Scientology Golden Ages

This essay does not stand alone.  It will not make much sense absent first reading the essay ‘Standard Scientology.’

There is a rationale behind David Miscavige coming out with ‘Golden-Age’ campaigns.

Consistent with the essay ‘Standard Scientology’ (and chapter 25 of Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior) there is every necessity to continually revise, re-revise, compile, re-compile and re-issue the words of L. Ron Hubbard.  And thus there is some logic behind the Golden Age of Tech, the Golden Age of Knowledge and the Golden Age of Tech II – the three major Miscavige directed re-compilations of Hubbard.  Whether you agree with the way the church of scientology went about it is an entirely different matter.  But, moaning about the fact of the re-compilation is about as sensible and effective as complaining about the weather.

The original Golden Age of Tech was done in response to virtually all of the established technical hierarchy of scientology (Class XIIs, mainly trained under Ron’s regime) being about as capable of applying scientology fundamentals as the leading electro-convulsive shock therapy psychiatrists were.  I know, I was there, having been the only one in scientology who I am aware of to train uninfluenced by the scientology technical hierarchy.  Nearly all of the Class XIIs at Flag could not read an e-meter, could not deliver a crisp command, and did not apply a single tool effectively for salvaging a session gone south (which occurred frequently).  Quite a few of them could not make it through an entire session without dozing at some point.  When put on a correction program directed by me personally, by personal observation the majority of the Class XIIs were by modern societal standards nut cases.  About 90 percent of them were incapable of correction.   One reason for that was that they were convinced that the only valid correction was to ‘blow’ the body thetan who suggested that they screw up in the first place.  “It was misownership; not my overt” was the common refrain; and once the body thetan was addressed, they exclaimed gleefully “it’s all handled now!”  Not only had they bought Hubbard’s space opera constructs literally, that universe view was running their lives helter skelter.  I have written earlier that had the XII’s remained in boot camp with me to learn communication training routines the hard way and how to naturally and accurately handle a meter I believed that 90% of the problem would have been solved. But, alas Miscavige’s and the Class XII heirarchy’s killing of Lisa McPherson ended that program.

Having had six years of experience watching what passes for ‘independent scientology’ outside the walls of the church, having deconstructed the subject through intensive study and practice, I have come to the conclusion that there was something even more fundamental than Training Routines and metering that needed to be addressed.   It is covered in the post ‘Standard Scientology.’   Virtually every Class XII in the church at the time – those at Flag, those on the ship and those at the International base, including Senior C/S International Ray Mithof – were empowered to squirrel to their hearts’ content by none other than L. Ron Hubbard.  They, much like some of the die-hard scientologists who continue to frequent this blog or have disconnected from (while claiming Miscavige is a squirrel for allegedly reinstating the disconnect policy) and declared war against me, could and did regularly come up with an LRH reference to justify just about every technical crime imaginable.  And they routinely committed them.  You doubt that statement?  Then how could L. Ron Hubbard’s Class XII technical hierarchy from his ‘Mecca of Technical Perfection’ effectively kidnap a non compos mentis woman out of the hospital, imprison her for seventeen days, and ultimately kill her?  Lisa McPherson is only one of many products of the scientology ‘Mecca of Technical Perfection’ that went mad under scientology processing there.  And she was not the only one to die in the process.  That is impossible in an environment that has not committed every other crime and misdemeanor routinely for quite some time.  Certainly, I have made a strong case for pinning primary responsibility to Miscavige for McPherson’s fate. Just as certainly, by statistics the frequency of suicides and psychotic breaks among Flag public drastically declined after Golden Age of Tech implementation.  Some might argue that that is due in large part to heightening of restrictions against people prone to psychotic breaks being allowed on church premises.  Well, that is as it ought to be.  Scientology is eminently unqualified to practice in the field of mental health that its founder sought to take over.

In either event, Miscavige attempted to solve the problem by bypassing the Class XIIs lack of responsibility and understanding by making everything rote for them.  He was precluded by Hubbard policy from doing the type of radical, fundamental compilation the subject requires. That is, compilation of what ‘to do’, instead of what ‘not to do’, and communication of it in plain English.  He tried all manner of tweaking in order to overcome the inherent confusion of millions of words of dianetics and scientology trial and error, none of which could ever be accurately labeled as ‘background’, ‘historic’, or ‘no longer used’ because of firm policy prohibiting that.  And so he attempted to covertly do so through the via of hundreds of packs of drills – heralded as the Golden Age of Tech.  That effort provided endless fodder for organization-spurned scientologists.  A wave of disaffected scientologists arose, seizing on the fact of organizational revision to justify their continuing loyalty to their own interpretations of Hubbard’s incomprehensible – conflicting evolutions and devolutions must all be accepted as Gospel – body of work.  Certainly, I exacerbated that prairie fire with my continuing loyalty to Ron Hubbard.

Miscavige became increasingly frustrated as his new Age resulted in continuation of declining delivery and income statistics.  At some point he apparently threw up his hands in disgust and decided ‘to hell with it, you all listen to everything Ron said and sort it out for yourselves.’  Hence, ‘Golden Age of Knowledge.’ Given scientology’s unalterable policies forbidding any sort of rational compilation, it was not a wholly irrational measure.  It took something like that for me – done on my own – to fully appreciate what is effective and what is not and what is destructive in the legacy Hubbard left behind.  But, I am not bound – as all those considering themselves scientologists are – to submit to allegedly more informed, or more ‘with Ron’ or more ‘ethical’ or more ordained scientologists’ arrogant enforcement of Hubbard’s other writings outlawing such understanding and subsequent application.  It should be noted that that arbitrary, arrogant policing priesthood too was created by Hubbard and invested with paramilitary powers.

I have yet to review the second major phase of re-compilation heralded as Golden Age of Tech II.   It is possible some of the thorough re-compilation I have noted here that is required was assayed with that. Given the continuing absurd lust for lucre apparent in scientology promotions and the terroristic and counter-productive ways in which the organization continues to spend the take, it does not seem very likely to me that the job was approached with a motivation approximating that required to do an effective job.  Moreover, as my next book will explain in some detail, the better the job in enforcing ‘standard’ is ultimately a better job at enforcing mental imprisonment.  In that regard, habitually lamenting the alleged colossal balls up of Golden Age Of Tech II is a disservice, keeping potentially recovering scientologists caught in the paralyzing cognitive dissonance that something can be done to salvage something that if done more ‘standardly’ will only serve to entrap more people.

Even if Golden Age of Tech II were effective, however, it is likely doomed in the longer track of scientology.  That is because if it was effectively done, some bands of true believer scientologists in the future will no doubt ‘discover’ the grotesque violation of fundamental scientology tenets prohibiting such bold compilations.  In fact, some have already figured out how to make a living by condemning it sight unseen; a practice that capitalizes on keeping potentially recovering scientologists locked into a cognitively dissonant state of false hope.  All of this continuous, finger-pointing nonsense is one of the many inevitable pitfalls of converting a purported ‘modern science of mental health’ psychotherapy into a religion.   It is ordained by a system whose most advanced levels teach that ‘standard technology’ can only be realized by ‘commanding’ acolytes and not by appealing to ‘reason.’   It too is inevitable given the facts spelled out in Standard Scientology.

My sincere advice to any people still caught in this vicious circle is to move on.

470 responses to “Scientology Golden Ages

  1. Good advice. Some of the best people I have ever known have been Scientologists – and some of the worst, as well. There was a wide, wide range. All of them purported to be using “Standard LRH” or some such. Obviously, not all of them were – perhaps none of them were. Add to that some peoples’ tendencies to preach to others, and to dominate others, and you get a hell of a mix.

    Ultimately, I would add this advice as well: Use what works, read (and use) other sources, don’t be bullied one way or another, and own your own soul.


  2. I just retread “Standard Scientology” and then came across the lectures Cat Daddy posted. In the first LRH talks about the psychoanalytic concept of “transference”. It was astonishing b/c he did not understand what the term meant to the least degree, but he bloviated on anyway. Interestingly he thought transference meant the therapist transferring their personality onto the patient, which is actually what his own personal goal was. All those attacks on a subject that he never understood. Hilarious if he hadn’t (sadly) convinced so many people. Listening to this made me finally agree that LRH is the real root cause of the problem, he spoke like a madman.

  3. Marty, that really belittles me! 🙂 But, I believe Pierre Eithier is the best Class XII auditor in the world. Which is why he is not in the church, but out in the world doing the greatest good for the greatest number. 🙂

  4. martyrathbun09


  5. I read the essay ‘Standard Scientology’ again. It is a classic.
    The more one wants people to think and behave in a ‘standard’ way, the more force is necessary. Hence the paramilitairy organization of Scientology.

  6. Another great essay Marty.

    I can see everything you say here.

    The one thing that seems odd to me is that despite all of the gross out tech and madness from the Class XII auditors they in some cases (I think) produced rave results. People sure paid a lot of money for what they seemed to think were good results.
    Not sure if you felt this (I say “out tech”) or maybe better said unworkable techniques, went all the way down the line? I assume they did. Yet, even still again, major gains were had by people as at least communicated by them.
    This leads me to believe that despite the insanity within the cult there is SOMETHING there that produces great results. Those things isolated and the rest of it rejected by someone sane and intelligent could be fantastic.
    I think some peoples call for “not changing the tech” or “KSW” may be the urge to keep something in place that does produce some results as opposed to risking someone “intelligent” who thinks they are wise enough to “change” it successfully. In my mind I think both could be good. As it stands now there seems to be many versions of “standard tech”. I look forward to a total rebel who only looks at what is truly workable and takes a more scientific approach (even though LRH railed against Scientists too) to isolate the major workability of some of the things encompassed in Scientology.

    You make dm look almost sane in his attempts to handle some of the major flaws in Scientology. Too bad he didn’t have the courage, intelligence and intestinal fortitude to really take the bull by the horns and handle it anyways. If he was smart and really handled true out-points maybe he could have been successful instead of doomed.

  7. I am just sorry about Lisa McPherson though. My mother recently died and she looked like Lisa McPherson when she went to the hospital. 🙂

  8. Class XII nut cases with out TRs and Metering…wow, I get it now. And no one but ‘source’ (because he is the most ‘infallible’) could be the one to fully correct the subject. But everyone subconsciously hopes the next release will somehow overcome that barrier. An endless forlorn dream. Wake up people.

  9. ‘Reason’ can only be appealed to where ‘reason’ exists.

  10. I also remember the Class XIIs and, most of them, having being trained in the past by LRH himself kept talking about various anecdotes on “how things were supposed to be done per XII standards”. In other words, they were somehow stuck in having being trained by the old man himself which, if one really looks at it, was like having absorbed his beingness, thus loosing their own. Some XIIs fell on a “know best” parameter because they knew it all. And, as pointed by you, were empowered to squirrel.

    Some were very hard to correct as, per Standard Scientology posting, this technology was obliterating any other viewpoint and the XIIs fell into the blind alley where no variation was acceptable.

    The ones I knew were not evil or ill-intended, simply stuck on ‘standard’ and a certain beingness (arrogance really) of being the top of the top.

    And because I share the observation that continuing (delivery of ‘standard tech’) only perpetuates the introversion, dependence, “is because of my case”, lack of progress as an individual himself, et al that I have moved on sometime ago and I am glad I did. Thank you Marty

  11. Mark N Roberts

    Marty, Marty
    Thanks. I have not read all of your writings as of yet, but will endeavor to complete them. My question: How do you separate the Cl-6s, Cl-8s and 12s who got their s**$ together and those who have gone moon bat crazy from the experience? I see reports of both. An actual question, not just a curiosity point.

    My father had pointed out, 30 yrs ago, that all the briefing course grads that HE had met were a bit psycho. I have since attributed it to being force fed huge amounts of information that they, themselves could not evaluate and fully assimilate. Not to mention, actually discover, for themselves, if it was actually correct. A disaster for anyone in any field. I have not had the opportunity to investigate if my IDEA is accurate.

  12. Marty,
    Thank you for one of most well-written and sensible posts I have ever read on your blog. You certainly have a grasp of the major flaws in the technical side of the “religion”. Of great importance, you are also shedding light and truth on the Lisa McPherson disaster.

    Great job,

  13. Well, that helps me to understand some of your viewpoint on “the OT III phenomena” – whatever that actually may be.

  14. Mark, I’m curious if those Class 6’s your father talked about were interned, if you know. You are probably right that they basically had a lot of information that they had not put it into practice. At one point in time, I believe Class 6’s had not even done earlier internships (Class 4 or 5) but were supposed to do all internships at the end of all their courses. That later got corrected to where one had to do an internship before going on to the next course.

  15. Elucidating? Enlightening? Entertaining?!? Something else?????

    Perhaps all of the above and more?

    All I can say Marty is thanks for these commentaries.

    Here I am and I’ve moved on.

  16. Have any of the Class 12s asked for clarification? and some specific details of just who is being referred to?

  17. Marty had made a lot of progress in the last years or so. These recent posts by him will help a lot of people. I can see he’s still sorting out things. Full speed ahead Marty. And thanks.

  18. Silvia ~~
    Please name the Class XIIs you state were trained by Hubbard that told you these anecdotes.
    By the 1990s, there were no Apollo Class XIIs even around in the Class XII HGC, all gone or declared.
    OJ Roos (Declared)
    Liese Klingvall (Declared)
    Tommy Klingsvall (Declared)
    Mike Mauerer (Departed the Sea Org 3x)
    Leon Steinberg (Declared)
    Quentin Hubbard (deceased)
    Brian Livingston (Declared)
    Merril Mayo (Declared and deceased)
    David Mayo (Declared)
    Jeff Walker (Declared)
    Murray Chopping (Declared)
    Alex Gerber (Declared)
    Robin Lindsell (Declared) (deceased)
    Paulette Ausley (Declared)
    Karen de la Carriere (declared)

    No others Class XIIs were on the Apollo or trained by Hubbard.. The next generation such as John Eastment, Greg Wilhere, Ron Shaffron, Russ Meadows, etc etc trained at the Flag Land Base and were not Apollo trainees.

  19. As Director of Special Affairs in Dallas I conducted a field investigation (Abilene, TX – 2001-2003) into reports of massive fraud and activities of serious threat to the reputation of Scientology in the area.

    This finally led, after months of hard work and late nights, to discovery of a high-pressure courting of a medical doctor to invest her life-savings into this Scn company, in order to salvage their ponzi scheme spanning two decades through Kentucky to West Texas, with investors from all over the world – most of them Scientologists.

    (Yes, the SEC had been notified by whistleblowers who he’d attempted to “fair-game” as “squirrels” – though I flatly refused to shelve their reports.)

    A newly-departed former Class XII (those of the tech hierarchy will easily figure out who she is) had been recruited to “handle” this woman and had put this doctor “on the cans” for an interview and auditing.

    As most any barely-trained staffmember would know, the interview was to ask for sources of trouble and note these down and do auditing actions to smooth things out.

    This “XII” had apparently been so corrupted by the prospect of facilitating a transfer of money, that she was willing to call off the lady’s brother (who was her ally and an attorney high up in the government) as a person the lady would be required to “disconnect” from, and her protests were not only ignored, but argued against.

    Needless to say, the ploy did not work and the lady subjected to this was upset for a long time. She lived thereafter in terror of reprisal as it dawned on her that these were criminals who would do anything – lie, trick and steal – to get her money.

    Now, putting aside for a moment that the whole thing was obviously motivated by greed, one would think that at least a Class XII of all people, could at least make a person feel good about having handled her case in some way. But no, the diametrical opposite was done.

    As a matter of fact, this created upset with the attorney brother (which any legal/OSA staff can tell you, goes against LRH’s greatest fears which he enshrined in policy – the dreaded “PTS type A” situation where the organization gets sued) and Scientology’s infamous, corrupt, money-centric operating basis stayed on the brink of full verification and exposure in that area for years.

    Near-total freedom with near-zero responsibility.

    After accumulating a banker’s box full of reports, and cross verifying the wilder ones, I began to think of Abilene as our local, spiritual version of “Apocalypse Now” – complete with its rogue and insane colonel (who said he’d interned under LRH direction at Flag for the “Commanding Officer hat”).

    I have no problem whatsoever believing that conditions were as bad as Marty states. This post just brought it sharply into view.

  20. martyrathbun09

    Thanks for that interesting report Scott.

  21. Thanks for shedding more light and more truth Marty. For keeping it real. This was hysterically funny for me, having worked / lived at the base for five plus years. You write of things that I noticed myself.

    There is a wide distance between noticing something, and a “critical thought”. This gets very gnarly in people’s minds.

    It seemed to me that all of the staff were driven half mad, and in a state of constant current traumatic stress syndrome. The Sea Org is a government, and the staff, are government dependents. Even after they leave, many seem unable to move with out orders, missions, structures, vocabulary, or able to provide for themselves. Or adjust or expand in identity. Not sure if Bill Gates could have functioned to accomplish anything in the conditions these people lived in. Seriously.

    I wouldn’t have a clue what was possible or not with Scientology, given that it’s foundation was planted in such unusual human misery, sacrifice, communistic cultures, fear, punishments, self abasement and the smallest of rewards as a GROUP. The group is all and the individual is nothing, it is right there in K.S.W. when one is told the lives of every man and woman and child depend on what you do. It turns out, the lives of everyone but YOUR OWN, matter.

    Hubbard advised people to do what he would do.

    He never lived the life of a Scientologist, seriously. Either has David Miscavige. David doesn’t have a clue what people are talking about on these forums and blogs, he couldn’t possibly know.

    I thought I could help, the staff, I could see how burdened they were. They were so ingrained to sacrifice, they could not accept help. They never ever ask for help. It is always “help for the Church” (David Miscavige). It was a real 3D GPM. The help , a highly charged area anyway, was in a total enforced must have / can’t have.

    I couldn’t continue as a public, watching them. It was like, “I am I really going supposed to be on the road to glory at the expense and over the dead bodies of all of these people?”

    The truth is, it is a government. A communistic government. A regime. With Miscavige at it’s helm.

    People think it is a church, a religion, a self help center, all kinds of things. I think these are all wrong items. The correct item for me, was that it is a separate country within a country, with it’s own government and it’s own culture.

    I see people leaving communist China, and taking what is good with them. The food, the kindness, the determination, the love of family. And God knows those people have suffered. It irks me when someone complains that they eat dog. How do you supposed that got woven into the culture against the back drop of thousands upon thousands upon thousands dying of starvation against the back drop of communism?

    But I see people leaving oppressive govnerments and cultures, and taking what is good with them and bringing it here. From all over the world. And we live in this great place called America.

    And you have these Sea Org Members, hallucinating that the world around them here is not fit to live in, unless they are in Sea Org berthing. While they create conditions far worse to exist in. And they are kept there with false information. From their team mates, from David Miscavige, from their seniors.

    Not for nothing, but you could give them a hot plate and they probably couldn’t boil water.

    When I worked at the base, I had public whisper to me every staff member on the base looked very keyed in if not psychotic. I had public tell me things, while they were in the middle of auditing, that they could not tell their auditor! And had never told their auditor!

    It was real mess for an environment and a culture.

    We speak of humanity, they do think of or see themselves as human, when they are. They view humanity as “case”. They apparently some of them, did not see Hubbard as human either.

    It has come down to another species, with an alien government, condemning everything and everyone around them, while pilfering off of them at the same time to stay alive. And this is some reflection of Hubbard’s inner soul. One part, as far as I am concerned. And it has been created as a reality.

    We were immigrants through that government / universe. I have known people to take what is useful and bright, and make it work, just as Marty has, just as the people here in America running beautiful Chinese medicine shops, who fled and bought their skills to another land. And made our land a better place.

    This is the human way. To pick up useful tools and skills in their travels, hone them and home them where they are of benefit to oneself, and ones neighbors and family and friends. But this is humanity.

    I have met many people who fled from other countries to come to America. Many, escaping in terrible circustances and losing everything. They reinvented themselves, while carrying with them and passing, everything they loved from home. I have never met a one that wanted their home country to burn down.

    I realize most people do not view the experience as traveling through another country with a separate government. But when I view it way I see the horror it became, and it is easy for me to grab and keep and hold onto, whatever treasures I can carry away with me.

    Thank you Marty for your continued willingness to stand open and speak the truth. In spite of the hecklers, the witch hunters and the M.I.A. (Miscavige Intelligence Agency) and the M.R.S. (Miscagive Revenue Service) and the M.B.I. (Miscavige Bureau of Investigation) , the domestic terrorists , the pick pockets and piggy backers, the con men and spies, the fundamentalists and all other array past present or future, that describes itself as a species known as above “humanoid” and “Homo Novis”. A government who’s purpose is to GOVERN. The purpose of a government is to GOVERN. NOT, indulge in the super natural.

    And Homo Novis if a GOVERNMENT term.

    The purpose of the Church of Scientology is to GOVERN you, and the people of Earth.

    Shifting out of this regime, only means you choose not to support that government. It really doesn’t mean ANYTHING else. It doesn’t mean you have overts or MU’s, it doesn’t mean you are bad, it doesn’t mean your eternity is ruined, or you are going to hell. or you are suppressive. It only means you choose not to support that government.

    Anyone else that is laying some wrong item on you about it, is looking to collect taxes on a form of government they are selling. Convincing you that can not survive with out a kind of government. Either their government or their group or their web site. It is all the same message: “You are not capable of self governance.”

    And if it one thing people are taught in Scientology, it is that self governance is not possible. You can not even be in one of those buildings if you are not on a routing form or in an area where you are governed by someone else.

    And this is what I am talking about when I say it is a GOVERNMENT.

    And what I am saying Marty has been recommending to me, and I think to everyone, is self governance.

  22. Seriously, I ask you to name one staff member or post, who’s hat it is to NOT govern something or someone.

    It is not a Church. It is a government.

  23. Thank you very much, Marty. I found this essay to be enlightening and healing.

  24. martyrathbun09

    Thanks for that. You noted “They apparently some of them, did not see Hubbard as human either.” I don’t believe any of them do – haven’t seen one who by behavior demonstrates that understanding. That is one observation that led to that post about monotheism. Interestingly, I have found since that there is a technical reason for elevating one above the rest, insisting that a close personal intimacy exists (when they’ve never met the man), and implanting that every good result (down to every session) was caused by that one man, including the posting of photos everywhere and requiring they be applauded to daily. It is well known, long-published mental technology (which is not coincidentally forbidden knowledge to the scientologist). It’ll take a book. Hopefully, I can find the time to complete it in the not too distant future. FWIW.

  25. martyrathbun09

    And I’ll add that your communist China analogy prompted me to bring this up – given the technology was so widely used there.

  26. Gerhard Waterkamp

    Interestingly I saw the higher tech trained Scientologists are, the more there is a tendency to be less able to communicate the concepts in which they are so highly trained. While I found any true master in an area can communicate about the concepts of his expertise to different levels of audiences and create a higher understanding of the subject with anyone. It seems the higher Scientology Tech people are trained the more ‘knowledge’ is reduced to quoting something LRH had said.
    The concept: – ‘who says what’ really does not matter much, but what matters is how the concepts and idea’s hold up to an objective evaluation, – is outright blasphemy to them.
    It gets really funny if one suggests to these people such a blasphemy. In some cases it did not take a single minute until the labels came flying: “PTS”, “untrained”,…. This pretty much parallels the label “heathen” or “heretic” which was used by other control operations. In some way Scientology replicated the Inquisition, just with pseudo-scientific terminology.
    For these people Marty’s cardinal sin is that he dares to think with the concepts and puts them in context, rather than quoting them like a Koran pupil in ISIS training school.
    The price of freedom really is to stand up to the bullies no matter what color of insanity they represent.
    Marty, thanks for creating this blog. Your contributions are tremendous.

  27. martyrathbun09

    Great observation on the inverse relationship between training and communication. It is interesting that on PR lines in the church, highly trained tech people were for the most part considered the last people you wanted to look to to deal with inquiries from the outside world on the subject of scientology.

  28. I find that I have gone so far down the road since I left Scientology that it is getting more and more difficult to find any reason to “re-inspect” it.

    What it comes down to, for me, is that I was looking for some tools and my association with Scientology taught me some things. Not necessarily any kind of “Scientology tech” at all.

    I do not consider that it is even remotely possible to “correct” or “refine” Scientology in any meaningful way, because it it is not in any way a “unified theory”. It appears to be an assemblage of ramblings of someone who was at times insightful, sometimes vindictive, sometimes paranoid, and seemingly often delusional. He seems to have rarely told the truth about anything of any importance.

    I consider that the apparent observation that some people who have studied “Scientology Tech” seem to get any kind of result, says more about the nature of the practitioner than the source of his tools, or even the “workability” of the data from which he has extrapolated his tools.

    To me it seems that those who are better data evaluators get better results in all walks of life to which they direct this skill. (And I am not promoting Ron’s version of “data evaluation” here in any way. Yes, those who can already evaluate data can also find some data there, but to swallow that whole “pill”, unevaluated, will surely choke you.)

    I consider that Scientology “Standard Tech” can never be achieved because it does not exist in the data available. What is “standard” in Scientology is a discordant mish-mash of random observations and creative ramblings. There is no “science” in it. It is the creation of a fertile mind that is not working within the constraints of reality.

    Yup. I have gone a long way down the road…. I am not afraid to look back, but I am more interested in where I am going that where I have been.

    Eric S

  29. Coming out with “Golden Tech” campaigns is one thing. Invalidating all of those that trained before is another, and I think a major source of angst for those that had already “been there, done that, got the cert.” IF the Golden Age campaigns ACTUALLY improved speed of service and gains, one would assume that the Gen A auditors would be able to observe, and want to upgrade their skills.

    After reading the intro to Carl Roger’s book, I couldn’t help but see some of the parallels in his adventures in the field of helping people: as a bit of a maverick he did not support the “party lines” and drew considerable flack from his peers for that. Later, when a number of his observations had been vindicated, others took them up, and much to his chagrin, mis-applied them, or gave them an importance that was not called for. So it seems even he “had a squirrel problem”. So I don’t see this as something unique to Scientology, per se, but one of idea and method transmission. And the foibles of man.

    But therein is another problem: the transmission of Scn tech. I would say that at least 50% of the taped lecture content (and could go as high as 75% or more) is noise. Just Hubbard bloviating, and trying to entertain and impress his audience. And anyone who has done an earlier Pro TR’s course knows that he had terrible TR’s……”What about conning Jack Campbell?” So it will take some time to sift through that dung heap for the value, if it be there to be found. Another thing that becomes apparent is the times when he does talk about “the latest and greatest” (Whole Track and Entities – 1952, The Rock – 1957, Routines 1, 2 and 3 – 1961, Routine 3d and goals clearing – 1961-62, etc) it can be said that at some points, it sounds as if he is just making it up as he goes. Maintaining “altitude command value” was a necessity, even when St Hill was insolvent at the time, and PC’s on the co-audits were exhibiting Very Bad Indicators. After the Sea Project was initiated, and he “left” St Hill to yacht around the Mediterranean it appears he became quite unhinged (just listen to the Class VIII tapes), not only suffering physical injuries, but also implementing layers of “plausible deniablity” vis a vis the Sea Organization.

    Here and there individual auditors have done some spectacular things. But there have always been “dragged down at the hunt” by the Collective Thought insanity of the Central Orgs and the Sea Org. Giving Sea Org members “Full Ethics Authority” (read: Command Value) was an enticing power trip for those so inclined to compulsive control, and attracted some real “winners” to the ranks in that regard. And guaranteed fear and loathing in Central Orgs and the field.

    Didn’t really mean to write such a long comment. The “Too Long\Didn’t Read” (TL\DR) out-take is, your post has much resonance with me.

  30. Final thought – LRH said a number of times that “Auditing was what you can get away with.” I think that summarizes it quite nicely. 🙂

  31. martyrathbun09

    Thanks for this Tom. There’s a lot of meat in that shell.

  32. Marty,
    I’ll post something relevant tomorrow, but right now I’m cracking my ass off laughing!!! Something about Class XIIs and “them entities made me do it….”

  33. When I became a Scientologist I granted altitude and quite a bit of awe to many aspects of the group. It included Sea Org members themselves, “OTs”, top execs in the Sea Org, Class XII’s, Ron, etc. As time went on my false and inflated belief in each of these would eventually come down to a very disappointing truth. The Class XII “bubble” was one of the last to pop. When I was assigned to the Flag RPF in late 2004, there were 3 Class XII’s in the RPF. I read their folders, watched their sessions and did e-meter drills with them. They could best be described as HORRIFIC, out tech, basket cases. It was a huge eye opener and a sort of false data stripping
    that helped me separate from the illusion and walk away from the cult. The final “bubble”, the Ron bubble was something I almost didn’t want to confront. There were indicators for years that I ignored or justified. After being out of the Sea Org for a couple of years I started to take a real look at the last bubble. Unfortunately the truth isn’t always what we would like it to be.
    I think the real challenge for myself and others who have gone through this is to reevaluate ourselves, pop our own bubble, deal with it and readjust. No small task.
    I enjoy and learn from watching/reading about your journey.

  34. The church doesn’t exactly have a Suck-sess Story line Tony. How long would that line have been, one wonders, if honesty was the rule rather than the exception.

  35. Nice post Tom. Invalidation permeates every product. The urge to un mock seems almost too great.

    Even on the milestone 2 blog, the largest supporters of Scientology out here, a recent post makes nothing out of clears, the jewels of Scientology, as if they are not capable of self governance or even surviving with out life support from others.

    “We have thousands of “Dianetic Clears” out there who will never make it one step further on the Bridge unless they get sorted out. These people, I have found, are miserable. They are in the worst situation that one can imagine. And the “Church” that put them there isn’t going to lift a crooked bony finger to help them unless, in their debilitated condition, they come up with 6 or 7 intensives ($24,000 or more) to get “fixed” and even then they will probably get invalidated and drift off into blackness.”

    It has become so scrambled that the author of this post can not even promote Scientology with out wholly discounting it’s products at the same time!

  36. I mean, this was supposed to be a pep talk!

  37. Margaret Supak, Malin Gelfan to name the ones that first come to my mind.

  38. More from the same broadcast:

    “How many OTs are there who are in trouble and cannot afford to drop tens of thousands of dollars to get their Repair Program, or next program to redo steps they have already done?

    So who’s going to help these thetans?”

    I mean it goes on and on in the Church too. Being called blind by David Miscavige at an event? (As in, the blind leading the blind). Clears and OT’s declared suppressive? OT’s put on objectives? Clears and OT’s handicapped and failing in life.

    The need to GOVERN transcends the technology, and the products.

  39. And, this really does illustrate my post above about governance. And invalidation goes hand in with that. Because everyone will admit you are a Scientology product, until you imply you would prefer to be “self governing” and speak your own mind.

    And then, all of your auditing, training, experience and the whole lot, means nothing and is entirely discounted.

    In other words, your gains go hand in hand with your willingness to be governed.

    This is a GPM in itself, because isn’t Scientology supposed to bring you up to being capable of self government? If not, Scientology does not deliver.

    And you know, you look at some of the people that leave, and even they do not think they had any gains if they are not subject to that government.

    And it’s really, really bizarre.

    And yes, I think Hubbard founded that too. He was on one level very concerned with owning bodies and controlling bodies. Just like parents don’t want their kids to grow up and vanish, Hubbard wanted the tribe to stay together. UNDER him.

  40. Well, Hubbard himself said he’s not from this planet…
    Thanks for your posts, Marty. Great food for thought.

  41. The situation in North Korea comes to mind. The leader is regarded as a superman whose word – and whim – is law, and the system is both psychological and political.
    That LRH was screwed up, and that his personally trained Class 12s were screwed up, is going to be a hard pill to swallow for some.
    In the past, it always struck me as odd that the best auditors seemed to be people who studied Scientology on the fringes of Scientology or studied it in some unconventional fashion, away from LRH. Not so odd anymore.

  42. And this equals ….. wait for it …. SANITY.

    Marty, your discourse on ‘Golden Ages’ is nothing short of brillant!!! You have dissected and written in a most understandable way about the ‘true’ underbelly of Scientology.

