in the head. Couldn’t really handle it. Got a god complex or something. Springs start flying out of their skulls. Especially if the LRH comm line went wobbly. Bolts come loose. They start mainlining high octane Ego-Juice. They get overly creative. Kicks in all their weird shit. Then power struggles amplify it.
There is a lot of speculation on why LRH didn’t “see” Mayo or why he suddenly saw him differently. He was not in an ivory tower. He was in the trenches too with bullets going by, emotions high and all that happens in human interaction. He was in the game.I’m sure he often had to find things out by the consequences of peoples actions, particularily when it came to someone intelligent and able and he had a lot of hope for.
One area I have had a lot of improvement in is seeing who the hell is in front of me. Even with Ron’s tech It took me years sometimes, and I’d end up in some ditch, bruised and spinning.Now, I believe I have it to down to months.One of these lifetimes I”ll be able to do it instantly for everyone.
So is knowing Scientology as written and SPOKEN by LRH. Differentiation is a wonderful thing. Have you, Old School actually studied the original David Mayo compiled, LRH issues that are the NOTs issues being referred to here? Presuming you have, then, you STILL are in doubt?
Let me ask you this; have you observed that a person in session, when found to be randomly, in a carping tone, is in fact experiencing a MWH? Do you pull it and witness the above manifestations cease? OK, let’s say you do (I’m hoping anyway), well, how the f do you know that LRH actually wrote the HCOB that covers this? You don’t have the handwritten version. You weren’t in St. Hill mimeo for the first copy. You didn’t witness the typesetting. So, how do you know it’s LRH?
Answer that for yourself. The NOTs issues have the same answer.
‘randomly, in a carping tone, criticizing’
I used this translation tool.
http://translate.google.com/#
But to answer your question. Dutch, German, English and I can read basic french.
But one can make out some words on ones one derived from the latin that travelled from the french into the english language. (1066 William the Conqueror).
Sam. It needed to be said and you said it. Your hard as nails. I love it. And your not going to hell. I dont think the devil could handle you anyway. Your speak from the heart. +1
You noted: “That was between LRH and David. If LRH were here, of course he would claim authorship. In no way putting him down, but Ron, except for very early days, always claimed authorship.” Oh, but of course you are not putting LRH down, you are clearly communicating that he was good chap right up there on par with David Mayo. Thanks for the warning.
Watch out – Theo’s gonna try to recruit you for the new translations unit.
Doesn’t this devalue the statement that, “[t]he Judge made a specific finding that Mayo was not a credible witness”?
You’re sharing some pretty sharp observations, OTDT.
“Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man’s character, give him power.”
Abraham Lincoln
Bruce
Ingrid, thanks for that important observation. I am working on a follow up post that expands on that theme. It is so simple to sit back and criticize, particularly for a spectator without any interest in any result.
OTDT – Thanks for clearing up a major confusion about myself – I always thought I had curly hair, but now I know I have springs flying out of my skull and that I am missing some bolts.
Great evaluation! FN VGIs!!!!!!
I’m posting this link for your consideration only, without making any assertions of any kind.
http://freezone.najbjerg.info/dokumentation/david_mayo_sp_declare
Trey,
I did talk to Paulette (Ausley, Cohen) last year & confirmed she was auditing LRH on Dianetics and ran into a big wall in that direction & did not know what to do to handle. Not sure what program Mayo ran, after he arrived from Clearwater on a redeye flight, but can confirm he got better and fully recovered after sessions with Mayo.
Gene Denk and a Chiro from Sacramento, James Keppler were gotten to La Quinta to help LRH as he was pretty sick, but the conditions did not improve with their physical treatments.
LOL, Marty! Shades of the COS! First belly laugh I’ve had for the day.:)
Good thread.
I’m clearly communicating the truth. Only in the very early days did LRH give credit to those who offered technical processes. If I am wrong, then show me one place where LRH gave credit to anyone’s elses technical help after early 60’s.:) I am not putting him down; I am saying it as it is.
Show me one HCOB.:)
And the statement re: David and LRH being at par–that is an A=A statement. I neither said that nor implied that.
Love, Pat
Dear Pat,
I don’t know if you’ve audited for the Ol’man but there isn’t a any kind of “co-create” going on.
Even dear Mary Sue who originally audited Ron on much of the whole track covered in ‘History of Man’ wasn’t “co-creating” any of the techniques run.
They had already been established prior to session, adhered to in session and reviewed by Ron afterwards to determine their effectiveness.
To suggest otherwise is to accuse Mayo of “C/Sing in the chair” and Ron allowing it which he would have never have done.
I suggest you review the HCOPL ‘Keeping Scientology Working’ and this time actually read it.
Well I do translate (church of) Scientology critical articles from English to Dutch and from dutch to English on WWP, I am a pretty slow typist though.
But the Scientology things I prefere to read in English as sometimes a bit of meaning is lost in the translation.
So I am not checking out any of the 3 scientologybooks in dutch out of the local library here in my (university) city 😉
Yee Doggy! Thank you Marty.
Context, responsibility and personal integrity, not that I personally can do anything but banter these words around. 🙂
Bruce Pratt
CBR´s Excal is a squirrel overt “product”.
TOTAL OUT TECH and a solution to his own fucked up case.
Look, I can’t agree more with what you said about the tone scale and comm; however, there are two other factors in play here.
1. The guy does not consider this blog to be anything useful let alone a (group) session. Quote: “at some point you need to do something about this crap beyond blogging.” He is not here with the intention to be helped. He is not in session.
2. Even if he were to be here to be in session in this group auditing. The auditor has the right to decline him as a pc. I think that we are exercising that right.
Anyway, either case, the show will go on.
OTDT,
I’ve made a similar observation myself.
I used to call it the “coiled spring” phenomenon.
NIBs, Otto Roos, Bill Robertson and David Mayo are perfect examples of this phenomenon.
They worked well while directly under the Ol’man because he knew how to handle people and grant them beingness.
As soon as they moved into some other zone or area not directly under Ron’s control they unsprung.
Mike,
I know you still love me.
I have seen peoples self confidence seen build up and people come out of confusion. But I see that is is not a nice place to be for a Scientologist.
I still see common ground but that’s just me
Jannie, it all makes sense now!
Marty,
Umm…no. How do you catch a penguin?
And your point is?
Thanks for this post Joe.
Thanks Dan ~~ Joe Howard for your keen analysis as well.
I lived, breathed, interned, studied, spent huge amounts of time with and around David Mayo year in and year out.
He is and always has been an Opinion Leader of magnitude for me.
He has been maligned in the way Marty Rathbun and Mike Rinder are continuously maligned.
David Mayo, more than anything wanted auditors to be trained.
David Mayo never ever let a single case get bogged down in those years.
There were no refunds or people leaving the Church in those years.
The technology gave the results expected and Mayo made damn sure those leaving the Apollo or FSO were 1000% satisfied.
He by-passed, took over the folder and personally CSed it to dazzling result
if the case wasn’t being handled by lower CSes.
We, the Class XIIs watched this over and over and over again.
He was not chosen by LRH to Be Senior CS on the Apollo, Senior CS of the FSO, Senior CS of the Flag Land Base and Senior CS INT because LRH was stupid and shortsighted.
Unlike DM who took power illegally, David Mayo was chosen by LRH for the most senior Tech terminal post for about a decade.
David Mayo saved LRH’s life and added YEARS to it.
By many corroborrated accounts LRH would not have made it before David arrived in 1978.
Many criticize Mayo who buy every kind of 3rd party under the sun.
Mayo Nots or Mayonaisse could probably roll back to Miscavige who has never run an HGC, debugged cases or made anything but robots for auditors.
David put in his 100 hour weeks, served the Commodore, kept the Apollo afloat with the small handful of auditors which were virtually the only source of Income for the ship in those days. This permitted LRH to continue his research and David was the key person enabling the Apollo HGC to flourish and prosper.
I can only image the how the WRONG ITEM of forcing him to run around a pole for 12 hours a day in HEMET sun for months (he lost his teeth) impacted him.
Setting him with flagrant and unconscionable lies as a DRUG RUNNER with Interpol is a classic DM malicious THUGGERY revenge action.
I have David Mayo’s telephone number and address. I just haven’t been able to call him. I am ashamed of myself because I did an “RTC Mission”
under Gary Klinger with Jimmy Meisler to harm ACC. Why did I do that ?
How could I have enabled RTC against the one good man that I saw year in and year out contributed more to the motion than most ?
Because I was drinking the Koolaid and I was operating under the held down 7 of “greatest good.” I am still today hung up in my own overt here.
David Mayo was ahead of his time when he stated (paraphrased)
“No one Entity should have the POWER to control or THREATEN one’s Spiritual future and “Eternity”.
Absolute POWER corrupts ABSOLUTELY.
That may be true too. I still think that after a person dedicates a large portion of their life to support a cause at very little exchange, even if they go bat shit crazy, that they deserve some support/help. (not running around a tree for hours on end in the hot sun as some punishment cloaked as help) Using this same logic of someone going nuts when close to power, the bots could argue that Marty is doing the same thing. I didn’t throw Marty under the bus and I won’t throw Mayo under it either. Granted he could have said and done some not ok things. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on his character and intentions.
I am an kind of EX freezoner. I still like the auditing stuff and a lot of the tech but not the rest of the ball of wax and the brainwashing I find that is still rampant in the freezone.
I when I had my own exit for the same reasons I am leaving the freezone behind will not bow down to peer pressure or abuse verbal and otherwise. I stood my ground and say what I observed in the church after I wrote the KR up I got booted. I spent untold hours reading on the web once I got another computer after a few years of having none. This was one of the stories I had no idea about and some confusion on but lately the confusion is blowing.
I find myself getting sick with colds far less often since I basically parted ways from the Yahoo freezone lists and today I cut a supposed great class 12 off my facebook due to his wife saying she is going to publish folder data as blackmail. I had to move away from that group to start to clear my head and reading a lot and watching about brainwashing helped a great deal with my research into the Venus Project. I woke up. Now because I did I am getting the old peer pressure and blame me because I don’t make sense to them but for others I make perfect sense.
Thanks for this post and keep them coming because I got more cobwebs to clear out of my head. I will do my auditing one day but only with a truely trusted auditor who has proved themselves to care for people and not for money. Also that they can be trusted. I got betrayed by one auditor in the church and Me not going to repeat that again.
“Have you, Old School actually studied the original David Mayo compiled”
Not relevant to my point. My point was that it is not possible from the available data to know how much or little D. Mayo helped develop the NOTs tech as we aren’t privy to all their dialog. They could have discussed much before LRH turned on the recorder. We just don’t know. Hence the omitted.
Yet he was well enough to tape-dictate the newly discovered NOTS Tech. Not any indicators of someone “almost dead”.
Speculative. Nothing to do with Facts or Truth.
Based on the Data so far posted on this blog, it appears Mayo “assisted” LRH.
Again, speculative. One could also say that about any auditing session. Auditing LRH does not necessarily equate with developing anything.
So far from the Data on this blog it appears Mayo took instructions from LRH.
Instrumental? Another Assumption.
And another one …
That’s a new one.
Again, assisting LRH does not amount to any development of the Tech. And Mayo never claimed otherwise either.
MW,
It is the usual procedure to have a cassette tape running when LRH speaks and Messengers on Duty had this as one of their jobs, along with logging what went on during the day. These logs and tapes are preserved. Janis and other MonDs can confirm.
I don’t think so. Some judges are good at spotting outpoints. Especially when a persons testimony ends up conflicting with itself under cross.
Damn! There go my barbeque party plans!
♥
Mike,
Her “point” seems to be that the Ol’man never gave “credit” to others who allegedly contributed to Scientology which is actually a big fat lie bolstered by the fact that there were hundreds of HCOBs prior to the issuance of BTBs that were written by *others*.
The reason why these issues do not exist today is actually covered in the HCOB ‘Tech Correction Round Up’ which like KSW is an issue that Pat here obviously hasn’t read.
Or if she has would rather ignore in order to accuse the Ol’man of “plagiarism” as it seems to be the tendency of many actual *squirrels* in the field who want to *obscure* the origins of Scientology for their own personal profit or power.
They are the other side of the same coin to the Government Approved and Tax Exempt *Squirrel Group* who assigns things never written by the Ol’man to his authorship like for instance the majority of the ‘Auditors Admin Series’ to the same effect which is to *obscure* actual source for personal profit and power.
+1 Janis. The link for this article by the gang of 5 is:
http://www.scientology-cult.com/secret-history-of-david-miscavige.html
Not all that is in the bank is bad
The collective unconscious wich is imbedded in humanity tends to hold men to some basic guidelines.
http://www.kheper.net/topics/Jung/collective_unconscious.html
As a free Thetan though Jim you can shoot up the joint and never have a moment’s regret.
The Mayo bust was after the last paragraph of this article which states:
“During this time period Senior Messengers who had been with LRH for years dating back to the ship were Claire and David Rossouw, Janis Gillham-Grady, Gale and Dede Voegeding, Lois Jory-Reisdorf, Clarisse Barnett and Marc Yager. All had been targeted by Dave and removed from post and from being on LRH’s lines — several climbed back up while others continued to be mistreated but none were ever able to communicate directly with LRH again with all communications going through Dave to LRH, Annie and Pat.”
Invalidation is invalidating.
Even the founder couldn’t handle absolute power
Wise viewpoint
I know, It’s fun to post a single word and see where it leads.
envie
I always expect that to be the case with the curly-haired ones.
🙂
Finally! Duh!
Bryon,
CBR’s claim that Mayo “developed” NOTs was probably based on his idea that the Church at this point had been totally infiltrated by the evil Marcabs or something and that he by channeling the Ol’man was able to salvage the OT levels.
He was very much like David Miscavige who himself claims he is channeling the Ol’man by saying it is “LRH’s intention” etc every time some squirrel program is instituted like the Golden Age of OT, Management, Tech etc or Ideal Orgs.
As if his words come directly from the Ol’man.
In both cases they haven’t actually assumed the role of source but as source’s authorized agent.
This is covered very well in the article ‘An Essay on Management’.
In either case they are merely *vias* to source.
Since *source* or the *source of Scientology* is contained in thousands of written HCOBs and recorded lectures that need no interlocutor or interpreter which is all Robertson and Miscavige are.
I think if people realized this.
Their power would diminish considerably.
Because in my opinion they are both somewhat parasitical.
In reading some of the comments about why LRH would allow such and such an individual to…
You can only man your org board with the talent and ability of those individuals available. You can’t populate an org board with imaginary beings with perfect abilities. You work with what you’ve got.
The one thing about human beings is we’re all a bit nuts. And the more dynamic an individual, the more dramatic his nuttiness seems. So, what are you going to do, put Mr. Milksop in as Director of International Affairs because he’s not as obviously nutty while he accomplishes nothing? Or are you going to put Miss Ballstothewalls in the job because, despite her tendency to pee in the trashcan and howl at midnight, she gets products out and stats up?
You’ve got to consider that effective people are often not agreeable. People who just go around agreeing, agreeing, agreeing are operating at effect. Effective people are often pretty friggin disagreeable. They don’t behave. They don’t always follow the rules.
People with grand imaginations are just a bit of an ARC break for the rest of humanity. They’re wild. But, they often drive the society forward.
So, this argument: if LRH had the data series and was so observant and knew so much about human behavior and reaction, why did he put so and so in a position of power, just seems silly to me.
My criterion for a quarterback would be whether he could get touchdowns scored, not whether he enjoyed farting at dinner parties.
You man your org board with available talent. That’s the practicality of it.
Michael
I will Confrim Glenn Myself I was never told by Mayo that he claimed Nots discovery .Apart from this I found him as a CS and Auditor fine .I credit him for working with the old Man under his intructio at least
The list is long.
Mike,
I have some minor details on the scene from my own research on the scene.
First of all the training prerecs for NOTs auditors was Cl IV NED (this was prior to NED being switched according to ‘New Grade Chart’ which came out in ’81) according to an LRHED issued at the time.
At which time it became Cl V Grad.
At that time a NOTs auditor was known as an ‘Advanced Course Specialist’. Like Class IVs and VIs who were allowed to audit VIII Rundowns like the *Class VIII* DRD, OT IV RD and various Class VIII remedies covered in the Class VIII auditors Case Book also issued as an HCOB known as Class VIII Auditor Actions they had no specific class above their training level.
They were just OKed by Qual to do VIII RDs after doing a course in Tech or Qual on the RD.
Also at that time NOTs wasn’t given a specific designation on the Grade Chart.
It was just known at first as “NOTs” then when solo NOTs was issued in the early 80’s as “Audited NOTs and Solo NOTs”.
The original OT Levels still had their original designations per RJ 30 and a NOTs auditor was still known as an “Advance Course Specialist” until I’d say about the mid ’80’s when the original OT Levels were mysteriously dropped out of the line up and became *New* OT V, VI and VII insinuating that the original OT Levels were now “old”.
In my opinion one of the biggest *Tech Degrades* ever to occur in Scientology (even bigger than what were once called “Quickie Grades” because at least in those cases the PC got the major action of the Grade even though in most cases running it didn’t achieve the full Grade EP) occurred virtually unnoticed except by a few.
Not only that but Class V Grads ACS’s became known as “Class IXs” since they could audit “New V” which was a level that Class VIIIs who were not SO qualed could not audit.
Also Originally Class IX according to the HCOB ‘Fast Courses’ was known as an Hubbard Advance Technical Specialist or HATS which covered lower level and upper level actions that were released since the original Class VIII course which included the Original OT VII EP the audited section of original OT VII.
As well as the full C/S Series.
Anyway that is how it went according to my own research of the subject.
“Class IX” was a false level arbitrarily assigned to what was originally known as ACS replacing the actual level known as Class IX HATS which covered all levels above III and any lower level actions as covered in the C/S series.
Kim,
It is my pleasure to be of help. ml, Laura
I am harsh on him, but at this point it was almost 30 years ago(!), and the water is not only under the bridge, it has evaporated!
