What follows may shed light on why Jesus Christ is nullified in Scientology.

In The Gospel According To Jesus, Stephen Mitchell performs a rather competent analysis that shows Christ’s reported teachings for the most part were Middle Eastern iterations of what Lao Tzu and Siddhartha Gautama and other philosophers had communicated for four or five hundred years.   If there were distinctions to be made, they were based more upon emphasis than anything else.  His conclusion was that in essence what Jesus Christ most uniquely brought to the philosophical mix was the all-healing, all-powerful teaching of forgiveness.

Mitchell quoted from William Blake for support:

There is not one moral virtue that Jesus inculcated but Plato and Cicero did inculcate before him. What then did Christ inculcate?  Forgiveness of sins.  This alone is the gospel and this is the life and immortality brought to light by Jesus, even the covenant of Jehovah, which is this: if you forgive one another your trespasses, so shall Jehovah forgive you, that he himself may dwell among you.

By comparison, Scientology inculcates the following.

People attack Scientology; I never forget it, always even the score.

–          HCO Manual of Justice (1959)

On further living I found that only those who sought only peace were ever butchered.  The thousands of years of Jewish passivity earned them nothing but slaughter. 

–          Ethics, The Design Of (1969)

There was no Christ.*

–           Class VIII, lecture 10 (1968)

When I walked down the street and away from the church of Scientology for the last time, I had settled in my mind that I was going to forsake twenty-seven years of dedicated service in favor of experiencing the two most important human virtues.  Both of those virtues I found wanting – even prohibited –  in Scientology.  Forgiveness was one of them.

* the context of the quotation:

In R6 (a matrix implanted into every earth being’s mind 75 million years ago which dictates future behavior until ‘handled’ with Scientology) everybody is shown crucified. So is the psychiatrist shown crucified, although the psychiatrist is a dominant character and that’s how he gets away with what he gets away with. He electric shocks people. The medical doctor is not really represented in R6. It is only the surgeon. The surgeon is shown cutting bodies to pieces. That’s the right thing to do. Actually he shreds a body down to just raw meat down to a skeleton and the skeleton is in agony and then it too is chopped up. Anyway, every man is then shown to have been crucified, so don’t think that it’s an accident that this crucifixtion…they found out that this applied. Somebody, somewhere on this planet, back about six hundred BC, found some piece of R6. And I don’t know how they found it either by watching mad men or something but since that time they have used it and it became what is known as Christianity. The man on the cross – there was no Christ – but the man on the cross is shown as every man so of course each person seeing a crucified man has an immediate feeling of sympathy for this man.

290 responses to “Forgiveness

  1. Forgiving and laying down to be stomped on are two different actions.

    Sent from my iPhone


  2. Was the other wanting virtue unconditional love?

  3. Bravo Marty!… it is impossible to expand and evolve if one cannot move up and out…Forgiveness does that.

    “Forgiveness doesn’t excuse their behavior…Forgiveness prevents their behavior from destroying you”


  4. “Both of those virtues I found wanting – even prohibited – in Scientology. Forgiveness was one of them.”

    Even the essay on Greatness puts a dim light on forgiveness. However
    it used to be well and alive in the tech. As a fairly novice auditor and from the E/O hat I was asked to read it drill it and fly quad ruds, and end by giving forgiveness. It was one of my best memories as an auditor. At the end she was smiling through her tears when I reassured her that she was forgiven. Of course I meant it.

  5. I think forgiveness requires regret.

  6. Scientology does forgive, on occasion, as with the finality of the Joburg. However, this ‘forgiveness’ has formal and structured relations to very specific requirements.

    “I will forgive you only if you …. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. open wallet 6. 7. success story”

    I am very skeptical of most metaphysics these days. Brain science is quietly dispelling and answering many questions that once belonged in the realm of theology and philosophy.

    But true forgiveness really makes you stop and think about this. Can a pre-frontal cortex, with it billions of neurons firing, actually be the agent responsible for this? It’s a very hard case to make and I think a post like this reminds me of my faith that a) God exists b) human beings are fundamentally flawed and c) forgiveness can bring us closer to both God and each other.

    Taking a step back and reading those lines from LRH, it really makes you aware of how disturbed he was, on how fundamentally broken he was as a human being and how those lines have robbed so many Scientologists of the humanity they were simultaneously fleeing from in their life yet at the exact time trying to find in the auditing room.

    Beautiful post.

  7. So the concept of anti Christ is not to far fetched. Attack is in deed anti Christ.

    Ron’s majority opinion of Christ, not the minimal scattered appreciation of Christ, reveals a possible why as to his repulsion of the Christ ideal.

    Any opinions or views?

  8. As a Christian, I completely understand what you are saying here. Forgiveness IS the cornerstone of Christianity as Jesus Christ died on the cross to allow us forgiveness for our sins and gain entrance in to Heaven.

    I know..I know…being a Christian is a minority in this community, but it’s what I truly believe and it is a belief that makes me feel good about myself and others.

    Also “Matthew 6:14-15: 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

    15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”

    Point being, forgiveness goes both ways.

    You said you wanted to experience two human virtues, forgiveness was one of them. Was love the other? I have never gotten the impression that love was very important in all of the Scientology materials I’ve looked at. Granted, I haven’t seen it all.

  9. Forgiveness recognizes the essential nature of the soul minus all the craziness that it has assumed and acted upon.

  10. I would venture a response to your last paragraph, although there are likely others in a far better position to do so.

    I haven’t read all the materials either, but I have not found much talk of love in them. However, in my experience love has grown out of the help given to others, both on management lines and tech lines (spiritual counselling). So while love was not preserved in scripture, the application of scripture with the intention to provide unconditional help would have brought love about. Instead, it was used to control and brought about pain and hatred.

    Those are my thoughts on that particular matter, anyway.

  11. Sage words. I’ve found it hard to practice this in life I must admit. Doesn’t forgiveness act as a therapeutic act when the other acknowledges wrongdoing in the first place though? In prisons you find plenty of folk who simply can’t or won’t acknowledge any wrongdoing – so forgiving them might make you feel virtuous, but I wonder if it has any therapeutic value? Maybe it does. Maybe this post is about self evolvement, not helping others. I’m sure the Buddhist community could shed some light here!

    On a lighter note, I recall being told I would be “forgiven” for doping off on security watch AFTER I’d done a full RPF!

  12. It’s amazing how Ron found the 4 flows, and As-Isness, and everything else. Through auditing, we repeatedly forgive and understand ourselves and others. But outside the auditing room, rules change.

    While playing the Admin tech “piano,” there was always something that didn’t quite sound right. This is very much that thing. Forgiveness was something that was unspoken, and had to be learned for one’s self. And it was easy to see the FEBC’s who got it and those who did not. The difference was night and day. Spotting an “omitted” something can be difficult sometimes… because you don’t know to look for something that isn’t there to begin with.

    Forgiveness is a virtue I’m still working on.

  13. The Book of The Law

  14. Allways get even (and than some) is a rule in Satanism. Don’t think of a guy with a pitchfork. It is actually more down to earth than that.

  15. There are a lot dichotomy’s in the Scn world i.e., What is Greatness is about forgiveness and Grade II and LRH use to issue Amnesty’s regularly forgiving. Now there is all this wild shit going on with DM at the helm and so many good people who have been declared and/or exited altogether. Someone needs to get their shit together over there and start acting like human beings with some semblance of love and compassion. We had dinner last night with an extremely successful businessman who said he told the girl who was disseminating to him that with all he’s read and the conflicts going on therein, he will not get involved until they settle all that. He said that it was barbaric, he asked how to they respond to all these accusations being made and I said they keep saying it’s all lies.

  16. I’ve heard it said that love and empathy are the key to healing humans — and being human.

    Long ago, in my own green days at a mission, I think I got the best “case gain” that would ever be condensed into 30 seconds for me. An OT whom I admired greatly and I were talking in his office. I was troubled by something and shared it. He understood, and essentially forgave me. He simply looked at me, both of us with full TR-0 so that we were in a pellucid shared space, and just said, “You are a beautiful thetan.” In that instant, I was once and forever liberated from the particular concern I had brought to him.

    In the end, what may most make us blossom from potential to reality may just be love and empathy. Perhaps that is at the core of what Christ knew. It is definitely something that Hubbard did not know.

  17. Yes, I noticed the forgiveness statement made by the auditor was very moving and beneficial for the PC…. However. after the session, the PC’s ethics folder was used against him mercilessly, with no forgiveness in sight.

    Even X staff that paid off their freeloader bill (usually a huge amends project) and came back to get services at the Org, were made to do lower conditions. No forgiveness there. Any thought of forgiveness in Scientology Organizations is replaced with condemnation…

    This atmosphere has created Koolaide drinking robots that avoid doing any harm to their bosses, for fear of condemnation, but they will commit the most ugly and inhumane acts against juniors and parishioners just to remain in good standing with their bosses.

  18. There is something I have not undestood about forgiveness – it is that it presumes there is something in need of forgiving.

  19. I can say from experience that forgiveness is a very empowering attitude. In Scientology terms, it puts you at cause in situations where you would otherwise be effect. And contrary to an earlier comment on this thread, it definitely does not require regret. It does however require some compassion.

    Forgiveness is the most obvious difference between Catholic confession and Scientology sec checking, and IMHO it may be the primary reason why Catholicism is the largest denomination in the western world while Scientology is on the brink of disappearing.

  20. This virtue of forgiveness was well employed by Gandhi and Martin Luther King, amongst others, and is something to strive for.
    Revenge or get even lacks purpose and it does not qualify as a virtue.
    I do agree with you.

  21. @ Rod: Your comment on brain science made me think of a TED talk I listened to recently.

    The Scientology view of memory is that it is (or will be with auditing) a precise record of truth — exact time, place, form, and event.

    Aside from the fact that physics has shown us that there is no such thing as absolute time in this universe, studies of consciousness and memory show that there is no such thing as absolute memory. It is a construct. This fact has been demonstrated amply by double blind experiment.

    Think of what that means in a gnostic belief system, like Scientology, where “you know what you know” and “what is real for you is real for you.”

    In the Scientology view, if two data conflict, one or both are wrong. That misses a logical possibility: it turns out both could be right.

    In reality, we are all continually constructing and reconstructing our memories, our “autobiographical self,” our deeds and misdeeds, and so forth. There is nothing wrong with this as long as we always adhere to truth. In other words, a psychopath (to take an extreme) may construct a totally false persona and display it — making a false story more false, whereas a relatively sane person might simply develop his or her “story” with added insights and clarification over time — a true story becomes truer.

    But in the end, even a relatively sane person will have memories that are fiction, because, as one researcher claimed, the brain abhors a vacuum. The brain can and does fill in the blanks even with something as plain as vision. There is something called inattentional blindness where people can fail to see the most obvious and weird thing right in front of them. The brain can reach wrong conclusions right and left — setting aside the Scientology trinity-like distinction of brain (physical switchboard), mind (mental image pictures, etc.), and thetan (spirit, soul, one’s self) that goes just a step past classical dualism.

    So. You are the auditor. You are in session. You are running a Dianetics process. The tone arm is going up on the e-meter as you keep re-centering the needle. You ask the preclear (PC) “Is there an earlier similar incident.” The PC has eyes closed. A long minute goes by. Suddenly you see the needle fall. You recenter the needle, bringing the tone arm down. The needle falls again, a lot. You jot down LFBD — Long Fall Blow Down on your worksheets and note the time. For another second the PC still has eyes closed but then abruptly opens them, laughing and cheerful. The PC says, “I just realized that there was one time when I was about one when (XYZ) happened. Now I know why I get sick to my stomach around (ABC)!” You glance at the e-meter. The needle is doing a loose float back and forth across the meter dial. You look at the PC, who is all VGIs — Very Good Indicators. You note the combination on your worksheets — cognition, F/N (Floating Needle), VGIs. You say to the PC, “Thank you. Your needle is floating.”

    Okay, so (in my experience) that’s a fairly typical session for a Dianetic process, except that the PC would often find an earlier similar incident in a “past life.”

    Now here’s the question: Is it enough that this process “works” — that it gets a positive result, without corroborating the objective reality of the “memory,” knowing how capable the mind is of generating memories? Is that really enough — to make the good feeling the proof at the possible expense of a more challenging search for truth or building case gain on what may turn out to be false memories?

    I personally think auditing may bring up a mix. Some memories may indeed be fairly accurate. And some may be constructed by the mind in trying to fill the vacuum created by a lack of memory when someone asks “Is there an earlier similar incident?”

    I myself (in the PC role) once long ago had mental image pictures of the pyramids come into my mind when asked for an earlier incident on some chain. I described to the auditor what I saw. I remember saying that the pyramids must be off in my mental picture, because the faces were perfectly smooth, white, and shining like mirrors in the sun. I believe I even conjectured that maybe these pyramids I was seeing were on another planet or something. Well, decades later I happened to learn that that was what archaeologists thought the pyramids _did_ once look like — covered in smooth, polished white limestone (that was subsequently taken to build much of Cairo).

    So did I find a valid past life memory? That’s one possible explanation. Another might be that despite not remembering it, I had indeed heard or seen this fact somewhere before. Another possibility might be along holistic universe lines — all parts can contain the whole and thus past reality can be drawn from the present. Scientologists would choose the first interpretation. A materialistic person or skeptic (in the positive sense) might lean toward the second. A Jungian or a Gaia enthusiast might lean toward the third.

    But, if there is _one_ most likely explanation of any given matter, how do we determine it? Is it really enough for someone seeking spiritual liberation to say “what’s true for me is true for me” when so much of what is “true” for me is blurred with various fictions and fallacies?

    This is why I continue to hold that Scientology should best be subjected to rigorous research, double-blind studies, and so on. If it is what it claims, it will stand up to the test. If it does not stand up to rigorous scrutiny, we all need to get our TRs in and face that.

    If it does turn out that parts of Scientology are wrong, are we strong enough to forgive Hubbard — and to forgive ourselves for lost time and years? To the latter, I would say, what is to forgive? The beauty of a dedicated search for truth is nothing that needs forgiveness. But holding onto beliefs that claim truth without demanding rigorous investigation would require forgiveness, in my opinion.

  22. One direction moves towards Oneness, Unity, Decency and Fairness.

    The other towards the glorification of a delusional form of individualism. An individualism based upon control and acquisition of material and spiritual power. A philosophy that seeks the destruction of anyone or anything that stands in the way of that acquisition.

    Scientology will be studied for many years to come. But not necessarily for it’s philosophical virtues, though that will also take place.

  23. PS Here’s the link to the TED talk that got me going in the first place:

  24. one of those who see

    Just ready this on Tony’s blog: “Comal County Judge Dib Waldrip has denied the Church of Scientology’s motion to disqualify Ray Jeffrey, Marc Wiegand, and Elliott Cappuccio, the legal team representing Monique Rathbun in her harassment lawsuit against the church and its leader, David Miscavige.” Fantastic news!!

  25. No, you’re mistaking forgiveness for sorrow. If you say sorry, and truly mean it, then by implication you regret your actions. You may fully understand why you did the thing that you now regret, but nonetheless with the new view of the world you now hold, you regret your past action. There is NOTHING wrong with saying sorry, and NOTHING wrong with regret. If you never say sorry, or never feel regret, then either you have a hard heart, or you are perfect and never make mistakes.

    You of course can’t let regret stop you from getting on with your life, but you can use your regret to ensure you don’t make the same mistake again, and maybe even put right the mistake you made.

    This is how I live my life. I say sorry when I make a mistake. I’m a human being, so I make a lot of mistakes. Sometimes I say it quickly, sometimes it takes a while.

    Forgiveness requires no regret. It doesn’t even require anyone else but you to participate. Forgiveness is really tough, much tougher than sorrow or regret in my personal experience. But Jesus, whoever he was, was absolutely spot on. I guess bitterness is the opposite of forgiveness. I don’t like bitterness. It sometimes feels good for a time, while you feel nice and sorry for yourself, but over time it corrodes and really only hurts you.

    Marty I am absolutely loving your posts at the moment. I don’t know what you’re drinking, but I’ll have some too please. Please keep going.

    Congrats on the judgement from Waldrip today by the way. I hope Sugar Ray finds it in his heart to one day forgive those sorry excuses for lawyers who tried to sully his reputation. And I hope they damn well feel sorry.

  26. Off subject, but good news from the Bunker:

    RAY JEFFREY 1, SCIENTOLOGY 0: Disqualify Motion Denied in Harassment Lawsuit

  27. I guess the issue I’m grappling with here is, when you presume a wrongdoing (she hit me!) that requires forgiving, in Scientology you are immediately squardancing around the issue of “accusation = you have an overt = you have an evil purpose” and so to avoid suddenly finding yourself on the rack or the pillory, you prefer to simply pretend all is well and overlook any perceived wrongdoing against yourself.

    And in fact, perhaps this is one of the reasons one then resorts to underhanded labels like 1.1, 1.5, downstat, DB, etc. Anyone help me out of this conundrum?

