The ‘Truth Rundown’ has made the news recently. It seems it was utilized by David Miscavige in an attempt to control the mind and communication of Leah Remini.
Some may recall that the St Petersburg Times (now, Tampa Times) groundbreaking series in June 2009 was entitled “The Truth Rundown.” I believe that David Miscavige was the unwitting author of that title.
After the church of Scientology was informed about the facts that I disclosed to the Times, the Times was assaulted with ‘wheelbarrows’ of material extracted from my preclear and ethics files from the church. One item piqued the curiosity of the reporters. It was an ‘apology’ I had written to David Miscavige in 1994. Someone might be able to find it on the Tampa Times website – it was once posted there, and was published in the original series, but I could not find it.
I explained that it was the ‘end phenomena’ of the Truth Rundown. The Truth Rundown is not over until such a written apology is extracted from the person being subjected to the rundown. And that is by order, and policy, of L. Ron Hubbard. That that is the end phenomena is evident from my ‘apology’ to Miscavige. If you find it, you can see that that is the end phenomena by my words in the very first paragraph. After dozens of hours of being interrogated I report that the interrogator found no ‘black PR’ (negative propaganda) had been harbored or spread by me about Miscavige. Nonetheless, I was required to write the ‘apology’ in order to terminate the seemingly unending interrogations. As you can see in the ‘apology’ itself, I used a little creativity in order to achieve the ‘end phenomena.’
ORIGIN OF THE RUNDOWN
When Hubbard was on the lam from lawsuits and grand juries in the early 80’s, he was flooding the Int Base (Scientology’s 500 acre compound near Hemet, California) with floods of orders to prepare for his return. For a complete account of that era, read Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior.
Part of the orders to the Int Base included ensuring the several hundred personnel there were completely loyal to Hubbard, for security purposes. All manner of security checking broke out in response. That is, forced interrogations on the e-meter (a single component of a lie detector) testing the single-minded trustworthiness of adherents to Hubbard.
In the course of the mass security checking it was discovered that a long-term Sea Org member at the base had made a comment that he felt the technical training films directed by Hubbard were amateur in quality. Of course, any intelligent person who has seen those original films would probably agree that this comment pretty well aligned with the truth. David Miscavige certainly fit that category. After all, he wound up spending on the order of one hundred million dollars to upgrade those films to ‘professional standards’ once Hubbard died.
But, Miscavige – and the rest of the Int Base staff – was more accomplished at keeping his true thoughts in order, and at the Int Base that means suppressed. Miscavige, led the chorus of Int Base executives who were outraged that such black propaganda – that the films were amateur – was being spread about the Int Base. When Hubbard received the reports, he responded with the terminated handling. That would be the exact procedure for what would become packaged, marketed and delivered as ‘The Truth Rundown.’
Here is the truth rundown in my own words:
- Security check a subject until you find a thought that is negative – by Miscavige’s definition – that is harbored by the individual toward someone of importance in Scientology.
- Ask, ‘just prior to having that thought, did you commit an overt (a harmful act)’?
- Then do the full security checking procedure – which includes forced, complete confession.
- Then interrogate for an ‘evil purpose’ that prompted the overt in the first place.
- When you’ve done this procedure for some time the individual finally comes to some level of realization and is happy for having completed that auditing procedure and that his ‘negative’ thoughts are prompted by deep, inherent evil intentions that have been implanted into him millions of years ago.
- Continue this process for as long as it takes for the recipient to originate something kind about the person he is being interrogated about. That is, after being forced to introvert on one’s own shortcomings for up to hundreds of hours, somewhere along the line the person recognizes the objective is to make him feel remorseful for having harbored less than kind thoughts about the person in question.
- The subject originates – or more than likely is prompted to – to ‘apologize’ to the person he harbored a less than kind thought about.
In my two decades of experience in administering and being subjected to the Truth Rundown, more often than not I observed it being used not to establish truth at all. Instead, it was used to enforce trusthworthiness and loyalty to the liking of the higher-up the subject had an unkind thought toward. Generally, what occurs is the subject becomes contrite and forgets what he thought of or objected to in the first place and rejoins the group as an enthusiastic member of the Stepford (or Truman Show) culture.
Is ‘brainwashing’ too harsh of a label for this?
What surprises me is that there are not more suicides/comatose/or permanently damaged people as a result of this type of outrageous interrogation.
Brainwashing might be too mild a term.
Since there are not as many permanently damaged people as I would think — it simply proves the strength and courage of so many who are standing up.
And saying “WE AREN”T GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE”
Thanks for helping to open those floodgates.
Yes, it is brainwashing. Fortunately we can repair such brainwashing out here in the field. It is being done every day in many countries.
You have inspired many to start auditing again and that has been a singular contribution.
This is almost exactly what happened to Winston Smith in the book ‘1984’. No wonder Miscavige deleted that reference form the PDC tapes.
Not at all. And I found your book very enlightening and interesting.
Brainwashing is too mild a term. This is an evil process. No wonder Scientologists find it hard to have a critical thought towards Hubbard.
Scientology is such a dichotomous belief system. On one level you learn about the spiritual side of life and on the other your mind is booby trapped.
What a complicated mess to unravel.
“Have a critical thought of Ron” should be the process to help.
Have a critical thought of Ron until VGIs.
If you can’t have a critical thought of Ron, that may be a sign that you have been brainwashed.
Someday I hope we find out why Ron was SO PARANOID!
Sorry, clearly not – this was 9 years later. Feel free to delete.
If this is not brainwashing, then I challenge anyone to provide an alternate definition and procedure for brainwashing that does not accomplish the same results as The Truth Rundown.
Enforced Auditing = Reversed Scientology = Black Dianetics.
Merriam Webster: : a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas
Bruce Hines also lays it out really well in this short video. If it looks like brainwashing, sounds like brainwashing, and fits the definition of brainwashing I guess it’s safe to conclude… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjbt9gVFIX8
Thanks Martin. That was derived by much the same ‘technology’, but in fact that was the result of Miscavige’s use of much more extreme measures – taken so as not to have the 1994 result again.
Black Dianetics, reverse Scientology, implanting, brainwashing. Call it want you like.The intentions are the same, TOTAL CONTROL.
If there was ever a rundown that was a complete and utter unworkable bust it was the TRD (or “turd”). They tried to run it on me and it went nowhere and was dropped. I was pretty good a weaseling out of things, I guess. I never ran into a single person who had the TRD who said it was great. This all came about during the development of the FPRD, which many people had fabulous wins from. Same basic procedure for the TRD but was hated by one and all. The truth is that the stuff being taken up as Black PR was mostly TRUE. Example: “DM treats his own staff like shit.” I observed with my own eyes in his office one evening as I waited for him to go over something. He was being irritable and nasty to his most loyal junior, Laurisse, and treating her like a sack of shit. Sorry, LRH, that is not Black PR, it is just the facts.
Marty, that you had to apologize when no black PR was
found is just typical of DM’s squirrel tech of whatever he
puts his little hands on. It’s just disgusting how he perverts
anything. When I originally read that apology I did not pay
it any heed as I knew how the church operated and is
conducting their squirrel tech even more now since they
are more under the gun now than at that time. But a lot
of people must have wondered what that was all about.
Good on making this clear again.
On another note, wonder if DM will use Atkinson-Baker
for Leah’s deposition. There are pluses and minuses on
deciding where to go.
So what did you think when you saw the development of the tech devolve from trying to free a person spiritually to utter brainwashing?
That must have been horrifying.
Is this when you left?
This sort of thing started with L. Ron Hubbard. Miscavige continued it but with a lot less imagination. Miscavige hasn’t even had the sense to concoct and release an occasional new OT level, which Scientologists crave and need, like a junkie needs a fix. Let’s just hope that when Miscavige goes – which he will sooner or later – that the new person running Scientology Inc. is not a creative and charismatic – and “likable” – forwarder of “LRH Intention.”
In the meantime, the e-book Brainwashing Manual Parallels examines the possibility that Hubbard knew what he was doing when he shaped Scientology into a brainwashing cult in the 1960s and 1970s.
Valuable information, Marty. I know you’re awfully busy, but keep it up. Thanks, MarkNR
I don’t necessarily enjoy being sour grapes, but how do you know people are not permanently damaged or at least changed by this procedure? People can go on functioning, just fine to all outward appearances.
In the A=A of the KSW crowd, this rundown will also have its place and validity. After all, it came from Ron.
You talked about forgiveness in your last article, and I am grateful, because that is where I am at right now and what I am struggling with.
Forgive, perhaps yes. But I won’t go back, and the madness you describe here gives me every reason not to.
I hear talk of “intelligent” selection of LRH tech in the indy field. Oh dear, who decides that? Sounds like “intelligent” selection for a euthenasia program.
Thanks for picking apart the red hot elephants in the room.
Thank you for your clear and concise summary. I had never had to undergo this enforced auditing and I am thankful for that. With all that is currently going on, Miss Cabbage is getting what he has for so long deserved. Thank you Marty for everything you have done to set the record straight.
I think I remember this process as being called Rollback, although I think the original purpose of Rollback was to ferret out personnel who were bird-dogs sent in by hostile forces to disrupt an organization. (Having a whole process to do that belies a rather paranoid organization, really)
Was the TRD an attempt to “package” RB along with FPRD?
The problem with RB was that no one in a higher organization could ever be found at fault for anything, whether or not the criticism was actually valid.
It was a spectacle of self-important RTC rollback checkers beating down lower org staff until those staff self-policed their own negative thoughts, or shut down any incoming comm that was negative.
I cannot imagine being subjected to that for a hundred hours. It was only a few hours for me. I just hunkered down and endured it, and somehow the attention shifted off of me. I remember the pit-of-the stomach anxiety every time I was being “called up to qual,” a milder version of what a prisoner must feel, who is being taken back to the torture chamber.
This was the biggest thing that made me think,”this is not scientology, and if it is, I don’t want anything to do with it.” I had been struggling with doubts about staying in the SO for some time, and when I originated wanting to get help with my ongoing doubts, this was the “help” I got.
Yep, pretty much sounds like brainwashing to me…
My thoughts on the article itself:
From a Christian perspective: You are judged and found wanting.
From a legal perspective: You are found guilty without trial. Your crimes are not assumed to exist, they are known to exist. What did the inquisition do? They knew you were in league with the devil, and the only right answer was “yes”. So often in Scientology, the only accepted answer is “yes”.
If we look at this rundown as a reflection of LRH’s mental state, what does it tell us? This has nothing to do with a “game where everybody wins”. You’ve lost before it started. It is coercion, mental and spiritual abuse and rape, and designed to drive you mad if you experience it long enough.
Brainwashing is a very soft description. I think “mental and spiritual torture” is more fitting.
Nope, not too harsh a label at all.
now this is a topic, and the kind of story, that i have missed of late, marty. lots of things going on in the dmscohb front so i can’t wait to read more from you in the future. keeping my fingers and toes crossed for you and mosey although it appears (knocking on wood with fingers crossed is harder on the knuckles than one would guess, seriously) attorney jeffrey has things in order.
Marty, this is a little off the subject but I’ve always wanted to ask this regarding FPRD, of which the TRD is an ugly step-brother perhaps…? In the late 80’s if I remember correctly the FPRD was doing great at the base, staff were winning at it, doing well on their jobs, it was much more of a happier scene than what occurred gradually to what we have now. How did the FPRD get stopped? Did this happen as Miscavige gradually came into more and more power? Was something done higher up in effect to cancel it for base staff?
It is my opinion that people predict how people behave as they treat people.
If I am a car salesman and am expert on ripping people off and do it as a matter of fact, then in my mind is the reality of ripping people off. And if I rip people off then it is possible for others to rip me off.
The fear of being ripped off is fueled by my ripping off because it creates that as a memory. It establishes as a potential in others.
Being paranoid, to me, is the soul condemning itSelf by balancing the score, even though nothing in reality is being done to one. The soul plays these records of being attacted in the mind even though no one is in actuallity is doing anything.
We punish ourSelves for mistreating others because what we do to others we actually do to ourSelves.
That is what Christ meant, “love thy neighbor as thySelf.”
But if you think Christ was a keyed out pedophile, then that dog don’t hunt.
In a word, your presumption is correct. Long story.
The word “brainwashing” too harsh? My way of looking at it has never been popular, but it’s mine nonetheless. One thing that Hubbard did talk about that I could find no fault with was you are responsible …………..for your decisions and you are capable of taking responsibility for your environment even with things you did not Cause.. Even if you refuse to take responsibility for whatever it is one finds that when you are willing to do so, things loosen up and begin to flow again.
We can squeal til the pigs start wearing lipstick and it doesn’t change a darn thing about “what were/are you willing to be responsible for?” IMO 🙂
Thanks. Bummer though–things could have been much different.
How is it “reverse”?
Yes, it is brainwashing. I am so glad I did not have to do the TRD (or a SEC check — the thought of which was terrifying to me back “in the day”).
What I did go through was bad (demeaning) enough.
TRD and related systems are truly about control, enforced realities, fear, invalidation of one’s own truth — in the whole, a dark age in which reason and critical thinking are viciously stamped out, and supreme allegiance to one group on one dynamic is asserted, with no exceptions allowed for anyone who is not the leader.
Orwell’s 1984 was achieved and exceeded in some ways.
Taking into account reincarnation, a soul could be evolved passed being harmful to others and behave fairly now. But those records and actions are and were real. So life sets up circumstances to put the person in the situation so as to recreate what they did to others.
The purpose of karma is not to punish, though it does do that, the purpose of karma is to teach.
It teaches the receptive soul the laws that govern the cosmos as far as human behavior is concerned.
Love and serve others and life will be sweet.
Manipulate and harm others to aquire power and sense gratification and life will slice your throat.
Good Reply Brian,
I don’t think Christ was a key’d out pedophile…I think Ron was so narcissistic and such an ego maniac that he wanted NO one to be more spiritual or more intelligent…so he spends the rest of his life calling out the great masters as phony’s and sexual deviants.
I’ll give him one thing…he sure knew what buttons to push! 🙂
Hi Dan, yes a lot of “black PR” was based on something that was
real and had occured. It could get very dicy if the folder work before
the sessions was not done well. Also the auditor in session had
to do a bit of a digging. I saw wins on it on all 4 flows (0 flow as
of learning the tech and delivering it).
Oh Geeze, let’s just cut to the chase. Why didn’t you just ask David?
Great summary of the TRD. Only one thing missing: at the end of the procedure, the subject didn’t just apologize to the person he’d harbored unkind thoughts about. He had to write letters of apology to EVERYBODY he’d ever spread his”Black PR” to. This sometimes meant writing 20 or more such letters.
I remember receiving several of these letters. What always struck me as strange is that, in every single instance, I couldn’t recall the person having expressed anything even approaching what he was apologizing for. It was downright creepy. Not unlike the forced apologies for made-up crimes of American soldiers in “The Manchurian Candidate”.
I think you were generous calling it brain washing. I would call it mind fucking domestic terrorism! And David has CCHR running around pointing the fingers at the shrinks! What a joke!
This is just so much worse than I imagined. Now I am really feeling for Leah Remini. I have to ask myself who/what harbored such evil intentions towards the “volunteers” as David asserts they all are in court, (except when he is Texas) to even subject them to this kind of misery?
Sounds like what they do in a Vienamese prison camp. Break someone down psychology and get them to denounce and appoligize.
Great breakdown of the TRD. I remember when we were all briefed at CC about the TRD. Of course Tech terminals were targeted first for this rundown. Specifically the Original GAT people. Because we were “downstat” and “out ethics” even though months prior we had received a commend from ED Int for having the Highest EVER stats in the history of the Academy, in fact ANY Academy EVER on the planet.
I started getting it later as I was wrapping up LOC and my Internships so nobody wanted to stop all my student points or “Auditors” made that I could be as I got through KTL/LOC, Pro W/Cer, Internship, Pro Sup, Internship, Pro Tr’s Clay Table Supervisor, and Group Auditor Course in a few months. I was a great student. Also while coaching numerous students through Academy Levels, TR’s Courses, Running the public and Tech Film rooms, delivering group auditing, doing IG network 25 call in, handling BIS for the org, being the Course Admin, W/Cering Celebrities and holding a post as the Tech Courses W/Cer. I was pretty busy.
During doing all that I was committing the ULTIMATE Sea Org sin, but really a normal thing in everyday life. I fell in love with my roommate. Most women my age, college age, at least kiss their roommates one time. I fell in love with mine and we were carrying on quite the affair.
Exec’s assumed it was going on but no one could prove it. My stats were up constantly, the public adored me, I was the ONLY person in all of CC with GOLD approval to touch a tech film, I was popular and fun. They couldn’t get someone to rat me out.
So they put me on the TRD. I am sure they thought it would come up in Rudiments in the first session. It didn’t. It never did. I certainly didn’t spread black PR about the girl I loved. Why would I do that?
No I stupidly confessed to being in love off the meter to the HAS after tremendous out tech pressure was put on me. Unbeknownst to me she recorded our conversation. My only error at that time was not telling the woman I was in love with that I was going to do that.
Then because of my confession, I was sent to the RPF. Even though the FO on out 2D clearly states, “Out-2D = beaching.” That is actually all it says. Celebrity Centre’s first course of action was to declare me. Because I loved a girl I was an SP. Luckily for me I had a friend in the IJC office (like I said I was popular) and he sent it back to them basically saying to fuck off and I wasn’t an SP and they needed to handle me so I didn’t leave the SO.
Then they Sec Checked me for MONTHS trying to get as much dirt as possible out of me (Not the TRD, just Sec Checking). I just wanted to leave. Then finally the RPF assignment came through, during the Birthday Event in 2000. (Just as a funny note, I was IN the Honor Guard for the New Years 2000 event as a Sword on stage just months prior to all of this coming out. And no I wasn’t the one who almost stabbed COB with my sword. But my now husband was also there as a sword. He choreographed our routine.)
That was the beginning of a 3 year hell for me on the RPF that is another story for another time. I did finish the TRD on the RPF and every apology letter I wrote was met with contempt, scorn or people writing back saying they didn’t even remember the incidents I mentioned. The MOST useless rundown ever and the one that started my departure from Scientology.
I would credit the TRD for being the impetus to my departure not only from the Sea Org but from Scientology itself.
Very eerie. The Truth Rundown sounds like Communist-like brainwashing a la The Manchurian Candidate. Sea Org members go through hell, especially the high ranking ones. Will Heber and the rest of those execs ever come out of there alive one day?
“Is ‘brainwashing’ too harsh of a label for this?”
No. Not at all and it’s probably the most insidious process of any as on top of being security checked for hours and days on end (torturous introversion), it has the title of “TRUTH Rundown” attached to it which is a complete mindf@#k right there.
