I just received another volley from an irate, prominent self-anointed ‘with Ron’ type of ‘Independent Scientologist’. It was actually an attempt to control through command, assigning me a Treason condition with instructions – after lengthy evaluations – to first apply the Confusion formula.
I only raise the matter here because it is live evidence of two of the most insidious elements of Scientology that in my estimation are at the root of its demise. It is a great learning opportunity.
The first I will address here, blame. The propensity to find and assign blame is woven into the woof and warp of Scientology, making it perhaps one of the most difficult character deficiencies to remedy in a veteran member.
The rather lengthy screed I received pronounced me guilty of the current horrid state of Scientology on the planet today. One central allegation was that I allegedly totally mishandled the corporate Scientology attacks upon me and my family, by …’ Your response to the attack of Miscavige is quite predictably stimulus and response…rather than tangling with the cur dogs nipping at the wheels of the fire engine, you have become one of them.’ .’
Not more than a month ago two other prominent ‘Independent Scientologists’ as much as accused me of being a suppressive person for failing to automatically and continuously attack David Miscavige and blame him for virtually every shortcoming of Scientology – really on a stimulus-response basis.
The common denominator of these self-professed ‘with Ron’ Indies on both sides of the GPM (goals problem mass – the resultant mass from the collision of opposite intentions or flows colliding) is the seemingly stimulus-response tendency to blame. In all of their authoritative, judgmental communications the overriding theme is to assign responsibility for whatever it is they are suffering upon another. Ironically, anyone who witnessed much of Miscavige in action knows that his stimulus-response habit of blaming is perhaps his most destructive and prevelant tendancy.
Here is a central dichotomy with Scientology. The technology, in pure, sane application can deliver a person to the state where he or she truly understands that he or she is responsible for his or her own condition. In fact, a person only reaches the pinnacle of the state of Clear, by recognizing this fully and thus losing all inclination to engage in blame. Yet, I ask you to examine the matter for yourself and see whether there are not other conditionings added to the mix along the route that make that realization in practice short-lived.
I was also accused of ‘You are not getting people to do, you are getting people to question and think about.’
Good point. Here, I’ll ask people to do something.
Get yourself a copy of the Tao Te Ching, preferably ‘a new English version’ by Stephen Mitchell.
Read it more than once at your leisure, and particularly when you sense the onset of anxiety.
Learn to let go. I assure you that if you work on it it will move you on up a little higher in disposition and character.
Since apparently the ‘with Ron’ guys won’t listen to Ron on the matter of blame, maybe they’ll listen to Lao Tzu:
Failure is an opportunity.
If you blame someone else,
There is no end to the blame.
Moving On Up a Little Higher 
Sounds like you’ve got a damn good head on yer shoulders. I’m glad to see and know that. I don’t like wasting my time with those who are Blind. Thanks for all your work and your sharing and questioning . It is much appreciated.
Even the Greatest Show on Earth had a peanut gallery.
And its so funny to hear the criticism of those who DO nothing, other than criticize, complain that someone else “hasn’t done x,y,z.” I speak from personal experience too — the yappers who for years spoke with great authority and righteous pronouncements “Rinder and Rathbun should go to the authorities and tell them everything, but they are afraid to because of their personal liability. If they would just do that, everything would be fine.” This while doing everything possible to get the FBI to act. And at the other end of the specturm “Rinder and Rathbun are SPs because they talked to the media instead of handling it internally.” There is no end to the comments by spectators, most of whom are incapable of creating any effect themselves other than to try to get on others lines to nag, harp and whine.
The ultimate irony of this is, as usual, Whinerperson doesnt even have their facts straight. During the entire time of “Operation Squirrelbluster” you continued to audit people. Ultimately, your solution, at considerable personal cost to you, was to walk away from your home and get into an environment where you could continue to audit in peace. So much for the yapping cur dogs….
Whinerperson should take a break from their computer, orient themselves in the real world and begin if possible, some self reflection of just what they have accomplished.
Most former members seem to keep some part of the auditing tech but lose the ethics when they leave the cult. I think that’s healthier for them, but it sort of denies the reality that the ethics is source material. This guy apparently wants to keep everything going – auditing and ethics. I’m surprised he made the jump from the cult at all, but maybe that wasn’t under his control.
Absolutely true. We are responsible for our own condition. This has been my stable datum in life – when I was in the church and when I left the church.
It makes life so much easier to NOT blame others, but rather to take a good honest look at yourself and find out what YOU did or didn’t do. Taking responsibility for one’s condition doesn’t mean you start blaming yourself. It is not an act of self-invalidation. It is a restoration of one’s integrity and one’s ability to perceive who and what one is.
It is the path to pan determinism.
I thought it was, ‘What you resist, you become.” Please don’t resist Miscavage. Please continue to audit.
Thanks,
Maureen
Great post! I’m with you! mdl
Never before have I read such a continuing series of enlightening and “high vibes” articles about the shortcomings of the church and the whole scientology system. That’s something I can only find on your blog, Marty. Thanks a lot !
I admit it’s easy for me to agree, because I have come to a number of similar conclusions on my own. However, I’m not the one who can put these into inspiring words.
I still scratch my head trying to grasp why someone might find your articles un-scientological. Scientology’s organized actionism worked in the 1960ies and early 1970ies. Some time after that the horizon began to get clouded by the darkness of failed products, abuses, rip-offs and GO/OSA misdeeds.
Today the general reputation of Scientology is unfavorable, to say the least – except maybe in 2nd or 3rd world countries with less educated people who welcome anybody from the West promising some kind of development, bringing money, creating jobs or getting “favorable” with officials and opinion leaders.
Thus I don’t believe that the old style actionism laid out in some policy letters is fully applicable today. Part of a current Scientologist’s hat would be to really live the high-toned elements of the philosophy, from granting beingness to pan-determinism, from considering beings more valuable that buildings and war chests, to ARK and being educated beyond the borders of policies (like LRH was). I am convinced that such promotional actions cannot fail to have an effect, and that they are “in tune” with our current society.
I wonder what Ron would publish if he would evaluate the current situation. I’m sure he had a lot to say, and it wouldn’t just be “read the policy letters”.
Wow Marty, just one big picture comment about the “with Ron” and other critical indies. Just what have they been “doing” to be cause of the effects that they are pining for? You have published two explosive and excellent books that detail and expose Pope Leo of Int. and the currently degraded cult. You manage this whistle blowing blog. Have your detractors published ANYTHING? Do they have a blog that comes close to what this blog does? I recommend first that your detractors read your books. Then I recommend that they ask themselves what THEY can do proactively to even begin to match what you are doing. When they can demonstrate efforts that exceed yours, only then do they have a right to bitch about you!
Well Marty, you have to expect this. When it comes to Being There and Communicating, you are guilty in spades.
Marty, good response to off base critics. Blame is pandemic in the corporate church. The misguided habit of always looking for a suppressive person the second something bad happens to you is a good example. Marty you are now to blame for not blaming the king of blamers COB who blames all you guys for not blaming all the incompetent management who don’t blame the incompetent staff who don’t blame the damn ignorant off policy public who need to be blamed. See it all makes sense. 🙂
Whinerperson — perfect. I’ve been told, if I am correctly perceiving who whinerperson is, that he was a whinerperson at Gold the whole time a friend of mine knew him. Seems the spots haven’t changed.
As for the other two attackers – well, again if I am perceiving who they are it’s not surprising to me. Neither are known outside of this relatively small group of people who have left corporate scientology. And neither could get 2″ of media space as they were not “famous” scientologist who left.
Mostly I feel badly for these three. Rigidly fixed in their own perception of scientology formed at a time when they were young and found a solution to their own personal suffering.
They remind me of a term used in buddhist circles and others
“Spiritual bypassing” — meaning rather than genuinely confronting and working with their THIS LIFE TIME issues which would include traumatic incidents of war, divorce, abandonment, etc., they bypass this and jump into the spirituality of feeling good, past life answers — whatever.
It’s not going to end well for them because according to Chapter Fifty of the Tao te Ching (translation by Man-Ho Kwok) –
“Living well is like wearing
a kind of armor that nothing can penetrate.
Living badly is like being attacked!
A practised sage is invulnerable to attacks
that punch like a buffalo’s horn,
that claw like a leaping tiger –
or that stab like a knife in the back.
And why is this?
Because he is impeccable”
You Marty, Mike and Mosey are to me … all impeccable.
Love,
Christine
“It’s all good!” It’s just people opining away and thank goodness for that. We weren’t allowed much of that before. “Turning the other cheek”, I think, may have meant, “to turn attention away from”.
I never liked to criticize, I didn’t ever much, the main thing that I have had to deal with is that I can get critical of critical people, and that puts me in that same “energy field” when I am being that way.
It’s a good trick to be able to give even blamey people there space and find things to like about them nonetheless. It’s true what we push against is what gets on us. Letting go might also include letting go of pushing against people who are having a rough time and blaming all around them.
I am stepping in here. Ever since I got into Scientology “blame” was part of the game. It sure grants a lot of power to the one being blamed! I would say the world is in the condition it is in today because of those doing the blaming and not taking responsibility for what they could have done!
My observation of quite a few Scientologists over the last few years is that an awful lot of them appear to have massive quantities of BPC, presumably due to all the out tech on their cases (which includes massive amounts of sec checking). Communications such as this one you received seem to me to be an affort to “push” the BPC off on to someone else, or as you said “to assign responsibility for whatever it is they are suffering upon another”.
Fascinating the way this blame game works. If you complain to a RCS staff member about any injustice, you are likely to be told that you “pulled it in”, in spite of this being on Ron’s list of famous justifiers. One young man who posts about his disastrous SO experience actually thinks that this is a Scientology “belief”, that anything bad that happens to you is “your fault”.
It’s all about as far from anything LRH taught us as you can get.
from the peanut gallery
{Here is a central dichotomy with Scientology. The technology, in pure, sane application can deliver a person to the state where he or she truly understands that he or she is responsible for his or her own condition. In fact, a person only reaches the pinnacle of the state of Clear, by recognizing this fully and thus losing all inclination to engage in blame.}
Here is a basic principal in life you and you alone are responsible for your actions, i never thought i would agree with LRH thanks marty that was the first time i understood him and agree with him!
Marty, I have had a rough couple of months recently, with, inter alia, a couple of rather impolite disconnections because my declare is slowly coming to the attention of those still in. And yes, they were somewhat “school ma’am-ish”, accusatory, judgmental letters of disconnection. As you say, a trait of some scientologists.
“Letting go” is eventually the remedy that I came to. It works. I think of life as a long game of Monopoly. Monopoly is a board game that mimics life in a way. At the end of it – no matter if you are “bankrupt” you can still get up from the game and forget about it minutes later. In real life, even the most terrible events in history lose their importance and become, eventually, of academic interest only, the further back they go, save for one thing – the lessons learned. Adversity is a tough teacher, but that is really all it is in the grand, infinite scheme of things. (“Failure is an opportunity”- your quote above.)
LRH said the best way to defeat the SPs was to flourish and prosper. (TWTH no 21). Marty, as far as I am concerned the only thing you need to “do” is flourish and prosper. As for the rest – I would not presume to tell you what to do, so I understand and agree with the sentiments you express in this post.
I wish there was peace among the Independents, but if being at odds with one another is part of a journey, then so be it. This failure (of unity) is an opportunity. We will all work it out somehow.
OMG! I am not sure where all this fighting is going but it is sure making someone very happy, he is doing cartwheels in his office and high fives.
Marty and Mike are doing something for god sake over the last MANY years; the peanut gallery needs to shut the fxxxx up! Or get out there and truly do something YOURSELF, I haven’t seen anyone else put themselves out there like these two. If you don’t like what is being posted then start your own blog; don’t read it -who cares. Those who have been on the front lines in the past have our own things we could have done and did nothing, including myself; it doesn’t make me believe less or had tremendous gains from Scn. I am so very proud of both Marty and Mike standing up now; the past is over we are all now in PRESENT TIME.
So shut the Fxxx Up peanut gallery or DO SOMETHING of comparable magnitude. 🙂
Very interesting topic which show me the apex, the tip point of your very existence as a free speaker versus the RCS. Tip point because it shows that the engram is still there no matter if one is out of the RCS or not.
Basically it appears to me as a 3rd Dynamic matter. Willingly or not we are in the presence of a nice GPM : RCS versus Independents which falls down to Independents versus other Independents.
I observed decent persons not dramatising the 3rd dynamic inside the Church and also in the Independents. I observed reversely peoples dramatizing heavily the 3rd dynamic as well in the freezone/independents and inside the church.
Considering the GPM tech (as you mentioned it) or the anatomy of the Bank itself including R6 or any upper level nature of the Bank, considering also the Dn principle that if it solidifies it should be an earlier-similar, a question is raising in my mind since quite some time now.
All the manifestations or behaviors you mention in this article (and others) are without any doubt the manifestations of charge. A being can’t see and be in pt when charge overwhelm him so much. In the freezone most are seeking help to relieve charge accumulated during their journey in the Church. Seems this 3rd dynamic charge is impossible to fully as-is. The basic is not the 1980-82 date as it is too early on the chain. It is not the 1965-75 period. For me the basic is well far away down the track.
What if Scientology or an earlier similar attempt to free beings had failed ? All this looks like the manifestations of numerous key-ins of former failed attempts to salvage beings.
Marty,
So you’ve been assigned lower conditions? I think church lady sums it up for me….
Damned if you do..Damned if you don’t. Why waste your time, so far I have been nothing but helped and I did not have to ask for it. Thanks Bill Dupree
Tom Gallagher
Criticism and judgmentalism are so ingrained in the Co$ culture, that it takes years to get rid of it. It is years of “you pulled it in. You are not responsible, etc.” Of course the accuser never think that you could reverse the argument in a heart bit. When you do it with them the tone level drops immediately.
Marty, you are being totally right in asking them to examine themselves. You could do even better by pointing out that every accusation they level at you applies symmetrically to them.
Lets see how they react to that. Maybe they will understand the absurdity of that way of thinking. Then they are on the way to recovery.
From Dianetic Auditor’s Bulletin Feb. 1952:
“When one individual assigns cause to another entity, he delivers power to that entity. This assignment may be called blame, the arbitrary election of cause. Blaming something else makes that something else cause; and as that cause takes on power, the individual in the same act loses control and becomes effect. Assigning an enemy as cause, then, is a most efficacious method of making him powerful and self weak.
When one ceases to handle a theta facsimile, it begins to handle him. When one settles down to using one’s own memory and assuming responsibility for it, its ability to harm disappears. Processing is slanted toward reconditioning the ability of the individual himself to handle his own memory package.
Perhaps the most obvious symptom of the preclear who is low on the tone scale is failure to take responsibility. Not only is he anxious to avoid responsibility, but he assigns cause to various things by blaming others as well as his environment. Efforts towards social approval may lead him to place blame for his failings on others…” LRH
The truth is that David Miscavige is NOT to blame for the current state of scientology. David Miscavige is cause over the game of manipulating the church of scientology into a money-motivated, MEST oriented, out-tech, obedient cult.
The current state of the subject of scientology and its acceptance or lack of acceptance by the various publics on this planet is 100% in the hands of those who choose to cause an effect regarding the subject. Tony Ortega is influencing a few people to ridicule the subject. David Miscavige is causing some to obey the subject and give him all their money.
Many of us are using the subject with good results and a pure heart, and thereby generating good-will in our own small way.
Marty, from my observation, is using the subject and generating good-will thereby. He is also looking at the big picture philosophically and stating his opinion on how the subject might better fit into various spheres of other philosophical constructs. Personally, I find the dialogue fascinating.
What amazes me the most, both in and out of the Co$ is how many people are willing to blame and how few are willing to train. How many people are willing to assign “CAUSE” to someone other than themselves.
Maintain friendly relations with the environment and the public.
Always deliver what you promise.
Les
The most-missing is an understanding of what Scientology is. Or phrase it that the major outpoint is a lack of understanding of what Scientology is. That’s evident in the population at large, and you’ve been effective in bringing about a better understanding of that by differentiating between the Co$ and Scn itself, the philosophy and technology. And that’s very important. But there is also substantial misunderstanding amongst even veteran Scns of what Scn is. Evidence this topic, an apparent and probably temporary flap between veteran individuals who seem to have different interpretations of what Scn is or isn’t or is supposed to be or isn’t or does or doesn’r, rar, rar, rar.
Scientology is a deep subject. It is the culmination of thousands upon thousands of years of very deep thought, and is, in my view, very simply: a definition of a thetan (being), a being’s basic characteristics and functions, and a definition of a technology to enable a being to live better along all Dynamics. It’s really pretty simple that each of us assume responsibility for our own lives and actions, and that includes assuming responsibility for the proper and good use of the data and tech of Scn.
Is there a better way to say that? Sure. I’ll come up with a better way tomorrow, probably. And so will you. And eventually, Scn just goes “Poof!” because you look at it for exactly what it is. You see that the tech is in fact yours, and when you audit someone it’s up to you to keep the communication open and let him solve his own problems with the bit of help you give him by directing his attention. You do get to a point where you master the tech and can use it freely. And you know he will too.
I am not surprised some people from the two end of a dichotomy will engage in attacks against you and what you are expressing on this blog. The typical ‘ad hominem’ attacks. For what is worth, I am reading your blog since its inception and, while not always agreeing, I REALLY appreciate your honesty and objectivity. Many like me have ‘decompressed’ long enough and found the true Scientology to be free of such GPMs and found blame part and parcel of a long gone past. I ve been ‘in’ for a good 35 years and some in the SO and I really want to thank you and Mr Rinder for what you have done and what you represent for many still struggling in and out of the Corporate Church. Lao Tzu has also been fundamental to me in understanding a ‘way’ of life to greater freedom, free of dichotomies, blame, denialism and such amenities…
Thanks Marty, keep doing what you do exactly as you want it. .. your condition is ‘ Power’ ! ohhh .. let’s say Kha Khan :-))
From Italy with a touch of italian spicyspaghetti!
( sorry if my english sucks)
It amazes me Marty, that you post this so soon after I came to the conclusion that most of my unwanted conditions come from trying to make others wrong. LOLOL!!!
What’s ironic is that such attitudes are not actually part of Scientology – one needs only see where Ron put blame, shame and regret on the Emotional Tone Scale and/or read “What is Greatness” to see that – but are part of the synthetic valance of the groupthink brand of “Scientologist”. If such types only realized what Marty and Mike have actually been through and what they’ve done regardless, they’d get a better idea of what having brass balls was really all about.
I think Marty IS to blame. We can blame him for keeping this blamed website running and getting hundreds of thousands visitors,and especially blame him for all that crappy press that DM has been getting. But seriously folks, I hate it when I come to Marty’s blog and see a philosphical discussion about “letting go”. Screw letting go. I get my popcorn and peanuts and I come to this blog and I want to see some serious, for real, ass kicking. And perhaps ball kicking as well. And I am not referring to soccer. I like seeing DM getting kicked around best, but I love it when Stutter and Bow get booted around too. And what about Kathy Poo? Why is she not getting her ass handed to her? In future I am going to write to Marty and assign him treason whenever I feel I am not seeing him getting in there and kicking serious ass. If he feels like taking some down time and doing a little personal philosophizing he needs to do it in such a way that it does not interupt my daily shot in the arm. For heavens sake, I have to go to Ortega’s blog now to see any good smack and slap. Really Marty, if you want to kick back and philosophise a bit, get your own darned blog. And don’t be judging me either- I did my bit back in 79. Or was it ’60? Never mind. Let’s get the show on the road people – we can all help out by pressuring Marty to get it going and criticizing him thoroughly whenever he strays from the riighteous ball busting path. Marty should move to Texas and Man Up!
Thanks for that Carol; ‘apparent’ power of course.
Holy moly! These people need to chill out, and take a long hard look at themselves and all things Scientology.
One of the most pitiful and ridiculous thing to observe is Scientologists acting like religious zealots, drowning in their own and the Cult’s GPM, while the subject provides all the tools we need to actually vanish this construct from our heads forever.
Knock, knock, is anybody there?
The Tao and Zen Buddhism, while they cannot describe the anatomy of the GPM, nor take it apart like LRH did, have very humbly observed the phenomena and its boundaries for thousands of years before Dianetics or Scientology was born.
The Tao is a beautiful guiding manual on how to keep yourself away from this collective insanity and it surely points the way when you are drowning in your own and others crap.
Scientologists with their arrogance and delusional attitude should pay attention what is being said on this blog, as one does not attain superior knowledge because LRH said so; stupidity begins to end the day you recognize that you have to look and know by your lonesome self, and that no one can give you knowledge or free you. No one.
It is time to wake up.
Well said. 🙂
I no longer do, but I did for some time hope that because you were Miscaviges “right hand man”, or “lieutenant” that your whistle-blowing and inside knowledge would lead to his removal and possibly a reform of the Church. That’s a lot to put on you in hindsight.
I haven’t read the “chit”, but I think I can see both sides. I’m not sure why you brought it up. It seems like it will just create more of what you are talking about. It’s turning your blog regulars against the bad “fundy indys”. You should either skip it or give specifics. I would say skip it.
It seems the most productive thing for people to do would be to get busy and start a new activity instead of trying to get you to change what you are doing.
I like the discussions here and your thoughts are interesting and make me look at things, but also at some point I realized hey, maybe Marty and Mike aren’t going to “fix” everything and why am I even expecting them too unless I’m going to jump in there equally and get my hands dirty. That helped me let go of trying to enforce a viewpoint.
I wasn’t in the SO, but on Class V staff and training at Flag and in LA I worked with and met them and I developed a respect for their qualities. I thought the higher up you went on the Org Board , the more bad-ass they got. I assume others had this idea- that Mike, Marty, Steve, et al had the juice to handle “the problem”.
I think there are some bad concepts instilled by RTC and David Miscavige in Scientology such as – RTC is handling it, don’t think about it or take any responsibility yourself. Just support “Command Intention” and donate and watch the hypnotic videos. So this may be why I was expecting you guys to have some sort of plan or clear goals or something when I didn’t have those things myself. I think it’s time for Independent Scientologists to figure out their admin scale and just get busy.
Yes, I’ve said it before- big time deja vu from this situation.
You are a wise man Marty. Your daily revelations astound me. More power to you, and thank you.
“It is better to do one’s own duty, however defective it may be than to follow the duty of another…however well one may perform it. He who does his duty as his own nature reveals it never sins.” Lao Tzu
Following the commands of an insane person is truly the greatest sin of all.
Thanks for this, I think it is clarifying in ways you might not realize…
I will say this: what a waste it would be of your energy, Marty, if you spent the bulk of your time on this blog fixating on Miscavige, criticising him and constantly taking inventory of his faults and offenses! Your past posts about that remain available for anyone to read. How many times do you need to say it?
Walking away and leaving something behind means it should grow ever smaller in your view. Miscavige’s ultimate fate — and probably his worst fear — is to become irrelevant. The irony is, by expanding the focus of your blog the way you have, you make that manifest. You are illuminating the path that leads out of the shadow of the insanity and abuse.
In the grand scheme of things, DM just doesn’t matter very much. Making him into a totem of evil or the ultimate barrier to justice or balance is assigning him power he would not otherwise be able to claim.
What matters is good people who are still in a bad place; and that individuals still under that shadow are shown that the way the way to leave it behind is to simply … leave it behind. That’s my take, FWIW…
— CV
Hi Marty, So glad you clearly see it for what it is. Mike Rinder’s summary is spot-on above too (as usual). This subject (along with disconnection) was a key reason I stepped far away. Blame/fault finding, bad control, labeling. That’s so far from freedom and happiness to me.
God, I am so glad Advanced Procedure & Axioms was one of the first books I have read in Scientology.
Marty, dammed if you do, dammed if you don’t. And if LRH was here today I am confident he would have his Motor Home parked in your back yard. I think “Ron” would prefer to be around people who actually have duplicated his works and intentions, AND DELIVER. Those selecting you to bitch about are trying to elevate themselves in their own eyes. They cannot match your products. Just more noise. Ask them if they would like some cheese with that whine.
Blame-loving spectators. It would be laughable if it wasn’t so pathetic. Great advice on “letting go.”
“Yet, I ask you to examine the matter for yourself and see whether there are not other conditionings added to the mix along the route that make that realization in practice short-lived.”
Okay, I’ll bite.
HCOB 10 AUGUST 1973 – PTS Handling: “There are two stable data which anyone has to have, understand and KNOW ARE TRUE in order to obtain results in handling the person connected to suppressives. These data are: 1. That all illness in greater or lesser degree and ALL foul-ups stem DIRECTLY AND ONLY from a PTS condition. 2. That getting rid of the condition requires three basic actions: (A) Discover; (B) Handle or disconnect.”
HCOB 12 March 1968 – Mistakes, Anatomy of: “In the presence of suppression, one makes mistakes. People making mistakes or doing stupid things IS EVIDENCE that an SP exists in that vicinity.”
Note: If you can’t find an SP in the vicinity, then it must be a pretended PTS condition, the condition is brought about by false purposes – EVIL INTENTIONS.
HCO PL 16 May 1965 Issue II – Indicators of Orgs: “AT THE ROOT OF EVERY BAD CONDITION WILL BE FOUND A SUPPRESSIVE PERSON.” (note: the caps are in the original issue, they are not mine)
HCO PL 16 May 1965 Issue II – Indicators of Orgs: “If it (the org) isn’t rising toward optimum today, it is locally being HELD DOWN. The viewpoint of Ethics is there is no adequate reason why an org is stumbling except Ethics reasons. Let others take care of any other lacks. Ethics never gets reasonable about lack of expansion. If Ethics shoves hard enough others will get a high enough necessity level to act. So when an org is low: Find out where its statistics are down and who is a PTS or SP and Act.”
Comment:
Every bit of this assumes that there is this evil entity “out there” that deliberately and maliciously and knowingly seeks to destroy anything good. This evil entity (and it is an INDIVIDUAL) is to BLAME for ALL non-optimum conditions. The solution: HANDLE or DISCONNECT.
These are the key teachings that fuel the blame game. Something gone wrong? Foul-up? Mistakes? Illness? Disaffection? Criticism? Non-optimum? Downstats? Then a PTS, pretended PTS or SP is responsible. SP? Stop committing overt acts and make up the damage.
Marty: Had you been successful in completely suppressing all non-optimum conditions under your purview as Inspector General Ethics, then there would have been NO non-optimum situations and under your supervision a guaranteed OPTIMUM STATE would reign supreme. And you would be hailed as a HERO and and an OT and ka kahn and so on.
But you were not successful. And because you could not be seen to be suppressive, then you had to be a pretended PTS and if you did not respond to the “handling” for that, then you had to be suppressive. And suppressive persons are the enemy. And you are now the evil entity “out there” that is to blame for all non-optimum conditions any Scientology endeavor encounters. And so you must be in a lower condition, needful of discipline. An enemy with crimes and evil intent. You must be brought to your knees and be forced to recant and come to your senses.
I won’t win any friends in the C of S or the Independent field by saying this, but I am going to say it anyway:
THIS IS BULLSHIT.
And it has only one possible outcome — a spreading disconnection in a domino effect that is so destructive that it is INSANE. Nothing can be grown and sustained in the face of such a set of stable data. Each time it is applied (due to mistakes, etc.) there has to be another SP found, another enemy detected, and the result is inevitably there will be one or more less willing participants. This process is escalating in the Church and will no doubt continue outside of it until the false data is stripped out.
So strip away. You don’t owe me or anyone else anything anywhere. But I will count it as a great boon if you continue to exercise integrity and seek truths that will serve to end this crazy chain of blame.
😀
Maybe before the blame is the attempt to control and it failed. If one would just realize each of us sets his/her own goals and purposes. It is nobody’s business to force their own goals and purposes on somebody else.
While one can offer a goal and purpose, but one should never impose it on another. It is called Tolerance and it is a virtue.
Tolerance is utterly missing in a totalitarian culture like the COS and something that has to be learned again when leaving the COS.
We’re speaking of people who sully the name or dare to question Marty? A second thought here is how is it that the people who left the cos come out here and still want to brand a large group of people who are as good as Mike and Marty are , and even yourselves? ie FZ’ers, for instance? Those are the people who come in all shapes and sizes just like everyone reading here. I recall that there was hard core “squirrel” name calling and shunning/disconnection being done with FZers and then I realized it was most likely due to the intense war waged against those FZ “sp’s” back in time from within the cos circle. But that is too funny if you look at it without blinders, now that you are all out here too. FZers are like Indies. Some are sticklers to the LRH tech, some squirrel even if unintentionally. If you were trained under Misc. chances are you are a “squirrel” too, regardless of your training certs, considering that Misc. altered even the F/N tech. The only way anyone could have avoided that is if they took the time to get the earlier materials and trained with another who was certed prior to the Misc reign.
Is it any wonder Marty, that you have some people at your back? How could you escape something that even you engaged in and may still even engage in for all I know. No offense intended. I like speaking what’s on my mind, that’s all. It’s the only way I can hope to get any real honest answers.
What would cause Indies to want to continue engaging in the same activities that purportedly led them out and away from the squirrel cos management? I always wondered about that. I’m simply curious. Long ago I decided that each will do what they do regardless so I don’t ask in an attempt to bother anyone, but out of pure curiosity about this issue.
“I’m surprised he made the jump from the cult at all, but maybe that wasn’t under his control.”
He did not make that jump! He is hallucinating or delusional at best. His actions betray his words. Know them by their actions regardless of what they choose to say or call themselves.
“I like the discussions here and your thoughts are interesting and make me look at things, but also at some point I realized hey, maybe Marty and Mike aren’t going to “fix” everything and why am I even expecting them too unless I’m going to jump in there equally and get my hands dirty. ”
You summarized it well, Chris. I like you honesty. Yes, Mike, Marty, Steve, et al are not there to handle our life and get rid of “the problem”. While being able to fight back, we need also to be able to just Let Go.
Thanks Marty
Even a crying baby is able to create an effect on mommy and daddy. But eventually that can get tiresome for everyone involved. Growing up helps.
Yes chrismann9, déjà vu ! the squirrel (the real one with fur) running in the cage. Looks like a missing piece which is never audited out.
Chris,
” I think it’s time for Independent Scientologists to figure out their admin scale and just get busy.”
I think you are on to something! Good work.
