Wiki News Interview on The Reformation

Wikinews published an interview concerning the book The Scientology Reformation and related things.

107 responses to “Wiki News Interview on The Reformation

  1. Great interview! Very witty too!

  2. Marty,
    In regards to the possibility of the Disconnection policy being discontinued, you said, “But it never will because Scientology management has correspondence from Hubbard from 1983 re-instating; making it impossible for such literalists to cancel it.”

    What of the repeated statement (on among other sites) that it was Miscavige who reinstated Disconnection?

  3. Marty, thank you for this. I love how you shoot straight from the hip without having to view the question or the questioner as someone/thing that must be shot dead.

    It was fascinating that the first question addressed the scenario of post-McTinyFists, and how the interviewer implied that you must have a church/org-specific vision for the outcome. Contrary to the cynical beliefs of those who feel you are attempting to line up your own advance to world leadership of a Scn org, you accurately imply that the world of independent scientologists have already moved on to this Ideal Scene of a free and democratic scientology, independent of the current dictatorship.

    What is au currant is your displacement of the monopoly, and even the concept that LRH himself felt he was the only one capable of “running” the movement of scientology. As you and others have mentioned, Hubbard acknowledged that a monopoly was dangerous.

    The brief paragraph addressing your post-Co$ path through the “valley of the shadow of death” interests me deeply. I (selfishly) hope that, over the years, you will be able to share more and more of that deeply personal and intimate path as long as it does not interfere with your personal experience of self (although, how could it???).

    Bless your heart, Marty. Bless you for your courage, your honesty, your introspection, your humility AND your wonderful HUBRIS! If I never pick up the cans again or come back to “the tech,” it does not matter to me…. I am witness to a revolution fueled by HONESTY, FIDELITY and RESPECT toward the moral codes of beings who hold “survival” and its complex, multi-vectors in common.

    With pride, snarkiness, and humility, I must say…

    Dammit, I WUV YOU, MARTY!

    Rock on, baby, rock on….

    (un-committed scientologist; committed Indie)

  4. “The current independent movement is predicated on the idea that Scientology was destroyed by being monopolized” – Mark Rathbun

    Hear, hear.
    I absolutley agree.

    WikiNews definitley did their homework before the interview. Very inteligent questions.
    WikiNews:What was it that caused Tom Cruise to need to be “recovered” back to the “Scientology Bridge”? How were you able to convince him to come back? Do you now think in the end this result was to his benefit?

    MR: “The end result in 2003 was definitely to his benefit. What Miscavige did to him after that will be his undoing.”

    Miscavige (junior), we see you!

  5. I love the interview. Informative and direct.

  6. ” For the past twenty years it has been organized under the principles of The Lord of the Flies — whoever the collective, bee hive, stimulus response mentality collective that is left will do as they will.”

    That is an all time classic response to the question! Very well said Marty!
    Now…………..time to clean up that keyboard.

  7. I wrote a lengthy article on Scn Cult on disconnection, tracing its origin and subsequent formal cancellation, and its re-instatement in 1983 with a precursor Scn Policy Directive.

    L. Ron Hubbard did not write the HCOB that reinstated disconnection, it is a compilation based on an advice of LRH’s. That advice was to deal with the reported situation of the time period. All reports were filtered through David Miscavige and Pat Broeker.

    Would LRH cancel this HCOB, personally, today? Without any question. It has failed, it failed previously, it does not work and the man was about workability.

    This is my sincere opinion having studied this subject from the beginning to the end and having applied it for nearly 40 years, successfully in this life to myself and others.

    Disconnection enforced, is the probably one of the most destructive things to ever come down the pike, in my opinion.

  8. Excellent interview. Wiki News is publishing what YOU say because it’s truth and won’t let the Cof$ change Wikipedia anymore because they only tell lies.
    It’s sooooo much easier to tell the truth!

  9. That caught my attention too. I personally thought the cancellation of the policy was a PR measure, while it was explicitly or implicitly understood that the practice stayed in effect. For whatever reason it stayed in effect, it’s clear that it did. I’d like to learn more about that.

    Very interesting interview. I’ve ordered the book, by the way, and will get it in a couple days. Looking forward to reading!

  10. Regular Dog formerly Underdog

    Perfect interview Marty – You said in the interview: “The current independent movement is predicated on the idea that Scientology was destroyed by being monopolized — and if it survives it will because enough people appreciate that was the core reason for the demise of the original organizations.”
    I repeat your words here because I feel this datum is so true and it bears repeating. It’s also the most important thing I received from your new book, The Scientology Reformation.

  11. When the DeMon goes down, it will have similar salutary effects and ‘closure’ to that of taking out Osama.

  12. Create create create create

  13. Great group of questions (the interviewer[s] clearly did their homework), and excellent succinct answers Marty. Thanks for pointing to it.

  14. Li'll bit of stuff

    Wow, Nancy, glad to say (for once) —I’m speechless!

  15. I think it has been mentioned before but after reading this I couldn’t help thinking about the basic principles of evolution. The species that survive are the ones that can adapt to changing conditions. The ones that die are the ones that can’t. Scientology Inc, like some other religions, is stuck in the past and won’t change or evolve, therefore it’s dying. The Independent Reformation is evolution.

  16. Li'll bit of stuff

    You get better & better at this!

    COB must be getting pretty close to those”final stages”– so well
    documented– when der Fuerher, realized, (as did Saddam after
    him ) that the end is / was at hand!

    Gruesome retribution–always precipitated by one’s own misdeeds.

  17. Nice. I like the reference to Jonestown and Waco. I think we absolutely need to confront that Miscavige is going in this direction.

  18. I know you addressed your question to Marty but I would like to share a viewpoint on this that could help on this issue:
    “Disconnection” is a wrong target!
    Any ability to reach implies the ability to withdraw. This applies to jobs, husbands, states – to everything. This is a natural ability.
    The correct target is: “Disconnection against one’s own self-determinism or without one’s self determinism.” This includes being talked into, ordered to disconnect, group pressure, declares etc. – just any effort to elicit that a person disconnects from another person or group, without the self-determined decision to do so.
    By leaving the CofS you practice “disconnection”.
    For an auditor the missing element of self-determinism would be visible though protest or other indicators. He would handle errors in the list.
    If you wanted to separate from a person who is giving you trouble and someone suggested the same there would have never arisen any trouble from this issue.
    As I see it, the trouble stems from:
    “Attempting to force someone against his self-determinism to break contact with another person, group etc..” This is evaluation. It reduces your freedom and self-determinism.
    If you considered ARC to be a natural impulse, not to be separated from self-determinism:
    – not using the means of communication to create understanding where discrepancies seem to exist,
    – not honestly looking into one’s own actions that may make one feel to rather evade a situation instead of confront it,
    – not understanding that the dynamic principle of survive encompasses the well-being of other people as well,
    all these points would boil down just to: “Attempting to force someone against his self-determinism to break contact with some other life or form.”
    Since self-determinism can take on the viewpoint all other Dynamics, it leaves only the out-point and error: “Disconnection against one’s self determinism.”
    Looking at it this way the issue is handled by understanding the Code of the Auditor.
    My 2 cents.

