Scientology and Sociopathy

Taking Scientology as the literal package that it insists that it be taken as in the Keeping Scientology Working (KSW) series, makes a died-in-the-wool KSW Scientology group an inevitable plum for the sociopath’s picking.  Witness Scientology Inc., and Scientology Inc. Ltd.

I made a recommendation originally two years ago, several times since, and will make it again now. If you want to fully understand where I am coming from with this sociopath analysis, and have not already done so, please read The Sociopath Next Door by Martha Stout.

The following two facts have been repeatedly demonstrated and tested – not simply dreamed up and expressed by some authority:

1)      Sociopaths thrive in groups of well-meaning people; to them such an environment is like shooting fish in a barrel.  Well-meaning people – particularly those inclined to follow – are the first to justify or explain away sociopathic behaviors of someone else, particularly someone in a position of authority.

2)      Sociopaths thrive in highly structured, disciplined, military or para-military type groups.  Sociopaths – many being more clever than average – can easily learn to game such structured, policy-driven systems and thereby rise and game them toward the destruction of lives from a position of power.

Thus, a KSW worshiping Scientology group – which by policy is required to destroy anyone who might disagree with a continuous harmonious group chanting of Scientology mantras – makes for the perfect sociopathic storm.

I have mentioned in the past that in decompressing and moving on up a little higher from the Scientology experience it would serve one well to recognize the difference between walking the walk and talking the talk; both in oneself as well as recognizing it in others.  In a highly literal KSW environ, inevitably the guy or gal who talks the best talk rises to the top – and by its own firm policy, rules over the hearts and minds of his followers.  It is the ideal scene for a sociopath.  He or she can kill, maim, and disable to nothing but hosannas by those he intends to slaughter, provided he or she can stifle any original thought, and instead artfully spit out nothing but green on white (policy) and red on white (technology) of Scientology.

154 responses to “Scientology and Sociopathy

  1. Summerwind

    I want to read that book 🙂

  2. Amen. I was required to do the full KSW Course twice. Did the Freewinds KSW seminar about 6 times. Always a bit like fingernails on a chalkboard for me at parts. I finally figured out how to put on the show they wanted but knew that I would not really surrender my own thinking, evaluation, judgement. At times, I hoped I wasn’t missing out on the Brass Ring because I could not bring myself to go all the way and bow down. Now I’m relieved by my decision.

  3. Not only does the Church provide an environment where the sociopath can flourish, the traditional marketing of Scientology also tended to attract that type of person. I’m not talking about the current campaign about free thinkers and rebels, which is more about stroking the flock than about really attracting new members. I mean the promises that Scientology will make you more powerful, more at cause. The sociopath sees being cause in only one light – others will be at effect, and that’s just the way he (or she) likes them.

    Although most of us might have signed up in the pursuit of wisdom, Scientology also subtly promotes what every sociopath craves – domination over others. Consequently the group attracts sociopaths in disproportionate numbers and once in, as Marty points out, they find a system that allows them to rise to the top.

  4. Warren Marston

    “The Sociopath Next Door” is a great book. I liked it so much that I re-read it just last week. And I agree that Scientology as LRH reorganized it in the late 1960’s provided a fertile ground in which sociopaths like DM could grow. That was LRH’s big mistake in my opinion. But in re-establishing real Scientology today, it’s a mistake we can easily correct. Just stop recruiting teenagers onto staff. Make admin support tech rather than ruling over it. Have all staff get 12.5 hours per week of auditor training and co-auditing in addition to 12.5 hours of post hatting. Require all executives to be interned Grad 5 Clears first. And require any executive with power over tech personnel to be higher trained and interned as an auditor than those tech staff. With these policies in place, DM and others like him never would have been able to grab any power organizationally. In fact, DM wouldn’t have been able to remain on staff at all.

  5. I agree, KSW does create a self perpetuating group.

    I really think that it takes some time to unwind before one can get to this point Marty. As an EX C of S member, it took me awhile to even be able to look at ANYTHING that was out KSW. KSW is so embedded in the brainwashing that I am surprised anyone can get along in life without clapping to a photo everyday. And yes, I said brainwashing. How many of your readers cannot say or even think the words cult or brainwashing. I know I couldn’t.

    KSW is at the beginning of each course for a reason. I was on NOTS (1993-1997) and had the Sec Checks, Ethics Handlings etc, Do you know how many times you word clear KSW by the time you get on OT VII? And how many times you word clear or check out others on KSW? You do learn to become literal with KSW. If not, it will cost you dearly in money, time, relationships…

    Many years later, I am trying not to speak the language and move on. I say take what you can that helps you and go out and enjoy life.

    Talking to others that are getting out of C of S helps tremendously. It really helps unwind the literalness. But also, make some new friends, find someone that needs a hand up and you will put your own tragedy and KSW in perspective.

    And by the way, Marty, I appreciate you responding to my cryptic emails so many years ago. You definitely helped me move on up higher!

  6. We have seen this in action. Your commentary describes current management and points out that the group will never avoid this type of individual.

  7. And I have noticed the sociopaths in the Scientology arena, are the first to invalidate Scientology and Hubbard’s products. Invalidating clears and OTs and auditors.

    The whole time they pledge allegiance to the Scientology Bible they are running around making NOTHING out of clears, OT’s, Scientologists and auditors.

    In this way they push and MUST HAVE and a CAN’T HAVE at the same time.

    MUST HAVE Scientology CAN’T HAVE the rewards from it.

    Making EVERYTHING out of the paper and scripture and books and buildings and making NOTHING out of the products. Using the Scientology to set everyone up for losses.

    Running OT’s through objectives and describing clears and OT’s as S.P.’s or degenerates or “consumer Scientologists” or “C/S 22” cases.

    The whole time they are covertly insisting Scientology DOESN’T REALLY WORK, they are pushing that every part of it DOES Work.

    Warning Signs

    Recognizing a sociopath is not as easy as it may seem, despite the clear criteria provided by the DSMR-IV for diagnosis. Sociopaths can be very convincing and charming at first, especially at the beginning of relationships. A history of poor relationships, problems with the law, and excessive lying are just a few red flags to watch out for at the beginning. A lack of remorse, when noticed in a possible sociopath, is often a warning sign. It is nearly impossible to have a normal relationship with a sociopath, and in some cases, being involved with a sociopath can be dangerous. Their lack of regard for the welfare of others and typical lack of conscience can make sociopaths dangerous.

    Profile of the Sociopath:

  8. Martha’s book is available on Scribd for free. It is excellent, the result of dealing with these people of no conscience for 30 years.

  9. martyrathbun09

    Hi Cindy.

  10. Globetrotter

    Marty – I just finished reading your “Warrior” book.


    It was like auditing. It blew charge. It filled some huge, gaping holes in answering some “WTF??” questions I had, seeing what was going on. It loosened up “stuck” thoughts and fixed ideas I got while carrying the torch in the SO.

    I kinda feel like I’m starting a new chapter in my life. I’m continuing with my auditing (and also doing my auditor training on the side) and doing so with a sane view of what Scientology is and isn’t, what it can and what it can’t do, and believing nothing but what is true for me.

    Partially as a result of reading your book, I closed a chapter in my life – well, I started to closing it before I started the book, but this was the cherry on the cake. I no longer consider myself a Scientologist. The label comes with too much baggage I don’t need or want. And that gives me an easy, fun, positive and sane attitude towards using the technologies developed by LRH – and I will keep using the stuff that I find useful. No must have’s, no fear, no stuck thoughts and feelings, the seriousness is gone, and instead, a return of my original excitement for discovery I had when I first set foot in a Scientology mission many years ago.

    It’s a great service to Scientologists that you have written this book, whether they realize it or not – and many won’t. So what. Life is fun, and you did a great job adding some more truth, more fun, more freedom for those who are willing to look and see for themselves. For everyone else, there is MasterCard and the Reg 🙂

    Thank you buddy.

  11. Hapexamendios

    I picked up “The Sociopath Next Door” a while back based on your recommendation. Thanks for that – it’s a very thought provoking read.

  12. The only way and harming people in the name of protecting the only way is the sophistry of evil.

    If we are the only hope for mankind, then anyone against us is the enemy mankind.

    Therefore attacking the enemy is protecting mankind, and the ethical thing to do. Hitler was trying to make a better world by pruning the undesirable weeds in the garden of earth.

    This is the self induced madness that the ‘only way’ and harming others to protect the only way causes.

    Beings who gravitate towards this type of dark and violent philosophy are intellectual infants with deep issues of anger and insecurity. And what makes this – group centric condemning mindset hard to break out of is – some of the doctrines in Scientology itself.

    Power and control is the goal. So a sociopath sees these tools of punishment and control as a perfect fit with his goals.

    Ethics tech, sec checks, destruction of the family, destruction of businesses, fear of loosing salvation etc etc etc. For a warped human being with visions of power this is a dream come true!

    Attack the enemy, destroy the enemy utterly, study techniques and word clear the sacred duty of crushing dissent.

    i don’t really care what people believe. They can believe in the all powerful Russet Potato as long as they don’t have ‘only way’ and church doctrines that give sacred justification of violence to protect the only way.

    The societal space of Scientology is closing in on itself. More and more the prisoners are being instructed to not read the internet.

    In todays world that basically means cutting yourself of from the 21st century. And the more you are instructed to not look, the smaller your space will become. And the smaller your space becomes the more you have to justify this craziness with “the world is filled with evil SPs trying to destroy the only way.”

    You people are making yourselves cookoo!

    Read the internet, be brave, reclaim your real power and dare to be you.!


    But in the ultimate simplicity, only love and respect for each other will heal Scientology.

    But that is too simple, only wayers need justification to fight holy wars and defeat enemies.

    Only love can heal this sickness of The Scientology Wars.

    When you attack others, you attack yourself. And that truth is quite evident here in the Scientology diaspora.

  13. I would be inclined to listen to the person getting the most results. This would not mean that I wouldn’t listen to others.
    That sounds like a good book. I am sure I will get around to reading it one day.

  14. In order to be cruel to another, it is helpful to not feel the pain you are inflicting. There is area of the brain that contains what are described as ‘mirror neurons’ – for some, this area is damaged, perhaps due to repetitive childhood traumas, for some there is a genetic difference, and they do not feel empathy properly. Both the E-meter and the Lie detector, will react only if there is a stress response to a question. Lacking properly functioning mirror neurons, sociopaths will not have a proper stress response, thus, they are in fact aided in their rise to the top, in those organizations that utilize the stress response to find the bad apples. The baddest apples of all do not react. As a side note, in the movie Silence of the Lambs, note that the sociopath serial killer Hannibal Lechter does not blink once.

  15. “How many of your readers cannot say or even think the words cult or brainwashing. I know I couldn’t.”

    Bless your heart, Cindy. I remember well. After over 20 years out, I still hate to use Scientology nomenclature. Ick.

    Welcome to the real world.


  16. That is a fact Oracle. Because I remember when I first discovered Dianetics (not Scientology) and I believed every human woe could be traced to people’s reactive minds. It was only part of the picture. The more I became interested in what lie beyond the Dianetics book at the church the more obstacles that were never ever there began to present themselves in the form of “church members” with “services to offer”. In addition, the “service oriented staff” did not become calmer as things moved on, but more frantic and more wild. And I believe LRH says somewhere that when one is the right path things simplify not complicate. So the only way that this could happen would be if there were freaks in the church posing as person’s of good will out to victimize anyone that would not yet know the true tech, and do it for their own gain, not the good of all concerned. This eventually led me to the verified conclusion that the people in the church I was seeking help from were way worse off than me and struggling with situations that to this day I have never had the postulate to create. 🙂 Amazing isn’t it? 🙂 And then to have the balls to call themselves a “church” “the experts on the human mind” “spiritual beings”, it is a sad thing, and you know what it all boils down to, unhandled out ethics and O/W’s. In this case and probably a lot of other people more too as time goes on, the church’s out ethics and O/W’s not mine! 🙂

  17. An example of a “Scientology mantra” I’ve seen put to a destructive purpose at a Scientologist-owned company, at APS, at WISE, and at our local orgs: “Behind every Why, there’s an Ethics Why.” Inevitably this leads to skipping the investigation, skipping the evaluation, and instead just looking at who’s higher on the Bridge, who has a better PR presence, who’s the biggest donor, and finally who has learned to game HCO, the LRH Comm, the DSA, and the Snr C/S.

