The following is an excerpt from the book Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior. I am interested to know whether anyone else ever had an encounter with a nut job bestowed with Scientology high priest status. If so, did you ever wonder how that could be given the representations made in policy letter Keeping Scientology Working? You think John and his like were not handled ruthlessly enough in their training? You think ruthlessness was given such a positive emphasis that thugs like him were encouraged?
From Chapter Nine:
I was also to be on training courses five hour a day, in the staff course room. There I met the head of staff training and auditing, John Colleto.
Colleto was a Class VIII auditor – a very advanced level of auditor training and, presumably, skill. Attaining this level included the right for Colleto to use the title “Dean of Technology.” The fact that Pubs staff were under the care of such a highly trained Scientologist was a big part of Billy Kahn’s recruitment pitch. Despite the hype and his lofty title, John turned out to be a dull, serious, bored, overweight, bespectacled man in his late twenties. For someone who was supposed to have attained the higher levels of training and spirituality in Scientology, he struck me as a pretty troubled individual.
My assigned study period meant I’d be alone for five hours each day under Colleto’s supervision. He showed me no warmth – in fact, what I often got instead was disdain.
The texts for my courses consisted of organizational policy letters and directives, written over a span of many years. They were full of Scientology organizational jargon, which made study a grinding task. Adding to the difficulty was the fact that the jargon itself had evolved over time, so that writings from different periods had different terminology. Sometimes my only hope for making sense of what I read was to ask Colleto for clarifications. But it seemed whenever I asked his help, he would take the opportunity to leave me feeling stupid. I began to withdraw into myself and just try to grind it out alone.
During study time one day, I began dozing off. “Wake up,” snapped Colleto.
“I must have gone by a word I didn’t get,” I said, referring to the principle from Hubbard’s study technology that when someone passes a misunderstood word, they can become foggy or dope off.
Instead of helping me find what word I didn’t understand (as course supervisors are trained to do), Colleto pulled out the Scientology Technical Dictionary. Opening the book, he showed me the definition of “implant” – a technical term from auditing technology, meaning “a painful and forceful means of overwhelming a being with artificial purposes or false concepts, in a malicious attempt to control and suppress him.”
I thought I understood Colleto’s point. In Scientology auditing, one recalls moments of pain and unconsciousness from his past, reviewing them until they are discharged of the mental energy they contain, and their destructive mental and spiritual effects. By reviewing and relieving enough such incidents, the state of Clear can eventually be reached.
“Yeah, I get it. I suppose these implants can come up during one’s auditing.”
“They do come up. Everybody has them. How many do you think you might have?”
“I don’t know. I haven’t had any auditing. So I suppose I’ll find out I have a few.”
Leaning across the table and fixing me with an icy stare, just inches from my face, Colleto said, “Try a few million.” At that he got up, went back to his desk, picked up some papers and started reading
Moving On Up a Little Higher 
Uh? I’m sure that didn’t help anything. I can barely see his point now. Did you think he had one at the time? I can see that causing some Q&A.
Now days we would just say, WTF?
Wow what an asshole! I just ran into SO “higher ups” who had those traits. They always intimidated the hell out of me. I was considered the little wifey so was never given much thought…which was totally fine by me!
The guy sounds like a real douche. Are all Class VIIIs like that?
“A great nation is like a great man:
When he makes a mistake, he realizes it.
Having realized it, he admits it.
Having admitted it, he corrects it.
He considers those who point out his faults
as his most benevolent teachers.
He thinks of his enemy
as the shadow that he himself casts.”
― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
Sounds like Mr. John may have had a few remaining unhandled implants himself. As well as missing a few basic principles like ARC.
I don’t think they were Class VIIIs, but I was supervised by 10-15 different sups on different courses in the OOT program and I would say 4 or 5 of them had an attitude similar to this guy or worse. There was one guy named Bruce and I cant think of his last name right now, probably because we had to call him “sir” all the time. He was seething with hatred for students. He was suping the theory for the TR’s courses- Pro Tr’s and Upper Indoc. I was given a spot check and flunked on something that wasnt in the bulletin. I pointed it out that it was not in there and he made me start the course over from the beginning. Another time I asked if I could use the bathroom, which in itself is degrading IMO. He yelled at me in front of everyone and said no. These are just some examples. I got sick and had to go to isolation. When I came back he was gone to iso himself. When he came back he was working in the Dissem Division. I assumed there was some push for the Flag sups to “be tough” and force students through or something. I found Flag to be a terrible place. It was insanity.
Ouch!
Gotta love that ‘overboarded’ (severe baptism), Class VIII “total certainty.”
They were supposed to be the enforcers, but they often don’t know what they are enforcing. When pressed, some resort to quoting from the hidden, secret Class VIII lectures, which are a mish-mash of extremely valuable tidbits and unfortunately, also some time-wasting, confusing contradictions (not to mention it remains officially a ‘hidden data line’ for those faithful to scripture).
I’ll take some of the VIII tools and put them to use, but as far as training, I’ll stick with Class VI. Auditing at interest, and auditing the client at his/her interest – as opposed to the the enforcement band, in which more VIIIs than not, are stuck (LRH once described the phenomena as “suppressively trained”).
Those VIIIs who emerged with their humanity intact, however, are truly great people and can have high value in supervising others in a spirit of cooperation. Seen that, too.
I encountered a Flag-trained Senior Course Supervisor-trained sup. He had the highest certs in sup training at the time in the mid-’70s. He had the bug-eyed stare, very robotic in his “insistence” and assertiveness, and horrible breath when he was trying to get in your face and be what he thought was “standard.” Oi! Somewhere along the line he started insisting that you wrote down your question as a student rather than ask him verbally. Then he’d write down a response and give it to you. Very wierd. Looking back I wondered if he’d gotten crammed (incorrectly) on his sup comm cycle and was trying to prove he was doing it right. He wasn’t OT, and I believe he was Class IV, not VIII, but he had the highest supervisor training and that’s what he was like. Not someone you wanted to have around while you were trying to figure out what things meant back in the day without tech dictionaries. He eventually blew.
We did have an OT and Class VIII on staff for a while, as Senior C/S, (late ’70s or early ’80s) who I was wary of from day one when I found out that he had been a big-time drug dealer years prior and had paid for thousands and thousands of dollars of training and Bridge with his drug profits. Somehow I didn’t think he would get the same benefits from the services as the next guy who worked a legit job for his money. He had several very obvious and strange physical mannerisms that would just not quit. Even had them when sitting in at the Examiner now and again when no one else was there to do after session exams. He didn’t ever audit anyone which was the strangest thing of all. He ended up in a horrific car crash and was on life support, then he passed.
I was too green and messed up as an org staff member and was more intimidated by gruff “unreasonable execs,” so was scared to voice my questions. Soon though I had a boyfriend and then husband who was the ED and he got the vicious product-officering phone calls from the FOLO, and—big discovery—all the nasty stuff seemed to be coming from there. We had a few Sea Org missions over the years too, for various reasons, and none of them had the slightest bit of friendliness. They were total assholes except the ones who came to recruit for the SO. Hmmmm.
Once I joined the Sea Org I found out that it is the group who is supposed to see that things were done standardly, true products gotten by doing it right. That was our responsibility. It never added up.
Joining the SO ended up being the biggest mistake of my life. I was already getting good results and happy pcs DESPITE the entheta interruptions and “product-officering” from Sea Org jerks. I joined the SO because it was totally misrepresented to me by two recruit missionaires and I wanted to do what they said I would be doing.
Well, sorry this went on for so long, but I am sure glad I am out! And my org-level auditor training was what helped me see how nuts it was and that the SO applied policy when it was convenient, not as…..Policy!
With the new indie activities I believe we are situated to have self-determined and pan-determined people training because they really want to, not because they have been forced to or yelled at within an inch of their lives to complete that course before 2PM!!!!
Loving your ‘Memoirs’ book, by the way. The writing is excellent. The story intriguing.
Marty, as someone who appears to be a deep thinker, a student of philolsophy, more well read than I’ll ever be, how did you get so deep into scientology, which seems to me, to be pure, unadulterated bullshit? Once again, my interest in COS is that when I go downtown in my town, Clearwater, I’m made to feel uncomfortable by these brainwashed freaks. Although after reading your blog for a couple of years, you do seem to be trying to distance yourself from the madness of COS.
My opinion: all Scientology material is encoded. (computer term: you have a random pattern of symbols that do not make any sense) You have to decode the material first and then those data make sense. L. Ron Hubbard did write lots of words and spoke lots of words. Those words (a bit different to computer encoding of data) do make sense if undecoded. But the meaning or you could say workability cannot be seen or grasped. First you have to know the key and then decode it. Then you can understand the meaning and application. Buddhist do the same. If one applies it you feel much better. But you have not attained „OT“.
The keys within Buddhism are only passed on a personal level. If someone feels that you are the right person elegible to know then he gives you the key. Later, if it turns out that you are not elegible and misuse your skills he kills you as „soul“ and takes away all your ability. That is his responsibility as teacher.
This has always been this way all time in this and earlier universes. The names change but this principle is one of the top spiritual laws that is followed through existence.
And that also holds true for Scientology.
Thats all to say from my side about the dull and criminal application of Scientology currently virulent here on Earth.
Good Lord!! 😮
That’s supposed to be a shocked face smiley (colon+’o’). 😦
Most people can spot an asshole like John fairly well. A high-toned individual with the right training can identify one a hundred yards away. However, trying to create a system to spot these types and filter them out is doomed to failure if it does not include observation and analysis by a self-determined thetan. Too many of his type can rise through the ranks because they got all the boxes marked off on their checksheets, and nobody ever had the chance to say “Sorry, you don’t get to be a Sup until you show some ARC”.
Same thing with dissemination. Miscavige thinks his Div 6 screens can take the place of a live being, aware and in comm with the reaching individual. Ain’t never gonna work.
John Colleto is dead. He killed himself after murdering his wife and nearly killing Marty who was trying to stop him at the time. It’s in Marty’s latest book, Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior.
Michael A. Hobson
Independent Scientologist
Reblogged this on 31 Factors.
I wonder why John, the “Dean of Technology”, showed you the definition of implant instead of asking you the standard question “is there a word…”.
It seems his KSW regarding Study Tech and Course Supervision was way out.
Was the term implant part of the material at all?
What a stupid idiot.
No. So, I take it you weigh in that KSW was probably not applied vigorously enough on his training?
This was before Miscavige was a pup.
It’s a long story – 326 pages worth, http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?_encoding=UTF8&field-author=Mark%20%22Marty%22%20Rathbun&search-alias=books&sort=relevancerank. Also might explain to you why folk in Clearwater make you feel uncomfortable.
Yes, I love psycholoentology too!
Thinking about it, there was a distinct separation in the Sups. There were helpful, friendly, warm and caring sups with good ARC and there were hardcore RTC-style sups. The good sups seemed to be a lesser species- in fear of the attitude that was dominant. Like they were quietly trying to do it the right way. There was a valence that was infecting people like a disease, but there were some left who were still themselves.
Schorsch, I don’t know what you take, but you should consider to stop it.
I think that if a person has a tendency to being an asshole then they will find opportunities to be an asshole in Scn or the S.O. It is the same with any institution: the military, police, schools, hospitals (a la Nurse Ratchet). Same with the assholes in the S.O. we knew at the base. Most people were NOT assholes and they were governed by the same PLs and FOs as the assholes, yet they did not act like assholes. (I am more and more coming to think that life and the whole world exists as a test for the individual. Everything a person runs into in his or her life is an opportunity to learn or to ignore learning.)
By the way, Marty, I just finished your book and really, really enjoyed it. You filled in a LOT of blanks for me about what went on during various periods. So a big thanks for taking the time to put it all down. Tony Ortega slammed it, which, having now read it, is about what I would expect from someone who refuses to experience any part of the subject subjectively but who depends on the experiences of those who do and did for his livelihood. I understand he is writing a book. I can tell right now it is going to be a piece of crap. The guy has been writing about Scn for 20 years and never opened Self Analysis. He should watch The Master and then do the window and wall process for as long as Freddie Quell.
Hey Schorsch, that’s a good viewpoint to have… thanks. Indicates to me actually…
‘the dull and criminal application of Scientology currently virulent here on Earth”
Marty, yes, but just point 4: Teaching correctly the correct technology.
As I have read that chapter on your book, the guy was a lunatic and a killer (I mean I had heard you had some weird incident happen to you when in the SO, but when I read the book, I couldn’t believe what was happening with a “Dean of Technology”) and I don’t know how the hell he made it up there????
Beats me and it’s gross what happened afterwards with you and this guy.
Sorry, as I said before (yesterday it may be), my experiences with Scientology vary drastically with the ones you made.
The Policy Letter and the way it is written, applied as a single reference, is not the concept I have of Keeping Scientology Working.
If I think of Keeping Scientology Working (which is a activity) I don’t automatically think of the KSW#1 PL. In study tech there is the principle of “thinking conceptually”. The concept can expand with further study. In case of “Keeping Scientology Working” (which is a whole series from which number one addresses the training of auditors + the application of Auditing) responsibility would increase simultaneously with the improvement of insight. Of course this would be only possible on a self-determined basis by the student/practitioner. Hard-core indoctrination, use of too hard penalties for stupid reasons, training without ARC et al will always result in less freedom (= more robotism) (all covered in Scientology materials btw.) and since circuits won’t grasp the fruits and benefits of Scientology they will hardly keep it working.
So, to answer your question: “So, I take it you weigh in that KSW was probably not applied vigorously enough on his training?”
No, I mean he didn’t perform his duties.
You see Marty there you go again stating a situation but not giving a “SOLUTION or referring to the SOLUTION as was already presented by LRH in the policy called “THE WORLD OUT OF COMM EVAL”>The solution LRH presented in that policy was to “Ensure that every Course Sup be complleted on Grade IV EXPANDED BEFORE THEY ARE ALLOWED TO RUN A COURSE ROOM.. ” YOU JUST IN A SERVICE FAC MANNER DSCRIBED A PROBLEM WITH NO SOLUTION. I have seen Cramming Officers and Sups do the same thing. Instead of caving into it I saw that the individuals were screwed up and noted that none of there actions were according to policy. I was also Suped by Supervisors who were personally trained by LRH and they were a joy to be around..
Lol Marty.
I have encountered a few jerks of this type during my journey into Scientology. For one thing, these types probably also have the uncertainties that thee and me have but don’t have the intestinal fortitude to confront them. Instead they like to use the make-wrong and introvert techniques.
I have met some who seem to have very strong realities of inter-galactic wars and implanting . As if to say they had made it through the trials and tribulations and now were going to hold my hand through the tough parts. (which they never did)
This was all just a cover up of their incompetence and weak integrity.
Thanks for the nice laugh.
Thanks Dan. I appreciate your feedback.
To answer you original question on the post you did, I think that the Why in Scientology is the words vs the concepts…. One can whistle the tune but doesn’t mean that he will remember it and has made it HIS….
Same with those thugs. They are bold enough to whistle the tune or pass the exam but in their own universe they haven’t got a clue of what’s going on. Actually they have all those problems (their girlfriend looks suspicious to them and they can never trust her, they hate their teammates as they are so below their level, anyway, they know best… they, they, they…).
We have all seen such personalities (DM for example?) but we don’t see them early enough. Then when the “system has failed” to weed them out and they take a position of power you see the real thing of who they really are. With the power “bestowed” on them by the system they now start harassing others as there is no one really who can touch them now.