  19. constant vigilance

    I WUV YOU TOO, MARTY! Great heart-hitting, succinct interview. Your answers were direct and pulled no punches. Thank you for all you’ve done so far and all that you are doing to ensure Scientology continues on outside the corporate church.

  20. constant vigilance

    Marty, Just finished your book. It must get in the hands of Scn’s still IN. The parallels to what happened to the catholic church etc are uncanny.

    And yes Miscavage is a pervert. He gets sexual pleasure from beating others and from yelling and seeing the fear in their eyes. Read “50 Shades of Grey” for details on this type of sexual perversion. And with Shelly gone for years, how else is he to get his rocks off? Oh yes, I forgot, there is masturbation, which he became obsessed with when he made all auditors at Flag Sec Check for that and had all the MAA’s “handle” (no pun intended) the OT VII’s on refreshers on the masturbation thing. It was his hobby horse for a long time. “Accusing others of the things which he is doing.” That is another characteristic of an SP.

  21. Gern Gaschoen

    I take issue with one thing, something I have perhaps misunderstood:

    “The main difference is that David Mayo and Bill Robertson tried to become the new L. Ron Hubbard and set up another version of what Hubbard created. That creation — the organization structure served the organization well for its first several decades, but became outdated and obsolete around the time of Hubbard’s death, 1986.” – Marty Rathbun

    Are you talking about Mayo’s organization, or LRH’s?

    I believe the organizational structure which LRH left in place (multiple checks and balances, WDC, Flag, etc.) worked pretty well in terms of delivering Scientology, while LRH was around .. or not? If it weren’t for the DM insanity wrecking things powerfully from within, the Flag->CLO stuff would be quite workable, in terms of delivery. I’d be happy to understand more of what you mean on this position, Marty, if you care for my interest.

    That reminds me, does anyone think we will ever see all the old Saint Hill statistics published? Surely, some SO member somewhere, has the stats database copied?

  22. I think that Ron probably did approve the re-instatement in 1983. It was a little over two years before he died of a stroke. I believe that the Policy Letter approving it has been misapplied grossly.

    The right to “disconnect” from someone is not necessarily bad. Everyone has a right to disconnect (or connect!) with anyone. It is a basic right. It is part of life. The problem rather is with ENFORCED disconnection, which is not a self-determined act by definition. Especially when it relates to family. Enforced disconnection is not specifically recommended in the Policy Letter to my recollection.

    Assisting people in this area is a very delicate matter which requires wisdom, love, and respect for others. Unfortunately, Ron entrusted the application of this tech to a group whose current “ecclesiastic leader” turned out to be interested in exercising power over others …..rather than simply helping people to lead better lives.

  23. Whew!

    Now that’s an interview worth sharing.

  24. Incredibly clear, concise, informative answer. Thank you.

  25. I agree, a very destructive “solution” this disconnection business. One of my very best friends for seven years, an OTV living in LA, disconnected from me around 2006 because I made a cartoon including the US marines. He didn’t like it so he decided to make me wrong this way.

  26. “I believe the organizational structure which LRH left in place (multiple checks and balances, WDC, Flag, etc.) worked pretty well in terms of delivering Scientology, while LRH was around .. or not? “
    Fact is, the “checks and balances” model was never in use the way it was intended.

  27. Hey Jim,

    I agree with this 100%, with one minor caveat.

    I think LRH would cancel Disconnection as an institutional tool. It is abused beyond all recognition today. But it still has use for an individual working to resolve a PTS situation “handle or disconnect” is the actual concept. And when it is being done for the well-being of the individual as opposed to the supposed well-being of the institution, it has validity and I do not think that would be canceled. Logic dictates it — we don’t even need speculate what L. Ron Hubbard would or would not do. What WORKS is what survives.

    Today the RCS has taken the concept of disconnection for control purposes to whole new levels: insisting on disconnection not just from SP’s, but from “rumored SPs,” “disaffecteds,” “not-on-boards,” “Facebookers with the wrong friends” and anyone else who might be considered to have fallen out of the clubbed seal show.

    And of course, they cannot tell any of those fools they are trying to control to “handle or disconnect” because if they try to “handle” they will be filled with “black PR” (truth) and they might lose another sucker.

    The real irony of this is that disconnection as a control mechanism will ultimately put an end to the RCS — as each day goes by they exclude more and more people from their club. And like a parasite that consumes its host and then dies of starvation, disconnection is going to consume the clubbed seal population and there will be no more wallets to steal.

    The RCS practice of disconnection is akin to segregationists still trying to justify their “right to discriminate” in the 60’s. Convinced they had the “moral” right to do as they pleased, they thumbed their noses at criticism and convinced themselves they were right by talking to themselves and ignoring the growing voices raised in protest by the rest of society. With their fingers in their ears and their hands over their eyes, they ended up swamped by public opinion — stirred up by those who stood tall and said “this is inhumane and wrong.” The segregationists are today relegated as a none too savory footnote in history while those who championed true human rights have monuments and streets named after them in cities across the nation.

    Miscavige is writing his own nasty footnote. Of course, like everything else, there is nobody else competent to do it, being surrounded by “peanut thetans” so he HAS to do it himself.

    It sucks to be Miscavige.

  28. mrinder – disconnection, as you describe it here (for the good of the individual) occurs in everyday life with anyone who has half a brain. If I have someone toxic in my life, who has back stabbed me or talked behind my back, wasn’t a good friend, belittled things that were important to me, etc. then I would cut them out. And I’ve been known to be brutal about it. Effectively, I “disconnect” from them. Only, I call it “taking out the trash”.

