Joel Sappell was co-author of one of the most extensive newspaper series on Scientology in the nineteen eighties. He visited me a couple months ago to investigate the inside story of Scientology Inc.’s reaction to his 1980’s investigation.
While he obsesses with attempting to exact a confession for something that simply did not happen, the story does contribute an interesting perspective on the history of corporate Scientology.
Moving On Up a Little Higher 
I know this can be considered off topic and I apologize. Once again, I was late, but I am humbly asking the moderator to post the following, as it is an attempt to reduce the Dev-T that often hits the site.
Alex Castillo | December 18, 2012 at 4:57 am | Reply
Mike,
What amazes me about this place is how many wannabe experts in the history of Scn and the SO are jumping in to spew their inacurate and poorly informed opinions, sometimes trying to make themselves sound as if they have been there, when in reality they can only parrot what others (also uniformed) have said. So many times here we have said: LOOK, DON’T LISTEN. So, in my opinon, these “experts” should just STFU, get a job or a life and stop creating useless debates that are not productive at all.
Alex
Read the story. Yawned.
I’m going to fix myself a ristretto.
I think I read it on this blog – some woman’s mother refuses to talk to her since to do so would “threaten the future of mankind”. So, maybe some OSA member, amazing saviors of the world as they are, might not have backoff on the necessity of killing a dog to protect “the agonized future of every man, woman and child on this planet”. I’m just saying you don’t know what is going on in other people’s heads.
I dont know what to say but sheds light on another prespective on
past history. Bow Wow, I think the animal stories are coincidental unless
hard copy proof turns up, videos and Polaroids of being caught in the act.
Jesus, why do these guys have a crashing Mis-U on thetan? “His thetan.” Next time anybody talks to a reporter, please clear that up. It will give them at least the appearance of credibility. On a side note: Marty, if you do have a bad back (as most everyone does), check out the work of Eric Goodman and Foundation training. It is the real deal for resolving back issues.
Corporate Scientology = “It’s always worse than you think.”
Thank you Alex for the demonstration of the ARC triangle and the virtue of patience.
I read the article earlier this morning, when Tony Ortega posted it. Along with his comments.
I had a few moments to reflect on what has become – only in part – your history. The #2 man and person responsible for the investigatory and potentially harmful actions of corp scientology.
I reflected that had I NOT be “ineligible” for the GO, it could easily have been me doing those some dirty-deed capers. I wasn’t an auditor but I’m great at getting people to open up to me. To tell me stuff.
I mean — just by some sort of twist of fate — the interior designer I was interviewing for my home in LA had been the designer for Gene Ingram’s home and knew all sorts of stuff Gene’s wife had told her about Gene’s role as chief PI, IN scientology.
Though I’m not a Catholic, one of my best friends not long ago and I spoke about the Catholic concept of “the occasion of sin” (“an occasion of sin is an external set of circumstances—whether of things or persons—which either because of their special nature or because of the frailty common to humanity or peculiar to some individual, incite or entice one to sin”.)
The easiest to understand is the man/woman who walks away rather than continues to flirt with a colleague. Thus, he/she removes himself from the occasion of sin.
My heart feels heavy Marty that once again you’ve had to endure the bashing of someone intent on fixing you firmly in the role of bad guy. Whether you knew, whether you ordered, whether you simply followed orders, didn’t know etc etc — is moot.
It was the occasion of sin.
To which each of us SHOULD say — thank god I didn’t have that occasion of sin for can I honestly say — “I wouldn’t have done that”.
And yes Marty — I believe that you have worked to make up for your past actions and have an abundance of friends and good karma ahead. Just take a look at Mosey and you’ll see the reflection of love, which you have earned.
Love,
Christine
(Sorry if this is posted twice – I couldn’t tell if it went through the first time)
Re: statement in Church reply that you are “obsessed like a stalker” boy that one is the ne plus ultra of criminal mind, given the long term observation posts near your home, the months of their squirrel busters stalking you, the phone records, the airline reservations, PIs following you everywhere. Wow, they are not only “obsessed like a stalker” – Miscavige and minions are confirmed incorrigible stalkers.
This reporter obviously loved his dog. He still cries for his pet after so many years have gone by. I think he just wanted to learn if what he suspected happened was true. Who else could he possiblely ask?
???????
Communication is a n universal solvent !
When in doubt communicate.
I can understand your upset, but don’t give up with communicating ! 🙂 🙂 🙂
More you do more you’ll understand !
AND to “prove” my point about “occasion of sin” – when Marty was offered to come back the church by studying full time at the Freewinds, he took to auditing – so well, that he became the celebrity of the TOP celebrity in scientology – Tom Cruise.
Obviously Marty’s nature isn’t to investigate, stalk and upset but to communicate and care.
Christine
Joel, I hope you read this. I was a practicing Scientologist from ’78 – ’94. Your approach to reporting on Scientology is exactly why I supported the war Scientology declared on you. What you reported and what I experienced were completely unrelated. 99.9% of what I studied in Scientology was about day to day practical living. Your account would make one believe we sat around and discussed bizarre galactic empires. In the 80’s and earlier Scientology was fighting a very real war against people like you who distorted the subject so badly that I could hardly recognize it. Scientology may have gone overboard in defending itself and there is no question that DM is a sociopath who will eventually destroy everything around him, but you also are guilty of your own crimes. I have no doubt you had made up your mind about Scientology very early on and your approach to reporting was to confirm what your already thought you knew. i hope someday you’re able to get honest with yourself and be able to call yourself a real reporter.
off Topic:
The ideal Org they show in the movie is just next to one of the biggest psychiatric compound in Europe !!!!