So they just want to “learn the words” and utter them so others can see that they are proficient in them. But their purpose is not to apply the words for the same stated purpose. They have their purposes.
So, yes the emphasis was and will always be on Force more than Intelligence. One of the few guys I met who put the emphasis on Intelligence was LRH. But there is still a lot of work to be done. And ths system cannot yet catch every flab that exists. There are not many efficient inspectors yet. Honest inspectors to weed out those guys as they move up.
And I believe one other thing, too which is a technical Why. Wordclearing or if you want Word Failing is one of the Whys for Scientology. When COB sent a message down the lines to the Translations Unit interpreting one word in LRH’s quote “The work was free, keep it so” and the word was “free” and he interpreted it like “free of charge, for no money” so as to convince the translators to stop being paid and work for free (lol), oh yes… I went nuts. I was the TU Dir… I gathered the TU staff and said to them that’s not what the reference means. THe word “free” in this case does not mean that… and I am not willing to promote this from wherever it comes. (I had long time ago with my ex wife Olga Vernardou been looking into COB as we knew he wouldn’t apply the HCOBs so we were looking for other outpoints). And one Vico Terzi, Italian I/C, told me ok we will come to your funeral!!!!
So, if the TU staff had no certainty to say “what the fuck, this is not the right definition here” imagine others who just buy false definitions and altered definitions of words or don’t get the definitions of words so they can buy anything. When you really know your words and you are clear on them and you know the tech in your area unless you are surrounded by SPs you won’t go down.
That’s my opinion.
Thanks, that blows charge.
Chris,
I was an OOT at Flag just before the GAT training started. I think that was like 93.
Is that where you were? There were about 300 of us or so at that time.
“When COB sent a message down the lines to the Translations Unit interpreting one word in LRH’s quote “The work was free, keep it so” and the word was “free” and he interpreted it like “free of charge, for no money” so as to convince the translators to stop being paid and work for free (lol), oh yes… “
I know of some translators who never got their exchange (training points).
What an outpoint.
That’s one of the reasons why the “100%” translations are so poor.
I asked once in my org for a TU form as I wanted to sent some suggestions as I found incorrect translations in the basics. They couldn’t find one, because the “stable datum” from the event was that the translations are 100%.
Hoo-ha!
Dan Koon wrote:
I think that if a person has a tendency to being an asshole then they will find opportunities to be an asshole in Scn or the S.O.
I think it is more complex than that. In fact, the chronic challenges and problems one faces in one’s daily environment, like in Scn or the S.O., has been found to be a very important part of how an individual behaves.
Think about it.
I believe a game that was played on the planet had much to do with making an individual one with society and in this fashion put him under control. Some asserted that it is natural impulse as we are ‘social animals’. Well, if it was a natural impulse one wouldn’t need to enforce this becoming one with the mass. Anyway, what those control mechanisms (some religion, some psychology etc) have in common is that they reffer to people as evil, bad, crazy, stupid and generally incapable to be self determined and ethical by themselves, without getting pushed around, corrected etc. It may be some mild drama when somebody points out your case (or that you are a talking case) but whether it’s on purpose or not, it never helps. Auditing doesn’t work like that. And if one is not in session, it is no excuse to ‘help’ the other by pointing out to him that all that he is, is a walking implant…untill he is shown the light by the righteous ones. ‘Sorry’ but I put neo-Scientology (COS and stuff) in the same category as “some religion, some psychology etc”.
“Follow the group, inferior being!”
IMHO, John Colleto. represents a typical abused, mal-fed, wrong indicated condition, underpaid, brainwashed uber cult adherent.
LRH did create a cult of his own personality, documented in 1965 with his epic fault, KSW 1. It only took 15 years at that point for everything to be turned on its ear.
Wake up………..
Ron is not God, though he in did declare himself as such.
Enforcement could be considered a frequent doctrine in the writings of Scientology. Sanctified enforcement for the greatest good. And when you have an individual who has the inherent tendency to be an asshole, he can find writen justification. Enforced control backed up by punishment is the group mindset.
Kind hearted people use the info in a kind hearted way. Angry controlling people find justification for their animal natures.
Oops, last sentence should read:
Ron is not God, though he did in fact declare himself as such.
Just want to say, as my sediment to much of what is being said here:
The way to Keep Anything Working, Scientology or otherwise, is to care enough to do what it takes, no matter how long it takes or how much it takes, to get the person involved to understand conceptually what he is learning.
This includes getting the person to understand WHY the references say what they do, and making it his own, so that he can THINK WITH what is happening when he is applying it.
Treat the person as an individual with his own individual considerations, barriers and relationships to the concepts.
Ensure that he gets the concept!
And to hell with Thursday at 2:00 course completions when you can see when those concepts aren’t where they need to be for a course completion!
Show me an organization with course Supervisors who do that, and I’ll show you an area free of so-called “Class VIII’s” like John Coletto.
Marty –
Thank you very much for telling this story.
John Colleto was a Class 8 Auditor who murdered his wife and killed himself.
This is the kind of story that every Scientologist shouold know in order to develop judgement on Scientology. I believe that tools like the Learning Drill should be applied to this datum, because data like this are not uncommon enough in Scientology.
Here’s the Learning Drill:
THE LEARNING DRILL
POSITION: Student and coach sit facing each other across a table.
PURPOSE: To develop judgement by duplication and understanding.
TRAINING STRESS:
1. The first step is duplication.
The coach takes a sentence or phrase from “Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland”. The line used is unimportant. The coach reads it to the student. TRs should be in, although not stressed.
The student then repeats the line exactly as the coach read it. Coach merely tries to get the student to repeat a line of sounds. You don’t need to call them words. It is not rote memory. It is duplication. The coach repeats the line each time the student flubs until the student has duplicated it exactly.
2. The second step is understanding.
After the student has correctly duplicated what the coach read, coach asks “Give me an example of that.” Student gives example or examples until both are satisfied.
Coach then asks, “How do you feel about that?” and if OK they continue to next line. If the student has any uncertainties with examples the coach goes back to 1 and starts the drill from the beginning, using the same line. If the student still has trouble with examples, coach would ask “Are there any misunderstoods on this line?” and any found cleared up. A dictionary should be used where required.
REMEDY: If the student continues to have trouble with examples, the coach could say, “Give me an example of how the datum *isn’t* that way,” and student gives examples until both are satisfied, then “Give me an example of how it is,” until both are satisfied. Always end off with how it *is*.
The student should feel good about the datum after duplication and understanding and should start having realizations as he is further drilled. Eventually, using the two basic steps, the student will learn judgment.
The drill should be coached on a gradient.
It should be ended on a good win. Student should have VGIs.
The end result on each student is the ability to rapidly and accurately learn
data.”
So let’s run the learning drill on the datum:
John Colleto was a Class 8 Auditor who murdered his wife and killed himself.
Alanzo
• Yes, Ron Norton was one of those in the “high priest” valence, both technically and administratively, when he was assigned CO FLO in 1996. (I had never met him prior to that) He bullied staff, was arrogant, condescending, joker & degrader. Those in his tone scale band loved him and thought he was the next best thing to toilet paper and sliced bread. He bragged about his Class 9 , OT 7 and OEC + FEBC statusses, as well as his “experiences”.
He would use some special process question (according to him) to make a staff cry. (Are you in re-stimulation?) Then later on at staff muster, he bragged that he used to do this “technique” on publics at Flag (FSO) to get them weeping, console them, then get them to sign up and pay for more services. The staff to whom he had done this were of course in attendance at muster, and would key right back in. Just plain sick. That’s no auditor. He will never audit me for sure.
Norton took pleasure at humiliating SO Members in front of their peers on post, during staff musters and staff meetings. He yelled & cursed at staff, denigrated them, then told them how little they produced compared to him in his SO career, and compared to David Miscavidge, whom he worshiped. Then he wanted those very staff to be buddy-buddy with him. – He used the same mental mechanism of those who beat their wive then turn around and tell her they “love” her, lavish her with gifts, “please don’t leave me” , then beat her again.
During his tenure, the FLO staff would get paid a quarter (¼) of their allowances, once in a while, $11.62 per month, once in a while, sometimes less. Imagine women having to buy their sanitary products with that. To go to “work”, he drove a brand new Honda Civic from the Hollywood Inn to the HGB (about a ¼ mile), while we all crammed in ONE bus, standing up like packed sardines to go to the PAC base.
He had his own credit card with which he bought stuff for himself, paid for air-shipping freight with his credit card then turned around and made the staff wrong for not having obtained sufficient money from Treasury, which he controlled to begin with.
Norton ran some hidden-data line that the Sea Org Command Channels were the 3rd and 4th Dynamic Bridge, with the top being OT, and those bellow not being there yet, and having A LOT of work to do to even begin to progress on that so-called “3rd & 4th Dynamic Bridge” of his.
• There was also a Sea Org officer “high priest” : Lieutenant Right-Arm James Burns (with a star next to his 2 yellow bars *|| ). I don’t know what ship he allegedly commanded. He was quite the arrogant-bully-condescending-J&D character too.
My own observation is that Marty states a situation and then he publish a book in which the situation is somehow addressed, stating or giving hints about possible solution(s).
IMO this is an excellent strategy, because:
◦ The readers can “digest” the situation without (immediately) being evaluated to a (Marty’s) solution.
◦ Usually, a situation has more than one optimum (an near optimum) solution. Since Marty is not giving (immediately) his own solution, the commenters are not concentrated on Marty’s solution, but take a broad view of the situation.
◦ All these comments are also input for Marty to improve his own thinking about the situation and the possible solutions.
I am aware of LRH’s policy about not being ok to state a situation without giving a solution. However that policy was meant for management. What Marty is doing is more like R & D (research and development), and he is also giving his readers the opportunity and encouraging them to evaluate and think by themselves.
Insightful
I feel bad about the experience you had with the “Dean of Technology”, especially as described later on in your Memoirs…What a nightmare!
I was fortunate to have encountered mostly Sups with decent ARC.
But one weird incident sticks with me. I was down in the course room at the Org working on a Cram or maybe it was a Re-tread of Level 4.
Suddenly the Sup came up to me with a frightened expression and said I really need to talk to you right now. So we walked out into the hallway to speak alone. The Sup then confided to me that he had been falsifying stats in his course room for weeks and asked me what he should do. He was very upset and shaking.
I can’t remember exactly what I said, but it was something along the lines of go get yourself a cup of coffee and try to relax, take some deep breaths.
Then find the terminal in the Org that you trust the most and talk to him.
I know it was stupid advise, but I was never into heavy ethics…
I guess he handled it, because he continued to Sup until the day I left.
I don’t think enforced beingness, doingness or havingness of any kind will produce a predictable and consistent result. When ruthlessly applied, KSW does all three. It’s bad policy because it is not workable and really not for any other reason.
To answer your question more directly, I think that applying KSW rotely is not an adequate substitute for awareness and ARC, and I don’t believe that you can instill awareness and ARC by ruthlessness in training. In fact, it’s probably the opposite.
Thanks.
Ooops. Typo. I meant:
“Usually, a situation has more than one optimum (AND near optimum) solution.”
Theo wrote: “There are not many efficient inspectors yet. Honest inspectors to weed out those guys as they move up.”
I thought that Heber or Guilaume or Mitthof or even LRH would have been efficient inspectors who could have caught DM before he moved up. But they couldn’t.
Who are these honest inspectors you don’t have enough of yet? Surely not the ones who tried to put Marty (Marty!) into lower conditions recently? Personally, I’m staying well away from inspectors like those.
“No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?”
― George Orwell, Animal Farm
My story falls under the category of watch out what you wish for. I was at AO getting OTV and I wished that I could get a CL. XII auditor because I had been a professional CL V auditor for a number of years and wanted to have someone who could really handle me.
Well, I got a Cl XII all right, an auditor, because of being a CL XII felt entitled to make me get Cal-Mag everyday for her. (She had others vacuuming her auditing room and other little niceties.) Who was so awful with remembering what command she was on, I would prompt her or just give the correct command to myself in my head and then answer it out loud to her. And then with the capper, because she had to audit on a Sunday, which was her only day off with her child – which I understand was horrible – but when I took a short walk on a break to get some space, she felt perfectly justified in screaming at me in front of the entire HGC and the NOTs waiting room crowd when I returned. Then I had to go back into session with her, which at that point I just took total control and figured, I just have to get an f/n so I can get the hell out of here! Obviously, it wasn’t a real f/n, but hey, she called it.
Let’s face it she shouldn’t have been auditing and she was definitely a product of the environment she was in. A product that I’ve become increasingly aware of since I got out.
This started my long and winding road out of the church. It took years and those are the years I regret the most. A BIG waste of time, but I’m sure you are more than familiar with that!
Speaking of “Deans or Wizards of technology” and training, I would like to offer a word of advice for those out here in the field. From personal experience.
I still can’t understand why anyone out here would “quickie” a grade or process. In the Orgs there were stat pushes for comps. But that is not the case out in the field. People have time. There is no stat push. I have no idea why people would quickie P.C.’s out here. Later up the bridge it becomes a real barrier. I know from the people I bring into the loop out here and then watch them suffer later on.
I think if it is all good it is all good, but people should ask that they not be quickied. You might feel good the day you move on to the next grade, process or level, but later on up the bridge, it is going to come up as an issue.
Training can be quickied also.
Another covert way to “quickie”, is “read it drill it do it”. No checksheets. No set ups for the OT levels. telling P.C.’s they are so “OT” they can skip OT 1 through 1 through 6 and go right on to NOTS. Telling a P.C. 90% of the process’ for the level are really not necessary for E.P.. Putting people on the OT levels with not set ups. Putting people on actions with no set ups. Telling P.C.’s process’ and actions “are not necessary” for them and were just “made up by the Church to make money”. The person helping you disregards C/S instructions after you pay for the C/S. For instance, the C/S says to do a review and your terminal disregards the advice while claiming to be “working with a C/S”. Putting people on the OT levels that have not done any solo check sheets, necessary review or OT set ups. Forwarding student on Tr’s when they have not had any wins on previous TR’s or a pass. I had one person here that quickied everyone on everything busy busy busy for six weeks, left here with not one success story and all blown off the bridge. Everything had to be redone / repaired at enormous expense.
I have one selectee went for major action told by the auditor 90% of the action was necessary, the Church just audited it for more money. Still sorting out that mess.
What is the rush? Do NOT let people push you forward and rob you you of the proper gradients, training, wins and gains.
GAOT ll right now is bragging as to grads in time frames.
YOU insist that you not be quickied. And anyone that is working to quickie you or your friends and family, , just move them off your plate A.S.A.P. They are their for them self, not for you. There isn’t any three alarm fire around here that demands you get pushed through a meat grinder so you can get a label before you check out.
You can have a LOT of FUN and you know what you should and shouldn’t be doing. And what standards you should be upholding. Don’t let someone sell you less.
Dave – You were obviously a great supervisor. You showed compassion and you personally cared for the person in front of you. In my opinion, this is much of the enforced cultish think that has been referenced many times on many posts here.
I have to thank “Maria” for pointing me to this video. I feel this is the attitude needed to take the valid points of LRH writings and works and help those around us.
This must be the attitude in handling a person, helping a student, or auditing a person to bring about enlightenment and free them from some unknown fixed picture, idea or thought. We shall all win and be a better person if and when we truly care for one another.