Isn’t it irony that DM had us (Gold/Int) M9 the chapter of responsibility in Advanced Procedure And Axioms every day for weeks on end – the very chapter which outlines the anatomy of blame, and the end result was that the crew and execs took “responsibility” by blaming more. No wonder, they couldn’t assimilate any information that was contrary to their first-hand, long-term Pavlovian observation (which included mental stress and/or pain) of how DM operated so the chapter on responsibility, despite M9 and after M9 turned into a chapter of blame in application. It only went worse from there.
If there is one word which is synonymous to the Sea Org (today) in practical application it is BLAME.
Ding, ding…
WTF, Marty!?!?!?
I would say this unnamed so-called “Independent Scientologist” has a big fat M/U on “Independent” and maybe “Scientologist”, too. There are no Indie MAA’s. The Indie Scientologists as a group have granted *no one* any such authority or altitude.
This person maybe ought to look to their *own* Conditions.
Michael A. Hobson
Independent Scientologist
Sorry, but there are 4 flows. 1) me to others 2) others to me 3) others to others 4) me to me.
Blame is stressing flow 2. Except blame on myself that wold be flow 4. It is all me is also flow 4.
Anyway this or that is imbalance of flows. Maybe all 4 flows combined should be all me. I caused every flow. But I cannot agree with that or at least I did not observe it myself to be that way.
To me, Scientology started working again when I simply applied a simple formula: Make it yours.
When done, the entire words population can shout their opinions and ideas of how a philosophy of any kind “should be done”. That is fine. They are entitled to do so. Respectfully, I am entitled to disregard such advice.
I have found the genius of L Ron Hubbard by making Scientology mine. I alone have to be satisfied, or not, with the results. I alone determine my path based on my experiences with it. This makes the path clearly marked and the wins, experiences, cognitions and gains come pouring through. The benchmark is: How am I doing? Am I winning? Am I making a difference in my life, and those around me?
Such luxury of acquiring one’s space and commanding it as their own is not permissible in the DM mind control factory. It is, when you simply make Scientology your own.
Marty has made Scientology his own and has the right to consider it as he wishes. He should not be attacked and be told to make it someone else’s ideas. And, I bet he grants that same beingness to his PC’s, as he should. Do any of you think DM would audit a pc and let them actually make Scientology their own?? HA! Not in a million years. Such people who make Scientology their own, see the universe in a way unique only to them. DM altered the tech to make persons subservient and dependent on HIM. I think that is called implanting.
I make Scientology my own, and stand here with it as the most incredible experience on my track to have discovered it and to have it as my personal journey out of the quagmire. I don’t have to do anything else. I don’t need to agree or disagree with anyone else’s ideas on it. When you are forced to do such, you wind up a de-facto DM church product.
That is how I have won with Scientology. I know of no other way to win with it.
“An individual has the entire universe. He owns it, can have any part of it. His perception of it is his perception of it. It is not, and never will be, anybody else’s perception of it. And there alone lies the ownership of it.” LRH
Once there was a wise man walking down the road and a robber threatened him and took his valuables. The wise man bowed to him and said,” thank you so much for taking the burden of my karma from these tired shoulders and placing it upon your own.”
Like always Mr. Rathbun, you skillfully put universal wisdom back in context. What good are the different paths of enlightment available to us, if the introspection agressively uses exterior elements (read causes) ? Through clinging (opposite of letting go), the inner eyes are clumsily used to search further and further away, as far as possible from the beholder. By the way, the “three stooges answer” is priceless. Sincerest regards.
Marty,
I do not envy your position. So many think that you’re supposed to be the fixer. What a burden!
In the PDC tapes Ron talks about how trapped one gets by importance and fame. People get to expecting way too much of you. As though they need you to fulfill their dreams.
I would support you staring at them, blinking a few times, giving a big yawn and turning away from the whole role. I would just sit there and smile… Maybe even applaud. 🙂
I am having great wins doing Scientology outside the CoS right now because I have no concern of others pushing their own agenda on me.
I want you, and those who bite at your ankles, to have those wins also my friend. 🙂
L Ron Hubbard was a beautiful Bastard. I will never defend his mistakes, but I WILL acknowdlge his acomplishements and findings.
Science needs to wake up to this lost link.
+1.
Beautiful, Centurion
I just received another volley from an irate, prominent self-anointed ‘with Ron’ type of ‘Independent Scientologist’. It was actually an attempt to control through command, assigning me a Treason condition with instructions – after lengthy evaluations – to first apply the Confusion formula.
This is a very interesting post and frankly one of many over the past month or two. And it’s poking a stick into an area that Scientologists have been overly sensitive to for some time and for a very good reason – it’s true. Scientologists on a whole do Judge and they do find fault in others and they do evaluate for others and apparently they feel eminently qualified to do just that, because this phenomena has gone on for some time now. The technology itself seems to be ‘at fault’ with this compulsion, because it gives those that possess it in whatever degree, license to go ahead and apply it wherever and whenever. Having the Tech, as in having several books on a shelf or having done a course once, seems to be sufficient for many to move forth and evaluate and they have done so with such regularity that we are all a little shell-shocked over time by the half-baked analyses parsed out by our brethren.
I understand why some of us have said enough. This practice is wrong-headed and dangerous and perhaps most importantly makes us (Scientologists as a whole) look petty and vindictive and as unaware of compassion as a Black Widow. (My apologies to Arachnids as a group for this comparison.)
As an aside to the above, I have enjoyed the recent change on this blog. At least that is how I’ve viewed it personally. For over a year I saw this site as a source of current events within the Church and within the Indie Field. The linear progression, as it were, of how the Church was spiraling out of control, while it was assuring all its passengers that nothing was wrong.
I enjoyed that, found it helpful to read declarations of those who had had enough and found insight in the comments that others made at the time. More recently I have seen a shift. I have seen posts made by Marty that were thought provoking. That asked or urged its readers to look at something from a different, albeit uncomfortable perspective. One that challenged the norm and frankly was bound to piss some people off. Well that kind of conflict is needed. It’s actually essential if we are all going to move forward. Conflict brings about an interchange of ideas and information that help create reality. Helps to bring about an exchange of communication that will lead to a greater understanding of what we’re all dealing with.
It’s all good.
I consider Marty my Brother now, He has a killer wife. I am not a scientologist. but if the world of nerds needs to get me on my knees for a real course….. You slaggers. You never acomplisch much.
Mike R and Les W, great posts here. I was amazed to hear the accusation that Marty has “done” nothing! Let’s see, he wrote two books, is working on a third, has testified at hearings, has been interviewed for Lawrence’s Wright’s book, has audited many in his field practice, has written this blog, has moderated this blog, has had to move because of DM’s cameras and PI’s disrupting things…. need I go on? I’d say that auditing during the Squirrel Busting segment of his life is exactly what Ron says to do in that reference of let the firetruck speed to the fire and disregard the cur dogs nipping at it’s wheels. Marty has done just that! Yes the blaming instinct that the RCS has instilled in us all dies hard and takes a long while to shed. And some low toned ones will not shed it and they will suffer because of it. Marty and Mike and Les and others, keep doing what you’re doing and thank you for doing it!
I do agree with you, The FBI is a lame oergonization, If they can’t even lock up David David Miscavige then the Federal Bureau of Investigation is a mockorey. The FBI is a mockory for years in the outside countries because they never acomplish anything. My Kurdish friend has more DATA THAN THE cia OR fbi.
American Intelligence is pretty much an Oxymoron since Bush
+1 Absolutely!
Someone is really enjoying this dissent. Mmmmm, let me think……………. Open dialog is my God. Respectful disagreement is my polestar, non violent communication the sign of wisdom, biased screeds the sign of an immature mind. Thanks Marty for willing to put in the deep diving gear and ask honest questions. Questions are dangerous to true believers: always
heres something very interesting the church has been majorly advertising in the UK recently, i recently went to blackfriars tube station in london and all of the lightboxes and video monitors for advertising were all adverts for the church. the videowalls were adverts for the church repeating over and over, maybe this is understandable as the church’s queen victoria street base is 2 minutes away, then again i get on the underground go to leicester square station on the escalator out guess what on the advertising monitors again advertising the church. strangely no advertising at goodge street even though the ‘life improvement centre’ is next door.
yesterday im watching daytime tv at work what flashes up, the ‘knowledge’ advert from the superbowl! then 10 minutes later the same advert was on again! i have a feeling that dm is trying a major push in the uk, or is this as always about more money
Nice viewpoint, Maria.
Now ,honestly,I still think third party tech is a great thing 🙂
Marty
The dogs bark, yelp, whimper and whine, but the caravan moves on.
Tsk, tsk.
Where/Who is the 3. Party???
http://www.scientology-cult.com/who-we-are/friends.html
Sorry, Christine. It is not who you suspect.
Chris, great point.
I think that maybe we have done enough dramatizing “freedom from”, and it is time to go about working on “freedom to”.
(To mix metaphors) we’ve got a show to put back on the rails.
This comment makes me long for the days of Random Stranger. RIP, Don.
^^^^ Me likes!!
Yup! 😆
Blinding cognition: this is DM’s Art Series 8 for Admin Tech!
I’m not kidding. Folks, that is how DM runs Int and Gold. Moe Miscavige.
Great comment. It was such sentiments that had me examining the resignation of the Pope this week with great interest. The media here has been full of it, down to when exactly he lays down his Papal ring and so on – incredible detail of the ceremony and pageantry of his office. As if ANY of it had any significance to anything religious or spiritual. Not to knock Catholicism, but honestly, WTF? Their Church is still rife with sexual perverts; his own office almost certainly complicit in silence; the spiritual landscape of Britain – and I would suggest USA as well, is as barren as it’s ever been, and all they can do is get their knickers in a twist about one 80+ year old man stepping down to light a pipe and put his slippers on and which other 80+ year old man should replace him.
It does make you despair about Organised Religion generally I’ve been wondering if organised religion isn’t itself an oxymoron. Isn’t religious and spiritual study first and foremost and intensely personal and individual thing? And yet…I attend a Church of England church these days and have found great comfort from the teachings of Christ and sharing of views on religious matters. Nothing is off limits for discussion. Indeed it is actively encouraged. We have “pints of view” discussions at the local pub about all things biblical – a typical discussion would be “The opening chapters of Genesis – literal fact or metaphor?” Very liberating – no censoring of thoughts or ideas.
I forgot what my point was, or even if I had one so I’m off to enjoy the rest of my birthday.
^^^ what she said.
Marty,
I think the person who wrote you still has the need to follow someone.
The church is such a hierarchical organization with the constant threat of harsh punishments for non-compliance, it would seem that one of the primary re-adjustment obstacles in the decompression process would be getting used to not having someone lording over and making your decisions for you at all times. I could see these problems being similar to those of some former long-term prisoners, or even POW’s.
Given your lofty former status in the church, when you began to make noise and garner attention I think there was a group who expected you and your lieutenants to build an army and mobilize against Miscavige. Many wanted to be taking orders in an organization that would right the wrongs of the current church, while giving all the glory to Hubbard.
The fact that you’re encouraging more of a path of self-discovery while also incorporating non-Scientology philosophies obviously isn’t sitting well with some. And your questioning of some of the fundamentals of Scientology and, Heaven forbid, Hubbard himself is just too far out (at least for now) of the well-ingrained comfort zones of those who were ready rejoin the org and follow……. hence the number of blown gaskets we’ve seen of late.
What an incredible array of fantastic comments and observations from one and all today – proud to be in your hallowed company.
How can you say that though? The overt-motivator sequence itself shows that if something bad happens to you then you have to have done something bad, i.e. you deserved it. “Taking responsibility”, “Making things go right”, “you pulled it in”, “You are solely responsible for your place in life”. The bit about “taking responsibility for a man that died in some other part of the world.” In Scientology you must be responsible for everything.
This means that I am responsible that my parents got involved in Scientology. I am responsible for signing my Sea Org contract at 15 years old, an age where you don’t know a damn thing about how the world works, because I was driven to the brink of insanity by my recruiters. I am responsible for my family disconnecting from me because I spoke out about perceived injustices and because apparently I am denied my freedom of speech rights as long as I am involved in Scientology.
The “everything is your fault” idea is used in reg cycles, recruitment cycles, donation cycles to the point that it breaks people down and makes them give in because they are wrong for not wanting to donate their money or volunteer their time.
Just like when I posted my original story online I was told that I am contributing to the downfall of Scientology because I dared to open my big mouth to anyone but a Scientologist.
You are all here because you disagree with the way the church handles things. I disagree with the sentiments of Scientology as a whole because of they way they were used against me and my family and people around me time and time again.
The Church of Scientology uses shame and guilt to leverage people into submission. Even if Scientology supposedly doesn’t encourage that, the interpretations of it by the self-acclaimed authority on all things Scientology does encourage it.
+1. Fully agree, that’s my viewpoint too, beautifully said Centurion.
Well said indeed. Remember that the Church blames opponents, enemies, psychiatrists, governments, degraded beings, criminals, banky people, journalists, investigators, PTS people, authors, and parishioners who won’t give up their life savings for their problems. They could have moved the international headquarters to Nevada or Texas to take advantage of tax breaks in those states. No, the Church has to have a big presence in Glitterwood. Mistake after mistake can be attributed to the current Church (mis)management. Yet, to get parishioners to play the GPM game, the Church has to line up and denigrate its “enemies”, using the us vs. them mentality to get people to pour more money into the Church coffers. I remember when I got in. The Church wasn’t playing the money vs. enemies game and things actually were expanding. Now, alas, cometh shrinkage.
“Just like when I posted my original story online I was told that I am contributing to the downfall of Scientology because I dared to open my big mouth to anyone but a Scientologist.”
I should have added: The truth is that the Church of Scientology is the only one to blame because if they didn’t treat people so badly, I wouldn’t have felt the need to speak out. But I was forced to accept the brunt of that responsibility in lieu of the church itself fessing up to it’s wrong-doings.
These so-called “With-Ron” folks are not applying Scientology. I quote from “Advanced Procedures and Axioms”, chapter on Responsibility:
Quote:
DEFINITION: Responsibility is the ability and willingness to assume the status of full source and cause for all efforts and counter-efforts on all dynamics.
There is no compromise with full responsibility. It lies above 20.0 on the tone scale and is descended from in order to effect randomity but is descended form with the full knowledge of its assumptions. It means responsibility for all acts, all emotions on every dynamic and in every sphere as one’s own. It includes such “disrelated” data as the death of an individual one has never met on a highway on which one has never traveled at the hands of a stranger no matter how culpable. One does not send to find for whom the bell tolls without full willingness to have tolled it and to have caused the cause of its tolling.
…
There is a cycle of responsibility. One acts and seeks to negate his responsibility for such action by placing the “reason” at another’s door. This works as long as one succeeds in making another accept responsibility for the action. The moment this action fails and another does not accept it, the entire action comes back at one. It is then a matter of fault and fixed (by another) blame and stirs the emotion of guilt.
End Quote, emphasis in original.
This is page 57-58 of my 1975 version of AP&A.
This stuff blew me away when I was a kid (and still does) and it one the key areas of gain I have had with Scientology.
Look, we are all responsible for the Church. We are. So are church members. So is DM. There is no need to apply effort to it. There is no need to assign blame or “conditions” to it. We just need to recognize it as-is. And be our best selves, keep our own counsel, and do what we feel is right.
Oh, and to address the second point – You can’t do Scientology without questioning and thinking.
Cat, that is one of the best descriptions I have ever heard of Ron, and he would agree. In fact, he would occasionally hand out “High Class Bastard” trophies to people who shook things up for the better.
Agree 100% The only way Scientology will survive is if we own it. Each of us.
“It is a great learning opportunity.” On so many levels!
“I’ve learned …. That opportunities are never lost; someone will take the ones you miss.” ― Andy Rooney
Happy Birthday Martin!
That’s the problem isn’t it? Ron made sweeping comments about things, and then backed off on specific cases. Like someone having an accident because they were keyed out, exterior, and forgot to duck the body. Is this person PTS? Only to the degree they still had a body. I mean, you are on this planet, in a meat body. You are PTS to “a greater or lesser degree.”
Surely there is more than one side to the issue as you state it. For example, didn’t Ron blame psychs for screwing up peoples cases? just for beginners? Yes he did. Just for beginners. Didn’t Ron blame ‘suppressive types’ for screwing up work environments? yes he did. The list goes on.
Cognitive dissonance ought be granted equal stature with the incessant need to blame and deny.
Larry
I am glad Marty pointed this out. It is part of the process, in my opinion, but even if not, it is important to know that it is happening. Why? Because we don’ need no stinkin’ badges.
Hi Norton.
It is abundantly clear to we in RTC that no one here understands COB’s Code of Leadership:
1. The fundamental duty of all Scientologists at all times is to create a perfect environment for COB.
2. By definition, COB can do no wrong. Therefore, the fundamental duty of COB is to blame others all the time for everything that is not going right in his environment or in the Church Scientology at large.
3. COB may, at his sole discretion, mock up blame where none exists. COB may mock up others as being pie-faced criminals out to sabotage and undermine his proven system of paranoid cross-ordering and micromanaging that has resulted in 55,901 new Ideal Orgs.
4. COB is responsible for the creation of an effect called Ideal Orgs. As such, all Scientologists in good standing must become the effect of Ideal Orgs.
5. COB is responsible for the creation of an effect called the IAS. As such, all Scientologists in good standing must become the effect of the IAS.
6. COB is not responsible for his personal conduct nor does he know how to be. COB considers that personal responsibility, like auditing, is for lesser beings and he wants nothing to do with such things.
7.If others find fault with COB’s conduct it is only because they are paid to do so by Big Pharma.
8. To the extent that the Psych media seeks to attack COB or the Church, the Psychs are to blame.
9. COB is able to hit, kick, punch, slap, or verbally abuse others from the viewpoint that they deserved it or had it coming because they are to blame for having enturbulated COB.
10. Danny Sherman is ghostwriting a book for COB. Entitled, “The Power of Blame: Why I Am Always Right,” the book is due out in June. This book will be a refreshing antidote to all of the hater books now on the market. Intended for those who wish to be right by blaming others, COB’s book will be a welcome addiction to the personal libraries of all dramatizing psychotics everywhere!
: . ) : . ) : . )
Let me just say here:
No one tells me anymore what is, and what is not Scientology, or what I should do, or how I should feel about Ron, Mary Sue, Marty, Mayo, David Miscavige, or anyone else. I am independent, and that means completely independent of thought, action, and opinion.
Now, I admire the hell out of Marty and Mosey. They went through a hell we cannot fathom because they had the fearlessness to be there and communicate, and speak the truth on their own terms.
I admire the hell out of Mike Rinder, and Christie, and Karen, and Steve, and the list is long – for what? For trying to defend Ron? For trying to defend Scientology? We don’t NEED to defend Scientology, or Ron. Scientology will stand or fall on TRUTH. As with Ron.
No! I admire you guys for speaking the truth, despite the risk.
How many people here may never see their loved ones again because of the church, because of the stand they took? How many here have lost their loved ones? How many people here have donated their youth and health to this thing called Scientology?
Who here has the right to judge anyone? To “put” anyone in a “condition?”
Scientology is mine, and it is yours. No one has the right to tell me (or you) otherwise.
Mark Patterson
LRH commented on how beings can be powerful yet lack intelligence.
I submit that dramatising anything includes a lack of intelligence.
More processing usually increases intelligence, and note intelligence can be more than merely IQ. Judgement for example.
Education can be an implant. We weren’t usually given engrams in a course room.
Propaganda can be an implant, but is not usually an engram.
Scn has majored on propaganda and education.
Perhaps not so much the manifestation of charge, though I’m sure that applies, but more a lack of intelligence. Or a susceptability to indoctrination, perhaps another way of expressing that.
Marty you nailed it in comments on judgemental.
Here is commentary by Phil Spickler. Class VIII friend of LRH in the early fifties, former father in law to Tom Cruise, and not widely known the guy
who met the IRS commissioner and got an agreement to restore Scn’s
tax exempt statement. He sent an envoy who waited in the snow for a few hours until Phil returned. Around 1975.
Phil got his second or maybe third declare for his efforts after he sent the details upline.
Phil here does something amazing. Uses “Godwins Law “as an
artform. 🙂
Unfortunately, a lot has been left to the imagination.
All I know for sure is that someone is against Marty and that they embody all that is wrong with Scientology. They are bad and we are good. We are enlightened and they unfortunately have not peeled off all of their onion layers yet. There is rightness under those layers. Praise be to rightness!
I actually hate them, whoever they be. I am literally foaming a little.
Actually, it’s froth from my latte- nevermind.
So now, Oh hell try Vampirefreaks
Well put, Aeolus. Marty—-I hear often of peeps who are pissed at you, for one reason or another. One of the key things I hear is “Marty is really planning to take over the church”. After laughing a bit (and I’ve never met you personally—yet I feel w/ confidence I can say that ain’t your future, nor your goal)-with that in mind, I ask A) “What happened to Anonymous’ “Docs or STFU?” and B) I’m happy the attacks go to Marty. for awhile. Good…let him take some shit for awhile! Many of us have taken it for years” (and my guess would be you, Marty, helped run some of that…correct me if I’m wrong).
I greatly appreciated you posting my 26 step program to “slime me on the Net, Slime me with the Media and get me fired from my job”…. written by OSA and run on me, since 2006. If you have more programs on others, it may be a *great* time to post those, too 🙂
Also, I will remind you, Marty, of what many critics used to say to me, when OSA was writing literally thousands of flat out lies about me (on ARS) in the early 2000’s: “You must be doing “something” right that they are attacking you this badly”. I have no idea who these “Independents” are, my guess is you do?
Either way—I say MOVE ALONG PEEPS>>>>>anyone helping get people out of the Cult should at the very least be left alone…certainly not picked apart, or blamed. That IS what OSA does, all day long, usually very covertly. May I remind anyone reading this of the “OSA International Internet Top Secret Program’s goals:
1) Distract off of *any* hot topic, any way, any how.
2) Degrade any and all critics they do not want people to read or listen to…this includes of course “Divide and Conquer”
3) Slime the area (they don’t want read) with just crap—so people don’t even want to put their names on it.”
THOSE ARE THEIR 3 GOALS. IF you are contributing to ANY of 1, 2 or 3…you ARE ASSisting OSA, whether you know it or not. (And let me make s/t clear here: Obviously we all can disagree, talk, etc. That is entirely different than the above program—which is constant, they often won’t answer your questions, they do consistently post black pr or BS about ex-Scientologists, Critics, Anons, or Scios now out. It’s not the same as a natural discussion and IF you look, you can see it).
I’m always sorry to see any active critics picked apart….unless they are doing more harm than good, which happens too. Ahhhh how deep this web really is. My suggestion is: Speak up, Marty—it’s time. Transcending is great…except when people are left in the dust asking: “WTF about MY LIFE could you share that *may* give me some peace?”
From all that I’ve heard and read, both from others and yourself…..You helped run many OSA programs, or certainly knew about many and probably could share more w/ specific individuals. I don’t mean to put you on the spot—I know you’ll do whatever you will do, no matter what I say, including not posting this, which is certainly your right.. Please…for your sanity and theirs….consider sharing a few more each week. 🙂
May I add, as I see it, you’ve accomplished Part A—helping get many people safely out and speaking out, too. Many people have thanked you for this, and no doubt shall continue to do so, myself included.
IMNSHO: Part B needs to be more exposure of the C of $’s serious abuses.
If you have any knowledge of these actions, which I feel I can confidently say you do–why not share them? Once that is done…then Part C–_transcending can occur. My intention is to help you, and those I know who so desperately want to learn “Just the facts”. Will you help?
My best to all…Tory/Magoo ((And to the OSA ops, and anyone lurking: WTFU! Bail while u still CAN!))~~Your local, Friendly SP!
I love that you think, even if I don’t always agree with your thoughts. My very best wishes to you and yours.
Some of the above comments brought to mind an LRH quote I came across not to long ago, that I think is appropriate here.
” There are people right here right now that still, maybe, are grieving to some degree about some incident like a marital separation or the loss of a child or something like this, that find that persistent with them, who are saying to themselves, ‘If I could admit that I really did it.’ Or, you know, ‘I really realized to a large degree that it’s my fault. (sigh)’ And it doesn’t go away. They’re trying to accept the responsibility. They’re trying to accept the blame for this incident and they didn’t do it! Somebody else did. Full responsibility contains the willingness to let somebody else be responsible too.”
Excerpted from the lecture The Descent of Man delivered on 5 June 1955
Fundamentalists of any religion seem to miss the point of the religion altogether. They are so busy examining every leaf and twig that they miss the beauty of the tree, let alone the forest.
People often say “What would Ron do?” then proceed to do the complete opposite. I know for sure that Ron would never join somebody else’s religion then sit around meekly following any order or policy no matter how stupid. Many know my personal opinion of the man, but he sure wasn’t a ‘yes man’.
It reminds me of that episode in Star Trek: The Next Generation where Captain Picard has the opportunity to avoid being stabbed in the heart – that moment of laughing at death – and his alternate future sees him no longer a starship captain but a mild-mannered nobody in the engineering department.
By questioning and exploring for himself Marty is actually being far more true to the person Hubbard aspired to be than the fundie indies sitting there like Amish with their telex machines and overboardings.
If they want to stay shackled by rules and regulations – be pedants with plums up their bums and “cat’s bum” mouths – let them. They forget that their own precious founder was the person who wrote “purpose is senior to policy”. The whole thing is laughable.
Let them froth, I say, and enjoy all of the unique and wonderful treasures that the world has to offer – especially your hard-bought freedom.
Hi Dan — it’s not a who it’s a them 🙂
Marty mentioned more than one. The first one wrote something recently. The other two wrote something a month ago.
In any case, the absence of several (more than 3) fairly regular posters on this blog is what leads me to suspect who I think might be.
My life being one of little “doing” … it helps to pass the time …
Christine
“It is years of ‘you pulled it in. You are responsible, etc.’ Of course the accuser never think that you could reverse the argument…”
Fun to do that and workable.
Once when I was quite unexpectedly buttonholed and hit up for major money to bail out a certain European org (“The SPs are out in full force! This org could be shut down! That would mean NO Scientology delivered in ___!!! This is a serious Call-To-Arms to Scientologists worldwide!”) my spontaneous response (to my own actual utter surprise) was, “How did these guys pull this in? Sounds like they’ve been off-policy or out-tech or both.. What have they been doing to allow these SPs to invade their space?”
LOL!!!!! My answer was a quick gulp and a dropping of the subject.
Thank you Centurion. Your comments lifted me out of a deepening sense of gloom that has enveloped me over the past few weeks as I make my way through all the comments. I could be wrong, but I’m feeling that the tech, its uniqueness, workability and power, are getting lost in the shuffle. It seems like recently there have been as many Lao Tze quotes as LRH quotes. I don’t know, I studied all these earlier philosophers and while I thought they said a lot of cool stuff, I never saw a real workable path there. I never found one until Scientology. Call me judgmental, maybe I am. But I’m finding myself drifting away.
Who is meaningless – only a terminal upon whom to afix blame. Don’t miss the moon for the finger pointing at it.
When I first saw your blog and saw you and Mike Rinder, two of the people who were top executives, had left the Cof$, I was very happy. When I saw your exposures about Miscavige hitting people and that you both along with other confirmed the existence of the Hole, had been yourselves victims of it and all the other stuff that you kept feeding us, I was relieved as I saw that there is hope for Scientology.
Actually, the whistle blowing of DM’s atrocities was good and had a great impact on the world and Scientologists alike. More than the fact that there was squirrel tech. In the beginning I was a bit puzzled over that, not that this specific attitude by DM is to be condoned. On the contrary, it is something I didn’t experience myself in lower levels of the Sea Org. I am talking about the physical part. I was too kept captive for more than 3 months with security but I had rebelled and kept my position in space, even if captive.
So, after a while seeing all the scores of people declaring their Independence through this one blog mainly and hearing and being informed by all the actions Marty, Mike and others were taking to inform people about DM and defend themselves and Scientology from the attacks and squirreling of the little dictator, I was sure we were on the right path.
My action to help Scientology was to write on the internet since 2000 about the high crimes of DM on the subject of translations, a major subject for the rest of the planet, except for the english speaking countries. Plus as an Indie to never stop communicating and encouraging other Indies to keep auditing and helping people. Also 3 times I had auditors either visit or audit people here in Athens and help us a bit.
So, whoever does not get that the current scene is an anomaly in itself and tries to blame others does not get it.
Marty and many others, but especially Marty has helped tremendously to de-PTS a very large portion of Scientologists. And he keeps doing it. So this is very important and well accepted by me and others.
The fact that Marty wants to point to other books, authors and ideas is not contrary to what we are doing here or have been doing all along in Scientology. Actually, there is an sense of freedom in the air once again. It’s good to breath free in such an environment.
It’s not that I always agree with Marty or he always agrees with my views. But he always has been posting what I had to say and this shows that Marty cares for another type of scene.
So those who just blame are blind because through here and thanks to Marty many Scientologists have spent hours of communication exchanging ideas and viewpoints thus helping each other build that long lost ARC amongst us.
I wouldn’t say that without this blog we would be lost. There is Facebook but this blog has been the main meeting point where all minds meet and think together. This has never happened in Scientology before. It did happen here and is a big thing which needs to be validated IMO.
The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on…
Your friends misunderstand the term Stimulus-Response, scientifically speaking. I don’t want to be a science Nazi, and Im unaware if LRH has used and redefined this term in Scientology, but it doesn’t mean what they think it means.
The sad thing here is that you are accused, if I read it correctly, of:
1) not directly and forcefully leading some kind of Rebel Alliance. Never mind your ‘1000 leaders’ statement, or that they were asking you to be New Miscavige
2) telling you that your response to the window licking brigade that besieged your home was not the right thing, so they have to cut… Hold the phone, what?
“Dave, a burglar broke into my house last night!”
“No way! What did you do?”
“Called the police and hid in the attic, what else?”
“You mean you didn’t cover yourself in green war paint and charge him screaming ‘death to the infidel!’, like I would’ve done?”
“Um, no Dave”
*sighs* “Oh. Well, Im afraid if you didn’t do what I would’ve done, Im going to have to cut ties with you. Unless you beg. Publicly.”
