The Only Good Scientologist…


Last year I told a member of ASC (Anti-Scientology Cult) royalty that had I foreseen the outcome of my efforts to encourage people to speak and write openly and publicly about scientology, I would not have undertaken them in the first place. I likened the majority of public Scientology discussion to a tabloid pile-on fest. Since then I have watched it degenerate from even that: from a blame-filled pity party into a hate-driven trolling fest. A relatively neutral review of the postings – and ‘discussions’ – on the go-to ASC forums reflects that.

ASC bloggers and moderators and their following regularly congratulate one another for poking sticks in the eyes of Scientologists. They don’t talk about how their blustering will reform anybody or any institution. Instead, they revel in how much ‘pain’ or destruction it will create. ASC’s media liaison Tony Ortega has taken the krew to new depths. For instance, he ‘reported’ on a woman who intentionally drove her vehicle through the front doors of the Austin Texas Scientology Church. The vehicle stopped after smashing through the door to the Scientologists’ nursery. Afterward the driver expressed regret that she had not struck someone with her vehicle. Not one ASC voice in disagreement was raised when Ortega characterized the crime as an act of “vandalism.” Ortega – and his ASC following by encouragement – demonstrated that he literally places more value on inanimate fixtures than the lives of Scientologists, including nursery-aged children.

Anyone who advocates a more objective, intelligent discussion on Scientology is quickly labelled and treated as an enemy by ASC members. Even outsiders simply reporting newsworthy facts. For example, Ortega ragged on TMZ chief Harvey Levin for months because his outlet reported the fact of the prosecution of a man who made death threats against Scientology’s leader. Ortega publically denounced Levin for “carrying water” for Scientology. Apparently in the head of the ASC’s daily anti-scientology meme creator, the only good Scientologist is a dead one. That was certainly the way he treated Cathriona White upon first news of her death; at least while he used his feigned concern to charge (with zero evidence) that Scientologists were somehow responsible for her death. All that changed when media reported facts that pointed suspicion away from Scientologists. Then, even a deceased Scientologist became fair game for an Ortega-led, ASC slime campaign.

The ASC fora are not only riddled with trolls, the bloggers themselves have become trolls. Their antics have little to do with education, imparting understanding, and least of all heroics. The latter was made clear by one ASC blogger pronouncing with an air of authority that scientology is “Fair Game” and one may “say or do anything against scientology” and get away with it scot-free.

Trolls are free to troll and no doubt will continue to do so with lots of derisive laughs, and with no sense of conscience about the cumulative effect such hate might have on others. Those who find themselves considering whether to join the ranks of troll followers who employ degradation and belittlement for entertainment might want to step back and evaluate before they get sucked into that vortex.

A couple of credible studies show that trolls are a special breed of ugly creature. Please see Internet Trolls Are Narcissists, Psychopaths, and Sadists.  The studies highlight an irony. ASC trolls wrap themselves in the ‘abolish disconnection’ flag to give their trolling some sort of noble justification. Yet, Dr. Golbeck notes that the solution to trolls is just that, disconnection. Just as modern psychology recommends be applied to any sociopath or psychopath who might cross one’s path (see e.g., The Sociopath Next Door – Martha Stout).

I imagine that is why most self-improvement, awareness-raising and religious groups teach the virtues of some form of disconnection. For more on that, see Barbara Ehrenreich’s Smile Or Die. She traces the non-denominational disconnection tradition to the Transcendentalists – Emerson, Thoreau, et. al.  – who found societal forced-connection to be oppressive. Her book is a strong indictment of that tradition which in a way makes her account that much more credible. In attacking it, she reveals that the idea that ‘disconnection’ can be considered cathartic is as American as apple pie.

The specter of someone mustering the intelligence and courage to disconnect from sociopathic toxicity is seen as a clear and present danger to ASC leadership. I have seen them resort to deceit, attempting to break up families, bribery, infiltration, propaganda campaigns, intelligence ops, extortion and blackmail to prevent people from disconnecting from their klub.

Those in ASC leadership applying such tactics are also the ones most loudly and persistently complaining about Scientology disconnection. Paradoxically, those people made conscious decisions to disconnect from the ones they spend years wailing about having disconnected from them. They campaign other well-meaning people to join them in a war that promises to mend their familial rifts. By objective result, it has proven to be an avenue that only exacerbates the problems they sought to resolve. When someone is perceived as a threat to their hypocritical racket, ASC leaders apply their own version of disconnection; one that is far more arbitrary than that practiced in Scientology. That they can make a living on such hypocrisy is an interesting study in the culture of complaint our society seems to have devolved into. By wailing loud enough and long enough any wolf in sheep’s clothing can apparently draw a flock.

535 responses to “The Only Good Scientologist…

  1. Well written. Eye for an eye doesn’t work. Turn the other cheek. Thank you.

  2. “had I foreseen the outcome of my efforts to encourage people to speak and write openly and publicly about scientology, I would not have undertaken them in the first place.”

    I would define your efforts as wholesome. With the energy expended, a great deal of positive Karma has been generated. The unwholesome Karma will be there in proportion to the level of the audience. At this point in your efforts, I do clearly see your point. There was no valid reason for attacks on ex-scientologists to arise with such strong emotion. The intensity of the generated wave was keenly felt. Perhaps those who perpetuate this wave need to be aware that it is basically on the dark side of the occult. Why promote the target of destruction?
    The target of destruction is obviously used and promoted out of frustration. Hubbard was an enigma. A cursory understanding of his ego will not result in the destruction of his image. If fact, the ignorance will only strengthen it.
    Hubbard wrote millions of words and placed his ego in a pyramid. He constructed something which will hold until the end of the last Egyptian on earth.
    Much Metta,

  3. Gerry Armstrong, the granddaddy of ARC and Tony Ortega? One of his anti-Scientology statements: You don’t have to prove a god damn thing! You just allege…


  4. I mean ASC not ARC… Damn…

  5. Very good observation.

    By themselves doing what they despise about the CoS they make themselves just as bad.

    Sometimes I wonder if mankind ever is going to sort itself out if not even the people who could recognize some truth and benefits in Scn (which takes some intelligence) can’t even behave in a civilized and caring manner towards their fellow man. But has to dramatize like this.

    Personally I find it amazing that people will devote so much of their lives to that quest. Surely it must just be attention seeking, as there is so much more to life than holding a grudge and being right about the past.

  6. Correction:

    Gerry Armstrong, the granddaddy of ASC and Tony Ortega? One of his anti-Scientology statements: You don’t have to prove a god damn thing! You just allege…

    ASC leadership put a spell on me.

  7. What happened to that ASC lunatic who drives in windows near nurseries. Still driving?

  8. Can you reveal more about what really happened while filming Going Clear and My Scientology Movie?

  9. If you disconnect from the Anti Scientology Cult you are blackmailed? That is bad.

  10. yep, disconnecting from their klub is thwart with peril….it’s as if you’re in psychological warfare where they use what they know about you against you, yet they rabble about Scientology doing that to people….you have to essentially wall yourself off to best protect yourself….

    how dare anyone see the reality of the situation and leave?! i know the group think is strong but i still believe most of the people are good people at heart and just don’t even realize what they’re involved and what they’ve become….it’s not a pleasant wake up call to recognize you were acting like the group you profess to protest against…i still feel ashamed of myself, and even somewhat guilty, that i got caught up in that…

    i never understood though, while caught up in that, the vitroil towards some Scientologists–such as Marty, or the judging of people who got involved in Scientology, well just some….others could still participate in some Scientology activities and that would be fine, whereas others would be attacked for saying they still used some of LRH’s writings in their life….

    i was still there when the attacks on tmz were happening….and the car was driving thru that org….no one should have threats like that made against them or their organization, nor should anyone be endangered by someone having a car driven thru their front doors….the cat white coverage ranked up there with the cathy tweed post….disrespect for the dead, speculations, blaming Scientology with no evidence, etc…..shameful….

  11. Mark wrote:

    “Trolls are free to troll and no doubt will continue to do so with lots of derisive laughs, and with no sense of conscience about the cumulative effect such hate might have on others.”

    Or on themselves.

    Filling your days with disgust and ridicule and cruelty to others re-wires your neural pathways as you immerse your brain into your Internet Hate Machine every day. Your personality changes, and you become used to being hateful and destructive to others.

    Anti-Scientology is now just as toxic as Scientology.

    It’s over.

    Raise puppies, or chickens. Feed stray cats. Talk to squirrels. Try to win the friendship and trust of a crow. Plant trees and flowers.

    Do something life-giving every day.

    Heal yourself from this poison.


  12. Question:

    On Mike’s blog there are folks “getting off charge” re their experience in Scientology. There is emotional criticism similar to Tony’s blog.

    Does Mike’s blog represent what you are talking about?

    BTW, I believe I’ve only posted once at Tony’s. I just did not resonate with it. But I do see the function for some people to vent. And the high profile against church abuse.

    So I have two questions:

    1) Does Mike’s blog represent what you are talking about regarding ASC?
    2) Is representing Tony’s blog as “all negative followers of the pied piper of hate” not a generality?

    I have no inkling and have no hunch as to the why, but since this whole stop your case against the church thing happened, you are now targeting ex Scientologists with a grievance with no differenciation between haters and those healing.

    I’m simply interested in your thoughts. Between your blogs revealing the dangers of Bolivar and labeling ASC, in my mind, there is missing info.

    My question is not an attack. It is only question.

  13. See, I’m realizing now that this whole thing is because Marty is still a believer and thinks that scientology can be fixed. You can tell by how he writes about it. He is upset because people want it to be gone, and rightfully so.

    It can’t be fixed man, there’s nothing to fix.

  14. I was in Scientology. I knew in my gut that something was wrong. I never liked Miscavige. I never met him, but I think of the events in the early 90s when he seemed to become more prominent in the events. Heber seemed cool and other guys like Guillaume Lesevre and other execs, but Miscavige struck me as a greasy used car salesman.

    Years passed and I didn’t get very far on the Bridge. I was on staff, off staff, and back on again and then my wife was on staff. I could partially blame Scientology for not having enough money to get much auditing. I decided that the only thing that mattered was Scientology, and that doesnt pay very well unless you happen to be Jeff Pomerantz.

    I believe it was in 2009 I came across the “Truth Rundown”, the videos in particular. I studied all the video interviews and I watched yours two or three times Marty. In my best judgement I decided you guys were telling the truth. I thought then and still do now that it was very brave and honorable.

    I moved to an area away from Scientology and started commenting anonymously on this blog. Then I started using my real name and a world of shit began. Longtime friends and family disconnected from me and I was kicked out of my house for six month and nearly divorced.

    I thought some sort of “independent” Scientology was forming at that time. I didn’t know what the specific goals of this group would be, but I felt a need to be connected to people going through these similar experiences. For whatever reasons, this did not happen. I think a lot of people were looking at you as “the guy” or the next David Mayo or something.

    Then some people decided you weren’t filling that role properly and they started criticizing you, myself included. Then you get the MSII incident which I still don’t fully understand. I probably need to review that time period.

    Fast forward to now and you’ve got Tony and Mike doing their daily tabloid gossip blogs, for reasons I don’t understand. You have Scientologists who have drifted off into life, some joining the ASC, perhaps out of boredom. You have a few auditors doing their thing, but no groups really.

    I have received more auditing outside the church than in and I feel I got some really good results from it, particularly the Grades. I won’t get into a big defense of it here, but I think in the right environment with the right auditor I achieved some very beneficial improvements to my mental and spiritual state.

    At some point I got bored with being “against” Miscavige or against the Church or against the people who are against the people who are fighting the other people, etc.

    I think it’s good to step back and take a little time to get a different viewpoint, your own viewpoint based on some living of life and looking back to get a more realistic and balanced view of Scientology. I am in the ongoing process of doing that.

  15. Marty,

    A number of thoughts come to mind.

    1. The first one is: In, what was probably his last words to mankind, I got from a cassette tape: Hubbard said: When you try and help the insane, you will go insane. (That is very true.)

    2. When you correct an insane person on one of his insanities, he will find a new way to be insane. (That is very true.)

    3. Insanity is defined as: 1. The inability to discern between right and wrong. 2. To make right wrong, and wrong right. 3. To see wrong where there is right, and right where there is wrong. 4. Impaired judgement. 5. The inability to discern differences. 6. The persistent or compulsive desire to commit destructive acts.

    And I will add a few more: 7. The refusal or inability to respond to good reasoning and good logic. 8. The inability to recognize and or respond positively to truth. 9. Having shit for brains.
    (Having shit for brains is the result of failed parenting, (incl absent parenting) and being brought up in front of the TV.

    4. If you communicate with a low toned, low theta person, at a level of more than half a tone/theta level above his, he will boil over. The higher the tone/theta level you communicate to him, the more he boils over. (That is very true.)

    That is what is meant by the proverbs: Don’t throw your pearls in front of swine, for they shall trample them beneath their feet.

    and: Don’t throw what is holy in front of dogs. Because if they can’t eat it, or fuck it, they piss on it.

    I realized a problem in scientology many yrs ago. The problem was that I saw that scn was way to of a high of gradient for the large majority of people. I think you could also say that is was too high a gradient for Hubbard too. But Hubbard was a mixed bag. Very genius and very criminally insane. I can only speculate as to why, but I won’t.

    I see scn as a post graduate course in life and spiritual education that a person can take after they graduate from Christianity with good marks. This is where it will be most effective. And I mean scn done with all necessary corrections and done properly. As there is a right way and wrong to do almost everything.

    (The existing standard tech and over all body of scn data has a lot of false and limiting data, lots of wrong definitions and traps.)

    A person needs a lot of good basic operating data (truth education, and the more the better), before they can handle the high theta data of scn.

    (And they have to have a good sense for what truth is, (that means to have the eyes to see and the ears to hear, and the mind to discern and understand) and be capable of critical thought (see Carl Sagan’s baloney detector), and have a lot of data and experience to compare the scn data to.

    Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? Mark 8:18
    But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. Matthew 13:16.

    For scn to even begin to work properly, you need the Jesus factor.

    Seek the truth in all things. Only the truth will solve your problems.

    No one enters the kingdom of heaven, except through me.

    Otherwise teaching someone scn, is throwing pearls in front of swine.

    A Christian Scientologist

  16. Sincerely happy for you Chris. Glad you are experiencing the ability to step back …


  17. One thing I spotted that I think is dangerous, and I don’t know what you’ve written about this, is when a belief is self-serving. Or, packaged within a group, belief etc is the idea that simply by believing or adhering to it you become a superior person. You are upscale of your fellow man. You are “right” and “they” are wrong, etc. That gets into ser-fac territory. I see this A LOT, everywhere. I think mankind would be better off if, as a society we become more aware of this. It leads to a lot of illogic and fighting and war that is completely unnecessary. I’ve been working to let go of this crutch and I think I’ve about got it licked. I think there are layers of it. You can reexamine it and ask yourself in situations if you are truly being logical, benign and I guess loving even to “enemies”.

  18. ASCCC (wdne)

    “A walk down the path of history is crunchy with the crispy corpses of those who pooh-poohed or ignored the clown car of ridicule when it pulled-up to the curb. Who would have thought such a tiny car could contain so many infectious and revolutionary guffaws? Satires, parodies, blue humor, pants to the ground ass-wavings, tea-dumping, Modest Proposal submiting, 7 dirty word spewing, flag burning, frankly impolite, just plain rude and improper expressions of ridicule have either ignited reform, fanned the flames or kicked the corpse to make sure it was dead.’
    — Stephen Jones

  19. George Layton

    Aren’t those posting here scornful of the ones that are scornful of them? How is it ok to hate the haters? But hate is a rather strong sentiment. Why is ok to despise the despisers?
    When I point out hypocrisy, it turns around and points at me.
    Is it scientologists that people are against, or is it scientology?

  20. It’s just factions and cliques- part and parcel of the human condition.

    It’s true that I’ve been labeled “fence sitter” by someone for saying this sort of thing, but, honestly- think about this:

    There are several factors at play here.

    1) Not everyone gets along. Sometimes the conflicts were over concrete issues with one party squarely in the wrong; sometimes it was just misunderstandings.

    Inevitably, one or both parties gets into a mindset where nothing the other does is ok. Like you could pull an old lady, a baby and 6 puppies out of a burning building and the other guy wouldn’t say squat about it.

    2) The clique thing. “Well, my friends don’t like Julia because etc etc etc. We discuss her all the time. ” “You can’t be my friend and be Julia’s friend.”

    People do this stuff all the time and it gets magnified on the Internet.

    3) Escalation. Jane hates Guillermo because he told everybody she couldn’t metab and she used to write KRs. Jane’s upset and says so. She can’t get over it too well, either, because every time she talks about it on the ‘net, Guillermo makes fun of her and his friends chime in. Then Jane has one of those contracts taken out on him where the assailant smashes a pie on the person’s head. Guillermo takes pictures and tells everyone that Jane is OSA. Jane’s cousin gets mad and says a bunch of stuff.

    It doesn’t end well- in fact, it doesn’t end. It screws things up so badly that even if Jane talks about something pretty uncontroversial a Leah Remini interview or how her mom was glad she left CofS, she’s still greeted with derision.

    WADR, I don’t see this ASC stuff working out. There’re players from more than one side of the fence lobbing grenades over it. Yours is not the only blog where people are saying things.

  21. I for one Marty, am grateful for your encouragement, voice and providing a friendly place to voice (my) objections and on leaving the CoS. I would have left at any rate but being able to communicate to another about it is valuable and provides a means for as-isness. You did that. Naturally you were attacked for it but you have broad shoulders and eventually you prevailed against an evil machine directed at you. Well done. The years spent on that will fade in significance against the value in karma and ones basic intention in holding ones space. You have engendered to yourself a power greater than that of DM minions and millions. He is well aware that you set him back on his ass and not likely to revisit that fight.

    Personal integrity gains are the reward. You earned them.

  22. I think when you have feel you have an open license to harm attack and suppress your fellow man, this comes from some place anti humanity. Whether it be as a “Scientologist” or an “anti Scientologist”.

    The key figures pulling the strings in the ASC, were just as brutal to others when they were in the Church. They will always find an excuse to wallow in sadism.

    You hear them talk about how bad someone is in the Church, yet they are wholly willing to wallow in sadism under a covert criminal, a former sex slave purveyor and pathological liar at the same time. It is right out there in the open. It does not concern them to be in bed with this figure.

    They do not even represent the Anti Scientology Community. Neither the Ex Scientology community. The entire time I was exploring Scientology all of my friends and family were against it, and me being involved in it. They did not get abusive towards me, or anyone else. Because of it.

    I don’t even want to refer to this “asc” community, on a rampage under ESMB or UB, as anti Scientologists anymore.

    They are anti humanity. They trample human rights as often as they can. They trample other humans given any invitation. It is a pack of sadists and bullies dramatizing. And it has nothing at all to do with Scientology. Or Scientologists. It has everything to do with their propensity to harm attack suppress and disturb their fellow man. To inflict pain and suffering, and set others up for losses. All they have in common is electing new targets for fair gaming. The internet is just used to dramatize and destroy.

    It is the Anti Humanity Community. AHC.

    And they would be doing the same thing if they had spend their whole life growing up in a village in Kenya and had never read a book at all.

  23. “ASC bloggers and moderators and their following regularly congratulate one another for poking sticks in the eyes of Scientologists.”

    I guess that’s one interpretation. From what I see, the so-called ASC is more about poking sticks in the eyes of Scitnology iteself – the cherch, LRH, DM, the tech, etc., than it is about poking at individual members.

    But since Scientologists aren’t allowed the freedom (or have been in so long and are so influenced that they’ve chosen to deny themselves the freedom) to read anything about Scientology that hasn’t originated within Scientology, I’m not too concerned that anyone who might be poked at is even reading the entheta in the first place. They wouldn’t even know they’re being poked at and if they did it would just feed into feelings of persecution that could be used to justify the “us vs. the wogs” belief that the cherch propagates.

    When it comes to actual ‘public’ Scientologists, I see more sympathy, understanding (from having been Scientologists themselves in many cases) and a desire that those who are still in and are suffering from abuse, disconnection, etc. will one day escape or otherwise leave Scientology. I consider at least 90’something percent of all Scientologists to fit in this category. The average public, staff, or Sea Org member who’s money, time, or entire life is being exploited.

    As for the very small percentage of Scientologists the ASC does poke their sticks at, it seems to usually be the same, small amount of names that get the attention.

    When I see the ASC poking sticks in the eyes of individual Scientologists (as opposed to Scientology itself) it tends to be focused on Scientologists such as:

    – LRH and DM, who, it could be argued, are more the cherch itself as opposed to individual Scientologists. Most other top executives who don’t seem to be involved in the day to day running of the church, are close to or entirely invisible, and don’t participate (at least regularly) in antagonizing Scientology’s enemies, are given sympathy – probably for being confined to the “Hole.”

    – Tom Cruise and Kirstie Alley for ignoring the abuses of Scientology and acting as unofficial ambassadors of Scientology (though Travolta and most other minor celebs seem to get more sympathy than derision).

    – The “whales.” Probably a combination of the fact that they, more than average Scientologists on course, are propping up Scientology, and the very common in all of society (not just the ASC) antagonistic feelings towards the ostentatiously wealthy. Nothing is quite so ostentatious and obnoxious as giving/receiving giant trophies solely for giving money – as if you could just buy yourself spiritual freedom in the first place.

    – The smaller whales and celebrities who are more obnoxious than they are rich or famous. Grant Cardone, Joy Villa, the Scientologist in England with a castle, etc..

    – The type of Scientologist who even the average (non ASC) person who doesn’t follow Scientology in any way would find obnoxious. Scientologists like the inch wives, those who show up at airports to bullbait, those who try to deny entrance to little girls trying to go inside a Subway sandwich shop, “Squirrel Busters” and other “creepy” Scientologists, etc..

    Even discounting all of this, it’s kind of hard to get too upset that members of a group of around 20,000 who find themselves superior to all the Billions of “wogs” on the planet, might be getting poked at. According to Tommy Davis, the Sea Org is filled with “tough sons of bitches.” One of the earlier TR’s is bullbaiting – essentially poking sticks at others. It would seem the anti-ASC is far more concerned about the feelings of Scientologists than the Scientologists themselves who’s ability to actually feel soon becomes numbed, as planned by LRH all along.

    I still don’t see how the ASC is really engaged in massive stick poking of individual Scientologists, but even it is, so what? In the US half the country hates the other half and says the nastiest of things solely because they have different religious beliefs. In parts of the world it isn’t uncommon for people to actually be killed for holding different religious beliefs. Does criticizing LRH, DM, the “Squirrel Busters,” Grant Cardone, Tom Cruise, and the whales, or being snarky about the fact that a more anonymous Scientologist yells at ashtrays when not making clay demos really make them a terrible and evil person?

    I’m kind of surprised that a group of ex-Scientologists who have all presumably been on both sides of bullbaiting TR’s and far worse treatment instigated by the cherch (Squirrel Busters, smear campaigns, etc.) are so thin skinned; especially when the complaint is that ‘tough sons of bitches’ and Scientologists who are used to being abused are the so-called targets of this alleged stick poking.

    Just my opinion.

  24. One of them, desperate to keep the flames blazing and people restimulated, recently sent out a series of emails fair gaming Ron Miscavige, and claiming all the while OSA was on that rampage.
    “OSA is everywhere! OSA is everywhere! OSA is everywhere!”

    Listen, even those people figured out by now, it isn’t even about Scientology. In fact, they figured out a long time ago. When Miscavige got hit with a temporary restraining order.

    The reason the AHC has been isolating and terrorizing and fair gaming individuals, and has long forgotten David Miscavige and the Church of Scientology, is because they just stopped looking or bothering.

    They have simmered down to terrorizing individual targets and one another through false reports. The purpose, I think, in going after Marty and his wife, was to try to elect new threats to keep the police force relevant. To keep the leaders relevant.

    Because as soon as there is no threat, where is their value?

    So you find one of them actually mocking up threats and correspondence from supposed “OSA”. It is “OSA” behind the conflict now.

    No, it is one of their own and it has been for quite some while.

  25. Chad Braunersrither

    I read most the blogs and publications. I enjoy interacting with people who share a common history. I first started reading esmb and loved Robert Vaughn Youngs writings as well as Jeff Hawkins. It filled in some blank areas of my experience. I was able to connect with an old so member and we get together about every 6 months or so.
    I’m always looking for old friends who may have left as I enjoyed my relationships I had in scn.
    This is why I continue to read the different writings.

    I actually don’t really take to much in stock about ideas most of us exes have as it’s my humble opinion that we are/we’re lacking big time in critical thinking skills.
    I’m very open in my life about my past in scn and the so. People love to hear my stories and such an eclectic past. I know I’ve also been able to help at least 20 people from going forward in scn and one of them would’ve been considered a major whale had he swallowed the koolaid. I don’t even have to do much other than make sure that they look at both sides of the issues.
    Mark, I’m very appreciative of your earlier writings. I don’t wish harm on current so members as I’m sure they’ll need a soft landing ground at sometime in the future.

  26. This public service announcement, was brought to you by Windows 10.

  27. “Anti-Scientology is now just as toxic as Scientology.”

    This statement is unbelievably cruel to those who HAVE suffered in Scientology and managed to leave and rebuild their lives. To equate their ordeal with anyone or anything involved with blogging, commenting on blogging, commenting on commenting on blogging, is beyond ridiculous.

  28. Mark –

    Thank you very much for bringing my attention to Barbara Ehrenreich’s book “Smile or Die.”

    While I don’t agree with all her perspectives I do think she is completely right about the creating of mandatory optimism (her term) with the result of essentially wiping out the higher end of the spectrum (joy, bliss, etc.) with some kind of conveniently canned and barely conscious version of happiness called “vague contentment” is what we should all be “positive” about. Thanks, but no thanks, is what I have always said to that kind of bs, as well as the whole idea that “negative” emotions are always a bad thing.

    I found this interview with her in the internet archive and thought I’d share it in case others might be interested.


  29. “I have seen them resort to deceit, attempting to break up families, bribery, infiltration, propaganda campaigns, intelligence ops, extortion and blackmail to prevent people from disconnecting from their klub.”

    Care to provide any proof of your allegations?

    “When someone is perceived as a threat to their hypocritical racket, ASC leaders apply their own version of disconnection; one that is far more arbitrary than that practiced in Scientology.”

    Which is it – preventing people from disconnecting or practicing disconnection?

    Appears to me you’re just pot calling the kettle black here. Whine on…

  30. edit: “because they have different religious beliefs” should be “because they have different political beliefs.”

  31. I got a lot of those emails re Ron Miscavige. I do think they’re OSA.

  32. BINGO!!!


  33. “I actually don’t really take to much in stock about ideas most of us exes have as it’s my humble opinion that we are/we’re lacking big time in critical thinking skills”.

    What is, “thinking” ?

  34. Yes, he has proof of all of it. And so do I. Was someone supposed to report to you @ “freebeing” on a blog or forum?

    keep yourself informed, this ain’t know how to know university.

  35. Mark Plummer posted this 15 years ago. Now he is an admin for the Outer Banks who kicked Scott Gordon out for revealing to me what goes on behind closed doors. See – blog post. .

    Mark – agreeing with Tory’s points, 15 years ago – Excerpted

    In article , (Mistmagoo55) wrote:

    That is called Black PR. Black PR is taking something, anything really, to turn on a person and make them look worse. You can use their words, and turn them around so they mean something different. An example of this is perhaps I say I think Joe is working for OSA. He has been attacking me, etc and it just feels weird. IF he IS really with OSA, here is how they might handle it:

    “OH YES sure…Joe is with OSA! When does your paranoia quit? Can you not just have a nice conversation with someone who may have *some* critical thoughts of you without you going into a complete immature upset? Grow up!”

    See? Always attack back. That’s Hubbard, and straight OSA.


  36. Whaz up FreeBeingMe? It’s me…you’re favorite dude Lone Star! Lol…

    Ahhhh don’t be so serious FBM. The exes and critics internet world is a zoo. Just enjoy it! Add some nice scenery to the soundtrack. Like this…

    Don’t worry. It’ll all still be fucked up tomorrow. And the next day. And the next…and the next….and the next….

  37. Let’s call a spade a spade…The Underground Bunker is a BUSINESS owned and operated by Tony O. Income is generated by pages views, traffic, book sales and ads. While Tony may consider himself to be the “world expert on Scientology”, one only needs to sample his brand of journalism and the mentality of the Bunkerites, to realize this is not an intellectual pursuit.

    Without the ASC, the Bunker would be on its knees. Adding a new element to this drama – the Anti-Anti-Scientology Community (AASC) is more grist for the mill. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Bunker’s stats are on the rise.

    The Bunker is not my online community. I tried. Just couldn’t muster the hate.

    Regardless of how Tony wishes the Bunker to be perceived, it’s simply tabloid journalism. So, why do we treat it like it’s something more?

  38. And if they ever integrated with humanity, they would discover another government in politics. This is a sub culture anti culture movement that is a self interest group. Their activities, beliefs, and leaders and movers and shakers, have nothing to do with main stream society and do not represent main stream society. It truly is, an “underground bunker”.

  39. Except for a few isolated pockets, it is, “every man for himself” city.

  40. Thank you

  41. I can’t speak for anyone else here, George, but for me it’s the whole Scientology vs Anti-Scientology thing. It’s a thoroughly toxic game.

    If you go to one of the Church of Scientology hate sites where there are “commenting communities” and read over those comments by the Scientologists, and then, right after that, read over the “commenting community” in the Underground Bunker, you’ll see the same level of uniformity of opinion, belief, and disgust among lots of different people.

    There’s very little originality there, lots of AGREEMENT, and lots and lots of puke and vitriol.

    It’s just such a tired and toxic game, ya know?

    Have you ever tried to win the trust of a crow? It takes lots of patience and consistency, and lots of shows of friendship and mutual respect. Crows are really smart, and it’s been shown that they recognize you as an individual days and weeks – even years – after you interact with them. They are never going to let a human fool them. So you have to work really hard to build that kind of trust relationship with a crow.

    You can do it with peanuts. But you have to be consistent, and you have to have an open, kind, and friendly heart.

    That sort of activity is so much better than talking about Scientology with a bunch of bitter and disgusted humans on the Internet. Don’t you think?


    I just explained the whole thing to you from my viewpoint.

    Did you get it?


  42. I take it you did not respond with a link for the sender to open.

  43. Marty, you did good. This situation is not your fault for revealing all that you have revealed.

    This crazy hate fest of fundamentalists, exes, mixing practicers and bored people enjoying negativity is only the surface that you see on these social media sites.

    There are, in my opinion, many many many people who have been healed, are healing and have gained so much more personal freedom from what you have started.

    But those folks are all underground. They have just read what others have written and decided to lay low.

    And can’t emphasize enough that this was not caused by you and you have to fix nothing. You are not the cause of this.

    The writing was on the wall. If it was not you it would have been someone else.

    The cause of this are doctrines that have caused harm to people. Of course people have been helped also.

    But it is not the good parts that people are making such a fuss over.

    There are many many who have been helped. Below the radar.

    This genie ain’t going back in the bottle. You were just the messenger. You are not the why.

    It would have happened anyway. Truth always wins in the end.

  44. correction: “…the Outer Banks who kicked Scott Gordon”

    should be “…the Outer Banks group, the same group that kicked Scott Gordon”

  45. Yep. It is indeed a bidness. Hopefully the geriatric Bunkeroos will all end up in the same nursing home together so they can circle jerk themselves to the great beyond together. Whining…bitching…pointing crooked fingers…and moaning to the bitter end. (ooooh that’s an ugly picture).

    Maybe TO can found his own nursing home for ’em….call it the Howdy Con Acres. Or the Bunkaroo Retirement Center for the Indignant and Self Righteous. wqasssssssssssss (My youngest cat just typed that last word).

    Now let’s get down with some Robot Rock…

  46. Chad Braunersrither

    I was talking to my best friend growing up as we had similar upbringings and likes. We read the same books, interacted in many different school activities. Our biggest differences was growing up in households where critical thinking skills were taught. I grew up Mormon so I was conditioned not to read the “other side or opposing viewpoint”. He was taught those skills. When he bought his 12 1/2 hours he also picked up A Piece of Blue Sky from the library to look at the other side. I never knew this until about 2 years ago when I asked him what kept him from Scientology. He never tried to convince me to leave which was good as I probably would’ve ended a lifelong friendship.