It is important to unravel what occurred back then, because it is a collective 3D engram. The last years of LRH were a period of uncertainty. I wrote this before, but I was sure LRH was already dead and that someone was covering it up. When the announcement was made, it was the involvement of Dr. Denk that made me believe that it was true – AND NOTHING ELSE. Rachel announced herself here recently, of course. This, to me, is another tribute to the man. His integrity at the time of LRH’s passing surpassed anyone else’s in my view. From a public-eye view, the whole shenanigans of upper-level management was a storm in the stratosphere with little-‘ol me looking at the lightening. At least I knew one thing to be true, and that was that LRH was truly dead, and we were entering some interesting waters.
But, in the event, I forgive all involved, because the tech has proven to be extremely resilient even if some of the players were not.
Years ago I noticed the prereqs for Level IX on The Grade Chart, and commented on it to the local Class VIII. She smiled and said something to the effect of
“Well, you get Class 4 Class IX’s and you get Class 8 Class IX’s.”
It was one of those comm cycles that leave you in no doubt that there’s two levels of skill behind the cert. Class IX lets you audit NOTs, while Class VIII is and always will be Class VIII. She didn’t feel invalidated at all, just completely understood that Class VIII can stand by itself as something very special, in much the same way that Clear can stand apart as something special too.
Alan
I read that quote the other day. Very profound… and true, imho.
Lincoln had it going on!
Ah… the good old days. 😉
The bottom line is the bottom line.
or, in the words of the immortal Dennis Rodman (paraphrased) : a lot of people want to be the man, but not everybody can be the man, the only way to be the man is the be the man.
My guess is that you didn’t need to read how to drink water in an HCOB. I also guess that you didn’t learn how to read or write from an HCOB, or add two and two. Or how to search for something on Google. Or how to drive your car. (Although how to shine your car is in HCOPLs – don’t use Simonize!) Not all tech is in HCOBs.
@Michael – Very well thought and said!
Michael A. Hobson
From what I know, LRH was very close to death the day Mayo arrived. He could have just as easily died that day through no fault of anyone. I understand it was a coin flip. That close.
Image the consequences if LRH had died and not researched NOTs with Mayo. All of us OTs would be auditing each other on the then “standard tech” for OTs with somatics: more garden variety Dianetics. I guess some of us could have suffered some dire consequences over the next 30-40 years being left with just R3R in the toolbox. More Dianetics and a lot of it since we could co-audit it back then even as OTs.
I had just begun auditing a ’78 era full OT7 on a Dianetic program in the field (legal co-audit) when the NOTs HCOB came out and stopped us. So I know this was the route for OTs with somatics after original OT7. And everyone is gonna get a somatic or two when aging. No preventing that.
I’m glad NOTs got worked out no matter who did what before LRH left us for good apparently.
We missed a bullet, all of us.
Think about it.
Thank you for the clarification. So Not’s is from LRH pure, or at least transcribed with less possible alter is.
Now, even with the idea that LRH didn’t write the entirety of Not’s, I was still confident.
You see, from the COS, independant, ron’s org, or anywhere else, we are all scientologists, we all use the comm cycle in auditing, the ARC triangle, we all go earlier on NED when the TA goes up (or earlier begining)! There are in fact a huge number of scientologists on this world, many of them with BPC, plus an infinite number of PCs to come in session. Miscavige, Mayo and even Marty and all of us, bloggers, are actors of the history of scientology. I’m looking forward to more truth, accurate truth, and let’s have and give wins in auditing. This is the only reason the subject ever existed.
kim, there’s a date co-incidence with that event – remember the Time article and the Church response with the USA Today ads? That campaign was the first really big thing that had a “Donate to the IAS!” theme.
Changing NOTS together with the “mayonaise” undercurrent, was the first really big major change on The Bridge post-LRH as I recall.
So we have both of Davey’s trademark actions – altering tech under the guise of something else, and regging the public for huge donations with no exchange. Both things kicked up a gear at about the same time.
Hmmmmmm. Simple logic tells me the odds are very good Davey had all his big ducks in a row by then and felt secure enough take it to the next level.
Alan
“… as LRH got better, he started dictating what they were discovering and doing in his sessions …”
I found this part of your statement particularly telling. By the time LRH made the tapes which are offered as ‘evidence of his authorship of NOTS’ he had already progressed on his auditing with David Mayo. Now, personally the idea that LRH did not have mutual discussions with David concerning the course of auditing I find to be ludicrous.
LRH also had a clear pattern throughout his life of appropriating the ideas of others and subsequently claiming the credit for them himself. Much of scientology tech originated in this manner; e.g. Study tech, Power Processes, PTS Handlings, etc..
So truly what your testimony implies is that LRH had both the time and opportunity necessary appropriate any ideas which David Mayo may have contributed to the development of the NOTS tech as his own. It certainly fits within Hubbard’s lifetime modus operandi of intentionally stealing credit rightly due to others and lying about it.
Such a view also fully accords with the comments that David, a man of great personal integrity, has always maintained concerning his own modest contributions. One more point of fact, David is the ONLY living person who could more fully elucidate the matter, as no one else was actually a party to Hubbard’s auditing at that time, ergo their testimony is only ‘hearsay’.
ST Guy,
You said ” More importantly, perhaps someone can explain why we should believe Marty over Mayo when Marty has a history of beating his subordinates and lying under oath.”
The answer to your question is, RESULTS!
Have a great day! ml, Laura
Oh geez, maybe *that* is my problem, for I’ve been curly-headed since I was a wee babe. 😦
Michael A. Hobson
You saw a hole in the ice. Then, you place peas around the hole. When the penguin bends over to take a pea, you kick him in the ice hole.
Mike has it right with his statement that there weren’t a ton of Class VIIIs being made. As always, there are a shortage of auditors. When the specific auditing skills needed to deliver NOTs were reviewed it was deemed, possibly by Mayo, possibly by Ray, though I think it was earlier, that a Class V Grad auditor could deliver NOTs well. And they can. NOTs is not a complicated action to audit. A Class V Grad can audit anything that a Class VI can audit, except the Class VI is doing it with a more complete philosophical grasp of what he is doing, a Class VIII even moreso. The materials on Class VIII that might pertain to NOTs are not essential to NOTs delivery. I think that was the rationale for not having Class VIII be a prerequisite for Class IX. At one time they were called Advanced Course Specialists without a class designation, if I remember correctly.
Keep posting, you are creating a live example of what I am warning people about in this post.
Janis, I wish you would visit and chip in more often if you can find the time. I am pretty sure you are gonna have something to say about the next post coming up.
Co-auditing to OT was mentioned by LRH in RJ 67.
Easy for a spectator to say.
Lo,
With tears of JOY, I’m soooooo Happy for YOU! ml, Laura
You are awesome Karen!!
I really admire you’re loyalty and integrity.
Marty: “alcoholic ex-judge sitting as special master”
How do you know the ex-judge was an alcoholic? Even if he was, why does it matter? There is also a lot of people who are not alcoholic and who dislike the Church of Scientology as well (and for good reasons.) You yourself dislike the Church of Scientology.
When I look back at my DIRECT contact points with D. Mayo I’m just relaying what jarred in my mind: 1) He came on post as Sr C/S Int, sent out a pamphlet about his nomination with a photo and I saw a weak being 2) He gave a speech/demonstration at AOSHEU&AF in 1980 or 81 about instant reads where the quality of the video was so poor you could not see the instant reads. Julie Gillespie hung on his every word uttered and my instant thought was that they were having an out-2D. 3) That very first rendition of the HRD was so muddled every auditor applied it differently. That is not standard Tech 4) My very first day at INT in October 1982 Mayo, who had just been ousted, was in the food line and the look he gave me was the most heart wrenching look I have EVER received by anyone this lifetime.
Conclusion: He may have been a good auditor and C/S but was working above his comfort zone. That ‘Peter Principle’ seems to apply. Otherwise he was simply the fall guy in 1982
Sorry to say but me & mine felt the same way about this thread: Blah, blah, blah.
Because I saw him. He was being paid more than 200 dollars an hour (with church parishioner donations) making an ass of himself under the guise of Federal judgeship. That is why it matters. If you think that is ok, then have a gas when the empire falls.
Gee Sam,
I hope you’re referring to Robin Scott and not me.
Really I thought what they did at the time was somewhat underhanded and covert like an espionage operation.
The type of actions that were directed against AOLA and other PAC orgs in the early to mid 80’s by the lovable AAC.
Of course RTC was able to use these actions directed by others to deflect attention from their own dismal record of “protecting” the technology by getting involved in legal disputes that only caused more leaks to spring up from other sources like Wollershiem, Fishman and Lermer.
Instead of trying to plug the leaks some of them were actually dynamiting the dam!
Not to mention our dear friends in the Intelligence Community who were releasing an altered version of the tech through PsiTech with the help of Ingo and company.
Personally I think these actions did more to obfuscate and obscure thus to a degree securing the “Advanced Technology” than if it had of been released by Scott and his suppressive “cohorts”.
Who, according to what Ron writes in the HCOPLs ‘Security of Data’ and ‘Enrollment in Suppressive Groups’ would have been committing a suppressive act of magnitude if they had of broadly issued the Ad Course Materials without the noise and static of alterations.
So once again the suppressives fail to complete a cycle of action by intentionally caving people in by overwhelming them with the actual data.
That doesn’t mean that they are any less suppressive.
All it basically means is that Marty and others have found a silver lining in all of this by writing that despite his best efforts at evil Robin Scott actually did a laudable thing by freeing the AC materials from the clutches of the corporate Church of Scientology whether he intended to do it or not.
then why bother returning?
Forget about Mayo! Hell why didn’t he see Pat? or DM? or, well you get the idea. Sorry but it just seems something went wrong. Real wrond. I was gonna say something on the Gene Denk thread but didn’t want to rain on anyone’s parade but I’ll say it now: Seems like the elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about is why did LRH need a full time live in doctor? And now we’re onto a NOTs thread. Good God. I consider LRH my best friend but it’s time to acknowledge the man was flawed and not just in his personal life. ANd that’s OK with me as he still did more for self improvement than anyone else this century but I don’t think he did a lot of what he did say he did either. OK I’ll shut up now.
OTDT, you are so right on about checking the soles of your shoes for clay demo labels! That was also done at AOLA in 1985. At AOLA we had to plug in our packs with a faulty alarm system going off. All done for control.
Banned?
“Omitted” means “left out”, the tapes are not “left out” they are “not present”.
Marty and Mike didn’t leave anything out, they described what they heard. If they did have the tapes and could present them as dox, that itself would be a gigantic outpoint in itself – where the blazes would they get them from? Others have posted that the tapes are under lock and key, that is consistent with other known facts. So when the tapes see the light of day, then we can compare what’s on them with what is stated here today.
This is no different from any other eye witness account; it is unreasonable to expect an eye-witness to have evidence of what they report to have witnessed (that’s why we have cops – they find the evidence to back up the witness).
Yes, Data Series is a wonderful thing. “Added inapplicable datum” is an illogic too.
The comment Wise Viewpoint was meant for Patricia.
P, I will tell you a little about FPRD. In early 1984 I was the Director in Cine. We were shooting the first of the PSMPS (Public Scientology Motion Picture Series) films entitled “What Happened to These Civilizations?” We were doing shots on video and sending them to LRH for review and critiques. As you know, my personal bent has always been towards comedy, and the shots we were sending up were not well received. After a month of this, LRH had had enough and shut Cine down entirely. We all went onto retraining of Cine materials. In addition, LRH selected out a few of us, including myself, Nick Cancilla and Jon Horwich, for a new rundown aimed at getting to the heart of our inability to produce an acceptable product. Nick was a sound man in Cine and Jon was on the post of LRH Audio Visual In-Charge (not working in Cine). At any rate, we found ourselves in session being sec checked and then being asked for the evil purposes underlying the overt chain. 1984 was the time period and even though LRH was not at the base but at Creston, Ray Mithoff and RTRC ran the pilot, reported the results and compiled the HCOBs which LRH approved.
For sure, LRH could have had good auditors had a couple of people who shall remain nameless but whose initials are David Miscavige and Pat Broeker wanted LRH off the lines and out of the picture for reasons of their own. Ray was around, Jeff Walker was around, John Eastment was around, the latter two trained by LRH on the Apollo. He could have had an auditor.
Sorry, Marty. I thought another comment I posted didn’t make it so concluded I had been banned. I respect your whistle blowing but I guess the never end stories of who was responsible for what and who was once “good” and then went “bad” has gotten old (for me anyway). It just seems so many people of good will, who spent years contributing, went off the deep end that I just scratch my head and wonder WTF?
Springs flew out early.
Tony, let me second that. Karen lived it. She knows. She has a lot of class. And you stuck to your guns too. Naturally Mayo was exceedingly dedicated and trusted and hard working. As were Marty and Mike and Karen and……..the list goes on.
Martys book is an opportunity to propel the independent movement forward. I hope who did what to who, in 1982, does not take center stage. That chronology, though interesting and of some value, does not get us where we need to go.
By focusing on the future, not the past, the current miseries and managment will not be fed so that they persist . Perhaps they should even be ignored, or treated seperately. Maybee the book should be Part1, the past, or how we got here, and part 2, the future, where its going. I want the dream to live on, and I think Marty is positioned and gifted enough to propel it forward.
“This is this.”
Who and What movie?
Maybe David Mayo was just very very good at the post he was good at, and sucked at most other posts. Maybe he moved off his comfort zone (Auditor and C/S) and all sorts of interesting things then happened.
I’m like that – I’m very good at my job. If you need someone to cut through all the BS, figure out a workable solution and get it deployed over dead bodies, then I’m your man. In an emergency situation that is not covered by explicit policy, then I’m your man too.
But do not ever make me an exec in charge of anything and certainly not anything connected to “tactical”, “strategic” and “personnel” – I’m just not very good at those posts. (Been there, done that)
Maybe that happened to David Mayo – stepped off post and walked right into his own mud pool, then tried unusual solutions to fix it which got way out of hand real quick.
Just a thought.
Thanks RJ. A far more comprehensive study and wealth of information than my off-the-top-of-my-head comment.
He mumbled. I didn’t like the mumbling. Top tech guy shouldn’t mumble.
Agreed Sam and RJ.
I totally respect Robin Scott for putting NOTs in the public domain.
However I do not agree with his favoring & championing Cannabis & efforts to cultivate the best of that. Drugs have been discovered by LRH to prevent one from going up the Bridge!
Why would one pay for over 20 intensives to handle effects of drugs? Do sweat outs and purif and handle again in OT IV?
There also is some kind of a Gerry Armstrongesque grudge against Marty & Mike which seems to persist on Robin’s part.
Tony, as far as I’m concerned people can do some pretty lame things, make huge mistakes, cause problems, make wrong choices – but it’s what they do in present time that really counts.
If a guy has your back and is pushing things forward today you don’t really worry about yesterday.
But a guy who makes mistakes and then disappears and drops his hat, well, the whole things sort of gets stuck on the time track. Everytime the guys name comes up thats where he is in peoples minds. Hopefully he was able to purchase peace of mind and happiness with his $2,000,000.
And bless you for that Jim Logan.
Karen,
You have nothing to be ashamed about. I think that I speak for nearly everyone here that has been duped by Corporate Scientology when I say that.
The simplest remedy that I can think of for you to apply is that old Hawaiian one mentioned on this blog some time back. I’ve tried it several times since reading it and it works like magic.
Get in comm with him and say “I’m sorry. I love you” to EP.
L, Scott
I don’t think Mayo rewrote any TRs bulletins. RTRC under Phoebe Mauerer would have had that hat. LRH developed the STCC TR drills in March 1980 and wanted that to replace the Div 6 TRs Course. LRH also developed the TRS Clay Table Processes in Fall 1979. None of that was Mayo’s work. Which bulletins are you referring to?
I thought that only worked with Polar Bears.
Unfortunately, I was told that Merrill passed away some years ago. She audited me on expanded grades and was my Qual for a couple of years and is a good friend.
Thank you Karen,
The thing that indicates the most to me in all of this is the fantastic smear job originally done on Mayo to discredit him in the eyes of all Scientologists: if it took that much smear to discredit him, he must have been really amazing and hard to tear down. It took me a long time after waking up to be able to read again that five page or more attack and see how slimy and sick it really was. After that I started regaining respect for him.
I don’t think we can have it both ways. Either David Mayo was a good guy and the smear campaign was done by an evil person (DM) or DM was the good guy and David Mayo was really the bad one. I vote for D Miscavige as the bad guy on this.
+1 MOQ!
Fall guy. Read the Gang of Five story. LRH was onto DM and was about to order him to sec checking from, guess who, David Mayo.
LRH says that people are the most able in the area they have the least amount of overts in.
I think you should just pick up the phone and call him.
Auditors, C/Ses and friends all share something in common – that beingness never really goes away.
Your’s is an absolutely lovely post Karen and I thank you for having made it. I do however want to encourage you to do one thing, if not for me then for yourself.
CALL DAVID NOW!!!
Never mind that you may feel ‘ashamed’. He is an absolutely lovely human being and I’m sure he would much rather hear from you again than let the opportunity pass until possibly another lifetime. After all, none of us are getting any younger. 😉
Carpe Diem.
Mark A. Baker
p.s. It was lovely to meet you on the occasion of the recent celebration in Los Angeles.
Thanks Karen,
For some facts about the scene I didn’t know.
Actually he was my favorite characters in the ‘Secret of Flag Results’ 🙂
I personally never knew the man myself and pretty much accepted what was written in the SOED ‘The Story of a Squirrel’ and the usual natter that accompanied his departure.
Yes I also knew about the torture he suffered at the hands of the coup when I first heard of him being forced to run around a tree in the hot desert and how the RP Tech was perverted to orchestrate his eventual blow.
I was outraged!
The fact is that Mayo made mistakes like all of us have but he did dramatize his torment to a degree when he started the Church of the New Civilization and eventually the AAC and did use the same methods of his tormentors.
Just as the GO used these same methods of espionage that had been used against them and the Church by the Government which in my opinion seems to obscure the matter.
That these people were basically good people who were dramatizing their motivators.
Like Mayo.
Personally I always thought that if Mayo was handled properly after he screwed up and he did screw up very badly according to the HCOBs ‘Mixing Major Rundowns and Repair’ and ‘Ethics and the C/S’ he could have been salvaged.