“Get out of my house Dave. No wonder no-one likes you anymore”
Unbelievable. We can be friends if we do everything the same all the time. I can’t even begin to comprehend that.
The funny thing here, is for all the posturing, all the talk of what you being ‘stimulus-response’, this is exactly what they are doing. They are defining themselves based on Marty – Im with/against Marty, I told Marty he is in Treason, I don’t speak to Marty.
If they were genuinely concerned with the state of Scientology, they wouldn’t have time to worry about Martys actions; they’d be too busy. You would be a passing thought at best. But their lack of action and their willingness to define who THEY are by YOUR actions paints a rather comical picture.
– Those who wish to sing always find a song
I completely agree.
Marty,
“Learn to let go.” is so spot on. Whatever it is, some people need to give it a good “that’s it” to end cycle on it and move on. If people would only do that, their whole world would settle down. All the blame would go away and they’d actually find they could assume cause and be responsible for their own life. Along with it would come a bonus; the ability to grant beingness. No small matter, that one. It makes for a much happier life.
Pat
HCOPL 21 Jan 65 revised 5 April 65.
Vital Data on Promotion
“You can therefore know your enemies by those who seek to knock out any part of your
a) Power
b) Authority
c) Personnel
d) Wealth
e) Property
Vol 2. L.R.H.
So, someone has already decided you should be harmed attacked suppressed.
THEY are in an enemy condition towards YOU. Assigning YOU a lower condition.
I mean, sure, this happens all the time. Pretty ordinary. Within a lower condition people are apt to throw out wrong indications and wrong items along their purpose line to harm attack and suppress. They will use “the tech” to harm attack and suppress. They are in a lower condition with that too.
When you understand it is all stemming from a lower condition on the part of the enemy confronting you, it’s like watching someone sneeze at the table and some of their snot lands on your clothing or plate.
I don’t take these things personally. “Conditions” is way up there on the awareness scale. A lot of people have no awareness of their own condition. Or anyone else’s. Usually someone in an enemy condition is that way across their own dynamics. And it is not about you at all. It is just them manifesting an enemy condition.
You are out there on the front lines, and people like this will stop to take a pee in your yard beyond concern.
You see later it was NEVER about you.
Remember the violent protest here about thumb symbols on the blog?
What a mind fuck they were? Putting people in mystery etc etc?
That person has a blog now and guess what? Yes. Thumb symbols are on it.
It was never about the thumbs. A large % of the social intercourse on this planet lacks in any reason. So it makes no sense to try to make reason come from it.
A person’s ability to survive starts in their mind. With reason. Failing that, survival drops into the heart area as a back up plan. You hope people can love and care for others even if they can’t reason with the mind. Failing that, it drops to the dick as a last resort and someone starts a pissing contest. That one comes straight from me. 🙂
How I love your posts, OTVIIIisGrrrt. Much laughter!!
Marty…. Just l<3
People come and go in and out of our lives. Each goes the way he must and follows his own path.
My life is better for having known you.
So…. Just ❤
“The rather lengthy screed I received pronounced me guilty of the current horrid state of Scientology on the planet today. ”
Well, let’s put this to rest. I am the total blame for all of that. I did not move forward to take over the Church as David Miscavige did. If I had done so, it would all look different today. I did not want to take over the Church or take responsibility for it. Now, I don’t want to even more.
And I am sure the person accusing you ruining it all, felt the same way.
Otherwise they would be in charge, and we would all be living happily every after.
Dan, I hear you! This is why we are so many right now, who express our big, big objection to all this.
Phil Spickler says what needs to be said, and does it beautifully.
Love the humor, it helps to diffuse the situation, LOL!
For some Indies to come forward and criticize you or even assign conditions is beyond believe. This “blame” idiosyncrasy is so much ingrained within Scientology culture. I think it is a good thing you point this out because it is one of the many horrible Scientology attributes we must ourselves shed off.
The feeling is mutual Sam.
I’ve always wondered why he’s called “Chairman Of The Board”
There is no “Board” for him to be “Chairman” of….He’s a dictator and there is no one who can remove him. OUTPOINT! 🙂
Gung Ho groups aren’t they used to be! Laughter!
Laughter!
Marty,
Here’s my answer to the “with Ron” people making you wrong, who possibly may be reading this blog:
___________________________________________________________
In concert with his primary goals and life purposes, Marty Rathbun wears a number of vital hats. The dynamics work together. To violate his own integrity by not wearing any one or more of his own vital hats would collapse his dynamics and eventually cause him to not even be able wear the vital (I’ll call it) Don Quixote Hat which YOU have decided is the only one he should be wearing.
___________________________________________________________
And a question from me to these people;: Over-Thereness is why you’re no longer in the RCS. How is it working for you as Indies?
Dan… always good to hear from you. We picked a bad time to live away from the Bay area.. Giants, 9ers and even Warriors doing well. Stay warm. Mark McKinstry
Hello Derek. Maybe someone here can help me out with the reference where LRH says that not everything that happens to you is your fault.
What happened to you was wrong, and it was the result of people who use Scientology to dominate others and get what they want. And it was also the result of those who are trying desperately to be right. Neither of these seem to have much of an idea of what Scientology is really all about.
This too shall pass, and I’m sure that you will get your family back someday. Meantime, make a wonderful life for yourself, as I’m sure you are.
You a great sense of humor Marty. Which one is DM?
You have a great sense of humor.
Sorry..
Oh excuse me? I had someone stomp around my house saying. “I’m here to put ethics in on the Freezone!” He appointed himself the MAA of the world outside of the Church. That was because he had no other skills to offer, but witch hunts. I guess he was going to make that his niche. War and battle, noise and chaos. He was as squirrely as a fortune teller at a carnival show. Don’t think they are not out here too, they are:
http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html
http://www.scambusters.org/financialliteracy.html
The Last Waltz. Fantastic production. Great album. I have it on vinyl.
Tory, my favorite blonde lady with the OT abilities! 🙂 I smile every time I see your photo. I can see you are a friend. My point is, got it! “This one says this, this one says that, someone said Marty…., someone wrote Marty….it was on a blog that Marty…” And bingo, sometimes people forget. Remember the Church of Scientology? Does anybody remember them? 🙂 The people that love to write fake bomb threats to themselves with YOUR fingerprints on the bomb threat. The “church folks” that break in to the U.S. Justice Department’s files in broad daylight for the cause! 🙂 The Sea Org members at Flag that beat people up in the basement of the Fort Harrison at 7:00 a.m. for their family’s inheritance monies. 🙂 And the list goes on. I guess that people like that would never falsely libel or slander anyone including Marty. 🙂 Tory, you are so OK.
The person attacking you, is not the WHO. It is only the puppet of the WHO standing in the shadows, staying “hidden”, and prodding him up the butt with a hot poker.
Squeezing him and restimulating him, until he squeaks like a squeak toy.
Standing ovation! Thank you Theo!
I suspect that those who are the ‘with Ron’ type of Independent Scientologists are stuck in a mentality that fails to understand and see that RON HAD HIS OWN CASE and this shows up glaringly throughout ‘scientology’ catechisms, practices and ceremonies.
Thus one should especially employ discernment with regards to the interpretation of the subject at large. Moreover, here in 2013, how does anyone reform the image of a multiple decade, world-wide discredited criminally inclined cult?
In no way do I knock the proven Red on White stuff, though.
I guess some want to create the next Vatican. Seems like another dramatization to me. Hip Hip Hooray…………..
“Learn to let go. I assure you that if you work on it it will move you on up a little higher in disposition and character.”
This message of ‘letting go’ is one I’ve been consistently and gently receiving, through all manner of vias, for almost a year now. I suspect that the message has been arriving for much longer but I was not able to perceive it.
The larger message was…let go of everything. Let go of all your conceptualizations, all your interpretations, all your beliefs about who and what you are, all your special relationships i.e., all your special loves and all your special hates, all your judgments…just let go of absolutely everything and what will remain will be the never changing truth that Always IS.
‘Letting go’ is fairly simple to embrace as a theory but ‘letting go of everything’ is not nearly so. And then to go from theory to application….well, that will turn shit on! But, here’s where my SC training served me. Because I knew that what turned it on would turn it off. That noted, the process continues in increments. Surprisingly, it has been a lot easier for me to let go of my ‘special hates’ than my ‘special loves.’ Also, and this has been an interesting one for me…I’ve been able to let go of my causes. In other words, I no longer view the world or those in it, regardless of how pitiful it all may appear or how much meaning and value I may assign to it, as needing to be ‘saved.’
“Let it all go.” Is, IMO, one hellacious auditing command from Me to me! Of course, the only things that really go are the ‘precious’ lies that I have substituted for the truth.
Great post Marty! Hard to believe someone is accusing you of lack of doingness. After all of the work you have put into fixes. That is an indication so wrong it hurt me on an others to others flow!
Most of the doingness out here right now is because of the fixes you have made and the knowledge you have made public. You have even changed doinginess in the Church! The abuse has slowed way down. Well there is the elder abuse in your previous blog. But after social services investigates they might knock that off too.
The twisted truth is, while you are changing all of that, someone out here watching you, is taking the opportunity to ABUSE YOU!
That is as crazy as it gets.
Hey Ralphie
Things are goin’ good. See you on the road. Yea, Van Morrison!
Norton
Oh my god! Pope Moe!
Hi Carol… If I may…?
Rather than what they could have done…
Perhaps…
What can THEY DO…
Present tense and looking forward oneself… As opposed to past tense and looking back at others…
Just an offering…:-)
Hello hammer… Me and the other nails were just wondering why you keep hitting us on the head.
😄
Brilliant!
HI Michael, Great to see you here. Off topic – Been watching Firefly! Well done on playing a real SP. LOL Hope all is going well for you!
Mark, you leave behind steps that I can come along and push off from. 🙂
“I am independent, and that means completely independent of thought, action, and opinion.”
Yes, there is no ‘outside’, there is no ‘over there’ and there is no ‘other.’ However, there is a mirror reflection that we perceive to be the ‘outside’, the ‘over there’ and the ‘other.’ But, because the reflection we sense does not resemble the ‘me’ we perceive ourselves to be, we mistake the reflection to be a solid reality outside of self.
Blaming is my way to rid myself of guilt. ‘Others’ seemingly blaming me, is how I get to see my guilt and then forgive it. Guilt, btw, over some imagined wrong doing that never even happened.
Of course, even though what I wrote here is a scenario sitting at the top of my sliding scale of probability (you might say it’s my truth at this time), the instant I posted it here it became my opinion.and that’s all it’s meant to be taken as.
Great post and subject Marty, thank you. The subject you brought up is very true: “The technology, in pure, sane application can deliver a person to the state where he or she truly understands that he or she is responsible for his or her own condition.” I couldn’t agree more.
It is probably safe to say that most or all of us have done some/good amount of blaming prior to SC which when the tech is applied right reduces towards zero as we progress up the bridge. However those who do not make it passed the event horizon (that is they don’t take responsibility) seem to be getting just more stirred up and end up blaming even more.
The more overts one has the less likely they can ever get up to “escape velocity” from their own “black hole” (the mass representing their case and overts).
I always thought that one has to reach a point where they forgive self and swipe the plate clean, which then makes it possible to escape the blame game. The more overts one has prior to SC (or any other self enlightenment practice) the harder it is to do just that. It is possible at least in theory that many can get into the condition where there is no way to help them escape the pull of their own black hole. Seems like you happened to be on the radar of a few of these guys and you are handling them just fine. In on one ear, out the other.
Mike,
You know we know.
If Marty is the hammer to the proverbial nail then you are the nut cracker to the pistachio my friend.
By the by… This whole blame thing dissolved like a biscuit in tea for me when I stumbled across Brene Brown.
An extraordinarily gifted and supremely meticulous researcher she left no stone unturned until she had cross checked, verified and re-crossed checked all her evidence (gathers over the course of many years) to airport the definition of blame.
It is quite the definition.
😊
“Support” not “airport”… Fat fingers…;-)
Shantideva, the 8th century Indian scholar, wrote:
“Some there be that loathe me; then why
Shall I, in being praised, rejoice?
Some there be that praise me; then why
Shall I brood over blaming voice?”
George M. White
Heads up alert!
David Miscavige has a new moniker! (I see white smoke.)
POPE MOE!
Rod
You said… “Most former members seem to keep some part of the auditing tech but lose the ethics when they leave the cult.”
Here are my thoughts on this.
I have not found this statement to be true. What is true about it is that the use of ethics as punishment is not usually carried forward. However, as you will have seen from Marty’s post above, even that is not true when you get down to it.
One of the fundamental problems with Scientology ethics, is the fact that it has been misused for so long that some have a hard time understanding what it really is.
Ethics, in its proper use is a totally fantastic piece of useful philosophy. It is actually the very stuff of survival, and one really only suffers, when he suffers at all, because of his ignorance and/or misuse of ethics.
I am not talking about “ethics” as injustice, license to evaluate, invalidate or suppress, or any of its other misuses. I am talking about the tool that you can personally use to achieve, or at least pursue, your concept of optimum survival across the dynamics.
Those, in any endeavor, who are succeeding, are successfully using “ethics”, whether they realize it or not.
Eric S
Bravo Maria
Magoo…
I wouldn’t say this directly to anyone else as I think I would be wasting my time… But (though we’ve never met) I get the feeling you might be able to take this onboard… And hopefully pass it on.
What I never see acknowledged in any comment about what Mike and Marty should or should not do is the acceptance of the fact that they are both human beings, just like you and me, who are on their own journey on this earth.
Like you and me they are figuring out their own experience with Scientology and… To steal a well known hollywood phrase… Asking themselves “what the fuck just happened?” And then, just like you and me, they have to get on with their lives and find a balance between “storming the castle” and… Well… You know… Like… Live a life.
There are about 10,000 (I’m guessing here) individual barometers being measured as to the “acceptable actions” of Mike and Marty.
Why is it so many “need” them to do anything?
I was personally shoved against a wall and “gang bang” sec checked by Marty Rathbun while DM was watching and listening in. I tried to take my own life about a week later on account of not seeing any point in existing anymore. Marty played no small part in my state of mind back then. But there is fuck all he can do about it now. The only one who can is me. I figured that out a long time ago.
Be the change you want to see in the world and stop asking other people to do it for you “because they owe it to you”.
Please?
And yes I know Tori… Of all the people you are the least that need telling that to. But it surprised me that you would ask, very politely I’ll admit, them to do anything.
They have done, are doing and no doubt will continue to do bucket loads. Will it be enough to re-balance their Karma account? Who knows. It is between them and their maker. Not me or you.
Let’s leave them to it eh?
“The enemy is always in the mind”
Perfect.
Good one Cat Daddy!
Laughter!
Standing ovation Les! Your words are always like listening to music!
Or perhaps even out rank it…?
Blame is one of the most addictive forms of human behaviour ever studied. There is an immediate solice experienced when one blames.
But like any good drug it always needs more and more to achieve the same “pleasure” from it’s use.
The best part is that no matter what type or flow (oneself, others, the past, etc, etc) it is completely and utterly unnescesary to living.
Conversely the more one blames the more one “needs” to blame until eventually you have a junkie in the project basement. Recover is possible, but sometimes the withdrawal symptoms are just too dangerous.
There is a reason we blame. Figure that out and life gets very easy, very quickly.
I know because I did and it has.
I had written a long comment but could nto post it. This is a test
From The Creed of the Church of Scientology:
“That all men have inalienable rights to think freely, to talk freely, to write freely their own opinions and to counter or utter or write upon the opinions of others.”
The C of S now declares people who think, talk, or write freely their own opinions. Apparently some Indies now disconnect from folks who dare to think freely.
Unable to tolerate a diversity of thought; what an awful condition to be in!
The C of S run by DM is a KNEE-JERK organization, period!
Thanks Terril!
So now we know: You are guilty of the current horrid state of Scientology on the planet today. You totally mishandled the corporate Scientology attacks upon you and your family. Rather than tangling with the cur dogs nipping at the wheels of the fire engine [interesting metaphors], you have become one of them. Worst of all, you are not getting people to do, you are getting people to question and think about.
I am pounding the table laughing!
Just Me
Yes PlainOldThetan.
Your first sentence +1
In Spite of P/L “The Why is God”
BLAME is in the very DNA of the culture in Radical Official Scientology.
Every EVAL (evaluation) must have a WHO.
I recall Mark Ingber sending me on mission to audit former CO CLO EUS Bo Wennberg. in the early 1980s.
Now dead RIP.
I had no folders, only a 12 question sec check to do as REVENUE $$$$$ in East US has plunged.
Bo Wennberg blew (fled) 2 weeks after the 12 question sec check.
I was summoned by then then IJC Hamish Hamilton
(who also blew/fled …starting the precedent of even an International Justice Chief fleeing the insanity)
Hamish assigned me to heavy sadistical galley pipe cleaning 18 hours a day.
I demanded to know why.
An EVAL had found me as the WHO of the entire Eastern United States !
It was ME.
My 12 question sec check had missed Bo Wennberg’s CRIMES !
I had mutual ruds with Bo Wennberg !
I had mutual crimes !
3 weeks later it was revealed that Bo had prostate cancer and it had come back and his Doctor told him he would live on a schedule that required him to be til 3am daily. He fled to handle his cancer !
In the meantime, the Church insanity nailed me for sagging the REVENUE of the the entire Eastern United States ! Yes, it was Criminal wilfulness due to unrestrained evil…..:lol: 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆
The Eval passed AVC INT and all handlings implemented. Because I was so in the tunnel, I continued to serve ……no one to blame there…..I was the ultimate fool. So be it.
I’m not sure that I understand this “think” on Blame. Blame per definition as a Verb is “Assign responsibility for a fault or wrong” Noun
“Responsibility for a fault or wrong. ” I don’t feel I am assigning power to the chick that pulled out in the street w/o looking left to see that I was coming along and hit my car, yes siree her insurance paid, not mine, she was to “blame”. How about the children/animals who are being abused in our society as we speak – are we assigning power by blaming the person doing the abusing – hell no – we are assigning responsibility where its due and protecting the vunerable from these monsters. Take it a step deeper, much deeper, blaming Hitler for the millions that died from his reign, are we assigning him power by blaming – no we are assigning him responsibility as well as the minions who forwarded that power resulting in that horrible, horrible devastation to humanity. Yes Hitler is to blame and his minions but some of them escaped and helped to eventually bring him down. Just as Marty was once DM’s minion, he escaped and reformed so to continue to blame him is the wrong target as he is no longer there! Virtually no one has been able to step up to DM and take him down that is within, they are too cowed, submissive or overpowered and only those who have escaped can see it clearly, but will never be allowed inside the fortress to help these poor souls that are being slapped about. IMO some of those poor jews, that were being incinerated, came to the conclusion that they were worthless and deserved to die in the gulags. So are they to blame? Yes, to the degree they allowed themselves to beaten into such a state but what choice did they have? Someone has to be blamed for getting them into that state and I blame Hitler and his minions just as I blame DM and his minions for carrying out the assassination of LRH tech designed to free beings and all the other atrocities that have been duly reported. Hindsight is 20/20 and so many who were/are there were blindsided, so I guess we are all to blame for not being smart enough to take a stand early on but the point is we are here now to a greater or lesser degree (some loudly announcing their independence; some just quietly walking away; some saying they are no longer Scientologists; some just continuing to pretend allegiance to avoid the aftermath of disconnections from their families and/or their livelihoods built around a once vibrant Scientology field; some just blindly ignorant; some managing to get gains despite the out-tech being committed). So the opportunity is truly what each and everyone of us who has escaped does and therein lies the huge variation.
What I have respect for is that Marty (Mike Rinder too) (and others) despite receiving the hugest shellackings you can imagine by the Cof$, didn’t sell out, that in itself speaks volumes as to integrity and otherwise. So many have sold out and gone quietly into the sunset never to be heard of again. Therefore they have my deepest respect. It’s a lonely road to travel and knowing that there is support, love and encouragement is the best acknowledgement you can get. Hell, none of them are perfect, I know I’m not and would never have been able to endure what these guys have endured. So thank you for what you are doing! Keep it up please as you are helping so many caught in the web get untangled and we must not forget that just because we have been untangled there are so many more that aren’t.
Thanks for the link to the video with Phil. I agree with his mini-program to reform Scientology!
Glad you manage to remain unaffected by stupidity of all stripes and soldier on. Kudos Marty
Publius, (love that name, BTW)
I am very happy to think that I helped you with my humble comment.
I know if you avail yourself of Scientology as if LRH wrote it just for you, and remove all worries that you may not be walking the same path as another Scientologist may think you should, you will find that your free theta will explode, answers will come, paths will reveal themselves and you will win like never before. You will not even have to worry about anything being lost in a shuffle. Let the shuffle get lost in its own shuffle. Let the world go mad and let every other Scientologist have their own viewpoints – it’s all good! Grant it beingness! Admire it! Then, take solace in the fact that no matter what is said (even MY words here),
it’s yours to reject or accept AT WILL.
LRH wished for OT’s in abundance on earth because it would save us from another trip into oblivion. Not IAS trophy holders or debt ridden zombies who go to marble buildings to get implanted. Go OT. Make it the adventure LRH wanted you to have. Align yourself with a good independent auditor/group that will let your havingness run loose, without limit, across your dynamics.
You will win. Boy, will you ever!
I have to give Dan Koon high marks for sharing his story a few years ago on his Clearing Course experiences, in the 70’s if I remember. Reading that story was a prime example of how he made those experiences his. No flummery. No stuck attention on how to pay the debts off after. No IAS reges to run from. No diversions. No make wrong because he didnt donate to some new off policy org fund. Just his wonderful experience and how he was forever changed by it. Dan set out on his OWN adventure and his wins were his reward.
It’s your turn.
ok, I must have made a mistake before, here we go, hope i can get it toghether again.
I recall that LRH said somewhere that the last thing we will be runnign out is Scientology. Perhaps someone knows the correct reference?
It feels like that is what we are doing just now, with the help of this website. There are many upsets mentioned and disagreements, however attacks on Marty are not the way to go.Clearely he is doing his ethics program as per his personal integrity. To me this whole excercise has the purpose of helping overcome the damage that has been done, and thus it is in a way a form of 3rd Dynamic type of auditing. In that situation comments of a nasty nature towards the person trying to audit are to be ignored. If there is a dialogue there should not have to be justifications and explenatiosn necessary.
LRH also mentions somewhere, gosh I wish where, that every solution eventually becomes a problem. Marty,s solution to the problem that he admittedly helped to create and now is making all efforts to remedy by helping others to gain understanding, exposing what is wrong, trying to point to other sources of wisdom, applying the auditing tech, are all tools to free individuals from the bondage they have been in. Scientology points the way to how, it is in the end not the end all. LRH did not suck his knowledge out of the univrse through a straw. He studied, observed, extrapulated, tested and codified a tremendous amount of data. We do not have to always agree with either Marty or LRH. Neither one of them should be on trial here for any evaluated or perceived out points. May be the old addage of sitting in a glass house comes in handy. And we really should keep our own council.
However, the reason we do participate here is to lend support and to keep attention on what needs to be remedied and corrected, keeping in mind that dictators rarely get overthrown from the inside, murdered perhaps, but not removed in an orderly fashion. Thus we have to keep up the pressure, we have to keep pinging away until the cavalry comes to lend a hand in the form of more and more disenchanted expatriates that have seen the light.
Marty, you have bared your chest, heart and soul to us, Folks will either understand or they will not. I applaud your efforts and attempts to shed light on a dark spot of corporate Scientololy history, a history being played out right now, hopefully for not much longer.
This is not what I originally wrote, but it is close enough.
There’s something I don’t quite like about it. I haven’t put my finger on it just yet. One thing is perhaps that by posting this you are 9/10ths of the way to doing the same thing arent you? If they sent you a private message why not respond privately? It seems like your intent was to defend yourself, and/or to discredit the other terminal.
The other thing might be that by not providing any specifics it serves to create sort of an op-term thing between your loyal supporters and ” ‘With Ron’ type of Independent Scientologists”, or Fundamentalist Indys- whatever labels have been attached to these mysterious, unknown people who’s identities are somehow meaningless.
If the intent was to enlighten or educate your flock I think it was overshadowed by the actual effect which is that your group now thinks “those people” are bad and have wronged you and they “have your back”. They are in agreement to be against someone or some group, but you havent given any specifics on who they should be against.
If even Windhorse/Christine is ready to fight I think I must be right.
She is ready to be against someone based on assumptions and a rumor/comment from her friend.
You can read that like ten different ways and I’m not sure of the source, but I think I get your point.
I just hate them so much though. Whoever they might be .
WhingeyBingey, nice
There was an old SNL skit I think from the 80s where the head guy at a nuclear power plant retires and his final words are “…and please remember- YOU CANT PUT TOO MUCH WATER IN THE REACTOR”.
The rest of the skit is the remaining guys arguing about what that meant until they decide democratically that it means they should drain the reactor.
Oh, well, that makes sense Marty.
Great piece as always, Marty. I have to say that when I read that an Indie was assigning you lower conditions. It struck me as hysterically funny. Interesting that they thought you should apply Confusion. LOL That’s my thought for them. They should find out Where They Are.
I loved Grasshopper’s comment about making Scientology your own. Isn’t it freedom we are after, after all.
You have been fighting the good fight, and in doing so have kept the heat off other Auditors so they can Audit in peace. As one of their PCs, I thank you. And, you have set a wonderful example of freedom of thought. To the few people giving you a hard time. How do you think Ron operated – did he restrict his research, his communication with humanity, his reason? NO. Later in life he restricted his communication and with my limited knowledge of that time period – it does seem like that was a mistake.
I really do hate that with all you have done and still do that helps all of us, that you get hit with criticism. Seems so unfair.
Blame has never been my game. And it seems to me to be a pretty low level way to operate. And in this case – out of pt too.
To those blaming – what kind of product were you hoping to get exactly? Maybe you could take a look at that.
Lastly, I just want to say that in Scientology and in Business I have always been in positions to be in comm with lots of people. And people are generally really great. A very, very small few are not. All of us have our plus points and out points. It’s a lot more fun to be in ARC and enjoy each other. And let’s face it, we all have something in common – we found Scientology and had the courage to say, ok – let’s go, and stepped onto the road to Truth. I consider all of you my friends. And that includes those of you who having walked that path for a while have chosen a different one.
There is no gain to self listing on this, Marty. No doubt you know this, but to indicate. Clearly there are SP’s that very much want to take you down. You are very vocal, very heard, very much a threat and very public. Then again, as a 10yr Reg and/or FSM, I know there are too many things we all need to own.
We do each other no justice to blame one another for this or that. And before you pass that off as no big deal, consider what you did.
There are some things I just don’t get either.
LOLz many LOLz, Thanks.
… before “any of you” pass that off … if that wasnt clear.
Wonder how many 13 year old kids were caved in up at the Int Base?
I’ve been reading this blog ever since Marty started it, and his post today is in my opinion one of his very best, because it strikes to the heart of the biggest, and really only, problem we have.
All games require opponents. But accumulating charge in the game one is playing eventually leads to getting stuck in that game, and stuck in the opp-term-ness inherent in it. Then the game becomes a service facsimile that cannot be reasoned with.
It’s amazing how much charge so many Indies have, not just on the Church, but also on their own particular viewpoint on how to be a “good Indie,” and how much they see the slightly different viewpoints of other Indies as being opposing terminals deserving of serious ethics and justice actions, including overt and covert third party. Rather than getting together as a team based on what they can agree on, they remain individuated and relatively ineffective. This plays right into OSA’s hands.
To the degree that a person feels he is being a particular self or identity that must win, he operates with a held-down 7, incapable of finding truth, which is always above the level of opposed terminals. This divides us into two groups — those who are trying to win some game they’ve created in their own minds, and those who are trying to find truth regardless of the consequences. Freedom can never come from winning against opponents, as fun as that can be. It can only come from finding truth above the level of opponents.
What was wrong with the Sea Org was that it put winning at all costs (admin and “ethics”) above helping its members to find truth (tech). This major change from the tech-oriented 60’s and early 70’s is what ruined the Church and brought Miscavige to power. And it’s what’s holding back the Indie movement today.
Quite a few Class 6, 8, and higher auditors are seriously involved in political factions within our community. They should be ashamed of themselves, because they’ve abandoned LRH’s high-toned purpose of finding truth and ARC, in favor of pursuing the low-toned mockery of that purpose by opp-terming other Indies operating from a slightly different viewpoint regarding how to go about it. The accusation of “not quite with Ron” that is bandied back and forth among the factions is exactly the same as the wogs’ obviously ridiculous “God is on our side.” And it’s a classic serv fac dramatization, because it’s “standing on principle” despite that resulting in failure to get organized and productive on the larger scale that’s actually needed. What would happen if we all rose above this aberrated nonsense and just got together as a true team instead of the current scattered one-man-bands?
Scientology changed as the decades passed. The pursuit of truth and spiritual freedom of the 60’s became replaced with the pursuit of personal power to be “successful” in wog terms. Most of today’s Indies who joined the Sea Org in their late teens and early 20’s became trained by osmosis in the idea that winning the current production game is more important than achieving spiritual liberation through seeing the truth whatever that may be. They missed the point of what Scientology actually is, while being militantly certain that they know what should be done.
Intelligence is the ability to see relative importances. We’ve got to get smarter about winning at all costs vs. letting go and thereby becoming aware of the truth. The test is simply this. If you think you will find freedom through rejecting and defeating others who have a point of view different from you own, your efforts to win in that game will only mire you deeper in slavery. The only way out of the trap is to stop resisting, grant beingness, establish ARC, and get everyone co-operating. Our game must be finding how we agree, and acting on that, rather than looking for how we disagree so we can remain “pure.”
If you disagree with any of this, re-study the Chart of Human Evaluation, no matter how high your level of auditor training. As a matter of fact, if you are highly trained, it’s more important that you restudy that Chart now, because you are in a position of leadership whether you want to be or not. The #1 most important issue is simply tone level. What’s yours? And I don’t mean only when you’re winning.
Interesting to find Stephen Mitchell’s translation of “Tao Te Ching”
referenced. I have the first issue of the translation
and the reading by the author as audio transcription.
The translation was accomplished by using a dictionary
of Chinese characters and then producing the idea of the
text into an English translation.
