My Practice

My practice is grounded in client-centered education techniques.  That is not because I sought to duplicate them.  Instead, I recently came to learn that the way I coach and counsel toward recovery and graduation from Scientology was discovered and written about long before I was born.  Reading of it helped me to improve what I was already doing.  Carl Rogers covered this approach in his book, On Becoming a Person, explaining how educational techniques logically evolve out of client-centered therapy.

That I gravitated in this direction during my own recovery and graduation should be no surprise, given the authoritarian, religious discipline all Scientologists studied under for so many years.  The client-centered approach is tailored to consulting the understanding of the client or student.  In that regard, it radically differs from Hubbard’s training approach that was memorialized as follows:

If you can’t graduate them with their good sense appealed to and their wisdom shining, graduate them in such a state of shock they’ll have nightmares if they contemplate squirreling (defined as departing one iota from the letter of what is taught).  – L. Ron Hubbard, Keeping Scientology Working

That learning philosophy was explained further in Hubbard’s highest level instructions (Class VIII course) wherein he told the most advanced Scientologists that humanity was incapable of being appealed to through understanding; and so, instead, it was their duty to command people and make them ‘obey.’   (See Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior, Amazon Books 2012)

Irrespective of the fact that much of the technology such methods sought to impart was geared towards bringing a person to self-determined understandings, that system of indoctrination ultimately implants fixed, subjective ideas about living, God and ultimate spiritual concerns.  At the end of the day, the methods place a glass ceiling on growth (in fact create regression) by means of enforced belief that curiosity and thirst for continuing education inherently stem from aberration.

It may well be that I was also influenced in the client-centered approach through my own earlier education, some of which was influenced by, or was even attempting to experiment in, Roger’s educational recommendations.  The middle school I attended was a fail-pass (no grade), choice of curriculum, self-scheduling format with emphasis on consulting students’ interests.  I also attended a semester of similar organization at University of California Santa Cruz.  I never knew until I read Rogers where these ideas came from.  Perhaps my Scientology study contributed to this leaning too, since I have noted in the post On Becoming A Person, Scientology’s central practice (auditing) is a modified, structuralized form of Rogerian client-centered therapy.  No matter what led to which along this road, it is interesting to note how what gets around comes around.

Having studied all of Scientology and a great deal on the subjects that led to its development (including their continued evolution while Scientology has remained static), a simple, workable rule of thumb has materialized for me.  That is, the degree to which Scientology departs from its client-centered philosophical and technical roots is proportional to the degree it harms rather than helps.  This in large part has become evident to me in helping people who were disappointed with their Scientology experience over the past five years.  Almost to a one, somewhere along the line each individual’s intent and purpose for engaging in Scientology in the first place were tampered with, rejected and replaced entirely by imposed intents and purposes.

Somewhere along the line in the Scientology experience the magic of the technology – each of its efficacious results marked by its adherence to its client-centered philosophic roots – is replaced by inculcation of the client rather than consultation and service of his or her needs, wants, aspirations and purposes.  Those goals do, and ought to if a positive evolution of awareness and ability is being achieved, change along the road.   But evolution in Scientology is geared solely toward achievement of goals that do not involve the client’s participation in establishing, except to the extent means are employed to obtain the client’s agreement to pursue them.  The attainment of those implanted goals turns out to be purely subjective – no matter how clothed in science its claims and promises are presented.   An objective examination of the result of those who pursue the implanted goals to their ends – no matter how convincing its achievers may be in professing their alleged subjective feelings of happiness, power, ability and bliss of self-actualization – proves their actions often betray their vigorous assertions of equanimity.  For the most part they have turned their own self-determinism (the restoration of which is promised) over lock, stock and barrel to their teacher (See What Is Wrong With Scientology, Amazon Books 2012).  They will lie, steal, and cheat for their religion without a twinge of conscience – all while attempting to exude a vibrant, open, extroverted appearance. Thus, they cannot be trusted by ordinary mortals, not even by their mothers, fathers or even their children. In any values computation, their religion trumps conscience.  And thus the price of the ultimate ring in Scientology is the forfeiture of one’s conscience.

That result is patently evident from counseling a number of people who have completed much of, or all of, the Scientology route both inside and outside of Scientology.  To a one, of those who graduated and moved on, their departures from Scientology were occasioned by their consciences failing to succumb to Scientology demands that they be forfeited.  To a one, of the dozens I have counseled.  The top Scientology achievers who remain, who forfeit their consciences to achieve (or at least assert) the ultimate super human powers Scientology promises, are in the somewhat schizophrenic condition of apparently being as happy as hell but in fact having nowhere to go. The result is continued, slavish adherence to the goals and programs of an organization that – by the time it has ceased delivering client-centered techniques – offers no purpose beyond self-perpetuation and world dominance.  The resultant super-amped adherent’s course is described well by Abraham Maslow, as apparently a common result of many paths that lose sight of client-centered principles:

The better we know which ends we want, the easier it is for us to create truly efficient means to those ends.  If we are not clear about those ends, or deny there are any, then we are doomed to confusion of instruments.  We can’t speak about efficiency unless we know efficiency for what.  (I want to quote again the veritable symbol of our times, the test pilot who radioed back, ‘I’m lost, but I’m making record time.’)

Client-centered education begins with finding out where the interests and purposes of the student (client) lie.  One encourages open communication in that discovery process.  Viktor Frankl’s work Man’s Search For Meaning is helpful in that regard.  Knowing the individual before you proceed is essential in working to recover and strengthen that person’s determinism.  Omitting this step tends to usurp determinism.  One doesn’t rehabilitate and enhance the faculty of determinism by indoctrination that conflicts with the client’s interests and purposes.  For example, one does not force a student who is inspired by, inclined toward – and thus usually gifted in some way – the arts to become an arms manufacturing specialist.  Similarly, one would not attempt to enforce upon a person seeking spiritual awakening the behavior and habits of a para-military religious zealot.

A client-centered educator does not preach and teach as much as find out and only then guide. He puts more emphasis on assisting an individual in finding and following his own purposes and interests.  He then does what he can to help the person move along that chosen path with the best possible chances for success. He acts more as a facilitator than an instructor.  He operates more of a resources center than a rigid curriculum school.

I have been asked, and challenged, to publish the specific route I recommend several times.  I have tried to do that.  But, each time in the process I find myself thinking of particular individual whom I have assisted in the past and recognize that a given reference for that person would not be of interest or applicable to another individual I had worked with.  No two paths are exactly the same.   I have learned through life that to the extent one tries to convince you otherwise that person is trying to lead you to where he wants you to go – irrespective of how eloquently he might convincingly represent otherwise. To the extent one attempts to enforce one way for all, one deviates from the client-centered approach – and some other interest or evaluation is entered into the equation for someone to whom it may not apply or serve any salutary purpose.

There are a number of recommendations I have made in the recommended reading section of the blog that I find myself recommending over and over again to people.   For the most part those are applicable to the Scientology decompression and contextualization process, and lead toward freeing one from Scientology’s injunctions against exercise of conscience and awareness.  Most of them were chosen because of their effectiveness in expanding people’s intellectual and spiritual horizons after years or decades of having those horizons treated as forbidden terrain.

I am working on a book that will make many more recommendations for those seeking to move up the Scientology Bridge in an integral fashion (non-cult, integrated approach), and another for those seeking to move up from and beyond the Scientology Bridge.  In the meantime, I strongly recommend that those embarking on the Scientology path – whether in the church or out – read  What Is Wrong With Scientology?, before doing so.  It will help you avoid the pitfalls inherent in the system.

121 responses to “My Practice

  1. Thank you. Your words hit many spots, so thank you for your writings.

    I, myself, have conversations with many people but have lost the need or desire to have another person walk me through anything, ie auditor. When I left the cos, I left many “needs” type ideas behind. But having someone with wisdom to listen to and converse with often hits a spot and allows me to see something in a different way or new way that expands my viewpoint. And for that I am grateful.

  2. Robert Splawn

    Thanks again to you & Mosey for having me over. I’m very glad I stopped by. I definitely needed some things handled!

  3. Warren Marston

    Basically, you’ve just said that we need to get back to REAL Scientology. Everything you cite as the negatives of Scientology are actually elements of NOT-Scientology that pushed REAL Scientology out of the Church before you became involved with the tech. The LRH quote you cite from the Class 8 tapes was referring to the general public, not the aware elite who reach for Scientology. As for Rogers, Maslow, and Frankl, I studied all of them in college prior to Scientology, loved them, and then found all of their key points in REAL Scientology before the tech was corrupted.

  4. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    WOW !¨
    ¨Great !
    Thanks !


  5. martyrathbun09

    Congratulations on having achieved total certainty on being one of the few elite and aware on this planet.

  6. martyrathbun09

    It was great to have you. Thanks for coming.

