Those who obsess on the motivator (object of victimhood attachment) about how David Miscavige is scientology’s problem because he keeps revising scientology are like dogs barking up the wrong tree. There is a plain fact they are not coming to grips with. Scientology will forever be altered, revised, re-revised, repackaged, re-organized, and re-compiled. People on the outside have been at it as hard as scientology organization folk are on the inside. It is inevitable. That is not because misunderstood words, the reactive mind or body thetans will forever keep people confused and incapable of applying one-hundred percent scientology standard technology. Nor will it be because of the unstated (except in confidential upper level secrets), but actually held, scientology belief that humankind can’t get it because humankind is inherently incapable of understanding. Instead, scientology will continuously be revised because there is no such thing as standard scientology technology. Like the substance of scientology itself, what constitutes the standard is wholly a subjective matter.
That fact is obvious if one can unlock himself from identifying with L. Ron Hubbard and his work and read the latter dispassionately. That of course is impossible for those who vow from the outset of their studies – and stick with it all the way through – to the notion that Hubbard is infallible and examination of any comparative data is potentially lethal. When one who can objectively study scientology does so – particularly when he has tested its methods through extensive practice – something becomes patently clear. That is by conservative estimate more than ninety (90) percent of everything Hubbard wrote and uttered on scientology and dianetics was about how wrong all those who attempted to apply it were. It is mostly a running stream of consciousness (albeit held together by a hard core, two-valued logic and persuasively conveyed by a convincing speaker and writer) record of assigning reasons why the promises in the book Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health were never realized and how they might yet be. Highlighting that statement is Dianetics’ promise of full memory restoration in 1950 and Hubbard’s last ‘breakthrough’ (OT VIII) – as his 1986 dying declaration – promising to address the reason folk are apparently inherently amnesiacs.
Exacerbating the confusion is that many of the methods Ron educates his followers on as the mechanics intentionally used to control and damage the mind are simultaneously employed by him to do precisely that to his followers. It is diabolical in that the follower having been educated by Ron on those mental entrapment techniques would then never guess they would be used on the follower. You wind up with the curious phenomenon of apparently sincere people devoting their lives to vehemently defending their own entrapment.
There is another reason why the obvious is nearly impossible for a scientologist to see. If there is one skill Hubbard had that perhaps outstripped all others it was his ability to always convincingly sound right while making others wrong. That skill was exercised as consistently and as uncannily as a falling cat’s ability to land on its feet. From before the publication of Dianetics, Ron Hubbard proved as immovable as a mountain on being criticized, corrected, or accepting even the most rational of input and advice. Just as consistently, he rained hell on anyone with the temerity to suggest holding his theories up to objective standards. When he said or wrote something it was communicated convincingly and in an authoritative fashion. For the next thirty-six years he evolved his subjects by trial and error. But, the running track of that development was memorialized in a unique voice. While the track altered and changed everything over and over because of unworkability found with that which was at first communicated as unalterable, absolute fact, the voice of those continuous alterations could admit of no error. The matter is exacerbated by the fact that it is a ‘research and development’ record based exclusively on subjective standards. With no objective scrutiny allowed and no accurate, honest assignation of error possible, all manner of erroneous yet authoritative data are driven home just as forcefully as correct ones.
The continuous backfilling that constitutes the bulk of scientology writing and lecturing is apparent in scientology training packs. The student is not instructed simply on what he should do and why. Instead, he reads bulletin after bulletin and listens to lecture after lecture of Hubbard talking about how people have misapplied or might misapply what he discovered. The materials are a patchwork of Hubbard writings and lectures cherry-picked from different periods of time. They make for a mix chock-full of contradictions. Without having one’s intellectual honesty compromised by agreeing from the outset that Hubbard is infallible and all of his words are literal Gospel (that which is required in scientology training – along with the requirement to attribute every success to Ron and every failure to pesky humans and their inherent fallibility), all of this would be as obvious as the nose on your face.
Since all scientology courses begin with a warning that if anyone states that anything Hubbard wrote is ‘historical’, ‘background’, or ‘no longer used’ he will be promptly convicted of the crime TREASON, how does one cope with the miasma of contradictions? Scientology instructors employ a ‘technology’ that has the student convince himself there are no contradictions. It is so effective that scientology students do not graduate a course until they attest with certitude that everything makes consistent, perfect sense. The firmness of that idea of certainty is verified by one component of a modern lie detector (the stress testing electropsychometer). Highlighting this culture of hypocrisy, the cognitive dissonance creating course rooms – which eliminate any questioning, thinking or doubts – are called ‘Academies’ taken from the ancient Greek sites where liberal, critical philosophical thinking was once nurtured.
The net result of all this is that scientology is destined to always incite debate and internecine strife – no matter how enlightened and wise its leadership may be. There can never be universal consensus on what constitutes ‘standard technology’ given the voice (noted above) scientology is written in and given its inalterable injunctions that that voice may not ever be questioned, interpreted, or clarified. In a strict organizational setting, the debate goes on inside each individual’s head (until settled by an instilled, arrogant brand of cognitive dissonance) while attempting to keep up, lock-step of course, with management’s latest pronunciamentos on what constitutes ‘standard.’ In an independent setting it is a self-righteous war of words in which nobody can establish a clearly reasoned high ground. To gain any traction in the debate requires one to progressively retreat further toward adopting Ron’s certain, swaggering and authoritative personality.
That is why bands of scientologists, whether in or out of the official organizations, will always rally around certain, swaggering, authoritative types of personalities – and promptly disperse when that catalyst is removed. Sadly, but just as certainly, about the closest thing scientologists are going to find to that original L. Ron Hubbard package is David Miscavige.
About the only common denominator all brands of scientology share as something resembling a standard in practice is this: does the guy stay on board and continue paying? If you have been led to believe that any viable brand of scientology is applying some more enlightened standard you have simply been led to believe yet another lie. Why do you think that the only allegedly ‘expanding’ independent scientology outfits feature the addition of 47 advanced levels of auditing? It is like Miscavige inventing the existence of OT Levels IX through XV and beyond, only seven times over. What you get is power of choice in picking the duration of your addiction.
Those who make a living by trying to convince folks otherwise are profiting by playing on misplaced hopes. It is a different harmonic of the same game that was played on people within.
There is a silver lining in all this. In addition to whatever any individual may feel he might have picked up of use along the way in scientology, there are a couple of assets that probably all scientologists can recognize they possess. First, they can realize that they were well meaning and trusting to begin with; scientology doesn’t take very well on people without those virtues. Second, they can recognize that they have had the opportunity to hone the latter virtue (trust) by surviving the most intense graduate school of psychological hard knocks.
Moving On Up a Little Higher 
Sincerely Marty I could not have said it any better myself. I am still to bitter I suppose to express it that plainly and eloquently although I have tried in the past. Thank you for putting this post out there. Plain as day. There can’t be a standard for something that has never existed in the first place.
I am proud to be a survivor not only of Scientology, but a survivor of being a Second Generation Scieftologist, a Sea Org Member and a Recovering RPFer. The hard knocks I got in all three arenas have left deep scars that are still healing and hope one day to be so faded as if they never were.
Thanks Marty. Certainly gave me food for thought.
As much fault as can easily be found with Nietzche, I have found one thing he noted to be a workable axiom: “That which does not kill me makes me stronger.” Viktor Frankl refines/explains the idea marvelously in Man’s Search For Meaning.
All of the ills listed in the blog post, whether fully accurate or not, could and apparently are being rectified by scientology practitioners outside of the CoS – with very good results, according to the reports of many. I think that gives credence to the actuality that there are valid principles underlying perhaps not all but much of the tech.
That is very true. I would say I am VERY strong now. Even in my weakest moments when I still grapple with my own sanity I know I am strong. And that pulls me through. That and my two beautiful children and my family, who tell me I am loved and that I am a good person and that I am worth it. I have finally started to tell myself that too and believe it. That has taken more than a decade but I know it can only get better from here.
I haven’t followed your blog closely but have enjoyed what I have read or had pointed out to me, especially since you’ve come all the way through the decompression process to realizing that Hubbard’s brainchild was less than an honest effort. This posting is by far the best summation of Scientology I’ve seen yet and I really like the way you phrased certain parts, especially the very accurate “You wind up with the curious phenomenon of apparently sincere people devoting their lives to vehemently defending their own entrapment.” This is just spot-on. Nice article.
Love it!
Wow – spot on essay here.
One thing that keeps me going as a continuing, practicing Scientologist – quite aware of the traps and the real nature of the “90%” dilemma that you describe so well – is that remaining “10%” – I mean – you have alluded to it before. A lot of us recognize it is there.
Hell, people accept some of the outright lies stated in the Keeping Scientology Working letter just because you find those few gems of wisdom there that you don’t really get anywhere else.
While the cynical might propose that he worked so hard in order to keep the money flowing and the lies covered, there still was – and this is what communicates to the mentioned “well-meaning scientologists” – a genuine, driving urge to understand mankind, the mind, and the common denominators of aberration.
That those “common denominators” became a hard-set, cookie cutter speedway to “OTIII fast” is undeniably tragic, and counts as a betrayal of trust.
The Advanced Orgs fit the definition of roach motels – and sorry for an ugly depiction, but it describes an ugly scene. “They check in but they don’t check out.” Or at least they pay double of what are already obscene rates for “clearing” help that they now think they can’t get anywhere else because they are in the grip of trademark secrecy – a sort of a mafioso-enforced devil’s bargain.
Hubbard made that!
But the fact remains that before – and sometimes after – the psychotic breaks of 1965 (repeated times over in a tragic pattern) – there are real gems of technical wisdom that can be found nowhere else.
That the task of that sort-out is monumental and daunting is not a hindrance to my own desire to understand and help my fellows. All while struggling with the horrendous contradictions that you describe so well in this post.
For this is a very old tradition. From the true spiritual alchemists who secretly forwarded the “Great Work” under penalty of death, through Freud, Breuer and Jung and the liabilities of taking on the monstrosities of people’s potential for evil in contrast to their angelic potentials for good. All with as many variations as the number of tarot cards – far more variations than the simplified five or so “Grades” of Scientology technology (plus a few special “rundowns”).
I don’t know whether it is actually possible to unravel this ball of string, yet it is an engaging enough task.
This blog and its recommended reading have helped greatly. May we all continue to learn and grow, and may the unique gems of wisdom hit upon in the great quest for the “one-shot clear” shine again, rediscovered, put to their proper use, and cleaned of the mud they became buried under.
Beautiful.
Catch 22.
They come to get themselves ‘sharp’, but ya gotta be sharp to safely get through, to get yourself sharp. Maybe, if you’re sharp, you can get yourself sharper, if you don’t get dulled along the way.
Mark
Wise and eloquently expressed!
Great post Marty. I’ve never seen it said better. It definitely reflects my feelings. I, too, struggle with getting to that silver lining, but I’m working on it!
A rarity.
I’m speechless.
Beautifully written with heart, experience and a warmth rarely found amongst “critics”
Love,
Windhorse
Bravo…Standing Ovation !
You stated it very clear and simple.
It will cool down many people and their circled discussions about who knows the appropriate reference.
Its sad but true modern psychology knows more about the functioning of the mind (not the brain) than dianetics.will ever teach.
Can we get an ‘Amen’ !
I just finished reading Jon Atak’s book. It is almost overwhelming …. the B.S. the lies, the intrigues, the threats, the greed and ultimately the lack of integrity. All of this done in the name ‘LRH & Scio’ is absolutely 101% right, true and correct. It really makes one want to puke.
All that being said, I had gains and wins from my auditing. Some have lasted some have not. BUT at least I had a glimpse of what can be or is possible, therefore I can re-create or not, as I desire. It is all OK with me.
With the right auditor, I do feel one can get relief and help, if they believe that the process will work and if they are willing to ‘let go and release’. But that is true about all of life, let go, release and things change. Oh and don’t bother going beyond Clear.
We all were sucked in, so to speak, we just wanted to see people and the world at peace and better, whatever better meant to us. I think we all still desire that. For certain, I can say studying Scio and listening to the ‘wall of B.S.’ probably is not the way to go, unless you want the tedious exercise of sorting the 90% of B.S. to find the 10% worthwhile.
This could probably be the ultimate truth about Scientology.
I consider Hubbard’s outpourings to consist mainly of wordplay.
E.g. his definition of the thetan. It is described as a static. In science ‘static’ is an adjective, but Hubbard changes it into a noun, which is meaningless.
So the definition of ‘a static’ explains exactly nothing at all.
I have still to meet a Scientologist who can explain the notion of ‘ a static’ to me, as being the definition of ‘the thetan’.
A clarification on my first sentence: the ‘this’ refers of course to the excellent post of Marty Rathbun and not to my idea of Scientology as a wordplay.
If Hubbard didn’t have “standard tech”, I foresee a possible future in which the best of intentions, results, and workability are brought together with the label of “Standard Tech” in a recognized brand. It may not exist yet, but I think it is being worked on by someone somewhere.
Ever the optimist, I guess. Better to light one candle than to curse the darkness.
Reminds me of a Sufi story.
Nasruddin told someone he could see in the dark. That person asked him, then why are you carrying that candle around with you? Nasrudin said “Oh, that’s for the benefit of others so they don’t trip and fall.”
Yup. Miscavige is “The Standard Scientologist”.
Awesome post!
I can see there is a lot of truth in these words. It is clear to me that the space between you and the subject of Scn is getting greater and greater (in other words your viewpoint is getting more and more exterior). That being said, I want to comment on a few things here:
1. “(Scientology) is mostly a running stream of consciousness record of assigning reasons why the promises in the book Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health were never realized and how they might yet be.” – Ron had a vision of what the State of Clear was and decided that this idealistic state must exist…therefore, somehow and in some way it can be reached. When his efforts to produce this “perfect” state didn’t satisfy his expectations, he looked for reasons why. Ron’s pointing out of outpoints had research value. You go down a calculated path (yes some trial and error) and you see where it leads. When it doesn’t lead where you want it to you look for the “real why” and then you recompute a new path, take that to it’s end, and the cycle repeats, ad infinitum, until you realize your vision…
Marildi: “All of the ills listed in the blog post, whether fully accurate or not, could and apparently are being rectified by scientology practitioners outside of the CoS – with very good results, according to the reports of many.”
“Reports by many”? The CoS has much better “reports” of “success stories” from their application of the tech. As we have discussed before, Marildi; There are no objective evidence of the workability of Scientology. And the anecdotal evidence is suspect, to say the least. Ref: “Invitation to critique my OT VIII success story” http://isene.me/2014/07/30/invitation-to-critique-my-ot-viii-success-story/
Marty: Spot on!
Sara, what’s wrong with this explanation from the Tech Dictionary:
6. the simplest thing there is is a static, but a static is not nothingness. These are not synonyms. We speak of it carelessly as a nothingness. That’s because we say nothingness in relationship to the space and objects of the material universe. Life has a quality. It has an ability. When we say nothingness we simply mean it has no quantity. There is no quantitative factor. (5411CM05)
” about the closest thing scientologists are going to find to that original L. Ron Hubbard package is David Miscavige.”
Sadly, I think DM knows this, and he tells people this who complain that “LRH would never do what you do”.
Better and better. Thanks.
When I first got out I was approached (regged) by a Free Zone guy who I had known back in the 60s. He was auditing and had Captains Bills stuff of the OT 47 or more OT Levels. Now, Captain Bill was maybe a bigger wack job than Hubbard. Captain Bill died in something like 1991. I will believe one of these fellows when they are 800 years old and can lift a space ship out of the swamps. In other words when they can demonstrate they are Yoda! Until then I will continue on my Merry Way.
It is nice to hear from you after all these years.
Marty it’s really beyond need to comment on your new viewpoint and how you see Scientology, Hubbard etc.
Except for one thing which has to be commented upon: I don’t think that, especially, you of all people could, at any point of time, turn back against Standard Tech and criticise it. That’s crossing the line because you harmed Standard Tech in the past, you harm it now and it looks like you cannot stop harming it.
There are two possible explanations for this: Either you didn’t get it in the first place Marty, and that’s why though you were up there on the org board, you cannot even perceive that HCOBs cannot just be left out and not applied. I am saying this because though I mentioned it many times on your blog that I, personally, have been declared for insisting on the application of specific HCOBs on translations, which were not being applied, you never once cared to comment on this. This is odd, to say the least, as you could have done a better job on understanding what HCOBs meant to be.
So it’s either basic misunderstoods on what standard tech really is or it’s another thing: my view is that Scientology (the version you helped mould for this world and the one that you assisted Miscavige for years to create, the enslaving type of Scientology that we get to see around today) is being prepared for and turned into the next world religion. So, my guess is that you have now another employer Marty. Maybe unbeknownst to you but you are working for those guys as you did while with Miscavige and your altered Scientology version. So, realise that you cannot touch something that is alive out here and is free no matter how much ink is wasted: the independent/freezone field. No matter how obscure the agenda you have been, actively or unbeknownst to you, part of, there is not going to be much of a result in completely destroying Scientology. Because we are going to whisper it to our sons and grandsons that the tech was free and to keep it so.
The weight of responsibility on your shoulders is of such magnitude that the only way to counter balance such a weight is to obviously make the whole thing look like a bad dream which ends this way. An unhappy ending. As someone is trying to withdraw from something he can’t withdraw from (though he must), he or she is mocking up delusional ideas and scenarios and exhibits to counter balance the weight and make his escape from it all finally.
You have a good wife Marty, she helped you in times when you were in dire straits and you helped her too realise she is a spiritual being through Scientology auditing. You guys have a child now. A thing that was prohibited for most of us in the Sea Org. That’s good enough for a 2nd dynamic. But as to your 3rd dynamic Marty you are making a mess out of it instead of (finally) either shutting up or owning up to the damages you have caused to Scientologists and making it up for them. It’s not just that Miscavige has been beating people up. We don’t want a wog society (and I mean it, a wog society) to intervene more into the affairs of Scientology to put their “justice” in on Scientology. We just wanted that some people realise that what was on policy and tech was a valid work and it was to be protected even by the last Scientologist for a reason: that no one else had a say on what goes and what goes not. Not because Hubbard is/was God as you are starting to preach to your parishioners now but because his tech was more workable than that of others in the 20th and 21st centuries.
I now can see how Scientology got to where it’s at with people like you and Miscavige so high on its hierarchy. There is still time for you to think of those TRs and that exteriorisation you experienced from that very first course you took in Scientology and cool down. Even in that way you are still working for Scientology to go through the thick heads of homo sap. It ain’t the best way but what the hell… There is others working on it too. The whole of the church and the whole of a planet is our Div 2s and Div 6s. We can for the first time educate a thetan into what this is all about really and nobody can stop this. Oops, the cat was let out of the bag long time ago, Marty.
And yet as I spelled out in a previous post, he promptly went about treating it as exactly that, quantity (big beings, small beings, etc ad nauseum).
2. “That is why bands of scientologists, whether in or out of the official organizations, will always rally around certain, swaggering, authoritative types of personalities – and promptly disperse when that catalyst is removed.”
– Scientologists are not the only people who do this, virtually EVERYONE does. Unfortunately, this is what attracts people. People want and/or need a GURU. So if a “Buddha” of sorts comes along who is perfectly sane, honest and communicates truthfully, virtually EVERYTHING that person claims will need to start with the following qualifier: “the research up to this point indicates A, however it is possible as research evolves that this could end up not being true or may be refined at a later date and the refined conclusion later on may be substantially different than what we are practicing now.”
People want answers, not maybes, and so if you only give your public “maybes” then they’re going to move onto a guru who gives them answers. People want to feel certain about something so that they don’t worry about it. So long as the words they’ve read were spoken as though they are facts, peoples’ stable datums stay intact and they feel confident. If not they feel uncertain. Many people fall for the same types of promises over and over and over again.
Unfortunately, I see people following those who present themselves as authority OR the authority on not being an authority, which still makes him the authority on something. I do not see many people following the “Buddha” I described earlier…so was Ron really so wrong in speaking like an authority? It caused people to follow him instead of following another, less-wise “guru.”
By the way Marty another great post. I am sure the rabid independents & Free Zone fellows are going nuts reading your blog. Some of these guys have been out for 30 plus years and they are still Bots to Hubbard. This is amazing to me as within one year of getting out I realized that we all had been Cultified (sic) to the max by Hubbard. It had little to do with Tiny Miscavige, as you said he was the perfect Minion to take over for Hubbard. I am hoping your blog will help them realize they need to look beyond Hubbard or Captain Bill.
Thanks and best wishes to you and your family.
Thanks Geir. I only had to read the success story to get the point. No critique needed. Amazing what learning to let go can do to one’s intuitive abilities.
Exactly. Learning to let go. 🙂
Thank you, Watchful.
And Marty, thank you too, I continue to appreciate your thoughts and offerings. Though i never quite made it to “clear”, the journey was enlightening and life changing for the better. I owe this to honest application of the tech. And that is my answer to why the tech always works for me when i apply it as Hubbard describes how to apply it. For me, THAT is Standard Tech.
Geir, you have stated, even quite recently, that you got tremendous wins from scientology – although you feel that the majority did not and in fact were negatively affected. The only explanation you’ve given for this discrepancy (that I know of) is that you were a “rebel” and did not “toe the party line.” Therefore, what I’ve stated above would, in simple terms – that is, in your terms – be the only thing needing correction, i.e. the requirement to toe the party line.
“It caused people to follow him instead of following another, less-wise “guru.”
So Ron was the wisest guru ?
That is good to know.
He also said that a thetan was IN “a very, very small amount of mass” and that beingness is on a part with space and a function of case.
Typo: should be “on a PAR”
The evidence of the truth in what you say lays all about us. People need only to look.
When the game is, “Everyone in this game is wrong except for one person”, it is not a game at all. It is a religion.
” Nobody is holy except God. There is only one holy one.”
This does not discount whatever gains I got from the auditing or from the knowledge I found workable. Nor does it discount whatever good religions have bought into society. All of our current laws are based on the ten commandments.
But this does explain, very well, the losses and set backs people are set up for at one time or another on this path.
The urge to make everyone wrong except for L. Ron Hubbard, is the glue that holds the fundamentalists together. This is the basic purpose. And while on that purpose they make Hubbard as wrong as wrong can be, by the trash piles of human life, hope and dreams that litter this highway.
Theo,
I think the problem is that YOU are still stuck in YOUR viewpoint of who Marty is. Or who you think he is supposed to be.
Did you miss the memo where he states he is not a Scientologist?
Yet you continue in your efforts to punish him and lecture to him as if he were one. Or ought to be one, or he is a bad one. And you aren’t the only one.
He isn’t one and he has said he isn’t one. He has a right not to be one. Or to think like one. Yet you continue to deny him this basic human right.
This ramming “MUST HAVE MUST BE” is as suppressive as running a CAN’T HAVE.
You are running a CAN’T HAVE on his current position.
One for one I find the fundamentalists least likely to be able to think with the Scientology. One for one.
Marty I maybe haven’t posted much in the last few years but have been reading your blog and following your journey “religiously”. My wife and I have read your books and loved them. I had many high points reading your blog especially when you realized the independents were as nuts as the Church Scientologist. Let me tell you my low point on your blog which I think we can all laugh at now. It was the “Ode to Ron” made me and my family lose our lunch. Its been almost 5 years now since we left the Church on your Blog and my family have all moved on from being “Scientologists”. Since Exilda and I were in for 40 plus years I think we got “decultified” pretty quick once we really starting looking. Love your family and follow you guys on Facebook. When you get to Denver area I am sure Billy would love to play with my Grand Children Skye almost a year old and Kieran 3 years old. Chrissy and Shane have done very well for themselves after that great adventure of leaving the Church.
good thread! You make a lot of good points.
“From before the publication of Dianetics, Ron Hubbard proved as immovable as a mountain on being criticized, corrected, or accepting even the most rational of input and advice.”
When I skim read a bunch of the letters he’d received and wrote back to some of his sci fi colleagues, what you say above seems true. His friends were deferential. Heinlein in particular, seemed careful not to upset Ron with too much criticism.
Very valuable dissection of the game he played. Thanks.
How can a thetan be anywhere when by definition it has no location?
“…no mass, no wave-length, no energy and no time or location in space except by consideration or postulate. The spirit is not a thing. It is the creator of things.” (FOT)
You did very well as far as you went, Marty.
That is by debunking or challenging the idea of standard tech.
That term “standard tech” turned my stomach shortly after I went through the material and evaluated it. That was about 15 yrs ago. I simply applied Hubbard’s own datum: Any datum is only as good as it has been evaluated.
I have been pounding this message for about the same time and it is starting to take root.
And I reiterate to say that the small percentage of technical gems, at least the basic idea, need to be gleaned from Hubbard’s words, and build a better bridge. Actually not a better bridge, but a real bridge. Because Hubbard’s bridge was not a bridge.
Like I said many times before, if you have done Hubbard’s false bridge and can’t learn from his failures, out right screw ups or disasters and successes, and build a real bridge, you flunked scientology.
All the basic ideas, the basic principles that are needed for a real bridge are there.
A few more ideas are scattered in the works of thinking people who left scn, over the years and decided to think for themselves.
The only thing that is permanent is change.
All you have to do is apply the right parts of scientology (the technical gems and words of wisdom) to scientology in the right way and you will build a real bridge.
Those gems and words of wisdom are the ones Geoffrey Filbert refers to as the less then 1% of what Hubbard said was true.
Hubbard’s words parpahrased:
“I blazed a trail and it is up to you to build the highway.”
are as true today as the day he said it.
They may be the most important words he said, because they set the course, the postulate to improve and continue into the future.
Get out there, get cracking, and build a real bridge (or highway)!
Dio
Who am I conversing with?
Thank you, Marty for so eloquently pointing out that ‘standard tech’ is a mirage. As LRH says on the Class VIII lectures “Scientology is all of a piece.” He goes on to explain that no single reference can be used to the exclusion of the others. If this invitation to and sanction of cognitive dissonance doesn’t show the quest to find truth within the confines of scientology as a wild goose chase then nothing will. Though the charisma of a commanding figure can temporarily breathe life into the promise of adventure via whatever is currently billed as standard tech, it is inherently unsustainable. Hence the reboot(s).
I don’t understand the question, unless you mean to make a point of my quoting LRH? If so, I thought that was the subject we were on – his definition of static/thetan.
Beautiful. Thanks.
I love this blog.
For a myriad of reasons. But one perhaps I’ve never mentioned is that I can monitor my OWN progress in equanimity and my levels of anger by my response to certain posters.
Some are indeed “bengali tea boys” (bengali = from Bangladesh. There is an old old Tibetan story of a wise guru heading from India to Tibet where he was asked to come and teach
He was gathering his belongings and his students. And also preparing his Bengali tea boy (similar to a valet) to accompany him.
His students begged and begged him NOT to take the Bengali tea boy because he was so nasty. So rude. So dismissive.
The Indian sage said — no, I must. I’ve heard that everyone in Tibet is so learned, so compassionate and so wise that IF I don’t bring the tea boy to constantly be a reminder to me that I’m not enlightened, I feel I will become arrogant. It is said that when he arrived in Tibet he said — oh, I could have left my Bengali tea boy in India — there are plenty in Tibet to remind me I’m not yet enlightened
I delight in the various Bengali tea boys/girls who pop up from time to time OR are almost always present debating or arguing or making wrong.
Love
Windhorse
Its clear to me that your now three feet behind the head of this organization, its founder and its current leader. There is no games condition. You can clearly see it and your calling it. Its a true public service.
If Hubbard actually said “the tech is free, keep it so” then why the hell did he demand people pay such ridiculous sums for it?? I don’t think Hubbard was even acquainted with the word “free” he was a man who had a price for everything, even “enlightenment” and “spiritual growth.”
Other than that there really is no point replying to your post your a textbook example of what Marty so ably described as a person viciously defending their own enslavement.
You have just made the point better than I ever could.
Marty wrote:
“[Scientology] is mostly a running stream of consciousness record of assigning reasons why the promises in the book Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health were never realized and how they might yet be.”
Ha!
Now that is an accurate description of Dianetics and Scientology!
He held out one carrot after another. And it worked!
And if there were individuals who wisened up, then they were declared PTS or SP and quarantined from the other paying scientologists. And if they wouldn’t shut up and go away, they were shuddered permanently into silence with Fair Game.
The quest for “Standard Tech” in Scientology is like a dog riding a merry-go-round, chasing his tail while on a hamster wheel.
A great parallel study to this is the endless debate about a lack of “pure communism” as being the reason for the failure of every communist country that has ever tried to apply Karl Marx’s writings to the real world.
The reason every communist gives for the failures of communism is because the communism applied by the Soviet Union or East Germany (or pick any other poverty-stricken communist country) was not true communism. The application wasn’t a standard marxist application! And all you have to do to explain away any colossal failure is to find the smallest little deviation – and BOOM! there you go! SQUIRREL COMMUNISTS!! That will always be the “why”.
These communist ideologues will argue endlessly and excuse, justify, and look away from the failures of communism by seeking out and finding “squirrel” communist applications and NEVER SEE that communism just does not work to produce the society that Marx said would be created if you applied his economic and political “technology”.
This is a very similar phenomenon.
And when you understand it in communism, you can clearly see it in Scientology.
Hubbard laid the instant attack trap for Scientologists in KSW:
Here you can find that the auditor did not write the date of the session on his worksheets. Or he didn’t have standard hand cream. BAM! SQUIRREL SESSION!!! You hold up the squirreling for everyone to see. Now everyone sees the squirreling and “retains their certainty” that standard Scientology works 100% of the time when correctly applied.
Few Scientologists ever catch on to this because every Scientologist is on this merry-go-round hamster wheel configuration that the dog is chasing his tail on.
It’s when you finally realize that there is no standard tech to be chasing that you finally exit this fantasy quest.
And man, it is such a relief!
Great post, Marty.
Alanzo
I don’t know about anyone else, but I sure got several good belly laughs out of this post… I don’t exactly know why, but reading things like, “about the closest thing scientologists are going to find to that original L. Ron Hubbard package is David Miscavige.” just got me laughing…maybe because is it so ironic? Or because it is so true.. in any case I feel a lot better because of it…I am still smiling and I have a new perspective….. Thanks again Marty. I would like to say you are courageous, but I think you are just being your observant self.
The discussion started with Sara’s comment about “his definition of the thetan. It is described as a static. In science ‘static’ is an adjective, but Hubbard changes it into a noun, which is meaningless. So the definition of ‘a static’ explains exactly nothing at all.”
In other words, she seemed to have a problem understanding the definition for certain reasons and I replied to that. I don’t get what you are now referring to. If you want to make a point about me in relation to this, can’t you just say what it is rather than give some vague implication?
http://scientolipedia.org/info/Theta-Mest_Theory
Comes from Ron himself he says:
1. a theory generated by myself in the fall of 1950 as an effort to explain (just a theory) the phenomena of an analyzer working in one direction and a reactive mind working in quite another, the reactive mind being interesting, and the analyzer being interested. (5410CM06) 2. the idea is that life is a no-substance thing, up against a physical universe which is a substance thing. Here is nothingness up against a somethingness interacting where the nothingness or the no-substance thing is actually giving orders to and handling the all substance thing, the physical universe. (UPC 3 5406CM–) 3. the idea that there was a universe and that there was thought-theta without wave-length, without mass, without time, without position in space: this was life. And that was impinged upon something else called the physical universe, which was a mechanical entity which did things in a peculiar way, and these two things together, theta-mest interacting, gave us life forms. (PXL, p. 140)
PS: I have taken a lot of wrath in all the years I have been pounding the ridiculousness of the idea of “standard bridge”, but I knew all along that it was only the devil’s dogs barking from the ditch.
For every person who comes along with a new idea to improve things for the future, there is a thousand to guard the past.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. Einstein.
Hubbards words ( his so called bridge) should only be preserved for research purposes.
From the list of virtues from the Oahspe, paraphrased and expanded.:
10. The tenth virtue is Observance, Evaluation and Absorption.
With Observance (to observe) Evaluation (to evaluate) and Absorption (to absorb) a person recognizes and accepteth from the ancients such things as wisdom, knowledge and understanding, which has taken thousands of years to learn, through experience, that which has proven to be good for society.
Without Observance, Evaluation and Absorption, a person beginneth back even with the ancients, and thus casteth aside his profit in the world.
Such lessons are recorded in all the various religious and holy books of all religions, philosophies, and spiritual teachings of all the past.
Impartially read them and evaluate all of them, and hold fast on to that which is good. Chuck the rest up to experience.
Do not seek for things to believe, but seek and study to KNOW the truth in all things. For a belief is not a truth.
A belief is that which a person reverts to in the absence of facts.
It is a confession of ignorance. It is a function of the intellectually inept, or unevolved.
Seek to KNOW something with certainty to gain confidence in your knowledge. Seek to find that which is good and true.
To determine that which is good or true, scrutinize and evaluate and test each and every datum and experience you have.
Learn to do objective and critical thinking.
Develop good reasoning abilities.
Be the voice of reason and logic. Reason is the science of logic.
Evaluate and test to determine whether the said datum, provides useful knowledge, wisdom or understanding, to help understand your life better, and whether it is good to make society better for all. Is it sustainable?
This is the new religion for the new millennium.
He who has only read one book, tends to be dangerous.
Impartially study all religions, spiritual teachings and philosophies.
Any datum only becomes meaningful, when it is compared to another datum of comparable magnitude, and increasingly meaningful when it is compared to more data of comparable magnitude.
The more points of view you evaluate, the greater your understanding will be.
Such practice, provides balance, prevents fanaticism and zealousness. Always maintain an open mind. See and understand all points of view. Function in such a manner to determine the most superior computation or most optimum solution in everything.
The Holy man says the Holy is Truth, and the Truth seeker, says the Truth is Holy. (Unknown)
Your critics are often, or can be your best teachers. Evaluate their criticism. If it is true, make the correction. If it is not true, let it go.
Not all criticisms are valid, some are.
Dio
So he wants to have it both ways. Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle, which governs things of mass, states that the uncertainty of location multiplied by the uncertainty of velocity is equal to Planck’s constant divided by two times pi. If a thetan is linked to mass, then a thetan must have location, even if it cannot be accurately measured.
Source: the Nobel winner who taught me quantum mechanics. Show me Hubbard’s Nobel for his “accomplishments”, Marildi, and maybe I’ll listen.
T.O. Marty is not a Scientologist but he continues to talk and write about Scientology and now in a very carping and deceitful (A=A=A) way.
I sometimes indulge in intervening and having a game at Tony Ortega’s paranoia blog where all the wogs (we talk about real wogs) are commenting on Scientology though I doubt they have ever done any earnest effort to understand what it is.
Now, here on Marty’s blog why wouldn’t I have such a right? Marty, started an Indie thing. It was Marty who was writing about how it was Miscavige who was at the root of the problem for Scientology. You know, a lot of such stuff.
So, I am not denying Marty any right. There is no ramming on my part. Every now and then I come here to remind some folks of how it used to be. When Marty comes along though and “he on top of all, now asks for his change back, too” (a greek expression for someone who, whereas he is in fault, not only doesn’t he admit his fault, but on top of it blames the others about it), well, that’s too much.
Marty has been publishing books about… Scientology. Marty has a blog about… (well) Scientology. Like Tony Ortega does. They get all those people interested, finding so much fault with anything in Scientology. I must admit that Tony Ortega’s blog is very open but as you enter in there you must be prepared for a scathing fight. Here of course it’s not like that. People are not wogs here. That’s for sure. So, we can discuss.
I see from your comment below, however, that you are also playing the “God tune”, too. Nice job. Do you guys finally propagandise for a god Hubbard or what, now? Well, understand that that too is in vain. Not only are we not fanatics here as you want to present many folks who adhere by standard tech, but we use the tech to get out of the traps that are set up for us and we use what we consider valuable out of it and what can be used given the circumstances. Unfortunately the worst example of application of that tech was given by Management as to how to apply Scientology savagely to people. We are not doing that in the Indie field. We don’t cannibalise on our people, we have a planet for our Div 6. That’s a lot of people, T.O. It’s just that Marty needs to hear the other side too if he is to go on with all this A=A=A about Scientology. And I think he doesn’t mind contrary views as this adds to the blog discussion. So, there is no victimising and no fundamentalism here. There is just discussion and it can be heated up or not depending on how harsh the subject of Scientology is treated.
“Now, get this as a technical fact, not a hopeful idea. Every time we have investigated the background of a critic of Scientology, we have found crimes for which that person or group could be imprisoned under existing law. We do not find critics of Scientology who do not have criminal pasts.”
―L. Ron Hubbard
Source/Notes:
Critics of Scientology (5 November 1967) – Scientology Bulletins
Read more at http://izquotes.com/author/l.-ron-hubbard/6
How many times Scientology has been altered? as many times as it has been read, and that happens because each individual who has read and studied that material have interpreted accordingly what is his /her reality: how they believed it meant, what they read into it.
I want to say one more thing, there is no crime in making mistakes.
Because everything man has ever learned was through making mistakes, disasters and the spilling of blood.
But there is a crime in not being willing to learn from them.
We learn more from making mistakes than successes.
The key to learning from mistakes and turning the mistake into a miracle is ( not bitching and complaining) but to have thr ight attitude and be thankful for the experience and asking the empty space in front of you, what can you learn from this? Where is the silver lining? How can I turn this lemon into lemonade?
Dio
At this point, I have not read any comments above, Marty, because this essay is a:
mag·num o·pus
ˈmagnəm ˈōpəs/
noun
noun: magnum opus; plural noun: magnum opuses; plural noun: magna opera
a large and important work of art, music, or literature, especially one regarded as the most important work of an artist or writer
Yes, this is the most relevant and poignant piece to date .
To add anything to this is dribble.
Thanks.
“If a thetan is linked to mass, then a thetan must have location, even if it cannot be accurately measured.”
Yes, but the location can be changed “by consideration or postulate.” The same idea is expressed by Tom Campbell, a physicist who studied consciousness for over 3 decades through his and many others’ out-of body experiences (exteriorization, in scientology terminology). Being a scientist, Campbell’s research was done using scientific protocol.
Campbell essentially came to the same conclusions LRH did as regards the location of a “unit of consciousness” (his word for thetan) – i.e. that it’s all a matter of postulate, which Campbell refers to as “intent.” You’ll notice in the short video below that he is grappling for a better word than “intent” – and I do believe the word he’s looking for is “postulate.”
No, he’s not a Nobel prize winner (at least not yet) but bringing that into it the discussion would be the logical fallacy of Appeal to Authority, wouldn’t it?
You speak sooth. How’s the raiding and pillaging going, out there on the steppes? 🙂 And how is the garden of gnomes and fairies? It’s been unseasonably cool here in Michigan, but we’ve had plenty of rain so the greenery is lush. 🙂
I look at it like this.
Learning:
That is what we do. We are always in a position to increase our awareness, that of course is dependent upon our willingness to learn.
It is the very nature of the soul to be knowledge. Not have it, but remember it, as an already existing state minus all the fear and mental noise.
By the very fact of turning one’s attention within, to look, will inevitably bring about realizations.
Why?
Because when we look within our selves, whether through self inquiry, self analysis or meditation, we come face to face with the true nature of things from time to time. And when we do, we blow charge, feel lighter, have realizations, things become clear and smiles more frequent.
The problem with Scientology, in my view, is that LRH tried to standardize that which can never be standard. Shure, there are some basic states of thought and mind and emotion that can be gone over in general terms and maybe we can say that there are some areas of commonality.
Hubbard attempted to convince, and did convince, his followers that his process is the most advance, scientific, groovy, latest version. And more diabolically the “only road to self awareness and truth.”
The truth of the matter is:
Any person, anytime, anywhere can go with in, look at the internal world of mind-emotion-spirit and have realizations.
That is why anyone who still believes in Ron pops a vein when people say Sciwntology doesn’t work. Of course it does. But not how it is sold.
It works because human beings have the capacity to differentiate and cognize the true nature of things.
IT IS WHO WE ARE
The problem with charismatic narsacistic cult leaders is that they convince their thought slaves followers that they, the charismatic leader, is the reason for their being able to look, see, rehabilitate and change.
The truth is:
We are transformational beings. With capacity to discover physical, mental and spiritual truths by turning our attention within and seeing with our spiritual discriminatory eyes.
When a person goes exterior on a Scientology process and realizes they are not a body, that person will always say that Scientology worked.
That capacity to go exterior is native to the person. L Ron Hubbard claimed these states as his own original discovery.
Instead of serving his students and praising them for who they are, he created a thought prison where all advances of the spirit are locked up in Ron’s need to be the Source.
So Scientologists are of course having wins. Because they are looking within themselves.
But there are traps, because a lot of the bridge is also the projection of a madman.
The challenge for exes is:
To differenciate between the realizations that we’re based on universal cosmic truths………..
And…..
Those assumed, word cleared, and demoed,imaginary certainties, masquarading as truth, but the imaginations of a misguided madman.
Mark
Do you actually continue to defend some kind of KSW, RAWN IS GAWD, status quo?
Opinions?!?!
Oops, Theo.
You gave yourself away here. I have always seriously suspected that you are some epic kind of troll. Now I am satisfied to conclude that is an accurate assessment.
I know you can’t admit it but, come on. You never practiced or studied scientology, and you don’t really care about Marty’s past, or his journey to grow and learn. You just like to mess with people. I guess perhaps blogs about scientology make an excellent milieu for such activity, for those who are so inclined.
I tip my hat to you sir/madam, because I was taught to recognize excellence wherever I find it, and you are very good at baiting others, no denying that. Oh! the buzzwords and lingo, and the buttons they can push — and you know exactly how to work them. Fascinating. Folks here are for the most part sincerely interested in serious discussion, not head games. You work that really well, too. Myself, I will return to my standard “troll handling/ignore tech”, and watch. Please, do carry on. Kiss kiss…
Refusing to listen because someone hasn’t won a “nobel prize”?
Really?
WTF?
It is unfortunate that you never accurately read, and certainly didn’t correctly quote Hubbard regarding “keeping the tech free.” This is a good example of the problem of verbal data.
Go back and read it for real. He wasn’t referring to money.
I never trained as high or went as far on the “Bridge” as above Class 5 or OT levels, but I can say I spotted many similar items. The whole route was evolving and changing constantly – like a slippery surface and lots of subjectivity to what exactly was standard. And having been at the mecca, even among all of that – subjective, subjective, subjective.
One thing that always seemed to stick with me was the fact I always felt I was missing something in any bulletin or book I had read, which would lead me to look as best as possible to the history up to that point, e.g. what technical “breakthrough” came before.
It got even more interesting with the advent of the “basics”.
On some level, I have to thank DM for enforcing the sequential study of the materials, because in doing so, I really started coming to realize that it really was a lot of trial and error, and a lot of “hooking” the reader into more, and really a lot of hooey, and one didn’t really get anywhere after all that in any case. Certainly it helps to have that experience when reading this blog, to me anyway. I am sure a lot of others probably felt or feel the same way. To that degree, he led me out to stay.
Probably the funniest thing I can think of now since decompressing was how I’d thought that I still had a “duty to Ron” or even felt I owed anything to him, and how much that absorbed many of my early thoughts since leaving. I know this was taken up in some earlier posts, but seems to me that if one could let go of that indoctrination more rapidly, that decompressing would go quite faster. Hell, “Madman/Messiah” and “Barefaced…” are quite a public service in that regard.
Agreed. Well reasoned and equally well written!
Refusing to listen to someone who failed his only course in physics pontificate on matters dealing with physics, yes.
Hubbard was a walking, talking, bloviating example of Appeal To Authority, thanks to people like you who turned him into an authority on everything. The fact that you don’t recognize this indicts you.
That’s for damn sure he must not have been referring to money, because he made sure people paid hard cash through the nose!
Here’s what I’m talking about, on David St. Lawrennes'(“Old Auditor”‘s) blog Possibly Helpful Advice. His latest post, “Where are all the auditors?” The section on Ron’s Orgs confirms what I have thought: The CoS and th eRon’s Orgs mirror the Roman Catholic setup vs. the Eastern Orthodox church’s, which are decentralized, while the R.C. is top-down hierarchical with a Pope. That incidentally is Miscavige’s background – Polish Roman Catholic. Dare I make a Polack joke? Keep in mind I am part Polish myself…. Oh, well, I’ll abstain. This is America after all, land of tolerance, nay insistence on, diversity. (Shut up, Valkov!)
Anyway, the Eastern Orthodox churches are autonomous, country by country. There is no central authority. It is true that the Eastern branch was involved in some early councils that set a basic Christian dogma, so there is a lot of similarity to the R.C. in that way. But they rejected the idea and practice of a Pope. Different Admin tech.
In general I find these scientology related blogs, by analogy, as though they were Roman Catholics discussing Christianity, focused on Roman Catholicism as if it were all of Christianity and no other Christian denominations existed. Kind of an A=A, Roman Catholicism = All of Christianity.
Same with how Scientology seems to be thought of here in the States, or here on the Western side of the world + Oz. CoS = Scientology, period. As though the rest of the world doesn’t exist. That’s the parochial chauvinism I see on the part of some American Scientologists and ex-Scientologists. It really is a bigger world than that, folks.
Other denominations of Scientology already exist. Many of them have existed since 1982 or even before. Some are more recent.
Anyway, for those who may be interested in seeing a wider world, here:
http://possiblyhelpfuladvice.com/?p=17440
Theo, there’s a reason that every time you show up at Tony’s blog, we rip you a new one. It’s because you’re a blowhard who demonstrates in no uncertain terms that you’re superior to all of us wogs. And we never-ins don’t know anything about Scientology because we’ve never been in? Wrong answer, Theo. There are a number of us, myself included, who’ve read Hubbard under the principle of “know your enemy”. We picked up enough to know what we need to know: this philosophy is unworkable and, in the wrong hands (meaning anyone human), dangerous.
Do you know what fault I find in Scientology? That its only prescription for me is death. That’s why I asked you over there if you believe literally in the Tone Scale. Your answer confirmed that you are a person who would want to see me dead. Sorry, Theo, I’m not giving in. I’m going to fight back. You and the obergruppenfuehrers at Milestone Two are never, ever going to even get the chance to put the Pink Triangle on me, not to mention take away the medications that have improved my life to the extent that I’m a different and better person altogether.
If you want to continue this, you know where to find me.
Technically, Eastern Orthodox churches aren’t autonomous, but autocephalous. They have denominational leaders, but the pronouncements of those leaders have no bearing on other churches. For example, the patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church can’t rule on matters of faith and doctrine for the Serbian Orthodox Church. It’s a subtle difference, but there is a hierarchy of sorts.
Just speaking as a person of Polish extraction who grew up Catholic.
He has a right to talk about his journeys and what he has taken from them. Scientology was part his journey yet some people think he needs to keep what he took away that, from view.
Not sure why you think he needs to hear more of the other side. He walked the other side. A lot longer and lot further than you and I a few others put together did.
But your urge to discount him, his views and his experience and where he has arrived, implies to me that you are the one with the A=A going on.
If he had posted in this in the comments section under the name “Stormin Noman” you would not have even read it.
Your own A = A rampant in your own comments:
“you of all people”
“Either you didn’t get it in the first place Marty”
“So it’s either basic misunderstoods”
“Maybe unbeknownst to you but you are working for those guys…”
“No matter how obscure the agenda you have been…”
“We don’t want a wog society (and I mean it, a wog society) to intervene more into the affairs of Scientology to put their “justice” in on Scientology.”
“Even in that way you are still working for Scientology to go through the thick heads of homo sap.”
“I must admit that Tony Ortega’s blog…” ( A = A ing Marty with Tony Ortega )
At the end of the day. it is all held in place by the code, “Do not tell”.
All the while, with “Have you been told not to tell?” on the sec check.
Held in place by the black propaganda campaign by the OSA plants, that Marty is on the payroll of Martians or Government officials or big pharma. All held in place by senior policy, “The customer is always wrong.” All held in place by fixed ideas of what Marty is supposed to walk and talk like since he swam cross the river and reached the other side.
You write, ” Not only are we not fanatics here as you want to present many folks who adhere by standard tech, but we use the tech to get out of the traps that are set up for us and we use what we consider valuable out of it and what can be used given the circumstances. ”
Nothing can be further from the truth. I do not present “many folks” who adhere to standard tech as fanatics. Please do not hang that on me. It is a false report.
Fanatics are the people who use “standard tech” to harm attack and suppress others, under the name of “love for L. Ron Hubbard”. To discount the value of others. To rip off the others. To fair game the others. That is NOT “using standard tech to get of the traps”. That is using standard tech to harm attack and suppress under the umbrella of Scientology. And one for one, the fanatics have a long history of treason behind them.
If you want to find out for yourself how walled off you are by your own fixed ideas, try doing a clay demo of what Marty posted above.
You don’t even permit yourself to listen and duplicate.
You attack, and attack, and attack. Who are YOU A=A ing him with?
Answering Theo.
Do you have anything to say about the rest of my post? The actual substance of my reply to your post?
He never said the tech was free.
Really, what did he mean by that quote (whether literally accurate or not, it is damn close)?
He said the work was free, let’s keep it so. It was a private memo to Mary Sue that accidentally got published as a policy letter.
Anyway, I guessed at that last part. It was the only way I could make sense of the statement.
I think it was actually “the work” is free, but considering his work was the tech and Scientology I think it’s hair splitting.
Here is the quote in the beginning pages of Tech Vols
I will not always be here on guard.
The stars twinkle in the Milky Way
And the wind sighs for songs
Across the empty fields of a planet
A Galaxy away.
You won’t always be here.
But before you go,
Whisper this to your sons
And their sons —
“The work was free.
Keep it so.”
Great post…..a shining silver bullet into the heart of that confining creepy concept known as Standard Tech. Good riddance and here’s to moving on.
That quote is in the booklet “Scientology Clear Procedure” (1957) as the Introduction:
—————————–
INTRODUCTION
I have been at work for seven years to produce a series of techniques which any well trained auditor can use to clear people. We now have them.
I am truly sorry that this took seven years. Actually, it took more than twenty-five.
Under other “systems of research” it could not have been done. It was financed at first by my writings and expeditions. Some 15,000,000 words of fact and fiction articles ranging from political articles to western were consumed in a large part by this research—but it was free to act if not free from sweat.
No bullying dictator wanted it for his mass slaveries as happened to poor misguided Pavlov. No big corporation wanted it for a better Madison Avenue approach to advertising— another kind of slavery.
No big Research Foundation like Ford was there to interject their “America First” philosophy. These had not paid for it; therefore they didn’t own it. The work stayed free. Thus it prospered. It did not wither in support of some aberrated “cause”. It bloomed.
But the violence of protecting this work while continuing it took a toll nevertheless. Special interests believed it must be evil if they did not own it. Between 1950 and 1956, 2,000,000 traceable dollars were spent to halt this work. Newspaper articles, radio ads (as in Seattle from the University of Washington) bribed “patrons”, financed “patients” all cost money. You hear the repercussions of this campaign even today.
Money could not stop this work by then. It was too late. If anything had been wrong with our organizations, my character, our intentions or abilities the whole advance would have crumbled. But we had no Achilles heels. We carried on. All that has survived of this attack by the two APAs, the AMA and several universities is a clutter of rumors concerning your sanity and mine—and rumors no longer financed will some day die.
And so the work has emerged free of taint and misguided slants. It is itself. It does what it says it does. It contains no adroit curves to make one open to better believing some “ism”. That makes it singular today in a world gone mad with nationalism. Buddhism, when it came to the millions, was no longer free of slant and prejudice. Taoism itself became a national jingoism far from any work of Lao-Tze. Even Christianity had its “pitch”. And if these great works became curved, with all the personal force of their creators, how is it that our little triumph here can still be found in a clear state?
Well, no diamonds and palaces have been accepted from rajahs, no gratuitous printing of results has been the gift of warlords, no testament had to be written 300 years after the fact.
For this we can thank the gentleman from Guttenberg and the invention of magnetic tape.
Therefore, although we have no such stature as the Great Philosophies, I charge you with this—look to source writings, not to interpretations. Look to the original work, not offshoots.
If I have fought for a quarter of a century, most of it alone, to keep this work from serving to uphold the enslavers of Man, to keep it free from some destructive “pitch” or slant, then you certainly can carry that motif a little further. I’ll not always be here on guard. The stars twinkle in the Milky Way and the wind sighs for songs across the empty fields of a planet a Galaxy away.
You won’t always be here.
But before you go, whisper this to your sons and their sons—”The work was free. Keep it so.”
L. RON HUBBARD
—————————————–
But before you go, whisper this to your sons and their sons—”The work was free. Keep it so.”
L. RON HUBBARD
Sorry, the last few lines were repeated in error.
Hello you d pirate ! truth can only be recognised by those who know it 🙂 killing is good, real good, last night some blood suckers invaded my territory and pronto got punished and that punishment was death! [mosquitoes] hehehe. Riding is good [Grand Marquis] smooth as the hair on my best hoses back! But I miss the stars, Elliott my dear I real miss the steppes,[ only those who love so deeply and completely could understand such.![ and you do] We had 2 weeks of unusual heat burned everything now it is cloudy and humid.. we drink the air and it still summer but feels very much like fall.
The gang in the garden just doing fine and garden is the Universe! 🙂
I think it was Hubbard’s purpose to build a bridge. Don’t recall Marty saying this was his purpose.
Hubbard said, “One day you will be free of me and Scientology.”
(paraphrasing)
Maybe Marty was exactly what he meant. I still do not understand why it is, that someone who lives up to that promise, they are fair gamed by everyone who has not.
What did Hubbard mean then when he said, “One day you will be free of Scientology?” Do you mean to suggest he was lying?
I was speaking as a Russian who grew up stateless in other countries. My approximation was enough to get my point across I hope, about a pretty basic difference between the two denominations, and the analogy between CoS and Ron’s orgs. That’s really all I was interested in doing. I suspect the R.O. groups are even more autonomous and less autocephalous than Orthodox churches in any particular country. But I don’t know. Didn’t go to church, or to R.O.s.