A very accurate translation can be found here:
http://www.chinapage.com/laotze2n.html
http://www.chinapage.com/gnl.html#01
You can read the Chinese and English texts.
Of this translation, 37. Tranquillity Line 1
transliterations is:
Dao chang wu wei, er wu bu wei
Translation:
The Way takes no action, but leaves nothing undone.
Does anyone see the fact that the being itself is the Dao
not located in space, having no time, taking no
action, producing energy by pure manifestaion
of beingness assumed, and playing these flows
against each other to a solid ridge that becomes
the observable Universe?
The Being (Dao) observes itself through its own
creations. Chaos occurs. The Being apparently
diminshes through its own consideration of not-know.
This condition brings about an erroneous knowing and the
game of having a case produced from a reactive mind.
All of this is the Game. The Being loves games
of self imposed barriers and freedoms. It enjoys
the thrill of self deception for it knows it is
a state of beingness created with a safety factor,
an escape route through which it returns to
unscathed.
Therefore, the Being takes no action, but leaves nothing undone.
Referencing those who play the “blame game”:
“Walk not into the wind they pass to make foul of the air of others
for it may momentarily destroy your sense of dignity.”
Gunner
An answer, and a really wild one, would be that, along the lines of A=A=A in Mental Miscavige Land, one of Frank Sinatra’s nicknames, along with “Old Blue Eyes” was, “Chairman Of The Board”, a term of great affection and respect. Now, DM has very blue eyes… is it possible..? Yes, yes, I know, its wild, its a really far stretch, but then, how the hell DID he come up with that squirrel title?
🙂
Marty, you are getting people to QUESTION and to THINK ABOUT???? My God!!! (or Mon Dieu if you are of the French perusasion) – What are you DOING, man???? When you should be tangling with the cur dogs nipping at the wheels of the fire engine! (forgive me, I had to include that last line, sounds like something that Johnny Cash might ironically sing about). How come your self-assigned EO wanted you to do the Confusion formula if he was assigning you Treason?
I’m reading Vance Woodwards’s “Addicted to Scientology.” Kind of a fun read, kind of a sad read though. Can Scientology GET more complex??? DMSMH started out with just a two person team. Yeah, I can understand a CS, an EO, a Qual, but ….. geez, talk about complexity and non confront. I know that LRH was an extremely hard worker, but I’m starting to think he still had too much time on his hands.
One of your best!
“Mirror, mirror on the wall,
who’s the most causative of all?”
🙂 🙂
🙂
Thanks, I needed that! 🙂 🙂
Good one!
Seems like they are stuck on the subject.
I can strongly recommend two powerful actions that helped me:
1. Reach and Withdraw
2. The Expanded Confusion process as a separate action.
🙂 🙂
Grasshopper, that is my take on it too.
Once one falls away from Native State, one creates one’s own ‘ignorance’ by Not-Knowing and starts the Wheel of Karma turning for one’s self. One is then PTS. I believe this is also what some call “Original Sin”.
So there is a basic truth there; but “Ask not for whom the bell tolls…….”
LRH also stated it as “The basic aberration is denial of self”. To whom then, is one basically PTS?
And Valkov makes +3 🙂
If you blame someone else,…There is no end to the blame.
Great quote, but loaded quote… Is there such a thing as a justified blame, a legitimate blame? Is all blame misplaced? Improper? Is all judgment improper and misplaced also? Are several standards, or is there one standard? These are tough questions. I’ve been dealing with them for years. I blame those that judge me, but I like to judge them as I think I’m more right or more holy than them. Am I? Maybe yes, maybe no, but maybe that’s not even the point. Maybe what matters is where, in which space, I spend every second..
Do I spend each breath in gratitude, or in judgment? What use am I making of the short time given to me, of the final number of breath given to me? DoI spend them judging others? Or contemplating the beauty of the creation? Which one will help humanity more? And which one will help me more, in the broadest sense of my individual destiny?
Letting go.. what an agenda. It’s common sense that letting go and holding on are not compatible… Yet letting go too much can be a frightening perspective. Much of character, personality, even worldly success are based on holding on, not on letting go. People develop a persona, a gig, and hold on to it. They are predictable. You find them as you left them. We live on a planet that travels 60K miles an hour (or a minute, I don’t remember..) and yet we spend our life holding on.. How shortsighted we can be..
And to let go? How does one, how do I let go? Easy to understand the word, superficially, hard to put it into practice..
Thank you for bringing up these salient points, so important for our life, for fulfilling our purpose..
🙂 LOL 🙂
Right on!
“There are people right here right now that still, maybe, are grieving to some degree about some incident like a marital separation or the loss of a child or something like this, that find that persistent with them, who are saying to themselves, ‘If I just could admit that I really did it.’ Or, you know ‘I really realized to a large degree that it’s my fault. (sigh)’ And it doesn’t go away. They’re trying to accept the responsibility. They’re trying to accept the blame for this incident and they didn’t do it! Somebody else did.
“Full responsibility contains the willingness to let somebody else be responsible, too.” — L. Ron Hubbard
Excerpted from the lecture The Descent of Man delivered on 5 June 1955.
Two thumbs up!
Larry, there is a big difference in pointing something out in an effort to blame and pointing something out in an effort to take responsibility – opposite ends of the spectrum. The former is a victim flow of “here’s what YOU should of done or ought to do” followed by inaction from self. The latter is a causative flow of “here is what can be observed and what’s to be done about it” followed by causative action (like, developing a whole new workable psychotherapy instead – one that could even turn a sociopath [SP] into a human being?).
All criticism is not blame, for without constructive criticism there is no progress. So, blaming Hubbard or anyone else is just an abdication of personal responsibility.
Check out the lecture, “Responsibility and Blame”. It’s a real eye opener.
Off topic and VERY stale dated, September 2012. But it has surfaced on the net:
Kay Rowe Resigns
Saturday, 01 September 2012 12:20
DECLARATION OF RESIGNATION FROM THE CHURCH OF DAVID MISCAVIGE (DM)
Kay Milasinovich Rowe — alias Cara Voca and Dee Harmon
R-Factor: I re-did my Doubt formula due to having confronted that I had not come to terms with some things, particularly, “that I can use the established/standard lines in the Church under DM to a get injustices, out-tech and off-policy activities corrected “because things have been changing for the better over the past couple of years” and the only reason I was not getting agreement on this point of view was that “those who left were not up to date”.
I am happy to announce that with the help of my trusted friends, particularly Tony, Mike, Betsy, Lisa, Scott and Janela, reading/watching of many posts on Marty’s, David’s and Steve’s Blogs, reading Amy Scobee’s Book and last but not least, and most important, re-study of applicable LRH references, my Confront of Evil has come way up and I now know with full certainty that change is not possible in the least with DM at the helm and that any apparent change is a ruse. He is a Squirrel Administrator with no faintest concept of taking responsibility for his countless destructive actions. To even think that he will change is a waste of time.
I also met/talked with OSA terminals to get my questions answered only to find their data very weak on the few they did answer. When I pointed this out in my initial Doubt Announcement, the DSA SFO tried to blow me off with threats that I am “walking a thin line” intimating that I will be declared an SP, as well as stating that my questions were “weird”. I finally had to break down and agree to another meeting, but I made it clear that I would only do so if my questions would indeed be answered. These were things I absolutely needed to know in order to do a standard Doubt formula, such as “what is the status of at least 15 notable International Church Executives”, “what of the International Management Structure and the Eval Corps”, “when was the last time Organization Evaluations were done” and last but not least, “what are the cold, hard statistics, aside from property acquisitions.”
I persisted in my quest all the while making it very clear that there was no way I would be blown off this track having directly experienced much of what I had been reading about, but could not get confirmation that the data I was asking for would be given to me.
Finally, when it appeared I would meet with the DSA SFO to achieve this, he was not able to meet but referred me to a site (truthbetold.com) to help me with my concerns in the meantime. However, the site was loaded with outpoints, which I expressed in an e-mail to him:
“Hello Jeff,
Just wanted to get back to you having now read the postings on the site you gave me the link for.
I am going to be very blunt with you, nothing personal, here’s my take…
1. My questions are being side-stepped intentionally. I am being strung along as much as possible to avoid having to confront these questions in hopes I will do something rash that warrants an SP declare thus making the answers a mute point.
2. Several of the postings are out-pointy…
a. The one from Karen Dippel, who I personally know, paid a Freeloader debt after having served 23 years in the Sea Org?!?!! You must be joking!!
b. The one from Luke Catton, who I also personally know and just so happened to have his contact data. Well I talked to him and he told me the story of how he came to write a posting under duress- threat of instant, verbal declare, which meant he would be cut off from his family by forced disconnection. Further his initial posting was edited as Kathy and Marian didn’t approve it. And lastly, it was not supposed to have his real name on it.
Which leads me to…
c. Luke told me there is another one that is false on the same site from Lana Mitchell.
3. The character assassination reference goes both ways my friend. A lot of mud slinging on Marty, Mike, Haydn, David and Steve. Interesting how the most vocal “Independents” were selected out.
We seem to be at an Impasse.
So, at this stage I think it is safe for me to assume that I will never get my questions answered and will also never get my petition to COB for an International Amnesty approved.
Over to you for final judgment.
L, Kay Rowe”
More things happened in between then and now, no need to bore you with the details. Suffice it to say, it had been very cleverly worked out to avoid ever answering my questions.
That said, the bottom line is this: I am disconnecting from the Church of DM and going to be an On-Source Scientologist, connected to and supporting my friends who are of like mind no matter the hardships or consequences.
I will do everything in my power to expose the SP Acts of DM and will not cease until he is brought to justice.
This is true,
Kay Milasinovich Rowe
I went over to truthbetold.com and could not find this false report on Marty mentioned above, or anything else Scientology.
Jan, agreed! Marty provides a blog where we can talk about anything, but most importantly it is a place for people to discuss the philosophy of Scientology, ask questions, learn about LRH ‘insider’ stories, and feel a sense of 3d. As I’m sure you know, you really can’t question Scientology within Scientology. I don’t know who the people are that are being critical, but it doesn’t matter. Let them whine. Its just air.
You are exactly on the money. The church has ‘pulled in’, if you will, tons of bad press, legal actions, and really Ron pulled in being a person of interest before starting Scientology and certainly during and after he left. There has always been a double standard at work here. The church cries ‘we are attacked and we have done nothing wrong…religious persecution from SPs! The church has always played victim. They get attacked because they are the only good thing out there. If you attacked, it is your fault..you are out ethics…evil intentioned… down stat.
Good Post! I like the blame / train rhyme. DON’T BLAME: TRAIN haha.
The last line is not something you hear anymore: Always deliver what you promise! Impossible for the church for many reasons.
Spiceyspaghetti, Your English does not suck. By the way, off topic, can you tell me if there is a school that specializes in teaching English to Italians or others? Is there much need for one?
Hahahahahahahahah. Thanks for that one! I loved the Stooges when I was a kid…gave my brother a bloody nose by playing MO. Well, he said he was Larry and the other one was Curly, so somebody had to be MO. My bro pulled it in, see…it was an accident, see…I was little, see…
From SHADES OF NIGHT
(PDC 21)
“So when you look this picture over you’ll find out that studying spheres of knowledge, quite allowable, as long as those spheres are then not used as control factors, on the rest of the group. Get that one, just as long as they are not then used as control factors on the rest of the group.
That big long knife which you see gleaming slightly behind my back is one which I am going to sink straight through the whole cult of, “The reason I am important is because I am an authority. And I can stay important”.
“Now that… that operation winds up in disaster! Fortunately it winds up in disaster for all hands – including the authority.”
I remember you from the old SFOD Super Course days when you and Maureen T would be cracking jokes off in a corner.
Hi Terril,
Thanks for your post. I made it through about 6 mins of that. Poor guy. He needs a session.
I was going to say a bunch of other thoughts but… I thought it just best I grant him beingness and let him say what he will.
After all I do enjoy that privilege myself.
Cece
Yes! Thanks Les. Cece
Hey Wendy, glad you are “letting go” and working this out. But as someone recently told me it’s okay to ask for help. Even if that help is a chat and coffee 😉
It’s even simpler than that Michael.
They are not themselves.
The most important person in the world is the one in front of you. And sometimes you need to stand in front of a mirror. Sadly some only ever stand in front of a very old, cracked and warped mirror.
Happy Happy birthday Martin and thanks for all the thoughts you brought to the table this year.
Cece
I blame drugs for the state scientology is in today .
Powerful drugs such as caffeine in tea and coffee which dull the perceptions of people who take them regularly .
I have seen scientologists using those powerful drugs regularly and also encouraging other scientologists to drink caffeinated tea and coffee .
Thank you, Les. The strength and sanity of this group comes from those like you who “Do”. You have a great knack to find that LRH quote that sheds just the right amount of light on the party.
Ed
Yep. Fanatics can never think for themselves. I did not even bring up the issue of Co$ followers “assigning” conditions to each other. This is the ultimate in make-wrong / evaluation / invalidation. That somehow Marty is in a lower condition because of the crimes of dm is an idea that deserves nothing, but ridicule. Yet it is ingrained in Scientologist because of one misunderstood sentence in the book ISE.
I remember in the old days an overt was a DONE. We would accept nothing else. That was of course, when disclosed overts stayed in the folder where they belonged. Before you got sent to the MAA because you drunk green tea yesterday, something like that.
Hear,Hear!
Exactly !!! Well described, Grasshopper.
Lets not get into the same mode as these two. They do it because they still did not get rid of the implant. If I could get a hold of them, I would audit the implant out of them. Then you would find out that these beings do not at all believe in the accusations they leveled at Marty. It is just case.
Indeed.
Sam, you were the first person to congratulate me on getting my head straight. Marty was the first person to remind me of what I knew all along. My life is better for having known both of you.
Ed
Marty and Mike are perhaps, not going to “fix” it, but they have done a lot to reduce it. Because of them Co$ is now known as the evil that it is. New people are not coming. They are shrinking. In other words, Co$ is disappearing.
As for dm, I truly believe he will end up in jail. What M&M are doing is making it so that when the time comes, nobody will be willing to grant him asylum.
That is perfect George! I absolutely love it!
Mark, true. But thanks to ESPN America and Sweden’s interest in American football, I do not feel totally deprived!
Bravo Maria,
I indeed find out that the PTS tech was the beginning of the downfall of Scientology. It turned the Church from a friendly place to a paranoid vindictive group.
The statement “Any disease … Is suppression” is categorically false. We find many reasons, physical and mental, why people get sick. For example look at HCOB “The Red Tag Line”
You can also look at the cycle of life; bodies die. Nobody dies of old age. It is always an illness. So it is a certainty: it does not matter how PTS or not PTS you are, you body will get sick and die.
You somehow manage to convey the message while being funny.
Carol,
You are right about the blame. Each time someone got declared all sorts of “down stats” where blamed on the person. In retrospect, I guess blaming “SP’s” like you and me gives all the sheeple an explanation as to why it’s always the same people at the fund raisers.
1. “Most former members seem to keep some part of the auditing tech but lose the ethics when they leave the cult…”
That’s far to broad a sweeping generality for me to consider a it to be a valid reflection of the scene and I disagree completely.
2. “I think that’s healthier for them”
How would ‘losing ethics’ be ‘healthier’ for anyone?
3.” This guy apparently wants to keep everything going – auditing and ethics”
Because… You need to throw one out for the other?
4.” I’m surprised he made the jump from the cult at all, but maybe that wasn’t under his control”.
What the hell does that MEAN????
I’m sorry – I find your post really confusing.
Or am I missing something?
Les, you are wise, philosophica and very practical all in one. Joy to observe!
Hemi
Larry, there is a big difference in pointing something out in an effort to blame and pointing something out in an effort to take responsibility – opposite ends of the spectrum. The former is a victim flow of “here’s what YOU should of done or ought to do” followed by inaction from self. The latter is a causative flow of “here is what can be observed and what’s to be done about it” followed by causative action (like, developing a whole new workable psychotherapy instead – one that could even turn a sociopath [SP] into a human being?).
All criticism is not blame, for without constructive criticism there is no progress. So, blaming Hubbard or anyone else is just an abdication of personal responsibility.
See the lecture “Responsibility and Blame”. It’s a real eye opener.
The blame game is so all pervasive it takes quite a bit of “step-back” to really get it.
It extends to blaming ones behavior on a lack of scientology training. Positing that with the needed training, certainty would evolve and therefore one would bare his breast to the beast and yell … NO I will NOT commit such a heinous act as I was ORDERED to do (by none other than dm via Marty (uber bad hat that he remains to THIS day) …
Seriously? One commits actions that he doesn’t feel good about BECAUSE he wasn’t properly trained.
It’s not even a logical argument. Both people removed from their posts were highly trained who according to the premise (lack of training causes one to do things against ones better judgment) could have and should have stood up for themselves. IF one is following this argument of training causes one to be certain and thus not do harmful actions. (from a recent story on another blog)
Scientology history is being reinvented and what is coming out is rather than being responsible for our own lives (which IS NOT THE SAME AS BLAME) we can now blame our NOTS cases (which according to one uber-indy is responsible for every non optimum action), lack of “standard” scientology training, group think, the moon, the weather and anything EXCEPT oneself.
I’ve said it before and will continue to say it again —
People don’t leave the SO because it’s so bad, they don’t leave scientology because it’s gone off the rails, they don’t leave this blog because it’s not with LRH — they leave BECAUSE what was “workin’ for them personally” no longer is.
Needless to say — the above opinion is mine and not the opinion of the sponsors —
But it’s fact 🙂
(in my world)
Love,
Christine
PS — JUST ME — love your always dry wit —
Exactly. I heard that some OT in the LA area said that the “Church is under attack”. Same question – what did it do to pull this in?
If someone sees the lies and illusions and sees his true nature and is just himself then he would never blame and fight anymore because he knows how senseless it is to fight himself. Instead he could truely love the other beings.
We are all on the same way to be free, bodhi, … whatever you want to call it.
Everyone who blames just shows his lack of knowledge about his true nature.
I think its great to find a lot different viepoints and opinions here on Martys blog (thanks Marty! 🙂 ) and people who try to find the ultimate truth and return to their true nature. No matter what technique works for them the best. IMHO …..
I still recommend the published ‘a new English version’ by Mitchell that the quoted text above is not from. I’ve read dozens of translations since the time I was 14 years old and the one I reference I think is the truest to the truth of it.
Thanks Graduated.
First, I don’t have a group. Second, apparently you are engaging in the very activity this post is attempting to teach about, blame. I cut it off for the reasons stated, which I’ll repeat once more to you: Who is meaningless – only a terminal upon whom to afix blame. Don’t miss the moon for the finger pointing at it. If you persist, I’ll cut you off too. If I were trying to discredit I’d be kicking ass and naming names.
OM, me too. But I had to cut off the rest of your comment here. Please see how I responded to Chrisman9. To go there is to play the same game and detracts from the lesson we seem to be teaching one another on this thread.
OM, I edited your comment here. I am not going to go there. Please see my message to Chrisman9. I don’t want to detract from what we’re doing here by diverting attenton ‘over there.’
Like others, what I find most shocking is this line: ‘You are not getting people to do, you are getting people to question and think about.’
Congratulations on getting people to question and to think about their condition. Your posts do a nice job of that lately on this blog, in my opinion!
“Doing” without “questioning” or “thinking about it” is kind of a hallmark of how things are done in the Church, no?
I hope that the person who sent you this has the time to reach this conclusion. I wish them well.
I can attest that Marty is completely unwilling and WONT name names. Although it was very unbuddhist of me – try as I might when I was visiting with Marty and Mosey to engage in over the fence name calling – he would cut it to the quick. I figured it out FAST he wasn’t even going to go there. AT ALL.
To Chris Mann — please don’t ever base an opinion of rightness and wrongness by me. I’m just a human being – fraught with plenty of buttons and often wrong headed way of looking at things. I am just trying to do my best every day. Which I’m sure you are too.
It is interesting to read Jenna Miscavige Hill book “Beyond
Belief” and look at her encounters with Marty and DM. In
the beginning of the book it looks like DM is a real “mensch”
and treats her like a good uncle should but then towards
the end DM’s manipulative evil actions really rears up its
ugly head.
On the other hand Marty’s actions related to her has a constant
undertone of the enforcer who very reluctanty and against his
better judgement has to carry out the orders from DM.
You could then say; “well he did it” but I would then counter;
“you have not been in the SO under DM’s regime, have you?”.
Actually not even been on staff or been a public during these
turbulent years as Miscavige’s evil rule has filtered down to all
Scientologists.
We finally have a forum that will help us to straighten out our
time track, see our shortcomings, our wins, our responsibilities
etc. with the church and LRH and for that I am very thankful
to Marty, Mosey, Mike, Steve, Karen, Jim Logan (where is he
recently anyway?), Tom Martiniano et al. There are as many
viewpoints as there are people on this planet but we got to
progress towards betterment on all our dynamics and what
APPROXIMATES that is the road we have to travel.
Marty said:
“I was also accused of ‘You are not getting people to do, you are getting people to question and think about.”
Exactly that is why Scientologists will do well by acquainting themselves with the Tao.
We need to relax for a minute and take a long hard look at all things Scientology, instead of keep marching forward like automatons with the command to clear the planet.
I think we can all safely conclude that things have not gone well with Scientology?
Maybe the orthodox Scientology model and approach is not really what people need or desire after all?
Maybe we should put ourselves and Scientology in a more realistic spiritual context, before keep shoving it down people faces?
Maybe we should find out how our collective thoughts become derailed, before attempting to arrogantly minister to people?
Must we all continue to be eager beaver Scientologists, without self awareness ,creating the same repugnant construct again?
Just food for thought.
Karen#1,
Wow!
COS$ is like a cow kicking over its own milk bucket.
With so much blame, there is no gain.
George M. White
Christmann9, I wish Marty had posted the whole ethics order. The power of the internet is defanging the fascististic aspect of ethics assignment.
These ethics assignments in the hands of the unenlighted are dangerous.
Reveal away Marty, it’s only free speech which is at stake. Blast this puppy wide open. Then maybe people can see some of the positive side of Scientology. Until then, these evil practices need to be shackled in the public square for all to see.
Again, in response to Marty’s request: “Yet, I ask you to examine the matter for yourself and see whether there are not other conditionings added to the mix along the route that make that realization in practice short-lived.”
I think there are conditionings BEFORE the route. Conditionings that are in the very woof and warp of Western society. They are well described by Alan Watts in his treatise, “The Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are,” and succinctly summarized in Chapter 3 – How to be a Genuine Fake.
Note: it is important to be aware that Alan is NOT using the definition of soul as a thetan. He is using the traditional definition of soul, quite different from thetan. Also he is not talking about the characteristics of the disembodied state of spirit, he is talking the involved and immanent states we find ourselves participating in as “human beings” in a civilization we call society.
This particular segment of the book is 12 minutes long. If you can take the time to listen to it, and perhaps the remainder of the book, I think it will be worth your while! To my mind, it is an early conditioning that has to be considered — for it inevitably distorts any later conditioning as an underlying problem.
Here are some key excerpts from the book & audio:
In one form or another, the myth of the Fully Automatic Model has become extremely plausible, and in some scientific and academic disciplines it is as much a sacrosanct dogma as any theological doctrine of the past—despite contrary trends in physics and biology. For there are fashions in myth, and the world-conquering West of the nineteenth century needed a philosophy of life in which realpolitik—victory for the
tough people who face the bleak facts—was the guiding principle.
[…]
It is doubtful whether Western science and technology would have been possible unless we had tried to understand nature in terms of mechanical models.
… the soul is not in the body, but the body in the soul, and the soul is the entire network of relationships and processes which make up your environment, and apart from which you are nothing.
[…]
But as things are, we define (and so come to feel) the individual in the light of our narrowed “spotlight” consciousness which largely ignores the field or environment in which he is found. “Individual” is the Latin form of the Greek “atom”—that which cannot be cut or divided any further into separate parts. We cannot chop off a person’s head or remove his heart without killing him. But we can kill him just as effectively by separating him from his proper environment.
[…]
Head, neck, heart, lungs, brain, veins, muscles, and glands are
separate names but not separate events, and these events grow into being simultaneously and interdependently. In precisely the same way, the individual is separate from his universal environment only in name. When this is not recognized, you have been fooled by your name. Confusing names with nature, you come to believe that having a separate name makes you a separate being. This is—rather literally—to be spellbound.
[…]
The child is tricked into the ego-feeling by the attitudes, words, and actions of the society which surrounds him—his parents, relatives, teachers, and, above all, his similarly hoodwinked peers. Other people teach us who we are. Their attitudes to us are the mirror in which we learn to see ourselves, but the mirror is distorted. We are, perhaps, rather dimly aware of the immense power of our social environmnent.
[…]
Our social environment has this power just because we do not exist apart from a society. Society is our extended mind and body.
[…]
Society, as we now have it, pulls this trick on every child from
earliest infancy. In the first place, the child is taught that he is responsible, that he is a free agent, an independent origin of thoughts and actions—a sort of miniature First Cause. He accepts this makebelieve for the very reason that it is not true. He can’t help accepting it, just as he can’t help accepting membership in the community where he was born. He has no way of resisting this kind of social indoctrination.
[…]
It is constantly reinforced with rewards and punishments. It is built into the basic structure of the language he is learning. It is rubbed in repeatedly with such remarks as, “It isn’t like you to do a thing like that.” Or, “Don’t be a copy-cat; be yourself!” Or, when one child imitates the mannerisms of another child whom he admires, “Johnny, that’s not you. That’s Peter!” The innocent victim of this indoctrination cannot understand the paradox. He is being told that he must be free. An irresistible pressure is being put on him to make him believe that no such pressure exists. The community of which he is necessarily a dependent member defines him as an independent member.
A double-bind game is a game with self-contradictory rules, a game
doomed to perpetual self-frustration — like trying to invent a perpetual motion machine in terms of Newtonian mechanics, or trying to trisect any given angle with a straight edge and compass. The social double-bind game can be phrased in several ways:
1. The first rule of this game is that it is not a game.
2. Everyone must play.
3. You must love us.
4. You must go on living.
5. Be yourself, but play a consistent and acceptable role.
6. Control yourself and be natural.
7. Try to be sincere
[…]
In times past, recognition of the impermanence of the world usually
led to withdrawal. On the one hand, ascetics, monks, and hermits tried to exorcise their desires so as to regard the world with benign resignation, or to draw back and back into the depths of consciousness to become one with the Self in its unmanifest state of eternal serenity.
On the other hand, others felt that the world was a state of probation where material goods were to be used in a spirit of stewardship, as loans from the Almighty, and where the main work of life is loving devotion
to God and to man.
Yet both these responses are based on the initial supposition that the individual is the separate ego, and because this supposition is the work of a double-bind any task undertaken on this basis—including religion—will be self-defeating. Just because it is a hoax from the beginning, the personal ego can make only a phony response to life. For the world is an ever-elusive and ever-disappointing mirage only from the standpoint of someone standing aside from it—as if it were quite other than himself—and then trying to grasp it. Without birth and death, and without the perpetual transmutation of all forms of life, the world would be static, rhythmless, undancing, mummified.
But a third response is possible. Not withdrawal, not stewardship on the hypothesis of a future reward, but the fullest collaboration with the world as a harmonious system of contained conflicts—based on the realization that the only real “I” is the whole endless process.
Here is a link to the book as a PDF:
Click to access Book%20On%20The%20Taboo%20Against%20Knowing%20Who%20You%20Are.pdf
Enjoy!
If I might add an observation I believe is true: the difference between 1D or personal ethics and others is elicitation of the careful thought of self-determinism as opposed to adherence to agreements. The above topic is a 3D ethics thing, like showing up to work in a suit and tie. Scientology is an elicitation, principally, with a 3D aspect to coordinate a group – one doesn’t have a coordination of activities without some agreement such as daytime, nightime, paychecks, etc., but most of it is voluntary. Morals in a society are similar, and easy to follow, however deep their philosophical roots, as is the case in the USA. When you have to enforce an agreement you really are talking about disagreements. When you have fully developed 1D ethics in place – which would be nothing short of a spectacular achievement in the spheres of Scientology – I’d be willing to bet no one will try to tell you what you “should do” more than once. But full 1D ethics is a very high level of responsibility.
Seriously? was my first word.
Then “do we have to go there again”for God’s sake?The misuse of ethics tech for the glorification of some self righteous, know it all …person…
Then ,Lets look at the 3rd party law.
But I am still pissed and go back to “seriously???
I could not agree more! Brilliantly presented.
Ironically, Scientology technology sanely applied – sans the conditioning additives – is, in my opinion, the most sure and effective means of undoing all of that conditioning Watts speaks of.
There is increasing scientific research suggesting a direct link between our mental/emotional state and our immune system (google psychoneuroimmunology, for example). LRH’s early theories regarding the state of Clear, as well as those later linking illness to suppression, are evidence to me that he could sniff something there. If he had held true to his own logic as opposed to going all labelly and absolute on everyone’s ass then he might have come up with something more accurate/useful than what he settled with: 1) a finite cleared state with very specific immunities and 2) every single illness stems from a connection to a “sociopath”.
Mike AND Marty,
Spot on communications once again. Thank you.
Mike, you call em Winerperson… I call em Turds In The Pool.
You both, Amy, Matt, Sinar, Lovely Lori, our Man Ray, Lovely Christie, Sinar, Lovely Sam, Jimbo, Lovely Karen, Jeff, Steve, T & Lovely Jamie, etc…. Have done more for Scientology Inc and Miscavige for that matter in just a few years time from the comforts of your homes it is humoursly entertaining; with out the use of PI’s, cameras or money taken out of the pockets of good people.
I’m guessing these turds don’t jive on the fact that Abortions in the Sea Org have been effectively stopped, people in The Hole, although still IN The Hole, are no longer being physically beaten and even Dave’s own father has been relieved of daily misery.
All brought about thru the work of those and others not listed above.
Geeze, Childs and Tobin are to be prominently included!!
Thanks Marty for grabbing the net and scooping these turds out.
— Jackson
Thanks Brian,
Two weeks ago I passed the eye exam for my Florida driver’s license
with a perfect score. As a result, the restriction for glasses was
removed. I spent 17 years in scientology with serious vision
problems. After twelve years of meditation, I am happy to report
that at the age of 67 my vision is now better than 20/20.
