Dangerous Thoughts?

I recently caught wind of a whispering campaign wafting amongst independent Scientologists.  The message warns true believers to stay away from Memoirs Of A Scientology Warrior Apparently, some folks consider it a threat to orthodox, unchallengeable thought (belief).

For the benefit (or detriment, depending on one’s point of view) of those who might have had some of the campaign’s sentiment rub off on them, I am posting here some other points of view from people who have actually read the book.  I pulled several of them from the comments section of the blog – recognizing that a lot of people either don’t read comments or only some of them.  A few of the entries are reviews posted at the Amazon Books page for the book.  I have included the names or handles of the authors they were posted under.

Thanks to all of you who took the time to share your impressions and thoughts.

David Richards:

If you have been a Scientologist, if someone close to you has been a Scientologist, if you have ever wondered about the Church of Scientology; read this book.


Top shelf. Anyone at all interested in the “cult” would be well served to read Rathbun’s history as he lays it out bare for all herein. Really good read and great writing skill.

The Bookster:

This should be required reading, not only for those who have left the group, but for those who are still enjoying acceptance in the group. This read rings true, is entertaining and informative.


Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior offers it all…drama,suspense, but most of all truth! For those involved or not this books delivers so much insight into what happened, and what happens when a corrupt person takes the reigns of any corporation, whether it be a church, a tech company, whatever. I could not put this book down. For me personally my questions were answered and I could finally “let go”!! read it!

Yvonne Schick:

Loved this book. It reads like an action adventure story. Filled with a “what
next” adventure while giving the non-fiction back story on the inside workings
of the Church of Scientology from the only man who could tell it. We are blessed
that Mark/Marty is in a position and willing to share his story. I enjoyed and I
learned and more than once had tears rolling down my cheeks. What more could I ask for?

And, for the record, it is shocking for anyone Scientologist or just interested human being to discover the depth of depravity within the church.


I just finished your latest book. Masterpiece. Incredible food for thought, and absolutely a must- read for anyone who is it was immersed in Scientology. Thanks. I will write more later, but I had to say that it is awesome. Thanks for writing it.


I just read your book. First, Wow! What a journey. You do a wonderful job of walking a reader through your life and your experiences. Your writing style is clear and direct, and several times I was tempted to take a break and come here to comment because of the poignancy and impact of what you were describing. But I ended up reading the first half straight through last night, going to bed, and then finishing the book this morning.
I loved the description of your life leading up to Scientology — it will bug the hell out of the anti crowd, because you so beautifully answer the question “why do people become and stay interested in Scientology even after leaving?”: the question that Wright posed, but never answered. You describe your experiences so lucidly and authentically, that only the most hardcore cultists (in the anti crowd) will find it necessary to deny and fight it.
The details of the Colletto murder … wow. I had read the news reports years later and so was familiar with it from the media’s description, but hearing your first hand, detailed account was gripping.
At a certain point in the book, I knew you could have written tomes on what went down in the legal struggles of the 1980s — but I think you successfully found the right balance of the most salient and important points. I loved the entry of Cooley into the picture. I had really never heard about or understood the FAMCO/DOJ collusion and corruption theory — I had heard about Flynn of course, and was familiar with some of the cases. But I didn’t know it to the level of detail that you provide. I also didn’t realize that the videos of Armstrong were so extensive. I tried watching a couple of the ones with Mike Rinder (the ones I found online), but didn’t have the additional extensive background that you provide which puts it into better context. I do hope that someday, someone also provides all of the documentation you mention (that the G.O. found in the non-FOIA files), and really documents the battle that Hubbard and the early CoS was facing through the 50s-70s. There have been narratives, of course, but I’d really like to see the raw documents. I’ve already seen the FOIA FBI files from the 50s and 60s on Hubbard — if there are other AMA and APA documents which show collusion, wow, THAT is a story that needs telling (and documenting).
I wish there was more on Mary Sue — her steadfast loyalty was incredible. And the part about the lawyer noticing that “Scientologists are too honest” — it’s weirdly true. But maybe “naive” is a better word.
I think you take a fair and unbiased look at Hubbard — of course the fact that you can separate out the wheat from the chaff will drive both sides of the cultic-thinking crowd nuts. And I also appreciate your sharing your take on the OT levels — a view that I personally think is more consistent with the fundamentals of the subject.
I also appreciate that you gave us the verbatim words of Sarge — that helps a person understand the whole picture. (If you’re reading Sarge, thank you for sharing more details. I could tell that Ron was a real friend of yours and I’m sure he appreciated your being there.) Wright did attempt to take additional swipes at Ron through Sarge’s words, and I hope we hear more from Sarge on it someday.
Overall, Marty, your book was both a vindication of the workability of the subject of Scientology and also a poignant and honest representation of the failed organization and the brilliant imperfect man who started it all.
And you’re right — the extremists in both camps will hate it. But I reckon that those who can hew to the middle path will love it.

Bruce Pratt:

“Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.” – Mahatma Gandhi

Thanks for bothering, Marty.

While grace shone upon me with a marvelous time in Panama with my Dad and friends, I had a chance to read your Memoirs.


Among other factors, it was a trip through an amusement park house of mirrors. Not me, but boy, the reflections were unmistakable.

Thank you for the opportunity to see something I would not have seen otherwise.

Brings me back to truth in this universe and my appreciation for your bother.

Truth is an absolute and as such does not lend itself to comparable magnitudes, which from this wonderful level of existence are usually essential for some understanding.

Your experience has aided me to separate LRH the man from his philosophy and the consequences of incorrect or inappropriate application, regardless of my agreement with your position, that of M2 or any other.

Dichotomies are a bitch. Fortunately they are much less so when one gets somewhat exterior to them and can identify them as such as opposed to individual terminals.

Oh, yeah, thank you my friend. Thank you and that powerhouse Mosey.


This book is a non stop roller coaster ride. What an amazing look into the bowels of the Scientology power beast. Here, saving the world can surely end up looking like cookoo land. I highly recommend reading this war time story of the “religion” that seeks destruction of critics.

But all Marty really wanted to do is help his brother and he ended up an intel operative and legal rat fighting cosmic bad guys for the “only hope for man”.

I know people love to hate Marty or put him up on some pedestal. But I gained an empathy for him by understanding the karmic forces that jettisoned him into cookoo land.

I applaud his intimate candor and sensitivity as a boy and cringed at the way he was rocketed, as a young man, into the hypnotic influence of cult mentality.

I recommend this book.


By far the best book by former #2 man in the Church of Scientology. Despite official scientology, those of us who were involved at various levels know full well that Marty Rathbun was a highly respected, feared and dedicated senior official in the Church.

He writes this memoir from his heart – pouring out his early years. The loss of his mother, his love of sports and his failed attempts to save his brother from a life time of psychiatric institutions.

Along the way, Marty reveals his thoughts about what happened to Hubbard. How he became a victim of his own philosophy. Why he created ultimately a draconian organization, intended to save him from those who might harm the organization only to find himself in the end virtually alone and afraid.

One is even left feeling sorry for the man who has become to many the nemesis of “true” scientology — David Miscavige. Himself a 2nd generation scientologist, DM is a man caught up through misplaced devotion and his own delusions in a web of intrigue, abject fear of everyone and an iron fist — made of diamonds he’s ensured are his to wear.

Definitely read this book. You’ll learn a great deal. I did and I’ve been following the unwrapping of the Church of Scientology for over 20 years after being a member for the prior 20.

Pale Horse:

Marty, I just finished reading “Memoirs…”, so your present blog post could not be more timely for me.

When I went Clear in ’92 I wanted to get on with Life and try out my new wings, but as I am sure you can guess, the reg had other things in mind for me – KTL/LOC, the Ls, blah, blah, blah…I was going stir crazy! After finally getting away from Flag and getting back into the real world, I really began to hate what I was starting to become. I find it incredibly embarrassing now to look back and see that I was turning into one of those self-satisfied, Homo Novus, I’m-better-than-Wogs type of Scientologists. And, yes, I suffered the humiliation – Thank God I had the presence of mind to be humiliated! And thank God that phase didn’t last long. It sure was the wake up call I needed to distance myself from the Church.

I particularly loved the last chapter of your book where you spell out the very danger of falling for the Crowley-esque super-ego trip and the demand that you MUST begin the battle against Xenu and the Body Snatchers. Thank God I escaped before I became assimilated by the Borg.

I see now why the M2 crowd and so many “better-than-human” Scientologists are pissed off at you. They enjoy their superiority complex too much. And I also see why you have renounced the label “Scientologist” for yourself.

Thank you for your excellent book and your thoughtful insights.

Martin Padfield:

Having just finished “Memoirs” I can say you are in for a treat. It gets better and better. I love the attention to detail on the various legal incidents; names, dates – it’s all there, and the way they are all put in the right context. Ditto the dialogue towards the end with Sarge is verbatim, so there can be no misunderstanding or misinterpretation of exactly what was said and how.

Although completely impractical and probably discriminatory, it would be great if all contributors to this blog had read the 3 books as a pre-req to posting. It sure would make for an easier blog experience! I simply haven’t got the time to wade through 500+ comments, most of which would be null or invalid as already answered in the books.

There are so many things spelled out that make recent history understandable. Just a couple of examples from dozens I could have chosen – the authorship and background to Disconnection reinstated. Similarly, regarding the infamous 1982 Mission Holders Conference: “In fact, LRH had advised or approved of virtually everything that was uttered by Miscavige and his management boys at that conference. And when they returned Miscavige sent a recording of the entire conference to Hubbard. Hubbard listened to the whole proceeding. He was so thrilled with their performance that he highly commended Miscavige and his managers and ordered that a transcript of the entire event be prepared and distributed widely amongst Scientologists. His wishes were complied with…” (Page 197)

Best of all, the VERY recent activity on this very posting and elsewhere is discussed in a way that promotes better understanding of what’s really going on and the source of it. Great stuff.

I’ve put up some more shelves; ready for the next one!

Phil Bruemmer:

I just finished reading “Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior”.
The book verified things I suspected were fact, set me straight on some “facts” which I had wrong and introduced me to some things I hadn’t expected at all.
I’m glad that I heeded the advice in chapter 15 of “What Is Wrong With Scientology” and have been studying diligently (more or less) the past few months. Things that would’ve shaken me up before didn’t.
It actually resolved some confusions and conflicts for me and restored some peace in my universe.
Considering what you experienced and how you handled yourself, I’d say you got the EP of Pro TRs on the Comm Course.

You are a hell of a writer to boot!

Dan Koon:

By the way, Marty, I just finished your book and really, really enjoyed it. You filled in a LOT of blanks for me about what went on during various periods. So a big thanks for taking the time to put it all down. Tony Ortega slammed it, which, having now read it, is about what I would expect from someone who refuses to experience any part of the subject subjectively but who depends on the experiences of those who do and did for his livelihood. I understand he is writing a book. I can tell right now it is going to be a piece of crap. The guy has been writing about Scn for 20 years and never opened Self Analysis. He should watch The Master and then do the window and wall process for as long as Freddie Quell.

Cooper Kessel:

I just finished your new book. Very well done in presenting your experiences telling your story. It is a story very worth telling.
I realized that I held a belief that Miscaviage had altered what LRH really intended and that that was the reason why things went off the rails. I really appreciate knowing that he was actually in his own mind trying to do what he thought best for LRH and Scn. And I am happy to discard that belief!

I especially enjoyed reading the epilogue. I think your book will contribute in no small way to help people with a new course of action. As Pai-chaing noted ‘….one that is different than before’.

I will raise my glass to a toast to that concept. I hope to meet you and Mosey one day. Meanwhile, thanks for carrying on with a different course which is a bit higher than before!

Scott Campbell:

I just finished reading your book last week and have been thinking about it ever since. I can certainly see how LRH’s “fight fire with fire” strategy became the default “culture” throughout scientology. It was interesting to hear of the non-FOIA data regarding the tactics of the various government agencies arrayed against the C of S and LRH.

I for one am glad that you had the strength of character to get out of that situation and ultimately do the astonishing amount of good that you’ve done in just a handful of years. Whatever you’re doing, keep it up if its what you want. You’re a good man and don’t ever let anyone tell you otherwise.

As for this other political bullshit. I’ll say what I used to tell friends of mine on the ship when I was trying to figure out what was wrong with the orgs and scientology at the time – “It makes me tired just thinking about it”.

I also think that anyone hell bent on creating any kind of authoritarian organization would be well served to heed this observation from St, Thomas Aquinas – “The highest manifestation of life consists in this: that a being governs its own actions. A thing which is always subject to the direction of another is somewhat of a dead thing.”

Joe Pendleton:

Marty, finished your book about 20 seconds ago.  Wow!  Brilliant concluding chapter/words and a book I’m sure that everyone who posts here has either read or will be reading soon.  I won’t give any of it away to those who have not read it yet, except to say that your continuing journey has involved not only your willingness to risk the disapproval and possible abandonment of your allies, but also no small amount of intellectual honesty and intellectual courage.  For an acknowledgement, here I will quote LRH – as was once said on R3R step 8 – “OK, Continue.”

338 responses to “Dangerous Thoughts?

  1. Yvonne Schick

    LOL! No “true believer” here. If anything, the most valuable lesson I’ve taken from my scn experience is “that’s it” on the true-believer business. If I ever want to move any higher on the spiritual evolution scale, I had damned well better take FULL personal responsibility for my path, my understandings, my philosophy, my position in the universe and my fellowship with man. No one, nobody, no system, no dogma, no religion, no philosophy, no group has a monopoly on wisdom or the secrets of life. I can use others to direct my attention. I can contemplate the insights of others (including LRH) and see how they match against my own experience. Beyond that it is up to me. None of the above hold my eternity; it is MINE alone.

    Loved the book. Just posted my review on Amazon. So appreciate that you took the time and attention to share your story with me.

    Finally – screw ’em if they can’t take a joke. I don’t want to get that serious about anything.

  2. martyrathbun09

    Thanks a heck of a lot Yvonne.

  3. Would love to hear why people would have a problem with your well written book, instead of fawning praise. You dont seem to take criticism well. Just my opinion.

  4. whispering campaigns…a bunch of noise I say. People who have nothing better to do in life. Believe me, up here in Prescott this week has been horrible,just horrible.We lost 19 of our finest most honorable men to literally walked into an incinerator! These men did not have a change of making it out alive. These men are Fathers, Sons, Brothers, Husbands,friends, neighbors,nephew, grandsons. They are heros.

    To those doing all the whispering come on up to Prescott, Az and help us out. Find something in lives to be thankful for and stop being so right about what it is your so right about…You don’t have all the answers, noone does!!!

  5. martyrathbun09

    Are you all out of harm’s way?

  6. Thanks for including my brief recommendation: I stand by it in spades.

    I honestly wonder why it is that some people want to stop other people from looking.

    Imagine the lack of trust and respect Person A feels toward Person B when A tells B to avoid some data because it might confuse their pretty little head! Or color their opinion of someone. Or “enturbulate” them.

    Let me say this, briefly, and I will quote the Old Man:

    “Two rules for happy living:

    1. Be able to experience anything.
    2. Cause only those things which others can experience easily.”

    The manual for number 2 is “How to Win Friends and Influence People” by Dale Carnegie. Truly a great book. And so totally foreign to the synthetic “Scientologist” valence.

    Number 1 is, to me, one of the purposes of Scientology – be able to get up the horsepower to experience ANYTHING. Including a book written by Mr. Mark Rathbun. Standing around with your hands over your ears shouting “I can’t hear you! I can’t hear you!” and encouraging others to do the same is chicken sh*t.

  7. martyrathbun09

    Really? I have posted all published criticism that I have seen. Have you read the book?


    Here’s an irony of ironies. In the film “Evolution of a Science”, in which I played the badest of bad psychiatrists, I pointed to a “Dianetics” book, after the football hero has cured his game leg with it, and raged, “Zat book isst dangerous!!!” So we have the kool-aide drinking sheeple pointing to an Alexandrian library full of books, and the now whispering kool-aide drinkers pointing to your book, saying the same thing. It’s a farce worthy of Moliere.

  9. Well, I would think that the whispering campaign to not read your book must mean that there is a helluva lot of good stuff in there. And they’re right! It’s OK to read what you want to read. Good grief.

    Many folks have already pretty much described what’s in there, so I won’t add to that. It will effect us all in different ways, depending on where we were on the org board, who we knew and our own experiences. It was EXTREMELY eye-opening for me. Man, if someone tells you not to read it run faster to get a hold of it and read it. It will be hard to put down–emotional, keeps you guessing, and some very surprising moments. I had to take a break from it a few times because it was exposing some things I had heard at staff PR briefings, and truly believed (what–the staff were being lied to–no way!) and my head was twisting around like Linda Blair trying to shake it all out.

    So thank you, Marty, for putting it all down for us to ready–your story and experiences. It was a very valuable and beneficial experience for me.

  10. A whispering campaign against a book ?

    Some guys must have fallen for the emotion of fear 😦

  11. martyrathbun09

    One of my favorite scenes of the whole series of films! Yes, irony. One of these days Norton, I’m going to have to air on You Tube the film you and I made. It is getting so ludicrous out here that perhaps its time has come.

  12. Marty, we are now for the time.The Duce fire started back up again but we had a plane come in this am and drop more fire retardant.Thanks for asking XO.
    Oh thanks for including my statements. My friends and family are reading the book and learning a lot!! This book is a must read and those who want to hold others down, hell don’t read it because you won’t get it!

  13. martyrathbun09

    Thanks Carol. We got a room ready for ya’ll if there is an evacuation.

  14. Marty, my hats off to you. I guess you ain’t nobody on this mud ball till you somebody’s bad day!

    LOL poor things, just give them time.

    As I said about a year ago, there will be the fundamentalist Scientologists, the reform Scientologists and then the dreaded mixed practice Scientologists.

    It is just what humans do. Different classrooms for different developmental stages. And when you include everyone as valid, you become the enemy of the fundamentalists. That is just what they do. Bless them and move on. But they won’t bless back. It’s not in the fundamentalist’s job description.
    Condemnation is in their job description.

    Thank them for the opportunity to practice tolerance. The highest form of tolerance practice is towards the intolerant. Their noisy whiney selves can be very liberating with the right balanced, centered and kind attitude.

    It’s about checking and neutralizing our inner reaction to retaliate. When there is no reaction they go poof!

