Emotions IV: The Top Of The Tone Scale


Real Emotions

Emotions II: Play Acting Scientologists

Emotions III: The Tone Scale

Some Scientologists unaffiliated with the church clearly believe Ron Hubbard had everything completely taped with no need and no room for additional thought or discussion.  They certainly have a First Amendment right to assert their firmly held religious beliefs concerning the only way to proceed along the only road to total freedom; provided they do not commit civil or criminal wrongs while doing so.   By the same guaranteed freedom, I can continue to attempt to free captive minds caught in suspended cognitive dissonance.

Some have posited that the Tone Scale in Full referred to in the posts here about emotions refers to ‘tones’ which don’t qualify as emotions because they occur only with spirits who have transcended bodies, or are experienced by spirits independent of any other physiological phenomena connected with emotions as understood by the rest of the civilized world.  By the way, that assertion is made notwithstanding the fact Hubbard’s last words on the subject were those written in his Tone Scale film script.  In that work he had actors, in bodies, depict (with their bodies) all of those vaunted alleged out-of-body tones.  In either event,  these states are normally associated with the highest levels of consciousness attainment in Scientology.

As religion is religion because it deals with, among other perhaps less important matters, life and death and ultimate concerns, should not the life and death of the author of whose words may not be discussed or questioned be of some relevance?  Scientology demands as much by clothing itself with scientifically guaranteed claims, while adhering to institutional policy that requires the personal destruction of anyone who might attempt to objectively discuss or weigh those claims. By his own firm policy, which has resulted in the destruction of scores of relationships and careers of the curious over decades, Ron demands that the only proofs of Scientology be purely subjective.  That leaves the only available objective measure of workability to be the examination of the lives and conduct of those making subjective claims about the product of the subject.

I am interested in hearing from adherents their take, particularly as it relates to the application of the Tone Scale and emotion as they interpret it, to the ultimate emotional state or tone or consciousness state of Ron.  I have included a passage of a discussion I had with Steve ‘Sarge’ Pfauth – a very dear and loyal friend to L. Ron Hubbard to this day – about Ron’s ultimate states of emotion or tone or consciousness.   I have fully discussed – in an in-depth context – my views about it in my book Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior.  Let’s hear yours.

From Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior:

Sarge (Steve Pfauth):  So, anyway, he (L. Ron Hubbard) wanted to see me.  So I went into the Bluebird and sat down.  And he sat across from me and he said, “Sarge,”…boy I wish I had written it all down because I don’t want to goof it up, because this is kind of important.  Basically he said, “Sarge, I need you to do something.”  He wanted me to build him a machine that would get rid of the bts [body thetans] and kill the body.

Mark (“Marty” Rathbun): Wow.

Sarge: Yeah.  It’s kind of heavy.  It struck me real hard.  He told me a few things.  He said, “Yeah, I’ve done all I can do here and I’m just… I’m not coming back. I’m leaving and I am not coming back.”  He wanted to die, basically.  You know, his body was going to hell and all that stuff.  He was having trouble with bts.

Mark: And you say that was in late ʼ85?

Sarge: Yeah.  Fall of ʼ85.  Yeah, it was right around October.

Mark: Like three months before he died.

Sarge: Yeah, like three or four months.  So, I didn’t want to do it. But I didn’t tell him that.  And I was hoping I could talk to Pat because Annie insisted that I build the machine.  And I said, “Annie, I don’t know that much about building machines that fry people, you know what I mean?”

Mark: Well, did he describe how it should be done?

Sarge: Basically, he wanted to hook it up to the e-meter.  And he wanted enough voltage in there that it would get rid of the bts.  And I asked him about voltages and I asked him some questions…it was so long ago. And, uh, well, I gotta tell ya, it upset me a lot.

Mark: I bet.  So, the idea was that you’d be holding the cans…

Sarge:  Turn the thing on and then, in other words, he was gonna audit the bts away and the body was gonna die.

Mark:  Right. So there would be enough voltage to kill the body?

Sarge:  To do it all.  How he figured I was going to figure that out, I have no idea…

… Sarge:  Yeah.  Earlier on I cooked for LRH.  He thought I was a good cook.  And then he got sick.  Anyway, what happened was I was very upset.  So I got pissy-ass drunk and Annie found me about four o’clock in the morning with beer cans all over the green truck, out at the racetrack.  I had passed out on the seat.  And she was screaming at me, “Oh, you son of a bitch!” Oh man, she laid into me.  And I said, “All right, Annie,” and my head was hurting.  But I was upset, I was very upset.  I was crying and everything.  That was a rough time. Very rough.  Uh, so anyway, then days went by, okay?  And Annie kept saying, “He wants to know about the machine, he wants to know about the machine. What are you doing on the machine?”  Annie says, “If you don’t do anything on this Sarge, he’s going to get the local electrician to build one for him.”  Can you picture that?

Mark: Wow.  That would have been a…

Sarge: I said “No way, man.”  So I had to show some progress. So I went to an electronics place in San Luis Obispo and I bought some Tesla coils and some up-transformer things and I got all sorts of things. I basically built him a battery-operated automotive coil type thing.  This is my reasoning now, Marty.  If he gets zapped by that sucker, it’s gonna shock him but it ain’t gonna kill him.  Okay?

Mark: Okay.

Sarge: It’ll shock him but it ain’t gonna kill him.  It’ll scare him and he won’t want to do it again.

Mark: These are like 12-volt batteries?

Sarge: Yeah.  But the voltage is going to go way up on a transformer.  It’s like an automotive coil sort of thing.

Mark:  So your thought, what you understand is that he is not going to get…

Sarge: I’m not frying him!

Mark: Exactly.  I gotcha.

Sarge:  I didn’t want anything that is going to plug into the wall.  I didn’t want to fry him, but I didn’t want to tell him I didn’t want to fry him.  You know what I mean?

Mark: Yeah, I think about what you are saying right now, and I try to put myself into your position and I…

Sarge:  It was very difficult.  I didn’t want to kill the old man.  So anyway, he used the thing and he fried up my Mark VI [e-meter].  I had a Mark VI that got fried.

Mark:  He used it?

Sarge:  Yeah.

Mark:  LRH actually used it?

Sarge:  Yeah, it was my Mark VI, yeah.  And it fried the Mark VI.  I knew that was going to happen.  Fried it.

Mark:  You mean he actually tried…

Sarge:  Oh, yeah. It had burn marks on it and everything.

Mark:  He didn’t get burnt?

Sarge: He may have.  But after that there was no more mention of any machines.  And that was my intention.  That was my intention.

Mark:  He probably got a good, hard jolt.

Sarge:  I think it scared him, or something.

Mark:  And it burned the plastic?

Sarge:  It was burnt.  It was fried.  The insides were gone.  Because, you know, those things are like a computer.  You can’t put that much power into them without zapping them…I do think people need to know. I just wish at the time when I first blew that I would have written it all down.  But I carried it because I had no terminals [people to talk to].

384 responses to “Emotions IV: The Top Of The Tone Scale

  1. The mythology in the Church is that Ron dropped the body deliberately, causatively. This attempt by machine fits that scenario pretty well, and who am I to say this wouldn’t have been a better option for him at the time than dying from a series of strokes.

    As for whether certain emotions can be experienced in a body or whether they aren’t really emotions if they cannot, that discussion reminds me of the medieval debates about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.

  2. Marty, thanx for discussing LRH’s ultimate Tone state at the end of his life. One would have expected Ron to be in Serenity of Beingness, 40.0 on the Tone scale near the end of his life. But the account from Sarge clearly describes a person in the Tone range somewhere between Victim and Hopeless, or .1-.07 on the Tone scale. This question truly cuts to the heart of the discussion about the final endgame for KSW tech. I cant wait to read what everyone has to say.

  3. Some people are stupid. They do not look beyond what is fed to them because the not quite bright are cut off from the fruits of observation, according to LRH. Some people are lazy. And for that reason they will not look beyond what is handed to them. And some people are caught up in pride and are unwilling to bear the criticism of their own creation or one for which they have assumed ownership. To greater or lesser extent most folks have all three. I do. Scientology’s end product is all over the place. Good and bad. The processes are capable of providing relief, but beyond that they guarantee NOTHING. Look at Rex Fowler and so many other failures. LRH ended up down the end of a dark alley if his only solution was the one described by Sarge. LRH was not stupid or lazy. That just leave one other category. PRIDE KILLS.

  4. Marty, your conclusion is correct. If Scientology is a subjective matter, than the objective (scientific) thing to do is observe its practitioners, first of which is Hubbard himself.

    I have maintained for a while the notion that the concept of Body Thetans is nothing but the psychosis of one person enforced on others. I feel that after Hubbard was not able to reach nirvana with his exteriorization drills, he turned to BTs. Had he just stayed the course, and perhaps learned from others, he would have continued with steady progress toward a state of stable exteriorization, or as he called it Theta Clear. Instead, he chose a path of madness.

  5. martyrathbun09

    I think if you study the confluence of quantum physics discoveries of the nature of the universe with the views espoused through ancient Eastern wisdom, you would not simply write it off as ‘psychosis.’

  6. .Who is Mark / Who is sarge ? and Annie isn’t with us to tell her side either
    so where does that lead to.

  7. My grandfather at my motherside asked continiously for “a pill” or the number of his doctor (even me)because the intelligent man was sliding into the darkness of alzheimer and knew something was very wrong. He could be in a great rage sometimes. Was about 74 when he changed this realm for another.

  8. Psychosis=unduplicatable(as yet)but in the larger mix.

  9. I am peeking in again:-)

    This saga, that you have chronicled Marty, regarding Ron’s final state of mind as he considers suicide as an option to relieve his suffering, presents itself as an intellectual dilemma for Exes.

    One could easily speculate that Ron was experiencing hopelessness in relieving himself from suffering.

    The man who developed the path to freedom opted to be electrocuted as a means of relieving suffering. He desired body death. That is bottom of tone scale.

    It requires a lot of mental trickery, to justify and give credibility to, this final wish of Ron’s.

    In a sense it is his way of saying that ‘my philosophy does not ultimately work in relieving some forms of suffering.

    Regarding the difference between emotions and states of being I believe there is a big difference.

    States of pure being radiate the unalloyed nature of Spirit/Soul/Theta. These qualities are not emotions.
    My opinion is that emotions are energies brought about by a combination of consciousness and experience with form.

    In a conditioned state of being, identified with matter, the soul develops
    It’s own likes and dislikes for it’s experiences. This feels bad therefore I feel bad. This feels good therefore I feel good.

    Emotions are conditional and states of pure being are unconditional.

    Fear is a reaction to an external condition. Or it is a reaction to the mind(same thing).

    Serenity of being/bliss/joy etc are states of pure being having their source in being itself and not a reaction to outer or inner stimuli.

    Emotions are additive to the being, higher states of consciousness is the being itself.

  10. I agree that one should look at the lives of those who make claims and compare. But I find this an extremely difficult subject, as there are many factors at play, not least of which is the person themself. Why someone decides something and whether or not it was ultimately the right decision would be for them to decide. I’ve experienced too many things in my life that seemed “bad” and yet had their use, and without which I might not have had other “good” experiences. Then, to remain objective one would need to make sure one has no hidden agenda or vested interest oneself, or any own expectations of how a person should be.

    From Sarge’s description, LRH sounds to me like he was frustrated or angry, fed up and perhaps resigned (felt defeated, desperate). I am not sure if this BT concept is not simply an invitation to madness. But if it is true that we create things as we look, might we not create something to look at and audit out? Ad infinitum…?

    I believe there is reciprocity between body, mind and spirit. One cannot rise above and remain unaffected by the body while also inhabiting it. People do change as their physiology changes. One of the most visible examples of this is brain damage. LRH was physically ill, however this came to be. Perhaps somebody else knows for how long.

    I think LRH may have ultimately trapped himself with his own destructive policies. He was withdrawing, and withdrew from public sight (even if he remained in command) and from communication with the public at large more and more, until he lived in hiding. I don’t know this for sure, but I think he placed himself above his own rules. Yet how can you know you’re slipping if you don’t allow feedback? If you cut communication about yourself, and don’t grant others the right to say what they have observed about you? Cut commlines came back to haunt him with a vengeance.

  11. Marty: “…Hubbard’s last words on the subject were those written in his Tone Scale film script. In that work he had actors, in bodies, depict (with their bodies) all of those vaunted alleged out-of-body tones.”

    I don’t think LRH ever alleged or indicated in any way that these were out-of-body tones. In *Scientology 8-8008*, he said that it has been observed that any individual has two tones: One is the thetan-plus-body tone, which is the tone “established by the social environment and education”. The other is the tone of the thetan himself – “the only true tone.”

    Tone levels that are above the thetan-plus-body range are not difficult to see reflected in the body. One example is the tone of exhilaration.

  12. p.s. To be more accurate, Hubbard may have indicated that the higher tones were “out-of-body”, but that wouldn’t mean the body isn’t affected by or that it doesn’t reflect the high wave lengths of the upper tones.

  13. speechless.

  14. First a comment on Ron: Here was a man who knew the truth (fortunately for us) but did not live the truth he knew. Ron had overts and withholds up the kazoo and by his own technology we know it will hang your case – no case gain. I don’t care how many engrams you run or BTs you audit if you are a “foul ball” loaded with overts and withholds your case ain’t going nowhere. Ron demanded that tech and ethics be applied to others but somehow he was “special” – it didn’t apply to him – with the justification it would damage his reputation and therefore Scientology. You see the result in Sarge’s interview. It’s a failure to live by the tech.

    Emotion is an interesting thing. But for me I have to take a step back and just look at the body. When I do I see multiple minds. In other religions they were called “chakras”. To name two: thinking occurs in the head, emotion in the heart area. Most people agree with that. My observation is there is a “field” of minds in and around the body. Of course those minds are composed of various energies. Animals and even plants have some of the lower minds.

    Now to me it is obvious that the type of body you have determines how you are going to perceive the universe. The universe is awash in various energies – the body through its perception channels selects a subset of those and the being associated with that body now operates in that “reality”. But different body types perceive different realities. Between any two different body types some realities will overlap some won’t. That’s the degree to which they can communicate.

    In earlier human societies if you asked somebody where they were located in the body they would point to the chest or the stomach (can’t remember where I read that – some researcher of ancient cultures). You can imagine that somebody who was associated with the mind in the chest and someone who was associated with the mind in the head would have different realities.

    Now here is where I might exceed some realities. My observation is the various energies of the minds of the body are mirroring a subset of the energies of the universe. This is obvious with something like vision where the eye translates physical light wavelengths into a visual perception. But in my experience the universe itself also has, as one example, emotions. There can be a “happy day” or a “sad day”. For me I have experienced literally hundreds of emotions from the physical universe. And I can’t really say that all of them fit on Ron’s Emotional Tone Scale.

    The Tone Scale was Ron’s observation of what is common amongst humans. It seems to me there are many more emotions than are on the tone scale but they probably aren’t common.

    Ron’s final conclusion in the tape series “Exteriorization and the Phenomena of Space” was that beings were not interiorized into the physical body – they were interiorized into the electronic field of the body. In fact I would say interiorized into the minds of the body. If you exteriorize from those minds it is possible to perceive the universe directly – but it requires some creation on your part. You have to create some energy of your own and the type of energy created will determine the perception (once again my personal experience). So of course death can be a very confusing experience because the being has lost the perceptual creation and orientation of the body unless he has oriented himself with his own energy in the universe. It is interesting to note that they talk about the “blackness of space” but actually space is filled with light. There are energies flying through space all the time. And according to current theory every square kazilla-meter is filled with Higgs Bosons.

    Finally I believe it comes down to this. You can exteriorize from these minds and experience yourself and the universe but as long as you are invested in these minds you will re-interiorize. Ron called it “going up the pole”. You can reach a very high state – even the highest states – but you will come back down the pole. His conclusion and the only answer is to remove the minds. Well, engram running, releases, GPM running (yes they exist) and handling BTs does that. (And the body itself has some of these minds built in which may or may not be able to be audited out.) But I believe when you have gotten beyond the must-have, can’t have of these various minds and they become vehicles for you to handle the universe and life around you then you begin your journey as an OT.

  15. Marty,

    That is an amazing story. And an important one. It also points out yet another contrary irony of the RCS: should a regular person at any point in their life even hint at the possible desire to suicide, they will thereafter be forever marked by this by the Church and their “Bridge” progress blocked, impeded, or harried as it denotes severe case abnormality (to them). Ron doing it is a “causitive” action.

    This story would also seem to point to the possibility that, assuming the OT tech is valid, that the top of the “bridge” is in fact, not all taped off and complete. I know the Ron’s Orgs people claim to have tech that reaches beyond the top of the bridge offered by the RCS.

    From what i have read, they believe their Excaliber Tech handles the exact same area of case as New OT 7 & 8, except much more quickly and completely. Then they clear states well above this. Not saying its true, just what is claimed.

    What are your thoughts regarding further research by interested and well trained and experienced tech terminals into the strata above OT VIII? From what you have said, i get the impression you dont think this would be sacrilege. I don’t think it is, since while i respect the Tech accomplishments of Ron greatly, i dont grant him sole ownship of all knowlege regarding spiritual matters for all time.

  16. In “Obnosis and the Tone Scale” he talks about chronic tone and social tone. although I didn’t conclude from that that chronic tone is a state of an exterior being as opposed to a physiological state of emotion. What is clear from this bulletin though is that Ron obviously considered it not only possible – but entirely necessary – for Scientologists to evaluate (judge/pronounce/assess) others as though this were an objective measurable activity of value, which in hindsight I don’t think is valid at all. If one applied this test to Ron I suspect it could easily peg him at a tone level around the 1.1 band as a “chronic” tone. That doesn’t work for either, meaning the whole premise of a Tone Scale is fundamentally flawed.

    On a separate matter, I was thrilled to read in MSW, and as above – the full text of the conversation with Sarge, as having read an out of context snippet in Wright’s book it left unanswered questions – so thanks for that.

    On another separate matter – what a courageous and judicious act of selflessness your affidavit was. Thank you – and boundless admiration to Mosey for what you are both doing.

  17. Actually I attained level 40 with the outer stimuli of the trickle of the spring at Lourdes. Of course I’m not educated in scientology so called it a religious experience of oneness with everything – I was quite young and I believe the outer stimuli of the place as I experienced it was vital to the state.

  18. “Yeah, I’ve done all I can do here and I’m just… I’m not coming back. I’m leaving and I am not coming back.”

    This fits in with my own thoughts as to LRH’s last days. He appeared PTS.
    Well false PTS can be caused by personal out ethics.

    LRH promised all that it was possible to achieve clear theta clear, OT, and occasionally such results were produced, but never permanently. Having failed his lifes endeavor and all his followers could be considered a massive overt, and thus out ethics.

  19. Hubbard states in the policy letter on Repairing Past Ethics Conditions, ” An example is somebody who had decided to commit suicide at some point in his life. He was either at Enemy or Treason at the time.”
    Additionally, I find it disturbing that he would put Sarge at risk and in that situation of being the person held responsible for building the weapon he was planning to use to kill himself.
    With all this in mind, and the text of the conversation you had with Sarge, this is not a demonstration of someone up the top of the tone scale.

  20. Was LRH slipped poison? In his food perhaps?

  21. I think this is really telling about what people in the church “think” when it comes to the OT levels….It makes more sense to me now why so many young people have died before their time and why so many lost it in the process…Thank God I’m out. God bless Ron where ever he is now. 😦

  22. Martin, you wrote: “What is clear from this bulletin though is that Ron obviously considered it not only possible – but entirely necessary – for Scientologists to evaluate (judge/pronounce/assess) others as though this were an objective measurable activity of value, which in hindsight I don’t think is valid at all.”

    My experience is that people do operate, both acutely and chronically, at particular tone levels – often a social tone rather than the thetan tone. The original purpose (in *Science of Survival*) of recognizing tone levels was for the auditor to be able to evaluate which processes would work on the pc and which would be detrimental. In addition to that, understanding tones enables anyone to be able predict behavior in general in life. At some later point (can’t think of the reference off the top of my head), LRH wrote about using the tone scale to raise someone on it and/or be able to communicate better with them. These seem like valid purposes to me – although they can and have been used for purposes of manipulation.

  23. Forever Lurker

    I’ve lived far away from the big cities and centers of Scientology since the early 80’s, so I never got to hear all the rumors of the day and news blurbs. I never got to go to major events. I lived off the beaten track, smaller cities for the most part. All I knew about Hubbard’s death and the upper OT levels for so many years is what Miscavige said at the ’86 event and the “shore stories” that were promulgated at Flag later on.

    Based on what I was told, I chose to single mindedly take my leap at “ultimate freedom” as it was portrayed to me by Ron and later Miscavige. The choices I made: I never had children, never remarried after a divorce, didn’t buy a house, took lesser jobs to allow long stays at Flag, didn’t save enough for a comfortable retirement or old age, on and on. I feel like a bit of a fool now having lived my life based on a series of lies. I can’t get the 25-30 years back and I’m too old now for a “redo” of my life. I just wish I was told the blunt truth back in ’86. I could have taken it from there just fine.

    I never had a chance to peek behind the curtain, though I did ask some pretty pointed questions at Flag and was “disciplined” accordingly with short special review programs to extinguish my unwanted curiosity about Ron’s lack of a goodbye, the missing upper OT levels, and the phantom Int management.

    I’m moving on OK. It’s just a pretty damn big betrayal, IMO. I’ll never forgive Miscavige and those who promulgated the lies and who still are today. Disappointing to have planned and arranged my life around someone’s “shore stories.”

    There’s consequences to lies. Miscavige sunk his boat with his lies. LRH possibly torpedoed his body of work and the long-term good that could have come out of it with his lies. Maybe not to me totally, but certainly to the world at large.

    At least I get to keep all my case gain, though it’s not up to what I was promised when I jumped aboard in the early 70s. I’m at a “tone” right now that if anyone from the SO or COS ever comes around here again, I’m certainly gonna give them an earful they will never ever forget in several lifetimes. And that’s a guarantee!

    I read Warrior. Loved it. Looking forward to the next one. Thanks for telling the truth, Marty.

  24. gretchen dewire

    Lrh spent his whole life creating a technology to put people at cause. When the body starts going out of control, it is a very scary thing.I have been there somewhat and it can take a huge toll,especially on ones ego..If I were the kind of person I would like to be, I would have much empathy for Lrh, but …..His ego and pride has hurt and dsestroyed alot of people so I have a hard time manafesting any empathy towards him.

  25. Marty, I love ‘ya but shouldn’t this post come with a warning not to read if you don’t want to be exposed to stuff.
    Your care about not doing stuff like that was what made it safe for me to look at your site.
    I thank you for your work. Just sayin’

  26. Hubbard came up with what he called the third wall of fire in 1980, more implanters – this time outside the physical universe – meddling with humans and their genetics, but there was only theory and no practical. He handed it off to others to complete.

    Bill Robertson of Ron’s Orgs seems to have picked it up and his OT 8 and other tech developments seem to have been inspired by this, now, publicly disowned – by Scientology Inc. – writing.

    By 1980, Hubbard would have known that, contrary to what he had stated, there were not any more OT levels, up to OT 15 and beyond, etc. And there were not going to be any.

    He would have known that Scientology did not provide a bridge to Operating Thetan.

    It would have been the honorable thing to do TO LET THE SCIENTOLOGISTS KNOW ALSO.

    He didn’t. He chose not to free his slaves.

    Where is that on the “Tone Scale”?

  27. People get the government they deserve and they also get the religion they deserve. They will be free when they are released from the vanity, greed and fear that allowed them to be ensnared into Scientology in the first place. Hubbard baited them with the promise of superpower and elitism. They took the bait and he had them hooked and swindled them of their time, money, health and friends. I know because LRH had me hooked for twenty years. I don’t blame him. I blame myself. I am a better man now. It was a very hard lesson, but I thank him for it. I am glad I am not the piece of shit I was when I was a Scientologist that looked down on everyone that wasn’t a Scientologist and was willing to turn his back on his friends and family because they wouldn’t take the bait. I would even look down on other Scientologists that were poor or struggling. What a wake up call I got when I realized the bridge was a hoax. From a point of view LRH was actually here to help because people seem to learn through suffering. He certainly helped me to purge myself of some undesirable characteristic. Don’t try to free them, Marty. Let them learn their lessons. They need it. When they are ready, they will get out and they will be humble and pure.

  28. By ‘stuff’ do you mean ‘the truth’? Scientology loses its power in the presence of the truth which is why you are forbidden from hearing it. And that is the truth.

  29. ” The truth shall set you free”.
    So consider if what Sarge has said is true. If you conclude it
    is, consider what further freedom you gain?

    If you consider it not true you could give reasons and discussions
    here may lead you to another truth.

    The world is your oyster.

  30. Well that doesn’t exactly sound like Cause over Life nor OT, does it?

  31. I was one of the guys that said that LRH said that the above-4.0 tones were a thetans tones. I have read descriptions about them in some early 50s lectures –in the PDC and maybe other lecture packs. But, based on that, I see no reason why such a thetan couldn’t posses a body or two or more while very high on the tone scale. His body might not be Tone 30 but he -as a being, a thetan- could be. It was also written -as Marildi pointed out- that while the body might be on some tone level, the thetan could be on another (the usual for a PC would be the sub zero tone levels).

    Anyway, I was very annoyed to have people evaluate and criticise my tone level at all times while in SCN groups. Yes, I can freaking be ‘high’ and ‘low’, what’s wrong with it? And what tone level is it to watch and criticise me? I wound up not being able to feel some ‘negative’ tone levels, because I was afraid of being criticised –and I got stuck in other negative tone levels as result 😛 It pretty much reminds me of those sub-cultures (I think some mainstream psychology is closely associated with it) where people try to ‘feel good’ at all times. You know, ‘all that matters is to feel good’, and ‘enjoy the moment’ etc –regardless of what happens. I’m disgusted at the 1.1ness of this. As in order to ‘feel good’ at all times people are instructed to refrain from confronting anything –that’s what it’s meant by ‘feel good’. You know, like they do in the COSes with ‘avoid entheta’ so, avoid that entheta internet too…Yes, I know ‘a 4.0 cuts entheta lines’, but also a 4.0 refrains from creating entheta lines too! To create $##$ and turn the other way, so you won’t look at it, is no 4.0 at all.


