I take to heart the comments to my last post accusing me of casting too wide a net on the issue of whether one should trust a person wearing the scientology banner. To the extent I offended some folks, I apologize. So as to avoid such offense in the future I also provide here fair warning. If the last post offended you, the next several probably will too. If you want positive reinforcement for your faith, you will not find it here; but for possibly in the comments section where scientologists are free to provide their views with everyone else. There is an evolution afoot that perhaps ought be shared with readers here.
Of late I have been asked by a number of journalists, documentarians and religious experts to explain any legitimate aspects of scientology. Since the church responded to the revelations of the Truth Rundown series – and its progeny – by bunkering down and going incommunicado with such folks, I have sort of inherited some of their public affairs function by default. In the course of that odd twist of fate one repeated question became increasingly difficult for me to answer: whether I recommend scientology to the public at large.
My answer has evolved with my own experience and thoughts. Ultimately, my answer is that I would not recommend to anyone that they get involved in scientology. That is because having thoroughly deconstructed the subject I came to realize that its control and exploitation elements are so thoroughly embedded within the teachings of Hubbard as to make the journey more likely to be on-the-whole negative than positive.
Of course there are some stellar results that have been achieved by application of scientology. But, those are contingent not only upon the person they are applied to but to a great extent by the instructors’ or counselors’ ability to inspire confidence. In this context ‘confidence’ can be read almost synonymously with ‘faith.’ If – as in some spiritual and psychotherapeutic practices – that confidence or faith is acknowledged and imbued and nurtured for what it is within the client or supplicant, it more predictably leads toward salutary results. But, scientology – adhered to as the ism it is – by design leads one in the opposite direction.
The raw statistics of scientology support my conclusion about whether it is worth the price one inevitably must pay for it (not just monetarily). David Miscavige (influenced, of course, by Hubbard advices on the subject) used to repeat ad nauseam to his public relations people whenever the media brought up a scientology abuse that they were to say words to the effect, ‘for every one who complains, I can bring you one thousand scientologists who swear by it.’ Having dispassionately ball-parked the numbers through thirty-five years of involvement with the subject, I would say the truth is more on the order of for every one considering she was damaged from her experience with scientology, scientology could probably match it with a die-hard true believer extolling its virtues. Certainly, greater than 90% of people who have taken several courses or intensives (12 ½ hours each) of auditing in scientology have disconnected from scientology as an organization and membership body completely. What percentage of them thought the good outweighed the bad or vice versa is anybody’s guess. Given the extraordinary efforts scientology engages in to keep members aboard, and the draconian punishments it metes out upon any member or former member raising doubts or reservations, my guess is that the latter far outnumber the former. Less than one thousand former members give much attention to on-line forums, blogs and other networks involving scientology at any given time.
By the numbers, it is apparent that scientologists are led to believe they and their subject are a lot more important than they in fact are to the world at large.
When I weigh that objective look against what scientology produces, both inside the official organizations and without, and with what I know about the depth of the embedded control and exploitation implantation within scientology, on balance I cannot with good conscious recommend it as a high percentage bet for anybody.
I have devoted the better part of six years to attempting to help the subject survive by elimination of its negative elements. I concede that the experiment was a failure. As much as independent scientologists accuse the organization (RTC , CSI, et al) of operating on judgmentalism, arrogance, utiltarianism over conscience, form over substance, and Hubbard-revisionism dressed up as Hubbard-literalism I have found all those shortcomings just as prevalent in the independent field as in the organizations. I hold no rancor for such folks – inside or out – to the extent they stay out of the grills of people who ask them to. A dispassionate study traces those self-defeating qualities as stemming from Hubbard and his scientology works themselves.
I have found efforts over the past year and one half to help people graduate from the subject to not be very popular nor worth the effort that goes into doing so. While some of what I have already worked on along that line may appear from time to time on this blog, the focus will veer more toward speaking to the general public – as opposed to the formers, the antis, and indies. The blog continues to serve as a chronicle of my own journey guided by my conscience – for whatever that is worth – and you can expect it to tend toward speaking to the increasing percentage of audience who are unfamiliar with the subject. It may well even tend toward unrelated subjects. There are plenty other forums where positive reinforcement of existing anti, pro, indie, and ex scientology views can be had. I hope for all of you that at some point in the not too distant future you will find your own comfortable, fulfilling middle path.
If you like that, you will probably love this:
Maintain balance, then you can continue.
Dear Marty, I can so relate! I have been pro and I have been con regarding the whole subject. There are many good things, but there is lots of garbage in the in-between. And I can say that after deprogramming myself for the past 20+ years. No small feat as you well know. So based on my personal experience I would say I agree I would not recommend Scio to someone.
I would state loud and clear I had some phenomenal wins and gains. But I never bought the party line of what was supposed to be what. Just went with the flow. I got a lot of bangs for my buck, but I got my whole bridge when it was affordable, pulled in good course supps and auditors.
But here I am all these years later, still sorting lies from truths, fantasy from reality, distortions from actualness. As I look at it all now I see Hubbard’s ego and personal insanity and fictional creations everywhere throughout the subject. I am thankful I have not been a lock stepping follower.
So I’ll stop chattering on and say I understand the journey. I could write all the specifics but I don’t think there is enough room on you blog. LoL
I agree. About a year ago I was chatting with a friend, also an ex-Scientologist, and I asked, “Is it possible to separate out any workable tech from the unworkable…KSW does not allow it, after all?” The concern was that right in the woof and warp of the tech is some unbearable evil, dictator-like control, and outright suppression of truth/freedom. As time went by I too concluded that it is almost impossible. That day I threw away all of my materials. Since, I have actually concluded that much of the “workable tech” is also quite flawed.
I still maintain that I made gains with my involvement in Scientology (35 years of it), but that was more because I was on a spiritual journey with others, not because of any ultimate correctness of the tech.
I hear you brother. Having taken the same journey myself I openly tell people about my experiences in the hope to help them avoid the mental and physical abuse that I went through. This is one case where the downside definitely far outweighed the benefits. For people who are still believers in the “technology” of Scientology, the religion itself or even L Ron Hubbard, I can only say to you, please tread lightly. Really look into what you are doing to yourself and to the others around you. Look at what you are missing in life. Because there is quite a bit out here that needs your attention and could use the real characteristic that all Scientologists share in common, the desire to help. That would be something. If Scientologists opened their eyes for real, and saw that all their cheering and clapping for COB and their money making buildings and stopped being hypnotized by graphs that marked the rise of nothing, and looked around at the world, picked one subject that needed to be solved, poverty in our country, child homelessness, veterans living on the streets, really anything and they banded together to end it, wow. I believe they could. They have the energy and drive that could really make wonderful things happen in the world, FOR REAL, if they wanted to.
But instead they sit on their collective asses and throw money at buildings and imagine how much they are helping the whole world. They really believe that they have changed the world through their giving. That is sad. Really sad.
PS Marty it has been great going through this journey with you. Seeing you through this whole thing has helped me and many others to let go. I always tell people if they are curious what it takes to let go of Scientology and strip it away to read your Blog from the beginning. It takes a hell of a lot. A hell of a lot.
You make me and my peers work for it, good show Marty and Monique, Good show.
WTF and see you later.
Very good songs – and makes sense
I applaud, Marty, your willingness to share your inner evolution, and expose yourself to whatever criticisms or judgements such sharing may generate. I would further say, though, that, without personal emotional and spiritual advancements made, in large part to the technology encompassed within scientology teachings, that openness would not have occurred. My encouragement, thus, would be that you make some larger effort as you go along, to make a distinction between the Tech itself, and the organization- which, from what I’ve seen and heard, is largely devoid of technical application these days. Like you, I wouldn’t and couldn’t recommend a new person to get involved with Scientology today. But I would easily support that same person’s learning and applying TR’s, CCH’s, Self Analysis, HB for PC’s, Dianetics (Bk 1 or New Era), and the grades processes (run non-roboticly). I’ve experienced, produced, and observed huge gains with these things, and It is all stuff that Hubbard gathered together from numerous sources, but then codified into a single fairly cohesive body of work without, as far as I can tell, inserting any of the negative elements you referenced.
I am pondering still
My dear friend,
I too have been watching your journey of spiritual evolution. The conclusions you have come to, I came to sometime ago , “in my gut”. But “my gut” was not the basis for rational thought. I have followed your path of considered study and introspection on the subject, and thank you for clarifying with fact and understanding, what I knew in my heart (or gut) to be true. You have opened yourself to a vista as wide as you want to make it, which can only make you and the world around you a better place.
Thank you for being the guy who took on Scientology, both philosophically and the corporate behemoth. Your recent post about not trusting a Scientologist was a bullseye as far as I’m concerned. From the mid 70s on I encountered a disproportionate number of flakes masquerading as ethical, trustworthy people within the CofS. For me it’s always been “How are the cookies at this bakery?” rather than “Is a Scientologist baking the cookies here?” In short, I’ve always maintained close contact with the real world. But even at that I experienced it through the filter of various LRH quotes without fully realizing that’s what I was doing. For about 1 3/4 years now I’ve been working on pulling out this filter by its weedy roots. You have helped me enormously with this and I appreciate it more than I can say. So please don’t abandon the book you’ve been working on to help people personally unplug from Scientology. It will do a lot of good. After all, every snake bite or spell deserves an antidote.
Marty posted some epic music by epic women. I want to be a part of that.
“When I weigh that objective look against what scientology produces, both inside the official organizations and without, and with what I know about the depth of the embedded control and exploitation implantation within scientology, on balance I cannot with good conscious recommend it as a high percentage bet for anybody.”
This is exactly my position on Scientology, too.
Oh… and also that L Ron Hubbard was a piece of shit for what he, very intentionally, did to Scientologists.
You’ve answered the last question on my mind re scientology. I used to think the affirmations were not relevant, as having come some time before scientology. Then I though, what if the purposes they reflect flow through all of scientology? I think they do. When dealing with scientology, one must not ignore the human cost. It has been, and continues to be, immense.
I feel I have more or less graduated the desperate need for scientology. You haven’t heard from me for a while because I lost access to that e-mail address and also have not finished Power vs Truth (which felt cringe-inducingly cult-like to me, so I’ve had some back-off to spending my time with it).
I have not graduated from my ‘spiritual journey’. I don’t know if this is good or bad. I am very interested in your Zen of Fishing book (if that is what it is). That sounds a lot like the direction I’ve been going in over the past half a year or so.
Your endeavour has been liberating to many. Thank you.
Nice summation, Marty. Your on a journey, we are on our journeys, and for a while now and then we will share some experiences from our paths and the jewels found on them. That’s how I see the blog. A place to share advice, direction, and some jewels we each may have found. Confronting and shedding the negative aspects of scientology was work and took some effort. Sharing it was a public service. Thank you on both counts. You became uniquely qualified over time for that task. Executing it was obviously a large part of your destiny. An awful lot of men and women have grown through the discourse presented here. Nice job. Well done. Look forward to more.
I like you very much. How do you view little pieces of art in music ?
Jonsty, please talk to my good friend Terril Park.
35 years, jeeze you sound like a real young gal or dude
If you need me to fight for you on a blog or website I will be your knight.
ask, I hate Injustice
I will support that
Said it before… And it still holds true for me now…
Your journey… And your sharing of it is, I believe, of immense value and will help increasing numbers of enquiring souls over time.
Whatever your future adventures I look forward to the written versions you will hopefully share.