  15. AWESOME!!!!!!!!xoxo

  16. I must lead a very sheltered life as I haven’t been privvy to any whispering campaigns, rumour mongering or anything. I have really no clue what’s going on with Indie factions except there seems to have been some upset. Big deal.

    But I will say this: Of all the books on Scientology, and frankly including some of LRH’s, this is the one that delivers the most. It isn’t just fact-filled narration or dialogue, it is a real page-turner with a lot of “Oh Yeah” moments. If you haven’t read it – do so.

  17. What I find ironic is that some people are so convinced that their worldview is so Right, with a capital ‘R’, and the Only route to success, and at the same time apparently consider it so fragile that all dissent and deviation from that worldview must be smothered. What’s even more ironic is that this approach (and much of their particular worldview) is shared by both extremes, and is aimed squarely at Marty, out here promoting the Great Middle Path.

  18. I now have confirmation of who was in charge of the Mission Holder purge, something I wondered about forever. It was a huge stab in my back along with the drastic price increases. I really think the ole boy flipped his lid in the 70’s and 80’s, maybe even part of the 60’s. I can understand his situation as I saw other managers flip under the pressure.

  19. Can you imagine! an ex Scientologist becoming like a Gandhi and Martin Luther King!! Simple…… Love Your Enemies.

    Maybe if that was the face of Scientology non of us would be here.

    Who’s going to be the first to become great!

    Greatness absorbs all manner of human hate and darkness. It is not easy, it is the hardest practice I have ever practiced. But in the end Love always prevails. Because hate and retaliation is easy. To love despite all provocations to do otherwise is true power.

    A power missing in this cult, and the missing ingredient that single handedly caused it’s demise.

    Lennon had it right……… John that is 🙂

  20. A campaign against your book is EXACTLY what was found in the “Church.” “Don’t read anything besides LRH! It’s dangerous! Don’t look!!!” It’s so ridiculous as to be laughable and insane that “Look, don’t listen” became “Listen, don’t look!” in practice.

  21. I recently caught wind of a whispering campaign wafting amongst independent Scientologists.
    WTF???!!! Grow up, whoever you are!
    (Still reading it here…)

  22. Damn straight, Carol!

  23. martyrathbun09

    I think it is just because you don’t lead a sheltered life that this business doesn’t reach you.

  24. Summerwind

    Amen Yvonne!! 🙂

  25. Letting go

    This is such a big world. There are so many ideas being shared. This is an age of information, of looking, communicating, letting each other be (gradually). Of a relative freedom. Or so I thought.

    Book burnings, anyone? Who is so threatened that they require protection by the Gestapo? I really wish I understood the root of this fear and seemingly terrified uncertainty. Does it really derive from the desire to do good, no matter the cost? Or is it perhaps a natural response to structures that are shifting and vanishing too fast to hold on to?

    Does knowing that stable data can be shaken make you terrified of shaking it? I could understand that, I feel like that myself, often. When I notice that’s how I feel, I go and face it head on. Read what scares the sh*t out of me 😉 Then make up my own mind. It might just be someone else’s viewpoint, reading it doesn’t mean I have to make it mine. But if the viewpoints I read help me sort out mine, and help me find peace, it sure is worth it. It so happens all Marty’s books have done that for me.

    I’d just like to say I think the future really is going to be OK.

  26. Fuck all book burners!!!

  27. Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior gave me a lot of food for thought. It helped the connect the dots and fill in the missing pieces in the jig saw puzzle of my mind.
    Very well written with astounding content that needs to be known.
    I found myself reflecting on new pieces of information and then putting together the missing piece over and over again.
    Example: The 1977 raid is covered. I was on Mission at the time in Los Angeles and was in the big lobby when FBI agents were towing away the boxes, so all those mental image pictures came back…
    48 Hours later Kathy O put me on a plane to Washington DC to audit Arte Maren who was in a Federal jail on a John Doe warrant.
    The Guardian’s Office had one prime worry. Would Arte Maren reveal LRH location ? I did not know than Maren even knew the location but apparently that’s what the GO thought…..
    Just the chapter on Guardian Office alone was worth the price of the book…I just ordered 5 more copies. All my previous copies…borrowed or gifted.
    Hats off to you Marty and thumbs up.

  28. Bruce Pratt

    Head bob.

    We don’t need whisperin’ where we’re headin’….

  29. I found the book to be:
    1. Well written,
    2. Frank.
    3. Daring.
    4. Credible.
    The book confirmed to me what I already suspected about LRH. What anybody with half a brain should suspect.

  30. jeb, I think Marty does a wonderful job of taking criticism and turning it to his/our advantage. See if you can look at it that way.

  31. Carol, I am so sorry for your community’s loss of brethren and heroes.


  32. cre8tivewmn

    I just finished your book and although I can’t honestly say I can add a lot wisdom to what has already been said about your wonderful book, I’ll say something anyway.;-)

    I found Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior a great read. Although I had read the general history of LRH and Scientology in other books, this book had a lot of info I had not read before and it was surprising, touching, shocking, dismaying and thought-provoking through the twists and turns of the story.

    It made me understand a lot more about how an intelligent person could get so deeply involved in Scientology, then Corporate Scientology. In this memoir you point out the traps, the rationalizations, and the cognitive dissonances as they occurred throughout your experiences within the church. It must have taken a lot to rebuild yourself after you left Scientology. Your insightful writing in the book and this blog shows that you did.

  33. Sapere Aude

    Having read the book I will state it was a journey. The detail, the writing, the essence of communicating what was going on behind the scenes were all there. If there is anybody that feels this book should not be read,

    I would have to ask what is there to worry about. If one’s certainty on the value of any of the tech is not sufficient to allow reading a story of a persons travel down that road then I would say WTF. There is nothing in it to shake the truth. The only item to be rattled is your own doubts and ignorance.

    I found the 3rd book valuable in answering many questions which few dare to even actually think upon. Sunlight does nothing but expose the shadows. It does not change the actuality hidden in whole, or in part, until the sunshine penetrates.

  34. For the love of God!!! it is hard to believe people would take this advice seriously. But then what? read in secret?
    But it seems that it is not about people finding out about the Church or LRH . it is about maybe ending up liking Marty because this book , in essence is about Marty and honesty and basic goodness.

  35. Yes, Michael, It’s sad. It seems they have forgotten them self’s but are tricked into thinking it’s ‘the others’ that have that problem.
    Maybe they really didn’t get any releases to look forward to again. Perhaps they are failed cases. I sure hope they each figure it out – that may be to much of a gradient, I hope they each realize that they don’t know and start searching for them selves.

  36. I find it mildly interesting (more so telling) at best what others quip about Marty. I mostly only notice the more obvious stuff as I run across it. I don’t go looking as I found a lot of it simply childish carping amongst keyboard commandos that somehow need an [obscure] identity online. They can have their dumb & dumber effects amongst themselves.

  37. I only just finished chapter 2. I had to take a break after the ‘shinning’ story.
    I was so light and floating I had to go enjoy the win. 🙂
    Good book!

  38. Reading Scientology Warrior I had the same experience of having a lot of dots connected that filled in the picture of what was going on during LRH’s last tumultuous years before he left his body. There were so many things that had been hidden. Some for good reason, some for no good reason. Deep down, a being KNOWS when things just aren’t right. I was concerned for Ron’s well-being but didn’t know how to find out what was going on or help. I’ll bet a lot of people were in that situation, too. As he was trying to put the finishing touches on his legacy, numerous vultures were already circling even as others were trying to protect him.
    The story didn’t end with the fairytale ending for mankind as it was supposed to. I greatly respect Marty’s courage in filling in the blanks and telling his Truth.
    The Truth will set us all free.
    And the story ain’t over yet. Far from it.

  39. What I want to know about the book Memoirs of a scientology warrior is, is there confidential OT material contained in it ?
    If there is I am not buying and reading it .

  40. People warning people not to read a book!?

    You should be able to read anything and make your own mind up, doing so cannot damage you. The very idea that reading something could damage you is a cult information control indoctrination designed to prevent you from exploring alternatives to the cult doctrine.

  41. Self/pan determinism is dangerous, indeed.

    “No one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them.”, said an afro-american rebel (I just found out a few minutes ago).

    From this point of view, all contradiction inside the SCN 3rd Dynamic makes sense to me.

  42. Seems the comments give it a good review Good

  43. Gern Gaschoen

    I haven’t bought your books, Marty, but I have read them. Since they’re on the subject of Scientology, I refuse to pay for the privilege of entering my head.

    I believe you when you say that you are attempting to resolve a situation, but I think that you’re not addressing the actual, true source of the dramatization going on with the Church, which is this: society, restimulated.

    Those who are using Black Scientology to ruin peoples’ lives are doing so because they truly believe they have to do it. It is the larger society from which they are borne which allows this to occur; every single tyrannical action of DM can be found in broader society. It is not “because of Scientology” that these dramatizations are occurring; it is because of Scientology that they are loud and dramatic and over the top. If you came from life as a thug on the streets, Scientology is going to make you better at that.

    So to address the problem with Scientology, address the society from which its leadership is operating. I truly do not think that the leadership of Scientology are anything more than members of the US Death Cult, hell bent on destroying any activity which might challenge the US Military Industrial complex’ hegemony over the ability to violate human rights, globally. (Wither CCHR? Gone. But it was once a mighty force against the very kinds of weapons being used on society to soften them up for tyrannical control, namely: government-sponsored drugging campaigns.)

    If you take your eyes off the golden goose that is “attacking Scientology” right now, and instead look at fixing the tyranny of your government, my prediction is that you’ll find the truth to be very enlightening. The problem with Scientology today is the US Government. It is also the problem with US society at large, who have allowed their masters to dominate them, without response, for decades on end. DM’s version of the RPF may be heinous, but its very much in alignment with the way things are done in the “Inner Privileged Estate” of the USA, which is of course the realm of the Military-Industrial complex.

    In reading your works, I often play the mind-game of substituting “Church of Scientology” with “Dept. of Homeland Security”. It works just as well, alas…

  44. martyrathbun09

    This inculcation of the belief that the problem is ‘over-there’ with some external agency is in a sentence the essence of what is wrong with Scientology. If it is as you say, your best chance of effectuating the change you see needing to be made is to hurry to get your A-E done and man the ramparts in the church of Scientology.

  45. tampabayjack

    Not much left to be said about, “Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior”. I do want to validate Marty for a 10+ book. I’m at the Battle of Portland chapter and will finish over this holiday. I keep wondering if Scientology and LRH would have made it this far without Marty’s weaving and bobbing through the legal jungle expressed in this must read book.

    Marty sets up a basketball metaphor in the beginning and as I look back at previous chapters I now understand how much his history in the church played out like a NBA final seven game.

    Marty is a shifty, talented powerful point guard and I might add, the MVP helping the church, LRH & “Pope on the box” stay out of jail.

    IMHO, “Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior” is a must read for anyone who is interested in facts about the sordid, criminal history of Scientology. VWD Marty.

    By the way, those who whisper are grown men and women still stuck in the 6th grade.

    Jack Airey

  46. martyrathbun09

    “Confidential OT material” is an oxymoron. It has not been confidential to the world at large for fifteen years. There is a description of that which has been freely available on the Internet all that time; and that L. Ron Hubbard attempted to have made broadly publicly known in the late seventies. If you want to attain to something that you insist on not knowing, break a leg – and do not read my book.

  47. Cooper Kessel

    “I honestly wonder why it is that some people want to stop other people from looking.”

    In a word I would offer up ‘FEAR’. The emotional tone level dictates behavior patterns which are antipathetic to change … IMHO!

  48. Cooper Kessel

    Nice post Brian,
    And the comment:
    “Who’s going to be the first to become great!”
    brought the thought that it is nice to know that there are a lot of horses in that race! So cheers to all of us jockeying for a position to move on up a bit closer to the finish line!

    This is not a spectator sport and anyone can join in.

  49. Note to the planet:
    Esotericism is dead. There are no more secret teachings. Everything is known on the internet.

    Note to Scientologists:
    There is no dangerous deadly knowledge. Knowledge can’t kill you. That was a lie.

  50. Common everyday people have been reading the OT materials for decades now.

    Where are the deaths, the pneumonia cases?

    It was said in no uncertain terms that death and sickness would be the outcome.

    This was a lie. A statement was said about an outcome.That outcome is nowhere to be found.

  51. Cooper Kessel

    “By the way, those who whisper are grown men and women still stuck in the 6th grade”

    They are not that high up. More like kindergarten behavior!

  52. Gern, disconnection and fair game is not a dramatization. It is standard tech.

    To blame a generalization like society is a sort of denial of specific causes that will bring clarity and freedom from ignorance.

    The root cause is wrong knowledge. Wrong action stems from wrong knowledge.

    Find the wrong knowledge and you will find the root cause of wrong action.

    Humans strap bombs to their bodies and blow up children because of what they have beem taught.

    There is plenty of teachings in Scientology that is at the root cause of it’s own destruction.

    It is hard for Scientologists to discover the root cause because Scientology only see enemies as the root cause of Scientology’s trouble.

    That is wrong knowledge. Inquire into the wrong knowledge. It is there, but it was drummed into our heads that any critical look at the subject was criminal, treasonous, hi crime etc.

    Ron said, “all I am trying to do is teach you to look.”

    Yes he did do that. But in Scientology where to look was controlled and regimented. And some areas to look into was cause for fair game and excommunication.

    Look for the wrong knowledge. It is not complicated. But first we must bring Ron down from the pedestal and look squarely at the root cause.


  53. Cooper, do you remember that scene in the movie Gandhi, after that military Major caused the death of hundreds of innocent protesters by machine gun and infield rifles and the smashing of skulls of the protest at the salt mines?

    Gandhi met with these men, shook their hands and said, ” I hope we don’t let this come between us as men.”

    This one moment was the victory of true power. And this action was inspired by Christ’s teaching. Gandhi said so himself. Martin Luther King fashioned the civil rights movement on the Gandhi model. King said so himself.

    All from the teaching of Christ. Ron could have had a different outcome if he would have been able to recognize the greatness of Christ’s philosophy. Not religious Christianity theology with it’s fundamentalist ways, but the religious philosophy.

    But, Ron considered himself the anti-Christ. He said so himself.

    Ron did not love his enemies. And the result of that philosophy is now obvious history.

  54. Gayle Smith aka TroubleShooter

    Hi Marty,
    As I told you yesterday I haven’t read your last book yet but am going to. I would like to say the following to go on record as having the viewpoint that I do as a RESULT of my trip with Ron so-to-speak through the books, Briefing Course lectures and tech vols together with what I’ve come to learn about LRH and Scientology in my career. My viewpoint has been a long standing one and not the result of me having chosen a side in the world outside of the cofs.

    It has always been my belief that Ron ended up going effect of that which he did so much confronting and codifying of. No way in my mind would a man of this level of production and exploration in to the minds of man live out the last many years of his life on the run, in hiding and dying a lonely death if he hadn’t himself either succumbed to that which he didn’t predict or that which he did predict and either decided to give up or didn’t have the solution to. He didn’t have all the answers or life would have gone differently for him. With that viewpoint for many, many years I never-the-less found a wonderful variety of tools that did achieve what was intended to help others.

    I had a dear man help clear up for me recently that a “KSW-nazi”, a term borne out of our evolution as a freedom-seeking people and referring to those who continue to walk a superior line to others who have widened their sphere of information in their quests to understand and embrace life with higher awareness and pursuits of wisdom”, “a person who uses Scientology to make others wrong and as a podium for judgement and criticism of others”. I’ve learned that it ISN’T applicable to those who have a standard they follow on applying LRH’s processes to move someone up the levels of the gradechart to Clear. I’m one of those latter and that is due to the decades of results with it’s application done in that way that I have that as my standard. It is NOT because I’ve locked step with anyone. In fact it’s based on my own scientific appreciation for the entire process and it’s components that have consistently yielded the results expected and desired. Saying one is an auditor who delivers Scientology tech who is lying – these guys are the bottom dwellers to me who have no place in my world except for an occassional hello is they ever actually look someone in the eye.

    I also know from my experience outside of the walls of the cofs that the subject of the OT levels is as varied as it’s original missing codification is. What an exercise it’s been to see the amount of effort and people involved in the compilation of the upper Bridge path for delivery purposes. It’s telling of both the absence of consistency in that path and the determination by wonderful people to get it sorted out as best they can because of how much they care that people have that path to follow if they chose to. It’s also been revealing at to how little the certainty or consistency of how it has been doen INSIDE the cofs since it’s delivery began.

    I have no idea yet what to expect in reading your book but as I told you I am going to read it. There are no criticisms of Ron that are going to change the admiration and respect I learned to have as a result of my studies of his work and results obtained with for decades of my life. I haven’t decided that any of your viewpoints were intended to do divide the world either.

    I want to publically thank you Marty for the beingness you granted me in our recent email exchange. I said things that I needed to say despite the “wrath” that could have rained down on me and even putting it that way was the result of others viewpoints not my own. Despite all of your traffic you engaged me with respect. Why should anyone who is honest and sincere expect anything less.

    It’s true for me that for years now the number of auditors who have pulled their meters back out exploded because you blazed a trail of safety to do so. Prior to your open challenges from this blog to the suppressive monopoly of the tech that the cofs lauded in the past to crush the rights to exercise this profession and religion [religion: a term used very, very, very loosely here and out of respect to those who view it as a religion] outside of that monopoly. Priorly, there was a dark cloud of fear that prevented most who audit NOW from pursuing their love of doing so and choking the options off to those who wanted to do their gradecharts to Clear and above. I think that some could benefit from being reminded of that.

    I don’t mourn or retaliate your “death as a Scn’ist”. I didn’t conclude that because you are no longer calling yourself a Scientologist that this means anything more than you’ve expanded your reach in to the greater sphere of data that in actual fact was something that the LRH I listened to for about a 1000 hours of lectures would have encouraged. I’ve heard you when you’ve said the tech has profound value and why. I haven’t chosen to search for the parts you question or to find people who don’t like you to become my people. My road is an open one that embraces the staggering results from the tech I DO know when applied as the procedure says and as gathered by LRH and to avail myself of the adventures of living and discovering and inspecting and growing that LRH did. The results [Scientology] of his life of such discovery was never intended to slam those doors shut on others.

    Sorry for the length of this Marty but some of it needed to be put here to make me happy. I’m happy now.