  29. “and there will be no more wallets to steal” So true – and reminded me of a comment from a clubbed seal – or possibly OSA – on the EG Courier article week-end just gone. I will quote him without embellishment or further comment; it rather speaks for itself:

    by NotMyParty

    Monday, October 22 2012, 8:12AM
    “The nice thing about all this is that the event went off without a hitch.

    A few obsessed goons and a some they pay wasted bus fare to come to Saint Hill to stand around and WaaaH about Scientology.

    Meanwhile Scientology parishioners—made more successful in life by what they learn about life and people in Scientology classes—happily wrote more checks to the IAS so new orgs can be built, Volunteer Ministers can visit more places to give free Assists to the injured and aggrieved, and all the other non-religious social-betterment efforts the Church supports will gain some extra IAS support.

    Yet the hate-driven thugs that want to curtail all social betterment remain too cheap to give to any charity beyond their own video game collection, their local weed dealer, or some “charity” devoted to hating Scientology.

    And no one is listening to them because their accusations are outlandishly beyond belief, their proof is nonexistent, and their “champions” end up jailed for cybercrime or narcotics.”

  30. Good article! Loved the Q&A 🙂

  31. DM should observe carefully the current fall from grace of Lance Armstrong. The parallels between these 2 men is striking. Armstrong is so disgraced that from now on, he will be jeered at and heckled every time he ventures out in public. A pariah for the ages.

    Armstrong’s arrogance was such that he actually believed the truth would never come out, that science would never be able to show that his many blood samples stored around the world contained banned substances, or that none of the people he disrespected, attacked and mishandled would ever turn on him.

    Same thing with Miscavige, regarding the truth of all the crimes he has committed against the only really workable mental technology on this planet. Much of the truth is already out, and no doubt much more to come.

    The ones who are going to really turn on him are the clubbed seals who still drink the kool aid, who still jump out of their seats at his every utterance. Just like with a ponzi scheme, it’s the last ones in or the last ones standing who feel the most betrayed when the truth is finally known and accepted.

    Miscavige has more defenses than did Armstrong, it may take them longer to crumble. But when all is said and done, Miscavige and the memory of his reign will live in infamy.

  32. Excellent interview Marty !
    As for disconnection, it should be scrapped.
    My reason is because whoever is a major sit for you, you are the cause
    By S&D and rollback to the WHY the situation will vanish.
    Ron says that Man must be in affinity with Man to survive, yes this is correct.

    Karl Von Clauswitz says the best defense is to attack, which was adapted in
    Scientology Mgmt is flawed in regards to what a desired product is most optimum. Example is that Jane Kember had this datum on a plack on the wall outside her office at Saint Hill. She was extradited from the UK ,pled guilty to crimes which she spent hard time in a Psychiatric womens prison.

    LRH Cleared people and trained others to Clear People.
    Von Clauswitz did not Clear anyone, he was a Russian General, Bloody Hell !

  33. Marty, I just read The Scientology Reformation. Thanks for writing it. The more light shed on this terrible situation the better.

    I gave $2,000 to the IAS in Portland in ’84 (?) when, I believe it was just getting going. As you said in the book, I was told the purpose of the IAS was to allow a new Scientology organization to open if the government shut us down. I thought that was a good cause. I didn’t donate more in the future because I had a basic disagreement with the fact that the IAS was turned into a reg tool to “disseminate” Scientology. I thought that was off policy.By ’92 I thought I was dealing with the insanity of the local group, but it’s very clear from your book that I was operating counter to DM’s intentions. I’ve written about this before here, but I still want to bring it up from the view point of all the information you’ve disclosed.

    As far as DM goes, sadly I don’t see him going anywhere. It seems he’s got things too justified having to deal with all of us degraded beings. Tom Cruise is another story. He might wake up one day and things will really get exciting.

  34. From HCOPL 13 March 1965 Issue II: The Comm-Member System
    Routing Policies Section
    “The way to audit a group that is in collapse is (a) get them to realize their purpose, spot their past distractions, alter-is and barriers and remove them;
    (b) get them to strengthen the channel edges to prevent wandering off it; (c) get them to see how the group purpose can be achieved: (d) take out of the group by any method those who have sought to suppress or invalidate the purpose or the source of the group´s purpose; and (e) handle as a horrible example all those guilty of noncompliance expressed as laziness or mutiny; (f) provide space for the group to move toward in their action and (g) spot the exterior opposition to the group´s purpose and begin to reduce it; and (h) be sure the group is energetically led by someone dedicated to the group purpose and intelligent enough to learn and follow policy and report new lessons.”

  35. Marty said: ” I have no interest in organized religion”

    But how to train auditors?
    How to check the results (the equivalent of the Division of Qualifications)?

    Its seems that in order to achieve the above, some kind of organization if necessary.

  36. Disconnection was always a tool that was used to quarantine those who told the truth about Scientology to other Scientologists so that their information would not infect the group of paying customers.

    It is heartening to see Independents coming out against enforced disconnection, and remaining open to all ideas and information flows. Truly, this is a very important step toward an important ideal scene.

    But you need not delude yourselves about L Ron Hubbard’s use of disconnection, and why he developed and enforced it. L Ron Hubbard was human. He fought to protect his income lines and those of his orgs. Disconnection was most definitely a weapon he used to intimidate and to fight those who would crash his stats by spreading information he did not want spread among Scientologists.

    Marty knows this because he has read all the LRH Advices, and it is very admirable of him to say this outright for the first time. What is needed now is to fully publish all the LRH Advices so that there is no more hidden data line and everyone can have all the information they need to make informed decisions about their own involvement in Scientology.

    Ideal Scene: No more secrets. No more lies. No more hidden data lines. Everything all out in the open. Then there will truly be no more need for enforced disconnection and everyone will be fully informed about Scientology and operating on their own determinism as Scientologists.


  37. Sounds like a remedy.

  38. Marty, Awesome interview, one of your best in terms of clarity, comprehend-ability to anyone, and simply very informative, a frank interview I think few could disregard.

  39. I agree with you.
    One day all the veteran auditors may be gone. What then?
    An Org was put in place for a reason.
    I think a monopoly is a dengarous thing, but at the other hand I think that real Scientology can’t survive well without a HCO structure. (All HCOs of any Org connected together in some way.)
    We sureley need no dictator, but organisation is not about dicatorship. It is common sense.
    There will be groups and associations of independent groups, and in order for Scientology to survive it needs to be disseminated and for that purpose Auditors need to be trained and supervised, crammed where needed, you name it.
    We shouldn’t fool ourself. A small group can make limited work on its own. Associated groups, following a certain organisational structure, can accomplish much more and a better quality.
    The key point is communication and exchange.