Other than a very brief —- ABSOLUTELY AGREE Marty —
I’ll be back to comment later …
Right now I have a 48:11 movie to watch: “Scientologist at War”
Click on the link to the right — $2.99 — rental … looks fabulous!!
Thanks, Marty for sharing your outlook in detail.
I would say the following to all out there:
(1) I have examined the subject for myself. You are free to examine it for yourself.
(2) Listen to what Hubbard has to say but look at it critically. Compare it to similar subjects.
(3) Do not agree to any policy that takes away your freedom to think critically, such as, their “verbal tech” policy, which discourages discussions, and looking at other viewpoints about Scientology on Internet.
(4) Gains from auditing sessions come only from you looking at the right areas of your case. They do not come from Scientology philosophy. Stay away from blindly trusting any philosophy in Scientology.
(5) Scientology processes may or may not direct you to the right area of your case. Do not take it for granted that the C/S always determines the right process for your case.
(6) You would know from first few questions of the process whether it is directing you to the right area of your case or not. You are the best judge for your case. Don’t let anybody convince you otherwise.
(7) If you let yourself be flattered by anybody in Scientology you are asking for trouble.
Marty, I have been tracking with you all along and will be more than happy to leave scientology behind.
I’m baaaaack (from watching the video — there surely will be at some point another chapter to the video. Marty has moved beyond this ending of this video but definitely worth watching and supporting)
Marty is the ONLY former scientologist that I know who is on a journey that *could* help those stuck inside the cemented mindset created by having been part of scientology.
He is the ONLY former scientologist that works, that I know of, apparently 24/7 at self-reflection which enables him to blog about his journey.
I have a couple of former scientology friends who agree with Marty — they have left scientology behind and would never ever recommend it to anyone HOWEVER they are way under the radar. Not out for the world to see and scientology to use its bazillions to silence them. They maintain some of their prior scientology friends but are fully engaged in their own lives far far away from scientology.
And as far as I know — that don’t trust anyone either who says he is still a scientologist. And neither do I.
Although I must say that Karen and her husband work diligently and intelligently at exposing the horrific policies of the church.
The difference is that Marty’s personal journey towards “the middle way” is offered to anyone reading his blog.
Recently an “indie” (who doesn’t like to be called that because according to them they are TRUE scientologists and thus there is no need for the indie title) responded to an email of mine. I reached out because I had been furious with him for a couple of years. And I had just learned that one of the reasons I was so mad is that he owed someone I care about money and had not ever contacted him. I learned that he had actually offered to give the owed money back.
ANYWAY I reached out — said I was happy to hear that things were going well enough for him now that he had offered to pay back the money. He was SURPRISED that I would reach out because he figured I would always hate him.
I can anyone ALWAYS hate anyone? Isn’t that a rather cemented mind-set?
In any case, he has a definite point of view regarding me mostly stemming from what he considered a couple years ago to be my outrageous out-ethics and to be fair — I have to admit I had a serious lapse in judgment at that time.
BE THAT AS IT MAY —- I have since sorted through my own life thanks in part to this blog and pointers along the way as well as my own meditative practice and study.
HOWEVER, this person proceeded not to have a REAL conversation with me but to start to indicate to me HOW MUCH OUT TECH THEY FOUND IN THE FIELD around NOTS and SOLO NOTS — implying that they could and would “fix” me or at least implying that my out-ethics was BECAUSE of the out-tech.
It was obvious to me that the person has failed to self-reflect. He is unable to see his own actions. His own fixed points of view.
Without self-reflection there can be NO WISDOM.
All ancient wisdom traditions have said this.
Marty practices this. Others here practice this. I work hard attempting to practice this.
Self-reflection. Doesn’t cost a dime. Just requires a quiet space and the ability and willingness to look over your day and watch your mind.
As for this part: “I applaud, Marty, your willingness to share your inner evolution, and expose yourself to whatever criticisms or judgements such sharing may generate. I would further say, though, that, without personal emotional and spiritual advancements made, in large part to the technology encompassed within scientology teachings, that openness would not have occurred.”
That goes along with the following piece of wisdom from Heraclitus:
“No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it’s not the same river and he’s not the same man.”
You are an inspiration. I am so grateful to have you as a friend. Thank you for all your research and exploration of Scientology and so many other subjects. You have helped me to gain a new understanding of myself and the world we live in. Thank you for sharing your journey so openly. I look forward to what comes next 🙂
Gardening works pretty nicely for that too!
“Without self-reflection there can be NO WISDOM.”
This is a great point.
But sometimes there can be sham self-reflection.
For instance, self-reflection that must be constantly compared and checked against a fixed ideology is not actually self-reflection, but gluing yourself to a group that has nothing to do with you, or who you set out to be when you were born.
You THINK it is self-reflection because your self has been replaced with a fake, cult identity. This doesn’t just happen in Scientology, but in many areas of life as a human being.
For instance, the first recorded use of OW write ups was applied in Maoist reconditioning camps, where the inmate wrote up his “overts” to Mao and Mao’s new communist ideals for China that he had implemented through the barrel of a gun.
In this kind of a situation, you are judging yourself and your actions against moral codes that been forced on you, or you have adopted, from a source outside yourself, which you are trying to please, or live up to, or obey for some imagined – or real – gain – such as not going to the RPF, or not being lined up and shot for being a “spai”.
So self reflection is hard. Even in Buddhism, I have found that there are a lot of standards that I have to reject because they are not my own. In fact, I have found that anything that has a word or term connected to it, is not my own.
My own self reflection has taught me that English has nothing to do with how I really operate. If it is a feeling, or a sensation, or anything ineffable – I know it is me.
So I reflect against that, and find it very helpful.
Thank you, too, Windhorse, for your insights over the years here on Marty’s blog. You too have been very helpful to me.
“The National Council for Excellence in Critical Thinking (a non-profit organization based in the U.S.) defines critical thinking as the intellectually disciplined process of actively and skilfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, and/or evaluating information gathered from, or generated by, observation, experience, reflection, reasoning, or communication, as a guide to belief and action. ” ( Wiki)
I am proud of you Marty. Critical Thinking at work and at it’s finest!
Marty and friends!
Thanks Michael. Perfect summation.
Love always Marty. It’s been a privilege and a pleasure driving down the road with you 🙂 xxx
Hit damn, Marty! Every paragraph packed a punch and rove it home. Music and music to my ears. 🙂
Thanks Marty for keepin’ on keepin’ on! Your blog has been fabulously helpful to me, in sorting out where I am right now and where I might be headed. I have no deep knowledge or experience of Scientology, so I have little to say about its pros and cons. I enjoy listening to LRon’s lectures. He can be incredibly corny but also insightful at the same time. He said a lot of original things that corresponded with other subjects and areas of life, and a lot of his comments about society were at the very least Swiftian. He skewered many aspects that deserved to be skewered.
Also, I see nothing wrong with recommending a book like Self-Analysis to anyone. But, I stopped routing people to the orgs as far back as the early
1980s for obvious reasons. To me, due diligence means I read and listen to LRon’s take on things, as well as the “Critics” take on things. I really appreciate the honest and reflective opinions and reports of someone like you who was really there and saw Scientology’s depths first hand!
Wow Tom, the very phrase I used for thanking Marty, in my post just a little downstream of yours!
It’s never been easy being a Scientologist, and that’s for sure. I understand where you are coming from. I don’t agree that it leads inevitably toward “embedded control and exploitation implantation”. But, no matter. I don’t regret my involvement in Scientology at all. On the whole it was a positive experience. It is worth knowing and applying, but with a discerning eye.
The only real problem is that the way I learned Scientology no longer exists. Like Camelot, it is gone. I think something like it can and maybe, who knows, does exist, but it will be in a different form.
As for you, I see this blog as the journey of one man who spent years going down one path, has done things he can be proud of, and things he can’t be, and who has gone through and is going through a change of faith, and an awakening. This journey will never end. It has been educational and helpful acting as a voyeur, so to speak, to your journey. God knows, you have had a hell of a time, and still are going through it. All Scientologists/Former Scientologists have their journeys, if they took the subject seriously, and each journey is as valid as meaningful as any other. This blog – you, and your friends (and not-so-friends) who contribute – has been a wonderful vehicle for these journeys to be shared. Thank you for that.
I wish you and Mosey and your family nothing but the best, and peace, and fulfillment.
Thank you, Valkov.
I appreciate that.
Nice, Marty. It is always refreshing when someone simply speaks their truth, without recrimination, but also without apology or qualification. Also, when a person allows their thinking to evolve and be informed by life. That’s what I appreciate most about this post. Witnessing your journey thus far has been so gratifying, as a fellow human being, and one who has made it my work to guide others on journeys to healing and understanding. Thank you for your openness, and willingness to reveal your learning process.
“The blog continues to serve as a chronicle of my own journey guided by my conscience – for whatever that is worth – and you can expect it to tend toward speaking to the increasing percentage of audience who are unfamiliar with the subject. It may well even tend toward unrelated subjects.”
This. I am glad you will keep blogging, Marty, and expanding the range of the discussions here will only make them better. I’ll be here, for sure, and happy to join in the conversation when I can!
“I wish you and Mosey and your family nothing but the best, and peace, and fulfillment.”
Welc. You’ve been making a lot of good posts. I’m glad to see you feeling better. It must be difficult, being a “recovering Scientologist”, especially one as dedicated towards the well-being of others as you were. Cheers! 🙂
Well done, Marty.
I’m a never-in who spent something like 20 years following both the critical movement and the Free Zone because, though I know LRH was a cult leader, rip-off merchant and petty dictator, I hoped against hope that something of what he designed did work – that there could be a “Pure Scientology” which could produce “Clears” free of insanity, prejudice and bigotry (I never believed in that OT nonsense). But all the Indies/Freezoners whom I ever met turned out to be just as nutty, thought not usually as evil, as the Church itself.
Many confirm that Scientology is one of the hardest cults to break free of, indicating that its thought-reform processes work more efficiently than, say, the Hare Krishnas or the Moonies. Which indicates that there is some effectiveness (evil though it be) to the techniques. I am still interested in isolating what that is – is there some kind of “reverse Scientology” (based on the “real stuff” which LRH stole from Freud, Crowley, Korbynzski etc) which could turn normal people into kind and compassionate saints, rather than brainwashed slaves of evil?
Thank you Marty and Monique. A fine team.
I agree with your conclusion and I second what Jamie said above. Thank you for sharing with all of us as you have gone down this road. Stepping out from under the controlling & limiting Scientology realities has been liberating. It’s a whole new world.
Much love to you and the family!
And the road ahead is marvelous.
What new horizons wait!
Free….. Free to be, free to be free.
“Lead us from the unreal to the real
Lead us us from darkness to light
Lead us from ignorance to wisdom
And lead us from death to immortality”
“…I have found that anything that has a word or term connected to it, is not my own.
My own self reflection has taught me that English has nothing to do with how I really operate. If it is a feeling, or a sensation, or anything ineffable – I know it is me.
So I reflect against that, and find it very helpful.”
So beautifully stated, Alanzo. This is my experience also.
Your point about “sham self-reflection” is very important. It is so easy to fool ourselves on that level. Especially when we can adapt a lingo and conceptual framework and use that to signal our self-awareness, as opposed to demonstrating self-awareness directly. It is too easy to just mouth the words, and maintain an environment where there is mutual agreement to never challenge each other to “walk the talk”. I find that kind of atmosphere stifling, and very limiting, because everyone must operate within the shared assumptions and blind spots implied by the “inside” language.
