Mike Rinder: The Village Voice Interview

Posted on April 4, 2012 by Mark C. Rathbun | 224 Comments

Mike Rinder exposes David Miscavige and his Scientology Inc torture and re-education camp called ‘the Hole.’ He discusses the mind set of a corporate Scientologist subjected to such treatment. He touches on other subjects of interest to Independent Scientologists, fence-sitters, and under-the-radar folk.

Mike Rinder: The Village Voice Interview

This entry was posted in black dianetics, ethics, healing, independents, int base, miscavige crimes, tech alterations, the Reformation and tagged "mark rathbun", David Miscavige, marty rathbun, mike rinder, scientology, The Scientology Hole, tony Ortega. Bookmark the permalink.

224 responses to “Mike Rinder: The Village Voice Interview”

scilonschools | April 4, 2012 at 2:08 pm |

Copied from My Post on TonyO VV Blog, why recreate the wheel!!

I am a ‘touchy feely’ person, one of my strengths in buisness was judging people, but I had to be in their physical presence to do it, sometimes I would travel 18 hr to meet someone for ten minutes.
I have very seldom been wrong, doesn’t mean I 100% agree with them, but if it ‘feels’ right to me it works, if it doesn’t ‘feel right’, it never works.!
I was always unsure of Mr Rinder, but when I had the pleasure of meeting him last year, shook his hand and looked him in the eye, that was good enough for me,
Mike is a Genuine Man, can’t say about his past, but the Mike I met I would trust with my life, and I’m fussy on that one!!
yarkoyrafa | April 4, 2012 at 2:12 pm |

The Int hole is the creation of a CMO kid with no real life experience. This kind of punishment will be recreated wherever an indoctrinated CMO kid with no real life experience is put in charge of a management unit for the CoS. This capricious attitude is the fruit of the ignorance about real life imho.
Lizabeth | April 4, 2012 at 2:56 pm |

Way to go Mike, good life story and videos. I look forward to meeting you one day, look into your eyes and give you a hug!
((Hugs))
Stoic-1 | April 4, 2012 at 3:16 pm |

Video of Rinder when he was in CO$ vs post CO$ shows how much tension they have inside their body, in the CULTure of CO$. These people are on the verge of meltdown. If protesters were outside orgs and spoke to those in the cult with compassion and kindness rather than arguing with them, not by attacking but by helping them to see the truth, I imagine that would be more effective than confirming their programming that ‘SPs are waiting to get you!’ I know that it isn’t likely to convince the upper level types but if I was an average joe, just hoping that scientology would make my life better, I’d be much more open to hearing someone tell me “It’s ok, you can blow. People will help you.” Rather than hearing “You’re in a cult! Scientology kills!” Signs with slogans like “We’ll help you blow” , “Blow now! Ask me how!” need to be used to present the idea of blowing as it grows in their mind. Others could use: “Does Square footage clear the planet?”, “Have you seen one org that isn’t empty?” , “When did you last feel safe?” , “Shouldn’t salvation be joyful?” , “Leaders build people up, bullies tear people down.” , “Doubt means you seek truth!” If a network of those who live around orgs actually followed through on helping them blow, I think the orgs would bleed people like never before. “The best way to destroy an enemy is to make him a friend.” – Abe Lincoln
Lisa Hamilton | April 4, 2012 at 3:17 pm |

Mike, Thanks, that was really interesting. It explained to me an incident back in, I believe, 2006. I was the HAS CLO WUS (not by choice) and Jenny DeVocht Linson was on Mission in PAC. She told me i was an SP and I disagreed. She put me in the area where construction was happening in the Main Building (where other SPs were) and told me to write my crimes. I wrote MY OWs and felt relief. She came and looked at them and told me they were NOT my crimes and that they were not bad enough and she was going to send me to the RPF. I told her I did not think I should go to the RPF and she ended up not sending me. In any case, I remember thinking that maybe there were other things that I just could not remember, but was confused as I could not think of anything else and I had gotten the EP of my OW write up. That night I was told that I was being moved out of my dorm room and away from my husband. They were going to put me in a room with someone who was routing out. I refused utterly and so someone stood outside my door all night to make sure I did not blow. At that point I was still loyal and of course felt guilty as I never wanted the HAS post and so was sure everything was “my responsibility”. I was then put on MEST work for days and finally posted in PAC Renos as the D/Design and Planning Officer, which was a relief. While on that post we put LRH Way in place and from that post, I was promoted to Senior I&R PAC. It never made sense to me that I had last been considered an SP, but was now over all Ethics/Justice in PAC. Well, now it does.

Lisa
tunedal | April 4, 2012 at 3:18 pm |

Very important interview. This explained much of what is going on with SO staff.
mrinder | April 4, 2012 at 3:31 pm |

Lisa — Thanks. I am glad that it shed some light for you. It is fascinating what shared information does to as-is incidents. You see what happened with someone else or what they say or their viewpoint and it so often fills a vacuum for you and things seem clearer. Truth cleanses the soul….
Markkus | April 4, 2012 at 3:38 pm |

Jesusssss,

I cannot think of any ANY other CEO (like COB David Miscavige of CofS) of any ANY big company (1 Billion + revenue) in the world that treat his vice president and all vice presidents and some of the 40+ staff (almost from start-up stuff on highest positions in company) near like this. Mind boggling on so many levels!

This kind of treatment is known only in concentration camps!

I salute to Mike!

It sucks to be COB (Chief Of the Sinking Boat)!
It sucks to be David Miscavige very mouch!
Markkus
Mike | April 4, 2012 at 4:04 pm |

Mr. Rinder,
Great interview and thank you for your honesty about your personel experiences. I would be interested in reading your thoughts on how being “out” has influenced your life and/or thoughts, employment, friends, ect… anything and everything. You, Marty, and many others, have a important and unique insight into the human mind based on having lived, from my perspective, 2 lives.
Roy Selby | April 4, 2012 at 4:08 pm |

Village Voice Interview certainly blew some charge for me, Mike. You were involved in the SO on a much larger scale than I was, but the feeling of “It’s all my fault” “I am responsible for the unsuccessful accomplishments” was shared by many, the guilt, etc. It’s the main reason I left in ’82, thinking I was a failure. I reasoned that LRH had ordered me to the Apollo to train in ’74 and I had ultimately failed him. But it wasn’t LRH who had used heavy ethics and incorrect PTS Tech, and wanted overts I never committed. Thanks for being there and speaking out. It has really opened some doors for me.
FCDC Class of 74 | April 4, 2012 at 4:11 pm |

Gee Mike I hope you received better pay than treatment. How did DM get through the day without someone trying to shank his evil behind? Congrats on your child, belated or recent.
Simple | April 4, 2012 at 4:12 pm |

Good job as always, MIke. I especially liked the part where you answered those who criticise you for not doing what they think you should do.
George | April 4, 2012 at 4:13 pm |

The hardest thing is loosing ones wife and family. Not so much the fact of loosing but the way one looses his wife. Even miles away you know when your wife is made to beleive (by overwhelming her) that you are a bad person. (SP) After that you cannot reach her anymore. No matter what you say it does not count. She „knows“ you are bad and you know, but still trying to handle the situation by logic and communication, that you lost her.
Mark Fisher | April 4, 2012 at 4:26 pm |

I have to run to work, but I have to say to you Mike is thank you for sharing your stories. I was glued to my computer screen. The way you described things put me right there with you.

I agree that the indoctrination over time is key to holding these long term Sea Org members in place. That plus I think DM realizes that the Achilles Heel of every Sea Org Member and Scientologist is that deep down as you say, we all got involved to help our fellow man. We were not there for selfish reasons.

DM uses that dedication to his advantage to twist good hearted people to do his evil bidding.
Bluebonnet | April 4, 2012 at 4:34 pm |

How about, “If it ain’t fun, it ain’t Scientology!”
mrinder | April 4, 2012 at 4:35 pm |

Mike — scan back through the articles and comments on this blog and you will see a lot of things I and others have written that I think will give you some perspective.
noteacherleftstanding | April 4, 2012 at 4:36 pm |

For me, Mike has demonstrated remarkably consistent integrity and strength of character throughout the post-Miscavology era.

This interview is just yet another prime example.

I am personally grateful for what he does to help unburden the current situation regards the Radical Church and it’s sordid agenda…

So once again Mike,
Thank you.
mrinder | April 4, 2012 at 4:38 pm |

Thankyou Sir, hope we get to see you again this July…
noteacherleftstanding | April 4, 2012 at 4:48 pm |

I admire the consistent way Mike continues to help unburden the catastrophic meltdown that is left in place of the Church.

In this post-Miscavology era, he has emerged as one of the most effective communicators helping set things right.

Once again, thank you Mike for helping make “It sucks to be Miscavige” a reality which so many more people can appreciate..

Vic
Phil de Fontenay | April 4, 2012 at 4:49 pm |

Awesome job Mike! 🙂

David Miscavige is a total dork. I remember being on the Freewinds
doing OT8 at the same time as the Maiden voyage events. I had to dress
up and go to the event early when all I wanted to do is study. The first
day he proceeded to tell everyone present that we had all false attested
to the completion of 8-8008 because it was so out of whack. Then the
whole damn lot of us had to drop what we were doing to complete the
whole course in 2 days or less. I was pissed because I had to stop
studying OT8 for that. What an ass! 🙂
Vic K. | April 4, 2012 at 4:51 pm |

Oops – I thought I lost the first post, lol… I like my second version better anyway. And yes Mike, Vicki and I already have our reservations and can’t wait!
mrinder | April 4, 2012 at 4:53 pm |

Vic: Looking forward to seeing you both…
Luis Garcia | April 4, 2012 at 4:58 pm |

Dear dear Mike,

I have no words. I knew you were abused, along with many others. But hearing it from you just creates a new perspective.

Your stories have reinvigorated my zeal to help bring any and such abuses to an end. To think that Heber, Yager and so many others are still there….

I know you don’t regret the past and your eye is in the future; I wish a much brighter and happier future for you, your loved ones and your friends.

Luis
George | April 4, 2012 at 4:58 pm |

I think your work had an impact. See some small print quotes from a NOTs flyer from AOSH UK:

“The Sea Organization is a religious fraternity and not a legal body. Sea Org volunteer staff members actively paticipate in a given Church and are responsible to that Church body.”

“The benefits and goals of Scientology philosophy can be attained only by the dedicated efforts of the reader.” (those who did not attain had not been dedicated enough)
Mike Laws | April 4, 2012 at 5:02 pm |

Mike,

I am proud of you for the work you are doing both to understand what happened (from self reflection and analysis) through taking responsibility in building and sharing your evolving and intimate thoughts and healing with others, not to mention the WORK you do helping others.

Good man, Lloyd. Thank you.
The Oracle | April 4, 2012 at 5:05 pm |

Really great interview Mike. I am so glad you are out of that madness.

Volunteer workers do not deserve to be treated as you were. That is straight up injustice. Unacceptable in modern civilization.

That there are people connected to him in various ways that support it and contribute to it , is shocking.

Thank you for the time and effort to explain these events to people on the outside who only see the tanned host on televised events, and cling to their certificates and status’ as stable datums.

Hopefully some of them can shift to personal integrity as a stable datum even if it causes some personal inconvenience.