  28. Thanks

    Sent from my iPad


  29. I think it is strange if this making the flow of overts even, doesn’t remind anyone of overt-motivator/DED-DEDEX sequence. If one keeps what another did to him ‘in mind’, and he then harms him back (not just to stop him, but actually harm him), isn’t it an overt then? And isn’t that fighting (not-is) as opposed to confronting (as-is) that we were supposed to do with Scientology?

    About Jesus: I haven’t read the book ‘The Gospel According To Jesus’. The few quotes you put here, depict him as a nice person.

    Christianity though, said much more than just forgiveness. It also said about the almight and all-loving God who may condemn you to suffer forever in hell, if you break 1 of his 10 commandments. And if my father is such an avengeful dude, why shouldn’t I be one too?

  30. So is this all academic, or does anybody feel the need to be forgiven?

  31. With respect to forgiveness, there was apparently a technical reason for why it was only done after a Confessional, at which time the “Proclamation of Forgiveness” was given. I think the following gives the underlying theory:

    “The main trouble with facsimiles is that they ‘hang up’ in time, then become timeless and then give the concept of ‘no change’. Our preclear, desiring to change for the better, cannot change because he is ‘hung up’ in a memory which he ‘can’t’ change. The auditor wants change. Timelessness or foreverness prevents change and these unwelcome conditions come about when a facsimile ‘hangs up’ in present time. This makes the preclear feel he is unable to change. No matter what you do for him, if you do not get him ‘into present time’ or (the same thing) get the facsimiles out of present time, you have ‘no change’.” (Scientology 8-80)

  32. Forgiveness goes hand in hand with the philosophy of “hate the sin, not the sinner”. And if one truly believes that man is basically good, but can act badly, this all lines up quite nicely. But its easier said than done, and so often is but a glib utterance which provides no relief. If one understands what makes people act the way they do, one can forgive. A wise person realizes that holding any grudge only ties up ones own ability to move on and move up. Someone on this blog(apologies for not recalling who) used as an example that hating or holding a grudge is like drinking poison and expecting it to kill the other person. The philosophy and teachings of Jesus, anchored in humility, understandably have been marginalized in scientology. Scientology, or any spiritual practice, has value if it allows its practitioner to arrive at a place where they can forgive, really forgive, and understand why they should and must. If it does not do that, its ultimate value is little. Forgiveness is given through strength. From a centered beingness and deep understanding that most here seek. The weak and afraid are the ones who struggle or reject forgiveness. I am not saying it is always easy. It is not. But if you can truly forgive, your past the 50 and heading for the goal line, IMHO. Thank you Marty for understanding and presenting what is really important.

  33. I think that in the time when LRH grew up there was no place for spiritual developement in christian churches. He also saw some other cultures in his earlier years and I think he was thirsty for knowledge and methods. He was a non-conformist. I don’t think he liked to go to the church. Different times back then.
    The Catholic Church is no friend of sprititual progress up to this day. I know, because I have catholic roots.

    All I want to say is that our understanding of Christhood and the Christ ideal is very different from the one from the time LRH grew up.
    Today we have a diversity of spiritual thought and thanks to the internet we can connect with different people and viewpoints around the globe.

    It is also interesting to point out that LRH initiated Dianetics and Scientology before the “spiritual explosion” (New Age et al).

    There is lots of beneficial stuff in the technology. Scientology is not perfect. LRH knew it. He also knew he wasn’t perfect himself. But he also knew he developed something of value.

  34. I’m so glad I abstained from getting involved in the scientology organizational culture! I am still sitting here with “Man is basically good”, which to me seemed like one of the most forgiving things I had ever heard. A big contrast to the general Protestant view that “Man is basically bad”(sinful). It is sad to hear how far the CoS has strayed, first led astray by it’s own founder, and now by DM.

  35. For me, I don’t know if Mike or Marty were punished for my protests in Clearwater, or my small part in helping the LMT. If they were, I feel bad about that. But I don’t regret doing it, and I don’t feel the need for forgiveness.

  36. Great post. Empathy and love, forgiveness and hope are all interconnected, and a foundation of most religions, with the notable exception of Scientology.
    We have an endless capacity for all of these.

    I wanted to extend my best wishes to you and to Monique and to your fine legal team on the very good news coming from Texas today. May you see a continued stream of good luck coming your way.

  37. Forgiveness is the cornerstone of auditing, and thus the cornerstone of Scientology, the subject. It was always baffling to me that certain organizational policies and approaches by Ron which helped create the culture that is so negative in the church of Scientology, often didn’t parallel the underlying subject.

    But using Jesus as a template for forgiveness is also not as straight-forward as it might seem. Take for example these two passages from the Bible:

    “When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to
    Jerusalem. In the Temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep
    and doves and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made
    a whip out of cords and drove all from the Temple, both sheep and
    cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned
    their tables. To those who sold doves he said: ‘Get out of here.’”

    – [John 2:13-16]

    “Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s foes will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”
    – [Matthew 10:34-38]

    I was raised largely in a Christian church and family, and these passages were sort of explained as “righteous anger” — and the notion that Jesus didn’t come across as all that forgiving was glossed over. To this day, it still doesn’t make much sense — unless one simply sees Jesus as human (as I now do), and thus subject to the occasional lapse that all of us experience.

    I also can’t easily explain the reversal of approach in certain policies by Ron. Maybe he was just trying to be “pragmatic”. Or maybe he thought “fighting fire with fire” would eventually win the day. By his own admission, he was certainly not perfect.

    I do know, that like one of the core messages of Jesus’ philosophy, a core message of Ron’s philosophy was to forgive. And despite certain statements/actions to the contrary by both men, the subject of Scientology (and indeed Christianity) would not be of much value without forgiveness sitting at their core.

  38. Bozz — just to clarify something …

    You said “…Ron found the 4 flows, and As-Isness, and everything else.” — I think the point of your comment was LRH had wonderful things he founded but outside the auditing room it didn’t matter.

    Buddha taught about As-Isness, IsNess, and Not IsNess approximately 2538 years before LRH published DMSMH. It’s part of buddhism known in Tibetan Buddhism as the Abhidarma or in Theravadan (Pali Canon) as Abhidamma.

    I point this out just so that as you are sorting through scientology for yourself, you also learn that LRH didn’t “discover” As Is Ness, Is Ness or Not Is Ness.

    He *might* have coined alter-is-ness as I’ve not seen those words in Buddhism.


  39. Mechanically, to me anyway, it means to stop ridging and let go.

  40. “By comparison, Scientology inculcates the following.

    People attack Scientology; I never forget it, always even the score.

    – HCO Manual of Justice (1959)

    On further living I found that only those who sought only peace were ever butchered. The thousands of years of Jewish passivity earned them nothing but slaughter.

    – Ethics, The Design Of (1969)

    There was no Christ.”

    Well, there you have it. All this was written by L. Ron Hubbard and no one else. His writings are scripture and he is ultimately responsible for everything negative that happened to anyone involved with the group. The group enforced this mentality and is why they are in the mess they are in today. And Hubbard is the source of this mess.

  41. Marty,

    I agree 100%. If one even basically studies Taoism, Buddhism, Vedanta-Hinduism or Christianity you will see a major flaw in Scientology. I actually see it as part of the major and flawed “construct” of Scientology…the “construct” that only LRH has made it.

    All of the Eastern religions professed the same idea of forgiveness, but even more importantly, they argued for and professed the ideas that as soon as one creates a “separateness” from self and others, problems arise. When one views life as Tao, Brahmin, the love of God, Supreme Consciousness, or total theta, one can practice compassion and forgiveness.

    Unfortuntately, and despite any good points in the tech, the Church and even LRH practiced a clear separateness in life…a condition of us vs them. I still believe this is from a basic condition of egomania and ser facs, but that is not the point. Once one puts out that “they” are the problem, YOU have a problem. Once you put out that YOU are the only solution as everyone else is wrong, YOU have a problem. Whether it was the psychs, the news media, medical doctors, politicians, apostates, or that “only LRH made it”…I mean, the number of “others” to LRH and the Church, or “only we are smart as all others are wrong”, is literally everywhere in the Church. (I use that word “everywhere” loosely amongst Scientologists.)

    As such, the whole “religion” was doomed. It is sad really. But even with all of that said, it is nice to get to a point where I can see that Scientology was simply part of my path towards enlightenment, with good points and not-so good points, but it was all part of the learning process. We keep moving forward.

  42. I think that LRH wrote the most he ever wrote on the subject of forgiveness in “What is Greatness?”:

    The hardest task one can have is to continue to love his fellows despite all reasons he should not.

    And the true sign of sanity and greatness is to so continue.

    For the one who can achieve this, there is abundant hope.

    For those who cannot, there is only sorrow, hatred and despair. And these are not the things of which greatness—or sanity or happiness are made.

    A primary trap is to succumb to invitations to hate.

    There are those who appoint one their executioners. Sometimes, for the sake of safety of others, it is necessary to act. But it is not necessary to also hate them.

    To do one’s task without becoming furious at others who seek to prevent one is a mark of greatness—and sanity. And only then can one be happy.

    Seeking to achieve any single desirable quality in life is a noble thing. The one most difficult—and most necessary—to achieve is to love one’s fellows despite all invitations to do otherwise.

    If there is any saintly quality, it is not to forgive. “Forgiveness” accepts the badness of the act. There is no reason to accept it. Further, one has to label the act as bad to forgive it. “Forgiveness” is a much lower-level action and is rather censorious.

    True greatness merely refuses to change in the face of bad actions against one—and a truly great person loves his fellows because he understands them….

    This is the most you get on the subject of forgiveness as a Scientologist. It is basically a pitch to become trained as an auditor. The rest of the article talks about how insane people are, and how trapped they are. It says that you have to have “total wisdom” in order to have “true greatness”.

    And true greatness, as above, has nothing to do with forgiveness, per LRH.

    When I first read “What is Greatness”, early in my Scientology career, I thought this was an example of some of the great civilizing teachings that I would be getting in order to become a better, more loving guy as I went up the Bridge to Total Freedom in Scientology.

    What I did not know at the time, was that this was basically IT in the civilized teachings department in Scientology.

    This was ALL THERE WAS.

    There is much more Scn “tech” about finding people’s crimes, giving people “too gruesomes” and how to gain the respect or “ethics presence” from your juniors and others by screaming at them.

    But you don’t know that when you are first starting out. You assume that Scientology teachings will be BETTER than Christian teachings.

    Scientology was supposed to be BETTER than other religions, remember?

    Turns out it wasn’t. No matter what the Scn PR brochures like “What is Greatness?” said.

    The civilizing teachings in almost every other religion on the planet are far more civilized than the teachings in Scientology. They are far more civilized, and far more effective at living a happy life for yourself and everyone around you.

    SCIENTOLOGY: Not what the brochures say it is.


  43. Another thing forgiveness seems to require, at least in my understanding, is that you actually feel it. But what if you are just numb inside and say empty words? When is forgiveness real?

  44. Jesus Christ is “nullified” in Scientology because L. Ron Hubbard viewed himself as the Anti-Christ. The Beast. The One who came after. Like everything else in Scientology, it institutionalized Hubbard’s insanity, paranoia, fears and hatreds.

  45. Gayle aka TroubleShooter

    “When I walked down the street and away from the church of Scientology for the last time, I had settled in my mind that I was going to forsake twenty-seven years of dedicated service in favor of experiencing the two most important human virtues. Both of those virtues I found wanting – even prohibited – in Scientology. Forgiveness was one of them.”

    Yes, I understand.

    The denial of Jesus Christ while lying; claiming to be “an all-denominational religion” was a burden for me that lifted when I took my walk away. My interest in him is one of the motivations that caused me to joyfully sing along to the entire Jesus Christ Superstar sound track – much to the delight of my audience which was all of my two young boys at the time who then too began to sing along with me and wearing out two sets of cassettes and now on CD. lol

    It’s a good day now, thank you for your other comments. To say I appreciate it is too conservative – it was welcomed and warmly received. I send the same to you and Mosey.


  46. gretchen dewire

    If we are not capable of forgiveness, we develope strong resentments. These resentments are poison to the soul.They make one hard and inflexable and it is impossible to move forward. I believe you must forgive for your own spiritual developement, not necessarily for the person you have harmed. The hardest one I have found to forgive is myself.Working on it. In my 12 step program we are told to pray for the person we have a resentment against for at least 2 weeks.In the past, I have found this practice to work fairly well. My perspective definitely changes. Does this mean Monique should not sue David Miscaviage or that I should not try to get my money back from the IAS, I dont think so. I did, however pray for David Miscaviage in my morning meditation and prayer session.

  47. I agree that contradicting datums do not mean one or both are false, but could mean both are true in certain circumstances. This is often found in the world of health and nutrition, which is full of contradictions. Low-this vs. high-that. The truth is that bodies are different and what works for one may not work for another. No nutrition philosophy has 100% success, but they rarely tell you about that percentage it doesn’t work for.

  48. Mark,
    The actual full context and quote from the VIII tape is that there is no Christ IN THE R6 IMPLANT, but that the person crucified is “everyman”. Just as in the paragraph preceding this one in the tape, there are neither are medical doctors represented in the R6 implants.

    LRH isn’t denying Jesus Christ in this quote.

    Here is the actual material:
    “Anyway, every man is then shown to have been crucified.”

    “The man on the cross, there was no Christ, but the man on the cross is shown as every man.

    “So of course each person seeing a crucified man has an immediate feeling of sympathy for this man.

    “Therefore you get many PCs who say they are Christ. Now there are two reasons for that. One is the Roman Empire was prone to crucify people. So a person can have been crucified. But in R6 he is shown as crucified.”

    I also certainly haven’t ever been prohibited the power of forgiving as a Scientologist.

    I hope you do find peace and let all this go, and move on.

  49. Thanks for the context, Jim.

  50. martyrathbun09

    Right. Go a bit broader and realize that the entirety of Christianity is the restimulation of an electronically induced implantation (R6) on all earth beings:
    In R6 everybody is shown crucified. So is the psychiatrist shown crucified, although the psychiatrist is a dominant character and that’s how he gets away with what he gets away with. He electric shocks people. The medical doctor is not really represented in R6. It is only the surgeon. The surgeon is shown cutting bodies to pieces. That’s the right thing to do. Actually he shreds a body down to just raw meat down to a skeleton and the skeleton is in agony and then it too is chopped up. Anyway, every man is then shown to have been crucified, so don’t think that it’s an accident that this crucifixtion…they found out that this applied. Somebody, somewhere on this planet, back about six hundred BC, found some piece of R6. And I don’t know how they found it either by watching mad men or something but since that time they have used it and it became what is known as Christianity. The man on the cross – there was no Christ – but the man on the cross is shown as every man so of course each person seeing a crucified man has an immediate feeling of sympathy for this man. I was already quite aware that you wished me to move on; just like the fella in charge of Scientology who has his minions compare him to Dalai Lama, The Archbishop of Canterbury, and the Pope. Amen.

  51. Thanks Jim. I was just going to ask about the context for that statement “There was no Christ”. LRH says the opposite in the PDC’s:

    “Here on Earth there was undoubtedly a Christ. Well, one of the reasons he…would go forward so hard is he had a good assist back of him in terms of an implant.” (PDC lecture 24, “What’s Wrong with This Universe: A Working Package for the Auditor” 9 Dec 52)

    Also, I think the above aligns with what LRH said about Alexander the Great in DMSMH – where he validates Alexander’s basic purpose and his being “a person of great ability and personal prowess”:

    “The manic, as will be later covered, is a ‘pro-survival,’ ‘assist’ command in an engram which yet fixes the individual on some certain course. But an engram is capable only of as much ‘power’ as is present in the host, just as it is capable of tying up only as much analyzer as is present…

    “Let us take a forceful manic who is displaying and functioning on 500 arbitrary units of life force. Let us assume that the entire being is possessed of 1000 arbitrary units of life force. Suppose we have here an Alexander. The dynamics of the average person are unassisted by manics in most cases but are dispersed as a stream of electrons might be dispersed by a block before them. Here are scattered activity, scattered thoughts, uncomputable problems, lack of alignment. In such a person, with 1000 units present, 950 of those units could be so captured in the engram banks and yet so thoroughly counteractive that the person displays a functioning capacity of only 50 units. In the case of Alexander, it could be assumed, the manic must have been an alignment in a general direction of his own basic purposes. His basic purpose is a strong regulator: the manic happens to align with it: a person of great ability and personal prowess becomes possessed of 500 units via a manic engram, believes he is a god and goes out and conquers the known world…” (DMSMH)

  52. I beg to differ. I have found that forgiveness is a key piece of O/W theory. And I believe forgiveness was intended in the “justice” tech, but rarely practiced. Ron forgave people even after he chucked them overboard. He put in the “the door is always open a crack” doctrine. It’s not Scientology to disconnect the way DM and the ‘droids do.