Using the right words can easily take the place of doing the right thing. A person can lose track of their own moral center when this happens. It makes a person easy to manipulate, when they must rely on those kinds of cues to evaluate credibility or trustworthiness. It is so easy to fool others into thinking of you as “one of them”, simply by using the terms that imply you share their assumptions about the matter at hand. Or, to provoke others and create tension, by using words that threaten those assumptions. Language is a lever, and con-men and gurus are masters of that leverage. Advertisers and politicians, too.
You must be very confused right now. I wish you the best.
Beautiful sentiment Chocolate … Straight from the heart. You have such a wonderful way with words.
Marty you have so much support from so many. We posters may disagree about our beliefs ..OK we continue to still disagree, but Marty I respect you and your blog to not make the comments that I write on other blogs.
I am looking forward to continuing your journey with you!
and Mosey… I would have loved to have been a little mouse in that corner during many of the discussions that you have had with Marty over the years..ha You both have such strength.
and William James Rathbun is just the cherry on top of this fabulous thing that you call life..
My favorite quote.. ” Everything will be OK in the End. If it is NOT OK, it is not the end. ” Good Luck!
Couldn’t put it better than this. You have been courageous Marty. Wishing you and your family the best.
I agree in part I would not recommend anyone get involved in this iteration called “Scientology”, as to my viewpoint it has devolved into a dramatization of “the winning valance”. It is further adrift having adopted materialistic goals, cloaked under the guise of “handling the 4th dynamic”. It is a sham “religion” in that respect, and greatly devalues whatever wisdom, insight, workability, philosophy or technology that it may have exhibited in the past.
We may have come full circle here. The Protestants rejected the venality of the Pope(s), and their “enforced realities” (Inquisition, “heavy ethics” i.e. – burning at the stake, confessions obtained via torture, etc)
shortly after the invention of the printing press, making the “Word” directly available to individuals, With the internet, the vast majority of the Scn canon is now also “available”. Only time will tell if it ultimately is discarded and forgotten, or finds traction elsewhere.
The part I disagree with somewhat is “But, those are contingent not only upon the person they are applied to but to a great extent by the instructors’ or counselors’ ability to inspire confidence.” If that were true, then I would never have spent as much time around the subject as I did. In the milieu of the late 70’s, early 80’s the orgs were pretty scruffy as well as the staff. But the attention given to ‘ARC’, ‘Understanding’, and ‘the comm cycle’ was a strong carrier signal for the transmission of ideas and concepts. And it was ‘live communication’. So to me it wasn’t “confidence” as much as “cred”. I guarantee you that if the intro lecturer
was someone like Grant Cardone , I would have been outta there toot sweet.
Thanks for opening all of the books you have opened here Marty. You didn’t just tell a story, you filmed it and documented it. Straight non fiction. Which was a breath of fresh air.
You walked the path all the way and viewed it from every angle before you spoke. That took a lot of discipline and determination.
You walked through through the storms of chaos, illusion, politics and religion. Witch hunts, fair gaming, healing others and building bridges. A winter of treason, you transformed into a season of reason.
You kept your compassion, your human decency, integrity, dignity, and God given rights with out them being forced from your hand.
You are in favor with the Gods brother. The red carpet will always roll out for you.
Marty, I do understand and if this is your middle path, let it be that way and, in fact and honestly, I am glad you found it.
On recommending or not Scientology as it is, well, I personally did observe beneficial changes on myself and other’s specially in late ’70s and early ’80s.
However, it is true that within the teachings are some major flaws:
-Evaluation. What was intended as a ‘technical estimation of the case’ became a constant evaluation of how the person is, should be and, based on that evaluation, processes were used to change the person rather than work for an honest improvement on the precelar’s own eyes.
Invalidation – a sister of the above – where any departure, opinion or viewpoint that was different from the structured expectations of what was written by LRH was used to invalidate the individual who dared to have his own choice. “You are wrong”, ‘that is out-ethics”, ‘this is squirreling’, ‘is off source” amongst hundred others.
Nullification – subtle to the point that most of us missed it; for sure I did. “We are here to help you” already implies you are not doing well, you can not handled it on your own and we are the only ones that know how to handle you, your life, civilization, et al.
Why sometime worked and sometimes not? I can answer based on my experience- when I audited or crammed another person I was not expecting anything; I was working together with him or her for the individual himself to find out, on his own, whatever was there to be more aware of.
1991 started the decline, 1996 became a nightmare with the infamous GAT as now the pressure to audit, handle ethics, administer the org or whatever. had to be done only as determined by RTC and, either you follow their ‘instructions’ or you were dead. Parishioners were invalidated and evaluated more than ever before and the resultant chaos is what we still see now, in and out of the Church. But that is the past.
One of these days I may write something to you re other subjects or ideas I have had and, if it fits the blog you may publish it or not as you choose. But it will be fun to look at other areas as well.
Glad you did the experiment and the outcome is welcomed by me.
“what he, very intentionally, did to scientologists”
For much of what he did and said was a lie, I wonder, how can he thought that he would get away with it and we would never find out?
Harsh ethics, disconnection, GO/OSA dirty tricks, PR were attempts to keep his flock from being contaminated with reality and worked to some extend, but he should have known that he couldn’t fool everybody all the time and ultimately such attempts would come to light.
“(4) Gains from auditing sessions come only from you looking at the right areas of your case. They do not come from Scientology philosophy. ”
Very true. In human emotions you have ups and downs. In the stock market you also have ups and downs. Processes shake our emotions up and down, but you know exactly when to end a process, when you are up. LRH then had us attribute our ups on “Scientoloy” and our lows on its absence. He even gave us the idea that we could go as up as to have supernatural powers. He played us like in a stock market, capitalizing on every up and investing on every low and making us addicted to his snake oil. And for every winner there is a loser. What we lost was our self confidence that we ourselves are making the ups, not Scientology.
Thank you Marty.
It is being a joyful experience to read the viewpoints you have reached.
I truly experience love for a soul that seeks the reaching of and that is able to make itself open for higher truths, and that imparts those truths for the benefit of others souls.
To me, It takes tremendous courage to open up the door to the pain and disharmony and insecurity that present themselves when one begins to let go of the needs and strong attachments that serve as preventers of encountering that pain, that disharmony, that insecurity, but which keep a soul trapped, obsessed, dependent and weak.
I love the soulness within you today.
I love the soul that achieved that soulness.
A man come into Scientology, his ruin is found and gets handled. He experience a huge gain. He got help. It is normal that he thinks Scientology is good.
A man come into Scientology, his ruin is not found and don’t get handled. Well, maybe don’t even exist a ruin, maybe he just want to help people. He is promised supernatural powers for him and for all, he is scared with lies on psychiatry and world destruction if he don’t follow scientology. He is persuaded to renounce to his own interests and work for free for Scientology for 10,20,30 years of his life for no pay or hand over to Scientology all he own.
It is normal that he thinks Scientology is bad once he wakes up.
These are two opposite cases, but in both cases there is a lie. An the lie is to attribute to scientology anything, for scientology is just a tool. A tool to enslave by bad people. A tool to improve by good people.
But what I think is wrong is for people to fully identify with a tool, calling themselves Scientologist. It is odd and a sign of missing freedom to be anything else.
I think what Marty’s saying is (please correct me if I’m wrong Marty) –
if you take “Standard Ron”, if it’s not inwriting it’s not true, and other demands of “standardness”, the chances that that adherence to that unquestioning obedience, could lead or does lead to a more deficient mental freedom.
KSW is complete propaganda. Adherence to Hubbard, true believers find sophisticated reasons to have enemies.
When questioning faith, any faith, finds cause to harm others in the name of that faith, or deem reasonable questions heretical and worthy of defrocking and atracking, whether that be from corporate church or brake away clones-
Then that path is a path into some darkness.
This violence or direspect towards critics is pure Ron, pure Scientology, and the effects of good study tech.
Personally, I am just going to keep on doing Scientology just because it works for me. I get a lot out of it and I find that many others do too. It’s OK if anyone wants to call me names for doing so. It doesn’t really bother me too much. If I ever change my view about this I will let y’all know. But my intuition advises that you shouldn’t hold your breath while waiting.
One thing that most everyone can agree with is that Raul Midon is an amazing artist. And so is India Arele Simpson. Wow. I’ve heard quite a few great cuts on this blog. Marty, you could do a blog just on music.
Thanks for India Arie, Marty. And for sharing your thoughts. Best to you and your family.
I could not agree with you more.
My deepest appreciation for your audace and integrity in these matters.
Life is a series of events that are somehow pre determined. As a child I could figure that out how my life would be, roughly. I did not like it. As a teen I figured out my future from 18 to 65. I did not like it. I wanted to change it. I could also figure out that my personal problems will stay with my all my life. That I never will make much money and others things I would want. This desire to change the course of events brought me into Scientology. The hope had been that I can overcome my personal obstacles. I made progress. But only little and then this progress vaporized. Again and again. Little progress, some change to the better, bang, reset, start all over again. This treadmill finally breaks your neck. The aim of that treadmill as full apathy. Scientology did in fact prevent my full apathy as I had hope to change my planned course of events. I finally could find out, that this treadmill exists and my planned life’s purpose is, that I give up. I can see people around me that gave up many years ago. No spark of hope can wake them up as they “know” there is no way out. So, they never will try again. Maybe in the not too distant future I will also secretly (to myself) join and never try again. Scientology did not make me Super Power OT that has lots of money and can do everything he wants. But it did change a bit my planned course of events.
The danger with Scientology is, that the aim (or one of the aims) of Scientology could be to find beings that are able and then push them down to full nothingness. There had been people inside with exactly that purpose. Sample: I did claim to be Clear. My Case Supervisor ordered me on objectives. Some years later, different location, I did claim that I am Clear. This Case Supervisor managed to be at the new location and to be my Case Supervisor. He again ordered me on objectives. This repeat broke my neck. The first session I went into full apathy. It took month of hard work to dig myself out. The people inside Scientology that only want our money are doing harm. But much more harmful are those dark souls that have the purpose to blow out your light.
There are and have been many different groups that could and did help. With enlightened people. But as those groups grew the dark ones joined. And darkness fell down. The race had been between us and them. Now is the time the people recognize that there must not be a race. One can stop running and the dark ones lost. My opinion: Scientology did add to this positively.
This post sounded a bit like you are saying farewell. Could that be true?
Probably, it just means that you are going on another tack in your path and therefore a sort of “page” is being turned on your journey.
I have followed your journey, now, for some years. It has been extremely illuminating. I have always, pretty much agreed with you on everything you said; I found out a lot about the group I grew up in, which I would never have found out otherwise . In many ways, you have made it possible for me to end a cycle or come to terms with a part of my life I looked upon as utterly wasted.
I often used to say to myself that any experience, even a bad one, is a good experience. I used to justify, with this, the extremely negative emotions I still had about my life in scientology. I am quite serious when I say that I need to thank you for helping me (from afar) in understanding why it had all gone wrong and how to be able to regain some semblance of sanity.
Your journey has been a sort of guiding line. That includes also a lot of the people who have contributed by commenting on your blog. I found a lot of people who are on great paths of enlightenment, indeed.
So, basically, what I would like to tell you is that I am interested in continuing to follow your path, so as to see what more I can learn from you.
Just so we are clear, there is nothing you could say or do that could alienate me completely — I have good perceptions and they tell me to follow your journey. I hope I may be able to do so for as long as possible.
What you have brought to public discussion is priceless.
Most people have done their journey in and out of Scientology privately, under wraps but you have done every step of the journey under the glare of watching eyes of the blog globally and very very publicly.
No greater legacy can be called for than that of a mentor and a teacher.