🙂
slam dunk, Marty.
Hubbard used “appeal to authority” in KSW
when in the beginning, Dianetics, he did not,
but he did appeal to emotions and logic (sort of, he convinced us). LOL
I’m looking forward to your future posts.
I am glad you are out of the scientology allegory of the cave, what a journey, thats for sure.
I wish you and Monigue and da kid the best.
As far as I’m concerned, I’ll quote Hubbard from his 1974 version of Dianetics:
“The past acts of an individual who has been cleared should be stricken from his record even as his illness have been , for with the cause removed there can be no retribution unless society itself is so aberrated that it desires to operate on sadistic principles”
Click to access EN_BO_Dianetics_The_Modern_Science_of_Mental_Health_DMSMH.pdf
page 302.
Funny, how Hubbard used that in the opposite fashion ie: fair game, PTS/SP tech.
Valkov…I want you to feel sorry for me, just think how low I have slide, Attila the Hun is killing mosquitos? ugggggh!
And yet somehow, the Clearing Course is still the Clearing Course.
marildi – please step back and look at what you wrote and Marty’s response. You wrote “my” quoting LRH…… He then asked “Who am I conversing with?” to get you to see it was you You put the quote up. It is YOU who are conversing. You obviously had a location or you could not have even entered the question on a keyboard. All I ask is that you consider how you could enter a response on a keyboard without being located in space where the keyboard was. What LRH wrote is valid only within the paradigm he wrote it. If you were not located anywhere then how the hell did you respond? I am not looking toward a long discussion. This is just my comment for you to consider. Many of us who read this blog have agreed to the same things. Sometimes what we agreed to is found to not be fully true.
Yes, it is. And to think people still consider thirty years after the experiencing of it that all of it was implanted by external forces. That’s some serious Stickum, man.
Consciousness is irrelevant to me. I prefer my physicists to keep the “meta” off of the front of the word.
I seriously doubt that was what Marty meant. He’s never THAT abstruse. 🙂
I’m not quibbling with your analogy, which is adequate. Ron’s Orgs are more autonomous than autocephalous, since the autocephalous Eastern Orthodox churches at least share a doctrine. Captain Bill tossed away everything from NOTs and after and created his own Bridge on top of the old OT levels. That’s as significant a doctrinal difference as the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches have.
Espiando, if consciousness is irrelevant, I don’t know why you started a discussion with me about the location of a thetan.
Well, we certainly know that his work wasn’t tainted by anything like “research” or “the scientific method”.
Excellent observation, Elizabeth.
Thanks, I have never seen this. Interesting against the backdrop of what has happened since then.
He writes: “And so the work has emerged free of taint and misguided slants.”
Well, David Miscavige certainly made a liar out him with GAOT. Further making a liar out of him with:
“No bullying dictator wanted it for his mass slaveries as happened to poor misguided Pavlov. No big corporation wanted it for a better Madison Avenue approach to advertising— another kind of slavery.
It did not wither in support of some aberrated “cause”.
Well, no diamonds and palaces have been accepted from rajahs, no gratuitous printing of results has been the gift of warlords, …..”
Maybe it was true in 1957. I wasn’t around then. I think back then there just field groups or missions right? The Founding D.C. Org was established in 1955.
It certainly is not true today. And I don’t think it was even true in the 70’s, twenty years later. Doubt it was even true when he thought it was true, that, ” the work has emerged free of taint and misguided slants.” Considering all of the tech revisions and different bridges that were issued afterwards.
Of course, even though what I am saying is true, I am not supposed to be saying it per K.S.W..
And I think this is the kind of thing I thought of, when Marty asked, “Are Scientologists trained to lie?”
Marty,
I love this post, very funny.
I’m going to bed laughing my ass off!
I’m still confused, if Hubbard believed all that hot air he spewed, then why did he want so much cold hard cash for even a taste of “the work.”? Why sully such high faluting ideas and knowledge with the hard sell tactics of Big League Closing techniques – which Hubbard endorsed wholeheartedly.
I’m sure if Les Dane hadn’t been well known as the published author of the book Hubbard would have claimed it as part of his genius tech, like he so often did with the work of other lesser known beings.
I am sorry! I bet some of them bite you before you get them, too. Then the bites itch. It’s tragic!
Well I guess you’re conscious enough to read and use your keyboard to comment. I am, but just barely. 🙂
Great comment, Brian.
Amen brother…
marildi – I see it that it is either that simple or his question may have been is he communicating with the real you, or just the person putting up an LRH quote in place of the ability to think about a new original thought. Either way, tis a good direction for contemplation. My opinion, for what it is worth, is that the concepts of “standard tech” require blinders and agreement with the paradigm written about to be “valid.” And, even then it was always changing. If Ron Hubbard were alive today would we have not seen several new or revised bulletins of what made up “standard tech.” Some things are still valid but the overall idea requires the acceptance, agreement and observance of the paradigm given. This paradigm does not appear to have the answers or there would be no need to revise or create new HCOB’s while LRH were alive.
If the basic being isn’t located in space then why are we here on this blog. Maybe it is more true that we are not required to be located in space. Who is to say that consciousness isn’t allowed to be located in space. It is a nice concept to chatter about but the fact is I have yet to meet any person, OT or not, who can simply get off the mud ball spinning in space and create their own game at will. 🙂
“The work” wasn’t always expensive. In the early 1970s I bought 25 hours of auditing from a Class VIII field auditor for $900. It was much cheaper to take a course and co-audit, which was actually encouraged, but I wanted the auditing quick, and the course etc would take longer.
About scientology today vs. scientology in say, 1965 or 1970. It is undeniable to me that the people I met back then were not doing the same thing, not practicing the same methods and getting the same results, that today’s CoS scientologists are doing. I think it’s not much of a stretch to say either one or the other is not or was not practicing what I understood then to be “scientology”. Having no contact with orgs for 20 years or so, I had assumed they were still practicing the same way. Then I started reading these blogs and sites and found out there was little or no resemblance between scientology 1970 and scientology 2010. So in my mind, one of them is not scientology at all anymore, guess which one? The first 2 guesses don’t count The word ‘scientology’ to me connotes what I experienced in the 1970s, not what I would experience today, in terms of the product and service I would receive. So I do understand why people complain about Miscavige, or point to him as a cause of the decline. After all, it went downhill fast on his watch, and he bulled his way into the top position as I understand it. It was a rather shocking discovery to me, what the CoS had come to over its 30-40 years of existence, since 1982. It is still a mystery of LRH’s psyche, why he liked the guy at all. He was at best, one of LRH’s pitbulls who went rogue. “Young Turk” is too good for him. I can only assume that LRH was losing it after 1978, when I personally think he had a stroke or some such medical event that changed him.
As far as LRH making himself right while making about everybody else wrong, for me it is real as evidenced by the phrases like”We are the only ones that can do something to save mankind”- in other words, humans are in bad shape and there is only me as Source to save them. Or, ‘the Sea Org is formed by the finest beings, many are called few are chosen”- implying others are not worthy unless…. and so on.
Bit also bass the component mentioned on the Sociopath Next Door- when you see excessive flattery this may come from the sociopath and you can find it on “the auditor is the more valuable being”, ‘Scientologists are above humanoids” – flatter the followers while invalidating the rest.
In regards to those who make a living by trying to convince others, are profiting by playing on misplaced hopes. For me this has been a hard decision to make but I have come to realize that ‘standardly’ auditing others just perpetuates the lies behind the subject and just presents a feeling of personal dishonesty mostly because it takes away from the other person the right to look and find for himself what he wants and how to go about it.
I could say more, but I will end by acknowledging again one of the many values of your postings: it does make one look, think and then choose.
midget drops dead… now what?
you right on that, after funeral all relatives came by and conducted sneaky attack in the dark while I was a sleep, let me tell you, I am not a good loser.. Attila will have revenge!
Maurice, thanks my friend, what can I say auditing works! When all the guessing, thinking is erased than knowing is just there: I think Vinaire uses a good word , when” filters” are removed… hehehe 🙂 🙂 🙂 lova ya!
“Same with how Scientology seems to be thought of here in the States, or here on the Western side of the world + Oz. CoS = Scientology, period. ”
……………………..
Val.. The world that is aware of Scientology has enough information readily available to come to the conclusion that Scientology is NOT a religion.
IT IS A DANGEROUS CULT!
Paragraph 1 is mostly correct. The rest is bullshit. And it’s long.
I will say that neither me nor my trained friends ever considered Ron infallible. Or that Ron was God, for that matter.
If you read what I write on my blog you will see that this is very far from all that needs correcting. It is also very far from what needs to be corrected according to Marty here in this very blog post.
Holy Shaving Cream Batgirl, “Abstruse”??!! Don’t you know that word is difficult to understand?
And you know where to find me too Theo. Right beside Espiando.
I will always have his back.
I am part of the ” Evil Psych ” community and taking medication for a chemical imbalance. Sp, Wog..degraded being ( db)
I never practiced or studied scientology? lol, your assessment is not accurate at all!
Oh, oh… the Espiandoooo! Oh yes, now I remember. The Ortega wogship appearing here to comment on Scientology. lol… that’s now… should I laugh or should I cry? Let’s see what he has to say!
Dio : “I want to say one more thing, there is no crime in making mistakes.”
Thank you for that Dio!
According to Hubbard, People that make mistakes are “P.T.S.”. And that is a real stigma that could lead to a lot of expense and even severe punishment.
Maybe that is why people can not own the mistakes they have made believing David Miscavige, or Hubbard. It is taboo to make a mistake so naturally they would want to disown it. The mistakes Hubbard made are suppressed by all except Miscavige, who has profited continuously by convincing people he is responsible for correcting Hubbard’s mistakes.
Which brings me around to something else, why is it such taboo to be a trouble source or a potential trouble source? Hubbard was a potential trouble source to a lot of people. An actual trouble source to a lot of people. You don’t think David Miscavige made himself a potential trouble source to the I.R.S.? That man has been a trouble source to the entire Scientology community, unashamedly.
Yet everyone else tip toes, eye rolls, never stirs the pot and says. “Who Me, never.”
Why do you think nobody every slapped him down? They didn’t want to be a “source of trouble”.
Look at the heat Marty took out here just by speaking up and speaking the truth! It was as if he had a search warrant and was walking into a shooting gallery.
Every time Marty pulled some evidence out from under the mattress, David hid under his desk or behind someone’s X wife and speed dialed Monique Yingling or whatever her name is.
You are right. There is no crime in making mistakes. And there is no crime in making trouble. The Rolling Stones make trouble every time they hold a concert. Malcolm X made trouble. Martin Luther King made trouble. Abe Lincoln made plenty of trouble. The Sea Org makes plenty of trouble. They deny all of their mistakes. Sending all of those people to do OT8 and then calling them and telling them they have to go back onto OT seven? The Mission Massacre. The flaps at the Flag Land Base and all of the law suits.
Lying on national television and perjuring themselves in court.
It is the only place I know of where you can be crucified for even being ” a potential” trouble source!
This keeps every one in tow. The biggest taboo in the Church is “causing trouble”. That right is only granted to the leader, the Sea Org, OSA and CCHR. In fact, it is their job to cause trouble.
Freedom is a two edged sword that swings both ways.
If you are given a sword that only cuts one way, and forbidden to lift your hand up, you really have not been armed. You have actually been disarmed.
Oh yes. Espiando I remember you had some medical problem and you were taking medicine. And then all those things to prove me wrong. And now I want you… dead. Ok, Espiando. Same story. Nothing changes. I don’t remember why I want you dead but ok…. if you say so.
Apart from this Espiando has just “studied” Scientology under the principle of “know your enemy”. Great viewpoint. Congratulations Espiando. When you will start to STOP accusing others for your condition you will see a lot of betterment in your life. Don’t worry. No need to read anything more, boy. It’s called Ethics and you can do it just by yourself.
Bravo Tom! Bravo!
I don’t do Passive – Aggression very well. Nope..Not at all.
Marildi, thanks for being standard. Thanks for posting the whole quote here. Actually, things are that simple but “no, we want to put in our slant and pitch”, “we want to alter everything and interpret it the way we want”. That’s this world Marildi and more and more become that cynical and blind. It doesn’t matter. Let’s keep whispering it to our sons and grandsons. Thank you for being around.
Dear Marildi,
I notice you are able to find LRH writings quickly. I would like to be able to do that also, as you do. I am wondering if you might share with me how you do that. If so, I would certainly welcome an email from you at my address of: wolfie2@hush.com. I would certainly use them for good purposes having spent over 40 years of my life already attempting that.
And thanks for posting the Scientology Clear Procedure booklet introduction. It’s been a long time since I have read it.
I went down a completely different path and came up with pretty much the same conclusions 🙂 Happy days as they like to say over here.
“We don’t want a wog society (and I mean it, a wog society) to intervene more into the affairs of Scientology to put their ‘justice’ in on Scientology.”
Still afraid of the wogs eh? 🙂
I get the impression that there is a common belief amongst scientologists that they are indeed working to literally save the universe. We tend to be self-sacrificing as a species, and this strikes me as both noble and exploitable — to great potential damage.
Where’s the fire?
Marty, your post is awesome! The comments are interesting and exciting to read. Thank you very much.
Very simple at the end when on looks back:
Life is basicly a static (nothingness) and everything is just your consideration of it.
So first you learn that you’re nothing and it’s all your fault (consideration) but then you’re a thetan which is a static basicly or perhaps not and you have a bank that’s producing all your considerations of the past, but you just can change your consideration and be Ot (SO) or you need to get rid of your considerations… or and or…, and it never stops…and you’ll never get it but as soon you do OT XV everything will make sense….
But in Fact life is not a nothingness it is everything and LIFE is HUGE and a lot of things.
The purpose of Scientology is to get rid of everything attached to you as a personality and what will be left at the end ? NOTHING.;..no identity no considerations just nothing. No thank you !
Fantastic blog post and replies. This is real communication. People expressing themselves freely without fear, maybe we should have a new defintion, the ability to communicate freely with anyone on any subject without any fear of anything. Spare a thought for those poor bastards still caught in the trap.
Today, no long-winded response, adding wisdom to your blog.
I am simply in awe.
Same for me ! And many thanks for your post, Marty. So true.
Thanks for the full version of “the work was free”. It adds the context needed to appreciate the point he wanted to make. The work was free of anyone having a lien on it or having influenced it to conform to their interests. Fair enough. He urges others to keep it free from such going forward. That position would certainly underlie a policy such as KSW. I can understand his position of also protecting the copyrights and trademarks and attacking “squirrels” so anyone saying they are practicing “x” is not in facts doing anything else. LRH was proud as a peacock and took enormous pride in his work. I am sure he also wanted to control the economics of it. The downside to all this was a subject that imprisoned itself and by extension its adherents became its fellow inmates and jailers. When an inmate escaped with a part of “X” he was hunted down and destroyed. Pride and ambition blinded the movement. LRH thanked Guttenberg for the ability to quickly spread his ideas. We can thank the internet for the ability to hold those ideas up to the light of examination. The result of that is a lessening of their power to control and their founder to be idolized. No one should have any objection to either.
For whatever reason, it is still funny to me that people viewed him as a guru, or religious leader, or God.
He really did tap into the psychometric, and was able to put a finger on the supernatural. That is where I gave him credit. But I was always aware that he did not invent the emeter. But he did figure out some amazing things that were important to me personally. Anyway, 70% of the auditing for me was the bomb. That was good enough for me.
I never bought into the justice ride. I wasn’t about to get policed in the Church of Scientology. And I didn’t get involved to be a cop.
I don’t think there is any way you can involve people in “self improvement”, and then send them out the front door damaged and heartbroken. And have a “good reason” for that. I just couldn’t think with that. That is treason and betrayal.
I don’t think domestic terrorism justifies the means.
When you state up front that this is a game where everybody wins, and you can not deliver, you either need to change your promise, your mission statement, or admit you over shot.
You can not state it, then when it doesn’t happen, talk about how the customer and staff fucked you up. And I think, this is part of what Marty is saying and it is true. Hubbard did that.
And trust me, I do not doubt that he had a lot of treason on his own hands.
But so did the guy who put up MacDonald’s Hamburger stands. The guy who put up Walmart. The guy who put up Microsoft. The guy who put up Amazon.com. The guy who put up Christianmingles.com They don’t have dead bodies and torture victims strewn behind them. They do not have their own police force and prison camps. They do not put their executives in trailors out in the desert , they don’t lie in courts, attack people that gave them a bad review or ask for a refund.
It seems there is a group that is willing to run over dead bodies without concern. As long as it isn’t THEIRS. And that is what David has left. Who wants to be in a group like that anyway?
If I could give back all of my wins, in exchange for making everyone happy that ever walked through the front doors of the Church, I would gladly do that.
Beyond those doors, we all can still treat one another in a way that is helpful. With respect. With courtesy. With care.
I still have not read one thing on this blog, posted by Marty that was a lie.
He may hit upon some belief systems. Some of it may be an inconvenient truth. If I ridge, I have to ask myself, was anything he said untrue?
I see the attacks. They never address the issues and the statements. It is always off base and not even about the facts laid on the table.
I think there is a reverse scale on ser facs. Making self wrong and others right. And I think this may be a bigger issue than making self right and others wrong.
Cat Daddy,
Thank you for your comment. Nowhere did I say that Ron was the wisest guru, however from his viewpoint he likely believed he was and therefore from his viewpoint there would be nothing wrong with employing techniques which caused people to follow him instead of other, less wise (from his viewpoint) gurus.
My personal opinion is that he was pretty high on the list of “gurus” from the 1950s through the 1970s…regardless of any personal outpoints he had, Engrams/Secondaries, Upsets (ARCXs), O/Ws, Occluded Memory, Communication, Problems, Ser Facs, Clusters and BTs are all valid sources of charge and freeing oneself of those things gives relief and raises awareness…I can think of no guru from the 50s through the 70s whose work was more valuable than creating a system of alleviating those factors from a person
And then, there are plenty of people out here auditing that do not have any history of upset clients. Why does the Church? You see the attacks on Marty as a “Squirrel”, and these attacks originate from people with a long history of fucked up unhappy clients. Not Marty. He doesn’t have any such history. And you know, I just like to dig at these outpoints and bring up a rational explanation. This guy has zero history of out tech or blowing anyone off the bridge or an unhappy client. He is the “Scientology Dream”. And he gets more heat than anyone I know of. And there is this sense of rampant injustice just like this that flows through the Scientology community, that is the basic virus in this. And it sure as hell isn’t Marty. The man with happy clients. But when people come in with hope and leave in despair, that is injustice. You can’t just blow them off as causalities for “the greater good”. That is going backwards. And if don’t own this as part of an inheritance, and face up to it, we will not move forward as a better person.
Marty makes the following points in his first paragraph:
(1) Continual revisions and repackaging is built into the nature of Scientology.
(2) There is no such thing as Standard Technology.
(3) Standard Technology is just a subjective consideration.
I would say that there is a standard framework of a Grade Chart that Scientologists follow. This framework segregates processes by Grades. It assigns sequence to those grades.
Another standard aspect that was communicated to me at the Cambridge mission, where I started in 1969, was that I must keep in my TR0 during the auditing session. This was a great help. For me, it was like being mindful (seeing things as they are). This produced great results in my initial auditing on Dianetics.
Later I observed the critical and beneficial use of mindfulness in Idenics. So, this mindfulness became the fundamental basis of KHTK, Unfortunately, I did not see this aspect emphasized by LRH. I was lucky to have been told at the mission right in the beginning to use TR0 in auditing sessions (or, at least, I understood it that way). I did that throughout my auditing with great benefit.
I found little use for the e-meter in my auditing when I was using mindfulness. Auditor, who was going by the e-meter made enough errors in acting by the reads that I relied more on mindfulness. If there was a flash response to a question in my mind I followed it up, otherwise, I told the auditor that nothing came up. This led to a lot of grinding, after some initial fantastic gains on Dianetics. I must have been complete on Dianetics long before the C/S realized. So, I wasn’t very impressed with the C/Sing and the use of e-meter.
So, yes, even when there is a standard framework of Grade Chart, the nitty-gritty of auditing is very much in disarray in Scientology. In general, the fundamentals of “looking” or mindfulness are not in place. So all kind of revisions keep on getting introduced.
.
TIR [ essentially Dioanetics] has had a fair bit of academic study. See below for example.
http://tir.name/research_pub/research/valentine.html
“In other words, at both the posttest and the three month follow-up, the experimental condition showed a statistically significant decrease in symptoms of posttraumatic stress disorder (and its related subscales) and of depression and anxiety, while those in the control condition remained approximately the same.”
Yeah, hubbard never lied about anything. I’m sure it’s never having been a Noble winner.
TIR [ squirrel dianetics :)] has had some academic study and showed promise:-
http://tir.name/research_pub/research/valentine.html
“In other words, at both the posttest and the three month follow-up, the experimental condition showed a statistically significant decrease in symptoms of posttraumatic stress disorder (and its related subscales) and of depression and anxiety, while those in the control condition remained approximately the same. “
The concept of Static in Scientology is derived from the SOMETHING – NOTHING dichotomy. Beginning starts with the manifestation of something. A “something” can be the flimsiest of thought or the heaviest of heavenly body. It can be any manifestation whatsoever. NOTHING is “absence of manifestation.” Static introduces some speculation on what NOTHING is.
However, I prefer the dichotomy of AWARENESS – NO AWARENESS because it is more basic. Awareness is needed before one can know that something is there. In my view beginning starts with the manifestation of awareness. Awareness could be the awareness of beingness as Static, or the awareness of the whole universe. NO AWARENESS is “absence of awareness”. It would provide boundary to the universe we are aware of.
The whole idea of “absence of awareness” is to provide a reference point from which to measure awareness.
.
T.O.
Yes, indeed, Hubbard’s purpose was to build a bridge. I do not deny or ignore that.
( I digress and qualify for a moment: The trouble with discussing Hubbard and scientology is that the subject is so huge, of such large magnitude, that there is no one who knows it all.
It is also incredibly complex.
It also often has several sides to it.
And there are almost always contradictions written elsewhere.
And it also more than one dimensional, there is more than one level.
It is so huge and complex and contradictory, that it is practically impossible to discuss it or even any part of it, in entirety or discuss it accurately, whithout leaving some part out.
Because if you do address one part of it, there is almost always some part left out, that someone can attack. And there you have the cause of these endless arguments and discussions and merry- go- arounds.
You cannot talk or discuss a multi level subject from one level. You cannot talk about two levels or two sides at the same, any more than you can look at the front and back of a house at the same time, from standing on one side or the other.
It is practically impossible to cover every point and facet and contradiction (of what Hubbard said or did) in one discussion or one position (posit- ion), or one presentation.
End of digression, to qualify.
So, yes, his intention was to build a bridge. But there was so much work that was required to build a bridge, that all he could ultimately do was to blaze a trail through the jungle.
In order to get an honest and accurate perspective of the subject, you have to take all perspectives simultaneously. You have put your self in his shoes, you have to consider the goal that was chosen or postulated. You have to take a bird on a wire (impartial) perspective too.
You have to take into consideration that we learn much more from mistakes then successes.
You also need to have some experience in doing something of considerable magnitude that has not been done before. Because, if you have done something of considerable magnitude (even something not so considerable) you would know that you have to do almost all the wrong ways first, before you figure out the right way.
(If you have not ever accomplished anything new of any magnitude, (at least something you are not aware that has been done before) then you are not qualified to comment on or criticize Hubbard and scientology and the bridge. If you did, you would know well what it is like. You would be aware of all the failures and screw up and disasters and hardships, trials and errors, you went through.)
Thomas Edison is another good example. It is said he had failed 10,000, times before he figured out the right way to make a light bulb that worked. (Although I think the number 10,000 is an exageration, it makes the point, that; you don’t give up until you get it done or continue as long as you have the health and strenght to do what has to be done.) He said I did not fail 10,000 times, I only figured out 10,000 ways that did not work.
That means Hubbard had to make the mistakes he did, that incl. he had to be insane, he had to be a criminal, because it takes one to know one.
Then he had to figure out what it took to become sane, become honest and mazimize a human’s full potential. He had to make a lot of mistakes. He had to figure out all the wrong ways, the ways that did not work before he figured out what worked. He just barely got to that point. It was really a point where he could only see light at the end of the tunnel.
You also have to take into consideration that he was mostly working with the insane, he was working with broken straws as his subjects.
When you understand this, you will also begin to see why he said all the lies and contradictions, etc.. The end justified the means. He had to tell lies, to keep the project going. The people he was working with, could not handle much truth, if any, …………….they really did not know what truth was, anyways, and telling lies was the lessor of two evils. It was necessary to control people with lies.
Now, it occured to me that at the time he had to tell the dummies ( the research subjects, the guinea pigs) that this was standard tech, or else he would not have been able to keep the show on the road and blaze the trail to the end.
The term “standard tech” was true for the purpose, at the time. It was the best stable datum possible. The end justified the means. And everyone was his guinea pig. Everyone was his slave.
So put yourself in Hubbard’s shoes and walk his track to see what it is or was like.
Then you will see that he did all what was humanly possible and then some. (Because I am pretty certain that he had other entities helping him, from back stage.)
And the best he could do in one lifetime, was to blaze a trail.
If you ever walked through the jungle and blazed a trail, or tried to follow such a trail, you would know what that means. You remove (slash) the bark off a tree here and there with your machete. (and at the same time, keep in mind, that analogies are not perfect)
It is now up to others to build a highway.
When he said in Dianetics, that he expected that someone to build a better brdige, it is evident that he had no intention to do so himself, at the time, otherwise why would he say such a thing?
But putting myself in his shoes at the time (1950 or so) , it is evident that he saw that there was no one else capable of doing so, (his faith in mankind, that he mentioned, was not founded) so one thing led to another and he took the task on himself and we have what we have today.
(He also had a lot of pressure from his followers (his flock) begging and pleading for more.)
If you take an honest look, you would realize that from the viewpoint of 1950, building a bridge ( a real bridge that really worked) was a Herculean task.
It is still a work of considerable magnitude and effort.
How many people, even after doing scntlgy, (that is; following Hubbard for all the yrs they did) think they now have a clue how to build a bridge that really works?
Normally if a sufficiently competent and intelligent person watches someone do something or work with someone doing something, you can not only figure out how to do it yourself, but do it even better.
Again, keep in mind that what was true yesterday, is not necessarily true today.
Also consider how else would such an effort or task ( as the bridge) be accomplished from the viewpoint of around 1950?
The only right thing we can do today, is to use (apply) the datum: any datum is only as good as it has been evaluated.
And evaluate every datum in scntlgy and evaluate it on it’s own merits and apply the data or tech from “How to study a science” and build a real bridge or highway.
Everyone in scn in his (Hubbard’s) time was only a guinea pig and a slave. In truth or in fact it was solely a research project. Any wins were relative. That means that wins were only something that was accomplished that were better than what was. But there was a lot more way to go to make a homo novus, to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. The evidence is in the results, that is in the products of the “bridge”.
The wins ( the releases, the samples of seeing the light) were only that, they were glimpses of what is to be achieved full time and stable.
After he died, everyone who kept on parroting Hubbard after he died, was at least a mindless fool, a sheeple.
The wise and competent and intelligent and conscious, would stop and honestly and impartially think and scrutinize and evaluate, (question everything) glean all that was good and chuck the rest up to experience ( learn from it, so you do not have to repeat the mistakes) and reorient and get to work ( get a clean slate) building a real bridge or highway that produced the desired results, a homo novus.
Everything that is required to build a real bridge or highway, exists today and is readily available. The research phase has been done. At least 99% of the research has been done.
What has to be done today, is like figuring out which piece of a jig saw puzzle fits where. This is the easy part.
Dio
T.O.
Well that is not what I meant.
Like everything else, there is a right way to make mistakes and a wrong way to make mistakes. Or rather stupid mistakes and non stupid mistakes. There is normal mistakes that the average person with a half a brain makes, and mistakes that stupid people make.
It is like people in a company, or business, there are mistakes most people understand and accept as ok or normal or justified. But there are stupid people who make stupid mistakes or make mistakes because they are mentally screwed up. That is what is meant by PTS.
So if you have a person in your company that makes too many mistakes and makes stupid mistakes, then you have to fire him or her, for incompetence, or lacking in average “common sense” and “average competence” and “average intelligence”.
It is relative and I suppose subjective.
Dio
Common sense is a basic ability to perceive, understand, and judge things, which is shared by (“common to”) nearly all people, and can be reasonably expected of nearly all people without any need for debate.
TreasonousFu*k +10 on that! well said.
Elizabeth.
PS; those who have really miss-duplicated the auditing tech when study and for that reason when they try to use it did not work for them have not brought changes in their outlook -life and these are the people who have now really negative comments-beliefs about scientology and auditing and these same people now went back into ‘practicing’ ‘other” what ever and now believing in the old ways, which did not work before…but works now.. well.. if it would have worked before being in example: Buddhism these people would not come and explored scientology but would have been free of their bodies, free from this Planet and be free from all their negative considerations and not getting into the body again repeating their same mistake by going back to the old which is Buddhism since that called them back because they practised it in other life times too.
“And so the work has emerged free of taint and misguided slants.”
Good example of Hubbard adding a misguided slant.
There are false fundamentals in L Ron Hubbard’s standard Scientology which make it fail as a viable system of therapy for the overwhelming majority of people.
For instance, not all mental ills and aberrations are handled by going “earlier similar”. Hubbard’s idea that all of man’s ills are from mental image pictures stored in the mind in “chains”, and that by going earlier/similar on this time track and getting to the basic on the chain, the aberration blows – is false.
Addictions, OCDs, hyper-active disorders, schizophrenia, depressions – all these things do not respond to this type of mental treatment, and some are worsened by it – especially if you have some KSW fanatic hammering it home on a person over and over because Ron said “what turns it on will turn it off” or some other bumper sticker slogan that blinds the fanatic from seeing that what he is doing is not working, but making the person worse.
Jeremy Perkins, Lisa McPherson, Kyle Brennan are just prominent recent examples of the disasters of standard Scientology. There are many more disasters which are not as widely known, or which have fallen away from memory because they happened too long ago.
Standard Scientology’s history of results is strewn with these disasters.
When you take every person who has ever been audited by any Dn or Scn process, and analyze the group for whom Scientology worked, you will find that – when compared to everyone who received auditing – it is a tiny minority of people.
And even for those on whom standard Scientology worked, it only worked some of the time – usually in the first few sessions. And much of that population has continued to “chase the dragon” of those first wins ever since – never noticing that Scientology stopped working for them long ago.
In order to correctly evaluate the results of Standard Scientology, you have to take the totality of everyone who has ever gotten auditing, and then you must count the misses (those for whom Scientology did NOT work) right along with the hits.
When you finally allow yourself to do this, you will find that standard Scientology is mostly a failure, and in too many cases, absolutely disastrous.
Never forget to count the misses, as well as the hits.
Alanzo
Totally agree! Excellent posting! Really hit home for me.
Nice one, Marty. You got inside my head expressing some of what was on the surface of just below as I pursued and wresteled with the bridge for 29 years. Having to attest to just about anything was my anathema. Now I would wonder what’s wrong with doubts and reservations. Enter anything with eyes open.
Marty makes the following points in his second paragraph:
(1) Hubbard blamed others when his technology did not work. It was never the fault of his technology.
(2) He continually justified for his technology not meeting the expectations that he put there, and that the results were forthcoming with the next “breakthrough” he was working on.
I think Hubbard was very excited by some advances he did make and gushed over them with over projections. That was his personality. He couldn’t help it.
A person is a product of his genetic code which covers both his spiritual and physical aspects. These aspects may be modified somewhat by the environment one grows up in and the education one receives.
But a person is essentially determined by his genetic makeup. Nobody can be totally self-determined. That was the case with Hubbard too. But he tried.
I am right now receiving auditing to finish up my lower grades. I’m on III. What I’m doing now and my previous independent auditing is fabulous. When an auditor really knows their stuff what they can do is incomparable to any other practice I am aware of. I feel and demonstrate results from these grades. You can argue its all in my mind I guess, but I don’t get that argument. What we are dealing with is the mind and spirit. If i find myself walking around with the ep, my life is better and I’m happy then I’m sold and I want more. I think if some people could experience or reexperience what this stuff does do when done correctly they would have a harder time denying it’s results.
I write this not in anger. It is my reality and I wanted to share it.
we always have what we believe in and that is our ”life”.. life is that huge lot of things which one believes in.. but where are those beliefs you have had when you were a childe, or when a teenager, on your first vacation?.. those thought are all gone and the one you have this moment while reading this post is your awareness now in this moment and that will be replaced by the thoughts you have about what you have read and that is your awareness and that is what we all have that moment when we are aware of something.
When you ”think of the past or the future again that is your awareness in that moment there is nothing more.
I just read your article Marty. Jaw dropping masterpiece.
Hey Paul!! 🙂
Your deconstruction of the way $cientology operates exactly equals the well known ‘moving target’ scam. The status of ‘clear’ didn’t fix your ‘ruin’? Go OT. That didn’t work? Try GAT 1. That didn’t work? Get rid of those pesky semi-colons. How about some GAT 2? The so called ‘end phenomenon’ can never really be reached. You are trying to buy a piece of Blue Sky.
Hi Theo, remember what Tolkien said about trolls and sunlight.
Chris, in my opinion, you can get all that and more from Buddhism. Buddhism uses mindfulness instead of E-meter to detect and handle unwanted conditions.
I give credit to LRH for coming up with a highly organized system. I am using what I have learned from him to expresses Budda’s technology in modern terms. This technology can be applied to oneself easily or in a co-auditing type situation. It is totally safe. It is also totally free.
Here is the link:
http://vinaire.me/khtk_minfulness/
.
I was on the tech lines in Scientology in many capacities for over 35 years and while I happen to think that Theo has it wrong about Marty, I respect and admire Theo’s desire to help people as well as his commitment to what he believes in. Theo was not a robot. He confronted the CoS with courage and dedication. I just think he needs to work a bit on being able to allow others to have viewpoints he finds “unnacceptable.”
That is some of the most ridiculous ad hominem I’ve ever read in my life. Point out one post I’ve made anywhere, Theo, where I blame anyone for my psychiatric condition. It’s biochemical. That means, among other things, that I didn’t take it in.
No, Theo, the death part comes into play because I not only take psych drugs, but I have sex with my own gender, and we all know what Hubbard said about homosexuality being deviance and being 1.1. Alanzo was nice enough over at Mike’s to bring up Hubbard’s exact quotes. And you said that you still believed literally in those words. Quod erat demonstratum, Theo. The person who needs an adjustment in Ethics (real Ethics, not Hubbard’s perverted version) is you.
Buddhism has helped countless people. 🙂
One of the primary reasons I accepted Scientology was the belief that the path was, in fact, scientific and fully taped…”everyone can make it.” This was then reinforced in KSW 1. It had to be, right?
It took me awhile, but after doing the bridge I finally got that it is not taped at all. In fact, if you just take the numbers from the Church, you can see how insane that claim truly is. Remember, they claim “everyone can make it.”
12 milliion introduced to the bridge
1500 have “made it” to OT 8. (approx number)
So, in 64 years, less than a hundredth of one percent (if I got that division right) made it on this super-duper fantastic no-fail bridge to freedom.
All I can say is, “well done!”
So are you saying the Ron’s Orgs are “a dangerous cult”? I am asking, what do you know of the Ron’s Orgs? What do you know of Traumatic Incident Reduction? What do you think of the Human Potentials Movement? Fritz Pearls? Eric Berne and Transactional Analysis? What do you think of “gurus”, whether American or Hindu? Buddhism? Buddhists live in communities, practice meditation, and esteem the Buddha. Are they in a cult?
I don’t question your credentials as a mental health worker, or student, or mental health consumer. I worked in psychiatry myself for about 13 years on the nursing staff level. In the trenches, so to speak. I am not an armchair expert, not an expert in any way. But I have been there done that, and I am getting the impression you haven’t. My perception of psychiatry is that it has a very narrow and parochial focus.
That’s not to say it doesn’t help some people. For many people it’s all they have because it is subsidized. It brings some missing order into their lives, it provides drugs (medications) that can tone down their distress and make it more bearable. Granted all that. But there are a lot more alternatives in living, than either being cultish about psychiatry or being in a different “cult”.
Can you give me some examples of groups that are not “cults”, or that might not be approached “cultishly” depending on the personality of the person involved? I just don’t really get where you’re coming from. If i listen to an LRH lecture once a day as part of my routine, time permitting, or work a Self Analysis list for 1/2 an hour most days, am I then a “dangerous cultist”? Or do you then consider me to be the “Victim” of a “dangerous cult”? Are you a card-carrying member of the Cult Police? Will you now lobby to have people like me sent to an internment camp to save society from a “dangerous cult”? Or have me deprogrammed by Court order?
This post may seem over the top, but these are real issues. Just visit the Internet, Facebook etc, you’ll see commenters proposing wilder things than anything I’ve posted, for real.
I also wanted to say that having run the gauntlet of corporate Scientology and making it out it does give one confidence that they can get out of any trap in the future and not get into one in the first place anymore. At least not one that is very damaging.
On top of this I still say that I got things from the construct called Scientology. I still would go for auditing if I needed some sort of help with a trauma or loss. The thing to remember is that it is a limited construct and it is dangerous if the consumer is not forewarned about the nature of this trap.
Marty, I am still laughing from your article. You shaved all the meat off the bone and then boiled it in lye. It’s as clean as a wolf’s tooth.
I have a question for you if you care to answer it? What is the workability of the e-meter? And do you think there is any workability in the upper levels and if so why? I feel I got some wins from the OT levels yet the idea that the BT’s were implanted on me and all the Xenu stuff never seemed believable to me.
but did it free them? they have just give up one form of belief for a different one.. and that not spiritual freedom in my reality.: 🙂
I think Marty nails it regarding LRH’s attitude, a combination of arrogance, lack of humility, inability to recognize rightnesses of others, or to ever admit any of his own wrongnesses, etc.
As far as the winding roads of tech that we all had to agree were always completely true WHEN they were in force even though we might have to change on a dime at a later date, I can only say that right now I could do a clay demo on why you always complete a Dianetic case before you do the grades on a person (as was the grade chart in the 70s for instance) and I could also do a clay demo on why you always do the Grades before you audit someone on their Dianetic case. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We could go around and around on the word “standard” and how it is presented and mishandled in Scientology materials, but I will point out that auditing does work as well as it does because of certain fundamentals and when those go out, the activity fails and when they are in, the activity is successful (resulting in a higher emotional tone/realization). Here is one of many hundreds of examples I could give that readers here might find interesting. About forty years ago, a friend of mine was raped (she was also an auditor). Of course I offered to give her an assist. When I gave her the first “step 9” of procedure R3R “What happened?”, her reply was “I don’t want to tell you”, I simply then did the “standard” action, I said “OK. Continue” looked at her silently and expectantly and she did of course tell, we ran through it a number of times and had a successful session that made her feel better.
The comm cycle, the desire to help, the Auditors Code fully applied, ARC, TRs, handling a case on the correct gradient, giving the correct commands, ensuring the pc understands what is being done and what his role is, etc etc comprise the fundamentals of the subject that makes sessions result in realizations and a happier person (MY experience anyway). When sessions failed, my experience has also been that one or more of these fundamentals were not applied.
Tony,
The e-meter (resistance detector) is used in law enforcement and a variety of consciousness studies. Those applications validate the meter’s workability in locating resistance connected with thought. The problem with scientology’s use is that the program ultimately makes the follower so dependent upon it that his psyche takes on the mechanical characteristics of it in some ways.
Marty
Yes, I believe it did because I have met Buddhists who appeared very calm, rationa, full of compassion and tolerant of others.
Buddhism does not advertise itself. It is still there after 2600 years because it has produced results.
who ever said that OT 8 was the end of the Rainbow? just because the numbers ended that has not meant the work to free self has ended too.
just look around do you see the OT’s who stopped solo auditing with 7 or OT8 are free of considerations? no… they are not, the work need to be continued, I wonder why you folks believe that having infinite life times in the infinite Universe and that immense amount of experience one have had can be erased by few hundred or few thousand of auditing hours.
I been solo auditing since 76 and still there are daily sessions and cognitions.. once the aches-and pains, etc.. have been confronted, than ones reality is expended enough to see the much bigger pictures and with that in place the solo auditing continues.. each realization is a new reality and that reality again opens into again different realities.
this planet here and ”human thinking=its nature is a tiny experience in comparison of our existence-experience in the universe.
Al, although I think you have posted some useful concepts here, this kind of thing – “….you have to take the totality of everyone who has ever gotten auditing,……” is, well, “idealistic” to say the least. (Aren’t you proud of me? I stopped myself short of saying it is “Off the wall in Never-never Land….”)
If you were an Omniscient Arhat or a perfected OT ad infinitum, perhaps then you could somehow have knowledge of the results attained or not by “every person who ever received auditing”,but as a finite person working in the real world, I think the best you can do is probably keep track of the people you audited and what kind of results they achieved, and compare notes with other auditors and add their results into your overall assessment.
I would find your assignment as given a bit overwhelming. But if you feel up to collating the results obtained by “every person ever audited”, I say GO For It! Perhaps talk it over with your therapist first though.
Hear, hear! A voice of Reason!
Terril, thanks for posting this data.
Do you know if TIR actually squirrels Dianetics, or is it the same procedure with perhaps different terminology?
Joe P. ”The comm cycle, the desire to help, the Auditors Code fully applied, ARC, TRs, handling a case on the correct gradient, giving the correct commands, ensuring the pc understands what is being done and what his role is, etc etc comprise the fundamentals of the subject that makes sessions result in realizations and a happier person (MY experience anyway). When sessions failed, my experience has also been that one or more of these fundamentals were not applied.””
fantastic! and that too is my reality but when one has such a valuable tool in ones hand than why any one is concerned of the behavior of a man who has given that tool and long since dead? he has given more than any of his critics did even when their number combined.. and these lovely critics have not contributed more that their negative shit..
.Oh cognition: that is all they have and no more.. no wonder they are ridding on the same hoarse they never get off it and that hoarse is called NEGATIVE!
Fascinating! This sounds like a ‘form follows function’ kind of thing, an adaptation to function…. LIke the London cabbies whose brains grow larger in certain parts because they have to memorize so many maps and then “think with” them.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/london-taxi-memory/
paraphrasing? can you please find a reference? If we just give verbal data and say Hubbard said this or he said that, then of course this can open maaaany discussions which will have no basis. I never saw such a reference from Ron. The one I saw but don’t recall which one it was, was talking about church and a via.
And I will say it again. I am not fair gaming anybody and especially Marty. I am uttering my views. Simple as that.
Marty, I am not surprised by your question.
Actually it was Miscavige who interpreted the word “free” as “for no money” when I was the TU DIR EU and he wanted to stop paying the non staff translators. My jaw dropped as I couldn’t believe it. Of course the reference Marildi put further below can explain everything.
Mrs. Freeman, what is your definition of a wog? I would appreciate it if you didn’t look it up but answered in your own words.
“When you take every person who has ever been audited by any Dn or Scn process, and analyze the group for whom Scientology worked, you will find that – when compared to everyone who received auditing – it is a tiny minority of people”
“When you finally allow yourself to do this, you will find that standard Scientology is mostly a failure, and in too many cases, absolutely disastrous.”
Alanzo, generalities, by pro or anti, are often quite tiring…
The question is, why wasn’t there any need for all this correcting in your own case – since, per your own statement, you got tremendous gains? According to you, the only thing that differentiated you from the “majority” of others – who, in your opinion, had “negative results” – was that you didn’t toe the party line. In other words, what you are implying is that what kept others from having gains was that they did toe the party line – and that the tech itself produces great results.
What is the reason for critics being there?
A person fron the East?
Your last paragraph is a beauty.
Vinaire… Buddhism does not advertise is self Because it produces results: calm, rational, full of compassion and tolerance… yes right you are and every one of these are human traits.. but not spiritual freedom . by your own belief when all that is erased, confronted one has nothing more than awareness even that awareness is not the Spirit.. did I get you thinking right?
Well Li –
This isn’t a generality.
This is taking an aggregate total, breaking it into its constituent parts, and discussing the relative size of each of those parts.
If you’ve ever seen the number of people who walk into an org or mission, get some auditing and never come back again, and compare that sized number to those who get some auditing and actually stay in Scientology, you’ll understand the relative sizes of the groups that I am talking about.
The huge number of people who try auditing and who never come back are usually ignored and are not being counted when a Scientologist asserts that “Standard tech works 100% of the time when correctly applied!”
If it makes you tired to think of this, then I suggest that what turns it on will turn it off.
Alanzo (:>
Elizabeth, I totally get it and agree.
I was merely pointing out that what i was “sold” back in the mid 70’s was that one would achieve total freedom (never needing auditing again) if one just followed the exact path…3-5 years total time. this was promised on numerous occasions by reges and tech terminals alike. It was the
“talking points” of the org. At first Clear was the promise, then it was III and Vii, then 8 was the magical EP. As you said, it never truly ends, but that was not what was promised or sold. “Just do the bridge, get to OT 8, and then all is great. Then you can make lots of money! Easy squeezy!”
Am I responsible for believing it or hoping it was true? Absolutely. My viewpoint about spirituality and enlightenment is totally different now.
I wanted the path to be fast and promised. I am only pointing out the lie that was promised from the start.
You had to have mevclick that
I love you
Buddhism no advertises it self? now what ever has given you that wrong idea? 400 million believers and every one of them is on advertise it self: look at my appearance, look at me how I am, look at me how I behave, what I wear, how I walk, how I pray, how I chant, how I meditate, how I walk, what I say, how I decorate, how I worship, how I hang up banners etc… etc.. etc.. etc.. I am so good, I am so noble ugh….the true infinite who practises what is will not be recognised because there is nothing to be recognised there is NO VALACES, the Entity is not in a valance of the worshiped!
Every of the persons who are worshipping Gautama are doing their best to get into Gautama’s valance and by doing that they think, they wrongly believe that they will achieve Enlightenment! PLEASE!
Gloves are off
What is Standard Scientology ?
Scientology the L Ron Hubbard way.
If you straight from that you were ore are “cooked”
So you end up forever running Ron’s case
So Standard Scientology is ?
Hubbard starts off the policy letter with ten points for applying the correct “technology” of Scientology and he addresses the progress on each of those points;
“Having the correct technology”:[5] Which Hubbard asserts has been done.
“Knowing the technology”: He claims many do know this.
“Knowing it is correct”: Hubbard says this comes from application and observation.
“Teaching correctly the correct technology”: He claims this is being done worldwide.
“Applying the technology”: Again, he says this is already happening.
“Seeing that the technology is correctly applied”: He says instructors and supervisors do this.
“Hammering out of existence incorrect technology”: The first problem area according to Hubbard, where he says it is a “weak point” and is only handled by a few.
“Knocking out incorrect applications”: Hubbard says this isn’t worked on hard enough.
“Closing the door on any possibility of incorrect technology”: Hubbard says this is, “impeded by the ‘reasonable’ attitude of the not quite bright.”
“Closing the door on incorrect application”: Hubbard says this is, “seldom done with enough ferocity.”
❤
Wait a minute, Li!
What am I saying!?! You say you are tired – you’re lacking mass!
Get thee to a demo kit – stat!
Alanzo
Standard Scientology
Right you are… but by the time we have done the OT levels all of us and not just some of us should have become aware that what was sold was no more than PR but what we bought and still had was the knowledge and the working technology which till than brought us that knowledge.. So tell me, why than not continue and use the same tools and get more of those wonderful cognitions?
When I left in 76 the only thing I had was the realization that I wanted more of the same, had no money, had no job, went to live with my sister than I got 2 waitressing jobs and got my emeter out and started the sessions, because I had MORE ARCB’s than I could count them.. and I went from there. Since than I had nothing more than on incredible life which was created by me by using the tools I have paid for. 🙂 We all have the ability to asses, to judge, to compare.. why settle for something which we dont agree with? Yes.. those of us who have continued the word ”spirituality’ holds a very different meaning 🙂
V… you already know the answer for that, and that answer could hold 2000 different reasons. 🙂
🙂 🙂 🙂 and some wonders how scientology become altered and why that happened?
just think, DM has altered scientology: what LRH have said and written he altered it accordingly how he understood it, Now if every person have had the authority = being in the position to do the same as DM had what would be the outcome?
Right on Attila! Your arrow hits the mark. He contributed more, to more people, than most any “critic”. That is not to say the whistleblowing on bad applications shouldn’t be happening.
T.O. No one is calling Marty a squirrel. Why is Marty auditing and then downgrading Scientology and Hubbard? That is the point.
“I can only assume that LRH was losing it after 1978, when I personally think he had a stroke or some such medical event that changed him.”
On Marty’s thread “Back to the Middle” a youtube interview of Peter Moon was posted, in which Peter stated that LRH had a near-death experience in 1978. He also gave a pretty favorable description of LRH based on his experience working in LRH’s “Personal Office” on the ship, and “having seen his internal discussions and memos,” he said that “LRH was very convinced that he was trying to help people…and he WAS helping people…” Then he went on to say that he felt the near-death experience may have been what “led to a degenerative situation.” He said after that, LRH wasn’t quite with it all the time.
Mar, check the TIR website here: http://www.tir.org/
Although I know the person running it, I do not know the exact specifics, I never asked for details, but I can tell you some of my impressions.
It is fundamentally incident running as in dianetics.
I believe originally Sarge Gerbode worked out an extensive written agreement with the CoS, that he could use the tech but could not use copywrited or trademarked terminology, ie he couldn’t call it “dianetics”, or “auditing”, etc. Thus “Applied Metapsychology” instead of “Scientology” and so on. But in fact “Metapsychology” is not simply a form of ‘standard scientology”, it has incorporated methods and knowledge from other disciplines like Psychology into a complete approach to therapy and self-improvement. It was a very detailed agreement I’ve heard.
Sarge was I believe Clear and a Class VI auditor at least, also an MD.
TIR does workshops, trainings, and practitioners all over the country as well as overseas and the website has “search” functions for finding these. It is th eopposite of th eCoS and Scientology in being very “inclusive” rather than “exclusive”, in the sense that they incorporate good ideas and workable methods that they come across as long as they ‘test out’ and are seen as having some validation. But a lot of good therapists are eclectic in that way, at least where I live, incorporating Vipassana, mindfullness, etc. But fundamentally there is a lot of LRH tech included in it.
Glad you appreciated it, Al. I’ll write up what I do to find references and send you an email soon.
LOL (I probably learned that word from Marty 🙂 )
Chris Mann, we don’t care about your reality and your wins. You can have more by some other practice, believe us. Yes, it’s all in your mind. It’s subjective and not real. So, understand that Scientology does not work except in some exceptions like you.
(how about that for a real good evaluation and invalidation? Why can’t people acknowledge somebody’s win without evaluations and invalidations? Oh, no we are in the other extreme now. Anyway, congrats Chris Mann).
But he still wrote the book Battlefield Earth, which, I thought, was very good.
jonsty.. I been thinking about what you said how our reality on ”spirituality” has changed.. 🙂 so very right you are on that..i think I have had some kind of Holy valance in mind, that I be :pure, good, saintly, doling out blessing, fluttering about, but that is not what spiritual is…:) if that would be the case, the outcome of solo auditing than I would be asking for my money.. 🙂
That is all can think of. But I am sure there are plenty of other reasons. So no, I am not implying that although it looks like you were really hoping I was.
Thanks, Val. What you describe is probably what will happen in large part with the tech as time goes on – and already is happening, although giving credit to and calling it “scientology” isn’t now and won’t always be the case.
Someone say Sea Org ?
Yes, he has been called a squirrel. I don’t see him downgrading, I see him pointing out the truth and situations. Isn’t Scientology knowing how to know? Now he is supposed to apologize for knowing? Isn’t it a little late for that?
I think that is downgrading Scientology. When you subscribe to the purpose of knowing, and then park yourself in a bubble of illusion. When you pretend it is your purpose to know how to know, and then pretend to know when you do not, and what you do know must be buried from view.
And that makes me want you dead, right? Oh, god! I think you are taking all your wrath out on me, just because I happen to seek the application of standard tech. Well, allow me to say that that does not mean that I am against homosexuals. Ok, that’s a long discussion but that does not make me against them. I have friends who are homosexuals and we are very good friends. I think you got some things very misunderstood. The Ethics part was going to the “accusing others” practice. Not to the homosexuality. That to clear up things.
There is an issue in which he lists exactly what he means by “standard tech” but I don’t happen to have it to hand. Sorry. It is very specific and actually very limited.
Okay. I just don’t think I’ve ever heard of anybody else who says they benefited so highly from the tech and at the same time be highly critical of it. That’s basically what I mean.
The sun is bright ahead,
and some fear it,
and call it death.
And you assert that you’ve read my books and this blog? Wow.
Looks like Hypnotism = suppression of the ability to think rationally.
You put a person i daze, and he’ll walk around robotically and do your bidding because he is unable to think. That happens quite a bit in Sea Org or anywhere excessive punishment is used.
I believe Sarge Gerbode does, or did, give a lot of credit to LRH/scientology in his original introduction to Metapsychology. I don’t know if that is still published as such or not. Especially given the “wonderful” PR the CoS has created for itself by it’s incredible actions over the decades, they might want to disassociate themselves from the current scene. I mean look, people today have no clue what I’m talking about when I talk about what I thought SCN was all about in the 1970s.
Then can you answer the question as to why you think you yourself escaped all the many pitfalls in the tech that you write about?
yes.. I do understand that.. but those of us who have been continuing we do not concentrate on who said, what and why, or was LRH wearing boxing or jokey short and how DM picks his nose. Valkov… there is so much need to be done. I know a solo auditor who also has been taken by the church and cost him $$$$ when he left he had nothing but money problem, massed up case=ARCb’s and he decided to confront all that crap.. taken him few years to straighten all that out and after that he has continued with solo auditing changed his life, his outlook and he is in session every day and winning.. loving every moment of his adventure. He is using the tech for 20 years now.. Valkov,, there is not much point to dwell on what has happened that never helped any one. bad application is not out of evil intention but how the person see that material.. he believes it is wrong because it did not helped him, could not that guy not likely believed that it worked in the first place.[ my assumption]
The follower using the e-meter (by himself or by his auditor) leads to the follower being other-determined, instead of being self-determined (to speak in Hubbard’s terms). That his mind eventually takes on the mechanical characteristics of the e-meter in some way or another, I consider as very dangerous. It looks like programming an individual to a robot like personality. It is a horrifying scifi scenario. This is mindcontrol.