  18. You said “which is more about stroking the flock” funny I totally agree that most of the advertising is to keep the current group engaged.

  19. Gerhard Waterkamp

    The pure mentioning of the thought, that the way Scientology is setup as a whole has something to do with the fact that a sociopath like DM could rise to the top is pure blasphemy in the eyes of the KSW crowd and exposes another product of KSW with technical trained folks of the KSW kind. They often confuse their knowledge of a servo mechanism for the mind and some knowledge of the mind itself as the totally of what can be known about the mind, life, groups and anything related to the human existence. Consequently anybody disagreeing with their viewpoints of the high priest, needs to re-study, word clear, get some auditing first and so forth. In their narrow minded world they fail to recognize that based on the totality what can be known about life they only know a relatively small, but powerful and specialized segment.
    While it does not take a rocket scientist to realize that the environment and culture of a group has a great influence on the outcomes (whole branches of science at Universities are dedicated to that subject), this cannot be accepted for Scientology. The reason why?
    The actual logic I encountered paraphrases like this:
    ‘The thesis Scientology has the seeds of its own destruction of course means of course Ron in some crazed way devised that. That is bashing Ron.’

    KSW seems to install this type of self-protecting ignorance even in some of the highest technical trained and best intended Indies. I mean, these are good above average smart people and they do seem to get results with the auditing tech. Yet they cannot apply their technical data to the problem? If Ron in the way he created Scientology in all its parts had nothing to do with the outcome, then he was totally victimized by DM and not at cause. That IMO implies one of the worst LRH bashings I think that can be dished out. So what is the point of the above logic?
    Compared to DM LRH was like a Titan to a bug. By idolizing LRH and not allowing him in the immense work he has done, to have a few honest errors is tearing him down to the status of a victim of a sociopath like DM.

    All this shows to me, knowing a datum and to be able to think with it are two different things. The inability to think with the data seems to be another effect of KSW, because the more KSW is pushed, the lesser the demonstrated thinking ability apparently gets.
    This makes me think of these definitions for a withhold from the tech dictionary: 4. “when the person should be reaching and is withdrawing, that is a withhold” 8.“it is restraining self from communicating”.

    KSW in its thought stopping ways may instill withholds, where a person should be reaching and use, communicate and think with the data but is withdrawing.
    But what do I know, I am not a Class VIII.

  20. Robin Scott

    So, Marty, would you agree that your former associates, Steve Hall and Jim Logan, by joining Milestone 2 have proved that they are sociopaths?
    Furthermore, would you also accept that, since you rose rapidly to the top in the Church under David Miscavige, you too are a sociopath? Can you point me to any evidence that shows that your behaviour has changed?

  21. I concur with points 1 and 2 above but don’t believe all the blame can be laid at the door of the KSW policies, at least not exclusively. Implanting the idea that KSW means everything uttered by authority is to be taken literally is itself out-KSW, a very clever and insidious twist (i.e. falsehood). Moreover, history is replete with examples of sociopaths finding fertile ground among groups and business organizations in which the KSW policies never existed. Instead, they took whatever closely-held theta core value that had the widest group agreement among well-intentioned people and used it to twist it into a groupthink fixed idea for dominating others. Accordingly, the perversion of such policies is more of an incidental expedience or “mere explanation” than a Why.

    The studies alluded to lay out clearly the common denominators of a sociopath-ready group in which the normal checks and balances of social behavior maintained by each group member exercising their individuality get subjugated, particularly, as mentioned, in a military or paramilitary group culture.

    I mean, c’mon, “religious warrior”?? You can’t get much more oxymoronic than that!

    All such groups had most or all the following SYSTEMIC ELEMENTS in common, which served as antecedents to sociopath domination:
    1. Uniforms – eliminating group members sense of personal style, a hallmark of individuality
    2. Insulation of the group – creating a world of its own outside societal norms
    3. Elitism – difficult entry procedures, categorization (labeling) and demeaning of others, which promotes personal conformity to the group stereotype as the ideal
    4. Strong group cohesion – unity toward a common goal; task commitment; interdependence; satisfaction of personal emotional and social needs of belonging; interpersonal attraction; similarity of background (e.g., race, ethnicity, occupation, age), attitudes, values and personality traits; social identity; group pride
    5. Strong internal pressure for loyalty and conformity – creates in the individual a willingness to give into conformity pressures in order to maintain or enhance their relationships and group status
    6. Behavior modification – individual behavior adjusted to conform to group norms, or “depersonalization” of self-perception
    7. External competition and threat – urgency of self-preservation as a group against a common foe
    8. Group over Individual – a group ethos that preservation of the group is paramount and individuals are expendable in that cause.

    Loyalty to a uniformed, elitist, strongly cohesive group facing an external threat (real or imagined) requires individuals to avoid raising controversial issues or alternative solutions. Prompt action is valued over discussion and thorough analysis. Thus, group dynamics produce an “illusion of invulnerability” (inflated certainty that the right decision has been made). The primary socially negative cost of groupthink is the loss of individual creativity, uniqueness, and independent thinking – exactly what basic Scientology was designed to achieve, and does when application is unadulterated.

    Although some of the above points may reasonably be seen to be echoed in the KSW policies, their hyperbolic nature could only be brought to the degree of group fixed idea literalness evident in the RCS by INSTITUTIONALIZATION OF A PARAMILITARY CORPORATE CULTURE.

    Had KSW never been written, paramilitary groupthink would have utilized something else to subjugate individuality. The proof is the absence of such literalness in “civilian”, non-S.O. orgs and missions, which flourished until subjugated by S.O. Command.

    Although our collective experience with organization has been exceedingly disconcerting, lest we are to be a bunch of individuated cowboys that hang up their own shingles and do their own thing, SOME form of organization, as distasteful as it may seem, is necessary – and only to the irreducible minimum necessary to facilitate delivery. And, I’m sorry, you can’t just hobby-horse on Tech. Successful delivery does in fact required all three – Ethics, Tech and Admin – applied with real humanity.

    The closest to an established successful pattern in that regard are any of the various professional associations, which with what we know could be vastly improved upon to provide maximal freedom, individuality, creativity, initiative and efficacy while allowing enough latitude for free market forces to work their natural selection magic. Now that we are free of the inherently oppressive paramilitary culture and are in a position to become associated terminals, it’s eminently doable – the inevitable pains of metamorphosis notwithstanding – irrespective of whatever branding or positioning is necessary to achieve the PURPOSE of improved conditions within society.

  22. Sounds to me like Take 2 of Corporate Scientology. Require staff to work 40 hours a week, then get 25 hours of post hatting and auditor training, all done under organizational duress, for unit pay? No time for the 2D or any other dynamics.

    Would you, Warren, sign up for that?

  23. The thing you describe has been my main issue with jobs as well. I think they are attracted to self destructive groups –groups one shouldn’t join. They have the right to play their game I guess. Just don’t think you have to play theirs.

  24. Simply, in a group where it’s people respect each other’s self determinism and co-operate instead of bossing each other around, and don’t rely on deception either, such people have no place. As that group doesn’t want to get destroyed, and as that group wont allow such people to thrive. And I’ve never seen a group with such people inside that offers truly good services either. And if you want to do good in and for such a group, you’ll get into trouble.

    It isn’t and never has been a necessary evil, to whip or deceive group members into submission, in order to get a group working. That’s -in my opinion- justification of both of those who do it and those who allow it to be done on themselves and others. And this system has been backed up by phiplosophies and psychosciences and religions. A leader would be one that takes responsibility for self and group. On the contrary such group’s leader’s take no responsibility for self and their only sense of responsibility for the group is blame, and ethics=morals.

  25. The inflexibility of KSW creates the ideal environment for suppressing original thought. Your comment makes perfect sense:

    Thus, a KSW worshiping Scientology group – which by policy is required to destroy anyone who might disagree with a continuous harmonious group chanting of Scientology mantras – makes for the perfect sociopathic storm.

  26. Jean-François Genest

    Thank you for the analysis and info.
    (The SPN book is on my list of books to read) It rings true.
    • A former close friend of mine still bows down to DM despite all that happened to him. He was sent to the RPF in the early 90’s because DM’s mother, who was |apparently| an OT-7 was repeatedly receiving promotional brochures for the Scientology lower grades, felt “insulted’ of the degradation of status, contacted her son, and zooom → it was determined from above that my friend had “evil intentions” toward DM and his family. [there was a computer glitch in the International Central Files] He ended up routing out from the RPF. Never made it back to “dry land”. The slave loves his master ♥.

    • All the chick had to do was to use the brochures to disseminate the lower grades to others, or dispose of them. Big deal! But there again, the alleged STATUS given to Scientologists becomes a trap to so many of them.

  27. Crashing Upwards

    creepy. at best. Right out of the “do you still beat your wife?” playbook.

  28. Wendy Munro

    A sociopath would never tell you how to spot a sociopath. How could Marty be a sociopath when he publicly and repeatedly says tells anyone who will listen, how to spot them?

    As an aside, Steve Hall aka “Thoughtful”, and Haydn James have both publicly distanced themselves from Milestone 2 on the iscientology blog. (I mention this as a fact – not intending to imply anything by it, but it may be that some, including yourself, don’t know. I don’t know the circumstances other than that which appears on the blog.)

  29. Sociopaths feel no remorse so they do not read on the meter on O/W’s.
    I wrote a KR on a guy in the Sea Org for abusing staff. I wrote exactly what he said and did, exactly. He denied EVERYTHING and was ordered for a sec check. He came out CLEAN! Made me look like a looney! I was FLABBERGHASTED! I just could NOT understand it! And of course, I was totally discredited. I only figured it out after I read the book above that Marty is recommending.

    I also realized that sociopaths can APPEAR very UPTONE! Charismatic! If you had no remorse imagine how uptone you might be! Laughter!!!

    When you are a Scientologist you are used to associating uptone ness with theta! So they can go right by you in this community!
    They talk the talk! The words are chosen carefully and used to manipulate people and situations. They habitually lie so in fact, in their communication DOES NOT bring REAL ARC. A lie actually reduces ARC and it falsifies reality. They can talke and talk and talk and your ARC might be O.K. but guess what? The more they lie the LESS ARC they have for YOU!

    Excessive lying or habitual lying is a trait.

    This is the why for their lack of regard for the welfare of others and typical lack of conscience. They really do not have ARC with you or for you. Anything is said true or false to manipulate and DOMINATE. NOT for the purpose have HAVING ARC! ARC is NOT POSSIBLE for them!
    Liars continually reduce ARC. You think you are on the same page with them with a reality. You never are. They are USERS and only have connections that are USABLE people.

    ” Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
    Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively. ”

  30. Wendy Munro

    You have hit the bull’s eye with points 1 and 2, Marty. Everything else is the ripple effect. We saw this in second world war Germany, and we are seeing this now in North Korea. Its not whole nations that are full of sociopathic people, its a few sociopaths who have gotten to the top in highly structured organisations. Most people are decent – and some of them are selfless. The more selfless they are, the more they will be willing to help the greater good at their own expense. And if the greater good is subtly manipulated until it is reversed or dressed up in lamb’s clothing, it will pass unnoticed, with decent people unwittingly expounding the virtues of a disguised hell, thereby vouching for its credibility, and so pulling in even more decent people. That’s the trap.

