Reference: Pursuit of Understanding
2. Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse
This book is one of my favorite novels of all time; it is right up there with the likes of East of Eden and To Kill a Mockingbird. I first read Siddhartha when I was seventeen years old. It was an important part of my own spiritual journey then and has served the same purpose more recently.
Having read it again this year, I wondered how on earth I could have spent twenty-seven years effectively donning a yellow robe and devoting my life to a cult. Alas, perhaps that path served the same purpose as Siddhartha’s several decade journey.
During his early spiritual seeking years, Siddhartha comes into contact with the Buddha, referred to as the Glorious One. Siddhartha can find nothing wrong with the Glorious One or his fledgling philosophy and practice. But something holds Siddhartha back from donning the yellow robe of devotees even when the Glorious One pitches his way directly to Siddhartha. His fellow seeker and friend Govinda opts for the robes.
Hesse provides a concise, accurate summation of the Buddha’s teachings and the Vedic scripture that precedes and influences their origination. He has Siddhartha offer no criticism of them because he finds no fault with them. But as his own life plays out, in many ways paralleling the journey of the Buddha’s own life, he comes to his own realization of the goal of the Buddha’s path. Not through practice, but instead through living.
In a sublime, lyrical sort of manner Hesse demonstrates how Govinda, who chose to don the robes when Siddhartha declined, and who spent his life as a dedicated follower of the Glorious One, could never attain that realization. While Govinda attained a high level of awareness and exemplary conduct, it was precisely because Govinda chose to follow and devote himself to a teacher that made enlightenment unattainable.
One moral of the story is that one doesn’t attain to enlightenment by simply following an enlightened one’s path. Perhaps even, the very act of becoming a devoted follower ultimately bars the path.
At some point, if one wants to transcend, one is going to have to blaze some trail on his own.
Yep, so true. It is similiar to growing up. At one point you leave home and parents and start to live life on your own and make decisions on your own and take responsibility for your decisions.
To find your own “path” or truth is not a group activity. That’s what I realized after leaving the group/cult/whatever … It is a very personal thing.
good one. In reading some Vedanta writings, I was quite moved by a particular viewpoint and quote. In it, Vivekenanda noted that in one’s search for spiritual enlightenment that initially one often may need help from a guru or teacher, but that ultimately each of us have to move out and onto our own path. In fact, he worded it as managing and creating one’s own religion…religion behind defined as search for truth and spiritual realization. In other words, in the end there are millions of “religions.”
I find this to be true as in the end, we all have to take responsibility for our own creation and truths…as it should be. Interestingly enough, once I got this viewpoint, I also lost the attitude of blame…how can one blame, it has been your path all along.
Nice one, Jonsty. 🙂
Now that makes it very clear and makes a lot of sense.
I read this book when I was 16. It changed my life also. It set my intention for this life. Jonathan Livingston Seagull was read around the same time.
These two books and an experience I had called samadhi when I was 16 forged this lifes purpose.
The experience of samadhi (ecstatic oneness with spirit) happened on my third day of experimenting with meditation. It was a kind of beginners luck. The whole universe, including my body disappreared and what was left was an ocean of golden light. The causeless joy I expereienced was overwhelming. I had no mind or body. But 360 degrees. Up down in all directions was the cosmic fabric of light, gold light. I was overwhelmed with ecstacy. There is no experience in the body that holds a candle to that experience.
I then went on a journey to stabalize that state.
But the book Siddhartha was the starting gun for all my experiences.
Thank you Herman Hess. You uplifted many of the 60s generation
Agree. I think that by becoming a practician of a valuable philosophy one then takes on the valence-game and purpose of the leader, thus obscuring one’s own game and purposes. Is like diluting oneself into another’s life rather than create and live yours.
Siddhartha was the first book that set me on my spiritual journey. I read it in college. A fabulous, easy read.
So very true, that when you have arrived at the end of someone else’s bridge, you are on your own path. By all means, use the path laid out by another as long as you ‘progress’ towards your goals, but there is a point where the collective experience no longer is relevant, and to continue being guided by that experience IS the brick on the road.
That is a wonderful book; everyone I knew back then read it many times, along with Johnathon Livingston Seagull, and many others. There was a spiritual explosion in those days, united by the music.
One of my favorite books these days is ‘Epictetus, The Art of Living’, which you can carry along in your back pocket, or purse, and read a bit every day and watch as those circumstances pop up around you. It is a very calming and rewarding experience. I guarantee everyone who reads it will be able to stand back and relax.
“If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.”
A footnote – Pope Francis is on a roll lately. His recent speech has something beautiful to say about Faith vs. Ideology.
I agree. In the beginning, we are children in need of guidance, but ultimately we need to find our own path , to take responsibility for our own lives.
Knowledge is Free
LRH said as much himself: “You have to walk that last mile yourself. No one can walk it for you.” Great minds.
Fortunately, well before Comon Core Crap was ever even conceived, “Siddhartha” was required High School reading.
That is a powerful blog post resonating on many levels.
As long as I was a follower of Hubbard’s, bound never to disagree with him, committed always to uphold him as Source who was forever right, and eternally dependent on him for my eternal salvation, how could I possibly be free?
But regarding teachers: the good ones lead you along the line of your own natural development. They don’t seek to make a clone of themselves. They seek to help the student develope along the lines of their own natural tendencies.
