The book What Is Wrong With Scientology is likely to be rather controversial to Scientologists. It addresses some Scientology sacred cows in a fashion that may cause some uneasiness, even among independent Scientologists. Think of this old Zen proverb before shying away: Unless the medicine stuns you, it won’t cure the disease.
One of the reasons I asked a couple of Scientology technical experts to serve as editors of the book was to function as a reality check that my radical-at-first-blush ideas were technically sound. Another reason is because in describing what is wrong with Scientology, I tell what Scientology is, or what it was intended to be by L. Ron Hubbard. As you can see below, nobody likely has a better reality on both scores than my two editors.
The Editors of What Is Wrong With Scientology?
Dan Koon
Dan was introduced to Scientology in 1969 at the Berkeley California Scientology Mission. He joined staff there in 1971. Between 1974 and 1976 he audited to the state of Clear and trained through the St Hill Special Briefing Course (an intensive two to three year study of all lectures and writings covering the entire development of Dianetics and Scientology) at an advanced Scientology organization in Los Angeles. In 1977 Dan joined the Sea Organization (Scientology’s priesthood) and was stationed at Scientology’s international headquarters for the next twenty-seven years. He worked directly with Scientology Founder L. Ron Hubbard on technical training films produced to help perfect the art and science of Scientology counseling. He spent thirteen years as a senior researcher and writer for the L Ron Hubbard Technical Compilations Unit. That group searched, organized and compiled Hubbard’s Scientology writings in accordance with Hubbard’s written wishes. Dan left the organization in December 2003 when after years of deteriorating liberties it had taken on the character of an insular cult. Dan is a painter and writer. He also continues to consult independent Scientology practitioners. He lives with his wife Mariette in her native Sweden.
Russell Williams
Russ got involved in Scientology in 1974 in Phoenix Arizona. He joined the Sea Organization in early 1975 and served for the next thirty years. For the first seven years Russ held a wide variety of posts directly involved with the delivery of Scientology training and auditing. During the 80s and early 90s, Russ worked in the LRH Technical Compilations Unit – along with Dan Koon, for several of those years. During the early 80s Russ also corresponded regularly with L. Ron Hubbard, coordinating the compilations of Hubbard’s work into books, reference volumes, and course packs. In the mid-90s, Russ worked for a stint in Scientology’s international management, as the highest authority over the delivery of Scientology services. Finally, after spending several years in a Scientology concentration camp (described in more detail in this book) Russ decided his dignity and integrity required he break ties with Scientology Inc. In 2004 he moved back to Phoenix, where he works as a freelance writer, editor and photographer, consults independent Scientologists, and enjoys life.
Moving On Up a Little Higher 
Sacred cows you say? Moooooo! Bring it on. I cannot wait to read it! With these guys as editors, even sweeter.
Reblogged this on My LRH.
.Marty,
I just sent a flow to you for a copy of the book to your PO Box .
Getting T.A .already
Cool !
Thanks. But please don’t send money to me. Order information will be posted when it is ready to ship. We don’t have time or facility for logistics.
Please excuse me if I’ve missed something here but it seems to me the problem is with the church of scientology and not the technology.
The only thing that I feel would be wrong with the technology is anything that has been altered without L. Ron Hubbard’s consent.
Unless I’m misunderstanding something here.
Very cool. Looking forward to reading it.
Great! Ready to confront more TRUTH and excited to read your book(s).
Dan and Russ are trusted, known, reliable, honest and very much loved, Great choice!
Yes. If it isn’t broken, don’t fix it.
Pre-empting here,Tim? Why not wait until Marty has
had his say via his new release? Fair comment?
Calvin B. Duffield
Thanks Marty for making this book available. I think it is EXACTLY what is needed at this point. It makes the Big Differentiation, loud and clear, as it pertains to many different areas of Scientology. It will help part the clouds for many, by describing what in the world has changed.
I know for myself, over a 23-year period, every little thing that I saw that I objected to was just something I had to endure or put up with so that we could get the bigger job done. Whoa! KSW–not! Finally I saw SO many things I objected to, and that were being tolerated, supported, and actually pushed in hard, that I knew darn well were not any part of LRH technology or policy that I had to leave for my own sanity. Somehow it had gone off the rails bigtime.
So here it is for many people to read and put into perspective. I had the priviledge of hearing a few little passages while you were in progress, and what it would’ve taken me pages to communicate you simplified and just kept going Bam! with descriptive and truthful statements that brought in the bright light disinfectant. Ah! Clean air!
I can’t wait to read it. A big thank you to you and your support team (Mosey) 🙂 and your two talented and very sensible editors Dan and Russ. Darn those silly self-publishers who take weeks to get a book printed. Sigh…..can’t friggin’ wait!
Personally, Tim, I feel anything that is inconsistent with the fundamentals of the subject, the foundation on which the technology is based, should be examined in the light of day. Unless I missed something, we’re in the position we are today because something went awry over a longish period of time. Just my .02 and Peace out.
Chill out Tim.
Wait until you see what he wrote before getting all worked up. 🙂
Tim,
Anxiety about a critical evaluation of the Scientology technology is a big part of what achieved it’s cult status. Why are we so afraid of a long, hard look?
IMHO, we get TR0 in, completely, on this subject, warts and all or it will not survive in any form worth protecting. I believe Scientology, can and should, stand up to this kind of inspection.
Wow Marty, PERFECT CHOICE. If that tall Jewish gentleman we 3 know (JH) were also assisting you you’d hit certifiable perfection!
I very much appreciate your professional effort into something so valuable and close to our hearts Marty!
I’m guessing Mariette will be final AVC Approval!! Ha! 😮
— Jackson
The problem with the Church of Scientology is that its not doing much Scientology.
Wow! This is going to be one hell of a book!! I’m not a big reader but, I can’t wait to read this one!!
Not one but two editors! Well done to all concerned!! Rachel
LRH himself, in the course of his research, was continually finding problems in his own technology and adjusting it accordingly. At the point he felt he had a WORKABLE technology, he introduced the Class VIII Course. A distinction must be made between the inviolate basics of the tech and the subtle grey areas which allowed the introduction of GAT’s arbitraries. For example, I have seen sessions which were given a VWD for following procedure to the letter, yet resulted in zero tone arm action.
Well I really don’t think you need to worry too much about sacred cows with Indies. Most if not all have run a full gamut of LRH-bashing, anti-Marty, Mike-is-the-antichrist sites and blogs, and it seems what really differentiates Indies from Corp Culties is their/ our ability (and willingness) to sift the truth from the bullshit. After all, it’s desire for the truth that brought us to this blog in the first place isn’t it? Personally I can’t wait for the book(s) and will do whatever I can to get the benighted souls still “in” to read it / them.
What is wrong with…….? Perhaps we might take a quick
leap – frog BACKWARDS here and go to the very basic
fundamental tool of Scientology………communication!
LRH alone,( I believe!) developed the Axioms of Dianetics
& Scientology, from his original thesis that all of life, had,
as it’s entire goal, SURVIVAL, and nothing BUT survival!
This, as he tells us, led to the initially unanswered question
of WHY life was surviving? But he quickly established the
many forms of HOW, it was doing so!
On the 23 rd April 1953, LRH (humbly) tendered, as a gift
to Man….THE FACTORS. which give a concise explanation
of the entirety of existence, and give some substance to the
AXIOMS, self evident truths of the laws and principles
followed by all forms of life, as we know it (O-8 The Book of
Basics p.21 original book, p.77 new version)
Now to my point……Communication, and the fundamental
to the success of all auditing, the auditing comm. cycle,
based on the comm formula. as AXIOM 28:
COMMUNICATION IS THE CONSIDERATION AND ACTION
OF IMPELLING AN IMPULSE OR PARTICLE FROM
SOURCE POINT ACROSS A DISTANCE TO RECEIPT
POINT, WITH THE INTENTION OF BRINGING INTO BEING
AT THE RECEIPT POINT A DUPLICATION ( AND UNDER-
STANDING) OF THAT WHICH EMANATED FROM THE
SOURCE POINT.
And therein, possibly the cause of most frustration and exasperation amongst all beings, since time immemorial:
……………………..MISDUPLICATION !!!!……………………..
LRH resolved this in his Process SOP 8-C, Step VIII
(O-8 p. 144 original book, p.361 new version)
VIII DUPLICATION
FUNDAMENTAL: The basic action of existence is dupli-
cation.
LOGIC: All operating principles in life may be derived
from duplication.
AXIOM: Communication is as exact as it approaches
duplication.
AXIOM: Unwillingness to be cause is monitored by
unwillingness to be duplicated.
AXIOM: Unwillingness to be an effect is monitored by
unwillingness to duplicate.
AXIOM: An inability to remain in a geographical
position brings about an unwillingness to duplicate.
AXIOM: An enforced fixation in a geographical
position brings about an unwillingness to duplicate.
AXIOM: Inability to duplicate on any dynamic is the
primary degeneration of the thetan.
AXIOM: Perception depends upon duplication.
AXIOM: Communication depends upon duplication.
AXIOM: In the MEST universe, the single crime is
duplication.
FORMULA VIII: The primary ability and willingness
of the thetan to duplicate must be rehabilitated by
handling desires, enforcements and inhibitions
relating to it on all dynamics.
( also in…The Creation of Human Ability—LRH)
IMHO, not duplicating the above, is DEFINITELY
one of the key things..” wrong” in (the practise of)
Scientology.
Calvin B. Duffield
I am with Tara. Bring on the Truth. I think we got here because of whatever it was we did not confront, whether we chose to do, whether others attempted to prevent us from doing so, or perhaps the gun was loaded and we missed that (probably a variation and combination of the first two). I could also say I think we got here on violations of personal integrity. Those violations have germinated some really gnarly situations that are much more difficult to confront now.
The multiple viewpoint system with a significant dose of truth can’t help but in the long run be a wonderful salve or tonic or remedy.
Marty,
Accept this as a humble donation to the cause.
Hey Marty,
Looking forward to your book!
Are you planing a Kindle (digital) edition? That’s how a lot of people read everything these days.
Good for you and your eminently qualified Editors!
Speaking of a “Kindle” or “iBooks” Edition, I downloaded an iBooks edition of Freakonomics, the other day. It is a fascinating book, and makes ‘economics’ understandable, and shows how it applies to, every day problems of living. It discusses how to tell whether one thing caused another, or the other caused the first, or both or neither, were caused by third forces.
I mention this, and highly recommend Freakonomics to everyone readhing this site, and to everyone who intends to read your new book, because I learned something about Scientology during my reading of the introduction and first couple of chapters of Freakonomics.
And, what I learned was this: Ron did not fail. Scientology is not dead and done (the Church may be, but that is another story). Scientology is not a failure. In fact, Ron succeeded beyond what any one could have imagined in their wildest dreams, if they had been around when he first started. The appearance of David Miscavige, and his perversion, suppression and destruction of the CHURCH of Scientology is, in fact, exactly the kind of response one would expect from “the SP’s” (whomever they are) to Scientology once it gained any kind of foothold in life. But, it is too late. What Ron succeeded in doing, before he lost control of the “Church’ and later died, was educate and train thousands of loyalists (like most of the people reading this list) and set down in writing a path that they could follow to coninue the work Ron started.
For what Ron did was, just, start. He didn’t finish. He, just, started. And, he left it for those who found his start invigorating to create the conditions necessary to preserve his start and to make his start available in the future.
It was never true, and no one who has ever considered how these things go would have thought so for a minute, that the creation of the “Sea Org”, or the various subsets of its organizational structure, would be sufficient to “preserve” Scientology, much less broaden its dissemination. it is not “organizations” who forward goodness, it is the individual beings who join and work within those organizations who forward the theta.
Freakonomics simply points out that it is not David Miscavige’s machinations (regardless of who he works for) that we need to look to measure Scientology’s health. It is the fact that Ron, anticipating this kind of suppressiveness would, definitely, come to pass, trained enough people, and left enough of his works in tact and in the format (paper) to where they could not be altered, to assure that Scientology would survive and prosper, regardless of David Miscavige’s Hitlerian Dramatizations.
Ron anticiapted David Miscavige and prepared all of us for this fight.
Thanks to Ron.
A long hard look into the practices of Scientology can only occur once one has actually trained ones-self on the subject, as it is intended to be studied.
This is the only truly honest way to approach the subject: do the Briefing Course, put PC’s in session, get people through their Grades, study more than just the Basic materials and actually get certified by someone who is checking your qualifications of being, doing, and having the results of, an Auditor.
Also, if some criticism is to be leveled at the organizational structure, read what LRH wrote should happen and compare it to what actually happened: therein you will find the very true “problem” with the Church. The administrative technology works, it has been proven again and again in Orgs where it is allowed to be applied properly, and the results can be obtained by very carefully reading, understanding, and applying what LRH says about how to handle the problems of the modern Scientology organization. He says, again and again, “Get TRAINED to Audit and THEN: AUDIT!”.
Anything less than a delivery of that postulate is not an honest investigation, because the fact of the matter is, Scientology works, it can be used to _greatly_ improve conditions in the world, and the only way anyone will ever actually know this to be a fact, personally, is if it is actually done and delivered.
Thank you, really, the communication here makes me “chomp,at the bit” for more information. To do the best job possible surround yourself with the best talent and you did that indeed. Can’t wait. Bill
The truth holds no respect for emotional or intellectual attachment to any knowledge or supposed knowledge, certainties or assumed certainties, word cleared knowledge or misunderstood knowledge.
Truth has only one goal:
The revelation of the true nature of existence as a whole or existence as a specific.
The beauty of truth is it rips you a new one when it sees fit. Or crowns you with validation if you perceive the truth.
If truth makes you uncomfortable: GOOD!!!
That means it is shining light on our preconceived assumptions that are not ture or partially true.
I’m hoping for the truth in your book Marty. Warts and victories!
Hi Marty, As I am now truly a free being, I am looking forward to reading your book and seeing what my viewpoints are about it’s content. No problem with controversial topics at all.
I think Carly Simon summed it up when she sang “Anticipation.” You’ve done a great job of creating interest. I hope it’s available on Kindle as well.
Athena8, that’s another story, LRH adjusting his technology. It was his technology to adjust! It worked very, very well as long as it was applied as written.
It’s like this, anyone can misduplicate, change and do whatever they please, questioning or changing LRH’s work, but then also be sure to put your own name/brand on it, because Scientology was created/written/approved by LRH. Don’t change it and still call it Scientology. Once you made the change it is no longer Scientology.
Excellent Calvin! At least I’m duplicaitng this!
Disappointed. I am disappointed in what seems to be the Independent Scientologist Central Committee (ISCC).
This kinda ties into “what is wrong with Scientology”.
Personally, I think almost everything that is wrong with Scientology is organizational in nature. When I see parallels in the conduct of the Independents, I am disappointed.