  32. When I read “Memoirs” I was struck by that conversation. How could LRH be in such a lowly state of mind and so “effect” to his situation? When I came into Cof$ this time around it was about a year after he died and I read the shore story of his death, but didn’t believe it. I just didn’t think much about it at the time and quite frankly, only wanted to audit and could’ve cared less about LRH, the man. I was just interested in this great stuff he developed that I was having great wins with in helping others – a long-time goal of mine.
    Of course, over the years and with deeper involvement, it has become important to me, especially being at the state of Clear and looking at how to move forward. It also took the shedding of my “blindly follow this path exactly” and taking back my own determinism and responsibility on how to proceed with MY spiritual quest beyond Clear.
    How can it all be “right” when LRH was in such a state? There’s a huge disconnect there. “Do as I say, not as I do.”
    I could really dig into this… Having the tone scale used against people to judge and invalidate and evaluate them, make them less than and inferior has left a bitter taste in my mouth. Yes, I saw the value for an auditor, particularly for the emotions shown in session. But that’s the simple stuff, the major emotions most people experience on a daily basis and IMO waaaaay too many words were spent breaking it down to its miniscule parts…and for what purpose really? Maybe just to show that he could. Maybe because people like me needed Key to Life in order to comprehend simplistically. I don’t know.
    But, if LRH truly believed in his tone scale, would he not have evaluated himself against it, too? I think he would. So then he evaluates himself against it and finds he’s in some really low tone level and you’d think he’d request an auditor to help him with his own tech to move himself higher. But he didn’t. He didn’t even reach for his own tech to pull him out of his misery. He tried to make someone else “cause” by using electricity, not tech, so he could exit this universe. He wasn’t even cause enough to do it himself! That is a horrible state; the antithesis of what OT is “supposed to” be about.
    That’s all I have to say.

  33. As the post clearly explains ‘Mark’ is ‘Marty Rathbun’ and ‘Sarge’ is ‘Steve Pfauth’ a very dear old friend to many people who have passed through this place on their journey to recovery. If that isn’t enough information I’m sure you could find out more using google or the history options on this blog.
    As to ‘where does that lead to’ it depends what manner of rabbit hole you’re trying to create out of a simple testimony.

  34. Marty,

    Thanks for this post and the excerpt of the conversation you had with Sarge. I read the whole passage in your book.

    That said, I’ll mention that I have never understood the whole BODY THETAN concepts or conclusions.

    Maybe LRH needed a final rundown that would parallel and complement something akin to an priestly exorcism.

    He certainly appears to have been ‘possessed’.

  35. In 2002 the movie Simone starring Al Pacino was released. IMO, it was a pretty good flick. In the movie, Pacino’s character (Viktor) creates a virtual actor and lets people believe the actor is real. Toward the end of the movie there’s a great line delivered by Viktor’s daughter Lainey. She says: “Your mistake wasn’t making something fake, Dad. We’re fine with fake…as long as you don’t lie about it.”

    I think LRH, like the rest of us, made something fake and then lied about it. Lied about it to himself and pretended what was fake was real. He made the fake so real that he could feel guilty about it. And, I now think, that it was his fake guilt over something fake that took his fake self out of the fake game we view as being life.

  36. Suicide can also be looked at this way…..a PERMANET solution to a TEMPORARY problem.

  37. Marty, I’ve finished reading your book and now intend to read some parts of it again! It is so well written and actually reads like a novel written by a professional writer. It is an invaluable contribution to the history of Scientology. I plan to re-read some parts and have already re-read the early chapters about your childhood and youth and the amazing people you pulled in. I’m not much of a sports fan but even I was completely engrossed in the basketball anecdotes! What a movie this memoir of yours would make.

    I also really loved the interview with Sarge. You wrote that “during the last ten years of Hubbard’s life, Sarge was continuously stationed wherever Hubbard was staying, or was responsible for securely relaying his communications. Sarge served Ron as a ranch hand, handyman, cook and friend during his final two years in Creston.”

    Since there is so much of the negative about LRH being pointed out, I’d like to include the last part of that interview with Sarge, which shows another side of the man. It also relates to something LRH said on the subject of the tone scale – which is that a high-toned person will be volatile, meaning “liable to change rapidly”:
    M [Marty]: “Can you sum up for me the man L. Ron Hubbard that you knew?”

    S [Sarge]: “LRH was a genius. He had a big temper. And he would lose his temper. And when LRh lost his temper, the windows would rattle. You could hear it a house away. Because he didn’t hold things in. He let his anger out. He did not sit on his anger. But then, 30 minutes later he’s walking around the messengers saying “Hello” to people. He let the anger out. A lot of people misinterpret that anger. I was on his lines. I was around him. I’ve seen him yell at people a lot. Because he lost his temper. And he would yell and scream. He never touched anybody. He would vent at them. He was a very powerful man, okay? Not just a big body. He had a lot of intention. And when that was unleashed, everybody would kind of shrivel up, because of the power of the man. But he was also a very nice man. The reason I am saying this is because in all the times I screwed up he never once yelled at me. All the times I was on his lines, and I fucked up, I NEVER got that. He was always kind to me, always nice to me… There were times when he got upset that I was a little afraid and everybody would get afraid because he was a powerful man, right. But he was also one of the nicest people I have ever met. I had so much respect for that guy. And I was there right at the end at Creston.”

  38. One of conclusion is that Scientology doesn’t work nearly as well as some of us had thought.

    It’s a limited and flawed and, perhaps, booby trapped subject.

    Remember that Hubbard also had a nervous breakdown where he stayed in bed moping after his failures in Southern Africa in 1966. See Virginia Downsborough’s account in Bare-Faced Messiah.

    He had a similar breakdown in 1951, but rebounded.

    There’s a history of Hubbard melodramatically going on about his own demise and indulging in self-pity.

  39. S.T.: “I have maintained for a while the notion that the concept of Body Thetans is nothing but the psychosis of one person enforced on others.”

    I was dealing with bt’s before I knew what they were – before I’d heard the term. As a Clear I just assumed they were my own charge, so I’d blow them by inspection.

    When I read descriptions by David St. Lawrence that matched what I’d been experiencing, I took a new viewpoint: that these bt’s probably shouldn’t be destroyed but should be helped.

    Since then I’ve learned how I can be at cause over that part of my case and can now quite easily destimulate a bt by blowing individual, restimulated postulates as opposed to the whole being.

    I think Ron’s big mistake was taking that oppterm viewpoint on bt’s, trying to rid one’s space of them all. That idea is very likely an impossibility until every last one in the universe is handled. Until then, you get rid of some, some more will attach because you’re now more uptone and other beings gravitate towards that tone level.

    Then, if you think you’ve handled every one of them but still feel occasional charge, i.e. feel less uptone, that can feel like an inval of your state until you recognize where the charge is coming from.

    On the other hand, if you can recognize where the charge comes from and can destimulate or blow that charge, then life gets a lot easier and you can spend time on the things that create a feeling of joy.

  40. Moreover, LRH was auditing away BTs well before he was into exteriorization drills with Mary Sue. In the very early days he called them “fleas”

  41. 2ndxmr, this is really worth repeating:

    “Since then I’ve learned how I can be at cause over that part of my case and can now quite easily destimulate a bt by blowing individual, restimulated postulates as opposed to the whole being.”

    That completely aligns with “postulate off equals erasure” – the key datum in NED auditing. I mean – what could be more significant than a being’s own postulates?! That is what holds an engram in place – as well as any other part of case, from what I understand of the tech. And a “consideration” is defined as “a continuing postulate,” so if it’s true that considerations are senior to mechanics – then, that’s the whole ball game.

    And another great point you made was this: “…trying to rid one’s space of them all [all bt’s]. That idea is very likely an impossibility until every last one in the universe is handled. Until then, you get rid of some, some more will attach because you’re now more uptone and other beings gravitate towards that tone level.”

    It’s no wonder so many OT’s feel that their gains were not lasting and that they become disillusioned.

  42. He also called them entities, and they are all over the early lectures.

  43. I agree. In fact, about a month or so after I did my tone scale drills on the PTS/SP course, and watching the Tone Scale film about 25 times, I remember driving up La Brea Ave one hot day and seeing a bum, laying on the sidewalk near a bus stop bench, on his left side. He was extending his right arm out and was making a waving motion with it -slowly back and forth. I was instantly aware that I had seen this exact thing being portrayed in the Tone Scale film as the tone of “Being Nothing” -20.0. I kid you not – the bum on the street looked exactly like the film actor. Same arm action, same position, same blank look on his face, same location (laying near an object in its shadow). He was certainly in a body.

    That day was never erased from my memory. I had seen some pretty hard evidence that LRH had certainly not just thrown the tone scale together from some guess. He knew what he was writing and damned if I had just seen some wild evidence to back it up.

    I wish I could locate an on-line copy of that film. I would love to see it again.

  44. The following is my personal opinion and speculation, so I may be totally wrong, but here’s what I’m thinking:

    Imagine yourself on another planet. You got there somehow and you see that these fellows on that planet are pretty messed up, so you decide to try to help them out of that mess.

    You study them, figure out how to communicate what you know to make it believable as “research”, to create a codified “road out”, a manual to achieve a better state of affairs, etc. – basically you have a purpose to help.

    You then get attacked by the governments and mighty institutions of the very planet you are trying to help.

    You decide to fight back – it’s just a game, fuck’em, you’re here to help these billions of people, you’re not gonna let these corrupt organizations prevent you from helping a whole race. From that perspective, breaking some laws (didn’t the attackers break some laws themselves?) and creating a PR myth around yourself to help you achieve your (constructive) goals don’t seem like unforgivable sins – from retrospect, more like tactical errors.

    And of course, you get upset, you make mistakes, you break the local rules, you get offended, then pissed, maybe even revengeful and eventually, sour – you try to protect your game, fight back, lash out, etc. Some say you are their saviour, some say you are a criminal, and some say you are the Devil himself. And as time goes by, you realize you are fighting a losing battle – it doesn’t seem to be possible to create the kind of effect on this planet in a lifetime you postulated. Then your body gets older and starts to fall apart, the government is trying to put you in jail, and you say “fuck it” and just give up your game and quit, hoping the work you have done so far wasn’t for nothing, but unwilling to keep fighting any more for the people who, as a whole didn’t understand you (only a few did) and tried to kill you or silence you for the better part of your life because you kept stepping on some sensitive toes with a lot of power and selfish agendas attached.

    Isn’t that more like LRH’s real story here? He was just like us – a being consisting of a thetan a mind and a body, just maybe more aware of who he was, creating a big game (which proved bigger than he could handle) trying to help out and getting lower and lower on that Tone Scale that he described, to the point where he was like “this really didn’t go down as planned… fuck that”.

    If you put it in that context and assuming that LRH really believed what he preached (lectured and wrote about), then (at least for me) a lot of things fall into place.

    Ethics and the dynamics: If you believe that it is an “acceptable cure” that kills one person to save thousands, then sacrificing a few people will feel “acceptable” for you. From an external viewpoint, looking at the human race as a whole, this is a defendable viewpoint – leads to lots to argue about, but it IS defendable.

    SP declares and disconnection: I think he was trying to protect his game when it was being heavily attacked – and unfortunately created a monster that came back to bite him in the ass, big time. If you really think about it, the problem with SP declares and disconnection is not really the principle (I think we can all agree that we all have the right to disconnect from an evil person who wants us to fail and actively works towards that), but the problems are that (A) most of those declared are not really SPs at all, which has to do with the next point, that (B) LRH made it easy to declare anyone without actually requiring the person to be a suppressive even by his own definition, and (C) as a further consequence of (B), disconnection is enforced, so it is not actually in the interest of the person but simply an organizational defense mechanism ran amok. If it wasn’t for giving a blank check to church managers to declare anyone “suppressive” for a violation of a single point of a heavy-handed “justice code” and forced disconnections, I would say the technical part of PTS/SP tech and disconnection is sensible. The MAJOR errors above made it to what it is today. It is like the prison (“correction”) system – you probably don’t disagree with the law that says that if someone murders another person, then he’ll go to jail for a long time because he is antisocial, but you would probably disagree if the same penalty could be applied automatically to anyone for “failure to disconnect from a person known to openly criticize the government”. That would be like North Korea, and that’s how Scientology works today.

    Making Scientology into a religion: I think this was a strategy decision – making it into a religion excluded it from the realm of science, but then again, that “science” has already “proven” that the soul didn’t exist, and it must have been a choice between (A) claiming it was a science, making an “uphill battle” a major understatment of what it would have had to face in gaining acceptance as such or (B) declaring it a religion, which created different kinds of problems, but at least was guaranteed by the Constitution to be able to be practiced freely – and tax exemption made it easier to support. I don’t know what I would have done in that situation, but it seems to me that this was probably the lesser evil. Having to maintain the double standard of teaching what he – I am sure – believed was an exact science but having to dress it up as a religion must have been a major pain in the ass along the way, with huge problems and complexities.

    So to me, LRH’s life looks like the rise and fall of a person trying to fight the good fight, with good intentions, but gradually going down the scale and unfortunately, failing to carry out the whole mission at the end.

    I still have a tremendous amount of respect for LRH, and will continue using the pieces from his teachings that I find workable, but I don’t “believe in them” or follow everything he said. There is tremendous value in his writings and lectures for those who can understand them and think for themselves. I respect the man, I respect his work, I feel kinda sorry that he couldn’t finish his work/game as he intended, but he helped me in many ways, and it is undeniable that he contributed a lot to mankind and I am very, very grateful for that.

  45. Thank you Sid! I want nothing but the truth – the truth will set you free!

  46. T.:”So then he evaluates himself against it and finds he’s in some really low tone level and you’d think he’d request an auditor to help him with his own tech to move himself higher. But he didn’t.”

    Such is the power of the ser fac dramatization. It’s pretty obvious what he didn’t touch.

  47. I’m sorry that LRH was in the state he was in as his body was dieing.

    That is a rough thing to experience for anyone, not usually a walk in the park …..as everyone reading this blog, as well as everyone who is not reading this blog will eventually find out.

    I never worshiped Ron as many did although I do like, greatly admire, and respect him for the things he accomplished as well as the things he attempted.

    As far as “objective discussions”, “objective measurements”, and “objective” reality in general go, I say that there is no such thing. There are only agreements about things between “subjective” viewpoints. What is real is what is real for you. Many people wish to put forth their observations and opinions as being “objective” but this is really just an attempt to enforce their reality upon others. To whit, all “objective” realities must first be understood, observed, or agreed-upon subjectively at some point to be called “objective”. Of course one can also not-is their own subjective realities, but as I understand it that is what Scientology seeks to remedy.
    “Scientists” assert the term “science” to cloak their (usually but not always) agreed-upon realities in the mantle of Authority. This subtle act says to everyone else, “Agree or you are an ignorant fool.” Only recently have physicists begun to acknowledge that the observer has influence on what is observed in the physical universe.

    I hope that L. Ron Hubbard sorts out what he was trying to sort out. I think that he probably has a better than average chance of doing so because he has demonstrated a lot of ability in many areas. I definitely wish him success.

    As far as emotions go, my reality is that one can experience, “feel”, or generate them whether one has a body or does not have one.
    To my experience, I do not “have a soul”.
    My personal perception is that I AM a soul, as are others.

  48. All bodies age, no exeption

  49. I don’t know Sarge’s qualifications about electricity which may be high enough but killing BTs with electricity – If LRH was serious wouldn’t he request a bunch of electric engineers and highly tech trained auditors to team up and do some research and testing about it all? So, I get LRH wasn’t serious, he just wanted to die.
    Another question I had in my mind … if he was really forwarding the research while in hiding, why he didn’t requested to be assisted in that research by at least a couple of highly trained tech terminals to discuss and test discoveries with?

  50. Good comment

  51. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    This is what the COS sells on scientologycourses.org:
    “The whole subject of how to accurately judge our fellows is something that man has wanted to be able to do for a long time. In Scientology we have a chart which shows a way one can precisely evaluate human behavior and predict what a person will do.”

    After 35 years of trying to use that tech and obnosis, and going from one mess to the next one, I stopped to evaluate and invalidate people or label them with the 100ds of labels that exist in Scientology. I’m humble now, have great respect for any person and just interact with them by using common sense. It’s quite easy and simple.

    People have a “free will” and aren’t robots that are determined by the “mechanics of life ” as described in Scientology.

    Lrh was against the materialistic sciences and nattering about them, but in the same time developped a system which explains life and the universe as being handled by mechanical processes and principles and energies. Somewhere he states that also the analytical mind is a stimulus-response mechanism.

    Propably 90% of the modern Scientists accept the concept of “free will” or think there must be somewhere a creator (God, static) of things. So what’s the difference ?

    There is no difference to materialistic Sciences, except that materialistic Sciences really can judge and predict 100% the behaviour and actions of what they are handling, while Scientology and Dianetics as so called Sciences can’t. If Dianetics and Scientology are real Sciences as told by LRH (FOT), then it would have gone the way as any other Science or discovery does and it would , after 60 years, be common knowledge and we would have a cleared planet !

    At the end of his life LRH didn’t seek a spiritual solution for his problems , but a materialistic one. How sad and shameful.

    Nevertheless, I hope some bright minds will once work over his discoveries and make a real science out of it. History tells this has always been the case .


  52. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    and by the way:

    I never was able to find out the chronical tone levels of my wife and kids as they always showed so many different levels and are full of surprises, react differently as last time….., come up with original thouhgts, ideas and creations…….

  53. Frank, I liked your story. I would like to add that what Marty does, in his books and blogs, is meant to be, and some will wake up because of it and some will never hear or read any of it. Its part of Marty’s personal journey as much as it is part of the journey for those who come in contact with it. When the student is ready, the teacher will come. These writings and exposes could be the lessons you referred to. In my opinion. Glad your doing well.

  54. “If Dianetics and Scientology are real Sciences as told by LRH (FOT), then it would have gone the way as any other Science or discovery does and it would , after 60 years,”

    Hoarding all the knowledge will make you less knowledgable in the end.

  55. In the interest of truth, I would say this: Don’t get upset at Marty for attempting to shatter your illusions. Anyone here who is intelligent enough to recognize the universal truths present in Quantum Physics/Transcendent Spiritual Enlightenment should also be intelligent enough to recognize that something like the concept of BT’s could have been nothing more than a writer’s amphetamine fueled delusion of “Bug’s crawling all over me” and “Voices in my head” on LRH’s part.

    Not that it doesn’t serve as an effective metaphor for the “Demons” we must all overcome in our journey to enlightenment… I’m just sayin’ – grain of salt, wheat from chaff, forest for trees, etc. These things have to be put in perspective if one is to escape the indoctrination and willfully divergent intersubjectivity inherent in any “Belief” system.

    Think about it, of course it follows that one who “takes things literally” is greatly at risk of being subject to “Literary Devices”.

    “To free the human mind from words and explanations is one of the main aims of Eastern mysticism. Both Buddhists and Taoists speak of a “network of words,” or a “net of concepts,” thus extending the idea of the interconnected web to the realm of the intellect. As long as we try to explain things, we are bound by karma: trapped in our conceptual network. To transcend words and explanations means to break the bonds of karma and attain liberation.” – Fritjof Capra, The Tao of Physics: An Explration of the Parrallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism.

  56. Gayle aka TroubleShooter


    Despite the fact that OT material is all over the net and media, IMHO it would have been an act of kindness and respect for those who read your blog to at least have given them the option of not reading this should they choose not to hear information that you and I know they wouldn’t read about if they had a choice. That’s not cool.

    Also, in addition to any points you might be making or implying or encouraging I’ll bite and point out the obvious, LRH was under some suppression no? He had the very dickhead he was empowering being the very thing that the tech should be able to ferret out and address with some FPRD or XDn or OT level data. He was being betrayed by those in the trojan horse.

    If he was unable to spot and eliminate that element then how “OT” could he have been?? Well, there was quite a trail of overts, withholds, losses and suppression effecting him on all flows if you consider all the info that’s available to see today. Ron was definitely causing and opposing some great levels of energy on all flows, all directions.

    Is the dropping of the atom bomb on Hiroshima evidence that the US is superior to Japan? Is the fact that a tornado or tsunami can destroy a lifetime of man’s creation in seconds a reason to conclude that man is a victim of MEST? Is the fact that because of my own experience in the church I can conclude that there is no such thing as loyalty, friendship, trust or honesty, that everything is conditional and these qualities or characteristics are nothing more than a concept one imbues in to life by choice in order to feel affinity with it and communicate and create with it so as to feel alive and have meaning result in me going to a mountain top to meditate my way out of the observations of the tech moving people up to higher levels of awareness and love for others with the very tech that’s under scrutiny here?

    Please excuse what might be inferior or unenlightened analogies. I don’t want to come off here either as someone who is judging you or trying to oppose you because as much as I will continue to imbue life with these qualities and characteristics in order to feel alive myself I embrace your viewpoints you bait us with. If I wasn’t interested in your viewpoint I wouldn’t be here reading your blog or commenting. Your food for thought is an interesting one that might be what is needed in order to maintain a balance between sides as tipping in to one side wholly or the other side wholly which may be the big mistake as opposed to maintaining an equilibrium between concepts.

    I have observed it to be true for me that the bigger the sphere of life that a person bites off to chew brings with it the bigger opposition to that create. So the condition that Ron was in at the end of his life was for me the result of his own create that included ultimate betrayal, loss of love and big effects toward trying to rise above the knowing or unknowing create of that very opposing force he sought to overcome.

    The Bridge wasn’t a solution but a route one can take toward ultimate truth which of course isn’t contained in the tech – the 8th dynamic continues to be a subject one has to resolve exists or doesn’t and IS or isn’t for themselves.

    I could tell you that the information that you posted here was a predictable outcome as a result of what it is that I’ve learned of the Scientology tech itself because this universe exists based on the laws of the physical universe and it would be true. However it’s also true for me that were LRH given a “do-over” I believe he would have handled things much differently so as not to have ended his life with an enemy running the show.

    Perhaps there’s more to learn from Ron’s life and death that validates his life’s work as opposed to finding the holes in the technology’s dam.

    Peace to you Marty. I enjoy enjoy the long game and my money is on you.


  57. martyrathbun09

    You are wise beyond your years.

  58. martyrathbun09

    Thanks Gayle. As far as my conditioning my views and data (i.e. providing warnings or whatever it is you are recommending), it seems to me that my operating basis is about as consistent as it can be with your description of ‘Clear’, ‘OT’, and the purpose of the Bridge that you so eloquently articulated right here on this blog only a couple days ago. Peace to you and yours too.

  59. Thank you Frank. You said it man!

  60. Likewise you, my brother.

  61. Gayle aka TroubleShooter

    Point taken. I recall the first time I was made wrong for not applying the “VIEWPOINT” policy. It pissed me off that someone was trying to make me be someone else than who I was because my communication was mine to give as I chose to give it and fuck anyone trying to make me be something else because of WHO my comm was being given to. So many years, courses, auditing levels and experience later I still find it liberating to say what I believe is true. If we don’t then we’re not being free are we. Here’s to freedom my friend.

  62. It comes from Psychosomatic treatment or selftheraphy, Wich wants you to visualize the problem, sometimes it goes: visualize the problem sitting in that chair, and so on and so forth.

  63. Hello Roger, I’m following your comments for a while now. And I know you from the german speaking area. I read lots of your comments and all go in the same direction to proof that LRH is wrong and Scientology doesn’t work. You are continously talking about that Scientologists, clears and OTs don’t have any abilities like LRH described. Continously looking for proof, but you pray to god, that you will never find one, so your viewpoint on Scientology doesn’t have to change. This article Must be like an orgasm for you. But what I can read out of your comments is just One thing, the unability to see things and to apply technology. In fact you don’t know anything about scientology. Because you failed in this matter you wanne justify it in this way. But I can guaranty you that if you would study something correctly, no matter if Scientology or something else, you don’t have to inval other stuff. Me and others, too helped this tech a lot, especially since we are out of the church. And if LRH found a solution or not you don’t know, because you never studied!

  64. Marty,
    Thanks for your books, specially “Memoirs”, and for your recently updated declaration.

    You provided the final crucial data I needed to connect all the dots and let go.

    LRH ended up in the state that he ended up in, because of his own doing.
    It should be common sense that if you approach the Theta Universe, as your personal trampoline to power, control and vendetta, you will end up in a sorry state. And like any of his predecessors in the Occult, who indulged themselves in that road, LRH’s end was inevitably casted.

    LRH should have followed his own research: The Theta Universe just IS, it DOES NOT belong to anybody, It CANNOT be copyrighted, labeled, cornered, and corralled for personal, egotistical or otherwise goals.

    IMHO, Scientology is a carefully constructed Theta Trap. Beyond the powerful techniques, that LRH DID put together to obtain prompt Releases, everything else is set up to trap you back into the cage.

    It is LRH’s cage that you are very craftily sucked into this time, with an assortment of booby traps viciously laid all around his auditing technology.

    Not the least of them, instituting himself as Source, and arrogantly proclaiming himself as the ONLY one to produce workable technology for the mind.

    I think it was on the “Secrets of MEST Universe” tapes, that LRH stated the main thing he found wrong with Christianity, was the fact that all of it sources were careful concealed.

    Well now, then, it just happens not be to only LRH’s opinion, but the consensus of the top Scholars in the field, after over 200 years of working to break the back of one the most destructive Cults that ever hit the human race.