George M. White
Ditto Marty. Please continue what you are doing and ignore the yapping dogs. It would be nice if more “well-healed” Indies would share more of their wealth with you so as to make it easier for you to continue. On another point, I am assuming, as was the case with Hitler, that there are those in DM’s circle of underlings who are plotting for the overthrow of the tiny Thetan. Else, one could contemplate (accompanied by many postulates), for someone in their mid-50s, that his accumulated O/Ws would eventually squish the little turd such that he would become a stain on the ground.
Actually OM, she just released a letter a couple of days ago about dropping Scientology altogether..here is an excerpt she wrote:
To whom it may concern,
My name is Kay Rowe aka Kay Milasinovich Rowe.
Please see my new blog for an update on my stance with regard to Scientology- kayrowe1.wordpress.com, particularly the article” My New Life- Living Life to the Fullest” (below). Note: You have my permission to post this article.
For all intents and purposes I am no longer a Scientologist. Been there, done that, time to move on. I am getting on with my new life with no connection to the subject.
Absolutely!
Unfortunately, the earlier false conditioning, coupled with conditionings that probably find their source in those, can inhibit full integration and growth and cut one off from learning new and better ways of conducting oneself. These conditionings, when they remain uninspected, act as a set of core, limiting beliefs that can continue to be acted on and wind one back up in the soup! I think that is what happens to many people who had terrific gains from auditing, only to find themselves in perplexing and paradoxical situations in groups and the society at large.
I think you have to do false data stripping, as an ongoing critical function and not just as something you do AFTER you are in trouble. That false data stripping process must include information taught by LRH, especially since we have had the benefit of seeing the consequences of many of the concepts he thought were valid. Eg. Could he have forseen the current state of the Church — I doubt it. He did not have the benefit of a true multiple viewpoint system and he fell into his own trap of uninspected false perceptions.
Jump shift Dan — what are the 49ers going to do for a backup QB? The Seahawks are keeping their overpaid backup — but he is good one. Now that I no longer receive a gazillion phone calls to confirm me for events or to buy the Basics for libraries in Tanzania, etc. I have much more time to follow America’s favorite sport — the NFL Draft is in a month eh? Lastly, how do like living in Sweden?
Ok, fine.
I looked this over and I’ve got another take:
I think this is about groups. You don’t assign conditions to a friend. That is something done in groups, usually by a senior or someone who has that power in the group.
That got me thinking about my own experiences. I realized that every once in a while I place someone on my “Org Board”, assign them a hat and expect products which is ok I guess, but the problem is I never asked them to join my group, there wasn’t really a group there, I didn’t inform them of their hat or ask them if they wanted it. As you might assume- I am always disappointed when I do this. I can probably think of a lot of examples, minor and major.
There really has to be a group for this kind of stuff to work. If you are not paying someone to work for you or have some sort of strong mutual agreement to be part of a proper group with it’s admin scale all worked out then it’s a mistake to do this. Maybe you can get away with it if you are married or close friends, but there is that bond there.
Speaking for myself, I did do this to you I guess. I said “OK, cool, Marty is going to wear this hat and I don’t have to worry about that area”. I got you an office, painted and furnished it with a nice desk (not one of those cheap Office Depot desks- a nice solid wood one), I hung stat graphs, got you a three basket system and did up the whole thing.
I may have forgotten to send you the memo on that one.
There is some LRH I can’t recall where, he is talking about groups. That sometimes a group will just start to form and if you don’t handle it right it can bite you.
Take something like Julian Assange- he did his thing and there were people who agreed with his actions, so I assume a group formed around him to forward those objectives. There is probably some sort of organization around him now- legal support and whatnot. Without that support I assume he would be in prison, dead, “disappeared”, or silenced in some way. He personally may not have formed a group, but I bet it’s there. If he had said “fuck you guys, there is no group”, I assume he would have some people upset at him and some trying to force him into the non-existent group.
Your blog is just your blog where you write your opinions and it seems like you have defined your hat as an author and auditor and you act as a (unpaid) consultant to people having legal problems with the Church. I think if an “obnosis” and an acceptance of what is there was done everyone could just move on and do their thing without all the “blame“ and inevitable disappointment in trying to force someone to wear a hat they have not accepted.
I don’t think it would be good to name names. My thought was that it would be better to not publish, or second best to publish with specifics, and third best option being to post without specifics, only because it leads to speculation.
…or squeals like a pig, what was that? “The Deliverace”, I think.
I actually thought of it as a sort of compliment. If pan-determined Christine is getting sucked into speculation and rumors then the rest of us are in trouble.
I don’t think it’s evil. It’s just a natural thing that is there whether you codify it and write it on paper or not. It can and has been much mis-used in the Church of Miscavige.
I think it’s something more fitting to groups. On a personal level there are other ways of handling these things. You can help people or talk to them, show them the conditions etc. For example- a friend loses his job and you pull out some references and help him sort out his condition and move forward. Their willingness is prerequisite.
I think there was an assumption of a group here that was incorrect.
of ha
A great lesson to learn here, IMO, is that we are all part of the human species, plus, (but I’m talking about the 4th). We were attracted to Scientology for the idea and fulfillment of expanding our consciousness and thereby improving the human species, ie becoming New by throwing off the Old garbage surrounding our Mind and Waking Up. At least that’s how I came to be attracted.
Each came in with their own garbage pail. We were told we were not to have case on post or manifest case in order to get the job done. The “no case” idea was a great one, but was it any more feasable than the great idea that we could all be OTs and ended up with most of us actually engaged in glowing the world right? Or the absolute idea that Clear meant you were cleared of all that garbage, even if you were still a cannibal? Well, get trained. There’s the answer to the Cleared cannibal, right? So then what is it when you’re training and you still are not showing Godhood to the level expected? The whole body of materials was designed to explain away and excuse all of that. No?
We were to show others, be the living role model, that we were really rising above that garbage and more importantly to use that lack of showing/having case as a yardstick for ourselves to see the progress we made. Or not. Problem is that appeared to be more of a not-ising or ideal scene, and I always likened it to “fake it til you make it”, and I’ll be damned if that wasn’t what was happening for too many folks. No wonder disillusionment became part of the game for some, and frustration to the point of feeling trapped for especially SO personnel. You were surrounded by those who couldn’t talk about any of what they were experiencing. You each were alone with only an MAA , and that MAA was trained to see it all one way too.
MUs? Was it MUs or was it “us” trying to fit a piece of wood into a shape that just didn’t match ? But the whole thing was a great idea. How feasable was that idea? I think we are seeing the answer to that question no different than an Exec being given orders that are Unreal and yet expecting them to be filled. Miracles do happen. Yes, those orders of “no case” and filling orders like get the number of all law enforcement personnel in Los Angeles matched with VMs. You “could” do that. But how feasable is it? Oh, you have CI. No, you just have some whack jobs expecting you to play someone’s idea that “you” can and should do what he/she “can’t” do themself. IMO always, based off my own personal observation 🙂
Karen, your story really hits home! It was crazy! And the craziness was perpetutated by those given positions of Power over others. I can’t help but think they became overwhelmed with the responsibility of making an “idea” come to fruition that had some flaws in it.
But the good news is each one of us is capable of ensuring we don’t just glibly grab onto anything in Scientology materials without actually inspecting it “Honestly.” In that way we can avoid and prevent the kind of situation we now have that led to mass departures. OR we could decide that Scientology does NOT have a monopoly on growing, expanding, and improving ourselves and get a bigger Reach on Life by eliminating the restriction to “only Scientology” can do something, and rather incorporate what us workable in Scientology with what is workable elsewhere. ” I ” like that idea. 🙂
Thanks so much for writing your post Karen. I wanted to add my own take on it as it was an appropriate opportunity.
“Seems this 3rd dynamic charge is impossible to fully as-is”.
Um… It may seem that way now.
I can assure you, without any reservation, that is very much possible.
But you right about this being a matter that extends far earlier than 1980.
I can say this because I personally have “as-is’d it” (not how I would put it though, but for the sake of semantics I’ll stick with that phrase).
I’ve mentioned this before on this blog. The Scientology “story” is relevant to far more than those who are, or were, scientologists.
It’s a human story, or riddle even, and getting to the bottom of it can be very enlightening and helpful to one’s soul.
And, god willing, enlightening and helpful to all of us (all 6 billion or whatever we’re at now).
😊
Um… Chris… I hear you and I feel you. On this comment and your others.
At the risk of offending you (and trust me that is the last thing I “want” to do) I’m going to repeat myself.
“The enemy is always in the mind”
Here’s another.
“It is no business of mine what you think of me”
And finally…
“No one is to blame, they may be guilty, but they are not to blame”
These are all quotes from human beings, just like you and me, who have lived, learned and found enough truth on their respective journeys to be at peace with themselves and their life.
I wish you all the very best on yours my friend. Perhaps, and again I mean no offence, it may be beneficial to take a break every now and then with regard to “fixing” Scientology.
And by all means please ceremoniously through out the window anything I’ve said here that doesn’t ring true.
Best,
Chris
Or… Get rid of blame altogether?
By that I mean.
1. Don’t blame.
2. Don’t accept blame.
3. Don’t condone blame.
4. Don’t blame.
😊
Hello Michael.
Miss you brother.
Brilliant.
😂
And that is the only thing one need concern themselves with.
Lot of love here.
Very, very nice to bear witness to.
😊
Brilliant.
I hope you are willing to, and have time to, check out Brene Brown’s research on blame.
The dictionary definition does not even scratch the surface (well, in terms of the philosophical and psychology aspect of what blame is).
I think you would enjoy the journey if you can.
But thank you for your comment. It is very insightful.
😊
good for you george, keep being mindful,and continue enjoying life.
Crystal clear…😊
great points chris, well said, i agree,be the change you want to see in the world, and more people need to get a life outside of this game.
Carcha
Yes, thank you.
You state…” the difference between 1D or personal ethics and others is elicitation of the careful thought of self-determinism as opposed to adherence to agreements.”
What I would offer on that one is that as soon as one moves out from the first dynamic, Pan-determinism comes into play. The same “elicitation of careful thought” should take place, but from a pan-determined, rather that from a self-determined viewpoint. “Adherence to agreements” is necessary in the smooth running of the first four dynamics, but it is, of course, best done with understanding rather than with force – ethics, rather than justice.
Eric S
As Jeff Hawkins said over and over again.
Dig deeper.
What you find may just be worth the trouble.
And for some it may be crucial to their finding the peace we all deserve.
Interesting concept, ‘fix Scientology.’ I think you know that it is futile attempting to ‘fix Scientology’ unless and until one has trascended it, right? That is, continued adherence to it, by its own laws, requires that you not even allow the thought of fixing it to enter your mind. That is why the continual maunderings, closely and religiously adhering to quotations from Scientology, by some will never fix it. That is why, quite frankly, I feel for these guys declaring me and assigning me conditions. They are starting the whole house of mirrors up again, same business at a different stand.
I think active Scientology ethics is defined by how it’s used, and that is as punishment. Former Scientology ethics seems to be also intended as punishment, but usually without any real consequences. Marty doesn’t care what condition this guy assigns, because he can just ignore it without being RPF’d. Some former members do have KRC over another, like the sad case of Koos Nolst Trenite, who declared everybody he could think of and eventually assigned his daughter 0.0 if you know what I mean.
I think losing ethics is a healthy thing, because we’re talking about a system of punishment, not the broad meaning of ethics that non-Scn society has. I have seen former members who drop the ethics system of Scn and keep the processing, but I have never seen a former member who kept the ethics system but dropped the processing. Point 4 means that sometimes people get declared and would like to go back, but for one reason or another don’t. For example, they may be unwilling to disconnect with an unrepentant spouse or child.
I hope this clarifies things.
Chris — appreciate the compliment but trust me — I dove into this based on my own opinions fueled by my own buttons.
🙂
I recommend you listen carefully to an LRH lecture entitled ‘Marriage’, from the State of Man congress. Read the last page of the transcript first. Then listen to the tape. For the love of God, I don’t know why people seem to not-is, forget, or not get that last point he makes in the last page of the transcript. In short it is, all of what he said in that tape about the 2nd dynamic not existing beyond its creation through agreement also applies to any third dynamic (group). Think it through. It’s done wonders for my second dynamic, and helpeda lot of work I am fairly optimistic will ultimately (and hopefully, though not publicly that apparent given all the crabs-in-the-barrel noise of late, happened and is happening to some extent in the past and present) pay dividends to that ‘group’ encompassing ‘former members of the church of Scientology.’
Phil recieved an honarary class XIII from LRH for a checksheet to do
book 1. In 13 years of connecting people up, he is only one of two
people who had their PC say ” best auditor in the world”, at least as reported to me. He is class VIII, his wife is classVIII, his daughter is class VIII. He started the first or one of the first Franchises.
I’ll let him know he can reach you for advice and that you allow
him the benefit of free speech.
Hey Mantis – a great belly laugh and a gulp of something zesty sounds like an excellent idea. The work pressure should ease soon – I will give you a call. Thanks for caring (but also don’t worry about me – you know half my problem is my own short fuse. I’ll get it right one day 😉 ).
“a welcome addiction”. Addiction?! Well, there’s some truth in advertising. But seriously, OTVIII, what are you doing here?
It’s bad enough to know you in the RTC frequent Ortega’s blog, with the jokers and degraders, bitter defrocked apostates, evil psychs, and outright psychotics. But this blog is home to the ultimate squirrels! Wasn’t that the point of the noble squad of heroes sent by you in RTC to “bust” these activities?
I am deeply concerned about this. Poor David! Are you in RTC to be trusted, or not? Give him a hug for me, and tell him I feel his pain…
I have that one at home (if it’s in the new GAK Congress lectures).
I definitely have the State of Man Congress. I think I might have the tapes too, but I lost a lot of stuff that was at a friends house after I was declared.
As far as “Crabs in a barrel noise”, I would just not take it too seriously if you feel it is not applicable to your purview. I feel like you are trying to define it and defend against it and by doing that are breathing life into it. Even by calling it Crabs in a Barrel you are undoubtedly creating more ARC Break. When I read your OP I see a bunch of little jabs and insults.
If some people expected certain things from you it is probably time for them to reevaluate those expectations and move on.
At this time in Scientology history I don’t think it’s going to be productive of anything positive to fight or be against each other. I think the “sides” are not so different that they need to oppose each other to exist.
They are just separate activities. If I’m shooting hoops I don’t see the point of having so much attention on your playing soccer. It’s only going to mess up my game.
Paul.
The most important person in the world is the onein front of you.
Right now, as I type this with my fat fingers on my iPhone, that person is you.
Thank you for such a beautiful post. It’s authenticity brings a tear to my eyes.
The answers to your questions can only be answered by that guy in the mirror as I’m sure you know. It would be great if all we had to do was read and understand someone else’s but I think the readers of this blog can all attest to how well that works out.
If I may, and please feel free to ignore me, can I offer you the answers I came up with?
Regarding blame and judgement; it is utterly useless (in any flow or standard/strip, etc). Many are guilty of destructive behaviour and can easily be judged so… but blame an judging is purely an exercise in scratching the mosquito bite… Unquestionably solifying at first… Scratch hard and long enough though and you’ll experience a lot of pain later. Or worse, be left with a nasty scar.
Many have a scar or two. I had several. Still do. But they no longer garner the slightest of attention.
You said;
“Maybe what matters is where, in which space, I spend every second”?
That is one hell of a question my friend.
The answer, again for me, is yes. And no.
It’s your journey but in my experience focusing on every second is… Well… Too much.
Instead I roll with life. The lessons worth learning will make themselves known by my own reaction to the those moments.
Big reaction (emotional) equals… Lesson to be learned.
It’s hard at first but I tell you what… It is very, very, very easy now.
But I never ever concern myself with what others do, save to offer them help when and where I think it will be worthwhile to do so and whether it not it will be accepted.
My only enemy is in my own mind.
And lastly… How did I, or do I, let go?
Four letters. Rarely understood and often confused with a million other “feelings”.
It’s the only way to truly defeat any “enemy”.
Love them.
After that letting go is easy peasy lemon squeezy.
😉
I think you give an appearance of someone who has leadership qualities.
Whatever that is, not everybody has it. I am the type that will and can be a leader if no one else wants to do it, but I traditionally just don’t gravitate to the position of group leader.
“Group Leader” is an actual hat I think. It’s not ruler or dictator, but just a central organizing position from where purposes can be forwarded. There can be leaders of different areas and activities.
I think some people were just looking for you to be a leader over areas they thought important.
Like a Ron Paul or Julian Assange or something. They wanted to put you in the center and run forward with it, but when your goals didn’t quite align with theirs it created an explosive ARC break.
Um…
And yet so many wonder why Marty is “not with Ron”…
The ironies are like leaves on a true here.
Marty is so “with Ron” that, to my mind anyway, he is humanities only chance of not utterly destroying anything good that Hubbard left the world. Miscavige is hell bent on becoming the Saddam Hussien of Scientology with as much certainty as the knowing the sun will rise in the morning. Marty’s “mission” has some serious challenges. The “with Ron’s” of this world are like fully armed “futuristic” soldiers with two “puff the magic dragons” rigged on their soldiers and helmet’s on backward so they not only don’t see the wood for trees but will more than likely pull the trigger and spin around until there is no “woods” left.
And the final irony?
Hubbard said the above in a lecture to his faithful of the time. Who are the “faithful” now?
Nuff said.
Chris: I understand what you are saying completely. I do this ALL the time.
In buddhism it’s called “clinging” and as such is one of the most prevalent forms of suffering.
You find something (someone) you assign some label to them, you embellish that label with high-end desks etc and then CLING to that which you created – tenaciously.
I’ve done this most of my life. I’m pretty sure most of us do; otherwise we wouldn’t be miserable a good part of the time.
It’s something I work on all the time. And as myself – what am I clinging to now (when I feel crummy) …
And because of the extensive auditing I’ve had and now pretty extensive practice as a buddhist – I can usually see it.
HOWEVER, I did miss it just the other day when I was on a rampage to “get” those I thought WHO were responsible for the recent Marty attacks.
Thankfully – Marty called me up short.
Made me stop and think … after I got over being irritated at being called out 🙂
Keep working on it Chris — you’ll be a Daoist-Buddhist- Scientologist yet 🙂
(just kidding)
Okey dokely…
The following may be a conditioning that holds this kind of blaming in place and may be worth looking at.
Accountable: (of a person, organization, or institution) Required or expected to justify actions or decisions; responsible. Explicable; understandable.
I have always thought it weird that accountable is on the expanded tone scale below body death:
BODY DEATH 0.0
FAILURE -0.01
PITY -0.1
SHAME-(BEING OTHER BODIES) -0.2
ACCOUNTABLE -0.7
BLAME – (PUNISHING OTHER BODIES) -1.0
REGRET- (RESPONSIBILITY AS BLAME) -1.3
Does every perceived failure dump one into this band of shame, accountable, blame and regret? And is every mistake a failure?
It seems to me that accountability is endlessly focused on when one is on staff or being a Scientologist. i.e. justice codes, ethics, SPs, PTSes, downstats, demotions, interrogations, investigations, inspections. SOMEONE is held accountable. ALWAYS.
Seriously is a very useful word sometimes…😊
“After twelve years of meditation, I am happy to report
that at the age of 67 my vision is now better than 20/20.”
Good!
What kind of meditation?
Probably one of the quotes you refer to.
The quote is from: 520303 HCL 1 – Scientology – Milestone One. You also can
find it in New R&D-Volume 9, p. 456
“If you will just stay with me on this line, up to the first
milestone in Scientology, and bring yourself up to a high level of ability
and apply yourself to that, you will be free – free from me and from
Scientology too!” Milestone 1 – LRH
Write a book, What’s wrong with the Indies.
ML/A
Right. And, Ron means it that way, too. Look at the datum “you can’t get sick unless you agree to get sick”. Well, you can’t be PTS to someone without having overts against the person. You can’t get sick unless you agreed to play the body game. To me, PTS tech is a gradient to just telling the guy, “get over it! Get better!”. He’s not up to doing that, so it’s “handle or disconnect”.
As beings, we should out grow PTS-ness, and out grow O/W as well.
Yes. Not only has the SO ignored the dictum “no case on post,” but they are dramatizing David Miscavige’s case.
Right in one!!
Marty,
Take heart in the fact that, “When nothing is done, nothing is left undone.” – Lao Tzu
As you know, this piece of wisdom puts action and inaction strictly into the realm of considerations and postulates.
Bear in mind that even though you change, the comm lag of the physical universe will continue to manifest the various attendant phenomena you describe until your considerations and postulates overcome its inertia. Just persist and you will succeed. We will succeed.
And by the way, I’m with Ron, but I’m with you too.
LRH details the crux of this problem in HCO PL 25 June 1963
This is a faithful transcript from the handwritten LRH original. No record of this ever having been published has been found.
I also have a scan of the LRH handwritten original for anyone interested.
“HCO Pol Ltr of 25 June AD13
CONFIDENTIAL Scientologists Only
1 copy to each Central Org or City Office only
An International Objective
(This policy letter is Confidential [for Scientologists only]. The attached plan is not Confidential [however is BPI]. When republishing the attached plan [to the public or Scientology magazines] do not publish this covering policy letter.)
When we were attacked in January for using E-Meters I speeded research adopted for us a two part policy:
1. To hold the line legally and win in courts where possible but in no event to lose ground;
2. To speed up research by passing clear and theta clear as objectives, abandoning the technology giving interim states and concentration on the attainment by auditing the state of O.T. as the best answer to our difficulties.
In part one of this programme, we are succeeding easily. But it is only short term and world deterioration is accelerating.
In part two we have achieved the technology necessary by an incredible speed up and gain.
We now have O.T. in direct and real sight with only a few hundred hours of actual [skilled] auditing intervening. This is an astonishing break through, a real by-the-boot-straps necessity level research sprint.
We are then only months away from having O.T.s, a year at the most.
No Scientologist need be told what that means.
This fact enters us upon forward planning. The trouble with O.T.s in the past has only been lack of cooperation and a commonly agreed upon objective. Without these O.T.s eventually fall prey again to smaller beings with bigger organization skill, O.T. is an unstable state only when O.T.s are not cooperating with O.T.s but each one going his own way in the strong but fatuous belief he can single-handedly survive. The proof is, O.T.s have not survived as O.T.s whenever this super-individuation collided with [the] super organization of weaker beings. The answer is to remain organized, with mutual assistance and integrity and not lose touch with or responsibility for all levels of life forms and societies.
This means that programmes for such agreement must be offered.
The first step is to prevent atomic war and planetary chaos and to utilize Earth as a rehabilitation centre since it has already had the technology established here. A second step If a number following after would be to establish units not unlike central organizations, on [in] nearby systems.
No real conflict with stellar stellar powers interested in these areas will develop as I can vouch for the two most concerned in this galaxy, the Espinal United Stars and the to which the Solar System distantly belongs and the Galactic Confederation to which Espinal moderately bows.
As not all living things are capable of attaining O.T. (the vast bulk of a any human population, [like animals, grass and trees,] are possibly minion* in origin) the task of rehabilitation is not as great as it looks.
This leaves us first and foremost with the problem faced by the budding O.T. What to do to square things around!
I recommend that any action taken by any O.T. on this planet be guided by the attached programme “An International Objective” [later renamed Scientology: Plan for World Peace]. Any public ambitions for us or Earth, any vengeful or destructive urges, any stunts or public actions should be channeled into accomplishing the attached programme.
Several O.T.s even if acting independently could accomplish this, even making errors. Further the plan has some chance of succeeding even if driven in ordinary ways such as placing copies of it in the various offices of the United Nations, putting it into newspapers, inviting the attention of large commercial interests to it, etc.
We could probably each one of us think of a plan for Earth. Let us instead agree upon a feasible plan in which all of us can cooperate.
ANY PRECLEAR MOVING TOWARD O.T. SHOULD READ THIS POLICY LETTER AND THE PLAN. THE PUBLIC MAY BE SHOWN THIS PLAN AND IT MAY BE REPUBLISHED ANYWHERE. THIS POLICY LETTER MAY NOT BE MADE PUBLIC.”
L. Ron Hubbard
* Editor’s note: minion, defined in SHSBC lecture of 21 Aug 63: “You mock a mock-up up and then you endow it with some life, you see?”
And by the way Marty, I’m with Ron – but I’m with you too, brother. Anyone who endeavors to truly help their fellow man has my support.
How awful! For the love of God!
Good call. Thank you for that. After reading all the new posts I was dreading to see mine here!
Well, if you read What Is Wrong With Scientology? Healing Through Understanding you’ll understand why this particular selection doesn’t really impinge upon me. And while I don’t doubt you are ‘with Ron’, I don’t think it helps dissemination of his work much to be promoting these types of speculations.
God bless you Tory. Guts, smarts, and compassion you ain’t even used yet.
Thanks. My New York ways of shining lights on creatures that crawl to make them scamper away has limited application in the new world.
I don’t believe it much matters. Witnessing is witnessing. Absent evaluation, indoctrination, moralizing, and telling one ‘what’ he should run – as opposed to simply directing the witnessing – auditing is capable of the same. Observing as-is objectifies that which one has mistakenly subjectivized. Whether you wish to call it ‘as-ising’, erasing, objectifying, or standing-in-the-corner-on-your-head, whatever it is your are witnessing loses its grip upon you by the act of witnessing.
Rod
The problem that I am having with your statements regarding ethics is that you seem to be equating the twisted, suppressive, misuse of a valid philosophical tool, with that tool itself. I do not know if you have ever looked into the basic philosophy upon which ethics is based, but if you check out its definition in the Scientology Technical Dictionary, you will see that it is miles away from what you purport.
I DO realize how twisted it has become under suppressive management, but that IS NOT the tool… it is the misuse of the tool that is creating that. There is basically barely a glimmer of what ethics really is in its current use by the church. The current use of “ethics”, by the church, could truthfully be called “black ethics”, or simply SUPPRESSION.
But.. throwing the true purpose and value of ethics away?….
Imagine for a moment what this world would be like if everyone abandoned their pursuit of improved conditions and a better life. Imagine what it would be like if “reason” was not used in the formulation of any decision, or the carrying out of those decisions.
Hopefully, for your sake and ours, that is not what you are saying.
Eric S
No, it is simply that the world hasn’t yet caught up with New York. Gradients.
hope you heard that one… “by my own buttons”…
The moon is not the finger Chris.
For your sake I hope you see it soon.
It hurts to read your comments… in other words i feel for you… but you’re the only one who can help yourself.
God speed brother.
🙂
Touche brother… touche…:-)
Laughter!
And I am not joking , caffeine is a serious drug , people who give it up go through very serere withdrawal symptoms .
I read on this blog that OSA staff do drink coffee !
Caffeine does something to the brain :
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&ved=0CGkQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbrainconnection.positscience.com%2Ftopics%2F%3Fmain%3Dfa%2Fcaffeine2&ei=dmcyUdeJMtC7hAe6qoDYCg&usg=AFQjCNE3viHjDMCyXk581BQ6JH9-CjEFag&bvm=bv.43148975,d.ZG4
Thank you, Lawrence! Being “so OK” is good with me. Yes, $cientologists will say what you wrote is “From our past—those ‘bad people’ (self included) are now out”. People have called me saying they left 30 years ago, $cientology called them telling them this. They went in, bought the “Basics”–then checked the Net, found my videos and realized they were “fleeced AGAIN”. Yup…so very true. I remember how easy it was to buy “OSA’s BS re “SPs”: It goes back to “A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest”. If you’re lurking: PLEASE start looking, listening, READING both sides…making up your *own* minds. Peace 🙂
LRH intended it as punishment. He is the inventor of the RPF, overboarding, rice and beans and the rest. The problem with DM is not that he has twisted Source, it is that he has taken it to its logical conclusion. i don’t see anything ethical about Scientology’s ethics system, either as written by LRH or as implemented by DM.
PS: And I always ask people this: Why can’t $cientology say that? That’s really the Checkmate on all of this. We (Ex-Scios, Critics, Anons, Indies) can ALL read, look, listen and make up our own minds. Those still “in” that trap cannot. THAT, my friend, IS CHECKMATE. And to the OSA Ops? You are welcome any day, any time over to my house to “prove” me wrong..as long as you’ll listen to both sides. 🙂
I understand, and I did read your book. I don’t necessarily agree with these speculations either. I do however feel that past paradigms are a factor in future decisions in the between lives area.
To me, the problem that a being faces is ultimately achieving the goal of supreme happiness in rejoining the main body of theta vs. the apparent dissolution of identity required to attain that goal.
I have never in my life heard this statement said so many times, “that’s not real Scientology, that’s a misuse of Scientology.”
The elephant in the room is: why is Scientology misused so much? Could it be there is a denial, that it’s inherent in some of the doctrine that gives a green light for abuse. Standard abuse-blame tech like the third party “law”.
Scientology is an insane mosh pit of people attacking each other, like rabid dogs. The instruction for attacking comes from the standard tech.
To not know this is proof, that in this halfway house, some people cannot process the magnitude of the betrayal of trust. It is too much to take knowing that the commodore used to film, while smiling, old ladies being terrorized and screaming while being over boarded. Or that his medicine cabinet was filled with drugs, or that the implying of mortal harm to enemies enemies could have been real. It is interesting, everybody is blaming everybody else but Ron.
Marty’s fault, Miscavige’s fault, journalist fault, priests fault, psyches fault, MUs fault, evil intentions fault, SPs fault, governments fault, communists fault, PTS fault on and on and on and on. It is pathetic.
I have stated this before, what is the byproduct, effect and lasting influence, in your critical thinking that this question was asked of you session after session, year after year, decade after decade:
Have you ever had a critical thought toward L.Ron Hubbard?
Knowing full well that if you did have a critical thought, you’d have an ethics problem, and possibly be seen a a bad person or evil person.
Just be slighly critical of Ron and people’s brains expload. That is a conditioned response. That is a stimulus response.
Hey wait a minute that wasn’t on the menu lol!! I thought we were getting rid of stimulus response.
This whole mess is one big stimulus response. The blame game came from Ron. Oh no I said it.
Excuse me while I protect myself from the exploading brain matter.
One thing is for certain, Ron rigged this thing that you would never consider him. You will blame everyone else. Like Mayo, Erhart, Roos on and on and friggn on.