    The justification and agreements one goes through in order to make what one is doing right, true and correct – can be seen as some mean mental gymnastics. In fact, much of what one is doing is bordering, if not totally expressing nutcakes. It takes a pretty strong responsible being, to truly confront and unravel the mega millions of words written in Scio by LRH. It is like a card carrying bible thumper, you raise your right hand to the powers that be, swear your allegiance and back up ‘whatever’ you do by some quote in the millions of words that expresses ‘your’ viewpoint in the moment. declaring that this is sanity and truth. But ….. wait for it ….. is it really SANITY? Me thinks not, it is just a twisted justification of one probably making oneself right ….. oh ….. he made me do it, it was a body thetan. Declaring to oneself, thank LRH I am innocent and therefore can commit any sort of heinous act … in the name of tech, in the name of the one true leader LRH, in the name of the highest good for the greatest number of whatever’s….

    Ok, my rant is over …. it is just the lack of sane responsibility, that does not get expressed by mankind (which requires that one be home) that is a real big pet peeve of mine and is a huge disappointment about the condition of mankind. Requires that one be present, be responsbile and firmly rooted in not being rooted ~ no boxes allowed.

    Write on,oh wordsmith, let your pen be your arrow, shining your light and illuminating a topic so clouded with dicotomies. Please excuse spelling, as spell check doesn’t come up.

  43. Another comment …. moving on … means moving up, moving up means moving through .. remember the ‘way through is the way out’. True freedom is doing just this, moving through, moving up and moving out. This doesn’t say anything about recycling through, up or out, which GAT anything III or XXIII is like you said, agreeing to this, is agreeing to being a gerbil on a never ending treadmill in the cage of Scientology.

  44. It seems that the Golden Age of Tech was precipitated by auditing skills being diluted at Flag. The skills seems to have been diluted because LRH trained XII auditors left one by one.

    If LRH trained Class XII auditors had stayed back, would the situation have been different, or the karma was written on the wall anyway?

    Were there other reasons for Flag income to be going down besides the dilution of auditing skills at Flag? Destruction of the mission network would be one.

    I do understand that there must have been increasing complaints about lack of results promised.

  45. Marty: “When put on a correction program directed by me personally, by personal observation the majority of the Class XIIs were by modern societal standards nut cases.”

    How come such people made it to Class XII in the first place?

    Were they more productive before and simply went PTS to increasingly repressive environment under Miscavige?

  46. Marty: One reason for that was that they were convinced that the only valid correction was to ‘blow’ the body thetan who suggested that they screw up in the first place. “It was misownership; not my overt” was the common refrain; and once the body thetan was addressed, they exclaimed gleefully “it’s all handled now!”

    What is the difference between a dianetic circuit of 1950 in the mind and the body thetan of 1970?

    Neither the function seems to have changed, nor the way of handling it. All one is doing is trial and error.

  47. martyrathbun09

    Thanks for this Mat. We gotta catch up.

  48. I see many traveling down the road really taking a good look with you Marty. One observation that I can make that really, really stands out to me as an observer since the beginning.

    The absence or lessening of Scientologese .. The language created by Hubbard has really decreased. It is really refreshing. I see less Ack and more writing ” I understand. ”

    2WC .. now it’s talking.. You guys have come a long way!

  49. The other day I wrote about those holding the cans were under mind control. I am not back peddling, but I was really talking about Milestone2.
    I won’t link the post.. The Time Is Nigh..

    but when I read these words..

    ” Now we are a small team that is ready, willing and able to fight to the death to keep Scientology alive.”

    That is some serious shit.

    I have really changed my mind about Scn. Tech. If someone says, ” Well, I got something out of it.. I’m glad I’m out, but some parts were good. ”

    I would have screamed from the highest mountain tops.. ( Not that long ago actually) NOTHING worked..

    but who am I to judge? If it worked it was most likely something Hubbard stole from somebody else…or could have been attained by talking to a therapist or a friend.

    So see ..I have learned a lot along my journey too.

  50. Hubbard in the early ’50’s pointed out the “case slump” that could occur after a huge “ascension experience”, and at least was honest enough to warn people about it. The “research progression” from “Circuits” through “Black and White processing” , “The Rock”, “The GPM” and then the classifications of “First goal Clear, Third goal Clear, etc. and “finally” “OT III” and then NOT’s were all aimed at the goal of eradicating dramatizations and somatics. In the first briefing course, he warned students about the state of “Keyed out clear” and how they were actually a liability, as while the GPM masses were “over there” they still existed, and could key in at any time with attendant somatics. If I recall correctly he even recommended that PC’s previously “Cleared” with R3 be told that they needed R3d, and it would not be an easy thing, as they had to turn on the somatics before they could erase the “package”. Perhaps this is one reason the BC has been so de-emphasized?
    Try talking to a current Cl VIII or XII about 3d criss cross and Pre-hav scales. They act like they never heard of it. (And perhaps they haven’t.)
    And therein is another point of cognitive dissonance. While the “old” and “historical” designations are by policy anathema, along the “research line” Hubbard was developing and abandoning procedures at a rapid pace, even himself calling some things “old”. Creative Processing and Rising Scale Processing come to mind.

  51. Marildi –

    “Mark, I’m curious if those Class 6’s your father talked about were interned, if you know. You are probably right that they basically had a lot of information that they had not put it into practice. At one point in time, I believe Class 6’s had not even done earlier internships (Class 4 or 5) but were supposed to do all internships at the end of all their courses. That later got corrected to where one had to do an internship before going on to the next course.”

    Why would a lack of an internship create people who were “a bit psycho”?

    These were the “Dukes of the Auditor Elite”, having applied full study tech to hundreds of hours of Ron’s lectures which were intended to put a being at cause.

    Why would all that “theta” make a person a bit psycho?

    Scientology itself contains escape hatches for explaining away its own failures, such as the one you use of “You are probably right that they basically had a lot of information that they had not put it into practice”.

    Can you see that you are explaining away and justifying Scientology’s failures here with this – and trying to get others to do this as well?

    I think you are simply looking for ANY excuse to explain away things that should not be there if Scientology actually did what it said it did.

    You’re not the only one. Almost ALL scientologists do this on a daily basis in order to remain scientologists.


  52. what comes to mind for me is the famous “the blind leading the blind”!!! and it continues!!!!!

    to have to be willing to see the truth in order to receive the truth and for me this article is truth!!

  53. Thanks for posting that Karen,as a original class 12 you know a lot about this subject. malin gelfin was my auditor on nots and I love her, she didn’t become a 12 until the 80s. They are under a lot of pressure, flag making millions off of them at a 1,000 an hour, they must get burnt out. And falling asleep in session would be caused not getting enough sleep. I had sessions with several class 12s Gwen north, Merrill mayo, Leon Steinberg,ron saffron,and Pierre in and out of the church, always had a great experience. It is interesting to me how different peoples experiences are.

  54. Well said, O. I remember looking at the staff running around the complex in LA and at Flag, and at the WISE Charter Committees and Scn-owned companies and thinking: “_This_ is what a ‘Cleared Planet’ is supposed to look like? I don’t think so.”

    Ron’s vision of the SO and how “we” are members of a huge “Galactic Confederacy,” and that somehow we are still supposed to be in allegiance with them never sat well with me. It is obvious that the government that the CofS wants to become was intended to be an arm of this overarching galactic government. Even when I was most “in” I never signed up for that, and to me the turning point in the whole thing is when we went from “freeing beings” to “salvaging this sector.”

    I know that there is a lot of value and wisdom in Scientology. It takes effort to discern it. And it is incomplete. Ron was just one guy – very prolific and opinionated and hard-working, but one guy with one viewpoint just the same (well, now that I write this, he actually had multiple viewpoints, making the job of figuring this out more of a challenge. Which Ron is talking here?) And he came up with some pearls and distillations that are profound to me.

    I say all this not to troll or invite “Ron’s a bastard” vs. “Ron’s a god” discussions, but to agree with you on the main point: Self governance. That is a perfect phrase for what has to happen if anything at all can come out of this adventure we were all part of. I acknowledged independence four years ago, and declared independence openly two years ago, and to me, being independent means being independent. We need to be independent of all opinions, biases, lies, assertions, arbitrary rules, self-flagellating mea culpas, finger-pointing, and self-righteousness, and rationally view the facts that we can see and trust our own observations and make up our own minds about all of this. People love to follow gurus, and it is true that a lot of value can be had from reading the words of smart people. However, to leave one cult to follow another is certainly not the answer – and the only way out of that that I can see is self-governance. Or as I wrote above, own your own soul.

  55. Yeah, I know that there were a lot of fails too. Just as there is in any therapy group. I’m not saying it’s even the best, just that there are many who did have great “wins”. Just look at the Jim Jackson article over on Tony Ortega’s site. Jim was having major problems after breaking up with a girl and it was handled very quickly with auditing. I have seen this type of thing many times over my 30+ years in Corporate Scientology. I’m sure psychology has had it’s share of losses too. 🙂 The funny thing is that to learn how to audit well probably wouldn’t take that long to learn if you were free of some of the craziness. I know that even Book 1 auditing has helped people and it is easy and requires no meter.

  56. If any auditor of mine – or any staff member of any stripe – gave me that shit, I’d tell him “No case on post, mother cusser.” Seriously. The one thing I really disliked post OT III was this tendency to lay responsibility on someone else. I did OT III and I attested to it – no BTs or clusters. Meaning, no BTs or Clusters. Imagine my surprise when they came up in OT IV as something that I supposedly still had? Well, when asked “Who’s charge is it?” it was ALWAYS mine – because I had already liberated these folks on the earlier level. I did OT IV and had wins, but I was done at that point.

  57. You are a great thinker, and a great writer, Grasshopper.

    “Own your own soul” is a great way to describe the “VFP” of graduating from Scientology.


  58. I think the internship(s) provide the “mass” to balance the “significance” of studying all that theory. Theory does need to be balanced by a “practical”. Scientology aside, I think there are consequences to being all head and no heart, all thinking and no doing. And vice-versa.
    In some traditions it has been expressed as there are two lines of self development, and they need to be balanced or you get a bad or incomplete product. The two lines are Being and Knowledge.

  59. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    What a post. I’d to read it 2-3 Times to fully get it.

    But this is quite a Mind clearer post. Sorry don’t kow of any other word to describe it.

    When I look back at my 35 years of being in and wanting to help to clear the Planet there is one thing that I never understood and that was haunting me until today.
    i was always dreaming about to become an Class XII and Febc graduate, but never made it and invalidated myself continously with all kind of those items (mu’s, pts, outethics……) at my disposal in Scientology. On the other side in the wog world I didn’t have any problems to understand very complex subjects and being able to apply them without any big problems. This was a big riddle for me as I’ve seen my fellow Scientologists and staff members just flying up the grade chart, becoming class IV or VI in no time and I just was stuck…..This frustration was and all invals connected to it were haunting me until today.

    When i started as a sixteen yeas old boy and I did my first IQ Test in Hgc I’d about 148 points and when I did my last auditing 30 years later I’d 146 points. What puzzled me most, were my fellow Scientologist with IQs around 100 to 130 just being successful in Scientology and climbing up the ladder very fast, while me with such an high IQ wasn’t moving fast but was constantly in troubles with this group, as I disagreed a lot . Very fast I learned my lesson that the problem is me and a mysterious case condition (LSD ? OT VII ?…..). So I became very fast one the first OTs in our field. But it didn’t solve anything.

    Now, when I look back and after readind your post I’m laughing my ass off and I understand now what happened and what a foll I was.

    Here some examples of the problems:

    When I did my BSM in 1974 i was to complete the course and the Qual Sec then was drilling with me so he could count me on his stat. One of the last drill was the duplication drill with reading aloud. He was coaching me and became very upset. I was reading aloud from alice in wonderland and giving examples of this nonsense and she kept asking me how do you feel about it ? As I had learnt in Scientology to be honest, I told her how I felt about it;:” not good “. After 2 hours she was very rude and send me to attest the course. I took me several more years to find out that there are Scientologists that can’t read a simple sentence and that this drill was made for them and they have wins when they are able to read a sentence and understand it, like a litlle 5 years old kid learning to read.Unbelieveable. In fact I was feeling bad on this course as I didn’t learn some great Stuff about this scientific technology about learning, just some common sense.

    When I was studying product zero I ‘d big Problems as I couldn’t make sense ot the stuff I was learning there and was 100% certain that I must have big Mu’s on it or or that I’m out-ethics or pts…or…. It was very frustrating to stay on the epf for weeks and weeks while my fellow epfers just completed one after the other. I couldn’t make sense of that a thetan can wear any hat as he has all the experience on the track and lots of other stuff too. I stayed honest and really wanted to understand it and clear it until I’m really certain about those data. This was an impossibility as I was trying to make sense out of nonsense but never had the cognition that this was nonsense and I should immediatly leave.

    In 1978 the wife of Guillaume Lesevre, the the CO Europe gave my a short assist and urgently needed an Examiner. At this time Guillaume was upset with me because of being too long in the EPF, but his wife asked him to be the examiner f and in a very rude and angry mood he told me that my needle was floating. He was then a fully interned class IV.

    In the nineties there was an amnesty for auditors. The Flag Rep asked my wife to do the amnesty, he wanted to reg her for it. My wife honestly told she has no overts as an auditor and she will not do it. he tried then to persuade her that she must have some and gave lots of examples what overts auditors have like indicating a F/N when there wasn’t one, false reports and lots of other stuff. She came3 home totally upset and couldn’t believe auditors were doing such weird things, but this flag rep told her that most of the auditors have such overts. She didn’t cave in and didn’t do the amnesty, as not in her wildest dreams she could imagine doing such overts.

    In the moment hundreds of examples are popping up in my mind about Scientologists that were high up in the echelons doing really weird things and lacking intelligence. i could write a book about it.

    I think the main point is honesty. Most of them just run up the ladder without asking questions, while I tried to stay honest and make sense out of sometimes the greatest nonsense. So it was an impossibility for me to ever really graduate on anything or being able to move fast up the ladders.

    Thank you Marty, You are the best ! Some heavy frustrations and all the funny emotions connected to it just went away ( or should I say blew?).

  60. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    Sorry for the typos in above post, I’m in a hurry but wanted to comment. I hope that one can still understand it. next time I’ll do better.

  61. Thank you Alanzo. Likewise.

  62. Marty, these two statements seem opposed:

    ” When put on a correction program directed by me personally, by personal observation the majority of the Class XIIs were by modern societal standards nut cases. About 90 percent of them were incapable of correction.”

    “I have written earlier that had the XII’s remained in boot camp with me to learn communication training routines the hard way and how to naturally and accurately handle a meter I believed that 90% of the problem would have been solved.”

    Does the second statement apply to only the 10% who were capable of correction in the first place or did the majority of them recover from assigning cause to bt’s during your boot camp?

    Also, if 90% of the problem of TRs and metering could have been solved, would that have rendered the tech workable, more workable, or just less likely to create a Lisa McPherson?

  63. martyrathbun09

    Go back and look at them in context. Then answer this, ‘how are these two excerpts consistent?’

  64. martyrathbun09

    Roger, you came across loud and clear. Like in the nietzschean quest for Ubermensch, you don’t ‘fly’ on the road to Homo Novis until you park your intellect in favor of will.

  65. Valkov wrote:

    “I think the internship(s) provide the “mass” to balance the “significance” of studying all that theory. Theory does need to be balanced by a “practical”.

    This is an excellent example of a Scientologist continuing to re-assert a Scientology escape-hatch rationalization for an observed failure of Scientology.

    Mark’s dad’s observation that BC grads were “a bit psycho” did not mention whether they were interned or not. Marildi, desperately trying to prop up Scientology for herself, simply asked if they were so she could explain away his observation.

    And now you have latched on to this standard Scientology rationalization for its observed failure and re-asserted it.

    There is no reason that, per the tech, a BC student, listening to all those lectures and following the BC checksheets, and applying full study tech throughout, would end up with “a lack of mass”.

    That is just what you are hoping for in order to explain away Mark’s father’s observation for the real results of Scientology.

    You can’t understand the results of Scientology by thinking with Scientology.

    From “we build a world with broken straws” to “Scientology works 100% of the time when correctly applied” Scientology is FILLED with these types of service fac rationalizations to use to explain away Scientology’s failed results.

    I’ve got a challenge for you Valkov:

    See if you can stop thinking with Scientology, just for a day.

    I’ll bet you can’t.


  66. “What’s your purpose?” is a good question. 🙂

  67. How could have internship helped? It would have simply shown that most of the Scientology Tech doesn’t actually work.

  68. I don’t need your usual knee-jerk sh*t Al. Read my whole post, and try to control your knee….. Those knees tend to jerk when one latches on to significances at the expense of some real-life doing, because it makes one top-heavy.
    You’re like an American in Japan who refuses to learn any of the the local language.and brags about it. Read my whole post so you can put the scn jargon parts of it in context. I’ve never seen another who seems so unable to develop concordances and think with “data of comparable magnitude”.
    Running your ideological party line on me just doesn’t work and never has. I guess it is true, that those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it!

  69. That’s the stupidest challenge ever. Try expanding your own ability to think with more than one ideological system at a time!

  70. If it’s any consolation, anyone willing to “fight to the death”, doesn’t have the purpose of “winning”. That there is a GPM. One would hopefully fight for victory. Fighting with a succumb postulate at the end , well………

    He does seem to have a purpose to “fight to the death”, ………

    Not sure that one would be considered highly beneficial.

  71. martyrathbun09

    You are responding like a true believer.

  72. martyrathbun09

    That is a true believer type of response. A fairly rational observation is met with attack.

  73. Yes – I can hear it now: “What’s your purpose?” Clamor starting: “Me!” “No ME!” “No ME!” “Shut up, I’m the boss here. Me!”

  74. Anyway, money seems to matter as I see dollar signs floating around in his post. He is basically saying that clears and OT’s are a bunch of broke assed bitches.

  75. Karen, this is the most fascinating thing as horrible of a fact that it is. 🙂 A person cannot BECOME a Class XII auditor in the first place if their ethics are out so I know that all the auditors mentioned MADE it to the chair successfully. YET, they are declared by approval of a person who is himself not even a Class IV auditor! 🙂 I remember telling you when we first communicated after I learned you were no longer in the Sea Org that I had to re-file a full ton of information on my time track to confront that the first Class XII auditor in the world I ever met in New York (you) were declared? I remember that night fantasizing about being in session with you and handling all kinds of case from nowhere out of the blue! 🙂 I wonder if I was the only one from the church that had real ARC for you being there that night because it still feels true today! 🙂 Karen, this is how I learned that there are people that have left the church for REAL reasons, true ones, not the trumped up information that the church propagandizes people with about the former church members. I was in the church remember and I am not going to lie about things that happened good or bad but it would seem the bad outweighs the good and being in the church is a compromise I am no longer willing to make, anaylytically or otherwise! 🙂

  76. I am studying Nietzsche currently. Nietzsche overman is very different from Scientology OT.

    [Wikipedia] “The love and acceptance of one’s path in life is a defining characteristic of the overman. Faced with the knowledge that he would repeat every action that he has taken, an overman would be elated as he has no regrets and loves life. Opting to change any decision or event in one’s life would indicate the presence of resentment or fear; contradistinctly the overman is characterized by courage and a Dionysian spirit.”

  77. “This burden is now lifted from you”, I have found to be hugely helpful and very much appreciated. 🙂

  78. That’s exactly my point. If one doesn’t attempt to apply a theory, one will never know whether it works in practice or not. That is what has been found with Communism, for example.
    Development of both Being and Knowledge, per Ouspensky and others. They need to be balanced. There are consequences to an individual neglecting to do so, as is commonly acknowledged by popular culture in jokes and disparagement of “eggheads” or “strong back weak mind” etc.

  79. …whoa. That last statement has really lifted a curtain for this never-in.

    Have just finished reading your ‘Memoirs’…could not put it down.
    Thank you for doing your work and publishing your on-going journey.

  80. “Willful mind” might be a curious one to sort out.

  81. Perhaps there are staff that have been keyed into their “willful” mind.

  82. martyrathbun09

    Same goal, same origins.

  83. martyrathbun09

    It doesn’t just apply to staff. I don’t know why it sounds so foreign. Hubbard material is replete with directions to ‘not think.’ ‘Thinking’ is a pejorative term in scientology. When you get right down to brass tacks, my promotion of thinking and rehabilitating the scientology-discarded intellect, is what has caused our home to be under continual siege for five years from all sectors of scientology.

  84. If getting angry at another’s post is ALWAYS “responding as a true believer”, then absolutely, I am responding that way. It has to do with what T.O. calls “wrong indication”.
    First off, my post had nothing to do with what Al is talking about. There is nothing particularly “rational” about what he posted. It is a canned message of the type he likes to sometimes post. He has posted the same or similar message in response to some of my posts here and elsewhere, for several years, It is a machine post, a “party line”. It ignores the content, context, and frame of reference of my post.
    But my main objection is that it is basically the exercise of a “thought control” or “thought reform” technique a la “1984”, China, North Korea, or the Soviet Union. etc.
    It pressures me to eliminate certain words and concepts from my vocabulary, eg anything from Scientology, and discounts my post because it contains some of that language, instead of attempting to get the meaning I was trying to convey. Because of my family background, I am particularly sensitive to such thought reform attempts. I was calling Al out on it 4-5 years ago on Geir’s Forum, and I will continue to point out the ‘brainwashing’ aspects of his posts as long as he continues to indulge himself in those.
    One reason is I think he does have good things to say, but he is his own worst enemy when he indulges himself in such tactics, and his message is lost by it.
    I see these kinds of posts as attempts to create a “newspeak” by eliminating various words by condemning them and by extension the person using them.

    It may seem OK to Al to use these kind of tactics, but it is not OK with me for folks to use them on me. Tey get some kickback from me when they occur. Here’s another link:

  85. martyrathbun09

    You sound like Heber Jentzsch during the height of GO outrage over being raided by the FBI, quite frankly. You are reading everybody but the Marcabs being behind a simple, in my opinion accurate, point he made: “You can’t understand the results of Scientology by thinking with Scientology.”

  86. As I see it Marty, it was not an “observation” at all. It was a conclusion from several years ago, searching for its own proof, produced by a ‘critical machine’.
    And it was met not with “attack”, but with “defense” or “rebuttal”, as I see it. Obviously I perceived his post as an “attack” in the first place, and I have attempted to explain why in my previous post.
    Also, none of this has anything to do with with the relative validity of the basic idea in his post, that Scn can limit one’s thinking IF it is the only kind of thinking one uses. But hat is not the case here. I attempt to fit SCn ideas into a larger framework or perspective, and I think I did that in my original comment wich triggered his knee-jerk response. Fact is, he has many times said outright, that he uses my posts as a springboard to post “Critical” ideas “for the lurkers”.
    I don’t like being used that way, so there is no question I have responded tit-for-tat at times to his non-sequitur comments.

  87. I think I covered this in my two previous comments.

  88. martyrathbun09

    No you don’t. You automatically defend the most indefensible facts with with absurd, scientology-think justification/evasions. That it is on auto-pilot is no surprise. That is the e/p of it, really.

  89. martyrathbun09

    And that is a natural result of the very heart of what I believe Alonzo was attempting to point out: “You can’t understand the results of Scientology by thinking with Scientology.”

  90. The new regime that “took over” the church is planning for a visit by L. Ron Hubbard in a spaceship as a being come to save Mankind. How can such people manage a church? Headed by David Miscavige? 🙂 That is the reason for the downfall compounded by all the church’s past out-ethics and O\W’s. I do not boast of knowing how to manage the church, but the thing to do is concentrate on the people on Earth that are here that can actually get auditing and training at this moment, and not the Follies Bergere arrving in a space ship with a re-incarnated LRH to save the planet. 🙂

  91. Something about Golden Statues comes to mind.

  92. No I don’t…. what?

  93. Valkov.
    I don’t see you as a a true believer.
    I think Alonzo brings up good points sometimes but he does it in a very abrasive way. I think it might be that if you see ANY good in Scientology from some peoples view then you are aberrated or Stuck in cult think or whatever. There were lots of good things that I got from Scientology and I will keep using it. I can differentiate between the good and the bad.

  94. Roger wrote:

    “This was an impossibility as I was trying to make sense out of nonsense but never had the cognition that this was nonsense and I should immediately leave.


    That’s also one of my biggest “bypassed cognitions”!

    Excellent post, Roger. I enjoyed every word of it!

    LOL!! (still laughing…)


  95. martyrathbun09

    “I think it might be that if you see ANY good in Scientology from some peoples view then you are aberrated or Stuck in cult think or whatever.” You have missed the point entirely too.

  96. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    I’m so happy that I was struggling and had a strong will trying to 100% understand ” That what can’t be understood”, instead of just flying up to Homo Novis.
    I always thought that I’m a very weak person because I didn’t have the strong will as my comrades demonstrated. But this saved me and my family from becoming ronbots.
    Life is Beautiful !
    A nice quote from Einstein:

    “The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom the emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand wrapped in awe, is as good as dead —his eyes are closed. The insight into the mystery of life, coupled though it be with fear, has also given rise to religion. To know what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive forms—this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.”

  97. Why don’t you clarify it for me then? Just as an example I wonder if Alonzo could list some things about Scientology that he likes or he feels are benficial?

  98. I mean I can find good things in the Bible or in psychology books too. I think Scientology was loaded with useful data. I refuse to get on the “all is bad” bandwagon even though I don’t consider myself a Scientologist anymore. I don’t believe in the goal of OT as achievable. Still why denigrate the whole body of information? Not saying you are. It does seem to me that there are some people who have really been burned by corporate Scientology that have become real haters and I can’t say I blame them. I got burned but I can see my own culpability in the whole scheme of things so I don’t feel as bitter as others I guess.
    People that were in the Sea Org joined and stayed on voluntarily for years and some of them now feel the whole subject is bullshit?? Wow that must suck.

  99. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    And I’m still laughing…can’t stop………

  100. I think that Alanzo does go overboard. I think Valkov has started to look at the situation on his own. Alanzo should read Valkov’s post more closely.

  101. DM’s message to the world, in the final chapter, “You are only as OT, as your muscle and your attorneys.”

    He’s out of Philly and I suspect, a former associate of Nicodemo Scarfo. “Little Nicky” enjoyed the celebrity gangster life style and was an admirer of Chicago crime boss Al Capone. Scarfo would scan newspapers for his name and make sure his soldiers carried out violence in public to create a constant atmosphere of fear.

    With all of the tech vols and admin vols, this is as creative as DM gets to solve a problem. He’s selling religion and he assumed you were going to take over some of his turf. What a waste of money.

    Through his own actions he has devalued whatever “good will” Scientologists had managed to muster over the decades. He hasn’t just cost the Church millions in terms of lawyers, spies (notice the people hostile towards you out here, that manage to go for years on nothing but oxygen and no apparent source of income) private investigators etc etc, he has cost the Church billions in the loss of “good will”.

    Ref for those that are curious: Good will is the value of a company’s brand name, solid customer base, good customer relations, good employee relations and any patents or proprietary technology represent goodwill. Goodwill is considered an intangible asset because it is not a physical asset like buildings or equipment. The goodwill account can be found in the assets portion of a company’s balance sheet. Ill will is a liability.

    IF he put the Church of Scientology up for sale tomorrow, who would buy it?

    He has actually turned it into a giant liability. By the time you add up all of the undelivered service, staff dependents, legal situations and liabilities, I mean, I ask, who would buy it? Could he even GIVE it away? Maybe to some die hard loyalists who are already bankrupt themselves.

    If all the assets were sold would it cover the liabilities? I think not. He generates ill will at an all time high.

    Looking at this strictly from a business point of view, the Chairman of the Board hasn’t really been up to snuff. If he took it public, he could not sell stock. It is not a successfully run company.

    He is a successful pimp. I have no idea why bright, successful business men keep throwing money at it.

    Not sure how he figures he can buy his way out of five years of domestic terrorism in Texas, but when he ends up loosing this case even the businessmen will take notice. It is not easy to ignore the front page news.

    This is just what the big donors need to see in the paper. DM’s new gangster nick will be “The Dentist”, because everything he wants or needs after that, it’s going to be like pulling teeth. He has set himself up in a very public comm ev. And the donors can see where their donations are going. To pay for mistakes. They are getting taxed for his mistakes.

  102. martyrathbun09

    Try to read the thread analytically. Try to turn off the scientology-laden sub-conscious associative system before knee-jerking a response.

  103. martyrathbun09

    You are mocking up all sorts of things that were never written. That is the bitch with the scientology-laden, subconscious associative mind system one walks out of scientology with.

  104. martyrathbun09

    “does go”? What does that have to do with anything? Allowance for inclusion of that into consideration of the communication is scientology trained argumentation. You start putting the guy’s past and character into the evaluation of the communication. This is precisely why I believe former scientologists (even and sometimes particularly ex ones) are still suffering from the scientology-laden associative sub-conscious running their lives.

  105. That’s your opinion Marty.
    You write some good stuff but you aren’t the second coming either.
    I am probably less indoctrinated then you are.

  106. Well colour me all sorts of stunned Marty.

    A couple of years ago, I wrote a series of rather scathing (I would prefer to think of them as ‘bracingly skeptical’, YMMV), long-form comments over at Tony’s place (first at VV, then TUB), calling out the ‘Indie’ movement in all its forms, and you role in and around it, for attempted rehabilitation of Hubbard, willful ignorance of the inherent contradictions in his work, as well as the baked-in, inherent authoritarianism of Hubbardism.

    I pointed out that by heaping all the blame for CoS’ current problems on Miscavige’s stewardship was disingenuous (especially on your part) and ignored both 1) Miscavige’s clear intent to deliver the goods (tainted though I found them) and B) Hubbard’s clear responsibility for every major misstep and untruth in the organization.

    I felt (and feel) that the ‘Indie’ movement, far from being the ‘safe landing pad’ espoused by y ore optimistic friends, was more like the crash pas right out of rehab with your ‘not-quite-a-dealer’ pal who would just give you little smack (or methadone) to ‘tide you over’ as you quit, when cold-turkey was the only way out.

    I took real heat on two grounds: 1) By all reports you were a really nice guy, and 2) my insistence that Miscavige’s repackaging was caused not by intentional desire to ‘squirrel’ or destroy the CoS, but because there was little other way to resell the same old stuff (clearly I lacked- and lack– your first hand POV of his other motivations.)

    I was concerned about any attempted rehabilitation of the old man so close to the apparently inevitable implosion of CoS, because there is a lot of money and infrastructure (not to mention Rel Estate!) in play, the entire organization was established and then honed to follow the strongest (and not necessarily the best, or chosen heir) leader, and anyone holding themselves up as ‘The True Preserver of Hubbard’s Legacy’ and having been near the top of the whole SNAFU dogpile was likely to be in play to ‘save’ the unsalvageable.

    Obviously my regard fell upon you, Mary. I have seen you grow and move through your blog and books, in fits and starts, and though I am very poorly placed to judge you as a human being, or spiritual seeker, for my part these last months (and most notably, these two last columns) have put my mind at ease.

    I am glad to see you no longer offering comfortingly vague (or openly pro)-Hubbard) bromides to the still-suffering, and to see you drawing the clear line that there can be no fixing something so profoundly damaged, disingenuous and downright cynical down to its DNA.

    Someone told me today that they found that once the last reflexive vestiges of Hubbardism had fallen away (quoting reflexively letters and statements, etc…) that people seemed to become what they had been before; I certainly hope this is the case, and that most of the broken, but basically ell-meaning people I see in your comment section will rediscover the basically good impulses that may have driven them into this game of Musical Chairs in the first place. On a good day, I can almost believe it…. almost.

    But I especially hope it for you, in spite of everything. I hear you are a good guy, and did some really, truly good acts when you were a young man. I have come to believe that is what you are trying to do now.

    Best of luck.

  107. martyrathbun09

    I never said I was. This is more scientology argumentation – character attack.

  108. I just finished Grade IV about a week ago and I really liked it.

  109. I believe that an Apollonian approach that is not Dionysian at all ( see Wikipedia) is very Scientology like. It lacks compassion.

    I believe that compassion has great value. I can see Valkov struggling to come out of Scientology mindset. His struggle to do so should be taken into consideration and acknowledged. 🙂

  110. On the other hand Valkov should try to control his reactions. I believe he was good in bullbaiting. 🙂

  111. martyrathbun09

    Thanks for that perspective. Did you ever read my book ‘Memoirs’?