    To build a road to “Total Freedom”, by covertly and overtly enforcing blind obedience to LRH and his writings as the sole and miraculously conceived technology to the Mind, and to the express exclusion of every other viewpoint in the Universe is absolutely insane.

    So Scientologists, in or out, are simply experiencing the fallout of a failed attempt to corner the Theta Universe, one more time.

    And as every time before, the results are inevitable: delusion, unreality, and entrapment.


  65. L. Ron Hubbard – Routine 1, 2, and 3

  66. martyrathbun09

    Thanks. Interesting on that Viewpoint PL. It imparted probably the most valuable lesson I ever learned about communication and writing.

  67. In simple terms, it’s an application of the ARC triangle – matching the R and the A will enable the C to get through.

  68. And regarding what tone level he was in before his death was “death” itself.

  69. Gayle aka TroubleShooter

    Oh yeah it was valuable. My first experience was unfortunately one that was so altering the importance that it was nothing but a tool being used to try to make me STFU. I got value from learning that the receipt point of a comm needed to be cared for so the message was received but I didn’t need the added “but don’t say what’s on your mind at all because no matter how you say it your viewpoint is not important or wanted” thing that accompanied the experience at the time.

  70. Wow, well said. And very pan-determined.

  71. Reading Sarge’s story I have only pity for him. He was asked to kill his spiritual leader by the big OT himself. LRH didn’t mind asking his caretaker to take his life….wow! that’s really thinking about others isn’t it. Even to the bitter end he destroying another life with guilt, sorrow and possibly a life sentence in jail.
    I’m just a simple southern gal with a simple take on life and when the “discoverer” of the tech and author of so many self help books and lectures ends his last YEARS not days..hiding, avoiding the law and lawsuits, his teeth rotted in his head, fighting BT’s …wouldn’t you have the think that the tech isn’t the answer for the betterment of life and you’ve been conned..Blaming others for his demise in any way would be your engrained beliefs from the stand point of your cult brainwashing…

  72. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    ” Nomen est omen”
    Money is the purpose of the hardcore Scientologist and your comment is the result of 100% application of Scientology tech and does in fact demonstarate the truth of what I wrote.
    And if above comment is the result of your studies, I just feel pity for you.
    Your comment tells me that you don’t know me.
    Tell me yor real name !

  73. Very interesting description of the bum “Being nothing”. You got me thinking about DM. When I was in the SO, I knew that his tone ranged from overt hostility to covert hostility, and I “knew” (without direct data) that he was a dictator (my actual word and concept of him, in my mind). That was, and still is, his body-plus-thetan tone.

    However, now that I know more about his ultra micro-management and “the hole” and putting himself in the limelight at events, etc. – I’d say his true tone, his thetan tone, probably ranges in the minus scale from Blame=Punishing other bodies (the beatings), to Controlling bodies (micro-managing) to Owning bodies (“the hole”) to Approval from bodies (his excessive preening, and desire for the limelight). I’m picturing all those tones in the film and they so fit him! It’s like LRH said in that bulletin “Obnosis and the Tone Scale” – all you have to do is look at what the body is doing to see any of the tones on the full scale.

  74. marildi,
    In my view, this is a key point in LRH’s ontology. LRH would have naturally derived the concept of “dual tones” from his structure of reality. It makes perfect sense to have one for the thetan and one for thetan plus body.
    I think he once described theta as a vibration and harmonics as part of the process. In the end, too much electricity will get you everytime.
    George M. White

  75. Hiram, I agree with aotc – good comment.

    I never thought too much about the Christian idea that “Pride cometh before a fall” or that pride is one of the Seven Deadly Sins. I looked it up in Wikipedia and learned that a “deadly” or “cardinal” sin is one which all other lesser sins derive from. I see now that Pride pretty much equates with the concepts of ego – and ser fac. All of these are ways to express the same observed truth.

  76. In a world of no absolutes, how many walls of fire might there be? As many as you wish to postulate.

    As early as 1950, Hubbard was humiliated by the failure of a “clear” to perform as claimed in a public demo. Read Dianetics MSMH and ask, did any of those claims come true in any scientific way — and in a way that might not have any other plausible explanation?

    In the 1970s, when I first got involved, “clear” was going to be full cause over one’s own / mental MEST. And OT VIII was going to be full cause over actual MEST. Well, I’ve seen clears and OTs. The claims are not true.

    What happens psychologically for true believers is that they must then rationalize why it is not true and create dodges to take themselves off the hook. I remember clears and OTs saying it would be unethical to demonstrate their supposed “powers” because one has to find the truth of it for him/herself. Or saying, “Yes, I can exteriorize at will but I am still working on my ability to perceive from exterior.” Very convenient.

    And not very good for the greatest number. After all, one group of clears strolling across the surface of say Lake Tahoe just once for one long sunny afternoon witnessed by thousands of people would ensure that Scientology registrations would boom and never quit rising. Or surely he could have foreseen the Internet and created it first, shown us how to travel faster than light, proven that Mars and Venus were inhabited after all, and so on. Or show how auditing someone for 500 hours raised their IQ from 100 to 600? Wouldn’t _showing any of that_ be the greatest good for the greatest number?

    If it were only true.

    So, yes. As B.Wbbb says, by the 1980s Hubbard would have to have seen that just as clear did not lead to the DMSMH claims, OT had problems too. He had put himself in a Catch-22 situation. One of those damned if you do, damned if you don’t things. (And those situations in the extreme can and do cause mental breakdown.)

    His Catch-22 was that he either abandoned his construct as self-created delusion or that he continue to work within the same belief system to uncover the unsolved problems. He may have indeed posited more walls of fire. More implants. Intractable BTs.

    And, with a butt-ful of vistaril to calm his growing anxieties and internal cognitive dissonance, with a mirror that showed an increasingly haggard and decaying old man — not a shining and transparent Homo Novis much less a god-thetan, how could he not be depressed? His teeth rotting and foul in his head, his breath stinking, he had to realize at some level, no matter how suppressed consciously, that the course of his life was the course of all men. He would stand helpless against the ravages of time on his mind and body.

    That, I think, is what led to the early Kevorkian shock machine, his electronic R2-45. His final story would then be that he discovered that the BTs drawn to a Big Thetan, and maybe other thetans, had to be blown away by a certain voltage (and wouldn’t that have been amperage more than volts anyway?). Then, to save us all, LRH would have made the ultimate sacrifice, not on a cross like the Jesus he despised and derided, but on the cans, going out in a flame of sparks in a cloud of blown-away BTs, the ultimate Scientologist, looking a little perhaps like Slim Pickens riding the nuclear bomb down in Dr. Strangelove.

    Then, Mini-Me Miscavige would have been able to legitimately say that Ron did leave at cause, doing a whole new level of research, dressing up the final action so it would not look like the solution wogs had been using forever in desperate situations: suicide.

    So where was he on the Tone Scale? Dominant tone was -8.0, Hiding. With resonant, secondary tones ranging from 0.1 (Victim) to -1.3 (Regret). He was a train wreck in every sense in his last days.

    If we can’t face the obvious about Hubbard, with all his flaws intermingled with genuine insights and quirky charismatic greatness, in what way can we claim to be the seekers of truth that led us to Scientology, or other faiths or scientific endeavors, to begin with?

  77. Thanks, Marildi, for the context. Sarge did us all a service by telling his story and humanizing Ron.

  78. AWF, your opening statement grabbed me and got me thinking: “Here was a man who knew the truth (fortunately for us) but did not live the truth he knew.” This is not as obvious as it seems. Yes, he didn'[t live it, okay, but did he know the whole Truth? He might have. But he sure didn’t want us to find out under the penalty of being excommunicated. He omitted, obscured or perverted some vital parts of it, damaging the Tech and completely blocking the road out.

    For example, the Suppression Tech that fixates the cause and the solution on the SP, i.e. somebody outside the PTS person which is a lie and an invalidation of the PTS person. Why does a person feel suppressed, victimized, enturbulated and does weird things and gets sick? Because of somebody else? His Mama’s perhaps, that no-good bitch, or some bully or Barak Obama? Sure it all ended cup in disconnections. What does that do to the Dynamics?

    Another example is the cookie-cutter C/S called “The Bridge” where a person who signed up to handle a ruin per the Dissem Formula, never really handles his ruin and gets most likely blown off the Bridge by being audited on low or no interest items while his ruin remains ignored or beaten down temporarily (keyed out).

    Then the abhorrent LRHs treatment of Body Thetans. Even at his last days he wanted to destroy them. He hated these other thetans. What about the Dynamics? What about ARC? When was hate ever a solution? What happened to a nice ack and flow of admiration to empower and free them to stay or leave?

    Then again, LRH never explained HOW postulates work. Never explained about God or let us get in touch with it.

    These are some examples of highly suppressive acts. Of course, he developed a lot of good and useful concepts and procedures too. But taken overall, I see why he ended up the way he did. Huge, monumental, colossal overts.

  79. Ok, since the cat is out of the bag on BT’s and such, let me say this:

    1. I got tremendous gain from running OT III.
    2. We live in bodies that are made up of over 10 TRILLION cells – each one a little piece of life. At least, from a body point of view, we truly are composite entities.
    3. It can be true that consciousness is the product of our brain, and that life is purely physical, and that there is no spiritual non-material side to man. When the brain stops functioning, we cease to be. I do not hold to that belief, but it is the standard belief of materialists.
    4. If we hold to the idea that we are spiritual in nature, and NOT material, then there are different ways to view our interaction with the body:
    a. We can view it is ONE body, ONE being, which is a single point-of-view spirit or being.
    b. We can view it as Body and Being fused – the being fused with all other beings in the universe (“we are all one”) or, ala Alan Watts, we are each a viewpoint of God who returns to God when we are done with the body (sort of a pool of godliness from which we temporarily spring). Or, we and our bodies are made of a sort of God-stuff and we are linked – hence the desire of some sects to prevent their organs to be taken for transplant when they die, and to not allow blood transfusions, since they will then be mixed with some other person’s life source.
    c. We can view it is the body is our liaison point with the universe – and there can be more than one being in the body.
    5. Regardless of whether “we” are a complex material process of firing neurons, or whether we are non-physical in nature – we DO exist, and we ARE conscious. We are able to perceive this physical universe. The ONLY thing that can perceive anything and think about it, is LIFE. Life is clearly different from any other physical process (if it is indeed a physical process). But, one truth we can all agree on is: we exist. We exist, in some form or another, and we are conscious.

    From the physical side, one thing to think about is that we swap out all our cells every seven or so years. Now, I have to think bone and teeth stay with us, but our soft tissue – and our brains – swap out completely every X years. AND YET – we are the same person, with virtually the same point of view. These trillions of cells all align and make a SINGLE viewpoint. And when they are swapped out via some biochemical tag-team process, they still have the SAME SINGLE viewpoint. I mean, wow – that seems odd, no?

    If we posit that there is something called a “spiritual being” which is unique in viewpoint, what is it? It is not material – not made up of atoms or quarks. It is outside the physical universe. And yet, we do have people around who are conscious, and are unique in their points of view. People DO exist. If they are not physical, what are they?

    OT III changed my life, because it made me and allowed me to confront this. Who am I? Who are “they?” What is the essence of “me” versus what are the add-ons like – I am American. I lived in California. I currently speak English. I have a very tall body. Etc.

    BTW, I never viewed BTs as “fleas” and parasites. I have no idea where that idea came from – it was not in the materials I ever read. My point of view was that I was freeing people to move on to new lives. To me, OT III was a liberation process.

    Now, I will say this. The EP that I attested to for OT III was “no more BTs and clusters.” I ran them out. There were/are no more. So, imagine my surprise when I find out that OT IV talks about BTs and clusters? From that point on, I was done with the bridge. I was done, since there was nothing left to run that Scientology was providing.

    Now, a final note. Was all this a delusion? WHO THE FUCK CARES? I am a better man for it.

    However, it is NOT insane to believe in spiritual beings. It is NOT insane to consider that if ONE being can populate a body, MORE THAN ONE can. Popular culture (and history) is full of this. To me, it is INSANE to think that consciousness, the works of Shakespeare, of Beethoven, the actions of Mother Theresa, Buddha, Jesus, and all the fine, beautiful works of Man are ALL the product of a materialist, cause-effect chain of inevitability that started with the Big Bang. It is INSANE to think WE are just cosmic accidents.

    Ok, so this is off topic. Back on topic – I believe Ron touched the raw stuff of life, and being flawed, he missed. I believe he came close. But in the end, he missed the big question, which is – how do you exit this life gracefully, shedding the context of this lifetime’s “identity” while retaining your core self? The body is a HUGE burden on us. Ron never cracked that one (and neither have I, as yet).

    Mark Patterson

  80. Globetrotter, I really enjoyed reading your what if scenario about Ron. It reminds me of many such scenarios I’ve had over the years about this ‘bigger than life’ identity (at least that’s how I perceived him), L. Ron Hubbard.

    Of course, it was obvious that there was lots more to the story so I was always wondering about who this thetan being the Ron Hubbard identity really was. Basic questions like, where did he come from? Why was he here? and other fueled my scenarios. And here and there within his writings, within his lectures, there would be a snippet that would prompt yet another what if scenario or expand one that was already ongoing. One such snippet came from a friend of mine who had done the FEBC. This particular snippet had her wondering too. She told me there was a lectured she listened to on that crs and at one point in this particular lecture Ron said something to the effect…earth is the biggest liability formula I’ve ever had to do. Wow! Hearing that really set the ole what if gears a whizzing!

    Then, of course, there was ‘Q’ from Star Trek Next Generation series…was Ron a ‘Q’? From wikipedia: “Q is said to be omnipotent, and is continually evasive regarding his motivations. His home, the Q Continuum, is accessible to the Q and their guests, and the true nature of it is said to be beyond the comprehension of “lesser beings” such as humans so it is shown to humans only in ways they can understand.” Hmmm….this what if scenario certainly held promise until the Ron story took a dive south. If Ron were something like a ‘Q’ type of being then it doesn’t add up that a story like the one Sarge tells Marty would ever occur. Unless….(the what ifs are lining up). LOL

    From the time I encountered LRH via DMSMH up until only less than a year ago, I perceived Ron as being special. And, because I had eyes to see and ears to hear his message, that made me special too. I think being perceived as being ‘special’ had a tremendously powerful appeal for Ron. An appeal (a temptation) that he eventually succumbed to. Being ‘special’ is a consideration of being more than. It can be useful as long as the person that is being ‘special’ does not believe it is true. As believing it is believing a lie. There are repercussions to believing in lies.

    In Reality we exist as One Spirit. In UNreality we seem to exist as billions and billions of unique sovereign spirits eternally separated from each other. Ron had a chance to choose unity but instead chose to be a special individual and chose, as well, to influence others to move away from unity too. That choice is never a winning choice.

    At times I feel like at this stage of our awakening we are engaged in dissecting the radio with the expectation of finding a little announcer inside. We are constantly breaking things down into smaller and smaller parts (constantly separating everything out into pieces) in an attempt to discover cause. We hold one piece after another up to discuss its properties and in the process beak it down into still even smaller pieces. It appears that we might have possibly become fixated in analyzing effects. But…perhaps that’s a necessary stage we need to transition through as we move up a little higher.

  81. gretchen dewire

    Scott, that was beautiful and succintly put. Thank you

  82. Wow! I said ‘come with a warning’ so others can make their own choice. I did not say do not speak.

  83. Hi Margaret and Windhorse! Thanks for that! Many cultures have a sense of their ancestors traveling with them. Many people have the feeling someone is “watching over them”, or that they have “guardian angels”.
    I have always since earliest childhood felt ancestors and others were a part of my “tribe” (some people call it a space). On Solo Nots when contacting some of these, they had floating TA’s.

    I guess some people have issues with this once it is pointed out to them. But it is written in the bible. And the new bible.

    I more or less take it as compliment when someone wants to occupy the same space with me. There are different reasons for this, that has to do with purposes. It has never bothered me and I don’t even see it as a handicap really. Some of these are just part of a closet of former identities I seem to haul around. There is more to being a thetan than just being there, there is doing and having. Changing clothes and changing identity.

    The first thing I did after reading the OT3 materials, was just fly my ruds to handle any charge on it being given to me as a “present time problem” I needed to “handle”.

    As far as these originations by Hubbard on his attitudes about it, he could have been handled like any other P.C. originating a present time problem. I think he had bigger burdens. There are people that want to be led and fed. At first it can be fun leading the way. But it soon becomes a debt that can never be paid in full. Whatever you give, people seem to need so much more. The more winds people have being led, the more dependent they become.

    Hubbard did make huge efforts to get people to become self determined and to think for themselves. Some were able to, some were not. Some still can not think for themselves and will only think with or repeat Hubbard’s words. He didn’t invent the needy. Those were always here.

  84. Laughter! Not sure we are lost with out Annie’s memoirs.

  85. This isn’t a day care center.

  86. martyrathbun09

    Yeah, I guess I understood it against the backdrop of a philosophical wisdom I had already learned and adopted. It was something along the lines of not judging another unless you have walked in his shoes, or can fully conceptualize having done so.

  87. martyrathbun09

    You noted, ‘LRH ended up in the state that he ended up in, because of his own doing.’ Yes. What is so difficult to process, and at the same time is so poignant, is that the man devised methodologies by which one could pretty consistently be lead to the realization that all of one’s suffering – as well as one’s joy – emanates from within.

  88. “The human mind, like God, contains ideas. Some of these ideas—sensory images, qualitative “feels” (like pains and pleasures), perceptual data—are imprecise qualitative phenomena, being the expression in thought of states of the body as it is affected by the bodies surrounding it. Such ideas do not convey adequate and true knowledge of the world, but only a relative, partial and subjective picture of how things presently seem to be to the perceiver. There is no systematic order to these perceptions, nor any critical oversight by reason. “As long as the human Mind perceives things from the common order of nature, it does not have an adequate, but only a confused and mutilated knowledge of itself, of its own Body, and of external bodies” (IIp29c). Under such circumstances, we are simply determined in our ideas by our fortuitous and haphazard encounter with things in the external world. This superficial acquaintance will never provide us with knowledge of the essences of those things. In fact, it is an invariable source of falsehood and error. This “knowledge from random experience” is also the origin of great delusions, since we—thinking ourselves free—are, in our ignorance, unaware of just how we are determined by causes.

    Adequate ideas, on the other hand, are formed in a rational and orderly manner, and are necessarily true and revelatory of the essences of things. “Reason”, the second kind of knowledge (after “random experience”), is the apprehension of the essence of a thing through a discursive, inferential procedure. “A true idea means nothing other than knowing a thing perfectly, or in the best way”(IIp43s). It involves grasping a thing’s causal connections not just to other objects but, more importantly, to the attributes of God and the infinite modes (the laws of nature) that follow immediately from them. The adequate idea of a thing clearly and distinctly situates its object in all of its causal nexuses and shows not just that it is, but how and why it is. The person who truly knows a thing sees the reasons why the thing was determined to be and could not have been otherwise. “It is of the nature of Reason to regard things as necessary, not as contingent” (IIp44). The belief that some thing is accidental or spontaneous can be based only on an inadequate grasp of the thing’s causal explanation, on a partial and “mutilated” familiarity with it. To perceive by way of adequate ideas is to perceive the necessity inherent in Nature.”

    Baruch Spinoza


  89. martyrathbun09

    Incidentally Gayle, I truly believe that if there is any future for ‘independent Scientology’ it will only be possible by the intelligence and tolerance demonstrated by the likes of you.

  90. Gayle aka TroubleShooter

    I’m doing my best my friend.

  91. Gayle aka TroubleShooter

    and as a C/S I want you to get it too.

  92. martyrathbun09

    Let me assure you, from my perspective you are doing an admirable job.

  93. Hi George,

    The way I got it is this: A thetan is without matter, energy, space or time, but a thetan is “in a very, very small amount of mass” (Phoenix Lectures) – so I figure that’s why a thetan has a wavelength, called a tone level. Then we have the combination of a thetan with a body (more mass) and a mind (composed of mental mass) which, as a specific mass combination, has its own tone level. I believe LRH also stated somewhere that the body itself has a tone level – makes sense as it is basically another mass unit. Btw, science has apparently proven that emotions do have wavelengths. Thus, IN the frame of reference of the physical universe and science, it seems that LRH got it right about tones.

    I have to admit, I’m still working on why it is that duality is considered not a good thing, even though it seems to me to be the nature of the universe. I’ll keep you posted. 😉

    But that was a funny line you wrote: “In the end, too much electricity will get you every time.” 😀

  94. Exactly! LIke Sarge said, Ron was big and powerful – but he was human! I am reminded of the old saying, “The bigger they are, the harder they fall.”

  95. He said that it’s what a thetan considered itself to be (an energy production unit or worse a particle located in space and time), not that it basically was that. He also said that Beingness in MEST was expressed as just space.

  96. I should better rephrase to make it more understandable. He said that there is a gradient of considerations about beingness. On the top of the scale he was (considered that he was) being space and on the bottom he was (considered that he was) being matter. Somewhere in between he considered he is a body. But all that, while he’s inside MEST. All the Tone Scale is about being in MEST. Tone 40.0 is considered the exit point.

  97. I lived at Virginia’s house for a year in 77, she shared lots of stories, when she was with him,

  98. He took on the greatest intellectual and spiritual questions.
    Didn’t complete his studies despite 30+ years of effort.
    Gave us a direction. That is a wonderful legacy. Its down to us now.
    Few are equipped to take on this task. Kudos to those who try 🙂

  99. Well said, Spyros. 😛 🙂

  100. “Scientology loses it’s power in the presence of truth” ?

    I seriously doubt you know anything about Scientology. I doubt you have ever audited anyone. I doubt you have much if any training. I doubt you have traveled any distance up the bridge. Yet, here you are summing it all up in one sentence as a complete fraud evident against the back drop of “truth”. As some kind of expert. It is this kind of fraud I find most ordinary.

  101. Fascinating. The whole article is. Apparently I am in agreement with Spinoza in that I believe we truly can know God.

  102. burnedbutnotbitter

    Oh I so have a different viewpoint, to hell with the BT’s. This was a Shakepearean tragedy. I’ve seen that death certificate on the net, with the 11 shots of Vistaril given LRH to shut him up at the end. A famous aging ill 74 year old genius who has left behind a body of work respected by thousands around the world should have been cared for by his loving younger wife and found a new purpose. Sure, Pat and Annie were subs, but he had no renewed PURPOSE, which could have been cleaning up the out-points in his church. Read about David Mayo and Jon Atack on Tony Ortega’s blog and guess what, there was an Independent Scn movement in the 80’s wanting to do that! LRH was out-ethics, he was hiding, he was PTS, he had DM whispering into his paranoid ear that everyone had betrayed him, and as someone said already here–TOO PROUD.

    Do you think I am saying behind every great man stands a woman? Yep and more, behind every great man usually stands a woman and family who prop him up when he’s down. And point out reasons to live on. Marty, you are actually a good example of this….

    Look at what Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter are doing now–found new purposes, speaking out, and saying they have supportive wives is an understatement. They’re not hiding, they’re not dying, they’re not trying to commit suicide.

  103. Yes – I think he found that out in Rhodesia initially, and Planet Earth a few years later. Some people keep running to the flame every time you pull them out.

  104. “From the time I encountered LRH via DMSMH up until only less than a year ago, I perceived Ron as being special. And, because I had eyes to see and ears to hear his message, that made me special too. I think being perceived as being ‘special’ had a tremendously powerful appeal for Ron. An appeal (a temptation) that he eventually succumbed to. Being ‘special’ is a consideration of being more than. It can be useful as long as the person that is being ‘special’ does not believe it is true. As believing it is believing a lie. There are repercussions to believing in lies.”

    Am a never-in trying to understand…
    I would suspect what you describe here would be very intoxicating. Could it explain some of the dynamic that is so mysterious to us ‘outsiders’…
    why do people Stay In So Long?

  105. My take is it was a very sad commentary on LRH’s emotional tone as well as mental state when he asked Sarge to “get rid of the bts [body thetans] and kill the body”!

    It was hard to imagine when I first read of this account in your book, Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior, and difficult to read again in this post.

    It is a telling sign that LRH asked someone else to do him in; what a cry for help!

    My estimation is he was in an extremely low tone and entirely unable to locate and handle the suppression he was under. My question is, was he drugged? As he allowed himself to be manhandled and maneuvered by DM to disconnect from his wife, as well as to cut most if not all of his comm from THE organization he built. And, he was not that old to be so sick. Gawd he was OT….could he not have willed his body to die?

    A sad ending for a man who’s life’s work was to help us all be more able.

  106. Was he lonely, do you think?

    in re my above comment: his specialness…
    very clearly he was ‘not an ordinary bear’…
    I have known a few of those in my time…
    and most self-destructed…
    musicians, mostly…
    and in retrospect I realize they were lonely men.

    (and all were men…the extra-ordinary women I have known are another story…and it would appear from evidence to date that you are married to one!)

  107. Perhaps I have misunderstood you, but reading your thoughtful statement immediately raised this question:

    Why do you believe that spirit/consciousness cannot exist/interact in the physical universe?

  108. Speaking as a ‘never-in’, your comment is so puzzling…
    it does not make sense.

    “…don’t want to be exposed to stuff.”
    What stuff? and why not read something?
    I guess, What are you afraid of?

    (I do not mean any disrespect; just can not comprehend…)

  109. Sad? Perhaps MIdge, that’s one viewpoint. Another is that right up to the end he was looking for a causative way out of the traps he found himself in. He wasn’t asking for Sarge to kill him, (as much as it was understandably easy for Sarge to conceive that) but only to build a machine he himself devised to escape the trappings he found himself in.

    I’ve seen OT’s get killed or kill themselves, well, the aftermath, and it was never pretty. One the opposite end I’ve seen Type III’s that never recovered and kill themselves, in spite of OSA’s ivory tower hands off instructs… always ugly.