I apparently been deadfiled by Christie, whom I guess is a representative of the ISCC, as regards my request for an invite to the picnic. This started with what was an admittedly snarky response from me in respect to the “requirements” to be invited to the party. I am tired of such requirements as prerequisites to communication so I flashed back a bit. OK, I apologized for laying that on Christie and provided some links as requested. Since then, I cannot get a response.
As I said, when I see parallels in the conduct of the Independents, I am disappointed.
I am tired of one person or one small group of persons setting themselves up as arbiters of who and who may not communicate with the group. I am offended that someone would choose to block my access to a group with which I may well have a lot in common based on their not liking the “cut of my jib”. They do not even know me or how my sails are cut. This stinks of “what is wrong with Scientology”.
It is the our way or the highway mentality with “our way” determined by a small minority and their decisions and actions carried out in camera. Command Intention, as it were.
I consider myself an independent Scientologist. Note the small “i”. I would like to hook up with more of the same and see if there is some way that I might want to become a more involved independent Scientologist (note the small “i”). I am not sure I want to hook up with some organized Independent Scientologist Movement®. Especially if that Group wants to repeat the errors of the past Group.
Oh, and BTW, my biggest “what is wrong with Scientology” is the imposition of rules and responsibilities on the members beyond the simple concepts of Students Guide to Acceptable Behavior and other such policies. The organization can and should impose all the internal rules and responsibilities it sees fit for efficient operation provided they do not unduly impose on the human rights of the staff but the public are not staff. If public folks could just use Scientology as they please without an oppressive organization watching over them, things would work out just fine. IMO
disinfected
John Pardillo
I’m prepared to be “stunned”…bring on the medicine!
Great post Calvin!
Is the book also going to be in eBook format?
You know what never made sense to me?
LRH says that absolutes are unobtainable right? So to me that means that NOBODY is going to apply the tech 100% standardly. I know they did’nt at Flag!! LRH has written so much just on TR’s and metering alone, how anyone could apply it 100% is unreal to me. Didn’t LRH write the world out of comm eval and found that there wasn’t an auditor good enough to deliver the Sup[er power rundowns? That must mean that those auditors were to some degree mis-applying the tech.
I mean I believe that we should try to keep his tech pure so we know what he wrote, but I feel people have the right to delover the tech the way they see is the most workable. Otherwise you get big brother RTC who TELLS or ORDERS you to deliver it the way THEY THINK is standard.
Yes on Kindle
Great Editors and must read
Maybe someone should ask them, “What is wrong with Scientology? Why aren’t you delivering it?”
Thanks Ingrid, but the kudos really go to YOU, in being
able to get the RESULTS of fully duplicating the power
of a being a FULLY trained Auditor, and seeing the
daily miracles in the lives of, your pc’s, by simply
applying totally Standard Tech……….
……….THE promise of LRH… by all STANDARD auditors!
ML, Calvin.
Max, good to “see” you again, and thanks!
John,
You said: “They do not even know me or how my sails are cut.” Is this the problem, or something else?
Enough already!
Where is the book?
That’s a good’un, brother. Well done.
Hi,
First off this is not an “organized group” to the best of my knowledge.
This is a Indie Party. Certain people are throwing the party and they have the right to invite who they wish, just as you would if you were throwing the party.
If you gave them some weird backflash because they are trying to filter out OSA bots then that is your bad.
A suggestion to you would be to throw your own indie party. ( Note the small i)
YKW, exceptional commentary, and in particular, I like your view of LRH: as having “started” the bridge ( he himself said:
“….for God’s sake get busy and build a better bridge!!….)
….and indeed, notwithstanding Miscavige’s sacrilege in
unashamedly perverting Scn into a Radical Ponzi operation,
we see…..today….the emergence of a “better bridge” based
on openness, affordability and restoration of true ARC amongst
more ethical beings on this planet, finally being realized.
I feel certain that LRH is / would be, extremely proud of the
Independent Movement, as developing under the stewardship
of Marty Rathbun and his extremely competent lieutenants
and sagely supporters within the movement, spread far and
wide across the world, yet exhibiting GENUINE gung – ho
commitment to LRH’s original aims of Scientology.
As I took the liberty of saying in a previous post, Marty is
the POLAR opposite of David Miscavige and IMHO,is therefore
more ethically, morally and technically qualified to be leading
the recovery of Scientology to it’s former successful era.
Like most here, I can’t wait for Marty’s book launch!!!!
Best, ARC from Calvin.
Truth is truth… Right on, Mr. Brewster.
Exactly, Tony. Can anyone spell cognitive dissonance?
I understand that there is a very real worry about the tech being altered/lost but isn’t that what brought so many of us here in the first place?
The church (Miscavige), in it’s pursuit of 100% standard tech, has practically destroyed any possibility of a REAL session occurring.
My first auditor was partially deaf and definitely made errors and even a code break here and there! The result? I did great. Years later, at Flag, I was given so much ‘Standard Tech’ it nearly drove me mental. What was the difference? The genuine intention to help.
The tech is a truly wonderful thing but it is not senior to life or the beings living it. If we raise it to the status of divine, absolute doctrine it will perish.
Alteration is one thing; advancement within the framework of the fundamental principles and axioms is another.
John, simple advice…. let it all go! ….then, you may feel
better, be able to grant beingness and be able to shift
your viewpoint sufficiently so as to just “be the enemy.”
Magically, you may suddenly find, they are no longer
“the enemy!” (check my post today at 7.44 am.)
Best, Calvin.
Fair enough. Then be a mensch and say so, not this crap of “entheta – deadfile”. I, for one, have had more than my fill of that sort of “stuff” and will call you on it every time.
And, BTW, the party is supposedly open to “All Independent Scientologists, and supporters”. Perhaps I missed the big “I” though I still count myself as a “supporter”. Not a sycophant. A supporter. Maybe that lets me out.
disinfected
Hey Tony,
If you throw an “Indie” or “indie” party, I’d like to be invited.
Thanks,Ronnie, good to see you “back,” and kickin’!
John:
Because Christie didnt answer your (admittedly snarky) email when you felt it should have been (I was out of town for 5 days, she was here with a 2 month old and a 5 year old and didnt have a lot of time for emails) you decide there is a conspiracy against you. Perhaps it is you who doesnt know the “cut of the jib.” You certainly seem to have a self-importance button John. And apparently are quite self-righteous.
You seem to be the one insisting on creating some non-existent organization that apparently reminds you of the RCS.
What makes you think I, or others who plan on attending, would want you to be invited to our get-together? You seem to think you are entitled to join in because you claim to be an “indie” (with a small i)? I think Tony has the best advice for you. Throw your own party. Invite whoever you wish. And enjoy yourself. I know I will find it more enjoyable without your accusations, natter and ARC Breaks around.
If you can find a kinder, fairer person than Christie, you should marry her. Next time, why don’t you think before you write. Promise you, you picked on the wrong person. You just dropped a turd in the punchbowl and proudly announced it was one of your own making….
PJ,
Your comment is so enlightening, uplifting and hopeful. Breath of fresh air.
Speaking of fresh air – Marty – the fresh air around your blog is some of the cleanest around. Looking forward very much to your first book, and thank you for all you do, and for your blog – the stable lifeline. A person can always feel lifted up, around here.
Why I believe in the Independents
The universally beneficial evolution of knowledge requires unhampered, unsupressed, unqualified access to ask questions not limited by “approved authority”.
As the motion of the planets as theorized by Caprenicus was disproved by Galeleo. As the “absolute” Newtonian laws of the mechanical universe was upgraded by Quantum mechanics, so the knowledge of the human mind and spirit is always upgrading.
That is life, life is always expanding in knowledge of itself.
Ron’s contribution to this evolution is in the idea he says, ” all I’m trying to do is teach you to look” (sorry if this is a misquote, I am an SP and must be suppresive to justify my golden rod)
As the Independence blend more and more with the trend of general expansion of societal evolution, the contribution of Ron (teaching people to look) will become part of the public narrative.
To sit a person dowm with an e-meter and guide them through the rocky shallows of the subconsious and lead them to direct perception of God, Soul, Theta, Buddhahood, Nirvana, Freedom. Who give a crap what you call it, lets get real. Bliss is bliss, joy is joy, Spirit is Spirit.
Yet, in this expansion, old modes of though will be discarded. The trick is to have truth be the goal and not only the preservation of dogma.
Good Luck Independence, I support you on your journey!!!!
See my answer to you.
A piece of advice for you John — assuming a status, label or title doesnt make you ANYTHING. That is what the RCS lives on — titles, labels and status. And the one thing it REALLY doesnt get you is friends. That is something that is based on your ACTIONS. Check out how “friends” based on labels and status work out when you leave the RCS.
You need to do a bit of work I think on gaining some friends. So far you are not doing well at it here.
More truth=more duplication=as-isness of this now amusing third dynamic engram. You know how the PC laughs toward the end of erasing an engram chain. Lots of laughter going on around here these days.
What’s wrong with “scientology?”
The actual cycle of action is create-create-create, counter-create, no creation.
Miscavige and his ilk have been counter-creating scientology for over 30 years. Counter-creating to the point where there is very little scientology left within the mortar walls of the “church” of scientology.
There are, however, thousands of us who are not afraid of freedom who are creating a new game with the tech. We’re creating well above 3.5 on the tone scale and we’re using the tech as a liberating tool, not as a service facsimile.
Hi Mike
What answer are you referring to? Did you send me something? Checked all accounts, haven’t received it.
Regarding your advice, not sure I get it. I am no member of the CofS. And yes, publicly stating you are an independent Scientologist pretty much makes you one. You don’t get to take that away from me to make some rhetorical point.
Regarding your last, perhaps an attempt at introverting me, no worries. If there is one thing I am sure of it, it is my ability to make friends of those I care to befriend. Not doing well here because I do not come here to make friends. Nor to make enemies. I come here to call it like I see it.
disinfected
Judas, excuse me but this is so bs. Who do you suggest make these “advancements”? You? Marty? All of us together? Do we take a vote? Anyone who wants to tell us where LRH tech should be advanced, just anybody? A “board of experts” maybe? Hello! Are you going to write these “new discoveries” down and call them Scientology breakthroughs? Please! Is this what you really want? I suggest you take another look at this.
We absolutely should be asking this of them. In fact, we ought to be picketing the Orgs and getting them to confront the fact that they’re not, actually, doing any Scientology. I’ll get “Put DM’s Head On a Pike” t-shirts made, you get the pile of OEC Vol’s ready to put in some standard Admin ..
I refer to the response to your comment. Not an email. I told Christie not to waste time answering you after your comment was posted.
You seem sort of desperate to make friends and “be invited” which is why I offered you some advice. But if you don’t care about that, its totally fine by me. Though I am not sure why you posted anything in the first place….
You are a man of contradictions.
LRH knew there was going to be a big SP coming along, and he definitely prepared us for it.
Now, this is just a personal belief and I only mention it so that those who are interested in me as an individual understand where I’m coming from in the future among this 3rd dynamic .. not because its something I think is ‘100% true’, but its a personal belief.
I believe LRH created the SO to protect Scientology .. from itself, as well as from society.
You see, I think the SO is a _trap_ for an extremely common valence, the fascistic dramatizers of Fac-One who currently dominate our society and ruin all decent social progress .. LRH created the SO to keep those guys busy while Clears were being made.
Of course, its LRH we’re talking about here, so even the trap itself was designed to Clear the PC, eventually .. and I know more than a few good folks who have gone clear on their SO Hatting, alone .. but the trouble is, there isn’t really anyone around any more to actually _apply_ the SO policies and remove the SP that LRH predicted in all his ways would come directly following his departing the scene .. so the SO still has quite some lower conditions to deal with before things get cleaner.
Until the Sea Org actually RETURNS TO THE SEA and operates as a Sea-based activity, it will be nothing more than the corrupted trap LRH set for the fascists ..
Oh, “a man of contradictions”. Can’t have those about. LOL.
Not desperate on either count, just calling y’all on the now self-admitted deadfile. Were I to attend, it would be to network and perhaps make friends. That is not why I post here because I do not think this forum is right for me in that respect; too cumbersome and restrictive to free communication.
So why did I even ask for an invite. Some prophecies are worth self-fulfilling.
Take care and give my best to your wife. Enjoy the picnic, all.
disinfected
disinfected
Mr Rinder, Sir, you are telling the other person what to think about themselves: “you seem sort of desperate ..” and “you need to do a bit of work I think on gaining some friends. So far you are not doing well at it here. ” … these are pretty snarky evaluations to be making, no? Is antagonizing this individual really the appropriate response to his position, which is, after all, based on an affinity for the subject?
I take issues with the flagrant forming of clique. I understand the paranoia regarding plants and other dirty types attending the new entitled indie parties, but I truly believe that there is a wider need for less bickering and more solutions. Fact is, there are 100’s of Independents out there, whom nobody can verify/validate, yet still they might be a valuable part of a Scientology Congress to restore the religion; must a leading OL in our small, but growing scene, be so easily grumpy towards newcomers and faithful, alike?
“Think of this old Zen proverb before shying away: Unless the medicine stuns you, it won’t cure the disease.”
Never mind “Zen”, lets hear what LRH has to say about it: “The way out, is the way through!”
We either fix Scientology by actually using Scientology, or we go off and so something else entirely. Because Zens’ not Scientology!
woops! I guess you’re not under the radar any more!
Very cool.
Calm down dear. Let’s wait for the book. Athena, PJ, Tony and O.O. are only saying that zealousness didn’t get us too far, did it. RTC Gestapo anyone? No thanks.
Wow tunedal – I didn’t get all this from PJ’s post – thought it was more like the idea that Miscavige is trying to MAKE it all (supposedly) so perfect and doctrinal that no plain old caring person could simply apply it. After all, Miscavige is the one “improving on LRH”, though he always comes short of saying it.
In the Miscavige “church” you HAVE to do it the [latest version of] Miscavige way. You are a slave. Maybe like old Christians told they can’t get to heaven by just reading their bibles, and trying to apply it and be good – there are new rules you gotta keep up with or you will go straight to hell. Powerful incentives – you will LOSE YOUR ETERNITY.
LRH himself did not want us to be a slave to him either.
Any slavery is no good. Personally I think that is a large part of “what is wrong with Scientology” in the official church – OBEDIENCE seems to be the highest of all duties. Give money, come to the events, this is who you can talk to, this is what you can and cannot do, this is what you can and cannot read, this is what you can and cannot think….. Nowadays, once you “join” it seems that you gave up permanently your right to do anything other than OBEY. But you never consciously faced making the decision of giving away your rights, until a moment comes when you actually try to DISOBEY, if you ever do. No slave disobeys and avoids the consequences. Punishment comes with a vengeance. Let alone the old powerful incentive – losing your eternity – you punish yourself with that one.