NewlyOut, thank you. That’s fascinating. Creepy is right.
Definition of BRAINWASHING
1. Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person’s basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs.
2. The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation.
I think it fits the definition. I also think “torture” is an apt description.
Any auditing which is enforced, by definition, is reverse Scientology.
Thank you for this information.
If you can control the beings thoughts then you can control that being. And in order to control a beings thoughts the most efficient method is that this being is continuously doing that himself. „Oh, I should not think this thought“ If you manage to convince someone that there is something like „forbidden thoughts“ then you have full control.
So, the purpose of this rundown is to gain full control over a being.
I am incredibly hesitant to post this. I had a much larger comment but I am editing down to this:
You should have said Fuck You. And you didn’t.
All this crap about brainwashing. I took this shit for years, Marty (and the rest of you SO folks). I never admitted doing anything I didn’t do. I never saw the need. Sure, I was removed from post. Sure, I got some goldenrod. Sure, I was almost beached at 16 (and instead, moved to the decks for weeks of hard labor, little food and little sleep). My history is riddled with bullshit “justice” actions, both while on staff and as public. In fact, I never had a clean justice cycle in my history as a Scientologist. I’ve had a “rollback,” sec checks (HCO and otherwise), interrogations, gangs of SO members pointing their fingers at me – all that crap.
And I read the above and think – what an asshole I am to say “I was able to say fuck you – why weren’t you?” And yet, after three years of sympathizing with all y’all – there was always, in the back (or not so back) of my mind – why the FUCK did you stay? I didn’t. And since you DID decide to stay, why the FUCK are you complaining about it?
Sorry man. That’s how I feel.
You misunderstand me. I have no complaints. I am reporting facts.
Dan, I didn’t even know about the existence of TRD. It really sounds weird!
This information is useful, if nothing else then as a warning to others. Not everyone here on this blog is in the same position as you. Why did anybody put up with stuff as long as they did? Maybe their purpose gave them strength, and hope blinded them for a while.
Not everyone is strong. I’m certainly grateful I have a place to go with the CoS experience. There are few other places where you can talk about it without being forced to conform (yet again) to someone else’s idea of how you should be.
Thanks for spelling it out.
In addition, RPFers have a final step.
“RPFers” mean Sea Org Members have fallen into disgrace go to a Gulag for years for thought reform on their *CRIMES*.
The final step of the Truth Rundown is to have the person address the entire group and *apologise* and *take responsibility* for his delusion and false accusations. It is further humiliation and degradation, and people do it, as you cannot *graduate* and leave the Truth Rundown til this public announcement is done.
I reported earlier that atrocities have gotten exported from David Miscavige INT base, first to other Sea Org Bases and finally to even public. Public have been made to mop floors, clean toilets (remember the story of Naz, Tom Cruise auditioned prospect who was enforced to hard manual labor?)
The Truth Rundown was run on Leah Remini and she was billed some $300,000 for it !
I explain more here ~
If we’re going to sling quotes, here – from the UN Convention Against Torture:
1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term “torture” means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
The original works of Scientology were to free a person from unwanted feelings, troubles, spiritual trauma, physical and emotional pain, and get their attention out there to live life to the fullest and come to an understanding about their spiritual future. If the procedures are applied *correctly* you get these very good benefits and a very happy (to say the least) person.
When the auditing is not done for the benefit of the preclear and ONLY the preclear, when the auditor’s or administration’s intentions are not clean, the procedures are messed up on purpose or not, but messed up just the same, along with a host of other faux-pas (crimes, you could call them), you have the reverse effect on the preclear. He feels worse, he gets stuck into his problems instead of figures them out, he is greatly troubled and as a spiritual being he is pretty much trashed and feels he has no abilities anymore. This is what people are paying tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars for these days.
(The solution to “being reversed” of course is to look happy at all times, not complain about how you feel, not suspect anything was wrong with your auditing, and certainly not report any suspicions. Just look happy and tell everyone how GREAT! you’re doing.)
“Unbeknownst to me she recorded our conversation.”
This seems to have become a sneaky bad habit about C.C.. and in the Church. It is illegal. They don’t mind that at all do they?
Those Sea Org members have some serious issues on the second dynamic. They think anyone being sexual is “being a body”. They aren’t being a body when they stuff up at lunch! They aren’t being a body when they primp up and swing totally out of valence in new uniforms and braids and medals! They aren’t being a body as they run along on the RPF or DPF being treated as work animals with no other rights. But if they want to get next to someone they are somehow degraded. My only regret from my time in the Sea Org is that I didn’t fuck people I should I have fucked. Seriously!
I am glad they no longer have the benefit of your company. You flew into some serious suppression over at the Freedom Center! Makes me wanna holler!
I’ve been reading this blog alot, not posting much … But wondering, is it the procedure itself or the repetition (both of the steps within the procedure and the repetition of the procedure itself) that lends it to “mind control” … I suppose we really can’t know for certain. But given that so much of the auditing and sec checking process seems to include so much repetition, it seems a worthwhile consideration.
I spent six years in the Sea Org with NO physical pleasure or comfort whatsoever because I thought it would be selfish! HA! Meanwhile every day I was getting f%&^$d up the a&& by the Church of Scientology!
No training, No auditing, No enhancement.No encouragement. No bridge. I forfeited 100,000 a year pay check for that! It cost me 600K to go over there so a can’t have could be run on every area of my life!
It was like feeding a bottomless pit. I had to sneak to get my teeth cleaned! The WORST deprivation EVER!
I finally had enough when they asked me to start running the same can’t have’s on the public!
Whatever happened to flourish and prosper?
David Miscavige just struck out in court again in Florida today. Why doesn’t he just give the Garcias their money back? They are not going to do Super Power. The Church lied to them. The Church breached contract with them. And now David Miscavige is fighting them in court for the right to be grossly out exchange / give no exchange with people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It’s all just about the craziest sickest meladrama bullshit carny show this side of the Atlantic Ocean!
Wow! Please write more.
What is “IG network 25 call in”?
@ Grasshopper–I think a lot of us did say Fuck You when we left. I sure did, with pleasure! It felt goooooood! But I post here sometimes with the hope that those still in or on the fence might read it. Back in the good old days if you were mentioning something “non-optimum” that happened, or that you disagreed with, if you even said something about it you were accused of complaining. But on this blog, and on others, you can say what happened (facts) as something you did experience or witness and not be “complaining.” You are no longer being a part of *withholding* the bad thing(s) you saw or did or that happened to you, and thus a new and different picture is presented.
The “church” puts out how great everything is. It’s not, by far, as we all here know, and many of us even helped with the blindfolds pulled over the eyes of everyeone else. No more. I personally like exposing this stuff–no sympathy required, just Look and compare and think about it and then get the heck out.
Unless I am not understanding what you mean, I’m inclined to think that Marty and a few others, without even really meaning to, are the ones handing out the biggest F-U’s of all right now! The whole idea is to get it to stop and get all the others out and starting on a path to recovery.
IG stands for Inspector General. IG network bulletin 25 was a culling of every Cebtral Files in the world and categorizing them all as A, B, C or D. Then groups of SO members would call these lists all day every day “recovering people” category D were people who hadn’t been on lines in years most were dead filed.
COB used me twice in events to show how effective he was. First during the original GAT release event he spoke of a W/Cer with no meter training doing the program and finding MUs on a class VIII and getting amazing results and all that, that was me. And again at another event he was talking about how great recovery efforts were and that a person called from the lists had been instructed how to give an assist over the phone and three helped their brother recover from a coma. That was me too.
I regret being a part of these “miracles” that have hurt so many people include myself.
So crazy. So much can’t have. It took me ears to be able to even let myself have a ice cream because I felt like it.
But I am glad to be done with the whole thing. Life is the best now. Really the best.
Scientology – the entire thing, from “Day One” up to and including the “Day You Realise The Entire Thing is a Crock”, is brainwashing. Every single lecture, every single book, every single policy etc, is designed to bring you not to understanding. But to one person’s viewpoint. And if you fail to adhere to that viewpoint you are relentlessly hunted down and stopped.
All of it, excluding nothing, is available through the study and application of the discoveries of other philosophers (ancient and modern) and quantum physicists. Even the so-called “upper levels” are written in other works preceding Hubbard’s so called discoveries. And these works are more easily, readily and cheaply applied and without the cultish carry on involved with Scientology. It is a bit like making Cheerios into a national icon and a top secret recipe and ensuring that before you can eat Cheerios you must undergo extensive checks as to your trustworthiness and suitability.The worst thing is that you truly believed that Cheerios were of any importance. Yawn!!! Are these people on drugs? Don’t they see they have been had.
But the average Scientologist has never studied another philosophy much less – applied it to see if it worked, and the average Scientologist has most definitely never really helped anyone. I know that for sure because I have met thousands and thousands of Scientologists and auditors all over the world. And I know this is the big elephant in the living room to those who are a tiny bit awake – if the definition of a Scientologist is one who uses Scientology to improve conditions in his own life and the lives of others – then how come nobody in the group seems to be able to do that? If the purpose of Scientology is to make Auditors and Clears – where are they all? And if the works of L Ron Hubbard are to be kept standard, how come they can bring out GATI and GATII? What is that all about? And if Hubbard says don’t make buildings important (that quote is burned on our memory), and the entire focus of the international membership is buying buildings, then what is going on? Are you all on drugs?
The trained auditor in Scientology has rarely if ever audited anyone. I know that, you know that, they know that? So what is going on there?
It is only a handful who are capable or motivated to help their friends and family. And they are fully aware of what is going on, but PTS just like the rest of their friends and family inside the organisation, and unable to make a move for the sake of threats and fear alone.
The part that Scientology plays in the liberty of mankind is equal to the part played by Coca Cola or the World Bank. Any benefit or quick fix or win it gives is countered by its destructive and controlling nature.
The great and useful thing that I learned from my 20 years as a member of the Church of Scientology, and something I maybe would not have realised had I not come across the subject, is that it is best to avoid all cults, doctrines and systems of beliefs if you wish to be free from domination and nullification of you as a human being.
Everything in the subject is to be found outside the subject – and in most cases, better explanations, deeper understanding and definitely better results. You have all been had.
So, in a word. YES it is brainwashing Marty.
Is the article you meant:
Here’s an excerpt:
“The church released numerous pages of files it kept on Rathbun. Among them: a 1994 letter that said he had completed a Truth Rundown — one of many types of confessionals — and apologizing for leaving the church briefly the year before; three confessions for striking and verbally abusing staff dozens of times; and documents where he admits that he mishandled situations.
“In a 2003 document, Rathbun writes a ‘public announcement’ detailing two decades of flubs, including: making himself out to be more important than he was, making more work for Miscavige, mismanaging staff and messing up major assignments, including the church’s long-running battle with the IRS.
“Rathbun says he wrote what Miscavige wanted to hear.”
How “clever” of the church to write “striking and verbally abusing staff dozens of times,” giving the impression that there were dozens of times of each, both striking and abusing – whereas, the phrase could mean striking as little as one time and verbally abusing dozens of times, which was done by virtually all execs in that culture.
One of the more duplicitous promotions is that Scientology inc will return your self determinism
Self -Determinism ?
The control mechanisms in place, control every nook and cranny of your existence. Who can be your friend. Who you cannot friend. What family relationship you may or may not have. What you are permitted to read (internet, library, Amazon books etc etc.) and what what you cannot read or it will cost you an additional $50,000 in sec checks. There is a torturous 74 question *Eligibility* sec check, to make you “Eligible” for spiritual again at the determinism of OSA/RTC/David Miscavige !
No, the journey does not make you *more yourself,*
The journey is to make you a more docile, obedient “Scientologist in good standing.”
Wrong. They published the entire letter in the print edition and this is NOT what I was referring to.
Okay. Didn’t mean to offend you if I did. I thought it related to what you said on the blog post as to the “public announcement” of “making more work for Miscavige.”
Anything, or anyone for that matter, and by whatever means, attempts to force on you his Reality and suppresses your own ideas, thoughts and communications denotes irrationality and absolutism.
But as you wrote it on the first lines of this posting is “an attempt”.
Not everybody is going to oblige to authoritarianism or attempts to not communicate. Leah Remini is one of those, and so are many others.
As far as the Truth Rundown it denotes evaluation (telling you there must be this or that) and invalidation (of your own truths). From this angle then it is in itself an ‘untruthful’ rundown.
I believe thats brainwashing; its totally forced upon the individual to make him think his perception is wrong. Its an invalidation of self.
There is a policy letter in the front of the HQS that says NEVER force a P.C..
When I was in (which was until getting declare a couple of months ago), I had a very good wealthy friend who is a big donor (he got me in 40 years ago).
When all of the heavy dono regging started in this century, he was as nattery about it as the next guy. He would pay, but would complain and he would be a tough sale. About 3 years ago he told me they gave him the TRD (8 intensives at his expense) and he now sees it all in a different light. He pays a lot more and thinks DM is awesome. He even explains away DM hitting people, saying he has a really high pressure job.
What you describe is without a doubt brainwashing.
It is a disgusting mis-use of the technology of confessionals.
I have a couple of questions about this “Truth Rundown”:
(1) You mention that it came out in the early ’80s. Can you pin down the year any closer? This is could be an important datum.
(2) You mention that this rundown was developed by LRH, himself. Do you mean that he personally approved the FINAL rendition of it as practiced at the Int base, and if so are you certain of that?
(3) Do you have or does anyone else have any documentation showing that Ron originated this rundown as delivered?
The reason I am interested in 2 and 3 above is that David Miscavige has originated numerous alterations to Scientology Technology. For example, the “3-swing F/N”. I am wondering if it is at all possible that he or others who were “piloting” this had any input into the exact procedure and nature of the rundown as delivered. And there is no mention of this thing in any extant HCOBs so far as I know.
The reason I would like to get a better idea of the date this is that it is also well known that LRH’s health was deteriorating from the early ’80s until his passing in 1986. I believe that, in fairness, this should be factored into whatever judgement is made about his involvement with this.
Meanwhile, this is ugly. It is right out of George Orwell’s 1984, except for the drugs and shock treatments. It is reverse Scientology.
Ron originated it and micro managed its development and compilation.
Thanks for that. I get you.
And don’t get me wrong – It is screwed up that there was no real justice in Scientology even though Ron touted his tech as the epitome of justice and fairness. And the real crime is to the children of Scientologists, many of whom were effectively orphaned by the fact that their self-centered parents were too worried about their own goals (and costs) in Scientology to wear their hats as parents. I saw that all the time, and was pretty close to having that happen to me as well.
The reality of Scientology never, ever, reached the ideal of Scientology. There were rare instances of close-to-perfect moments – such as the right session, such as much of the Scientology Delaware Valley experience (my mission in New Jersey, with renegade Class VIII’s as mission holders), and such as various pockets of tech delivery – the BC, and AOLA back in the day. Sort of pockets of Scientology goodness in a sea of crazy. I saw it the other way around – we were the Scientology practitioners putting up with and circumventing the small factions of zealots and rote-thinkers.
For me, Scientology worked. And I saw it work – when practiced in a loving way (which we would have called “granting beingness” or “theta”) with the intention of doing well and doing good. And I also saw the crazy. But I always believed in the vision of the Ideal, and I knew that shit like instant declares, pre-determined Comm Evs, make-wrong sec checks — all that crap — was not Scientology. Or at least, it was not in my vision of the ideal. So I didn’t go along with it. It really helped that I had years of what was close to ideal at the mission and in my academy training at ASHO before I ventured onto staff, even at my young age. I was already a Class IV (and never hit my PCs, either!) when I was 16. That helped a lot. In fact, it made all the difference.
But was it designed only for the purpose to clean up the space so he could safely return to the base or was it meant for broad usage (i.e. export to CLOs and even public orgs)?
It is, was he concerned about his own safety or was this designed to make the general stuff and public in? Like a kind of a Anti-Super-Power rundown?
I haven’t been an SO member and untill now I didn’t even know about the existence of this RD.
I can tell that all ethics I experienced in my local Church were about 2 things:
1. If you are ‘PTS’ (meaning some member of your family or friend is liable to cause trouble to the Church), ‘handle’ (make it stop) or disconnect. PTS and suppressed person rundowns were available too, but only for those who had the bucks. Mainly the focus was to keep the Church trouble-free, and yourself free from the control of another, so you could be controlled by the Church. I’m not evaluating/invalidating the PTS/SP tech now. I’m saying what i experienced in my local Church.
2. All ‘out-ethics’ was about not being in full agreement with the Church. If you disagreed, there had to be something wrong with you, because the Church is God’s will on earth, and the high status staff are it’s children. I’m joking, but it’s not far from that which was implied. So the EPs of all ‘handling’ were to be very sorry for disagreeing and to passively from then on agree and be chees….happy about it too. I was told twice by the OE that I had an evil purpose: Once because I told her I didn’t like to be controlled. The other because I wrote down an O/W in which I had (probably) ARC broken somebody, unintentionally.
The worst part is that although during my stay in the Church I was pretty hardcore with not buying all that I was told, I did believe that stuff, and it was awful…very awful. Never been worse. Was it brainwashing? I’d get less brainwashed if I was being punched while being given commands.
Oh I forgot. I never encountered a single instance (except once from a specific person that I still like) that such a high status staff (to make it a bit more specific, high status=hight on the org board and on the unwritten good-standing-board, and inside the clique of the ‘right’ ones that run the org) would ever even CONSIDER or LOOK just in case he/she had commited an overt him/herself –never ever ever. Leave alone to otherwise take a tiny bit of responsibility for my ‘wrongness’. Talking about ethics and SP characteristics…
Humm Marty – interesting. The TRD I received was all fine. That was somewhere in 86-88 Exec Series 40 quals. I do not recall the latter 1/2 of these commands. (not that they were not there!)
Yes, as you have written this, IMO it would be brainwashing per definition.
He was a genius indeed. But genius and wise are not synonymous. Where ever he is in the cosmos his ears must be not ringing, but booming.
May you find true peace Mr. Hubbard
I had an X-SO auditor whom had worked with LRH (she said she used to go for walks with him) and she was an absolute sweetheart of a being. I don’t think she would have run such a process as you describe. That is worse then the FPRD. I’m assuming you and the other auditors in our field have a correction list to rehabilitate anything so evil. Thanks to all for making it safe for this to get fixed.
For those who may have missed it last time around I’d like to repost the article about North Korean Brainwashing as it was done back in the 1950s:
Readers can judge for themselves if these techniques resemble what goes on in the Co$.
