Crossing Over

There comes a time when it well behooves one to review the bidding in the game called life.

What follows are some thoughts that some might find useful in such a review.

I have used the term ‘construct’ many times on this blog and in my books.   This is the definition I have mainly been using:


1 b :  a working hypothesis or concept <the unconscious was a construct that came from the daily effort to understand patients>

To date I have used the term mainly in reference to the space opera scenarios inculcated into Scientologists at the upper levels of the Scientology.

I believe that one reason some Scientologists have so hysterically reacted to the idea of considering such indoctrinations as constructs is that they are implanted to believe constructs to be unalterable truths from the get-go of their Scientology experiences.   Consequently, they are living in a sort of parallel universe; an agreed upon and reinforced one that requires such firm policies and notions as ‘disconnection’, ‘squirreling’, ‘treason and enemy conditions’ and the like to protect its constructs from analysis against data of comparable magnitude .  By adopting such self-constricting, voluntary-ignorance vows,  Scientologist can be thoroughly dissociated from observation outside of their firmly believed constructs.

With that introduction, I am going float an idea that is liable to shock the sensibilities of the most liberal minded Scientologist.  That is that just about everything one learns in Dianetics and Scientology is a  construct; a working hypotheses or concept to hold in order to practice a ritual.

In fact, the very first unalterable law one learns is so thoroughly implanted as unquestionable fact that what I am about to impart is pretty much guaranteed to lose me friends and readers.   But, I’ll go ahead and share the idea, confident that it will be of some service to some who have made honest efforts to integrate, evolve and transcend their Scientology experiences.

All of Dianetics and Scientology from one’s first introduction through the highest of OT Levels are utterly dependent upon this first construct.   I will be the first to vouch for its workability to a certain level.  I will also be the first to state that if not evolved and transcended from, continued adherence and reverence to it is the very glue holding a debilitating addiction in firm control of the individual.

That construct is the equation expressed as a fundamental law of the universe even three years before the publication of Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health.  The equation is “the individual is lesser than bank (the reactive or subconscious mind).  Auditor plus individual are greater than bank .”

If one were allowed freedom to experience the ‘state’ of Clear (the long-held goal of Dianetics and Scientology) one could not help but to soon realize that upon attaining Clear.   But, that is not allowed in Scientology.  Instead, the equation is re-stated with a great deal of false promise and threat of eternal damnation upon the attainment of Clear.

Some people who have moved on through solo auditing will understandably chafe “that’s bullshit, when I solo audit it is me against the ‘bank’.”  And here is where the thought stopping theater of the absurd begins.  First, what bank?  It was supposed to have vanished at attainment of Clear.  The reaction from the die-hard Scientologist of course is that he feels betrayed by this question because it is the ‘bank’ he has vowed never to converse about.  So, the conversation ends there with some.   And the solo-auditor will assiduously go on confronting the bank that no one can speak about, directed every step of the way by his solo C/S (case supervisor), solo D of P (director of processing), Master at Arms (Ethics Officer), ad infinitum.  In other words, it is no longer ‘auditor plus individual is greater than bank’, it is more like ‘individual plus C/S, plus D of P, plus MAA, plus the Sea Organization, and the 5th Sector cavalry might have a fighting chance against the inter-galactic forces of evil that constitute what is wrong him.’

Few, it seems, stop to contemplate and recognize that the further one goes, the more formidable, and interminable his baggage becomes in Scientology.   Fewer still, it seems, recognize the construct nature of the fundamental law that served as the glue to addict him or her to cult life in the first place.

‘The bank is great than individual’ or ‘the individual is lesser than the bank’ is an invented construct.  It has its uses.  But, it is not a fact.

Those who have achieved Clear in Scientology might learn a handy lesson from the man L. Ron Hubbard once claimed to be the architect of the heritage of Scientology, and once claimed to be himself, Siddhartha Gautauma.    The Buddha has been reported as passing along this little parable:

A man walking along a highroad sees a great river, its near bank dangerous and frightening, its far bank safe.  He collects sticks and foliage, makes a raft, paddles across the river, and reaches the other shore . Now suppose that, after he reaches the other shore, he takes the raft and puts it on his head and walks with it on his head wherever he goes.  Would he be using the raft in an appropriate way?  No;  a reasonable man will realize that the raft has been very useful to him in crossing the river and arriving safely on the other shore, but that once he has arrived, it is proper to leave the raft behind and walk without it . This is using the raft appropriately.

In the same way, all truths should be used to cross over; they should not be held on to once you have arrived.  You should let go of even the most profound insight or the most wholesome teaching; all the more so, unwholeseome teachings.




413 responses to “Crossing Over

  1. Roger from Switzerland Thought

    Thank You 🙂

  2. Nope — you haven’t alienated me, Marty. Am tracking with you.

    The entire concept of a bank IS a construct. A rather cleaver and handy way to show an individual that HE isn’t his obscurations, emotions, upsets .

    The Solo Auditing construct is insidious because as any practicing buddhist will tell you — “thoughts” are endless … you simply quite your mind and learn not to attach to them … (simple explanation – apologies to buddhist theorists)

    BUT scientology IS a workable tool/raft that serves one as long as he doesn’t think he IS the raft. And definitely puts it down once the other shore is reached.

    scientology ceased to be workable when it became hard core dogma. As it became more fundamental it ceased to be a usable raft to help it’s members. It became the means to place a human being into stocks or pillories, not just as punishment but for public humiliation.

    As I continue my own personal path also mindful of what came before …

    I’m thinking that scientology is at this moment in time at a PERFECT place to shed the dogma, keep the baby while throwing out the bath water, give one and all an unconditional amnesty and perhaps open it’s door WIDE to other faiths to come practice within the ENORMOUS buildings the members have purchased.

    And perhaps for the first time since LRH constructed the EIGHT DYNAMICS invite its member to continue with their childhood faith, OR learn about other faiths. Afterall, the one dynamic that LRH didn’t construct too much dogma about was the EIGHTH Dynamic.

    I mean EVEN non-Catholics are embracing this new “modern” Pope — full of promise, full of non-judgement …

    Stranger things have happened throughout history.


  3. On the road so not much time for a more thoughtful response (like Windhorse’s). Did however want to add my “amen”. You have very well clarified and expressed the thoughts and ideas I’ve mulled around.

  4. Since I was first exposed to the Scientology Axioms by a friendly park ranger, I’ve had a hunch that something in the ballpark of what you say above would be the ultimate cog.

  5. That’s it, Marty, question everything, leave no stone unturned!

    Apply the data of “How to study scientology” (the formula for understanding) to the highest degree possible.

    Only the honest truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, will set us free.

    Stop parroting.

    Shed the chains of dogma.

    Everyone must use their own minds and learn to think for themselves.

    Nothing is true unless it has been thoroughly evaluated by comparing it to every other datum of comparable magnitude in the known universe, to compute the datum that solves the most problems in the best way possible, for the greatest number of dynamics.

    Build a better bridge.

    If you can’t build a better bridge, you flunked scientology.


  6. oops, instead of “Since” I meant to say “Ever since”


    Marty -BRILLIANT! You have pulled the keystone from the arch. The absurdity is that both the keystone and the arch are delusions. I bought it, and once I paid, it was “in for a penny. in for a pound”. Sorry to mix metaphors. You have really cleared the air with this post, oh wise one.
    But you’re still Ralphie to me.

  8. martyrathbun09

    One of these days, Norton!

  9. Amen, Marty! I am with you on this.

  10. Philosophy, by definition.

  11. gretchen dewire

    Marty, you always hit the nail right on the head. When I first started reading your and Mikes blog, I was just mildly amused, then prety engrossed. I just finished reading ” A piece of blue sky” and My billion year contract” and now I am really pissed off. I know there is some value in the lower grades to be had, but my god . I am actually glad I left befor the indoctrination into the OT levels. I did however donate enough to be patron of the IAS, stupid me” and I still have money on account in various places but i dont want anything to do with the church. Thanks for all you do and I am 100% behind Monique.

  12. I get the concepts and agree. To me, after many years of reflection, it seems “axiomatic” to me that the way to total freedom cannot lead into a third-dynamic prison that enslaves — unless one re-emerges on the other side. The way out is the way through.

  13. After reading your post a couple of weeks ago regarding your conversation with “Sarge” I was completely and totally validated in my suspicion about the bridge… Ron drove himself crazy believing all of which you mention here and much more….for me? Complete liberation! Thank you! 🙂

  14. “…But, that is not allowed in Scientology.  Instead, the equation is re-stated with a great deal of false promise and threat of eternal damnation upon the attainment of Clear.”
    Exactly! And this created a disconnect and invalidation of the state of Clear and confusion…then grabbing the stable datum of KSW1 then handing causation over to the powers that be so I could be fixed. Catch 22. Vicious, never-ending cycle, all from a point of effect. Dragging the raft over dirt for miles and miles…

  15. “First, what bank? It was supposed to have vanished at attainment of Clear.”

    This what I asked myself when I read Dianetics. I looked around and so people around me who “attained the state of Clear” still getting auditing. It was explained by Dynamics, but that is bullshit. So what I figured out (my construct if you wish) was that once you had the Clear Cognition which is the real state of Clear, you can now handle the bank yourself. I believe this is in concert with Buddhism. I believe this was also recognized by LRH. However, people that can handle their own case do not pay a lot of money, so all the other baggage was added. To boast, scare tactics were used on how dangerous this case was. Voila, give us your money and we will protect you from the monsters.

  16. It didn’t take me long after escaping the Sea Org that I could see that plenty of other people succeeded in life (this life, on this planet, at this time) in many different ways without any clue about Scientology. I’d been “in” since about 21 years old, and I didn’t have much knowledge of the outside world. Then spending 34 years in the indoctrination erased anything I had already observed about “real life.” So it was both refreshing and also amazing to me that people made lots of money (LOTS!) and had families and enjoyed things about their lives waaaaaay more than I had for those 34 years. I didn’t/couldn’t take a legit vacation except for one honeymoon for 2 days that whole time. Any recreational traveling I did was before I signed up. Any potentially enjoyable event put on for the staff first required practically slave labor work by all those involved to make the event happen, usually overnight the day before so you were too tired to enjoy the short time off.

    But–back to my point. I did find that the “this is the only way” part of the philosophy is BS. That concept relates to some auditing procedures, definitely. At least at this point in time. But not to anything else. And others have been pretty observant about life and people to have written amazing books that bring about great awareness one can use to get through life better.

    Soooo, I may not comment on all these things that you’ve been writing, Marty, mostly because it has been a real “digestive” process for me taking in all this, but in this particular area I’m convinced. Somewhere it became The Law and that’s where it went crazy. Thank you for posting these challenging things and let’s all just…..Look. I think there is still a lot more to see and find.

  17. I remember the goal of Creative Processing, which was to stop focussing on the Bank and to get the person up to the level where he can handle any bank. The problem was that many people ended up creating a bigger bank.

    I don’t know, Marty. Sometimes I wonder what people were studying when they were in the church. I started my first course when I was 12 – the Comm Course – at Scientology Delaware Valley in New Jersey, and was lucky enough to have parents who allowed be to study on through to HSDC completion at 15, and Class IV at 16 (this done at ASHO Day, in 1976).

    The whole point of Scientology was to free the being. The whole idea of “The Bank” and, for that matter, the Overt-Motivator sequence, were indeed constructs – and Ron presented them as such – or at least, I took them as such. They are useful, in that if you address The Bank, you will get results, and because people are the effect of the Overt/Motivator sequence, and so, address it.

    But there is a point when you are DONE addressing it. And I was raised on the idea that you would eventually get to that point. And, with the bridge as it was prior to NOTS, the top was OT VII and people did indeed reach it – and live their lives.

    As for me, I reached that point after OT IV when I realized that it was all handled with OT III. OT IV was a clean-up action and confirmation, for me. Oh sure, I am FAR from the perfect person, but I handled what Scientology could handle when I was done OT III.

    I see people affected by this construct called “Bank” all the time. I see it every day – people reacting to things on in the room, but in their past. People not seeing the world, now, as it is, but seeing ghosts of the past floating in front of their eyes. The joke of it is, they are not really at the effect of their bank, but they are acting like they are. These people could, and would, benefit from auditing properly given. Auditing is good stuff! But, at some point they will be done, and the question is, what then? The question is: Quo Vadis?

    The answer is, for me, to live live well, help people, and create good things.

    Now, I do admit to be being a bit “game-less” when I finished my BC and my OT III. It was the question above: “Now what?” There is no clear answer in Scientology – there is no “now that you ARE over the bridge, here’s what you do to go on your way.” No – there is only David Miscavige, saying, “now you are my slave.”

    You know, I think back to the mission and the days at ASHO “back in the day” and it is amazing to me how something as simple as two people helping each other has turned into such a freaking monster.


  18. I cannot imagine who you would lose now if they have not parted ways with you already.

    From earlier lectures and the R&D series, I understood Scientology to be pliable, something you can mould if you understand it. But then it became untouchable, sacrosanct, holy and venerated. With that crown on one’s head does one become arrogant.

    I would like to cross that river, even if the means be life itself. Then I’d like to possess the ease of letting it go, no regrets, looking forward.

  19. I am loving where you are going with your blog. It is interesting to me to see someone evolve, as you have, even within the last year or so. I can’t wait to see where you go with this.

  20. May the spirit of your words be received in the spirit they are given.

    Ladies and Gentlemen: there is so so much road ahead. So much knowledge, wisdom, love and freedom to be had.

    The dream of spiritual freedom is real. The tools for finding truth are so close to us, so close.

    It is as Marty has said. Sometimes we have to let go of our fixed ideas of what truth is to find truth.

    The very fact of not being free demands we need to let go of assumed certainties, heart felt beliefs, well word cleared dogma.

    I am learning the joys of jumping with no parachute. Melting into that immortal Self and discovering that there is no ground to hit.


  21. “the individual is lesser than bank (the reactive or subconscious mind). Auditor plus individual are greater than bank .”

    I couldn’t find that idea in DMSMH but the way it is stated in *Science of Survival* is as follows:

    “The theta of the auditor plus the remaining theta of the preclear are a sum which is directed at the entheta in the reactive mind of the preclear. It is a strange fact that the mere presence of an auditor makes it possible for the preclear to run incidents which he could not touch if no auditor were present…”

    The first sentence above seems to me to be more than just a construct since entheta is simply a word for the energies being addressed in auditing. Those energies do exist, or at least come into play, as actualities if you consider the fact that they are detected and measured by the e-meter. The second sentence also seems like an actuality, in a general sense, considering phenomena like faith healing.

  22. Marty,
    Darn it! Every time I try to move away from your blog, you bring up exactly what I want to complain about.

    Ok. Well now, then. Yes, yes, yes. The whole point of Dianetics and Scientology, at least as it was sold to me by LRH, was ONLY as a practical tool to cross the seemingly impassable chasm of the mind.

    How it was then craftily switched to an All-Inclusive Universe, is a study in duplicity and entrapment.

    The key to undo this lunacy is to study the LRH research as he was describing all the factors and considerations that cause fixation of attention and all the factors and considerations that unfix attention. Then compare that to known workable truths from the East and other Spiritual Traditions, Quantum Physics, etc.

    More importantly, let yourself experience truth and knowledge As Is. Let yourself own this knowledge.

    Remain centered, be the source of your viewpoint, own it!

    Then it becomes obvious that Scientology as a Complete Practice is a farce.

  23. Thank you, Mr. Marty for saying, up front, that:

    “The bank is great{er than} than {the}individual’ or ‘the individual is lesser than the bank’ is an invented construct. It has its uses. But, it is not a fact.”

    No wonder a number of other teachers who I have learned from, since withdrawing from the CoS, speak of the power of “conscious co-creation” …

    I would like to echo the words of Alice Bailey:
    The only pledge that any human being should give is, first of all, to his own inner divinity,the soul, and later to the master under whose guidance he can more efficiently serve his fellow man.”

    In resonance,

  24. I do not disagree with you Marty. Here is my take on this:

    LRH did mark out a road to travel that works.

    Today that road has been reconstructed and altered so much that it simply no longer works. That is what is emptying out the Church.

    The degree of alteration of tech in Co$ has increased annually since about 1982 (my guess) so today not only are the auditor + PC not greater than the bank, but the auditor + C/S + EO + Admin + IAS status, etc… are making slaves of PCs (reverse Scientology).. RCS is not the road to total freedom, but the last implant station for many poor souls.

    The auditor + PC are greater than the bank, but not if the auditor breaks the auditors code, etc..

    In the end, I agree Marty, that at some point you are on your own to find your way home, Wherever that may be… but in the beginning it is PC + auditor are greater than the PCs bank and it’s a road that works.

  25. True, this “preclear is lesser than his bank” is not an absolute. It can be used to make an auditor understand that he better sticks there when his preclear is going through something that, if he were alone, he may not be able to handle it fully.

    It could be a workable principle (not a dogma, or a firm belief) to a certain point. Once you have regained enough awareness, that concept/construct can be left on the other side of the river and to walk the rest of the road, other tools could be found and used.

  26. great blog!

  27. Really good one, Marty. 🙂

  28. Well-said, and I agree. I am very interested in your take on things, post Scientology graduation.

    Those that flee ideas such as this are simply not ready for them. That’s okay, one day maybe they will, or maybe never.

    Please continue. I find talking about this stuff very helpful.

  29. Funny how the more I read your blog the more I see railing against the very thing you created along with DM and others of that ilk. These constructs you speak of are the things you created while entrusted with the future of the organization you now constantly attack and berate. And yes there are other philosophies and practices and technologies, that has always been the case. What you speak of is not Scientology, that you have a smattering of an understanding of the subject is quite apparent . In the end what I get is that is still about money and power to you and who is an OL and blah blah blah. The damage you and Dave have committed is organizationally insurmountable and so there you are still fighting with him and ensuring your mutual demise. Meanwhile people who actually are Scientologists simply continue to progress despite you and Dave and the cult of money making by whatever perfidious means are available. Congratulations you have both achieved what could have been done by doing nothing to begin with. Welcome to planet Earth.

  30. and the glue which held it all in place was/is the Policy Letter Keeping Scientology Working which should be renamed “don’t look, just obey”. The first item on every checksheet. The elephant in the room that kept us all asleep. If we start talking about betrayal of trust, that is the boy. And its that belief which rears its ugly head again and again. Its that practice or acceptance of it which could causes one to loose friends or readers. Fortunately, like a drug, its effects wear off the longer one is exposed to freedom. Most here have shaken it off and are moving up a little higher.

  31. Well said Marty – I’m still on the same page with you!
    It’s always a pleasure to read your insightful analysis.

  32. Thank you Marty. I just love how you use these great words I have to look up but you could not say it any better way ” assiduously ”
    “And the solo-auditor will assiduously go on confronting the bank that no one can speak about,….”
    And although I love and appreciate very much LRH trained Word Clearers – for the most part each one did me a favor, but now that I’m ‘on my own’ I look-up the words and don’t bother too much with ALL the definitions unless I’m interested and pretty much find most interest in the derivation and then what you are saying! OMG you certainly have done a lot of un-biased looking to figure out these things. Good for you.

    I as a Solo auditor I found mostly that I trust myself, my own knowingness much more. I came to more know to listen to me in a way I’d not experience since a child. Perhaps that is why DM has found fit to change the tech. To a great extent it brought me more understanding. Too much for my X and 2 kids but so be it. That is their lesson – I’m living mine now.
    Yes, I like your universe Marty. I truly think it’s your karma to find peace with yourself in every detail as needed and to share with us. And it’s my karma (good fortune that I EARNED) to be in a position to read your blog and your wonderful bloggers comments every day I want to. 🙂
    Thank you.

  33. PS I never got that the bank was more powerful then me. It was like in the Data Series. I figured that bank was to be evaluated as to it’s relative importance. I (OT IV) have to keep ‘my’ bank under control now and then but I do it and it’s with knowing and understanding I’m doing it and LRH helped me with that. And I’m fully open to understanding more about where these non-sequitor, non-survival, non-sense thoughts and emotions come from but it’s not going to break my heart if I don’t find out this LT. I’m very happy to be smart enough to know I don’t know at this point!
    Sheeeesh – that was a close call that 39 years!

  34. Hi Marty, yep, you’ve pointed out one of the logical inconsistencies in scientology. In my view the dogma resulted from the need to find ways to keep making money. That needs tosrop. The real focus should be on helping individuals to attain higher states, not on helping yourself (Co$) to their wallets.

  35. Marty, I am with you 100%.
    Many a time I have had this origination from the public :
    Why the hell was I sold a “Clear Package?” only to be told on attaining clear

    “I was at great risk” “I was at huge risk” til through the non interference area”
    (Reference shown)
    Huh ?
    Sold a package that then put me at *RISK* ? The EP is now You are at RISK !
    Only more $$$$$$ and more running *IMPLANTS* would eliminate this risk !!!!!!
    Back on the merry-go-round to OT VIII and back to Purif and Objectives……

  36. Just thought of an example of “last implant station is RCS”: About 35 years ago I ran Objectives on new PCs in the HGC and they cogged something like “if their auditor could control them, then they could control themselves.” Something like that. Today, Advanced Course students and OTs are sent back to Objectives to overrun these fine processes. What cognition are they going to have?? A bognition that “I should be controlled by another.” And “I should control others.” . And, “others should control others.” Self-determination and Self-realization be damned. The group is all, the individual nothing. EP: Go 8C some money for the group.

    This is the reverse of the 8:8008 formula where the seemingly nothing of theta is increased to Infinity and the seemingly infinity of MEST is reduced to nothing.

  37. I believe Russell Salamon wrote this not long after going Clear, back in the day. He is a prolific writer of prose and poetry, now in his 70s. This piece has many good verses. One of my favorites, which your post reminded me of right away, Marty, is this verse:
    “To tell you to sing
    is silly,
    you have never stopped
    To tell you something you
    don’t already know is hard
    for in your giant laughter
    strides open
    and the road you carry
    you lay before you.”
    Here’s the whole thing:
    Fire song bright day
    free and young the sky.
    I have been laughing in wind
    speaking from the sea.
    Flight of immortal dawn
    breaks from my eyes.

    Liquid immortal music of am
    happy carrying the sun
    in my tossing hands the sea
    urns of unchanneled
    mirth I spill and there is
    a song of bright day, life.

    Taking time from leaf,
    I know it is here.
    Breathing space from a flower,
    it’s perfume shocks me into
    lightning and I roar
    like the endlessmost ocean
    a song of life.

    It is here in the palm of my
    laughing. I carry the
    universe in my own looking
    and from the desire to be here
    I make it bright and free.

    Time comes from a laugh
    and when I have killed you
    or you have wronged me,
    it comes from a laugh
    we share over the long drink
    of universe, an aside
    in the home-bar where we drink
    lightning and call it sunlight
    and seeing sunlight we call it

    Mirth dances wild,
    show me your laugh and
    I’ll show you mine.

    Treasures of being shape
    the round cup of galaxy,
    I have been here often.
    I see you singing trees and
    water. I see you living
    down your reputation
    on the corner begging.
    Immortal universe maker,
    it is a good imitation of
    defeat and so real that it is
    and it pains me and I do not
    wish to join you
    and I will not join you.

    I would rather make simpler
    things like universes
    where we can laugh and not
    lose ourselves in the joy of

    Liquid immortal music of am
    burning bright the
    round cups of leaves
    to carry the stored sun
    to bring heavy gifts of thunder,
    stone, to oil the liquid sea
    with blood of torn sun,

    where we have stood divided
    for so long
    that to carry my love to you
    I have to build immortal bridges
    to speak my song to you
    and hope that the unwashed
    will peel from your ears.

    Decayed time, it is no longer
    water, creeps in stumbling
    armies off to war. Solid laughter.
    And to solve my love for you
    I have sent warring hordes
    to tell you, you are my friend.

    And it is a heavy thunder
    I burn for you
    to tell you you are mine
    and I will not harm you
    I do not wish to harm you,
    and I will kill you
    if you don’t believe it.

    Bring me liquid of your music
    and I will breathe you,
    for I need you.
    Without you this joy is not
    a game and without you
    I cannot carry the song I build.
    Without your eyes to laugh
    a sky
    I cannot carry the sun song
    nor the bright earth
    nor the languid or sanguine
    war and love bring.

    Without you to see with
    I have no eyes,
    no ears to touch you.

    For we have been lost
    torn apart
    by gnashing thunder and
    broken heart’s beat
    in the crushing green song
    of a gone universe.

    Each heart beat singes
    suppressed in
    the ravaged skeleton,
    gnats feasting on boulders,
    yet a defiant dawn lurches
    forward, at great expense
    we are singing.

    We who are feasting
    at our own celebration
    can hear the roar
    of the lost green thunder.
    Giant laughter
    on the abyss carries a
    wave of sun.
    Liquid immortal music of am
    moistens the roots of

    From our own song is
    weaved life
    and I can hear you

    Carry your heart in the
    liquid heat.
    I can bring you to the
    verge of song
    and there spill lightning
    of your own freedom
    whose dawn only you carry.

    And is not he who sings,
    And is not the place of
    salvation, you?
    And are you not beautiful
    and alive,
    are you not my friend?

    To tell you to sing
    is silly,
    you have never stopped
    To tell you something you
    don’t already know is hard
    for in your giant laughter
    strides open
    and the road you carry
    you lay before you.

    From your laughter
    you sow seas and life
    and as you sow so shall you

    Carry the dawn, carry
    the hill-free dawn of am.
    Carry the sunlight
    singing rain and rivers.
    Roaring black rocks
    liquify. It is their
    stored laughter to be

    And in freedom burning
    build a city that carries
    from stone to dreams.
    And there a city
    home beyond rain
    liquid immortal song of freedom
    and the day is bright.

    by Russell Salamon. Published in 1976.

  38. “and perhaps open it’s door WIDE to other faiths to come practice within the ENORMOUS buildings the members have purchased.”

    Great idea windhorse. Take the situation of my family, for example. Scientology owes us thousands which has never been refunded. In addition, I had some
    unused hours. Mr. Miscavige let me use the Super Power building to
    hold a Buddhist convention.

    Much Metta,
    George M. White

  39. Well said Karen

  40. Hey if you find yourself TOO “gameless”, there’s always the Ron’s Org upper bridge to “Games Master”. THAT looks like it would keep a guy busy for awhile…. 🙂

  41. marildi,
    I found your amplification helpful. It has been over 25 years since I was in any way involved in Scientology.
    Much Metta,
    George M. White

  42. Mike,
    Not sure where you have been for the past two decades to be able to just get on the apple-box and make strange pronouncements and accusations. Marty has been a straight shooter before working with DM and continues on the right path. Radical fundamentalism is an extreme road which is not agreeable and I’m with Marty 100%.

  43. Me too Brian, “I am learning the joys of jumping with no parachute. Melting into that immortal Self and discovering that there is no ground to hit.”

    Ya and it’s recently simple things I am questioning like last Saturday ending up stuck in a thicket of brush that took my 1/2 hour walk to 2.5hrs. I came home with what I thought were bug bites – turns out after 1 week of treating bug bites and isolation of myself from all possibilities it is bugs – it is in fact poison ivy, oak or sumac. So much for my ‘know best’ and thinking that after 61 years and I never had it I am immune LOL! This is worse then waterboarding – not scratching. A lesson that I must not be my body!

    Another lesson from today…. It really irks me when I loan something and don’t get it back timely. The person with all good intentions becomes not credit worth while in my ‘book’. Hummm what is up with that – don’t I need a bit of credit from others and patience? Then Cece just let it go.
    So I isolate myself from ‘helping’. Well am I? probably not – I keep loaning things. it’s just a question I have and like them all will be answered in a day or hour or whenever convenient 🙂

    It’s just a big sand box out here in the wide wide beautiful world 🙂 As long as one keeps asking questions he will get answers.


  44. Server: “Would you like more dissonance reduction?”

    Patron: “Yes, please.”

    Not that this invalidates any of the spiritual symbiosis and genuinely empathic responsibility undertaken by an auditor – as elucidated in Act One. After all, one cannot underestimate the benefit of “help from another”, can we?

    How’s that for some 20 dollar wordage and pithy profundities?

  45. Sinar +1

  46. Maybe the answer to “What’s next?” is what Geir Isene claims is the EP of OT VIII:

    “I now know who I am not, and am interested in finding out who I am“

  47. Thanks, George!

  48. I like this post. Didn’t lose me. Right here.

    With the freedom of having left the Church almost 4 years ago I have enjoyed the lack of suppression in investigating other philosophical avenues. I also spent much time reading and researching the whole history of the church and all that occurred since I did my comm course in 1969. The good, the bad and the ugly. It was highly enlightening. I have found one writer that was more direct, organized and to the point which is Napoleon Hill. I also became fascinated with the research ongoing in quantum physics and the string theory and the super string theory. Amazing stuff.

    If auditors and CS’s actually duplicated the persistent fn bulletin, many would have benefited and just traveled down the road of life. I no longer consider myself a scientologist…took what I liked and left the rest.

    Just as an aside, I am postulating great success for your lovely wife on this court case. I am supportive of you both spiritually and although I have not posted much recently, have followed your blog and will continue to do so in the future.

  49. And this by :

    Thank you Malvina and Marty

  50. I agree, Cece. It’s a relative thing – i.e. frame of reference. The datum that is senior to “the bank is more powerful” is this:


  51. Thanks for the phrasing. Love the book.

    Can’t agree that the meter measures theta/entheta though. It measures the relative resistance of the body.