From the the 2nd. floor on upwards you can overlook the parcs and the different psychiatric buildings !
It’s at the border of the city.
The sunday service that is shown is just a fake !
Ouch. More work for people to do once DM is out of the picture.
With all due respect, the internet has a number of reports of dead pets from people who opposed the church one way or another. Also harassments of any kind, burglaries, other crimes, even physical attacks – sometimes the latter included a hint that the attack was church related.
I know a few individuals who had the above things happening to them. And I went through it myself..
However, often the amount of OSA ( or GO ) criminality is confronted only by those who have been subjected to it. I cannot blame anyone for not confronting it, because it is so much mob-like or CIA-like and not at all church-like ( “… a world without criminality …” ).
Marty has a different opinion about this reporter’s work. According to the newspaper, Marty wrote to him : “All in all I think you all did some pretty balanced work”.
True headline : Scientology SHRINKing in Switzerland 😉
I don’t believe that its unlikely that a former GO member or private eye could have been bumping off pets. It could have easily happened without Marty’s knowledge depending on what instructions members believed themselves under. For example, if you say “Never do anything illegal, but grind the guy down”. That sends a different message then, “I don’t want to hear about any illegal activities but grind the guy down, DM is counting on you”. The message would be, get the job done, and I don’t want to know the rancid details. I hate to imagine what the pet assassin hat would look like, since it doesn’t appear to be happening anymore, it would have been someone active in the LA area up through the late 1980s.
Han, I don’t see how anyone could consider the articlew Marty posted here to be balanced. If I new nothing about Scientology and I based my opinion on what I read here, I’d have nothing to do with it. Fortunately, I studied Scientology first hand for years and I saw fantastic results, daily. I don’t see any honesty in Joel’s reporting, just a person with an agenda.
I am certainly not upset and I am actually communicating, aren’t I? Perhaps you should clear up the Scientology term Dev-T? Your response doesn’t make a lot of sense to me????:)) :)) :)).
Vicar, My Pleasure.
Dan, funny you should say that, as during my days in the SO, I came across a few people who would say “my thetan” or “his thetan” when refering to themselves otr heard other refer to others. My conclusion was always the same….They don’t know who and what they are. And no one seemed to have picked them up to clear such a fundamental misunderstand og the truth….
I don’t think you ever ordered the demise of someone’s pet, Marty.
Someone else may have, however.
Here is the declaration of Steven Fishman.
Check out items 19 through 23.
Holiday wishes to you and your beautiful wife, Marty!
The tail that wags the dog.
Read a couple of pages into the article.(and gave up) and all I could think was, “What did that dog miss on you?”
I agree with LRH on his viewpoint of media and journalists – way too far off any tech that does anyone any good. I reckon that journalist has now developed quite a probelm with flows – it went way too long in one direction and now has reversed. He actually needs what he opposes.
A psychopath who wacks Scientology enemys pets ?
Not in Scientology, just a loon chaos merchant ?
A Dead End Hobby of a sicko ?
A confession or witness or anything, otherwise urban legend fodder
Read “Sociopath Next Door” by Martha Stout
best guess
Wow Marty, good job to even give Joel so much time. That could not have been easy for you, a real “dredging of the past” and likely many things you wouldn’t mind forgetting – forever!
You have built up much positive karma no doubt, and are creating more every day!
May you and Mosey ever be well and happy!
Imagine:
Sign a Billion Year Contract and do a full hat as a Pet Assassin
How much would D.M. pay to keep you quiet ?
100’s of millions
That was in reference to the 1990 LA Times series. His current story is motivated by his frustration that Marty did come right out and say, “Yeah, I poisoned your dog.” Sappel came to IOB with a fixed idea, it seems, that he had to hear those words to experience closure over the loss of his dog. Hey, losing my dog would kill me too, so I am not unsympathetic to his loss, but it appears to me anyway that he came to visit Marty for personal not journalistic reasons. Marty could have addressed those in a Book One session.
After 40+ years involvement with the subject of Scientology, I have yet to read anything that even comes close to a “fair and balanced” story on the subject.
That includes books, articles, tv shows, you name it.
It’s been pointed out before on this blog, but I don’t see how someone can fairly report on Scientology without DOING some Scientology. You have to experience it to know it – sorry, I know some of your readers don’t believe this, but it’s true. (Talking about the subject only, NOT “Corporate Scientology”)
It’s a bit like reporting on what it’s like to run a marathon without having ever trained for or run one. Can’t be done, IMO. Observing from the outside, most of what you’re going to see is the agony – but you’ll never experience any of the ecstasy.
I don’t think Shapell is obsessing; not at all. Look at it from his viewpoint: he was being hounded by OSA and during that time his dog gets poisoned. Then to top it off he gets a phone call from a judge whose dog was found drowned in their pool. What would an sane person think? I’ll tell you what they’d think. They’d think OSA/Scn had a whole lot of something to do with it.