    Best to you and Mosey,

  55. Wendy Munro

    I thoroughly enjoyed the book Marty. I liked the mix of light and serious anecdotes, the legal battles and especially about Mary Sue. Your book has provided me with more insight into her personality and character than any other I have read. She was great – someone willing to confront anything, if ever I saw it.

    You have a style of writing, Marty, that keeps the reader engrossed without getting lost. That is quite a feat in a subject with so many angles and nuances to it that would not generally be understood by someone never in scn.

    LRH suffered a tragic end to his life (in the sense that he was compelled to live in seclusion) and my own theory is that his own responsibility in what happened to him, his own responsibility in what happened to Mary Sue and being surrounded by one or two people suppressive to him, caused him to lose his own “cause over life” and become ill. Proof positive in my estimation that even getting to the top of the bridge is still not “out”.

    Having also been around elderly people who are dying, some of the strange events at the end of his life, seemed to me to be, at least in part, a symptom of his ill health. I don’t respect him any less for his human frailties. We all have them. Not one of us does not. The way out is still to be achieved, and I would guess that if anyone has gotten out, we won’t see them hanging around here on this earth.

    God bless Sarge and Annie for being his true friends.

    I also wanted to say Marty, it is important to keep promises. It is no less important to keep promises to oneself. I smiled when I saw that you had wanted to be a writer from your pre-scientology days – so congrats for keeping that promise to yourself by doing exactly that. I made myself the same promise – and am yet to keep it.

    Thanks for the book, Marty. Already looking forward to the next one!

  56. Funny Cooper! But i would go one step further down
    and equate it to a small baby. We put my 2 year old
    grand daughter in a quiet corner and tell her matter
    of factly to inform us when she is done with any ill
    behaviour. So when she has done her “A – E”, which
    takes à few minutes usually, she comes out and she
    Is all happy again.
    It takes energy to squelch bad energy, so better to
    heed it as little attention as possible. Being bored
    about it can help both sides to move up.

  57. Happy 4th July all US guys! Let freedom ring!

  58. You just confirmed what I suspected about you. What anybody with half a brain would suspect
    Of course, I’ve read your books … oh, wait ….
    What the hell kind of a post is that you made? It’s hard to unravel the twisted logic.
    1) You omit what LRH accomplished (very probably because you don’t have a clue what that is)
    2) You level unspecified accusations that can never be refuted
    3) You imply anything any reader might be restimulated into thinking
    4) You imply that the book “exposes” LRH
    5) You implicate the author in your unspecified accusations.

    Those are the major things I see. Maybe somebody else can sort out the rest of it.

    Sheesh. “What I have always suspected about [ ______ (anyone)]. What anyone with half a brain should suspect.”
    Sorry, but your post stinks. YOU do something right. Then you won’t have to put up with everybody’s gross negligence and incompetence and ineptitude and dirty secrets and lies and maybe they’ll stop abusing you so awfully.

    I will have to admit, it takes a certain perverted talent on your part to throw stones at the same time you construct your glass house. At least the Philadelphia Enquirer is FUNNY.

  59. That was a great review.

  60. Yea yea yea lots of bullshit and drama. Every act has an opening ceremony. Duh! Does that bring down the final curtain? Never. You can harp on all that was not true, but you can not make nothing of all that was true. That is a fucking situation even for you.

  61. martyrathbun09

    Other than that, how was the book for you?

  62. martyrathbun09

    Wonderful post Gayle. You demonstrate the way up in my opinion. Death, nor anything else, is not something to be feared when one is guided in good measure by conscience and curiosity – in my opinion.

  63. martyrathbun09

    I have read him be dismissive and invalidative of Christ, but never to proclaim to be ‘anti-Christ.’

  64. Marty, did you notice how your books are pretty hot off the press? I don’t think that anyone in the world, not even television studios want a copy of “The David Miscavige Story”. I don’t know if he’s allowed to write a book about himself for profit or not. But I don’t think I would buy it though anyway! 🙂

  65. martyrathbun09

    Not really. It is a very limited world that is interested in a rational discussion on Scientology. As much as Scientologists and former Scientologists (who stay interested) would like the world to think otherwise, it is a very small universe of interest.

  66. I will find the reference for you. If it is not true then it is not true. But there is a reference.

  67. Ok, so that confidential briefing to students on the confidential levels was a hoax? I see that on the ESMB some said it was a hoax. If it was I apologize for posting a lie.
    Anyone verifiy that for me?

  68. I finished reading your book Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior and wanted to let you know how much I enjoyed the book and how much I got out of it.

    First of all, thanks for filling in the bits of behind the scenes information that was missing from my time line regarding the various law suits, legal battles and investigations that were a part of Scientology history. As a Sea Org member and Scientologist, we were supposed to ignore what was going on and concentrate on our jobs, while being fed a PR line about what was happening.

    It made it much clearer to me what was happening and justified many ideas and considerations I had at the time and was told that I was “disaffected”. Logical thoughts and questions about things going on were supposed to be suppressed or discounted because others knew best. Now seeing the full picture it made me realize again that when you see the “emperor wearing no clothes”, he actually is wearing no clothes!

    I also enjoyed your back story and history prior to Scientology. You never really fully know someone in the Sea Org or in Scientology sometimes because you are only concentrating on present time and what everyone is doing NOW. I only really knew you for what you were doing at the time when you were in Special Project, ASI and RTC. Your life history and back story were very interesting and enlightening and created even greater respect for you as a person.

    Your descriptions of what it is like to be around Miscavige and working for him were completely spot on from my recall. Thanks for sharing those with the world.

    Finally, you tackle the big “White Elephant” in the room that so many people after leaving corporate Scientology and the Sea Org take time to examine and try to sort out.

    That being L.Ron Hubbard – the man, the myth, the technology and policy.

    No doubt those who have experienced Scientology and Dianetics processing and had personal gains from the technology being applied develop a loyalty to LRH and the tech. It changes people’s lives. It changed mine for the better. There is no denying the gains both personal and in others that I have witnessed and know to be true. It’s the reason so many people are attached to Scientology and LRH after all these years.

    But after leaving and taking some time to decompress, you start reading and studying the information and facts that we were denied when we were on staff or active in Scientology. Books like yours help to fill in the truth.

    We were told lies no doubt about it. LRH was not perfect and did many despicable things that most clear thinking, logical people would consider crazy and would result in them staying away from LRH and Scientology.

    But the lower level technology that LRH put together and the gains that can be had from it far outweigh the negative facts in my opinion, therefore I cannot honestly dismiss LRH and all of his technology.

    My personal feelings about LRH was that overall he was a great man, trying to honestly help mankind but that he did, as you say, have a huge ego and he let that get in the way of dealing with things in an honest and logical way.

    I agree with your observations of LRH being a man of his time – Cold War, Science Fiction, World War II, and Nuclear Bombs. That coupled with his imagination as a prolific writer took him in a direction that he did not need to go in to explain what he was doing.

    Your interview with Sarge confirmed for me what I had thought for many years – LRH was not getting the true information and was in poor health both physically and mentally. Many of the negative things that were going on in the 1980s were the result of his orders and directions as you point out – not just in the legal arena, but also in the management of Scientology and the delivery of the technology.

    Instead of focusing on “the next big event” to announce the “next great thing that Scientologists can do and spend their money on”, if DM and Scientology instead had focused on the LRH plan of actually building up all organizations to the size of Old Saint Hill through actually training auditors and delivering lower level processing in quantity, we would be looking at a much different picture on this planet right now.

    As far as the OT Levels go, it was never my goal to gain Super Hero abilities straight out of Science Fiction and Comic books. I just wanted to be rid of my problems and hang ups and be able to live a happy life in freedom. I think that is what most people on this planet want for themselves and others.

    As you point out, Scientology was devoid of the concept of “unconditional love” and “forgiveness” was just given lip service. It did not actually exist in fact as seen by the use of heavy ethics and the release of private information to try and keep people quiet.

    My personal goal in the coming years is to get through the remaining Academy levels and deliver lower level Scientology and Dianetics to my family and friends and hopefully to others free of charge until my time is done.

    This is not to criticize others, but my opinion is that helping people with their problems and sorting out their lives should be free. The reward for the auditor is the personal satisfaction of having helped someone change their lives which is worth more than any amount of money. It is an example of unconditional love in my opinion.

    Again, thanks for writing you book and sharing it with the rest of us!

  69. It is not the good stuff that needs fixing Oracle. The truths that help people in Scientology I hope survive this turmoil.

    There is a concept that occured to me a while back. It is called “Non Culpability By Comparison.” In other words, comparing what is right to something that is wrong does not make the wrong right.

    If you go to the hospital to check out chest pains, the doctor doesn’t say,” stop being so negative, the rest of your body is perfect.”

    The right thing to do is take up the lung problem as itself. Seeing the bad in something does not make that good also bad by comparison.

    I hope you understand the spirit of my criticism. We are all here on this blog not because Scientology has been so smooth and groovy.

    Looking into the negative aspects are not easy when it has been considered a crime to do so.

  70. martyrathbun09

    Thanks for sharing those thoughts Mark. I am talking about yours; not what you mention about the book.

  71. martyrathbun09

    The alleged OT VIII “HCOB” that calls Jesus a pedophile? Yes.

  72. martyrathbun09

    The alleged OT VIII “HCOB” that calls Jesus a pedophile? Yes, a hoax.


    Oh, do it, do it! Can you imagine the waves? – a regular tsunami of apoplexy from many quarters. Damn the torpedos, Norton is game.

    Happy 4th you’uns. Love, Michael

  74. martyrathbun09

    Ok. Happy Fourth to ya’ll too!

  75. No, it was not a hoax. That HCOB was on the Class VIII course I did back in ’88.

    The second part of that HCOB was the tech for OTVIII.

  76. An early edition of “08, the Book of Scales”, had in the Grade Chart section of the book what was being run on the OT levels levels at the time, including the material run on OTIII which hasn’t changed. The material wasn’t confidential at the time, I guess.

    The book I’m referring to is prior to ’72, not sure of the date of the publication.

  77. Imagine, suggesting to someone to NOT read a book! It’s about as effective as telling someone ‘not to think of an elephant!’.

    Epic fail at thought stopping.

    I got the book, and the ‘Physics of Tao’ as well. Looking forward to getting into both this weekend.

  78. Thanks, it is treacherous navigating these internet waters

  79. martyrathbun09

    Great. I think you’ll like the latter, which for the record is, The Tao of Physics.

  80. martyrathbun09

    Bob, can you email about this? I have heard from a number of OT VIIIs and Class VIIIs that it was hoax, which aligns with my own research while in.

  81. LOL – thanks for bailing me out, sorry for the tirade. I read the first, especially liked the sections on Grades O-IV, found the rest well written and informative, but have been re-reading some LRH books with the surprising result of feeling like I’m ‘reading them for the first time’. Love ya’ man, but I got my priorities in reading! I will get to #2 & 3. – Carcha.

  82. martyrathbun09

    Thanks. I’ve heard similar things on re-reading LRH after WIWWS and having a deeper understanding. I do look forward to hearing your thoughts on the latest book. No hurry. Stick with LRH if it is broadening horizons.

  83. And this IMHO is what makes these former scios who are so fundamental in their thinking so lock-in.

    They loved being at the top (in their mind) of the fastest growing religion …

    And within the small circle of scientologist vs “the rest of the world” they (we in my day) felt important. A big fish.

    Only to discover out in the real world … Other than former members or existing members, no one cares what post you had.

    In fact, they don’t know what you are talking about.

    So unless you can make a life for yourself outside completely without Scientology status – you are a nobody.

    Most people will do just about anything to not feel like a nobody.

    Some start whisper campaigns …

    Others? I’m sure we’ll find out sooner or later 🙂

  84. Would certainly like to get that one cleared up. Actually Marty, after reading about Farsec from your book, this info on anti-christ is not far fertched as far as weirdness is concerned.

    Bob, you actually read this?

  85. I did the first version of OTVIII which the Internet claimed had this Christ reference – I can tell you it definitely was NOT part of the OTVIII that I did and I rereading the materials several times returning to the Freewinds for various crams, fix ups etc.

    LRS was dismissive but not anti-Christ as far as everything I’ve studied and heard (LRH materials)

  86. Sure can. Anything specific you want me to send you?

  87. Thanks Marty. It’s going to be a good weekend, rain or not!

  88. I too enjoyed the book as it put the chink back between the logs. I never realized to the extent what you and the other staff had to endure to help others. When it was too difficult to do your job or it became a total hell of course not even a well off theatan could do a good job. When the ship is sinking there is nothing bad about jumping ship for survival. I have a new perspective of you and I empathize for you and Mosey. Happy 4th to ya’ ARC Bill Dupree

  89. Tom Gallagher

    Marty, I’ve loved all three of your books. but for me the third is the best. I literally couldn’t put it down, reading it cover to cover in one day. I think I’ll re-read the tao te ching next with pauses to contemplate. I’m enjoying my summer reading program.

    Also, speaking of dangerous thoughts (and books) I just finished reading The Sociopath Next Door this morning. In a word- Wow! What eye-opening and vital information. I think it should be required reading for early high schoolers at the least.

    Then again, I’d imagine the self-appointed book police have this on their do not read list. After all, it was written by one of those whole track SP’s since the author is a psychologist.

    “Ron said so!”, they whisper.

  90. martyrathbun09

    I’d like a copy of the bulletin in question.

  91. “It was said in no uncertain terms that death and sickness would be the outcome.” according to Margery Wakefield in her book The Road To Xenu, but I’m sure having trouble finding that in any of the Ron Hubbard OT III Materials I have seen online.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  92. The OT8 narrative about the anti-Christ is what I did on the Freewinds in
    July, 1988. I am #254 OT8 completion. It is real.
    George M. White

  93. I think it is very important to cast aside unhealthy practices and destructive habits. One must, to survive. I’m just not one the throw the baby out with the bathwater . Auditing can be used to help to help people. That should be the first premise. Can it also be used to harm people? Yes it can. Am I scared of “Scientology” and it’s capabilities? Not at all. I don’t think 80% of the people that get involved with it can think with it. The 20% that can certainly aren’t on lines at the Company’s many warehouses. You have omitted time in some of your declarations. This is 2013 and it is easy to protest about what anybody said in 1950. What was true in 1950 may not be true today. In 2075 there will not be a place in this world for Corp Scientology as it is served up today.

  94. Windhorse,
    The anti-Christ OT8 that I did on the Freewinds was on July 17, 1988.
    I met miscavige on the Freewinds just before he canned it.
    I remember because I met him on the main deck for a supper
    buffet. My two FSM’s did it before me and very candidly we discussed
    the anti-Christ, the synthetic Karma, and the spontaneous combustion of anyone who could not get it all right. Hugh Urban agrees with me as
    he has also researched it at Ohio State. The religious department there has
    known about at for about five years. It is common knowledge in academic

    Much Metta,
    George M. White

  95. WH;

    There have been many incarnations of the Class VIII course. The Class VIII course I did was the “Original Class VIII Course Project” in ’88, which was to bring back the original Class VIII Course as taught by LRH in ’68, hence the course I did was called, “The Original Class VIII Course”. It was at AOLA.

    There have been extensive alterations of the Class VIII course taught by LRH. I have personal first hand knowledge of two of them. In the mid ’80s, ASHO DAY altered it’s Class VIII course to eliminate all references to the OT levels, which was ridiculous as the purpose of the Class VIII auditor was to be the review auditor for the OT levels. Who ever did that course missed all HCOBs and tapes that referenced to the OT data, specifically OTIII, which as you know was an extensive part of the course.

    As I said, the Original Class VIII Course Project was to bring back the Class VIII course as LRH had initially created it, but, the mice started to get to that one too. While I was on the course, I and others noticed that tape transcripts were slowly being altered. I’m not sure when I first noticed it, perhaps the third time through the checksheet; the tapes and transcripts no longer matched., substitutions were being made, and no one knew who was doing it, not even Mellissa, the Class VIII sup. We were able to dig up the true transcripts which were still available and used those, and marked the altered ones so no one would pick it up with the tape and get confused.

    Per Chris Black, who did the Class VIII course just after me in ’89, the tapes were being cut up and destroyed, and replaced with the sanitized ones. He participated in their being cut up, which he was uncomfortable doing.

    I dug into this, and apparently there is an issue which makes it ‘ok’ to cut out of any LRH material anything that shows him in a bad light. In the Original Class VIII Course, LRH was not particularly kind or polite; he would curse, and I mean curse, and yell and cancel certs. In one instance he was calling an auditor a ‘BITCH’ cancelled all her certs on the spot because she was confused between two auditing actions.

    One of the original Class VIII students who was on the course with LRH in ’68, I think his name was Pem, a name you may remember, was also on our course in 88. It was really cool to have him because there were moments on the tapes where the students would laugh or applaud, but nothing on the transcripts mentioned what LRH was doing that brought about the student reactions, and Pem told us what was happening. I may have the wrong person …

    Anyway, the point of my wall of text is that the Class VIII Course has been altered. On the one that I did, that HCOB was on it, and I read it three times, and got checked out on it three times. That it was not on the Class VIII course you did comes as no surprise, as it was an issue that definitely was not supposed to be BPI.

    Also, in the Lerma case, RTC listed that exact HCOB as being owned by RTC in the copyright infringing case along with vast numbers of other HCOBs, until someone realized the PR blunder of owning it, and dropped it from future lists. You can check A Lerma’s website to get that data.

    That HCOB WAS, WAS, WAS on my Class VIII course.

    Forrest Crane started the Class VIII course as I was winding down mine, so I assume he was on the same check sheet. Perhaps he can comment on if that HCOB was on it.


  96. Yes I did, and as I said, I read it three times, and was checked out on it three times.

    The HCOB has two parts; the first part is the part no one likes, where LRH talks about Christ, talks about how he, LRH will return and what it is we have to do to allow him to do so, and that we will not know who he is, but he did tell us what his profession will be, and a lot more about spontaneous combustion, the ‘invasion’ that is coming, and so forth. His opening lines in that HCOB are a real grabber, no one EVER put it down once they picked it up. We read it a lot, it was unbelievable.

    The second part is the OTVIII theory and such as LRH originally meant it to be. The second part was NOT on my Class VIII course.


  97. Ok Marty, I’ll dig it up and send it.

  98. George, did you do the OT VIII that was part of that HCOB?


  99. martyrathbun09

    It would be very helpful to hear from Forrest.

  100. martyrathbun09


  101. Out of curiosity, what did LRH say his next lifetime profession would be?

  102. “It is hard for Scientologists to discover the root cause because Scientology only see enemies as the root cause of Scientology’s trouble.”