  52. Indubitably erudite. 🙂

  53. Agree Silvia,
    LRH wrote in Science of Survival about the theta to entheta ratio.
    A PC at some point could be able to run processes on himself – and this is actualy what is done.

    LRH developed processes as early as SOS (lock scanning) and SA Lists in order to help the PC to run his case by himself. But he also knew that “deep” Auditing needs a consistent counterpart (2nd Terminal) in order to discharge some areas.

  54. Yes, those are constructs.
    Like the concept of karma, or the 4 Noble Truth.

  55. Btw, I keep meaning to tell you, I really like your avatar. That particular combination of colors creates a bright and cheery effect. 🙂

  56. After having been in Scientology and adopting its mindset, it’s good to drill the difference between what a construct is with what a fact is, etc.

    Another good thing to learn is the logical fallacy of reification.

    Reification … is a fallacy … when an abstraction (abstract belief or hypothetical construct) is treated as if it were a concrete, real event, or physical entity. In other words, it is the error of treating as a concrete thing something which is not concrete, but merely an idea.


    This kind of logic training is not available in Scientology. The Data Series does not teach the skills necessary to put together and take apart statements and arguments, nor to analyze categories of concepts and ideas.

    LRH often presented his Scientology constructs as facts, as in saying that the reactive mind is a fact, or the model of the mind he presented (analytical mind, somatic mind, reactive mind) as factual and real – when it is just a model.

    He even drilled into Scientologists that the E-meter “reads” on the reactive mind!

    How can a meter read on a construct?

    Something else must be going on there, huh?

    This shows that many of LRH’s explanations for the causes of things we saw in Scientology should be questioned and examined much more closely.

    These ideas form an important piece of training that people need to recover from Scientology, or to understand its bad thinking habits and not fall prey to them while continuing on in Scientology, if that is your preference.

    Way to go, Marty. CONSTRUCT, once I learned it, is the concept that started collapsing the whole Scientology house of cards for me. I looked around Scientology and just started seeing CONSTRUCT after CONSTRUCT and it just started falling down all around me.

    Once you gather enough critical thinking skills and logic training, Scientology, as a philosophy, has a real hard time standing up to logical examination and scrutiny. If you want to stay a Scientologist, it’s best not to look at it too hard. It’ll come crashing down all around you once you start.

    But hey, seeking to live with the truth is what got you into Scientology. It’s only right that it’s what’ll get you out of it, too.


  57. Blaming Marty and accusing him of being focused on money and power? Are you for real? Your comment makes you come across like a jerk.

  58. Hey Mr. Rathbun, I just want to acknowledge the fact that, as other blogs are enjoying the feeding frenzie of DM’s breached ramparts, you are keeping your attention on spiritual advancement.

    In the Gita Krishna says, “out of one million people only one seeks Me, and out of one million who seek Me only one finds me.”

    Single minded focus and passion for truth. Constant vigilance and willingness to change, dedication to spiritual discipline-this seems to be the measure of man you are. That is my opinion. Thank you for your passion for the spiritual life. It is refreshing.

    BTW, Krishna was speaking in the liberated state as the Supreme Being. The “Me” he is referring to is not a personality that we normally think of as a person. He is talking as the ocean not the wave. We are that.

    Tat Tvam Asi

  59. “The way out is the way through”. An easier way to understand that is ‘ The way through is the way out.’ As I have seen and mentioned before. You want to be free of the mechanics of the MEST world, learn everything about it. All it takes is work. Now that’s one thing that really is basic to a being. The ability to do, and do, and do.

  60. Sorry, here us the correct quote,” for every thousand people, one will seek Me. For every thousand who see Me, one will know Me.”

    Better odds

  61. SKM, to my mind “entheta” is just a word for the charge/energy that registers on the e-meter – and the charge is the thing that determines the relative resistance of the body. The whole theta-mest theory can be seen as a combination of constructs or as a metaphor, but there is an actuality of “bank”, which is in fact just another word (as good as any word) for the charge that can be located and measured objectively with a scientific measuring device – a meter.

  62. Hi Al.
    You wrote: “How can a meter read on a construct?”

    Indeed, how can it?

    Yes, it does tell us, “Something else must be going on there…” It’s actual, physical universe energy since mental energy is no different from physical energy except that it is of a higher wavelength, as noted by LRH – and as evidenced by the e-meter.

  63. spyrosillusionist

    Yes, I think you’re bad Marty. Which is good as I don’t feel alone.

    I think too that at Clear, to a large degree, one gets rid of the reactive mind he’s been creating ever since he got into Dianetics. But I don’t think that’s all, because prior to knowing about reactive minds that are nowhere to be found, one usually also gets to know about subcoscious minds, God, gods and other things that control his thinking. So, he gets rid of all that at Clear, I suppose –he is then responsible for his thoughts.

    I love Siddhartha’s quote. It reminds me of that lecture off Level 1 (I think it was named ‘problems) wherein LRH explained how today’s solutions becomes tomorrow’s problems, because a solution is a way to avoid confronting a problem! 🙂

  64. Funny how the more I read your post it is clear you are rock slamming and ser facing on someone YOU depended on because because you yourself didn’t rise to the occasion.

    Why weren’t you running the Church? Why weren’t you calling the shots? Where were you the three decades Marty wasn’t sleeping because he DID rise to the occasion? What damage did you create by doing little or nothing besides being curious? This is YOUR planet too. These are YOUR your people too. :

    “Doing nothing” doesn’t mean innocent or sane.
    Sanity is assisting things that assist survival. Sanity is inhibiting things that inhibit survival.

    Here you are inhibiting things that assist survival. Doing nothing, is neither assisting or inhibiting, It is just no responsibility.

    As I’ve said before, all of us, our fingerprints all over this mess, yours too.

    Your purpose for writing this message is to MAKE NOTHING out of someone and their three decades of voluntary service and effort to make the world a better place.

    It is these purposes that bind all of into our miseries.

  65. Furthermore, although Marty has withdrawn his allegiance from David Miscavige YEARS ago, and laid himself on the line, and his life, over and over and over again to REMEDY the situation, you pop up here and make am attempt to SHOVE HIM into some “past” YOU are mocking up.

    As I said before, the problem with Scientology is that as soon as you handle your reactive mind, there is some Scientologist running behind you that has made a COPY of it. And has taken on the purpose of a reactive mind to RESTIMULATE you. Throw your past up in your face to DISTURB you.

    I don’t even know why someone like you is involved with Scientology.

  66. Marty


    About a week ago, just after finishing “Memoirs…” I was having a good soak (my favorite ruminating place) and I followed back to a similar conclusion. It dawned on me rather rapidly that I now perceived the entire bridge that I had done, and the remainder, that I only had inklings of, were totally of my own construction. It had taken a lot longer than just a half hour in the tub to come to this realization, but it was then that all the pieces realigned into a new set of understandings.

    Even from my earliest auditing, during which I went “whole track”, I always harbored some niggling suspicion or outright knowledge that I was creating the whole thing. But this was different. Now I realized that it was not just that I was having to re-create the various memories and the effects of them on me and the body, but that the entire concept that there was really anything there to RE-create at all, was a consideration.

    I had been getting clues all through my auditing, and my most profound wins were in the direction of stepping beyond the constructs I depended on, both Scientological and otherwise.

    You are the only person, up to this point, who I had ever heard draw similar conclusions.

    I have come to the following conclusions, among others:

    There is no “whole track” except to the degree I have manufactured one… and I no longer agree that it is necessary to agree to the “whole Track” construct in order to advance spiritually. I have found it a valuable diversion which I employed in order to sort some things out, but I believe its workability is of the same order as considering that you are happy and then noticing that you believe you are. You are really only happy because you believe, “tone 40”, that that is your current state of existence.

    Whether there is “actually” (what ever that means) a “track”, or that one possesses various kinds of “minds” or a “bank” or anything else, is totally inconsequential. What gets the job done I believe, (and here one even has to postulate that there is any kind of job to do) is totally hinged upon ones ability to postulate existences and actions and non-existences and non actions.

    One does not have to “audit” out one’s “demons” unless you have agreed, at some level, that there are “demons” to audit out.

    Any “traps” there are in this universe are created by one’s compulsion to AGREE.

    That one can also use agreement (though sparingly and only temporarily) to un-create these traps is sure fine magic.


  67. spyrosillusionist

    As per the Axioms, It’s the same with all alter-isness as well as with all is-ness, Al. If you want it to persist, don’t perceive it directly without additives etc/ Figuring it out is a way to not perceive it without additives too, by the way –well, according to the axioms, with which you don’t agree, but I do.

  68. spyrosillusionist

    Do you agree with Al that a being cannot construct a fact? What happens then to the considerations>mechanics?

  69. This comes from a very early set of laws (Dianetics: The Original Thesis):
    Auditor plus pc is greater than the bank,
    Auditor plus bank is greater than the pc,
    Pc minus auditor is less than the bank.

    (As cited in HCOB 30 April 1969 “Auditor Trust”)

  70. Well this is an interesting line of inquiry, isn’t it?

    What other meter can evidence this “mental energy” of a “higher wavelength”? If a 15 dollar wheatsone bridge can “read” it, shouldn’t it have been detected by some other kind of device by now, too?

    I mean 60 years and no one else has duplicated the experiment with other ways of detecting this higher wavelength of energy around a human being. How likely is that? I mean – if what LRH said was the cause of the read was actually the cause of the read – shouldn’t someone else have caught wind of it by now in an independent line of inquiry?

    A lot of people have said that the wheatstone bridge is reacting on rising and lowering humidity from the body as a reaction to stress. I know that is not a popular explanation of the cause of the read among Scientologists, but trained forensic experts in law enforcement all over the world seem okay with it when it is observed in lie detectors – which are an extremely similar application to an e-meter.

    Maybe there are other explanations of the cause – possibly detectable with an MRI. How come an MRI hasn’t detected this “higher wavelength of energy” around a human being?

    And maybe it is a higher wavelength of energy that is completely different from the idea of a REACTIVE MIND.

    My point is that LRH’s explanation for the cause of reads has a lot of problems with it. And if you are really seeking to live with the truth, and not just holding on to an explanation that validates your present belief system, then there are a lot of places to look for the cause of a read that LRH never mentioned. And if those areas don’t validate existing Scientology beliefs and theory then too bad, right?

    I say seek to live with the truth, and let the falsities fall.


  71. maxim46zbitnoff

    Gato, glad to hear you made it through.

    The story of scientology and the sea org in particular reminds me of a book I just read by Phillip K. Dick, The Penultimate Truth. In it most most of the population goes into underground tanks to produce robots for the war while being exhorted and inspired by the supreme leader by video screen to produce more, with rations cut for those tanks who were not meeting quotas. A representative sent by the government to each tank makes sure that no one questions the wisdom they are fed. The problem is never the leadership but only those who do not tow the line. Little do they know that the war has been over for years and the robots they make are being used by those above ground… the ruling class… for their own purposes and the supreme leader they see on screen is a programmed dummy controlled by a greedy power obsessed man.

    In true Phil Dick style it is full of twists and turns of plot and reality and truth are always up for question.

  72. Wonderful post Marty! Thank you.

    For me, scientology wasn’t a raft it was a ship. For quite a long while I thought that my finding this particular ship was more happenstance than not. Eventually, though, I did come to recognize that it was I that had summoned the ship. And, this scientology ship was one that I really needed at the time. But, there did come a point in my journey when the ship, for me, entered into the doldrums and just seemed to stay there. As I became aware that I too was had become stuck in the spiritual doldrums, I, with great trepidation, jumped ship and made my way to shore (I described this departure, using the ship metaphor, in more detail in a comment I posted on one of Marty’s blog posts quite some time ago).

    My scientology experience, in a timed release sort of way, taught me that the journey I was on was mine, was never anything else but mine and would always be mine. However, the trust in Self has been a bit of an issue for me. Trust in Self, though, is something that I have been steadily developing and this process continues to be rewarding well beyond what my Monte identity could have ever possibly imagined. I have come to learn, also, that there are and will be many, many crossings to make in this journey of self-discovery that I am on and there will be many, many vessels (forms, structures, constructs) that will appear to help me make these crossings. Gardening, for me, has been one such vessel. And there are so many more!

    My experience of what occurred when I became so incredibly attached to one vessel, the scientology ship, was a most fantastic and much needed lesson for me to learn and I am immensely grateful to have been aware enough to have actually received it. It is a lesson that has made an enormous difference in my journey.

  73. Thank you Oracle.

  74. Yes, thank you marildi – I keep forgetting to remember that 🙂

  75. maxim46zbitnoff

    Home run, Marty!

  76. From the Tech Dic:
    TONE ARM, 4. the tone arm reads at 5000 ohms female and 12,500 ohms male for the body. It reads the body. When a person is Clear the E-meter ceases to read. That …. SH Spec 1, 6105C07.

    There are/were just some hints such as this that proved not to believe everything written by LRH.

    No amount of word clearing could clear up some things.

  77. I wouldn’t have picked the auditor plus the preclear are greater than the bank as us one of the ultimate destructive beliefs or concepts in Scientology if I had had spent my whole life trying to find one. I think it is silly how you’ve blown this out of all proportion — especially if you consider that you have probably seen thousands of hours of auditing work just like this.

  78. Hey Al long time no Al and Val Show, so…… let me present this from another angle……

    The thing is, anything existing could be considered to be “substantial”, “material”, or “solid”. This includes “constructs”, ideas, knowledge, etc.
    It is not as though “ideas” are somehow less material, less “there”, than say, rocks. That’s the old trick of making nothing of ideas, of making ideas less important than rocks and trees or whatever. Ideas are not “imaginary”. Ideas do exist, and in order to exist and be perceived, they must have a “substance” of some kind.

    Hubbard drew a distinction between MEST and “mental MEST”, but both are MEST. Mental pictures, ideas, and constructs are just as much “mest” as trees and rocks are mest.

    Thus any construct is “real” and can be perceived and experienced. Theoretically, any construct can be mocked up, and of course therefore could also be as-ised or unmocked. This is covered a lot in much of Eastern philosophy including Buddhism. Is the world real or not, etc.

    “Reification” is something else again. Reification is the positing of the substantial, palpable objective existence of abstract nouns such as “justice”, “loyalty”, “honor”, etc. Justice is the one most of us know – The blindfolded woman holding some scales. If you think such a person actually exists somewhere, you are indulging in “reification”. Even so, the idea of “justice” exists and has some degree of substantiality, in the way that any idea does.

    This is how a construct such as the “Id” or the “reactive mind”, or even just plain “mind”, differs from and is not “reification”. Reification refers to the notion that abstract qualities have a substantial existence as ‘things”. “Construct” mostly refers to ideas which are developed from observation of some phenomena. Science deals a lot in constructs. These are attempts to point to real things.

  79. there is no clear. there never was. lrh only ever intended to make gobs of money and get famous. in this he was successful, but he did it by selling you bs

  80. “In the end what I get is that is still about money and power to you and who is an OL and blah blah blah.”

    Kind of obvious who “Mike” is. Just consider who is out here making power plays and sponging off of everyone.

  81. Mike Eldredge has not done anything to help dismantle the Church of Scientology in its present form. Having done nothing, Mike is now criticizing Marty Rathbun, a man who has taken on the Cult head on.

  82. Forever Lurker

    Like what you’re looking at, Marty.

    I did the Clearing Course . . . you know, old school style. I’ve never doubted the benefit I got (something really good happened at the end), but in recent years I’ve wondered if it was actually based on a “real incident” or not. A construct perhaps, as you put it. I’ve concluded this: it maybe doesn’t matter.

    If the incident portrayed is real . . . then by doing the steps of the level we are essentially “running it out.” And poof, at one point the Clear EP, an EP happens.

    If the incident portrayed is not real, or as you put it a “construct” of one man . . . then by doing the steps of the level we are essentially doing a form of early 50’s mock up processing or “creative processing.” And poof, at one point the Clear EP, an EP happens.

    Old OT IV was sort of a reprise. Those who have done it will know what I mean.

    So viewing it that way, it sorta doesn’t matter as long as the person benefited from it. I’ve stopped worrying either way. It did a lasting good for me and that’s all I really care about. Make sense?

    What is real and actual . . . gets “run out.”

    What is not real and not actual . . . takes on more of a form of creative processing (early 50’s) . . . or could even loosely be compared to “creative visualization” in other practices, but with more of a format or series of steps.

    Just my two cents . . . since you brought up constructs.

  83. pierre von boetzelaer

    Hello from Europe and I’m just dropping by to give a heads up from one ex $cientologist and sea org member to another. Marty is been making big waves in and out of the churc” and I just saw a documentary about his live which covers how he was stalked by the squirrel busters. It was an embarrassment to witness how people who are actively in the fold behave towards other human beings. and that I was at one time connected to this group I know one of the lower levels on the bridge clears up ones ability to communicate about > anything anybody total freedom <. However when these abilities are actually practised to ones own best abilities this can solicit a response from the same organisation in the form of a team of squirrel busters who claim to protect freedom and communication. It appears communication (freedom of speech) and freedom in general means different things to different people and that it is a basic human right that belongs in a free and open society. Marty has proven himself to be a true defender of these freedoms above and beyond the capability of the CofS to do the same. As it turns out the CofS has demonstrated again and again throughout history that it is an enemy of freedom and freedom of speech. Well done on all you are doing Mark and God speed, how do I get in touch with you to talk privately and share insights about our experiences? Greetings, Pierre

  84. Mike, it is good to hear that some people are simply continuing to progress. Does that progress include no further need to tell others what is wrong with them?

  85. I actually used the word model to mean the same thing. The thetan, bank, cycle of action are models by which to depict events or underlying principles. Perhaps an attempt to bridge the discrepancy between what we see with our eyes, feel with our fingers, sense through the body, and things we perceive with the mind. Even the quantum mechanics discussion is comprised largely still of theories (models, constructs) attempting to explain phenomena.

    This is about living in the question. In Scientology you are asked to achieve certainty. No hint of a question there, in the end. Only an upper bridge, shrouded in mystery.

  86. Spot on evaluation of relative importance, Marildi.
    I never bought into the notion “being in danger” as as result of the state of Clear. In fact I have been quite pleased with it! I got that there might be some truth somewhere behind the statement, but also that it was somewhat a sales pitch. If I had not made that same evaluation of relative importances you point out, reading the statement about “being in danger” might have left a “bad taste” in my mouth. The fact is that CONSIDERATIONS TAKE RANK OVER THE MECHANICS OF SPACE, ENERGY AND TIME is the senior datum. Thank you for stating this truth.

  87. Some more “fashinating” food for thought. Thanks Marty.

    Most religions (all?) have the initial construct(s) which is the basis for most or all of what follows. When a person accepts this (and really to be IN the religion as an actual participant, one HAS to accept it, usually willingly and most times enthusiastically to continue on at the beginning of involvement), what comes later builds onto the first construct(s).

    For example, (the very short version here) in Judaism/Christianity, the story is that God creates man, who immediately falls into disobedience and sin, which sin continues over time, causes a rupture with man’s relations with God, who eventually heals the rift by coming to Earth as his own son (Jesus) to save mankind and give it eternal life (if you choose to be a believer).

    Of course, to be a believer in the whole story above, one has to accept the construct of God’s creation of man, who falls quickly into sinful ways.

    But in the third dynamic of most religions (Judaism, Christianity & Islam anyway), there is an insistence and sometimes by heavy force that all constructs are accepted as COMPLETE TRUTH and are not to be questioned (if any numbers of parishioners do indeed question the group’s doctrines, what has usually happened is that they have broken off from the main group and formed their own sects and so we see these in the three religions above …. and they have their own constructs. There are different “versions” of Buddhism and Hinduism as well).

    Can free thought or the “right” to question a construct exist in a religion? In one of the early Philadelphia Lectures, LRH tells the audience that he will be giving them numerous opinions of his about various aspects of life, but that these are only his opinions and that they should feel free to accept or reject any of them. BUT … he then says that when he talks about the phenomena of how the clearing procedure works, these points are COMPLETELY true (I think he compares it to the laws of physics). This is even though he himself was changing the clearing procedure.

    When LRH first got into past lives (and later in the early 60s, OWs) he did get some negative reaction from a number of his followers, and of course, these followers really had to leave the group because they did not accept the “true” doctrine.

    If one wants to LOOK at a construct in any religion and start to consider whether that construct is true or not, then one almost always has to leave the religion and do it in the way we are doing it on this very blog (or do it surreptiously I guess).

  88. I realise my previous comment was exactly that, making you wrong in an underhanded way. I wish WordPress provided an edit function, but perhaps it is just as well. It’s a good way to learn from mistakes.

    Still, I have to ask – are you the same Mike Eldredge who’s letter was posted on Mike Rinder’s blog?

  89. “In the same way, all truths should be used to cross over; they should not be held on to once you have arrived.”

    Perhaps because they were the truths from the other side? They have their use from that vantage, not necessarily from another.

  90. As to why all Scientologists accept the initial construct you mention in your post ….. well, it DOES make a lot of sense. One gets introduced to Scientology by reading DMSMH or often Evolution of a Science and immediately recognizes the phenomenon of a person acting crazy, feeling crazy or being the effect of negative emotions AND NOT KNOWING WHY OR WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT. So the construct of the person being “at effect” of a force that he cannot recognize/handle (in that sense, it is “greater” than he is because it is controlling him and causing unwanted effects) indicates to almost everyone who gets into Scientology (I know it did for me when I first read Evolution of a Science – I felt like the fish in the story …. so the idea that another person – the auditor- would team up with me to be greater than this force that had been controlling me indicated immediately – I was only 19 and had some emotional problems and joined staff within weeks and quickly became a Cl IV auditor).

  91. Russell Salamon is an amazing poet! His words communicate far beyond their combined meanings. It is magical what he does.

  92. I get your viewpoint about Scientology and Scientologists, Marty.
    And I do see truth in some of the the statements you have made in this post, though not all.
    But, in all fairness, would you agree that everything you have laid out here, including the following quote also constitutes a “construct” (a working hypothesis or concept), though of your OWN creation?
    “With that introduction, I am going float an idea that is liable to shock the sensibilities of the most liberal minded Scientologist. That is that just about everything one learns in Dianetics and Scientology is a construct; a working hypotheses or concept to hold in order to practice a ritual.”

  93. I feel a bit drawn to this conversation. But then, I sometimes get the urge to watch the news for a few hours. Then I smile and get over it.
    Hi folks. It’s a beautiful day here in N. Alabama. I love the fall.

  94. Mike, its ok to look, to change, to grow. If your not up to it, fine. But don’t shoot at folks who are willing to move higher. No need to be nasty. Deal with the issue on its merits, or leave it to others. No one is attacking you personally. And if you feel what is written here attacks your fundamental spiritual belief system, you can evaluate that on its merits, or don’t look. Marty did not create the constructs of which he speaks. You state he did. That’s incorrect. He may have believed in them or upheld them, as we all did. And this has nothing to do with Dave. Its about growth, Mike. And its your choice. Its telling that you feel or act out as being so threatened. That’s a thread you owe it to yourself to pull.

  95. Amen, AMEN! After being out of the COS for over 25 years I have worked very hard to ‘let go of all the constructs’. Those agreements that everything by LRH, SCIO, OT levels etc was absolute truth.
    Letting go of supposed truth and some fantasy, after all LRH was a fantasy writer and brilliant at it, has been an education and wonderful learning experience all onto itself. I have grown and moved up a little higher. All just part of the process.
    That being said, THANK YOU, Marty for your sharings on this blog. I am tracking you ……. we all share the desire to grow, learn, understand and be all that we can be.

  96. So true. Thank you!

    Marty is in present time, facing a present time problem.

    There are those that are stuck in the past, their past, his past, Hubbard’s past, you name it. They are not in present time and do not want to be in present time.

    And they are attacking “the past” . It’s sad really. “Oh I remember 10 years ago Marty did such and such.” YOO HOO! Come up to present time why not? There were plenty of clears OTs and auditors made during those three decades too because of Marty. They get amnesia on that end of it so what does that tell you about their purpose?

    This is WHY we have a mess. People with the purpose to unmock other people. They did it in the Church. Then they carry it out here too and still can not be part of any SOLUTION only part of some new PROBLEM.

    You look at their history since they have left the Church and they have been embroiled in situations where they have become the PROBLEM.

    Then they come over here and offer to be a PROBLEM. Not a solution, they come here and become a new PROBLEM.

    No wonder Hubbard was suicidal at the end. His failed help button must have been stomped right into the ground. By whom/what? People who become PROBLEMS no matter how much you audit, teach, speak and train them! It’s like a fucking ser fac! “YOU JUST TRY TO SOLVE ME!” And I mean, this is what David Miscavige is running!

    They make SCIENTOLOGY NOT WORK ON PURPOSE! They are grade 2 but they ser fac, on PURPOSE. It is a PURPOSE. You would think just reading the definition of a ser fac a person could rise above that with discipline right?

    Who cares out here? STAY a PROBLEM! BE a PROBLEM! You are not anyone’s “stat” anymore! We are off the welfare system! Sink or swim. Noone around here wants to profit off your misery!

    I mean, this is like, confusion! Seriously this a scientific fact. It only takes 21 days to make or break a habit, any habit. 21 days!

    That is very generous. Even that dictates time is cause over function and that is takes 21 days to work through a personal doubt condition.

    You get someone up through the Sunshine Rundown ,…..they should be self determined. O.K. when they are not then what? You just have to address this stuff as a bad habit. A PURPOSE to make Scientology NOT WORK while worshiping Hubbard. Like “Christians” who fuck up everything while adhering “Christ”.

    Who gets blamed? The founder. I mean, this is so f&%*&#g 1.1. Just a way to MAKE NOTHING out of something or someone.

    Here is Marty, a Clear, an OT, an auditor, and you have people posting here suggesting he is a liability. These are not people who think Scientology works. Yet the pretend to be “loyal officers” or “with Ron”. Seriously?

    .And by their words and invalidation of the product, they UNDERMINE the product. They undermine the whole package.

    Well, some of them do because they have no other reality. So that makes it true for them. And it is true for them.

    But these people that have attested to clear and OT levels and have been in the Sea Org, David Miscavige style. Out here tripping and down into ser facs and rock slams and blame and punishing bodies. They do it to prove it has no value. No matter what they put forth socially as a banner.

    For them, that is the truth. They have not had case gain, they do not see the value.

    That isn’t Marty’s fault!

  97. Know them by their actions. How hard is that? Marty spent over three decades in volunteer service to put others before himself. He trained, he made it up the bridge. He makes clears. He makes auditors. He speaks truth. Let me tell you, anyone who comes to you and tries to MAKE NOTHING out of that is working to MAKE NOTHING out of Scientology. I don’t care what wardrobe they are wearing. Because WHO CAN BEAT HIS STATS? So, if they can make NOTHING OUT OF HIM, WHAT ARE THEY TELLING YOU?

    H E L L O !

  98. A couple thoughts while reading this…

    I believe LRH at one time stated the OT was a postulated state, which I can agree with. I suspect Clear to be the same. A postulated state is a construct.

    The “Auditor + PC > Bank” construct, as well as the inclusion of C/S, D of Ps, MAAs, etc is supported by LRH’s statement “Auditing is a third dynamic activity”. You will forever NEED the group, especially when pursuing elusive postulated states.

    The other thought that occurred to me is, this contributes to the mystique of “how I came to rise above the bank”, implying that LRH was somehow outside this construct, a true superior being, thus establishing Ron the Savior. While the rest of us were dependent upon organized Scn to achieve salvation.

  99. I say seek to live with the truth, and let the falsities fall.
    That’s great and I wish you luck with it.

    Can you agree upon the theory that the e-meter, as a tool, can help detect charged areas and in this way, by using some processes, help reducing the resistance of the auditee (pc/pre-ot)?

  100. Marty: some questions?

    1. Have you arrived at the other end of the river and decided to leave the raft?
    2. Do you know for sure that others have arrived?
    3. In case they haven’t, why are you constantly trying to get them to leave that raft or even attempt to get people of the raft yourself?
    4. Are you going to write a book without referring to Scientology but refer to something else? Because I think you are still “using” the raft but I don’t know which shore you wanna reach.

    Just another construct?

  101. spyrosillusionist

    Up untill now, I haven’t read any other explanation as to how the e-meter can react in similar ways to similar kinds of thoughts. I say CAN, instead of DOES, because thoughts fortunately don’t have to be interconnected to those mental masses. Such a disconnection would be desirable, unless we demanded that everyone must have case reactions forever.

  102. Thanks marildi,
    Theravada Buddhist colors. You will see them in the attached video.
    George M. White

  103. Mike,
    When beliefs are challenged, emotions can run high. Examine your beliefs. Then look for the facts.

    “Few, it seems, stop to contemplate and recognize that the further one goes, the more formidable, and interminable his baggage becomes in Scientology. Fewer still, it seems, recognize the construct nature of the fundamental law that served as the glue to addict him or her to cult life in the first place.”

    One of the largest pieces of baggage I had to toss was the concept that ‘I’ was somehow a Scientologist that was changing to an Independant Scientologist. In fact I have left Scientology and made it to the bank on the far side of the river. The e-meter and other entrapments are part of the raft.

    There are many other challenges on up the line and several will be in clear view shortly. Keep your powder dry.

  104. If it is… (And I apologise in advance here if it isn’t)… Then he really should not be welcoming anyone “to planet earth”.

    Whatever his view, and I have no doubt it is a valuable one for some, he has little credibility to be making such sweeping statements about others. Well, to make them and be listened to anyway.