  47. Read this:

    I’ve had both Fair Game from the Church of Scientology as a critic of them for 15 years, and as a person who wrote what I sincerely believed to be true in the anti-scientology community.

    I have the standing to compare them.

    And I do.

    You will find others, similar to me, who compare them, as well.

    Cruelty is cruelty, no matter where you find it.


  48. knatherthomas

    Thank you, Marty. I just ordered a copy of Smile or Die from Amazon. Per their description the book seems to be a primer on getting real which sounds quite refreshing.

    BTW, I applied “handle or disconnect” to Scientology when I was being pressured by Julian Swartz and other HCO types to “handle” my children…or else. Though losing some friends in the process was very unhappy, realistically it was a variation on fair weather friendships. In the late 80s a close friend confided to me that they weren’t going to do any more services and asked if I would still be their friend. My immediate response was that this decision had nothing to do with our personal relationship. And it never was an issue in a session or ethics for me. It simply never came up because it was a fact of life like the weather.

  49. One of the very best, concise and accurate articles about the true nature of ASC to date.

  50. Gerhard Waterkamp

    I think the point is convincingly made. Scientology is poison and has the effect to make people worse. Some had the stamina to think for themselves and not get sucked into the black hole of what is Scientology’s way of thinking.
    The points that have been made about ASC are the same points that have been made against the CO$. It is the same poison, just a different vector.
    As Brian said I believe too that many have achieved ‘moving on up a little higher’. They are not in the CO$ and they are not in the ASC, They have moved on and better things to do with their life’s. You hear little of those. And to me that was the real purpose of this blog.
    There is one difference though the ASC is just an annoyance along the road and once spotted easily avoided. The CO$ is a criminal racketeering organization with lawyers and billions of $$$ that is financially and emotionally raping and pillaging their victims and tears their families to shreds for the only purpose to protect its power and grip on people. So while it is for sure good to be aware of what the ASC is, the much bigger issue is the CO$. Losing that perspective is somewhat disturbing.
    So speaking out against the CO$ and their activities is a good thing, as long as it is not motivated by malice or to further ones narcissistic self-importance. (Tony’s big problem)
    So let the royal old lady at N. Serano Ave. plot and orchestrate her pity feuds. But let that not distract from what is going on day in and out with the CO$.

  51. 👏👏👏

  52. Does Mike’s blog represent what you are talking about regarding ASC?

    Just my 2 devalued cents on it …

    I consider about half the posters on Rinder’s blog ASC’ers and I know exactly who the trolls are and I never read their posts. Separating the wheat from the chaff I read through in half the time.

  53. Statpush wrote:

    “Regardless of how Tony wishes the Bunker to be perceived, it’s simply tabloid journalism. So, why do we treat it like it’s something more?”

    Because he’s the only one we’ve got.

    For too many years there was such a lack of any journalistic interest in Scn that when Tony Ortega started writing about Scientology in 2011 on the Village Voice website, it was like, “Fuck man. This guy’s a real journalist and shit!”

    Since then, we’ve had John Sweeney and Lawrence Wright and Alex Gibney and Bryan Seymore, and even Steve Cannane (not to mention Joe Childs and Thomas Tobin the whole time) – all real journalists writing about Scientology.

    But Tony Ortega has been the vindictive stalwart – continually pumping out the bile necessary to get everyone angry enough to attack everyone else with another viewpoint on Scientology. It’s his followers who are the primary marauding anti-Scientologists – all over the Internet.

    And so it is Tony Ortega who has ended up being the expert on Scientology among journalists. Even though he demonstrates daily that he doesn’t understand Scientology, or the people who got themselves involved in it, or why – he’s the dude, dude!


  54. I understood you and still do, and I believe most here also understand you. I identified your message as an effort to expose injustice, to help write wrongs and show that others are not alone in the conflict they had and their feelings with DM, the Scn. Org’s and many of the individuals in it. You made it OK to be there even if just virtually and communicate. That is huge and if it was exploited by the ASC so be it. I differentiate that group from you.
    I hear you load and clear.


  55. If you look further up in the comments, you’ll see I posted a link to the internet archive of a video’d interview with the woman that authored “Smile or Die” – if you’re interested. She’s pretty refreshing to watch – very real.


  56. Is this really the “FreeBeingMe” of ESMB?

    If so, it’s hard to think of a more egregious example of this behavior just described by Marty above in his post:

    “Anyone who advocates a more objective, intelligent discussion on Scientology is quickly labelled and treated as an enemy by ASC members.”

    -than when a small group of us were discussing Ken Ogger (The Pilot) ‘tek’ materials – not a far cry from Dennis Stephens Resolution of Mind ‘tek’ materials (which your freebeeing blog still promotes) – back in 2013 on ESMB, and when along comes FreeBeingMe, crashing the thread with boatloads of Steve Hassan anti-cult promotion (spreading our pages to ungodly lengths) adding embedded videos, and telling us bluntly “when will you folks get over that cult tek.”

    It was relentless, and the ESMB admins would do nothing about it.
    (then see post #509 – at the time of his posts, his avatar was a fellow in dark glasses shooting the place up with an automatic weapon – pay particular attention to his provided definition of ‘gaslighting’ in the glossary and to what extent he was engaged in doing just that)

    It killed the discussion for the most part, and I assure you it won’t go forgotten. It was something like a masked clown (you operate behind anonymity) coming along and casually spray-painting graffiti ruining everything, over some kids peacefully painting a banner in a park. And then gleefully trotting away and expressing not the slightest qualm.

    In any event, your comment to Marty is of the EXACT SAME tone.

    Oh well. I found out who my friends were NOT, since some of the others in the discussion then turned on ME for writing in the same vein as I am here (without using expletives), about our ‘rights’ to have a free and open discussion, whereupon I was shunned for “feeding the troll” and was left made to feel ‘I’ was the one who had killed the discussion (guilt by being there and daring to communicate).

    I “left” ESMB after that, and so did a few others there (which is the objective of many of these attacks, I assure you), bitter and traumatized, as I had thought (silly me!) that ESMB admins were being sincere when their statement promised policing of ad-hom attacks and spam. (The one person who privately approached me to soothe my ruffled feathers condescendingly informed me that I was ‘new’ to ESMB and that’s just how it is there.)

    It is impossible to me that you actually wrote the insightful words about the nature of the Supreme Being under your blog heading “Resolution of the Mind” – and could engage in behavior as nastily destructive as this.

    Do I need to even throw out a label as to what kind of person you really are?

  57. Clowning scn can bring a recognition like ” oh yeah, jesus thats what I hated also when I was in”. But after a while its like chewing on the same piece of chewinggum over and over again adding some sucre on it to keep it eatable.

    The thing that brings me forward is information that has been hidden. After 25 year in the organisation, I just figured out that LRH was married three times. Great news!

    Stories from people on the Athena missions. Great!

    The stories on the last 5 years of LRH and his end. Information that has been deleted and hidden, but all very important to be able to evaluate the whole picture.

    It made me angry to find out that big pieces of the whole story of LRH were simply deleted.

    I didn’t know of operation snow white. mary Sue in prison. The bad temper of LRH. The fact he died of a stroke instead of bliblabla ended himself his live in good health to continue research.

    Its like being withheld to evaluate for myself. Betrayed of being told only the best things and then being forbidding to search for the whole story.

    But now I am left with the goddammed question “was it all fake?”,”did I mocked up my wins on bridge”,”would I have been the same happy person now if I didn’t knew scn?”

    Who can answer me?


  58. You are spot-on here, Chris. Scientology does have the potential – done in safe environments – of allowing the individual sufficient depth of examination (if also given unmolested space and time to contemplate) – enough to break through these primary human thinking traps and self-serving beliefs like “We’re better than they” and “We know it all already” and “How wrong they all are” (or endless variants).

    Your realization however, is unfortunately too rare even in the Independent Scientology community, where few persist to complete their Grades, and those whose Grades were done in such a suppressive environment as the church became long ago, almost never give themselves opportunity to re-examine these remaining tightly-held fixed ideas before getting involved with “feel-good” groups, some of whom get positioned awfully close (and controlled by the same allied people as we’ve brought to light here) to the hate-filled individuals allowed to thrive at ESMB and Tony Ortega.

    Also beware that the post-1978 “upper” bridge (which is alive and well in the Independent field) does virtually nothing to address the individual and his/her fixed ideas interfering with a harmonious relationship with respect to Objective Reality, but instead substitutes some very suspect and very religious beliefs in themselves which, oddly enough, support making less of others and making less of even the lower Bridge gains, for being merely little dents in the “big planetary-level game” of “composite case.”

    Witness the large numbers of “New OT Level” veterans on SPs R Us, ESMB and Tony Ortega – among the leaders of the grinding rage and bigotry going on there. Many of them in their quieter, private moments will readily admit they got something good out of the “lower” Bridge up to Clear. But many have little or no good to say about those upper levels, and most are in a state of bitterness or rage at the betrayal.

    I know that what I just stated is supposed to be NONE OF MY BUSINESS (since I’ve never seriously “done” OTIII – New OT VII) and that marks me as FairGame in the Indy field (as if I wasn’t long ago already) because in saying that, I am by their standards, “barring the route for mankind” (“their route” for mankind – the one changed drastically from those original Scn basics intended for freeing individuals, by a decaying and ill ex-genius in his last years under duress of criminal prosecution).

    But my view on this is not at all unique – (unless you account for me not having done these levels, but merely having studied them) – and is a long and deeply studied observation.

    And the most deeply offended on that point – I’m sorry – happen to be the most deeply involved in the racket. And given the access these Independents have long had now, to the material of top technical minds like David Mayo, Dennis Stephens, and Alan Walter – among other veterans sometimes posting around – it remains demonstrably in many cases, a racket. It depends upon indoctrinated people coming out of the church (some sheltered from the truly Free zone, in Independent cliques), staying indoctrinated and imprisoned by belief.

    Most people don’t even know that alternative packages of auditing technology even exist, since you are not allowed to bring it up almost anywhere.

    Need I add that very, very few new people are brought in under this scheme, and almost none given an inexpensive way to experience processing or co-processing?

    As to earlier comments that there is nothing “good” to be taken from Scientology at all, which is the Tony Ortega party line (eagerly cheered on by the church monopoly – RTC and OSA) – well, that is simply not true or honest.

    In order to get around that, the line is that we, the high-IQ people seeking answers, are “more easily hypnotized” or worse, complete fools and in agreement with cultic abuse.

    Scientology as found at the ground level is not nearly the toxic package that people have overly feared – if taken at face value without the hidden data lines and without the easily dispensed-with handful of “power-to-the-power” and “destroy utterly” references. RonsOrgs people demonstrate that for the most part (though I am not at all saying they have extricated themselves from those same Sci-Fi dimensions which still hold a certain fanaticism – though less malignant – in place).

    Some may yet have the vision and skill set to extricate those things of value in the subject without going off and forming yet another psychotherapy cult (Avatar, Eckenkar, et al) in the process. This remains to be seen.

    TIR (Traumatic Incident Reduction) quietly accomplished something of this nature for the psychology community long ago already, though they don’t get up to handling fixed ideas very quickly. Knowledgism does work on fixed ideas and teaches the simple technique for handling those, earlier in the line-up than most.


    Thanks for coming out and saying this Marty:
    “Anyone who advocates a more objective, intelligent discussion on Scientology is quickly labelled and treated as an enemy by ASC members.”

    Could we add to that the Class VIIIs and “OTs” who are busily nattering about Marty in other places – many of whom are guilty of withholding the vital information that would lead to rapid dissolution of the above-defined “racket” – and who ruthlessly quash discussion of “fixing” Scientology since KSW prevents that (thus ironically adhering to the same exact “enemy line” of their extremist opposition)…

    “It CAN’T Be Fixed!”

  59. Very interesting story. Many people were raised with religion and it did not handicap them. And Mormons I consider among the brightest.

    1.have a particular opinion, belief, or idea about someone or something. one’s mind toward someone or something; use one’s mind actively to form connected ideas.

    It is mathematical addition and subtraction of various values you must weight, when you do “not know”. In effort to “know”.

    There is no right or wrong way to think.

    Thinking, that your thinking process is off, just brings you into more “not know” and self doubt.

    Nobody can teach you how to “think”, or to “think better”, or to be a “critical thinker” or a “hopeful thinker” or a “positive thinker” or any of these other VALUES others assign to your thinking.Your math inclinations can not be altered by others. Their ideas about your thinking, are their OWN ideas and values and thinking,. Because they DO NOT KNOW. So they “think” too.

    Religion does not make people unaware or stupid. Organized religion is agreed upon policies. Nothing more. We live in a country where children are told to stay out of bars if they are ten years old. So they do not go in and see. That does not make them stupid. It just makes them sober.

    Most people involved in organized religion have never had a religious experience, or a supernatural experience. They just have rules of conduct, and hope. An understanding of consequences. An open mind about potentials.

    crit·i·cal think·ing
    the objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgment.

    Do you know who peddles themselves as a critical thinker? Not an objective person.

    What can a person really know? Only what has been true for them. So everyone’s extent of knowledge, stops at their own forehead.

    Everything Tony Ortega claims to “know” about Scientology, is parked in a folder marked “attitudes” behind his right ear. And he spews this out as “knowledge” and gets other people to “think” with it. He is peddling gossip, rumors, attitudes and dirty laundry, as Scientology and praising himself as an expert.

    He had the audacity to float this banner across his blogs for years:

    “Learn about Scientology with our numerous series with experts…”

    He might as well be selling bags of sand off the back of a truck and telling people it is sugar.

    Whatever anyone else did or is doing, this does not make him a value anywhere, to anyone, unless it is his landlord via rent check. It is a con, he is a con.


  60. Drummer in the motorcycle helmet kickin it on the clear Ludwig Vistalite kit till the very end!


  61. Yah. Although I certainly agree with FBM when he asks if there’s evidence or proof- he has scorched some people on ESMB pretty badly.

    But he doesn’t approve of critics being criticized.

    I suggest that the stuff about people viewing others on “op terms” might actually be one of those occasions where Hubbard, in his best stopped clock style, was right.

    People are op terming each other when what really matters is that Darth Midget is stopped.

  62. Absolutely beyond ridiculous!

  63. This was the last of what appears to have been, my parting comment at ESMB – a weak appeal to look at a glaring inconsistency:

    “Note that not all of us love Hubbard around here. Not even all of us love Ken, the Pilot. But whether you do or not, The Pilot struck a mighty blow at the RTC monopoly of the Tek, and I have trouble seeing why it would hurt you or anyone else, for us to further that with our humble little group here. ” – Watchful Navigator

    FreeBeingMe was just following the party line —
    ASC/OSA “strategy”— Attack the Tek and anyone practicing it out here — and in so doing —

  64. Brian and Foremost,

    In answer to the question, “Does Mike’s blog represent what you [meaning Marty] are talking about?” the poster My 2 Cents expressed my exact sentiments with the following comment that he just posted on Mike’s today.
    My 2 Cents says
    October 5, 2016 at 7:37 pm

    Mike, I am not trying to convince [names two people] of anything. I know they are beyond reach. What I’ve been trying to do is expose them so they have less effect on your other readers.

    These two and a few others have filled up your blog comments section with so much altered-to-worsen propaganda that in its volume, frequency, and repetitiveness it amounts to the same kind of mind control brainwashing they complain about the Church doing.

    You have allowed so much of this in the name of free speech that a person coming to your blog to get data with which to do a doubt formula will inevitably get a negatively skewed view of Scientology philosophy and tech even outside the Church.

    I have no objection to the true negative facts about the Church, the tech, and LRH personally being discussed in a rational, balanced, truth-seeking fashion. But your blog has for quite a while now been imbalanced.

    I particularly object to the “everybody knows” ridicule that has I am sure driven away most readers who have benefited from the tech and would like to find a way to filter out the bad and move forward with the good. The comments by Marildi, Cindy, and a couple of others attest to the need for someone to do what I have done with my comments.

    However, since you’ve asked, I’ll not let my exchanges with . . . et. al. run so long, and I’ll avoid countering their ad hominems with ones of my own.

    In reply:

    Mike Rinder says
    October 5, 2016 at 11:02 pm

    “However, since you’ve asked, I’ll not let my exchanges with Wynski, Brian, et. al. run so long, and I’ll avoid countering their ad hominems with ones of my own.”

    Appreciated. And I hope the “other side” takes heed as well.

    BTW, my blog is not “unbalanced” because of some filtering of comments. It is reflection of the views of those who read and decide to comment. Nothing more, nothing less.

    I am happy for anyone who has found comfort, happiness or enlightenment from scientology. I am also happy for those who feel they have found the same by leaving scientology. Neither is more right nor more wrong than the other. My purpose is to expose the abuses that are meted out at the hands of scientology and to expose the lies that are used to keep people from thinking for themselves.

  65. “Ortega publically denounced Levin for “carrying water” for Scientology.”… {some of you might know that} Tony banned me from commentating on the Bunker (IMO he couldn’t handle the fact that another ‘never-in’ blogger was getting serious traffic and Google news alerts (the Bunker never did… though I did see one recently) coupled with the occasional times I mentioned that I got emails from media outlets asking for “info” obviously stuck in his craw. His ego obviously hated the daily links I posted to my blog so much so that he actually asked other commentators to start an argument with me where he could ban me [this is true and admitted by numerous commentators there]… but I digress, back to TMZ… I was one of the those that actually saw Harvey Levin act on Miscaviges’s behest [obviously guessing here, but a good guess IMO] in real time. The article in question was first posted using David Miscaviges’s name as “leader of the church of scientology” but was soon removed to just read a church spokesman or something – I actually took screen grabs as proof and made a point of tweeting TMZ and Levin to this affect.

    tl:dr version – Levin removed Miscavige’s name from this article pretty damn quickly… you have to question why, eh?

  66. Thank you Alanzo. I do still agree with 90% of what you say. You are a smart guy.

  67. I see what you are saying, and I agree with you 100%. I mean, there are Kardashian culties, Beiber culties etc. It is a little bit different with this anti-Scientology stuff though. Because it is people who were in a speaking against a cult…but still acting like they’re in a cult. If that makes sense?

  68. To say “the Outer Banks kicked Scott Gordon out for revealing to [Virginia] what goes on behind closed doors” is a half truth. Characterizing the reasons for his removal as you have omits the important fact that Scott was removed for violating the rules of the group. The members of the FB group have an expectation of privacy. What Scott did was in violation of the rules. Scott is fully aware of this, and he admitted it to me. Members of the secret group do not wish to have their comments leaked. What Scott did (by passing screen shots) was a betrayal of trust.

  69. Ron
    It’s hard to handle the flood of truth over the lies we were taught – it is overwhelming.

    Here is what I recommend. Look at your wins and gains for what they were.

    The part about everyone clapping for you after your wins and speeches? Group feel-good, mostly.

    But the mechanical shifts in thinking and perspective while getting repetitive processing, or in coming to present time in TRs? Real, and as real as you want to keep them.

    In my opinion, auditing changes – accelerates – karma – the natural processing of life experience. You look at things deeply that you’d ordinarily only process lightly in dreamstates and watching movies that match your more emotionally stressful experiences. The level of concentration and focus on mental barriers that can be achieved in auditing aren’t found in many other experiences (I’m not saying they can’t be attained in other ways, since that would be lying).

    If you are still of the belief that we go on forever and can only grow and evolve and make the best of it, well then auditing probably helped (if you look this over for yourself and see what it did to your life). (That’s auditing minus the church and the registration and ethics cycles, of course.)

    If you are of the belief that we’re just mud and circuitry, well then, you in auditing merely played around with that circuitry, and while it might have fixed some things for a while, it won’t make any difference once you are gone from this life forever.

    Sure, some parts of Scientology were “hypnosis” – we did what Ron said and tried to match his expectations because we thought he was great and by the laws of ARC we wanted to agree. But did we learn in the courseroom and learn in the auditing session, in ways that improved our experience of living? Did we get rid of lifelong mental blocks we could never seem to get past with other methods and despite all efforts?

    Many say yes to these last.

    Keep in mind that others invalidating what you experienced depends on hypnosis (your agreement) – just as much as what they might assert was the reason you “felt better.”

    But repetitive processing is a LOOK-PROCESS-TELL-REALIZE sequence that is mechanical, does not depend on hypnosis (try “journaling” a simple process solo, sometime) and can and does result in unblocking or in re-evaluating areas of life that can then be seen to improve in the objective world around you.

    Good auditing is good philosophy plus good therapy. The philosophy might need some fixes, and the therapy is as good as the therapist. But overall I would say, it beats most anything else out there.

    But of course, you have to work this out for yourself.

    Feelings come and go. Life has its ups and downs – even without suppressives around, it still does. But real mental shifts towards lasting improvement in outlook and ability do not come easy in living, and it’s possible that auditing does give one the advantage of making those shifts faster and with less pain (other than financial “pain” if you are not co-auditing).

    So you have to look at your own growth experience and changes and make them and keep them, your own.

    Scientology changed my life for the better in dramatic ways. Then one day the whole thing came down in disaster. Ron’s ethics policies demanded I couldn’t quit Scientology peacefully and just let my wife continue on her own volition. No, I had to be forced to demonstrate loyalty or my wife couldn’t continue auditing. All of this written into the ethics policies in the ethics book, whether Disconnection is canceled or not – doesn’t matter – it’s all there.

    But I used auditing to straighten all that out. Auditing does not work only in the church or because Ron said so. It works mechanically by getting a person to LOOK-PROCESS-TELL-REALIZE. Some kinds work better than others (the best kinds were sequestered for financial gain, and for building up the very monopoly warned about in unedited PDC #20, and all that despite the assurance of Jan. 1965 – just before issuance of KSW#1 – “My Philosophy” – that secrecy wasn’t part of the program and that the technology belongs to those who will use it to better themselves and others).

    I used other things and new knowledge too, so don’t get me wrong, you’ll not see me joining any religion again.

    But – and here may be the next step people are going to have to confront if they want something good to happen with what they know is good about it. No more religion. No new religion. No more following L. Ron Hubbard without question.

    Spiritual Counseling is permissible in most states (check your laws) so you may not even need a license to Help. You certainly don’t need a new “church” or “religious 501c.”

    You’re welcome to join me and a few others doing what I did. I fired Ron as my guru. In fact, I had to invent a new ethics condition to assign him, for the depth of his betrayal (joke – “Treason” works out just nicely).

    I go with what is good and decent and that I can see works well with myself and others. I’m totally willing to (and do) cast aside anything coercive, harmful or authoritarian.

    I’m not willing however, just because I got hurt badly playing around with the organization, to lie to myself and invent like others apparently do – that I was just fooling myself that I got dramatic gains and life changes from Scientology and Dianetics auditing.

  70. Only yourself.


  71. I remember the first time I ever read comments on YouTube. I couldn’t believe how rude, intolerant and downright disgusting people were. But I reassure myself that this is the internet where anything goes. Where some get their jollies being an identity, a character, than an actual human being. Others become addicted to exploring the darkest corners of their personalities. A fetish. An outlet for emotions and tomfoolery not suited to the “real world” of face-to-face interaction. I tell myself that the majority of these commentators wouldn’t behave like this in person and are probably lovely. And that I shouldn’t give up on mankind just because of YouTube.

    A blog will never replace a living room, a garden, a pub, coffee house, restaurant, office, church, or anywhere else humans can meet and debate the world around them. It’s just a substitute.

  72. You wrote, “Mark Plummer posted this 15 years ago.” Yet none of the words quoted above were written by me!

  73. From Tony’s blog welcome page:

    “Tony Ortega is a journalist who was formerly the editor of The Village Voice. He’s written about Scientology since 1995”.

    What the __ __ __ __? He wrote one piece in 1995! A few more ten years later! He started writing daily about four years ago. He translates this into “He has written about it since 1995”?? Or, He has written about it for over 20 years!

    Hey Tony, did you know I have written about , the impoverished of London since 1972? Yeah, on a school book report! So, yeah, I have been writing about this since 1972!

    I took some piano lessons when I was eight! Do you know how long I have been playing piano? Damn!

    I picked up a needle and thread when I was 12. I have been sewing a LONG time huh Tony?

    The first time I cooked something I was 8 years old! Do you know how long I have been a cook? Longer than Bobby Flay!!!!

    The first time I flew on an airplane I was 18 months old. Do you know how long I have been traveling?? No wonder I’m exhausted!!

    Tony, the first time I performed for an audience, I was seven years old. Class was full. It was show and tell and I had nothing to show or tell. So I performed. Sang a song for my third grade teacher. She instantly ran to get the second and third grade teachers, they left their class rooms! She had me sing the same song for them. STANDING OVATION! Do you have any idea how long I have been performing for a full house to standing ovations? Lord Have Mercy! Bet you’re dying t know what the song was right Tony? Huh? Not so much? Oh well, moving on.

    Tony, the first time I wrote a letter, I was seven years old. Do you know how long I have been writer? WoW!

    Hey! I had to represent a client in small claims court, in 1993. Only as their property management agent, but HEY! Do you know how long I have representing people in the court room? Since 1993!.

    Tony, I like your way of thinking! The math is somewhat nebulous but, it is in the words isn’t it?

    The fact that you have been writing about Scientology for 21 years is marvelous Tony. You know, Hubbard took some time off, a lot actually. For research and so on, so, actually you have been writing about Scientology longer than L. Ron Hubbard did!! And, you managed to do it with out one glossary attached to one piece of work!!

    Well,… dang Superman! No wonder you have a bigger following than the Church of Scientology!

  74. Do you know what Tony Ortega has on his Wikipedia page? With regards to his knowledge about Scientology organizations?

    ” No one is better positioned to write the book on that organization”. Said by the who? Editor of the Village Voice?

    I guess that was before anyone introduced Lawrence Wright or Janet Reitman to society?

    Listen, even Wikipedia is nauseated with his self promotion and begging for someone else, anyone else, to add to his bio there:

    “This biographical article relies too much on references to primary sources. Please improve this biographical article by adding secondary or tertiary sources”.

    You know what is going to be on his bio one day? .A movie about him!

    Listen, all the bullshit that went down at the Village Voice while he was there? The sex trafficing, the activists, the protesters and law suits. This was HUGE. Why do you think Tony did not leave the Village Voice, and write a book about that? Hmmmmm? Any guesses? What does he like to accuse others of?


    Payola definition, a secret or private payment in return for the promotion of a product, service, etc., through the abuse of one’s position, influence, or facilities.

    How much did Tony receive to pack up his desk and move it on over and keep his mouth shut? In fact, did part of his payout include NOT REPORTING for mainstream papers? Just in case he wanted to use some Village Voice madness as a “scoop”? I noticed he hasn’t been called to testify or has he offered to testify in any law suits.

    How could he have gotten around these clauses and remained “relevant”, at the same time? And, always riding a shotgun with his web master and lawyer?

    Well, how long do these contracts usually run? Five years. Exactly.

    So what can he do to be in the limelight and cultivate a career?

    Apparently, run headlines over several months accusing Monique Rathbun, of payola.. Position himself with celebrities, film makers. Get himself on television for potential broadcasting positions.

    Yeah Babe, he took payola. of course, that is just my uneducated guess.

  75. Payola is also accepting money or donations, to broadcast specified music, or news reports.

    On May 9, 1960, Alan Freed was indicted for accepting $2,500 which he claimed was a “token of gratitude” and did not affect airplay.

    And aren’t the donations to Tony, a “token of gratitude”? But why would he owe someone a “favor” to publish on command, if he had no awareness of a debt owed to them through these, “tokens of gratitude”?

    Well, I will just have to keep checking with my tipsters and numerous legal observers to ensure I get this scoop straight!

  76. First, a question for the trolls: if Mark is now back in OSA or sold out to DM for big bux, why are those “who is Marty Rathbun” smear sites still up?

    Second: Mark, I’m not 100% sure whether this is relevant to this particular post, but I REALLY think you’d appreciate this blog post – and, pretty much, anything else Brad Warner writes:

    “As long as there are sociopaths who want to be leaders there is an endless supply of folks who want to be led.

    A lone sociopath is no real threat to anyone. But we don’t always leave them alone, now, do we? Not when we think we might get something for our services.”

  77. If your theory (or should I say “smear”) were true, why did Mark publicly disassociate from the “Indie” community he was instrumental in founding, as long ago as 2013?

  78. So the argument is: it is impossible to do any serious harm via blogging? You can be mean and negative towards others on your blog, smear them, fantasise about their destruction, etc, and it’s okay because it has no consequences? Then you must not have watched the Gamergate fiasco which has ruined the lives of several women, almost as efficiently as Scientology ruined Paulette Cooper’s.

  79. This is the Galileo gambit. Galileo was persecuted, but he was proved right; however, being persecuted doesn’t MAKE you right. Similarly: satirists and trolls have done some good for society. But being a satirist and/or a troll doesn’t mean you’re doing any good. You could just be an asshole, poking a caged animal with a stick and guffawing.

  80. Marcel Wenger

    Not just stepping back, Windhorse, Chris is getting some auditing!
    which is what most who stepped back don’t do. They don’t, most stop looking at anything LRH said, they just read what he supposedly did or did not do, or who he was or wasn’t.
    My hope is that when ALL has been said, some will wonder, what the commotion was all about and maybe come to realize once again, that Scientology is a workable system.
    And that the Tech. and the Church are two separate things.
    Marcel Wenger

  81. Marcel Wenger

    Good on you, Chris!
    P.S. Always like you comments.
    Marcel Wenger

  82. Let me just set out my own little stall, if anyone’s interested.

    I am still very opposed to the Church of Scientology as an authoritarian, high-pressure, parasitic organization. But, as Mark found in his experiences in the “Indie” community, you don’t NEED an organization for people to act in nasty, cultish ways. Normal human tendencies towards forming groups and then policing the boundaries of that group will do that. Hell, the smallest cult in the world is an abusive domestic relationship – a cult with one abuser and one abusee. The biggest one can be an entire country – eg North Korea.

    I think Tony Ortega about 80% of the time does the good work. But his fanclub are nasty and getting nastier, and that has always been the case for some on the fringes of a.r.s./ESMB/WWP etc – particularly the ones who want to “wipe out Scientology” altogether, not just neutralize the Co$. I have watched for more than 10 years these people target harmless Freezoners/Indies who were minding their own business. The only reason they didn’t cause as much damage as OSA as that they weren’t being paid to do so full-time.

    Being an anti-ANYTHING enthusiast, in short, is very dangerous. “Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster”.

  83. I’ll accept that you’re asking a sincere question, Brian. But I would also mention that there are SOME people who seem keen to pick a fight between Mark and Mike. Some people in the comments of Mike’s blog slandering Mark and asking Mike to comment. Ortega nastily referring to Mike as Mark’s “former pal”. Personally I really don’t think this line of questioning will make anyone any happier.

  84. “was it all fake?”


    ”did I mocked up my wins on bridge”

    No. But that’s what people who would like to discredit everything in Scientology – for their own reasons or purposes – would like you and others to think.

    ”would I have been the same happy person now if I didn’t knew scn?”

    Maybe, maybe not. You might have found another way to move on up a little higher. But it was Scientology that you found, and you got what you got out of it.

    My opinions. Go with your own knowingness on these things.

  85. So lets just make the claim and not back it up? Nice logic. You’re more full of hot air than anyone on here.

  86. While it is personal to many here, the Ortega comment section cabal is behaving predictably like that of a “reality” reporting blog in decline. Whether Scientology, Real Housewives, or the 2016 election – the cycle is the same. Breathless revelations that expose a fraud or insider story, then commenters that find common ground,share an interest. Comment sections becomes meeting place/community of the like-minded – benign and supportive at first, then taken over by zealots who run off any that question the group think. The number of comments still keep the blogger in ad revenue, but the number of unique commenters begins to decline. Content of comments section becomes daily check in’s by regulars, pet photos and “shoop” sharing, bad poetry and gossip. Fewer and fewer comments that ad anything to daily post -just a playground for the blogger’s regulars. An occasional event or news story causes a blip in new views and traffic, but soon it reverts back to a water cooler for the members.

    This is the life cycle of many blogs. I’ve witnessed same over 15 years of reading many. Not at all unique to Tony’s.

  87. Thank you for your views.

  88. And just a thought:

    I do not label any of the posters. I do not give them a name like ASC, troll, SP etc.

    My view is that everyone is really just communicating from their experience. Everyone is trying to be heard. Everyone’s view is valid within the scope of their understanding. That includes me.

    Those that disagree with one’s view is given a negative label. A personal attack.
    Those that agree with one’s views are enlightened, intelligent and a good person.

    Binary thinking is a very popular default conversation style.