    That is a profound truth and very insightful.

  103. Hi WH;

    I just realized that you didn’t mention having done the Class VIII course and I went on a rant about it. Sorry about that, my mu … somewhere.


  104. Mr Rathbun,
    We don’t know each other.
    This comment is off-topic
    I read on Mike’s blog you suggested him and Christie to watch a specific movie they liked and shared.

    I would like to strongly suggest you and Mosey to wathc a movie that
    will deeply touch your heart and mind. It’s base on a true story and the quest for freedom.

    This movie has changed me – rarely a movie had shaken me so much to create a 180 change of my viewpoints on what I value in life and what i let go.

    If you watched it, I would appreciate you comment it on a post. To my heart, it’s a real genuine gem of life and art of living that should be shared.

    Title: Into the wild -2007



  105. Marty, even the people that were in the church that tried out their O/W’s on me (I say tried out because in the end it was like as if I was just sitting there as long as I was watching them mock up their cases in front of me and got bored and left. Not bad for a comm course student eh?) – if that’s what they wanted to do – , even the people that were in the church doing this competed with each other for the right to do so. That is indeed quite a race to run and win I must say! 🙂 I am not a competitive person in the sense that I do not want to attract lunatics to me – like being in the Church of Scientology automatically equivocates to while one is a member AND after one leaves! 🙂 That’s fine with me, because I am not a person that turns and runs the other way just because there is a elephant stampede up ahead coming my way. 🙂 Although I admit that would probably be the right thing to do in that situation! 🙂 However….:) I feel the same way. The “brightest” and I use that term figuratively, brightest person I have spoken with to date (yourself not included) MIGHT be Tony Ortega because of his affinity with New York. And just to mention, I don’t think that Paulette Cooper is strange lady but the last few times I have spoken to her, her communication is so PTS Type III that I can’t help but wonder if she ever really accomplished what she set out to! 🙂 I am happy for you. I am sure you are going to be writing more books as time goes on. I won’t be. 🙂 My case on such matters as-ised a long time ago unlike yourself who speaks not out of one’s own case but very objectively on the case manifestations at times of others! 🙂 As always a pleasure to let you know.

  106. Just Me, he said he would be a politician

  107. George, I’d like to ask you a question. When you first read that “anti-Christ” bulletin, what did you think?

  108. I will look for it Mike. It was always known to all of us in the early 70s that OT 3 could kill you or give you neumonia.

    That was just what we all knew. I can’t believe you guys don’t know this. Either I am completely crazy and don’t know my own experience as a Scientologist and my own past or you experienced a different Scientology than me.

    That was part of the understood dogma. He even said it about Excalibur.

    He has a thing with his knowledge being dangerous and powerful. I will find the reference Mike.

    What works in Scientology should be saved, preserved for future people.

    What is not true, or perceived to be not true, is still worthy of debate. Asking reasonable questions is not criminal or anti- Scientology.

    The truth is never altered by a positive, reasoned query. The truth is verified by reasoned inquiry. Or a positive inquiry can persuade a position to change and thus change ones perception on what is true.

    Clearity is the friend of truth. I am simply looking to be clear. You can consider me anything you like, trying to bring down Scientology etc. But that is inaccurate. I have sent people, one person, an OT 7 to an Indy Auditor. That Auditor said my friend the pc is doing great and I was really happy for him.

    So my motive, to some, is not understood. That is ok, you will understand or you won’t. That is none of my buisness.

  109. Critical reviews are not the end of LRH, Dianetics, Scientology nor the end of life. Disinformation and propaganda have no end. Are we going the way of the critic? Are we choosing sides? Is one side better than another, really? Is that the new game? Good Lord.

  110. “and that L. Ron Hubbard attempted to have made broadly publicly”
    OK thanks for that, any links or references about that that you could point to , because I want to check that out before I buy your book .

  111. Brian: But first we must bring Ron down from the pedestal

    Spyros: It seems to me he did that himself long ago. And I experienced that some who put him on a pedestal did so, just because they claimed to represent him, his thoughts, and his intentions, so essentially they put themselves on the pedestal. I have seen this system repeating itself a few times in the past. You represent a leader, a popular person or movement or a God or something, and then you are God yourself (see God’s prophets, or others who represent political ideologies, or others who represent ‘science’…)

  112. If a SCNist is not self determined, all it will take is to claim that you are and that you used to know Ron better than others, and blah, and the sheep will follow (although LRH did prohibit that).

  113. *”all it will take is to claim that you are…” enter-status-title-here

  114. If I wanted to be your boss, your tyrrant, if I wanted you to accept my viewpoint as the truth, I would tell you that it what LRH wanted too. I would tell you that he was the tyrrant and he told me to be your tyrrant too. I would tell you I have superior knowledge of the tech that you cannot have. Have you ever seen this happen? As far as I’m concerned, this is how some SCNists are on the road to ‘total freedom’ by giving up their self/pan determinism. And this explains how SCN, as a group, can be so contradictory within itself.

  115. WH and others,

    I first came across this letter a while ago when I was first studying various propaganda and discussion surrounding Scn and LRH. Upon revisiting it, and after having done quite a bit of study since that time, I must say that it seems even weirder and more incongruous to me now than it was even before.

    I know that LRH made some strong statements about Christianity and other religions. And I am aware that there were a lot of changes, even a dramatic shift, between the 1950s and the 1960s. But if this letter is to be taken seriously, one would have to think he had done a complete about face in terms of his views.

    For example, in the Phoenix Lectures (something that I keep coming back to):

    “The use of Christianity was to produce a certain civilized state and many people would blacken Christianity by saying it reduced people down to a very low level indeed. This is not true. It took an entire world of slaves and it made free men out of them. This in itself was quite a gain.”


    “Now, remember that Christianity in its basic wisdoms is still available to us in the New Testament, and that this, no matter how it has come through the line, is quickly and swiftly traceable back to the Veda.”

    This is completely opposed to what is said in the letter:

    “You have only to look at the history [Christ’s] teachings inspired to see where it all inevitably leads. It is historic fact and yet man still clings to the ideal, so deep and insidious is the biologic implanting.”

    And in contrast to the letter’s pooh-pooing of practically all earlier traditions, it also doesn’t seem to recognise that he’s on record tracing everything back – Buddhism included – to the Vedas, as being the earliest known major body of wisdom that we have.

    Again in Phoenix Lectures:

    “The Veda, should you care to look it over, is best read in a literal translation from the Sanskrit. And there are four major divisions of the Veda, all of them quite worth while. A great deal of our material in Scientology is discovered right back there.”

    “And we find Scientology’s earliest certainly known ancestor in the Veda.”

    So, something’s not adding up here. The letter also states that Gautama posited his own return as Maitreya. But historically this has never been considered to be the case as far as I know.

    Does anyone have any quotes directly from LRH that suggest he ever believed this?

    What I do know is that LRH stated, over and over, that there have been many buddhas, and there will be many more. That’s a much more open-ended view to have taken, and quite early on, too.

    There are many elements in that letter that seem to contradict very strongly with other recorded comments, and in general, the whole attitude is just way off base:

    “I had an inkling, but only that, of the insidiousness of this material as far back as 1945 […] and still the string continued to unwind with the ball at the end of it just out of sight.”

    That implies he was still searching for the root cause, when in fact he claimed to have already found it by that time.

    If the letter had originated from someone within the church and actually made it into a curriculum, that’s some seriously nasty business. I feel for anybody who had to endure it.

  116. Well Marty, that ends that controversy. The net has all manner of discussion pros and con. I think we just put it to rest. He did say these things. I withdraw my apology for saying I posted a lie.

    Ron considered himself the anti Christ. Miscavige took that off the Class VIII course.

    Thank you Bob and George. I appreciate your coming forward with the truth.

    I myself heard him declare himself to be the Prince of Darkness. I think it was on the Whole Track tapes. He was talking about the Prince of Darkness(I forgot in which context) then he said,” who do you think I am?”
    Implying that he was it. He did not clarify, or go any farther, he did not say he was kidding. He just left you with the statement.

  117. Letting Go: “I’d just like to say I think the future really is going to be OK.”

    Letting Go, the ‘future’ has come and gone and I’m happy to report that not a soul was lost. Every single one made it through and now worse for the wear. However, for whatever reason, some keep returning to the theater to watch the movie, from start to finish…again and again and again. All the while pretending that they don’t know what happens next. 🙂

  118. Not “now worse for the wear”…but, ‘no’ worse for the wear.

  119. BG,
    Yes, I did the OT8 that contained the anti-christ bulletin, July 17th, 1988
    on the Freewinds. If you look at my picture, it is on the day I finished
    OT8. I really enjoyed it as a level. The invasion and anti-christ data did
    not freak me out. I WAS JESUIT TRAINED!. For those who do not
    know about Jesuits, they are some of the toughest scholars on
    the planet who will accept, study, and test any truth.

    George M. White

  120. Don’t hold back, Terril 😉

  121. So, sure, there is “The Man” – I have come face to face with the understanding that this world is rigged in a way where The Few pretty much own The Many. Income inequality has broadened in the last 20 years beyond belief – “workers” are more productive than ever, but their pay has not increased proportionately, so the fruits go to their masters. For example. Another example is that “Education” – learning, enrichment by studying the greatest works of Man, broadening of viewpoint and the understanding of the Human Condition – has been reduced to “Training” – “We need to train the highly skilled workers of tomorrow!” Colleges are now Vocational Tech institutes for The Man. And The Man even gets to saddle the insanely high college costs onto their new worker bees, ensuring that they stay nice and obedient so they can pay down their “obligations.” The average college grad has $26,600 in student loan debt, with the rate set at 6.4%. That is more than all the money I ever spent on Scientology services and materials, by the way.

    This is not the “US Government.” It is planet Earth. And it has been going on for centuries in different forms. So, if fixing this is a prerequisite to fixing Scientology – we are out of luck.

  122. Marty,
    I met miscavige on the Freewinds after I read the anti-christ information.
    He looked to me like he was in a daze of confusion at the time.
    He cancelled OT8 a few months later and ordered everyone to return to Flag for re-tread. Obviously, I flatly refused. How could anyone re-tread after reading that Bulletin? People from Flag called, I received letters from
    staff and OT8 completions. I held my ground. How can you re-tread
    something you understand better than miscavige?

    Much Metta,
    George M. White

  123. martyrathbun09

    Do you have any other names of people that were in that first go around with you that are now out?

  124. martyrathbun09

    For you perhaps it is put to rest. I am investigating. Does not even read like Ron. In either event, it is sort of academic given the impressions shared in my book that are based upon material that is not in controversy as to provenance.

  125. “I smiled when I saw that you had wanted to be a writer from your pre-scientology days …”

    I did too! Marty’s fulfillment of his dream makes me so happy for him and for all of us. What a wonderful gift! 🙂


  126. I loved that book, and the movie! Jon Krakauer is such a fine writer and is so careful to research his subjects thoroughly, writing fairly and honestly. I could not put the book down.

    Thanks for reminding me of it.


  127. Thanks, Brian.

  128. R’s treatment of Mary Sue was a failure of his to practice his own Simon Bolivar policy. She was an extremely loyal person to him and he threw her under the bus. Unforgivable!

  129. I did not know that Ron was trying to get it made into a film called Revolt in the stars . Thanks for posting that link .
    I am going to buy your book next week on kindle .


  130. I remember Les Davis who was a good friend, but we lost touch over the years. A teacher named Bonnie wrote me long letters. My two
    FSM’s passed on from this life about 20 years ago.
    I remember Roxanne Friend but she also passed.
    I have pictures which I can scan to see if I remember more names.
    I think Laura Wolfe? was the C/S.
    It was a very nice experience. LRH is hard to pin down
    on the subject of Christianity because he is kind to it at one
    time and then rips it. My FSM and I spent a lot of time looking
    at it. The key to understanding it on the Freewinds in 1988
    boiled down to extensive word clearing especially in regard to
    “Fundamentals of Thought” The anti-christ data is actually minor
    in the context of the bigger picture.

  131. Great post Gayle. You’re going to love Marty’s book.

    Perfection is impossible. Ron flew too close to the sun, and had his faults, but I will always love the man. I have had the privilege of knowing some very great people in my life – members of my family, friends, famous people like Thomas Kinkade. None of them were perfect, and most of them had flaws that would prevent them from having a show on the Food Network (ala Paula Deen), such as outright racism and antisemitism. Some battled drug addiction or alcoholism. Yet, they were/are great people, full of love and compassion and brilliance, and they enriched my life. If I had to hold them up to a standard of perfection, I would have to denounce all of them as bastards. Because perfection is impossible: we are all bastards.

    I found this to be consistent with O/W theory, by the way. “Man is basically Good” and “We are all bastards.” O/W applied correctly (in my estimation) can move us more to ourselves and away from our “bastard” side.

    I have become pan-determined about Scientology tech. There is a lot valuable there, and there is a lot that is valuable outside Scientology that A. extends and enhances it, or B. is completely different from it but is profound. I am getting to the point where I do not compare all new data to find its Scn analog. I just look at it and integrate it as it is, for the most part. I find that looking a new ideas as-is without trying to compare it to Scn or anything else allows me to truly understand what it is – sounds like a “duh” moment, but people love to sort and classify as they learn/read – but the step before classification is to see something as it is without classifying it.

    This, to me, is integration, and I agree along with Marty that it is the only way Ron’s workable tech will survive.


  132. Marty,

    I’m not yet through reading your book (I’m chewing it thoroughly). But I have to say at this point (more than halfway through) that it is blowing my mind.

    For one thing, I didn’t expect you would write so transparently and in such great detail about the GO’s activities, about Hubbard’s own creation of the mess he found himself in, and the long-reaching impacts of his actions on Corporate Scientology’s toxic culture, financial extortion, and its auditing and other technologies.

    This memoir of your young life and your Corporate Scientology misadventures is one of the most riveting memoirs I’ve read in a long time. I am particularly impressed with your ability to distill years of convoluted legal wrangling into straightforward prose without losing the litigation plot.

    For Scientologists and Scientology watchers who haven’t read Marty’s book yet, I strongly urge you to do so. No matter what you knew or thought you knew, it will surprise you. It may also make you reconsider what you thought about him.

    Marty, thanks so much for writing this book. It is a significant contribution to the record about Scientology. It is also one hell of a good read!

  133. Scott,
    When I was at Holy Cross College in 1964 taking my first theology course,
    the Jesuit priest said in the opening lecture “Does God exist”. I fell off my chair almost. Never had I heard a priest say that. I spent four years in Philosophy, Theology, Epistemology and Ethics etc. When I read the anti-christ information from LRH in 1988, I was calm as could be. My Jesuit training told me to investigate and look. My background in the study of
    religion put me in a power position. We spent hours in philosophy class
    discussing the anti-christ. I knew that the answer to what LRH was talking
    about was not in the Bible because I had read that book as a Jesuit looking
    for deeper truth. Therefore, I turned to “Fundamentals of Thought” to get
    at the core of Scientology belief just as I had done concerning the existence of God. It was easy to see through the scientology narratives as just narratives.
    George M. White

  134. Thanks, Monte 🙂 That last was meant as some comfort to those who might be afraid to read Marty’s book (or other people’s, for that matter). Always in motion is the future. Why deny it? (I don’t mean you.)

  135. This discussion is missing a crucial point: the Gnostic religious cosmology.

    According to Gnosticism: Each one of us is a spark of the Divinity who “lost” our Divinity state. “God” and the Beings helping “God” are the real enslavers. They are enslaving us with the Laws of “God” which we are to obey or get very harsh punishment. In this context, the Anti-Christ, the Prince of Darkness, etc., are the Real Liberators. Somebody like LRH who was able to discover and go through some heavy implants is a Real Liberator.

  136. Dear obnosis,back in the 80 s I used to work in Melbourne org,I worked in div 6 ,I would take dianetic books to book stores,and I would see other books,that were critical of Scientology I would carefully put the dianetic books on the display shelf with out looking,I wish I did ,I think I can handle the truth,even if its lies that too I can accept,although it hurts,I’ll see it threw.

  137. As an aside, re that HCOB, I don’t think it is relevant that, to some, the style of writing doesn’t sound like LRH. If you read the HCOB, it is clear that the ‘author’ is differentiating itself from the identity known as ‘LRH’, so it is not ‘LRH’ who is writing it, but the Being itself. I think that the ‘LRH’ identity is being shed so that this Being can for the first time state clearly and precisely exactly what is at stake without our understanding being filtered through our opinion of the identity known as ‘LRH’.

    I think this interpretation is supported by the content of that HCOB.

    My opinion, of course.


  138. Actually Brian, there is one hilarious anecdote.

    Back in the days of ARS, when the OT III material, and all the rest, was being posted and soaked up and mirrored, passed around to anyone who was interested, there was a lot of discussion about the ‘pneumonia’ resulting from reading OT III. It was denigrated as being baloney. What was hilarious, is that Bob Minton, right after he read the material, got pneumonia.

  139. I wouldn’t be so quick to decide that it was written by LRH.

    What is this idea about a small group of “unimaginitive” individuals, who, working *outside* the MEST universe, conceived of an implant within the GE-line millions of years ago, all for the purpose of keeping thetans progressively more trapped as they evolve?

    And then, the whole scenario becomes the basis for biblical prophecy (and Christ’s coming)?

    And now, gosh darn it, Ron has to go and fix it all.

    This apparent scenario is really striking new data, because not only does it add a whole new narrative into the mix, it suggests that it must be somehow audited out.

    Even with my limited understanding, it’s clear that this turns Theta-MEST theory upside-down. If you accept the letter as being true, you’d likely have to accept that LRH’s idea of Theta-MEST had changed completely, making all the earlier teachings (not to mention Scientology itself) redundant.

    Also, the GE stuff is strange, as LRH basically said the subject is unimportant and that there’s not much point in auditing it. But all of a sudden, it becomes so vital and urgent that he doesn’t even have time to explain in detail?

    Whoever wrote that letter clearly had little more than a working knowledge of Scientologese, at best.

  140. Hi George,

    You have quite the history of religious education!

    Semi-on-topic: I was actually thinking the other day, in relation to the Scientology cross, there seems to be little knowledge about its origin other than LRH having found an old sand casting, which was then redesigned into the “Sunburst”…

    I wonder if the original symbol had a Jesuit meaning perhaps?