    We all have our journeys to make and our crosses to bear. Marty has been kind enough to share his for many years to the benefit of many.

    For someone who has soo much confidence in his views he seems significantly deficient in the skills needed to argue his case successfully.

    Or to put it another way;

    He is both arrogant and ignorant… Staple traits of the “good scientologist”.

    I’ll take Marty’s humility and learning any day.

  105. 🙂 You never know. I would like, for once, to be able to do all of Route 1. My real goal, though, is to EP R2-45 😉

  106. Alanzo… Just wanted to quickly thank you for all your efforts on the various “internet fringe boards” over the years… You helped me, and no doubt many others, exercise my own critical thinking skills and I am a better citizen for it.

    Thanks brother!

    And great post here too… As ever…😊

  107. Gayle aka TroubleShooter

    This site/blog, – the authors, the purpose of it, the progress and intended results and the competence that author named “admin” conveys, the methods of it’s stated purpose, the non-judgmental tone – it all reflects that which I thought I was a part of from day number 1 over 28 years ago.

    I see the direction you have gone, hoping that it’s all part of a strategy to end cob’s strangle hold on something important to me; hoping for your deliverance of an effective blow against that which you were part architect of and which I believe you and Mike are the most likely to effect – I imbue hope in to that; knowingly, willingly and at the risk of having my heart broken once again. Yet I do.

    The people behind, people whose caring to keep the Bridge open and free are people who I share such a goal. I decided a long time ago to pursue a path where my energy and production in life would embrace a meaningful path that became defined by me as helping others who want to help others to help others and so on to create happy individuals, families, communities and so on.

    If individuals disappoint ones view of goodness in each of us, if another’s actions block our own flow of life’s lightening – ARC – then one only needs to audit out an overt or evil-purpose in a pc to remind oneself of the true beauty in us all. The OT levels, NOTs auditing – I’ve experienced the gains and have now begun to deliver them. Observation is a freedom I exercise as an auditor that was never taken from me by the corruption of the cofs. Taking ones canvas and pallet doesn’t take away the ability and passion. One can always get more paint.

    Evil, suppression, injustice, disconnection, deception, black PR, rumors, complacency, laziness, unhattedness, betrayal – these things have existed almost as far back as I can recall – but there was a point where I knew it didn’t exist; before I agreed that it did. You get what you put attention on is a powerful tool. Taking ones attention and placing it on good, love, peace this is called naive by those who are called cynics.

    Affluence attainment – it’s something that hasn’t failed me, it’s been the one piece of LRH’s green on white compositions that has continued to stand out for me not as a dutifully applied piece of tech but as a consistent validation as I’ve stayed on my originally intended path of which LRH’s tech continues to contribute to. That path was not chosen so I could become or had some need to be a cog in someone’s wheel or a sycophant to anyone or anything. Quite the opposite. That there are those who may mock me because of my experience is of no consequence to me at the end of the day. I chose were to put my feet on this path; the tech isn’t what moves my feet. As an individual I pursue my very personal purpose that my happiness requires; helping others and to do so I needed to rehabilitate me because I said so. LRH gave me an opening in which to walk and I’m still walking on that path because it continues to provide A Way for me to expand my capacity to love and help others do so as well.

    The lights didn’t suddenly go out blanketing the cofs and consequently my world in to darkness – the lights in the cofs where being turned down slowly; bumping in to the furniture on the way to the kitchen was easily explained as one being out of present time but not everyone failed to notice that the furniture was being rearranged. My study, application and observation of results of LRH’s tech from auditing Life Repair to NOTs does not make me a marionette it makes me happy. I’m pursuing life, living it, embracing it and contributing to it as me an individual – no strings attached.

    Paul Schobel (a man, now deceased who spent decades in the S.O., was a man anyone who knew has admiration and fond memories of) and I spent a memorable and in retrospect very significant time together for me wherein I married up my purpose with Scientology and to my eastern beliefs where my path is rooted. Paul was light in the dimming room. My pursuits to produce along my purpose line through Scientology technology makes me neither a cog nor a sycophant but an ever evolving individual following the results obtainable by record and is part of creating my journey is LRH’s tech. There comes a point in applying it that one ceases the need to question it or pontificate on it’s efficacy at least their should IMHO as there is productive things to do with ones time. I don’t feel the need to question whether I feel better when I eat fresh food or sleep well. I don’t feel the need to question if a sledge hammer and crowbar are the tools to use when tearing out a wall. It’s taken me 10s of thousands of hours of training, interning and application of it to others that enable me to move past the philosophical debates about whether this tech from bottom to top is absolutely effective and amazing to give and to receive. I am what some consider an expert in the technology, the use of an e-meter. My experience is what provides my view into the world that surrounds us, is us, becomes us, as it invisibly acts upon the energy of what we see, feel, hear, rearrange and are. If that experience is of any value then let me be clear that I have no need to pontificate on it. The sledge hammer and crow bar work best.

    I no more fit in to some mold than I want to fit someone else in to a mold. I don’t call you an SP so why try to label me through your philosophizing about what is for me a tool box for life? or Why do I feel as though you are lumping me who knows the tech works all the way through NOTs in to the category of a held-down seven robot who lives their life by or in consultation only of an LRH reference? It’s in fact that very tendency to do such that walls are built, an effort to keep us so separated; that justify not granting beingness enough to truly love and contribute to everyone in our lives everything in our lives so as to nurture it like it’s meant to be and if done will be the world full of fantastic which we all deserve to live in or so I desire.

    I thank all of you who are creating effectively toward a better world for us through effective production toward taking walls down rather than building them up. Whether it’s with LRH’s tech or taking a plate of cookies to your neighbor. Love begets love.

    I nspired by inspiration

    L oved by loving
    O pposing is building walls
    V anity is a wall
    E veryone is important

    Y ou are important
    O ur lives not my life
    U s not us and them

    T ruth is a light
    O vert love is The Way
    O nly through love is


  108. I heard that. It looks like the entirety of OT IV through OT VIII is a repair action for OT III. Well, I ep’ed OT III. That may be the reason lots of people “stall” at OT III – they are done with Scn at that point.

  109. Valkov –

    There is nothing wrong with a construct.

    It is mistaking the construct for the factual reality that is the problem. It is building a model and then forever after studying only the model, and then quitting the search for the factual reality that is the fallacy Hubbard fell into, and brought other Scientologists into.

    You can’t have a guy who is the main researcher for a supposed technology saying very sloppy things like “The Reactive Mind is a fact!”.

    He either doesn’t understand what a model is, or what a fact is, or he wants the people he is talking to to be confused about these things.

    These are some of the major logical problems with the presentation of the Scientology technology itself. You can’t build a technology that deals with things that are factual realities if you have these kind of confusions between constructs and facts.

    Now if you want people to believe in fairy tales which have no factual realities to them, then this approach is fine.

    But no Scientologist I ever knew signed up to be force-fed fairy tales.

    Did you?


  110. I never believed I was at risk here. Whether anyone else was I havn’t the tech knowledge or experience to say, but I doubt they were more at risk than before they were clear.

    There are other matters than “bank”. Case ” the whole sum of past by passed charge”. L’s and FPRD and Ex Dn for example handle evil
    intentions. Done L-11 and FPRD to massive gains.

  111. I can see your point. Marty was part of the Sea Org machine that destroyed the church. He was working side by side with and for David Miscavige, and performed the dirty tricks used to protect these “constructs” – such as disconnection, lawyer games, and lying to the media, public Scientologists, the Sea Org, DM, and himself. He was doing this from the late 70s through 2004 – a lifetime. During that time, the atrocity that is the current Church of Scientology was created, and he was second in command during this period.

    Here’s my take on this: Yes, he’s guilty. This shit happened on his watch. But you know what, it happened on my watch, too, and your watch. I don’t need to defend Marty, but what the hell, I will anyway.

    If you were in the CMO, then you were responsible for the idiocy that the CMO was – pubescent teenagers drunk with power. This is well before DM’s watch. Why didn’t you take him behind the woodshed when you had the chance?

    Marty has issued his mea culpas. He is also re-examining his “faith”, so to speak. This is perfectly okay. And, frankly, given the fact that Sea Org members have ALWAYS been the least-trained people in Scientology (“enhancement”? Don’t make me laugh. RIDIDIs (Read it, Drill it, Do it) – squirrel RPF crap) every ex-SO member has to sort out what they really believe when they leave the church. I find it truly amazing that people who have dedicated their youth and their prime to the Sea Org leave later in life and then think that Scientology is bullshit. Sure, the Scientology THEY created was bullshit – the Scientology of the Sea Org, Thursdays at 2, the RPF, all-nighters, the hole, “thought-stopping”, harsh “ethics” and “justice” actions, yelling, screaming, forced abortions and “cold chrome steel.” – all that was bullshit they created amongst themselves in a vacuum. So, sure, they will reject that.

    And, this was being created since before DM was in power, and if you were in the SO, you created it too. But, I will give you and Marty a break. We just need to acknowledge it, point out that it still exists for some people, and then move on.


  112. SKM wrote:

    Can you agree upon the theory that the e-meter, as a tool, can help detect charged areas and in this way, by using some processes, help reducing the resistance of the auditee (pc/pre-ot)?

    There are a lot of assumptions in the theory that you are asking me to agree with:

    1. …detect charged areas… Charge implies by-passed charge, as well as the whole series of totally un-proven explanations Hubbard presented in Scientology 8-80 with his “wavelengths of energy” from “MEST” through “aesthetics” on up to “theta”. All this is a construct. There are no facts there. If mental “charge” is really energy, then it should be able to be detected as such by something other than an e-meter, too.


    60 years of not being able to be detected by anything else is an important fact to consider when examining the evidence for Hubbard’s theory of charge.

    Whether mental and emotional feelings and memories are made of up “charge” or actual, factual energy of some kind has no factual evidence to support it. If memories and emotional feelings were made up of some kind of energy, then there should be some kind of factual evidence for it. When there is none, all you have is a theory or a construct with no evidence to support it.

    When a Scientologist observes the meter read in session, he is only observing a movement of the needle and the pc’s response. He is not observing “charge” or any kind of factual energy. This is an important logical distinction to keep in mind.

    2. ….by using some processes, help reducing the resistance of the auditee (pc/pre-ot)?

    I don’t know.

    And I don’t think any Scientologist actually knows, either.

    Why do OT’s who have had so much auditing to reduce “charge”, and thus resistance, still have high TA’s? If there was an actual reduction in some kind of energy from running all those processes, this observed physical universe reality would be inconsistent with Hubbard’s theory of the cause of emeter reads. Right?

    There are a lot of observed physical universe realities that are inconsistent with Hubbard’s theories for the causes of things in Scientology. But most Scientologists are taught to look away from those inconsistencies and are trained heavily never to question them.

    All I can say is that I do not KNOW why the emeter reads. After 60 years, there is still no factual evidence for the cause of the read being a “higher wavelength of energy” or “mental charge” as Hubbard proposed in his 1951 book “Scientology 8-80”.

    This is why I can not agree with the theory you proposed, SKM.

    I think that the cause of emeter reads is more likely something else than Hubbard said. If he was right, there should be factual evidence to support it. There is none, despite 60 years of assertions.


  113. Wow. Well thanks, Chris!


  114. Forever Lurker

    I also have come to think that “creative processing” might be much of what is in play in Scientology technologies, but also most any other technologies, or “paths”, also.

    It seems to me, at this point, that “constructs”, or “mock-ups” are symbolic mechanisms that beings use to help them to “figure out” various aspects of their relationships to the universes that they find themselves in, at any particular time. The constructs and mock-ups, seemingly being easier to manipulate than more solid forms of MEST, and REAL LIVE BEINGS, become handy “demo kits” for achieving better understanding.

    It appears to be a gradient of confront.


  115. I like this post – this is real progress and helpful information to come out of the confusion I personally experienced due to my involvement in Scientology!!
    Thank you for sharing this Marty!!

  116. You tell me.


  117. spyrosillusionist

    I would expect from you to tell me something like that the axioms are not facts, thus, they’re not truth, thus they’re lies.

    I asked Marildi because in the axioms there is no equation between the terms ‘fact’ and ‘truth’. According to the axioms, ‘is-ness’ (fact) is not truth (‘as-isness’). Is-ness is an (or more than one) agreed upon lie.

  118. As I re-read your question, I saw that you were speaking to Marildi, Spyros.

    Unfortunately, I’d already hit reply.



  119. Marildi,
    Thank you! One of my absolute favorite data.
    Just so that those who threw their old books away or for those who never
    had the old books, DM was ‘so kind’ to hide this senior datum in the latest 2007 book issue in COHA (CREATION OF HUMAN ABILITY) page 24 without any reference to in in the index. Good hunting!

  120. Espiritu, you mention “sales pitch” and I remember LRH wrote in some issue, something like – If you told someone on the planet of Saturn that there existed a planet where you had to sell someone their freedom, they wouldn’t believe you. Well, that planet exists – and you are on it (paraphrased).

    Also, here’s an interesting excerpt for you from a PDC tape:

    “…you are merely using Scientology either to put an industry on its feet or put preclears together, your rate of change of havingness and nothavingness
    to a large degree depends upon your aesthetic, not the exposition of your knowledge.

    “Your havingness and not-havingness, then, is changed by the interest level which is elicited towards you, and interest is invited by aesthetics, not by knowledge.

    “That’s why there are so few who will ever learn this subject. Really, there are very few out of all the beings there are.”
    (PDC 18.12.52)

  121. In Scientology, people arrive at the “highest level” and do not know who they are, and it’s considered a “win.”

    They even get a “cert” for it.

    So silly.

  122. Great post Marty! I was just thinking the other night now interesting it was that LRH was the only one in Scientology that was allowed to do his own research and come to his own conclusions. If I did not come to the same conclusions as LRH when studying Scientology I had to keep clearing my words until I did agree. The one department LRH never allowed on the org board was an R&D department.

  123. Just to note, where he talks about havingness and not havingness in this context, he is talking to auditors about their income, and then goes on to say what it is based on in the above excerpt.

    Anyway, the key point he was making was that “interest is invited by aesthetics, not by knowledge.” I remember this basic idea in other references too, where he states that most people can’t be reached on the level of reason. To me, that explains a lot about why LRH presented his discoveries in the form he did, including even the OT III narrative.

  124. spyrosillusionist

    No problem. I wanted a chance to write what I wrote as a reply to you, anyway.


  125. Hi,

    “I think that the cause of emeter reads is more likely something else than Hubbard said.”
    I don’t know what you’ve read for yourself to make this statement.
    The tone-scale and wavelenghts have nothing to do with the e-meter reading. They go along to some degree, but what you read on the meter is relative resistance.

    The history of galvanic skin response meters is much older than Hubbard, Mathison or even C.G. Jung. Check some facts here:
    And you should check the variety of galvanic skin response meters in psychology.

    How the distinct needle reactions come about is of lesser importance than to know how to interpret them in order to help the auditee to lessen resistance.

    So, you see, it’s more than 60 years. And no answer in sight.
    That’s because it is a philosophical question and is not too easy to answer with science.
    Maybe the quantum-field?
    Maybe the soul?
    The awarness-unit?
    The energy creation unit?
    (Words are words are words are words.)
    I don’t really care, because what I know is that the e-meter reads represent different patterns of resistance (only the free needle or F/N is free of resistance).

    Why do OT’s who have had so much auditing to reduce “charge”, and thus resistance, still have high TA’s?
    People are able to create some energy and keep it in place. Based on beliefs (considerations) or just because it’s fun (joke).
    But I don’t know about whom you are talking. It should be looked at on individual basis.

  126. Cece, as I’m sure you know, in the course of his research LRH sometimes discovered that what he had thought to be the case wasn’t, and then he himself revised what he had written earlier. That Tech Dic quote is from 1961 and I know that in the years that followed there were a lot of revisions to what he had previously stated about Clears.

    One of the most important datums, IMO, in word clearing has to do with what LRH called “status” in the bulletin “The Misunderstood Word Defined”. Before he listed out all the different ways a word or symbol could be misunderstood, he listed four types of misunderstandings in general – besides a misunderstood word or symbol, there could be a misunderstood concept, or a misunderstood status. And I believe the last one, “status,” would include knowing the relative time period of the data.

  127. To find something out, one needs to ask questions. To see if something exists, you theorise and then do research, look. Questions to ask wuold be, “has anyone looked for such phenomena in 60 years?”, “is such phenomena still relevant, was it ever truly relevant?”

    Watch the movie I AM for an interesting demonstration of meter readings without cans. The heart’s magnetic field is read, apparently, at least in that experiment. Do they know what they are looking at or how it works? Maybe not. Did LRH really know what he was looking at or how it worked? Maybe not.

    It seems we are all seeking to live with the truth. Question: why does it seem we only feel comfortable when others also live with our truth? If we were all fine with our own truths, there would be no need to prod, would there?

  128. Agreed, Spyros. What I get is that the Axioms are agreed-upon considerations and thus a level of “truth”. However, one Axiom states what Ultimate or Basic Truth is:

    A Static has no mass, meaning, mobility, no wave-length, no time, no location in space, no space. This has the technical name of “Basic Truth”.

    Elsewhere LRH states that this Static has the ability to postulate, and that a consideration is simply a continuing postulate. So this seems to be the totality of “truth”. The rest is just considerations that have been created by Basic Truth, which is a Static.

  129. Alanzo, there are instances where people have observed in themselves or in someone else a particular stimulus-response reaction to something in the environment. And when that “something” was detected by the e-meter and then addressed in auditing, they no longer experienced the same reaction to the environmental stimulus. Of course, you could call this merely anecdotal, which it is, but there are too many testimonials to just dismiss it. And it would be something which could be tested scientifically, and very possibly some day will be.

  130. Thanks. I did know it existed, just couldn’t find it in DMSMH.

  131. Wow, what you say makes sense. I read in a confidential bulletin (online) that at a certain point LRH wanted C/Ses to allow OT III pcs to attest as soon as possible so that they could carry on with the more advanced (perhaps more thorough or more streamlined) procedure of NOTs (my wording). But as for NOTs itself, I think Marty probably was right when he wrote that the emphasis should have been on “ability gained” rather than carrying on past that point to an “absolute” which may not even be possible, or in any case may not last. It’s possible that if LRH had lived longer he would have revised the EP of Solo NOTs.

  132. This is the link to that online source for LRH issues on the OT levels and other confidential rundowns: I think it’s helpful data.

  133. Greta, I double checked and in the COHA index under “consideration” it does give page 24. I hate like hell to give DM credit for anything at all, but I have to admit – to me, the new book editions are an improvement. So far, I personally haven’t seen that anything is missing or altered, and a lot of previous typos and other actual errors were corrected – and this cleared up some confusions. Plus, the punctuation is much better and that isn’t the minor thing some people think it is – it’s part of making a communication clear and actually adds to the meaning.

  134. Nice video, George. I didn’t see a flag in it but I did see those colors in the rainbow and in the thunderstorm sky. And every time I see your avatar, it has a real impact – more impinging than any others I can think of.

  135. spyrosillusionist

    Sure, no arguement.

    What I meant was: Isn’t it possible for one to think that something is, when it isn’t (for instance a reactive mind) and attribute it’s existence to things other ‘him’self (static), by doing stuff like thinking that it exists by itself or it’s part of the brain or whatever? Wouldn’t he then have a set of considerations about it? If so, can’t the mechanical aspects of it then (mental mass, somatics and other related phenomena in this example) follow, since considerations are senior to the mechanics of MEST?

  136. Thank you Gayle. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Beautifully written; spot on. Amen.

  137. That is why I have always felt it is best not to regard Scientology as a “religion”, at least not as a “religion of faith (or belief)”. LRH himself spoke against doing so. He conveyed to me that Scientology was an open inquiry into life, not a rigid set of dogmatics about life.

    There is no denying that he reversed himself and went against his own statements about it, in developing church policies. However, some of those intimately involved with the creation and evolution of religions and churches have always felt that any religion/church needed to have, in addition to its “inner”, liberating gnostic teachings and practices, “outer”, rigid, dogmatic, and ritualistic forms for those members who were not yet ready or open to receiving “gnosis”. MIscavige followed the Catholic model of accumulating wealth, which I believe he saw as necessary for the Church’s protection from secular forces.

    What I see playing out is the age-old dynamic tension between integrity and survival. In Christianity it was the “Orthodox” formalists vs. the Gnostics. In Islam it was the “orthodox” Islamic auhorities vs. the gnostic Sufis, who were sometimes put to death for speaking truth to power.

    Hopefully we have evolved just far enough to reconcile the dynamic to the point where we can have our cake (integrity), and eat it too (survival). If so, LRH definitely helped push our knowledge of how to navigate life successfully towards that end, in my view. Whether he was also right in setting up a rigid dogmatic structure such as the Sea Org to supposedly help promote the survival of the core helpful tech, is definitely open to question. That it somehow lapsed to the command of the likes of Miscavige, is a real conundrum to me. Perhaps it seemed like a good idea to LRH at the time, to use such a “broken straw”. I don’t know.

    But I do know that Marty, Leah, and may many others seem to be accomplishing both integrity and survival! That is reason for hope indeed.

    As another guy once said, Matthew 7:14 KJV –
    “Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

  138. You got it exactly right, here: “It is mistaking the construct for the factual reality that is the problem.”

    That is what “kool-aide drinkers”, true believers, whatever you want to call them, do. LRH is culpable to whatever extent he promoted such blind belief, however it is perfectly clear from his core lectures and writings of the 1950s, that he knew better. Back then, he lumped Dianetics, engrams, the “reactive mind” and a whole lot more, into the bin of “para-Scientology”, by which he meant constructs that were less than certain by observation.

    So it is my view that he very clearly did know the difference between those constructs and reality. There is also no question that as the scene evolved and the establishment of the “Church” became the central issue, he reversed himself as Marty actually pointed out in his first book. I think he, LRH, saw this reversal as a “Means to an end”. Whether this was justified or not is debatable. As that other guy said, “Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” Clearly LRH did not find his way “unto life”, but those means he chose to try to insure the long-term survival of his work must have seemed like viable options at the time. Don’t forget he was under pressure to make those kind of decisions and set overall policies for the organizations quickly.

    So you have identified the problem very accurately, but I don’t agree that LRH acted as he did out of a lack of perception. I think he made some decisions and acted against his own principles at times for the sake of expediency because he thought those means were justified by the ends he envisioned. But in the end this contributed to his eventual downfall. This takes nothing away from the value of his core work from the 1950s and 1960s at least. He seemed to do OK as long as he was sticking to his research line. He stumbled apparently, when he went into the uncharted territory of quickly establishing a world-wide network of “churches” (code for “organizations for the preservation and delivery of the tech”). I don’t even disagree with the “religious cloaking”; if Buddhism can be cloaked as a “religion” in the Western world, why not Scientology also?

  139. I certainly don’t think of you as operating off of “held down 7s” and I doubt Marty does either.

  140. Definitely with you on that Mark. I am not far from you and we
    have a delicious fall here too.

  141. spyros, my understanding is the e-meter reacts to the presence or absence of “mental mest”. In other words, mental image pictures have actual mass, energy, etc which create the impedence of the e-meter’s electrical flow.

    There may well be a finer level of “thought” the meter does not react to.

  142. martyrathbun09

    I did not realize you were in the class of those who reacted ‘hysterically’ as I wrote in the post. You are apparently hoping for something that has already come to pass. A year ago I gave up trying to convince Indies the deed was done; few apparently want to stop boxing with shadows. Perhaps that is another Scientology construct that is tough to shake – seems there always has to be an enemy and somebody to be afraid of and victimized by.

  143. Moving On Up at its best. Thank you!

  144. This may prove interesting to those with more specific knowledge than I have.
    Apple has received a patent to allow access id from one’s heart-beat…not the magnetic field, but related. There is also a schematic included in the article…

  145. spyrosillusionist

    Yes, that’s about what I think too.

    I don’t know everything about mental masses. But I think that finer thought would simply be thought independent from the past, and thus original and free. That’s quite some something, if you consider that all data that we have and use stem from the past (or else it’s not REAL data. Just some overimaginative fool’s illusions….just mocking 😛 )

  146. Beautifully said Gayle, you summed it up for me!!

    Marty, I dont agree with the direction you appear to be going, but you sure get some interesting comm going. From day 1 Scientology has always made perfect sense to me, it explained things that felt right and worked out in my life. The fact that the church wanted more or less total control of me hasnt changed that, I can see that now and that is due in large part to your blog, especially early on, so thankyou for that! And that has been the last big piece in the jigsaw and paradox that has been Scientology for me. Interestingly since that cog, past wins came flooding in.

    Funnily enough, even reading your blog makes me more aligned with the tech. I relook at bits of tech for the situation under discussion. The criticism for instance of the e-meter, I can only shake my head in disbelief, remember my use of it and think, any one who has really used one know they damm well work, its a no brainer.

    So my attention is now exterior, on other dynamics. Im in the physical universe, other peoples dynamics conflict with mine and so there are barriers, but its a game. And if thats my construct, then so be it, Im very happy with it. But its interesting how it confirms what LRH was saying even when I had next to no idea what he was talking about.

    What I would like to see in your blog, is more on what are the rightnesses of Scn and especially Ron and not the over the top church way of doing it. But just give the guy a break, you said yourself he had been under attack virtually from the time Dianetics was published up till the time he died. But this is your blog, your universe and your rules prevail.

  147. Marty: ” Perhaps that is another Scientology construct that is tough to shake – seems there always has to be an enemy and somebody to be afraid of and victimized by.” Just today I watched a David Hoffmeister (a facilitator of the Course in Miracles) YT video that, IMO, goes very well with your comment Marty.

  148. Enjoyed the video Cece! Thank You.

    We are all born into a fully furnished “box”. This box is fully loaded. It’s got values, philosophies, ethics, morals, belief systems, goals, purposes, a complete genetic line and so on. It has rooms and hallways galore as well as both trash and treasure. But…this box is a labyrinth. It is a trap and it was made for us to keep us distracted. To keep us from discovering that we are the ones behind the curtain. It’s a prison without bars – The Truman Show! We don’t awake outside the box. We awake inside the box then find our way out.

  149. Actually, a very similar concept to the Clear Cognition appears in Buddhism. There is a Tibetan book called “the book of clear realization”. It discusses that cognition extensively. Of course it does not have there the LRH definition of a Clear. I would not be surprised if he copied the clear realization from Buddhism. I do not know if there is a state of clear, but I do know that there is a clear realization, and it does change you, oh so subtly.

  150. Well, Valkov. I admire your post.

    If you want to justify a religious leader going against his own teachings and ideals, the teachings and ideals he set for others to follow at such great expense to their pocketbooks and to their family’s survival and to their own good word to others they tried to recruit into Scientology, then have at it.

    I admire your loyalty to a man who did not return his to you.

    You are obviously a good and loyal man, as are most all Scientologists.

    L Ron Hubbard? With his billion year contracts and house mortgage prices for the religious services that he based on unannounced reversals he knew he had made – as laid out in your post?

    Not so much of a loyal guy as you, I’m afraid.


  151. Love it when you rant 🙂

  152. And as LRH said about Scientology in PDC 18.12.52:

    “That’s why there are so few who will ever learn this subject. Really, there are very few out of all the beings there are.”

    Val, you have written some brilliant posts today!

  153. “At risk” is kind of relative. The Sea Org Staff in Clearwater think they are at risk on the street alone there. Even in broad day light. I mean, that is really heavy. It’s a state of mind. They are not allowed to walk alone, only with two escorts. That had to be the most hallucinatory fear I have ever seen imposed on another human being.

  154. I mean, here they are. The only dead bodies in town are traced back to the Flag Land Base. Between suicides and their day care centers for crazies, elderly staff left neglected and dying wherever they stash them. And they are afraid to enter the street alone in broad day light!

  155. Sure it sounds possible.

    Not only possible but like the dwindling spiral. 😛 🙂

  156. Mary Rathernotsay

    “You should let go of even the most profound insight or the most wholesome teaching…” This sounds like valuable advise I agree
    but then the fearsome vacuum….!
    What then; does the story have an ending or just a series of new beginnings? It feels like hiking the Appalachian trial. Climb one peak and descend and start over, then over.
    Only there is no Katahdin!
    I always wondered why The Bridge had a terminus, seemingly.

  157. Valkov and Spyros, it may be that “the finer level of thought,” as Val put it, or thought that is “independent from the past, and thus original and free,” as Spyros said, is what LRH was talking about here:

    “Thought is the highest level attainable. It is of two varieties; one is clear thought established by will which is from 10.0 up on the tone-scale, to well above 40.0; the other is thought established by counter-efforts as in homo sapiens and governed entirely on a stimulus-response basis. The first could be called self-determined thought; the second could be called reactive thought.

    “Self-determined thought expresses itself as will and consists of the making of
    postulates based on evaluations and conclusions. Will does not exist in time when it is at this level.” (*Scientology 8-8008*)

  158. I loved your answer, SKM.

    Your reference to Jung was very well received, and all your other open-ended points where there is seemingly no answer to the mysteries of life were well taken, as well.

    However. If Scientology is a science, as its name implies, then all these unknowns that you are willing for yourself to operate on, and upon which people are being charged money and others are signing billion year slave contracts on, these unknowns should be addressed with hard facts at some point.

    Don’t you agree?

    So, when, exactly?