That dreadful incident will not go away for Shapell until he gets the truth on it. And you know what? It wouldn’t for me either.
Sorry, I misspelled Joel Sappell’s last name.
ps. While I’m posting again, let me be clear. Somebody KNOWS what happened to Sappell’s dog AND the judge’s dog. Only someone fatally naive would think it was a “coincidence”. It’s more like co-incidents! Whoever knows, if you’re reading this blog, you know darn well that something will persist ONLY when there are lies on the line. Time to come clean on the dogs.
Paul, I got your point. But let’s put some analytical mind into that. You got fantastic results from the Tech. Does anybody’s viewpoint on certain aspects of Scientology made your results less? Or is overall acceptance by broad public or certain people a condition for making these results? Has it anyhow improved anybody’s auditing or spiritual progress that Tom Cruise made Scientology more known? I say no. The good PR or acceptance etc. are just certain parts of the very existence of organized effort enabling it to survive and be, but have nothing to do with the Tech itself. This sort of A=A has always been a problem. I would like Scientology to be broadly accepted, no denying that. But together with it I have to take responsibility for the fact that there have been serious abuses, cultish behavior and also that there are OT3 stories all over the Internet. From that perspective, works of journalists might be pretty balanced even if you don’t like it. These guys have no reality about your fantastic wins unless they have theirs. On the contrary, from their view writing about something so subjective would be disbalanced. And again, you will not occasion these results by just good PR but only by auditing people. Don’t persuade them, audit them. Take the fact that the CoS has had tens of thousands of potentional PCs and instead of auditing them it focuses on squeezing money from them to build empty morgues for future delivery and is fighting psychiatrists because they will drug our kids and there will be no pcs in the future. But what about the PCs that are available now? There is somehow twisted importance. Please consider it might be with your point, too. Granting reality is much higher than insisting on political correctness. And we have to learn to grant reality to journalists, too, after all, we don’t depend on them, we depend only on genuine spiritual progress, don’t we?
Very big of you to help that man with a contact assist Marty,even though he seems oblivious to any effects or damages or violations he might have created on others.
Reporters will be reporters. Believe me, I can relate to the loss endured when a dog or cat dies – and it is worse when it is done intentionally. So, I understand the upset – and it is a sad situation when “Church of Scientology” comes to mind as a possible culprit.
But look – I was involved in OSA activities years ago. I was involved in GO activities years ago. I went up to Santa Barbara to act like a defector to get some data on Mayo (I hated it). I have seen staffers in all levels of stress and anxiety. I was at the Complex when it was raided in ’77. I knew every nook and cranny of the complex when I was on staff there. I was on staff at Bridge Publications for a few months, involved in their FP committees and working with their suppliers. I was on the tape archives project when rumors were being spread that the FBI could erase the master tapes by driving around the building with a big magnet. I have seen stupidity and insanity on staff.
In all my years as an active Scientologist, on staff and off, I have only witnessed TWO acts of physical altercations. One was when a staffer entered the OT III course room to speak to a student without going to the Course Sup first – the course sup (Harold, I think – awesome guy) wrestled with the guy – no blood. The second was when a former boss tried to beat me up for allegedly stealing a client of his. No blood.
That is IT. I saw more fights in high school in one week than I saw in 20 years as an active Scientologist.
Killing dogs? No way.
Now, Mr. David Miscavige has become what he resisted, so these days? Who knows? But even then – look at the harassment Marty got in Corpus Christie. Annoying, intrusive, crazy, obsessive, evil. They lie. They put up bogus web sites. They fabricate crap. They sue based on BS. But they are not really physical. These guys are too down tone to hurt anyone directly.
Now I have seen some crazy shit, but none of it was physical damage of any kind.
Mark
Yes, I know. It’s all rumor and hearsay. I knew a few people who knew Ron directly (one of whom is my mother) and they all loved him – even those that were in the SO. They LOVED him. To me, the litmus test is R2-45. If you can’t get the joke, you will NEVER get Ron.
Dan — I told Joel the same thing about the dog. I had no idea what Marty had said to him — he didnt tell me and I didnt ask Marty. He of course hoped I would tell him that it was a nefarious plot. I have not heard of such a thing and it offended the hell out of me when it would be brought up back then. Do I think someone COULD have done it in some misguided effort to “back him off” — of course its possible. But there was not then any institutional idea that “anything goes” — in fact, so soon after the disaster of the GO prosecutions, it was overboard on not doing anything illegal, and that WAS the standard, but immoral/unethical/unacceptable didnt matter, just as long as it was legal. Poisoning someone’s dog is a misdemeanor or felony. There is not a chance in hell that was sanctioned by anyone in the church. And that is what I told Joel.
Dan. So true. “Me and my thetan went to town today”.
I smooze in my cool car. A guy comes up and says “what is pissing you off today?”. My car answers “He is having a bad day, that’s all.”
“My thetan” is like a car saying, “My driver”.
Once a body, always a body, to borrow your earlier “copywriter” poke at DM.
🙂
In fact, it is this culture of non-violence and the refreshing lack of fist-fights and worse among Scientologists that allow Mr. David Miscavige to get away with his own physical abuse. No one believes it, because it is completely at odds with any experience people have with the church.