    I think 27 years of dealing with the madness of the Sea Org and the CMO and David Miscavige (who does not forgive) certainly could make you come to that conclusion, but that is not my experience with Scientology.

    Now, if you call what is going on with the church today “Scientology,” well, I agree with you. But, if we say that what is going on in the church today is Scientology, then any good that Scientology ever had will be lost.

  53. Madora Pennington

    They certainly do honor their “religious” tenet of revenge.

  54. Jim Logan –

    A very good way of “finding peace”, and of “moving on”, is by writing up the horridly abusive ethics, tech, and policies in Scientology, as well as its idiotic contradictions so that others may not make the same mistakes, and fall into the same traps, as you did.

    This is called taking responsibility for the abuses in Scientology by making sure that no one else can be harmed by them.

    If you constantly justify the abuse in Scientology, and cover over the lies and contradictions, then this brings about continued harm from Scientology to yourself and to others.

    Jim, I hope that you finally confront the abuse and insanity built into Scientology by L Ron Hubbard. I have found that after a certain point in Scientology, there is only slavery and madness in it.

    So, just as you try to get Marty to shut up and “move on” so that he “finds peace”, one could also offer you spiritual advice on how to find peace for yourself – by getting the hell away from Scientology!

    But I won’t.

    Just as Marty has every right to speak his own mind on his own blog, and to help others as he sees fit, you have every right to practice your own religion according to your own lights.

    So let each of us “move on” and “find peace” our own way, and as we each see fit.

    Ever Yours in Spiritual Wisdom & Advice, Jim.


  55. Mark,
    Again, it is not Christ in the R6 implant, mate. In fact, what LRH is stating clearly is that some mistake the picture of a man (every man) crucified in their Bank, with Jesus Christ’s crucifixion and A=A themselves due to this picture as Jesus.

    It wasn’t a denial of Christ, which is what you posted in the opening and is the premise for your piece. Also, that you were “prohibited” forgiving in your Scientology experience. While I can’t say you were or weren’t, I can say I’ve never been prohibited any such thing, and in fact have been routinely encouraged by the materials to do just that. (Grade II being once such instance where hostilities were relieved and forgiveness a mainstay of the processes.)

    I have returned to study the faith my family was raised in, Christianity, and spent the time to learn what it was I was supposed to have been learning all those days in Sunday School and as an Altar Boy and at Mass while I grew up. Forgiveness, the power to be able to let go the motivators on the Dynamics, was the essential lesson I gained by going back. I embrace this as a Scientologist today.

    I learn it again, and it gets easier each time. I sincerely wish you peace.

  56. spyrosillusionist

    It seems that views about what LRH said, and what SCN is about, can vary and be as contrasted as black and white.

    Nonetheless, it’s good to know that hate, sheep-like obedience, and fighting bad guys and stuff, aren’t going to set anyone free. I take the duplication of the idiocies that the COS has indocrinated as a ‘healing’ process.

  57. Marty, if you look into the history of Christianity and its later adaptation by the Roman Empire (beginning with the blessings of Constantin), you will see that Christianity didn’t use the cross to represent itself in the beginnings.

    If you than look at the dramatisation in the Catholic Church, they pray to a Christ on a cross (this makes it very hard to try to live by his example, you know how it may end). They celebrate “way of the cross”, the passion of Christ more than his ressurection (Christ’s final proof of eternal life and that his mission was fulfilled).

    Don’t get me wrong, I am a strong believer in Christhood. But what we know today, at least the mainstream Christianity, is just a shadow of His mission.

  58. Alan,
    In accord with your comment, clarification of the actual LRH quote in this instance surely would go a long way to gaining the truth of the matters. Ron Hubbard did not deny Christ in the VIII lecture.

  59. I support your post with a quote:
    “No teacher can be held responsible for a caricature of his teachings.” – Mahatma Gandhi

  60. One always can pick quotes and text fragments to make nothing out of something.
    That’s the oldest trick in the book.

    I forgive Hubbard. He had one chance, he used it and he did what he did because he believed in what he did.

    “Objects in the rear view mirror may appear closer than they are.”

  61. “The man on the cross – there was no Christ – but the man on the cross is shown as every man so of course each person seeing a crucified man has an immediate feeling of sympathy for this man.”

    It seems clear from the context now that by “there was no Christ” LRH meant no Christ IN the implant. Plus, according to the PDC reference I quoted, LRH had no disagreement about there having been a Christ. And putting that together with the other reference (on manic engrams), he apparently believed that Christ had a good basic purpose and was able enough as a being to put it into effect, and did so in a big way.

  62. I think it’s really hard to forgive somebody who doesn’t regret what they did.

  63. deElizabethan

    The hardest person to forgive is yourself, yet is most important.

  64. “I forgive Hubbard.”

    That’s an excellent point for those who have a problem with Hubbard’s (supposedly) not recognizing and affirming the validity of forgiveness.

  65. Thanks Marty. I forgive others, not so much for them, but for me. It helps to break the chains of resentment and hatred that only serve to hold me down.

  66. Hey Jim!

    I don’t think at this point for a lot of people it is about letting go yet. That will take place for each on their own time.

    I think people are processing the inconsistencies, the promises of certain states payed for and not attained and deep betrayals.

    Traumas have their life cycle. Some of the words of Ron, and actions implemented by Ron, are the root cause of these traumas for a large group of people.

    People are sifting through and re evaluating doctrines that were once considered essential traits of a Scientologist and are now seen as anti-social.

    Having once adhered to these doctrines and now rejecting them is not as easy as “just let it go.”

    These re evaluations of some of the doctrines of Ron’s are sometimes the result of a lot of soul searching and emotional pain.

    Free inspection Jim, knowing what we know, being allowed to inspect information without the fear of “ruin them utterly”, resolving sacred cows and daring to be critical of a man that threatened your eternal salvation for being critical is more the demonstration of courage more than an inability to let go.

  67. Some beautiful thoughtful writing on this site. Don’t over think. Forgive yourself and move past. Scientology does not define a single one of us.

  68. And more importantly to the ideas of this thread:

    Whether Ron meant Christ did not exist or he meant there is no real person called Christ in R6 is completely not the issue.

    The issue is that Ron took a world religion, with it’s founder and billion and a half followers and associated them with insanity, bank, engrams, lies etc.

    The adherence too, and agreement with, such dangerously delusional associations given to Christianity, causes great distortions in the mind.

    Putting Christ and Christianity into R6? Can you, Jim, actually say this is the truth.

    There are many doctrines to re evaluate Jim. I hope you find that process a boon to your spiritual growth.


  69. spyrosillusionist

    I too think he did much better than to just leave a COS behind.

    I don’t need to forgive him about anything. There was no better philosophy/frame of thinking I was into before I entered Scientology. Schooling and other factors had taught me well to be a robot long before some members of Scientology attempted to. I created some severe charges due to my own foolishness (mostly my agreements with other members of the group), but I broadened my horizons, which was something I was longing for. I went to Scientology myself, while I was suspicious of risks. Now, I can move on furtherly.

    I will never be normal. People are good, but the preached and imposed lines of thinking are sick. It’s all about being a good worker, and buying, and parroting the ideas of others, and struggling to hold a mere relationship together and trying to make some space within all that to have some good fun. Of course not all are like that, but it’s pretty normal to be like that –it’s mother nature’s or God’s will.

    I’m sorry for the guys that devoted their lives to work and fight for the goals of the Church. I think that’s why Scientology in general is fought -often with lies-, so that the group will get dismantled, or shrunk, and people will be set free. I think it will be better if it just shrinks very much, so that the very hardcore ones will stay inside and set each other ‘free’ for the next billions of years, unable to reach anybody else but each other.

  70. I don’t mean to offend anyone here, but when I listen to the lecture it’s clear to me that he is saying there is no Christ. It’s sort of a side comment. A “by the way- there was no Christ” type of comment. I agree that there probably was no Christ, as in Christianity. There may have been a man who said and did some interesting things, but he’s been made into a god of sorts and I dont think that was what hwas.

  71. This person was REALLY upstat and from a different country.
    I always lived a charmed like in CO$ and never experienced really
    bad experiences. And as the E/O held from Cope /O never dished
    them out. London back then was pretty cool. After returning as an FEBC
    I left shortly afterward [1982], did some further services with no hassle
    and had help in reducing my Freeloader bill as the FEBC was non standard
    in that one who did not reach student points target had to keep studying
    untill they did, no matter how long. And many did not get enough sleep to be studentable! I’ve always lived a charmed life. A pre-requisite for FEBC was purif. Was never interested as I’d never done street drugs. So did it at Flag and thus I escaped the long nights as I had to be sessionable. Did really well on purif. I believe lead as I was a taxi driver for some years in
    central london when lead was in petrol.

    I heard from a fellow FEBC student that the 1980 FEBC evolution
    [400 students when I was there] had 60% never return to their orgs.
    She was told this when she went to LA for some cleanup and review.

  72. Henry David Thoreau would probably have had high praise for LRH daring to have his own truth and standing up against traditional thought on many things, including thoughts that “don’t appear to coincide” with Christ:

    “It is remarkable that the highest intellectual mood which the world tolerates is the perception of the truth of the most ancient revelations, now in some respects out of date; but any direct revelation, any original thoughts, it hates like virtue… but there was a man who lived a long, long time ago, and his name was Moses, and another whose name was Christ, and if your thought does not, or does not appear to, coincide with what they said, the good man or the good woman has no ears to hear you…” Thoreau

  73. Something closely connected to the idea of forgiveness is
    redemption. Perhaps one can consider it some sort of pro active self forgiveness. It can be done solo and I expect many here have done this.

    re·demp·tion [ri-demp-shuhn] Show IPA
    an act of redeeming or atoning for a fault or mistake, or the state of being redeemed.
    deliverance; rescue.
    Theology . deliverance from sin; salvation.
    atonement for guilt.

  74. Robert, there was a time when session KR’s were not sent to the Ethics Officer. It was only at some point later that a new policy came out which went along with LRH’s other desperate efforts to save Scientology. What you brought up is a good example of mistakes that Independent auditors can rectify by returning to the original principles and practices.

  75. Forgiveness is a benefit to the forgiver. It is a powerful leap to a quality state of being. It dissolves ridges: energy patterns that corrupt. It lightens the load of the forgiven and brings soul consciousness back into focus.

  76. Chris, I can see how it might be understood the way you got it. But I think you would also have to grant that it can be interpreted the other way, as some of us do. So at worst it’s ambiguous. However, the other reference in the PDC lecture (which I quoted below) is very clear as to LRH viewpoint. He said, “Here on Earth there was undoubtedly a Christ.”

  77. Good points Marty. Good essay.
    Even though most major religions promote the theme of forgiveness (even if it is more beneficial for the benefactor than the beneficiary,) in the “Church” of Scientology there is no forgiveness, there are no *mistakes* there are only *CRIMES* and accusations and further domination and further punishment.
    1) There is no forgiveness of a write up of your overts and witholds and crimes. there are “end ruds” Security check police polygraph questions:::
    on the meter on the O/w write up 1/2 truth ? Untruth ? Suppressed ?
    2) No forgiveness on a critical thought on management or David Miscavige. Instead, there there are mind numbing sec checks (confessionals) that run for weeks, months to get you to change your mind done like this ~~

  78. “The issue is that Ron took a world religion, with it’s founder and billion and a half followers and associated them with insanity, bank, engrams, lies etc.”

    Brian, are you saying this is not a pretty accurate view of Christianity over the past 2,000 years???

    Because if you are, I would have to say you have not looked at the history of Christianity very closely.

  79. threefeetback

    with no need to change the facts

  80. As LRH said, a person becomes the effect of his own causation. LRH certainly caused a LOT of things, some good, some bad. Some of the bad decisions and mistakes he made, the things he messed up, his character faults (we ALL have them) came back to bite him in the ass later. If he wouldn’t have created BIG effects – be brave enough to do it and accept the consequences – we wouldn’t be here talking about this.

    You wouldn’t call your trash man evil and blog about him and try to warn the whole world about him if he messed up your lawn with your dumpster – you don’t expect the trash man to be perfect. LRH, in the other hand, set himself up for it: he has definitely set a very high standard and expectations to measure him by, and in many cases, he failed to live up to his own standards. Were they even attainable? I’m still not sure. He failed in many things. He succeeded in others. He created a huge, very complex, far reaching collection of “things”. You can’t just pick one of the available labels, affix it to LRH and call it a day. You could certainly call him “productive” and “intelligent”. Evil? I don’t know. If he spent a lifetime creating materials that he honestly believed was helping people (and THAT I don’t question), that really doesn’t sound “evil” – evil people just don’t bother. They focus on what’s in it for them, and how they can enjoy the benefits of others’ work personally, and usually don’t tend to be productive or create value.

    The fact that there is such a heated conversation on this topic with a lot of people participating indicates to me that LRH, and what he did, was IMPORTANT to many people. You don’t see Tony Ortega dedicate his life “exposing” the shoe store owner next door. He picked LRH and Scientology, because good or bad, there is a lot of interest in them, including his. Some want to label LRH as evil, some as a saviour, some as a con man, some as a prophet, some as a teacher – but I think this says less about LRH and more about their tendency to try to simplify complicated things – gee, I can’t add this LRH guy to my inventory – my software won’t let me save the record without assigning him to a category first. Life is not a filing system. EVERY bag you get is a mixed bag. Get over it. It is your job to pick what you believe, pick what you use, choose your own way. LRH’s life and work is a lesson, no matter how you look at it – so learn from it what you will.

    Heck, people are suing car makers because they can’t get the promised gas mileage from their car. Now the car maker is a “villain”. If something as simple and measurable can lead to labelling the company that makes the car you couldn’t survive a week without “evil”, do you think “the argument about LRH” will ever be settled? He was not a 1 dimensional, predictable action hero or villain from a Hollywood flick that you can “understand” after 90 minutes of storyline.

    It’s a complex story that goes beyond a lifetime, and its consequences, shaped by LRH and plenty of others. Neither it is black, nor it is white. It has millions of colors, shapes, patterns, materials, twists and turns, etc. You can learn from it. Just don’t try to put it in a box with a label on it.

  81. I’m just moving over to your table. I figured there would be a new, second act, but the “alter boy” rap, I was unprepared for.

  82. Sorry, this message is addressed specifically to Alanzo.

  83. Marty: “Go a bit broader and realize that the entirety of Christianity is the restimulation of an electronically induced implantation (R6) on all earth beings.”

    I don’t think he said that it’s the “entirety” of Christianity. Yes, he definitely thought there was restimulation from the R6 implant involved with Christianity, but on the PDC lecture that I quoted he said: (my caps) “ONE of the reasons he…WOULD GO FORWARD SO HARD is he had a GOOD ASSIST back of him in terms of an implant.” To me the “go forward so hard” was a validation of what Christ achieved, and the “good assist back of him” was only “one” of the reasons. I’m referring to the DMSMH reference (also quoted in my other comment) on manic engrams, in which LRH used the example of Alexander the Great. He pointed out that if the manic aligns with the person’s purposes and the person also has great natural ability, a lot can be achieved. It would be to Jesus’ credit that he had both a high basic purpose and great ability and thus was able to achieve greatness and bring wisdom to the planet in spite of the implant “assist.”

  84. Marilidi, “But an engram is capable only of as much ‘power’ as is present in the host”,…. Thanks for sharing. I can breathe again.

  85. Karen,
    WTF? That is insane. It is totally introverting and it looks like it was designed to spin people in!

    Was that kind of auditing based on any LRH rundown, or it has been cooked up by some KGB operator?

  86. Many people confuse “forgive” with “forget”. I think “get over it” aligns with forgiveness.

    But I know if someone is prone to dabbling in treason , habitually,It doesn’t matter if they sprout wings and grow a halo. It’s just Halloween 24/7. You can shape shift into a new identity at the drop of a hat. But handling your purposes behind the identity is another matter.

    There is plenty of case history on gnarly angels. The image of Gabriel blowing a trumpet blast to indicate the Lord’s return to Earth. He was a cherub. There were some cherubs on the track too.

    And, the Grim Reaper is an angel. In some cases, the Grim Reaper can actually cause the victim’s death.

    Lucifer, A,K,A, Satan, the most notorious and the leader of these unholy angels, is a liar, a murderer, and a thief. (John 10:10) He was the angel of music and he was cast out of heaven. All of them were created as holy angels, but about a third of them rebelled against God and fell from their sinless position. He hated God and he passionately hated God’s people. Satan and of all the angels breaking bad he was supernaturally brilliant, and disguises himself as an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14).

    Just as we know a person’s track record when we forgive we also know the
    whole track records of some of these “angels of light”. They cross over sacred boundaries beyond concern.