How horrible.
In defense of Ron Norton, I worked with him before he descended the tone scale. He had a lot of ARC. He loved his staff and looked upon them as resources to forward the aims of Scientology. Sure, he had some rough edges, but you could excuse that as being human, I suppose.
He USED TO BE a good leader. But at the time I worked with him, he wasn’t hatted. He was a Class IX auditor, but not at all administratively trained.
One thing you can count on, when someone is not trained or hatted, is that they will resort to force. They don’t know what else to do. It doesn’t excuse them, but they adopt it as a stable datum and it all goes to hell from there. After he was hatted (FEBC according to your post), he was too enmeshed in the scene and became one of them. It called “snapping terminals” It’s a study in and of itself.
So yeah, we lost Norton as you describe above.. Now he’s running his own company and having a ball. His staff love him. He shed the attitude and tone level of anger/hate. Once one leaves the RCS, one leaves the valence behind as well. He left the Int Base and let each and every senior “exec” know how despicable they were. Did he cause harm? Yes. No question. But praise the lord, he’s out. Same can be said of Marty. Did Marty cause harm? Yes, But praise the lord, he’s out.
I think Norton is simply a study in the whole descent of good people going bad within the RCS.
Linda
This is just TONE LEVEL. As a Scientologist, as a person, as a supervisor, I love people. I’ve had supervisors under me who didn’t like people. I didn’t even know that about them at first, but it became apparent they didn’t like people when their care factor was absent. Then I’d have some two-way-comm with them about how it wasn’t going to work out if they didn’t care for people. I’m only talking about 2 sups, but both admitted they didn’t like
people.
This may seem like a bit of a digression, but the point is that a good supervisor loves his students and helps them get through their studies (that would be teaching correctly the correct technology). There are a lot of supervisors who don’t understand what running a tough courseroom means. That’s just an MU and a missing concept.
It’s beyond me how anyone could cite a 1.5 supervisor as a violator of KSW. Of course he’s violating KSW. He can’t even assimilate it. Study the Chart of Human Evaluation.
Linda
Somewhat related as the topic of stops, ethics, and undesirables has surfaced with this “dean of technology” and all that ensued in his existence.
I have recently been distracted with handling legal, and ethics, and it is all consuming in time and money and energy as one does not create during these intervals.
I was doing better when let it all go by and kept focus on positives.
I have come to the conclusion that when Hubbard changed the purpose from “Clear Earth” to “Put ethics in on Earth”, he made a “have to have before one could do ” situation. As in, “We have to put in everyone’s ethics before we can clear people”.
I was doing better when I wrote off the unholies and just moved on. I got more done and I did not get hung up in time on other people’s purposes.
If I had to stop to handle justice every time I was tripped up I would never get anything accomplished.
“Other people’s out ethics” are “a problem for me or a stop”, is simply an agreement. A justifyer in fact. A License to be distracted and it assigns power and cause to those flowing against you. You shift your attention on to STOPPING or HANDLING them. In that way they become sponges. What you validate grows. They aren’t going anywhere anyway. Nature becomes repelled by them and so does the Earth they stand on. Red Carpets hide in alleys to avoid them. It is not like you really have to do anything about them. The atmosphere will recycle. Whatever hit you took, roll with the punch and switch gears. Just shift to a parallel universe / path where you will not share resources. You do NOT have to put other people’s ethics in. There mere fact that people create their own future by what they prophesy predict and determine for others, is a natural justice.
Look at the person in front of you. What you see in them, is what they have mocked up for others. If they are unhappy, this is what they have caused for others. If they are broken, this is what they have done to others. If they are alone, this is what they have mocked up for others. If they are angry and full of hate, this is what they wanted for others. If they are stuck in losses, this is what they have spun for others.
Who is a really a cop in the supernatural? There are no such hats. Even when they were mocked up on Earth it caused civil disobedience. It is history now, but the idea and enforcement of police upon people caused civil disobedience.
The whole COP ETHICS JUSTICE enforced down upon people exploring the occult and the supernatural, has resulted in a police nation called the C of S, and tons of looneys running around out here with a license to abuse other people.
This “duty” enforced upon me as a Scientologist, and as a person inside that group, was something I was looking for and begrudging adopted as it made some reason. But these are all policy connected with a GROUP.
And so far below my own purpose line it is some kind of SOUTH hell.
The people that fair gamed me, published false reports about me, scammed me, ripped me off, published P.C. folder data or ethics folder data, spread rumors, blackmailed me, I can count on two hands, of the thousands of people who’s path I have crossed. Doing the math, they really don’t matter in my life. I don’t want to care about them anymore.
They should not have been graduated from Child Day Care centers and turned loose in the world to be trusted on their own. They can’t even think with the ten commandments. It is no wonder they can not function in this arena or on my lines. And I have no further interest in curbing them as a virus running though my life. That they shift my purpose to one that feels compelled to STOP someone or something is the biggest damage. I do NOT owe it to them to be a COP. I don’t want to be a cop. It is a slovenly mission to STOP STOP STOP others, and it is a man made plot risen as an unusual and low tones solution.
When Hubbard made this the PURPOSE of the Sea Org and installed police in every Org and Mission, he blew the whole game. I am not walking in those foot steps.
The purpose of police was to assist the ruling class. (Those that dominate) The whole purpose is DOMINATION.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3053387?uid=3739824&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21102321276001
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police
“Metropolitan Police patrols took to the streets on 29 September 1829, despite resistance from certain elements of the community who saw them to be a threat to civil liberties.” THIS is an understatement. There were RIOTS! All citizens at all times are under marshal law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Metropolitan_Police_Service
This became so CRAZY within Scientology that I recently had a homeless man walking through my kitchen yelling, “I am on a mission to put ethics in on the Freezone!”
There was only one member of the ruling class in Scientology while Hubbard was alive. Hubbard. The Sea Org was invented to help him control the others. Then they imagined themselves legally and otherwise into the “ruling class”.
I do not explore the occult for all of this bull shit.
All of this was slipped in sideways as part and parcel to my just wanting to find out more about life and myself.
The people wearing cop hats out here and working to establish themselves as the ruling class , between us, while we are just moving out from under the oppression of the “ruling class” in the Church, and finding out the truth (Thanks to Marty Mike Karen and others) can just go fuck themselves. If you wanted police work you should have applied someplace with benefits. COPS work for a ruling class. There is no “ruling class” out here. Sorry you blew your chance to be part of it in the Church. Out here, the person who rules is the CUSTOMER. The BUYER. If you do not have some valuable exchange you are fucked. The best you can hope for is to find someone to SERVE. There is no free ride to the “ruling class” with a uniform. It is all opposite out here. Come into present time! If you think you are going to “make it” as KSW police and by STOPPING STOPPING STOPPING KNOCKING OUT HAMMERING OUT CLOSING DOORS you are fucked. Unless you go work Mall Security.
I think the suppression comes from the police force in the Church. And the PTS’s. NOT from outside!
90% of the people out here complaining about Scientology are NOT complaining about the tech! They are complaining about the police force in the Church, which was established like all police forces, to SUPPRESS commons for the RULING CLASS.
Get the fucking POLICE who use K,S.W. as their manual for justice, out of this arena and off everybody’s backs, and Scientology MIGHT survive! Get the “ruling class” into a session room where they can just be a P.C. and we might get somewhere!
The evidence? WHO is David Miscavgie’s M.A.A.?
That link is broken, but I found it. I’m ready to dive into this now. I’m intrigued.
This was in 2000-2001
Our REAL CRIME out here, the reason we have been declared “S.P.’s” is that we have escaped the clutches of the RULING class. The problem I myself am having with the fundies, is their obsessive nature to create a NEW group where there can be a RULING CLASS. And their bulldog like nature is positioning themselves as the RULING class. And efforts to police as a RULING class. It is NOT about the K.S.W. and they are NOT Keeping Scientology Working by harming attacking and suppressing others. They are just asserting their position as the RULING class. And attempting to RULE through police actions. Most of them have little or no auditor training at all and were not even trained with standard tech. They were trained on the RPF “read it drill it do it” style and have not even completed standard check sheets check sheet requirments. How K.S.W. is to “read it drill do it”? You know WHY K.S.W. is NOT important to the people on the R.P.F.? They are already so controlled and dominated down there nobody is concerned that they will get out of line. Anyone who volunteers to be a prisoner, abused, neglected, tortured, and treated like trash, is not a threat to the RULING class. Unless they come up to thinking of escape! The Church ONLY attacks threats to the RULING class. The anti fanatics are another POLICE FORCE attempting to squash miscreants for the RULING CLASS. The fucking Sea Org People do not know whether they are rebels or the RULING class anymore. They are stuck in that GPM.
WHAT bypasses charge on people about Marty? He does not LAY DOWN for the RULING class. He didn’t do it when he was in the Church. He didn’t do it before he went in the Church. And he hasn’t done it since he left the Church. He confronted the RULING class everywhere he went and he dared to play the same games.
That is EXACTLY why he has been attacked. He did lay down for politicians, governments, police, celebrities, David Miscavige or anyone else.
This REALLY bypasses charge on people who have been conditioned that it is not O.K. to NOT LAY down for the RULING class.
This makes him “dangerous”. This is how brainwashed society is.
TYPO. He DID NOT lay down for politicians, governments, police, celebrities, David Miscavige or anyone else.
What pisses people off is that he does not go into agreement to be DOMINATED by the RULING CLASS.
How COPS (enforcing for the ruling class) in this arena have complained that he is not in jail? Here are the MINIONS for the ruling class. Whom all abuse power themselves so never rise above enforcer positions for the RULING class they they are PTS to.
Here is your “Ruling Class” lying on national television to millions of viewers. It’s all about the “Glory”! What the HELL does this have to do with ethics and justice?
This is ALL about the RULING CLASS.
Zimbardo’s Stanford Prison Experiment failed the Scientific Peer Review process. However interesting his views on Group Dynamics may be, they are not Social Science, Mr. Stanfield.
Michael A. Hobson
Independent Scientologist
I had been a Course Supervisor when one day the OES came to me and told me that one particular student would have to complete by Thursday before 14:00. I answered him that I wouldn’t be able to sign his checksheet as he wouldn’t be a product, yet. The OES went off fuming. Later I found out that he had reported false stats uplines. When it came out I was not in the line of fire.
I learned from that that the dangerous thing is to not hold my position, even if a short sighted view may indicate otherwise.
Today I would add that every kind of suppression can only take place if it is permitted by those connected to it.
“LRH did create a cult of his own personality”
As far as I know, LRH’s auditing does the opposite than what that guy said to Marty.
“documented in 1965 with his epic fault, KSW 1”
How does KSW1 relate? Was that part of keeping SCN working?
“Ron is not God, though he did in fact declare himself as such.”
Unlike other spiritual leaders, he declared everybody to be God.
That is to bad about Ron Norton. I worked with him when he was a N/OTs Auditor back in 1979. He was nice then, very helpful. I never really had any problems with him. I left before he became the CO OF THE FSO.
Where the hell does it say stating a “Situation and giving a “Solution is only a part of management???? Cas Spervisor are always given situation to then recommend a “solution” for the Auditor and the PC!!!!!!!!!And tha’t the TECH area.
I did experience something like that early on.
When I first got became a Scientologist I was getting some “quickie grades”. At some point, I didn’t want to attest to a particular grade because I didn’t feel that I had really attained the ep. This caused consternation among the tech staff. Finally I was sent to see “Valerie” in qual, a Class VII. Valerie asked me to pick up the cans. Without saying or asking anything, she stared at the meter silently for a few seconds, and then announced loudly to everyone in the vicinity, “PTS, just as I thought!” As an ignorant neophite I didn’t even know what “PTS” meant…..but I got the impression that it was a very bad thing.
To balance this out I want to say that by far most of the experiences I have had with Class VIIIs were very good and rewarding.
The way Colletto behaved proves that he had not attained Class VIII because he obviously did not even know the auditor’s code. How could that happen? As someone who audited SO members a couple of times, that I was sometimes appalled at the out tech that SO staff CSes sometimes allowed for SO members. It pissed me off because I felt that these people deserved the best.
One possible explanation comes to mind as to how someone could come to be known as a “Class VIII and run crap like this on people. . Years ago there was a fad of issuing “conditional certs” to people who were allowed to graduate courses after doing only the theory part of courses with no practical requirement. The idea was that they would “later” do an internship . Once I met a tall young man with a very serious demeanor who was a “Conditional Class VIII”, but had never delivered an auditing session. He was a sad, helpless thing to behold. I imagine that if he had also had a nasty, arrogant disposition, he could have become like Colletto.
When I was in SCN, I had some incidents where I disagreed with a person’s attitude (being oppressive) and it was pointed out to me that the attitude was alligned with LRH refferences. I re-re-re-re-studied just to find out that there was nothing there to explain that attitude. Over that It’s funny how -for example- some interpret sh1tty, hostile attitude as ‘being strict’. I am strict with myself. When I don’t do what I consider optimum, I want and try -sometimes hard- to do better. But I don’t commit further overts onto myself during that process. WTF ‘strictness’ is it to try to degrade the other person to make him an ‘expert auditor’ or something? What’s the SCN logical basis? Suddently all ARC and KRC and the rest go to hell because of an HCOPL or two? And another thing: Obviously there are no understoods and misunderstoods as absolutes, or else I cannot explain how me and another read the same stuff and understand completely different things.
Alanzo, apropos to this article of robotic staff currently in the C of $, here is a recent story from a BC student who was on the Learning Drill:
Having done the drill, he was giving a huge win to his twin. A Class VIII auditor who was in the course room as a student overheard his win and actually challenged it, asking him what possible references he could cite for having such a win.
This was one more nail in the coffin for the RCS as far as he was concerned. And the result is that he’s now out for good.
Eh of course I’m not allowed to say such thing, because them people worked for my sins, so no intergrity for me. Yes, the right to talk is earned. “Who are you to disagree? You dont clear the planet, I clear the planet. And if I can’t clear you it is because you are too bad to be cleared (if you were ethical enough, you would have the money, honey).
Dan Koon said “Everything a person runs into in his or her life is an opportunity to learn or ignore learning.”
I agree 100%. There is so much food for the ego in this world, when things are easy. A little adversity, and an occasional asshole, can provide valuable lessons in what is really important in life, and hence – food for the soul (if one is strong enough not to get snuffed out / overwhelmed by it).
Marty, I read your book and loved it. It is an honest book. Thank you for taking the time to write it.
Hi Alonzo – try running it on
“John Colleto was a psycho who managed to falsely attest to Class 8 without having a clue about the basics of Scientology and who murdered his wife and killed himself.”
Whether it failed to impress some folks with some sort of certificates, it described very well a lot of what I observed in the Sea Org.
Giving a solution when trying to prompt a discussion, is a bit like giving away an EP just as you start a process with a PC.
Trying to fix (find solutions for) what is wrong in the RCS is a bit like trying to unscramble an egg. But as individuals we can learn from it, rise above it, and move on. And so, (in my opinion) the church still provides a lesson – albeit not one that was intended.
Marty’s book describes this incident with John, and a further, violent incident with John, and I would guess that these collective incidents and other “Johns” within the organisation have taught Marty something of the bigger picture on a macroscopic level. On a microscopic level – perhaps the lesson is to see the outpoint, and where it is likely headed.