  7. FireBreathing Frog

    How dare you don’t fully agree with KSW?
    You definitely a squirrel now Mr Rathbun!

    Too bad LRH didn’t read your article.

    LRH may have lived much longer if you had been on his lines instead of Miscavige, and if he could be humble enough to listen/read and understand what you just wrote here.

    Great article.

    To illustrate what you say: “Somewhere along the line in the Scientology experience the magic of the technology – each of its efficacious results marked by its adherence to its client-centered philosophic roots – is replaced by inculcation of the client rather than consultation and service of his or her needs, wants, aspirations and purposes.”

    A good friend of mine was talking to one of the last OT VIII completion a few months ago:
    My friend – “So what’s your biggest win after completing OT VIII?”
    New OT VIII – “I realized…. I AM the IAS.”

    That’s the kind of win, we’ll never get here outside the Church.
    Too bad really.

  8. martyrathbun09


  9. Gerhard Waterkamp

    Kind of fitting from the Tao Te Ching:

    When the will to power is in charge
    the higher the ideals, the lower the results.
    Try to make people happy,
    and you lay the groundwork for misery.
    Try to make people moral,
    and you lay the groundwork for vice.

    When the will to power and control to make people moral and happy became the Mantra of Scientology. That was the end of case gain in that organization for me.

  10. Great article Marty.
    I do think that the tech of Scientology (or any tech for that matter) is best served if it aligns with the goals of the person.
    I always cringed a bit on the policy that would say you tell the div 6er what their next service was as they didn’t have enough data to make a decision.
    I do think that some Scientology techniques give unexpected positive results and that a person could miss out on them if he thought they didn’t align with his own goals. I think communication would ultimately handle that though.

  11. Tom Gallagher

    Client-centered techniques and practices are opposite and contrasted to the cult-centered ‘bridge’ which evaluates and lays out ‘what is wrong with you’. “ALL OF YOU!!!!!!!!!!!”

    In the early days, an auditor reached into his toolbox and pulled out those questions (processes) that the client asked to be handled.

    As such Marty, I think this is one of your most far-reaching and important posts to date. Thank you. I mean it.

    I’m sorry I was so testy a couple of posts ago. My driving point was ‘what does the client want handled’. And what are the appropriate tools….

    I’m still exploring if the path of creative processing should have been in fact something called identity processing, even with its new name. John Galusha was an individual who was in a position to help, if not steer, that research line.

    Got the book this afternoon and will read it this weekend.

  12. Marty. Your excellent dissertation is not only wise, it tells me that YOU ARE FREE OF IT. Your OUTSIDE it. Your a Craftsman with many tools. Nice. Happy for you.

  13. and fortunate indeed are those you find the way to your door.

  14. I’ll use this as an example of where I’m coming from and hope it doesn’t offend anyone. I’ll take that chance since I know TR0 has been drilled well here with most .

    Now explain to me what makes any of us think we need to let someone else know that they have achieved or are certain about anything? Much less make a statement as to whether they are one of the “few” “elite” and aware? I get confused . But don’t grab onto that cuz it’s not a deep confusion, more like puzzled. See, to me, it is just that type of activity that played a major part in ruining the purported “salvation” of us all. It was like people waiting with held breaths to hear their Senior tell them “well done”, or even better “very well done.” Or amazingly in auditing, having to hear the Auditor or C/S tell you that you know something now, or you hit a higher plateau of realization about yourself,etc. Who really “needs” that? I’m sincerely asking. For a bunch of Thetans jumping a bandwagon of “I don’t know”, I can understand it to that point. But I just don’t think being part of a large group ever allows you to jump off the bandwagon or you leave behind those you kinda liked being around. And yet they are stifling you at the point you know that you do know and don’t need anyone telling you what you know or don’t know.

    Do you get what I’m saying and asking what yours or anyone else’s point of view is on what I’m talking about?

    Like I said, there is no offense intended or invalidation or eval, etc. I just found that all SO placed themselves on some alleged “elite” list and everyone else was just viewed as a grunt unless they got in SO. At which point most of them still remained nothing but grunts. LOL It’s actually funny when you think about what the purpose of scientology was stated to be when as a spiritual being one does not have to “make it.”

    I realize I’m looking at this from my particular perspective and vantage point, and it most likely wont’ match others. However, others can understand what I’m saying and perhaps care to comment?


    Again you have brilliantly pointed out the obvious – that Scientology tells, demands and forces, leading to slavery, and freedom comes from consulting, asking and guiding. Norton approves.

  16. Because my focus has been on auditing, I have been slow reaching the same conclusion.
    It has far reaching implications for those in the field doing training. The groups that are mimicking Org academy training could achieve better results faster with client centered education. If they embraced online training, they could make even better use of their resources and client time. Many universities find online training works fine.

    I am glad that your practice is flourishing.

  17. “I realized…..I AM the IAS.”

    To me, that’s the equivalent of this OT VIII saying he realized he’s MEST!

  18. martyrathbun09

    Old buddy, old pal ‘o mine.

  19. Tom Gallagher


    Kudos on again being able to summarize “in a breath”.

  20. I thought what you said today was brilliant. I have been out of the church for over a decade now and in that time have taken my own journey of self aware-ness and have now reached a moment when I am finally confident that I am on my own true path to enlightenment. Scientology never gave me that. It only gave me self loathing and fear. Finally after over a decade I have shed that. I can see that you care about the people that you are helping and they, with your help are finding their true paths as well. Congrats!

  21. Mike Eldredge

    Me thinks thou dost protest too much

  22. Tom Gallagher

    Well FireBreathing Frog,

    I can happily report that I didn’t choke on a ham sandwich after reading your post.

    Thank gawd someone dear applied the Heimlich Maneuver.

    (Here’s a link for those unfamiliar: )

  23. So glad to hear once again that you read and understood these great philosophers even before Scientology, and that you can now instruct Marty on how “REAL Scientology was pushed out of the Church before you became involved with the tech.”

    I’d like to hear your results on delivering Scientology tech in the Indie field, as well as your own case and training progress.

    Oh, and it just might seem a tiny bit arrogant for you to instruct a guy who delivers the tech to excellent results, while writing books, running a blog and getting people OUT of the RCS. I really don’t think he needs you to tell him what is NOT Scientology vs. what is REAL Scientology.

    I can predict that you’ll whine that this is an ad hominem attack on you. So, enlighten us all on your recent products (not your wins from the “great missions of the 70’s”) if you want to be viewed as one who has the altitude to teach and correct professionals who actually DO something.

  24. Outstanding post Marty!

    But evolution in Scientology is geared solely toward achievement of goals that do not involve the client’s participation in establishing, except to the extent means are employed to obtain the client’s agreement to pursue them.

    Once this basic idea is accepted by the scientologist, all manner of odd behavior can come about, such as mortgaging his house and handing over 250 thousand dollars to the IAS, or allowing his 12 year-old child to drop out of school and join the Sea Org, or work for free under grueling conditions.

    If we are ever to grow up, we have to learn to plot our own path in life.

  25. This is still one of the biggest questions surrounding Scientology, in my mind. It’s not always easy and there’s a lot of material, but I am gradually finding some satisfying answers.

    Interestingly, Hubbard stated on numerous occasions that he already had the philosophy of Scientology at its highest level right from the beginning, before starting any research. The reason for not presenting it immediately, he said, was that people were too much in agreement with MEST. So, he undertook to develop the pathway towards it in an observable, convincing manner, subject to people’s own responses to its developments.

    It’s quite ambitious to develop a high level development system that’s approachable by practically anybody. But of course, everybody is at a different place spiritually, and that needs to be taken into consideration too.

    I found a reference in the PDC (lecture 54) where he outlines the reasoning for a more personal approach to application, stating that it’s useful and perhaps even necessary to explore as a possibility. In fact, his argument is very strong and certainly not something to just put aside.

    This argument can be extended to helping people apply the tech in ways that are relevant for *them*.

    There’s also a reference (HCOB 26 FEB 1970) where he states unequivocally that any process released in ANY of his books is applicable – so long as it’s done sensibly.

    That reference was made 10 years after he said that creative processing was dropped (due to the occasional problem with people who have difficulties with it). So it looks like he *did* keep the door open to powerful techniques for those who are interested, so long as good judgment is used.

    At the same time, it also shows that you can’t force people onto something that might not be right for them at that time.

    But if a diligent student, after having grounding themselves in the fundamentals, comes to someone for guidance and says “I’ve been studying Creation of Human Ability – do you mind if we go through that one?” – then really, why not? Those processes were given to be used in the right circumstance, and sometimes in a surprisingly modular fashion as well.

    On top of that, there are the numerous talks about the importance of the ancient religious texts, complete with references on where to look – which I’m sure is very helpful for people looking to expand their spiritual understanding further, and perfect if people are feeling locked in. There’s a legitimate precedent for this. He was inspired by those texts, so, they can rightly be recommended for study within the bounds of Scientology.