Just as the GO might have been if a full Board of Investigation had been conducted on what happened.
But this didn’t seem to be in the interest of the coup who took over.
Instead in my opinion they wanted to make an example of Mayo and the GO and the Mission network purely as a show of force and to prove that they indeed had “taken over”.
As the old saying going:
“The new broom sweeps clean.”
Not only did they get rid of Mayo but they also dethroned Mary Sue and busted Diana and then started a purge of all founding Scientologists in executive positions.
Again to prove that they were the new boss.
Mayo was just another victim of this purge as many of those who purged them in later years became.
Anyway that’s all I wanted to say about all this and again thanks for the data Karen which gave me a new view on things.
Lv
Robin
Like your comments Karen.
Marty,
I didn’t get that you were attacking him. But now that you say you think it would be fair to since he ” sold out”, do you feel the same way about Debbie Cook? I seem to recall you defending her. Maybe I’ve got that wrong.
“I didn’t call him a “liar.” I said he lied through his teeth and he did.”
Curiously this is something for which you yourself are especially noted, having made a lengthy career of just such activity while an executive in the church. Admittedly, this gives you some expertise in the area. Unfortunately, it also serves to undermine your own personal credibility.
It’s easy to believe a known liar when he admits to having been one. It is not so easy to accept his word when he accuses another of being one also.
This conundrum becomes all the more difficult when the man who accuses the other of lying was a party to treacherously dealing aimed at the other in the past, and that the target of his accusation is a man who is himself widely known and highly regarded for his innate decency, honor, and integrity.
You got a point there. FUNNY!
Obviously you seemed to have missed something here Xfor Life.
While claiming that Ron is your “best friend” you seem to be doing your best to cast aspersions by asking stupid questions.
First of Ron never personally knew Miscavige as anything other than a cinetech at OTR and Pat while the head of the HU did everything that he requested of him.
Why would he suspect these terminals of collusion in a conspiracy?
Also why would he waste the time in suspecting them?
When he had more important things to do.
Like wrap up the OT Levels and finish his writing!
Also obviously you might have missed a word or something when you listened to RJ 67.
Research into OT III almost killed his physical body and now he was researching what he called “the second wall of fire”.
Don’t you think a wise man who knew how physically dangerous his first effort into these uncharted territories was would not have a good physician on hand to patch his body up to complete his research?
I don’t know what your case level is but if it is above OT III I suggest you read NOTs Series 1 & 2 because that question you ask *is answered by reading those HCOBs*.
Yeah, you got that real wrong. But Debbie’s was far less egregious. Thanks for persisting on this, reminded me of some other critical facts readers ought to know.
Joe — He was a fall guy. But that doesnt excuse his later conduct in my eyes. Put aside all the discussion about whether anyone actually believes he “invented NOTs” (I assure you, there ARE people out there that do think that and its certanly not an idea that was fostered by the Church), he did something inexcusable. He took money to shut up and go away. If he was truly the champion of standard tech, he would NEVER have done that. He was more interested in wind-surfing, and he had a sugar daddy that had supported him for years. He wanted the money. He could have survived without taking the pay off. And he COULD have continued to forward LRH’s legacy. I don’t blame him, and I don’t really care that he did or didnt do that — BUT, for people to still hold him up as a shining example of “standard tech” is pretty deluded. He is so not standard that he does nothing with the tech at all. He took his payoff and slid off into the sunset. Not worthy of admiration IMHO.
Thanks Big M 🙂
Mr. Baker, exactly what creds do you have to make such assertions that LRH appropriated the ideas of others and claimed credit for them (other than those whose ideas he did in fact acknowledge)??
Let’s just take Power as one example: can you kindly tell us exactly WHO came up with that technology, if not LRH?
If it truly was someone else, I’d like to know that person’s name, because he or she is one screaming genius and no doubt contributed other ideas of similar magnitude.
Somehow though I have a feeling this person is a figment of your anti-LRH imagination.
DFB — +1. See comment I just posted in response to Joe Howard — written before I read yours above.
No idea.
Love your comments Karen!
Wow, what a story Dan! Thanks for sharing with us – really answers that question for me.
I’m still laughing about your penchant for comedy having been a driving factor in FPRD development. I can just see the whole thing playing out before my (theta) eyeballs!
Here is the problem with any of this bullshit. If you read the history of the research – which is all available – you’d understand that any of these alleged contributions of others are not a blip on a radar screen in the scheme of things.
Lynne,
Personally I don’t think and never thought that it was as black and white as all that.
Just because he was busted by Miscavige is no endorsement for Sainthood.
Also, though Miscavige may have participated he wasn’t the one to bust him personally.
One thing I object to more than the myth of Mayo is the myth that Miscavige was and is all powerful.
Ditto! Thanks Ralph! Your views over the years, I’ve always seen as some of the best overall.
RJ
Most certainly you bear no resemblance. Yes I am referring to Robin Scott.
I agree with you up to a certain point.
Marty and others did not ‘find a silver lining’.
The likes of Marty, Dan, Jim, Ignacio and others who have been working to get NOTs standardly audited ARE the silver lining.
Without them the NOTs information was at best a spiritual cave-in for some who were exposed to it and at worst a piece of dynamite freely available to any unscrupulous squirrels who wished to play with it (not withstanding a PR nightmare).
So no (IMHO) Robin did not do something laudable here.
Yes in the end analysis you could say this was lucky for us. But that could just be neatly summed up as luck moving in under theta 😉
Dan,
On Google Video and on YouTube are some of David Mayo’s lecture/story talks from the mid 1980s, Santa Barbara.
David Mayo gives his side of the story, I think not as detailed, but I recommend listening to Mayo’s story, which is on YouTube and Google Video, just search his name at those places.
what Mayo said in public and which were recorded and available online, is a start.
Chuck
Pingback: Top Posts — WordPress.com
Hmmm, lets look this over….
LRH was onto Miscavige. But didn’t get him sec checked by someone. Or even personally do it himself.
Those boys that took over the church are SPs (DM and those other individuals in CST.) LRH was not stupid and if he had the idea that something was up with DM or people around him, he would have done something about it. If he wanted to.
But beyond the idea that if LRH was onto DM or others he would have investigated them thoroughly, it seems that the people who he left the church to would of had the mother of all sec checks done by LRH himself, due to the fact that LRH must have known that reports could be falsified. It would of been of the upmost importance to LRH to make sure he was leaving the church in safe hands, surely?
So there are only really two things that could have happened.
1) LRH unknowingly lost the church to SPs. He was the victim.
2) LRH knowingly gave the church to SPs. He was cause.
I agree not having any major stops on making NOTs auditors to deliver NOTs was the main reason Class 8 wasn’t made a prereq to becoming a Class 9. There were not enough people through the Briefing Course, which is the really long haul course even before Class 8.
Theirs.
Well now, that indicates. And I don’t mean about David either 🙂
Hi Mike,
With all due respect, and I DO respect you. I think that you are being pretty tough on David Mayo.
I didn’t know him, I am just giving a viewpoint here. He left or was pushed out in the early 80’s. He was apparently doing his best to bypass and handle a church gone mad. Yes, he sold out at the end and that is unfortunate. But where were the others coming to his rescue or aid? He made what appears to me to be a pretty valiant attempt to handle a tough situation and was under considerable suppression.
Maybe he wasn’t the perfect savior. But from my view, he did a lot for the Scientology religion. I don’t feel that the man should be condemned for all eternity. I think that history will judge him more kindly.
I really think that most that post here would have caved to the suppression he was under at that time.
And most that post here have done far less than Mayo to spread and forward the Scientology philosophy IMHO.
I am not trying to be the “defender” of David Mayo. I just like to give credit where credit seems to be due. Selling out is not good. But all I can say is that I understand why he may have done it in that time and situation.
Mike,
There are other things that give a more tolerant viewpoint of David Mayo. Fact is he was physically imprisoned in some grotty prison on some island due to the Church of Suppression…
How do we know that he wasn’t implanted with black dianetics during this incident? Told to stay away from the tech while under pain and unconsciousness? We know miscavige likes a bit of reverse dianetics, don’t we? And we wouldn’t put it past him to do this kind of operation.
The fact is Mike, you were at the time on the side of the aggressor, the group with all the FORCE and using it suppressively. And in PT you seem to have a hostile attitude towards someone that your group at the time used a hell of a lot suppressive force against for many years.
Mayo saved LRHs life. That makes him worthy of admiration IMHO.
Thanks so much Janis,
A couple years ago, I asked Bruce Hines to read the online 1978 NOTs Series Number 1 bulletin (from the whole NOTs Series of 1978 which are online), and tell me if he thought it was accurate. Bruce said to him, it sounded like a transcript of the tape or tapes of LRH briefing to Melanie, like you said above.
This really confirms to me that the NOTs materials that are online are the right stuff.
This is a very important and valuable thread.
Marty,
🙂
I wonder if that would work with OSAguins?
“I always dreamed of a Scientology where the leaders were in actual comm with the group.” Excellent point, Tony.
The first time I remember experiencing that kind of connection within the Church of Scientology was when Yvonne Jentzsch visited the Austin org where I started Scientology. I felt the same way whenever I encountered Heber in L.A.
Then I had some direct comm with LRH regarding some extraordinary events.
That was it. Unless you count the black-booted, black-shirted, goose-stepping Finance Police. And I don’t count them.
Just Me
Old School,
I’m afraid the actual issues ARE the point, so, very relevant. Having omitted study of them, your opinion of their provenance lacks a certain, well, umm…ah nevermind.
Tony — Everyone is free to have their opinions about David Mayo. My ONLY point is that for anyone to think he is a “tech Opinion Leader” is delusory. That is all. I did know David for many years. In my view he was an arrogant asshole when he was Snr CS FSO. But that is unimportant and there are a lot of people that think I was an arrogant asshole too. It doesnt change anything one way or the other. What IS important is whether people are involved in squirrel practices on the basis of him “developing NOTs” and whether he stood the test of time or did he abandon the subject that he is supposedly such a champion of? Certainly he was there auditing LRH. Almost as certainly had LRH not developed NOTs, Mayo would not have had the distinction of “saving his life.” So, who really accomplished that feat?
@Karen#1, Excellent post! Thanks for doing what’s right by David and setting out the facts. I hope you call him when you are up to it.
~ Mary
Karen, one of your greatest posts. Beautifully and wonderfully stated!
Thank, one of the few responses on this thread I can respect and agree with. the rest seems entheta and a lot of atta boys. Why this need to attack. before anyone starts sliming me, personally when I was in the church, I did not care for David Mayo as a person, felt he was too weak to hold his position, same as I felt about Bill Franks. Both were excellent at their posts, but neither were good fighters, and that was what they both needed to be with what crap was going on, throughout Scientology at that time….no matter where on the planet you were. BUT I did respect what abilities they had. Neither would have survived a good old fashion schoolboy fight on a playground, me I found these fun at that age, when a pacifist was defined as a punching bag.. But both had good clean intentions. and are still being attacked. Why the attack? And why are so many willing to accept what is posted. No facts, just a couple peoples story of what they said happened. No REAL use of the Data Series. This DOES NOT mean that what Marty and Mike have said is wrong, just unproved. Closer to an Opinion. By the way, where is Mayo to defend himself? Was he notified this was coming and offered a chance?
haha!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1028123723501047436#
David Mayo talking.
Infinity. See answer to Tony. I have a tolerant viewpoint towards David personally. I bear him no ill will whatsoever. I dont feel the same way for those who seek to put him on a pedestal as some tech god. His advice/direction/breakthroughs/briefings/opinions on the subject of tech should all be treated the same way he treats them. Walk away and forget they ever existed.
Karen #1, thank you for telling us this. I admire your integrity.
We’ve all done things in this game for which we aren’t proud. Every one of us. Pitching stones is not the answer, IMO. Rising above it and recognizing the good where it exists is. Without that, the healing cannot begin. Without that, we can’t truly get the show back on the road.
I say go ahead and make that call.
A really good definition to look at is “competence” in the admin dictionary.
Competence and sanity are 2 different things. You can have someone who can be very competent in his area and yet be quite mad. I’ve had to deal with people who were brilliant, but were so crazy that it was too much of a liability
And I know Ron ran into the same problem ,particularly on the 3D. I have often seen these people , though , very good at getting public sympathy once they are found out and ousted.
Wow Mark!
As I’ve noted earlier.
You have this innate *ability* to miss the forest for the trees.
First it isn’t that Marty said or accused him of lying.
It is the *fact* that Mayo *lied* when questioned on the authorship of NOTs as a matter of court records and documents.
Records that you should actually read for yourself which will determine what Marty says here is true.
I have friends who were right there at the hearings who pretty much confirm what Marty says here *is true*.
Are you going to call them liars as well Mark.
Even though you don’t know them because they do not agree with your fixed mind set read service fac that someone other than Ron developed the tech.
Something you continually say without offering a shred of proof to support this assertion.
Is it that like the CIA, Adolph Hitler or many of the so called “critics” of Hubbard and Scientology that if you say it enough times that it will become “the truth” even if it is nothing but a bald faced lie?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1400430616300996999#
a person can get a feel for David Mayo as he gives a portion of his history.
Skip to 6 minutes into this video, where David Mayo begins to speak.
I thought this clip was important because Mayo discusses the long despatch that LRH wrote Mayo, which is a famous long LRH despatch.
In case any of you are wondering at my ack and advice to Karen regarding her unresolved comm cycle with David Mayo, know that I care very deeply for her and that she has helped me immeasurably with wise council and good wishes.
Here is some data on the subject of Ho’ Oponopono. I’ve been using it recently. It works. You don’t have to understand or “master” it.
Just do it sincerely.
HO’OPONOPONO
by Joe Vitale
“Two years ago, I heard about a therapist in Hawaii who cured a complete ward of criminally insane patients–without ever seeing any of them. The psychologist would study an inmate’s chart and then look within himself to see how he created that person’s illness. As he improved himself, the patient improved.
“When I first heard this story, I thought it was an urban legend. How could anyone heal anyone else by healing himself? How could even the best self-improvement master cure the criminally insane? It didn’t make any sense. It wasn’t logical, so I dismissed the story.
“However, I heard it again a year later I heard that the therapist had used a Hawaiian healing process called ho ‘oponopono I had never heard of it, yet I couldn’t let it leave my mind. If the story was at all true, I had to know more. I had always understood “total responsibility” to mean that I am responsible for what I think and do. Beyond that, it’s out of my hands. I think that most people think of total responsibility that way. We’re responsible for what we do, not what anyone else does–but that’s wrong.
“The Hawaiian therapist who healed those mentally ill people would teach me an advanced new perspective about total responsibility. His name is Dr. Ihaleakala Hew Len. We probably spent an hour talking on our first phone call. I asked him to tell me the complete story of his work as a therapist.
He explained that he worked at Hawaii State Hospital for four years.
That ward where they kept the criminally insane was dangerous.
Psychologists quit on a monthly basis. The staff called in sick a lot or simply quit. People would walk through that ward with their backs against the wall, afraid of being attacked by patients. It was not a pleasant place to live, work, or visit.
“Dr. Len told me that he never saw patients. He agreed to have an office and to review their files. While he looked at those files, he would work on himself. As he worked on himself, patients began to heal.
“‘After a few months, patients that had to be shackled were being allowed to walk freely,’ he told me. ‘Others who had to be heavily medicated were getting off their medications. And those who had no chance of ever being released were being freed.’ I was in awe.’Not only that,’ he went on, ‘but the staff began to enjoy coming to work.
Absenteeism and turnover disappeared. We ended up with more staff than we needed because patients were being released, and all the staff was showing up to work. Today, that ward is closed.’
“This is where I had to ask the million dollar question: ‘What were you doing within yourself that caused those people to change?’
“I was simply healing the part of me that created them,’ he said. I didn’t understand. Dr. Len explained that total responsibility for your life means that everything in your life- simply because it is in your life–is your responsibility. In a literal sense the entire world is your creation.
“Whew. This is tough to swallow. Being responsible for what I say or do is one thing. Being responsible for what everyone in my life says or does is quite another. Yet, the truth is this: if you take complete responsibility for your life, then everything you see, hear, taste, touch, or in any way experience is your responsibility because it is in your life. This means that terrorist activity, the president, the economy or anything you experience and don’t like–is up for you to heal. They don’t exist, in a manner of speaking, except as projections from inside you. The problem isn’t with them, it’s with you, and to change them, you have to change you.
“I know this is tough to grasp, let alone accept or actually live. Blame is far easier than total responsibility, but as I spoke with Dr. Len, I began to realize that healing for him and in ho’oponopono means loving yourself.
“If you want to improve your life, you have to heal your life. If you want to cure anyone, even a mentally ill criminal you do it by healing you.
“I asked Dr. Len how he went about healing himself. What was he doing, exactly, when he looked at those patients’ files?
“‘I just kept saying, ‘I’m sorry’ and ‘I love you’ over and over again,’ he explained.
“That’s it?
“That’s it.
“Turns out that loving yourself is the greatest way to improve yourself, and as you improve yourself, you improve your world.
“Let me give you a quick example of how this works: one day, someone sent me an email that upset me. In the past I would have handled it by working on my emotional hot buttons or by trying to reason with the person who sent the nasty message.
“This time, I decided to try Dr. Len’s method. I kept silently saying, ‘I’m sorry’ and ‘I love you,’ I didn’t say it to anyone in particular. I was simply evoking the spirit of love to heal within me what was creating the outer circumstance.
“Within an hour I got an e-mail from the same person. He apologized for his previous message. Keep in mind that I didn’t take any outward action to get that apology. I didn’t even write him back. Yet, by saying ‘I love you,’ I somehow healed within me what was creating him.
“I later attended a ho ‘oponopono workshop run by Dr. Len. He’s now 70 years old, considered a grandfatherly shaman, and is somewhat reclusive.
He praised my book, The Attractor Factor. He told me that as I improve myself, my book’s vibration will raise, and everyone will feel it when they read it. In short, as I improve, my readers will improve.
“‘What about the books that are already sold and out there?’ I asked.