  87. And often, in close conspiracies with similar menacing forces.

  88. spyrosillusionist

    I think another good topic -and relevant to forgiveness- could be the sympathy/no sympathy dischotomy. We know from Dianetics that sympathy can be covertly destructive, but does that mean that we shouldn’t give a damn, for God’s sake? What about that ‘help this’ and ‘help that’ sh1t in the Church all the time? Where does ‘help’ fit in no-sympathy? Or isn’t it no-sympathy to not help somebody because he is not rich? If he isn’t rich he is downstat, huh? Well, DM must be very upstat because he has a freakin billion $ in his account!!!

    If somebody likes to revive, enchance, save Scientology, he can start by helping the Scientologist next door –even for free. Yes, it’s way better than wage war agaist the external bad guys, because he is not cause over them.

  89. Let’s continue chanting. Chanting wards them off.

  90. Hubbard mentions typical Marcab P.R. (public relations) in this scripture held with R.T.C. (David Miscavige). The church said this document was a “forgery”. That means a copy. And it was a copy. Just like all the other documents entered into court were copies. Everything we have, even the books, are copies. R.T.C. (David Miscavige keeps all of the originals) . Added to the list of claims against Jesus, here he is labeled a pedophile :

  91. My Dad recalled a past life living in France. While I was in Germany, he asked me to go look where he had lived. He described where it was and what it was like. Spot on. My wife had a pregnancy assist and remembered parts of her birth. She had morning noon and night sickness and had to be admitted to the hosp. for I.V. feeding to get her blood sugar and hydration up. She told me some of the details of her birth and I later verified some of the details with her mother. Spot on. The minute she walked out of session, she was never sick again.
    Many people believe in past lives, I know about them.
    Nuff said. I ‘saw’ some of the parts inside of a particular type of wall light switch while doing objectives. I later took apart the same type of switch. It was just what I saw. There is no doubt.

  92. I dunno, Karen. I think a 10 million dollar donation gets you forgivness for just about anything…at least for a while.

    I also found it nearly impossible during my internships at the Tampa org to give anyone forgiveness for the hundreds and hundreds of hours of confessionals I heard. They pretty much let you do it for the Joburg on G II, but everything else is heartily used for behavior modification or extortion.

    I believe, from what I’ve seen, that those who can’t easily simply forgive others are those who cannot forgive themseves for something. Clean hands and all that.

  93. “just a shade above clear”

  94. A bit of horror and scifi wrapped into a mystery sandwich, The onley thing I find of intrest is Jesus the man or Christ the Mesiass

    R6, Implants and the lot, Well how did L Ron Hubbard know that a piece of R6 if it ever existed was found 600 BC, He wasn’t that good in history. And if this was so what was his reference ?

  95. So, if these were Hubbard’s final thoughts on Christ, obviously he believed he existed. I never knew him personally. But if you do not remember, back in that era, Magic and Religion were considered to fall under the dynamic. There are many tales of magic in the Bible. I read the book of revelations. Full of magic. It was written by someone who was stranded on Patmos, an island in the Aegean. And these were visions. I think there may have been some mushrooms on the Island that put him into hallucinations. That was my take having read the Book of Revelations.

  96. Thank you for this.

  97. That’s to Mrs. Libnish.

  98. I have not read all the comments herein, so please forgive me if I repeat another’s statement. I would say offhand that the practice (or ability?) of “letting go” and the practice of “forgiveness” are related. Perhaps cousins. Or maybe they are part of one overall thing: perhaps the practice of “letting go” is stultified and limited in scope if the ability to forgive is lacking. Isn’t forgiveness a form of “letting go”?

  99. Love seems to be part and parcel to forgiveness as well. I would say that forgiveness in the Christian sense is not just a letting go of the past, like “burying the hatchet.” It’s more like obliterating past evil in a burst of loving white light and warmth with no conditions or strings attached.

  100. Wow…….talk about a truly squirrel “confessional” !
    Standard confessionals are supposed to have FORGIVENESS as part of them and can be very freeing to a person receiving one.
    The crap described by the gentleman in this video demonstrates to me that Miscavige and his latter day Sea Org slaves are primary source of the “squirreling” that they themselves complain about so loudly. They are using these procedures to accomplish BRAINWASHING instead of bringing relief to people. What a travesty. And this travesty has now been exported all other organizations!
    The fellow in the video is a truly amazing being to have survived this abuse. My heart goes out to him even as I admire his strength and grace.

    Plumbers really know what they are talking about when they observe that “shit runs down hill.”

  101. I have some sympathy with this notion. As Marty has pointed out numerous times both on this blog and in his books, it is a futile exercise to quote an LRH reference to “prove” something, when one can almost always pull out another one saying the virtually direct opposite. It’s a never ending circle. In any case, who cares if LRH thought there was a Christ or not? Why should it be super-significant? It’s just one man’s opinion. When I go to my local Church on Sundays I try and see what the bible passages are about and think about how I can better my life with them – I certainly don’t sit there wondering whether the text is from some sort of implant! Surely much more useful would be to read and acquire wisdom from a whole variety of sources and use what’s worthwhile.

  102. Congratulations by the way. This was no small event. The decision in this case will go in the law books and become part of common law. This was absolutely HUGE! Justice. Sanity. Reason. Amen!

    I assume this has caused a five alarm fire in the Church, there must be an “all hands” effort to suppress Marty. I ‘m not worried about that. But for the rest reading and posting here, stay alert to any efforts to generate civil wars on the blog and efforts to Fair Game Marty.

    The O.S.A. plants are under just as much pressure as staff in the Church and they ARE ACTUAL TROUBLE SOURCES not potential ones. They have battle plans, they build influence, and can manifest in other forms. as they get others to do their bidding. Some are masters at manipulation and shape shifting.

    The conditions in this arena are at tipping point crucial. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. Be awake. Watch Marty’s back.

  103. I think that would fit with what I wrote above. There was a man, maybe even had some “OT” phenomenon going on, but what his image has been built up to by religion in something else. Where people are summoned and gather not quite of their own free will in a building to stare at a cross on a semi- hypnotic trance and repeat back words often without understanding, or wanting to understand what they mean- that’s something else. Church can be nice sometimes with the group and people, but there’s something not quite right. If you said they were responding reactive key to an implant I would say that could be a good explanation. Us it “the” explanation. Who knows.

  104. Oh my God! No wonder the staff are in the condition they are in. This is not auditing, it is ser facing on people. Making them wrong. Making them invalidate their own judgement. I never had auditing like this! I have never even seen a reference on auditing like this. Hasn’t there been a qual at the base at all since Hubbard left that place?

  105. Alright, here we go.

    Monique Rathbun is putting order in to chaos! That’s what’s happening. Now the tone arm is moving! I LOVE that woman! I LOVE that woman! This is HANDLING the situation and ANY DANGER in it!

    Wikipedia says:
    Forgiveness is the renunciation or cessation of resentment, indignation or anger as a result of a perceived offense, disagreement, or mistake, or ceasing to demand punishment or restitution.

    While this is a good definition it doesn’t say how you can achieve this. How do you let go, how do you forgive? (See also etymology of the word.)

    Forgivness is not something mechanical. You don’t push a button and then you forgive.

    Scientology teaches to take responsibility for the things you run into. It could be said, the more a person raises his awareness, the more he knows how he got himself into the experience.
    In fact I can’t think of a better way to achieve reliefe than by recognizing his own co-creation of circumstances.

    “Thank you for the experience” are the words of someone who really can let go of something. This is forgivness and that’s why we don’t give up but gain integrity when we trully forgive.

    (Sorry for my bad english, again. I’d wish I could speak my mind fully in your language.)

  107. Until about a year ago I had always had a resistance to the word ‘forgiveness.’ It was one of those words that I would rarely use. Instead, I preferred to use ‘letting go’ as a way to communicate to another that no grudge would be carried against them or that they would be better off not to carry a grudge against another.

    What changed for me a year ago was that I read the book, The Disappearance of the Universe by Gary Renard. And even though I had a resistance to some of the Christian terminology used in the book, the material did hold my interest and I experienced more than a few revelations as I continued to read. My most profound revelation had to do with my perception and interpretation of forgiveness.

    I came to recognize that I had been perceiving forgiveness, not as a double edged sword, but as a poly-edged sword loaded with contradictions. My perspective of forgiveness had to do with a forgiveness that is intertwined very closely with the unholy trinity of sin, guilt and fear. A forgiveness with strong undertones of regret, judgement (better than-less than duality), condemnation and uncertain consequences. This is a reactive mind or ego mind version of forgiveness and it only serves to separate. It is a false perception. It perpetuates and fortifies the deceit that a spiritual being is capable of causing harm or being harmed.

    For a very long time I have both viewed and referred to this world, this universe, that I seem to be in as being an illusion. But, I never really knew what to do with that perspective. I mean, okay, it’s an illusion but it seems very, very real so what do I do with this? How do I get myself, my attention, out of the illusion? I think eventually all questions asked do get answered. And oddly enough the answer to my question regarding how to get out of the illusion came in the form of forgiveness. Forgiveness is the key part in my journey of self-discovery now. And even though forgiveness (spirit forgiveness not reactive or ego sourced forgiveness) is itself an illusion, it is a true perception of the illusion. In other words, it recognizes that the illusion is not real, there are no ‘others’ and that no harm can ever really be done.

    In reading The Disappearance of the Universe, I came across this example of a thought process of spiritual forgiveness that communicates true perception of the illusion. I have found it to be very useful. It can be applied to any person, situation or event. Here it is:

    “You’re not really there. If I think you are guilty or the cause of the problem, and if I made you up, then the imagined guilt and fear must be in me. Since the separation from God never occurred, I forgive ‘both’ of us for what we haven’t really done. Now there is only innocence, and I join with the Holy Spirit in peace.”

    The Disappearance of the Universe was my stepping stone to A Course in Miracles. CIM is an eleven-hundred page, 500,000 word course that teaches the metaphysics of forgiveness. And it continues to make a pretzel out of me. Oddly enough, there is nothing in the course that addresses behavior. ‘Behavior’ is a false perception. Behavior is what takes place on the movie screen. The course is not interested in the movie screen, its focus is on the projector and what is running the projector.

  108. No wonder OSA has called in the reserves! This is a 911 call for David Miscavige. They will BOTH get busted for perjury in Texas!

  109. Can you believe the David Miscavige has already threatened Tommy Davis and his wife? He had a gun to their head!

    “And now we think there’s evidence that helps nail down just when Miscavige threw a tantrum and turned on his two shiny flacks. The sharp researchers over at noticed that on March 30, 2011, the Church of Scientology International (CSI) registered the website domain “” On the same day, “” was also registered.”

  110. I’m currently reading a wonderful “modern” Catholic priest — Richard Rohr. He quotes numerous integral teachers including Ken Wilber.

    What I find SO fascinating in my current studies is the metaphorical explanations of Christ, the cross etc., AND the belief that while Christ stories ARE metaphorical they were also real. There was a real Christ who was the son of God.

    BUT – what is being presented is that FEW honestly hear what Jesus Christ had/has to say because 1) he was the SON of god, not the daughter (so they hear through PATRIARCHAL ears)

    2) his teachings were non-violent, forgiveness, nurturing something a woman does, but not typically a man. Men fight wars, revenge wrong doings and provide but not nurture

    3) Jesus Christ could not possibly have been a woman 2500 years ago – in a patriarchal society no one would have given him a passing glance.

    4) NOW 2,500 years later the teachings of Jesus Christ about forgiveness etc are STARTING to be listened to

    5) WHY? Because the male dominated societies have more or less shown that they only continue to bring war and possessions and greed

    Therefore — the true teachings of Jesus can finally be heard as we step away from such an aggressive way of life.

    And now — men who are AWARE of their own feminine side are becoming the heroes and spokespersons for a genuine deep belief in Christ. As well as those who are deeply integral — like Ken Wilber.

    The 8th dynamic after all is a PART of each of us — does this mean WE ARE A GOD — (although MOST scientologists interpret the lack of conversation about god to mean exactly that — and feel THEY can judge others, are omnipotent etc … to their utter peril)

    No. We are not god.

    We have an indwelling spirit of god and well as the more you seek Him the more you will find Him everywhere.

    It’s a trinity — and the incarnate god was Jesus Christ …

    Because it worked at the time to be a male.

    Strongly suggest reading “Simplicity” by Richard Rohr. Far better expresses this than I can. It’s a new look for me.


    And Marty and Mosey — you continue to show the world that INDEED you are on the RIGHT SIDE of history and leading the way … you are the BEST of what we each can be. Honest, forgiving, forthcoming and very willing to put yourselves on the cross so THAT the sins of others can be shown and stopped.

    An inspiration to us all.


  111. Point # 5 about male dominated societies only bringing war — was a very short circuit explanation.

    Male domination is NEEDED to develop a strong base, a strong container … once that is established … it needs to “crack” so that the inner strength, inner being, indwelling spirit can come forth.

    Each of us experiences this as we walk through life. The two halves of life.

    The first half (male oriented in scope) builds a strong container … strong ego.

    The second half is more about what is our REAL journey in life … not the MEST oriented one.

  112. Marildi –

    Have you ever thought about the possibility that LRH said one thing to the broad public at one time, and quite another to Scientologists in lectures that were NOT Broad Public Issue at others times?

    Like a Creed of the Church that guarantees the right to freedom of speech placed on the front walls of every org and mission, and a list of suppressive acts that gets you declared and fair gamed for exercising that right issued only to HCOs.

    This was a very common pattern from LRH throughout his career in developing and running Scientology.

    The contradictions are very important to expose so that people have the information necessary to make informed decisions about their own involvement in Scientology. If they decide to give over their mind and life to Scientology after knowing these things, then that is purely their decision.

    But at least they have the information necessary to make it an informed one.


    Or wrong?


  113. LOL. Just like you, Oracle, I am full of surprises.

    “No one is any one thing. Ever.”

    “Orange is The New Black”, Episode 12.

    Alanzo (:>

  114. R6? Christianity? Accurate?

    The true history of Christianity is combination of many elements. Power and piety. Great harm has been done and great good. There is a reason that, before Constantine, before Crusades, popes etc that Chritianity won out in market place of ideas against paganism. But that knowledge is called history, not a pipe dream dreamed up from a cosmology possibly cooked up from pinks, reds and rum.

    If Ron addressed the reality of history that would be correct. Then we could be discusing known info.

    It is not history Ron is addressing here. I have my view where he was at. But you know my view Valkov.

    R6? History?

  115. Valkov, I have studied the history of Christianity. Many books.

  116. I spent 30 years in SCN. I recall in the 80’s, I was at SFO I said “I’m sorry” for something I said or did. I remember well a gal turned around, looked at me sternly and said “never say you’re sorry, it’s a sign of weakness”. Even now, all these years later, I still see her each time I say that phrase.

  117. The book of revelations is a book of the inner experiences of John. John was a mystic using the language available to him at the time.

    The various sounds he describes are also described by yogis in deep states of meditation.

  118. Globetrotter, brilliant post!

  119. Yes, congratulations to Mosey and Marty!

  120. That isn’t something I said – it’s an LRH quote. And if it’s taken out of context, you miss the whole point.

  121. Contrary to popular belief Satanism is not a relegion that arbitrarily condones greed, hatred, violence and anger. As the modern day Christian has changed, so has the Satanist. A person practicing Satanism may go about his life like anyone else. He may however indulge himself more in the things he enjoys and will not give in to weakness. A strong minded individual may actually be living closer to Satanism than to Christianity, even though nobody might even think of labelling him as a Satanist.
    Satanism is not inherently evil, as most people think, that’s just a stereotype invented by Christians. They pride themselves in that “had it not been for Satan, God would be without a job.”

  122. Martin, thanks for that sanity.

  123. @Letting Go: I have worked on the same conundrum. I wouldn’t claim an answer. But here are a couple thoughts.

    When someone is critical in the sense of nattery, inappropriate criticism, there often is an overt (harmful act) and a withhold or missed withhold regarding the target of the criticism. At least that’s been my experience in auditing.

    From one way of looking at it, this is very much like the Christian suggestion that he who is without sin be the one to throw the first stone. Asking for an overt is like asking for one’s own “sins.” That tends to sober one up and realize quickly that “Wow, the person I’m critical of has done no worse than me — I’m just as much responsible for this situation.”

    From a modern psychology (gasp) perspective, such as evidenced in things like Non-Violent Communication, it is a way of recognizing that “I cannot control other people; they are responsible for their own actions as I am responsible for mine, and I am responsible for my own feelings, just as they are responsible for theirs.”

    From a Buddhistic perspective, “pulling overts” or “getting withholds off” does tend to re-center one on the importance of not doing harm to other sentient beings. And if another being has injured you, the response becomes compassion not condemnation. I guess one could say that compassion transcends forgiveness as it is based on a deep and rich understanding, whereas perhaps forgiveness might not be.

    So I think the basic concepts of the overt-motivator and withhold interactions are very sound.

    Here’s where I personally think this area of Scientology ran off the rails and became too broadly applied.

    1. It cannot be true that every single criticism is a sign of an overt by the criticizer. If it were true, we’d have to get Ron on the cans and ask what he had done to the AMA, to the IRS, etc.