    In theory – potentially – it’s actually more flexible than a lot of other religion.

    This is particularly the case if you give considerable weighting to the early material.

    I’ve seen some people say “oh, well that’s just early LRH”, but he also made the argument that Scientology is in a privileged position due to the teachings being preserved as a recording. In those lectures, there are processes and spiritual references galore that everybody can hear and use their own judgment on – and nobody can really cancel that out or start changing the goal posts.

    It’s there, he knew it would be there for posterity and mulled over in generations to come, and all that before he even hit “record”.

  26. Several people I know have observed that while almost everyone has great wins on the lower Bridge, results are much more mixed on the OT levels. Much of the lower Bridge involves running items originated by the PC, whereas the OT levels are standard for everyone. Marty, your post validates that observation and takes it to another plateau altogether. Moving on up a little higher, indeed.

  27. Moving on up a LOT higher!

    Another excellent summary! Thanks!

  28. Nice, very nice

  29. I just finished your recommended reading by Rogers, On becoming a person. There was the positive non- evaluated therapy as in Scientology. There was a big difference though. Carl Rogers was very humble. He checked using tests with controls, to see if the therapy was effective. Those characteristics were missing in LRH. The client centered therapy turned out to be very effective, just as it was in Scientology for me. Thanks Marty for your reading direction.

  30. Snoopy's Uncle

    It is very interesting, how one can have some ideas and tries to formulate them and does, yet often feels that poorly, or have some feelings and has difficulties to express them properly or these feelings are vague and one cannot put his fingers on them. But then comes Marty and does it with ease. Thank you.

  31. A tad beyond nasty Mr Marston. Ugh.

  32. I hate to tell you this, but those negatives were and are part of REAL Scientology, as crafted by L. Ron Hubbard, over several decades.

    The mixture of truths and lies, stirred well, makes one heck of a sticky paste.

    Once a person steps into it, extricating himself from that sticky paste of sometimes brilliant truths, and also lies, misdirection, and just plain madness, does take time.

  33. nojokin8, I think that you took Marty’s comment as serious when he meant to be ironic about Warren Marston achieving an “elite and aware status”.

  34. Interesting post. I noticed the same. When I was talking to friends and family who are also all outside the system what went wrong they came up with “I wanted to find out someting about me”, “I wanted to handle a problem I had with …”, “I wanted to expand my abilities” etc. and then it turned to “I was suddenly told what to think or do and had the same bullshit in that church like anywhere else. I could not think for myself anymore and say what I want.” It sums it up. One can call it Ridge on the Bridge, Squirrel, Mindfuck, Brainwash, Invalidation, Evaluation … whatever. At the end it is „a person or group tries to control the thinking and being and doing of another person in a way they think it should be“ which is not working on people who are able to think for themselves and are of age. It’s not working to patronize people, to treat them like a child.

  35. Roger From Switzerrland Thought

    LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  36. Roger From Switzerrland Thought

    My God !
    This is just funny !

  37. Roger From Switzerrland Thought

    For 34 years I kept repeating to any C/s /Auditor /Reg/E.O/ Friend/ that the wins I’d in Auditing were nice, but that the primary thing I wanted to talk about wasn’t handled ! No Auditor was ready to listen to what I wanted to tell, they stopped me and made a process on it or whatever ! it was quite confusing !!!

    Marty was then the first auditor who just listened to it and said ” Thank you for telling me !” and the whole thing was handled ! Took just some minutes !
    He didn’t interrupt or wanted to do a C/S or whatever the tech is !

    Why do auditors not listen to the PC ?????????

  38. martyrathbun09

    Yes. That repeating caveat along the lines of, ‘here is what we have found to be the case, I hope that it will be test, validated, and where possible, improved’, really impressed me.

  39. Kathy (Reed, Bagley) Orem

    Well, for me the magic of the technology started in 1968 and never left..In a lot of ways it was a rough ride but I am a stronger and better person from the auditing and training I had. I was able to keep my client centered viewpoint and won and gained from auditing others. Partly thanks to you I intend to keep right on winning and gaining and helping others become stronger along their own purposes.

  40. FireBreathing Frog

    Since I know this new OT VIII for 30 years, I’m afraid I dont see much fun in this.
    This man was a good guy when he started.
    He is now cover with debt, owning more than 300.000 euros to the taxe office. He can be bankrupt any day, may be go to jail if they found out what he did with the money.
    But hey, that’s “the greatest good for the great number!”
    Or may be he thinks, he’s buying his place in heaven.

    In France, The “Church” has been condemned for “escroquerie en bande organisée” (organized fraud) – and they are still busy at it.
    “There’s a lady who’s sure all that glitters is gold
    “And she’s buying a stairway to heaven.

    “Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run
    “There’s still time to change the road you’re on.
    “And it makes me wonder.”
    – Led Zep – “Stairway To Heaven”

  41. Moneca Ryane

    Very well stated and ‘oh so true’. For me to move up, I had to shuck 90% of Scio indoctrination, peel the layers of eval, inval, judgement and supposed rightness of Scio precepts. My wins from auditing I kept, a handful of basics and truisims about the universe, I kept. I recognized the box that Scio was and is. To be truly free one is not in a box, he/she is in the moment, free of both past and future bank/ego manifestations. All the time recognizing that a spirit/thetan is quantum in nature and the moment you observe anything it changes.

    To me one of the greatest truths of Scio, is that life is a gamethat we are creating and mocking up moment to moment. So I ask myself what do I choose today, taking responsibility for ALL of it. Good, bad and neutral and all the subtleties in between. Do I know it all NO,, but I am always open to learning.

    Thanks Marty for always sharing your journey so honestly During the last year or so of reading your blog, I have shed a few more layers of charge and recognized various things about myself. Things I had take on as an operating basis, that no really no longer serve me. I have never had any counseling from you, one on one, but your blog for me as been a huge intensive.

  42. Ever been thrown overboard ?

  43. FireBreathing Frog

    You so right.
    MEST and money is glorified today in CC Paris.
    Want another sad story?
    One of the most “upstats” scientologist lives in the posh quarter of Paris, because, and I quote: “he prefer to have his kids going to a school where parents make more than 50G’s a month instead of 5000.”
    First of all, not everyone earn 5000 euros here, even in Paris.
    And what about them?
    They are considered the scum bags, the DB’s, the downstats, etc. etc.
    Scientology is not for them anymore. They can’t afford it.

    Marty is giving back real Scientology to everyone – at least the 98% in search of real spiritual awareness and freedom.
    The 2% left inside the “Church” are the elite, the superior race, the “only one” who can save this planet, while considering money can buy everything.

    God, where is my Church?

  44. FireBreathing Frog

    Because they are told to: “Look, don’t listen!”
    “Look at Missssterrrr Miscavige.”
    “Look at this Beauuuutiifuuuuuuuuul Ideal Org.”
    “Can’t you see we are the moooosst expanding church on earth?”
    Don’t listen to the enemies.
    Don’t listen to the SP, the Wogs,
    Don’t read newspapers, the internet,
    Don’t listen to anyone.
    Then you will be safe.

  45. You say “The LRH quote you cite from the Class 8 tapes was referring to the general public, not the aware elite who reach for Scientology”
    Do you hear yourself? THIS is what will destroy Scientology in the end.
    This Egoic Idolatry that permeates this thought process. Being in this religion doesn’t make you better or special no matter what Ron has told you. THIS “better” and “superior” attitude is all BS and will not stand in our civilization as we all become more evolved…Down the road this will be considered barbaric behavior.

  46. gretchen dewire

    I read on becoming a oerson by Carl Rogers and got a lot out of it. Tom Ganagher, I have also read the idenics book by Mike Goldstein. Idenics is definitely client centered. The “therapist” is hardly even there, If you go to the idenics web site and see managed access and enter veteran and then interested you will get a section written just for scientologists or ex scientologists. There is some interesting history too about John Galusha and LRH.

  47. FireBreathing Frog

    Hello Marty,
    If Scientology means “knowing how to know”, you have help me tremendously to understand the subject and what went wrong.
    In the Church, it has turn into “knowing what we want you to know.”
    I will be coming to USA within the next 3 to 4 months.
    I will be in comm to find out what I need to do to visit you, for a short visit or may be few days.
    Your blog has answer so many questions for me, no doubt a little chat will be worth a million time the trip to USA.

  48. Roger from Switzerland Thought

    Yeah, you’re right. It’s really sad .
    If you would tell it as a joke, everybody would laugh !

  49. Roger from Switzerland Thought

    You know, It makes lot of sense ! You could add to it :
    don’t listen to the pc, it’s just bank !