  159. I don’t know – it might depend on how your read that EP. I can read it in rather inspiring ways as relates to “Life is in you today and you make your tomorrow.” But I haven’t done OT VIII and Geir, who did it, had another interpretation of that EP:

    “OT 8 is a short level, usually taking about a week to complete. In the theory part you learn that many of your memories of past lives that has come up in earlier auditing sessions are in fact not your memories. Most are memories served to you by body thetans having had those experiences. On OT 8 you do an auditing procedure that let you sift out which past life memories are yours and which are from other beings. The end result is that you learn who you have not been and that you are ready to learn who you have been (presumably on the next level or so).”

  160. Gayle aka TroubleShooter

    If you think that my sincerity was “hysterical” then I failed in my sincere and heartfelt response.

    I can’t help but wonder if your path demands complete agreement to what you say or if you must exclude those like me who enjoy the experience with the tech without the fixed ideas and consistent observations on a via that those doing cob’s bidding and tapping their feet to his drum do.

    Can you allow my viewpoint to co-exist with yours? I thought you were heading away from fixed and solid views of things that prevented observation. If you read what I wrote you would see that there was an effort to reveal to you a world that your writings increasingly don’t allow. I described it fully above so won’t reiterate here.

    If the day were to arrive where my pcs no longer made gains, no longer won on the processes, didn’t have life improve and find new experiences to enjoy, didn’t want anymore auditing I would walk away, will walk away.

    I haven’t had that happen. It’s as much what you do say as what you don’t that makes me feel you either didn’t read my post completely or that you simply want to purge anyone who wins with the OT levels specifically out of your life. I don’t understand that.

    A few weeks ago I went in session for a NOTs review and it was a very short review despite years since going in session. I was able to sit down the next morning and write a complete communication about the death of my son, the disconnection, my failure after more than 50 attempts to put more than two sentences down without my chest splitting and tears burning my eyes. For four years I tried yet on this day those words flowed on to page and in 15 minutes I completed what I felt was a good communication, finally. That was a freedom I gained with LRH’s NOTs tech. Not some fairy tale, not some alien adventure, not some mind trapping spiritual masturbation, an effortless directing of attention to an area of needful release of attention. Now I’m free to say Collin’s name without that car sitting on top of my chest.

    Then there’s the beautiful Ingrid, did you ever read her story of being near death? She used OT III auditing like a warrior and saved her goddamned life. Should she change her observation of what she did with that technology if she wants to fit in here? That’s not going to happen and I’ll tell you it’s not because she’s got her head stuck in the sand! Now we aren’t the people whom you write about Marty and whom you are seemingly so unwilling to acknowledge. We’re the warriors. We’re the individuals who have successfully learned and applied this tech while being free beings to interact with all walks of life. Isn’t that a beautiful thing?

    My path allows me to accept you and your choices without having to call your posts hysterical communications. I don’t believe any path worth pursuing would embrace belittling – isn’t that what you’ve tried to get away from?

    What I won’t conclude, despite invitation, is that you willfully, knowingly worked selfishly to destroy Scientology while in a position of authority and are now doing so again now that your out. What I will conclude is this post. You say the deed is done. I beg to differ. Cob is still in power. That is a fact. I will continue to hope that you see it through because I believe you can Marty. If you don’t, if cob’s persistence in his quest to dominate and nullify and he outlasts efforts from the most qualified to take him out I’ll live but the injustice of it will be a heavy cross to bear.

    Much Love, Gayle

  161. Marildi wrote:

    Alanzo, there are instances where people have observed in themselves or in someone else a particular stimulus-response reaction to something in the environment. And when that “something” was detected by the e-meter and then addressed in auditing, they no longer experienced the same reaction to the environmental stimulus.

    Yes. And there are also other instances where this did not occur. I would say, given the number of people who have tried Scientology and left it, many MORE instances where what you describe did not occur.

    So what do you say about these?

    You have to count the “misses” right along with the “hits”, too.

    Right, Marildi?

    So what was going on with the emeter in these times when the emeter did not work?


  162. Flashback!

  163. And backflash!

  164. And they think the OT’s need objectives!

  165. martyrathbun09

    You are perfectly free to practice your religious beliefs in peace. If you don’t think I was a factor in making that possible, that is fine with me – you won’t be the first. If your goal is to take out David Miscavige then you are on a mission not much different in nature than his. Godspeed.

  166. I think you’d be surprised at how many people “Ghost Collaborated” with LRH in his research and development of the tech.

  167. Al, what was going on when the e-meter “apparently” didn’t work could have been a variety of things. It’s just a tool that measures charge. For example, per the tech, when you have a read, the next thing you have to do is ascertain what exactly was reading. It may have been a false read, reading on something other than the item called off. Handling this, and the use of the meter in general, incorporates a lot of tech. And, yes, the tech has been misapplied, so of course there have been misses.

    But you’ve read the posts of those who have extensive experience in using the e-meter. They consider that it works in the way it is said to work. Those who don’t think so, usually have little to no experience with it in auditing others.

  168. Gayle aka TroubleShooter

    Oh I definitely think you were a factor in feeling free to audit, for me you were more than a factor you were THE factor that made me feel safe enough to audit. I’ve said it before Marty and didn’t know that it was up for discussion here as nothing I said discounted that fact. My post addressed something beyond the fact of me auditing, it was about what your position regarding it is. I do take exception to your comparing my hope which you changed to the words “goal” and “mission” to see him dethroned to being similar in nature to his mission. You can honestly write this post above and then make that reply to me? Low, really low blow and negating all of what I’ve written above Marty. You should apologize.

  169. Gayle, I can’t decide if this LRH reference from 8-8008 supports your viewpoint or Marty’s, or both:

    “Unless an individual is at a very high operating level, he conceives it necessary to use physical force and to apply MEST universe forces to MEST universe forces in order to get action, motion and new forms. His activity in the MEST universe is an activity of handling energy and his ability to exist in the MEST universe is conditional upon his ability to use force. The MEST universe is essentially a force universe, a fact which is, incidentally, antipathetic to most thetans. One’s ability to handle the MEST universe is conditional upon his not abdicating from his right to use force, right to give orders, his right to punish, his right to administer personal justice, and so forth. We are presented in the MEST universe with a crude and brutal scene wherein gigantic forces are in pressure against gigantic forces and where the end of all seems but destruction. Paradoxically, in the MEST universe, destruction of form only is possible, since by the law of the conservation of energy, the destruction of actual material objects is impossible, only conversion being attainable.

    “In the MEST universe ethics seem to be a liability, honesty is all but impossible save when armed with force of vast magnitude. Only the strong can afford to be ethical, and yet the use of strength begets but the use of strength. In the MEST universe we are confronted with paradoxes upon paradoxes where behavior is concerned, for behavior in the MEST universe is regulated by stimulus-response and not by analytical thought or reason. The MEST universe demands of us complete and utter obedience and agreement on the penalty of extermination, yet when one has agreed entirely with the MEST universe he finds himself unable to perceive it with clarity.

    “In one’s own universe, on the other hand, honesty, ethics, happiness, good behavior, justice, all become possible.

    “It is one of the operations of the MEST universe that it is a jealous universe and those who are thoroughly imbued with the principles of the MEST universe have even as their best efforts the goal of eradicating one’s own universe. A control operation begins early in the life of almost every man, whereby his imagination is condemned. His own universe is not imaginary, but it may be said to be so and if his imagination is condemned, then he loses his ability to garnish the hardness and brutality of the MEST universe with hopes and dreams. When he loses this he becomes a slave of the MEST universe, and as a slave he perishes. His road to immortality lies, then, in another direction than in the complete subservient agreement with the MEST universe and the handling and conversion of its forces. This is a matter which has been subjected continuously to test and it is intensely surprising to people to discover that the rehabilitation of their creative ability, their own space, their own images, rehabilitates as well their ability to confront the MEST universe with a strong and ethical face.”

  170. “What I won’t conclude, despite invitation, is that you willfully, knowingly worked selfishly to destroy Scientology while in a position of authority and are now doing so again now that your out. ”

    Despite whose invitation? That sounds like an invitation to hate. I know there are a few fellows running around these parts handing those out. And what invitation are you extending here with this maliciousness which appears to be a sugar coated S.P. declare? While plugging some group only identified as , a web link.

    If you wanted to be straight up you could also publish or at least share with Marty, all of the reports that have hit your lines about him. Obviously you weren’t working side by side with him so when he was in a position of authority, so you must have reams of natter and rumors on your plate.

    Marty has been on the front lines for years with his face, voice, life and home address. Who is the entity behind a website called and why aren’t they down in Texas handling YOUR religious FREEDOM to PRACTICE without your life being ruined with hit squads from David Miscavige?

  171. Oh let me barge in here to say that in my view what will ultimately take Miscavige out are 2 things: 1. Exposure of his actual reality, and 2. Flourishing and Prospering per LRH. Many are engaged upon just these things, and the wave is growing and when it crashes upon him it will drown his warped world.

    Marty, Mosey, Mike Rinder, Karen #1, BFG, Jenna, Geir, Leah Remini, Gayle herself and many other active auditors, Independents, ex-Scientologists, Anonymous, now even ABC News, book publishers, Tony Ortega…. why, the list has grown virtually endless, are all contributing to the co-creation of this wave of destiny.

    Some no longer need “the raft” for themselves, but continue to carry it for the sake of others. There is a good and honored title for these kind of people in Buddhism. And really, in Christianity too.

  172. Geeze Christ it is like O.S.A. sent a hit squad in on this thread! Turn the heat up!

    I can hear (those famous skype briefings now)

    NOTICE! Any OSA plant out there that CAN send someone over there to kick Marty during the days leading up to October 06, it’s an ALL HANDS!
    All hands get on the net to stir up your UNKNOWING followers case and send them over here to unmock him! This is an ALL HANDS! Every moment must be spent stirring up people’s cases and getting them to TEAR DOWN MARTY RATHBUN! We’ve got some GOOD PLANTS out there in the Indie movement (notice they never post here themselves as they have all been busted) and you all need to stir up HATE ANIMOSITY and ENEMIES towards Marty and send them over there to TEAR HIM DOWN! We are counting on you! Make every action count!

    Who the FUCK is sending you people over here right now? Don’t tell me. Just have some kind of cognition alright? The person that is on your lines PUSHING you to attack Marty right now is WORKING FOR OSA. And YOU are being used for their “DIRTY TRICKS”.

  173. spyrosillusionist

    I think both pro SCN forceful supporters and anti SCN forceful enemies never got what it was about. They got the surface stuff, but missed some essential stuff. And no, I don’t think it’s all about words. If ones clears the word ‘Scientology’ in the tech dictionary he will get some general idea, but he wont know what it is. It’s even worse with ‘thetan’. I still understand more and more and discard old ideas connected to ‘thetan’, and I’ve been involved with Scientology since ’94 (first book read). And old stuff I have read, make different sense to me now.

    In the Church the hostile, right ones who usually held high posts and criticised most others constantly, didn’t understand much. I saw that in action. They said ‘Ron said blah blah blah’ and they parroted a line or two and ignored 1000 lectures. Some critics grossly misinterpret too. I read -for example- in some christian page recently how LRH supported Crowley’s ‘do what you will’ and told others to do what they want at the expense of ethics. OK, that never happened. Actually former Church members have been complaining about too strict ethics. But that’s what some understand when they read ‘self determinism’.

  174. Al, thanks for the usual rather small-minded and somewhat mean spirited back-handed compliment about my supposed (“simple-minded” is implied, is it not?) “loyalty” to LRH.

    I suggest taking a step back and looking at your own construct of LRH as you think he was, and comparing that to all the available evidence of what he did and accomplished, good and bad, in his life.

    Personally it seems to me your construct of him is kind of a one-dimensional villain. It fails as a construct because it does not account even nearly, for all the known facts. Take a look.

    The things you say about him are largely moralistic judgements that do not come close creating an understanding of his actual motives and accomplishments.

    And anyone who presents a more in-depth picture, or attempts to, is dismissed by you as simply “loyal to Hubbard”.

    By the way, have you read Marty’s latest book yet? It’s eye-witness stuff.

  175. “And the solo-auditor will assiduously go on confronting the bank that no one can speak about, directed every step of the way by his solo C/S (case supervisor), solo D of P (director of processing), Master at Arms (Ethics Officer), ad infinitum. In other words, it is no longer ‘auditor plus individual is greater than bank’, it is more like ‘individual plus C/S, plus D of P, plus MAA, plus the Sea Organization, and the 5th Sector cavalry might have a fighting chance against the inter-galactic forces of evil that constitute what is wrong him.”
    Marty. That is just priceless!

    My inside joke used to be: Do Scientologist expect to eventually exteriorize holding the hands of their Auditor, EO and C/S? Will they be taking the e-meter along for the ride too?

    When you really think about it, is just completely ridiculous.

    And it is not that I want to suppress workable tech and make it disappear.

    It is that Scientology makes a mystery and a burden out of that which is natural to a being.

    It is that Scientology demands total devotion and abject dependency of that which is easily communicated and spontaneously experienced by anybody willing to do so.

    The raft IS NOT the other shore. The raft IS NOT it.

    Why some people have such a hard time with this?

  176. That said, Marty, Monique gets through this next chapter, and the most of us are fully aware of the burden she is carrying for ALL of us who wish to practice or learn or go to an auditor without having to experience domestic terrorism and domestic abuse, when she gets through this, I would not blame her one bit for packing the two of you up and vanishing somewhere down in Fiji. Letting the “ctitics” and the people hiding hiding behind web sites who are NEVER on the FRONT LINES to take any of the heat (because they are all working for OSA) be the ones to take up where you left off. Trust me, it will get real quiet . We will then have to depend on Tony Ortega, to lead us into further freedoms.

    Because as soon as you drop off they will head over for Mike Rinder next and dump on him until he has had enough too.

    Honestly, it is like some people think you are politicians who are taking home some kind of paycheck for the constant abuse and you OWE it to people to answer mail and report to them!

    It is fitting these attacks falls under the subject “Crossing Over”.

    You get people out here, they think for a minute they want to be Independent. They they turn right around and cluster up with a group to MOCK UP the SAME madness all over again.

    Crossing Over will not be possible for a lot of people. They get to the middle of the river and tide pulls them right back under.

  177. Thank marildi! You are no slouch yourself. I am really impressed with how in depth and detailed your knowledge of Ron’s work is becoming.
    A little echo of Gurdjieff in your PDC quote. For perhaps entirely different reasons, G. thought that few would or even could avail themselves of any teaching that leads towards higher awareness:

    “Gurdjieff further claimed that knowledge, especially esoteric knowledge, possesses all the characteristics of materiality and, as such, is finite and cannot be freely distributed to everyone. This higher knowledge, to be effective as a spiritual nutrient, needs to be concentrated and “preserved among a small number of people and not dispersed among the masses.”

    No egalitarian, he. Yet history seems to prove that for whatever reason, not that many avail themselves of the opportunity of increasing their knowingness. I do think LRH attempted to expand that reach to more people.

  178. From “Edge of God”:
    The first verse of “Edge of God”:

    “By some accident of innocence
    grass glows with first being and
    the boy who is now an old man
    still sees without eyes into the
    heart of things.”

  179. Do you see this? It is actually a bilateral contract.

    A contract is an agreement having a lawful object entered into voluntarily by two or more parties, each of whom intends to create one or more legal obligations between them. The elements of a contract are “offer” and “acceptance” by “competent persons” having legal capacity who exchange “consideration” to create “mutuality of obligation.

    Everything promised in this waiver by the Church is a legal obligation in exchange for a donation. Forget that it is called a “donation”. It is an offer which is accepted by the Church based upon PERFORMANCE they promise in this waiver.

    Do you know what breach of contract means?

    Do you know what makes a contract voidable?

    Do you know what makes a contract enforceable?

    Do you know what contracts can not be enforced?

    A bilateral contract is an agreement in which each of the parties to the contract makes a promise or set of promises to each other. You can read the promises the Church is making in the contract they give in exchange for a donation.

    On this waiver the Church makes promises IN EXCHANGE for consideration (donation).

    Consideration is something of value given by a promissor to a promisee in exchange for something of value given by a promisee to a promissor. Typically, the thing of value is a payment, although it may be an act, or forbearance to act, when one is privileged to do so, such as a donation.

    In addition to those elements of a contract:
    A party must have capacity to contract
    The purpose of the contract must be lawful
    The form of the contract must be legal
    The parties must intend to create a legal relationship
    The parties must consent

    What makes a contract void voidable or un enforcable?

    Mistake (such as non est factum) Non est factum (Latin for “it is not [my] deed”) is a doctrine in contract law that allows a signing party to escape performance of the agreement. A claim of non est factum means that the signature on the contract was signed by mistake, without knowledge of its meaning, but was not done so negligently.

    Incapacity, including mental incompetence and infancy/minority
    Undue influence
    Misrepresentation or fraud (cough)
    Frustration of purpose (hello)
    Such defenses operate to determine whether a purported contract is either (1) void or (2) voidable. Void contracts cannot be ratified by either party. Voidable contracts can be ratified.

    So, for all out there that think they have NO recourse as a result of signing this bi lateral contract with the Church, this is just not the case.

    The promise made in writing by the Church of Scientology on this contract is the promise to expand the religion of Scientology. Not it’s real estate portfolio. The RELIGION.

    They have breached contract with every person they have contracted in with in exchange for donations.

    It is simple contract law that these “donations” given, in exchange the Church’s promises to expand the religion, should be returned upon request based on simple contract law.

    The IAS has contracts also with every person that exchanges a donation with them for their promise. These are verbal and implied and even legal contracts publicly announced.

    This is plain as day on their web site:

    “Membership fees in the IAS are invested in the dissemination and expansion of Scientology”.

    Scientology is a religion right? A religion only expands in numbers of the people attesting they are part of that religion.

    Now, David Miscavige has had his agents, Sea Org Member, contracting with consumers for three decades and amassing huge bank accounts. How does he get away with breach of contract? By enforcing a code from the ethics book by members of the RELIGION, that says they must not comply with the demands of civil law.

    I hope this spells out this game and it’s instruments, agents, and main broker David Miscavige. And helps you understand your rights.

    Be aware, that this small section of the ethics codes for the members, was with held from the U.S. Government when the Church was going for tax status relief.

    Now, the U.S. Government CONTRACTED with the Church, Offered tax exempt status based on information the Church gave the U.S. government. But they with held the information in the ethics code that denies a member the right and strips his duty, to comply to the demands of civil law. So, there was fraud and misrepresentation, which also makes the contract they have with the U.S. Government for tax exempt status VOID.

  180. That would be this section of the ethics code:

    Under SUPPRESSIVE ACTS (That which will get you expelled)

    Delivering up the person of a Scientologist without justifiable defense or lawful protest to THE DEMANDS OF CIVIL OR CRIMINAL LAW.

    The Church makes and breaks contracts with consumers (It’s customers ARE CONSUMERS THAT ARE CHARGED FOR EVERY BOOK AND SERVICE) and then expects the consumers to be quiet about it or otherwise expelled from the Church.

    This locks them right into a GPM.

    THIS is how David Miscavige earns a living. He convinces everyone to live beyond the demands of civil law.

    THAT IS WHY THERE ARE NO POLICE REPORTS! IT is against the RELIGION. The next time someone asks about where are the police reports, or there are no police reports, please explain WHY. Is it against the religion to call the police.

    Under SUPPRESSIVE ACTS (That which will get you expelled)

    Delivering up the person of a Scientologist without justifiable defense or lawful protest to THE DEMANDS OF CIVIL OR CRIMINAL LAW.

    How lawful is it for the U.S. government to grant tax exemption to a group of people who will be punished if they rise to the demands of civil law?

    This is VITAL INFORMATION. File it.

  181. Lastly, whenever David gets called into court his attorneys direct everyone’s attention to his position as COB RTC. He has ANOTHER POSITION called COMMANDING OFFICER OF THE SEA ORG. And by it’s Org Board and Coomand charts, it is CLEAR that every Sea Org Member is acting as HIS AGENT.

  182. Meditation on the oiliness table. Now there’s a picture.

  183. Whoa, in re-reading what Geir wrote in the above, I see that it is saying something very different from the first quote of his I posted. Here he wrote “…ready to learn who you have been” – which is not at all the same as the other quote “…interested in finding out who I am”.

  184. Looking over the responses of several highly trained and experienced people here, it struck me that perhaps what Marty is saying, is that the construct of high priest is not needed, at least after a point.

    It must come as quite a shock to the high priests. One thing is true in this world – one day, your profession, no matter what it is, will be made redundant by some new-and-improved version or completely new invention. You can be rigid or flexible, it is your choice. You can take Marty’s choice of words personally, or realise he is simply provoking a response – and then look at that response in you.

    What is so bad about change? LRH said we shouldn’t change, yet did so himself willingly. If you are not willing to build a better bridge, why? Do you give him so much credit and yourself so little? It seems like Marty has moved up a little higher while others prefer to maintain their altitude. What is it you fear? That he will steal clients? Are you in competition with him? Then you would also be in competition with any other practice geared toward personal and spiritual improvement.

    Scientology will stand or fall on its own merits. If the indy movement is not growing (and I have not seen a repetition of the booming 70s, despite 30+ years of indy movement), then perhaps it is not because it is being “supressed by the CoS” or because “society has gone downhill since then”. Perhaps it simply lacks what it takes.

  185. Yes, I’m familiar with this. Thanks.

    Scientology is a series of bait a switches, with Scientologists accepting it as “reality” and having “VGIs” and “wins,” as they go from dangling piece of bait to dangling piece of bait.

    The stunning part is that if Hubbard had not become old and sick, and had lived to be 140, as some Scientologists thought he would, or at least to 100, – healthy and active and working away – there would, right now, be a Third Wall of Fire, and more levels, and the Orgs would be full of people chasing the latest pieces of dangling bait.

    So what is Miscavige to do? No more bait! From what I hear, he’s telling “OT 8s” that, as “single unit beings,” no longer infested with, and confused with, “BTs,” they need to re-do the Grade Chart, THEN they’ll be “OT.”

    And, believe it or not, there are people who have “VGIs” on this idea.

    P.T. Barnum would be proud.

  186. Beautiful post/comment, Gayle. I’ve never met you but I love you already. Would like to converse with you further.

  187. If the proposition that the universe is here by agreement only (LRH) and the if the proposition that there is no such thing as time (contemporaries of Einstein concluded this) then everything material, mental and maybe spiritual too, is a construct (unless I misunderstand the concept). Many of us grow up on the construct that “mother/father knows best” until we cross into maturity, abandon that raft and realise that mother/father was merely doing her/his best and maybe made a few mistakes along the way. But the construct served us long enough to get to maturity, and then it becomes redundant. Our constructs serve us until we move past their use and we ultimately find the true simplicity of everything. Its as if we have been spinning our whole existence and we just need to use the constructs long enough for the dizziness to stop, to find that standing still without the construct is not difficult and we won’t fall over. In the end it might all be very simple. But I agree that if the construct is not abandoned eventually – there is no moving on to a time-and-matter free universe – just spinning.

  188. Letting go:

    You have posted some sensible words there.

    You are right in saying that LRH said (usually said): LRH said we shouldn’t change,

    The problem is that most people are only intelligent enough to:

    – argue to defend the status quo,
    – argue to parrot,
    – argue to defend their overts,
    -argue why or how something better cannot be done or should not be done,
    – argue to prevent better things from done,
    – argue to defend their ignorance, incompetence, and stupidity, and right to be that way.

    That is why great minds and great spirits have always been persecuted, condemned and even crucified on this planet.

    But LRH also said in the article: How to study a science, in New slant, for people not to parrot, but to question what he said and think for themselves.

    He often talked out of both sides of a point.

    In times of being confronted by the overwhelming entheta of a group and resulting frustration, (succumbing) he would have to say things, that the low theta, low toned group could understand and accept and do, from their level. Anything more than half a tone level above, would not only not be accepted, but would cause them resist and boil over.

    Then in articles when he was out of the “entheta pressure” of the group, and he was free to think right, he would write the higher theta data for the record.

    Those kinds of higher theta data are interspersed through out his writings.

    Those with the eyes to see, the ears to hear, and the mind to understand, will find them.

    I know from my own experience, that is often what happens, when in the presence of more entheta than I have theta, that I inadvertently say or do things I know are wrong. Then later regret it.

    That is the nature of this universe.

    For everything intelligent mass, there is a mass of more entheta.

    The mass of entheta of this planet is much greater than the mass of the theta.

    That is why it is so hard to make meaningful progress on this planet.

    This planet is a trap and a prison.

    It seems evident that the only way for theta to succeed on this planet, is for theta to dissolve or transmute entheta to theta by teaching, and clearing.


  189. martyrathbun09

    Well put.

  190. The Devil is in the details. Thanks, Oracle.

  191. Until we EACH can see that when someone says X and we get a visceral feeling in our gut and feel the compunction to defend our IMAGE/BELIEF/LIFE … we have miles to go before we sleep. MILES.

    Marty’s blog has been his way of walking his walk and talking his talk. And he’s changed and changed and changed.

    Does he not have that right?

    Does it mean that my path, my thoughts, my dreams are wrong?

    NOT unless I think so. But Marty never said so.

    He just said — here’s my path. What do you think?

    And the howling began.


    And IF you feel offended, your feelings are hurt, your life work has been thwarted figure out WHY you feel that way and WHO you are trying to defend.

    A self? A profession? A co-worker? A dream? A spouse? A past? A future?

    I’m honestly extremely sure that all of the above AS well as anything else you might add are just … illusions … they are RELATIVE reality. And impermanent. Why box with shadows? Even if they are your own.

    I’ve read recently in my third book by Father Richard Rohr – “power, prestige and possessions keep us from Christ” (page 62 Simplicity)

    And to those of you reading who are firm disbelievers in Christ and perhaps god … perhaps it’s time to at least start looking.

    And if you follow modern Catholicism – you’ll see an amazing similarity to what is going down in the Church of Scientology today.

    For example — Pope Francis while loved by millions and even those outside of the church he leads … has his detractors. Those who want the status quo. Who LIKE a JUDGMENTAL GOD and therefore a conduit (the Pope) who holds tremendous sway over his congregations.

    I’d suggest trying not to be so “offended” and self righteous and start moving towards a GENUINE desire for a world without war (includes each other – DUH), criminals and insanity …

    To Marty and Mosey — may you continue your own paths, may you continue to have the love for each other you so clearly have and may you PREVAIL in your suit against those who would silence and harm you.


  192. Good points, and you know what? Every profession has CONTINUING EDUCATION. David Miscavige has REVERSE education. He cancels the certificates of everyone professional and makes them START over again!

    Look at how Marty was attacked here for CONTINUING HIS EDUCATION in Philosophy!

    How did some Scientologists turn so fucking Hillbilly? Hubbard said “We seek evolution”. You mention evolution out here and you are hit with verbal buck shot. It’s got Hillbilly written all over it.

    Seriously, the ones that have been the hardest on Marty have been in my home. I have met them (and funded them). Mile High Hill Billy Nation. Give them a fishing pole or an soldier uniform and they are set to go!

    Marty has used himself, and now his WIFE is using herself, both have used themselves as HUMAN SHIELDS! For YEARS. For OTHERS.

    This doesn’t have anything to do with religion. This has to do with simple reasonable social intercourse. And some people are just not up to speed on that. If it don’t smell like squirrel gravy and grits they ain’t gonna eat it.

  193. Pete, that might make sense if not for the fact he got audited right up until he died.

  194. The product of religious fundamentalists / extremists:

  195. A wonderful comment Wendy! Have you ever seen the sci-fi movie Solaris starring George Clooney? The movie really does a good job in demonstrating your statement…”Our constructs serve us until we move past their use and we ultimately find the true simplicity of everything.”

  196. Just one more little tiny comment …

    If your knee-jerk reaction to my post above is — WELL – OF COURSE SHE thinks like this. She is an out-ethics woman and I know HER crimes.

    Congratulations. You know my mistakes, foibles and upsets. And you know them BECAUSE I TOLD YOU ABOUT THEM.

    Not because you are clairvoyant or remotely omniscient. You know them because at the time I thought of you as a friend.

    This could easily apply to many of you so don’t worry about who specifically I am talking about.

    Caio bella. Or as is said … bless his heart …

  197. O.K., you see Wendy Williams, she has never even done a comm course in Scientology. She recognizes Leah Remini for her bravery on National television.

    And then you get LONG TERM Scientologists who are trained out here, KNOCKING Marty in the DIRT when he has been doing the same thing Leah Remini has been doing FOR YEARS.

    How do you explain that to yourselves? Please answer this question. Because it looks like Wendy Williams has more sense than some of our “elite” in Scientology.

    I mean, there is no other answer.

  198. Hello Alanzo,

    no, not necessary.

    There is no science in the world which is based on absolute truth.
    As an engineer you want to have a workable and consistent framework.
    Can science explain why gravity works?
    Or the source of electricity?
    There may be different theories, but I’d like to point out that science is a very limited way of knowing. But however it may be, we use gravity and electricity in our lifes.
    The hard fact is, you don’t need to know all about the “why” to manage the “how”.

    Be assured that I myself am concerned about the people who have been victimized by the Scientology Organization.
    Bad things have been done out of confusion and suppression.

    It’s your good right to concentrate on the negative aspects as long as you know what is true for yourself.

    BTW. you have an inspiring avatar.

  199. Dio, your comment prompted me to have a look at arguing, conflict, anger, disagreement. It seems that we never really argue with, getting angry about, disagree with or experience conflict with anything but our interpretations of what we perceive. We don’t do any of the above with an actual fact.


    Is it the planet that is a trap and a prison or is it our beliefs in what is, what was and what will be, that seems to hold us in this perceived hell of more and less, life and death, good and evil?