  40. Also — parents and friends will sometimes come to the sad but unavoidable conclusion that they must exercise “tough love” and disconnect from their drug/alcohol addicted child/adult child and or friend.

    Doing anything other than the above can often just be a form of “enabling” or co-dependency …

    So — separating from the source of upset is a sane decision.

  41. I believe that family members would keep their opinions to themselves so not to lose their relationship with their loved ones who want to remain in scientology. Parents face this in their everyday life when their child married someone who they don’t approve of. They learn to keep their opinions to themselves so they can continue the relationship with the child they love. This could of been worked out without a demand to disconnect. And much suffering could of been prevented.

  42. Great interview Marty I liked the way it dove-tailed with your book. I did get a chance to purchase one and read it through the first evening. A real head shaker, up and down and side to side. You are the author. ARC Bill Dupree

  43. The truth is people disconnect from other people all over the world on a daily basis. Kids run away from home, lovers call it quits, people quit their jobs, people immigrate to other countries and cut ties, people get divorced, people get fired, people move on. People relocate, people close down their Facebook accounts.

    At a very early age, I noticed that the people I knew that were not surviving, were allowing themselves to get fucked over by the same person , over and over again. I could see that by the time I was eight years old.

    Disconnection does not just happen in the Scientology arena. It happens all over the world. It happens frequently at death. It happens when someone’s son goes off to war and does not come back home. War draft is enforced disconnection. The Government forces people to disconnect from “undesirables” such as communists during the McCarthy witch hunt in Hollywood when people were blacklisted.

    What makes it aberrated in the Scientology arena is that the Sea Org has actually morphed into a private government that enforces and dictates these matters. And it is based on their interests only as a group which considers itself to be more important than the individuals. And it is at least one of them who feels threatened in some way, or is having fear about someone, it is them that wants to disconnect, and they enforce their wants and needs or fears down on the Church members and upon one another in a way that is a ser fac and a “can’t have” on the person they do not want to deal with anymore. They strive towards being a cluster where everyone is on the same page. An unattainable goal in itself.

    As most any situation can be handled with the tech, when the activity falls into “punishing bodies” as a solution to a problem, especially when there are people that are problems releases involved, you know people are not thinking with the tech. I do not think it is true that mankind can not be trusted with justice. But a militia organization has as it’s purpose to BYPASS. The purpose of an army is to BYPASS. The purpose of a religion is to heal.

    When you have CMO on the top and the auditors on the bottom, that organization will eventually begin to bypass it’s own members determinism. It will begin to bypass L.R.H. at some point. It will begin to bypass the laws of the land. And it will continue to bypass as long as it is formed as a militia. It will bypass right over mankind.

  44. Well, this is somewhat off-thread, but…

    Carl von Clausewitz was a Prussian (i.e. German) military theorist. A general, yes, but known chiefly for his ponderous masterwork Vom Kriege (On War) which has long been a cornerstone of U.S. military doctrine.

    I’m not aware of Clausewitz writing anything to the effect of “The best defense is to attack.” On the contrary, he advocated a very cautious and conservative approach to using military force, regarding it as just one form of the power of a state — a last resort, if other “means” of statecraft (diplomacy, politics, economic pressure, et al) prove ineffective.

    “Bloodshed in war,” wrote Clausewitz, “is like an occasional cash transaction in a business normally run on credit.”

    Not very much of a Miscavige type of guy, in other words.

    The adage, “The best defense is a good offense”, is attributed to American football coach Vince Lombardi. He was known for his patient, relentless, grind-it-out field tactics: win the game by holding onto the ball and keep moving it forward.

    If Clausewitz were running the COS, he would probably regard things like lawsuits, disconnection, and strong-armed pressure tactics to be extreme and counterproductive — not just on ethical grounds but because they weaken the organization and sap its other “means” of exerting strength, like building and projecting a positive public image.

    If Lomardi were running COS, he’d be grinding it out on the field, one well-done auditing hour at a time.

  45. iRoger From Switzerland Thought

    I never had any troubles in normal life about handle or disconnect. There were people in my life that were just too crazy , vampirlike or whatever and I just decided to cut the comm and they vanished out of my life. Not a big deal !
    I didn’t have to write them disconnection letters or any such thing. This is quite a natural phenomena in society or of life that people disconnect from those making too much troubles for them, not keeping their promises, cheating and lying etc. and having no real ethics change.

    Once I was the hes of an Org I just got rid of several publics that were psychotic, heavy pts and they were just consuming the time of the staffs with no real result or changes. As soon as I turned my back some other staffs got those people again in. It was useless to tell the staffs that we are not a clinic for people with heavy mental problems. They even recruited a PTS type 3 (a So Mission) and posted him as PPO. An alcoholic as Treasury sec (he later stole money) or a wanted criminal as HAS !
    This happened already in 1983 !

    We just had again a experience about disconnection this weekend; An aunt that wants to see a five year old kid to give him a birthday present but was forbidden to see the mother of the kid and thought that with secretive communication through another terminal could get the kid out of the house in order she can give him the birthday present and get a comline to the kid. What happened was that the kid only said : ” I don’t want to see her and went straight into the bathroom saying :” I’ve to sh…i now!” (a five year old kid ! 🙂 ).

    The mother realized now what was going and went out and confronted the aunt and told her: ” Come in, you don’t have a comline to my kid, to get one !”. The answer was : ” I’m not aloud to come into your house or I’ll get lots of troubles with my mum (a dedicated staff) and ran away !!!!
    It was a laughable action !
    This young kid talks about her Grandmother (dedicated staff) being evil !

    I went over that event with my wife, we are the parents of that mother and we realized that people that disconnect are “cowards” with no personal integrity and we looked at the situation trying to understand it and what we would have done in the same situation and cognited about that we always refused when the church asked us to disconnect from somebody.
    In 1998 we were thrown out of the Org because we refused to disconnect from the Grandfather of my wife (an OT3 and class iv that was member of the freezone) who was preparing to leave his body at age of 82 in the hospital. We just refused it ,were thrown out of the Org (had high stats as Fsm’s) and got then disconnection letters from all our “friends”. We didn’t care about it and had a marvelous experience accompanying an OT that was determinedly ill and had decided to go ! It was lots of fun and no sadness connected to it. He said goodbye to everybody concerned with a smile and went off. also we remembered times when we were ordered to tell people they should disconnect. The only thing we said was:
    ” Management asked us to tell you you should disconnect from your husband, we wouldn’t do but it is your decision !”
    2 Years later the Org has forgotten everything about it and wanted to have us back on lines.