    2. It cannot be true that every harmful act (from the perspective of a given dynamic) can always be an overt or wrong. If it were, we’d have to delete Ron’s statement about never fearing to hurt another in a just cause.

    3. It cannot be true that a just cause always means something that benefits the Church of Scientology and does not harm said church. If it were, the Church of Scientology would be immune from all criticism forever. Yes, just cause can be defined by the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics, but C of S is just one group on one dynamic. And greatest good is just one branch of ethics (utilitarianism, consequentialism). There are other branches that fit specific situations — deontology, or duty, basically. Or divine command who those who believe in commandments of a god. Scientology pulls a sleight of hand in the area of ethics. It touts “greatest good” (consequentialism) which sounds very broad and egalitarian, even while it actually practices unflagging “duty” (deontology) to one group on one dynamic (itself).

    Summary: Scientology ended up over-broadening the applicability of the overt/motivator sequence so that it serves to effectively quash all critical thinking, all inquiry, all expansion of knowledge, all free speech, and freedom itself. They might as well be like the Islamic military leader who (per some accounts) directed the destruction of the ancient library in Alexandria, saying “If it’s in the Quran, we don’t need it; if it’s not in the Quran, we don’t need it.” Finally, the overt/withhold technology serves as an effective tool to control current and former members who are sometimes cowed by knowing their innermost “secrets” are in their auditing records, sometimes on video, and sometimes in their own “write ups of their overts.” Thus an area of understanding that could be used for good came to be used as a sort of Black Scientology (IMO) to stop thought, insulate C of S from any criticism, and control and enslave members through fear. Not lots of room for forgiveness in there or truly understanding that our own supposedly unique “deep, dark secrets” are pretty common fare for the human race including all other Scientologists.

  124. I sure don’t doubt your experiences (or your fathers). I’ve seen too many things myself to rule out the possibility. For example, I have extremely clear and emotional “memories” (whatever they are) of Europe in WW II. When I tapped into those mental image pictures, in Scientology terms, I must have blown off so much charge that the auditor got a blister on his TA hand from adjusting it. I went through what in Scientology terms was a “grief charge” — the most powerful one I ever experienced before or since. Was it a “true” recollection? I wish I had some checkable facts (like names or locations), but I don’t. Did the auditing experience get me in touch with a truth of some sort? Absolutely! I have ever since had broader and deeper compassion and an unshakeable hope of doing good in the world.

  125. Gail, I both feel you and really like this post.

    I am not personally clear on exactly when to fight and when to forgive. To me, mostly I think it has to do with patterns. Was it a honest mistake or an accidental whatever, or was it a pattern, or was it intentional and malicious.

    I don’t know that I could forgive, for example, and active bully or predator.

  126. I have to agree with Criss on that.

  127. I agree , I considered modern Satanism but it is cold and my being refused it and told my head it wasn’t for me.

  128. I agree on the nuance between Chris the messias and Jesus the man.

    R6 is a different story

  129. Great post Marty. I think forgiveness allows the one doing the forgiving to move on just like apologizing for something frees up a person. Otherwise things can eat at you. That said, I will not be able to forgive Miscavige until a few things occur:
    1. He returns my money and the money of all those asking for it.
    2. He spends a good amount of time in prison.
    3. He stays away from anything having to do with Scientology for a long, long time. .

  130. Mind over matter. Function monitors structure :

    Tractor beams:

    Other extraordinary human capabilities:

  131. Perhaps forgiveness falls along this these kinds of dynamics.

  132. Letting Go

    I may have a somewhat different take on forgiveness.

    I consider that forgiveness is more for the person who has done something that they regret, to another. The problem with regret is that it sticks the regrettor to the person they conceive they have harmed. They want to somehow undo the action. (run time backwards to a point where the action had not occurred) It is very often that regret puts one in the position of trying to make it right, and in this case attaches the regrettor to the other person’s life continuum. They tend to somewhat assume (take upon themself) the “harmed person’s” pain, or discomfort in an attempt to protect the other person from it. (protecting others, down to protecting bodies)

    And this is where forgiving comes in.

    The person who the perpetrator considers that he has harmed is potentially in a position to release the perpetrator from his assumed obligation to repair the harm further.

    This is what forgiveness is to me. It is done for the person who regrets his action. Forgiveness is something that one would do to release the perpetrator from the blame, shame, and regret he may be suffering because of his actions. (overts)

    What potentially makes the forgiver stronger is that he has put another’s suffering above his own. Potentially he will have let go of any feeling of his own of having been irreparably harmed. (or perhaps he never really felt harmed in the first place) The action of true forgiveness potentially releases both parties from any continued fixation on the incident.


  133. To be acuurate he didn’t denie Jesus, My problem is that he puts a kernel of thruth into something and uses it to validate his story lines.

  134. I got it that it was from an LRH quote, and I got the context. Nevertheless this is a powerful sentence to think about in itself independently. “Hosts” have the power behind these forces. Assimilating this one thought shifted my viewpoint about power and the power behind the minds. It’s all relative!

  135. In actuality there are 57 gospels

  136. Am I to understand Pat that until conditions 1-3 in your comment above are met you will be unable to forgive David Miscavige and therefore by your own comment will be unable to move on until these conditions are met.

    That might be called a condition of being “stuck” — which isn’t really the best place in the world to be. Unable to move on/forward is basically an untenable position. And of course none of us can move backwards (or undo to past) … therefore staying stuck UNTIL some condition that you don’t really control changes.

    Perhaps you might want to reconsider your own considerations/postulates.


  137. You mean…… you mean….. LRH, among other things, sometimes acted like a POLITICIAN????? 🙂

  138. Yes, it is a complex story shaped by many, many people and still being shaped by many.

    But I will venture this – LRH used boxes liberally, and slammed psychiatry in the most damning of them all. The reason behind the downfall of this universe. Where is the forgiveness or understanding that it is a complex story shaped by many, many people?

    Yes, just another one of his faults, we all have them. Perhaps we should stop burdening ourselves with his ones.

  139. I don’t believe that forgiveness and “fighting” are not mutually exclusive.

    One should ALWAYS “smite” the money changers and the bullies 🙂 —

    It’s to THEIR benefit to be stopped as well as our own. It prevents the bullies from committing more egregious actions.

    Doesn’t mean you can’t forgive them for what they do —

    After all — basically they “sin” because they are ignorant of what they do.

    According to what someone once said 🙂


  140. Hi Christine,
    Thank you for this beautiful contribution. I think I am reaching a point where I am beginning to understand allegories and symbolism through my feelings. Kind of like things suddenly become real to me where before they were just word and I read with no meaning. Suddenly it doesn’t really matter who the source of that symbolism is or was, I understand it without choosing sides. This is an ongoing process, only just begun for me. Until recently, I thought only in terms of definitions and being told exactly what to do and think.

    When I say symbolism, I don’t just mean a cross somewhere. I mean how a person lives their life. Theodor Sturgeon apparently once said, in response to a student’s question about message in writing, “It doesn’t matter what you write, what you believe will shine through.” I am beginning to see the truth of this in everything. It doesn’t matter what we say, pretend. What we believe shines through.

    I would ask you a favour – would you mind giving the whole title of Rohr’s book? I found two on Amazon, “Simplicity: The Freedom of Letting Go” and “Simplicity: The Art of Living” and wasn’t sure which one you meant.


  141. One important thing, you can never loose your Eternity, it is yours

  142. Yes your post rings true, there are a number of things he was ahead with

  143. From a man who claimed to be enlightened you would expect more. Just saying

  144. Well Brian, these are your words: “…..and associated them with insanity, bank, engrams, lies etc.” Well, I associate much of Christian history with “insanity, bank, engrams, lies, etc”. Every bit as much and more, actually, than I associate the history of Scientology those kind of qualities. Far more, truthfully. The reality of Christianity is built upon the blood and bones of millions of people. That’s a matter of historical record. In every country in which Christianity exists as a majority religion, it is built upon the slaughter of those who failed to convert. Jesus’ prayer was very apropos: “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.” But is that true, that they did not know?

  145. Regarding the “money changers”, in order to really understand what this was all about and why Jesus was so upset and angry about it, one would need to understand what they actually did.Unfortunatly it is not covered too well in the scriptures.
    They manipulated foreign moneys to their benefit. They decieved faithful believers.
    Kind like Miscavige who collects money for Library Campaings with the pretense it would help to clear the planet.
    I think that if LRH would hear this he would gorge this little gnome in the air.

  146. Personally, I think the subject, Scientology, is more concerned with ‘truth’ than it is with ‘love’, hence the lack of the attributes of love, such as empathy, forgiveness, compassion, and so on.

  147. French canadian talking English so forgive him for talking slowley

  148. Espiritu, just let’s not jump over to the other side. There is a
    middle road. First off, the fellow in the video is a very good
    person who I worked with and I do truly respect.
    Secondly, the truth rundown can have a deep cleansing
    effect on a being AS LONG AS IT IS NOT OVERDONE,
    nor done as a punishment and with the counsellor having
    his/her intentions in the direction of really helping the person
    who is being audited. Just like someone can overdo drinking
    water and subsequently die by washing out the the body’s
    electrolytes so can any auditing be overrun or overdone
    with detrimental effects on the being. But even in that
    scenario it can be remedied. LRH devised steps to take
    if something was overrun. I have never seen a truth rundown
    take months and I can safely say if it does it is not done

  149. Sorry for the double negative making impossible to follow …

    But forgiveness and fighting to are not mutually exclusive.

    You can forgive AND fight. 🙂

  150. I often say sorry for when I fuck up, being drunk, posting random sh*t on the boards, putting my foot in my mouth, having been to harsh to someone.

    I like to help you out and put a more positive twist on that (gibbs does say sorry sometimes or ïwas wrong”),+it%E2%80%99s+a+sign+of+weakness%E2%80%9D.&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:nl:official&client=firefox-a&channel=np&source=hp&gws_rd=cr&ei=DIxMUv70EPDz0gWN3YHYCA#channel=np&q=%E2%80%9Cnever+say+you%E2%80%99re+sorry%2C+it%E2%80%99s+a+sign+of+weakness%E2%80%9D.&rls=org.mozilla:nl%3Aofficial

  151. Not “fight” actually — expose which is to some a form of fighting.

  152. One thing about L Ron Hubbard that struck me was he confessing about the dark mass he saw and describing it.

  153. Hi Letting Go — Sorry, I didn’t realize there were two Simplicities by R Rohr.

    The one I am reading is Simplicity: The Freedom of Letting Go —

    I also recommended earlier I believe “Falling Upwards: A Spirituality for the Two Halves of Life” … also by Rohr.

    Both have been incredibly helpful as I continue to forge my path and embrace the journey.


  154. You can’t forgive truelly evil men or women, onley when you see yourself in someone you can forgive.

    If I would see a glimmer of goodness in David Miscavige, I yet have to see that.

  155. Valkov –

    You mean…… you mean….. LRH, among other things, sometimes acted like a POLITICIAN????? 🙂

    Shifting the context won’t work here. These are two very different things.

    Politicians don’t make you sign billion year slave labor contracts. They don’t sell you immortality and super human abilities for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

    They don’t tell you that you have a kill switch in your mind that will give you pneumonia and die if you read the wrong information or think the wrong thoughts, so pay for your OT 3 Package today or else your eternity is “at risk”.

    All you have to do to get the context right here is to “be” LRH while he is telling Scientologists a lie like the one where he was blinded and crippled in combat and cured himself with Dianetics. Hubbard knew he was never in combat. What would YOU have to think about Scientologists to tell them this lie over and over for 36 years straight, in every printing and reprinting of his books, and in “My Philosophy” and on and on – never once correcting it and telling the truth his whole life?

    And that’s just one of the lies that he told Scientologists to sell them the “results” of Dn and Scn. He even told a few people before he died that he thought he had failed. Well great, Ron. Why didn’t you tell the Sea Org members that who were working 80 hour weeks for you for free?

    So no, Hubbard didn’t act like a politician, he acted exactly like he was: a lying, conning, cult leader who intentionally deceived and abused his followers for his own material gain.

    Should he be forgiven for that?

    Probably. Someday.

    But not until people are no longer being harmed by his lies, and while his spawn still profits from them.


  156. “only when you see yourself in someone you can forgive.”
    Why so?
    Could you explain?

  157. If you mean with “fighting” that you want to close loose ends than I understand you. But than you “fight” to take responsibility for your own contribution. No? Like “burning of Karma”?
    Just try to get it right.

  158. Hi Oracle, the truth rundown is actually a very powerful
    and for the being penetrating rundown and if done by
    the book can really help anyone. In my estimation, the
    preliminary folder work before you start the auditing is
    where most of the work should be, just as in repainting
    a wall and prepping for the paint job can take a long time
    compared to the actual laying on the paint. Once you
    have done all the folder work the actual auditing should
    go very fast with some far reaching wins. Yes, I have
    done many and have had it done on me. Ron hit the
    bullseye with this rundown. Of course now it is being
    misused and misrun plus mis-C/Sed like a lot of other
    squirrelling in the church.
    Fortunately anything can be repaired.

  159. Another lyrical and ascended post by Monte.

    Dude’s awesome.


  160. Al, are you just teasing me? You must have seen the many comments I’ve posted where I’ve indicated that LRH completely reversed himself in various ways, and also where I’ve stated – even more often – that what I’m in favor of is core Scientology mainly from the early years. Maybe you’re reading my comments through some kind of filter? 😉

  161. Ah! Got you. And I totally agree. There’s so much truth that LRH imparted – which just needs to be assimilated. Truth is empowering.

  162. Onley in”What is greatness” but destroy utterly isn’t that great , nuff said

  163. Oh Marty what a treasure trove your journey is:

    “If there is any saintly quality, it is not to forgive. “Forgiveness” is a much lower level action and is rather censorious.”

    L Ron Hubbard

  164. CD:

    The 14th Dalai Lama has this to say:

    “The reality is that nobody is one hundred per cent bad. They must have some good qualities if you search hard enough. So, the tendency to see someone as completely negative is due to your own perception based on your own mental projection, rather than the true nature of that individual.”

    To which I’ll add these words by Shantideva – 8th Century Indian Buddhist Scholar :

    “All those who are unhappy in the world are so as a result of their desire for their own happiness.

    All those who are happy in the world are so as a result of their desire for the happiness of others.”

    IF Shantideva’s words are true — and knowing how self-centered and self-important Miscavige is — we know for sure he’s one of the MOST unhappy people in the world.


  165. Gail can you elaborate please, I am listening and willing to hear what prompt your reaction ?

  166. Got what you’re saying. I do know too that there are Christians who are truly inspired and “move on up a little higher” by the teachings of Jesus even though he may have been given a “handicap” by the connection to R6, assuming there is truth to that connection. Jesus and LRH both are controversial in some quarters. But I think in many ways both have received a bad rap.

  167. The discussion is R6 and it being the final arbiter of an evaluation for a causal relationship to religious insanity.

    R6 is the cause of my plumbing problem. That is delusional cause. Plumbing problems do exist.

    Valkov, you are making the case for R6 because religions can be kooky.

    You see, religions are kooky and Ron gives a reason. What Brian! Are you telling me Christianity hasn’t been kooky?!!!

    Brian! Are you telling me there are no plumbing problems!!???

    This is flawed thinking in my opinion. Of course there is craziness in religion.

    The main question is root causes. Ron absolutely assigns cause in R6 to all the ills in civilization.

    And in so doing, he paints Christianity through his cosmology.

    And brands the great Jesus as a pediphile.

    How does he know? And how do you know he knows.

    The answer: faith, belief and trust in Ron. That’s ok, you are free to think that.

  168. SRL, a piece of tech that might help is false data stripping. The “incident” can be discharged of its stimulus-response capability. You might even find that there is an earlier similar incident that keeps that memory coming back.

  169. Letting go, you wrote: “Theodor Sturgeon apparently once said, in response to a student’s question about message in writing, ‘It doesn’t matter what you write, what you believe will shine through.’ I am beginning to see the truth of this in everything. It doesn’t matter what we say, pretend. What we believe shines through.”

    Awesome comment!

  170. Anon-Dog, your on target. And for those who hate the idea of forgiving an a-hole, realize that your doing it for yourself as much as for the other person. When you understand why an a-hole is such, and why forgiveness is important, your in a pretty good place to deal with and understand just about anything.

  171. contradicts himself in one lecture, but great quote and advise. If onley he would have followed his “”own”” advice.

    ‘To hate alone is the road to disaster. To love is the road to strength.
    To love in spite of all is the secret of greatness.
    And may very well be the greatest secret in this universe.’

    L Ron Hubbard

  172. SKM, you wrote: “(Sorry for my bad english, again. I’d wish I could speak my mind fully in your language.)”

    Did you see the comment by Letting go? He wrote: “Theodor Sturgeon apparently once said, in response to a student’s question about message in writing, ‘It doesn’t matter what you write, what you believe will shine through.’ I am beginning to see the truth of this in everything. It doesn’t matter what we say, pretend. What we believe shines through.”