  112. OK, Marty, I have an offer for you: You and I sit down and do the “compilation of what ‘to do’, instead of what ‘not to do’, and communication of it in plain English.” This would only be for Grades 0-4. I can’t speak for anything above that. I don’t think it is that tough a job. I’m afraid I see most of that as too simple (but of course I could have my head up my xxx).

  113. martyrathbun09

    Well, I nearly went there two years ago. Had I had the resources I might have done it. But, further studies and exploration since have informed me that where I am going is more important than that at the moment.

  114. Yes, I did It was my favourite of your books.

  115. martyrathbun09

    Thanks. I ended it with a quote from the Zen master Pai-chang: “One is not different from who one used to be; only one’s course of action is different than before.” I thought of that when you noted the phenomena about folks being essentially who they were before when they wake up from the programming.

  116. You attack people’s character when you don’t like what they post. (True believer) If you dish it out you have to be able to take it.
    You are a brilliant guy, but I think you are not as far along on your decompression as you think.

  117. martyrathbun09


  118. Tom, I no longer have my Scn materials to quote dates but LRH said that auditing was NOT what you can get away with. (And thus one should follow correct procedure)

  119. Thanks for this clear statement, Marty. It makes it a lot easier to align all your writings and the variety of others’ experiences as well.

  120. Sure, I can see that. Here’s hoping, huh?

  121. martyrathbun09

    I’ve said it hundreds of times and I’ll say it again…for every LRH quote you want to lord over somebody with they can just as easily find another one to support their position. Part of the cognitive dissonance machine.

  122. It was a few sentences before making that point, that I find objectionable. I am tired of Al using me as a whipping boy when he wants to make what may be a perfectly valid point. He could just make his point, he doesn’t need to declare how stupid I am unless he wants to make himself look shiny smart by comparison. He used my post as a springboard and threw in what I believe was a gratuitious insult, without even responding to the content of my post. I do not consider his metacomment a response to my post. I consider it a deliberate discount. He doesn’t have that altitude as far as I’m concerned.

    By the way, I did not learn this kind of analysis of transactions in scientology. Far from it.

  123. Übermensch of Nietzsche


    Basically, Nietzsche was very dissatisfied with the current morality and the condition of man. He dreamed of evolution of man toward Übermensch, a state that transcended the current state of man. Nietzsche was looking for coherency and consistency in nature.

    “While Nietzsche injects myriad ideas into the book, a few recurring themes stand out. The overman (Übermensch), a self-mastered individual who has achieved his full power, is an almost omnipresent idea in Thus Spoke Zarathustra. Man as a race is merely a bridge between animals and the overman. Nietzsche also makes a point that the overman is not an end result for a person, but more the journey toward self-mastery.” ~ Wikipedia

    The word “self-mastery” is the key to understanding the above passage correctly. Übermensch was not created by adding, training or inculcating “desirable” characteristics in man. Übermensch was an evolution brought about by reducing man to his natural state.

    To Nietzsche, Übermensch was a state in which man was congruent with his natural self.


    “The eternal recurrence, found elsewhere in Nietzsche’s writing, is also mentioned. “Eternal recurrence” is the possibility that all events in one’s life will happen again and again, infinitely. The embrace of all of life’s horrors and pleasures alike shows a deference and acceptance of fate, or Amor Fati. The love and acceptance of one’s path in life is a defining characteristic of the overman. Faced with the knowledge that he would repeat every action that he has taken, an overman would be elated as he has no regrets and loves life. Opting to change any decision or event in one’s life would indicate the presence of resentment or fear; contradistinctly the overman is characterized by courage and a Dionysian spirit.” ~ Wikipedia

    We may understand the character of Übermensch by looking at self per A Model of Self.

    A self as made up of a multi-dimensional matrix of “definitions and logics.” This matrix was distorted as social, cultural, and moral contexts were forced in place. Such distortions then reduced the potential of man and made him behave irrationally. This was the current state of man. By resolving such inconsistencies man could be propelled toward the state of Übermensch.

    For Nietzsche, a resolution of the social, cultural, and moral contexts was necessary to evolve man toward Übermensch.


  124. Marty, I suggest we let it rest. I made it personal towards Al because he made it personal by using me and my post as a springboard to his own agenda, instead of responding to the actual ideas I was expressing.
    This exchange leaves me feeling that you guys are on your own track in your own world(s), and have little spare attention for understanding anything or anyone else’s world, except in the narrow terms of scientology/ex-scientology. For example, it’s ridiculous to think that a person gets angry and “sounds like Heber” because that person is a “Scientologist” in his thinking and for no other reason!
    Therefore there is no point in chewing on it.
    Your blog is one of the best, and your posts are excellent. This latest one I especially like, as it is clearly written by one who’s been there done that. I’m looking forward to reading your next book.

  125. A Class VI is really nothing more than a DIanetics auditor. A Class VI can make a Clear but cannot run Power Grades, OT IV, NOT’s, L’s or OT correction and repairs. So a Class VI is like a 38% trained auditor. And, not all of L. Ron Hubbard’s lectures are so entirely sensible. If the taped lecture does not make sense stop listening to it without any MU. 🙂

  126. Threefeetback, I had this cog the other day (please forgive my backsliding) that one of the most basic basic roads to the destruction of reason is this one LRH quote:

    “Scientology is senior to life because it handles life” LRH

    That is a very dangerous sentiment because it makes LRH senior to Scientology which is senior to life.

    To bring the concept of…………….ALL LIFE………… do you get that…….ALL LIFE……….into a lower position than the “Church” of Scientology is entrance level brainwashing and a piece of data that will justify violence against those critical of Scientology because Scientology is more important than life itself.

    This is an evil piece of LRH mind distorting.

    Life is senior to Scientology because Scientology is attempting to understand life. Without life…….. no Scientology.

    This is entrance level mind fuck. Agreeing with this data is the essence of Scientology arrogance.

  127. martyrathbun09

    You want to let it go, but do so with parting salvos which indicate you did not learn a thing by the exchange. This ‘you guys’
    business is really uncalled for, with no basis whatsoever. As much as you say you enjoy the blog, if you want to keep acting out the scientology implant of argument by stereo-typing, labelling, and claiming conspiracy theories, I would prefer you not bother. If I can’t help you to graduate I prefer to not have to police an educational forum from becoming a scientology sophomore class. I do this gratis. Nobody supports my activity. I am not in the entertainment business.

  128. martyrathbun09


  129. martyrathbun09

    Bit of advice. Get your TRs in.

  130. Wonderful

  131. martyrathbun09

    Or, as Dr. Joseph Winter prophetically put it in “A Doctor’s Report on Dianetics”:
    ‘Insofar as the dangers of dianetic therapy are concerned, they are no greater than those inherent in many other therapies; in my opinion, the effectiveness of dianetics far outweighs its possible dangers. However, there is one danger which lurks in all forms of healing, no matter whether the efforts are directed at the psyche or the soma: we should beware of overenthusiasm, especially when the enthusiast is unskilled and uncritical. If one regards any hypothesis as a perfect, closed system, one which gives an invariably correct answer to every question, he is asking for trouble. A persistent scientific skepticism and an ethical regard for the rights of one’s patients must be maintained in the practice of dianetics as it should be in any other form of therapy; in the absence of that attitude any therapeutic method is apt to be dangerous.’
    As I have noted in a previous post, Dr. Winter was declared enemy sociopath by L. Ron Hubbard for expressing such views.

  132. Lawrence I am truly sorry about your loss. My deepest sympathy. So painful to lose a parent.

  133. Q.E.D. is an initialism of the Latin phrase quod erat demonstrandum, originating from the Greek analogous hóper édei deîxai (ὅπερ ἔδει δεῖξαι), meaning “which had to be demonstrated”. The phrase is traditionally placed in its abbreviated form at the end of a mathematical proof or philosophical argument when what was specified in the enunciation — and in the setting-out—has been exactly restated as the conclusion of the demonstration.[1] The abbreviation thus signals the completion of the proof.

  134. Übermensch of Nietzsche is just the opposite of the Operating Thetan of Hubbard.

    Übermensch is reality-centric (congruent), whereas OT is self-centric (narcissistic).

  135. martyrathbun09

    You know, I think I’m beginning to understand your schtick. You spend 15 minutes on google, and then pronounce which way is up with authority.

  136. I have no authority other than the consistency of arguments.

  137. Al, I posted a reply earlier but It was probably too long and was moderated out, so I’ll shorten it.

    Alanzo: “Why would a lack of an internship create people who were ‘a bit psycho’? These were the ‘Dukes of the Auditor Elite’, having applied full study tech to hundreds of hours of Ron’s lectures which were intended to put a being at cause.”

    Firstly, if they had never done an internship, either Class IV or the Dianetics internship, where their understanding of the fundamentals gets tested and corrected, then they would not have been applying full study tech – because, as Valkov said, there would have been no balance of mass and significance, no balance of theory and practical, as well as a skipped gradient.

    But since you think this is just “re-asserting a Scientology escape-hatch rationalization for an observed failure of Scientology,” I reviewed a paper I came across and downloaded a couple years ago. A teacher in Australia by the name of David Wilkinson tested study tech on his class, and also the study methodology of another man, Dr E H Lyndon, who, in 2000 completed his doctoral thesis titled “A New Theory and a New Method of Conceptual Change.”

    As regards skipped gradient producing confusion and reelingness, the teacher who did the research project came to the conclusion that Hubbard was right about that I don’t know what Mark’s dad’s observations were exactly, but perhaps he was looking at those very phenomena. I haven’t been able to find the paper online again to give you the link, but here are some brief excerpts, mainly pertaining to research on the “skipped gradient” study barrier:

    1. To isolate from the literature Learning Process Fundamentals.
    2. To investigate their application and effectiveness.
    3. To develop scaffolds that would enhance the learning of mathematics and science in my classroom.
    BARRIER: Skipped Learning Gradient
    PROBLEM: Ineffective or insufficient practice of an earlier step. A gradient is a way of doing something step by step. Each step should be learned well by practising it.
    PHYSIOLOGICAL REACTION: Confusion, reelingness.
    REMEDY: Return to the step before the confusion. Check that the words have been defined. Practise that step.”Say it to the wall.” [The sentence in quotes refers to a Lyndon technique, the other man besides LRH whose study principles were researched.]
    Although many researchers have alluded to the desirability of achieving cognitive change, as far as I can tell, only Hubbard and Lyndon have provided technical procedures that achieve it.
    Since I began using this approach I have experienced a far greater sense of professional satisfaction. I now have an effective technology, an approach that enables my students to succeed.

  138. Inconsistency in oranges is not demonstrated by comparison to apples. You’ve done precisely what I said you did. Not appreciated.

  139. As per usual, you did not even address the central point of the communication you are attempting to refute.

  140. Another Thought

    I have some personal experience with those higher classed guys. When I supervised at FSO, we’d have several ProTRs retreads from the AO HGC that literally fell asleep in the sessions they audited. Watching lower classed ones, they would fall apart after so long. Myself, included.

    I guess I am saying that for many, the hope was to get higher classed and then it would be handled. Turns out, that obviously isn’t the solution. I might have missed it if it came up earlier, but what might you (Marty) have done to handle the corrections? Or, perhaps the better question is, considering the inherent troubled nature of the subject, in terms of essentially nullifying the individual’s ability to, as Hubbard himself put it, “observe the obvious” and use it to think with, wouldn’t you have made matters extremely worse?

    If I am following your line of thinking, I am guessing your corrections would have essentially have to start with addressing basics in the individuals themselves. You would have to have started by quite literally getting to the core of the problems within those individuals, and I would expect quite likely walk right into the degraded aspects of those individuals due to the privations and loses they have endured to be in the SO, in addition to addressing any actual and real crimes they have committed in the Machiavellian day to day life of a SO member, right? (In short, they’d have to come straight with the world.) Of course, once they gained some personal horse power, next up would be their own seniors who themselves would need to be sorted out, and on up the org board it would go. Ultimately, you’d be dealing with Int. Execs and on up from there. Worse, you would also be running right up against the exact same policy problems that empowered people to do this to begin, which now meant another “evolution” to clean up that stuff.

    By “making matters extremely worse” I mean, you would basically be challenging command intention from the class 12’s on up because they would be more likely to stop the crazy coming down (so I mean that somewhat tongue-in-cheek).

    Not that this really matters anymore, but I have to admit some interest in what specific basics you might have found you needed to address to undercut the inability to be there comfortably and observe the obvious.

  141. Grasshopper.. When I read your profound words..” Own Your Own Soul ” I got goose bumps. That is what it is all about. Just those 4 words. At the end of the day.. when all is still and one is laying in bed…

    We should all ask ourselves these words. Do I own my own soul ? I personally believe in a higher power who I call God. I am not religious. I loathe organized religion.

    But I am extremely spiritual. and God lives through my soul, but I? I own my own soul. At one time my soul belonged to another to manipulate and control..I took it back.. and today I OWN it.

    Thank you for your words. I have just printed them out on digital art for my computer.

  142. Hi Marty,

    Regarding: ‘My sincere advice to any people still caught in this vicious circle is to move on.’

    Move on to what? There’s the rub. You are right. I’ve read so much about Scientology and about you specifically, and, IMO, you continue to be correct over and over again.

    As you show time and again, Scientology is in a terrible state of confusion due to the inconsistencies L Ron left as his legacy. You appear to be doing a fine job sifting through everything and finding those things which are capable of being standards, but to what end?

    While I might not be a competent judge, I believe that you are the best auditor in the world. This is based on what I’ve read on the subject as well as the fact that you were chosen to audit big names. You truly understand the goal. But even if I could wave a magic wand and make DM disappear and make you appear in his office with his abilities to do whatever you wanted, it wouldn’t enable a smooth recovery of Scientology as a religion. Even if you chose to use that newfound power to correct the problems DM started when he dismantled L Ron’s checks and balances system of CST, RTC and CSI, you would still face the problems encountered by trying to revise L Ron’s inconsistent legacy in the midst of thousands that refuse to discount ‘even one single’ of his words.

    What I hope you are trying to do is to trash the crap and give the world something to move on to. I’m sensing that you are not targeting (yet not forgetting) Scientologists in this future goal, and that your next book will give us all something to move on to.

    I’m sure you realize that any organization that gives a person a place to live and food to eat in exchange for work looks good to humans that are having a hard time making ends meet in a world that is run by super rich people who don’t care about the little guy. I mentioned before that the problems facing Scientology are analogous to the problems facing the rest of humanity right now. We all want to be set free from our captors, but our captors are taking care of us (for the most part) and that keeps us in line.

    I’ve tried to make the point that humanity’s true function has been taken from us due to a misinterpretation of a law of heavenly motion. This mistaken idea has caused humanity to flounder instead of thrive. We should be concerned with the physical, mental and spiritual health of ourselves, each other and the bigger beings we constantly share space with – our Planet, Solar System, Galaxy and Universe. I believe we can not only thrive while doing these things, I also believe we can have loads of fun. Life is getting suckier and suckier. Human trafficking is at an all time high, pedophiles are ruining the lives of our future human immune cells and world war III seems to be almost upon us.

    I don’t know if your next book is complete, but I hope not. I want you to reconsider humanity’s true function when you launch your ‘something worth moving on to’.

    I’ve been told by some that I make sense, but not everybody sees it instantly. The things I’ve studied have been studied by many others before me, but my conclusion seems to be unique. I believe that is because I:

    1. Learned how to read the logic puzzles in the Bible and the Bhagavad Gita.

    2. Noticed that the Mormons messed things up 150 years ago when they didn’t implement the system of wards properly.

    3. Met a Mandaean Priest and learned that there is a long hidden book that explains that there are spirits being detained in Heavenly Bodies.

    4. Came upon Scientology now instead of earlier, and that means I have all the benefits you bring to the table without having to experience the pitfalls under the current establishment.

    My unique view includes the idea that we are the immune system of the Universe and that humans were made in such a way as to be analogous to the Universal body, so we can learn to offer health to the Creator.

    When I added ‘the parts of Scientology worth saving’ to my unique view, I came to the conclusion that Dianetics is part of the solution to the Universe’s spiritual problems – the devil is one of the Universe’s living engrams. This is all new to me, so I am meditating upon it any time I have a free moment. I believe my thetan is compelling me to continue trying to influence you. You already tried to say you don’t believe you are qualified to help me. But I am not asking you to help me alone. I want you to help humanity, as well as our living Planet, Solar System, Galaxy and Universe. The goal is health for one and all.

    You are the moderator of this blog, right? Then you have seen my posts. Perhaps they are making more sense than my original essay, because they are put into specific contexts. Are you softening to my point of view at all, Marty? Is it possible that setting a goal for humanity – Universal Health – is within the scope of your plans, as well?

    I have hope. You are ‘above the line’, Marty. People above the line can make changes in the world. The BBC will take your call. The Dalai Lama might take your call, but His office would take the BBC’s call, if not yours. Therefore, you are one or two steps away from being able to discuss world policy with the Dalai Lama. I believe He is the human body that has the Universe’s THETAN inside of Him. He came here to help, but he requires ‘waking up’. Notice how He is ‘running around in His pajamas mumbling the language of the day’? This is not His ‘best foot forward’. If I can be allowed to wake Him up, then He can pass judgment on my unique views. He will require auditing, as well.

    I tend to be healthy, but I had another near death experience on Labor Day. A bad asthma attack almost took me out again while I was swimming in the ocean. This leaves me anxious for the well being of my research. If I die, I don’t know that there is anyone who would continue trying to wake up the world. I just want what’s right and good and healthy for everyone – big and small.

    Thank you for all of your hard work, and I look forward to reading your new book.


  143. I do want to add.. You will never hear me quote the Bible. I have never read it. I have discussed with close friends if and when the subject comes up..Some believe, some don’t, but that’s OK.. I have faith.

  144. Hi, I know this is off topic but can you upload or send me by e-mail the ethics repair list, as the link in its respective post its dead. Thanks.

  145. Your advice is good, as always.

  146. I mean, you know, if the purpose is to “protect you” “fight for you” “defend you” etc etc. If it is some obligation towards you. You just let them know that burden has been lifted. Amazing the loyalty some beings are capable of.

  147. Identity, viewpoint, the self, congruence, purposes, the ego. YOU.

    Let’s just start off simply and plainly. If, by some method or mechanism, you were able to remove ALL viewpoints and identities, including all filters as has been used as a noun for such things as of late, you would have to be sitting out in no space, doing nothing, with no interaction with anyone, in a perfect bliss of nothingness. To put it in real terms, sitting in a cave on top of an inaccessible mountain, in a lotus position thinking of nothing. And even that is a bit of an identity.

    Not my kind of a life. Every kind of action, interaction, thought or decision of any kind requires a viewpoint, an identity of one sort of another. What has been talked about lately are subconscious, stuck, habitual or even acquired viewpoints.

    But to go about some sort of improvement, by most peoples standards, to rid yourself of undesirable outlooks, so called filters, is not so straightforward. To try to look through the filters of viewpoint, to try to find your true self, the basic individual, can be therapeutic and may do some good. It could raise IQ a bit and improve your life by some margin. But it has limited workability. There is just so much that can be done with self discipline and acquired wisdom, working toward a goal that does not exist at the end of you search.

    Excerpt from a post earlier this week: “How many people are capable of looking at their opinion, and another’s opinion, accurately and freely from a third person viewpoint, even if they try? The idea of erasing one’s viewpoint, of being completely open and seeing everything just as it is, sounds noble and pure, but this ability would be useless without the ability to assume any viewpoint easily at any time for any purpose.
    The key word in this last sentence is useless, or ‘use’, which implies DOING, ACTION, PURPOSE. Activity requires a viewpoint of some sort or another, whether up down, good bad, pro or con. A broad and enlightened viewpoint is actually the ability to choose any viewpoint at any time, according to purpose. The ability to change one’s viewpoint according to need or wish.
    To honestly and gainfully engage in any discussion, one must have control and freedom over his own viewpoints.
    Exercise for anyone reading this now.
    FIND A VIEWPOINT THAT WAS GIVEN (OBSERVED, SUGGESTED, STRESSED, ENFORCED)TO YOU”. The wording would need to be adjusted for each individual and each persons understanding of individuality. It can be expanded to include identity and a number of related concepts. A simple, practical exercise with benefits obvious to anyone, layman or journeyman, who has been keeping up with opinions on this site as of late.

    L Ron had a set of processes which were intended to work toward some freedom in a similar area. It was included on the version of OT-8 that is found online. It is a partial work around, perhaps workable in taking some charge off this area, releasing some flexibility, but just missing the central point of gaining the ability to knowingly assume any viewpoint at any moment.

    This is the goal of freedom and clarity. Identities are created, invented and should be discarded easily. There are various reasons they can get stuck and out of one’s control. This is a good start in reversing that trend.

  148. Mark N Roberts

    Hi again Marildi.
    The point about my Father’s observation of a few Cl-6’s was that it would take 50-100 yrs to fully comprehend, understand and gain full use of all the SHSBC materiel through study, use, study, use on and on, assuming it is ALL proven correct through observation. Having that much information thrown at anyone at such a rate would drive most anyone nuts. Not to mention having one’s right to evaluate that data thoroughly by-passed. Any data force fed at a high rate suppresses that right.
    That’s all I was trying to say.

  149. Mark N Roberts

    See my reply to Marildi. It should settle most of the controversy that I inadvertently started.

  150. Mark N Roberts

    My reply removes the unanswered questions that my statement about CL-6s may have left. It’s not complicated. Hope it helps.

  151. Michael Fairman

    The tech and admin vols, GAT I and GAT II, reenforced by the G A K, so micro, micro manage the staff and public that the opportunity for original and creative thought and action are straight-jacketed. Add to this the punitive measures against really questioning or deviating from Hubbard , and now Miscavige, and that invariably ends up with an insanity of varying degrees, infecting both the staffs and the parishioners. Other than within dictatorships, and other totalitarian regimes, such enforcement of thought and behavior exists in the military. Ironically, in the army for example, commanders, from platoon leaders up to Army Corps commanders, are encouraged to think and act improvisationally as the battle develops. But the rank and file are hammered relentlessly to obey orders instantly and without question, for the survival of the group. But even the individual soldier improvises under certain dire situations – Medal of Honor citations attest to that.

    There doesn’t appear to be any improvisation, original thinking or action by Scientology parishioners and staff; except for Hubbard and now Miscavige, who moves in any direction he pleases. He is like the head of a snake (my apologies to snakes) with the length of the body unable to do anything but slither behind. Clears and OT’s, who according to “scripture”, should be self and pan-determined, are anything but. These states are a sham. In fact the higher the state, the more other-determined they seem to be. It is no wonder the highest level auditors have gone bat shit crazy, for they have in fact produced zombies.

    Scientology which trumpets the arrival of a “New Civilization” appears to have done nothing to effect even the slightest positive change in the arenas of politics, economics, education, medicine, philosophy, sociology or the physical sciences. What it does offer is negative criticism of all these at its best, and destruction at its worst. It has now sunk to equating donations of money with spiritual advancement, and the religion’s expansion; and the periodic repackaging of Hubbard’s words is designed to give the illusion that the “true” scriptures have finally been discovered. Sham building upon sham. Shame building upon shame.

  152. Thank you Silvia.
    But you said “most of them trained by LRH” and no Flag Class XII was trained by LRH. Supak and Gelfan were never on the Apollo and since I departed the FSO there has never been an LRH trained XII. They all trained at the Flag Land Base. They were used like machines. They were stat producers and milked like cows to sit in the chair year in and year out (no exercise time, no day off, no annual leave etc etc) and of course they deteriorated as did the Ls with Miscavige made up additions and deletions.
    Your story of what goes on there in the tech area was fabulous.

  153. My understanding of OT is and was always .. Knowingness, Responsibility, Control (KRC) .. if you have got that .. you can expand it, and which can go up in eternity .. lets take Control .. which is Start, Change, Stop .. so on .. can you SCS an atomic bomb? The ability is maybe to stop the start, also make it not happen in the first place ..

    I my youth, when I started with Scientology .. I had the idea of being able to be some time in the future .. so my present time was slightly above the present time of others .. so I thought that I should increase this timespan on my will for becoming more OT .. there was never an idea of becoming Clear involved .. see what I mean? Control is Start, Change, Stop .. yes so is said from Nietzsche and from Hubbard .. but what is if you change or stop the start you come into another field .. this is whether reality -centric nor self-centric .. it is both at the same time ..

    See, there is nobody in Scientology who stays above present time, when I came into the church I said: with this technology which you present me now, you will have years in the future the problem that everyone must come back to the beginning again .. re-do everything because it is basically a no done in the first place .. you cannot run a none existing thing as a mind .. but you will create a mind .. and then you have to clear that again .. and again .. up to the point where you find out it is all nothing and the beginning of it is you yourself .. it means simply that auditing is a Cycle of Action which is again Start, Change, Stop .. but here straight in the line .. not possible to go out of the line ..

    You may not understand it completely, but I wanted only to say that an OT depends not on a line about Start, Change, Stop .. he should be able to mix it per random as needed ..

    Can you think about a preclear who knows the question before the auditor did ask about? What happens then with the e-meter?

    This is the way how it goes with re-dos .. you know the question in your mind before the question is given .. only a ritual – nothing else .. it will never make an OT nor an Übermensch ..

    I wanted to say that ..

  154. Let me tell another story .. I did once my objectives in 1978 .. learned that one can expand present time .. means, how long is present time? It is a millisecond, a second, a minute, an hour, a day, a week, a month, a year or a life time .. present time says not how long it is .. naturally everybody thinks it is the moment which is right now .. but I think it is not the way a thetan thinks about present time .. present time can also be the whole story of the mest universe .. means it is not build by god or a higher being but simply a created present time .. our time ..

    As a young boy I decided to stay about one second beside .. and with it I was not part of the mest universe .. I was per LRH definition then always exterior .. I will say the Int Rundown of LRH do not cover this .. he has no question about: did somebody forced you to a certain present time? You are as much OT as much present time you can have ..

  155. Off Topic . I think it was over a year ago I mentioned my name on this blog , after that I stopped getting junk mail from the scientology cult, which was great not to be getting mail from that cult .
    But today I received a hand written letter from the letter register at saint hill in the UK asking when I first felt I wanted to come off their list , I never asked to come off their mailing list !
    I asked to be declared on this blog over a year ago and then I stopped getting letters from the cult .
    Do they not know I am declared at saint hill in the UK ?

  156. In this blog is spoken much about Buddha .. Siddhartha Gautama was his name .. and then so called as Buddha (Erwachter) .. but after his death. All of him is written many years later. Siddhartha Gautama was a good man and tried to help others out of desaster .. and it is 2.500 years ago .. he had good clothes and was rich enough for not going to work as others did .. and was a real friendly man on earth .. maybe he is exteriorized under a tree as LRH descibes it somewhere .. but this looks like bullshit .. Buddism is a way to say: live a good live and give some gospel about it ..

    This is the same as Jesus from Nazareth did. It is said that he did learn in India about Buddism .. probably he did .. he came back after 18 years and proclaimed his view of: being a good people .. sometimes later came Mohhammed (Muhammad ibn ʿAbd Allāh ibn ʿAbd al-Muttalib ibn Hāschim ibn ʿAbd Manāf al-Quraschī ) around .. and he gave his sight of freedom for which one should fight ..

    Basically it is Truth, Love, Fight .. basically this are all religions we have .. there are some others like help and protect nature cults .. like the ape is my brother or so .. anyway .. all is true ..

    Then came Hubbard and said somewhere he was Metaya, also the reincarnation of Buddha .. but certainly Siddhartha Gautama wrote such stuff never himself .. so is with all god like people, none wrote ever about himself a great stpry .. others did ..

    Buddism is a religion which tells you how you should look and feel about yourself. Cristians look at your neigbour and hold friendship. Islam looks how you can hold your tradition ..

    All okay and can integrate together. LRH did figure something through the lines .. and wanted to eleminate the reactive mind .. finally he found out that the R6 Bank is BTs .. which means that everybody is at all time influenced by alien thetans since 75 Mio years .. that is his catastrophe ..

    LRH doesn’t tell how you got such beasts on your side. He doesn’t say also whether you were also a victim of this implant in a nowhere place .. I mean you are the boss of all clusters .. and you are a cluster yourself .. this is what he found out .. and he died with it .. it is a religion of dying ..

    As said above, religions did promote Truth, Love, Fight .. and LRH did fix it up down do nothing else than Dying .. already death for millions .. and he wanted you to wake up .. nice goal ..

  157. Hi Marildi –

    Here is what Mark originally wrote:

    My father had pointed out, 30 yrs ago, that all the briefing course grads that HE had met were a bit psycho. I have since attributed it to being force fed huge amounts of information that they, themselves could not evaluate and fully assimilate. Not to mention, actually discover, for themselves, if it was actually correct. A disaster for anyone in any field. I have not had the opportunity to investigate if my IDEA is accurate.

    30 years ago the SHSBC checksheet in use was one written by Melanie Seidler-Murray. She was a Class 8 auditor, fully interned, who worked in the CMO with Hubbard to develop the tech. She is the original author of the “What is a Course?” HCOB and many others on Scientology study tech.

    That BC checksheet 30 years ago was very different from the one used today for the BC. The practicals on that BC checksheet contained items where you regularly took pcs in to session to apply the auditing actions you had just studied.

    These auditing actions have been removed from the BC checksheet presently in use, all moved to the very end of the course on Level O and Level P.

    The “balance of mass and significance”, “attention to gradients” etc – including auditing pcs on actions the student has just studied – were all fully applied in that earlier checksheet. I know this first hand because I was a BC student myself and I have gone over this earlier BC checksheet with Melanie Murray herself and compared the subsequent BC checksheet to it, discussing all this with her.

    Mark’s original observation that ” I have since attributed it to being force fed huge amounts of information that they, themselves could not evaluate and fully assimilate. Not to mention, actually discover, for themselves, if it was actually correct. A disaster for anyone in any field.” probably did not contain this information.

    You are grasping at straws, Marildi.

    You are searching for any reason you can find to explain away even the lightest, most off-hand comment regarding failed Scientology results.

    This is how a person remains stuck in the Scientology mindset in the face of overwhelming evidence that they should not be stuck there.

    It proves that you can not use Scientology to evaluate the results of Scientology.


  158. martyrathbun09

    I don’t have a clue.

  159. Learning does not occur on a gradient. Learning “lights up” many parts of the brain, so that actual observed learning includes prelearning, and synthesis. This is an excellent example of how Scientology traps minds by setting a false premise in place that is accepted as fact.
    Scientology thinking is like a sealed can. Alonzo and Marty in this exchange are the can openers.

  160. “I conjure you, my brethren, REMAIN TRUE TO THE EARTH, and believe not those who speak unto you of superearthly hopes! Poisoners are they, whether they know it or not.” ~ ZARATHUSTRA’S PROLOGUE (3)

  161. Excellent post

  162. Mark wrote:

    The point about my Father’s observation of a few Cl-6’s was that it would take 50-100 yrs to fully comprehend, understand and gain full use of all the SHSBC materiel through study, use, study, use on and on, assuming it is ALL proven correct through observation. Having that much information thrown at anyone at such a rate would drive most anyone nuts. Not to mention having one’s right to evaluate that data thoroughly by-passed. Any data force fed at a high rate suppresses that right.
    That’s all I was trying to say.

    Thanks for this clarification, Mark.

    My reply to Marildi below shows that the checksheet in use at the time of your father’s observation addressed just that problem on the SHSBC at the time your father made his observation. In fact, the checksheet author expressed your exact concern as the major hurdle to overcome in writing the checksheet for the Saint Hill Special Briefing Course.

    Your father’s observation that “30 yrs ago, that all the briefing course grads that HE had met were a bit psycho. still stands, and should not be discounted or excused.

    You should not look away from the fact that training as an auditor in Scientology is what is supposed to create stable, powerful human beings who are more more able to handle life – never a person who was “a bit psycho”.

    The results of Scientology are the results of Scientology.


  163. Excellent post, Michael.

    Spot on.

    Alanzo (:>

  164. This only tells me about the sorry state of materials on SHSBC, that they were not organized at all.

    The knowledge to properly audit somebody should not take that long.