“I did not know I was a slave until I found out I could not do the things I wanted”. Frederick Douglass
I took exception to disinfected accusing and bad-mouthing Christie. He put up a comment first, I responded with the facts. Because someone calls themselves an independent or anything else doesnt make them a friend, an enemy, an agent provocateur or an ally. Their actions do. I found his actions to be in bad taste. And I “called it like I saw it” (in the fashion of disinfected). Just because someone assumes a label doesnt mean they should be liked or respected. He acted like a douchebag.
I’m not trying to follow the auditor’s code. I would say his original comment was the antagonistic one. He picked the fight.
The problem is that I don’t feel it’s necessary.
I think there’s better things to focus on, better ways energy and time can be spent.
It already works. Once something works, I think it’s working is the indicator that its time to leave it alone.
It works. That should be our indicator that it’s time to focus on something else.
I think it’s a better focus of our time and energy on things in this world that are not working.
Advancement:
1.
an act of moving forward.
2.
promotion in rank or standing; preferment:
It seems to me PJ was talking about advancing the tech delivery to a higher state than what it has been. Particularly within the cult.
I think there is a real chance that some will mis-interpret the tech just as some mis-interpret the Bible. Are you going to be the judge of what is or isn’t “standard tech”?
I believe that people will go to the person who they see is best or most closely applies the tech in thier estimation. There will be no RTC out here. It will be who is getting the results.
I predict it will be dog eat dog at first and then will smooth out.
Already I have heard that some auditors and C/S’s will not share the PC folders with others if they don’t agree with thier handling of the tech. I guess this makes some sense but it could create problems too because it works both ways. It could happen that someone goes to a real butcher and gets messed up and then the folders cannot be obtained by a good auditor.Isee no way of really remedying this. At least for now.
So, no matter how many get upset over what others are doing, they really have no (or not much) control over it. In the end it, will be the people who choose. And those using ARC/KRC with those people will get them to trust that persons delivery.
Gern said:”Fact is, there are 100′s of Independents out there, whom nobody can verify/validate,”
This sounds like bullshit to me. What do you mean CAN”T be verified?? What are they aliens?? Anyone can be checked out. I guess some idiots don’t get that OSA bots can be a real pain in the ass. If some not so bright people cannot see the necessity for screening, then they have much bigger problems in life.
It is starting to sound like a bunch of OSA bots jumping on their chance to give Mike a hard time over some inane bullshit to me. Like rabid dogs fighting over a carcass.
I take issue with people who take issue…. 🙂
LRH MISCAVIGE
Look Don’t look
Decide if it is true for you Don’t dare try this
Go ahead and audit Retrain, retread, cancel certs
Purpose senior to policy Misvavige orders senior
(from HCOPL Admin Scale??)
Beings basically good Beings basically suppressive
Being as good as serves others Being good if serves me
Orgs there for service Orgs there for looks, makes
M look good, makes TC
happy?
Auditors most valuable beings Auditors better watch it
your eternity is yours your eternity is mine
Senior policy deliver what promised Senior policy OBEY
Freedom Slavery
Money is exchange for service I decide what to do with
your money
Use data series – multiple viewpoint Miscavige viewpoint only
Theta MEST
powerful speaker, thinker might make it in infomercials
Demonstrated ability to audit Demonstrated ability to____
Justice codes Miscavige rules
The work is free. Keep it so. Oh it’s gonna COST you!
Corporate checks & balances DM is LRH successor
Calls it Scientology Calls it Scientology
The last part is where it gets tricky – so when you answer the question What is wrong with Scientology – the answer is “it depends”.
I side with those who take issue with people who take issue. 🙂
Oops. Above post messed up. Should have put periods or something. The first part of the sentence is LRH.
The second part of the sentence is Micavige.
Gern – I see you railing against tomes of LRH material on the Sea Org in a concurrent comment. Get a grip, or get a leave from OSA, kid.
Right, Mike. And the fact that OSA “plants” and PI’s do exist and that they are specifically tasked with targets like harassing and disrupting the lives of Indies, introducing tech degrades into the Indie Scn field, infiltrating and disrupting Indie groups, etc. is more than enough reason to “beware the mysterious stranger” or question the reactions of someone who cannot rationally complete a comm cycle.
Before the first time I went to the Independents Day gathering, I didn’t see my invitation right away because I had my security/spam filter settings set to relegate any emails I received from people not on my contacts list to go into the “junk mail” folder. It wasn’t until Christie directed me to look there that I discovered my error. The point is, is that I checked with her and she resolved the situation.
It is possible to get a lot of exercise by jumping to conclusions, but much healthier to bear the weight of responsibility.
See reply to your other snarky comment.
Mike, don’t take it too seriously. DM has had OSA working overtime since I posted the video on the book the other day.
I am sorry about the messed up post, Marty. I hope you can delete it
I tried to fix the post here:
LRH……………………………………./MISCAVIGE………………………………..
Look………………………………….. /Don’t look………………………………….
Decide if it is true for you………../Don’t dare try this……………………….
Go ahead and audit………………./Retrain, retread, cancel certs……….
Purpose senior to policy………… /Misvavige orders senior………………
….(from HCOPL Admin Scale??)
Beings basically good……………. /Beings basically suppressive…………
Being as good as serves others. /Being good if serves me……………….
Orgs there for service…………….. /Orgs there for looks, makes
……………………………………………..M look good, makes TC
……………………………………………..happy?
Auditors most valuable beings….. /Auditors better watch it…………………
your eternity is yours……………….. /your eternity is mine…………………….
Senior policy deliver what promised. /Senior policy OBEY…………………..
Freedom…………………………………/Slavery………………………………………..
Money is exchange for service….. /I decide what to do with
………………………………………………your money…………………………………..
Use data series – multiple viewpoint. /Miscavige viewpoint only…………….
Theta……………………………………….. /MEST……………………………………….
Powerful speaker, thinker, leader….. /Might make it in infomercials……….
Demonstrated ability to audit………… /Demonstrated ability to____ ………
Justice codes………………………………. /Miscavige rules…………………………
The work is free. Keep it so…………… /Oh it’s gonna COST you!…………..
Corporate checks & balances………… /DM is LRH successor………………..
Calls it Scientology…………………………/Calls it Scientology…………………..
The last part is where it gets tricky – so when you answer the question What is wrong with Scientology – the answer is “it depends”.
John,
When you call it as you see it, and that call is expressed and you don’t like the response of the other end calling it as they see it, it makes me wonder, from my vantage point of all this calling, what you intended when you called. If it was to get an invite to a party, and the hostess deen’t like what you called, and decidded to call you on it, then I’d call that a fa bad call on your part.
Didn’t LRH issue an Issue* about people with issues?
Note the uppercase “I” in the word “Issue”.
P.S. I’ll be at the Minnie airport scalping tickets to this thing. Call me 🙂
Gern,
What you don’t know is that the real Inner Clique, the one even Tookums failed to find out, the one disinfected was infected by, and for, and the one you brazenly allude to here, has a Supa Secwet Handshake that isn’t BY hands. That’s all I can write here, with my hands. Sorry. Really I am. AAAAIIIIEEEEE, I’ve been found. Bye for now. I hope more later.
Ewwww… this page is really smelling like troll (OSA bot?) farts.
That’s always been my motto in life.
It’s like an artist who says he’s found some flaws in the Mona Lisa and he’s going to take a paint brush and fix it.
All he’s going to do is succeed in destroying a masterpiece.
Tony, I’m not upset.
I’m as cool as a cucumber. 🙂
When Miscavige takes on a project he ensures nobody will have any power to correct him if he goes off the rails. Anyone that could possibly move to correct him is hidden deep in the desert, in trailers or abandoned houses or tents.
When Marty takes on a project the first thing he does is establish a qual to oversee his work. He establishes a qual division.
Miscavige unmocks his qual division.
Not too difficult to figure out who will be the last man standing in this game.
I have traveled to the parallel dimension last night. The Gods favor Marty. I also was informed there, Miscavige has been cursed with a degenerative disease that causes the body to shrivel to be smaller than the head. I did not inquire as to who issued the curse. I shifted to his where his body lay and confirmed it. His bones were very white and emitting an unusual heat.
Someone is running a bypass on the mortal.
Marty, I don’t know what you have covered in the entirety of the book, but the initial taste in the video was very interesting. Beyond my quams with the organization and its suppressive leadership, I confess I have had some problems, not with the observable truths and discoveries by Ron (the nature of a thetan, the parts of Man, ARC/KRC, the reactive mind, auditing tech, the necessity of going “earlier/similar”, o/w’s, pts/sp, study tech, etc.,), but with some of his assertions that are questionable, and which have caused me to doubt other parts of his lectures and writings, even though I had gains as early on the Bridge as the Comm Course (going ext) that no one will ever be able to take away from me.
What first bothered me was in the “State of Man Congress”, which I believe was recorded in 1962. In one of the lectures, “Zones of Control and Responsibility of Governments” (you can Google this, I’m not the only one who spotted it), Ron says his “overt” against the U.S. was when he was a Hessian observer and he killed General Prescott at the Battle of Bunker Hill. A little red flag went up when I heard this on the tape, as I know a bit about the Revolution and this sounded false. So, I consulted Boatner’s “Encyclopedia of the American Revolution”, and sure enough, Prescott died an old man in his bed. Further, there were no Hessian observers at that battle, as news of the battle did not reach Europe till later in the summer when the Hessian troops were then offered (for a price) to George III. Yes, I know about dub-in, the possibility of other American civilizations on the track, but in any case, this was disturbing, because if Ron could not remember accurately less than 200 years ago, how could I trust his memory of the Whole Track going back millions of years, in terms of what to audit, in terms of true history? For years, I had accepted everything Ron said as absolute fact, so this definitely shook my stable data.
I don’t know if this was an intentional fabrication, but Ron was a gifted writer with a great imagination, and I wondered if this was responsible for some of the wrong data. I remember my ex was desperately trying to get me to look at not only the “black pr” about the CoS on the internet, but also the confidential data which I refused to do. She said, “You know geology. When you read the levels, some of the data will not match the geological record.” Well, I still have not looked at the confidential data, I only have come across snippets which I generally avoid, but the little I read, in conjunction with the false data in “State of Man”, got me thinking that perhaps Ron wanted to created a common enemy that would unite Mankind, and so created a lore. If that was the case, then perhaps this is a point where Scientology went off the rails. Of course, it could be true; I believed many people were actually having wins, but it did cut my reach and urgency to do the OT levels.
I know in re-reading many years later “The Art of Psychopolitics” which I had first thought was true when I was a green Scientologist, I could see after getting to know Ron’s style better, that it was actually a fictionalization by Ron, obviously meant to tie psychology to the truly evil Beria, one of Stalin’s henchman, in an attempt to dead agent it. I heard it was being used as an S.O. recruitment tool, and winced to think what would happen if the media ever got wind of it. But this is an another example of fictionalization for a purpose.
Another problem I see, was commented upon by the “sp squirrel” David Mayo in his “Sunday Talk on Disillusionment”. This was his observation that not giving great importance to the 8th Dynamic, or the idea that one was responsible to a higher power for one’s actions, could be responsible for the organization’s feeling that they were answerable to no one for their actions, that they themselves were gods in the making. Despite his early writings, it’s clear that Ron did not believe in God (“prayers being sent up to a myth”), and of course did not believe in absolute good or evil. He does qualify “greatest good”, but in practice this has been abused by the organization as many people have witnessed.
In any case, I apologize for the length of this comment, but your post has made me want to articulate the questions I still have, even though I believe spiritual freedom, increased ability and awareness, are possible through Ron’s tech. Perhaps you, Dan or Russell can comment. Thank you.
OMG, I’m having a cognition!!!!!!!!!!
“deadfiled by Christie…”
“one small group of persons setting themselves up as arbiters…”
“some organized Independent Scientologist Movement®…”
“repeat the errors of the past Group…”
“imposition of rules and responsibilities on the members…”
If it sounds like a troll, talks like a troll, acts like a troll, smells like dead rotting troll meat, and had an big, gigantic, enormous troll sense of troll entitlement (to attend private parties) like a troll, is both troll-ignorant and troll-nattery at the same time, well… it may not be a real troll. It might just be John Pardillo. So no one should assume that John Pardilo is either a troll or the tool of a troll. Nor am I suggesting that Gern Gaschoen is a troll or a Friend of Trolls or the unwitting Tool of a Troll.
Gern Gaschoen could simply be what he says he is: a person who is so worked up by FECs (Fiendishly Evil Cliques — they are EVERYWHERE!) that he sees them even where they do not exist and then feels compelled to attack innocent people while defending people who sound, act, and stink like trolls.
That is why LRH was wrong to say in the first step of the Liability formula “Decide who your friends are.” Instead, let me be the first to propose a solution: change step 1 of the Liability formula to, “Hug a troll today!” or perhaps “Kiss a troll on the mouth” or simply “Fiercely defend the nearest troll.”
But LRH’s errors go deeper than that. Don’t anyone think I’m just ridiculing. Not at all. LRH in step two of the Liability formula said “Deliver an effective blow to the enemies of the group one has been pretending to be part of despite personal danger.” Can you believe it?!?
I propose we all rewrite step 2 to read, “Deliver an effective blow to the wife of any person who is helping others meanwhile pretend to be a part of the group but spell their name using lowercase letters.”
(I’m not saying that John Pardilo or Gern Gaschoen are pretending to be friends but revealing themselves by farting in the soup.)
I know. Right? How stupid was LRH? He said in step 3: “Make up the damage one has done by personal contribution…” oh come on! Rewrite this to say, “Contribute nothing. Just announce that you are entitled. Gern Gaschoen will back you up no matter how idiotic you sound!”
At least you can say LRH was consistent because step 4 is also massivly wrong. He said “Apply for reentry to the group…” How authoritarian. Change step 4 to “Demand membership based on the principle of troll entitlement and cram it down everyone’s throat.”
But I digress. What I really want to do is write a commendation on Gern Gaschoen for helping me understand if your friends are troll bosses, trolls, troll-tools, or professional troll impersonators not necessarily like John Pardilo, then consider yourself lucky. For now you will soon understand what is wrong with you. All you have to do is discipline someone who insults your wife. That’s when you find out the real problem with you: you are paranoid.
Let this be a lesson to us all. It is best never to take issue with any trolls, just let them walk all over you and your wife and friends. And let them invalidate the good work you have done. That is the Troll Way. Because if you dare invalidate a troll, you immediately have to answer to the FoT (Friends of Trolls) who are surely the most difficult people on earth to reason with.
All I’m trying to do is help everyone avoid unnecessary strife by allowing trolls to crap in your face. This is all for the best.
Unfortunately I can hear it now: Tony de Phillips is going to say, “But wasn’t ‘letting the insane walk all over us’ how we got into this mess in the first place?” Look — if some of us want to follow the Troll Way which teaches us how to become one with a doormat, that is our right.