In my opinion, trying to get thousands and millions of people to follow a template (policies) does not (and cannot) factor in what people will do with it. You can teach a terrorist to fly a plane, but you cannot always know what he will do in the pilot’s seat. A cleared cannibal is still a cannibal.
The right dosage of ying and yang is required for scientology (or anything) to work. In my opinion too much “desperation-speak” has entered in (eg “brief breath in eternity” – “few desperate souls” – “the only way out” – “lose your eternity”), and it is the tone level fear, and this has provided safe haven for the militaristic (drill sergeant) valence of the RCS.
SO History, circa 1970: I don’t remember the source, so please take with a grain of salt until verified:
When the VIIIs were first sent out into the Orgs in the late 60’s Auditor’s Code point 13, to never run any one action beyond its FN, was applied rotely, so that when the pc floated on clearing the first command of the first process of a lower Grade, and without running anything, he was sent to exams to attest to the Grades he was command-cleared on, sometimes all five at one exam. Thus quickie grades and bragging about speed of delivery.
I don’t know what the handling on this from Flag was, perhaps re-assignment from CS/Auditor to Course Sup?
Paul K, Dunedin, FLA
Chris: my experiences were similar. Having studied at FLAG, AO, ASHO and a host of missions and orgs I saw sups and auditors come in all shapes and sizes. One Wed. night I ended up on the line up to finish an academy level and I too wasn’t allowed bathroom breaks. It was not a fun scene when I went toe to toe with the sup and DofT.
Marty: Somehow through it all I maintained that I was dealing with individuals, and their behaviour had little to do with KSW, being an auditor or even being a Scientologist. Some people are just not nice people no matter what training/bridge level they are at. If anything I always felt a little sorry for those people, maybe they needed a hug or something? If it weren’t for the damage they created. Being more ‘ruthless’ in my experience never made a better person in any practice. Tough and insisting on following laid out procedure? Sure. But the attitude of ‘ruthless’ and how it was applied IMHO made worse auditors and sups in general. The best ones always had a tremendous compassion about them, even while they crammed you on a serious auditing flub.
You can certainly have your opinion. There are no absolutes. That is why there are tools LRH DEVELOPED TO HANDLE THE SITUATION. Like “the 2 minute psychometry”, THE TONE SCALE AND THE SCALES IN THE Book 0-8 THE BOOK OF BASICS, THE CODE OF HONOR. Obviously you have not studied those reference otherwise you would no do the stupid philosophizes you are doing. ( with all due respect.)
I just blew so much charge reading this series of posts. Thank you!
Colleto was breaking the Sup’s Code, most fundamentally.
Lack of Cramming, or Colleto’s Class 8 status likely weighed in his superiority “know best” as well as whatever his own case problems with his own implants in restim (or so he and others might speculate was his problem). Case on post, and Course Sup violations, is what I see.
I’d say poor and non existent cramming, by tech persons capable of themselves applying the Sup’s Code, and a tech hierarchy at the CLO level to have someone like Cotteto crammed, retreaded or removed from that Course Supervisor position, is what I see missing for how Colleto could even get away with what he got away with.
One thing the Indie and Freezone Scientology groups have to have amongst them, is Cramming Officer minded people, who themselves apply the Sup’s Code in exemplary fashion.
To me, LRH even writing “Codes” for the key technical positions to use as the most important principles, is something that weighs much more important in Scientology’s success or failure. All the key tech positions– auditors, course supervisors, word clearers, case supervisors, and even Ethics Officers, must be the best at applying the Codes.
I just listened to Les Warren point out in one of Tatiana’s videos of the 2010 Indie convention talks, Les correctly points out the importance of tremendous amounts of ARC necessary by Basic Course Sups.
This is really right in the Course Sup’s Code: “…use good ARC….” in dealing with students.
I’m not a Scientologist, but speaking for what LRH said, I feel compelled to speak for the best of what LRH ordered and wrote, in my early “upbringing” in the tech environment of Dec 75 through 1983, at the Flag Land Base, as a TTC member, then very briefly auditor, then Course Sup, and Word Clearer, D of T, the personalities of tech people, frankly most determined a person’s tech position success, in hindsight.
It’s hard to order a tech person to demonstrate “higher ARC” . It’s impossible to order or even Cram a Course Sup to demonstrate better “pan determinism” and be more helpful, if that Course Sup doesn’t have that basic personality ability to begin with.
The Scientology organizations, do have the luxury, the bigger ones, of having a tech hierarchy, and thus a chance of having some better intentioned and knowledgable people to even cram, retread, retrain, remove, a person like Colleto.
He obviously wasn’t being corrected, or removed from his post.
We all witnessed how some people did their training as public, then became staff, and had “case” issues all through their Sea Org or staff careers.
I see several themes in this story of Colleto.
Case problems, enough that he should NOT have been on staff, and NOT been in a tech position (as he was constantly violating the Codes, which alone are grounds to have him never been on staff tech positions).
A lot of the long term criticism of staffs at various times in the Sea Org and lower echelon orgs’ histories, is the tech staffs and Ethics staffs who abused and performed horrible service to students.pcs and public.
The org tech hierarchy was there, Cramming, Qual Review, Ethics, to ensure tech staff weren’t perpetrating abuse and bad tech.
Even though I’m not a Scientologist, I do feel LRH did make extensive attempts to build a system that self corrected itself. Division 5 is not nothing, it’s a whole self correcting division for orgs.
One always needs more compassionate and wiser superiors, or a pan determined wiser terminal, above the competing arguing entrenched parites who are arguing.
I myself, thought that the “solution” to all of the internal Scientology organizational conflicts, was really a pan determined referral to the correct Hubbard writing that didn’t just push the violating person into the mud and out the door.
To me, there are only sometimes periods of sanity that occur in Scientology, and this is amid the periods and seemingly always happening bad situations of intractable conflict of viewpoints of some of the members who are pitted for multiple reasons, both sides being “right” for their bad behavior, and oblivious to their violations of some of LRH’s rules and principles.
Pan determinism on the part of tech staff to correct and fix the lower tech staff, without pissing off those being corrected (the Cram Off series ideal scene), and using cram, retread, retrain, remove options, the reality of all Scientology organizations is simply that there will always be tech personnel who are mid career failures.
The tech people who just wanted to be an auditor for the rest of their lives, or who wanted to be a course supervisor for the rest of their lives, to me, are the tech people who are the core tech people, as those people always are striving to do the best they can with the subject, and who are trying to improve constantly.
Colleto was a failed tech person left on post, when he should have been retired from tech.
Jay, can you chill with the invalidative, judgmental adjectives with folk? Your “all due respect” caveat is insincere when you use words like “stupid”. If nothing else take it as a writing tip – you can be more succint by not having to apologize for things you say if you don’t say them in the first place.
Oracle said:
“I have come to the conclusion that when Hubbard changed the purpose from “Clear Earth” to “Put ethics in on Earth”, he made a “have to have before one could do” situation. As in, “We have to put in everyone’s ethics before we can clear people”.
I couldn’t agree more.
Having utilized the knowledge extant for thousands of years from the East and others, to put together his processing technology, Hubbard, then invalidated them as Not Source and failures, and took upon himself to lunch a new religious crusade upon earth.
The fact that those philosophies have a lot of wisdom, compassion and built-in mechanisms to prevent the arrogance and insanity of Scientology was apparently lost to LRH.
I’m really pissed off with this crap.
Bad on me, didn’t recognize the name.
Marty, I think you might be pontificating when you have limited experience in matters of life. The person you are calling a “Dean” is hardly that. It is L Ron Hubbard that made him into a miserable being? Or was it his own life that made him into what he is? Might it be that he is uncleared and just a DB? He apparently didn’t use Scientology when he killed his wife and himself. Did he join Scientology and dilegently work, using the tools LRH gave him, to rid himself of his evil ways?
You are telling your audience that this man became vile because of Scientology and “KSW”. Scientology all by itself doesn’t do anything. People do things. People pick up Scientology and do what they want with it and it either goes sour or it goes well. What was the product in your hands when you were IG Ethics? What was the product in Debbie Cooks hands when she was CO FSO?
Why would you blame a body of tech for something. Why not blame specific people for what they did? Is blaming Scientology, as a generality for bad things, a way of you covering up your own years of misdeeds? Did you avail yourself of auditing to handle it?
I have been everywhere and I have seen men and women do a lot of weird shit even outside of Scientology. When I was 23 years old I saw an experiement where 16 men from all walks of life were involved with an experiment whereas 8 of them became “prisoners” and the other 8 were given the role of “prison guards”. None of the 16 were given any hatting on the suject, they were just left to their own devices and filmed. By the middle of the 2nd week the experiment had to be stopped because of actual harsh mental and then physical abuse by the “guards”. Afterwards the “guards” were interviewed and they had no idea and were astonished that they had this evilness in them. All men have this evilness in them. This is why LRH worked so hard to delete the bank.
You see Marty, I have worked for years in delivery orgs where people came in with all sorts of things going on only to have them handled with auditing and/or training. I have also worked in the military, in buisiness, owned a multi-million dollar business and I have seen crazy. Oh yes, I have seen it. But I have also seen it erased. But you want to stop my thought on that? You want to stop everyones thought on that, from what I see,.
So I will ask you a direct question to see exactly where you are actually at: Does Scientology have workable technology to delete mans evilness? Don’t forget, Scientology is a body of data developed by LRH. When he applies it things go pretty well. In the hands of uncleared people it appears that it does not. Please answer that question directly without saying “Read my last 4 years of postings” or some such no-answer. I would like you to step on out and say it. Also have you been getting auditing since out of the Sea Org? Stop my thought here Marty or answer all of my questions in this comment. Let’s see where you are at.
ML Tom
You are acting as the poster boy for all of the mental imprisonment I am attempting to help people out of. When you address me in accordance with generally accepted standards of human decorum I will consider responding in a like fashion.
Thank you that I can have my opinion. I am sticking with it. Of course there are solutions and there is tech for getting to a solution. Perhaps you miss my point (and perhaps that is my fault for the manner I expressed it). I would be happy to be wrong about fixing the problem in the church, but your reaction to my post seems to indicate even more that there is no easy solution at all. You call me stupid, incorrectly assume that I have not read/studied much of the tech, and invalidate me. Is that scientology? Do you see what I have a problem with yet?
The first step is duplication, Ralph.
Flunk. Try again. (:>
Alanzo
Brilliant.
Too bad you don’t consider yourself a Scientologist anymore. Maybe by that, you mean you are not part of DM’s “Scientology”. If so, I get it.
I mean “too bad” in the sense that you seem to know more about the subject, and how it was really intended to work, how and why it went off the rails, than anyone I’ve encountered on this blog or elsewhere. Have you ever considered writing a book?
I’d like to add something to that, Dan. Most likely John Coleto originally came into Scientology fully realizing his inadequacies and seeking a way to help himself stop being an asshole. He went way up to OT III and Class VIII training and took a huge loss on the fact that he was still a psycho. Scientology with its cookie-cutter same-Bridge-for-everybody and set in bronze Power processes that can never be altered (tailor-made) for the individual spirit at hand didn’t adequately help him. He was never audited on his highest interest items, he was never really HELPED. He was just a particle forced through the KSW assembly line. Then we look at him and say, “What an asshole!” Well, there are 7 billion aberrated people out there, about 1 out of 5 are psychotic. So what? The main point is that Scientology could help him but didn’t because it was applied “standardly” instead of handling the specific being in front of the auditor with the powerful tools available in Scientology. That application of Scientology is truly suppressive. That is my message to all the KSW zealots out there. How many beings did they have a chance to help but failed or hurt instead with their enforced KSW? No point in blaming the PCs.
Tom M. said:
“Does Scientology have workable technology to delete mans evilness? Don’t forget, Scientology is a body of data developed by LRH.”
Yes, and also Scientology has the technology to make slaves.
That point you missed because you became enthralled with all that Truth presented to you, and bought into LRH as “Source”, “The Only Way Out”, and “Your Eternal Spiritual Damnation”.
Furthermore you and the other KSW and with LRH crowd, are apparently incapable of remain centered, produce non-dualistic thought, and being a light to yourselves.
Contrary to popular belief we ARE sourceless, unmoving and original.
Jay, I think we need to be polite here. I actually like Marty’s philosophising and we can discuss things in some depth. You think Marty has not read those refs? But Marty has done something no one dared do apart from the whistle blowing he did. He has been examining things in some depth here and I bet he is much more versed in language than many robots like we have been some of us for many years.
So please see that we are trying to discuss things here and yes philosophise Scientology. Why not? I have experienced an open forum here so better have something to say.
Chuck always objective and knowledgeable even when he is not wearing budges. That’s a skill and attitude only well hatted people can have, Tech or Admin.
Chuck wrote: “Division 5 is not nothing, it’s a whole self correcting division for orgs.”
I do not have a problem. Those who cannot duplicate the Tech never fully aply it so get Failed PURPOSES AND THEY THEN STOP USING IT. (If they ever did in the first place.) Thent hey seek to invalidate it and complain for the rest of their lives about how unworkable it is. Where is you Bridge and how many people are you getting up it on a weekly or daily basis?
He’s a cussing jerk, Marty. It is my opinion that the SO corrupted people and that people in the SO voluntarily became enemies to themselves and by extension to others. Any training I got while on staff was a joke in joke conditions. But, the training I received as public on standard courses – mind you, this was pre-GAT by over ten years – was mostly awesome. The NSO (and some SO) class VI’s and VIII’s I knew (my mom among them) were almost invariably kind and wise. They were my heroes growing up. The trained course sups I knew knew their shit and, by the way, did apply 1-10 of KSW and did so not as a threat or make-wrong, but gradiently as a tool to get me to know my stuff. I had pink sheets and crams – every one geared to getting to correct application. I had great word clearing – almost all of it (save for the m9 craze of 1980) geared to understand the words that were there so I could understand the concepts I was reading.
My biggest beef with the SO is that untrained or incredibly badly trained people were asked to give their all while totally not understanding any fucking thing about what Scientology is and what they were really killing themselves for. I saw that every cussing day I was on staff (and when I wasn’t, for that matter).
The reason I never became a pro auditor after all my years in training was because of the RTC and its incredibly awful treatment of auditors back in the mid ’80s. Again, the SO and its greatest product, Mr. David Miscavige.
Marty I am just over 1/2 way through your book and really enjoying it.
I must say even though I have known you almost 30 years, after reading this story about Colletto and what happened and your early years and family life, I realized that I really didn’t KNOW you as well as I thought!
I always respected you, but after reading about your early years growing up and what you went through, I have an even greater appreciation for you as a person.
I don’t know many people who would have done what you did in that incident with Diane Colletto.
You are one of my heros in more ways than one. I didn’t expect to be very surprised by what I read in your book when I got it. Boy was I wrong!
Can’t wait to finish it this weekend. You are a man like few others.
Dan love your comments and insight.
Your comment about people being assholes regardless of where they are reminded me of this song by Jimmy Buffet!! 🙂
Great news. I am glad he changed and re-became himself.
Mark, by the time you finish I hope you aren’t so overimpressed. I am a lot more like everybody else than maybe the first several chapters might project. Thanks for the feedback.
Jay – please answer the question you posed to Wendy too.