    All this fuss and upset about disconnection is caused by people that are cowards and have no Integrity and are taking words from LRH literally !

    No normal person on planet earth would ever disconnect from a friend or a relative if ordered so, even under heavy pressure they just would say ” fuck off we won’t do that !”

    So I come to the conclusion that the people with courage and Integrity have left the RCS and whats left over there is no worth of getting my attention. Just cowards that are looking at the church as a clinic which will tell them what to do.

    This maxim ” Scientology is for the able to become more able” hasn’t been applied for eons in RCS in fact it was attracting patients that wanted
    their hand hold by the church !

    So lets start again at zero. We don’t even to have to discuss the matter of disconnection as most normal people know when they have to and it’s their own choice and a right.

    End of endless discussion about disconnection !

    ( by the way. Osa will know what I was talking about and it’s laughable that a 5 year old kid can see the lies you’re producing !)

    Also we’ll have lots of friends that are still online in RCS and refused to disconnect from us that will visit us ! They just said ” we are friends why should we disconnect , we know you’re a Scientologist that’s so simple”

  46. iRoger From Switzerland Thought

    Yes you are totally right.
    Just start an Organization and you’ll have one.
    Very simple ! Isn’t it ? 🙂

  47. Well then, here is the most major department from the ideal scene, here is the monster, here is the tiger lurking at the end of the line, here is the stumblingblock barring applications, here is why they don’t get the internet :-O, here is why they fail, here is why they fall.


  48. So, does anyone know of an instance where the IAS actually funded VM activity? Or for that matter, the activity of Applied Scholastics, Narconon or The Way To Happiness? I know they take credit for these activities, but the closest thing to charity I’m aware of is when they’ve chipped in the last bit of funding for a building when the public donos fell short. And of course the Church then owns the building, not the public that paid for most of it.

    In anything other than a religious context, the IAS would have long ago been prosecuted for fraud.

  49. “I believe the organizational structure which LRH left in place …”

    I believe people A=A policy with technology. I have found that people view green on white as Scientology. Over and over again. And apply KSW to green on white.

    If you read Hubbard’s definition of policy, “prudence and wisdom” “guide planning” “derived from group experience” “operational rules or guides” “group agreement” “rules of the game” “how to get the show on the road” .
    AND MAINLY: “Policy is a growing thing, based on “what has worked” . What works WELL today becomes tomorrow’s policy.”

    Etc etc Hubbard has a lot to say about policy defining it in the tech dictionary.

    Policy IS NOT technology.

    Technology: “The methods of application of an art or science as opposed to mere knowledge of the Science or Art itself. A body of TRUTHS. ”

    Is it true people are mainly using in baskets in 2012? No, they are checking their emails. They are communicating via internet. Skype. Office meetings are being held via Skype.

    The Church of Scientology is running on policies established by David Miscavige over the last 2 1/2 decades. He is the manager, the thetan in charge, of the activity. He alludes that this is Ron Hubbard’s authorship when it is not. He alludes that this is Scientology, when it is not. It is David Miscavige’s creation. And then you get all of these people protesting about Ron Hubbard and Scientology, when it is not.

    Per policy, the activity must always be reinvented to “what works”.

    So whoever took over was going to have that task at hand.

    The situation is, that David Miscavige has steered it into a culture that does not work, has not worked, and he is not admitting it. He seems to not care that the activity he generates does not work and has not worked. He has statistics he with holds.

    “When an honestly mistaken man sees the truth, one of two things happens: (1) he will either cease to be mistaken, or (2) he will cease to be honest. For he will either accept the truth or he will reject it. If he accepts it, he is no longer mistaken; if he rejects it, he is no longer honest. It is as simple as that. There cannot be such a thing as an “honestly mistaken man” who has once seen the truth.” Anonymous

    The bottom line is, policy is green on white. Policy is not technology.

    Fine and all good that David has enforced his own policies. He is taking the heat and enforcing the consequences financially and in every other way on his tribe.

    But to change the technology, when he is neither a Scientist or an artist, and substituting considerations and opinions for a body of truth,
    Is straight up vandalism.

    “Vandalism is the behaviour attributed originally to the Vandals, by the Romans, in respect of culture: ruthless destruction or spoiling of anything beautiful or venerable.[1] The term also includes criminal damage such as graffiti and defacement directed towards any property without permission of the owner.” Wiki

    Changing the technology, the bridge, using “technology” to create losses for people or enturbulate them, is vandalism.

  50. “Etc etc Hubbard has a lot to say about policy defining it in the tech dictionary.” Sorry, I meant defining it in the admin dictionary.

  51. What struck me in the interview was to read that Cruise is totally aware of the slave treatment of staffmembers. He knows how it is. And agrees with it probably too! Makes him lose even more sympathy. Also I read that you consider him to be a sociopath, made so by his pal Miscavige. That’s quite a statement. I sincerely hope his next movie will flop.
    It sucks to be Miscavige and Cruise. That’s for sure.

  52. Marty: To date my favorite interview. Absolutely pulled no punches.

    As for the seemingly endless conversation about organization — to have or not to have —

    I believe you said “I don’t believe in ORGANIZED RELIGION” — not, “I don’t believe in organization”

    The little local baptist church that survives without mandates from headquarters is ORGANIZED. It has a receptionist, if it’s big enough – someone collects the donations and banks it etc etc

    It’s not ORGANIZED RELIGION because it isn’t connected to some vast larger, unfeeling, unthinking “corporate” eccesiastical head.

    Likewise — auditors can and will get trained by independent groups who will train those who are interested — not those who are FORCED to get trained before they can genuflect to show fealty to “him on high”

    And as long as we have a free country – whether in the US, Canada, other parts of the world – then what will drive these independent groups will be free enterprise (not capitalism – that currently seems to add to the coffers of dm) …

    Sorry for the rant — but seriously — where does Marty ever say that organization shouldn’t exist. Hell — he organizes his fishing rods, nets and flies — I’m pretty sure 🙂


  53. iRoger From Switzerland Thought


    I love your answers ! Straight forward without any doubts. I hope that also the indies that still are dreaming about of resurrecting a similar organization understand it. Yes it was successful in the sixties , seventies and some of the eighties. But this was during the cold war as you said and pre-Internet time.