Yes, it is what SHOULD happen. And someone might develop a “Standard Tech” brand that is good enough that I might be able to say “Go see those people over at “Standard Tech”, they are pretty good stuff that actually helps a lot.” That is not to sat there will be only one group that gets good results using the basic ideas and methods.
NOOOOOO, I did not…. each individual sees differently accordingly to their own reality and that alone is the altering fact., regardless one is or was or never was staff.
Hey Thanks! I haven’t seen that video and will watch it. Diana Hubbard wrote a poem around then that seems congruent. It has some darkness in it.
A specific and limited list
“I see it that it is either that simple or his question may have been is he communicating with the real you, or just the person putting up an LRH quote in place of the ability to think about a new original thought.”
Still Awakening, I don’t think you got what the discussion was about. It concerned what LRH meant by “static” and how he defined the word – not my opinions of that or of anything else.
My point – clear and simple: Yes, I benefited highly from what I did in Scientology. And, I think I could have achieved that in a multitude of other ways. Learning early on to simply Letting Go would most certainly be one of them – without the creation of the Only True Cult Bubble and much side effects.
Iamvalkov, I cant live with myself anymore
Just paste every comment I make in Google
Thank you too, Theo.
Very good post, Vicar. Can you elaborate a bit on what you wrote here:
“LRH thanked Guttenberg for the ability to quickly spread his ideas.”
Sylvia, are you the Sylvia who was an auditor at Flag?
Read my books and blog
different filters
When you turn over your control you are unable to pedct anything.
Sometimes it is not up to you. It just happens.
Marildi, have you read Bare Faced Messiah, Piece of the Blue Sky or Messiah or Madman?
These books are an essential read for those who care to discard feelings difficult to get rid of.
Anyone looking to de-hypnotize themselves from any mental conflict that Scientology caused will be well served by these books as well as Marty’s.
These books will dislodge the foundation of cult think by revealing the man behind the curtain.
Please read these books. They were an eye opener for me.
A couple of things I can recall off the top of my head that probably relate are (1) you didn’t take the data on OT III literally (and maybe NOTs as well, unless you came to view it differently at some point later) and (2) you were able to do a lot of training without being interfered with and harassed.
I would think that those things, plus whatever else occurred for you that enabled you to benefit so highly (as you basically just confirmed) would be the things you would be recommending to people so they could benefit too – rather than basically telling them to stay away.
Thanks.
Thank you Joe. I appreciate the good words. As a matter of fact I am considering what you are saying especially when some ARC is put into the situation. That helps a lot. Thoughtfulness and courtesy make elbows rub better. And two way comm is actually part of manners. So, I guess I have some ARC break with Marty, for example, at least, not acking that those HCOBs on the translations were the actual tech, lol. As Zara Kotric once told me “you are fixated on the HCOBs”, lol.
As a matter of fact Marty has crossed some lines, he is pushing buttons and in general he has downgraded Scientology. This is not just my view. He also announced it on this blog that from now on it is not going to be pleasant for some folks like me. I am trying to stay analytical and understand. Why do I have to understand Marty? I don’t know. We spent some time together here. Now, he’s gone too far ahead, maybe. No sense of correct gradient? Maybe. He is a curious guy but you know curiosity also killed the cat. I don’t want to sound like a stupid, fanatic who doesn’t want to see progress because I am not that type of person. But there is this other aspect. The world is going mad, we are all using Scientology to a great extent (come on, guys, admit it, you may not all of you have fought for HCOBs against Miscavige like I did, but you certainly have seen the good in Scientology) and here we are fighting. This is like a third party. And certainly, there is a line somewhere that has to be drawn. Ok, there are radicals, there are transcendentalists, there are curious guys who want to research more and more which is great but we do have some stable data, too. I mean what is a Static? Do we have to discuss this? Ok, it looks like we have to. But then there is this process “Conceive of a static”.
What I want to say is that not all things can be discussed. It brings chaos and misunderstandings. Some things better be handled in one’s universe and be subject to questions to individuals who can help. Who is going to discuss a Static here? People who are against Scientology because they cannot conceive of who(what) they are? People who had never had the chance to exteriorise once in their lives or even feel a bit separate from the body? So, this brings chaos and a fast decay. It happens also on Facebook. People start quarrelling about things. People with huge differences in “R”. Sometimes it’s as simple (and powerful) as to do some word clearing or apply demonstrations or get some more mass or reality about something. We could work more like a 3rd dynamic but that does not happen, yet.
I am not saying at all that we should stop discussion and researching. At all. But we should keep a bit of respect for our stable data.
Joe, those HCOBs on translations saved my life. Because right there I knew that Mgmt was not really what it posed to be. They wouldn’t even apply HCOBs much less protect a staff member who was complaining about their non application. The outpoint was huge. After that all the situations start coming up. 3 Greeks in the TU knew already that Miscavige was a big liar and a crook. We had our Stable Data: the HCOBs and the strong refusal of Mgmt to apply them. That led us out of the Confusion Mgmt was creating: “you must reach for the Technology but you can’t reach for the technology”, “you must withdraw from those HCOBs, Theo” but Theo couldn’t withdraw from the HCOBs. That’s the definition of insanity. We know that. If we call this fanaticism well all the people here who visited and endorsed Scientology must have not been true to themselves then at the time they were in. So, something happened (it’s not just the translations HCOBs, a lot of things got altered) which made them sick and tired.
So, it’s not that I can’t have another viewpoint that is unacceptable to me. The point is that we have to preserve some things actually. I don’t care about homosexuals and being so rigid about that. I also I have not been an angle in my 2nd dynamic this life time. This matter came up with Espiando who thinks we all want to throw homosexuals to the fire. This is not what is going to create a big improvement. This is not even a serious issue. A big improvement is going to be created when basic things are going to be preserved and worked upon.
Sorry for the long answer, you got me going. But I thank you for the quality of your communication and the ARC in it. Marty is a strong guy but I am now convinced that there is room for improvement and help for him too, even if he always had a higher post on the org board or was more able with concepts, words, books etc. Marty is a part of Scientology’s history and he made mistakes due to the pressure by Miscavige. He now does not have that pressure. Maybe Marty didn’t get to know the kind of Scientology that you and I got to know. You know what I mean? He definitely wants to help but he has to understand that saying that Scientology is a “monotheistic religion” and insisting upon it makes one wonder: what is Marty finally trying to accomplish in his third and seventh dynamic?
not really Vinaire. One of the commonest mistakes Scientologists and Scientology’s enemies make is in the usage and understanding of this word: wog. When one comes to understand the real meaning and intention behind it, I think it all comes clear. The usage of the word is generalised but it shouldn’t. The word as used by Hubbard and in Scientology materials has a specific usage.
Okay, Geir. I guess I shouldn’t try to argue with you about your reality.
(For once. 😉 )
Not by me. I am attacking not Marty as a person but ideas and concepts which I find deleterious. So, for example, how is it that Scientology is a “monotheistic religion”? A new concept introduced by Marty recently, as far as I know. How does this relate to knowing? Am I missing something? Is this the type of “knowing” his research has yielded?
Completely agree, Elisabeth, thanks.
Marty, another great post.
As a further testimony of what you wrote I would like to add two links.
If people like theosismanides claims improved abilities in confronting reality, why not start confronting LRH lies?
First link is to a post by Alan Walters – it tells that it was LRH himself that introduced quickie grades and then blamed others for them (like he always did when something didn’t quite work out well).
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?1040-Analysis-of-Church-writings&p=11203&viewfull=1#post11203
The second is a classic by former Flag Cramming officer and RTC Inspector Jesse Prince: The Ever Changing Tech of Scientology
http://www.ezlink.com/~perry/CoS/Theology/jesse.htm
Very well said, Joe. Those fundamentals that we do neglect as important and we make other less important issues look important. Altered importances is an outpoint.
I think there are people who do deliver “Standard Tech” and call it that. A few I can think of, from what I’ve read, are Trey Lotz, Aida Thomas, Les and Anita Warren, Doug and Annette Davidson, Frank and Mary Freeman – although some of these may supplement standard tech with freezone stuff or whatever.
Sorry, I find no doc that Jesse Prince was Flag Cramming Officer and should be removed. I posted the previous post by mistake before completing my fact checking.
you can bet on that and that is the reason I believe: how we see something is only ours and for that we cant put the blame on something -somebody which we dont have a clue how the originator have meant that, what was their intention, how they have seen it.
Theo: “can you please find a reference? ”
I never said the work was free.
What’s up with your file clerk? Mine has a problem taking requests from you. It’s Like, “F’k him, why do I have to fetch for him?”
So I says, : ” Go look through Hubbard’s mind file and bring me something he can think with. Because Freedom from Scientology will have no basis in his mind otherwise.”
Fortunately, my file clerk likes to dig through Hubbard’s mind.
03 Mar 1952 Introduction to Scientology Milestone One Wichita Kansas Tape Lecture One.
(These were the first 10 lectures in the HUBBARD COLLEGE
LECTURES (HCL) Series of early 1952. This is based
both on the transcripts in R&D volume 10 and an old
reel-to-reel set of the tapes)
“Now, when you’ve got Milestone One, and when you know
you’ve got: it, when everybody else knows you’ve got it,
you can do anything you want to do – anything – on your
self-determinism. But the horrible fact of it is, is
there’s very little self-determinism until you get
Milestone One, but there’s a lot of circuit-determination.
And that’s something for you to remember. If you will just
stay with me on this line, up to the first milestone in
Scientology, and bring yourself up to a high level of
ability and apply yourself to that, you will be free – free
of me and Scientology too! (audience laughter)…”
Your propensity for issuing false data apparently knows no bounds.
So, you see what an outpoint it is for someone who is not free of Scientology, and Hubbard too, to call themselves Milestone Two?
Yes, at one time he was a Flag Cramming Officer.
Ron wanted to make a lot of money
Always lack of curiosity kills the man.
Your propensity for false, infotainment sum up of ideas you don’t grasp apparently knows no bounds.
Okay, but why not answer the basic question I’ve asked? It seems like your replies to me are almost always an evasion in the form of a personal insult.
Val.. The questions you have asked me would take the time of a PhD dissertation.
Marty is encouraging diverse opinions. I have an advantage over you in that I have read most of your comments since I began lurking. I am preparing you for many views different than your own and how you will respond.
……………
“What do you think of the Human Potentials Movement? Fritz Pearls? Eric Berne and Transactional Analysis? What do you think of “gurus”, whether American or Hindu? Buddhism? Buddhists live in communities, practice meditation, and esteem the Buddha. Are they in a cult? ”
………..
This has nothing to do with what I think about Scientology and that is what we are discussing.
” What do you know of Traumatic Incident Reduction?”
TIR? It is not a valid treatment of desensitization ( MY opinion)
Founded by Dr. Frank Gerbode..( Scientologist)
I do not subscribe to it. I have worked with many PTSD clients.
To go over, and over, and over ad nauseum about traumatic memories and incidents only retraumatizes the person.
It’s like having a scab over a wound and ripping it off each time as it is trying to heal.
If you would like for me to give you a list of what defines a cult I will. Will I give you a list
Ron’s Org?..Never discount the knowledge of an informed critic or the value of lurking.
It delivers standard Scientology and Dianetics Tech according to LRH.
It looks to source. If you want me to spit out knowledge about Captain Bill I will refrain. I do know the history.
Goal to Clear the Planet.. ( Val seriously what does that mean to you? )
Ethics tech of LRH.. Quite a contrast in comparison to what Ethics really means. Outside Scn.
I refuse to say that Scn is a church. I refuse to accept Reactive Mind, Engrams, auditing, the Bridge, Going Clear, OT Levels or Study Tech.
Or to accept Scientology as a philosophy written by an Evil man who only wanted Power and Control.
This is another GPM. Scientologists fair game their own products.
You get a guy like Marty, he brings himself up to a high level of ability and applies himself to that, he becomes free – free of Hubbard and Scientology too. Just like Hubbard promised people could, and what happens?
Some “standard tech” loyalists who pledge to the holy scripture, name themselves Milestone Two, fair game him as evil and overt product.
This is exactly what I am talking about when I say, One for one, the fanatics can not think with the Scientology.
I am not anti Scientology. I am not anti religion. I am not anti Hubbard.
I am anti stupid.
Good move. & thanks 🙂
Brian, why don’t you let up on the constant efforts to get me to read how awful LRH was – and of course to then come to feel the animosity towards him that you do.
You’ll be happy to know that I’ve read much of that kind of thing – and I consider it beside the point of what has been shown to be valuable in scientology. That’s where my interests lie – not on the shortcomings of LRH.
In the text you provided, LRH wrote;
“For this we can thank the gentleman from Guttenberg and the invention of magnetic tape.”
He is stating the printing press resulted in the proliferation of the printed word being made possible. For that he gives thanks.
Hubbard was pretty derogatory about people from the East.
Val, in this vid Mary Freeman quotes what LRH meant by “standard” from the Class VIII tape “Standard Tech.” She herself is a Class VIII who trained under LRH, and she elaborates on what standard tech is in terms of how it relates to basics in scientology – as you suggested in another comment here somewhere, and I have thought of it in just that way myself.
I have to comment on your game from time to time to stem the tide of falsehoods that pour from your fingers. Only other alternative – given the lack of time I have to moderate – block your many IP addresses.
Oh my God. So that’s what is going on with you. You probably won’t believe me but I’ll say it anyway. I have had a few computer changes (not “many:”) since I first posted here in 2009, and for a short while at one point I used a friend’s computer at times. But I think you’ll see that my posts didn’t generally go back and forth between all of these – which might mean something to you, I don’t know. But I don’t know what else to say.
“You wind up with the curious phenomenon of apparently sincere people devoting their lives to vehemently defending their own entrapment.”
Right on, Bro!
Here is the transcript for Class VIII Tape “AN INTRODUCTION TO STANDARD TECH” with some comments for me.
Click to access 01-an-introduction-to-standard-tech.pdf
there you go again, it seems you are one of the many who only can see the negative and by pointing it out”Look what that poor SOB has done!” with that in fact pointing toward self that “”LOOK HOW SMART I AM I KNOW BETTER THAN WHAT THAT SOB HAS DONE!” well man, prove it. talk is cheap… very cheap.. when you come up with something better, more workable I be on your side… till than …. I just continue with solo auditing. and when was crime to make money.. I bet you have dreamed that you could do just that, but have you become rich and famous? You are in hiding cat daddy! and at blame!
🙂 I go into shock when someone agrees with me! 🙂 Mind you readers of my blog do and that dont cause a shock wave..hehehe. only while I am posting in someone’s blog.
Ah, of course.I basically understood that when I read it but forgot about it, I think partly because the name wasn’t familiar. Thanks.
How does an Organization deliver the Sunshine Rundown, after which the P.C. attests to return of self determinism, and then order him in for a sec check every six months?
You give the guy something, and then you snatch it back away from him.
So why did you charge him for something he can’t keep?
I am not saying people should not be encouraged to continue.
But seriously, if you are promising return of self determinism, and the guy says he has it, and he goes off, and you bitch and bitch about all the the clears who ran away after completing the Sunshine rundown, and this is exactly what the Church does, don’t you think those people are missing a few chips? This guy usually moves out of the enforce band at this point. But NOT THE CHURCH! The staff are suppressed down into the enforce band. And they drag people back down with them!
At this point the message should be something like, “Come back when you feel like more auditing”.
Can you imagine the comm ev on that staff member?
They can’t do that, because they have to cannibalize their public, because Miscavige shut down the Mission network in 1982.
Whatever products they make, they then have to unmock them and recycle them, to keep the bills paid and keep the beggars moving.
David Miscavige survives by keeping people in the dark. And he isn’t the only one.
Scientology is a monotheistic religion because the source of all existence is considered to be a BEING in Scientology.
Why did LRH pick up the word wog which already had established meanings. Looks like you are justifying. Please read the Data Series on The Why is God.
2nd reply to your post…
OOPS..” If you would like for me to give you a list of what defines a cult I will. Will I give you a list ”
Obviously the words, ” Will I give you a list is incomplete..” I was answering your question
“Can you give me some examples of groups that are not “cults” No matter how I would respond it would not be the right answer.
I do NOT believe in Organized Religion. I am spiritual. I believe in a higher power that I call God. My belief is based on faith.
Here is the definitions from Tech Dictionary:
WOG, 1. worthy Oriental gentleman. This means a common ordinary run-ofthe-mill garden-variety humanoid. (SH Spec 82, 6611C29) 2 . a wog is somebody who isn’t even trying. (SH Spec 73, 6608C02)
theo.. You are playing games.. So you tell us. I could give you his def. until the cows come home. And you would disagree. What is your def ?
So come on big guy knock yourself out.
Yes it is Vin
So, Marildi and Valkov are the same person. 😉 I suspected that because they are like two peas in a pod.
>
Vinaire. [my nickel here] do tell me just how many scientologist that description fits so very well ”who are not even trying?” my estimation: 99 1/2 percent …. so if the shoes dont…. insult has that much affect what the so called insulted person believes has!
Ps.. you need different ammunition.
Timely post! Thanks Vin!
Thanks Marty. I guess the OT part can wait for another day… 🙂
Thank you Elizabeth I appreciate the ack 🙂
Re: the silver lining, is it really well meaning to want to become a powerful OT, how is it not egotistical to be completely self determined, or to have everything be the way you postulate, or to be pan determined and control both sides of a game?
Sometimes I wonder if ants think like scientologists, “oh I wish I had a leaf to eat… OMG there’s a leaf! I must have postulated it, OH FAK! I’m so so special, and if I created that then I created THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE!!! I’M ANT GOD, A THETANT!”
Thanks. I don’t believe in organized religion much, at least not for myself! 🙂 My mother once considerd sending me to an Orthodox school in DC, but didn’t, bless her heart. However, I can look back and see that it might have done me some good, depending on how it was run etc. However I think the enforcement of some things would have casued some problems….. It would have given me something to rebel against, as I was just entering my teens.
I basically see “cult” tendencies in any group. It’s only a question of degree. College fraternities are an example. Military boot camps is another. Corporate training. Religious training. Political training. The politics of the family. I’m sure you know what I’m talking about. Indoctrination takes place from early childhood. It is a matter of intent and degree, and for whose benefit. That’s my take on it from having lived overseas. Not to mention from having to deal with the military draft during the Vietnam era.
And yes, I am aware of the various defintions of what is a “cult”. It is funny, because Catholics consider “the Mormon”, as they call them, “not a chirch, it’s a cult”. Whereas some Protestant fundamentalists consider the Catholic church to be a cult.
So “what is a cult” can have as many answers as “what is scientology?” Can a general body of ideas be classified as a cult, apart from any particular embodiment or concretization, some particualr group formed on the basis of some or all of these of those ideas? Is all of “Christianity” a cult, for example?
T.O.,
Thank you for your comments. I agree with much of what you said. I found your “Reverse Ser Fac” comment especially interesting. I never thought of that before and can see that is a paramount tendency for some. Many of the individuals I have personally observed with this tendency have a weak reality and are easily controlled (possibly due to a fear of the consequences of disagreeing with others).
Maybe he was lecturing in England and was “pandering”(trying to go into “arc”) to their cultural mindset? Don’t forget this was right after WWII and as the imperialist-Communist threats from the “yellow peril” (pronounced the Chinese) were heating up. It was the Korean war era, and we had just fought a very grim war with the Japanese, who had surely considered themselves to be VERY worthy oriental gentlemen and had been building an Asian empire for 50 years….
So actually, that would even have played well in the US at that time. The anti-communist not only ‘played well’ it was virtually essential for survival in those decades, durng the McCarthy years and the general anti-Communist sentiment. And don’t tell me the various Communist vectors were not threatening to take over the world. They believed and said quite openly there would be Reolutions everywhere. Even in the 1960s Khruschev stood at the podium in the UN building in New York, and said “We will bury you!”, as he pounded on the podium with his shoe!
Just a thought. I get that it’s not your thing. All I can do is ask.
” It seems like your replies to me are almost always an evasion in the form of a personal insult.”
Mmmmm, that is exactly how I feel about your replies Marildi.
Theo, There were people that posted on this forum that they thought of Hubbard as a God. It was a shock to me. I actually had to get some auditing on this. Because it was something I contributed to unwittingly, and that made me a little sick to discover.
Don’t ask me how it is a “monotheistic religion”. I’m not the one who noticed it, and I’m not the one that subscribed to it. But it turned out to be true for a lot of people.
I have no idea why you would charge me with explaining this to you. Go back to the blog post and read. Go find someone that understands this. I don’t. You are enturbulating my file clerk now.
Sorry, Al, standardscientology hasn’t been delivered in orgs for many, many years.
Marildi….”“If a thetan is linked to mass, then a thetan must have location, even if it cannot be accurately measured.”
Elizabeth: still only the mass has location..mass never the location of the thetan and that can not be any other ways. If you would have experience on the matter you would understand what is happening.
Here’s the world in 1960. Just a few years earlier, the US had fought the Korean War, becaue the Noth Koreans (spelled Communist China) were attempting to take over the South. The Chinese were fully prepared to storm over the borders to help the NK. U.S. General McArthur acually wanted to use tactical nukes in that event. Had the Communist forces suceeded, their next target would eventually have been Japan and Taiwan. Here’s a short article that outoilines some of th relevant dates, and actualluy it is the unexpected Soviet intervention in N.Korea in 1945 that trapped my family there.
So yeah, why would the US have any animosity towards “Orientals”?
The Korean War was brutal, as had been the WWII against the Japanese Empire, starting with the Japanese allying with Germany and Italy and attacking the US.
Theosis.
You can do better. We expect better.
What is the reason for attaining greater awareness and spiritual freedom?
😉
Oracle “How does an Organization deliver the Sunshine Rundown, after which the P.C. attests to return of self determinism, and then order him in for a sec check every six months”
Elizabeth…. now you have overlooked something… if the person REALLY ACHIEVED WHAT HAS ATTESTED THAN WOULD NOT BE GOING BACK AND HAVE SEC CHECK simply because that person could not be ordered about . NEVER!!!!.
First cognition on any subject JUST GIVES A TINY GLIMPS WHAT THERE SHOULD BE HANDLED IN THE FUTURE SESSIONS AND THAT COGNITION THAT FIRST ONE WHICH PEOPLE=OT”s attest on the levels those cognitions are not the final basic-basic cognitions which might take another 1000 hours of auditing to achieve.
So Mrs Z… you place the blame on the wrong item -being-group, tech. what ever, but wrong in any case.
Theo.. You know exactly what you are doing. All you have to do is read for yourself what Marty thinks. You are disrespecting him. He has been on a journey. He is no longer trapped inside the bubble known as Scientology.
He has shared information with us for years. It is your responsibility to do your homework. Marty does not have to spoon feed you.
🙂
Yes, Vin. in Jungian terms, she is the Anima and I am the Animus. We are both some contents of YOUR Collective Unconscious! Expect us, as Anonymous likes to say…..
Erzsebet.
I really have to give you a big agreement on this point. All these OT level graduates out there spent all this money and effort learning to audit and to face their own cases, just sitting there bitching and moaning when they should be grabbing their own asses and working. I know, some do, a few. But the rest who didn’t get all they wanted, or their cases weren’t handled properly, or those who think they were cheated or trapped? Then fix it. Look and see what’s right for you AND DO IT.
If you got completely caved in and are now psychotic, sorry, get some assistance. Help someone else who needs it.
But for the others, you learned so much about yourself either from Scn. or from what Scn. did wrong. Look at and handle the ARCXs from Scn., and then get yourself looking and understanding.
Start tomorrow. But DO something, anything which will broaden your understanding. You know you should, you know you can. I prefer my methods, find yours.
Mark
Unless, of course, like the Buddha, you are able to “extinguish your outflows” (cease projecting realities for your own perception). Then perhaps, for you we would vanish.
T-Fu*k and T.O. about he ‘reverse serfac’ thing. That is a great observation by T.O. It is in fact one of the four basic existential positions postulated by Transactional Analysis:
1. I’m OK – You’re OK
2. I’m OK – You’re Not OK
3. I’m Not OK – You’re OK
4. I’m Not OK – You’re Not OK
Great insight, T.O.
Maybe this is just the point Marty is making when he suggests there is no such thing as standard tech. Sometimes mistakes are natural to make. A baby taking his first steps, someone learning to drive, someone trying out a new recipe. Sometimes mistakes are a result of ptsness. Yet you see the policy clear as day, mistakes = ptsness. No, mistakes do not always = ptsness. Yes, mistakes do = ptsness because Hubbard said so. You see, you really can go in either direction with this.
These individuals are playing games described by the Karpman Drama Triangle and according to the TA literature, often when pressed they will admit they are doing it knowingly. However it depends on the “degree” of their gameplaying, and does not preclude some hard-core outcomes like suicide or incitement to murder. And they often feel they cannot stop.
Hmmmmm. I wonder if some Buddhist organization pays Al a monthly fee to use the Buddha avatar when he posts on these blogs? Maybe that’s why he keeps up such a high post count…. Maybe I could make some extra money that way myself. Kinda like having my car wrapped with a company decal. But Buddhists probably wouldn’t pay much…. Oh well.
I had to get auditing on homosexuals. Not because of any thing Hubbard wrote. But because I had to fight with the Tranys for washers and dryers at the West Village laundry mat in New York for years. They would hoard the washers, run in front of me and push me to the side, take my stuff out of the dryer if I turned my back, and dry their stuff on my dime. Steal out of my laundry basket. It was a war zone for a straight person to walk in there. I was on it for about two hours on my grade zero. Fortunately, the guy who was auditing me, was flagrantly gay. And having him on the other end pulling me through this, balanced out the scales. We sure were in good glee for a few hours. And we are still friends today.
Hubbard’s Science of Survival was written when he was totally out ruds. He was down in Cuba and fighting with his wife. He also implied in that book that all women were 1.1.
But it was his wife that took the hit for him and went to Federal prison. And afterwards he threw her under the bus. And before she went, he threw her under the bus.
And he wrote in one auditing rundown, the R factor that ” family is bad “, all the while being the “family man”. I think he was the one seething in unexpressed resentment when he was sitting in Cuba, writing Science of Survival.
What could you possibly prepare me for? I read Tony’s Blog, I read ESMB, I’ve watched Youtube interviews, I’ve read “Blue Sky”, I’ve read “Blown For Good”, I’ve read Jeff Hawkins blog etc etc etc. Most of the folks I knew in Scientology years ago have been declared SP by the church for a long time. I don’t think there’s much you can prepare me for. Maybe you’ll surprise me.
I do appreciate your taking the time and thought to post here and reply to me, though.
I totally agree. If you are a being interested in spiritual advancement and you look you will advance. But personally I have never found anything that speeds up the process like Scientology.
So here is an experiment for you. Forget all the Hubbard stuff. Find something you are interested in exploring about yourself or life or the universe. Now just Prepcheck it. You don’t need a meter or anything. Just have someone ask you the questions and when you feel good about that one go on to the next. Or if you find one you’re not interested in then just skip it.
I’ve answered your questions many times, Brian. But you alter what I say into your version of it and then post that – as you did on just the previous thread where I pointed out that what you wrote was a multiple Straw Man.
I thoroughly get how you see things, and that nothing I say is going to make any difference to you. So now it’s time for you to stop trying to push your reality off on me too. Let’s keep it that simple.
Dio, I am not sure the research is done. I think there will always be more to learn. Perhaps if the back door would have been left open, for Scientologists, it might have been better. I have found the research done already, steps. Steps to potential understanding. Scientology is one big front door. People can enter through the front door, then they can camp in hallways,they can escape through the basement, they can jump out windows. They just can’t do an addition to the house or leave out the back door. I see it a blueprint for a foundation.
You know, even the people that leave all disgruntled, they are unacknowledged for their wins. For their gains.
When they came in, they wanted someone else to think for them.
When they jumped out, they wanted to think for themselves.
I see that as a huge promise for the future. For better things to come.
And then of course, I can look forward to someone like you being in that future too. 🙂
Another way I have viewed it, is that Scientology is a big womb. Sooner or later the womb gets crowded and someone has to go. If you don’t push them out, there is no room to make new. If you hold them in, the womb becomes polluted. This is as simple as understanding dissemination. When someone escapes from the womb of Scientology, they are viewed as a miscarriage, not a birth. It is like a big mother that disowns every child that is not a copy of the mother. Or that severs the umbilical chord. Hubbard even wrote a policy about OT’s not being able to survive with out OT’s (Scientologists will not survive if they leave the womb). And there are the ones that did not crawl out, they got kicked out or forced out, and they quickly move over to another womb.
I think Hubbard established a base for research. Because not too many people think they can expand on that, mainly because they have been discouraged from doing so, even warned and threatened, it is slow going.
Thanks Baby. It’s a brutal truth to confront for those of us who expended time, money, and passion in pursuit of Clear and OT outcomes that have never been demonstrated.
Since some will quibble with the word “cult” I will paste a list here of cult characteristics. By each trait, I will put a + by each item that fits Scientology in my experience. All 15 traits fit Scientology in my experience. I’ve put one or two examples headed by FOTF.
For anyone who wants to debate the point, it is pretty obvious that Scientology is a cult if one accepts the definitions below. Buddhism in most venues I’ve seen does not fit most of the traits below.
——————————————
Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups – Revised
Janja Lalich, Ph.D. & Michael D. Langone, Ph.D.
Concerted efforts at influence and control lie at the core of cultic groups, programs, and relationships. Many members, former members, and supporters of cults are not fully aware of the extent to which members may have been manipulated, exploited, even abused. The following list of social-structural, social-psychological, and interpersonal behavioral patterns commonly found in cultic environments may be helpful in assessing a particular group or relationship.
Compare these patterns to the situation you were in (or in which you, a family member, or friend is currently involved). This list may help you determine if there is cause for concern. Bear in mind that this list is not meant to be a “cult scale” or a definitive checklist to determine if a specific group is a cult. This is not so much a diagnostic instrument as it is an analytical tool.
+ The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
FOTF: KSW, “scripture,” etc.
+ Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
FOTF: This can end you up quickly in word clearing, cramming, ethics (even a condition of treason), RPF, etc.
+ Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
FOTF: TR 0, denunciation sessions, work exploitation — long hours with little to no sleep, etc.
+ The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).
FOTF: Pervasive control of members thoughts, continual efforts to invalidate any and all dissenting opinions (dead agent packs, disconnection, SP declares, lists of SPs — gawd, half the world is SP according to Scientology, etc.
+ The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).
FOTF: The only way and hope for humankind — the whole future of mankind rests on what you do here and now in Scientology.
+ The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.
FOTF: Wogs are us. Psychs are all whole track SPs. SMIRSH. Etc.
+ The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).
FOTF: Operation Snow White, P. Cooper, harassment of Stacy and Vaughn Young, the idiotic Squirrel Busters trying to torment the Rathbuns, flagrant violation of 501(c)3 rules, leader inurement, fraudulent fundraising, switch and bait sales, fraudulent packages of services, stalking, harassment, and so much more.
+ The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members’ participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).
FOTF: Greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics is the rule — and what is good for Scientology is always the greatest good for all. Many documented cases of lying under oath, at conferences, etc.
+ The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
FOTF: Heavy reging. Guilt over Sea Org members wanting to have kids (or a marriage, or just a life) and therefore not devoting 20 hours a day to the church, declares, KSW, etc.
+ Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.
FOTF: Disconnection, Scientology becomes the greatest good and personal goals, education, employment, are often set aside.
+ The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
+ The group is preoccupied with making money.
FOTF: No comment.
+ Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
FOTF: Staff working long days, seven days a week, pay slim to nil, short liberties, no holidays or vacations to speak of, billion year contracts, etc.
+ Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
FOTF: Certainly true for staff.
+ The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.
FOTF: Fear of fair game if you leave and speak out. Wariness of misuse of your “confessionals” — imagine a Catholic priest threatening to come at you with your confessions if you decided to leave the faith! Fear of disconnection from friends and family. Etc.
The article concludes:
This checklist will be published in the new book, Take Back Your Life: Recovering from Cults and Abusive Relationships by Janja Lalich and Madeleine Tobias (Berkeley: Bay Tree Publishing, 2006). It was adapted from a checklist originally developed by Michael Langone.
Marty, thanks for this post, which like so many is rich with important detail. Scientology has to confront the brutal truths about itself, and for those of us who are or were in, confronting those truths is critical for recovery.
“…I can think of no guru from the 50s through the 70s whose work was more valuable than creating a system of alleviating those factors from a person.”
Has there been any guru whose work was more valuable even after the 70’s?
I was waiting for Mrs. Freeman to answer as she made the comment in the first place: “still afraid of the wogs, eh?”
Anyway, wog does not mean a non Scientologist. Let’s clear that up. I know that in the church the term came to mean that but I don’t think Hubbard was using it in this way.
“common, everyday garden-variety humanoid … He ‘is’ a body. [He] doesn’t know he’s there, etc. He isn’t there as a spirit at all. He is not operating as a thetan.”
Saint Hill Briefing Course-82 6611C29
“We live in a very woggy world at this time. The wog is so out-ethics he is living in what amounts to a criminal society.”
– LRH, HCO PL 16 October 1967, SUPRESSIVES AND THE ADMINISTRATOR HOW TO DETECT SPs AS AN ADMINISTRATOR
“The dangerous environment of the wog world, of injustice, sudden dismissals, war, atomic bombs, will only persist and trouble us if we fail to spread our safe environment across the world.”
– LRH, HCO PL 5 April 1965, SCIENTOLOGY MAKES A SAFE WORLD
“I am not interested in wog morality.”
– LRH, HCO PL 15 August 1967, DISCIPLINE SPs AND ADMIN HOW STATISTICS CRASH
“Newspapers of the wog press almost exclusively deal in entheta as their ‘news’ specializes in sexual degradation, disasters, violence, crime, failure, etc.”
– Scn staff, approved by LRH, HCO PL 25 November 1968, AUDITOR CORRESPONDENTS
“We let the main traffic flow untroubled by checks designed to restrain the very few. This is quite opposite to usual wog organization where the many are penalised to restrain the few.”
– LRH, HCO PL 7 June 1965, ENTHETA LETTERS AND THE DEAD FILE, HANDLING OF
“…Or any other silly idea borrowed from a wog world where the police make things about as safe as a snake pit full of assorted reptiles.”
– LRH, HCO PL 7 December 1969, THE ETHICS OFFICER, HIS CHARACTER
“Don’t react to Scientology Justice as though it were ‘wog’ law. In society’s ‘courts’ one is given the works and truth has little bearing on the findings… Wog courts are like throwing dice.”
– LRH, HCO PL 27 March 1965, THE JUSTICE OF SCIENTOLOGY ITS USE AND PURPOSE BEING A SCIENTOLOGIST
That’s what I meant, we don’t need a wog society. It was used to put a line there between a society that is awaken from a society that believes they are bodies and that’s all. I am not playing any games. That the church has done such a bad job in interpreting and applying Hubbard is not my fault. And actually it’s not Hubbard anymore. Realise this guys. There is a whole written technology and it’s a comprehensive one. Some want to kill it, some want to maim it but some want to see it applied to others (in the best sense of the word) to make them aware of who they are. Wogs don’t even try. They don’t want to change anything. The majority of the people on planet earth are NOT wogs, they are people who could easily recognise they are thetans but they didn’t have a chance to see this. This is a huge danger for the status quo.
They are governed though by worse than wog politicians who use all the woginess that exists to cast a shadow over true intellectuality and philosophy on this planet. Scientology is a philosophy above all. Above all. And it is different than a wog society in that it brings light into one’s life once he starts to understand and apply its lessons. You can’t be a wog and be a truly spiritual person. Those things don’t jive. The word should be used to make that difference and not denigrate non Scientologists.
T.O. no need to be enturbulated. Come on. We are grown ups now, no time for that. Thank you for telling me all this. That it was not you who subscribed to it. I don’t subscribe to it either.
The idea of God is an interesting one in our times. Who could really God be? The Father and Christ and the Holy Spirit? The Holy Trinity? I think they gave up long time ago. Allah…? I don’t know much about Muslims. Buddha didn’t claim to be God so we leave him out. Jehovah? I think he doesn’t feel comfortable with the post either.
So, who can God be nowadays? Hubbard? Let me laugh! Could Hubbard take the post of God on this planet? Well, for Miscavige it could and it would serve him well as well as others. Gods are needed to stir the flock to a new direction where now is needed. So, the God idea can be entertained by the church for the years to come. And it might serve some special interests to have a new (custom made Scientology) religion on planet Earth. A religion that can make a lot of money and can herd the flock once again. And it looks like the flock can be well herded this time with all the tools and their misuse with Black Dianetics (O/Ws files, PC data, disconnection, annihilation of the 2nd dynamic for the Sea Org members, pay your taxes or you can’t go up the Bridge etc. etc.). That “Technology” serves the status quo really good now.
Well, for me the post of God is really vacant. I imagined a cartoon I wanted to draw where Earth projects a huge neon sign into dark space saying:
A new God is needed. Post is vacant. Only serious offers, please.
We can see this everywhere.
T.O. we have a long ways to go but we shouldn’t for petty ARC breaks spoil this chance. This is a serious blog. There is a lot of things discussed here. We have to preserve the fundamentals. We don’t need to play it smart on those too. We cannot afford to do this as the church does for their own reasons. The fundamentals are not there to confine one’s space. Such crap as Scientology is a “monotheistic religion” puts an end to the seriousness of this blog and its readers. Unless there is other intentions which are not plain to be served which I don’t want to believe. But believe me, those who wanted Scientology to end as it ended don’t want it to flourish in the Indie field either. They are going to do whatever they can to stop it or maim it or put curves in it.
So, let’s preserve the fundamentals. Scientology is a philosophy and it can best serve Man in these difficult times to re-aquaint himself with his true nature. That’s all it does. All the rest are added inapplicables and should be neglected, thrown out and suppressed as they are suppressive elements themselves.
And one other thing as to the God idea. The only God that I could possibly accept would be an impersonal god. No person is fit enough for the post (joking aside). The only Trinity I could respect is that of Ethics – Tech – Admin. Name them God, Son and the Holy Spirit if you want to sound more ecclesiastical. The new broad vistas that are offered to Man as potential knowledge through the Tech are incompatible with the idea of God as the identity it has been promoted on planet Earth all this time.
THE CERTAINTY THAT SCIENTOLOGY GIVES TO MAN AS TO HIS/HER SPIRITUAL NATURE AND THAT OF OTHERS IS THE BED ROCK FOR THE EVOLUTION OF A NEW SOCIETY IN THE FUTURE OF THIS PLANET. A SOCIETY WHICH IS WELL AWARE OF THE PHENOMENA OF LIFE AS TO WHAT THEY REALLY ARE.
This is killing their “gods” and creating a new phenomenon on planet Earth. The awakening of Man. This is not wanted, don’t you see? Why was Hubbard fought so relentlessly and is still fought to this very moment on this very blog and thousands of others? Because he was who he was or because he did what he did? It’s the latter that counts. It’s the latter that is dangerous and spread across the planet. It’s the latter that is our legacy (if one can dig that word if they have children to raise and care about others and the planet, really) that we have to preserve. All the rest as I said are efforts of the ignorant, the over ambitious and the evil guys to suppress that knowledge for Mankind.
alanzo: And even for those on whom standard Scientology worked, it only worked some of the time – usually in the first few sessions. And much of that population has continued to “chase the dragon” of those first wins ever since – never noticing that Scientology stopped working for them long ago.
This is true for me too .. my first auditing (objectives) did key me out with great wins .. but at basic keyed out a misuse of ethics against me .. misuse of conditions, especially lower conditions .. PTS / SP asignment etc.
All my later auditing did nothing .. see end of this thread for more detail ..
Thanks for your comments.
Just had a revealing experience;, as a kid I used to have a loss at any summer summerhollidays as all my friends went into vacation at the sea and i never went there. I used to dream about it in beautiful colours and had this big wish to enjoy some vacations at the mediterran sea.
As a Scientologist I just inavlidated and supressed those wishes and was very cool to myself meaning I had seen so many seas in all my lifes and it didn’t help and I was 100% certain I don’t need vacations or the sea as I’d billions of years of vacations.
What a fool I was.
I took 2 weeks of vacation with our grandchildren at the mediterran Sea. When I saw how the kids were fully enjoying it and were happy the
whole day and never wanted to go to bed I realized what I have missed. I had tears in my eyes and enjoyed any moment to the fullest . It was so beautiful and I’d huge wins on it.
What I learned is that it is of no importance to me if life is static, an awareness or whatever words or technical explanations there are for it. What I learned is life is beautiful !
alanzo: And even for those on whom standard Scientology worked, it only worked some of the time – usually in the first few sessions. And much of that population has continued to “chase the dragon” of those first wins ever since – never noticing that Scientology stopped working for them long ago.
This is true for me too .. my first auditing (objectives) did key me out with great wins .. but at basic keyed out a misuse of ethics against me .. misuse of conditions, especially lower conditions .. PTS / SP asignment etc.
All my later auditing did nothing .. see end of this thread for more detail ..
My experience is after the objectives, that I had to mock-up pictures under the direction of the auditor and especially the e-meter .. I have tried it, but it made never real sense to me .. I mean I could pick up any possible picture from everywhere out of the universe .. if you are sensible enough, you are able to pick up millions of pictures at once .. basically good, because you have then a lot understanding and awareness in this moment .. the failure with my auditing became of the game that I should pick out one picture, and should declare it as my case .. but nothing of it was my case, but I had to handle it then this way .. it did not really work .. it resulted in 1000 hours repairing repairs .. before I did quit .. alanzo seems right with “chase the dragon” .. but unfortunately I myself was the dragon .. it was me who pulled all these pictures in .. I realised that on my DCSI (basically a good cognition on my way) but the church did not accept it ..
Later on my way I found out that we did run me all the time on ARCX .. but is is something which keyed out completely on my objectives .. it means that scientology did help me very good once in the old days, but then caved me in about pictures .. I myself do not think in pictures .. having a picture has no power about me .. it is my own power to have one ..
If Scientologist use it in Pakistan, they will get their head back on a platter.
I must say if there was ever a reference I read by Hubbard that really violated my reality, it was the reference that OT’s could not survive alone.Seriously? You are going to make OT’s and then convince them they are needy mother f’kers?
That was the casiest mumbo jumbo computation, that invalidated everything he ever wrote wrote before that, and was a direct suggestion to “cluster up”.
Then you know, you get up to solo and what is the message? You can not survive when you cluster up.
Yes, I needed Hubbard to be where I am now. I will never ever discount that need. Never.
Did I need my auditors? Yes. I was needy. I needed them. I was like a drug addict moving up the bridge. I needed everyone that helped me. I admit it. They helped me, I will never deny it or deny them.
Did I need this blog. Yes, I admit it. Did I need these conversations? yes, I needed that.
Will I not survive alone? That has never been a fear for me. Do I have a fear of being a cell? Hell no. That wasn’t my item. Do I have any fears? Yes, two. But these are fears I have for others, not myself.
But this is my thing for Hubbard, I do not think he could have managed to put out the good things he did, if he honestly did not care about other people. I do think it was his purpose to help. And I think that because I was helped.
And it is like having a parent that kind of fucked up. Some really mean to. And some just did their best.
I think he did his best. And I think he loved. For me, that is good enough. So I can step over some of the things that were not cool, and face them, and it is not an issue for me.
And I think Marty has this same understanding. He is just being rational about sorting out the estate left behind.
Why is that so wrong? What the fuck is up with that?
Trying to form a perfect organization based on flaws in LRH technology of course will not work, Because of this, the church always misses it’s targets and winds up attacking the true sources of its future. At the top of this church is David Miscavige (currently) who is advertised to be “the mostly highly trained competent OT and auditor on the planet” by the members of his group “or else” their membership is terminated. I believe it is best to apply what works and disregard those technologies that don’t. MOST of LRH’s writings can be considered technically correct or people such as you and I would not have benefited from them to this day. But MUCH of what LRH wrote is like a re-do of a trial and error correction he was working on and never quite finished. The Purification Rundown is one such example. 🙂
And the problem I have with David Miscavige, is that that guy can not love. And I think that is a serious fucking outpoint. Like, a major red flag.
Well anyway, this is the best of my love.
Johannes Guttenberg is famous the world over. LRH, not so much. The printing press has opened up a world of discovery and learning for mankind and delivered more folks from ignorance and control than LRH and scientology ever did, would or could. For many here, scientology was and is the center of gravity. Those blinders will in time, hopefully, fall off.
Nevertheless, this “assignment” is the one that is overtaken with every new therapy before it is accepted in mainstream medicine. That is how we discard what does not work and keep what works.
It is far from impossible. The only thing it requires is accurate book keeping.
I wonder why every single proponent of alternative therapies always protests that this is too difficult for them, or that they have “no time” for this when it is truly vital information to know whether something works and therefore if it is pertinent to continue to offer it.
Friend wrote:
“Later on my way I found out that we did run me all the time on ARCX .. but is is something which keyed out completely on my objectives .. it means that scientology did help me very good once in the old days, but then caved me in about pictures .. I myself do not think in pictures .. having a picture has no power about me .. it is my own power to have one ..”
Yes. I believe that this is the nature of trying to get Scientology to keep working for you after a few wins at the beginning: you keep trying to fit your unique individuality into their fixed ideological paradigm.
You keep having to “mock up” their engrams, secondaries and locks, their ARC Breaks, and their missed withholds of nothing.
I too had a big win on objectives. But on reflection many years later (while still a Scientologist) I realized that the cog I voiced as part of that big “release” was an exact re-statement of something that the mission holder had told me in a conversation a few days before.
After hours of touching my leg and then touching the wall, I finally burst out with this tearful cog that “I’m just dramatizing my reactive mind!”. The session was ended, VGI’s all around, Success story thanking Ron and everyone at the mission, etc.
Really. I have found that the application of Scientology just begets more Scientology. It doesn’t reveal anything to yourself about who you really are.
Alanzo
” But personally I have never found anything that speeds up the process like Scientology.”
Great wise fool. Glad for you. I got things out of Scientology. I was one for 11 years.
So tell me, how long did you experience other paths to conclude that there is nothing better?
This was posted today on Tony Ortega’s blog:
International experts meet in London to discuss “UNDUE INFLUENCE” of extremist groups
London
A group of international experts will come together in London on the weekend of August 22-24, 2014 to address some of the major concerns relating to the undue influence of extremist groups and cults. Scientology, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Islamic extremists are just some of the groups that will be considered.
These groups operate using “undue Influence”
Undue influence is any act of persuasion that overcomes the free will and judgment of another person. People can be unduly influenced by urgent warnings, flattery, trickery, coercion and deception. In a court of law, “undue influence” is a legal term that applies when individuals or organizations take advantage of their position of power over other persons or groups.
http://aawa.co/blog/international-experts-meet-in-london-to-discuss-undue-influence-of-extremist-groups/#more-4512
Asking if you’ve read books is a very simple thing Marildi. And you simple now just avoided my post about your propensity to be rude in your responses to me. That is very simple. You accused Marty of something and I am saying you do the same thing that you accused Marty of doing.
Respond to that.
Or nothing faster as you just said?
The desire to know. 🙂
That is the fundamental of all fundamentals.
By the way, here’s a book I’m very interested in reading once it is released.
It’s by a guy, Sam Harris, who may not be everyone’s cup of tea because he has been marketed as one of the “New Atheists”, along with Richard Dawkins and others.
But I have found his work to be very different than these other guys who seem to be atheists because of Catholic abuses. These other guys seem to know nothing about philosophy and religion beyond Catholic abuse and are simply railing against all religion because… CATHOLICS!
Sam Harris is different in my opinion. He has a BA in philosophy from Stanford and a Ph.D in cognitive neuroscience from UCLA. And he is a practicing Buddhist.
His next book is called “Waking Up: A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion”.
I have not read it – it’s not out yet. Sam Harris is not my new L Ron Hubbard, he’s just a writer whose ideas I find stimulative for my own thought.
Check it out:
Alanzo
LRH Tech needs to be cleaned up and consolidated. The first big improvment would be replacing the E-meter by mindfulness. Here is how to correctly handle secondaries.
.
There is of course that sneaky factor that on some people almost anything will work. I have seen this in my coaching – give just about ANY exercise to a certain person and they will benefit from it. An no, I am not talking about illusory gains, but real, measurable gain from doing almost any task. And this is another reason those anecdotal evidences are dicey.
“I must say if there was ever a reference I read by Hubbard that really violated my reality, it was the reference that OT’s could not survive alone.Seriously? You are going to make OT’s and then convince them they are needy mother f’kers?”
That is a very good outpoint to contemplate on. 🙂
Also undue influence is one of the the five basic things that can legally void a contract.
Alanzo
The basic assumption in Dianetics is that preclear’s bank is greater than his analytical mind.
That is not so. It is simply a problem of working out the proper gradient for helping a preclear. One has to count on his analytical mind to pull him up.
That gradient is being worked upon here.
http://vinaire.me/khtk_minfulness/
.
🙂 Forget that one, that advertisement- propaganda would not give you which you already have 🙂 and those who advertise doing ‘’look how wise I am’’ because I am too one of the herd and in the valance of the great: Appearances will not give one wisdom but false belief: if I do all the song and dance and visit the holy place, walk in the foot-steps, I talk-repeat all the wise word than I to have attained the state. Hehehe… OT Levels in different form.
Meditation leads into a dead end, meditations end result will hold that person in that state and that state is not the state of enlightenment because enlightenment is not a state.
To attain total freedom with that: one loses all: the self, the I, the valances melt away, the fear vanished, life as one believed what it was is no more, the attained emptiness which replaces life-mest encompasses all yet remain empty that is intangible: Infinite.
Ron wrote:
“Sorry, Al, standardscientology hasn’t been delivered in orgs for many, many years.”
Think about this is regard to your position here:
The No True Scotsman logical Fallacy.
The use of the term was advanced by British philosopher Antony Flew:
Is your assertion that “standardscientology hasn’t been delivered in orgs for many, many years.” an example of the No True Scotsman Fallacy?
I think it is. You believe that “Scientology works 100% of the time when correctly applied” but when you allow yourself to see the huge numbers of people for whom Scientology did not work in your own experience, you say it was not “true Scientology” that they were getting in orgs and missions because they have not delivered it there “for many, many years.”
You can use this No True Scotsman Fallacy to look away from so much evidence that even you have observed for yourself. That’s a violation of “Personal Integrity”.
From now on, watch to see if I or other critics of Scientology use the No True Scotsman Fallacy. Then look to see if you can find it being used among other Scientologists.
The “No True Scotsman Fallacy”.
Now you know about it, and you can never un-know about it.
Alanzo
Oh Mark but if those losers would start and pull them self out of the shit they believe they are in ..ohhhh with that they would need to give up feeling sorry for self and the sweet sympathy would not be pouring in like molten lava! And guess what.. Most blog would close up because those who audit regularly would not be in posting but be in sessions. Different Blogs would open up like mine and people would be posting their wins, their cognitions like I do. After 41 years I still find material and have daily sessions, mind you by now what ever comes blows by inspections but before I have achieved that I have spent much as 10 hours in session, daily! Auditing, being in session takes more than these complainers have… and keep it in perspective some of the complainers complain they are spreading Black PR because they are in the valance of SP and their job is to destroy everything good. Best to you. E.
Which is senior —- Ethics–Tech–Admin or a Static?
If it is a Static then you have a God. If you don’t think it is a Static, then you are a squirrel.
Please see
*predict, It’s a line from the clip.
Thank you
Theo, you are good in justifying like most Scientologists. Try convincing Pakistanis of your thoughts about wogs.
No wonder Scientology is making no progress in most of the world because it looks down upon majority of its population. A Scientologist is very arrogant like his founder. It is just an American phenomenon.
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Scientology is an American pheomenon similar to the one unfolding in Ferguson. The arrogance and illogic of it is deafening.
.
One may say that Scientology can only grow incestuously.
I seriously think, Marildi, that you need to improve your communication skills rather than blaming others.
Mindfulness might help. 🙂
________________________________
A Wise Fool, you gave me a good idea. I shall now put together a mindfulness version of “Prep checking” and add it to my Buddhist/KHTK arsenal here:
Marty, what about the bigger, bigger picture?The cult discussion is just a diversion from the huge multi billion-dollar, no-profit tax fraud scheme that’s going on right now? Accomplished by way of real estate transactions with entities owned by parishioners? Non-profits popping in and out of counties all over. Inflated price purchases from the church to the entity as a way of transferring wealth from non-profit to profit. By compartmentalizing things it would be easy to have very few people really knowing the real deal. Fairly brilliant and diabolical and everyone pays.
Don’t you think that it is possible that Hubbard himself was hypnotized…. and he was part of a contagion of aberration?
Valkov, have you been declared an SP yet?
I wonder how Hubbard’s childhood was. He must have been very neglected by his family. Poor thing!
There is no absolute thetan or spirituality.
Mark.. your own post gives the answer why short cuts, fast stable case gains should not be given to anyone.
Each person when they are ready, have to walk their own path and learn why they have created what they are experiencing and what are the reason they have kept every experience they ever had.
The understanding which comes from analysis has vital importance and the understanding gives that unchanging state.
What would happen if one of those complainers would be given something they have not understood?
They were given that and look what has happened to them!
and I am delighted inform you that Magic Wand dont exist at the present time on Earth..
Right:) concepts of anything are simply concepts.