Good teachers do exist. But it is very personal and chosen freely.
Can you direct me to the lecture or text it is from. I would be obliged.
“one is going to have to blaze some trail on his own.” Perhaps some of the wisest words printed on this site. But for the majority, that is quite impossible in their current state and situation. I have mentioned before that all existing tech, knowledge, practice I’ve seen so far is only capable of and intended to getting one started, get one up to walking on his own.
When I received my Black Belt in Korean martial arts, the first thing my teacher said was “Now you are a beginner.” But I could not have begun without his help.
Reach out and get that knowledge and use it and sort it out for yourself. The ability to sort it out for yourself wisely just may be the actual goal.
We are all trail blazers to infinity and beyond.
It is exciting to see so many people carving out their own paths of discovery.
It truly is the only way.
You can not teach others “what” to think or see. Only how to think or see and set them off to discover the world.
I am gonna get this book and read it!
Thank you for posting that. This pope is the first time I have liked Roman Catholicism or appreciated what I heard coming from the Vatican. He is so straightforward, down to earth, austere. He is returning the faith and spirit to Christianity – at least that what it feels like to me. I don’t understand the rites or services of RC, but I feel he speaks across all faiths. A great man.
Hiking in the hills,knowing that the earth under my feet, the sky, the sun, the trees, the butterflies, the people passing me in each direction, and the woman by my side, are all part of me and I part of them, is for me enlightenment and freedom. Siddhartha was an old friend, and I too had forgotten its moral. Thanks Marty
“One moral of the story is that one doesn’t attain to enlightenment by simply following an enlightened one’s path. Perhaps even, the very act of becoming a devoted follower ultimately bars the path.”
-Marty Rathbun, october 21, 2013
Note; Marty please consider not publishing this note.
Having a Catholic cultural background, I huggle this pope to bits. He reminds me of my grandmother
He my new Homie
It is a great book. In fact, much of the background and part of the character development was taken from the “lives of the Buddha” which were being translated in Germany at the time. Having read the Jataka first, I could spot most of the imagery. It is a very powerful scene when he meets the Buddha and basically rejects him. The only questions raised in my mind were minor. First, the Buddha probably would have tried a little harder to persuade Siddhartha. The Buddha was known for making the “right” statement to a seeker of truth. It goes with the turf. Second, the Buddha never would have met him unless he had a very strong conviction that he(Siddhartha) could have been persuaded. There are other minor issues such as Siddhartha’s lack of “right view”. The Buddha would have avoided “wrong view”, and it is hard to imagine the meeting. However, the Buddha was known for allowing seekers to find their own path. The monks I know today are very tolerant and never try to convert anyone. It is one feature of Buddhism which I really like – we actually encourage people to seek their path. I once met a young lady at our Vihara who just could not get even one idea from Buddhism. I saw her one day and she looked very bright. I asked about it. She told me and I encouraged her to follow that path.
George M. White
Thanks. Message forwarded.
“Reasons to live will breath and hope and chase and love for you and you and you…” – Yes Revealing Science of God
The title track from this album was inspired by that book as well.
I agree that following any teacher and giving up your own reality is a trap and a way to mess yourself up.
I thought LRH said it well in an article he wrote called ~The Code Of Behavior. It’s in R&D series 9.
Quote : “ Be your own advisor, keep your own councel and select your own decisions. And that’s a heck of a thing, isn’t it? You’re educated from childhood to listen to the opinions of others. To you they are worth nothing because only you have data enough to evaluate you and your actions. Only you have enough data. You can sit down and communicate for days, weeks, months, to a person and not even then give him all the data you have about you. So go around and get advice if you want to. It’s not going to be good advice because it is not based on all the facts. Only you have those facts about you. So you only get along well if you’re your own advisor. If you take counsel with yourself about what’s right and what’s wrong, you can take counsel with others in order to find out if your data agrees with theirs, or what between you can you pool as data which makes a new conclusion.” end of quote. LRH
This is one of my favorite LRH references as it expands on the Code of Honor and gives more inight into each point of it.
Reach out to theosismanides
You can have a group where everybody is other determined but still loves you
Agreed. The church is very much a controlled setting. Like being a lab rat. Spoon fed enlightenment. Crashing upwards, the dark night of the soul, hitting bottom or many other similar ways to move on up are not achieved by following a script.
thank you both
I don’t know one person who has left Scientology that is not happier and feels free….The fear others have about leaving is the only thing holding them back from really starting to live…someday they will because it is inherent in all of us to be happier…it’s how we’re wired.
My mother told me the same thing.
Sorry…… my bad 😉
Yes that is Wisdom. That part of Hubbards writing we will take into the furure my friend
“Freedom is for honest people. No man who is not himself honest can be free – he is his own trap.”
L. Ron Hubbard
“Today you are You, that is truer than true. There is no one alive who is Youer than You.”
― Dr. Seuss, Happy Birthday to You!
Dan, don’t forget the Reverend Mr. Black. He said something similar.
You have to build your own bridge. “For God’s sake build a
Marty, I too (after the fact) wondered how I could have spent so many years wearing the ‘yellow robe’ and devoting myself to a cult and an image. Eventually, though, I came to recognize that the experience was exactly what I needed when I needed it and I am much grateful for it.