You are correct Tim but what is not working is the application of the technology by the Church of S. That does need to be fixed. The reader will see that it is not the technology that is wrong but the Church. Marty will make that clear but if he named it ‘Scientology Works’ no one would read it! Just my 2cents.
PJ, Funny you said that about your 1st auditing. My first auditor ate sprouts he kept in the corner durring sesion (while I was knodding out with Dianetics!) and he even fell asleep once! But I loved the auditing anyway. He cared and the processes must have been run correctly. I kept comming back for more. However my auditing in 2004 – well I think I did only did (put up with) 20 hrs out of 100 i’d purchased of OT 5 then gave the rest to my husband to fix him up after I deceided not to return to staff and got a divorcee. He liked it just fine. I would never allow that again. LRH does say (somewhere?) it is also up to the PC to demand standard tech. It was my bad to allow it for 20 hours!
Gern — while LRH stated the pith truth “the way out is the way through” – 2500 years before, the Buddha stated that the way OUT of suffering wasn’t to ignore it or not-is it but to work through it to the other side – where understanding of the NATURE of suffering can be found.
(said in a
You Gern are truly confused as evidenced by your various posts today.
Marty never said scientology was zen — he merely quoted a zen expression.
Perhaps you could find someone to do TRs with.
That is after all in part the purpose of the TRs — increasing ones ability to communicate.
WH
UR – in case you didn’t know, Marty has his e-mail address posted in the above menu.
LiBit,
I gotta say it sticks funny with me when you talk about Marty as the steward of the Indep movement, and about how competent his “lieutenants” are, and how “ethically, morally and technically qualified to be leading” that Marty is. Maybe it’s just me. Marty did not ask for, nor did anybody here, elect a leader for “this movement”. Seems like you try and keep making the point that Marty is THE leader. Sounds like a Miscagige thing to me.
If Independent (capitolized or not) movement is even a movement, it is hydra headed, and if it is anything it may be the very very loosest of a cooperative type effort such as independent organic farmers. There is no association or entity, though there may be important common interests, from time to time.
Marty is the owner of this blog – it belongs to him, and I’m glad for the blog and for him, very glad. But Marty is not my leader, and I’m not electing any, although Miscavage seems to want to crown Marty with the title, for the usual crappy Miscavige reasons.
My two cents.
Switching gears back to theta… Calvin, Love your second post today on the Axioms on Duplication! My stance exactly on what’s wrong with the subject: very little actually, it’s just our duplication, pure and simple!
Here’s a little ditty from LRH many possibly have not seen. I believe it’s in R&D 1 (could be early 2 though), where LRH tells a story about comparing learning golf with SCN: too much to duplicate and understand – needs proper personal digestion!
“Now, perhaps you could learn all about this, perhaps, by just reading it and applying it. But there are such things as golf pros. Did you ever try to read how to play a game of golf? I did one time, by the way. I’d been playing a pretty good game. I’d been shooting four times par. I was breaking three hundred.
“And I got ahold of a copy of the Encyclopedia Britannica and decided to learn how to play golf a little bit better. It almost finished me. I couldn’t even get the ball off the tee after that. And when I managed to do so it usually went in the wrong direction, by a hundred and eighty degrees. I don’t know how I did these things, it was fantastic to me: boomerang shots, and every ball I had finally got so tired of being abused in this fashion that each one got itself lost.
“The end of this time I kept wondering what this was all about, why my game had gone off so badly. And I went down and I picked up a pro, an old Scotchman with a rather bitter, dour sort of a humor. I wouldn’t attempt to translate any of it. And he said, well I had just eaten more golf then I had digested.
“Now, it’s very possible for you people to eat more Dianetics than you’ve digested. And I think a lot of you right now are probably in the state of gorge. But the data has not been, well, smoothly coordinated…What we’re trying to do is give you coaching which doesn’t cause you to have indigestion. I want you to digest what you’ve got there.”
Taking Inventory, SOP Step Two – 22 Aug 50 – LA HDRF (Hubbard Dianetics Research Foundation)- page 198.
Eat up! But take your Tums! LOL
Tony, good points.
Can a bunch of individuals, operate in an ethical manner around survival guidelines without a formal organization? Time will test this and the onus is on each and every individual.
Time has tested an organization where the founder was not dead even 30 years and already the activities of the thing he tried to put together have turned 180 degrees from what he hoped, in a shameful mockery of him.
I think your idea of people choosing will be the answer, and I bet also that people will choose based on results. It’s a good start.
++
I support Mike and Christie 100%….they have my total and complete confidence!
Oh, what a surprise! Thanks for the tip. 🙂
Love that last line Scott….
Thankyou O.O. — great comment. My sentiments exactly.
Two thumbs up.
What’s wrong with Scientology Inc.? The organization is not only more corrupt than you imagine….it’s more corrupt than you can imagine.
Oh hell Marty,,,,,,,,,,,,
The sawed-off little anti-social boy-man (david miscabbige) must be about to blow out a one megaton fuse breaker.
What the heck. Let her rip. I look forward to the read and another book in our collection.
Marty,
What is wrong with Scientology?
I have seen it saving lives, bringing sanity back, turning evil to grace. I know you have too.
I have given you compliments and acknowledgments for the things you do and are.
Your site helped d-pts me and many others, spreading light, truth, integrity, courage.
So many people know Scientology is right, but cannot understand how it turned to be so wrong.
The stable datum was: The Tech and Ethics knowledge work! And so, are right! The application and alteration of Scientology by CoS in last few decades, that’s the wrong thing.
This made sense, this seemed always your own opinion too.
The title of your book says a different thing. No matter what is in the book, the words of the title will be those most seen, advertised and spread. English is not my primary language. But it is good enough to understand a simple sentence. And so will thousands, possibly millions: Scientology. Wrong.
So the CoS works Tirelessly for decades to give Scientology a bad name.
And now, the most important person of the independent group, who knows all about it from both sides of the fence – confirms it! Scientology. Wrong.
The book might say many other things, or not… But the title is clear.
And we all use the word: Scientology. We have no other word for this tech, do we?
This makes me very sad. I do not get it. Are we trying to bury that name altogether?
So that no one will dare approach it in any form or shape?
I know I know, I have not read the book yet, and so risk being stupid and wrong with this comment.
And the book possibly has sensible answers for the above difficult questions. I hope so, even if I don’t see how. I am commenting on the title only.
Ben
well Tony, nice write up. Maybe it should be “going up the bridge” is a co-audit action, and not just from a pc point of view. Or there is no just a pc goes up the bridge. But a pc/auditor goes up the bridge. I don’t think it is supposed to take years and years and years to go up the bridge, if LRH’s intentions were to make it smooth and easy for others to go up the bridge. But the present Bridge costs lots of money, lots of money, expanded time and money throughout a life time.
After all LRH says 50% of the gains are training. So maybe the bridge should be a person both as a pc and auditor goes up the bridge. And there are no just pc’s who go up the bridge. I’m just say’in. And if that were the case, auditing would be cheap you might say, and a couple of people could go up the bridge in a year or two.
And enter in Scientology being turned into a money machine, and no doubt over a life time. Ain’t that something. But I thought the goal was to “clear the planet”?
I dunno.
and if a person who was a pc and auditor in training co-auditing, why,
both would know who was changing the processes or changing the definition of F/N or adding in sec checks when you are not supposed to because you are in the middle of a action. Thus ethics would enter in. Or cramming, or whatever. Like Dude auditor, you forgot to ack me. Auditor says, you’re right, my bad. I got it. Let’s continue. PC says great, I’m having fun.
I dunno.
Maybe a better book would be:
“What’s wrong with the Church of Scientology?”
THoughtful, I cannot stop laughing. I know it is not really funny. Sigh.
THanks for the laughing. A lot. Laughter is rejection. Perfect.
who in there right mind could FSM somebody into the church knowing the person, the friend they FSM’s into the church will be subjected to Hard Sell to donate money for programs (IAS, TWTH, NARCONON, WISE, etc) for which the individual desiring to go up the bridge will divert funds to NOT GOING up the bridge. This is doublethink. This is thoughts individual members will not speak, nor talk to others about. But yet, the scientology promotes free speech, free communication. Knowing how to know.
And who in there right mind, who was way up the bridge, would FSM to little people just making a living, reg them or FSM them into CO$ knowing it cost them thousands of bucks, thousands of bucks, and for what, to get into debt via hard sell.
Something is wrong.
John,
Once an old man was sitting in front of the great front gates of a small Kingdom. Out in the distance he saw a figure walking towards him from the forest beyond. Larger and larger the figure grew as the distance between them became less and less. Finally, a tall young strapping lad had presented him self before the front gates, and the gate keeper.
Hey! Hey! Hello! Hello! they exchange greetings.
“Where do you come from?” Asked the old man.
“I come from the village one moon’s walk to the North.” Said the young man.
“What is your purpose?” asked the wise old man.
“To escape from the narrow minds , the constant suspicion, the stupidity, the lack of ambition. Little more could I tolerate that village and the people in it. I saw them all as little more than cattle. My purpose is to find a better people. Ones that please my vision and my mind. And how are the people of this Kingdom?” The younger inquired.
The old man shrugged and looked at his toe while he made a circle in the dirt. “They will be same here.” he said. Knowing that the young man’s ser facs would travel with him wherever he went.
Read your comment from the viewpoint of someone who knows very little, if anything, about Scientology.
PS: The book will absolutely do you some good.
Sorry, meant for John below.
Thomas,
Wow, I can throw even more of a wrench into the works for ya. Prescott wasn’t a General, he was a Colonel. There was a General Putnam, but he didn’t run into Hessians until he got beat at Fort Montgomery, later on. General Warren did die at Breed’s/Bunker Hill. Not only that but after confessing to this overt, LRH then says he was an observer for the Elector of Saxony and his actual overt was to advise to send Hessioans. Hmmmm, what to make of all fo th this. Hmmm.
How about, it was an inaccurate recollection? He’d made a mistake? Was recounting two different overts mixed up the track or maybe even was recalling two different overts of two different beings, both occurring on the day of the Breed’s/Bunker Hill Pyrrhic victory of the English forces. Or the General was Warren, not Prescott, who wasn’t a General, but both were there, and somebody killed Warren, but LRH was actually the observer from the Elector of Saxony, upon whose data the Hessians were subsequently sent.
Now, as to the geologic record, yes, well that’s based on Half Life dating and that unfortunately is a difficult thing since the radio active isotope decay has its li’l clock reset with “nuclear” events, like huge ‘splosions from that globule thingy the “sun” that happen like lots and lots say. Weird, I know, that something that is assumed to be a fully taped and unquestioned fact, like radio active decay dating is well, not so much.
Good luck Thomas in sorting through all this and coming up with your own KRC on your various viewpoints of dimension in the sundry valences and identities assumed through the time track and sifting through what is agreed upon from what actually as-ises YOUR stuff and the stuff around ya.
Wow, now they have “rebooted” an “ideal” org. I was at the original opening of this “ideal” org. I guess it wasn’t so “ideal” in the first place.
http://www.scientology.org/david-miscavige/churchopenings/grand-opening-scientology-ideal-organization-stevens-creek.html
Thomas, I so appreciate your authenicity and passion for asking questions when they arrise and not hiding behind the fear of a discomfortable outcome of your inquiry.
That authoratative slammed down door, that we agreed to, that barrs us from free investigation of any aspect of Ron’s life without fear of being called suppressive, having misunderstoods, being a journalist, being a plant, being a communist plant etc, will shatter, when we allow ourselves the dignity of our own freedom of investigation.
It is truth we pursue, not the myth, cult of personality, or reputation of any human being.
No man or women is barred from healthy investigation. If investigation is fought: you are a slave who fears the truth.
Sorry for unedited crappy writing. 🙂
O.O , two cents accepted! How about just a little artistic
licence granted for me? No literalness intended here.
Val,
DANG!!! That is the Secwet Handshake!!!!
Now the indePendent sCientology (that’s a capital P and C, not to be confused with those Python People’s fRont and such), totally serious and hidden data clique denying their very own existence to conserve beer and Fritos at exclusive parties, is exposed to the deadly seriousness of interest important because of penalty and well this ain’t gonna be ugly, I can tell you that secretly.
Gern, I suggest you look at this with a more flexible mind. You accuse Mike of telling people what to think about themselves then you go right ahead and tell him, firstly that He’s a leading OL in this group and then that as such, He shouldn’t get so easily grumpy towards newcomers and the ‘faithful’ (where TF did that come from?).
Respectfully, you are assigning roles to Mike that, as far as I know he has not publicly assumed. You then proceed to tell him that, as such, he should behave so and so.
If this is what Independent Scn is to you, I’ll take independent Scn (with a small ‘i’), anyday of the week.
O.O. Very good post, I agree. Self determinism & agreement path the way – not a command structure.
Thank you 2Cents, firstly for your ack, and secondly for a VERY digestible meal, as theta always happens to be!
It turns out, that as a former gym owner, personal
trainer and strength coach…..I am habitually only too
keenly aware of the myriad of things that can / do go
wrong when ingesting foods with possibly adverse
reactions, as I’m sure you are too.
The short essay by LRH makes the point abundantly clear
and most amusingly so.
Moving on to the enturbulation cycle we have witnessed
above, makes it even more evident why, one should
recognize “bait”, for what it is, and therefore avoid being
hooked by it in the first place (good ol’ duplication again!)
Much ARC, Calvin.
Good Lord, son. You oughta get paid to write stuff like that! Best damn laugh I’ve had all day!
I have traveled to the parallel dimension last night. The Gods favor Marty. I also was informed there, Miscavige has been cursed with a degenerative disease that causes the body to shrivel to be smaller than the head. I did not inquire as to who issued the curse. I shifted to his where his body lay and confirmed it. His bones were very white and emitting an unusual heat.
Someone is running a bypass on the mortal.
You’ll get no counter-intention from me on that. It’s for the greater good of all humanity, and besides, he’s earned it many times over. Who knows — perhaps he’s even doing it to himself. That also would not surprise me.
loGan jiM, iT iS easY foR mE, i aM aLL thumbS anywaY
Absolutely sure of it ,Marty! I sincerely hope though,
that you are right about the title choice. My wife,
Dorothy, had a similar reaction, to that of Ben, above.
Time alone, may decide the wisdom of that selection.
I feel positive that the reviews and interviews generated
from wide interest, alone, will be more than sufficient to
overcome any shortcomings or a book title!
It really will come down to some thorough CSW on your
marketing strategies, and taking cues from those who
know the business. Then, like Coca- Cola does, just…
PROMOTE…..PROMOTE…..PROMOTE!!!!!
Go for it!
Calvin.
Ronnie, you make me retreat into “greener” pastures!
Now THAT, WH, is sound advice……Gern? Getting it?
Ooops, Davey can’t produce new Idle Orgs anymore and now resorts to re-opening existing ones, just like the revolving Bridge and books.