    By the way, you are stronger than I am. Personally, I would have been quite upset after having read that letter, just from the point of view that it doesn’t jibe with the fundamentals at all. I do think there’s a difference between true weird stuff and false weird stuff. 🙂

  141. martyrathbun09

    I think our analysis is a sound one.

  142. martyrathbun09

    Thanks a lot JM. That means to me that the effort was worth it.

  143. martyrathbun09

    Thanks George.

  144. I’m with you on the “Sociopath Next Door.” Awesome book. I mean, one in twenty-four people. Thank God not all of them are murdurous.

    What is interesting to me is that in Scientology, an SP (Sociopath analog) can be cured, potentially, buy ID’ing the incident they are stuck in and yanking them to PT, among other things. The idea is that they are potentially able to NOT be SPs. Not so, in Psychology. Sociopaths just “are.” In a way, that is nore freeing to me – because to me, part of being reasonable with a Sociopath is that down under it all, they are basically good human beings, and that tugs at your empathy – which they feed on. But, if the psych model is true… no, they are not good underneath it all, they are that way to the core. My take-away from this is:

    1. I still believe that deep down they are still basically good, but…
    2. Treat them as if they are not. Treat them as the toxic waste they are. Not meanly, not violently. The answer is not to load them on a barge and blow up the barge, but rather to recognize them, and “operate over them.” Or out-create them. Be pleasant but disregard them, do not trust them, and do not play their game.

    As the church proves, labeling people sociopaths is dangerous business – it is EASY to get it wrong. So, I would never go down that path except in my personal dealings with them and to potentially warn good friends and family off of them should the situation arise.

    But wow – a damn good book.

  145. My mom is Marty. She did OT VIII in 88

  146. Marty,

    I read and copied that OTVIII bulletin from internet in 1998. In 2010 I asked a Class VIII, OTVIII about it and he said that it was utter bullshit and not LRH and was not the version he did.

    However I do believe George and to me it does have the ring of LRH’s voice to it. This is a subject of interest to me and one that I am looking into right now.

  147. Thanks for the response above, George!

  148. Marty – If you really want people to read your books, publish them as PDF files and make them free downloads.

  149. Mike, Perhaps Ron’s Journal 67 20 Sept 1967. About 1/2 way thru when he is speaking of his OT III research “As a matter of fact, it is so occluded that if anyone tried to penetrate it as I’m sure many have, they died. The material involved in this sector is so vicious that it is carefully arranged to kill anyone if he discovers the exact truth of it.”

  150. Well Bob, considering all the time and money invested into a reality, I am surprised many more did not come down with it as the placebo effect would have been in order.

    Bob, I appreciate your training in questioning. Didn’t the Jesuits honor Aristotle and Greek approach to investigation? And weren’t the Jesuits the first to create universities. One in Spain and in France?

    In my opinion it is this line of reasoning and unconditional questioning that I hope truly becomes a comfortable means of dissecting this maze of contradictions that is the Scientology diaspora.

    When information gets to outlandish regarding the written word of Ron, I sense a tendency, of some, to go into a supportive justification to distance their present understanding of Ron from revealed oddities that would challenge and already tenuous idea of who he is.

    I still go back to the thought: what is the effect on a mind to always have the idea of criticism for Ron or Scientology cemented in association with YOUR evil intentions, fear of excommunication, having overts, MUs, betrayal on the third and fourth dynamic ?

    It would seem to me to make it hard to be critical, especially after decades of agreement and actual punishment of others for daring to have an idea of dissent.

  151. martyrathbun09

    I didn’t try to stop the anonymous folks who have done just that in the past. But, I would really like to recompense my wife for carrying me during the several months I devoted to it. At least – best case scenario – in some small measure.

  152. rainbodhi;

    you wrote;

    “Even with my limited understanding, it’s clear that this turns Theta-MEST theory upside-down. If you accept the letter as being true, you’d likely have to accept that LRH’s idea of Theta-MEST had changed completely, making all the earlier teachings (not to mention Scientology itself) redundant.

    Also, the GE stuff is strange, as LRH basically said the subject is unimportant and that there’s not much point in auditing it. But all of a sudden, it becomes so vital and urgent that he doesn’t even have time to explain in detail?”

    I disagree that it has any effect on the validity of the Theta/Mest Theory. The ‘conspiracy’ shall we say, started what, around 80,000,000 years ago, relatively late on the chain. The Theta/Mest Theory has been around since Incident One, at least. Further, the Theta/Mest Theory probably plays a part in earlier universes as well.

    Also, per this HCOB, the GE aspect is still irrelevant in the sense the GE line is not necessarily handled, but the Theta Being being PTS and the effect of the implant is what is to be handled.

    This HCOB is in no way out of line with previous tech.

    If anyone here knows how to access the Library of Congress, a search for this issue may turn up who owns it. If it is on the list of copyrighted writings, that ends it. If it is not on the list, then it could be that someone scratched it off in case someone looked for it.


  153. martyrathbun09

    I don’t hear the ring that you do. But, I think it is sort of academic given what is indisputably taught at Class VIII.

  154. martyrathbun09

    Thanks V. She is still incommunicado though, isn’t she?

  155. gretchen dewire

    come on annonymous,let Marty make a little money on his awsaome book. Think of all the money we spent on scientology and here a book that will help us unravel all the good from the bs.To me that is almost priceless.I dont remember how much I payed for my copy but it was cheap at half the price. We all need to make a living.

  156. Excuse me, please, Mr. Almost-Certainly-Not a member of Anonymous – any writer deserves fair compensation for their work product. Writing is a job, just like any other. *I* paid. The Kindle edition is not that expensive.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  157. Tom Gallagher


    Just this afternoon, actually about two hours ago, I lent this book to a friend whose son is, at 22 years old, an alcoholic, a heroin addict, a high risk taker, seeks pity constantly, manipulates others as if a gamer and to top it all off and I’ll quote, “I like dick”. He’s also charming and handsome beyond belief.

    I sense this book is going to help sort out a bunch of crap life served on my friend’s plate.

    Several other friends have also asked to read it too since I brought the subject of the book up and they read the front and back covers.

    No, none are scientologists, they’re just neighborhood friends.

    The Sociopath Next Door should and could be considered a public service with its publication. I wish the author, Martha Stout, all the best.

    Frankly, as a person who has done the Hubbard version of this subject, The PTS-SP Course twice, I have found Stout’s version more workable and concise. That and it only cost a few bucks on Amazon.

    This book also, most importantly, takes on the subjects of Love and the Conscience.

    This crap spewed that ALL Psychiatrist and ALL Psychologists are whole track whatever’s just doesn’t hold water.

    That’s my 2 cents, especially to the book burners who may be reading.

  158. Tom Gallagher

    I’ve been happy to throw a little bit of something your way. Sure beats Flags Class 12 rates! And I get better results!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  159. Let me second, third, and fourth what JM and others have written in review of Marty’s “Memoirs”.

    I have read the book through once and am now taking and reviewing it piece by piece, there is just so much information in it, that is new to me.

    I think it is a “must-read” for anyone who is interested in the history of Scientology as it gives a perspective not available anywhere else that I know of.

    Marty is a very good writer, by which I mean he writes the unvarnished and unembellished truth as he perceives it, no more and no less. He does not attempt to “spin” anything he writes about in this book.

    Thus his writing is vividly real and alive, even when describing the more complex and confusing events, some involving his own “thought stopping”. That’s always a difficult thing to do, but he manages it without apology.

    Lots there, all of it worth reading. It will enlighten you, I think, just by its simplicity and directness.

  160. Anonymous – what do you do for a living?

  161. “The material involved in this sector ….” not the OT Course Section III course materials. Assuming for a moment that there actually is some horrible area of the OT case (“The Wall of Fire”) that needs running on OT III, this implies that the OT III course materials (which have leaked all over the world by now) do not contain “the exact truth of it”, as that would make the course materials lethal, now wouldn’t it ?

    According to that very same Ron’s Journal, the OT III Course is actually a method he developed for running out “The Wall of Fire” without making anyone sick or killing them. Per the above that method must prevent the pre-OT for discovering “the exact truth of it” before he can handle it.

    Surely I’m not the only person to figure this out?

    When Mark “Marty” Rathbun publicly stated he thought the Xenu story was just an allegory, maybe he was on the right track, after all ?

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  162. Agreed Spyros, I have found myself in that category numerous times. Each time I did it I was giving my power away to a person or teaching. I never thought I was doing it at the time. Who does? Who wants to admit to such things?

    In one sense it is natural for the neophyte to objectify, idealize and trust in the preceptor. An over enthusiasm and adherence to a belief that this path is the beez and eez.

    A true teacher doesn’t want adulation from students. A true teacher is humble and sees himself as a servant not as a super ego that can squash dissent in the ranks.

    A true teacher has manifested within himself all qualities and wisdom he teaches. He doesn’t say one thing and do another. He doesn’t teach things he doesn’t know. That would be a con.

    A true teacher is not motivated by money or power. He is only interested in his students happiness and has the same love for all mankind as he has for his students because he perceives the unified field as his own Self teeming with the unified field of other Selves.

    A true teacher is filled with immense love for mankind and would never intentionally hurt any living thing because he sees all as his own self. He loves his neighbor as himself.

    A true teacher celebrates in the spiritual liberation and intellectual sovereignty of his student. He doesn’t make a clone of himself, he makes a well rounded balanced an fully expressed individual alive with special unique qualities.

    I am done with giving my power away. If a teacher doesn’t lead me to my own inner light, it is not my path anymore.

    I hardly quote my teacher. Speaking as myself from my own authentic realization of truth is the best praise I can offer my teacher. By example only

  163. Boston Blackie

    I enjoyed the drama about the organized crime guys trying to shake down the church. I was wondering if Larry Byrnes ever get the 25 grand back that he fronted?

  164. martyrathbun09


  165. martyrathbun09

    Thanks. It seems that you may be one of perhaps few who will understand and appreciate my next book that proposes ways and means to graduate beyond Scientology by, among other things, locating when and where one forfeited his conscience to Scientology.

  166. Hi Bob,

    Actually, I never suggested that it invalidates the need for the Theta-MEST model. What I am saying is that the events described in the letter break it completely.

    Incidentally, the letter also invalidates Hubbard’s own presentation of ARC=U.

  167. Marty, I await your next book with baited breath. I have gobbled up the first three. Charge more for the next one!

  168. Old Secretary

    Hey Valkov. I saw you shoveling shit against that incoming tide. You know where. Valiant effort. Some of those frequent posters who monopolize that blog sure are carrying a lot of make wrong and know best for folks who believe they are enlightened. Wow. I am all set with that. I wont say where, but you know.

  169. My mistake on confusing you Bob with George ( path of the buddha).

  170. Tom Gallagher

    Her work is a spiritual one. So is yours. But you’re both practical.

    I really look forward to the insights you’ll impart in your next book.

  171. Tom Gallagher

    If you over-esteem great men,
    people become powerless.
    If you overvalue possessions,
    people begin to steal.

    The Master leads
    by emptying peoples minds
    and filling their cores,
    by weakening their ambition
    and toughening their resolve.
    He helps people lose everything
    they know, everything they desire,
    and creates confusion
    in those who think that they know.

    Practice not-doing,
    and everything will fall into place.
    -Tao Te Ching 3rd verse

    Before i sign off for the night, I’d humbly request the book burner(s) consider the above passage. Great men don’t want to be over-esteemed. But if you find one who does, by evidence, keep things in perspective.

    Good Night.

  172. That’s a great point and a great story. Great idea to lend out the book – there is no need to explain. The book just tells it like it is. I agree that Stout’s version is more workable. Scientology falls flat on this when you can’t handle, yet can’t disconnect – like with your friend’s son.

    And, I noticed a long time ago that there are truly good people who are psychologists and psychiatrists. Blanket condemnation is stupid.

  173. one of those who see

    Excuse me. Marty wrote a book. I am reading it now. This is his work. Since I desire to read it, I am very willing to pay for it. Haven’t you bought books during your life? I hope he make a nice sum from the book and continues to profit for many years to come. If I have a friend who, because of difficult circumstances really can’t afford the book, then I will lend it to them. But it is best if people purchase it. My not humble opinion.

  174. The Jesuits weren’t the first to create universities. Universities such as Paris, Bologna, Montpellier, Pavia, and Oxford existed centuries before the Society of Jesus. Bologna and Paris date back to the 12th Century.

  175. Pumpkin don’t bother.
    It is amazing how we all see what we want to see instead of what is really there. People like that don’t have to read. They are above reading. They don’t have to observe, they are above the need of mortal observation. They don’t have to see how well Marty takes criticism because the already think they know how he does.

    The difference between those who get up the bridge and and those who don’t I think, is that we all see what we want to see, but those who make it up the bridge stop wanting to see things in a certain way and hence reality has no other choice but to filling in the vacuum.

  176. Mike,

    Allegory and mythology has been used since time immemorial to communicate the intangible. That LRH would use a fantastic sci-fi based narrative to obfuscate this particular method of “piercing the veil” is completely understandable in this light.

    Dangerous Thoughts indeed.

  177. MichaeI, paid about 25 cents for the photo copies of OT 3, hand written by Ron in 82. I did not finish my grades, I did not use a meter I used my own knowing and ran OT 3 for about 3 weeks many hours a day. Sometimes I’d go on my back porch and run and run and run. Did not do OT 1 or 2. Never did any set ups, nada, zip.

    I knew many others that did the same. No sickness, no pneumonia.

    I am still here. Happy, healthy.

    Early eighties a lot of us left because we knew creeps were at the helm. Martin Samuels had a briefing after the evil Mission destruction and told us what was happening.

    It was bullshit that OT 3 causes harm. If my knowing it is bullshit causes a reaction in you I would suggest it is not me you are reacting to.

  178. I take it back, I did use a meter only sometimes. But mostly did not.

  179. Finally just finished your book, and it’s definitely your best, and I don’t see how you can top this, your 3rd book.

    The Chapter of you interviewing Sarge about the Creston Ranch and LRH is just so valuable, thanks for posting that whole interview.

    Great Epilogue, great editing.

    A few minor history issues I have, like the fact that 1978 PTS Outline issue included “disconnect” which was reinstated as of 1973 by LRH, and it factually needs a little more research into LRH’s 1978 era PTS tech, all of which preceeded te 1983 “PTS and Disconnection” issue, that I think for a few more reasons than you listed, for sure in 1982 onwards, SP disconnection was stamped in harder than in prior years, as a necessity, and you gave most of the reasons. (My only beef is the 1978 PTS issues LRH came out with, and the fact that the 1973 PTS handling steps reinstated the “disconnect” option, even before the 1983 issue, and that 1983 issue I think LRH only emphasized that also, due to the sloppy presentation or answer or reason submitted to LRH that prompted LRH to come back with the emphatic 1983 answer(s) to include disconnection, but it wasn’t “lost” or “cancelled”, as disconnection was absolutely never “lost” since it was clearcut reinstated in 1973 in the 10 August 73 HCOB.

    But that’s a minor point.

    I don’t see you outdoing this 3rd book, and it’s definitely a great summary of your views, and chock full of excellent history that is no where in any other book or web site, at present! I recommend it as a must read to new religion academics.studying Scientology.

  180. Marty, your last few articles have really been instrumental
    in losing up some serious nuts and bolts that have held me
    chained to thinking as a scientologist instead of my own
    I remember when a staff member at the mag “the Auditor”
    in 1968 (we were located at the Manor, St Hill) and i was
    told to disconnect from à newly declared SP. I refused as I
    did not know him. I was told if I did not they would throw me
    out of Scientology. I said “fine” and went down the stairs,
    stopped midstairs looked out the window over the beautiful
    Manor landscape for a long time. Should I really negate all
    my incredible wins and just walk away for this? I slowly turned
    around and with heavy steps walked back up and wrote the
    disconnection letter. That was the first time for me.

  181. Gern Gaschoen

    The problem is not “over there”, the problem is Scientology is in the midst of a society that is rapidly tearing itself apart (50 years or so) as one of the most fierce, vicious, war-mongering nations on the planet. Remove Scientology from that scene and you will see Scientology flourish and prosper. Continue to ignore the fact that the US Military-Industrial complex is in control of Scientology, and you will never address the problem.

    And no, an A-E is not the most effective means of effectuating change. Investigating the crimes of the US Government and its military-industrial masters is the way out of this situation.

    I don’t expect you to have the confront for this issue – you’d rather play with the easier target, it is very clear. But once you handle the Church of Scientology, you’re still going to find yourself in the midst of a repressive regime which has murdered millions, disregards its own laws, and continues to infiltrate and destroy any group which may arise to challenge its authority. Broaden your scope, Marty. Someone like you tackling the Military-Industrial complex of the US would be a very good asset in the fight for peace in the world.

  182. Gern Gaschoen

    Grasshopper – the cause for these dramatizations is discoverable with Scientology. Fix the US with Scientology.

  183. Gern Gaschoen

    Disconnection and Fair Game are both social conditions which have their time and place. That they have been mis-applied and caused atrocious grief for many is due to the intentions of the Black Scientologist doing the deed.

    I have seen, many times over now, both policies applied successfully to bring a person back into control over their own lives, without external influence. If this is, nevertheless, abhorrent to you then I would say you have a ways to go before life is going to get better. Disconnection, when necessary, absolutely works as a standard technique to remove a person from the dangerous environment which is restimulating them. Fair Game, if its truly the last straw, *works*.

  184. Wendy Munro

    Brian .. + 100

  185. That was really good Brian! Thanks much for sharing. Of the points you stated regarding the attributes of a true teacher, the one I am pondering, the one I hung up on, is this one:

    “A true teacher has manifested within himself all qualities and wisdom he teaches. He doesn’t say one thing and do another. He doesn’t teach things he doesn’t know. That would be a con.”

    I’m applying Byron Katie’s four questions to it.

    Four Questions:

    Is it true?

    Can you absolutely know that its true?

    How you react when you believe that thought? (notice this)

    Who or what would you be without the thought?

    Btw, Brian, do you have a list of attributes for the true student? If so, I would really appreciate seeing them.

  186. martyrathbun09

    Two big steps in the forfeiture of conscience process.

  187. Mark, you wrote: “I am getting to the point where I do not compare all new data to find its Scn analog. I just look at it and integrate it as it is, for the most part. I find that looking a new ideas as-is without trying to compare it to Scn or anything else allows me to truly understand what it is – sounds like a “duh” moment, but people love to sort and classify as they learn/read – but the step before classification is to see something as it is without classifying it.”