But I would be delighted if you would tell me how you have come to the conclusion… but please no quotation, but explain your experience the cognition it self. looking forward to read that! 🙂
🙂 just had a thought, next Hallowing go out with your grand son dressed as Buddhist you might get more goodies! dont forget to sprinkle flower petals on the door steps you have knocked on! and be humble for heavens sake!
Yes. I imagine we have the British Emperialists to thank for that, in INdia too. But Pakistan is Islamic to boot, isn’t that a big factor? “Allah is a jealous God”….
Here’s the “short article” link that was supposed to be posted, rather than the Video of Khruschev. It’s about the Chinese Communist Revolution of 1949:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Communist_Revolution
Who, do you think, coined the word WOG? It was not LRH. LRH simply liked that connotation and used it.
Theo should word clear the history of this word. He is too much fixated on LRH. He needs to broaden his knowledge.
Ron asked:
“What is the reason for attaining greater awareness and spiritual freedom?”
To seek to live with the truth.
It’s the purpose of all religious, spiritual, and philosophical pursuits.
This is also the purpose behind learning logic and critical thinking skills, too, even those beyond what Hubbard taught in Scientology.
It’s the purpose for closely listening to, inspecting and examining the arguments of people who do not agree with me, too, in order to make sure that I am looking at ALL the data there is when reasoning and making conclusions.
Seeking to live with the truth is the purpose that got me in to Scientology.
It’s the purpose that got me out of Scientology, too.
Alanzo
Marildi needs to word clear affinity, reality and communication. If she thinks she already knows it, she is simply being glib. She can’t apply these concepts.
One doesn’t learn just by quoting. One only shows glibness.
________________________________
In my opinion, such people are either using mindfulness (seeing things as they are) as their basis, or they are hypnotized.
I can run any Scientology process using mindfulness.
.
Thanks FOTF. That is a good list. I would point out that it fits almsost to a “T” all the military basic traings, Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, as well as organizations like college fraternities. Also specialized professions like Police have many of those elements. Guess who’s running our country and keeping things “in order” here in the USA as well as in other countries?
I think many people underestimate th edegree tpo which they are controlled by cultural and societal factors and influences. “My country right or wrong….”
Vinnie mentioned Pakistan. A virtual military dictatorship, with religious elements. Unlike some other countries, the religious elements do not have quite the political power, but have cultural power aplenty.
Are you referring to wogs or to Scientologists?
so what is your reply? or the above statement was just a parroted learned second-hand something which you have thought sounded ”smart” therefore was worth to say in order to impress others?
I am sure that Magic Wand does exist in your universe, Elizabeth.
and you are????????
The simple answer is that standard scientology hasn’t been delivered in orgs for many, many years is that such a thing does not exist.
It was a wishful thinking from the start just like Clear of Dianetics was a wishful thinking.
It is Hubbard getting excited by his idea and jumping the gun.
I’m sorry, but that is so not true. There are virtually no psychotherapies that are scientifically validated to work. And read Al’s statement again – there is no way that, for example, psychiatry could accomplish th etask. how in th eworld would they track down EVERYONE who ever had psychiatric therapy? Many of those people are dead of old age by now as well as other causes. Some of their their psychiatrists are too, Others would not be able to be located. It would be like asking for a all-inclusive study of everyone who ever did Buddhist meditation, going back 2,500 years. How in the world would that data be collected? It’s an absurd idea.
I am impressed by how Elizabeth is advertising her personally invented procedure.
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Chris 🙂 🙂 🙂 just read your win… fantastic.. I am thrilled that you are on the Path of Self-discovery and having realizations… enjoy the adventure!
Elizabeth, solo auditor.
do keep it in mind that most blogger thrive on negative and the posters haven’t the clue what is ”winning’ means, so ack-ing your wins will not happen.
You are welcome to post your cognitions in my blog and I will put them up as HEAD Posts. endlesstringofpearls@gmail.com
This is nothing compared to the Federal Reserve scheme.
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Apply mindfulness, my dear.
Your invented procedure wouldn’t work here.
Vinaire, shame on you for pushing your bloody mindfulness on the person who is winning by doing what he wants to do and you are making him wrong for that.. !!!!!!!!
IF YOU WOULD HAVE ACHIEVED WHAT YOU ARE PUSSHING THAN YOU WOULD NOT INVALIDATE…EVALUATE OTHER PERSONS WINS!! GO WORK ON YOUR SELF!!! What is the hell matter with you? OHH, I know the MINDFULNESS HAS BACHFIRED not working!!
I don’t disagree that American society is often far from perfect, but if we’re goin to be putting “America” in the same breath with “arrogance” and “Illogic”, how about we take a look at India while we’re at it? Woud you like me to start?
Then why are you evaluating and invalidating, my dear?
Let me provide the correct link.
.
Once again you have drilled right through to the diamonds. Reading the thread thus far seems, for the most part, to have proved your points. I await your next post with bated breath – as does Norton.
Good advertising, Elizabeth! 🙂
I have no 110V to read all the comments but all I want to say is how lucky I feel reading this. Just damn lucky. We all are like the guys that found life rafts off the Titanic and made it back to dry land. I just may get the solar and inverter going so I can read it all 🙂
And Jane ~ you are beautiful. Thank you for your comments… wow 10 years? I’m thinking Marty and all have cut this down to 5….hoping anyway.
I very much care about his wins and reality… Very much in did.
I have come to the internet after solo auditing alone for 35 years and I to wanted to share my wins but my realities fallen on deaf ears.. more likely that happens because it has not been understood by the 99percent of bloggers who are in pity, blame, revenge, feeling sorry for self… and I than wanted to shout: hey gang look what it can be done… hehehe the disappointments too were handled in sessions.
Why I post? looking for Chrises and like him so I could cheer them on!
I have sent my ”written up wins” to over hundred different persons and most of them were auditors c/s’s and 2 has responded and only one has invited me to post that write up in her blog.
That auditor was Silvia Kusada, who by now has been out drummed by scientologist because having different beliefs-realities the majority of blamers have.
V … it is you who has twisted LRH’s work into a bundle of crap and pushing it as something workable . It is you who believe by doing that is smarter than LRH was..not me.. I dont clame some ones work as mine!
in mine alone.
USA was trying to spread its cult to the East. Look what it has accomplished now.
read it as you like
V… you have ignored my question by asking totally different questions, very typical of you.. it seems that you only can quote parrot the learned stuff and haven’t a though a reality which you have come by confrontation!
What a self-important blowhard!
Read Marty’s post again. Think about what he wrote.
Think about how you are parroting Hubbard in order to make a point.
Not your point…Hubbard’s point.
Over and over again.
You “duplicated” Hubbard and think you know something. When you encounter a different viewpoint you dig in your heels and reaffirm what you think you know by repeating what you read / heard from Hubbard.
You parrot Hubbard to keep yourself in Hubbard’s maw.
Just like Hubbard taught you.
I don’t see where “Ron” the commenter said this anywhere in his post: “You believe that “Scientology works 100% of the time when correctly applied……” That is an issue apart from whether or not “standard scientology” has been practiced in recent decades in the orgs. If it had been practiced consistently we migh thave some idea of whether or not it works 100%, 70% 30% 5% of the time or whatever. I believe he is right, that it has not been. The reason is, “standard scientology” is the province of a well trained Class VIII auditor. What percentage of ‘all auditors’ were actually trained up to ClassVIII? Certainly not that many overall. So manifestly, ‘standard tech’ was never uniformly in existence in the real world. Most of the auditing ever deliverd was delivered by less trained auditors; much of it actually by student auditors on co-audit on on their internships. When in the world do you think there was ever uniform practice of ‘standard tech’? There never has been.
Another factor was recently mentioned by Tom Martiniano on the Milestone Two blog. His recollection is that back in the days of the “hard TRs”, about 30% of those who started the old Comm Course actually completed it and went on to Academy training and became auditors of whatever Class – HSDC, Class IV, whatever.
Does that mean the Comm Course TRs ‘did not work’ for 70% of the students? You are in a big logical fallacy there, if that’s what you think it means.
But in general, you often exhibit some extreme confirmation bias. You have your ideas, and you look for anything you can use to confirm your prejudices and hypotheses. Because of that, the good posts you make are nullified in the minds of some readers by the obviously illogical ones. You, perhaps like LRH, are sometimes your own worst enemy. As I’ve said before, you are far better off posting about your actual experiences rather trying to generalize from them. Like Hubbard, you are a good raconteur. I’d stick more to that.
See my comment above to Al. You have a righ to your opinion, however th eonly ‘sceientific proff’ would be to study the results produce dby a bunch of Class VIII auditors, because ‘standard tech’ is supposedly the province of Class VIII auditors, abd there have never been that many Class VIIIs, and they have never been studied overall in terms of the results they were getting. That is what would have to be done, if you wanted to be at least somewhat ‘scientific’ about it. Until that’s done, anything you say about the existence or nonexistence of ‘standard tech’ auditing it seems to me to be a relatively unsupported opinion.
You guys have your opinions first, then you look for evidence to support them, but you don’t really look for evidence that might disprove ypur opinions. That’s not really science. That’s ‘confirmation bias’.
Right. Perhaps he was a ‘manchurian guru candidate’ programmed and sent in by the Marcabians? 🙂
Obviously LRH added his own definition of it, as he did with some other words.
V.. since you read my blog… but obviously you read into something which is only in your delusional mind, I never ever claim what I have been doing is something invented by me but LRH’s work is being used! so dont lie! dont twist! not Ok.
Thanks for the reference. Now, “free of me and Scientology” does not mean IMHO free to make Scientology look like a bad, bad thing. We have come to the point where “freedom” for some means denigrating the whole path which we did woke. If ones wants to take it to another level, let us have it. The Universe is here, open, free-dome indeed for someone to come in and do stuff. Let us have it then. But until then, the stable data IS Scientology.
It’s just a word used in another sense. Maybe in America or England has a very bad connotation. If he used “nigger” maybe it would sound weird to me. I didn’t know the word “wog”. So, what is so bad about it? That it refers to eastern people who are of a lower level, or what? Explain please.
you don’t know what you are talking about. You A=A=A just so easily. That’s not a way to think. Got to change that. You cannot just spit irrelevant and insulting thoughts of your’s upon scientologists.
Theo your logic does not jive with mine and (I am sorry to say) with reality. Not any one source can create a religion which then is considered mono-THEISTIC. Maybe you need to clear up what God would be in that case.
Well, that’s a good one. I wrote “Theo, your logic doesn’t jive…” Hahaha, maybe then Vinaire’s logic does jive with reality and mine doesn’t. Which would be that one source of a religion or a philosophy means necessarily the creation of a mono-theistic religion. It can’t be that ANY man could create a religion or a philosophy. He has to become a God to make such.
Chris ….
The cognition’s are like pearls.
Each one is born out of pain and suffering,
out of mystery, secrets, and darkness.
Yet how beautiful they are!
They can vary in momentarily importance before they vanish.
Yet they remain yours for ever in the form of invisible knowledge.
The basics are the rarest of all pearls, since only few exist!!!
Their value buy your freedom out of the MEST Universe.
For your future you have my best, my postulate,
One endless string of pearls of great beauty.
Elizabeth.
Baby grow up. It’s time to. Who’s disrespecting who? The “bubble”, baby, has made some men around here. So if you call it a bubble who is disrespecting who? I thought that we would have a more serious discussion on some things than calling Scientology a bubble. Unless you are referring to the church. But this differentiation has seized to be mentioned on purpose for some time now on this blog and this is what makes me angry. Now, that’s disrespect. If Marty had really gone out of the “bubble” he would not be mentioning even it’s jargon. I see he changed the thetan word into psyche. Well, that’s a progress.
Valkov wrote:
“It would be like asking for a all-inclusive study of everyone who ever did Buddhist meditation, going back 2,500 years. How in the world would that data be collected? It’s an absurd idea.”
All right, Valkov.
So you take the most extreme and unreal example you can possibly think of, and say “It’s an absurd idea”.
Are you saying that the idea of counting the misses, as well as the hits, is an absurd idea?
Or just studying everyone who has ever meditated for the last 2500 years to see if meditation works is an absurd idea?
Your all or nothing defeatism here is shining through. Maybe your application of “Personal Integrity” here is actually just your colossal confirmation bias.
Yes?
It is as if you are saying: “Even though Scientology works 100% of the time when correctly applied, you can’t ever really know what percentage of time standard Scientology actually works because you can’t study everyone who has ever gotten auditing. So, Scientology works 100% of the time when correctly applied!”
Or are you saying that: “There is a valid middle ground here where it is possible to use better reasoning skills in seeing the actual effectiveness of Scn by making sure to count the misses, and not just the hits.”?
One statement would be from Valkov: The Scientologist.
And the other one would be from Valkov: The Critical Thinker Who Always Seeks to Live With the Truth.
Which are you today, V?
Alanzo
Ladies and Gentlemen: behold the end phenomena of scientology.
TR’s are good. They work in real life. But when someone asks “Where did you learn to communicate like that or what are you into?” My original problem might have been stating the tech was learned at a corrupt place like the Church of Scientology of New York, which is one the worst, followed by ASHO FDN and Flag. So, other areas of self improvement can also help to guide people to the truth that when combined with what does work of LRH’s can boil down to a nice life of freedom. Without the “bars of an org prison” so to speak, getting in the way. 🙂 Hope that helps a bit.
yes, but I am not pushing my own invention!
and I will ignore it as usual!
you have put down some ones win.. and my dear, for that reason.. when I see you I will scalp you and that is a promise!
Which cult is that, and which “East” are you referring to? The “East” is a big place….. let’s be specific.
Valkov wrote:
“If it had been practiced consistently we migh thave some idea of whether or not it works 100%, 70% 30% 5% of the time or whatever. I believe he is right, that it has not been. The reason is, “standard scientology” is the province of a well trained Class VIII auditor. What percentage of ‘all auditors’ were actually trained up to ClassVIII? Certainly not that many overall. So manifestly, ‘standard tech’ was never uniformly in existence in the real world.”
This argument is so choice.
Standard tech only exists if it comes from a Class 8 auditor.
No one else in Scientology can deliver standard tech.
And not even all Class 8s can deliver standard tech, only well trained ones can!
So standard Scientology, under your reasoning, is actually an extremely rare thing in all of Scientology.
What about before there was a Class 8 course?
Was standard tech possible then?
Guess not!
Why would you think that Scientology was a workable subject at all if it was unable to be applied standardly in such a vast majority of cases?
And, by the way, do you have a reference from Ron where he admitted that standard tech can only be applied by a well trained Class 8 auditor and by no one else?
Can you see that you are changing your definition of standard tech to avoid having to face the farce of your argument?
I doubt it.
Alanzo
That is so straw man it isn’t funny! Simply becaus eI have never claimed that “scientology works 100% of the time when correctly applied”. In 4 years of posting, I have never claimed that, yet you keep misrepresenting what I have been saying, inspite of my obvious posts to the contrary. You, sit, are a devout and thorough LIAR. And if you lie about my position and beliefs, what else migh tyou be LYING about?
And YES of course the misses need to be counted right along with the hits, but yOU are th eone who postd the ansurd extreme formula of “counting ALL the outcomes of EVERYONE who has ever been audited”, as though you or any other human being or research organization is actually capable of doing that! Do I need to go back and find your quote? You posted just yesterday!
Enough already! Either oif you two could have Googled it and posted the definitions! According to this Wiki, both of you are ‘wogs’ in the traditional meaning of the word: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wog
And both of you fulfilled the LRH defintions too, by not bothering to look up and posts the defintions!
Now you can shake hands and unite in attacking me! 🙂
It is the concept of Statc.
And some might think this post is “advertsing” or “marketing” or “promoting” something…..
Silly people!
Valkov’s claim that standard tech only comes from a Class 8 – and not just any class 8 – but a well trained Class 8, is an example of “Moving The Goal Posts” Logical Fallacy.
It’s a trick actually.
Don’t be fooled by it.
“Moving the goalposts” is a logically fallacious argument in which evidence shows that standard Scientology actually works in a small minority of cases, so Valkov dismisses the evidence by changing the definition of standard Scientology so that it is impossible to pin down. He moves the goal posts: He makes standard Scientology so rare that no one could ever observe it to decide whether standard Scientology ever worked at all!
Then of course, he retains his certainty of his position that “Scientology works 100% of the time when correctly applied.”
Score!!
The only way to remain a Scientologist is to be fabien in this way. Have rationalizations and shifting goal posts and mercurial reasoning always at the ready, and you will never have to acknowledge or learn or confront anything at all!
Well done, Valkov.
Alanzo
And you are good in the following activity
.
You don’t get it.
🙂
Sure go ahead! India is not perfect.
But would work on you..[and if you are referring to the auditing technology ,than that is not my invention] !!!! you still have not answered my question. Problem with duplication? too many filters wont allow you reading my question!
Here Al, here is what you posted above, and even ‘bolded’ it:
“In order to correctly evaluate the results of Standard Scientology, you have to take the totality of everyone who has ever gotten auditing, and then you must count the misses (those for whom Scientology did NOT work) right along with the hits.”
This is like shouting that none of us will ever be able to correctly evaluate the results of scientology, because it is obviously impossible to “take the totality of evryone who has ever gotten auditing”. Many are GONE. They are dead, or dispersed, out of contact, no record of them in the first place, or whatever.
So when you state your conclusions with such certainty as you are wont to do, it’s a pretense at worst, or speculation at best. “Take th etotality”, indeed! Come on, get real!
Verbal tech!
Marty, I am glad you are letting these people display what they are. They are rude and unmannered. They are showing what the state of Scientology currently is.
________________________________
Theo, you need to read more. Pay attention to the following.
LOGIC 8: A datum can be evaluated only by a datum of comparable magnitude.
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Elizabeth, you are in violation of discussion policy. See point #5:
http://vinaire.me/2012/07/16/discussions-and-what-needs-to-be-avoided/
.
Elizabeth, you are evaluating and invalidating my wins.
“IF YOU WOULD HAVE ACHIEVED WHAT YOU ARE PUSSHING THAN YOU WOULD NOT INVALIDATE…EVALUATE OTHER PERSONS WINS!!
How am I doing compared to LRH? 🙂
Where does fit on the Grade Chart? After OT VIII?
You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
no my dear when I see you I wont scalp you… I will wave over you head my Magic Wand and make smart out of stupid you. go take a relaxing nap.. I dont want you to get a hart attack!
Υou amongst others here, constantly do the A=A=A thing. Scientology and printing cannot be compared as to their value. If it wasn’t for printing and Guttenberg (well, someone else would have done it, if he hadn’t) even Christianity wouldn’t be on the map. What are you comparing here? There is no center of gravity. Scientology is a workable tool. Many who dispute it, use it or will use it some day to analyse phenomena and confusions in life. It’s a method and not an end in itself. I see that kind of fanaticism in people like you who want to present even the Indies as people with blinders. Well, that kind of communication does not help except to create polarity and this is what this blog plays with now.
I think Scientology has value. It helped me as I have written in my story here.
But Scientology falls far short of its promises. It has also become very corrupted. Tech failures are covered up by harsh ethics. This was done by LRH himself.
Marty, Marty… are you talking about End Phenomena? Well, I would have explained to you the end phenomena while you were in Mgmt. Or was that another Marty? When as staff we couldn’t even study much less get auditing or get some attention on our 1st dynamic.
And then Marty when you are talking about end phenomena, don’t END the discussion (I mean we could never have any discussion anyway) by not having a reply button. The problem here Marty is that you let others speak on your behalf but you don’t confront the fact that you have to talk too. Yourself not via others and then say something about end phenomena with no reply button just to make the final statement and make an impression. What I did Marty in Scientology I did it by myself, studying by myself, unlike you up there on the org board dealing with the big shit and making it all shitty as you and David and the rest of you guys did. That’s now end phenomena. Come out and talk, big guy. Don’t just go in hiding. Let the conversation roll for once when you don’t like it. But no. You have been indoctrinated to cut comm and invalidate. That’s the process here. To invalidate those who don’t toe the party line.
If he was than it was by himself reciting his Affirmations to himself. Some kind of Neuro Linguistic Prorgramming like those cassette-tapes you could play to yourself in your sleep in the 80ties wich is in fact self-hypnosis. Well at least when you pressed on play yourself.
🙂 that depends on the persons reality! 🙂
Be more clear please, I haven’t a clue what you are inquiring about YOU STLL NOT ANSWERED MY QUESTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Obviously, LRH failed to word clear. 😉
________________________________
VALKOV: “I don’t see where “Ron” the commenter said this anywhere in his post: “You believe that “Scientology works 100% of the time when correctly applied……” “
What about KSW 1?
again.. I have no idea what you are referring to! answer my question PLEASE!
That is squirreling!
HEHEHEHE LOL HEHEHE LOL….and more hehehehehe when did I ever fallowed your policy? You still not answering my question!
I showed you the reference. I didn’t ask you to translate it, that is verbal tech.
VALKOV: “What percentage of ‘all auditors’ were actually trained up to ClassVIII? Certainly not that many overall. So manifestly, ‘standard tech’ was never uniformly in existence in the real world.”
In my opinion it is very difficult to make Class VIII auditors when there is no Standard Tech, but only a pretense of it.
Al, ‘standard tech’ was defined by LRH on the Class VIII course. Before the Class VIII course, there was no such thing as ‘standard tech’. That should be obvious from the lectures that are on the Class VIII course”.
Beam me up. Scotty!
And yes, I think the delivery of ‘standard tech’ has been a pretty rare thing in Scientology. That is not to say that even Book One auditors have not helped some people.
And I have not changed my definition of ‘standard tech’ from the very beginning! That’s your (foolish) ass-umption. Oops! Don’t know how that hyphen got in there. 🙂
Gee, it appaers you have been arguing with a ‘straw man’ for several years. And you can’t understand why you catch so much flack from me at times. As they would say in Transactional Analysis, you have been “putting someone else’s face on me and arguing with that.” That is ‘straw man’ in real life. You refute things I never said as though I did say them. And impute beliefs to me that I never expressed or held.
Alanzo, Valkov is simply apply the standard tech that he has learned, which may be summed up as “justifications.”
V.. dear. I have left the church in 82 because I did not wanted to fallow those rules after I have regained the ability to think for self and judge for self and you now want me to fallow some rules when we are playing verbal ball game? words fly free, words are cheap . To me few things hold value and one of them is cognitions, With mine you can mass with much as you like since no assumption no matter who’s they are will not change my reality, but I have no idea how others are on the same subject so I stand up for others.
I am sorry, but I have to say that all that I see coming from Scientologists on this board are justifications. It is impossible to discuss with them because they cannot apply mindfulness (see things as they are).
But it is interesting to point out outpoints in their justifications.
.
when you will answer my question after that we can continue. till than ..it has been a pleasure, and take that relaxant …. 🙂
Actually, these justifications are built into Scientology, like “all critics have overts.” These justifications are then hammered into Scientologists through issues like KSW 1.
These Scientologists are good at heart, but their ability to see things as they are is severly challenged.
Elizabeth, you don’t mention the volunteers. I didn’t say people go because they are ordered. And I am not coming from a place of blame. It is a mathematical issue, as in how things could add up in a better way.
“”Those blinders will in time, hopefully, fall off.””
I wonder why are you reading here and reading ? to deliver the above?
If you would not have that blinders on than you would have understood what LRH has done and how that works, the auditing side that is!
Alanzo, forgive Valkov for he does not know statistics.
.
There it is – you did it again:
Al posted – “Then of course, he retains his certainty of his position that “Scientology works 100% of the time when correctly applied.”
I never said that,, in fact I just got done posting that we will never know IF ‘standard tech works 100% of the time”(or any % of time, or WHAT % of the time), until we get some Class VIIIs in a long-term study and monitor them for their results. Class VIII C/Ses will also be needed.
As for ‘references’of LRH saying that, , there have been some posted right here on this thread, a couple of Class VIII course lectures, the YOutune interview withttha trained by LRH Class VIII lady, etc. LRH introduced the Class VIII course with a lecture that goes into it extensively, explaing how everything before, including the SHSBC, were a study of the ‘research track’ and he boiled it down to the simplicities of the Class VIII course because there really was no standard application going on and he was unappy about that. The Class VIII course was his attempt to bring the entire world of Scientology auditors and C/Ses “up to present time”(my words, not his that I know of. But that’s the sense I got from the lectures I’ve checked out.)
The only one who keeps moving goalposts around here is YOU. That’s th e’confirmation bias’. So you can keep operating on that, or you can check out th eClass VIII lectures and see for yourself. I have no doubt that if your confirmation bias is strong enough, you will be able to cherry-pick them to suit your own ends. However, my point stands, that ‘standard tech’ as I refer to it did not exist before the Class VIII course was put together.
Now you canmake of thatwhatever you want, you can be incredulous, you can make fun of me, you can ridicule me, BUT that is what I mean when I use to the term, not because I am a ClassVIII, or because I ‘believe’ it, but because I BELIEVE that IS what LRH said. And I believe it is what LRH said because I heard him say it in his lectures about it, or read the transcript of a lecture in which he said it.
There is a HUGE diffeence between saying he said something, and ‘believing” what he said. A difference you don’t seem to get, which doesn’t seem very bright of you.
Thanks for all your quotes, which shows ignorance IMO.
“You can’t be a wog and be a truly spiritual person. Those things don’t jive.” OMG! I won’t even comment on this except to say, it’s too crazy!
You’ll never get rich doing it the way you’re doing it! 🙂 And, how many KHTK delivery organizations have you got set up thus far? How many hundreds or thousands of hours of lecture have you got recorded? Come on, let’s not play that. You’ll just make yourself feel bad…..
I like generalizations because I am an SP.
For the Sea Org, that is very true. One can only marry another family member. Scientologists also do not like it if you marry outside of the Scientology family. You got this one right.
Can’t duplicate? 🙂
That is not ‘verbal tech’ according to LRH on the transcript of the lecture introducing the Class VIII course…..
“Off with his head!” said the Queen of Hearts….
Theo, is putting others down a part of Scientology, or is it just your thing?
LOL!
Oh belly laugh!
Valkov you have to be one of the funniest people I have ever conversed with on the Internet.
Did I misrepresent your argument that standard tech can only be applied by a certain type of Class 8?
Only a well trained Class 8?
Did I get all your weasel words right?
Alanzo
More standard scientology…
Well, I am trying. Little bit of promotion here and there is not bad. 🙂
You are acting like Theo. Rude and unmannered 🙂
Or, may be like LRH! It seems to be a valence thing.
hehehe he is lucky because he lives in florida and I in BC. but he is planning to come here in october and I am already sharpening the axe! 🙂 I be waiting at the airport! 🙂
Do you care for other people’s cognitions, or just yours?
The answer is within you. It is in your universe.
No use answering your question. You can’t duplicate anyway.
I know. It is your universe right?
The argument “standard tech can only be applied by a certain type of Class 8 – only a well trained Class 8″ contains weasel words that also help to move the goal posts.
The weasel words “well trained” are there so that if we find a disaster such as Lisa McPherson or Kyle Brennan or a Jeremy Perkins as coming from a Class 8, then we can say that well, obviously they weren’t a well trained Class 8!
Mercurial reasoning
Being fabien
Constantly moving the goal posts
It’s part and parcel of the “Being a Scientologist” Survival Kit!
Alanzo
Sorry dear Oracle mathematics is not my thing.. 2+2 always comes out differently 🙂 but I know that stable wins never can be affected and I know that from experience. There was times earlier on the Path that did not work that way and what the reasons were, why that has happened.
There must have been something in his genetic code that got him to do self-hypnosis.
I forgive him.
It’s his sense of humor, in addition to his ignorance of statistics, that wins me over every time.
Plus, I like his hat.
Alanzo
It is no use, Alanzo. I have tried. He has no way out but OT LXVII.
No, it can only be delivered by a poorly trained Class VIII .
Duh!
Isn’t that how it is in life? The best products and services can only be delivered by the most poorly trained people….. everybody knows that!
I bet that’s irrelevant here to post so you may not publish it but there is no reply buttons after your “answers” to me. That’s cutting comm and that’s… why don’t you confront me Marty and talk with reply option for me too?
I am sorry Marty but you are violating the comm formula big time as an “authority” on this blog.
Is there an earliest similar Marty? Maybe I could help you out remember that and finally run out this circuit of your’s, ARC Xing people who have spent quite some time in this journey on this blog, which by the way is a two sided (not a one sided) thing. Especially when every post of it has to do with Scientology and how bad now it all is.
How would describe his hat in the fewest number of words?
Well, Vin, when you have gathered the statistics on “everyone who ever received auditing”, please publish them and let us know. I won’t hold my breath, though. Can you still walk, though, after shooting these kind of footbullets?
Oh, so you don’t want to discuss it?
“Hippie Grandpa”
🙂 I love you too you old bald headed eagle you! 🙂 Sweetheart, when manner were thought in school I was absent so I have missed out on that.. You know where I was? I was sent to the railroad yard to collect the fallen coal from the tracks since my father was ill and my mothers wage were hardly enough to buy food with and I was the one who were told to go, My older sister 9 years old was not allowed to pick up heavy basket of coal and the younger was only 3 so I was 7 I could do such a chores. Have you seen a child wondering around the railroad yard in -20 bellow without gloves, in thin coat, frozen face and feet and numb hands? tears frozen on her face from pain but still going because she has know that coal was needed so her mother could cook some potatoes for dinner because we only had nothing more most of the time? So shut up about squirreling and answer my question! PS; it has taken years till my frozen toes stopped aching and itching!
that is your excuse because you dont know the answer.. thank you.
Well, Vin, when you have gathered the statistics on “everyone who ever received auditing”, please publish them and let us know.
You’re being a little literal here, don’t you think, Valkov?
Have you ever considered the Key to Life Course?
Alanzo
OH. I know the answer but you dont.. Parrots only know what they are thought!
“) love your compliment!
So, apparently you are thoroughly familiar withe content of the Class VIII course?
Obviously there is something LRH thought was ‘standard tech’, becuase he defined it and taught it on the Class VIII course.
What you posted has about as much logic as if I posted that your name can’t be “Vinaire” because there is no such name as “Vinaire”.
Oh! If you know it then aren’t you stupid to keep on insisting from me?
I doubt if you know anything outside of your universe.
That what I said, you are arguing something you have no clue about. These kind of problems you are struggling with are already resolved in the subject of statistics.
People outside of your universe are not that stupid.
I can’t discuss with a debater who wants to be right. Please word clear the difference between a debate and a discussion.
Valkov: “Now you can make of that whatever you want, you can be incredulous, you can make fun of me, you can ridicule me, BUT that is what I mean when I use to the term…”
I have learned that with certain posters a true and honest comm cycle isn’t possible. With some of those, I think it’s a matter of inability to duplicate and assimilate, even simple things sometimes. With others, their “misduplication” may be intentional.
Eventually, I learn from each which ones to avoid and not waste my time. And if they distance themselves from me, all to the good. Otherwise, I would have to do it myself! I would feel downgraded and embarrassed if they took my side.
However, I’m very glad that you have the energy and are astute enough to take apart their irrational comments.
If I don’t know the answer then why are you asking? Are all Scientologists that stupid?
You can still learn manners!
LOL that is a good one! Valkov what I am doing is sawing away the branch V is standing an.. I can always get to him 🙂 by now he is deeply rattled one had a double something and in the other a bottle of relaxant.. Any moment now.. any moment ! 🙂
I like that. 🙂
How many times do I have to post it, before you actually see it? RON wrote KSW. RON thought there was a ‘standard tech’. The obvious way to prove or disprove what RON thought is to do studies of the results Class VIIIs over some period of time. You know, collect ‘statistics’, since you brought that word up, of ‘hits and misses’ as Al said, THEN we would know the actual percentages of the effectiveness of ‘standard tech’.
But I suppose that would be too ‘scientific’ for you. (And for Al.) Y’all pay lip service to science, but actually indulge yourselves in ‘scientism’ and poor logic. When I don’t shut up, you think laughing will work? Guess again! I think a lot of people can see some of your illogic. And some can’t, because they share your confirmation biases.
Val..Someone posted a great list on the Bunker once and I can not find it.
There are several published lists. I am posting this one only because I had to choose between lists, youtube videos, etc. They were all pretty similar.
This checklist was be published in the new book, Take Back Your Life: Recovering from Cults and Abusive Relationships by Janja Lalich and Madeleine Tobias (Berkeley: Bay Tree Publishing, 2006). It was adapted from a checklist originally developed by Michael Langone.
…………………………………………….
1. The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
2. Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
3. Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
4. The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).
5. The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).
6. The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.
7. The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).
8. The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members’ participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).
9. The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
10. Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.
11. The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
12. The group is preoccupied with making money.
13. Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
14. Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
15. The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.
Nice to have a dialogue with you.
No, he may have picked “wog” up in Australia, where he had been, and added or expanded the defintion of it to what is in the tech dictionary.
Kettle, meet pot.
Yes indeedy. I am waiting for Ron’s Orgs to develop their Bridge up that high. I think right now they are only up to 48 or so.
“This checklist was be published in the new etc.”
“Should be was published “
Well I’m read the posts and links about those about those, and it’s obvious you are not telling the whole story.
It is interesting to see how some Scientologists use Scientology to hurt others.
________________________________
Yes Al, that is literally what you posted…..
This would appear to be ad hom, the last refuge of one who has already lost the arguemnt and doesn’t have the courage to admit he may have misspoken….
Marty Please cancel what I just wrote.. OMG FOTF2012 Already post this..sorry… xo baby
He is just like he claims LRH was. When the discussion doesn’t go his way, it’s because YOU are “too stupid” to understand what he is saying.
Typical brahmin. Off with his head Erszebet, as soon as you get the chance! Channel Attila!
The final point I was trying to make is that it is in a persons interest to learn and understand the history of civilization outside of LRH’s interpretation of it. If anyone does not want to, that’s their choice.
OMG I included this for Marty to post.. hahahah I just informed him to cancel it. Jeeze.. Thank you FOTF ! Great Check sheet!
So you are telling me that Hubbard squirreled! Oh my God!
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VALKOV: “RON thought there was a ‘standard tech’.”
This comes across to me as if RON was delusional.
Vin: “They are showing what the state of Scientology currently is.”
More like the state of mind of a True devoted or deluded Scientologist. I’m so happy for those of us who live in the real world.
This thread has been the most interesting, even exciting I’ve seen in a long while! I especially like the word you used, false “infotainment”.
Bravo, to all who have and are enlightening us here.
like you don’t wan to be right?
At least I try to actually have a comm cycle – with intention to communicate – as per the communication formula.
Marildi, have you read and duplicated the discussion policy yet?
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Scientology is not like psychiatry where it takes years to make a Psychiatrist. LRH obvioulsly ran into trouble in training Class VIII since so few were produced.
Theo, as far as I know, it is WordPress and not Marty that is “cutting your comm”, in the sense that you have to go back ‘upstream’ in any subthread and find the last comment that has a reply button, and use that one. It may be th etheme, or maybe th eseetings on his blog, but that appears to be how it works for me. The email notifications help a lot. Without them responding to comments gets unwieldy fast.
Well then how about OT XLVII.
Val.. .. I come from a strong military background. Both my parents were Marines. I absolutely disagree with you. Many have given their lives so that we can live in freedom.
Scientology is a cult. Oh well, we won’t agree. But just wanted you to know that I am very Patriotic. The National Anthem still gives me goosebumps.
Ha! I knew it. 🙂
________________________________
🙂 And to think, Marty, you were probably once a lot like me. I am standing at the mouth to the ‘scientology tunnel’, while you have gone through it and are out the other end.
So ‘poor me’, I often fail to understand or fail to see what you see. But that is only natural. Whether that applies to marildi, I don’t really know.
Theo: “I am sorry Marty but you are violating the comm formula big time as an “authority” on this blog.”
Hey Theo, do you have a blog open to everyone? I’d sure like to come by and wrangle with ya sometime.
Thank you.
Then what is the reason for critics being there?
If you don’t see the ‘cultish’ elements in military ‘boot camp’ (basic training), I suggest you take another look. Sleep deprivation, close order drill, cleaning the bathroom with a toothbrush, unquestioning obedience of your drill sargeant and other superior officers etc etc. There are to my eye obvious cultish elements.
That has nothing to do with the motives and extreme service military personnel have done for the country. It is a comment on the military setting itself. Unfortunately a military appears to be necessary to survive in this world as it exists. That doesn’t mean our leaders always use the military power they control, to the best ends or for the best of reasons.
OK, that is a tangent, but it is an important one, because it is an example of org staff not getting trained or processed as they were promised to be.
Theo – you are completely trapped by the Solipsism that Hubbard taught you to accept.
Fiddle around forever looking for “Standard” or jumped back onto the “Latest Golden Age of Whatever”…you are arguing for marketing slogans as if they have some deep philosophical meaning.
You’ve been tricked…and you are defending the person who trick you.
Valkov is right, Theo. There are only a certain number of “levels” or “tiers” in any sub-thread, and after that no more reply buttons are given. You can handle it the way Val says, if you need to, but doing it that way won’t show which comment you are actually replying to and that isn’t always clear from the reply itself.
The other thing you can do is to click on the reply button at the bottom of the email notification of the post you want to reply to. Also, at the top of the notification, it says “Respond to this comment by replying above this line,” but I’ve never tried it that way.
counting the days till October.. 🙂 By the way I might be too stupid to understand what he means..:) how lucky I can get! Attila dont have to be channelled, I had that life recalled in sessions.. all of it.. needed confront to face that life cycle.. and lots of ARCb’s, O/W’ handling.. But not all was as the loser have written it in the history books. One thing people who have read the History written by the Romans did not realized that was the way of life for all who lived in that period.
Theo.. You didn’t define in any way what a wog is. You just copied and pasted Hubbard’s quotes.
If I asked you for the definition of ice cream.
and your responded , ” Ice cream is delicious. ” That is not a definition it is a word used in a sentence.
Please don’t insult our intelligence.
Yes, I know. That is the perfect expression of your confirmation bias, your idee fixe’. You believe RON was delusional therefore anything you don’t get or disagree with or is not real to you, you dismiss as “delusional”. That is your ‘filter’. Bu theyonly way to test hat is to do controlled studies. For some reason you equate RON’s beliefs with my beliefs, when they are not necessarily the same at all. I can post what RON believed or what RON said, without agreeing or believing those things myself. That is what you and Al don’t seem to get. Thus you act like Teedle Dum and Tweedle Dee in response to some of my posts. It happens when something I say triggers a filter in you. I see a mechanical action of the Code of Honor at work. Although I think Al’s reasons and responses are somewhat different from yours
My point is, use science to test whether or not 1. There is something rightly called ‘standard tech’ of auditing or not, and 2. it has to involve Class VIIIs because it is on the Class VIII course that the ‘standard tech’ of auditing is defined. Not according to me. According to RON.
Don’t worry. it does no harm to have the list posted twice. There are plenty of people commenting here who are wasting waaaay more bandwidth. I suppose I am one of them. 🙂
Theo – it must be nice to have such “certainty” on all matters large and small.
If you had any idea what ACTUAL impression you are making on educated people, versus the impression YOU THINK you are making, you would be embarrassed.
But that will come later, after you have looked outside of the tiny Hubbard box of viewpoints, which you think holds the entire universe of wisdom.
Valkov, harder are the lessons one gains more.. to be beautiful, flattering about in saintly manner and confronting that will not give as much gains as the confrontation of the heavy life in where every day marked by death , suffering, hunger, and where every day one had to fight for survival. every ones track is littered by incidents like that, but it is up to each individual if they are ready to confront such incidents. after all sainthood too is only a valance and when one finally realises what is the MEST U. about by that being Attila, or Jesus[ I dont claim that valance] really dont make any difference.. I have been holy, but that life have held more O/W’s than being Attila.
Not at all. If I were to comment, I would point out that languages evolve. Definitions are added and dropped. New words are invented and adopted into dictionaries. Change is the norm.
For example, on writing, people are now taught not to use two spaces after a period. I just discovered this. And some of the people pushing that practice of using just one space are really snotty about how wrong it is to use two spaces! But when I learned to type in high school, over 50 years
ago, I was taught to use to spaces and would be marked down if I used just one. A dictinary of 50 years age would not be the same as one published this year, either.
Alanzo
Agree with you on the above. I would add that comparing Scientology’s promised results as described in Hubbard’s books and tapes, to the actual results, as evidenced by the thousands of people who have fled and denounced the organization and it’s practices, one is left with unfulfilled marketing slogans and weak explanations for why those slogans have not materialized into across-the-board positive tangible outcomes.
All the explanations in the world do not add up to a workable tech.
In fact those explanations for failure are evidence of great unworkability and appear as self-serving BS offered as excuses.
The hunt for “Standard Tech” is a fools errand and is itself perhaps the greatest excuse for failure that Hubbard ever issued.
woof… woof… woof well, I guess not all of us so prim and proper, we do not belong to the ”Knowing it all Set”’
oh.. well, but I would like to point it out to you Marildi with that post you have shown your colors=items when those would be taken into session could bring you lots of wins in the form of different realities..
V….”’severly challenged.”” are you talking about you-self here, because that sounds just like you…. oh yes… that is you…
V 🙂 are you collecting you thought?
I have no idea as far as specifics go.
But obviously, they do not see the results promised by Scientology.
Oh I have those.. do I ever, but I only used that valance when it is needed.
Mindfulness 2: Observe without Assuming
Reference: The 12 Aspects of Mindfulness
Mindfulness provides the discipline for looking and contemplation.
You may do this exercise while sipping coffee in a café, or strolling along a river. You may even find a place where you can sit comfortably for a while without being disturbed. Then patiently observe the world go by.
As you look do not assume anything. It is easy to assume what one normally expects to be there. For example, if you are looking at the profile of a person, you see only one ear, but you may take it for granted that the person has two ears. Separate the actual perception from the ideas of what should be there.
.
MINDFULNESS 2: Observe things as they are, without assuming anything.
1. Observe as usual. Notice the environment and other people.
2. Start applying the aspects of mindfulness that you have learned so far.
3. As you observe, see if there are any assumptions that are hanging around. Spot them as they come up.
4. Don’t suppress them. Simply become aware of them, and then move on.
5. As you observe, see if the actual perceptions are different from the ideas in the mind. Notice such differences one by one.
Example: You are looking at the profile of a person. You see only one ear. The mind tells you that he is supposed to have two ears. Notice that you cannot verify what the mind is telling you. Taking for granted that the person has two ears, would be an assumption.
6. Don’t suppress them. Simply become aware of them, and then move on.
7. As you observe, see if you are being judgmental about some situation. Notice any preconceived ideas present one by one.
Example: You may look at a person of certain sex, color, profession or cultural background with certain preconceived ideas. Separate the actual perception from the ideas contained in the mind.
8. Don’t suppress them. Simply become aware of them, and then move on.
9. As you observe, see if there is something that does not make sense. Notice if your own ideas are contributing to that inconsistency.
10. Don’t suppress them. Simply become aware of them, and then move on.
11. Expand your span of attention and let the perceptions pour in.
12. Let the realizations present themselves to you without you making any effort.
.
Develop this exercise to a point where you are doing it naturally even while interacting socially with others. Keep observing patiently without assuming anything. Keep actual perception separate from the ideas contained in your mind. Many things may come up naturally to be scrutinized. Simply observe them and become aware of them without effort.
.
.
The purpose of a discussion is to learn by exchanging viewpoints. One uses experience and experimentation to obtain data and then brings it to the table to be discussed.
The participants in a discussion focus on the subject and not on each other. A discussion is not a debate where one is in a contest to win argument against others. There is no need for sophistry. In a discussion there are no opponents. All participants are on the same side. On the other side may just be ignorance. In a discussion each participant’s viewpoint is bound to change and evolve as he/she learns from the data pooled together by all.
Thus, a discussion is a cooperative effort. There is no reason to censor any data in a discussion. The data simply needs to be examined in detail.
>
Joe – what you are describing as an auditing outcome “realizations and a happier person” are NOT what are described as the results obtainable from Scientology and Dianetics, per the actual written and spoken words of Hubbard.
In fact Hubbard OPENLY MOCKS such an outcome in several rants, including the “little church in the vale” reference where he criticizes Christianity for making people “feel better.”
Hubbard made incredible enormous claims, in writing, for both Dianetics and Scientology.
Among those claims were eidetic memory for Clears and Total Cause over Life for OT’s, in a thetan exterior condition. Those results have NEVER been demonstrated by one person…ever…in the entire history of Scientology.
In fact, Hubbard came up with the whole “parlor tricks” excuse to mock people who asked for a demonstration of the promised results that Hubbard had made…in writing.
People normally don’t pay $500,000 to “feel better.” If Scientology promised only that people would “feel better” after spending $500,000 do you think many would get involved and spend 30 years trying to “go OT?”
Hubbard promised results in Book One..DMSMH…that have NEVER been delivered. He then spent the rest of his life failing to deliver those promised results….and developed his own private terrorist organization (the Guardian’s Office) to attack those that called Hubbard out for his failure to deliver.
That is not a very valuable tech.
It is a hoax at best…and one that allowed Hubbard to accumulate vast wealth in his lifetime while thousands of others suffered dreadful deprivation in the Sea Org and elsewhere forwarding false hopes that Hubbard had promised were real.
Please stop justifying. There is nothing wrong with “feeling good” but that is not what Hubbard promised.
That was Alanzo, my brother, by the way, who used that word “infotainment”. Sometimes it is difficult to tell the difference between us; just like it is very difficult to tell the difference between Valkov and Marildi.
>
“Among those claims were eidetic memory for Clears and Total Cause over Life for OT’s, in a thetan exterior condition. Those results have NEVER been demonstrated by one person…ever…in the entire history of Scientology”
Have you met all those persons who have used the auditing technology outside of the church? if you haven’t than you cant say that the above is true or not.
Not likely you would recognise such a reality which is outside of human beliefs. Abilities gained by confrontation of the MEST are not parlor tricks. Beside you ASSUME only ASSUME.
🙂
>
Really? Have you read the Discussion Policy yet? It is not like Messiah or Madman. Besides it is just one page.
>
Val, I suspect that neither you nor I will come out of “the scientology tunnel” in such negative ways as many have, especially the ones who are negative in the extreme. Some of us have attempted to see and evaluate the whole elephant, not just isolated pieces of it viewed through misperceptions and self projections. And to differentiate what the elephant has been turned into – a wildebeest, said to have been “designed by committee.” 🙂
Thanks Cece,
I hope more and more people get off the train and back to reality in short order. I think it is an individual journey. I have been LONG off the train for over 10 years, but recovering from my ride is still a work in progress. Admitting to myself really how much I have been affected and how much of myself I denied and still deny is daunting but happening. I hope that my story has helped in some small way to get others to see the truth, and I am always open to helping more.
and windhorse what was you were doing in this post if not the same as Bengali tea boys were doing? you were evaluating behavior which included self but that self was put above others… please correct me if I am wrong.. Elizasbeth
I see Elizabeth is mad again because she recently failed – again – to intimidate me into applying her version of “the tech”?
I’d say the “knowing it all” is on your part. You give lip service to “everyone has their own path,” but in truth you look down on anyone who chooses something other than the path you’ve taken. It’s you who shows your colors every time you do this.
In spite of all you have done with your bank, in your interaction with others you still operate at a level of force to get them to do what you want.
Ahhhh! A discussion without war, without crime , without insanity. OK!
You are good.. in fact very good..i have noticed by now when the truth has been spoken some of the poster who” rule the blog” will gang up on you and tell you that is not the way to behave, not the way to talk because it is not acceptable by the group and if you want to be liked and to belong than you better change your ways your attitude or else !!! What I have written back that is exactly the demand from the church from its members to do and look at your self now.. doing the same…
I was locked out from private groups… booed out from big kahuna OT8’s blog and I taken every evaluation from these groups as a win… knowing that finally I have made it out.
Individuality is not accepted by the group and please.. please dont speak the truth.. that can hurt the ego… it can be very painful.. 🙂 have fun.. but you are having fun!
I thought YOU were the EP, and he was just mid-cycle…. ?
Marildi I dont have ”my version of the tech” and I c would not dream of forcing yon you sessions of any kind simply because I KNOW THIS FROM YOU””” YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN AUDITING” You might recite LRH but you only believe in Tom Campbell he is your idea of on OT he is your guru. And for the rest you see me through your reality and not mine. So sister peace be with you…What I ever done and achieved is beyond your comprehension since your reality only is aligned with your gurus.
Your sad and silly tu quoque is representative of the complete failure of Scientology to educate it’s adherents about matters of substance.
The burden of proof was / is on Hubbard and Scientology to demonstrate tangible evidence of the enormous claims made about the tech.
Disproving those claims is not required and is no more difficult than examining the anecdotal nonsense that pass for “wins” and “success stories” during “attests.”
Cat, thanks for the ack!
Ron asked:
“Then what is the reason for critics being there?”
To seek to live with the truth.
Alanzo
It also irks me that he goes mad if anyone else digs through the estate. He is practically positioning himself as Hubbard’s young lover and heir to Hubbard’s estate.
that tape sounds like a total sales job to believe in Hubbard as authority.
anybody at the time question his assumptions?
and if anybody questioned him, where is the Q&A section?
pure guru speaking
laugher
PS; I really believe in the auditing TECH and yes I stay with that belief no matter what, not like you who preach, wave the scientology flag but meanwhile dont believe it works! Yes and you are right, I dont believe any other practise can archive what auditing can.. and I do not look down any one for practising whatever because I also believe and totally that item-belief a must do it is on their path to do that just that and dont twist my words.
Especially when he fair games Mary Sue to the St Pete Times:
” Miscavige said his “missions” discovered serious problems with the GO, including stealing the best staffers, not paying bills and failing to file legal pleadings on time.
Scientology also had been embarrassed by the 1979 convictions of Mrs. Hubbard and 10 other GO staffers for conspiring to steal federal government documents and cover it up.”
” Clearwater never knew Scientology was near collapse from legal problems and its own infighting”, Miscavige said. “I thought the church would actually disintegrate.”
In 1981, as Mary Sue Hubbard appealed her prison sentence, Miscavige said he and others concluded she had to go. When none of his superiors would confront the founder’s wife, Miscavige stepped forward.
“I thought if I do something and it’s wrong or I don’t achieve this, I’ve had it. I’m toast,” he said. “But if I don’t do something, after seeing what the GO had been engaged in … I’m convinced I’m toast anyway.”
During two heated encounters, Miscavige persuaded Mary Sue Hubbard to resign. Together they composed a letter to Scientologists confirming her decision — all without ever talking to L. Ron Hubbard.
He saw the one-on-one meeting as the only way. “I knew if it was going to be a physical takeover we’re going to lose because they had a couple thousand staff and we (the “messengers”) had about 50. That is the amazing part about it.”
MARY SUE HUBBARD: The founder’s wife was ousted by Miscavige from her high post in Scientology in 1981.
Indeed, the scenario is hard to imagine in any other organizational setting. A 21-year-old employee, five years on the staff and with only a modicum of power, manages to oust the boss’s wife by arguing that is what the boss would want.”
Seriously Dave, was it really necessary to fair game Mary Sue to the St. Petersburg Times?
http://www.sptimes.com/TampaBay/102598/scientologypart3.html
PS… by now you know I write this way…do keep it in mind that my beliefs are equally valid that with other practises dont make it out of the MEST U as they have the right to believe that it do.. So want to make me wrong for believe in my self? go for it.. you always did that.
you post proves that your English is much better than mine, but I bet you dont speak Hungarian? why bother to post if you dont care? just to be negative on the issue.? go for it.. have fun.. enjoy…all yours! 🙂 🙂 🙂
Your point is well taken, Vicar. However, LRH”s interpretation of the history of civilization (no matter how off base it may have been) isn’t very significant in considering the technology he developed, There have been many inventions and developments that did tremendous good for the world at large, but that doesn’t mean there can’t be a lot more done for the individual on a personal level. Wouldn’t you agree?
“And, I think I could have achieved that in a multitude of other ways. Learning early on to simply Letting Go would most certainly be one of them – without the creation of the Only True Cult Bubble and much side effects.”
……….
That is absolutely music to my ears Geir. Thank you!
“…you see me through your reality and not mine….What I ever done and achieved is beyond your comprehension since your reality only is aligned with your gurus.”
Except for changing the word “gurus” to “personal beliefs,” I feel exactly that way about you.
“…a multitude of other ways.”
Here’s a good one, Geir.
Marildi beloved friend.. words are like the wind in the Saharas.. no one remembers the wind which have passed by… only they remember the sand its carry.. no one really cares what we know, how we think.. read and forgotten because the reader all ready moved to the next post and there is only one experience can be had in the moment of now.. Love you.. 🙂
get some auditing, than you will see the world less sad and less silly and your self less superior. not likely you have had any of those ”wins” because in your above post you have just attested to that. So call me what ever you like, turn your crank, give you pleasure.. I am delighted that I can supply that much to your existence
Hey mar have you ever seen this? I accidented upon it somehow, I think in a search for something else. It’s kinda along the lines of some of my own thinking. He’s an old old timer:
http://www.freezone.org/LRH/bob_ross.htm
No, it wasn’t Alanzo who used the word “infotainment.” It was Marty. And the least I can say is that it isn’t difficult to tell the difference between the two of you.
Obviously? So those who see results are not critical?
Interesting claim: not all non-Scientologists are wogs.
Sure doesn’t fit my experience, which is in line with the various references above, where a logical reading of wog = non-Scientologist.
Also, words have both denotation and connotation. I never once heard a positive connotation with wog — only negative. So to focus on a tight denotation of meaning of wog without looking at its connotative usage is misleading, if not disingenuous.
Since Scientology is rather OCD about dictionaries, here’s a quote from dictionary.reference.com:
wog
noun, Chiefly British Slang: Disparaging and Offensive.
1. any nonwhite, especially a dark-skinned native of the Middle East or Southeast Asia.
Hubbard did create his own specialized language — as cults generally do — but if he meant to redefine wog, that still had no impact on the broader society’s meaning of the word.
No worries, Baby — I’m very glad that knowledge of key cult characteristics are out there and getting better known.