    Conversation between two people who disagree is a great place to practice neutralizing the pairs of opposites.

    Those who are successful in this neutralization maintain respect for other human beings.

    Those that fail in this process of discriminating intelligence, feel elevated by chopping off others heads.

    It’s easy to chop off heads. Not so easy to have good control in our own heads.

    Just some morning thoughts over coffee.

  89. Very interesting, tampafan.

    Tony announced a milestone on his blog last week: 1.5 million comments.

    Your post puts that in perspective.


  90. Doloras wrote:

    ““Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster”


  91. Well Ron, I reckon it’s like me sitting down to have lunch with a friend, recently remarried, and hear her say, “My first husband? No, I never loved really loved him.”

    You want to fall off your chair.

    Maybe a person’s recollection of their wins or gains is proportional to their ability to stay in love. Sometimes magical moments can be a very, heavy burden.

  92. Hi, Mark. There’s way too much twisting of motives in the comments on this blog post. When I read Virginia”s comments, I thought, hey that doesn’t sound right. Glad you came here and set ’em straight.


  93. I don’t bully and degrade people to obtain my knowledge. And nobody here is selling you anything for you to demand a demonstration of product.

  94. Ortega referring to Mike as Marty’s “former pal”?

    Who are his former pals? Meanwhile, Tony Ortega is so desperate for friends, he has been parked on a Facebook page with Ray Jeffries and several former members of the Apollo. His ONLY friends are people that have explored Scientology.

    And anyone that doesn’t want to suck his dick is quickly banned from the circle. I’m sorry, there is something very perverse about that situation. The demand domination and compliance within that harem is a sizzler!

  95. And all of your comments / actions are different from Ortega and his commenters how?

  96. I meant, the demand for domination and compliance within that Harem is a sizzler.

    And the fact that he has women, that watch him and even prompt and applaud him, to fair game other women, and even children, is repelling to me.

    This idea that if you are a female or a child, and you are connected to Scientology in some way, you are fair game for abuse, is the same as people turning the other way watching this Muslim woman getting abused.

    Some of the women are still in the mindset of a culture that is ancient.

  97. thx, just needed someone to confirm!

  98. If not downright misogynistic. Women can be the worst misogynists. Especially ones that spent a lot of time in the Sea Org or grew up in that atmosphere.

    The hatred I received in that place for wearing a piece of jewelry, lipstick, running to a beauty salon or even to a dentist to get my teeth cleaned was BIZARRE.

    Being feminine was “PTS to the middle class”. “being a body or worshipping bodies”. What the fuck was strutting around in lanyards and medals? Stripes and little daggers? UGLY UGLY UGLY men’s clothing and shoes? Nasty little white shorts with matching shirts that made you look like you were working the pool deck at Caesar’s Palace in Las Vegas?

    All the while sucking up to celebs at CC INT totally PTS to the upper class. To the “upper rank”.

    And this has bled out here into the fabric of social intercourse. It is fine to smack women around and suck up to someone you think has higher “rank”. And “rank” is organized on the forums, Facebook pages, and on Tony’s blog IT IS THICK. As in, “You don’t have the rank to ask that question”. Or, You don’t have the rank to leave that comment”. He dramatizes it worse than Tommy Davies!!

    Rank me, when you feel my foot on the back of your teeth Tony. In the meantime, wait.

  99. Oracle:

    You may not remember me, but you were one of about three people in total in many many many years, the only people I have ever felt comfortable and safe enough to have ‘talked’ to, albeit it was quite a long time ago.

    I’ve always liked you, felt safe to converse with you even if only digitally, and admired what you had to share, and viewpoints you had to give, and stories you had to tell, in that previous ex-so yahoo group which I have long since lost my password to.

    I still like you, however I do not understand all this nonsense and drama that is going on, (as Bernie would say) ‘dividing us up’. Those of us who have taken those scary first steps, those of us who have reached out to find something / someone to talk to, to try to make sense of what they experienced, went through, saw others go through.

    I enjoy reading this blog, Mr. Rinder’s Blog, ESMB, and pretty much anything I can absorb in regard to the subject because I am still recovering from my time in the Sea Org. I am still at risk of disconnection from family. I am still learning every day about the world, about myself.

    On ESMB I enjoy the Hauki thread. I enjoy being able to talk about things under a safer avatar. I enjoy finding out the latest news on protests or yes, even ‘celebrity’ gossip. It’s a nice break from the otherwise regular work day.

    Just because I, or others may be a reader or poster on ESMB does not mean that I, or they even know what this ASC is… or are a member or support any actions of anyone trying to harm or out troll anyone to lump EVERYONE over there with this ASH is just bullshit.

    There are very likely many more like myself, who just absolutely do not get involved in any shit slinging, and are only there for their own therapeutic reasons.

    I’m also not saying there may be people who do post who may have been shitty to whoever about whatever, ok… yes.. that is kind of part and parcel to being on the internet.

    BUT…Please PLEASE, and this is for Marty too, Please don’t put ‘all’ us people who enjoy, and sometimes even NEED the ability to vent on ESMB, or in other places into one box. It’s just not right.

    I may not be as verbose as some posters, I am certainly not as Technical as many posters, but I am still me, and I do not support bullying from either side to any side.

    Thanks for letting me share this.

    -No One

  100. It’s not a smear, and People can change their minds. Full disclosure, I agree with Marty on the bunker. I thinks it’s a crappy tabloid on its best days. But for me, when I have read Marty’s last few posts, I get the vibe that he’s all in. He isn’t getting as upset over what’s being said about him, he’s getting more upset about the negative picture of Scientology that is ever increasingly painted everywhere you look.

    And I do agree with that, that there is nothing good about the cult of LRH. There can’t be enough negativity out there about the cult, Because there is nothing good about it.

  101. You agreed and supported what Tory said, very clear if anyone clicks on the link in the word “excerpted” and looks at that entire post of yours.

  102. Scott has already posted on this point, here at Mark’s blog. That is not being “hidden” as you imply. It doesn’t change what I said.

    Karen’s book-banning and enforced group-think, in my opinion, is why Scott chose to whistleblow like he did.

    It was quite brave of him.

  103. Hexagonal Thetan

    I’m from Italy and I quit from Scn 16 years ago.

    I learned many things about Ron, Scn and Miscavige (and David Mayo and many others) thanks to the Internet.
    All the things I learned made sense with what I observed as a Class V Auditor when I was inside. Even though here in Italy I was staff in a class V org I knew many Sea Org members (a couple were in Garrison Mission at my Org and others visited at regular times from the Management) and I saw how badly they were managed.

    Even we “normal” staff members occasionally were submitted to really harsh ethics handlings if we had low statistics. Fear of punishment was the most present emotion.

    I bought and read your “Memories of a Scientology warrior” book and I found it very instructive.

    I currently read ALL the forums about Scn (although I very rarely post in the english ones) and I find them very instructive, despite the occasional flames here and there or the excessive Jing&Ding by someone.

    But here something had changed. I don’t know what it is going behind the scenes and probably it’s not my business, but I saw a surprising 180° turn.

    Now when I read the regulars posters on this forum it seems to me that they are avoiding 4 important points:

    1) the LRH advanced tech and the OT levels don’t works (to put it mildly) as he stated. But We know that source himself admitted his failure to handle his demons at the end of his life.
    2) OSA did – and it is still doing – nasty black ops. But we know that they always occurred from the own voice/books of this blog owner and from many others.
    3) In present time the people trapped inside Scn (particularly in the Sea Org) are constantly harassed, reduced to slavery and threatened with potential disconnections from family members.
    4) The church use the big money that reaps from naive followers to build empty cathedrals – that then become church properties … bye bye to your money – and to pay PI to harass real or perceived enemies

    Given the harassment that Marty (and many others) suffered from the CoS hands still in recent times I find strange that the blog main theme had shifted from “How bad/wrong is the Cos and how can we stop its abuses?” to “How bad are TO and the J&Ds at ESMB? “.

    Yes it is healthy to overcome anger, revenge, blame and all these negative emotions. But you don’t handle a Mafia organization only by thinking nice thoughts or – worst – by attacking Mafia’s enemies (with anger, revenge and blame) . You need to expose the truth about that Mafia Organization UNTIL its mafioso behaviour stops.

    But you now stopped doing it and I don’t understand why.

  104. I can’t speak for other people, but I didn’t spend four months trying to prove that Tony Ortega’s WIFE was part of a conspiracy to defraud lawyers at the behest of David Miscavige.

  105. I seriously doubt that anyone who is capable of reading my comment there was confused about that it was Tory’s words that I excerpted and that you were responding to – that’s why I included this:

    Mark – agreeing with Tory’s points, 15 years ago – Excerpted

    In article , (Mistmagoo55) wrote: ….


    If you want to now clarify that you *weren’t* agreeing with and supporting what Tory said – by all means, go ahead, but my comment wasn’t addressed to you, it was addressed to that vicious little troll “freebeing”.

    Karen’s book-banning, black pr and fair game practices are alive and well in Outer Banks.

    Other members of that group are sickened by what they saw go on there during the last few weeks or so. Just how many people is the Outer Banks admin group (composed of Kathy Mace/AnonyMary, Karen, you, etc.) willing to turn against them in their unsubstantiated vendettas?

    Apparently, a lot.

    The ASC is a good name that Mark came up with.


  106. This is what Mark said in response to what I quoted Tory on, it is more easily visible if one looks at the original alt.religion.scientology post here.

    Mark Plummer, answering Tory –

    “Yes. And here are some bits of Hubbard’s “tech” on how to covertly
    spread lies in an attempt to destroy a person’s reputation. This is
    a “common tool” frequently used by Scientology’s Office of Special
    Affairs in “seeking to destroy real or fancied enemies or seek
    dominance in some field”.

    Note that Hubbard wrote: “It inevitably results in injustices being
    done by those who operate without verifying the truth.”

    We have seen anonymous Scientologists on a.r.s. exactly apply this
    facet of Hubbard’s “tech” for years: “Black Propaganda is in its
    technical accuracy, a COVERT OPERATION where unknown authors publicly effect a derogatory reaction and then remain unknown.”


    Exactly what goes on with Karen behind closed doors.

    Why doesn’t Karen (or Tony Ortega) PUBLICLY state what she did about Mike and his book?

    For one thing, because she doesn’t want to bring attention to it.


    Not for the reasons she states privately and that Scott revealed to me. (see my post)

    Since Karen looks to want it to be believed that she is some kind of expert on Mike’s book –

    Karen De La Carriere to Scott Gordon Outer Banks November 2015

    “Please do not link Mike Mclaughry’s hallucinations and delusions to this group. Whilte he might have a nugget of truth here and there, he has so much fantasy and lunatic fringe ramblings, that it is not for this group.”

    “Scientology Inc is bad enough with enough truthful stories without going off the deep end into rubbish, Tony Ortegs is the reference point. If Tony never quotes Mike McCiaughry you can bet there is a good reason.”


    Therefore, it seems fitting that we challenge Karen HERSELF to refute, point-by-point, Mike’s rough-draft chapters in his Scientology Roots book that deal with Hubbard’s lifelong intelligence career – which is what Scott Gordon originally posted about there when she jumped on him.

    Chapter 9-1

    Chapter 9-2

    Karen can take one point at a time in comments to those pages, and once it is verified that it is really her, Mike will answer.


  107. Good one!


  108. “His ego obviously hated the daily links I posted to my blog so much so that he actually asked other commentators to start an argument with me where he could ban me [this is true and admitted by numerous commentators there]…”

    Whut? Oh man, that’s disgusting.

    I bet ASC royalty – Karen – was involved in that somehow.

    Sorry that happened to you.

    You think Ortega would have the cajones to just ban you outright without all the dicking around, but apparently not. He’s too busy being worried about his “image”.


  109. It’s ye old “sub-understanding” at work – as documented by the Jesuits.

    Example from Esch. Theol. Moral. Tract I, *Escobar, as cited in The Novitiate by Andrew Steinmetz, 1846 –

    “A man may swear to a robber that he will give his money, without intending to give it; using this mental reservation, I will give it if I am bound.

    A guilty wife, being asked by her husband if she has sinned against him,* may swear negatively; conceiving in her mind a different day to the one on which she committed the crime.”


  110. “But, as Mark found in his experiences in the “Indie” community, you don’t NEED an organization for people to act in nasty, cultish ways. ”

    No building, tax exemption, or signs necessary.

  111. Go ahead – list the differences and similarities but please be precise.

  112. I think he is secretly in love with you Oracle. For a six-year old, this is how they show it. Expect more mud-balls. lol

  113. Bait and Badger is also , well, ancient technology.

  114. Members of the secret group expect secrecy? At least, half of those people were just added without even being asked to join! They are not secretive about anything, and some even have their own Facebook pages. The ones I know personally tell me they would not turn against Marty in a million years and some of them didn’t even notice they had been added to the page!

    Let’s keep it real folks! It is NOT the INT BASE of Facebook! Laughter!

    “Three can keep a secret, if two of them are dead”. Benjamin Franklin

  115. Mark – although perhaps off-topic (or maybe not) I wanted to present a document that I came across that names people that were government intelligence personnel involved in Scientology, because I’d like to hear from anyone who may have relevant, accurate information concerning any of the names on that list, for a Library article I am preparing.

    Dox – Scott Mayer Was A CIA Agent – Cover Name Homer Mitchell Spence

    If anyone reading this does have information please leave a comment at the above post, and if you don’t want the comment published just include a note to that effect.


  116. (thread too long no reply button showing for me) @ Mark Plummer.

    I think you may be operating under the idea that I re-posted your post, that has quotes from Tory, to illustrate that you are some kind of “bad guy”.

    You couldn’t be more wrong.

    I do not think that. I think you are a man who is decent at heart.

    I presented that post both to illustrate THAT point (and your views on scientology black pr techniques) and to further illustrate what you had been asked to do, by Karen, to Scott Gordon, rather than HER doing it herself.

    She used you, BECAUSE you are known to be a nice guy.

    I am sickened that she involved you in her vendetta because of her cowardice about her “image”.

    I feel it was an intentional perversion attempt against your decent, core values that I am not in doubt that you have.


  117. I have another example for you. When there was a plane crash at the movie set of ‘Mena’ where two pilots lost their lives, some comments at the bunker seemed upset that Tom Cruise was not killed in the crash, and proceeded to make jokes about how Tom couldn’t stop the crash with his powers. I found it disrespectful to use a tragedy like that just to mock him, and it belittles the tragic loss to the pilots. Yes, Tom Cruise deserves all the hate, and has done terrible things, but not to the point where we wish he dies in a plane crash. Its too extreme.

  118. Thank You AV. And good points.

  119. I don’t think there is moral equivalence between someone who “disconnects” from a sociopath for self-preservation (and protection) and someone cutting themselves off from family and friends who love them because of a religious or philosophical divergence of opinion. Don’t see the comparison as a fair one, sorry.

  120. Virginia: You wrote, “I think you may be operating under the idea that I re-posted your post, that has quotes from Tory…”. On October 5 at 5:11 pm, you did write, ““Mark Plummer posted this 15 years ago.” Then you posted words that Tory wrote. I am operating under no such misconception as you suggest. Rather, I am merely pointing out that the words you posted were Tory’s words from 15 years ago.

    As for your allegation or feeling that I was used, this is incorrect. There is no vendetta. As I have already stated, Scott was removed for violating the terms of the group. “Black PR” is/was not a factor in the decision to remove him. His betrayal of trust is/was the sole reason.

  121. Marty, I am definitely appreciative of your efforts…sometimes when one rolls in this kind of territory a lot of good goes overlooked I suppose. You helped me get my head out of the way of thinking I adopted and look at all the other options we have in life, which are denied in scn. Too many to list. I know you didn’t post this for praise or acknowledgement but here’s a little anyway. I thank you and wish you and the family all the best!

  122. Thank goodness for The Oracle. Keeping it real.

  123. The Oracle wrote, “Members of the secret group expect secrecy?”

    Yes. It is a policy of the group. People who betray their agreements and violate the trust placed in them are removed.

  124. They are. Most of the time, but not always.

  125. ““How bad/wrong is the Cos and how can we stop its abuses?” to “How bad are TO and the J&Ds at ESMB? “.”

    Perhaps this will help. It’s not a shift. It’s a CONNECTION.


  126. I understand that. But my post was to make it clear that the words you posted — not the linked article — were Tory’s words.

  127. Yep. These so-called “critics” have been trying to Fair Game my husband. See my post .

    And it was Scott Gordon that stood up for him and I and took action – just like he did with you.

  128. Amen to that. Ann something-or-other (Ex-Go woman – who I hear were the worst of the worst that way) tried to corner me in a public bathroom at AOLA when I first went there to do my lower OT levels (as a public person).

    She tried to intimidate me about my youthful clothing, my makeup, and even told me that I “smelled like coconut” and *that* was an EXTREME violation of policy and she was going to personally see that I was sent to ethics!

    I was only in my 20’s at the time, young and enjoying it. I certainly wasn’t dressed like some kind of slut or anything though, but to listen to her you’d think I was one step from plying my wares on Hollywood blvd.

    After she did her tirade, I basically said something like thank you, advice from one’s elders is always helpful, but as it happens I used to be in the Sea Org so I’m aware of the policies specifically written for Sea Org members only that don’t in any way apply to the public. And then I walked out. The look on her face…boy. Wished I had a camera.

  129. The problem isn’t the “cult of LRH”. That’s just as ignorant of a characterization as what goes on in the Church ie: “LRH the Hero”.

    The problem is that an intelligence front-group was made and utilized for trying out behavior modification techniques using Hubbard as the front man.

    Some of the techniques were actually not necessarily completely bad ideas, but they were stolen from other places and twisted into something very different than what they could have been.

    I think Scott Gordon is right about some of what he says about people *can* be helped by some aspects, but only when free of all twists and influences.

    And no, I’m not a scientologist. I don’t do any Hubbard auditing or training processes nor do I recommend any *as such* at the moment.

    I would, however, recommend Mark or Scott if someone was so inclined, but that’s it.

    Why? Because they won’t lie to them or try to control them into what they think they should be – an ironclad requirement in my book.


  130. I like you marty. you’re a cool guy that doesn’t afraid of anything :D:D:D

  131. 99.9999999 % of anti Scientology people and Ex Scientology people are not bad, ill willed, ill purposed, demonic, sadistic or predatory creatures.

    We have ten to twenty people, that are.

    When you set up children as targets on a forum and giggle, the world is better off with out you. And Anne Lowe of Georgia sat on her ass and kept it propped up there until there was an uproar.

    When you stalk a woman across America with the media declaring her insane, unjust, and criminal, for no reason other than sadistic propensity, the world is better off with out you.

    Honest people have rights too. This is not even about Scientology, anti Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard or any other elusive figures. It is about predatory, psychopathic, demonic, sadistic, ill willed, ill purposed forms that manifest through bodies as humans.

    Should I support that and humor it? No. I don’t think so. The day I sit around viewing that as entertainment through the Internet, I hope someone chokes the life out of me.

    Stalking someone’s home and setting their child up as a target? Their wife?

    This evil is on par if not worse than anything I saw in the Church. Tony Ortega has more crimes against children and assaults to freak people out than the Church of Scientology ever did.

    I do not need to up mock one evil to out create another. And that is exactly what is happening with Tony Ortega and a handful of degenerates on ESMB that wouldn’t be fit to adopt an animal from the ASPCA. They are an evil that is being mocked up to overwhelm another evil. And part of their evil involves wallowing in sadism and injustice.

    It is like bringing in wasps to chase out bees. Meanwhile the entire orchard becomes infested and the fruit gets attacked and rots and a famine lays before us.

    I don’t have to tolerate the evil from either side. It goes both ways.

    Has nothing to do with Scientology, nothing. Has to do with fkn evil people.

  132. Speaking for myself, I never did any such thing as think or say ALL posters or readers of ESMB are {insert initials] and I highly doubt that was ever Oracle’s view either.

  133. The purpose of OUTER BANKS is to gather intel. Why do you think Tony Ortega and Ray Jeffries are parked there to observe, people prompted into conversations they usually would not be comfortable having, in front of an attorney or journalist? Why do you think your pretense has been requested, to give testimony in that group? Why are you being encouraged to be there and “share”? Not that anyone shouldn’t if they want to be heard and understood on that platform. But for the love of God be aware of the conditions and when you are being put somewhere because someone needs you for something.

  134. This is the same as people being told their “evil” is immigrants. So vote for a bigger evil “Trump” to deal with it.

    This is the same as the Germans being told their “evil” is Jewish people, so vote for a bigger evil “Hitler” to deal with it.

    At the end of the day, you are mocking up evil. Towards your fellow man. Who are NOT evil. Maybe one or two, not entire cultures and civilizations.

    People for the love of God wake up already!

  135. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    I’ve been reading the Blogs on a daily Basis for over 6-7 years now, it helped a lot for reflecting about myself and understanding my own past in Scientology.
    5 – 6 years ago we had great discussions , here on Marty’s blog and many very intelligent and decent People were visiting. Also there was lots of hope about perhaps getting some of the useful tech onto right tracks, but there was never any consent about what parts of the tech could still be useful, as so many different opinions existed as there were people writing about it.
    The chances about real thorough Exploration of some of the ideas of Hubbard, were just gone with the wind and were trashed in the trash bin of history. And peeple just left to live their life.

    Somehow, it is very sad that People with great ideas about helping and changing the world, giving their lives for it just gave up, fight each other and fully forget their initial hopes.

    This DREAM of Mankind, that many leader are using for heir own selfish purposes, I think, will be achieved the day when each Individual on this planet knows and understand he doesn’t need any leader for to think decently, but just has to do it.
    This was the main idea I was following in Scientology, but did’t understand that to become an responsible World Citizen one needs a thorough education- Scientology couldn’t deliver that, just some little fragments-.

    My theory is that more hateful, resentful and evil a Person is, less books she has read and less loving and caring family the Person has or had. Propably they’re still very sad about that Daddy or mum didn’t really love them or show their affection, and are still fighting to get this beautiful love and admiration of parents

    So lets care about People that really want to learn about decency.

  136. Do you know what Monique Rathbun did to pull in operation freakout run by Tony Ortega, producer and crew? She “stepped out of line”.

    Now, how many people in this country do you think are deaf dumb blind and stupid? To this bullshit? This is 2016. How long did you think this could go on before someone stepped up? This is NOT the INT BASE. This is not the 1980’s, or 70’s, or 60’s or earlier. This is not Germany or South Korea. You people in on this bullshit have homes too. You have address’ too. You have rights and RESPONSIBILITIES as Americans. If you think you are going to run lose across America wallowing in sadism and domestic terrorism, you are fucking tripping. This is criminal bullshit.



  137. Hi Marty, I’ve been reluctant to write you because I know you often have a lot going on and a pretty sizeable following. Having just seen Theroux’s MSM, which framed you very oddly (I can’t quite divine the intent of casting you in such an unusual light – and was a little pissed at LT for taking a certain line you when you were at your most vulnerable – he has since admitted that he should have apologized) I wanted to ask where you stand now in terms of your faith or lack thereof. I know it’s an odd thing for a stranger to ask, but as someone who has really had no religious affiliation since adolescence I am struck by the desire of so many former members to continue to adhere to or practice various elements of a ‘system’ that appears so inherently wrong. Obviously you have forgotten more doctrine than I’ll ever know, but even so, I figure if leaving such an organization demands so many people ‘escape’ and if the consequent harassment shows up in sharp relief how vituperative, unethical and unenlightened these people are, why would you not divorce yourself completely? I guess I am asking this purely from a personal perspective – I cannot imagine leaving such an outfit and hanging on to any of it – like removing half a tumor.

    That said, during the doc you responded to LT that (and forgive me for paraphrasing) you really didn’t have any faith. I suppose this is a long-winded way of asking where you’re at.
    I hope you and your family are well and that you are allowed a little peace from here on.

  138. Sub understanding is a very interesting topic Virginia. You almost made me tell a personal story.

  139. I just thought it would be nice to share something nice.

  140. Ron, one of the toughest mental processes for me when I left the church in 82 and realized what Ron really was was to separate out the lies from the truth.

    It wasn’t an easy process. Of course there are spiritual truths learned in Scientology. It can’t be helped because we are spiritual beings. A clock broken cloak has the correct time twice a day.

    On the other hand Ron was not right in the mind as well. He conveyed some of that madness in Scientology.

    So for me it is all about being able to distinguish, to differentiate between the lies and the truth.

    It is a process that ex cult members have to do.

    The first step, in my opinion, is in recognizing, as you have done, that Ron’s persona is not what was marketed.

    Being an iconoclast, being able to scrutinize once held “truths” and see them as lies, means I had to take Ron and his fallacious scientism off its pedestal, while at the same time not denying that some of the wins were real.

    What ever increases understanding and love for self and others is real.

    What ever causes a feeling of unease, superiority, self righteousness is false.

    Ron was an admixture of madness and genius. Like Howard Hughs.

    It takes time and effort to separate these things out. We all have to do it.

    Studying other spiritual paths reveals Ron’s ignorance and dark side. It also reveals where he was right.

    Studying other spiritual paths is essential to seeing Ron as he is.

    Good luck on your journey. It’s a good journey.

  141. I grew up with classical music playing all the time — on vinyl. I love Satie.
    When I left home with one small suitcase, my favorite classical LPs Debussy, Ravel, Saint-Saens, Satie and my husky mix to SF – I started the most amazing adventure of my life …

    Which brings me to now and the adventure continues.

    Whatever any of us do or don’t do — remember please that absolutely nothing stays the same — because of impermanence. Just TRY to make this blog, this life, this hand, this love, this career, this argument permanent.

    Only one’s core is permanent and that is remarkably colored by the causes and conditions of ones life … and it’s not a straight line.


  142. Watchful Navigator previously wrote: “You got me there. I was being a ‘cartoon absolutist’ because that’s more fun sometimes, than real life.”

    And is that is exactly why you get what you get on The Bunker, ESMB, even here. It IS fun, and addictive, especially when validated by others. You can see how it could lead to cult-like behaviour. Prejudice. Intolerance. Bullying. But it is not necessarily who you really are. I am sure you are a lovely person IRL. I bet scientology is but one of a gazillion interests and that you are actually a well-rounded, multi-layered, fun and friendly human being. But in the online world, it’s often extremely hard to see that. You’re now just an ID. A character. A surrogate. Your words can hurt just as much but now, for some reason, they are far easier to speak.

    Perhaps both the ASC and AASC should keep that in mind. Underneath all the crap, we are still human. There is so much more to us than our ID, this blog, or scientology. And whilst not everyone in the world is going to get on, I reckon if you threw a big party and invited everyone from here, UB, Mike’s, ESMB, MS2, etc., it would be a super fun evening where boundaries are broken, friendships are forged, where people can finally understand and appreciate eachother. In person. Real life. #nofilters.

    Now wouldn’t that be lovely?

  143. I am a never in but started Scientology watching around 2013, when I wrote a research paper on it for college. In the three years that followed I have seen alot of changes in the Scientology watchers. Tony Ortegas site went from informational about what Scientology is (breaking down books chapter by chapter, etc) but now is about the latest celebrity Scientology news, the latest scandal and promoting Tony’s book. We also have people like Chris Shelton who makes all his money off speaking about Scientology. Had I know when I started Scientology watching that Tony was only blogging about Scientology to build an audience for his book, I wouldn’t have started reading it. I’ve posted here, on Mike’s blog and on Tony’s. I asked an innocent question once on Tony’s about at what point an ex scientologist is able to move on with their live and not think about it every day. I was immediately accused of being part of OSA and Jeffrey Augustine went as far as starting to do research on me and referenced my LinkedIn account in his reply to me. I personally believe all religions/ though control groups are wrong and do more harm than good but I also believe you have the right to believe what you want and be a part of any group/religion you want. I came to find out more about the church but I stay for the train wreck. I don’t know you Marty but I feel for you and I’m glad you are willing to buck the trend of ASC. Disconnection is fine as long as it’s self imposed. I don’t talk to either of my brothers and that’s my choice. No one is forcing it on me. Forcing disconnection is where I have a problem. Is it better for someone in Scientology to not have to deal with someone who is bad mouthing their religion, for some maybe but for others no. I have several friends on my Facebook who are hardcore Christian and I have bad mouthed their religion plenty but guess what we are still friends.

  144. I think maybe you missed season one of this series. It is Tony Ortega and members of ESMB, that have stopped focuing on the Church and Miscavige, and began stalking and attacking people out here.

  145. A thought occurred to me the other day that if an independent scn organization opened up in my town, would I go to work for them? Even though my scn participation ended 30 years ago, I was a Class IV and Dianetic auditor and I believe that in a week or two I could brush up on my metering and TRs and be ready to say “Start of Session!”. Auditing people on the lower levels was interesting, rewarding and fun.

    Yikes! I’m time travelling!

  146. Tony Ortega wrote a post today about what it’s like to sue Scientology.

    Monique had a lawsuit going against Scientology for almost three years – subjecting her family to the same kind of abuse that Tony reported about today. That’s on top of the abuse from the squirrel busters for years previous to that and who knows what other abuse that never got reported.

    And yet Tony said very specifically that Monique dropped her suit when she was “about to win it” and that it was “costing her nothing” to keep suing the Church of Scientology.

    And all of his marauding Bunkerites fell right in line with his charge.

    No one, except those who have actually sued Scientology, questioned Tony’s reasoning about the idea that there is “no cost” to suing scientology for 3 years – if you are doing so on contingency.

    Has even one of those Bunkerites taken Tony’s post from today and applied it to better understanding Monique’s actions?

    I doubt it. That would go against the Bunkerite tribal narrative on Marty and Monique. And we all know that one must never go against the Bunkerite tribal narrative.

    You think you know something or someone from having read about them on the Internet. You feel so certain that you can weigh-in with the worst, most disparaging character assassinations – because the Internet makes you feel like you know enough to do so. You feel like you are informed, like your opinion is an informed one.

    When that is not the case at all.

    In this way, the Internet can bring out the worst in people.

    After writing today’s post about what another litigant against scientology is going through while suing them, should Tony Ortega apologize to Monique for the trouble and disparagement he’s caused her and her family?

    I think he should.

    Do you?


  147. Gnossienne is my personal favorite by Satie. It’s on my “work” playlist. 🙂

  148. “Had I know when I started Scientology watching that Tony was only blogging about Scientology to build an audience for his book…”

    That’s a very interesting point.

  149. “The Only Good Scientologist…”

    Is David Miscavige to be honest.

  150. If it includes correcting whatever BS he said about her and Mark, plus moderating the Bunkerites on the point as well, then yes. Definitely. But no mealy-mouthed platitude version, the “save my image” version that comes without actually DOING something about what he has done is worth even the internet paper it’d be printed on.

  151. Internet paper is in extremely short supply: Maybe this is why Tony Ortega has not apologized to Monique – Karen De La Carriere is out of money.

  152. Beautiful post, mwesten.

    This is exactly the kind of thinking that can melt the tribal mind.


  153. Works ok at 2.0 speed for a rock and roller like myself

  154. To add to the classical music previously, I love this if you need to release some emotion:

  155. I think we’ve gone Paulette Copper on his ass.

  156. Thank you Roger. I have gone Tony Ortega lately. Listen, I have it on the side burner brewing on another project now.

    How would you like to be interviewed for a new radio show I am putting together? Let me know!

  157. Oh LORD HAVE MERCY!! DOLORAS! Can I interview you about it? If not, or even if so, can you tell us more? Is this his legal wife or the common law one? She was working for David Miscavige? This is very interesting because Tony Ortega’s assault on the Rathbuns was so, so, GO Operation Freakout!

  158. Naaa. I think he was a she. Something in the hot air blast at me felt feminine.

  159. Anti Scientoligy Cult. ASC.

    I am fucking Anti Scientology. I want it to die.

    (By theway I am fucking right about Trump)
    I am not Anti Marty or anyone following the teachings of Hubbard. I will judge them on their deeds.

    I will stand together with Marty defending the RIGHT of anyone who wants to calls him or himself a Scientologist.

    My Promisse

  160. Paulette Cooper, I mean. I just coined a new phrase. Going Paulette Cooper on someone’s ass.

  161. Or, “Going Tony Ortega” on someone.

  162. My good Scientologist:

    This why I love Terril Park and I will defend him with my life:

    He my bro:

  163. My mother tought me decency

  164. Okay,because I do not see myself the one to nurture the needs of children.

    Education is key,the amarican workforce has been dumbed down.