    I once was unwitting and now I perceive – thanks largely to your help, Marty.

  31. Cooper Kessel

    You have moved to the top of my list of red flag individuals.

  32. Every time I read KSW and came to the part where it said that its bank think that says the group is everything and the individual nothing, I couldn’t help think to myself – that’s the Sea Org. The mentality of the Sea Org is that the group is everything and the individual nothing.

  33. Globetrotter

    Re. “Destructive Mind Control”:

    Not sure if this has made it to this blog before, but I find it really interesting how incredibly accurate it is when it comes to the Sea Org:

  34. Gerhard Waterkamp above stated,

    “They often confuse their knowledge of a servo mechanism for the mind and some knowledge of the mind itself as the totally of what can be known about the mind, life, groups and anything related to the human existence.”

    Absolutely, I agree.

    If scientologists really believe that purpose is SENIOR to policy, then the entire subject has been turned around by becoming the Be-All and End- All of existence.

    Dianetics and Scientology were promoted, sold and presented by LRH as every man’s Tool to the mind, and as a practical Know-How to attaining knowledge.

    That it was then turned into a single source, authoritarian religious cult is at the core of the bait and switch that has taken place, and the ensuing confusion of its members.

    The way to grow up spiritually with scientology is to acknowledge its power and effectiveness in solving problems of the human mind AND humbly contextualize it and integrate it as very helpful adjunct to Life.

  35. Do you have the courage to read Marty’s books?
    If you had read the sociopath next door you would know that telling someone or getting that person to admit to being a sociopath is an absurd exercise.
    Your line of thinking is really heavy and pointless.
    Reading Science of survival might help as well.

  36. My sentiments exactly.

  37. Red flag individuals? Just for asking a question that you would not ask? The term red flag people is still Scientology jargon masked.

    The mindset of attack is still alive and well in different language.

    You may completely disagree with Robin. You may think he is wrong. But though I disagree with him, his point of anyone who accepts certain tenants of Scientology will become a sociopath is not an unreasonable statement.

    Red Flag individual? SP? Enemy? Same thing.

    It’s not just words that need to find the trash bin, but the concepts that underly them. The mindset that has been created. Just because someone challenges Marty doesn’t mean they are bad.

    To a great degree, the success of of X’s will depend on how they deal with direct questions of realities. Crushing controversies will ensure they continue.

    Civil dialog will increase respect and harmony. Especially controversial subjects.

    All knowledge is worthy of discussion. Avoidance of subjects is evidence of denial.

  38. Gerhard Waterkamp

    You missed the point when you referred to Elitism. The big recruiting basis for the Nazis in Germany were the underprivileged in material wealth and mental capacity. It was was easy to join the if one was Arien by birth. They got fancy Uniforms and Titles and were told they are now part of the upper elite of mankind. Finally they were somebody, finally they had some power and could look down on other non Ariens. That was the mechanism that made it so attractive for the less gifted. And there they went committing crimes and works of destruction.
    I am not aware that Harvard, Yale have necessary created that level of crimes and destruction.
    So I would call it false Elitism. The problem comes about if you take a bum and give him a fancy uniform and tell him he is now part of the elite, he will often do anything to protect his status now.

  39. Oracle, true that you could have a hard time getting
    a read on O/W’s when you have a sociopath on a
    meter but with enough undercuts and varying of the
    question to hit their level of ARC the reads will show
    Case in point (Sherman speak, LOL), I put some
    Narconon students on a meter after a series of thefts
    had happened in that NN and nobody fessed up. One
    student had a nice clean needle but was a bit “shifty”
    so after a lot of prodding I finally just asked “have you
    done anything bad” and the needle hit the pin and we
    had to spend the next 40 mins cleaning up just the
    surface charge. Do not know where he was on the scale
    of being a sociopath but LRH certainly had a remedy for
    that type of situation too.

  40. Still running PR ops against Marty, like you have been for some a couple of years or so, eh Robin ? How is your crop of “medical” marijuana this year ?

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  41. Warren Marston

    Well, there would be one other change — no Class 5 orgs, just independently-owned Missions. That would avoid the bloated staffs and overdone dev-t admin of today’s orgs, that tremendously reduce the value of staff pay units. Back in the real golden age (late 60’s and early 70’s) Missions were run entrepreneurially by their owners, and selectively hired only as many staff members as they really needed. As a result, successful Missions could pay a living wage albeit a low one. And in the Missions, organizational duress, as you call it, was low. As the Distrib Sec of the Mission where I worked in 1969 at age 21, I never felt administratively oppressed, and I personally made about $1200/mo in today’s dollars . Living a student lifestyle I could easily get by on that. Plus staff got free auditor training. We were limited to the HSDC course (forerunner of the NED course when Dianetics came before Scientology Grades), but we easily could have delivered Academy Levels too, if we’d been allowed to. A mission today, delivering the full training and co-auditing route to Clear, could provide a very attractive 5-year staff opportunity for early-20’s Scientologists. It would be like going to grad school. After that, when more income would be needed in order to raise families, etc., some “graduating” staff would find ways to stay on as higher-paid execs, while others could go into practice as field auditors, or open their own Missions, or re-enter the wog world with “regular” jobs.

  42. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    Bingo !
    Nagel auf dem Kopf getroffen !
    An Org board is all about status, power, authority etc….What I never understood that many times people with low IQ, no real qualifications etc.. could move fast up the org board and order their nonsense and those people always demonstarted 100% certainty on their post, even when they did the biggest nonsense. It was abig problem always for me to understand it. I never could understand it, but looked for the non-understanding to be my fault !
    I start tiô understand and even know more that I don’t know !

  43. Crashing Upwards

    Brian. You make a lot of points that a rational and reasonable person would agree with. And we have discussed on this blog how labeling can be abused. But plenty of us tune out and do not read certain posters whose content we find of no value. I don’t have to read every posing and comment. Whether you call it red flag or ignore. But beyond saying you disagree with Robin, you don’t address the 1.1 entrapment tactics used. You state that the issue is anyone accepting certain tenets of scientology is a sociopath. That is NOT what Marty wrote, at all. He states Sociopaths can thrive in highly structured groups of well meaning people. You didn’t duplicate the original post and you didn’t confront the 1.1 comments but took issue on a response which I also think you failed to duplicate. But other than that your post flows nicely and has some altruistic prose against which its hard to object.

  44. Cooper Kessel

    Struck a chord with you? I’m just sayin’ how it is for me.

    “Red Flag individual? SP? Enemy? Same thing. ”

    Not the same and none of the above. Cheers!

  45. Cooper Kessel


  46. Cooper Kessel

    “The term red flag people is still Scientology jargon masked. ”

    Really? Masked as what? I have not heard the term in the CO$ other that use as a red tag on a PC folder. What say you?

  47. martyrathbun09

    Fact of the matter is Robin’s original statement was more indicative of sociopathy than those he implied shared his characteristic.

  48. Those were exactly my thoughts as a Class V org staff member. I’d think how ironic it was that all I had to do was look at any Scientology org or mission to see a perfect example of “It’s the bank that says the group is all and the individual nothing.”

    Once I had a senior in the CLO Finance Office ask me how my first dynamic was. I answered flippantly that I didn’t think I was allowed to have one. And she seemed pleased with that answer!

  49. There had been people that knew what was going on. They did not only observe or talk. They did act. Let me tell some little sample. We had one innocent looking staff that had been the main person in HCO that signed all that „non enturbulation orders“, ordered all the sec checking, threw out many by declare. Then I went into HCO and removed that person after some hard work. Later that same person as being upstat in throwing out many of us had been promoted into Senior HCO Eu to continue the work. I told a Sea Org mission about what I observed. But instead of looking this mission wanted to SP declare me. Then soon after that in Copenhagen the first police raid occured. In order to clean up this situation I payed on my own a travel to Copenhagen to assist cleaning up the situation. Finally this person could be identified and had been removed from the Sea Org. On a local org level one could observe that for many years there have been some staff on a low level org board position. After one of those sociopath type persons came into power position those waiting had been liftet up the lines and the butchering started. This is not a one person only thing. Sure David Miscavige is a good sample of Sociopath personality taking over power. But he is not the only one. We call that „the rats coming out of the holes“. As soon as one evil intentioned master is on stage and taking over control of an area those similar minded feel save to show up on stage to live their evil purposes. Those evil purposes had always been there near the surface. But good people had enough power to uphold enough disciplin that those evil purposes did not pop up on the surface. This is the oringinal message of KSW or similar writings of L. Ron Hubbard. Not to suppress the good people. But now as the rats run the show KSW and other references are twisted 180 degrees. Each society small or large faced the same procedure. Good people not tough enough and then the evil taking over the show. L. Ron Hubbard wanted to avoid this by telling us we should be tougher this time. But we did not listen.

  50. There you go again speaking from your own deranged experiences and PTS condition. Of course you are right about a sociopath doing those terrible things. But you obviously NEVER worked in and Ideal Org. When I worked in the a FSO in the late 1970’s and ’80 that kind of deranged behavior was in short supply. The majority of the staff did not do what you said and it was an incredible crew. Students that were on the OEC and FEBC were sent over to the FSO as a drill to observe an IDEAL ORG. When they came over they were blown away by the particle flow of the staff and often were keyed out just being in the space and often went to the Examiner to originate a cognition or two. LRH was heavy on the lines and even declared us the “FINES CREW IN SCIENTOLOGY HISTORY.” WE never even heard the name “Marty Rathbun” back then nor did we even hear mention of little davey and mikey. You are the clowns that came in later on the chain and failed to really keep Scientology working in your own areas. FLUNK!

  51. Tom Gallagher


    I’ll liken this to a horse race. We have in gate number one: The cult, i.e., RCS.

    And in gate number two we have: Cult-lite, “milestone too”.

    And in gate three we have independents who also advocate workability, common-sense and integration, etc.

    Sadly, In gate four is the human race and they are riding a lame donkey whose nickname is ‘glue factory’.

    I’m going to put my $2.00 bet on ‘glue factory’ because gate number three outflanked the two leading horses at the finish line with unprecedented jockeying.

    By the way, horse number three was named Truth.

  52. Tom Gallagher

    The Borg demands assimilation.

  53. He must have had a conscience! Laughter! I am not trained but up until the incident with that guy lying I didn’t know it was possible to go undetected on a meter. I thought it was the all seeing all knowing gizmo that “knew” EVERYTHING! Being out of the Church and watching those OSA people , the “Squirrel Busters” has made me think about it even more. I wonder if they think they did anything “bad” or they are proud of themselves for following orders? All of the bad P.R. gone viral on the Internet. I wonder how many people will NEVER go near a Scientology Org because of that. It was not beneficial to any Scientologist. The ded / ded dedex /dedex factor is what the O.S.A. staff float on. “He deserves this” . It is right in the tech dictionary how aberrated this is. These staff volunteer to wear sociopathic hats. Fair gaming working auditors. You would think at some point they would ask themselves, how they arrived at volunteering to go out and act as suppressive people. Wouldn’t you get emotionally caved in seeing yourself on youtube acting this way towards someone else? Enturbulating the whole neighborhood and making the Church look like a cult of loose cannons? Somewhere inside they have to KNOW what a dis service they have done to every Scientologist on the planet. Look at the hate web sites! Like teen agers bullying on twitter! There is something so juvenile about all of this. I wonder about David and these other CMO kids that go in at the age of 15 or 16. They have not socially progressed in some way and come off as juvenile delinquents. Even the Int Execs lying on national television. The Squirrel Busters. Like a group of kids hassling some team mate after school! Ed Bryan or whatever his name is, OT8, busted stealing tickets to enter some event in Florida! At his age! A juvenile delinquent! At his age acting like a juvenile delinquent! And how does he excuse that? John Allender and he are OT8’s and look what they are willing to do! Floating on DED DEDEX!
    I remember when I was eight years old getting busted with a friend for ringing a neighbors door bell and running away and having to face the homeowner. These people still seem to have the idea that your behavior isn’t what matters, it is what you can away with! That is juvenile delinquency on every level. How do you fix something that? Give them a child’s sec check? Yes! Have you seen the child’s sec check? It is the perfect sec check for an OSA staff member!