Congratulations on the upcoming birth! A good omen! Time is on your side!
mrinder | April 4, 2012 at 5:09 pm |

Luis,

Thank you. One of the most wonderful things about stepping out into the world is the new friends I have made, and you and Rocio sit right up there on that ever growing list. I have said it before, but I truly value and cherish the friendships I have rekindled and the new ones I have made more than anything else in life. And its people like you — who I share so much common reality with that are a source of happiness and satisfaction in life.

Love to you and your family.
mrinder | April 4, 2012 at 5:09 pm |

Back atcha Michael.
Ziba Feulner | April 4, 2012 at 5:10 pm |

Mike, great interview; very well analyzed facts precisely communicated. I especially like the fact that you brought up the fact that most sea org members have good intentions and only want to help. Too bad they are under the spell of a sociopath, David Miscavige…
Mike | April 4, 2012 at 5:12 pm |

I try to keep up with the comments, but its hard because there are so many! I dont know how Marty does it these days. 2 Years ago, a post would get a few comments, today, some get 300 plus! What I was attempting to get across in my comment to you was that if you were to write a book, I would buy it.
Carcha | April 4, 2012 at 5:17 pm |

“We’re not squirrels.”
Howard Roark | April 4, 2012 at 5:30 pm |

Thanks Mike. This interview will help a lot of people, and the videos are important because they will go viral.
corey | April 4, 2012 at 5:33 pm |

Way to go Mike – I simply cannot comprehend what you must have gone through.

From the consensus of opinion I am hearing from former ex-members about DM, it sounds like the C.O.B. behaves like a real S.O.B.
The same old LDW | April 4, 2012 at 5:49 pm |

Mike,
Thanks for continuing to do such a great job in communicating the travesty of the organization and differentiating it from the benefits of the tech.
In the factors LRH says (and it is very real to me) “…admiration is so strong its absense alone permits persistence.”
It’s so enjoyable to be hanging out here, where so many people like yourself make it easy to practice admiration due to the honesty of the comm line.
Thanks.
Les
SKM | April 4, 2012 at 5:58 pm |

+1
Tara | April 4, 2012 at 5:59 pm |

Excellent article and interviews, Mike & Tony/VV. Your interviews help untangle the confusion that filtered down. The truth sets us all free.
XE1 | April 4, 2012 at 6:02 pm |

Mike,
Your work and that of all the others in and out of the Independent field in providing the truth about how the C of S has morphed into an organisation that operates more like the Nazis will bring about the demise of dm. IMHO dm is the Shortest Suppressive Person On Planet Earth (SS-POPE)
KRoyce | April 4, 2012 at 6:11 pm |

Yes, injustice. Straight up and vertical! Now that would be an honest stat our friend Davey could show at his gala events! How about it, David Miscavige? You have complete control over that one.
Graham Berry | April 4, 2012 at 6:19 pm |

Thank you Mike, for all that you are doing now.
Ronnie Bell | April 4, 2012 at 6:26 pm |

“LRH is out here, y’all.”
jonsty | April 4, 2012 at 6:29 pm |

I love Mike Rinder…concise and to the point.
But I would like to add my take on what I believe could also take down the CoS. Follow this argument:
1) Class 5 org staff, and long standing Scientologists, are very genned into the stats. They believe stats, even if they are fabrications at events from DM.
2) Class 5 org staff, and long standing Scientologists surrounding the orgs, believe that their particular orgs are the only ones failing. They have had this reality pounded into them for years. “All other orgs are doing great…everyone but you.”
3) I am assuming that the real continental stats on WDAH’s and/or Class 5’s made are under lock and seal. If they ever came out and were presented by someone of authority, like Debbie Cook, for example, the end game will have begun.
4) CLO and Flag will go on lock down. Orders will fly to prevent local orgs from seeing the truth.
5) But, just as with Debbie’s email, the truth will filter through to the Class 5 org staff and their public.
6) There will be a period of reluctance, fear, questioning, what-have-you.
7) But one thing for sure, those decent and salvageable staff members and local Scientologists (not the 100% kool-aid drinkers) will never again believe orders or statements from CLO’s, DM, events, or their orgs.
8) The wind will be out of their sails…the betrayal would be complete. They will have no intention behind any more big sales or dono programs. The end game would be near.
Just saying.
Tony DePhillips | April 4, 2012 at 6:30 pm |

That was a very touching interview Mike.
I really feel you and appreciate the very public actions you are taking while you yourself are healing.
As far as the topic of “why people stayed so long and didn’t leave earlier” I have some thoughts on that.

Dianetic Axiom 118 : “An organism cannot become aberrated unless it has agreed upon that aberration, has been in communication with the source of aberration and has affinity for the aberrator.” ~LRH

Some of the things that almost all Scientologists agreed with that in my opinion set a person up to take a lot of abuse are these:

1.) A thetan can do anything. : This sets you up with the idea that you SHOULD be able to take any situation and if you don’t do a post right then you are BAD and it kicks in the guilt circuit. An SP can use this to his advantage.

2.) We are Clearing the planet. : This then justifies all the bad actions you witness and you end up taking it all because it is the “greatest good” to keep things going at any cost.

3.) That COB is very able and well intentioned. : I agreed with this for a long time and it was part and parcel on why I tolerated so much stupidity in the cult for so long.

4.) The churches tech terminals are standard.: I agreed with this also for a very long time and it contributed to my own aberrations. Because if they are standard and I am not winning then I am the cause of the problem and not them.

I am sure there a lot more of these items. They all add up to a huge agreement and allow the aberration of entrapment to set in.

Being part of the cult runs in aberrations. Being a free Scientologist you can start running them out.

I wanted to give kudos to Steve Hall also for his dissertation on how a person can use the steps A to E to help remedy his or her bad effects from the cult. By us agreeing with these aberrated and non-aberrated ideas that create this GPM ( big mass of confusion of ideas is the way I mean it here) a person has gone into agreement to a greater or lesser degree with a group that has as it’s final product (VFP??!!) a person who is controlled and cannot think for themselves and cannot evaluate data and will encourage others to do the same. This is suppressive.

I am really glad that you made it out of the labyrinth Mike. So many great people have been trapped and aberrated in what is truly a world class trap. The truly able ones are the one who are finally able to throw off the shackles and then go on to help others throw off theirs too!! Thanks Marty and Mike and also Tony Ortega for spreading the truth!!
Ronnie Bell | April 4, 2012 at 6:32 pm |

Hi Lisa,
I was on the PAC Renos crew in the Logs unit during the time period you mentioned. I was “Voodoo”. I worked with Mark Mitchell (“Badger”). We were both hired hands. You probably remember Kirk Steele and Barbara Moulton from the design and planning unit.

Thanks for telling your story. It helps fill in yet another piece of the puzzle for me.
Randy Smith | April 4, 2012 at 6:34 pm |

Such a great interview, Mike, and thanks so much for doing it and posting it, Tony. What I found really helpful was your reflections on Why Did We Stay, which those of us who were “in” for so many years have (and still are) struggling with. Your comments about the inurement one undergoes led me to reflect further on why I stayed so long, and what essentially changed for me that led me to leave the CofS.

You mentioned that people who join the Sea Org are doing it with the motivation to help and improve conditions – not for self aggrandizement. That is why I joined staff, and when that purpose ran up against the first face-ripping invalidation, or damnable injustice, you might “go outside and have a cigarette and sneer” (as LRH said in I think the Injustice PL) and then you would carry on, BECAUSE YOU KNEW THAT THE TECH WAS WORKING in helping others and yourself to regain abilities. And we were “Building a world with broken straws”, i.e. “nobody’s perfect!” And what other choice was there?

For me, what got me looking OUTSIDE of the carefully censored and sanctioned comm channels of the Church, was seeing the Tech itself being perverted. Most notably for me, the “three-swing FN” rule enforced on my auditors and examiners when I went to Flag. When you would go to the examiner after session and the examiner would sit there, staring at the meter like he/she was waiting for it to “play Dixie”, I started saying to myself “What the F**K is going on?? (After rehabbing myself enough to get the FN called by the examiner, of course). I didn’t know yet WHO was doing it, but I knew SOMEONE was f**king with my beloved Tech!!

And then seeing high-producing tech terminals like Trey Lotz shot from guns for delivering straight Scientology technology, having bettered hundreds of lives over the years, well, that was the straw that led me to take my wife Kay’s suggestion to go online, read the Truth Rundown where Marty, Amy, Steve, and Tom revealed the OMIGOD stuff that we had been unaware of, and the rest is – history.

And my god, it feels good to live in freedom and integrity again after swallowing all the YEARS of bullshit, doesn’t it? And be able once more to REALLY HELP change conditions for the better with LRH’s REAL Scientology technology.

I delivered four intensives of Standard Tech to the usual rave results last month.

I am sure every Independent Scientologist had their own tipping point – that got them to try to look outside of the Matrix, or the Truman’s World (or whatever analogy you might use for the Dark Side: the Church of Miscavige) – but that was mine.

And just think how it SUCKS to be David Miscavige as he views your videoed interviews today!

Thanks again for all you are doing, and best wishes to you and Christie on your upcoming new arrival!
Dan Locke | April 4, 2012 at 6:38 pm |

Mike’s interview helped me a lot. I was never at Int, but there was a dark shadow-like aspect of this in the service orgs and management orgs in PAC also, and throughout the SO internationally I think. And I was part of those for most of my life.

I know of only a few incidents of slapping over many years and don’t recall any real beatings, but that undermining, nearly daily ridicule in varying intensity that happened behind the scenes in the more public orgs is a shadow of a physical beating and it takes its toll.

I always thought that our assumption of duty as “the highest motivation of all” was what explained a lot or our going on and behaving meanly, even when our consciences nagged us.

I have no personal experience with the marines; I’ve only heard stories and don’t know if any of them were true, but it seems that duty’s been the banner under which a lot of suffering has occurred; all of it seemingly righteous at the time of the offense.

I remember the popularity of the book, Shogun, amongst SO members and staff in the 70’s. I thought of it as ideal! (I just wished there was a little time left for tea ceremonies, haiku and calligraphy in the SO…) But the passion for a group ideal and success of that society, I admired.

But the management of such a group with such convictions has to be overwhelmingly virtuous or it ends up being as destructive as any of the Hitler Youth groups or Islamic fanatics, so it’s dangerous ground.

Thanks for the videos, Mike. Cathartic.
retiredfromthechurch | April 4, 2012 at 6:40 pm |

Mike, when you were talking about the Lisa McPherson case and all of these questions by DM regarding “What did you really do?” and all that, he was just dramatizing ‘The overt doth speak loudly in accusation.’ Blaming everyone else for what he himself was responsible for. I know I’m speaking to the choir here but your interview with Tony O really added weight to the whole of what we have been experiencing for the past 3 years.
Thank you for that!!!
mike | April 4, 2012 at 6:43 pm |

Very interesting video and interview Mike. It shed some new light on the mind control that Miscavige’s uses on you. It’s been told you and others, how it is impossible to please Dear Leader over even the simplest task, and you feel squashed as a result. When I went through my own incident in 1997, I went through days of writing my confessions, wondering what have I done wrong. I ended up just making stuff up, so Anne Rathbun would get away from me and go find another victim. How idiotic of me, she ending up giving me a provisonal declare. Anyway, this interview really hits home the mental anguish a place like the hole or A-E room can create. The RPF is similar but not as barbaric.