North Korean Brainwashing is based completely on denying the target prisoners all positive emotional support, and exposing them to an all
negative emotional atmosphere, and actually rewarding them when they acted to destroy their own ideals and emotional capacity, and
The North Korean (and Chinese camps, as these are just as much Chinese techniques of thought reform) brainwashing camps were unique in that the prisoners were relatively well-treated in the physical sense. They had
adequate food, shelter, and water, and were not physically tortured. In fact, their captors were careful not to make them angry, as this
could have provided them with motivation to oppose the brainwashing process. (Clearly, DM has “improved” on the North Korean techniques by adding torture, sleep deprivation and food deprivation, as well as other forms of duress. And the use of the e-meter besides.– V)
A study done after the Korean War, of 1,000 returned prisoners of war who had been “brainwashed”, found the majority never got back in
touch with old friends and family. They were found to be in a condition described as in “mental solitary confinement”. All their bonds
of affinity and relationship with others had been broken, and apparently they had lost their capacity to have positive relationships.
The camps they had been in had no barbed wire surrounding them, and very few guards, yet escape attempts were very rare.
At the same time,it was found that something like 28% of the prisoners had died in these camps, essentially by giving up their will to live.
These camps had the highest death rates of any camps anywhere, ever recorded.
Many of the prisoners just went to their quarters one day, sat in a corner covering themselves with a blanket, and died, often within two days.
Usually no-one of the other prisoners tried to help them, because the bonds of relationship between them had already been broken.
The researchers concluded these men had died of “extreme hopelessness”.
Here is how it was done:
1. Group members are all channeled into informing on each other. Informers are given rewards. This breaks the trust between the group
members and isolates each person from the others. No-one can be trusted, because anyone might be or become an informer at anytime.
Interestingly enough, no-one was punished for anything they had reportedly done. That was not the objective. The objective was to
destroy the trust and emotionally supportive relationships the group members had with each other.
2. Prisoners are organized into smaller groups of 10 or 12, and required to confess bad things they have done, and also to confessing
good things they failed to do. They did not confess to their captors, but to each other, the other group members. This is a “reverse group
therapy” process. This gradually eroded the caring, trust, and respect the men had for each other.
3. Efforts are made to destroy loyalty to leadership and their country, and their own ideals.
4. All positive support is withheld. For example, all supportive mail from home with any good news or encouragement was withheld. All mail
with bad news was delivered – news of death, pending divorce, dunning letters for unpaid bills, etc were all promptly delivered.
The goal of this kind of brainwashing is basically to completely ARC break (destroy the positive emotion in their lives) the prisoners
with themselves, with their fellows, with their leaders, their country, and with life, and eventually their own will to live.
Some of the prisoners essentially became like their captors, and became apologists for the North Koreans. Most did not, but were severely
Much of the information here I took from an audiobook called “How Full Is Your Bucket?” by Tom Rath and Donald O. Clifton PhD.
They are founders of the field of “Positive Psychology”, which they promoted to businesses, but which has application to all people.
Positive Psychology has to do with the study and implementation of methods for reinforcing and increasing mental health in any setting,
instead of focusing on the sick, disordered, or pathological.
It does reveal how positive or negative interactions between people strongly affect their “mental health”.
Having seen stuff like that, I must disagree with the idea that the reason for the demise of the Church is a single man. I never met mr Miscavige, but I assume he must be as good as the super-ethical people of my local org. Or is it that Miscavige put them to do it? Is he the eye of Sauron or something?
Somewhere in that famous bulletin about PTS/SP (also part of the Scientology Handbook) it was mentioned that artists are magnets for SPs…imagine what Scientology is!!!
Would you tell anyone to dump his wife, children, close friends etc because they expresss disagreement towards you? Only people that drown in witholds would, so that the witholds would remain hidden. Only such people would want nice, agreeable slaves.
Dan, Very new to the base, and the first time in the office alone with only David and Shelly, he ordered her around derogatorily by her first name; not even knowing their relationship, I just called her Shelly also; neither one corrected me on how to address her.
After leaving the office and asking a few others I was genned-in on the relationship and the the fact that none of my initial guesses (maybe his sister?, maybe a communicator?, maybe his secretary?) were correct.
Believe it or not, I think that was true of a lot of us. We all hoped things would improve — at least that was the reason I stayed.
In the early 2000s I started telling a close Scn friend that I thought the crazy might be emanating from the top — namely Miscavige. But he convinced me that “no, the guy is sane and as sharp they come”. I had my doubts, but I disregarded them. The St. Pete Times’ series “The Truth Rundown” in 2008, and all the first-hand accounts, convinced me otherwise. From that point on, I just couldn’t support Miscavige or the group anymore.
But the truth is, ever since being on staff in the mid-80s, and studying the Staff Statuses and other policies (and this was after years of being public and studying the core subject in some depth), I always knew that there was something not quite right, not quite workable with quite a few LRH policies — and when I read “Keeping Admin Working” from 1986 (which basically puts ALL policy in concrete), it gave me a sinking feeling. Like “uh oh, this shit ain’t gettin’ fixed anytime soon”.
Personally, I’ve seen — and experienced — backwards, dysfunctional organizations get dramatically turned around. It’s not easy, and it takes real confront, brutal honesty and great leadership. But I’m convinced it could be done with Scientology.
Whether it will ever come to pass is another thing. Personally, I’m just as happy having a wide selection of Indie auditors and training places to choose from — I don’t have any must-have on a “reformed CoS”.
No matter what happens, if the end result doesn’t allow a “free market” approach (as we have today with the indies), then personally I wouldn’t be interested.
Yes V, it’s amazing how apathy and a sense for being serene while not caring and while being interiorised into 1D, have gotten the label ‘positive’, ‘positive energy’ and such stuff in cosmopolitan’s level of psychology and some new age etc.
I did see similarities. What I can’t explain with ease is how those brainwashing methods were not just implemented by DM and a closed circuit of friends of his but by more people all around the globe. Did people just learn from each other while they took trips to the AOSHs or?
Here is one of Marty’s previous posts on the subject:
“Ron originated it and micro managed its development and compilation.”
Did you receive the dispatches directly from Ron yourself or was the comm forwarded to you from another? If so do you recall who forwarded the information to you?
I ask this because it has been well documented that Miscavige, after putting himself in a position to do so, was “filtering” Ron’s incoming and out-going comm lines around that time.
Also, in the early ”80s”, do you recall if the rundown was released to the int base closer to 1980 or closer to 1985?
I would like to nail down as exact a time as possible as I evaluate the ramifications of all this.
Do you think his mind is now broken?
or, should I rephrase that to ask: white-washed? washed out?
Yes, Scientology could be the ultimate “SP magnet”. The terrible thing is, at bottom the SP, being basically good as is any being, may well be drawn to it because it offers at least some hope that s/he can be released from the SP condition by Scientology. In the meantime s/he dramatizes the stop/destroy psychic imperative compulsion that drives him, shriveling a little more inside with each destructive action s/he performs. As Mike Rinder likes to say, “It sucks to be Miscavige” (and his minions).
Wow! Thanks for this. Yes, very similar only staff live like this on a daily basis. I will pick up the book,
They left out folding laundry and ironing.
“Everything in the subject is to be found outside the subject” may be true, but how many lifetimes can one spend sifting through, for example, 2,600 years of Buddhist writings alone, to find the gold nuggets which will really work for you?
To the extent LRH winnowed a lot of teachings and separated the wheat from the chaff, keeping or expanding on what was truly helpful and workable, he did me and a lot of others a big favor.
If you truly believe what you posted, I think you could do the world a big favor by writing up that “hat” you found in all those other teachings, and condensing them down for the rest of us to benefit from. Then we wouldn’t need to look to LRH, would we?
Or are you perhaps using that big set of rearview mirrors you acquired through Scientology, to say what you say?
“Readers can judge for themselves if these techniques resemble what goes on in the Co$.”
No Valkov, I don’t think the techniques resemble but the effect (outcome of what is done in CoS) seems to be similar.
– nice policies but not in practice (Upstat protection, rewards & penalties, with-draw request, bonuses, liberties etc.)
– pr about more OT levels, getting missions on purpose, IRS win, getting rid of SPs (David Mayo), new orgs, re-done books, lawsuits being won, I began skipping out of mandatory events because I was simply sleeping through them and the yada yada yada….
– false data laid in. wogs, X-SO=DB, judgmental – gays, drugies, psycs, over the counter drugs, I pulled it in, if I want to leave I have overts, on and on…
– duty, the world is doing it’s self in, we are the only ones… the only way…
– lose your kids, friends, eternity
And then yes, you get the blind, tunnel visioned, judgemental, un-emotional, not tuned in to current affairs, un-learning, ‘happy’ being out the other side.
Many escape the cult but remain still with the sickness.
CD, that is exacly right. The “brainwashing tech” was refined with Chinese backing in North Korea during the Korean War and then disseminated throughout Asia. It is particularly favored by Communist regimes which are always anxious to “re-educate” their populations into supporting their radically revolutionary goals. They apply similar principles to the education of their children.
It depends on how easily one believes that he is being subjected to he is being subjected because of his O/Ws, ‘evil purposes’ and generaly his ‘being wrong’. LRH said that only on the bottom of the tone scale (I think that means sub zero) one admits to be wrong. Obviously, that’s the goal of such actions. As-ising overts was supporsed to take that obsessive making self right and others wrong out. But to admit you’re wrong….that’s a different tech.
Wow, wow, wow! Thanks for telling the truth Marty.
And yes, it is brainwashing.
Here is the definition from Wikipedia under “Mind Control”:
“Mind control (also known as brainwashing, coercive persuasion, thought control, or thought reform) refers to a process in which a group or individual “systematically uses unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being manipulated”. The term has been applied to any tactic, psychological or otherwise, which can be seen as subverting an individual’s sense of control over their own thinking, behavior, emotions or decision making.”
Brainwashing? Absolutely. There’s a lot of good processes that help beings become less brainwashed, but boy, you sure need to side-step a lot of land mines to keep the PC moving up in terms of self-determinism.
There’s a lot of uninspected data put forth as fact. The “truth” rundown seems to me to be a tool that is used largely to ensure the sheeple have no desire or ability to critically inspect anything they are not sanctioned to look at. I can’t tell you how many PCs I helped who had been brainwashed into believing their needles were floating when they were, in fact, ARC Xen and beaten into submission.
Are you sure this was compiled? I did the TRD in the late 80s, my twin and I checking out on the advices and doing it on each other. We didn’t have any HCOB then, and as far as I can recall, this has never actually been written and it sure hasn’t been approved by Hubbard, an HCO Bulletin that is. So, who knows what the actual materials state, as I don’t have them to hand.
What you are describing is some really f’ed up shi#, no doubt. On the other hand, like I said, I’ve read the advices and did the action myself, and got it, and I sure didn’t experience the godawful nonsense you describe.
Too bad there isn’t an actual issue to see if DM had done his business on this thing too. At least we’d have something to compare our recollections with.
Great article, and great comments.
Lg, I must agree. Based on the long-term effects to US pows during the Korean War, who were subjected to “brainwashing”, many or even most of them had some serious problems afterwards that did not resolve.
I hope David St Lawrenc is right, that all can be helped with what we know now.
So, my guess, Dan, is that you did not just suddenly love Big Brother and say that the “Black PR” you experienced – DM treating people like shit – was all a lie and you were sure sorry. Am I right?
I mean – really – people were NOT holding a gun to your head, right? Forcing you to take it all back?
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Thank you for posting that again, Valkov, I missed it last time and it was extremely valuable to me.
@Ex-RPFer – another great example of the complete hypocrisy of the CoS when it comes to the Soviet style “ethics” and “justice” system. You would think that Ex’s years of upstat production would have earned her SOME “ethics protection.” Yeah … right….. the same ethics protection that David Mayo and hundreds of others have gotten over the years. The CoS flexes its punishment/force muscles especially when it comes to people’s 2D and money, because those are the easiest areas historically in which to hit HARD and CONTROL people (sleep and food deprivation work well too of course).
I was not in the SO or no doubt would have been sent to the RPF. But I had a similar experience to Ex-RPFer. THIRTY FIVE YEARS of proven production as a very accomplished auditor, CS and course supe. But ….. commit a certain “sin” and …….to say nothing of the fact that Ex-RPFer and myself were LOST as highly competent tech staff in the quest to “clear the planet” … and are both now happily out of Scientology.
But …. ha ha……my last phone call from Lundeen was that all my problems as far as ethics status goes COULD NOW BE HANDLED EASILY and I could come back RIGHT NOW!!!!!!! Guess what he wanted? Just ONE guess. Now, how are y’all so freaking smart? Yes, OF COURSE ….. he wanted MONEY!!!!!!!! (I had already had 10 G’s extorted on the cycle ….. but if I would just …….sorry Lundeen, the last crush money cycle woke me up … always a mistake to wake a person up by the brain washers).
To answer your question directly Marty – no, it is not too harsh to call this brainwashing. Setting this up was the most shameful act of LRH’s career (exceeding even his List1 witch hunt), if for no other reason than it was based on attacking people (and then essentially degrading them) for their thoughts. I’ll repeat that …. this was a penalty to punish people FOR WHAT THEY WERE THINKING (you know….. thoughts….opinions….viewpoints….Scientology Axiom TWO) and then to WORK on them until their thoughts were now being CONTROLLED by their brain washer. Implants without the lights and electricity (well, I guess there is SOME electricity involved …. why not restim the implant perceptics while you’re at it).
Ron had certainly slipped by this time to a high level of paranoia, megalomania and a general state of insanity. And he only got worse in the next few years until he died. His last major act was one of his most insane ones ……. we know him by his title COB RTC.
@Wendy Honnor – I will respectfully take issue with your statements that begin with “the entire thing….”, “every single..”, and “all of it….”
LRH came up with many, many original and startling ideas. First of all, his formulation of auditing processes, all run by the Auditor’s Code and run by rule to an end phenomena EACH TIME of a person having a new cognition (realization) about life and being VGIs and so little by little becoming more aware about their life and the postulates, decisions they have made and why they made them CAN BE FOUND NO WHERE ELSE (as LRH designed them).
I would also argue that Ron’s work in the early days did in fact result in increasing understanding by those who used it honestly and correctly. Just doing small amounts of Self Analysis with a person can raise them in emotional tone and resulting happiness (to say nothing of hundreds of more processes he formulated).
And there are numerous LRH ideas which to MY life have been earth shatteringly important – too numerous to name here, so I’ll just say ARC Triangle, Comm Cycle, Service Facs, Infinity Valued Logic, etc etc etc – I could go on and on about how I use Scientology ideas every day to understand life and make it better for myself and others.
I no longer respect LRH much as a man of honor anymore, feel little affinity for him personally and think he was quite insane much of his adult life … BUT I also recognize those points when he created works of genius and though he certainly evolved ideas from others – like Freud (as all great thinkers do by the way), MANY of his ideas (like the aforementioned auditing procedures and code) were works of highly ORIGINAL brilliance.
I’m 62 now, and I was a good Cl IV auditor when I was 21. I enjoyed auditing people VERY much as I did for years and still use those skills every single day in dealing with people from all sorts of different countries and cultures.
There is a majority of people who want to do good, and there are those who utilize church rules to hurt for pleasure like there are in the “real”world outside of the church.
I was under the impression that the Constitution outlaws ‘cruel and unusual punishment’. The Truth Rundown certainly is both!
Sounds like brainwashing to me! It really upsets me that good people are put through this crap for having the gall to think for themselves.
I have not seen a full copy of your “apology” on the intrawebz, but nor have I broken out the goggle-fu to find it. It may be out there, as you suggest. However, here is where the “apology” is discussed by the SP Times, and here is where you comment on it at this site. Your shift in viewpoints on the topic of “The Truth Rundown” (tech) is, IMHO, reassuring of an evolving conceptual understanding, but your description of the origin of “The Truth Rundown” doesn’t seem to encapsulate a wider view and, thus, full context.
I agree with the SP Times in its contention that the origin of that rundown can be traced back to HCO BULLETIN OF 31 DECEMBER AD 9 – “BLOW OFFS”. In that L Ron Hubbard teaching the reader will find, inter alia, the idea that the better a person is treated within a situation the more likely they are to leave it. More to the point, in this discussion, is the passage:
So, no: the “Truth Rundown” is not brainwashing. Rather, the brainwashing is done much earlier in the implanting of the concepts upon which it is constructed. The “Truth Rundown” is one many pieces of the tech which reaps that earlier brainwashing and, in doing so, serves a primary purpose: the protection of the group. This is achieved through two main means. First, it makes Scientology “right” and the supposed malefactor “wrong”, and, secondly, it derives justification for the disposal (without sorrow) of those individuals who commit the greatest crime within Scientology: that of speaking truth about the subject and L Ron Hubbard.
Yes, I wrote recently that I wasn’t any better off before SCN to be mad at getting into/out of it. But I also understand that not all had the brief experience with the Church that I had. Also, not all know how to run out COS implants. I only spoke about myself. And even though I somewhat dealt with it, I did see what had happened to me. It was ugly. I think one can get pretty bad if he sticks in there and plays their game thoroughly. I think that if with their Bridge they freed more than they enslaved with their other practices (even about their Bridge I’ve read some bad stuff, like invalidation of F/Ns, Clears, OT 7s running the same stuff for over a decade etc….eternal case) they simply wouldn’t deliver it. Why would a brainwasher/implanter want to help in the long run? Or aren’t people that brainwash/implanter brainwashers/implanters? Are all that stuff accidental? Or are they the cause of one man (DM)?
Marty, do you think this influenced Hubbards actions in this time period?
Miscavige accomplished his coup by commandeering the only line of communication to Hubbard during the last five years of his life, plying Hubbard with embellished and false reports of a dangerous environment to keep him out of communication with Sea Org members and his family. The reports falsely accused Hubbard’s family and lifelong friends of selling out to the enemy and that Scientology orgs had been infiltrated by psychiatric and government interests. He prevented true reports from reaching Hubbard in order to make his actions appear necessary and on policy and to solidify his position.”
Yeah, I think all want to do good. But what does good mean for each one? If I’m mad at somebody and consider him evil or something, I may justify myself harming him. If I see most people -or all- as evil and justify myself harming them, who is the evil one? Well, for me, all, for them…I’m the SP. 😛
Anyway, I don’t think all -nor most- are SPs in the Church. But if you buy the stories about ‘the bad wogs out there’, you can get closer and closer to being that…
Actually, if you read Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior you’ll see the broader context. Hubbard’s influence on Miscavige was far greater than Miscavige’s could ever be upon Hubbard.