  50. Zeroing in on the exact needs of the pc is what we used to do
    in the 70’s with Life Repair. It could take hours to just interview
    the “client” on the meter and then some penetrating, to the point
    C/S-ing to handle what he or she was sitting in with some easy
    to execute processes and bang! the pc was blown out. And
    actually this usually handled their life ruin.
    We used to handle the most “impossible” cases and weirdest
    hangups some of these people had. Worked fantastically well.
    Possibly in most cases we should have just let them go after
    that but then came the mandatory climbing up the grade chart.
    Personally, I never wanted any more auditing after the first
    action I had on the Bridge but because I had paid for it, I had
    to be rammed through all these grades and levels.
    What did Ron say? “Handle the pc in front of you”.
    I am glad Marty that you apply your knowledge to really help
    these people, not some imaginary mock up of what you think
    they should be or think.

  51. Irrespective of the fact that much of the technology such methods sought to impart was geared towards bringing a person to self-determined understandings, that system of indoctrination ultimately implants fixed, subjective ideas about living, God and ultimate spiritual concerns.
    Working with you (with your client-centered approach) made this very clear to me and my awareness has expanded to view things as my own – or not. Is this reality one from indoctrination or one that I came to perceive from my own experiences?
    This has truly freed me from the box of the Scientology construct and I am experiencing greater/larger/more dynamic/more permeating/more “real” beingness from it that I’m observing in my exchanges with my kids, my man, my friends, my neighbors, my animals, plants, even my vehicle… Doing some very cool, very spiritial LRH processes that very much expanded my awareness and validated me as a spiritual being and my connection to/with other beings helped too.
    Shedding the labels of OT level this or that and losing the desire to “be” this OT level or that – since those labels actually constricted me because they were defined and limited – has gotten rid of some idea that I couldn’t experience these great “OT” awarenesses I actually do have because I’m not labeled as such. (And seeing just how “OT” many beings are who never heard a peep of LRH; far happier, healthier, loving, dynamic beings than (sad to say) any OT8 or OTblahblah I knew in the church.)
    I thank you for being client-centered. Otherwise, if you’d just plopped me on “the route” where I was “supposed to be” I would still be constricted and limited and inside that box.

  52. martyrathbun09

    Thanks for sharing that Tara. You just supplied me with some deep, undefinable spiritual-like momentum.

  53. martyrathbun09

    Thanks for bringing that up. Lost technology, that is. We’ve had several folks come, engage in exactly that, then go and evolve happily as they see fit. Doing admirably each. All know they are welcome to return should that ever seem fit, too.

  54. martyrathbun09

    I look forward to it.

  55. Emilie—-I also had something to say re Marty’s comment to Warren. So you’re speaking for Marty saying he meant it to be “ironic”. Really? Well, considering he doesn’t say much, when Marty does say something…a suggestion from the peanut gallery is say what you mean, mean what you say. Irony, as you see, can get very misunderstood when on a chat board, web site, etc. I learned that lesson after years of posting on the Net, “fighting” with no doubt peeps run by OSA ops. Marty did post my 26 step program from 2006 which I appreciate. I hope one day he continues to post more programs of others, as well as fills in many dark spaces of WTF happened then? Please never forget many people’s healing rests with other’s filling in the blanks they’ve lived with for years. My view re anyone who was “in” C of $ is in order for each of us to heal fully, we need to fill in the blanks we were a part of. I’ve spent 13 years, thousands of posts and over 600 videos doing just that, and still at it. Good luck on your adventure, Marty. I’m happy to see you are finding new roads to stroll down. My Best to ALL, Tory/Magoo

  56. So Basicly you are part of the group Hubbard warned people about.


  57. Marty ~~
    I think you will find it interesting that Geir Isene came to so many of the identical conclusions independently. We just posted it on YouTUBE

  58. martyrathbun09

    Thanks Tory. If you couldn’t detect the irony, sorry.

  59. Hi rainbodhi,

    It’s really interesting to hear the interpretations of LRH materials by a person (you) who has never been in Scientology. You have neither the closed-mindedness of a brainwashed true believer, nor the closed-mindedness (to whatever degree) of those who have recognized the abuse and personally experienced it. Many of the latter probably range from being embittered in only a slight degree to those who are rabid critics. Thanks much for your input!


  60. +1 (except I started in 1978 :))

  61. I missed it. 🙂 Should have known though cuz ususally I don’t feel compelled to blabber. LMAO Thanks much Emilie.

  62. Tom Gallagher


    Thanks for posting this interview with Geir It has become my conclusion that Scientology Inc. is more than likely, if not in fact, an identity trap via the ‘bridge to total freedom’ slogan and its marketing apparatus.

    Identities and all the BS held onto and associated with that stuff that isn’t even relevant to an immortal spiritual being is what creates stuck flows and other associated undesirable phenomena.

    Perhaps others can elucidate on that thought.

    In the mean time I’ve read, today, a book that was based on the research and conclusions of one the early if not the earliest research auditors through the ’50’s, John Galusha. The biggest problem he created was one of financial viability because the client’s concerns were handled so quickly. What a pleasant conundrum unless one is focused purely on liquid income.

  63. Tom Gallagher

  64. Warren Marston


  65. I really enjoy the viewpoints and new understandings from your posts. The clean intention to merely help another is what comes across when one assumes the viewpoint centered around the person you are helping. Thanks. I believe that allows the basic goodness in all to come into the light of awareness and the results of that enlightenment is a being doing better in their life.

    “Keep your face to the sunshine and you cannot see a shadow.
    — Helen Keller —

  66. I’m coming in late on the chain, literally, here, but did want to comment on Warren M’s post. He says “…not the aware elite who reach for Scientology. ”
    This attitude of “we are better than those poor slobs out there.” and “we are the only ones who can save the planet and this sector…” and “Scientologists are the upper 10th of the upper 10 percent of the population…” these statements make me cringe. This is what is harming the Scn religion and the perception of Scns in the world at large. How can you truly have ARC for someone if you look at yourself as so much better than they and think that you are on such a much higher plane than they are? Since I left the church I have found “mere wogs” that are heads and tails above the “elite Scientologists” in terms of activity level, doingness level, ability to get products, being financially stable, acting ethically, having good marriages, and having the quality of mercy and a willingness to help their fellow men, and an attitude of “how can I help you?” or at the very least, “we are equal.” I don’t find these good qualities in many of the corporate sheeples, no matter how high on the Bridge they are! And even some of the Indies still hold onto these arrogant and condescending attitudes. I am trying to shed that attitude as fast as I can, and that is one way I can contribute to helping the people on the planet…. by having ARC for them all as worthy people who are my equals and are not beneath me.

  67. Hi Marildi,

    Thanks, it’s a pleasure to get a response from you. 🙂

    I just don’t think there’s been very much independent appraisal from other sources and spiritual seekers; the closest would be some of what’s in the Freezone, but again there’s already been an involvement there.

    I have studied spiritual philosophies for a number of years now, and over time have acquired some understanding of their various principles. Scientology isn’t really that far out of the way, which is not to say it isn’t unique.

    To many people, Scientology is a fabrication based upon taking this and that from here and there. The problem with such a view is that it doesn’t necessarily take into account the idea of universal truth.

    At least LRH had a degree of understanding of, and affinity for, ancient spiritual and philosophical texts. But he wanted to set himself apart from those traditions; he had his own views of what was and wasn’t applicable in his approach.

    For instance, he says that the purpose of the chakra system is Theta Clearing (Phoenix Lectures, lecture 5). But to my knowledge, he never directly integrated that system into Scientology – a very strong decision in some ways. However, he did discuss how to work with energy flows and fields.

    In contrast, many other religions caution practitioners against studying or making comparisons with other spiritual traditions. If they start doing so, they might be ousted or even condemned to damnation.

    I do see that this has gradually been happening in Scientology as well, but this is not in line with the early foundational lectures.

    I think that anybody who has experienced abuse and oppression has a right to feel poorly treated and should by all means identify where the problems are coming from, and speak out.

    It’s clear that the stringency and extremism that has dominated Scientology needs to be relaxed in order for it to provide genuine spiritual results in the future. I think there’s a case for a more progressive approach that can still be called “Scientology”, by finding the most inclusive view that Hubbard taught *at some stage* and applying it.

  68. There is this viewpoint that you have to join the SO to help
    mankind, or join staff to help your town or city (clear Tim-
    buktu). Scientology is NOT a fourth (4th) dynamic activity,
    nor a 3rd dynamic help flow. It is a (and has become)
    …….. . You fill in the blank. I cannot as I do not want to
    use too many expletives on this beautiful blog.
    If you have a 4th Dynamic ruin, go and do something
    other than joining this church.

  69. a little philosophical stirring in England

  70. Great post Marty! It’s an instant favorite for me. Thank you.

  71. Thank you for this post Marty.
    Your views you have been introducing us to have helped enormously.
    The thought of having a counselor who has openly explored so many paths and managed to glean out the truth in them and is willing to share as you are is rare and I feel most fortunate to have stumbled across your blog 3 years ago.