    I prefer to believe LRH knew mostly what was going on right up to the end, even that he could or chose to no longer deal with it.

    To me these stories and so many others afforded by those there have filled so many voids and made a once God a real person, albeit one hell of an OT. It goes to the destim and real life reconstruct we have to confront and deal with.

    I say Ron was quite playful even in the end… I mean Christ, who the hell would ask someone to build a device that would shock them into the next realm!

    LRH was no Saint. We can focus on the sometimes very personal idiosyncrasies of living, thriving, deterioration and dieing, or we can focus on the memories and in this case, the legacy of the tech we have to work with.

  110. one of those who see

    Mark, As usual a wonderful, helpful comment.

  111. It is this contrast that casts doubt on the workability of the tech. Perhaps a little simplistic, but were I to witness the head of Mercedes driving a BMW (or walking, claiming he does not need a car), I would wonder if he had so little faith in his own products. Or if Steve Jobs had used Windows PCs.

    Life itself, and other people’s work (James Allen, Eckart Tolle are just two examples), teach such a realisation, too. How is it that LRH did not appear to emanate happiness from within, in the end? Or is that too much to expect? Is it possible to die happy?

    The movie I AM points out that life is cooperative, not competitive. I have found this to be true. We help each other, and as we do, we progress that much faster. What if BTs are simply disowned parts of oneself? What would a cooperative approach to BTs/spirit guides/angels/ancestors have resulted in? One could still maintain individuality if desired.

  112. Pts condition? I mean from Sarge’s description Ron was having ups and downs.

  113. hansje brinker

    Thank you Marty, important posting!

    It makes me remember what Pat Broeker told at the event after Ron died “OT-level when the thetan discard his body”.
    At 6:35 in this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJE7ZcWD6vA.

    I this just a story or does this writting exists?

  114. 17th century dutch philisopher, Facsinating man, His masterpieces called Ethica (latin) or Ethics

    “I believe in Spinoza’s God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings.”

    Albert Einstein

    Big Wiki page with lots of interesting stuff


    ” His magnum opus, the posthumous Ethics, in which he opposed Descartes’s mind–body dualism, has earned him recognition as one of Western philosophy’s most important thinkers. In the Ethics, “Spinoza wrote the last indisputable Latin masterpiece, and one in which the refined conceptions of medieval philosophy are finally turned against themselves and destroyed entirely.”[5] Philosopher Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel said of all contemporary philosophers, “You are either a Spinozist or not a philosopher at all.”[6]’

  115. Il absolutely agree with you.

  116. Hi marildi,
    “I have to admit, I’m still working on why it is that duality is considered not a good thing. ”

    When I said “duality”, I did not mean to imply good or bad.
    More to the point, the different tone levels are more complex because of “duality.” Thetan and thetan plus body.
    I believe you are correct about the small of amount of mass at the end. That mass would be vibrating.

    George M. White

  117. NOTHING is EVER what it appears to be nor is it EVER about what I think it’s about. This statement, in a world of perception, is, for me, an axiom. And it continues to demonstrate its reliability as such. In fact, only a couple of weeks ago when my wife and I went to visit my mother and step father in Abilene, TX the reliability of this axiom was once again underscored.

    My mother has Alzheimer’s disease. There are seven stages to this disease and she is borderline between six and seven. When I last saw her, three and a half years ago, she was in stage four (moderate cognitive decline). My step dad has taken on the role of primary care giver. My mother is a woman that always looked ten to fifteen years younger than she was and maintained the enthusiasm and passion for life commonly demonstrated by a twenty year old but with the maturity of a person much older. That in mind, seeing my mother in the condition she was in was emotionally overwhelming for me. I was swamped with feelings of deep sadness and loss. However, throughout this experience there was a very clear and strong thought that was assuring me that this was not what it appeared to be.

    Over the next few days of my visit my mother she enveloped me in love and gratitude. Also, through a phrase, a word, sometimes a complete sentence uttered here and there, managed to let my wife and myself know that she was completely fine and that she was in Spirit. My wife and I were the only ones that understood what she was communicating. It was obvious, that to the others in the environment, her words were being heard as nonsensical gibberish. But she very clearly conveyed to my wife and I that mest was nothing, that we were One, her husband didn’t understand this, and that, at least one of the purposes of her condition, was to help wake him up. This was her gift to him. My step dad is quite fixed in a Southern Baptist perspective. A very rigid perspective that portrays a level of certainty that only a firmly closed mind is capable of. But, because of what he is experiencing in caring for my mother, I see that adamant certainty on a rapid decline. He’s actually beginning to question his beliefs.

    I share this story with you because this morning I awoke thinking about LRH and my mom and the parallels of their lives. The cognitive dissonance I experienced between my perception of LRH in the beginning and throughout his life versus my perception of LRH at the end, and the cognitive dissonance I’ve experienced between my perception of my mom throughout her life and what I’ve been perceiving near her end, is pretty much the same for me. So that got me to wondering. Perhaps, at his end, LRH was delivering one more lesson (giving us one more gift) to all his devoted followers. Perhaps he was giving us undeniable evidence that his feet were made of clay, that both he and his work had serious flaws. Perhaps, too, he intended that his followers would cease being followers and discussions like the one happening here on Marty’s blog would be common place.

  118. How have you liked being “humanized”? Yes we are all being humans. What is a human? Someone with frailties and weak spots? Is that what makes us human? For real? Glad to know Hubbard was in misery before he passed away? Like the rest of us motley crew? Making him “human” brings some relief! No wonder we do not see Gods walk among st us. What an inconvenience! Sarge did you a service by leaving a pathetic image of Hubbard? Earth is not the stuff of Gods and miracles and magic. These ideas are not “human” and so do not belong here. And that is why we have what we have. Own it.

  119. When I read the story of LRH’s last few months of life in your book, I concluded that he was certainly starved of oxygen (a lifetime smoker) and often in a dreamlike state (a state you get into, say at about 20,000 ft without supplemental oxygen) and he yelled like hell (he had this temper his whole life) and so he got some drugs, not so much for his benefit, but to quiet him down.

    I don’t recall LRH saying he could just lay down and die like the old indian
    tried to do in the movie saying: “it’s a good day to die” only to be woken up by the rain. Ha.

    I don’t think it’s that important how one dies…but I did find it useful to know he worked on BTs to the end of his life. It sort of answers the question of what was the last auditing level he was working on. So stories about DM having more OT levels can be put to rest.

  120. Aurora, I think so. In reading the excerpt from my comment I see that I neglected to mention that being ‘special’ also had powerful appeal to me and that I also succumbed to the temptation. As a scientologist I considered myself ‘more than’ anyone who wasn’t one. I was ‘special’. I had the inside track so to speak. And, for a long time I really did believe it so. And like I mentioned, believing in lies has repercussions.

  121. We have taken great people and turned them into mud. (Hubbard) and we have taken the virus’ and turned them into Kings (Miscavige). This is the stuff of humans.

  122. When the body is sick it kicks your ass. He had bad arteriosclerosis and was dying. I think knowing you are dying and choosing to end it on your own determinism is a valid and sane choice. I know from experience that being ill makes it hard to be a “thetan” becuse the body sucks in all your attention. It’s like a PTP with very heavily laid in wiring and direct connections to your spirit. When you die you are then free from that.
    If you guys are saying he should have been at 40.0 and his body should not have died, well I don’t know, I’ll leave that for you to ponder. From my understanding of things, if you have a body you are sort of stuck operating generally within the body+thetan range which ends around 4.0 If I ever get above 4.0 I tend to be exterior and it’s very temporary. It’s not stable, I believe because of the body. You have to tune back in to the wavelengths that work with the body to operate yours and with other bodies and life in the physical universe. Thats why guys sit in a temple in silent meditation- they are trying to get away from this fact. If you are using a body you will probably not be much higher than 4.0 as a chronic tone. That high range of the body tone scale is the “sweet spot” for operating in the physical universe IMO. If you look at the guys who are really powerful and get things done on earth they tend to operate within the 2.0 – 4.0 range. Dipping down towards 2.0 with failures or before cup of coffee in the morning etc.
    I’m doing Taekwondo right now and I’m getting a lot of benefit from it, physically and mentally. I have read some about the founder of Taekwondo, but I don’t know really anything about his personal life or failings. I certainly wouldnt judge the worthiness of the subject based on something he said when he was dying.

  123. Marty, my own personal experience with LRH was that he could be volatile as hell on the Tone Scale. In other words, when were shooting films and something was taking too long or being messed he would blow sky high and things and people in the immediate environment began to swirl madly. Then, when whatever it was was fixed, LRH instantly reverted to what I observed to be a kind of default serene cheerfulness. He always seemed interested in what was going on and was cheerful about it and when something bugged or went wrong–BOOM!
    One day Wayne Marple, then CO WHQ, called off our first exterior shoot on these practice Get Your Feet Wet videos. His reason was that it was stormy. And it was. When LRH found out he hit the roof and I remember him storming onto the exterior setting. Wind was blowing wildly, palm fronds were coming down from the date palms but nothing was as stormy as the sight of LRH, his opera cape billowing out behind him barreling onto the set. Man, was that memorable. Everyone got mustered up and we began shooting and he was right back to his cheerful self getting stuff done. Later that day we took a break for lunch during which time it rained and after the shower passed, I walked outdoors and was for the first time in my life a full double rainbow.
    I will relate one more anecdote: one afternoon while shooting TR 4, I was not needed on the set so was up in Qual and feeling bored, blew post to wander down and see what was happening in the studio. I walked in and found a spot to stand opposite to where LRH happened to be sitting and looked around the goings on. LRH and I happened to catch each others’ eyes and he fixed me with a look that I had never seen before or since. As I confronted him, he REALLY confronted me. I became very aware of his space and universe and I could perceive absolutely nothing going on. It was like looking at a static, is the only way to describe it. Just pure potential. Again, very memorable experience for me.
    Oh, and one other while I am at it: one time all hell was breaking loose in the studio on a film and a new recruit came into the studio, I guess on an orientation tour. The guy had just arrived to the base and he stepped inside the studio right in the middle of a huge amount of randomity. LRH was directing things and hustling everybody to get it done now, now, NOW! when he noticed Lorenzo standing inside the door with a totally stunned look. LRH walked over to him, shook his hand and cheerfully said, “Hi. Welcome. Don’t worry, it’s always like this here.” and then turned away and went back to what he was doing. Somehow he noticed the new guy come in and broke away to say Hi. I was standing off to the side doing something else but happened to notice the exchange. Not necessarily on the topic you asked about but it was interesting to me so I recount it here.

  124. I’m not sure I see that excerpt of Sarge as being “another side” of LRH. Sarge says that he considered LRH to be nice since he never yelled and screamed at him. That’s not exactly a glowing endorsement, especially since Hubbard later asked Sarge to build a suicide machine which, if it had been successful, would have placed Sarge at the fury of either the justice system, or the Church of Scientology, or most likely both.

  125. There is a sanskrit chant which states” I am not these emotions, I am not these thoughts, I am not this body, eternal Spirit I am!

    From whence do the dream images and dream reactions come from in a dream, in sleep.

    They usher out of and are composed by the conscious being manifesting them.

    All the structures of perceptions from thought to emotions and solidness of forms are birthed from the dreamer whose essence is apart from it’s creations but is intimately connected to them through the souls ability to manifest creation.

    Where do dreams go upon awakening? They resolve back into the formless Self who desires to experience forms and identities for fun.

  126. Grasshopper

    Thank you for your post.

    At the end of your post you ask this question: “how do you exit this life gracefully, shedding the context of this lifetime’s “identity” while retaining your core self?”…

    You may find the book “The Tibetan Book of Living And Dying”, by Sogyal Rinpoche, of some interest in this regard. It is available as a PDF on line. (This is not The Tibetan Book of The Dead.)

    I have not actually finished the book myself, but in what I have read so far there are delineated both philosophies and technologies potentially capable of assisting with “the big question” that you ask.


  127. Forever Lurker

    At anytime in his final years, Ron could have picked up the phone and called in a Class 12 to look over his folders and give him some review sessions, which would have been the right thing to do according to his writings. Mayo used to do this quite often when he was active and in. He was Ron’s first choice for a review session. There would have been no problem in blindfolding a Class 12 (silly as that sounds) and driving him/her up to Ron’s secure location. He had Dr. Denk living with him already. With his enormous personal wealth at the time, literally anything was possible.

    Ron somehow lost faith in his own tech obviously. In the end he turned to medical drugs and psychiatric means (electro–shock) to handle his case. Quite in contrast to all the OT methodologies and theories he wrote about in the early 50’s, which I’ve pretty much read and studied all of ’em.

    I’ve personally stopped following in Hubbard’s footsteps, watching how his story ended. That is, after doing a considerable amount on the Bridge, including the old and new OT sections plus auditor training.

    For many years now, I’ve been trying to live a life of compassion and follow The Virtues as best as I could. And that for me was the missing element in Ron’s tech. Seemed to certainly fit more to who I knew I was and how I moved through life. The basic personality that walked into an org decades earlier, in other words.

    A list of The Virtues can be found on this website and many others: http://www.virtuesforlife.com/what-are-virtues/the-virtues-list/

    My new philosophy is now: “If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.”

    Killing the Buddha means killing or wiping out one’s fantasy image of the guru, while keeping any and all the knowledge or wisdom you learned; and any and all “case gain” or life experience you got along the way. Nothing is owed. Any truth, or wisdom, should always be a free commodity.

  128. This is certainly a disturbing interview. I am sad that Hubbard reduced himself to such a state.

    The “Moving on up a Little Higher” blog has been concerned with separating the Good from the Bad in Scientology.

    My observation is that Scientology fails in the presence of “out-ethics”.

    Training succeeds when Affinity Reality and Communication result in Understanding. Training fails when understanding is replaced by imposed beliefs.

    Auditing succeeds to the extent that the Auditor and Case Supervisor are trusted. Auditing cannot occur when trust is damaged.

    When did Hubbard go out-ethics? Were there small overts that escalated to larger? Were there mistakes followed by recoveries, followed by worse mistakes and ever shallower recoveries?

    From my point of view, it was the use of drugs. All of Hubbard’s excesses are inexplicable, unless one considers the effect of drugs. Under the influence of drugs, any number of strange hallucinations can be believed with conviction.

    How strange that the abhorrence of drugs is a basic belief of Scientology.

  129. Hi George.

    Ah, okay. By “duality” you were speaking of the dual – or double – tone levels. I should have got that. 🙂

    That line from the Phoenix Lectures about the thetan being in a very, very small amount of mass always interested me. I finally figured out how I think it would fit into the Scientology construct. In the book *Understanding the E-meter*, there’s a description of mental pictures and charge and then it goes on to say the following:

    “This forms the time track. Some parts of it, then, are ‘permanently’ in a state of creation and the majority of it becoming created when the thetan’s attention is directed to them.

    “The ‘permanently created’ portions are those times of overwhelm and indecision which almost entirely submerged the thetan’ s own will and awareness.” (UEM)

    From the above, it seems to me that the very small amount of mass a thetan is IN would be the “permanently created” pictures and their charge. And as you said too, that mass would be vibrating.

    I would extrapolate from all this that if all “defilements” are removed, as in auditing or the like, a thetan could go back to being pure theta with the renewed choice of making “the decision to be” and assuming a viewpoint.


    Perhaps I am naive, or just a simple fool, but after III, IV, 8 intensives of V, and after the first year of VII, I realized that BT’s were a construct of my own. I took this awareness to the D of P, who sent it on to the CS. He wrote back I had more to do. So after 9 more years of VII, I again originated that these “entities” and their “influences” were nothing but my creation – nothing but “air”. I again was told I had “more to do” That was in 2004, so I stopped auditing and began to believe I was being scammed.
    By 2008, I knew I had been scammed. But folks that were out who I trusted, spoke about the wonders of auditing away from the church so in 2010 I went to Marty, and then again in 2011.. The second time, he helped me get back on the level. I went home and audited perhaps 5 sessions, and again I realized that the BT’s were just a way of avoiding responsibility. They existed only because I created them. Since then there isn’t one to be found.
    In Dianetics, Hubbard writes about the fish that refuse to swim though shadows in the water that they believe are a barrier, a barrier that doesn’t exist in reality. Then he created a technology to show that the barrier does indeed exist and a series of steps to remove it. It seems at the end, he was “hoisted by his own petard”. What I have written is true for me.

  131. I know enough about Scientology, in fact compared to the average person I would be considered an expert.

    However, you are correct that I have had no training, no auditing, I am (thankfully) nowhere on the Bridge.

    I don’t agree that this bars me from comment on the many things I have read regarding Scientology (both for and against), in the last 4 years – including probably every single post Marty has ever made on this blog, and many of the comments. I have read many hundreds of comments from you Oracle, on this and other blogs.

    You call me a fraud. I could insult you by pointing out that I have been clever enough to avoid becoming entangled in a mind-control cult (and I hope to keep it that way), whereas it would seem that you have not. But I won’t, since I accept that many good people, including you, have been tricked and lied to and deceived by Scientology.

  132. I’m sure you’re right, Paolo. LRH probably should have been audited on the Suppressed Person Rundown – which I think might be the best possible proof of the basic principles LRH discovered. In that rundown, the pc is audited on all the problems and overts and withholds that relate to the person who is suppressing him – and the end result is that this person, who may have been out of contact with the pc for many, many years, will somehow find the pc and originate a friendly communication to him! In other words – it handles the charge in that other person’s universe too. I don’t know what better proof there could be to the principles of ptsness and the principles of auditing in general – or, for that matter, what better proof of how interconnected people are to each other. In fact, the Suppressed Person Rundown would make a great subject for scientific research that it seems to me would result in clear evidence of the validity of the tech and the principles that underlie it.

  133. And “demon circuits” in DMSMH.

  134. I said a while back that OT II was perheps the biggest marketing trick Hubbard designed in the 60 space age when nothing was too outrageous and he had to come up with a blow out of your mind kind of thing. Alsoo it kind of takes out ALL the competition. Second I said on this Blog OT III might have been the biggest joke and greatest implant L Ron Hubbard played / Implanted. I refered to a Lecture of Hubbard done in october 1954 to show in his own words how to implant isomething in the minds of people if you wanted too. Up too OT III Hubbard HAd your TOTAL devotion had he not. You were ALL in total AGREEMENT. Fertile soil for an Implant.

    He couldn’t resist.

    “Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely”

  135. Marty,
    Along the line of this discussion of LRH’s end-of-life efforts and experiences, I wonder, have you read the book – Proof of Heaven – by Eben Alexander, M.D.? If you have read it – thoughts? Recently, upon recommendation of a friend, I bought the audio book and was most moved by Dr. Alexander’s profound beyond-body experiences and miraculous recovery from a brain infection that shut down the higher-thought, cognitive and creative portions of his brain. I recommend the audio book because he personally reads it, and one can hear the sincerity of his revelations and sense of mission in writing the book.

    This is the story of a man of science who before his medical near death believed only in traditional medical brain-based explanations of religious/spiritual experiences. He came out of a medical shut down of his brain with a profound reality of life beyond life. He relates experiences of conscious awareness of timelessness and universal love, communion with all beings and God, forgiveness, knowing, joy beyond joy, music and beauty more real than any of our physical world. Some of what he relates – the opening of “heaven” (which he admits our limited language cannot encapsulate) – sounds a bit implantish. However, the experience led to a tremendously positive change in his life and viewpoint that one cannot write it off as such. The story of love and joy and infinite communion beyond time-place-form-event was very moving to me, and added dimension to my view of LRH’s efforts.

    I’m curious what you and any others who have read the book think. Again, I highly recommend the audio version because Dr. Alexander’s own words relate a level of sincerity and joy that I think are lost in paper and ink.

  136. My own responsibility

  137. Forever Lurker

    “People sometimes find it easier not to look directly at what is (there) but instead use a via to look at or through. Unfortunately, the more one does this, the more of these “vias” there will appear to be. If you were paying for such a service you could part with a lot of $ and feel that that there is even more to handle than you started with. Does this ring a bell for anyone?”

    This quote is from a guy who audited Ron more than any other person, I’ve been told. What was his name again . . .? Oh yea, David Mayo.

    Is this relevant to your comment, Michael?

    After a point, I came up with the same conclusion that you did. I think it’s a very limited technique or approach, truth be told. Not to be turned into a career.

  138. I have never been tricked lied to or deceived by Scientology. People do such things. Some of them are Scientologists. And they carry on such purposes under the banner of Scientology and “love for L. Ron Hubbard”.

    But the majority of Scientologists I have known have been very fine people. And some, have studied for years and applied themselves with great discipline to be a position to help their fellow man. And they have dedicated their life to the skills to bring about positive change in others and upon this Earth we all share. And that commands my respect and admiration in any human being. And I know from my own experience they have powerful tools that are valuable to others.

    If we want to delve into illusion and deceit, I would think the fact that Americans can no longer own land is a more major issue that effects more people. The government has claimed it all and only rents it back to us under the banner of “property taxes”. This situation creates a condition of economic slavery for life. One MUST earn and income for life to live in a home.

    Scientology is just a body of knowledge contained in books. It did come with many warning labels. Like many things placed upon the Earth with warning labels, it can be used for for good purposes or not.

  139. Sid, besides Sarge saying that LRH was nice because he never yelled and screamed at him personally, he said that LRH had a lot of intention and was very powerful and thus he could a big effect on people but that he never held onto his anger – and that people misinterpreted him.

    Those were the things I meant about “another side” of LRH – from the viewpoint of someone who knew him personally. In short, he said LRH had a lot of intention, was very powerful – and was misinterpreted. And at the end of the interview he said that LRH “was also one of the nicest people I have ever met. I had so much respect for that guy.”

  140. T.O. I don’t think we are turning LRH into mud – not at all! The point was simply that, like other humans, he was not perfect – and by humanizing him we do not so easily begrudge him of his human failings. He wasn’t a god and didn’t claim to be a god – he himself said that he was just a person. Nevertheless, the fact that he was “human” isn’t to say that he wasn’t a GREAT human. I couldn’t agree more with what you wrote in another comment about his “huge efforts to get people to become self determined and to think for themselves” – and I would add to that, not only efforts to do so but huge accomplishments along those lines.

  141. Thanks for sharing your story Michael. This is the situation I have pointed out whereby the “customer” on corporate Church lines eventually gets switched over to buying and doing service not for THEIR benefit, but for the organization’s benefit.

    The C/S didn’t want hear what he was “supposed to hear”, he sends the customer back to the reg. Everyone being sent to the MAA is sent there because someone in the organization got charged up about something. The sec checks are for the benefit of the organization. The largest portion of experience on corporate lines is for the benefit of the corporation, not the P.C.. Forced to buy and read books is for the benefit of the organization. Forced to buy sec checks is for the benefit of the corporation.

    As far as the solo auditing is concerned, I had one simple datum I thought with. Communication is a two way thing. Conversations with one’s self is really not possible. Or even likely. So, when I start to have conversations with “myself”, …………. well, you probably get it.

  142. OT 2 was the best bridge level I did. Persistent F/N for years afterwards.

    Very heavy anaten at times while doing it.

    I don’t understand why it works really. Its really weird but
    bangs like dinosaur gangbusters. Anyone in reach of doing it
    you won’t be disapointed. 🙂

  143. I can only speak for myself on the purposes that made me curious about exploring the supernatural. I did not have any purposes to become more human. I mean, what is the purpose of a human? (An Earthing) To know that one would have to walk the back streets of Nepal, Zimbabwe, Pakistan, India, Mexico City, and Jamaica Queens. There you will find a purpose to atone. This is an IDEA. And apparently is was sold to quite a few thetans. Think of a universe where this would be considered a nasty waste of time and talent.

    a·tone·ment (-t n m nt) n. 1. Amends or reparation made for an injury or wrong; expiation. 2. a. Reconciliation or an instance of reconciliation between God and humans.

    Definition of GOD

    capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as
    a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe
    b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
    : a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
    : a person or thing of supreme value
    : a powerful ruler

    It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that people are PTS to a ruling class. Or that any thetan has the capability to be a God. All they would have to do is make themselves very valuable with some offering.
    Aretha Franklin qualifies as a God.

    What was the big debt owed to Christ? He atoned for our sins. If that was really true we would be living on a much different planet now wouldn’t we? It is no secret that “humans” are dedicated sufferers. And this is a huge purpose for humans.

    And if you don’t feel like suffering someone may come along and try to mock it up for you. Some do it under the banner of Scientology. I think I would have kept the “making amends” purpose away from the tech. Who / What are we making amends to? Karma is also part of atonement. Making amends is a human purpose. And it keeps thetans busy for very long periods of time. In indentured slavery.

  144. Scott Campbell: in the interest of truth…. The whole concept of the Scientology OT levels, could have been nothing more than a writer’s amphetamine fueled delusion…..
    Marty: You are wise beyond your years.

    So: you both figure out that the OT levels Tech. is no good, based on delusion, and nothing more.
    Or am I not intelligent enough? Or my English sucks and I do not duplicate.
    That is a big change of opinion Marty, you used to give that tech. quite a bit of credit, providing it is done with the right attitude.
    And you used to guide people onto Nots and Solo Nots at some point. What happened?
    And Scott, at Mike Rinder’s blog you comment: “And that’s the truth” on a comment by Mike Eldredge which goes:
    “Tech is now delivered all over the world by highly trained people who spent their lives learning how to do so in the correct manner.
    So this contradiction of truths is confusing and does not add up.