I’ve had experience as public at a mission and have been on staff at service organizations from Class V through to Flag, and I believe the “ruthless” behavior was a contagion of aberration in which the higher the org, the worse it was – due to the greater and more direct influence of management. At Flag, I think it came about because of the examples set by management staff posted right there on the base, especially CMO and RTC staff – and by DM’s example whenever he was there (who, it seems, set the tone from the top down). I saw him humiliate more than one staff member who didn’t show complete lock-step and adulation of him personally.
However, as you noted, the staff did vary a lot and as a matter of fact Marty’s ex wife, D/Inspector General (D/IG – over all of RTC at Flag) was a notable exception to the rule with regard to being “ruthless”. You could see that she was highly dedicated but she had a lot of ARC too and sensible, non-rote application of tech. I recall that she even tried her best to stamp out the false data about 3-swing F/N’s. So I believe it’s just as you said – individuals come in all shapes and sizes.
“You are telling your audience that this man became vile because of Scientology and ‘KSW’.”
I don’t see this in Marty’s post at all. Marty didn’t say that.
Regarding Ron running his own company — he is running a company financed by some very wealthy scientologists. He was working with another company and was very much the same — yelling at everyone, not loved by the staff. Now he’s off with another company and I haven’t heard that he’s loved by this new group — perhaps he is.
I knew Ron personally very well when he went from cramming officer in the FSO to Captain. Overnight. It took a few years and LOTS of special favors before Ron stopped being “a good guy” … he took personal gifts from FCCI’s and Mission Holders. He drove a brand new covette he paid for with BOOK BONUSES …
Ron Norton went south when he stopped being on the same terms as the rest of us … started getting high on power and prestige.
He got busted in part because of the special favors he took from Mission Holders and moved off those lines. He managed to make his way from England back to the US as head of CO FLO.
He’s caught between a rock and a hard place. One child IN the Sea Org as security at Flag and the other child having left the Sea Org at Int – Security Chief — who wants NOTHING to do with scientology — is married to a non Scientologist and has 2 children.
Ron’s wife isn’t about to upset either kid and wants to remain connected to her grandchildren.
Ron Norton is a classic example of power corrupts – absolute power corrupts absolutely.
It’s a shame. As a tech terminal he was a great guy. I know – his son is my god-child.
Christine
One of the biggest problems I see or saw in scientology was that it was trying to expand too fast. They needed to makr things go right so they pushed people into positions befor they were capable of doing so. They pushed programs the were not capable of delivering or delivering standardly. I did a purif and had to go all over the greater seattle area to different health clubs for saunas. I went to flag and got an auditor intraining who did not speak english and had to read the commands off a note card. At my home org, we had no auditors on staff even though they sold us services. It was incredibly discouraging and expensive. Too much expansion and nobody to handli it. What a waste of good tech.
I was fortunate to have exceptional superiors in my early years in my Sea Org career and Flag in the late 1970s was still littered with Apollo vets who were mostly very pro LRH and very realistic.
Marty, I am reading that book you reccomended ” On becoming a person” by Carl Rogers.Fascinating and he was a contemorary of LRH. It would have been interesting if he had an emeter, but oh so much arc.One can only dream.
Jay – I am clear ….then told I am not clear. I am not an auditor and so I get no-one up the bridge.
I am not complaining about the tech.
I am complaining about the church and the manner of dissemination of the tech.
I am complaining that I was told clear (which I was led to believe was an exact science of determination) – then I am told I am not clear. (So how can I follow KSW when I am not sure that we have the correct tech).
I am complaining that there are senior executives effectively held prisoner in the “hole”.
I am complaining that an OVIII that I know had such a rigorous IAS reg cycle that this person ended up re-habbing wins on OTVIII within 48 hours of attesting to the level.
I am complaining that sea org members have been deprived of sleep, encouraged to have abortions, RPF’ed on the slightest motivation and subjected to terrible and sometimes dehumanising treatment.
I am complaining that sea org members were offloaded with 500 dollars to start a new life after 20 or 30 years service, on less than minimum wage.
I am complaining that sea org members who have escaped are fair-gamed (kept under surveillance, harassed, hate sites on the web, slandered in the church.) And there is policy that encourages this.
I am complaining that staff in the orgs cannot possibly earn a living wage because the money that the field has goes into fancy buildings and IAS coffers.
I am complaining that the tech has been altered (3 swing F/N for example), OTVII’s are sec checked when there is no need. (Again , how can I follow KSW – knowing we have the correct tech)
I am complaining that we have been told that there is OTVIX etc, when there is not – and so what am I to believe about this being the only way out? (Again, how can I follow KSW – knowing we have the correct tech.)
I am complaining about the crush reg that I and many others have suffered. And when you leave the church keeps your money but does not hesitate to slander with SP declares etc.
I am complaining that the staff, sea org and public are driven to work, produce and donate and to do it NOW because of the impending doom and gloom that will prevail if we don’t. Yet the truth is that this push is causing shrinkage of membership and is inviting the collapse of the church.
I am complaining that RTC revel in the “cold chrome steel” valence – which is nowhere on the tone scale above 2.0.
I am complaining that this was probably not the intention of LRH, but his policies have been used to justify everything of which I have complained of above. How do you fix that? How do you turn that around? The church thinks it is doing EXACTLY THE RIGHT THING, because they have policy to prove it! They prey on the members and staff alike with talk (and promo) of fire and brimstone, the dwindling spiral, they create a frenzy, unless we all contribute to the church in one way or another. And yet they stock pile money, hamper people on the bridge, and do not do anything truly effective on the 4th dynamic either!.
This is why I say – you can teach a terrorist to fly a plane, but you cannot predict what he will do in the pilot’s seat. And this is why I say setting out a road map for the masses to follow is dangerous. The very human nature we are trying to rise above, is the same human nature that is enabled to infiltrate and subvert the true spirit of the tech.
It would have been better for LRH to hand pick the right people, appeal to their judgment (and not set out vast swathes of policy that are open to misinterpretation) and expanded at a slower rate.
If you disagree with me – and you may – then we will have to agree to disagree.
Gretchen,
That he was a contemporary of LRH was one of the most fascinating aspects to me. By virtue of the timing against all that he says that parallels Scientology erases a long chain of false data delivered by LRH on the subjects of psychology and psychotherapy. It opens a vast horizon of thought on the subject of the mind and spirit that before was suppressed with heavy iron.
“also , have you been getting auditing since out of the sea org”.
I have heard this 1.1 comment a few times . It is the most rude , conceited , and introverting comment of know it all “scientologist , it always made me run for the hill .
quoting experience is the last resort of the old man who feels he has nothing left to learn . Ron said it a lot better than me , somewhere.
Red wine, nicotine and some mobile phone microwaves I take.
But besides that: Since I think more than 2 years after I write a comment on this blog usually some hours later I intend to „no more commenting“. Why? I think (or dream that up) I can perceive the mental reaction of those reading my comment. Not so much the ideas but the emotions or energies involved.
Then a day or some days later I read another blog entry of Marty and I have really (by my opinion) good ideas that I feel I want to share. I tell myself then, even if only possibly one person can have a benefit of it I should write it on this blog, even if I have to confront lots of emotions that are not so comfortable for me to perceive.
OK?
Nice Linda!
I remember Ron Norton was very helpful to me in the fall of 1976, when I first graduated the Dianetics Internship in fall of 1976, I got my first FCCI pc, a pc that Ron had just “case cracked”, back when Norton was one of the 1976 era Flag case cracking auditors. The pc was in tremendous good shape after Ron’s auditing, and Ron was extremely helpful to a beginner Flag auditor like me, even though I still failed as an auditor not very long after.
.
Ron was a pretty darned good Intern Sup, for a couple years, too!
And when Ron rose up next, I think to the D/CO FSO for Production, or some kind of DCO FSO post, he was also still in that tech frame of mind, and operated on just his own high “theta” steam.
I don’t know when he became the hard ass belittling make wrong exec, but I’d say by the time he was pulled up to Int, and “cleaned up” and then he became the CO Gold, he’d gotten into the bad Sea Org exec failing habits.
I’m glad Ron’s reverted back to his better self.
Jesus Linda, do you still grade all the people you trained, from when you were D of T on the FBEC!
Sheesh Linda, I just re-listened to RJ 28, and LRH mentions the Flag Bu Exec College! 1976!
I’m telling scholars who seriously wish to frame Scientology history correctly, even beyond all the great books these last couple years, that academics HAVE to hear Hubbard talk the talk.
I think Scientology must be compared to LRH’s goals and staff and public pleas and heartfelt wishes.
RJ 67, RJ 68, RJ 28 and RJ 38 are interesting to re-listen to today.
RJ 28 and RJ 38 both mention exec training. What a lost segment of the movment exec training is today!
Per the old Flag Orders on running the OEC/FEBC, you as D of T had to keep your tabs on your graduates in their future careers? Did you?
“In the hands of uncleared people…”
This is a religious rant, imho. Firstly, words such as “clear” and “unclear” are absolutes. Secondly, you seem to be operating on the belief (aka faith) that clearing makes people “less evil” or more sane and/or intelligent; my observation of certain well-known indies/FZers (let alone churchies – including the lovely Dave) suggests that is nonsense. It’s also a slippery path from there to imply that “uncleared” people are therefore “unreliable” or “untrustworthy”. That scares me.
That’s not to say that clearing isn’t a valuable therapeutic pursuit but on its own it is not a faith – no matter how much religious significance you give to your recalls.
Perhaps that’s what this KSW debate comes down to: some people want a new faith-based Scientology “religion” and some simply want auditing as a personal route to spiritual advancement.
Wowzers! +1
Marty, I don’t disagree with your comment but am I right that you still primarily use LRH’s tech in your practice and that you audit the whole Bridge? I would imagine that you do so because of how systematic and precise it is as an actual technology and I don’t know if that is the case with Carl Rogers’, even though I get that you feel he made a great philosophical contribution. I’m very interested in your response to this.
I utilize what I learned from LRH and a whole lot of others, including some of those LRH borrowed from. I audit the whole Bridge and beyond.
Your complaints about many things about the Church are valid. I ran into a lot of that too. But instead of blowing or caving in, I fought back. While LRH was still alive I had a personal comm line with him. I still have the over 100 letters to prove it. He helped me greatly when injustices happened But even with his help it to 3 full years for it to be fully handled. Like anything on this planet things have to be defended from the insane few. So it is with the Church. One of the major issues I take with Marty and Mike is that both were in charge of the whole international network and future of Scientology and they let a little punk beat them up. They never got into comm with LRH and they could of easily have. Even when Jesse Prince said he was going to Sec Check Davey based on LRH’s orders, he never did. He reported that he found nothing to Pat Broker. If Marty, Mike and Jesse reported to LRH the hostile take over would never have happened. I hold all of them in contempt.
Okay. Not to be a pain, but you seem to be saying that you do not “primarily” use LRH tech. More like it is just a part of what you do and doesn’t particularly hold a prominent place. Do I have it right now?
Also, what do you “audit” that is beyond the Bridge?
(I hope these questions don’t come across as offensive. Not my intention)
Marty let the whole network crumble regardless of his “whistle blowing”. There were many other people who left years before MARTY OR mIKE AND TOLD THEIR STORIES TOO. There a quite of few in 20/20’s tv show logs.
I just posted the following quote on another thread, but it is applicable here too. It’s from the book *What the Buddha Taught” by Dr. Walpola Rahula:
“Here the term ‘thirst’ includes not only desire for, and attachment to, sense-pleasures, wealth and power, but also desire for, and attachment to, ideas and ideals, views, opinions, theories, conceptions and beliefs (dhamma-tanha). According to the Buddha’s analysis, all the troubles and strife in world, from little personal quarrels in families to great wars between nations and countries, arise out of this selfish ‘thirst’. From this point of view, all economic, political and social problems are rooted in this selfish ‘thirst’. Great statesmen who try to settle international disputes and talk of war and peace only in economic and political terms touch the superficialities, and never go deep into the real root of the problem. As the Buddha told Rattapala: ‘The world lacks and hankers, and is enslaved to “thirst” (tanhadao).’”
The whole book can be found at the following two links. The latter has the second edition, which has been better copyedited:
Click to access Dr_Walpola_Rahula_What_the_Buddha_Taught.pdf
Click to access bhante_walpola_rahula-what_the_buddha_taught.pdf
Update concerning the documentary about Independent Scientology, “Scientologists At War,” to be shown on Channel 4 (UK), 9pm 17 June 2013:
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/scientologists-at-war/episode-guide/series-1/episode-1
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/scientologists-at-war
The documentary is being rebroadcast throughout the week.
Channel 4 – 9:00pm Mon, 17 Jun
Channel 4 +1 – 10:00pm Mon, 17 Jun
4seven – 1:10am Tue, 18 Jun
4seven – 10:00pm Tue, 18 Jun
Channel 4 – 11:40pm Wed, 19 Jun
Channel 4 +1 – 12:40am Thu, 20 Jun
4seven 1:35am – Thu, 20 Jun
4seven 12:05am – Sun, 23 Jun
4seven 9:00pm – Sun, 23 Jun
HT – WWP: https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/scientologists-at-war-documentary-joseph-martin-roast-beef-productions-uk-channel-4-17-june.111534/page-2#post-2318808
The Scotsman preview: http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/tv-and-radio/tv-previews-the-white-queen-scientologists-at-war-1-2968569
Johnny Stringer review from a documentary film festival: http://jonnystringer.wordpress.com/2013/06/15/docfest-twenty-day-3/
“whole bridge and beyond ” brought a huge smile on my face. Don’t even know why , just did .
Marty. now that I have your attention, what are your requirements for a person wanting auditing from you? Do we have to be at a certain point on the bridge or can anyone contact you and make an appointment and fly down to Texas?
I said what I said. Interpret it as you wish. I published 500 plus pages of book and thousands of pages of blogs posts. If that doesn’t clarify, no more words will.
Okay, thanks. Sorry if I misinterpreted your last reply to me.
I can’t say that I’ve read the majority of your many blog posts and comments over the years, but I have read quite a few of them and also your first two books. My actual impression from what I’ve read has been that the tech is central to what you do. As well, I got that you find it necessary to clean up those who have been processed in the CoS and have been thrown a curve ball with regard to the basic technology, and because of the imbalance that results you sometimes use other data and/or methodologies to do so. Also, I think that I recall your having said that anyone you audit who hasn’t been on CoS lines does fine with nothing but the application of the tech – including, for example, allowing them to have their win and to go out in life and excercise their new-found abilities and make even greater gains.
I am still waiting for your third book to arrive and it will probably shed further light on the subject. Again, no offence intended – far from it.
I’m natively having a very thin fuse. A few amperes and kaboum !
I’ve seen staff having a nearly unlimited voltage fuse in their mind. I encountered somone who endured some Flag new TRs course (90’s just before GAT) for which the welcome words were :”Welcome to hell” and in which all the best Tech terminals from orgs were sweating since months being yelled at thus unable to get the product. (Pure result of a down-tone acad even it being located at Flag. Or must I say because located at Flag ? Note that we try to raise tone in Scientology as far as I understood it so far).
I also encountered peoples who went through all wars and odds seemingly untouched. How is it possible ? No fuse maybe ?
Personnally as soon as a smell of a “Dean of Technology” float in the air (as experimented in my local org from the newly CL8 who freshly graduated from Flag and was instilling fear in the acad, crashing instantly the stats as soon as she appeared in the said acad….) my fuse burn out. Then I insulate myself marking the terminal as to be avoided.