Elizabeth, I applaud your vigor and I am sure that is what gets you trough in life.
Talk is indeed cheap, unless it’s on a Scientology tape, than it’s expensive.
I work every day with such data, so some people do seem to know how to collect it. Things like the SEER database for instance collect data on a huge number of cancer cases since the 1970s, according to localisation, staging, treatment, survival, age of patients, ect. That those people or their physicians are dead, and that cancer was known by the ancient egyptians is irrelevant if you take proper care in gathering data and in choosing your sample.
But you don’t even need those ressources to start gathering statistics (the actual mathematical thing, not the Hubbardese). You just need a suitable sample – unbiased, with big enough numbers. And the test which Alanzo proposed is extremely simple : do people come back or not ? It’s just a matter of counting visits per person in a chosen sample, which should be noted somewhere. Your contention that you need to know where every person ends up since the beginning of time is a big fat strawman.
Nervertheless, alt med proponents always find excuses not to do this very simple thing, and to forego patient follow-up – because what it might show is that their “therapy” does not work.
There are certainly shades of these characteristics in the things you mentioned (like military). Some military groups do function like cults in my opinion — Hamas, al Qaeda, Imperial Japan, Nazis, etc.
And I would agree that there is indoctrination in any military training. However, for the American military, there are quite a few disparities (fortunately) from the cult list. For example, you don’t have to cut ties with your family if they do not agree with your going into the military. And if you decide not to re-up or continue in a military career, you are not excommunicated — in fact, as a veteran, you still have that honored status of having served. You do not have to accept the “truth” of one “source/savior” etc. — and you do have the obligation to refuse illegal orders. You do have one hell of an indoctrination — boot camp — and you do sacrifice your freedom and time and energy. But you get paid. You get medical and dental coverage. You get food far more decent that Sea Org (to my understanding). And you don’t have to keep hitting people up for monetary donations and you aren’t forced to try to get everyone else you can into the service. And so on.
Perhaps most importantly — you can get out! And you won’t get a “freeloader bill” to get out. And you won’t have to lose all your friends who are still in.
So intellectually speaking, I think you raise a fair point. And I think that some militaries are farther along the cult spectrum than others — like al Qaeda. (When you see someone sawing and hacking a head off a poor victim, all the while insanely chanting “God is Great!” it is hard to see the group as less than a hideously evil cult.)
As to the US military, having had immediate relatives in Air Force, Army, and Navy (WW II, Korea), I don’t see them — nor would they see themselves — as having been in a cult.
However, the majority of people I know who are ex-Scientologists do seem to agree that they feel they were in a cult.
So maybe the fine points can (and perhaps should) be debated to a point of clarity in some forum or study or something — to tease out the nuances of when a cult shades into a culture and vice versa.
Thank you Vinaire
I see some cultish elements .. I’ll give you that. There are more missing elements that don’t fit than do though. That’s just my opinion. Maybe because I followed the $ aspect of it.
Also if my cousin left the army boot camp the family wouldn’t disconnect from him. Friends from boot camp wouldn’t be required to stop all communication.
His mail wouldn’t be read before he received it in boot camp or after he wrote it..
He can tell his fellow boot campers that he hates the Sarg. guts and they won’t write him up for it. Etc.
He has much more freedom in Army Boot Camp than one has in Scientology.
Oh well.. I just appreciate the fact that Marty has given us a place where we can discuss issues.
or caused as much damage? Has to be said, Marildi.
All this endless talk about Statics, Mindfulness, etc, etc. In the end it is just that; talk.
What I learned is life is beautiful ! – this is something real.
Thank you for writing this, Roger.
Why not correct yourself? It only takes a small degree of discipline not to ser fac on others. I mean, why did you have to make an effort to attempt to cause her to have less ARC for herself? Or to cause others to have less ARC for her? What is right about that? How does that help her or you?
WH, You summoned it up. Laughter!
Vinaire,
I feel you have insight but you often lack wisdom. What Elizabeth has just pointed out to you is key. You were too proud to get what was in front of you, with Chris’s comment. Can you not accept that what he is doing is genuinely helping him? He had a need/desire to share it.
All you could do was devalue it.
That is not mindfulness
I didn’t know that. I assumed it was Marty.Ok I apologise then.
Vinaire, after a good night’s sleep I came to see the posts. I saw that I was wrong in saying it was Marty as because of the lack of communication from Marty he was the first “target”. I read your write-up on mindfulness and it’s rather useful. It’s like obnosis and the drills of it. I even went to your blog and saw some very interesting articles, especially on self learning which I intend to read and use on my children.
In essence, after some observation and no assumptions, I see most of the people here are dealing in some spiritual activity and do have things to say. So, attacking Scientology is a push button mechanism that does not help.
If you asked me, write now I would work with others to create a group where all kinds of people, from different denominations would come in and do something about our 4th dynamic and the higher dynamics. For this to happen, big beings are needed who will have found the common grounds of agreement they can have amongst them and build a new reality. Those grounds should not be shaky but should be strong and clear so that a strong agreement can be formed upon them. That’s my view of things. People are good. It’s all the misunderstandings and the pushing of their buttons and disrespect to what they feel close to their hearts that pulls the trigger.
Courtesy and thoughtfulness make elbows rub better.
You know what my application of mindfulness is this week Vinaire? I have inverted the O/W routine.
Instead of running “what have (I) done, what have (I) with held”, I am running, ” What should (I) have done, what should (I ) have with held.”
So say, when someone like you gets you abusive, instead of introverting on myself, I go run, “What should I have done to Vinaire?” Or even, “What should / could I do to Vinaire?”
You know, it is like running another form of with hold!
And when I come up with the answers I am able to see what purposes you have restimulated, write them down, and then handle them. Or, dramatize them or carry on with them.
And then I ask, “What did I not with hold from Vinaire?” You know? And I get an item, like…. “Oxygen”.
And that opens a lot of doors of self discovery also. But the thing is, it really extends my reach into the other person’s space. It is very magical.
And the justifications that come up are quite revealing. Because i invert that too, and ask how the other person justified that. And then I can see the motivator flow I am being sucked into.
I don’t think you can be harmed unless you yourself have endorsed that harm and justified it. There are always two people at least that justify the overt. The one who commits it, and the victim! You need to take responsibility for the other person too in the cycle!
And then I flip it about to see where the cards stand. It would go secondly, “What should Vinaire have done to me?
And then I can sort of see if there is a thread of injustice. Like, if I have not done you any dis service, what should you have done to me? Reasonably, Been as courteous to me, as I have been to you.
So then If I can see that I did not deserve what you have done, it is a matter of injustice you are dabbling in.
I think Scientologists have given you much more than you admit. You discount their company, ideas and thoughts, all the while immersing yourself into it for years at a time.
I see things as they are.
Friend said:
Later on my way I found out that we did run me all the time on ARCX .. but is is something which keyed out completely on my objectives .. it means that scientology did help me very good once in the old days, but then caved me in about pictures .. I myself do not think in pictures .. having a picture has no power about me .. it is my own power to have one ..
This part is maybe misunderstood because of my english. I myself have never grasped what an ARCX is .. has never understood all the questions about from CDEI Scale .. only later when I went through LRH material and grasped that it is KUCDEINR .. and that the last part was called refused .. which was given in German as ”verweigert” or ”abgelehnt” .. and I grasped that none of it gives the right meaning of ”false” (which is per lecture SH the right meaning) .. false is the point where you go from refused (as actually called) to know .. also starting a new KUCDEINR scale if the false is not cleared .. per original LRH works you can go down serveral times from Know to False .. Know to False .. and so on .. and in his words at earlier times this makes up your case ..
For me I spotted that the false was missed .. because for me was true that it is false to force me into pictures as a solution for anything which did bother me .. so it is was false to sign me as enemy or treason .. or call me as a product of suppression, and that I would be myself suppressive ,,
Surely I refused such indications, and it did result in a protest about. But that was not the ARCX .. the ARCX was to force me into a false direction, a direction where I should solve anything with pictures ..
Look it up in Self Analysis, you have to have pictures for doing it .. it is a way to confront pictures as reality ..
Elizabeth. I have been lurking on your blog and Geir’s ..and I would respectfully suggest that you process the information that Marty and others have written.
You just are always ready to Attack. Always. You certainly are doing Hubbard proud.
” do keep it in mind that most blogger thrive on negative and the posters haven’t the clue what is ”winning’ means, so ack-ing your wins will not happen.”
…………………………………
If your words to others indicate what your ” Winning” means..Then I’ll just remain clueless.
Must you advertise your blog so incessantly ?
Ron’s mistakes:
Tape: Spirit of man congress page 8 bottom:
“And I was wrong. I was wrong.
And the biggest mistake that I have made – and I’ve made mistakes, believe me, but the biggest mistake was….
That was an excerpt from the Discussion Policy. Here is the KHTK Tech on Discussions.
Mindful Discussion
.
Let me say an other word: I did wrong with my believe in the works of LRH and Scientology .. but certainly I tried to come closer with others .. thought it will be a good idea .. I do not justify my own failures .. means that all of it would be another way if I had known all of it before .. means that I have to excuse myself for not knowing ..
I have also no reason to blame my auditors or staff around for harming me at a great degree .. some were surely really stupid .. but I have never hold back my meaning about .. most of all people I met in Scientology were good guys .. anyway .. I liked them .. following I gave believe in the promise which they gave .. there is no reason to blame or justify ..
Only that the promise for OT (becoming an OT) does not work, nobody will ever become an OT with this tech from LRH .. but it is simply to understand because Axiom 1 says that everyone was at the beginning an OT, but at the beginning there was what? There were surely not Billions of Billions thetan around who invented universes for games ..
LRH has never explained from where a thetan came. Why are so much thetan there? He did never explain what a thetan really is .. he went only down the way why beings are in trouble .. LRH did invent a lot of reasons why a being can be in trouble .. best of all is (per my meaning) helatrobus because it gives space in space as a resolution for more space ..
Anyway, I think LRH was at his top with heletrobus .. then he figured it down to something else .. he crossed here the line why thetan exist but did not found out why .. he was once on the right way .. surely he was, but the way then went over to OT III .. good deal, but he gave here a wrong time and place .. because it is impossible what he told here .. there are BTs there .. but not the way LRH gave it as a truth ..
I said once in the blog from Mike Rinder: The truth is that LRH audited once a stone on Las Palma .. he told him the story of Xenu .. sorry, but Mike did erase my comment .. maybe here too ..
Val, some related accoounts on auditing and the tech amd this thread:
Auditing on NOTS 27.10.2013 – as an Indie:
On the mental, spiritual level, apart from the many wins I have had recently, as a spirit – this is important – I realize that I am becoming more and more tolerant, relaxed, less argumentative, less “needing to be right”. These are important things and I am proud of them. And I need these kind of wins. For years I have not been tolerant enough, too argument happy, and over needing to be right. The reasons for these shifts:
* This wonderful auditing: which peels more and more layers and phobias and nonsense and other vegetables, which do not belong to me, but which I bought and even paid for…
* The fact that I feel good, more and more: this automatically gives more space to those around me, and makes me truly wishing them well too.
* The work as an Indie: This is a very very important element, especially for me, on the whole subject of patience and tolerance and accepting others no matter what. This was a problematic area in the CoS and its way, also under part of Ron’s Policy to which I object, namely, that we know it all and others are Zero. Doesn’t work. And wonder of wonders, suddenly people are listening to me more and more, and respect and appreciate much more. Because I explain mainly by Being, and setting example and granting beingness…and I am not a foreign body in any group of people but a part of it. So much Funnnnn too! Reminds me of the saying: “Endless patience, brings immediate results…”
Deep Thanks to my auditor (Tami, Dror Center) and the incredible team work we do, the like of which I have never encountered before. To my charming C/S too – thank you both for working exclusively for ME, I understand this and I am deeply touched. and thanks to all this Indie group which creates this atmosphere of truth and freedom. Cheers to you all.
Love,
Hemi
And if, quoting Geir, this is subjective account, and so a “dicey” evidence, not to be taken seriously, here’s another one:
Commendation
Tami Lemberger, auditor
Aug. 6th 2014
In life a person have to find himself a good teacher, a good doctor and a good auditor.
Since 1978 I’ve had tons of auditing from quite a few auditors in class V Orgs, AO’s, SH and in the field. Some auditing was good, some bad, some so-so.
The auditing I received from Tami Lemberger is the finest I’ve ever received, by a long shot.
While in the Church, my stable datum was that even the best auditing required frequent correction lists to smooth out glitches and errors. Correction lists were an inseparable part of all my auditing.
But with Tami there is no such thing. Every session ends with a dial-wide F/N or a Floating T/A. I never needed a correction list.
Tami’s TR’s are natural and flowing, never robotic. Her ARC is so warm and boundless, it easily dissolves any ridge. Her application of Standard Tech is flawless and effortless. The sessions are short – never more than an hour, often much shorter. And yours truly floats out of the room with VVVVVGI’s every time.
The only problem is that too often, persistent F/N prevents me from receiving further auditing for days.
No wonder that while in the Church, Tami received the planet-wide “Auditor of the Year” Golden Lion award not once, but twice.
And now, out of the Church, in the independent field, she continues her tradition of excellence of 100% standard original LRH Tech with her PCs.
Tami, Ron would be proud of you!
Motti Morell
Well these are Indie Scientologists, which according to your current thinking, Marty, are not to be trusted much more than the CoS ones. (I am sorry you feel so), so here’s another one:
Before I take up particulars of the Op Ed, I want to establish a foundation.
First, I believe that L Ron Hubbard developed a workable spiritual-based psychotherapy that when applied as prescribed – according to its axioms and fundamental laws – routinely produces a well and happy, self-determined, unrepressed being. Since leaving the church of Scientology I have applied that exact path to three individuals – from knowing little to nothing of Hubbard or Scientology to the state of Clear (quite in addition to hundreds of hours of auditing at all levels of the Bridge). Doing so outside structured, policy-controlled Scientology is far less complicated. There is little need for listing and nulling, extensive correction lists and the like because there is none of the sundry evaluation (under the justification of ‘ethics’, ‘pts/sp handling’, ‘justice’, or other organizational concerns) that inevitably enters when the process is complicated by later policies, and even tech, that stray from and contradict the laws and axioms which make auditing, and the Bridge, work. I have objective and subjective reality on the workability of Hubbard’s technology.
Posted on January 26, 2013 by martyrathbun09
Criticism is important, no decent life without it on this planet. By the way Ron thought so too. But IMHO, it should be connected to and closely followed by positive alternative. Or a hint of it.
Marty. you are changing your mind, extremely sometimes. Ron did too, whether admits it always or not. I do too. Even Alanzo does every blue moon (Sorry, slipped here). Can’t we all practice a little more compassion and follow the middle path, just a little bit more?
Rather than curse the darkness, light a candle.
Hemi
Oh you’re just p*ssed because critics are voicing their true opinions.
Grow up? OMG I am mortally wounded. ha
I find the following observation very interesting. It was made by Hubbard of Scientology.
“Attention is aberrated by becoming unfixed and sweeping at random or becoming too fixed without sweeping.”
Attention helps us become aware of things. Normally we can freely direct our attention and put it wherever we want. But when we cannot do so, something is obviously amiss. This gives a valuable tool for discovery.
Pursue non-optimum attention to discover what is amiss.
In other words, look more closely at the area that is causing the attention to become fixed and/or dispersed. This is the basic idea underlying the concept of “inconsistency” in KHTK.
As you become aware of the reason underlying some inconsistency, your attention gets freed up and returns to your control.
.
It is real communication pedro.. Absolutely. You are right about thoughts about those still in this cult.
Please listen to Jason Beghe’s youtube video. It is quite enlightening what he says about a ” Clear! “
INCONSISTENCY = An area that fixates or disperses one’s attention.
Scientology is such an area for the participants of this blog. Critics of Scientology finds something amiss with Scientology. Proponents of Scientology like to defend and justify those things amiss in Scientology because, otherwise, it shakes their stable data.
To get one’s stable data shaken is very painful for anybody. A person will give up an aberrated stable data only when he finds a better stable data.
KHTK is an attempt to provide a better stable data for those things that are amiss in scientology. Mindfulness is one of them.
.
Thank you for sharing. Very interesting reading. We are on the same page! And yes! Theo needs to start confronting Hubbard’s lies! Well said Lurker!
Vin.. There is room for all of us here. I am enjoying the diversity of opinions. The Scientologists just have the wrong opinions. ( ha)
Mindfulness is something that is amiss in Scientology.
Ironically, I was introduced to mindfulness on the TR0 drill of Scientology. But then Scientology went on a tangent from there.
Real communication is possible only when mindfulness is there. That means the following points are in:
1. Observe without getting influenced by your expectations and desire for answers.
2. Observe things as they are, without assuming anything.
3. If something is missing do not imagine something else in its place.
4. If something does not make sense then do not explain it away.
5. Use physical senses as well as mental sense to observe.
6. Let the mind un-stack itself.
7. Experience fully what is there.
8. Do not suppress anything.
9. Associate data freely.
10. Do not get hung up on name and form.
11. Contemplate thoughtfully.
12. Let it all be effortless.
We have somebody writing on this blog who takes pride in being ruthless like “Atilla the Hun.” This is similar to Hubbard boasting about being the “Prince of Darkness.”
Both of these attitudes reek of narcissism.
How mindful is that? Is it confronting like on TR0? I don’t think so.
All problems seems to start in Scientology with communication without mindfulness.
.
NLCAS wrote:
The hunt for “Standard Tech” is a fools errand and is itself perhaps the greatest excuse for failure that Hubbard ever issued.
Exactly.
It occurred to me after Valkov pointed out that LRH said that standard tech could only be delivered by a Class 8 – which course was released in 1968 – that this was yet another covert explanation for the failure of Scientology up to that point.
Why haven’t we ever made a clear or an OT?
Lack of standard tech!
NOW we have standard tech and it can only be delivered by a Class 8!
It both explains and excuses all past failures of Scientology, and markets his new sales drive for the course.
So what about all the failures of the tech since 1968 when Class 8 was released?
Really. Talk about a fool’s errand.
LRH really got himself into the cat bird’s seat when he made Scientology a religion. People will endlessly justify and make excuses for their own religious and spiritual worldviews. No one wants their religion to be proven false. A person will grab on to ANY excuse to keep propping it up, and all LRH had to do was keep providing those excuses to Scientologists. They could use his excuses for the failure of Scientology to block out the evidence that Scientology was false that was right in front of them the whole time, and keep right on believing.
And he even charged them money for these excuses!
And they kept paying!!!
Except for the ones who didn’t.
They got fair gamed.
Alanzo
You are funny, Oracle. 🙂
ORACLE: “I don’t think you can be harmed unless you yourself have endorsed that harm and justified it.”
How do you apply this datum to Ferguson or to Palestine?
.
Valkov wrote:
“See my comment above to Al. You have a righ to your opinion, however th eonly ‘sceientific proff’ would be to study the results produce dby a bunch of Class VIII auditors, because ‘standard tech’ is supposedly the province of Class VIII auditors, abd there have never been that many Class VIIIs, and they have never been studied overall in terms of the results they were getting.”
You forget so much Valkov, in order to cling to your latest excuse.
I was the Executive Director at the Peoria IL Mission for 5 years, where all auditing and C/Sing was delivered by Class 8s.
As ED, it was my job to evaluate the stats. I am the one who told you that continuous monitoring of the stats showed more than ten times the First Service Starts than Re-signs.
I have lived the exact scenario which is your latest excuse for the failure of Scientology, and that excuse fails, too.
Dude. Give it up.
You’ve got to be getting tired of defending the indefensible. At least give it a rest. Stand back from the fray and reflect on all your losing arguments. Do you still want to keep propping these up?
Akanzo
We were all in the same boat, Friend.
You are right not to blame yourself for what you did not know, and for being lied to and deceived.
You are responsible for what you can control.
And you can not control how LRH set up Scientology to lie and to deceive people. That was not your doing, and you could not control it even if you tried.
That was all LRH, and later, Miscavige.
Alanzo
Friend –
But the whole of Scientology technology is a false construct. It is a rickety scaffolding that collapses on people. It is a Rube Goldberg contraption that breaks down a little after the start.
Dianetics and Scientology do not correspond to the human mind, and especially do not correspond to your own unique mind.
Maybe someone might map out a human mind some day.
But never your mind. No one but you can map out YOUR mind.
You tried your best to make Scientology work.
It is not your fault that it doesn’t work.
Alanzo
“who ever said that OT 8 was the end of the Rainbow? just because the numbers ended that has not meant the work to free self has ended too.
just look around do you see the OT’s who stopped solo auditing with 7 or OT8 are free of considerations? no… they are not, the work need to be continued”
+1 Elizabeth! The Bridge is definitely not complete. Ron’s next level of case was in full dramatization around the time he dropped the body but yet he was a “NOTs completion.” NOTs is certainly not the end of case and NOTs itself was an incomplete technology. For those of you who haven’t figured this out yet, new BTs replace the ones that were freed.
Juston –
I’ve been in Chris’s position before, sharing my wins with people from Scientology on the Internet (and before), using a computer to disseminate.
It takes courage. And I do believe that it is important for everyone to hear Chris’ voice and to examine his wins, and as you say, see that in his own estimation right now, that he is being helped.
I wish more Scientologists had his courage.
People are helped in Scientology.
And I also recognize that the more of LRH’s cultic coercion techniques that can be deleted from Scientology, probably the more can be helped it.
Alanzo
Those who really want to understand how subtle conditioning can be should study the following one page link inspired by Alanzo.
“If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him”
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Kemist wrote:
“You just need a suitable sample – unbiased, with big enough numbers. And the test which Alanzo proposed is extremely simple : do people come back or not ? It’s just a matter of counting visits per person in a chosen sample, which should be noted somewhere.“
What Valkov is not telling you, Kemist, is that every mission and org on the planet already have this data.
Every week since the mid1960’s Scientologists on staff have kept track of statistics such as “First Service Starts”, which counts when a brand new person starts on any service. And then they also keep track of re-signs, which counts how many of those First Services Starts buys a 2nd and 3rd and 4rth course.
These statistics have been kept in every Scn organization in the world and reported up to International management every single week, who then compiles these statistics for the whole world – every single week.
And they retain those stats is a huge database.
The information is all most definitely there, Kemist, as Valkov knows.
But he leaves all this out when he argues with you.
As any good and loyal Scientologist will.
Alanzo
Tony,
You might want to restudy very carefully the PDC & Factors lectures, and take a look specifically on how Hubbard brakes down each component of M.E.S.T. Then you might want to do some of the non-metered process to obtain insights into each one of those item.
SPACE is the hardest of all of the components to comprehend but it is the one that I think opens the door to all of the confusion.
ENERGY, is also a key, as to how is created and perceived by you.
I think those will answer your questions about the phenomena of BTs and Entities.
I recommend Carlos Castaneda’s book “The Art of Dreaming”, because it is a sort of a summary of the above lectures, written in a humorous, non-religious and non threatening way.
I also recommend Bruce Lipton’s book “The Biology of Belief” because it explains in terms of Quantum Physics how awareness interacts at the physical level and it describes the Space/Awareness paradox very nicely.
I wish you the best of luck.
Justin, my mind is open to wisdom. Hopefully wisdom will come and stay with me.
I never invalidated Chris’s win. I wholeheartedly accept it. I think that the win is due to Chris’s own effort. Scientology simply provided a framework. Buddhism provides a better framework.
I am taking the best of Buddhism and Scientology and incorporating it into KHTK (Knowing How To Know). I am open to any help anybody can give me.
I am not the source of KHTK. If anybody is stuck up with the idea of SOURCE then he should look at the following link.
.
“Tony,
The e-meter (resistance detector) is used in law enforcement and a variety of consciousness studies. Those applications validate the meter’s workability in locating resistance connected with thought. The problem with scientology’s use is that the program ultimately makes the follower so dependent upon it that his psyche takes on the mechanical characteristics of it in some ways.
Marty”
+1 Marty. IMO about half of the grades should be done without the meter (II, IV and NED with Meter…ARCSW, 0, I, and III without Meter…assuming the PC is in agreement to this). Auditor “certainty” should include knowing when an EP has been reached, not being dependent on a device to tell him. On the flip side, a PC should also gain gradual increases in self-knowingness by knowing when a process is flat without an FN needing to be indicated to him. Such a system would create more PC confidence in self than the church’s system.
Also, the E-meter is very old technology…there is now most certainly a technological ability to create a device that is significantly more valuable in locating sources of charge…it’s time to move into the 21st century in this regard.
Hi Baby, I remember meeting you at Flagdown. 🙂
Theo, I knew your heart is in the right place.
Ron, please read what I said with mindfulness. Don’t assume anything.
Friend.
Would you like a detailed explanation of the origin of Thetans?
marknr@hushmail.com
Mark
LOL! Marildi is a smart cookie, indeed. 🙂
I admire her for her memory.
Here is the link to Jason Beghe’s video.
Yeah. I offered a course in spelling it out but not much interest materialized. One day I may wind up publishing the book on the subject. It is really very simple if one learns a little about the Tao and physics.
Thank you Hemi.
We needed a little fresh air.
Mark
Here is Alan Walter’s memory of how Quickie Grades came about:
“What a bunch of lies!!!!!!
This is just one of them.
Note: Neglect of this PL has caused great hardship on staffs, has cost countless millions and made it necessary in 1970 to engage in an all-out, international effort to restore basic Scientology over the world. Within 5 years after the issue of this PL, with me off the lines, violation had almost destroyed orgs. ?Quickie grades? entered in and denied gain to tens of thousands of cases. Therefore actions which neglect or violate this policy letter are HIGH CRIMES resulting in Comm Evs on ADMINISTRATORS and EXECUTIVES. It is not ?entirely a tech matter?, as its neglect destroys orgs and caused a 2-year slump. IT IS THE BUSINESS OF EVERY STAFF MEMBER to enforce it.? LRH
I was on the Original Class VIII Course when the “Quickie Grades” were enforced into existence by LRH.
There were 5 people taken from the “no Grades in state” to putting their Grades 0 to IV in, then Power, in 5 hours. Then the CC. Then all the way to OT 6 in under 3 weeks.
LRH boasted about it on the Class VIII tapes……..most likely edited out now.
Everyone of those 5 people blew Scio within 3 weeks of returning to their Orgs as OT 6 – Class VIII’s.
If you did not do the “Quickie Grades” on your pc. you were thrown overboard.
In October, 1969 I came to the ship and protested to LRH about the “Quickie Grades” and the damage it was doing world wide.
For my troubles I was held on the ship for 3 months, comm eved and vilified.
My 10 Centers were taken from me……
Alan”
See https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2014/08/17/standard-scientology-2/#comment-314067
.
Now we know where we stand and we knew that before and we have agreed that no matter how different our realities are that do not change our friendship, since affinity is there, and I still think you are my friend and always will be.. I am not burning the bridge 🙂
One really needs to look at what works in auditing.
It is looking at one’s case with mindfulness that works in auditing.
Baby… you are 100 right…have a lovely day!
you mean take on a sweet valance? I have apologised many times to people… in this case I haven t clue who I need to apologise to. Vinaire to I wont since I truly admire the mans knowledge, and he and I been at it for years, and when I say to him I love him I mean that. To Marildi, I lover her, I think she is fantastic and I have told her that many occasion. She is one of the finest – person I know.. So apologise for not having the same realities? She to feel the same as me about what I believe, expressed that many times…Truly I don get it..Oracle,, if both person knows they are being aware that they have very little in common yet still feel much affinity than why one of them need to apologise? Please explain.
Marty,
I know, and I appreciate very much what you are doing.
That would be my only loss, that we didn’t have the time to do something better with all of this. But I guess it has to be done one step at the time.
.
We will do something better in the future.
Hi marildi. In terms of volume of truly useful discoveries, I don’t think so. But there is at least one who made improvements to the subject, at least one who made advancements to the subject, and there is a lot of incredibly valuable research that’s been done into Quantum Physics that put more pieces of the puzzle into view (that were not in view in Ron’s lifetime). There has also been an incredible advance in technology and when this technology is specialized toward elimination of case/spiritual advancement, we’re gonna fly! (assuming people can let go of not changing anything…including 60+ year old electronic devices…or else we’re low-life squirrels)
Terril I applaud your optimism and persistance.
Or should I say push-through and follow-through ?
Well said, Baby.
One needs to look at both similarities and differences to sanely assess. Even Hubbard said that.
>
TFU*k.. You are right , it is on endless, seems endless, but we been in it for a long time. we live in a spiritual universe we operate in the spiritual universe, [thoughts, intentions, telepathic communication] we only have a mistaken faulty belief that we operate in the MEST and that is because the ”eyes”sees.” Entities I been giving sessions to them since 76.. there is great wins to be had for all, recently I been giving session to my cat’s Entities, her behavior changed dramatically she has become sweet gentle, and now dont mind staying inside the house. By the way what given you the idea I haven figured this out yet? I left the church in 82 because the C/S ordered me to stop auditing Entities and I was not willing to do that. I have met wonderful Entities, in my reality they are same as you and I are , the only difference is that they are not anchored to a body, but I am not positive about that either. All I know is we have connections through beliefs-incidents and in session that connection is severed. the cognitions are mutual, but all cognitions become ”public” since it happens in the Spiritual Universe and that is that is great. But I dont want to bore you, I just thought I let you know I know about Entities. Best to you!
Well said, FOTF.
One must look at all aspects, and just selectively only those, which support one’s viewpoint. Mindfulness is not selective.
>
What we believe in is personal, it can be any other ways and among your personal beliefs there is that Elizabeth is a ”religious manic” now dear M.. should I too be upset but that still not change a thing what I know about you.. the bridge is still standing!
Nolongercare ….. Yes, you are correct that LRH promised “super powers” that he did not and could not deliver. Though I would never minimize the value of “realizations and feeling happier” about one’s journey through life. HOW important those are to any one person I guess would be an individual and quite personal matter.
Marildi, its madness to ask such a question when the answer is obvious. You spin or water down most points others make in order to support your position or agenda. You do not need to defend LRH or anything connected to him in order to be right. And I do not believe it helps anyone. LRH left a mixed and messy legacy. The churches “help” was always done for selfish reasons. That is one reason is has no societal support. No points made on this blog will change that. And this blog is not a 3rd or 4th dynamic activity or a substitute for one. We mostly talk and debate. An online lyceum. This blog is useful and interesting and even liberating at times. But equally or more importantly, a person needs a good balance of actually helping real people in their communities and not just debating what is the most effective way to do that. Marildi, you may, in real terms, help far more folks than I do or ever could. My point is that charitable works and deeds are what is important. There is a lot that needs our attention.
Laughter!
You are very welcome. I believe there are any number of ways to achieve almost anything imaginable. But it does take imagination sometimes 🙂 But often it takes an attitude of utter simplicity to get there the fastest. And Scientology is surely not simple.
Food for thought..just found those interesting data online:
Although people often think that memory operates like recording equipment, it is not the case. The molecular mechanisms underlying the induction and maintenance of memory are very dynamic and comprise distinct phases covering a time window from seconds to even a lifetime.[64] In fact, research has revealed that our memories are constructed. People can construct their memories when they encode them and/or when they recall them. To illustrate, consider a classic study conducted by Elizabeth Loftus and John Palmer (1974) [65] in which people were instructed to watch a film of a traffic accident and then asked about what they saw. The researchers found that the people who were asked, “How fast were the cars going when they smashed into each other?” gave higher estimates than those who were asked, “How fast were the cars going when they hit each other?” Furthermore, when asked a week later whether they have seen broken glass in the film, those who had been asked the question with smashed were twice more likely to report that they have seen broken glass than those who had been asked the question with hit. There was no broken glass depicted in the film. Thus, the wording of the questions distorted viewers’ memories of the event. Importantly, the wording of the question led people to construct different memories of the event – those who were asked the question with smashed recalled a more serious car accident than they had actually seen. The findings of this experiment were replicated around the world, and researchers consistently demonstrated that when people were provided with misleading information they tended to misremember, a phenomenon known as the misinformation effect.[66]
Interestingly, research has revealed that asking individuals to repeatedly imagine actions that they have never performed or events that they have never experienced could result in false memories. For instance, Goff and Roediger [67] (1998) asked participants to imagine that they performed an act (e.g., break a toothpick) and then later asked them whether they had done such a thing. Findings revealed that those participants who repeatedly imagined performing such an act were more likely to think that they had actually performed that act during the first session of the experiment. Similarly, Garry and her colleagues (1996) [68] asked college students to report how certain they were that they experienced a number of events as children (e.g., broke a window with their hand) and then two weeks later asked them to imagine four of those events. The researchers found that one-fourth of the students asked to imagine the four events reported that they had actually experienced such events as children. That is, when asked to imagine the events they were more confident that they experienced the events.
Vinaire ?
Oracle.
Per the def. of overt.
“…An act of commission or omission,,,” Many confusions, much stupidity resolves when that def. becomes real to a person.
“Screw them as long as I do my job” is really small thinking and has gotten people in trouble en masse through history.
Mark
Elizabeth – I have had hundreds (possibly thousands) of hours of professional auditing from Sea Org Class VI, VIII, IX and XII auditors. I am familiar, subjectively and objectively, with virtually all of both sides of the so-called Bridge to Total Freedom. Can you say the same?
Scientology cannot deliver on the major promises of the states of Clear and OT. Instead it DELIVERS some temporal life improvements (which are not without value) while continuing to SELL advanced states of being that it cannot and never has delivered.
If the written promises of the tech were more aligned with the results, or if the results of the application of the tech were more aligned with the written promises, then the entire subject would be more worthy of serious consideration.
As it stands today, Scientology as a subject is a hoax. Hundreds of thousands of dollars are charged for promised results that are not and never have been delivered, specifically the states of being described as Clear and OT.
In the business world, that is called fraud. Elsewhere it is sometimes called religion. What it looks like from here is a fraudulent business pretending to be a religion, regardless of the branding of those doing the delivery.
“For those of you who haven’t figured this out yet, new BTs replace the ones that were freed.”
False data. A TRUE completion is a completion. Period.
Here is my view on the origin of Thetan besides Hubbard’s imagination.
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T.O., that reminds me of a process I once had run on me, when I had a “problem with a person”. It is an ‘assist’ process. The questions were “What effect could you create on ____?”, “What effect would you rather not create on ____?”
It worked quite well. But don’t worry, Elizabeth is planning to behead Vin when he goes to Vancouver this Fall……… 🙂
Here are my thoughts on E-Meter:
The E-meter reacts to both reactive and analytical thought. In the beginning it picks up the obvious reactive thoughts connected with an unwanted condition. But once the inconsistencies associated with these thoughts are resolved, it becomes increasingly difficult to distinguish reactive thoughts from analytical thoughts. This makes Scientology approach to case resolution uncertain.
One effect of this uncertainty is endless ‘auditing of entities’ that occurs on OT levels. The other effect is conditioning where one believes that one is getting better and powerful while unwanted conditions persist.
Thus, an E-meter may appear to be helpful in the beginning, but on a long term basis it creates dependency and leads to conditioning.
Thanks, excellent post FOTF! It is especially different now that the US Army is all voluntary. The other branches always were. And usually people know what they are getting into, with military service.
You’ve added nothing to the post (s). They note scientologists argue nothing but subjectivity as if it is objective evidence. Add to it the arrogance of wielding that sleight of hand to argue the author ought to be more objective (“follow the middle path”), and you’ve got yourself the typical scientologist. I feel for ya. As I have said before when you begin to see the bars, I’ll likely be here for you.
Nice catch, Roger.
Elizabeth Loftus’ work on false memory is extremely enlightening to anyone who has ever received Dianetics and Scientology auditing.
Many of the factors that she has identified as installing false memories are present throughout the Scientology environment.
Here’s a great TED talk by her on the nature of memory.
Alanzo
Alanzo
Here are the details:
A “photon” is an outcome of an electromagnetic wave acquiring particle like properties. Similarly, thetan seems to be an outcome of theta acquiring individuality.
A particle acquires an identity through its discreteness, form and inertia. Similarly, a thetan seems to acquire a definition through its “discreteness” of individuality and “inertia” of identity.
The wave properties of electromagnetism seem to condense into the form of a particle. Similarly, the awareness properties of theta seem to condense into the form of a thetan.
The thetan seems to be the resultant of awareness vectors formed by considerations, desires and impulses. Thus, a thetan may be defined in terms of complex interactions among the elemental vectors of considerations, desires and impulses.
These elemental vectors seem to make up the thetan’s intention, thetan’s will, and the thetan itself. Their source seems to be beyond the thetan.
Thetan is the resultant identity. An identity has a localized form, and also a localized occurrence. Thus, a thetan has a location in space and time (see the picture above).
The thetan is considered to be the spirit, which is basically the aliveness of the body.
The lower Grades processes can be run easily with mindfulness.
ARC STRAIGHTWIRE PROCESSES
Here is Part 1 of the list of Scientology Grade 0 processes. You may run them by letting the mind un-stack itself. Please note that these processes may run out quite fast. You may go over all of them from beginning to end a second and a third time.
IMPORTANT NOTE:
In KHTK (mindfulness) there should be no effort applied to recalling and remembering. Any such effort would violate the principle of letting the mind un-stack itself. If you recall, or remember, and the material simply appears, then that is fine. But, when no material appears, even when you know it is there, then you also know that something else needs to be un-stacked first. That something may be handled on some other process. So, please, don’t go digging into the mind. If you feel something is there just beyond awareness then simply observe patiently as required by mindfulness. The material will show up eventually.
A communication lag (comm lag) is the time it takes to get response from the mind to a question asked.
A lack of communication lag would mean that the mind is un-stacking properly. One would then run those processes first that produce the least comm lag. That would bring about maximum gain, and it would also help reduce comm lag on later processes.
A person trained on mindfulness can easily observe the communication lag within himself. He can then identify the Grade 0 process that produces minimal comm lag. He would run that process before others…
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Yes, there are large databases in some areas.
I do not see “People come back or not” as a worthwhile stat. In therapy or the self-improvement areas, people tend to go or continue for as long as they “need to”, which tends to be until their problem is solved, or theybecome convinced the particular approach will not solve their problem. Additionally, there is no standardization worth mentioning in “therapies” of a subjective nature. We’re talking about a lot of ‘intangibles’. Th epersonality of the therapist, fit with the personality of the client, goals of the therapist as wel as the client.
It is not hesame kind of thing as measuring and tracking th eresults of chemo.
However, I am all for actual studies and I have posted some thoughts bout the parameters for stdying whether or not ‘standard tech’ actually exists and what its degree of effectiveness might be. Studies, to produce any valid results, need to be controlled more than “who comes back.”
TO wrote:
“I don’t think you can be harmed unless you yourself have endorsed that harm and justified it. There are always two people at least that justify the overt. The one who commits it, and the victim! You need to take responsibility for the other person too in the cycle!
I’m sorry, Oracle but I have to call bullshit here.
Children who have been raped by pedophiles, someone who steps out in front of a train without realizing it, a tornado that comes and destroys your house all these are times when you have been harmed with absolutely no “endorsement” on your part .
You are not responsible for things that you did not cause, and can not control.
Hubbard wanted to blame his victims and so he screwed with your ability to tell cause and effect, and got you to “take responsibility” for things that you could not possibly be responsible for.
Examine your thinking here – is it really yours?
Or is it L Ron’s and you swallowed it without inspection?
Alanzo
T-shirt idea: MEST U. Stands for MEST University.
I recommend that PDC tapes should be studied with the principles of Mindful Discussion, especially Subject Clearing.
Mindful Discussion
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Vinaire.
To put in the southern patios,(‘pa,twa’, the dialect of the common people of a region.)
“You tickle me.”
A slightly more endearing, non derogatory form of ‘You amuse me’
Baby… your evaluation is yours how you see me and with expressing it so strongly it is you who are attacking!
Suggesting that I should be different because the way I am is not agreeable to you! You believe whatever I write is shaking your believes therefore that must stop at once! And that can only happen when I become someone different : same or similar as your hero’s Marty or Geir Isene. [there is one Marty and there is one Geir the rest who fallow their footsteps are assuming valances. And that is hero worship]
We are singular each Spirit has their own universe, separate from any other universes!
Interesting yes that you suggest that I must change and what I should become by studying some other valances?
The church did the same demanded that members behave accordingly to their rules and for that reason members have rebelled and had left. The Church has the policy, every group has policies including the group of people who are the main posters here in Marty’s blog: You need to behave: talk, have the same beliefs as the rest of us do or else!
I find it very interesting that different beliefs when expressed is ”labeled” ATTACK! The church of scientology believes in the same so anyone who has not agreed to their LAWS were labeled SUPRESIVE and shown the door.
Do you have any idea why that is? Those who fear what others consider true for them that those considerations-beliefs are dangerous and those dangerous-nasty different ideas, manners will replace their own reality. I simply called that none confront.
The church staff and its managers could not confront anything different either!
We who went into the church in order to become free of the binding considerations by receiving auditing, we did that to become different, to become individual, to think for self, not to be affected by the group thinking, and to be able to speak up and communicate our reality no matter what that maybe.
Just because of that different realities gained by having lots of sessions-cognitions and now those of you who have not changed fear of these new certainties and that frightens the daylight out of you and you gang up and attack these sources..
When you were in my blog reading why did you not left the same post as here? Simply because you have not dared to be alone and you did not felt the groups support and without that you don’t have the voice. So next time when you are attacking do it in my blog be one on one with me. Thank you for your suggestion, coming from you I am sure it was well meaning. Elizabeth.
Yes I can say the same and do add few tens of thousand of more auditing hours.
What is too bad, Al, is that you don’t have anything better to offer.
Here is the transcript of PDC Lecture #1, with my notes.
Click to access pdc-lecture-1.pdf
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Marty, et all…
This may well be lost in the hundreds of comments but if I may…
Nail… Head.
I still believe Hubbard’s biggest unresolved… (And I believe he never made any attempt to try to resolve)… issue was that of “being right”.
His HCOB of similar title (“you can be right” I believe) is to me the biggest warning siren he submitted.
Dave is a perfect number two in that regard.
I would also share, with your dear readers, if I may Marty my definition of addiction… That being ‘any activity or behaviour engaged in that effectively distracts one from a life that is to the individual otherwise intolerable’.
That’s my definition anyway. Video games, drugs or an extremely immersive cult can accomplish this.
If this description of addiction is remotely accurate the next question becomes why is one in need of such an unhealthy “escape”?
I’d argue that their needs are not being met otherwise. I’ll forgoe explaining that logic but if you can humour me that this might be a possible reality for some then I’d ask what are the needs that Hubbard, Dave and Scientokogy meet…?
I believe this one of servitude… In the sense that once “on purpose”, etc… One is wholly devoid of having to be responsible. Kinda like when they where children and mum and dad took are of everything… Okay maybe that is a bit harsh… But many of compared the atypical scientologist to an overly arrogant and equally ignorant teenager.
It’s a big question… Why did we… Why did anybody sign up for this shit…?
The answer… I believe… Is not in deconstructing Hubbard or Dave… But the truly potent and genuinely healing answer comes from ourselves.
Anyway… Long comment… And sorry to fill up valuable commenting space but I was somehow inspired to share.
And Marty… Your posts are hitting out the park these days… Big time.
Lots of love to all…
So, Valkov is not being mindful when discussing. His input to the discussion is very slanted.
I never worked in an org or mission so I can’t speak to that. MY impression is that scientology’s own stats have often been falsified and th e results skewed to look favorable to upper management.
That aside, I have just posted my view that simply counting how many people come back and how long they stay is a false standard. It’s really irrelevant. It’s irrelevant for the study of any psychotherapy. Scientific studies could be designed to measure meaningful results, that are more controlled. I have also posted about this.
Al ignores this because it is also true that Al is a headful of conclusions in search of ‘evidence’ and justification, always looking to confirm his biases. And always looking for opportunities to promote his opinions.
Since I haven the clue how you see a black cat and for the same reason you cant see how I perceive the same cat. Two universes can not be compared, wins-cognitions cant be compared. The journey of self-discovery cant be compared. Your reality is your universe, and no one else can duplicate that or take it away from you. You will never know my reality how I see the universe which I have created for self through experiences. I am sorry that I picked up the challenge or attack you have offered. I have no idea why you need to prove anything. I am fine with your believes no matter what they are and I have no desire to change those believes in any ways. So.. with that I wish you a very good day..
I’g rather be thought of as a “scientologist”, than as a fawning suck-up like you.
Alanzo, please don’t be so harsh with Valkov. He can’t help it. It is his stable data on line.
Pink feat John Legend – Don’t give up lyrics
In this proud land we grew up strong
We were wanted all along
I was taught to fight, taught to win
I never thought I could fail
No fight left or so it seems
I am a man whose dreams have all deserted
I’ve changed my face, I’ve changed my name
But no one wants you when you lose
Don’t give up
‘cos you have friends
Don’t give up
You’re not beaten yet
Don’t give up
I know you can make it good
Though I saw it all around
Never thought I could be affected
Thought that we’d be the last to go
It is so strange the way things turn
Drove the night toward my home
The place that I was born, on the lakeside
As daylight broke, I saw the earth
The trees had burned down to the ground
Don’t give up
You still have us
Don’t give up
We don’t need much of anything
Don’t give up
’cause somewhere there’s a place
Where we belong
Rest your head
You worry too much
It’s going to be alright
When times get rough
You can fall back on us
Don’t give up
Please don’t give up
‘got to walk out of here
I can’t take anymore
Going to stand on that bridge
Keep my eyes down below
Whatever may come
And whatever may go
That river’s flowing
That river’s flowing
Moved on to another town
Tried hard to settle down
For every job, so many men
So many men no-one needs
Don’t give up
’cause you have friends
Don’t give up
You’re not the only one
Don’t give up
No reason to be ashamed
Don’t give up
You still have us
Don’t give up now
We’re proud of who you are
Don’t give up
You know it’s never been easy
Don’t give up
’cause I belïeve there’s the a place
There’s a place where we belong
NolongercareaboutScn, well said. I don’t think Elizabeth understood what you said. Whatever she is doing is off the Standard Scientology Bridge.
ORACLE: “You know what my application of mindfulness is this week Vinaire? I have inverted the O/W routine…”
Oracle: This is not mindfulness. All you are doing is introverting.
The following is mindfulness:
Mindfulness 6: Let the Mind Un-stack itself
Reference: The 12 Aspects of Mindfulness
Mindfulness provides the discipline for looking and contemplation.
You may do this exercise while sipping coffee in a café, or strolling along a river. You may even find a place where you can sit comfortably for a while without being disturbed. Then patiently observe the world go by.
Let the mind un-stack itself naturally through patient contemplation on whatever comes up. Observe the issue uppermost in the mind, and then the next, and the next. Let the mind deal with issues in the order it wants to. There should be no effort to recall, to dig for answers, or to interfere with the mind in any way. Simply look at what is right there in front of the mind’s eye at any moment. The mind will never present anything overwhelming when allowed to un-stack itself.
.
MINDFULNESS 6: Let the mind un-stack itself.
1. Observe as usual. Notice the environment and other people.
2. Start applying the aspects of mindfulness that you have learned so far.
3. Simply look at what is right there in front of your physical and mental vision.
4. Do not put any resistance to the mind. Let it bring up whatever it wants to.
5. Let the mind freely associate and un-stack itself naturally in the order it wants to.
6. If there are many issues, let the mind choose what to look at first.
7. If there is a question, simply look in and around the area of question more closely.
8. If there is no answer to the question do not search for one; let the mind un-stack.
9. If there is something that does not makes sense, simply look around that area more closely.
10. Do not dig into the mind for explanation; let the mind un-stack.
11. Do not manipulate. Simply observe the issue uppermost in the mind.
12. Contemplate patiently on whatever is there by looking at it from various angles.
13. If the mind wants to get lost, let it get lost. Get some rest. The mind will return.
14. Expand your span of attention and let the perceptions pour in.
15. Let the realizations present themselves to you without you making any effort.
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Develop this exercise to a point where you may execute it even while interacting socially with others. Keep observing patiently without interfering with the mind in any manner. Let it un-stack itself. Many things may come up naturally to be scrutinized. Simply observe them and become aware of them without effort.
Vicar, well said. 🙂
The most valuable ability that a person can have is to see things as they are, and not through Scientology filter.
It is a false belief that spirtual (Theta) and MEST are separate universes.
of course, I will do that but first I will tell him how I admire him for believing in self and sticking with his beliefs no matter what and he dares to stands alone and I really admire him for that, he dont need the group’s support because of the above. Of course I admire him besides all these and top of that he lets me express my realities he has a wonderful ability to allow beingness, and of course I abuse that regularly… He might not be correct and always right but who is? Vinaire is just fine as he is… 🙂 now about that old bald headed eagle let me tell you…… Oh I already have.!
V… darling…you are right on that but we are not believing that we are some boulder but awareness and awareness is not solid therefore it is separate. Now lets get down to the nitty-gritty, what are thoughts made up from? your turn…
I agree with you that memory does not act like a recording equipment. There is an algorithm that gradually condenses the data stored. Pictures make only a very little part of the storage called PERCEPTION. Other levels of storage are as follows. Please see
According to Wikipedia, memory is an organism’s ability to store, retain, and recall information and experiences. There are three main stages in the formation and retrieval of memory:
1. Encoding or registration (receiving, processing and combining of received information)
2. Storage (creation of a permanent record of the encoded information)
3. Retrieval, recall or recollection (calling back the stored information in response to some cue for use in a process or activity)
.
THEORY
The three stages of memory may be described as follows:
(1) Encoding or Registration
The sensory input enters the brain and it is immediately processed into perception. Within 300 – 500 milliseconds the perception is processed into experience. In hours or days, the experience is then processed into information. As time passes, the information is further processed into hypothesis, theory, principles, axioms and self.
Thus, the sensory input gets encoded in the form of the following layers (see THINKING & THOUGHT).
1. Perception
2. Experience
3. Information
4. Hypothesis
5. Theory
6. Principles
7. Axioms
8. Self
Current perception has a span from present up to 500 milliseconds in the past. There may be ‘undigested perception’ in the form of some incident from a longer past but those are very few. This ‘undigested perception’ has been called ‘engram’ in the subject of Dianetics.
(2) Storage
The sensory input is being received continuously. It gets converted into perception. This is the most detailed form of memory, and requires a lot of storage space. This is the reason why perceptual memory lasts for a very short period before it gets converted into experience.
Experience is less detailed form of memory, and it takes less storage space. Thus, the original input may be stored as experience for a relatively longer period of time.
The layers that follow experience (see above) provide different forms of memory that require lesser and lesser amounts of storage space.
The memory at the level of perception is very detailed. Therefore, perception takes the most storage space and provides least durable memory. On the other hand, the memory at the level of self exists as one’s viewpoint. Therefore, self takes the least amount of storage space, and provides the most durable memory.
Self makes one appear to be an individual. This is essentially a construct.
(3) Retrieval, recall or recollection
Memory is retrieved when attention is placed on an area of the mind. This is also knowledge.
The mind is essentially a cross-indexing of these layers. Attention simply activates the data one is interested in. This cross-indexing reconstructs the memory using the ability to visualize.
Thus, memory, or knowledge, is essentially an extrapolated visualization from current and undigested perception, experience, information, hypothesis, theory, principles, axioms, and self.
This knowledge may not be a hundred percent accurate. It depends on what one expects to be there. It also depends on one’s viewpoint and beliefs. The beliefs reside on the layers of hypothesis and below. The deeper are the beliefs, the more influence they have on knowledge.
The exact knowledge is limited to the current perception that has a span from present up to 500 milliseconds in the past. Knowledge that is retrieved from past beyond 500 milliseconds, is not so exact because it is influenced by one’s expectations, presuppositions, speculations, etc.
Looking per KHTK differentiates the exact knowledge from the extrapolated knowledge. It helps one spot inconsistencies to improve one’s knowledge…
..
Engrams deal with only the first layer of perception.
Other layers are not dealt too well in Scientology.
I just read your write up in your blog.. great–fantastic but at one point my reality differs.
Theta dont have a location only mass has that.
What a theta believes is that he is located when it experiences a mass of energy and that energy mass is given a location by consideration: this is here, that mass is there, and that one is million light years away.
Distance is a consideration also. Now if the theta experiences the so called energy mass ”being close” that means that energy-mass has a bigger stimulating affect on him that the one million light years away.
So dear… with that the theta created distance.
Stimulation is a great factor those are of course the sensations. Trust me, if the theta would find that energy-mass millions of light years of way more stimulating that that would be’ ‘his location”’ ”his present time anchor” not where hi is at now.
So in my reality, the most affecting energy -mass is and always will be the present time location==being most aware of.
Example: drop a brick on your foot.. I guaranty that your attention your awareness will be on the location of the HEAVIER EXPERIENCE YOU BE HAVING IN THAT MOMENT, now your foot is throbbing like hell and you fall on your face and really hurt your nose.. New awareness -new location : the nose.
So the theta do not move…only mass can change location, but the awareness is pulled by different magnitude of energy-masses. 🙂
You make really good points, and agree with your point that it’s a fine line between, ‘servitude/slavery’ and being in ‘service’. I think they can be distinguished from each other perhaps by consent, however in the presence of lies and false information, one cannot effectively consent as any rational decision should be based on factual information.
As far as why did anyone sign up, I think there’s the, ‘hope factor.’ It’s not to say one doesn’t observe failings, but there’s the constant willingness to want improvement, either from an individual stance and/or organisational stance. The doubt formula is really geared towards the fact that most people DO want to help, and have genuinely good intentions towards others.
But yeah, the arrogant teenager know it all, is a fairly good description.
Valkov wrote:
“I never worked in an org or mission so I can’t speak to that. MY impression is that scientology’s own stats have often been falsified and the results skewed to look favorable to upper management.”
There is a whole lot that you actually can’t speak to about LRH, Dianetics and Scientology, Valkov, because you actually know so little about it – but you always open your mouth speak to it, anyway.