    Security Check Children

    Bulletin September 21, 1961

    The following is a processing check for use on children.

    Be sure the child can understand the question. Re phrase it so he or she can understand it. The first question is the most potent.

    Children’s Security Check Ages 6 – 12

    What has somebody told you not to tell?
    Have you ever decided you did not like some member of your family?
    Have you ever taken something belonging to somebody else and never given it back?
    Have you ever pretended to be sick (ill)?
    Have you ever made yourself sick (ill), or hurt yourself to make somebody sorry?
    Have you even wanted something every much, but never told anybody about it?
    Have you ever gotten yourself dirty on purpose?
    Have you ever refused to eat just to worry someone?
    Have you ever remembered something about yourself and not told anybody, because you thought they wouldn’t believe you, or be angry at you?
    Have you ever refused to obey an order from someone you should obey?
    Have you ever told another child something that wasn’t true, just to frighten or upset him?
    Have you ever bullied a smaller child?
    Have you ever deliberately got another child, or a grown-up, into trouble?
    Have you ever pestered grown people, who were trying to work?
    Have you ever been mean, or cruel, to an animal, bird or fish?
    Have you ever forgotten to give food or water to a pet entrusted to your care?
    Have you ever broken something belonging to someone else?
    Have you ever deliberately spoiled clothing of yours because you didn’t like it?
    Do you have a secret?
    Have you ever noticed something wrong with your body that you were afraid to tell anybody about?
    Have you ever done anything you were very much ashamed of?
    Is there anything about you your parents could not understand, even if you told them?
    Have you ever failed to finish your schoolwork on time?
    Have you ever flunked an examination at school?
    Have you ever deliberately given a teacher trouble?
    Have you ever tried to make others dislike some teacher?
    Have you ever tried to make another child unpopular?
    Have you ever broken, damaged, or taken, any school property?
    Have you ever lied to a teacher?
    Have you ever been late to school, or late to a class?
    Have you ever stayed away from school, when you could have gone??
    Have you ever cheated by copying someone else’s work, taking notes into an examination, or looking up answers in a book when you weren’t supposed to?
    Have you ever spoiled things for somebody?
    Who have you made guilty?
    Have you ever done something you shouldn’t when you were supposed to be in bed or asleep?
    Have you ever told others bad stories about someone?
    Have you ever tried to make others believe that your parents, or teachers, were cruel to you?
    Have you ever offered as an excuse for something you have done wrong that you are only a child, or that you haven’t grown up yet?
    Have you ever felt that your parents and home were too good for you?
    Have you ever felt that your parents and home weren’t good enough for you?
    Is there anything you should tell your parents, and never have?
    Have you ever done anything to some else’s body that you shouldn’t have?
    Have you ever told anyone that you did something, when you hadn’t really done it?
    Have you ever told anyone that you hadn’t done something which you really had done?
    Have you ever ganged up on another child and made fun of him because he was different from the rest of you?
    Have you ever made fun of another because of the way he looked?
    Have you ever decided never to talk to someone again?
    Have you ever made your parents or teachers work harder than they should?
    Have you ever decided that you were too bright, or too smart for the other kids?
    Have you ever annoyed an adult by something you did or said?
    Have you ever hurt a child?
    Have you ever mae a child cry?
    Have you ever made a child sulk?
    Have you ever kept another child from having something that really belonged to him?
    Have you ever found anything and failed to return it to its owner?
    Have you ever told stories about someone behind their back?
    Have you ever lied to escape blame?
    Have you ever not told the whole truth about something so as to protect someone?
    Have you ever felt ashamed of your parents?
    Have you ever disappointed your parents?
    Have you ever run away when you should have stayed?
    Have you ever felt sure your parents wouldn’t understand something that had happened in school, so you didn’t tell them?
    Have you ever not told teachers something about your family because they wouldn’t understand it?
    Have you ever failed to keep another child’s secret?
    Have you ever felt it was just no use talking to someone?
    Have you ever hurt someone you didn’t mean to?
    Have you ever been sloppy about your clothes or possessions?
    Have you ever cried when you shouldn’t have?
    Have you ever been a coward?
    Have you ever made too much fuss over a little hurt?
    Have you ever tried to make your parents believe you were doing better in school than you were?
    Have you ever told on anyone?
    Have you ever teased younger children?
    Have you ever mae a mess and not helped to clean it up?
    Have you ever broken or damaged something and never told anybody it was you who did it?
    Have you ever let someone else get punished for something you did?
    Have you ever cried till you got your own way?
    Have you ever decided “Someday, when I’m grown up, I’ll get even”? If so, with whom?
    Have you ever picked on someone smaller than yourself?
    Have you ever upset anyone by throwing a temper tantrum?
    Have you ever hurt anyone by telling them you didn’t love them any more?
    Have you ever made out that you were more badly damaged than you were in order to make someone stop picking on you?
    Have you ever pretended to like someone that you didn’t like in order to satisfy your parents?

  54. Tom Gallagher

    Tony you wrote, “I would be inclined to listen to the person getting the most results.”

    I suggest “results” needs to be graphed against 7 billion or so fellow human beings.

    Moreover, consider this: How are we human beings going to get out of this collective spiritual morass?

    At this point it is not more of the same. It might even start with reading ‘The Sociopath Next Door’.

    These “flat earth’ spiritual notions need be parked in the junk yard. Cult-Lite amounts to a new pile of manure. It stinks just the same.

  55. A sociopath might seem very uptone to someone but in my opinion only to someone that was a notch or two lower in tone than the sociopath. So if the sociopath (let’s say DM for example) was 1.1 all the time and percieved as uptone, well, by golly, that would be some really uptone people! 🙂 So when dealing with the Church of Scientology, the way out is always the nearest dooooooooooooor! 🙂

  56. I agree Lordburg12. I keep asking, “If the policies that were supposed to be in place allowed this mess to occur, what’s going to keep it from happening again?” Oh, I know, we’re going to get perfect people this time so it will all go theetie-wheetie blissful. NOT! What is the one most outstanding flaw? The military style organization where it only takes one person to get up to a post where he/she can force others to do their bidding because they cannot talk back to a senior. This is KEY!

  57. Haven’t read the book yet so perhaps someone can tell me if it talks about what to really do about them. Being aware of sociopaths is a great thing. I just hope it doesn’t forget to mention the real problem: us. I’ve said this before and I say it again. The problem is not the sociopaths. While it can help us decipher what is wrong with SC I would be very careful as not to name a new target without mentioning that the real cause of problems is us. Sociopaths thrive on the unassuming nature of well-meaning folks. They will continue with their parasitic behavior as long as there is fertile soil. Like parasites they find a host and suck it dry. Then they will migrate to new a new host. New ones also spawn from unfortunate circumstances as well as from being victimized by sociopaths. They are like a parasite combined with a virus. Even if you survive the the “feeding” you might get infected. The only way they can be stopped if by some miracle (over time) the message makes it to as much of the public as possible. The problem isn’t them. The ability to pretend exists in all of us. It can be abused. The problem is US not knowing about human nature.

  58. I think I posted before I gave it due thought. In re reading things I probably won’t have even posted.

    I may have made more to it than it actually was.

    Rewind and erase, I was not here 🙂 But thank you guys for your responses.

  59. Tom Gallagher

    Sociopaths ply their trade. At the higher levels they brag.

    “Who controls the food supply controls the people; who controls the energy can control whole continents; who controls money can control the world.” – Henry Kissinger

  60. Tom Gallagher


    You’ve described a business model that works. Thanks.

  61. Tom Gallagher

    Two quotes to end my thoughts tonight-

    “The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants.” – Albert Camus

    “We hold that each man is the best judge of his own interest.” – President John Adams

  62. martyrathbun09

    You consistently demonstrate the traits of a social personality – for real.

  63. cre8tivewmn

    And that has to do with.what?

    Juvenile attempt to re-direct the subject.

  64. hmmm…if you were on staff at FSO, that would make you Sea Org…I mean, EX Sea Org. If it was so wonderful, why did you leave? And why did you let the clowns take over? That doesn’t sound very KSW of you.

  65. Thank you Marty

  66. Not to mention pointing the finger to someone else to be the “public enemy” for the sheep. Nice constant decoy they use to hide themselves. Hey look at what that guy is doing! I guess as they spend a lifetime screwing people over they get really good at it. When we start waking up to them we need our practice to catch up. Probably we need our 10K hours in – like Malcolm Gladwell says – on the art of detecting them before we really get good at it.

  67. Sorry but I don’t get what you are talking about.
    My only point was that if someone audits by themselves or if a group is working together auditing people , I tend to listen to the ones that are creating the best results. That goes for non-auditing groups as well.
    I do agree that people in general have a low confront on handling psychopaths. Witness RCS. Witness the military.

  68. I think right now David Miscavige is getting the most results. According to him. According to him, he is the ONLY ONE getting any results. Everyone else is just a liability or a dev t particle.

    He is making Clears and OTs and student comps left right and center! His stats are all over Mike Rinders blog! His shameless SELF PROMOTION is at an all time high.

    He just doesn’t show graphs, give out names of the products so they can be verified, bring his wife along to events or burden the rest of us with accounting.

    Unlike Marty, he also does not give out a home address for his many safe houses, a telephone number, or any way to find or locate him to verify any of these “results” he constantly promotes! He is nebulous about it all. You see these emails forwarded to Mike. Hundreds of students! Two Solo Nots comps a week! No names. No graphs. And according to him he is the only one of any REAL value and getting results in the Scientology arena except for Tom Cruise.

    And HUNDREDS of people are buying it hook line and sinker. It sounds plausible! The greatest international expansion ever!

  69. And there is not one method provided to verify any report of results. Not ONE! Go on, try to verify something and see how far you get!

  70. Obviously you have not read Steve Hall’s blog and you are forwarding a false report at the same time you are asking a question. Steve Hall was and is NOT a part of Milestone2. That was ILLUSION.

    Evidence of Marty’s change is all over the Internet. If you haven’t noticed it that is by CHOICE.

    Your ONLY PURPOSE towards Marty has been to UNMOCK him. For YEARS.

    That says more about you than it does about Marty.

    Sadism: Sadism – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Sadism is the derivation of pleasure as a result of inflicting pain, cruelty, degradation, or humiliation, or, watching such behaviors inflicted on others.

    -23 on the LOWER awareness scale.

  71. Don’t you think your evals and why’s should be handed out on an individual basis?

    It is YOUR opinion that all knowledge is worthy of discussion and that anyone not interested or put off is in “denial”. While you reject Cooper’s viewpoint totally! Sounds to me like YOU are in denial.

    “Red Flag” = Enemy = Sp =..etc etc etc. Maybe TO YOU.

    To me it = it’s dictionary definition and nothing more.

    red flag
    1. A warning signal.
    2. Something that demands attention or provokes an irritated reaction.

    That you would take someone’s words and translate them into toher words the author never USED or IMPLIED and then assign a case evaluation towards them, shows me you are fucking tripping. And taking liberties with someone else’s meaning and DEFACING the author.

    You announce: “Avoidance of subjects is evidence of denial.”

    NO BRIAN. That is called POWER OF CHOICE.

    Marty does not OWE it to YOU to be verbally assaulted and abused.

    And I don’t owe it you to “accept” verbal abuse and invalidation on an others to others flow. Otherwise I am “handicapped” with some “denial mechanism”

    This all mind fucking shit. This a wrong item and a wrong indication. Not only for me. It is called “making less of others”.