  165. Mark: “Let’s just start off simply and plainly. If, by some method or mechanism, you were able to remove ALL viewpoints and identities, including all filters as has been used as a noun for such things as of late, you would have to be sitting out in no space, doing nothing, with no interaction with anyone, in a perfect bliss of nothingness. To put it in real terms, sitting in a cave on top of an inaccessible mountain, in a lotus position thinking of nothing. And even that is a bit of an identity.”

    There is no need to do that. To bring about improvement all one needs to do is remove inconsistencies only. 🙂

  166. Vinaire,

    You are getting entangled with words as usual. Hubbard as well as many other philosophers before him and I’m sure after him, CORRUPTED, the non-dualistic higher states of mind into tools of control and propaganda to sell their pipe dreams.

  167. Thanks, BB – That humbles me.


  168. Read this:

    I think you will like it.

    Written by the Apostle Paul, who, judging only by the books he wrote in the New Testament, was an outstanding man. I have found comfort and wisdom and love in the Bible, which helped offset the mechanical cruelty aspects of Scientology (“No case on post.” “The way out is the way through”, “You pulled it in,” “Make it go right!”, declarations of SP, “Enemy,” “Treason,” and of course, the cream from the COB himself “YSCOHB!”). I did go to a Christian church for a few months with a friend – I enjoyed it, but I am not a Christian. That, however, did not prevent me from getting wisdom from the Bible. 1st Corinthians 13 is a famous passage, but since I was not raised as a Christian, it was completely new to me when I read it the first time a few years ago – and I believe it sums things up beautifully.

  169. I gotcha – Yes. I agree.

  170. Oracle,

    That is not just DM, that is all Hubbard my dear. All the way from “it is a tough universe and only the tiger survives” to “you need a bigger stick”

    Hubbard was all Darwinian, He pushed his tooth and claws universe crap as a justification for his greed, megalomania and obsession to control others.

    Scientologists for the most part can not even understand what is behind Hubbard’s “survival” meme, let alone understand the thought implant that comes along with that misperception.

  171. I have hesitated to weigh in on this discussion not being sure how I might help rather than just stir up unhelpful discussion.

    This is primarily in response to the recent comment made by Vinaire:
    “You can’t understand the results of Scientology by thinking with Scientology”

    This unleashed a bunch of comments – some in my mind poignant and helpful – others in my mind, unkind and not helpful.

    I said much the same thing several blog posts ago as I attempted to show HOW I took every word a buddhist teacher would say FOR YEARS and compared it to my knowledge of Scientology. Which would then determine FOR ME whether that teaching by the buddhist was valid with what I found to be TRUE FOR ME in Scientology. It was hard to stop thinking with the mind of Scientology — FOR ME.


    I’ve decided to again weigh in on this very frustrating subject. One which Marty takes inordinate time and patience to attempt to shine light on.

    Rather than attempt to point this out with something as VAST as buddhism, or Christianity or any of the other religions of the world …

    I’m going to suggest — as Marty once did ages ago — a small tiny book
    by Don Miguel Ruiz (Sr) … “The Four Agreements”

    There is also a website wwwDOTtoltecspiritDOTcom – now led by his son.

    The Four Agreements are so painfully simply it’s easy to dismiss them out of hand, saying OH I already know this OR do this and yet quite difficult to REALLY follow AND ALSO — guess what? Cults have developed AROUND them and the Toltec teachings.

    HOW DO I KNOW — because for 3 short but rather interesting years I was part of one. Years after Scientology. Some of my friends/acquaintances from those years are STILL INVOLVED. Interestingly, sadly and almost inevitably — the CULT LEADER of my Toltec group – died SUDDENLY of a heart attack a couple of years after HIS administrative director and “main disciple” also died suddenly and unexpectedly.

    And guess what? Suicides WERE also a part of this cult (which only came around sometime in 1997 or so but is still extant in South Africa mainly with only a core 2 dozen or so left) (the leader of this group a South African rode on the coat tails of the Four Agreement popularity — but developed his “philosophy” based on Carlos Castaneda’s popular books in the ’70’s)


    ANYTHING can and most often DOES become a “cult” of some sort … first there is the NEED, as a human being to stem the suffering of our human condition … and so it goes.

    IF you haven’t read the Four Agreements — it’s 160 pages long and well worth the $8.00 for the paperback or kindle edition.

    It is considered now the number one book of it’s type on Amazon ranking.

    As I said — be warned — it could be come your next cult


    With love,

  172. It is superearthly hope in Scientology that a being creates this universe with his agreement.

  173. Cussin-A. Exactly right. I had a twin on the BC that, even on the final stretch of tapes on Level E (the penultimate level back then before graduating) would have his head in a dictionary every 3-5 minutes looking up some word or another, and he was pissed that I could listen to a tape and only have to look up one or two, if any. On Level E, you have read or listened to, what, a million+ words uttered by the OId Man? I told him “English has a finite number of words. Eventually, you know them all. Why the hell are you finding so many misunderstood words three years into the course?”

    My IQ has been measured as anywhere from 125 when I was a kid to over 150 – and knowing how much common sense I lacked over the years, I don’t put too much stock in IQ.

    I have found consistency on the auditing side, but I looked for it and refused to move foreword if I didn’t understand it.

    The issues you ran into are the main reasons I never stayed on staff long. So much bullshit.

  174. Hello Marty,

    thank you for the post.


  175. Hi there Mr. Conan.
    It is my understanding that Man, in his current state, is driven by his dynamics and to some extent a slave to them. With a bit of clarity and unfixing, one can become creator and master of his dynamics. Since we are dynamic in nature, dynamics would not disappear, but simply become a matter of choice and desired purpose. Not a free for all of no responsibility, but a new combination of freedom and wisdom.

  176. A brilliant post that shows or could show those once in the military how INDEED during times of extreme battle from the top to the bottom “are encouraged to think and act improvisationally as the battle develops”

    To wit the Metal of Honor citations and those of the Silver Star.

    I have no experience with war on the ground or otherwise.

    So I deeply appreciate this analogy.


  177. Am I allowed to pee while reading the book? Sorry about that, please forgive me.
    I endeavor to go over every subject as a whole, every chapter for it’s complete merit, every sentence for it’s meaning and even every word for its intent. There is truth to be found in every work. Never allow your learning to be alloyed, minute by minute.
    Thanks for the info, Mark

  178. Granny — I am sorry to hear about your recent near death experience it must have been frightening.

    As for what you recently said in your comment:

    “But even if I could wave a magic wand and make DM disappear and make you appear in his office with his abilities to do whatever you wanted, it wouldn’t enable a smooth recovery of Scientology as a religion.”

    I am NOT speaking for Marty but from my own travels and experiences …

    There is NO magic wand.

    None. It is ALL ultimately up to me and how I have understood and incorporated my OWN journey.

    In the words of Shantideva — circa 800 AD …

    “No one shares our fate and none our suffering.”

    With love,

  179. Mark N Roberts,

    You as well as the other die-hard scientologists have not understood nor transcended Hubbard’s survival meme.

    But you seem to be insisting on having superior spiritual knowledge and bent on patronizing others that can see and are aware.

    You have a long ways to go my friend.

  180. Gerhard Waterkamp

    As far as the consistency debate goes the biggest consistency I think gets overlooked.
    As Aleister Crowley coined the motto “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law (…in love)” as a reflex to the Victorian times. So LRH came up with a variant of it by marrying it with Franz Emmanuel August Geibel’s poem „Deutschlands Beruf“ which ends: “und es mag am deutschen Wesen einmal noch die Welt genesen!“ Which is another expression of the thought all would be good „if everyone was just like me“. LRH had apparently really bought into that concept. And so his motto became “Do what I wilt shall be the whole of the law. (….basta)”.
    And that is the consistent motto of Scientology in and out of the CO$. The debate and claims about “…how LRH always wanted it…” is the clear give away about the consistent core of it.
    The more I read and look at the context the more it becomes clear how LRH raped and pillaged the work of others with the only purpose to inspire awe, flabbergast and overwhelm of others so his law will be accomplished. The critique on the consistency or inconsistency of Scientology tech is under this viewpoint mute. LRH was never in the business of creating a systematic consistent body of science. He was looking for the fireworks with which to impress his will and personality on others. What ever worked in that regard was the “breakthrough” of the day.
    And one has to hand it to him, he was successful with a whole many of folks. There is his money grabbing greedy organization dedicated to follow the law: “Do what I wilt (…or else)” as well as many independents doing the same. (The fact that the interpretation of that ‘Will’ vary between factions does not change the fact they try to follow the same law.)
    LRH was even so successful to the degree that he was able to imprint his personality traits on many of those who are “highly trained”. As Marty pointed out by societal standards many of them would be considered cuckoo. Even the ones outside the church screaming “abuses, abuses” the loudest, are often still caught in the narcissistic LRH valence that Scientology implanted or nurtured in them.

    If somebody wants to take LRH’s “fireworks” treasure chest and put in the labor to inspect and test and measure along objective standards what can be used to help people, they may come up with something useful and consistent (after having to disregard a whole lot of it). But that would not be Scientology, it would be something completely different and true Scientologists of all colors would fight it tooth and nail.
    One could say the definition of a Scientologist is somebody trying to forward and enforce the will of LRH. (or his or her understanding of it)

    The real standard tech is how to make people comply with LRH’s law. The other stuff is naturally all over the place.

  181. OK, I myself do not believe in body thetans and I think they can only give people trouble if they believe in them because believing in them causes them to exist , I think that is the way it works .

  182. Beautiful. I only have read parts of that before. Real nice. It’s funny how I can agree with something but still I feel that it is a limited theory. Probably good most of the time but not always.

  183. Mark — what in my comment provoked your “Am I allowed to pee while reading the book?”

    I’m not offended so no need to be sorry or ask for forgiveness.

    I just don’t quite get your comment. I appreciate your comments that followed … and I agree there is usually truth to be found in every work even if it is the opposite of what was imparted.


  184. This is my two cents about Oracle’s observations that Scientology is a communist like form of government, and Marty’s adding the Chinese type of mind control inserted in it by Hubbard.

    Scientology was actually built by Hubbard as a Theocracy

    If you take a look at past great civilizations, you’ll see that most of them were built as or degenerated into Theocracies.

    They were run by God-Kings and High priests. They were built as pyramids with unrestrained powers concentrated in the hands of a few.

    Those civilizations are often described as being more irrational the closer you got to the top, and characterized as governed by superstition and magical thinking.

    Theocracies were the tried and true method of corralling the freewheeling hunter gatherers cultures into obedient denizens, serfs and slaves. And
    along with losing their physical autonomy, the hunter gatherers also lost their innate rights to access mind and the supernatural without the religious mongers and high priests.

    I think that the difficulty that some die-hard scientologists still have in identifying what has actually taken place in Scientology, has to do with the following:

    1) Hubbard asserted at all times that Scientology was a science based therapy, and as Marty brilliantly expounded, a Rogerian type therapy to boot.

    2) Hubbard purposefully misdirected people away from the religious angle, by invalidating every known religion and by positioning the religious status of scientology as a ‘formality”, “legal requirement”, “social acceptance agreement”, etc.

    3) Naturally as auditors and consumers of Scientology concentrated on the tech of auditing, they became oblivious to the religious web the Grand Joker was weaving all around them, but slowly and surely any one fascinated with the goals promised by Scientology found themselves eventually trapped in the Church of Satan and under Hubbard ‘s spell.

    4) Hubbard employed the methods of mind control which were fully developed throughout his time (1910s-1950s). They were non-religious in nature, so that added more confusion to the mix. Religion supremacy had already faded into the background, and what had emerged was science, materialism and the struggle for political power; characterized by asymmetric warfare,, heavy use of propaganda, and mind control technics,

    In the 20th century the God-Kings and High priests of old, were replaced by political dictators, father figures with pseudo religious connotations.
    Hence the corny and embarrassing Ron photographs, Ron clapping, LRH offices and the unending brain washing memes Hubbard shoved on everybody’s faces.

    Scientologists born in the US and England would not have been prepared for what Hubbard had in store for them, as they would’ve lacked the life experience and knowledge necessary to identify the wholesale loss of their civil liberties. Just take ownership of what happened, learn from the experience and move on.


  185. If dm wanted to change things and had to resort to GAT to do it because of LRH’s KSW writings, why couldn’t the cob just forge some LRH advice to justify his actions?

  186. Yes, Windhorse, frightening and motivating. Impermanence!
    Shantideva was incorrect. This fractal Universe is alive at all levels, and we rest inside of 4 larger individuals who do, in fact, feel our pain and suffering.

    Russian Voodoo Dolls by GrannyDeepSea

    We’re like the tiniest Russian doll
    The one in the center, all nestled inside
    When all the fine sisters are bundled together
    The tiny one’s just along for the ride

    We’re sharing their space here deep within
    Our bodies and souls are perceived by all
    When we pay attention with cunning minds
    We can almost hear their distant call

    The place that we live is not like theirs
    Our freedom of motion is not their way
    Their heavenly bodies obey their paths
    So the tiniest dolls can run and play

    Their wanderings carry us unperceived
    We rotate, revolve and hurdle through space
    But because we’re so little we miss it all
    And feel like we’re standing in the same place

    A problem arises with six billion names
    Resounding through heaven’s sacred halls
    When we are in mental or physical pain
    Then we are turned into voodoo dolls

    How do we want to be perceived
    As devices of torture against our nest
    Or as free floating spirits of love and joy
    We should clean up our act and try our best

    If nobody ever told you the truth
    It’d be quite a shock if they ended it all
    But knowing we’re not only hurting ourselves
    Please consider this poem as a wake up call

  187. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    We have an OT8 and class V graduate in our field that has done anything on the bridge and was very fast flying up the echelons. His chronic emotion is similar to a bulldozer and he loves to pr his OTness, whatever that is.
    About 15 years ago when he already was an 0T8 I checked him out on Gat Student Hat and found misunderstood words in very simple sentences. I couldn’t believe it and asked myself how could he do the whole bridge with such basic misunderstoods on Student Hat.
    Some years later I got some E-Mails from him, that his wife failed to proofread. His writing was this of an 6-7 years old kid, No command of Orthography or Grammar and ability to formulate a coherent sentence. I just felt pity for him.

    Another OT that was on OT7 went to the the ship to complete his OT7. He sent us a copy of a condition formula that he had to do before attesting. My wife and I knew instantly that the decisions he made were just lies and pr in order he can attest. We thought about telling this to the Maa of the ship, but decided to not stir up any trouble. One year later he told us that we were right . He just wanted to attest.

    Another OT7 told us about a kid in his neighbourghood being on Ritalin and how horrible the spychs are. We asked him what he ‘ll do about it. he meant “nothing as he is auditing that stuff on a global level”.

    A class VI C/S and on OT7, a lesbian, started a sexual relationship with another staff on OT7 that was married,and had a young baby.

    Once I was partaking at a Event in Switzerland where David Mayo, the Senior C/S international, gave a speech abou dissemination. He was very monotone in his speech and didn’t show any real interest in the audience.


    I know some will say I natter, but in 35 years in I haven’t seen anywhere an OT or an auditor living up to the ideals. Just normal human beings. I wouldn’t care if they wouldn’t pr about being Homo Novis. I ve seen many wogs being close to that ideal without having to pr about it. They just are…..

  188. Mark, thanks for the additional information. You say your father’s observation was of “a few” Class 6’s. I also observed a few Class 6’s during the same period of time of around 30 years ago, and I never saw them as “a bit nuts” – rather the opposite. That’s why I questioned what the circumstances were of the training of the ones your father had observed.

    Al has pointed out that it was about the same time the checksheets were changed, so that might be one thing to account for the different circumstances and the different outcomes. This is an example of why it seems to me to always come back to the question of WHICH “scientology” tech we’re talking about. In other words, which is being applied – how, when and even where, all the way down to which courseroom and Supervisor.

    That relates to what you said about “one’s right to evaluate that data [being] thoroughly by-passed.” Consider Grasshopper’s comment on his experience as a Briefing Course student, where he stated, “I have found consistency on the auditing side, but I looked for it and refused to move foreword if I didn’t understand it.” Course Supervisors are SUPPOSED to ensure that this is the way a student studies, but obviously that hasn’t always occurred in some applications of “scientology.”

  189. Windhorse: This is primarily in response to the recent comment made by Vinaire: “You can’t understand the results of Scientology by thinking with Scientology”

    This was a comment made by Alanzo, and I agree with it. A philosophy can be very consistent in itself, and yet be inconsistent in a larger context.

    To fully understand reality one needs to continually look for inconsistencies and resolve them. Ultimately, one would have to resolve the inconsistencies in the context of the universe.

  190. Vinaire

    Perhaps another possibility is that the “tech” is not capable of producing rave results on every person. Yes, the “raves” are still there, being expected, but were they actually supported by real results? When there were no “rave” results they were either “corrected” or hushed. (“corrected” here does not necessarily mean that a real result was actually achieved. A suitable success story seems to be all that was required in many cases.)

    The ban on people actually talking about how their auditing went tends to obscure the real truth about how people really felt about their auditing, or its results…. or perhaps it was only me who got creative on success stories and answers to questions on my “wins’ from some particular action.

    I suspect that it is possible that as more and more people received the Ls, there were more and more who, although they voiced rave results, seemed little improved by outside observers. (or even by themselves after the glow of the “high” fades) I am not saying this was always the case, but it is observable across the entire span of “auditing results”. It appears, to me, to be far more the norm than “stable results”.

    Were a real and honest eval and “why find” to be done on auditing results generally, or some rundown or grade specifically, I think we would be looking at significantly different “whys” than the “shore stories” promote.

    If one were to apply some “real science” to evaluating its workability one might get some interesting results. ( with the “science” evaluating both the objective and the subjective results.)

    Eric S

  191. Alanzo: “You are searching for any reason you can find to explain away even the lightest, most off-hand comment regarding failed Scientology results.”

    I wouldn’t call it “the lightest, most off-hand comment” that all the BC students one knew were “a bit nuts.”

    Other than that, see my reply to Mark, just above, regarding the fact that “scientology” has had many meanings and applications. And to jumble them all together into one, does not give an accurate picture, IMO.

  192. Mark N Roberts

    Thank you for your help, Conan. No, really.
    It may sound like bullsh## or patronizing to you, but I do take into account everything you say. Our opinions and methods differ but our goals are basically the same. Even when I ‘believe’ that you over emphasized some particular point or another, I look for the bit of info that you found that others missed or discounted.
    I will continue to read your comments with the same attention as others.

    As I said earlier, I am on my own trail, discovering for myself.
    Happy trails. Mark

  193. Windhorse: “I said much the same thing several blog posts ago as I attempted to show HOW I took every word a buddhist teacher would say FOR YEARS and compared it to my knowledge of Scientology. Which would then determine FOR ME whether that teaching by the buddhist was valid with what I found to be TRUE FOR ME in Scientology. It was hard to stop thinking with the mind of Scientology — FOR ME.”

    There are two very different acativities here:

    (1) To look at Buddhism through the filter of Scientology. It would be impossible to understand Buddhism that way.

    (2) To freely compare Buddism with Scientology without any filter. This would bring about an understanding greater than both Buddhism and Scientology.


  194. It can happen. People die every day. It can happen. 🙂

  195. Moving out of fixed conditions into ability to do new things? 🙂

  196. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    Very interesting story

  197. Hi Al.
    I enjoyed your post. I worked at Sterling the same time you did. I’ll send you an email.

  198. What a story, Al. You are a great example of how someone who can kick ass gets crushed by the posers who know how to play (and want to play) the “I’m a better Scientologist” game. The church basically played the same crap on me at Executive Software – I had accepted a job there _after_ they sent me the offer, then they backpedaled because I was not “active” enough in Scientology. This was 1994. At that time I was a Class VI, OT IV, and higher trained than anyone at Executive and they had the balls to tell me I was not “active” enough. Turned out to be a blessing: I soon joined KPMG and found out what a REAL employer is like, and never looked back.

    You are not alone. This is actually the story of 100% of the sane people I knew who ever worked with or around WISE.


  199. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    “One could say the definition of a Scientologist is somebody trying to forward and enforce the will of LRH. (or his or her understanding of it)”

    very good definition

  200. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    Bravo 🙂

  201. Really. But it does not sound to me like he was an enemy sociopath to anybody. What was the point of “labelling” him an SP if any mindful person would be able to see the truth in Dr. Winter’s opinion, which is all it is was his professional opinion. This is why David Miscavige’s picture is the only one on the RTC web site. Each year, it is more and more about DM and less and less about the people that built the church. Powell Street is not too far to tricycle down I guess. 🙂

  202. Mark N Roberts

    My comment “allowed to pee” was a very small attempt at humor, believing that your comment ” ……. be warned — it could be come your next cult” was also intended at humor. It was a reference to EST and similar groups which were known for such odd practices. My following comments simply meant that there is value to be found everywhere. Sorry for my feeble humor, it can be a bad habit.

  203. Marildi –

    Other than that, see my reply to Mark, just above, regarding the fact that “scientology” has had many meanings and applications. And to jumble them all together into one, does not give an accurate picture, IMO.

    First you tell Mark “You are probably right that they basically had a lot of information that they had not put it into practice”.

    And then when I prove that wrong, it shifts to ““scientology” has had many meanings and applications. And to jumble them all together into one, does not give an accurate picture, IMO.”

    Remember – the Class 6s that Mark’s dad was observing were probably graduates of that more “in-tech” checksheet from that time and he said “My father had pointed out, 30 yrs ago, that all the briefing course grads that HE had met were a bit psycho“.

    Shifting goal posts, shifting rationalizations, always shifting to a new excuse – even forgetting the previous excuse when that one becomes inconvenient.

    A Scientologist can do this to himself forever.

    It can be endless.

    It can be your own perpetual hamster wheel.


  204. Yes, but, …what’s the story with the emeter costing so freakin’ much and having to be updated and not being permitted to use an older freakin’ model?!

  205. Eric,

    Your post brings an interesting question in my mind.How much counseling does one need to go free?

    I would say that usually there is a single major unwanted condition holding back a person. It does not take much to find and handle that condition. After that the person can pretty much be on his own.

    Scientology is just a set up to milk people. Idenics does a better job to find and handle that first major condition. A success story seems to be a device to cover up Scientology’s ass.

    A real result would be one that a person still remembers as a turning point years later. I only remember three such turning points.

    (1) On the Communications course

    (2) On my first Dianetic Auditing

    (3) On the Running Program pilot


  206. You are correcting me for something I did not say. I never said it is “just DM”. I am making a separate point. I don’t care to have my attention, vocabulary, or ideas monitored, so they align with your assessments. Your condescending “my dears” imply that I open for a tutorial relationship with you. I’m not. I am not interested in being herded or corrected by you.

  207. Wow, what great stories! Thanks for sharing this much of yourself Al, that was very generous. I’ve got some new visions dancing through my head. This one’s for you:

  208. Not based entirely on your story, it never ceases to amaze me the “attitude” of a Church of Scientology in general at large and its members. Their activities boil down to preventing people from achieving and enjoying freedom through the use of Dianetics and Scientology applied religious philosophy. 🙂

  209. It is not really a “common sense” philosophy or cult following, although it may seem like it is so to some, because it is more apparent that Don Miguel Ruiz cognited of sorts on this material and then founded The Four Agreements on it. 🙂

  210. Mark N Roberts

    Conan. Very good post.
    If I skim over the colorful metaphors like “Grand Joker”, then I can see the value of your ideas, such as:
    “Those civilizations are often described as being more irrational the closer you got to the top,”…….
    “In the 20th century the God-Kings and High priests of old, were replaced by political dictators, father figures with pseudo religious connotations.”

    My take on this is a bit simplistic. I see it as similar to the communist revolution in Russia. Some said ‘kill all the landlords and leaders and we will all be free.”
    The actual intent of those promoting these actions were the ones who wanted TO BE IN CHARGE, AUTHORITY OVER OTHERS, and to GET INTO A POSITION WHERE THEY DID NOT HAVE TO DO ANY REAL WORK, PRODUCE ANYTHING.

    It is glaringly obvious that much of the Scn upper mngt. were/are following these purposes, as explained by Al Brown’s recent story.
    Thanks, Mark

  211. Conan, Dianetics and Scientology are like any toy a child finds to play with, eventually the child finds a new toy or invents one. There can be more than one reason for this, transversed to the church’s PTP’s it is obvious the “old toys” in the church are non-applicable and dysfunctional in our present time society. But you are right, LRH wrote them with the future in mind making LRH to that degree non-applicable and dysfuncional on a grand scale.

  212. Friend, these are intriguing comments you write. Just wanted to say that.

  213. Or try a “Triangluar Front Wheeled Tricycle” instead of a Square one? 🙂 I was thinking just the other day about something Marty said that I cognited off of on some maniac named DM racing down the hall at INT Base in a $5,000.00 suit to impress people he is out to save Mankind when he is in the middle of mocking up an O/W! 🙂 The INT Base staffers would stand and watch him in whizz past in awe as if thinking “Wow, there goes the most highly trained OT in the world. Did you get his autograph?”

  214. Mark N Roberts

    A CL-6 (or better) working in N’ville, John Giberson, is the best auditor I have ever had the pleasure of working with, and one man whom I can say is truly a fine person.
    When Ruth Minshul wrote “How to choose your people”, perhaps she should have added a chapter titled “How to choose your auditor.”

    Rather that the ‘tech’ being standardized, it is my observation that auditors are all over the board.

  215. Hi Gerhard,
    I think there could be value in someone looking for the more workable parts of Scientology, whether or not LRH actually discovered those things or not. The point would be to bring together some good therapeutic items minus personality. I haven’t researched other ologies much so I’m not in the position to say whether or not other philosophies have had great success with people. ( I am sure there are many) I am not a Scientologist anymore but I do recall having had some awesome line charges of laughter and tears on many occasions that produced fantastic relief for me. Something worked there. I think it is worthy of retaining it for others and myself when I feel I need some again.
    I can also recall having been stuck in some “mass” for a long time and not wanting to go to Scientology for help. I didn’t want to spend the money and I didn’t like the idea of being dependent on someone else for helping me out of something. I waited months trying to sort it out on my own. I finally caved in and got some auditing and blew tons of charge and had a noticeable rise in tone. I don’t believe that the goal of OT is really attainable anymore but I do believe that Man is capable of greater heights.
    I’m sure he can rise up by many different methods. I see nothing wrong with trying to retain the plus points from the subject of Scientology.

  216. Mark N Roberts

    Vinaire said:
    “The knowledge to properly audit somebody should not take that long.”

    I very much agree, but the fact remains that the information is being thrown at people and it has an effect on them. It is the current state of affairs.

  217. Very good poem!

  218. Mark N Roberts

    Hello Vin.
    As I have described in the past, the basis of my work is “A structured, methodical method of self improvement.”
    This direction of looking at viewpoints, identities is very productive at producing desirable results.
    High workability.
    Sounds dull, shines bright.
    PS: Just try digging into a couple. Low side effects. Fun and easy, the way it should be.

  219. Mark: “The idea of erasing one’s viewpoint, of being completely open and seeing everything just as it is, sounds noble and pure, but this ability would be useless without the ability to assume any viewpoint easily at any time for any purpose.”

    I see it that way too. It’s a beneficial thing to let go of old, unwanted purposes, but that doesn’t necessarily leave you with a purpose you have newly or knowingly chosen.

  220. Thank you Grasshopper.. Yes it is beautiful.

    ” And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.”

  221. That is what Idenics is about. It is nicely worked out by John Galusha. You might want to look at Idenics web site and read the book

  222. Marty I have read Standard Scientology once again and I have some questions for you basically coming from that article but which are pertinent to this post, too. 

Your words in quotation marks and my questions and comments without question marks. I will make my comments on this current post as I re-read it after having read once again Standard Scientology. So here we go:


“Instead, scientology will continuously be revised because there is no such thing as standard scientology technology. Like the substance of scientology itself, what constitutes the standard is wholly a subjective matter.”

    What do you base this assumption upon? Have you personally done the Class VIII course in a Standard Tech course room?
“Just as consistently, he rained hell on anyone with the temerity to suggest holding his theories up to objective standards.”

    What are “objective standards” for you? Can you clarify?

    “The net result of all this is that scientology is destined to always incite debate and internecine strife – no matter how enlightened and wise its leadership may be. “

    It’s unwise leadership that stirs up debates and an unenlightened leader can make a mess of any well functioning organisation. I think Hubbard’s flaw was that he couldn’t conceive of the magnitude of idiocy and arrogance that his followers might have. I am talking about the church management as a whole and as individuals. That was unwise of him, yes.

    “In a strict organizational setting, the debate goes on inside each individual’s head (until settled by an instilled, arrogant brand of cognitive dissonance) while attempting to keep up, lock-step of course, with management’s latest pronunciamentos on what constitutes ‘standard.’ “

    There is no need for management pronunciamentos as to what constitutes standard. Especially by DM who for reasons not known yet has been making such pronunciamentos and they were utterly wrong. 

And there is no debate once you clear up your words, Marty. But I guess this is something that has to worked upon with Scientologists (and not only) on this planet.

  223. Did you know the nots commands were taken from the Bible? There is a passage where Soloman, (if I recall) speaks of waking from a dream and seeing beings in all forms about him. He begins to ask them, “Who are you” and “what are you” questions. Wish I had the exact passage still, but probably anyone interested enough can dig it up.

  224. 90% is probably random repetition and bloviation.

  225. Eric ~
    There is one outrageous lie Flag has used for years to rake in bucks. That is that L-10 will make you STABLY EXTERIOR WITH FULL PERCEPTION.
    What baloney.
    No one ever achieved that EVER.
    I do not believe you can live on planet earth and live in a body and be
    Deception and lies for CASH. Hype for Cash.
    3 Ls on the Apollo $7500. ($2500 meach)
    3 Ls needing repair after repair after repair in FSO $100,000 not counting cost of repairs.
    The Church messes up the procedure and YOU pay again for them to fix up their own errors !

  226. There is also mention in the bible of communicating with animals being a gift:

    …God was pleased with Solomon’s request [for wisdom] and said, “You could have asked for long life or great wealth or victory over your enemies. But instead you asked for wisdom and you shall have you wish. You shall be able to understand the language of the birds and beasts…”

  227. Thanks much Lawrence.
    I remember meeting you that day in New York when Flag promoted to New York City that a Hubbard trained auditor was coming to town !

  228. Thank you Roger. Gwen North got declared. Merrill got declared and died. Leon Steinburg is a successful chiropractor still married to Jill. Ron Shaffron, formerly CS-4 Declared. Pierre Ethier declared.
    What are the odds of every single person ( 100% )who did the brutal internships, burning the midnight oil to get to XII all being suppressive persons ! ROFL !
    Lunatic CULT clobbers everyone in their wake…

  229. Michael Fairman

    ealadhaTh: I discovered “them” to be one’s own considerations, whether self created, or created by others – ie family, media, education etc. etc. But to call them “entities’, apart from self, with their own case, who just don’t know who “they” are, is ludicrous to the point of idiocy. I believe you are absolutely correct. By the time that point on the “bridge” is reached,most are ready to believe anything Hubbard says. When I got to OT III I remember asking a supervisor why I couldn’t just scrub them off in the shower. And yet I went on to 10 years of VII. More the fool I. I suppose Hubbard bought his own nonsense, for he “blew them” for quite a while. Except for the “one” that was spooking him on the fence in Creston. Sad.

  230. martyrathbun09

    The problem with scientology in a nutshell is – as demonstrated by your continual irrational rants – that while it gets you to buy a construct as reality (the reactive mind) the erasure of which will free one from all reactivity, it captures and plies your actual sub-conscious with a reactivity that makes what you had before look like the paragon of reason. Best of wishes for your eventual graduation.

  231. Hi Vinaire

    Yes, that is what I am talking about.

    When I came into Scientology I didn’t really have any “wants handled” items in play. I was there for the data. I still had wins, some of them total life changers… “turning points” as you say, but mostly my auditing, though often interesting, didn’t produce any significant life changing gains.

    Much of what the auditing was addressing was nothing that I had much problem with. Sometimes I had already fully addressed some aspect of my life, but various processes further along seem to have been intent on continuing to handle it… my brief association with recreational drugs, for example. I did three different “drug rundowns”, not including the Purification Rundown, and then there was OT IV still to go…. Enough already!