Because Scientology Inc handcuffs and straitjackets “non disparagement contracts” its members from having ANY discussion of experiences in, out and through their Scientology experiences.
Your voice has founded its own academy in the minds and hearts of your audience.
I love and support you my friend.
I hear you Marty, and you speak honest truth always. It is indeed a journey leaving Scientology. I left with no particular rancour having had pretty good gains overall, but knowing that I did not want to do OT levels. But the church has pursued me, tracking me down after I moved house twice and continuing to phone and write to me regularly despite being asked not to. No doubt they will turn up on the doorstep at some point. And so, what with that and the gradual process of separating out the truth from the BS and control, I get more towards being anti. The gains from Scn are indeed not likely to be worth the hassle.
Marty, your journey has definitely helped mine. For many years, I told people that it had lots of good elements but there was something very wrong with the organization itself.
Then I learned over time that many of the seemingly good and unique elements were simply lifted by Hubbard from others.
And then with further analysis, I realized that Hubbard was factually wrong on so many points, including his so-called axioms.
But what about the wins and cognitions I had on the way to clear, I asked myself. I certainly did have wins and so did those I audited. But, I had to ask myself, would I and those same PCs have had similar wins from any number of other approaches?
Like many people, as I disengaged I had to deal with the fears implanted by the group — fear of being declared SP, wariness of confidential auditing material being misused, thinking of the possibility of getting hit with big bills, fear of being followed and harassed for all time.
And then I eventually had to face the most sobering of facts. Yes, Scientology “works” in some ways — so do many things. But what I had to face was that it did and continues to do direct damage in many cases — damage that could be easily avoided by broader training in healing than Hubbard’s take on things. Some people get _worse_ in Scientology and spend years trying to heal — or never leave, but remain within trying to find their own evil purposes or whatever, rather than realize the technology does not work 100% of the time.
In the end, Hubbard lied and sold a fraudulent package. He lied when he claimed that Scientology would not be yoked to the god of no change — he made Scientology one of the most changeless creeds ever, and in his quest for eternal glory as source, he also made his creation unable to learn or evolve.
And he sold a fraudulent package. Realizing this was the last straw for me that broke my wanting to hold onto some sort of redeeming validation of Scientology. The fraud is that as best I can determine, no one has ever demonstrably achieved the states of Clear or OT VIII as originally defined by Hubbard. No one in 60+ years. The church (or any Scientologist having achieved such a state) could easily disprove what I have just alleged. But they can’t, because no one has gotten there. It’s subjective belief, and I was was not and am still not interested in belief when there is any chance of trading belief for reality.
I totally agree.
That’s a good explanation of the two approaches, and yes, Scientology is a tool. But, you know, people who work with physics call themselves physicists, people who work with wood call themselves wood-workers, people who drive trucks call themselves truck drivers. That’s not unusual, not odd.
But you’re right it shouldn’t be exclusionary.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance. (Article 18)
Thanks a lot. Your commentary contribution to the blog has been invaluable. It has opened my eyes to the ‘second-generation’ experience. Objectively, it is more important than my own. That is because the less scientology appeals to the general public the higher the percentage of its ranks consist of those born into it or raise into it.
Close Brian, but not exactly. I have a post coming up on the subject of ‘standard tech’ which will clarify.
You have also participated in that journey. One of perhaps the most heretical of things I used to say to folks after spending time with them was that I thanked them for helping and educating me too. It was not a pr line, there was not a person I counseled or spent time with that I did not learn something valuable from. I consider our times shared with you as some of the most rewarding in that regard. So, thank you.
Hoping Along…….(should that be hopping along?). I don’t think Marty is confused. To the contrary, I think Marty is seeing things as they really are…..the truth for what it is, for the first time in a long while…
In response to Windhorse and Alanzo: Yes and yes. I think Wilber summed up the mechanics of transcendence well in a single sentence: “the subject of one level is becoming the object of the subject of the next level.” Ideology, mythology and the like play no part in it. It seems that if they were interjected they could only foul that simplicity.
Thanks Jamie. You all (the whole family – four generations worth) have taught me a lot too.
Yeah. Even with cult welcoming (or unwelcoming) parties ambushing us we still managed to steer clear of their ditches.
Thanks Tom. We may be just missing as a matter of semantics. What does ‘cred’ instill or impart but ‘confidence.’?
Some may be interested to know if you are still willing
to give councelling.
We are especially fond of you (a phrase stolen from ‘The Shack’ – if you want to get the full concept). Despite my continually posting of positions that seemed to threaten to invade your boundaries, you always showed us love and support.
Thank you Karen for all your support through thick and thin.
Marty I look forward very much to your future posts.
I share your view re CO$ but look more positively to Scn outside CO$.
I have been reading FZ success stories and posting them as promotion for the FZ for 15 years or so, and still am, and consider that one is quite likely going to have a good chance of a beneficial outcome, and less often a negative one. Negative results have seemed mostly not getting what they want addressed rather than something more traumatic.
On the other hand for example a class VIII audited a friend and drove her to the brink, or perhaps past the brink of a psychotic break. The class VIII used the tech, especially ethics tech to dominate. Fortunately I know a somewhat heretical class VI who repaired matters via phone, and other non standard means. I was in effect acting as a Dof P and know how grateful the recipient was.
Then their is the fundamentalism of some who are very keen on KSW and other LRH writings. When Pat Krenik was told to do lower conditions for wanting IFA/APIS to list that she delivered upper levels I tore a strip out of their members and got the boot. This despite the fact that I used many of Pat’s success stories to promote IFA for 8 years or so.
Then I know some who are also keen on KSW and LRH who put the enhancement of the client as first priority and get excellent results.
It seems to be the case that those who have had stellar wins with Scn are much less likely to turn their back on it.
I’ve had many stellar wins. There are many who have questioned whether clear and OT exists. I don’t know about OT, it may exist when one is
disincarnate. However cleared theta clear exists as I’ve observed it. I separated from one on OT 2.
It has been a debate in the areas of psychology/psychiatry, whether good therapists are “born, not made”. In general it seems like they’ve either “got it”, or they don’t, aside from details of technique they might pick up in their training/study. Possibly we have seen enough to say that in general, you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear?
Yeah it is a different perspective. There are even third generation kids out there. At least my parents grew up in different religions. My mom was Episcopalian and my dad was 7th Day Adventist. So I went to both of those churches with my grandparents. But I always felt stupid there. I didn’t believe in Jesus, because of course he wasn’t real he was an implant, and I didn’t know the stories from the bible. So it was strange to be there experiencing people praising god and Jesus and believing that they were going to heaven when hey died, when of course I knew they were going to just get a new body after they died and heaven was bunk. I felt sorry for them. Like I knew the secrets of the universe and they were lower than me because they believed in the implant. Thank god I have straightened myself out enough to know I don’t know at all. I won’t know why lies ahead for me after I die until that happens. And that is alright. But that is part of being raised a Scientologist, the arrogance starts at birth, not just on staff. That came from my father. Not my mom. My mom, thank god, made me go to public school where I met all kinda of people. I experienced the real world enough before I allowed myself to be assimilated by the Borg that it was real enough for me to want to go back to it. I knew there were good people, who had never even heard of Scientology that existed and that they could and would help me. And they have.
This post and subsequent comments feel like a celebration – a party almost. It’s been wonderful watching the transformation of the blog, and so many of my – mostly new – and highly valued friends along the way. I second absolutely the comments above – especially The Oracle when she says “You kept your compassion, your human decency, integrity, dignity, and God given rights with out them being forced from your hand.” Terril asks if you will still offer counselling – I say you always have and always will; whether by means of blog postings or books – seems it’s in your DNA and for that I am grateful.
Interesting stuff Marty.
I think the organization is toxic and I also think there are flawed logic in a lot of the Scientology philosophy.
I have also found many valuable things in the philosophy and from auditing.
I think a lot of people could benefit from a watered down version of the Scientology construct. I think the grades and basic listening tech and to a large degree the auditors code has a lot of value. (amongst other things)
I don’t consider myself a Scientologist anymore because I do think there can be a time where you “EP” it (graduate it). That being said, if I was ever in a bad spot and needed someone’s help I would gravitate to a person who I trust who audits.
I think everyone finds there own way in all of this mess. Who knows where this will all end.
I salute you for what you did for the rest of us.
You blazed the trail to a very large degree with your courage, determinism and wisdom.
I really wish you all the best in any endeavor you choose. My best to your lovely wife and her case with the cult. I hope she is victorious.
Thankyou Terrill for publicly continuing to describe life in the freezone/Independent Scientology world!
What sites do you recommend Scientology subject observers to visit for ongoing sensible overview info?
I took you for years to be one of the go to persons to get a sensible overview of the freezone scene, and still do. Where do you post?
(I’m atheist, and completely anti, but wish to see what’s happening none the less.)
In an interview of Wilbur, he explains the meaning of “the subject of one stage becomes the object of the subject of the next stage” as follows:
“What that means if we look at structures, for example, is the self, your finite self, starts out identified with the archaic mind, and that’s your subject. And you stay subjectively identified with the archaic mind, in today’s world, for the first, oh, one to three years, and then the next mind, the magic mind, starts to emerge, and your self disidentifies from the archaic mind and identifies with the magic mind. The archaic mind is now an object. It’s something that can be seen by the magic mind. The subject of this level is now seeing the previous level as an object. In today’s world, the average individual stays with the magic mind until about five or six years old, and then the mythic mind starts to emerge. So while you’re identified with the magic mind as subject, you can’t see it, because it’s what you are. You are looking at the world through the magic mind, and therefore you can’t see the magic mind. It’s something you’re seeing with, until the mythic mind starts to emerge, and the self disidentifies with the magic mind—that now becomes an object—and it identifies with the mythic mind, which is the new subject. So now the self can’t see the mythic mind, but it can see the archaic mind, it can see the magic mind. In each of these cases, what’s happening is the subject of one level is becoming the object of the subject of the next level.” http://www.soundstrue.com/podcast/transcripts/ken-wilber2.php?camefromhome=camefromhome
In that interview, Wilbur also describes, as part of his Integral Life Practice, what he calls “shadow work.” Auditing would obviously fall in that category, per the description below. And, as I currently see it, if auditing doesn’t involve the ideology of the CoS, it is “very powerful” (as Wilbur described the other methodologies he listed). In fact, it may well be the most powerful, or it would seem to me that the word of mouth of anything more powerful would have spread more than it has (that I know of).
Here are excerpts from the interview about “shadow work”:
“Shadow” is just a general term for any unconscious aspects of yourself. These aspects are not just, they don’t just find themselves in the unconscious. They are put there. They are disowned aspects of the self. They are qualities of the self that are too threatening, or too dangerous, or sometimes just too positive and almost too beautiful to be accepted as part of myself. So I push them into my unconsciousness, and that basically takes them from a first-person quality—that means something that belongs to the “I” or the “me”—I push them away into a second-person—second-person means “you”—and then into a third person—where it can become “him” or “her” or “they” or “them”: “It belongs to them, not me.” It becomes an “it,” a third-person “it,” something that I don’t own, but that belongs to the world out there, and so some part of my “I” has been converted into an “it.” I’d say, for example, “The anxiety: It’s stronger than I am!” “My compulsion to eat: It’s more powerful than I am!” “My fear: I can’t control it!” so all of these things that actually belong to “I” now are perceived as being third-person, shadow “its.”