Yeah! I read that, and I file the rest of the post in the wastebasket because they obviously don’t know the first thing about scientology. If they got that wrong, how much of the rest have they understood?
Or like judging a cooking contest without tasting any of the dishes prepared.
Duh!
Marty,
Is it not possible that POB had assistance via other operatives that you were not aware or informed of regards some ‘projects’?
That aside, I still feel that he’s a “Manchurian”. And yeah, he’s a full-blown sociopath. However, some folks way up lines with regards to planet earth control mechanisms sponsored or at least tacitly approved of this SP to take the helm. Don’t you think?
After all of these many years I’m still chewing on this.
One thing I have utter conviction of is that there are some really f%cked up elites who want to see us, the herd, culled and controlled especially the ‘trouble-makers’, and that’s according to their own public papers within the CFR as well as the lead brainwashing organization, The Tavistock Institute.
I for one won’t go to the killing field quietly, spiritually or physically.
Thanks again Marty for so many thought inspiring insights we all might want to consider.
It goes without saying that in the end the truth will prevail!
Mark ~
You know I love you dude, but I got to say ~~you were never posted in the highly secretive Dirty Black Bag operations part of OSA INT. It is so highly compartmentalized that 95% of even OSA staff do not know what they do. The Chief of Intelligence would know, CO OSA INT would know and then upwards to “Office of COB” in their daily intelligence report.
You cannot say “no way” You were not running the Private Investigators.
I acknowledge your time track. I worked at OSA INT for 5 and 1/2 years.
I was merely Heber’s assistant in the PR area, but I knew how strong the Intelligence area was, and how much money is needed for Private investigators and Lawyers ~~ their prime expense.
Their bible is the OSA Network Orders and anything goes to crush an enemy.
Here is Joel Sappell’s Partner Bob Welkos write up of Scientology INC. “fair fame” on him and Joel.
http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/harassed-and-abused-quill.htm
True Oracle.
He seems to have had a big story’s 20 odd years ago. He returns with the shadow of his story coloring his current observations. He goes back and is frightened of possible repercussions now he is doing another “big story”.
‘Fraid not. It is a rehash of stories already out there. I read all 7 pages, man, and saw not one one original thought.
What I did see was Marty’s huge ability to grant beingness to this guy in allowing the visit and interview. Huge.
What I did see was a comparative contribution to the survival of others. Marty’s and his………
I also saw the Swiss video clip. Dan is right “ouch”. Boy our subject is taking a veritable bashing. The video did not seem vindictive. It seem to sadly tell us we are shrinking.
The huge PLUS in the video is that the church is shrinking, and we have a unique place in history, the whole of history, to be creating a forum for expansion and a new future.
Did the journalist interview Les et al about all their wins, or call Dani in Israel? Of course not. That is not his job. He needs to go the the blood and guts story not truth or actual reality of the tech and wins so many, many people are still having despite the current PR mess. Imagine how it will be once we have navigated this malaise and worked out how to interest and attract young guys to the tech.
Twill happen.
I’m trying to get across the point that this ugly small man was sent to stop any and all from ultimate understanding.
The good news, he failed.
Poisoned Dog, Do a Toxicology exam and CBC
Dog Drowned in Pool, autopsy to see if dog was dead before put in water
Basic stuff any vet can do, how many vets in L.A. ?
Fishman not posted as virtually all of his affidavit is fiction.
LRH may have had a good viewpoint on media on journalists most of the time but not all of the time. We sure all liked the media coverage on the Debbie Cook matter. Right? And we all enjoyed the media coverage on the head-cam robots at Marty’s doorstep. Right? I didn’t hear anyone criticizing the journalists who covered those stories. Yet because this journalist, Sappell, brings up a positively revolting, sordid incidents (killing family pets) he’s to be criticized and the subject of snide comments? Or worse, not believed.
Do you really think any group that would condone destroying PC folders in an attempt to hide critical info (Lisa McPherson) would object to the killing of family pets? Had the cult not interfered with Joan Woods and destroyed data, Lisa’s cause of death might have been murder. Now, considering that, does the killing of family pets, all for the greatest good of course (spit spit), really seem that far fetched?
Mike, I was around Vaughn and Stacy Young in Seattle around the time that Scientology was putting tons of pressure on them as you recall. In fact I visited once right after you and Mike Sutter had left and were trying to negotiate with them to get them to shut up.
What I do recall at that time was the harrassment that Dave Lebow was doing to the Youngs and their pet sanctuary (it was really pet adoption) that they were running in their little house (more of a cottage) on Puget Sound. Lebow had protesters out in front of the Youngs house accusing them of abusing the animals and even had reports made to authorities who came to investigate if the pets had AIDS.
Not long after that, the Youngs hooked up with Bob Minton who bought them a house on an island in Puget Sound and they set up a large sanctuary. The Youngs have reported at that time that some of their animals including a dog they loved, were kidnapped and were later found in very bad shape with teeth missing and injured limbs if I recall.
Do you think someone like Lebow and the PI’s he used would stoop to such things and then not even tell OSA what was going on?