“‘They aren’t out there,’ he explained, once again blowing my mind with his mystic wisdom. ‘They are still in you.’ In short, there is no out there. It would take a whole book to explain this advanced technique with the depth it deserves.
“Suffice It to say that whenever you want to improve anything in your life, there’s only one place to look: inside you. When you look, do it with love.
http://www.davedavies.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?id=101
Original thread at http://mistsofavalon.invisionplus.net/?mforum=mistsofavalon&showtopic=231
Chuck,
There was a lot the RTC did wrong in that period but Mayo and the AAC were not as pristinely virtuous they claim to be.
They were working on gaining motivators as well.
I personally witnessed the aftermath of several raids of the Church by various plants sent in by the AAC to acquire more accurately steal meters and materials.
Maybe Mayo didn’t instigate these operations personally but that doesn’t mean they didn’t happen.
Also Mayo embraced Robin Scott like some long lost comrade when completed the AOSH raid.
Sure maybe the fact that we were under the influence of a coup at the time that may have *justified* such overt and covert actions.
But the fact is espionage is espionage and violates the policy on Counter Espionage.
I’ve not heard anything. Below in this thread I put two links to Google videos of Mayo speaking.
if you go onto YouTube, there are a half dozen videos of Mayo speaking there.
The one I linked of Mayo below, where Mayo speaks of the long despatch that LRH wrote him, I found the most interesting historically.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1028123723501047436#
Marty wrote an important paragraph in this blog ~~
text
OT VIIs and above, hear this about all those conditions formulas you did for out security, including the tens of thousands you might have been coerced into paying to get Ethics off your backs. Those conditions assignments were bogus and meaningless. In fact, they have been ruthlessly enforced by David Miscavige’s RTC for the past two decades
Some 3- 4 years ago I printed off an Email I received from someone with some NOTS material. Why I printed it off is not relevant. The content is and has been on the web, cross copied and posted 10s of 1000s of times.
In other words, it is BPI = Broad Public Issue.
As it happened my son Alexander Jentzsch visited me in a lunch break and read the issue. It made no sense (the MU formula) and he asked me questions about it.
I was duly upset. I was responsible for having the issue and he read it. Like a “good” Scientologist, born in the shadows of Big Blue he dutifully went back to CLO and wrote a Knowledge report on me for having printed out an Email containing NOTSs.
AOLA MAA Julian EXPLODED at me with a series of phone calls.
++++++He was going to visit my home and search all my computers.
++++++He had the Authority or Legal authority to enter my home and do a SEARCH and SEIZURE !
+++++He had no Court Order, I had no constitutional rights re Search and Seizure, he was the MAA and my entire spiritual FUTURE was damned if I did not let him in my home to study my computers !
++++++I had only RECENTLY given them a check for some $75,000 and they were going to show me WHO was BOSS !
++++++Julian barred me from the complex (PAC) til he had done a personal computer search
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well sometimes, I am not very nice.
Sometimes I blow my cool on PURPOSE.
I asked for a refund of my recent $75,000
~~~~~~that went over like a lead balloon.
We will kick you in the gutter, but we will keep your $$$$$$$$$$$.
Not long after, spitefully, and vindictively my folders were kidnapped out of AOLA and sent to Flag for the stat of 10,000 on Solo NOTS.
The admin at AOLA called me for $250 to pay shipping fees for the folders being shipped to Flag without my permission and consent.
Do not want to go on and on about my full story.
I am validating Marty’s note on PUNISHMENT, BULLYING, THUGGERY on the NOTS material available on the web for decades but huge punishments being doled out for out security.
Mike,
Mayo had to be highly at cause to save LRHs life with the auditing he did. How many auditors could of simply kept their TRs in to give effective auditing to their nearly dead founder?! That’s a pretty big challenge to say the least. A lot of auditors might well have gotten overwhelmed by the whole situation and importance of it and messed up…
“What IS important is whether people are involved in squirrel practices on the basis of him “developing NOTs”…? ”
You seem to be continuing the use of David Mayo as fall guy. Back in the day, he was THE squirrel. In PT, according to you, Mayo is responsible for other people’s squirrelling…
Hmmm.
“Walk away and forget they ever existed.”
I get very suspicious when people use such phrases Mike.
REASONS NEVER TO CALL DAVID MAYO
1. He could still be using that ‘special’ phone the church plant gave him for Christmas.
2. He’s learned a secret Hindu throat hum that could blind you.
3. He’s into Reverse Telemarketing now and you won’t be able to resist the magazine subscriptions, new phone service and overpriced cruise tickets he will make you buy.
4. He’s still mad at you for yelling at Jeff Walker and making him cry.
5. Now he’s really really mad at you for reminding him about that Mayonaisse thing.
Infinity,
Personally agree with you to a point.
First I never bought the lone Miscavige theory but its a theory and personally know that if the Ol’man had cottoned on to Miscavige he would have been shot from guns just like Horner, Roos, Sibersky, Parkhouse etc.
The only reason that Jane Kember was never personally spotted was that she managed to create enough confusion is her area to deflect attention away from her.
Besides she wasn’t the only one creating it.
We also have turn coat Miesner in B1 as well as well as an assortment of spooks and former spooks in the mix.
This could have been the same with Miscavige and Broeker.
Two individuals that would have been very hard to spot in all of the confusion being generated at the time.
However above all this was the fact that the Ol’man turned over the Church to the management that took over which also meant *us*.
So if there is anyone to blame.
Just take a look in the mirror.
Some people simply cannot have the idea that some other people are quite happy with Excal. Is it LRH? Well, not really. Is it way better than NOTs in the Church in PT? From what I’ve gathered, yes. I’m not interested in either right now.
I feel like he’s out there, maybe even reading this site. Maybe other feel that too and thats why he keeps coming up.
He apparently is muzzled as you say. I assume he signed some sort of legal agreement and accepted money in exchange.
I think thats the main thing people need to understand here. Not that he’s a good guy or a bad guy or any sort of personal judgement against him.
Tony, the Church offered Mayo money in exchange for a settlement agreement- a legally binding (possibly not IMO) written agreement which said he will forever cease to do this and that and to say or write this and that, and he took the money and signed it. Even if he wanted to “come back” he would have fear of the Church holding that against him.
Words of wisdom Mike.
Robert Dinero, The Deer Hunter, scene on the mountain by the Cadillac, holding a bullet up, “Ya see this? This is this.”
Sort a but he doesn’t even know how to spell DOX.
Gotta see that one again. Been a while.
There is no evidence that Mayo alone “saved Ron’s life”.
If there was anything that saved his life it was the discovery of NOTs.
Just as an auditor’s application of Standard Tech saves lives every day.
And yes there was some Black Dianetics on Mayo as in the perverted perversion of the RP that he was subjected to.
But the fact is that others have gone through far worse and didn’t sell out for a measly 2 Mil and walk away.
If you want to turn Mayo into some kind of Folk hero of some kind than go right ahead.
However there are a few of us who differ on that score.
RJ, you make excellent points as usual.
Mike,
Any idea how much loot Mayo was paid?
Thanks Mike
Hi Mike,
I understand your point of view.
I don’t put D Mayo on a tech pedestal. I am just saying the guy MUST have done some very good things or LRH must have made some HUGE mistakes. I wasn’t there so for me it’s mostly theoretical.
Millions. But then again, he had a costs and fees award of nearly $3 million as I recall.
+1 RJ
Yeah — that’s why you should be suspicious of Mayo. That’s what he did.
I agree we shouldn’t give D Misc that much credibility. LOL
I think the church was and is full of SPs, despite ethics. And not just 2.5 per 100 as in any normal environment. The church is teeming with the assholes.
“However above all this was the fact that the Ol’man turned over the Church to the management that took over which also meant *us*.”
Well I personally was involved in the church for about 2 years, took a good look around – including sea org – and got the fuck out of there quick! So my co-creation of that church of suppression was somewhat brief and non-consequential…
“So if there is anyone to blame.
Just take a look in the mirror.”
RJ, I’m not playing the blame game. Just finding out causes and effects. Which is the game of scientology, is it not. There is knowing cause and unknowing cause. In the case of the handing over of the church to SPs by LRH, it was one or the other.
Karen, you are an awesome being. I so got it. I never did buy into any 3p on David Mayo. I love your post and your integrity.
tsinatasysaeoottsujstahtho
It seems noteworthy that Jon Atack, as Chairman of the OT Committee UK signed the 1984 SP Declare on David Miscavige, as posted here:
http://www.scientology-cult.com/1984-sp-declare-on-david-miscavige.html
Not everything is about money Mike. I doubt that was his motivation.
“And yes there was some Black Dianetics on Mayo as in the perverted perversion of the RP that he was subjected to.
But the fact is that others have gone through far worse and didn’t sell out for a measly 2 Mil and walk away.”
RJ, please read this report by mayo to see the extent of the suppression he endured.
http://www.freezone.org/reports/e_mayo02.htm
To say he sold out for money is very harsh.
Cheese you need a trollectomy.
You can doubt all you want Infinity. I handed him the check. Have you spoken to him or are you just here asserting yourself like you have some specal knowledge?
Agreed,
But why the heck did Scientology have to go spying and trashing his operation and sue him? Why not just let him do what he was doing, even with the stolen materials? Let him fail or succeed on his own, is what I would have done.
Why get into some big op term with ex members who want to go out and set up shop on their own? Let em!
Other religions give their scriptures away for free!
May be harsh. But its true.
Pingback: Deconstructing the Mayo Myth (via Moving On Up a Little Higher) « My LRH
Mike,
Mayo would not have, IMO, accepted the deal if it hadn’t been for the persecution he suffered and the engram he was given prior to that offer, at the hands of the church of suppression.
The money was the end of the incident in which he had suffered pain and unconsciousness. To say the cause of Mayo giving up tech delivery was the money offered is to omit the fact that he was persecuted for some time and given an engram prior to that offer.
Very clever of the church to end the engram with a bribe so it made Mayo look bad (money motivated).
Mike, see my comment above regarding how the money offered was at the end of a period of persecution and an engram. Without the persecution and engram the money bribe would have easily failed and Mayo would likely be still delivering tech and clearing many people.
“David put in his 100 hour weeks, served the Commodore, kept the Apollo afloat with the small handful of auditors which were virtually the only source of Income for the ship in those days. This permitted LRH to continue his research and David was the key person enabling the Apollo HGC to flourish and prosper.
I can only image the how the WRONG ITEM of forcing him to run around a pole for 12 hours a day in HEMET sun for months (he lost his teeth) impacted him.”
Karen,
I loved your post. Not that you need advise but, “When in doubt, communicate!”
Maybe he got mad. Just maybe, he felt betrayed. After dedicating his life for so many years and then to receive treatment such as you have described would be a gross invalidation and degradation.
Having graduated from 3 lists on the FPRD, I will say, I have killed for less. Not recently, but let say conceptually. Why were all the big guys declared? John McMasters, Otto Roose, Phil Speckler… these were the famous Scientologists when I first arrived. The list of staff from the old days reads like a who’s who of world class SP’s.
Thank you for your post here. You continue to be someone that impacts me intensely.
My replies are not placed where I intended, but end up down the thread.
Chuck,
The only reason we set our sites on Mayo’s AAC was because they were the only Squirrel Group that was directly attacking us.
I’m sure you remember the LRHED entitled ‘Squirrels’ about only going after squirrels who attack you.
Actually we still had the GO still in operation at the time and I think the whole project was run either by Marlowe or Aznaran through the RTC rep at ASHO a good friend of mine by the name of Red Van Dyke instead of the Rabid Squirrel who was over at ASI making everybody’s life over there miserable which was probably the reason why the operation was a success.
Hell it was one of the few actual wins we had organizationally before it all went black Chuck.
At least take comfort in that.
Also the GO’s fun and games only played a small part in the actual victory.
Much of it was fought on the technical battle field.
It seems that back then more Scientologists preferred Standard Tech over Mayo’s twisted version of it.
Does it mean one can jump directly from OT4 to OT8. Skip NOTs if not C/Sed to do it? ie if no body problems or other conditions that require NOTs.
Actually I was being somewhat kind in my assessment of Mayo Infinity he not only sold out but went to the dark side as well.
Aside from what Marty already covered in his subsequent post was the fact that his AAC directly attacked the Organization by running a covert operation against us.
Not only that but as Ron’s auditor he violated priest penitent privilege (even if the information seems somewhat embellished) in his article entitled “Reflections”.
What kind of “auditor” does that sort of thing?
“trollectomy”
Gotta remember that one.
Thanks for expanding my vocabulary Thoughtful Steve babe 🙂
Maybe 20 contributions of any significant value, out of 100,0000? That was LRH’s estimate in KSW1.
Thank you Janis for your truth re; R and Mayo. And Karen D? Beautiful, truthful post.
Roy
I agree that we shouldn’t buy into the 3P on dear ol’ David but on the other hand I don’t see making the guy into some holy martyr or assign him sainthood.
The guy did squirrel the tech to some extend.
Not as bad as the current Dave and his team of 5th invaders who currently hold down Government jobs.
But almost.
Here it’s just a matter of degree.
Also, Mafiawog, these NOTs tapes were always confidential, and weren’t even part of the NOTs training that a NOTs auditor would have listened to. Their entire purpose was for use in writing the written issues. And they were not part of the materials that were lifted by Robin Scott. At least that’s my understanding.
When a nearly 50 year old man who spent his life promoting the success of the tech of scientology is forcibly kidnapped, tortured, his health physically ruined, then escapes, manages to set himself up in an ongoing activity where he is then criminally harassed by ignorant goons acting on behalf of the man who betrayed him to begin with, subsequently finds himself attacked by a multi-million dollar enterprise which involves him in an intentionally extended litigation proceeding in order to break him and crush his fledgling operation (all by orders of the man who betrayed him), manages to survive nearly 10 years of this extensive legal harassment and FINALLY in his 6th decade is offered a chance to let the incessant harassment end AND obtain a cash settlement to PARTIALLY COMPENSATE him for ALL THAT HE HAD ENDURED at the hands of L. RON HUBBARD & the Church of Scientology …
then HE has earned the right to take the money and walk away.
Even if this is YOUR BLOG, Marty, is UTTER HUBRIS on your part, given your many contributions to criminal activities and legal harassments of L. Ron Hubbard & his church, for you to deign to sit in judgement on a man of the character of David Mayo.
A most excellent post !!!
Logan, don’t you know enough to see there was a Marty’s hint that he refused to further explain? Nice attempt to make me Q&A, but I haven’t come here to fight anybody, although you may wish to.
It seems Mayo followed in Robertson’s footsteps, but into another direction:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metapsychology
Well in the LRHED entitled “What was Wrong” you are going to end up with the same number of SPs as you find outside Scientology if you don’t run Grade I.
Personally I think that the idea was a myth and a false perception perpetrated by the coup.
Like the idea that the GO was composed of nothing but criminals to create a witch hunt.
Of the kind Ron talks about in the HCOPL on the Antisocial Personality.
I never believed that there were that many actual SPs that were uncovered by the “clean team” that took over.
PTS maybe but *not* SPs.
I think there were maybe at the most 2 1/2% who were obviously missed.
Miscavige being a perfect example of one who was.
Probably Wendel Reynolds formerly of the Finance Police was another one and there were probably one or two in the GO who have since moved over to OSA that would probably fit the bill.
Maybe a few more.
Then of course you have your plants and informants of the shape shifting variety who were able to avoid being Roll Backed etc.
But they weren’t actual SPs by definition.
They just happened to work for suppressive Government Agencies.
Personally I never found the Church teaming with assholes until maybe the “RTC Youth” arrived on the scene in the late ’90’s.
Of course I’ve taken responsibility for that fiasco by admitting to the fact that I formerly worked on one of projects that sent many of these young impressionable minds with no worldly experience over to Int to be perverted.
My bad to that extent.
Hell if I had of known what was I was subjecting these poor kids to I probably would have instructed them to get drunk, “feed their heads” and go get laid before their Qual interviews and Life history write ups.
I think contributing to their delinquency probably would have been the lesser of the two evils 😉
Would love to buy you some coffee to show my appreciation. 😀
Tony,
There is no doubt that Mayo was a good auditor and C/S at one time who “turned” or was “turned” at some point later.
What I don’t seem to understand why Ron had made a mistake.
It was obvious to him and to Karen who worked under him that he was very capable of getting excellent products and cared as a C/S.
To be suspicious would have violated the policy on ‘Organization the Flaw’.
The fact is that we are all “broken straws” big Tony.
However some of us are more broken than others.
Aaaah, yes of course, thanks Alan. I remember those reg cycles, and the whole “flap” over the Time article. I remember the small CT group being hyped up by some or other visiting reg, and one parent getting very fed up because her 13 year old kid had given up all his life savings to the IAS following the regging, to “smash the suppressives.” I found it all very bizarre and surreal, and not matching at all what I thought Scientology was all about. At the time, I did not put it all together, had NO idea of the inner workings or history of the organization. Bloody hell – so I arrived just as it went truly DM squirrell. No wonder I did not last more than 4 years. 😀
Thanks for the further context, appreciated.
Roger that Joe,
That was one of the most hilarious yet cogent account of the development of FPRD I’ve ever read.
🙂
Thanks big guy.
I can’t stop chuckling.
“Not all tech is in HCOBs.”
However what we call *Standard Tech* only exists in HCOBs and no where else.
+1!
Big Michael.
You stated it very well indeed.
Sam,
He wasn’t just “lucky” .
He pulled off a brilliant intelligence coup by using the aura of *authority* that the coup have carefully inculcated against itself.
I mean if the Ad Course Admin had even questioned his MOs it would have been game over for Robin Hood and his Merry Band of Thieves.
No Mayo was ousted because he altered the tech and was caught doing so.
True there may have been a power push involved but this does not preclude the fact that Mayo did what he did.
Thanks Janis,
This adds more depth to the discussion.
I think you should be more kind and less arrogant in your comments about David Mayo or anyone else out from the church in the early 80s. It sounds a bit like we are GOOD and they were BAD…. a sort of Grade IV unflat.
Mike, Mayo refused a payoff in the early years, like you did. He was still a scientologist and though Scientology had to be free from Co$. He had the good purpose to free the Tech.