I can’t stand that kind of smell. Also public Scientologists who are status prone as professionnals who engage in constant PR about themselves trying to create an agreement so as others starts to “awe”-“wow”-“awe”-“wow”… (status prone as tech terminal is the same rule for me) are just being not knowing who they really are.
From my view those behaviors are out-valence, the person is not truly himself in such a degree that …. well my fuse has a tendency to blows then. Why are they like that ? I think the valence worked well after having been overwhelmed. This seems the best answer to me.
By the way Marty, you filled quite some gaps in my understanding of what happened in the 80’s with the shift of power. Thanks for sharing your SO story in your last book covering those crucial years of Scn history. Thanks for the highlights on the role of Mary Sue. The picture is complete. Have you ever had the idea to title your book “Thruth Revealed” ? It would have been appropriate 🙂
I want to party with you. You sound like a lot of fun. Lots of interesting conversation at cocktail parties with the ruling class.
Here’s the EP of the current cult.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=marty+rathbusn+youtube+john+allandeder&mid=51CD723430D5D472F94251CD723430D5D472F942&view=detail&FORM=VIRE7
This thread has focused on a very real problem in the Church – the generally poor, and sometimes truly awful, quality of course supervision that has occurred, and the suppressive attitude with which far too many Sea Org members have treated the public and each other. But there’s a second issue – the truth of this guy John Colletto as an individual Scientologist.
There’s a huge outpoint in the comments on that second issue. Other than Marty’s initial report, no one chiming in on what a horrible person John Colletto was has claimed to have had ANY personal experience with him at all. They’ve just dubbed in various details, and jumped on the bandwagon to vilify him, without knowing him even a little, or having any actual data other than from Marty. This is in spite of the fact that LRH insisted that (1) successful data evaluation requires data of comparable magnitude, and (2) good management requires data from multiple viewpoints. Therefore, I offer the following.
I actually DID know John Colletto. In fact, I knew him EXTREMELY WELL, both personally and as a fellow staff member. He and his wife Diane were among my closest friends. And, I can tell you that John Colletto was absolutely NOT the person imagined in the comments here. In fact, most of the time he was the OPPOSITE of that guy. He had no trace of the “Sea Org valence,” and left the S.O. largely because he COULD think for himself. Most importantly, he was completely non-robotic, and highly effective, in his application of Standard Tech.
Yes, he did end up killing his wife and himself, and that can’t be justified. But the story of John and Diane Colletto is far more complex and instructive than the one-dimensional picture painted in this thread. It was a veritable Greek tragedy.
Do you want the truth? Can you handle the truth? If so, read on.
I met Diane Hertz in Berkeley in 1969, and John Colletto a few months later in San Francisco, before they met each other. We became good personal friends outside of orgs, and remained so until they died in 1978. Diane’s mother Polly Hertz lived next door to me for 30 years. When she got Alzheimer’s several years ago despite being OT 5, I became her geriatric care manager, and saved her from psychiatric commitment twice.
Unless John was quickied through the Class 8 course and the Pro Course Sup course during the Spring of 1978, he never became a Dean of Technology. He was Class 6, OT 3, and until 1976 was the Senior C/S at Bridge Pubs. His wife Diane was the Distrib Sec at Bridge, and the editor of the Auditor journal. In 1976 John left the Sea Org, but remained married to Diane, and started the Los Feliz Mission in their one-bedroom apartment just a few blocks from the PAC base. He asked me to be his Deputy ED and Distrib Sec, which I did, and we worked together at the mission for about a year, until we couldn’t stuff any more students into the apartment. I then went on to head up the LA DMSMH campaign under Diane at Bridge.
John was a GREAT mission holder, who cared deeply about his students and pc’s. He was their friend and mentor, who guided each one with excellent judgment, using whatever LRH ethics, tech, or admin would help with the particular ruin that person needed and wanted handled at any given time. His students and pc’s got great wins, and went up the Bridge. He was a bit on the serious side, but I never saw him handle anyone the way Marty describes. I was trained and experienced as a course sup and student debugger myself, and filled in when John had to audit during regular course hours. If any of his students had been suffering from out-tech sup’ing by him, I would have detected it, and I didn’t. John also audited me a little, and did just fine. He was present, friendly, in comm, and displayed good conceptual understanding and judgment – not low-toned or robotic at all.
The proof of the high quality of John’s tech delivery was the fact that his students and pc’s kept coming back for more. In the year we worked together we started 15 people on the Comm Course, of which 12 continued. Of the 3 who didn’t, one was an obvious SP, who we refunded in the middle of the course and sent on his way. Two others were quite PTS, and we sent them to the LA Org as required by LRH policy for missions. Of the 12 who did continue, ALL 12 completed the Student Hat, HSDC, Life Repair, and got onto an R3R co-audit. Half of them joined staff, either at our mission or one of the local orgs. And several of them reached OT levels in later years. Could the guy described in the comments on this thread have achieved that? No way.
Over the next 30 years the mission went through a number of ownership changes and physical moves, and ended up as the Foothills Mission in Montrose, which at one time, before it’s FSMs got ripped off for the Pasadena Ideal Org, was one of the largest missions in the world.
Despite the great job John did at his mission, he did have a case. Physically, he was a mesomorphic, high-adrenal Sicilian you’d definitely want on your side in a street fight. When sufficiently restimulated he could get angry. That happened rarely, and I never saw it during his post hours. But it did happen, and the frequency increased over time. He eventually had a psychotic break, murdered Diane, and commited suicide. Nothing can justify that, but it’s a separate issue from his basic goodness and professional competence, which were very high. Also, certain facts should be known to put his dark side in proper perspective.
Marty mentioned that Billy Kahn was the Sea Org recruiter who promoted that Bridge had a Dean of Technology handling staff enhancement. Actually, Billy was the HAS, in charge of ethics as well as recruitment. He was also Diane’s step-brother, quite 1.1, and a promiscuous practicing homosexual. On recruiting missions he’d have casual sex with wog guys he picked up, and on occasion even hit on guys he was trying to bring into the Sea Org. Once when he was drunk at a family Christmas party he hit on me, despite knowing that I was straight.
Because of the family connection through Diane, John knew about Billy’s 2D scene going back many years. And as Senior C/S for staff enhancement at Bridge, he was determined to either help Billy or at least get his dramatization restrained, as it was destructive to the org and a potential big PR flap. This missed Billy’s witholds tremendously. He had to dead agent John, and as HAS was in a position to do so. He began third partying John to Diane.
John and Diane had already been having some difficulties in their marriage, but could always restore ARC and their love for one another through simple communication. But Billy regarded John as his enemy, and had power as the senior ethics terminal in the org. He began telling Diane to solve her marriage by ending it, and heaped third party on her about John in an effort to convince her to leave him. This naturally upset John. He and Diane would then talk it out, and all would be well again. But Billy kept repeating his black PR campaign, resulting in Diane separating from John several times, which aggravated John even more. He handled the situation with communication each time, but the situation kept escalating, even after he left the Sea Org in 1976, because Billy just wouldn’t leave it alone.
While this was going on, the Sea Org began its initial campaign to bring the missions under control. John had built his mission from scratch, in his own name as the sole proprietor, as was allowed in policy at that time. He owned his mission and all of its assets, lock, stock, and barrel. But S.O. Missionaires accused him of embezzlement because he kept cash reserves derived from mission GI in a bank account under his own name. I have no information that Billy had anything to do with this attack, but it wouldn’t surprise me if he did. John’s mission charter was revoked, and the mission was taken over by one of his graduates.
John then decided to go back into the Sea Org, which resulted in his receiving repeated, out-tech, gang-bang sec checks while unsessionable at 3 am. As a direct result of this suppression, he began having what he described to me as “mini psychotic breaks” in which it seemed to him that his OT 3 case had come back. THIS WAS ABOUT 6 WEEKS BEFORE LRH ANNOUNCED NOTS!! Not understanding what was happening to him, and dubbing in that he must have made no case gain on OT 3, John began to wonder if he might be an SP.
John would pull himself out of this growing psychosis, but the restimulation he was under continued to push him deeper into it. Finally he just gave up and let the dramatization take over. He stole a gun from one of his former students at the mission, shot Diane, and escaped. The next day he called the student, apologized for stealing the gun, and said that he was “the worst suppressive in the history of the universe,” because of what he’d done. Then he killed himself.
Afterwards, he visited me several times, always in the mock-up of a ghostly rotting corpse, alternating between evil intention and utter, self-imposed, guilty agony. The G.O. forbade me from attending his funeral in his hometown, and threatened me with declare if I did. Diane was original Full OT 7 and in good case shape. She rather smoothly went on to pick up her next body. When she got old enough, she rejoined the Sea Org.
Had NOTS been known and available at the time, and John not gotten suppressive sec checking, he could and would have handled his case, and the tragedy that befell him and Diane would not have happened. And it WAS a tragedy, because they were both outstanding at their respective hats.
A few weeks later, I heard that in order to handle Billy Kahn for his role in what had happened, LRH created the RPF’s, RPF’s, RPF, with Billy as the sole person assigned to it. The rule was this: RPFers could not talk to anyone outside the RPF. Those on the RPF’s RPF could not talk to anyone, on or off the RPF, other than themselves. And those on the RPF’s RPF’s RPF (Billy) could not talk to ANYONE, EVEN THEMSELVES, ESPECIALLY NOT THEMSELVES. Billy blew before completing the program.
We’ve all been suppressed by the Church. That makes us prone to see enemies, and to jump on the band wagon to condemn others. But we’re all basically good, too. And we need to pull together if we are to get anything done. John Colletto’s story is an extreme version of what we’ve all been through in one way or another. We have cases. Out-tech and other forms of suppression can at times drive us to become our worst selves. But that’s not who we really are, and we must never forget that.
If I’d been allowed to attend John’s funeral, I would have told him to go ahead and suffer for as long as he felt necessary, but then to come back, get cleaned up, make his amends, and get back to helping people, because as HIMSELF he was really, really good at it.
If anyone’s interested, I was angry when I started writing this. I’m crying now as I finish it.
I don’t know the full story of the events of that era. But as I understand it, LRH went into seclusion because of lawsuits and the Snow White debacle.
I wonder if you have read Marty’s latest book? In it, (if I understood him correctly) Marty recommended that the lawsuits against LRH be settled, and that (possibly/probably) would have enabled LRH to come out of seclusion. Marty was verbally beat down for hours for even thinking that. Yet after LRH’s death the case was settled (at much greater cost than might have been secured prior to LRH’s death), and Mary Sue took the brunt of the Snow White debacle (with Marty doing what he could to help her when she had to appear in court). I have wondered if LRH did not become ill because of his own responsibility in what happened to Mary Sue. I could be wrong about that.
But that stubborn refusal to settle the case (not Marty or Mike’s fault), and LRH’s continued exile, illness and death (not Marty or Mike’s fault), left a gap in the transfer of power that not even LRH seems to have anticipated.
Can you imagine being in the sea org for ten, or twenty or thirty years, and taking a decision to leave, with no-one on the outside to help, no job, no money, no friends, no home, no work history (of use in the outside world), no food, no clothes, and your purpose now undecided? Can you give these guys credit for what they did when they left, and what they do now?
And if, as you say, there were problems when LRH was alive, can we lay everything that went wrong at Miscavige’s door?
I envy your 100 LRH letters. That is a treasure, for sure.
Jay – it has been an interesting discussion. It is 01h45 in Johannesburg, so I will say goodnight.
Jay, it sounds like you are still feeling a deep deep loss for what once was. I can understand your feelings. And I’m not just acking you in a shallow way. I truly get your loss. It is a loss for a lot of people.
But we are all in in a different time now. The training wheels are off, the comfort zone is gone and new horizons are before us.
I hope I haven’t misunderstood you with my post.
Quite the rant you’ve been on there Jay. What part of the definition of “Responsibility” have you conveniently ignored?
One clue to anyone reading all of this, is that Mr. Colleto was a Class VIII auditor. By default prerequisites that would make him well above Gd IV, in fact OTIII itself is a prereq. as I recall. So your earlier argument has a significant leak, taking on big water.
You received a hundred letters from LRH? Were they ink stamped signed by any chance?
Now I’m going to make you wrong, if not clueless, just a heads up.
You say people in general didn’t duplicate LRH, as if that is some unique revelation, and go so far as to include certain individuals herein. That a handful of CLVIII’s somehow made it through while remaining asswipes is no big mystery, but the vast majority remain the most important people on this planet insofar as spiritual ability to help others. One of my best friends of 30 years is a CLVIII, and I can just see him chuckling to himself through your tirade.
One of the things I realized early on in Scientology is that we attract ruined individuals, and by and large turned them around to at least having something of a life to live with better perception and instead of caved in and numb, actually feeling again the world around them. That a handful of hotshot dipwads made it through complete with their PR intact, outright fabrications and holier-than-thou attitudes, well, it’s a simple fact, but knowledge is ever humbling, make no mistake. Something you may have missed.
Warren – Diogenes – this explains you to me. On several counts this comm of yours may be the ultimate in manfestoes against going anywhere near Scientology.
Thanks. The following has been posted as the Welcome section of this blog since before the first post and continuously till now:
I was a member of the Sea Organization for twenty-seven years. I learned how to audit and troubleshoot virtually any technical problem at every level of Scientology. For years prior to leaving the Church I was regularly called upon by its top-ranking members to resolve its toughest and, in many instances, most high profile cases.
Having dug myself out of the dark pit where many who leave the Church land, I began lending a hand to others similarly situated.
A lot of folks seem to be suffering from the inculcated idea that once they depart or cease to slavishly follow every arbitrary dictate they automatically forfeit any spiritual gains they may have attained along the road. Natively conscientious as most beings are, such an evaluation can begin a pernicious dwindlng spiral of self-invalidation and unhappiness.
I understand this phenomenon and the internal dichotomies extant within the organization that bring it about. In the process of reversing the decline in myself and in others certain lessons were learned that might be of some assistance to those who have experienced the same.
I offer a simple program of rehabilitation of previously recognized abilities and education on universal truths and principles of spiritual growth. I do not offer a substitute for Scientology nor am in competition with the Church. I am only offering to share all the skills I have learned – from a wide variety of sources – to help those in need who once formally participated in Scientology but who now hold no hope nor intention of ever seeking help from the Church.
My services cost whatever you think they are worth, within your means, after completion. I ask that you pay me one-half of whatever you determine that value to be when you head back home. Then, if after a month you believe your original estimation was correct you can send me the other half, or not. It is entirely up to you.
Have many people here tried nondualist meditation (like Zen or Vedanta or the likes)?
Just curious
You still have with holds from Marty, Tom. And everyone else reading this blog. If you want to start a comm ev why don’t we go back and clean up the earlier situation that was never fully addressed here on this public forum? That would be using K.S.W. to help man overcome his evil ways.
There are people who simply can not operate as associated terminals. But that is WAAAY up there.
The ruling class is at false significance s.
They use police types to control the masses beneath them as they see them as menacing particles. You are only viewing Marty as a menacing particle. That positions YOU on a scale.
From ORG series 23.
(HCO PL 16 February 1971,
Lines and Terminals)
There is a scale concerning Lines and Terminals.