So the process of shadow work is re-owning all of these unconscious facets of yourself, whether they’re negative: anger, aggression, sex, power . . . Any of those can be disowned, pushed on the other side of the self boundary, and turned into an exterior “it” that appears out there in the world. Or positive things: Individuals are sometimes both much more beautiful and caring and loving than they admit, and so then they push those on the outside, and then they tend to hero worship. They shadow hug, whereas, if you project negatives, you tend to shadow box, and find demons out there in the world. You will then react to those demons in extremely negative ways.
There are many ways to work with shadow material—standard psychoanalysis, or Jungian, or Gestalt therapy is a very powerful, quick way of working with it—but, in spiritual practice, we want to include some type of shadow work, because spiritual practice, itself, doesn’t always get at the shadow. It can get to our transpersonal unconscious, and our spiritual unconscious, and help us awaken those, but it doesn’t necessarily get at disowned and repressed material. For that, you have to actually do a little bit of shadow work, itself.
That is good to hear Marty, I am all over the place sometimes. But I think I have just seen the last Fig Leaf fall in the commentaries on Tony Ortega’s blog.
This is what is inside the Scientology onion:
“As I’ve said many times before, I knew a hypnotist in the L.A. area who thanked me in the Foreword of one of his books, who told me how Sea Org members would come and pick up the “processes” Hubbard paid him to develop. As Jon pointed out, Hubbard was always stealing ideas and calling them his own.”
Thanks Marty, looking forward to it.
Just a thought from me:
Two or three years ago I ventured on your post through fiddling on the internet. I sought to be a voice of dissent not just to Scientology but towards Ron himself, and to be an independent voice that gives credibility to the vast potential on walking other spiritual paths.
In the beginning, my motive was seen by some, in the standard Scientology attack the enemy mode. I was called suppressive, wanting and enjoying enturbulating, wanting to invalidate wins, being a troll to be treated with scorn.
These standard Scientology attacks on my person were from people who decried the same behavior in the corporate church yet acted the same as the church in many ways.
As time marched on I started seeing the glimmer of other paths being brought up for viewing and a free flow of critical dialog that occurred in large part because of Marty’s devotion to his conscience as the final arbiter of things true and not true.
In recent days I feel like my job is done. The job of simply making space for reasoned criticism of Ron and Scientology and the spotlight put on the marvelous and wondrous potential to be had in seeking truth and freedom on the various valid paths available outside of Scientology.
I am grateful for every pat on the back and every stab at my character from this blog. It has allowed me to neutralize vestigial thought forms that I acquired as a youth in Scientology. Your blog has allowed me to revisit an ideology that does not serve me anymore and to reinspect and discard unworkable and untrue doctrines.
So I am feeling like I am almost done here. You are all my spiritual brothers and sisters. Even Mirildi ;-)).
My motive was simple:
Making it ok to be critical and showing the incredible potential available in other paths that Ron so egotistically booby trapped with self serving propaganda.
The free flow of ideas on your blog Marty is all I ever wanted. It is happening.
I think I need a new hobby ha ha.
Love to you all………. Including Mirildi!
Ralphie, you’re the greatest!
[audio src="http://www.mediafire.com/listen/2oyuvymjbxvyb7y/5204c+SESSION+-+Electropsychometric+Scouting+-+Battle+of+the+Universes.mp3" /]
Marty that is a great article.
“I don’t care what you say about me. Just be sure to spell my name wrong.”
(like you always do 😉 )
That was the point of having a Qual division – to ensure the details of the technique were being applied correctly, and to spot and handle any ulterior motives. Now, if that had just been successfully carried out…
Nevertheless, (in my humble but optimistic opinion) this and other parts of the tech that were intended to ensure high workability could still be successfully carried out – and further worked out, as needed.
The Church of Scientology touts the word “Freedom” in a lot of promotional materials.
“Freedom from the Reactive Mind” “Freedom from Overwhelm” .
Their propaganda Magazine is called “Freedom.”
But the dichotomy is that the longer one is in the “Church” the more trapped one gets.
Who one is permitted to speak with, who one can friend or must unfriend, how one MUST pay Money $$$$$ now now now, not to mention Sea Org enforcements where one’s body must perform with sleep deprivation, no freedom of passage in or off the Sea Org bases etc etc etc.
Whereas lower level parishioners are not challenged for “external influences”, OT VIIs, who are some $360,000 into the procedures of the Church, must confess *Crimes* every 6 months at a cost of $15,000 to $20,000 and are apparently the LEAST trusted of the entire community !
The higher up the Bridge to Freedom, the more you must OBEY and mold into Ethics Officers demands, Sales people’s demands, Office of Special Affairs demands and the more enforced sacrifices are demanded.
How can one possibly reach a higher state of consciousness or awareness or advanced spirituality while under constant THREAT ?
The Sea Org “Scientology Clergy” is a life of THREAT.
The RPF looms on the horizon, boot camps, hard manual labor on the “decks” low ethics condition assignments, Team Card system taking away more and more rights and the infamous “Pigs Berthing” where the person sleeps with other PIGS and is denied the right to go back to his bed and pillow at night to sleep on the floor.
In other words, it is ludicrous and fraudulent to promise spiritual advancement and better abilities in a climate of domination, threat and abuse.
The most astounding fact I have observed in the last 4 years, is the fact that I meet more and more folk who have had a 20 year 30 year 40 year journeys in the “Church” now state that they are no longer Scientologists, do not believe in any of it and will not even say that there was any benefit whatsoever.
Such is the damage that it has obliterated any positive.
The Church of Scientology produces the EP (End phenomena) on veterans who experienced it all ~~~”I am not a Scientologist and want nothing to do with it at all”. Freedom from the entrapment of the “Church” of Scientology !
Thank you, Marty, for another heart-warming post. I no longer consider myself a “scientologist” of any form and would not recommend scientology as a therapy or help to others. That said, if I or someone I cared about needed help I would not exclude anyone with a background in scientology if I thought they could provide the needed help. Are there useful constructs in the subject of scientology? Of course there are. Many of those I had seen in previous similar subjects or have seen in similar writings since. Did I use scn to my benefit from time to time? Yes. But I could have used other practices and in fact did prior. I can’t think off hand of one situation that I don’t feel I could have handled without the time and energy I poured into scn. More than once I noticed that I never wanted to promote it much to others. For anyone who knows me, I am not shy about promoting something I believe in so I guess there was that seed of doubt all along. I can still enjoy my relationships with people at any position relative to the subject as long as they will allow me my position as well and I promise not to try and convince anyone they are wrong.
Love to you and the family. Best wishes on all endeavors including the one in Comal County.
Wilbur really does rule! These are great quotes you found and posted marildi. He has done so much to synthesize and integrate what has been dichotomized in the past. Especially significant to me is including subject and object in his overall perception of life, rather than choosing one over the other as though one is more “real”. And i must thank Marty for heppin’ me to Wilbur and encouraging me to read him.
Marty you get me to think about and reflect on my experiences in Scientology…. for this, I am very thankful.
Along that line, I think LRH wove dark threads in the fabric of Scientology that were intended to forward the organization’s goals and not the people in the organization.
And, today as I stand back and look at the whole picture of my last 40 years in Scientology, the dark threads seem to almost color the whole fabric…. maybe that was the failure LRH was talking about, near the end of his life? The dark threads failed to achieve his organizational affirmations, take over earth, etc..?
Maybe someone will untangle the dark threads to expose more of the good cloth of Scientology? I don’t know.
Got it in spades Valkov regards your comment above to Curtis!
What I got were the tools to discover my own truths. The bitterness that used to be there has gone and I am left with joy and the prospect of more future discoveries. I look forward to sharing this technology (minus the politics and greed) with others..
Marty, I wish to make a concluding remark regards this post.
I have come to the same conclusions as your own cited above.
Moreover, your forum over these years has invited many to this discussion. Hence, it’s been a long and winding road but I sense and believe we’re all the better for it.
Thank you from depth of my soul for what you and so many others have imparted and shared.
Life is a road that doesn’t have an exit sigh.
Didn’t Ron try to be the ultimate spiritual traffic cop?
“Life is a road that doesn’t have an exit sigh.” I meant sign..
Sigh works too though…….
You are an optimist! As someone once was quoted as saying, “There are an infinite number of ways to do it wrong”. Qualing all would be auditors could be worse than herding cats. Can you imagine the programs, pogroms, blood feuds etc? I hear some of that already goes on in the Freezone? That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be attempted. There are plenty of inept if not downright dangerous psychologists and psychiatrists and social workers I’m sure. Now we can also have inept if not downright dangerous auditors too. In fact we already do. Life goes on…..
This is supposed to be a reply to marildi’s post about having working Qual…..
Hi – one of my replies got misplaced under Tom Gallagher’s post. About Qual – it would have to be damn good. According to some of Elron’s lectures, any auditor below a certain tone WILL do it wrong…….
Very well said, Val. And I too should thank Marty for heppin’ you, and then you (and my sister) for heppin’ me to Wilbur.
I think LRH was also talking about both the subject and the object, but expressed it in a different construct – basic truth (static) alongside the relativity of everything else. And he wasn’t actually advocating egoistic objectives but got caught up in an inevitable no-win situation in an attempt to make Scientology widespread or even to keep it from being wiped out. That is the exact situation described by Tom Campbell in the video below, in the last couple minutes beginning at about 13:00. But start a bit before, from about 12:40, where Tom states that the only fundamental of this universe is consciousness (his term for “basic truth”).
Right, but at a later point in time than those lectures, LRH developed TRs and other disciplines – which, for the most part, counteract a low tone level (whether acute or chronic). The auditor’s basic purpose and intention to help the pc remains, even though his/her chronic tone may have dropped down in the course of life.
In the reply to me that was misplaced, you wrote:
“You are an optimist! As someone once was quoted as saying, ‘There are an infinite number of ways to do it wrong.’ Qualing all would-be auditors could be worse than herding cats. Can you imagine the programs, pogroms, blood feuds etc? I hear some of that already goes on in the Freezone? That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be attempted. There are plenty of inept if not downright dangerous psychologists and psychiatrists and social workers I’m sure. Now we can also have inept if not downright dangerous auditors too. In fact we already do. Life goes on…..”
I recall that auditors routinely got crams from Qual on their flubs in TRs as well as other flubs. The really flubby auditors got put on retreads of relevant areas of their training, or on full retrains. And those who continued to flub after that (a rare few) were removed from post. At one time, at least, this system seemed to work pretty well and pcs were generally winning in the orgs I was familiar with.
A wise person recognizes things that don’t work for him and lets them go. A wise and compassionate person recognizes things that do more harm than good and warns others to stay away.
From the Tech Dictionary:
CRAMMING ORDER…2 . there is a certain technology on how to write up a cramming order: (1) isolate the exact outnesses in the folder; (2) order those HCOBs or PLs crammed; (3) now look in a slightly wider circle around the data flunked and get which basic is involved (i.e. Auditor Code, TRs, metering, handling the session, handling the pc as a being, etc.) and get that crammed, too…
Here’s one hot off the digital lines. Listen to it almost live with me.
From the blog post: “If you want positive reinforcement for your faith, you will not find it here; but for possibly in the comments section where scientologists are free to provide their views with everyone else.”
I’m not convinced that scientology is necessarily a faith, or has to be, but thanks for the general sentiment! I do appreciate that all of us are free to express our views here.
Credibility, in the modern sense, implies trustworthiness and expertise.