    Another example… I did L12 recently. I was expecting a lot from the processing, based on the hype. I did have a lot of fun, and I found the auditing processes, and style, very validative, and I did get some different looks at a few things, but I had already achieved the “ability gained” back on Grade 2 auditing. ( in the background I can hear… “Ah, but you obviously never got the full gains of L12.” My response could easily be… “Maybe YOU never got the full gains of Grade 2.” But such comments are really just unfounded assumptions. No one has any real data upon which to base such evaluations. It is totally subjective… There is no science to it.)

    One of the problems that I have isolated with “the bridge” is that there is really no technology within Scientology, that I know of, (or that was ever used on me at any rate), that can accurately determine exactly which processes the “PC” personally needs or will benefit from, or which gains, awarenesses or abilities he has already achieved, wherever they are on “The Bridge”. The whole concept of a common “bridge” for everyone, seems to head more toward a think based on “we’ll just cover all the bases… PC will likely get some wins in there somewhere.” Not really so bad, except when you factor in all the time and money that a person has to burn through in order to find those pearls.

    Yes, it is good that you had those “turning points” from (or simply during, perhaps) those cycles, I have had such significant “turning points” also. Any such event is not to be poo pooed. But I dare to ask… How many “turning points” can one also isolate from other experiences in their lives? Perhaps such a look allows one to view one’s Scientology wins from a broader perspective.


  232. If you want to understand “objective standards” please look up the Scientific Method.

  233. Theo: “I think Hubbard’s flaw was that he couldn’t conceive of the magnitude of idiocy and arrogance that his followers might have.”

    What about the tech, which was at Hubbard’s disposal to fix that idiocy and arrogance? Was there a failure of tech here?

  234. Theo: “And there is no debate once you clear up your words,”

    But what about clearing up words with wrong and/or incomplete definitions assigned to them by Hubbard? The ability to understand is severely compromised when one is looking through the filter that Hubbard is always right.

  235. to back up Marty rathbun:


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  236. Insightful and well expressed. Which came first, the chicken or the egg.

  237. Hi Eric,

    You are very correct. I believe that the best C/S is the person himself.

    Scientology auditing is made up of hundreds of processes. Which process should be run, when, on a person is determined by the C/S. The sequence in which a process is run is also important. A process that didn’t run at one time could run beautifully after some other processes in a different sequence.

    The biggest error is caused by C/Sing a wrong process in the wrong sequence and then trying to F/N it.

    What is missing in Scientology are the instructions provided here: Memory Recall


  238. What I find interesting is that not so long ago you were auditing people with an e-meter and handling BT’s and making Clear adjudications and now apparently there is no reactive mind? Entirely possible.

    Maybe you will end up being a Psychologist. 🙂 ( not that there is anything wrong with that.) Now that would be ironic.

  239. Gerhard Waterkamp

    Hi Tony,
    I think this is where many struggle. “My wins are real, the wins of others are real.”
    I am not arguing to invalidate that.
    The point is saving or promoting the good parts of Scientology is saying saving and promoting the good parts of a slave making system. It is impossible for anybody who operates within such a system, because the system was built to make those parts (especially the good parts) to work in unison to produce the intended result. One really has to be outside the trap and well acquainted with forms of therapy and philosophy to take a good look at the tools and gimmicks to systematically evaluate their usefulness toward a stated goal of therapy.
    I think Marty said this with so many words from the very beginning when he pointed out his view the only way for good parts of the tech to survive is by integration, which implies it first has to disintegrate form the system it is part of now.
    You get from a system what the system was designed to produce. Raising man to greater heights is advertised but the obvious results and a closer look show that is not what the system was designed to produce. I have real difficulty to imagine anybody living in a modern society more foreign determined and under a spell than any card carrying member of the CO$ (or some fundamentalist Indies).
    So what are the good parts? Maybe the ones LRH took from others and twisted them for his purposes. So what would be there to salvage, which was not salvaged in the first place?
    There may be other parts and I cannot see anything wrong with putting them to use if they help oneself or another. – As long as their use has no part in the system Scientology and is not telling somebody what is wrong with him and selling him a “bridge”.

  240. martyrathbun09

    It is interesting that humans love narrative. It has been demonstrated to stem from the associative-automatic system of the mind. It will dub in all matter of missing parts just to have that precious narrative. Unfortunately it also trumps reason in most. The chances of anyone predicting where I might be in a year are very slim – particularly by relying on narrative.

  241. Vinaire, starting from your last answer. I don’t think the Tech is perfect or is a panacea, a cure all thing. It depends on the subject, too. A cleared cannibal is a good example of this. With Mgmt as it is/was, I don’t think the tech had much of a chance. DM took over and that was it. I don’t even know what is behind DM.

    To me there is a failure in ethics. A maniac took over and the rest were unable to do anything. DM still goes on unhindered.

    As to wrong definitions. Which ones are you referring to? Anything comes to mind?

    Ok, I can look up Scientific method but we are discussing it here. If you see the amount of answers I got back in general on this blog you will be amazed. I am precise on certain questions so I would like to have precise answers. So, what are those objective standards?

  242. Marty which are my irrational rants? Can you be specific for once? It’s a good narrative you are giving us here (just saw the word on wikipedia, nice one) but please try to answer some serious questions, too.

  243. [audio src="" /]

  244. [audio src="" /]

  245. Wow. That’s amazing.

    And thanks. 🙂

  246. Yeah. Narratives are cool.

  247. If I may………….

    A trip down memory lane. Uploaded on Oct 5, 2010

  248. I also think it shows the power of the mind. In some cases I would wager that the narratives heal people even though they might not be “real”.

  249. Hi Gerhard,
    I respectfully disagree.
    I am not a Scientologist. I no longer believe in that construct as a whole. Just to name a couple of things if they alone were done I think it could produce good results in general, not in every case:
    1. TR’s
    2. Auditng the grades, with ethics being optional to the pc.

    General references such as Ethics, Justice and the Dynamics, cherry pick some others. This done in a quiet, safe space by someone who isn’t a greedy blood sucking jerk could produce good results in many cases. Then the person has nothing to do with the subject of auditing unless he later wants more.

  250. So, I have read Scientology Golden Ages and would like to comment on a point you make.

    “All of this continuous, finger-pointing nonsense is one of the many inevitable pitfalls of converting a purported ‘modern science of mental health’ psychotherapy into a religion. It is ordained by a system whose most advanced levels teach that ‘standard technology’ can only be realized by ‘commanding’ acolytes and not by appealing to ‘reason.’ “

    I am not going to argue with you Marty as that is impossible. We cannot even have a direct comm cycle the two of us due to your idea that I am one of those fanatics of Scientology. 

    But I am going to question that the system’s most advanced levels teach that “standard technology” can only be realised by “commanding” acolytes and not appealing to “reason”.

    Where is that written?

    Unless you are referring to “system” as the persons forming the organisation and as its “most advanced levels” its Mgmt.


As to Miscavige trying to handle things and the tech hierarchy all he had to do is to run standard course rooms. I have been in course rooms and I have seen people and how they studied. They would just open up the dictionary, “look up” the word and close the dictionary again. Half a minute word clearing. Well, it ain’t that way. It takes some decent effort to start getting concepts. Then your appetite for true understanding starts opening up. I have had great wins on a basic tape from the EPF “Org board and livingness”. It took me maybe 3 or 4 days to finish it but I was wordclearing it (lol, I was actually concept-clearing it) where others just “flew” threw it graduating in a victorious way. After the EPF I went down to ASHO CF and put an Org Board there, a 7 Division (or as many divs as I could put there) org board. And you know what the Captain, Rich Cohen did and a stupid robotic semi-literate missionaire, Yolanda McGuire did? They told me it was squirrel and I had to file. I told them I have found too many skeletons of CF officers in the basement of ASHO so I didn’t want to have the same fate. Big difference. I was organising and they were “managing” (without even knowing the basics of the org board. They just had org boards and orgs to run. But they didn’t know the basics. they knew the technicalities but they lacked the basics. Of course I, too, lacked several things but the project got 150 volunteers and when John Axel came on a mission afterwards with the authority of a CMO mission he kept the 7 Div org board and increased the number of volunteers to 250 and the project was done. That was the estimation of effort needed. And that was the org board and the basics of it. And that came from wordclearing (sorry I will be calling it concept clearing as many here have an MU on this too). Just honest and heavy concept clearing of words.

    So, we don’t need this as a Why. DM is notorious about finding the right Whys. We have all had our share on this. Anyway…

    So, I am afraid when people study they don’t have full conceptual understanding. That is a major problem. You can’t get down to basics if you can’t associate the data. And I am still not convinced that there is much contradiction in what Hubbard says. Yes, in some cases like in Dianetics he mentioned the Clear. But I have read a non confidential OT lecture (don’t remember the exact one) where it was stated that that Clear was the OT finally. Big difference. Yes Hubbbard, for political reasons didn’t want to look that he erred. It is part of the game Marty. Look at Miscavige now. And he is not Hubbard.

    Then on the OT levels shit happens. Well… that is something to be looked into. And that is the major overt (I do mean that) that we are all committing. Have we lost that upper tech?


I don’t even think that one has to train the “standard way”. Where is that written? I studied the PDC in Lebanon Hall. Was that “Standard”? Nooo… but it produced results.

    I think that Hubbard gave us a new playing field. It’s all here in front of us. We can do what we want and are able to do with it. Maybe he didn’t expect that we would be so adversary to each other and fight each other in factions. Even the church has a use in this game. It gives people a basic training.

    But still let me humbly say that even this phenomena of fighting amongst us stems from misunderstoods and third parties. And it’s not the Scientology terms only I am referring to. I am referring to common language words. We speak different languages though it seems we all speak english. 
And it takes big beings to have a fight and then say “ok, bro! let’s see where did I err?”

  251. Perhaps to be Human is to be narrative? Then again, Is the Human condition narrative in its nature? I’m pondering.

  252. martyrathbun09

    As far as achieving what you repeatedly state you want to achieve, DM blows away the folk you are now counting on to produce it.

  253. martyrathbun09

    You are right that it makes them feel good. Just as certainly it keeps them stupid. If you call that healing, then yes.

  254. Ιt doesn’t matter Marty.

    The Spartans were going to battle and the mother was saying to the son: “Either it or upon it”. That’s laconic. And the complete phrase was “Either you bring IT (the shield) back (meaning victorious) or they bring you UPON IT (meaning dead). Force is part of the game but it’s not the only element to win it.

  255. It takes a big man to own just a little teeny weeny, bit of wild wild life. It is a very, very scary thing for most people, to free fall.

    If the people in the Church really believed in contact assists, (and I do, oh I do get the magic in that) , if they thought you were harmed by a hooker, they should have sent you out to do a contact assist.

  256. Thanks Mark. I missed the EST connection.

    Humor can be tricky 🙂

    Yours wasn’t feeble … I just often have to have things explained 🙂 – dense is my problem 🙂


  257. Theo, I admire your search for truth; specially your courage in admitting that Tech is not perfect. It is just one more step from there to recognizing that some of the LRH tech is actually false. It creates more trouble than worth it. E-meter is an example of that. There is better tech out there.

    The key element of tech that truly works is “seeing things as they are.” This element was called MINDFULNESS by Buddha. You will find this concept in OBNOSIS and AS-ISNESS. This concept is universal, and it is the most useful concept that there is.

    You cannot isolate “ethics” as the point of failure. It is the whole system that is quite unwieldy. It needs to be overhauled and systematized. I am trying to do that on my blog. You don’t need all those millions of words of those tapes and lectures.

    If you want me pick up one word that has wrong definition, I shall pick up the word STATIC of Axiom #1. It is simply a rewording of Aristotle’s UNMOVED MOVER. It is inherently inconsistent besides establishing an absolute. Absolutes exist only as assumptions.

    Here is the objective standard of Scientific Method. It is simply seeing the proof in the pudding, each time there is a pudding.


  258. Thanks Tom.
    That was me at the lowest point of getting out of the cult. Marty audited me and verified my Clear status and handled some of my “bt’s”. For what that is worth I guess. I did enjoy being audited without being regged and I paid him for his time and willingness. This whole experience has been rather surreal for me. Someone had a tag on their email posts once that said something like “Scios creating a world where they are relevant.” that resonates with me.

  259. I mean, free falling between the social props. Most people get way too disorientated.

  260. What do you recommend? Chastising them and telling them they are True believers? Or telling them what to think so they agree with you? Or just start reading all the great works of literature until they are aristocrats?
    You have to be one of the stupidest people on Earth to have stayed in a cult for years and be the top man next to dm and then realize that you had been duped. Now you are the authority?? Go figure. I think you are digging into a dark hole.

  261. martyrathbun09


  262. ” It is superearthly hope in Scientology that a being creates this universe with his agreement.”
    I have no idea what you mean vinnie..
    Could you please put this so that this mere mortal could understand..?

    Here is what I am getting.. I know what earthly pleasures are.. OK..
    Superearthly hope ( NOT so much) and who is agreeing with who..

    and what does Scientology have to do with this?
    signed Confused in Florida

  263. Oracle quoted the Bible:

    …God was pleased with Solomon’s request [for wisdom] and said, “You could have asked for long life or great wealth or victory over your enemies. But instead you asked for wisdom and you shall have you wish. You shall be able to understand the language of the birds and beasts…”

    And then, he said, you won’t be such broke assed bitches.

    Alanzo (:>

  264. LOL! In Scientology, an OT is somebody who is superearthly. Concepts in Scientologyt, such as, we are creating this universe with our agreement also sound superearthly to me. Friend’s post is basically saying that all reality springs from a being (thetan). That is very superearthly to me.

    I was contrasting that with Nietzsche’s Übermensch (superman), who is a plain down-to-earth guy. 🙂

    I am reading THUS SPAKE ZARATHUSTRA. I have started to like this guy.

  265. Thank you Windhorse.. I love the book.. The Four Agreements. Simplistic yet so powerful.

  266. Theo wrote:

    The Spartans were going to battle and the mother was saying to the son: “Either it or upon it”. That’s laconic. And the complete phrase was “Either you bring IT (the shield) back (meaning victorious) or they bring you UPON IT (meaning dead). Force is part of the game but it’s not the only element to win it.

    So an Athenian is spouting the morals of Sparta now?

    Isn’t that some form of Sacrilege?

    I got involved in Scientology partly because of the morals of a great Athenian. He said “Know Thyself”, and I thought – and was certainly led to believe – that auditing was the route to do that.

    What I found – only after experiencing it for myself and getting very thoroughly involved in it – was that it turned out to be not “Knowing Myself” at all, but “Know Scientology”.

    Well, Scientology is not my self.

    So I quit, and stayed true to the morals of that great Athenian, and am conituning on the line to “know Thyself”.

    And here you are here running the Sparta Party Line?

    Tsk Tsk, Theo.

    Somewhere along the line you have apparently lost your way.

    I’m telling The Oracle on you!


  267. I believe in contact assists to AND I get the magic.

    But none is better than a genuine sense of humor … which you have by the barrel.


  268. Mark N Roberts

    I have a sister-in-law who has a great sense of humor. She will laugh 3 times at a joke. Once when you tell it to her, again whey you explain it to her, and again when she gets it.

  269. Tony.. As an observer… I am reading so many that say ” I am NOT a Scientologist BUT..

    I have seen this repeatedly in your posts here and on other blogs over the years..

    You and others continue to send different messages.

  270. Tony DePhillips wrote:

    You have to be one of the stupidest people on Earth to have stayed in a cult for years and be the top man next to dm and then realize that you had been duped. Now you are the authority?? Go figure. I think you are digging into a dark hole.

    You gave them 125 grand, Tony. And many years of your life, too. Right?

    And you’re telling Marty that he is stupid?

    If he’s stupid then what does that make you?

    Stupid people don’t join cults for the most part. This has actually been studied. Real research and everything. Not like LRH research.

    People who join cults have other traits, different from stupidity, that lead them. Like the fact that they are original thinkers, they have intellectual and spiritual courage, they are rebellious and unsatisfied with the society’s stock, milque-toast and materialistic answers. So they look around and actually try alternatives in the search for a more meaningful life for themselves.

    That’s not stupid, is it Tony?

    Then, once they are involved in the cult, they are very intentionally used and manipulated in a coercive environment very similar to a Skinner Box to constantly increase their loyalty and their contribution in the most “selfless” way – all while being told they are fully responsible for their OWN condition – and never allowed to acknowledge the onslaught in the environment that are constantly pushing them to work against their own self interests.

    Cults are set up intentionally, and are actually a quite vicious trap.

    So here’s Marty, a guy who has freed himself FULLY from the trap, and is turning around striking a spear straight into the heart of this billion dollar cult’s ability to apply fair game to people – people like you and everyone else on this blog – while raising a young family, and putting himself on the line like no Ex- Scientologist I have EVER SEEN.

    And I’ve seen a lot of them, Tony.

    A lot more than you.

    And you call him stupid.

    What the fuck does that make you, Tony?


  271. Tony I am watching you in the video.. It appears that you were further along in deconstructing than you are. You have totally disrespected Marty after all he has done for you.

    I am just shocked at your behavior.

  272. sigh.. You were further along in 2010 in decronstructing and evaluating your Scientology experience than you are now.

  273. Marty said to TO: “Interestingly, I have found since that there is a technical reason for elevating one above the rest, insisting that a close personal intimacy exists (when they’ve never met the man), and implanting that every good result (down to every session) was caused by that one man, including the posting of photos everywhere and requiring they be applauded to daily. It is well known, long-published mental technology (which is not coincidentally forbidden knowledge to the scientologist). It’ll take a book.

    This is what I’m working to figure-out because I’m quite sure I have been ‘brainwashed’. I also feel that the brainwasher knew exactly what he was doing (not an accident). It may have simply been a project ron wrote with steps to accomplish the result we see. 1) figure out what are man’s weakest points 2) devise solutions for week points 3) Sell solutions for week points (except the ones that will fix the week points that keep them looking somewhere other then themselves for answers) 4) Make sure the solutions are documented, copyrighted and I am assigned acknowledgement for all successes and any failures are the result of miss-application of the solutions. WooHoo – I’ll be a millionaire 🙂

  274. Yeah, I certainly would call Marty ‘stupid’ by any means (though I don’t know any ex who would call joining CoS the ‘smartest’ thing they ever did!)…

    As for attacking the Billion-Dollar Behemoth.. well, we’ll see if clever or perhaps ‘foolhardy’ are the terms that best apply. (Given the previous alliteration, I’ll go with Ballsy, but YMMV…)

  275. Da fuck? You people are the longest winded folks in the universe! Never have so many words been wasted that say ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Carry on all you big beings & thanks for the Lol’s

  276. I never viewed Marty as having been in a cult, myself. Just because people were there, does not make who they are, or what they were, or why there were there, a neat tidy little package.

    Does it ever occur to anyone that some people were there for the adventure? For the experience? Must all of us devalue every person and every reason and every effort and every moment passing through those halls?

    I don’t care to tear myself or others down in that way. I realize a lot of people are into that for whatever reason I do not understand, a need to discount it all in every way. I see that as very sad.

    Hoping to put people out of ARC with themselves and their past, is a purpose I see a lot in the aftermath of what I have seen, as just another type of adventure. Not an adventure that would warrant the sadism and abuse I see floating about us. Maybe I should have taken it all more seriously. I laugh with myself, harder, reading and posting on this blog than another type of entertainment. Sometimes my ribs hurt.

    Then there are some sad moments. When I see people abusing others, about something that could be turned into pleasant memories, camaraderie, and lots of very funny moments.

    I have never taken Marty as someone who wants to lead people anywhere or prod them . I do get it that some people feel he owns them some kind of debt to be something or say something or do something. Some kind of standard they think they should be seeing or hearing, based on what I don’t know.

    As far as I can see, Marty just points out things, and has been very generous about sharing himself and his thoughts.

    How anyone finds cause to discount that is beyond me. This is truly the missing treasure between all of us, when we insist upon someone or something other than what is being offered to us by our fellow man.

    So what if he spent several years in the Church? I never heard him say he felt duped. He is sorting out his adventure and sharing it with us. That is good enough for me. I am not ARC broken with the life he lived, or him for living it.

    This hatred that has been generated between us for who have been, the lives we have lived, the people in our lives, isn’t something I want to contribute to. Expecting us to apologize for having lived and learned and been is a demand I ignore.

    Lastly, I don’t think any of us have to apologize to anyone else, for the lives we have lived or who we are.

    Once again, I think if you can’t live by the simple ten commandments, the golden rule, no sense in expecting people to live by newer policies.

    If everyone in this game treated others as they would like to be treated themselves, nobody would have gotten hurt.

    You can give a shovel to two different men, one will dig a trench to permit the flow of water, the other will use it as a murder weapon.

    I think Marty put up this blog for noble reasons, and on a good purpose, to permit the flow of ideas and truth.

    This invitation to mock up other types of particles, of a disturbing nature, will hopefully fall to the wind.

    Whatever time Marty put in on staff, wasn’t because he was stupid. It was to make the world a better place for a lot of people. We all had that motive. I don’t care to discount that, in myself or others.

    That said, I know Marty has been a good friend to you Tony. Injustice is a quality relating to unfairness or undeserved outcomes. Anyone that suggests to me, that I now deserve some kind of abuse because I explored Scientology on my own time and my own dime, can go fuck themselves.

  277. Michael,
    Great observations. Thanks

  278. Theo is actually very curious about Marty. I think that is a good thing. The great thing about Theo, is that he shares his ideas, lays his cards on the table. There is a sincerity about him and his inquiries that is very endearing. He really does spill his thoughts on the why’s behind his ideas. He still wants to KNOW. I mean, he isn’t malicious, he is just curious. Theo is a good man. He is loyal. He is not too cool with breaking loyalties. It doesn’t matter if his loyalties are misplaced. It’s the loyalty that matters to him. Even when he has been loyal to my enemies, I have respected him for his loyalty. He is not a wobbly sort. I like that about him. I have always considered him trust worthy. That matters in a man.

  279. Vinaire wrote:

    To fully understand reality one needs to continually look for inconsistencies and resolve them. Ultimately, one would have to resolve the inconsistencies in the context of the universe.

    You do realize that you are emphasizing the Big Consistency Thing, and yet it is only one (or two) of the epistemological criteria of truth, right?

    Take a look over some of those other criteria at the link there and see if you still think Consistency is King.

    I want your Book Report on my desk in the morning.

    Alanzo (:>

  280. Why must we all be stupid? Is it a crime to be curious? Yes. Hubbard said the biggest crime in the universe was to be broke. To be there and communicate. I beg to differ. The biggest crime in the universe is to be curious. Why have we all been beaten (well, not me) up in this matter of Scientology? What was our crime? We were just curious. Seriously, I’m not to apologize for that shit. Not about to insist anyone apologize either. It is not and has not been Scientology that has created this civilization and kept it evolving. It has been curiosity. It has been us, the curious.

  281. Alonzo,
    I have already admitted that I had stupidity in staying involved as long as I did. That’s a given. I think you are a person who has held onto much hate for Scientology and I take your data accordingly. I won’t get into what I think about you.

  282. Tony Robbins says power comes from the ability to anticipate what is coming. Honestly, some things you just can’t anticipate.

  283. Tony, I very much agree. We can add the ARC Triangle and its countless uses to improve interpersonal relations, Reach & WD, the Non-E formula (and first dynamic danger formula) and many other very useful and workable tools. All which can be done successfully without even mentioning Scientology or LRH, though I have no problem at all in crediting Ron for his positive works.

  284. Hi Karen

    Yes… That was one of the results that I was looking for from L 12… “stably exterior with full perception”. Not in the attest cycle at all.

    I have come to the conclusion that that result, although probably a lot of fun, and potentially capable of putting one in a very advantageous position, It would not handle many of one’s concerns.

    As part of my rethinking and re-evaluating what really matters to me, I find that I am quite stably exterior to many things, and capable of decent perception. I think that that is probably true for many people, at their own gradient. If one considers that one is “exterior”, to some extent, from anything that he is not being, one can start to realize how “exterior” he really is. Perhaps he cannot do the party trick of seeing what is behind his body, but he may well be “exterior” to much, or all, of an otherwise troublesome “case”, or various sets of fixations.

    At L12 it seems the goal is to be “un-fixated” regarding beingnesses, entities, and identities. A very valid goal, in my opinion. But it is potentially only as effective as it is capable of assisting the being to achieve the parts of that that he is not exterior to already. It could be a total life changer, or simply an interesting few hours. (or perhaps even a “blood-bath”, if botched).

    And, yes… the money…. How much money is being scammed from people until they succumb and state publicly that it was the “best processing EVER!”… and if they actually believe that, then the “placebo effect” kicks in and 30% will actually feel they have been “cured”, or whatever, when little of any actual value was even done. (except whatever got them to align with the “shore story”.)

    Anyway… Thank you for your response. It is good to get your viewpoint.


  285. Besides, he’s got a certificate in being Greek. That’s the same as getting a pass on the anti Q and A drills.

  286. Thanks. Years ago, I turned my research into poetry because some smart people would read the poems and give me feedback on my ideas.

    Here’s one to consider, Marildi:

    For Scout144Infantry (the asteroid is too long)

    by GrannyDeepSea

    Two armies on a battlefield
    The field above in heaven
    Where Andromeda and Milky Way
    Are destined to collide
    One fine warrior called Ari
    By his questions Earthbound driven
    Leaves the millions of companions
    Firmly stationed by his side
    His star body still in heaven
    Krisna beckoning at his side
    From the war he must not hide.

    Ari felt good in the human form
    His body made for babies
    And for losers of the battle
    On the Kuruksetra field
    Why not bypass all the fighting
    Watching deaths of kindred starlights
    Why not stay here with the babies
    Blessed Krisna would not yield
    Get yourself back to the battle
    Where your fate is firmly sealed
    To the heavenly battlefield.

    Ari took the opportunity
    With Krisna there beside him
    To ask questions he had pondered
    In his alter ego state
    Since it rarely ever happens
    That He takes a human body
    Krisna looked at Ari face to face
    And started to relate
    All the answers to his questions
    Both preparing to debate
    Ari’s future heavenly fate.

    Krisna feeling somewhat trapped
    Inside the body He was fixed in
    Nevertheless took pause to ponder
    The sensations of His form
    Human bodies with their perks
    Provide a temporary respite
    From the oneness He’s so used to
    Separation’s not His norm
    Chatting here with good son Ari
    Feeling comfortably warm
    Human bodies have their charm.

    Ari begged again to know
    The reason why he was required
    To engage his friends in battle
    When he could be living here
    His superior mind could offer
    Precious insights to the babies
    Separated from the battle
    Thus protected from the fear
    And the consequence of warfare
    Krisna whispered in his ear
    You will bring the battle here.

    Krisna knew of all the problems
    That a star outside of body
    Living here upon a planet
    Could quite possibly engage
    Thus aware He stated firmly
    To the warrior soul residing
    In the body made for babies
    There beside Him in the cage
    Understanding the desire
    And His son’s ensuing rage
    At being ordered to the stage.

    Ari then began to question
    Krisna’s former whispered comment
    And the consequence of bringing battle
    To this hallowed place
    Disbelieving his companion
    Was against his better judgment
    Yet he couldn’t see how he
    Could thus ensnare the human race
    How could any join in battle
    In this garden of a place
    Krisna answered in His grace.

    You cannot yet comprehend
    The complications of existence
    Seeking only here the freedom
    You’re not used to as a star
    Life on Earth holds hidden battles
    Long left sleeping since creation
    To awaken those sad spirits
    Is like poking at a scar
    In the box they call Pandora
    Leave them resting as they are
    Ari, get back to your star.

    Twasn’t Ari who then opened up
    The scar left since creation
    There was someone there beside them
    Waking up because they came
    How could two such perfect beings
    Come to wallow here in Hades
    Thus awakening individuals
    I do not care to name
    We were sleeping here quite soundly
    Til the two of you here came
    Now you’ve got yourselves to blame.

    Krisna tingling all over
    In His body made for sensing
    Knew exactly whom they’d wakened
    And the price they’d have to pay
    From the war before creation
    Before Time was ever thought of
    From the Chaos that required Creation
    To keep it at bay
    They’d awakened ancient minions
    Krisna knew He’d have to stay
    Here remaining to this day.

    All the suffering and sadness
    That you witness all around you
    Every conflict ever thought
    To be decided by a war
    Has resulted from the time
    Big Brother Ari came from heaven
    Breaching long forgotten walls
    As if he’d opened up the door
    Of the box known as Pandora
    To this day his soul is sore
    Having instigated war.

    We can stop the current madness
    We do not have to accept it
    It’s not easy, but the things worth doing
    Very rarely are
    We can realize the problem
    Has resulted from a brother
    Who originally came here
    To escape the hell of war
    Let’s awaken to the God within
    And change the way we are
    Once again, we’ll mend the scar.

  287. Hi again Alanzo.
    I find myself drawn to something in your post, again. It is beginning to worry me. You, of all people, reminding me of whole track experiences that have real world implications right now. Golly gee.

    Have you ever wondered why such stupid crap that people get themselves into, turn out to be such common phenomenon? How could so many people be so blind to the cult-like operations of Scn. Many of whom are very bright, hard working, sensible people. A few, yes. But the numbers, the percentages. It really DOES NOT ADD UP. I have met many, many sharp, good hearted people who seem oblivious to the goings on which is right in front of them.

    You and Marty and Brian and Conan and several others have given reasons, or rather have pointed out common human failings in order to try to explain why people get caught up in this kind of thing on such a regular basis, all through history. Take a broad, long term look at it and it DOESN’T MAKE SENSE.

    But when you see a few of the control mechanisms which have been used on the whole track to effect control, especially those mechanisms which employed agreement and the individuals own desires and wants, every detail falls into place. And then when you see some of the early incidents which produced common considerations and traits, it is a perfect line to what is going on right now.

    You said: “Cults are set up intentionally, and are actually a quite vicious trap.” Oh how right you are. Additionally, organizations which have the potential for emotional control of it’s members and clients are targeted by those who have the deeply ingrained purpose of CONTROL. These organizations, good or bad, makes no difference. People such as you and I have been bumping heads with these individuals for a very long time. It continues.

    This is not the first cult like organization I have been involved with, and it is by far not the worst. It is not even the most clever. The details you and others have provided, and the observations I have made were instrumental in seeing the connections.

    Al Brown’s story was entirely predictable and in line, almost identical to what has happened countless times before. I thank him for having the courage to post it. Very bad things have happened to me when I exposed data such as this in the distant past, and I have done very bad things to people who have done the same. You and several others don’t agree with my whole track overview, but the game continues, nonetheless. You and Marty and others are ‘deconstructing’ the mental fixations created by Scientology. I am simply doing it on a broader scale.

    Thanks to you and others for helping me fill in the gaps.
    ARCL, Mark

  288. ” we are creating this universe with our agreement ”
    I could pretend to know what you are talking about.. but alas I can’t ..I’m just not that deep I guess. I find that many here take a very simplistic view and make it so complicated.

    You still didn’t define what superearthly means.. ( No word clear..)
    and what have I agreed to? I don’t think words have to be that confusing. That is the art of communicating.

  289. Fuck me for not being part of the greatest number.

  290. Hi Vinaire

    I know that, on the Grades, a person is asked if they want to run a reading process before it is taken up, or not. But the auditor has already denied the PC access to any process that “didn’t read”. Why not let the PC select the processes he is interested in, from the whole list? Oh, that’s right, “the e-meter and the auditor are more aware of the PC’s case than the PC himself”. If it is “case”, and it is impinging, I would suggest that the PC likely is aware of it to some degree.

    The introduction of e-meters into sessions has likely introduced more arbitraries than any other single element, other than a “standard Bridge”.

    At least listen to the PC. Ignore him at your peril.


  291. Friend

    Yes, the way I look at that is that “all experience of time is in present time.”

    I especially like this line that you wrote…

    “You are as much OT as much present time you can have ..”


  292. I don’t think this is actually off topic because it has to do with what a standard of Scientology might look like. So many people are currently doing things they don’t want to do and they don’t know why. This not only explains why, but the cure is the same as in Dianetics. Just knowing it enables the cure. If anyone knows Kirsty Ally’s contact info, send her this link. She will never be fat again. It is set to read for free, just click preview.