    Excellent point Mark! Enormously useful. Thank you.

  188. martyrathbun09

    One of the first things that got me back into the Scientology game in 08/09 was the recognition that Scientology intelligently applied could help – but in fact was perpetuating and contributing the horrors you envision. To the extent one blames the environment for its failure, you are waving a white flag while loudly proclaiming to yourself ‘victory’. It is the perfect cognitive storm implanted into the mind of the radicalized Scientologist.

  189. martyrathbun09

    Your vivid description kind of made me feel that one. Thanks for sharing.

  190. If one reads the Classics, you would find unbelievable knowledge and universities existed before even the first century. The mathematic and geometric development extant at that time would blow you away.

  191. Letting Go, that was kind of you to want to comfort those who might be afraid to read Marty’s book. What you told them was perfect. “I think the future really is going to be OK.” Reassuring them about the future was spot on. For the ‘future’ is where all fear resides. However, because of their guilt, which resides in the present, over their transgressions, which reside in the past…they truly believe there is something to fear that is waiting for them in the future. If they could only come to recognize that they never really did anything wrong in the first place, the guilt and fear would quickly melt away.

  192. Gern, if what you posit is true, why did Sn not flourish in other countries.. This forum is not the place for your anti-American tirade.

  193. Thanks Pumpkin

  194. Lars, you may appreciate this: I have been lucky to have had some excellent mentors. One was a boss who, on the day he hired me for a tough, politically sensitive “change agency” position, said: “Do your job like you’re not afraid to lose your job.” I am sure someone had once given him that advice, because that’s the way he rolled. I loved him like a second father.

  195. Scott, the allegory theory has been created by Scientologists, not Ron. The allegory theory is an attempt to give justification to an OT level. Ron never said this was an allegory. If being true to LRH’s auditing therapy is all important to Scientologists and ex Scientologists then OT 3 being an allegory is false data.

    OT 3 may be an allegory, I have called it a sort of dream therapy. But it is very important to not change history and put in Ron’s mind or create a reality from Ron that he did not have.

    And a reality that would have had you expelled, or worse, by Ron himself.

    It may make, for some, it easier to tolerate talking about OT 3 to the outside world, but that is not the reality of OT 3 that Ron lived, and promoted.

    It would be a historical crime if future generations thought that Ron purposely created an allegory. That is purely speculation based on an attempt to lessen the perception of OT 3 being outlandish and worse.

  196. I’ve seen a few really dumb comments on this blog over the years – but that one takes the biscuit.

  197. I’m talking about the university system. Read Rodney Stark, The Rise of Christianity. He is not a Christian. He is a Socialogist. There were schools before but not the university system

  198. Gern Gaschoen

    Oh, p’shaw! I’m not blaming the environment, but spotting the true cause of the problem: the Church was infiltrated by foreign agents determined to cause its downfall, and have done so. This is the standard operating basis against any group which may arise to challenge the hegemony of the US Military-Industrial complex, and it can easily be demonstrated, statistically – not just with the CoS, but with many, many other socially important groups which have arisen over the years.

    Failing to take responsibility for this fact is a typically American thing to do, but it doesn’t make it any less effective a means of handling to spot the military mindset, and as-is it.

  199. Gern Gaschoen

    Scientology *is* flourishing in other nations, far from the influence of the American military-usurpation aparatus. If its anti-American to call America out on its crimes, then so be it – but I’m not flowing power to any US companies, or individuals, for as long as the US Government is continually allowed to commits its real, true crimes against humanity – including the destruction of Scientology! I know, fortunately, I’m not alone in this fact – there is an uprising of anti-American sentiment in the world, and the reason is that America is overtly and covertly committing crimes, daily, against the human race.

  200. One minor criticism of all 3 of your books, is no indexes.

    Especially when you cover so many excellent history points in your 3rd book.

    I wish someone would do some in depth indexes to your books, then send you the indexes, and you somehow include the indexes in future revisions of your books.

  201. Gern Gaschoen

    How so? If someone is suppressing your survival, simply handle: or disconnect. Doesn’t require any forfeiture, simply make the decision: and do it. Fair Game? Conscience? I’ve already established that you have long since given up any chance of understanding the policy, but it is unconscionable to just whither and die when faced with a serious attack, in lieu of actually fighting back!

    Just ask the Afghani’s if they think fair game doesn’t work in the human sphere. Just ask the Viet-Cong if they thought they should just bow down to US Imperialism. Just ask the freedom fighters in Syria if they don’t think Fair Game has its time – and place. What are your true intentions, if you are trying to obfuscate the very reality that, sometimes, you need to either Handle, Disconnect .. or when its really bad, make the game fair and fight back!

  202. Bob,
    Yes I did the OT8 that was part of the anti-christ HBOB.
    Steps as follows from the C/S. – July 1988


  203. This reply is to rainbodhi since the thread is over-extended.

    Thanks for the support. I was one of the few who did not
    balk at the letter. I just took it in stride.
    Saying he was going to be the anti-christ was unusual to me
    at the time, but I was expecting something unusual anyway.
    I did not get the idea that the Bulletin was inconsistent with
    his other work. One of the thoughts I did have was that there was
    too much information packed into a little letter. It seemed to me
    that he was rushed in some way.

    George M. White

  204. roberttroutman

    I don’t understand how the son’s sexuality has anything to do with his implied sociopathic behavior. Do you see this as a contributing factor, a consequence, or what? Can you elaborate?

  205. Speaking of off-topic: My uncle is a Jesuit, did some graduate work at Holy Cross in Worcester, and was ordained in 1964. He is still apparently on their advisory board. Is that the campus you attended?


  206. I can’t wait for this book! When will it be finished?

    (tapping foot impatiently…)

    Is it done yet? 😉


  207. Jean-François Genest

    In my life, I have read several other “memoirs” → from French = memory.
    I look forward to this one!
    • As soon as it came out, I read my signed-by-the-author copy of Scientology – Abuse at the Top by Amy Scobee. I loved it!. She wrote an amazing book!. I once worked under her, so I know the author, and lived through/witnessed several events she described. I am SO glad that she is living “happily ever after” her Scientology/Sea Org experience.

    • Was there “a whispering campaign” that I missed after the release of Amy’s “memoir”?? She surely ruffled some ©hurch feathers with her revelations. I also read parts of Jeff Hawkins’ Counterfeit Dreams from his website/blog. [http://counterfeitdreams.blogspot.ca/] Boy, wasn’t that an eye opener filled with behind-the-scenes revelations. (It also brought back some 60’s memories for me). Kudos Jeff!

    • It appears that Marty’s third book is actually de-feathering some birds totally bald out there in the supposedly, allegedly “Independent” (yet-still-tied-to-cult) Scientology field. I only have one word → Bravo !!

  208. I appreciate your apparent intentions that Marty’s book be widely read, but authoring a book is a tremendously time-consuming activity in which few people are capable of successfully engaging. Marty has a gift and should be compensated for his efforts. It really isn’t much to pay.

  209. Jean-François Genest

    He/she probably s•t•o•l•e books; music, movies off the net, …
    Just an anonymous, anodyne assumption (perception).

  210. martyrathbun09

    Do I look whithered and dead?

  211. martyrathbun09

    What are you doing about that aside from leading threads on this blog far astray in a fashion that clearly doesn’t influence the thinking of its participants.

  212. martyrathbun09

    Gern, remind me, did you read my latest book?

  213. Bye to Gern. I have no more time for your off-topic rants.

  214. Brian, you seem to miss my point: Ron Hubbard never said that exposure to the OT III Course Materials (HCOBs) themselves was potentially lethal. Those members of the “critic” community looking to invalidate OT III on the basis of nobody getting pneumonia or dying from examine those materials got it way wrong.

    Now, as for your contention above that you “ran OT 3” and nothing bad happened so it’s not potentially harmful:

    According to Hubbard, the procedure is purposefully designed to eliminate whatever risk might be involved with discovering “the exact truth of it”, so either

    (a) you successfully followed the procedure and avoided that risk and so nothing bad happened


    (b) because (1) you weren’t set up for that level by your own admission and (2) you attempted to run a procedure that requires an e-meter without one, so whatever it was you actually ran failed to bite at all and so did not activate the potentially lethal implant Hubbard spoke of in the materials


    (c) there is no potentially lethal implant involved in the OT III case.

    A trained Class VIII (I’m not one) might come up with some other alternatives. In any case, Brian, whatever it was you did was clearly not a Standard Tech OT III and so your remarks do not address about whatever that might or might not do, sir.


    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  215. Jean-François Genest

    ~ I can testify to that. After reading WIWWS + TSR, I re-read Fundamentals of Thoughts, A New Slant On Life, Self-Analysis, Scientology 8-80 and parts of SOS. I too encountered an easier & broader understanding of the information in those LRH books. It’s like case-gain magic 🙂 I can only imagine the depth of my understanding after reading Memoirs … Θ

  216. Globetrotter

    I just bought it on Amazon – looking forward to reading it.

    I have my own little research project going on about the evolution of “100% standard tech” a’la Miscavige. Does anyone have a copy of the Inspector General Network Bulletin “Arbitraries removed” and would be kind enough to share…? I’m putting together some data on the timeline of the never ending versions of “100% standard of the week” and so far I couldn’t find a copy of this gem.

  217. Oracle OT 3 did not exist in the 50s

  218. There are people out there, even in the Independents that are afraid of even seeing OT3. This is a present time issue. And my point of view is specific to one thing: OT 3 data can harm your. Saying knowledge can harm you is suppressive or good for business. Mystery sandwich. I thank God I got hold of it when I did. It freed me, because I had bought into it.

  219. martyrathbun09

    It might has well have. Ever hear the Milestone One lectures, early 1952?

  220. martyrathbun09

    Thanks Jean-Francois.

  221. nancy,
    Yes that is the place – Worcester, Massachusetts

  222. rainbodhi,
    I don’t know about the cross. I never looked into the history of it.

  223. Brian, you may be entirely right about the innocuousness of “OT III”, but I must take exception to the way you express your opinion of it.

    I really don’t see how you or anyone else can generalize from your own individual experience, to all of humanity and state with such absolute dogmatic certainty that premature exposure to it can be harmful to no-one?

    That is in fact one of the accusations made by some against LRH – that he generalized his own case to all of humanity. In fact there are people who feel he was mistaken that everyone on Earth had been subject to that particular implant/incident. Perhaps you are one who wasn’t?

    I have no technical opinion on it, but I have had medical problems over he past 3 years, including more than one incident of pneumonia. How do I know these were not in fact precipitated by my premature exposure to OT materials?

    I don’t necessarily think they were, but the fact is, I don’t know for sure either way.

    But you seem dogmatically sure.

  224. Tom Gallagher

    roberttroutman, You asked “I don’t understand how the son’s sexuality has anything to do with his implied sociopathic behavior.”

    Neither do I. It seems to me that your question is non-sequitur and/or ‘loaded’. I’d suggest you re-read this thread.

    Moreover, why don’t you read the book. It’s only a couple of bucks on Amazon. Jeesh!

  225. “Gern, disconnection and fair game is not a dramatization. It is standard tech.”

    Brian, so is it your position that a dramatization could not have been institutionalized as a piece of “standard tech”?

    I don’t see the logic there.

  226. Tom Gallagher

    Chuck, Marty might be ‘covered up’. Could you volunteer to do some in depth indexes to his books?

  227. A memoir is a record of events written by a person having intimate knowledge of them and based on personal observation and how one remembers it.

    An autobiography is a historical account.

    One usually does not find an index in a memoir.

    Tony Ortega’s review of the memoir, was a review of an autobiography, which a memoir is not.

    There is a WIDE difference between memoir and autobiography but many people think of them as the same, when they are not at all.

  228. Thank you,
    I see – there is a fixed idea there already. Sad. OK ~ Marty sure takes things well these days, very good on the ‘let it go’ and Granting of Beingness. It’s a reflection of his gains I think. Nice.

  229. There are people everywhere afraid of knowing. Knowing carries it’s own burdens and responsibilities. There is a price to pay for knowing. There is a price to pay for seeing. It’s a pay to play world. Nothing is “gifted” from a “higher authority”.

    Some people don’t want to know, and don’t want to look, as they will inherit some debt.

    I have to being willing to spend spend spend (time, effort, words, ideas, thoughts, energy and emotions) for seeing and knowing.

    This is not limited to a Scientology environment. What you see true for people exploring Scientology, you will find true for people everywhere. A lot of outpoints that are attributed to “Scientology” have nothing to do with Scientology at all or Scientologists. It has to do with mankind everywhere.

  230. An elementary example of this would be, hearing a crash in your kitchen in the middle of the night. Once you get out of bed to go see what it is, you are going to inherit some new task. It might be an intruder, maybe the cat just knocked over a plant and it will be a clean up job. Most people dread either way, knowing what chore they will inherit by going to find out.

  231. +1

    Valkov is truly valiant and proficient at what he does over there.

  232. Maybe it was a manuscript to a new novel by LRH and Miscavige in his brilliance (A=A=A) issued it as a Class VIII / OT VIII bulletin.
    The bulletin (as far the one I found online is the one you read while on OT VIII) leaves more questions as it provides answers.

    I wonder about its source.
    (As I do about the source of many other Bulletins from the 80’s.)

    What is stupid about the content itself, the author at one point says
    …the general message of love, understanding and other typical Marcab PR…
    (as if love and understanding was never used by LRH – e.g. “What is Greatness”) and at another point the author says
    “…With the exception of the original Buddhism, virtually all religions of any consequence on this planet, monotheistic and pantheistic alike, have been instruments to speed the progress of this “evolution of consciousness” and bring about the eventual enslavement of mankind…
    As if one of the main liberating Buddhists concepts wouldn’t be love (i.e. Metta) .

    BTW the muslim world is still awaiting the coming of the anti-christ (called dajjal).

    I really wonder who is responsible for this PR flub.
    And if DM is so “on-source” why would he withdraw this bulletin (and then, some years later, we can read it on the internet?).

    OK, it’s late in Europe…

  233. I’ve known some of those people for several years and have been posting there that long myself.

    They are no different than most people i see around here, ESMB, other sites, trying to decompress from a sometimes severe involvement with the cult, and make sense of it all. They are rather intellectual about it.

    I try not to fall into the trap of thinking I am so much better than them. Wouldn’t that be that “pride” you mentioned in your post over there? In fact many of them are smarter and more advanced than I am.

    One of the things I like about that venue is I can post whatever I want there. It is pretty much unmoderated,except repeated adhom will eventually get you in trouble.

  234. Thanks for spotting and posting that, Lars. It speaks volumes of truth.

  235. WTF Anonymous! Have you no shame?

  236. martyrathbun09

    When was the last time, if ever, I moderated you V?

  237. Never that I know of, and I have occassionally posted some pretty off the wall stuff.

    I am not complaining.

    I have seen posters on other sites that claim you moderate them, but I do not know if it is true or not. Geir doesn’t moderate me either, nor has “Emma”, although I have not posted much over there, and nothing at all recently.

    I like to think it is because I am smart enough to post somewhat relevant stuff that is interesting enough. 🙂 And that all you site-owner type folks are smart enough to appreciate it. 🙂

  238. Rainbodhi, this is from the Technical Dictionary:

    SCIENTOLOGY CROSS, a cross about three inches high and is of simple but effective design without lettering or other ornament. The model of the cross came from a very ancient Spanish mission in Arizona, a sand casting which was dug up by Ron. The cross is a regular Roman cross with four additional short points between the four long points, a true eight dynamic Scn cross; the sunburst cross. (Abil 14)

  239. typo – I meant “… do not address whatever …”

  240. Thanks marildi. I have been rather rough on Captain Boson lately, even when I do see his point. To the point I feel I might owe him an apology for being too snarky. Where has all my tact gone? But you are the original “geir-goad” as far as I’m concerned! And he is very good about it. He seems to be practicing this well:

    “God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.”
    Reinhold Niebuhr

  241. Pingback: Is LRH the Antichrist? Was Jesus a Marcabian spy? | Scientology Celebrities & Human Rights

  242. SKM, you quoted this: “…the general message of love, understanding and other typical Marcab PR…”

    And then you wrote, “as if love and understanding was never used by LRH”. The way I got the above quote is that LRH was saying the message was nothing but PR – PR in the derogatory sense, i.e. insincere lies.

  243. p.s. I probably shouldn’t word it as “nothing but” PR as they may be my own additive. But I do think he meant PR in a negative sense – rather than saying anything derogatory about love and understanding in themselves.

  244. martyrathbun09


  245. LOL – Captain Bosun. Funny. 😀

    I’ve actually made the same observation as you – that he has been pretty good about my challenging his blog posts and comments, but lately he’s been invalidating them more and more. I mainly comment as I do because I think his criticisms of Scientology are based on his own lack of training, and I see it as spreading false data. You and I are about the only regulars two who don’t accept and agree with everything he says. At this point, the majority of his posters are critics of Scientology – in any form. You may have seen my recent comment over there that there’s a lot wider spectrum of viewpoints here on Marty’s blog, after someone claimed Marty does a lot of censoring. Marty actually gets a lot harsher personal criticism – and it isn’t censored.

  246. roberttroutman

    Tom, I’m a little baffled by your seeming irritation with my post. You made a point that appeared to me to include a young man’s sexual orientation in a list of antisocial behaviors the young man is engaged in. If “I like dick” means something different than what I think it means, you have my apologies. I’m not the most cosmopolitan man about town 🙂 Perhaps the entire meaning went over my head. Wouldn’t be the first time.

    If that’s the case, and you are so inclined, please tell me what I missed.

    As for the referenced book, yes, I read it a couple of years ago. Dr. Stout’s book was so fascinating and compelling, I lent it out to several friends. I haven’t seen it since.

  247. OK, then I have another question: do I need to buy and read your first two books in order to understand the last one? If so, perhaps you could offer a package discount, say, 3 for the price of 2.

  248. Gern Gaschoen

    You disconnected, didn’t you? And, you’re continuing to handle. You applied Fair Game quite well to the Squirrelbusters! Are you sure we’re not just having an argument to have an argument?

  249. Gern Gaschoen

    And I have no patience for your cowardice.