People leave Scientology for good with just a little wrong indication, but took 14 Years of litigation and harassment to have him change his mind.
Maybe he looked at the products of Scientology, the harassment and suppressions he endured from you, and said “Is this the product of Scientology? A criminal organization that harass people?”, “If Scientology is to make people better and free, why so many good people turned into evil David Miscavige slaves?”
If anything, it proves that 15 years of harassment and reverse Scientology works. They can turn the most skilled Class XII C/S into a wog.
In 1995 Mayo was no longer a Scientologist, and stated it publickly. And I see no overt, from a non Scientologist point of view, to take the compensation for the harasment received and start to build a new life away from all the crap endured.
Leaving Scientology is not a crime. Jeff Hawkins left scientology too, but you still respect him.
I also don’t think for a moment that someone who spend +20 years on staff can be accused of bein money-motivated. Even if if he accepts millions(?) for damage compensation or legal fees and a gag.
Sorry, My point was made. Refute it if you can. Otherwise, it has NOTHING to do with what I stated.
Umm, which eye witness accounts of LRH & Mayo post session conversations are you referring to?
RJ, you gave here what very much looks like a DA Co$ hatred generalization. There where people who pick up their materials from the org and go to study at AAC? I bet. But AAC people stealing meters and materials not theirs from the ORG? I find this hard to believe, given that no mention of this is in any court paper, and would be something Co$ would have certainly prosecuted if true. Yet it is well known in specific details the other way around, with Bob Mithoff infiltrating AAC staff and stealing AAC mailing list.
I’d be happy to see a site dedicated to AAC history, and the stories people have surrounding it, because I think AAC and the people who showed up, had a lot same thought processes that ex official members have had all through the decades and many same complaints as now.
I differ overall, I think going after “squirrel” groups (to whatever degree they “squirrel”) is a waste of time.
Let each fail or succeed on their own.
I feel Mayo mainly was pushed into the squirrel enemy role. And I think his learning curve, coming up against other ex members who were then going even “more squirrel” must also almost be a natural progression.
LRH’s solution is the legal official church’s rules, which I think were somewhat wrong, and certainly under Miscavige, the atmosphere Mayo and his AAC lived under was an extreme application of LRH’s legal defense policies, etc.
I see nothing wrong with that freezone LRH phrase about keeping the work free.
Mayo I felt was definitely pushed into that anti LRH role.
I favor the “tech” LRH lays out in the 1959 “Individuation” tape, where LRH said something like “…let them go…..they’ll come back….”
The legalistic blame and attack and counter attack stuff and counter blame stuff, makes a lot of incidents to run out as rudiments and with repair lists.
There are so many stories, it’s be interesting to hear the whole story on Mayo’s descent into his counter attack against LRH, is all. But likely he’s gagged, so can’t and probably doesn’t care even, to detail it, and a lot of other people who co-lived it should be asked about it all also.
“People leave Scientology for good with just a little wrong indication, but took 14 Years of litigation and harassment to have him change his mind.” FALSE. It took less than two years – read the next post.
There it is. Initially slightly masked, but now in full bloom.
I’d say that’s about right.
Another good point of differentiation.
In short: pure anarchy, justice-free area.
Oh yeah, Dennis Rodman be da man!
<img src=http://media.hollyscoop.com/Images/PGImages/18749970—dennis_rodman.jpg
Oops.
Chuck,
I think you are right here. I couldn’t reconcile some LRH advices that said to ignore them because they’ll be gone in a couple years on their own accord, and others that said run them over with a Mack truck. Mainly couldn’t reconcile them because the latter were jammed down my throat the moment I walked on the scene. But, at the end of the day I think you are right. I am letting them. And I am asking that in return they let me. There is a double standard going on on the outside. I am no more required to join “CBR’s org”, “AAC hangers on”, or “freezone”, as I am required to toe the C of M line. At the end of the day, I simply making that distinction clear.
I’ll get the hang of this yet …
Please, don’t give DM the credit for being an auditor of any kind. According to reports he didn’t ever graduate, after having assaulted a PC in session.
Disambiguation: By DM I wasn’t referring to Mayo here.
Karen#1,
I always have a good feeling reading your post… but this one is the best ever! i knew he wasn’t’ a bad guy!
”I am still today hung up in my own overt here” Please get rid of this, get the relief…you deserved it, just do it
From the Tech Dictionary: “standard tech isn’t a process
or a series of processes. It’s how to make
auditing work. (LRH ED 83 INT)”
This can be found in the *materials* of Scientology, not just the HCOB’s. Tapes and books also contain standard tech. Even if you’re talking about the specific subset that LRH refers to in the Class VIII course as Standard Tech your definition is still wrong.
BTW the Peter Principle, “the cream rises until it sours”, is a great viewpoint on the workings of wog organizations and government. It doesn’t explain why execs of Scientology organizations are incompetent though, that has more to do with the Stockholm Syndrome and ser facs.
I wouldn’t be so fast to judge. Peter Principle was in full bloom during long stretches and had its effect.
Marty,
This is the only aspect of your persona that gives me cause for concern — the one-eyed LRH proponent. There are adequate reports of LRH’s appropriation of the discoveries of others for Patricia’s comment to be accurate, and innocuous enough to pass without such commentary. The study tech is such a case.
Rob
Tara,
I can’t take credit for the imagery. My bank made me do it. My crazies are a never ending source of amusement to me. I never know what they’re going to come up with. Which gives life such sweet randomity.
Which is why I never want to go clear. What would life be like without my crazies?
Michael
Have you seen the value of the USD recently? The empire already fell.
Someone once defined RTC as, “that 2 1/2% of Scientologists who manage the organization.” Well I thought it was funny anyhow.
Matepsychology was Sarge Gerbode’s group. He was a psychiatrist (as Marty noted) and an early SHSBC graduate who became disaffected in the 60s. The mention of Mayo there is fairly specious, but errors in Wikipedia are common.
I’m surprised that Marty’s April 5 post “Human Trafficking Cover Up” only has around 160 replies, yet this one about David Mayo, who in my opinion is a much less important subject gets 433 views.
I just don’t understand why a discussion about “who’s the squirrel” incite more discussion than Tom Cruise and the Simon Wiesenthal center participating in the cover-up of America’s gulag — Scientology’s RPF.
We need to inform the Wiesenthal center of the grave mistake they are making. Likewise, the various authorities and media in LA, Riverside and Clearwater need to be educated as to what really goes on in the RPF. Many posting here have lived it. I also believe the captives in the RPF are in grave danger because of what is called “The Lucifer Effect”. Please google it and watch some hair raising lectures and compare the situation at Int/Gold base and other Scientology RPF camps.
The name “Scientology” is damaged, but it will be utterly destroyed when a major human tragedy occurs in an RPF camp. So if you’all want to KSW, please help expose and stop the RPF camps first.
Marty: “If you think that is ok”
Why would you say that? I merely asked you how you would know and why would you bring your allegation that the special master’s was an “alcoholic,” nowhere do I imply that whatever wrong you allege “is ok.”
When you say “I saw him”, what are you saying exactly? That the special master was drunk while arbitrating the case? If so, are there other witnesses to this?
In any case, one of the special master comment is that it was “abundantly clear that plaintiffs [the Church of Scientology] sought to harass the individual defendants and destroy the church defendants through massive over-litigation and other highly questionable litigation tactics” goes along with what many others have observed about the Church of Scientology at the time, including other judges who have not been alleged to suffer alcoholism as far as I know.
You say that you and Mike Rinder “compiled the evidence from LRH’s archives” with regards to the NOTs. What mechanism is there in the Church of Scientology to guarantee that all LRH archives are kept pristine, unadulterated? I ask because I suppose someone could raise a reasonable doubt as to whether the archives was pristine, or whether it has been tampered in any way, prior to your review.
Last question: You obviously mind Mayo having been “found a liar,” why don’t you mind in the same manner Hubbard also having been found a liar?
None. I made no such reference.
You remember being in the reg cycles, well I can go one worse. I remember doing the call in for those bloody reg cycles 🙂
By god, that was an engramic time period….
“There is no doubt that Mayo was a good auditor and C/S at one time who “turned” or was “turned” at some point later.
What I don’t seem to understand why Ron had made a mistake.”
Perhaps I missed it, but I haven’t seen any evidence presented that LRH really did turn against Mayo and did it in person.
We know Mayo ran around trees – was LRH observed to order that? I’ve heard talk of despatches etc from LRH criticizing Mayo, but such things can be forged.
It just seems to me that LRH suddenly turning on Mayo is very out of character; whereas a certain 3rd party inserting himself into LRH’s comm lines is very much in character for the 3rd party.
ML — Obviously I am not making myself clear, though I have stated it several times now.
I bear no grudge towards Mayo. I dont second guess the decisions he made.
BUT, the decisions he DID make certainly disprove the notion that he was a “champion” of standard tech and somsone to be listened to on the subject. Those who still place him on a pedestal as a model of technical know-how are ignoring the fact that he WALKED AWAY from the entire subject. IF he really knew the route to total freedom, and was dedicated to it, do you think he would have walked away for ANY REASON? LRH didnt.
The argument will go on until the end of time whether he was coerced, given wrong-indications, tricked, lied to or invalidated, or whether he was motivated by self-importance and personal power and fortune (like DM). But what will NOT change, no matter what anyone says, is the FACT that he abandoned the subject. For money. Because he was tired. Because he preferred wind-surfing. Because whatever…. it doesnt matter. He announced often that he had been anointed by LRH. He announced often that he was the purveyor of standard tech. Yet, after a couple of years, he walked away to windsurf. I really don’t mind that he did. That was his choice for sure. Defend his right to do that all you want. But dont try to defend him as a zealot of standard tech. He renounced that position when he renounced the tech.
Didn’t you meet me face to face last summer?
Ralph Your Dead right .
Re Jon Attack he was or did become anti LRH .It became a source of no creditability at all.Frankly more of a harassment in the end during the start of Independance .
I will say it seems any one that helped make a difference or offered a alternative outside the Church together with their personal opinions about these two people I will mention the names along the way . Gave a Lot of Help and Gave up a lot to do what they did put it out there , Place for people to go , Yet got talked about in discredit format over many web’s . Seems Allways in a Degrading Manner based on hearsay rumours and their Private life hung out for viewing Capt Bill not able to be here to defend himself . I dont know whats all written about Mayo ,or his defense , if he if bothers today but its known over the web sites, and gossip on both Mayo , and Capt Bill Robertson.
Both as Far as I am concerned helped a lot of people with an alternative way to obtain what they went to the church of Scientology for , and without that offer outside some unsure what to think known , or do now outside , Without this their would have be confusion beyond beleif. Thank god it did not happen . These mentioned , and those Not Mentioned have put Certainty to the Spreading Keep Scientology Working and made a difference . And thank you .
We wouldn’t be having this discussion otherwise if those Brave ones didn’t take the plunge back then in those early days of Indept and started it.
Certaintly I personally will vouch for CBR at least in Europe Capt Bill Robertson ( full Name ) was a Major player. I f Capt Bill was was around , No doubtwould have no problem with defense, and many would back him. I am happy to be part of that and helped him until he died.
The Motto was The tech is there and its Free to use , USE IT .
I dont beleive its at all useful to spread private techincally matters that will not be supported on both sides . Mayo may not have been a Saint , and neither a lot of others either, Including myself. Whats the point of making an issue on Mayo now or pushing him in a downward manner . As far as its known with many to witness LRH and Mayo’s help worked together at that time , Being Mayo the CS LRH was working with at that time.And Yes LRH Source .LRH DEAD , and Mayo out of site . For some Maybe .What is the Big Issue .
If you read and applied some Scientology to result you’d understand.
That is partly what I am talking about. In this day and age of free information, a slave-based economy cannot long survive.
Ok, who is source of study tech?
and that makes him an “alcoholic”??? how dare you Marty.
Gee then I guess one could say the same about you, after seeing you in the Big Easy acting like ….well an “ass”…
you don’t have the balls to let this through.
I have a copy of the Bridge on my wall from the 1990’s. It clearly states the prerequisites for Class IX include the SHSBC and the Class VIII course.
That’s a fundamental misunderstanding of what “body problems” are. No, if you want to get yourself – in the human form – cleaned up, you should do it as the Ol’ Man said to do it.
I just got on this thread and have to get going so can’t read more but Mayo’s no demon, but neither is he a god. He was a good c/s and auditor who got his pc out of trouble. Did he invent NOTs? No, but he was there.
Also, the MRs know that when it comes to Scientology, what anyone testifies about the Tech in a court of law is never the truth, so Mayo, feeling beseiged, did the expedient thing.
It’s really 101 on how to execute a coup. Dispose of rivals. The Munchkin knew his biggest hurdles were (a) anyone who actually understood Scientology and knew the Tech (so the Class XIIs had to go) and (b) anyone who had personal contact with LRH.
Mayo then goes to the head of the list with the Messengers right behind … Mayo didn’t know how to fight back. Taking MissCabbage into session to pull W/Hs meant his demise had to be accelerated.
Pat’s a pathetic figure in all of this: the guy who goes along with the plot and ends up eating the last bullet from his pal.
Hi. Has anyone replying here taken the time to study
http://www.wiseoldgoat.com/papers-scientology/hubbard_story_of_mayo2_soed.html#index
A good effort to document and indicate out-points was made on that website.
Pat
Francois: Would you deny someone the right to do his or her RPF?
Anonymous is right to protest the abuses and human trafficking in the current Church of Scientology. Anonymous (or the German government) shouldn’t question individual practices within Scientology technology as this runs counter to the “free speech” values heralded.
It comes down to free will (self-determinism). If some Scientologists want (and need) to do a RPF (or running program), then they shouldn’t be stopped because of government (secular) interference.
If there are Scientologists held against their will, however, we expect you to continue fighting for their freedom!
Paolo .
Share this view myself, ( I remember you well ) I don’t know if you would remember me . If you recall Thomas Butcher & Marin Garcia AOSHDK Rep’s late 80’s I was Chief Tours Europe
Perhaps he will solve the situation by sending Jenny Linson to sort the matter out.
Thanks for your insite on David Mayo Karen
Arrgh, no, you are right, I cannot match that. You win! 😀
Seriously happy you are out of there, Alan.
So, on a final review, if I have it right, we have:
– David Mayo never authored, co-created or contributed to the development of the NOTs, he was merely the transcriptionist
– There was a very long court case to establish that David Mayo was not the author or co-contributer of the NOTs
– However, despite the fact that it had been established in court that David Mayo had nothing to do with the development of the NOTs, David Miscavige et al told the paying public in the early 1990’s that the NOTs were corrupted because David Mayo had altered/squirrelled them, and the paying public had to go back and get a different version of the NOTs.
And this was after it had been established in court that he had not authored or contributed to the NOTs.
Oh crap, I STILL don’t get it…….
Good site.
Michel has done some excellent research.
One of the few places where you can find the Celebrity article where Ingo says that he recovered his psychic abilities through auditing.
Also he has documented the alterations that have occurred in the tech since the coup took over.
I’m sure their point man Davy would be chewing the carpet if he knew what was on the site.
It’s a good thing the lil’ guy’s illiterate 😉
Yes I know Kim.
The thing is that you weren’t intended to get it in the corrupt entity known as the “Church of Scientology”.
I mean if you actually got it then you would have been a existential threat to Dave and his friends.
This is why they tell you when you’ve almost gotten it that you didn’t because it was altered by some guy who hasn’t been on lines for decades and therefore you have to do it again so that you really get it.
It’s almost as bad as EST.
Maybe worse because at least in EST you do get something though I’m not quite sure what it is.
It’s not that hard to grasp 🙂 Just don’t make the mistake of trying to deal with it logically – there are personalities involved, real people. And people do the oddest things.
Some very important bits to note: I was there from ’85 and nothing, I mean NOTHING, in detail filtered down to PTA org level from Flag or management about Mayo’s court case. What did come down was the gigantic blue-on-blue issue about Mayo The Squirrel with maybe a passing reference to the case – we mere public far away from the USA were left blissfully unaware. Very long on accusations that Mayo was the worst being ever, very short indeed on actual data and detail.
Then along came the new NOTs a few years later.
I’d be willing to bet a lot of money that Miscavige’s plan all along was to alter the tech to become unworkable right from the start. But he needed a scapegoat, some kind of plausible reason for issuing altered Upper Level materials. Mayo was a perfect scapegoat, he could be manipulated into a compromising position (helped along by his own overts) and through various shenanigans Mayo got positioned as the person on whom everything could be blamed for a very long time. In this, DM succeeded greatly – how many people do you know who bought the “Mayo is bad!” line and never questioned it, but just went ahead and redid NOTs? We both know OTs who did just that.
As I see it, two very important datums come out of this:
David Mayo is an auditor and C/S with a long track record of very good products and a couple of whopper overts. He knows how to wake up, smell the coffee and work towards making it all right again. He might wait till the church collapses first and the gag order is certainly unenforceable, but he could do it.
David Miscavige on the other hand, I doubt it.
Michel makes many good points about the Clearing Course. There is missing data, however, as Miscavige previously announced in an event (around 2004?) that Solo NOTs is the route to Clear. (Without saying it directly, DM admitted how Solo NOTs unofficially replaced the Clearing Course.)
I was there when David Mayo was being attacked by the church for using the technology outside their control. I was there when Robin Scott came to offer him the materials they took from AODK. I was there when David refused their offer of those materials because he had in fact written them. He told them thanks, but he did not need them. We saw this with our own eyes at the time it happened. David Mayo’s name was at the bottom of all the issues when NOTS came out. He was the one who put it all together with LRH in order to run them on LRH.
Whatever the lawyers told the people who hired them, in the church at that time, whatever the party line was about Mayo at that time, the fact is he was the one who put the NOTS materials together with LRH and he did not need any outside help in getting the tech applied standardly after he escaped from Gilman.
We were all trained to run this tech BEFORE Robin showed up with the materials. The whole thing has been turned around and against David unjustly, to make him look like the bad guy.