I must now dig my underground bunker in anticipation of flying grey matter:-)
Eric,
Yes, there are others to consider, not a “me only” scene. I offer in addition to your offer – individuals with their own ethics naturally set an example which others immediately catch on to (elicits their response). E.g. Ethics = virtue. Wouldn’t it be that an individual without a firm conception of his own ethics, his own direction, is more easily mislead? And is quicker to criticize or blame than to act to remedy a scene? I have developed a button of “pan-determinism”! There is a world of difference between “social” and “socialist”. Carcha.
Here is an excerpt from that link about caffeine – the worlds most powerful drug :
“It probably won’t come as a surprise, then, to discover that the human body indeed responds to caffeine as it would a poison—very similarly, in fact, to the manner in which it responds to alcohol. Liver enzymes are called on to assail the caffeine molecules and break them down as quickly as possible. This is achieved by reversing the chemical processes by which caffeine was constructed in the plants from which it comes. Groups of molecules—the methyl groups of theophylline, theobromine, and paraxanthine—are separated one by one.”
And OSA are drinking that stuff ! And your wondering why scientology is fcuked , what that stuff does to their brains ! !!!!!!
And then the thetan can’t be in full contact with the body !
And thats why scientology is fcuked .
Yes. Same page. Scn is getting a bad name in the public eye, and ethics is getting a bad name in Scns’ eyes. Both black. Funny, that.
+1
Spoken like a true Buddhist. You are of course, right.
Sounds good, Chris…it really does. “Be the change you want in the world and stop asking other people to do it for you ‘because they owe it to you’. First off, Gawd I hate it when people twist what I’ve said…as I’m sure you would, too. I never, ever said Marty “owes” me anything. If anything..I am talking to MARTY about his own spiritual health….which you’ll no doubt say I have no right discussing. And I’ll tell you I have every right, I’ve spent 12 years speaking out—and because of my doing so and MANY others, Marty is here, free to speak out.
IMNSHO: It ain’t just because one day he decided “oh hell…let’s blow this pop stand Mike, and by the way…let’s make a blog about it”. If you think that, YOU need to study up on how ALL of this came about before this blog was created. Marty knows…I’ve posted a brief skeleton of the critical time track to him more than once here, and thankfully he’s posted it, each time.
Oh sure, you can tell me to “Move along”…trust me, people have for 12 years. And if I had a dollar for every “Blessings to you, Magoo” or “thank you”…I could retire for this lifetime and possibly next. I like helping people get free…that IS why I joined the “church” of Scientology, in 1969: that was my reason, my goal. That was it. I helped a few peeps while “in”, but I’ve helped far more being out and exposing their criminal side…both people waking up and getting free and many people NOT joining this insidious organization.
I AM the the change I want the world to be. You may see it as small….and that’s your choice. I see standing up for Free speech and Human Rights as a VERY, VERY exciting, important action. I’ve been doing it since I was a teenager, far before Scientology.
Marty himself has said he was in on many secrets…as most of us were while “in”. The more people make these sekrets public, the faster these abuses can be stopped. Thanks, Chris…for responding. That’s a whole lot more than most “Indies” who seem to see me as a threat. I’m not a threat, I’m not a “DB” as $cientology would portray me. I’m not “PTS”, “Downtone” or any other BS label they plaster on people …to keep others from learning the facts. The “Letter” from my Ex-Husband about me is filled with flat out lies (*That is posted on the Net). $cientology…and even most indies, refuse to even ask me about that.
I say to you…IF you have what seems like “Black PR” on anyone, at the VERY LEAST>>>>>>>>>>>>communicate with the person. Learn Their side of things. That’s why I posted that to Marty. You see it as me telling him he “owes” me s/t. Really? Did I say that? No. “Communication IS the Universal Solvent”. Marty made a post about some “Indies” writing him a letter blaming him. I’ve heard a few more who were leaving “Marty’s”. I say to them, don’t let OSA do their “Divide and Conquer”: it IS one of their 3 KEY goals here on the Net.
Marty has said he’s been in on some very serious issues. Does he “owe” it to anyone to tell? No, he does not. Would it possibly help HIM and THEM? Absolutely. He says he wants to Nail “Dave”. Walking away from those sekrets is exactly what “Dave” wants. So I’m here…yes…sticking my neck out a bit, but what the fuck….I’ve been doing so for 12 years now. DO it, Marty…for yourself…and for those that have spent a lifetime being blamed for false crimes they did NOT commit. My love and blessings to ALL who read this, whether “in”, out or on the fence. Yes! Live the LIFE YOU want to live. I’m proud to say I am. Tory/Magoo
Burbank, CA
(818) 588-3044 ~ Your local, friendly SP 🙂
Thought becomes stimulus response to the degree the thetan goes out of contact with the body , and it is drugs , toxins and poisons that cause the thetan to be out of contact with the body .
🙂 Thank you very much, Elle!~As my Dad used to always say to us: “It takes one to know one: 🙂
Dont mean a thing
Keep up the good work Marty
I think that contemplation of the ‘between lives area’ is irrelvant, and possibly detrimental, to clearing and moving beyond even that.
I wear glasses and I’ve had auditing where my vision became clear, but later reverted. I havent quite figured that out yet.
Chris, I am not suffering. I’m just throwing some thoughts out there. It seems like things are working out. I’m not regretting or in loss. I’m just trying to understand things. I only write because I suspect others feel this way or I’m trying to figure out what they feel. Whatever. Everything is OK on my end.
I have this magnet on my refrigerator, which I love:
BARN’S BuRnT DOWN>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now I can SEE the MOON. 🙂
I have had a suspicion for some time that Buddhism imbues in people some of the things I was looking for in Scientology.
Wait till you see my upcoming post on Yin and Yang. I think it might validate the health of your suspicion.
You are a closet Buddhist, aren’t ya?
Thank you for the info. I like it. All true. Great insight.
Our Third-Dynamic deaberation continues, and we are making good progress & case gain. 🙂
Thank you for helping straightening things out. Θ
Scott, there is an interesting note in one of the basic books, Original Thesis I think it is, Where Hubbard says there is no recording going on in between lives. When I have more time I will look for it and send it to you. But when people file through memory bank records for in between lives and find no records, well, maybe they kept no records? And they it seems they forgot or can not recall when actually, they just weren’t taking notes?? They just didn’t keep a record? That has come to be my understanding.
In which case, it really is irrelevant.
Speaking of “between lives areas” I have to ask, are the TV shows on cable that claim to be communicating with ghosts (such as Ghost Hunters), full of crap? Or do thetans actually get “stuck” and wander the earth for decades sometimes??? Honest opinions only, please…
Good one Maria! So basic and common sense!
Thank you Tory for being honest and open in your communications. Thank you Marty for not closing the door on those who are inclined to come here and speak, knowing that agreement is not the important issue. It’s Communication that is the Issue. Communication, the very thing which was struck down and inhibited in the lives of those involved with the COS, even though the “idea” is promoted that that is the place where Beings can salvage themselves. Seems rather like a contradiction, eh? Blessings to you Tory and Marty. : )
I agree Marty – moreover this comment, though well intended I’m sure, just makes the claim that meditation is better than auditing …
Something I don’t think is the purpose of this blog. As you say — witnessing is witnessing.
ALSO — it’s been told to me by my ophthalmologist that often eyesight improves with age.
Something about the lens getting thicker and less pliable with age.
I know. But it seems so long since I was beyond that, I’ve almost lost what it was like and how to get there again.
Pining away for a forgotten past… Sad Effect – boo hoo.
Now what was that funny shit we were laughing about before?
Oh, yeah…
Or perhaps they are in a state of causal consciosness where they are experiencing a truth – that matter, energy, space and time are all constructions – and are not contributing to that construction, and thus there is nothing to record?
First of all, I don’t get the “with Ron”. Last time I was with Ron he hadn’t even written Dianetics. I have no idea where he is now but he isn’t sitting here beside me and I doubt he is thinking about me. When do we set Ron free and not hold him accountable for ourselves or use him for an umberella? His name has become some sort of greeting Flag, people wave around to establish some common ground, some kind of via people communicate through. It is not one’s beliefs or identity that make them a better person, it is their behavior.
If I am the first to step forward and admit I am not “with Ron” and I don’t know where he is, so be it. I confess I am sitting in my house with two kids, four dogs, one cat, and Ron isn’t here among us. Anyone out there with Ron, I would like to know the address.
The story line for Puff the Magic Dragon was a great analogy.
“Jackie is a boy who is so trapped by his fears and doubts that he could not communicate with anyone. His condition is so severe that the doctors are giving up and the parents are losing hope for him to live as something more than a zombie.
Then, a magic dragon named Puff comes to help Jackie by taking his soul force on a wonderous voyage to his island of Honah Lee. Along the way, they have adventures that nurture Jackie’s imagination and courage in unorthodox ways.
However, their arrival at Honah Lee is marked with horror as they see the land despoiled and desolate which leaves Puff powerless. Yet while trapped in his despair, Puff soons learns to his own astonishment just how well he has changed Jackie for the better, as the boy responds to this tragedy in his own way.”
The new non smoking policy at the Fort Harrison could be the why for the sudden vacancy!
Good one!
Thank you, nojokin8! I couldn’t agree more: “Communication IS the Universal Solvent”. (Knowing, as you said, that agreement is not the important issue). Blessings to you, too 🙂
That would make perfect sense.
OM, and Marty, I see your points. I’ll consult the Akashic Record later and try to discern whether I was recording or merely viewing a record. Theta Facsimile, anyone?
All I know is that for anyone attempting to report on these subjects without observing the proper corporate protocols; Terry Tate would brutally tackle them to the ground and admonish, “YOU KNOW YOUR SUPPOSED TO ATTACH A COVER SHEET TO YOUR REPORT ON NEUROPLASTICITY, BIIIIITCH!”
There is such a thing as spectator ism.
HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE
Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex
HCO POLICY LETTER OF 14 JANUARY 1969
“Purposes must be executed. They are something to DO.
OT
Let us look at the definition of OT-cause over Thought Life Form Matter Energy Space and Time.
As one falls away from that one becomes a SPECTATOR, then one becomes an effect. Then one is gone.
One causes things by action. Not by thinking dim thoughts.
One can be doing an IN basket as simply a spectator.
In the society today spectatorism is very common. Magazine writers, reporters write weird pieces that look at how odd things are. The writer doesn’t understand them at all. He just watches them.
Spectatorism is not so low as total effect.
The total effect-no cause-person has mainly a case. He doesn’t even look.
Thus there is a gradient scale of OT. It’s not an absolute. One is as OT as he can CAUSE things.
One of the things to cause is target attainment. When somebody can push through a target to completion he’s to that degree OT.
People who don’t push targets are either just spectators or they are total effect.”
People whom consume caffeinated coffee and tea regularly are drug addicts .
Yes Chris, I share your viewpoint on this. For me it is not simply Scn restim, but attempt to free beings as the hot subject even on non-scn peoples. Looks like the oldest GPM which gave us all stories about bad/good hats. Makes me also thinking about SPs : as an SP becomes one by adopting the valence, who was the first ?. Maybe the first thetans mocked up the first SP to have a game. What a fun !
Roger,
I already answered to Chris how I feel about the first part of your post. Re “More people need to get a life outside of this game”…And where are you getting that any of us don’t have a life outside of this game? First off, that’s a generality, and you know what Ron says about that! Secondly–you are implying “we” (whomever that is) don’t have lives outside of “this game”. Really? When have you been to my house? I would clearly tell you…you have no idea what all my life consists of, except what you read here on the Net. Do you honestly think this is ALL of my life? Be well, Roger..and thanks for Communicating. 🙂 Tory/Magoo
It does. Thank you. I’m tracking with your thought process now but your experiences don’t align with my own so I naturally disagree.
Yes Marty you’re so cool… (i miss a good vocabulary i’m not american) You’ll soon be into oriental philosophy which is your right. I feel to have lost a leader, maybe I’m a cultist. But Christ I’m all but a cultist. The thought is we abandon them to Miscavige and his degradation of LRon Hubbard legaçy.
It’s my feeling. It’s like the end of a revolution. My feeling… With love anyway.
🙂 You nailed it! BINGO!! II was pre-Scientology, too. That’s WHY I joined Scientology: I had a hard time applying the principles of Buddhism/Taosim I was studying in my teens. Some kids came to me, mentioned “Scientology”. I asked: “What’s that? They said: “It’s an Applied Philosophy”. That was what I needed! After quitting college (after a fight w/ my Dad) I Hitchhiked from Chicago….to ASHO, as that was on the back of the Dianetics book, in 1969! And the rest is history….:) Thanks for noticing, Marty.
RE:
“Be the change you want to see in the world and stop asking other people to do it for you “because they owe it to you”.
As you stated – clearly you don’t know Tory.
And I don’t know you.
But I do know a slimy invalidation when I see one.
Ed – I’m glad of it. I’ve met so many amazing people on this journey. I have no regrets for any part I played or continue to play in the game of ‘Scientology’ because it lead me to this place and those beyond where ultimately I found love and peace.
Aren’t we all? 😉
That yin and yang thing… I’m all ears. Especially after the video on magnetic energy… I’m watching. And learning. And finding magic hidden in the strangest of places. Must catch up on our journeys. Maybe a quick fishing trip in the summer… xxx
Thanks guys, but the standing ovation goes to Marty and Mosey.
I think Marty too needs a break and a good ack. So, I personally with my reasoning powers and without being fixed, knowing though the value of what LRH gave us, I give this standing ovation to Marty and Mosey.
I think Marty with Mosey on his side, Mike, Steve and many others next to him, did a Tremendous Reach… a tremendous one for the last 3 years.
Into the houses, the communication lines, the minds and the hearts of those thetans who were in the church or outside and not just them. On TV, on the Internet… you name it.
A tremendous reach in the media, got Miscavige front and center with the main thing that he is a bully and a tyrant and does not really act as a head of a church and that was a tremendous blow.
We all saw this. One of the very few times that Miscavige was not able to do anything in this fight. For 3 years Miscavige has been losing people to Marty and the Indies.
We all got big hopes: The power of the beast. The beast, the thetan, is simply unkillable. We were back into the scene, big time.
But as time moved on and as Marty kept on writing together with all the good folks here, one thing stands out. Not Scientology as a rote path but Scientology as a way of life. Even if there is no insignia or titles or rigid org boards around, we did do things. And did do things for ourselves and others to get better. It’s like a 8008 type of thing. We are rebuilding our own universes from scratch. We do not need a church for a via for sure.
So, I think, and I have my thoughts too, where is this all leading to, so I think we are just as the blog describes: “moving on up a little higher”. We did? Didn’t we?
We all met friends again here, got many, many wins, read new books, got to see new quotes from LRH, got new people to declare their Independence and all this while Marty was/is under constant heavy attack.
So I say this is a tremendous reach for the last 3 years. It’s really the power of the best. I have told him before, it’s from the PDC, Tone 45, Lecture Number 1 for those who don’t know this tone level.
I give the guy, a break… he surely loves to write and audit. So, he deserves a withdraw! The power of the beast… hehehe… !!!
Blimey! That was quite something! If you’re ever in the UK, whoever you are, please let me buy you a pint.
“the power of the beast” came out as the “power of the best” but who cares… we are the “best beasts” in town guys! Remember that.
Whinerdogs, pardon -persons (spelling may be incorrect) should put out a hand, touch the wall and r-e-a-l-l-y feel that wall. That does a lot to balance out-reality in other areas……
Greta
‘like’ 😀 x
Critical thinking rundown. I just got it!
Have a critical thought of Ron, thank you.
Have a critical thought of Ron, thank you.
Continue until EP: ability to be constructively critical of Ron with cognition and VGIs.
Return of Self Determinism and ability to retain all wins in Scientology.
Scott, re “achieving the goal of supreme happiness,” It’s not dissolution of identity that’s required, but rather expansion of identity. False selves and the games they play create false separation. Being able to be the other guy doesn’t mean you give up being yourself. What happens is your concept, perception, and experience of self expands to include others as they experience life from their viewpoints. Nothing is lost other than the resistance to this gain, along with the lies that justify that resistance and thereby keep one from the truth.
**correction: Taoism
The Original Thesis was written in the late 1940’s, even before DMSMH. At that time LRH thought engrams were recorded on cells. Well, they are, but the thetan makes his own copy, too. Otherwise how could MEST beings use electronics to capture free thetans? How could any of us have any facsimiles of experiences as free thetans? But we do.
Scott: I agree with Marty on promoting this PL and speculations. Several weeks ago someone quoted a bit from this PL … since I have the PL I offered to send it to those who asked me via my hushmail account. But I would never post it on a public blog.
Mostly because of the following:
The buddha was asked 14 questions that he never answered. Not because he didn’t know the answer but because he felt it would serve no purpose and set someone spinning off in concepts.
“The Buddha remained silent when asked these fourteen questions. He described them as a net and refused to be drawn into such a net of theories, speculations, and dogmas. He said that it was because he was free of bondage to all theories and dogmas that he had attained liberation. Such speculations, he said, are attended by fever, unease, bewilderment, and suffering, and it is by freeing oneself of them that one achieves liberation.” Wikipedia Fourteen Unanswerable Questions
Christine
Started twelve years ago with simple breath meditation. Like playing
the piano, I practiced and advanced into physical relaxation. I never
had the intention to improve my eyesight. My overall well-being led the
way to greater awareness in the present moment. There is more
but it is not easy to explain for me as I do not have the inclination
to teach at this time. I can tell you that “insight meditation” is also
a very good name.
Fundamental auditing is also a great method of operation which
I used in the past. However, I now rely on meditation.
GMW
hi chris, it sounds like your achieved a Release from your auditing that resulted in that portion of case causing non-optimum vision to become inactive. A Release is a powerful and wonderful thing, but it is not Erasure. After time the Release can be reversed from re-stimulation. If you were to Erase that case/engram/gpm/postulate or whatever it is, then it would be permanent. I also had a life long physical thing got better after auditing, only to return a few years later.
I think that the ingredient sometimes badly missing from some Scientologists is tolerance for other people’s opinions, actions, beliefs, values, etc. If you can’t tolerate that other people may think and do differently from the way you would, you are not free at all. You are a slave to your own prejudice.
She Squealed like a STUCK Eyed PIG”….from “The Untouchables” when he’s on the roof…and pushes the guy in the white suit off. “Did he sound a bit like thatttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt? (as the guy flew crashing down into a car. 🙂
Correction: “She” not he re “Did she sound a bit like….”
wh,
I would, as you know, be a fool to imply any cause for the eyesight gain.
My eye doctor, who is part of a large retirement community in Florida,
called me an ‘outlier’. He explained that I did not fit the typical age
pattern that he has examined in his practice. Personally, I am
grateful to get rid of the optical burdens.
In addition, my overall exam found no other typical defects.
That is the sum of it.
Kind regards,
GMW
Excellent!
Ditto!
Greta
Chris, Marty states that he does not have a group. There is an urge to “group” people in certain dimensions. And if people are not part of a group, if someone hasn’t started a group, if someone hasn’t organized it all groupy, some people feel naked. Some people have a purpose to be in a group, don’t even place the purpose of the group as a senior datmum. Look what happened to the Sea Org. Some people are ven made to feel bad about not joining or signing on to a group.
What we are here is associated terminals.
Take a look at this:
From ORG series 23.
(HCO PL 16 February 1971,
Lines and Terminals)
There is a scale concerning Lines and Terminals.
ASSOCIATED TERMINALS
SIGNIFICANCES
FALSE TERMINALS
MISDIRECTED LINES
WRONG PARTICLES
FALSE SIGNIFICANCES
(Rumors)
MYSTERIOUS TERMINALS
CHAOTIC LINES
MENACING PARTICLES
DANGEROUS IMPRESSIONS
NON-EXISTENT TERMINALS
NON-EXISTENT LINES
NON-EXISTENT PARTICLES
UNCONSCIOUS IMPULSES
THE CHAOS OF UNHAPPY NOTHINGNESS
I don’t have the rest of the reference, look it up. But wherever one is fixed on this, he is blind to the next possibility above him.
“Interesting concept, ‘fix Scientology.’ I think you know that it is futile attempting to ‘fix Scientology’ unless and until one has trascended (sic) it, right? That is, continued adherence to it, by its own laws, requires that you not even allow the thought of fixing it to enter your mind.”
Wow, Marty. I hope I’m misduplicating you here. Is it your position that Scientology cannot be fixed with Scientology? If so, that seems to be contrary to so much of what you’ve posted, including your Mission Statement. Otherwise, why even attempt to gain acceptance for something that is inherently AND perpetually unfixable?
Or, are you say that you (one) can’t fix it unless and until one drops all the platitudes and group ser-facs and objectively, candidly applies the Data Series to it?
Einstein postulated that all things in the universe could change state or nature, just through their relative postioning and motion relative to other things in the universe. This led to many seemly strange predictions, yet, over time these predictions have been confimed through practical observation and experimentation.
Thruth, i believe is also relative.
Our path in life, our experience, our knowlege, our state of case, our relative motion, our level of awareness all work to effectuate our perception of reality, of things, of situations–of truth itself. Seemingly contradictory truths arent always mutually exclusive or invalidating, though a given valid truth can be even more valid or senior to another truth.
That is not to say any belief is true. Some are flat out delusional or false.
Where scientology succeeds, it helps the individual to discover truth–about themselves as well as about everything else–for themselves, and by themselves. You can help direct a person where to look, but you cant also tell them what to see when they do the looking, or what to think about it after seeing it, and expect spiritual advancement.
Thats why Ron called his auditing centers HGC’s instead of HECs. Guidance as opposed to Enforcement is the key.
Marty, i dont always agree with you (though in the main i do, especially on what i consider the important things) but so what? Do we all have to agree on everything? Some shortest and most boring conversations i have are with those with whom there seems i have complete agreement. Some of the longest and most interesting conversations i have are with those i disagree.
It can be very productive if both parties can at least agree to respect the right of each other to have their own viewpoints.
But, if the agenda is control rather than understanding, all kinds of unpleasantness can ensue as the metaphorical bulldozers begin to rumble down the comm line.
The Thetan is not MEST. Thats Matter, Energy, Space and Time.
Memories are of things that happened- in matter, energy, space and time.
So it makes sense that if someone was just chilling out as a thetan they might not be in-sync with key elements that make up what humans would recognize as a memory. Or something like that. I don’t know exactly what thetans do in this area.
Well, might as well just “out grow” the bank and forget about it.
I think perhaps there is a world of difference between Sea Org “ethics” and what’s given in HCO PLs. It’s Sea Org ethics that “went overboard”.
Ha Ha!! Always been my viewpoint! More happening on one block…Thanks for this. Love this song!
I meant exactly what I wrote. You are misduplicating it to the extent that you are characterizing it, redefinding it, or restating it in words of your own selection.
Nuthin’ worse than being a spectating specter.
Tory, you are a lady. Many days I have remembered something you said that gave me closure that day. Most notable: “The way out is the nearest door.” “Bail while you still can” If I like someone, that’s it. 🙂 When a person disconnects from the church they wouldn’t know is ripping them off yet fully, the person leaving is supposed get all confused and lost, and it is on that premise that the church operates even with their “alleged” tech. The Church of Scientology is people trapped in a world that makes more sense than they do. A sad fate for people that claim to have set out to better the world and state they are doing so! 🙂 But, if one of them was to ask me “Hey Lawrence, what should I do about my involvement in the church?” *God as my witness* I would say “Bail while you still can!” 🙂 and possibly even “The way out is the nearest door!” if it were in context. I enjoy life and not having to practice my religious beliefs for pay with a group like the Church of Scientology.
diogenes,
Yes, I agree. That’s why I used the word “apparent” when I wrote: “To me, the problem that a being faces is ultimately achieving the goal of supreme happiness in rejoining the main body of theta vs. the apparent dissolution of identity required to attain that goal.”
Thanks Christine,
You’re right. It was an Impulsive act on my part and I could have left it out of my response. Sorry guys.
Carcha
Yes, I like that.
Eric S
Rod
OK, I can see that you are adamant about your point of view.
My guess is that you somehow “blame” LRH and/or ethics for some of the condition you find yourself in.
That is a shame… The world would probably look a lot brighter if you were to be able to find a way to let it go.
Eric S
Yep-that was the theory behind creative processing.
Chris Mann
Hi.
I would not be so quick to throw away the concept of “Group” being applicable to many associations that we find here. There are groups of friends, fellow teammates of the past, various assortments of like-minded individuals, etc. There may even be a few “formal groups” represented here. The third dynamic is alive and well here.
By my way of thinking, it does not have to be “official” to exist in fact. I do not consider that there is really any formal entity called “indies”, and yet I find myself to be a participant in this group of “indies”.
It all comes down to how you define “group”, or what you consider a 3rd dynamic to be.
Crazy isn’t it?
Eric S
So tracking with you. As regards this blatant double standard, I am now able to laugh at it for myself because on the 1st dynamic I’m flat on it. But when I think of good, well-intentioned people I know who are still in, who apparently still don’t see this deliberate, unfair manipulation of Scientology Ethics.for what it is, well- – I’m not flat on it.
Accordingly, calling OTVIIIGrrrt!!!! Your comedic genius on the subject of what Jewel has well described would be Grrrtly appreciated 🙂
Chrismann
Good one.
Eric S
Laura
Yes, and it also misdirects attention away from the correct “why”, so the correct “why” is never spotted, much less handled.
Eric S
I did that once too. It worked out for the best.
Keep on walking don’t look back. If it falls in your road again afresh it will fall anew under different conditions. Perhaps ones that are kinder and more rewarding.
Thank you Kay for your purpose to help, and in all the manners that you did. May the red carpet roll out for you. L.I.P.. (Live in Peace).
Simple Thetan, I respectfully disagree with you about PTS Tech. I really believe it was and is the MIS-application of PTS tech that caused/is causing its downfall. This is just me, now, but I’ve had Scn ethics tech applied to me correctly – not always – but enough times to have reality that it can really help. I won’t cavil with you as regards “Any disease…is suppression”. I personally do not have much subjective reality on being sick because of being connected to an SP. But during the ethics cycles which helped me, while the EOs would use that stable datum they never employed it to not-is any physical unwellness I was experiencing. And, of course, it is 100% true that all bodies eventually sicken and die but again, I don’t see that fact as being in opposition to the disease/suppression datum. I look at it this way: plants wither and die, and animals eventually all sicken and die. The real issue for me as re a suppressive influence would be: at what stage of life does this occur?
Take, for example, a rose. There’s first a tiny bud, then it blooms, lasts for a while and then it withers and dies. No matter how perfect the conditions are for the growth and maintenance of that rose, it will still eventually wither and die. The whole plant won’t necessarily die but the individual flowers on it assuredly will. But then, what if the roses start to wither as buds, before they even bloom? To me, that would be indicative of a suppression of the rose buds, something contra-survival in the rose-bushes environment causing the flowers not to bloom when they should. To me, that’s very different than full blown roses gradually losing their petals and dying. “To everything, there is a season…a time for every purpose…” I personally view physical death of plants, animals and people in old age as part of the “purpose” of any physical thing, which is apparently, only to be born, to live for some period of time, and to die, while at some point before death, to reproduce its own kind which will in turn do the same, etc. etc.
Have to say its really fun for me to debate these kind of philosophical issues with people who have their own viewpoints and yet allow others to differ.
“Full responsibility contains the willingness to let somebody else be responsible too”.
I’m blowing charge here!!
Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but I wanted to ask a question of Marty and all the Indies that post here. I just finished Lawrence’s book on LRH and Scn. Although I didn’t like how he tried to paint Ron’s personal life as bad and Ron in a bad way, he was spot on on most of the other stuff. The chapter on how DM took over the church was so well written, understated even, but it took my breath away and I just had to read it twice and have a moment of silence over the loss of it all when he did his hostile takeover right under all our noses. My question is this: DM’s wife’s mother became a liability to him because she was going to leave the church and might speak out publicly. And then she was found shot dead with several gunshot wounds to the chest and one to the temple. The police called it a suicide. How can that be? How can a person shoot themselves more than once? the first bullet at close range would at least render them unconscious if not dead. So given that, it seems clear to me that she was murdered. And maybe murdered on DM’s order to get her out of the way so that she didn’t besmirch his career or bring bad press to him. Is this how you others see it? It’s a lot of evil to confront. I mean, we always talk about DM for beating people, but this possibly went way over the line into the murder category. Do you think he paid someone to assassinate his mother in law?
Good one, Micheal, and Marty::: Yes! Yes! And the caravan moves on 🙂
Love Van Morrison…always have. “Turn up your radios!”
Yeah. I just didnt spot exactly what did it. Thats the thing. Maybe thats why it wasnt permanent.
What Eddie said 🙂
I love that, Lawrence! It’s a great line, isn’t it? It says so simply ALL that is needed. I remember so well when I woke up in July of 2000, after Andreas e-mailed me: “I don’t think Scientologists are bad, I just think they are miss informed. But I have to ask you this one question: What kind of friends could those be if they’re going to leave you because you changed your mind?”
That SECOND>>>>>>>>>my personal Scio-Truman show cracked open. I still felt like I was standing on a cliff 1,000 feet high and way at the bottom was a TINY sign that said: “You MIGHT make it IF you JUMP”.
I did…I made it, and soon after I found the sign: “Leap and the Net will appear”. Also: the way out is the nearest doooooooooooooooor”. (as truly it IS no more than walking across the street!) Lastly, which is VERY true: Bail while you still can. I cannot tell you how many people have died “in” $cientology during the 12 years I’ve posted that. Thanks, Lawrence…very much 🙂 Tory/Magoo
Hello, all of you “With Ron” – LRH datum, paraphrased: Consideration is senior to the mechanics of matter, energy, space and time. Sure, sure, still, Indie Scientologists shouldn’t be THINKING… Good luck with that, guys.
Hi Tory,
Thanks for the reply. I think we’re risking “stealing” Marty’s blog at this point so I’ll just say this.
1. Touche’… you are of course right. You asked Marty a question… then I jumped in and “made my point”. It’s between you and Marty. I’ll leave it there.
2. Thank you for doing all that you do. I am more grateful than I can possibly put in words for all that you have done in righting the wrongs that we were all a part of for so many years. You set a very high bench mark for doing good in this world and if on my final breath I have matched your efforts then I will “move on” a very happy tarveller.