Mike Reppen
Sinar | April 4, 2012 at 6:45 pm |

Mike,

Thanks very much to you and Christie for the interviews given, it really puts in a lot of perspective for me as I left during the LM case as I perceived it was a totally nutty scene which was going nowhere with no hope of redirection; but it was way mild compared to your and Marty’s experiences!

What really resonates is DM’s (the victim) consideration, which he has had for the longest time of “they’re all against me” which justifies all atrocities and abuses having convinced all Kool Aid drinkers that he is the anointed one or the second coming.
Dan Locke | April 4, 2012 at 6:49 pm |

Thank you, Randy. I agree. It was al put up with because of that hope. And, yes, I saw that three swing rule damn about 250 people from EVER graduating the RPF in the 98-2003 RPF. (This rule came about whilst I was in the RPF, so that is the only place I have first hand knowledge of it’s destructive aspect.)
dankoon | April 4, 2012 at 6:50 pm |

Mike Freaking Rinder! Really, really, really good video footage. Thanks for articulating so well what so many Int staff experienced. Hope to see news of the blessed event soon. Talk about a guy landing on his feet after a 4 day walkabout.
One final word, I read the comments beneath the interview on the VV and I have to say that the commenters on Tony’s blog, nearly all, are a bunch of fucking morons. I would be interested to hear Tony’s impression about the Scientologists he has met and talked with, which must number quite a few by now.
Jim Logan | April 4, 2012 at 6:52 pm |

Me too!
Jim Logan | April 4, 2012 at 6:57 pm |

George,
The benefits of Scientology can be attained only by the dedicated efforts of the reader. You crack wise about that, but, it is perfectly valid and IS a fact. Any enlightenment, any spiritual edification (an oxymoron of sorts, as spiritual is a tearing down of edifices), any attainment of truth is attainment of the personal truth of who one really is. Nobody can do that for you. You can be assisted, but it is only by your own efforts that you get there, if you do.
Jim Logan | April 4, 2012 at 7:00 pm |

Wonderful post Tony.
isene | April 4, 2012 at 7:10 pm |

Mike; apart from the videos being really good – honest and clear cut – you have an excellent command of the language (even the swearing). You really should start writing books.
The same old LDW | April 4, 2012 at 7:11 pm |

You’re correct, of course, Jim.
Only problem is that “they” use this line as an excuse to blame the PC when he doesn’t get results from their squirrel tech. And they use it to sell more squirrel tech to people who are indoctrinated into the idea that it’s all their “fault.”

Actual example: Out of 100 hours of misprogrammed audting they use up 50 hours on rudiments and bypass over 75 F/Ns during that process. Result is a couple of sessions with some nice wins and the rest of it basically worse-than-wasted time and money. Any complaint = blame the pc for not being “in session” and blame the pc for “not being honest with the auditor.”

Criminal exchange fully justified.
iamvalkov | April 4, 2012 at 7:12 pm |

Mike, Thank You very much for doing these interviews. I am so glad you are out of that nightmare and I wish you and your new family the best of everything. Ya’ll totally deserve it.
The same old LDW | April 4, 2012 at 7:15 pm |

Beautifully stated Tony.

Les
KRoyce | April 4, 2012 at 7:16 pm |

Great interview, Mike. On the question about why does someone stay through all that insanity, something you said got me to see another reason why people stay. Of course, if we have loved ones who we know aren’t going to leave, that’s one thing. But I think just the fact that there are all these other SO members who, as far as we know, aren’t thinking about leaving, it makes us hang in there another day and another day and so on. We don’t want to be the one who gave up, when others — our teammates — are going to have to continue to “carry the load” and our leaving would make it even harder on them. So we continue to carry on until, finally, leaving becomes the only option.
E.J. Croughs | April 4, 2012 at 7:27 pm |

LOL!!
Dan Locke | April 4, 2012 at 7:36 pm |

Some of the most articulate of all commenters on any blog. But their motive in general is to make nothing out of the whole subject and be condescending at best to any person wanting to point out anything good in the subject.
Carol | April 4, 2012 at 7:39 pm |

Mike, absolutely great interview. I will admit parts of it broke my heart.
To think what you, Marty, Tom, Matt, Amy, Jeff, Marc, Claire, all of you
endured with this complete lunatic at the helm, makes me sick to my stomach. When I look back at all of this and the lies that were told to the public about how well the staff was doing and how taken care of they all were, i.e. doctors when needed, dentists, food, housing it makes me sick. You are all a strong and dedicated group!!!!!
Rocio Garcia | April 4, 2012 at 7:51 pm |

Mike, very interesting interview, is going to help public to see what is inside of the radical church of miscavige. Saludos to you and Christie.
E.J. Croughs | April 4, 2012 at 7:57 pm |

I would also add: To control you’d have to lie and do it big and enforce it hard. Davey knows that and practises it with extreme diligence. The only way to continue an unwanted condition is by prevention of as-is. Every condition is explained with more lies and people stuck in there won’t be able to get out. Only those that get pushed so far or have such integrity that they honestly start seeking truth can start as-issing the lies and get themselves out.
Integrity is Davey’s foremost target and he erodes it on the gradient that Mike so eloquently explains. The only way one gets to be blind is by acting against one’s integrity, preferably unknowingly as that really makes the trap formidable. It happens to be the very construction of the trap called MEST universe and Davey is not much more than a stimulus response entity that dramatizes it perfectly. The Bridge is designed to get you out of it but you do need a Bridge to walk on and not quicksand disguised as Bridge.
Michael Fairman | April 4, 2012 at 8:10 pm |

Mike
To someone who was public and treated with kid gloves, I am light years away from understanding why you, Marty and so many others put up with the years of abuse and degradation; and contributed to it as well. Your interview with Ortega has taken me a step closer. Your connecting the goodness of individual purpose having to operate in an environment intensified by Miscavige begins to make an understanding possible. It then becomes it even more remarkable that you and the others were able to extricate yourselves from that horror. That you were able to do that knowing the ensuing consequences, and now advocating for that horror to end, indicates to me the highest level of responsibility. Thank you for all you are doing.
Michael
ThetaPotata | April 4, 2012 at 8:15 pm |

“The overt doth speak loudly.” I thought the same thing! I hadn’t heard that DM had been CS’ing LM’s case. Maybe if you donate enough money you get your case personally programmed and CS’d by DM with a goal to turn you into a brainless zombie who will donate all worldly possessions to the IAS. Mike did a great job of being “real” and the “Frog in the Pot” analogy gives you 100% duplication of how this can happen to smart self determined beings over a long period of time.
Claudio & Renata Lugli | April 4, 2012 at 8:15 pm |

Dear Mike,
your interview was and is really touching.
I do think we have all been subjected to indoctrination.
It is done using Reverse Scientology as a new mean to implant people of good will.
The goal each one of us had when joined in was to help.
DM goal is completely different. He wants to dominate, and he does that by implanting in various degrees the whole of the Scientology Community.
It has been for all of us a very slow awakening, but is thanks to people like you, Marty, Amy, Steve, Tom, Jeff and all the other persons of good will that the implant is getting UNDONE.
Is an old, old story repeating. Thanks God this time we spotted it on time.
DM will be defeated. No doubts about that.
The implant will and is vanishing.
Thanks for you integrity and your persistence in making this possible.
Your courage is very, very commendable.

Claudio & Renata
Bryan U. | April 4, 2012 at 8:17 pm |

Bravo Mike!

I hope this reaches millions of people.
Jim Logan | April 4, 2012 at 8:24 pm |

Les, as you well know, descend the Tone Scale and any piece of truth will get inverted to be some kind of aberration. Reverse Scientology.

And as you know and are a perfect example with what you do, it only takes the USUAL, standard actions and all that turmoil of misprogramming, misauditing and mis whatever straightens out, the birds sing and the universe pours out its heart in sweet melody. True that.
R.og.e.r M.ei.er | April 4, 2012 at 8:25 pm |

Mike,

This was an honest report, no pr just itsa.
It gives great reality about the craziness going on.
Wish you and your wife the best for your soon to arrive baby !
What a joy !
You will love it and you’ll have lots of time for your baby !
happybaby89 | April 4, 2012 at 8:36 pm |

Dan, I have the same impression on the people commenting on the VV article. ESMB is even worse. There seems to be nothing a real scientologist can do that will satisfy them. If Mike or Marty does something then it is somehow wrong. If they do the opposite that is also somehow wrong. One just can’t win. Hmm, where else have I seen this operating basis?
Honestly, the mentality and attitude of these people reminds me of the best enforcers of Miscavige. They have an agenda and the more it stops forward progress the the stronger the argument for it becomes. They just can’t think with the middle path.
Mike thank you for doing what you are doing. I think you are doing the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics.
Jim Logan | April 4, 2012 at 8:38 pm |

Mike,
When you were describing doing A-E you nailed it on how one goes about doing that to give Dave what HE wants. It’s all about his universe, what he sees in others, what he puts there. If you agree with him, well, there you go, he’s always right and he knows what is really going on. All you have to do is write up what you predict, from assuming his viewpoint, what he’ll accept.

It’s HIS acceptance level (covered in PABs 15,16) that you are addressing.

When I had to do A-E under Dave, I had studied the PDCs and made my first real attempt at utilizing the Tone Scale and especiallly the ARC level of what I assigned to he and RTC at that time. I’d tried al sorts of rationality and factt, to no interest or attention. It was only when I assumed his viewpoint, how he saw the world, his universe agreed upon by others, that I was able to write something that he would approve. It had to drip blood, be salacious, really pour on the gore and nefarious and assign the most evil of intentions to my most ordinary acts, that it was accepted. I managed to do it in a way that would please Dave, and yet not compromise my own integrity by admitting shit that was BULL shit.

It worked up to a point where I was approved on A-E being done. Unfortunately, A-E is actually never ending for Dave. It goes on and on and on and one never is capable of any kind of change in his universe. Fuck his universe. I have my own and I can create any one I want, and get agreement or not and I can see what others agree to, and Dave, your universe sucks.

Your universe is what all these other viewpoints, these independent Scientologists, these decent human beings in all walks of life, all reject as what it is – completely friggin’ bonkers, hate filled and in mortal terror that the spear that is poised 1/16th of an inch in front of your face is going to plunge on through. Here’s a clue, clueless, LET IT PLUNGE and this whole facade, this whole false universe you see, all of it will go. You will survive, you can’t do anything but.
martyrathbun09 | April 4, 2012 at 8:38 pm |

Both forums are rife with OSA agents, and with a low toned audience that is a very low toned mix.
martyrathbun09 | April 4, 2012 at 8:41 pm |
Dean Fox | April 4, 2012 at 9:02 pm |

Mike Rinder thank you for this interview. I could tell it was sincere, you nearly lost it a couple of times and started crying it seemed.

It was a fascinating insight and a confirmation that for the most part church of scientology members are good people who have been corrupted.
Tony DePhillips | April 4, 2012 at 9:02 pm |

Thanks MOQ.
Tony DePhillips | April 4, 2012 at 9:03 pm |

Hi Les.
How’s it going in Idaho? We are going to come and see you guys one of these days.
Tony DePhillips | April 4, 2012 at 9:04 pm |

LOL.. I love that movie!!
Sherb | April 4, 2012 at 9:12 pm |

The RCS sure is a run away train wreck. Well done & thanks Mike for putting some clarity into that mess. It’s been difficult as never being SO but very close to the tech in the form of being staff to get the real reasons why such a mess developed. The depth of perversion of LRH is mind boggling and although unsavory needs to be confronted.
Miscavige has progressed from a sick little puppy into a cur dog.
Tony DePhillips | April 4, 2012 at 9:15 pm |

Sorry if my laughter is inappropriate. I thought you were being over the top, but maybe you weren’t….
noteacherleftstanding | April 4, 2012 at 9:18 pm |

Hell Yeah, Jim!