    Yesterday, I found that my daughter (who resides in TX) spent the weekend in LA (with no visit to me) getting black PR handling most likely by sitting her down and having her watch most of the ‘Who is….?” sites. Her dad is in the SO. She was told to choose between him and me – huh? And if it’s me then with dad goes her spiritual freedom. Huh?
    I was hoping she would see through this it’s so insane it’s humorous …when I can stay exterior enough from it.

    I was hoping that having been trained as a classed auditor she would be comfortable enough with her self to pay attention when Ron says look for your self.
    But we already know the church cannot trust us each to do that on our own even when that is what many of us loved about Scientology, the waking up and knowing you are an eternal being, that you have the ability to change your considerations and that there is technology to assist you in bettering yourself and then to help others.
    I honestly don’t yet understand how exactly this evolved so haywire but I’m working on it. And with the Data Series and confidence in my own observations, I will know.

    This is of course heartbreaking. She was born in the SO. I was several months already pregnant when the rule of no more children in the SO came out. She was born June 1985. So now she is 28 and 8 months pregnant with my first grandchild. She has asked me to come to help with the birth and care. But that’s a maybe. I have high hopes she will see through this and see the insanity for what it is.

    Without the last 6 months of spiritual healing ~ I’d probably just be sitting in some bar somewhere 🙂
    I’m actually doing very well considering.
    I also can see more clearly why the church is so under attack. What is a mother to do?

    Thank you.

  72. Nice Jane:
    “and that is one way I can contribute to helping the people on the planet…. by having ARC for them all as worthy people who are my equals and are not beneath me.”
    The truly really sad point is a person that has placed them self in this position (for whatever reason) has a real hard time looking down. Ron spoke of being ‘up the pole’. This is exactly what I thought he was talking about.
    It has happened with the entire church!

  73. I think this is your best post ever!

    Way back in the early days of ESMB in 2007 There was a poster whose
    posts I liked very much. Sadly he was in hospital with terminal illness. I asked him
    to give his viewpoint on our subject. I believe I was the last person he
    communicated to via the net. He also was prepared to look outside
    the box.

    I asked:-

    “Maybe you would like to post your viewpoint in detail. ”

    His reply:-

    My big fat pompous final words (Part 1)

    I’m flattered. I think I can briefly sum up what I believe that might be of some value.

    Scientology is about Theta-MEST theory and what tools might exist to help illuminate this. There are forays into diet advice, organizational notions, and political punditry, etc., but they aren’t essential. The main thing to know about theta-MEST is that they are chalk and cheese. Any correct explanation of how they manage to have anything whatsoever to do with one another is pure gold.

    MEST is a completely understandable topic. Isaac Newton did an amazing job of defining physics in his basic physics text. He said “I make no hypothesii”, meaning he did not resort to qualitative indwelling character traits of matter to explain it, as the Greeks did. Instead he said every perceptible difference in the world around you is due to differing motions. Full stop, period, end of sentence. This statement sums up all of physics, and once the basic unit of analysis, momentum (mv) is defined, everything in physics is commentary on or elaborate surmises from a few basic statements about momentum. This idea withstands even the most cutting edge search into subatomic physics, in which each little particle is eventually describable by the type of wiggling it does and the type of other wiggles it bounces off of or ignores, to the most far out cosmological suspicion. It’s all about the motion. Solid is a state of matter where atoms can only rotate a little bit and can’t swap abutting neighbors easily, liquid a state where they can rotate freely all they please and swap neighbors but must abut a neighbor, gas includes as well being as near or far to your neighbor as you like. If we encounter solid, liquid and gaseous things, their motional traits are what make them this. Red light is a complete electromagnetic wiggle in a different length than blue light, etc., It’s all different motions giving differences in perceptible things. For a complete scheme of description you of course need space-time and matter/mass has to exist to resist some motional influence, otherwise every urge to move would be identical as unopposed by anything of helpfully distinguishing mass.

    Theta is a vaster topic. Thetans are potentially infinitely creative. One of the things thetans create are analogues to MEST: theta “space”, theta “time”, and impulses of change akin to energy and resistances to change akin to matter. These analogues are how chalk and cheese manage to merge. We can have location in space by creating a theta space concept, we can have a location in time by creating a theta correlate to sequence, we can be solid or not by postulating something other than pure postulate as impetus to or resistance of some change, etc. Spacation processes eventually rub our nose in the fact that theta space exists and is merely an analogue to MEST space (and probably is the only real reason for creating a theta “space” at all), time inspection processes (recall) rub our noses in the fact that theta sequencing exists and bears some relationship to our participation in illusory MEST time, start-change-stop processes rub our noses in the fact that theta correlates to impulse and resistance other than pure postulate can be made and tie into MEST impulse (energy) and resistance (mass). Basically, by rubbing someone’s nose in how the chalk and cheese do a complex mimicking dance orchestrated from the theta side, in a polite way preferably, we eventually wind up more aware of theta issues and options. Time inspection processes seem particularly valuable in all of this as they decode clues to personas or identities other than true identity, and those identities are usually the bundle that keeps a theta side controlling construct in sync or tangled up in a MEST side reality. I “am” what I use to pretend to have space at some time with some junk in tow – that sort of process seems to do double or triple duty.

    There are, of course, elaborate specifics of how to do spacation, time inspection, and SCS, and plenty to know about the tools used to sort out the illusion of which realm is which. But the essence of the matter is “spot some theta constructs pretending to be like MEST constructs”, and further, “locate identities you use to keep the two confused”. I think that sums up the useful part of Scientology, of which spoon feedable baby steps towards this basic simplicity are often necessary and so many elaborations on how to do this can be useful. No one wants to be told too hastily that the part they rehearsed for has been written out of the script for tonight’s performance. May as well break it to them gently.

    If I were inclined to comment on even more subsidiary matters, I suppose I would talk at length about Ron’s obsession with implants and how they make up an ideology most of all. R’s implant ideology is kind of like a labor-management ideology, and he seems fascinated by all the permutations of how the struggle can play out. All I’d have to say about the matter is this: it is all ritual. Whether you inject someone with glycol and nuke them, zap them with weird electronics, or merely implant them by clever word games intended to cause them frustration and rage, it is all ritual. A pinch of mystery, a dash of permission to wear the funny hat like the rest of us, a bit of glorious drama. You either get to wear the funny hat and be one of the oppressors or refused the funny hat and have to be oppressed, but only the power of willingly living by the ritual matters in this. There are no MEST things capable of trapping or altering theta, only theta constructs meant to mimic or mirror MEST that can be created and the illusion sustained by protecting those constructs by means of illusory identities. Why R kept up with his implant ideology obsession after these issues were made clear to him, as they indeed did become clear to him, is a puzzle. Maybe he found these the funnest games of all, most suited to satisfying his desire for hazard and challenge to overcome and boast about overcoming. Meh. I think he did come to the understanding that whether you nuke someone a la OTIII or ask them to wear a membership button on a lapel as an implant technique, it is really all the same, it is ritual in the games tradition, but it slipped from his mind from time to time. No one is perfect. It really was his one big source of error, though, in that he often went about trying to dream up ways that MEST constructs trap theta, which is impossible – therefore counterproductive to yak on about. Perhaps he had a scarcity issue about personas and so clung desperately to an ideology of interthetan struggle that offered the most drama and threat or menace to be bested by joining up on his side with his prescribed funny hat and handshake.

    Of course another subsidiary topic would be identities, personas, and the like. Personas exist to play a game. Sure there’s plenty to say about that, but I think everyone is better off discovering their own commentary upon this really rather than relying on someone else’s commentary on why games should be played. Only the actual player knows why he is in the game.

    My big fat pompous final words (Part 2)

    Perhaps a final major theme as a subsidiary topic is that there probably is indeed a chain of being with some people playing superior controlling spiritual roles and others playing inferior controlled tangled-up-in apparently nontheta realms (well someone has to create them, but no one has to pretend to own them thereafter, eh?). Whether one follows R’s which often mimics Egyptian Gnosticism or follows others found in various independent constructs, etc., is all a matter of consulting a particular Baadeker (spelling?) and the real task is to go out and scout out who is where in existence. That he seemed to believe in a real chain of being above and below meat body dwellers seems clear when looking carefully, yet he mostly treated the higher realms of being with some silence.

    There’s one trap in all of this I can see. One can arrive at the proud announcement of having figured out 100% of how a thetan gets himself tangled up in MEST. This is an alluring lie that can keep one tangled up, because thetans are infintely creative. You always have to find 101% of the ways it can be done, but that’s a contradiction. Someone will always have ways to invent theta space that are new and allow getting balled up nicely into MEST, someone will always invent new games and personas to allow one to pretend one doesn’t own and control the playing field, etc. Thetans are infinitely creative, so never settle on the “100% answered” answer. This is the big mistake I think nonScientology practices make: it is ALL known in the Book of the Dead, or in the Chakra/Godheads construct, or in this or that explanation. Thetans are infinitely creative.