LRH made this statement (“he and his thetan”) in some lectures, as a joke, to imply that some guys just never get it. I could find a reference if I dig into it, but fact is, I used the same phrase often as a joke. And others too.
😛
Thanks, Karen – love you too! And you are right – My OSA and GO career was volunteer only. And I am not downplaying harassment or dirty tricks. Legal harassment, disconnection, hiring PIs, following people, infiltrating groups, publishing lies, intimidation, are all heinous, damaging, distressing and stupid. And I condone none of it. It pisses me off, and Ron made a bad call when he went down this road.
My point is that what you don’t see are acts of physical violence. Never. Incredible negligence? Yes. Incredible stupidity? Yes. But not beating people up or worse. The worst thing that happened physically in the article you linked to was an RPFer throwing something on their car. Did the RPFer haul the guy into the weeds and kick the shit out of him? No. (Did he want to? Probably 😉 ). Anything is possible. If a Scientologist did kill the dogs, I truly believe he was acting on his own. No one I met would ever do that.
Mark — Of course, anything is possible and I certainly can’t attest that unknown people didnt do something that I have no way of knowing. But I know of nobody ever planning or getting authorization for or talking about or mentioning killing animals. I would not have sanctioned anything like that. Calling Animal Welfare on them for having too many cats in their house, yes. Even the Social Services being called to tell them Stacy was a crazy person, though not directly authorized by me, was “acceptable” within the mores of the time as it was not illegal. Could Dave LaBlow do something like that, I suspect he could. He is someone that makes his living trying to deceive people and make their life difficult.
Alex writes: “I’m communicating aren’t I?“
Yes, but your message seems to be that less communication will help here.
I consider Miscavige to be a terrible man who turned an improving scene into a nightmare. But he took over a church in which there were already weaknesses and flaws. I’m slowly getting to grips with what might have happened and how much can be attributed to things like the GO debacles and crazy FEBC training, and how much comes from Ron’s own personal mistakes under pressure.
For example, I see the R2-45 process in COHA (1954) as a funny joke by Ron. But it doesn’t seem as though he was in such a humorous mood fourteen years later when he ordered S.O. members to use it on people who were misusing the clearing materials (see R2-45 in Wikipedia). Or is the issue this appears in a forgery? I’d love to hear from the people still around who really know the story behind things like that. Unless the difficult issues can be addressed on a blog like this, they will be the sole provenance of the anti-Scientology books and sites. The answers to unkind questions (that are based on possibly false data and assumptions) are a way to help understand why this spiritual philosophy with such an amazing set of techniques is in this deep, deep hole.
“…his dog gets poisoned.”
I re-read the article linked and it says the vet on the case couldn’t determine the cause of the situation with the 13 year old pet, and it went on for approximately one month according to the author of the article,( the siezures etc.) while under the care of the vet.
What kind of poison works like that? Takes an dose and then requires weeks to do the deed, despite constant medical attention?
The sleuthing of the cause of death of this beloved pet and it’s suffering for weeks, IF poison was the instrument, would be well served Pat, IF you are aware of such a poison.
From there, HOW the dog ingested it would lead to a possible WHO. And that’s IF such a poison exists.
I experienced my own dog, at about the same age as this shepherd mix, go through a stroke. I gave assists following, and took him to the vet who suggested it was a stroke. I nursed him back to the best level of health I could, and carried on life with him until a few months later, he lay down and would not get up. I carried him to the vet and said goodbye to my dear friend. I understand the loss Mr. Sappell had.
Thanx for posting the “Joel Sappell” interview. Revealing charged history may seem to be counterintuitive, but is actually releasing THETA! You are on the correct track. You have sacred people around you, Monique and Mike. They have your back, cherish them.
Gary Klinger, Sea Org Member, RTC member executed some extremely dark deeds. I was called in by him to do something I refused. It was criminal.
I experienced the mind set of Gary Klinger and what he was capable of ordering.
Gary Klinger was capable of any crime for “the greatest good.”
I will in due course get more into Gary Klinger and his willingness to push the envelope in Intelligence actions legal or not.
Wonder where he is now.
?
It is a good point that these kind of issues need to be addressed on pro-tech and pro-LRH sites as well as on the anti sites.
About the Swiss video – I thought it odd the Scientology staff member didn’t simply go to the OIC (Org information center) and get the New Names and New arrival Paid Starts and show them to the man and handle it. Maybe they aren’t so good or maybe the church does not keep an OIC anymore or maybe the org keeps OIC and all they have is Square Footage and some other of DMs. The interview seems to have been done in the Church Building.
Cece
Mr. Sappell, If you are reading this far down, I read all seven pages of your article. It misses the fact that the mental technology alleviates losses and mental pain, and as a result, physical pain as well. And people such as myself have greatly benefitted from this. This is separate from the Corporate Church itself and survives because of people like Marty and others on this blog. Also a person IS a thetan, (think of it as another name for a soul), he doesn’t HAVE one. He HAS a body and a mind, too.
As I read these comments, it is obvious that we have compassion for the loss of your dog. Two ways to resolve this- the mental tech that I speak of, and knowledge of the truth about the circumstances of the death.
It has been widely discussed here that Marty and no known Scientologist did this to you, or would have done this to you, but that it is possible a hired PI (thug) could have. But unknown.