Ha, ha…Steve Hall owns you boys…
BTW, Ronnie, the menu for today, includes molluscs
with strained seaweed, served on a bed of rock!
Anyone……..?
Smack! smack! No, no Ronnie, NOT all for you!
Take that tentacle out of the dish, guests may feel
offended? Tch, tch, we GREEN (people)!!!!
Green power, includes theta too!………..Calvin.
Towards the end of 1989 i was working at saint hill manor in the uk , it was november or december when David Miscavige came to saint hill , when he came i knew there was something wrong , it felt like the whole base went into a very pervasive incident , ARC at saint went down when David Miscavige was there , the base was not in present time .
Mr. Pardillo,
There IS no Independent Scientology Central Committee. Read some of Marty’s earlier posts as to why he is doing what he is doing and you will find that he has no interest in leading some formal committee or even be in charge of any structured or unstructured adminstration. Who knows how Scientology will evolve once the $Church$ has fallen apart, but it will hinge upon the proper application of the technology, real TRs, real communication, real honest help for PC’s and the concept of true survival in this world as we work towards something better, as LRH originally intended.
What you see as wrong with the $Church$ is correct, IMO. Learn the technology, study it and cram on it and get better and better at it, and there ya go. No big Administrative Thing required. Others may want Marty to take on such a hat, but let’s leave him to do what he is going to do. Especially audit–one of the best damn auditors on the planet.
Ben,
I had the same thought, but let’s cut Marty some slack. He HAS done a lot that has been of great benefit to the SUBJECT of Scientology in the last few years. As a result many non-Scientologists have begun to make a distinction between the subject and anti-social actions perpetrated in the name of the COS by Miscavige and his stooges. This in turn has allowed more and more people to approach the subject itself without bias. And that is a purpose of all true Scientologists…that people check it out and try it out for themselves. So, all I am saying is let’s see what the effect of this book is on public opinion. Marty as well as Mike Rinder have demonstrated some pretty good stats in that area.
Check out this photo! Does anybody think someone painted over that deep, furrowed miscavige brow to make him look just the slightest bit kind and friendly? This is NOT how he looks in real life! He has a very deep, dark vertical cut in his brow that communicates anger and hate. But this photo does’t have it. Hmmmmm…. .. .gotta keep up those lies full time, 24/7, just like the schedules his peons keep. Busted!
Exaclty..i never buy hardcopy anymore and i read constatnly…..
Great idea. I’d be with you.
W-A-Y back in 2009 and I was freshly “out” – arguably the first UK “out” in recent times – and a little disorientated Marty said he’d call me one Sunday. Bang on time, he phoned from Texas as promised and I still got the notes from that call.
When I asked about where the Indie thing was going he said then that it would be little self-determined islands of independent Scientology that would grow, sure, but there would be no leader-led “movement”. Certainly not one he was going to lead. Many supposedly intelligent people have tried to convince me since that Marty is “planning on taking over the Church”. What a joke.
The message has been consistent ever since. Does that mean groups can’t form and help each other? Or that there can’t be Qual or Ethics actions? Of course not. But the days of a regimented organized leader-led body seem to be over for good.
I suppose it’s natural to want to elect a “leader” when there is some one of genuine quality and ability who DOES, and LIVES what he believes. And I am proud to be among such hallowed company. And in all honesty, would I be happy to be in a group with Marty as a leader? Yes, but we all just gotta put our own boots on and walk. That’s the way I see it anyway.
Hi Marty! Congratulations on your book! Looking forward to reading it. I am hoping that you will take into consideration that a lot of people with English as a second language will be reading your book. I am therefore suggesting that you keep the language as easy to read as possible. Also I ask that you provide a glossary of abbreviations. Many of us have tons of mu´s because of all the abbreviations on this site. We read the site anyways and live with the mu´s, but a glossary in your book would be appreciated.
Yours sincerely
Sounded like fun, but I’ve been enlightened …. won’t be with you.
If you say so.
Re: video on idle org. Reboot – What a hoot! Cabbages message was truly funny.
Tunedal,
Are you suggesting that LRH’s body of work is the endpoint? That we no longer need to look or pursue further in our spiritual journey? I’m sure OT8 is wonderful but whatever LRH or anyone else has said, higher spiritual states exist. I have met, more than once, spiritual masters more evolved than any OT I know. Does this invalidate the tech? Hell no! I’m here and this is the path I’ve chosen but I don’t, for a second, think that all answers are held within Scn. I think that is a very small view of the infinite, I’m afraid.
“In the MEST universe, the single crime is duplication.” It is very strange that Hubbard is using the word crime. If one sees that it is strange than you should know there are problems with Scientology itself.
In the MEST universe duplication is impossible. Each being is different and has different views, different “definitions”. Even if those views look very similar. By “definition” a much broader set of ideas should be regarded, not just a set of words as from a dictionary.
I think one of the largest gaps between $cientolgists and non-$cientologists is their reality on what it (Scn) actually is. Here is a simple test…go survey 100 people in your town and ask them this simple question….”Do you think $cn is a good thing or a bad thing?” I would be excited to see the results.
I think you should be a whole lot less concerned about what the public thinks about it. Even if Marty wrote a book called “What is RIGHT with Scientology” do you think the masses would start pouring in for services? Or, will they be lining up to join the Independent move (capital I)?
We claim to have access to the tech of life…the rules the universe runs on, yet the very leader of $cn is an SP. Geez this is like going to a weight loss clinic and all the staff are obese. Or going to an AA meeting and the instructor is drinking.
IMHO, I don’t know how we ever “clear the planet” now, and I am hoping some of you who are smarter than me can paint the picture. Maybe we all need to hang on to a copper wire (thanx for that video Mike and Marty it kills me everytime I watch it! Yesss Sirr!)
Ben,
You have put your trust in Marty and from what you have said, it has paid off. I think all will be well.
As a ‘hook’ (something that attracts or is intended to be an attraction) the title is spot on – it will goad those (few) still in with its effrontery (how dare he!) and entice the haters who think it’s sympathetic to their cause, then snap! it’ll catch them unawares and they’ll discover, to their horror, that they’ve learnt something real about Scientology!
For the rest of us here, well I think it’s just gravy!
I think, the title is good. Even if the book is only 99 % for Scientology, the title communicates that the writers are able to look at the subject objectively.
Anyway, it is a luxury to say as a stable datum: “Tech and Ethics works (100%)”. It means only one thing, maybe two: 1.) fanatism and 2.) idolatry for the tech (in this case inability to observe and progress when the result does not bring the expectation).
There are no perfect systems not even close to perfect.
I think those who apply Scientology in a really good way misduplicated a couple of things:)
Have a cheerful and good day for all of you!
I am not sure what your reply means in the context of my comment.
I can assume that viewpoint easily. It has always been easy for me to see other viewpoints. Also, I am surrounded mostly with non-scientologists, and always found it quite easy to introduce them to the subject. (Having always the CoS making it more difficult in the background…)
And the titles I use go basically like this: “Scientology is very interesting. It is quite incredible and good, it can do many positive things. Yes, it has a bad name, yes, it has been abused…bla bla. Just honest, true, and looking into the person’s eyes. Feeling comfortable. It works.
The other day I had dinner with a friend, non scientologist, knows very little, if anything, about it. But a very big Thetan.
We could hardly start eating, my friend came out with an incredible story of suppression in his life. Real difficult, full of suffering situation. I gave him right away a short account on the subject, with the main points as we know in Scientology, and parallel to that cleared the name and also explained briefly “what is wrong with those that abuse or misapply it” After, after starting with what is RIGHT about it. That was good enough. We haven’t started eating yet… and the friend brightened up started giving strings of cognitions, wanted to know more, and was ready to handle that suppression right away.
We all have done those things, no big deal, but the starting point was positive, RIGHT.
Am I missing something here? Probably. You know all the above better than me. I will wait to see.
In the meantime, the person in the above account got from me the “Suppression booklet” to use. In it addresses of CoS missions and Org and he is already considering going there to take services. Now what? No Indies in my country, no materials, no services, nothing. I have many similar cases, and nothing I can do. This to me is very frustrating and WRONG.
(Big sigh). I wish anyone could tip me how to get that right. And I will of course lend a hand too.
Ben
Well isn’t it possible that you have the tech to sort it out so that a) the TRUE purpose of what he is trying to communicate is realized (I don’t believe he’s being suppressive in asking to be invited to an Indie meet – who *WOULDN’T* want to be invited to such a meet given the circumstances of this community), and b) the two of you don’t opp-term on “communication style” in the future? I mean, these are allies – not enemies – you are evaluating for.
Honestly Mr. Rinder, there is a great deal of trust to be had, and a great deal of trust to lose, with the ways that communication is conducted in this community. All to easily we have seen that the slide back into “Churchie Mechanics” with regards to insults and evaluation is easy .. none of us are fallible in this regard. I continue to wonder just how much of an Auditor hat you’re prepared to wear in this community, especially when I see the very same dramatizations occurring here that caused so much disdain and suffering in the Church .. namely, evaluation, invalidation, and insults where there should be trust-building.
I am not OSA. Just because I target your HE&R as a negative PR aspect of your involvement in this community does not mean that I am OSA. Confront that.
I’ve done my SO Member Hat, twice. I know what LRH says about the SO, and I see the results. The fact is, no organization is going to be above the level of ethics of the group from which it recruits – and in the case of the SO, I believe it has been corrupted by the American (and European) fascist valence which our societies promote as being ‘winning personalities’, which we see being dramatized on a regular basis – here and elsewhere. You don’t have to go far to look.
Always remember, Mr Rathbun, sir, that a Cleared Cannibal is still a Cannibal.
By his actions, Mr. Rinder is an OL in this community. He has done a lot for our cause and he is definitely an up-stat in defending our scene.
I am not ‘a bunch’, I am an individual. Like it or not, the OSA operations have made it such that its very difficult to ‘come out’ as an Independent in this scene. More HE&R from someone who should be leading the way in demonstrating the basics of the subject is definitely not helping those of us who are sitting on the fence about what to do .. I now see that asking to be invited to an independent gathering is a difficult subject, and if I don’t “mind my manners” I’m likely to be expelled from the scene. Hmm .. reminds me of something.
Its not really funny. Actually, somewhat degrading. I’m no Troll – I’m seriously concerned that Mr. Rinder has a hair-trigger HE&R circuit that needs to be flattened, lest we lose a great deal of momentum from newcomers joining the party. Honestly, I’m disappointed in this response.
Great invalidation. Nowhere have I questioned LRH’s ethics tech.
Disinfected: Your comments made me think of this poem. I’m not saying
your right or wrong; maybe Robert Frost would know:
Mending Wall
SOMETHING there is that doesn’t love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun;
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing: 5
I have come after them and made repair
Where they have left not one stone on stone,
But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,
To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean,
No one has seen them made or heard them made, 10
But at spring mending-time we find them there.
I let my neighbor know beyond the hill;
And on a day we meet to walk the line
And set the wall between us once again.
We keep the wall between us as we go. 15
To each the boulders that have fallen to each.
And some are loaves and some so nearly balls
We have to use a spell to make them balance:
“Stay where you are until our backs are turned!”
We wear our fingers rough with handling them. 20
Oh, just another kind of outdoor game,
One on a side. It comes to little more:
He is all pine and I am apple-orchard.
My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him. 25
He only says, “Good fences make good neighbors.”
Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder
If I could put a notion in his head:
“Why do they make good neighbors? Isn’t it
Where there are cows? But here there are no cows. 30
Before I built a wall I’d ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn’t love a wall,
That wants it down!” I could say “Elves” to him, 35
But it’s not elves exactly, and I’d rather
He said it for himself. I see him there,
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.
He moves in darkness as it seems to me, 40
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.
He will not go behind his father’s saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, “Good fences make good neighbors.”
Now what? Get busy.
“……sifting through what is agreed upon from what actually as-ises YOUR stuff and the stuff around ya.”
Sounds like the bottom line to me.
You can bet this was done and Dear Leader airfreighted his applebox to Steven’s Creek so he would have something to talk about at Freewinds Maiden Voyage Events. This will be presented as another amazing achievement — they installed the latest FART Div 6 video equipment — because they had a “ribbon cutting” and POB gave a speech. It’s a completely created video opportunity and nothing more. It will be lumped in with Orange County and Sacramento and probably other CGI “fly-throughs” of buildings not yet completed to make it appear there is a tidal wave of straight up and vertical expansion engulfing the planet in a calming sea of fourth dynamic tranquility (or some such bs).
What is really sad about this is that Craig and Sally Jensen and the rest of the clubbed seals will stand up and applaud wildly when this is “announced”.
But to the outside observer, this is a clear indicator of the desperation of POB — he has to stoop lower and lower to try to cobble together anything to keep the pretense going that he is lording over an ever expanding and ever more powerful empire. In fact, his sandcastle is crumbling on all sides, the inevitable tide is rolling in, and a stray dog just peed on one of his turrets.
It sucks to be Miscavige.
Verily, the battle lines of this universe are literal thinking versus conceptual understanding.
Alas, as an old poem says I am guilty as charged.
Judas, we can all go wherever we want from here. I’m saying: let Scientology be. If you make some discovery, call it something else.
I’ve noticed that Marty seems to have no trouble patching up people’s bad auditing from the Church, although he obviously doesn’t have access to their folders. That’s also true for Les, Trey and probably many others that I don’t know of.
In a growing independent field though there are bound to be a few squirrels and butchers, no doubt about it. The more the PC understands Scientology tech in general and auditing in particular, the better equipped they will be to select a competent auditor and to be sure they are getting the best treatment.
Come to think of it, it’s always been that way.
Ben,
You have brought him uptone and he is cogniting and in need of change …… then continue. It is up to you to do something.
Tell me why you would allow him (or encourage him, heaven forbid!) to pursue a path that would lead him into contact with a known suppressive?
According to Miscavige’s original pronouncement, circa mid-2000’s, all existing orgs were to be completed Idle orgs by 2010 and these were supposed to be generating new orgs opening at the rate of once a week. Compare that to him having to “re-boot” Stevens Creek, Hamburg and Buffalo already-Idle orgs, in order to have enough, along with a few other newly-opened idle orgs, to brag about at MV. Pathetic performance for your premiere strategy, DM.
😉
Howdy friend. I was on the St. Hill Castle renovations team during the time period you mentioned. I worked in Logs as a purchaser. We may have met. Miscavige only showed up for the grand opening once that project was finished, and most of the renos crew were already gone by then (we didn’t hang around a minute longer than we had to, after our job was done).
Your book is a *******MILESTONE******* in the history of Scientology. Never has a Scientologist dared to write a about Scientology.