I guess this is a pretty good time and place to announce that I have my first two PCs in the early stages and will no doubt be seeking technical advice from you, Jim Logan, and the other sages of the Free Scientology field.

This is fun.
Brian | April 4, 2012 at 9:23 pm |

Wow…… First off I’d like to acknowledge that my understanding and experience of abuse in the past is nothing compared to what you guys experienced. Nothing!

Thank you Mike Rinder for telling your story. The Miscavige regime is singularly revolting and despicable unmatched by anything I’ve heard or experienced.

Any of my past associations with bad experiences shall not, after today, be an A=A.

I have a great repect for you Mike. What you guys have been through….. HOLY SHIT!

The Miscavige free reign taste for cruelty can only end in misery for him.

Thank all you guys, MIke, Marty and the rest, for living through that and telling your stories.

Somehow, someway, something good is happening here. Something light, from all that darkness.

Wow Mike, wow
Tyler | April 4, 2012 at 9:26 pm |

Mike Rinder suffered abuse and deprivation for years. His motivation then, as now, was his loyalty to LRH. His greatest strengths are his selflessness and his brilliance. DM is no match for Mike on any level. Ask anyone who knows them both.
Cindi | April 4, 2012 at 9:27 pm |

If all the people in the hole are seniors (or even if some of them are) why can’t anyone report Flag for elder abuse to California Adult Protecetion Services? Every county in California has an office, and once reported, they are obligated to investigate, which includes interviewing face-to-face the seniors involved – like Heber – as well as their conditions, including medical. They’ve gone into Catholic hospitals and convalescent homes, I don’t think Flag would be any different.
At least it’s something that could be looked into.
Cindi | April 4, 2012 at 9:30 pm |

Sorry, Adult PROTECTIVE Services, APS. It’s part of the Dept. of Health & Human Services.
Dean Fox | April 4, 2012 at 9:34 pm |

I don’t know the degree of censorship you impose these days, it seems a lot more lenient than it use to be, so I don’t know the number of obvious OSA posts you block.

I venture to suggest that OSA tries harder to post here than say ESMB. No disrespect but obviously when you make it harder they must try to be more inventive.

Michael A Hobson has already pointed out that he sees a cause and effect pattern between discussing David Miscavige’s crimes and the “sudden” appearance of unknown people who all agree to turn the debate around in to criticising LRH.

Okay so Michael A Hobson (independent scientologist) didn’t say it was OSA and was most put out when I assumed it was, but so far he hasn’t suggested who else it could be.

TBH I don’t know the politics totally so may be there are other groups after you indies that would support David Miscavige but the only players I know of are: the indies; The Church of Scientology, the old guard (critics) and Anonymous.

The Old Guard as represented by Wise Beard Man and Tory Magoo don’t have the capacity and wouldn’t on principal play such games.

Anonymous could do this but frankly while divided on the issue of LRH being OK and DM not neither side would support David Miscavige.

That just leaves me with the church of scientology and David Miscavige represented by OSA.

I feel OSA presence here is surely comensurate with ESBM the difference is you might identify the posts and prevent them.

As regards WWP. OSA have been present since day 1 and they always get their asses handed to them in a sling because Anonymous calls them out, laughs at them and gives them a big FU. This is what tends to happen in ESBM too.

Bear in mind the attacks on both site are the same and should be the same as on this site however there might be more visibility on the other two because no one “moderates” comments pre post. We all criticise the church of scientology and David Miscavige.

That said in some ways it’s nice to be in a forum with some moderation to stop nonsensical flame wars with OSA.

Speaking as an audience of this blog and ESBM and WWP I feel someone maligned at being referred to as low tone. I can assure you I am far from low tone. 🙂

The old adage you will never satisty all the people all of the time is as true as birds of a feather flock together. Which I believes explains your perception.
The Oracle | April 4, 2012 at 9:36 pm |

There is nothing but fair gaming going on, on both blogs. The fair game policy goes like Manhattan there, 24/7. They have become a mirror image of all they protest about in the Church. Even if you say something civilized you can not win. They are in truth, stuck into the same implants being run as programs in the Church. To harm, attack, and suppress your fellow man. They are actually mocking the Church in attitude and behavior.

It is not your beliefs that make you a better or worse person. It is your behavior.

That we remain in this arena at all, because we would actually like be able to make them all well and happy anyway at the end of this theater, is a constant testament of our good nature and willingness to endure.
The same old LDW | April 4, 2012 at 9:41 pm |

I sure hope you are gonna be at the 4th event. Can’t wait for another one of your bear hugs:)

We’re all set to go!!!!
Brian | April 4, 2012 at 9:42 pm |

To all those secretly reading this blog who are still in the Church of Cruelty.

Let you intuitive knowing guide you.

The decision that brings you a feeling of relief is the right decision.

It may not be an easy decision to make.

But hey, who said integrity was easy.

The is still time to salvage your life.

The right thing to do, is somtimes the hardest.
The same old LDW | April 4, 2012 at 9:45 pm |

Just had a floating TA on one of our solo students first solo sessions. Anita had a great session on NOTs from Mary. I blew out on another original OT IV win. Anita just audited a youngster to VVVVV GIs on objectives. We have ten guys lined up for a comm course in a couple of weeks. Lots more going on.

Our door is totally open for you guys anytime you want to come up and visit. Send a note to any local OSA spies so they can come up and visit with you. We’ll show them what real scientology is all about.
elgin7 | April 4, 2012 at 9:46 pm |

Stoic-1
Excellent sign messages!
Particularly the “Have you seen one org that isn’t empty?” could be a great incentive to go check out the next closest org and get that pitiful comparison which would by itself be fodder for digging in deeper as to appearance and actuality of the Co$.
Greta
elgin7 | April 4, 2012 at 9:57 pm |

Stoic-1
Cool on these great sign messages that should indeed be used!
Particularly appealing was “Have you seen one org that isn’t empty?”. That could be enough incentive to make a quick trip to the next closest org and give that pitiful comparison that is needed to dig deeper into the growing abyss of appearance versus actuality of the Co$.
Greta
Laura Ann | April 4, 2012 at 9:58 pm |

Mike,
I don’t know what to say, except thank you! Because of your good heart and care you bear your soul. You are strong beyond belief for the rest of us.
hadley | April 4, 2012 at 10:02 pm |

I appreciate your interview Mike and validated certain concerns I myself had.
What I don’t get is how come any one can go so long without communcation to and from the family to any one within INT Base , also without any one outside never noticing any oddness of never seeing their family .
Another question Since the blown up on D Cooks statement in court What evidence of change / if there has been of any removal of that hole as its called,
I saw the video on The birthday 2012 for LRH /Shocking image of Guillaume
God help him.
happybaby89 | April 4, 2012 at 10:15 pm |

No kidding.
The essence of ESMB in one sentence:

LRH stole all tech from others but it is HIS tech that does not work and is harmful.

I wish I could be as smart and logical as these guys. (sarcasm)
sierramark | April 4, 2012 at 10:21 pm |

Mike,

Thanks for recounting that.

Your walk around London reminded me of my own similar incident. I blew and took a drive up the California coast, paid cash for motel rooms as I was sure security was on my heels.

But, despite some anxiety at being “captured”, it was the most liberating few days I ever had.

You and Dan Koon describe the gradual elimination of freedom and self-determinism that one can experience in the Sea Org. For me, making a decision to disconnect from that and move on, was such a release. I just felt like life was being poured back into me.. that I could do whatever I wanted to do. I remembered how much fun I had before entering Miscavige’s twisted universe. Just walking around enjoying the sunshine without fear of some reprisal for enjoying myself.

Once I had that real taste of freedom, I knew there was no turning back. I did go back to route out “standardly” after some months of Sec Checking, but this that primarily because I didn’t want my auditor, Sandy Wilhere to get in trouble as she sec checked me before I blew. I knew that I could not be convinced to return.

Anyway.. here we are my brother. Glad to know you and thanks for helping others to know the truth. Best for you and your family.

Mark McKinstry
sierramark | April 4, 2012 at 10:23 pm |

Excellent point.
The Oracle | April 4, 2012 at 10:24 pm |

Lovely post Michael. You speak for many of us.
Karen B | April 4, 2012 at 10:25 pm |

Outstanding interview, brutally honest! I couldn’t help but laugh over Kathy coming to Florida to “gently” persuade you to return.

Congratulations to you and Christie on your upcoming baby boy…I don’t know how I missed that!
Laura Ann | April 4, 2012 at 10:43 pm |

Tyler,
I don’t know DM personally but, I believe you. DM is his own worst enemy.
elgin7 | April 4, 2012 at 10:53 pm |

Well said Tony!
Peeling those False Data (in this context of aberration) right off.
Re Steve’s A-E steps and application thereof does anyone know the EXACT LRH tape where he said “the dynamics ARE help”?
Greta P.S.: I only just now got back to being able to post here, finally!
Zephyr | April 4, 2012 at 10:59 pm |

Oops! Should be Zephyr….
Greta
mrinder | April 4, 2012 at 11:00 pm |

Mark — thanks. I do consider you my brother… Hope you can make it in July. Mike
mrinder | April 4, 2012 at 11:02 pm |

Hadley — there is communication, but it is controled and monitored. Almost exlusively by letter, occasionally phone calls. As for the Hole, it’s been given a “PR face” and some of the most degrading physical aspects have been changed, but the mental prison still exists.
mrinder | April 4, 2012 at 11:03 pm |

Thanks Laura. Love to you and Mike.
mrinder | April 4, 2012 at 11:07 pm |

Good going Vic!
mrinder | April 4, 2012 at 11:14 pm |

Jim – thanks. Profound as ever!

Its interesting you refer to PABs 15 and 16 as they follow in the footsteps of The Unauthorized Biography of David Miscavige by L. Ron Hubbard — PAB 13.
mrinder | April 4, 2012 at 11:16 pm |

Thanks Roger.
mrinder | April 4, 2012 at 11:16 pm |

Me too Bryan.
mrinder | April 4, 2012 at 11:18 pm |

Claudio and Renata,

Grazie. Your words always bring great comfort, knowing you are there, fighting the good fight.
mrinder | April 4, 2012 at 11:20 pm |

Michael — Thanks so much. Compliments from you have a special place in my heart.
mrinder | April 4, 2012 at 11:21 pm |

Carol — its OK, no need to get mad. Just get even. 😉
mrinder | April 4, 2012 at 11:22 pm |

How right you are!
mrinder | April 4, 2012 at 11:23 pm |

Thankyou so much.
mrinder | April 4, 2012 at 11:23 pm |

Thanks G. And nice to see you here! HOw about a book of swearing?
Tom Gallagher | April 4, 2012 at 11:24 pm |

Thanks Mike for baring a bit of your soul through the interview with Ortega. This thing, which is the purge of the miscavige nightmare, continues unabated due to your efforts and those of other good folks.

Not to be trite, but, I’ll say ‘you da man’.