All my love,
Chris
lol!
“You’ll find the answer in every little thing you do” by Jane’
🙂
xx
Maria,
Dissenting opinion:
1) In order to analyze a complex situation it is necessary to isolate at least some moving parts.
2) In order to have a structure of laws, man-made or natural, it is necessary to draw distinctions.
3) In isolation I find that what LRH said with reference to the above is correct.
I get what you are saying and you tackled the sentence in the topic I only thought about tackling (and decided not to). So I’m not “making you wrong” or trying to go “one-up” on you. In the course of discussion the first thing said is often the bravest – because as it is refined, it will be seen to be incomplete. What I’m saying is scientific principle and very serious in many circles. A first step in medicine is to isolate a pathogen (a cause). In a diseased state, that pathogen is never isolated – it is in the body together with everything else (that’s the problem). In cases where it is proving very difficult to isolate “A”, it can be observed alongside “B” in one dish, and alongside “C” in another dish, and alongside “D” in another dish, and differences compared to try to “artificially isolate” it and be able to draw accurate inferences to predict its relevant behaviors. In life, one is dealing with a great many simultaneous interactions. The mistake is not in isolating and identifying a cause. The mistake(s) are something like having a cause identified, and having a solution, but instead of making a correct diagnosis and giving the correct solution, a bunch of know-better unqualified orderlies start handing out the one specialized solution like candy. Everyone hands out the same solution for everything from a headache to a broken leg gets the same solution, expecting it to work. When it doesn’t work, the blame goes to the guys who isolated and identified it and came up with a solution. A sword is not an effective way to kill a fly. Those who do not qualify as “everyone” handing out the same solution for “everything” are viewed as being counter-intention, anti-social, insane, stupid, and the problem.
4) It is not the solution itself which was incorrect.
Maybe I’ll get labeled as a “with-Ron-er” or something I never imagined would happen. But to me, when you get this stuff, it is all as obvious as the sky, only a lot easier than the sky to get a handle on. People who habitually make mistakes are “cut some slack” and people notice what they get right, and hang with that, instead of finding the rare mistake and pointing out the error.
Carcha.
Or maybe… just maybe… there is no Scn restim, GPM, good/bad hats, SPs, valences, thetans, etc, etc, etc…
Maybe… just maybe… there is only you, me and all the other me’s… and everything else is irrelevant…
Just a thought….:-)
Forgive me Graduated… but I haven’t seen such a perfect example of one “hearing what they want to hear” for some time now.
I mean no offence and hope you are strong enough to take this onboard but please take a moment to ask yourself why you might possibly have felt the need to ask Marty if his “position” was that scientology cannot be fixed with scientology?
Have you not just made the assumption that A. Scientology is broken and B. It MUST be fixed?
Perhaps this is a semantic point but I think you’ll find Marty has never said A or B above.
Motorcycles are not dangerous on their own my friend. People make them dangerous. Same goes for anything, be it a physical vehicle or a spiritual one.
I would ask yourself these questions.
1. Do “I” need to fix “scientology”?
2. If yes… why?
peace,
Chris
Hey OM… love your comment brother. Yea… not seen Ron for a good while myself either…:-)
Regarding the analogy I was actually referring to the military slang used in the Vietnam war;
“During the Vietnam War the AC-47 Spooky gunship was nicknamed “Puff the Magic Dragon”, after the song. The North Vietnamese had named the AC-47 the “Dragon” or “Dragon ship” because of its armament and firepower – the nickname soon caught on, and the American troops began to call the AC-47 “Puff the Magic Dragon”
I prefer your picture of the analogy though.
But it works either way… 🙂
+1
The irony is the misunderstanding of some fundamentalists Indies. They don’t seem to have a clue of what you are speaking and doing about.
I’m not seeing anything here that isn’t a norm in regular society. Seems to me that things are spinning around the “Scientology is the suxxors” stable datum, but as usual, this isn’t the right Why thats going to open the door for a handling.
“This is why Scientology sucks” doesn’t have quite the ring to it any more. Was it DM? Was it LRH’s ‘insane policies’? Was it the nutty gang that got enthralled by it all, back in the “good ol’ days” who did all the wrong? Was it Marty and Mike, all along, ruining Scientology from within – and now without? Wow, what a bunch of wrong items. (Hint: In my opinion, the “why” is simply this: Scientology is not being used to improve conditions in life…)
Geeze, this is quite a circus. Perhaps this is happening because the purpose: “Using Scientology to Improve Conditions in Life” is no longer the focus.
So what is the focus of this 3rd-dynamic activity? (Marty says he doesn’t have a group, but by just putting up this web page, he does in fact have one, like it or not..)
I’ll just have to keep visiting until I figure it out ..
BTW, before anyone says it: I’m not, in any way, the terminal Marty is talking about. As far as attempting to engage in a discussion of the pro’s of Scientology, as Marty suggested, I’ve “let it go ..” since in actual fact, there isn’t much interest, it seems, in working out the positive effects of applying the materials – more so that folks seem to want to change the entire landscape, re-write the OEC’s, remove the “bits we don’t like”, and so on. Its all going to end up being a book about gannets, soon enough ..
Marty… I think I’m going to bow out of this post now…
As is so often the case with life… There is an artist out there how as put in a song everything I would love to say to these “with ron’ers”, “DM’ers”, etc, etc…
I’ll leave it here for those who care to watch, listen and learn…
Gunner,
actually the word “wei” (in “wu wei”) doesn’t mean “action” alone.
It means rather “effort”. Thus: wu wei -> without effort, or effortless.
It is a common misunderstood that “wu wei” is something passive. It can be very vivid, creative and spontaneous.
Imagine someone around 20.0 at the tone-scale. No effort, good estimation of randomity, able to observe and to let go.
Or this one…
Don’t just watch and listen though… Put your best head phones on and really feel it… Please…?
The Blog Is On Fire.
“The food may coarse or dainty prove,
May scanty be or much abound,
Yet if the meal is blessed with love,
Love the best sauce by far is found.”
The Ancient: Kesava,
Jataka,346
Much Metta , Marty
GMW
Fair enough. So, which laws are you referring to?
Actually, Rod, LRH did not come up with the idea of the RPF. Someone else did and he okayed it. Initially, it was a weeks long program. It later became quite different.
No, this was a who, one person, who sent the comm that led to this post. As Marty says, it doesn’t matter who that person is.
Link, the Niners’ third stringer was also really good. Harbaugh loves him, so they will be set, it looks like. Need some DBs (that’s defensive backs) but other than that, they look like the class of the league. Might be good to think about replacing Frank Gore since he won’t last forever, though he just might. As for Sweden, we love it here in the Workers Paradise. Free education, free healthcare, a year of paternity leave for each parent for each child and other such perks will keep the stress levels manageable. Socialism just means a society based on people, Capitalism just means a society based on capital. (Two broad strokes that are guaranteed to ARC Break the shit out of someone, like maybe Publius.)
MDL & nomnom:
I definitely knew mdl, so I must have known you also nomnom because I was in that courseroom too. Good to see that some SFO comrades have escaped from cult rule.
Namaste
No
Thanks. I’ll check it out. Good chatting with you 😉 x
Thanks for posting Oracle. This is one of my all time favorites from LRH. It’s why after 40 years as a Scientologist I still love statistics. This reference you post here also shows LRH never intended stats to be misused. Stats were an honest way to gauge target attainment and thus O.T. I loved stats. But nothing could enrage me more than dishonest stats, i.e. “stat pushes” as that alone destroyed and got people confused about target attainment and thus confused people about the subject of O.T. So if one desires to know just how confused David Miscavige is about the subject of O.T. and how much he desires to destroy O.T. , one only need to look at how hard he works to show false statistics. I know this subject cold and very intimately. I once falsified a stat and it nearly killed me. It’s not good to mess with O.T. Thanks again for posting, Oracle.
Carcha,
I carefully read what you posted and I can honestly say that I do not understand what your point is. You seem to be arguing with me, but not arguing with me. So I will take a stab at what I think you are saying and you can tell me if I have understood correctly.
You disagree with my statement: THIS IS BULLSHIT because you see the statement as being too sweeping and not allowing for the factor of rote applications by individuals who lack discernment and informed judgment of what technology to employ in various situations.
And that is correct. However, the wording of these quotations is ABSOLUTE. There is no statement that one should use judgment, nor is there any allowance for using judgment. There is no allowance for mistakes, for all mistakes are mandated as evidence of a suppressive person.
AT THE ROOT OF EVERY BAD CONDITION WILL BE FOUND A SUPPRESSIVE PERSON.
Now God knows LRH made PLENTY of mistakes. Those mistakes were NOT due to suppression. They were mostly due to trying things out, learning, changes made, finding out that a scene was different than what was initially observed to mention a few sources of mistakes that cannot be attributed to the actions of a suppressive person.
You said: “When it doesn’t work, the blame goes to the guys who isolated and identified it and came up with a solution.”
These policy letters are NOT solutions. They are ABSOLUTE pronouncements.
Nor are they useful as absolute truths for the purposes of running a successful organization and they are completely contrary to this datum:
“LOGIC 6. ABSOLUTES ARE UNOBTAINABLE.”
– Advanced Procedure And Axioms, by L. Ron Hubbard
What I did was call the BULLSHIT on making ABSOLUTE statements like the ones I quoted in my comment, rigorously training people to apply them, and then insisting that they are to blame for applying them as an ABSOLUTE.
He screwed up by making these ABSOLUTIST statements. BIG TIME. BIG MISTAKE. So big that it has almost destroyed the entire Scientology movement.
So he made a mistake. FIX THE DAMNED MISTAKE and forget about this nonsense that the mistake was caused by a suppressive person.
Honestly, if you cannot identify a mistake or a false datum or an unworkable datum without having to look around and find a suppressive person, you are never going to fix it and the same sad state of affairs is going to repeat and repeat and repeat, just as it has on the very post that Marty made that started it.
Let me start by agreeing with you that it is a pleasure to be able to express a differing opinion without provoking mis-emotions. As my friend always said: “You can disagree, but don’t be disagreeable.”
I am not saying that suppression does not cause illness. However, the sweeping statement tying any illness to suppression contradicts the book Dianetics where LRH discusses psycho-somatic illnesses at great length. Also as a CS, when a preclear or pre-OT gets sick, you first repair the last action. You also find the errors in his auditing and correct them. Having done that, if the person is now ok you just continue his auditing.
One can make the argument that there was suppression there, but it is wrong because it points at the wrong action. If correcting auditing errors or auditing an engram handles the illness, then sending the person to ethics and forcing him to find an SP is the wrong action and is damaging to the person.
I can bring more examples where there are other exceptions to the statement, but the burden of proof has already been broken by the examples above. Only in Co$ today the CS is making his work easy by using absolutes. A real CS or auditor would first find out what is wrong with the person and fix it. This include sending him or her to a doctor.
It should end with: just as it has on the very post that Marty made that started this discussion.
Marty,
I haven’t posted in a while, although I read every day. For what it’s worth, I love your approach to applying the workability of Scientology, the insight you share, the data that you evaluate from other sources, and your experiences as you reach for personal and spiritual growth. I am attempting to do the same in my own life, and your blog and books have truly helped me to do that. I appreciate the views shared by all those that post, as it has helped me gained much needed perspective.
After a half a million dollars, and a brief time in the SO, I decided to walk away after Debbie Cook confirmed all of those things that somehow I already knew were true, but was not being honest with myself about. As a result, I have experienced the disconnection of many of what I thought were close friends, just for having a viewpoint that is not in line with command intention. I have been told that I am in doubt, and that I need to go to the MAA to do a condition. I have had other Indies tell me as well, that “I am being treasonous to Ron by not writing up my condition and coming out.” I have had a similar experience in that some of the “Independent Scientologist” are the same in terms of their thought process as the CoS, just without the Miscavige. As I have grown myself, I have realized that NEITHER of these groups are ones I identify with, as NEITHER of them grant me the beingness that LRH used when he was discovering Scientology. Right or wrong, I am taking my own path, and figuring things out for myself. And most importantly, I’m truly willing to experience.
So while I was on this journey, I decided which group I was going to join. I realized that I was in a lower condition, but with myself. I decided to do condition on that, and then decided to join the group of ME. ME has accepted me into the group, and I am now happy being, thinking, and inspecting for myself, and creating my dynamics on my own determinism. I have come to realize that LRH has imparted a lot of wisdom, which I have applied to make my life better. Others have as well, and I am grateful for them sharing it, and grateful that I can learn it too.
To make myself and environment better (which what I am most interested in), I don’t need to donate millions or repeat courses or auditing. I have gotten more spiritual growth from just inspecting and observing various viewpoints, like the ones posted on this blog. When I see something wrong in my environment, I do what I can to fix it, which usually doesn’t involve donating money, doing basics, reopening Orgs, but willingness to DO something about it. I have observed that you have had the courage to use your influence and lines to Do Something about things for which you felt were wrong or for which you have may have taken part. For that, I commend you. You are in no condition my friend.
For me, I am truly grateful for my time in Scientology. It has helped me with many things, and helped to shape who I currently am. Let those who want to be “with Ron” go do that. Let the haters hate. Don’t deny them the experience, as maybe that experience will help to shape them one day. I’ve been there and done that, so I know where it leads. For me, I would rather be “with ME,” and because of it, have Moved on Up a Little Higher!
ML,
NoCaseOnPost
No
Very simple description. Very helpful to arriving back to a state of native ability. Thanks!
LAUGHTER!:)
Marty, it seems the blame game is pretty much like the judgmental game you’ve written about. It’s pretty crazy alright and is one of the main benefits I have personally had since having had no communication with the church or any corporate Scientologist for 3 years. The benefit is just not having that craziness on my lines. I think you had that experience for a few years after you left the church. But I’m sure that since 2009 you get hit from all directions. And it seems you have been confronting the entheta you get hit with, probably even getting roughed up some by it, but most importantly learning from it and providing education about it to others. Thanks for doing all that…Theta-MEST Theory. So for all those “with Ron” people, they need to thank you for doing so as LRH would certainly thank you for pushing ahead on all fronts with all that is known in these current times. Your work definitely helps me as I’ve had tremendous situations to handle in my own life.
Opps… I’m not sure if I posted the above in the right place.
Thanks for the reply SKM.
“Wu wei” would be the manifestation of the Dao creating or not creating.
It would be the consideration. A good referencve to this would be the
dichotomies found in Scientology 8-80. The Dao (Tao) is the Being
or Source of the consideration and completely, for lack of a better concept,
outside the physical universe . The Dao (40.0) takes no action. By consideration and the physical universe connection (20.0) leaves nothing undone. The game is to take part in the game and come out with experience unscathed. Also bringing its creation to equilibrium and/or
reconciliation. A study of “The Factors” and the axioms can be seen as an amplification of simplicity of the Taoist statements.
Another area to examine are the four postulates found in the congress lectures and SHSBC.
Thanks again.
P.S.
My “wind” quote is an Eastern thought based on Shakespeare and
the petard hoist. A joke that is a truism.
The truth has a way of brining life back to life. And for those that have died, they will always be remembered, even one or two that met me. 🙂 Blessings.
Gern
I do understand your concerns regarding the tech and its use in the future, I just personally feel that “reason” needs to be applied at all levels. Mistakes will be made following either path, but we must each follow the path that is the truest for us.
But gannets? Maybe not gannets… um… How about pendulums?…
And, since we are talking about pendulums…
It is observably true that the pendulum will inevitably swing in one direction for a time, but it will also, just as inevitably, swing back. But, the most frequently visited, and strongest part of the swing, is in the middle, and where the pendulum will eventually find rest.
Geeze… I think I must be a philosopher… Woo hoo!
Maybe I SHOULD try my hand at gannets.
Eric S
Maria,
I’m not undermining what LRH said, just as I’m not trying to “argue” with you. If you trace back a mistake, eventually you end up wih suppression at the root. A not-discovering something is not a mistake. If it were, we’d all be guilty and screwed for not having discovered a science of life. In a science one gets some surprising statements which form the basis of it. In mathematics for example you get the concept of limits or of infinity – undefinable absolutes. Math wouldn’t be math without these. Numbers are symbols of MEST, and MEST is not a source of absolute truth. Neither is biology. Applying just one axiom of a science isn’t going to bring the science to life, as it were. Working with all axioms to try to see the truth will work. One doesn’t take as-is-ness and simply make all abberation disappear because now one knows how. The SP PTS tech isn’t the only thing LRH got right, and by itself, it is not the whole science. But it is correct.
Take the example of an ‘argument’. Some get frustrating, and become personal. Two people get angry and resolve never to speak again. I mean, they hate each other now. And they’ve been called names. Bad. Bad people, both of them. Well all of life until Scn is just that, in a nutshell, and vengeance brought about an SP. But usually, days or weeks after a big argument, the two people settle out and make up in some way. With Scn tech, they can as-is and laugh and love. The failure was to arrive at a coincident viewpoint – which was and is there. Sometimes, the two do in fact find the same viewpoint, later. This is interesting stuff. Weeks ago, they were [snip, snip, snip]. Then they see the same thing. Must be thetans, that explains it.
I’m seeing that most people do not get Scientology as a coherent science. That’s a horribkle thing to say because it invalidates in an unspecific manner and offers no substantiation anyone can look at and fix. You get everything from people “who have achieved the state of static” to people who see it as a money machine scam, and not that many who take responsibility and improve things. Practically, you would probably get further taking the isolated data of axiom of Scn #11 (four conditions of existence), and working with that, than taking the isolated data about suppression and working with that. (But that would be ridiculous, right? No, no it wouldn’t! The geniuses in the Co$ are doing it!) Neither one by itself is going to do what all the data and practice accomplish. That does not make any of it wrong. And it certainly isn’t “bullshit”. There is an awful lot of ethics tech that isn’t being used at all. Use that all together and it will work just fine – and the PTS SP data is just one part of that.
Carcha.
“I decided to do condition on that, and then decided to join the group of ME. ME has accepted me into the group, and I am now happy being, thinking, and inspecting for myself, and creating my dynamics on my own determinism.”
“I’ve been there and done that, so I know where it leads. For me, I would rather be “with ME,” and because of it, have Moved on Up a Little Higher!”
Wonderful enlightened post!
ME is such a Kool Group!
Gunner, one thing is for sure: the technologies of Dianetics and Scientology can help to achieve the higher states of mind eastern philosophies speak about.
LRH says that “most people get so confused by all the lies around they come to believe anything they’re told”. NYC Has always been one of the Church of Scientology’s MAJOR crime capitols of the world. People talking about Paulette Cooper right out in the open at the Org. Staff members boasting how they always have money to burn because they don’t pay the government S**T. People stealing other people’s mail from LRH concerned about what might be written in the letters. AND Karen, in my opinion, that is the bottom line on things. If a person has to steal L. Ron Hubbard’s personal communications to others in order to get up the Bridge, that person might as well pack it in for life! But, it is THE perfect place to make a mis-example of someone. 🙂
I think we need to lighten up on the word “suppression” and not take it so seriously and with such emotional impact. Through misunderstanding, misapplication, and just plain old ignorance and evil intent, it has come to be recognized as the boogie man. The word “suppression” has been used enough times as a judgmental wrong indication on enough people by enough sociopaths or the not quite bright that we instantly equate it as being from a died-in-the-wool 2 ½ percenter SP. THEREIN IS THE BULLSHIT.
So, before we through the baby out with the bathwater, let’s take a closer look at what’s actually in the tub.
To sidestep the humongous by-pass charge connected this word “suppression” I will hereafter use in its place the word “thwarting”. Similarly, I’ll use the word “sociopath” in the place of “suppressive person” or ”SP”.
“Thwarting” is anything that thwarts one’s urge toward survival as any or all of the Dynamics (or any combination thereof) – the urge being avoidance of pain and the seeking of pleasure. It “thwarts” that urge. That’s all. Read DMSMH.
All “thwarting” does NOT emanate ONLY from sociopaths. ANYONE can and does occasionally thwart another’s urges. Welcome to human interaction.
Junior, seeking pleasure, wants a Snickers Bar before bed. Dad, instead of substituting something sweet but innocuous, says, “NO!”. Junior cries because his urge has been thwarted and keys-in a stomach ache to make Dad wrong. Does that make Dad a sociopath? HELL NO!
Maybe he lacked a little presence of mind due to a headache brought on by Mom showing up 4 hours late without calling for the beautiful dinner he had prepared, thwarting his urge fuck her brains out all evening. But does that make Mom a sociopath? HELL NO!
Maybe she was just in session getting a repair list done on a flubbed listing action that keyed-in a migraine, but does that make her Auditor a sociopath? HELL NO!
The reference that unlocks this whole conundrum is “An LRH Talk to Worldwide [Saint Hill] Ethics Officers” wherein he states that accidents, illness, etc. are precipitated by a sociopath or a thwarting action – “a suppressive person OR ACTION” (emphasis added). I repeat, OR ACTION.
When someone is thwarted, they get a little stressed; get knocked out of present time a little; get keyed in a little; get their senses dulled a little. They’re not quite as sharp. In that state, they can start making a lot of mistakes or key in an illness or blow a red light. In that state, in short, one can get into or cause himself or others some trouble (i.e. a “POTENTIAL Trouble Source” – PTS). It could be only a momentary condition, particularly if one has a grasp of this technology and knows what to spot and blow. If not, someone properly trained can help one spot and blow it. The procedure is colloquially referred to as a “10 Aug” after the date the procedure published.
But does one lousy mistake mean you’re a Potential Trouble Source? HELL NO! WHAT DOES YOUR MATERIAL STATE??
I’ve done enough 10 Augs and blown enough minor illnesses for enough people on the spot to have utter certainty that when you cease to look for the thwarting that precipitated the condition, you don’t get results.
“No, no, bullshit! He got sick because he had soup with botulism!” OK, well what the hell was going on that put him in a position where all he had to eat was fucking botulized soup, mother fucker??
So, no, you don’t need to be intimately connected to a sociopath. If you are intimately connected to a sociopath who’s introverting you with snide comments and pissing on ideas or betraying or abusing you are whatever, you’re a dumb-ass and need to get away from the prick. But that’s only the “Type 1 PTS” – very rare (except in the Sea Org). Type 2 PTS is just around someone who REMINDS him of such a prick in the past. And Type 3 PTS is the sociopath himself or those whom he has completely driven bonkers. Types 1, 2 and 3 on the ONLY TYPES related to associating with sociopaths, past or present.
“Type A PTS” is something someone who’s intimately connected to another person that he is antagonizing in some fashion. Types B – J are simply case syndromes. But all case boils down to a thwarting of some fashion. If you can key-out something that’s currently in restimulation by spotting a recent thwarting yourself, go for it, Brother! If you can’t spot it yourself, get someone who knows what they’re doing to do a 10 Aug with you. But if it takes deeper digging, go see an Auditor.
But, c’mon. This tech being the downfall of Scientology!?!?! OMFG!! Really??
Marty, unfortunately the “blame game” is more and more prevalent in our society. You hear it throughout the media of today. One of the first things about Scientology that really appealed to me was that each person was responsible for their own condition. So, I read your blog and other writings by Scientologists to see if there is anything in them that can help me in my own endeavors. I may not always agree with all of them but that does not give me the right to tell you you are wrong or try to blame you for what is happening in Scientology today. The truth is that every single one of us that saw something happening that we thought did not quite go with what LRH had written, or saw something and gave tacit consent by keeping quiet or anything like that are responsible for the state of Scientology today. I personally thank you for standing up and publicly speaking of the abuses that occurred. And I just wish you all the best. You will never win over all the detractors, so just keep speaking to try to help as many as you can.
Oh my, Karen. I just had a cognition. I believe that what you describe is the “M.O.” of many criminal organizations: They seek to recruit someone into their circle of evil-doing by giving someone an “assignment”. If that someone is aware of what they are being asked to do and has any moral scruples about carrying out the assignment to the letter, the handlers just “shoot” them because they know that this person is a potential WITNESS to their crimes. This procedure is followed by the Mafia, corrupt intelligence organizations, corrupt police, and third world dictators among others.
Very understandable that the International “Justice” Chief blew. He must have become aware of some shred of decency and integrity in himself which was in conflict with his evil, robotic, cowardly action.
Thanks, that is not it, but I would have loved to have remembered that one too! It is exactly what should take place!
XXOO
Thank you Monte!
That’s interesting. One has to appreciate the imagination of those soldier boys.
Just adding a name to a list. The comment on open discussion got my attention – a thing of mine recently has been that as rationality improves viewpoints seem to converge. Hm. Communication is the universal solvent. – Carcha.
Scott, I am glad you brought that up. OTs do best with OTs. This is a natural law to me and the 3rd Dynamic is alive in me… in a different sense that some people feel here. The Sea Org has done a lot to keep Scientology going. There is no doubt about that. If it weren’t for the Sea Org we wouldn’t be here. I am sorry if some people cannot see. That does not mean that the Sea Org now is as valuable as it was.
A group of OTs is really needed on this planet. This is my strong belief. I don’t have to apologize about it. As years go by we will see the value of such a group. Thank you.
Blame can be shared with good results. I was trying to sell a piece of property and it wasn’t moving. I blamed the next door neighbor. He had old furniture sitting on his lawn , trash, it looked like a haunted house. I blamed him for my problem of not being able to move my property as it was clear nobody wanted to live next to that. And, he was anti social to the point that the others in the neighborhood were afraid to approach him.
He had some funky stuff going on in that house, people coming and going all night long with back packs.
I had an appraiser crawling over my property and taking photos of his. I did get a factual appraisal of how his property discounted mine in value.
I dropped the rumor to the other neighbor that I was going to have to reduce the price of my house by 50,000.00 to sell it.Then I was going to file law suit for the loss and get a lien put on the trashy property for the 50K plus legal. At which point, me and Mr. trash would actually become co owners of his home, and both of us would be to blame for the problem.
A few days later the biggest dumpster I have ever seen was sitting in his driveway , it was loaded two times in total, emptied once in between, and workers were crawling all over the place. Even the trees were trimmed.
I guess the marriage proposal turned him off.
Here is a video of John McMaster, first certified CLEAR.
He was declared a suppressive person on LRHs watch.
He was a friend to LRH.
He was a research auditor on S&D tech and Power Processing tech.
The “Blame Game” has a long history in scientology. Starting with LRH himself. In fact, LRH was the original squirrel.
Maintain your own integrity. Evaluate for yourself.
As McMasters said “Know the truth, and YOU will set yourself free”.
Power Processing history starts at 1hr 40 minutes,
Graduated, love your contributions. Thanks very much.
These are all valid points, and I quite agree with you. And you have carefully laid out the differentiation and discernment that is necessary to use that tech appropriately and to good effect. i.e. you have taken it out of the frame of ABSOLUTE pronouncement. You have fixed the mistake.
Fact: I did not say that this tech was the downfall. So there is no need for OMG! and all that.
I said that LRH screwed up by making these ABSOLUTIST statements. BIG TIME. BIG MISTAKE. So big that it (IT being making ABSOLUTE pronouncements like these) has almost destroyed the entire Scientology movement.
LRH does this a LOT. You could almost call it a signature style. Leaving these ABSOLUTE pronouncements, (which he often earlier or later contradicts,) in the hands of the not quite bright, the inexperienced, and the poorly trained Scientologist is a BIG MISTAKE. Sure he clears it all up in LRH Talk to Ethics Officers Worldwide, but you only get that reference in the full hat for an Ethics Officer or seniors. How many Ethics Officers do you really think have done their full hat before being posted? And how quickly do they themselves go PTS?
I say FIX THE DAMNED MISTAKE. i.e. the unnecessary and misleading ABSOLUTE pronouncements. Do not denounce LRH, that is just more of the same. FIX THE MISTAKE. Just as you have just now done. But to do that you have to recognize that it is a mistake and then have the balls to make the changes and be damned with anyone who thinks that it is somehow harmful to LRH to do so. I happen to think it is harmful NOT to do so, especially when it is obvious that it is badly badly understood and horribly horribly misapplied as a result.
In fact, I vote for you to re-assemble and restate the materials so they accurately reflect proper usage and understanding. That is what you have done in your comment anyway.
Yep. That is all good. And the PTS SP tech is definitely a tool that can be used to assist an individual.
But still the ABSOLUTE statement that was made was that:
AT THE ROOT OF EVERY BAD CONDITION WILL BE FOUND A SUPPRESSIVE PERSON.
Consider for a moment that inexperienced people lack skill. They make mistakes. Mistakes can and often do result in BAD CONDITIONS. Example – child learning to ride a bike, has poor balance and control and so smacks into a tree. This is an accident. A mistake. A bad condition. The child has a concussion as a result. THERE IS NO SUPPRESSIVE PERSON at the root of this event. Just a child that lost control of a bicycle on their first time out. By the terms of this ABSOLUTE statement, only those children are PTS will lose their balance. And before they get back on that bicycle or will be able to practice enough to become skilled, the SP needs to be rooted out. Corollary: All children who are not PTS will get on their bicycles and NEVER lose their balance. Not likely.
As I see it, you do agree with me that this ABSOLUTE statement is a MISTAKE and a bad one too, for you have taken the time to write up a better way, an improved way, and a far more sensible way of approaching the subject.
You should not have to do that. You should not have to endlessly argue with the not quite bright who seize on these ABSOLUTE pronouncements as the very word of God himself. And yet you do have to, and countless of us have to and did when we were on staff. So much wasted time, dev-t, damage, failed cycles, when what really needed to happen was to fix the bloody mistake made when these statements were made in ABSOLUTES.
And it is LRH that made the mistake. Repeatedly. Not just in the PTS and SP materials, but strewn throughout the materials.
Very nice. I had a similar evolution and you described it so well. Be well and happy.
To JEWEL:
You asked me about English schools in Italy and if the need of these here:
Well there are now many private institutions specialized in teaching English,
Plus state schools have beefed up their english education within their yearly programs. Most of the state school are not really up to teaching a fair spoken english and concentrate on literature,reading and such,while private institutions concentrate on teaching immediate, colloquial english using mostly native British or American teachers.
I would say that fast effective english teaching method, particularly spoken english, has still some potential. Hope this answers your question…
Have a nice day!!!!