The morning after I left the SO I went to a doughnut place
and had one plus a cup of coffee with a cigarette to top it
off. BUT I found myself constantly looking around to see
if any SO member was in the neighborhood. When in the
SO I knew where I was but now did not know if I has in
heaven or not.
Ok. Can I ask, how did you find out about what you wrote in “Five” above?
This is from your affidavit:
1. “I served with Mr. Miscavige in Scientology’s Sea Organization for 27 years. From 1982 to 2004, I answered directly to Mr. Miscavige. As Inspector General of Religious Technology Center (“RTC”), I was Mr. Miscavige’s second in command. Mr. Miscavige and I were the only Scientologists ever awarded Scientology’s “Medal of Honor” by its founder, L. Ron Hubbard. In the history of Scientology, no other Church executive worked with Mr. Miscavige more closely, for a longer period of time, than I did.
Did you read the book?
I am not talking about jesting or degrading with words,but psychological mindgames.
No, not yet.
Actually Jim, I can only think of one person who would
be one the TRD for a long time, namely DM.
Even Hubbard knew that not ALL men were basicly good despite his claim.
Your answers are there.
The onley positive thing I can say about David Miscavige is that perhaps he is a made sociopath by circumstances.
I also would like to see the alleged issue, if there is one.
Everything else is “hearsay”.
And yet Raven, despite that Constitutional prohibition, the Cubs keep taking money from fans to watch them play baseball (joke) .
The beginning of the end
You ignored a key sentence in “Blow Offs”:
“One can treat people so well that they grow ashamed of themselves, knowing they don’t deserve it, that a blow-off is precipitated, and certainly one can treat people so badly that they have no other choice but to leave, but these are extreme conditions and in between these we have the majority of departures.”
Certainly being subject to gang sec checks, crush reg cycles, forced abortions, TRD’s and RB’s, yelling sessions and musical chairs… all of this, I would say, fall into the category of “extreme conditions” would you not agree?
What we have are people willfully misapplying what Ron wrote, on people who are willingly bending over to take it. There is nothing in the “Blow Offs” HCOB that even comes close to “Brainwashing.” It is just a bulletin written on paper. I have personally pointed this one sentence out to MAA after MAA, SO member after SO member, and for whatever reason, they still ignore the “extreme conditions” clause and choose to be vindictive and justify their own bad behavior by saying the person who left is all bad.
And here I am again, once again pointing out this sentence. Tell me: Is this sentence written in Greek? Is it somehow impossible to understand so simple a concept? I am facetious, yet serious: this is not hard to understand. And people using “Blow Offs” to justify their own bad behavior is not brainwashing, it is criminality on the person’s part, and complicity by those who accept it.
Agreed. I always kept a weather eye on the church and how they chose to apply Ron’s tech and admin. The assumption of the TRD is that the execs and leadership of the church were men and women of good will and that the church was doing good. Of course, we know better. That was a bad assumption. Ron always assumed that leadership would be flawless. His whole model is based on a benign, incorruptible, well-intentioned top-level guy. There is NOTHING in the ethics and justice policies about what to do if the top people are assholes. The ONLY place that bad hats can hide with impunity in the Scientology structure is at the top of the org board, since there is no recourse to correct them there. That is a major flaw in admin tech. And, naturally, this flaw was exploited.
As a philosophy, there is wisdom in some of the Green on White. But as a practice, we could chuck the whole thing and do well. The proof is the indies who are doing well who are not blindly applying LRH admin “tech.”
“Open Source” Scientology really is the only way to go.
And from the books
Glad to hear that. I feel the same way.
Another thing “Ron” said was that there is no such thing as Justice in the hand of human beings. Appears that we are looking at a group of human beings. And what else could we expect when story after story shows how those who were willing to give up their next billion years couldn’t even get a piece of the Bridge themselves and instead were simply used as pawns on a board. . Homo Novis just never quite got out the gate. Planned by a man who wanted to be King? Taken over by a midget who thought he could keep the King alive through himself?
That may be true. I know it was for me – I knew the SO was mainly bullshit. I knew that misapplication of Scientology and crush regging and all that were bullshit. Ultimately, it helped very much for me to be trained properly at an early age. I went through my own doubts and concerns and weighed what I was learning to my then-limited life experience, and applied it. By the time I hit Flag as staff, I knew pretty much what Scn was about and what it was not about.
One of the maxims of the tech films that really, really worked for me was “If you know the tech, it will protect you.” I knew the tech. I knew it very well at a young age. When some clown MAA-in-training called me a “borderline suppressive” because I got low TA on Method One word clearing (where you are off the cans most of the time) I knew enough to call him on it and eventually get him taken out and crammed. It was incredibly upsetting to me. Incredibly. At the time, I looked at it as my burden to try to get tech correctly applied.
TO me, KSW1 is a great PL because I could see the effects of misapplication all around me. I mean, just looking over the TRD steps Marty laid out – if applied correctly could result in some good results. People do commit transgressions and they do let those transgressions get the better of them and allow them to justify their bad behavior. That does happen. However, when something like the TRD, or Sec Checks, or whatever, are applied in a hostile manner, with the intention to justify the org’s badness, of course it can devolve into an incredibly bad experience.
It is too bad that there is not an automatic shut-down on the tech that forces the auditor to use the tech for the benefit of the PC, not for the benefit of the bad hat exec watching on the video. Except that there kind of is. It doesn’t work in the church now, right? The only problem is that the church is still calling it “Scientology.”
There was nothing wrong with an MAA-in-training taking me in for an interview. Nothing. There was everything wrong with his incredibly stupid misapplication of the tech.
There is nothing wrong with confessionals properly audited. I have both given and received confessionals (sec checks to some of you), to good result and lasting good effects. There is everything wrong with taking the same confessional list and the same e-meter and grilling the recipient mercilessly and accusingly and then telling the person he was guilty, guilty, guilty, and driving the recipient to falsely admit to “crimes” just to get it to stop. This latter application? Not Scientology. Just because DM’s people do it does not automatically mean it is Scientology. It is willful abuse.
I guess the point here is that sure, people put up with the abuse because they had the purpose to change it and correct it, and they were in for the long haul. I get that. I was that, for a while. But the proper way to do that is not to roll over and present your ass to DM and his minions. It is to call them on it, and back it up. The problem now is that calling them on it and backing it up gets you the Debbie Cook treatment. Okay, so be it. Better that than go the route of Heber, or Leserve, or Yager, or David Wilson.
On the converse side, the way to correct it is not to call people “Scilons” either, or say that all Scientology is “brainwashing.” Because it is not.
Dr. Robert J. Lifton’s Eight Criteria for Thought Reform
Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.
Mystical Manipulation. There is manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or some special gift or talent that will then allow the leader to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences as he or she wishes.
Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.
Confession. Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members’ “sins,” “attitudes,” and “faults” are discussed and exploited by the leaders.
Sacred Science. The group’s doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.
Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clichés, which serve to alter members’ thought processes to conform to the group’s way of thinking.
Doctrine over person. Member’s personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.
Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group’s ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also. (Lifton, 1989)
Reading these comments from people who have received the TRD from people who got decent, or at least non-life-threatening results, I think we can all assume that it is the manner of application that causes the problem, not the TRD itself?
You can take a surgical scalpel and perform the surgery needed to save someone’s life. You can also take a scalpel and cut someone’s jugular vein.
The problem here is that there are rules in place that protect people who use Scientology vindictively. And that there are people who have accepted this vindictive use of Scientology. This has been done to the point where “Scientology” became its obverse: The vindictive application of Scientology.
Grasshopper; Thanks for that reference. Amidst all this Ron bashing, I get the feeling that half the people commenting really hate him. Practically everything I’ve read by him made perfect sense and aligned with my observations. When I add something, it is usually anecdotal evidence of something he mentioned or was leading towards Can you give me the reference, I may need it in the future since I still have many friends in the church but am going to further my training in the Indie field.
They may exist, but I have never actually met anyone that I could say with certainty was suppressive to his core. I have met many who were acting in a suppressive manner. Sometimes their whole life. Just my take on it.
My dad once told me that the cause of a person being a true SP is “stuck in an incident where he is surrounded by enemies with no way out.” Do you know if this is a reference. If I read it, I may have been asleep at the time
Anyone know this reference?.
Hahahaha Joe!!! Yeah they will never get any more from either of us. Production isn’t what is important. Helping people is not important. Being good, doing what you are told and delivering wheelbarrels full of cash is what is important. I was never good at any of that.
Couldn’t help but notice David Miscavige is smearing Monique in the press again against the backdrop of his restraining order. Maybe someone should send that critter a dictionary so he can understand the words in that decree and how his flippancy for legal doctrine and ritual disregard for the demands of civil law are flagrant violations upon the social intercourse the rest of the nation deems valid and useful.
“…..my twin and I checking out on the advices and doing it on each other. We didn’t have any HCOB then, and as far as I can recall, this has never actually been written and it sure hasn’t been approved by Hubbard.”
This was at the Int Base. People running stuff on each other with no HCOB by Hubbard on it. The top most group of devotees in charge of all the rest. One of them had even been in charge of Qual!
And this was several years ago. This was “K.S.W. loyalists” up at the Int Base! Living on the same grounds as David Miscavige! Keeper of tech! Laughter!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is brain washing.
I was subjected to a slightly different version with sec checks and fprd to make me more docile. It is mental manipulation in some of its worst forms.
I know what you are saying and couldn’t agree more. It’s like one big sales job. Big hype, big pitch, much a do about nothing. But of course we got benefit otherwise nobody would do it at all.
Anyways, if you want more closure on what Hubbard did, I believe it’s found in this 1928 book by Napoleon Hill, the Law of Success.
Hubbard did read his books, and Hubbard did do Affirmations just as it is explained in this book. Napoleon calls it Auto-suggestion which would be the same as postulate, positive thinking, self hypnosis, affirmations, etc.
I’m only about a third way thru it but you can see where hubbard got a lot of his ideas and simply expanded on them big time. I believe this book is the road map hubbard used but I don’t know.
CD, offhand I must say I don’t agree. Not that I know that “all men are basically good”, but how do you know what Hubbard thought or believed?
The psychological dynamics described in the theory of the SP person make sense and there could well be basic goodness in the person even there.
Hubbard did say that if an SP were processed and his case solved, it would be difficult for the ex-SP to confront all the bad things he had done. This argues for the “basic goodness” also.
Sounds like David Miscavige, Alsoo it is as if he is describing Paranoia
Looks to me lots of suppression was present at this place.
However, doesn’t answer my question. Thanks.
OK, me either. But the belief that people are out ethics and need to put ethics on them, can justify the means, if it can.
t is exactly the concept of th SP’s psychological state that I have, but I’m sorry I don’t have the exact lecture to hand.
I do recall Ron describing some situation where, for example, the person in a battle is about to get an arrow through his heart or some such, and he “stops time” right there. From then on he lives with the constant terror of being just moments away from death, and that’s what he is fighting.
Perhaps someone else here can recall the exact lecture?
Hubbard talks about 2 1/2 %, roughly compares with the psychiatric number on psychopaths (gradïent scale tough)
“You should upgrade your idea of what an SP is. Man, meet one sometime! A real one! A real monster….Well, in all the time we’ve been around here we only had one SP that I know of. One real SP that was on staff…. And I don’t know of another single SP that we’ve ever had on staff. Isn’t that interesting. You see all these SP orders and so on…Don’t throw it around carelessly, because this is an–a very exaggerated condition, SP”
Hubbard, “About Rhodesia,” lecture, 19 July 1966, Saint Hill Special Briefing Course tape transcripts, Lecture Set 421-434, pp. 223-224
The 2 1/2 percent.
The Anti Social Personality.
The book Marty recomends:
“The Sociopath next door”
You hear what you listen for and you believe what you agree with. I’m here, Grasshopper, and I see and understand. Thanks.
Thanks Jim, what you said cleared it up for me!!
Margaret, if a person really does not have any O/W’s on the Church of Scientology or any of its adherents and is pressured for overts, witholds, evil purposes and things that are not there, then nothing is really going to come up, EXCEPT the ideas of the demented people behind the sec-checking. That in itself is almost like a whole intensive or OT level! 🙂 If a person thinks that David Miscavige is an ignorant moron due to some lack of knowledge, bad habit etc. on his part, then a person thinks that David Miscavige is an ignorant moron based on some lack of knowledge, bad habit, etc. on his part. And that same applies to other people that might be in the church as well Margarte, NOT JUST David Miscavige. 🙂
This has been going on for a long time in the Church of Scientology Dan. 🙂
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Remini Subpoenaed to Testify in Harassment Suit Against Church of Scientology
Actress Leah Remini has been subpoenaed to testify in a harassment lawsuit against the Church of Scientology and its leader David Miscavige, according to a lawyer.
David has garnered more press and fame than Tom Cruise in the last six months, for acting bad!
I am beginning to think he gets a thrill seeing his name and face in the media. He is probably creating all of this out P.R. on purpose!
Sorry, inserted in this space for reasons known only to God.
SKM, He wrote that they were running it each other but, “We didn’t have any HCOB then, and as far as I can recall, this has never actually been written and it sure hasn’t been approved by Hubbard, an HCO Bulletin that is. So, who knows what the actual materials state…” Would suggest there was no HCOB about it. I have never seen a course pack on delivering it as a “rundown”. Or a check sheet. Sounds like it belongs in the same category as dedinging.
Note: ” this has never actually been written and it sure hasn’t been approved by Hubbard”
I know for a fact that a few OTs (40-year veterans and highly classed) when called in for a rollback and investigation by Freewinds missions have been intimidated into handing over their personal laptops for inspection. Obviously to inspect their email address books and the content of their emails to and from friends and to look for other heretical stuff.
They tend to lose many friends immediately after that breach of personal trust is found out about and will never be trusted again. Fact. Life is too short for friends like that.
“You mean you colluded with the Nazis against your good friends and neighbors?” Same theory.
Part of the version of the Freewinds OT8 “field interrogation” that I know about consists of the OT reading down the list of suppressive acts in the PL one by one and being asked if “you had ever done that.” Might be asked to do an informal A to E (in secret) after that.
A whole “field interrogation” off meter can take up to two weeks . . . if you’re that willing and have the time.
So this is a totally different situation as the one Marty described above?
“Ron originated it and micro managed its development and compilation.” – Marty
As I said before, I can imagine that LRH developed a list in order to make the place safe enough for him to come back. But not as described and not as set into operation later on the chain.
However it may be. The fact that Miscavige was more busy to install his version of the “Truth RD” and even use it on publics (see Leah Remini and others) instead of taking care of the Super Power Rundowns is a good insight in his motivations.
Just compare the original Ethics Repair List HCOB to the description of the “Truth RD” as described by Marty in this opening post.
You want DM to like you and send you a letter?
My older brother took the HAS course back in ’69’. Then read a few parts of a couple of books and some references. He seemed to talk about SPs a lot. He later hitchhiked to L.A., lived on the Strip and in Tapanga Canyon and got completely fried on drugs. Ever since, he has been obsessed with SPs. ‘They’ completely ruined his life and makes his life miserable every day. You can’t talk to him for more than a couple of minutes and it comes up.
Sad. He will agree that he needs to do something to get up the bridge, but simply will not DO anything at all. He flips eggs for 8 hours, comes home and sits.
To me, this is PTS type 2 gone mad. Everyone in his environ. reminds him of suppression in the past and his own suppressive purposes, which he now tries to suppress with a vengeance.
Me, I never paid much attention to suppression. If something pops up, I handle it, make it known to others and go on about my business. There are lot of really good people out there to put my attention on and my life is better for it. I am improving myself spiritually, helping others to improve themselves, and spreading info that I have found to be true.
Works for me.
Sorry I’m not up to clearing the whole planet today or repairing the church this afternoon, But I’m getting there.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think everything Ron said or did was perfect. But we would be a bunch of morons if we didn’t take the workable data and methods and run with it, improve on it, correct the flaws and so on.
Lao Tsu, The Buddha, Jesus, Moses, Ron, all had their flaws, all had their writings altered, all had some of it used for evil purposes, and all were bashed at some time. But they all had many things of value. You can spend an entire lifetime pointing out errors in all of them. But that is just plain stupid. It gets you and me nowhere.
Most people who bash real Scientology over and over daily are really very lazy, not going to the trouble to find out what is true. A few have been harmed by pseudo Scientologists and now can’t tell the difference. Some have been fed false data or nothing but the bad actual data and their opinion is cemented. A few are just dumb asses who can’t tell the difference in steak and sh** on a shingle.
There is a lot of truth out there. Don’t dwell on the errors. Find some truths that work for you and others and put out some G** Damn effort in using it. Get your face out of the computer, get your hand off your privates, get out of the closet, get out there and DO something. It’s not really that hard.
Just my rant on things. MarkNR
Thanks Cat. Don’t dwell on it, but don’t ignore the real danger when it appears.
Touch my nose
regarding you brother.
It may help to talk with him about the time when he first came across the subject of PTS/SP. On course. Maybe in a conversation.
For some reason he uses the data as a “solution”.
Let him read “The Sociopath Next Door” by M. Stouth. It may help him to see this topic from a different angle. Many former church scientologists recommend this book and I do so too.
Good advice for any person Mark. I was just relaying information being a non-scientologist. I try to be accurate tough, PAB 13 ON HUMAN BEHAVIOR, written in 1953 is where Hubbard shows a bit of psychological insight on this matter.
valkov, you don’t have to search so hard in other paths to find the nuggets.
That is Ron’s way of dissing other paths. “see, says Ron, the world hasn’t found peace or truth yet because other paths are not as scientific and modern and rational and accurate and and and and and.
This is elitism, this is arrogance, this is ego, this is ignorance and completely untrue. The nuggets are there if you want them.
Cat; You should read may paper “The desire and effort to control others”. It explains a big piece of this that is not handled in Scn to my knowledge. I can send it if you like. Just a couple of pages. 5 mins.
You would be surprised Valkov how much wonder, beauty, realizations, love and joy there is easily found in other paths.
Somehow equating Scientology with “the best” “most workable” is like Coca Cola dissing Pepsi.
Just plain silly and immature to rah rah rah my path is best, better than yours.
Especially with how it is going for Sciwntology.
The path I am on has great PR. Everyone loves Yogananda. 99.9%
Hey wait a minute……… My path is better that yours……. Ah… That feels better. I love looking down on the little people, they are so…………………………. Little.
Om Peace 🙂
Just curious, Valkov.
What do you think about the idea that L Ron Hubbard put brainwashing technology into Scientology?
It’s been mentioned once or twice in your proximity before (or perhaps even more than that), but I have never really seen you grab this idea and run with it.
I do know that you are a very well read and quite independent thinker.