My best wishes to you and yours,

Sincerely,

Tom
mrinder | April 4, 2012 at 11:25 pm |

Dan — I plagiarized the hell out of you. It was you that made the point about the incremental degradation in response to my post “Why We Stay?”
Jim Logan | April 4, 2012 at 11:29 pm |

🙂
mrinder | April 4, 2012 at 11:30 pm |

Sinar — yes, you are right. That is his game, manipulate a hidden data line to convince everyone he is the only one who knows and does what LRH wants. Speaking of the second coming, I would not be surprised if he doesnt promote the rumor that he is in fact the body that is carrying out LRH current intention. Then he will start telling people that there was a secret LRH despatch that explained that he will come back and start speaking through Dave.
mrinder | April 4, 2012 at 11:32 pm |

Thanks Randy. Appreciate your thoughts on this.
isene | April 4, 2012 at 11:33 pm |

That would be cool. With your vocabulary, I bet it could span a couple of hundred pages 😉

But seriously – you should write a book on something.
Rory Medford | April 4, 2012 at 11:38 pm |

nice job mike

spread these videos far and wide so others wont fall victim to C of S shenanigans
Captain Bob | April 4, 2012 at 11:48 pm |

““The Sea Organization is a religious fraternity and not a legal body”

Sure, it may be all brotherly love in a frat and “volunteered staff members”, but there’s still that legal aspect. RTC owns the LEGAL trademarks. So being A=A=A here on my part, why all you brothers in the SO are owned by RTC.
Andrew Organ | April 5, 2012 at 12:15 am |

Thanks, Dean. Good summary.
Captain Bob | April 5, 2012 at 12:15 am |

“but the mental prison still exists.”

Even in public orgs but not as extreme. After listening to your interview, thank you for that, I got an overview of it all, why we stayed and just didn’t leave, and there’s lots of reasons, the thoughts are just so fast with tons of data one is looking at, at any given moment, it is hard to convey them.

But, what I saw was as you say, it’s very insidious and from the moment one steps into the CO$ to when he leaves. Staff in the SO wherever they are in the world, there is no real communication channels or just free comm channels. If ones sees an outpoint and mentions it, it could be construed as natter and critical, thus you get sec checked or RPF’d. And a staff member having seen others get RPF’d, why they keep quiet and keep the thoughts to themselves. And thus KSW can’t even be applied.
So staff can’t even talk amongst themselves as the sec checks would reveal their thoughts (this becomes mental prison). And because staff cannot freely communicate between themselves, dots never get connected. Time, place, form and events never get connected or as-is’d for staff. And when they do, why it is from PR data, not true data. Round and round it goes.
ExScnDude | April 5, 2012 at 12:17 am |

Mike, great interview. As a former staff member in a CL V org (15 years) I’d like to put my two cents in on “Why we stay.” I speak from my own reality, so if this doesn’t apply to you feel free to reject at will.

I think that “Why we stay” has to do with the relationship between the level of responsibility one has agreed to take on and what one considers to be an overt. This is from the PDCs but I can’t begin to say which lecture. In one of those lectures, Ron talks about the housewife who has no overts because she hasn’t taken any responsibility for anything outside of her small universe. Perhaps you recall that one.

For me, it was only after having agreed to take responsibility for the state of the planet that sins of omission became significant. When one is attempting to be supremely responsible, then in a weird way, one can be made guilty of just about anything one has failed to do. LOL At least that’s how I see it. I’m trying to say that a person who is really making an all out effort to be responsible is somewhat open to that kind of an attack from an SP.

Making others guilty of overts is totally suppressive behavior.

Thankfully, for me anyway, Scientology auditing had the power to undo this kind of thing. I remember when I went Clear and totally realized that for my life, it was “me driving the bus” – if you know what I mean – something like the magnetic poles shifting in my own reality from mostly effect to mostly cause.

I realized at that point that no one else has the power to make me guilty and that I was not going to be assigned cause for someone else’s problem. In reality it was more like “Screw you – not my problem. If you want to make me cause for every little thing that goes wrong in your universe, then perhaps I should be your boss.”

I cause my own life and other folks are cause over their lives whether they realize it or not.

I disconnected from organized Scientology shortly after some recently “trained” (think “indoctrinated”) OEC/FEBC grads arrived back in the org: one in Miscavige’s valence, one who came back acting like someone who had been a holacaust survivor (a 1000 yard stare), and one who came back overwhelmed into glee. It was David Miscavige’s proxy that started right up with making others guilty of overts of omission. And most of us bought it because after all we were big beings being responsible.

Having spent quite a bit of time training and auditing in Sea Org Orgs over my career, I have some idea of the level of commitment and assumed responsibility that even the average Sea Org member takes on.

To be subject to the constant “make guilty of” by a bonifide SP who is your direct senior not to mention the supreme leader of Scientologty…. well, I can just barely imagine how horrible that must have been.

So, congrats on disconnecting from that. I hope you have a great life from now on. You deserve it, Dude.
Captain Bob | April 5, 2012 at 12:31 am |

Mike, after seeing the interview part with that guy putting you on the basics to do each book in two days. And making you do A-E for being an SP.

All I can say is that guy is truely crazy. It is unbelievable.

He can’t even apply the basic scientology of well fed and plenty of sleep to embark upon such a project.
Captain Bob | April 5, 2012 at 12:34 am |

Here is a test for all lurkers here. Maybe you don’t believe people posting here are individuals. Well, do a post and see if Marty will post your comment.
Captain Bob | April 5, 2012 at 12:39 am |

oh, I’m using mathematics, not held down 7.
Andrew Organ | April 5, 2012 at 12:41 am |

Mike, thank you for this interview with Tony!

There is a lot of truth in it and not just for SO members,
but for Class V Org personnel too. I spent nearly half of my life on staff
and now I am an SP. Cool. What you said rings the bell on so many levels.

I am on ESMB, WWP, VV and here. I think it’s important to be able to see/
assume different viewpoints, while working on sorting one’s life out after
being in/devoting oneself to a cult for so long.

I really like how you think that true friendship is very important.
I think most of the critics of Scientology will agree with you too.

Best wishes to you, Christie and a little boy!
Captain Bob | April 5, 2012 at 12:42 am |

why, because when you leave like Debbie Cook did, why you have to sign another contract because you know too much, and you are paid to keep quiet. Say, did the new contract Debbie Cook signed, void the billion year contract?

LRH says when you die, all sins are forgiven, it’s in the chaplain hat pack or somewhere.
Captain Bob | April 5, 2012 at 12:45 am |

so I forgive you LRH for any sins or crimes you may have done.
OneFlyingFromTheCuckoosNest | April 5, 2012 at 1:06 am |

Now that rings true for me. And very well said. Thank you.
Bela | April 5, 2012 at 1:17 am |

Thank you Mike for this great interview. When you first mentioned the “why we stay” comment a few weeks back, I knew it was a subject that would run deep to a lot of people as it hit me to the heart at that time. What you said in the interview expands on it even more…and it was so real to me, when you were having a hard time describing it, even tho you lived it, because…it IS so insane and hard to believe. That gradient degradation is so very insidious. As an auditor, I was stuck between feeling like I should be one of the most valuable beings on the planet and oh so proud of my ability, yet at the same time, being a screwup for one silly reason or another.
I used to think this was only an issue that the staff experienced, and that when I went off staff, it would be better. I would be able to contribute and be acknowledged for it. I found that not to be true. So, then I thought it was because of the fact I was EX staff, that must be why…my having left staff put me in the category of dumping my responsibility on others.
Well…come to find…that is simply the way it is. The gradient degradation IS the product that DM is going for…hr runs it from the top and it filters down thru the whole structure of the “Church”…he simply can’t have people that are true to themselves and powerful in nature.
Jim Logan | April 5, 2012 at 1:34 am |

Absolutely Vic. You’ve got my mail too. Don’t hesitate to write.
Jim Logan | April 5, 2012 at 1:39 am |

I’m going to report you to the Inappropriate Laughter MAA. Forthwith.
Lisa Hamilton | April 5, 2012 at 1:41 am |

Hello Ronnie, I certainly remember the Logs Unit!!! And you! Despite the stress to get the street done on time, that was one fun project. We had a great team there. I was the D/Design and Planning Off. My senior was Paul (can’t remember his last name). Jack Kruchko and I wrote and ran the actual production program. Thanks for bringing back some good memories. Seems that you are doing well. We are too! Lisa
Lisa Hamilton | April 5, 2012 at 1:42 am |

You are right, Mike. I did not look at it that way before. I should probably share more of the PAC experiences – perhaps it will help others go free.
Karen#1 | April 5, 2012 at 1:51 am |

Mike Rinder ~~
Thank you for these interviews now embedded into Sea Org history, mirrored on Your Tube, cross posted to other boards for the world to digest who top execs who give the best years of their life are treated. You were there and you lived it.
I think I have thanked you publicly in the past but will do so again.
You helped me heal my Sea Org atrocities by just being there, acknowledging and filling in the blanks. Wow, you handled in 5 hours what 250 hours at $7500 an hour could not and did not handle. Marty and you changed my life as I stepped out from DM toxicity and I will always thank you for that.
All good wishes and bright blessings to you for your new baby soon-to-be born
baby !
love/Karen
OneFlyingFromTheCuckoosNest | April 5, 2012 at 1:53 am |

“Actually it is not important what rules they’re surrounded by as long as there is free communication amongst the members of that family or group. And if there is free communication amongst the members of that group, their affinity is sufficiently high to take the shocks and hammers and pounds of life.”

…”But on a self-supportive, mutual co-supportive basis, people have better chances of making it than alone.”

…”When the state comes along and tries to supplant the family with barracks, watch out. Somebody has Man down to a criminal level.”

by Ron Hubbard from Tape Lecture 6001C02 ‘Marrige and sex’.
Tom | April 5, 2012 at 2:05 am |

There is a most excellent LRH lecture (7 NOV 52 FORCE AS HOMO SAPIENS AND AS THETAN – RESPONSIBILITY ) that covers EXACTLY what has happened to that dude.

“And so you get this fellow going over the cycle of
designating responsibility, delegating responsibility. The
next point is, is finding out that it’s not being carried
out. And the next point immediately after that — he has to
do it himself. And there’s where “Do it himself” comes in
on the track. And the next point after “Got to do it
himself,” he’s in a state of collapse. What’s he doing?
He’s handling force. He’s giving away force.

How in the name of common sense can a thetan — now, let’s
be rational about this — how can a thetan manufacture some
force and then give it to another thetan to use? Well,
that’s utterly idiotic, isn’t it? Any thetan can
manufacture all the force he wants himself. Why, in the
name of common sense, should he delegate it or give it to
somebody else?”
Great lecture, highly recommended.

And Mike, I must say you are looking good. Congratulations on the new arrival!
Grasshopper | April 5, 2012 at 2:14 am |

Mike Rinder, I love you man! Excellent interview. Your comments on the basic decency of SO members was truly great, and very true. People really need to remember that signing an SO contract means total commitment, and is a very noble thing. For DM to twist the nobility and humility of SO members into this twisted thing he is doing pisses me off to no end.

Really, really great job, Mike.
OneFlyingFromTheCuckoosNest | April 5, 2012 at 2:29 am |

“state ” = Church of Scientology, happening a long time now, since DM took control.
Scott Campbell | April 5, 2012 at 2:31 am |

Mike,

That’s the most bald-faced extemporaneously-spoken truth I’ve heard since The Truth Rundown.