Love, Mary
Nothing ‘masked’ about anything I’ve ever said, Marty. As I told you before, I absolutely wish you well along your personal path. However, in your life you have hurt a very great number of people, both directly and indirectly. Accordingly you have a great deal of ‘bad karma’ for which to make up. [Hint: you might want to take another look at those Ethics Formulae.]
Continuing Hubbard’s & Miscavige’s past slanders of David Mayo isn’t going to help either your cause or your self.
RJ and Alan, thanks. OK, so now I know we were not meant to get it, and I really should stop using logic here, I *finally* get it. 😀
For the purposes of the court case – Mayo did not do it. For the purposes of the paying public, he did do it. Both at the same time.
Classic Orwellian Double-Think, to serve a Machiavellian motive. That, I get.
So, Mayo ended up as a scapegoat both in court, and with the field. That’s pretty nasty, no wonder he went off wind-surfing.
Alan, I really appreciate your perspective from the SA experience. Our remoteness meant that we really all were in the dark, although the internet has happily changed that now for anyone who has the courage to look. CT was even more remote than Pretoria, Johannesburg was where most of the action was at, and Pretoria was closer to Jhb., but still, there was so much that was kept from us all.
RJ – thanks, you are right, I found that in the short time I was there – you were never meant to really win or progress, always, there was something that came up that diverted you from doing something what you were there to do – my purpose back then was as simple as training to become an auditor, and now I understand that all the diversions and dramas and so on were actually designed to stop that.
Thanks for your patience and understanding, I have it now. 🙂
Splog,
I usually agree with much of what you post except this which I must respectfully disagree.
There is no way that Mayo is going to save us from ourselves.
The idea of not only making him into some kinda of saint but now turning him into messiah of some kind I find odious.
And makes me think you didn’t read Marty’s most recent post on Mayo.
The guy signed up with Gerbode and started Meta Psychology before that he started the AAC which was disbanded after it had directly attacked the Complex by sending in agents to infiltrate the organizations and steal meters and documents.
Not only that but they ran an effective Black Propaganda campaign not only against management but against Ron as well.
Is this someone you want “saving” Scientology?
Yes he was a good C/S at one time especially when his C/Sing was being side checked by the Ol’man but when he was assigned to supervise the piloting of the HRD he literally screwed the pooch.
Not only did he try to claim that the RD would handle any case phenomena known to man or beast including problems with drugs.
I mean I had to beg the C/S I was auditing under to please, please, please!
Allow me to put this PC on a drug rundown because he ain’t ever going to make it through Precept 3 without one!
But he had the auditors running every frickin’ question in the booklet (at that time the auditing commands were in a booklet) whether they read or not!
He ordered this despite the fact that HCOBs prohibited running “Unreading Questions and Items” had existed since the late 60’s and early 70’s.
But that isn’t all.
In order to get many PCs and yes Pre OTs many who were in the Non Interference Zone despite C/S Series 73 through the RD who where “inexplicably” and inextricably *bogged* he began mixing major RD actions with repair of these cases such as ordering a HC out point plus point list and a Fixated Person handling straight out of the Introspection RD!
Despite what the Ol’man said about the “Integrity of the RD”.
At this point many of us who were auditing at the time figured DM was heading to Squirrelsville breaking all legal speed limits!
So we started writing him up.
I myself sent a letter to the Ol’man using SO #1 informing him about Dave and many of the C/Ses he “trained” …er..unique C/Sing “style”.
You’d think Ron would have pounced down Dave’s throat for all the out tech he was perpetrating.
But it took almost a year after the whole HRD fiasco to get bushy tailed Dave off C/Sing lines and replace him with long haired wild man Ray.
Exit Dave.
Goodbye and good riddance!
So no.
David Mayo didn’t just commit “a couple of big overts”.
He was working on taking the tech into uncharted territory.
Personally I don’t know why he snapped or even care why he snapped.
The only thing I know from my *own* personal observation was that he snapped!
Now maybe the coup that took over didn’t handle him correctly.
And yes maybe he could have been salvaged if they themselves had a applied standard tech and ethics.
Then again he might have asserted his self rightness anyway as Ron’s “chosen one” or something and struck out on his own with the “Church of the New Civilization” anyway and hooked up with Robin Hood and his Merry Band of Thieves who crashed AOSH and the space cadets from Sector 9.
Who knows?
But in my books the guy ain’t no frickin’ hero.
HE’S A FRICKIN’ SQUIRREL!!!!!!
Just like David Miscavige.
Only worse because he knew better!
He was the one who opened the door to all the abuses of the tech that followed and they still haven’t gotten the Organization running back on KSW since.
RJ .
Who are you to judge Bill Robertson against DM, Your mad I find that offensive and generalized discrediting and invalidating and utter rubbish .
http://www.studytech.org/study_tech3.php
“b. WHERE DOES STUDY TECH COME FROM?
The contents of the Study Tech books are taken directly from Scientology scriptures published over a period of about twenty years between approximately 1960 and 1980. Not all of the material is reproduced in exactly the same form in the Scientology and Applied Scholastics versions. A number of significant changes have been made. Hubbard’s rambling lectures have virtually been rewritten, although their underlying message remains the same. Some of the wording of original Scientology materials has been modified, presumably to make it more readable to a non-Scientologist audience. All mention of Scientology has systematically been removed, although some Scientology jargon still remains. But despite these modifications, much of the text remains close to the original Scientology versions in word or spirit. Each chapter of the Basic Study Manual is drawn from one or more original Scientology works, often retaining the same or an abbreviated version of the titles.
A side-by-side comparison of extracts from seven of the Basic Study Manual’s eight chapters illustrates the similarities:”
PJ.
Personal views about some one and openly slagging a person off in such a manner and making evaluations with such gross words is insulting and unethical. I don’t think thats ok for such disgusting comments made on a Blog that’s surpose to be supportive towards getting people to know whats available and truthful information and postive views I disagree to spread ones personal views and make slanderess remarks on such a person or persons/ without defense by that person who is no longer here to defend himself. I don’t know what you read, Where you read what . Sounds to me Hearsay, Gossip , and Slanderess at that but it’s UnWelcome to read and offensive and unfactually wrong .The guy died a long while ago and what he did whilst around was of great Value . I don’t think your able to be a valid judge in this or to make evaluations like you wrote
Can we show some respect Please for the dead.
Yep – the Peter Principal is not Standard Tech – but it is useful. Not everyone can learn to be an effective manager or effective sales VP, but people sure can be promoted there. In the High Tech world, it happens all the time. Great programmer gets promoted to Team Lead and falls on his face. He is most effective being a programmer, but “staff enhancement” and “career advancement” indicate that he should advance up the ladder. And so he does, right out the door, because he loves computers but can’t abide people.
Thanks for this Marty. What you just said is sane. Sane is good.
Much as you recently did with your post on Ser facs. What you had to say on that was totally struck home to me in October 1970 at Toronto…and has still been a big part of what I clear up with every single person I have done grades on for the last 41 years. I have met very few auditors who ever got that…so we REALY clear that on all who come to our Center. How else can an auditor honestly handle Ser Facs if he does not understand them…or have a completed Grade4.
On Mayo I still do not see the why for this discusion. Never met anyone since I left the RTC in 1986 who thought he was God or Source, so see no need for that. No need to Op Term him or justify what you did to him back then, so let us all move on. Otherwise, keep on keeping on.
Cheers,
Frank Davis
(the Indiana one not the Florida or New York one.)
Sort of like a Date/Locate right ?
Good site Patricia
Huh? I think I was at every event Miscavige did prior to 2007 and don’t recall this datum?
Karen, Thank you so much for writing this first hand account. It was a huge breakthrough for me when I typed David Mayo into my search engine. I had accepted that this man was a monster and I didn’t even know what he looked like!! I have now read the 2 AAC journals that I could find online and listened to his wonderful Sunday talks. Very theta and very sane. It seemed to me that alot of good was happening in the independent field under David Mayo. There was just too much suppression from the church. I don’t have the details of what he said in court. And it is horrible if he turned on LRH. But, somehow I still have a huge amount of ARC for the man. And I think that is what Marty is seeing on the blog. Those that knew him or have read or listened to him have alot of ARC for him. I hope you will call him. I’m sure he will understand. I wish we do hear from him again before he’s gone this life time. He is a Class Xll and was Senior C/S. Worked directly with LRH! He is one of us ! Wrongdoing can be confronted , handled and forgiven. I hope he knows about the amount of love there is out here for him.
Thanks Janis.
This is not such a clear cut issue. In the case of a mistreated elderly person, (such as Heber Jentzsch), the law states that mandated reporters must file a report of such instances within 24 hours and if confirmed, the elderly person MUST be removed from the situation even if the person WISHES to stay. Self-determinism has limits. Same of course in the case of minors.
For the mentally ill, they can force incarceration for 72 hours with a “5150 psychiatric hold”.
Even as a Libertarian, I find these are reasonable actions.
Although most of us Wogs would doubt the saneness of someone wishing to be in the RPF, I can see that the level of brainwashing could cause someone to respond that way. It’s important to determine at this point if the cause for the RPF assignment is justified. Are we sending people to the RPF because they “Rock Slammed” on the e-meter? Are these rock slams coincident with the need for renovation workers at an ideal org? Was the assignment caused because a Sea Org staff wanted to alert management about illegal activities? Was the staff person alerting management about squirreling the tech?
I doubt I could find a sane reason for someone to want to be treated in such a way. In fact, I would prefer for someone to be put in a safe 72 hour psychiatric hold, so then can take a few days to come to their senses.
So in conclusion, for normal adults, I would deny them the RPF for 72 hours and provide them with good advice from exes, critics and psychologists.
Hi Frank. Thanks for weighing in.
Ralph – Hi!!
You are wrong – Jon was not aware of the plot before the event. He was just as surprised as me when the packs ended up in EG.
I wasn’t aware that you were party to any of the events you talk about. Correct me if I am wrong.
I was close to Jon and he was a true influence. Jon took it on himself to collect as much information as he could and to communicate it. As such he interviewed many many people. However he wasn’t responsible for everything that went on.
I think we all agreed the materials should be broadly distributed as a safeguard to their permanent “release”. I don’t recollect any argument or persuasion regarding that.
Neither Ron Lawley, Morag Bellmain (or her partner Steve Bisbey) or Robin Scott were/are weak or feeble people and they were quite capable of hatching the plot all by themselves! David Mayo was not aware of it before the fact and as far as I know no one else was either.
Whatever people here think of Robin Scott I have always found him an honourable man. After all when the cof$ tried to bribe him to implicate me in the event and he refused the bribe. He was asked to say that I had couriered the NOTs packs to David Mayo. They offered him a reduced time in prison. I for one do respect Robin Scott regardless of the other matter he was involved in. I don’t necessarily condemn anyone for growing high grade cannabis for medical purposes or any other purpose. There is so much contrary information regarding cannabis that I won’t make up my mind about it yet.
Steve Bisbey DID take a set of packs to David Mayo but Steve told me personally that Mayo refused to accept them, he wouldn’t allow them onto the premises. Steve said he left the packs “with someone” else in California.
Harvey Haber had always insisted that no one was to do anything illegal – that it wasn’t worth it.
With regard to others here condemning Mayo for giving up the struggle and taking the money and running. Well Ralph you are the ONLY person I know of out of the hundred (if not thousands) who left in the 80’s who is still involved with scientology.
That is because the rest of us have all moved on – scientology stopped being a factor in our lives once we had decompressed. Maybe that happened to Mayo as well?
Just to straighten a bit of the “record”.
regards
Martin Ruston
Google translate says: “Hello Marty, our goals are much higher. You are the leader of all of us who aspire to a real Scientology. Mayo probably knew that DM was an impostor crazy but did not know how to react and behave x Scientology save and wrong.“
Oops – ignore my post as CD already did it…
Michael, say it isn’t so!
All this time I’ve believed that when I went Clear, I could make more and better crazies whenever I wanted to. Isn’t that one of the “abilities gained”?
With the full Angelic chorus singing in the background.
Double huh
RJ,
It seems to me this could have been his “turning point”, if he had much ego at all invested in his position that he was ousted from. Perhaps he could not face up to his own acts. He possibly wasn’t handled very well, either, adding injury to insult.
That period of time, the early 1980s, is still a very murky time to me. Several people I had met in the 1970s became “disaffected” and left, some were Declared first, some afterwards. All I know is that in some way they were just “not with the program” that was coming down at that time.
What comes to mind is that they were going off and starting their own “schools”, much in the way Sufis did for hundreds of years. Perhaps in the world of the 20th century, this was inappropriate. I don’t know.
RJ,
I don’t think there is much comparison between Robertson and Miscavage, simply because from what I’ve heard, the Ron’s Orgs have kept the Bridge intact and standard right on up through OTIII.
Capt.Bill may have gone off on a tangent, but I tend to believe he was loyal to LRH and that’s why they have maintained the LRH bridge at the lower levels through Clear and OTIII as far as I know(from reading).
That’s not what DM has done.
Jonathon,
Are you sure he was talking about NOTs or NED?
I mean I give bushy tailed Skippy all that much credit for smarts but I don’t even believe he’s that stupid.
This may or not be true about the Peter Principle but I hope that you don’t decide to use it as an auditing technique.
That is clever/funny. It’s the populist view of “management” in the ‘wog world’ too.
I read Dilbert religiously every week.
That’s pretty hypocritical coming from you hadley dear.
Actually I liked Cap’n Bill I thought he was a real nice guy and I would trade him for any of the people who took over after him.
But come on!
Have you actually looked over what Excalibur consists of.
But hey if you want to believe that we have been taken over by Marcab Confederacy then you can go on believing it for all I care.
Gee Anon you’re reading like some of the GO people I used to know 😉
Valkov,
Nah, pure propaganda. Going clear has nothing on being nuts. If I were clear across the dynamics, I would know that I was mocking up my crazies and then they would only be “pretend” friends. (Not that there’s anything wrong with pretend friends. Gasp! I don’t want to be anti-religious by suggesting there might be a lot of pretend friends in a certain church I know of.)
But back to clearness: if I don’t know I’m mocking these things up, then they’re “real” friends–allies I can count on. For example, if I’m really, really, really sick, I can count on one of my allies to hold me tenderly and tell me how much they love me. Ahhhhh! It’s wonderful. That’s one of the reasons I just love being sick–so my allies will hold me lovingly and let me know how important I am.
It’s good to feel important.
What’s a little throwing up every morning when you can count on your friends? It’s worth the sacrifices. After all, they would do anything for me. All I have to do is stay right there and be calm. It’s like perpetual serenity of beingness.
Don’t you see? It makes perfect sense.
We never met. Were you in Montreal (Canada) region last summer?
Regarding the ex-judge’s alleged alcoholism, since you are not forthright on how you got that information, I will ask directly: Did you get that information from intelligence operations run by the Church of Scientology at the time?
Any Reactions ?
https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2011/04/12/deconstructing-the-mayo-myth/#comment-117653
Patricia | April 13, 2011 at 8:17 pm | Reply
I was there when David Mayo was being attacked by the church for using the technology outside their control. I was there when Robin Scott came to offer him the materials they took from AODK. I was there when David refused their offer of those materials because he had in fact written them. He told them thanks, but he did not need them. We saw this with our own eyes at the time it happened. David Mayo’s name was at the bottom of all the issues when NOTS came out. He was the one who put it all together with LRH in order to run them on LRH.
Whatever the lawyers told the people who hired them, in the church at that time, whatever the party line was about Mayo at that time, the fact is he was the one who put the NOTS materials together with LRH and he did not need any outside help in getting the tech applied standardly after he escaped from Gilman.
We were all trained to run this tech BEFORE Robin showed up with the materials. The whole thing has been turned around and against David unjustly, to make him look like the bad guy.
Love, Mary
Marty ? Mike ? reply ?
Yes, who is saying this and what is she delivering?
RJ,
A close approximation of what DM said was: Planetary clearing consists of getting everyone up to and through New OT VII, Solo NOTs.
This makes sense in the context of confidential data from one of the Class XII lectures.
Patricia Krenik ?http://community.freezone-tech.info/members/elma/
http://the-scientologist.com/patkrenik.shtml
Pat is a long time scientologist who has been around since the 1950s when Ron was around.
Patricia Krenik participated during the early formative years of Dianetics and Scientology. Born in the West Coast of Washington State, US of A in 1930, she graduated Vashon High School in 1947 and started her first employment as a long distance telephone operator for “Ma Bell”. Soon after that she began raising a family and is the mother of eleven children and numerous grandchildren and great grandchildren.
After reading Dianetics, the Modern Science of Mental Health in 1951 she co-audited the books and bulletins as they came out. In 1954 she challenged the HCA test and passed, and began to help establish churches in Bremerton and Seattle. She trained under LRH in 1958 completing the “Clearing ACC” to return to WA as one of the first acknowledged Clears. She and her then husband, Ron Arnold, established and ran a franchise (mission) for the following two years.
Moving to Los Angeles in 1968 in the years following she graduated the SHSBC, the O.E.C, did the advanced solo levels and then the
Ethics Specialist Course. She held the Ethics Officer post at L.A. Org and later joined the Sea Org for a short time.
As a writer, Pat Krenik had her own column for four years in Mail Profits Magazine. As a “freezone” Scientologist she is the author of “Scientology vs. Scientology” and is now residing in the small town of Elma, WA where she and her husband, Raymond J. Krenik, Jr. continue to deliver auditing and training.
then why did she sign the post, Mary?
That indicates Mayo either already had a copy of the LRH-authorized NOTS from some other source, or he re-wrote them afterwards. Although its conceivable that Mayo may have remembered the original LRH-instruct, tape-extracted write-up into HCOBs, as well as the auditing procedure, I don’t see anything here that clearly shows he was using the LRH authorized NOTS procedure based on those HCOBs.
That begs the question whether the NOTS delivered were per standard LRH issue, since an earlier poster on this thread stated that Mayo had some disagreement with the inclusion of some OT-3 steps.
Aside for legal reasons being potentially implicated in the theft of the materials, why wouldn’t Mayo minimally want to compare Robin Scott NOTS to make sure nothing was omitted?
Again, I see nothing here that clearly demonstrates that Mayo had any hand in the development of the NOTS aside from assisting LRH.