Here’s what appears to be a young girl who sounds as if she has a pretty solid idea about what path she’s on and how it will unfold.
ExRPFer: Excellent post. My only advice, and one that I believe you may agree with, is seek not sloth. Be diligent and energetic in the path you choose. As the great Yoda once said,”Think not, only DO.”
Marty moderate this out please
“So very true, that when you have arrived at the end of someone else’s bridge, you are on your own path. By all means, use the path laid out by another as long as you ‘progress’ towards your goals, but there is a point where the collective experience no longer is relevant, and to continue being guided by that experience IS the brick on the road.” A splendid articulation Bob! Thank you.
Personally, I have found the paths (the one’s I am guided to) laid out by another, can be most efficacious ‘rungs on a ladder.’
Bob, this statement of yours…”There was a spiritual explosion in those days, united by the music.” prompted me to go to one of my favorite books, Return of the Bird Tribes by Ken Carey and seek out a particular passage(s) in the Afterword. See below…
“Implanted then into the structure of our emotional bodies were nonverbal, time-released melodies that would help us to awaken even when conscious understanding was far from present. A number of us were musically commissioned and given the role of introducing the trigger melodies.
“These melodies began being delivered in the 1960s through songs that – though often rather nonsensical on the surface – pulsed with powerful emotional messages of love, hope and joy. Through music many of the sleeping began to stir. The first rays of dawn were heard on the radio before many even realized that there was a sky to look to.”
“The challenge before us is to reawaken ourselves and then to join with others to show through our example the beauty and power of the new way. We can leave behind the twilight stage that gave room for sleepy imagination to postulate that the awakening revolved around some guru or human organization, no matter how beautiful or enlightened. We are called to organize in this time, not around leaders, ideologies or belief systems, but around love: love for God, love for one another and love for our sacred world.”
Moderate what out?
Johney Cash is worth a million L Ron Hubbards and than some
You better love your wife or family
Brian, I think you’ll appreciate what is stated in this excerpt from A Course in Miracles intro of the Teacher’s manual.
“The role of teaching and learning is actually reversed in the thinking of the world. The reversal is characteristic. It seems as if the teacher and the learner are separated, the teacher giving something to the learner rather than to himself. Further, the act of teaching is regarded as a special activity, in which one engages only a relatively small proportion of one’s time. The course, on the other hand, emphasizes that to teach is to learn, so that teacher and learner are the same. It also emphasizes that teaching is a constant process; it goes on every moment of the day, and continues into sleeping thoughts as well.
“To teach is to demonstrate. There are only two thought systems, and you demonstrate that you believe one or the other is true all the time. From your demonstration others learn, and so do you. The question is not whether you will teach, for in that there is no choice. The purpose of the course might be said to provide you with a means of choosing what you want to teach on the basis of what you want to learn. You cannot give to someone else, but only to yourself, and this you learn through teaching. Teaching is but a call to witnesses to attest to what you believe. It is a method of conversion. This is not done by words alone. Any situation must be to you a chance to teach others what you are, and what they are to you. No more than that, but also never less.”
If interested…there’s three more paragraphs.
Damn L Ron Hubbard is back
Kool Aid drinkers find it *impossible* to click “DE-SELECT GURU” in their mind.
Literally believing that RTC thugs, OSA thugs and MAA thugs have the right and power over their spiritual advancement and immortality !
(NO OTS) , wich I do believe but maybe is still not apropriate for your recent post about Siddharta
Yes, Siddhartha is a brilliant book; maybe Hesse was thinking of Sudhana’s quest in the Gaṇḍavyūha sutra among other Buddhist classics. I recommend Hesse’s other novels too – they have a common theme of a naive person seeking experience and enlightenment (through the world, intellectual study, religion or whatever) and arriving back at a state of simplicity but on a higher level of wisdom. Rather like theta colliding with mest then withdrawing again with lessons learned.
In particular, Magister Ludi (aka The Glass Bead Game), where a student enters a highly formal academic heirarchy that occupies a whole country. It claims to hold the world’s whole heritage of knowledge and culture, and even has a secret political arm. He rises to the highest position of achievement and authority, then finds that his only way forward is to resign and walk away with just the clothes on his back.
See that was my “reactive”mind, I expecting onley the bad because of
Maybe let it linger a biy untill you make a new post.
Here you go CD, with the context 😉 From PDC-35 The D.E.I. Scale 11.12.52:
“And when it comes to… when it comes to any of these techniques, any of these techniques, they… they add up all the way up – something I talked to you about before, time and time again – uh… freedom. Freedom.
“And that freedom is lots of space and ability to use it. That’s freedom – that’s all. That’s all freedom is. It’s… it’s exactly what it says it is. It is the most idiotically literal thing imaginable – freedom. Lots of space and the ability to use it.
“And then complete freedom is above the level of not needing space. And not even having to agree. That’s… that is above the level of freedom. That is cause itself. And you never saw cause itself ever being worried.
“It… Prime Cause has nothing which could enslave it, except itself. Just like there’s really nobody ever going to really pick up this preclear and carry him out of this universe. Nobody’s ever going to do that. He can put boots on; he’ll still have that last mile he has to walk himself.”
anonycat is a wonderful person. every little bit helps.
Cat D: Clean hands, a happy heart.