    I believe that theta is a fact while entheta is an interpretation.

  200. I love you too much. A little bit of encouragement from you sends me onto number ten volume. I do miss your company. You are just one of the most sincere and honest people I have ever known. You mean well .A benevolent King if I ever met one. XXOO

  201. “What I am about to impart is pretty much guaranteed to lose me friends and readers. But, I’ll go ahead and share the idea”

    Given the above from Marty leading into this post why are you surprised by the reaction? Marty isn’t, he knew it was coming.

    While your enthusiasm to protect Marty can be admired he does this to himself. He pokes people in the eye with this stuff and then stands back to watch the mental pyrotechnics that follow. I am surprised at your surprise.

    OSA is not in here. Marty is here and those who disagree with him are here as well and that is the simplicity of it.

  202. Lets just say: Your a repairman (Ron) and you get called to a house (PC) to fix the toilet (MEST Bank). You take care of it and the customer is happy. But you discover that the sink is corroded, the shingles are rotting, there is a leak behind the washer and mold is growing, and the locks on the windows are broken leaving a break in likely. Do you say “If I show him all these problems he will think I’m a con man”, or “I should tell him this and give him an estimate of the cost”. Would you spend 17 hours and a thousand dols. of your own money, and charge him only to fix the toilet?
    Now, lets make it interesting. The original repairman and company owner (Ron) retired (died) and the new owner is a crooked SOB. It so happens that the company you work for is the only one in town and they charge $300 per hour. You like to fix things and finally get pissed off and start your own Co. (Ind. Scn.) The owner of the first repair co. has lots of rich friends and lawyers and tries to run you out of business. etc. etc. etc.
    But the guys house is still falling down and HE DOESN’T KNOW HOW TO FIX IT.
    I have been a technician for a long time (houses and PCs) and I can tell you there are a lot of things to fix in these old houses. To make it worse, people have been screwed in the past and don’t trust any repairmen. I don’t have all the tools needed to do all the repairs, but I go to Home Depot when I can and get an additional saw or drill. Also I discuss with friends often about the best new ways to stop that squeak in the floor or how to shore up and strengthen the foundation and prevent sagging of the doors.
    Marty is now in the business of fixing botched repairs and is doing a good job. But what this town really needs are lots of competent honest repairmen to get this city in really good shape. I have seen pictures of what a beautiful shining city should look like and have made a few repairs to my own house. But I have crawled in and around it and, damn, there are a lot of things to fix. There are several competent repairmen around but there are several (a few that advertise on this site) that just want to slap a coat of paint on the soffit and simply don’t understand the technical details of properly tearing down a wall, filling cracks and putting up crown molding.
    Hope this little metaphor helps explain the current state of things.

  203. Stupid people are our ruin. Over and over and over again. Who/what has the purpose to be stupid? Many. It is fucking spooky. Yes just look around at the volunteers. “I am stupid”! Like I said long ago, I would rather live with an EVIL intelligent person any day of the week than a stupid person. Because you can reach inside of an evil intelligent person and present reason to them and they will turn right around and get real. You can preach reason to a stupid person 365 days days a year and they just do not get it. Stupid people can be made evil real quick. And you can not fix them. Like trying to teach goldfish how to breath out of water. I know it is politically incorrect. But this is an underlying ruin. And David Miscavige has learned how to profit off of stupid people. If you are working for David, I mean you.

  204. Oh, by the way, the original repair company really hates Marty and others for pointing out shoddy workmanship and outrageous prices.

  205. Well let us let Gayle decide for us and carry the torch from now on. She can arrange all of the legal, collect all of the runaways, organize the attorneys, because, really, nobody but her is really able to carry the torch.

  206. Marildi –

    Here’s more on “observational selection” for you.

    An overwhelming majority of people who have tried Scientology have left it. A majority of something like a factor of ten, by most counts. This huge population of people is probably the most missed fact by the “Scientology WORKS!” crowd.

    Don’t get me wrong. Scientology DOES work – sometimes.

    observational selection, also called the enumeration of favourable circumstances, or as the philosopher Francis Bacon described it, counting the hits and forgetting the misses (e.g., A state boasts of the Presidents it has produced, but is silent on its serial killers);

    And here’s more from Carl Sagan’s “Baloney Detection Kit”

    Always love discussing Scientology with you, Marildi.

    Don’t take any wooden nickels….


  207. Touche —

    Well said.

    Stupidity per LRH is a result of overts. Whether I believe this or not isn’t I have found that people who don’t possess the wherewithal to LOOK and step back are dumber than bricks.

    God bless them 🙂

    (to those who aren’t from the south — google “god bless them”)


  208. Yes. I did read Marty’s latest book, and I loved it.

    You make a good point about my construct of L Ron Hubbard having been one-dimensional in the past. But, believe it or not, I am still learning about him as time goes on.

    Yes. Even ME.

    For instance, the datum that LRH audited himself all his life, and especially when he was deathly ill, has informed my viewpoint of him recently. I used to be torn between whether LRH was crazy or evil, or both. Since learning about his auditing himself his whole life, I have been able to make a decision on that and it has informed and fleshed out the dimensionality of my viewpoint of him.

    It is by continually staying in contact with Scientologists, and discussing and debating with them that keeps reminding me of the good in Scientology, and the good in Scientologists, too.

    The human mind wants uniformity in its views of things. If something is bad, the mind seems to want to make it ALL BAD. If something is good, the human mind wants to make it ALL GOOD. Even good and bad themselves seem to be constructions of the human mind.

    But as you and I know, life itself is not like this.

    The truth of Scientology, and of L Ron Hubbard himself, is BOTH THE GOOD AND THE BAD.

    That is what I continually seek to remind myself of as I go through this life.

    I am seeking to live with the truth, just as I think we all are.


  209. Gayle aka TroubleShooter

    You don’t know me Oracle but it’s appears to me that you’ve taken on the hat of attacking anyone who doesn’t flow compete agreement toward most everything that Marty says.

    You I know don’t have my experential track. I don’t believe you were ever on staff or trained. My life, my career was staff, in pursuit of my purpose I made decisions and sacrifices based on my trust and belief that of course Marty was one of the most brilliant stars in the sky. I imbued him with that because of my own love for what, what policy if applied would cause anyone who read enough of it to believe what the purpose of the S.O. was and his regular speaking roles at events. What I loved was making auditors, getting new people through Life Repairs, completing grade chart steps and making Clears. I sacrificed and I out-created and I persisted in doing so for you, for my children, for my staff, for the S.O. and for the Aims of Scientology.

    It ended, I had to leave the best group of people I’d ever worked with. Some of those staff were as close as family could be. Then one night in 2008 the rug was ripped out from under our feet leaving us, myself and loved and dedicated staff, in complete tornadic confusion and despair. Suppression from above had reached down and pulled me out like I was a weed causing myself and those in my org and field such shock at the unfounded and senseless yet apparent and blatent suppression of it – the mystery engulfed the space like a black hole with such enturbulation and and was yet held in place by robotic indifference to the group-wide destruction by the very S.O. who is there to oversee ethics???? oh my.

    A skip now to 1 1/2 years later when I watched my first “entheta” – I softly stepped downstairs to prevent disturbing my sleeping boyfriend to watch the video of Marty of the St. Pete TImes Truth Rundown series. An article I discovered when buying a newspaper earlier in the day. I knew with my expertise with the tech that I would easily ascertain if he was lying…and I concluded he was not. The puzzle pieces of my own life crumbling around me over the last year and a half began to fall in to place. The very statement I gave to the last two S.O. execs who came to our home to attempt to recover me back to Flag’s AO. The late night visits to our home stopped, the banging on our outside walls, windows, surrounding our home in numbers to keep me a part of a group I didn’t even recognize. Like the moment the man turns in to a werewolf. Another on the chain of shock was added by learning through his and others’ whistleblowing that my group was in the grip of such suppression that it hurt, I hurt, my body hurt.

    I’ve had my own trip to hell but I came back; like so many who have experienced similar phenomena in learning of the magnitude of betrayal; who have felt the helplessness to penetrate the suppression effectively, believed the Bridge was gone and in my case believed I’d never make another auditor again.

    The spiritual upset of what has transpired has gone from a cauldron of boiling oil shooting fire balls in to the sky to what it is for me today. My ability to communicate and have affinity for Marty is as unlikely to those I trained and trained with as can be. I’ve supported him, I’ve forgiven him and I’ve expected him to make things right. To recognize his role to such an extent that he embraced as any warrior with honor and courage would – the removal of the man who diseased and destroyed an organization and lives of countless people, good fucking people, valuable, caring, trusting hard working dedicated individuals like me. One doesn’t need to refer to LRH’s ethics conditions to slavishly conclude that a person who has done bad things needs to make restitution for it. That moral code has existed as far back as I can remember. I didn’t place that yolk on Marty. He did.

    Today I have no malice or buried hatred for what he did and didn’t do and which has served him this platform that provides him now with a blog that is audienced by those who sought answers and a healing. I’ve privately forgiven him and accepted his apology for the role he played in a personal experience AND apologized to him for my contributions to it as well. A sane and caring exchange from a man who like us all has and continues to move forward in life despite the horrific experiences that link our lives.

    That invitation to regard Marty as someone who hasn’t changed and is in fact an SP comes from those I left behind and love so dearly, from those who left and have been confused by generalities and vague reference to harm they did to him or Mosey; from those who have had new mysteries created by his rug pulling actions and casting them aside like objects. All in the name of moving up a little higher.

    I’ve had many a conversation wherein I’ve defended Marty or bowed out of discussion because there seemed to be no point or willingness to accept my viewpoint that I placed such value on him and his actions that put me, an auditor, back in the chair. The safety he provided me through his early years on his blog of exposing cob and his methods and madness; Marty gave me the environment where I felt I could once again audit and Mike gave me the first opportunity to do so.

    I feel an allegiance to both of them. I’ve seen what they’ve gone through from afar and have seen the very men I thought I was working side by side with for decades proudly and fearlessly. In the face of disagreement I continue to see them as casualties like we have been of a greater suppression. I have duplicated how it could be that they too thought they were doing the right thing and that they too had their own experiences of that rug finally being ripped away or in their cases maybe they withstood that ripping up till the point where it simply had no more thread left to pull. They are both who I thought they were all along; good men driven by a duty they felt they were upholding until they couldn’t any more. Their lives were perhaps more torn apart than mine because of their highs and lows experienced by being that close to such a suppressive source.

    I care about them both and want nothing but the best for them. I want them to be able to live their lives happily and with the comfort of love of family and friends. They deserve it. Marty has endured what I consider to be an effort to drive him crazy during the years that he stood on the mountain top and challenged cob to confront him. Along with his actions was a healing that occurred for hundreds if not thousands of us who had no voice and he provided it. I’m grateful to him for that.

    That he now has evolved to a point where he assumes this point of judgement and distance from LRH and his body of genius work – ok. But to do it to such an extent as to abandon, no severe his connections to people who have supported him – to discover himself through a new and higher evolution of spiritual growth that what, requires that he belittle those and that which we all want – a spiritual journey that feeds us? How could a higher place involve this kind of destruction? It can’t for me be accepted without saying so – an asset I’ve had for a very long time.

    I appreciate your support of Marty’s every word Oracle. I also appreciate those who don’t agree with him as they too are part of his and your life and you seem to reject it and like a swatter to a fly strike fast.

    The amount of healing, of change, of growth and of renewed love and relationships is so great if Marty were up to the task of seeing this through to fully unravel the curtain that cob hides behind. Perhaps the burden is to great. Perhaps the responsibility unwanted, rejected or disagreed with completely. If I don’t tell him how I feel he’ll never know and that I can’t live with.

    Love, gayle

  210. Monte,

    Quoting you:

    Dio, your comment prompted me to have a look at arguing, conflict, anger, disagreement. It seems that we never really argue with, getting angry about, disagree with or experience conflict with anything but our interpretations of what we perceive. We don’t do any of the above with an actual fact.

    Is it the planet that is a trap and a prison or is it our beliefs in what is, what was and what will be, that seems to hold us in this perceived hell of more and less, life and death, good and evil?

    I believe that theta is a fact while entheta is an interpretation.

    End of quote:

    It depends on from which position on the tone scale and on which direction you are disagreeing or arguing.

    If you are disagreeing or arguing to pull down, towards the bottom of the tone scale (destructive) or from above trying to pull up or lift up towards the top of the tone scale, (constructive).

    Efforts toward the bottom would be entheta, and efforts towards the top would be theta.


  211. Amen. And funny too!

  212. Gayle all I have for you is admiration after a communication like this.

    You are the product that LRH was after all along. You are the person he had in mind while he toiled to bring Scientology into being

    God bless you and I hope to meet you some day.

  213. Sorry but I got this one in the wrong location………..

  214. +1 on your first post! Great analogy.

    (On this one, I think you meant to say that the new company hates Marty and others… Right?)

  215. I love reading this blog. I’ve come away with some of my best, most life-changing realisations. All because of what Marty writes and how everyone responds. Really fun, and I thank you all!

    You know, I had a thought. Perhaps we’re just way too serious? I guess that’s the nature of change and disagreement. But take the video of Wendy Williams that The Oracle posted. One cool lady, and she’s got some humour.

    Yeah, I think we could do with some humour or with taking it lightly and not as a personal insult. Would be kinda nice.

  216. Hi Gayle, thank you for sharing some of your moving story.

    A question occurred to me while reading. It’s a rather personal question, perhaps, so I won’t complain if you don’t answer it. What I’m curious about is, when you see a person, listen to them tell you about their life and problems, can you do so without understanding them through LRH’s definitions? I mean, could you listen to someone like a psychologist would or just like a friend would? Or would everything I say, were I to talk to you, be evaluated and assessed according to what you learned from your work with the tech?

  217. As for listening to the tapes, I’m sure I have a ways to go to catch up with you. 😉

    I would say it’s pretty clear that LRH tried to reach more people. That’s why he expressed himself in so many different ways. And even though his attempts to hit the reality of some sure did break the reality of others, I believe he understood (and delineated for posterity) the very reasons the majority did not avail themselves of the opportunity for knowingness – which is one big way he stood out and surpassed many other seekers of truth. And to his great credit he gave it his all to handle the reasons people are too trapped to reach for knowingness. He described it once as being like trying to help a water buffalo out of the quicksand.

  218. His point about the water buffalo is that you will be attacked!

  219. When looking at the “misses” we need to take into account all the variables. That’s the area where a person might be taking some wooden nickels. I think we can agree on that much!

    And I like you too, Al. 🙂

  220. Letting go,
    Does it really matter which “language” or construct one speaks in? This isn’t to say that other constructs don’t, but LRH made the following observation that I think you would agree is a valid one:

    “There is no such thing as a relative philosophical truth which is safe if it does not approach the actual composition of the subject matter it addresses.” (“The Road to Truth” lecture)

    And the philosophical truths in Scientology do in fact approach the actual composition of the subject matter addressed, as shown by the workability of the tech they underlie.

  221. Spirutal Beings have the ability to create an idea. And they have the ability to put this idea somewhere. And they have the ability to pick up those ideas that are somewhere.
    A little sample: I put the idea into my environment that I am not to be treated badly. Thus no one ever did have the courage to gang bang sec check me.

    You see, ideas that are put into the environment are very effective. That has nothing to do with „intention“ or „power“ or „force“. You simply put the idea there. That’s it. Any OT can do that.

    But the difference from person to person is how far reaching that idea is. Some people can put an idea onto one object. Some can put the idea into one building and some can put an idea into the planet earth.

    L. Ron Hubbard did put onto earth his idea. Like others in the past. In addition to that he wrote a lot of words. But those words without the presence of the idea around cannot be understood anymore. You read the words now and you remember the time when the idea had been around. You notice the difference.

    L. Ron Hubbard did change his idea. His idea he put onto planet earth is no longer there.
    Thus his words cannot be understood any longer. Maybe he some day puts his idea back into planet earth.

  222. Well, it explains it to you and the other believers in Hubbard.

    However, some of us don’t want “repairman Ron” messing with our “plumbing.”

    You seem not to know it but, for some of us, Ron the repairman (and Bridge salesman) has a credibility problem.

  223. SKM


    You said: “I don’t really care, because what I know is that the e-meter reads represent different patterns of resistance (only the free needle or F/N is free of resistance).”

    Just a small observation on that point. I believe that you had it right in the statement, right up to the first bracket. What you have put into brackets actually is counter to what you said before them.

    By my understanding, an FN is simply another observable (through the motion of the needle) variation in body resistance. The free flowing motion of the needle would be approximating the characteristics of that variation in resistance.

    If there were NO resistance the needle would be unresponsive, at a TA of zero.

    This brings up a few questions relating to the “facts” or “constructs” regarding different base resistances (dead body?) for male (5000 ohms) and female (12500 ohms).

    Is this even true? How many were actually tested, or was this simply some assumption of LRHs? Did the resistance change in ratio to the distance the current had to travel through the medium (body), as it does with most any other medium? etc. etc. Has this statement of Ron’s actually added an arbitrary that may be limiting the value and use of e-meter assisted auditing?

    I do not believe for a second that you can test any living body’s resistance, and then make statements about a dead body’s resistance, other than that it is likely to be different. Living bodies would seemingly have a whole added active electronic component to them compared to dead bodies. Personally I would postulate that every single living cell is capable of altering its resistance and perhaps even creating electronic flows and phenomena. And what about various other postulated levels of active entities that may be having some influence upon the body that they influence?

    Lots of questions. There are almost more questions than answers.

    Luckily one does not have to know the details of the mechanics in order to use the phenomena detected by the e-meter, to assist one in addressing a PC.


  224. marildi, you have struck me so far as someone who uses LRH as their primary reference point. Perhaps I am wrong? However, re-read my question to Gayle and you will find it is not about language at all.

    Perhaps you in turn would agree that the beliefs one holds permit one to see some things, and not see others?

  225. I have no idea where you got the idea that Ron said you shouldn’t change. He never said anything like that. Consider: An unchanging graph is Emergency – stasis is unsustainable – so sayeth Ron. Consider: The true cycle of action: Create. Create-create-create, create-counter-create, Nothing. There is no: “Create. Stay stable in exactly the same state forever.” Consider: Grade 3 is dedicate to Change and the ARC Breaks associated with them.

    If he said anything, he said that you should use the tech as written, and that you should duplicate what is there, and not invent something else in its place. Don’t obsessively change things. Duplicate what is there.

    Use the tech as written…. before you decide to lie to me and say “it didn’t work.” I see people who cannot listen, cannot duplicate, and who need to be explained to time and time again every freaking day. And who do something other than what they were asked to do, who then say “you lied to me! It didn’t work.”

    Now, Ron’s flaw is that he set himself up as the ONLY source, and so any change to the tech had to come through him. However, he did layout a process for changing the tech, which is to do it via pilots and measures. He just didn’t pass the hat. So, naturally, DM took the hat, for which he is insanely not qualified.

    That is very different from saying “Ron said we shouldn’t change.”


  226. Hi Miraldi

    Just want to throw in my two cents here. Bear with me.

    Here is an example of a “construct”:

    In medicine they have had some success with what I believe was called “imaging”. As I remember it, it works like this, as an example.

    A child has something attacking their body and making them sick (perhaps a construct in itself). The “operator” gets them to imagine ( or perhaps outright tells them) that what is wrong with them is that there are a bunch of “bad guys” invading the child’s body. These “bad guys” are pretty strong, and are doing a lot of damage. BUT, the child can send in an army of “good guys” well armed, and on shining steeds, that are strong enough to defeat the bad guys. There will be some fighting but the child has to keep the “good guys” fighting, and chasing down these “bad guys” until all the “bad guys” are dead.

    The child works at this…. It is a miracle! The child starts getting progressively better until eventually no trace of the disease is left.

    The creation and application of a “construct” apparently produced a favorable result. But does that mean that the “construct” was “true”? Most people would not believe that the little girl actually had soldiers on steeds hunting down and killing “bad guys” in her body.

    So I offer that the workability of something is not necessarily due to its apparent truth. Just because an expected result occurs, that doesn’t necessarily mean the the “construct” upon which it is based is “factually” what produced that result.


  227. I thought the sea org is unincorporated? Where does that leave him, legally, as CO SO?

  228. “Do Scientologist expect to eventually exteriorize holding the hands of their Auditor, EO and C/S? Will they be taking the e-meter along for the ride too?”


    I’ve wondered about that, too. I think one small problem I encounter occasionally is that Scientology is used interchangeably to mean the auditing tech, admin tech, corporate structure, cruel and heard-hearted MAAs, suffering in the SO, abuse by DM and the SO, fund-raising, IAS, wins… depending on who you’re talking to and what they’re talking about. Makes it hard to understand each other at times. But you are absolutely right. No matter what we’re referring to, it is not the raft.

    Thanks for saying that 🙂

  229. Sorry, meant it “IS” the raft or “IS NOT” the other shore. My bad.

  230. marildi, sorry about the confusion with the names, I don’t normally post with my MR one here, different theme. Just wanted to know, did you feel attacked by my question to Gayle, or did you feel I was attacking Gayle and thus compelled to defend her?

  231. You are right that it’s my primary reference point – as a language – since I’ve studied Scientology more than any other discipline. It’s the language I’ve learned to speak better than any other – and I haven’t found a richer language so far.

    The reason I thought your question was about language was that I have observed some psychologists as well as friends essentially saying the same things LRH said but in different words. And I’m capable of expressing things in non-Scientology terms when I need or want to.

    I do agree with you that the beliefs one holds permit one to see some things and not see others – absolutely. In fact, language itself is a kind of limiter, a filter of sorts. But we do need it to communicate – until we’re up to being able to communicate by telepathic transfer of thoughts.

    However, I don’t agree that a construct, or a metaphor, has to be considered a “belief” – unless you take it literally, or in the sense of faith in something one hasn’t observed for oneself. A construct can simply be a way to express the concept of an actuality. And some do so a lot better than others. LRH’s constructs do as well or better than others I know of. So far. 🙂

  232. Hi Eric,
    Our posts “crossed in the mail”. I just wrote a comment (in reply to Letting go/Dollar Morgue) about constructs that I think goes along with what you wrote here. Would you agree with me on that?

  233. Valkov

    Here is my present take on what the e-meter reacts to.

    The e-meter is measuring resistance through the body. That is all the electronics of the tool are designed to do.

    I therefore consider that any changes that occur (aside from motion, varying the skin area contacted, etc) are changes within the body itself. Besides the e-meter there are also EKG, electroencephalogram, and various other ways of detecting electronic phenomena in the body.

    I consider it true that thoughts, impinged upon that body, are capable of creating responses, BY THE BODY, that produce the variations in resistance of the body, that are then observed on the meter.

    I do not consider that the e-meter is reading otherwise, independently, on any other electronic or wave phenomena. If it were, then one presumably would not need to hold the cans.

    I am not saying that phenomena cannot be produced on the meter without the via of the body, but you would have to leave the body out of the circuit to demonstrate it. (Perhaps TR8 could develop an ability to produce effects on the meter directly, but I would suggest that a Wheatstone Bridge would not necessarily be the electronics of choice in such an experiment.)

    Just my viewpoint.


  234. Hi Mark,

    I appreciate your response, and you understood me perfectly 🙂 I could go on blaming it on the lack of an edit function, but really I just need to read my stuff from a reader’s perspctive before posting.

    Yes, that’s exactly what I meant, don’t change the tech. Have you studied KSW lately?

    Great that LRH laid out the process for developing the tech further. This is the first time I’ve heard this. Can you tell me (roughly) where I could find it?

    Also, do you have any thoughts about the other things I said? Do you feel up to building a better bridge, do you have knowledge that the indy field is booming that I lack?

    I look forward to your thoughts.

  235. Strangely, in the end he pretended otherwise. Or if he didn’t DM did, but then why did LRH start referring to himself as source and what exactly did he mean by that? He wasn’t the first to strive for spiritual freedom or enlightenment. So source of or for what?

  236. I will add that the closer the map approximates the territory the more reliable it is to follow.

  237. Hey, in the spirit of a good clean brawl, please let me pile on here…..

    “An overwhelming majority of people who have tried Scientology have left it.”

    This is a rank oversimplified generalization. One example should suffice to falsify it: I left “Scientology” decades ago, but I took LRH with me.

    ‘Nuff said? Or does this need more explanation? In other words, I still have his books and many lectures, and still refer to and study them at times because I find them helpful and sometimes enlightening. Although I have not wanted to have anything to do with the organized aspects of it in a long time.

  238. Oracle chill out. I disagree with Marty. Is that not allowed? If I have to kiss his arse to comment on this blog just let me know and Ill be gone. But calling me osa, that really cuts to the bone. No need for name calling!!

  239. Long post, sorry.

    marildi, thank you for your very measured and thoughtful response. No, my question to Gayle essentially was this: can you let go of the constructs you have learned and practiced when dealing with another person?

    You raised a good point with language itself being a limiter. It is a flexible thing, you say one thing with all your knowledge at your grasp, and I understand something else, with none of your background and only mine to serve as a reference. These differences make life and interaction very interesting. A psychologist from a certain school might approach the questions LRH took on from an entirely different angle (and some did, in fact, such as C.G. Jung). Then again, they might combine different priorities differently and arrive at an entirely different conclusion.

    One thing I’m learning is that we live in several bubbles (constructs, assumptions, beliefes, whatever). Home, history, education, culture, family, work, friends, faith – and things make perfect sense within them. I have been wondering if Scientology only makes sense so long as you explain it and use it in Scientology. Further down on this page, I believe Mark (Grasshopper) implied if I said the tech didn’t work then I’d done something wrong. That old saw. This is very interesting. If it works, it is right. If it doesn’t, I am wrong. That way it is rigged. If the tech is supposed to succeed on its own merits, then certainly not because somebody is exhorting my failure to make it work.

    I wonder at Gayle’s response. Why did she feel addressed by Marty’s post? Does she honestly believe there is no end to holding the cans? I think what Marty is doing is bringing this tech thing down to proportion, much like other people have brought the once vaguely enormous church down to size. The tech is a raft the cross the river. It is not me and it is not the river and it is not what my life revolves around. Judging by Mike Eldredge’s response, it is a subject worth fighting over viciously, and I can’t help but wonder why.

    You can get people out of the “kick-em-in-the-balls religion”, but can you get the “kick-em-in-the-balls religion” out of them?

  240. BWBBB: I understand that it’s not something you’re looking for and I don’t say that glibly. To push one’s path on someone else is as much a misdeed as berating someone else’s path. As for believers: most Ind. Scn’ts I’ve communicated and met with do not blindly believe in Ron’s complete system. They have success or failures with some things, formed opinions and occasionally relay them to others. If we had success with something, we have enough ‘belief’ from experience gained to try something else and see if that works also. If you don’t have success with Ron’s way, find something that helps your life. What I don’t have respect for, are those who don’t work toward anything in particular. Find something, something, and work toward it. This is not directed toward you, I’m just chatting. Never could keep my mouth shut.

  241. Hi Dio,

    I don’t get out much, and don’t normally care to judge people’s intelligence. The people I do meet generally strike me as very caring and doing the best they can at that point in their life.

    However, I did see a good quote from a German physicist call Georg Christoph Lindenberg. It went something along the lines of: “Mistakes appear incredibly stupid – when others make them.”

    And do you know this planet is a trap? I’ve only been told so.

  242. I meant the SOB who took over the old company and is currently ruining it’s reputation while trying to ruin any of his former employees who are starting new businesses and exposing the crappy work of the new owner of the old company. I think I got that right.

  243. “You don’t know me Oracle but it’s appears to me that you’ve taken on the hat of attacking anyone who doesn’t flow compete agreement toward most everything that Marty says.”

    You don’t known me either. I tend to look at the big picture and how what Marty is doing effects the rest of us. Of course, I am responsible for getting five people up the bridge right now and I don’t want my auditor’s (not Marty) house burned down or he and his wife being victims of domestic abuse.

    Yet you choose to announce my purposes as small and petty and having to do with your personal disagreements towards Marty. And centered around support of “Marty’s word”.

    You say you appreciate my effort. You have no idea what effort I have put out to make it up the bridge and drag my family and friends up it also. And I don’t think you have any idea what efforts Marty puts out to audit the P.C.’s that show up at his front door either, or to make it possible for people to audit all over the world. But many of my friends in the Freezone and Independent movement are auditing DAILY now because of the sacrifices Marty and his wife have made for us.

    Whatever you have been through or whatever your ideas are about life, it is plain injustice for you to show up over here and fair game a good person who has done nothing but make the world a better place for you.
    For me, and for a lot of other Scientologists. You may not have been in the mix 15 years ago when we had to smuggle checksheet advice to our courseroom and hide in motel rooms to get a session.

    In all the good available for you to see you choose to attack. This has nothing to do with Marty personally. It has to do with ME and the people I love and I am responsible for having a fighting chance of making it up the bridge, and the fact that it has all been made possible because of the sacrifices Marty and his wife have made have made for us.

    You say you are trained and you care but your actions suggest you more than willing to cast wrong items, wrong whys, and wrong indications and it is you, wearing the hat of attacking anyone who doesn’t flow compete agreement toward everything that Hubbard says.

    Well guess what, Hubbard says injustice recoils on those who dabble in it. He said every Freedom we ever won was fought for hard.

    Your analysis of Marty’s role in all of this theater was the most viscous verbal attack I have read on this blog. That was so evil and underhanded I think it went right under most people’s head. I don’t have to “know you” to know what your condition is towards him. And doesn’t help ME or his wife or all of the auditors out here able to practice right now one bit.