ASSOCIATED TERMINALS
SIGNIFICANCES
FALSE TERMINALS
MISDIRECTED LINES
WRONG PARTICLES
FALSE SIGNIFICANCES
(Rumors)
MYSTERIOUS TERMINALS
CHAOTIC LINES
MENACING PARTICLES
DANGEROUS IMPRESSIONS
NON-EXISTENT TERMINALS
NON-EXISTENT LINES
NON-EXISTENT PARTICLES
UNCONSCIOUS IMPULSES
THE CHAOS OF UNHAPPY NOTHINGNESS
The purpose of police is to run control on the masses and cover the asses of the ruling class.
This is why David Miscavige is never sent to the M.A.A.. The M.A.A. is not for HIM. The M.A.A. is not for the ruling class. It is to control the class that is ruled, and cover the ass of the ruling class. That is why spokespeople and O.S.A. for the Church spread false reports to the media and lie to millions with no regard for ethics and justice. It is NOT for THEM.
I think the suppression in the Orgs comes from within, not from with out. It the police mocked up to rule and control the class that is ruled. But in Scientology you have people come into self determinsim and they choose NOT to be ruled by Officers of any sort. And they bust out the back door.
I think the suppression in the Church comes from the ruling class. And as people move up the bridge, if they really make it, they get to a place where they do not want to be shuffled around by the ruling class.
This is ANCIENT social intercourse. It is not new at all.
Your condemnation of the “UNCLEARED” is another MASS DECLARE.
I’ve made a belated New Year’s resolution to cease arguing with blog and Facebook group owners, so if we have a comm cycle regarding my post, it won’t end up like some of our previous ones did. I don’t understand the meaning of your reply, and I’d like to. Would you please flesh it out a little?
“What was the product in your hands when you were IG Ethics? What was the product in Debbie Cooks hands when she was CO FSO?”
What is the product of this reactive mind throwing up “the past” to dominate and control?
Tom M. said:
“Does Scientology have workable technology to delete mans evilness?”
You mean handle the uncleared evil menacing particle?
I have no idea whom else exlpored Scientology or invested in it because they were obsessed with deleting “man’s evilness”. Which man and what evilness? That is one hell of a generality. All men are evil?
Menacing particles? Here we go again! With the Holy / Evil “I am holy and you are evil and all men are evil” routine.
I suppose you are one of the “Chosen” Tom. To carry the torch for the only hope for the evils and uncleared.
Notice Hubbard’s Sea Org slogan borrow from the Bible?
Great that you re-posted that! It rings a bell and I’m sure I read it back in 2009 after I saw you on Nightline. That show, btw, was what tipped me off to what was going outside of the CoS, on the internet. Especially the interview of you as I had remembered you from events and seeing you (at a distance) when you were on the base at Flag. I got a very good impression of both you and your then wife – you, by your presence alone. Anyway, I knew without a doubt that you were telling the truth in that interview and I immediately looked you up on the internet – what you said completely aligned with my perception of Miscavige as a not-very-benevolent dictator (I literally thought of him as a “dictator” – to myself only, of course). But back in 2009 I still had a lot to learn about my own cultish indoctrination and your blog has been invaluable in that regard.
In fact, reading your welcome page just now in a new unit of time tells me that I must have read it the first time through my “Scn-indoctrinated glasses” because I came away with the impression that you were simply talking about Scientology “done right” – which aligned with my own observations of it having been corrupted. That impression of you was how I continued to view your posts and it was reinforced in particular by the fact that you audited your own wife to Clear (which wasn’t all that long ago, if I remember right). I assumed at the time that you would be taking her through the OT Levels next, but now I’m not so sure you deem that necessary or even advisable. Be that as it may, I got it better now that you do have a very high regard for at least the lower levels of the Bridge (and I admit that I would be disappointed if you didn’t since that has been and is my own view of the tech, based on my personal experience on different flows), but I also see much more clearly now that you are not at all limited by that particular method of helping others, and that you are completely free to use whatever else you find workable. And I get that you continue to be open to new understandings and methodologies – as it should be! Thanks for all you’ve done and do. This exchange made my day 🙂
Have you read my latest book?
Ron missed it when he wrote “PTS to the middle class”.
He was PTS to the ruling class when he wrote: ” It’s a poor man who isn’t king in some corner. Form a group and stop being poor.”
Form a group and elect yourself to rule it! Become part of the ruling class!
I think 99.9% of the people on this planet are PTS to the ruling class.
What is the middle class except people moving upwards towards the ruling class?
What are the M.A.A.’s and police for if not to run herd for the ruling class and cover their ass.
See the xwives video above. Jenny states on national television all of this conflict is loss of glory power and money within the ruling class.
Warren – I too experienced an emotional change as I read what you wrote. Tis so true – we do not understand another until we have walked in their shoes. This journey we have all, in one way or another, started upon is not without its tears. This is but another story of a being, basically good and with the intention to help others, brought to a very sad state by the misapplication of simple caring. True caring for the state of another disturbed soul. You show by your story you understood and attempted to do what you could. That is very honorable. Thank you for your integrity. Now I will have a moment of silence and collect my thoughts. The confront of evil is never an easy thing. Reminders of our own failures to act in the past are brought to the fore in reading stories such as yours. I look forward to the day when I can fully understand myself, others and the universe we create and interact within.
If you had been able to attend the funeral I believe the following video would have communicated your intent. If I am not correct please just know this is my concept of what would be appropriate and not to tell you what you meant or intended to do.
All of us can be reminded of the simple truth’s in life.
HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE
Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex
HCO POLICY LETTER OF 5 JULY 1957
Remimeo
Dept of Clearing Hats
FSMs
BPI
LONESOME?
(Originally issued as an article in Ability 50 on
5 July 1957. Issued as an HCO PL on 5 Oct. 87.)
Lonesome?
Have people who don’t know Scientology stopped making “sense” to you?
Start a group.
When the groups in Chicago, LA and Houston have pushed out to the city limits, we hope they will continue to expand until they find themselves merged with New York, Seattle and Miami.
If Scientology is ever to travel, it will be accomplished by groups.
I hope to see the AMA defined as “that building in Chicago which is totally surrounded by Scientology groups.” And the government in Washington defined as “that group which has not yet been validated.” And Earth defined as “that planet where people settle things peacefully via Scientology groups.”
Scientology is basically communication. If you knew all the wisdom in the universe and had none to whom you could communicate, you would still be unhappy.
People don’t bite. Ask them over to a sociable evening to discuss forming a mental health group. When they get there, don’t ask them to join. Just elect them as officers. Get them to agree on future meetings and the programs.
Assume they want to know more about Scientology. Explain Scientology offhandedly as though it’s sort of strange they don’t know and get on with group organization and business.
Don’t run Decisional Processing on them. Assume they’ve decided and lo! you’ve got a group.
Groups fail to form in absence of purpose. People fail to join in absence of purpose they can understand.
Mock up the purpose. Invite in the people. Form up a program around the purpose and away you go.
If you don’t have one, it’s because you’ve been trying to explain Scientology to people and so get them to join. Just get them to join and let Scientology soak in.
A group is fun.
A group is communication.
A group is society.
It’s a poor man who isn’t king in some corner. Form a group and stop being poor.
Form a group.
L. RON HUBBARD
Founder
“Groups fail to form in absence of purpose. People fail to join in absence of purpose they can understand.
Mock up the purpose. Invite in the people. Form up a program around the purpose and away you go.”
“I hope to see the AMA defined as “that building in Chicago which is totally surrounded by Scientology groups.” And the government in Washington defined as “that group which has not yet been validated.”
“It’s a poor man who isn’t king in some corner. Form a group and stop being poor.”
“Just elect them as officers.”
Thank you for listening!
Marty, he must have been a 100% standardly trained Class VIII! 🙂
No. I’ll eventually get around to it. Right now, though, I’d just appreciate knowing what explanation of me my post provided you with. Also, how does what I said argue against ALL involvement with Scientology, regardless of who’s delivering it?
I don’t know why people think has anything to do with Scientology. Except the people were working by that place.
The guy had a life before Scientology and a set of morals and codes of his own. Until about 50 years ago it was perfectly acceptable to shoot your wife in the head for disobedience. In some states, the ones where women were considered property, you were not even required to report it. It is still this way in many countries today. Other men did not question men when such incidents occurred. It was considered a domestic situation and nobodies business.
There are plenty of women living in our country today, right now that would not dare turn against their spouse and go on the side of the “Ruling class” for fear of retribution.
There is so much agreement about this between out biggest hustlers and politicians, (congressman) That is is written in law that a woman can not be compelled to testify against her husband in a courtroom.
The only place I know of where women are compelled to turn against their mates is in the Church of Scientology.
Well, maybe that was new news for John whatever his name was.
This idea that you can have an identity memory swipe by undergoing clearing and pop out this “new identity” as a result of reading and auditing
gets stretched a little far.
To the extent that you can not own who you are, where you have been, or still be a part of that, you are becoming more abberated, not less abberated.
To the extent that you have to surrender any of what you are, to be accredited in Scientology, promotes self aggression and self destruction towards yourself.
Maybe he shot her because that’s the way he rolls, Scientology or not.
How many people has the Church shot down for breaking rank?
John was just A to B, overt and honest about it. I think that may be a testament to his training through class Vlll and his commitment to “win or die” in the attempt.
Warren, Thanks for providing the fuller picture re Coletto. I was speaking today with someone who is currently under attack from an estranged “OT” ex-husband and knowing what I knew of the individual, I said that Scn has the ability to bring out both the best and worst in a person. Yours and Marty’s story in combination amplifies that in spades. A dangerous potion. Be well.
When I was in D.C. getting my grades Bill Franks was the E.D. and his wife, Jeannie, was the C/S. I was told by one staff member there, who was quite upset about it, that Bill beat up on Jeannie all of time, right in the C/S office in front of other staff at times. Also that he had beaten the staff member that was telling me about this.
He got promoted way up lines to E.D. Int or W.D.C. or some ruling class post. Domestic abuse didn’t out qual HIM to be all the way at the top of the Org Board.
If John didn’t have history of domestic abuse, someone would not have set Marty up as a guard. I have a feeling data was with held from Marty and he was set up with missing info. What did Marty have to do with John’s misery? Nothing! Whoever pissed John off should have been out there looking to handle it. WHY were they ALL so afraid? They knew something Marty didn’t know. And they didn’t tell him. I suspect his wife was not the first person he unmocked.
Wow Warren, Thanks for sharing your story. It seems the personal experiences we have with other people both good and bad, help us to understand our own experiences and understandings.
I was actually never interested or curious about taking a closer look at Hubbard or the Church, until I met Ken Urquhart around 1995. After he spent some time with us and I came to really know him, the thought that Hubbard had friends like Ken, impressed me greatly.
The thought that anyone could leave behind a friend like Ken, also made me curious about Hubbard for the first time. I consider myself to be very fortunate to have lived a life that I could even know a man like Ken. The thought that Hubbard could cut lines with a friend like that made me ask myself for the first time, who Hubbard really was. I decided that was important to know. Because no matter the wisdom Hubbard shared that caused me to live a different life, I place great value on how people treat their friends. For me, this is the essence of a person’s nature.
If you can’t be good to your friends, the rest doesn’t really matter.
It seems John was many things to many different people. And that Marty met him after a long history of injustice on his lines that bought him to an angry and bitter place. He must have had a lot of wrong items and wrong indications on his lines.
But you seem like a man who is a good friend to have. He had reasons to be glad as well.
So I take it you won.t be buying tickets to this years policeman’s ball?
Warren, thanks for enlightning John’s story. It makes my point : overwhelmed.
I’ve known other John’s Colletto wearing different names. Some beings I have come accross who were highly ranked in tech (I’ve known 2 class 8 persons graduated at the end of the 90’s and one who has not finished the grade and went out) and who “burned a fuse while keeping at it” were basically good beings. One more wrong indication to them throwed them on the verge of craziness or sickness and death. One of the two who were holding the Sen C/S CL8 post died. The other one is no more on post and has been removed due to a dark story plus having physical problems. See the HCO BULLETIN OF 23 JANUARY 1974RB THE TECHNICAL BREAKTHROUGH OF 1973 – THE INTROSPECTION RD. It brings lots of understanding.
I always thought that reference was for poor psychos guys. Wrong I was. As soon as one reaches the limit of being overwhelmed that’s it. My observation is that it applies whatever the level of case, at least as long as there is some case. And I’m wondering if it applies also for one without case. To where can you pressure a being and hammer him with false-wrong indications, duress etc.. ? To Death. We call that suppression.
Marty spoke of “witnessing” awhile ago — it could also be called “noticing”
Here’s a succinct explanation of the difference between “noticing” and “judgment”
“As Dharma practitioners we have to remind ourselves everyday. “More noticing, less judgements.” Not judging is key! Why? Because judgement is the problem, it drains the mind of positivity. You can’t be happy with a mind full of judgement. Judgement is the opposite of Dharma. So we have to tame our judgement mind. If you see your judgement, your ego is always sneaking around right behind it, ego follows judgement like a tail.
So, instead you simply notice. Notice your faults, your always finding faults in others, notice your habits, your blame, your guilt, your negative emotions, being too hard on yourself. Noticing is non-judgmental awareness that is free from good or bad. Noticing is free from forming conclusions about yourself and others, it’s free from ego, free from our fixed ideas. So noticing takes patience, and a sense of humor, and it gives you a great sense of dignity because you know that you can change. THE MORE YOU NOTICE, THE MORE YOU WILL SEE THE SKILLFUL WAYS TO DEAL WITH ALL SITUATIONS. YOU WILL KNOW WHAT TO DO.”
Phatchok Rinpoche
—————————
Caps are mine — the more aware you become the more you will always know what to do. Awareness helps bring about the ability to deal in all situations.
Show it to someone who has no involvement in Scientology, then ask him. In a word, your’s is an essay using Scientology ‘reason’ to justify cold-blooded murder.
My experience in the SO was that, despite the humanity among comrades and few close friendships, the whole system was designed to turn good people into assholes, simply because you couldn’t survive othervise. It’s easy to see it now, but starting from military uniforms, to KSW PL, the “Toughness” flag order, the high crimes list, the definition of “reasonable”, the ethics purpose (remove other-intentions leaving individuals to pursue only LRH or command intention) and actions (including disconnection) were a steady process of de-humanization in the name of “help”. What a trap.
I liked what you wrote Warren. Thank you.
Laughter! I actually don’t have anything against cops. They just work an hourly wage. The Church of Scientology can put them under their command in any city, and own them and pay them regularly. And the Church uses them too. They work for the ruling class, so do I. I don’t have problems with the ruling class either. Over time they have had more resources for education and advancement. They have their own burdens too. People go effect of them to the extent that they depend on them. I wouldn’t say they are a menace to society by any means.
But they have a higher duty to care for those they make dependent upon them, and to use their positions and means to make the world a better place for all. A simple understanding of these dynamics illustrates everyone’s value in this world of exchange.
The more you HAVE, the more you can GIVE and DO for others. That is the way it is supposed to go. That is why people are supposed to be part of a ruling class, to make the world a better place.
NOT to run all over dead bodies and herd slaves left right front and center. NOT to tax people into the ground. NOT to throw people out on the street once you have no use for them. NOT to put people in uniforms and give them the idea they are now part of the ruling class, when they are actually slaves and servants and police. And have no idea what being part of ruling class means in terms of obligations and responsibilities and trusts with others.
Frankly, the ruling class is as needy and dependent as everyone else. They just keep it well hidden.