    I am very interested in the reactive mind because I wrote this book before I read Dianetics.

    I used to weigh over 350 lbs. I was a yo-yo dieter. It’s almost always the case that when a yo-yo dieter loses the weight, they gain it all back, plus a little more. That was true for me, and I lost and gained over 100 lbs 3 times.

    I saw a talk show with several very fat women who all said the same thing – diets don’t work, because they always gained it all back plus more. Think about that for a second. Regaining over 100 lbs. Why didn’t any of us stop in the middle?

    I might be able to believe that my life was ‘empty’ and I was trying to ‘fill it with food’, but what about Oprah Winfrey and Kirsty Ally and Jessica Simpson and Janet Jackson? They don’t have empty lives, and they have the ability to check into a high priced spa, and yet, they always gain it all back, plus more.

    I knew this was something else. This is not a lack of will power, because I can fast for a month – my slender friends can’t fast for a day. My will power is very powerful. So it was not my lack of will power keeping me fat.

    One day when I was in the midst of regaining 100 lbs., yet again, I was looking at a donut. I actually felt like I was going to die if I didn’t eat that donut. Seriously! And that was the key that led to the truth. See, I don’t like the way I feel after I eat a donut. They taste alright, but they would leave me feeling heavy and tired. I preferred m&ms – by the pound per day – or a ½ gallon of ice cream at one sitting.

    I couldn’t go to my doctor and explain that I was going to die if I didn’t eat a donut, because I weighed over 200 lbs. So I began to meditate on this, and hit upon the question ‘is there anything that would die by not eating that donut?’ Viola! There are many animals that must gain weight every year or die. Bears and whales are seasonal weight gainers. That realization led to this question: How does a bear know that she has gained enough weight to make it through the winter? Answer: She refills all existing fat cells, then makes one new one. Then her body is free to stop gaining and she goes into hibernation mode.

    Trouble with this is, I’m not a bear. So, there must be something going on with my brain that confused me with a bear.

    So I hypothesized that stress was causing some part of my brain to make me regain every pound and make one new one. Trouble is, there are lots of stressed out people who are not fat. But wait – could their brains be making them do things they don’t want to do?

    So I looked around and noticed that other people were doing compulsive things. So, imagine that when we get stressed out, our brain does a ‘system check’ to see ‘what kind of animal we are’ and then causes us to ‘do things we don’t really want to do’ in order to SURVIVE THE STRESS OF WINTER OR OTHER STRESS.

    Sure enough, there are gatherers (aka hoarders) who keep buying things they don’t need. I call them squirrels.

    There are vacationers that are always planning their next vacation. I call them birds because they are migrating.

    There are runners often running to the point of injury. I call them herders because they run in packs.

    Then there are the scariest ones – the predators – the ‘big cats’. They must attack and kill to survive. These are the stressed out people hitting their spouses or children – and if they don’t have spouses or children, they will attack random strangers.

    As I continued to meditate and observe, I noticed that the fat kid in walmart is screaming for ice cream while the skinny kid in walmart is screaming for a toy and the poor kid in walmart is torturing his little sister.

    The theory seemed valid and these stress related compulsions appear to begin early in life.

    Then I learned something that proved my case. There is a part of our brain called the R Complex. It is the ‘reptilian brain’. It is called the reptilian brain, because it is the only brain the reptiles have. The human brain has evolved to be much more complex, but deep inside of our brain is the R Complex. It is in charge of survival – fight, flight or freeze.

    So, when we get stressed out, the R Complex takes over and makes us do things we wouldn’t rationally do – with the idea that it is enabling us to survive.

    This realization is all it took – now my weight is in my control, not in the control of my over-stressed R Complex. I weigh 152. Just knowing the truth enables me to not regain all the weight even when I do get stressed out. Even with my R Complex being in control of powerful brain chemicals to prompt me to eat, I’m able to say no way.

    I’m guessing the people at this particular website can see why I was so impressed by L Ron Hubbard’s book, right?

    The strangest part of all this is where I learned about the R Complex. It was at a sales training seminar that my work sent me to. It appears that the 1% know about the R Complex. They were training us to know that when a person picks up the phone, their R Complex is on ‘high alert’. In order for us to make a sale, we have to bring that person into another section of their brain. The way to do this is to make them remember something. Memories are supposedly not part of the R Complex. Once we get them to remember something, we are talking to the person, not their R Complex. There are a few more steps that lead to getting the credit card. But I felt quite sure that the R Complex was the culprit in charge of stress related compulsive behaviors including yo-yo dieting.

    And now, I’m wondering if the R Complex is the seat of the reactive mind and the engrams that Dianetics is concerned with.

    Because the R Complex is the first part of our brains that grow, I have a new theory I’m working on. See, I think that our personal thetan is with us from zygote until death. The reason Dianetics tech finds very early prenatal engrams is because our personal thetan begins acquiring knowledge at zygote. It stores those early thoughts in the only place available – the R Complex. As the brain continues to grow, it eventually gets its memory section and then our thetan can store memories there. But in the cases L Ron wrote about, where we are ‘unconscious’, those might be the times that our R Complex takes control and therefore, things get stored there, even though we have a memory section.

    I look forward to any and all opinions.


  293. Hmmm…having a vegetarian, non – gmo, organic brunch with His Holiness the Dalai Lama, the Pope, Lamia Abbas Amara, and Prince William & Princess Kate, perhaps?? 🙂

  294. Just because a person likes auditing doesn’t mean they are a Scientologist. I like things in the bible too. Does that make me a Christian?
    Hopefully that isn’t hard for you to understand.

  295. Gerhard Waterkamp

    Hi Tony,
    let us start with TR’s.
    OT TR0 can be found in Alister Crowleys book Magick: Liber Aba in the first book about Mysticism. He described its background in Yoga and the expected results pretty vividly. It can be safely assumed LRH being very familiar with Aleister Crowleys work knew these texts extremely well. Yet he wraps it and packages as a training drill for communication and never mentions the roots in Yoga teachings and the results that can be routinely expected. Even his instructions to the students for OT TR0 are almost taken verbatim from Crowley.
    Now compare this to the many stories of people coming into Scientology and being blown out on the OT TR0 part of the communication course and hooked to Scientology because of their wins on OT TR0.
    While Aleister Crowley was honest and gave his sources and was sincere in trying to relay the information accurately this being an exercise to ‘restrain the mind to a single act, state or thought’, LRH is hiding the sources and hiding the effects that can be expected, as to exploit them for his purposes. (That is at least a rational explanation in the context of his personality for why he did this)
    So, do you really know what you do when you deliver TRs designed by LRH?
    The point is not that TR’s could not be perceived beneficial by an individual (or turn out to objectively be), the point is that without having done the research and a full understanding of the context one does not even know what one is doing and kept in the dark and this keeping the people you deliver TRs to in the dark. There we have the first step to be able to manipulate another person: Hiding information, misrepresenting information, twisting information and making others so into pieces of a game they do not even know they are part of. Now you can leverage the differential in knowledge to gain control over the person.

    Helping others requires openness, honesty and decency on the part of the teacher or therapist, (all of them not LRH’s strong suite) – and being informed as to not become unknowingly an instrument of manipulation. Well LRH was informed about a number of things, but he did not disclose his information but used it for his purposes and manipulation of others.

    Scientology is rigged from top to bottom and unless you are aware of the riggings you do not even know what you do when you deliver TRs designed by LRH or audit the Grades designed by him. It takes people years just to come clear from this trap not to mention fully understand it.

    So if somebody wants to salvage the good parts from the bad in Scientology, he’d be better hellish competent in all related matters and still he will need to put everything to an objective test, before he can claim: There is something good. And in the end the good parts may not be Scientology but what LRH picked from others and just laid false claim to for Scientology.
    So is it impossible to find good parts in Scientology? No, not at all, but it is not as simple as: “Oh people liked the Grades and the TRs, let us take that.” There is more to it and without a whole lot of work and study that takes one beyond Scientology so one can come to understand Scientology with all the context, one does not really know what one is doing.

  296. Yes, the one who was spooking him was probably himself .

  297. Greece is one country by now, Alanzo. There is no Athenians or Spartans divided anymore.

  298. Haha, after reading the full comment of your’s I see you are an admirer of the Athenians. Well, tell Oracle that all that civilization is gone and all that it remains is that great philosophy and those great lessons. It’s the lessons we have to cherish. I know many of us got beaten down by non -optimum things or even people in Scientology. Look around now. They are gone. And all that remains is a man in the street baffled by the confusions of life. The out-of-the-box Scientology that we are practicing can be a solution. I am not willing to just waste all that.

  299. At least, Marty is still standing with us, as a friend. That is a hell of a lot more than I can say about 99% of the Scientologists or X Scientologists or former Scientologists or anti Scientologists.

    He is still standing here as a FRIEND. That took a lot, considering the fair gaming he has taken and is still taking. Most people that got involved in Scientology didn’t know how to be a friend when they came in, and still didn’t know how to be friend when they went out. The most UNFRIENDLY MEANEST SADISTIC UNFORGIVING people I have ever met. Look at the shit that comes out of their mouths!!!

    At least Marty has continued to BE A FRIEND. That is a bigger deal than Scientology to me. You people that place the Scientology or your experience in Scientology above friendship and humanity, have something in common. You have a license to ABUSE.

    At least Marty has been a friend to people. That some people can discount that, as not even important enough to recognize explains to me why the whole subject of Scientology never took off. How can you form a group where nobody knows how to be anybodies friend? People in this activity can flip on a dime, and I have seen them do it.

    Not Marty, you have to pull the rug out from under his feet before he sets up a border. And I have seen him sweep shit under the rug to keep it all everyone’s lines, only to have those he covered for, continue to fair game him.

    Scientology might not be here 50 years from now. Scientology may not be an issue in your next life. But you will ALWAYS need a friend. You fuck up your friends now. You fuck up your future. We see people turning against their own family in Scientology. Like they ain’t going to need no family 100 years from now.

    Where is the vision?

    The real problem with Scientology is the people in it that were not capable of being real friends.

  300. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    Irrational rant:
    I think Hubbard’s flaw was that he couldn’t conceive of the magnitude of idiocy and arrogance that his followers might have. I am talking about the church management as a whole and as individuals. That was unwise of him, yes.

    You’re calling nearly everybody an idiot and that’s the reason it doesn’t work. Are you also an arrogant idiot ? Or are you above it ?

    Man has developprd many very complex technologies and most people have no problem to apply them.

    Why do most people have problems to apply Scientology tech correctly or do not achieve the expected results ?

    In Milestone 2 it was said taht most clears are Stuck and most OT are living a miserable life ! Why?

    it always goes back to the tech was missaplyed. this was the favorite music that Lrh was playing. The world is full of idiots that can’t understand a simple thing !

  301. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    “To me there is a failure in ethics. A maniac took over and the rest were unable to do anything. DM still goes on unhindered.”

    Scientologists are unable ? But they have the tech, Why are they unable. Dm made them all unable ?

    Doesn’t make any sense what you are writing. You’re are going circular.

  302. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    This makes lot of sense.
    In “Thinking, Fast and Slow” by Daniel Kahneman this is called system 1 and it is scientifically established and proved that is the way that a certain part of the mind is working. Exactly as you state it Marty.

  303. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    In Daniel Kahneman’s book you’ll get some of the answers (and it is science).

  304. This was one of the kindest communications I have had the honour to enjoy here. Thank you for sharing it with us 🙂

  305. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    dear Theo,

    I like to read your posts and like you as a person too. Your posts remind me of my past and the way I was thinking. Exactly as you do now and I’m happy I moved on and found new perspectives. Beneath some quotes from your last post. What I can understand is that most Scientologists do not understand or are not big beings. Are you a big being. Could you give me a honest answer on this question ?

    Here you’r quotes about the idiots doing it wrong:

    – They would just open up the dictionary, “look up” the word and close the dictionary again. Half a minute word clearing. Well, it ain’t that way.
    – where others just “flew” threw it graduating in a victorious way.
    – and you know what the Captain, Rich Cohen did and a stupid robotic semi-literate missionaire, Yolanda McGuire did? They told me it was squirrel and I had to file
    – But they didn’t know the basics
    – So, I am afraid when people study they don’t have full conceptual understanding. That is a major problem. You can’t get down to basics if you can’t associate the data.
    – Maybe he didn’t expect that we would be so adversary to each other and fight each other in factions.
    – But still let me humbly say that even this phenomena of fighting amongst us stems from misunderstoods and third parties
And it takes big beings to have a fight and then say “ok, bro! let’s see where did I err?”

  306. Martin Padfield

    That’s really interesting – hadn’t seen that before. Dianetics – the book – was really just a promise of what could potentially be possible, IN THEORY. Not to say people, including myself, didn’t get some benefit from it in practice. But the bulk of the book outlines a theoretical state – Clear – that is an absolute; a wondrous Utopian state of existence that he theorised all beings yearned for. In a marketing series issue from the 70s (can’t put my hands on it here) LRH said that DMSMH was written not as an Org come-on leaflet but to begin the clearing of a planet – hence it should be pushed above all other books. But thinking back to my own “wins” when reading this book they were because the hope or promise of a better state simply paralleled my own hopes, so it all “made sense”.

  307. Heh! What a fun post, complete with what appears to be indications of some subterranean currents for later speculation, along with much to agree upon, points to ponder, and a couple of items for possible engagement.

    The premise that there is no such thing as Standard Tech is valid. This is borne out by L Ron Hubbard’s own example which kinda highlights that the current griping about Miscavige demonstrates a myopic mindset. David
    Miscavige’s compilations follow on in L Ron Hubbard’s tradition, but the suggested rationale behind them is flawed in that it ignores a couple of major factors. First, the presentation of the patched-up tech as compilations has more to do with the fact that, unlike L Ron Hubbard, David
    Miscavige can’t just make things up as he goes along; he is restricted by KSW to picking over the extant material, shuffling it about a bit
    and making whatever tweaks and twerks he can get away with. The notion that David Miscavige was trying to be helpful by presenting the
    material in a form suitable for rote learning ignores the primary motivation: money. Once a suitable number of people had paid enough to be told they were Clear but still wanted more, L Ron Hubbard was able to pop out a Clearing Course, a series of OT levels, then the Ls, then arbitrarily reorder the OT sequence, and so on whenever he needed more product to sell. Poor ole Sea Org Captain David Miscavige can only really get away with repackaging everything over and over again, issuing new compilations only but years apart. It has to be said, he has been quite successful in twiddling and tweaking what ever bits and pieces generate bulk cash. Those six-monthly sec checks must have been a gold mine. Sure, he has cleaned up big time, especially when the compilation is done in tandem with the “updated” emeter ruse, the latest manifestation notwithstanding. But, the punters are still lured in via ruin finding, made to believe engrams and the vital importance of “clearing” their “bank” before the engrams are switched for Body Thetans. So far as Scientology itself is concerned, David Miscavige’s only creative contribution has been the development of the real estate scam. A very, very succesful caper, fortunately not sustainable over the long term, yet still utterly reliant on the mental conditioning cooked up by L Ron Hubbard.

    My guess is that the “rote learning” rationale is more of a device to leverage a crack at the “tech masters”. Somewhat more subtle than the
    comparision between the “hierarchy of perfection” and ECT Therapists, and the blunt “nut cases” ad hom. Something’s up with that feisty stuff; lulzy to observe, but I think I’ll back away at this stage.

    One thing . . .

    . . . Then how could L. Ron Hubbard’s Class XII technical hierarchy from his ‘Mecca of Technical Perfection’ effectively kidnap
    a non compos mentis woman out of the hospital, imprison her for seventeen days, and ultimately kill her? . . .


    The murder by depraved indifference of Lisa Mcherson was the result of a tragic confluence of the life-syle, processing, involvement particular
    individuals, and milieu control aspects of Scientology. By the time of her car accident and admission into a psych ward, Lisa’s psychological trajectory had already crossed the event horizon which led inevitably to her receiving sustained, if not permanent injury and/or death. For all their ability to obnose, no Scientolgist close to her had picked up on her cries for help as her rationality slipped agonisingly away. In fact, the way she was treated by fellow Scientologists in the lead up to the car accident probably exacerbated her journey, while what evidence we do have of the last stage amounts to torture. But, it could not have been any other way without the intercedence of some intermediary free from the influence of Scientology tech.

    This conclusion can be reached by a consideration of the debilitating effects long-term exposure to applied Scientology produces. For someone
    not fortunate enough to have trained uninfluenced by the scientology technical hierarchy, there is no other option other than to take the
    teachings literally. Right from the entry level, Scientologists spend interminable amounts of time going through the material word-by-word,
    which is the actual meaning of literal. And, if the early stuf sticks and the person has a real penchant for the tech minutiae, the more times they go through the material the more certain of it they become and the more literally it is taken. The idea that the space opera constructs, for example, are not literal cannot be sustained by someone working towards tech excellence because the very Axioms upon which the entire subject is predicated would vanish in a puff of logic. The life-style aspect of Scientology is not that much different from most other groups, except when there is an in-house Hill 10 Major Flap clusterfuck in progress. Its then that the effects of Scientology manifest. Behaviour becomes driven by heavy-duty conditioning which prevents thoughts and actions from outside the paradigm entering consciousness. Concepts such always apply standard tech, survival is imperative, never fear to hurt another in a good cause, the greatest good, this is only one life-time compared to eternity, you pulled it in, wogs know nothing, eeevil whole track psychs, and making it go right, automatically, as designed, kick in. They are accompanied with an almost pavlovian-response instilled through endless drills, religious fervour, inter-personal comaraderie, disciplined obedience to superiors,
    and over arching loyalty to the group. Contributing significantly to Lisa’s dilemma was the existence of the particularly pernicious Introspection
    Rundown. It was introduced into Scientology with much fanfare and hailed as “a technical breakthrough which possibly ranks with the major
    discoveries of the twentieth century”. Not only that, the Introspection Rundown, Scientologist were told, removed THE “LAST REASON TO HAVE
    PSYCHIATRY AROUND” – (caps in original).

    It was while operating in that prison of belief that Scientologists “rescued” Lisa with the intention to subject her to the standard application of the Rundown. Any cognitive dissonance or HE&R qualms were dispelled with notions that those involved were full of good intentions and it was in Lisa’s own best interests. By the time Lisa was imprisoned, the wider implications of the situation were coming home to roost resulting in what appears to have been a circus of frantic arse-covering driven by fear of the PR fallout for Scientology, the impending and, no doubt, drawn out Ethics consequences and/or reputational problems and/or financial implications for those who had been directly involved. In short, Lisa McPherson’s murder was the result of the perfect, albeit tragic, Scientology storm.

  308. martyrathbun09

    Something like that.

  309. Marty, you said a couple times in the comments of this post something along the lines of “associative-automatic system of the mind”. It got me thinking, and I realised that thus far I’ve been dodging this particular aspect of myself by claiming that “I never really had any training or posts to speak of anyway, so it doesn’t really apply to me”. But I grew up in the sea org and spent a large part of my life surrounded by scientologists. How would I go about spotting such an associative-automatic system of the mind without going on an internal thought/behaviour witchhunt akin to watching out for the dreaded reactive mind? Is it real (this associative-automatic system) or another wild goose chase?

  310. The basic assumption of Hubbard is that the reactive mind is greater than the analytical mind in an average person. Therefore, his views about his own case cannot be trusted, and his case must be evaluated by a trained case supervisor..

    This is a terrible assumption of the worst kind.


  311. I’m just saying that it is possible. You can treat some of the stuff in Scientology like it is dynamite or not. People that have been burned are usually very scared of matches.

  312. Baby, you may be having a hard time understanding because you are not a scientologist or ex-scientologist.

    In plain terms,

    “Earthly” would be seeing things as they are without the distortions vaused by assumptions, expectations, speculations, etc.

    “Superearthly” would be believing in things as viewed through the filter of assumptions, expectations, speculations, etc.

  313. Tony wrote:

    I have already admitted that I had stupidity in staying involved as long as I did. That’s a given.

    Actually, it wasn’t stupidity that kept you in for as long as you were, but your own intelligence. But hey, such a careful researcher as yourself should know that by now.

    I think you are a person who has held onto much hate for Scientology and I take your data accordingly. I won’t get into what I think about you.

    Unlike you, I don’t pretend to know you. I do see by what you write, however, that you have a long way to go before you are ever going to figure out what happened to you in Scientology.

    Marty has not only figured it out, but he is seeing to it that others know what he does, too. And he is also suing the Church in exactly the right area – they’re ability to apply Fair Game. His is an extremely responsible and intelligent strategy after his experiences in Scientology and it is colossally idiotic of you that you do not see that.

    That’s what made me so angry about your insult to him. It was just so diametrically opposite to what is actually happening that I reacted very strongly to it.

    I apologize for getting so angry with you.

    I should not have done that. I should have at least slept on it before I clicked “submit”.

    However, I do think that you owe Marty an apology.

    And I also think you need to keep reading about cults – on your way to becoming an “aristocrat” – so that you can better understand why what happened to you happened.

    Or don’t.

    Up to you.


  314. martyrathbun09

    You can learn about it. A good primer: Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman.

  315. Hi Mark –

    I am very confident that you are going to come out okay from all this.

    One thing that might help you get along a little faster are some ideas found in this excerpt of a book called “Why People Believe Weird Things”:

    It answers the question “Why Smart People Believe Weird Things”.

    And don’t be put off by the author’s scienc-y background. I’ve read his books and he is extremely tolerant, respectful, and humble about spiritual ideas and the people who hold them. He has just thought about and researched the nature of belief for a long time, and has some very workable things to say about it – no matter what your beliefs are.

    Good luck to you, Mark. You are a good guy and I know you will continue to do well.


  316. Yes, but Sparta had a value system that was not very humane.

    Why would you adopt it?

    Have you gone into “Inhibit” on the CDEI scale?


  317. Thanks, I’ve got the book and will give it another go. I’m also looking forward to your new books and will get them as they are published.

  318. martyrathbun09

    I find an interesting trend, psychology following quantum mechanics – by its own route – coming back to the Tao by appreciating, or at least grappling with, the principle of uncertainty.

  319. Plus Roger, some LRH tech is (was) already wrong the way it was written so I don’t know how you can misapply something that is already wrong to begin with! 🙂

  320. OK.. So I guess ” We are creating this universe with our agreement ” is Scientology too.. You don’t have to answer this Vinnie..I don’t want to clog up Marty’s blog.. Thank you.

  321. Alanzo, looks like my use of the word “inconsistency” is causing a homonymic confusion. I am not a logician, so I am using the word “inconsistency” to mean anything that does not make sense.

    I am using the term “inconsistency” in a very general sense. It would include all different outpoints, illogics, and the categories that you are pointing out. It is anything that fixates or disperses a person’s attention.

    I have tried to explain it here.

    Inconsistency in KHTK

  322. Hi Crepuscule,
    Thank you for this post.
    I would like to comment on the Lisa McPherson
    cycle. It was and always will be a terrible tragedy
    that never should have happened.
    I am an interned auditor with quite a bit of experience
    in the chair. When I heard that Cl XII’s let her on the
    base and not do anything to get her off the base into proper medical
    care, I was appalled. Instead they tried to audit her??? A very
    very basic in auditing is to ensure the PC is sessionable….Lisa was
    NOT sessionable! I thought this was insane, how could these highly
    trained veterans have done this? How could so much blatant out tech come from the mecca of technical perfection? Including (as you mentioned) how
    she was treated by “fellow” Scientologists prior to her melt down.
    As time went on I realized that Miscavige was behind this and that the
    Cl XII’s involved had no guts and fortitude to hold their lofty tech
    positions and do the right thing. They obviously set aside their willingness
    to help in favor of the whims of Miscavige. I feel they are as culpable in this
    cycle as Miscavige himself.
    Miscavige was obviously trying to hide the fact Lisa had recently been audited on some levels at flag that quite frankly she had no business being audited on.
    One more flag tech failure that could have been prevented if the CL XII,s would had some balls to say the girl is overwhelmed and does not need to be
    receiving the type of auditing she was receiving. I would guess she was no
    where near being set up to do an Introspection RD, any L’s or in fact a Clear
    Your last paragraph hits the nail on the head.
    I can tell you, as a veteran interned auditor, this cycle sickened me to a point
    of disdain for all involved who allowed this to happen with no regard for their
    fellow man, no willingness to observe what was in front of them and no desire to really HELP her. What occurred at flag with Lisa was not even close to the tech I was familiar with. From start to finish it was as gross, malicious use
    of out tech I have ever seen. Sadly in the legal battles that ensued Miscavige
    managed to wiggle out of the blood that was so surely on his hands.

  323. Thank you for your book report.

    Carry on!

    Alanzo (:>

  324. Theo wrote:

    I know many of us got beaten down by non -optimum things or even people in Scientology. Look around now. They are gone. And all that remains is a man in the street baffled by the confusions of life. The out-of-the-box Scientology that we are practicing can be a solution. I am not willing to just waste all that.

    I understand completely.

    There really is nothing wrong with that at all.

    I have talked to a lot of indies like yourself over the years and I see that their main point is that they do not want to invalidate their own wins. It’s like going into treason against yourself and destroying your most precious possessions, just because you were in a cult.

    All I can say is that leaving Scientology completely behind, and understanding its exact illegitimacy, does not invalidate the wins you got out of it.

    In fact, coming to understand exactly what made Scientology a cult is an extremely spiritual exercise with lots of wins of its own. You come to see the difference between real spiritual endeavors and fake ones, like in Scientology. And you come to see what, exactly, was real in Scientology and what was not.

    But my path is not everyone’s path.

    I like my shit undistilled, and all the way.

    You’re also a good guy, Theo. And I hope you get as much out of your path as I have gotten out of mine.

    And stay away from the Spartans. As a civilization, they could not hold a candle to the Athenians.


  325. Mark,

    Thanks. The point I keep bringing up is that “going back” into the so called wholetrack to see how entrapment happened is in itself part of the entrapment that Hubbard pulled on everybody.

    If you pay attention to long term Ex-So members who ended up imprisoned in the RPF (Chinese type of mind control reeducation camps) like Chuck Beaty, Bruce Hines, Mike Rinder or even Karen, you would see the absurdity of attempting to have an “insight” about been trapped in the long gone past while holding all gun-ho your current prison bars.

    The ” it is all in the past” as well as the “it is all bad and dangerous out there” are both cousins to the same mental trap Hubbard and many others before him set up to control people.

    When you are confronted with a charging bear, to try to “erase” the incident by going earlier similar is approaching delusion.

    Sorry that I’m so direct and that I do not display too much patience, but I detests religious cults and charlatans.

  326. For example, Oracle, I could not anticipate how good Tony Robbins would be in “Shallow Hal” (one heck of an enjoyable movie)

  327. Gerhard,

    Awesome post. Thanks

  328. Tony you are right. But until you grow up spiritually to the point that you make it your personal business to know, to understand by your own efforts the field of consciousness, you will be stuck within the very limited and often false understanding you got from Scientology.
    It is not about Marty or Hubbard it is about what YOU know or don’t.

  329. Yes, Crepuscule, 1000x yes!

    Are you on The Underground Bunker? If so, I think you may have read my posts saying exactly this.

    Either way, we are absolutely sympatico on this issue. Yes, Miscavige was in it up to his elbows, but it was the inevitable outcome of Hubbard’ ‘tech’ applied ‘correctly’.

    Fact: Lisa McPherson was tortured to death and the only people who could have helped her directly didn’t speak English (by design-) and were trained (as would be any Scilon in their place) to disregard screams, pleas for help, crying, etc… HE&R, etc, time 100!

    Far from his ‘helping the able’ pseudo Ayn Rand crap, Hubbard here reversed himself, claiming to have replaced the last reason for Psychiatry to exist! Now Scientology could do it all!

    What a pity. Shame on Miscavige; Shame especially in Hubbard; But shame in every Scientologist as well.

    And if you are still making apologies for Hubbard, you either are willfully ignorant, damaged by the cult, or mentally deficient from the get-go.

    Listen, I know I am only ‘raw meat’, a ‘wog’ who might as well have never been born, and you—you are all so at cause over MEST that– well, you are incapable of even surfing the net lest you stub your little scilon toes (great how these super powers make you weaker and weaker, until– Like Hubbard and Miscavige, you can’t even recognize that EVERY SINGLE PERSON AROUND YOU IS AN SP! Amazing powers of perception kids!

    Get it together kids; I’m sure you are good people at heart.

    A quite from Jesus, who probably existed, but I am no Christian. Still, this is inarguable:

    There are none so blind as those who will not see.
    And another:
    “Ignorance of the law is no excuse.”

    What kind of religion teaches you to lie to everyone (and especially yourself) FROM THE VERY FIRST LESSON?

  330. A person will keep his stable datum until he comes across a better stable datum.

    I think that people move from stable data to stable data. Theo will move when he experiences a better stable data.

  331. The wins in Scientology came from one’s own looking. That is the most fundamental reality.

    Scientology simply directed a person’s attention. Wins came from those times when Scientology happened to direct one’s attention correctly.

  332. “Yes, the one who was spooking him was probably himself “

    Very insightful observation!

  333. Vinaire

    Interesting observation.


  334. Gerhard Waterkamp

    Hi Tony,
    There is this story of the investor who had put down a couple of millions with Bernie Madoff and took some heavy losses. A few months later he meets Reed Slatkin and explains to him that he would need to see the books, inspect the investments and study up on it, before he can invest with him.
    Reed Slatkins response was: “People that have been burned are usually very scared of matches.”
    Life invites you to learn from your experience, grow and get better. It should not deter anybody that some people try to stop them by throwing silly phrases at them.

  335. Roger From Switzerland Thought


    A very funny experience I made was trying to clear that expression with the Latin references about those 2 words. It seems that the correct wording should be “Homo Novus” and that means something quite different than LRH postulated;

    “Homo novus (or: novus homo, Latin for “new man”; plural homines novi) was the term in ancient Rome for a man who was the first in his family to serve in the Roman Senate or, more specifically, to be elected as consul.”
    In German Wikipedia it is said that it was a derogatory term used for plebeians, who raised in Politics and were looked upon as parvenus.

    If you google homo novis, there are only results in relation to Dianectics and google keeps asking homo novus ? or just shows the results for homo novus.

  336. Potpie: It could happen not because the XIIs were so bad BUT because her employer was a BIG BIG BIG BIG (how ever many times you want to write it) contributor to the FSO and the FREEWINDS. SHE was responsible for pulling LISA out of the hospital – signing her out — the Class XIIs were at the mercy of their captain who allowed this to happen.

    BECAUSE the employer gave carte blanche to the Ship Crew to come into her LARGE SUCCESSFUL (Ha) company and get money endlessly every Thursday at 2. She moved her large company from Dallas (I think) to Clearwater and became one of the power elites. Along with Feshbacks, Dugans, Swanns.

    It’s the MONEY HONEY — it’s CORPORATE GREED at its finest. Over the dead bodies of their employees or employees who end up working 3 or 4 jobs to pay for food. BUT in the la-la world of Scientology — employees who go over their head in debt. Who lose their minds because the cognitive dissonance is so great.

    Just step back a moment. The “big” scientology/Wise companies are perfect microcosms of what we see all over — people who work like slaves to line the pockets of the few.

    With this twist — those companies (in scientology) also insist IF you are going to STAY in their slave camp — you WILL give money till you crack to the big church.

    SO THAT — these corporate blood suckers can sit at the elite table with the Captain of the Ship or FSO and even get to shake and meet the head honcho.


    BTW — I can’t remember her name — it’s blocked from my mind at the moment but it wasn’t a sweet last name or an last name without a meaning but something like … Hachet. Dracula.

    In other words a name where you hoped she didn’t dramatize it — but alas she did. One of the few things LRH said about names … people often dramatized them.

  337. I remembered:

    Apt last name … what do you have when a overpowering well armed force takes over a village …


  338. When I was a kid, a NOVIS was someone new at something and HOMO was a derogatory term for a homosexual.

  339. Mark N Roberts

    Hi Conan.
    You said: “Sorry that I’m so direct and that I do not display too much patience, but I detests religious cults and charlatans.”