  244. Stop trying to put wrong items on me. It is NOT about “enthusiasm to protect Marty”. You and I both know the only reason we can kick back in L.A. for our auditing without having CMO and OSA all over our ass is because of everything Marty has done for us, and our auditors, over the last five years.

  245. I did NOT call you OSA. I referred to OSA influences out here and it exists. There are people that go effect of them because they have no idea who they are. Saying I called YOU OSA is bearing false witness. Work on the ten commandments a bit and when you get that under your belt, try moving forward from there O.K.?

  246. Legally responsible, trust me. My family in not incorporated. I am still legally responsible for whatever goes on in my house.

  247. Marty, you really have me thinking with this post. At what point is one over the river? Perhaps after OT IV and Class 4? And after that, should one prioritize pursuing one’s goals and expanding one’s dynamics with further pursuit of Scn as a personal luxury? At what point is one making the pursuit of Scn a substitute for living fully (carrying the raft after you are over the river)?

  248. And, really I could not care less if you disagree with Marty and I have no idea why you are addressing your remarks towards me when I have not issued one single comment towards you that was an origination. I am RESPONDING to your origination towards me now. Let’s keep it real why not? You are not Gayle or Mike Elderige or whatever his name is and you are not part of the Mile High Hill Billy Crew.

  249. Hello Eric,
    thanks, but no, I am not wrong if look into electronics.
    Any mest body produces some kind of resistance to the current. Even tomatoes.
    Of course you will still have a resistance in the body, but the e-meter and the flowing current is set up in such a way that the body will produce no further resistance to the current.
    You will have a clean flow from + to – resulting in a floating needle (or a sinus curve if you draw it on a timeline – because the e-meter works with alternating current (AC)).

    Hope this helps.

  250. Gayle: Thanks so much for telling us your story. I feel we shall someday meet. I’d love to chat at length. So much I could learn. I believe that those who were able to retain their sanity after Scientology were able to do so because of Scientology.
    I was chatting with a good friend some time ago and mentioned that Scientology was a start and was not the end goal but a way toward the goal. She immediately said that it was completely finished in note form and yet to be released. She is a really good and able person and I love her dearly, but I couldn’t help but chuckle under my breath. Boy, has she got a surprise in store. In an effort to ‘help’ she reported it to HCO and I got a call. God love her. She meant well, as many other Scientologists do when someone voices an ‘opinion’. She, as many others, don’t realize how PTS they are to their Seniors and their Seniors Seniors.
    Newton and Einstein got a few things wrong and even had a few unsociable qualities, but, damn, if Ford and Edison had given up we would still be burning whale oil for light and riding horses and mules. Let’s not let a few assholes ruin it for the rest of us. As I have mentioned to Marty, some of us should get together, work out some of the kinks and turn this model-T into a Caddy. There are a few high toned, brilliant people such as yourself in just a position to do just that. I’ll be glad to join in. I don’t say that lightly. The best way to get over an old painful game is to jump into a new fun game. What do ya say. I’M PUTTING FORTH THIS CHALLENGE, RIGHT NOW, TODAY.

    PS: I rode and walked behind mules for several hundred years. I’m tired of that and want to do something better in the future. Not a Metaphor.

  251. This is cool.
    The good and the bad.

    LRH spoke about the angels with two faces, one good face and the bad face, in the “route to infinity lectures”. I am glad I listened to these lectures very early in my Scientology career.

    Today I am no longer operating on the basis of good vs. bad (or evil) but rather on the basis of beneficial and detrimental. It’s less judgemental and workable.

  252. Here in the south, it’s “God Love Em”

  253. Eric wrote:

    So I offer that the workability of something is not necessarily due to its apparent truth. Just because an expected result occurs, that doesn’t necessarily mean the the “construct” upon which it is based is “factually” what produced that result.

    This is a fantastic point.

    This should ALSO be a viewpoint to consider while analyzing your wins from Scientology.

    Scientologists are often called upon to attribute every good thing that has happened to them to Scientology. Sometimes you are called upon to do that, sometimes you point the cause to Scientology yourself – even when Scn didn’t cause it. You loved that you were a Scientologist, and you wanted everything to be perfect.

    A lot of the good things that happened to people in Scientology had nothing to do with Scientology, and everything to do with their own decision-making themselves.

    One of the most difficult parts of leaving the Church is retaining the good that YOU YOURSELF created in your OWN LIFE, either using Scientology or not.


  254. Miraldi

    Yes, “the closer the map approximates the territory the more reliable it is to follow.” would seem accurate in essence, but the tool (map) is only as useable as it is real to the user, however accurate it may or may not be. For instance, addressing a person brand new to Scientology with the construct of OT VII might get very little response. Yes, perhaps the meter reads just below the person’s awareness, but this may well be another explanation as to WHY. This may be why the charge is unavailable. It could just be that that particular construct is not yet REAL enough to the PC.

    And LRH’s statement that “There is no such thing as a relative philosophical truth which is safe ….” I would end right where I have ended it. I no longer believe that there is really any enduring safety in ANY fixed viewpoint.

    I am pretty sure that there are lots of things that we agree on within this discussion, but it would take more, in depth communication, to iron it all out. Perhaps this is neither the time nor the place to get into it all, but I am certain that I would enjoy the discussion.


  255. spyrosillusionist

    What I understand is that he implied that SCN was his, and hands off it, because it’s workable, and involving others might create chaos.

    He didn’t stop anyone from founding his own spirituality though.

    If -just if- I found a process that vanished all case in 10 minutes, I would do the same.

  256. You know product LRH was after from my view? You look at this picture. This man reaching out to help this little girl. This is product.
    I don’t care what his religion is and I don’t care if he hasn’t read the Dianetics book. This picture, this picture is what it’s about.–abc-news-topstories.html

  257. spyrosillusionist

    Source of Scientology’s theory and practice methodology.

  258. SKM… Hi

    Oops… Actually I think you will find that the e-meter works on DC. Even when you plug them in to AC outlets they still convert the power to DC volts.

    But beyond that, I do understand what you are saying. It is just a case of looking at it all from a different viewpoint. I have a different “construct” from which I view the phenomena observed.

    Please do not take it that I was attempting to make you wrong. It may have been a bit clumsy, but I was only attempting to share my viewpoint.


  259. spyrosillusionist

    You know, I’m not a friend of the term ‘religion’ either, and I used to want to see Scientology strictly as a science, no matter what others said that it was. But now, I see a liability with it being a science –that it analysed the mechanical aspects a bit too much, and some (including myself) got somewhat entangled analysing them. The more I analysed/explained why my case made me experience things, the more I experienced them –to a marginal degree. The more I analysed the less responsibility I took!

    I believe that to handle an inability to be logical is just a first step. Afterwards, one needs to trascend logic too IF he wants trascend MEST. Evaluation of data says that fact=truth. But if you apply as-isness (truth) to a fact, it no longer is. It sounds far fetched, but most auditing is based on that. You see, there can be the occasion when it is a fact for me that my stomach is aching, and I can run incidents connected to that, and have the ache disappear. But there can also be agreed upon ‘aches’ –that are called sad truths, or ugly facts. Like some say “the truth always hurts”. Well, fortunately, not. But if one keeps analysing the mechanical aspects of a condition that involves any dynamic, he creates those aspects and then he alters furtherly like he would do if he analysed his reactive mind.

    I agree that the solution is mere, direct perception. I don’t always follow that, but I do it more and more, and I’m glad for it. 🙂

  260. The ability to care about the person in front of you. When someone uses “Scientology” as an excuse NOT to care about others, they have not gotten the message and they are not a product. You get someone coming in the front door of the Church, they are out of ARC with the environment on some level maybe. But by the time they are all the way up there, they are TOTALLY out of ARC with everyone on the planet except “approved” members or people who only agree with them or think the same thoughts. As you go up the bridge in that culture you are actually expected to go out of ARC with the world. How could this happen? Oh something very simple, like people not paying attention to the math. Maybe they didn’t master adding and subtracting in high school. Math problems are the only reason people ever have a loss.
    If you can do the math, you should be able to figure out what you are giving up for what you being offered.

  261. Hi Alanzo


    If you have not isolated a correct “why” then any future decisions based on that “why” could be faulty.


  262. Some people think being a big fish in a little pond is some kind affluence too. That is backwards math or ab-berated math clouded by other issues.

    You see the man in this picture? He is good at math. He is a real estate executive and he works with figures 24/7. Many people lost their life in this mall when all they had to do was save themselves. He saved several people’s lives and walked out alive. He figures math on a holy dynamic. His purpose for being there was holy. He didn’t go to the mall to buy something for himself. He drove to the mall to save people’s lives.–abc-news-topstories.html

  263. You know who was in this mall with very unholy purposes to kill Christians?

  264. Uppity know best religious fanatics who think they are the only value to the world.

  265. The next time Tom Cruise says, “Because we are the only ones that can help”, someone needs to enlighten him, teach him, with pictures.

  266. from Wikipedia entry on ‘Stupid’:
    Carlo Maria Cipolla, an economic historian, is famous for his essays about human stupidity, such as “The Basic Laws of Human Stupidity”.[11][12][13] He viewed stupid people as a group, more powerful by far than major organizations such as the Mafia and the industrial complex, which without regulations, leaders or manifesto nonetheless manages to operate to great effect and with incredible coordination.

    These are Cipolla’s five fundamental laws of stupidity:

    Always and inevitably each of us underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation.
    The probability that a given person is stupid is independent of any other characteristic possessed by that person.
    A person is stupid if they cause damage to another person or group of people without experiencing personal gain, or even worse causing damage to themselves in the process.
    Non-stupid people always underestimate the harmful potential of stupid people; they constantly forget that at any time anywhere, and in any circumstance, dealing with or associating themselves with stupid individuals invariably constitutes a costly error.
    A stupid person is the most dangerous type of person there is.

    I had gone to Wiki to help me formulate the etymology of stupid v. stupor. The above was a complete surprise, but there ya go! Start with a question and keep awake and who knows where you might end up!

  267. And for the record, I don’t support Marty because of his beliefs. I support him because he doesn’t have a problem taking a bullet for someone else while 90% of the other figures in this arena develop hemorrhoids at the sight of Golden Rod or a staff contract. And throw their best friends and family and co workers under the bus at the drop of a hat. Just like you see them doing here on this blog.

    I know what it feels like to step in front of a gun to take a bullet for someone else. It takes caring about someone more than yourself. Not laying down and spreading your legs because someone with a uniform or the broker of knowledge or someone with a certificate of study entered the room.

  268. And anyone with half a brain for math should be able to notice the Church of Scientology has gone into a DOWNHILL MUDSLIDE since Marty, Mike and Karen LEFT THE BUILDING!

  269. Yes Marildi, I don’t deny I habitualy rip off LRH’s ideas :p

  270. Now if you’ll excuse me, I Dream of Nene just came on and then I have to get to work.

  271. sorry, this posted without the same formatting as Wiki…those run on paragraphs are the 5 Laws…

  272. Excellent post Marty!

  273. Oracle, I did read each of your posts. There is so much here that I don’t even know how to approach it.

    Please just know that I don’t have any cross-hairs placed on you. You and I just like many people have things that we can agree on and there are going to be some we can’t. No surprise there.

    Not know what I could say that would better this I think it’s best I just leave it alone.

  274. Gayle aka TroubleShooter


    That’s a really good question to ask for me LG. To answer your first question; yes. your second; yes. your third; no.

    So to expound, I don’t have a conversation with myself while I’m in a conversation with someone. I’m not sitting there when talking to a friend whose life with Jesus is as dear to her as anyone I’ve met. I enjoy our talks, our time together and always find wisdom in the things she says. When I talk to the homeless men, I’m not sitting there thinking “oh my god he’s so out-ethics and is such a degraded being.” When I talk to the wealthy man who goes where he pleases when he pleases I’m not sitting there thinking “oh if only he had a greater purpose in life like auditing” That would be living life with a constant circuit meant to filter all of life through the philosophy I’ve found so precious.

    The gradechart isn’t something EVERYONE MUST DO!!! fist-pounding belief for me. It’s something that each person has to chose to do, feel and interact in life with IF they WANT to. If someone is interested in it I’ll tell them. I don’t feel in some exalted state where judgement and condescension can reside.

    Auditor training took life, people’s behaviour and helped me make sense out it. If my friend is crying do I know she has an ARC break? yes. Can I just listen with love and interest and acknowledge her and give her a hug and offer her a stiff drink? guilty!

    I love life and it includes all of the people who have religions and faith and beliefs that make them feel fulfilled, a part of something, spiritually secure. Who am I to tell them they are wrong? Why would I?!

    I hope that answers your questions.

    Live well, laugh often, love much


  275. Gayle aka TroubleShooter

    I’m sorry Oracle but the only thing I can think of to say to you is please stop talking.

  276. Gayle aka TroubleShooter

    I will email you Mark. It will be a few days maybe due to auditing schedule but I will.

  277. T.:”Dragging the raft over dirt for miles and miles…”

    Meanwhile you figured another mile and you’d be floatin’ your boat.

    There was a smile for everyone who wanted to go the mile. And a hurrah for everyone who did it by Thursday at 2.

    Those were genuine from most staff. And probably still are.

    The problem was, T., we never really understood the definition of clear. Now we have respectable people discounting the state because… because, because, because.

    And all it took was to become cause over the creation of pictures. Be cause.

  278. Good post Aurora.

    Stupidity is the inability to evaluate data.
    Stupidity is the inability to think.
    Stupidity is not having common sense.

    A stupid person has a low amount of theta units.

    A stupid person is low on consciousness.

    Absolute stupidity is the total lack of theta units.

    Stupidity is also relative and can be put on a scale from high to low.

    A stupid person is low on the scale of intellectual evolution or intellectual development.

    A stupid person has a relative low level of degree of responsibility.

    A person with a low level of responsibility can only be given a relative degree of freedom, rights and liberty.

    Like the state or condition of insanity, extremely stupid people have to be institutionalized to protect public safety.

  279. Letting go, you seem to imply that Gayle and others should “let go of the constructs” of Scientology “when dealing with another person”. Why should they if they are using a “raft” they know from experience moves people in a direction towards the other side of the river – and does so more efficiently than other rafts they know of. This would include the “rafts” constructed by psychologists who, as you say, “combine different priorities differently and arrive at an entirely different conclusion.” Which isn’t to say they may not be doing a lot of good too – just not as much so or as efficiently as the Scientology tech, to my knowledge.

    And the reason I say this is not that I feel “compelled” to defend her (as you wrote above) any more than anyone should be viewed as being “compelled” when stating their views. Neither do I think that Gayle or people like her “believe there is no end to holding the cans.” They just know there are a lot of people who could benefit by a ride on LRH’s raft, and it’s a long-term proposition that she and others are committed to – which might seem like “no end” to those who don’t see the raft for what it is. At least that’s my take on it.

  280. Eric, you wrote: “…but the tool (map) is only as useable as it is real to the user.” I’m afraid I would have to disagree. That would not explain what has happened many, many times with pc’s who have been taken in session knowing absolutely nothing about the constructs of Scientology – yet they responded exactly as those constructs predict. In other words, it’s not just a matter of what’s “real to the user.” The tech isn’t a question of faith healing or the placebo effect – these are methods that require being real to the user. And neither of those methods is anywhere near as predictably workable. That’s how I see it.

  281. I noticed, rip-off artist. Good duplication. 😛

  282. You got that right. 🙂

  283. The person who who ruined Scientology’s reputation was L. Ron Hubbard.

    And it was Hubbard who instructed that “squirrels” be “harassed in any way possible” and “if possible, ruined utterly,” etc.

    The craziness started long before Miscavige.

  284. I’m fine with the idea of auditing, if it *is* auditing; however, when it becomes “suggestion” or “hypnosis” or “implanting,” as, for example, much (not necessarily all) of the so called “upper levels,” then I say, “No thanks.”

    Hubbard was a pretty good hypnotist, and I’m sorry to tell you that that inclination didn’t stop in 1950. It can be found woven throughout Scientology. That’s one of the reasons why sorting this out is so messy and complicated.

  285. Wow! Thank you for this reference! I am amazed that someone somewhere addressed this issue. I am off to track down this book! Thank you so much!

  286. Another analogy is: there is a contractor in town who is telling people that if you don’t use their services your house and family will be destroyed by dangerous forces.

    And then the contractor hires hit men to take out the competition.

    The contractor convinces home owners that other contractors will ruin your house and are from the planet Bongo Bongo where all other contractors learn to deceive and destroy.

    The one true “only way” contractor may fix a leak here and there, but to keep work coming in they use your lack of construction knowledge to con you into imaginary problems that you are CONvinced are real.

    After being convinced by this “only way” contractor, that he is the only real contractor, he informs you that any criticism of his work will be responded to by being removed from his client list. Then the only way contractor trains teams of thugs to burn your house down for daring to be critical.

    Sure, this all sounds reasonable to me.

  287. Great advice and received on this end with pleasure. I don’t know why I get serious in a Scientology group. Because I can walk through another group and people think I am funniest person they ever met. I have tried to translate that humor into Scientology groups and for some reason often people don’t get it. Here is a perfect example:

    Posting under Kirstie news… Everyone is bitchslapping Kirstie Alley right?

    theoracle • 6 hours ago
    She always gets grumpy when she is on a diet. Cut her some slack. It’s not about Scientology or Leak Remini. It’s all about the FOOD.
    1 •Edit•Reply•Share ›
    Eclipse-girl theoracle • 6 hours ago
    Don’t make excuses. KA has always been a mean bitch to anyone who leaves the church. She is angry that DWTS contacted Leah without KA’s approval. She is angry that the public appears to be more supportive of Leah than KA. It is not about food.
    5 •Reply•Share ›

    I thought it was hysterical. But look how upset someone got. I was joking and she didn’t even get it. That happens a LOT around Scientologists because joking is TABOO. Seriously, it is social taboo to joke around. So, people knock it off early on.

    I’ll tell you exactly when I knocked it off. I was on staff at the base and having a casual conversation with someone from another Org about Promo. They wanted to organize or mock up some gimmics or new things to sell at the book store and straddled me about any ideas I might have.

    I said, “Sure. Ron Dolls. You get these dolls in the image of Ron and you sell them at the book store. Large medium small and tiny ones to hang on key chains”.

    The horror on the person’s face was immediate. I was told I should be sent to the RPF.

    That was the last time I joked around with a staff member. You are right. People get it in their mind they are involved in a deadly serious activity and the lives of all the people on planet depend on them and people who joke are evil and if you laugh too much you are in glee or a druggie case.

    The funny twist in all of this, is that the first loss I confronted in Scientology was charge on the fact that I had lost my sense of humor.
    I mean, I handled it as the thing that was ruining my life.

    It is a very strange thing too about the seriousness in the social arena because I laugh a lot in auditing at my own jokes and some of them are very very funny. It’s O.K. to joke around and let it all fly in a session and believe me, in Scientology you can find a lot of funny things to notice. Especially if your auditor is very intelligent and witty also. You can laugh together over these conversations that would just never ever be possible to have anywhere else on the planet. And the auditing can start to feel like you really have created a universe where magical things can happen. And then they do!

    I think the subject of humor and fun is a big issue to address in this culture.

    One of the funniest things for staff was the whole military get up. Naval uniforms? Marching drills? Left right left? I mean, that was so ridiculous! So out of valence as a people. We weren’t paid soldiers going anywhere except back to our desk to push religion. That was pure hallucinatory madness.

    I think the entire purpose of those drills was to restimulate the staff.

  288. I haven’t seen it, but will now that you recommend it. Thank you for that .

  289. Good summary.

    The rockslam does not fit as a phenomenon resulting from resistance changes. It looks more like a voltage phenomenon. The “how” of that phenomenon can only be speculated on but the resistance-change mechanisms of the body do not support the rapid reversals seen in a rockslam.

  290. Marty,

    Special thank you for this post!

    I haven’t been following your blog for a while but tonight by chance I looked and found this gem. (This isn’t to say all the other posts aren’t all gems, but for me tonight this is special)

    You are so spot on that you’ve just single-handedly restored my affinity for the SC crowd/scene.

    I’ve had similar considerations but felt that there are way to many who get trapped with the raft on their heads and it was eating away at my affinity.

    That only PC+Auditor>Case, is an eval on anyone who would already be able to handle their case with a bit of guidance.

    People are different and times change. There is no one shoe fits all tech IMO.

    What would have caused some to spasm 60 or more years ago, many kids of our age confront and think with like it’s nothing as a result of space opera, good and evil, spy, assassin, monster, catastrophe, conspiracy, etc. games which are soon to be as realistic as life.

    We live in a different world.

    This is not to say that they couldn’t use the tech (indeed they need it as much as ever) but instead to say that we shouldn’t assume that they have the same issues as people had in LRH’s days.

    Transcendence makes sense because we evolve and thus the tech has to evolve with us.

    The world is a dynamic place which we attempt to parallel with our static concepts. Of course concepts are flexible to the degree one adapts to make them flexible by removing space and location content thereby making them abstract. Abstraction is what makes our static concepts applicable to parallel the dynamic world.

    It’s challenging enough on its own to parallel reality with these concepts even if one is already good at abstraction. One little fixed (static) idea is enough to poison the well of concept chains. As far as I am concerned much of auditing is essentially removing the static references from our concepts thereby allowing one to become more and more fluid.

    The last thing anyone needs is to use the tech in a way as to also create or replace fixed ideas with new ones by inflexible dogmatic application.

    (Just my $0.02)

  291. Mathew 7:6, “Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.”
    When the student is ready, the teacher will come. But Scientology’s commercialism and hard sell, the body routing, ad campaigns, etc, attempt to defy this age-old wisdom. To me that indicates that whatever wisdom and altruism the subject contained, and its brilliant founder repackaged plenty, was used as a hook for multiple purposes. Scientology, like its founder, was self-important. Which brings me to the last quote, Proverbs 16:18, “Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.”

  292. Individualism is the “blue pill” because it is an interiorization into oneself. This is what Scientology specializes in. There is much wider world out there beyond the cocoon of individualism. One needs to wake up to it. Individualism is that which is endangering America today.

    Alternative to individualism is not the hive mind of communism as Americans are conditioned to believe. The alternative to individualism is the wisdom and compassion of Nirvana. It is expressed in the link below in “The Context of KHTK.” Integrity should not be limited to the individualism of self. Integrity lies in following the eight-fold path of Buddha. It is not just getting rid of anti-social characteristics because that is just a negative gain. It is expanding out from one’s interest in self only. Scientology talks about it but it makes a mockery of it. At the base of Scientology is nothing but self-absorption.

    I have not seen anybody in Scientology achieve the Buddhist ideals. You just talk about Buddhist ideals being achieved more rapidly in Scientology. I don’t see it. Show me! All I see in Scientology is self-absorption.

    I find Scientology to be that “neo-Buddhist cult” that you are talking about. I don’t think you have any clue about what Buddhism truly is. My effort is to bring that understanding through KHTK. My understanding through Scientology is helping me accomplish that. But Scientology itself is riddled with curves starting from Scientology Axiom #1 and Factor #1. Scientology needs to be cleaned up.

    Jesus Christ was a great man. I think he understood Buddhism. But today’s Christianity is as much self-absorbed as Scientology in its own ideology. The current pope seems to flow some fresh air on to the stale and stilted ideology of Christianity. Protestant Christianity doesn’t seem to have a leader or representation.

    Mindfulness is way above the self-absorption of individualism. The eight dynamics of Scientology bow down to this self-absorbed individualism. Do you see freedom in the individuality of America? America is isolating itself more and more. It is the biggest seller of arms and weapons. It has 4% of the world population, but 25% of world’s incarcerated population. America is trying to dominate the world through force and not through its creativity as in the past. Talk about being MEST!

    The characteristic of “blue pill” is that it makes people talk bombastically but with little substance to show for that talk. Scientology represents that “blue pill.”

    KHTK is now building on the broken sraws of Scientology.

  293. Sorry! The above post was in reply to an independent scientologist, and not to Marty.

    I do appreciate Marty’s current thinking. It is how I see it too.


  294. Last night time slowed for me so that I could drink deep from this illusory watering hole of perception. Marty’s post and the generosity of all you that are commenting here has been most helpful for me. I’m currently experiencing a whole new level of synchronicity.

    Constructs can really become viable when you recognize that that’s what they are and not misperceive them to be an actuality.

    This morning soon after I awoke I found myself looking at an elaborate construct that I must have been working on in some other dream frequency that somehow had moved into this dream. Anyway, this construct had to do with Jesus being a symbol of Christ. Exploring this construct helped to clarify some perceptions for me.

    The level of synchronicity being what it is for me right now, I was not surprised that when I opened up today’s Course in Miracles lesson (# 271) the heading read: “What is the Christ?” If you’re interested, here’s a link to that lesson:

  295. Come on, Oracle. It’s been my experience that staff members have a great sense of humor. Why, my course sup. would laugh 3 times at a joke. Once when you told it to her, once when you explained it to her, and again when she got it.

  296. Very well said Apprentice.


  297. Thanks, Gayle, looking forward to it.

  298. Agreed. The good, the bad, and the ugly of “Scientology. I agree with what another poster (Letting go) said about “Scientology” being “used interchangeably to mean the auditing tech, admin tech, corporate structure, cruel and heard-hearted MAAs, suffering in the SO, abuse by DM and the SO, fund-raising, IAS, wins… depending on who you’re talking to and what they’re talking about. Makes it hard to understand each other at times.”

  299. Thank you Eric.
    I stand corrected.
    Of course.
    I will need to look deeper into the e-meter.
    I found a good reference in german, I don’t know if this is of any use for you (with a translate tool or something):

    “Please do not take it that I was attempting to make you wrong.”
    Of course not.
    Fortunatley we don’t need to become rocket scientists in order to use e-meter reads in session, locate mental mass and charged areas.

  300. MarkR,

    Re: laugh three times at a joke.>..

    OMG….LOL. ROTF….

    That joke not only made my day, it made my next three days.



  301. This post opened my eyes being all over the “tonescale” and Irratic at times. Beautiful post Still taking it all in.

    The mind makes constructs or uses them to an end, when the end is reached new constructs may be needed to grow.

  302. After rereading this string today Oracle I want to add that I showed support for Gayle because I believe overall she is trying to reach out and heal with her words more than hurt, I believe she was try hard with all of what she said in all her posts to communicate honestly. I felt she was getting short shrift.

    She is an auditor and trying to do something to help folks. I did not support her because I wanted to see her ” best ” you in some way with words. I hope you can see that. I want to do all I can to see that Gayle and other auditors get a firm footing into the field and that Independent Scientology grows. I am not at all interested in the brand the church has to offer nor to want see a remake out here of what was created there.

    I deeply appreciate you even if you feel I do a poor job of showing it.

  303. “The world is a dynamic place which we attempt to parallel with our static concepts. Of course concepts are flexible to the degree one adapts to make them flexible by removing space and location content thereby making them abstract. Abstraction is what makes our static concepts applicable to parallel the dynamic world.”

    Very well put. You’ve articulated my idea of true “conceptual understanding.”

  304. Tell it like it is, Dio. I will temper that by saying that a persons intelligence lies where his interests are. Take me to an upscale social event and I’m the stupidest redneck ever was. At a physics forum they think I’ve had the most brilliant insights. I have one friend who is usually dumb as a coal bucket but he can bore the cylinders on a small block Chevy and ‘feel’ and hear the blades when the cylinder walls are getting to close to the water jackets. Another guy I know is the funniest person I ever met at a party. 2 beers and he is quick, clever and just a hoot. But I wouldn’t trust him with a nickel layin on the counter. Yes, as a person goes down tone and further out of present time, they get stupider. But even then, we are all a soup of brilliance and stupidities.
    Well, gotta go, got to fix a mess a greens and cornbread. The I gotta saw up that red oak for a new dresser. I need to finish those magnetic calculations for continuous fusion, then I need to figure the wording on the assessment list to locate and handle that one basic evil purpose that I mentioned before that is not addressed on the FPRD. Another busy day.
    “In my observation, Affinity is the most basic and important leg of the triangle. It pre dates physical universes and all the mechanics of comm. and reality.” Quote from me.

  305. Apprentice wrote:

    Proverbs 16:18, “Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.”

    And for the Pagan version:

    “Whom the Gods destroy, they first make arrogant.”

    There are many things about being a Scientologist which make it unsustainable. The experience of most people who got involved in Scientology is that it worked for a little while, and then it stopped working like it once did, and then it collapsed on them.

    This is the “Create-Survive-Destroy” of being a Scientologist.

    I have had to unlearn so many things that I picked up from Scientology which were just totally dysfunctional.

    Some things aren’t dysfunctional, like staying in present time, confronting problems in life, completing cycles of action, “production is the basis of morale”, etc.

    What’s funny is that these are the first things I learned in Scientology, and they are the things that truly changed my life for the better when I first became a Scientologist.

    “You have ethics presence as an executive because you can get mad”, give them something too gruesome to confront, SPs and their PTSes make up 1 in 5 people around you, there are only two types of people – those who are constructive and those who are devoted to destruction, some emotions are high on a scale and some are lower, and those lower emotions are to be avoided – these are some of the most dysfunctional and destructive lessons I picked up from Scientology.

    I believe that as time went on, LRH created more and more of a cult in Scientology. But LRH, in his supreme arrogance, believed and taught Scientologists that you could be cause over something and not become effect of it. It is clear though, that as LRH was creating the cult, the cult was creating him, too.