  165. Here’s a longer version, for those who want it! Happy Releasing! Thank You, Beethoven! 😀 ❤

  166. LOL! 😀 ❤

  167. This is such a thoughtful post, but nobody has really engaged with you about it. Says a lot.

  168. Alanzo, I likewise have this experience of unmitigated online cruelty by members of factions most loudly complaining of cruelty in Co$.

    Throughout my life, I have had running battles with Groupthink mandated bullying and cruelty in Real Life(tm). In High School, it didn’t stop until I had enough and forceably said “NO!” to the biggest bully in the place, ceased applying my good-natured Christian “turn the other cheek” policy and went Old Testament on the evil f*ckwit.

    This brute was half again my mass and at least 6″ taller. At the end of the combat, I had him helpless in an unbreakable chokehold from behind on the ground. It took four teachers to break my grip on him upon which he sucker punched me as none of these people bothered to secure *him*. I was back in class the next day. He was never seen at Pomona High School ever again.

    After that, nobody at that school ever bullied the too-intelligent fat four-eyes again. I reckon most of the offenders realized that if I could trash the biggest bully in the place so easily, then all along I could have done the same to any of them and only my good nature and restraint had saved them.

    The problem with all these pseudonomous cyberbully gangs is they feel the Internet renders them safe from any retribution. Only the demonstrated capability to beatdown bullys by the intended victims can bring them to restrain their evil impulses. There is no threat of physical retaliation for their vile conduct, so they are unrestrained on the Internet.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  169. Oh God it was thick. Nobody ever harassed me as public. But the harassment in the Sea Org was outrageous. To the point that I was told not to wear earrings because they were “out of uniform”. How do you wear “uniform earrings”? You don’t. Once, in a torrential rain storm, I had to run down Cleveland Avenue. I pulled out a pair of Jelly shippers to put on in the rain. Halfway down the street come the CMO who were stuck in the tone level of “indignant”. I’m serious, that is a tone level. One look at my feet and I pummeled for being “out of uniform” and instructed to put my socks and shoes back on and walk in the rain in them, as they were. I felt like beating the main one with the heel of my shoe.The heels issued were some kind of plastic what were very bad for your feet. And simply awful for a climate like Florida. I went out and bought leather white heels that looked almost exactly like the ones issued. Nobody noticed for weeks until there was a “desk inspection” and they were found in my drawer. Confiscated instantly as contraband along with a bottle of wine. “Can’t have, can’t have, can’t have, can’t have.” 24/7. While pushing me on the other end to “Get more, get more, get more. get more (stats up).” They couldn’t even see how crazy this was. 99% of Scientology concepts had gone right over their head. Forget about ARC. And if you were caught smiling at one of them, if you were a woman and it was a guy you smiled at, you were written up for “2D FLOWS”. Sending out flows. Like who the hell thinks about sex in an environment like that where you don’t even sleep in your own bed? You sleep in Scientology government issued beds. I mean, if you have spent time in juvenile hall growing up, the beds are a killer. I used to cut hair for the staff and the guys from CMO used to come get me cut hair. I had to go in the men’s room with them where they had a chair near the sink (for clean up). They had “watchmen” stand over me while doing the hair cutting. Like, as if left alone in a latrine, I would have molested one of the virgins. Oh yeah, in a urinal. A urinal. This was definitely of great concern to them. The worst was when the women in CMO, would order me to cut someone’s hair for a compliance photo or because she was going on mission or up to Int. Yes, the bullies would use this opportunity frequently, to have beautiful long locks lopped off their fellow comrade. I remember one in girl horrified , asking me in a hush voice to do a “long bob”. She had beautiful hair flowing down to her waist. I did do a rather smashing long bob. But this went on between women also, seniors ordering juniors how to wear their hair. Usually, they wanted it short, short, short. No color, no gel, no hair spray, no nada. What the hell is going on when a person can not even control their own hair? No layered hair allowed! Lipstick, nail polish, and make up, confiscated from your desk drawer during inspections as contraband. This is the telling part of the evil, no pocket book to match your shoes. You were not supposed to have a purse! Like, it was a given you would not have anything to put in one! If you used your own, confiscated. “Out of uniform”.

  170. Wow, I did not know Jeffrey was doing security clearances on people. I will need to re position him on Tony’s Org Board. Under watchdog committee.

    You may have been out qualed to be posting on that blog, or, you just didn’t have the rank to ask questions.

  171. I agree with all, and it is beautifully said. Except that “absolutely nothing stays the same”. I would agree with that also, if I had never loved.

  172. Lovely! I had not hear it before. Thanks!

  173. heard.

  174. Then there is the, “Rockabilly” Elvis copies.

  175. I do not think you could post there if you did not have charge. So, you have to be keyed in, restimulated, or over restimulated to contribute.

    I think you are supposed to read his piece for the day, become incensed or keyed in, then share your reaction. Be mutual out ruds. And others contribute and prompt , to key you even more. So you become “motivated” to harm attack and suppress.

  176. @Mark Plummer, Karen De La Carriere, Terril Park, et al


    It has been around 18 years since Virginia McClaughry produced a Data Series analysis and criticism of the RTC imposition of 6-month checks on all solo NOTs auditors (David Miscavige’s cash cow that he hoped no one would ever notice). RTC immediately issues “Arbitraries Canceled for OTs” and for a brief period took great pains to relieve some of the big-paying parishioners of the abuses going on in this 6-months check line, which Virginia had conclusively demonstrated was off-policy.

    You would think that somebody, somewhere might take note of the fact that this brave action which got her expelled and fair-gamed for these next 18 years should mark her as a hero – as it strikes such a blow to church criminality – for everyone from LRH Scientologists to anti-Scientologists? You would think…

    I will let Virginia provide links to her articles documenting the Black PR campaigns, including one on her daughter run by the -CIA- (you read that right – this is not conspiratorial exaggeration).

    The OSA campaign has been relentless and apparently included a ~2000 mail-out in their name designed to ARC break (upset) the Freezone-Independent field, and it apparently did its job. Since then, almost no one has ever stepped up to their defense, and they’ve been on their own, busily continuing their uncompensated research – a labor of love – in a selfless effort to document what really happened with L. Ron Hubbard and the Church of Scientology, starting with Mike McLaughry’s Criminal Timetrack, an older, altered version of which is still on Freezone websites.

    It baffles me that years after the upsets on the old OSA-infested message boards (which I was watching back then, as I was a DSA in charge of collecting intelligence on Alan Walter), Terril Park appears on a new Facebook group and comments under the topic of OSA infiltrators, something to the effect that the only thing he would worry about is the McClaughrys.

    It baffles me that Karen, who was not part of the Independent field at the time of the OSA mailing ~2000, could harbor such vitriol for the McClaughrys as expressed in the Outer Banks post that I leaked to Virginia, which sought to appoint Tony Ortega(!) of all people (Independent Field take note) as the arbiter of what was real or not on all things Scientology…

    And this is only the latest. The McClaughrys have not just been banned from open participation on message boards, but a clean sweep was arranged recently that took down and archived or deleted any references to their work on ESMB – once again under the guise of “saving our credibility from conspiracy theory.”

    Oh what irony that Randy McDonald is continually attempting to safepoint LRH with conspiracy theories about the OT levels, “remote viewing” and the IRS takeover (all while vehemently denying the emerging evidence that LRH knew all along, and was complicit). Almost no one in the Independent field attacks Randy’s “conspiracy theories” – since they appeal to what reformers (like me) would want to believe.

    Check out the links provided in the linked post for many interesting and well-researched articles. I know that a lot of people get overwhelmed on first contact with this material. Take it slow. Perhaps you can’t “have” it. But it’s only information, right? You have the option to ignore it, right?

    Virginia probably recalls my e-mails years ago thanking her for the research, but pleading with her to not “jump to conclusions” – because the material was not what I wanted to believe. What happened after that was a windfall of documentation that has made those “conclusions” very compelling indeed.

    On the other side of the spectrum lie the “anti-Scientologists” – the Tony Ortega party line, handed down from the LRH biographers Jon Atack and Russell Miller anti-LRH “party line” – which gets vigorously defended.

    Why? Because the “sheep-dipped” (false) military record they report as fact, is a hingepin of their campaign to make Hubbard look like a lone con-artist who started a religion only for money and fame. Revealing deeper intelligence background, possible LRH heroics behind battle lines (at least in the Normandy invasion of 1944, if not also the Pacific theatre) and most of all, outside research and aid given by intelligence projects, threaten this narrative and in the present day, threaten the profitable anti-Scientology media frenzy with its money-making industries like Tony Ortega.

    I’m going to play the devil’s advocate for just a moment and concede that perhaps a handful of people – Alan Walter, Terril Park, et al – got their feelings hurt during some of those long-ago exchanges with Mike and Virginia back in the day… (and none of those were even remotely as ugly as what happens daily at Tony Ortega!)

    Does this even begin to justify an 18-year vicious smear campaign (Black PR campaign) along with real-life FairGaming (terrorist and gaslighting activity) that has continued right up to the present day???

    Who are you people and what the hell do you think you are doing???

    What is the hidden agenda?

  177. Ha! Nice play on words. But, actually that concept works too I suppose.

  178. I kind of liked the Copper part.

  179. When I wrote this I actually didn’t totally think of it in *quite* the way of actual money, but you’re right. “Out of money” could be a possibility.

  180. Yea, I did notice this one was actually quite a bit slower than the one that I listen to (Gnossienne’s #1) plus this video keeps putting all these sad pictures with it. Not how I see it at all when I’m working. It’s just nice background “quiet” music.

    But then… there’s also the Tarkan, Led Zeppelin, Moby and Massive Attack etc. that’s on my playlist too. lol

  181. My only experience with Scientology was around 1988 (I was about 18) when I was approached on Edward St in Briabane, Australia by a guy who asked me a few questions then invited me inside to learn a little more. He tried to sell me a book, I declined on the basis of not having enough money and he asked me how much money I had. This was a red flag, so I thanked him & left. I mention this purely to highlight how little I know about the organization outside of documentaries and investigative reports.

    Recently I asked a question of Marty and checked the boxes for notifications in case of a reply & to see other comments. Since then I have read quite a few detailed and often passionately expressed words. I can’t speak to the minutiae of what’s been said, but in every case I have felt as I’m outside concentric bubbles looking into a couple of microcosmic worlds. Each comment has left me with the desire to say just one thing: you know, you only get one of these lives.

  182. Roger From Switzerland Thought


  183. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    Could be interesting, but I got no Intention of gossiping, revealing the real truths or this Kind of nonsense. Just being a human being…..

  184. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    but this could be a Problem if one is interviewed by ORACLE !
    WHO will be talking more ?


  185. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    I know she did, also she loved you…
    You ‘re a world citizen…

  186. I just finished “my Scientology movie” … Haha .
    My poor Bulgravian movie knowledge, gives me a sence that all dialogs between Marty and others are remembered screenplay…
    Screenplay that was meant to look like real story . Something like Kardashian family or new funny mockumentary “Houston , we have a problem.”, about Yugoslavia selling spacecraft to USA…
    Just bad as Bigfoot story’s on History channel.
    Marty , stay strong in this.

    Big hello from LRHs Bulgravia.

  187. I also listened to some follow ups at 2.0. Camille Saint-Saens, Danse Macabre, at 2.0 speed fits the tone level here imo in a good way – energetic, forceful, hopeful. I’ve listened to it several times that-a-way.

  188. edit – 1.5 speed better for Danse Macabre

  189. Good for you, Michael. Love that story of the bully take-down. Bet it was life-changing.

  190. Remembering the Dream

    Remember the dream?
    When the heart had an ember of light? Lighting the way forward?
    When freedom’s trumpet boasted a clarion call of undivided attention.
    Remember the possibilities of Divine Power?
    Remember the singular spiritual purpose with its galvanizing focus?


    Where did you go my dearest of dear dreams?

    Now it’s a dream of conflict. A dream of enemies. A dream of polarized minds. A dream of good and bad people. A dream of I Me and Mine. A dream of war. A dream of hate and misunderstanding.

    We paint the blank canvas of circumstance with the colors of our present mind.
    The world is as we are. There is no other world. We are always Total Cause. We have just forgotten who we are.

    We dreamers dream; dales of multicolored hues or nightmares of conflict.

    This Scientology diaspora is a cacophony of hurt betrayal and anger; the outcome of a philosophy of destroy the enemy.

    On the throne of pure consciousness, pure light, pure wisdom and love; a tear is shead for the lost children, the forgotten dreamers.

    Load your muzzles, slander the fiends, plan your nightmare raids into the face of the enemy.


    Remember the dream? The dream of love, peace and benevolent power?

    May the Eternal Light of the Supreme Spirit bathe this broken dream with soul memories of that dream.

    What is true and what is not true, there stands revealed.

    “Lead us from the unreal to the real
    Lead us from darkness to light
    Lead us from ignorance to wisdom
    And lead us from death to immortality”

    The Brihadaranyaka Upanishads. 700 BC.

  191. Yes — but the love changed – not the object of your love but the love — it grew, waned, grew etc …

    The CORE doesn’t change but that gets into too much complication here —
    so I tried to keep it simple —

  192. Mussorsky – Night on Bald Mountain – 1.5! – Happy Halloween!

  193. “The CORE doesn’t change…”

    In some philosophies, one’s core IS love – unconditional love – and they are one and the same.

    It just occurred to me that this might tie in with “pleasure moments” and the idea that they can’t be erased, which would mean they are “permanent,” or as permanent as anything can be.

  194. Really nice. This is your forte.

  195. Thank you. No. There was nothing life-changing about it as I was simply doing what was *necessary* at the time, as I have pretty much always done.

    You seem to have missed the point of this story, which was the proper handling of bullies and their cliques. Hubbard wrote about this in HCO PL, “Ethics, Design Of” with a comparable message.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  196. Exactly.

  197. I think you could write some very interesting books.

  198. Laughter! I am a great listener! No, it is not going to be a gossip type of radio show. HUMAN INTEREST. But there is going to be a Scientology series. And I am hoping to be the co host, not the host. And I am very serious about an interview. Not only with you, but a few others. There are no “middle path” voices in this madness. And truth is, we are the largest %age of the population in this Scientology theater.

  199. What’s the worst that can happen when you sue Scientology? Here’s one frightening example: Media gang stalking!

    Shocking news today out of Texas.

    Monique Rathbun formally ends her lawsuit in Texas; Ken Dandar wins again in Florida
    Monique Rathbun’s harassment lawsuit against the Church of Scientology which she filed in August 2013 has now ended with a document she filed Tuesday in Comal County, Texas.

    Share Button
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    May 12th, 2016 | Category: Scientology Jurisprudence | 1611 Comments
    Scientology confirms it won’t oppose Monique Rathbun’s plans to ditch lawsuit
    According to the Texas Supreme Court’s online docket, the Church of Scientology has confirmed that it is unopposed to the motion filed last week by Monique Rathbun, who has asked for a stay in her case so she can dismiss her lawsuit outright.

    Meanwhile, at his blog, Monique’s husband, Mark “Marty” Rathbun, announced […]

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    May 4th, 2016 | Category: Scientology Jurisprudence | 2384 Comments
    Monique Rathbun has asked the Texas Supreme Court to lift the stay in her harassment lawsuit against the Church of Scientology so she can dismiss the suit itself.

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    April 28th, 2016 | Category: Scientology Jurisprudence | 773 Comments
    Texas Supreme Court asks for Monique Rathbun’s response to Scientology’s petition
    The Texas Supreme Court has asked Monique Rathbun for a response to the Church of Scientology’s petition for review of a lower court’s ruling, and now she has until May 23 to file a highly technical legal document.

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    April 24th, 2016 | Category: Rod Keller, Scientology Jurisprudence | 674 Comments
    No longer working for Monique Rathbun to sue Scientology, Ray Jeffrey opens up
    Once it became official that Ray Jeffrey and his colleagues — Marc Wiegand, Elliott Cappuccio, and Leslie Hyman — were no longer working for Monique Rathbun in her harassment lawsuit against the Church of Scientology, we called up Ray to see if he’d be interested in an interview. We’re glad to say he […]

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    March 21st, 2016 | Category: Ray Jeffrey | 1112 Comments
    Monique Rathbun waives a response: Will the TX Supreme Court take up Scientology’s appeal?
    Monique Rathbun has waived her right to respond to the Church of Scientology’s petition to the Texas Supreme Court just a couple of days before the initial deadline for her to respond had arrived.
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    March 18th, 2016 | Category: Scientology Jurisprudence | 822 Comments
    Monique Rathbun is on the clock at the Texas Supreme Court, and more in our legal roundup
    A sharp-eyed observer pointed out to us that the Texas Supreme Court’s docket posted a countdown date for Monique Rathbun to file a response to the Church of Scientology’s petition in her harassment lawsuit. That date is set for March 21.

    Ever wonder who that “sharp-eyed observer” is?

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    February 24th, 2016 | Category: Scientology Jurisprudence | 828 Comments
    David Miscavige wastes no time once the stay is lifted in Monique Rathbun’s lawsuit
    As we expected, as soon as the Texas Supreme Court temporarily lifted the stay in Monique Rathbun’s harassment lawsuit against the Church of Scientology, a motion was filed this week in Dib Waldrip’s Comal County court, and we have a copy of it for you. And sure enough, there was a surprise — […]

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    February 18th, 2016 | Category: Scientology Jurisprudence | 611 Comments
    Our Texas legal expert helps us understand what’s next in Monique Rathbun’s lawsuit
    When news broke that Monique Rathbun had fired her legal team, we turned to commenter “TX Lawyer” for help understanding the ramifications of her decision. If you’re a regular reader of the site, you know that for a couple of years TX Lawyer has helped us understand the arcane twists and turns of […]

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    February 7th, 2016 | Category: Scientology Jurisprudence | 907 Comments
    The particularly bad timing of Monique Rathbun’s decision to fire her attorneys
    We wanted to follow up yesterday’s blockbuster news with some important details..

  200. George Layton

    Or going The Oracle on and on and on and on and on and on, on someone.

  201. We have better need for drug pushers than what you are pushing Tony. At least people can get high and feel better for a while, from that product. Possibly, even creative.

  202. Mussorgsky – from comments:

    the coolest scene in (Disney’s) Fantasia
    “I was into heavy metal before it was popular.” Mussorgsky
    “I only make True Kult music.” Mussorgsky

  203. “We’re humbled to reach this milestone, and we thank all of our readers for keeping this such a thriving website”.

    Posted by Tony Ortega on September 24, 2016 at 07:00

  204. Thank you lovey! A thetan can do anything forever!

  205. Terril mentioned he had some bypassed charge. As has Virginia mentioned bypassed charge. I think Terril made two posts about any BPC he had, on anyone, anywhere, in the last 15 years. Here. Maybe anywhere. I do not think he belongs on this list.

    He is not in any close conspiracies with anyone, would never resort to any “campaign” on someone. I do not think he has the same values within an “HCO BRING ORDER” the others may warrant.

    Beyond that he is dealing with health challenges at this time.

    Anyone that needs to curb stomp him at this late date, can direct that towards me.

    Mark Plummer just seems like Karen’s Internet butler staff.

  206. singanddanceall

    having seen the movie, I understood why Marty walked out when Louie wanted to recreate the scene of everybody clapping to LRH.

    I would have too!

  207. A “black P.R.” campaign is what Tony Ortega did to Monique Rathbun in the media across country.

    What I am doing with my blog. When you put someone’s name on the Internet and stick it there with a declare of some kind.

    Although my blog is an “insiders joke” because I did not tag photos with names, except for two I did not mention names.

    A black P.R. campaign is what I find when I Google my own name, and find my declare from ESMB, where I was outed and declared “a drama queen”. By someone with a restraining order on them from a child’s school yard.

    It is when a public declare is issued on you, on the Internet, and it sits there day after day, week after week, year after year. Declaring you evil, insane, a menace to mankind or whatever.

    Blog spats and blog posts are well, the purpose of the Internet is “entertainment” on forums. People bitch, complain, share, disagree, voice concerns, etc etc. And it is a right to have opinions, upsets, attitudes, fears, concerns, ideas likes and dislikes.

  208. And Alan Walters has been deceased for some time now. If he is still part of any campaign, it is either by channeling or foraging.

  209. Does this graph look like a “thriving website”? I know Tony is not into the brainwashing of Scientology like statistics. But if his blog were an investment particle on Wall Street, these things matter to investors. And his blog is not a company people would be buying stock in right now. In fact, people would be selling off any stock they had in his blog, like mad. This does not signal “thriving”.

  210. “lunatic fringe ramblings”. From Karen? “…a card-carrying member of the lunatic fringe” is the OSA response for critics.

    Maybe it is just a general declare if you have worked in OSA. Like a curse word.

  211. For you info: Negative P.R. See also: Negative campaigning
    Negative public relations, also called dark public relations (DPR) and in some earlier writing “Black PR”, is a process of destroying the target’s reputation and/or corporate identity.

    The objective in DPR is to discredit someone else, who may pose a threat to the client’s business or be a political rival. DPR may rely on IT security, industrial espionage, social engineering, and competitive intelligence.

    Common techniques include using dirty secrets from the target, producing misleading facts to fool a competitor. In politics, a decision to use negative PR is also known as negative campaigning.

    noun US ​ /kæmˈpeɪn/

    A plan consisting of a number of activities directed toward the achievement of an aim.

    Tony Ortega ran a four month media campaign on the Rathbuns. What is on his blog sits there every day with their name on it. They were both declared many things overtly and covertly by implication. “Secrets” were implied where non existed. Treason was implied where none existed. Insanity, ill will and evil and injustice were declared where non existed.

  212. The purpose is always to harm or destroy someone’s credibility and reputation. And thereby nullify their influence.

    “If there will be a long-term threat, you are to immediately evaluate and originate a black PR campaign to destroy the person’s repute and to discredit them so thoroughly that they will be ostracized.» — L. Ron Hubbard, 30 May 1974, “Confidential – PR Series 24 – Handling Hostile Contacts/Dead Agenting”

    THIS IS HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS if falsehoods are a part of it.

    «No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.» — Article 12 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

    ESMB and The UNDER GROUND BUNKER are actually in full throttle on HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES.

  213. Both groups are support groups FOR HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES.

  214. To Oracle… It is truly apparent that your life would be more peaceful and fruitful if you focused your time and energy on something besides your bitterness. I’m not trying to offend you, but I would really like for you to seriously consider my suggestion.

  215. Thanks for volunteering to be a knight in shining armour if someone
    tries to curb stomp me. 🙂 I’m quite capable of dealing with that. In fact I sent a blistering reply which Marty wisely didn’t allow through. Its not relevant to what he wants to say here. Health challenges are minor and
    a natural result of being over three score and ten.

  216. Thank you my dear❤️. I truly appreciate your appreciation. I love writing about Spirit, God etc etc. I have since I was 16.
    My OT friends use to look at me like I was “possessed” for bringing up this subject. This was before I knew about the OT3/BT theory.
    I did not know it at the time but I was being judged through the filters of Ron’s delusional imagination.

    BTW, I know you like my spiritual writings and consider my judgements of Ron to be not useful. Or that no one gets benefit by them.

    Please see Mike’s post today. I would say the post challenges your assumption.

  217. Hey Miraldi – Now I’m listening to classical music. You just never know what will come up on Marty’s blog! Thanks to Oracle, windhorsegallery and mcclaughry for piquing my interest. I always found most classical music too pokey, but some of it works well at faster speeds and some of it is fine as it is. I think if a classical orchestra offerred classical favorites at a faster speed it would gain a new audience. “The Classical 1.5 Orchestra”.

    Almost all younger folks are internet savvy and they would get the 1.5 connection. Classically trained musicians would get more work instead of all the money going to Justin Beiber. Even the religious right would favor their kids attending classical concerts. End of essay.

  218. From the Anti-Outer Banks & Anti-Karen de la Carriere blog:

    As I expected shortly after publishing my revelations my sock account was unceremoniously kicked out of The Outer Banks. That’s okay though because in the time I was there I made a few friends who agree with the issues that I have. They’ve told me a lot has gone on since this website was first published.

    Ever since I left the group all posts related to this site have been forbidden. They also refuse to allow any information that has ‘come from OSA.” My source tells me that they haven’t exactly been clear about how that standard will be applied. To me it sounds more like a way to broadly censor anything that they don’t like. When questions about this were raised by another user that user was unceremoniously told in so many words to shut up. That same user raised complaints that individuals ought to have the right to know that there information is out there. These complaints were also shut down. The mods have also changed the rules to forbid any talk of Marty Rathbun clearly out of shame at having been caught bashing him.

    Obviously this is exactly what I predicted. I have known all along that Karen would clamor to cover all this up. She has no concerns for the things that she claims to care about in her ridiculously bad YouTube videos. For all her crowing about free speech she doesn’t seem to care much about it. She is so desperate to control her image that she is hiding all of this so people won’t realize how naive and stupid she is. She’s covering it up so that people won’t realize that all it takes is a little bit of flattery to get close to her.

    Never fear though. Your narrator will be continuing to publish disclosures about the things going on behind Karen’s Iron Curtain. Her attempts at censorship are only making more people start to see through her. The Outer Banks is turning out to be a rather fortuitous name because the whole group is leaking like a ship run aground on those Carolina shores.

  219. I hope I don’t offend you Lisa, but this is quite pleasing to me at 1.5 speed. (use the settings tool) I think it’s also well within the performance capabilities of an advanced high school or college band. 🙂

  220. “My OT friends use to look at me like I was ‘possessed’ for bringing up this subject. This was before I knew about the OT3/BT theory.”

    My guess would be that those OTs had little reality on the 8th dynamic, even though it is a basic part of the philosophy.

    “BTW, I know you like my spiritual writings and consider my judgments of Ron to be not useful. Or that no one gets benefit by them. Please see Mike’s post today. I would say the post challenges your assumption.”

    Either that or it confirms that you are misleading people, at least in part. I noticed that some of the comments affirm personal reality on BTs – even though they may be couched in politically correct phrasing because of the consensus of opinion of Mike’s posters.

    In any case, I’m happy that you appreciate my appreciation. ❤

  221. “You just never know what will come up on Marty’s blog!”

    And YOU have contributed to the variety a good bit. 🙂

    Btw, I play some youtube vids at 1.5 – I mean the talking ones! Otherwise, they are too slow!

  222. “And Alan Walters has been deceased for some time now. If he is still part of any campaign, it is either by channeling or foraging.”

    Nice outpoint indication.

    I had the privilege of visiting him at “The Ranch ” in 2004.

    The author of the post above Scott Gordon says:-

    “It baffles me that years after the upsets on the old OSA-infested message boards (which I was watching back then, as I was a DSA in charge of collecting intelligence on Alan Walter),”

    This from ESMB archives sept 9 2010 a snippet of Virginia’s Son’s,
    Tom Rhodes many posts :=

    “She thought some guy named Alan Walters was a black psychic agent and would send black BT clouds to her or psychic attacks which she would have to fend off.”

    And I’m accused of a black PR campaign?

    Lots more I could add.

  223. Bitterness? Wrong item, wrong indication. You describe my purpose to put order onto chaos, as “bitterness”. My unwillingness to allow bullies run rampant on sadistic purpose lines, as “bitterness”.

    I suggest you are the on the one that is bitter. If you can only view my manifestations and purposes as “fruitless” and originating from a negative core. Rather than a responsible one.

  224. Furthermore, putzing in the rose garden whilst gangs run rampant on Human Rights Abuses, does not bear fruit. It bears misery and genocide.

    The purpose flows through time, ethnic cleansing. This is the same purpose that blew through Nazi Germany, the same purpose that blew through the south with the KKK. The same purpose that blew through the mid west and wiped out the Native Indians.

    These people become “acivated” through re stimulation and set out to wipe out entire civilizations and cultures. Now you have the Scientologists chasing mental health professionals while the anti Scientologists stalk and hunt Scientologists.

    This has nothing to do with personal bitterness. It has to do with my love for mankind. These people with ethnic cleansing goals and purposes have to watched, corralled. Otherwise, they wind up on your front porch.

    And that is exactly why I did have to get involved. They ended up on front porch.

  225. And it has cost me more $$$ to deal with them over the past ten years, than my entire bridge through clear, expanded grades, long way Dianetics and drug rundown, cost in the Church of Scientology.

    I actually had to hire a law firm in Canada, not a lawyer, the FIRM, to handle one of them that I had only been kind and very generous to.

    One of them on my lines was an 850K hit. Another parked in the boondocks of Maryland worked for years to start a witch hunt against me and finally just blew out all bullets in an attempt to unmock my income lines.

    These fucks are not the whiny victims they pretend to be. They are ruthless, cunning, manipulative hunters, who have no problem trying to burn your life down. They don;t care about your family, your children, your reputation, your career. Most are former OSA hunters. They are just as malicious and more so, so than people working in the Church of Scientology.

    They ALL eat sleep breathe, on ethnic cleansing goals. They will always be a menace to this species as long as they can obtain bodies. Even when they return as insects to eat away at the leaves on your grapevines.

  226. Yeah – I knew that.

    But I recall that was where most of the “firefight” was at that time (Alan Walter was subject of the OSA-produced false interrog) and I am assuming that if anyone remains -that- upset (again – playing “devil’s advocate” here) after all this time, and they really don’t have another agenda going, then they maybe need to look at “second chances.”

    Making a 16-yr-old “upset” stick after getting “Freezone auditing” really takes some doing!

    Would take me all of six minutes with an e-meter, and I’d be willing to call Karen herself, and chat it up. (And our upset is hot off the platter!)

    I just do not get the need to continually grind a person into the ground and prevent them from participating in the community because one felt they were “uncivil” on some long-ago forum.

  227. Thanks for that reference!

    “If there will be a long-term threat, you are to immediately evaluate and originate a black PR campaign to destroy the person’s repute and to discredit them so thoroughly that they will be ostracized.”
    — L. Ron Hubbard, 30 May 1974, “Confidential – PR Series 24 – Handling Hostile Contacts/Dead Agenting

    I can see that this has been a textbook operation indeed.

    Virginia’s research is considered a “long-term threat” to the Co$, to the pro-Hubbard sector of Freezone, and last but not least, the up-and-coming Indy cherch…

    And yes, that stated goal of “ostracism” has been a fait acompli for quite a while now.


  228. Hi Brother Brain!
    I love your write up!

    You said:
    “Remember the dream?”

    Well, yesterday afternoon I got a call from the head monk at our local monastery. A new monk from Sri Lanka arrived in Tampa, and my wife and were invited to meet with him. This was exciting since we felt that it was such an honor. This monk is a very,very happy holy man. I thought “This is the dream”. We spent about two hours with him and experienced very high meditative states. We floated home.
    When I read your post again, I thought “The dream” – the scent of fresh purple lilacs with beautiful butterflies, a cool morning – no cares on the island.
    This experience was also special because the background of Hubbard’s Occult framework is complete with hundreds of links and references. I can actually now run him through his own thought, make him think, imagine and formulate a synthetic magic that represents his image and ego. Totally cool.
    Much Metta,

  229. Excuse me, but unless one *likes* being slapped, “turn the other cheek” doesn’t work, either. In my book, sufficiently martial arts training as never to receive the slap in the first place is the ticket. This applies on a spiritual level, as well.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  230. Oh yeah – I got the point – and the similarity to the message.

    You took that bully down and that was the end of that!

  231. Very true. Especially the fucks part.

  232. Scott is referring to the long-term campaign Oracle, which Alan was a part of in the early 2000’s.

  233. Exactly. In my opinion, internet stalkers, as one of my friends calls Terril Park, are not interested in handling anything. The same friend pointed out that there has not been a single time during the last 11 years that he has ever tried to personally contact me with the goal of friendliness restored. It was pointed out to me, in no uncertain terms, that omission was very telling.

    Wherever anyone tries to say something good about me, or wherever I may be able to speak or write unmolested during that time period, you can guarantee that this man will show up to try and make sure everyone is informed of at least:

    A: My mental state (unbalanced, insane, etc.)
    B: My supposed abusive history as a parent
    C: My stance regarding telepathy and other spiritual topics.
    D. Implications, veiled, or not so veiled that I am a scientologist working for OSA.

    Just exactly as he has done here at Mark’s blog.

    @Mark Rathbun, I came here because I thought it would be different than ESMB, and although I know you are moderating the worst of what Terril and others are trying to do – he is only here to harass me. No matter what he says otherwise, and I will have no part of allowing his stalking of me to continue.

    I’m thinking maybe I should leave and perhaps he will stop dumping it on you too.