    Direct is the only way to go. Life wouldn’t be worth much of a crap if all conversation was sitting around the couch having friendly, polite, carefully worded conversations with your buddies whom you never wish to offend.

    So, say what’s on your mind, always. I wouldn’t learn a thing from you if you agreed with everything I said. I believe that anyone who agrees with EVERY SINGLE THING that any one other person says is either a mindless fool of an unconscious voice recorder.

    To you, I have a wild imagination which I have come to foolishly believe is actually true. To me, I am recovering experience and making it useful to me again. Makes for interesting conversations.

    You said: “When you are confronted with a charging bear, to try to “erase” the incident by going earlier similar is approaching delusion.”

    I say, if you have been ripped up by charging bears and wolves or soldiers 23 times in the last few thousand years, and a bear is now charging at you, it is best not to become paralyzed in terror, your arms and legs going limp, your gut wrenching in fear. It would be best to quickly pick up that rifle and shoot accurately.

    I find stories such as that much more entertaining than someone saying: “You’re just friggin’ stupid, you should just shut the hell up”.

    But I can have that too, don’t bother me a bit.
    By the way, what do you do for a living? I’m a retired Electrical Engineer.

  340. Mark N Roberts

    Oh, Conan. PS, have you seen that show on Netflix, “Penn and Teller, Bullshit”? They expose scams and tricksters and show how they do it. Similar to how Houdini exposed psychics in his later years. Really good show. No holding back. Penn’s parents died recently and he HATES the muthaf###ers who take advantage of people who are in pain.

  341. and it can still do. Scientology is a tool. It’s not anything else. It has helped people, as Vinaire says, Look. Scientology was not a cult. And still can’t be made into one as it has a lot to offer even under DM’s regime.

  342. hahaha, Oracle! There is the Greek spirit alive in that one dance!

  343. I have been up to Tone 45 at times now and then? How about you?

  344. Life is not all nice Alanzo. Wake up, there is a fight going on. Spartans were great warriors and in many cases helped the Athenians. When we start understanding force it will all become clearer.

    We speak different languages. You read Sparta as inhumane. I read it as another great ancient Greek cilivization which had a unique sense of pride in being Spartan. Then we had Christianity and force became a bad thing. So, the present civilization.

  345. It was the best day of my life.


  346. Roger, Scientology is not an easy thing. Especially as you move on the line you can’t have blind spots. The moment you let those blind spots unaddressed they are going to attack you. It’s not just that I say so. If you look at it, life is like that.

    So, most people (thetans) choose to continue leading a quite life as they can’t deal with the beast. I am not saying I am a bigger being than others. I am saying what I observed. And what I see now is a reluctance to continue. There are sometimes in our lives that we have to pick up ourselves by our boot straps and say what we have observed.

    Scientology is a 3rd dynamic activity, not just a 1st dynamic type of thing. It’s not even one auditor auditing his guts out trying to clear the planet. It’s a team effort. And there were no arbitraries in it. The moment an HCOB was violated that would be it. Then Miscavige started not ising whole sections of the Tech, making his own procedures calling them Golden Age of Tech. Arbitrary. Instead of doing the standard thing and inspecting the course rooms he did something else. But course rooms and supervisors needed completions. So, they had to graduate people. It was not about understanding much less ability to apply the data, it was more about completions and points. 2nd arbitrary.

    No one can shove down your throat the basics of Life. You either understand them or not. That one does not understand them does not mean that they don’t exist much less they can’t be used. How many different basic notes are there? 7 or you can say 12 sharped and flated notes. From those notes millions of different tunes can be made. Still the basic notes are 7 or 12 depending on how you look at it. Now, here comes this guy who is a maestro and he doesn’t know his basic notes. He consistently omits one or two. What would you think of him? Then he wants to be the maestro and the orchestra must abide to his directions. Pfff, he is an idiot and those following him are more idiots than even him because they don’t look.

    Scientology has taught us some things. Not to be arrogant but to look and keep our position in space. That’s called arrogance by many. Just because they don’t understand. But it’s not. It’s called integrity. As Scientology has helped you become better which I am sure he did, likewise you should have helped it become better which you are not doing. Don’t be surprised that we are not becoming bigger then.

  347. Thank you Oracle. I think we are on the same side. On the spiritual side of life. I learnt many things by Marty. An openness of mind, a love for literature and the humanities.

    I am no enemy, certainly to Marty. I am no enemy to my enemies either. Maybe it’s a mistake but I feel like that.

    Marty is a warrior and something happened to him on the way. That still doesn’t make sense to me, lol!

    The fact that we speak different languages now does not make us enemies. Yes, we can’t understand each other very well. That’s true. But still we are civilised people and can afford to exchange ideas. That’s another attribute of big beings. They can have the reality of others and look at it.

    Thank you again for your kind words. I feel that you filled a gap there for me with your words. I would like to see a better world. Scientology is a tool. If we misused it, I consider myself responsible for that too and blame it on myself that I didn’t succeed in stopping the arbitraries. And I consider that Marty knows a lot of stuff so it’s a tremendous waste to not get in comm with him, even the hard way that sometimes happens to be the case here. That’s all.

  348. Beautiful poem! And it may well be a more accurate version of the Fall from Grace – and how to get back. Thank you for posting it, Deep Granny. 🙂

    Btw, whom had they awakened?

  349. Javier, I found this link by googling “ethics repair list”

  350. But you don’t have to study the whole history of matches, including how many unwanted fires have been started with them, or what the true purpose the inventor had for inventing matches – or be “hellish competent in all related matters” – in order to learn how to beneficially and safely use matches.

  351. Marty, Tony is double sharp! 🙂 He’s double sharp! 🙂

  352. Hi Windhorse,
    I surely agree with you. That Slaughter gal is/was
    not a very nice person. I met her once…very arrogant
    and condescending. She used the tech on Lisa in a vicious
    way in the wise of writing O/W’s and other ethics actions.
    I understand the money angle and all that but a Cl XII,
    when it comes to the tech should not be at the mercy of
    anyone. Their only job is to HELP a pc progress and to
    HELP a pc in distress. Nothing else should matter….to
    hell with the idiot execs the pc comes FIRST. They should
    have been willing to take a bullet to the head to help and protect Lisa
    and they didn’t.
    If they would have done what they should have done, Lisa would probably
    be alive and well today.

  353. “Marty is a warrior and something happened to him on the way. That still doesn’t make sense to me, lol!”

    We have many of us been warriors. That is just one identity. We are capable of many identities. A warrior can also be a healer or a magician or a builder or a writer.

    The thing about being a warrior, is that you have to have a war to be one.

    Maybe what ” happened to him” was an expansion of Identity.

  354. The worst thing about Scientology as a third dynamic activity is that it is guided by the goal to make money.

    The goal of money has always corrupted third dynamic activities.

  355. When addressing my purpose to “put order into chaos”, I realized I would always need to throw myself into chaos to fulfill that purpose.

    This is the stuff of GPMs.

    In order to be a warrior, one must always have a war or a fight.

    If there are fights going on, it is because people need fights in order to perform in some identity.

    In order to heal, one must have damaged people. So on the one hand, you want to heal people, on the other hand, you need to have them damaged. This is a GPM.

    In order to attack the Church of Scientology, or Scientologists, one must have them. In order to attack psych’s, one must have them. In order to attack squirrels, one must have them. In order to heal “wogs” one must have them. For David Miscavige to justify the I.A.S., he must always have a pending basket full of law suits and SP declares.

    It’s all pretty ordinary GPM case stuff.

    What I see is that Marty is not getting hung up in the GPMs and this violates some people’s realities.

    Well, hey. What person out here that can think with GPMs would be locked down into one? This is the most telling aspect of the fanantics that are out here dramatizing case all over Earth that they don’t have the first clue about Scientology.

    I see the biggest protest reads out here on Marty about him not being locked down in GPMs.

  356. Theo wrote:

    Life is not all nice Alanzo. Wake up, there is a fight going on. Spartans were great warriors and in many cases helped the Athenians. When we start understanding force it will all become clearer.

    What fight is going on?


  357. Roger from Switzerland wrote:

    “In Milestone 2 it was said that most clears are Stuck and most OT are living a miserable life ! Why?”


    If Scientology did even half of what Hubbard said it did, some of these guys would at least be in upper management of Fortune 500 companies – if not the CEOs. They would have at least won a few Nobel prizes by now (from whole track memory-based inventions alone!) Or medaled in the Olympics.

    But no.


    As Milestone 2 (and The Oracle) says, Clears and OTs be nuthin but a bunch a broke-assed bitches!

    If Scientology be workin, how can that be now?


    (Sorry Roger – that was not proper English so don’t learn anything from me!)

  358. It’s a good thing I don’t care about your opinions then. Have you reached Nirvana? Somehow I don’t think so.

  359. Using your logic, nobody would ever invest again. I suppose reading WTH is dangerous too and should be thoroughly investigated for hypnotic powers?
    I won’t keep up with this back and forth. I think we both have our realities. It’s cool with me whatever you want to think.

  360. Woah Alanzo, that was an alter is. I never said clears and OTs were a bunch of broke assed bitches. I said that is what was published on that blog. Let’s try to maintain some standard of truth here.

  361. Tony did make it his personal business “to know” for decades. I see no reason to take that from him or pretend it was of no value. He has made efforts, I see no reason to pretend that didn’t happen either. I also see no reason to wholly discount and qualify his understandings. Seriously, are you issuing certs and awards now for enlightenment? There are people down on the streets that have never entered a Church of any kind, and their understanding is just as valid as mine and yours.

  362. Gerhard Waterkamp

    How did this become about matches?

  363. I believe that nobody should push their reality on anybody. Each of us have to work our own way through our experiences.

    But it is ok to put our struggle out there for others to see. Let other make of it whatever they want. Leave it to them It may help them, or it may not. It is ok either way.

  364. I think that the first goal should br to congruent with oneself. That would be a goal higher than the goal of becoming OT.

  365. Gerhard Waterkamp

    Hi Tony.
    you convinced me. I am going to invest in a company specializing in hypnotic powers.
    Peace out.

  366. “Once blasphemy against God was the greatest blasphemy; but God died, and therewith also those blasphemers. To blaspheme the earth is now the dreadfulest sin, and to rate the heart of the unknowable higher than the meaning of the earth!

    “Once the soul looked contemptuously on the body, and then that contempt was the supreme thing:— the soul wished the body meagre, ghastly, and famished. Thus it thought to escape from the body and the earth.

    “Oh, that soul was itself meagre, ghastly, and famished; and cruelty was the delight of that soul!

    “But ye, also, my brethren, tell me: What doth your body say about your soul? Is your soul not poverty and pollution and wretched self– complacency?” ~ ZARATHUSTRA’S PROLOGUE (3)

    For 2000 years, “spirituality” has contemptuously looked down upon the reality of this world. Religion has been mostly an idle speculation.

    But that “God” is now dead.

    Forget about those wretched self-complacent raptures, such as those of exteriorization. Get up and look at the reality out there and recognize what it actually is.

  367. The above is what, I think, Nietzsche is saying.

  368. Good to see you here, potpie!


  369. martyrathbun09

    The super amped scientology associative a=b=c syndrome.

  370. “What is the greatest thing ye can experience? It is the hour of great contempt. The hour in which even your happiness becometh loathsome unto you, and so also your reason and virtue.” ~ ZARATHUSTRA’S PROLOGUE (3)


    Scientologists and people with bloated egos love to look down upon others. That is the greatest thing they experience. It is greater than even the experience of happiness, reason and virtue for them.

  371. You bet, Oracle!

    Clears and OTs are floating on an existential boat of mutha fuckin paar-tay of existence.

    Got it.


  372. Vinaire wrote:

    “I think that the first goal should br to congruent with oneself. That would be a goal higher than the goal of becoming OT.

    I agree with you, Vinaire.

    But the very first part of that process has to begin with figuring out who, or what, exactly, “oneself” is.

    And this would include the major problem that the word itself “oneself” causes.

    That, alone, is the answer to anything we might be discussing here.

    From there, any discussion is probably unnecessary.


  373. I never left…..but thank you.

  374. If the tech is a confusing mess, along with built in blocks to its being corrected, then, as Marty suggests, walking away would be the best course of action. I am sure there are some good things on the lower end of the “bridge”, and I hope that someone makes a list or book about them one day, absent all the bullshit and sci-fi and control. There is nothing in scientology that we cannot live without. Any number of disciplines or practices which have been represented on this blog are each a viable path for an earnest seeker. There are teachers that are better than others, but there is no shortcut. Scientology was and is like cubic zirconia. In the end, it does not match the hype. All that glitters is not gold. What it promises of value can be found elsewhere in more depth and durability.

  375. Horatio wrote:

    Any number of disciplines or practices which have been represented on this blog are each a viable path for an earnest seeker.

    There are teachers that are better than others,

    but there is no shortcut.

    I very much agree with you, Horatio.

    Thank you for blogging.


  376. Oracle,
    I really would like to explain myself to you as I have considered you a friend. I would prefer doing it off of this blog if you are interested. I’m not sure that you got my point on this thread. This is not the best arena for personal conversations. Just a quick point is that I never thought anyone stupid who got involved in Scientology. That wasn’t my point.

  377. Mark N Roberts

    Helloooooo Alanzoooooo.
    Thank you much for that link to Michael Shermer’s Book excerpt. Fascinating stuff about beliefs. A great read for anyone.

    Oh, by the way, about whole track inventions. I may have mentioned this before. A few years ago I was out at Marshall Space Flight Center here at Redstone doing some electrical work. I was in a bldg. where they were doing basic research on plasma spray. They would spray metal powder of various mixes, through an electrical arc into a vacuum chamber onto graphite molds. The idea was that they could spray the superheated metal onto graphite positives, break out the graphite and the metal part would remain. The advantage was that they could create parts with channels that were difficult or impossible to machine.

    They were having trouble with the finished parts being too brittle or the metal mixes would not alloy properly. These were parts for shuttle engine thrust cones, which needed complex cooling channels. I had some chats with the engineers during down times and mentioned that they should add some resonate frequencies to the arc which would coerce the valence electron rings of the various metals to intermingle more freely. That if the frequency combinations were right, and at sufficient intensity, you could convince the atoms to share two electron shells. The valence shell and the one immediately beneath. Worth a try since electrons can pass through each other anyway.

    I suggested they study some of the physics of musical chords. It solved the problem of copper nickel alloys.

    When I went back to finish the job a few weeks later, they were smiling real big. It is now a proprietary technology owned by NASA and the military.

    Using combinations of physical frequencies to manipulate electron bonds in metal alloys is common practice in high technological societies. It is most common in high pressure hammer forging. Get the temperature, pressure and frequencies just right, and you would be surprised what you can do.

  378. This is a very important piece of writing that you have produced here, Theo.

    I hope every one reads it, here on Marty’s blog, with the curious intellect of Socrates.

    In fact, I hope that every human being on Earth reads the materials of Scientology with the curious intellect of Socrates.

    That would be the fastest way of making Scientology disappear completely.


  379. Marildi wrote:

    But you don’t have to study the whole history of matches, including how many unwanted fires have been started with them, or what the true purpose the inventor had for inventing matches – or be “hellish competent in all related matters” – in order to learn how to beneficially and safely use matches.”

    Well written, Marildi.

    Well written.

    But when we examine what you wrote:

    But you don’t have to study the whole history of matches –
    – including how many unwanted fires have been started with them –
    – or what the true purpose the inventor had for inventing matches
    – or be “hellish competent in all related matters”
    – in order to learn how to beneficially and safely use matches

    Then we would be wondering why matches were so hard to fucking use properly.

    Wouldn’t we?


  380. The Oracle wrtoe:

    Tony did make it his personal business “to know” for decades.

    I see no reason to take that from him or pretend it was of no value.

    He has made efforts, I see no reason to pretend that didn’t happen either. I also see no reason to wholly discount and qualify his understandings.

    Seriously, are you issuing certs and awards now for enlightenment?

    There are people down on the streets that have never entered a Church of any kind, and their understanding is just as valid as mine and yours.

    This is actual philosophy from The Oracle.

    I think I am beginning to finally understand Her.


  381. No. One does not have to figure out anything. That is the simplicity of congruence. All one needs to do is handle, one at a time, wherever attention is fixed or dispersed. And that’s it.

    When all attention is optimum, you are there.


  382. What I liked about L. Ron Hubbard is that he took responsibility for what he knew and made that known through the Admin tech. If we are victims of the GPMs (an area that I don’t know much about much less been audited on any of such phenomena) I would like to see people coming out and helping others run them out instead of dramatising their dramatisation by blaming them for that.

  383. Find out, I am not going to tell you.

  384. True. It can be. But there are points where I strongly disagree with. Like the monotheistic religion thing. That was a blasphemy. Lol !

  385. Alonzo, let’s set the record straight on everybody once and for all. I got into Scientology because I thought I had a reactive mind not because I thought I had implants the moment right? That came later! 🙂 And where I got into Scientology originally and where I got into it thereafter we call the true Squirrel Kingdom. It’s like a horror movie. DId you ever see that movie about the giant rabbits, they were like 20 feet tall? Valley of the Rabbits or something, NIght of the Lepus? Like Scientology, Valley of the Squirrels! 🙂

  386. I am always interested in what you have to say Tony. Thank you for clarifying that. Thank you for considering me your friend, I am your friend. I know you did a lot to help, I understand the torture you were put through, I understand the frustration. I also know what a good friend you have been to Marty and to a lot of other people. There are ebbs and flows and forces and conditions that summon up the best in us, and those that seem to distort us as if we were looking into a twisted mirror at the circus. And, we do not all have the same issues or the same items. The better we are at our friendships, the more we care about one another, the better our chances of making this into the positive, we meant for it to be.

  387. Whatever gets you the life Alanzo.

  388. I meant to write, Whatever gets you through the life.

  389. The reason matches were so hard to use properly was that we didn’t know who was the first to discover phosphorus.

    Oh, and we didn’t make sure that person got proper credit. 😀

    Seriously, though, I don’t think “matches” were always hard to use properly. It mostly depended on who was using them, when and where – as we’ve discussed.

  390. Thank you Marildi. It’s based on The Gita.

    I would have said ‘the devil’ and his minions at the point when I wrote this.

    I don’t think God would make anyone burn in hell. I think He might enable their growth instead. But that takes time. Some spiritual beings were prepped for Heavenly existence, while others were ‘unfinished’. So God gave them a ‘cocoon’ of sorts. A planetary womb. I believe there are spiritual beings being detained in the physicality of Earth. They were allowed to sleep during the metamorphosis phase of their growth.

    Their ‘lucid dream’ is where we find ourselves right now.

    If they had been allowed to sleep and transform for another 5 billion years, until our dying sun burns off their physical place of growth, then they would have been changed into a spiritual being ready for life in heaven. But they got awakened early, still in a state of tantrum.

    When I wrote this poem, I didn’t know about Dianetics. Now, I think they are God’s engrams. God imbued them with spiritual ‘life’ because everything God touches is alive…kind of like the Midas touch, but with life instead of gold. God is not forsaking His engrams. He just needs to deal with them so they can be ‘returned to the standard memory banks’.

    So, God’s engrams are awake – early and unfinished. We need to get them back to sleep so they can continue their metamorphosis and eventually return to the standard memory bank.

    I think Earth is alive. A living lock. She will help us get them back to sleep, and we will clean her volcanoes so She doesn’t have painful explosions.

    You might enjoy this one, Marildi!

    Cyclops by GrannyDeepSea

    Both Homer and Virgil relate a strange story
    I don’t think we’re reading it right
    Originally it was a job that meant glory
    Requiring a terrible fight

    The battleground was the Cyclopean Shore
    A beach found near Italy
    The soldiers arrived full of pride and they swore
    To battle till victory

    The battle was fought with the giants, they say
    The kind that had only one eye
    They could carry a tree as if it was child’s play
    Large rocks they could toss in the sky

    The writers implied they were very large men
    Against whom our heroes fought
    But I think the writers were lying again
    Let’s puzzle through what we’ve been taught

    Cyclopean brothers are part of a tribe
    And they’re always related to AEtna
    We’re told that each one of them has just one eye
    It’s implied it’s the kind with a retina

    The job of our heroes is always the same
    To puncture the eye of the giant
    The writers reduce it to almost a game
    And of course the big guys are defiant

    But what if the story’s relating a fact
    Concerning historical actions
    A job that the Little Prince did on his world
    The truth is now open to factions

    If pressure was vented from AEtna through holes
    That needed to always be open
    The vents would now take on Cyclopean roles
    Representing those whom we have spoken

    A hero thus willing to stab at the ‘eye’
    Would usually give up his soul
    A sacrifice misunderstood by and by
    When they threw people into the hole

    Eventually pirates were born from this job
    And AEtna allowed to explode
    The ‘heroes’ became a fierce ravaging mob
    Unlike what the storybooks told

  391. Oracle,

    Thanks for your pathetic little swat at me,

    Tony asked for help a post back, he had a question about Bts, etc and I offered him my sincere help and so did Marty. By Tony’s reply he did not want to invest the time nor the effort to sort out his confusions and learn something new. Beyond that I don’t know Tony from and apple.

    And I’m still willing to help, that is why I post in this blog. Which I’m sure it pisses you off to no end, how a nobody like me can have something to say spiritually. No, no in your little scientological brain only Ron or properly anointed OTasses like you can speak.

    But unlike you, what I have to say does not sell or drive people into Hubbard’s implant station and a life of mental stupidity.

    My posts speak for themselves.

    Please grow up and come to present time, we are not in Scientology anymore. Learn to let it go Oracle.

  392. What I liked about Hubbard is that he lived the life he wanted to live. And I think he could have gone to certs and awards and been asked if he wanted everyone else to have those same gains.

    I have no idea why some people lived a life they didn’t want to live. Or, why they are now unhappy about a life they lived, they are no longer in, but spend the life they do have, dwelling on a life they regret living.

    I have lived the life I have wanted to live too. The point is, people should live the life they want to live, and not live life other people think they should be living. Marty is living the life he wants to live. Yet he gets people attacking him for not living a life they want him to be living!

    Anyone who isn’t living the life they want to be living, is letting themselves down. Can’t put it on Marty or anyone else that they aren’t living the life they want to live, because Marty isn’t living the life they think he should be living. What’s Marty doing? He’s just living his life.

    Is his life Hubbard’s life? No. You look at every person involved in Scientology, is anyone of them living the life Hubbard had, or are they living the life they think Hubbard thought, they should be living?

    Did Hubbard live his life based on what others thought he should be doing and thinking? I don’t think so. So why are the rest of that burdened? If he wanted to sell information fine, sell it. Don’t tell people how to live once they get home with it. Just sell it and let it go.

    This whole Sea Org government thing was a gross mistake. Insisting on control of your customer’s lives once they leave the lobby, that’s no fucking sale. A sale is over at the cash register. People pay you hand them the goods or deliver the goods. Getting employees to work for free to keep your business open, that isn’t a business. Does any of it bother me? Why should it if I have lived the life I wanted to live?

    Did Hubbard do the work he asked others to do? No.

    Does David Miscavige do the work he asks other to do? No. Does he live the life he expects others to live? No.

    Let’s keep it real Theo, these guys throw ideas up in the air and ask for volunteers. The volunteers then get together and try to ENFORCE a beingness, doingness, nothavingness and livingness, on everyone else.

    Meanwhile, how do they get people into Scientology?

    “Are you living the life you want to live? No? We can help you with that.”


    Listen, this isn’t just a Scientology thing, this goes on all over the world. People expecting you to live in a life they want you to live in. And when you don’t, they fucking hate you for it!

    What is all the hate towards Scientologists right now? They are not living in the life anti Scientologists want them living in.

    I am trying to think of a proper word for this, but it is so distorted. People angry because you are not living the life they want you to be living. As if you OWE your livingness to THEM.

    I mean, then you read this Ruth Minshull book “Miracles for Breakfast” and this woman is going on and on about how you should be living your life as a parent and not only that, how your children should be living as children. And then this becomes biblical. You know, there is this whole civilization here with billions of people and everyone got it wrong before Ruth wrote that book? Duh?

    How hard is this? Treat your child like you would want to be treated if you were a child. I read that book, no way in hell would I want Ruth Minshull for a fucking mother.

    “How to Choose Your People.” Now she is going to think for me long distance about my company? Laughter! I have known some very low toned people that very good friends. And I have known some high toned people that were fucking sociopaths. I don’t need Ruth Minshull telling me how to pick people, of all the fucking arrogant self serving critical uppity bull crap I ever read.

    Here is the thing, I don’t want Ruth Minshull or anyone else demanding that I live they want me to live.

    Marty has a right to live the life he wants to live. Speak the words he wants to speak. Feel the things he feels. So does everyone else.

    You don’t see the Squirrel Busters parked in the Catholic Pope’s front yard do you? You don’t see the Milestone ll gang attacking other people for their religious or spiritual views.

    It is Scientologists that do this to Scientologists or former Scientologists or anti Scientologists, even though Hubbard and Miscavige live the lives they want they live with wild abandon.

    I just don’t get this kind social intercourse but there has got to be a name for it made. Where the pawns monitor and harass the pawns. And it isn’t just in Scientology. You should feel the heat in Beverly Hills for wardrobe between the women, even if the clothing designers wouldn’t be caught dead wearing what they sell.

    Do you think the Kardashion sisters would be caught dead wearing any piece of the clothing line they are selling at Target? But how many girls will go to high school tomorrow and get bullied because they aren’t wearing something bought from Target?

    And here is David Miscavige, who I have been watching and learning from. Do you know what his power is? It isn’t the cash. He blows that left right and center and has plenty of personal reserves. It isn’t the public. He shut down the Mission Network and he thinks nothing of violating those people at every turn. It is his staff. His workers. Those bodies he controls. He is totally into controlling bodies. Approval from bodies. You pull out all the staff tomorrow, that boy is fucked. If the staff at Int turn on him, that boy is fucked. Hell, he is fucked when staff leave and turn on him.

    I realized a few years ago he had been piggy backing on Marty, Mike, Karen and others. Him, depending on THEM. NOT the other way around. With his key staff gone he farms out more and more duties to non staff! He is wholly dependent on attorneys right now, that are not even Scientologists!

    This is really awesome social studies if you can stand back and look at it.

    But one thing he banks on, is people out here working to undermine anyone that does not support his government. The one that he himself is not governed by. Only you, only us. Only “everyone else”. My curiosity is, why? Because he wants to explore the super natural? I don’t think so. Every time you slap somebody else, he has a win.

    At least, Hubbard did start exploring the super natural. If people aren’t into that, that is fine with me. I am, and I am living the life I want to live. I realize people want apologies for that but what I am supposed to do about that?

    Hubbard did not live the life of a Sea Org member or a Scientologist. He did not make a billion year commitment, he wrote that he was doing something different in his next life. So why are people out here beating up other people, for something Hubbard didn’t ascribe to? Why does Marty get attacked for not bearing some mirror like resemblance to other people when they think he should? David Miscavige doesn’t live the life of a Scientologist or a Sea Org Member. He only tells others how they should live it. And then they PARROT that shit and run it on one another!

    Seriously, who is wrong for living the life they want to live instead of living the life you want them to live?

  393. Oracle,

    Scientologists are the less qualified people on earth to talk about GPMs, well Scientologists and probably the Taliban.

    Scientologists would have to first be able to identify Hubbard as the main source of the black masses of confusion they find themselves in, to have any relevancy in what constitutes a GPM or not.

    The Tao and The Middle Way are the ancient way out of the “GMP”, no need for sociopathic cults and lunatic cult leaders to reinvent the wheel.

  394. Scientology is a very difficult subject. Confusing.
    Sample: Instant read. Many words have been written around what an instant read is. There is even a confusion if in auditing on the grades you run every process or only those that had an instant read.
    Let us say the instant read is defined as the read that occurs after the question had been asked in full. At the precise end of the message. BUT on another reference it says at the end of the major thought. So, what we do here? The safe side is that we use “end of message”. We can complicate it a bit as we introduce “telepathic” non verbal communication. Every one of us does it usually without noticing it. We anticipate usually the meaning of the sentence spoken to us before the sentence arrives at the dot. So, there would be a need to observe exactly and according to our observation decide if it has been an instant read or not. BUT that cannot be recorded on tape.
    Then there would be a need to TRUST the auditor.

    As I had been inside trust had been a word that no one did know. Lack of trust then had to be compensated by control. As control did not really work had to be extended to self control. As I cannot even trust myself. “I have to make sure that I do not read a word I do not understand, as that would hinder my progress up the bridge.” Something stupid like that.

    So, golden age of whatever cannot work. A Scientologist (or all of us) need to trust each other. If I tell a comrade my concerns or doubts and are reported to authorities then life cannot work. Life needs free flow of ideas for its survival. Trust is like water for a plant. Leave it out and the plant finally exhausts its life.

  395. you mean, like someone just newly out of the closet?

  396. At least +10, if not more….. 🙂

  397. Sometimes the conversations get too heady. Sometimes they get too terse. Sometimes they are wonderful. Sometimes boring.

    A friend of mine recently posted on her FB page this quote from Chogyam Trungpa who I tend to not study; although I studied with his son. My own personal bias’ kept me from reading Trungpa as well as his very poetic type of teaching — I needed, for a long time, very definitive teaching. i.e. … this is a rock, this is a person. Not metaphors or allegories. Part of the reason LRH’s work appealed to me. I didn’t have to think with it. Just follow the rules. (others more skilled *could* think with it — I never could)

    In any case — I loved this recent quote she posted:

    “The Buddhist approach is that you could help yourself, rather than being helped from the outside. You learn that you can help yourself—completely. Buddhism is not a pyramid approach. One of the symbols for Buddhism is a wheel. So it’s an eternally circular approach, rather than a pyramid approach. Faith is meant to help you. It recirculates things: what you put out goes around; it goes around and then it comes back to you.
    Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche

    Thanks to my various teachers which includes LRH as well as my friends (which includes Marty) and others (those who are now “haters” of all things LRH or all things Marty) … I am learning every day how to help myself.

    Not long ago I could barely make any sort of DEEP decision without taking a survey of my friends. Should I stop talking to so and so. Should I keep this unhealthy relationship because I am certain of change.

    I am learning I can help myself — completely.

    My wish is for all of us to be able to do the same.


  398. Trust? At no time did you mention whether or not one should trust the PC.

    An “auditor” is there for the PC. The session is there for the PC. The question is for the PC. At least, in my mind that’s the way it’s supposed to be.

    Try this in your next session with a PC who wants to improve something:

    Clear the command or question; Get the PC to state what it means to him…not just a cursory, obligatory statement but really tell what it means;
    then ask the PC if HE/SHE is interested in running it.

    What I’ve found is that about 80% of the time the PC is interested and it reads. I won’t run anything the PC isn’t interested in running. There are so many processes that could be run to help the PC achieve what HE/SHE wants to achieve. Running anything he’s not interested in puts a subtle or not-so-subltle protest into the procedure and squashes the PCs self-determinism.

    Making the PC dependent on the motion of a little needle on a dial to tell him what he should do or think or perceive? The meter can be helpful but this fixation on using it as the God of what we perceive is psychotic.

  399. As I would not make a general statement about Christians, Jews, Black people or Asians, so I would not make a statement that simply identified “Scientologists” in pointing out “their” deficiencies or lack of virtue.

  400. “THE” reality? ….. ah yes …. THE reality … the one and ONLY reality that “actually IS” ……

  401. Hi Granny,
    Kirsty is active on twitter. You can send her the link
    to your book there.

  402. I have wasted 27 years in Scientology, other than to finally agree with a book seller lady at a small bookstore in Phoenix Arizona who initially warned me not to waste my time in Scientology. .

    In summary, she said Scientology was a “crank” and “quack” subject. .

    1) past lives trauma talk therapy that leads to the supposed state of clear

    2) high volume dead space alien soul exorcism.

    Both these 2 practices are crank pseudo science quackery, placebo benefit only.

    Her points I lament were right.

  403. I believe that “human-centric” view is limited. Here are some products of the human-centric view:

    (1) Earth is the center of the universe.
    (2) The sun circles around the earth.
    (3) Awareness is what human think it is.

    I believe that there is a “reality-centric” view that goes beyond the “human-centric” view.