You were something of a trailblazer in the 80’s. A lot is coming out now. Marty was kind to talk to you. I have a lot of pets myself and I wish he had run out the death of your dog.
However, please accept our condolences.
Up to the point I routed out of the GO – just prior to its disbanding, I was familiar with almost every report on every “enemy” and “enemy situation” of Scientology in the United States and much of World Wide. NEVER did I see any report on the abuse of animals. NEVER did I hear or see a joke, a suggestion, a comment, a proposal, an objective, a plan, an operation, a hint, an inference, a speculation, a notion, a desire to harass or handle anyone by injuring or killing their pets or animals. NEVER did anything like this come up. I do not be believe ANY of the people I worked with closely over a lengthy period would stomach or participate in such a hideous plan. Nowhere in the hatting and training was anything so horrific advocated or suggested, and in fact someone committing such an act would have been perceived as suppressive (sociopathic). Such an act would have been cause for immediate dismissal with internal labeling as a psycho. Furthermore, If animal abuse were in a person’s folders, that person would not have been qualified in the first place for the GO. Let my voice, too, help put the idea to rest that the Guardian’s Office ran operations that included the abuse of animals. (Many GO members had beloved pets of their own).
Mr. Sappell, I am very sorry what happened to your dog, but I think it extremely unlikely any Scientologist did that – past or present. It is so antithetical to our core beliefs.
Leonore
hey my car resents that…
Thanx for posting the “Joel Sappell” interview. Revealing “charged” history may seem to be counterintuitive, but is actually releasing THETA! You are on the correct track. You have sacred people around you, Monique and Mike. They have your back, cherist them.
Karen,
thank you very much for shining the light on the darkest OSA operations. Only few people can, that makes your statement so valuable.
Scientologists can and do confront their misdeeds, evil impulses, painful experiences as well as other beings in need of help. This is called The Bridge.
But Scientologists usually have a hard time to confront the amount of criminality done by the inner circle of OSA.
Over a few years OSA cared to spend a million plus on me ( and to people that were close to me, although they had never been a problem to the church ). During that time OSA gave temporary jobs to dozens of people. Their actions were not limited by “is it legal ?”, but by “can we get caught ?”. Almost anything can be done if money isn’t a problem and if enough people are available and sufficiently trained.
This was not pleasant for me, of course. But I also felt like a secret truth had been revealed to me – what OSA ( or the darkest part of it ) was REALLY doing. Now I know. And I see the many Scientologists who are still struggling or even refusing to confront that.
See, that’s what I mean.
I really should not have to explain this, but IF Ron’s so-called R2-45 order was real, there would be dead bodies. As I said, you either get him, or you don’t. He didn’t revoke any thetans, either.
It needs to be aired out. It is amazing what people will justify in the name of the “greatest good”. Evil can never forward a good purpose.
GH,
how can you write “what you don’t see are acts of physical violence” ?
First, you have not been a member of the inner circle of OSA or GO who organized the really dark operations.
Second, there are reports on the net about violence directed against “enemies” of the church.
Third : there had been a number of violent attacks on church critics in Germany – which had to include some hint that the attack was Co$ related. This got the attention of politicians, and they compared it to the Nazis ( who organized beat ups of opponents like socialists and communists in the early 1930ies – after that all other political parties were simply forbidden ).
And in the long run, these “bright” OSA actions contributed to the bad image of the church as well as to its observation by the office of the protection of the constitution ( intelligence agency dealing with matters within Germany ).
Interesting article. Thanks for the openness and transparency to post the link to it. That’s clearly an ongoing commitment and it has power.
On the pet issue, I am reminded (if memory serves) of Stacy and Vaughn Young. At least Vaughn was in the old GO. I am not sure if Stacy was too. After they “blew” the had a cat shelter in Washington state, and I believe that some of their pets / rescue animals got killed. If so, there seems to be a possible pattern there. I am aware that in the “think” of some (read “mindset” for a more typical English word) any crime against any dynamic is justifiable as the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics — as long as the protected dynamic was CoS, Inc.
On a lighter note, I am always bemused that so many people don’t get what a thetan is. The concept is not that of a soul or something that someone “has.” It is you yourself, that which is aware of being aware. There is actually a Hindu meditation along related lines. It goes like this. “I possess clothes. I am not what I possess. I am not my clothes. I have hands. I am not what I have. I am not my hands. I have thoughts. I am not what I have. I am not my thoughts.” And so on, very poorly paraphrased, I am sure — but you get the point: you do not have a soul — you are one, and to avoid that confusion, the word and concept of thetan arose.
(Obviously this is all well known stuff to any Scientologist or former Scientologist, but maybe it will be of some use to others.)
I just don’t happen to like what that journalist wrote and his attitude to Scientology, he’s pretty awful i reckon. I didn’t say ALL journalists did I? Until proven otherwise I pretty much align most of what I see with Tech & Policy. I don’t follow it bindly though.
I also don’t see how I wrote such a generality in my words. How in the world could you know what I think? You allude I would condone the killing of pets and exposing /violating PC folders and the death of people in the hands of the Church – your way off target buddy. I don’t like you either!
Here’s a bad back remedy that always works for me. Place a thin mat on the floor and sleep on that for a few days or a few weeks.