The farmers hold the real power in this world. With out them, everyone would starve to death.
Everyone else just has bigger or smaller roofs over their head.
Without them, there would be no wine, no beer, no liquor and yes, no cocktails either.
+1
Thank you for adding to my learning, WH. Powerful and empowering.
And the lives of the ruling class are always in the palm of the cook.
The word “condescending” comes to mind. It’s a cool word and I don’t get to use it that much. Thanks Alanzo.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on that.
Very nice. Thank you.
Well in any case, this murder by John Colleto of his wife, was something that went ahead, and happened, despite people’s Scientology efforts (the RPF program) to “fix” John Colleto.
Scientology has its Sea Org, and the Sea Org has the RPF, to supposedly deal with a human being’s “evil impulses”, and the RPF has tighter area control, watching the RPF members, supposedly preventing them from harming the other staff in particular, is one of the reasons for segregating the RPF members away from the rest of the Sea Org staff. It’s to ensure the RPF category of Sea Org members are NOT harming the rest of the Sea Org team members.
Overall, I see dealng with human deep mental troubles as a difficult career zone to get into.
Scientology does still get into that zone, but mostly, today, the Sea Org and org staffs have “qualifications” checklists they are supposed to weed out mentally unbalanced people from even joining staffs.
Personally, I’d say the whole system is faulty, not only the screening, but the RPF program is a wrong whole program, rather the candidates for the RPF should rather be retired out of the Sea Org in a more honorable discharge like fashion, and just tell those Sea Org staffers they get their “case” handling at their own expense like normal parishioners.
Sea Org members warranting sending to the RPF, rather should be honorably discharged, not condemned and labelled dishonorably, since usually almost all people joining the Sea Org do so for honorable and self-sacrificing reasons.
It’s the condemnatory nature of all the rules that paint people who warrant for a whole host of wrong reasons, rather those Sea Org members ought just be allowed to honorably retire.
There’s so negative labels and rules, that paint people badly, that add up to a lot of really negative control and reputation smearing.
The different methods long term Sea Org members have to rely upon, to maintain their sense of self worth, over their years in the Sea Org, is a huge long story for each Sea Org vet.
Murdering one’s spouse is just wrong across the boards, and I’d agree it’s a deeper ill than the Sea Org solutions (RPF’s false purpose and evil purpose pseudo-therapy solution).
How Sea Org or Org staffs deal with spousal abuse that goes on, is worthy of discussion and criticism of the Sea Org rules and Org staff rules, and their handlings, are all open to discussion.
I’d say the more effective long term Sea Org and staff solution, is what has slowly evolved though, which is screening staff qualifications more thoroughly at the hiring front end of one’s staff career, so that troubled people with serious issues are screened out before hiring them..
But my experience on the RPF, I thought more honorably opening up what we call the “back door”, to let staff go, I’d lighten way up, and stop making the “back end” process such a condemnatory action.
In my case, I have to say leaving the Sea Org, via the RPF was not a condemnatory process, I felt no condemnation, when I asked, and was finally granted “okay” to route out of the Sea Org, via the RPF. But I tried to mind my Ps and Qs, not to jeopardize what I understood were all those invisible lines of towing the party line, in order to get out.
Luckily on the PAC RPF, there is not a heavy condemnatory attitude to those “routing out” of it, and that’s overall a wise attitude, at least that was my experience in 2003.
The Int Base attitude of scathing condemnation for Sea Org RPF member’s wishing to leave, just wasn’t present at the PAC RPF that I witnessed.
Personally I don’t think the RPF was the right thing for John. He should have been routed out, and his wife allowed to route out with him.
When one Sea Org member goes to the RPF, and then rebels against RPF rules, and cannot stand the RPF circumstances, then that married couple ought be honorably allowed to leave the Sea Org together, and NOT be pressured in any way, to split up.
Honorably and smoothly leaving out of the Sea Org, that whole “back door” process needs be made a sane non condemnatory process.
Though me and SKM have been probably put in the same category as “whatever Scientologists” we don’t feel or consider alike.
SKM, why are you picking on Schorsch? I would like to see specifics from Scientologists than invalidations of the type “what do you take”.
By the way i take some beers every day and nicotine like Schorsch and I don’t mind at all since i have no senior above me anymore.
So, SKM, please be specific, even in your invalidations. I actually find those comments not Scientology at all. Generalities and one-sentence-invalidations. Please specify and state your disagreements.
Wow, Marildi… that was a good comm cycle between you and Marty. I hope Marty can clarify “I audit the whole Bridge and beyond”
Hi Chuck!!
Yeah, Norton was a hoot. Very capable. Very caring. He became Chief Officer when Brian Patrick was put on as Captain. I became Supercargo. We had a pretty good time. Then Brian got busted (praise the lord). Ron became Captain and hung in there pretty well for a while. But he wasn’t hatted and down he went. He got into the money thing and started getting huge book bonuses – thus his corvette and it all went to hell from there. He and Jon Lundeen were tight (with Jon pulling in all manner of bonuses and so forth). It was the beginning of the end for ‘ol Norton; long slide down the chute, until he ended up a Screamer (and a trained screamer at that).
The ’76 OEC/FEBC was just fun: you, Al Baker, Glen Hackenberg and Ray Facteau. I think we were pretty darn good. I don’t recall having follow-up instructions on graduates in their careers, but I do distinctly recall following up on the grads when they returned to their orgs. It was only when they were successful after 3 months on post, did we get a stat for them. We just graduated them and watched. Nice.
Those were the days. It’s during this period that I got 3 Very Highly Commedneds from LRH.
Those were the days.
Linda
Windhorse, this is exactly what I am working on in my meditation at this time. I realized I had a whole lifetime of judgement leading to criticism of myself and others. It was not making me happy at all. That said, we are on Martys blog to express our feelings, learn and move forward and that does make me happy. although I am not sure happiness itself is the end all and be all in this life. I always love your posts.
The last comm I had with John (in the flesh) was 2 days before he killed Diane. He came to my home, and thanked me for being “a good friend.” I didn’t understand his larger meaning at the time, and wish like hell that I did. He was saying good-bye.
I don’t think it will mean a confounded thing to you until you have completed the entire bridge – particularly to the extent you insist it is the only route to freedom.
And that in a nutshell is what is wrong with Scientology.
Make no mistake. John was entirely responsible for his own condition, his own decisions, and his own actions. He has some VERY big amends to do. But that doesn’t lessen the overts of the people who acted with the intention to destroy him. The way he was “handled” by them was a precursor of what was to come later in volume.
You are so wrapped up in dichotomies, good vs evil, I think you are a walking advterisement for folks to steer clear of Scientology.
I liked all of what you had to say Warren. You appear to be a man with a very big heart. Thank you.
Thank you Marty, my sentiments exactly.
Early on in this blog, you said something to the effect that Scientology works best when used outside the confines of inculcated group thinking. To me, that observation was never truer than after reading the above.
Warren, I know you meant well. But this incident was all long before Miscavige. To me, it shows the deep flaws that exist in the system.
So it was fully premeditated. Nice.
Yes. After he gave up his long fight to stay in PT despite his growing restimulation, he made the decision to let his OT case take control. That’s the definition of psychosis. He then planned and executed an ambush.
I never said John DIDN’T go fully crazy in the end, only that he wasn’t the one-dimensional guy described in the many comments from people who never knew him.
The wide difference between your regular person and the ruling class, is the amount of vias they use. Your regular guy will go straight to the garden and pick his cucumber. Take it to the kitchen and and wash it, and eat it. A member of the ruling class, his cucumber is going to go through many, many vias from dirt to mouth. A member of the ruling class is just propped up with all kinds of vias. Until he is experiencing life through vias. He begins to rule the vias he lives through.
A lot of folk do not care to live through vias.
Let’s take a look at how a man like David Miscavige of the ruling class has his lunch. It starts with some guy, say in Alaska. This guy goes out and works for a few years saving a little at a time, on a weekly basis, for a few years or ten years. One day he has enough saved up to go to Florida to visit the Flag Land Base. He arrives at the airport having been flown there by several contributing factors. On the labor of hundreds if not thousands of people. He arrives in Florida and is greeted by a begging crew of David Miscavige. They finally convince him to “donate” a few years worth of his pay. Most of this is sorted out in the treasury division and through several other people’s labor, arrives in bank accounts David controls. Some of it is then given to kitchen help who order food and through several people, some few dollars finally arrives to the farmer. Meanwhile there is a scurry shopping for the finest ingredients and the kitchen help to to deliver and shop for it, clean it and prepare it, to finally get David’s two or three choices prepared to offer up for his pleasure. It just took the effort of thousands of people he must depend upon to sit down to eat lunch.
No matter how “important” he views himself as these others lat down to service and feed him, doing the math, he is a liability. When it takes all that to eat lunch, you are a liability.
Gandhi freed a nation with no use of force, by NOT laying down to the ruling class, and by persistent reasoning abilities and communication. So, one can get things accomplished without being part of the ruling class or laying down for them. Of course, we are not supposed to notice he counted or mattered for anything. He was an “uncleared”.
Just consider the amount of effort, labor, energy and expense and life spent, for a man like David Miscavige to sit down at lunch and make nothing out of a mass of food on his plate. This is the plight of the ruling class. While others profit off of this self importance.
That is really fucking sad.
Unless you are lucky enough to be working for the law firm that handles his flaps. The liquor store that ships his Scotch. The tailor that makes his clothes. The farmer that grows his food. The Monte Blanc pen manufacturer who makes his pens. The tanning bed engineer that designed his tanning bed. The bell hop who checks him into Hotels. The limo driver that chauffeurs him about. And a host of others that profit from the self importance. David, all of these people, and all the staff in the Church, live off the backs of simple beggars. I simply prefer to have the power, than the prestige.
I absolutely agree that the system was flawed. Before 1976, NOTS was unknown, and that was a major factor in what happened to John and Diane. More importantly, though, the admin system was never able to ensure that those with power in the organization were worthy of wielding it. Billy Kahn and the S.O. missionaires who unjustly took John’s mission from him, and the gang-bang sec checkers who then pushed him over the edge, were all just way too low toned and aberrated to be trusted with the power they were given. That was the real situation, and still is the situation in the Church.
But that doesn’t mean that Scientology as a whole should be abandoned or diluted. Certain aspects of it work well and should be used as issued, while other aspects, mainly on the admin side, have led to a lot of Nazi-cult trouble and should be changed, as LRH provided for in the Danger Formula and Group Dianetics. If that’s “evolution and transcendence,” so be it. But I don’t agree that there’s anything fundamentally inadequate in the auditing tech in the hands of high-toned practitioners, at least in terms of making sane people at some highly desirable level BELOW that of Jedi Knights and Greek gods. With the addition of NOTS, the tech would have been good enough to prevent the tragedy of John and Diane, if it had been properly applied.
But in this thread I really don’t want to get into a discussion of the larger issues of how to fix the admin system, or how to extend the auditing tech into the development of completely stable OT powers, or argue with anyone over whether or not they’re making an A=A between Scientology tech and suppressive application of it. Those are important issues, but my original comment was only to correct the erroneous picture that was being painted of John Colletto, and to delve a little into the underlying tendency of people to erect such erroneous images. I got a wrong indication reading some of the jumping-on-the-bandwagon comments about John, and just had to make the correction I did. If he’d lived, he’d have been outside the Church with us, not inside as a Nazi robot. Let’s leave it at that, please, at least in this thread.
Well, one of the dichotomies I’m no longer so wrapped up in is arguing with blog owners, so I have nothing more to say.
Oracle, just want to insert that Tom is a very down to
earth and good man. I know him quite well and he is
a friend who you would love to have around when your
life gets rough. Read his book on Vietnam and you will
get a glimps of his survival potential. On top of that he
pulled in a wife who is way, way above the average.
Your comment on valence brought something to mind that I was mulling over recently.
In reflecting over some past experiences (in particular one where a staffer was trying to get me back in some years ago), I realized that a good number of Scientology members I have known really did not have their TRs in. Specifically, they did not have TR0 in. Why? In my observation they were busy doing something — exhibiting the valence of what supposedly was being a Scientologist with TRs in. They weren’t just being there. They were doing something and doing it with a lot of energy and intensity and clone-like consistency.
Now, if they had just done TR0 (and other TRs) without the valence crap added on, I think they would have been a lot more successful in every way. I think most of us have a need for authentic connection with others that can only be achieved through being there and “granting beingness” to others.
Only a few million?
Hell, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
Put another way, how many imaginary circuits or thought projections can a human mind create?
Certainly more than a few million. I think some of the OT levels were missing some detail that Miscavige maybe took out: the EP that you really are mocking it all up!
Theo, as you know “beyond” can mean “superior to” but it also has the meaning of “outside the limits of”, and I think Marty means the latter. My take on his viewpoint is based not just on the exchange we had but on what he’s written in many of the last dozen blog posts and some earlier ones.
I get that he feels Scientology tech is unparalleled for what it does and as far as it goes, but that it can create an unbalanced attitude or approach to life, at least the version of tech that’s practiced in the CoS and I believe most of his pc’s have had that version. For that reason, he feels the tech should be supplemented, i.e. he counsels the pc “beyond” it by directing them to one or more of the philosophical viewpoints or practices described in the books on his list of reading recommendations. An example on that list is the book Buddha’s Brain, and here’s an excerpt of his review of it:
“Buddha’s Brain provides great food for thought and correlation to those trained in Dianetics and Scientology. The authors’ description of science’s 2009 understanding of the human brain is remarkably consistent with L. Ron Hubbard’s 1950 description of the reactive mind in Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health. They describe the brain as being hardwired for avoiding danger, taking precedence over behavior/action patterns that seek pleasure or reward. They describe how transcendent states attained through contemplative practice – their main frame of reference being Buddhism – erase reactive neuron channels and create new, more analytical, intelligent and rational ones.”
I figure a pc reading that book would find that it embellishes what he already knew about the mind, and he may even decide to learn the “contemplative practice” the authors describe, so as to handle the bad effects that occurred in his previous auditing or to achieve certain gains he hadn’t achieved or enhance the ones he did achieve. That’s how I see it now.
Thank you Lars for your interest. I suggest you contact Tom and ask Tom what I have done for him, when his life got rough. Ask Tom what I have done for Tom. And ask Tom what he has done for me. To get a fair idea of my exchanges and history with Tom.
I have never implied Tom is a bad man or evil. It is Tom making the assertions here and conducting an interrogation on a public forum.
I would in no way want to this to be the beginning of conflict between peoples here and especially, not between you and I.
And I hope this was not the intention behind Tom’s post.
If Tom has some personal conflict with Marty, I would hope he could pick up the telephone and give Marty a call, and use Scientology to repair any misunderstandings.
Tom’s post began like this: “Marty, I think you might be pontificating when you have limited experience in matters of life. “
Well done just for standing up for what u stand for so hard to email u keep fighting
Thank you T.O. for this. I have seen it with some people who came to me because their last auditor or Cs felt quicky was okay, with lots of justifiers.
There is NO need to try to do it quick. Do it complete, do not skip. It will cause you to lose respect for yourself (which you can get back with correction and ethics!)
cheers,
Frank
Thanks Oracle for helping to shine a bit more light on this.
Marty will never understand the irony.
You are wrong, I noted it as 1.1 the moment I saw it just as I did with your comment.
XXOO
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