Marty has asked you before: Why would you think that it is ethical for you to promote and defend something, and attack people, on a subject that you know so little about?
Boggles the mind.
Alanzo
By the way…. What is a awareness…. again in my reality IS THE EXPERIENCE IT SELF… One can to be aware of something if not having the experience what that is.
Now it never set with me what LRH said that we are ”awareness unit” [correct me if I am wrong on this] How could be theta which is intangible= hold no mass, infinite= has no beginning no end un-measurable, be a awareness unit? Unit is a something. I am OK with LRH’s beliefs because that was his and mine are mine.. I guess that I have come to different conclusion by now. BUT again if he would not have his in place than mine would never be born. 🙂
Marty,
You are right. The wavelength I tried to transmit in this case was ‘letting go’ not piling on. Well observed.
As to the author and friend, (you), I only requested humbly, not ‘oughted’ you, as it is not my way nowadays. And I stand by my request, which did not use “objective”, but “the middle path” – a term which more and more sets itself in my heart in much of my dealings with the world.
As to the typicality stated, the win from Nots above, and many others that I gained, mark me more as a Buddhist, don’t you think? How embarassing for a Scientologist…Well, I am neither, I suppose. Just trying to be Me.
Heavy labaeling tends to distance from essence.
It feels that many aspects of your attitude resemble those of a scientologist in its strong labelling, judgments, and dislike for criticism.
Here I go, doing the same…Sorry. But pleaes note, you labelled me “the typical scientologist”. You know I am not! Not any more. You were there when the big change occured, and helped! So, no need to label. Disagreeing is good enough…
As to your kind offer for future being there for me, I thank you for it. I do. And I will, if I’ll feel like. Your record on help is remarkable! But right now I am doing well and going forward, growing, and it should be accepted.
Thanks, Hemi
Al,, the problem is you keep reiterating that I am “defending” something, inspite of all evidence to the contrary..
If you want to go into you experience as ED of the Peoria mission in detail, I think that would be valuable data. There are lots of ex-scientologists posting on various sites that do exactly that. they give time[lacform and event. YOU virtually never do. You just lay down conclusions without so much as an anecdote to back them up.
Infact I doubt you actually rene=member much of those times, or actual stats etc.
And what do you mean by ‘service starts’? What do those have to do with how many Class VIIIs you had on staff?
For example, Tom Martiniano in his last post said that back in the early 1970s of al the folks who started the Comm Course when it was stil ‘hard TRs’ style, where he was, about 30% continued on to do more training. And that number was winnowed down as they progressed up the training bridge.
The false datum for measuring the success/effectiveness of Scientology, that I am hearing over and over from you is that there is some kind of expectation that if everyone who tries Scentology should be staying in Scientology for the whole enchilada. Wg=here did you get that? Who told you that? That is completely unrealistic. It is a hidden standard, actually not so hidden in this case, but it is a false standard. What actually goes on is a process of prospecting and winnowing.
Not everyone who test drives a Chevy buys a Chevy, and not everyone who buys a Chevy goes on to buy a second Chevy when th efirst one gets old.
There are many reasons why a person might not continue with any kind of therapy, self-help enterprise, or whatever. Has Buddhism ‘failed’ because not everyone who tried meditation stayed with it for the duration and reached ‘nirvana’? That’s just plain silly, if you don’t mind my saying so. And even if you do mind my saying so. It’s just plain silly and illogical to proclaim that as a test for success or failure of such. It’s worse than silly. It is either delusional or venal, take your pick. Like, “Meditation is an obvious failure because not everyone who starts it doesn’t continue to do it for the rest o his life’! Doesn’t hat sound kinda stupid as a standard? OK, that’s a little strong and possiby unfair to you, so I will give you the option of “possibly mistaken for unspecified reasons”, rather than “stupid” or “delusional” or “venal”. Kind of a plea bargain deal I am offering you. I even put in some weasel words for you. I suggest you take it unless you are enjoying this little demagogic name-calling exercise you are engaged in with me.
IN that case you will just fall back on your usual last refuge of simply calling me names and pretending to laugh, instead of actually responding to any of my points.
“If the written promises of the tech were more aligned with the results, or if the results of the application of the tech were more aligned with the written promises, then the entire subject would be more worthy of serious consideration.”
Yes with this qualification: the tech is worthy of study apart from the hype surrounding it, because there are plenty of people who say they have benefitted by it in various ways. Kind of a “don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater” view. Same with mediitatation, chanting etc etc. They need to be studied in more controlled ways.
After reading Roger’s contribution and then yours, I wonder if memory is changed after retrieval, i.e. retrieved, modified and stored again each time.
You are mocking up disagreement. I simply noted your commentary fit perfectly within the explanations of scientological behavior from the past several posts.
Valkov: “And what do you mean by ‘service starts’? What do those have to do with how many Class VIIIs you had on staff?”
He said “First Service Starts,” which is a stat for a Div 6 service when it is the first service someone does, such as a small basic course or Book 1 auditing. Class VIII’s audit major services on the Bridge, in Division 4.
p.s. That was one of my stats when I was a Public Reg in Div 6. And may I just say in passing that later when I was in the SO and had the opportunity to view all the stats of orgs for any time period, I peeked at mine and noted that I did pretty well by comparison. 😉
Well Valkov, we sure can’t compare auditing to the standards that LRH set for it in his claims for Clear and OT, or even Grade Zero, can we?
Because if we did, then we would see that auditing is a complete and utter failure, never once having achieved LRH’s claims for it.
So you should be grateful at the chance to see that over 90% (and that is a very conservative figure) of the people who have tried auditing never went back for more. At least that will give you some solace that Scientology is not a complete and utter failure.
This is your chance to say that it did something for – at the most – 10% of the people who tried Scientology.
I would take that deal, if I were you, because you are not going to get any one better, that’s for sure.
There is a clear factual reality that anyone with enough experience with the subject can see. Eventually, even Indies begin to see it once they leave the Church and start seeing all the information that they have been cut off from.
Maybe even you, one day, will see this.
And maybe not.
OK, so I have wiped the floors, the ceiling, and the walls with you once again. And now, once more, I am bored.
Over and out, Crunchy.
Alanzo
Hemi, I think you are absolutely right that “middle path” does not equal “objective.” I have read and understand it as between the extremes of subjective and objective idealism. So you are not the “typical scientologist.”
Marildi wrote:
He said “First Service Starts,” which is a stat for a Div 6 service when it is the first service someone does, such as a small basic course or Book 1 auditing. Class VIII’s audit major services on the Bridge, in Division 4.
Not in my Mission.
When a new person walked in for some Book One auditing, they got Class 8 George Seidler as their Book One auditor, whose first cert HUBBARD DIANETIC AUDITOR was dated June of 1950, and signed by L Ron Hubbard. George was a research auditor for Hubbard throughout the 1950’s, and opened his “franchise” in Peoria in the early 1950’s.
And when a new person walked in and was C/Sed for Life Repair, they got a program created by 2 Class 8s, one acting as DofP and C/S, and the other acting as auditor. And they used prep-checking and all kinds of Class 8 procedures to handle Div 6 PCs on Life Repair – much to the chagrin of the St Louis and Chicago orgs who did not have anyone close to as trained as Andy and George Seidler.
And with all that, the FSS to Div 6 to Major, to Paid Comps, and all re-signs were as I said over at least a 15 year period that I had access to as ED: more than 90% of pcs never re-signed for a 2nd service.
Back when I was a pinheaded fanatic, and being lied to by Cary Goulston, my senior at SMI EUS, I was sure that Andy and George were squirrels because the re-signs sucked so bad. It wasn’t until I got out that I had enough data to see that the re-signs sucked EVERYWHERE and that Peoria was no exception.
Let me guess, Marildi – you never did this kind of a stat analysis when you had access to the stats for your continent. So you “would not know” if what I am saying is true.
Right?
Alanzo
And let me also say that George did his SHSBC at Saint Hill, under Ron in the early 60’s, and he did his OT 3 and Class 8 course on the ship with Ron, in the late 60’s.
Just to place that there for you, Marildi, in case you were looking for a way to undermine George’s quals to prop up your belief system that “Scientology Works 100% of the Time When Correctly Applied”.
Alanzo
I think that to understand memory, one needs to understand the process of imagination or visualization. We consciously visualize when we imagine. Recalling memory seems to be an unconscious visualization. The mechanics of it needs to be researched further.
I belive that data is stored in the form of a matrix with levels of different characteristics. The above list (1 to 8) is a hypothesis at this stage, but it shows how data condenses over time in the storage.
When a question is asked, the attention spans very quickly over the relevant nodes of information in this data matrix. the deeper nodes (e.g. Theory, principles, axioms, etc.) help associate the data nodes at the upper levels (Perception, experience, information, etc.) to construct the visualization of stored data relevant to that question.
This comes up as a flash memory or memory offered by the mind. Please see
Mindfulness helps one separate the flashed data from actual perception, and thus, help one become aware of any conditioning or thinking patterns. Mindful contemplation them help sort out the inconsistencies present.
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So – One reason my initial comment was so terse is that there is so much to say, but it really has already been said. No one is going to “prove” the existence of Standard Tech here, on this blog, or anywhere else.
Marty is right in that the way things are now, there is no single Standard Tech if by that you mean a taped set of techniques that take someone from -A to B. There are themes in Scientology that you can benefit from if you do as I have come to espouse, which is to practice Scientology technology with Love and the intention to make things better. As noted from my comment in the previous post, the Code of Honor point “Never compromise with your own reality” can be interpreted as evil or goodness depending on how you want to look at it. Surely, the “it’s evil!” interpretation can be made, considering how many people in Scn have refused to look outside their box and have taken any datum contrary to their world view as a threat to their existence and, I guess, manhood. So, okay – take that interpretation. But, it can also be interpreted in Love, which means what a lot of coaches will tell you, popular songs will tell you, even Victor Frankl will tell you, which is to be true to yourself, don’t go along with the crowd just to go along with the crowd. Don’t throw rocks at Jews or Christians or Muslims just because people tell you they are evil. Don’t share “Hate” on Facebook just because your “crowd” is into the Hate. Or, if you know the best route to LAX from the Valley is the 405 (God forbid) don’t let the cabbie talk you into driving out to the coast first.
To me it is a very positive point of view, but here we see people, including Marty, citing this one line as proof that Scientologists are trained not to look.
You can take anything at all, and interpret it in any way at all. For example, you can laud a high school football coach as being a great mentor to the kids in his program, giving them purpose, and teaching them life lessons that they will take with them into the rest of their lives. OR – you can view the exact same coach, in the exact same program, with the exact same kids, as a demon who is forwarding his career on the backs of kids, and who are setting these kids up for life-threatening injuries and sanity-destroying brain damage, damage that is inseparable from the game itself. Your choice.
That is very much the same with Scientology. You can choose the positive, or you can choose the negative.
No one is going to prove for or against Standard Tech here. It is pointless to do so. To those that are arguing so much in favor of it, do yourselves a favor and stop arguing. Just do it. Just cussing do it. To those who are arguing against it – and are even arguing against the validity of the entirety of Scientology, peace be with you. I truly wish you well and hope that whatever path you are on is fulfilling and meaningful.
And, Marty, despite anything I have posted or comments made, I support the hell out of you and Mosey and your lad. As you noted, no one agrees on this stuff. And no one comes out of Scientology unscathed. We all have our roads to follow.
Mark Patterson
Well, Al, if Class VIII’s were being utilized as Book One auditors, I guess you must have had a very small mission. And no, I did not have anything to do with missions or continents.
As is apparent in almost every post you write, you have a very simplistic way of thinking and don’t even understand the principle of VARIABLES – especially embarrassing for you when you tout “science!”
Valkov wrote:
I’g rather be thought of as a “scientologist”, than as a fawning suck-up like you.
Given my post to Friend, this post of yours says much more about you than it does about me, Crunchy.
And now I am really done with you.
Alanzo
Agreed. Are you also saying that a person NEVER views things as they are in the auditing process? (After all, one can run an incident without ever mentioning the word Scientology)
The answer to the question you ask is “Confusion and Stable Datum”.
Scientology provides lots of “stable data” that helps restrain confusion in a person’s mind. The stable data does not have to be correct to restrain confusion. But it then produces beliefs that may not be consistent with reality.
So a common Scientologist is one whose confusions are restrained by s
Scientology data. Those confusions are not gone. They are still there. They simply exist in a restained condition.
A Scientologist is afraid of being overwhelmed once again by his confusion if he lets Scientology stable data go. So he is strongly attached to Scientology.
The only solution would then be to somehow handle a person’s confusion while letting him hold on to Scientology data. This is a tall order. But it may be accomplished by the person himself if he starts to practice mindfulness.
You are warmly welcome.
Thanks, Hemi
Valkov’s button is hanging out.
All spirituality (includes thoughts) are made up of near infinite harmonics of awareness waves, just like all MEST is made up of near infinite harmonics of electromagnetic waves.
Now what was that fixed idea of yours? You only ask questions when you already have an answer.
Grasshopper, awesome post.
Just one thing I would like to say is that those who are looking to figure out what is beneficial in scientology – or what has been called “standard tech” – should watch the video of Class VIII Mary Freeman, posted above. Here’s the link: https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2014/08/17/standard-scientology-2/#comment-313633
She basically says that it isn’t so difficult to understand what would be standard tech if you know the basic principles it was originally based on.
Ok, thanks for clarification, I get it.
I have much more to say, and a few “meaty” questions for you, but very little time these days. And probably the blog is not suitable for everything.
Will find a way, some day.
When are you due next in Tel Aviv?
Hemi
The people who brought us the Net. Far more value for planet Earth.
There is neither absolute THETA nor absolute MEST. All theta has some MEST, and all MEST has some theta. Theta and MEST as two aspects of anything that exists… even awareness.
The MEST associated with awareness Itheta) is light (electromagnetic wave).
Hi Maril,
You can say that. Another (short) way to describe it for me is: Wait for the mud to sink to the bottom, and the water clear again before you conclude/act irreversibly. And consider that some kinds of mud can take longer than a minute or an hour, to sink. A year may be…or more.
And that hardly anybody IS “the mud” – rather the crystal clear water.
Awareness is known to arise, change and disappear. It may be likened to a disturbance that arises, changes and disappears. We may assume some ground state, which when disturbed gives rise to awareness.
The ground state is the undisturbed state. It is an absence of awareness. It shall forever remain unknown because there is no awareness to accompany it.
The ground state is similar to that sound sleep in which no time seems to have passed. That time is just gone and cannot be found in memory either.
Awareness is a disturbance of some ground state, which is unknowable.
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With awareness there is perception. The perception is followed by recognition of awareness. Awareness, by its very nature, then perceives, and the cycle continues. Thus awareness as a disturbance is an oscillation between perceiving and recognizing.
Awareness oscillates between perceiving and recognizing.
In the beginning there is only awareness. Since there is nothing else to be aware of, there is simply self-awareness. This is consciousness.
The fundamental awareness is consciousness.
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What works in auditing is mindfulness. A Scientology process simply provides a framework within which to contemplate mindfully.
Fire all the meat you desire. In the several posts you have read you have not commented on a single thing though, beyond my not affording your subjective information objective fact status. Tel Aviv? I don’t think that is ever likely.
Coming from the epitome of binary thought.
Hi Hemi,
Beautifully expressed – coming from a high and loving perspective. Evidence of where you are as a being.
As you said, the middle path. 😉
Love, Maril
Nice post Mark.
I agree with you. I do think good things can be taken from Scientology. The whole corporate thing is pretty toxic and I would recommend people staying the hell away.
As you say, almost anything can be taken in different ways. No idea is going to get 100% agreement. Christianity can be looked at as good to some and evil to others, same with psychiatry or astrology or magic or ….
I think it really does boil down to what a person has in their own heart. If they want to get good things out of something then they will find the good in that thing. The people that wanted to con people with Scientology were able to get that too. The cobb apparently wants to get money from it and he is getting that.
I personally think also that many people (including myself) who got burned by corporate scientology were WAY to trusting for too long and depending on the degree of the burns, has created some very strong bitterness, which is understandable.
I think that most of the blame for the burning has to go to the cult of corporate scientology. I also think for people to get over it, they have to take some personal responsibility for allowing themselves to be conned for so long. I see the errors of my own ways. I was WAY too trusting and I should have shouted half of these conmen down along the way but I didn’t. My bad. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
Right you are, Erzsebet.
Your location is wherever you happen to be looking at the moment. At a lower level, it is wherever your attention happens to be fixed.
Too bad that most of us have to slug through all these added complexities to see the simplicities as they are, but these complexities do effectively bar one from seeing the basic actualities. A structured, methodical, gradient means of uncovering and discovery is the only workable route for the great majority of individuals to substantially improve themselves.
A few hours of Self Analysis will do an individual much more good than telling them all the secrets of the universe. Running a few Ruds will improve a persons life more than telling them how particles are created and shared. The PDC lectures were exciting and can guide a researcher in what processes are more likely to produce positive results, and get someone interested in improving his state, but releasing a single engram chain will actually do more real good.
LRH’s greatest contribution may have been his and his cohorts ATTEMPT to create a structured, methodical, gradient system of improvement for the most people possible. It would be a tragedy, an overt of magnitude if we don’t take what we have, as at least a start, and go from there. You know this. I’m actually talking to everyone else. I post my successes in a manner which, I hope is understandable and can assist someone else in improving their state or move in that direction. Some others do this as well.
ARCL, Mark
on this one we can agree that we dont agree. I just cant see that. if that is scientific than that is the reason for my disagreement.
All that is needed is to practice the best that is in Scientology. That is what I am trying to do through KHTK (Knowing How to Know). Please keep in mind that I am just starting out.
I need help from all of you. KHTK is a free subject not owned by anybody. It has no source. It is simply a collection of the best of what is there.
My role is that of an editor.
.
Thanks for the response Conan. I won’t be reviewing that material for awhile. I did the OT doctorate course and really don’t feel like going over it anymore. I do appreciate the suggestion though. 🙂
hehehe.. same goes for you… LoL you have a sense of humor.
I don’t disagree with that, Geir. But that doesn’t discount the value of many other things, such as art or community involvement, etc. – including any advanced in methodologies to raise an individual’s self-determinism and the personal freedom that gives. Like LRH contributed, IMO. And I agree with TreasonousFu*k in his post above as to the idea that even further advances can be made.
I can always tell when I’ve posted something that makes a lot of sense.
V… “The ground state is similar to that sound sleep in which no time seems to have passed. That time is just gone and cannot be found in memory either.”” I never heard or read this bit before, I really like it. this concept is new to me but the second sentence is not a fact ”That time is just gone and cannot be found in memory either.” Of course it can be recalled the theta do not go unconscious. I have written a whole post on sleep state.
in the so called spiritual universe or awareness, time passing of time do not exist since one is in present awareness-having experience and being always in NOW in the moment of experience in that moment has no time therefore past and future dont exist. Clocks-time is for the eyes only. Close those and time stops.
Mark I have to take my Szuszu to the Vet. But I will get back on this and I am making on offer if you care to post your cogs.. your findings in my blog as head posts. I would be honored. Do think about that and let me know. E.
Rick Hanson — who wrote Buddha’s Brain along with Richard Mendius is one of my favorite books.
As a former scientologist I had next to NO idea about the brain. Having heard for so long that it was basically meaningless … or at least not all that important.
Please take 13 minutes to watch this short TED TALK …
And remember — science has determined that we default to the NEGATIVE due to our history and need of fight or flight from time gone by:
Windhorse
Mark, another great post.
On that point about your location being wherever you happen to be looking, I remember something similar in an LRH lecture but I have no idea now which one. So take this as verbal, and I may not have it exactly right, but my Pro TRs Supervisor would sometimes use this as a reference for students on TR 0.
Ron said something like – if you don’t know you’re there, you’re not!
Hi Gene and thank you for your comment. I agree that the internet is valuable beyond measure, however we were talking about a single “Guru”, the internet was not developed by a single guru. The internet is a double-edged sword in itself with hidden data lines. The project was begun by DARPA, for military purposes. The military invests in tools of war, remember that when considering the origins of the internet. Everything you’ve ever said online or looked at online (at least for the past several years) is recorded in a database and if you’re ever “their” enemy (or if you have “unacceptable” political beliefs) they likely have significantly more compromising data against you than all the data in your PC Folders combined.
Thanks marildi 🙂
Thanks for going right on demonstrating your scientology, binary think, for those watching. By the way, did you ever examine the lecture on the Code of Honor for falsehoods and mind tricks?
And let me add that I never said “Scientology Works 100% of the Time When Correctly Applied.” As Valkov has noted numerous times, you continue to repeat such Straw Men fallacies no matter how many times you are corrected on it.
He was right as well about you using the ploy of being a “fawning suck-up,” as has been seen so many times. All part of your craving for the spotlight, I suppose. And that would be giving you the benefit of the doubt.
Tony … sometimes you just make TOO MUCH SENSE! Well said.
Vin, I am reading your blog. Do you intend to continue the story of your life in the CoS?
What reason do I have to think that you are actually interested in a two-way comm with me, Marty?
So there’s no confusion, my comment above beginning with “And let me add that…” was directed at Alanzo.
Thanks Vinaire. Can you explain why the meter would react on analytical thoughts? That may be true, hell it may even be in policy, but I would like to understand why the meter would read on analytical, which supposedly are “uncharged”, thoughts. I could envision it reacting on excited and/or enthusiastic thoughts since I believe that would indicate a surge of available/newly-usable life energy, causing a key-out and raise in Tone Level.
Although I don’t disagree about the potential cause of uncertainty you mentioned, I do disagree (at least in many cases) that an effect of it is “endless auditing of entities.” My reality is that there are usually (or always) a shitload of entities to be audited on a case and that there are very exact reasons why new BTs replace the BTs you’ve already freed.
Well here’s another interpretation of the “Big Blue” on Hubbard Boulevard
Note the facade of the building at the beginning of the clip. The three stooges were on the ‘inside’.
Self-proclaimed ron-bots never saw it coming…… .
Class VII or XIII……..
Larry, Mary or Moe?
I never mentioned apologies or Vinaire or Miraldi in my post. So I am in no position to explain.
marildi,
TIR is virtually the same procedure with different terminology. TIR would “Clear the Planet” way faster than CoS would (if that was its purpose), since its practitioners can and do accept Health Insurance so long as the practitioner is a licensed, mental health professional (which most of them are). However the “State of Clear” is not acknowledged in TIR. A state they call “The Turning Point” is, however. There is no evidence of anyone since 1950 obtaining the State of Clear as defined in DMSMH, or at least Clears cannot know that for sure unless they got rid of all their Bs and Cs (and any other spiritual entities) impinging on them, something which cannot be accomplished using the CoS’ tech and likely cannot be accomplished in full by any technology that exists in PT (my opinion).
TIR/Metapsychology’s approach to cases is a large improvement over CoS in the most important of ways (in my opinion). PCs, termed “Viewers”, only run what they are interested in addressing. The Viewer has the final say on the treatment of his own mind, not a CS.
TIR/Metapsychology has an equivalent (or superior version) of CoS’ Lower Bridge. The largest influence regarding the philosophy of the TIR/Metapsychology practitioner, termed a “Facilitator”, is Carl Rogers. Read “On Becoming a Person” as Marty has suggested if you’d like to understand Carl Rogers’ philosophy.
Jeez Marildi, I thought I had seen you express that Scientology belief, if not outright saying it, then surely implying that if Scientology did not work then it was incorrectly applied.
I could have sworn I’ve seen you express that many times.
OK, so I was wrong about that.
So if you do not believe, as Hubbard said, that Scientology works 100% of the time when correctly applied, then what percentage of the time do you believe that Scientology works when correctly applied?
Alanzo
EH,
Thank you for your incredible insights as well as sharing your experiences with me/us…I certainly wasn’t bored!
I believe there’s an easier way than endlessly auditing entities…in other words I believe a true EP can be reached on this in a reasonable amount of time…but you do seem to enjoy it!
I haven’t read too many comments by you as of yet, but by what I’ve read so far you seem very validative of others! Frequently acking people with comments such as “you are right”…it’s nice to see that!
I was talking to Vinaire about his verbal abuse on forums. You are talking about children being raped. Not sure how you connected these two things Alanzo, and turn it into a case of “The Oracle supports child rapists and pedophiles”, but whatever. Go for it. I’m not justifying it and I didn’t invite you to do it. I think Vinaire saw the humor in my post, and that was MY purpose. Whatever you are going with this, it so some place much further south than the teasing going on between me and Vinaire. I’m willing to take a dip in a conversation, but not as far south as you are heading and dragging your small crew.
Mark, let me sum it as follows:
Standard Tech was a concept of LRH that was very nice. It was an ideal scene held by LRH on the Class VIII course. Let’s not speculate whether Standard Tech exists or not. The is-ness is that the concept of Standard Tech did not materialize to any significant extent, else we should be able to find statistics to back it up.
As Alan Walter noted, the effort to introduce Standard Tech during the Class VIII course ended up in Quickie Grades, and LRH had to eat crow, but, of course, he blamed it on others. The fact is that Standard Tech did not materialize as LRH visualized it on the Class VIII course.
Standard Tech consists of troubleshooting the case so that one could then be run standardly on the Grade Chart processes smoothly all the way up. It required flawless application of Tech. We won’t speculate on why it did not happen. The fact is that it did not happen.
Of course, there is workable technology in Scientology, but that is not we are talking about here. Love and compassion is not part of Scientology. What LRH looked for was cold, hard, mechanical efficiency. Obviously, he failed to train people to a point that they could duplicate his tech easily and then apply it. Ovberboarding on Flagship Apollo did not work.
People should not have outpoints in their thinking to be able to interpret the LRH Tech correctly. At the same time they needed LRH Tech applied to their cases correctly to free them up of the outpoints in their thinking. Obviously, LRH could not come up with a solution to this Catch-22. So, this takes care of your point about correct interpretation of Code of Honor.
I think it all turned out to seem like Scientologists are not trained to look. I think it was a failure to train them to look. Mindfulness was not part of LRH’s approach, even though he talked about obnosis and TR0. In my opinion, the whole approach of LRH was inconsistent and incoherent because it was based on trial and error and not on the scientific method.
Mark, you seem to think that this issue of Standard Tech cannot be properly analyzed, but I think that there are enough outpoints as cited above to analyze it.
.
Thank you Vin ( except ya didn’t have to quote Hubbard) ugh but thanks
Sorry that humor did not translate well from me, through Vinaire, through Alanzo, where it was converted into a dark meaning, to you. I guess you are responding to his translation of my joke to Vinaire , and Alanzo will probably understand where you are coming from. I don’t. You are responding to something Alanzo implied. Not something I meant.
Alanzo,
Very cool. It might have something to do with the fact that we normally have “to put something there” to perceive anyways.
Laughter! Kidding about can be dangerous in these waters!
Thanks TO for the St. Pete Times article. I hadn’t read it before today. What happened to this? Sort of went in reverse, ya think?
“Now, Scientology’s global 10-year plan calls for a mission in every city of 100,000 or more and a church in every city of 250,000 to 500,000, Miscavige said.” (1998, page 4)
I think you followed Alanzo on his literal analysis on my humor. I suggest you return to your original take where you thought I was funny. It was funny. You even said so. It was very witty! And then, the rain came……..
OH MY GOD! This is an absolutely perfect response to Theo! I wish I would have thought of it!
His superior attitude in thinking that we are beneath him never fails to amaze me.
We all know what a damn wog is. The internet is alive and well!
First, I have graduated from scientology’s childish control rules, so please don’t pull your scientology nurse Ratched evaluation routine on me. I checked out of your Cuckoo’s Nest some time ago, in the event you did not notice. Second, I moderate a blog and I comment on comments I find worthy of comment. Third, to put it into your childish scientology control terms, so that you can see that I am not simply rejecting scientology based on what somebody said, I graduated from it having mastered it knowing it better than you ever possibly will, here you go. I would be in grotesque violation of scientology communication rules to respond to just about anything your write; except to point out how you demonstrate the point I am making (not by your demonstrating you duplicate and understand but by the opposite) or to correct frequent false evaluations you make of me or demonstrable false information you cite as Gospel. For the most part none of your communications here are originations by definition, they are mere ‘comments’ designed to disrupt and throw people off, by scientology definition. They demonstrate absolutely no duplication or understanding (nor any sign of any attempt to duplicate or understand) of the posts/essays that they are in response to. It is mostly regurgitated circuitry or quotations from someone other than yourself intended to make yourself right and others wrong and serve at best to divert from the point introduced through the blog. The training routines require me to ignore such chatter originated from the bank, OSA directed and controlled or otherwise. If you want to start critiquing comm cycles, the first thing you need to to do is restrain yourself from snapping terminals and becoming part of the comm instead of originating it and receiving it. Having said all of that, as much as I am not bound to your childish scientology communication rules, I will hold you to them since you are attempting to do as much to me. When you submit your essay listing every single falsehood, illogic, and point of conversational hypnosis contained in that Hubbard lecture you so glibly posted here as the end all on the Code of Honor, you will be in compliance with the ‘two-way comm’ rules you want to lord over me with. Then, we’ll moderate any other originations of yours on a case by case basis adhering to your childish scientology communication rules.
Yes Vin, Marildi was correct. It was Marty used the word “infotainment” I forgot to note the second half about the thread was a comment to Marty. Thanks.
Well, in summer of 1971 I joined Sea Org. I was on Student Visa in USA. In 1972 my student visa ran out. So I was sent to Flagship Apollo. They took away and kept my Indian passport. In 1975, most of us came to Clearwater and set up Fort Harrison as the Mecca of Tech. The Organization helped me get a Green Card to enter back in USA. For that I am grateful to them.
I have the distinction of being assigned to the first RPF that was created by LRH on the ship. At that time I was evaluating in the Programs Bureau that managed all the orgs. The whole Programs Bu was emptied into the RPF. There were many interesting experiences but it will take a long time to document them. Someday I may do that, but not now.
At Fort Harrison, I was very successful as the word Clearer for the Flag’s TR Course. So successful that at one time all students on the course stood up and clapped for me along with LRH. That didn’t go very well for me. I was put under a microscope and then taken off post for squirreling and sent for heavy cramming.
I had another stint in RPF at Fort Harrison. Then in 1983 I was fitness boarded out of Sea Org because after all the efforts they put in me I could meet their expectations of a Sea Org member. I was a black sheep.
That was the end of my Scientology courier. Sorry I can’t give you more than an outline right now.
.
Please see my response here.
https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2014/08/17/standard-scientology-2/#comment-314169
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It’s just like you to jump into the middle of a witty joke and convert the humor into a dark and restimulative button to people. And then attach my name to it as if it came from me. This is the kind of dark, mind fucking matter you choose to lay on the table.
Very nice. Thanks
Thank you, you are very kind and I truly appreciate your ack. I loved every session I ever had and I had that daily since 76, this is my path, my adventure and so far it has been the greatest adventure I have experienced since I have entered into this MEST U. I So I would not change anything I dont want short cuts, and to me having those cognitions over the years brought incredible insight into the MEST U. If I would need to start all over again I would do it without hesitation. But to me finding a consideration, a combanition of considerations and to take those earlier till I find that first postulate which has brought mat mass -experience into existence that journey is beyond value and I cant give on explanation how I feel about the cognition. Each one realigns the other believes I have and that again triggers off the unknown and that again brings new cognitions. I Dont say all my sessions were dreamy, Fairy tale stuff.. no, some sessions were so difficult that I thought I cant get out of them but the cognitions which poured in after worth walking through Hell it self[ I created that Hell in the first place] But my most favorite cheery on the top thing always were the O/W’s !!!!! love that stuff and I miss finding overts but we cant run out of withholds because those are hidden under the valance-personalities behavier patterns… the must we be or we are not accepted, hehehe Now, all I have to add is I miss those long sessions because by now what ever come into my space gets as-ised instantly so, I have lots of time looking for ”trouble” in order to find some stimulation.. bad of me I know , but how could I explain this to any one, hey gang this is only bullbating, so please dont take me to seriously? other things happen when I read post of other persons , I see instantly the out-ness of it.. but I also see what is true, correct and in harmony with the basic-basic realities the Universal Knowledge it self. I mostly go by not the words I read but the under lying energy-mass it sits on.. The problem is that I answer sometime not the words but I address that energy and of course the words are the wrong- altered reality and the owner of those words protest that I only see the negative.. oh those energies can be very dark-nasty-evil but they are sugar coated in nice-nice behavior acceptable words So in the way fault is always mine.. Lets get back to those endless sessions, I already made on arrangement few years back, when I will drop this viewpoint here [body]] I will go to a very different universe where I will start at the [[bottom]] and I was informed that the realities are so different till experienced one cant imagine what it would be like. With a bit of apprehension of course I will undertake that adventure also. Now my dear if you ever care to get in comm. with me outside posting you are free and welcome to do so.
Wow.
“The Oracle supports child rapists and pedophiles”?
My post said nothing like that.
I was going to re-copy it for you to try to clarify, but I read it again and I have to say that I can not believe that you actually think that is what my message to you was.
Sorry but I didn’t get the humor in your post.
I’ll re-read it and see if it was funny….
Nope. Don’t get it.
Two ships, passing in the night, Oracle.
That’s what we are here.
Alanzo
TO…””Why not correct yourself? It only takes a small degree of discipline not to ser fac on others. I mean, why did you have to make an effort to attempt to cause her to have less ARC for herself? Or to cause others to have less ARC for her? What is right about that? How does that help her or you?”” care to explain this to me than?
Jesus –
Here we go. I’m about to be splayed on the table as Oracle starts setting out her knives and revving up her amygdala.
Alanzo
If you want me ” to be real evil” and unruly, you should have just asked.
Mark the way you write is so different from mine and that is the reason I would like if you would post in the blog. the readers have very different realities so yours could be affective too, It would be good adventure all-around for every one of us. ?????? let me know.
I apologised ! sincerely!
I like your stuff too Joe! 🙂
“You believe whatever I write is shaking your believes therefore that must stop at once!”
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Shaking my beliefs? PUHLLLLLLLLLLease.. Ha.. I believe that Hubbard was a lying conman who had children locked in trunks on his ship with chains. He made it up as he went.
Many people have lost their families, their childhoods, their $ .. their minds through this dangerous cult. DM did NOT create Scientology. Hubbard did. DM only took the ball and ran with it.
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” [there is one Marty and there is one Geir the rest who fallow their footsteps are assuming valances. And that is hero worship]”
I’m my own person Elizabeth.
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” Just because of that different realities gained by having lots of sessions-cognitions and now those of you who have not changed fear of these new certainties and that frightens the daylight out of you and you gang up and attack these sources..”
Fear.. I read your blog about fear..The only thing I fear is mice. I don’t know what to tell you. What is supposed to be frightening the daylights out of me?
It would be nice to talk to you without so much Scientologiese made up words. You know like just the way regular people talk.. You know like you see on TV..
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“When you were in my blog reading why did you not left the same post as here? Simply because you have not dared to be alone and you did not felt the groups support and without that you don’t have the voice. So next time when you are attacking do it in my blog be one on one with me. ”
Does it look like I need group support Elizabeth? I didn’t comment because I lurk. I don’t comment on Geir’s because I lurk. It’s not a popularity contest here. So many views. Some I agree with, some I don’t.
People will agree with me or they don’t. No big woop.
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“We are singular each Spirit has their own universe, separate from any other universes! ”
Yes we are different people if that is what you mean. I tend to speak simplistically. Thank you.
WJW ( That means Wow Just Wow! ) tiptoeing by with Ten Foot Pole.
Thanks Vinnie for posting the video. Yep, that’s it.
TF, there is no sharp divide between reactive and analytical thoughts in reality. These are terms devised by LRH for explaining two ends of a thought scale. This is a dichotomy like survive-succumb or good-evil that can be plotted on a graduated scale.
What reads on the e-meter is charge (tension like in a coiled spring). When there is an unwanted condition that is bothering a person, and he is tracking it down to its cause, it easy to get reads on an e-meter. When the most major tensions are resolved, we do not have sharp gradients left to be detected. For example, when one is tracking down outpoints in one’s thinking it is not that easy to get the reads. At high sensitivity, you can have analytical thoughts reading too, because any thought has slight tension.
Here are some more thoughts on the subject of E-meter from the viewpoint of mindfulness (http://vinaire.me/2012/10/05/a-look-at-scientology-auditing/)
An E-meter is used in Scientology to direct a person’s attention in a session. The E-meter is connected to the person. The reactions on the E-meter guide the person where to look. This is fine but it creates a dependence on the E-meter. The E-meter, or the interpretation of its needle reactions, is not error free.
A conflict often occurs when the E-meter reaction indicates something ought to be there, but the person sees nothing. The person, depending on the E-meter, then digs into the mind, and the liability of conditioning comes into play. It then takes ‘CORRECTION LISTS’ to dig the person back out. This is not rare. This happens routinely in Scientology auditing sessions.
Blind digging into the mind, is a liability, which can be prevented with the use of mindfulness.
Such errors may be avoided by simply looking at what is there and not blindly digging into the mind. If nothing is there then one may simply accept that nothing is there. It is my opinion that training on mindfulness may make Scientology processes run much faster and with better results. This may, however, render the E-meter obsolete. In my opinion, E-meter is a marketing ploy. Auditing goes more smoothly and effectively with trained mindfulness in my experience.
That is very “Buddhist”. The Dalai Lama uses that analogy of clear water vs. dirty water.
Please don’t blame my brother, Alanzo.
“… the fact that we normally have “to put something there” to perceive anyways.”
Is that a fact? Could you please explain that. Thanks.
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She may have seen it as a “guilt by association” type tactic, of positioning her in the same post with Rapists etc. After all, you have done that kind of thing to me many times over the years, and are still doing it at times.
I try not to be prejudiced.
I cheer you on!
Marty wrote:
“When you submit your essay listing every single falsehood, illogic, and point of conversational hypnosis contained in that Hubbard lecture you so glibly posted here as the end all on the Code of Honor, you will be in compliance with the ‘two-way comm’ rules you want to lord over me with.”
ROTFLMAO.
Ohhhh… recovering now…
I believe that day will come for Marildi. I believe that Marildi will one day allow herself to see these things in LRH’s writings and tech and lectures.
I do.
Really.
Alanzo
If you are looking for trouble, Elizabeth start studying some Calculus..
In my view the soul disintegrates along with the body. There may be a next life for one of your memories, but there is no next life for you. Sorry!
”suggestion”’ dont lurk in my blog you might catch some of my realities 🙂 and I can not take responsibility for that! 🙂 I am not insured that way… come to think I only hold car insurance because here in BC is the must have for every driver.
I just want to thank you Marty for having the courage and balls of steel to document and write about your process of going from the #2 man in the CoS to an ex-Scientologist. I’ve been reading your blog ever since you popped up very momentarily on ESMB to announce it.
I think it is totally unique in the history of cults to have a member so publicly document their cognitive process and how their thinking evolved since their departure from the controlling environment of the cult. Some ex-members’ thinking, as we have often seen even here in this thread, stagnates after they go so far. You have had the courage and intellectually curiosity and honesty to keep pushing, evolving and seeking the truth.
It’s been an amazing thing to witness and not many people on earth would have the strength to do it so publicly. You have done something vital that so many in the future will learn from.
I worried at times that maybe you wouldn’t keep going, or maybe just go radio silent once you had certain revelations that conflicted with indie establishment, but you never backed down from the truth.
Thank you for sharing your journey with us. We were always rooting for you, even if we got on your nerves some times.
Is that what Marty was asking me?
What I write about scientology is based on 1. My own direct experinece, slight as it may seem to you, 2. myreading of the materials and my listening to lectures by Hubbard, 3. other people’s reports as on this blog, ESMB, Video Interviews, Tony’s site, Mike’s blog, Milestone Two, Pierre’s site, Sylvia’s blog etc etc as wel as some of thebooks like “Blown for Good”. Geir’s sites (obviously these include your volumnious posts, as on Geir’s forum when you avowed your goal was to “outcreate” other posters by having he largest post count, particularly those who had anything positive to say about Scientology)
I have not been through the “scientology tunnel”, I am looking at the front end of it, but I am interested in learning what I can about it. That includes reading /listening to LRH materials directly and forming my own opinions about it. I am also interested in the history of LRH, the Church of Sci, as wel as the broader scene which includes the Freezone, RON’s Orgs, TIR, etc etc etc. I consider ALL of those as part of the ‘world of scientology’. There is more to “scientology” than I see people on this blog speaking of.
Marty relates his experience and thinking through his books and this blog, where he makes thought-provoking posts that have actually helped me to sort out my own scene in life and get a muchbetter understanding of ‘mysteries’ associated with scientology. These mysteries were create by th eCoS, and back to LRH in some cases.
You lost all credibilty with me long ago, but have regained a lot of that in the past year or so. You might notice I do not attack other critics the way I attack you. Do you ever wonder why?
Some people cant be pleased no matter what!!!! and you are one of them persons. if you would have read the posts in the blog than you would read this” I BELIEVE THAT EVERY PERSON IS TOTALLY RIGHT, THEY ARE IN THE RIGHT PLACE AND EVERY PERSON IS WHERE THEY NEED TO BE IN. The reason for that because in the theta universe all is equal, there is no right or wrong, good or bad, important or not. In the theta universe there is no I ME SELF, US, OTHERS, because those titles are invented for communication, and to segregate and every of those are just considerations, illusions. IF you would have read further you would read ” I AM NOT WALKING FRONT OF YOU AND YOU BEHIND ME, and YOU DONT WALK FRONT OF ME: WE WALK SIDE BE SIDE BECAUSE WE ARE ALL EQUAL. ONLY CONSIDERATIONS ARE THE SEPARATING FACTORS. SO my dear BABY it seems you have not been in my blog because you would know my views. BUT DEBATING IS A DIFFERENT MATTER ALTOGETHER. SO I suggest get your self a worthy partner whos realities matches yours and do some agreeing on something.
I actually believe you Al. And I think your interpretation of the meaningof those stats is totally wrong, backwards. I think th ereason people didn’t re-sign for more auditing is because your auditors were good and th epeople were sarisfied and what they perceived as their “needs and wants” were met, their “problem(s)” were solved, and they felt in good shape and felt they did not need any more auditing.
That’s how I see those particular stats of your mission. Every thwra[pist should be so happy to see only 10% of their patiebnts or clients come back for more, after, say, 25 hours of auditing.
So I see that stat of 90% as “90% SUCCESS”, not 90% failure. People ‘coming back’ is not a good stat, in the world of therapy. If a therap[ist does a good job, most people won’t need to comeback. They can go ahead and live life.
You shouldbe proud that mission did so well, and probably because it did have such good auditors.
This is a perfect illustration of why scinetology should not be a “business”, evenmore so than, say, psychology. Sure, psychologists and other therapists need food to eat and a roof over their heads etc, just like we all do. But what Happened in th eCoS is, it was turned into a money-making racket.
A peripheral question is, how hard did your mission push training? Back in the day, my auditor pushed training. He did some auditing but also ran courses. The big push was for the Comm Course (TRs ‘the hard way’) as the intro, then the HQS course, then the HSDC. Academy Levels was after HSDC.
Those dinky Div 6 courses didn’t exist and my own opinion is they were a liability to the orgs when they were introduced and probably prevented more people from going on, than they encouraged. I think the STCC is a good course BUT only AFTER a person did the “zeroes” (OT-TR0 and TR-0 to a ‘major stable win’. Then I found 3-4 of the STCC drills quite valuable to me personally, as I was pretty inept at communicationg with people before.
I never thought “scientology is for everbody”. That is just senseless, and senseless to expect everyone who steps in the door to then sign up for th erst of their lives. That is totally and completely unrealistic.
But he main point is, most of those 90% didn’t want any more auditing at that time because your auditors did a great job and the people hd their problems handled and felt they could carry on themselves. Some of them may have gone back somewhere else years later and got more auditing somewhere. But with the IAS working hard to bankrupt all public everywhere after 1984, I doubt many did.
Hi Vin.
I liked your treatise on the E-Meter. Lots of interesting thoughts.
I use a meter often. It has it’s place for me. It is a tool. The trick is to learn when to use it and when not to. In solo, one must learn for oneself exactly when that is. When looking for a pre mest incident (not the perfect wording) reads are not reliable and it can be best not to have any attention on it. Early basic incidents can be attached to later incidents that have not been fully worked out, so it can be useful in that respect. But the reactions are different, the motion is not the same as other reads. FNs are different when there are still underlying considerations. FNs are different when there are underlying uncertainties. When a Cog. or realization leads to just another fixed opinion, or when the realizations are based on second hand data, the shape and motion of the reactions are different.
I don’t know, but I believe that everyone who uses a meter should learn their own motions and especially when to ignore them.
I WILL NOT DISCOUNT THE USE OF ANY TOOL. NO TOOL IS PERFECT AND I TRUST NONE COMPLETELY. The meter is just a machine. I do not use an axe to butter bread. I don’t use a computer to hammer a nail. I do use a car to travel more than a few miles. I do use an umbrella to go out in the rain. I don’t use it when it’s sunny.
To discount it is just as foolish than to depend on it completely or let it completely guide your attention. To attempt to steer everyone away from this tool can be a misdeed. You have a lot of experience with a meter, but I would look for some inconsistency. I look for outpoints in my methods often, that is one reason for reading this blog and yours.
I have heard that some especially astute and intuitive auditors trust their instincts over the meter and are usually right. These auditors are few and far between. It’s greatest value is that many people can use it to get good gains for many people. Once one becomes more skilled and observant, and when they understand both yours and my viewpoints, the value is diminished. Eventually the value should become zero.
My experience.
Mark
As I said in my post just before this, you are apparently right Al. Standard tech does not work 100% of the time, even when applied by wellttained auditors. It apparently only works 90% of the time when audited by well trained Class VIIIs. If it worked 100% of the time, even that 10% would not have resigned, they would have gone away just as the 90% did, happy and confident of their own abilities to now go ahead and live.
Very succinct. ++ 🙂
Let’s see how well you know your “buttons”. Which button would that be?
I think you nailed head here Dude, nice work
+++
And I think the jury is still out on whether the Internet actually raises awareness levels or expands consciousness. It does make some people feel they can be ruder and say more hurtful things online than they would be saying face-to-face with someone. I do think it has potential for elevating thequality of life on earth though, because of the speed with which information can be passed along. The coming demise of the CoS is proof of that. It is probably the next best thing to telepathy.
” I’m willing to take a dip in a conversation, but not as far south as you are heading and dragging your small crew. ” Oracle
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Alonzo speaks for thousands.. He’s not dragging us anywhere. We are walking right beside him. Some actually in front of him. Ha.. Those that wised up before him and are speaking up and out.
Please don’t ask for Dox.. Good God. He has had many people who have read his words and have/ do agree with him ESMB, Bunker, Rinder’s and Marty’s blog to start. I have followed him since 2001 on ESMB..
Oracle.
My last message to you was short, poorly worded and unduplicatable.
You said:…” I have inverted the O/W routine. Instead of running “what have (I) done, what have (I) with held”, I am running, ” What should (I) have done, what should (I ) have with held….”
I said:…”…overts of commission and omission….”
I was trying to acknowledge and thank you for your seeing this. Especially in running past ethics. To forget about overts of omission on multi flows is to miss out on much of the understanding of how our past played out. I needed to be reminded of that.
Sorry for the poor comm and thanks for the valuable tip.
ARCL, Mark
I’ll let marildi speak for herself, but my answer might be based on your own post upstream of here in which you apparently witnessed a 90% success rate at the Peoria mission when you were the ED there and had two ClassVIIIs, one of them directly trained by LRH, auditing new people there. They apparently did such a good job that 90% of their pcs did not feel the need for any more auditing after what? Two or three intensives or so?
When was that, by the way?
Thanks for posting htis Vinnie! It makes you seem like so much more a real person insted of an axiom calculator. That’s important I think.
Mark I think it’s worth considering. Might be the right venue, based on reading the things you sent me to read.
Quite a statement, Marty.
Marildi’s practical viewpoint and inquisitive nature has been of help to me more than once.
Discussion turns into debate from time to time, one of the purposes of your site. It’s the nature of the beast. I thank you for the chance to earn your ire from time to time. Since I don’t receive notifications of my own comments, I never know if I have been throttled. If not, Thanks.
Mark
Why thank you Marildi. (Pronounced ‘wy’ in southern slang. It does not mean ‘why’, it simply emphasizes the words following.)
I read more than one success story long ago in which the individual would spread out, exterior, over a large area yet could see every inch of the area as though they were looking directly at it. I once had a similar experience in which I could see every bit of an entire room at once. My attention was very un fixed for a moment.
The things which fix one to a body, space, object, identity, or even a moment in time, are extremely numerous and varied. They cross chains, so to speak, like a pile of spaghetti the size of a house. It is not by accident. Pushing in anchor points is not the half of it, hence the temporary freedom when one aspect of fixed attention is realized. There are many, many others to take it’s place. This is one area where repetitive implants play a major part. And they were done very cleverly over an immense length of time for many different reasons. Being tricked into having successes at fixing your attention is a big thing. To say I was 1% done would be an exaggeration. But I’m slugging through. Every bit I learn helps. I have time.
ARCL, Mark
Thanks for posting this information T-Fu*k. I live near the Association HQ and am considering doing a workshop next year. I’ve been out of the therapy game for many years but some interest has been rekindled recently. I’m interested in Idenics also, but am in no shape to go to Colorado.
Theo, it could also be called a free flow of ideas from people who think for themselves. That which some call “banky” is adult dialog with free expression; unlimited and questioning everything.
Here in the great and open wog world “open mindedness” is a virtue not a flaw.
Enjoy Vinaire
How would I know? The CoS stopped communicating with me after I got my money on account back. They don’t send me a shred of promo even. Love it. Took me off ALL their mailing lists from several orgs without my even asking. And in fact they weren’t communicating with me except to try to sell me things I didn’t want/need at exorbitant prices. They may have just as well used an autodialer with recorded sales pitches on it.
In the case of Japan, the ENTIRE COUNTRY was a ‘cult’. Notice th efirsr for letters of the word “culture”? Their entire culture was a ‘cult’. Their Emperor was descended form the Sun God who had created the Japanese islands in the first place. Actually there was a Sun Goddess too.
Many ‘cultures’ were basically ‘cults’. There was Yahweh, and Allah, and and and and, what would Jesus do?
I asked which cult because I meant “which cult”? Scientology? Democracy? Capitalism? Consumerism? Racism? Feminism? Which cult?
How can anyone have a discussion with you when you think you are mini-socrates and answer a questuon with a question or simply evade?
This is a false staement because my view is that ‘standard tech’ is a term that applies only to auditing tech, so whether I am “justifying’ is irrelevent to the discussion.
Good one! Wow! I had not seen that! Hey, nice to cross your path again.
As I showed in a couple of posts above, your own stats from the Peoria Mission can be interpreted to mean the auditors you had, both ClassVIIIs, one trained by LRH, auditing new public were so good that 90% of their pcs never had to come back for more auditing. Because their ‘needs/wants handled’ were actually handled and they left with increased confidence in their ability to get on with their lives, and feeling no need for more auditing? That’s a 90% SUCCESS rate, not a 90% failure rate. But in fact your stats as you report them may be showing a 100% success rate by your ClassVIIIs because after all 10% came back for more scientology, including perhaps training?
Somewhere I read the data or heard on a lecture that the mind makes about 25 0r 30 Pictures in a second that it store than either in the Analytical or reactive mind. Did anybody of you ran across this Datum while in Scientology or do I have a false Memory ?
Scratch that post of mine. Let me instead ask, does it hanging out like that embarrass you? Do you not want to be seen with me anymore?
Yes, you are being kind to Friend. The question is, Why?
Hemi says.. “Marty. you are changing your mind, extremely sometimes. Ron did too, whether admits it always or not. ”
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” Rather than curse the darkness, light a candle.”
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Hemi.. I can see Marty’s candle from here. He went through the darkness into the light. He needs to be congratulated! Others went before him and others will follow.
Happy Days are what we say over here too Sam..
Amen Justin and Roger! Absolutely agree 100% Life is wonderful without dwelling on Stats.. etc. How freeing, huh?
Those? RIP all who have died at the hands of Scientology. There is valuable information out there about these people who fell for this evil cult’s trap.
You are a Hubbard apologist ..It is 2014 and the internet is here with eye witnesses and facts.
How many have had psychotic breaks because of the mind controlling Tech? Wake up Val. It is time to face facts.
Yep! Flag down was great!
Val says..
” I’g rather be thought of as a “scientologist”, than as a fawning suck-up like you.
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Val..Who the hell is Alonzo being a fawning suck-up to?
Good God.. I have only known him to share information regarding his path He is a kind person who has helped many to be free from the clutches of Scientology.
Standard Scientology is ”do it for the preclear” .. that is also LRH standard before he gave the standard tech as the only tech for everyone .. he could simply give a session out of heart without all this rules he later give you for study .. if you read the Dianetic book in 1950 .. you were on your own feet and did apply it or not .. if you do it still from heart you will cause wins, if you do it under the pressure to deliver only standard tech .. you may be a little bit confused .. you now do it for the standard tech .. and this is surely not the same as do it for the preclear ..
There is a part involved which made me again and again wonder. You should watch the tone scale of the preclear .. but it is written in book two .. but you may spot the tone level or not ..you can err like mad and you can start to do something for you .. not for the preclear ..
LRH was able to get somebody in communication when he wanted it. You have to have very sensible for doing it .. if you are ruled with standard tech procedures you are merely blind .. you have a standard procedure out of evaluations which are possibly untrue .. misplacing attention to something which is basically not there ..
What I mean is, if you pick up a wrong item .. you have long work to get it back to the right one .. standard tech should be that you get the right item in first place .. but when reading and hearing all explanations about from LRH it is not really clear how you get the right item .. following there is no standard tech possible ..
What do you do when you run into a SerFac on Grade 0 .. it can be easily done .. what do you do when you run in a big BT Cluster on Grade 0 .. this is more easy than LRH has ever explained .. so on standard tech is the wish that everybody is like everbody else ..