    If can’t spot someone running an evil purpose to unmock somebody else you have the denial problems. Who really is supposed to tolerate this social intercourse so it can fester and expand across society? Apparently YOU!

  72. Upon reading KSW again after having read it once a while ago (thankfully never having been in the position of having it drilled into me countless times), there are a few things about it that I’ve noticed.

    Firstly, it looks possible to give this a semi-literal reading and come out the other end with one’s individual integrity intact. But it’s a challenging read.

    If this is literally taken as the fundamental basis for everything, particularly given the tone, it could easily cause one’s mind to become hardened up a great deal.

    To me, it’s a shame if this happens, as doing so seems to defeat the original purpose of Scientology in the first place.

    I only just came across a quote from Dec 1957, in the Ability Congress:

    “But anything which you must not touch and upon which you are not supposed to have any effect at all will sooner or later make you the unwilling or unknowing effect of it. Right?

    And if I tell you, ‘Under no circumstances should you alter, change, think about, Scientology’ —dizzz— all I’ve done is set up another monster. Right?

    And in a world that is all too prone to build Frankensteins, we don’t need another one!”

    So, if one is to take KSW entirely at face value, then what happened in the seven intervening years to cause such a radical change of outlook?

    I’m not saying for certain that this change didn’t occur, but perhaps there’s a way to reconcile it whereby both statements have currency?

    First of all, I’m wondering, is there anything remotely resembling KSW that was issued before that Dec 1957 quote was made?

    Secondly, as to KSW itself, I’ve noticed a couple of things:

    “I once had the idea that a group could evolve truth. A third of a century has thoroughly disabused me of that idea.”

    That’s 33 years.

    To be thoroughly convinced about something, it would take a long time; in light of this, it could be read that he had the idea of a group being able to “evolve truth” a long time ago – longer than seven years at least.

    He goes on to say:

    “Supporting this is the fact that Man has never before evolved workable mental technology…”

    This apparently conflicts with his earlier statements that it’s possible to go Clear with Buddhism (at least).

    Even as late as 1961, he made statements about Buddha and his followers having strong realisations (but in the estimation of LRH, the proper application of that religion had dwindled).

    So there’s four years between that statement and KSW.

    To continue, in KSW he says that everything that actually was “evolved” turned out problematic and harmful. But you can hardly compare “shock treatment, whips, duress…” to Buddhism, can you.

    So, could it possibly be seen that there’s a difference here between the term “evolve” and the term “discover”? i.e. you can’t evolve truth by group consensus; you can merely discover it.

    And as for:

    “This is a deadly serious activity. And if we miss getting out of the trap now, we may never again have another chance.”

    I’ve seen this being said even in Buddhism a number of times. “Our human rebirth is precious; we’ve come into contact in the dharma, so don’t waste it or you never know when your next chance might be.”

    Personally I think it’s hyperbolic but not without merit.

    Not sure about “this is our first chance” though! What, in all the galaxy? Not a single Theta being before him has managed to come down here and manifest a path?

    What’s clear is that someone went a little bit nuts, and LRH was not happy at all about what he saw as negligence and disregard for an individual. He doesn’t seem to be saying that you have to force a single solution. (The target of this letter doesn’t seem to be ordinary students but people with high responsibility).

    (and, is the term “that didn’t work” a code for “they flipped out”?)


    “Instructor A was found to have huge ideas of how you must never invalidate anyone, even a lunatic.”

    I suppose this quotation alone could be used as a reason to get a psychopath under the thumb.

    In any case I am just trying to look at this from a different angle in order to try reconciling it with all the 50s teachings that I’ve been immersed in. At the very least I don’t understand why it should form the true basis for Scientology (it really can’t, because that body of knowledge has to exist first), and my basic understanding of Scientology itself is… questioning, discovery, and ARC.

  73. I think it has everything to do with it. Robin demands to know: “Can you point me to any evidence that shows that your behaviour has changed?”

    How had Robin’s behavior changed over the last decade? If he farming weed while Marty takes on the government in Germany to safe point Scientology?

  74. Cooper Kessel

    I understand. Thanks for letting me know! Best to you!

  75. Cooper Kessel

    Nail ,,,,,,meet hammer!!!!!!!!!!!!! +100

  76. Marty, I have read your advice numerous times about this book and put it on the backburner of my numerous and varied “one of these days” lists. I guess this time your advice seemed to impinge quite clearly and soundly. I acquired the book this morning on my Kindle and spent the day reading it until I finished.

    I have become disinclined to make generalities, considering my past track record of making useless, blanket recommendations (e.g., “You MUST check out [insert various and sundry books or practices] … it will change your life forever!) However, after today’s intensive reading, I feel this book is essential reading for humanity, especially those of us who hold dearly the individualistic, humanistic values of Western culture. I do not wish to denigrate these values that I hold so dearly to heart, as I tend to regard myself as rather a loner, and I am not quite willing to give up that “de Tocquevillien” self-image of rugged individualism. However, the extremism of true sociopathy and the ease of preying upon individualized, reflective thinkers has given me a BALKING pause in my own, private, individual values.

    As a teacher, I work under a tremendously intelligent superintendent who seems bent upon destroying those students, teachers, and families who do not conform to her interpretation of standards-based education. While her immediate solutions and reprimands seem initially sensible, ultimately, those subjected to her solutions are destroyed. How is this good for the ultimate, laudable goal of public, democratic education?

    Stout’s book has given me a great deal of support and affirmation. However, I am as perplexed as ever. Now that my fears and suspicions have been confirmed, how do I now deal with what I know to be true? That my boss is a Sociopath? It is not so easy to stand up and say to her, “That’s really mean. Stop it!” Such bravery would cost me my job – and in my remote, rural setting, such a fate is profoundly life changing.

    I am not expecting solutions to my musings. Rather, Marty, I thank you for encouraging me (everyone) to look and to learn. What we learn may not be pretty, but at least we are better equipped to observe what is right there in front of our noses.

    Thank you.


  77. Cooper Kessel

    And at lower levels they blame and degrade. (see Dave, I mean Jay above)

  78. Snoopy's Uncle

    OSA operates above the overt-motivator sequence 😉 so why bother.

  79. As far as Jim Logan and M2, and the “group” disavowals. Jim was the first person to disavowal the Freezone. He posted this on Marty’s blog and held up someone for fair game:

    Jim Logan | March 19, 2012 at 7:27 am | Reply
    Up until this past week doing an informal sort of survey while in LA, I would have agreed with you, generally. Now, an emphatic NO on certain aspects of the “freezone”.

    For instance, there is one particular person to avoid. He informed me he was going in a “different direction than KSW” and that he’s running, randomly, without proper CSing, training, and the preclear properly set up – Power Processing. This is not just some process, this is one of THE most exact processes that requires exactitude and if mis-done can and does wreak havoc with preclears.

    He also apparently does this over the phone, and HE holds the cans.

    Dexter Gelfand is his name.


    Jim Logan | March 20, 2012 at 7:37 am | Reply
    Dexter Gelfand’s abuse of Scientology is egregious. Public revelation of his blatant violations of this material is important FOR THE PUBLIC.

    If this guy thinks this is unfair, well, he can sue me. In the meantime, I am cleaning up messes made by these so-called auditors. My patience with this particular individual is non-existent at this time. Should he cease committing present time, continual overt acts and come to his senses, the door to correction is open – a crack.

    None of this is meant to inval any of your gains. Well done to you.


    Jim Logan | March 19, 2012 at 7:37 am | Reply
    See my comment above on Dexter Gelfand.


    Jim Logan | March 20, 2012 at 7:58 am | Reply
    Thank you for your enthusiasm, your dedication and your compassion. I’m tracking right along with you here.

    In this particular instance, I have no compunction about stamping on this particular individual’s blatant “know best” and factually dangerous abuse of a very specific piece of technology. I have zero hesitation in 7,8,9 and 10 when it comes to this kind of suppressive out-tech. Neither for Dexter nor David Miscavige and in this case one is as bad as the other when it comes to serious abuse of the materials of Scientology.

    IF either one comes to their senses and is willing to actually cease the overts of harmful renditions delivered to other beings, well in that case, on goes the other hat and I’ll be willing to adjust the KRC level to a more appropriate state.

    Again, I appreciate what YOU do.

    I can observe what I observe and say what I observe. In this case, I would be grossly remiss were I not to do just that.


    At my home Jim announced he was “On a mission to put ethics in on the Freezone”.


    The Freezone has been around for more than a few decades and has been producing and making libraries. One of which I GAVE to JIM!

    They paved the way.

    Jim felt perfectly fine making a public proclamation and private against them as a group .

    Nobody said a thing.

    So I don’t see why people should get a huff about anyone who merely said they did not want to support or become a member of M2! At least nobody has been held up for fair game or public execution so when their name is Googled their practice if effected!

  80. For your information, Dexter Gelfand whatever he does with his PRIVATE practice, is HIGHER TRAINED and had MORE auditing Experience than Jim Logan. He sat in the chair as an auditor in New York for FIVE years, down on the streets with his sleeves rolled up. There is NO history of him having a dissatisfied P.C. out here. NONE.

    How does HIS value get reduced to NOTHING overnight even though he has produced more results?

    How is THAT for injustice and illusion?

    If Jim can go there, I really don’t think someone saying they do not want to buy memberships from him is going to be an issue for him.

    So why is it an issue for anybody else?

  81. A lot of good, balanced perspective here, IMHO.
    The creation of the S.O. and its rapid devolution into an “oxymoronic ‘paramilitary religious’ organization” and the contra-survival intentions of many of those who rose to the top of that organization were the main things that stopped the spread of the beneficial products and potential good influences of the subject of Scientology for the people of Earth. It was a perfect storm of aberrated INDIVIDUAL choices, later nurtured, developed, and orchestrated by Miscavige.

  82. Dexter is an interned Class lV auditor that was clearing people in New York while Jim was fly fishing in Canada.

    The Freezone has been around for two decades.

    Mike Moores group has been around for about ten years or even more.

    Slander can fly left right and center towards these people unchallenged for what reason?

    They are “The field”.

    Someone says they don’t want to purchase a group membership from a Former declared Sea Org member, who never made it his life career to audit and it goes over like blasphemy!

    I am a former Sea Org member and I can assure everyone out here, I DO NOT need extra praise or worship because of MY volunteer work.

    The Class lV Org Staff and Mission have staff HAVE IT HARDER THAN SEA ORG STAFF!

    They work about the same funky hours WHILE keeping a roof over their own head, buying their own clothes, paying for their own bridge, caring for and raising their own children, and providing for their own utilities and food.

    These, and Me, FORMER Sea Org Staff have JOINED YOU in the field! NOT the other way around.

    The “ruling class” OUT HERE is the FIELD. Let’s keep it REAL folks!

  83. I have really had it with Former Sea Org staff suddenly showing up out of nowhere suddenly curious again, and smacking people around and bullying them and grandstanding on the labor of people who have carried the torch out here for decades. Some of them in their 80’s!

    Marty, Karen, Dan Koon, many many others including David Mayo, have been out here with their interests working hard, contributing, treating others with respect and decency.

    How Marty has been positioned by some as the BULLY in THEATER because he didn’t condone one start up group is BEYOND ME! He gets along with EVERYONE! He even treats reporters with respect!

    Honestly sometimes I feel like I am the only one that ISN”T ON LSD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  84. Does it occur to ANYONE that perhaps some people are NOT endorsing the new start up group because the propensity for abuse has already manifested? It has already been mocked up? And NOT by Marty!!!

  85. Get the FUCKING SUPPRESSION off the Freezone and the Founding Independents! Most of these people are senior citizens and have been auditing before M2 founders were born!

    A start up group DOES NOT bother me!