    Theta-MEST theory is main street, personas and games that allow theta-MEST mirroring constructs are the town square on main street, and “thetans are infinitely creative so never settle on one all inclusive definitive answer” is the atop the speaker’s podium in the square.

    That’s my survey of the subject.

    Nice chatting with you.

  74. Jane Doe, you said it all very well. For years while on a foundation staff schedule I worked a sales job during the day. Most of my clients were bright, hard-working, ethical professionals. Then I’d go to my post in the evenings to work with at least a few rather degraded staff members who considered themselves the best of the best, simply because they were staff. They regularly spoke condescendingly about “Wogs” while their own levels of production were far inferior to these people who maintained jobs and financial health and kept their dynamics in alignment.

    To claim that Scientologists, whether RCS or Indie, are more “elite and aware” as Warren Marston stated above is true arrogance.

  75. Oh, so HE is the IAS? He owes me some money!

  76. Exactly, Tom! The creation of the cookie-cutter Bridge was the beginning of the end of Scientology as a major contribution to humanity. Overemphasis on Ethics and creation of the Sea Org slammed the door shut to any possibility of a come-back. David Miscavige was just a logical result, a disaster that was bound to happen with such a certainty that it actually struck BEFORE LRH even left the scene.

  77. Marty

    That was beautifully said.

    From the start, when I got into Scientology, I really didn’t have any “wants handled ” items. I was not there for the personal help. I was there for two other reasons.

    First of all, I was there to learn any “truths” that Scientology may have that would be of value in my life.

    Second, I found that I could help others. This became my purpose. After completing the Communication Course, and with no other training, I became the Communication Course Supervisor. I found that through helping people gain the abilities and skills available through the training on that course, they could then proceed to change their lives.

    I continued to gravitate toward training others, rather than being an auditor, because I always wanted to help supply people with the tools to make their own way. With the right tools, and with sensible application, one could create whatever future they chose.

    But one can be left with wondering, “But what future would I like to create?”, and, “How do I get there from here?”.

    That lead to the second area that I gravitated toward, Ethics. Ethics (as in personal ethics) is more tools. The particular value of Ethics tools, is that, with them one can evaluate their own priorities within their own concept of honor and integrity.

    But there is that concept “evaluate” that comes in there. How does one go about doing that?

    And so Data Analysis, Data Evaluation, Why Finding, and Admin Scales come into play.

    More tools. The first three assist one in figuring out what one needs to address and “handle” in order to move closer to their “ideal” future. An Admin Scale is a map to that future.

    But accurate evaluation depends upon accurate data.

    And, for me, this is where auditing comes in. Auditing helps one uncover the actuality of past,and present situations, by releasing one from aberrations that previously prevented him from observing accurately. For me, that is the true value of auditing. For best results it needs to align with what the being himself is trying to achieve at any given point.

    And the gains of auditing are totally dependent on a being’s ability to “confront”. To be there and observe what one is observing.

    And we have come full circle back to some of the exercises (drills) found on the Communication Course.

    These things are all intimately entwined, and I have found that only a very personal approach, that uses the correct tools at the correct time, is very successful at truly helping a being to “move on up a little higher”.


  78. Hi again rainbodhi,

    You express so well your understanding of the early foundational lectures and books, and I agree with what you write. As far as independent appraisals go, the religious scholar James R. Lewis wrote an academic article which is apparently “forthcoming in 2013 in the journal Alternative Spirituality and Religion Review.” The draft of it was posted about a month ago by Terril Park on ESMB and I think you will find it very interesting reading. Here’s a short excerpt:

    “Based on current trends…the overall picture is that CoS’s decline will continue – whether quickly or gradually – while independent Scientology will grow. The Free Zone in Northern and Eastern Europe already produces many more auditors per annum than the Church, while growing primarily by recruiting new members from the general population rather than from among disenchanted ex-CoS members. And while Dror Center has thus far been the only Mission to declare independence during the present cycle of defections, the incidence of such schisms might multiply as the current crisis continues to weaken member perception of the legitimacy of Church leadership.”

    Also, I just now googled and found Lewis has written quite a few other articles and also chapters about Scientology in some of his books.

    Hugh Urban is another religious scholar who has written about Scn, which you might also want to look into. I plan to do so myself but these days I’m pretty busy with work commitments and don’t have much time for other things. Maybe I’ll even be reading a book written by you one day. 😉

  79. +1
    LRH himself explained it in False Data Stripping. Seems to me like he practiced the bad as well as the good.

  80. “LRH may have lived much longer if you had been on his lines instead of Miscavige …”
    He would have definitely lived much longer had he not betrayed his wife and kept her by her side.

  81. Is this guy’s comment not just as judgmental as Marston’s?

    I have no particular desire to defend Marston; I’m just having a problem seeing what’s so objectionable about what he said – which, if I got it right, was that he’d read some of these works Marty referenced prior to finding Scientology, and then found their key points contained within Scientology tech as it was practiced at that time. I’m not seeing the negativity. Marston seems to just be giving his viewpoint of what Scientology was like prior to DM or whenever. Did I miss something?

    Yet Mr. B. Volta accuses Hubbard of lies, misdirection and “just plain madness” and no one seems to have a problem with it.

    What the hell, I went exterior on acid before finding Scientology. After I started Scientology, I went exterior in one of my very first sessions. I much preferred the exteriorization I got from auditing to the one from acid and so I decided not to do acid anymore. Does that statement make me a judgmental hypocrite?

  82. martyrathbun09

    You never read the comment. I’ve clipped Volta a number of times and he’s thanked me. Marston, applies Scientology attack at any cost so as to remain at perpetual hallucinatory cause. Yes, rejected as judgmental, false, misleading, and far, far too low toned for this forum.

  83. martyrathbun09

    By the by, do you have any coherent thoughts about the post at issue?

  84. Marty, this was the key thing that I personally got from your blog post:

    “That is, the degree to which Scientology departs from its client-centered philosophical and technical roots is proportional to the degree it harms rather than helps.”

    And honestly, I got that same basic idea from Warren’s original post! He may have committed a faux pax on a blog of mostly former Scientologists by using the word “elite”, since that notion about Scientologists has been taken to an ugly extreme by the CoS. However, the word only means “the best of a group”, and when LRH first made a statement to the effect that those who reached for Scientology were above the average, it seems to me there was truth to that.

    In any case, my observations is that posters here are normally allowed to express their opinion so I was dismayed by Warren was put down by several people for stating his, which wasn’t anything horrific, IMO. Actually, the response seemed like something that would happen in the CoS itself when a person makes the “mistake” of expressing a viewpoint that is in not in agreement with the general concensus.

    I thought Publius made some valid points and I applaud him for speaking up. I myself had wanted to but didn’t know how to go about it.

    As for Warren’s comments that were censored, obviously I don’t know what they were and I assume they were in a whole different category or I don’t think you would have censored them. Under the circumstances, he probably lost his cool, which he shouldn’t have.

  85. Marildi,

    I’ve been reading the materials that you linked me to – I’m glad that they exist! Hopefully in years to come, there will be many more scholarly works, particularly in the field of comparative religion.

    There’s been a rise in popularity of the New Age, Wicca and Paganism (all having their roots in something older), as well as ancient traditions of Kabbalah and Tantra becoming more accessible and open for genuine seekers.

    I think that Scientology also has a viable approach, in its most fundamental meaning. If held to that, any part of the aforementioned body of knowledge is also potentially valid, yet doesn’t require belief or faith unless or until one has developed an experience or inner certainty about it.

    In such a case, the “out there” content, though able to freely exist in the field, can never become a narrative which has the power to be held over people’s heads. Since that was unfortunately allowed to occur, the focus was shifted from the original intent as being a total discovery of one’s inner being – and off into the realm of hysteria.

    In relation to the quote you posted – it is interesting times in the sense of there being a growing independent community. But the indies are certainly not immune from the same sorts of problems arising in the future.

    Looking at what happened with the Protestant reformation, even though they observed and broke away from serious problems within the Catholic church, they still carried a lot of conditioning that was present from the times of the early councils in a way that was very unbalanced and unaccommodating – much more so than what the original scriptures would permit. This at times has resulted in more pernicious doctrines and attitudes than ever before.

    It’s really a big question as to how Scientology will fare when it’s practiced by intelligent individuals completely outside the “emergency zone” and absent of abuse. But there are many possibilities, and I hope for the best.

  86. “A client-centered educator does not preach and teach as much as find out and only then guide.”
    This is exactly how my therapist proceeds. I find it very efficient.

    I have two (for me) big, big questions:

    1) Is it possible to do the Scientology Bridge outside of the corporate structure without the purif? Or am I “doomed” if I don’t believe doing the purif will help me or be a good idea, healthwise?