So scientology works incredibly well and in instances brings
people into a very spiritual state (with all the goodies connected
to that). People in the media, some govt outfits, some police and
judicial clowns and AMA plus APA all come down on this
wonderful solution to mankind’s problems. You get harassed
and attacked. How would you respond? Go sit under a tree and
selfishly obtain the bliss you are talking about? Let’s get real!
The media tries to create controversy and looks at the negative
when they actually could do 50/50 (neg/pos) coverage but they
never do. Not that it is right what the GO did or OSA is doing
but I can understand it. However, they could have used
Scientology!!! Even the most rabid antagonist can be defanged
and in many instances have a win! But that takes work and
with your sleeves rolled up. No, I do not think this is a childish
way of looking at it. It is more simplistic to just hire lawyers,
PIs and undercover church members to do your dirty work,
than to give your antagonist a win. What an idea to have had
class VIIIs who could really interact with pro people outside
Scientology – really talk their language – and apply the Tech
on them to a win! PR means to much and now DM has created
a monster which will take years to undo. Well, hat off to Marty
Steve, Tom M., Les, Karen and all you 100s of people who have
taken the road out of this mess.
Regardless of how dark an operation is, if the net result was violence, it would out – especially given the diligence of the anti-Scientology crowd. Regardless of what DM and OSA have done, the anti-Scientology crowd has spread its own lies and innuendos, which do its own harm in getting Scientology reformed. Someone hiccups, and it has to be OSA’s fault. The truth is in the middle, and it behooves no one to embellish it one way or the other. DM is ridiculous in his Shermanspeake ™. But people who claim Scientologists regularly committed violence, without proof, are equally ridiculous. “Proof” is not internet reports. As I noted, only physical thing that happened to the reporting crew in the article Karen posted was the RPFer that tossed something on their car when they were being photographed. The other things were bad, but they were not physical.
The only way forward is to focus on the actual and provable.
God knows the truth about what has happened in the church is bad enough. Focus on that.
I agree, he seems convinced that there was a plot to poison his dog and that Marty knew something about it. He said that he left town to avoid a negative reaction to his story being published but apparently forgot to bring his wife and dog. Not too bright.
I would like to clarify what I reckon LRH meant about journalists and the media in general. At times the media can align with your viewpoint and is at that time an ally. But if they were truly objective and could see the truth of things they would become Scientologists very quickly upon an objective investigation of the subject.
They have their agendas and their boses. While the sun shines make hay with that profession but to think a journalist is going to go in defence of Scientology if and when his source of income decides to go negative – think again. The Data Series very much applies when dealing with that 3rd Dynamic.
Grasshopper, you mean….. you mean….. not everything posted online is true????
lets also not forget the Dave also could have his side communications with Lebow that may have said do whatever it takes to get these guys under control. And if pets were a huge item to them, of course anyone trying to do harm would go after the pets. Dave and Dave are psycho’s, so lets not forget that in the big scheme of COS land- anything goes.
I got your viewpoint. You know what you know, what you have certainty on.
And so do I. Seems I know ( have certainty ) on more of the violence stuff than you do.
If organized perfectly ( enough echelons or buffers between the church and the perpetrators – like Co$ hires lawyers that hire PIs that hire bullies ) the chances that anything comes out are virtually zero. The amassed donations can buy that “safety” for the church.
“May have gone overboard?” They killed his dog!
I know, I know, I hate to burst your bubble, but I am afraid so 😉
I am also enjoying the vote-downs I am getting on my posts. Try to say that no real Scientologist would kill a dog, and you get the blackball from certain members of the anti-crowd. However, I have no vested interest in demonizing the church or members of it. I am only interested in what is real, and what it will take to stop DM and the ‘droids from killing Scientology. What is real is all too real.
Now, I understand that there are those out there who are rooting for a demise not only of Mr. D., but also of the entire subject of Scientology. To them I say – hey, whatever turns your crank. But there are some of us who know that Scientology is valuable, that L. Ron Hubbard was an amazing man, and a genius (mad, or otherwise), and that e-meters work. We know it because we did Scientology, and found it to be true and workable – but alas, not perfect. We know Ron was cool because we listened to the man talk for hundreds of hours, and read hundreds of thousands of his words.
I find it much more valuable than, say, modern psychiatry that, despite the billions of dollars of funding, despite legal recognition and support from the government, and despite programs in all the major universities, still cannot prevent its own patients from shooting innocent people and themselves. Now THAT is quackery. So while you all are worried about a cussing dog, where there is no proof, we have psychiatric patients with guns walking the streets of America. Smoke on that.
One day, Alex, we in this scene will have the organizational resources we need to write up the data, sort through the lies from the facts, and get to the truth. That would be a normal thing for this group to do, eventually.
You are right in observing that a lot of hearsay and third-party/non-factual stuff gets passed around here. So point it out when you see it, make the indication when it occurs, and then the scene will improve.
Agreed. I slept on the floor for a year while in Asia, and after a week .. no more bad back! It may also have had something to do with the Cherry-seed pillows they use there, too.