“put together” to mean write and issue HCOBs based on the taped instructions LRH made. That has already been mentioned by several posters on this blog.
Yes, and it looks like this —> LRH:dm:kjm
I would like to see and compare those materials.
The other posts she signs with Pat but links to the same website that is Admined by Silvia: http://community.freezone-tech.info/members/admin/
Mary is a friend of Pat posting on her computer maybe ?
Mary Mayo ?
Other post. If it was not a friend than the IP adress from where it is sent should differ I think.
https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2011/04/12/deconstructing-the-mayo-myth/#comment-117233
BUT I Have her, I know it ! Mary Freeman !
http://www.freezoneauditors.org/auditor/profile/13/
Franklin and Mary Freeman
Mary came into Scn at the NY Org in the 60’s and immediately went on staff.
She trained to Class IV at FCDC and returned to NY staff where she held various Tech positions such as Auditor, Review Auditor, Qual Sec Day and Tech Sec Fdn.
She went to St. Hill in England where she did the Saint Hill Special Briefing Course and Class VII Course and Internship. From there she attended the first AO on the flagship under LRH, and then continued her OT levels to OT VI at AOUK in Edinburgh, Scotland.
From there she was sent to the flagship in Corfu, Greece to do the first Class VIII Course directly under LRH. It was there that Ron said that a Class VIII can put Ethics in anywhere on the planet, and Mary took that pretty literally.
After that she was the first Class VIII C/S of the NY Org, and later CCNY, and CCLA. She also did the HSST (Class VIII Permanent C/S Course) at AOLA.
At ASHO she was the Power and Power repair auditor, and at AOLA she was an OT Review auditor where she also delivered OT VII.
At Flag in Clearwater she did other courses including the Ethics Specialist Course.
After resigning from the church in 1983, she studied and audited NOTS under David Mayo.
Meanwhile, Mary specialized and expanded on the Ethics Condtions, as they apply personally to the first dynamic, and developed a comprehensive Ethics Program, which she still delivers on a regular basis.
********************
Franklin also did the first Class VIII Course, as well as the first Data Series/Evaluator course under LRH. He worked directly for Ron on the ship and on Sea Org missions, and was highly commended for his successful results. He was the first permanent Class VIII.
Franklin also helped LRH establish the Land Base in Clearwater, Florida. He was Sr. C/S at AOLA, held the position of Qual Sec, Flag Service Org in Clearwater, as well as Diana Hubbard’s personal auditor.
Besides auditing and C/Sing all levels, Franklin specializes in training auditors, both solo and professional.
Hello Mary Freeman friend of Pat Krenik
http://www.freezoneauditors.org/auditor/profile/13/
So the testimony defending Mayo was posted in the name of someone using another person’s identity?
Great detective work CD. You are a real asset.
Either that or Mary (Freeman) friend of Pat Krenik , who both walked out in 83 following David Mayo posted it on her friends computer.
Isn’t unusual
“This is Mike Rinder posting on Marty’s Computer”
But, it did not state that. My case has been rested. I’m done with this thread.
Francois wrote: “Even as a Libertarian, I find these are reasonable actions. Although most of us Wogs would doubt the saneness of someone wishing to be in the RPF, I can see that the level of brainwashing could cause someone to respond that way. It’s important to determine at this point if the cause for the RPF assignment is justified.”
As a Libertarian myself, I would question the use of “wog” value systems to determine what is or what is not justified. What sounds unjust to you might seem almost obvious to others when viewed from a different value system.
I think we can both agree that Roman Catholic priests shouldn’t molest children, but what of these priests or monks who self-flagellate themselves? If a monk was ordered to whip himself or go without food as a penalty for talking or whatever, it sounds unjust to outsiders while making sense to those who have agreed to that system.
You should consider the Sea Org comparable to a LARP (Live Action Role-Playing Game) with its own rules, penalties and rewards.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larp
“A live action role-playing game (LARP) is a form of role-playing game where the participants physically act out their characters’ actions. The players pursue goals within a fictional setting represented by the real world, while interacting with each other in character.”
No I guess we didn’t meet. My basis for that statement was my observation over many, many painful hours of having to observe him in “hearings.”
RJ,
OK, I hear you. Sounds like you are truly pissed off and if I triggered that, then for that I apologize.
I’m not a Tech trained person to any great degree, I don’t audit (I’m not very good at it), but you are. If you saw and observed Mayo do things that fucked up the subject greatly, then so be it. I wasn’t there and I’m in no position to comment.
I never said that Mayo would save Scientology – I said he could (as in was able to) do doubt and make it all right. Not the subject, not save it, not come back as the second coming. Just fix his own universe, his own screw ups. I still believe he is able to do that if he chooses – tech terminals never stop being tech terminals, right?
Several have posted along the lines of if Mayo showed up and genuinely wanted to apply tech to his life, few here would deny him any aid he needs to do that, the reference being of course “Greatness”. I agree with that.
“A few overts”. That was flippant, perhaps too flippant. I wanted to focus on my viewpoint that Mayo could turn himself around but I doubt Miscavige will ever come anywhere close.
That’s all I meant.
Now, there’s a great new blog post ” L Ron Hubbard In Perspective”. Sounds like a great topic, and no doubt I’ll meet you over there.
Marty, Some detective work? His line of thinking on this is questionable. It seems to me that Cat Daddy is guessing it is Mary Freeman. And that the poster “Patricia ” he implied is Patricia Krenik is the originating assumption, as well. Many posters do so here are anonymously, so in itself the mistake in signing a different name than the nic name shouldnot invalidate the whole comment.
I also want to make clear that I am not the author of Patricia’s post 🙂
I daresay Marty allowed that just for me to comment on 🙂
I must admit that I am a little proud to be one of those who did not “move on”.
Maybe you and Mayo decompressed and got splattered all over the universe.
I am not a mushroom! Don’t try to feed me bullshit.
Robin Scott made half a million out of his altruistic desire to provide medical grade Cannabis to needy souls.
As Nancy Many pointed out David didn’t accept then but Allen B. did.
Please post some more! I haven’t laughed so much in months.
Val,
Personally I never thought the whole transition to new management and the corporate restructuring that followed helped the scene at all.
Too much change too fast causes ARCxs and this is what in my opinion happened.
Bill Franks as ED Int at the time tried to ameliorate the adverse reactions to all of this by having Orgs and Missions do the 3rd D Engram handling as given in the book Notes on the Lectures.
And Ron had just issued a General Amnesty.
These actions seemed successful at the time in handling a lot of BPC.
Then all of sudden these actions were discontinued and heavy ethics came in.
I remember going to the GO Office which was a Continental AG to get my PC who was a B1 staffer and finding that the door to their office had literally been kicked in and there were GODs (GO Directives) which were usually locked in cabinets scattered all over the place like confetti.
My PC obviously wasn’t there and there was only one GO staffer there who told me the story of how some CMO led by Kerry Gleason had kicked in the doors at GOWW and that similar raids had been carried out by other CMO Missionares in all other Cont Offices.
At that point things were beginning to look pretty surreal.
After that there was a whole ream of EOs issued labeling practically everybody and their dog “SP” including Jon Horwich which I found somewhat *unbelievable* and of course David Mayo which seemed to indicate somewhat but not entirely and Jane Kember which totally indicated since it was her stupid actions that caused Mary Sue to end up doing hard time.
Anyway it looked like the new management was involved in a major skeet shooting festival and DM (as we used to call him back then) was just one of the assortment and variety of clay pigeons.
Me I didn’t have anything against Mayo being declared since I was probably one of the people who hammered a nail in the big guy’s coffin.
But there were quite a number of people who were upset by all this including my 2D.
Needless to say I kept my possible involvement in all this under wraps until she wrote the Ol’man who replied in a very nice letter that seemed to handle any BPC.
Anyway I had other friends who were not quite as understanding about all this actually jump ship and join Mayo who at the time was in major victim mode about how he’d been mistreated etc etc.
Who unofficially called themselves the “Scientology Underground”.
As far as I was concerned the guy was just motivating and I really didn’t want to have anything to do with the Squirrelfest that followed.
So I kept my head down and stayed away from the fray and the turbulence and locked myself in an auditing room with a variety of PCs until I arrived at ASHO where an old friend of mine happened to be the RTC Rep there who recruited me onto a very sensitive project at the time known as the “Squirrel Busters”.
We had a cute logo at the time which included a picture of a Squirrel with the international circle and diagonal imposed over it.
Our main technical objective was basically to recover any one who had gone over to AAC.
While the GO’s or what was left of it after the purge was to shut down the AAC.
Anyway we were quite successful in both objectives and the RTC Rep called all of us who worked on the ‘Squirrel Buster Project’ into the Quad in ASHO and told us that the AAC was history.
Anyway I think this was in late ’84 or something like that and as far as I know after that Mayo vanished somewhere into obscurity.
And that would have probably been the end of it until OSA came on the scene sometime later and started cleaning up a clean by continuing to go after Mayo who was now somewhere in South America and with the help of their “friends” in InterPol tried unsuccessfully to get him busted for drug smuggling.
Probably until then Mayo would have died a forgotten man.
Just another guy who started a another Squirrel group like all the other Squirrel groups and other Splinter groups that had been started and faded into the Scientology’s historical abyss.
Names only known by only a few like The Foundation FKA The Process Church (who by the way served damn good coffee in their Coffee Houses and whose uniforms are eerily similar to one’s being promoted for these “Ideal Orgs”) Primal Scream, Dianology, Amprinistics, EST AKA Landmark, E-Therapy etc, etc.
However thanks to OSA’s brilliant handling they managed to turn Mayo into a Martyr and the rest is history or should have been.
Since we are on the subject of historical parallels Val.
Oh sure there are probably earlier similars all down the track but really it really doesn’t do much for me making these comparisons.
Because I’m more interested in viewing the incident in Present Time as in what’s happening now.
And what I see happening now is that there is a lot of charge on this subject of Mayo.
I mean the guy is one hot item!
What they’d probably call in the old days a Reliable Item or RI.
You know when Marty posted these two posts I figured maybe 300 comments max yet they’ve hit probably over 600 so far!
Also some interesting ones that indicate if you are against poor DM1 I’ll call him then you must be supporting DM2.
Or that by supporting DM1 you are causing an effective blow to DM2 whatever.
Talk about a GPM!
Or simple two valued “logic”!
What about those of us who support neither of them and consider them both god damn squirrels?
I think the problem is a misinterpretation of the doubt formula.
In order to do a doubt formula correctly you have to chose sides after wavering from the side you originally belonged to which is probably why it is placed below liability.
However what if you never wavered?
What happens that instead of *you* personally wavering the group you belonged to wavered instead?
In other words instead of you going into a lower condition.
The group that you were once part of went into a lower condition basically leaving you stranded metaphorically on the solid rock known as *standard tech*.
I think that is what has happened to a lot of us out here and I think many of us have falsely assigned ourselves a condition of doubt when we were never in doubt to begin with.
Anyway I think it’s more interesting concept to consider in relation to what’s been going on instead of hoary historical parallels.
At least to me.
As far as Mayo is concerned he has basically turned into an Op Term which is basically a synthetic beingness used to explain or justify their inability to *deliver standard tech*.
They can explain away all they’re failures by telling the PC or Pre OT Mayoized version of the tech and that they’re going to “correct” it and of course when that fails they’ll say that Mayo’s influence was more insidious than they thought etc ad nauseam.
It’s nice when you have someone to blame meaning you don’t have to take any responsibility yourself for you own screw ups.
Whether it be DM1, DM2, the evil psyches or the CIA.
Sure Ron blamed real enemies at times who were actually attacking the Church at one time.
But they happened to be real terminals with real power.
Now I think they’ve achieved their objective which was to knock out the Church of Scientology.
Personally I don’t even think they’re interested in the independence movement because of their natural fixation on groups.
I think with the occasional foray by the incompetents at OSA and their hired PIs that much of the trouble we’re creating ourselves.
Anyway I hope I didn’t bore you with all this meandering Val but I got on a roll.
🙂
RJ — someday you and me gonna sit down and compare notes. I dont want to start a whole back and forth about this, but just to let you know, I was the in charge of the CMO Mission to GOWW when the “GO Takeover” took place. Kerry Gleeson was not there. I was recalled some while into the Mission when it was discovered that David Gaiman (Guardian) had been secretly speaking to Mary Sue in LA from home at nite. I was considered to have failed the Mission because I didnt know this. I was replaced by Jens Bogvad.
I was then CO OSA US during the “Squirrel Busting” times and was charged by Vicki Aznaran (then Inspector General RTC) with running all those activities (Red Van Dyk and others were used to brief public, though I dealt directly with 2 or 3 public directly, including Jim Jackson) and coordinated with Alan Cartwright and Greg Ryerson in RTC who were running “Trojan Horse” (TH — Bob Mithoff) to collect data on infringements and stir up 3P within the AAC.
Mayo was not going away even after the AAC closed (and he took all the APs they had — can’t remember how much it was) as the RTC v. Mayo lawsuit was still ongoing. It went on for years and kept Mayo in the “limelight” so to speak, even after the AAC itself shut down.
There is a lot of revisionist history that has been circulated — Mayo was terrified of being directly implicated in the theft of the documents from AOSHEU and told everyone he wanted nothing to do with them. But that was the public story. Secretly, he had copies and in fact copied them (anyone who compared AAC Bulletin 1 with NOTs Series 1, and AAC 2 with NOTs 2 saw they were virtually identical. I dont care how good someone’s memory is, that is NOT done from memory. He tried to maintain in court that he didnt have the stolen documents either — that is why there was a finding by the judge that he was not credible).
Just to fill in a little more data.
As I said, one day its going to be a LONG conversation.
Thanks Mike,
Really I was pretty much in the trenches during the whole Squirrel Busters episode.
My direct senior was Red Van Dyke.
Personally I thought it was the GO who handled covert ops because I don’t recall the switch to OSA being until ’85 during the Christoferson thing.
Anyway thanks for filling in the blanks Mike.
And yes we should have a long talk because I think it would be fun aside from being historical.
Sorry Allan,
Didn’t mean to take my frustrations out on you.
Never realized how much charge I had on Mayo after all this time.
However your right if an amnesty was declared I’d welcome Mayo back with open arms.
Why hold a grudge?
I’d even say the same about DM2 as well.
Since the next topic is Ron.
Did you know that he even included the FDA as forgiven in his first amnesty?
Sorta shows what a big being the Ol’man was or still is on that planet a galaxy away he writes about in ‘Scientology, Clear Procedure’.
Ml
Robin AKA RJ
The person claims to have been there.
Thanks for this data. It’s good to have an actual eye-witness account rather than rumor or legend.
RJ .
Thanks for your clarification on the likeing of Capt Bill . I don’t think I was Hypocritical as you call it .
The rest is not open for discussion, but as a unfair insult got made on Capt Bill I spoke end of story here and obvilously you made your view clear.
Robin,
No worries, I have similar stuff going on in my own field too, and outsiders often wonder what I’m getting all uptight about 🙂
But about DM2. I’ve had opportunities to practice “What Is Greatness” quite a lot over the last 12 years, and I actually surprised myself how easy it was (mostly). For people who screw up gloriously because they got in too deep or were led down the wrong path or anything else that basically good people get up to in this world – granting them ARC is easy, no matter how deep the cut went at the time.
But vicious deliberate actions that were planned all along, I have a problem with those, just can’t seem to apply Greatness to them. If you can see yourself forgiving DM2 and letting him make amends, then you’re the bigger man here.
It must be an auditor thing.
Thanks for the link to this Great Auditor, C/S.
I wouldn’t know but no problemo.
No need to go to the CO$
Auditors everywhere !
http://www.freezoneauditors.org/home/
Hi Marty, looks like you pulled this post after allowing it through.
Stupidly I unwittingly posted it twice in the same comment.
Perhaps you’ll let this go though as a single post.
MARTY said:-
“Well, over the past couple months I have had some bedraggled souls wind up on my doorstep who have been mauled by old-timer squirrels. I repaired them, and will continue to do so as needed. But, it is apparent to me that a line needs to be drawn. Squirrels leave the church seeking freedom to do whatever hair-brained scheme their banks feed them. Independents leave the church seeking freedom to practice standard tech.”
I’m glad you’ve helped such people and continue to do so. Also I’ve been supportive of you and just about the only person defending you on ESMB. Still am supportive.
However I have several bones to pick with you.
When I met I commented that our philosophy is one which allows for redemption.
You need to do a bit more to fully gain redemption.
First re your comment above, its pointlessly divisive. The
” Freezone” was out there delivering tech outside COS before you came to the net.
Before you started your blog you asked me if I knew some auditors as you couldn’t handle all the traffic. I referred you to Ken Urquhart and Trey Lotz.
Here is an incomplete list of Freezoners who were delivering before you were on the net and many while you were still in COS, and who have come out on your forum or were praised by you or post here at least more than a couple of posts.
Ken Urquhart
Trey Lotz
Chris Black
Pat Krenik
Ralph Hilton
Mary Freeman
Frankie Freeman
Les Warren
Anita Warren
Roy Selby
Then some who came out on this blog and are now C/Sing for
Freezone Groups.
Glen Samuels Senior C/S for Pat and Ray Krenik and Roy Selby, and maybe others.
Dan Koon C/S for Freezoners in his neck of the woods.
Helen Chen and Partner [ Mat Pesch?] anyway using Trey lots as an auditor and maybe other things.
You calling them squirrel?
You castigate Mayo for accepting a settlement and you were the main person in charge of the legal actions against him. Ten years worth you admitted.
You castigate him for requesting LRH testify. His testimony would clearly be
important re the issues involved. You castigate him for abandoning the tech. Yet
that was the gag clause forced on him by COS. You being instrumental.
You catergorise Gerbode as a ” sugar daddy”. It happens he and family are wealthy enough to stand up to a decade of COS policy ” use the law to Harrass”. He was an auditor with Mayo, delivering tech very successfully. And you took part in stopping that.
Why do you wish to diminish him now? Mayo was LRHs most trusted tech terminal.
Why on earth is it important whatever the respective inputs of LRH and Mayo were re NOTs.
The legal action against Mayo was money motivated and the COS attacked him long before matters came to court.