    2) Is the simplicity you convey available elsewhere? I know someone at Ron’s Org and my mind boggles at the complexity. I don’t have any desire for complicated intricacies.

  87. FireBreathing Frog

    Good point.
    I have lot of admiration for LRH, all due to the great win I got with his tech, but I see him a little bit know best and arrogant sometime.
    I dont think he could ever accept sensible advices that would contradict his words or writings.
    I doubt he could ever says: “I was wrong.”
    You right, only MarieSue could have positive impact and guidance.
    Left her going to jail saying he didnt have anything to do with the “squirel GO”. What a shame.
    I still wonder where LRH is right now.
    If Ron told Mayo he will be back after 25 years, I’d like to know when?
    I don’t think LRH left his body in such shape he was ready to clear another planet on his own. I believe he passed with the feeling he made something wrong and didn’t achieved what he wanted to.
    I guess he could have benefited from the incredible tech he wrote for others.
    But where is he now, 27 years after.
    Did he started another life and doesn’t want anything to do with all this?
    Is he trying to learn what he did wrong and read this blog every days?
    Will he be back tomorrow? In 10 or 20 years when he got all sorted out?
    Or is he just playing somewhere, enjoying life to the max?
    Any OT around in comm with LRH?

    PS: Sorry to ask, Mr Miscavige is probably the only one on top of the bridge and OT enuf to be in comm with LRH everyday and still daily reporting how the clearing of earth is all under control so he does not have to come back.
    I wonder when Miscav. Is gonna come on stage saying “I just attested OT 1254 and I want to read to you the last commendation I got from LRH just yesterday.”

  88. FireBreathing Frog

    Keep talking you two.
    It,s Interesting read.

  89. Cece, that is heartbreaking and I really feel you!
    There has to be a way of handling this and interestingly enough
    it could be to use LRH’s PTS/SP tech. Have her use “good
    roads, fair weather” on her SO-member dad. Of course then
    not meaning and saying he is an SP. It does not have to be
    obvious or even deviously underhanded. What did Jesus say?
    “Give to Rome…”.
    Really hope this makes sense to you. Yes, it looks a bit too
    simple of a handling but then again most solutions are.

  90. “… the degree to which Scientology departs from its client-centered philosophical and technical roots is proportional to the degree it harms rather than helps.”

    The thin red line in scientology?

    I would argue that finding it and accepting it is crucial in one’s recovery from the cult.

    And I would also argue that you have been the most effective to date in restoring balance to a subject that is almost impossible to reconcile.

    If you can accomplish this with the subject of scientology I can’t help but wonder what else you could help resolve in this world?😉

  91. martyrathbun09

    a- Yes.
    b- Depends. If you email me more particulars on what you are interested in I might be able to direct you.

  92. martyrathbun09

    Warren is trolling.

  93. Superb post, Marty.

    Here is an excerpt of an essay William S. Burroughs wrote about scientology 40 years ago. It aligns with Marty’s last book and recent posts. Burroughs was a scientologist in the 60’s and left in 1970.

    “In view of the fact that my articles and statements on Scientology may have influenced young people to associate themselves with the so called Church of Scientology, I feel an obligation to make my present views on the subject quite clear…”

    “…Some of the techniques are highly valuable and warrant further study and experimentation. The E Meter is a useful device … (many variations of this instrument are possible). On the other hand I am in flat disagreement with the organizational policy. No body of knowledge needs an organizational policy. Organizational policy can only impede the advancement of knowledge. There is a basic incompatibility between any organization and freedom of thought. Suppose Newton had founded a Church of Newtonian Physics and refused to show his formula to anyone who doubted the tenets of Newtonian Physics? All organizations create organizational necessities. It is precisely organizational necessities that have prevented Scientology from obtaining the serious consideration merited by the importance of Mr. Hubbard’s discoveries. Scientologists are not prepared to accept intelligent and sometimes critical evaluation. They demand unquestioning acceptance.”

    There is more at the following link:

  94. In reality, I doubt that dm has had even ruds run on him in the last 45 years. The guy is a total loon, and I do need see him agree to go on the meter. Especially since he broke the sanctity of the PC folders.

  95. martyrathbun09

    Thanks for that reference.

  96. “However, the word only means “the best of a group”, and when LRH first made a statement to the effect that those who reached for Scientology were above the average, it seems to me there was truth to that.”

    Slippery Slope to total enslavement, remember the 99 % versus the 1 % who consider themselfs the Elite, Entitled and better than the rest.

    America is back under the rule of King George, the Elite few

  97. Funny how Genisis 1 and 2 come to mind again

    “There’s one trap in all of this I can see. One can arrive at the proud announcement of having figured out 100% of how a thetan gets himself tangled up in MEST.”

  98. Cat Daddy, you may be right about the Slippery Slope, but I don’t think LRH meant his statement the way it was interpreted – at least not in the beginning. A Student Hat lecture comes to mind, where he was basically making a case for the training of lots of auditors and, in so many words, got into this idea of the “elite”. Here’s a quote from the tape transcript:
    “Don’t think that you, with your auditing, cannot make a change in the society. You certainly can, you certainly can, but you would be making actually a rico and a pobre society. In other words, you’d be making the society of the rich and the poor, the aristocracy and the slaves, and so forth. It wouldn’t help but do that, because of course you could pick out people here and there and put them into terrific condition and never fix it up so they’re ever backed up, see? Well, they – oh yeah! They’ve got a big zone of influence, that’s for sure! And they’ll get things done, that’s for sure; but let me assure you they would not, all of them, be tempered by the peculiarities that I suffer from which is that man should be free. Not even after you’d audited them would they suffer from that peculiarity uniformly, let me assure you. That just wouldn’t be done.

    “And give it a decade, give it two decades, something like that, and they would be starting to get a little bit impatient. Enough victims would have been deposited on their doorstep for them to start erecting the stocks and the whipping posts. The next thing you know, we’d find we had two or three classes of citizen. We would have the clear and the slave, you know? We’d divide the whole society up in some kind of a line. It would just be forced upon us to do this.

    “That is actually a very dangerous direction in which to proceed because that direction has always led civilizations into decay and chaos. There is no such thing as a successful civilization which is made out of slave masters and slaves. I assure you that it is not successful. It’s never been successful and it never will be successful. Now, it’s attractive and it can be practical but it’s not successful. It has no great duration and it doesn’t make anybody much happier.” (SHSBC-108 – 24.1.62 “Training: Duplication”)

    Btw, I suspect this point about training relates to a primary reason that Scn went in a destructive direction, i.e. most Scientologists did not take advantage of 50% of the gains available – i.e. those on the training side of the Bridge – and that resulted in an imbalance of yin and yang (as Marty described it in one of his blog posts).

  99. rainbodhi, you wrote: “It’s really a big question as to how Scientology will fare when it’s practiced by intelligent individuals completely outside the ’emergency zone’ and absent of abuse. But there are many possibilities, and I hope for the best.”
    I just posted another comment where I quoted part of an LRH lecture – another part of which, coincidentally, I think is LRH’s answer to what you wrote above. Here’s what follows what I already quoted:

    “So this is quite interesting from a point of view of a long look. Very few of you ever give a long look to Scientology, you leave that up to me to a marked degree. Well, thank you; but when I look in the crystal ball and look up the line a century I can see a number of pictures presenting themselves, a number of aspects of what might come of all this. And don’t think you can fire a shot of this volume and magnitude in a planet of this type without creating an effect. It might be a slow effect, just to the degree, you see, that it is practical. Its speed actually is determined not by the inertia of the masses but by the efficiency and effectiveness of what you’re doing. And you can’t let go of something like this in a society or a world of this type or size without having repercussions that don’t just go up a century. They’ll be still racketing up the line until this planet is a billiard ball.

    “Now, it might become a billiard ball sooner than you think. But not all of you will forget Scientology even if you go to another planet. So you see we’ve never fired this shot silently or without effect, you see?

    “I’m not degrading what you, yourself, as one person can do. But if you’re going to do the job fully and wholly or do the job effectively, then the job will be done rather swiftly; and in doing the job relatively fast you save many of the cataclysmic aspects of what might happen because of the entrance upon this scene of Scientology. In other words, the more rapidly you do it the better the job is done. It’s just like auditing a PC.

    “You see in one PC the world at large, you see? He is the microcosm and the world is the macrocosm; and you see that what is happening to a PC – you know that if you audit him slowly and poorly he makes thuhh, and he goes duhhh, and he gets a little bit better and in about two or three days he says, ”Well, maybe I’ll make it. Maybe I’ll bla-bla-blah …” and all of a sudden he doesn’t feel so well, and so on; he didn’t get much of a result and he slows down and goes into third gear, and he puts it all on the back burner, and so forth. Well, those fits and starts would be the fits and starts of the track of the civilization in which we live if we did not approach this problem effectively and do it with fair effectiveness.