Pat, you are so right. I didn’t work in the GO (refused!) but just because something wasn’t officially sanctioned by the church at that time doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. The pressure to attack attack attack and to shut people up is and always was a main focus of the church. Personally, I think that it became way too much of an obsession for LRH as well. “Clearing the planet” was and is secondary. It has been more like ‘everyone is an enemy who isn’t one of us and they should all be silenced”. If any of us acted toward others the way the church has acted toward others, we would never be allowed to be on lines. Bottom line is that it is a little strange that the reporter’s dog died and he was getting threats of such, and then the judge’s dog. I seriously doubt it was a private eye just because there are enough people willing ‘to do anything’ to ‘help’ the church, especially if they have ammends or strict orders to HANDLE something. People do weird stuff in the name of help.
No, I don’t believe that there is a manual on how to kill a dog, but I have personally known many acts done by GO and OSA ‘helpers’ and I don’t think that ANYONE IN OSA OR GO EVER CARED ON BIT ABOUT THE ‘ENEMIES’ THEY WERE ATTACKING..or THEIR FAMILIES OR ASSOCIATES .THE ONLY THING THAT EVER MATTERED WAS KEEPING THE CHURCH OUT OF IT…KEEPING
THE PR FRONT. LOOK HOW THAT WORKED OUT. RON WARNED ABOUT THE GROUP BECOMING MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE INDIVIDUALS IN IT. WELL, THAT HAS BEEN THE TRUTH WITH SCIENTOLOGY FROM DAY ONE. I LOVE THE TECH, BUT IT IS A SHAME THAT THE CHURCH POLICIES AND PRACTICES DON’T REFLECT IT…IN FACT, THEY ARE AN ANTITHESIS OF IT IT MANY WAYS. SO, SPREADING FALSE RUMORS TO GET PEOPLE FIRED, RUINING MARRIAGES THROUGH FALSE REPORTS AND THIRD PARTY, BRIBERY, PUBLIC EMBARRASSMENT AND RIDICULE…IS THERE A HUGE DIFFERENCE IN TONE LEVEL AMONG THESE ACTIONS?? KILLING DOGS…? THE CRIMINAL
BAND IS WHAT IT IS.
Poison can work instantly or slowly. Depends on what is used and in what quantity.
Why are so many so willing to believe that the journalist was lying? His understanding or research on Scientology was accurate according to what was in the article. The church looks fucking strange from the outside looking in on many counts. Besides, other journalist had warned him about the church’s tactics. I don’t blame the guy one bit for assuming it was the church. Also, it makes sense to me that if he did think Marty sanctioned it, or did it, then he would be anxious to know the truth now that Marty is no longer working for the church it was safer ground. And, he probably can’t understand that Marty can change. Maybe he doesn’t believe that he did, or maybe he doesn’t believe anyone can change, who knows.
People either have a need or an awareness which brings them in the church. They read a book and agree or cognite, or they don’t. An outsider who has no personal reason for involvement is going to continue to look at from all sides, which is what you have to do to report on something. I got in and got started, but I did it despite hearing all sorts of weird things. I wasn’t there to investigate, I used my knowingness. The guy spent a number of years looking at the church so he knows what the church is capable of regarding its enemies, and what it says it can do for people who get audited. How could he possibly have a good view of it if he is being harassed for just writing about what he hears and sees. I was connected up at the time of the LA times article and I don’t remember it being too off the mark. If you audit and get audting then who cares what anyone says…just get on with the show. Attacking all the time is just the overt/motivator sequences in action.
Okay, Lenore, I understand what you are saying. However, you are not considering the many people who may just be volunteering to work for OSA to help, for ammends, etc and if one of them did do something evil that was not sanctioned then do you think they would tell anyone??
Jewel,
I am not talking about OSA. I had no involvement with OSA which was/is totally under David Miscavige. The GO was autonomous from the SO until Miscavige and crew bullied Mary Sue into a corner, lied to her, got her to tell the GO to acquiesce, and took over. When that happened, you might say I (gradually) saw (sensed) the handwriting on the wall and decided to take care of pending personal matters and routed out. Though there had been some OFF POLICY and wrong acts done by a small cadre of people over a span of years, things were being cleaned up internally already. Nothing I saw or knew hinted at animal abuse or violence. I personally declined to do one project that I felt was unethical and immoral and off-policy, and I said so. I was never bullied or chastised for my stand. That boss was not there long.
I did not, and do not, have a problem with exposing government documents that reveal unethical actions by the government against its own people. The government is supposed to be our servants, and I believe it should always be transparent.
I can’t imagine that the GO staff with whom I was friends who later became OSA would have been involved with animal cruelty – ever. They just weren’t that kind of people. They wouldn’t have directed volunteers in that direction either. Those who stayed long term probably just got beaten down like so many, with no support or prospects outside, and began to go with the Miscavige plan. Most long term GO staff I knew were really dedicated Scientologists – many intelligent and highly trained OTs who still had a foot in the “real world” as one had to have in order to observe and handle what was there. It does not compute to me at all that these people would be involved in heinous acts. My suspicion is that many ex GO are secretly cheering for the Indies – at least for the removal of the David Miscavige and a clean up of corp. Scientology. The old GO have been very dead-agented, though, and overt expression of this sentiment would just give Miscavige a reason to scapegoat and marginalize them more.