  234. Laughter! I did not know if you were reading over here or on the net. Otherwise I know you manage your own.

  235. When Anderson Cooper investigated Village Voice / Tony Ortega’s sex trade business:

  236. ” It’s the old hippie ideal of endlessly pushing a lefty agenda to keep up your “movement” cred. Hey, good luck with that. But I live in a cutthroat town, and I have salaries to pay”.

    Tony Ortega

  237. OK. Well, if only it were so easy to drop the hammer over the Internet. If it *were*, one would see so much less of this Cyberbullying, crap

  238. Looks like more of the same slime, Terril Parks…

    Quote Virginia’s son? (who was turned on her by Nancy Many for OSA – and you were -not- ignorant of that fact).

    How low does this go?

    Lots more -I- could say about Alan Walter – but I won’t because this is not about Alan Walter (other than he was the target of the OSA mailing meant to depict Virginia as its source).

    No, the target of your post is to slime Virginia even though you can offer NOTHING to show you were personally hurt in whatever way by any of all that.

    (Apparently this is how things are done by a “product” of Freezone Scientology – RonsOrg Bridge – applying the old “ruin utterly” reference with OSA-GO tactics.)

    Is this representative of Freezone Scientology “advanced levels” abilities? Are you speaking from a group? or are you a loose cannon?

    Were you and your family ever fair-gamed to the extent Virginia’s was?

    So let me get this straight here at last. Sixteen years ago Virginia privately expresses suspicions that Alan is sending bad thoughts her way, and that is one of the justifications you can give for your personally unmotivated, continuous and vicious participation in a conspiracy to publicly slander and deny comfort to someone undergoing “ruin utterly” operations? (directed at her through her father, daughter, son, and private investigators?)

  239. Perfectly stated, The Oracle.

    Like many of your comments, this one is more than “good” – it is positively inspiring.

  240. Marty, thank you for your origination. I’m sorry you have had such unpleasant experiences with critics, former and current Scientologists.
    The Free Zone is not an easy place, and it takes awhile to separate the wheat from the chaff. There are some of us that try to stay on source as much as possible and deliver effective tech. Don’t give up on us, just choose your people. Best Regards, Pat Krenik

  241. miscavigeisscaredofsam

    For better or worse we all did what we thought we had to do when we thought we had to do it. Sometimes we got it wrong and sometimes we got it right but regardless I know who YOU and Mosey are and I know your heart is in the right place and your intentions were honest.
    As for the tendency to create or be part of new cults the fault is not yours nor even necessarily the ramblings of a deluded psychopath (Hubbard – my opinion only), but rather the frailty of the ‘human’ condition.
    Be at peace old friend. Do what you have to do and move on as soon as you feel you are able to leave the heartbreak behind you.

  242. Now that I’m more familiar with this work, 1.25 is pleasant

  243. This is fine at all speeds. It depends on how much you like your ghosts and goblins to really go nuts.

  244. Hi Miraldi – I don’t know how to transport a video. If you posted “Night on Bald Mountain” here, I think a lot of people would enjoy it. If you feel like it. Seven billion dollars per year spent on Halloween – laughter

  245. This interview was in 2012.

    A few days ago, the CEO of Backpage, Carl Ferrer, was arrested in Dallas, from a flight in Amsterdam.

    Not sure when Ortega was fired from VV but I think it was around this time. But, he was definitely aware and knew what back page was all about. Hey, “he had salaries to pay.”

    He then had to shift HARD to something else to make his own personal expenses. Sadly he chose to continue a path that would ensure he became more solidly a materialist and eschew at ALL costs anything remotely spiritual. That someone could know his intentions or understand his mind was more than he could take. Thus he choses to do everything he can to destroy scientology and anything from the tech that *could* be useful to help a fellow human being.

    His most ardent supporters, who offer all sorts of tidbits guaranteed to keep the crowds titillated, talk about how they are now PROUDLY atheists. Many former cult members and therefore anything that remotely seems religious or potentially a “cult” they won’t even examine. This is found in many other former cult members, not just from scientology.

    AND even more sadly – IMHO – there are those who have decided that ANTI-SCIENTOLOGY is the winning “valence” — and profitable. And funny. And serves their own as yet unaddressed sense of entitlement or meanness. And explains their own horrible behavior when they were on the TOP OF THE HEAP.

    ALL these heaps are just that. Heaps. AND like ALL heaps — they shift, change, disappear and start again.

    AS LONG as there is someone there to make them SOLID by adding to the stories.


    I appreciate, though, this de-contruction by so many here. It’s helping me sort out my own experiences and time. I have yet to fully let go of all of this.

    Perhaps I never will.



  246. I am sorry but I couldn’t agree more. This morning I woke up to Facebook news alleging a child with cancer has been wished death by animal lovers because his dream was becoming a bullfighter. We have really lost it and it’s scary and sad. People are becoming the very thing they’re fighting against and it’s really sad.

  247. “Like so many other things in Scientology, its interest in the sex lives of its parishioners seems to be a reflection of L. Ron Hubbard’s own obsessions”. Posted by Tony Ortega on March 4, 2013 at 07:00

    “I’m satisfied with the two sex columns (note: Cybersex and Savage Love)
    I have now, and I really don’t have room for additional columns at the moment. But thanks for thinking of us”.

    – Tony Ortega August 2007

  248. “Scientology’s day care from hell: The scandal the church managed to keep hidden — until now.” ( Child sexual abuse coverup at Los Angeles Scientology daycare)

    Posted by Tony Ortega on July 10, 2015 at 07:00

    Village Voice’s profit from Hell: The scandal Tony Ortega tried to keep hidden — and failed.

    Sex-Trafficking Feud

    “This is something that certainly exists,” CdeBaca says of underage sex trafficking. “People come and spend a lot of time and effort and attention on it. Then the debunkers come in. And people remain enslaved.”

  249. I could go on and on. Tony Ortega’s stunning and bizarre hypocrisy is just anywhere someone who really cares to be discerning, cares to look.

  250. I agree there are inhumane conditions in the Church of Scientology. And I have listed those out on numerous forums.

    But this is the LAST PERSON who should be pointing the finger at anyone. A guy who has willingly, without even religious fervor, engaged in the same human trafficking and misery.

    He has a history of profiting off other people’s misery. Not for the “sake of mankind or a planet”. For a fucking paycheck on Friday.

    And he is still profiting off of other people’s misery. Exploiting people and their misery every fucking day of the week to pimp his book and street cred as a “Scientology expert”. He has never been in Scientology. He only profits off of other people’s misery with it.

    He points the finger at other people?

    I had to grow up in the East Village where these fucking pimps were hitting on runaway kids. Even I had to fight with them. Tony had to step over this human misery every day and every night coming and going to work at that paper. And this was one of the most tragic situations in the Village. That kids running away from some kind of oppression, were preyed upon and exploited and enslaved in their search for Freedom. And Ortega contributed to it every day he worked for that place. And also worked damned hard to cover it up as an issue, so he could grab his paycheck on Fridays.

    Now he just exploits another kind of runaway. And claims it is because he doesn’t like bullies.

    He is a hypocrite that profits off of human misery. That is his stock and trade.

    And I have no respect for anyone, that contributes to that for some other, ” worth while cause”. Grown assed adults with shelter whining while that MFKER made payroll off the backs of tortured children. And attacked anyone or discredited anyone that tried to bring it to light.

    This man did not get paid to write anything for the Village Voice. He was paid to edit and manage. WHO pays him to write? Donations to his blog. A blog. No newspaper in New York City or anywhere in the United States America, will hire this man to write for them. But his blog readers will!

    His rap about leaving the Voice to focus on their “concerns” was just that. A rap. He got canned. He did not resign. You think he is going to overthrow the Church of Scientology with his blog? Who the fuck reads that blog except for the disenfranchised from Scientology?

    Marty Rathbun had more effect with Tampa Bay Times and Anderson Cooper, in TWO DAYS of reporting. Than that pimp has had in four fucking years of daily hypocritical diatribe with a reckless disregard for the truth.

    He celebrates 1.5 million comments? Venom filled, hate mongering disseminated in 1.5 million comments, makes him a menace to society.

  251. Even the disenfranchised seem to be done with his bullshit.

  252. And how Tony Ortega is managing to get his comments, letters and articles about himself erased from the Internet, is a new art form:

    “Village Voice editor-in-chief and anti-Scientology crusader Tony Ortega … Like most alt-weeklies, the Voice depends on sex and drug ads for its very survival”. The Gawker Erased from the Internet with every reference to Tony Ortega

    Seems the Guardians Office were not the only people able to shred evidence.

  253. Agree with everything you’ve said. Everything.

    Hypocrites and those who exploit others for their own personal gain OR to hide their own criminal behavior or because they are too cowardly to stand up …

    Make me growl.


  254. “A few days ago, the CEO of Backpage, Carl Ferrer, was arrested in Dallas, from a flight in Amsterdam”.

    BLOWDOWN! Thank you for this! I am NOT TRIPPING. This is REAL.

    Backpage CEO Carl Ferrer arrested on pimping charges .


  255. Hi Sam …

    I have a different take on this … of course, it’s just mine – not agreed or disagreed by Mark …

    Mark stated had he been able to foresee what would become of his encouragement to have others write about their experiences – he never would have.

    It is USUALLY the unexpected and unintended consequences of our actions that *can* trip us up or make us re-think a choice – especially when it affects lots of people and people we love.

    I frankly doubt that Mark will ever move off this exposure of truth. This exposure of hypocrisy.

    I doubt he will ever stop protecting his wife and child and his extended family.

    It is who Mark is. He was this person, at birth.

    HOW that happens, I don’t know. Reincarnation is far more complex than I had been led to believe.

    Karma is bandied about these days – mostly utterly misunderstood. I no longer profess to understand much.

    But, I don’t really think he is heartbroken at this point.

    Sad to have lost friends he once loved. I’m betting he might still love them. Just no longer has them on his short list.

    Brene Brown (I think it was Brene) who said make a square — one inch by one inch and write down the names of those you 100% trust.

    Try it. It doesn’t allow for many names.

    AND I’m finding that it’s true. My list is 4 names.


  256. @Terril

    I would be willing to facilitate restoring communication and making peace, if you are open to it.

    scott (@)

    PS – this applies to anyone else interested

  257. “The CEO of Backpage, a website that has been accused of allowing ads for child sex trafficking, was arrested Thursday in Texas.

    In a joint investigation, California and Texas authorities said they found that adults and children had been forced into prostitution through escort ads on Backpage.
    “Raking in millions of dollars from the trafficking and exploitation of vulnerable victims is outrageous, despicable and illegal,” California Attorney General Kamala Harris said in a statement. “Backpage and its executives purposefully and unlawfully designed Backpage to be the world’s top online brothel.”

    I guess the California and Texas authorities are “unhinged” too?

    Tony Ortega ran a fucking brothel.

    When is he going to be arrested? I want to know when someone is going to arrest that slimy sneaky pimp! He WAS ONE OF THE EXECUTIVES.


    I hope Marty’s next blog post is about the executives found pimping! By authorities in two states!

    What a rare and surprising sudden turn around! I am still in shock!

    Laughter! Oh yeah Babe, New York will be on this bandwagon in a minute as prosecutors there rock steady to keep up their street cred!

    If any y’all want to nudge over there, just call Mr. Cyrus Vance’s office at

    Domestic Violence/Child Abuse 212-335-4308
    Human Trafficking 212-335-3400

    Both lines for info on when Tony Ortega will be arrested.

  258. For Tony:

  259. The most likable person ever

    Mike I hope you knw I am KSS on WWP

    I am not a christian either.

    But I do love Jezus and he is a Hero of me

  260. I will make it my personal duty to get some dutch milatary pumps in.

  261. I love you so much, It is because you are yourself and I am not a cynical 4channer.

    Damn I love you.

  262. God damn, I was guilty of not reading the whole thing so no i am educated

  263. Please go after me

  264. It is that Time when you really need to say something,

    Fuck that

  265. All I do is to copy and paste the URL of the youtube video and WordPress does the rest. Here ya go:

  266. Loved this comment Windhorse. Really loved it. And those 4 aren’t really *just* 4, are they? They are infinity.


  267. That’s great Tony! Looks like the Howdy Con may be held at Rikers Island next year?

  268. miscavigeisscaredofsam

    I can count on one hand the number of people I DON’T trust. Glass half full? Perhaps. But I believe trust begats trust just as love begats love and hate begats hate. I also believe any religion or dogmatic system serves only to usurp and replace the divine right of a soul to travel his own path and learn his own lessons – yours included (with the humblest of respect).
    Exposing the abuses of others is all well and fine but when it becomes a ‘crusade’ to ‘help’ others to form the opinions they.’should’ have or to utterly destroy the ‘other side’ it’s time for all the kids to put their popguns away and find something more constructive to do. I think that time has come. Is all I’m saying. I think the point has. Een made and then some and then hammered to death.

  269. miscavigeisscaredofsam

    Scuse typos. Trying to edit on this stinking phone isn’t worth wasting another half an hour of my life 😀

  270. Typos were easy to figure out 🙂

    Your comment however got me to re-look at my comment as well as try to find the Brene Brown book (and it could have been someone else for that matter) wherein the author spoke of the one inch square.

    Perhaps in “Daring Greatly” Brene Brown. But I can’t find it easily.

    BUT my point is this — my default has been to be OVERLY trusting. Or naive or just plain dumb. IF someone said something, I believed them.

    Why would they lie. BUT OF COURSE THEY LIE. Often – if only to cover their own embarrassment. At being caught in a “white lie” — so they “white lie” again.

    ANYWAY — it’s not so much the few I trust. BUT the FEW that will drop everything to come help IF I need them. THAT is a few.

    And we are better served I believe to understand that it’s a handful IF we are lucky who will drop everything, rearrange their life for a while to come to ones aid.

    And for me — that circle of utter trust (which means to me – stop what they are doing for a while and come help) is few. And in my case, family.

    Others might have a different take and of course that is fine.

    AND I no longer feel as if I can *really* help those much further out than my own small core group. I can be kind. I can offer suggestions. I can point to teachings. BUT most people are going to do “their own thing” —

    UNLESS they a smack up against a wall and honestly want change.

    IMHO — best to you Sam. You are one smart/tough/good woman


  271. I doubt this will get thru, but Oracle, GET A GRIP! You want Tony arrested for Backpage huh? Do you even have a CLUE what you are talking about or how Backpage works? Do you know how many papers around the country carry it? If so, you should be calling for all of them to arrested for “running brothels (which is NOT what is happening)”. Btw, the same free speech rights that have let backpage run are the exact same rights that allows Marty to run his blog. Otherwise nobody would host Martys blog cos the church could run to wordpress and say we are going to hold you responsible for everything Marty says…and everything his commenters say.

  272. How does Backpage work?


  273. Free Speech? I have a grip. I’m all for free speech. I don’t even have a problem with brothels. I have a problem with human trafficking, kidnapping, child abuse, child torture, and profiting off the misery of displaced children. I have a problem with pimps. Compulsory prostitution. And I am not the only one. There are laws in every state about it. If you regard this as “free speech”, you have a criminal mind. In fact you have a felony mind. Because some of these felonies with up to 25 year prison sentences. You clearly have not done any research or read any of the documents or testimony given in the law suits. This is not about free speech. It is about enslavement and profiting off of other people’s misery. And this has nothing to do with Marty or his blog. Promoting the prostitution of a child under the age of 11 and compelling prostitution are class B felonies, punishable by up to 25 years’ imprisonment and a fine of up to $5,000 or double the amount of money the defendant made from the crime.

    Advancing prostitution by force or intimidation and promoting the prostitution of a person under the age of 16 are class C felonies, punishable by up to 15 years in prison and a fine of up to $5,000 or double the amount of money the defendant gained from the crime. Sex offender registration

    People convicted of promoting or compelling the prostitution of children under the age of 17 must register as sex offenders in New York.

    Whether you are O.K. with it or not.

  274. “Raking in millions of dollars from the trafficking and exploitation of vulnerable victims is outrageous, despicable and illegal,” California Attorney General Kamala Harris said in a statement. “Backpage and its executives purposefully and unlawfully designed Backpage to be the world’s top online brothel.”

  275. And although you are cheerful about these conditions, and consider it “free speech”, 51 Attorney Generals, 19 senators, 600 religious leaders, 1/4 of a million people who have signed a petition, Anderson Cooper, the authorities in Texas and California, and myself, are not feeling it.

  276. A newspaper Tony was working for in Phoenix, bought the Village Voice newspaper which was folding. They sent Tony in to fire most of the staff and kept the newspaper in print with a skeleton crew, as a cover, And made money through the sex and drug ads connected to the online media advertising. Which was in no small part human trafficking of minors.

  277. And Tony Ortega, for YEARS, was promoting and compelling the prostitution of children under the age of 17, through an online service.

    And therefore, should be registered as a sex offender. And acknowledged for his contributions to society.

    Prison? I don’t think any man or woman should be kept in a cage. But I think he should get booked, have a mug shot, be registered as a sex offender. I think he should be outed formally as a pimp. Because this is exactly what he was doing. And people have been complaining about it for YEARS. He actually waded through a sea of protesters in New York to pick up an award he was offered. Had no problems with it.

  278. He was even called out by another newspaper for his operation freak out on Ashton Kutcher .

  279. And they made millions upon millions of dollars, pimping. Through an online media page. This is how Tony met payroll, and earned his living.

  280. In fact, Alicia Keys, members of Pearl Jam and Alabama Shakes, and Talib Kweli, REM’s bassist Mike Mills, Daniel Bedingfield, Rosanne Cash, and The Roots aren’t feeling it.

  281. The first staff Tony eliminated when he took over the operation of the Village Voice, were any people that might be sympathetic to the plight of being pimped.

  282. “Scott is referring to the long-term campaign Oracle, which Alan was a part of in the early 2000’s.”

    Scott also linked to this post of Alan’s from this period. We see evidence of a campaign to collect dossiers on Alan and other freezoners including myself to be placed on the Mcclaughreys website HASI.

    Alan C. Walter
    OSA., RonsORG., M V & J gang are at it again: Was: Additions coming soon to existing files at HASI

    “Virginia” wrote in message…
    > Additions are coming soon to the following files:
    > Alan C. Walter
    > Basic Basic
    > Rey Robles
    > Joe Harrington
    > Bernd Luebeck
    Our crimes are we disagreed with Mike and Virginia…….obviously we are
    Agents Provocateurs from somewhere. (Markab seems to be their chosen
    location.) [snip]

  283. Will Chee Chalker, mother and housewife, chip in with legal advice? This way maybe one of her children can become an asset to backpage at a later date?

    Will Harpoona Frittata, son of an attorney, and later, a Superior Court judge, be able to use connections to free the pimps?

    I guess we will just have to wait and see.

  284. TO, as long as he’s attacking Ron Hubbard and Scientology, the ASC won’t care about his disgusting sex crimes, will actively deny them and will continue to hug and worship him.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  285. And God help the children who’s prayers go unanswered because our deaf dumb and blind consider their torture, “Free Speech”.

  286. Another article about Karen de la Carriere of interest for anyone that wants to know about her backdoor dealings:

    Careless Karen’s Collection

    Karen de la Carriere exploits people who are obviously telling her either made up or extremely exaggerated stories. See the below images as an example.

  287. See, the CEO of Backpage, pimp, was already making money off the torture and degradation of women and children. Then he got greedy and set up his corporate headquarters in Texas to avoid state taxes on it. That is real greed.

    Anyway, if you all will excuse me now. I need to continue my own little parlay, through my own resources, media resources, activists and politicians.

  288. Mark,

    Come off it man. Is this really you? It is so transparent that you are just doing what Karen asked you to. Has Jeffrey found better things to do with him time (those OTVIIIisgrt posts must take SOOOOO much time to write after all). It looks like Karen has found a new person to prop up her PR here on Marty’s blog. Are you her new attack dog? Seriously you sound like one of the Inch Wives clamoring to defend DM.

    Did Karen not refuse to allow people to post in the Outer Banks about Marty (but then made an exception for ESMB mod Emma)?

    Did the mods of The Outer Banks insist that people didn’t have a right to know about my Welcome To the Outer Banks blog, even after individuals suggested that members should know their information is out there?

    Is Karen telling you what to do and say when you post here the way she did with Sam Freeman, Jeffrey and so many of her other sycophants?

    You know these things are all true. Why do you keep doing her bidding and defending her?

  289. Wishful Navigator I view you as a whistleblower for releasing screenshots from Karen’s personal playground group The Outer Banks. I find it very ironic that you were kicked from that group for whistleblowing when Karen considers herself a whistleblower.

  290. Ok. So this guy that got arrested recently, where does he fit into this? Was he working for Tony or something at some point?

  291. miscavigeisscaredofsam

    I re-think stuff all the time :- good for the evolution of the soul don’t you think? 🙂
    Happy trails to you whatever path you take next and wherever it leads. Been fun chatting x

  292. Looks like a lot of old (16-yr-old) drama there, Terril.

    And note that as I remember, nobody on that (presented out-of-context with no details) list got hurt or fair-gamed. And we note that Terril’s name is not on the list, nor is any evidence presented of any false or harmful information on any of the above.

    You keep “burning the toast” here, Terril, and continue to assert rightness using the pettiest of old trivia.

    Or are you pretending to be ARC broken but covertly trying to position Virginia as something or other? (I believe she described what you are doing to a ‘T’ in another comment).

    So again I have to ask, how do you justify continuing to feed into the OSA ops against Mike & Virginia in which their Dad just lost (again) another contract work assignment due to fair-gaming?

    When is enough, enough?

  293. Hey George!!!!!

    Sounds like you had a wonderful experience with a great soul. What a blessing eh?
    I’ve known personally one monk who was a direct student of Yogananda’s. He was my minister. He was amazing. The things he did or more accurately, the things that happened around him, were amazing!lol!

    So glad to talk to another sailor on those seas. Thanks for sharing,

    What is his name? If you don’t mind.

  294. Oh Oracle, Oracle. There you go again, jumping to many false conclusions about the situation, me and what my opinion is.
    For the record-No, I am not in favor of the trafficking of anybody, but especially children. The guy that runs BP is a pig; he knew criminals were abusing his service and did not do nearly enough to stop it. They had monitors of some type, but he cared more about the cash. His other alternative was to ditch the sex ads part of his web page (like Craigslist did-yes, CL was doing this exact same thing for years), but he chose not to and I have no sympathy for the guy. The reason this might finally succeed is they are using diff laws (not free speech ones) to go after him with this time.
    Why does this fall under free speech? Cause for years the people trying to shut this guy down were also trying to shut down free speech. Again, if they had won, Marty’s site would NOT be here (not to mention millions more). You can read more about that here as it has been argued and argued back and forth forever.
    For those wondering what the heck does this fave to do with TO? NOTHING. He is just one of, probably hundreds, that happened to work for a paper (worked at, did not OWN the paper) company that took money for publishing BP in print form and digital form. So, instead of directing her anger at the wrong target she should take the issue up with the OWNERS of said papers (of which there are still many this very day) and boycott them and make her complaint known. The owners of said papers are the ones that would have to make the decision to drop them or not. Holding TO responsible is just as dumb as holding any other employee that works for any of these papers.

  295. He is the CEO and owner of Backpage. He does not work for anybody but himself. There is NO connection except for the one in Oracle’s head.

  296. So, you banned me for questioning the “ASC” bullshit?
    Too much truth for you, right?

  297. Oops. I think my question is backwards. I meant to say… Was Tony actually working for this guy at some point, when the Voice got taken over by this Backpage?

    Ie: Was this guy the CEO back then?

  298. Mark C. Rathbun

    No. Frame an intelligent communication.

  299. Hi Brian,
    His name is Bhante(Reverend) Miththa (friend).
    He is currently in Arizona, but will be back in Sri Lanka next month.
    We have his e-mail and my wife is expecting to go to Sri Lanka first and meet with him at that time.
    He does not give instructions through any media. His insists on personal contact. That’s why we are on the way to Sri Lanka. He is very quick, moves along and explains in an easy to understand way.
    Much Metta,

  300. “And note that as I remember, nobody on that (presented out-of-context with no details) list got hurt or fair-gamed. And we note that Terril’s name is not on the list, nor is any evidence presented of any false or harmful information on any of the above.”

    As you are asking nicely. I am more widely known on the net by the name basicbasic from my e-mail handle, and in fact sign e mails bb. I was in fact the first name on the Mcclaughreys list. I was never hurt by the Mcclaughreys myself. Alan Walter is another story. A lurid story about him of sex with a minor was posted by Virginia on the yahoo group COSI [Church of Scientology Investigation] this forum was deleted so can’t now be accessed. Back then was the largest freezone forum. Below a couple of posts relating to this event that appeared on Alt Religion Scientology usenet forum. It is well known that OSA collects data from confessional folders. You yourself said that you as a DSA were involved with investigations into Alan Walter.

    It was I who told Virginia that it was inappropriate for Alan to not be faced with his accusers. Prior to Virginia posting the slander she had received she inquired if anyone had any dirt on Alan. I don’t think Virginia was
    working with OSA but was played by them. These dossiers on their
    HASI website was for collecting data so as to sue Freezoners.

    acw — wis……@cyber Inline image
    A couple of days ago I received several forward messages of a Black Pr post put out on another list.
    So far 17 outraged people from that list have forwarded me this message.
    In it contains what I call Secret Coded Messages.
    That is certain phrases that psychotic SPs would fixate on as evidence of
    ones evil.
    In the early 70’s we – the upper level auditors suspected that the folders
    were being culled for withholds and misdeeds for future blackmail or dead
    agenting purposes by the USGO’s and maybe GO’s Offices World Wide.
    A secret cadre of us auditors began to plant false withholds and misdeeds,
    easily handled as they contained dropped out time or obviously stupid false
    There were many malicious people in the GO and USGO as there were in the SO. One of the question asked of me was: Have you ever had sex with a minor? Of course I had – I lost my virginity at the age of nine. Having been properly seduced by a thirteen year old girl. It happened in 1944, in North Wales whilst I lived there in a foster home after having been evacuated from London very close to the end of WW II.
    The auditor and I agreed to not state WHEN this occurred and how old I was, plus we added three secret coded messages to the incident.
    One of the coded messages being: “A 1 inch penis.” Fairly standard for nine year olds. The other two I will keep secret as they are good indicators of OSA activities. Guess what showed up in the Black Pr messages of a couple of days ago? Yes the above coded messages. Words that could only have come from my pc folder. Now most nine year old boys have small penii. Obviously being seduced by a girl who is 13 is sex with a minor. Of course the idea of the “who the fuck does Acey think he is ” having a 1 incher and seducing a minor must have driven every SP GO and USGO staff member crazy with malicious delight! : – )
    Knowing how your supposed friends think is always helpful.
    That I was the target of a black op’s mission run out of the Pac Area GO and the USGO’s office starting in 1973 is a well known fact.
    Also that there was collusion by two people who wanted to take over my
    Missions is also a known fact. What you don’t know is this all occurred while I was at Flag getting my L’s. Also what you don’t know is LRH sent me home in a hurry as we (LRH and I) had found out about the Black Pr and Ops being run on me. You see the fools sent what you basically posted up lines to Flag. I won’t tell you how we found out as that is another thrilling story in of itself.
    What you also do not know is that several people were comm eved from the LA Org GO’s office for spreading false and malicious data about me…….the same data you just spread.
    My two would be Mission thieves were David Stokes and Bobby Jarrel who
    actually went into the Missions and told the wonderful tales about me and my SSTROP’s. They had been hatted by the LA Orgs GO which of course contained the famous coded messages. Yes even LRH and MSH wanted to know about my 1 incher……..LRH roared with laughter when I told him the story. David was assigned Treason for planting the false stories and data and worked through the conditions.
    Bobby Jarrel went insane and died a couple of years later at age 25.
    You see my coded messages forced the GO and the SO to disavow their own Op and operatives because of the backflash connected to using data out of folders.
    That they used false data also made them look like a bunch of fools.
    There is of course much more to this…..but I will keep you guessing.
    Brighten your day.

    Posted on the 25th of March. 2001
    Dear Readers/Members of COSI,
    It has been brought to my attention that Alan has not been faced with his
    accuser, only the accusation, which is an injustice.
    This is an excellent point.
    Per HCOPL Injustice; Justice would consist of facing the accused with both
    the accuser and the accusation.
    In consideration of the above, and after requesting the accuser (my source)
    to face Alan with the accusation theirselves (and this was not agreed to at
    this time);
    I am deleting all relevant posts regarding this, from COSI archives.
    And as the Source(s) have not as yet faced their accused with both the
    accusation and the accuser, I cannot in good conscience participate in such
    an activity where directness is not forthcoming from the source.
    If the source wishes to make such accusations, they will have to do so
    themselves, from this point forward.

  301. See my rephrased question below. My boo boo. In short, did Tony ever work FOR or UNDER this guy when Tony was editor of Village Voice?

  302. I think this is the potential pitfall:

    When someone creates a nickname/ acronym for other people, it’s going to create disharmony, confuse n00bs, and in general cause problems.

    It’s like when Op Clambake msgboard regulars referred to “the flying monkeys” as a designation for a number of other forum regulars they didn’t like.

    Or when another dude saw a file name on a website and started this whole thing about a Buttersquash conspiracy. Again, this ended up being a nick for people whom OTHER people didn’t like.

    Or a lady who someone ELSE disdained, got nicknamed gypsy queen. This got taken up, too.

    Cof$ referred to some imaginary cabal (because the cult hated the newsgroup alt.religion.scientology) as the ARSCC (ARS Central Committee). No such thing. Though we did have fun referring to the ARSCC(wdne) – “which does not exist”.

    Now we’ve got ASC. Pithy, yeah, but it’s a label.

    None of these appellations are what the various people, cliques, factions call themselves.

    My suggestion is to refer to people as what they call themselves. If they call themselves The Merry Pranksters, cool. Call them that. Or their names. Jim, Carol, etc. But if a person creates labels phrased as proper nouns and names for other people, it creates an even more divisive milieu.

    We’re all free to like or not like this or that person and/or their views. Do we have to make things tougher with labels they didn’t agree to?

  303. I agree. Many people were attracted to this theater, through Dianetics Modern Science of Mental Health. So, there are many people that gravitate in, seeking “mental health”. In other words, people with mental health concerns. You can beat yourself head against a wall until it is bloody trying to make sense of things that happen in this theater. People that write success stories and then decide they were damaged a few days later. People that stand on one side, then shift quickly to another. People who think with “A” on Monday and then “Z” in the same place on Friday. But at the end of the day, if you just sit down and realize there are a lot of mentally ill people scatted through out this theater, you can just let it go. Celebrities forever have had to deal with mentally ill people obsessed or stalking them. 9/11 was bought on by mentally ill people. There are mentally ill people in this world. Reading the Dianetics Book does not make them sane. Being “Scientologists” does not make them sane. The Church has tried to wedge them out from every angle to the point of making the prices so damned high street people can’t even afford to be involved. They are not just littered through out this theater. Just like someone can have a bad back and not be in top shape, some people can have bent minds and inclinations, wants and needs. But when you are selling “mental health”, you are going to attract mentally ill.

  304. Right, O.K. I got it. All the best.

  305. And if anything looks like mental illness in this theater, it is Tony Ortega’s four year obsession with all things L. Ron Hubbard.

  306. The Village Voice Playfully Responds to Criticism on Adult Adsnew
    When the New York Press was sold to Manhattan Media in early August, the new CEO announced the paper would stop running “explicit” ads. The National Organization for Women and some op-ed writers took that opportunity to put more pressure on the Voice and New York magazine to also stop running the ads. The Voice “fired back by defiantly running eight naked ladies on the cover” a few weeks ago, the New York Observer reports. Editor Tony Ortega tells the Observer that the cheeky cover was his idea. “The subject of our adult ads has been brought up lately in the local press,” Ortega says. “I thought the best response from the newsroom was to poke some fun at ourselves.” Manhattan Media CEO Tom Allon tells the Observer that, while he thinks “the punchline was only clear to a small sliver of their readership,” he’s glad to have stirred up the attention. “Clearly it was a nod to us and to our decision,” he says. “I was flattered that they thought that a decision we made warranted a Voice cover.”

  307. Holding TO responsible is just as dumb as holding any other employee that works for any of these papers”. Tony Ortega BRAGGED about what he was doing and mocked or attacked anyone who criticized him. I didn’t make this up, so I could not “be wrong” about it. It is NEWS. NEWS Tony Ortega MADE. HE claimed responsibility for it flagrantly. Now you announce I am dumb for thinking he is responsible?