    I quoted it again for you because I think, first of all, that your English is quite adequate, and in any case I’ve noticed that what you believe “shines through.”

  173. Bob, I agree that the focus in Scientology is on truth, but I would say those other things are part of truth – and are part of Scientology, just not in those exact words perhaps.

  174. That’s a great quote – and so true.

  175. Auto correct 1, Chris 0

  176. Don’t take my comment too literally. Note I said that it “can” eat at you. Does DM or his cult eat at me? Absolutely not. He doesn’t have that kind of power.
    Mind you, it’s not like DM has stopped doing all the things we know about. He’s still at it. If he had stopped maybe we’d be having a different conversation. Presently, I’d have to be on drugs to forgive him and all the suffering he caused to countless people.
    ps. Nothing to reconsider here.

  177. Espiritu~~
    You are right on. There was such a thing as “Power to Forgive” which was supposed to be given after confessionals. It is not in use now.
    Leah Remini was put on the Truth Rundown for some 5 months.
    It is a mind control action given with the sole purpose of making a person
    *Realize* and *Cognite* on their adverse thoughts on the *Church* especially management, RTC and David Miscavige.
    You see, the way it runs is that it was YOUR evil, YOUR EVIL intentions that caused you to even think that way !

  178. p.s. I should have said I think some Christians “move on up a little – or a lot – higher.”

  179. Hi Monte. You quote;
    “You’re not really there. If I think you are guilty or the cause of the problem, and if I made you up, then the imagined guilt and fear must be in me. Since the separation from God never occurred, I forgive ‘both’ of us for what we haven’t really done. Now there is only innocence, and I join with the Holy Spirit in peace.”
    Although this may work, it has the feeling of a mind trick, or even denial, to me. I would rather reach for and try to understand that “oneness” which connects me to the person I feel had insured me, and let go of the anger in that fashion. And if we are talking about the same thing and the difference is only the approach, then excuse my misunderstanding the quote. I actually had a hard time getting my wits around it.

  180. YES LDW.
    Right on.
    I explain here in depth how your *SINS* (overts) are monetized.
    You are kind of *Forgiven* in direct proportion to how much $$$ you cough up

  181. It is obvious he doesn’t get it. Although, I agree that kids should never join the SO – in fact, I argue that the SO should be abolished. But, if you are going to complain about it, at least get it right. Oh well.

  182. She was quoting John Wayne, not Ron Hubbard. (“The Cowboys”).

  183. Hey Marty,

    I still read your blog from time to time. I truly wish for your wife to prevail in court against Miscavige and that you two will find peace together.

    Best regards
    – Thilo

  184. An old Alter Boy

    As one old alter boy to another, I want to say this. this R6 talk is meaningless to me. And I think it misses the mark or its code for the obvious. Yes, people seeing a man on the cross have sympathy. Who wouldn’t. And Jesus’s teachings about the Father in Heaven, and the spirit which resides in all of us and our relationship to that Father, would resonate with people not because of any implant, weakness or dependence, but because its true. We are not our bodies. Teachings which embody truths, would resonate. There most likely was a historical Jesus. His teachings were of an inner life and ones relationship to their “Father” or higher powers. There may or may not have even been a crusifixion, but Paul needed one to relate the story of rising from the dead into the afterlife as he spread the “good news” of immortal life. Nothing to do with any implant, IMHO.

  185. martyrathbun09

    Hi. Wow. Been a while.

  186. Bit them in the ass when Mao rolled over Tibet. I do believe there are evil ones, be it 2 and a half pecent or 3 or 2. Bhuddist get blind sided easily.

  187. I saw myself in Marty

  188. The more the merrier Cat Daddy.

    I scored a feature documantary distributed by Universal. It has played world wide. The focus of it is in it’s name:Jesus in India

    There is great evidence of his sojourn along the Silk Road to the east.

    There are many corollaries to eastern practices and his teachings. I consider Christ in my lineage of teachers.

    That is why I comment on the delusional distortions in OT 3 regarding one of my teachers. It is a matter of principle. Someone needs to stand up for truth.

  189. Marildi wrote:

    Maybe you’re reading my comments through some kind of filter?

    You mean like a coffee filter???

    NO WONDER!!!


  190. I mostley refrain from praising her because I don’t really know if it helps.

    I Imagine Marty just loving her

    Well Mosey Rathbun this song is for you. (for Marty too)

  191. So what about the following:

    “For instance, the historic Jesus was not nearly the sainted figure [he] has been made out to be. In addition to being a lover of young boys and men, he was given to uncontrollable bursts of temper and hatred…. You have only to look at the history his teachings inspired to see where it all inevitably leads. It is historic fact and yet man still clings to the ideal, so deep and insidious is the biologic implanting.” — [LRH, Student Briefing, OT VIII, Series 1]

    Is that a valid quote or not?

    I also remember, in one taped lecture, Ron describing Jesus essentially as a buffoon who shows up in different parts of the galaxy (which he mispronounced guh-LAX-ee) from time to time. Basically, Ron claimed Christ was a keyed-out OT perhaps, or maybe just keyed-out clear.

    I do not recall any text or spoken words in which Ron spoke kindly of Christ, gave him the “particle” of admiration, or granted him beingness.

  192. OT 3 was a marketing gimmick.

    I believe in aliens, but out of neccecity, I am not that arogant that we humans are the onley intellegence in the Universe. But I am an Alien Realist. If Aliens were able to find us , they would have erradicate us from the face of the earth.

  193. Hi Lars,
    I think that my comment was right on the white line that runs down the middle of the road.
    Besides, whether it is the Truth Rundown, a Sec Check, Integrity Processing, a Confessional, or whatever label you want to give to this procedure, the purpose is the same – to free a being from their transgressions and to ALLOW THEM TO END CYCLE ON THEM. That cannot be accomplished without strict adherence to the Auditor’s Code, including the bans on invalidation and evaluation for the practitioner. Besides the auditor’s code, the element of FORGIVENESS is also necessary as an integral part of these and other processes for a person to be freed of his shackles, as Marty points out in this post. Without at least an attitude of understanding and forgiveness on the part of someone hearing a someone’s sins, it is very difficult for that person to forgive themselves, become free, end cycle, and start life anew. This is the way it is SUPPOSED to be, no matter what alterations have been practiced for however long. This is also one way to determine when a confessional has been “overdone”. It is a matter of applying the correct Tech correctly.
    While the early LRH references that Marty gives at the beginning of this post are real, so is the following LRH reference:

    …..” The acknowledgement that follows each confession in Scientology procedure is an assurance to the person that his confession has been heard.
    Such assurance helps him to end cycle on the bad things he has done and unsticks him from a preoccupation with his guilt over them to where he can then put his attention on constructive activities.
    That is the purpose of any Confessional.
    There is another element that helps the individual to accomplish this and that is forgiveness.
    Thus, at the end of a Confessional, when it has been fully completed, the Scientology auditor who has administered the Confessional must inform the person that he is forgiven for the sins he has just confessed and that he is cleared of these sins and free of them.
    The statement used is: ‘By the power invested in me, any overts and witholds you have fully and truthfully told me are forgiven by Scientologists.’
    If the pc can’t accept the forgiveness or feels bad, then either something has been missed and the auditor has not gotten all, or there have been other errors in the Confessional, such as withholds gotten off more than once, false reads, out-TRs, invalidation, evaluation, etc.
    The handling for this is to immediately repair the Confessional using the Confessional Repair List.” ……….
    Referenced from:

    Issue I
    Revised 26 July 1986

    Although this bulletin has been ignored, it has never been cancelled.
    The fact is that you and/or anyone else in the same situation are FORGIVEN by me and other Scientologists of good will for those things which you fully and truthfully confessed to any auditor.
    ….. even if the auditor “forgot” to remind you of the fact. 🙂
    So, I wish you clear sailing, my friend.

  194. “LRH while he is telling Scientologists a lie like the one where he was blinded and crippled in combat and cured himself with Dianetics. Hubbard knew he was never in combat.”

    I beg to differ:

  195. RK
    I have always thought that to forgive someone else was to allow myself to let go of whatever emotion was holding me hostage to whatever that person did to me/someone else. If I never forgive them just because that person is not sorry for what they did, then I hold on to the emotion that person’s deed instilled in me.

  196. I wish more were told from anyone who was with LRH, when he wrote The Way to Happiness.

    Precept 20 to me, is about all I have today still with me, and I like the clear simplicity of the Joy of Creation one page HCOB.

    Precept 20, if only Scientology were to review itself and reform itslel top to bottom using Precept 20, as “Command Intention” from now on.

  197. Thanks for the explanation. I didn’t know there was a real “truth rundown” ! I thought it was a joke phrase for people coming forward to admit what happened to them in the Church. I never heard of it when I was involved with the Church. How strange.

  198. FOTF2012, here are some excerpts from the Phoenix Lectures book, the chapter “Scientology, Its General Background” (I’ve replaced italics with all caps):
    “Messiah is from ‘messenger’, but he is somebody with information and Moses was such a one. And then Christ became such a one. He was a bringer of information. He never announced his sources. He spoke of them as coming from God. But they might just as well have come from the god talked about in the Hymn to the Dawn Child, who, by the way, is rather hard to distinguish from gods talked about later on. The god the Christians worshiped is certainly not the Hebrew god. He looks MUCH more like that one talked about in the Veda.…

    “Now here we have a great teacher in Moses. We have other Messiahs, and we then arrive with Christ, and the words of Christ were a lesson in compassion and they set a very fine example to the Western world, compared to what the Western world was doing at that moment.…

    “The use of Christianity was to produce a certain civilized state and many people would blacken Christianity by saying it reduced people down to a very low level indeed. This is not true. It took an entire world of slaves and it made free men out of them. This in itself was quite a gain. It took a world which worshiped exclusively force and matter and made it recognize that sooner or later one would have to turn to the fact that he had a soul.…

  199. I knew it! 😀

  200. THE truth. L. Ron Hubbard’s.

    Just razzin’ you, CD. It’s a good question you ask, and you would probably agree with me that truth is a relative thing. But I believe that there are some “relatively basic” truths that are being and have been expressed by wise men down the ages. And LRH was one of them. At least once upon a time.

  201. Yes what Marty said

  202. I think the fastest method of “forgiving” someone is to mete out whatever punishment is on your mind at the time of the incident and then you leave it behind you. Have the conversation right then. If you don’t then you will “carry a grudge”.

    If you are really angry at someone and you take it up on the spot, it usually blows most of your charge right there. Or if you are in a relationship and you get very angry about something that happened and you walk out the door and leave the person at that exact moment, as in, keep on walking and not looking back, you can be over it in a matter of hours.

    But if you aren’t going to confront someone and smack them or yell at them or curse them out, I don’t think you are really upset enough to carry a grudge against them. Of course, there are the people who screw you over and you find out afterwards and you have no recourse or no way to reach them and then you have to stew in it a bit, unless you just get a session. Or the people you can not fight back against or are not permitted to fight back against. That can charge you up into something you carry with you.

    Then, forgiveness is relative and it depends on who is assaulting you. If it is one of your kids usually there is not much they can do to get you steamed up for very long and it doesn’t matter what it is they have done. If it’s your elderly grandmother who rips you off you are going to laugh about it. If it’s the plumber you are going to take it a different way. If you are a woman and someone messes with your kids your power to haunt that person will become eternal. If you are a little woman and you smack a guy who is triple your size you aren’t going to feel bad about getting into a physical altercation. If it is someone smaller than you or more fragile you would not bother with any punishment at all. Distance would be the appropriate remedy.

    I have found grudges are nothing more than unhandled situations or unhandled justice actions. Otherwise why would you need to revisit it in session and do a contact with the incident or person to blow the charge? And “grudge” does not mean having a constant awareness of someone’s intention to harm you. That is just being aware of conditions.

    The best policy is to have the conversation “right now”. Sometimes these are split second decisions and sometimes these are critical decisions with consequences. But as soon a you decide, make the decision to say something or do something about it, or not, you are back at cause and out of effect of whatever happened anyway.

    This is why grade zero is such a mercy and one way in which it really impacts your life.

  203. Let me run that by the Interwebs

  204. Criss I really like your songs.

  205. Precept 20:

  206. Tony Dovolani, Auditor de luxe

  207. Something that indicates to me is that Jesus may have been an Essenic figure:

    The Essenes

    A Jewish ascetic sect, which was originally based upon sun-worshiping of Persian anchorites. Eventually it developed into a sect based on Jain yogis claiming to be able to perform miracles by living separately from the world and practicing extreme self-denial. One large Essenic community was in the Qumran region from 110 BC to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. It was vacant during the reign of Herd, 31 – 4 BC and especially after a large earthquake in 31 BC.

    It is believed among their prominent members were John the Baptist, Jesus and Simon Magus the founder of Gnosticism. One indication that Christ may have been an Essene was that He criticized the Scribes and Pharisees, but never the Essenes. It is, also, speculated that those following Christ were called Essenes before they were known as Christians.

    The Essenes possessed a hierarchy. The chief priest was known as Christos (Anointed One), “head of the whole Congregation of Israel. “The ordinary priests were called “sons of Aaron,” and there was another functionary known as the Messiah of Israel. He also was known as the Teacher of Righteousness and was to undergo and suffer physical abuse in atonement for the sins of the whole community, enduring “vindictive sentences of scourging and the terrors of painful sicknesses, and vengeance on his fleshly body.”

    The Essenic view of the world seemed to be one of predeterminism. Their eternal and omnipotent God not only knew everything that would occur in the world but also arranged for it to happen. Within this predestined arrangement there were two ways that involve a macrocosm and a microcosm. In God’s plan the two ways are the ways of light and darkness, or the ways of good and evilness. Quantities of light and darkness exist in the entire universe, angels and men. The opposite quantities are in constant battle. This battle between the two is macrocosmic, universal, as well as microcosmic, in men. God holds the duality in constant control and knows the eventual outcome.

    It was believed that after the final battle in this war of light against darkness that each angel and man would be judged according to his actions to these elements of light and darkness.

    The preferred explanation as to how sin entered the world for the Essenes at Qumran seemed not to be the sin of Adam (see Gen. 6:1- 4) but the acts of the fallen angels as recorded in the Book of Enoch. Heavenly angels saw daughters of men and mated with them. They and their offspring, the giants, introduced a superhuman quality of evil into human society. This, the Watcher, myth seemed to be more important in Qumran thought because it presupposes that evil existed in the heavenly realm before hand.

    Descriptions of Essenic life come from ancient writers such as Josephus, Pliny and others. They described how the Essenes viewed pleasures as evil, and saw continence and conquest of passions to be virtuous. Their writings have led to confusion concerning marriage, sex and children within the communities. They implied the Essenes abstained from marriage and sex but in many of the excavations of the Dead Sea Scrolls skeletons of women and children have been founds at almost all of the communities, even Qumran, leading investigators to speculate that the communities were not devoid of women and sex. The Qumran documents, the Rule of Congregation and Manual of Discipline, refer to women and children as part of the group. The Damascus Document specifies how children of members should be admitted by training them in the ways of the sect. Other theories are there were married members when the communities were formed, but marriage was abandoned when either partner died. Or, the women and children might have been visiting relatives in the communities and/or were travelers who died in the arid region.

    These religious anchorites issued strict sentences on those who broke rules of the community. Partial starvation was the most common punishment for infraction of communal rules. Some sentences lasted for as long as two or more years.

    The Essenes called themselves Therapeutae, “healers,” claiming that their austere lifestyle gave them the power to cast out demons of sickness and even to restore life of the dead. Considering this, Christ raising Lazarus from the dead seems a typical Essenic miracle. Others have wondered if such an event could not have occurred after Christ was lain in the tomb following his crucifixion. Essenes might have been waiting in the tomb to revive him.

    Due to the various spellings of “Essene” the word could also mean “pious one,” or “doers,” or “doers of the Torah” All of these meanings seem to have been derived from the word.

    It seems that Christ used the Essenic method of exorcism when driving out demons, especially in the Gadarene swine. Christ like the Essenes demanded the leading demon tell his name. Knowing the name had magical significance and gave control over the demons. (See Law of Names) Christ gave his sacred name only to his apostles by which they practiced exorcism, meaning only a few of the early Christians were given this power.

    All who joined the sect gave away or sold there worldly goods and gave the profits to the sect’s leaders. Whether some of the first communities were called Essenic or Christian the rules were harsh and stern. There was no relenting. This is seen in an event which occurred in one of the first communities. A husband and wife, Ananias and Sapphira, sold their property and gave the proceeds to the community. It was discovered the couple had kept some of the proceeds back for themselves without telling the community. When St. Peter questioned the husband about this and accused him of lying to the Holy Spirit the man fell dead. When Peter later questioned the wife about this, she too suffered the same fate upon hearing what had happened to her husband. The local authorities later arrested Peter and some of the group for murder, but they miraculously escaped. (Acts 5:2-10,18-19)

    This seems peculiar behavior among people who were preaching to the world about their loving, omniscient God, loving thy neighbor, forgiveness and doing good to others. The Holy Spirit was and is said to be the Spirit of God. If God is omniscient, or all knowing, then the man and wife could not lie to the Spirit, because the Spirit knew before hand what they would do.