    Times have changed and I hope that people will understand ! Look at the Power of Wikipedia – the biggest encyclopedia created by a group of millions of people with good intentions.
    Who dares to say that a group can’t create marvelous things for mankind !

    ” INFINITE KNOWLEDGE FOR ANYBODY ON PLANET EARTH FOR FREE” created with the combined force of millions of people !

    Such a thing has never existed in the history of Mankind and will probably be one of the main reason in the future that despots and lunatics will have no big chance of suppressing people.

    Imagine this principle being understood by the indies and working on it – I know Steve does- this would bring about:

    ” IINFINITE SCIENTOLOGY TECH FOR ANYBODY ON PLANET EARTH FOR FREE” created with the combined force of millions of “Indies”

    I know I dream and some indies will say a group can only agree on bank principle and will destroy anything and want to elect Marty and Mike and Steve to be the only authorities on anything pertaining to Scientology !

    “You may say I’m a dreamer
    But I’m not the only one
    I hope someday you’ll join us
    And the world will be as one” (Lennon)

  54. Thanks Jim. I can reconcile all the data now. LRH wrote an advice, the particulars of which we won’t be able to see, about using disconnection on nasty folk. And that advice became the blunt weapon that the corporation now uses on anyone who disagrees with them.
    ‘Preciate it friend!

  55. Having never been a scientologists. I actually UNDERSTAND what I assume to be the original reason for DISCONNECTION. And it DOES make sense.

    If Rosie, converted from Christian to Muslim or any other religion, if her Mom or friends are constantly invalidating her right to choose or are constantly griping about her new religious choose.

    It makes sense that she should probably disconnect, in order for her to continue unabated in her journey.

    Obviously, the way the cult of $cientology & its so called leader david miscaviage use it, is as a tool for mind control, & to keep people in line.

    It is used to CONTROL people, instead of actually helping them eliminate what is really causing them problems.

    I mean when you think about it, people hang out with people who are like minded. Most of your friends are probably very similar to you.

    So I think disconnection COULD and DOES make sense, when applied correctly and not a forced rule

    BEd Man Okc has spoken !

  56. By the way, Hubbard admitted mistakes. He was constantly cancelling and revising and reissuing and changing the situation towards improvements. That is the purpose of qual, and the organization must cycle through qual. When the person in charge can not admit a mistake and correct it, the entire organization can not cycle through qual. It begins to back slide. It does not stay the same. It cycled backwards to department 3 and it has been stuck there.

    The entire organization has been stuck in department 3 because that is where David Miscavige has not been handled. Department 3 in Division 1 “It sees that the Org is there and functioning. Sees that suppressives and enturbulative elements do not block dissemination. Sees that service is accurately given and that no squirrel tech is used. Prevents the phenomenon of no-case-gain by spotting potential trouble sources and handling. Ethics gets case resurgences by finding the right SP’s.”

  57. Mike,
    Of course your caveat is completely valid. This is covered in the common sense of dealing with situations. It is also amply covered in the materials on the subject.

    What is obnoxious about the compiled HCOB is the hypocrisy of it being “self-determined”. This is given lip service, the person’s own determinism, but if they don’t disconnect then they are declared SP.

    Handle, is cancelled. There is no choice in the matter, The original SP Acts PL from 7 March 65 affords the person who is PTS by reason of connection to an SP the opportunity to handle, so do various references, even to the extent of getting a Comm Ev to prove the person they are supposed to be PTS to is NOT suppressive (and then the original SP declare is nullified.)

    No, the re-instatement HCOB, preceded by that obnoxious SPD 28, is one way or the highway, and effectively obviates any other techniques to deal with the situation. It makes nothing of the Suppressed Person RD too, where the EP is a friendly overture from the SP.

    “Disconnection” isn’t the issue, ENFORCED, other-determined and robotic, dogmatic, disconnection or else, that is the issue. And the HCOB that put this in, in 83, should be cancelled and so should the other issues DM altered to align to this pernicious practice.

  58. Mrs.Libnish,I like that…”taking out the trash”….been doing some of that lately myself!

  59. Which is always why – you can never speak of “your own levels” – they didn’t want people figuring out what was bullshit or people getting together and realizing what was promised was not what was being received.

  60. Gerhard Waterkamp

    Disconnection by the COS is practiced as a broad generality. You visit Marty, you have a different opinion and views on things you get declared and disconnected from everybody who has some ties to the church. It is all one big generality.
    Even the declares these days are generalities highlighted in a HCOPL.
    The COS has turned completely and utterly into a reactive bank driven institution. There is no free analytical capacity left.
    You give anything to the reactive bank and it will make the worst of it.
    That is what is happening with disconnection in the COS. It destroys families, friendships and personal relationships. It creates the most visible destructive effects.
    I personally think what the COS is doing to the individual is less visible, but much more destructive. The reason disconnection can be enabled as a generality by the COS is that they already have destroyed the capacity for reasoning, observation and self-determined evaluation in the individual.
    I see a father in his mid-seventies getting “declared” and his adult children throwing him out into the street, without any money and support. This man was a good father and took care of his children. But the church declares him and the same children he cared for many years and he gave them everything throw him out, because the COS says so.
    Seeing this much cold heartedness brings home the understanding of the destruction the COS has accomplished with his children. There is no more love and compassion or soul. All what is left in these children’s heart is an ice cold desert. How much more can you destroy a human being?

  61. BMOC speaks sooth….

  62. John Aron Williams is a perfect example of how it is done. Set up a course room with Sups and Qual and away you go. Is that an organization? Of course it is. Is it “organized religion” as in “centrally controlled through a hierarchy of priests” of course it is not. It’s a lot less complex than it has been made to seem.

  63. Martin,
    Good job on shining the light on the Truth of how a true dyed in the wool 1.1 personality demonstrates their ability to communicate.

    Lets examine a couple of the generalities and lies:
    1)”hate-driven thugs” …….yes clearly there were many of those!
    2) “that want to curtail ALL social betterment” …….uh huh…yep, I can see that too!
    3)”remain TOO cheap to give to ANY charity” …… ummmmm…. not even to folks who have been attacked by cults? Holy Moley!
    4)”beyond their own video game collection,” …….what the fuck is he drooling about here?
    5)” their local weed dealer”…….fabricate, fabricate, lie,lie some more!!
    6)”or some “charity” devoted to hating Scientology. ” ……..maybe one of those could be started but it would have some stiff competition from the current Corporate Church of $cientology, Inc. Me thinks there is not another hate group on the planet that could match up to Davey and his minions save for perhaps Pol Pot.