  308. Tony worked for him. Kept it all moving. Squashed protesters, and targeted and attacked activists. ” It’s the old hippie ideal of endlessly pushing a lefty agenda to keep up your “movement” cred. Hey, good luck with that. But I live in a cutthroat town, and I have salaries to pay”.

    Tony Ortega

    The salaries were paid through prostitution. At one point, Tony put the brakes on printing the paper!

  309. That was an interesting post. It’s been debated before and I’m sure it will be debated again. As could be expected, there were differing opinions about a religious belief. Yes, I said religious belief. If an experience is objective and real to someone, then that’s the way it is, regardless if someone else sees it as subjective.

    I’m not a Catholic, but I once experienced what I could describe as the Presence of the Holy Spirit. That Presence was neither male nor female, yet very real, very there. Very real. Very there. A devout Catholic might say – yes, of course. An agnostic might say maybe and an atheist might say it was entirely a mental creation. Regardless of which, it did happen.

    Getting there is half the fun?

  310. The Village Voice Playfully Responds to Criticism on Adult Adsnew
    When the New York Press was sold to Manhattan Media in early August, the new CEO announced the paper would stop running “explicit” ads. The National Organization for Women and some op-ed writers took that opportunity to put more pressure on the Voice and New York magazine to also stop running the ads. The Voice “fired back by defiantly running eight naked ladies on the cover” a few weeks ago, the New York Observer reports. Editor Tony Ortega tells the Observer that the cheeky cover was his idea. “The subject of our adult ads has been brought up lately in the local press,” Ortega says. “I thought the best response from the newsroom was to poke some fun at ourselves.” Manhattan Media CEO Tom Allon tells the Observer that, while he thinks “the punchline was only clear to a small sliver of their readership,” he’s glad to have stirred up the attention. “Clearly it was a nod to us and to our decision,” he says. “I was flattered that they thought that a decision we made warranted a Voice cover.”

  311. “If an experience is objective and real to someone, then that’s the way it is, regardless if someone else sees it as subjective.”

    LRH said something very similar:

    “…Such things have relative truth. They have to some a high degree of reality they have to others non-existence.”

    The above quote is from a passage about Para-Scientology (quoted below) in *The Creation of Human Ability* and also in an early tech vol.

    I think LRH would have put body thetans into that category too. Some of the other things he put in the same bin are more surprising:

    “Para-Scientology is that large bin which includes all greater or lesser uncertainties. Here are the questionable things, the things of which the common normal observer cannot be sure with a little study. Here are theories, here are groups of data, even groups commonly accepted as ‘known’.

    “Some of the classified bodies of data which fall in Para-Scientology are: Dianetics, incidents on the ‘whole-track’, the immortality of Man, the existence of God, engrams containing pain and unconsciousness and yet all perception, prenatals, Clears, character and many other things which, even when closely and minutely observed, still are not certain things to those who observe them. Such things have relative truth. They have, to some, a high degree of reality. They have, to others, non-existence. They require a highly specialized system in order to observe them at all. Working with such uncertainties one can produce broad and sweeping results. One can make the ill well again, one can right even the day which went most wrong. But those things which require highly specialized communication systems remain uncertain to many.

    “Because Dianetics is placed in this category does not mean it is disowned. It means simply that it is a specialized thing based on theory which, no matter how workable, requires specialized observation. It does not mean Dianetics will cease to work, but it means that Dianetics is not easily nor quickly forwarded into a complete certainty. Yet Dianetics is more of an exact science than many which have before borne that name. And Dianetics is an intimate part of Scientology, for it is through its special communication processes that the data was won which has become Scientology.

    “Also under the heading of Para-Scientology one would place such things as past lives, mysterious influences, astrology, mysticism, religion, psychology, psychiatry, nuclear physics and any other science based on theory.” (CoHA)

    The “mysterious influences” in the last sentence would seem to include BT’s.

    Thanks for your interesting input.

  312. alternativeviewpoints said,
    “When someone creates a nickname/ acronym for other people, it’s going to create disharmony, confuse n00bs, and in general cause problems.”
    Not to mention, it’s a continuous, intentional insult with a probable motive.

  313. Thank you, Terril.

    I hope we can leave it at that, as far as Virginia is concerned.

    As far as Alan is concerned, that was quite an interesting story, and he was quite an interesting character.

    As DSA CCDallas I was in charge of investigations in my area, including Alan Walter. I never saw that item taken from his counseling folder, nor any others from it, since of course, I was too low on the chain for revealing such a violation of Scientology codes and principles for the street level.

    What I was shown probably came from his confidential sessions and that was a summary of his “LOVE-HATE-PROTECT” buttons (which I will not go into – even if I do come to remember them – it is a nasty practice at the heart of FairGaming).

    The intention was to FairGame Alan, but the actual operations I came to be involved in were mainly to keep tabs on what his Knowledgism group was doing and look for ways he could be hit with complaints to authorities. Several letters were sent to the IRS by church Private Investigator Monte Drake (same guy who put cameras on Marty). Not nice.

    I was called to OSA Int in 2002 to study the folder of Alan Walter (ethics and GO/OSA reports). I realized I was the only one who’d looked at it in a very long time, since everything had been thrown in over the years. It took several days to get it in order!

    In 2004 I was up at OSA Int with PI Monte Drake and church attorney Helena Kobrin (?-I think) and Monte was proposing feeding Alan an e-mail attachment virus with a keystroke logger (this records everything you type on your computer and automatically “reports home”). Helena put on quite the show (for Monte and I) that “we don’t do anything ‘illegal’,” and really chewed him out.

    Naive and uninformed as I was, I suggested that Alan was selling “OT levels” when surveillance reported “briefcase exchanges,” and the lawyer and OSA Int staff feigned fascination at my improbable conspiracy theory. Were they as crazy as my silly assumption, or were they putting on a show for me, the naive zealot? Probably both!

    I knew the guy who infiltrated the Knowledgism group (balding, crazy eyes, fu manchu moustache – I forget his name). All of a sudden he was hospitalized (2004) with a severe illness and did not make it out alive. He did Knowledgism services at the ranch, “volunteered” and made reams of copies of whatever he could when no one was watching. He was typical of the kind of person PIs and Intel agencies hire to do the “dirty work” – able and willing to shut down their conscience for a paycheck.

    I reported on another person who became somewhat of a volunteer infiltrator (minor in role – to Knowledgism) on my ESMB thread, making an apology to Arnie Lerma for participating (with Sylvia – DSA FCDC – in 2002) in the buyout of old website harddrives with chats data and all. This was a guy who worked for Arnie as website developer.

    After getting out of the church (under the radar in 2010 – stayed that way over two years) I read Alan’s fascinating accounts on ESMB ( neatly put them all together) and this is a valuable collection of 60’s and 70’s Scientology history and technical commentary and ideas, and this completely changed my view of Alan.

    Nevertheless, much like LRH (and Alan kind of was “much like LRH” in many ways), he’s struck me as a very complex and multi-faceted persona.

  314. I have trouble seeing what is wrong with Karen posting what she did there(?)

    Seems like the actual outpoints are being diluted here, or that we are being baited to pile on Karen for doing that part of her work which remains commendable – giving people a forum to tell their story.

    I mean, I sometimes post crazy, unbelievable stuff here and Marty lets me tell my story. I don’t feel exploited.

    Again, I don’t see the point in shaming something that really isn’t shameful.

  315. Tony Ortega watched this 12 year old girl testify about being pimped through back page . In May of 2012 and carried on business as usual.

  316. That was an interesting reveal.

  317. Basic-Basic was Terril Park’s name he went by at the time. The rest of your comment is accurate.

  318. You, actually tweeted this: Frodis73 ‏@Frodis73 Apr 7
    The rape of this helpless dog shocks the collective conscience! .

    Then you run over and try to cover up for a fkn pimp who held a platform for children to be raped abused and trafficked for sex.

    You are just as shallow and hypocritical as Tony Ortega. Helen Keller had better vision than you do.

  319. Stick to what you know. Tweeting protests from Cleveland. Attending Howdycon and cal mag.

    You don’t know a damned thing about the Village, the Village Voice, or any part of this arena. Those kids. And in your desire to pretend you have clue, you are just a dev t particle standing in my way of actually getting something decent done for someone.

  320. The above was @Scott.

    I should also add, Scott, that it was no secret that I was disgusted by Alan Walter.

    What probably no one else (besides my husband Mike) knows is what started it.

    It was a series of private messages/emails from Alan to me. What happened in those was enough to turn any woman against him – and that’s all I’m going to say about that.

    I will say that this ended with me roundly rejecting him and making it extremely clear that I wanted no further “private” contact of ANY kind from him.

    It was after that, that people would have noticed the sudden increase in animosity, publicly, from Alan towards me and this was LONG before anything else happened.

    The more that Alan ranted and raged, the more he tried every PR stunt he could think of to punish me for my rejection of him? The more he showed me just how big of an effect just one woman can have when they stand up and say NO to a manipulative and abusive man.

    Terril couldn’t possibly have known that every time he posted about Alan and I, he was reminding me of just how proud I was to be that woman.

    Terril also didn’t know what Alan did.

    Alan knew that I could have, at any time, revealed the full details of what really happened but I never did. I still haven’t. I think he was afraid that I would (or sure that I would) and that was in part fueling all his strutting around lording it over my husband and I (or trying to). I think when he realized that I wasn’t going to, no matter what he did, that’s when he just sort of shut up about us publicly. Nobody makes me do anything I don’t want to do – even when they think they have.

    Why didn’t I reveal it? Because, and this may sound weird, he didn’t deserve it. What I saw in Alan, was a little boy that had been terribly abused and who was still trying to resolve what that did to him. I wasn’t about to jump in with jackboots on THAT particular bandwagon. Nuh uh. No way. No how.

    That said, I am not ashamed of anything I *did* do towards Alan, because believe me, I went easy on him, comparatively.

    Terril is correct in representing that I did destroy the private list posts about Alan, whose content was based on allegations fed to me by a person who still hasn’t had the balls to do it themselves. I did this because as much as Alan disgusted me he deserved to be faced with his accuser – a fact that I publicly admitted.

    Alan knew how “big” of me that was, trust me. And that REALLY pissed him off because only he and I knew just how bad, in comparison to me, that made him look – to himself.

    I had the chutzpah to PUBLICLY own up to the fact that Alan deserved to face his accuser, but Alan couldn’t even get the balls together to do anything even vaguely similar to me privately, let alone publicly.

    So…there was me, and there was Alan looking like a little pathetic spineless excuse for a man. He knew it, I knew it, and he knew I knew it. That was enough.

    Note: It was Terril that brought up the point about Alan couldn’t face his accuser, and he doesn’t seem to even remember that I thanked him for it!

    But, I did, and I still do.


  321. Laws need to be passed about this kind of thing because there are people that do live off other people’s misery and profit by it. As a civilization we have a duty to care for our children. Not pimp them all over the Internet to make payroll.

    You let the legal authorities decide who contributed to this and who needs to answer for it. Because once there are convictions, laws will be passed.

    Trying to cover it up because it is an inconvenient truth, you just pave the road for more suffering for more women and children.

  322. Don’t shoot me for asking you this, but I was curious if you had ever asked Tony about any of this directly (private email, etc.) ?


  323. The ONLY difference between Tony Ortega and the CEO of that company, is that one made more money than the other. They both made made their income from the same thing. Prostitution. After Tony made payroll and operating expenses, the rest went north to the Don. But Tony was in charge of advertising.

    An editor-in-chief is a publication’s editorial leader, having final responsibility for all operations and policies. I have no idea if he was on fixed salary because of his precarious side line, (pimping through the Internet) or commission. Or pay plus bonus’.

    But if you go out and buy a home tomorrow. And drop five kilos of heroin in that home. And then 30 people to bag it up and distribute it. Do you honestly think when the cops raid that place, they do so with the idea that the “staff” have NOTHING to do with it because their name is not on the title of the house?

    Or do you just flex your willingness for criminality with Tony Ortega?

  324. If he ever comes to the LA area could you let me know? I am a wiseman/women groupie.

    I love learning from those who know more than me. Though I have a preceptor (teacher) Yogananda, I’ve learned through him to learn from everybody.

    Much Metta🙏

  325. Please don’t confuse me with Free Being Me. Not the same person.

  326. I have never had a private or email conversation with Tony Ortega. I’m not uppity about the company I keep, but I do have standards.

  327. Ditto about Tony Ortega.

  328. And in case you were not paying attention, the CEO bust was the first ripple. Three have been put in a cage so far. The other two were also “just staff” like Tony Ortega.

  329. Two thumbs up, Doloras!

  330. Two thumbs up, Al!

  331. Ok. Like I said – just curious.

  332. The philosophical question we need to be asking ourselves, as a people. And one I think could open the door, to some fresh answers and results, is, “Why are women’s rain coats so ugly”?

    You can shop, and shop, and shop shop shop, for decades! And never find a good looking woman’s rain coat. We can put a man on the moon.We can clear people of unwanted attitudes, emotions, maybe a few minds here and there. We can build spy drones.

    But just try to get on top of this science, of building an aesthetic rain coat for a female, and we are,, just baffled all to hell! It has never been done!

    No wonder people do not want to go outside when it rains. For what? To look at ugly rain coats? No wonder there is a drought! No one wants rain, to go out and look at ugly rain gear!

    This is an undertaking, that has caused mankind to hide and shrivel into dark alleys and race to taxi cabs since time began.

    Everything else in my life, has been made possible.

    This, is still an impossibility with matter, energy, space and time.

  333. Scott – did you ever hear about anything about us back then, ops-wise etc.?

    – Virginia

  334. Scott, I didn’t read those yet because I’m working on that scientology/CIA agent FBI doc. So, would you mind telling me what were they about (in a nutshell)?

  335. Tony Ortega was still parked at his executive desk pimping hard when this video was made. If this is what they pulled out of Denver in one night, can you imagine what Tony had conjured up in N.Y.C.?

  336. Oh, SORRY! Video available here at the right bottom. Under story of Washington teens suing BACKPAGE Village Voice.

  337. Hi Brian,
    No problem. We will keep you posted. We will follow him closely.

  338. Yes!! And we are all unique no matter our color, height, religion, chemistry, job, hair style, finances, house, friends, or nickname.

    Rolling a group of people who are as diverse as every snowflake into one “Name It All” label is extremely shortsighted.

  339. This was just a story of someone leaving Scientology – typical of what Karen posts to Outer Banks, and actually a public service and a help.

    The only thing wrong with Outer Banks, really, is what it *won’t* publish or discuss, as we’ve been over a couple examples of, here. The “agenda” and “party line” that comes with “membership.”

  340. George Layton

    Or WOG, in the context hubbard used it.

  341. singanddanceall

    I suggest starting your own company to make rain coats not ugly.

  342. It’s still a man’s world, I guess. Years ago someone invented suspenders for men like myself with skinny hips which makes it difficult to keep up my pants with a belt. However, some designers have come up with attractive versions which look quite nice on women. Many opportunities there for color coordination.

  343. Sadly enough, it seems female raincoats will only remain functional and not stylish. Seasonal decorated suspenders which most men wouldn’t wear would provide an inroad for female equality in suspenders.

    from wiki – . . . modern suspenders were first invented in 1820 by Albert Thurston . . . suspenders have been in and out of fashion in the last century . . . good quality smart suspenders were traditionally considered white collar or upper or upper-middle class wear . . . In the 2000s it has become fashionable for some younger women to wear suspenders . . . Eurythnics vocalist Annie Lennox whose fashion styling was akin to cross dressing as a male character

  344. I was on the “need to know” system of compartmented intelligence as far as OSA security, so no, I never heard a word.

    But in HCO Dallas back in 2001, the name “Virginia McClaughry” was said in hushed tones on pale lips. (LOL)

  345. Not to start a political ruckus, but kinda like the convinced Donald Trump fans, who support him no matter what he is caught saying or doing. So it is with Tony O’trump. I think the hats and t-shirts that say Make America Grope Again are funny. That would actually be better than starting a war with Russia, for instance, or increased bombing of Syria. IMO. The political stage this time around is the best entertainment on all of TV.

  346. Tony Ortega BRAGS about Backpage and this heifer claims he has “nothing to do with it”.

    “Seven years ago, the people I work for were smart enough to start, a competitor to Craigslist,” the Voice’s Tony Ortega, who authored a number of stories criticizing concerns over sex trafficking on American shores as nothing more than “mass paranoia,” wrote in July. “What happens when two adults find each other through I couldn’t tell you … [It] exists solely so that people can freely express themselves—sometimes in ways that make other people uncomfortable. We’re First Amendment extremists that way. Always have been.”

    Notice, WE. The WE? “We’re First Amendment extremists that way”.

    Calls me dumb.

  347. Yep. That “wog” moniker has always irritated me a bit. It really means, anyone who disagrees with ME, the holy Hubbard.

  348. from the topic – ” . . .the ASC’s daily anti-scientology meme creator . . . ”

    from – Word Origin and History for meme:

    n. 1976, introduced by evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins in “The Selfish Gene”, coined by him from Greek sources, e.g. memeisthai “to imitate”

    “We need a name for the new replicator, a noun that conveys the idea of a unit of cultural transmission, or a unit of imitation. ‘Mimene’ comes from a suitable Greek root, but I want a monosyllable that sounds a bit like ‘gene’. I hope my classicist friends will forgive me if I abbreviate mimeme to meme. If it is any consolation, it could alternately be thought of as relating to ‘memory’.” Richard Dawkins, “The Selfish Gene” 1976

    A daily memory

  349. BTW, Monty Drake & Associates, Inc. has recently forfeited the right to do business in Texas. I don’t know if that means the company is gone or just missed filing paperwork.

  350. I appreciate your emphasis on caring for the Scientologists and helping them to escape any evil in the organization that makes them hate living under its oppression.

    I watched the My Scientology Movie and came away with questions. Did LRH physically abuse Miscavige and other underlings the way Miscavige and you have? What will it take to get Miscavige and his subordinate physical abusers imprisoned, where they belong?

    I think The Volunteer Minister’s Handbook provides excellent tools for helping others. Do you agree? Why did Miscavige replace it with the Scientology Handbook? Why did he revise all of those basic books? Was that part of his deal with the IRS?

  351. Mmmmm, Cat Daddy. I think I know who you are. 🙂

  352. The answer is that reports of physical abuse from LRH are very few. He did however, create an environment and certain policy (Flag Orders) that would condone and enable such a culture of abuse, though almost certainly not to the extent David Miscavige has taken it.

    Vol. Min. Handbook and Scn Hbk – both good resources. The Scn Handbook was modernized from the VM Handbook. The main thing I would remove from both, is the “lower conditions” which were formed in the most abusive era of Hubbard Scientology, and alongside Disconnection, lay the groundwork for the human drama of behavior modification and thus remain among the most coercive tools for abuse.

    David Miscavige is not likely to be apprehended since certain sectors of the government appear to approve of his management of this new religion which much like the older religions, continues to control people in ways that align with their interests.

    On a more practical note, victims of this abuse do not call the authorities and file reports, so David Miscavige is able to hide behind 1st amendment protections with his victims remaining in a prison of belief.

  353. I think this explains things quite well.

  354. I’ve decided to stop my Scientology watching! But I send Boundless Love & Joy to You & Your Family Forevermore! 😀 ❤

  355. “Why did he revise all of those basic books?”

    I’ve compared a fair amount of the text in older editions to the newest ones, and I don’t see that Miscavige “revised” them in any significant way(s) or to any appreciable extent. Where the new ones differ is in the editing, which is so much better. And editing to make the materials more professional and more readable is something LRH wanted done.

  356. Windhorse this is an Ode to you, Marty and Monique:

    And in that my promisse to Marty

  357. Cornelius Anthonius Martens

    Sinner and Saint

  358. Dont treath others like shit, dont steal and do not kill people.

    Isn’t that enough ?

  359. Reading your mind could be scary, Oracle. Kind of a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde type of thing. . . . . . (joke – hey, you set it up!)

    Miraldi earlier posted a video about morphogenic fields and global consciousness, essentially mind reading or telepathic communication, but I already knew about that by studying The Borg.

    People just won’t give up on these crazy ideas. Here’s an Adult Education course offered in my town this fall:

    *Explore Your Intuition* – Course will include the following: Intuition & Energy, Psychic Protection, Enhancement and Development Techniques, Divination Tools, Psychometry, Mediumship, Past Lives, Paranormal Investigating – (8 weeks – $80.00)

    I might drop in this week and see what they’re up to. I hope they won’t be leery or afraid of an Ex-Scientologist.

  360. Women’s raingear, now THERE’S topic that we can all sink our teeth into!
    I’ve done my my very best to follow your grandiloquent, stream-of-consciousness musings here, but often get confused when you respond to your own posts as if you were another or go on some tangent for days at a time. It’s probably my own intellectual deficits to blame there, so not to worry. However, I do find your posts over on Emma’s Natterblog to be far better organized and coherent, so I mostly read you over there. My question is: If you’re able to communicate effectively and in a far more coherent and well-organized form there, then why not just do the same here?

  361. Cat Daddy : Thank you and Amen to this TOO!

  362. Bye, Marty, I hope you and your family enjoy a peaceful future. I hope your future choices will make your family proud. Ann

  363. Richard, David ST. Lawrence’s book Introducing Sprotual Rescue Technology, and his more recent writings on his blog, I think are are relevant. It is an extension of Upper Level theories and practices and pretty well ties together a lot of what pychics and “intuitives” across the country are talking about. Here is a recent article post, titled “Incorrect names can cause havoc – Body Thetans are not what you have been told”

  364. Some of the sadists and misogynists have gone masochistic. Apparently someone is so over restimulated, they are posting under my Internet name, and disturbing themselves with it over at a natter blog.

    The kick back I am getting from noticing Tony’s Ortega’s crimes, against women and children, would have driven anyone else to the police station with these cell phone texts on my phone.

    No, I am not interested in punishing you. Yes. You can continue to hallucinate that I am punishing you, by creating posts and pretending it is me, for further motivation to harm attack and suppress your fellow man and yourselves.

    No, I am not interested in harming attacking and suppressing you. Thank you for the invitations. I have other priorities, wants and needs at this time.

    No. The threats and harassment and stalking do not concern me, enough to keep my mouth shut about Tony Ortega’s crimes. If college kids on the other side of the country from Tony care enough to stand up and speak out about his violations towards women and children, so can I.

    No. I am not running a can’t have on you by not abusing you. You always get what you demand. You will cross paths with the right persons for your wants and needs. It just isn’t me.

    I’m not concerned about the people parked in Tony’s driveway. And hanging out on Emma’s front porch. If these people took a minute to Google the population of the city they lived in, they would realize how lonely they are. In that the rest of population manages to eek out a living and exchange being exactly who they are with what they have. And they do not feel violently let down because they exist as themselves.

  365. Sounds really interesting. I would love to go. I hope you do go, you will no doubt find very good company and make new friends among the curious.

  366. If only there had been an eleventh commandment. Do not set others up for losses.

  367. And I point out, these kids in this video, are young Latino children. Educating themselves at this university. They have standards, they care, they are working towards a better world.

    And it is sickening that they are opposed by fat, greedy, slothful, middle aged or senior citizens, white people, that somehow got hold of a computer and an Internet connection, and are rallying behind this pimp parked in New York complaining about human abuses. Sending threat texts through their dentures and dental implants. Wheezing through their lap bands and breast implants.

    This is exactly how crazy it can get with the mentally ill and ethically deficient, with inclinations towards ethnic cleansing.

    When they become an added BURDEN, to the children in this world. Not because of infirmity. Because of they are and the choices they make. When they have to make this world dirtier, than the way they found it. And that is the legacy they pass on to these children.

  368. Begging for abuse. Begging for attention. Spending your energy to disturb and disseminate false reports. At your age. And who was supposed to turn you into an all aware genius super person? The Church of Scientology? Guess what? It is not going to happen. Left parked in a room with only your computer you manage to make this atmosphere murkier. You generate ill will given a simple Internet connection. I bet any amount of money, you misuse your own refrigerator to make yourself sick. But let me guess, someone else was supposed to build you a stairway to heaven? Wave a wand and park you in a paradise? Actually, try to separate you, from you, long enough to have some kind of win in this world?

  369. I do understand how frustrating it can be, when you can not reframe your struggles as growing pains. Because you have never outgrown your juvenile mind.

  370. Your “wins”, come from setting other people for losses. And let me guess, you are bitter because someone set you up for a loss?

  371. Let me guess. Someone feeding you the cognitions doesn’t even make things clearer in your head?

  372. That is excellent TO — I concur.

    And how about this?

    There is a Tibetan buddhist pith instruction:

    “Don’t wait in ambush” Commentary by Pema Chodron: “Don’t wait for the moment when someone you don’t like is weak to let them have it. This may bring immediate satisfaction, but in the long run it poisons you.”

    (BTW — these sayings were out of print with commentary by Pema for years and go back on sale through Shambhala Publications OR Amazon I think late November — they are fabulouso!!)

    PS: I don’t get a commission (inside joke for those of us ONCE IN)

  373. Oh! And the purpose of Emma’s “natterblog”, is to harm, attack, suppress, degrade fairgame and set people up for losses why? Because she was mistreated? Right. I recall now. And the purpose of Tony’s blog is to expose human abuses and human trafficking by harming attacking suppressing fairgaming stalking slandering ridiculing and bullying people. Right, I remember now. But this theater has gone on long enough for people to notice what total hypocrites and ill intentioned people are managing in these parts as a circus. Under the banner of “justice”. You can fool some of people some of the time……etc etc.

  374. “The most likable person ever” – Cat Daddy

    Me? Depending upon whom you ask in the ASC, Freezone and Independent Scientologist communities, some people portray me as one of the least likeable persons, ever.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  375. Alonzo, someone called me at work today from a cluster of church members and demanded to speak to me only (as they do every week, every other week, every 2 days, twice in 1 day) my fellow staff are familiar with these nuisances. We are not calling the police or anything though, although one worker suggested it. The guy on the phone asked me if he could come in and “buy some dog dooky” mumbled something disgusting under his breath and hung up. Could htis be PART of the reason why the Church of Scientology fails? 🙂

  376. At the end of the day, it is just another day with another SP on my lines. Ho hum. Next?

  377. And of all the new bullshit and hallucinations, the spin and false reports, according to a Palm Beach newspaper, Paulette Cooper, “got involved in (Scientology) the late ’60s, when she was studying comparative religion at Harvard”.

    She wasn’t running around Manhattan boozing it up, stalking celebrities for the National Enquirer, having affairs with married men and fucking everything warm with a heart beat. She wasn’t looking for a scoop to sell and popping pills. Noooooooooooo.

    She was an upstanding Harvard student studying comparative religion! And of course, Tony Ortega is fearless!

    What this guy Ortega won’t sell to push a book on Palm Beach public! Paulette Cooper a Harvard student!

    It doesn’t get thicker than that!

  378. This falls right in lines with his:

    Pimping is first amendment integrity.
    He is a former Scientologist.
    He is a Scientology expert.
    He worked on the documentary “Going Clear”.
    He has been writing about Scientology since 1995.

    This guy can reinvent years of history in an afternoon. And actually get people to print it , believe it, and repeat it.

  379. I mean, this guy Ortega is not qualified for civic duty, to give testimony in a court room. His lies and bullshit and reckless disregard for the truth, exclude him from being qualified to be trusted in a court of law. How will he find employment as a journalist?

    Yet he’s got these readers. I don’t think they care whether they are reading anything factual or not. Look at the witch hunt he put on Monique. They still are not mentioning the evidence he promised them. Could not care less that he lied.

  380. “NatterKing” – an OSA/churchie handle if I ever did see one, apparently wants our prize writer, The Oracle, to let up on Tony Ortega and stop showing the world that Independents can and should be taking the moral high ground and putting an end to the amoral, destructive infighting that has given David Miscavige and his criminal masters peace and comfort – by first calling out its leading criminals, something that too few dare to step up and do.

    The Oracle is currently leading the way here – hence the choppy shot at her, and appeal to conform to the sector of the ASC that has lost its way to the easy slide downwards.

    It is too easy to put down and destroy, and so difficult to build each other up. And when enough people see it that way and/or they return with a renewed vigor to build something effective, then and only then will criminals David Miscavige and Tony Ortega have something to really fear.

    Until then, I guess we’ll continue to see decency marginalized. (We wouldn’t want to see use of ARC, correctly assigned targets, and truly ethical behavior directed at correct targets now, would we?
    That’s too much like Scientology and we don’t do -that- anymore…)

    Newsflash – Hubbard Scientology hath no monopoly on morality, decency, ethics, communication formula, criminality detection “indicators,” or helpful methodologies. But it’s almost as though the ASC community both consciously and unconsciously wishes to grant such a monopoly, and attack those who dare to think with the whole panorama of life tools at the disposal of one who has such a full access, having stepped away from said monopoly.

    The ASC community around Tony Ortega especially, is on the highway to hell – the wide road of the stampeding who have yielded their critical thinking to the lowest common denominator.

    Rather than bring that chilly spirit of natter here, perhaps they could look back and spot where they decided they no longer needed to act on and demand, something truly effective. Perhaps spotting the people who discouraged – sometimes just by self-centered criminal distraction – that effective path they knew they should be taking, might open some eyes.

    Meanwhile it might help Independents – those few left moving a little higher on the rough, lonely and narrow path to spiritual integrity – the only true route to anything eternal (for the rest shall pass into oblivion) – to remember how the loud, bullying few cried “KSW!” after Hubbard’s dark and dirty secrets came pouring out of the OT VIII courseroom, and proceeded working actively to deny Marty and friends support, demonstrating their religious zealotry with their dogged, righteous insistence that auditing their expensive-as-ever, secret, “upper” levels was going to somehow heal broken hearts and broken families any better than Ortega’s opportunistic and chauvinistic abuse of his bully pulpit.

    Both groups have lost their way so badly that the paltry crew that remains at the ramparts to defend Miscavige and his monopoly, have way too little to do.

    This field is strewn with broken – deeply broken people – some who rightfully deserve a break and should not be on these chat zones getting themselves restimulated, and some who need to recognize and use that part of their training and experience that is vitally needed to straighten things out – stepping up according to ability and opportunity to do so. This is a call for responsibility greater and more urgent than any of the previous “greatly, vitally urgent” fake calls that wore us all out (a wickedly evil purpose all along, it was). By “responsibility” here is meant response-ability – not rushed actions, heroic stupidity or saving planets, but ability to maintain calm as civilization and its religions come crashing down at a critical juncture in man’s history (will we ever let the ruling class concoct such a design for slavery under the guise of “freedom” again? Do they get to sequester and eliminate the best and brightest willing beings to help and sequester some of the best methods yet devised for doing so? Time will tell, and it is nevertheless true – like it or not – that you will find yourself in the eternity and condition you help to create).

    Meanwhile, I am thankful that The Oracle among others, sees it to some extent this way too – enough to shake me out of my own apathy. And if Marty is still at this, you can bet that he’s not fallen into that pit yet, either – and probably is long over any such danger.

    In other words. There are things worth doing and saying and in my opinion, The Oracle is doing and saying some very worthwhile things.

  381. MODERATOR REJECT: J, you are on a dwindling spiral. From koward to kreep. Waiting to see you reach the trifecta, KKK.

  382. Sounds very noble, and I get the idea of honor and dishonor. And these ideas carry a lot of truth, when truth is still possible.

    I have also lived long enough to know, nothing is fair in love and war. These forces ride on purposes, above policy. You have to step away from everything you “know” to manage either.

    Luckily, in this life, I have had to neither lean on ambush, poisons, or enemies in weakened conditions, to prevail. Just the Greyhound Bus Line, the Hudson River Line..And TWA airline.

    Too funny about the commissions!

  383. “I have had to neither lean on ambush, poisons, or enemies in weakened conditions, to prevail. ”

    Me either. Not sure why people think that’s the way things have to be but maybe it’s because the people that rely on such things tend to be extraordinarily obsessed with winning – but what they *really* mean by that is OTHERS LOSING. People like that suck at games or having any kind of real fun, have you noticed?

    Anyway Oracle – I am quite deep into some research work right now and have not been taking any real time away from that, but I did want to stop in for a moment and tell you that I have been enjoying your posts both here and at your blog immensely. You’re one of the bright spots in my day, to be sure.