This is the ” FIRST BOOK” about Scientology from a Scientologist. I hope thousands of books from other authors about all kind of viewpoints about Scientology will follow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We still need following textbooks:
” Dianetics Today”, how modern Dianetics is applied compared to Dianetics of 1950″
” Political Dianetics”, how Dianetics could be applyed to help to solve conflicts in Politics”
” How Dianetics and the procedures of Scientology could help the mentall Ill”
” How to apply Scientology Study Tech in schools, auditing pupils on education !”
” Why is a clear cannibal still a cannibal, what is the difference between an educated clear and a clear without an education”
” Why where the discoveries of Dianetics about prenatals rejected by the establishment in 1950 and in 2010 Psychologists are using prenatal therapy as common knowledge but still reject Dianetics ?”
” Was the clear as described in book 1 just a postulate or did he really exist ? A history of the evolution of Dianetics”
” Why is the whole bridge from after grad IV til OT7 only Dianetics ?”
” Is the clear as described in Book only achieved on OT7, free of all circuitry”
” LRH said Scientology is the culmination of 50 000 years of thinking of men. Why didn’t he aloud his disciples or men to continue to think about Scientology and why did he establish himself as sole authority forever ?”
Man, I could go on and go on about all the things I would like to better understand about Scientology and Dianetics.
So please all the prolific writers here. Write your books about what you think and provide your solutions. More books = more understanding.
So many things weren’t confronted by Scientologists in the last 60 years.
While other discoveries of Mankind are used to discover new things at a very fast speed. Dianetics and Scientology are holy scripture and nobody has the right to write a book about it or utter new postulates, thoughts or visions about and only LRH can discover new things ?
In anticipations of the answers I’ll get to that post I ask those people to answer themselves this question:
Dos is a functioning computer Operating system. It functions and you can operate a computer with it 100%. Why do you at all use a Windows Computer ?
And for those who still don’t understand what I’m talking about. I didn’t say one has to change or squirrel the tech !
Scientologist are missing 1000ds of viewpoints and could be helped to better understand their own philosophy in a more encompassing way.
More books are written about a subject more that subject is alive !
have a good day ! 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
Hi Ben,
I think of it this way. Most non-Scientologists hear what is bad about Scientology. Maybe they are curious about what is or has been going on with it?
They could have interest in finding out about it and read this book. While doing so, they will get an accurate accounting of what is wrong with corporate scientology and what is RIGHT with the applied philosophy of Scientology.
If the book was titled : What is Right about Scientology, do you really think lots of people would flood to buy it?
I personally don’t think they would.
To me, it would sound like some Kool Aid drinker trying to push his crap on me and I wouldn’t be interested.
Well…just another viewpoint for you.
Jim, thanks for the additional data on Prescott and carbon dating which makes sense. I appreciate your viewpoints. Yes, there are other possibilities as you suggest, and I agree with Max that the bottom line, as you said, is how one sifts through this and what as-is’es.
Interesting double standard you apply, and the direction you do so.
Interesting double standard you apply, and the direction you do so
Interesting double standard you apply, and the direction you wield it.
Interesting double standard you apply.
Sorry, Tune but now I’m calling you on the bullshit. So, any discovery, any further process that fully subscribes to the axioms and fundamental principles but is not sanctioned by LRH is not Scientology? If you really believe that I suggest you listen to the Study tapes again because you are describing a dead subject, right there.
Brian,
Thank you very much for your response which is also appreciated, and I agree wholeheartedly that truth is the most important thing, it is the only thing. Some call truth “entheta”, but it is merely truth, wherever it leads, and that’s the only thing one should ever sign up for. Whatever the facts of Einstein’s personal life, it doesn’t change e=mc², so one shouldn’t fear to question either the man or his work. I think the key is as you said, “healthy investigation” in order to arrive at the truth and understand.
Lookin forward to the read Marty.
?? Not at all, very well expressed.
Exactly as you say, Les.
Jesus, Nonono are you for real?
You’re on the fence and you’re waxing critical about the behaviour of those in the trenches?
That’s priceless!
Ronnie
You probably have met me , I started there in 1988 working on finishing the castle . i was working on the castle renovations until about september 1989 , then i was sent to work with estates .
🙂
Nonononononono,
(Sorry, I got on a roll there, nonononono, it’s apparently easy to do, nononononono!!!!) Whew, it stopped.
Ok, yes well speaking of funny THAT post of yours if funny 🙂
Boy,
You sure as shootin’ SHOULD have ‘questioned” LRH’s ethics tech, otherwise in the absence of your own personal observation, well you won’t really get the message. You do recall LRH himself saying stuff like that don’t you?
The title: What is Wrong with Scientology
It’s a brilliant title. Stirs controversy. Just look at the various comments on this blog and not all are from possible trolls.
Books are meant to sell; otherwise, they are just a form of self-aggrandizement …
And controversy remains the best way to get 1) TV stations to interview the author 2) Radio stations to interview the author 3) blogs to blog about it
etc etc
Well done to Marty and his esteemed editors!! Looking forward to this book.
WH
Hilarious! I would love to be at “Any” or “any” beer and Fritos party you are at! Thanks for the chuckle 🙂
TR’s? Non-sequitur of the month.
I’m asking for levity and theta when dealing with the formation of the Independent Scene, particularly from the more curmudgeonly members of considerable altitude, and you’re going to lecture me about TR’s?
P’shaw!
We will either eat ourselves, or we will learn to harvest.
Whats it going to be?
Ermm.. why?
Hi Aeolus,
That answer is real to me.
But, why then is there SO much attention on having ALL the folders at hand and doing HOURS of FES work if it is not a big deal if the folders are’nt there? Just curious.
Oh yes, and one of the actions to create an Idle Org is supposed to be to get their CF current. This was done for Buffalo in the original evolution, but not long before the recent “Re-Booted Re-opening” I was getting emails asking me to come work on their project to get CF current. Just goes to show again, how sucking parishioners of every cent to build an opulent oversized set of quarters does nothing to get in the administrative and tech functions that make a real org.
>martyrathbun09 | June 11, 2012 at 11:55 am |
>Interesting double standard you apply, and
>the direction you wield it.
If its ‘interesting’, then please expand and explain what on earth you are talking about. Sir!
Have I insulted someone? Called them an idiot? Made derogatory comments about someones sanity? Evaluated for the other person, crossed terminals with them, opp-term’ed?
I wonder, how will Independent Scientology expand, if its current membership is incapable of demonstrating even the slightest respect for the new and in-bound who are looking for sanity, not just More Of The Same ™ kind of ill treatment?
Hi T.O. So very right here. No escaping it.
Say, I sent you a whole bunch of stuff O6 June.
Did it arrive?
I believe LRH set a trap for societys’ Fascists, with the Sea Org. Where the Authoritarian Valence is running the case, the SO buttons will be there for a-pushin’ and when they arrive, well .. green-on-white will sort ’em out, or they’ll end up on decks. Where all fascists, reforming, belong.
Wow! They are doing the same thing at Buffalo – which is why there was a dumpster in front of it in that pic a few weeks back.
I went by the Portland org a couple of weeks ago. The address that is advertised on their web page is actually closed with a BIG for lease sign on it. The building where the new idle org is to be located has a construction shack in front and a few workers here and there – I saw maybe two or three, and this was mid-week. The storefront next door is where the org is while they build out the new building, and it was EMPTY, save one lone receptionist who looked bored out of her mind. EMPTY. When the open the new building, they will increase their square feet of unused space into screaming affluence. Maybe with the videos, they can even remove the receptionist.
>When I see parallels in the conduct of the Independents, I am disappointed.
I’m with you, John Pardillo. A Cleared Cannibal is still a Cannibal. There will have to be some real Auditor Training and then WDAH’s before that changes in the current scene, I’m afraid.
What I think is wrong with Scientology: too many want personal freedom and gains and are unwilling to do what it takes to deliver it to others, i.e. same as it ever was. Our societies aren’t producing the breeds they used to, the selfless sort, the ones who would actually prefer to be an Auditor before being a PC.
That said, I highly value Marty’s blog, and the community that has formed herein. I hope we won’t get too many fires started before the barn is built.
This looks great, and this is a great crew of editors. Kudos to doing this.
As far as sacred cows go, being Independent does not mean “Mr. David Miscavige is an SP so I am taking my toys and going home,” it means being independent of thought and action, and no longer taking things blindly from some “authority” but thinking with the subject. This will invariably mean that Scientology itself will be reviewed, and we will all (being independent beings) come to some different conclusions.
This is good! As we go through the process of looking at Scientology in a new unit of time, with RTC and OSA fetters off, the truth of what is there will become rock solid. Corporate folks have to accept without question, say, that every critic of “Scientology” is a raving SP, and refuse to evaluate that datum in the context of Mr. David Miscavige and his minions and what is happening NOW in Present Time. HOW CAN THEY TRULY UNDERSTAND the core data of Scientology, such as what causes ARC Breaks, why it matters, etc, when they never really look and evaluate?
If wrong datum A MUST BE AGREED TO, and you don’t look to really see if it is wrong or right, how can you possibly know if it is right or not? You don’t.
I welcome this book! Thanks, Marty.
What i would hope happens as that individuals band together to form varous independant Orgs. The indie field has access to both the Red and Green vols. As with the individual, if they dont wish to cooperate, fine. If they do fine. In the example of not sharing folders, even if butchered 1) buyer beware, look at who you hire to audit you. 2) i believe a competant auditer and c/s can use repair tech to fix a case even in the absence of folders. My first auditer in Scn was a Level IV intern who at times flubbed up pretty good. But it always got fixed and i really enjoyed the auditiing as i never doubted her sincere desire to help me. If by and large the indie field is trying to help people sincerely, the results overal will be pretty fantastic.
Nonono, Please use some common sense here. Maybe use the Non-e Formula if you really want to be included in anything. Nobody here “owes” anyone anything. A person/being has the right to communicate or be freinds with anyone they wish or not. The only people i’ve known im my life that enforce com are SO managment (especially CMO) and pychs. For sure, one cant make friends efffectively by pissing them off first. In person maybe u can easily repair things cuz both bodies are present and each have to confront one another to some degree. But it the inpersonal internet, first impressions are critical and percieved attacks from people unknown to u not easily forgiven. My 2cents.
WRONG: adj.
1. not in accordance with what is morally right or good: a wrong deed.
2. deviating from truth or fact; erroneous: a wrong answer.
3. not correct in action, judgment, opinion, method, etc., as a person; in error: You are wrong to blame him.
4. not proper or usual; not in accordance with requirements or recommended practice: the wrong way to hold a golf club.
5. out of order; awry; amiss: Something is wrong with the machine.
[Dictionary.com]
It is a mistake to identify the many distinctly different concepts of this word. I think that doing so is the reason it is a button for most. The first three definitions tend to be invalidative, which illicit the expected response from a reactive being. The fourth is very applicable to the misapplication of a technology. However, the last, which is most likely the concept that Marty is communicating with the title of his book, is something that definitely needs to be confronted if one is to fix something – in this case, Scientology (the application AND the organization.)
I for one think it is the perfect title.
I can’t wait for the well written and double well edited “Medicine” in the form of a book. It seems that the medicine has proven that it has good efficacy, before being released, judging from the number of Trolls frequenting this blog with their righteous indignation and double standards!
🙂
I think trying to question something as scientific valid as carbon dating, which has repeatedly been proved correct again and again, merely to try rationalize some “past life memory” of LRH made a comment about makes indies and Scientologists look desperate and looney.
Radiocarbon dating was a great achievement. Can things effect the results of carbon dating, such as a nuclear explosion? Sure, and scientists have carefully taken into account different factors which may effect the results – including the ancient atmosphere of earth having different gaseous and element compositions.
As for nuclear or atomic episodes effecting carbon decay, here’s how they ensure accuracy with carbon dating results:
“The surrounding environment can also influence radiocarbon ages. The introduction of “old” or “artificial” carbon into the atmosphere (i.e., the “Suess Effect” and “Atom Bomb Effect”, respectively) can influence the ages of dates making them appear older or younger than they actually are. This is a major concern for bone dates where pretreatment procedures must be employed to isolate protein or a specific amino acid such as hydroxyproline (known to occur almost exclusively in bone collagen) to ensure accurate age assessments of bone specimens. Alone, or in concert, these factors can lead to inaccuracies and misinterpretations by archaeologists without proper investigation of the potential problems associated with sampling and dating.
To help resolve these issues, radiocarbon laboratories have conducted inter-laboratory comparison exercises devised rigorous pretreatment procedures to remove any carbon-containing compounds unrelated to the actual sample being dated, and developed calibration methods for terrestrial and marine carbon. Shells of known age collected prior to nuclear testing have also been dated (http://radiocarbon.pa.qub.ac.uk/marine) to ascertain the effects of old carbon (i.e., local marine reservoir effects).”
stfu.
Except, read Bill Bryson – you science cultists are a trip. If that offends you, read Scott Tyson, The Unobservable Universe, and William James, The Will to Believe. Help you to transcend.
That book would be bigger than the Encyclopedia Galactica.
BTW: Carbon dating is for organic lifeforms and their ages. Geology is rocks and without going into any detail we are specifically thinking about volcanoes. So maybe you want attack plate tectonic theory?
It always amazes me when Scientologists who claim to be dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge are so quick to dismiss real scientific knowledge, usually without even the most fundamental understanding of it. I’ve met a few who only came into contact with real science in some effort to prove it wrong, only because they wanted so badly to “make” LRH right! It’s crazy!
It’s also sad how many 2nd gen SO members I’ve met who have zero formal education in science, or many other fundamentals. Their ability to think critically and understand concepts outside of CoS has been terribly stunted, but they have no idea because DM has spent years telling them how superior to “wogs” they were and any wog knowledge is inferior.
You’re probably right that I’ve met you, but I can’t place you without a name. Sounds like you were S.O. staff at the time. None of the hired renos folks worked in estates (which is S.O. staff only).
Man, have I still got war stories from that project. It was a doozy.
Heh….I never left, and I’ve been kickin’ since day one.
For me Thomas, it took about two years after I formally resigned to sort out what was true for me and what was not.
It was difficult because I had agreed for so long that questioning Ron was really a suppressive thing, or a misunderstood word, or an evil intention, being “opened minded” (the redifining of that concept needs looking into) etc.
After I reclaimed my Independence from assigning the keys to my spiritual advancement from Ron (or anyone but my own sincere spiritual practice) and kept the wonderful things that he taught and discarded the rest (for me), I realized that the bridge was really Ron working out his own salvation through the processes he created.
I also concluded that some of the bridge was an externalization of some of his personal unresolved issues. And that is heresy of the first order. Sorta like saying to a Christian that Jesus is not the only son of God, or that Ron didn’t realize that which he was working towards, namely total cause over MEST: total freedom.
I have since found truly liberated souls. Masters of this dream called MEST.
They are rare but they are there. If you want to find them.