Those, demonstrated over time MAY result in confidence. You have cred in spades, others, not so much. As an aside, secondary components of credibility include source dynamism (charisma) and physical attractiveness. This seems to be the focus of the Radical CoS, to the exclusion of trustworthiness and expertise. I have seen auditors with the first two characteristics succeed,(even though somewhat lacking in the secondary ones.) On the other hand, the ones with just the secondary characteristics always fail in the long run.
Thank You FOTF2012! Perfect!
Ground level research.
Oracle got me started on this and it is opening up an entirely new line of understanding/ gain. It is far from finished, and the methods apply only to me at this time.
Reviewing past ethics conditions on 4, and occasionally 5 flows.
When she first mentioned this, my eyes opened up the size of half dollars. I got to a stopping point in my current work, authority and forced rules/laws in the earliest group activities. Accept, reject, obey, disobey, loyalty, betrayal, reward, punishment are all twisted together with this subject. Been working on this a long time.
From day one I never put ethics and justice in the same category. Ethics conditions were first touted as knowing the right thing to do at the right time in any dynamic activity. This dream never fully materialized in the church and decayed, for many, into punishment and endless free labor and money. But the general principles were sound although not exactly perfect for each individual. Done properly, one may need 5 hours on one condition and 5 seconds on the next. This never was practiced from my viewpoint. Ethics, as with auditing, are for the sole benefit of the individual. I never strayed from this most basic of principles.
But past unresolved, not understood ethics situations tie up a tremendous amount attention, conscious and unconscious. And they are not just what condition you were in as related to others. What condition were others in? What condition was your brother in when he was six and you were four. The time he told Dad about that chrome trim that you broke, thinking it was a play sword. What condition did you put your sister in when you told her friends stories from her diary. That fight with your first wife/husband over money. What condition before and after, was your Mom’s friend in when she got fired and you overheard it.
What formula or path of activity/thinkingness could have been followed to improve the situation. What errors were made which aggravated existing problems. WHAT CONFUSIONS WERE BORN/FOLLOWED AS A RESULT. How did it affect you. What decisions did you make, conscious or unconscious. HOW DID EXISTING ETHICS CONDITIONS AFFECT THESE INCIDENTS. Keeping in mind that ethics conditions exist, formulas were invented. Keeping in mind that the ethics conditions as laid out by LRH are not exactly perfect and the formulas are not precisely perfect for every situation or individual.
I have looked at 42 sets/chains of similar situations, related events, so far to resolve misunderstandings and confusions. This lifetime only, from the time I was a few weeks old. Not ready for whole track as yet. I’ve shed several old fixed opinions and have received 2 unsolicited calls from relatives to talk about old times. I think this is a very rich and possibly very productive area of work.
The work is obviously a gradient. Who you are and what you are, even when you are, are still not fully handled by current auditing, despite upper level attempts. But confusions en masse are there, ready to dissolve with this additional method of looking. Reviewing past ethics conditions on multiple flows. If this area is fully addressed in existing tech, please direct me to it. There are, of course, large gaps in my knowledge of all the mental and spiritual sciences.
Additional input is needed, please write. As Johnny Five, the little robot, said in the movie Short Circuit, “Input, I need input”.
I have already learned that in reviewing past ethics conditions I have to do it without regret, guilt, of feelings of failure. An attitude of “what would have corrected the situation” must be maintained. This line of work is ripe for cave ins. As I have also mentioned before, one must be perfectly happy not finding a resolution to something and coming back to it later.
“I came to realize that its [the subject’s] control and exploitation elements are so thoroughly embedded within the teachings of Hubbard as to make the journey more likely to be on-the-whole negative than positive” Now isn’t that what I’ve always said 🙂
Seriously, I like this posting of yours a lot, and the direction of inquiry that goes with it. One of the control mechanisms that I observe Hubbard instilling is the turning of any critical sense away from Hubbard and towards others. Another is to make the victim consider that they have a problem (“find their ruin!” – and the whole “the reactive mind is THE bad thing … yes, you’re right! there is no reactive mind!! have an OT course!!” shtick) and then blame the victim for not solving that problem in a permanent fashion. Or, I should say, those who are truly the victims of HUbbard’s scam, those that keep coming back for the only thing that makes them feel good (to the extent that they’re allowed to feel at all – see Jon Atack’s post at Tony Ortega).
So, without sounding like I think highly of ARC, Thank You, Marty 🙂
Wow, thank you Tom. From the youtube page, it looks like his vid was uploaded just yesterday.
Within the first 15 minutes or so, Peter Moon talks quite positively about Scientology in the 70’s and gives a pretty favorable description of LRH based on his experience working in LRH’s “Personal Office” on the ship. At about 12:20 in the video, he says “LRH was very convinced that he was trying to help people…and he WAS helping people…” Then he goes on to explain what happened to LRH that may have been what “led to a degenerative situation.”
I copied the following from the “About” section under the video on youtube:
00:01 Welcome to Buzzsaw.
00:30 Introducing Peter Moon.
01:00 The Church of Scientology through science fiction, spirituality, and L. Ron Hubbard.
08:00 Aleister Crowley and Alan Parsons connections, and a church of manipulation or liberation?
13:10 The culture of goals in Scientology’s higher levels and inventor Preston Nichols.
18:20 Time travel, mind control, The Philadelphia Experiment, and The Montauk Project.
30:00 Magical occult rituals, Babylon, and Marjorie Cameron.
40:00 Tibetan paganism, Buddhism, the Nazi connection with the Tibetan religion, and the Black Sun.
49:30 Romania, the influence of an evil alien overlord, vampiric orgys, and the philosopher’s stone.
1:00:30 Thanks and goodbye.
Thanks, Jim. +1
You and the blog have been a great help to me in sorting out my involvement with Scientology, Marty–thanks again for that and for all your work, I will continue to follow your evolution with interest.
I personally had many many wins using the tools LRH provided, but am not sure how to present them to the general public at this point. They are not the only tools, and I use others as well. And I would certainly warn anyone to stay away from the current organization.
I have decided that I am no longer an “Indie Scientologist”. I am certainly not a “COS Scientologist” either. I have decided that I am simply a “Scientologist” because I do make use of what I have learned in the subject to enhance my life and the lives of others. That’s why. And that’s all.
Scientology does not have to be a “faith” in my view either.
I use things I have learned elsewhere also because I find truth where I find it. I have also been “accused” of being a Christian, a Buddhist, a Quaker, and a Christian Scientist. I don’t get one confused with another but rather I find points of agreement in them all. They are just labels.
The purpose is forever and always to enhance Life.
And I too appreciate that through all of the metamorphoses that Marty has gone through on this blog, it has always been safe for folks to express their views here. And even though I just said I am a Scientologist, I think that he might still trust me just a little bit.
Judging by that this is happening nearly 30 years after his death, I don’t reckon he’d have cared if he’d known. He probably even did.
That was one hell of a journey you took. I remember the discussions in the beginnings of the blog. I seriously would not have thought it possible.
Thank you for lettings us share in this journey, and being honest about it. There are not many people in this world who would do that.
It has been far too long since I have given you my “thumbs up” publicly. So many times I have said to myself: “My thoughts, exactly.”
I thank you, Marty, for restoring my original purpose for getting into Scientology, which can be stated by the words on the masthead of your blog: “Moving On Up a Little Higher”.
Marty, not only have I enjoyed reading your blog for a long time now, but today for some reason a lot of the comments are really hitting home with me too. I think you’ve brought many people along your road of discoveries. As for my own road, it’s been hills and valleys and sharp turns, and possibly as a result of reading today it has levelled out into a cleaner highway easier to drive. It really is a journey leaving Scientology. Or scientology.
I’ve peeled apart the things I do know I like about it, which make sense and which I’ve seen completely with my own eyes create very good results. I’m glad I did find out about it and did all the training and auditing in the ’70s. I’m NOT glad that I ever got onto staff and later joined the sea org. That was a huge mistake and that’s the stuff I allowed to ruin my life and the good things I had already achieved as a student and auditor.
By peeling these things apart (they are definitely not one in the same!) I know what else I need to shake loose from as I continue to put my life back together. That’s what I’ll do on the rest of my travels on the highway I finally reached.
Thank you for being that catalyst–I would not be as free of all the inval, eval, nullification, etc. as I am now if it wasn’t for you, and I do feel I have a good chance of becoming Normal. LOL….’nuff said.
For cleared theta clear one should read theta clear.
Back and Forth: One should not trust a person that wears the badge of Scientology. In essence the Church of Scientology is appealing to the public to “Please kiss a criminals ass for your spiritual freedom”. Anyone who’s trained or not trained in anything would know, other churches in the world do not abide by such rules.
There have been many comments made over the years that some relatively low level techies are superb,and some very highly trained are not so much. I’d guess its difficult to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
However there is potentially no limit to what one might learn.
Its a bit like the nurture v nature argument. Both are factors.
I’d put Phil Spicklers website as up there with the best. He worked with and was a friend of LRH in the fifties was a class VIII, at least 2 SP declares. He has many video interviews on his website.
Here is an example of what can be accomplished with Scn when used by someone who genuinely has the clients interests as supreme. Note that Phil is extremely effective with book 1 and creative processing as shown here:-
Tatiana Baklanova has been making websites for independents and FZers for some time and has interviewed many and you can find several of her websites here and these also include video’s from several FZ conventions:-
“Justice, mercy, forgiveness, all are unimportant….”
-L ron Hubbard from “What is Greatness”
Cat Daddy, aren’t you a little bit embarrassed to take that out of context so bald-facedly?
“We can at least understand the one fact that greatness does not stem from savage wars or being known. It stems from being true to one’s own decency, from going on helping others whatever they do or think or say and despite all savage acts against one, to persevere without changing one’s basic attitude toward Man.
To that degree, true greatness depends on total wisdom. They act as they do because they are what they are—trapped beings, crushed beneath an intolerable burden. And if they have gone mad for it and command the devastation of whole nations in errors of explanation, still, one can understand why and can understand as well the extent of their madness. Why should one change and begin to hate just because others have lost themselves and their own destinies are too cruel for them to face?
Justice, mercy, forgiveness, all are unimportant beside the ability not to change because of provocation or demands to do so.
One must act, one must preserve order and decency. But one need not hate or seek vengeance.”
I coined a phrase one time: “You can know them by their posts.”
And I do trust you, Espiritu. 🙂
Marildi… ““No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it’s not the same river and he’s not the same man.” now if the meaning would be truly understood, than man would not be living in the past or in the future, let all go and enjoy the moment of now, since there is no more than now and the rest was on illusion. 🙂
Sometimes I mourn the days when life was simple:
I was SAVING mankind. Not just mankind the entire universe and those beyond. I knew more than almost everyone on the planet. (except for the handful of other members like me). I could GET THE JOB DONE, and MADE IT GO RIGHT. I didn’t fear death.
I never looked back.
Then my cozy world fell apart. I left the SO. 3 meals and a roof (not always pleasant but at least I wasn’t on the street and more importantly I had my tribe)
Then it got more complicated. Then I left that group. Then I found another and another. BUT STILL I always was smarter, and knew more. Because my tribes said so and affirmed me.
And then it got more complicated and I came to conclude I knew with a capital K … nothing.
You heard it here first — I no longer consider myself a buddhist or any other “ist”
My path is now centered on bringing as much peace and happiness into my life, those close to me and to as many people I encounter.
Perhaps at some point, I’ll take up an “activist” mantle but for now … it’s just a question of being as kind as I can be. As humble as I can be.
And much of this transition/transformation I owe to everyone here on this blog and Marty who put it here.
And to Mosey and the most adorable boy in the world. Williams James. Who contribute daily to keeping Marty centered, grounded and happy.