Thanks for the info, Marty, I didn’t know about that book. I totally agree on the idea of having to walk the path ourselves, especially as we are the ones who mapped it out with all its pitfalls to encounter. However, recently I have had a realization of my purpose in all this, and I don’t think I will need to go traveling down the highways of “unknow” in order “to find out” anymore. The four years since waking up have been amazing in retrospect, and I’ve been happy to observe that you have done so much traveling yourself.
Many of life’s spiritual or religious “paths” have an uncanny parallel with the one we all experienced in our formative years.
There is a fairly well accepted theory in academic circles that the reason humans have through out history been so ready to accept the concept of an all powerful creator of life is that for the first few years of our life we experienced exactly that with our mother.
It’s a very interesting subject so often overlooked in the pursuit of spiritual enlightenment.
That’s wisdom. I do have to point out that was “early 50’s Ron” when LRH still believed that in education, one had the right to reject any datum (without negative blowback from the teacher) and that there was not only ONE truth, ONE way and ONE source (try reading a Herman Hesse book in the ethics waiting room). I’ll make another comment later on about how LRH was a great source of wisdom for me personally, but there comes a point when one has to decide to become NOT in thrall to one source of wisdom and to start discovering his/her own truth (just like 1950s Ron encouraged in 8-8008).
Think I read it back in high school (but that was about 1968). So just downloaded it to the kindle and will read it again from my current viewpoint and experience.
I very much agree with your conclusion Marty. I do have to say of course, that going to this book is in itself being open to an exterior source of wisdom. I think we probably all agree there is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking wisdom from great philosophers or just from anyone who can share with you their experience and conclusions about life. One is obviously coming to your website or to Herman Hesse’s book to seek some knowledge or wisdom from you or Mr. Hesse.
But in applying good old “infinity valued logic” (one of my favorite LRH datums) there is a relative point where one stops learning and thinking and coming to one’s own conclusion about the data one is learning from another and becomes in thrall to that teacher and can only think by reference to what THAT source says is truth. This happens to almost everyone who is involved in Scientology. This is the person who ALWAYS has to quote LRH to make a “valid point”, who can NEVER disagree with anything LRH has ever said (he is “source” and it is ALWAYS your misunderstood).
I have gotten tremendous amounts of wisdom from my training and processing, but I do truly understand that to continue on my path, for ME, there had to be a point where I started coming to my own conclusions and postulating my own wisdom (and yes, that for sure included DISAGREEING with a number of things L. Ron Hubbard said). If you cannot find ANYTHING Ron said that you disagree with or consider not the truth , are you really becoming free as a source point of your OWN postulates, viewpoints and opinions?
Buddhism never seems to notice that the Buddha, before the big celebrity makeover, did something significant …
He FIRED all his teachers.
Nice Monte. Also I like the idea-to teach by example. There is a statement assigned to St. Francis that is not verified but non the less is instructive of teaching,” By all means preach the gospel, and use words if neccessary.”
In the east, India and Tibet etc, the spiritual teacher is called guru. It is a special definition that has been somewhat perverted in the west. And because of teachers of ill repute the word can be associated with mindless adherence to authoritative users and abusers.
When I have mentioned teachers, I have meant for the most part the guru.
Gu means dispeller and ru means darkness. If someone is helping you to dispel darkness that is called guru. The word can be used for a teacher or the word can designate a liberated being that has the capacity to guide a student from life to life. A relationship that lasts from life to life until full liberation for the student.
It is not a concept that is natural to western mentalities but is becoming more known.
Being one with the student, the gurus teaching comes through words, if still in the body, or written texts. But primarily and more potently, the treaching is transmitted like heat. Having no time or space as a barrier to the relationship, the guru guides the student like a mother bird with its young. Love is the medium by which guru and student are connected. And being that the guru is God realized, he or she has the power to intercede from time to time on the students behalf.
Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Ramakrishna, my lineage of masters and many more fit into this catagory. Having realized the cosmos as a dream of consciousness there is no limit to their potential.
Through the spiritual eye, that element within souls which sees spiritually and not through physical eyes, one can access anytime anywhere the influence of the guru. That is because, being fully liberated, the guru is not hemmed in by time nor space. Being conscious of the universe, like we are conscious of our bodies, the liberated master is ever aware of omnipresence and thereby alway conscious of the student, making access total, whenever the call or need arises.
It is a sweet relationship as the guru promises to guide the studend from life to life until the student becomes a master. Thus fullfilling natures evolutionary responsibilities. Personal guidance to the infinite. When death comes, we sometimes loose our loved ones to the vast universe. But the guru, being liberated has no such rude amnesia that plagues the human.
But that relationship is sacred, no words can tell. A telepathic transmmision based on mutual love and trust. I have many stories to tell to back up my claims. Autobiography of a Yogi goes into detail on many stories of such beings. Those in my lineage and those in other lineages. Making it truly an ecumenical writing.
So whenever I mention teacher, I am meaning a guru: a fully liberated being and not simply someone who is sharing information.
I could not agree more.
Each and every one must ultimately blaze their own path through life and discover their own truth.
Sorry Monte, she is very steadfast and I should know better. I hope she will grow up and fullfil her dream(s)
This is my first visit to this blog. It was recommended by Kate and that’s the way the world works.