With all due respect, Scientology technology has been being ‘delivered’ for what? 60 years now? What is your opinion based on? Surely not the observable results. The present state of Scientology is rather disturbing, to put it mildly. The ‘church’ is in shambles, the church ‘tech’ is a grotesque mockery of it’s former self and the Scientology ‘divisions’ (FZ, Indie, Ron’s, COS, etc) seem to be the only thing multiplying in the world.
I imagine your response (if you provide one) will be something along the lines of: The Tech wasn’t ‘sanely’ applied, that’s the why. And if that’s your take, fair enough. The problem then would appear to be the insanity of Scientology adherents?
If you yourself were receiving and delivering the tech, sanely, and it took ‘you’ how many years? to walk away from the church……..
Nonetheless your blog has no doubt produced a much needed taste of the sanity you speak of, for those that are capable of receiving it.
I often hang out with Me, Myself, and I. We are pretty decent company. One of us is kind of a crank though.
Yes, very very true…..re truth. And yes, those that have died (especially those that have fought in *this* war against totalitarianism that the C of $ has used for some years now) will *always* be remembered. 🙂 Blessings to you, 2~ and to all who read this, too. Tory/Magoo
Wow, dude. You got all that from my simple request for clarification from Marty? That’s quite a creation! Your pride in it comes through well, so I won’t dismantle it. Instead, I won’t play the offered question-dodge game and will answer your (rhetorical?) questions.
1. Yes
2. Responsibility
Peace
Thank you. Beautiful post.
Bravo! Standing Ovation!
Hi Chris,
As I said before…I’m happy you responded. I don’t think Marty minds if we talk…it’s a blog and we’re talking about the topic. My guess is Marty feels you have just as much of a right to add your two cents as I do, if not more. (But then if I’m wrong…he’s welcome to correct me 🙂
Thank you for your ~very~ kind words! It’s been a wild ride, and thankfully I, too, had some wonderful people who stood up and spoke out long before I escaped out, and some who helped me wake up and get free….setting that same bar for me, too.
I appreciate your views. As I’ve said many times….we ALL count. All we need now are those that are hiding w/ their heads in the sand, pretending life is “Better” because they don’t speak up, to finally take the same stand against the human rights abuses persisting within C of $ because of these very people and celebrities. FREEDOM will *always* be a very cherished word.
In the words of the late, great Robert Vaughn Young, “This is like a relay race. People run it as long as they can…and then pass the baton onto someone else. Until then…may we each enjoy each other and our right to have different views and a place to express them. Peace!
You are probably more right than you think.
It must give DM great concern that somewhere on the International Base there roams free a Colonel Henning von Tresckow ( and other patriots’ ) waiting to commence Valkyrie.
It’s no wonder then that he resorts to security checks as the answer to all things. He “knows” those around him are riffraff and are up to no good. “I must find them before they get to me”, has to be his operating basis day to day – That never ends well
Marty, just as an FYI for you and rest of the readership whom may not be aware of it: since the moment you first publicly reappeared back in 2009, there has be a Black (as in Black Ops) PR campaign running against yourself (and Mike Rinder) with the propaganda message(s) (cast in various forms) that you could expose “crimes” that would instantly jail Miscavige, but won’t do so because: (a) you would be jailed yourself for your alleged involvement or (b) you are actually conspiring with Miscavige.
These PR messages have been and are being pushed hard on ESMB, WhyWeProtest (the Anonymous site) and in the comments of every online media article where you have been mentioned. Always, the identities which keep pushing these PR messages are pseudonomous and impossible to trace or identify without access to the site logs where they are posting. There are a number of suspects for the true source(s) of this Black PR campaign and Darth Midget is *not* the only one with an “axe to grind” against you, Marty.
In my opinion, all that has happened with these “Independent Scientologists” who are attacking you, is that they have foolishly allowed themselves to be duped by these Black PR Campaigns and are now doing the work of the cowardly scumbags running them.
Michael A. Hobson
Independent Scientologist
Thanks Bro.
OT TR 0 & TR 0 was the absolute bomb. When I was on staff I would have one of my juniors sit down with me and do those drills (though I got much more out of it than they did) and bang I was exterior and at cause and felt I could conquer anything in the universe, it was absolute theta, then I would carry on do my duties and get it done. Makes me wonder if that is what you all get from meditation as my own “meditation” was that dose of TR’s when I needed it amongst the enturbulation that went on being SEAF staff member.Even now when recalling doing OT TR 0 I go into another state of beingness and I’m not being glib and it motivates me to incorporate this once again into my daily activities of “meditation”.
Maria, not all my incredulity and comments were directed at you. Your post just provided a convenient spot to address some of the earlier utter bullshit in this thread in toto that would have us throw the baby out with the bathwater.
You are right. You did not say that this tech was the downfall of Scientology. That was someone else and I recognize that was not your position.
Forgive me for not qualifying may statements in my haste to quell the newly offered bullshit.
Your position is that LRH made a mistake by making the absolute statement:
AT THE ROOT OF EVERY BAD CONDITION WILL BE FOUND A SUPPRESSIVE PERSON
My demur with respect to THAT position is, not if you understand that ANY person can be the source of a thwarting that precipitates a bad condition, AND the fact that he did attempt to clarify in “LRH Talk to Worldwide Ethics Officers” that the “suppressive person” can be either an average Joe who thwarts another’s urge OR a sociopath. But I DO concur that there were mistakes along this line:
1) Making that lecture available only to HCO Personnel, and
2) Not adding to that absolute statement above, “OR ACTION” in the issue that was broadly released.
Was that LRH’s mistake? Who knows? He worked himself to death trying to get us dumb-asses to see and understand some universal, fundamental truths under the mistaken assumption that we could think with a whole brain, and single-handledly produced a more meaningful system and more fixes to it than Microsoft or Apple combined, despite his own peccadilloes. So, I’m certainly not going to blame the man. This is just a guess but it was probably someone in his office that dropped the ball. He did have to rely heavily on others to organize and codify the prolific amount of R&D that he left in his wake. Fuck, we’re still catching up.
I concur with you wholeheartedly that that oversight by whoever has been used by sociopaths and the robotic or untrained to cause tremendous damage, knowingly or unwittingly. Such is the power of this tech and, indeed, it does need to be rectified. As you stated in your last paragraph, herein is my effort toward such. Thank you for recognizing it. ❤
“Groups” are a whole subdivision of survival called (in Scientology) the Third Dynamic. Their formation and existence are part of the urge of all beings to survive.
There is nothing wrong with creating groups or having a group although many people do have buttons on the subject.
A simple definition of a group or third dynamic could be: “a bunch of people with a common purpose.
And that’s an OK thing.
The days of Louis Schwartz if you were SFOD.
Where did he end up?
I’m glad Marty recommended Stephen’s Mitchel’s translation of the Tao Te Ching. It’s by far the best..
Stephen Mitchell is an spectacularoet, translator, scholar, and anthologist. I just found out that he married to Byron Katie, who teaches a method of self-inquiry known as “The Work”. It started with a life changing realization: “I discovered that when I believed my thoughts, I suffered, but that when I didn’t believe them, I didn’t suffer, and that this is true for every human being. Freedom is as simple as that. I found that suffering is optional. I found a joy within me that has never disappeared, not for a single moment.” interesting couple!
I took a look at the opening chapter of Stephen’s translation of the Tao… It stopped me in myt tracks. This text is so powerful, it stops traffic..…. “The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao… the name that can be named is not the eternal name. The unnamable is the eternally real.. naming is the origin of all particular things..”My view is that this is why language was invented, to say just this.
When I was in my 20s I read “The Way of the Pilgrim”, a 19th century spiritual classic in the Russian Orthodox tradition, as related by a nineteenth-century wandering hermit. The pilgrim is taught by his “Starets”, his master, the secret, sacred prayer of the heart, the prayer which he says must be prayed with each breath, even when one is asleep. The prayer which opens the door to all realization. I was fascinated by that. So I went to India and went from ashram to ashram in the Himalaya looking for the Master who could show such prayer, in Hindi it’s called the sacred mahamatra, which the lips cannot say. I did find that Master, but that’s another story..
Back to Marty’s post… “if you blame someone else, there is no end to blame” Yes so true and especially after reading Lao Tse, it jumps at you.
For me I see that if I blame someone else, I start believing in my own blaming thoughts. And with that begins the end of my ability to feel care, kindness, compassion, love, all these things that we were created to feel. I also stop seeing the wonders of life, and my reality becomes the shadow that I am the one casting..
There is such a freedom, such an elation in taking the high road and choosing kindness over blame.
Coming soon to a Scientology bookstore near you, a conversation very much like this one:
“I think active Scientology ethics is defined by how it’s used, and that is as punishment.”
So true. And there are people that use the tech as punishment. They use training and auditing to punish people and cave them in and blow them off the bridge.
And to set people up for losses.
I had one person by here so hell bent on setting everyone up for a loss he never bothered to ask one person for a success story after “delivering tech” here for almost two months. He didn’t even bother. he had not set one person up for a win, he set everyone up for a loss, and was so fixed on that mission that he did not bother to ask anyone for a success story. That was never his intention.
Thanks, Martin. I had the pleasure of listening to John a number of times in the late 60s. He continues to inspire me to this day.
Was it ever ready for such changes?
It is ironic in view of your equanimity that a splinter group attacks you.
The selfish Mr. Miscavige and the conceited Mr. Cruise fail to reform
that which should be reformed. Indeed, Mr. Miscavige, the great
technology “truncator”, only hinders the day of reform and
further tangles the tangle. The Pope resigned and, in the
end, this may prove correct for Catholics. There is less doubt
concerning Miscavige the Great. Miscavige can either resign
or spearhead the setting right of what has been overturned.
The splinter group only treads on even a more dangerous path
in attempting to apply that which is flawed.
George M. White
Maria, but your point is covered in Tech.
Lack of hating can result in mistakes.
Isn’t this the key outpoint in the Church of Scientology time-track?
Where untrained teens can rule over Orgs?
“Have you not just made the assumption that A. Scientology is broken and B. It MUST be fixed?
Perhaps this is a semantic point but I think you’ll find Marty has never said A or B above. ”
With respect to A, Marty wrote a book entitled “What Is Wrong with Scientology”. With respect to B, he wrote another book entitled, ”
What do you conclude from that?
With respect to your questions:
1. Yes
2. Responsibility
Typo: Para 3 should read: With respect to B, he wrote another entitled, “The Scientology Reformation”.
Perfect!
Thanks!
I am currently using meditation since a few years, for the main part breath meditation, mindfulness meditation and analytic meditation. I noticed important improvements in terms of tone level, for example I am free from unwanted angers I had in the past.
I had also important improvements in the past with fundamental auditing, such as grades 2 and 4.
But I now rely on meditation for several reasons:
– Less devT: I don’t have the problem to find an auditor
– I get trained handling my own case in solo, that is useful in situations where there is no auditor around, for example the death event, or to cope with any situation hard to confront.
– Meditation is a daily practice, that helps improving the situation on a daily basis, when you cannot get auditing daily (with the exception of Solo NOTs, but that is limited in time).
– Meditation improves health, according to many studies (better immune response, gray matter density increase, protection of telomeres …)
– Meditation is fully concentrated in present time and does not ask to look in the past. That is particularly helpful to me, as I have a poor memory that prevents me from taking full benefits from scn processing (no pictures, no perceptics, …)
Very well said. Hear, hear.
Louis Schwartz was on staff at the NY org in 1968 and later spent many years at FSO (and may still be there for all I know).
lol! “ME, MYSELF and I”,,,,it’s another Holy Trinity (but only on the theta side of the scale).
The blame game can be so subtle. Last night I was watching a program about the Catholic Church in late 1400. The story told depicted religious insanity in a manner that is not often seen. As the story unfolded I noticed myself projecting blame and condemnation onto the Catholic Church and especially the upper hierarchy of the church (oh they were so evil!). lol! Well, when I get opportunities like this I have a forgiveness thing I do that works really well to as-is the lies that I’ve been for so long perceiving to be truth and giving false meaning and value to.
There’s a saying that goes something like…holding onto a grievance is like taking poison and hoping the other person dies. At this point on my journey through space and time, I am continually discovering grievances that I have been holding onto (constantly self administering poison to self). Thankfully, when discovered, these situations can be quickly and easily dispelled.
It’s a choice isn’t it? And the choice is always mine. Life the classroom or Life the prison. I can choose Love or I can choose hate. Like the guy sings in the video below, I choose Love.
Ditto!
Marty,
I long hoped that Mike Rinder or others would expose the actual OSA staff plotters and wordsmiths, who do these detailed “handling programs” pulling from your supposed “case” buttons, and so forth, those OSA staff who fabricate the targets on your “handling” program, to entangle you and divert you, Marty, in discussions, are just following their program patterns they’ve done for decades now.
The OSA staff who do these “programs” that have the targets, feeding these people who write these long screeds to you, need to just be conversed with, and spoken to, and communicated with.
The more you break the patterns they expect you to knee jerk get caught up in, the more they have to re-group and rewrite new targets to deal with you.
The OSA staff caught up in these layers of “handling” steps against you, and the outside Scientologists drawn in to assist with the delivery of the OSA “buttons” selected to entangle you and counter your effects, need to be historically laid bare and talked about.
More OSA history please, more how they work, more names, and turn the tables right into their daily lives there in OSA in the HGB building, where one or a few of them scrutinize what to do next with you.
Just keep hopscotching around and breaking your expected patterns!
Devote a little time to having some fun back at them, outwitting whoever is behind this wordsmithing entrapment bullshit.
Chuck
“For me I see that if I blame someone else, I start believing in my own blaming thoughts. And with that begins the end of my ability to feel care, kindness, compassion, love, all these things that we were created to feel. I also stop seeing the wonders of life, and my reality becomes the shadow that I am the one casting..
There is such a freedom, such an elation in taking the high road and choosing kindness over blame.”
Ditto!
Piece of advice. ARC jams up their thinking process.
Because it is expected, the EP of the Suppressed Person rundown, is for the alleged “SP” to make a positive advance at them, I use this technique, and have used it repeatedly, to break up their patterned expectancies from me the “SP”.
What a completely turned around use of ARC I’m proposing here. But if you use ARC genuinely, humanly, on Scientologists who have labelled you SP, it works, because it is bottom level the human thing to do, anyways, and undercuts all the fake crap going on.
Paul — this is such a lovely post. Thank you.
And how true — believing ones own thoughts does lead to suffering. But that is such a truly difficult concept to get as our thoughts seem so true and so us.
But that is the lie. Thoughts are only possible reflections for what is … and at times poor reflections more like refractions. Like the reflection of a perfectly still pond, a perfect duplicate but those trees do not give off oxygen, cannot become a house. They are just “thoughts”
It’s incredibly difficult to separate ourselves from our thoughts — we are so accustomed to them and find such comfort in them.
But beware — those thoughts become clothing which we constantly add to or change and are always hiding our true naked self – the heart.
“It’s only with the heart that one can see rightly …” Saint-Exupery
LOL!
Thank you, and you as well!
Louis was an FSO SO member back in the early 90s and married to a lady named Carole. He had some pretty serious medical problems and at some point (also the 90’s) I didn’t see him around Flag anymore.
I remember Margot and Maureen cracking up in the Super Course also. They were fun times. There were 3 Maureens in the org back then. I bet I know you too.
Thank you!
Great story!
I sadly recall that when LRH made missing withholds a huge penalty for auditors, that even the preclears began to be made guilty for the penalties our good auditors would get, if we preclears were to successfully hide our overts and get our good auditors in trouble!
What an extensive system of thought manipulation, all the way into sessions, making people as preclears feel guilty for harming their auditors’ goodness!
To me, there is also problem with how the rules have resulted in the groups’ pressures on each other.
In the freezone, there is NO such backlash penalties into the minds of the preclears,, no thoughts they will get their auditors in trouble, should the preclears simply not be ready to give up this or that overt, at some point in their “case” progress.
The penalty SP high crime acts stacked up, have just a huge effect on the minds of the whole bubble official Scientology world, both auditors and preclears and staffs.
And complaining and undermining or shortcutting the heavy ethics rules is also a high crime, so it’s a vicious internal Catch 22 circle within official Scientollgy.
The only major loophole, I continually see, is internal reform by Exec Strata and Snr C/S Int Office taking back over their duties, and also by giving AVC Int the authority to really sanely NOT apply the rules viciously.
Better, for official Scientologists caught up in too many injustices, just quite and go to the freezone and independent Scientology community.
Prices are cheaper, and no use of the rules to suppress.
Hi Graduated,
This snippet of thread between Maria and you is wonderful and, from my perspective, leaves us much better off than we were without it.
Thank-you.
And of course thanks once again to our host, Marty, for yet another GREAT post.
Love to all,
Vic
Hey Dan, it will be an interesting year for us re the NFL. I believe the Seahawks have 10 picks in the upcoming draft — which should be good for us — but then I see that the 49ers have 11. These 2 teams could be the teams to watch in 2013. One of the Seahawks concerns re Matt Flynn is that they do NOT have 3rd string QB. BTW — do you speak Swedish? I understand that your “free” education, healthcare, etc. is paid for by very high taxes — how does that sit with the workers? Especially the wealthy workers? I mean — are any of them leaving Sweden? I would think so which begs the question — is Socialism sustainable? In a sense that concern leans back into this blog i.e. will Marty’s lenience to dissenting opinions challenge the sustainability of this blog? Or how long will Marty want to keep it going? Will DM finally beat Marty down before DM either dies or is incapacitated? Where is the help? I just finished Jenna’s book — interesting insight but she was treated like no other S.O. member would have been treated. One of the concerns I had at the conclusion of her book with it’s anti-LRH and anti-Scn rant is what is the stop (really) on the likes of Ronnie, Bitty (and I can think of others e.g. Broeker) going public with what they know. I guess we just have to wait for Marty’s upcoming bigger book. It was such a letdown when Debbie cashed in her integrity.
Yes and no SKM. He certainly did say that a lack of hatting can result in mistakes and as I recall, criminal behavior too. The problem is that the state of the hat type materials is such that you have to sort through so much to get the correct data, with so much judgment and training to do so that the individuals pick up on the ABSOLUTES found in the materials anyway. For the plus 30 years I was involved in Scientology, this was known and seldom implemented or when it was the checksheets themselves focused on the ABSOLUTES as clay demos, etc. Then they get treated as LAW and the WORD OF GOD.
I like to know who they are.
Because that person or persons should be invited to blow and defect.
They should be communicated to and told there is a sympathetic understanding group of people out here, where they can sanely land, should they choose to get out of the group they are in at the moment.
I think it best to invite the players helping execute the “handling programs” to come out and enjoy the freedoms of the outer world.
Blow! Defect! It’s much nicer out in the outer world!
Marty,
Your correct pinpointing of blame ties in very closely with your post on labeling. They are both negitive traits one begins to wear as they get deeper into cult-like thinking. I know this from experience and I am very happy that I have changed completely in this regard. And that only happened when I was willing to open my mind to other ideas and philosophies. There are many good ones out there that hold truths – also in common with Scientology. Truth is truth no matter who says it. No one philosophy can say they own truth. I admire all you have done and I enjoy reading about the journey you are on. Best wishes.
One of those Maureens was Louis Schwartz wife.
Yes. And I am interested in the whole internet/social media thing as a new form or social interaction. I think we are in only the beginning stages of where this will go. Maybe at some point an online group will be as valid and real to me as a face to face group. I’m not saying it’s not a real group(s) here, just not as real to me. Some real things such as exchange of ideas can occur, but so far to audit, train or make any significant progress beyond kicking ideas around and perhaps some light organizing requires a live group with fixed terminals in my opinion.
I think to have an effective, viable group that will have any longevity and stability to it requires set terminals and clearly communicated and agreed purposes and goals and all that stuff.
Humans are just too wishy washy (sorry humans). Without that stuff is’s like trying to herd cats. http://youtu.be/Pk7yqlTMvp8
Thanks, Vic. 🙂
I absoluteley hear ya, Maria.
It’s nevertheless a lack of hatting, which results in the situation.
The same is true for the indoctrination of new Scientologists in KSW#1 instead of “How to study Scientology” first.
I agree with you that Ron said many times “THIS is the MOST important datum” or “this is derrived from the LAW of NATURE”.
Well. The problem lies in the inhibition of a beings self-determinism to judge for himself whether the datum is true or not. And in fact, as you said, some Bulletins are on checksheets whereas others are not – and then, even though LRH wrote more to a subject, the data is not well known or even denied.
But however, LRH wrote it and we know it he got it right.
Jason Beghe talked about something similar regarding lectures and Rons habbit to begin the lectures with “Now we got all the answers to make Clears…”
You see. And in the next lecture the same thing happend (with a little bit different phrasing).
Was it LRHs intent to fool us?
I don’t think so.
As I have not done the BC I don’t know if someone can truly master all the different Tech issues (so called contradictions in the Tech writings). But I very much think it is possible.
But it will require self-determinism about data without evaluation from external terminals – very much so as Marty described in one of his Blog-Entries last month (How to study Scientology).
For me the lack of hatting in the Sea-Org is the Key Outpoint for the downfall of Scientology, Inc.
When arbitrary rules and “policy” is enforced upon producing people and they don’t have the “authority” to back-flash (and no one to go to for justice) the game is lost. And it is.
Look at the Empire of Miscavige. Is there anyone trained for his post?
Are they producing the VFPs LRH asked for? No, they’re playing a different game since decades.
Graduated: I am glad you cleared up the point that you jumped in as an opportunity to air your viewpoint on this general subject area rather than a specific response to what I said. I figured that was what you were doing, so thanks!
Between us little birdies, I threw down the gauntlet the way I did in hopes that others would jump in and really flesh out the discussion with diversity of insight. And you and Carcha and the others that jumped in sure did that! I think its great! Argument or debate can be such a fruitful way to flush out distortions, flaws, missing information, etc., bringing a much greater clarity — especially where the participants are sincere and informed.
There is a wonderful learning technique used in Tibetan Buddhism. Novice monks enter into debates. They take a line from the sutras. Then one argues against, the other for. They whale away at each other. Very noisy! When someone is tripped up, the Tibetans all laugh, hoot and howl because you contradicted yourself. This method clarifies, builds composure, breaks people out of shyness, and makes them think for themselves even while being opposed in noisy groups of people.
When I first began on blogs and forums on the subject of Scientology, I had the hardest time with critics (from the mildest to the most extreme LRH bashers) and trolls who are just in it for the lulz. Over time I came to love debating with them, they forced me to really consider my position, look at new information and hold my position with equanimity or a good natured smack down. Eventually I found that I was completely willing to just say — I do not agree with you and I am not backing down, or I would call them on their shit, or acknowledge that they had indeed put their finger on an important issue — i.e. I found I could just call it like it is – no apologies, no indecisiveness, and no hostility.
I think this kind of activity is extremely beneficial and really, core truths (even if they are only true for you) are not going to be destroyed by debate! But they can be if you have no skill in holding your own position or really have never considered what your OWN position actually is.
So thanks everyone! ❤
Chuck…..I have to say this as I feel it’s a KEY point re Scios still “in”. As a Flag trained and Interned Security Checker….whenever I hear “Blow”…what do I think of? “The person must have overts—that’s why people blow”- L Ron Hubbard. (Outside of “BlownforGood”…whose story is SO good and aligns with his nick). So I suggest people just say “leave”.
“Defect” even has a tone that one is doing s/t wrong by leaving (imnsho) when n/t could be farther from the truth. I know of all peeps, you KNOW this…but I still hear that Scio lingo being used. I remember OSA using that against the Critics: “See? They even admit they are blowing. They KNOW they have overts by leaving”. It’s a small point…but imnsho..key.
“Just leave–take back YOUR life”. See? No overts, no bad deeds…enjoy one’s freedom—true freedom—w/out ANY barriers $cientology creates for peeps. As always, Love to you 🙂 Tory/Magoo
PS: I don’t care “who” wrote some crap to Marty. If he wanted to out the person, he no doubt would have. My guess is it’s an anonymous nick..aka: OSA op who sent it to begin with. If not, I guess it still doesn’t matter much. It isn’t the who that he’s talking about…it’s “Blame” in general and what matters about it.
I like this that you wrote, too: “I think it best to invite the players helping execute the “handling programs” to come out and enjoy the freedoms of the outer world.” <<<< Perfect!
Wonderful!!!
Thanks, Maria. I enjoyed our exchange. I enjoy few things more than an exchange of ideas between rational, informed people – genuine two-way-communication (2WC) in which both parties come away with new insights. It is a characteristic of a high-toned person to seek new viewpoints (ref: Chart of Human Evaluation) and therefore look forward to further such exchanges with you.
However, I do not share your enthusiasm for debate. I know the subject well; was on debate teams; could argue any side of an issue with equanimity or verbally rodeo the slimiest reporter into stuttering silence in record time. It IS useful when one HAS to deal with an asshole. And Internet trolls use debating techniques all the time to stir up shit. But engaging a psychotic will only prompt them to discharge on you. So, like the wise martial arts Master would do, it’s better to just walk away from such types, even if it means allowing them to have the last word. “The man who has bettered a fool has accomplished nothing.” (Source unknown)
At its best, the object of debate is the production of a “synthesis” – the combination of ideas to form a new theory or system. But such synthesized ideas are rarely revelatory of any real truths. They are normally a compromise of opposing realities – a “new reality”. And as we know, reality is not truth but an illusion.
In debate, someone wins and someone loses. And that determination is only made in the eye of the spectating beholder. Whoever matched the spectator’s tone level will be seen to have “won”, irrespective of rationality.
Like a court trial, debate is a classic “games condition” – game conditions are: attention, identity, effect on opponents, no-effect on self, can’t have on opponents and goals and their areas, have on tools of play, own goals and field, purpose, problems of play, self-determinism, opponents, the possibility of loss, the possibility of winning, communication, non-arrival. (FOT, pp. 93-94). The debate game consists of employing or pointing out falsehoods to “better” your opponent, irrespective of truth (see List of fallacies – A fallacy is incorrect argument in logic and rhetoric resulting in a lack of validity, or more generally, a lack of soundness. Fallacies are either formal fallacies or informal fallacies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies).
The Reverse Scientologist accomplishes the above to nullify and dominate others by using Scientological jargon in the form of evaluation and invalidation intended to introvert and silence one:
• “That’s natter!” – Shifts attention to one’s overt acts of transgressions by inference. It also serves to stop any criticism, regardless of whether such criticism carping and judgmental or objectively disinterested and patently obvious.
• “That’s 1.1!” – Inference that one is at the emotional tone level of a chronically suppressive person (i.e. 1.1 – covert hostility). The user often says this from 1.5 (Anger) on the tone scale – a tone just .04 higher than the tone he/she is condemning – a fact which has escaped their awareness until indicated. It also serves to re-enforce the false concept of a groupthink synthetic valence in which one “must never drops below 2.5 (Boredom)” on the emotional tone scale (irrespective of the technical datum that sanity can be measured by one’s ability to freely move up and down the tone scale appropriate to the circumstances at hand).
• “That’s an enemy line!” – Inference that you are actively forwarding fallacies about Scientology or Scientologists made up by those who would destroy it/them. It also serves to stop any criticism, regardless of whether such criticism carping and judgmental or objectively disinterested and patently, obvious true.
I’m sure one can think of others, so your call for false data stripping is very well taken.
So, those are the inherent problems with debating in an open-tent forum such as this. Accordingly, I refuse to engage in online debate as it is a pointless promulgation of falsehoods and an enturbulating escalation of low-toned emotions memorialized for posterity. But I always welcome a rational online 2WC with high-toned and informed people such as you, as when done without the debate game fallacies employed it can expose new valid viewpoints and thruthful insights. ❤
Simple Thetan, I’m kind of late in my ack to you but 100% agreement from me on all you’ve clarified above.
And I can’t imagine what would be the “think” of a CS to send the PC who has physically recovered via correction of auditing an engram to ETHICS? I’m actually shuddering right now at 1) cleaning a clean, 2) punishing an upstat 3) Invalidating both auditor and PC…all I can think of right now but certainly more than enough to plow a PC right back into the old bankaroo.
Good point. Leave rather than “blow” or “defect”.
To me though, defecting has a honorable tradition, in my mind, I grew up on US Army bases in Germany, and defecting was absolutely an honorable route for East Germans and other eastern EU citizens escaping to the “west”.
But “leave” is what someone would think is normal, so “leave” I agree is a better term.
One could use the term “withdraw support” (as per Anne Rand in “Atlas Shrugged” – refusing to contribute to the motion, and therefore refusing to add more to the continuing overt. One does not have to leave, exactly, but it might be a logical conclusion. I didn’t abandon my 3rd dynamic, but I am applying tough love to it. I still care, and am willing to help, but I refuse to contribute to the overt motion.)
Hi Paul, wonderful post! In my estimation you posed the basic basic question that every single being is knowingly or unkowningly asking and answering in each tiny moment of time. And the answer chosen will mean either spiritual freedom or spiritual imprisonment.
“Maybe what matters is where, in which space, I spend every second. Do I spend each breath in gratitude, or in judgment?”
Scott, below is an excerpt from COHA, under the process R2-48: SEPARATENESS. Your comment about “rejoining the main body of theta” seems to be at variance with what LRH wrote there. But you may have a later LRH reference, or perhaps a Buddhist-like viewpoint, or it may be a matter of your own knowingness on the subject. If you don’t mind, I would really appreciate it if you would elaborate on this interesting topic.
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“This was the process which told me that we are not natively sprung from one ‘common body of theta’. If you run Separateness, accentuating the difference in unity of a thetan from other thetans and things and spaces, he continues to gain in tone. If you run this process in reverse, how he is the same as, or is connected to various items, he continues to dwindle in tone. By handling this latter process one can press a thetan down into the rock-bottom state of aberration. We have long known that differentiation was the keynote of sanity, and that identification was the basis of aberration. This fact is utilized in processing by running separateness.
“It can be concluded that the thetan is an individual separate from every other thetan and that he has never been part of any other thetan. There are many ‘phony’ incidents implanted on the track whereby an individual is made to feel that he is a result of explosion having occurred to a larger body. He is also made to feel that he was at one time ‘whole’ and is now only a splinter of himself. This is only an effort to reduce him. He has always been himself, he will always be himself, down to a time when he is entirely identified with this universe, at which time he would no longer be himself simply because he would no longer be conscious.” (COHA)