And besides the definite demonstrated qualities of total cause over all life that they exhibit ( but not for BPI), the qualities that, one for one, they honor more than spiritual power is humility, service and an infectious love for all life: including evil free thinking apostates as myself.
Be willing to experience anything, love despite all provocations to do other wise.
May all beings be free, loving, powerful and happy!
I take a tissue wherever I go. Like Ford Prefect and his towel, you just never know when it’s gonna come in handy.
Same ol’ same old. Why don’t you guys make your own “community” party wherever you want and just go to that. As far as our party goes, you stink. No poo allowed at our party. Poo -you. No- go. Waaaaaaaaa.
Gern,
You are an idiot. You are also poo. And more of that, to you.
This whole string of trolling is so much trolling. But, in your gase, it’s grolling. And this is about as serious as I’m willing to be with gou, Gern.
Very well Gern, what service are you delivering currently?
Not offended, just constanly stunned at this tendency. Occam’s razor maybe? I am not, nor have never been a cultist, unlike many CoS members. Science is not a cult, I’m not sure if it makes it easier for people to dismiss it by framing it that way, because it doesn’t align with a religious belief. To avoid MUs –
Science:: knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through the scientific method and concerned with the physical world and its phenomena.
Physical world – that’s pretty key. Most scientists tend to avoid the spiritual or metaphysical because it is near impossible to get hard truths or facts from it by using the scientific method – besides there is still plenty in the physical world that needs to be explained and verified. So the two worlds don’t need a turf war.
I guess what might offend me is how dismissive many Scientologists are about real science – only to be strident about how perfect and true every word of LRH is.
The real problem is this attitude, inside the CoS, leads to raising children with no formal education and even distrusting any “wog knowledge.” You know what kind of results that gets? Ignorant bullies like DM. You don’t need to shun or dismiss science of the physical world in order to pursue the spiritual world of Scientology.
You.
Sunny,
You’ve mistaken the dating systems.
Clue: radio CARBON vs. radio active. Good luck.
When I asked about where the Indie thing was going he said then that it would be little self-determined islands of independent Scientology that would grow, sure, but there would be no leader-led “movement”.
Martin, that description of where independent Scientology is going, mirrors my own very closely. In a nutshell, the corporation has lost control of the technology, and has so abused the trust of the vast majority of its parishioners, that it has forced the birth of a new organizational paradigm.
I see the Scientology Independence movement as analogous to the Protestant movement which initially split the Catholic church. Prior to that, the Vatican was the all-powerful central organization that held control over every Christian church and congregation. The Protestant movement changed all that. Today, any group of like-minded Christians can form a church and build a congregation – anywhere in the world. They don’t answer to Rome. Only to the tenets of their religion, and their own group agreements.
I see the Independence movement resulting in the same thing for the Scientology religion. In time, we’ll see organizations forming up which are thoroughly disconnected from the mother church, and operating totally independent of them. In fact, it’s already begun.
I also feel that the Protestant model is the absolute best guarantor of the survival of Standard Tech, and for achieving the aims of Scientology. We’ve seen what can happen when the technology, finances, properties, PR, and the entire sub-culture, are controlled from a distant clique of elite managers.
I feel a lot more comfortable in the knowledge that the tech is in the hands of many, many trustworthy people, rather than locked up and controlled by a very few, who can (and have) gone into treason against the group.
Ben, something can be 98% “right” and just 2% “wrong”, and it is perfectly reasonable to say “What is wrong with …….”
The first step towards correcting an outpoint is recognizing it exists. And by this time, “scientology” has received and is receiving enough negative press that “What is wrong with scientology” seems like the perfect entry point to connect with many publics.
In short, I think it’s a very good title for the book at this time.
Oh for crying out loud. Adults sometimes have ARC breaks. Try not to be so serious about it. Let people hash out their differences with communication, would ya? It’ll all wash out eventually. Sometimes the best friendships begin with busting each others’ noses. Didn’t you learn that as a kid?
Chill already.
I think so too.
Thanks for posting the definitions.
What a commotion this little word with its significance can steer up.The wrong-right problem – when that is handled, it will be more peaceful on this little planet. : )
Nonono,
I think you’re right only as far as it goes. No matter where they were recruited from, S.O.members were supposed to be guaranteed daily training and processing time which was to get them up to OTIII as a minimum, and trained up to Class VIII as time passed. This did not come to pass. If it had, the group WOULD HAVE risen above it’s origins.
Obviously if you recruit from off the street and do nothing to develop and raise the tone and understanding of the individuals of the group, it will remain where it started. Or even get worse.
And if you want to see really outstanding examples of that merciless “winning valence”, look towards the cultures of the East as well. It is not only Western, it is endemic all around the planet. It is “human”.
ononononon,
Misbehaving scenes are a drag.
I would strike preemptively and expel the scene from myself for it misbehaving the way it has been doing recently. That should square things right up.
ononononon,
If not OSA, maybe ASO?
When marty’s book comes out, we should each buy 1,000 copies and distribute them to all the libraries in the USA, Canada, Europe, and where ever else we may be. Then, when OSA sends in its bots to steal all the copies, we buy another 2,000 copies each. Half go back to the the libraries, and the other half we bulk mail carreir rout sort to every address in Clearwater, and those zip codes in the LA area we know ScnBots to be concetrated. Just kidding guys, I always hated being hit up to buy a bunch of books for “library” projects…but its fun to think of OSA scrabling to handle all that flow 🙂
Tony, I suspect it’s all part of the big pretense Flag likes to maintain, that they are sooooo on top of things and soooooo “standard’ and “spot on”.
I made two brief trips to Flag in the 1990s, and both times there was talk of them doing FESs of my folders, but come to think of it, I don’t think they did squat. And I think they possibly even had NO folders of mine! I’m sure they did not have my earliest and meatiest folders, from when I was I was audited by a Field Auditor and at the Mission in Ann Arbor, before the “massacre”.
And I feel they were withholding from me on the subject.
Don’t have a pat answer Tony, but almost everything else in the Church is micromanaged beyond all reason; why not folders?
The best auditing I’ve had came from a field auditor who did most of my lower Bridge. She had access to a CS (most of the time), but definitely no hours of FES work. Next best was probably my own solo auditing.
Ironically, the worst auditing was on the Freewinds. I didn’t know yet about Little Davey’s 3 swing rule, but I couldn’t help but notice the auditor waiting for the meter to “play Dixie”. That, and she seemed obsessed with finding every time I’d ever amused myself with a certain part of my anatomy and pulling the withhold on it, whether there was any charge there or not (almost exclusively uncharged pleasure moments, go figure). If I’d really pulled the string on just those two outpoints, I might have been Independent a couple of years earlier.
It seems to be taking quite a long while for you to
get it, Gern (that is, to duplicate) Marty has “put a
mirror” in front of you several times, so as to take
a good look at WHO is applying a double standard
by his words and actions here.
If you genuinely want to be accepted (here,) quit
lacing your comments with venom, as an unending
compulsion. THAT…is a double standard, mon ami.
In short, be yourself. That is, the guy who gets to
feeling Keyed out at a successful conclusion to
TR-O. (hence the recommended drill, which works)
So, Gern, in your words….what’s it going to be?
Marty,
I am happy that you wrote a book and
I look forward to reading it.
May all authors be well and happy!
George M. White
Espiritu,
Marty has all the slack in the world, and earned it honestly. He has my full appreciation and gratitude. Still we all have our opinions and this is a good place to share and care. We all speak from deep care, and that is wonderful. I will be most happy to be proven wrong on the title issue.
Umm. Not true. How do you think you as-is the bank? As-is or run out engrams? From the MEST universe’s point of view (such as it is) duplication is a crime because it alone will unmock the MEST universe. Hence the word “crime.”
Good idea Marty. I’ll take it! Here’s “me getting busy” plan:
1. I am already running a full scale business in difficult times. I keep that full time activity, so I can eat.
2. I Establish/build “state of the art” publishing and printing house to print Scientology books and materials
3. Fight and win all litigation against me for doing so.
4. On all these books write only addresses of able theta true Tech Indie experts.
5. Not being sure how to spot who really qualifies, I will somehow train myself to class 12 auditor/CS.
6. Now, I will somehow pull myself out of the big hole I got into after last bridge cycle at the CoS, find my
exact bridge spot and climb up the OT levels to OT 8 (at least)
Having done all these easy few preliminary steps, I can really get busy now:
7. Travel to every Indie service provider anywhere, check how good/standard he/she is.
8. Update Indie quality group addresses on the books I have printed, and give to all those in need.
9. Fight and win a 2nd wave of litigation against me.
10. having done so many nice things (while always still running the full scale business) I now manage to
convince some Indies that we need to organize. As much as we all suffered from “big organization going
bazurk/crazy”, to do anything on any noticeable scale in this crazy world, you have to ORGANIZE. Or else
remain scattered and weak. And not really able to help people on a large scale.
11. Now that the need to organize and expand is recognized by more and more Indies, A way/system is
worked out to be a real, living, breathing, full of Theta, alternative to the CoS. And how to never ever fall
into the same trap the CoS did.
12. Now we turn to a very able powerful wonderful courageous Thetan , Marty, who knows so well all that is
WRONG and also RIGHT with Scientology, from different viewpoints; Who has demonstated beyond
Any doubt high level of integrity, and THAT HE IS NOT FOR SALE – and ask him to lead this new
alternative, as the only way to really make things go right. And the only way to reach again many people
everywhere. Even in far away country like mine.
13. Having him agreeing to do that, and using all the knowledge and Tech and proper Ethics and tons of
integrity and freedom and THETA, this new venture and adventure can’t help but succeed and get
supported and cherished by 97.5% of the population. (The remaining 2.5% can have their own park to
have fun with each other.)
14. Piece, prosperity and new world order prevail…
I started this as a funny protest to the “get busy” advice. But as it unfolded I think at least some parts of it are possible food for thought.
Ben
Hi Tonydephillips,
Ok, I do get that viewpoint. But consider, creativity has no limits. It does not have to be either WRONG or RIGHT in the title. It can be all kind of things. For example: “The amazing truth about Scientology” that can present an attractive box into which one can pour anything he wishes. or: “Things you never dared asking about Scientology”. Just to get my point. Anyway, Marty has made his choice and I wish that this choice works fine!
How will Independent Scientology expand, if its current membership…..
Are you saying this blog represents some kind of “Independent Scientology” – are you saying that those who are most well-known here have to act like 1950 hostesses? And what are you talking about “membership” for?? What membership? I am DONE with membership, and bet you can search this blog from the beginning, and you will find no membership, nothing like it. Only one individual, another individual, another individual, waking up, thinking for themselves.
The people in that messed up crap of CoS, COM, or whatever you want to call the MEMBERSHIP, IAS, whatever, is the saddest, most degrading mess to come along and pretend to help humanity in a long time. I don’t see anything like that here, not one thing. Wanna know the difference? No puppetmaster here, kid. We don’t want no stinking badges either.
I have noticed that if this blog is not your cup of tea, then nobody forces you to stay. I have found it to be open, so a person can simply quietly leave, no big tizzies and scenes and people trying to chain you down to keep you here. It is a very free thing. Some with agendas still try to stir things up, perhaps to be able to “report back” some little tidbits or other. SIgh. As though that creates a big effect around here or something.
Also,there is no barn being built here, DO you see a barn?
No buildings. No leaders. No membership. No must-have or must-do. Lots less MEST. Whoah. Once all that is gone, lots of good stuff can happen – moving on up a little higher, for instance.
What you are looking at is free people. WHich admittedly drives some people nearly insane with rage.
You can’t MAKE me do anything, and I can’t MAKE you do anything either. How about that? .
Sunny,
Carbon dude, CARBON. Wrong material. Only dates to what, 14,000 years. Geez, before you leap, make sure you aren’t flyin’ off into tin air, dere wha’.
Holy Cripes.
Correction, the claim these days is up to 60,000 years, Sunshine. There you go, you can be half-right (hee, half-right/half-life. That’s a good one. Even if it isn’t all that accurate, hee.)
Lil Bit,
I don’t have any vids. Tracks yes. A couple I like. Blues stuff. If you write me I’ll send one to you 🙂
Ha!
Hey Valkov,
I was thinking the same thing….
Hi Aelous,
🙂
PJ
DM reminds me of Orwell’s 1984 where the ‘Ministry of Peace’ is really doing all the wars. Outwardly an almost insane push for Standard Tech
constantly keeping that carrot in front of an auditor in training yet at the same time committing and condoning the most outrageous out-Tech.
A few years back when reading that ED or RTC issue that all “Arbitraries have been cancelled” even though I was no Indie then, I didn’t buy it and indeed the arbitaries had worsened as I found out once I really looked into it.
There are plenty of similar examples in the governments. I am most careful of the Dept. of Health…..or the WHO….
Greta
Ben I understand your viewpoint on this, but as Marty said ” Read your comment from the viewpoint of someone who knows very little, if anything, about Scientology.”
To the average person on the street, there is no differentiation between the Co$ and the technology of Scientology. Scientology is in my experience is assumed by the general public to be the Co$. So having a title saying “What is wrong with Scientology” will be read by the non-scientologist to mean what is wrong with the Church of Scientology.
I would guess that for the Scientologists out there that read the book, both in and out of Co$, that it will raise the question of “does he mean the tech or is he talking about the church? It’s a good hook in my view.
So I suppose the affect of the title depends on what ones prior experience is with Scientology and which definition of the word Scientology is used.
For Gern.
Hey Gern,
A question/s for you?
Is Gern your real name or are you still using a cover name? Just curious.
Also, you seem to be very concerned and apparently responsible for where the Indie movement is going. What are you doing to actively forward it?
Hi Ben,
I like that you are communicating honestly. I don’t know if you are out of the cult openly or not or for how long.
Out here people do what they think is right and that is that. I am sure your input has value. It may or may not be heeded.
IMHO the Indie movement is many groups of people creating the tech to the best of their ability.
Maybe you could create your own group and show the rest of them how it is done. No disrespect intended.
Just the word “WRONG” makes some need to be “RIGHT”.
Let’s flattent this thing…
Wrong.
Wrong!
WRONG!! flunk you flinched…
Wrong.
Wrong.
You are wrong!!!
You are wrong!!
You are out-ethics!!! Flunk you laughed…
🙂
Much more succinctly put in their place than I could have ever ranted back Sinar! I’m glad I bit my tongue !!
The Mike I adore, laying it on thickly, the way it looks
best on the perpetrator of miscavigeoholism.
Jim, now we’re getting this on. To be clear, I’m actually asking if you have any clips of YOU in action on the drums? That’s what
I’d love to see, muzo. Thanks either way.
Calvin.
Two really good people, both excellent at what they did at RTRC. Impressive!
Friend, I suggest you read the basic books of Scientology, leaving behind no misunderstood words. Smart person like you ought to have no trouble breezing right through them. If you then sought out a capable auditor in the Independent field for a little introductory auditing, I think nearly all of your questions would be answered.