It is serendipitous that what I first encounter is Siddhartha. Having just emailed her, a point that I made to her was my isolation as a spiritual seeker. I’m solo on this quest and Siddhartha reminds me that may be a blessing.
Confusion: is the introduction of something not real to you but insisting that it is real.
„real to you“ = in your universe.
To reach enlightenment one essential requirement or ingredient is to give up all your desires.
That is nor real for me and never has been.
„introduction“ = putting it into your universe. Not self determined.
Therefore I decided not to do the OT levels. (after 1982)
Something that is in your universe and that is real to you (valid, your creation, somehting you want there to exist) you cannot erase by auditing. Or other tech. In the old days of Scientology auditing had been used to indentify those „injected“ stuff that you could not get rid of. Now those things that are not real to you are those things that get validated. And all those things real to you are negated.
(„you are full of shit“ or whatever words that are used)
As I did insist almost always that my reality is real I had been enlighted. Following some else turns the lights out.
Now I get it it is pay what you if/want principle like Marty’s services. And good folk will find away to stay in exchange even if it’s onley by precence and attention.
I am a bit slow sometimes inghetting it
It’s kind of you to allow the link for info regarding Anonycat/Cat Daddy’s emergency. Thank you! Small acts of kindness are never wasted, but combined, do great things..
“The most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss and have found their way out of the depths. These persons have an appreciation, a sensitivity,and an understanding of life that fills them with compassion, gentleness,and a deep loving concern. Beautiful people do not just happen.”
Thank you Marty. Well this leaves me a bit confused because per the book I first read back in 1970 (The Gospel of Buddha by Paul Carus). In that book it is stated that Buddha’s proper name is Siddhattha or Siddhartha.
Then how is this possible (your quote): During his early spiritual seeking years, Siddhartha comes into contact with the Buddha, referred to as the Glorious One.
Hummmm. I figure if I need to know I’ll find out but I get what is being said – yes of course – each person must find their own path. What good would be all this experience if that were not true. How boring simply to leave it all up to another and wouldn’t work anyway because no once can ‘buy’ enlightenment or understanding. I figure in all these 37+ years of Scientology/LRH/staff experience, I have learned lessons I needed and it takes as long as it takes.
With person’s now having the internet library – it won’t take so long. LRH did highly recommend multiple viewpoints.
I appreciate your sharing your understandings.
Sounds like an interesting book.
Science debunks Rewards & Penalties! It only works for ROBOTS.
Yes, contrary to what we may have been indoctrinated to think, blazing your own trail is much easier and more exciting than you ever dreamed. It is a natural urge and ability of any human being. After all, it makes sense to do your own research, make your own conclusions, discover your own truths. Then you know whether something is true or not. It is in this way that all the great discoveries were made. A system of beliefs is actually a trap. A maze of mirrors that suppresses your urge to discover the unknown. Had it been a truth, that only some have the truth and we must follow them, Henry Ford would have called Mazda and Lamborghini a bunch of squirrels instead of hailing them as trail blazers and innovative geniuses!!! :-))) Take the step to freedom, it has more benefits and joy than you would have ever guessed.
Lol, CD! Nice video. I know Rupert from my kids. Hahaha. Cartoons give a lightness to things, thanks.
Words are harder and thus adults tend to get more and more solid. First of all I think you wanted to say “everybody has other kind of intentions than one” because “other determined” actual means not self determined. I don’t know if I got this right.
And then I don’t really think that we don’t love each other, each one of us in this group. Our realities differ to a degree (not really so much) but just because we are all isolated in our minds we tend to think that others really don’t like us or are too different for us to like them.
I read Siddhartha while in the army. A good friend of mine gave me the book. Maybe I should re-read it because it gave me such a different viewpoint in life. It was poetic and it was different. In those days also I was making my revolution so it all came to a piece. The book struck me in a wild way.
But I will only agree up to a point. I didn’t follow L. Ron Hubbard because I wanted to follow him. I did it for others to follow and learn the lessons I had learned. That was all. It was not my need to follow someone but more of a need to help someones. Then I took my own way and followed my path as I still do. Siddhartha is an excellent book to show the love for life and it is great that Marty posted about it. I am that HAS for HASI now (as much as I can from my home actually) and I do say all this in a very conscientious way: we are all in this life next one to the other. We are all seekers of some higher truths. This is to be cherished along the way. The amount of Affinity that one can exhibit is proportional to his level of spiritual awareness. No post or organisation can supplant this. When man becomes something else and loses himself he is on his way to self abnegation. Learning, though, is another thing. We can learn but not become the other(s). We can Be the other(s) but not become them. That’s a big difference.
In any case thanks for the reach out.
Cece, from Wikipedia:
“Siddhartha or Siddharta is the birth name of the founder of Buddhism, Gautama Buddha.
“Siddhartha may also refer to:
Siddhartha (novel), a fictional book about the life of a man (not the Buddha) named Siddhartha, by Hermann Hesse.”
And since I mentioned my HAS post I want to say this. I prefer to be a Recruiter (from Latin re-crescere = to make grow again) and see people happy with one another under some agreements they can dig. No more battles but peace. This is how I see the most important thing in what I want to do.
And I often write at Tony Ortega’s blog and people know me there and I have built some ARC with them and we don’t quarrel but we can discuss. And there, oh boy, do they have a much different reality. At least here I find some peace of mind as Marty really seeks for truths and can have high spirited conversations. That’s high on the scale, CD.