  250. Regarding the “whispering campaign” of Marty, and any devaluation of his skills and long, very long history of spending his life to make the world a better place: (Quote forwarded from Theo)

    “Attitude and Conduct of Scientology”

    “…the arduous lesson along this line is that no-communication lists, revocation/suspension of certificates, court action of any kind whatsoever within the realm of Scientology and so forth, is not only not only difficult to do but does not work. That’s just the end of it. It just doesn’t work.It’s for the sea gulls. That might work in Gestetner Limited or Westinghouse, but it does not work in Scientology. Got that?”

    “It’s because they are people of good intention. And by saying that these people are not fit to associate with us anymore, we have told a lie of magnitude. This is not true. It’s never true. You got it?”

    “Our inability to understand the actions of other Scientologists has a very fascinating barrier. The limitation on our understanding is simply this: we say they have bad intentions, and that is a lie. Got it?”

    “So the whole situation is liable to enturbulate around that postulated bad intention. That’s what enturbulates the situation. That makes a lie. “The situation then becomes unsolvable. Because we’ve entered a changing factor called a lie into it.”

    “The most valuable asset we have, actually, is our ability to understand, to do the right thing, to be kind, to be decent.”

    “Well, I hate to unsettle a very stable datum, if it does unsettle it. But the only way anything ever does resolve is by letting your own kind heart reach through. That’s the only way it ever does solve. “And it never solves by being tough.”

    “What do we really have of value in the organizations of Scientology? The only thing we have of value, actually, is Scientology, an understanding of life, increasing ability to communicate, a good concept and grip on reality and the ability to like guys. That’s all you got.”

    L Ron Hubbard “Attitude and Conduct of Scientology” (4th London ACC, 3rd November 1955)

  251. Pumpkin,
    Then again on second thought, you opinion counts. Who am I to suggest “don’t try”. True it is a stuck condition which can filter out a thousand voices saying the truth but what if your’s is the 1001st which finally shines through?

    Your input is appreciated.
    Thank you.

  252. Thank you Bob and George. Me and my ex wife Olga Vernardou ex SO always had this question in our minds about this. Thanks you very much for coming out and letting us know that it was part of the OT 8 materials.

  253. Thanks Marildi.
    You may be right.

  254. However, the issue says Metteyya is the Antichrist… ? 😀

    If being Antichrist elevates you to universal love and compassion, I am in for it 😛

    Too bad I have little time today. I have some muslim sources for the Dajjal, where it is mentioned that what the people in general will account for the Dajjal will be in fact the opposite. But what I say here is vague.

    I say this letter leaves more holes open as it gives answers.
    The way it was compiled is stupid.

  255. Ever read Hubbards “Fear” (Victim of the Demons) from 1940 ? Here is a summary:

  256. I see your point Michael.

  257. My opinion is not dogma from me Valkov. I am not a religion. My opinion comes from no doctrine. It comes from my experience. I am questioning your dogma.

  258. Bombshell. Front page news. You have been very generous. The thing I did not understand about this utter fair game of Christ was 1. First Hubbard put it out as an utter implant then, 2. Said it was all very real but Christ was a pedifile. O.K. that’s cool for history interests. Do I care what some man who is and then is not, was doing few thousand years ago that might have come up in his P.C. folder? Is THIS part of what the C of S is selling for 40 grand on Ot8? Gossip? What were the code and morals of people back then? Beating your wife is not O.K. today but 50 years ago it was totally acceptable! Really am I going to judge a man today for what happened a few thousand years ago? ( On a rumor, no hard evidence, just gossip isn’t that against the doubt formula?) The whole arena comes down to who was Christ fucking? And people need to know who Christ was fucking (via gossip unless it was Hubbard himself) to get through Ot8? Really? Wow!

  259. This is another overt product of David Miscavige. OT8 was HIS product.
    It was NEVER released under Hubbard. And he adds this bullshit as vital information on an OT level? Just goes to show you where his head is at. National Enquirer!

  260. I believe we have been at this impasse before Valkov. At which point I default to being grateful that we can have this discussion at all. And grateful to you and Michael H. for sharing your experience and perceptions.

    The very act of this open and public civil discussion, a discussion that would have our heads on a plater, even during Ron’s time, is proof positive that Scientology, the good parts, may survive this diaspora.

    Civil, tolerant and respectful discussion, during disagreements, may be one of the hallmarks of human genius and singular hope for a safer world.

    Thank you Marty for allowing me the liberality of reasoned dissent. Right or wrong, my opinions have been given due reflection by me and do not come from a need to destroy Scientology. Who would want to destroy knowing how to know?

  261. martyrathbun09

    No, you can read any one of them individually. If you bought the package I am pretty sure Amazon gives discounts for such.

  262. Tom Gallagher

    Sexual orientation isn’t the point. To clarify, his extreme promiscuity and even prostitution to satisfy his drug addiction represent red flags that are equal in my mind that the author pointed out as characteristics of a person without a conscience. I hope this clears this up.

  263. martyrathbun09

    No. I don’t accept your attempt to box my life into your implanted concepts. I am trying to help folk out of being controlled by those implants.

  264. Gern Gaschoen

    “Implanted concepts”? Now that is some specious argumentation.

    You may be comfortable belonging to the Empire, but fortunately: a lot of people out here in the world beyond are not ..

  265. As a side note: One of the things that I appreciate and enjoy so much about Marty’s blog and the diversity of commenters and comments that his blog attracts is that I am continuously surprised by the recognition (albeit sometimes latent) that I experience here. And then there’s the prompting I get. Prompting to explore perspectives that had not occurred to me until something someone here says snags my attention and I begin to wonder.

    Within the comment Brian made, a statement snagged my attention and I began to wonder. And while Byron Katie’s four questions are quite useful in getting an exploration within going, this time I didn’t even get to the first question. Instead, I awoke this morning wondering why I thought I needed the ‘four questions.’ Now that question, got the exploration going! And in what followed, at times it seemed as if I had exchanged a ‘where’ for a ‘no where.’ In any event, it was sure a helluva lot of fun! 🙂

    Brian, here’s something that I recognized about the true teacher with regards to me. My true teacher is never outside of me. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, that seems to be outside of me is from my true teacher. My true teacher within. If I seem to have an experience with a ‘teacher’ that is attempting to teach what is not known by the teacher, if that teacher is attempting to con me…well, that is a lesson my true teacher knows I need to have.

    My true teacher within is not bound by the laws of the physical universe, views the entire game board and has only one function, that is; to gradually bring me to fully recognize what I really am, who I really am and where I really am. And EVERYTHING that appears to be outside of myself is the product of my true teacher within and is there to facilitate that function.

  266. No Marty, I checked out some sites. But nothing complete. Any reference for where I can get it? Sounds like history of man stuff and building blocks for future doctrines.

  267. SKM, you wrote, “However, the issue says Metteyya is the Antichrist… ?”

    The excerpt below is the only thing I saw in that issue about Metteyya or Buddhism. Note that the phrase “evolution of consciousness” is in quotation marks (of the type to show irony):

    “With the exception of the original Buddhism, virtually all religions of any consequence on this planet, monotheistic and pantheistic alike, have been instruments to speed the progress of this ‘evolution of consciousness’ and bring about the eventual enslavement of mankind. As you know, Siddhartha Gautama never claimed to be anything more than a man. Having caught on to this operation, he postulated his own return as Meteyya, part of which prophecy will have been fulfilled upon the passing of L. Ron Hubbard.”

  268. Thanks again. I like this what you said:
    “those who make it up the bridge stop wanting to see things in a certain way and hence reality has no other choice but to filling in the vacuum.”
    This is insightful.
    Something I noticed as the False data (I keep a list) started pealing off an interesting thing happened – I would ask questions about life etc. and they would be ANSWERED within at the most only days! Things I wanted to know for a lifetime. So what you said there about the vacuum rings true.

  269. roberttroutman

    Thanks, Tom. The additional information (extreme promiscuity and prostitution) helped clarify the point you were making.

  270. Roger from Switzerland Thought

    A dangerous thought:

    I just read through this secret Bulletin that could have been on OT8 once. I don’t know if they are really true.

    But, in case they are, it would make a lot of sense to what DM is doing and one could have the idea he is operating on this bulletin and is preparing everything for when the AC will come !

    He believes in: ” The good news is that once this is run out. expansion becomes rather effortless and almost automatic.” And he wants the second coming to not occur !

    Any fanatic, despotic leader had a crazy vision of what he really wanted to achieve and was clearly communicating it. Dm never clearly expressed his real vision and goal. It could be that those Ideas expressed in this writing are his visions, that he doesn’t tell anybody, as they are secrets !

    Would make a lot of sense !

  271. TO, my thoughts, exactly.

  272. Sapere Aude

    V & M – Having followed that for some time I would have to add that much of the “justification” or “knowledge” behind the criticism’s stem from an inability to differentiate between identities, similarities and differences. I have seen items made or stated to be identical or similar which there was more in their differences when the original writings were compared. Thanks for both of your contributions.

    I also see a wider spectrum on Marty’s blog.

  273. Hi S.A. Unfortunately, the problem in trying to clarify whatever point in Scn is being discussed is compounded by the fact that there seems to be a button on anyone quoting LRH. Go figure. 🙂 Anyway, I hadn’t specifically looked at it in terms of inability to differentiate between identities, similarities and differences – but of course you’re right, and that makes it less frustrating to see it that way. Thanks for your comment!

  274. Laughter! I agree with both of you!

  275. Either DM doesn’t want “his secrets” (quoting you) known or it’s as George (Path of Buddha) suggested, that he simply doesn’t understand it. It apparently took extensive word clearing even for the OT 8’s and DM may have done the deceitfully expedient thing – which was to remove LRH material from the OT 8 lineup. In a couple of interesting comments above, George wrote:

    “I met miscavige on the Freewinds after I read the anti-christ information. He looked to me like he was in a daze of confusion at the time. He cancelled OT8 a few months later and ordered everyone to return to Flag for re-tread.”

    “The key to understanding it on the Freewinds in 1988 boiled down to extensive word clearing especially in regard to ‘Fundamentals of Thought’ The anti-christ data is actually minor in the context of the bigger picture.”

    Btw, from what I got out of the issue, the whole “anti-Christ” notion is based on LRH’s observation that Christians (along with others in most of the major religions) have been used to “bring about the eventual enslavement of mankind”. Talk about confronting “dangerous thoughts”! This may turn out to be a real test of the ability to do so.

  276. LRH does not have an understanding of Christianity. One example is his statement that Christianity is based on the Vedas. This is simply not true. Both, the Vedas and the Old Testament, were written in the same time period. They were very similar and based on spiritual information extant at the time, but they were conceived independently in two different places. His outrageous statements always bothered me, though I love the tech he created.

  277. Which dogma of mine do you purport to be questioning? I don’t recall posting one.

    Your response smells of “Don’t defend, attack”. That’s OK I guess, I dealt with Alanzo on that basis for about 4 years.

    Come on over to Geir’s blog, we can have it out there, I doubt Marty is too excited about us carrying on here.

  278. Brian I do not recall “being at this impasse before”. I do not even feel at an impasse. I may have forgotten, I forget many things. Or did you post under a different name? Refresh my memory if you care to, or not.

  279. Hi Gail. You may very well be right, but even if LRH was wrong about Christianity being based on the Vedas – and the actual fact of the matter is that the Vedas and the Old Testament are merely “very similar”, as you wrote – does that prove that LRH was necessarily wrong about the Christians and others being used for some ulterior, dark motive? I really don’t know, but I don’t have any reason to reject the possibility out of hand either. I think it’s an interesting, maybe even vital, subject to consider.

  280. Hi Gail,

    I wrote a comment further up, quoting some of Hubbard’s views about Christianity.

    What he seems to be saying is that the wisdom found in the New Testament is of a similar nature to that found in the Vedas in terms of message, regardless of how it came to be. He’s actually being a bit cheeky, suggesting that the Vedas reflect the God of Christianity more accurately than what’s found in the Old Testament.

    He also said that the Rg Veda is at least 10,000 years old.

    I think that many of his statements regarding other religions should really be taken with a grain of salt, and not as his final views on anything. It seems like he used his opinions for effect a lot, often depending on a point he was trying to make about a particular subject or approach. Thus there’s a lot of shifting around which ends up with him seemingly contradicting himself.

  281. I have the opinion that I should not accept the story line of others or their conspiracy theories. This includes LRH stories. What I have discovered is what I know to be true. By the by, I uncovered ole Xemu running the L’s when I had never heard of him before. I did the L’s before the OT levels. That gave me certainty on the OT levels and blew me away.

  282. Gail, what you posted maybe accurate as far as it goes, about The Old Testament being contemporaneous(date coincident) in origin with the Vedas, but the Old Testament really has nothing to do with Christianity as such.

    The New Testament is all about Christ, the Old Testament is derived from the Hebrew Bible and was adapted and adopted as part of Christianity, possibly as an “appeal to authority” to make the “good news” more acceptable to the culture into which it was being introduced. The New Testament was thus tailored to appear to be the fulfillment of prophecies in the Old Testament.

    Christ’s actual messages and teachings appear to me to be derived from Buddhist and thus indirectly from Vedic sources. There are many correspondences, more than there are to Old Testament/Hebrew teachings. But of course I am a heretic when it comes to these things.

    The Hebrew calendar goes back nearly 6,000 years, which may well be contemporaneous with the original date of the Vedas, as you say. but the New Testament is a much more recent creation.

    The New Testament is recognized as reversing some of the moral and ethical views of the Old, along the lines of going from promoting a philosophy of “An eye for an eye”, to promoting one of “Turn the other cheek”.

    Thus Christianity has been read as an attempt to civilize savage barbarians; obviously it was not entirely successful but likely did succeed to some extent. Unfortunately, we still have a tendency to operate off of, “Do unto others – only do it first!”

  283. marildi, there are scholars and students of history who support an affirmative answer to your question. They believe Christianity was often used as one prong of an imperialistic subversion and take-over of other cultures.

    This quote has been attributed to both Native American and African sources. It seems to fit both:

    “When the white man first came to this land, we had the land and they had the bible. They taught us to pray with our eyes closed. When we opened them again, we had the bible and the white man had the land.”

    This is similar to “Russian humor”. 🙂

  284. Nice 🙂

  285. Wow, Gail, that is great data about your personal discovery of Xemu in your auditing. That’s what I call direct knowledge! At the very least, it seems to me it would have to be conceded that there is data about him in at least some people’s banks, especially considering you knew nothing about him prior to the auditing. Thanks much for sharing that.

    And I would have to agree with you about not necessarily accepting conspiracy theories, no matter the source – although I would consider some sources’ word more seriously than others. For me, it’s hard to brush off the fact that LRH apparently wrote that issue specifically for pc’s on OT 8, presumably at a relatively late date in his life, which is why I think it’s something to take a look at. After all, Xemu has been considered Sci Fi too, so there we go. 🙂

  286. Val, I guess I like Russian humor – that’s a pretty funny quote. Well, depending on one’s viewpoint… 🙂 But it does say a lot!

    I should know by now that you are one of the best resources on religion and historical matters. Thanks!

  287. I got what you said Rain but the blatant misrepresentation of history by 8500 years is crazy.

  288. And as far as the people making such an issue out of OT3 and the OT3 materials, this subject is ancient history in the Book of Lika. Jehovah’s Witness common texts:

    Chapter XXl


  289. The first books of the Old Testament were written around 1500 BC as were the first Vedic texts, 1500 not 10000.

  290. Uh-oh marildi, that is Captain BosOn, not Captain Bosun!

    I think he feels you are not entirely duplicating and acking him, which may be true. You are very quick.

  291. Dirk Niblick

    It seems clear you don’t understand disconnection or fair game whatsoever. You seem blissfully unaware of the ramifications these policies have had when applied to the letter and in the spirit in which they were written.

    On this blog, you pop up every few months to make outrageous and angry posts defending fair game and disconnection. You spout conspiracy theories and even often wistfully push the idea of creating another Sea Org.

    I wish you the best, but I feel you are still stuck in the church mentally. Your posts seem judgmental, paranoid, angry, “certain,” and unwilling to see anything wrong with anything LRH promoted. You seem to think you know it all, and Marty and others are beneath you. This attitude is rampant in the church.

    It’s quite clear you haven’t read Marty’s books, nor have you given much thought to the problems at the root of the church’s downfall. Your posts seem to be a perfect example of what Marty and others have described as being wrong with Scientology.

  292. Gail,

    That’s very curious. What exactly did you uncover and how did it come about?

  293. Oracle:

    If only (on both counts). That’s Oahspe and the JWs wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole. 🙂

  294. In a session with Merril Mayo, I recalled the suppression from xemu as the basic on the track I was running. I called him by name with some detail, despite never hearing of him before. I have had many times I had proof of the truth in Sn but that time stands out in my mind.

  295. I can see where one might figure that Jesus was influenced by Vedic texts as they have a kind God instead of a wrathful God. I think your “do it first” philosophy is extant in the nonChristian people, not most Christians.

  296. Hi Gail,

    There are Eastern scholars (such as B.G. Siddharth) who claim it to be at least as old as that. 🙂

    However, this really hasn’t seem to have been picked up on by Western Scholars, for the most part.

    I’m not saying that Hubbard was either right or wrong, but there are studies to support his assertion.

    I guess the point is that Scientologists aren’t Theosophists, so when he mentions something, it’s worth checking into not only the source texts, but also their surrounding scholarship, wherever possible. Occasionally the findings can be surprising.

    In particular, he mentions “Hymn to the Dawn Child” as being important. In the South African Anatomy Congress, he refers to it as his source for the cycle of action. There, he gives it as being “Hymn 4” of the Rig Veda, which actually seems to be Mandala 4, Hymn 51 (one of the oldest portions). In it, the Dawns arise from the darkness in a continuous succession of mornings. It’s quite beautiful:


  297. That is an interesting poem. Thanks for taking the time.

  298. rainbodhi, There are several branches of many different religions that have included the New Bible into their learning, including Muslims. This has been around since the 1880’s for a reason.


    Perhaps not fundamentalists. The same way you can have a Jewish person involved with Scientology. Scientology fits along side a person’s native religion as well . Not everyone abandons every faith to understand Scientology. There are plenty of people all over the world that have incorporated the new Bible into their existing library of knowledge.

    The point I was trying to make, and I should have posted this directly to Brian under the thread about the OT3 materials, is that some people have been acclimated to an awareness of spiritual influences from before last century. This is an idea from the 1800’s. Right up to asking the influence, “Who are you?”

    I point this out to some critics and it could have been pointed out to the media decades ago.