    The whole end goal of Scientology was POWER, BEING CAUSE OVER LIFE, and NOT BECOMING ADVERSE EFFECT.

    This is not only totally arrogant, but it is extremely ignorant of how life works as a human being. What those goals have to do with spiritual wisdom is beyond me – now that I am no longer a Scientologist.

    In the end, LRH was not able to rise above human, achieve power, and avoid becoming effect of his own cause, and the cause of others. His story is a Greek tragedy, with Achilles’ heels and all.

    It’s just too bad he took down so many other good people with him.


  306. “Mile High Hill Billy Crew”……well possibly you do have me pegged correctly because even after reading this yesterday I didn’t duplicate It until today.

    Oracle I got into Scientology because I knew I was in trouble as an individual. In the intervening years since then I have made progress but I recognize I still have a lot of ground to cover. That is why I am still working at it with auditing. If you feel you see a stupid or unrefined individual I won’t argue the point. I am highly aware that I don’t know or have under control all of my past considerations that leave me in a state I don’t want to be in either.

  307. Two quotes which may add some context to the conversation. (YMMV.) Both from LRH’s son Nibs. The first from a testimony and the second published in a book::

    “Life is a game, the same as Monopoly or playing Gin Rummy. And it doesn’t have all that much reality to it, which means that you can pretty well do what you please. And one of — my father always felt that he was above the law because he had created the law. He created whatever rules, regulations, and laws to be lived by.”

    “My father was a cosmic outlaw. He shared his power with no one.
    Worshipped no one and nothing. Bowed to no one. Stood before no
    judges. But there are certain universal laws that no man is above. He con-
    sidered himself to be above the truth, and in this he was very much

  308. 2ndxmr

    Yes, I believe that created voltage phenomena are certainly a possibility. After all, bodies are quite capable of creating internal, and perhaps even external electrical flows. That would still be in alignment with the principle that it is something changing in, or with the body, that produces the phenomena that the e-meter is responding to.

    Here’s a somewhat related thought…
    It would be interesting to know if the paths that the e-meter’s voltage flows on, or through, are actually nerve channels. That might help explain the lack of a significant change in resistance between holding the cans in separate hands versus holding them in a single hand. May help to explain other phenomena too.

    And now for something “out of the blue”.

    It would be interesting to do an experiment, to see if an external being, (but not the PC himself) can have some influence on the test subject’s body, (ie. produce electrical phenomena in it) without any formal communication. Perhaps the second person, in close physical proximity to the “PC’s” body, could have ear phones on, through which the auditor is giving commands. The “PC” is holding the cans. The PC would not hear the commands. The second person would say nothing that the PC could hear.

    Would the e-meter respond to the second person’s thoughts or case?

    The experiment should include being done with someone who is a close genetic relation to the PC. Identical twins would seem to be the best genetic match. One would need to be sure to include addressing case that would be likely to be associated with the shared genetic line.

    Food for thought…


  309. Miraldi

    Yes, I understand your viewpoint, and the data is convincing… I am just one for pushing the envelope. Each of our viewpoints may account for some of the observed phenomena, but perhaps neither, or even if combined, account for all.

    Thanks for a good chat.


  310. Additionally one would also have the second person on a separate e-meter. That way you could potentially determine if the same read occurs simultaneously on both meters.


  311. Not a problem if someone wants to stop at Clear. I, for one, am very glad I didn’t. What’s more, for the last 15 years, any solo auditing I’ve done has been without a C/S, MAA, or D of P. I haven’t even used an e-meter. And it’s all worked like a charm.

  312. MarkR,


    Another good one.

    I can hardly laugh any more.

    And Marty has not let my better “tell it like it is” posts through.



  313. That would make Scientology itself a Service Facsimili

    “Moving out of fixed conditions into ability to do new things.”

    L Ron Hubbard

  314. Eric, nice chatting with you too.

  315. That has been your purpose on this thread, to stop. Stop people from talking. The purpose of the blog is so that people can exchange views.

    Disagreement is one thing. There are plenty of disagreements on this blog all year long and people manage it cheerfully.

    Invalidating thirty years of someone’s life and suggesting they are motivated only by evil intentions is using your Scientology to SUPPRESS.

    Asking someone to stop talking as a solution to a problem is telling of your purposes, not your auditing skills and Scientology knowledge.

    Why don’t you stop reading if you already know everything?

  316. Again, I did not direct this towards you. You are the second person on this thread to become offended at some comment I made that was never addressed toward you.

    You are my friend and been to my home. I refuse to engage in conflict with you because someone else stopped by this blog with the purpose to star a civil war. Even when it is sugar coated, it is the same PURPOSE.

  317. I’m late to the party of these e-meter theory comments, but a couple of things struck, on the subject of whether it is the body alone that is providing or creating the resistance the meter measures. Let me say up front I am not e-meter trained, but I have based my understanding of the theory on one central supposition – that there is “mental MEST”, and there is plain old agreed-upon MEST, and these 2 realms of creation can occupy the same space at the same time.

    Thus my understanding of what the e-meter reads indicate, is the presence or absence of “mental MEST” in the vicinity of the body, that are created or “pulled in” or triggered by the auditor’s address to the pc’s “reading buttons”. The body is in a sense just a “placeholder”, that particular being’s “nametag”.

    So evidently I base my entire “construct” of what the meter does, on a different assumption than you do.

    I have not done any Solo auditing, but in support of my view, I believe that a Solo auditor in session actually holds both cans of the meter in one hand, end to end; thus the current would not be passing through the body, would it?

  318. I can only have this conversation with you because I know you have done L12. You go back and read her post to Marty, and look for the purpose behind the words. You go on figure the purpose behind these words. This is an indication. A charge. A guilty verdict. And a very personal one. It was surrounded by a lot of sugar but this was the punch line. There is a purpose behind these words.

    “What I won’t conclude, despite invitation, is that you willfully, knowingly worked selfishly to destroy Scientology while in a position of authority and are now doing so again now that your out. What I will conclude is this post. You say the deed is done. I beg to differ.”

  319. And, “The amount of healing, of change, of growth and of renewed love and relationships is so great if Marty were up to the task…”

    These were smuggled in there between the phrases “love begets love” .
    and “My path allows me to accept you and your choices “.

    Really it might behoove you to re read Science of Survival.

  320. Al, it seems you and I actually agree on the basic points of WHAT happened. We don’t necessarily know WHY, what was behind all his decisions. LRH was as complex as any historical figure, that’s why I have always rejected any simplified explanations of why he did the things he did, and made the decisions he made. In the end historians and honest biographers with no axe to grind one way or another will write the most definitive stories of LRH.

  321. The PURPOSE is to restimulate, invalidate, and nullify.

  322. Thanks Al, for the straight post without “thought grenades”!
    There’s no doubt I have been very critical of some of your posts in the past; let me say I do recognize that your heart has been in the right place, in trying to expose and alert people to the evils of “official, organized Scientology”.

    Somewhere along the line I realized that you have a devotional thinking style and that your posts were tied together by strong emotion or passion that was understandable given your experiences in the world of Scientology.

    It seems now you have been able to digest much of that, and now I find we are more in agreement on the major issues.


    An aside about “religious leaders” – have you ever taken a close look at some of real ones in history? Muhammad (Mohammed), for example? Born into a bloody scene, he founded Islam and unified the Arabian Peninsula by warlike means.

    Or say, Mother Teresa? Wikipedia says: “Admired and respected by many, she has also been accused of failing to provide medical care or painkillers, misusing charitable money, and maintaining positive relationships with dictators.” Some who knew her have said that personally, she was a real bee-yatch.

  323. P.S. You wrote: ….if cob’s persistence in his quest to dominate and nullify ….

    Then you say to me: ….. the only thing I can think of to say to you is please stop talking…

    Perhaps you should embrace your similarities with cob instead of your differences.

  324. Let me lay out this type of sales pitch for you. Street Smart Scientology. Becoming a guru for dummies.

    1. Always begins with a tale of victim hood. The salesperson presents themselves as a victim. This gets everyone unguarded as they reach out to support and aid their fellow man. The message behind this is “I am fragile and broken, I am not dangerous”.

    You are lured in by the “vivtims” statements such as:

    I was able to sit down the next morning and write a complete communication about the death of my son, the disconnection, my failure after more than 50 attempts to put more than two sentences down without my chest splitting and tears burning my eyes.

    Then one night in 2008 the rug was ripped out from under our feet leaving us, myself and loved and dedicated staff, in complete tornadic confusion and despair. Suppression from above had reached down and pulled me out like I was a weed causing myself and those in my org and field such shock at the unfounded and senseless yet apparent and blatent suppression of it – the mystery engulfed the space like a black hole with such enturbulation and and was yet held in place by robotic indifference to the group-wide destruction by the very S.O. who is there to oversee ethics???? oh my.

    The late night visits to our home stopped, the banging on our outside walls, windows, surrounding our home in numbers to keep me a part of a group I didn’t even recognize. Like the moment the man turns in to a werewolf. Another on the chain of shock was added by learning through his and others’ whistleblowing that my group was in the grip of such suppression that it hurt, I hurt, my body hurt.

    I’ve had my own trip to hell but I came back; like so many who have experienced similar phenomena in learning of the magnitude of betrayal; who have felt the helplessness to penetrate the suppression effectively, believed the Bridge was gone and in my case believed I’d never make another auditor again.

    2, You sprinkle tales of woe with words out of the clearing course platens to conjure up up what you want your audience to feel for you.
    “Love” is a hot button. As in:

    Love begets love.

    L oved by loving.

    3. Once you have your prospective followers entranced, you speed in with a line of self promotion to conjure up respect to align with the now well earned love:

    It’s taken me 10s of thousands of hours of training, interning and application of it to others that enable me to move past the philosophical debates about whether this tech from bottom to top is absolutely effective and amazing to give and to receive. I am what some consider an expert in the technology, the use of an e-meter. My experience is what provides my view into the world that surrounds us, is us, becomes us, as it invisibly acts upon the energy of what we see, feel, hear, rearrange and are. If that experience is of any value then let me be clear that I have no need to pontificate on it.

    If the day were to arrive where my pcs no longer made gains, no longer won on the processes, didn’t have life improve and find new experiences to enjoy, didn’t want anymore auditing I would walk away, will walk away.

    My path allows me to accept you and your choices without having to call your posts hysterical communications.

    What I loved was making auditors, getting new people through Life Repairs, completing grade chart steps and making Clears. I sacrificed and I out-created and I persisted in doing so for you, for my children, for my staff, for the S.O. and for the Aims of Scientology.

    Today I have no malice or buried hatred for what he did and didn’t do and which has served him this platform that provides him now with a blog that is audienced by those who sought answers and a healing.

    I care about them both and want nothing but the best for them. I want them to be able to live their lives happily and with the comfort of love of family and friends. They deserve it.

    4. Once you have the followers under the spell and you get affirmation of their sympathy, love and respect. You go to work un noticed to remove any of the doubters through careful inval eval and make nothing out of them as to discount their influence:

    You don’t know me Oracle but it’s appears to me that you’ve taken on the hat of attacking anyone who doesn’t flow compete agreement toward most everything that Marty says.

    You I know don’t have my experential track. I don’t believe you were ever on staff or trained.

    Today I have no malice or buried hatred for what he did and didn’t do and which has served him this platform that provides him now with a blog that is audienced by those who sought answers and a healing. I’ve privately forgiven him and accepted his apology for the role he played in a personal experience AND apologized to him for my contributions to it as well.

    That he now has evolved to a point where he assumes this point of judgement and distance from LRH and his body of genius work – ok. But to do it to such an extent as to abandon, no severe his connections to people who have supported him – to discover himself through a new and higher evolution of spiritual growth that what, requires that he belittle those and that which we all want – a spiritual journey that feeds us? How could a higher place involve this kind of destruction? It can’t for me be accepted without saying so – an asset I’ve had for a very long time.

    I appreciate your support of Marty’s every word Oracle.

    I’m sorry Oracle but the only thing I can think of to say to you is please stop talking.

    …………….etc etc.

    Don’t think I understand all of this because I haven’t played the same game myself. On my WHOLE TRACK! One has to get very crafty as a slave / gypsy in the political arena. People get HUNGRY!

    But let me tell you why this is important social intercourse to understand. So we do not travel backwards.

    This is exactly how David Miscavige took control of the Church of Scientology.

    1. He got the sympathy. When Hubbard kicked off it was HIM who took center stage all alone without his fallen commander.

    2. He used the opportunity to hold out nebulous numbers to assure everyone they still had a road to total freedom.

    3. The shameless self promotion at toppling the IRS was unprecedented.

    4. He then proceeded to declare everyone that was a doubter.

  325. Alanzo wrote;
    “The whole end goal of Scientology was POWER, BEING CAUSE OVER LIFE, and NOT BECOMING ADVERSE EFFECT.
    This is not only totally arrogant, but it is extremely ignorant of how life works as a human being. What those goals have to do with spiritual wisdom is beyond me – now that I am no longer a Scientologist.”

    I seem to be falling back to Biblical references, for which I am certainly no expert, but here is another one in Jesus’s first Beatitude:(taken from on online source, both Beatitude and description of it)

    “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”

    “Poor in spirit” means to be humble. … When we are an empty cup and devoid of pride, we are humble. Humility brings an openness and an inner peace…..It is pride, the opposite of humility, that brings misery. For pride brings anger and the seeking of revenge, especially when one is offended”

  326. Marty,

    It seems that instead of alienating anyone you just turned the lights on in the room an woke up the elephants who quickly started stumping on the china.

    For every one of them, you seem to have created twice as much (or more) ARC with the rest.

  327. The world IS out of communication and do you know why? Look right here in our own group. The group of Scientologists is out of communication!
    What does that tell you? We have the policies. We have the dictionaries. We have the word clearing. We have the clearing. Yet this has been become the most disfunctional and out of communication group I have ever explored.
    Why? Because people get hung up on words (which is a form of policy, to use words as instruments) and ignore PURPOSE. You are out of communication with a person to the degree that you do not know what their agenda is. They pretend to have one agenda while running another.
    True communication is acknowledging another person’s agenda. Being open about your agenda. The critics, ESMB, the reporters, best fucking thing that ever to Scientology. Everyone’s agenda is on the table.

    When you are PUNISHED for putting your agenda on the table or sharing your agenda, you are being asked to GO OUT OF COMMUNICATION with the world.

    Sorry, that is suppression. Hidden agendas are exactly what put this group out of communication. David Miscavige’s hidden agendas are front page news every month now. There a huge flap in the Church every time one of his hidden agendas becomes public information.

    None of us should have to apologize for getting through grade zero.

  328. As for the elephants, please don’t be confused by the loud noises of the china you are cracking, instead try to pay attention to the voices trying to calm you down who are saying “It’s OK, it’s just the china you are stumping on”.

  329. A possible answer or at least direction is the Creed. Creed by definition is fundamental beliefs.

  330. Ok…..My bad, I thought this was referring to Denver,The Mile High City.

  331. Valkov

    Welcome to the party.

    I will handle your last comment first.

    You are partly correct in your statement of a solo auditor holding both cans in the same hand, but perhaps you are unaware that the cans are kept separate and stable by an insert into the cans that accomplishes this. When the cans actually touch the resistance immediately drops to near zero. This would drain the battery within minutes, and could potentially fry one or more of the meter’s electronic components. So, no, the body is always in the circuit.

    But further to your comment…
    Yes, I am aware of the construct that you are using, and I find that both of these constructs align to some degree.

    I also have come to consider that there is “mental MEST”. I consider that a being is capable of creating that MEST both deliberately and compulsively. I believe that that MEST can be “juiced up” with a fair bit of mental and “real” energy. Evidence suggests that this may well be the case.

    Where we part company a bit, it seems, is what the e-meter is actually detecting. In your construct, you are suggesting that the meter “reads” this mental MEST directly. I have suggested that if this were true, then why does it not affect the meter without the body in the circuit? It does not. It does not matter how close one is to the cans, so long as they are not both touching the person… no reads. The body appears to be an essential component.

    So… my construct is that it is changes in the body or it’s electronics that produce the needle phenomena. Mental MEST, in the form of pictures and thoughts, demonstrably can effect the meter, so my construct is that it is the changes within the body, in response to this “mental MEST”, that is actually what the e-meter is responding to. The body acts like a receiver/transmitter that appears to respond to the presence of this mental MEST.

    Hope that clarifies things a bit.


  332. SKM

    You said: “Fortunatley we don’t need to become rocket scientists in order to use e-meter reads in session, locate mental mass and charged areas.”

    Yes, fortunate indeed!


  333. I should have included that this was against the backdrop of the “Cabbage Patch Doll” craze. There was this doll that came out in limited numbers called “The Cabbage Patch Doll”. Limited numbers and it was no secret there were fist fights in the department stores to obtain one before Christmas.

    ” In one incident, at a Philadelphia-area store, an estimated crowd of 700 fought over a limited supply, biting and shoving each other, with one customer suffering a broken arm. And in Vineland, a woman was sent to the hospital with a bloody nose and facial lacerations after a fight at Dry Goods in the Cumberland Mall.

    The trouble here began after a flier advertising the dolls caused as many as 800 customers to line up at the store, today the site of Value City.

    Things were orderly until the crowd neared the Cabbage Patch display area, which quickly became the scene of a wild free-for-all.

    According to eyewitness reports in the Vineland Times Journal, one customer was trampled after grabbing some of the dolls, and the mob angrily chased a store employee seen carrying four Cabbage Patch Kids.”

    “It was the scariest thing I ever saw,” said a shaken customer. “Those people were like hungry dogs.”

  334. So, When I said the Church should create Ron Dolls………..well, you get it.

    But now that I am really thinking about it, it might have been very therapeutic for every Scientologist to have been issued a Ron Doll. Some figure they could equate with Ron that they could actually control and be cause over.

    It might have saved his life.

  335. In the OT Doctorate Course, LRH stated:

    “At any one time on Earth there were not more than about 10,000 people of a caliber, that was sufficient to do a little steering or leading.”

    “There’s only about 10,000 of them really.” – LRH

  336. Claire

    If I may….

    I suggest that this is perhaps an ethics issue. It is a personal thing that only you are qualified to ascertain.


  337. Gayle aka TroubleShooter

    Very well stated Marildi, I appreciate the fact that you understood what I wrote.

  338. Gayle aka TroubleShooter

    You might have the idea that your constant misduplication and evaluation and alteration of comm is somehow serving Marty and his blog. Personally I don’t think so. How could someone who fails to actually understand what’s written have so much to say about it and get it so wrong? You should re-read Mirildi’s post above. It was a wonderful show of understanding.

    And what you don’t seem to want to understand is that I gave decades of MY life too to the same group and had to dodge bullets every day in order to built a tech delivery team and make Clears in my org for the first time in 20 years…you underestimate the effects caused in others besides Marty and why.

    What is it that you are doing to delivery LRH tech to people? I know what I am and it’s not being helped by this blog anymore or by you. I however continue to acknowledge and grant him beingness. Which is not what I see is the op basis here or with you. So many of your posts are angre, snide, hurtful; rants that in the case of everything you’ve written to me fail to reflect what I said. It seems you think you understand one point and run with it without reading the whole communication. cob does that too. He plucks out a line of two from a ref and refuses to include the context from which that quote came and perverts the entire point made.

  339. Thanks Eric. I think it is a stretch to think that holding the cans with one hand somehow puts the body “in the circuit” in the same way that holding them in the 2 separate hands would do, where the electrical flow would be passing through the body from one side to the other. It seems to me to confirm that it is not particularly the body’s reactions to the pictures it is reading, but the impedence the facsimiles themselves are causing by being there in the same space. In fact does an auditor have to separate out to his own satisfaction whether the reads he is seeing are “body reads” like metab or lack of rest, from the reads on the facimiles?

    In fact the actual mechanics are pretty irrelevant as long as metering can be taught and used consistently, so I don’t think it matters much what exact construct you use top account for the reads, as long as they are predictable.

  340. marildi, you are putting words in my mouth, which is anything but fine. I never said “should” and never meant it. I meant “could”. Big difference and an interesting question.

    Neither did I say you felt compelled. I asked if it was the case. No need to go on an attack there.

    I understand full well there are many Gayle and you think could benefit from a ride on LRH’s raft. Other people think otherwise. Can you live with that? And can you manage to do so without saying something like “It’s their choice but I pity them”? (=isolation)

  341. Hi Gayle,

    Thank you very much for taking the time to reply. I did’t actually mean that you have a conversation with yourself while listening to someone else, but more like just seeing things in a certain way and hearing things in a certain way, due to what you’ve learned and experienced. That would be true for all of us, the question is then, can we recognise and wilfully let go of that, even if only for a while?

    Anyway, I appreciate you took the time.

  342. Perhaps Marty will do us the favour and take up the Jokers and Degraders Bulleting one day.

    I think that was the stone that killed the funny bird in Scientology. Maybe not the only one, but it must be a major trauma for many people. You can’t make fun of stuff in this group, yet must be up-tone, or else.

    My mum said she lost her sense of humour. I think she’s finding it again, now that she’s stopped policing her thoughts.

  343. Marildi, Thanks. I cannot believe I missed that in the bulletin (well I do believe it actually). Going to find a copy to re-study pronto. Thanks a bunch.

  344. Valkov

    Yes, I understand your viewpoint. Obviously our viewpoints are not fully aligned on this, but I feel it is always good to question and to re-evaluate.

    I am sorry, I am not going to answer your question because I would be answering it from my construct, and I already know that it will not fit within your construct.

    So, lets move to something that I think we do agree upon, your last paragraph.
    Although having correct data is potentially valuable in understanding what one is handling and how, the mechanics of auditing using an e-meter, if followed standardly , do seem to assist one in producing somewhat predictable results, without the need to know exactly how.


  345. (This is in reply to a comment I can’t reply to) – For the record, I said that if you don’t do a process as written, but obsessively change it or do something else, don’t lie to me and say the process “didn’t work.” Auditing is a skill. Now, if you did it right, and you did not get results, that is a different matter.

  346. Letting go, I don’t think I put words in your mouth. I clearly got that you didn’t say “should” – that’s why I wrote “seem to imply.” Nor did I think you directly said that I felt “compelled” to defend – but can you see how simply asking the question can come across like an implication or insinuation? Otherwise, why would you even ask?

    On the post, above, the implied criticism seemed stronger yet where you wrote, “Other people think otherwise. Can you live with that? And can you manage to do so without saying something like ‘It’s their choice but I pity them’?”

    Don’t get me wrong – it’s entirely your right to ask questions or express you views in whatever form. But you shouldn’t be surprised if you get back a ridge or a protest, if what you say or ask comes across as criticism of what you think or suspect is the case. And the flow you get in return is no more an “attack” that yours was, although it might not be as indirect or subtle. Anyway, the way I see it is that you said your piece and I said mine. Peace (the other kind :)).

  347. Holy Cow!!! It took me forever to scroll to the bottom of all of these comments. Firstly Marty, thank you for meeting with my Mom and Godmother last weekend. They were so happy they met you and have both been singing your praises. I hope Mosey liked the See’s Candy.
    Secondly, LOVE that quote from Buddha. I myself have let to of the constructs and moved on and have been practicing Buddhism now for over a year. It has been the one thing that had calmed and helped me through the letting go of my former life.

    For many people this is a very touchy subject. Having grown up a Scientologist I can tell you the pressure to be certain thugs was ENORMOUS. From the minute I was born practically my father wanted to put me on the meter and find out who I was and if I was a past life clear or OT. So much pressure. As it turned out, when I was 14 I did do a CCRD and attest to Clear. People freaked out. Like I was from another planet. I was one of the first kids that were of the we come back generation. The pressure to “go back” to the Sea Org from that point was unbearable. Eventually I did join. That is another story for another time.

    But after leaving, tragically and dramatically from the Sea Org via the RPF 11 years ago, I had to look at what Scientology really meant, where it really came from and what was really true.

    Doing that isn’t for the faint of heart. There are so many lies that we all believed whole heatedly, that we forwarded and perpetrated on ourselves and each other that it takes more confront at some can muster.

    It is the easy route to just think that Miscavage is the bad guy here and he has tainted or ruined the tech. And his removal will make everything better. Scientology will flourish and go about helping people. It is the hard route to really look at LRH and who he stole from, plagiarized from and how he altered many other philosophy’s into his tech that beyond really the original work of making a clear has only one goal. To make you less able and totally dependent on the false construct of this group whose sole purpose is money and compete control of you. Oh that isn’t what LRH WANTED, THAT IS Miscavage, some of you will say. I say to all of you who still think LRH is beyond reproach and is somehow holy, please, PLEASE do your research. Read EVERY book that is out there about Scientology and him and google it. Look it up int he records. The lies will present themselves.

    Then if after LOOKING which LRH says to do, LOOK don’t listen, if you still want to do all the levels of Scientology and you still believe in it, well that is up to you. This is America after all and you have the freedom of choice.

    But don’t condemn someone like Marty who has evolved beyond this tiny garden of religion and has expanded himself in a new direction. He is now more able. He is now in control of his life and causover it. Isn’t that the goal we are all going for?

  348. Cece, so glad you appreciate that point in the bulletin. And believe me, you weren’t the only one who missed it. From my past experience as a word clearer, I would say that a majority of people did. And the ones who even picked up on the part about “status” in that bulletin often had a bit of trouble working out what was meant by it. For me, besides the time period of when the data was presented, “status” covers context of all kinds. Even with regard to the “Remimeo section” of an issue, just because of its position on the page you know that it is a list of who the issue is distributed to – although that isn’t stated anywhere in the section itself or elsewhere in the issue. In fact, if you think about it even paragraphing and sequence or juxtaposition of sentences gives a relationship of data to other data and contributes a lot to the meaning – all part of “status,” per my understanding of it. 🙂

  349. Thanks. It was a pleasure to meet with your kin; and as usual, a learning experience for me too. I wish you all the best.

  350. Hey LG – Sorry for the delay in response. Well, as I said, Ron’s flaw is that he set himself up as source, so no further official research is “allowed” in the church. However, he did lay down a method he used. I don’t have exact references, but you can see it as you study Scientology – create a hypothesis, create processes around it, pilot it or test it, write up the results, and codify. Pilots were used in admin as well as tech. This method certainly is not unusual or original, it is just what he did. But, research stopped with him, which stagnated Scientology. Therefore, the only way to move forward is to break out of the straitjacket Ron created with the tech.

    That said, there is a hell of a lot of value in what is there. From my perspective, the core of Scientology was laid down in the ’50s, and refined in the early ’60s. There is a lot to learn from – but the main thing LRH left out was God and Love. One thing I found out is that adding God and Love transforms the subject and brings new life to it.

    The Indies and other folks who broke off went in different directions with the tech. Captain Bill went very, very space opera and totally believed the Galactic Confederacy story. David Mayo spun off too early and didn’t have the chops to do anything and ended up selling out in the end. The current crop of Ron’s Org, APIS folks, and other Indies are living the ’50s dream of hanging out a shingle and auditing. Not much training – there is some, of course, and good, too. There is the 3rd dynamic engram of the Sea Org and the Church – it hangs over all of us. You saw it in Lana’s and Shreff’s attempt to put a global team together – smacked down, hard, arguments, people accusing each other of trying to own Scientology, people claiming each other were not following Ron’s true tech, treason assignments, and other such bullshit. In short, the Indy group is fractured and its members still wounded.

    To my mind, Scientology cannot exist without training. You need people in real comm courses and auditor courses. Not necessarily to become full time Scientologists, but to get the value out of Scientology and avoid the “Cleared Cannibal” syndrome. If all we had were the core bridge levels: TRs, Dianetics, the Grades, Power, Clearing Course, and OT III, and just did that, and only that, we’d have something. You could even just stop at the grades and life would be better for lots of people. In other words, all we need are the missions that DM destroyed back in ’82.

    We also need a bunch of people who know Scientology debating it, and sharing research, and results. This is trickier, because you will see some weird shit come out of this – Internet auditing, for example is, to me, not auditing, and internet metering is certainly not possible despite claims. I don’t condemn the practitioners at all. But I believe in discussions about it and results shown. Perhaps I am wrong. I can see healthy debate about this and other subjects.

    I personally think we’ll get there. And we can only get there if we are willing and ready to break fixed ideas, taboos, and stop hiding behind KSW1. Remember, the tech evolved from 1965 to 1986. The tech can evolve now, and KSW1 can still apply, except for the Ron as sole source part.

    I really hate what the church has become. I really hate that people call the vicious actions people do “Scientology.” And I really hate that people have rational arguments to state that these vicious actions ARE Scientology. This has to change, and I think it will.


  351. Hi Gayle

    Thank you for all that. What a beautiful communication.
    I see a great deal of sincere love and compassion coming through in your communications. Through your communications, I feel your love and I feel your pain. You are a powerful communicator.

    I would like to share something from my own viewpoint.

    I can see that you have very high standards. I feel a strong commitment to those things and people that you align yourself with. It is admirable.

    So, how do I say this next part? Well, in keeping with your own standards, I will attempt to just lay it all out.

    You see, I see something in your communication that you may or may not have noticed yourself. In the case of Marty, you display a great deal of understanding and granting of beingness , right up to the point where you seem to have decided that Marty should follow a path that you seem to have assigned him. I am specifically referring to the issue of Marty continuing to take COB down.