Thanks Marty for another thought starting pen.
‘Siddhartha’ was pivotal to my understanding of the quest to a higher enlightenment. I, too, was in high school when I first encountered Hesse’s opus.
Said with a twist: May we never be “Normal” again.
Thanks for the tip, Marty! Just got the audiobook. For those of you who prefer listening, it is available for free here (public domain):
Why thank you Marildi 🙂
So much for the Hymn of Asia.
I’m going to order my copy of Siddhartha.
The choosing, or not, to don a robe has absolutely nothing to do with it . To think that it does, in humble opinion, would mean the thinker needs to stop doing just that.
But before he FIRED them, did he not first UNDERSTAND them?
Money is at the bottom of the Scale of Motivation:
Duty – Highest
Money – Lowest.
(HCO PL 11 Nov 69)
Brian, thank you so much for this comment and especially for the elaboration on the meaning of the word guru. That was very helpful.
I believe the guru is within yet this is not commonly recognized as being the case. Attaching ourselves and identifying with physical form as we do and, more often than not, seeming to perceive through the body’s eyes, we have to project the guru into a dream of there being an outside of self in order to be guided back within to bring the dark to the light. Apparently this process of projecting the guru into a symbol that seems to exist outside of self e.g., Jesus, Mohammed, Krishna, LRH, Billy Graham, Buddha, the Pope, a Sunday school teacher and so on, is, for many of us, a necessary step in our awakening to who and what and where we really are.
If the cosmos were a symbol for the body of God and the tiniest particles within the cosmos (the most fundamental building blocks) symbolized the Christ (the extension of God) I suspect that it is only one of those tiny little particles that is having a dream of consciousness. A dream of a multidimensional limitless universe of space, time, energy and form. The guru (the Christ) takes on myriad symbols (physical and nonphysical identities) within the dream as a means to bring an end to the dream.
While “recruit” does have roots that mean “again” + “grow” it is not referring to the growth of the individual being recruited. It is referring to the growth of (or regrowth) of where the recruits are going.
A recruit into the Army is not for the recruited person’s growth, it is to grow the Army. To recruit someone into Scientology is not to “grow” or “regrow” (or trigger “regrowth” in) that person; it is to grow the third dynamic group Scientology through recruitment.
I recruited some people into Scientology. Some of them are dead (natural causes of age) and some have vanished (cannot be located) and may have expired before their time. Some of them were stripped bare financially. Some were exploited at times of crisis in their lives. Some ended up doing long-hour grunge jobs for little or no pay in the guts of orgs, their tremendous life potential wasted in a haze of unfulfilled dreams and constant cigarette smoke. I am not proud that I had the role of recruiter for anyone.
Yes i agree, it is all within. I am a musician. That capacity is and has always been within me. But loving music as I do, and loving learning, I take advantage of music teachers that help me find my own music.
Learning from others happens in all teachings. Even the teachings that preach against teachers.
Krishnamurti always cracks me up with his anti teacher stance. There he is teaching, being a guru in his own way, teaching against teachers.
I love learning from those who know more than me. I love the student teacher relation. Because I love my subjects.
The guru is only a mirror, not the goal.
In the begining of the path we are all identified with the trappings and externalities because of lacking self realization: spiritual perception of self.
Those paths that bring one to see God within are a good path. Those paths that trap a person in worshipping teachers, proceedures, practices, doctrines are not good paths (though learning does occur there also).
Because of bad experiences with teachers, teachers that themselves don’t know the subjects they teach, and teachers that use students fir their own selfish ends, it is reasonable to conclude that all teachers are a mistake.
But my experience is: there is a quality of beings, those that have gone before us, our elders in this evolutionary caravan of consciousness, that send blessings to those receptive enough to receive.
And it is all based on love, and love is always good.
Skyward bound my heart upswings
Softly I hold the long kite string
Gazing within this sky unfolds
Stirring my heart were stories are told
Taking your cue
My heart will sing
To that which is precious
Though practice brings
They say you’re unreal
Not needed to sing
This land of hard bone
No magic to bring
But ah! do I know
The lovers embrace
Disproves their assertions
Of your infirmed disgrace
So silently a push out
My small paper boats
In hopes that one heart only
Tries to elope
through the various teachers I have listened to over the years , I have understood that for the most part they were teaching the way they had been taught with the good and the not so good . I learned to ask the right questions to get out of them what I knew they knew that would help me grow as an artist .
Finally letting go of being taught and relying on the knowldge that was now mine , was a freeing experience but at times overwhelming as the factor of responsability enters in and it is “swin or sink” .
Still , it is a beautiful thing .
I read Siddhartha many years ago and am looking forward to reading it again with a new perspective
FOTF: When you recruit for someone else, you put your trust in that someone else. When the person is then harmed by the group you recruited for, that is a betrayal of the original trust. The overt is on the betrayer. But it is still an error. (An overt of a different kind)
Just look, in detail, what overts and errors were committed by whom and why and come up to PT on it. You learned from it so there was some net positive. We learned from your post so there is more positive.
I’m going to the salt water, i.e., the ocean. My brother Paul awaits.