I’m so glad to see you continuing to gain perspective on your (and our) collective experiences with the Church of Scientology under David Miscavige. That you continue to evolve and become more and more Pan-Determined is a testament to your personal integrity and responsibility across the Dynamics.

Abraham Lincoln famously said: “Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man’s character, give him power.”

Well, we know who you are, don’t we Mike?

Hey, before I get too mushy here, I just want to say one thing: Jenny Rostig used to think it was her job to keep me awake too!
happybaby89 | April 5, 2012 at 2:48 am |

Mr Fox
No worries you are a fine fellow. Maybe you are right and the hard core critics are all OSA agents. Their zealotry in trying to convince others that their own conclusions based on personal experience are wrong sure sounds like some of the people I worked with in the church.
That is probably why this crowd finds them not so friendly. No one likes to hang out with an old boss who abused you.

Reply ↓
Wisher | April 5, 2012 at 2:48 am |

Mike: Thanks for taking the time to sit with Tony and give this very honest and real interview. Days like today–when something as true as this is published in the media–are days that I put another notch in the belt of destruction that Miscavige wears and cannot remove. You are strong for continuing the fight in the face of what you have endured. Cheers, friend~
mrinder | April 5, 2012 at 2:55 am |

Scott — thanks. Good to know Jenny was so useful on the ship too. 🙂 Mike
The Oracle | April 5, 2012 at 2:56 am |

With all of the news unfolding on the net over the last two years about David Miscavige’s “normal habits and routines” up at Int, and his reactions to suppress the flow of information (vital information), one thing has become perfectly clear. David thought, “What happens at Int stays at Int”.

Does he presume he is in Las Vegas?
mrinder | April 5, 2012 at 2:58 am |

Thanks Karen. I count my blessings that you are my friend (as I sure as hell never want you as an enemy :)) We are big K#1 fans in our household!
Betsy | April 5, 2012 at 3:02 am |

Unfortunately, what senior is going to admit to any abuse and risk excommunication from their life long family and friends in the Church, where would they go? In the cut throat cult of Miscavige, they would be left out in the cold, not an option for the elderly. Would this elderly persons children be willing to risk a declare on behalf of their Mom or Dad? Most of these children have been too inculcated to stand on their own 2 feet. It’s a conundrum with no easy solution.
Espiritu | April 5, 2012 at 3:13 am |

Dear Mike,
I am a bit ashamed to admit that I have probably arrogantly had in the back of my mind the consideration that “I would never take that shit” and “How could anyone allow themselves to be brought to such a degraded state that they would do so?”. You answered and explained those questions very eloquently in your interview.
Thanks for painting a picture of the mind-set of SO members who have endured this kind of treatment and what went on in your universe. You explained the step-by-step gradual process that occurred. I understand a lot better now. So, as a Scientologist who has never been in the SO, I believe that I now have a better understanding of how it happened. I have also dropped the certainty that “that would NEVER have happened to me”. It is very difficult to honestly say “never”. I wasn’t there and didn’t experience years of being inured to those insanities while at the same time working very hard to forward the great purpose of bringing Scientology and Dianetics to the world.
However, what I do believe we can all say now is, “Never again”.
And let’s just all spread that altruistic purpose you spoke of, too.
I really appreciate all your years of continual dedication towards that purpose.

Sincerely,
Espiritu
Andrew Organ | April 5, 2012 at 3:19 am |

Dan, I think it is really important to focus on exposing mental,
spiritual and physical abuses in relation to “church” of Scientology.
Most VV’ commenters do just that. I don’t think “nearly all” of them
“are a bunch of fucking morons”, Dan. In fact, most of them are not.
I really didn’t see that coming from you. But ok. I still respect you.
Ronnie Bell | April 5, 2012 at 3:23 am |

Hi Lisa ~ that would be Paul Burkhardt who was your senior (funny how I can still remember so many of the old hands’ names).

Yes, we’re doing well. My wife and I (who I had married about a year before leaving Renos) have four kids (15 to 7), and have run our own business since late ’97. We left California and moved to North Texas in late 2005. It’s a great place, and we have no regrets or homesickness.

Good to see you out here with the white hats! Looks like we’ve got ourselves a new project, but this time, we don’t have the suppressive pressures of DM’s unreal TMs and budgets to make us crazy 🙂
Ronnie Bell | April 5, 2012 at 3:31 am |

I ARC break at the thought that Heber doesn’t know in his heart of hearts, that thousands of upstanding Scientologists would crawl over broken glass to take care of him, should he ever decide to leave.

It’s just unreal to me that he doesn’t feel our thoughts from all around the globe – no matter how suppressed he is.
Mike Hobson | April 5, 2012 at 3:33 am |

Ouch!.. Oh, OUCH!!!!

Ooh, that’s gonna leave a mark!

Michael A. Hobson
Independent Scientologst
Betsy R | April 5, 2012 at 3:47 am |

Mike,
Our non Scn relatives have a really hard time connecting to the stories as being real, afterall Tom Cruise, Travolta, et al, are involved…I mean can it really be that bad and are these made up stories by a bunch of disgruntled apostates? What I find so great about these videos is that it fills the void and brings about understanding about how over a long period of time one becomes numb and will resort to such savageness to survive. VWD, these are vids I will be emailing to relatives to help fill that void.
Grasshopper | April 5, 2012 at 3:55 am |

Well said, X. I love: “If you want to make me cause for every little thing that goes wrong in your universe, then perhaps I should be your boss.”

Of course, if I were his boss, I’d fire him ;).

Seriously, it is true. At the end of the day, we are responsible for our own condition, and people can truly push that button hard. “You’re sick? You pulled it in, you MF’er. You fell off the ladder? (after being up 36 hours straight on some Hill 10 or another) Well, pulled that in too. This city is not clear yet? Well, you F’er, you are slacking.”

You have the guts to put on the “Boots in the Sky” and you get this other asshole who gives you hell for not walking fast enough. And, you know it really would be great if you could walk faster, so you sort of take it.
Peter McMahon | April 5, 2012 at 3:57 am |

I knew MIke when I worked at Flag in Clearwater from ’78-82. I forget some of the details like was Mike CO CMO CW or was it Bitty…. all I know is that for a while in 1979 and 1980 all of the marketing bureau work was sent to LRH for approval. If he didn’t like something, CMO CW would descend on us like gangbusters to find out why we were trying to destroy Scientology with our bad promotional flyers, etc. My favorite was when I had designed a flyer for Hubbard’s book, “Have You Lived Before This Life” and I had Napoleon, CLeopatra and a few other figures on the cover. Hubbard was livid. Evidently I had multiple cliche’s on the cover that would destroy international book sales (the comment was, Lunatic asylums are full of people who think they are Napoleon, Cleopatra, etc.) More than once Mike would show up at my office with two messengers in tow and drag me off to Qual (Qualifications Dept) to find out why I was trying to ruin Scientology.

I liked Mike. He was always a decent guy about it, never made it personal.

We were under tremendous pressure even then. In Qual, we had an auditor who was a wonderful person, full of life, insouciant. David McCarthy. I really liked this guy. But David had epilepsy. We were all on such a horrible schedule that I think the lack of sleep and stress would set him up for an epileptic fit. Several times, no sooner than Mike and his entourage of messengers would deliver me to David’s door…. he would start Sec Checking me and then the eyes would glaze over in a semi-panic and he’d stand up and then keel over while I called for help.

Mike, I love what you said about Sea Org Members and what a decent bunch of people they are. But you are right on the money with your comparison to “Lord of the Flies.” Too true.

So glad you’re out and that you and Marty have done so much to expose the Cult of DM.

Wishing you all the best,

Peter McMahon
Tony Dephillips | April 5, 2012 at 3:59 am |

Lol. That’s what I love about you Jim, your’e so serious! 🙂
Ronnie Bell | April 5, 2012 at 4:18 am |

The gradient degradation IS the product that DM is going for…he runs it from the top and it filters down thru the whole structure of the “Church”…he simply can’t have people that are true to themselves and powerful in nature.

I’m an opinionated, wordy sumbitch, and it’s really hard to make me speechless, but that sentence stopped me cold. Those are the precise mechanics that I witnessed during my nearly 10 years of working for the Sea Org.

I worked as a hired construction pro on the major church projects from 1988 to late 1997. At its height, the renovations team had over 100 hired construction professionals, all Scientologists, working on the projects. We were a very OT group, both collectively, and individually. You almost never saw a more ‘make it go right’ team of people (I say almost, in deference to present company).

The projects we tackled were tough (and huge) by anyone’s standards, but they were made even tougher by the arbitrary TMs and finance constraints that we were forced to deliver under. Talk about a game. We NEVER had enough time or money to pull off the miracles that became our modus operandi, but somehow, we always did. In those years, I saw (and performed) miracles that I’ve witnessed nowhere else. I saw Sea Org and hired people pull off things that violated every known law of the physical universe. Routinely. Our intention was so strong, that it broke through the most solid agreements and individual bank imaginable. If any of you ever went to any of those huge ribbon-cutting ceremonies back in the 90’s, just know that it was never supposed to happen. It simply was not possible, yet there it was. On TM, and within budget.

I say all that to preface the ugly cost of what we produced. Over the near decade that I performed above my pay grade, I watched a lot of wonderful, able beings, be destroyed by the pressure cooker game we played. It wasn’t uncommon for some totally dependable veteran to refuse to sign on for the next project, and some even collapsed midway through major evolutions. I’ve talked to veteran ‘reno techs’ who told me how they’d gotten lots of auditing to run out all the engrams we endured. I watched a lot of vets have their willingness to help be squashed into aloof individuation. The level of sacrifices across the dynamics were extreme for everyone who participated.

And yet, it didn’t have to be that way. We all knew it, but could never put our finger on exactly where all of the crazy was coming from. Every time my personal deduction ran to the top of the org board, I dismissed it as unthinkable. That, of course, left me in a perpetual state of unknowingness, and with an inability to spot the SP. There had to be one, because there were just too many people going nuts around me for there not to be one – and they were going nuts, because we were being forced to achieve the near-impossible for arbitrary reasons.

It’s only now, that it’s become clear to me that the suppress was indeed coming straight from the top of the org board. I wasn’t so crazy after all.
dankoon | April 5, 2012 at 4:49 am |

It must be nice to have license to dramatize one’s fantasies against DM but just substitute Mike’s or Marty’s names for Miscavige’s. Good point, Marty.
iamvalkov | April 5, 2012 at 4:53 am |

ExScnDude, great post. I can really relate to that idea that the more responsibility a person tries to accept or has pushed on him, the more he can be made to feel he is failing by overts of omission in particular!
Jim Logan | April 5, 2012 at 4:55 am |

Espiritu,
Well expressed mate.