  384. This is monotonous

  385. further – meme (as a noun) from

    1. a. a cultural item that is transmitted by repetition and replication in a manner analogous to the biological transmission of genes
    b. a cultural item in the form of an image, video, phrase, etc., that is spread via the Internet and often altered in a creative or humorous way

    British dictionary definition
    1. an idea or element of social behavior passed on through generations in a culture, especially by imitation

    I’d say there are a lot of ideas associated with this short word. There is also a short essay of meme as applied to society at the definition at

  386. I agree. But I want to you know something Richard. When I was growing up, nobody had any confront on these people. Or how they preyed on young people. I was in San Francisco growing up in bad neighborhoods, Oakland California, for a while, and mainly New York City. People started standing up for me against this menace when I was 12 years old.

    In San Francisco, there was a young black woman living across the street from me and down a ways. She was from Louisiana. She was a single mother with a young girl that was seven years old. She was also taking care of her elderly mother and her niece, both who lived with her. Her niece was my age and we went to school together. We were twelve. And, for the year I lived there, she was more or less raising me too with the help of her mother. I can’t begin to tell you how she was stalked, threatened, and tormented every time we left the apartment and tried to go somewhere. These pimps even getting on the bus and harassing us to the point where we could not get off the bus to make a transfer if we did not see other people waiting at the bus stop.

    I saw other women beaten on the street. It was worse if we traveled to Oakland where she had friends.

    New York City was worse. You couldn’t walk through the Village or midtown without one of them targeting you, stalking you. And the only way to get rid of them, was to start making a very public scene. Then you would hear threats about how they would kill you next time they spotted you. Or send one of their women to kill you.

    Honestly, they took over entire sections of neighborhoods. They hunted in bus stations and Port Authority. If you were walking, they could follow you for twenty blocks. Tell you how if you didn’t stop they were going to put a knife in your back.

    Luckily, because I was young and I was me, the last thing they wanted was noisy brawl on the street in front of people because that was a prison sentence in flashing neon just screaming at them. I was even able to step into some situations where women were being beaten on the street, and make a scene.

    They were bullies. And they were looking for slaves. And they were slave masters. Most of the women they pimped were so high on drugs they didn’t even know where they were. The pimps were always willing to beat the hell out of anyone smaller than they were. Never, anyone the same size.

    I can’t tell you how many times some other guy who noticed one of them harassing me, stepped in between.

    I doubt anyone reading this blog, or these forums, has any idea what I am talking about and why it is an issue. Especially if they grew up in Orgs and people were just getting pimped by the E.D..Or CMO kids.

    But if you ask me, from what I noticed, most trauma people complain of leaving the Church, if they were on staff, is how they were pimped. The pimps. The slave drivers.

    I’ve said it before. David Miscavige is a pimp. If you read Leah Remini’s book, her main upsets were men in Scientology, coming off as pimps. Especially, Tommy Davies!

    Look what these guys did to Nazanin Boniadi.

    Heber Jentz, “Freedom fighter”, sat at the Int base while David Msicavige tortured his wife and didn’t lift a finger.

    The “all nighters”, the Hole, The hours, the slavery, the slave masters. This is exactly what the engram is in that culture of workers. Pimps and slave masters.

    So, I don’t know how they could then shift under Tony Ortega, for “justice”. When he spent six years enabling this kind of domestic terrorism. How they could volunteer as his, “tipsters”. He is just pimping these people himself. Exploiting them. Profiting off of their misery.

    O.K., It was not the most entertaining thread. But maybe at the end of this chapter, people will understand this kind of slavery. What is really means to have a master.

    I’m leaving some expanded definitions. This is a condition that exists for women and children of our nation. It is called permissible slavery.

    I will leave at this here. Continue my foray through U.S. gov and law enforcement, elsewhere. Tony Ortega will be the most well known name in political and law enforcement circles in New York by the end of this month.

    1. To compromise one’s principles, especially in promoting the interests of another, for personal gain.
    Politicians pimping for campaign contributors.

    2. pimp (pɪmp)
    a spy or informer
    (often foll by: on) to inform (on)
    [of unknown origin]
    Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged.
    1. procurer, go-between, bawd (archaic), white-slaver, pander, panderer, whoremaster (archaic)
    1. procure, sell, tout, solicit, live off immoral earnings .

    Full Definition of pimp
    transitive verb
    : to make use of often dishonorably for one’s own gain or benefit

    A man who beats up women and owns sex slaves.

    To exploit in a dishonorable fashion.

    To exploit.

    Word Origin and History for pimp Expand
    c.1600, of unknown origin, perhaps from Middle French pimpant “alluring in dress, seductive,” present participle of pimper “to dress elegantly” (16c.), from Old French pimpelorer, pipelorer “decorate, color, beautify.” Weekley suggests Middle French pimpreneau, defined in Cotgrave (1611) as “a knave, rascall, varlet, scoundrell,” but Liberman is against this.

    Judging by such recorded meanings of pimp as ‘helper in mines; servant in logging camps,’ this word was originally applied to boys and servants. [Liberman]

    The word also means “informer, stool pigeon” in Australia and New Zealand and in South Africa, where by early 1960s it existed in Swahili form impimpsi. Pimpmobile first recorded 1973 (six years before Popemobile).
    PIMP. A male procurer, or cock bawd; also a small faggot used about London for lighting fires, named from introducing the fire to the coals. [“Dictionary of Buckish Slang, University Wit and Pickpocket Eloquence,” London, 1811]

  387. Here is video for clarification. The woman in this video, was one of the most vile pimps in the Church.

    And this exactly how the pimps in New York used to surround someone in Port Authority. “Damn baby, you’d let your man starve wouldn’t you?”
    “If you were my man, I wouldn’t wait for you to starve, I would poison you.”

    POW! Two weeks with a black eye.

    What do you think Emma is doing right now having people post on her blog as me or Alanzo? Trying to lure me over there. She wants to pimp me. She wants to pimp Alanzo. She wants to exploit someone for applause.

    Right, she has turned into a little Internet pimp. Good luck with that Emma.

    What you see in this video, are pimps harassing what they consider to be a runaway slave.

  388. And Emma is not the only Internet Pimp out here recruiting and building a stable, of people to exploit.

  389. Sorry, when you have women running around dramatizing the valence, it is a situation.

  390. This is a video of protesters in front of Tony Ortega’s office. The man speaking, is the son of the original founder. When he says, a young woman could not speak out herself, because of fear for life, he was telling truth 100%. These were the conditions created by Tony Ortega in New York. Women that could not even speak out against their abusers. For fear of their life.

  391. What I am addressing here, is modern day slavery. And Tony Ortega invested six years of his life into laying down the foundation of it. Nurturing it. Building it. Protecting it. Expanding it. Human Trafficking. He held a platform open for buying, selling, trading, stalking, exploiting and running, human slaves.

    slavemaster – Wiktionary
    Noun[edit]. slavemaster (plural slavemasters). One who owns a slave. One who controls the action of a slave owned by others.

    1. The condition in which one person is owned as property by another and is under the owner’s control, especially in involuntary servitude. 2. a. The practice of owning slaves.

    Tony Ortega, through Backpage, did in fact promote slavery, put people into slavery, and controlled slaves owned by others by marketing them.

    And I think he was hoping someone from the Church would offer to buy that blog from him and pay him off to go away. Or buy the novel he wrote about Paulette Cooper. And pay him to go away.

    The only people paying him are his readers through donations, the ones he exploits for his blog cred.

    Because this guy has no problem personally with human trafficking, exploiting people, selling people and slavery. That was his stock and trade. And he owns it clear as a bell in the protest video above at the University. He brags that he is running the thing.

  392. Meanwhile, I had been made aware of your declaration of war , from the both of you. Heard and understood. I accept! The war is on. All is unfair. I agree with these rules! Don’t get all winy and vic on me now. The Internet is for conversation. Exchanging ideas. War is up close and personal. Thank you for mocking it up! I love these wars where we make our own rules, the ones that we choose.

  393. YOu can say that again.

  394. Thank you Scott. It is OSA but not the Church OSA, the ones that got kicked to the curb and continue to dramatize. The secret police, politicians, and 007’s, of the occult! The media kings of the occult! The movers and shakers!

    Yes, this subject of slavery by Tony Ortega,has pushed some buttons.

    I have received several emails about the natter blog and the attempts to degrade me there.

    I can assure you, I have not looked, and I don’t care. This is how they dabble in injustice. They shoot at the one noticing the crime. Just like they did in the Church when they worked for OSA. This is good so people can see how they really are. This is the best thing that could happen out here this year. The people watching how these people will turn on their own, throw their own under the bus, and cover up for a criminal if he is working for them. At the end of the day, the “Freedom fighters” were a bunch on Internet thugs. Their motto is SUPPRESS SUPPRESS SUPPRESS!

    The longer they sit over there and wallow in sadism, injustice and ill will, against me, the better it will be for all humanity.

    Think of them as fly paper. Things stick to them. Clear the air for the rest.

    It’s all good!

  395. P.S. Hey, have you guys erected a monument for Reed Slatkin yet in the garden?

  396. natterking, P.S. Hey, have you guys erected a monument for Reed Slatkin yet in the garden?

  397. Hey, I know how much you enjoy history and wallowing in “the past”. As you know, many of us sacrificed large paychecks to work in the Sea Org, years of our lives, really set up for some financial losses.

    Did you know some people came into the Sea org with nothing and left very, very, I mean, very wealthy? Yes! Some people actually got RICH being in the Sea Org!

    Well, not many that is for sure. David Miscavige, a few others. I mean if you include the Hubbard family, you could count them on two hands. That is miraculous isn’t it? You really had to be in the right place at the right to exploit the right people.

  398. Hey, NK, by the way I love your philosophy that beyond the confines of religion, there is no right or wrong. Thank you for summoning up this arising. The one where there are no rules, no right or wrong. These are fabulous forces and conditions with no whiny babies, because,we all agree there is no right or wrong. It’s our rules. The ones that we choose. And we enter this on the same terms. The unknown. Welcome to the unknown. The space beyond right and wrong, religion and common ground. Rules and policies. loyalties and allegiances. Where anything and everything is possible, and acceptable. Let’s find out who we really are. In this section of the galaxy. The one where you are King and Queen. And I am just a clueless little crazy Tinkerbelle! XXOO It’s your show!

  399. Nobody condones slavery or human traffiking. My previous issue of Popular Science, sept/oct, highlighted this. Apparrantly only 15 to 20 percent of the internet is accessible in standard google type searches.

    Traffikers are wily and move around the country, use throw away phones, here today gone tomorrow websites, encrypted messages and so on.

    Concerned computer scientists and mathematicians are working with law enforcement, creating algorithims to cross reference these many dark alley internet connections and track down these criminals with some success.

  400. Yes, Good, Bad, Ugly, Brilliant, Stupid, Kind, Mean… I am all these things at different times according to my own feelings or whims. Certain persons constantly insist I am the minion of whomever I happen to agree with or support because the notion that somebody could be a Scientologist and have their own independent free will is heresy and anathema.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  401. That is great news Richard! You just cheered me up! I guess things are getting better in some areas even if they are still rotten in others. This is one reason why I think psychometric science will become huge. Even to the point of identification like finger prints. Like, every person’s aura has to be totally unique, like DNA. Can you imagine if people with really ill will set of little red lights when they enter a room? Laughter!

  402. My identity theft is complete now. I’ll mock up another one.

  403. Hope that worked at great for all! It’s going to be a brand new me!

  404. Thank you lovey, love the socks. Very sexy! Can I interest you in some reflexology? I do a mean toe rub.

  405. Being good isn’t always easy, no matter how hard I try.
    But since you were raised as a Christian,
    I’ll lay down for this fight.
    You win, everything is alright!

  406. Windhorsegallery thank you for ack(ing)nowlwedging me.

    I HATE HILLARY, but I do not want Trump to be thrown upon this earth.

  407. The longer you stay with me, you become family to me.

    I will stll be crooss with you on Scientology

  408. It was a laughs and laughs all around about someone stealing your identity. Glad you see it our way, as petty theft. Like Tony says, we are Freedom of Speech enthusiasts. Sometimes people just express themselves in ways that make other uncomfortable. Thanks for being a good sport J!

  409. THIS …

    Mark embodies this IMHO and many others here …


  410. You miss spell simple words. Yet you spell this name with great understanding of English pronunciation and letter relations.

    The smoke screen for Cat Daddy is a nut case simpleton.

    The reality is anything but.


  411. Just don’t post my replies about Cat Daddy and I will not play find Leroy with you. 🙂
    I’ll respect the fun ruse.

  412. The Ex-Scientologist War is Over!! Peace reigns upon the land!

  413. Mmmm, I love a good mystery to solve.

    Observation (for fun)

    1) Cat Daddy from time to time mis spells very simple words
    2) Cat Daddy just spelled his complex made up name with a flare for proper spelling
    3) Cat Daddy sometimes implies a tweeked persona as if the personality is being created like a story character.

    Deduction: Cat Daddy is not simply a name hiding the person. The persona of Cat Daddy is a fictional person.

    I could be wrong but I could be right. How’s that for certainty!

    So Cat Daddy, what say you?

  414. Speaking of identities, it’s been mentioned before that identities are addressed on one on the “L” Rundowns. It’s also addressed in nondualism as “egoic constructions”. I’ve gone through a lot of changes in my thinking this last year, so in a sense there have been different versions of “me”. There is a pull toward looking back and reflecting on these changes, yet an equal pull toward letting it all go and not even thinking about it. A transcendental dilemma! What’s next!?

  415. Hexagonal Thetan

    About human gullibility

    “Tell people there’s an invisible man in the sky who created the universe, and the vast majority will believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure.”

    ― George Carlin—

  416. One of the reasons it has been a pleasure to share conversations on this blog, is because of Marty’s continued humanity. His kindness. fairness and mercy to all peoples out here, with a platform as long as it has not been abused. My understanding and innate knowingness, that his efforts to make this world a better a place, were sincere in nature. His love for mankind, has prevailed in his efforts and is evident in his past, present, and will be there in his our future. He has kept a very wide distance, from the Scientology War Criminals.

    War crimes are defined in the statute that established the International Criminal Court, which includes: Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions, such as: Willful killing, or causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health. Torture or inhumane treatment.

    Little is known to the public about the civil wars that unfolded in this theater, and the war crimes that took place. That meaning, there were people that became involved in the chaos, and contributed to crimes, abuse and torture towards and against their fellow man, fellow citizens.

    Many of these people are still engaged daily in abuse, domestic terrorism, blackmail. Leaking personal information, as they leaked pre clear data when they were involved as Church police. The same kind of domestic terrorism continues today.

    These people are in fact, Scientology war criminals. They still plague our society with covert domestic terrorism. Threats, blackmail, silencing tools, fair gaming. If one has studied history and social intercourse, every war has been littered with these.

    After the dust settles and the body counts have been tallied, trials usually unfold with witness accounts of the sabotage, torture and abuse, profiteering and treason, that took place in dark alleys, basements, bars, and government safe houses. With the soldiers, commanders, spies and secret police. Tipsters, pimps, black market dealers and slave masters.

    I am not a war criminal. I did not become one under the banner of exploring the occult, living in a commune, religion, war, status, rank, needing attention, “winning”, desperation, ignorance, unawareness, career, fame, glory, history, coins and treasure, or pride. And I will not become one now.

    For those of you that have followed the events of social intercourse, in this Scientology theater, perhaps been lured into acts of sadism or domestic abuse. Harming, attacking, suppressing your fellow man. I suggest you step away from such invitations or motivations. Identities that would qualify you as a war criminal in any arena.

    Personal attacks, harm to your lives or “reputation”, seeking “revenge”, public executions, ethnic cleansing goals and purposes, gang stalking, these are all bought on in peace time. In a nation of peace which is not at war with anyone. With a people that are not in danger as whole.

    When you choose to be a war criminal in these conditions, the over restimulated have infected you. The truth is, it is lonely at the bottom. And each person that can be tortured into that kind of identity, justifies it for the others.

    I am grateful for all of those that remained kind, caring, empathetic, merciful and human, in these strange theaters.

  417. Amen to all of that. And thank you for taking the time to state it so directly and succinctly.

  418. singanddanceall

    what auditing & training have you done in scientology?

    Are you OT8 and have you done all 3 L’s? Are you OEC/FEBC trained?

  419. Hexagonal Thetan

    Mrs. The Oracle, what are your feelings about the harassment of Paulette Cooper?

  420. Loaded Question, Hex-a-0’n…

    Could I point out that The Oracle has addressed the Paulette Cooper question at great length. An Internet search should turn up Oracle’s writings on this point.

  421. chuckbeatty77

    I just bought the book and have started it.

    It would be new news to me, and even though I am no longer a believer in the soul, I still retained the feeling that one’s thoughts did influence one’s physical condition.

    I have to admit having a “Date/Locate” once, which I thought was a great session I have to admit, and I got “well” within 1/2 hour of the session. I had been in Flag’s ISO, and left ISO to go get the session, something done back in 1976 when on pc lines even as a staff member back then.

    Also it was my very first “Date/locate” and the moment of the “blow” of the charge, was a definite physical surging type of “rush” in my body when I had that exact moment of the “blow” during the “Date/Locate.”

    Oh well, I’ll see how she approaches something like Blowdown Moment that I have to admit is a definite physical change I’ve experienced, when I was a pc. And it was thoughts, and the auditing question answering and thinking certain thoughts in relation to the auditing question, blah blah blah.

  422. Haven’t read the book myself yet so couldn’t tell you what she says about things like that. I’m not sure that I’d agree either that thoughts carry no weight “ever” in illness or physicality.

  423. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    Off Topic:

    Finally I read the rcommended Book *the sociopath next door”…
    What a beautiful book. It is totally secular to Religion and gives a good idea of where mankind will arrive at the end….I’m still perplex…

    A question:
    Could it be written in the DNA of Scientology to produce selfish sociopaths and it being one of the main purpose of this whole philosophy ? At least Admin tech is producing sociopaths, what about the philosopy ?
    Why should on be able to control other People or societies at will ?
    Why should one be pan determined and being cause over everything ?

    I still don’t get it that I was so fascinated about those purposes and thinking those are truths and th e whole purpose of life ?

    Why should one win anytime and have the Tools for it ?

  424. This past Saturday I attended an event at a local store which sells incense, crystals and various New Age items. It featured two speakers. The first was a paranormal investigator named Rosalyn Bown. The second speaker was Christopher DiCesare who personally experienced a well documented and publicized haunting 30 years ago called the “CD21 Haunting”, so named for College Dorm #2, room #1. Chris got the nickname in the media at the time of “The Ghost Boy”!

    In chatting with some of the attendees I mentioned my background in scn. I explained that it was an attempt to apply Western technology to Eastern philosophy and religion to raise spiritual awareness. Hopefully that allayed any preconceived notions they may have had that I was and still am a dupe! laughter! I found that they could relate to some of my scn experience and and recent investigations I’ve done of various spiritual/psychic topics on the scn blogs.

    A couple of people there considered themselves “sensitives”. I realized that I’d best be careful about negative thinking around those folks. 🙂

  425. Roger – Speaking for myself, I find that when these type of questions arise, just stepping back for a while often allows it to resolve itself. In other words, now that the “question is clear” the opportunity for intuitive resolution exists, or at least a perspective. This is sort of a contradiction to the scn approach of digging in and seeking an immediate resolution. It might also relate to a “suggestion” on Marty’s earlier Trekking the Middle Path post of “Seek balance of intellect and intuition”

  426. Off topic as well: But I was reading something about the cost of the bridge and I recalled the saying “heavy case”. I started laughing. Its good to laugh.

  427. Hexagonal Thetan

    Good questions.

    I am from Italy. One thing that struck me at the end of my damned 11 years as staff in Scientology was the total absence of love, mutual support and caring for the others in the practical life of the LRH Reign.


    And the only way to show that power, to show that you are a big being totally at cause was to use Ethics presence, threatening to withdraw your ARC (or actually withdrawing it) from others to force them to do things for the cause.

    And what about the mighty OTs bankrupting their businesses and leaving people out of work?

    A cruel race to the top of a mountain, fighting others and leaving corpses on the path, only to find that it was an imaginary mountain.

    What a bad joke!

    At the end of the “Into the wild” movie is given a profound truth that LRH never dreamed of, so lost in his solitary search for power:
    “Happiness is only real when shared”.

    The concept of sharing was extraneous to LRH and that is mirrored in his creation.

  428. The Fourth Way

    HT, I liked your observations. As far as Happiness is only real when it is shared, I can certainly agree that it is more meaningful when shared. Looking our over an amazing vista by oneself may make one happy, but looking out over it with another makes it a much more meaningful experience. We were not meant to be alone. It is not fulfilling. I agree with you that the lure of “OT powers” speaks to the ego of many and thus their “false self” seeking to increase its presence and power. There is no way that this ends well for real “I”. Working to identify and strip away false identities is worthwhile. Having one of those identities energized to become dominant with the lure of obtaining “OT powers” is not the way to self-realization. Offering to help someone find out why and dissolve their need to want “OT powers” would in my view have more benefit but does not attract enough “Big Beings” to be profitable. There are a lot of twisted truths in the new age train wreck that was and is scientology.

  429. Oracle wrote:
    “I am not a war criminal. I did not become one under the banner of exploring the occult, living in a commune, religion, war, status, rank, needing attention, “winning”, ”

    This occult aspect of Scientology was well hidden by Hubbard. Most of the symbology is occult but it it always changed. In fact, one could align Hubbard with Blavatsky as well as Crowley. For example, Hubbard’s “invader forces” are simply a rehash of Blavatsky changed to suit Hubbard’s stories.
    But the icing on cake is the OT VIII data. At the end, Hubbard let it all out. He was going to return to earth as a great politician. I don’t think he was talking about Winnie the Pooh bear. One could assume that Hubbard was intending to return as a Hitler-like personality. Hitler dabbled in the occult the same as Hubbard. Scholars dispute the extent of his involvement but Hitler did not stop Himmler and the SS. Sea org “Rehabilitation” smacks of the Nazi’s.
    Hubbard bloated his body with food; his mind was bloated with the occult from early childhood; he then bloated his ego with esoteric doctrine. He was a mess when he died. I cannot see how Miscavige can call Scientology a “beautiful religion” unless his experience has been protected.

  430. Things weren’t nearly that intense back in the good old days, although they were always there to some extent I suppose. We had the inside scoop on a new science of the mind and were happily pursuing the carrot on the stick.

  431. Ugh – That sounded like advice which I shouldn’t be giving. Others here have a far greater background in science, religion and philosophy than myself. I need to remind myself of what a fellow said one time at an AA meeting. “Here’s my advice. You can have it. I don’t want it.” I always thought that was kind of a Zen statement.

  432. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    Thanks Richard you’re spot on….

  433. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    Hi italian guy

    Thank you for your answer to my question.
    I thought I got rid of those Habits about how to treat People, but after having read above mentionned book I realized I still have some horrible attitudes towards People that were teached in Scientology.
    Now I’m working to get rid rid of rid of this bullshit of judging and obnosing People constantly….How crazy…It amounts to nothing…just being wholly separated from People….
    Why should I do that ? I can talk to them and share my hapiness with them…Why should i control them ?
    You’re so right !

  434. I was wondering how Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein might fit into the scene…

  435. Hey Mark, I am not sure whether this is your blog or even if you read it. I am a brit who’s watched Louis’s documentaries for the last 20 years, always delving into the cultural unknown.

    Despite being a stereotypical banker my trade, I can feel affinity with the search for something else and comprehend how you engaged with Scientology for so long.

    I could also feel your pain through the psychological and actual victimisation you must have experienced since

    All I can say is that I loved your input, I stand with you to help you. Please contact me if you need to speak to someone, just for general chit chat. Make sure you do.


  436. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    “Offering to help someone find out why and dissolve their need to want “OT powers” would in my view have more benefit but does not attract enough “Big Beings” to be profitable”

    Very good comment !

  437. Oracle wrote:
    “I am not a war criminal. I did not become one under the banner of exploring the occult.”

    You are fortunate. IMO, the above statement also strikes at the heart of what Hubbard was all about. It is one thing that he explored the mundane aspects of the occult. He had the right to explore ideas. It is another thing to form an occult organization and paste people into slots. He used the idea that only he had solved the riddle. But fifty years of practice have proven this idea wrong.
    You escaped the razor sharp words that Hubbard used. For example, he probably copied the L’s from Medieval Kabal. They had, as early as the 8th century, solved the ontological problem of being/not being. Pythagoras’ grandfather could exteriorize. Thus Hubbard had no really original ideas. I have found almost 150 links that Hubbard took from Blavatsky. Hubbard had very few original ideas. What motivated him to nail people? What made him try to use words to trap people? IMO, the only plausible answer is that Hubbard had a deep inferiority complex. He had to control a small group. Hubbard really did not pentrate the legacy of the occult. He just went through the motions with it. Glad you escaped!

  438. “I love people who make me laugh. I honestly think it’s the thing I like most, to laugh. It cures a multitude of ills. It’s probably the most important thing in a person.”
    ― Audrey Hepburn

  439. I welcome you into my life

  440. The carrot and the stick have been always been here.

  441. “By wisdom forms he Matter and Space and Time…
    By Energy revolves he all in stress of Change,
    the limitless”

    Aleister Crowley, The Heart of the Master

  442. Hexagonal Thetan

    [—] Now I’m working to get rid rid of rid of this bullshit of judging and obnosing People constantly […]

    I too had (and sometimes still have) this “compulsion” to judge people using what I learned in my scn training.

    Sometimes it had been useful but other times I screw it up in a big way,
    not recognizing problematic people when I should.

    Well … freezoners and standard techies could say that I was not trained properly and had MUs.

    A convenient way to justify the inefficiencies of a Tech that has more holes than a colander.

    Don’t get me wrong: MUs do exist; they existed long before LRH “discovered” them, and they sometimes CAN be a source of problems.

    But the main purpose of the MUs theory and application in the church (and I suspect even in the FZ area) is not to safeguard the understanding but to control dissidents and to prevent
    discussions, debates and free viewpoints exchange … as to say all the things that usually lead to improvements.

  443. GMW – I’d agree with you on where scn ended up, a mystical pursuit to where LRH landed in the upper levels of his invention/copies/imagination etc. However, at the lower levels it seems there were some good intentions to create a self actualized, self aware individual free of hang ups common to many or most people and be able to move forward as a more productive person. I wonder if parts of scn, subject of, could be offered as a self improvement project where someone could simply graduate and move on.

  444. “I wonder if parts of scn, subject of, could be offered as a self improvement project where someone could simply graduate and move on.”

    Yes, Richard, I agree. I wish I had moved on after OT II. That was, IMO, the best place to graduate and move on.
    Also, I would have very much appreciated a sincere, honest statement by Hubbard. Like this:
    “I, Ron Hubbard, explored the occult of Madame Blavatsky, Aleister Crowley, Charles Ledbeater, Annie Bessant, the Kaballists and a few others. I took many ideas from them without credit. I looked at a few history books but claim no real understanding of recorded history. I knew very little about Buddhism so excuse my references. The “5th Invader force” was really an idea I took from Blavatsky and Charles Ledbeater. I also took the idea of the Tone scale from them. Granted, I did change its form to suit my needs so please forgive me. I considered myself as a Clairvoyant but I hid it from everyone with the e-meter. The dates I came up with for OT III and OT VIII are
    occult references. The name Marcabs came from Annie Bessant. She used it in reference to an Egyptian Statesman. I copied it out of a book. Implants were also copied but I am glad to say I updated the idea with electronics. A few of my lectures were copied from Blavatsky. I’m sorry but I did not have time to prepare my own.
    The entire idea of Scientology was an an incomplete cycle of action as a religion. I really did not attend Kant’s lectures in the 19th century. I made that up out of my imagination. Please dress as the anti-Christ this Haloween in memory of me.”
    L Ron Hubbard

  445. Why does the person need to become “a more productive person”?

  446. “But the main purpose of the MUs theory and application in the church (and I suspect even in the FZ area) is not to safeguard the understanding but to control dissidents and to prevent
    discussions, debates and free viewpoints exchange..”

    I’d agree with that assessment.

    It boils down to the lie that that all disagreements are predicated on misunderstanding. This while never addressing the basis of whether there can even be a disagreement with a fact, which theoretically there can’t, and essentially characterizing all facets of scientology, therefore, as being opinion only, which is and interesting point to consider.

    Draconian measures, whether veiled lightly or not, about things which are then characterized as “disagreements” is just plain stupid because whoever does so has just said it’s a differing of opinion.

    Draconian measures, whether veiled lightly or not, even about things which are facts, at the very least could be categorized under failed teaching skills probably nine times out of 10. Probably.

    Scientologists have a tendency to act the same on both facts and opinions, and perhaps that is the primary downfall of the system.

  447. Isn’t it because they (scns) think that facts are part of reality, and reality is just a construct based on postulates and agreements? From there they get to something like “my opinion could be a reality if I just act like it is to reinforce my postulate about it.” I think they conflate real causative and creative “thought” with common ordinary “thinking” which Hubbard called “figure-figure”. In other words, they have an MU! 🙂 MUddled thinking!

  448. “Please dress as the anti-Christ this Halloween in memory of me” – LOL – However, in order for it to be an authentic LRH costume it would need red hair and a pot belly, which is not the traditional concept of the anti-Christ!

    Thanks for your opinion on where you feel would be an exit point for scn. I had a feeling that there would be a logical exit point. I split after Dn Clear so I never did power, original clear or the OT levels. I still have no idea if Dn Clear is the same thing as Original Clear – laughter

    It probably doesn’t matter since either way I got the realization or viewpoint that looking for anything in my past that would affect me in present time was just a joke. When my co-auditor would say “Locate an incident of . . . ” I would burst out laughing. I probably had a floating tone arm and the C/S said give me a Clear Certificate just to get rid of me!

  449. I guess being productive would be included in the standard definition of self-actualized. From – self-actualized, noun, Psychology
    1. the achievement of one’s full potential through creativity, independence, spontaneity, and a grasp of the real world

    Somewher in my thoughts was a reflection on Grade IV Ability Release which included the ability to do new things, which would be “more” productive. I’m not sure if I’m answering your question.

    Someone once posted a 1970 Classification, Gradation and Awareness Chart which I saved. The Grade 0-4 release states were worthy goals imo, but obviously could not be stable and internalized by simply sitting in a chair and answering auditing questions. They would need to be reflected upon and practiced to become stable and internalized.

    On Grade IV Ability Release it states the ability to do new things and (one) can be right or wrong. I’ve known people who would rarely try anything new and also people who would not or could not admit to being wrong. Likewise, for example, an extroverted and communicative person might not gain any great benefit from Grade 0, but a more introverted person might gain benefits.

  450. It seems to be humanly impoosible to honestly laugh and be angry at the same time. Laughing at oneself surely works at times.

  451. I have an idea of why current scn’ists can buy into the idea of build the cathederals first and then they will come.

    Looking at negative trends in civilization such as terrorism, abrupt climate change and so on, someone might assume that humanity will reach a tipping point and people will rush to scn for answers. End of Days scenarios are not uncommon in extremist religions.

  452. I didn’t see anything in that self-actualized definition about being more productive, but from the rest of your answer I think I get what you are looking at.

  453. Lol! I suppose that could be the case.

  454. GMW – Well George, you did it again by mentioning ontology above. (joke)
    Here goes – from

    ontology noun
    1.the branch of metaphysics that studies the nature of existence or being as such. 2.(loosely) metaphysics

    metaphysics noun
    the branch of philosophy that treats of first principles, including ontology and cosmology, and is intimately connected with epistemology. 2. philosophy, especially in its more abstruse branches. 3. the underlying principles of a subject or field of inquiry. 4. (initial capital letter) a treatise (4th century b.c.) by Aristotle, dealing with first principles, the relation of universals to particulars, and the teleological doctrine of causation.

    teleological adjective, Philosophy
    1. of or relating to teleology, the philosophical doctrine that final causes, design, and purpose exist in nature.

    epistemology noun
    1. a branch of philosophy that investigates the origin, nature, methods, and limits of human knowledge.

    cosmology noun
    1. the branch of philosophy dealing with the origin and general structure of the universe with its parts, elements, and laws, and especially with such of its characteristics as space, time, causality, and freedom. 2. the branch of astronomy that deals with the general structure and evolution of the universe.