    But the author did make one true statement about the current Church of $cientology, Inc.:
    “And no one is listening to them because their accusations are outlandishly beyond belief, their proof is nonexistent”……

    And the last part is very prophetic:
    ” and their “champions” end up jailed for cybercrime or narcotics.”

    And we could add to that:
    “Human Trafficking”
    (I’ll leave out the juicy stuff from the tanning salon)

    Need I go on Davey you shitty little criminal. Gather up your toys and get the hell out of the sandbox!!!!!

  64. When disconnection, became a tool for control, I can not imagine the fear that people lived with, daily. Just a rotting feeling in your gut, worrying about what would happen, if you or someone close to you were declared a SP.

    The threat is still there today, of course.

    I am sure that people today, fear forced disconnection just like people did 25 years ago.

    But, I also think that people nowadays have WAY more resources: the internet, blogs, websites, former members that are alive and well & better off, so I don’t know if that fear is the same as it was say in 1987

    Just my 2 cents.


  65. And you obviously get it! And some of us are using it to put some distance between us and the creepy dude in the expensive suit with a foul mouth. (and other foul characteristics)

  66. How can I get a order an Autographed copy of Martys book?


  67. Tom Gallagher

    Thanks for providing additional clarity, Marty. Great interview!

    “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”
    Albert Einstein

  68. Dear bedmanokc,
    I’m sorry, but nothing make sense with “disconnection” and even if the UN Declaration of Human Rights Preamble doesn’t spell: “Us the peoples of earth…..”, it should have – and who are you going to disconnect from?
    ML/At the top of reformation, there has to be reconciliation.

  69. I think she might end up better in a couple ways if she handled, but thats just my opinon.

  70. The disconnection policies are conflicting IMO.

  71. departure, not department, of course.

  72. Gerhard,
    Within a couple of months of becoming aware of Scientology I read this from the Data Series, #5, Information Collection:
    “It is odd but all the “facts” you protest in life and ridicule or growl about are
    all one or another of the outpoints.”

    I have used this as a rule of thumb ever since. It’s very workable. And, I trust myself. No fixed ideas mind you, but I observe, and I take what I observe and this little test has served very well.

  73. Ok, well here is a perfect example. When I was 17 and I thought I was in love. My girlfriend was black/hispanic/irish white mix.

    My Grandfather was not ok with this & copnsidered ONLY her black side. To him: she was black, even though she had more irish than anything else.

    He could not stand that I was dating “one of those” – his words.

    Luckily I didnt like him anyway and he did not affect my life. in a good or bad way.

    However, if I had wanted to continue to see Erica, I would HAVE to disconnect from my bigoted grandpa.

    He would not be able to be in my life and not make comments about my choice of girlfriend.

    The difference is it is MY choice to disconnect or rid myself of a person who antagonizes me and prevents me from feeling comfortable in my own self.

    Someone forcing me to not speak to someone, because “they say so or else” is not the same thing.

    Help me out folks am i way off point here or what?


  74. “Surviving the Narcissist
    Frequently Asked Question # 80”

  75. I think the real issue is not organization per se, but arbitrary solutions.
    If “the hierachy of priests” is there to serve and forward the torch of the original purpose, I don’t think anyone (auditors) would have any objections.
    No one should be forced to be part of such an association.
    And squirrels wouldn’t even consider to be part of such a service (control for them is a nightmare).
    Around the world many of such associations could emerge. With people free enough to ask for or to give the help, control and communication as needed.

    Don’t get me wrong. I don’t want to imply there aren’t any associated groups in the Independent Field. I am sure there are. More power to them.

  76. No, you’re absolutley right.
    And good for you to go with your girlfriend instead of complying with your grandpas considerations.

  77. C of $ today, if Yogi Berra was the COB would say
    “Its like Deja Vo all over again”

  78. BMO,
    Makes sense to me. Plus Tunedal and Mike Rinder laid it out clearly above IMHO.

    You may have difficulty with portland84. My troll sensors are on high alert. I perceive a lot of confusion, possibly because he/she/it is an OSA Bot or is actually trying to crawl away from them and needs some space.

    We shall see…………………..

  79. No question about it. Not only is he “going in that direction”……he has arrived. Now is the time for constant vigilance and that too is happening. There is not one thing the Miscarriage can do that won’t make in onto worldwide comm lines. You would think he might enjoy that except that it always sucks to be him.

    How is your Monday going Davey??????

  80. “But how to train auditors?”

    Read it, drill it, do it. Observe the result and carry on. Auditor training info is all available on the internet and related sites referenced on this blog. There are very qualified people who can help if you reach.

    “Its seems that in order to achieve the above, some kind of organization is necessary.”

    There is a tape called ‘The org board and livingness’ I believe the title is called and it may help shed some light on that topic. Enjoy the journey!

  81. Dear BED MAN OKC,
    The disconnection particle as we already know doesn’t work.

  82. What policies are conflicting? That is, leaving out this dubious HCOB.

  83. Jim,
    THE best course I ever did in Scientology was the Elementary Data Series!

    After doing it my IQ shot up 8 or so points, the IQ test was a breeze to get through, and one’s ability to evaluate and function was greatly enhanced.

  84. Excellent interview, Marty. Very Informative.

    And regarding disconnection, I just wanna say one thing: If we want to remain independent, us Indies have gotta stick together!

  85. Keep shining the light of truth, whatever way you can. I remember when I got excited because there were 200 people regularly viewing Scientology cult website, I was just over there and there are over 300 online right now. People want truth, even when they are told not to look they will always seek out truth.

  86. Your post reminded me of this gem:

  87. I agree that people disconnect from others on their own; I barely talk to my own brother (it’s complicated) the difference in my opinion is they decide to do that for themselves, they’re not being ordered to do it.

  88. It offers Herr Miscavige an undue compliment to compare him to any Pope in history. In fact, DM is an unimaginative, emotionally and spiritually bankrupt prostitute. He whores himself for power, whores his integrity for riches, and whores his future to resolve the inadequacies that led him to attack Scientology in the first place. Make no mistake about it, little Davey hasn’t succeeded in doing anything of importance.