    Regardless of their vows of poverty on earth, the Essenes shared grandiose visions of their rewards of wealth and power after the destruction of this world. The and the early Christians thought, as most Christians are expected to think today, this world is only a testing place to determine whether the immortal soul deserves the eternal reward or punishment of heaven or hell. The world or earth itself was not worth preserving or caring for because they believed in the end God would destroy this world and build a more perfect one. When being resurrected in this perfect world they believed they world live in glorified and perfect bodies. This seems to be a hope of attaining in an eternal future the things which one cannot attain in the present.

    As always the Essenes saw themselves as the holy ones in the brotherhood of “The Sons of Light.” Everyone else was evil, called “The Sons of Darkness,” or the “men of the Pit.” All were to participate in “The War of the Sons of Light with Sons of Darkness.”

    There are other stories concerning the Essenes. Whether true or not hardly anyone knows. Much would depend upon the reader and what he wants to believe. Some say Christ perceived his idea of hell from them. If true, this certainly calls to question Christ’s divinity; or, if he was divine, did he possess divine knowledge while on earth?

    Many in the Qumran survived the earthquake in 31 BC and said it was the sign of the Last Days and poured forth to preach their message. This was according to Josephus in 70 AD, who said many Messiahs and Christs emerged. So the end of the world was predicted long before it was recorded in the New Testament.

    Perhaps this shocks many Christians that claim their religion is the true religion and the Bible is the word of God. But when examining the Essenic teachings one sees established the foundation of Christianity. Within these teachings are the identical concepts of sin, the evilness of wordily and fleshly pleasures, the denial of self and sex, the war between the forces of good and evil, the powers of healing and exorcism, and finally the sacrifice of one in atonement for the sins of many. In brief, the entire Christian religion was laid out or foreshadowed within the doctrines of the Essenes, men who saw nature and life as evil.

    A major part of the world which professes Christianity stills lives under times of tribulation. It is not surprising Saint Augustine easily could suppress his Manichaenism on the people. The Church readily acclaimed this to be the peoples’ just way of life. However, many question this acclamation when looking at the world’s present state. All of the horrendous sufferings of the past seem not to have bettered the nature of humankind nor changed the ways of the world.

  208. Thanks for distributing that HCOB. More people need to know.

  209. Thank you for your own astute observations. I read the book that Marty is referencing here, and I found it quite moving to put it mildly. No, the book does not assert the divinity of Jesus Christ if readers of this blog are worried about that. The book is as Marty described it. It is well worth reading. Prior to reading the book, if I were told I could be granted one “super power,” I would have said something like the ability to turn anything into gold, or have unlimited money or have any beautiful woman I wanted or something like that. Now, I would say I’d like the ability to shine such a powerful love light, that all evil it shined upon would disappear and be replaced with love. What else would be more important?

  210. Mary Rathernotsay

    redemption. yes. one of my very favorite concepts. i do love it; mostly definitions 1 and 2 above.
    a universal theme and goal. like the ending of les miserables, or many great books, and films also.
    forgiveness, like somebody earlier mentioned, is good for one’s heart. it makes one feel freer. especially if one can first forgive oneself.
    but, redemption! redemption goes further than forgiveness.
    redemption is the great shiny brilliant conclusion that draws me ever onwards. hah! i got into scientology, among other paths, seeking redemption.
    redemption is a great beacon. whether it is really even necessary is another story. but how the word/concept/idea/promise of it pulls me onwards!
    it’s like a drug that way.
    as a quondam catholic/buddhist/scientologist/simplehuman it sure motivates!

  211. Very impressive looking write up, Margaret!

    I’ll look it over. Would you mind if I contacted you with questions if I should have any?

    So are you saying that when L Ron Hubbard told Scientologists that he was “blinded and crippled” during combat in World War II, this was the truth?

    And further, have you been able to prove that he actually did cure himself with Dianetics, too, as he had told Scientologists?


  212. What would you think of me if I told many people that you were wonderful Miraldi.
    And then told many people that you rape underaged children?

    What would you think?

  213. Thanks Espiritu. Great on including these refs. With
    all the confessionals I had to do it was in the majority
    of cases for investigations so no forgiveness given
    but with the preliminary “I am not auditing you”
    statement. In some cases I just told the C/S I would
    give the forgiveness statement and I never had a C/S
    reject it but of course those were very few times. So
    I do not think the above bulletins are ignored but
    the church has gotten into such a witch hunt and
    become so paranoid because of their overts on
    mankind that they cannot trust anyone and so the
    birth of all the misapplication of confessional tech
    (which actually is a beautiful tech when correctly
    Hi, I love sailing!

  214. I guess I have a different view of “politicians”. I see Stalin, Kim Jong Eun, Mao, etc as a “politicians”. Perhaps the worst end of the spectrum. And they could be viewed as “cult leaders” also. Anyway, I try to make a joke, and as usual you take off on an extreme polemic which seems to demonize LRH. Can’t you get yourself centered?

  215. The problem with such a wish is the presumptuousness that I am so free from evil that I can go around eradicating it in others. I am most assuredly not free from my own demons, despite hundreds of hours of security checking. Thus, I can see why people would hope for God (or a Higher Power or however one wishes to describe it) to look to very core of their soul, see all the good and evil residing there and cleanse them of their evil with a shining light of unconditional loving forgiveness.

  216. Hello Karen –

    Questions for you:

    Did you ever train on the Truth Rundown?

    Did you ever deliver it to any one?

    Did L Ron Hubbard write the Truth Rundown?


  217. Oh my god! 5 months of truth rundown, that poor girl.
    And the poor auditor and poor C/S, they knew it was
    not right and pure unadulterated exec C/Sing. And now
    they are very likely on the RPF. It is a lose/lose situation.
    Of course Leah is free and she can always go and see
    an indie if she wants. Saw her on the “dancing with the
    stars” and she looks like such a beautiful free spirit!

  218. Mary Rathernotsay

    You are right, Apprentice.
    ‘Tout comprendre, c’est tout pardonner’ is a useful French saying that states that, “to understand all is to forgive all”
    If one really knows the whole “back story”, so to speak, one is compelled to forgive those who he feels have wronged him. It’s all a matter of context.
    I have felt this many times, such as after 911, when suddenly small wrongs just did not feel like a big deal any more. Everything was put into a larger context, which made folks a whole lot more tolerant of their neighbors, generally speaking. Natural disasters seem to have the same effect.

  219. Mary Rathernotsay

    Siddhis. Unusual and unexplained abilities.
    What a famous yogi once called, “Glitter at the bottom of the ladder.”
    Meaning that if you become distracted from the true goal of yoga (meditation) by these flashy siddhis (powers) then you are missing out on ascending the ladder to enlightenment… you be the judge

  220. It’s almost as if compassion and empathy and such it is ‘understood’ in Scientology, since we bring it into the subject with us, but I think the whole notion of compassion, empathy have been buried under the orthodoxy of certain policies, particularly that you are responsible for the condition you are in, and if it doesn’t meet the standards set, then you are downstat and are, in a very real way, shunned. We were/are disabused of such foolish notions as rewarding down stats.

    I agree completely that spiritual truth by any viewpoint includes a sense of brotherhood, ‘for whom the bell tolls’ sort of thing. I also think – my opinion – is that it is the lack of empathy and compassion that are the true source of the destruction of the organizations, and eventually the subject. With such brotherly considerations, OSA would never exist.

    For the lack of a horse shoe, an empire was lost. kind of thing.

  221. In Judaism, the prayer that you are to say before going to bed each night is a prayer of forgiveness. This blew me away when I first saw it. I have personally found Judaism to fill many of the gaps in Scientology. In my experience, you have to try many things in Judaism before you can understand them. So I tried it. With my Scn background (strong on lower conditions, weak on forgiveness), it was not easy. I sought advice on HOW to forgive. The best advice I found was to make a list of everything you are grateful for. I did this each night and it really helped. Not only was it tone-raising, but I started to feel that I had abundance enough to blow off wrongful acts against me, especially as those who committed them are/were in far worse shape than I am. Truly, forgive them, for they know not what they do. It’s still not totally easy, but I am doing better with it.

  222. Brian, you did not write “R6”, you wrote “insanity, engrams, lies etc”, and that LRH attributed those as characteristics to Christianity. I am saying they have been characteristics of Christianity indeed, which in your post you seemed to deny.

    I find trying to dialog with you similar to trying to dialog with Al, who sometimes out of the blue, flames back with totally emotionally based responses in which he associates elements that are not actually associated at all, except through emotion. And totally non-sequitur to what I posted, besides.

    So I’m sorry I brought it up, I’ll quit now. Enjoy sparring with that straw man you call Valkov, he is clearly not me.

    Whether the R6 bank exists or not, insanity, engrams, and lies etc most certainly did, and do, exist in Christianity, and killed millions of people. If you want to debate the R6 bank you will have to do it with someone else, as I have no knowledge of it.

  223. Thanks for doing all that research!

    And Al, “LRH while he is telling Scientologists a lie like the one where he was blinded and crippled in combat and cured himself with Dianetics. Hubbard knew he was never in combat.”

    How do you KNOW this, to be able to assert this with such CERTAINTY? You were there and LRH wasn’t? Or, you were there and LRH was there, and so you saw he wasn’t injured? How?

    It comes across to me as a confabulation on your part, and beyond that, as a lie of your own, to assert it as a certain truth. You destroy your own credibility when you post things like that in no uncertain terms.

  224. “Forgiveness” in Scientology was and is used as a ploy. Hubbard designed it that way. Scientology was and still is, essentially, an intelligence collection operation, using disguises such as (usually well intentioned but duped) “ministers” or “auditors” to collect information.

  225. When Hubbard wrote TWTH “common sense moral code” booklet he was hiding out, while Mary Sue was on her way to federal prison. A judge had just ordered the release of thousands of pages of previously secret documents that, to put it mildly, placed L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology in a bad light.

    TWTH was a PR handling.

    There are better sources if someone is looking for moral inspiration or guidance.

  226. Marty, great on Leah now willing to help Mosey!
    That should really get the world’s attention on the
    crimes of the church.

  227. I dont believe forgiveness is the best action to take. For a start the forgivee may not consider he did anything wrong, in his eyes, for his dynamics, and so the forgivor has no as-isness. The best thing for the forgivor is to duplicate and understand the actions of the other person for an as isness to take place in his universe.
    In the case where an actual overt act has been committed against one, sure forgiveness is much better than hate or revenge etc. But in my mind its much better to understand or know or be able to be in the shoes of the person who committed the overt to get as-isness for oneself. In other words to be pan-determined.
    For those who will continue to attack oneself, there needs to be a physical universe handling. The Justice system covers that.
    Pan determinism is what I think LRH wanted for us, its the top of the scale, I can forgive, or I can understand it, as is it, and move on.
    In regard to the criminal, who has no responsibility, the right auditing actions get him to the point where he can be in his victims shoes, and ultimately take responsibility for his actions. Again pan determined, even if just for that victim.

  228. Thank you, Marildi.

  229. Understand.
    But why is it important for you to see yourself in someone in order to forgive? Is this really a condition for you?
    I am just curious. It doesn’t work for me in the same way, it seems.

  230. Hello Apprentice,

    With regards to the quote…there are no two individuals that will read it (perceive it) and have the same interpretation of it. If, though, one’s interpretation produces any manifestation of fear…for example, suspicion…then the perception was a misperception. It was a misperception because fear is an illusion albeit a very powerful and convincing one. And it only exists on the metaphorical ‘movie screen’. But, considering fear’s source (Me and Thee), it, of course, reflects the power of its source.

    Apprentice, you wrote: “…if we are talking about the same thing and the difference is only the approach…” I have no doubts that we are talking about the same thing and the difference is only the approach. Beyond the ‘movie screen,’ beyond all the unique individualities and personalities, beyond all the separation, beyond all the special relationships, beyond all the fragmentation, beyond all the hierarchies, beyond all the behavior, beyond all the nomenclature, beyond all the teachers, beyond all the techniques, beyond all the questions, beyond all the learning, beyond all the perception….the purpose is the same. We are all returning to the ‘Oneness’ that we never left. In other words, the separation from God never occurred. We only imagined that it did.

    Our attention is pretty much fixated on the movie screen at this time but as we awake we begin to hear a whirring sound and as we continue to awaken the whirring sound becomes louder and louder. The whirring sound is, of course, coming from the projector (the Mind) and once we begin to hear it, our fixation with the movie screen begins to lessen. Spiritual forgiveness recognizes that the movie screen isn’t real and there is no need for judgement or consequences. This is why the ‘quote’ begins with…”You’re not really there.” It states a fact. Then it continues…”If I think you are guilty or the cause of the problem, and if I made you up, then the imagined guilt and fear must be in me. Since the separation from God never occurred, I forgive ‘both’ of us for what we haven’t really done. Now there is only innocence, and I join with the Holy Spirit in peace.” There is Only Innocence and what is the Holy Spirit except for our God-Self?

    Apprentice, thank you very much for your reply. You gifted me with a wonderful lesson! You are appreciated.

  231. martyrathbun09

    This is one of the problems with Scientology. With so much emphasis on ‘causation’ and self, one has a difficult time with empathy and being anyone else. It is part of the glass ceiling I have discussed in many posts.

  232. martyrathbun09

    Part of its subtitle is “for believers and non-believers.”

  233. I don’t speak about causation. I speak about contribution and co-creation of your experience.
    It’s not “I created it all”.
    The glass ceiling beginns, when one gives up any responsibility about the things he runs into and says “I’ve been decieved and I had no contribution to it at all. I wasn’t even there, but now I am here.”

    I ask because CD said: “You can’t forgive truelly evil men or women, onley when you see yourself in someone you can forgive“.
    I say you can forgive if you see how it is your experience.

  234. After I was “converted” and became a Christian, I announced the fact to the Church of Scientology, but they were unhappy with my news. On enquiring why, I was told “they are trying to destroy us”. Surely this cannot be true I thought, so I visited a local church that I knew had had some dealings with the CofS.

    They were delighted that I was no longer part of the Church of Scientology but when I said I was trying to “get back in” they threw me out of their church. I tried to explain that before I became a Christian I was of Scientology, now I had “seen the light”, I wanted to be in it instead of of it. Jesus implied that we should “be in the world but not of it”

    Over the years I have come to believe that Christianity would indeed destroy Scientology if it could, because they identify it with the devil. It was only many years later as a Christian I was able to take on board that I had been hurt by Scientology/Scientologists and as such it was my Christian duty to forgive them rather than renounce them.

    This was a very significant realisation on my road to recovery from my experience with the CofS. I agree that the concept of forgiveness has no place in the tech. of Scientology, mores the pity. I’m guessing the other one was compassion. I would have said love but strictly speaking that is not a “human virtue” so we can’t expect that from Scientology – but a little compassion goes a long way.

    Some might find this site useful

  235. Karma? Or Magic?

    Tropical Storm Karen Forms in the Gulf of Mexico; Hurricane Watch in Effect From Fla. to La.

  236. Wonder if the tent will hold up?

  237. Oops – don’t know how I got this here. Should have been under Chuck Beatty’s comment.

  238. Precept 20:

  239. B.WBBB; Sorry you missed out on the good things Ron developed. But you find what you look for and agree with your own opinions. Maybe your next parents will raise you better, but then, you choose your own parents. Wait, that’s an opinion. I chose my parents and I’ve met others who chose theirs. The Tibetan Book of the Dead will explain that to you if you wish to learn.

  240. So you are comparing L Ron Hubbard to Joseph Stalin, Kim Jong Eun and Mao?

    Even I didn’t do that, Valkov. These guys murdered millions of people in cold blood. L Ron Hubbard never did that.

    I can’t believe you, Valkov “the Feral Russian”, are saying that L Ron Hubbard is like Joseph Stalin – even as a joke.



  241. Marty; I see what you’re saying. Fortunately, for me, I didn’t spend much time around SO people or in Sea Org Orgs. Most of the Public and staff members I worked with seemed to have a naturally good understanding, empathy and forgiveness of others. It seems to just come for most as they go up tone. Many SO members I met seemed to be enturbulated and PTS from their seniors, and actually received very little auditing. Ethics were more enforcement than case gain. Some project heads were just plain angry, but juniors were afraid to point it out, a genuine personal ethics violation in itself. Never be afraid to know what you know and say what you know. A FAILURE TO DO THIS MAY BE THE BIGGEST REASON FOR THE FOIBLES OF THE CHURCH. Courage, integrity, guts. More important than many realize. Thanks.