    What I really wanted to write about as I started was changing of tone levels in recent days. And possible causes.
    As I was getting auditing on 5, I went through some remarkable episodes, funny, sad, intriguing, transcending..wow.
    Sorry, I am not that delusional to have invented all these, and than go up the TONE SCALE to realms of peace, light and being.
    Then reading your post Marty, yanked me down that scale to being upset and confused by a classic cognitive dissonance.
    Next day more auditing, on that very problem. Funny, we did what Scott describes as eastern mysticism: no talking no explaining, just me looking
    and auditor letting me look. And then…tears of joy and seeing. And going up the scale again, way up.
    And then spending the whole evening trying to help others, always a good sign and a good tone indicator.
    Please friends: If a Tech. works and gets results, then it does. If it does not, then it doesn’t. Just examine and observe impeccably.
    Anything else is GOSSIP and however tempting, cannot replace ones own experience, observation and having looked.
    Suppose somebody can make cars, good cars, which you actually drive. Then later he’s found dead in mid-way between 2 cities,
    having walked, barefoot….will that stop his cars from driving?

  145. Good point 2mdxmr.

  146. That actually does make sense.

  147. Hi gang,
    Anybody heard of Teal Scott?
    Kris and I have been listening to this woman for a while now. She appears to be a natural OT. She was born with these abilities and was abused for years because of them and finally escaped. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOzuuJ9TJlQ&feature=em-share_video_user

    I hope this is not too far off topic. As you may know I studied Scientology for 40 some odd years and got up to OT7. I have done a lot of admin courses and was trained to Class 4 and XDN. Listening to her made me understand better my state of OT and I have gone on to greater cognition as a result.

  148. Marildi, this is not addressed to you in specific. Just saying it because of your previous message.

    When I read by people that have finished high OT levels that we are just humans or that LRH was just a human or that pan determinism is too far fetched and stuff like that, I assume that the OT levels they did, didn’t offer them any more than that, right? When I hear by high class auditors/CSes that a thetan’s abilities are delusionary, I assume that he cannot/doesn’t have a person achieve such delusionary abilities, OK? No judgement here whether it’s good/bad, right/wrong, just saying that for me it is logical sequence.

    OK then, so, what’s wrong with moving up a little or way higher? Obviously such people admit that SCN is very limited although they study and practice it. It seems it has to do with intolerance of their own and other’s potential to be a little or much higher, or else I can’t explain it logically. I’ve known people who just HATED the idea of a spiritualy able being –in SCN. Yet, they were fanatic pro-SCNists and put ethics on me too 😛 Can anyone explain to me wtf? And by the way, that could read some 8-8008 era stuff that’s full of delusions, while on the same time they cheer that SCN is always right and the only way and hurray etc. Ta-ta.

  149. Ah the most extreme is when I read by people that deliver SCN that LRH was an evil %#@$%#$%@$….while they still deliver. Sorry, wouldn’t you feel like asking then “Why do you deliver that #$@$, are you an evil %#$% too?”

  150. Don’t tease. Tell please 😉

  151. Communicator IC

    Amen also.

    One may, or may not, want to consider applying the same reasoning to the Reactive Mind. Until one was introduced to Dianetics, Scientology, or the book Dianetics, nobody thought they had a “Reactive Mind.” One is taught that one has a Reactive Mind, and that one must get rid of it. One is indoctrinated that one has a Reactive Mind, and that one must get rid of it. And then….

  152. Grasshopper (Mark P)

    I think you missed the point, O. My point was that Marildi supplied the rest of Sarge’s story about Ron – great guy, could lose his temper, vented it out and let it go. Ron was not a god, he was a larger-than-life man. This crazy “three cheers” to a pic of Ron, and maintaining LRH’s office in orgs 26 years after he left this mortal coil has objectified him. Not to mention the “Ron” series. Every story from people I _know_ who worked with Ron (including my mother) says that he was a great and sincere man who was both exacting and forgiving. I think it is important to remember that, because there are people painting him as a crazed deluded sociopath (some on this very post) and he wasn’t. He was a man who was utterly unafraid to follow his research down the path and report what he found, even if it’s Fac One, The Clam, BTs, whatever.
    From my perspective, the specifics of particular incidents never mattered, only the ramifications. Incidents 1 and 2 may never have happened. But, regardless, I got serious case gain from OT III. It was the ramifications of OT III, not the salacious incidents, that mattered. I don’t see them as even allegories. Just something to run. And it helped.
    Point being, a man named Ron Hubbard had the balls to write this shit down and run people through it, and because of that, people have done better and are doing better.
    And yet, he was a man, not a god. Human.

  153. Grasshopper (Mark P)

    Well, obviously we interact with it. I believe beings are not made if it. Deepak Chopra said it well: “We are not in our bodies; our bodies are in us.” By extension, we are not in the physical universe, the physical universe is in us.

  154. Grasshopper (Mark P)

    Thanks, Eric. I’ll check it out.

    As a note, people (like Tibetans, Indians, etc) who are open to the concept of past lives (and thus, future lives) usual find proofs of it. I can think of several cases where kids vividly recall their immediate previous lives. But of course this is anecdotal and not scientific, according to materialist science-types. So instead of research it, they push the one- life, no free will POV.

  155. Globetrotter — thanks for sharing your thoughts. I enjoyed reading them. I do have to disagree with the following statement though: “… but then again, that “science” has already “proven” that the soul didn’t exist …”

    Hubbard was not too good at science. He cherry-picked some facts and got a lot of things wrong (radiation, speed of light, etc.). If LRH gave the impression that science had “proven” that the soul did not exist, he fibbed.

    Science does not “prove” anything. It hypothesizes, gathers data, makes theories, and then tries to test further. Once one theory is falsified (if it is), then new theory needs to be developed to account for the new facts.

    Science absolutely does not, cannot, and does not strive for the proof that something does not exist. In fact, you cannot prove something does not exist. It is not even a logical conjecture. Prove to me that there is not a giant green parrot on a moon around Jupiter that really runs everything!

    There is something called materialism, and there is a behaviorist set of theories that theorizes that behavior is reducible to chemistry and such. But that is in a totally different domain from claiming the soul does not or cannot exist.

    Hubbard gave us all, me included, a very poor sense of science, he clearly had no sense of rigorous research or scientific method or documentation, and he was heavily biased against all psychology and psychiatry and left us all with this blanket “all psychs are evil” — even though there are supposed to be no absolutes! (In fact, early on LRH used to acknowledge people like Freud and others.)

    IF the work had been scientifically valid it could be studied scientifically and the results could be obtained predictably. By claiming Scientology as a religion, he explicitly conceded that it is NOT science and it therefore as much a matter of faith that exactly repeated rituals (auditing, indocs, you name it) will produce consistent results. This is no different than what any religion believes — and it is similar to what someone might believe in magical thinking, whether you are clicking together your ruby heels three times incanting “there is no place like home” or performing other rituals like a mass in Latin or saying hail Mary 50 times.

    Part of the genius of the sales of Scientology is that it gets around the fact that all these other beliefs also give people relief and happiness and hope and even some interesting abilities by invoking the Scientology conceptof being “keyed out.”

    Thus Scientology can invalidate each and every other belief system by forcing them into the Scientology paradigm and simply claiming the other systems only result in someone being “keyed out.” Hence Jesus (putting aside LRH’s denigration of him) was “just” a keyed out OT who shows up here and there in the universe time to time. Buddha was a very keyed out OT. And so on.

    But only Scientology can produce lasting results by erasing the reactive mind (not just keying it out) and of course by removing BTs.

    Except it can’t! People still get sick and die after clear and NED. OTs keep finding more and more BTs. And these failures then get justified by claiming that a high tone person attracts more BTs!

    The bridge is a carousel that goes round and round. There is no failure of the tech that cannot be forced into the Scientology paradigm and rationalized in any number of ways (PTS, SP, failure in KSW, out ethics, misunderstood words, SMERSH, Marcabian infiltrators, evil intentions, pesky BTs, false purposes, GPMs, not enough Ideal Orgs, you name it).

    So here in Scientology we have a belief system that cannot ever be wrong in its own view of things and that always has a justification for failure of its own tech AND a way to reconstruct anyone else’s success in any other system of belief into being explainable by the Scientology paradigm.

    This really is ingenious! Heads I’m right, tails you’re wrong!

    And yet against that … we have the gnostic experience that I and many of us have had of new states of awareness, genuine cognitions, clear and positive help to others, etc.!

    My view remains solidly this: if we want to validate and salvage the good in Scientology, we must let go of the dreck and the dross that crept in from Ron’s own case, the cultural context of the times, let him be wrong (and human) where Ron was that, and so on. If we cannot confront the truth, Scientology may survive as a “religion” — but the world is full of religions that are full of half-truths and lies. What we need is a path to truth and you cannot create a path to truth that is paved with half-truths and lies.

  156. Michael, I know the exact phenomena you are speaking of. The best ta I ever got was when I created the case myself and then blew it off. After getting out and seeing a very competent Independent and after quite a comm lag I started looking at my state before the OT levels and just getting onto them. I remembered the needle, wildly doing its own thing with me just looking at it stunned. And I realised that the end was what LRH said.
    For me, after the shock of the church, after LRH falling off of his god like pedestal, (I put him on) to becomming the man he always said he was, wanting his biography written “warts and all”, I think, we have got what he promised. I think its all there.
    The church doesnt know what eps are anymore, or for a long time, even someone still in would have to question their competence on that with the continual changing of the Bridge. So I wouldnt base any conclusions of the tech on their use of it.
    But if there is one thing I have learned well, its that we can really create our own case, after auditing it out, after we are pushed on past the ep.

  157. I made a Mistype I ment OT III, Sorry Terril and everybody. I can go along untill 1965. Not with all but with the general Idea.

  158. Yogha seems to a lot for the body tough and good food, but don’t overdue it, theody needs some fats and suggars to burn too.

    Eat wholesome foods, Onleyy processed food and multi vitamines won’t cut it. You can not fool the body. It needs what it needs.

  159. Yep. Hubbard sometimes told Scientologists what he was going to do to them before doing to them, and sometimes while he was doing it to them; however, it was usually presented as an unimportant side comment, or as something someone else – a bad guy – might do.

    “Ron would never do that to us. He warned us about that!” Etc.

    Hubbard was an “implanter,” but who would suspect it?

    In fact, there are people who *like* the idea of being “implanted” by Hubbard. It’s a thrill and an honor for them.

    Those are the people who will probably never recover from Scientology.


    Yes. I believe that when one looks at “directly at what is there” one sees that there is really nothing there. But we are gradually inculcated that something IS there, and that “something” is responsible for our aberrant behavior. We have begun to assign cause to that “something”. and have abrogated the responsibility that the “something” is of our own creation.
    The CS, not me, determines when that “something has been handled, in terms of an EP that was created by Hubbard. And on it goes as one moves into the OT levels, when that “something” has gone beyond the myth of one’s own reactive mind, to the grand myth of countless BT’s, each with its own mythical reactive mind. Each step along the way, that “something’ is reenforced. The “something” obviously is “case”. It is not me who determines when the “case” which I believe was never really there in the first place, has been handled. The insidious thing is that the good feeling,the lightness, the release,, comes when you have decided that some portion of the “case”, which you, with the help of LRH’s data, have yourself created, is no longer there; because you, yourself, have “as-ised” it. For me, and let me emphasize this, for me, it was brilliant trickery.

  161. And Theta Bodies (see lectures 1952).
    I never understood why they suddenly made such a big deal out of it and made it all confidential (besides making money with that and create a mystery sandwich ….)

  162. I have questions about BTs.

    1) Do they exist in each one of us?
    As far as I am concerned, I could not spot one in myself.

    2) According to NOTs materials available on the Internet, BTs are Thetans that are attached to parts of the Body, that is why they are called Body Thetans. What happens to BTs when the body dies, when there are no body parts left to be attached to?

    3) In the mid eighties, there were many Solo Nots success stories where apparently the Pre-OTs where remote auditing others. There were stories of remote healing or changing the fate of others with Solo Nots auditing. For example one of the OT7 said that she healed the French president Mitterrand of cancer in about 1985, when doing a Solo NOTs session.

    Thus I got the idea that with Solo NOTS, the pre-OT was remote auditing others. But according to the materials, the Pre-OT is auditing beings that are attached to his own body, not to the body of others.

    How does it come that the apparent result was like remote auditing other people?

  163. “I refered to a Lecture of Hubbard done in october 1954 to show in his own words how to implant isomething in the minds of people if you wanted too.”

    Absolutely ! In the PDC he explains the mecanism of manipulation on people. I was very shocked to read from Lrh that “74 billions of years” was just a marketing argument to keep people in the shop.
    You can do wins with theses datas if you are ok to be hypnotist. Keep just in mind that people who are hypnotized are ALWAYS ok to be asleep, believe, do or see what the hypnotist say to beleive, do or see.
    Wake up friends ! Please wake up !

  164. Dear Mickael, welcome to the club of awake people from hypnotism ! 🙂

  165. Thanks Dan. These stories are for me on topic.

  166. Very good point Chris.

  167. LRH was lonely. I heard one of the GO/OSA guys say
    that for Christmas in one of his later years all Ron wanted
    was to be with his family, which he could not as he was in

  168. Hi. I believe THOUGHTS exist. We create them and until we do something about them they will remain. Call them whatever you like. And Valences exist, winning personalities or traits that we assume or not as needed. You can obnose those within yourself as well. As far as the OT who cured Mitterand of cancer, the term hallucinatory cause comes to mind. These are folks who would profit from some MEST work and expanding their real effects across the dynamics. Their head is in the clouds and of little actual use to anyone. I have met plenty. They are focused on their first dyanamic. Real champs.

  169. This OT didn’t heal anything as François Miterrand died of his cancer… I know that, I am french.

  170. About “74 billions..” you can find the data in the lecture 59.

    In the lecture 47 he said (in french) : “Je peux tout à fait vous prouver que le noir est blanc et que le rose est bleu. Je suis le plus habile, le plus épatant des “convainqueurs” dont vous ayez jamais entendu parler. ”

    Check the lecture but in my own english : “I can absolutely prove that black is white and pink is blue. I’m the smartest, most amazing of convincing guy you’ve ever heard”

    I am sure Lrh used hypnotism technology on us.

  171. I don’t think Scientology is the only path to enlightenment exclusive of all other knowledge or subjects. I don’t think there is such thing as an only path. I’m not even sure there is such thing as a path to enlightenment- as an absolute thing anyway. Enlightenment seems to be a discovery of truth for yourself. A constant evolution. I think it is in some ways timeless. I am not sure what it is exactly and I don’t believe most people who claim to know do know. Most of what passes for this is just a construct of the mind. What I am looking for seems like a simple thing, almost impossible to define. It’s an awareness of self . A calmness. Whatever you call it, I did find a good meaty chunk of it in Scientology.

    I think LRH was like an artist. He operated on an aesthetic level the way you would write a song or create a work of art, but he did it in the field of the mind and spirit. He was like the Jimi Hendrix of the mind. He created some great stuff. Great stuff. But when we sit back and analyze all the notes and chords and lyrics or brushstrokes we arent taking it as a whole and we are not experiencing correctly. When we walked into a mission or org and started on our TR’s and started studying it all and getting huge wins in auditing and it was alive and like lightning- that was the right way to view it. Being the guy in the audience watching Jimi’s fingers for missed notes and figuring out how the lyrics don’t rhyme isn’t really experiencing the subject as it should be experienced to get out of it what is there.

  172. I will this around on you in the end everybody CREATED his own visualized version of a BT. You should ask eachoter what it looks like for them.

    Man the creator, and that is alsoo what he pressed.

  173. Alsoo you could if you are intrested read up on Psychosomatic Illness and the therapheatic solutions. With alsoo speak of vizualisation.

    And now for a mindblowing Phenomenon Synaesthesia

    Synaesthesia – crossovers in the senses
    Nabokov experienced colour with each sound, Kandinsky heard music with a splash of paint, both had synaesthesia, a rare neurological condition which causes the senses to intertwine

  174. “Make a copy of it, make another copy of it and another copy”

    Turning that around and you have a strong tool to reinforce your selfconfidence wre you can Implant positive toughts about yourself in your unconscious. The Thetan builds a machine to uplift/rewards itself and hides it away and forgets about it)

    Paired up with Scientology techniques and you haver some hardcore NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming.)

    All this makes me persistant in the tought that Hubbard deserves a place on the chain from freud to todays Psychology/Theraphy and what have you.

    It is okay he was skilled in hypnotism, Hypnotists are great in understanding the mechanics of the mind. Long before Psychiatry and Psychology existed there was understaning and praktishing of hypnotism were philosophers still somewhat reached into the dark.

    L Ron Hubbard knew instinctively or through observetion and expierience or all tree that man could better himself. He advanced on Freud by taking it beyond the diagnosis alone. Freud got trapped in the end being paid by wealthy gentleman to deal with their perceived difficult (read selfdetermined) wifes.

    It took a while and the Dalai Lama for Science to come up with this.
    ” Although science and religion are often in conflict, the Dalai Lama takes a different approach. Every year or so the head of Tibetan Buddhism invites a group of scientists to his home in Dharamsala, in Northern India, to discuss their work and how Buddhism might contribute to it.

    In 2004 the subject was neuroplasticity, the ability of the brain to change its structure and function in response to experience. The following are vignettes adapted from ‘Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain,’ which describes this emerging area of science:

    The Dalai Lama, who had watched a brain operation during a visit to an American medical school over a decade earlier, asked the surgeons a startling question: Can the mind shape brain matter?”

  175. Agree, Valences indeed exist, roles you play in life.

  176. Now the subject is free and the Church is so far gone that it becomes an intresting matter of study being freed up who knows were it may lead too.

  177. Remote Observer


    I haven’t tread every comment here, so if these are a duplicate thoughts, my apologies.

    There seems to be a remarkable similarity between Hubbard asking Sarge to create a machine to blow of his remaining BT’s (which Sarge obviously had no idea how to do) and Hubbard also asking David Mayo to complete the OT levels (per Mayo’s self report) and which Mayo also said he had no idea how to do.

    There are also numerous self-reports from people who were close to Hubbard in his final years that indicate he (Hubbard) was in decline and “not ready for prime time” despite assertions to the contrary issued via various comm lines inside the church to its membership.

    If these various testimonies are true, collectively they point to at least a strong element of deception regarding the long-term workability of the tech as a route to total freedom.

    A nearly inescapable conclusion for me is that if the Sarge story of Hubbard’s last months is true, virtually everything that has happened in official Scientology since then is fraudulent, especially since church members are induced to exchange money for a result that is known by senior church leadership to be unattainable.

    And while auditing does seems to be able to alleviate some temporal suffering when used by people of good will, “The Bridge” is ultimately a sham and does not produce free beings or permanently improved states of being, at least as described in the document itself and the attendant books, tapes and other issuance’s from Hubbard, (or from others in his name.)

    Its my view that the best evidence of the efficacy of any religion, political theory or philosophy is discoverable where that religion, political theory or philosophy is most strenuously applied. In the case of Communism, the relevant laboratories are the old Soviet Union and today, Cuba.

    In the case of Scientology, a good argument can be made that the final outcome for Hubbard (and his various family members) as well as the violent and savage environment described by various ex-scientologists as existing at the INT Base, are strong evidence of a deeply flawed religion / philosophy that simply cannot produce a world without, war, crime or insanity. And I’m pretty sure that a world without war, crime or insanity was the design promise for Dianetics and Scientology from a fairly early stage.

    More than 60 years of evidence demonstrates that at best what we have is an experiment in progress in need of a great deal more work.

  178. Hemi: “So: you both figure out that the OT levels Tech. is no good, based on delusion, and nothing more.
    Or am I not intelligent enough? Or my English sucks and I do not duplicate.
    That is a big change of opinion Marty, you used to give that tech. quite a bit of credit, providing it is done with the right attitude.
    And you used to guide people onto Nots and Solo Nots at some point. What happened?”

    Spyros: I shouldn’t speak on behalf of Marty nor anybody else, and I don’t. Just my own opinion: let’s not use Aristotelian logic. I don’t know exactly what OT 8s experience. I only know what some have said from time to time. I’ve concluded that most have wins, but not all the wins described in LRHs non confidential OT materials (the early 50s stuff etc). Again, let’s not use Aristotelian logic. It doesn’t mean that those states described by LRH cannot be attained. It means those OT 8s didn’t attain those states fully. We can speculate eternaly about the reasons why. Some say it’s because the tech got altered, others (RO) added CBR’s materials, others audit older versions of the COSes OT materials, other say it’s all a fraud, others do other stuff. I’m with the idea that all can be achieved, and that the means to achieve something is of secondary importance. I know I can do stuff and I know others can too.

  179. * if the Church’s OT levels set beings totally free, there wouldn’t be any talk about DM’s abuses etc –it would all seem like a funny thing. Who could oppress a free, responsible being? How?

    I believe the Church delivers SOME tech just so people can have SOME wins, and stay there and donate their bank accounts etc. But not enough wins to win over the Church. I ‘believe in’ our potential, and that to be at effect towards some dying group or anything else, is not ‘natural’ at all.

  180. Wow Flo, there you go

  181. Thanks, Dan. That seems to be thee consensus from people who actually worked with Ron.

    I don’t know what people’s expectations are regarding Ron. What, one man was going to built something perfect? Is the expectation that nothing is ever wrong, anywhere? People expect to walk into a Scientology church, and then, with no effort, just rocket-ride up the line on greased rails to full cause over life and full spiritual freedom?

    That is crazy. It is crazy for the Kool Aid people to think that every word uttered by Ron is (literally) gospel, and it is crazy for detractors to go the other direction and condemn the entire subject because Ron was not perfect. How easy it is for someone to go from “Ron is God!” to “Ron is a complete sham and the whole subject is a fraud!” I guess if you are stupid and unobservant in one direction, it makes sense that you would be stupid and unobservant when your “illusions” are shattered. As in all things, the truth is in the middle. But one thing I know is true – everyone I ever personally met who worked with Ron directly thought he was a great guy.

  182. It would seem that Ron was guilty of the very thing he accused the “aliens” of doing….It all blew back on him in the end.

  183. That’s a pretty long lecture, Cat. Anything in particular you wanted to point out by linking to it?

    The first several minutes is a discussion on rudiments and when to put them in and when not to. If anything, it shows the technical and precise nature of auditing. If people don’t understand this, it is not because it is bullshit, but because they don’t know the tech.

    In summary, Ron is saying that you should notice the state of the PC at the end of the session, and note it again at the start of the next. It’s a discussion of rudiments, which is basically, getting the preclear back “in session” in case something happened during the break. “In session” is defined as “Interested in own case and willing to talk to the auditor.” This has been the definition forever, and has never changed. This tape was in ’62, I believe, and this definition of “In Session” is the same now as it was then. Rudiments, the concept, are the same now as it was then; they are just run differently. This is technology that is consistent, and correct. Rudiments are ensuring that the PC is properly fed, had had enough sleep, and is not distracted – i.e. is ready and willing to get audited, and the purpose is to help the person and not make him worse, or waste time. Promising not to audit a PC who is improperly fed or hungry or has not had enough rest has been part of the Auditor’s Code since the beginning.

    I say all this because this is not the product of a scammer. It is not the product of a fraud. It is something that all therapists of all stripes could use to ensure what they are doing is helping someone.

    So, other than this, what about the tape prompted your posting, Cat?


  184. I like this. It feels like we are pretty close to being on the same page here.

  185. LRH described, I don’t recall exactly where but in one of his books I think, the relationship of Thetan and body as the body being like ” a splinter in the the thumb of the Thetan”.

    Talk about “BIg Me”/”little me”!

  186. Piggybacking here, forgive me please, Flo his first words are for you, This lecture is Hubbard at his best. I like this. WAKE up America take back your country from the banks and the filthy rich. The american dream is indeed a dream.

    Flo now we have to manage people to wake up from the American Dream Myth, Hubbard had it right about the bankers. Not that I am on board of all what he says.

    Alsoo this: am going to say it: BRILLIANCE (in this lecture)

    Did L Ron Hubbard never read Spinoza ?

    “The greatest secret of monarchic rule…is to keep men deceived and to cloak in the specious name of religion the fear by which they must be checked, so that they will fight for slavery as they would for salvation, and will think it not shameful, but a most honorable achievement, to give their life and blood that one man may have a ground for boasting.”
    ― Baruch Spinoza

  187. Forever Lurker

    Very well summarized and said, RO.

    One perspective that’s given me a lot of solace over the years is that I view the whole thing, all 60+ years of it, as a pilot project. And considered as a pilot project, you have to take an unvarnished look around and see what you’ve ended up with. Some hits and some misses; some successes and failures.

    You look around and see the products of the tech and lack of products of the tech and they’re truly as visible as the sky. We all know them, see them, read about them . . . and, well, are them.

    Considering all this 60 years of activity as a pilot project, an experiment, an attempt at something, I’m happy to take what good I got out of it and move on with my life. Fortunately for me, I got mostly benefit and very little harm. But I was a public and always stayed at arm’s length. Left at the GAT I release and never made a “pure donation” for anything over the years, which helped.

  188. Curiosus, I believe it’s the same principle that enables the Suppressed Person Rundown to cause changes in another person’s universe – i.e. it as-ises that person’s charge too. See my other post on this here:

  189. Thanks, Michael. I appreciate your comments.

    Let me speak from some personal experience and study (I trained through Class VIII, interned through Class VI and Class VI C/S.) And I agree with you that there were/are perversions in the Tech.

    First, did Ron know the “Whole Truth”? Actually I’m not sure there is a “whole truth” so hopefully we can leave that aside.

    As far as the SP tech if you really dig into all the data from Hubbard you see that actually it is the “PTSes” cause in the first place (postulates and overts, etc.) that bring about the condition. It’s why the PTS Rundown is done on four flows.

    I audited many Life Repairs and, except for one PC I can think of, every PCs ruin keyed-out. Would it key back in? Yep. Because generally the cause of something like a ruin is deeper than a new PC can reach. Where it would get handled is actually indeterminate because it depends on the source. In my opinion the purpose of the Grades is to put somebody’s Ruds in where they were much less likely to go out. It’s something everyone needs. And a ruin definitely has out Ruds connected to it. So it could get handled on the Grades.