Mike you said:-
” he did something inexcusable. He took money to shut up and go away. If he was truly the champion of standard tech, he would NEVER have done that. He was more interested in wind-surfing, and he had a sugar daddy that had supported him for years.”
So why was he legally harrassed for a decade by COS [ not sure of your part in this] for delivering tech?
In the end, after a decade it was Gerbode who pulled the plug on further legal nonsense and Mayo was not able to continue litigation.
You said:-
“Yet, after a couple of years, he walked away to windsurf.”
Court documents go on to at least 1994 re the court action, and I believe later.
His placing on the running program was around 1982-3. He was told by DM he wouldn’t leave it alive.
Now I have a request from someone in Arkensas who needs an Int rundown.
Anyone anywhere near who can deliver?
Far more serious things happened in the SO.
Dear marty,
Thank you for putting out the facts about the orgin of NOTs: that it was the work of LRH with minimal assistance (essentially only as a compiler and publisher)
by David Mayo.
In recent years, I have pushed that exact point across in some of the most obtuse Freezone Corners, only to be recited in a circuitous refrain that
“the Big bad Mayo created NOTs out of his own warped Mind”, some even added that “NOTs Kills”, oblivious of the facts that per LRH, PTSness is what causes
illness (and also that their own death rate on their Squirrel Rundowns and processes were higher than on NOTs – even the inventor of these weird processes died
almost 20 years younger than LRH did).
Having trained as a NOTs auditor at Flag in 1979, I attended a number of “Tech staff only” briefing held by David Mayo during his various visits to the Flag Land Base,
while he was Snr CS int.
Every single one of those briefing was ENTIRELY CONSISTENT with what Marty related about David Mayo participation in the development of NOTs.
In fact David, repeatedly described his awe at the time about discoveries eclipsing each day the one from the night before. never did he once, professed having
developped a technique or even perfected it.
In fact during these briefing, I got the impression that David Mayo was describing himself as a sort of sidekick to LRH for the whole NOTs affair.
Obviously, facing legal threats and harassment from RTC and Jesse Prince, my view is that he must have resorted to desperate means to defend himself,
and after too many blow belows the belt started to answer like a desperate man would.
I am not the kind of perspon who summarily judge another and gleefully cast a stone at him, so I am more kind toward him that you are.
One final question, I would like answered Marty, since, contrarily to me, you seem to know a great deal about the court cases on David Mayo,
as I have been presented the following objection by hard-core Freezone Elements that the “PROOF LRH DID NOT WRITE NOTs” was that when challenged in court
the Church allegedly was “unable to produce the originals”. This was viewed by those hard-core elements as the Keystone in their theory about the origin of
NOTs.
It is my hope that once this question is answered, I will be able to contribute to shining the truth in some very dark Free Zone corners.
I totally understand Allan.
The reason is probably I never had that much track on DM2.
I might put him on a C/S 79 but probably not an S&D.
Aside from that there is what Ron says in the 3 May PL about SPs:
(Begin Fair Use)
“Even in a PTS (potential trouble source) person, there must have been out-ethics conduct toward the suppressive personality he or she is connected with for the person to have become PTS in the first place.”
(End Fair Use)
I guess that would include overts as well and I guess the biggest overt I committed against DM1 was writing him up and him ending up where he was.
I.e. running around a tree for 15 hours a day in the hot desert sun and in some way contributing to his demise as Snr C/S Int.
Not that I wouldn’t have done it again in DM2 case but I never got lucky in that regard 😉
Anyway that’s all water under the bridge.
I’m glad Marty brought up the subject and I was able to see my part in the drama that unfolded even as a minor spear carrier.
So much for that!
It was good to end cycle on the whole scene and I’ve been feeling lighter and brighter these days.
So I guess you could say I had a win 🙂
And now I can end cycle on my minor role.
Really as I wrote earlier I now don’t feel any ill will towards either DM1 or 2 and yes if an amnesty was declared and they both accepted it.
I’d forgive ’em both.
Speaking of an auditor thing.
You’re are doing a pretty good job on this auditor thing yourself.
I think you should saddle up yourself Allan and start auditing.
I’m sure there are tons of PCs out there in SA that could use your help.
And if you’re ever in LA don’t forget to look me up and I’ll give ya a session.
Ml
Robin
Pierre,
Thanks. The litigation went on for ten years – and involved thousands of motions, hundreds of hearing, hundreds of depositions – so I am going to give you generally what I recall as it was a quite convoluted and complex process. The special master – and the Judge who supervised him – really did despise Scientology, so there was some paranoia on our part about putting originals into the court file, even under seal (as a seal could always be lifted later by a judge) . We asked for an “in camera” review to be done by the master of the original tapes, unwilling to lodge copies for fear he’d release them to the general public out of spite. He denied the “in camera” review and required we lodge them with no assurance of protection. As I recall that got litigated for years – appealing to the judge, back to the master, back to the judge, etc – with our side continually offering compromises that were rejected. So, as I recall we offered to show them, but refused to file them. And in the end he never heard them. I am notone hundred sure on exactly how this went down this because we went through this on each part of the evidence: that is the submissions to LRH, the transcripts of the tapes, etc. But it was definitely a stand off of that nature between us and the special master.
Marty
Marty — Good encapsulation. The tapes were never given to the court for that exact reason. Numerous offers were made fo rthem to be reviewed in camera.
THIS, coming from a man who covertly posed and posted on the internet as LRH reincarnated? (eyes roll)…. lying to posters denying it was not you.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.clearing.technology/msg/8739ed58380323a4?hl=en
http://www.freezoneamerica.org/LRH2/Super%20Power%202000.txt
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.clearing.technology/msg/7cea2b6124306ebe?hl=en
after you were outed
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.clearing.technology/msg/76bc24b46598e89d?hl=en
Later admitting it with lame excuses and justifications
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.clearing.technology/browse_thread/thread/20a89827bc7b6bb7/a276404ecd9fcdd3?hl=fr&q=Revenius+unveiled
You, who stated as the reincarnated LRH “First of all I want to say that I have no intention of returning to any position of management in the Churches of Scientology. My role in this lifetime will be one of refining the technical developments. Mr. David Miscavage is confirmed in his position as administrative head of the Church and is promoted to the rank of Commodore. He is awarded the status of Kha-Khan in appreciation of his good work. ”
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.clearing.technology/msg/974c1beaa6946f93?hl=en (eyes roll)
Your attacking others by use of generalities and assumptions in this thread, while trying to ingratiate yourself with Marty, would be laughable if it were not so destructive – You sound like a gossip columnist with a personal beef. Shame on you.
Remember this: Martin Ruston is a better man than you will ever be. Don’t expect him to to indulge your delusions by replying here.
He IS an alien. He’s Australian.
I have never denied posting what I posted.
I suppose we must all be accountable for our misdeeds.
Is that your real name?
Martin’s memory appears to be fogged by Robin’s excellent medicinal herbs.
I’ve called Marty some fairly unpleasant things – is that ingratiation?
Ruston got called on his bs and can’t answer so he disappears. He was the man who was there liasing between Bisbey and Mayo about the setup of the AAC in EG and he posted here saying Bisbey had no affiliation. He was caught out lying.
If Marty wants to start a thread about why I posted as Revenius and did what I did and agrees not to censor my posts then I’ll answer up on the charges. If he does so then I would ask that you study English humor, satire and the arts of rhetoric before responding.
I learnt poisonous wit in the court of Queen Elizabeth the First of England having narrowly escaped death at the hands of her sister. Life as a humble astrologer was difficult in those times.
Really Mary,
You never suspected that the following:
“First of all I want to say that I have no intention of returning to any position of management in the Churches of Scientology. My role in this lifetime will be one of refining the technical developments. Mr. David Miscavage is confirmed in his position as administrative head of the Church and is promoted to the rank of Commodore. He is awarded the status of Kha-Khan in appreciation of his good work. ”
Was nothing but satire?
I think you should lighten up a little by reading some of OTDT’s posts and watching a good comedy.
Always nice to see tidbits of History turn up.
As theb Hebrews would say. Good friends, one saved the others life, got into a fight, never saw eachother agasin, sad story Ugh. (hand gesture)
Pingback: Chi sono gli ‘Squirrel’? | La Versione ITALIANA del Blog di Silvia Kusada
put a sock in it, you covert bastard
If you would have met Mary , RJ you would feel you have a lot in common
Be more critical regarding some issues
Thanks for the link to Pat.
PIERRE ETHIER
In recent years, I have pushed that exact point across in some of the most obtuse Freezone Corners, only to be recited in a circuitous refrain that
“the Big bad Mayo created NOTs out of his own warped Mind”, some even added that “NOTs Kills”, oblivious of the facts that per LRH, PTSness is what causes
illness (and also that their own death rate on their Squirrel Rundowns and processes were higher than on NOTs – even the inventor of these weird processes died
almost 20 years younger than LRH did).
TERRIL
Death rate on whose squirrel rundowns? Not clear who you
are referring to.
Its I believe accepted by most here that doing NOTs in COS
is impossible without being PTS.
There is comments by a european NOTs C/S that most failed
to continue with stats.
I WANT TO FIND AN ENGRAM AND SEE IF THIS SHIT IS ALL REAL!!
I think right there you just duplicated the Alanzo beingness.
I believe that Pat, a trusted standard tech Class 8 C/S is the wrong target.
Pingback: Scientology And the Scientific Method « Mental Tech Development Fan's
Cat, you are linking in the above comment to my page on the community website, and it even says there my name – Tatiana Baklanova, admin. Who is Silvia? Who are you talking about? And link to the Patricia Krenik website with the community is
http://community.freezone-tech.info/elma/
Mary that defends David is most likely Mary Freeman, who was an auditor at the AAC at the time. And link to her website, were you can find the video-interview Mary gave at the AAC is
http://community.freezone-tech.info/freeman/
Marty, You were at the time fighting for the materials on the church side against David Mayo, which might incline you to see the facts through the prism of your position not so clearly. And you did not believe David Mayo.
But there were other guys to ask – “Robin Scott and some cohorts” – did you ever address them to find if they did give the materials to David and whether he took it and what did happen? Did you ever query from that side?
As for me – I trust Mary Freeman who said she was using the reconstructed by David Mayo materials way before the stolen ones arrived.
I wish you re-address the matter in a new unit of time as now as Independent Scientologist you have an Independent view point and may see things differently. Look at the product when judge. Why don’t you get into the direct comm with David Mayo? Especially if you do not hold any negative feelings against him.
My point basically is that David Mayo is a highly trained auditor and C/S, he created an AAC that was productively delivering the auditing and training,
http://community.freezone-tech.info/freeman/advanced-ability-center/
and would continue to do so if church did not crush it using stolen materials as an excuse to do that. And as any of such, David is the most valuable being on the planet and deserves support and ethics protection.
I say that Marty Rathbun PLUS David Mayo will do for the Independent Field much more good then Marty Rathbun MINUS David Mayo.
I disagree. L Ron Hubbard will do.
I know you disagree and I think I know the why, which can be cleared to gain understanding and ARC with old-timers.
“L Ron Hubbard” is here a crushing MU that creates all the confusion, upsets and ARCx-s.
I have to second this right up Mary Maren writes.
I enjoyed the video of the lady that wanted to visit Mayo’s Centre, when David Mayo opened it , I myself went from Germany there and wanted to know what was happening. The service I got and the people I met were fine , Mary and Frank were there , I have a high opinion of them both I have I high opinion of David Mayo and yes I felt he was injustly let down and a disgusting way to wards the end. I hope this is not offending any one.
Who do you mean ” She ” and what delivering A name and who you mean ..
I think if people have open questions about Mayo, and reamrks say ” let his integrity go ” should suppoprt that with evidence if it effects PT, or if can’t .What defense to speak about him if Mayo is talked about and he is not there to answer mistery questions. He may not wish to comment at all ounless One has th real picture. Its not really helpful with negative flying comments and does not go no where , it remains stuck to unknowns and from past , Overall it would be more constructive if there are so many views that they are taken up directly to David to get in com, and if thats possible, some one is in touch with him obvilously. .
Hi to anyone reading this. Is there a problem?
David Mayo was Senior C/S International. During the 1970’s when he was in charge of the tech orgs were doing well and Well Done auditing hours were soaring.
Mary Freeman is one of the first Class VIII’s trained by LRH. If you have any question about whether she wrote the statement signed “Mary” you can write her at mary@planetfreeman.com She probably has the highest freezone stats in the US. Ray and I held that honor for several years while almost no one was doing anything in the US except Rey Robles, but now there is the Freeman/Warren team in Idaho, and Trey Lotz in Southern CA.
There are a couple of other places doing well.
It doesn’t really matter if Mayo wrote the Nots materials or if LRH did, it obviously was a co-creation under the circumstances that existed then. LRH should get credit for doing it, but don’t unmock David’s part because without him there would have been no NOTs. LRH would have died in 1978.
David made the first major step that got people out of the Church, and in droves.
Why should we not think highly of him–he did so much good.
If the facts hurt – which is all that is discussed here – then I suggest you are acting quite cultish.
I am in comm with David. He lives happily in love with his wife Julie Mayo, he never left the path of spiritual advancement. Unfortunately the gag order prevents us from enjoying fruits from this “tree”. Communication with David is very high-tone, high ARC – It is remarkably clean and nourishing inflow that I get. And his attention is embracing, and attitude is caring. We discuss some ideas, and he sounded very sharp and light at the same time. Real pleasure to be in communication. If you had any questions to him you should write, I think. Such a loss that he cannot communicate openly to all of us.
Tatiana,
if this is true, please ask him about the 1980 revision of the TR’s bulletin.
Was it written by himself or by LRH.
If it was written by him, was it approved by LRH.
If yes, why was it removed from church lines.
You would do me a great favour.
The TRs Issues were (many of them) messed up by the CofS.
I hope he is doing well.
I really hope, he will speak out one day.
I don’t know what his gag-order consists of, but there is always a way to communicate if you have the correct intention. Allways.
I would also like to see facts on that, but It seems that Mike is only implying and is not going to come up with a statement.
please, realize that David did not have funds to pay for the 10 years of court battles with the church. ” Although Mayo has not had the funds to sustain this legal effort, all attorney’s fees have been paid for by a former Scientologist and San Francisco psychiatrist named Frank “Sarge” Gerbode, who Scientologist Weiland contends is using Mayo’s case to obtain rights to use the NOTs counseling techniques.” To me it looks like the man got himself trapped between two sharks (thank God, he was able to sail away!). David was not the one to make a decision about money, as it was not his that were spent in court to begin with. Think about – why would he accept 2.9 million to cover the courts costs and to lose a practice with the right to deliver the tech, that was well paid? Does not add up, does it?
It is all my speculations from what I can find and read on the subject.
Marty, you wrote in the very Post:
“Mayo’s job chiefly was to turn LRH’s spoken English descriptions into written English.And for those who have studied the original NOTs HCOBs I think you might agree Mayo didn’t even do such a great job of that. And now I am glad he did not.”
I never read any NED for OTs materials, yet.
I don’t understand what you mean saying, you’re glad he didn’t do such a great job.
I would really appreciate if you could explain it a little bit further (if you can find the time to do so).
Hi SKM, it’s nice to hear from you again! 🙂
I understand your question and wish I could help you. But David is still under the gag order and I had to agree to avoid Scientology as a subject in our conversations. I cannot address your question to him by that agreement, but as you do I hope too that one day it will change.
I can tell him hello for you. 🙂 Or you can comment on the website I am creating about David, and your comment may reach him.
Fortunately, the fact that David was made to keep silent does not mean that so should we. We CAN and should speak for him if he can’t speak for himself, shouldn’t we? Wouldn’t it be only fare exchange and pay back for all he did for us? It is never to late to do the right thing.
http://community.freezone-tech.info/david-mayo
Hello Tatiana,
thank you for letting me know.
I am always interested in truth.
That’s where my problems come from 😀
That’s how I became a Scientologist in the first place.
And that’s how and why I left the church, eventually.
Going forward, we see that we are confronted with all kinds of confusions (altered materials, suppressed communications, misled followers etc.).
While in the church, “everything is all right”, since COB ensures KSW by himself.
But, unfortunatly, it is not everything all right. The tech was suppressed and still is.
There is lots of materials out there, but it is hard to know, which materials / revisions are correct.
Miscavige is about to “revise” all OEC Volumes and Tech Volumes while we are chatting.
I don’t know what happened to David Mayo.
This very Post here, written by Marty, seems very accurate to me and I don’t think that it was too harsh.
I think it is fair. At least it is true that Mayo was up to create a new Corporate Branch of Scientology (though I think his attitude was of another character as Miscaviges).
He did a lot. I am sure.
He was at the right place at the right time and I am very thankful he helped Ron to save his life.
We don’t know if another Auditor could do it as Mayo did.
We just don’t know – what we know is, he was there and he did it.
But I don’t know much about the man, David Mayo.
Too little to judge about him.
I am not interested in judgements – I am interested in truth.
Absolutes are unatainable.
That being said, I hope he considers to get in comm again.
“To hell with the rules.”
Paka,
SKM
Great quote.
I would like to see the letter LRH sent to D. Mayo. Julie mayo wrote that:
“In April 1982, L. Ron Hubbard sent a very long and detailed letter to David Mayo concerning the future of the tech. A copy of the letter was sent to a good many other people: I was on the list, as Senior C/S INT Assistant; also CO CMO INT (John Nelson, at the time); Maureen Samuels (who was either CO CMO SU of CO CMO GOLD); and several others. ”
Who have this letter?
If the link does’nt works look here http://www.trademarkia.com/ctm/ctm-correspondent-forresters-121-1523 . For me, it means that the Scientology trademarks belongs to a society called Forresters since 2003
WOW, to come up onto this now is mindblowing, seems I was a bit sharper back in the day, gotten lazy must work on that.
@RJ
Where can I have a look at Excalibur to see for myself?
I dare say if rons liveing another life he d be playing the main game algorithm.if not he said he’s going to get those bastards back. Well I recently I completed trs and objectives after 25 years 100 k and, so I’m going outback with the car and metal detector.best wishes Greg derrick