    Now that that’s all perfectly clear, and with my background in scn, I’m ready to start a new religion. That is unless Marty beats me to it with a mishmash of scn and Taoism. 🙂

  455. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    >If Mu’s theory would be the truth our world would be functionning at all. Many People can’t give definitions of words in what they are doing, nevertheless they are able to do their Jobs.
    I used to give courses in Computer Technology with great success. Only Scientologist weren’t really getting it and had all 3 phenomena of Mu’s as they weren’t able to understand that words in Computer Technology could Change their definitions in very short time.
    Try to clear the word Modem and your head will spin. As Technology changes, the word is still in use but a total different Technology is behind it…
    Honestly with the time I hated to have Scientologist on my courses, as they weren’t able to grasp the most simple things and were asking funny questions…..


  456. P.S.George – Are you compiling your research of Hubbard’s mystical and occult sources into a published work? As the current cherch heads toward being a historical footnote, a written reference of Hubbard’s occult sources would be worthwhile. When I was active 30 plus years ago I recall two or three people asking me if scn was Satanic – laughter

  457. Hi Richard,
    Based on Hubbard’s experience, it should be easy to start a new religion. There are all sorts of spare parts you can use. Hubbard made himself a guru and leader because he refused to give anyone credit for ideas. I am convinced
    that this claim to “source” was his key. Hubbard took from various obscure sources and changed the basic idea. You could start a new religion today by doing what Hubbard did. Take the latest scientific ideas and meld them into the occult. That is what Hubbard did. So “Ether” becomes “theta”. “Magnetism” becomes “electricity”. The basics of Scientology are 3,000 years old. They had the same issues. They just had inferior technology. Implants were known as “thoughts in vehicles” Hubbard changed it to “space ships”. Blavatsky gave Hubbard all of the reasons why he should become the anti-Christ. But the biggest single reason Hubbard could start a religion was the idea of “an almost infinite pool of self-generated data”. He found it in his wild theory of the e-meter and mental image pictures. Once he had this worthless idea, he started each oil well PC like a gusher. He got paid for it.
    Good luck,
    As for me, I’m done with Hubbard and Scientology. You could say transcended.

  458. So many comments!!!!
    Few are good. Wish Barbara Schwartz (or whatever her name is…?) , is here commenting and explaining to us , who Marty really is …!!??

    Marty , please slow down with letting comments go … This place looks silly , now….
    Waste of good posting.

    Big hello from LRHs Bulgravia.

  459. Another idea, Richard
    Many people have talked about “saving the good” of Scientology. I think it might be possible to “reverse engineer” Scientology. Hubbard added so much of a mish-mash of ideas. Most are not even related to each other. It might be possible to just strip the subject back, but who calls the “shots”? Also, when you get back to the basics, you have “pantheism” which was Hubbard’s intent all along. Actually, the OT symbol with the “T” and the circle did stand for pantheism in ancient Kabal. Masons and others might have changed the meaning. I do not know. You also get really weird interpretations of spirits which are confusing since they sort of agree to the universe like illuminati or more like Theosophic “ascending masters.”
    Hubbard was on an ego trip also. He help people down while he developed his ancient Egyptian personal religion which he got from Crowley. Hubbard was “character building” in his writings about past and future lives. Funny he never mentions that to his followers except in the OT XXVIII data. It feels real good.


  460. “He held people down” (see above)

  461. Here’s a thought about the high cost of scn services which has probably been mentioned before on scn blogs. After writing a check for $5,000 for an e-meter, nobody would be unaware that persuing scn would be costly.

    Without condemning wealthy people, I beleive some percentage of wealthy people would enjoy being considered a “Big Being” and a “Powerful OT”. Much like casinos catering to high rollers, my guess is that such people going to Flag would be treated as royalty which would feed into their egoic notions.

    Sea Org and probably most current non-Sea Org staff members, as well as the remaining public would have bought into the idea of individual, planetary and universal “salvation” and are willing to be ascetical, or at least until they are tapped out. Ascetism is not uncommon in religion.

    When I was active I willingly dumped all of my extra cash into scn. As they say, hindsight is 20-20. 🙂

  462. koki – Please sign up for Marty’s “Advanced Processing” seminar coming soon.

  463. Hi Richard,
    Yes, I will publish all of the links one day. I have them now on large, different colored index cards. I now have over 200. They range from obvious little words like “static” all the way to the source of Hubbard’s anti-Christian attitudes. The occult really split into pieces after the attacks in the late 19th-early 20th centuries. The mother revivalist of it all was Blavatsky. Another branch went to Alice Ann Bailey and the “age of aquarius” crowd. But Hubbard radically broke from the occult to an even greater extent than Crowley. Crowley at least kept Virtue in his mix of creative elements. Hubbard eliminated that. The idea of a static actually pre-dates modern science in the occult. The neo-platonists played with it for a few centuries.
    What is amazing to me is how well Hubbard hid his sources. Crowley talks about Blavatsky all of the time. He says something like “she could research but could not pull ideas together.” Once you get used to Crowley’s style, you do get a better message than Hubbard. I see why Crowley dismissed Hubbard. Hubbard’s failure to understand the occult led to his mess up with OT III, OT V and OT VII. Hubbard could not trace the idea of the spirit through ontology. (sorry for using that word).
    I was at Flag on Tuesday inspecting the Super power building for Occult symbology. The Christian cross on the top is complete nonsense. But you can see in the expensive etchings along the side several clues to the occult. The double ARC/KRC triangle used by Scientology has two slanted triangles to change it from the “star of David”. Why am I not surprised Hubbard “changed” it? These triangles in the occult are part of King Solomon’s gold and signify his power over Demons. Solomon was Occult. Is Hubbard telling us he was King Solomon as well? Also, some of the flower patterns are similar to 17th Century Occult symbols of the anti-Christ. Anything with a three implies the vicory of the anti-Christ. A triangle in a flower also is occult and signified the anti-Christ in the 17th century. These are difficult to see and are seen only from a distance as that image.
    I could go on and on and on and on. The basics of Scientology are occult.
    Hubbard hid everything by changing it. That way he looked creative.
    Btw, Hubbard was not really even a good occultist. You can read Crowley and see why.

  464. Hi Richard,
    Hubbard was very careful to call himself Lucifer and not Satan. The idea of Satan was actually invented by the non-occult element. The “straights” invented the word Satan in the early middle ages. The organized Church preached of Satan to keep the troops in line. The idea of Lucifer went back many centuries earlier. Lucifer sort of represented the “flip side” of God in creation. The gnostics used the idea of the demiurg or creator god but the established Church had problems with this as well. So they invented Satan as the symbol of evil. It is not Buddhist either because Mara is death not really evil.

  465. The double triangles on the Super Power building are connected by the
    letter “S”. The letter is curved in an artistic fashion. This is obviously the
    Serpent or in the occult the serpent is wisdom. Scientologists should be proud of this symbol. It really means:
    The serpent of wisdom(Scientology) has power over Demons.
    It also means by further analogy: Love and virtue conquer nothing.
    There is only affinity. By further occult analogy: The serpent
    destroys itself.

  466. No problem about mentioning ontology, George. It was an educational word search. Thirty years ago I was persuing an “applied philosophy” and never really understood what the hell that meant! Better late than never.

    The people asking if scn was Satanic probably had a misunderstood about occultism and equated it with Satanism.

    occultism – 1. belief in the existence of secret, mysterious, or supernatural agencies. 2. the study or practice of occult arts –
    By that definition people calling upon angels, spirit guides, patron saints and so on would in effect be practicing occultism.

    You’ve mentioned before that religious scholars would have no problem understanding the occult tenets of scn. As a novice I’ve enjoyed your overviews and synopses of the subject.

    Back to word clearing. By the time I’m done I’ll be able to impersonate a religious scholar at the next cocktail party I attend.

  467. Transcended! Yes! That is a very fine word! I’ll e-mail you when I’ve transcended scn, George! The state of “Transcended From Scientology” is worthy of a formal certificate.

  468. Is this tone 40 ?
    This is main problem with text …. I can’t hear your intention …

    Big hello from LRHs Bulgravia.

  469. chuckbeatty77

    Link to the move, free, I watched it twice last night for the first time.

    My opinion of Marty has been raised by seeing it and re-reading Marty’s criticisms of it,

    Despite the bushwacking pushing Marty into a corner, at least the film lets Marty gripe a bit about Theroux’s attempt to set Marty up like Theroux did.

    I’m more a Marty appreciative person due to watching this movie, and also re-reading the somewhat praiseworthy writing of Lawrence Wright on Marty.

    A lot of good material gives Marty quite a bit more than the superficiail “former number 2 man in Scientology” identifying phrase.

    In my opinion, Marty’s 3rd book, is the best ex member book, despite its flaws.

    “Fair Game” chapter on the “Gillhams” though, has a lot of good history info.

    I wish people who were the top players had the time to tell even more history.

    It’s a burden though, to remember all the bad ways one acted for the cause.

    Marty’s thoughts on wasting his time to be used by Theroux as the target to dump on, so true.

    Someday, a talk between Marty and Jesse Prince, 5 years from now, I’d love to hear.

    Where’s Paul Crabtree, he used to be one of the old IG Cram Offs, he did the job after Jesse.

    There’s a whole little period of Int Base history I’m curious about, people who at least read a lot of the more disgraceful vitriolic Hubbard advices traffic of the early 1980s, I wish those with good memories could be stirred to tell more details of LRH’s traffic that did give credence to some of the disgraceful violence spitting and punching that went on like when John Aczel and Roger Barnes were spit on and punched in their faces. YEARS before Marty’s era of intimidation spell, and Marty’s era was goaded on by Miscavige, and details of Miscavige’s goading Marty and the other whole Int Base mentality of the late 1990s or early 2000s, to me, needs more laying out.

    But the Theroux dumping all on Marty, cop out media superficiality, totally agreed.

    There’s MORE the fricking violence history in Scientology.

    Jonny Jacobs was starting to take some of that history into his journalistic coverage.

    So much more to piece together.

    Where’s Paul Crabtree? I hope Jesse Prince’s book opens up some new stories.

  470. chuckbeatty77

  471. The stats are down about 80% from 5 years ago. The oldies are dying, and there are few newbies to replace them. ASHO and AOLA Orgs are shrinking like a raisin.
    If anyone believes the “Expansion” hype, just go look in any Org, even the biggest ones on the planet.
    Adios, Scientology. The dustbin of history awaits you.

  472. Richard wrote:
    “The state of “Transcended From Scientology” is worthy of a formal certificate.”

    Yes, a certificate with:

    Grade 0 – Awareness that Hubbard had very few original ideas. The framework of Scientology just came from his childhood occult readings.
    Grade 1 – Hubbard never gave credit to his real hidden sources.
    Grade II – Hubbard never complimented people like Einstein,
    Kant or anyone else
    Grade III The mind does not work like a linear computer. Hubbard
    did not know about quantum computers.
    Grade IV Release from the idea that Hubbard was a demiurg or god.
    He applied some Egyptian secret doctrine, but failed.

    OT I – just walk around the super power building and notice all
    of the occult symbols.
    OT II – Complete release from all Scientology technical terms.
    OT III – Awareness that the Xenu story was taken from Blavatsky and
    OT IV – Release from fear of alien invasion tomorrow.
    OT V – Perfect understanding of demons. Perfect communication
    with body thetans.
    OT VI – Perfect ability to create a mental image picture of Hubbard in
    complete detail. Perfect ability to make Hubbard speak,
    think, walk around and even give lectures.
    OT VIII – Total complete release from any idea that Hubbard could figure out anything better than you can.


  473. This is like the end of a chapter in a book.

  474. This just in…..Donald Trump just won the US Presidency and has announced his first two official actions as President will be to cancel Obamacare and Scientology……stay tuned for updates…..

  475. Crazy thought(this is not my belief).1. I’ve gathered from Scien. blogs and Face Book that Scientologists really like Trump. 2. I read before that LRH was planning on reincarnating as a politician. 3. I’ve heard Scientologists speak of avoiding child hood in there next life and picking up an adult body, a thetan abandoned. 4. So I’m curious, is it possible Scientologists think Trump is LRH.

  476. bunkerites messing around AGAIN with Marty. What gives?? Do they have anything better to do?

  477. Good People,
    I have my own opinion on this. I cannot tell you what Scientologists really think.
    According to OT VIII, Hubbard would never have picked up a contaminated body. The point of OT VIII is that Hubbard wanted a variety of genetically pure bodies to choose from. Trump would be old and contaminated. Telepathic beings in outer space, according to Hubbard, will invade earth and re-implant the population with Christianity, especially the Evangelical type. Hubbard will stop this in the role of the anti-Christ. Of course, those Scientologists in the Church have never heard of this Bulletin since Miscavige killed it. There would be among those in the Church the idea to mistakenly support Trump. Hubbard was a strange political animal. He wanted Christianity replaced by Scientology but his occult ideas are more like Hitler. It is perfectly consistent to assume that Hubbard wanted be a great Hitler like politician and play the role of the anti-Christ at the same time. In this way, he would be like Trump restoring the Aryan race, but far enough distanced from Christianity to be anit-Christ. It would be better to assume that Trump for Scientologists could be sort of a Buddist Metteyya like figure as far-fetched as that is. Remember Scientologists are cut off from news, facts and reality. According to OT VIII, Trump’s body is far too old to accomplish Hubbard’s goals. From the occult perspective of Madame Blavatsky, which is one of Hubbard’s major sources, Trump would be the one who is restoring the Aryan race from its past mistakes. This is probably why the KKK is marching in joy. Hubbard predicts that the weakening of the Christian “implant” will cause major conflict.

  478. Normally I read these and go Oh well…..nuts.. Then it dawned on me it’s a game. Odd and silly to say the least but still a game. LOL
    The goal of Scientology is the rehabilitation of the game.
    The auditor can make a game better or make it possible for the pc to play a game. The pc is being audited because he is no longer able to take part in the game.
    Life is a game consisting of freedom and restrictions. Play is communication. Communication requires freedom and terminals. Life units as-is with thought.
    To think, there must be something to as-is. To grant life, there must be something to grant life to. A pc will become as free as he is reassured of the existence of barriers at that level. When a pc is not assured of (does not have reality on) barriers at a level he will not rise to that level. A thetan will carry to extremes making something and making nothing. Auditing is that process of bringing a balance between freedom and barriers. A game depends upon a restoration of freedom of choice on making something and making nothing. One can become obsessed with making nothing. He can become obsessed with making something. Both of these activities and the rehabilitation of the freedom of choice bring about a gain in
    case. There can be too many or too few universes, but when an individual is stuck in a universe it is because he does not have enough universes. Therefore it is necessary to remedy his havingness of bodies. Remedying his havingness of bodies will clear away universes in which he is stuck by letting him have freedom of entrance into universes.

  479. “Hubbard wanted a variety of genetically pure bodies to choose from.”

    HBO is running a series called “Westworld” in which robots/doll bodies are perfectly engineered replicas of humans, some of which are becoming self aware and causing problems. Humans pay big bucks to go to Westworld and live out fantasies with the robots who are called “hosts”, and the humans have no problem blowing the crap out of the robots since they aren’t really self aware other than their programming, or at least not “most” of them – lol

    Elron would enjoy that show if he were around – lots of nice tight bodies to pick from! Somewhere in the scn literature I recall him mentioning doll bodies. I got a bit of a creepy feeling when I first started watching that show – “A long long time ago in a galaxy far away” – laughter
    Hey, if Ron said there were doll bodies, then it must have happened somewhere, right?

  480. George M. White

    Scientologists are almost totally doomed on planet earth at this time. According to Hubbard, the DNA in the bodies on earth is being tampered with by telepathic beings in outer space. They are lowering the consciousness capability of these bodies. Even Super Power will not work because it addresses senses not consciousness directly. This will render exteriorization of thetans impossible. Thus Scientology dies out on earth.
    This is a result of the current policies in Scientology which put the religion in total denial. If Hubbard finds a genetically pure body, he will offer revised Scientology to a new population. The current Church of Scientology has been dead-ended and trapped.

  481. Very interesting! Thank you George. Wild times we live in.

  482. First there was “Where’s Shelly?”
    Now it’s “Where’s Marty?”
    It looks like they got him. RPF. No, RPF’s RPF. A to E, to be completed from the dungeon. Or never to be heard from again.

  483. Richard,
    Yes, I remember the lecture on doll bodies. Hubbard probably would take a robot if no genetically pure bodies are produced. You know I have been to the sperm bank since I purified myself on OT VIII. In fact, I could hold out for at least a billion dollars if Hubbard ever asked me for one tiny sperm.
    This genetically pure body is the real deal with Hubbard. Remember how he had to have his clothes washed 50 times to get the smell of detergent out? Well, I found the reference in the occult. Perfumes were used in ancient Kabal to ward off evil demons. They had other scents which attracted the evil ones. So Hubbard got this insanity from some occult book he read. So now we have Hitler in a robot body walking around smelling like roses. Hubbard got himself into this mess for a very specific reason. He did not properly read his occult sources. Occult sources say very openly. You need to handle the physical part of your body at the beginning of the occult cycle. Hubbard tells everyone to forget the GE at the beginning. Big mistake. It is 50 times harder to handle it at the end. Guess why Hubbard was a physical mess? He forgot to handle his GE at the beginning. This is really bad occult practice.
    In all of Hubbard’s technology, he never really got into the real power cycle which they practiced in the occult. Hubbard was still in Grammar school. So you got a technology which basically helped him sell “Battlefied Earth” to you after OT VIII. All of the OT levels are found in the legacy of occult literature. He just changed the names and updated it to the latest space age machines.

  484. Richard, its a smart and interesting show building on up and coming 3D printing technology. The bodies are organic. The printing process is shown in the intros, as well as through scenes in the labs. But the show doesn’t go into how they are programmed, what the interface between the “hosts” and the handheld tablet-like computers is. What is in their heads? Are there brains in there, or ? I found the “between lives area”(the labs where they are created) fascinating, where they are repaired and reprogrammed, their memories wiped before they are sent back into servioce at Westworld.

  485. Once upon a time there had been a person coming into Scientology. He was tricked into by some body router or registrar back in time. His ruin had been found. He wanted to handle some problems he had with his environment. Or in other words, he wanted his environment to behave some way, to his advantage. Oh yes, OT is a wonderful concept. When I am OT then I am really self determined and can get what I want. Thus, his environment would be other determined. Determined by his will.
    But the environment did strike back. Now the Scientologist wonders how this could happen.

  486. Yes George, I recall your decision to find a good sperm bank several topics ago. I hope the little rascals are all safe and sound.
    A Hitler/Hubbard in a doll body with artificial intelligence controlled by Elron would definitely cause rervisions in this sector of the galaxy. No need to worry about genetic imperfections in those doll bodies.

  487. TP – I think Marty is in his cave meditating and putting the finishing touches on his non linear transdimensional abstraction processes.

  488. I watched the “My Scientology Movie” to which chuckbeatty77 posted a link above on Nov. 6. I did not find Marty to appear foolish or duped in any way, quite the contrary. He expressed his viewpoints clearly and succinctly, and in a couple of instances when he was placed in an uncomfortable position he reacted with totally understandable emotion. Well done Marty!

  489. Hi Valkov – As with any science fiction or fantasy show, it requires poetic license and a suspension of disbelief, much like scn, some might say. A creative imagination also helps and has its benefits.

    I think the brain/mind of the hosts/doll bodies would depend on quantum computing. My layman’s understanding of that is that rather than computing in the binary one – zero, on – off mode, the computing is done 4,8,16,32,64 . . . etc. computations simultaneously. The Westworld script writer merely describes the basic personality for each host/doll body, and the computer takes it from there. The brain would be a bio-electrical combination allowing tweaking by the controllers.

  490. Anon, thanks for posting. I had stopped going to the bunker. Am feeling quite a bit better lately as well. I noticed in the picture the bunkerite(s) put the word “envy” over Marty’s head. Its very telling of their own actual state when it comes to Marty. He,she or they are extremely envious of Marty’s .connections, wisdom, experiences, courage. Its as clear as day. Chasing Marty. Trying to make less of Marty makes they themselves feel less inferior. What a shitty state of being and pathetic way to live ones days. I have never met Marty. But having followed this blog for years I imagine he doesn’t give a rats ass for what any of these wannabee movers, shakers or Opinion Leaders has to say or do. They want to be on his radar. But they are just too small a blip, however puffed up their antics make them feel. Look at me, look at me.They cry out by their deeds. I really shit on him. I put in him a photo and put a derogatory meaning next to his head. Am I not Important? Am I not Important? Tony! You there Tony!.Did you see what i did Tony? Why don’t they do something really productive like give of themselves and volunteer at a shelter or soup kitchen.

  491. George, you said; ” Actually, the OT symbol with the “T” and the circle did stand for pantheism in ancient Kabal. Masons and others might have changed the meaning. I do not know. ”
    George, I do not know of what you refer as far as Kabal and pantheism expect as it may have roots in the Egyptian mention I added below. I can only speak from some research I have done to your reference on the Masons. The Masons have in their group of symbols a “point within a circle”. The point is centered in the circle. That is important. It is also bordered by 2 parallel lines. A common and exoteric explanation is that the point is the individual, the circle is life around him. The 2 parallel lines are boundaries to stay within in regards your conduct of life. So it refers to staying centered and not loosing control. If you want to substitute your physical self for the circle, with the point in the center being your spirit, or activating spiritual essence, the meaning does not change that much. Ancient Egypt has a circle with alpha and omega or Osiris and Isis in the center bordered by 2 serpents. I Suspect that still has to do with creation and control and conduct. There are many other historical appearances of this symbol. The Scn OT symbol makes perfect sense in this context and using it symbolically with the T inside the O works very well.
    I want to make a mention of the other comments you made about Ron and his glossing over the occult to get to the good stuff. I agree. His own appetites,were not under control. Smoking, weight, pride, possibly drugs. He was not in control of his own sensual nature. He skipped over a lot of the work on himself. He used and manipulated a lot of esoteric information, but he was no poster boy for its effectiveness in regards to the self. Its one thing to read some material and spout off data like an expect. Its another thing to get control of your body if your mistreating it.

  492. “Scientologists are almost totally doomed on planet earth at this time.”

    Actually, humanity is almost totally doomed on planet earth at this time due to overpopulation/over consumption. I figure I might as well enjoy myself while I’m still around, then it’s off to find a new planet. (maybe – laughter)

    Maybe Ron put out the Wall of Fire, Zenu story as a Zen koan so preposterous that each individual would need to come to his or her own realization. He probably had a vision of human civilization on self destruct. Trying to find a solution drove him mad. (just another speculation to add to the list)

    Maybe there are some good guy extra terrestrials out there who will blast the atmosphere with some form of irradiation which will cleanse the atmosphere and we humans can attribute it to good luck. 🙂

  493. So much terrible stuff going on in the world right now. I’m really losing interest in Scientology bashing. It’s all starting to seem very money/ego motivated. Seriously rethinking my inks.

  494. Marty – Your TRs, basically your presence, was just great in that mini session you gave Louis. I can see that someone would be very comfortable and confident being in session with you.

    I like this all encompassing passage I came across in chapter 41 of the Tao:

    Higher people hear of the Tao
    They diligently practice it
    Average people hear of the Tao
    They sometimes keep it and sometimes lose it
    Lower people hear of the Tao
    They laugh loudly at it
    If they do not laugh, it would not be the Tao

    That passage seems a bit judgemental, calling people higher, average or lower, but I think that’s just language describing the degrees eveyone engages in self reflection.

    I went back and read some 2014 topics. Thanks, Marty, for posting the India Arie and Raul Midon video in the Aug 8, 2014 “Graduating from Scientology” topic. (come) “Back to the Middle”

  495. True to form, the ‘global elite’ can not tolerate live communication and free speech, to wit, Rinders blog is down (6 Oct, 11:30 am Eastern). LOL, as if cutting comm lines is ever a ‘successful action’.

  496. GMW – I read a wiki entry about Annie Besant whom you mentioned above. She was quite an activist for women’s rights and other causes, a very interesting historical figure. The article detailed her association with Leadbeater and Blavatsky and also described J. Krishnamurti’s roots in theosophy and ties to Besant. Interesting stuff.

    Anyhow, while I was reading that article the thought suddenly occurred to me that you should be entered in wiki, George! Marty is already entered there. I’d do it myself if I had more computer skills.

    Let’s see now, George – we need to create a bio for you. “George M. White – vocal crtic of L. Ron Hubbard’s occultism” . . . . . . . . .etc.

  497. It’s 2016 therefore it’s Sabotage!!!

  498. For you cats who are interested in the occult I discovered this young cat a few weeks ago on YouTube. Very impressed with his insight and intellect. He also comments a lot on current events and politics. In fact I watched his live stream commentary of the Presidential election night and it was far more interesting than watching the media’s coverage. Anyway, he’s a dedicated occultist and really knows the subject….

  499. George M. White

    You suggested this occult stuff a few months ago with the video. I think it was Circe?.
    Anyway, once I started reading it, I started to think about Hubbard reading it and what it did to his mind. It must have formed his early personality. He got his ideas from these people. Yesterday, I listened to a tape by Rudolf Steiner “How to Reach Higher Worlds”. There Steiner is in 1905 talking about “Cognitions”. Hubbard never really defined it properly. Steiner calls it the understanding you get about spiritual states. What is becoming very real is that Hubbard did not try to master the occult. He seems to have borrowed by changing. Any great “occultist” can move a table with thought. Hubbard would probably defended himself by claiming to have been Steiner.

  500. Hi Richard! LOL “critic of L. Ron Hubbard’s occultism.”

    I seem to remember that you got me started on this journey. I thank you because it has been fun. OMG. Hubbard somehow read tons of this occult stuff. I discovered that the content of what he read was not the important thing.
    I concluded that he formed his mind into a pseudo occult machine. I call it pseudo because he never came even close to mastering true occult. He was way, way off track from the ancient masters. But Hubbard did influence a lot of people and he was very good at hiding his sources. In this way, he could self-create an image of himself. I look at the good things that he did and now weigh them in the balance. He cannot excuse himself on this one. IMHO he formed a religion and he just did not relly look or subject his findings to objective review. Too bad we end up with Miscavige and Cruise. So predictable.

  501. LRH occult critics: Ron DeWolf, Gerry Armstrong, Jon Atack. They’ve been around awhile.

  502. GMW – You may be travelling as you mentioned above. At any rate, I’m now down the rabbit hole of exploring scn occult roots. Here are some snippets from wiki. Crowley was extreme by most peoples standards, yet he was just another person delving into the nature of the psyche and existence.

    Aleister Crowley 1875-1947 (Aleister is Gaelic for Alexander, a name he adopted for himself)

    Crowley’s belief system, Thelema, has been described as a “magico-religious” doctrine.
    Thelema revolves around the idea that human beings have their own True Will that they should discover and persue, and that this exists in harmony with the Cosmic Will that pervades the universe.
    Crowley has remained an influential figure, both among occultists and in popular culture.
    In 2002 a BBC poll placed Crowley seventy-third in a list of the 100 Greatest Britons.

    It follows:

    Jack Parsons 1914-1952

    In 1939 Parsons converted to Thelema, the English occultist Aleister Crowley’s new religious movement.
    In 1945 Parsons separated from Helen (Northrup) after having an affair with her sister Sara; when Sara left him for L. Ron Hubbard, he conducted the Babylon Working, a series of rituals designed to invoke the Thelemic goddess Babalon to earth. He and Hubbard continued the procedure with Marjorie Cameron whom Parsons married in 1946.
    After Hubbard and Sara defrauded him of his life savings, Parsons resigned from the O.T.O. (the Thelemite Ordo Templi Orientis)

    I think this is a bit of a different perspective to the (entertaining – lol) HBO “Going Clear” version.

  503. I had to think a bit about this subject discussed here. That Scientologists are so much hated it would warrant to harm them. Back in time (seventies and later) it was not much different. At that time the blame was more on Hubbard and the organizations than now. Not so much the individual Scientologist. I had been attacked by parents and relatives and not so much from other persons.
    At the first look at those attacks it looked like that those relatives wanted to protect me from harm. But why did they attack me? They did not help me “to get out”. The answer is simple. As Scientologist I had been trained to confront the Is-Ness. Strip off the Dream-Ness and look at the reality. What I did find out was that my brother in law (married to my sister. She married as early as possible as my father had been a drinker) was a heavy drinker. And as I recognized it my parents and relatives also recognized that. For sure I had now an enemy in my brother in law.
    Ron Hubbard did say and write things that had not been very nice. And the Scientologist learned to have a close look at not so nice things. The simple act of looking can make a psycho wild. I experienced it may times in the underground. Nuts people started to scream when I had been around and be in present time.
    That is the source of the attacks. Nowadays one could focus on the criminal behavior of Scientology. But the other factor is or at least was, that when you uncover some nasty things those that do those scream like Rumpelstiltskin when his name (his real personality) is found out.

  504. Bashing at Scientology (not some particular individual(s) or group(s)) kinda reminds of bashing at capitalism or other things. There is no capitalism in it’s traditional sense, in the first place. Money doesn’t go to those who produce goods (like it’s supposed to, in theory). It goes to those who pimp public resources and to those who rent those (people, yes they rent them) who produce goods –aside from few independent business men and freelancers.

    And in SCN I don’t think for example ‘self determinism’ means ‘determining others’. But the problem is both some insiders and outsiders do. Just like capitalists think what we have now is capitalism, so socialists can bash at it. So I can’t really take sides. I Don’t really care to oppose anybody, but in life I wouldn’t want to hang out with some godfather who’d want me dead. So, I say I’m neither with SCNists nor against. I’m with honest people who can live and let live.

  505. ….

  506. The song was “From the Pinnacle to the Pit” by “Ghost”. The accompanying animated video showed numerous occult references. “Here we are the Gods”

  507. After scn is obliterated there will be fewer than 2,000 other religious cults to go after.

  508. Hi George. There is another organization which uses 2 geometric symbols and one letter. Its also an organization which Crowley borrowed from heavily in his own creation of new “rites” and “rituals” and “degrees” to puff himself up and feed his ego. It is the Freemasons. Their two symbols are 1) the square on the bottom, symbolizing ones lower nature, including feeling and desire in the body, and 2) the compasses ( Usually but not always wholly on top of the square), signifying ones higher nature, rightness, reason, etc. The idea or goal is for one to have their higher nature in control and command of their lower nature with and through the help of God, signified by the letter G in the middle. What I have found through years of research and study is that all the explanations of the Freemasons evolving from Middle age Stonemasons guilds and the symbols and teachings having to do with actual geometry are useful for public explanations and to avoid the religious angle and entanglements with other religions. I have seen Freemasonry used as a religious adjunct by the simple understanding of these symbols and their meaning to oneself as a reminder to act accordingly. Other religions who covet their membership ( income) may feel threatened by anything that might draw from their numbers. That I am sure has something to do with Catholic and Baptist attacks on Freemasonry in the past.
    Anyway, reading what you had written about the interlaced triangles and the “S” made me ponder one of the primary masonic symbols. Obviously the comparison ends there as the Masons are renowned for their charity, community betterment programs and free medical care (Shriners burns and orthopedic hospitals, etc) and the scientology church is renowned for less desirable practices.

  509. From above – Schorsch says “That Scientologists are so much hated it would warrant to harm them.” Spyros says ” So, I say I’m neither with SCNists nor against. I’m with honest people who can live and let live.”

    I find myself judgemental about Christians who are “comfortable and happy about being saved in Jesus”. Most of these folks are very fine people.

    Thank you Schorsch and Spyros for causing me to take a closer look at my own prejudice.

  510. I read the Bunker for the articles, but the posters below the story are exactly as you describe…

  511. Hi Marty,
    I see a lot of examples (I’m mostly on Twitter) of people speaking out against the abuses of the CoS. I have also seen respectful, well-meaning discussions between scientologists and non-scis or exes. I myself am particularly careful to be respectful and civil in my exchanges with scientologists, and just try to have fact-based, non-personal discussions. My exchanges have become adversarial at times, but only after the person I was talking to became nasty or continued to assert statements a statement fact without evidence. I have seen some very nasty exchanges and comments from people on both sides of the debate. But, as I said, I’ve also seen positive things like the dissemination of info and people strongly advocating for victims.

    Do you find value in these things? And why not put any blame on scientologists for the bad of the current atmosphere? I’ve seen extreme nastiness from current scientologists who I have interacted with.


  512. Steve Thomas

    When your role in life condenses to become an anti-anti-Scientology Church activist, I imagine (Lord please bless you with the ability to find this freedom) it would be a good idea to entirely dissociate from anything whatsoever to do with Scientology and enjoy life with ZERO reference to that aberrant set of SciFi/Psychobabble-type doctrines.

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