    And as far as running “non-reading” items well, that is just a goof. If the PC is interested it should read. If he isn’t, it shouldn’t or something is being suppressed. I can tell you that over the last X number of years there have been horrible Grades overruns and running non-reading items. Changes to the Tech caused the PC to be hammered when something didn’t read. And then it would read on protest and now you’re running something the PC is not only not interested in but he’s protesting. Now THAT is a piece of destructive “Tech” and Ron had something to do with it. Basically it creates a mess.

    As far as running BTs there is nothing in the actual tech about hating BTs. Or loving them for that matter. As the auditor you are supposed to have a “no attitude”. The intention is to free them. Hopefully they would go Clear. Many, many of mine did with expressions of great joy.

    If you want to know about postulates you can study quite a massive amount of material in the Tech Vols. There is even a whole tape series on it not to mention voluminous mention in many other series.

    And finally: God. Now this is just my opinion but it is something that cannot be expressed in words. It is only something to be experienced. You can allude to God with words but that is about it. This has been recognized in many religions. In Judaism God’s actual name cannot be spoken. In Zen Buddhism and many other Eastern religions it is recognized that “God” itself is ineffable.

    But let me reiterate. There are perversions in the Tech. There IS a pure track of technology. Then there are Ron’s opinions. He said one time on a tape, “I’ll always tell you if I am expressing my opinion.” Unfortunately he didn’t – in fact almost never. The only way to know is to study and apply all the Tech. Then you’re able to separate the pure track of technology from Ron’s opinions. Unfortunately it is a rather large task – but personally it has freed me. Not only from Ron’s opinions but into the possibility of Total Freedom for real.

  190. Thanks for correcting me. Yes, I see now that I missed the point. I guess the point is that Hubbard lived life on his own terms. Some other people chose to live life on his terms. Some other people chose to live life on their own terms. Some other people feel best when reinventing his life or offering to society on their own terms. Like all other humans, he was many different things to many different people. And somewhere in the middle of the exchange of ideas and guessing about him, there is some small fraction of people that actually knew him. And in the midst of all of the conversations about Scientology, there is some small fraction of people that have actually experienced it.

  191. So, I guess the point I am taking from all of this, is that within the small fraction of people that actually knew him, that were within the small fraction of people savvy with knowledge of Scientology as a tool, within that very small fraction of the population, nobody was able to help him.
    And that is part of the human experience.

  192. My opinion: There are an unlimited number of “Levels” above OT VIII. But you’re on your own.

  193. Spyros, I don’t think you and I are in disagreement. The only thing I meant to say was that LRH had obviously not achieved full OT, such as what is described in 8-8008, for example – a Cleared Theta Clear. But I’m not saying it can’t be done. And LRH, although not a “god” in the fullest sense, was more god-like than he was “human”.

    Btw, here’s another interesting quote from Marty’s book, in the chapter about LRH’s death:

    “The sheriff [who doubled as the coroner] commented that he had never felt a body still as supple as Hubbard’s was, after having expired ten or more hours earlier.”

    When I read the above I wondered if it had an relation to something I read a long time ago about the yogi Paramahansa Yogananda. I found a description of it just now in Wikipedia:

    “As reported in Time Magazine on August 4, 1952, Harry T. Rowe, Los Angeles Mortuary Director of the Forest Lawn Memorial Park Cemetery in Glendale, California, where Yogananda’s body was embalmed, wrote in a notarized letter:

    “‘The absence of any visual signs of decay in the dead body of Paramhansa Yogananda offers the most extraordinary case in our experience… No physical disintegration was visible in his body even twenty days after death… No indication of mold was visible on his skin, and no visible drying up took place in the bodily tissues. This state of perfect preservation of a body is, so far as we know from mortuary annals, an unparalleled one… No odor of decay emanated from his body at any time…'” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramahansa_Yogananda

  194. Note: Help and Obey are two very different activities.

    Definition of HELP

    : to give assistance or support to

    a : to make more pleasant or bearable : improve, relieve
    b archaic : rescue, save

    a : to be of use to : benefit
    b : to further the advancement of : promote

    a : to change for the better
    b : to refrain from : avoid
    c : to keep from occurring : prevent
    d : to restrain (oneself) from doing something

    : to serve with food or drink especially at a meal

    : to appropriate something for (oneself)

    Definition of OBEY

    : to follow the commands or guidance of
    : to conform to or comply with

    : to behave obediently

  195. p.s. Here’s a quote from an article about the teachings of Paramahansa Yogananda:

    “A storage battery could be used indefinitely if recharged by electricity, and if the physical characteristics of its positive and negative plates and the electrolyte did not change. Similarly, by higher training the body may be sustained by the intelligent life force alone, which acts as the recharging electricity and also prevents the deterioration of the physical properties of the body battery.”

  196. Perhaps the real point in all of this, is that part of the human experience is being able to find thousands upon thousands willing to obey and yet not be able to find one in all of the obedient, willing to help.

  197. That could put some people in a GPM. As it is so very easy to be at effect and obey. And sometimes difficult to be at cause and help.
    One would need to go from effect to cause.

  198. Thanks. Totally got what you’re saying.

  199. So what is the point I am missing? There is Annie, pushing and pushing an Sarge to build this suicide machine. And there is Sarge, building some machine for Hubbard to slightly fry himself with.

    Excuse me. If your next door neighbor, who you barely knew, rang your door bell and said, “Pardon me, do you have a rope I can use to hang myself?” Do you give him a rope?

  200. Agreed, FOTF.

    And I feel very sympathetic to those who still believe in Ron and have to deal with the reality of his ending. It is sad to read those entries that try desperately to justify his desire for suicide by electrocution as a legitimate act.

  201. Can’t lie , he is entertaining

  202. It was on Youtube, not many L Ron Hubbard Tapes are and I hope every tape of L Ron Hubbard will be on Youitiube in the end, We Anons did our devestating job with much degradation and mocking. NOW YOU SCIENTOLOGISTS ARE AT BASE.

    make the most of it

    My promisse: I will put up every L Ron Hubbard tape on my Youtube Channel(s) unaltered if you provide it to me ready for upload. I live in the Netherlands David Miscavige and his Goons can’t get at me.

  203. Yes Grasshopper, I am convinced after innumerable experiences
    myself that I am a spiritual being and not the body.
    Also that the OTIII materials are valid as a therapy even though I
    had more wins on ARC S/W.
    I also believe that Ron was very lonely, harassed and hunted by
    the authorities, felt abandoned by no effective actions to vindicate
    his research. Plus his body failing. All this and having Pat and David
    as his terminals with the church, I can imagine it was a very rough
    time for him.
    Give you little true story. I believed since my earliest auditing that
    you as a being could go ext and travel around while your body was sleeping and had many experiences doing so but could never
    verify if it was true. But in late 1985 I had a dream I was meeting
    Ron. Standing outside his bedroom in a small area looking out a
    window and seeing a house being worked on wondering why Ron
    lived in such small quarters. Finally this pretty, soft-spoken woman
    said I could enter Ron’s room. I was amazed to see Ron’s body
    in such a sad state and with pill bottles on the nightstand. He was
    in a bad mood and I could not get a comm line in and soon the
    woman told me I had go outside. As the dream was so crystal clear
    and had such a profound effect on me I told some SO members
    about it at breakfast and one of them (Yael from Venezuela) asked
    incredulously how LRH could be PTS. That stopped me in my tracks
    and I never mentioned it again. Of course the whole outline of the
    landscape and the house and the inside of the trailer was mostly
    verified by the data we received after his leaving the body.

  204. A Wise Fool (with the emphasis on “wise”!), this is one of the best posts on Scientology I’ve read – and it’s no surprise that it comes from someone highly trained and experienced in the tech. Big sigh! LFBD! Thanks for writing this up!

    On the point about God, I think what LRH stated was basically the same as other expressions of God – or unwillingness to express. Here’s an example from *The Fundamentals of Thought*:

    “The basic characteristic of the individual includes his ability to so expand into the other dynamics, but when the Seventh Dynamic is reached in its entirety one will only then discover the true Eighth Dynamic.”

    One intriguing thing about that quote is that in earlier editions of the book, instead of the sentence ending with “the true Eighth Dynamic”, it reads “the true First Dynamic.” Can you shed any light on that?? I can see it as a possible transcription or editorial error (or maybe even a deliberate, know-best alteration) on EITHER edition, the earlier or later, but I tend to think the later version with “the Eighth Dynamic” is correct.

    On Michael’s question about “HOW postulates work,” I remember he brought that up in a post a while back and got me thinking about it. I believe that what he wrote before was that he wanted to know the actual “mechanics”. Another poster (2ndxmr) commented on the idea he had, which was that it related to quantum mechanics, i.e. a postulate is what creates the condensation or coalescence in the physical universe. Can you specify any LRH references in this general area of HOW a postulate works?

    Thanks again for your knowledgeable and very well spoken comment. 🙂

  205. p.s. About BTs, you wrote: “As far as running BTs there is nothing in the actual tech about hating BTs…”

    I had been thinking the same thing – that I never got the idea from any LRH writings I’ve read that he had any animosity towards BTs. I got that the processes were to free them, not destroy them – and that LRH thought this was necessary. However, some posters seem to like having their BTs around – and the BTs, rather than wanting to be “freed”, want to stay. This seems to be a matter mutual benefit in being a group. This may have been something LRH “missed”. You summed up your post with this:

    “The only way to know is to study and apply all the Tech. Then you’re able to separate the pure track of technology from Ron’s opinions. Unfortunately it is a rather large task – but personally it has freed me. Not only from Ron’s opinions but into the possibility of Total Freedom for real.”

    The “possibility of Total Freedom” would have to include not only distilling the pure track of technology but building on it – which is probably what you had in mind too as regards that exact “possibility.”

  206. I don’t believe Ron took on all the big intellectual and spiritual questions Terril.

    Policies of violence, greed for money, greed for power, betrayal of his wife etc are not the qualities of someone asking spiritual questions of life.

    And as we now know, the spiritual or religious part was a corporate scam to protect him from the law and increase profits.

    But as nothing is absolute, Ron also did ask some basic questions like the souls existence etc.

    When someone asks the big questions they deal with things like humility, love, service for service sake and not for PR, overcoming and neutralizing the internal noise that causes anger, lack of peace, greed, blame, ego, true spiritual liberation.

    Any ordinary person on the spiritual path knows that taking one’s life is a crime against self and life. Any everyday truth seeker knows that suicide doesn’t work. By killing a body you do not transcend suffering. The records of the mind are permanent.

    The source of Ron’s troubles are/were the same as ours: ourself.

    He saw externalities as cause until the end. He was mocking it up. All experience is self generated. He never arrived at the zero flow. He never saw he was doing these things to himself. He was creating a world of things attacking him and convinced his students to fight those self created shadows with the power of the organization.

    His was a warrior type spirit more than a wise man. And he attracted souls who resonated with violence against enemies, in his organization.

    Ron has the karma to work out of every violent act his black ops thugs carried out in his name.

    If the big questions, the spiritual questions were asked by Ron and then answered by him, Scientology would be an asset to society not a liability.

    Gandhi asked the big questions. That is why he folded his hands and bowed to his assassin as bullets ripped his chest opened. That was a real enemy. But Gandhi met those bullets with love. He asked the big questions and demonstrated the answer with that final act of compassion and courage. And that without one OT level under his belt.

    Only armed with the love of Christ in is heart, only armed with the hoary Vedas as his tech, a dedicated meditator-this one tiny, almost toothless unclothed man, purged one of the mightiest military powers from his country with an idea.

    An idea that came from asking the big spiritual questions.

  207. Atonement contains the word tone.

    Mentally you can separate the concept of tone from the concept of harmony or disharmony but the reality is that a tone does not happen in a vacuum and there is never just one tone and everything is connected and moving in and out of harmony. To have harmony there must be a yielding of tones to one another. In nature this happens all the time as it is the way of nature. A human can try to hold itself apart from nature and exert its will. But the path of the Tao is about always yielding, allowing oneself to align with the force and power of what is ( not what one is making up.) Death will come in any case.

    Jesus, through his acts of yielding, demonstrated the path of Tao and in doing so showed mankind how to be reconciled with (G) od and with death.

    His name got smashed in history.

    IMO, it was his yielding, not his suffering, that is the lesson.

  208. FOTF, good points. But there is a big dilemma with the science vs. religion question. Science, as it is currently, can only observe MEST phenomena, and there is no science of MEST-less spirituality, and for a good reason: it’s free, it’s subjective and it doesn’t follow any rules. Spirituality, in my opinion will never enter the field of current “science” as it is now, because the goal of science is to find repeatable patterns, laws, etc. that only exist in the MEST universe. There is no “spiritual science” because the spirit isn’t MEST and science is only equipped to deal with MEST and is baffled by anything that can’t be explained in MEST terms.

    And I can tell you that current “science” DOES actually think it has disproven the existence of the spirit, because, ironically, it BELIEVES so, and therefore only experiments with MEST, taking the non-existence and non-influence of the spirit as a given. And I think this is for a reason – current “science” is simply business, it costs a lot of money to do research, so only those things will get researched that someone with money has an interest in funding.

    A good example is that governments had spent HUGE sums financing remote viewing projects until they had the technology to have enough satellites in the sky that anyone with access could look anywhere, real time – at that point, governments’ interest in remote viewing ceased to exist. The PROVEN (used and verified by these government funded projects) phenomenon that a person can be able to perceive things by other than physical means only received interest and funding as long as it was useful for military and intelligence purposes, and it was discarded immediately when they had something “more efficient” – they were actually happy that “developments in science made it possible” to replace those special talents with some electronics and a disposable private at a terminal. So much about “science” and spirituality. They don’t mix.

    So you can expect the continuation of “scientists” monkeying around with the body exclusively to find the “remaining undiscovered secrets of life”. There will be further “discoveries” as to what area of the brain is supposedly responsible for love, which neurones in your brain store your memories, which part of the brain is responsible for humor and all that nonsense. It makes about as much sense as an announcement that scientists “discovered the transistor responsible for music” in the radio, because every time they heard music, they have also observed a specific waveform pattern on an oscilloscope, which “proves” that they found the “transistor responsible for music”. Such an observation would qualify as “scientifically proven”, because it would be repeatable, it would receive positive peer reviews in “the scientific community”, and so it would be accepted and taught in schools as “fact” from there on. Pathetic. Science today is nothing but the religion of MEST, completely prostituted by business and government. Since research only gets done where it is profitable financially or helps governments to remain in power, I wouldn’t even call it “progress”, more like a prescribed path – discover this and that, because that’s what WE (with the money and power) need.

    The “scientific method” fails entirely when you try to research the spirit, because, well, try to measure and document anything a spiritual being does, and by the way, good luck making it repeatable. A free being does whatever it pleases, and doesn’t follow patterns. Those parts of a being (in my belief at least) that can be measured and categorized by “science” are not the spirit itself. A spiritual being may behave a certain way, and suppose “science” can observe it somehow, but good luck trying to get a free being to repeat identical patterns on command! You can’t cage it, you can’t force it to do it again or stay for another repeat experiment or do the same thing some other time or place… so it will lead nowhere.

    That’s why most things that deal with spiritual things are religions – they have to do with what beings BELIEVE, they are SUBJECTIVE and they don’t follow the rigid and limiting rules of MEST. So by only being prepared and able to observe MEST, current “science” with its “scientific method” fails miserably when it tries to answer questions that have to do with the spirit. That’s the subjective territory of self-created or accepted beliefs based on which a spiritual being operates, and can change at will, and therefore no scientists will “discover” the patterns and laws regulating it, because those “laws” and “patterns” don’t exist in solid form outside the physical universe.

  209. It is very challenging for any Scientologist (or “ex”) to evaluate LRH’s mental state at any given time as we are still so tied up with not only our original postulates re: Scientology, but for many of us, the great life changing wins we’ve had from T&P. So you notice, we always get a certain dose of “He was not a Saint”, “He was just a man” and a number of anecdotes about how charming, caring or charismatic Ron could be when he wasn’t in restim over something. All of which may be interesting to us old timers, but is hardly very relevant data in evaluating LRH’s mental state over the years AND HOW THAT AFFECTED THE THIRD DYNAMIC CULTURE OF THE SCIENTOLOGY WORLD WELL INTO THE 21ST CENTURY.

    I will just point out a couple of starting places that indicate some VERY disturbing points about LRH’s attitude towards others and that these same attitudes affect how the CoS handles people currently. I refer to points in DMSMH and Science of Survival. DMSMH is ridden with the attitude that Dianetics is the most important discovery in mankind’s history and that LRH is taking that point to the extreme of Dianetics essentially ruling EVERY discipline on the planet (Medical Dianetics, Judicial Dianetics, etc etc) with presumably HIMSELF as the source of sane life throughout planet Earth. I point out that this is in BOOK ONE – 1950.

    In SOS of course, we have the most controversial statement that LRH ever made in his early work, and yet it is really too much for practically anyone to actually confront. You know, the part about the isolation of and disposal of 1.1’s. The idea that SOMEHOW, an emotional tone (chronic I guess) would be decided as existing in certain individuals -and that SOME group appointed by SOMEBODY would make this decision and that these individuals would then lose their liberty and if you read the actual words, their lives because of these decisions ……. (and please, I can already hear the charges of “literal” – I’ve done the Primary Rundown, KTL, the Supe course and listened to the study tapes numerous times …)

    I think in the two early instances above, you see a man with some sort of severe “Moses/Jesus” thing going on… the “law giver” and “the savior of mankind” …. or even thinking he WAS a sort of God … you know “source”…. and you see the early indicators in Scientology (rememeber, LRH was 40 at this time) of a man with great psychological problems who had designs on essentially “ruling the world”, and make no mistake about that. This type of insanity only grew and grew over the next couple of decades, eventually I guess he convinced himself he had been Buddha as well. So we have a starting point in looking at Ron’s insanity and can trace it to his very unhappy and even nuttier ending.

  210. I wonder. What are your feelings and opinions watching this song ?

  211. On ESMB, there is a thread referring to this article by Marty and Hubbard’s last days. One of the contributors made reference to a relative who had experienced a series of strokes and was similarly delusional to Hubbard at the end. Vistaril, which was in his blood, is also used on stroke victims. Just another thing to look at- he was off the rails but at this stage it was related to his physical condition at the time and he was not being cared for properly.

  212. I can onley refer to my post I made earlier.
    You seek closure, I think “Sarge” cared forn him a lot unlike the vultures

  213. Must post the Man again

  214. Do you lot know that you are pestering an old man in hid dieing days,

  215. It isn’t easy planning death. In fact, it is so socially unacceptable if someone assists with such plans they are in deep legal trouble. Unless of course you wish to plan only for disposal of your possessions. Then you can write something up. That is acceptable. Disposing of “yourself” , is, believe it or not, against the law.

    People are legally supposed to wait until they are “taken”, by old age, virus, ill health war or domestic abuse. Traffic accidents are deemed fair too. All “accidents” are acceptable ways to go. Drowning, falling, tripping, boating etc etc. Recently someone went overboard on a cruise ship, that was a big flap. Considered very bad manners.

    O.K. so what if Hubbard felt he wanted to check out on his own terms?

    And, he is criticized for the shabby methods he came up with.

    Well, who else has shared their program for checking out? I mean, who are we comparing his death plans with?

  216. Never take things other people take for granted.

  217. Joe, the whole idea in Dianetics was simply that an understanding of the mind would be key to the success of medicine, justice, etc. I don’t see a problem with that – it makes sense to me that such an understanding is fundamental to those subjects.

    As for the controversial statement in SOS, the following excerpt is where LRH talks about the two ways of handling people from 2.0 down – either to raise them on the tone scale by processing, or to dispose of them. He says what would happen if you chose the second way – but he does not say to choose it. In fact, he makes a point about processing not being a great task. And the fact that all the rest of the book is about how to do processing should tell us something too – although not literally. Here’s that passage:

    “The reasonable man quite ordinarily overlooks the fact that people from 2.0 down have no traffic with reason and cannot be reasoned with as one would reason with a 3.0. There are only two answers for the handling of people from 2.0 down on the tone scale, neither one of which has anything to do with reasoning with them or listening to their justification of their acts. The first is to raise them on the tone scale by un-enturbulating some of their theta by any one of the three valid processes. The other is to dispose of them quietly and without sorrow. Adders are safe bedmates compared to people on the lower bands of the tone scale. Not all the beauty nor the handsomeness nor artificial social value nor property can atone for the vicious damage such people do to sane men and women. The sudden and abrupt deletion of all individuals occupying the lower bands of the tone scale from the social order would result in an almost instant rise in the cultural tone and would interrupt the dwindling spiral into which any society may have entered.

    “It is not necessary to produce a world of clears in order to have a reasonable and worthwhile social order; it is only necessary to delete those individuals who range from 2.0 down, either by processing them enough to get their tone level above the 2.0 line – A TASK WHICH, INDEED, IS NOT VERY GREAT [my caps], since the amount of processing in many cases might be under fifty hours, although it might also in others be in excess of two hundred — or simply quarantining them from the society. A Venezuelan dictator once decided to stop leprosy. He saw that most lepers in his country were also beggars. By the simple expedient of collecting and destroying all the beggars in Venezuela an end was put to leprosy in that country.”

  218. In a way I have to disagree with that. You say:

    Because generally the cause of something like a ruin is deeper than a new PC can reach.

    I don’t like that kind of talk, because it invalidates what a Dianetics book can do in the hands of a layman, who can with no prior experience in RCS “indoctrination” sit down with a friend in his den and run out all or nearly most of his engrams in 2 weeks on Book 1 alone.

    I don’t really like that kind of talk. 🙂

  219. Several schools of thought have developed about BTs. There’s the view of Alan Walters and David St Lawrence that they’re fully individual thetans who want nothing more than to hang around and be our little helpers. There’s the late Ken Ogger’s opinion that they’re fragments of ourselves that we have put on others, or fragments of others that they put on us, and can be reunited with their source.

    And there’s the theory that they are circuits, parts of our mind that we have partitioned off by valence walls; this was LRH’s original idea in DMSMH, and was most convincingly argued by Dennis Stephens. I like to think that these differences will eventually be resolved – just as the controversy among physicists a century ago as to whether light consisted of waves or particles was resolved by the realisation that light can be understood in either way.

    Your questions are good ones that have to be asked, Curiosus. As to number 1, may I offer the “possibly helpful advice” that no-one should ever compromise with their own reality. If you cannot observe something, beware of those who want you to have faith in its existence.

    NOTs is primarily about handling misconceptions. In the theory of NOTs these are considered to be held by distinct entities rather than the preOT themself. But the workability of NOTs is proved by its application, and would remain even if the theory had to be revised.

    My biggest win on audited NOTs was in removing a long-term problem that a friend had – just by identifying a significance in their universe and cogniting that I could take responsibility for it, even though they had it long before I knew them. Truly, this was being cause over life! On the other hand, I’d be sceptical about anyone claiming to cure cancer in a total stranger.

  220. Thanks Globetrotter. You brought a couple other thoughts to my mind.

    Science has discovered that the universe itself is unpredictable. In the 19th century the paradigm was positivism, the universe ran like clockwork, and you could, if you wanted to, calculate out every detail of movement of matter and energy.

    Then came post-positivism — the stance that there is a universe out there, but we can only continually improve our understanding bit by bit and never will get it exactly.

    Currently, the universe is widely held to be unpredictable — at least at the quantum level. Even things like the location of say an electron are no longer solid (you can specify location or momentum, but not both — Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle). In fact, I think the best way to look at a “particle” like an electron is like a probability wave.

    The effect of the observer on particles is now proven — things behave differently in some cases when they are observed by the experimenter.

    And then there is the famed “spooky action at a distance” where entangled particles separated in space can still interact at the same instant, apparently violating the speed of light (limit on signal / information speed).

    Not to mention that for decades, scientists have recognized that matter is basically … nothing. Empty space and vibrations. If the Washington monument were somehow compressed into “solid” matter (no space between particles) it would be about the size of a pencil eraser.

    There is a growing recognition that MEST-limited science constrains science wrongly by cutting out part of reality. One book that might be of interest is The End of Materialism by Charles Tart. Tart spent a university career investigating the paranormal / parapsychology. After decades of research, he concluded that there is more than material based science can explain (Tart and others refer to the MEST-based limits of science as scientism, and hold — as I do — that true science must go beyond that).

    Anyway, check out Charles Tart if you are interested!

  221. First, thanks for this post. And there have been some truly amazing insightful comments as well. Thank you all for being here.

    Some things I’ve learned over the past 30 years in Scientology, and during the past 4 years separating out of Scientology:

    1. Being part of something much larger than myself was therapeutic. It took attention off the yammering inside my head and focused it on being of service to others. And Scientology’s goals were on a Universal Scale. You can’t get much larger than that.

    2. I have been guilty of laziness in my spiritual growth. I accepted the idea that LRH had it all figured out. I subordinated my own sense of logic, and my own observations to this hopeful, but wrong idea.

    3. I achieved a great deal of case gain through my association with Scientology and Scientologists, through the study of it, through life’s experiences explained within the framework of it as a philosophy. I have also experienced a great deal of case gain extracting myself from it, from embracing the idea that one can graduate from it.

    4. Everyone has their path and I have mine. It is as individual as we are individual. This is something to celebrate, not fear. Nobody can compel you to go down any certain path without your agreement. You will recognize when you are on your correct path if you are sincere. And paths can be very wide, covering many fields and subjects.

    5. LRH tried, but in the end, failed and what Sarge was describing was, to me, a description of a man coming to terms with that.

    6. We are all here to experience the experience, and the Beatles, and other musician artists were right. It is all about love.