He did it on purpose, putting in these kind of soundbits that will be part of Scientology scripture for ever more.
He sounds so reasonable does he not
What Is Greatness? – L. Ron Hubbard – CERTAINTY Vol. 13 No. 3 [March, 1966]
The hardest task one can have is to continue to love one’s fellows despite all reasons he should not. And the true sign of sanity and greatness is to so continue…..
There are those who appoint one their executioners. Sometimes for the sake of the safety of others, it is necessary to act, but it is not necessary also to hate them. To do one’s task without becoming furious at others who seek to prevent one is a mark of greatness — and sanity….
If there is any saintly quality, it is not to forgive. “Forgiveness” is a much lower level action and is rather censorious. True greatness merely refuses to change in the face of bad actions against one…. Justice, mercy, forgiveness, all are unimportant….
Man is basically good but can act badly. He only acts badly when his acts done for order and the safety of others are done with hatred. Or when his disciplines are founded only upon safety for himself regardless of all others; or worse, when he acts only out of a taste for cruelty. To preserve no order at all is an insane act. One need only look at the possessions and environment of the insane to realize this. The able keep good order. When cruelty in the name of discipline dominates a race, that race has been taught to hate. And that race is doomed….
Never use what is done to one as a basis for hatred. Never desire revenge. It requires real strength to love Man. And to love him despite all invitations to do otherwise, all provocations and all reasons why one should not…. To love is the road to strength. To love in spite of all is the secret of greatness. And may very well be the greatest secret in this universe.
THIS is Hubbard covering his own behind:
“Justice, mercy, forgiveness, all are unimportant beside the ability not to change because of provocation or demands to do so.
One must act, one must preserve order and decency. But one need not hate or seek vengeance.”
As Dorothy ultimately learned, “There’s no place like home.”
Nice comment, Windhorse.
M&M it has been a journey we have enjoyed from day one that we found you “were still alive”!!!! we have so many great memories and look forward to seeing you all again soon. Love to you all!
I think you are either doing some “shadow boxing” or, worse, mimicking other critics who do it.
“…the process of shadow work is re-owning all of these unconscious facets of yourself, whether they’re negative: anger, aggression, sex, power . . . Any of those can be disowned, pushed on the other side of the self boundary, and turned into an exterior ‘it’ that appears out there in the world….if you project negatives, you tend to SHADOW BOX, AND FIND DEMONS OUT THERE IN THE WORLD. YOU WILL THEN REACT TO THOSE DEMONS IN EXTREMELY NEGATIVE WAYS.” — Ken Wilbur (my caps)
Yes, E, that’s the whole idea. 😉
Very important piece of research, that if you understand LRH’s later OT 3 materials and NOTs indoctrination theory issue, all makes “sense” if you believe in the soul, with the soul being something that separates from the body at death, and reinhabits baby bodies lifetime after lifetime!
It’s all believable, that’s for sure, but is it scientific, no it’s not. It’s not even provable to scientific rigors.
I think scholars should carefully argue if this is religion though, since many people will do past life trauma and soul explorations, looking for entities of long ago, that still affect their spiritual mind today, but they don’t consider that religion. Scientology likes to call themselves a religion, and others who are ex Scientologists don’t want to, and those doing past life trauma therapy, not Hubbard’s exact procedures, also don’t think they are doing a religious practice!
Have a long life Terril!
Do you think Ron’s Org, or Max Hauri’s Swiss group are a good example of a Scientology community?
And what of Ralph Hilton’s group(s) he’s run over the decades? Is Ralph still going?
Thank you very much for posting that, marildi. I really should get around to reading Wilbur. “So much time, so little to do” as Willy Wonka said when he and the winners entered the upside down world of the chocolate factory.
Glad you appreciated that excerpt too. 😉
I’ll just say that I do believe the whole Scientology experience to be more negative than positive. I came to that conclusion based on personal and observed experiences and outcomes. And that was enough reason for me to walk away from practicing the subject.
I take away knowledge both positive and negative that I use as life lessons to live in a better way and be a better person. But, I rely on myself to think and act as I see best and I don’t need a technology to be spiritual. I found it very confusing to try to sort the positive from the negative and try to be a 50% or 30% or what ever Scientologist. It was easier to rely on my common sense in different situations and move on.
I still have a few Indy Scientologist friends and I love them as long as they’ll have me.
Marty, you and Mosey have tried to help me live better from the first day I met you and before. That’s what I call a friend. We won’t always think alike or agree but, we will always be friends. That’s what I find sorely lacking among many Scientologists, you must agree with them or no friends, so sad.
Nah it just pisses me of that some asshole has abused a lot of people and his operation of abuse is still in bussiness by an other asshole.
“The blog continues to serve as a chronicle of my own journey guided by my conscience …..It may well even tend toward unrelated subjects.”
This is where your blog attracts my interest. I look forward to tales from the travels and insights thereupon.
Christine…. Happy journeying. Liked your one paragraph summary of your scn/sea org experience. After I decided I was done with scientology there was a period I was convinced that my former practice put me on a higher plane than most anyone else. What did they know? They hadn’t done OT3, NOTs, etc.
This seems fitting, somehow.
Chuck wasn’t this1952ties Scientology (Mary Sue and L Ron create the Scientology Cosmology) tape accidently sold to the public en mass somewhere in the 80ties causing a huge Flap ?
Cool comment Bro, don’t be a stranger.
here is my view on OFFENDING. 🙂 first of all to offend others is very easy.
To take responsibility not to offend someone when expressing the beliefs one lives by.. well, than [no offence meant by what I am writing next] shut you mouth…be silent.. than no one is offended!
Ohhhhh but I am wrong that, sooner or later some one will speak up and tell you all sort of things what is the matter with you because you are silent…not standing up and expressing your belief. 🙂
So silence wont work..
I feel one need to be a Saint in order not to offend others but again that wont work either; look down on the track of history: many of those poor Saints were done in for reasons because what they have believed is stood up for was offending! So they were Burned to crispy crunchy mass!
Now, be your self… Be your self?
Before one can be self one really have to figure out what that means and there is no such a thing as SELF in the Universe where Entities co-exist.
So one need to choose on identity.. a valance I am So and So and identify with that and use that valance-identity as a platform from where one expresses ones views.
And what is on offence in the first place? Something somebody could not confront and for that none confronted feelings-whatever they are blaming you, you are the cause, they have given you the power that you can do that to them. 🙂 OH The Poor Me bit, some people never get tired playing.
Well, Marty.. this is my nickel since cant say 2 cent because here in Canada the cents were taken out of circulation. 🙂
Write away…. do your thing and enjoy your creation!
I certainly don’t agree with everything Ron said or wrote. There are plenty of things to debate. But to attempt to discredit this article?
All I can say, in the local patois, is DAAAAYUUUUMN.
I guess “How To Handle Work” is next. Sorry, sarcasm is not my thing. I’m not very good at it. My apologies.
Thanks Marty for letting us in on the long and hard road you have
travelled. I have benefitted tremendously from it. At one point after
45 years in I trashed my library, my emeters, tapes, all handwritten
notes from the BC tapes and e/g Scientology. Then you started your
blog and I vacillated a bit. It has been tough to see you having had
gone through all the artillery the church has levelled at you so I can
imagine how it has been for you on the receiving end. Your resolve
to continue on despite it all is heartwarming to see. True grit.
Now your conclusions rings very true to me and very mature.
Wishing you the very best and yes, please continue your blog.
Karen, well said! The ultimate product of Scientology is a non-Scientologist.
“What is Greatness” is a beautiful writing! I’m very much in agreement with it.
-It is not Co$ policy.
-It is not how scientology operates nor scientologists are taught to operate.
-It is not how LRH operated. In fact LRH was very vindictive in his own life.
It is impressive that it was written about the same time when Guardian Office was formed and criminal operations escalated to new levels (eg. operation snow white).
Beautiful, Windhorse. Perhaps saving the world includes saving oneself and one’s friends. That sure seems like a good place to start. : -)
I think they are a very good example. They do more training than all other scientology organisations put together. For example they have 25 L’s auditors. AFAIK these would mostly not have done the SHSBC, but some have. Many would have done a considerable amount of auditing and are thus quite experienced. They have 1500-2000 active members per Max.
Despite doing excal instead of NOTs they are quite keen on KSW. All that I’ve spoken or corresponded with are very happy with their organisations.
If there are any internal squabbles I wouldn’t hear about them.
One of James Lewis’s students has or is still doing a thesis on RO’s and she speaks russian. She visited an RO ED who I put her in touch with.
James is planning to write a book about the FZ.
I don’t know if Ralph has a group but he still audits.
“As much as independent scientologists accuse the organization (RTC , CSI, et al) of operating on judgmentalism, arrogance, utiltarianism over conscience…I have found all those shortcomings just as prevalent in the independent field as in the organizations.”
– I hate to say it but I agree with that statement to a large degree.
As far as the general subject of Scientology goes, I believe that if a “perfect psychotherapy” were to be developed, that many of the processes of Scientology would transfer over to it (and/or be slightly improved when possible), but the general practitioners (“Auditors”) of the new subject would have a outlook along the lines of a Carl Rogers. The “PCs” would only need to do the processes and actions they were interested to do, and the he would be the highest authority on the programming of his own case.
Just 5 minutes ago my friend read me a quote which said: “Maybe it’s not always about trying to fix something broken…Maybe it’s about starting over and creating something better.”
At first I felt a little disappointed from reading your announcement Marty but now I’m not. I look forward to your future insights.
Me thinks you have done an unthrough job of really looking at what’s been happening in the FreeZone for the last 30 years, Mr. Rathbun.
Scientology can always be used as a control mechanism. But Trey Lotz, Pat Krenik, Rey Robles, the Freeman’s, the Warren’s and all the groups they started have all discovered that Scientology works ONLY when not used to control people, but to free them.
If you see people today who still try to use it to control people, it’s OK to ignore them and continue helping.
Marty, I just love the fact that you are running PR for the church again! Anyway…
I may be repeating a comment here that, in fact it, takes a tremendous effort to separate the scientology wheat from the scientology chaff. I spent over 40 years in scientology and trained through Class VIII and Class VI C/S. It has been and is an interesting and enlightening journey deconstructing all I know. The only way it can be done in my opinion is a complete and through study of the subject followed by a through study of comparable data and being able to come to your own conclusions from a self determined viewpoint. Exactly what you have been recommending and pursuing yourself.
In my opinion that process is extremely valuable and the personal benefits are huge. But given the difficulty and dedication necessary to achieve that result I have to agree that on balance scientology should not be recommended.
But I will say this: just auditing somebody through the Grades without digging them into the morass of scientology data in my experience is spiritually valuable. It could be true through Clear as well, I don’t know enough to say. Once you get into the OT Levels I believe it gets dicey. It seems that some people have great wins on those levels and for some it is a nothing or a disaster.
Talk to my friend Terril Park
Cat Daddy, let’s face it, neither you nor I have all the data. However, the following comments on the youtube page of that video indicate that others have made the same observations as LRH did. And I’ve read very similar views to LRH’s in other places as well.
The Gnostic Truth 9 months ago:
I’m aware of the “capture” incidents he’s talking about. Interesting. I’ve worked through those on my own. It seems as though he is talking about events which go on in the ethereal plane and which involve the programming of primary consciousness so as to be manipulable by the spiritual equivalent of a prison warden. The electromagnetic band he’s talking about, and the projection machine, are probably primarily something to do with the moon.