    The abuse and suppression and injustice and domination DOES!

    And it isn’t coming from Marty Rathbun!

  86. Good post. I think you are referring to “Confront of evil”, lack thereof. It is not an easy thing.

  87. SOME of us are OVER “The group is all the individual is nothing” concept! Peer pressure, extortion, black P.R. campaigns , public executions, fair gaming, inval eval wrong whys wrong whos, explusions are NOT going to change that. We have been down this road before!

  88. We are IMMUNE to the herding, domination, illusion and suppression. THAT is our crime!

    And it isn’t coming from Marty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  89. From The Social Personality by LRH:
    “The frailty of showing how the harmful people can be known is that these then apply the characteristics to decent people to get them hunted down and eradicated.”

  90. This John Allender or Ed Bryant behaviour
    got me thinking:
    Ron in a tape once talked about this exec he met
    (I think on an airplane) and this guy was pretty
    solid to the point of really thinking that the only
    thing he would truly miss in a nuclear holocaust
    would be his social security card! Ron then joked
    about it and said he told the guy “give me that hand”
    “thank you”, “give me that hand”… Maybe DM’s exec
    C/S-ing of redo of the objectives will backfire on him
    in more ways than one.
    Maturity develops from education, processing
    (spiritual enlightenment) and the environmental
    factor. IMHO there is a Jo-Jo mechanism in place
    in COS. Key-outs from processes then key-in
    from a lot of the other stuff Scio is offering/enforcing.
    So the R6 bank is in constant restimulation.

  91. Great observations. Chairman MouseScabBitch however took things beyond reciting pl or hcob to fit his needs. He has been busily rewriting and destroying the paper trail for years. I had a personal loathsome experience with some RTC thugs who gang banged me for standing up for standard Issue authority lines when GAT first came out. I was told with ferocity that RTC could make LRH say anything that they wanted him to say. Further either I went along or got declared!
    Shades of the Gestapo.So much for being guardians of the tech.

  92. Oh, you hit the nail on head! We are on the same page Roger. I don’t get it either!

  93. So true Mat! Thank you!

  94. martyrathbun09

    Science of Survival gives a lot of good information on that score.

  95. I read with mindfulness meditation people can change and increase empathy even visible in the appropirate brain areas. Maybe it is wrong to just “declare” people SP or sociopath and try to get rid of them by avoiding them or kicking them out of groups or whatever. If every person is basically good and a sociopath can be helped by mindfulness meditation in order to feel more empathy then I think that’s the better way. The book from M. Stout helped me a lot but meditation even more because it solves that “problem” of people being sociopaths.

  96. And get off Steve Hall’s ass. He is an artist. He is very, very clean. He thinks everyone is as clean as himself. He believes what he is told because he doesn’t lie and false report. He has been totally unmocked with this fucking bullshit. It hits him in the back of the head like a shock!
    I KNOW exactly what he is going through. Set up for losses with false reports.It happened to me over and over again.All this guy has done is TRUST. He has good intentions .You give him facts and he flows with REASON, no problem. He does not have hidden agendas and he means the best. He has contributed time, thought, creativity and resources. He has donated and “contributed to”. Get your fucking paws off Robin! You haven’t done anything but whine ser fac and complain like an Xwife thrown under the bus.

  97. Warren Marston

    Lynne, the Danger Formula includes “6. Formulate and adopt firm policy that will hereafter detect and prevent the same situation from continuing to occur.” In my two comments above I’ve proposed such policy changes. Please feel free to suggest additional policy changes yourself.

  98. Interesting point.
    I think everyone would have to have some criteria for judging results.
    Otherwise they might as well just roll the dice on who they go to for auditing. I would say that the person or groups attitude would be one criteria that I would use. I hate the KSW reference but if an auditor liked it and I saw him or her getting good results (what I saw as good) I might give them a try. Personally I don’t feel a need for auditing currently. I like being extroverted for now.
    I would agree that there is no perfect way to verify results. I would also say that despite how screwed up the cult is, I would wager that some people are still having some great wins. Especially at the lower levels before they get too hooked up in all the madness.
    Some ways that could judge results by:
    1. The person getting auditing is winning in life.
    2. Their life is improving in their own estimation.
    3. The auditor or group has many people interested or receiving services.
    4. Posted success stories.

  99. Eddie: I agree; however, most people won’t carve out 20 minutes of their busy busy busy lives to sit and meditate.

    A sociopath even far less likely. And just like the rest of us, mindfulness and a changed behavorial pattern(s) don’t happen overnight.

    Rather — it takes years – although incremental results happen within a few weeks. Probably not enough though to have others say — WOW — “what a changed nutcase he now is.”

    As for avoiding, labeling, or kicking out of groups — my take is to understand that the person, just like me, wants to be happy and free from suffering and just has an extremely aggressive approach (looking for love in all the wrong places/behaviors).

    Best bet I’m finding is to continue to approach relationships (two or more people in communication) by a continual look at my reactions/behavior/triggers and find new approaches to growth while continuing to expand those that are workable for me.


  100. Arnaldo,
    This research on “mirror neurons” is very current and very interesting.
    In working on an artificial intelligence computer program, I have found
    a vast resource of new techniques related to mentation.
    It is even possible now to simulate a neuron with artificial materials.
    The implications are huge.
    By the way, I ran into a very primitive idea of memory as a mirror
    in some disputed Buddhist texts thousands of years old.

    George M. White

  101. By the way, I had good auditing from Marty and I also got some good auditing from Roy Selby awhile back which was also very good. As far as I knoe Roy Selby is a big KSW guy. Like I said earlier I really never liked the KSW reference. He never put anything weird on my lines at all.

  102. OK, good to know. Do you know how to get a pre-DM copy? I know longer have any of my materials. Thanks.


  103. ‘xactly! Thank you!!

  104. Hi Nancy – Very interesting. I agree with how important this book is – actually how important the data is. People need to know that one of twenty-four people have no conscience at all – and need to understand the consequences of this – and need to know that these people live by very different rules.

    In addition to Science of Survival, your dilemma made me think of another book that might work in this situation: “How to Win Friends and Influence People” by Dale Carnegie. I know it sounds weird, but if you look at the principles in the book, they seem designed to win over people who are very self-centered, “what’s in it for them,” etc. I think the principles are valuable for people in general, but in reading your comment, I think it also holds keys for dealing with sociopaths you MUST deal with. I mean, sociopaths are the kings of self-centered-ness, and the way to approach them is to align with their self-interest – but in a way that guides them to what you want (which is, ultimately, doing good for your students and their families).

    I will not cure them of sociopathy but I think it may help to avoid the worse pitfalls of dealing with them.


  105. Ron was really clever with KSW…He knew it would keep you in line.
    You walk in…you’re vulnerable…it’s the first thing you read and BAM! Implant installed! 🙂

  106. So, my take on this is that I don’t think Scientology is doomed to repeat its mistakes. To me, the failures in Scientology are failures in policy, not in technology. The TRs are TRs, and Listing and Nulling is Listing and Nulling, and O/W is O/W. What is a problem is what you IDed: the heavy-handed enforcement that these ideas are TRUTH and must NOT be questioned, and the Gestapo-Nazi-Commie-Stasi-KGB-MK-ultra style of the SO primarily and its corruption of other staff.

    The Sea Org and Ron’s push of the Sea Org was, to me, the mechanism by which “Scientology” got killed. It is not the cause – to me the cause is Ron’s ultimate insistence on “my way or the highway.” In the ’50s he didn’t like “squirrels” but he sort of had to deal with them. In the ’60s the gloves were off and he no longer suffered them – he closed down all attempts at integration.

    To me, military organizations perpetuate a lie. The lie is that there MUST be combat and war. That people are doomed to fight like animals when tossed in a cage together – or put on a planet together. That is a lie. So, I agree that military structure feeds sociopathy since the entire structure is dedicated to conflict, strife, destruction, power, and ultimately, death.

    So why the cuss did we ever have a Sea Org? Why did Ron ever introduce such a foreign concept into Scientology, when the work was all about life and freedom, love and ARC?

    And, you are right – some of the most caring, loving, dedicated people I ever met were Scientologists (I know, right? I don’t see too many around like that nowadays in the church).

    What would Scientology look like today if instead of the mission network getting destroyed in 1982, the Sea Org and Scientology’s military BS attitudes and policies was destroyed instead? My mission in New Jersey was a small, but very beautiful thing. The mission holders were asked by LRH to be founding members of the SO and they turned him down flat. Both were Class VIII. Both great auditors. And they and the mission instilled the essence of Scientology – which is why I still give a shit about it.

    We would be looking at a different world if the mission culture beat the SO culture – and yet the technology would be essentially the same.


  107. Reblogged this on My LRH.

  108. maxim46zbitnoff

    In my own unwinding as I left the church I noticed a number of held on to carry overs. One was being hesitent about talking to ‘declared SPs’. Another was questioning the humanity with psychiatrists and gays. It was a delightful walk through those shadows and see them as fellow travellers on planet Earth. Lastly I still held on to my puritanical views toward drugs… cannabis in particular.
    Recently I’ve been reading some books on the subject. Cannabis: A History by Martin Booth. Smoke Signals by Martin Lee. Both excellent histories of the subject and how marijuana has been villified when in fact it does provide medical as well as recreational benefit for millions. If you are looking for sociopaths you might look into those who are obsessed with stamping out its use while ignoring study after study demonstrating its benefits and benign qualities–meanwhile playing the moral card of saving our youth and society from becoming degenerate, etc.
    If you take the time to study the subject I think a lot of false data will come off.
    As for Robin and Marty…. I wouldn’t be surprised if they have a history that goes beyond this life. Maybe they could smoke a peace pipe 😉

  109. Question, Marty: Wouldn’t that logic indicate that LRH was a sociopath?

    I know that may sound inflammatory, but that’s not how I mean it — I just can’t think of a better way to phrase the question, and I honestly do want to hear what you have to say. Apologies if my question is upsetting to anyone.

  110. Check Ebay periodically, I have picked up various “original”(older) editions of some books there.

  111. martyrathbun09


  112. Tom Gallagher


    Thank you for some more keen observations and pertinent conclusions.

  113. A person very close to me worked in a mission in LA in the late 70’s as an auditor. The mission was very large and thriving, yet he made $100 a week on a good week as an auditor getting in 25 hours eves and weekends. Hardly a living wage even at that time.

  114. cre8tivewmn

    If you had said that more clearly I would not have complained. I don’t understand all the personal histories, and without that the comment seemed to be an attempt to derail the conversation I appreciate the explanation.

  115. Tom Gallagher

    This book, The Sociopath Next Door, is one of the top five non-fiction books I’ve read this life-time.

    Thanks Marty for pointing this work out.

    Unfortunately, the Cult and Cult-lite Hip Hip Hooray crowds will never benefit from the author’s observations, study, care and compassion.

    I can hear it now- “She IS an SP because the Founder (God) said so. After all she IS a psychologist. A whole-track civilization destroyer… Everyone knows!”

  116. There’s a lecture, of 29 December 1951, where Hubbard discusses conscience, regarding it as an impediment. The lectures title is ‘Cause on all Dynamics’. It’s worth a listen.

    I’m not particularly fond of casually calling people sociopaths. And I don’t agree that Hubbard’s anti-social personality = sociopath.

    Hubbard SP Declares, at their inception, were a means to assert domination and control over Scientologists. The “12 characteristics,” etc. came later to make the initial system of domination and intimation respectable, by shrouding it with re-cycled old psychological theories about “sociopaths’

    Was Hubbard a sociopath?

    If not, he certainly worked hard to become one.

    Listen to the lecture cited above. To Hubbard, conscience, and guilt, were unnecessary obstacles to be overcome and discarded.