    7. The idea of trying to achieve OT, of becoming a super being, even if it could be achieved, would be a tragic end. Being “far more able than the most able” leads to a lonely, individuated life. Look no further than the final days of LRH. Striving for this vaunted state leads people into lauding fucktards like Grant Cardone, and any number of his ilk. You may believe, as some kind of super being, that you can and did do it all by yourself, but you are deluded. What to me is empirically true is that we are all very dependent on each other and we help each other in so many ways. The most rewarding life is one in smack dab in the thick of living, helping, being helped, communicating, laughing and crying, and experiencing. See # 6 above.

  222. Sorry for my english, I hope you will understand the view point.

    The body is composed of billions of bacterias, more than celluls. If some bacterias are dangerous for the body the majority form a peaceful symbiot community. When our body is not in good shape we neutralize the bacteria responsible of the disease not all the bacterias of the body.

    With the OT levels theory we try to send away any BTs (entities, demons…).
    Some people feel relief with this, some feel uncomfortable.

    My question : If they really exist, are BTs dangerous or just symbiots ?
    If you hunt arbitrarily (or free them) even if they does not hurt you is that does not weaken the structure of man ?

    Does we hunt potential dangerous bacterias when we are in good shape ? No. Bacterias form usually a peaceful community and if you attack all the community pay attention not to be attacked in return ! Don’t forget they want to survive too !

    May be some BTs (if they exist) want to stay with you as symbiots. May be auditing disturb us more than they free them ?

    I say that because OTs I know are often upset as they were always attacked by something…

    Many questions around this BT theory.

  223. Hi Flo,

    In 1981 Mitterrand was given a life expectancy of about 6 months.

    According to Jacques Attali, his permanent adviser, his physicians never understood how and why he survived this long (1996).

    This Solo NOTs gain was reported approximately in 1985 by one of the early Solo NOTs auditors. I don’t know the date of the session that interfered with Mitterrand, but that was possibly in the early months of Solo NOTs delivery, which began in 1981.

    Moreover the cancer of Mitterrand was a closely guarded secret, revealed only in 1992. This means that this OT had a knowledge of this cancer via a non conventional way.

    So maybe there was a Solo NOTs session that improved the condition of Mitterrand, but not up to his complete healing.

    There are also these words in his last speech: “I believe in the forces of the spirit and I will not leave you”. It seems that he was sensing some connections with the spiritual domain.

    When an auditor is changing things remotely in your universe, do you feel it?

  224. “Nevertheless, I hope some bright minds will once work over his discoveries and make a real science out of it.”

    I hope too !

  225. Mariane Eriksson

    Thank you, Mr Fairman. The ‘body thetans’ are the new version of ‘the Devil’, and getting rid of them … a witch hunt to distract us from our own dumb bits. Talk about placing the power outside of yourself. The illusion of evil entities messing with us can be useful at times, but then quite the opposite the rest of the time.

  226. Good points!

  227. M,
    “I would extrapolate from all this that if all “defilements” are removed, as in auditing or the like, a thetan could go back to being pure theta with the renewed choice of making “the decision to be” and assuming a viewpoint.”

    Very well stated and, perhaps, the point where Scientology departs from the Theravada Buddhist Path. For me, the potential to be is the last bit of clinging. Removing the “potential to be” is approached in a different way for reasons of ignorance but not amnesia
    George M. White

  228. Well said, John Doe. To quote John Lennon, “Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans”. It just makes sense that the master plan, the highest priority, should be to experience life to the fullest, as it happens.

  229. Marildi, I guess we are going to have to agree that we have very different perspectives on these writings.

    1) Who decides when an individual has dropped below 2.0 and so now needs handling?

    2) In fact, who determines what the criteria themselves are for what constitutes the factors that indicate a person has fallen below 2.0?

    3) Who carries out the disposing of other beings quietly and without sorrow? Or quarantines them from the rest of society? How do they get that post? (In 35 years in Scientology, I NEVER met people who were even close to sane enough to be this elite).

    Think these are just academic questions? Then you are probably not very familiar with the almost constant (and crazy) evaluation that various persons and groups put others through in the CoS with severe consequences to these individuals’ lives almost every day. I saw it for over 35 years. The model of a self appointed spiritual/emotional elite deciding which others have the right to liberty and life is absolutely fucking appalling, disgusting, outrageous and I will not go into agreement that it has any fucking validity in actual practice whatsoever. This picture of a “brave new world” which makes standard fascism/soviet -ism almost like child’s play is a danger that all free people need to be vigilant against. I promise that there WILL be people who will never let a third dynamic philosophy like Scientology as written by LRH ever take hold, certainly not in the United States of America.

    The inevitable result of the writings you quoted is what you see in the regime of Kim Jung Dave in the current CoS. To think that that such a group or philosophy would ever actually get control of a portion of the Earth is truly terrifying.

    You know, by numerous stories I’ve heard, LRH fell below 2.0 quite often in the last 15 years of his life. I guess he was lucky he didn’t live in a world that applied his solutions for those who fell on tough emotional times. (because he certainly got a lot of auditing, which means the next alternative would have been …….)

  230. And by the way, personally, I do not, do not, do NOT want ONE philosophy of life by ONE individual to permeate all the disciplines of the Earth or even to assume that just ONE philosophy is SO superior to all others that it deserves precedence in all of these disciplines. That’s because I am interested in FREE thought and FREE consideration and I am open to the probability that with billions of thetans on this planet and thousands of years of history and many great thinkers, that not just ONE man came up with all the answers. I won’t live a life where my own mind and thought is curtailed by the ONLY “truth giver.” And I’ll just give this my own AMEN.

  231. Joe, I do not have a different perspective from yours as regards the questions you listed relating to that *Science of Survival* reference – or the points you made about the CoS. Not at all! I just don’t read that passage the way you do. To me, LRH was making the point that “quarantining” is one handling that does “work,” as in the true example of the handling of lepers – but that this is unnecessary since individuals can simply be handled with auditing, which is “not even a very great task”! And he went on to write a large, detailed book telling how to audit ALL tone levels.

  232. G,

    “For me, the potential to be is the last bit of clinging.”

    You’re beyond me there, George. I do have a book on Buddhism that I intend to get to, though. 🙂

  233. Here, we are in full agreement. Nevertheless, some (not all) of the contributions made by LRH could be helpful to many disciplines.

  234. “The most rewarding life is one in smack dab in the thick of living,”

    “There is only one way, really, to get into a state of living, and that’s live! There is no substitute for an all-out, over-the-ramparts, howling charge against life. That’s living. Living does not consist of sitting in a temple in the shadows and getting rheumatism from the cold stones. Living is hot, it’s fast, it’s often brutal! It has a terrific gamut of emotional reactions.
    If you are really willing to live, you first have to be willing to do anything that consists of living. Weird. But it’s one of those awfully true things that you wonder why one has to say it. And yet it has to be said.”

    -L. Ron Hubbard

  235. Michael Fairman’s posts show a person’s self determinism being suppressed by the fundamental structure of the technology of L Ron Hubbard.

    The presence of Michael’s posts here on this blog, and the discussions which have been allowed to follow them, show people’s self-determinism being rehabilitated again.

    Way to go, Marty.

    Way to go.


  236. As a side-note — that opera cape was a present by the Flag Management sometime — I’d say Christmas 1997-98 …

    I believe it was Diana who thought it would make a perfect gift for him and gave me the task to find a tailor to make it for LRH. I was terrified it would turn out badly and when it arrived I was then terrified showing it to everyone as I wrapped it up for him.

    I’m glad to hear that it appears he wore our gift. (unless of course this was a different one)


  237. Kim Brillon Kim Brillon

    “Be aware of the weird trick the Church of Scientology in Buffalo NY does to get you to join”

  238. Roger from Switzerland Thought

    A quote:
    “Get Off The Scale!

    You are beautiful. Your beauty, just like your capacity for life, happiness, and success, is immeasurable. Day after day, countless people across the globe get on a scale in search of validation of beauty and social acceptance.

    Get off the scale! I have yet to see a scale that can tell you how enchanting your eyes are. I have yet to see a scale that can show you how wonderful your hair looks when the sun shines its glorious rays on it. I have yet to see a scale that can thank you for your compassion, sense of humor, and contagious smile. Get off the scale because I have yet to see one that can admire you for your perseverance when challenged in life.

    It’s true, the scale can only give you a numerical reflection of your relationship with gravity. That’s it. It cannot measure beauty, talent, purpose, life force, possibility, strength, or love. Don’t give the scale more power than it has earned. Take note of the number, then get off the scale and live your life. You are beautiful!”
    ― Steve Maraboli, Life, the Truth, and Being Free

  239. Delete user deleted Vid herself Church as fangs still

  240. A good heart these days is hard to find, Mosey found a good heart and stuck to it, bless her heart Marty.

  241. I guess we all can take different lessons away from that event. And perhaps there are many different lessons to learn from it. Depending on your point of view. In Dianetics, Original Thesis, Hubbard clarifies the definitions good and evil as “modified by viewpoint”. A huge piece of information that seems to have fallen below the floor boards of those less read, leading the Church these days.

  242. Even a Valence or role you play can be positive(or negative)

  243. Not that I agree entirely but Knowledge is Free, that is at least we Anons try to achieve

  244. My checking out plans:

    1) Live ethically so my conscience is clear
    2) Love others so I leave a trail of beauty
    3) Know and have faith in a Supreme Being so I greet the end in bliss
    4) Live well and take care of my body so I don’t breakdown through self abuse and thereby cause my own suffering.
    5) meditate daily to become familiar with bodiless living.
    6) live by the laws of spiritual living as communicated by the great sages and saints of all time.

    It is sad to hear these justifications of Ron’s wishes for electrocution.

    When my end has begun, I will fly into the arms of joy, overwhelmed by my ecstatic being dancing into forever. And with my friends and teachers at my side I will dissolve my earthly dross into my astral home of harmony and theta. And there I will find sweet repast for 500 years until my sojourn takes me back again to work out my earthly karma.

    Then again I will shoulder the wheel of societal evolution and march forward with my loved ones, wending my way to final emancipaction in Spirit. Ever joyful, ever existing, ever conscious, ever free!

  245. Cat Daddy, I think you like Mosey and didn’t mean the Texas meaning of
    “Bless your heart”.

  246. We dutch just got that gut feelling of, hey you wanna fuck me over, bugger off

  247. KSW is a represive tool

  248. Thank you FOTF, I will definitely check it out.

  249. Christine, Yes, He wore it and I’m sure it was THE one. He had it at Creston and wore it when he dressed up. Love, Sarge

  250. Second that!

  251. Jenna considered suïcide, bless her heart

  252. Those are some great Affirmations. Ron’s Affirmations apparently worked for him, at least up to a point. Perhaps yours will work for you.

  253. You see how hard it is? These are all policies for living, not dying. This is a guide line for LIVING. I want to know if you have set a date to check out and what method you have chosen to dispose of your body.

  254. Meaning, will go by virus, disease, accident, old age, organ failure cancer or any of the other approved methods? Will you wait to be “taken” in ways you can claim you were not responsible for? Have you set a check out date or are you taking it day by day or year by year or what?

  255. Hemi,

    I had a feeling that this might happen. Sorry. Let’s just say it was a bad example, stated for effect.

    I do know that scientology works. It’s what I myself use in order to achieve spiritual enlightenment.

    So there you go!

  256. Spyros,

    You’re right. The moment one has the “Intention to succumb” (on any or all of the Four Flows) one has trouble.

  257. It may be that Ron chose “that dickhead” for reasons that seemed sufficient to him at the time given his overall goal of establishing a powerful “catholic” CoS, and chose to let nature take its course from then on. Realizing his own time was short, he may have felt he had to start delegating for real.

  258. Yes T.O., Sid made a short and “truthy” post. What it has to do with “truth”, is anyone’s guess.

  259. There is no guarantee that Miscavige, who controlled Ron’s comm lines, would have passed along Ron’s request for an auditor. Especially if Ron had had some strokes/other physical medical issues which had reduced his capabilities. “Young Turks” are often impatient for the old guard to pass away or be otherwise deposed. Even some Doctors and nursing personnel in today’s hospitals see some patients as hopeless and give them only palliative care such as painkillers until they pass away.

  260. I think what is being left out of these discussions is, What was Ron’s actual physical, medical condition at the time? That would bear on what kind of rpocessing could have been run on him, wouldn’t it?

  261. I think that past a certain point in time and until his death, Ron was intentionally kept isolated by Miscavige, Broeker, et al, so he was given no chance to have any research assistants.

  262. What would constitute “ready for upload”?

  263. Brian, I believe one of Ron’s objectives was to establish a rich and powerful “catholic” Church of Scientology that would be difficult to take down. Thus his later policies.

    On another topic, some of your posts read to me as rather “holier than thou”. Case in point:

    “Any ordinary person on the spiritual path knows that taking one’s life is a crime against self and life. Any everyday truth seeker knows that suicide doesn’t work.”

    I guess that’s easy for you to say, but it begs the issues raised by those who advocate for a “right to die” in the medical area. This right does not exist in our culture. Suicide is in fact, against all reason, totally “illegal” in many jurisdictions, causing untold suffering of many people.

    My first reaction to reading this from you was, “Thanks so much for this uncompromising make wrong/guilty of so many of us”.

    One example, which is common in everyday life: My friend’s father had a serious stroke which left him aware but largely incapacitated in many ways. This was a capable man, a “poor Kansas farmer” who had built and maintained his own house, maintained his own car and tractor, grew his own food, and generally took care of his own life and family.

    After the stroke, he was at times still able to speak to some extent, and after some time in his incapacitated condition, one day he asked, “I’m not always going to be like this, am I?”

    I hope you enjoy your journey on your “spiritual path”, but I also hope you go and work in a hospice somewhere for a few years. In the meantime, try googling for Dr. Kevorkian, who was railroaded into jail here in Michigan for offering his services in delivering “assisted suicide” to terminally ill people in pain. Try also searching for “hemlock societies”.

    The inhibition of all suicide and the enforcement of staying alive in the face of extreme pain and disability are to my mind the real crimes, reflecting an attitude of a cruel and unseemly thirst for control over the lives of others instead of allowing them their own self-determinism.

  264. What makes you think Ron could have “picked up the phone and called in a Class XII”?

    As I posted recently, I think Miscavige and Broeker held LRH’s comm lines to the outside world tightly and made sure that he communicated only through them, supposedly for purposes of “security”, as th eFeds were after him. He was “in hiding” supposedly until Miscavige delivered the “All Clear” that would allow LRH to come back into the open. Of course neither Miscavige nor likely Broeker, ever intended for this to actually happen, so they engineered it to make LRH a virtual prisoner with no direct comm to anyone outside his “hiding place”. They may have justified this by pointing to his deteriorating physical condition.

    Have you read Marty’s last book? Much information there about the overall scene.

  265. This is really a great quote. Thanks so much for posting. Do you remember what issue it was in? I’d love to read the rest.

  266. Hi David and Marildi,

    From what you say, and from other similar success stories, and by using ordinary language, we could say:

    When there is a conflict between two persons, this creates a ball of mental energy that is shared by these two persons, even when they are a long way apart.

    When one of these persons is auditing this mental ball, the ball is destroyed for these two people, as it is shared. The conflict is resolved, and old enemies become friendly again.

    There is a astounding parallel with the phenomenon of quantum entanglement in Quantum Mechanics:

    When two particles are entangled, what happens to one of the particle is instantaneously transmitted to the other particle, even when they are a long way apart.

    That is possibly an indicator of the quantum nature of mental energies.

  267. Mariane Eriksson

    Sweet and lovely truths! And of course, the earth’s body treated with the same care as one’s own – will also avoid needless suffering (that is part of ethics, but sometimes forgotten).

  268. Mariane Eriksson

    ‘Knowledge is Free’, with capitals like that, is a gorgeous saying. Thank you Anons.

  269. Mariane Eriksson

    Yeah! All truths fit together. No need to shut some of them out. Even Ron admitted that his theories have strength in part because they blend in various wisdoms from the past. Why would the buck suddenly stop there ?!?! Lol

  270. Mariane Eriksson

    It is therapeutic to read these posts. The Cos is lacking love and the ex- community is also. Here, I find the philosophy of love working.
    When I started paying attention to Ron’s theories was when I heard him describe the eighth dynamic as Love. I knew then he was barking up the Good Tree, the Real one.
    One of the things that turned me off was all the promises of OT this and that. I thought, don’t try to seduce me with these lingo-laced/exclusive/me-me-me sounding promises. Can you help me to be more loving ? Because that is what it is all about.
    Ron’s teachings are helping me to be more loving on all levels, directly and indirectly.
    Ron’s barriers to love in himself, he did not address, and he became one of the most abberated people I ever heard of. Full of sin is another way of putting it, The sin crystallized into much of how the Church works today, and it opened the door wide to the meanies (people attracted to power without Love).

  271. + 1,000 Music to my ears!

  272. Such a rich blog this one! Such an abundance of teaching and learning!
    There is a short essay in the manual for teachers in the course in miracles that I think so very much applies here. If you’re interested…


  273. Why not train BTs to audit other, newly arrived BTs if that were the case? Why not be a team (if any of this is really true)? I take it the BTs are intelligent and can communicate?

  274. Yes, I didn’t really imply we disagreed. What you said reminded me of other messages/articles/verbal comms I have received about how it’s no good to think you’re not human. So I commented on all that.

    I think LRH and Spyros and Marildi are humans alright. And to try to make those identities OTs can be relatively fruitless. But I think that which perceives and (hopefully) controls those identities isn’t human. And OT has much to do with the degree of differentiation between the human and the mock-uper, cause, thetan, spirit etc.

    And yes, I agree the spirit can heal and preserve the body and modify it — or better create/uncreate it all from scratch? I’m not surprised by what you wrote about LRH’s body.

    I don’t know about LRH’s OT level (Cleared Theta Clear or not) so. But I think that -at least- as 1D he was very well –judging by his texts.

  275. Stay the course Sid! I appreciate an external viewpoint in these times and it seems that those trained in Scientology can often react on a stimulus response basis.

  276. Scott,
    You speak sooth IMHO! Carry on ………..

  277. Which of course was his condition by his own choice.

    The curious part to me is that LRH perhaps could not ‘see’ that he put himself into that lowered condition due to his own inability to confront. Per his own tech, O/Ws produce an inability to see.

    On the simpler side of it he could have said ‘fuck it’ ……the whole family is invited to my house for Christmas! But you have to grow a pair to get there.

  278. May be some scientologist at this time (1952) didn’t agree with the data ? “Theta bodies” was not the truth for them and act like a bad item ? So the data became confidential to avoid a large protest in the communauty ?

  279. Route to Infinity I think

  280. I just realized I can still onley put up 10 minute segments. But I wonder who the industrious Youtube poster is. The person has digitalized a lot of East Grindstead tapes.

  281. Ron’s words regarding suicide as posted by another

    Hubbard states in the policy letter on Repairing Past Ethics Conditions, ” An example is somebody who had decided to commit suicide at some point in his life. He was either at Enemy or Treason at the time.”

  282. Interesting take.

    Ron to DM: DM, get me an auditor! (that’s an order).
    DM: Yes sir!
    Time passes.
    Ron to DM: DM Where is my auditor?
    DM: Um, we can’t find one Ron.
    Ron: Okey Dokey, no problem. I’m good with that.

    What some folks call cognitive-dissonance I call a window into incredible mental-creativity. E.g. DM killed Ron by withholding an auditor from Ron (after Ron requested one).

    That is some serious mental-creativity right there. Perhaps a silver lining in an otherwise very dark cloud called cognitive-dissonance.

  283. (To this and the below) – You are right. It is difficult to do the right thing and help instead of obey. It requires a shift of altitude, and it requires altitude of your own. You have to be there and see the correct situation as it is now – in the case of Ron, we have a man who documented all of Scientology who at the end of his life, felt the need to zap himself out of here. I know Ron was a very determined guy – I applaud Sarge for doing what he did which was to create a machine to zap and jolt loudly without causing Ron’s desired effect.

    But, all that aside, I believe we should be free to do what we want to do without do-gooders interfering. We somehow created this end-of-life story of Ron as victim – I don’t think he was.

  284. Cool. I was just wondering if there was a passage in the tape that you wanted to point out in particular. I haven’t listened to the full tape this time around – but it starts off well.

  285. “How can LRH be PTS?” How not? The brunt all all the crazy experiments he tried getting Scientology in order weighed him down pretty hard.

    Great story. I knew people who did that when they were kids and became Scientologists because it validated it. I personally have experienced telepathy and a bit of remote viewing over the years. And the “disturbance in the force” effect when a loved one was in trouble. And communications/impressions from the recently deceased.
    Telepathy exists. It just does. I have never seen a valid “Scientific” explanation for it, and the expectations that skeptics try to set for telepathy, like it is a spiritual phone call, set up experiments to fail. But I have experienced at and others have too.

  286. I remember that – I am sure it was on a tape somewhere. That reminds me of one of David Johnson’s favorite explanations of the thetan occupying a doll-body – the thetan was a sort of glove-shaped being residing in the doll body. He loved he “glove” concept.
    Dave was my best friend on the BC – I was sad to hear that he passed away in 2002.
    I remember a BC tape where Ron talks about the progression of Meat society to Doll Body society – body parts were replaced, replaced, replaced over time until there were only doll bodies. We are seeing that progression now – and somewhere in the next hundred years, I believe we will see consciousness in a mechanical body. It will be a confusing time, for sure. We already have movies about it.

  287. That is so true. We can never really know what is going on inside someone’s head – and the story is always colored by the person telling it.

  288. For me, OT III is one level, and you audit it until you are done. This explosion and obsession with BTs post OT III I think was an error. Certainly the idea of going years and years is ludicrous to me.

    I am certain that entities I encountered were not me, nor were they my creations. However, there is a finite number of everything, and eventually, you run out. There is such a thing as being “done.” The concept of dub-in is as old as Book 1 – older, actually. People will invent stuff to run if they are hounded about it. This does not, to me, mean that there was never anything there. Just that there is nothing left.

  289. “One of the most difficult things in the world, is to tell somebody who thinks he’s a body that he is himself.”

    This is _the_ fundamental concept of Scientology. Really, everything else (good) about Scientology, flows from this one concept. A materialist will never agree with any concept of Scientology.

  290. I can tell you how to shoot a rabbit. That does not mean I am going to shoot you.

  291. Anons?
    Ron: “The work was free. Keep it so.”

  292. AMEN to both of your posts above!!!

  293. The “power” of Scientology, is simply the power of any conversation. In practice, this is the entire activity. An auditor and a P.C. having a conversation. Or listening to Hubbard’s viewpoints on life. That too is a conversation, when you read.

    I can believe conversation has no power to influence some people against “truths” they already have in place. But this is not a universal truth and the power of conversation is recognized as beneficial in much of social intercourse.

    Seeing life from other people point of view is considered an adventure by anyone who takes pleasure in reading.

    The “power” in Scientology is simple exchange of ideas. And that is the only true power worth living for. Otherwise, have bother to have a life?

  294. LOL, I see now that my reply to Paolo was non-sequitur! He was talking about LRH’s tone level going up and down (which I only saw as an indicator of his being volatile on the tone scale). At Paolo’s suggestion that LRH was PTS I thought of the bigger, long-term picture. He had some real-life enemies – a matter of public record, which Marty made very clear in his book – i.e. there was a powerful concerted effort by the AMA, the APA and various government agencies to crush Scientology.

    The tech for suppression includes auditing and that was my point – LRH should have had auditing long before he became physically ill. You are 100% right that the medical condition was a crucial factor, and the tech in fact requires medical handling for physical illness. As for auditing, the person may not be up to doing the PTS Rundown or the Suppressed Person Rundown but, minimally, assists would have been in order. It’s amazing to me that LRH didn’t follow his own very workable principles and tech. That still blows my mind when I think about it.

  295. These are not affirmations for me Valkov. These are my lifestyle.

  296. What is the reward of the “power” in Scientology? It is only the conversation. The experience of the conversation. I assume anyone posting here or reading here feels there is some benefit to conversation or some rewarding purpose for a conversation, otherwise they would not be here engaging in this social intercourse.

  297. I lay myself on the line with sincerity and interest, I use my own time and offer the gift of truth from my point of view. You choose to discount it all and make nothing of it, by qualifying my sharing as “stimulus response”. Your contribution to ME, is to make nothing of my generosity with social intercourse. This leads me to believe you lean on comfortable assumptions that align with personal purposes that probably differ from mine, from partaking in the social intercourse here. Your purpose to make nothing out make nothing out of something, simply does not harmonize with my purpose to make something out of nothing.
    This may or may not have something to do with stimulus response.

  298. Right, Spyros, I knew that you weren’t implying any disagreement with what I wrote. However, I’m not sure if I would agree with what you wrote about LRH’s spiritual condition in the later years, since he apparently violated so much of those incredibly great texts he wrote.

  299. But I tend to think when people use Scientology datum’s or words or theories to suppress others, this falls more along purpose lines than stimulus response.

  300. That is exactly my point.

  301. You write: “My checking out plans.” Then describe a lifestyle.

  302. George Harrison has a song called “The Art of Dying”. These are policies for influencing our dying experience as well. Our tomorrows are the result of our todays. Our death is a result of how we live our life to a very great degree.

    When life is lived well, according to divine law, the end follows suit.

    A monk friend of mine who died of lung cancer opted for no pain killers. He lived his life so well that at his end he was cause over pain and suffering. That is how Buddhist monks can light there bodies on fire in complete peace. They know Life.

    When one is in control of the life force of the body one is at cause over it’s experiences. Google Paramahansa Yogananda’s death. It is an amazing testimony to one who has mastered life. That is why they are called spiritual masters.

    Mahatma Gandhi had his appendix removed and he opted to have the operation consciously: no anesthesia

    Both these people, my friend and Gandhiji where Yogis.