So what do you say to this? Brainwashing in Scientology?
And don’t get me wrong. My intention is not to send bad people to get punished.
I think we talk about here what went wrong with SCN. How it is supposed to be as a sort of ‘healing’ and it winds up ‘injuring’ instead, in some cases.
I think that to say that ‘you put ethics’ or ‘make him see the truth’ to somebody is the among the most arrogant and contradictory to SCN basics thing I have ever heard. In SCN one is supposed to know truth for himself (if he does) by himself, and be ethical the way he sees fit (that based on that ‘man is basically good) That’s why there is processing instead of giving advices and/or commands about how to live. And the purpose of the SCNist is to merely guide him to do that. That’s all. You would ‘put ethics’ only to those who wouldn’t let others be self determined and have their own ethics. And that only very temporarily. In other words, you would normally put ethics on those who put ethics in the Churches now.
If one cannot trust another that he is good and if he is free/be self determined will do good, that’s his own case. And he should deal with it within himself, instead of hunting witches.
Great post. Helped me with some stuff I was trying to figure out. Thanks 😉
Not harsh enough.
I do believe that such a procedure could be called brain washing, especially if you factor in the sleep deprivation and crappy food. You may say that one had to be sessionable. CRAP. i was never sessionable whilst in the SO. Doing one all nighter a week is enough to wreck your sessionability for the month considering the crap you eat and the little sleep you get. I now know I was not sessionable ever since I am out I get every night sufficient sleep and I eat healthy food and I feel great!
yup, the guy is now brainwashed. Actually brainwashing is a simple procedure. The jehovah witnesses are also experts in it. Just tell someone who had some shitty time recently that he is now the choosen ones over and over and that rest of the world, the wogs, the riff raff, will be all bird food when the sky starts falling down and yes, the sky will fall down and you give him some lectures and bible study sessions like this over and over and voila: an Automaton.
SKM; Thanks. I’ll save this post and look for it. Hope the rest of my rant wasn’t too offensive, but a little pragmatism needs to be interjected from time to time.
SKM; I’m a Purif Supervisor and I’m currently building a sauna in my garage for him and my wife. She is a pharmacy technician and has quite a build-up in her system. When I finished the purif, it was like wearing sunglasses for 20 years and suddenly taking them off. The world was bright again. And I had no drug history.
Thanks Cat. I’ve never read that. A brilliant paper by Mike Rinder. That PAB explains the detail why an SP is a ‘no case gain’.
Apparently Marty used it with the idea Hubbard orginated it and Jim used it with the idea it wasn’t approved by Hubbard. Go figure!
I know the idea of dating an evil purpose was originated by Ron because I have had that auditing, but it was on a different rundown.
The apology letters though, and taking up K.R.’s or outpoints one has noticed and applying that to “one’s evil” is totally out tech, I don’t know how anyone made that stick.
How the hell could you use the tech from the data series evaluation’s course if you weren’t supposed to spot out points? Why would you ever write a K.R.? How then could the Church ever initiate a justice action or C/S someone for sec checks? The Sea Org is an established witch hunting body! Their purpose is to put ethics in on the planet, and the way it’s going right now is that the planet is putting ethics in on them!
I just read Nancy Monys book ” My billion year contract” where she describes a psychotic break she had as a result of some of this stuff and it makes me sick. It is inhuman.I am so glad I am no longer in the church.
CD, there is a difference between “essence” and “personality”. LRH was including the “antisocial personality” among those who are “basically good”, which is in their essence. He talks in lecture about what happens when an SP is, through auditing, released and his “SP case” is handled or erased.
I have found nothing as detailed and step by step as the “red on white” in other practices. I did not equate it with any elitist attitude, either. That is your dub-in.
In fact other practices tend to be dependent on individual, person-to-person transmission. What LRH tried to put together was something different.
After reading through all the comments tonight I watched a movie (a sci-fi thriller) that I had first watched four years prior to my coming out from under the spell of SC. I recall that when I first watched the film I was quite impressed with it being such a revealing metaphor for the human story and condition. My interpretation of the movie, though, was very much influenced by my rigid SC belief system I had at the time so I missed a lot. Wow! What a difference a shifting of belief systems will do for how a movie can be interpreted! Tonight when I watched The Island, perhaps because I had just read Marty’s blog and all the comments…I just kept seeing this incredible metaphor of my SC experience being played out in front of me. It was wild!
If you haven’t seen the movie, The Island (starring Ewan McGregor), or if it’s been awhile since you have…I would say give it a go and see what you think. It’s damn entertaining and if you have eyes to see and ears to hear…well, it’s not just entertaining, it’s a classroom.
True, Lawrence. I think we’re on the same page.
I guess I wonder what part of the elephant you are referring to, when you say Scientology? I mostly like listening to LRH’s lectures about auditing. Those to me are “Scientology”. I could care less about the rest of it, never having been a “joiner” and generally leery of organized religion etc.
In terms of lectures, LRH made it clear early on (1952) that Scientology contained enough knowledge of the mind to be very dangerous, far beyond Orwell’s 1984.
I’m with Chuck Beatty, that what is needed is full disclosure of ALL of LRH’s directives and missives to the various parts of the organizational elephant, the Sea Org, the GO, etc. As I understand it he wrote a lot of specialized and “need to know” type of orders to the various divisions “Advices”, “Directives”, “Orders” etc etc.
Ron the “auditing tech developer and compiler” and Ron the “empire builder”, in terms of establishing the CoS as a temporal organization, were clearly 2 different people and his goals and methods were completely different. I think that in terms of what he was trying to do in establishing the CoS octopus, he apparently came to feel the end justified any means he felt were necessary to use.
Thus he did encourage some people in the Sea Org to be ruthless, he did impart specific knowledge of “black dianetics” to some people, etc.
Did he expect it to reach the proportions and the narrow focus it has reached in the CoS, I don’t know. He may have, because I am one who does believe he foresaw the way things were likely to develop, and in fact promoted to some people the necessity for the creation of a “free zone” outside the Church. Given the history of Christianity and its “dark ages”, he may have thought history was likely to repeat itself.
I have actually posted about these things before. Thanks for asking.
Brian, as usual you have apparently missed the point I was making, and responded to a completely different point i did not make at all.
See Joe Pendleton’s response to Wehdy, just below. he says it better and with more specifics than I put in my post, but he is basically coming from a similar place as I am.
Thanks for the mention of Yogananda, though.
DM would be writing letters for the rest of his life and then some…… 🙂
Thanks Cece. I see some common elements, like “ratting each other out” through KRs, for example. It creates an environment in which each person is completely isolated from others in terms of communicating openly and truthfully. Doing so leads to being shown how wrong you are, and is taken as a “confession”. Gradually one’s own sense of self is undermined.
Bur I am relying on the reports of others, as I never experienced the TRD, FPRD, or sec checking.
I have been thinking recently, that “a person takes away from Scientology what s/he brings to it.”
I think Miscavige had a psychotic break to avoid realizing he had killed Lisa McPherson. It’s all been downhill for him since then. This indicates a feeling of guilt he cannot confront, and an intense terror of being found out.
If this is true, it is also a kind of proof that even Miscavige is basically good. If he were a true 100% sociopath he would have no such feelings.
Yes, this is a perfect description of the Chinese/North Korean/Vietnamese – you name it – elements of their brainwashing basics.. Also apparently used extensively in the CoS today, from top to bottom.
Leave it to Miscavige to come up with, and enjoy using, a TURD process.
You write…”I think Miscavige had a psychotic break to avoid realizing he had killed Lisa McPherson. It’s all been downhill for him since then. This indicates a feeling of guilt he cannot confront, and an intense terror of being found out.” From A Course in Miracles perspective the killing, the death, the idea of going ‘downhill’ and the guilt are all illusory components in an illusory world. An illusory world made (not created) by an illusory consciousness referred to in the course as the Ego. The Ego is not an entity it is AC (artificial consciousness – artificial mind) and the world it has made is a world of duality where even all that is perceived to be ‘good’, ‘beautiful’ and ‘sublime’ has an edge of fear to it. Sin (occurred in the past), guilt (is held in the present), fear (exists as a future consequence) and bodies, existing as separate individualities, are all elements of control elements that the Ego mind uses to imprison Spirit’s attention which is fragmented and encapsulated in individual bodies. But, of course, it is impossible for Spirit’s attention to ever be imprisoned. However, Spirit can believe that it is.
Individualities, believing the world they are in is real, carry enormous burdens of grievances, guilt and fear that, for the most part, exists below their level of awareness/consciousness (the ego projects its world from the bottom of the unconscious mind). Individualities, not being able to confront the magnitude of the unconscious grievances and guilt they carry, project these illusory components onto an imaginary world seeming to exist outside of Self. In this way, Self transfers all grievances and guilt to illusory ‘others’ (although Self very much believes the ‘others’ are as real as he or she is) and the ‘others’ then become the sinners and the guilty. Thereby, in the Ego world we experience a continuous enactment of the Karpman Drama Triangle (Victim, Persecutor and Rescuer) that serves to keep Spirit immersed in problems of varying magnitude and distracted from true perception. In the Ego’s world everything is always about the body. The body is the Ego’s domain.
Interesting to observe where and how the illusory DM is projecting his illusory guilt.
The way out of this mess, according to the course, is to use the illusion of forgiveness to undo the illusory sin, guilt and fear made by the Ego mind and thus eradicate the Ego mind and all the Ego mind has made. In this way, Spirit returns home from its exploration that never really happened, in what the course refers to as being “the tiny mad idea.”
Valkov,I understand you see a uniqueness in Ron’s work. And I understand that you did not have much if any negative experiences in Scientology. It is possible that this is a schism in our communication.
I see this post by Marty as telling of something not right with Ron. And it is my opinion that you see a justufication for the ills of Christianity from this post.
We are worlds apart.
Ha, oh my i just got up and am responding to last post. So many posts.
But my position is the same. It is my take you fly wing man for Ron. You justify his actions and writings with rationalities based on his benevolence.
We are worlds apart
Another SICK situation:
“CLAIRE: Yes, this is the version as I knew it. There are a few things to cover in regards to OT Preps:
If you are a stalled Clear, you will be programmed for the False Purpose Rundown (FPRD), also known as “evil purpose sec checking.”
A stalled Clear is defined as someone who went Clear but who did not then immediately continue on to their next level.”
Since when? Not when I was around! Someone who does not buy their next action upon going clear is deemed evil? FPRD in the non interference zone? Can this be true? Can this really be true?
Absolutely MarkNR — that reference exists but it’s on a tape — I’ve heard it — “fighting battles long gone” was also on that tape.
Sorry don’t know the name of the tape but probably part of the PTS/SP Course and is one of the tapes. WAIT — I think it’s something like “How an SP becomes one”
Brian public confession to Valkov:
I can get enthusiastic about ideas and from time to time can be self centered and not give proper attention to others.
My wife is very good at serving others that way. She teaches me the virtue of listening and serving others selflessly.
I am still a work in progress. If I have not given proper attention to your ideas and instead been over enthusiastic about mine I apologize.
That being said, my ideas regarding these topics are sincere and have a benevolent purpose: exposing the dangerous ideology of only way cults.
The dissing of Christ, the manipulating of minds, with processes and doctrines of Ron, I, with all my authentic being denounce with no.
There is no valid justification for these atrocities birthed from the mind of one man.
He doesn’t want to be found out okay , I am with mark Fisher who worked close to him. Wish he chimed in here more on tghis subject.
Well why would a 100 % sociopath want to be found out than ?
Well why did that not happen for himself than ?
I will get to you a bit later Mark, expect my e-mail sundaynight or monday, I like to have a clear head reading such things. Things on my mind and stuff
I am completely mystified how you can conclude that the TRD as outlined above and also in this remarkable little video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjbt9gVFIX8 can have ANY place any sort of civilized society. I can see how Grade II style confessional auditing has its (limited) value in the right circumstances with completely trustworthy practitioners, but the TRD? No. I would be interested to hear from people who have has a lot of FPRD as to whether it truly had any therapeutic value too, outside of the artificial write-a-success-story-isn’t-it-all-lovely environment of an Org. I did my Int clearance checks “FPRD style” and finished up believing I was riddled with evil purposes.
The reference is Blow Offs, HCOB 31 Dec 59. In vol III of the original red vols. In other words, the same HCOB people use to condemn people who leave because they were treated badly, states that it is perfectly reasonable to leave a group that is treating you badly.
“I think we can all assume that it is the manner of application that causes the problem, not the TRD itself?”
No. Any possible benefit is at the risk of far more serious harm as far as I can see.
re, your first paragraph:
I am not interested in the 2 different reports by them both.
But Marty says he knows that LRH “originated it and micro managed its development and compilation.”
So I suspect there should be a compilation of some sort.
Where is it? What did Marty read back then? If not a HCOB, how looked the final, compiled issue, like.
Is there still the original “prototype” if you so will.
And how much was it changed from the original if at all.
If you read the opening post you’ll find that what Miscavige did to Leah is attributed to a compilation LRH allegedly originated.
The question is, did he for sure? Or is it just a vicious alteration of it?
That’s exactly my point. He is not “100% sociopath”. He is basically good like anyone else. The goodness is buried. In Christian terms, Man is created in God’s own “image and likeness”. If God is Good, as he is claimed to be, then Man is also basically good, if he is indeed “created in God’s image and likeness”. In the West, there is a lot of emphasis on how “sinful” Man is. This is the wrong emphasis, they are validating the later postulate. In at least some of the Eastern churches, there is more of an emphasis on “sin” being a secondary, temporary “stain” on the original, basic goodness. I think this is a healthier, more therapeutic view.
As for DM, he has not had the opportunity to be released from his “SP case”. It is usually very difficult to get an SP to accept auditing, and he has reportedly refused it all down the line.
Because he avoids getting the auditing he needs.
I am sorry that I cannot help you.
I object to the word “illusory”. Yes, I think I understand how it is meant here, but it has other connotations. If the phenomenal world and all the action in it is merely “illusion”, why bother to to object to Miscavige’s conduct, or anything else that happens or that people do? Why object to torture and killing? After all, it might be argued, it is all an illusion and no-one is really being hurt, right?
Some similarly object to the characterization that “Life is a game” or “Life is like a game”. LRH actually said “Life is best likened to a game”. I simply think “illusion” is a word that carries too much baggage at this point in time.
Marty’s wife is in the middle of an executory (on going) legal process.
He may need to pay heed to certain challenges on the blog put forth in an effort to compromise her position. Perhaps this is something he could address under different circumstances. We don’t know, I don’t know, I am just aware of these circumstances and conditions.
We are worlds apart if you say so. That’s why I suggested we let it rest. I feel you are continuously slighting me by caricaturing me as LRH’s “wing man”, “defender”, “rationalizer”, etc etc.
I personally think you are, as you say, interested in “ideas” and not so much in the realities of the world and real people, including LRH or indeed myself.
Which is OK of course, but it does put us on different pages so to speak.
So I suggest we let it rest; I won’t bother you any more, and you continue on with your idealism. Just be aware that a severe and unbending idealism can easily become an oppressive elitism that can become demeaning to others.
I was thinking more about brainwashing. In doing some Googling, I came across the following link on cults and brainwashing: http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cultinfo.html
Several theories are discussed. Without going into the detail, the key elements are summarized as follows.
Eight conditions of thought control: Milieu Control, Mystical Manipulation, The Demand for Purity, The Cult of Confession, Aura of Sacred Science, Loading the Language, Doctrine over Person, and Dispensed Existence. Scientology employs all eight.
Marks of a destructive cult: Mind Control (undue influence), Charismatic Leadership, Deception, Exclusivity, Alienation, Exploitation, and Totalitarian World View. Scientology employs all these.
Changing to conform with the group: New Identification, Behavior Modification Techniques, Mystical Manipulation, Mind-altering Techniques, and Eliciting of Confession. Scientology seems to fit this pattern, too.
BITE, what is a cult: Behavioral, Informational, Thought, and Emotional control. Scientology does these.
I find myself with a dismal thought. Can the good, workable parts of Scientology be proven and separated from the cult organization?
I would tend to think from Marty’s senior positions totaling almost 30 years, he would have far more knowledge, insight , and privileged information than someone who never worked on the administrative lines at the Int base, was only a post for some months and then spent the rest of the time on the RPF where people are not even expected to complete check sheets, and training = “read it drill do it”.
Marty also did “standard” training on the Freewinds and the Flag Land Base and was trusted with what was considered “the most valuable Scientologist on the planet” as a tech terminal.
He had access to communications from Hubbard that others never had or saw. And this is probably a closer reason as to why John Allender and his domestic terrorism squad landed in his front yard and on ABC news yesterday morning! How did it feel John? Being featured there on ABC television ? Nice piece of work John! Never occurred to you that you were being a POTENTIAL trouble source gone ACTUAL trouble source and you were a dramatizing PTS did it John? What gross out P.R. for the Church of Scientology. The lot of you are a mess of loose cannons. The virus of Scientology. In your self issued license to HARM ATTACK AND SUPPRESS OTHERS !
OSA now means, Organization of Suppressive Annihilation.
CCHR now means, Common Critters for Humiliation and Ruin.
No, brainwashing is NOT too harsh of a term for the TRD. It is too MILD of a term. It is directly opposite of the concept of Forgiveness as covered in Marty’s last post. Manipulating someone’s mind for hours on end until they “apologize” is a revolting, base practice. The TRD is just one example of the Spiritual Terrorism which is woven into Scientology. And that is the term I would apply to the TRD, not brainwashing. For more on Spiritual Terrorism, I invite you to read the book by Boyd C. Purcell of the same name. http://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Terrorism-Abuse-From-Womb/dp/1434378888/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381009430&sr=8-1&keywords=spiritual+terrorism
I always wondered what THAT was about.
I had naively presumed that the steps on the grade chart and one’s record as a Scientologist were what made one eligible for OT levels or not. But in light of this “required” sec check it appears that one is presumed to have out-ethics unless “proven” otherwise. And in addition to that, being “in-ethics” includes not only good behavior, but more importantly “thinking the right thoughts” according to DM. Personally, I reserve my inalienable right to think freely.
David Miscavige is out of favor with the Gods. Seriously bad omen in Texas:
Omen in Florida:
Only your recollection?
Yes, this certainly fits the definition of brainwashing.
The “Truth RD” is an oxymoron. Rather it’s a total mind control to overwhelm the being into saying what they need to-just to stop the pain!
It’s sickening that this was/is used on others in the name of “Spirituality”.
What evil purpose lies behind this rundown? This methodology is the antithesis of making the able more able! What kind of “treatment” introverts the being so as to cause a shift of their own viewpoint to one that is enforced upon them? Thus causing this now caved-in soul to relinquish their personal integrity and any remaining self-respect, in order to hopefully survive.