All this masks an original evil mind, and causes you to look for false causes for suffering, blame yourself, and never blame the real culprit. Sounds about right, actually. No wonder this organization was hated and persecuted, because it is actually harboring Gnostic information.
At the same time, they infiltrate and corrupt these organizations as much as possible as well. You mustn’t get involved in the false conflict (this org is a cult, this org is the salvation of the planet, etc). The whole world is much more complicated than that, and yet the final solution is much simpler.
Reverend Christopher Sophia1 month ago:
Hubbard knew the Truth about things, The Gnostic Truth, which is why the U.S. Government persecuted him so viciously his whole life. He attempted to avoid persecution by keeping information like this highly secret, but he was murdered, most probably by infiltrators from our own government, and Scientology was taken over by a Fascist regime and all the Tech was changed so that no one would ever again stumble upon these Truths or make any progress whatsoever. In the past few years, there’s been enough high-ranking members that have left that some of these confidential things have been leaked, but the genius that was L. Ron Hubbard has yet to have his glory shine forth among men due to a massive amount of slander, lies, and nonsense that has been written about him. Keep in mind, the current Church of Scientology IS NOT AT ALL what Hubbard had in mind or wanted. Listen to his lectures from the early ’50’s through the 1960’s. He was positively Divinely inspired. Then something happened, and everything went sour. I suspect that it was a combination of factors, not the least of which was his excessive drug use.
Marty I come back to you after my silly ranton all blogs ad post this:
I came to the same conclusions as you did. Sometimes I felt as a victim, but realized soon it’s better to look at it as interesting experiences I made, to learn from.
More I can free myself of the Scientology universe , more I learn from the real universe.
Currently I’m reading “Thinking, fast and slow” by Daniel Kahnemann. I can imagine that he changed the lifes of many people with his ” Scientific discoveries” about the mind. The guy got a Nobel prize for his work about the mind.
I’m very interested in hearing about what you and others think about his work.
Here an article about him in the guardian:
Hubbard Lied a lot
Can you denie that ?
1966 when he fled like a COWARD
“A platitude is a trite, meaningless, or prosaic statement, generally directed at quelling social, emotional, or cognitive unease. The word derives from plat, French word for “flat.” Platitudes are geared towards presenting a shallow, unifying wisdom over a difficult topic. However, they are too overused and general to be anything more than undirected statements with ultimately little meaningful contribution towards a solution. Examples could be statements such as “Meet in the middle”, “Everybody has a right to an opinion”, “Everything happens for a reason”, “It is what it is”, “Do what you can”, “God works in mysterious ways” and “Nobody’s perfect”. Platitudes are generally a form of thought-terminating cliché”
I disagree with focusing almost exclusively on his lies, without putting them in perspective – and without giving credit to the truths he forwarded, which have at least as much importance.
Well Cat, you got me. You caught the ‘Tater’ (Ref. Ron White, comedian, AKA, ‘Tater Salad.)
Mr. Platitude, that’s me. I’ve been doing that review of past ethics conditions 4 or 5 flows and I’m having a great time.
Did you know that if my band teacher, back in 69, had followed the proper danger formula, with a couple of minor corrections, he would have had a stellar career as a high school band director. If he had followed the Non-E formula a few years earlier he would have had great success as a musician. He was an excellent singer and talented musician.
My mother could have been quite happy as an elementary school teacher if she had followed a few simple steps. Instead, she got pissed off at the organization, and then the kids, and quit. My, my, the effects I could have caused if I had only known.
But my brother, and my lady, and my sister in law, and my daughter are all happy that I have a good grasp on social and business dynamics. I have assisted them in several undesirable situations recently. More importantly, I have gotten to them some info which will assist them in the future without my help.
These are the facts that matter, I believe.
PS: A friend of mine told me (hearsay) that they talked to someone who worked with LRH. Said emphatically that he was (claimed to be) Cecil Rhodes in his last life. Multiple sources have written that Rhodes was a homosexual. Go figure. Doesn’t take away from the value of ‘How to Handle Work’. I use it every day.
Facts are a funny thing. Some are more factual than others.
As it should be!
Thanks. I am really fuzzy on when TRs were instituted. The lectures I am thinking of are from 1955 – 1956 or so. I guess that was before TRs?
Nicely said Windhorse. I share your thoughts and humility. No more organized this or that or isms, asims or whatevers.
“That’s what I find sorely lacking among many Scientologists, you must agree with them or no friends, so sad.”
I completely agree with this, Laura. A fellow who I helped introduce to the e-meter, who is now auditing others, and who had never done much of anything in the “church” before recently said to me that he wished that all Scientologists would put their attention more upon what they have in common instead of being fixated upon where they disagree. In my opinion, his cognition is a good life lesson for anyone and applies to all people. What a person thinks is of almost no importance compared with how they treat and regard others.
Marty, this applies directly to this article.
This was a reply to a letter from Erzsebet. She gave me the last bit I needed to see this. Yourself, Alonzo, Marildi, Vinaire, Brian and many others were instrumental in recognizing this.
You are amazing. I love you. Last night I was contemplating that exact thing concerning, training, study and false cognitions. How did you know? I have been chewing it over in my mind for some time, but it just came together for me.
A PC/PreOT being fed someone else’s knowledge which then pops up as a cognition in auditing. It becomes then, a false cognition. This is a much bigger problem than I thought. All so called ‘knowledge’ that is not truly basic is invented, made up, secondary, and agreed. Knowledge, when handed to you, has a price. Someone reads that witholds will cause people to natter. He understands it completely, he has no MUs, he even sees a couple of examples of it in life. The principle is actually, for the most part true. But the knowledge is not completely, truly his own. In session, the PC sees an incident and says “Of course, he was nattering, he had witholds all along, now it all makes sense.” But no, it isn’t a full resolution, the cognition was not his alone, the understanding is not complete. It was fed to him. He thinks he has it and gets an FN, but at worst it is a completely false cognition and at best it is somewhat incomplete.
I have noticed from reports and observations of Scientologists and Independents alike, that often a new person can be sat down in a chair, clear the commands, get some auditing and get great big wins. Back in the early 50’s people often got huge gains in a short time. Now, people seem to get wins early on but it is fragile and iffy. Later, on upper levels, a few get big stable gains, but not what they used to, and many lose their gains or were never really sure about getting them. Also, my Father once mentioned
that the SHSBC grads he had met were all a bit wacko. He met just a few. I finally realized the connection. Force fed and blindly accepted data.
I have been, amongst several other things, reviewing my own past auditing. As I discover more and more basics of life for myself, I thought it wise to go over past auditing to see if there was more to some things that I was not able to get at, the first time around. Then I read Marty’s post stating that Scn. is interwoven with destructive knowledge. I was looking over a comment by Alonzo which said to the effect that cognitions in auditing were false or imagined or something like that. That my real wins were mine alone and not the result of Scn.
Then it clicked.
The knowledge I had acquired through Scn. and Buddhism and the Tao and friends and philosophers was secondary and junior to my own knowingness. It wasn’t really my own. THIS WAS REGARDLESS OF WHETHER IT WAS TRUE OR NOT. That is not to say that a basic principle or some common mechanical principle could not become fully and completely useable. But it would take a lot more than just word clearing and a couple of life examples. And it would be arduous for large amounts of data, and much of it would have to be thrown out. Vinaire is helping.
It has been said that auditors make the best PCs. That someone trained, well read in LRH tech and knowledgeable, “Knows what to look for.” This is not completely false, BUT IT IS NOT TRUE. Here we have a problem. How to get real, lasting gains, cognitions that are truly your own. Studying LRH within an inch of your life, and then past track auditing on every paragraph is not a viable, workable answer. Being force fed 4.3 million words, whether true or not, is a sure route to insanity, as has already been demonstrated. Knowledge is key to sanity, serenity and salvation. But how to get it, how to give it. How to sort through it. How to get consistent, lasting, real cognitions, realizations that are truly your own, not fed to you, with the resultant partial, subtle confusions which build up BPC.
If no one has developed a broadly workable solution, this must be my project for spring of 2015. I have a lot to do before then and I want to get it right, for everyone.
Thia was meant for Alanzo as well.
I am one of those people that, when he hears or reads someone engaging in platitudes, as their modus operandi, sort of yawns on by and ignores that person. I don’t do it out of spite. I do it because I’m interested in an intelligent discussion, whether I later agree with the person or not.
I, personally, do not believe you to often engage in platitudes, Mark — not from the little I know of you from what I have read here on Marty’s blog.
So, sometimes we do express one. That’s fine.
Do not invalidate all that you may have learned in scientology. It’s not all false and made up. I strongly believe some of the data to be true and applicable to life. Some of it may not be, some it may. It’s up to you to decide what’s workable for you or not. This is true of any philosophy, whether religious or secular.
I looked it up on a materials chart, and I see that the 4th London ACC was in 1955. The earliest HCOB on TRs that I could find is “Training Drills” 12 Apr 61, “Training Drills.”
It starts off with “These TRs” are those released to the 18th ACC,” which, per the chart, was in 1957.
And at the bottom of the HCOB is this: “HISTORY: Developed by L. Ron Hubbard in London in April 1956, from the principles of body mimicry developed by L. Ron Hubbard in Camden, N.J., in 1954.”
The next HCOB on TRs is “Training Drills Modernized” 17 Apr 61, which states:
“The auditing skill of any student remains only as good as he can do his TRs.”
“HISTORY: Developed by L. Ron Hubbard in Washington in March 1957 to train students to confront preclears in the absence of social tricks or conversation and to overcome obsessive compulsions to be “interesting”. Revised by L. Ron Hubbard April 1961 on finding that SOP Goals required for its success a much higher level of technical skill than earlier processes.”
Good on posting a lot of things Cat Daddy. Many people go through life after exposure to the deranged organizations that comprise the corporate Church of Scientology world thinking “How could I have let this happen, please help”. THEN…one goes on the internet for example or watches TV and then hears stories like or similar to the one you posted here in your video and the perspective changes to “I knew I was right about those criminals all along”. Correct. My feeling exactly, but I went to a Church of Scientology to go Clear not to leave with an attorney and a lawsuit pending against the church. Isn’t that just case blowing the way LRH tech “when properly applied” results not in Clears but LAWSUITS! 🙂 A lot of people don’t like to hear that but the fact of the matter is if LRH wrote it and is it being applied it is only for 2 reasons:
1. It is either not being applied or
2. What is being applied is something flawed LRH wrote for people to apply.
The Guardian Office and OSA are a good example ot BOTH of the above.
Thanks for this Marty. Reading your blog and some of your recommended readings and the comments and links etc. has done wonders for me for one.
Comparing where I was 4 years ago – my husband had nearly died in an auto accident, I read Amy’s book, my husband took and his life in my presence leaving a horrible mess in my spiritual universe as well as the physical including everything I owned put in storage and me in a mental hospital. I was in pretty bad shape! Then leaving publicly and losing 2 kids well anyway I can now honestly say because it’s how I feel in my heart it was all worth it. I have learned so much of the only things that have ever been important to me and I’m not done. I will leave scientology behind when I can put in a very short paper simply why I got in, why I stayed, how I got out and what I learned.
I’m sorry to hear that your working one-on-one to help others out has not worked out that well. I think the blog has worked just fine for me. I don’t wake one day without being grateful for all the persons who have helped me evolve and I’m just about to a point where I have no more fixing to do of my self and I can again help others. I figure maybe another year…. 🙂
Awesome post, Cece.
Mark. Hope You are well. I would like to hear and Update on Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam. If You have any connections who can update me. I have a friend I need to get this to. My Respect to You.