    “And part of that effectiveness is make enough auditors. Now, you’re not enough auditors. You just aren’t enough auditors, that’s all. There just aren’t enough. We’re not against a quantitative proposition here particularly, but when I say ”auditor” I mean somebody who merely audits. You have to combine in your repertoire the ability to train auditors and then you’re enough, then you become enough auditors, don’t you see? Right away, just the people in this room would be enough auditors if they trained auditors. And providing you did your job superlatively well and you knew how to make an auditor do his job superlatively well, you see, if you knew that, then you – with that kind of progress you would wind up with enough auditors. Then you could do the job, you see? That could be done. But not otherwise.” (SHSBC-108 – 24.1.62 “Training: Duplication”)

  100. Warren Marston

    The definition of “troll” (verb) per Wiktionary is, “In an online community or discussion, to post inflammatory material so as to attempt to lure others into combative argument for purposes of personal entertainment and/or gratuitous disruption.” That’s not what I’ve been doing. I’m not entertaining myself. Nor am I trying to disrupt your forum for no good reason. I just disagree with you on certain issues, which I very sincerely consider need to be discussed. Is disagreement now a sin according to you? Meanwhile you refuse to actually discuss the issues on which we disagree. Instead you use PR techniques to divert attention off of those issues. And when that doesn’t work you moderate my comments out. To me, this is not intellectually fair, even on your own blog.

  101. martyrathbun09

    “Nor am I trying to disrupt your forum for no good reason.” Freudian slip? What is the good reason? You get moderated when you start attacking the moderator while accusing him of your own less than admirable behavior.

  102. Scientology corporation always messing with their personal life. Human beings need privacy.

  103. I’m not sure how it relates to my post exactly but I certainly agree with both of your sentences.

  104. Nothing Hubbard said or develloped is holy, It only could be helpfull, depends ofn the person.

  105. “Almost to a one, somewhere along the line each individual’s intent and purpose for engaging in Scientology in the first place were tampered with, rejected and replaced entirely by
    imposed intents and purposes.”

    Marty, I fully agree on this!
    I rarely visit your blog these days. I used to check your pages on a daily basis before. They got a bit boring for me.
    I would love to see you picketing in your former uniform. Maybe you can show up in a replica on TV. I would love to see you more active. Sure, you have told us about almost everything and slowly run out of ideas.
    You have done a great job. Nevertheless I ask you to be constantly present on the streets like these cult booksellers. Your name and face are important to be seen constantly, let’s say like Tom Cruise for the cult.
    It is a lot I am asking for. You don’t have to do it. Still, I find it important enough to be mentioned here.
    Many thanks for your great actions so far.

  106. Thanks for the ack. 🙂

  107. Hi. 🙂

    That’s a great quote and provides some insight into just how seriously he thought about how Scientology would “stand the test of time”. Certainly he would have had, in the back of his mind at least, an understanding of the impact and longevity that his books and lectures were going to have in future generations.

    I do believe he was trying to get things “right” – he was very opinionated about the vices and virtues found within other religions, and there’s no reason not to think that he believed in reincarnation, cause and effect, and being caught in spiritual traps. (And as far as many of us here are concerned, so do we).

    And he would’ve given serious thought to what would happen if it ended up in “the wrong hands” – as he warned in the now expunged PDC lectures.

    In light of all this, I do believe he would’ve expected people to roll up their sleeves and go grassroots if it meant getting the actual tech out there.

    It’s quite daunting to think of what Scientology might be like in a century or more. But the fundamental principles are likely still going to capture interest for as long as people are spiritually inquisitive. Spiritual discovery should be fun and enjoyable – as well as being taken seriously. So yes, I think it’s imperative to keep the distant future in mind. 🙂

  108. The more I read and understand your posts and its comments the more CLEAR my heads get! THANK YOU ALL!

  109. Warren Marston

    To everyone complaining above about my use of the term “elite,” I apologize for not making my meaning clear. Here’s a little more detail.

    Most of today’s Scientologists who ACT elite are very obviously NOT elite at all, at least not in a good way, but are merely dramatizing their cult indoctrination. In fact, about 5 years ago in a personal conversation with Mick McFarland, then Senior C/S of OSA Int, I said that I thought Sea Org C/Ses, MAA’s, and staff in general were dramatizing a 3rd dynamic service facsimile (deeply-rooted computation that continuously makes self right and others wrong), and HE AGREED. So I’m with you on the disgusting nature of the falsely claimed elitism of these people.

    Very few of them ever understood, delivered, or received REAL Scientology, because they got in AFTER the Church was corrupted in the mid-70’s. In fact, since they responded to the marketing of an already corrupted organization, most of these later Scientologists didn’t even have the same initial motivation for their involvement that “old timers” did. Later recruits may have been looking for a cause to believe in, or some effective help with their communication skills and psychological hangups, but not many of them were true spiritual seekers looking for actual liberation.

    The vast majority of the population just isn’t aware that there’s anything odd or wrong with our being in human bodies, in this society, on planet Earth. Being here operating these bodies CAN be a worthwhile game. We certainly should approach it with genuine ARC for everyone. And, within that game and that ARC, those of us who realize the truth about the spiritual nature of this planet aren’t necessarily any “better” than anyone else. But there IS a HIGHER game. Those of us aware of it respond to certain concepts that others don’t, and that’s just the way it is.

    People are different. Only a small percentage of the population is athletic enough to play professional sports. Only a small percentage is talented enough to have a successful career in Hollywood. And only a small percentage can score at the top of an IQ test. In fact, pick whatever you are personally very, very good at, and probably only a small percentage of the population is in that same “elite” class with you. In the same way, only a small percentage is aware NOT ONLY that we are we all immortal spiritual beings, but ALSO that we’re in a very unnatural trap on this planet, escape from which previous spiritual practices have been relatively ineffective in facilitating.

    It was mostly THAT small percentage that was attracted to REAL Scientology in the late 60’s and early 70’s, BEFORE the Church became a Nazi control cult. And, for the most part, they were purged out of the Church, or at least out of the Sea Org, during DM’s rise to power. The wannabe “elite” that remained to assist him were really elite in only one way. They were part of the small percentage willing to become assimilated into the type of sociopathic cult the Church had become. Buoyed up by their indoctrination, they vastly exaggerated their own worth, while invalidating the worth of anyone and everyone not following “command intention” with proper goose step enthusiasm.

    So I agree with nearly everything that’s been said by others here in negative reaction to my use of the word “elite.” I hope I’ve now made my meaning more clear. Most of what YOU don’t want from what you call “Scientology,” I don’t want either. But unlike most of the readers of this blog, my “old timer” friends and I experienced REAL Scientology BEFORE it was corrupted. Most of what you object to about today’s Scientology wasn’t present to any significant degree in those days. Many of you who hate Scientology today would have liked it back then.

  110. martyrathbun09

    You noted: “The vast majority of the population just isn’t aware that there’s anything odd or wrong with our being in human bodies, in this society, on planet Earth.”
    You summed up perfectly just how Scientology is a destructive, doomsday cult. And so your alleged apologia puts you further into the arrogant, elitist tar pit, in my view.

  111. “I have learned through life that to the extent one tries to convince you otherwise that person is trying to lead you to where he wants you to go – irrespective of how eloquently he might convincingly represent otherwise.”

    Wise words, and exactly my problem with Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard. The only road to spiritual freedom? Sorry, no.

  112. Today you are You, that is truer than true. There is no one alive who is Youer than You.”

    ― Dr. Seuss, Happy Birthday to You!

  113. While in general, you have made some points well worth consideration, I strongly disagree with your characterization of those who adhere to LRH tech.. We are simply offering the tools we trained to do.. NOT “selling some dogma”… Look, you can run a process on some aborigines and either they GET GAINS or they do not.. you do not have to tell them “this is Scn….” and enforce them to “believe”… TRs gets great gains on most everyone… REGARDLESS of what you call it! You do not have to “get on board with Hubbard” to get gains! I can take this tech to maybe Outer Mongolia & call it “Mongolology” & I am positive I can create a following JUST WITH TRs 0-9!!! Next.. I can do SA Lists & get MORE followers… so does that make me a “Hubbardite”? I think not! WHAT would you say if a FORD mechanic tells you he “Know all about how to fix your Maserati engine”?? No, you expect him to fix your FORD.. Same with LRH tech.. THAT should not be mixed with “herbs”, “metaphysical séances”, astrology…. ad nauseum! I hope I have not missed your intentions because I am a big supporter… but the objective is not a tech that is “tailored” to each person.. it is a tech that GETS RESULTS & CAN BE LEARNED & TAUGHT successfully!
    Ian Waxler, Class 8 C/S

  114. martyrathbun09

    You did not duplicate nor understand the post in the slightest.

  115. I can see the big elephant standing in the middle of the room there as he mentions Freud Rogerian theraphy and Pavlov.

  116. Keep your head up! 😉

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