  117. That makes a lot of sense.

  118. Jean-François Genest

    Awesome !!! I am very happy for her !!!
    ♫ Na na na na, eh eh eh, GOOD BYE ! ♫

  119. Tom Gallagher

    The conception of the infallibility of LRH seems to be a dramatization of the Dark Ages and something earlier. It’s sad to see within a movement seeking enlightenment.

    That is unless one is using the nomenclature of bettering conditions as a cloak to hide behind all the while murderously carrying out the unconscionable.

  120. Gerhard Waterkamp

    Mark, exactly to the point. There was a shift from cooperation to control and domination.

  121. Warren, you seem to have an interesting business model concept. True, items 1 and 2 above can easily be present, but we have the tech to handle it, so that should not be a stop.
    So, those that are ready should start. Those that are still decompressing (it takes as long as it takes) continue, and complete your cycle.
    There is no reason for waiting for everybody to complete, before starting to move forward.Those that are still decompressing can get active later, if they wish.
    Personally, I don’t like the idea of being in wait. I would rather get something done and be effective. (I guess that I would not qualify for govt work.)
    Flourish and prosper! (nil illegiteme carborenum.)

  122. Ah, of course, LOL! (Bonking myself on the head for not thinking of this in the first place.) Thanks! 😀

  123. Mark, thank you for this. Such a well-known and reliable book, and I have not yet read it! Great assessment on needing to appeal towards the sociopath’s own self-centered nature.

    In fact, given that we cannot so easily disconnect from the sociopaths in our lives, we need a means to learn to live with them. Much as I would like to expose this superintendent for her horrific treatment of my colleagues and students, it is no short-term, simple task. I am trying to find way, but in all honesty, I am a selfish coward, afraid to speak out because I fear the life-changing repercussions to my and my husband’s livelihood.

    In the meantime, I am lucky that she apparently thinks I am a convenient and clueless pawn who improves her public image in our small town. Perhaps I have a touch of the sociopathic personality myself since I know well how to act in such a way as to portray myself as an eccentric, odd-ball, dumb, artsy-fartsy type! Oh, wait… I guess I wouldn’t be acting much… LOL! 😀

    Thank you again, Mark. I will follow your advice and read that book! 🙂


  124. Tony, there are MANY KSW “Standard Tech” delivering in the field that do not have a history of conflict with the peers clients P.C.s and students. Great people, great auditors, no smoking guns.

    ALL of the conflict out here can be traced to four single people. One isn’t even a Scientologist. All four have NO history of employment for years or none outside of the Church. They manage to generate conflict for months and years without ever holding down any kind of job, with very few P.C’s, if any. Which leads me to believe they are all on CofS O.S.A. payroll, because people usually do not live on air alone. 🙂

  125. Rainbodhi, Your efforts at understanding are admirable:)
    I can’t get real technical and answer your questions but I will let you know I was on staff at mid level (Advanced Org) for 19 years. Marty’s post made me recall that at the level I was at … sure it was rough waters now and then but looking back the ship started to rock in my universe after 5 years of nothing but exciting days and terrific auditing and studies. A bit of rough water was easily confrontable. KSW it’s self didn’t change that. I read it when it was issued & I thought someone or group must have screwed up a process and messed up one to many PCs and Ron was ‘putting his foot down’. I was ballsey and didn’t need someone to tell me that the processes were to be followed exactly and trusted my auditors to do so and insisted on my auditing go per the tech that I had studied (limited) and as to how I felt in session. That was my job as a PC per some issue I had to read prior to auditing.
    I think it’s wonderful that you are looking at these trails in the studies and speaking out.
    When I studied extensively in finance, I instinctively (after noticing the check sheets had the issues out of date order) made myself a loose file of all the issues in date order so I could more understand the EVOLUTION of the technology I was studying for FULL understanding. I really don’t see any other way one can look at it and sort out the workable from the unnecessary
    or no longer necessary.
    Looking back most of the ‘off policy’ actions I witnessed came from management level (orders, staff posted or a mission). That was prior to DM and got worse. I thought DM was going to fix it! LOL 🙂
    Sociopathy didn’t last long at my level – it stood out like a sore thumb and did not go unnoticed by my fellow staff. We didn’t speak about it but sent reports sometimes by hand routing to management so it would not be intercepted. A lot of good that did towards the latter years!
    Keep it up.

  126. I have struggled with this question myself, and I respect your inquiry. Having just finished Stuart’s book and acquiring my new “Sociopath Detection Tool Kit,” I know just enough to be truly dangerous. Of course, my tendency is to brandish my new understanding upon anyone in my life, past or present, who has really pissed me off. Including myself.

    I cannot speak with authority to your specific question about LRH – I am simply not as well studied as Marty and others in this community.

    However, I will say that Stout’s book did neglect to address IN DEPTH the inevitable questions about the possibility of temporary or prolonged lapses into sociopathy. She did write about instances where she asked the reader to consider waking up from a period of sociopathy to realize one had committed a horrible, unconscionable act, such as murdering a neighbor’s cat. In emerging from such a nightmare, the non-sociopath might be driven to extreme self-punishment. The true sociopath would emerge from such an realization without remorse, except for the fear of repercussions from others.

    My newly acquired Sociopath Detection Tool Kit drummed up quite a few Sociopaths in my life – including quite a few family members. However, there was a malfunction – must have been the free starter version of the kit. It did not account for long periods of behavior prior to or after the prolonged incidences of sociopathy that these people manifested. My militant grandmother who raised my siblings and me while my mother endured incapacitating health problems transformed into a loving, benevolent, and beloved matriarch in her late 80s until her passing at age 99. Did the sociopath gain a conscience, or was she never a true sociopath? It is hard to imagine that she would have the energy to exude such love and generosity in her last years if it were only an act to gain sympathy and admiration or some means of power. In her frequent, semi-lucid moments, would she not show her true self? In these many, deeply vulnerable moments, she was kind, loving, and playful – never malevolent.

    I can only garner personal anecdotes of LRH through those who lived with him, such as Sarge in the latter chapters of Marty’s latest book. One can cite endless incidences of Hubbard’s acts that match those of a sociopath – abuse, ostracization, dehumanization, etc., but numerous of these same observers have attested to LRH’s habit of privately making good and taking responsibility for the individual he had previously castigated. This was not always the case, of course.

    Hubbard suffered greatly from his own demons (most of his own making.) Regardless of the cause, the experience of suffering reduces one ability to act according to the beneficence of one’s conscience. Self-preservation is a violent-if-necessary instinct down to the last breath for any life form, and LRH was not free of this earthly life form and its inherent survival mechanisms.

    Again, I can make no authoritative claim regarding LRH’s possible sociopathy, but I am inclined to give the man the benefit of the doubt based on the enormity of conflicting evidence over damning evidence.

    Thank you for asking the question.


  127. Warren Marston

    Adjusting for inflation, $100 per week in 1977 would be $384 per week in 2013, or $1672 per month. That is enough for a young, single person to live on. But a properly run mission would pay more. The current going rate for lower grades auditing in the Indie field is $120 per hour. $384 divided by 25 hours is only $15 per hour, or only 12.5% of the fee paid. In professional firms such as law firms, CPA firms, etc., the guy doing the actual delivery is usually paid about 25% of the fee. That’s twice what your friend was paid. So a Grad 5 auditor today, delivering 25 hours per week at someone else’s mission, should make about $768 per week, or $3345 per month. Meanwhile, independent field auditors who can procure their own pc’s are doing much better. The current most productive Indie field auditor I know delivers over 30 hours per week, at $120 per hour for lower levels, and $200 per hour for upper levels. Assuming 20 hours per week at lower levels and 10 hours per week at upper levels, that comes to $4400 per week, or $19,140 per month. Could you live on that?

  128. Indeed it is a difficult issue to tackle. People keep coming and going from this place (Earth) and when they arrive they grow up to be sitting ducks because we don’t tech your young how to spot them.

  129. Gerhard, your point is well taken about how the dispossessed or inherently thug-minded can be elevated to a false elitism with a uniform and an undeserved status of authority to protect. Although the Nazis, and particularly the SS, often serve as the perennial whipping boy for group sociopathy, history is replete with other even more horrifying examples (e.g. Hitler may of militarized entire areas of Europe and murdered over 6 million “misfits” but Mao Zedong militarized all of China and murdered over 40 million of his own people, etc.). But keeping a wary eye out for the “less gifted” being elevated to a false elitism is only part of the picture. One must look to who is the source of the elitism, making the uniforms and undeserved authority possible, and providing funds and air-cover for their cannon fodder minion. Hitler was looked upon by the real Elitists – Swiss bankers and I.G. Farben/American industrialists – as an opportunity to make big profits off of slave labor while thinning out the herd. (Without their support, funding, promotion and influence, the German old guard would have swatted him down like the pesky malarial mosquito they considered him to be.) But THEY never donned any uniforms or faced machine guns or endured a Howitzer barrage or froze to death on the Russian Steppes. That was for their suckers. They even skated through the Nuremberg trials with a slap on the wrist. It was in fact these products of the halls of elite academia that intentionally CREATED the economic booms and depressions that led to WW I and WW II, as they’ve continued to do ever since for blood and profit.

    IQ has little correlation to sociopathy. It’s the intelligent, charismatic, well-placed, academically honored, elitist group member computing psychotic for which one needs to finely tune one’s radar. The uniformed thugs are just an obvious part of the curtain behind which he hides. ANY form is elitism itself is the tip-off. It’s the Oddity that should trigger one’s evaluation.

    I believe it was LRH’s penchant for elitism that planted the seeds of the bramble that consumed its host. I was in HCO and on very senior executive posts and that whole “Elite Corp” and bamboo brass-capped batons, etc. crap always made me wince. And the very idea of becoming part of a uniformed group of elitists always gave me the shits and had me diving for cover, being well aware of the atrocities such a culture invariably produces over the bodies of (and even with the assistance of) the most well-intentioned. Even when such a group is not backed by powerful Elitist computing psychotics, the systemic elements of its culture as outlined earlier are a gift of impunity for sociopaths to game. Accordingly, anyone establishing such a culture or possessing an avid desire to climb its ranks must have had domination and nullification as SOME part of their innate character.

    We would do well to leave that culture on the scrap heap of history and move forward with the egalitarian grass-roots culture that originally served us well, albeit with our sociopath radars finely tuned and on wide scan. Such types never rise on a level playing field.

  130. Not sure I can take the entire meaning of this out of context. There is SOME truth in it, if a person is leaning on conscience instead of reason to survive. For instance, it was customary for a long time in India for a woman to kill herself if her husband died. And often a man of wealth had several wives. So if he kicked it, they all had to go with him. “Good conscience” would not have permitted them to continue living.

  131. martyrathbun09

    The perfect complement to Sociopath Next Door for those getting into judgmental conundrums is The Psychopath Test by Jon Ronson.

  132. Thanks, Marty. I’ll give it a go. 🙂

  133. I’ve read The Sociopath Next Door last year and it is a very good book, full of insight.
    What I mostly liked was her spiritual approach to the problem.
    She also gives many interesting examples of sociopathy, real life examples, as it were.
    This book is very good for everyone who wants to understand what lies behind the behavior of people when they seem or actually do act like sociopaths.
    It’s a well written book and I recommend it to everyone, also to those who question their own conscience. If you feel regrets for things you’ve done in the past, read this book – it’s quite a Rundown and can give you many realizations.

  134. Hi Pumpkin. 🙂

    Thank you so much. I enjoy hearing about your reactions related to this, and can appreciate your “ballsiness” stemming from your initiative and confidence in getting things done right in the true sense of the meaning.

    If you want to get technical then go for it, I will try to get up to speed!

    I think it’s an advantage that I am able to view from the outside, after having studied other religions including Buddhism quite deeply for 15+ years.