  242. Alanzo,
    I think the evidence shows that Hubbard was injured by something in the South Pacific. And in all likelihood, it was a result of combat. You can see the evidence in the Combat and Injury sections, and draw your own conclusions.
    As to whether he cured himself, I do think his eye injury was cured somehow. How it happened is anyone’s guess.
    And sure, if you’ve read the article, feel free to contact me if you have any questions or comments.

  243. Wow, Scott, what a scholarly post!

    Because of all you’ve studied, I would really appreciate your take on the following excerpt of a bulletin on the original OT VIII course (which can be found on various sites on the Internet). The first part of the first paragraph was already quoted on another post on this thread, but I’m also interested in what you make of the rest of it this excerpt:

    “For those of you whose Christian toes I may have stepped on, let me take the opportunity to disabuse you of some lovely myths. For instance, the historic Jesus was not nearly the sainted figure has been made out to be. In addition to being a lover of young boys and men, he was given to uncontrollable bursts of temper and hatred that belied the general message of love, understanding and other typical Marcab PR. You have only to look at the history his [Jesus’] teachings inspired to see where it all inevitably leads. It is historic fact and yet man still clings to the ideal, so deep and insidious is the biologic implanting.

    “It is a good joke that the Galactic Confederacy is associated with the Serpent in the Garden, the beast and other emissaries of the ‘Prince of Darkness’. Yet in certain passages and esoteric interpretations of the Bible (much of which has been taken out and effectively suppressed for centuries) as well as the Cabbalah, the truth reveals itself quite nicely for the clever and the ungullible.” (HCOB Student Briefing, OT VIII, Series 1)

  244. Auditing has a basis, his vast storylines not

  245. Forgiveness. Hmmm. Everyone’s case is different. I have never had much of a problem with forgiveness. It always seemed automatic with me and just not a problem. Maybe because I read a lot of Ron early and the principals of life were recognized and became a part of me. Maybe some of the more common case in others is just missing in me. (I do have my own problems) Maybe this has something to do with it: Clearing O/Ws, for me has always been fun and easy. I look at what I did, what was going on, why I did it, what I could have done differently and say “Ah, I see. fascinating how that affected me..” I look at others overts the same way.
    Every time I said “Damn, that was awful, I’ll never do that again” I became a little less able as a being. It has been a long time since I stole anything, but I certainly could if it were the right thing to do at the time and for the future. I am wise enough and understand enough to choose not to, but retain the power of choice over my actions. That one may not have enforced implants that prevent one from harming others is frightening to many. But if you threaten my daughters life, I don’t have case that would prevent me from separating you from your body. But if you steal my car, I have enough sense not to impose the death penalty for it. The power of choice, in present time, over my actions.
    The more errors one commits, and the more serious and harmful to me that they are, the more they need to be freed from their own past. The greater the overt, the more skill and affinity required by the auditor and the greater the joy seen in their face when it is released. But that doesn’t mean don’t defend yourself in the meantime. If a guy comes at you with a knife, flay him open. Expose others harmful acts. It is the best thing for you and them. In ages past, I’ve done some truly awful things. But some people with genuine love in their hearts have forgiven me and assisted me in improving.myself.
    But then, that’s just my take on it. Love,
    Your thoughts are welcome.

  246. Dear Mrs Libnish

    It warms my heart to meet a Christian on this forum. There is a saying in Christian circles “God and I are a majority”. I am a ChristianScientologist. That verse you quote is quite misunderstood by many. I found it helpful what ACIM says on the subject of forgiveness.
    Lesson 46 reads “God does not forgive for He has never condemned. The blameless cannot blame, and those who have accepted their innocence see nothing to forgive”.

    Ron made a point of excluding the word love from the technology of Scientology, reasoning that because this was to be an engineering approach to the investigation into human existence every word must have an exact definition and because the word love had no such definition he relegated it to the waste paper basket, in his own words “along with all the pulp novels that have been written on the subject”. That was his fatal mistake because without love, understanding is dangerous.

    Love and understanding.

  247. FOTF2012, thank you for that detailed reply. It has given me much to think about. This is interesting. In the CoS, you cannot ask for clarification and discuss until you achieve your own understanding. You are referred back to books, and either understand or else pick up the desired and accepted understanding from the environment. The reason I say this is it has to do with control of comm lines. They are controlled utterly in the CoS. And it knows no real forgiveness. To forgive would also be to put it behind you, and they don’t let you do that.

    Budhism has developed further, as has Christianity. Both have seen and welcomed scholars and teachers. With only one source and no new thoughts, we live in a spiritual incest. And nature itself will make sure it dies. That is the end that lies in store for “pure” source.

    You are right about putting oneself in another’s shoes or seeing one has contributed as much. But this is not always the case. What about an abused child? Here we are: there are no absolutes.

    I will have to mull over what you and others wrote some more. I am earnestly struggling with forgivness and the freedom I jope to obtain through it. Thank you for your help.

  248. Hi Eric,

    Thanks for your views. That’s a very intersting angle, that forgiveness releases both parties. Yes, maybe that is it’s true power. AnonDog worded it better further on down, but I believe forgiveness is letting go. If I forgive, I let go. If I let go, I have forgiven.

    I see how I could even turn that forgiveness into a help flow. But you say here, the perpetrator feels bad. What if they don’t? I confronted a lady about something she did to me in the cadet org and she didn’t even remember the incident. In fact, she denied it, claiming she would never do something like that and it must have been someone else. So how do I forgive her? When you forgive someone, you must really mean it, right? Further down I asked, how do you know when forgiveness is real if you are all numb inside?

    Lots of questions and some very good answers. Thank you for yours 🙂

    I hope I can piece together an answer for me. I want to put this whole Scientology experience behind me but can’t seem to let it go.


  249. Bob, I think you really hit on something, which I got as follows: What each individual “brings with him” when he gets into Scientology is probably the primary factor in determining what they take away. LRH basically said this in AP&A: “Postulates, whenever made, are responsible for the condition of the preclear, bad or good.”

    And the Buddha essentially said the same: “All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become.”

    LRH even gave credence to the concept of “for whom the bell tolls,” which he quoted in the definition of responsibility in AP&A. But in spite of his great discoveries and insights, LRH “brought with him” his own postulates and thoughts (his baggage, as they say) – and that would explain why he faltered when it came to living his own great insights. All this would align with the concept of karma too, I would say.

    Here’s another great translation of the Buddha, which also implies how much we are all connected: “We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world.”

    I have been been perplexed about what in the world happened to LRH as the years went on, and this line of thought you put me onto seems to explain it. Thanks so much for the inspiration!

  250. Fair enough.

  251. O my made me think of Battlefield Earth

  252. Sometimes people do things with good intention that are really harmfull. But there are those who do harmfull things because it is their nature.

  253. Us Ferals are capable of just about anything, right? Even, occassionally, duplication.

  254. My dear friend. If you can see into your own soul and isolate the good and the evil, realize that at some level you are powerless over it, and then humbly ask whatever it is that you conceive is greater than yourself ,in the spiritual realm, for help in rising above it ,or forgiveness for even having such thoughts or impulses in your make-up, you most assuredly cannot be harmed and will not err. Your like a point in the center of a circle, well balanced and protected on all sides. Not a bad place to be.

  255. Hi Scott. I have a book recommendation for you. The Essene Jesus, by Edmond Bordeaux Székely. Written in 1977. He was a linguist and his translations put an interesting spin on a lot of areas covered in your write-up. Its a short book, fast read. I think you would enjoy it.

  256. Yes. Some people gravitate themselves deep into states of being, hard to grasp. I get that. That makes it hard to see us in them.

  257. Scott Campbell

    Hi Vicar,

    The main body of content beyond the first sentence of that post is not mine. It is merely a good summary of what I have studied regarding the subject of Jesus and the Essenes.

    I’ve commented before on the OTVIII stuff you mention above but to speculate on the truth of it at this stage of my enlightenment would be a disservice to others seeking the truth.

  258. Scott Campbell

    Thanks Vicar! That write-up is not mine, btw. I like fast reads because I read so much and am so busy!

  259. Okay. I didn’t necessarily mean to ask your opinion about the truth of it, just how you saw it in the context of religious history, since you apparently have studied the subject a good bit. Personally, I’ve come to believe that sharing knowledge and even opinions, at any stage of enlightenment, is usually helpful rather than being a disservice. But no problem – what you say can certainly be the case too. That’s why LRH developed false data stripping. 🙂

  260. Well, I don’t know if a woman can commit rape, but I get your point. However, being a “lover of young boys and men” doesn’t exactly equate to “rape of underaged children.”

    Nevertheless, I’m glad you asked, because I’ve been wondering what to make of LRH’s statement that Jesus was a lover of young boys and men. I did some internet research and found out, for one thing, that attitudes about homosexuality have varied a lot in the course of history, and in many periods of time it was quite common and accepted for men to have young boys and other men as lovers. Apparently, there have been many cultures with no bias on it.

    What was even more surprising was that LRH isn’t the only one who has suggested Jesus was a homosexual. See the Wikipedia article titled “Sexuality of Jesus”:

    Also, here’s an excerpt from an article written by an Anglican priest titled “Was Jesus Gay? Probably”:

    “I preached on Good Friday that Jesus’s intimacy with John suggested he was gay as I felt deeply it had to be addressed…

    “After much reflection and with certainly no wish to shock, I felt I was left with no option but to suggest, for the first time in half a century of my Anglican priesthood, that Jesus may well have been homosexual. Had he been devoid of sexuality, he would not have been truly human. To believe that would be heretical.

    “Heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual: Jesus could have been any of these. There can be no certainty which. The homosexual option simply seems the most likely. The intimate relationship with the beloved disciple points in that direction. It would be so interpreted in any person today. Although there is no rabbinic tradition of celibacy, Jesus could well have chosen to refrain from sexual activity, whether he was gay or not. Many Christians will wish to assume it, but I see no theological need to. The physical expression of faithful love is godly. To suggest otherwise is to buy into a kind of puritanism that has long tainted the churches.”

  261. one of those who see

    Excellent comment! A lot of truth there. Thank you!

  262. People can be as useless as they want, I meant especcially people who take pleasure in harming others on a sadistic level.

  263. oops I mis-read, Yes I can not identify with for instance with the man who killed a politicus in my country for having opinions he did not share.

  264. Scientology alsoo redifines words, Hubbard mentions how that works in the beginning of a lecture he gave that alsoo had the US constitution as a subject.

    “don’t change the word, change the definition of the word”

    L Ron Hubbard

  265. Cat Daddy, among other things, two things that I never had to have a debate with myself about regarding the existence of were past lives and ETs. You say you are an ‘Alien Realist’…I guess I could refer to myself a being the same but only with a differing interpretation/expectation than the one you mention. Speaking of aliens (the off earth kind) I’m including a fun video for you. BTW, have you ever heard of the book, Bringer of the Dawn by Barbara Marciniak? It’s a very interesting story she shares. I didn’t read it but I listened to it on YT (it’s almost three hrs long).

  266. We are talking about Ron’s confidential data and it being true or not. simple

  267. Not whether Christianity as a religion is bad, negative etc. The question is: is the cause of that craziness what Ron said? And is Ron’s view of Christ instrumental in his attitude on forgiveness? I apologize if I was not clear 🙂

  268. jonsty, I really enjoyed reading your comment. Thank you.

    You write…”All of the Eastern religions professed the same idea of forgiveness, but even more importantly, they argued for and professed the ideas that as soon as one creates a “separateness” from self and others, problems arise.” Ain’t that the truth!

    And yeah, and so called ‘religion’ that creates a separateness (and it seems that there’s not many that don’t fall into that trap) is doomed. COS just followed the herd on that one.

    I have been observing that the more I am able to view ‘others’ as being a reflection of myself, and the more I am able to forgive ‘others’ for doing anything that I am interpreting as being disruptive to my peace…my life experience just continues to get better and better. Of course, if ‘others’ that I perceive are indeed a reflection of me then it would follow that as I forgive another, I simultaneously forgive myself. The idea of ‘others’ is, I think, an efficacious means for me to view my unconscious fears and then through forgiving ‘others’ who I’m actually forgiving is myself (healing myself). In other words, not being able to access the contents of my unconscious, I project my unconscious onto what seems to be outside of myself. Thus, what seems to exist ‘outside’ of myself is actually within self.

  269. Valkov, google it. This is key to the discussion

  270. Hi Margaret,

    The Foundation for A Course in Miracles (a course, that is said by the scribe that wrote it down, to have been dictated by to her by Jesus) has an extensive Q&A page. I will include a link to the topic index. If you’re interested, you can go to this index and scroll down the list on the lift to the heading Jesus. A question included under that heading is titled: “anger in the temple.” This question pertains to the excerpt from John that you cited in your comment.

  271. Hi Letting Go, I have enjoyed reading your comments and the discussion they have inspired. So many wonderful lessons are being shared here.

    I have never been one that can sustain a grudge. And, oddly enough, for quite sometime, I had this upside down idea that my not being able to hold onto a grudge against another was a weakness I had. There were many times that I felt I was actually obligated to maintain an active grudge against another for some ‘wrongdoing’ that had been done to myself, a family member, a friend or a group I was connected to. But, I tell you, I just couldn’t do it. Still can’t. And whenever I have appeared to be doing so it has always been a pretense. Thankfully, I no longer feel any obligation to hold a grudge against anyone or anything neither for myself or on someone else’s behalf. And I don’t. However, that said, I am constantly having grudges, that I have been unconscious of, surfacing for me to forgive and let go. But…my application of forgiveness, I must say, is a work in progress.

    Following are three excerpts from A Course in Miracles that I want to share with you. Forgiveness, as expressed in these excerpts, has helped me to get my wits around forgiveness and experience marked success in its application.

    “Forgiveness is acquired. It is not inherent in a mind which cannot sin. As sin was an idea you taught yourself, forgiveness must be learned by you as well, but from a Teacher other than yourself, who represents the other Self in you. Through Him you learn how to forgive the self you think you made, and let it disappear. Thus you return your mind as one to Him Who is your Self, and Who can never sin.”

    “Forgiveness recognizes what you thought your brother did to you has not occurred. It does not pardon sins and make them real. It sees there was no sin. And in that view are all your sins forgiven. What is sin, except a false idea about God’s Son? Forgiveness merely sees its falsity, and therefore lets it go. What then is free to take its place is now the Will of God.”

    “Forgiveness, on the other hand, is still, and quietly does nothing. It offends no aspect of reality, nor seeks to twist it to appearances it likes. It merely looks, and waits, and judges not. He who would not forgive must judge, for he must justify his failure to forgive. But he who would forgive himself must learn to welcome truth exactly as it is.”

    Letting Go, we are all on a journey that never was. The journey that never was ends extremely well for each and every one of us. Forgiveness is one of those viable illusions that helps us return to where we never left.

    I am most grateful for your generosity!

  272. Globetrotter, that was a profound articulation! Thank you so much for sharing it.

  273. Alanzo, literally, I am a reflection of YOU and YOU are a reflection of ME. And that’s just too cool for words! 🙂

  274. I wholeheartedly agree with you marilidi….that was an Awesome comment by Letting Go! I especially like this…”It doesn’t matter what we say, pretend. What we believe shines through.”

  275. Me too. 🙂

  276. Thanks Monte. I read the section you referred to, and can see that the author doesn’t seem to believe that Jesus could actually get angry. My view is that Jesus was a pretty advanced soul but was still human, and was still capable of human emotions.

  277. The Duke (john Wayne) was an active member of a spiritual fraternity, the Freemasons. I doubt that he was adverse to saying he was sorry in real life. Just for the record.

  278. Interesting. The ‘us vs them’ and ‘we have the only answers’ thinking you mention has been very much identified as being hallmarks of cults.

  279. I consider Ron’s imaginary memory or perception of Christ up there with Psyches coming from the planet Farsec. And as clear and real as all psyches are murdering sex offenders.

    I’m not quite sure how you can square these views from Ron. But it, in my view, takes a lot of faith. A lot of faith.

  280. Brian, where did I say I could “square these views” you stated? You can’t just assume that just because someone has something positive to say about Scientology or LRH that they thus would have no criticism of any kind. When you do so, it makes you come across as compulsively wanting to repeat the outpoints with little or no provocation.

    In any case, you changed the subject from the one in your last comment and my reply to it.

  281. Hi Margret! I hope this reply finds you.

    I thought that, being you were raised largely in a Christian church and family, this might be of some interest to you. I have recently both read and listened to a book titled Christ Returns, Speaks His Truth. The book is composed of 9 letters and 16 articles written by Jesus via an anonymous woman that he refers to as being ‘the recorder.” In letter 3 Jesus talks about what really happened at the sermon on the mount, his walking on water, what happened in the temple with the money lenders, the last supper, his crucifixion and his resurrection. Here’s a link to letter 3:

  282. Thanks for sharing this …its use full…Reiki Healing

  283. It was a helpful post. Thanks…Reiki Healing

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s