I mean you can ask ”is it you who is bored” .. basically it is all nothing else than communication .. if you can do it, you are for the preclear .. and this is standard Scientology .. nothing else .. and this is not the same as standard tech ..
Tom.. Wow that is a classic. Hilarious! I almost put a lot of explanation marks on it. I’ve been hanging around Scientologists too much! ha
marildi, this blog has become a waste of time to follow ever since your lame stream of consciousness was ratcheted up to a river of diarrhea.
🙂 It’s one you are not aware of.
Just be mindful, my friend.
I remember Hubbard talking about it. I also remember thinking that 25 is also the frames per second needed in a projector to give the impression of continuous motion from sequential still pictures. I am sure that’s the source Hubbard used as his hypothesis.
I do not agree with Hubbard’s hypothesis. We are not talking about a movie projector, but visual perception of the real world. We see in terms of pictures, but they get stored as increasingly condensing concepts. Nature uses some algorithm for it. The reverse algorithm then produces the visulization from stored concepts.
The storage seems to be in terms of data points cross-indexed according to some logic (relationships). Visualization occurs when attention plays on this matrix. and the relationships among data points. This is just a very skimpy outline of what may happen. It simply boggles mind to think what may be going on.
Hubbard’s assumption was that all perception gets stored as pictures. I do not agree with that.
Valkov, have you read the following?
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Nope. But you are welcome to explore the above through meditative absorption.
MARK: “I have heard that some especially astute and intuitive auditors trust their instincts over the meter and are usually right. These auditors are few and far between.”
I believe that one can be trained to develop such instincts. All it requires to define “valid recall” correctly and learn how to recognize it. Here is the exercise for it.
Once a person can comfortably recognize items in the present per Being Objective, he may start on the mindfulness exercises per The 12 Aspects of Mindfulness. Only then may he be asked to recall items from the past.
For therapy purposes, an accurate recall is a response given by the mind to some item or question. It is not digging into the mind, or imagining what might have happened. It is letting the mind respond, and recognizing when there is no response.
As a first step, the person needs to recognize that an immediate response in the mind to some stimuli is a valid recall. When a person feels that there is something and simply waits patiently for the response to emerge, then that is a valid recall also. If no response comes up on its own, then there is no valid recall. That may happen when a recall is there but it is not available at that moment. It may be available later.
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Very good points! The real workable tech will be flexible and applicable to a wide variety of differences in cases.
Here is my critique of Scientology:
1. Scientology consists of much ground breaking work by Hubbard.
2. Scientology introduces a whole new plateau to addressing the problems of the mind.
3. The work on this breakthrough is, however, far from complete.
4. The success from the application of Scientology is far from consistent.
5. Any lack of success gets blamed on the practitioner of Scientology.
6. Unmanageable difficulties seem to exist in the application of Scientology.
7. Correction lists have become a part of “Standard Scientology.”
8. A closer look at Scientology shows a lack of application of the principle of poka-yoke.
9. Mindfulness is the key to successes in Scientology auditing.
10. Scientology does not seem to put emphasis on Mindfulness.
11. Scientology takes up aspects of mindfulness on TR0, Obnosis, and Data Series, but it fails to treat mindfulness systematically, and fails to highlight its importance in auditing.
12. The principles of minfulness were first elucidated by Buddha 2600 years ago.
13. Mindfulness seems to provide poka-yoke to Scientology processes.
…
You have surprises waiting for you than! Because we are infinite..like it or not! 🙂 enjoy !
Elizabeth said..
” The reason for that because in the theta universe etc..”
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Well Elizabeth.. this is where we differ. I do NOT live in a theta universe. That is Hubbard’s Bull Sh*t speaking. I live on Earth.
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And one thing I do not do. I do not lie. I have been on your blog. I know your views. Trust me. Well, ya don’t have to trust me. I’m a lowly SP..or Wog or I enturbulate. ( As you Scn are prone to say)
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” I AM NOT WALKING FRONT OF YOU AND YOU BEHIND ME, and YOU DONT WALK FRONT OF ME: WE WALK SIDE BE SIDE BECAUSE WE ARE ALL EQUAL. ONLY CONSIDERATIONS ARE THE SEPARATING FACTORS.”
I do not know what ” Considerations are the separating factors” means..
but I honestly I can’t imagine us being in the same place to be walking near each other so that is kind of a moot point don’t ya think?
You know what Elizabeth..This Scientology.. How’s it working for you? You don’t seem very relaxed when you talk to others who don’t share your points of view.. Just sayin.
Not my calling…. I dont find beauty in that..
Yes, All this endless talk about Statics, Mindfulness, etc,, is a luxury to indulge in only after you have handled your case. 🙂
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Only a Scientologist can ask such a weird question. What is wrong with being kind?
Let go of that anxiety and apprehension. Mindfulness exercises will help you.
Obviously, it is false for you. It is not false when looked at with mindfulness without the “extreme logic of Scientology” filter.
Valkov, I am not good as you are in evading. 🙂
[I am using the Marildi approach here.]
I remember, when I first got introduced to Scientology, one of the “Aptitude Test” used by Scientology implied “close mindedness” as a virtue. I made a mental note of it then as something very odd.
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This thread is getting too long and slow.
By the way looking for challenge is not as same as looking for trouble.
I think you can do the Idenics Course on line now.
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you are what you told me you were. so move on girl.
I have had my surprises. Now its your turn. You have no idea what is waiting for you. 🙂
Meditative absorption tells me that it is an assumption of self-conditioning sort.
it is about 1000 pages if you print it out ..
Attacking is not good. Mindful discussions are much better and productive.
http://vinaire.me/2014/08/01/khtk-sessions/
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I remember when Marty used to block my posts completely on his blog.
Marty has certainly evolved. 🙂
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The Internet was created by many. Some stood on the shoulders of many others, although Tim Berners-Lee stood taller than most and would be the guru of the Net we know today. This is not really any different than Scientology where Ron stood on the shoulders of so many others, ripped methods off left right and center and seldom gave credit where credit was due. But the end products are in two very different leagues. The Net has impacted society immensely. Scientology, on the other hand, is less than insignificant. And in few years it will fade even as a social joke. The Net will be with us and shape almost every aspect of our future. So, I’d say there are dozens of gurus (if that’s what you are seeking) in computer science that each and every one has had a greater positive impact on society that LRH ever had. As for a double-edged sword… Scientology is certainly that.
Aaaaaaaahhhhhhhh …..!
Vinaire,
You seem to be cherry picking Buddhism’s basic approach to Mind, which is done through study and meditative practice. It is a guided but subjective approach, it is not done by endless discursive dialectic.
Also you seem to be bent in shoving on everybody’s faces your materialistic speculations foisted as scientific facts.
In a sense I think you are returning the flow that was once run on you by fanatical Scientologists. I was not then, nor I’m now one of them.
Marty brought up subjective/objective considerations as to how Scientologists are for the most part incapable of separating those. And that Scientologists seem to lack the most basic common sense that if you are approaching your mind, whatever you find should be viewed by you as subjective phenomena.
Well, I took a look at Kant (thanks Marty) and I found his observations on how to approach the realms beyond the body senses extremely sane, very rational and appropriate to this discussion.
No doubt Ron-The Grouch would have been displeased with Kant’ s very humbling observations, as they would have put an end to his fraudulent religious/scientific crap Hubbard was running on his trusting marks.
But Kant’s caveats applies as well to materialistically obsessed people who are bent on invalidating and closing the door to intuitional gnosis.
Here is a link to some of Kant’s observations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noumenon
So, what is your understanding of Kant?
Please give the points relevant to “the fact that we normally have ‘to put something there’ to perceive anyways.
I hope you will keep to the topic. 🙂
Conan posted:
Here is a link to some of Kant’s observations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noumenon
Hello, Noumenon!
(It’s an old Immanuel Seinfeld joke)
I love Kant. Yes he Kan!
Alanzo
Agreed,Tony. People are trusting – and I would rather have a world of trusting people who occasionally get burned, than a world of cynics. I know a lot of people who have the “one strike”‘ rule. They give their all to the relationship (whatever it may be), and if the other person screws them, it’s over. Harsh, but clean.
I wouldn’t accept the invitation to useless debate. Your messsage, as is Kant, is perfectly clear to me.
Thank you, Marty. I couldn’t find anything in Conan’s response that was relevant to the point that was being challenged.
No, I wont. Thanks Marty.
Thanks, Vin. The thing is, Scientology is hard. It is also a selection of coordinated technologies. The mark of a Scientology tyro is that they latch on to one slice of technology and explain the whole world with it. This is true of any of it: Engrams and locks, or Service Facs, or the Cycle of Action and objectives, or TRs, or Problems processes, or OW, or Int, or Study Tech, or product debug, or the data series, or GPMs, or Ethics, or whatever. I would always tell where someone was on their Levels or BC by what they were excited about and what solutions they were presenting.
When I did my initial training, I saw Scientology and Dianetics as “islands” of tech that were all-inclusive in themselves. So, OW and Ser Facs and PTS-ness were each separate pools of tech.
It wasn’t until well into my BC that I started to see connections between what appears to be contradictory or unrelated technologies. As I worked though it, I saw the connections between, say, PTS-ness and, say, Creative Processing. It took years. And it was fun for me, but you have to put in the work. The connections are always there – and you can eventually see why hammering on one technique could case problems when another approach could work. There is a comment in here somewhere about how bad it would be to force a person with PTSD to recount their traumatic incidents over and over. And that can be true, certainly, and in that case, running Dianetics may not be the correct approach. There are other approaches. And – to be clear – there are approaches outside Scientology that can help with PTSD. I think if you look at the history of research Ron did, it was a study in different ways to approach getting people to better deal with their lives – Ron called it undercutting, but another way to look at it is using different approaches to get to the same goal.
We can certainly analyze what can make up “Standard Tech.” This blog is not the place – and anyway, we are past the point where a central authority can make the call. For me personally, one of the key benefits of ditching the church is also ditching any “authorities” on what is and what is not Scientology, or valid techniques, or valid world-views. I decide, based on my observations. And I have enough faith in people to know that those people who use what they got out of Scientology well and wisely will end up with their own viewpoints on what works and doesn’t work – and we end up with a huge Venn diagram of Scientology technology (and other technologies) in which each person is their own circle, and their circle will overlap with others more or less. You could almost call it “Cloud Scientology.”
BTW, Compassion and Love are a key part of Scientology – Ron is too damned clinical about it and he called it ARC.
Yes TO, been a long time. Thanks again.
It was a joke Vin, a play on the “XYZ PDQ” meme, you know, like you were doing yourself. At least I took your post about my “button showing” as a joke from you. 🙂 I guess I shoulda used a smiley with it,
Mindfulness is to the field of Spirituality, what the scientific method is to the field of Science.
With the scientific method great strides have been made in the field of Science. Similarly, I believe, that with mindfulness, great strides can be made in the field of spirituality.
This is not materialism taking over spirituality as some would say. Of course, there are going to be demands to be more objective, but this has nothing to do with materialism, But it has to do with explaining inconsistencies, or outpoints.
For example, in THETA-MEST theory of Hubbard states,
“Scientology is essentially a study of statics and kinetics. If anything, it is more exact than what are called the physical sciences, for it is dealing with a theoretical static and a theoretical kinetic which are at the opposite ends of a spectrum of all motion.”
It is consistent because the same fundamental characteristic must apply to all points of a spectrum. THETA (individuality) is as much a consideration as MEST (matter, energy, space and time) is. Both THETA and MEST are manifestations of considerations.
However, Hubbard then states:
“It is now considered that the origin of MEST lies with theta itself, and that MEST, as we know the physical universe, is a product of theta.”
This statement is inconsistent because it assumes that one end of a spectrum produces the other end.
I come across such off the wall statements, such as,
CONAN: “It might have something to do with the fact that we normally have ‘to put something there’ to perceive anyways.”
How is this a fact? I find Scientology, full of such great sounding pronouncements without any firm basis.
Even if something is subjective, it should not be inconsistent with what is observable in the physical or mental universe.
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Valkov, I must say that I am finding you more relaxed, tolerant, and humorous. That is a very good sign, my friend. 🙂
Baby, Al and I have been at it for years starting on the now non-existent forum Geir ran for awhile. At one time we were calling it the “Al and Val Show”. It was our version of the Smothers Brothers as performed by Don Rickles and Attila the Hun. It has had its ups and downs.
And yes, Al has a big heart and is too hard on himself as far as his involvement with scientology goes. He has stabilized quite a bit over the past 2 years or so, but still posts some faulty logic at times. As I probably do too. He was, and is much less so today, a competitive attention sponge. He coined the term “thought grenade” and used to toss them into any discussion simply for the sake of doing so to make a big splash. He also liked to end his posts with what he called “zingers”. A one-man stand-up act. So I have been throwing rotten tomatoes at him for years. And he, back at me. Much less so these days, because we have both ‘matured’ – somewhat`. I was very naive about Scientology 5 years ago because I had had little or no contact with it for about 20 years.
I had no idea of how much it had changed since 1970. I did know it was off the rails and that’s why I had not continued in it myself.
You are a cheerleder for your team and that’s OK. “Everybody’s got to be something”, is a saying around here.
You can call me an apologist for LRon abd that is sometimes true. When I see or read sonmething egregiously slanted about him, I have and will continue to post a different view. “It’s a free country” is another saying.
I may try a detailed reponse to your other post as time allows. Then you will have more ammunition to use in your arguement with me. If you grossly misrepresent my views, I guess I might call you fawning suck-up too. Except I don’t do that kind of thiong much anymore, except occassionally with Al. And I need to look at that, and see if I am just doing it out of habit. He does make a lot of good posts with a lot of good points and I should probably go easy on his infrequent errors.
Best post ever. Your grasp of the whole is obvious, and it is also exhibited in how you express yourself.
I read it someyears ago. Have you added to it? I guess I’ll check.
I was going to add that everyone should have done the BC, but not everyone would (or did) put it all together the way you have. Good to be reminded there are folks like you around.
Thatis not rue at all, about “only a Scientologist….” It is simply a very cynical question that anyone cynical about human nature might blurt out. I do have a very cynical side to my personality. Al did not really deserve it, excepot to whatever extenet he possibly really is a fawning suck-up. Perhaps that is side of his personality? In which case that would bring out my cynical side….. Please realize I am totally bullshitting here…… Except about my occassional cynicism. It’s like I have cynical wolf sitting on one shoulder, and a ….. Shut up Valkov……
You are much better than I at it.
Thanks I’ll check that out. But I do find a big different between virtual and ‘hard copy’.
I meant category.
Sorry yeah, the blog is booming. Marty puts a right item out there and it’s like, BANG! I’m just a small town gal getting lost in this crowd. Laughter!
That occurs naturally.
It is as Conan stated it, IF the true basic cycle of action really is “CREATE CREATE CREATE CREATE – CEASE CREATING.
There is no inconsistency if there is, as Boehm thinks, an “implicate order” and an “explicate order” in which every point contains or reflects the whole
Well, that’s what hangin’ out with Marty can do. Credit where credit is due!
Wow, I’m really getting the hang of what you are doing and achieving in your research. Awesome! Thanks for all your posts. You’ve expanded my appreciation of the possibilities.
And I must say, you’re getting there yourself!
Val. You say Al is an “attention sponge” I think you have him beat for attention and I would replace the word sponge with, not a nice word. I’d guess that if all the comments were counted, you would have the most. Coming from someone who hasn’t a lot of actual knowledge or experience of what most are saying. Maybe someone is whispering in your ear, or you have a desire to be known for…. only you have the answer too that. It seems that you are doing the same here as you did on Geir’s blog. Sorry Val, but it’s just a little too much blah, blah for me. I do appreciate some comments you’ve made, but your fun game with Al is OLD and not even funny.
TF, thanks from me too!
Good clear post Grasshopper. And sure, if one doesn’t any any concept of “overrun”, repeating any incident or process can lead to bad indicators. I’m currently overrun on watching TV. And getting there, as far as reading and posting on these blogs!
Yes, he did say that, Roger. From the Tech Dictionary:
TIME TRACK…3 . the endless record, complete with fifty-two perceptions of the pc’s entire past. The time track is a very accurate record of the pc’s past, very accurately timed, very obedient to the auditor. If motion picture film were 3D, had fifty-two perceptions and could fully react upon the observer, the time track could be called a motion picture film. It is at least 350,000,000,000,000 years long, probably much longer, with a scene about every 1/25 of a second. (HCOB 15 May 63)
MARK: “BTW, Compassion and Love are a key part of Scientology – Ron is too damned clinical about it and he called it ARC.”
Are you joking? That was not my experience either with LRH or in Sea Org. Yes, I found genuine sincerity and desire to help in the far away itty-bitty Cambridge mission that I loved, but the more I got closer to the source the more I found the compassion and love missing. I am just being mindful (see things as they are) here.
ARC is nowhere near the idea of compassion and love. Marildi is an expert on ARC but I have never felt real compassion or love from her. She is critical of the Discussion Policy because it is not written by Hubbard, and not for any other reason that I know of. I don’t even know if she has read that policy because she refuses to discuss its contents.
Now getting back to Standard Tech, the concept of it is pretty simple as defined by LRH in the first Class VIII lecture. Standard Tech consists of troubleshooting the case so that one could then be run standardly on the Grade Chart processes smoothly all the way up. It required flawless application of Tech.
You are saying that LRH materials are complex. And that is why it is difficult to define “Standard Tech”. But that state of materials is the result of continual trial and error and not being stitched together well. The difficulty is not with defining what Standard Tech is. LRH already gave a functional definition for it. The difficulty is in making that standard tech materialize.
So, the real issue is that it is impossible to bring Standard Tech into existence the way LRH materials are configured. LRH’s own effort to push it through resulted in Quickie Grades.
So, the fact is that “Standard Tech” has existed only as a concept, and never in reality.
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Acknowledged. I thought I made clear I was referring to the Al of Geir’s Forum days several years ago? I guess not clear enough.
Yes nowadays I bloviate quite a bit. Learned it from Al, actually. Al did say he was out to beat everyone else’s post count on that Forum.(The Scientology Forum. Remember that one?) Nowadays Al posts much less and his posts are often well thought out.
I think it’s sweet of you to step up on Al’s behalf, as I have been pretty hard on him recently, but it was for just a couple of his posts, not for all of them.
I have a lot to sort out, about myself, and your feedback is appreciated.
Basketbaljane, You me Marty and the whole world have this Song !
It is the result of Discussion Policy and Mindfulness.
Are you sucking up to Marty now, as you were accusing Alanzo for being?
Is there anybody creating or do things simply appear?
🙂
I agree with almost all of this, except where you say “Stand.. tech NEVER existed in reality”. I think it has existed in reality, as in the two Class VIIIs cited by Al who auditied at the Peoria mission, the guy who audited me for Life Repair, and other individuals did deliver it. But it certainly never became very commonplace or usual in practice.
Other wise I like your post a lot.
No, it is Marildi. 😉
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Thanks Vinaire. An interesting outline!
I think your argument about statistics showed how ignorant you were on that subject. Scientology “logic” is quite interesting. It operates on attack and justification.
You really need to do those mindfulness exercises. 🙂
Nietzche,
There is no such thing as “Standard Scientology” unless you take the simple definition of standard as being “a definite level or degree of quality that is proper and adequate for a specific purpose.” That has a degree of workability.
Saying “hello” with a lot of honest affinity might be the standard procedure for certain people if the purpose is make them feel welcome and comfortable.
But what’s that got to do with scientology? Most five year olds have realized that datum. And it certainly isn’t part of the scientology world today. It was 40 years ago when I was first involved. We all did it. I liked it. But it gradually disappeared from “standard scientology manners.” Today it’s little more than a covert friendliness just before you ask for the person’s money…standard scientology circa 2014.
Personally, I think the whole concept of “standard tech” is a red herring. And I think a major flaw in the concept stems from a very incorrect statement made by Hubbard and adopted as a LAW by every auditor and C/S. The statement is “there are no different cases.” Is that really true?
Every person one way or another mocked up his own “case” and he can bloody well mock the bugger up any way he wants to. And many people that I’ve audited mocked theirs up in strange and wonderful ways that will baffle anyone (including themselves) possibly for no reason other than to ensure their mental possessions have real permanence.
My experience as an auditor is the exact opposite of Hubbard’s statement. Everyone has a different case. Everyone has a different purpose. Everyone has their own unique path. Trying to fit everyone on the planet into this neat little box of philosophy and practice is a losing proposition. The evidence of the veracity of that statement I believe is all around us, especially as we look into the cult in its current incarnation.
Hubbard isolated a number of key concepts that are useful to many people when you are trying to help them overcome things they want to overcome, or improve things they want to improve.
For those who hear about the The Bridge, and it indicates as a road out for them, they will have wins enough to keep them going. The general outline of the bridge will get them where they want to go. They should be given the truth at the outset though; that clear as defined in DMSMH and OT as outlined in many tapes and grade charts are a postulated reality which never came to fruition. Be honest about what can and can’t be done.
If the auditor and C/S don’t suppress that person he’ll make some headway. If the guy can side-step the land mines of other-determinism which come his way, he’ll get out when he’s done with that journey.
There are a number of psychologists whom I consider to be more effective in helping people than many of the “standard auditors” that I know. They have a keener insight into people’s spiritual travails and a stronger intuitive understanding of how to help the person sort it out.
I’ve also met and worked with some auditors who have an uncanny ability to help a person using Hubbard’s tech. Most if not all of these auditors would be considered squirrels by the cult and by some other auditors.
Who cares, as long as honest help is offered and honest, positive results are gained by the person seeking help?
Standard scientology used to (in my naïve little mind), include:
We of the church believe that all men have inalienable rights to their own religious practices and their performance, and
We of the church believe that all men have inalienable rights to think freely, to talk freely, to write freely their own opinions and to counter or utter or write upon the opinions of others.
In my mind, since those two statements were obviously never anything other than lip service, there never has been any such thing as standard scientology.
So I say again, take what you need or want and leave the rest.
Anonymous owes him
OK Vin, I think you are ignorant about teaching others effectively. You wil never get anywhere with me by telling me ‘how ignorant” I am. I guess to drive the point home I wil have to comment on your posts from now on by noting how “ignorant you are and then giving you irrelevant advice. As though practicing mindfullness wil somehow ediccuatr me about statistics! How ignorant of you. I think you need to wordclear “statistics” and also “mindfullness”. It will make you less ignorant by two wirds, anyway.
You could have posted something helpful about th efield of statistics, but you were too ignorant to do so. Perhaps because you really don’t know? Or, you know but you actually would rather keep me in the dark? There, you’ve brought out my cynicism about your character. And you like to refer to yourself as my ‘friend’. Try wordclering ‘friend’, maybe?
Marildi, Lots of us benefited from the Tech while in the Tech. We have covered this thoroughly dozens of times on Geir’s and the reasons why and how a frame of reference provides the relativity. Consistency within one frame of reference does not imply consistency within another frame of reference. When we understand this fact then we stop trying to make “one size fits all” lives and stop being critical of ourselves for changing. Life is change.
Why don’t you ask Marty if he thinks that was what I was doing with that remark?
I think you should suck up less to Al.
“There is of course that sneaky factor that on some people almost anything will work. ”
I am a bit like that. When trying self-improvement drills I usually have the expectation that something beneficial will happen and it normally does, at least in my subjective reality.
Agreed, plus there is simply one’s attitude toward self betterment such as looking for any possible excuse to find the value in self betterment of any kind.
Well said, LDW.
He funny
lol – I’m with you.
. . . and when we look closely, this might accurately be said of anyone. Most certainly it was true of Hubbard.
Well, Vin, I wasn’t talking about the SO. I am taking about Scientology and what the ideal ought to be. If you go into session as an auditor with the Nazi-like “cold chrome steel” idiot-valence, you will get pretty much nowhere with the PC. You need to have love and compassion to audit anyone successfully. You need to have love and compassion to be a good case supervisor, and good course room supervisor, and a good cramming officer, and, actually, a good ethics officer.
I have no idea where the SO nazi-like visage came from except to say that it looks to me like a child’s idea of what a competent, effective, brook-no-bullshit kinda guy would act like. You know, like Goebbels or Himmler. You could argue that Ron said to act this way, and I would argue differently. But all that is moot, because we both can agree that acting like a complete asshole is not the way to run anything.
Nothing I read in Scientology ever said to act like an asshole. Now, it is true that Ron admired people who got shit done. And sometimes you have to kick ass to get shit done. But it is clear from all that I read of Ron’s writing both on Scn and in his fiction that the ideal of the guy who gets shit done is like the tough drill sergeant who puts his recruits through hell but who everybody loves in the end. The problem is that the SO ran with the “being an asshole” thing rather than the “tough as nails but does the right thing so people love him in the end” thing. They can look similar, but the difference is the results – and the intention behind the actions.
Seriously, the biggest critics these days are the guys who ran the camps. But I digress.
I read the transcript to the 1st Class VIII course tape. Thanks for posting it. It is clear to me what he meant. Very clear. I agree that the difficulty is making Standard Tech materialize. Because you have to do the work. It is not just flawless application, but also having the breadth to pull the correct action at the correct time. This is why Ron wrote about not calling something “background” data. You can pull from anywhere to get the case back to battery – but you have to know it’s there.
Back to your point on ARC – you are right that Ron nor his materials pushed this enough – that you need to apply Love and Compassion to life. It would have been far better to just go for it and use the word “Love” instead and deal with it. It needed to be emphasized much more than it was. Much more. But regardless, you can’t be successful with Scientology tech without it. My compassion and love for the entire human race only grew and grew the more I progressed. I am sad that others did not have the same experience, because, really, people are awesome, and I hate that people have to go through hell.
That is the $64 question, isn’ it? And is it susceptible of proof or falsification? Many would say no. That leaves intuition and insight, “gnosis” in other words.
I think Boehm’s ideas about “implicate order” could resolve how it can be a movie and not be a movie at the same time, so to speak.
They are located in British Columbia, Canada:
http://www.observationmountainacademy.com/
Kant is kool.
“Coming from someone who hasn’t a lot of actual knowledge or experience of what most are saying.” What you seem to be saying is I have been talking too much for a person who doesn’t really understand what many others are saying here.
This is true. However, my thoughts are coming more easily than ever before, or at any rate, than ever in many decades, and I am enjoying that.
What surprises me at times is that all of you who have gone through some or all of the scientology tunnel were, presumably, at some earlier time in your lives, where I am now, in respect of your curiosity about and lack of experience of scientology.
You are apparently like common adults who have forgotten what it is like to have been a child, and blow off children’s questions instead of trying to give answers the child can understand.
I simply post my thoughts as they arise. For me, that is a good thing at this time in my life, at my stage of development.
For y’all who have been there, done that, got the T-shirt, know all about it and have moved on – well, I’m not at that stage yet so I usually post specifics I am looking at. Sorry i’m boring you! You can just skip reading my posts I suppose. If you do read a post, and you spot something that’s not true or erroneous, by all means correct me, but be specifically in response to what I said, rather than telling me I’m “ignorant” or whatever. I alredy know I am ignorant about many things, that’s why I read and post here. Unlike those who are just trying to get their biases confirmed. 🙂
Mark, beautifully stated!
That is the kind of approach I meant when I said “the middle path in my post above, and lacked time to elaborate. You do it here better than I could possibly. Just one small addition:
This approach is not just “nice” or “noble” or”enlighted”.
It WORKS ! ! In the long run better than anythging I have so far encountered.
Thank you.
Hemi
Your post is so ignorantly vague it makes me think you many be ignorant about what you are trying to say. It seems pretty ignorant to think that my ignorance of the science of “Statistics” has anything to do with “scientology logic”. There are plenty of bright University students who do poorly in or flunk their first Statistic class.
You refer to my “ignorance” but fail to say anything about how what I posted, (to Al, by the way, not to you), about his interpretation of the “stats” he claimed for the Peoria Mission during his tenure there. If you don’t like th e”logic” i used you need look no further than Al himself, because I simply used his own “logic” to arrive at a different interpretation. I didn’t claim the “logic” he used was valid
For TED Talks fans, there’s this:
Now feeling impelled to take little side shots? Interesting in that scientology tends to train in one of the most reliable indicators of sociopathy – treating kindness and compassion as weakness. In either event thank you for continuing to demonstrate the observation from the original post: “You wind up with the curious phenomenon of apparently sincere people devoting their lives to vehemently defending their own entrapment.” Also thanks for demonstrating the Nietzchen and Crowley threads that run deep in Hubbard’s thought.
Really. Now that’s funny.. I see it as between Radical Scientologists and those that recognize the Con from thoroughly educating their selves.
I have NEVER hated the players..I have only hated the Game!
Please don’t get emotional. Be mindful.
Valkov, You can easily be flunked on bullbaiting. You have yet to cross that threshold of Scientology.
Sure, sure, I know the difference between comments and originations. But this is not a bullbait this is posting on a public blog. You seem to be ignorant of the difference. Apparently if you can’t have the kind of “dicussion” you want according to your rules, you decide to ‘bullbait’? That’s lame.
Yes! Keep telling yourself that – it’s a good Affirmation for you…..
Head posts? Definition.
That gives me a nice insight into what is happening with you. It is good that you are posting your thoughts as they arise. That is per mindfulness.
It is part of mindfulness not to resist but experience fully. So, now look at those things that the mind is still resisting and take a close look to see what is going on there.
Thanks Valkov, you are being a good sport. 🙂
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Marty, let me give an example of “Standard Scientology”. Saith the Registrar to the New Public Person just in off a Dianetics Book: “Excuse me sir, instead of getting auditing and training here at the org, why don’t you go and take a long walk off a short pier with a revolver and blow your brains out with the distorted LRH tech I just gave you?” Ask me Marty, how in the world does an already trained OT and Sea Org member get away with that on somebody? I am not sure yet. I am thinking it must be a 3rd Wall of Fire somewhere that LRH perhaps overlooked that brings about these kind of things? I was VERY upset and I didn’t even know it after that happened to me. I feel much more stable now as a being KNOWING without a doubt that there not only can be, but there are and there is such a thing as a corrupt “Scientologist”. The above example is my example. 🙂
It sounds like the way Tom Campbell described it. He used the analogy of a computer, in which all the parts of a document aren’t stored together in one particular location of the hard drive – bits and pieces of it are spread throughout. But when you “call up” the document you want to look at, you receive all the pieces. And it’s apparently the same way with memory storage and remembering.
Well, if there is someybody creating then you get into an infinite regression, when you ask, “Who is creating that which is creating?”
If things simply appear then there is no infinite regression, and it is much simpler an idea too.
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Elizabeth.. By saying that I might catch some of your realities I guess that’s Scientology talk for understanding what you say.
No thank you. I am very happy to stay in my world.
Vinaire, you said: “………… at one time all students on the course stood up and clapped for me along with LRH. That didn’t go very well for me.”
Why didn’t that go well for you? It seems that would have been a good thing to have happen to you.
Bawwwwwwwwwwwwhahhhahahaha… Let me think..You confronted me and I’m supposed to be shattered.
Is that the best ya got? Your superiority over those who do not believe in this Mind F*ck called Scientology never fails to amaze me.
PS Sweetie.. I’ll move on at my own speed. Thank you. I don’t need your words to demand me.. ” Ain’t nobody got time for that!” Sweet Brown
Absolutely Agree NLC.. Fraud! and one day..yes, one day the IRS will recognize this blatant flim flam game!
head post is not a comment but a titled write up., like marty’s, .. write to my email if interested
Chris, I’m a lot like that “almost everything worked” as Geir mentioned. Later years I found that if it isn’t fun and simple enough, it’s not for me, tho I’m always open to learn new things, My analyzing, hard work days have been pretty analyzed and worked over.
I take care of things best I can, enjoy people and am interesting in life and it’s many facets. In other words, I crossed that scientological bridge.
Cat.. I was waiting for you to show up. I knew you would! ha Yes! He is funny.
Things just appearing out of nowhere. Or is it out of nothing?
That’s simple allright.
I have agreed with you! It seems you know your self so well! what more do you want? from your writing what you are saying who you are really matches that self analysis.
That is how Mary Freeman said LRH meant it.
Thank you Val..That was nice of you to respond to me so nicely..( to deElizabethan and I not Al)
Even in fun words hurt.
You got me too.. you are truly fantastic knowing your self where you are at, a “LOW LIFE SP”and pointing out what I am. My hat off for your ability to see so clearly. Yes that me” ” superior” thank you and good night!
I been thinking about your above post. We are on this planet to learn. Sooner or later even you have to learn that there is no right or wrong those are considerations-belief-agreements and every of them are illusions. So are ARCB’s and serv facs. Figment of your imaginations. Why not correct your self and look after your wrong assumptions. you are not in the position to give me lessons or corrections. thank you.
Sunny says..”Thank you for sharing your journey with us. We were always rooting for you, even if we got on your nerves some times.”
and I agree.. but want to add.. even if you got on our nerves too.. tee hee
Sorry Vinnie.. Knock Knock you have company.. quit crowding the sofa!
I don’t remember posting on a blog with so many view points. This is history in the making. and we are all still alive!
this planet is not a kindergarten but a prison planet, a hell hole and every person here is because what they believe in , what they have done to others and with that to self. we only can get out when we confront our own mistake. so dont kid your-self sympathy never have freed any one.
Val, first I didn’t say you were ignorant and the ‘whatever’ was “someone who hasn’t a lot of actual knowledge or experience” is a much different thing. Why would you say you are ignorant about many things? The only one who is ignorant is the one who thinks he knows it all!
However it’s when you seemingly deny those who have experience and knowledge first hand, by studying or working in the organization, when you have not, do I get turned off. Leaning and reading is all good and that’s a plus. But to understand actually and know what ex-scientologist’s here have gone through in the actual organizations, at what ever level, is different. Disbelieving them, arguing and making them wrong only makes me wonder where all that comes from.
You are not bothering me. I got used to ignoring your posts before, but you do seem to be lightening up a bit and letting others have their say. Cute note when you tell yourself to “shut up Valkov”, you should listen (smile)!
You appear an honest person and willing to learn, and do have a sense of humor.
Since so many have ‘been there and done that’, why not give them the benefit of doubt and learn from their mistakes, otherwise you will need to go to the actual organization to get that t-shirt.
Hope I addressed your note, as it was a lot Please respect yourself and others, thank you.
Good on you for improving and interested enough to listen and give your thoughts that hopefully help others. Peace, love!
“…my thoughts are coming more easily than ever before, or at any rate, than ever in many decades, and I am enjoying that.”
I noticed that, Val, and mentioned it not too long ago, if you recall. And I asked if it had anything to do with auditing or whatever else. I don’t remember if you replied, but I’ll say agina it does seem like you’ve had some sort of “transcendence” or “awakening” or whatever the word would be. Somethin’. 🙂
Hi Val,
I read your posts with admiration: wise, witty, sharply observing and…entertaining too. I have many things to tell/discuss.
But right now, reading you, and your repeated statements about your lack of enough experience on the important auditing part of the subject – I ‘ve been thinking, why don’t you get some, and fill the gap? Many Indie top class auditors, nice, inexpensive, no IAS, no “agendas” not even policy.
Just auditing according to YOUR NEEDS and benefit.
It might work for you or not. My humble opinion: You will have the treat of your life..but whatever, you will be much the wiser on top of the impressive wisdom you already display.
Just thinking…
Hemi
Maybe he was speaking to the future heads of the church, and meant “the labor of sea org members” is free. ‘Cause it sure doesn’t pay much.
Standard Tech is basically reading the e-meter correctly and then reading questions from a list LRH prefered as the right questions .. one part of it is, checking the ruds ..
So you were always asked for PTP, Withhold and ARCX .. what is this really? For me it was always stupid .. I would know for myself if I had one of this ruds out .. completely unnecessary to ask via an e-meter about .. but there is something, namely that you got a restimulation of an out rud .. but this is not part of the rudiments ..
You may come with fresh spirit into session .. got a read on PTP .. and the PTP may be simply the last session the day before, you wanted it today in a better way ..then run this stuff seven billion years back .. the session runs now bad, but now you have the same PTP twice ..
The normal way of communication would be .. simply to say that I would heve this day a better session than yesterday .. not asking the e-meter if something is there in regard to PTP ..
Scientology readings make a lot of words. I would not be able to study all in one lifetime. The really interesting stuff he never told or I never found it in the materials. I am not so much interested if there is something like standard tech. I am now since years much interested in what he left out.
He left out more than what he talked about. I mean within the field of Scientology. Not other fields. The only chance then is to find out myself. With that interpretation and observation I had to do, there was no Standard Tech at all.
Very recently I came to the conclusion that Scientology had been designed form the beginning to destroy itself. Whatever the purpose behind that had been I do not know.
“Nothing I read in Scientology ever said to act like an asshole. Now, it is true that Ron admired people who got shit done . . . I am sad that others did not have the same experience, because, really, people are awesome, and I hate that people have to go through hell.”
This is the type of cognitive dissonance that formerly well-meaning and thoroughly trained ex-SO wrestle with. It is painful as you can read from the entire post. That noticeable NAZI-like visage that exes cannot fathom from where it came? Well, that is the true evil and mind-fuck of Hubbard. You can read it all wrapped up, partitioned off, encapsulated in this one post. The good and decent person, Grasshopper, wrestles with the nonsense of KSW and loses.
Agreed. And my own attitude toward Marty has evolved as well.
“My experience as an auditor is the exact opposite of Hubbard’s statement. Everyone has a different case. Everyone has a different purpose. Everyone has their own unique path.”
Very sensible. This is one of the many pivotal points of the failure of Scientology.
I have been thinking about the problem I have been having with Valkov and Marildi in Discussions. I have, therefore, modified the first point of the Discussion Policy as follows.
However, there are distractions that can keep one from discussing a subject. Such distractions may be introduced in the following ways:
1. Defending a viewpoint instead of looking at the irrationality generated by it.
A person who is vehemently defending a datum instead of discussing it rationally has his attention fixed internally on some unresolved personal confusion. The datum he is defening is restraining that confusion. The person is afraid of discussing that datum because if that datum is shaken he would be overwhelmed by his internal confusion again.
Some people literally view God as a person who has created this universe. They completely ignore the inconsistency that a person has a form that occupies space, and that form and space are also things that are created as part of the universe. So, God cannot be a person and the creator of the universe. But such people, who believe that god is literally a person, would not like to discuss this inconsistency. They would simply insist that their viewpoint is right. They would reject others who think differently.
The solution would then be to somehow identify and resolve that person’s internal confusion with skillful discussion. When there is no confusion, no stable datum needs to be defended vehemently. One can look at any datum calmly.
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My viewpoint is as follows.
Awareness is known to arise, change and disappear. It may be likened to a disturbance that arises, changes and disappears. We may assume some ground state, which when disturbed gives rise to awareness.
The ground state is the undisturbed state. It is an absence of awareness. It shall forever remain unknown because there is no awareness to accompany it.
The ground state is similar to that sound sleep in which no time seems to have passed. That time is just gone and cannot be found in memory either.
Awareness is a disturbance of some ground state, which is unknowable.
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Al, that is a good question.
It did not go well because I was reported as “teaching” squirrel mindfulness. I was using LRH references in such a way that it was looked as favoring a certain interpretation. It was considered “Verbal tech,” and I was squirreling.
Apparently, there was one student who didn’t clap. His/her report was acted upon.
If you have seen my blog, you will see that it is anchored on the concept of Mindfulness. I come from India and mindfulness is in my DNA code. I saw TR0 to be a practice of mindfulness. Unfortunately, it was not appreciated.
Look up the definition of ATTENTION in Tech Dictionary. That was one of the references I was using and getting the person to make examples of how attention could be aberrated while doing TR0..
A person with attention on the clock has his/her attention fixed on time while doing TR0. This would be aberrated attention and the person is not really doing TR0.
LDW:
Standard…. “a definite level or degree of quality that is proper and adequate for a specific purpose.”…
This is a very important line of thinking you are on here. I have always thought of this as an ‘everybody knows’ sort of thing. Then I saw how Scn. had become so over structured, even while I myself was preaching “A methodical and structured method of self improvement”.
The structure could be a custom built bridge for each PC, which is then rebuilt after every session, by experienced individuals who fully understand the 42,844 most common things that can go wrong with a being.
The standard could be that each process is done with skill, insight, and love, exactly when the person is ready and needs it.
A lofty goal, surly, but why not. That is what LRH promised. Why not up the ante.
Mark
MARK: “Well, Vin, I wasn’t talking about the SO. I am taking about Scientology and what the ideal ought to be.”
Mark, you need to confront what is there and not live in some la la land. We all have our ideal scenes. LRH had his ideal scene of Clear and Standard Tech too. But you can’t say something is there just because you think it should be there. This is the subject of the very first exercise on Mindfulness. Please do this exercise if you can.
Mindfulness 1: Observe without Desires
Mindfulness provides the discipline for looking and contemplation.
You may do this exercise while sipping coffee in a café, or strolling along a river. You may even find a place where you can sit comfortably for a while without being disturbed. Then patiently observe the world go by.
Mindfulness is “seeing things as they are.” Expectations can act as filter and prevent one from recognizing what is actually there. For example, you may see a person in priestly robes and trust him implicity because you expect him to be a man of God. But he may be a crook who can take you for a ride. Thus, expectations may add extraneous thoughts and conclusions that do not reflect what is actually there.
Uncontrolled thinking comes about when one is trying to predict what may happen tomorrow without first recognizing fully what is there. One wants answers; but answers do not come from ungrounded speculations. Only when you know what is there can you hypothesize in a reasonable and consistent manner. As one continues to observe without filters of expectations and desires, answers present themselves.
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MINDFULNESS #1: Observe without getting influenced by your expectations and desire for answers.
1. Observe as usual. Notice the environment and other people.
2. As you observe, see if there are any expectations or desire to predict something that may be influencing your observation. Spot them one by one.
Example: You may see a person in priestly robes and trust him implicity because you expect him to be a man of God. But he may be a crook who can take you for a ride. Reference: “If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him”
3. Don’t suppress those expectations and desires. Simply become aware of them, and then move on.
4. As you observe, see if there are any extraneous thoughts arising in your mind. Spot any expectations and desires underlying them that are influencing the observation.
5. Don’t suppress them. Simply become aware of them, and move on.
6. As you observe, see if there is any uncontrolled thinking going on in your mind. Notice the possible scenarios that the mind is trying to predict.
7. Don’t suppress them. Simply become aware of them, and move on.
8. As you observe, see if there is any unanswered questions. Notice any speculations that the mind might be entertaining.
9. Don’t suppress them. Simply become aware of them, and move on.
10. Expand your span of attention and let the perceptions pour in.
11. Let the realizations present themselves to you without you making any effort.
.
Develop this exercise to a point where you are doing it naturally even while interacting socially with others. Keep observing patiently without expecting anything, or attempting to get an answer. Many things may come up naturally to be scrutinized. Simply observe them and become aware of them without effort.
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For the past 35 years I have been investigating what Scientology is and why something that offers such promise for the betterment of mankind patently does not produce the expected results.
The fact is that Scientology is exclusively concerned with “mans’ truth” as opposed to “God’s truth”. The truth is that each one of us was created by God. God is an entity that has the attribute of PERSONHOOD that expresses as LOVE. Each one of us is made in God’s image and likeness, and have the same attributes as God. We were created to be in a loving relationship with God, and with each other but for this to be possible we were each given free will.
Until we have an earnest desire to experience the “love of God” we can never leave the path of “natural love”. This is the path that the majority of persons are on, including all the religions. There are only two paths. The natural path of love and the Divine Path. The third requirement for the divine path is HUMILITY and because the natural path teaches self-reliance the further we go on the natural path the more difficult it is to change to the divine path.
Scientologists are in a good position to make this change. If they have wholeheartedly embraced the tech. and have come to realise that “something is missing” this is the missing dimension. Scientology is a journey towards the infinite from the finite, from the 1st dynamic towards the 8th. However the journey has no end and this is the path of natural love and the pursuit of mans’ truth, the path of self-reliance – “man can pull himself up by his own bootstraps”.
God’s way is to start from the 8th dynamic to seek divine love and truth, but that requires HUMILITY. It has been said “better is the enemy of best”. Scientology leads to a “better life” and that is “the hook” which is true for every endeavour on “the natural path”.
The best is God’s way and that has always been “The Way”.
If what I have written here resonates with you please do get in touch pip_threlfall@yahoo.co.uk
Love and ARC
Pip
There is nothing wrong with Standard Tech. in fact it is excellent for handling the FINITE, it is when we endeavour to use it to explore the INFINITE that we run into trouble.
The stated goal in Scientology is for a person to attain “TOTAL FREEDOM” that is an infinite goal, and as such can never be achieved with Standard Tech.
The common denominator of all traps is FEAR and although LOVE (ARC) can and does ameliorate fear it can never “cast it out”, only DIVINE LOVE can do that, and divine love is quite different to AFFINITY. In fact it is necessary to let go of affinity to experience divine love.
Scientology works well if all you want to do is to improve your life, that is to be a bit freer, but if one’s goal is TOTAL FREEDOM the only way is to “change horses” from the “natural love path” to the “divine love path”.
Again if you are interested, do get in touch.
Love ad ARC
Pip
I like how you have boiled Standard Tech down to simplicity.
Hubbard problem was that he started from the assumption that he, as an auditor, knew more than the preclear. That was the basis of Dianetic auditing and that didn’t go too far.
I have heard so many people say that the problem, which brought them into Scientology never got fully handled.. Scientology dances around instead of directly addressing the person’s problem. That is where Idenics differs. It goes straight into addressing a person’s unwanted condition.
I have based the following exercise on running the basic Idenics procedure with Mindfulness.
Handling Unwanted Condition
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I am a never-in, with a sister-in-law who has been INJECTING KOOL-HUBBARD-AIDE for 40 years plus, daughter in SO. She is disfigured by cancer, marriage destroyed, broke, no credit, no house,crazy, lives horribly. Through these blogs, who by the way are comprised by some of the most interesting people I have ever read about, I discovered she is not unique. She is one of the normies of the cult of scion-conn-me. With the true history of the depravity of LRH, and the obvious goals of the dear leader ( funny, probably not even a clam, probably laughs his ass every night that he is getting richer by the sheer stupidity, gullibility of followers, on the most part well intentioned people). He probably believes as much of the LRH crap as my chihuahua does, and he definetely has an exit strategy sooner than anyone thinks. Reading homage to LRH, THE ULTIMATE LIAR AND PLAGERIST is hysterical. One only needs to look at the acts of the leaders of a group, or religion, to determine the the nature of beliefs. Truth gradients?? Lies!! Greater good for the benefit of clams??? Liars!! The leader needs a mouthpiece so as the words are not traceable? Criminal! Spiritual welfare measured in dollars and cents by a leader who is not accountable to his own words and his income? Non profit organization under religion that is anything but transparent? Ethical people=Disconnection=RPF=Forced Divorce=SubHuman Treatment, Slavery, Horrific Living Conditions, Horrible Wages=No Health Care= Pension=Truth Gradients,Acceptable Lying=Child Abuse, and so much more that Marty and all of you know=LRH, SCIENTOLOGY. This is what EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD SEES BUT THE KOOL-AIDE ADDICTS!
Hemi, KHTK Auditing is free. You can do it yourself by going here (see link below). If one needs some help one can always contact me. It is all free.
KHTK Mindfulness
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V…. one of your best! 🙂
Yup, I hear you. I’m kind of graduated from self help… Taking a break! 🙂
V… LRH give the solution to that problem and it works too but it has to be used. Knowing the words only do not addresses the problems.
Please read this…
By now I know whatever takes place in my life that has meant to happen regardless was wanted or not: it is there now because that incident is next in line to be confronted. [There is order in the Universe: the reels of movies roles relentlessly.]
Therefore each day I am presented with lessons [segment of the movie] and these lessons are more like riddles of the most intricate nature and when I take them apart the reward is presented in a form of cognitions..
No matter what happens how it looks like and the evidence point toward somebody, something or toward ‘’self’’ here: that one of us were the originator of the drama…which is experienced in form of disagreements, happiness, pleasure, bloom on the flower or viewing volcano eruption, fire some place, or just a simple accident: tripping over one’s own feet, all that is on illusion.[ the ‘’eye’’ perceives as the movie roles.]
Everything no matter what ever we experience here is the replica, a poor imitation, a holograph to some degree of a totally different incident which has happened some place and that ‘’some place’’ is definitely not on this Planet and not ‘’now’’ [ I know the finger when cut bleeds, so that is ‘’real’’ but the cause of that cut the original postulate did not happen when the knife sliced the finger] and the bleeding finger is not a holograph that too is the fact.. IT IS WHAT THE “”EYE”” HAVE SEEN, so please close those ‘’EYES’’ and what DO YOU SEE?
Not likely the cut finger.[ eyes are part of the machinery] But what you will feel and that sensation-pain is the original incident and the picture of the knife- the finger- the blood, the colors and other surrounding images are JUST ADDED TO THAT SENSATION , the sensation itself could have happened long before who know when and where on what planet in the Universe.
The illusion part is not easy to explain, yet the existence of the illusion is easy to verify by simply taking any concept into sessions and when inspected: by close going-over –assessment that concept will vanish forever soon as the original reason is realized why it was created in the first place but of course this phenomenon need to be experienced in order to believe that it is like that.
If something can be erased as-isad than it is not real.. So all beliefs ‘in my experience’ can be erased and that happens when that energy –mass=the sensation-feeling-pain is confronted.
Why I write about this since all of you know this already, but this is just a reminder that the movie is on implant and that implant include every belief one has regardless if these beliefs are negative or positive.
Of course judgments, judging others is part of the implanted material and that is the most difficult to give up, very difficult.. IF one could do that, when that would happens: that Entity =person would be totally outside of the MEST.. But soon as that Entity would make a comment, statement, remark on any subject in that instant that person is taking a standpoint and with that the Entity is back in the good old MEST U.
So, in my reality one can perceive –observe but if at the same moment enhances that observation with assumption-opinion- guessing what that is.. than I call that judging.
Now, not to do that while one still is connected to a body: totally impassible, and even saints could not do that, because being a Saint is already a valance and that valance was born out of judgement: what is good, better than other valances.
Can OT’s do that??? We all know the answers but to achieve such State is impassible while still anchored by the body into the MEST U. The body is a ordinary energy generator which constantly supplies stimulation and that stimulation is a connecting agent keeps one in the MEST.
THE CHOICES WE MAKE IS THE OUT COME OF OUR JUDGEMENT AND THE “”RIGHT CHOICE” ENSURES SURVIVAL.
We have been thought those lesson and we have thought the same to others… but survival never was for the Entity but for the MEST and its continuations.. so who’s been fooling whom? 🙂
OK, I get what you are saying there. You are talking about ‘awareness’ arising out of, apparntly ‘nothing’. That is different from “things’ arising out of nothing.
It is the kind of question Kant pondered, having to do with the possible existence of ‘things-in-themselves’, and whethr or not we could ever directly perceive them at all, or whether or not things in themselves actually existed. From my readin gof him he never actually came to an exact conclusion about ‘things-in-themselves’ and out knowledge of and relationship to them. But, I read Kant when I was much younger and could easily have missed something.
Thanks dE. I did not think or mean to imply you called me ignorant. It was Vin who recently has called me ignorant a couple of times, over my post to Al about the meaning of the statistics he claims to have observed when he worked at the Peoria mission for quite a few years. Vin and Al were cackiling about how dumb and ignorant I was about statistics and how Al would have to “forgive” me for it etc. And did you or anyone else speak up about their belittling of me? If you did, I missed that……
And even so, I did not question the statistics he quoted, I said I believed him. What I disagreed with is his interpretation of the numbers he was quoting. The interpretation, not questioning any of his experience. Fact is, he doesn’t often mention any of the specifics of his experience.
I was never on staff, but I spent plenty of time in the local org after they ‘stat pushed’ the local Mission up to org status (status push rather than statistics push? 🙂 ), doing drills on courses and getting reged for this and that. I also experienced IAS reging and donating, visited Flag, got my money on account back just a couple of years ago, so I have had dealings with corporate scn enough to last me a lifetime thank you. There are still, I believe, a few very nice and dedicated people “in” at the Battle Creek org that I sometimes feel like praying for, that they may wake up and blow. At one time I thought there were enough there for theorg to go independent but it hasnt happened.
But in any case, thanks for taking the time to respond in some detail.
It’s not been anything that dramatic. It has been a slow evolution and Marty’s blog has helped. By which I mean Marty himself, but the commenters also have helped, including Al and even Vin, who never shuts up it seems. So recently I devided to see what would happen if I tried to rspond to every post addressed to me. For me it’s close to impossible. But has been interesting.
Yes they can, and often do.
I think each person, who is resisting the Discussion Policy, may have internal confusion unique to himself. It could be so suppressed that the person may not even be aware of lt. All you can see is that this person is vehemently defending a datum while refusing to discuss it rationally.
So, the first step to help the person would be to help him see things as there. It is only when the person can see things as they are that he would be able to recognize his suppressed confusion.
My recommended exercise for any person would be the following.
Mindfulness 1: Observe without Desires
After doing this exercisea person may find it easier to follow the Discussion Policy, and hopefully discover his suppressed internal confusion by rationally discussing the datum he has been defending so vehemently.
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Thanks Hemi. Many years ago I had a Life Repair froma field auditor. Then I spent many many hours over a long period of time doing TRs, mostly OT-TR0 and TR0. Along the way I was put through some CCHs by an HQS course student. Later I had quite a few hours of OpProByDup run on me, for which I paid. And I did the Purif when it first came out. I continued to do TRs until I was satisfied that I had got a “major stable win” which as I recall came as I was doing OT-TR0. The org people around here didn’t know what to make of me because they thought of scientology progress in a cookie-cutter way which they couldn’t deliver. I now see them as living in a catch 22 with unrealistic expectations. I now realize this was the result of demands fom above – actually suppressive, because unrealistic, demands from above. That was nearly 30 years ago, but it was already happening.