    The premise is different as in the new Bible, these influences (or not) are considered to be about ethics, not engrams.

  299. OMG, I guess “Bosun” was the Freudian slip of an ex-SO member. 😀

    You may be right – I could be remiss on the “velocity” element of communication.

  300. Wow! Thank you for sharing something so intriguing. 🙂

    There are a number of implications there.

    As someone more aligned with buddhism, I can accept the idea of a shared traumatic experience from many lifetimes ago. Even just with regards to the Holocaust, that’s something that our future incarnations are going to hit upon, many lifetimes down the track. Even in thousands of years, perhaps when there is no recorded history left for whatever reason, we are going to hit upon the name “Hitler” as soon as we have the means to discover our past life experiences.

    It’s also a reminder to try and overcome our negative influences and conditions in the here and now, through whatever means possible.

    Thank you again. 🙂

  301. Every time I ask for *documentation* to back that one up like: the names of the specific persons who did this alleged infiltration, the names of the specific persons who “sent them in”, the orders comm lines, copies of any orders being passed over these alleged lines, etc. Well people like you come up with *NOTHING*. It’s all one big fat generality. Next step is you tell us you have all these documents but you will refuse to produce them.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  302. martyrathbun09

    Name calling deleted.

  303. Pingback: Ein umstrittenes Hubbard-OT VIII-Dokument wurde in seiner Echtheit von zwei Ex-Scientologen bestätigt … | Blog gegen Scientology

  304. Pingback: Scientology => Church of Scientology | Geir Isene

  305. I will confirm that the memoirs book stands entirely on its own, might even be a better read as a first book. Repetitive to a Scientologist in parts perhaps, it seems Marty took pains to make it understandable to people who had little or no background. Not an easy feat.

  306. Off the cuff

    diligence in practice
    passion for learning
    willing to be constructively self critical
    self discipline
    non attachment to outcomes
    right meditation ( each individual must answer this one for themselves)
    self inquiry
    differentiation ( I am not my mind, I am not my body, I am not my emotions. This is not a denial of these things but a proper understanding of the souls relation to them)
    treating others with kindness

    these are some that come to mind

  307. I agree Monte about the inner teacher. That is the only teacher there is. And the only place an ‘outer’ teacher or liberated master addresses thus re familiarizing the student with………… himself

  308. But Old Secretary, come visit occassionally. Just bring a shovel. 🙂

  309. Perhaps the Vatican put pressure on Miscavige to suppress that bulletin. Miscavige is of Polish Roman Catholic descent, and that bulletin contains material that is distinctly Gnostic in nature, which has been ruthlessly suppressed over the centuries by established Christianity.

  310. For those who are interested in understanding the possible historical context of the controversial OT VIII Bulletin, this:

    All that about Lucifer dovetails with ancient Gnostic “gospels” that were nearly completely wiped out of existence but were hidden away in the Egyptian desert probably many centuries ago, and were only discovered in 1945. They have since been translated and published in English. They are known as the Nag-Hammadi manuscripts, named for the location of their discovery.

    In some of these Gnostic Gospels, the cosmology portrays the God of the Old Testament (who is the Christian God also), as the villain, the bad guy. Lucifer, and the Serpent among others, are the good guys attempting to free Mankind from the thralldom the evil God and his Savior has us in.

    Googling for ‘nag-hammadi’ brings up many links. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the Vatican has had all these texts and more all along, in their secret library that few ever have access to, but they have always been entirely suppressed out of the awareness of the mass of the populations of Earth by the established Christian churches. It was Gnostics that the “witch-hunts” were all about.

    This site presents many links to books, studies, and lectures about Gnosticism.

  311. Gern Gaschoen

    Actually the facts are out there already and are in the hands of the people who are going to do something effective about it …

  312. Gern Gaschoen

    You are making a lot of assumptions, and that is what is wrong with the world in general, not just Scientology – people assuming they know .. “seeming” to be something is not the same as actually being something. Yes, I have read Marty’s books – no I do not agree with Marty or his position, and yes I do think that something important has been missed in the rush to “solve the problem”. Thats why I participate in this conversation. Or, what, did you expect that this blog would only be used by folks that agree with Mary 100%? Thats a naive position to take. Marty has his opinion, I have mine. Fortunately neither one of us are being followed around by sycophants and true-believers, but rather being engaged by people who allow us to challenge our own points of view ..

  313. Pretty damn good Brian for being ‘”off the cuff.”

    I would like to add (and this is also off the cuff): willing to look; willing to look again and again and again…; willing to be uncomfortable; willing to change one’s mind; willing to allow; willing to not judge; willing to forgive; willing to give; willing to receive; and have no expectations.

    I’m asking my higher self: “Why does anyone need or want a teacher, seek out a teacher, listen to a teacher, follow a teacher?” The answer that came: “To find a better way.”

    Now I ask, “Why does a true teacher want to teach?” The answer I received: “To show a better way.”

    It is my consideration that we each are simultaneously both teacher (true teacher) and student. Blend the attributes that you have listed for the true teacher with those you have listed for the student Brian, and we have ourselves one helluva composition.

  314. Gern, when we blame outside agencies for our condition, we surrender the power to change. What is happening to Scientology is a result of words. Words written and word cleared, demoed and checked out. Education is a form of behavior moditification. Scientology is an APPLIED philosophy. That means you study words, ideas, concepts and then do something. You act. Aand if those actions are counter to survival you crumble. Not becuse of an anthropomorphic generality like society. But because of learning ans acting.

    Attack aand destroy, creating the GO and many many many other counter survival doctrines tht have been acted upon by people.

    There are professional people making millions of dollars fixing companies whose stats are falling. If the ever went to the share holders and said,” the reason our stats are down is because of society, he’d be fired on the spot.

    You have been tricked into Scientologies deepest trick. Blame the evil other. Victimization is a sacred rite in Scientology, because looking at the real cause is a Hi Crime. Makes the thinking processa little tenuos when you know an honest answer means loosing your family.

    Blaming others then becomes survival

  315. Wanting or having a teacher is natural. Some students are anxious, in a good way, to getting on with evolving. I could study the guitar myself and become a pro, but there is something special in having a teacher that you trust that can impart knowledge from a lineage of pros.

    Also a good teacher can help one avoid the pitfalls of getting into non productive practice. Having a teacher is a personal thing. It comes into bad reputation from time to time because of teachers abusing their power and influence aand getting bad press.

    The good teachers are their if you are looking. But you are not and that is fine. I’m not promoting you getting one, I’m just saying the student-preceptor relationship can be an honorable one.

    BTW, your qualities mentioned above are nice! You know 🙂

  316. Also Monte a true teacher wants to teach because of this story/allegory that is sometimes spoken:

    A spiritual aspirant studied and practiced for many many years. And then he made it to the shore of liberation. And there all suffering came to an end and the burst of joy and wisdom filled his heart with unconditioned being. He realize he was immortal and could fly through the skies of a million worlds of beauty. The Universe itself became a joyous playground consisting of only light and shadows projected on the screen of space much like a movie projector projects only light and shadows to entertain the audience. But this liberated soul looked up and saw that the projected images on the screen was only a beam of light. A beam of light from the booth of eternity creating the real to touch real to sight illusion of the movie/universe.

    Filled with such bliss his is heart was exploading with freedom and, knowing himself to be ever free.

    Then he remembered his friends and famility still gasping in pain and suffering from watching scary scenes on the movie screen.

    Out of love and compassion, the successful student, now liberated from all sorrow said to himself, “I can move on now to more infinite horizons to worlds beyond the earth where the gardens of the gods play in gossimer worlds of ever expanding being. But I will not go further, I must go back and tell my friends of the joy that awaits them through spiritual practice. My friends also can find this happiness.”

    Then the student becomes the teacher for one motive only: the freedom and joy that they too can experience. If you won 100 million dollars wouldn’t you help you mother, brother, sister, friends with some?

    Out of love and compassion from time to time teachers incarnate to bring love and freedom. Such was the Buddha, such was the Christ, Such was Krishna and many many more known and unknown.

    When the student is ready, the teacher arrives. It is not the business bargain of regimented membership. It is the magnetism of attraction, like finding a wife, a husband, a friend.

    It is a most beautiful relationship, most beautiful.

  317. Sure, if you consider that the tech is a dramatizations of Ron. Then it’s word cleared clay demoed dramatization. But I think Gern is blaming society in general, like blaming a cultural cycle of development or lack thereof.

    And it could be speculated that some future more evolved society would not fall for some of the garbage doctrines. In that regard to could consider societies mental development.

    I could also blame the air for keeping you alive to experience being a scientologist to dramatize.

    But I think Gern is still in denial. Scientology/Ron was very good at deflecting cause from self and blaming external causes. That one missing capacity for self criticism surrenders all reasoned solutions for resolving any problem to being non existent.

    Oh no, here comes a fucking cliche! : the truth lies within!

  318. in the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god

  319. YES
    Anonymous Denounces Censorship of Scientology Books in Russia

  320. richelieu jr

    The cross is quite clearly copied from the one Aleister Crowley used in his books… It is cited and who in many books and the resemblance is so close that the only way it couldn’t be the inspiration is if it came later (it did not), or if Hubbard had never seen it (he certainly had, even if you believe that baloney about him only having been ‘investigating’ Jack Parsons. Crowley called them ‘idiots’, but he was certainly capable of copying a cross; They are easy to draw, even for me, and I am pretty incompetent at drawing).

    Can’t seem to transfer the image, but you will find it on this (rabidly anti-Scientology blog– I’m sorry, I could have found it elsewhere, but it is very ate here, I’m tired, and frankly–This is rather obvious. I don’t endorse everything on the blog, but this comparison speaks for itself)

    You’ll find it about 20% of the way down:


  321. Brian, thank you very much for sharing this allegory. I really appreciate it. It resembles many of my own interpretations of what I perceive. It is a story that I would feel comfortable sharing. Although, that said, I would probably adjust a few points to even more closely reflect my interpretation.

    It seems to me, and perhaps you have observed this too Brian, that when a person is doing something (regardless of what it might be) that they believe is making their life better, they, more often than not, want to share their story (their success) with others. Whether conscious of it or not, we know that we are all connected and when we can help others that appear to be outside of ourselves, to in some way do better in their life journey, we are helping ourself.

    I have had the good fortune and joy to observe many folks waking up to many things. Some of those people go back to sleep but many just keep waking up a bit more each day. They begin to actively climb the ladder where the rungs of the ladder are KNOW and the spaces in between are DON’T KNOW. When a person grabs that rung of KNOW where they suddenly realize that they are CONNECTED to EVERYTHING, that they are indeed ONE with EVERYTHING…Man o man! That’s when they really start to wake up! That’s when they really begin to integrate, evolve and transcend! Up the ladder w/rockets!

    From the story you shared: “Out of love and compassion, the successful student, now liberated from all sorrow said to himself, ‘I can move on now to more infinite horizons to worlds beyond the earth where the gardens of the gods play in gossimer worlds of ever expanding being. But I will not go further, I must go back and tell my friends of the joy that awaits them through spiritual practice. My friends also can find this happiness.’ ”

    I believe that whenever one of us becomes the liberated student, that we recognize that the ‘us’ is actually the ONE appearing as seemingly infinite fragments (individualities). So…we begin to teach, to help, to guide, and so on the rest of OUR SELF wake up.

  322. Hi Richelieu Jr,

    Not so fast!

    I believe that if you’re trying to do an objective study, it’s a good idea to look as deeply as possible. There are numerous times I’ve come across information regarding Hubbard that turns out to have a deeper trail than originally expected. This is why I asked my original question regarding the cross.

    The main problem with sites such as those is not necessarily that they’re critical of Scientology per se, it’s more that they’re full of conspiracy theories and misinformation. It doesn’t mean that something can’t be gleaned from them – but if anything they’re just starting points.

    The cross on that site is an important symbol of the Golden Dawn, and can be traced back further to Rosicrucianism as well. There are a number of symbolic influences there, and its history gets very hazy after a point (although an ancient ancestry is often claimed by these groups).

    It is quite feasible that Hubbard did in fact excavate an antique cross that looked not unlike the cross used by the GD. A number of Spanish Mission crosses had embellishments such as floral motifs, loops, and rays. For example:



    So he could well have found something quite similar to this – and possibly even thought “Hey, that looks a bit like a GD cross!” as his incentive to use it as a working basis for what became the Scientology cross (which is very simple in its form, without any ornamentation).

    However, there are still a number of unanswered questions, such as, what’s the meaning behind the motifs on the earlier cross, if any? Did he already know about this? And what was the actual form that he had found?

  323. Brian, there was a time in my life that whenever I made a mistake I would instantly introvert, begin to self-judge and then follow that up with self- condemn. It seemed, too, that I always managed to project others into m environment that would support and contribute to my choice of response to the situation. Especially, the judge and condemn part. Over the years the endurance of this default response began to diminish (my SC experience helped immensely in this) i.e., I would still click into the default response but the length spent there became less and less. I do not know exactly when it happened but there was a point where my interpretation of a perceived mistake changed drastically. I suddenly came into a recognition that a mistake only continues to be interpreted as a mistake until it is perceived as being a lesson as well as an opportunity. Ever since this shift in interpretation (this recognition) occurred, I have never again considered mistakes, mine or those made by others, as being anything but the lessons and opportunities I now consider them to be. In other words, the word ‘mistake’ is, for me, synonymous with the words ‘lesson’ and ‘opportunity.’ It was a gift from the teacher within.

    A ‘bad’ teacher is for me like a mistake. I have had more than a few ‘bad’ teachers that taught me remarkable lessons as well as furnished me with wonderful opportunities to choose a response of love rather than slip into the old default response of fear. In the moment I had the recognition about what a mistake really is, I altered my future probabilities. I gave myself peace, love and understanding in the tomorrows to come.

    Brian, I must say that I have greatly enjoyed and benefited from this little exchange we’ve had. The way I have interpreted some of your comments has launched me into explorations within, then without and then back within again. Wow! These are the sort of explorations that quickly go beyond words.

    In this journey through time and space there is no randomness. I cannot help but be at the right place at the right time.

  324. Pingback: Reviews: Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior | Moving On Up a Little Higher

  325. MaBű | July 5, 2013 at 11:48 am |
    This discussion is missing a crucial point: the Gnostic religious cosmology.
    “According to Gnosticism: Each one of us is a spark of the Divinity who “lost” our Divinity state. “God” and the Beings helping “God” are the real enslavers. They are enslaving us with the Laws of “God” which we are to obey or get very harsh punishment.”
    Describes Scientology to me: lots of laws and harsh punishment. I’m now convinced Hubbard was a Prince of Darkness not a Liberator. He Liberated for the purpose of enslaving, the way I look at it. Oh well.

  326. Clear definitions for key words seems to be missing in this post.   


  327. richelieu jr

    Hi Rainbodhi,

    Sorry for the long delay, I guess I never received a notice that anyone had responded to my posting or I would have!

    I totally take your point, and in fact, Crowley was constantly saying he had taken these things from ancient sources. I simply believe since Hubbard openly stated Crowley’s influence, calling him his ‘great friend’, and his connection with Parsons i indisputable that this is more likely source than any hypothetical ‘research’ he may have done.

    As for the Rosicrucians, and the Knights of the Rosy Cross, and all of that, there you enter a very great hall of mirrors indeed… I wrote my dissertation on the possiblity of a ‘Conspiracy to Imply there is a Conspiracy’ with the Rosy Cross as a case in point: Everyone was certain there was some shadowy hand operating unseen, secret sects and conspiracies and this today seems quite unlikely. There were an awful lot of people putting up handbills and darkly hinting they were privy to deep dark secrets, though; A bit like today, I’m sure you would agree!

    My point being that this sort of inquiry tends to become less, rather than more clear, and to reflect more the prejudice of those doing the investigating than actual, cartesian reality past a certain point. If your questioning has brought to light any more likely origins than the one I posit int he interim, I wold be quite interested in learning about them.


  328. Charles Morgenstern

    I can affirm and prove that this was the authentic version of OT VIII.I was given a copy of this HCOB which consisted of his introduction,what is shown here,plus a bunch of rundowns,all in the same May 1980 HCOB.I went to the OSA in 1988 in Portland,OR and said “I want a full refund for all the services I bought at St Hill or I will be on Action News and reveal the.contents of OT VIII”.After a short lecture karen ???? somebody gave me,she said we will have to inspect it first.I said I had another copy and gave her the original.They verified within a day or two and asked that I turn over the last copy when I come in to pickup my check.I immediately “knew” the ruse they were planning so I made 3 copies.One I left at home.One I had in my pocket.The third I handed to her.She asked “Is this your last copy?”I said yes.She started yelling I was an extortionist and.I wasnt getting anything as it belonged to RTC.I smiled,turned towards the stairs ,as I reached the stairs “I pulled another copy out of my pocket and yelled this is going on Action News.As I walked fast out of there,OT V 8 Fred King who worked for some Scn investment company,came running after me and started profusely apologizing,saying what she did was 9unethical.He had the check on him,I insisted he go with me to their bank to ensure I got my money.It cleared.I got the full amount.He got copy number 2.He asked me again if I had any other copies.I said no.So I know for a fact that this is the authentic.copy.Scientology had their ass kicked by a true ninja,yours truly.I caused them a super engram of financial loss.😆😅😄By the way,every word of my account can be verified by Karin ??? whoever worked in pdx OSA and Fred King of Hollander consultants.(1988-early 1989).

  329. martyrathbun09 | July 4, 2013 at 1:21 pm | Reply
    “The alleged OT VIII “HCOB” that calls Jesus a pedophile? Yes, a hoax.”

    Hi Marty,

    I made a semantic analysis of this OT VIII Series I bulletin, comparing 200 expressions in it to 10 Go (around 50,000 pages) of LRH writings and lectures (MS Word and PDF), using a Desktop Search Engine to calculate statistics of language habits, repetitions of expression, etc.

    While it is just statistics, some might find this work interesting.

    The link is here : Analysis of OT VIII Series I STUDENT BRIEFING.

    Best regards,
    Myrddin Emris

  330. And an extended version of the text above, in MS Word (.doc) permitting to move back and forth from text to end notes, with a technical analysis of conflicting data. If anyone here could still be interested, after all this time :
    Analysis of OT VIII Series I Student Briefing (MS Word)

  331. Pingback: Scientology’s Secret Teachings about Jesus Christ | The Scientology Money Project

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