    You have communicated to Marty… “You say the deed is done. I beg to differ. Cob is still in power. That is a fact. I will continue to hope that you see it through because I believe you can Marty. If you don’t, if cob’s persistence in his quest to dominate and nullify and he outlasts efforts from the most qualified to take him out I’ll live but the injustice of it will be a heavy cross to bear. ”

    I can see that this is an issue that is dear to YOUR heart. But what about Marty? What about HIS goals and ethics. Are they not a personal thing? Were he your PC would you not allow him to cognite and grow on his own terms? I am pretty sure that you would.

    How is that different if you consider him your friend?

    As an auditor I am sure that you know what happens to ARC when a being is not acknowledged, or when he is evaluated for. I understand that in a conversation it can happen on both flows. Your exchange with Marty is a living example.

    So.. what to do, that you have not already done? It is obviously not for me to say, but you do have a tech that can potentially help you with that.

    Submitted sincerely,


  352. You’re welcome, Gayle.

  353. What an interesting story about your life!

  354. I didn’t know Denver was called Mile High City. But I recently considered moving to Boulder or Denver Colorado and it was out of my league. Hardly Hill Billy.

  355. Grasshopper, why do you feel that God is left out of the dynamics? This is from FOT:

    “THE EIGHTH DYNAMIC—is the urge toward existence as Infinity. This is also identified as the Supreme Being….

    “The basic characteristic of the individual includes his ability to so expand into the other dynamics, but when the Seventh Dynamic is reached in its entirety one will only then discover the true Eighth Dynamic.”

    The last part of the above seems to go along with a detailed write-up I read by a person who did OT VIII in 1991.

    But you aren’t the only one who has expressed the viewpoint that Scientology excludes God, including people who feel that we are all One. I’d also like to hear why you feel love was left out of Scientology (core Scientology, that is). Are the higher levels of affinity not love?

  356. Gayle aka TroubleShooter


    I responded to Marty’s statement he made that the deed was done. It isn’t done. The hope for cob’s power position is no introduction of some new idea; it’s been a long term discussion and in fact a unifying hope for the majority of the people I know. My comm is an effort to say – this is important to me, my fellow auditors, the people who want LRH’s tech, who want to END disconnection, who want black Dianetics and Scn to be exposed and that will only come with cob taking the walk of shame. Marty is one of the likeliest people to do that. He knows how cob plays his game better than anyone. His affidavit gives some of that insight. I communicated what my hope was. I can hope. And I do.

    Thank you for the kind words you spoke of me.

    Best to you, Gayle

  357. Thanks for saying that, Eric. It was helpful. Think you are right about that.

  358. “You might have the idea that your constant misduplication and evaluation and alteration of comm is somehow serving Marty and his blog.”

    Right Gayle, I am retarded and a total liabiltiy to Marty and his blog.

    While you on the other hand, are brilliant, and so very very valuable to Marty here on his blog.

    “How could someone who fails to actually understand what’s written have so much to say about it and get it so wrong?”

    It just boggles the mind my retardation Gayle!

    “You should re-read Mirildi’s post above. It was a wonderful show of understanding.”

    Somehow I did Miraldi a disservice that he and I both should know about but do not. Probably we are both out to lunch against the backdrop of your wisdom.

    “And what you don’t seem to want to understand is that I gave decades of MY life too to the same group and had to dodge bullets every day in order to built a tech delivery team and make Clears in my org for the first time in 20 years…you underestimate the effects caused in others besides Marty and why.”

    I am clearly lacking in my ability to understand my own stupidity and your great value. I am just plain ignorant about life.

    Nothing . I am useless. A virus really compared to you.

    “I know what I am and it’s not being helped by this blog anymore or by you. I however continue to acknowledge and grant him beingness.”

    “In spite of it all”…that is very big of you Gayle. To grant us beingness although we present ourselves as a total liability against the backdrop of your very valuable and noble efforts.

    “Which is not what I see is the op basis here or with you. So many of your posts are angre, snide, hurtful;”

    Too many to count. I do more harm than good.

    “.. rants that in the case of everything you’ve written to me fail to reflect what I said.”

    I failed, as you point out.

    “It seems you think you understand one point and run with it without reading the whole communication. cob does that too.”

    Me and cob are probably two SP’s in a pod. Thank you for publishing that for the group. It will probably help them.

    ” He plucks out a line of two from a ref and refuses to include the context from which that quote came and perverts the entire point made.”

    That is just like both of us to pervert and alter is things. Probably because we are both DB’s.

    I hear you!

  359. Hubbard joked and degraded on people. Didn’t you listen to the tape where he made the reference “old Missus Kettlebottom”? Hubbard degraded doctors, politicians, wogs, South Africans, theetie wheeties, druggies, presidents, government institutions like the I.R.S., police, any other mental health expert, anyone who expanded on his information as a “squirrel”, homosexuals, prostitutes, lepers, media people, critics, Jack Parsons, and a host of others I barely recall. The list of undesirables in Scientology is EXTENSIVE. These were sections of the population he discounted all together. En mass.

  360. Maurice, what system or processes have you been working with? I am working to get into a condition where I could work with any system. If one is wrong or harmful, I would simply recognize it, no harm, and move on. A lofty goal but I believe worth the effort.

  361. JFYI, marildi is a she. 😉

  362. Hello Gayle. I have to say, I have some agreement on your talk about COB. One definition of a is someone who can ‘Do something about it’. Thinking that he will eventually get his and that things will work out is just non-confront. You are auditing so are obviously not wallowing in self pity or anger. Even DM could be salvaged, exposing the beautiful being buried deep within. It may take a couple or three lifetimes of amends. Maybe shoveling shitholes or something. But hell, I did that back in the mid 1600s and I was happy to have a job at the time. ‘Overcome them with love’ as Jesus said. But get them the hell out of the way first.
    Just a thought. Mark

  363. Marildi, good post. OT-8 goes a long way toward methodically sorting out your individuality, location, relationship with the mest universe, old stuck comm lines and, if done properly, is very freeing. But it falls short (no level handles everything) in bringing about a complete knowing of your full relationship with Theta.
    It’s not that you are ‘A’ God. It’s that you,Marildi, you are the entire universe and everything and everyone that has ever been. You are also yourself, an individual, wholly and completely. You are both. When it ‘clicked’ for me that these things are not at all confusing or incompatible or overwhelming, my life changed completely and forever. Affinity took on a whole new meaning.
    Perfect comm is perfect duplication over NO distance. Perfect reality is seeing everything from the same viewpoint, the same location. Total affinity is being the other person, Again, no distance. To me, now, Affinity is the primary leg of the triangle and reality and comm were ‘constructs’, invented once the idea of individuality and separateness were brought about. Arguments become different when you realize that the one you are arguing with is, in one respect, YOU.
    Love you all, Mark

  364. Thank you Gayle

    OK. I got that all now. My error in duplication. Thank you for your patience.


  365. Mark, I’ll send you a private comm.

  366. Namastè Sir, I always say get our hands on an old Dianetics Book with all the references still in it and go from there if you are a Scientologist. those references are babysteps towards greater understanding.

  367. MarkNR, that’s how I currently see it too. I could never quite go along with the idea that I am not really “me” and that we are only One. It does seem that we are One but individuals too. (And btw, IMO so does LRH see it this way, per several references.)

    Reminds me of something we used to Chinese school in the SO – the definition of a “team,” part of which was “The trick is to be an individual and a member of the team at the same time.”

    What you say about Affinity makes sense too. It’s the counterpart to “beingness,” and that’s where it all begins, as per The Factors. After the decisions to BE, the viewpoint then puts out dimension points and creates space – which is necessary to have the distance of communication and to have reality, i.e. something to agree with.

  368. Hi Mark,

    Thanks for your response. I hear a lot of people bemoan the loss of the “good old days”. And then I encounter stories of people who were kids in the early 70s (practically the old days) who were abandoned. So yes, the love was and is missing big time. You know, my grandma used to say that “the old days were nowhere near as good as people make them out to be”. People tend to glorify the past and remember the good parts. I see a lot of happy, smiling free faces on old photos, but they were young people and when I look at young non-Scientologists today, they look just as happy and carefree. Was it really the tech that did that? Or was it being in a group and the feeling of being part of something big?

    I think the 3rd dynamic engram you refer to would be called the “only way delusion” elsewhere. It’s a very charged up area. I agree that training would be necessary. Any work requires training. But – big but – see this from an ordinary person’s perspective. Right now the runway is so incredibly long as to be unsustainable. Even in co-audit – it would take religious dedication to actually go clear and beyond. Who can or wants to invest that? If one were to say, “that’s just what it takes and if you don’t have the dedication then Scientology is no place for you”, then one would also have to drop the “clear the planet” meme. Because no planet’s going to be cleared like that, not in 1000 years.

    I, for one, would be happy to see the “clear the planet” burden go. Scientology may be useful – but I actually haven’t seen it yet. I do believe gains can be had in a sane environment because I have actually experienced that environment. And judging by the guestbook entries Marty posted a while back, he actually lets people find out for themselves if and what they got out of their talks with him. For me, he’s a beacon of hope, and the only one I have on the Scientology horizon right now.

    Recently, I saw an article where the author talked about intelligent application of Scientology being okay, and I shuddered. Who gets to decide what is intelligent? Very slippery slope.

    I am happy for those who have their wins. Myself, I’m shit-scared of the fanatics, no matter the side they’re on. Most of all, though, I’m glad Marty is here to poke some holes in people’s bubbles (including mine).

    I understand that you hate that people equate the vicious actions with Scientology. I said elsewhere that what people mean by Scientology always depends on who you’re talking to and what they’re talking about. Don’t hope to repair its PR, though. Unlike Gayle, I do not believe COB is the only problem. I think it’s the only way mindset.

  369. Yes, 2ndxmr…

  370. Bingo, Simple thetan. And therein lay the problem, literally.

  371. Gayle aka TroubleShooter


    I let that go a long time ago. I did suffer at one time from the idea that everyone wasn’t reaching for the tech. That hasn’t been the case with me for a long time. One of the points I’ve made or tried to at least in the comments I’ve made in this thread is that one doesn’t need to belittle and generalize about those of us who with that upper level experience as pre-OTs and auditors continuing to give/receive it or solo it – we don’t deserve to be lumped in with some newly coined phrases that seek to pigeon hole people and label EVERYONE “hysterical”…it’s not true, it’s not accurate, it’s not philosophical and it’s not by any stretch nice. That’s why it feels as though there is simply an effort to alienate by these writings that have increasingly become judgmental. critical, degrading and condescending.

    I don’t live my life with reference to an LRH ref…?? so a week or so ago per Marty I was the hope for the survival of independent Scientology and this week I’m hysterical…?? This was not my first post where I disagreed with Marty so what’s changed? Not me. It’s like a friend is pushing you away by attacking the thing you do that makes you happy and today it means that I’m somehow stuck and want to carry a raft once I’ve crossed a river? It’s not logical. Maybe that’s the biggest reason right there to just stop participating in this blog now that I think of it.

    oh well, things to do, places to go, bypassed charge to free


  372. Gayle aka TroubleShooter

    Mark I was just telling a friend yesterday something I’ve said many times. I would very much like to take him in on an auditing program to provide him some case gain. If he would make it then great another person moves up the scale – it’s what auditors do. I have no “goal” or “mission” to “do cob in” or “see him rot in hell for eternity”…the beginning of the change that Marty and others have decided is true is that the church is dead. I’m not on that wagon. The cofs is still full of some great-hearted people and I for one would jump to the all-hands to get those on the boards of directors cases cleaned up and winning so as to provide a refreshed team to take responsibility for this philosophy and it’s delivery to those who want it. To me step one is – cob dethroned, his harmful actions exposed. Then we figure the rest out. It can’t be worse than it is now with someone calculatingly destroying LRH’s work.

  373. martyrathbun09

    Now you are beginning to act hysterical. Re-read the thread and comments between you and I. You accused me of evaluating for you. I replied that I did not believe I was because I was referring to those who acted ‘hysterically’ to my suggestion in What Is Wrong With Scientology? that people look up on the OT Level mythology as construct. My comment to you was essentially, if you feel that my current post is referring to you, then perhaps I was wrong and you were in fact one of those who reacted hysterically to What Is Wrong With Scientology’s suggestion.

  374. Grasshopper, other than my question (not a rhetorical one) about God and love, I completely resonated with everything else you wrote. The points about the importance of training, about KSW 1 and the actual spirit rather than the letter of that “law,” and the value of debate and sharing research – which would give new meaning to the “multiple-viewpoint system”. And I especially loved your optimism. I get that it was natural for you rather than the deliberate application of a principle, but it does happen to be the principle of “positive thinking,” the “law of attraction”, “you get what you put your energy into and attention on” etc. etc. All in all, I really like your viewpoint and just wanted to say so.

  375. Thanks, Marildi. This ties in directly with OT-3, Solo NOTs. Stuck, enforced, obsessed, and nuisance comm lines with those who consider their location to be near you or you to them.

  376. Marty, sorry if I’m butting in, but maybe the meaning was ambiguous where you wrote “I did not realize you were in the class of those who reacted ‘hysterically’ as I wrote in the post.” It could have been understood to mean that you hadn’t realized that was the case until now.

  377. Awwww *blush* 😛 Thanx

  378. Mark, here’s my understanding. First, according to David St. Lawrence and various posters on his blog, the entities on and around a person are not usually harmful in any way – in fact, they say some are quite helpful and enjoyable to have around. I got the idea from David that even the suppressive ones can be audited and handled. And, of course, there are other philosophers, religionists, and ordinary people who believe “guardian angels” are generally a good thing.

    The Buddha is said to have had to face off Mara and the armies of demons attacking him, which may or may not be metaphorical. Ron believed entities “just hold one back” and, as you know, on Solo NOTs all of them are to be “run off”. The plus side of that is that they are sent away in much better case shape than they had been, which seems like a pretty good idea in terms of the 7th dynamic. Marty has the viewpoint (if I’ve duplicated him correctly) that at a certain ability gained, which I gather to mean ability to handle entities as and when needed, one should end off on NOT’s auditing.

    Your thoughts on any of this?

  379. Two very interesting quotes came in my mail box yesterday and today.

    I thought it would good to post them here for some inspiration:

    Verse of day from the King James Version:

    Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

    Quote of the day from the Urantia book:

    This quote is from the third paragraph of the subchapter further below:

    these ascendant children of time have learned to feast upon uncertainty, to fatten upon disappointment, to enthuse over apparent defeat, to invigorate in the presence of difficulties, to exhibit indomitable courage in the face of immensity, and to exercise unconquerable faith when confronted with the challenge of the inexplicable. Long since, the battle cry of these pilgrims became: “In liaison with God, nothing — absolutely nothing — is impossible.”

    5. The Pilgrim Helpers

    (291.1) 26:5.1 The first of the seven groups of secondary supernaphim to be encountered are the pilgrim helpers, those beings of quick understanding and broad sympathy who welcome the much-traveled ascenders of space to the stabilized worlds and settled economy of the central universe. Simultaneously these high ministers begin their work for the Paradise pilgrims of eternity, the first of whom arrived on the pilot world of the inner Havona circuit concomitantly with the landing of Grandfanda on the pilot world of the outer circuit. Back in those far-distant days the pilgrims from Paradise and the pilgrims of time first met on the receiving world of circuit number four.

    (291.2) 26:5.2 These pilgrim helpers, functioning on the seventh circle of Havona worlds, conduct their work for the ascending mortals in three major divisions: first, the supreme understanding of the Paradise Trinity; second, the spiritual comprehension of the Father-Son partnership; and third, the intellectual recognition of the Infinite Spirit. Each of these phases of instruction is divided into seven branches of twelve minor divisions of seventy subsidiary groups; and each of these seventy subsidiary groupings of instruction is presented in one thousand classifications. More detailed instruction is provided on subsequent circles, but an outline of every Paradise requirement is taught by the pilgrim helpers.

    (291.3) 26:5.3 That, then, is the primary or elementary course which confronts the faith-tested and much-traveled pilgrims of space.
    But long before reaching Havona, these ascendant children of time have learned to feast upon uncertainty, to fatten upon disappointment, to enthuse over apparent defeat, to invigorate in the presence of difficulties, to exhibit indomitable courage in the face of immensity, and to exercise unconquerable faith when confronted with the challenge of the inexplicable. Long since, the battle cry of these pilgrims became: “In liaison with God, nothing — absolutely nothing — is impossible.”

    (291.4) 26:5.4 There is a definite requirement of the pilgrims of time on each of the Havona circles; and while every pilgrim continues under the tutelage of supernaphim by nature adapted to helping that particular type of ascendant creature, the course that must be mastered is fairly uniform for all ascenders who reach the central universe. This course of achievement is quantitative, qualitative, and experiential — intellectual, spiritual, and supreme.

    (291.5) 26:5.5 Time is of little consequence on the Havona circles. In a limited manner it enters into the possibilities of advancement, but achievement is the final and supreme test. The very moment your superaphic associate deems you to be competent to pass inward to the next circle, you will be taken before the twelve adjutants of the seventh Circuit Spirit. Here you will be required to pass the tests of the circle determined by the superuniverse of your origin and by the system of your nativity. The divinity attainment of this circle takes place on the pilot world and consists in the spiritual recognition and realization of the Master Spirit of the ascending pilgrim’s superuniverse.

    (291.6) 26:5.6 When the work of the outer Havona circle is finished and the course presented is mastered, the pilgrim helpers take their subjects to the pilot world of the next circle and commit them to the care of the supremacy guides. The pilgrim helpers always tarry for a season to assist in making the transfer both pleasant and profitable.

  380. Gayle aka TroubleShooter


    I didn’t say nor do I believe that cob is the only problem. The use of fear, manipulation, disconnection, lies – these anti-religious, anti-philosophical, anti-social tools fix that mindset to a large degree. What I said was that removing cob from his deceptive seat of power was necessary. Exposure of his criminal manner in which he created that position and usurped or prevented establishment of the checks and balances of the cofs management is capable of being taken all the way to the result of him being dethroned. That is what I believe will embolden enough of those manipulated to step away from that mindset. If one is no longer afraid of losing their family members or jobs the evaluation of information and action based upon that can be a freedom they can exercise.

    Knowing that cob isn’t the only problem is why I am so willing to be a part of the auditing applied technology to then begin to undo the problem so many participated in creating.


  381. Gayle aka TroubleShooter

    I’ve tried to explain how it is that your viewpoint is effecting me, a veteran of this game whose training has enabled me to be a part of the effective group who applies the tech and that the results speak for themselves. I haven’t felt as though you even read what I wrote Marty. Of course you don’t have to acknowledge me or what I’ve been saying here. You can treat my comm as you are but it doesn’t change the experience on this end of how that treatment feels. If this is an actual exchange going on and you are my friend then I would think that I’d see more here that indicated that you cared for it. And by it I mean the sphere of activity and results that come from the tech being applied and received from bottom to top on a self-determined basis by people who want the person on the other side of the meter or as a Solo NOTs auditor to be in control of their own universe. I’ve never taken a CS and Dofp and and and in to session with me or the grade chart with me. That might be whey I’m here communicating to someone it matters to me to be in comm with and NOT inside the implant that in very simplistic terms is what I’ve come to view the cofs as. Not the tech, but the cofs – now THAT is a construct.

    I’d appreciate it if you’d ensure that you have not confused my actions, communications and intentions with those of cob as you intimated earlier. That was like an arrow. It was one of the signs given that you didn’t read or you didn’t want my viewpoint to ME. If the time comes where you don’t want a comm line with me because you disagree with my viewpoint so much that you have no place in your life for it I think I’ll know. If I fail to observe it, please tell me straight up ok?

    Peace to you Marty and to Mosey as you move closer to the next legal step in the game of chess with a team of legal who I believe have correctly estimated you, Mosey and the legal team they face. I think that’s why – there are so many of them. Somehow they hope their numbers and legal machinations will be enough. I hope not but we’ll all live another day no matter.

    lv, g

  382. Marildi: Thanks, that helps a LOT. The idea of endless nots was a bit daunting. My goal is to reach a point where I can ‘view’ and fully examine any past incident fully without resorting to tricks such as spotting mass, without getting into trouble with ‘others’ mass. As I’ve stated in different words, I believe that the mechanics of case are secondary to basic considerations, but to be completely free of those mechanics, you must master them. Fully hatted….bad effect…….etc.

  383. martyrathbun09

    Thanks. I have acknowledged the gains attainable on upper levels, including in What Is Wrong With Scientology? I apologize for offending you personally. I am trying to help people from the inevitable pain, disappointment and drama that is Scientology when its constructs are taken literally, as Scientology insists they be taken. I will continue to do so as long as there are people – and there have been and are many – consider it serves to help them to move on up a little higher. We are not playing a game of chess here. We are paying the price for continuing to extend a helping hand, apparently.

  384. DollarMorgue

    Hi Gayle,

    I that case, I am sorry I misrepresented what you said. I saw someone on Mike’s blog (don’t remember the name) say DM was a result of the Scientology system. You would probably disagree with that, knowing it as well as you do. And, as usual, it is very difficult to prove something that did not come to pass.

    I get that with him no longer on post, people could actually destimulate. I will maintain here, as I do on Mike’s blog, that membership attrition has the most likely chance of succeeding at the moment. And it is a good application of non-resistance. I don’t know what the exact tech term would be, but it is basically about not creating a ridge. I think all parties (Marty, Mike, people who lend their voices to the blogs) are doing a good job. The insanity continues, and these blogs provide a safe place to communicate. Just imagine where we would be without them.

    Ha! Silly me. Now I have to sign off with

  385. Thank you for sharing a part of your story and your views on what exactly to look at.

    I’ll probably get burnt at the stake again for saying this, but I believe a lot of these indy fights and vicious spitting over orthodoxy is simply protectionism. Of business. Apparently, clients are few and far between and trust is thin.

  386. Mark, that was very well put. I concur. 🙂

  387. The 8th Dynamic has been defined by Ron as “everything else.” Ron recognizes thetans, and has talked about “The Big Thetan” usually in disparaging terms. If you look at the factors, it is beings/thetans who created the universe, and are the source of all. Except for his “Big Being” pronouncements, there is no ranking here. The tech does not address the Supreme Being – there is no supreme being except that Ron puts it in the creed and other places. There is no discussion of God, there is dismissal of the Supreme Being concept. There is NO God in Scientology.

    Ron’s view of the world is a bunch of beings playing around with each other with MEST. These beings created the MEST and the playground. There is no Supreme Being/Creator among them. Furthermore, the concept is that each of us has infinite potential – independent of each other. WE can be a GOD – Tone 40, complete control over the MEST.

    This is more in line with the greeks than anything else.

  388. Well, look, there were issues in the ’70s as well – the GO and its deeds, the raids, the Sea Org, the Cadet Org, the RPF. Scientology was never perfect – you can go back to the ’60s and see issues, and the ’50s and see issues.

    But there is a BIG difference between now and then, and that is that the negatives were not key parts of the culture. The environment was completely different. There was an energy and buzz that absolutely is not there now.

  389. Thanks, M! I appreciate yours, too.

    There is a lot to the “Law of Attraction” and positive thinking. There has to be a balance between real positive thinking and “magical thinking.” Trying to win the lotto by “Law of Attraction” is not a good idea, for example, but being positive, being clean, giving gratitude and love, will bring good things.

    And I know there is power in prayer.

  390. Grasshopper,

    RE: 8 D and Ron…

    I think I recall reading in scn somewhere that Ron did not address or explain the 8D because he could not measure it, or detect it. So he wanted to stay on the side of good science and deal only with things he could measure and prove. He said that he left it up to the individual to figure that out for himself.


  391. Grasshopper,

    The reason that there was more buzz in the early days in scn was because that was before there was so much damage done and before scn had such a disreputable odious reputation and therefore there were more educated people, more able, and respectable and intelligent people, even professionals in scn.

    Now, no one in their right mind, no one who is intelligent or discerning or wants to protect and preserve his reputation will be part of it. So now they mainly get lower quality beings, lower theta beings and enthetans there who are much less able and who tend to have poor everything skills.


  392. Good answer. I got it. Would you mind saying why you feel certain there IS a God? I’m sure you know as well as I do that there are other, religions of the world besides Scientology which do not acknowledge that there is a God.

  393. Miraldi,

    Whether there is a God or not, does not depend on what other religions believe.


  394. No disagreement, Dio. Just pointing out that there is a difference in opinion on the point that isn’t just with Scientology.

  395. Before I answer, let it be known that I was a confirmed agnostic (at least) my entire life until about 5 years ago, although I started shifting my beliefs about 13 years ago. I literally had neighborhood kids picketing my house chanting “unbeliever, unbeliever” when I was 11 or 12.

    I do not have a definitive answer as to Who God is. I do know that God exists – but my definition of God is not like the R6 God – the old Man on the throne. It is much more Hindu as I understand it. Shiva, Vishnu, Ganesh are all expressions or facets of God – they are not necessarily separate gods. I could be wrong, but that is my understanding. Allan Watts describes a compelling definition of God in which we are each viewpoints of God that allow Him to experience His creation. In the Bible, we are created in the Image of God – which means a hell of a lot more than I understood earlier – we are each the personification of God. “Be kind to every man, even the poor and downtrodden, because behold! there goes the image of God.”

    The “orthodox” Scn view is that we can ascend to infinite, Godlike capabilities. I agree we can and should be more God-like, not in terms of power, but in terms of love and compassion. But, I know that as infinite as I can be, I know that no matter what, there is an infinity even higher – and that is the collective Good, Kindness, Compassion, and Understanding of us all. Call it Love, or Providence. Or the “Universe.” Or God. I don’t have a handle on it completely (who does?) but I know It exists.

    One thing I do know – if we are truly only matter, then we would not be conscious. We would not exist. Life and consciousness are things that are either there, or not there – and the same physical body exists either way. When something dies, something leaves the form. The form loses something. That something is Life. That Life is part of God.

    The only argument for materialism I can buy is that if you consider the material to also be part of God – God is all and all is God. I can see that (not necessarily agree, but see it).

    Anyway – I hope I at least came close to answering your question 😉

  396. Grasshopper, let me send you something that may explain part of it.

  397. Grasshopper, I must say, you were pretty young to be an original thinker at 11 or 12 (if not before!).

    Thank you so much for the thorough answer. Yes, it definitely answered my question. And it’s more like I would have guessed. I couldn’t quite picture you believing in an R6 type God, “judging” by your posts, but thought maybe you had had some sort of revelation – from a spiritual guide or whatever. Nothing is outrageous to me anymore.

    What is so interesting is that your description of Alan Watts’ concept of God, which I hadn’t heard, is the one that makes the most sense to me. I think I worked that out for myself, but you know how it is – you come across a lot of data and it sort of forms itself into an “entity” (no pun intended). And the idea aligns quite well with The Factors, IMO.

    A lot in your post brought to mind something LRH said in “The Road to Truth” lecture:

    “…in the microcosm of a single human being, of the single person, you have the pattern of the macrocosm of the universe. And one could deduce that the universe exists from a series of basic postulates and proceeds on down the line in development from those postulates. You could even spot the goal of gold, the goal of lead. You could even spot the methods of livelihood of quartz, serpentine schist, hornblende, to name some combined elements – the rules of what they do. It’s not that these things are alive at all; it’s that they follow a certain dictated behavior pattern.”

    I really like that. 🙂

  398. Grasshopper,

    Quoting you:

    Before I answer, let it be known that I was a confirmed agnostic (at least) my entire life until about 5 years ago, although I started shifting my beliefs about 13 years ago.

    Me: That is why I say that a person should never believe anything. Because a belief is nothing more than a confession of ignorance. Believing is a function of the intellectually challenged, the intellectually inept, the people who do not know how to know.

    And scntlgy is the science of knowing how to know, therefor it perplexes me why a competent scntologist would use the word “believe”?

    A belief is a trap.

    It is also a very bad word which has many meanings and all but one of them are wrong.

    The only correct definition of “believe” is: to accept something as true without proof.

    And to do that is intellectual dishonesty or intellectual incompetence, or stupidity or ignorance.

    More of your quote:

    I literally had neighborhood kids picketing my house chanting “unbeliever, unbeliever” when I was 11 or 12.

    I do not have a definitive answer as to Who God is. I do know that God exists – but my definition of God is not like the R6 God – the old Man on the throne. It is much more Hindu as I understand it. Shiva, Vishnu, Ganesh are all expressions or facets of God – they are not necessarily separate gods.

    Me: For me, applying the “data for understanding” as explained in Hubbards article: “how to study a science” and reading the bible, the Oahspe, and some of the tome Urantia, has given me a much better understanding of who and what God is.

    I am confident that this process will do the same for anyone else.

    And I highly recommend that you read them.


  399. Dio; Brilliant. I have been batting that around in my ‘head’ for years but never locked it down. I must have been sleeping when I read that series. I love this blog, it has aligned so many things for me. I never believed in believing but used the word often. In simplistic terms, I always thought, at its highest point, religion and science would be the same.

  400. An unconscious reply – not something I would expect from someone who seemingly aspires to be a spiritual teacher or guide. I humbly suggest letting go of your identity and its urge to defend itself and instead be the conscious, unthinking observer. I’m sure you will then recognize the true, loving nature of the being you are addressing. I have – and I am blessed to have her as a friend. A useful exercise might be simply observing any emotional reaction to my post in a detached manner and not giving in to the urge to respond. Best wishes always, Don

  401. martyrathbun09

    An uninformed, evaluative sideline sur-reply. Namaste

  402. Truth uncompromisingly told will always have its ragged edges.
    Herman Melville



  403. deElizabethan

    Marty, this was a most interesting thread. Thanks to all!

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