    The greatest compliment we continue to pay to DM, is to continue to even acknowledge his presence. He is really a ‘don’t care’. He hasn’t got the slightest relevance to anything of importance. Why not let him keep the money he has stolen? All it is going to do is cement him further into the soup, and there is much, much, much more to be made.

    You know what kids used to say when we were young?

    Ignore him and he’ll go away.

    And he will.

    Get on with helping the one’s who want it. DM’s completely irrelevant.

  89. BE’d has spoken indeed.
    Often it is good to spot the other flow on things which grab & stick your attention. Understanding Miscavige and his use of disconnection as a tool of power control is only half the flow; realise he has enforced connection of those under his spell and illusions. Without that enforced connection built upon by lies, deciet and corruption he has nothing.

  90. Beautiful, Mrs. Libnsh. “Taking out the trash”!

  91. If you leave it in.
    It’s in the ethics book right? I took my only copy to the office. It reads like it was added to by someone. It’s just not right. I read your article a while back and it seemed correct to me.

  92. Marty, great interview. Clear and unequivocal.

    I’ve read your 2nd book now, and looking forward to re-reading it. Also clear and to the point. I was hooked completely by Chapter 2, a fresh look at history. I also particularly liked Chapter 7, What Your Fees Buy.

    Terrific book, and I look forward to your 3rd book!

  93. We in RTC wish to make it clear — if only by way of underscoring the vast sweep of the majestic technical symphony that is the Golden Age of Tech as it has been fully and conceptually realized in the glossy magazines and DVD/s approved and issued by COB RTC David Miscavige — that Disconnection and the SP Declare are needed to safeguard the one way flow of money into the IAS, which money is used to effect the Planetary Ideal Org strategy that has been incredibly effective in achieving unprecedented magnitudes of expansion heretofore never seen in this universe. If you are not seeing this in your particular Org, then your Org is one of the tiny handful of downstat Orgs that we in RTC will address after the Super Power Building is fully staffed, opened, and operational.

    If only to summarize by way of COB’s flawless and unassailable logic, If the Church of Scientology is to continue to have straight up and vertical expansion that can actually be plotted on a graph — and we say this as each and every stat we publish is somehow conceptually true, or it is at least on paper — then we in RTC must eventually declare all Scientologists as they exhaust their wherewithal. We in RTC cannot risk that straight up and verticalness for which COB is famous.

  94. This is a valid sentiment — though ignores the fact that while ignoring him he continues to abuse people and steal their money. Can you really just turn your back on that?

  95. I totally agree with Marty about Organized Religion.

    It is my personal opinion that LRH wrote and addressed KSW to the very people who can’t follow simple rules of application using their own judgement. It’s a, ’till I’m blue in the face’ document.

    3-swing F/N is a case in point. Every auditor practicing that evil tech knows there’s something wrong with it, even though they’ve been checked out a million times and sworn on oath and had it rammed down their throats to follow KSW.

    What good has Organized Religion done there? Sweet FA, because they won’t trust their own eyes and ears, nor have they the guts to stand up to authority and desist. “Yes, he left my session with BI’s, but I’m following Ron’s orders.” Small wonder Ron lost it a few times!

    I didn’t need to tell my 2-year old daughter not to play with matches; once she saw what they did, she knew – case closed, no further action required.

    Self-determinism and recovery of self is not for literalists (nice term). They’re no better than bible-punchers. Worse, in fact.

    Richard Kaminski

  96. Dear newcomer,
    Doubt is an incitement for learning.


  97. VERY astute, pan-determined observations!
    Very worthy of the name, Oracle!

  98. Bed Man,

    You SURE you’re not becoming a Scientologist just a little bit????? 🙂

    (Because you sure seem to understand this particular aspect very well!

  99. You’re right Bedman. It is just common sense, something a lot of corporate Scientologists don’t have much of.

  100. The course is available and very much recommended.

  101. Charles Carmichael

    This is completely off topic, and I apologize, but I am not sure where else to ask my question. Regarding the new ‘Basics’ books. Are these legit? If not, Can I get a link or two explaining whats going on her? I went to the event a few years back when these were released and the message being pushed was, “The editors and printers did not know study tech, so they changed the books and now we have fixed them”. This seemed awfully hinkey to me because I can’t image LRH never went back and looked at one of his books in the 30 or so years they were around before he moved on. Thank you in advance for any information.

  102. Hi Charles.

    You’ll get different opinions on this depending on which indie you talk to. My personal view is that over the years (since 1950), the basic books were corrected various times — typos, editorial changes (based on LRH’s wishes), etc. In general, I don’t think editorial changes to the Basic Books is too big of a deal, when you have a social personality running the project. In this case, we had a sociopath running the show.

    What I’ve learned from those who were there was that Miscavige was directly involved this time (with these 2007 Basic Book “corrections”). And because of this, he tried to make their release the most magnificent, Earth-shattering thing that EVER hit Scientology. And then altered the entry to the Bridge by literally forcing EVERYONE to study all the books and lectures, before doing training, etc.

    Also, everyone had to re-buy these books, and make book donations to libraries, buy the books for total strangers, other countries, etc. In other words, “The Basics” release turned into the typical Miscavige-driven crush regging (sales) event. The whole thing was pretty horrific for both the staff and the public.

    Many new lectures were also released on CD, and the same was true of these — with the added caveat that we know of several instances where Miscavige edited out several lines of LRH’s in the PDC’s and elsewhere, with no explanation given. And because Miscavige is a sociopath and was directly involved in these “corrections”, it leaves the validity of ALL of these changes pretty questionable imho. Additionally, Miscavige forced the orgs to destroy the old books and tapes and effectively engaged in “book burning” of the same books that LRH had earlier used and approved.

    So in general, you’re better off going with the pre-1987 versions of the books and lectures. Most of which you can find online. With the new ones, it’s caveat emptor (buyer beware).

  103. Snoopy's Uncle

    There’s been an interesting view from a guy named Grof, who after his early psychiatric career recognized man’s spirituality. Without any intention to evaluate or advocate his works, this is a good one (in my own words as I remember it):
    When a religion becomes organized, it creates a hierarchy of ministers who can or also DOESN’T HAVE TO have spiritual experiences… After a while the organized religion begins to actively discourage and prevent its parishioners from spirituality. Spiritual experiences induce thirst for freedom and such people are much harder to control.

  104. Charles Carmichael

    Thank you Margaret. It seems our opinions are one in the same, so thank you.

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