    Having not been conditioned by Scientology or any of its structures, I am prepared to give it a fair shake, working from the grounds that there is a spiritual truth underlying it. At the very least, I personally recognise that there is; I believe that LRH had some strong realisations, even early on (which is why I think it took him a lot longer than seven or so years to come to his ideas about “group evolution of truth”).

    In a way, it gives me the chance to allow LRH the benefit of the doubt, as well as giving a “wide reading”, despite a lot of the narratives that have been circling, not to mention the hardline attitudes that have surfaced.

    One of the biggest contributors is the reading of KSW and its related topics.

    As I see it, there are three component parts to a literal reading of this:

    1) This is the only way for all humanity – follow it or else.
    2) You must not change anything whatsoever – remain rigid.
    3) Be severe and militant about it all – drive it in.

    These three taken together is enough for a very explosive environment whenever there is a sociopath at the helm, and it “opens the door” for untold abuses to occur.

    The fortunate thing is that, unlike most other religions, Scientology has its actual founder on record, in countless lectures, giving many varied teachings that can act to temper such a literal reading. In fact, such a circumstance practically calls for this.

    Again, regarding it being the “only path”, there are many times when LRH has said that there have been others who have perhaps broken through in the past (a small concession – but with its own implications, such as, what’s happened to those who have?)

    There are also many methods that he gave earlier which he said lead to Clear or even Theta Clear. And then there are quotes like this:

    “The old mystic says ‘Well, that’s nothing new to me.’ But, yes it is, because let me clue you, an Operating Thetan isn’t anything else, see, we just narrowed the definition down to that definition. It has no further ramifications.”

    So a lot of what he says seems to rely on particular meanings. If he says “There’s never been a Clear before” for example, he may be hinging upon his specific definition, in particular for differentiating that pathway.

    That is actually a very Buddhist thing to be doing in some ways – but at the same time you kind of have to see past it a little.

    His biggest criticism of Buddhism is that it’s “half-remembered” – not that it’s never worked at one stage. And that was in the 1950s-60s when limited Buddhist teachings were available, particularly in the West. Even today, a lot of Buddhism is cultural in nature or is relegated to simple meditations (which I think is actually fine unless you’re looking for total omniscience like in Scientology).

    As for not changing things in Scientology, well, according to KSW, he had said that everything was all being correctly applied on a consistent basis anyhow (steps 1-6). The problem was the chance for the arising of improper tech (the examples he gave was something not properly learned, as well as a weird para- thing that got passed around at the Academy). In a sense it’s deadly serious if people are going to flip or die in relation to being careless with strange experimental phenomena.

    If you’re a real OT then perhaps it’s different.

    In fact, I’ve also seen it said that “the most important thing is fun” – and, the whole state of OT is supposed to allow for a heightened enjoyment of life as well. You’re supposed to be working towards an enjoyable goal! Shouldn’t that be what’s on people’s minds?

    I think there’s a vast difference between being strong, and being heartless. You can have a caring heart and still be a tough cookie when it comes to important matters.

    But if you have completely hardened up in the wrong way, then you’re going to be really solidifiying things – conditioning everybody into your narrow ideas with a neurotically zealous fervor (or an ulterior motive).

    The problem is that it’s difficult to entirely “close the door” on bad teachers or staff – if it happens and you get stuck, you either have to 1) remove yourself, or 2) remove them.

    It’s a similar situation to, say, having a bad guru that is starting to become abusive (or at the very least engaging in unacceptable conduct). You might have devoted and committed your life to them, only to find that they’re real trouble even though you’re not “supposed” to leave. Unfortunately it’s hard to eradicate that completely; all you have is your own observation and wisdom to act and decide what you’re prepared to subject yourself and other people to.

    In Science of Survival and elsewhere, LRH gives a very clear indicator as to what really constitutes a true covertly hostile sociopath (as opposed to your garden variety member of the LGBT community with their between-life GPMs). 🙂

    When LRH talks about taking away all “civil” rights (temporarily), what he really means is *political* rights, most importantly the right to hold a position of power.

    It doesn’t make as much sense to read it any other way, because it’s impossible to temporarily take away the right to life.

    There also are numerous times when I’ve seen LRH say things like “only honest people have rights” – and in the next breath go on to talk about how a country is being governed.

    Particularly in the 1950’s, there was quite a blurring of the line between what “civil” rights and what “political” rights were – and on top of that I’ve seen him use the term “civil” in political contexts too.

    I think what he was really trying to drive home is this: do what you can to recognise a sociopath in your midst, and do not, under any circumstances, allow them to hold a position of power.

    So he did give the tools for addressing this – it’s just that it’s very very hard in many circumstances, often until it’s too late. I’ve been in this situation before on a personal level. It can also happen to you even if you’re highly intuitive – it takes a while before you notice the “flags”, and an intuitive person is (perhaps ironically) often more tolerant and allowing. You don’t realise you’ve been snagged until it’s too late.

    I think that the tools for discernment and investigation that LRH gave were all there, it’s just that these things can’t be prevented with certainty – you can only try to, and then act accordingly when they arise.

  135. It would be great to expose them with facts, so the specifics could be know by all. It might quiet down a lot of the noise.

  136. That book was today’s read. It was chilling in many ways, thought-provoking and sometimes hilariously funny. For some reason, “YEAL!” made me giggle uncontrollably. 😀


  137. Brilliant and well written. Hear, hear.

  138. SO = BIG MISSTAKE! By Ron, but who can blame him! What I understand, suppressives, were doing their VERY best to suppress him and Scientology.

  139. Most all the young people that I know in LA who make $20,000 a year live with their parents.

    $384 per week is $9.60 per hour, if 40 hours. Yet you’re suggesting an additional 25 hours of required hatting and training, which makes the hourly wage $5.90. Not very attractive for today’s young person.

    After taxes, the $384 becomes $315 per week, or $1365 per month. Given that a one bedroom apartment in LA is at least $1000, even if this person had a roommate paying half, he’d be living on $865 for utilities, food, transportation, insurance, etc. And this presupposes that his income from the mission is steady every week. Frankly, I’ve never seen that in my staff career.

    Also, I said that my friend made $100 per week in the late 70’s ON A GOOD WEEK. There were many weeks when he made $50 or nothing.

  140. “The sociopath sees being cause in only one light – others will be at effect, and that’s just the way he (or she) likes them.”

    Hence Adolf Hitler is in that light “a great Thetan”


  141. Stop worshipping bussiness and get on with life

  142. Skin Conductance Response in regular subjects differs when given fair and unfair offers, respectively. However, psychopaths have been shown to have no difference in skin conductance between fair and unfair offers.[6] This may indicate that the use of lie detectors relying on skin conductivity gives psychopaths an advantage that non-psychopaths do not have in criminal investigations.

  143. Warren Marston

    As I covered in my last comment above, $384 per week would be a payout to the auditor of only 12.5% of the fee collected. Professional firms such as CPA and law firms generally pay out 25%. That would give the auditor $768 per week gross, or $630 per week take home using your numbers, or $2740 per month. That works, even in LA. As for those staff still studying to BECOME auditors, if the Mission’s admin-to-tech ratio were where it should be — only a little above 1:1 — there would be enough money to pay them a living wage, too. And the Mission holder would be a professional auditor making a decent living delivering auditing and keeping at least 50% of the fee on his own production. At the two Missions where I worked in the 60’s and 70’s that was the case. The bottom line is that it IS possible for Missions to succeed financially. Many of them in the 70’s became very large. So financially they worked, and without becoming cults. The problems were in the Orgs, which had far too many admin staff, wasted huge amounts of money on inept “particles out” promo, and had to support top-heavy management levels (more admin staff) above them.

  144. Warren Marston

    Yes, the SO was initially necessary as a secure base of operations for Ron. It just ran amuck trying to over-manage Scientology worldwide, and became a third dynamic engram that eventually almost destroyed the subject it was created to protect.

  145. Rainbodhi, Well, well… You go ahead and try to figure it all out. I wish you well and hope some day you’ll at least ‘try out’ the TRs!
    Being on staff, I of course never read much about the backside of LRH and Scientology’s history. I was extensively trained in Treasury and Finance only and trusted my auditors to understand the tech writings. I studied Buddhism and The Veda as well as some others prior to Scientology and I knew my goals this life time when I got in. I attained some of those goals early on (1974) so of course there was nothing else to do in life but pitch in so others could enjoy them. I ASSUMMED LRH was doing well and he was well taken care of. I read Science of Survival but could never spot the tone levels since by then other false data promoted to staff like the planet will destroy it’s self if we don’t hurry, don’t bother with ‘wogs’ viewpoints, the drug companies are money only motivated etc. One cannot spot some ones tone in strong interest when he is not a scientologist – there was NO WAY he could be that high so it must be a social tone etc.
    Even when I got out for many years I compared everything I studied against what I knew by LRH. Not the best way to learn.

    Anyway, all this is not important to me now. Most important is I reach my this life time goals (I would be happy to remain in present time most the time!).
    I also want to have the subject stripped down to the essential right tech which Marty stated he will be doing!
    That can then be used and disseminated. For now with me being in better case shape – my friends and family are of course doing much better. I had a husband that died (self inflicted) 3 years ago. I just saw a friend of ours I had not spoke with in 6 months. He right away complimented me on my appearance and hugged me stating I was a ‘rare survivor’. It’s true – I could have gone downhill a long ways. I was upset that after 19 years of service, some 150,000$ donations after that the church did not even send a volunteer minister to give me at least a ‘Loss of Person’ assist.
    But no – the truth that I did learn from Ron’s teachings helped. No matter how bad it got I ‘saw’ it all unraveling and making sense some day and gradually it is.
    Person’s like you doing what you are doing and there are some others that post here & Marty – am in awe of your motivation to find the truth in the teachings.
    For me, I’m busy simply trying to learn electrician skills, diesel engines and things my survival depends on (Marty’s suggested reading).
    At least I CAN learn now!

  146. Dear Cece,

    Let me just say that I’m so sorry for your loss. My heart goes out to you.

    You most certainly are a survivor and I do understand how the most important thing is to just start living again. First and foremost is the real world, what’s right in front of us, our situation, our environment and the people who we associate with.

    It’s much more important than the cosmic stuff.

    It seems like a lot of the culture that developed over the years inside the CoS has been a perfect recipe for overwhelm, and a lot of the judgmentalism is quite frankly deplorable. In fact, I’ve even seen it in comments here occasionally and it’s saddening. It’s one thing to raise concerns about the problems that we face in our culture, and another to put others down for having different beliefs and ideas.

    Anyhow, I have been eager to sit back and enjoy doing Self Analysis (the TRs will have to wait!). And very early on, the book says:

    “Man is basically good. Pain and social aberrations turn him away from high ethics, efficiency and happiness. Get rid of the pain and you’ll be at the high level of the chart.


    So I think people have to be quite careful labeling anybody as anything, and it’s important for people to understand how they might be coming across to others when using the term “wog” in a derogatory way.

    I’m sorry that you and others were exposed to so much of that – I believe it’s totally antithetical to the purpose of raising tone.

    Thank you for the kind comments regarding my approach. While it’s true that I am working from some basic assumptions stemming from my own personal observations (that there is spiritual truth to be found, and that LRH was onto it early), I do tend to approach things from a scholarly point of view, simply because I am used to a tradition of rigorous study and debate.

    And agreed about being happy to just be in present time. 🙂

    Good luck with your goals in this lifetime!

  147. Hint, The Electropsycho meter or E-meter is a GSR meter.

    Now consider how easy a sociopath/psychopath reaches clear with no emotional response.

  148. I read the book and thought it excellent. I skimmed rapidly over the parts with to much neurobiological data, as it doesnt interest me and I dont need to understand that in order to grasp the book.
    I believe its a MUST read for ending PTS cycles for good. She explains so well what a sociopath is and how he behaves. Its a sad fact but these individuals are what they are and they can and do destroy lives.

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