  404. It has been mentioned that I can talk more and say less than anyone else.
    Oh, by the way,,, well,,, never mind.

  405. In my opinion there is only a cosmic twisted spring that is trying to unwind itself.

  406. In my opinion, Scientology is not a monotheistic religinion.

    Scientology is actually a polytheistic religion where gods will fight each other to gain supremacy, the moment they get a chance.

  407. A GPM is basically a “spiritual” or Scientology version of an engram.

    So we are confronted with solving a GPM to which LRH succumbed to.


  408. “Overenthusiastic, unskilled, and uncritical,. . .” Describes my younger self very well. I hope that I have been paying attention and learning as that was a loose cannon approach to living.

  409. This kind of philosophy comes from believeing that each person has his own universe, and each of these universes is more important than the real universe.

    This is an interesting form of nihilism.

    One is receding away from reality into their imaginary world. The ultimate product of this kind of nihilism is somebody like Elizabeth Hamre.


  410. “The Buddhist approach is that you could help yourself, rather than being helped from the outside. You learn that you can help yourself—completely. Buddhism is not a pyramid approach. One of the symbols for Buddhism is a wheel. So it’s an eternally circular approach, rather than a pyramid approach. Faith is meant to help you. It recirculates things: what you put out goes around; it goes around and then it comes back to you.” ~ Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche

    To me, the key Buddhist approach is “seeing things as they are.” This is called mindfulness.

    When one starts to apply mindfulness, one realizes how tautological this universe is. A wheel is a good representation of such a universe.


  411. I simply pointed out Tony’s history.

    You’ve gone all over the place about it and down roads I don’t even travel.

  412. The idea of “instant read” of an E-meter is the reason why many valid responses from the mind are ignored. Because of this rule many cases routinely get messed up in Scientology.

    A valid response from the mind is a response that is straight from the mind without the interference that comes from thinking or imagining.

    An instant response is likely to be a valid response, but not all valid responses may be instant. A valid response could be slightly delayed if it has to come through other things that are stacked upon what the question is addressing. Sometimes a valid response occurs days later.

    This is the key area where mindfulness is more appropriate than the e-meter. Please see Memory Recall

    This is an error that is as destructive as a “false read.”


  413. Thanks, Potpie! Have a wonderful day!

  414. All makes sense.

    This atmosphere around Hubbard’s ideas being supreme, no matter if he was doing the “squirreling” or even if he borrowed other Scientologists’ squirreling too, that actually is more like normal group subject development anyways, in that they evolve, and to various degrees snipe at each other anyways, no matter what, or moderately criticize each other or praise each other for their developments.

    But when you start with some huge crank quack principles, all you get is placebo benefit similar variations, all equally placebo!

    In Scientology, the Hubbard defense policy to protect Hubbard’s “final version” of the crank quackery is just Hubbard’s script for people who dared show up to do Hubbard’s quack crank tech and be graded per the Hubbard grading system and labeling of Hubbard’s whole package operation.

    Hubbard wrote the whole extensive system in which all the post titles of the people who today guard his system on multiple levels, all crank quack high sounding titles, but underneath, the “tech” is just various people’s suggestions to do this or that practice, and the result is factually just the same percentage placebo beneficial.

    The squirrels tech is just as placebo good as Hubbard’s tech, no matter how anyone came at their final exact worded version! Hubbard’s got his own cop system to police his placebo ‘standard tech’ though.

  415. Scientologists are overwhelmingly “self-centric” because of Scientology Axiom #1.

    In Christianity, there was only one being that was God. All other beings were created by that God.

    In Scientology (because of Axiom #1), every being is elevated to Godlike beingness. Thus, beings have their own universes where they are God. And they carry a nihilistic attitude toward the MEST universe. It is part of Scientology religion.

    Therefore, Scientologists are overwhelmingly “self-centric.”

  416. I feel the same way Joe. Blanket declares about a people or a culture is a subtle form of injustice. I consider it a disservice to all mankind when people manifest such social intercourse. Makes me glad I pay property taxes though, to keep the schools open.

  417. When I run across it on the net, it is usually just some form of heckling.

  418. Your heckling is beginning to sound too familiar. I’m petty flat on it now as a form of noise.

  419. Nope. Your reply was as irrational and non sequitur as your usual tantrums when anybody criticizes your Godman or points out the insanity of your religious cult.

  420. Great post and aligns very much with self governance I think. For me, I learn daily. I never wake up with the same viewpoint I did the day before. A day of living is never wasted as you can learn a lot on one day.

    I keep thinking about the reasons for the different outcomes with the Scientology, and I just think people had different reasons for exploring it. I actually never had a goal to “go clear” or do the “OT levels” or “get up the bridge”. I went clear by accident and only got interestied in knowing what was on the OT levels after 9/11, and it was all right there on the Internet when I got curious about that.

    I was there in Scientology for the same I reason I was everywhere, I wanted to know what going on in there.

    I got hit with the a lot of slurs, Dilettante, reasonable, spectator. blah blah blah. But it was all true. I didn’t feel bad about being any of those things. I just admitted it and owned it. “O.K., so what”?

    I really can’t think of any day in my life that I regret, because I took away something from having lived that day.

    It is as you describe the wheel. You wake up every day, you get a ride on the wheel. You never go to sleep the same as you did the night before.

    Living, is a wonderful thing. I know a lot of people think this planet is second rate and pretty shabby. But any place you live where you wake up and while you were sleeping everything changed, and there is a whole new world that happened over night, I think, you are living a very cool place.

    Earth is like one big wheel that keeps on turning, or one big ball that keeps on spinning, and nothing ever stays the same. This is very interesting Universe to me. The knowledge, always shifts with the planet. So it is all temporary and conditional and relative. You just can’t cling to anything here as a constant. And if you don’t know how to dance on a rotating floor, you are gonna fall flat and cling to something that seems like it is still. When you find out it isn’t, you are going to get motion sickness. And get stuck in a picture you can hold still.

  421. Michael Fairman

    Chuck, I had a similar experience. About a year after I got “in” , a dear friend of mine visited me in Calif. He was my best friend in the world. I told him I was now a Scientologist, that it was the best thing that ever happened to me; that Hubbard had all the answers, and that I was on my way to spiritual freedom. He looked at me and just smiled. The only question he asked was “Scientology has all the answers? I was emphatic in my praise, He smiled again and said something like, ” I think that might be a red flag”. He went back to NY, and we never spoke about Scientology again. Sometime after that I found he had some serious shit going on in his life and was on Prozac. After learning that, I didn’t speak to him for over 20 years. When I left the church, he was the first person I contacted. First by e-mail, then by phone in a three hour conversation. Since then my friend and I are back to where we were. Sane and aware people know. I should have seen the red flag – the many red flags that were flying in my face. I didn’t, and also got sucked down into the rabbit hole. Nearly 30 years of church, mostly wasted.

  422. “What I liked about Hubbard is that he lived the life he wanted to live. And I think he could have gone to certs and awards and been asked if he wanted everyone else to have those same gains.” ~ Oracle

    I doubt this statement looking at how Hubbard’s life ended.


  423. And, whenever you dance to someone else’s music, you gotta pay to the piper. So what? Keep some change in your pocket.

  424. Thankfully all sorts of people showed up at Scientology/Hubbard’s door, so I never took people like you (Vinay) as “bloated…..”, you seemed pretty much a smart Indian MIT grad person who happened to be giving the Sea Org a try! You were probably the most educated Word Clearer in Flag Service Org’s history, the tiny bit of time you held that position, among your other way higher staff jobs!

    Another non bloated type was John Eastment and his wife Peggy! They’re still hanging in there I think!

    Just being able to criticize Hubbard or his ideas is a luxury outside the Hubbard operation, since the Hubbard rules don’t allow debate or half acceptance of the Hubbard whole shebang script if you want to play Scientologist per the official full Hubbard script.

    I wonder what people like Ray Mitoff and John Eastment do think about, wish people like them could write what they think about their lives and why they still are there.

  425. I really liked John and Peggy Eastment. They were wonderful and down-to-earth. I liked you too Chuck.

    I was a small and skinny Indian who was very different from everybody else. I could easily distinguish those who were without egos because the way they treated me.

  426. When I first trained, the old way, the older experienced Flag auditors would drill with their fellow newer Flag auditors.

    They learned from existing auditing HGC auditors, the ones that cared.

    They wouldn’t drill with except those other auditors who really knew how to do it properly.

    I’d watch the Flag HGC auditors, in 1976 spring to fall period, drilling in the course room or in cramming. The experienced auditors were even called upon by the Cramming Officer to drill the other auditor being crammed, so the one being crammed was being drilled realistically and properly.

    The drilling with an actual good functioning HGC Flag auditor of that era, and the trainees from outer Sea Org orgs that came to Flag, just getting to drill with the good Flag auditors then auditing in the HGC at Flag, was one of their goals! They wished to be drilled in cramming or on Internships by the Flag auditors, that was the mentoring.

    That whole era of training is gone.

    Some people are “natural” auditors, out of years of experience, but the “old” training system was through Flag auditor drilling and Flag Cramming Officer cramming, and making the lower echelon auditors get through the old Flag Internships of the end of the Apollo auditor era and the beginning of the Flag Service Org at Clearwater era, like when Dennis Erlich was becoming a Cramming Officer in the Flag Internship and for the Flag auditors.

    You had to be drilled by someone who was a successful Flag auditor, really, to find out how to do it.

    The drilling by rote memorization and the Drills Binders and using the Drills Simulator today, in all orgs, one loses that session one on one drilling the old Flag auditors could give.

    But even then, only good outer org/Sea Org org auditors could even be drilled by those then better era Apollo auditors.

    I recall Brian Livingston mentioning it takes about 5 years of out org auditing to even be up to doing a Flag internship.

    Years of being a productive day in day out HGC auditor in an outer org is necessary before you even get up to Flag Internship standards, and if you are willing to learn what you don’t know, you could get through the old Flag Internships.

    Things were always watered down and lower standards, all through the period I watched Flag tech closely (I was an observer Dec 1975 to March 1977, then I was out of tech to then become an admin course supervisor).

    What the pc said about an auditor held huge sway! The auditor’s code seemed to be way higher in the minds of tech people at Flag compared to the later group mentality that it was MORE the preclear’s overts.

    Today, the preclears are beaten down with ethics, and the auditor deficiencies as a group are covered for by the oppressive anti preclear attitude.

    But I’m no supporter of the whole system now, of any era, but the earlier era I witnessed the Apollo vet tech people first applying auditing to preclears in the FSO HGCs of 1976-1977, there clearly was MORE on the side of the opinion of the preclears, their opinions held sway over the tech people, compared to today.

    Complaining today about tech people, and the preclear is the target.

    Complaining about the tech people back then was a huge deal and the tech auditors were much more responsive to the preclear’s cases, my opinion.

    What really has happened, is because Scientology leadership turned MORE into non tech people, not only has the “executive C/Sing” become the mis-rule, but also the preclears, the followers, are dominated like they are staff, and they are not treated like “cases.”

    It’s all various fads of fantasy to me anyways, so even reminiscing about better tech days of the Apollo vet auditors like Leon Steinberg, Brian Livingston, David Mayo. Murray Chopping, even Ron Norton was a stellar case cracker auditor in his day before he became a trained asshole executive, Maude Dorr/Castillo, Merrill Mayo, Lieke Halders and I forget the others, Karen de la Carriere was stellar then too, Sheryl forget her last name, Denise McGahee, Gwen North.

    I recall some of the auditors ONLY drilling with others they trusted, they wouldn’t drill on their crams with anyone else.

    That era of tech people is so long gone, it was gone by 1978, and I never saw that same level of tech at Int, only a few people at Int did I even think of as decent old tech types. Heidi and Hansuli Stahli seemed like newbies compared to old tech people like Brian Livingston and no one at Int in all the years I watched the Int tech people were as good as Leon Steinberg, and the problem is people at Int, with maybe the exception of John Eastment, even knew of that earlier generation of tech people like Leon.

    The history of Scientology’s tech people hasn’t even been written by anyone I’ve ever read.

    Karen could do it, possibly.

    But again, what is standard tech? This blog thread is right on the money.

  427. Vinaire – I agree very much with your comments on “human – centric.” Personally I do not identify in any complete sense with the limiting label of just “human.” As far as reality goes, I do not recognize that there is only ONE reality in existence.

  428. I don’t have or own or belong to a religious cult. You are tripping on me.

  429. The following is a typical human-centric view in Scientology.

    “Reality is agreement.”


  430. Karen,

    You are right, I believe I’ve been the only voice in the last 10 years attempting to discuss the Flag auditor scene PRIOR to the Int Base “tech view.”

    There is a whole late Apollo tech auditor era. There’s the Daytona tech scene, that pretty much was the same as the early (Dec 19, 1975 when the Flag Service Org opened at Clearwater, first day after moving from Daytona), up to 1978ish, by that time the Int Base tech scene only absorbed a few Apollo vet auditor tech people, Merrill Mayo and David, Julie Gillespie was kind of at least the Apollo era tech mindset but that 1978ish Int Qual Gold was NOT up to Leon Steinberg standards exception Merrill Mayo and maybe Rich Cohen, who I forgot Rich was an old Apollo tech auditor vet, but Rich wasn’t even up to your quality of auditing Karen!

    No, I recall when I talked to you Karen, the depth of your sighing about the old Apollo vet tech standards, that even I as a lowly traineed in the Dec 1975-Mar 1977 FSO TTC could appreciate, has never even been reached, in my “tech” opinion, ever again, in the movement’s history, with the exception of the type of people are call the “natural auditor” types, the people who are just walking “auditors of the year” type of natural good human beings that I think today OUGHT to have become therapists in other practices, not Scientology.

    The Flag tech people, the “old 12s” are NOT Norman Herring and the leftoevers today, bless their hearts (not really, I think Scientology’s a huge waste of everyone’s time honestly).

    The history of the Leon Steinberg and Brian Livingston quality auditing just has never been even mentioned, except in my way overly praising posts the last 10 years!

    (David Mayo thinks people ought to NOT do Scientology, and I agree, skip it all!)

    I’d love to hear what Leon and Brian have to say today, about “tech.”

    I’d love to hear “tech” from the following:

    John Eastment
    Leon Steinberg
    Brian Livingston
    Jeff Walker
    Merrill Mayo
    you Karen!
    Sheryl Liccardi (or whatever her name is today)
    Denise McGahee
    Peggy Eastment
    Gwen North

    Karen, someday I’d like to interview you on tech history, even though you know I think it’s all placebo (it is) and delusion, but the old “standards” of giving the preclear MORE sway, I think is one major shift in Scientology history, even as nutty as the tech really is.

  431. I think I am finally getting the hang of what Nietsche is saying. I am being assisted in this by the application of mindfulness, in addition to help from some friends. My primary observation is,

    To Nietzsche, Übermensch was a state in which man was congruent with his natural self. A resolution of the social, cultural, and moral contexts was necessary to evolve man toward Übermensch.

    “Down-going” seems to be a movement down into abyss that is man.

    “Over-going” would be movement from animal to Übermensch, over the abyss that is man.

    “Earthly” would be seeing things as they are without the distortions caused by assumptions, expectations, speculations, etc.

    “Superearthly” would be believing in things as viewed through the filter of assumptions, expectations, speculations, etc.

    Man is an in-between phase. It is something to experience fully (down-going), and to be overcome (over-going).

    Those who are able to experience themselves fully as man (down-going) are the one who will be able to overcome the state of man (over-going) and move beyond it.

  432. Not to imply that I have problems or hidden resentment towards people that are involved with religion or cults. The Board of Education is a cult. If I were to sit on the Internet and harm attack and suppress other people for their religious CHOICES, I would not very well be able to look my friends in the eye that are members of the Mormon Church, the Hari Krishna, the Nation of Islam, etc etc etc. I have made it very clear I do not consider Scientology a RELIGION or a Church. Why you CONTINUE to try to SHOVE THAT down my throat is beyond me.

  433. Dear Marty,

    One thing I noticed is the preclear was given way more sway in the scheme of things.

    Since Miscavige, the preclear, the “case” side of the equation has been silenced more.

    Preclear time as a Scientologist, used to be a different experience, less oppressive.

    A Scientologist has to even appreciate one post of Julie Gillespie Mayo, of almost 20 years ago.

    Her description of C/Sing the Int staff member to have their PTS item be another Int Base staffer, and for the Int Base tech people to NOT think a thing wrong.

    I don’t believe in the tech, but Julie’s tech mindset is the old tech mindset, the pc’s view is king.

    In Scientology, under Miscavige’s “executive C/Sing” reign, there’s been a long term turning the movement members away from their “cases”, towards follower roles suitable to Miscavige’s executive C/Sing views.


    PS: So even though I don’t believe in Hubbard’s tech, any era, I did notice that Flag tech people gave WAY more acceptance of the preclear’s case, and that era was being ground away and Int Base tech people were frankly dismissive by contagion of Miscavige’s dismissiveness of people’s “cases.”
    Even so, that just to me means Miscavige tilted the placebo benefits of Scientology further against doing Scientology practices during Miscavige’s era.

  434. I don’t like to get personal but damn, you must be a real fucking mess as a bed partner.

  435. martyrathbun09

    I appreciate your observation. However, oppression has little to do with the mechanics described in this post

  436. In so many ways discussing Scientology is a losing proposition, I don’t know why I waste even more time on it, but Vinay, I remember you pretty well, and really enjoy listening to your opinions.

    You knew what kind of person Leon Steinberg was.

    Let me ask you Vinay, have you ever seen any auditor since Leon, who you consider has the same “auditor beingness” as did Leon Steinberg?
    (I never saw Otto Roos, only read some of his writing which was impressive tech wise.)

    Leon to me today, stands out as the most impressive Class 12 I ever saw. I wonder what Karen thinks of the various auditors. Karen herself being of such high caliber, and what it takes to get to that old level of old Class 12 was a chore and a half (but again, to me, today, the “auditor of the year” natural auditor types of people are potentially just as stellar topnotch auditors, although I think doing Scientology is a huge waste of one’s time and life, become a legitimate therapist of a legitimate therapy instead!

    I guess an old Apollo era Case Supervisor who C/Sed the 12s of the Apollo “best” years would be needed to pipe in, as the C/Ses see the auditor errors, and do a really good honest history of the “tech” of those years, compared to later Int Base tech years.

    Hara O’Klein, remember her, she’s Hara O’Hare, she was close to the old Apollo era mindset, but she obviously wasn’t on the same side of things as even Julie Gillespie Mayo was, back when at the Int Base, the Gold Qual Tech people of Rich Cohen’s then Gold Qual, who were the last final holdouts of the old Apollo tech mindset, before at that crushing of that old Qual Gold, the tech scene really in Scientology history was the beginning of a major watered down era, that coincided with the David Miscavige era of executive mis-C/Sing, I asked Bruce Hines, he dated the real bad further downtrend being when Miscavige in the late 1980s browbeat Mitoff (who himself was a watering down significantly of the Apollo era mindset).

    It all needs to be laid out, that history how it went downhill.

    Loss of the Steinbergs, LIvingstons, Choppings, Mayos went to Int (and then were lost), no one ever replaced the tech auditors that came ashore from the Apollo era, that whole crowd majorly disintegrated by 1978.

    And the Int Base tech scene was anti pc, the whole era was blame the pc, ever since.

    Auditor’s Code seemed to me more sacrosanct when I was training, which was Dec 75 to Mar 77 when I bombed out.

    Did you ever do any auditor internships, or did you do the Word Clearer Internship? I recall when you were HCI word clearer at Clearwater.

    One thing about really auditing the preclear’s case, and NOT the executive mis-C/Sing era of today, is that the movement members can genuinely be interested in THEIR own cases, and they likely will be happier, even if it is all really delusion nutty stuff they are doing.

    The standard tech disintegration to me is real. It’s disintegration on top of the placebo percentage gains of Scientology’s delusional practice by horrible movement executive C/Sing and the points of this thread.

  437. Possibly for the same or similar reason that Alanzo insists on shoving down my throat that I am a “Scientologist”?

  438. Karen,

    You always leave out Robin Lindsell, a Class 12 C/S and bombout, rightly so, Robin was horrible Class 12 of even Apollo tech vet and he shouldn’t ever have been a Class 12, his demise I would concur with as a tech person.

    There were other Class 12 Apollo failures, wasn’t Ron Gablehouse Class 12, and so was Russ Meadows, neither of them to me exemplified the high quality Auditor’s Code natural auditor beingness compared to the ever present auditor beingness of someone like Leon Steinberg.

    Ron Shafron, I keep forgeting him, I was impressed seeing him walk around.

    When I was the lowly TTC member, with my TIP for Class 12, I used to eyeball all you Class 12s, checking out your presence as Class 12s, and some were just impressive people.

    I’d agree with Marty’s assessment with the has been leftovers Marty interacted with, but they are NOT of the Leon Steinberg caliber by miles.

    Norman Herring puts ME to sleep thinking about listening to him!

    Karen, you and Leon ought to go on video record for history!

    Someone needs to dig up Leon Steinberg, and Otto Roos, before those two die, and interview them!

    You should Karen!

  439. Karen,

    One of the most important things you said publicly, that truly is important for Wikileaks historians, is the counter facts to the Hubbard claim of “exteriorization with full perception” stably achieved by doing the L rundowns.

    You saying this has tremendous historically significant weight that deserved inclusion in encyclopedia articles about Scientology/Hubbard’s claims.

    People will have the out of the body experience here and there in Scientology, like they have that experience in life (I believe it’s hallucination in all cases). But to have a long term Apollo vintage Class 12 auditor and later Class 12 C/S say that “stably exterior with full perception” is NOT the case, is historically important for Scientology historians to LISTEN to your statement!

    Thanks for being public on that one point, alone! It is very important vital information for the public to all hear!


  440. Great answer from your friend, and from you.

    I remember in 1994 or 1995 you did one of the ASI readings, as one of the characters, at one of the Saturday readings of an LRH story.

    I said goodnight to you, as you walked to your car in the garage, you really had/have good star charm, you always have. You were unbelievably gracious.

    So to talk about smiling at people, your smile is one of the standout memories of all the Scientologists I ever met, thanks for that! I did several takes at you, you can bank on your smile, thankyou for it, it was a pleasure to even see and speak with you even so briefly.

  441. Yes, there was some charm to those old days; and they are missed.

    I very much enjoyed my adventure in the Sea Org, though it was quite hairy at times. But they were all learning moments in some way.

  442. Thank you, Granny! Your poems deserve better educated readers than I am, but they are still interesting and enjoyable to read. I’m guessing you have published them and that they’ve been very well received!

  443. I ain’t nothing but a hound dog, What was Elvis thinking? I can sniff them out from miles away.

  444. Vinaire, Interesting test or observation. You said; “I could easily distinguish those who were without egos because the way they treated me.”
    I am supposing that you refer to those who could Grant Beingness to you. Its likely that anyone who can comfortably grant beingness to others will have their own beingness in balance and not be egotistical. Ego’s of self importance are focused on their own false identity beingness.

  445. Just watched that video detailing Nancy Many’s horrible experience inside the cult. My goodness. The RPF while 5 months pregnant! Eating garbage and living in a garage. Hubbard’s evil knows no limits.

  446. Mark N Roberts

    I have a feeling I will find something valuable there.

  447. Mark N Roberts

    To be, or not to be. Perhaps, ‘Who do you want to be’ is a better question.

  448. Thank you, Marildi – Health*
    I have a poetry page at I turned my research into poetry there. The Asteroid is very long, but you might enjoy it.
    Here’s the first 3 stanzas. Have a great evening!

    The Asteroid part 1 by GrannyDeepSea

    I was flying through outer space one day

    When a planet happened by

    I saw her coming right toward me

    But no matter how I’d try

    I couldn’t move to the left or the right

    I could only continue to fly

    I got too close to her atmosphere

    And my body said goodbye!

    I couldn’t escape from the atmosphere

    It held me inside like a bubble

    I could fly all around on the inside though

    But I seemed to be sensing some trouble

    Feelings of terror and chaos loomed

    And although my old body was rubble

    I felt the desire to help in some way

    And some Angels were there on the double.

    The Angels said you’ve got so much to learn

    And we know the best way to teach you

    We’ll put you in bodies from small to quite large

    We’ll be using your spirit to reach you

    You’ll suffer and learn and then suffer some more

    But we will stay right beside you

    Because you desired to help in some way

    We will always be right there to guide you.

  449. Thank you, Granny. That was uplifting, for whatever reason. 🙂

    There is another woman who posts here sometimes who has similar perceptions to yours. For example, she too considers that there is a being whose “body” is planet Earth, and that there are beings in other “inanimate” objects sometimes. You might be interested in some of the blog posts in her blog:
    Health to you too!

  450. Hi Marildi,
    I couldn’t reply to your reply, but I want to thank you for the link to Elizabeth’s blog. I too, believe that there is latent life even in seemingly inanimate objects. I look forward to reading her blog.
    Have a wonderful evening!

  451. Hi Granny,

    JFYI, there are only a certain number of “tiers” or “levels,” so comments that are posted after that have no reply button. However, what you can do is to click on the “Reply” button on the email notification of the particular comment you want to reply to. That will take you to the end of the page, but when you hit the “post comment” button, it will appear in the right place.

    You must be on the other side of the planet from where I am in the US – so I will say have a good day! 🙂

  452. Thanks for the instructions, Marildi. Can you also teach me how to make someone else’s comment that I want to address show up in italics?

    Hmm, I am in San Diego – current home of really weird weather…lol! So, I go to bed around 11pm to midnight. When I join the collective consciousness at night, I get to see you! It is our job to offer positive vibrations to the folks in China and Australia while they are ‘awake’.

    This belief, that we lend each other help when we are ‘asleep’ kind of changes the truth about ‘awake’ and ‘asleep’. I mean, when we join the collective consciousness, we also become the sum total of all of our lifetimes – our ‘higher selves’. I think we are actually ‘more awake’ there than when we reenter our bodies each morning and open our human eyes.

    So, have a wonderful day and a productive evening!

  453. Hi, Granny. Sorry, I haven’t learned how to do italics. But I would like to, and if and when I do learn, I’ll let you know!

    Thanks for the very interesting comments about what occurs at night. I don’t know if I’ve experienced “the collective conscousness,” but how does that relate to the Akashic records?

  454. Hi Marildi,
    Nice question. I remember reading about this and making the same connection. I reread it just now, and I would have to say that in Scientologese crossed with my theories, the Akashic records would be God’s time line, right? A purely spiritual record of everything. Have you read about Plato’s Ideals. All of these things would seem to be related.

    We can’t possibly re-member those things from the collective consciousness because there’s just too much memory required. Our brains have large capacities, but not that large.

    That’s where intuition comes in. That’s also where ‘listening to your inner voice’ comes in. The problem with interpreting voices in the head is that they all sound the same – exactly like thinking. Jesus even said He would speak to each of us in our own voice. That’s because our brains are like ‘harps’ and the ‘harp strings’ are synaptic thoughts. If the string exists, a spiritual being can pluck it to cause us to think a thought.

    The problem on Earth is, the demons that are supposed to be asleep right now, got wakened up early and in a state of tantrum. They just want chaos. They can pluck a thought string as easily as an Angel can. Therefore, you can’t trust the voices. So, when you begin to study, you must apply the Kalama Sutra to whatever you consider. That way, you will not go astray.

    IMO L Ron was a gifted prophet, but he got pulled off track by the demons. He was intrinsically much smarter than me because he has an older soul. Older souls can automatically use these human brains better than the younger souls. I realized I have a younger soul a long time ago when my dad used to get upset at me over the game of chess. He kept telling me to see the whole chess board. Ain’t gonna happen! If I was playing chess and the cat jumped on the table and knocked over all the pieces, I would not be able to replace them. That doesn’t make me stupid, it just shows that I’m at a different level. I’m like in kindergarten and L Ron is in high school.

    The demons he had to face were able to cause more damage through him than they ever could through me, because he was more capable than I am.

    Anyway, I have only brought back the most fleeting glimpses of the nightly meeting to my active memory. Sometimes when I’m waking up, I can feel a drill sergeant screaming in my face telling me ‘You Can Do This!!!’. I spend my day trying to do my best, not even knowing what I’m trying to do…lol. So I just keep swimming, as Dory would say!

    Have a wonderful day, Marildi

  455. Hi, Granny,

    On the subject of intuition and another subject you’ve commented about, the one to do with the relationship of health to spiritual awareness, I wanted to tell you about something I learned of just recently. You may already know about it – it’s called “vibrational medicine,” and the practitioners are sometimes called “medicinal intuitives.” Below is a short video of a man named Dr. Richard Needle, PHD, who gives a brief explanation of what this is. I think you might find it appealing.

  456. Sorry, Granny, that link brought up the whole playlist but the specific one I meant for you to see was this one:

  457. Thank you Marildi. I watched the entire playlist. He didn’t give too much specific information, so allow me to fill a few things in.

    First of all, I just happened to get off of a 7 day rational fast. After my near death experience on Labor Day, I wasn’t breathing very well. I came to the conclusion that I had developed an allergic reaction to my favorite food and that was exhibiting itself in increased asthma attacks, of a generally more severe reaction. I was surprised because I was consuming frozen bananas, coconut/almond milk and a variety of nut butters. I already knew that I can develop allergies by over-consumption of the same food, and it had happened with peanut butter before, so I bought 3 different butters.

    Pop this into a nutri-bullet for under a minute and you get ice cream. I can’t have milk based ice cream (allergic), so a health alternative was fantastic.,, a bit too fantastic.

    So I did the Whole Food Farmacy Liquithon for 7 days and I can breath again. Our bodies spend a great deal of energy digesting our food, so when you provide the body with crushed whole foods (in the phi ratio in this case), you enable the easy absorption of nutrients with no energy wasted on digesting. That leaves the body’s energy free to heal you and return you to a state of health.

    In addition to the liquithon, I take vitamins B and D from Vitamin Code and there are extra nutrients in them, and I also take a liquid sulfur supplement. The last and definitely weirdest part of my healthcare regime is the use of 100% food grade diatomaceous earth. Truth be told, the fountain of youth dried up and left this magic dust and the FDA/pharma companies don’t want you to know about it. This stuff is crazy and amazing. I’ve been taking it for a few years now. The size and shape of the diatom scrubs the insides of your veins as well as the entire digestive tract. The silica replaces a nutrient that is vital to the body, but that has been depleted from the soil, so we can no longer count on grains to supply it naturally, because nobody will replenish the earth properly.

    I watch David Avocado Wolfe on occasion. This one warns against doctors and dentists. I agree. I’ll finish this rant with something very important – stop brushing with fluoride toothpaste and stop drinking fluoridated water. Fluoride calcifies the pineal gland…the third eye. Did you know it actually has rods and cones! I just found that out last month. Evolutionists suggest that it’s a vestige of a light sensing eye from the forehead of a lizard! Amazing!

    Have a wonderful day!

  458. Thanks, Granny. Well, I’m happy to tell you I have avoided fluoride toothpaste and fluoridated water for a number of years now. 🙂 Yes, I too have been a bit of a health enthusiast and am familiar with most of the things you mentioned – even the food grade diatomaceous earth! A friend of mine swears by it, like you.

    Vibrational medicine is my favorite health “find” to date, which is why I wanted to share it with you. A couple of friends and I recently consulted the doctor in the youtube videos you watched – and, for starters, just by switching to the specific type of spring water he found to be suited to our individual genetics (a different brand for each of us), we noticed an almost immediate difference in well-being. Since you watched the whole playlist, you know that a “medical intuitive” basically operates in the non-physical realm, an ability he considers to be a gift from God. Btw, you can get a free consultation if you want by calling the toll-free number on his website.

    The subject of the pineal gland has come up on David St. Lawrence’s “Independent Spiritual Technology” forum. (David is the one who also has the “Possibly Helpful Advice” blog with the articles on Spiritual Rescue Technology, which is auditing of spiritual beings.) I think you would be interested in many of the topics on that forum, in addition to the comments on the pineal. After you register (it’s very simple), you can type the word PINEAL into the search bar to find all posts about it – among many other topics on the whole subject of spirituality. The site is huge, with dozens of different topic threads, so it takes some getting used to. Here’s the link, if you’re interested:

    Enjoy the collective consciousness tonight! 🙂

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