One thing; on “never again”, that will end up a trap as much as anything as you gotta put there what you resist and there you go, building up the ridge. Better to be willing to experience anything easily. You can as-is that way 🙂

Engram banks are formed on “never again”. Not good. Engram banks. The true ability to confront makes any part of life just another bit o’ fun for an immortal being.
dankoon | April 5, 2012 at 5:05 am |

Well, no one has a monopoly on truth. Others only help us realize what we already know, like you did for me in this interview.
dankoon | April 5, 2012 at 5:13 am |

Mark, I know the feeling of liberation you are talking about. The day I blew I happened upon a flea market about 10 miles away from the base and spent the day hanging out there because I thought security would be on the roads looking for me. Then in the late afternoon I went an lay in a grassy field and watched Golden Hour as the colors deepened and the sun set. What a feeling of freedom.
theakman | April 5, 2012 at 5:28 am |

It is fascinating what shared information does to as-is incidents. “Rinder”

Ain’t that the damn truth.
theakman | April 5, 2012 at 5:32 am |

What a beautiful acknowledgment.
Li'll bit of stuff | April 5, 2012 at 5:47 am |

Mike, my long time admiration of you, has just cranked up a
couple dozen more notches, after watching you not only
recounting the savage lunacy of this inhuman creature gone
totally insane, but showing why it should be institutionalized
in solitary confinement, a la Hannibal Lecter and definitely deprived of any access to capital,outside communication, or
any other means of getting back on ANY comm lines that
would allow it to innervate or regenerate itself in any way
shape or form, AGAIN! NEVER, NEVER, NEVER AGAIN!!!

What, amazes me even more, Mike and I don’t think I’m
misreading this, is the absence of any obvious signs of
hatred, in you, that would surely manifest itself in any less
compassionate person, going through that torture!

You truly, truly are …. a remarkable human being…. and
a wonderful father figure to your soon to be born son!!

Great times ahead to you, Christie and Li’ll guy.

Thanks also for sharing your outragious sense of humour
it sure helps lighten any burdens, and cracks most of us
up too!

Roll on , sweet future without Miscavige, sun’ll shine agin.
The same old LDW | April 5, 2012 at 6:13 am |

Pleeeeeeeeze share, Lisa.

I know the basic scene on what happened with Antia and I, but what on earth were they thinking? I mean, how can you get declared for writing a KR?

Les Warren
Oasis for Personal Freedom | April 5, 2012 at 6:27 am |

LOL
Mariella | April 5, 2012 at 6:28 am |

Lisa, were you also involved with the church’s Human Rights section? If so, I, as one of the public, used to report to you on our human rights activities for Persian/Iran.
ingrid Smith | April 5, 2012 at 6:40 am |

Mike-You have very calmly and intelligently explained what has happened.
From LRH on Entrapmenet vs Communication he wrote something very interesting “Theoretically, you could imprison the person sufficiently long that he would think that his prison was the most desirable place that he was ever in.”
E.J. Croughs | April 5, 2012 at 6:41 am |

In the HGC’s it was about the most destructive alteration of all, wiping out all metered Church auditing. What now passes for auditing in the Church winds any pc up with more BPC and makes any auditor question the Tech and his own skills.
one of those who see | April 5, 2012 at 7:01 am |

Mike, thank you. Watching the videos I could see that you were so There. Your communication was real. Here is a real man telling the truth. No fake gold columns, no set patterned speech.
I was discussing your interview with a friend tonight and thought of a couple of other points.
You had no space. No space to get exterior to the scene and see it for what it was. And you and Marty and so many others didn’t join the SO at 30 after living as an adult out in the world for a period of time. You were kids in a very enclosed world and that world became more and more suppressive bit by bit over time. You were in the ultimate theta trap.
I am so happy you are free. I love that you say and do what You think is the right thing. I happen to agree that, that is the right thing! Christie and i know each other. I am so happy for both you!! Happy that you have each other, Shane and a little one on the way.
Hey Christie, you got one of the good ones! And Mike did too! Love you guys.
hadley | April 5, 2012 at 7:57 am |

Thank you as I guessed . I admire your courage.and how you express yourself.It was felt and I hope people understand more now.
George | April 5, 2012 at 8:58 am |

Jim,
I heard that all the time while I had been inside Scientology. I am, I am, I am. Maybe I am the only person in the world. No? I had inside Scientology teachers. They did help me a lot to read the right lines, change viewpoint a bit here and there, showed me things you cannot read in a book. Real spiritual teachers (male and most of them female). You cannot sit down alone and read all what LRH had written or spoken and make it to OT. If it would be all me then we would not need Scientology. Scientology is a group activity. If we do not help each other we cannot make it. No one. That has been forgotten since the mid 80ies. You never could and never can buy OT. Not a single one ability. And you cannot buy wisdom. That is the „alone“, „it is all me“ viewpoint that you can buy it. We need to help each other. Even if someone makes mistakes or looks like that he cannot make it cause of his lack of effort or whatever. Or because he is „under the radar“. You know all that „quali-fying“ statements that „difference-iates“.
RD | April 5, 2012 at 10:40 am |

Well, what Mike says about people becoming ruthless in order to survive reminds me exactly what happened on concentrations camps, nazis or soviets (more soviet with the brainwashing and confession of “crimes” against Stalin etc…, Miscavige is really this kind of a “leader”).
windhorse | April 5, 2012 at 11:01 am |

Mike – thanks for this terrific interview and to Tony Ortega for not just doing it but posting it.

I have to say it was tough to watch. Having lived through my own hell, I could see when you were “reliving it” by recounting it and it was, as I said, tough to watch.

Karen #1 (I’m her big fan too!) said it best — without you and Marty and what you are brining to the light – my own understanding of myself vis a vis scientology probably would not have occurred …

Moreover, without this blog my desire to start re-reading LRH would never have happened.

Again – thanks for all you do.

Love,
WH
PS: Still hoping to see you, Christie, and your new baby in July
CowboyPoet | April 5, 2012 at 11:05 am |

Mike,
Thank you very much. And Tony, thank you too.
It’s really such an effective peice–the way you’ve broken it up in segments with subtitle buttons—pure genius!
These are going to be disseminated and referrred to.
The ole PR Maestro is at it again!
Dean
Harry Potter | April 5, 2012 at 11:33 am |

I think you mean 1996. Not 2006.
Dean Fox | April 5, 2012 at 12:19 pm |

I wouldn’t say all the hardcore critics are OSA, I expect there will still be some who were damaged by the church of scientology who, like ex-smokers, are quite zealous about poking holes in scientology.

There will also still be those who like poking holes in beliefs in general; I confess to being like that one time. Now I only do it when someone of belief disagrees with my atheist views and tries to convince me of their beliefs.

I also have a thing about creationism being taught as a science in so much as it’s a scientific duty to cricise and poke holes in scientific theories, that’s how science evolves.
cf33 | April 5, 2012 at 12:30 pm |

Mike your interview is very good. Help me a lot because I though I am the only with disagreements. I am talking from a Ex SO view point. I was in Taiwan went actually decide to end with the corporate church. As you say is not easy decision but when you see it for yourself become more clear. And become the right decision.
I would like to see the all interview without cuts.
windhorse | April 5, 2012 at 12:48 pm |

When you die, all sins are forgiven —

I find that hard to believe that LRH said that. Seems to fly in the face of the tech on past lives and time track overts etc.

Perhaps you misunderstood or just wanted to say that to then say you had forgiven LRH – kinda covert I’m thinkin’

WH
windhorse | April 5, 2012 at 1:12 pm |

Jim: So perfectly true. Just about the worse thing I ever said was “never again” — so not only did that “never again” happen, it was WAY worse than before. Too much vested in “never again” so when it collapsed much more was pulled in.

Two rules for happy living: Be willing to experience anything … Cause only those things that others can experience easily

I never understood the first one when I was actively involved in scientology – there was just SO much I couldn’t experience and wasn’t WILLING to experience.

I get it now. NOT being willing to experience anything is what causes suffering because things WILL happen that aren’t what we would like to happen, so we resist them – which makes us unhappier and the spiral swirls down from there.

Thanks for this comment.

Love,
WH
TheWidowDenk | April 5, 2012 at 1:22 pm |

Like
SKM | April 5, 2012 at 1:49 pm |

“LRH says when you die, all sins are forgiven, it’s in the chaplain hat pack or somewhere.”

Huh?
It’s the other way around. If you come this life time, your sins from previous lifes do not count. (Nobody will be after you for things you’ve done lifetimes before.)
But however this has nothings to do with the case (your own case and it’s “karmic” manifestations – meaning, you still could pull something in for the things you’ve done despite of forgiveness of any authority what-so-ever.
TheWidowDenk | April 5, 2012 at 1:50 pm |

Very much enjoyed the video presentations. Well done Mike! Otherwise, I was left quite speechless …
Lucy James | April 5, 2012 at 1:57 pm |

Thank you (and Dan, Sinar, etc) for educating us here.

I read your posts and comments with interest undiminished.

One of life’s treasures lies in learning and I have definitely learned a great deal from this blog.

In my view many staff around the world continued to work in an ever increasing “insane” environment. What spurred any one on was “duty”. There was a calling and a mission and an obligation. As the storm of insanity increased it was “duty” to carry on.

DM was a master at cutting comm lines (husbands and wives not allowed to speak to each other) so the day after day of darkness appeared to be only “my” darkness. Meanwhile DM sang his crazy song “I will crush the fearless and insolent, for him I will loose my fury, and blind and buffet and beat; when his strength is spent I will leap on him from my ambush and crush him under my feet.”
SKM | April 5, 2012 at 2:04 pm |

Good points, I agree.
But this is quite what Jim said:
“You can be assisted, but it is only by your own efforts that you get there, if you do.”

BTW. Help is important in any school of wisdom or religion. But the first thing you need is the willingness of the individual to get there. Who truly is on his path to truth wil get all the help/signs/hints he needs.
Why do I need the truth at all?
I need it in order to acomplish a harmonious alignment.
HereNow | April 5, 2012 at 2:06 pm |

Mike, your interview left me near speechless for the longest time after I watched it. I was trying to muster something cogent in response. I never experienced the depths of insanity and pure concentrated suppression that you were subjected to, but the Hole was like a Black Hole that exerted an evil gravitational pull on the rest of the SO and its evil, even if not know fully, could be felt even from some distance. I honestly felt myself being sucked in its direction for more than three years, and just existing in the wide zone of enturbulence that surrounded it was in itself extremely debilitating. Ultimately I came to the conclusion that I would never have another period of real happiness if I remained in the SO and in orbit about the Hole and its SP originator, and further concluded that if I stayed I was going to die many years before my time. And I experience a mere fraction of what you did.
I have seen many nasty and ill-informed comments about you on other forums, such as you alluded to in your interview (“he hasn’t taken responsibility”, blah, blah, blah). These commentators have absolutely no duplication or understanding of what you went through, and consequently no understanding or duplication of who you are now. What do any of them think you are supposed to do, other than what you are doing? I don’t believe that any one of them could even walk where you walked, in your shoes, and come out of it even marginally intact. They have no concept of the strength it took to endure what you did endure, then be able to endure the trauma of walking away from it, and then still have the ability to cogently and rationally expose and oppose the evil that you were subjected to.
And while they are sniping at you on the one side, you the Miscavige death machine still trying to chew you up on the other side, with their Black PR, illegal surveillance and intimidiation tactics. And through all this your basic goodness and humanity shines through.
I am honored to know you, sir.
Bela | April 5, 2012 at 2:28 pm |

Right on Ronnie! It was always difficult to have the win in anything, even tho you and friends pulled off amazing OT things. At the end of the day, the win was overshadowed by the stress of the unreal targets, the push to do it anyway, the feeling of failure if you did not make it and knowing someone would let you know you had failed… by any outpoint, real or imagined, that became so all important. More and more this would build up. Then, the win just became, “I’m glad that’s done”…only to realize the cycle began anew with the next order of the day…unless you could figure a way to get out.
hadley | April 5, 2012 at 2:35 pm |

Yes Ronnie /Actually you touched the right buttons for me saying what you said as I couldn’t ever get the words before to express simliar emotions to understand or comprehend why nothing seems to get through to their minds, like ones thoughts of caring and wanting to help doesn’t get through, Its so black and blocked.TP is very hard to operate under such suppression.
TroubleShooter | April 5, 2012 at 2:37 pm |

Mike, Yo hear the information such as you gave in this interview with Tony really does help to run out the engram that had a duration of years for me . I remember that event and feeling relief to see a stable terminal (as you and Heber, Guillaume Lesevre and Marc Yager and Ray Mithoff weren’t making the same appearances at events and those appearances gave ME a feeling a security and team work of which I felt a part). On the other hand I was alarmed by your appearance as you looked so unhealthy at the time. The most valuable part of the unraveling of this clusterfu** for me is the validation of my perceptions that something was very, very wrong because my personal story of suppression was hell bent on trying to make me think I was imagining things and dubbing in and evaluating the data completely incorrectly. As this journey began and progressed it only helped me to gain back my confidence that I do know. I’m so glad to be able to tell you now that I’ve considered you my friend for decades.
Tom M | April 5, 2012 at 2:45 pm |

Harry, she is talking about 2006. 1996 is the earlier/similar implant date where Jennifer laid in the first DM mass implant.