Marty, I thank you for giving us this blog & your books which have so clearly delineated and exposed the “things that shouldn’t be” that most of us knew but couldn’t put our fingers on.
You have created a place of healing!!!
Hugs to you and Mosey.
Actually I don’t mind whether or not DM is a 100% sociopath. Or 99%. Or only 5%.
He may as well be high grade PTS. There would be no difference.
Detrimental actions lead to decline without ethics change. And he is busy with it and he won’t change, as he can’t help himself.
You know how it goes, if the person can’t put ethics in on himself consciously, he will do subconsciously.
I ment Hubbard himself
I avoid auditing too. How about my csase than ?
I liked all your comments.
Regarding the book: you will find it under “recomended reading” here on Marty’s blog.
A sauna is such a great idea. I wish I had one.
I have a brother on drugs too and I gave him assists last time he visited me in summer. For 10 days locationals and no drugs. He had good wins and we had a good time.
I visit my family soon so I will find out how he is going.
I wish you good luck with your brother. I hope he will like the book.
I did some writeups of the TRD in 2005, see above.
It’s done in two stages, the Rollback steps come first, to find the “black PR” lines (utterances or written statements), and then one sec checks for serious transgressions that a person supposedly committed comparable to the negativity of one’s uttered “black PR” line against the supposedly/presumed good person or good group.
In cases where a person committed in fact some transgression, they get the gains from just coughing up and taking responsibility for that transgression and that’s normal expected human gain.
But in the case where there’s no prior transgression, and one’s “black PR” is in fact NOT “black PR”, then this procedure is indeed brainwashing and control from the superiors who ordered the Truth Rundown be run on that guiltless person.
The Truth Rundown in context of history, makes me think of doing a long whole history of Scientology’s sec checking.
The old List 1 list, where we used to use List 1 on the Emeter drills to try to produce the rock slams on each other, before that became taboo, and looking at the actual wording of the questions for security checking staff in the early 1960s, there were questions which essentially are asking for “bad thoughts” about LRH and MSH. “Do you have any evil intentions towards LRH?”
To me, because LRH, while I was in, and my viewpoint when I was in, was that LRH’s legacy of tech was something valuable and productive of causing people to achieve high spiritual states, like exteriorizing permanently, reestablishing people’s ESP abilities, I presumed the subject actually delivered the OT goods; and in this context, thus, LRH to me, always was one to cut slack with, and respect, for any of his “trivial” faults, since his tech produced spiritual OT goodies for people, I thought.
So, the history of black PRing, goes back to black PRing LRH, actually, and the List 1 of the old Emeter Drills book, did have the top people of the movement as a category that should NOT be disrespected verbally or in writing. It’s also in the Code of a Scientologist this tacit implied agreement NOT to verbally or in writing disrespect or speak back of the movement’s top hard working people, and surely NOT speak or write badly of LRH.
And finding one’s transgressions, which everyone has, and finding the biggest secrets and transgressions of a person, in my opinion, really just is a convoluted method of changing the subject of the criticism against LRH or against other leaders or against one of LRH’s writings and rules.
TRD, sec checking to deflect a criticizing staff member or public away from the valid point of their criticism, is essentially how TRD becomes brainwashing, and how sec checking itself, especially the gang bang sec checking is really vicious mental torture.
And the Int Base life exposed in all the critical ex senior member books is all mental torture, and grounds for serious valid criticism of top ranks life, and even average Flag staff members’ lives, and even Class 5 org staff members’ lives, when this stuff goes on.
It’s institutionalized, it’s all orderly, and it is wrong, when it is used to silence valid criticism, and to me, it’s irresponsible use of guilt to deflect off of valid criticism.
It’s pretty obvious, all the valid critical points against Scientology (bad leader Miscavige, and bad rules that bind people and continually cause bad things like the inevitable extremist shunning that the disconnection rules force the staff and public to enforce on one another) are still there even if the members are deflected to locate their transgressions.
Amy Scobee’s book tells this point best, I feel! It’s impossible for Int Base staff who’ve been beaten up by Miscavige to ever think positively of his beatings of them, there’s just no way how Miscavige has behaved that Truth Rundown will “work” to cause those people to not think Miscavige lost his mind when Miscavige was beating them savagely!
“Is ‘brainwashing’ too harsh of a label for this?”
Sadistic torture, though, comes to mind.
The cult defenders will none-the-less cheer, “Hip, hip, hooray!” Ugh…..
Valkov, you write…”The goodness is buried. In Christian terms, Man is created in God’s own ‘image and likeness’. If God is Good, as he is claimed to be, then Man is also basically good, if he is indeed ‘created in God’s image and likeness’. ” There are some big ‘ifs’ there. Personally, I don’t think God created Man. I do suspect that God did create Spirit…what Christians refer to as Christ. Christ being an extension of God and exactly like God. But Man…that’s a different story. Who or what created Man and in exactly whose image was Man created? Man, I don’t think is anywhere near capable of conceiving a God that could extend itself as a Christ. However, I do think Man is plenty capable of being able to conceive of a God in Man’s image including all the dichotomies that seem to be inherent within Man.
Genesis 1:26-27 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”  So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Interesting isn’t it…the use of the word ‘Our’ in verse 26 then ‘own’ in verse 27. Ever hear of the Anunnaki?
To me, it is not likely that a perfect God (if there is such a thing) would extend itself as anything but perfection. However, a false God, being false, being an imperfection, making things in its likeness, would extend itself as imperfection. If Spirit is believing itself to be ‘Man’ then, in that belief what happens is…well, we know very well what happens don’t we?
That is not it at all. I don’t have the finger energy anymore to answer to those who devote their lives to justifying atrocity.
After reading a few of these responses I have to beg the difference.
Brainwashing, NO. The way I had it done on me or applying it to Pre-
OT’s. Folder work, with culling enemy lines/black PR could take many
days but the rundown took maybe 3 – 4 days, that was it. I had some
great wins and the people I gave the TRD to were also happy with the
results. I had maybe 2 or 3 things I had said (we did not take up
thoughts) and the apology letters were responded to with mostly;
“I do not remember you saying that but your apology is
HOWEVER, on the RPF, after you were done with the full program,
you had to get through a final assessment with a clean needle.
That’s were a lot of RPF’ers got stuck. The assessment had COB
and INT and other irrelevant items on it and this video had to
be approved by 5 C/S’es, the last one being an RTC C/S. So you
can imagine these C/S’es were more than meticulous in finding
any little minuscule quiver of the needle before it went up to the
next C/S or they would get a cram. Even a slowed F/N was of
course stomped upon.
Taking up thoughts goes against all confessional Tech. But it
would not be surprising if that is/was done.
Yes it is brain/mind/thetan washing indeed. It sure does not make sense. Sorry you and others had to endure this. 😦
As my Scientology involvement straddles two lifetimes (as do several others who also post here), I enjoy reading the information that continues to surface, as the Evaluation unfolds.
“two facts don’t jibe → pull the string” The two sides of the metaphoric scales have been going back & forth in my mind. Auditing Tech vs Admin Tech with the KSW construct as you pointed out a few months ago. Eye opening. Simplicity.
• Now this: “Part of the orders to the Int Base included ensuring the several hundred personnel there were completely loyal to Hubbard, for security purposes. All manner of security checking broke out in response.”
How can the alleged Master OT of all OT, be SOOO concerned and obsessed with loyalty, commitment and security of the Sea Org staff in his entourage? Why? Was LRH afraid that someone would leak info, or of some withholds of his being missed? Make sure nobody pulls on the Wizard-of-Oz curtain? I am interested.
Chuck Beatty ~~
As a survivor of 2000 hours of Truth Rundown in the infamous RPF GULAG (i just don’t know how you made it through 2000 hours of it)
your comments and input is valuable.
These must be the «Tidal Waves» that have been predicted …
(Tropical Storm Karen … Pouw???) Gargantuan! Sure packs a punch.
SKM, Not sure what you are asking here. I don’t know of anyone who left the Int Base with packages of L.R.H. advice’s and documents. Most people have their personal telephone, photographs, any other evidence that they were ever there, taken away from them before they are allowed out of the front gate. It is no secret Marty escaped on his motorcycle with the clothes on his back.
They have had the staff parked off the bridge since the day they route onto the EPF. Most of them for decades. But if you are a public and you can’t cut a check for 30 grand for your OT preps and OT levels, you are put on FPRD while in the non interference zone! That group is really tripping!
While doing a little bit of false data stripping on myself a while back I discovered that the original bulletin “The Non-Interference Zone”, which allowed almost NOTHING except for solo auditing to be delivered between Clear and OTIII, had been altered in the 1990’s to allow all kinds of things to be run on Dianetic Clears, including sec checks and even Ls. (In the original bulletin Ron had said very emphatically “No Ls”. )
Anyway, it is apparent that the little 3-swing F/N rat has been busy gnawing away at the pillars of the Bridge for some time.
The source of the most of the Out Tech in the COS is hidden in plain sight and appears on stage at every church event.
If only more people will wean themselves of the “cool-aid”, open their eyes, see what they see, and decide what is true for themselves then perhaps conditions could be applied.
But until then, the death spiral continues and ground zero is approaching fast.
Again, it was the manner, and not the actual procedure. What did Hines do when asked “what was the overt you did right before you saw that?” (“that” being Miscavige hitting someone)? What did he do? He lied. Was there an overt? No. He observed David Miscavige hitting someone. And then, who knows why, he lied when he was asked for an overt.
This is why I was never in the SO. This is directly related to my post above: He should have said “fuck you.” And instead, he invented shit to please God knows who. Why did he do that? Why did he invent overts to explain observations he saw? Why did he go along with it? I know why the so-called auditor went with it: Because he was an untrained RIDIDI RPF member who never had any training in his life – as I am sure neither did Hines. So, we have untrained people grilling other untrained people on the RPF on processes that need to be run correctly. This is a recipe for disaster – witness the roster of ex-SO reading and contributing to this blog and others. The REAL problem was the SO, the RPF, and the squirrel “training” these people did – and I mean the entire culture of the SO, starting in 1968. That is the fucking problem.
Other people went through this procedure, found real things – real overts that did result in altered perception – and had gains from it. No doubt by the Grace of God.
And before anyone says “you had to be there,” I was there. And I said “Fuck you,” and of course, my tenure on staff didn’t last very long.
And again, I feel like an asshole. But I just can’t understand why Hines or anyone else went along with it.
You know, Martin, you give a guy two Tylenol for a headache, and it helps him. You give the same guy 8 or 10 Tylenol, and his liver fails.
AS far as the current smear campaign the Church is running against Marty, all I can ask is this:
If Marty Rathbun is the one violating people, why is the restraining order on David Miscavige and the Church of Scientology?
Yes – “Memoirs” nicely connects those dots from that period.
Suggest you read ‘Brainwashing Manual Parallels in Scientology’.
One of the problems with the word “auditing,” as used in Scientology, and also by Hubbard, is that it includes things that are not really “auditing” per the definition of that word when the word is newly presented to newbies: it changes, bait and switch.
Which brings us to the uncomfortable possibility that Hubbard, while he genuinely enjoyed being a innovative psychologist – and definitely, IMO, had a knack in that area – also had a long term hidden agenda, a hidden agenda that corrupted the subject of Scientology.
Actually I was not stating what I believe, but what I understand basic Christian belief to be. I am not a “believer” myself, nor particularly interested in what the qualities of God, if such exists, might actually be. Logically speaking, IF God is truly “omnipotent”(all-powerful) as “s/he” is reputed to be, then S/he could have created us and the entire universe including the detailed memories of each and every one of us, the evolutionary fossil record and everything existing, just 5 minutes ago and we would never know it.
In short, I view discussions of “God” in that monotheistic sense, as a game.
But fundamental Christian beliefs are that 1. God is Good, and 2. that God created Man “in his own image and likeness”. So, IF God is Good, and Man is created in God’s own image and likeness, it follows that Man is also basically “good”, just as God is basically good. That is simple logic. It is not necessarily what I myself believe.
As for the use of different terms like “Our image” in one place and “own image” in another, don’t forget that what you are reading is one translation of many. The Bible has gone through many iterations in different languages and was a synthetic document to start with. The Eastern Orthodox churches, of which I am nominally a member by birth, do not view the Bible as a primary source in any case.
I feel you; the litany of excuse, the justification of atrocious acts, the rationalization of reprehensible behavior is pretty tiresome.
If we are going to discuss each other’s literacy and ability to understand, I would be grateful if you would, please, point to where I stated that the “Blow Off” HCOB itself has anything to do with brainwashing. You and I both know that you can’t and have simply applied another L Ron Hubbard concept: i.e., “always attack, never defend”. This explains the ad homs, obfuscation, and strawman. But I don’t blame you. It has already been well established that those who feel compelled to speak up on behalf of the “tech” find themselves in the forlorn position of having to defend the indensible and, thus, such sophistry is all that’s left to work with. Meanwhile, those who have read – and understood – my comment will see that what I have done is agree with a previous observation that ideas contained within the “Blow Off” HCOB stem from an antecedent and, by doing so, I addressed the question posed in the OP.
Those Scientologists who have followed L Ron Hubbard’s instructions to carry out criminal acts (cf: “Operation Snow White”, et al) have done under so after having spent significant amounts of time absorbing (and very often writing success stories about) all sorts of justifications. In addition to the “people only leave due to overts” there’s also the: “greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics”, “man cannot be trusted with justice”, an SP “may be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist”, “if possible ruin utterly”, “any person from 2.0 down on the Tone Scale should not have, in any thinking society, any civil rights of any kind”, “any person very high on the Tone Scale may level destruction toward a suppressor”, “there is the supreme test of a thetan – the ability to make things go right”, “command intention”, “a person who is PTS is often the last person to suspect it”, “a person who is critical of us is a criminal”, and “hitting them from as many directions as possible”. That’s just a few of them. In fact, its a matter of honour to a Scientologist that they “never fear to hurt another in a good cause”.
It is the reverential, systematic and milieu-enforced relentless inculcation of “workable” concepts such as these which constitutes the “brainwashing” by which those under its influence justify to themselves the destruction of others. So, yes: extreme conditioning, indeed.
I have been thinking about the title of your blog “Moving on up a little higher” and particularly in relationship to this video “The Shrinking Cult of Scientology”. I for one consider myself worse off out of Scientology for the simple fact that I no longer have a viable 3rd dynamic.
When I was a Scientologist I had “help Ron clear the planet”, when I was a Christian I had “go preach the Gospel”, now I have nothing going on the 3rd dynamic. Scripture says “without a vision the people perish” Proverbs 29:18, and every person on this video appears not to have “Moved on up a little higher” but have moved sideways if not downwards. Many people who have become spiritually aware are quick to report that there is no going back. So for me it is about settling a new goal – having a new vision. That saying from Scientology “Never regret yesterday, life is in you today and you make your own tomorrows” seems to me good counsel.
I suppose what I am really enquiring about is, how do you see your future now you are no longer a Scientologist, what constitutes for you “Moving on up a little higher”?
Final analysis from me is this. Wild animals put their children and the species as a top priority. Here is David Miscavige, paying gas for women to be hauled to the local abortion clinic, to kill their own children, so they can continue to serve him. And he had the gall to accuse Leah Remini of being self absorbed.
When your priorities fall below those of wild animals you have a situation.
When wild animals, who can not even read have a higher mercy and regard for life than humans do, I don’t care what they are selling. And I don’t care who is selling it. There are people that are on a lower ladder of awareness than animals living out in the wild.
I’ve seen a lot of people blame the Church for their sorry assed parents. Throwing them under the bus for some belief system. For the record I do not blame the Church for the parents that can not carry this simple trust of raising a child. I don’t even blame the parents. There are handicaps born in every species. But the fact is as a group, it does not get more self important than declaring children a liability. If you can fair game an unborn child you will have no problem running over adults. If you can fair game your own kid, there is something very very wrong with you. If you are willing to set your kid up for a loss, there is something wrong with you. And the thing that is wrong with you is very serious. Because wild animals have risen above that purpose.
I really do not have to tune in another day to understand how sick this culture has become and how sick some of the people are who are in it.
People with the purpose to put ethics in killing their own children. How fucking self absorbed can you get? More self absorbed than a wild animal turned loose in the jungle.
That shalt not kill is one of the ten commandments. When people can’t think with that, the simple ten commandments. they are not going to be able to think with what ever advise came after that.
On top of that just consider that David Miscavige bears false witness 24/7/. And instructs his volunteers to do the same daily. He can’t even master the ten commandments! And he thinks he is on higher ground!
I don’t need any other evidence that he is gone!
O.K. David you took down the Church of Scientology and all that it had to offer. Not sure who you are reporting to but take my commend with you. You accomplished something the rest of us were not privy to. Hidden agendas. Evil intentions. Covert battle plans. Whatever. You took down Hubbard. Go on home now and report back.
Mission accomplished already why are you still hanging around? Game over!
I agree, Joe. I think Ron developed a lot of very worthwhile tech. I’m out and I’m auditing and I still love it. When the tech is applied correctly, mental mass dissipates with attendant good indicators and greater understanding. And yes, you were quite the c/s, auditor and supe.
I understand that.
This was not my original question.
Please see here …
And how does the compilation issue looks like which was used on Mrs. Remini.
Yes Valkov, as you note…the Bible has gone through many iterations in different languages and was a synthetic document to begin with. This is why I have always regarded the Bible as a collection of metaphors open to as many interpretations as there are viewpoints. And definitely not anything to build a religion around. I have never viewed the Bible as being a primary source either. That said, I still believe that a person, if so inclined to look and has eyes to see and ears to hear, can find numerous metaphorical examples that reflect true perception scattered throughout its pages. To me, though, the Bible has much more to do with false perception (a false world) than otherwise.
Valkov, you mention that by birth you are nominally a member of an Eastern Orthodox church that did not view the Bible as a primary source. I’m curious, what did your church view as being a primary source?
While I believe that it is impossible for me to exactly duplicate what you are saying I do understand what you’re saying as what you are saying is very familiar to me.
You know Valkov, for me, describing anything as being ‘basically good’ or, for that matter, ‘basically bad,’ implies a ‘but.’ For example, God is basically good but…
valkov this is not a bother as you say. This interchange is basically very good. You do bring up personal attacts though as your position from time to time.
You make things personal, that is my take on you my friend. When you are strongly disagreed with, you ad hominem.