Scientology can’t be understood by studying it the way one studies a fish in the lab. You actually have to climb in the water and swim a bit.
Gern, your responses evoke the word ‘levity’ like combat fatigues evoke the descriptive, gossamer.
I say you are a troll and I say you have lost this round.
+++ truly amazing truth +++ THANK YOU!
The tech is a truly wonderful thing but it is not senior to life or the beings living it. If we raise it to the status of divine, absolute doctrine it will perish.
Martin, succinct articulation of what I was saying
metaphorically. Let me be clear, though, the comparison was merely between two individuals
and (IMHO!!) WHO was BETTER suited to be “leading
the recovery of Scientology”—– NOT the LEADER of the Independent Movement, or any other of the
wildly “alter-is’ed” notions attributed to what I actually
said. Re-reading for duplication, is always a valid
exercise if one wants to avoid aberration .
Tell you what though, Martin, the very last person
you will find standing waiting for self- aggrandizement
is Marty! Probably why others,uninvited, tend to do
it for him. It is painfully obvious that he completely
eschews admiration, and is yet another reason to
see him as the POLAR opposite of DM.
Leader? Perhaps a controversial choice of word!
I think GIANT among men. Anyone of any substance
disagree with that opinion too??
Oh! me hearties, and that other big button, some have on their own self importance, do us a favour:
…….Grow up!!!! (you don’t NEED the button, you
ARE important! Okay? Geez!!!!!!!!)
Your closing sentence ….” Yes, but we all just gotta
put our own boots on and walk.”
Spot on — the bottom line of being an Indie, of course!
Thanks mate,
Calvin.
Yeah!…. Heh..heh.I can tell and ever”GREEN” too!
Grasshopper, nice clarification! Let us see if this is
sufficient to assist “gODd” to reach “understanding.”
I was not S.O. staff , i was working for S.I.P.R.O. Joe Crass did not want me working on the castle anymore after a transformer fell off a tower scaffold , he thought i was PTS , so i was sent to do things for estates , i used to burn LRH books down at the incinerators , nothing confidential , just books like first edition copies of the phoenix lectures , tens of thousands of books , the RPF used to burn them as well , hardly anyone asked why they were being burned . I now know why they were burned , because the books were writiten differently after that and they are not by LRH anymore , books you buy today with LRHs name on them are not by LRH !
Dan should come back to the US. He looks too darn frozen there in Sweden…
Greta
Damn! Coffee on my screen, again! Just awesome wit (and wisdom), Steve!
Sometimes people used to stop at the incinerators to tie their shoe-laces and after they tied their shoe- laces there would be a slight bulge under their coats .
http://www.stss.nl/
I will never be calm about idiots changing (“advancing”, “improving”) the work of LRH and still calling it Scientology. This happened to buddhism and the subject was actually lost.
The book? Well, I will not read it. It’s the title.
LOL Tony
I guess it doesn’t matter because his credentials are awesome, but Dan Koon was also Senior C/S Int for awhile, no?
Check out Science of Survival. LRH says the trademark 1.1 trait is always to cover their hostility by expressing concern for the general well being — “I’m just trying to help.” LRH said when you hear someone say that, you should just think “1.1” because most of the time you will be right.
Here is this troll, expressing all tangled up in “concern” about the Indie Movement how it’s going to get started. And it’s totally not real.
When people come in, they are normally outraged about the CoS abuse — tearing their families apart, stealing all their money, delivering out tech.
They see this blog as a safe haven and normally have ONE focus: venting their BPC over the abuses and violations they have seen and experienced.
But not trolls — they don’t have that focus at all — that’s why they are unreal by definition. The “R” is totally shot. Sure they pay lip service to “how bad the Church is” but their main focus is criticism of us, Mike or Marty, etc. And they all stick together.
They work in teams. One guy attacks and the other one or two stick up for him — covering his tracks with “reasonable” arguments which are just BS.
Tony, I know you know this, so I’m not really talking to you, but generally least anyone be fooled. The guy’s concerns are UNREAL = TROLL.
Damn Roger, are you thinking Independently? Describing thoughts in your own language? Questioning authority? Directly perceiving a reality after due consideration and a passion for clarity? Allowing yourself to know?
Standing ovation!
Thought: what I love about this forum Marty, is that, for me, it is helping people to express themselves about Scientology, Ron, the bridge etc. without the trepidation of being found guilty of thinking the unapproved thought.
And I appreciate being allowed to voice my view that I know is not comfortable for some.
All those whose reality toes I have stepped on, I say thank you for allowing me the freedom of communicating without being demonized.
You have no idea how much I appreciate that.:-)
And it is that tolerance of differing views that will be the wind billowing the sails of Independence, as this movement blends into the societal evolution narrative.
Hey Ben, I just read your first comment. Sorry, but you could not be more mistaken and the problem comes down to your own lack of confront and not-ising the existing scene.
The public already believe Scientology is wrong. They believe that in overwhelming force. A 2006 Gallup survey found that Scientology is the rock-bottom lowest respected religion on earth. Because you cannot confront that glaringly obvious truth, you can not think with anything else, but still feebly hold onto a fixed idea.
If you don’t acknowledge anything is wrong, you don’t have a comm line to anyone but those people on the inside with the blinders on.
If you can acknowledge that there is something wrong, you then have a comm line and you will have someone at least willing to hear what you have to say. If what you say makes sense, then you can establish agreement.
Reference definition of As-isness, Scientology Axiom 19, etc.
You need to confront the actual existing state of Scientology’s reputation. The truth is not going to kill you or harm Scientology. The truth opens the door to a handling.
Hi Steve,
It’s good to have all this as hatting for those who don’t know it. Those are all excellent points. 🙂
gato……..collagen injections, and the’re relatively cheap
for the average person. This puffs out even “… a very deep,
dark vertical cut in his brow ……”
Real life photo shopping this stuff. ..gotta keep up those lies
full time, 24/7, blah blah blah….Busted!
REALLY sucks to be Miscavige!
So, you were hired SIPRO crew (Scientology International Properties Renovations Org), and Joe Kras (not Crass) sent you to work with the S.O. guys in Estates burning tens of thousands of LRH books? And you say that you were on the Saint Hill Castle project from some time in 1988, until September 1989?
Interesting. The bulk of what was known as SIPRO didn’t arrive at Saint Hill (from the U.S.) until the Spring of 1989. There were roughly 50 of us in the core contingent. Prior to that, there had been a small U.K. crew that had been tasked with renovating Saint Hill Castle, but that crew failed to do much more than make a small scratch on the project, and actually botched pretty much everything they touched. Our primary tasks upon first arriving were to fix all of their previous screw ups. Some of them were major, such as ARC breaking the entire field of security equipment vendors in the country. I personally had to handle that one myself. The true renovation/completion of Saint Hill Castle didn’t begin in earnest, or show any forward progress until our team arrived.
The timeline of your track with the project tends to indicate that you were part of the prior renovation contingent. To my knowledge, every single one of those people were fired, and none were allowed to return when the project was re-started. Perhaps you played a smaller role in the earlier failed project, and were allowed back. Is that what happened?
For what it’s worth, I’m taking your story with a grain of salt. There are a few red flags in your narrative that don’t fit with my recall of the times. Perhaps you can clarify them for me. It also doesn’t help that you’re posting under a pseudonym. I don’t know who you are. I clicked on your handle and it just goes to a blank WordPress page.
I’m not trying to be adversarial here. It’s just that folks out here in the wild make lots of claims from behind the anonymity of a keyboard.
Thank you so much Brian for your brave words ! 🙂 🙂
Dear Ronnie
I did that all for nearly 40 years and that’s the reason why I want those books to be written !
LRH gave it as gift to Mankind and it’s free !
Brian, thanks for your take and for sharing your own experience which I understand. Yes, I also have come to value and admire most – humility, service, and love…
You’re probably right. Eeewwwwww on the injections, he can certainly pay for them and he must need a lot…meee-OW!
I would not call it crime because that is not my wavelength. I do not think in terms of crime. Maybe criminals and policeman find it appealing. The expression does not allure me. That is not my understanding. That is not my agreement. Simply because of that. I hope, this is sufficient to assist you to reach understanding.
Hilarious!
Huh?
Let’s see you do it Gern. I think you are all talk.
tunedal,
“Advance” does not necessarily mean “change” at all. It can mean “move forward” with the original, unaltered, standard tech as Ron wrote it to be.
Tim, it might be simpler to compile “What Isn’t Wrong with the Church of Scientology?”
Well, in Scientology “duplication” is the creation of an object in it”s own time and space using it’s own energy. This can cause vanishment. Some people object to having what they feel are their “possessions” vanished and would consider it a “crime” for anyone to do so.
For this reason, in many cultures it’s considered not polite to st\are or look too long at another or another’s symbiotes.
Especially, it’s not a good idea to look too long at police, Army, a King or dictator, etc.
My name is Derek Savage , in september 1988 i arrived at saint hill in the uk and signed a 3 month contract with sipro , i was paid 23 pounds per week , given accomodation and food and also training awards for doing the 3 months of work , i worked as a labourer , i was 18 years old at the time , in november 1988 i finished the 3 month contract and then went home .
At the beginning of june 1989 i went back to saint hill , i signed another contract with sipro for 6 months in exchange of more training awards accomodation , food plus 23 pounds per week , i worked as a lobourer on the castle renovations during the first 3 months or so of that contract , after that i was sent to work for estates org at saint hill and i was put to work at the incinerators burning books by L.Ron Hubbard .
This is true .
Derek Savage
Thanks, Derek. That all makes perfect sense to me now. I do know that some few UK locals were hired onto the Saint Hill Castle project and given small salaries and training awards in exchange for their work. Later, as the project intensity turned up, we hired on a lot of non-Scientologist professionals as well. As soon as those people’s phases of the project were completed, they were let go.
Long term hires such as myself, and local Scientologists who were working for training awards, stayed on longer, and many wore varied hats. At the very tail end, SIPRO Treasury had two staff still working to sort out accounts as late as the winter of 1990. I left active duty on the Saint Hill Castle project around October of 1989, and joined the rest of the crew in the U.S. for the LRH Exhibition project in February 1990.
This, only after Joe Kras wore down my resistance on several transatlantic phone calls. I guess you could say that I was in the middle of one of my first ‘decompression’ cycles. I very nearly didn’t go back to the U.S. at all. I was pretty settled in, and didn’t feel any burning desire to go home. I even had friends who were willing to help me get through the immigration process, so that I could remain there permanently.
That’s still a very interesting report about the book burnings. I don’t know where Joe Kras is today, but I’ll bet he’s looked back at that and wondered why on earth he let it happen. Good on all those folks who ‘bent to tie their shoe laces’ 🙂
Thoughtful,
I appreciate your replying to my comment, and relaying of your ideas. I really do.
I give you a lot of credit and respect, you have written things which stunned me with their brilliance, wisdom, and observational powers. And you have done admirable things.
I wrote a comment and gave an opinion. You disagree, claiming it is a mistake. That’s fine.
But then you go on to evaluate and invalidate me personally, even analyzing me and my disabilities.
It is all there in your reply.
IMHO this is not necessary. And it did made me feel bad. Why? Because it has nothing to do with me.
If you sat with me in a room for 5 minutes you would know that for a fact.
Also, to further clarify and may be CONFRONT and close a cycle, if you look in your mailbox you might find there a long mail I sent you in Sept 9 2011. I asked your permission to mail you and you gave it. I was at 1st stage of my getting to know the Indies having many questions, asking advice.
There I state many WRONG (and worse) things I observed and discovered in the CoS. Alone, without ever meeting or knowing the existence of a single Indie or even anyone else who could see what I saw.
I even ask you there about a few things which might be wrong with the Indies, the tech, even Ron.
You might still have it. I sent it to a few key Indies and to you. Most got back to me trying to answer my “difficult questions”, and dialogues started. You did not reply or ack receipt of the mail. May be it did not reach you, or you were busy, which of course is fine.
In other words: The fixed idea is not mine. Also:
I do not think “nothing is wrong” with the CoS. On the contrary.
I know too damn well all about the bad reputation of Scientology, I have cried that out for many years.
I do get in excellent comm, on the subject, with non scientologist and those who think badly about it. That is actually a very strong ability I have. Because I never bullshit anybody, and people respect that and trust you almost immediately when you comm that way. It’s there in my 2nd comment.
My 1st comment was about something else. I think you misread it. It was not about the word WRONG but about the word SCIENTOLOGY. But it is not important now. Just an opinion. And I still hold it if I may… All the rest was a clarification I needed to do. I hope my “French” is clear enough.
Just to end on a lighter note here’s a few wise/funny sayings I have come across recently:
I cannot say that I do not disagree with you. (Groucho Marx)
War doesn’t determine who’s right. War determines who’s left
Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth. – Buddha
Ben
Joe Kras had nothing to do with the book burning , i do not think he even knew about it , because i never seen him down there , it was the estates org that was doing it ..
Two of us from sipro were sent to work for estates in exchange for a man who drove a tractor from estates to work for sipro , his name was norman , he was a groundskeeper and gardener .
I did not. I just gave him material to read on suppression – a booklet printed by CoS. I have nothing else to give. In it there are details about CoS orgs and services and courses. The person wants to do some of these. Naturally. I connot offer him any alternative where we live. (Course rooms e.t.c.) They don’t exist here. That’s the source of my frustration. And I have
many similar cases.
JC, you make some interesting points. I think it finally boils down to: Which definition of the word Scientology is used? – as you write.
1. A cult which abuses human rights, betrays its parishioners while robbing their money using the wisdom of its founder and “the road to eternity” as a bait .
2. The Applicable philosophy as given by LRH, which when applied properly can better conditions, awareness and spiritual developement.
While most of us here go for def. 2 (I hope), I do agree that people at large agree with def. 1.
A good and valid question IMHO is what def. we wish to promote. Is there any hope for saving and rehabing def 2. or it is a lost battle, as (I think) Thoughtful believes, as seen in his reply.
Not an easy question.
It is like taking words such as Faschism or Nazism.
Who will ever believe that they are actually good things. No chance, subject closed!!!
Are we there with the word Scientology?
I hope and believe we are not there yet.
And may be Marty’s book will shed light on that too.
Ben
My focus is to see my fellow Scientologists survive. HE&R from an untrained Scientologist towards other Scientologists, attempting to communicate their desire to participate in a larger group activity, is not a pro-survival activity.
Look at the survival here. How is your comment in any way pro-survival? Oh, I get it .. you’re just trying the help “protect from the bad trolls” ..
I have personally known and worked with these two individuals for a long time and from various posts/responsibilities and all I can say is that I have nothing but great respect and admiration for both. Congrats to you, Dan and Russ for speaking your views and sharing them with the world!
Hat off !
I like medicine that CURES despite the uneasiness. Great choice of editors.
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