I’m getting old. I’ve had some medical problems in recent years but these blogs have helped a lot in putting together. I have looked into getting some auditing a liitle but haven’t found my way clear to it yet. I currently talk to a psychologist once a week who is an acolyte of Ram Dass and at one time, before she got her psychology credentials, was Ram Dass’ personal assistant for a while. This isn’t any kind of heavy-duty therapy, she is a pleasant person to chat with and that’s what we do. It helps me sort things out nonetheless.
Thanks a lot for your kind wishes! I’m glad you’re “keeping the faith”.
dE, back in Geir Forum days, Geir was always hell on ‘ad hom’ so I had a shtick in which when I ad hoomed another poster, usually Al, I would blame it on my alter-ego “Bad Valkov” and scold “Bad Valkov” in my posts. This allowed me to get away with some.
V… reading your reality for over 3 years I am fairly sure I understand it. But if we all would have the same beliefs, same understanding, same knowledge, if we could duplicate each other communication.. Than we would all look alike, talk the same and go by the same laws we all agree to have.. Be more robotic? Where would be the individuality? Beside we cant think for others and we dont have the POWER TO CHANGE OTHERS WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN. AND THAT ALONE SAVES US FROM TIRANY. Slavery… We can only work and change our believes… 🙂
Apologies for the comment, Marty – I did go over the top there.
Thanks, Pip. I agree with you in the main. You can see the lack of God in Scientology, and it is a huge gap.
I am now putting my Bill Clinton hat on and saying, it depends on what you consider Scientology is. I have to accept the fact that the world at large accepts “Scientology” to be the entirely of everything that had any connection to Scientology the organization as well as Scientology the tech. This would include Charlie Manson, since apparently he picked up a book or something. In that vein, I can say that Scientology is screwed up – and in the terms of mindfulness, you can see what is happening exactly, and see that pretty much the entirety of the universe of everything labeled “Scientology” is screwed up.
I do stand by my comment that Scientology, or any help of any kind, for that matter, must be performed with love, kindness, and compassion in order to truly help. The best practitioners of Scientology auditing, C/Sing, and supervising that I knew had these characteristics in spades.
Are you saying that people who get shit done are necessarily assholes or Nazilike? Or that people who get shit done put other people in hell? I am trying to grasp the cognitive dissonance here.
Look – either Ron set all this up to fail on purpose, or he didn’t. If he set up all of Scientology to enslave people, and the SO to be his Gestapo, then you are 100% right.
All that is good and workable in Scientology, I shall be preserving it in KHTK.
I studied Kant from two sources – Durant and Ouspensky. Here is a record of some of my comments. A lot of those comments are in the Comments section.
A Look at Kant’s Philosophy
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Here are some of the comments from the previous link.
Mindfulness looks at mind as a sense organ that perceives mental objects. All knowledge is derived from physical and mental sense-experience.
When mindfulness is allowed as above, then there is no necessity for the conjecture that “we have knowledge that is independent of sense-experience.”
Kant is actually postulating knowledge outside of PHYSICAL sense-experience because he is not looking at mind as a sense organ.
Is there absolute knowledge? I believe Kant never answered that question.
From the viewpoint of mindfulness, all knowledge is relative. No matter how much you may know, there would still be more to know.
As far as the function of pure reason is concerned, apparently it is to recognize the consistency or inconsistency among knowledge.
I believe that it is not necessary to examine these details of the structure of the mind as worked out by Kant. We shall look at this area only if the resolution of some inconsistency demands it.
(1) What is there is there. We perceive it directly. Nothing needs to be proved about it.
(2) What needs to be proved are the expectations, speculations and assumptions that we use to interpret what is there.
(3) The correctness of what we perceive to be there is determined by the consistency of what we perceive.
(4) Presence of inconsistency may indicate missing perception or the presence of filter (expectations, speculations and assumptions).
(5) General truths will be visible if the filter is removed.
Maybe what Kant is calling “experience” is actually a reference to the “filter” that one is looking through. When there is no filter, there is no need to not accept the perception for what it is.
(1) Mathematics basically makes certain postulates and then explores where they lead to.
(2) Mathematics may be looked upon as exploration of the basic structure of thought.
(3) “Two plus two equals four” is actually a tautology. Here we are looking at the same mental object in two different ways. Maybe the thought is ultimately tautological. This needs to be investigated.
(4) “A priori” knowledge is tautological. It is absolute only in a tautological sense.
We may thus say that all fundamental premise, which are looked upon as absolute, must be tautological in nature.
(1) We get this character of absoluteness and necessity from a fundamental tautology. Maybe we’ll discover through our investigation how a fundamental tautology comes to be manifested.
(2) Per this fundamental tautology, what is, IS.
(3) Experience comes from the logical associations that flow from the fundamental tautologies.
(4) When consistency is maintained throughout these logical associations, we have an absolute and necessary subject such as mathematics.
(5) When consistency is NOT maintained and inconsistencies abound in these logical associations, then we have something like “experience” that is full of variability and unpredictability.
(6) The basic structure of the mind that can spot inconsistencies is absolute and necessary like mathematics.
(7) The mind may be looked upon as shrouded by filters that are full of variability and unpredictability.
(8) The filters act as “inconsistency generators” when “experience” is extracted from “what is.”
(9) The mind “transforms the chaotic multiplicity of experience into the ordered unity of thought” only when it ia allowed to spot the inconsistencies and follows them through to spot filters.
(10) Mindfulness allows the mind to spot inconsistencies and to follow them through.
To Cob$..
I am sorry that you have to watch the mess that your family has gone through with this evil cult. I have watched friends and family members also put Scientology before ANYTHING in their lives.. ANYTHING.
You are speaking to the choir for a lot of us.. Trust me!
Agreed.
Thank you Val for filling in more of your background which helps to understand where you are coming from. I do care.
Regarding speaking up for you/others. I feel it’s important and necessary for the individual himself to stand up, let go or otherwise handle those who attack him or are just nasty. When I read so much of it on a thread, then I let it go or speak up, to my fancy. You are doing fine, love!
(that’s the British term ‘love’ I use, adopted from a lovely relationship) But then you know that!
“Well, that is the true evil and mind-fuck of Hubbard. You can read it all wrapped up, partitioned off, encapsulated in this one post. The good and decent person, Grasshopper, wrestles with the nonsense of KSW…. ”
Well stated and clear Chris.
Vin, just a curious question? Why do you keep repeating yourself and your tech in comments?
Val:”…‘awareness’ arising out of, apparently ‘nothing’. That is different from “things’ arising out of nothing.”
I’ve been discussing with Vinnie for a few years now about awareness arising from nothing and he is doing a decent job of codifying the mechanism, except for one point: I believe the cycle is more apt to start with space than awareness.
In short, bubbles of space erupting in a void is likely more probable than the singular emergence of an awake and aware “awareness”. However, it is probable that some of these space bubbles had the potential for awareness: potentially wake-able.
Since there is nothing but space bubbles in this scenario, the triggering action for the emergence of awareness would likely be the collision of a potentially-aware-space-bubble with another space bubble. Up to the point of the collision the space bubbles could well have been vibrationless: they would pass for a static.
The transition from potential awareness to awareness would have been due to vibrations caused by the collision of the bubble boundaries. For want of a better description I have called this “the awakening event.”
I have speculated that the starting point was an expansion of space from zero, not awareness expanding space. I suggest that sequence as a result of personal experience: experiencing a personal expansion of space (while on TRs), a volumetric expansion. Others have reported similar phenomena. This expansion phenomena was one of the prime factors that led me to a certainty that there is a definite distinction between body and “spirit” (whatever you want to call it).
The thing about that expansion was that I was aware of the larger masses within the volume, and of the peripheral extent: the walls. The expansion may be best termed “an awareness volume” but the word “space” seems equally appropriate.
Assuming we can say that awareness expanding over a volume is a spiritual phenomenon as opposed to a biochemical phenomenon, then I’ll proffer that the spirit apart from the body has the same, or better, capability of creating or occupying an awareness volume or space.
It is also very likely that the spirit can make a copy of the awareness volume. This may well be an automaticity for the spirit and the basis of continuous memory records: the continual creation of space copies of the awareness volume.
If the being is able to make a copy – a duplicate – of an awareness volume as a memory unit on an automatic basis, then the being should equally be able to create any kind of space volume on a causative basis. If the being can do that and can make the volume vibrate, the being has learned how to make energy.
Once you have energy as a little packet of vibrating space and you figure out how to stick a bunch of these vibrating spaces together you would likely end up with something that looked like a particle of matter. In reality it would be condensed energy that was really just vibrating space that came from an awareness’ decision to create some vibrating space.
And so you would have, in a sense, “things arising from nothing”.
Once awareness refined that ability to make vibrating spaces that would condense to matter, it would then be only a matter of learning proportions of this energy and that energy (this vibration rate and that vibration rate) that created the stickiest particles. It would have been as natural a progression of learning and correcting as any engineering process we’ve ever seen on Earth.
For that reason I now prefer to look on the creators of this universe more as cooks, engineers, or barn raisers than as gods.
Thanks Vinaire, I just realized that I was reading your statement to mean that LRH clapped for you. Thanks for explaining.
Actually I was misinterpreting your statement by thinking LRH clapped for you.
I don’t know what he is saying. But, I do know that you are misrepresenting the scientology writings of L Ron Hubbard that call for, inter alia:
‘People attack Scientology; I never forget it, always even the score.’
– Manual of Justice, 1959
‘Don’t ever defend. Always attack.’
– Department of Government Affairs, 1960
‘If possible, of course, ruin him utterly.’
– Manual on Dissemination of Material, 1955
‘When identified or even suspected as the instigator, draw up a project which includes at least three channels to cost him his job. Draw up a second project at once to survey and discover what the person really is defending and threaten it effectively.’
– Counter Attack Tactics, 1972
Tomes of Scientology scripture by Hubbard require Scientologists to ‘overwhelm’, ‘paralyze’, ‘immobilize’, and ‘obliterate’ those who dissent.
Hubbard directed that one who attempts to differentiate workable therapy aspects of Scientology from its warlike policies be treated in such wise that he would have “thought he had been hit by a Mack truck, and I don’t mean thought-wise.” History is littered with the ruined lives of individuals who have attempted to glean the wheat that may be effective in Scientology from such aggressive chaff. The failures of those who have assayed such differentiation have been guaranteed by Scientology’s unalterable policies.
Sorry for the confusion. Students usually clap for LRH at the end of the course day. That one time they clapped for me too. It was very strange.
I have no idea.
Maybe I want to help.
Val.. I have read so many of your posts during my lurking days. I like you. Not in a Scientology way where everybody writes much love and puts smiley faces on as you remove the dagger from your back.
Underneath your veneer lies a gentle sensitive soul. I have seen the way that you have responded to many. It’s funny, but from you I sense you responding to Wogs much better than your fellow Scientologists.
Especially since Marty has been ” Awakened..” and his writing is addressing his journey through the mire.
I would give anything if you would just read all things the Ex’s have written. Or those researched ( Lawrence Wright) You know the books by now.
Memorize them if you have to. Forget Hubbard..Forget Dianetics and Scientology.
Others deeply steeped in the cult thinking will take a lot longer to see the light, but you Val.. When I read your posts I read between the lines.
You are not in the physical constraints of the ” Chirch, ” but you are mentally trapped. Not trapped by chains as maybe trapped like duct tape.
You can Cut duct tape! Please process this information. Think about it. There is NO reactive mind. You create the reactive mind through mock ups and spend years getting rid of it!
Just Promise me you’ll think about it! baby
Lack of God? Yep.. Only an implant blah, blah space Opera. There is NO God only self.
Here are the 5 social codes in Hinduism, designed to harmonize one’s social interactions. I am putting it here just for the contrast:
1. satya (truthfulness),
2. ahimsa (non-violence),
3. asteya (honesty),
4. brahmacharya (sexual control),
5. aparigraha (non-possessiveness)
I never liked the hypothesis of GAMES of Hubbard.
Maybe I want to discuss these principles. Would you like to?
Maybe I want to bore people to death.
Wow! You got me listing, deElizabethan. Is that what you intended?
Ha hahaha haha lololol You hav esucceeded beyond your wildest dreams! I can’t count ho wmany times I, like the Phoenix, havce resurrected myself fom the ashes after having to wade through all your comments on an otherwise interesting thread!
he he he he.
Stop it! Stop!
Bad Valkov! Bad!
Sorry about that Vin, he broke loose again….
Maybe there are more evil purposes lurking somewhere in my subconsciousness.
I can list endlessly on D’s question.
I have curious question too, De. That will help me stop listing. What made you ask me that question?
Besides OT VII or OT VIII is designed to bring the realization that there is no reactive mind. I am not sure about this as it it came to me second or third hand.
I think from my childhood I had wanted to discuss deep concepts. Maybe I keep putting them there because nobody else wants to discuss them.
Oh Yeah, Geir told me that I do that to bring people to my blog.
Geir accused me of using his blog to promote my blog. Maybe I am doing that here too.
:0 he has a sense of humor that is for sure and he wonders why I DONT FALLOW THE DEBATING RULES! if I would than by now I would be bored to death. 🙂
Darn, I am bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
De, are you policing thoughts on this forum?
Re: Question. LMAO! That was really funny Vin. I am quite removed from the lingo and processes in my own head and I really was looking for, my intention, just an answer. Well, should you want to list, have at it.
I like the ‘maybe’ answer as it does relate to my own boredom, seeing things repeated so much. You are a kind soul and mean well, but to keep pushing your menu here is a bit much, for me anyway. Sorry love!
I do however, really like when you speak from your own opinions, experiences and thoughts.
All other views on this thread have been very helpful and interesting as well.
No apologies necessary Val. Good boy, good! Laughing with ya!
Point made – point made. I will state categorically that these are asshole policies. The church’s/Ron’s policies surrounding so-called justice, etc., are abhorrent. And of course, so are the actions resulting therefrom.
Why didn’t you say so in the first place? A Scientologist will say that you were being 1.1.
… Or maybe not.
I am sorry, De, that I am not entertaining enough for you. I apologize.
Let’s assume just for a moment that there are/were such things as implants. Just because an implant has God as a subject does not mean that there is no God, or that God is merely a delusion. It just means that there is an implant with God as a subject.
In any event – Scn by default does exalt the divine self. And, unfortunately, Scn promotes the “some are gods, some are minions” point of view. Of course, everyone involved in Scn considers they are on the “Big Being” group. This concept goes back pre-Scientology and pre-Thetan, with the PV=IDx equation out of Book One – Potential Value (of a person) is equal to Intelligence times Dynamic to an unspecified power. Dynamic is the “bigness” of the being, and some people had more than others. Intelligence could be improved, according to Ron, but Dynamic was constant. Hence, you have bug dynamic guys vs. wusses. Big Beings vs minions.
Vin,
If you wish to tempt me to check anything, tell me it is good, enlighting, wise, powerful…not free. I have very small button on money. Many dear things are fabulous and cheap ones crapy. Not always, ok.
Since started Indie high quality auditing, my curiousity and openness have rocketed sky high. My affinity and acceptance of other spiritual ways have increased ten-fold. Hell, how can it be otherwise? If I really progress and feel good with my spiritual way, why should I wish to compete or put down other spiritual ways or people? I don’t need to, they are my brothers and colegues, trying like me to rise and grow. Only when I am frustrated, feel bad, or lose my integrity – I then I start shooting and invalidating everything else. Simple.
It does not mean I will try anything and everything, of course. Impossible.
I will check up what you suggest, when I get the time.
Thanks, Hemi
Hemi, I grew up in the land of Buddhism. There were no corporate religions there. Knowledge was free. It was considered bad to make business out of spiritual help. Disciples took care of the survival needs of their guru.
I like that model better than the model of Scientology.
And I will add to this: Ron did not believe in a Supreme Being. Nor did he believe in a pool of “Theta”. I believe (and cannot prove) that the concept of “The Theta Universe” did not actually come from Ron. Ron did talk about Theta being, basically, Life Force, and again with the quantities – some forms had more theta than others. But the idea that there is a Theta Universe – like “The Force” in Star Wars – is not a Ron idea, I don’t think. Ron was an atheist when it came to the “Big Thetan.” His view of God has always been that of this big guy with big powers – the anthropomorphic God. The Big Guy who created all, but who is independent of us. His view of creation is not that one God created it, but that we created it by agreement with each other. I bunch of guys hanging out, all of a sudden mocking up footballs to play with that we all agreed are there to play with. But no Theta Universe, or capital “G” God.
This is important (to me, at least) because an Eastern view of God (Hindu? Buddhist? not sure – Alan Watts espoused it) is that God is pretty much everything, and we are sparks of God – God experiences his creations through us. Hence we are “of God.” This is similar to the Jewish / Christian view that were were created in God’s image – meaning, we are each facets of God. Christians (at least some) will argue that we should be Christlike. What is that but Godlike only with emphasis on Christian Love vs. Odin’s Ire? My own personal view is similar, but not identical, to the Eastern view. But this view is not Scientology. The “Hubbardian” view is basically what you see in the Factors, and follows along in the various chunks of Scientology writings, which is that we are each unique beings and always have been, endowed with whatever volume of “theta” we started with. I personally don’t hold that view.
And by the way – Since I am on the topic – this is why I always knew the Creed to be basically BS (or “PR”) and that the trappings of priest collars, eight-pointed crosses, and minister’s course, and all that was bullshit, was because of the reference to God in the Creed – “The laws of God” – what God? “No agency less than God” – again, what God? Ron himself said that the eighth dynamic was not really “God” but Infinity. It’s “whatever’s left.”
Mike Rinder put it well recently when Sylvia Stanard spoke at the Chauquatua conference and lied about what Scientology really believed. Why lie about it? I always hated that about Scientology. If you believe you lived before, just cussing SAY it. If you don’t believe in God, then don’t equivocate about it – state it. State what you do believe – “we are each of us potentially infinite in survival, in power, in ” whatever. Say “We don’t believe in the King Bee.” Just say it and deal with it.
Vin, I thoroughly enjoy reading all the comments and this thread particularly. I’m loving the way communication is open to speak or not.
About policing, well that’s what I get from some of yours. Isn’t it great to speak to others without having to be policed? That’s why for years I stuck with the Bunker because one could say what one thought about the subject and accepted what came back. I don’t think there is a ‘standard tech’ to Marty’s blog since he sort of said, – well have at it.
I can be “bad” too, so your not alone, haha.
This is a fascinating subject to me. I don’t think I will attempt to get into it here and now, except to say this is related to the “political history” of Scientology. I was born ion 1945, the year WWII ended and the lead-up to the Korean war was already in progress. In th eUSA, political movements like HUAC (House Unamerican Activites Committee) and Senator Joe McCarthy was soon to be a rising star in American politics. J. Edgar Hoover was head of the FBI, busily compiling enemies lists in the interests of “national security”. The Vietnam war was coming. The Cuban missile crisis was coming. ETC.
I am saying that I have not seen ANY group determined to survive, that would not and did not do absolutely ANYTHING it perceived as necessary to insure its survival, no matter how dirty and destructive. One possible exception is Buddhism. Overall Buddhist seem to have generally stayed away from politics, but I have not studied the political history of Buddhism very much. Is much even written about it? Not in the Western world it seems to me. Hubbard once lauded Buddhism as “the only major religion that was never(?) disseminated by force”. Is that actually true? I wonder.
None of this is to say that the LRH statements and policies in question were not ugly, destructive, assholish, insane, whatever.
My point is that I have not seen much in the behavior of the government of any country or organization that was really determined to survive, that was any better. Not Christianity. Not Islam. Not the Vatican.
I am not saying any of that is or was “Good” or “Right”. I am saying that it is par for the course in terms of “politics” on earth. The bottom line in political decisions is ALWAYS DESTROY YOUR ENEMIES BY WATEVER MEANS POSSIBLE. Is it “Right”? You tell me.
I don’t doubt there was opposition to LRH and Dianetics and Scientology. Was there as much as he thought? Was the opposition as dangerous as he thought? Some people think so. Others don’t. I have no idea. I know there are varying accounts and pro and cons published on the subject. Having seen the decades from the 1950s up to the present pass by, I do know that “politics” is a dirty, dirty business and anyone who gets involved with it will get sullied. Yet it seems unavoidable at times. AsTruman demonstrated when he decide it was expedient to drop atomic bombs on Japan put some “heads on pikes” as a warning to th eSovier Union and othe countries who might decide to cross the interests of the US and Europe.
I am not being an “apologist for Hubbard”. I am saying if we’re going to talk about what is “Good”, and what is “Right” we are talking anbpout “ethics” by any standard, not just scientology’s.
I still recommend Jacob Needleman’s book “Why can’t we be good?” as a good introduction to the subjects of Ethics and Conscience.
What made me ask the Q? Simple, as I included in the Q. Curious. I’m a curious person and like to know what makes people tick. How’s that? The answer is in you Vin and you did a fine job on listing. Geirs blog came up with a good one. Can you let it go and keep it simple, I can. Life is what one makes it, no? You’re a lot of fun Vin and I saw the sparkle in your eye and warmth in your heart at Flag Down, a nice guy. (just a little pushy on some blogs, and I wanted to ask). Peace and love!
“Maybe not!” Please don’t apologize for there is nothing to apologize for.
I was a scientologist for 13 years out of 78. I understand how hard it is to stop thinking like one and using the terms I now completely disagree with. I’ve blended into a saner world. Only in the last 3 & 1/2 years have I really looked deep, researched and put all the dots together and hey, may connect some more yet.
GRASSHOPPER…..”Dynamic is the “bigness” of the being, and some people had more than others. Intelligence could be improved, according to Ron, but Dynamic was constant. Hence, you have bug dynamic guys vs. wusses. Big Beings vs minions.””
would be passible if you could hit me with more info on this? I really would like to understand this concept..I know about it but I haven’t the clue how LRH has seen this. and I am very bad with researched. Thank you in advance! Best to YOU. E.
You wrote: “I am saying that I have not seen ANY group determined to survive, that would not and did not do absolutely ANYTHING it perceived as necessary to insure its survival, no matter how dirty and destructive.” Next time you get a free hour take a walk down to your local YMCA and see what goes on there. It might encourage you to venture forth more often from your bunker.
Grasshopper: “…Scn promotes the “some are gods, some are minions” point of view…This concept goes back pre-Scientology and pre-Thetan, with the PV=IDx equation out of Book One – Potential Value (of a person) is equal to Intelligence times Dynamic to an unspecified power. Dynamic is the “bigness” of the being, and some people had more than others”
The idea I got as to what was meant by that came from *Science of Survival* and to me there is truth in what is said in the excerpt below – I think we’ve all observed this in life:
“The amount of free theta with which an individual is endowed is enormously important. The amount of free theta has a great deal to do with the persistence or reasoning force of the individual along any course. This would be the volume of a person. The quality of a person would be more a structural thing. To make this clearer, a person may have an enormous volume of endowed theta, and yet not have the structure with which to be intelligent. Or he may have a quality index which is very high and yet not have sufficient endowment of theta to execute the plans which he can conceive. We have all known the individual who received A’s in every course and yet who was never able to do anything with his education. And we have known the individual who received nothing in the way of grades and who, indeed, never seemed even to comprehend elementary subjects, and yet who, by power of personality, forged ahead to a high position in life. A study of this matter gives a useful evaluation of human potentiality and behavior.” (SOS)
Thank you, mate,
Where do you live? Just wondered.
You know, I am far away from being a fanatic on anything, scientology included. But I have one clear vision and theory on some of the main reasons for the ‘all out’ attacks and nulling by so many people in this blog and elsewhere on the tech, auditing. and Ethics. I am speaking here about ex-scientologists. Here it is:
All those so strongly against the tech, here and elsewhere, including Marty, Geir and others have never experienced a simple thing: getting long term services and auditing by a high quality auditor and C/S, IN A TRULY FREE AND SANE ENVIRONMENT. With spiritual and mental work designed only for their own benefit, and no other agendas/arbitraries outside the auditing room.
Hell, even the head partners of Dror Center, where I recovered beautifully from the huge suppressive hole dug for me by the CoS, and where I am happily doing my NOTS now, Dani and Tami, have never received such services either…funny, they are providing them to others, but had to somehow drag their cases through the suppressive CoS Orgs.
It needs to be done to be understood. Auditing now, as a free being, and auditing in the CoS of recent decades are not even related! Period.
In other words these critiques are missing most valuable data relating to the tech: its delivery without any suppression versus (what they justly criticise) delivery under heavy suppression.
I remember 1st Indie session with the incredible claudio lugli, I kept asking him: “is this a session”? And him smiling: yes, sure…it was all smiles and relaxed, and if I cracked a real good joke, the auditor would naturally and heartily laugh…incredible, it was almost the same as sitting having a chat over a cofee, with a friend. BUT ALSO, totaly accurate work with PC interested and focused on his case.
I invite anybody to prove me wrong on this. This is a serious question to anybody shooting the (whole) tech down, including Marty:
“Have you honestly received it as it should be delivered?”
I know that Marty did! AS AN AUDITOR, not as a pc. And the results according to what I read were INCREDIBLE!! So many people reporting best auditing ever, fantastic wins. I remember Luis Garcia’s post on this true scientology auditing with Marty, best he ever had. That was only 1-2 years ago. And that was as I understood scientology auditing, using the tech properly, correctly. I had very similar best ever auditing right from 1st session as a frightened CoS refugee Indie. And it continued and still does on and on.
And I cognited many times, that doing all that same auditing in the CoS, instead of as an Indie in a high quality delivery, I probably would have gone mad, OR run away from the subject altogether, and reach the same lethal and negative conclusions that so many good people come to in here and elsewhere.
I rest my Theory case…
Hemi
Grasshopper, you nailed it!
You are right of course Marty. There are also orgs like Salvation Army, Goodwill, Purple Heart and others. Are they “determined to survive” ?
I appreciate your pointing out these other types of orgs.
So what am I talking about? Evidently, the distinction might be that some orgs have enemies and some don’t. Once they perceive that their survival is threatened, they either start to “fight back”, as they percieve they must in order to survive.
OK. So, would anyone oppose the Salvation Army? Perhaps the Chinese government would, simply because it is a “Christian” organization. What would happen then? Does the Salvation Army, or the YMCA(Young Men’s Christian Association), have any “enemies”? In some countries I guess it could exist in spirit, but would need to be called the YMMA, “Young Men’s Muslim Association”.
Giving rather than receiving as a basis seems to be at least part of the key. Givng in abundance, more than one receives perhaps. Overdeliver, in a sense.
“It’s a tangled web we’ve woven…..”
Baby…. I must continue with the communication, and let you know I hold you in high regards for standing up of your belief.. I do not think of you less, not even for a moment.. all I can say: good for you girl and I a truly sorry that you have had bad experiences with scientology. I really am, and I do wish you the best on your chosen Path. You might not believe this but .. your friend Elizabeth. PS; you are a great sparing partner and next time you are lurking in my blog please say hello.! 🙂 with affection 🙂
Thanks for your goodwill. I really do appreciate it. And I have many of those books, and have read some of them. Rather than get into the fine points of where I’m coming from, I’ll post this reference: “There’s more than one answer to these questions…..”
I’m trying to tell you somethin’ about my life
Maybe give me insight between black and white
And the best thing you’ve ever done for me
Is to help me take my life less seriously
It’s only life after all, yea
Well darkness has a hunger that’s insatiable
And lightness has a call that’s hard to hear
And I wrap my fear around me like a blanket
I sailed my ship of safety till I sank it
I’m crawling on your shores
And I went to the doctor, I went to the mountains
I looked to the children, I drank from the fountains
There’s more than one answer to these questions
Pointing me in a crooked line
And the less I seek my source for some definitive
(The less I seek my source)
Closer I am to fine
(Fine, yea)
Closer I am to fine
(Fine, yea)
And I went to see the doctor of philosophy
With a poster of Rasputin and a beard down to his knee
He never did marry or see a B grade movie
He graded my performance, he said he could see through me
I spent four years prostrate to the higher mind
Got my paper and I was free
And I went to the doctor, I went to the mountains
(Ooh)
I looked to the children, I drank from the fountains
There’s more than one answer to these questions
Pointing me in a crooked line
And the less I seek my source for some definitive
(The less I seek my source)
Closer I am to fine
(Fine, yea)
Closer I am to fine
(Fine, yea)
I stopped by the bar at three a.m.
To seek solace in a bottle or possibly a friend
And I woke up with a headache like my head against the board
Twice as cloudy as I’d been the night before
And I went in seeking clarity
I went to the doctor, I went to the mountains
I looked to the children, I drank from the fountains
And we go to the doctor, we go to the mountains
We look to the children, we drink from the fountains
Yea we go to the bible, we go through the workout
We read up on revival, we stand up for the lookout
There’s more than one answer to these questions
Pointing me in a crooked line
The less I seek my source for some definitive
(The less I seek my source)
Closer I am to fine
(Fine)
Closer I am to fine
(Fine)
Closer I am to fine
(Fine, yea)
What “scientologists” and “critics” alike fail to understand about me is, I actually can tell the difference between darkness and light. I have at different times, been submerged in both. Friends help me to keep my balance. You think “scientology” is “all darkness” and you think you need to save me from that. Actually, it has both. Friends help me to identify which is which, when I appear to be uncertain or lost.
Best wishes.
Thank you for your reply Grasshopper. I respect your answering me. I just don’t agree with any of it.
I can NOT accept the whole Space Opera Scientology R6 Implant as anything but Science Fiction Fantasy.
I understand also what you are writing about the Big Beings and minions.. I again do not agree with it. I do appreciate the time that you took to write.
As I understand Vin, his issue is that “beings” arise out of nothing. So where is the “space” you speak of coming from? The Mahayana answer is that consciousness is beginningless and endless, because of the very infinite regressions that Vin objects to, if conciousness awareness, or beingness is considered to have a beginning. Or end.
This loooks like a difference of wording. Above you describe being “mindful of awareness”. LRH called it being “aware of awareness”.
Need I say more?
Marty, i didn’t read your blog for a long time. I understand your evolution. But from a marxist viewpoint, you’ve become an “objective friend” of Miscavige.
You actually took the head of a revolution. Without your blog I and my family would be still in the church. You provided a middle path where you would attack the fascist attitude of DM while keeping the subject of scientology. You had an fast succes, why? Because some truth where being said. Particularly that DM is a suppressive. Correct item for many, no?
But now, people from the church reading your blog would have the conclusion that you turned on to be an ennemy of scientology and Hubbard and stay in the chruch. The nightmare of “COB” was you, because you were delivering auditing and freedom. So his customers, cash cow, would leave his shop to go into the indie field. That was a threat for his monoploy, power and dollars.
We used stats in scientology, and unfortunately to the bad name of the practice, It’s a very usefull tool. And I say that the stat of the indie are down. No more coming out of scientologists on your blog. Why would they come out on an ennemy blog.
The demonstration is made that scientology doesn’t survive long out of the chruch so they stay in. For all the reasons we know. I looked at Steve Hall blog, the indie 500. It stucks, dead. Apparently Miscavige won. And the customers are continuing paying at infinitum. The idea of DM is certainly not to be short of cash, to pay the lawyers etc…
I don’t make a philosophic point just political one.
The indies are loosing the second war (first in 1983)
You hit it right, Marty, about my bunker mentality. I started buildin gthat bunker very young, at about 3-4 years old. But I spent most of my time out of it.
The past 3-4 years, I have wanted little more than to make my bunker as comfortable as I could for myself as I tried to wrap up things that still needed wrapping up, as best I could, because the owl called my name 3 times in the past 4 years. You’ve helped me a lot in this time, as have others.
I have been venturing out more, and this has to do with my more active posting here, dark and light. In a couple of weks I am actually driving to Chicago with an old friend I haven’t seen in 52(!) years!
Here’s a song I think is beautiful and speaks to the human condition. It certainly speaks to a condition I have experienced many times:
The evolution into anti-hubbard is making COB right. It proves that the church was right to say that scientology is only possible on the church. So they stay.
Anything attacking the church (Haters, anticult, french and german government…) is MONEY. It’s food for IAS. DM will raise money to fight you if you are anti scientology.
The only threat for DM is delivery of scientology outside the church.
I would add a sad point. I think actual good comm cycle is out in the church and out of the church. On that point Marty you were so right. Real empathy and understanding are the root necessary for auditing and any psychotherapie to occur. We all went in scientology to have case gain.
I had so many in the seventies and eighties. Auditing was always bringing joy. And in the eighties, DM personnality and lies invade scientology, comm went out, eval, inval, wrong indications. And for me the wins dissapear. Had all kind of trouble very well described of what happen to a PC when tech is out, out, out.
But what is mostly out is understanding,it’s on the attitude of the auditor. Even in the indie field, sometimes it’s not in.
E – The tape “The Free Being” discusses it well. The PV=IDx equation is in DMSMH – he describes it there, and in Red Volume 1. There are some BC tapes that cover the topic of Thetans vs God knows what – Doll Bodies. It’s been a while.
Val said.. ”
” I am saying that I have not seen ANY group determined to survive, that would not and did not do absolutely ANYTHING it perceived as necessary to insure its survival, no matter how dirty and destructive. ”
…………………………………………………..
I am stunned. Absolutely stunned. Once again Val. You are talking about a very evil and dangerous cult.
Hubbard was a liar. He invented a religion that was created as a MIND FUCK. He Owns You. He Owns your Mind. Your decisions are made by him. No one is clear. There is NO bridge. It is a game created by a monster who was a sick bastard. Read This. then read it again.
Thank you.
http://tonyortega.org/2014/08/21/jon-atack-the-games-l-ron-hubbard-played/
I think LRH’s view of God is based on his own lack of humility and abundance of pride. Like Crowley, they both wanted personal power. That is likely the reason he loved Crowley so much. I think humility and pride are a factor for each and every one of us when it comes to shaping our view or acceptance of a higher power and how we relate to it. I don’t think its a bad thing, of itself, that the description of the 8th dynamic was left quite open or broad. The fatal ommission was that it was left without proper importance. But that is why scientology is scientology, basically god-less, except for those super beings in the SO or IAS or whatever. Its actually sad that LRH was devoid of all the humanity that goes with a personal relationship with a higher power. It left both him and his creation in very bad shape. (Crowley too)
thank you @Vinaire for your acknowledment .. I have studied Scientology in an academy for a very short time .. then I had enough .. studied after all for myself .. became called a squirrel because of no check outs .. and then my study was called as nothing .. but by reality, I have much more studied from LRH than all of this evaluators .. but as Marty said at the beginning of this thread .. more of 90% of LRH work goes over wrongdoing of his works ..
But standard tech is explicit today only reading an e-meter right (which is maybe impossible) and asking questions for which LRH did ask the whole for everyone .. remember to Joburg sec check ..
I found sometimes a girl which I liked, and she ran with me a full joburg for finding out of my intensions .. what? That’s squirrel with tech, she should have look for herself and decide whether she liked me or not, not finding out what happens when she ask me about all this overt .. but I realised that a scientologist has to have a lot of fear to do it wrong .. and this is my view of what standard tech is .. a fear of doing it wrong .. basically a good idea only this is complete idiocity .. naturally you can sec check your friends every day and at all events .. but why you call them friends?
I call myself Friend in this blog (also by Mike Rinder) .. simply because I have miissed that in my whole scientology experience .. scientologists with the idea of standard tech cannot be firiends ..
My old question was and is always ”would I go with him/her into a battle” is there trust that will stay or it is a mockery of nothing ..
thank you for hearing me ..
It is wonderful to see you so free De. 🙂
Your propensity for glib, confident evaluation of others that is strewn with inaccuracy and arrogance is a fine display of standard scientology.
Well, I am learning to let go of any resistance under the discipline of mindfulness. Therefore, some of these weird impulses, which were restrained before, may get manifested. For example, reading and responding obsessively on blogs and trying to communicate my epiphanies. But, I am sure, that if I continue to be mindful, these impulses will run themselves out.
I am already making some strides on improving upon the Discussion policy here.
http://independent-spiritual-technology.com/discussion/index.php?topic=981.0
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________________________________
And on the squirrel cage wheel churns, chewing on the never-ending supply of contradiction as noted in the post.
VALKOV: “I am saying that I have not seen ANY group determined to survive, that would not and did not do absolutely ANYTHING it perceived as necessary to insure its survival,”
That is a good point, Valkov.
I would like to look more closely at this phrase “determined to survive”. It gives me this kind of thought process, “I am right and rightness must survive.” So, there is ego built into the impulse to survive. This ego will go ahead and destroy whatever, it thinks, may oppose it, even before anything opposes it.
So, the impulse to survive seems to be similar to the fixation, such as, “I am right, others are wrong.”
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Grasshopper wrote:
And I will add to this: Ron did not believe in a Supreme Being.
I understand what you are saying here from his “research discoveries” on the BC which led him to conclude that apparently there is no “Big Thetan”.
However, earlier than that, Ron very much believed in God, and apparently the anthropomorphic one.
Read his Admissions. They are an invaluable insight into his own mind and the things he was trying to handle about himself. His belief in God is very clear there.
The fact is, that the guy was all over the highway when it came to so many things. The Admissions reveal what kinds of things he believed, how he saw other people, how he saw the world, what problems he felt he had, and how he could solve them.
Click to access Admissions.pdf
Alanzo
VALKOV: “I am not being an “apologist for Hubbard”. I am saying if we’re going to talk about what is “Good”, and what is “Right” we are talking anbpout “ethics” by any standard, not just scientology’s.”
Hubbard was a product of the American society. He absorbed the fixations of this society. Survival is a fixation in American society and America is trying to overpower any opposition to it in the rest of the world.
This is an honest look. Valkov is correct in pointing at American impulse to survive as the model for Scientology’s impulse to survive. It will be a very good exercise for an American to look at America from the viewpoint of other nations.
I know that most Americans may cringe at this brief analysis. But this is the IS-NESS. Scientology is a reflection of America in many ways. It is an American religion. The first for America.
.
Those were comments on Kant’s philosophy.
And Val, as to your history in scien, very interesting, reminds me of mine..The legendary HQS hard TRs, these things really made huge life changes and woke me up. I’m talking early 80s. OT TR0 done, is that not the entrance gate to any fruitful Meditation? Isn’t it in itself a form of meditation?
I too used to ger despaired now and again encountering the robotismn and basic stupidity in Orgs, BUT HAD THE LUCK to encounter occasionally a wise and enlighted person who helped restore “the faith”.
About you getting auditing, you write:
“I have looked into getting some auditing a liitle but haven’t found my way clear to it yet”
it just seemed to me a common sense suggestion based on your writings on the subject. Of course the large potential benefit for you is another relevant point – only if you agree of course. about age, I understand, I am not young either, but as we know, it is possible to look at things from few angles. A) being old and so forget about auditing. B) being old and therefore wishing to give it another good try…
Fortunately this technique does not involve mountain climbing or deep North Sea diving…just the ability to sit on a chair and try not to fall asleep with all that comfort…Ah…and LOOK.
Also, auditing does not have to be long and arduous, or the whole bridge. It can cover limited areas in life one wishes to look at and confront, and needs a little help from a friend. As you wrote to Al, people doing the whole bridge are fine, but also fine is people doing a short service, sorting out an area, and then going away happy, applying it to life, and never needing anytrhing else. At Dror Center, where I get services, you can observe these 2 kinds, and both are warmly welcome. This horrible attitude in the CoS, making you wrong or guilty or pts… for not wishing more services NOW…bad for everyone. And implants “other determinism” rather than “self determinism”….The same with the wins, nobody will ever press you to write a win here. I have written tens of wins that I insisted ro write, some of which could enter the “Tao Te Ching” I swear, but every time I looked for, I could not find the damn “win forms”, on which to write… they are never in sight, always hidden at some draw…you see,,, I’m critical here. Ha ha he’s got overts, “have you stolen wins forms?”
And thats another difference from the corporate: PR comes last. Wins FIRST. Cheers.
Ron’s idea of God was the OT who is at the top of the heap of OTs.
First it was Him. Now it is Miscavige.
>
Thank you Vinaire. Like many, I’m a work in progress.
The Eastern concept of God has to be understood in itself and not through the filter of the Western concept of God.
Theism, Atheism and Non-theism
(Wikipedia) The term theism derives from the Greek theos meaning “god”. … they are “strictly and properly called Theists, who affirm, that a perfectly conscious understanding being, or mind, existing of itself from eternity, was the cause of all other things”.
(Wikipedia) Atheism is rejection of theism in the broadest sense of theism; i.e. the rejection of belief that there is even one deity.
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Theism views God, in its special role, to be separate from all existence. A culture that believes in theism assigns a similar role to self as being spiritual and separate from the physical existence around it.
The concepts of theism and atheism are coming strictly from a SELF-CENTRIC viewpoint. They are for or against “self” being the ultimate reality. The concepts of theism and atheism are created out of a focus on self.
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The concepts of theism or atheism are foreign to the East and do not apply to the Vedic religions. Therefore, we may call them non-theistic in nature. Some people consider Vedic religions to be atheistic or polytheistic because they are looking through a filter of theism-atheism.
Abrahamic religions, such as, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, are theistic. The Vedic religions, such as, Hinduism, Buddhism and Sikhism, are non-theistic.
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Non-theism is based on the reality of existence. A non-theistic culture does not separate self from other things, but sees everything as part of the same reality of existence. The concept of non-theism, therefore, comes from a REALITY-CENTRIC viewpoint.
Theism, therefore, is self-centric. Non-theism is reality-centric.
Theism is based on subjectivity. Non-theism is based on objectivity.
Theism takes the affinities of people and molds it into a reality that is built around the idea of God. Non-theism takes the existing reality and transforms it into a sense of all-inclusive affinity.
The focus of Theism is on the uniqueness of self (individuality). This gives rise to the ideas of us and them. The focus of Non-theism is on oneness of all existence. Thus, differences may arise but they are secondary.
Theism holds a special idea of God. The idea of being one with God is unacceptable to it. Non-theism holds no special idea of God. The idea of being one with ultimate reality is part of it.
FRIEND: “I call myself Friend in this blog (also by Mike Rinder) .. simply because I have miissed that in my whole scientology experience .. scientologists with the idea of standard tech cannot be firiends.”
I am sure you will make lots of new friends on this blog.
.
Marildi – Science of Survival is another reference, indeed. I don’t buy the idea that people are “endowed” (endowed by whom?) with differing levels of Theta, and that the level is unchangeable. The idea that some people are more valuable or more endowed (as it were) than others leads to a lot of badness. Regardless, I just do believe it to be true. Ron had this wrong, and it lead to bad things.
Baby – I dig your opinion on Space Opera. I figured that to be the case, but it helps to understand what is there vs. what appears to be there, in Scientology. The idea that the R6 implant flashes images of a bearded God, which therefore proves that Scientology pushes forth that _everyone_ who believes in God does so by means of implant, is not accurate. But it’s moot these days, because a lot of Scientologists think it means that, too. I don’t buy the “Big being/small being” thing either. There are a lot of reasons I am sure why Richard Branson is Richard Branson, and the Walmart greeter is the Walmart greeter, but I am sure it is NOT because one is a “bigger thetan” than the other.
I don’t know Alanzo – I never put too much into the “confessions.” The tapes and writings of LRH from 1949 onward are pretty clear that God is out of the picture.
Valkov, the “awareness of awareness” is called consciousness.
From The Nature of Consciousness
“In the beginning there is only awareness. Since there is nothing else to be aware of, there is simply self-awareness. This is consciousness.
“The fundamental awareness is consciousness.”
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Valkov: “As I understand Vin, his issue is that “beings” arise out of nothing… “
Valkov, you have understood me all wrong on many fronts.
(1) Awareness (not “beings”) arise out of a ground state (not nothing). .
(2) The ground state is not nothing. It is simply unknowable. The ground state is unknowable because there is no awareness at that level.
(3) There could be infinite regression, but that is speculation. We simply don’t know what is beyond awareness.
(4) What arises at first is awareness and not “beings”. Beings are formed out of awareness.
(5) Initial beinness has the form of light. There is no intelligence at thsi level, Intelligence develops later.
(7) Space is part of the form that arises from awareness,
See The Nature of Form
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Response to Hemi
HEMI: ”All those so strongly against the tech, here and elsewhere, including Marty, Geir and others have never experienced a simple thing: getting long term services and auditing by a high quality auditor and C/S, IN A TRULY FREE AND SANE ENVIRONMENT. With spiritual and mental work designed only for their own benefit, and no other agendas/arbitraries outside the auditing room.”
“Feeling good’ is easily achievable outside Scientology. There is nothing unique about Scientology in this respect. The EPs promised in Scientology are not achievable in any objective form. Just look at yourself.
From what I have read from your posts you are far from being humble and compassionate. To me being humble and compassionate are the markers of spiritual advancement.
.
Thanks Vin. I had something in mind when I used that phrase, but I did not make it clear and overstated my case. See Mary’s correction to my statement, which was very accurate. The way I wrote it WAS from a “bunker mentality” that ignored groups that were not oriented that way.
But I think you perceive correctly, that what I was trying to convey is that a group that is “determined to survive” is aready to some degree an otherdetermined group – it perceives, rightly or wrongly, that there are counter-intentions to its survival. And those are the kinds of groups I meant, which unfortuantely include most of the major groups that control or influence our lives, like givernments and corporate interests.
But Marty did bring a lot of light to my overly dark and absolute statement of it and he is right about that.
I do think there is an “Americanness” about LRon. Now, I know there are Russian, and European, and Chinese, and Pakistani, etc, individuals who are like that too. It is a human type. But Hubbard does exemplify some of the qualities I think of as “American” that are all tied up with American history, which goes back to the British isles and Europe. Hubbard actually commented on this himself in some of his writings, fiction and non-fiction both, as in his Western stories in which he tended to take the side of the Native Americans and painted the Europeans with a black brush as bringing guns, whiskey, and Jesus in as the advance guards for imperialism. In the Phoenix Lectures he characterized this as the Western philosophy of “striking a hard blow” as the way to survive.
America does have at least one home grown religion, the Mormon..
Are you guys talking bout what I think of as his “Affirmations”?
GH, it may well be that “endowed” was not a good word to use, or even a correct word to use. But would you agree with what I noted – that it is observable in life that people do vary as to their overall capabilities. whether the word “capabilities” or “gifts” – or “theta” – is used?
At the moment, I can’t think of anything Ron said about “big thetans” – other than something about there being no “big thetan” in reference to God (similar to many other systems of thought). It was DM who reportedly, and arrogantly, said about himself and Tom Cruise being big thetans.
Also, you wrote that the Eastern view is that “God is pretty much everything.” Is that different from the concept of the 8th dynamic, which was described as “infinity” and “the allness of all”?
V………”2) The ground state is not nothing. It is simply unknowable. The ground state is unknowable because there is no awareness at that level.”
Your assumption if there is something than it is KNOWABLE’ but there can not be something and not knowable.. That just dont fit together!
If something is Unknowable than one do not know its existence!
If you say.. Oh there is something there but I do not know what it is well that explanation it self is not correct. You need to explain what make you believe that something is there.. How you perceive that something. How you have come to the conclusion and stating that in your post.
Try Alter-is and Degraded Beings. Selective amnesia is apparently another self-imposed ailment in scientology.
Elizabeth, for that you have to study the following page:
KHTK Philosophy
.
I do remember that about degraded beings, but also that they can be helped with auditing and thus that their “volume of theta” is actually changeable. I had in mind what Grasshopper was talking about, which was the idea that NATIVE volume was unchangeable.
But you are right that in the “Alter-is and Degraded Beings” HCOB, Ron does say that “Some thetans are bigger than others. None are truly equal.” That still makes sense to me, based on my own observations of people.
And thus you are locked into the scientology cognitive conundrum.
Fortunately, once the whole thing resolves there is nothing left to stick to, only a happy memory like the love of a mother or a good friendship, and those memories never go away. They don’t need to.
The wonderful exceptions to the rule.
It is related to the technology of holograms. Every point in a hologram contains the entire hologram.
Hey Brian,
Here is a short response: I looked at faith-based spirituality but it’s just not my style. I need to understand. I’m basically a scientist. So I abandoned the idea of Western religions.
Philosophy was interesting but how do you apply it? It’s just a bunch of ideas. Kind of like, “OK, now what?”
I studied the Tao and Buddhism, primarily Zen Buddhism. They seemed to be closest to my basic nature (I’m not prone to believe that there is anything personal about Infinity).
Tried different forms of meditation – never did much for me. I guess the issue was that it was a non-directed approach. I could go on meditating for some time with nothing happening.
By using a targeted approach on a particular topic (button, whatever) I could get to the bottom of things. When you look at it, it’s basically a personal research tool. Keeps you focused on the issue at hand. You can research anything you’re being bothered by or are interested in. And with the result of an intellectual understanding coupled with a sort of “peak experience” – a direct realization of some part of your basic nature. I ended up with new understandings and states in an extremely finite period of time (hours instead of day or weeks with meditation).
So for me just taking out all the Hubbard BS you are left with what I call “the pure track of technology”. I know, I know, Marty is saying there is no standard tech. For me this “pure track of technology” is just too simple: It starts with a pure comm formula with no eval or inval. Then Act 1 – basically the auditor just being there to help and absolutely nothing else. Then the process itself taken to completion. Hubbard found hundreds of them. And that’s all! As I said. It’s just too damn simple.
In my experience as an auditor and personally it works just like that. I audited a lot of Life Repairs and these people didn’t really have a clue as to what I was doing. They just answered the questions and they ended up with an understanding and a “peak experience”. I had the same experience myself as a new PC.
But I’m not asking anybody to believe any of this. As I said in my earlier post just do it and come to your own conclusion. It may not work for all. I couldn’t possibly say. But I do know from just my personal experience that many people come to a greater realization of themselves coupled with an improved ability to handle life.
And frankly I could care less if Hubbard stole it from half a dozen unacknowledged sources, or if he was really “only a tyrannical money-grubbing ego maniac” or it was actually developed by the Man in the Moon.
I like it!
You’re doing what Hubbard was never willing to do – just take the part that works and freely give it to the world.
Here’s a conundrum: For some women, givin birth to a baby is both an engram and a pleasure moment.
Well, there is phenomenon, and there is hypothesis to explain that phenomenon. I am sure there are hypotheses other than Scientology that can explain the “Clearing phenomenon” better.
Here is an analysis of the Source process on Clearing Course:
“SOURCE” – A Scientology Power Process
.
What works in the background of the Clearing Course is mindfulness.
.
I believe that nobody can get of this hell hole alone.
Great post, Marty!
What a trip it’s been.
All the best to you, Mosey and William.
❤
It just saddens me that there are people that are still trapped Elizabeth. Don’t you miss your family that don’t share your views?
Do you really know Hubbard the man? Have you read the many books about him. Not Hubbard’s books, but others who has researched thoroughly.
Your reply was nice. Thank you.
+++ 🙂
Baby Dear girl.. no I never met Hubbard I did not like him as a man, something I felt was not in harmony. If I miss family who do not share my views? No, I have learned way back that the Path of Self-discovery is a path for person only. Our-self have created that Path and it is compiled by our experiences and no other person can duplicated our realities. Therefore we have to confront that Path alone.. No I have not studied others or even Hubbard, but I have read enough of Hubbard’s work and some of it is brilliant , and some should never bee said but from experience I know from that the Auditing technology is priceless, brilliant and because of it works. To me that is goo enough and I dont care about the rest. I know we all have good and bad side not only Hubbard had that. Hehehe Baby my dear, We should not be throwing stones because we live in a glass house Example? If I am nasty to you, what do I get back? . We all have done our self plenty bad stuff in the past so we are not angels . LRH was not on ordinary man, his good what he give was extraordinary so was the bad stuff he spread around. But this is how I see it. By the way our nasty communication was not really nasty, we have expressed different view. nothing more than that and that is perfectly all right. Happy that you have written! Any time, please feel free. Love Elizabeth
I have really been in wonder at how well you’ve succeeded in keeping up!
Best of all, however, is that it seems to me you’ve found your voice. 😉
Thanks. I thought of holograms too, for some reason, but now I couldn’t say why. 🙂
Hiya!
Mighty fine article.
I can’t recall seeing so many responses in the past although I haven’t visited in a while.
Naturally my life is not long enough to actually read all of the responses.
Now to locate a dictionary and look up that word. What was it…
internecine? Hmmm. It looks like a word I’d like to get acquainted with.
Glad to see you still going strong.
Another reason why Scientology must continuously be restored, improved, re-interpreted, corrected, etc is in order to keep the rubes buying the same old, same old, over and over ad infinitum. As W. C. Fields spoke the immortal line: ” Never give a sucker and even break.”
Cat Daddy,
LOVE me some Dixie Chicks. This song sums it up pretty good.
I just found this on Joe Larabells site and thought it was appropriate on this blog:
The following is a short parody of a paper which is found at the very start of every course textbook used in Scientology. The actual author would prefer to remain anonymous for obvious reasons.
One:
Stealing the correct technology
Two:
Knowing the stolen technology
Three:
Knowing it is stolen
Four:
Hiding the original correct technology
Five:
Mis-applying the technology
Six:
Seeing that the stolen technology is incorrectly mis-applied
Seven:
Hammering out of existance correct technology
Eight:
Knocking out correct applications
Nine:
Closing the door on any possibility of correct technology by copyrighting everything
Ten:
Slamming the door on correct application
One above has been done.
Two has been achieved by few.
Three has been well hidden by the group applying the incorrect technology in an esoteric manner and observing that people don’t know the difference.
Four is being done covertly in most parts of the world.
Five is consistently accomplished daily.
Six is achieved by management consistently.
Seven is done by the many who are weak points.
Eight is worked hard on.
Nine is impeded by the bright attitude of the not quite “reasonable.”
Ten is seldom done without gross withholds.
One, Two, Three, Four, Five, Six, Seven, Eight, Nine, and Ten are the only places Scientology can bog down in every area.
Dio
Very insightful Marty and I agree with what you write 100%!!!
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