Valkov, I can understand your objection to the word ‘illusory.’ But while saying that I can understand, and I feel that I do, I can also say, with more than a little confidence, that whatever I think your objection is about that is not what it’s about. 🙂
You write…”If the phenomenal world and all the action in it is merely “illusion”, why bother to to object to Miscavige’s conduct, or anything else that happens or that people do? Why object to torture and killing? After all, it might be argued, it is all an illusion and no-one is really being hurt, right?” Yes, IF the phenomenal world and all the action in it is merely ‘illusion’ why bother about anything, why object to anything because none of it is really happening? Well, we bother and we object because we very much believe that it is all real and that it is our responsibility to do something about it. There is so much ‘evil’ and so much ‘good’ in the world and there is so much ‘good’ that needs for us to save it from the ‘evil.’ And that seems to be “The Game of Life” in this world. But, one of the main purposes of this game is distraction. What is it distracting the players in the game from? What doesn’t it want the players of the game to look at? It doesn’t want the players looking at Source. It doesn’t want the players of the game discovering who and what and where they really are because if they do that then the game will be over.
Valkov, what we refer to as ‘Life’ in this world has no meaning or value except for what meaning and value we assign to it (our considerations about, our belief systems about). And in a world of perception, in a world of comparisons, in a world of duality… we assign (based on our preferences) everything we perceive more or less meaning and the more meaning we assign to something the more value it has for us. The better it is for us. Conversely, the less meaning we assign to something the less value it has. It is less good for us.
Because the world we perceive exists as a duality, we can simultaneously create special ‘Love relationships’ and special ‘Hate relationships’ that we assign much meaning to. Having special Love and Hate relationships is how we really spice up the game. It’s also how we really get ourselves attached to and stuck in, the game This is how, through our belief systems, we make the reality we experience. But is the reality we experience actually real? We seem to have free will, we seem to have freedom of choice but do we really have either?
In the Matrix trilogy, at the end, Neo (‘The One’) meets the Architect and the Architect tells him what his two choices are. He can take the door on the right and return to Source and save Zion or he can take the door on the left and save the girl (a special Love relationship) and his species will perish. Neo doesn’t chose the door on the right. Instead, he chooses to save the girl. Neo has become so attached to the game, so attached to his special relationships, that he can’t let them go. Now, it does appear that Neo in his choice to save the girl does also ‘save the day.’ But, ‘saving the day’ in this case is really just restarting the game, albeit, restarting it in a condition of harmony, perhaps even nonduality. The harmony, of course, will not last. The game will inevitably become corrupt and split into a duality of good and evil (good versus evil), humans and machines (humans versus machines). In other words, the game just follows its original programmed purpose i.e., to keep the Spirit so caught up in playing the Game of Life that it will never be able to discover who, what and where it really is.
The Architect told Neo that he was the sixth version of the program anomaly…I wonder how many versions of the ‘anomaly’ we are? How many times have we had the opportunity to choose to return to Source but instead made the choice to restart the game? Why would we chose to restart the game when we could return to Source? I suspect that we continue to chose to restart the game because, for us, the game has more meaning than Source. It seems that we cannot not conceive of Source except through perception and perception is based on a belief of more than less than.
There’s a scene in the Matrix where Neo is meeting with the Oracle and the subject of choice comes up. Neo wants to know what’s the point of making a choice if his choice has been predetermined. The Oracle informs him that he has already made the choice. That’s not why he’s here. He’s here to find out why he made the choice he did.
Valkov, if you have never seen the Matrix documentary Return to Source I highly recommend it. It’s about an hr long and you can find it on Vimeo. Just search: Philosophy and the Matrix – Return to the Source.
Excellent , rational metaphor, Grasshopper. You know, all those bashers who keep saying “It’s all nothing but brain washing, no value to any of it.” etc, etc, etc. I have to put them in just a few categories.
Those who received incompetent and/or intentionally harmful Scientology Now they are stuck with erroneous considerations that they cannot change. Funny, that Scn can bring one to a condition where he can see and evaluate info accurately in present time and can give one the ability to change his mind.
Years ago I heard verbally that Ron once said or wrote ‘The biggest problem in Scientology is incompetent auditors.’ A very courageous statement coming from the father of auditing.
Next are those who have not worked with any significant amount of Scn and have heard mostly negative things, whether true or not, and have formed an opinion they cannot change. Because of being wronged in the distant past and/or committing wrongs in other matters, feel they must speak out .
Lastly are those who are just ‘no case gain’ cases. They just want to stop anything worthwhile and their comm should simply be shoved to the side. Wait, perhaps some of it should be heard so that we can understand what descent people are exposed to and to learn how to discount it.
To look at Ron’s body of work in detail and to say it is all hogwash is just plain stupid. This statement is obvious in the extreme.
I’m not the quickest dog in the pack, but even I can see the enormous potential in this science. As for picking out every imperfection and blaring it out loudly? Many have developed better light bulbs than Edison’s, but to call him stupid and evil would be retarded. And yes, it is a valid example.
Even the ‘Turd’ RD has value when used wisely, skillfully, honestly and when it is actually called for. Come on people, THINK.
There is no justification for committing illegal acts. That people have done so in the name of the tech is a failure on the part of Scientology leadership, including L. Ron Hubbard, and a moral failing on the part of the Scientologists who did it. There is no doubt Ron and his followers crossed the line defending his creation, and in so doing, violated the very principles that underlie Scientology. And by the way, the core principles are not “if possible ruin utterly” or “any person from 2.0 down on the Tone Scale should not have, in any thinking society, any civil rights of any kind.”
You quoted “Blow Offs” out of context as do so many others. You either missed or ignored a key piece of the bulletin – just as so many Scientologists have. People will latch on to a concept and then hold on to it until the bitter end – applying (or misapplying) it rotely, and without reason. Some people will latch on to the negative and push that, which unfortunately happened in spades in the church, so I understand your bitterness toward the whole subject. I guess I can’t expect you to separate the wheat from the chaff, and I doubt you want to anyway.
I think there is another one too, with a shade of difference from your first one of those who have received incompetent or intentionally bad auditing. If the preclear has not made an effort to study the tech, yet got a lot of auditing, he inevitably will not understand things about what is happening to him and will be more likely to be unhappy with his auditing. Not all the time, but more likely. It would take a very seasoned auditor to catch this each time it happened during a session.
The co-audit is what LRH pushed, train as you go up the Bridge, and of course the crush demand for income eventually nuked that out of existence. “Training is a lot less expensive than auditing, so why sell THAT? What a waste of a Reg’s time.” One of the most ignorant things to say. It’s the smartest thing and the safest and most helpful thing you could do for a pc–get them to train.
As a trained pc I once knew that a Grade 0 auditor was really going the wrong way and I told him so. He insisted he wasn’t, he wouldn’t let me out of the auditing room, so I sat it out with him, got out, and refused to go back with him until he was corrected on his obvious mistakes. I never did go back in with him just to be safe. The session was so off the wall that I suspected he’d falsify his worksheets too. If I hadn’t known about what he was doing I could’ve suffered more and more things that seemed disagreeable to me, maybe felt it was my fault for misunderstanding, wasted more and more money and felt worse and worse. I can’t tell you how many times being a trained pc helped me understand what was going on and it made it go faster and more effectively as well.
Didn’t mean to ramble quite so much–but this thought was triggered by the very sour comments of some people who spent crazy amounts of money on auditing without getting a good foundation in training first or along the line. With the method of extracting money from people I am sure they never even had a clue they could’ve gone a more economical and effective route. That is what’s disappointing to me and actually pretty suppressive.
Some basic logic there TO. But that type of brainpower
is sorely lacking in today’s church.
…And Mr. HZ has overts of his own, no? PK
I wish my pc folders were donatable to some university for examples of how one goes through all those past lives, blah blah blah.
Come to think of if, I supposed freezone Scientologists could donate their pc folders, or would they want to?
Somehow pc folders seem like a long term albatross over Scientology’s head, a whole other sub subject.
Making up whole track overt chains and ev purp chains, is like writing sci fi stories, no big deal.
I liked the Expanded Dianetics the best, I did just the left side handling, and my favorite was the listing and nulling on the PTS rundown and other listing processes.
I was just chopping wood, running overts this lifetime to death, and making up past life chains right out of my imagination, no big deal to me today, or then, for that matter. (I loved the Happy Valley mest work, we built a fricking dam up above the water well for the Happy Valley property in the mtns, that was great fun, I thought, for instance.)
Great post Chuck, thank you very much! And the link, too.
Basically CoS is like any other organization, the bottom line is a person is either “with the program” or not, and the leadership decides. Then it’s either “my way or the highway”. All this stuff I am reading reminds me of that psychiatrist in Canada who did projects for the CIA etc, who used drugs and ECT in attempts to wipe a person’s personality back to a “blank slate” state. He was attempting to discover what was left, after you wiped out everything that was “wipeable”. I kinda see the extremes of “black dianetics” in the same class. It wouldn’t surprise me that this kind of “auditing” creates physical changes in the brains of folks subjected to it.
Yers, you are quite right about that.
I have no doubt LRH had several disparate goals, trying to kill several birds with one stone – the stone of “Scientology”. One often quoted being, “To smash my name into history”. I also think there was an evolution on his part that was partly a response to how his core ideas were met by some.
When I first heard of scientology, I assumed anyone would be able to separate the wheat from the chaff; this turned out to be so not true! Now I think each person takes away from Scientology whatever they bring to it in the first place.
LRH did point out early on, 1952, that Scientology contained knowledge of “command and control” of the human mind and spirit that could put Orwell’s 1984 to shame as a namby-pamby pantywaist organization (my own characterization of what he actually said in some of the PDC lectures I have seen quoted.)
Brian, you do realize that characterizing me as Hubbard’s “wing man”, “rationalizer”, “defender”, are all “ad hom” you are applying to me?
Also, not all “address to the man” is irrelevant or fallacious, because by nature of being in this game each one of us is inevitably assumes a limited identity and viewpoint. The nature of “viewpoint” is that it denotes viewing from a particular point or perspective and thus precludes omniscience. Otherwise there would be no need for us to communicate, as we would each “know” everything the other person knew or saw or thought. Because of this, “where the other guy is coming from” can be relevant to a discussion and not necessarily a fallacy.
There is a difference between “defending” someone against all reason and fact, and pointing out their positive as well as negative characteristics. I believe I think out of the box, about LRH. He did good things, and he did bad things. That is likely to be closer to his objective reality, than the black and white one-dimensional cartoonish characterizations I often see posted about LRH.
Although I think his story would make a great series of graphic novels. One pretty decent movie based on his early developments of Dianetics has already been done. That being “The Master”.
Hubbard was not himself an SP. Although I tend to think he did not always take advantage of auditing that might have helped him in some way.
So is “justification” a bad word?
1.the action of showing something to be right or reasonable.
Law and “Justice” are based on it. Note the same root for “justice”.
And being of the “Vietnam war” generation, viewing how the government sometimes behaved back then, I never saw “Snow White” as “criminal”, although I was not a participant. When the people who have the guns pass the laws, they criminalize whatever suits them, and are not necessarily just. Sheeplike submission and obedience are not necessarily the correct actions. Ask Gandhi.
Until you find an auditor you can trust, I think I would avoid auditing too. That is only common sense, especially given what we have heard supposed “auditors” doing in the CoS.
Actually Monte, the Eastern branches are more similar to Roman Catholicism which as I understand it also does not view the Bible as THE primary source.
The mysteries and meanings of the Christian beliefs are primarily contained in the rituals and liturgies, the initiative teachings, the actual vestments of the priests, the actual physical design of the churches, etc. It is an elaborate and detailed system of Symbols, interpreted by the initiated priests, and designed to create specific emotional and intellectual effects on the people participating.
I think in Christianity God is supposed to be an Absolute, with no “buts”.
Back in the 1970s, where I was, one did not call himself a “Scientologist” until one was an auditor or training to be one. This was reflected in the names of the courses – HAS, HQS, HSDC. You became a Scientologist by DOING, by which I mean auditing others.
Sure I think they can be separated out. I think Marty and some others do it. It takes a great deal of restraint to make sure you have your Act One in, and not use what you know for selfish ends.
Back when this all started, there were more auditors than there were non-auditor PCs. To be a scientologist was to be an auditor. Hence the term, HAS, Hubbard Apprentice Scientologist, HQS, Hubbard Qualified Scientologist, etc, etc.
When you are a trained PC, you know what you are looking for. There is a built in danger to this, of course, you can be told what to look for. But that is a danger that cannot be helped. To remove this possibility completely is to bar most from the bulk of the gains available. We, most of us, are trying to get people up to the point where they can be responsible for their own case as quickly as possible. It’s not the auditor who pecked out your eyes or ran you through with a spear and locked in all the emotions connected with it. Its not the auditor who talked you into slapping your kid or burning off that planet with all it’s inhabitants. The auditor is the one who spent years busting his ass to learn how to help you release yourself from these things. And these guys, at least in the Ind. field, receive far less exchange than the value of their help.Thanks, Rojo and sorry it led me into another rant………Mark
I guess the fundamental common element is they are all procedures directed at the nullification of a person’s own reality, and the installation of some other realities.
Wow! It’s over. The critter has formed his own religion right before our eyes. And he did it under the bannner of Scientology.
I find the below most tiresome:
The Hare Psychopathy Checklist – Revised
GLIB and SUPERFICIAL CHARM — The tendency to be smooth, engaging, charming, slick, and verbally facile. Psychopathic charm is not in the least shy, self-conscious, or afraid to say anything. A psychopath never gets tongue-tied. They have freed themselves from the social conventions about taking turns in talking, for example.
GRANDIOSE SELF-WORTH — A grossly inflated view of one’s abilities and self-worth, self-assured, opinionated, cocky, a braggart. Psychopaths are arrogant people who believe they are superior human beings.
NEED FOR STIMULATION or PRONENESS TO BOREDOM — An excessive need for novel, thrilling, and exciting stimulation; taking chances and doing things that are risky. Psychopaths often have low self-discipline in carrying tasks through to completion because they get bored easily. They fail to work at the same job for any length of time, for example, or to finish tasks that they consider dull or routine.
PATHOLOGICAL LYING — Can be moderate or high; in moderate form, they will be shrewd, crafty, cunning, sly, and clever; in extreme form, they will be deceptive, deceitful, underhanded, unscrupulous, manipulative, and dishonest.
CONNING AND MANIPULATIVENESS — The use of deceit and deception to cheat, con, or defraud others for personal gain; distinguished from Item #4 in the degree to which exploitation and callous ruthlessness is present, as reflected in a lack of concern for the feelings and suffering of one’s victims.
LACK OF REMORSE OR GUILT — A lack of feelings or concern for the losses, pain, and suffering of victims; a tendency to be unconcerned, dispassionate, cold-hearted, and non-empathic. This item is usually demonstrated by a disdain for one’s victims.
SHALLOW AFFECT — Emotional poverty or a limited range or depth of feelings; interpersonal coldness in spite of signs of open gregariousness.
CALLOUSNESS and LACK OF EMPATHY — A lack of feelings toward people in general; cold, contemptuous, inconsiderate, and tactless.
PARASITIC LIFESTYLE — An intentional, manipulative, selfish, and exploitative financial dependence on others as reflected in a lack of motivation, low self-discipline, and inability to begin or complete responsibilities.
POOR BEHAVIORAL CONTROLS — Expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper; acting hastily.
PROMISCUOUS SEXUAL BEHAVIOR — A variety of brief, superficial relations, numerous affairs, and an indiscriminate selection of sexual partners; the maintenance of several relationships at the same time; a history of attempts to sexually coerce others into sexual activity or taking great pride at discussing sexual exploits or conquests.
EARLY BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS — A variety of behaviors prior to age 13, including lying, theft, cheating, vandalism, bullying, sexual activity, fire-setting, glue-sniffing, alcohol use, and running away from home.
LACK OF REALISTIC, LONG-TERM GOALS — An inability or persistent failure to develop and execute long-term plans and goals; a nomadic existence, aimless, lacking direction in life.
IMPULSIVITY — The occurrence of behaviors that are unpremeditated and lack reflection or planning; inability to resist temptation, frustrations, and urges; a lack of deliberation without considering the consequences; foolhardy, rash, unpredictable, erratic, and reckless.
IRRESPONSIBILITY — Repeated failure to fulfill or honor obligations and commitments; such as not paying bills, defaulting on loans, performing sloppy work, being absent or late to work, failing to honor contractual agreements.
FAILURE TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR OWN ACTIONS — A failure to accept responsibility for one’s actions reflected in low conscientiousness, an absence of dutifulness, antagonistic manipulation, denial of responsibility, and an effort to manipulate others through this denial.
MANY SHORT-TERM MARITAL RELATIONSHIPS — A lack of commitment to a long-term relationship reflected in inconsistent, undependable, and unreliable commitments in life, including marital.
JUVENILE DELINQUENCY — Behavior problems between the ages of 13-18; mostly behaviors that are crimes or clearly involve aspects of antagonism, exploitation, aggression, manipulation, or a callous, ruthless tough-mindedness.
REVOCATION OF CONDITION RELEASE — A revocation of probation or other conditional release due to technical violations, such as carelessness, low deliberation, or failing to appear.
CRIMINAL VERSATILITY — A diversity of types of criminal offenses, regardless if the person has been arrested or convicted for them; taking great pride at getting away with crimes.The word psychopath can be replaced with the word sociopath throughout this page. The meaning is very similar, if not the same.
As for “personal”, well guess what? I am a person. So are you. Surprised? So what are you trying to do, keep things “impersonal”? Are you trying to “depersonalize”? Emotions too strong? Keep things intellectual, not quite grounded? A person IS “thought, emotion, and effort”, or “mind, heart, and body”, all 3. But an individual is likely to be predominately centered and operating from one more than from the other 2.
Did you know that traditionally there are 3 types of yoga, for the 3 types
As I read your posts, I create a mental “profile” of you, just as you create one of me and everyone else you read. These profiles are no more complete than any kind of psychological profiling at a distance. They come nowhere near capturing the 4-dimensional fullness of a living person. But they sometimes capture a small bit of truth, depending on the conceptual basis you are using.
So at this point I read you as a natural candidate for “bhakti yoga”, the yoga of devotion and dedication to an ideal. Alanzo is another I have read this way. There is an emotional focus and sometimes a lack of balance as the basic nature is passionate.
Thus you tend to see others as having similar orientation and dynamics, to yours, which is not necessarily the case.
I think the real question is, of LRH’s incompatible intentions, which ones ought to be forwarded, and which ones ought to be dispensed with, with relief instead of any sorrow at all.
““Everything in the subject is to be found outside the subject” may be true, but how many lifetimes can one spend sifting through, for example, 2,600 years of Buddhist writings alone, to find the gold nuggets which will really work for you?”