ML Tom
Laura Ann | April 5, 2012 at 2:52 pm |

+1 windhorse
Ronnie Bell | April 5, 2012 at 2:54 pm |

Boy, is that an understatement. I got somewhere between 120 to 150 hours of ‘auditing’ at ASHO in 2005, and it nearly drove me stark raving mad. Not only was it robotic and devoid of natural ARC, it was done subsequent to my Clear state being de-certified from the outset. Going to the examiner after each session became a strange and interiorizing affair – me wondering what the hell he was looking at/waiting for, and wondering what the hell was wrong with me.

It got so bad, and I became so keyed in about the entire program, that after a while I couldn’t even be in ASHO’s building comfortably. I would wait in the LA org HGC, and get my sessions from the ASHO auditor in one of LA org’s auditing rooms. Even that only lasted maybe a couple of sessions. I was doing worse and worse and worse, and no one – I mean NO ONE was listening to me. Finally came a day that I just could not do it another single minute, and I told them that. No one came to my house. No one called me to gently persuade me to come back. No one did a thing about me choosing to abruptly end off that auditing.

On top of everything else that had happened, that confirmed to me that squirreling was occurring in the orgs. Everything about that cycle went sideways, and I banged around like a pinball for years afterwards.
Betsy R | April 5, 2012 at 2:57 pm |

How about signs like this:
David Miscavige is an SP.
DM hasn’t had a session in 23 years.
DM holds a copper rod for case gain.
DM beat me.
DM made Nelson lick the bathroom floor for punishment.
DM has squirreld the FN’s.
DM has altered policy.
DM has altered tech bulletins.
DM declared me for forwarding Debbie Cook’s email.
DM ordered his secretaryto break Debbie Cook’s finger.
DM tortures people.
DM has declared all upper mgmt.
DM has declared …(name the uppper mgmt people like ED Int, Snr C/s int,
Heber, etc..)
etc.
etc
etc.
Tom Gallagher | April 5, 2012 at 3:01 pm |

Mike, I found this bit Australian magic that I’ll dedicate to you.

Yeah, Mike Rinder is staying alive…….
Betsy R | April 5, 2012 at 3:04 pm |

See my comment at the bottom of this blog for some other ideas on protest signs, (it posted in the wrong spot) but they are directed at the source of the suppression.
happybaby89 | April 5, 2012 at 3:31 pm |

We seem to have the same world view.
Publius | April 5, 2012 at 3:37 pm |

Amazing writeup. You are a wordy sumbitch but you communicate so clearly and with such detail. Talk about stopping someone cold – that is what your description of the “pressure cooker game” did to me. Wow, is all I can say.
Ronnie Bell | April 5, 2012 at 4:41 pm |

Do you remember the scene in “The Shawshank Redemption” when Morgan Freeman’s character comments on the concept of freedom outside of prison? He says, “I’m an institutional man, now. These bars protect me from what’s outside.”

I’ve even seen the phenomenon at work in everyday life, such as a person who’s been working a dead end job for so long, that they can’t even contemplate doing anything better for a living.

People can definitely become comfortable in prisons of all sorts. It’s even more pronounced when you’re talking about someone who’s spent most of their life inside of a small, insular group such as the Sea Org.
martyrathbun09 | April 5, 2012 at 4:47 pm |

I know what you mean – from probably my second favorite movie. Kinda like this from my favorite movie:
annhowe | April 5, 2012 at 4:54 pm |

VWD on those products.

Would love to hear more on those Orig OT IV wins.
Carcha | April 5, 2012 at 5:43 pm |

You get those guys thinking that the survival of the church is senior to the product, so the purpose of the church is lost. With loss of purpose the admin scale falls apart and you get faulty goals, policies, programs, projects, orders, stats, down to faulty ideal scenes. Ethics require more and more force because they are flawed to begin with and instead of ethics, become simply abuse and punishment. Nice uniforms and spiffy buildings, Scns refusing to talk to anyone but themselves, lying about stats, orders, etc..

The huge mistake is confusing the organization, with auditing, with realization of truth. Scn is a path to the individual potential to greater perception of truth. The only one who can know anything, the only one who can assume responsibility, the only one who can establish control over his or her own life (choose his own friends, elect careers, set personal goals, nominate charities, experience satisfaction, smile, etc.), is that individual, himself. Aristotle in Nichomachean Ethics leads to a very interesting word: “Happiness”. “Truth is the exact consideration.” (contained in Axiom of Scn #38). Scn is like training wheels on a bicycle: you are expected to learn to ride without them.
Captain Bob | April 5, 2012 at 6:31 pm |

actually I think it is “debts” not sins to society are forgiven. I’ll have to see if I can find it.

I’m not sure why you wrote “kinda covert I’m thinkin” when I wrote I did forgive LRH and that statement by me is overt.

But no matter and who cares. I just want my friends free from the mind prison. And that is why I post, anything covert in that?
iamvalkov | April 5, 2012 at 8:17 pm |

“CommEv David Miscavige”
iamvalkov | April 5, 2012 at 8:40 pm |

windhorse, LRH did indeed speak words to that effect. I don’t have the reference handy, but it is in a lecture. He was talking about the considerations that go into making up the game.- the way society is set up – that a person is responsible until he goes insane or dies. It has to do with a being’s right to leave the game. The convention is that once he drops the body, his slate is wiped clean and he is allowed to start over again in a new life, from society’s point of view.

I believe this is the basic on the concept some Christians hold about being “born again”. A person who is “born again” is washed clean of all his past sins and starts a new life.

Any one can nail the exact lecture?
iamvalkov | April 5, 2012 at 8:51 pm |

In political terms from the Soviet age, there are “useful idiots”, “fellow travelers”, and “sympathizers”. One way or another, they are likely to be forwarding Miscavige’s agenda whether they are directly connected to OSA or not.
Axiom | April 5, 2012 at 9:09 pm |

OK – so I know something flew over my head just then.
Who is “Lloyd” anyway ?
Is that another word for Mike Rinder ?
Axiom | April 5, 2012 at 9:13 pm |

Great wins Les – it is soothing to the soul to hear good products are happening out here in the wild.
I am also very interested in the “Original OTIV” – have had some discussions with Jim Logan about it, and would like more data on it. Is there a good write-up that I can review discussing this topic ?
Axiom | April 5, 2012 at 9:22 pm |

+1
Axiom | April 5, 2012 at 9:31 pm |

Cool reflections – I can feel the TA blowing down 🙂
Dean Fox | April 5, 2012 at 9:59 pm |

Along similar lines:

If it ain’t fun, it ain’t scientology, it’s Miscavology.

Others, though wordy:

Doubt is a formula not to be avoided.

Do you lie to yourself? Why?

Independent Scientologist have freedom.

We love you.

Come out, we’re waiting to help you.

No one tells us who we can’t talk to.

No one tells us what we can’t read.

No one tells us how to think.

(Combine last 3 as list under “No one tells us:”)

Independent scientologist do it independently, (with a little help from their friends).

Independence is freedom.
Dean Fox | April 5, 2012 at 10:10 pm |

Check your local libraries for the basics

Getting on okay? Clear conscience? Why do u support abuse?

Not a slogan:

Could be an OSA who tried fair weather me but I was in direct comm with a woman claiming to be public who was happy with the church of scientology because while it may not be perfect it was trying to improve. She had a family, children, husband and none scientology friends; her daughters boy friend was none scientology. She didn’t contribute to flashy buildings or book drives and applied LRH financial advise with the registras who she claimed backed of respectfully. She also trashed the mailers and claimed not to have a clue who Debbie Cook was, though she told me she visit flag.

So OSA trying to fair weather me or genuine public with blinkers fully on?
mrinder | April 5, 2012 at 10:12 pm |

It’s the famous line from “The Shining” which has been posted here a few times. Jack Nicholson at the bar saying to the bartender: “Words, of wisdom Lloyd, words of wisdom.”
theakman | April 6, 2012 at 12:41 am |

I just observed something I hadn’t noticed before. Tom Cruise is in this guy’s valence too! Damn, almost eerie similarity.
Randall Cook | April 6, 2012 at 2:12 am |

Great interview Mike. I think that your statements in these videos really reflect the truth of what you and others went thru and what current SO members are still going thru. Thanks for sharing this with all of us.
Best, Randy
Axiom | April 6, 2012 at 4:15 am |

Ronnie,
You sound like my kinda guy.
I received a call at one point somewhere along the line to participate in those over-the-top renos cycles (as a networking specialist), and I just knew that were I to accept, that it would be a disaster for me.
The reason ? – you said it yourself: “for arbitrary reasons” – the reasons why these cycles are as insane as they are, are NOT acceptable reasons. They are made-up, insane, SUPPRESSIVE reasons, designed to create enterbulation, trouble, and to create havoc for those who have to “make it go right“.
I am hoping that we can meet up in July and bat the breeze a little…
Axiom | April 6, 2012 at 4:25 am |

Ahhh.
Thanks Mike. For everything.
Dean Fox | April 6, 2012 at 8:10 am |

Very good point.
Just Me | April 6, 2012 at 1:03 pm |

Mike,

A few days ago I watched your powerful videos with Tony O. and have been thinking about them ever since. Like the St. Pete Times’ “Truth Rundown” videos, their power comes from your willingness to put yourself in those awful moments you’re recounting, the specifics of your recollections, and your plain-as-day honesty and goodness.

Like Joshua’s trumpet blasts, your videos are cracking the walls of the Church of $cientology and helping people crawl through to freedom. Thank you so much.

JM
miscavigeisscaredofsam | April 6, 2012 at 1:27 pm |

Beautiful Mike. Just beautiful.
Cat Daddy | April 6, 2012 at 10:29 pm |

lol, Good psychology is to be found in the PAB’s
E.J. Croughs | April 7, 2012 at 7:37 am |

Pinballs bounce back as you did and they’re pretty hard to destroy, no matter how much Davey tries. A couple repair sessions and there you go.

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