Well I can’t find the post you’re referring to, and I don’t recall ever making any post about Zarawhatsisname, so I can only assume you were replying to someone else……
This is supposedly a reply to katageek’s reply to a post I never made……?
marildi, let’s explore the highest motivation according to Ron by asking the question…duty to what?
Choosing, like you say, might very well have absolutely nothing to do with it. However, it has been my experience that wondering about the why of the choosing can be most worthwhile as it often times leads to recognition.
Brian, from beginning to end, your comment was most beautiful. Thank you. I share your perspective.
Very good question, Monte. I think the answer is one’s friends and comrades. Actually, this is a subject that was being discussed on the previous blog thread in relation to the first three points on the Code of Honor:
1. Never desert a comrade in need, in danger or in trouble.
2. Never withdraw allegiance once granted.
3. Never desert a group to which you owe your support.
And I don’t think it’s by chance that those are the first three, based on the following excerpt from the LRH issue introducing The Code of Honor:
“The Code of Honor clearly states conditions of acceptable comradeship amongst those fighting on one side against something which they conceive should be remedied. While anyone practicing ‘the only one’ believes that it is possible to have a fight or contest only so long as one remains ‘the only one,’ and confronts as that single identity all of existence, it is not very workable to live without friends or comrades in arms. Amongst those friends and comrades in arms one’s acceptability and measure is established fairly well by his adherence to such a thing as the Code of Honor. Anyone practicing the Code of Honor would maintain a good opinion of his fellows, a much more important thing than having one’s fellows maintain a good opinion of one.
“If you believed Man was worthy enough to be granted by you sufficient stature so as to permit you to exercise gladly the Code of Honor, I can guarantee that you would be a happy person. And if you found an occasional miscreant falling away from the best standards you have developed, you yet did not turn away from the rest of Man, and if you discovered yourself betrayed by those you were seeking to defend and yet did not then experience a complete reversal of opinion about all your fellow men – there would be no dwindling spiral for you.
“Indicative of this is a process which is rather easy to work and which has some workability. Sit down in a public place where many people are passing by and simply postulate into them, above them, around them, perfection—no matter what you see. Do this person after person as they walk by you or around you, doing it quietly and to yourself. It may or may not occur that you would bring changes in their lives, but it would certainly occur that you would bring about a change in yourself. This is not an advised process – it is simply a demonstration of a fact that he who lives believing wrong of all his fellow men lives, himself, in Hell. The only difference between Paradise on Earth and Hell on Earth is whether or not you believe your fellow man worthy of receiving from you the friendship and devotion called for in this Code of Honor.”
(PAB 40, “The Code of Honor,” 26 Nov 54)
Theo you inpire me to be a better conversationalist and have a bit less quarreling.
Yes somebody at Tony’s site commented that excact thing about you.
That was my first spiritual book,it got me on the path,then shortly after I was planning to go to India,ended up getting in scientology.
I read all of his books.my 2 favorites were narsssicuss and goldman and journey to the east.
Thank you Monte, I appreciate that. Your post and mine brought out the spontaneous poet in me. Before coffee!
The bridge has already been crossed by countless beings over centuries and countless cycles of time.
To assume it hasn’t is ignorance of the vast world of spiritual history. Or denial of it for personal gain.
It is pure propoganda to inject into the public discourse that I, Ron, now and forever have a bridge which previously did not exist.
At some point the bridge looses being linear: time
And then resolves into it’s more basic form: thought
And then it dissolves into it’s prime spawning ground: individual consciousness
And from individual consciousness it dissolves back into the Ocean of All Spawning: The Supreme Reality, having which gained no other gain is greater.
To not confuse our readers AnonyCat and AnonKat(me) are two different persons on ESMB. He lives in the States and I in The Netherlands.
And to add to it Siddhartha is Sanskrit.
Siddha means “one who is accomplished, liberated, a perfected being”
And artha means “goal”
One who has accomplished the goal of spiritual perfection/liberation.
Siddha can also mean spiritual power. Spiritual masters have developed siddhis. Patanjalis Yoga Sutras goes into detail on these powers.
Best translation and commentary by Swami Pranavananda and Christopher Isherwood.
Sorry it’s Swami Prabhavananda. So many “anandas” to remember is a daunting task. BTW, ananda means joy, bliss.
Well that is the path I have taken. I had to leave the cult to live the stuff before I could see. I now see this system is stacked all the way around. UP, DOWN, Backwards and forwards and everywhere in between.
marildi, my apologies for the illusory delay in responding to you as increments of time seemed to pass but I am here now as I have always been and I’ve been exploring the question…’Duty to what?’
It is my experience that, more often than not, it is the simple questions that are the magic wands that cause doors to suddenly appear. Doors that open into a place that is not a place but nevertheless a ‘place’ that I am becoming increasingly familiar with. The ‘place’ I am speaking of is within. As I continue to awaken inside the dream of this universe more and more doors are springing up in the most unexpected of places. I have discovered that the master key that will open any door that is perceived is the wondering what’s on the other side of the door and a willingness to open it. Those two components are all it takes. Something else I have discovered is that every door I open opens into the same ‘place’ i.e., within. But, that said, each door opens into a particular viewpoint of within where the answers to the specific questions asked will be found. And as the answers are found, I must say, that it is never about what I thought it was about.
marildi, by the time I encountered LRH’s scale of motivation any semblance of personal integrity that might be applied to Ron’s utterances had mostly been suspended. In other words, if it came from Ron I accepted it without personal inspection. If I did happen to query whether a datum was true for me or not, if it was clearly not at the time, I knew that at some point, as I progressed up the Bridge, that it eventually would be. I had placed Ron up at the top of the ladder and myself only a few rungs up from the bottom struggling to reach up to the next rung so who was I to question the perspective of a being I perceived to be at the top of the ladder?