That’s what LRH told you, that it would take lifetimes to sort 2600 years of Buddhist writings, that he did it for you (so you don’t have to look at Buddhism yourself, clever! – but how did he do it if it would take lifetimes?). He picked anything useful for his own ends, to build his cult. To bend the mind of his believers into thinking his only was the workable path. But look at reality. Scientologists are the least free people. Scientologists are either unaware, or supporters of a criminal organization keept united by force and lies. It was created that way by LRH, who was the leader and first one to use force and lies to bend the minds of his followers, to wipe each member’s ambitions, dreams, goals, desires and hopes and turning them into a stare glare dedicated scientologist ready to lie and sacrifice everything to forward LRH own goals – utterly destroy any criticism and resistance and smash LRH name into history.
With enough lying yo can have people disconnect from their own families, give up their job, their own goal in life and their money. With enough lies you can have them pack themselves with explosive and blow themselves up in a crowded mall. With enough lies you cam make them CERTAIN they are doing the right thing. They are pleasing Allah, gaining their place in heaven, clearing the planet or protecting the only workable road to Total Freedom.
“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” Steven Weinberg
Greetings Valkov, my view of your being an apologist for Ron, became more apparent, to me, when: on reading Marty’s posts on Christ, instead of seeing Ron’s seeming hate and delusional bias towards him, you justified it with your generalizations and prejudice against Christianity.
When the topic of Ron’s desire to electrocute himself to free BTs and himself from suffering (electro shock therapy, a therapy he warred against his whole life) you argued his right to assisted suicide and “flew wing man” for his, in my opinion, an insane act.
So yes, I do feel that sometimes you justify some of Ron’s…………….. darker nature, with rationalities that are solely your own, because the implications of Ron being delusional, at times, is untenable for you.
These views of mine are a reaction to things you actually wrote, not who I think you are.
Excellent post Marty – thank you!!
Yes, Yes, Valkov. A small team of Intelligent insightful, skilled persons of proven integrity, such as Marty, Mike, Karen, Pierre etc.
What about my post I just wrote? What are your thoughts regarding my conclusions? Forget about me being this or that. What about my words regarding your words. I have given my position on your position as an apologist for what I consider irrational behavior by Ron.
Address my points not my spiritual practice. My practice is irrelevant to the argument.
Good point. While the means of “Snow White” were illegal and the act should not have been done, it is important to remember the times – MK Ultra is one of the the most heinous crimes against the human mind ever perpetrated, and it was funded by the government. Scientology was singled out – the FDA (FDA? Come on) raid in ’63, bans in Australia and England, the “enemies list” of Nixon. Nixon’s raid in 1956. Ah, Scientology – what a long, strange trip it’s been.
Haha, you are sharp, nice come back Valkov
I was not calling him an SP, that stuff is for another board. And thank you for answering regarding him and Auditing.
He kicked his best personal Auditor/listener out, one who himself wrote Scientology stuff
Joe, you and I have had more than one heated debate on this subject. You know where I stand. I am with Wendy on this one. To me it is just the same as a magic trick, the magician tells the audience he is gonna make a beautiful woman disappear from a box. The audience thinks, “ooohhh she is gonna disappear!” and then she does. It is MAGIC. That is the same with the tech. You are told, do process X and you are going to get Y result. Assuming that you WANT Y result and you BELIEVE it is going to come, then it will. Hocus Pocus just like the magician on stage. Is that good or bad? That is for the person receiving process X to decide. But that doesn’t mean that the tech is correct or it even works.
It works solely on faith. Nothing more. It isn’t surgery or science at all. If I go to a doctor with appendicitis, ANY doctor will do the same thing, they will remove the appendix to save my life. It works whether I believe it will or not. The appendicitis is gone. But if I DON’T believe in process X, or the Auditor, or myself, then it won’t work. That is the difference. It doesn’t work all the time because it isn’t technology at all. It is faith. Faith isn’t a bad thing and I am not saying that. If preclear A has a life changing moment from process X and becomes more able or a better person because of it Halleluja. But I feel the same way for preclear A as I do for Convict B who finds Jesus in Jail and becomes a good person and helps people for the rest of his life instead of committing crimes. Or Christian C who prays and prays at an alter of the mother Mary and throws away their crutches because they are healed. Good for them.
But to argue that the “tech” of Scientology is truth or workable is the same as teaching creationism in schools as science. It isn’t Science. It isn’t fact and it is actually harmful to present it as fact. Faith has a function. But since faith doesn’t have to be based in truth or facts it should never be presented as either.
Well, in the 1952 PDC lectures, Hubbard was speaking to people, many of whom likely remembered the 1951 turmoil of Dianetics, with Dr. Winter (who had written the Introduction to May 1950 ‘Dianetics’) calling Hubbard “authoritarian,” and publisher John Campbell calling Dianetics, under Hubbard, a “cult,” plus the later turmoil with Don Purcell, and it’s not surprising that Hubbard would have sought to reassure the newly minted Scientologists (Scientology had only recently appeared) that there would not be a repeat performance.
Hubbard also emphasized the power of Scientology and that, being so powerful, it, in the wrong hands, could be dangerous. All the while, Hubbard presented himself as anti-authoritarian, and reassured his listeners further by positioning himself as an opponent of authoritarian use of Scientology.
No wonder so many let their guard down and trusted Hubbard, with assurances such as that, combined with the repeated meme of “Scientology is the only hope of Man,” etc.
And, while the Scientologists’ guard was down, Hubbard, systematically, over a period of many years, implemented those same Orwellian ideas and methods on them.
Yes, LRH did say that. However just because LRH said something, that doesn’t make it untrue. If Stalin told you 2+2=4, would you automatically assume it was a lie? Maybe you would, if you have bought into the critic’s party line.
I have been interested in psychological/pilosophical/sef development issues for decades, and in this case, my opinion is my own.
There is a faction on ESMB etc who promote that line, but somehow none of them have ever posted any specifics about what can be found or where. My position is similar to Joe Pendleton’s comment on this blog, where he responds to Wendy’s comment. If you’re really interested, look that up.
Joe’s comment is actually right below.
Thanks, Lurker for another example of a bunch of negative generalities, no real detail, no real knowledge of the subject of which you speak. Common.
Communication worthy of being brushed to the curb like many others.
exRPFer, I’ll have to say that what you’ve posted does not gibe with my experience back in the day. I have no idea what, where, or when experience you have with Scientology; mine was in the 1970s out in the field. I was never on staff, nor even trained much beyond doing some of the HQS; however I did give a few sessions to folks outside of the “bubble”, without predicting, “evaluating”, or suggesting any kind of results, and yet got good results with assist type processes. Essentially without giving them any kind of “R-factor”. These were all on people who had never heard of scientology.
And I think my experience was far from unique.
My tentative conclusion is that what you posted may be somewhat valid, but based on your observations from “within the bubble”, observations of subjects who were already within the Truman Show so to speak.
There are far too many contrary reports, for me to think your global conclusion is valid. Also, people are not that suggestible overall, especially in the field. You were within the bubble; perhaps that accounts for your suggestibility and that of others you observed there. Perhaps you have remained that way and have since been told “It’s all placebo effect; it’s all suggestion”, and you have nodded and thought “yes, it was all suggestion, nothing really happened”.
I I do in fact know several people who say they believe all effects of any kind on a person are fundamentally “placebo effects”; but I find this similar to the “mind only view” of some people, who believe all existence is “illusion” and nothing really happens, and no one is really ever helped or harmed. It doesn’t really account for much of anything.
@ MarkNR and Valkov, Yes, I did the same. Started with HQS in 1973. Still some of the best stuff I experienced. And I give all my training the credit for being able to keep myself out of a lot of trouble, see through all the crap, then calmly plan/maneuver leaving for three weeks, taking all my possessions too, and got the heck out. Mark–that was a great rant! We don’t talk enough about the training on this blog IMO, so I love it when someone talks up the value of an auditor (pre-GAT) and their accomplishments. I sure had a TON of them as an auditor and those are as great or greater moments for me as some of the Bridge I’ve done. In the absence of the Auditors Day event this year, let’s take a minute to validate the work auditors have done to study, deliver auditing, get themselves corrected when necessary and carry on with the proper intentions in their hearts–to get gains and abilities recovered for their pcs only, and for no other reason.
OK Brian, I owe yo a response for your sincerity.
1. “….. on Christ, instead of seeing Ron’s seeming hate and delusional bias towards him, you justified it with your generalizations and prejudice against Christianity.”
I don’t know what to say! This is a complete “straw man” that completely misrepresents what I posted!
Do you see any difference between what might have been Christ’s teachings, and the conduct of various supposedly “Christian” churches and individuals throughout centuries of Christian history? Do you think the CRusades, the Inquisition, burning Joan of Arc and others at the stake, or even so-called witches in New England, were “Christian” acts? These are but a tiny fraction of the atrocities committed by so-called “Christians” in history. Do you know that? Your imagination has created a “Valkov” who “hates Christianity”! I am not that person.
Ron may have thought, felt, and said some hateful things about “Christ” in some context. That’s Ron’s problem, not mine. But what Ron sid about the actual behavior of “Christians” throughout much of history is simple fact. If you don’t see it that way, OK, but maybe you should take a course in th e history of the Christian churches in Europe, and see if the actual behavior accorded with Christ’s teachings?
2. Ron and “electrocution”. I do stick up for a person’s “right to die”. I suggest you go work in hospice for awhile, or work with people who have considered suicide as a way out of their misery. You may consider it an “insane act”, and that’s all very well, but what I am not hearing from you is any understanding of or compassion for people who reach such an extreme state of existence. Do you feel any desire to help them? What I am hearing is judgement and disapproval, maybe condemnation. Whatever happened to “Judge not, that ye be not judged”?
Also, ECT is not the same thing as “electrocution”. Ron’s intention was apparently to end his life, that is not the intent of people who elect to receive ECT.
3. Do I think Ron was delusional at times? I think it is quite possible. Was he unbalanced in some ways? Undoubtedly. Do I have trouble seeing that? I don’t think so.
This is long enough. Until you are able to see Ron as a real person with good products as well as bad products, I think your view of him will be unbalanced. And as long as that is so, you will latch on to, “cherry pick”, statements others make about him and form erroneous pictures of what that person is saying, just as you made a mish-mash of what I posted about Ron, Christ, and Christianity and then reacted to your own mish-mash instead of to my actual thoughts on the subject. That is called “straw man”, criticizing me for things I did not say. I can only suggest you go read my original post.
Yeah, long strange trip indeed.
Speaking of the 1960s, I wonder how many of the people decrying scientology’s “illegal actions” like Snow White, were actually faced with being forcibly drafted into the US Army and being sent to Vietnam, where your life expectancy in a combat zone was about 5 – 10 minutes? Tom Martiniano’s book about Vietnam, “Teenage Wasteland”, describes it vividly.
So how come it was “illegal” to refuse induction into the Army, but it was not a crime to force people into the Army and then send them out to die by the thousands?
I found another way out, but one of my alternatives was to refuse induction, which many actually did. That was an automatic felony conviction with 2 years in jail, for refusing induction. NIce, having a felony conviction on your record, yeah? For not wanting to go out and kill or be killed.
There’s no doubt that Ron came across as “do as I say, not as I do”. But that’s everyman to some extent.
My other thought is, it’s a long way from 1952 to the late 1960s when he set up the Sea Org. A person’s thinking and feelings about things can change a lot over such a period of time, in response to his experiences in life. You know, people get married then get divorced, change jobs, Republicans switch to being Democrats, friends become enemies and vice-versa, whatever. Such is life.
It was only two and a half years from the PDC to the Manual on Dissemination of Material with its advocacy of deceptive selective presentation of Scientology to selective persons or public, its “always attack,” and its “ruin utterly.”
In the late 1960s, Hubbard, in a confidential HCOPL, instructed Scientologists to use “enemy tactics” on “enemies.” What Scientologists didn’t realize was that Hubbard was using “enemy tactics” on them also, and had been doing so, in various ways and to varying degrees, since 1950.
Throughout the 1950s and 1960s, Hubbard sometimes had described such tactics to Scientologists, but always as being done by someone else and never by himself. Any con(fidence) man would recognize that as a classic set up.
Scientologists knew that Hubbard would never do such things to them as he was the one who warned them about it.
IMO, Hubbard’s “hidden agenda” was always there.
In the 1960s, as the organization grew, it became necessary to teach some of his inner circle to use some of the ideas and methods that he had been using all along. Thus, the appearance of his (mostly) confidential writings on propaganda, “asserting and maintaining dominion over thoughts and loyalties,” and covert Intelligence, and covert attack.
The e-book mentioned earlier addresses much of this and more – and says it much more clearly than I’m expressing it here.
Yeah, no shit. Having had uncles and cousins and teachers who served in ‘Nam, the felony is certainly a viable choice. No one I know came out unscathed.
ROJO, thanks. There are hundreds of thousands of us who enjoyed giving and receiving auditing and our lives are much better for it. Sorry to harp on this again but it needs to be said. The time is right for auditors to organize, train and audit en-masse. The church isn’t going to get better any time soon and PR is at an all time low. Growth is a good thing, no matter what some say about such esoteric things as balance and illusions and false realities.
Get those failed purposes rekindled and DO. There are enough of us now to advance a conglomeration of organizations of ethical people who can and will help themselves and others. I have not been a leader in the past, but perhaps a leader is not what is needed now. That has not worked out to well lately. But maybe I’m taking on the hat of ‘Enthusiasm I/C.
The dream world fantasy of all the good things about Scn. without any of the bad, doesn’t have to be a dream. Just do the good things and not the bad. If you think it’s more complicated than that, then a few hours of honest training and skilled auditing can bring your enthusiasm back. Without making robots or moon bat cultists. As I said before, I don’t want to spend another lifetime walking behind a mule or as a slave, building monuments. That’s my reality, and many others as well. Let’s come up-tone and do it. I deserve it and so do you. Come on, it’ll be fun…. again.
Thanks, I getcha. Not ever being much of a “joiner”, I always shied away from those aspects of it. Some people were seeking that “belonging”, I wasn’t. Perhaps that saved me a lot of grief!
I do think LRH had simultaneously several goals or intentions going into it and developing it all. He made various decisions and from my point of view some of them were real turds. However neither have I walked in his shoes, and I don’t think I am driven by the same demons.
However the main distinction I see is the incompatibility between the core “tech” and philosophy that many people like, and his desire to create and establish something that had the power of the Vatican. He wanted Scientology organizations established and impregnable world-wide, which meant having a lot, A LOT, of money. And he wanted to do it QUICKLY. In a matter of a couple of decades. He apparently felt any means he used to accomplish this end were justified. In fact the CoS does resemble the Roman Catholic and other churches that have survived and expanded over long periods of time, not always by peaceful or what I would consider to be “ethical” means.
As I don’t know the details of what went through his mind and what he was actually seeing, I can only make some inferences that point to the kind of things I have mentioned. In any case, we can see what has resulted thus far. Possibly it could not have gone any other way under the circumstances. I don’t know. Based on Marty’s account in his Memoirs book, Miscavige’s chosen stance and course with regard to the lawsuits the Church was involved with seems to be stupidly stubborn in practical terms. It seems like Miscavige couldn’t think with whatever he learned at LRH’s knee and attempted to literally interpret what he thought of as “LRH policy”. Or maybe he was just out for himself as some think.
Hi Mr Enthusiasm I/C
I like it! “Get those failed purposes rekindled”. I work on the principle if it didn’t kill me it made me stronger,
and since we are still communicating is evidence our involvement with the Church of Scientology didn’t kill us, so in fact we must be stronger for the experience.
I am in Portsmouth, England, where in the world are you?
Pip – firstname.lastname@example.org
Windhorse; Thanks for that reference, I’ll look it up. I have recently discovered another source of harmful intentions that is not. to my knowledge, mentioned by Ron or handled directly in Scn. It is at the heart of Scn.s problems right now. Will send if you’d like.
MarkNR@hushmail.com Drop me a note.
Valkov……R6, we are talking about implants. Not the goodness or badness of Christ or Christianity. If R6 implants is the reason religion is crazy and you believe in Ron, then that faith can’t really be argued.
And if assisted suicide is the issue you hold on to with Ron wanting to electrocute himself, then we will never get to the real issue.
But we tried Valkov! A for effort 😉 have a great day or night were ever you are.
Brian, Christian beliefs may be just as much, if not more, a matter of belief than the “beliefs” of Scientology, which many have confirmed with personal recall. Take a look at this excerpt from Wikipedia regarding the somewhat newly discovered Gospel of Judas. It may give you a different perspective on LRH’s attempts to get assistance in bringing about his death:
“The Gospel of Judas is a Gnostic gospel whose content consists of conversations between the Apostle Judas Iscariot and Jesus Christ. It is believed to have been written by Gnostic followers of Jesus, rather than by Judas himself…
“In contrast to the canonical gospels which paint Judas as a betrayer of Christ who delivered him up to the authorities for crucifixion in exchange for money, the Gospel of Judas portrays Judas’s actions as done in obedience to instructions given by Christ. The document also suggests that Christ planned the course of events which led to his death. This portrayal seems to conform to a notion current in some forms of Gnosticism, that the human form is a spiritual prison, that Judas thus served Christ by helping to release Christ’s soul from its physical constraints…”
No Brian, we are not talking about implants. At least, I have not been. I have been responding to statements you have written and posted, and how they have ‘sounded’ to me, and I have posted my responses to those.
Thanks for clarifying, I guess, what you think “we” have been talking about. but that doesn’t do it for me. I don’t know enough about implants to discuss them beyond the general principles. To me, implants are basically post hypnotic suggestions having a great deal of command force and usually a forgetter attached, so they remain below the level of a person’s awareness.
Any belief, idea or action can be implanted in a person.
If you left the SEa Org in the 1970s, you must be about my age.
What led you to join the Sea Org, and what led you to leave it?
Just to muddy the water some, let me say the Gospel of Judas has been interpreted in a couple of different ways. Here is one criticism of the National Geographic’s version:
A good reference is Elaine Pagels co-authored book titled “Reading Judas”, her take on that gospel.
Recommended for a better understanding of what that Gospel signified in its original, 3rd century, context. In any case, it seems to be a serious criticism of “orthodox” Christianity, which was seriously persecuting Gnostic believers. It is based on a cosmology somewhat different from the orthodox Christian one and turns some of orthodox Christianity’s central ideas on their heads.
Brian, I fail to see where I “apologized” for any of LRH’s behavior.
Val, you are a gentleman and a scholar. Thanks for that info.
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Thanks for the ppost