    And Oracle, I have decided that whatever my demise is will be ok. Death looses it’s sting through spiritual practice. Actually, deep meditation is conscious death. Deep meditation is the practice of bodiless living.

    So when my body meets it’s end it will be familiar territory. In becoming familiar with the spiritual world, loosing the body looses a lot of significance. That is my experience.

  303. The “power” I get from exploring Scientology, is that the conversations I always thought would never be possible, become possible.

    And isn’t that the same pleasure we find in the conversations we have on this blog?

  304. Larry Moore – exactly…

  305. Well, there is this idea that anyone who has to confront death is a victim. All deathees are victims. Victims of what? Loosing an identity? I think these matters are easier for women to bear, as they change wardrobe and personal style often.

    I have passed by people in the supermarket on a week end that I had a business meeting with a few days before. They didn’t even recognize me in sweat pants with no make up away from the office. I just looked like another middle aged hag digging through the vegetable section.

    Then there were the Scientologists I bumped into in L.A. after leaving the Sea Org, that went speechless to see me in regular clothes. Just, speechless. Then, the awkwardness of how to deal with me, as someone just like them. What to say, how to act. From military to mini skirt seemed to make people even more curious! Just changing my hair color or my haircut has literally ARCXen people.

    Women I think are more aware of this identity issue and how flexible it all can be. Making new people at whim (childbirth) , also gives one some better reality on these gone and back again revolving glass doors. For every person grieving at a funeral, there is a new family celebrating that death, in the form of a new life and a new family member as it moves across the galaxy into it’s new beginning. And all the promise that unfolds before it.

  306. Valkov, I’m the last person to disrespect LRH. I love auditing tech with a passion. I just can’t make HIS story align with the OT story and I have a problem with that…

  307. Scott,
    Saying sorry when it is right, can be greater than pearls of wisdom.
    And so is the effect it creates.
    Thank you!

  308. ‘Intention to succumb’ sounds like trouble indeed!

  309. I read what I read and ack it –sometimes I resist too, but mostly ack 😛 What Ron’s cook and other people say about LRH is what they say –positive or negative. If it’s truth for them, it’s from their own point of perception. If you asked about me you might get positive and negative feedback. How are you going to get the truth about me, while during processing I try to find my own truth myself? 😛

    Ultimately, I don’t blame the COSes demise on LRH, because while in SCN I could point out SCN materials that countered some people’s suppressive attitude. Maybe if I was some admin staff I’d know otherwise, but the SCN I studied wasn’t the SCN I experienced –often it was the opposite. If LRH quit on SCN, it doesn’t sound too great, but it doesn’t make him wrong either. SCN was thousands of people, why put the blame on the person without whom nothing would exist? I quit on the COS too, and they blame me of course. I’m not feeling guilty.

    If I put blame, I’d put it on those that harmed me and others, including myself. I never met the guy. He never attacked me overtly nor covertly. The ‘evil cult’ is no excuse for me nor anybody else to mess others up.

  310. See my words below Oracle. 🙂

  311. My method of discarding this body Oracle will be: conscious withdrawal from my central nervous system(5 senses)

    By conscious withdrawal of the life force from their 5 sources of communication with matter one can slip out of the body at will when has practiced that degree of detachment. When the ego bound soul is identified with the body as itself, fear of death and unfamiliarity with death is certain. When one can consciously withdraw the life force from seeing with eyes, tasting, feeling on skin, hearing with ears, smelling with nose and direct the attention to the inner spiritual realms, the transition is like a good meditation. That is why it is called mahasamadhi. Maha means great and samadhi means ecstatic oneness with spirit. It is considered a final meditation. The only difference is we don’t come back anymore to that particular body.

    In that state of spiritual attunement there are teachers as well to great me. Teachers that have been with me for many years. Death is really a beautiful thing. Freedom, joy and separation from an old dying body is wonderful. Meeting our friends, loved ones and teachers is a celebration.

    This world has a distorted view of death. That is because the majority of people don’t have the interest in spiritual liberating practices, procedures, theories, wisdom etc.

    When Death comes I will be ready. Because death never comes.

  312. Lovely poetic affirmations. Were I you, I would print these out to be read as my Eulogy. 🙂 That will lift your friends and family, possibly any pets you may have, away from any sense of loss.

  313. Well, there’s a novel thought! I’m not sure if they’re up to being trained how to audit – or even if they’re capable of being in comm with each other. But assuming some of them are, here’s a simple piece of “tech” to teach them that I think would basically make auditing of each other possible:

    “Any two people in constant association who will conduct themselves according to the Auditor’s Code will soon find not only that they are clear or almost as a group of two but also that their knowledge of, and joy in human relationships has been immeasurably increased.” (*Notes on the Lectures*)

    Instead of “human relationships,” make that “spiritual relationships. But in essence, that’s all auditing is – good communication. And isn’t that a great reference for the rest of us too!

    Btw, someone who has extensively researched and audits in this area, and also trains others how to audit and be in harmony with their BTs, is David St. Lawrence. Here’s the link to one of his “Spiritual Rescue Technology” articles: http://spiritual-rescue-technology.com/?page_id=109

  314. How are you a better man now?

  315. There are a lot of accounts from many people, Marty included, that point to something like my stated speculations about Ron’s situation vis-vis Miscavige, Broeker, et al. Maybe you ought to try reading them. Start with Marty’s last book. And also, look into Ron’s state of mind and physical health in his last years. You know he had at least one stroke in the late 1970s, right?

    Or is that too much cognitive dissonance for you to deal with?

  316. Yes, it is difficult. However, we are talking about his “story” AS A HUMAN BEING, aren’t we? I’m quite sure one of his later goals was to establish a rich and powerful world-wide “catholic” Church of Scientology that would be difficult to take down.

    My point is, to become human, one chooses to “not-know” and thus creates randomity. In this case, I think Ron may have seen in Miscavige a possibly fitting tool who would further that establishment of the CoS.

    By some accounts, Ron bade CBR as early asthe 1970s, to be prepared to go off and create a “free zone” outside the CoS. I think Ron knew things could go wrong. The thing is, the game had grown to widespread for one man to micromanage, and Ron was getting older. So he set things up as best he could in the time he had and with the advices he had, to be self-perpetuating.

    Once he set it all in motion and the bull was released from the chute all he could do is try to ride it out, hanging on for dear life and hoping Miscavige really would be able to produce the “All Clear” which would at least allow him to be with his family, which I think was his fondest wish, and still involved with the CoS too. We know how that turned out, don’t we?

    I think in fact Ron’s ability to think with and deal with contingencies was remarkable, demonstrating a great ability to span his attention. I think what he was able to accomplish in his lifetime, considering he didn’t really start until he was almost 40 years old, is nothing short of remarkable.

    If the supposedly omnipotent God Himself somehow allows, or cannot do anything about, all the suffering and evil that exists on Earth, how in the world can anyone expect Ron, or anyone else no matter how “OT”, to control and manage it all to a perfect outcome? Didn’t God in fact die on the cross, as a human being?

    Really,this post and thread ties right in with Marty’s previous post about Jesus, don’t you think?

  317. Yep. The bigger the being and the bigger the game he is attempting to play, the more thoroughly he can paint himself into a corner. With both hands tied behind his back to boot.

  318. Wake up.

    Perhaps LRH could very well see that he had put himself in that position by his own choice(s). Perhaps that is what was making him so despondent at the end – knowing he had put himself in this position and suffering ill health to boot, there really was no good way out for him except to die. I imagine he knew by then that Miscavige was not going to get that All Clear for him.

    Life is not like those online card games where if you make a misplay, you can ask for an “UNDO” and take it back in order to play another card. Or like the video games where you can simply reboot and start over again whenyou get”killed”. Well, life may be like that, but you have to actually DIE to get that reboot and you don’t get to restart as your same identity with what you have learned. That in fact was a major goal of the Bridge, to achieve a state where you could “take it with you” – the experiences of you lifetime would be retained when you came back and you would be wiser for that.

    Being 68+ years old, I can very well see the poor decisions I made and I very well know there is no “time machine” that will enable me to go back and redo it all, or even any part of it.

    So much more so I think, Ron could see exactly how he painted himself into that corner. And that his medical problems really did signal the end of his life.

  319. Brian, from your post it appears to me that you have no understanding of the significance and use of the Conditions.

  320. LRH did have a purpose, which he was strung along by Miscavige, Broeker et al, into hoping would be fulfilled. Miscavige was charged with providing LRH with an “All Clear”, which was code for a resolution of all the legal cases against LRH, so LRH could come out of “hiding” and resume his life.

    I believe Miscavige had little or no intention of delivering an All Clear to LRH, and likely was looking forward to the day LRH died, for reasons that are obvious now. Thus Miscavihge was not really competent nor capable of delivering the All Clear.

    Really, there are plenty of indications of this kind of scenario in Marty’s book, as well as other sources, including comments and posts on this blog, as well as on scientology-cult.com. Inform yourself, and you won’t need to guess so much.

  321. windhorse, perhaps 1977-1978?

  322. And are you sad that Jesus, who was actually God, reduced himself to dying on a cross along with a couple of thieves? Perhaps there are lessons about life in all these stories.

  323. It’s more of a general thing.

  324. Curiosus: “That is possibly an indicator of the quantum nature of mental energies.”

    In fact, what you’ve written seems to say that mental energy is no different from physical energy – which is exactly what LRH stated In *Fundamentals of Thought*:

    “Whether the facsimile in the mind is received while the thetan is awake or unconscious, the resulting mass of the energy picture is energy just as you see energy in an electric light bulb or from the flames of a fire. At one time it was considered that mental energy was different from physical energy. In Scientology it has been discovered that mental energy is simply a finer, higher level physical energy.”

    It seems to me that we are all connected through the “mental energy” of the theta universe, where there isn’t even Six Degrees of Separation! There’s none. And I can’t help but wonder if this connection through energy is the basis of the “oneness” people perceive. And yet at the same time. the thetan exists as a separate individual because the thetan is basically a static which has assumed a viewpoint..

    In *Scientology 8-8008*, LRH talks about “a gradient scale of beingness, from the zero-infinity of theta to the solidity of matter.”

  325. But you sure did shoot down that interpretation – a succinct bull’s eye! 🙂

  326. LOL, that’s funny about you acking your own posts. 😀 More power to you.

    And I’ll give you a big ack on this one. Well said! 🙂

  327. Letting go, this is a rich thought about the BT’s co-audit, Flag will be working on a way to market this to the public. Talk about endless rundowns. I think the Public person will have to go into a solo session, and act as their own C/S. The trick is getting the BT sessionable and willing to confront. If the Public person cannot confront their own life and thus assigns cause over their condition to the BT, imagine the Q&A the BT will have on having to erase itself. Like us, the BT is trying to create an effect. Expect lots of CI on getting into session. . But I can see this is a money maker and there are plenty of folks who would be willing to try it. The OTV111 who remotely cured Mitterand of cancer comes to mind. Lets the BT’s pull their own weight. Like a colon cleanse for the spirit. Let them flush themselves out of your body. You should be in marketing. This is truly original. Thanks for the thought. Deserves to be dropped in the FLB suggestion box. The WHY on global clearing has finally been found.

  328. If it all starts from ‘potential to be’, then I can’t possibly ack anybody else other than myself 😛

    Thanx 🙂

  329. Thank you for your kind words Oracle

  330. Not really, but if it’s true for you lol

  331. well if you are all spirits from another planet, it means you are all geasts on my planet as I am an earth spirit, So behave yourselves in my realm.

  332. Just a comment: I did say “generally”, not “always”.

    And you can run out most of the this lifetime engrams but they are rarely the source of any deep seated ruin. It can key it out and as with any key-out it may or may not key back in again. I’m not invalidating Dianetics – just speaking from thousands of hours of auditing experience.

  333. “Didn’t God in fact die on the cross, as a human being? Really,this post and thread ties right in with Marty’s previous post about Jesus, don’t you think?”

    Hmmm, Jesus dying on the cross, Ron dying for lack of an auditor….ok, that’s a wrap. That explains pretty much everything. lol.

    Damn creative I say.

  334. Am I allowed to write here?


  335. George, at risk of sounding contentiously nit-picky and preachy, I must say this:

    Potential cannot itself be annihilated because it is just a word pointing to nothing that actually exists, it points to “emptiness”. What can be annihilated is “clinging”, but one is not clinging to potential – “one” is clinging to the idea or thought that one can continue to exist as an identity in some way, because of “potential”. In other words, one is somehow still clinging to the idea that “self” ultimately does exist. It is the clinging that one clings to, and it is that clinging that one can let go of. One cannot let go of “potential”, one can only let go of one’s thoughts/ideas that one is clinging to, and then the clinging itself Enough said?

    This is an “error” I have seen more than once in interpretations of Buddhism; not saying this is an error you partake of, just that in trying to put it into words, one can momentarily miss the essence of it.

    And “self” does actually exist too, but in a limited way, as part of existence, and necessarily partakes of “ignorance” (not-knowing).

    To be truly free, it might be said that one must go beyond “mind”, which is saying that one must go beyond words, because words are tools of the mind(s), including the rational analytical mind. It is words that one clings to; Korzybski’s phrase “The map is not the territory” I think applies here. “Words” refer to the “map”; in the absence of clinging, no words remain.

  336. Hi Valkov, how are you today?

    Aside from my lack of understanding, what do you consider this quote from Ron to mean?

  337. Cat Daddy, I like you anyway. And I liked your “lol”. 🙂

  338. Some where too self determined for Hubbard

  339. Nice post V. You may have noticed I’m interested in this topic hehe.

    I’d like to add a cog of mine that ‘nothing’ or ‘potential’ is not empty space either. I used to imagine it as such and it bothered me –it could even get spooky. Empty space is a thought and more than that, so it isn’t nothing. Also, there is no nothing in MEST!!!!!!!!!! Black space is way more than empty space and way way more than nothing.

    You said: ‘To be truly free…’ I think the nothing cannot be anything but free. When we deal with the body’s healing and mental healing and GPM handling, we take care of the MEST self. I think you implied it. But I wanted to make it clearer, that the original being doesn’t change.

  340. Very funny, Hiram. 😀 But I think Letting Go was sincerely looking at these BTs as fellow thetans – part of the 7th dynamic. And giving LRH the benefit of some people’s doubt, he developed a process to benefit the 7th dynamic – not only in terms of the pre-OT solo auditor becoming free of the effects of aberrated BTs but also to put the BTs in good enough case shape that they would now be free to leave. Nevertheless, I’ve learned from the various comments that some people feel their BTs actually like being connected to them, and those people like having their BTs as part of a spiritual group. This topic offers great lessons in different realities!

  341. Hey Valkov, no nit-picking. 🙂

  342. ‘Dark matter’ as far as I know is a relatively new subject. But I was reading about it 12 years ago in some early 50s LRH lecture –the topic was that there is no empty space in MEST.

  343. Larry, you really are a hoot!

  344. To me the quote basically confirms what I have been saying, that Ron found himself to be in lower conditions towards some of his dynamics and it was bad enough from his viewpoint that he wished he was dead.

    Could happen to anyone.

  345. We spirits are meant to frolic together.

  346. I think TO means she would not go to you for tech advice. Nor would I. For starters, I would go straight to the horse’s mouth.

  347. Of course the definitions of good and evil are “modified by viewpoint”. In traditional Japanese culture, suicide is not only accepted, in some situations it is expected.

    “Honor killings” in some cultures are another example of the wide range of what can be considered “good” or “right” in other cultures.

  348. Let me amend this – a consensus eventually emerged that Jesus was God.

  349. Now that I see the reply chain, I meant that comment for Flo, not you CD. “Ron said he can hypnotize us!” does not mean “Ron hypnotized us!”. I can never understand why, when someone explains a technology, some people think the explainer is going to actually do it. I can explain how to hack into your computer. That does not mean I will do it.

  350. I think if Ron had stuck to the original principles he had stated in the early 1950s, the outcome may have been very different. But he didn’t, he reversed himself in some ways as Marty has quite adequately pointed out in his first book.

  351. It does tie in well Valkov. I just wish the man had used his own tech…but I understand all the contingencies.

  352. “When an auditor is changing things remotely in your universe, do you feel it?”

    Are you saying we all are the BT of someone ? 😉

  353. Valkov, isn’t the word ‘perhaps’ a wonderful word? To me it is the subtle, softer more gentle version of ‘what if.’ While ‘what if’ is the syringe and needle that injects a foreign possibility into a belief system, ‘perhaps’ is a topical salve applied on the outside allowing the possibility to slowly sink in. Once a ‘what if’ is perceived it can instantly cause the defense mechanisms of a belief system to go into red alert mode and thereby thwart any foreign possibility from being received.. ‘Perhaps,’ though, more often than not, seems to be able to walk through the security gates without having to show its papers.

    Perhaps Valkov, life is but a dream. And if life is but a dream death must surely be also. Perhaps none of ‘that’ ever really happened just as none of ‘this’ isn’t really happening either. You counseled Cooper Kessel to wake up. Perhaps we would all be better off if we were to wake up. However, what if we’re dreaming that we are awake…what then?

  354. “NOTHING is EVER what it appears to be…” Mark, I neglected to mention that, by all means, ‘nothing’ includes me. What I appear to be is constantly changing.

  355. Speaking of science that is not “mest-limited”, as I’m sure you know there are a number of scientists highly involved in that – like Tom Campbell (author of *My Big TOE”, a Theory of Everything, which has consciousness as its basis) and John Hagelin, who has a PHD in Consciousness.

    “John Hagelin is an American particle physicist…Hagelin was a researcher at the European Center for Particle Physics (CERN) and the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center (SLAC), and is now Professor of Physics and Director of the Institute of Science, Technology and Public Policy at Maharishi University of Management. He has conducted research into unified field theory and the Maharishi Effect…” http://books.google.com/books/about/John_Hagelin.html?id=J0BwcAAACAAJ

  356. Thanks for the reply. I agree, he was in bad mental shape at the end.

    And maybe before that.

    But I disagree that it could happen to anyone.

    Valkov, would you ask someone to help kill you, knowing that if someone did they could be an accessary to murder ?

    I respect that you are loyal to Ron Valkov. I honor loyalty. It is a beautiful trait.

    But sometimes I feel, just possibly, some people’s affinity and loyalty to Ron, as someone who has helped them in life, does not let them see certain realities of Ron’s.

    Do you think that may be possible?

    It must be hard for you guys to be put through this good Ron bad Ron gauntlet, after such a life of dedication to him and his philosophy.

    Your loyalty is honorable.

  357. Always someone else to blame for his condition. ALWAYS

    Psyches, SPs, priests, governments, Mayo, Miscavige, Roos, Interpol, bts, clusters, Broeker, Communists, PTses, Xenu, Farsec, AMA, FDA, journalists, implanters. On and on with blame.

    We ourselves are the only cause of our condition. Isn’t that what cause over life was supposed to mean?

    So much justification for why he suffered! Always someone else. Always

  358. For the first time in my life I read I shouldn’t assign cause to others by LRH…unless I wanted trouble.

    He did talk ill of psychiatrists and Markabians and others. It doesn’t mean he was being their victim. If somebody commits overts continuously in present time, it’s not bad to report it and warn others. Don’t all critics do that, or supposedly do that anyway?

  359. Then I think “we” need a locational.

  360. Brian, just once I wish you would respond to what I actually said/wrote/posted, instead of putting up these imaginary straw men you stick the label of “Valkov” on, and then imagine you are having a conversation with me.
    Perhaps tostart you might go through this thread and read all my posts in particular, to get a real idea of where I’m coming from. There aren’t that many. Because you sure haven’t got it yet. That would seem to be a gauntlet you have yet to embark upon.

    You will not perceive reality until you abandon your dichotomous ideas.

    I am not being forced through any gauntlet as regards LRH. That gauntlet is way behind me.

  361. And by the way Brian, you still haven’t responded to my question of where you stand on “right to die” issues. Do you believe people who are terminally ill and in pain ought to be forced to live against their own wishes, by preventing them from killing themselves?

    What do you think about “assisted suicide”, or “physician assisted suicide”??

  362. Tara, I don’t know if there was any appropriate tech available to him, in that situation he was in by that time. I really don’t think Miscavige and Broeker were helpful to him, or would have facilitated him receiving any real help. I imagine it was discussed. I think they wanted him gone. And eventually, he wanted himself gone, too. He wasn’t getting any help, no rehab after his stroke(s), nothing.

  363. Anyone has a right to do whatever they want.

    This is not a ‘rights’ issue. In religious or spiritual terms it is a frowned on in every religion.

    This is an issue that speaks to the efficacy of Ron’s philosophy.

    If you, Valkov, see nothing questionable about a teacher who claims to have the answers to freeing us from suffering and yet chooses electrocution as a valid means of alleviating that suffering – then yours and my definition of a spiritual teacher are vastly different.

    You and I differ on the qualifications of such a title.

    Studying the life and death of many great sages paints a different picture.

    Making the argument for Dr. Kavorkian does not flatter your position in my opinion.

    Thanks Valkov for being clear on your position.

  364. I think that Marty is doing a great job of auditing Scientology as a group, and as an organization.


  365. Yes Valkov…a locational! Indeed, I do believe that a locational process is exactly what ‘we’ are giving to ourselves. And while the variations of forms the process may take is most likely well beyond our current state of comprehension, the content is always the same. In one way or another, we are locating ourselves in a dream that we have for so very long (in illusory time) have been pretending, in earnest, to be real. I have no doubts whatsoever that there will come a point for each of us in our journey where we will completely locate ourselves out of all unreality, out of all dreams and literally be in the KNOW.

    Marty’s blog, in its entirety, for me, serves as a most efficacious locational process.

  366. Someone has said that the scientologists are the BTs of Hubbard.

    But that is not what I mean.

    From the success stories from the PTS/SP RD and Solo NOTs, it seems that when a shared incident is audited, the charge blows for both terminals.

    If so, the other terminal (not audited) should feel some kind of inexplicable release, or if he is good enough, maybe he could sense that someone has touched his universe, that was my question.

  367. Spyros I am responding to Valkov’s Justification for Ron’s end of life (electrocution) state by blaming Miscavige/Broeker etc.

    And I do understand that he “pulled in” a crazy person (Miscavige) to be his connection to the world and that Miscavige manipulated some communications.

    That was Ron’s choice, to chose a psychopath to be his life line to Scientology and declare as suppressive his close confidant in all things Scientology: Mayo

    Maybe Ron chose Miscavige because he saw a ruthless tyrant to do his bidding. He did choose Miscavige and maybe he meant to choose him.

    Or if he did not see who was before him and did not choose to have a tyrant represent him then the question is why did he not evaluate human behavior accurately? Isn’t that what Tone Scale courses were meant to address?

    It would seem that Ron’s ability to evaluate accurately the true state of persons in front of him was less than John F Kennedy Jr. who stated after meeting MIscavige only once, “That guy is a piece of work.”

    So here are two facts: Ron chose a psychopath to represent him and chose electrocution as a means to alleviate his suffering.

    Ron did these things to himself by choices he made. It being done to him by others keeps the blame always outside.

    I have never resolved my suffering by blaming others. Blaming others surrenders one’s power to change.

    Blaming others is a loosing battle as far as resolving problems are concerned.

    And resolving life’s problems is what Ron was teaching us.

    This is part of the cognitive disconnect in my opinion. A difficult one for those who believe in Ron to resolve.

  368. burnedbutnotbitter

    I do like all these posts, read the whole thread, but I stand by what I said.

  369. Got that, Brian. Ever since I left the COS and been reading online about it, I have read various scenarios about what might have happened to it and to LRH etc. Some say that LRH wasn’t around during the 80s and that the ‘LRH’ that granted authority to Dave wasn’t LRH. Such people consider pre-1980 texts to be invalid too.

    Considering the legal enturbulence, I wouldn’t think that it was a good time for LRH to tranfer his position as head of SCN to somebody else. Also, that secrecy and hidden data line that LRH used DM (or others) as messengers to the orgs etc is more than suspicious. And Mayo….a senior C/S that LRH trusted and granted the ‘tech hat’ (?!) and who invalidated the state of Clear? Sounds like rubbish.

    Anyway, that’s all data and data evaluations. I don’t know what happened. I don’t take all (if anything) that I read about what happened back then ‘for granted’. And the story that LRH turned into a psychiatrist and decided to electric-shock his body, or that he got victimised by the authorities in a way or another, sound a bit too strange –even in terms of logic. As the press and maybe some authorities too were after LRH since the early beginning of Dianetics. If they could, they would had stopped him back then.

    What I can tell by experience is that many people I’ve known that are trained under DM’s authority have gross MUs and ignorance about some basic SCN. I assume as time passes they know less and less. DM pretends to continue LRH’s philosophy, but not really. DM and his likes like to show LRH refferences (usually a couple of sentences) to pretend they apply LRH, while in many cases they do and put others to do the opposite. That’s 1,1. If I can tell, I’m sure the inventor of the tone scale could tell too.

  370. Another interesting view: isn’t it fascinating that Ron warred against SPs and one is now in charge of his church.

    And isn’t it fascinating that Ron warred with all his being against electro shock therapy as a means of treating mental suffering and then chose to be electrocuted.

    And isn’t it fascinating that he warred against “medicos” and was treated with vistaril at end of life.

    These inconsistencies are quite telling of something.

    What can one glean from this?

  371. Brian, what I glean from this is that in a world of perception every coin has two sides (two expressions of the same energy). LRH made choices that kept him on the ‘coin’ so to speak. I suspect that when a being chooses to stay on the coin that while there they will continue to flip back and forth between the two sides. I believe that LRH did create the opportunity and means for himself to leave the coin and, take anybody else that wanted to go with him. But it is obvious that he chose not to avail himself of the opportunity he created. And that is what I find fascinating.

  372. There is so much folklore about l ron. But essentially it’s all mind. He probably ended up in a mental hell. For all his cleverness he forgot the highest vibration is DIVINITY. LOVE .

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