Now, as I consider Ron’s scale of motivation, I see it much differently. I see it as a subdivision of a more basic motivation. That motivation being the motivation to choose to do what ever serves one’s best interests. How this motivation manifests, whether it be a devotion to money, personal gain, personal conviction, duty or something else…it’s about behaving in a manner that is believed by the individual that will serve their best interests. Of course, the motivation of serving one’s best interests is a subdivision of a more basic motivation i.e. a belief that one must keep the body alive for as long as possible and this too is a subdivision of an even more basic motivation and that is…a belief that one needs to be motivated. And before this basic belief that motivation was needed, there was a desire to…Be something other than what one was. What is taken for ‘Life’ in a dream universe seems to require motivation but certainly, an eternal, all knowing spiritual being requires no motivation. It would be absurd to think so.
As for my answer to the question posed…Duty to what?…well, for me, there is no duty to anything that appears to be outside of Self. My duty is only and ever to Self as there is no outside of Self except as a dream and dreams are not real. It is my duty to seek alignment with the eternal perfection of Spirit (an extension of God) that I am. As for the seemingly countless ‘others’ that appear to exist outside of Self…I desire to Love each and everyone as mySelf.
“One moral of the story is that one doesn’t attain to enlightenment by simply following an enlightened one’s path. Perhaps even, the very act of becoming a devoted follower ultimately bars the path.”
Beautifully put, Marty. Thank you for your willingness to share your journey.
Hi Monte. Thanks for your usual lyrical comment. And next time I’m late for something I’m going to point out that it’s only an “illusory delay” 😀 Just kidding around – no problem with the delay. I knew you were too “dutiful” not to reply. (More kidding but a compliment at the same time. ;))
It may very well be that what you wrote above is on a very high level of truth. Higher than that of “ego” or “us vs. them” ways of thinking. Nevertheless, when it comes to everyday life, I don’t see any way of getting around the fact that choices have to be made. And on that level of reality, the choice of duty to friends and comrades – when the intention is ultimately for the good of all – seems to me to be the best choice one has. Maybe I just haven’t understood what’s meant by the inherent evil of “dichotomies.”
Hello marildi, this may come as a surprise to you but this morning we had a most wonderful communion and you gave me quite a remarkable tour! I am enormously grateful for your gift. I was so inspired from this experience that I composed an extensive reply and was just about to wrap it all up and click post this comment, when I closed the window and lost it all. LOL! There is nothing random in this journey through space and time and any loss is only an illusion.
marildi, you stated: “Nevertheless, when it comes to everyday life, I don’t see any way of getting around the fact that choices have to be made.” Wow! If that is not a magic wand that makes doors appear I don’t know what one is. And I assure you, it brought one helluva a door into view. Of course I opened it and went on in. 🙂 Btw, that’s when I ran into you this morning.
The experiences of everyday life i.e., all the circumstances, events, situations, people, places and things…are neutral and without meaning until we add the meaning via the choices we make, via the belief systems we hold, whether they be conscious or unconscious. This is how the experience of ‘everyday life’ is made. The choice always precedes the experience but the experience reinforces the choice. This is why it can sometimes be difficult to change a belief system which will change the choices.
As for choices…it’s easy, there are only two. One is the choice of Fragment aka Fear and the other is the choice of Unity aka Love. When a choice of Fragment is made it fragments that is, it divides and subdivides, separates and complicates. When a choice of Unity is made it pulls pieces together, it joins and it simplifies. The experiences we have reveal to us both our conscious and unconscious choices and belief systems. And as we observe them we can adjust them but then there’s all those that we don’t want to claim as our own.
Any experience that appears to have constancy in the present is actually an indication that the same choice is being made again, and again, and again. This creates the apparancey of continuation. That noted, history repeats itself only because the same choices are continually being made in the present moment.
The good news…a fragmented everyday life cannot possibly hold a Spirit. A fragmented world cannot endure more than an instant and it represents no more than a passing cloud on a sky eternally serene. The fragmented world is only an instant but we journey beyond the tiny instant to eternity.
Again marildi, much thanks for the wonderful gift. It was a joy to receive!
Hi again marildi! I just watched a video on YT that you might find what’s being discussed in it to be of some interest. The title of it is: Your State of Mind is Your Responsibility (13:48). It’s by David Hoffmeister.
Hi, Monte. Wow, I’m happy you had such a wonderful experience. And that we had a communion. I continued reading after that part and then got the idea to see if I could contact you – and felt that I did. It was a really nice space. 🙂
You wrote: “The experiences of everyday life i.e., all the circumstances, events, situations, people, places and things…are neutral and without meaning until we add the meaning via the choices we make, via the belief systems we hold, whether they be conscious or unconscious. This is how the experience of ‘everyday life’ is made. The choice always precedes the experience but the experience reinforces the choice. This is why it can sometimes be difficult to change a belief system which will change the choices.”
That was very well put, and understandable to me. It actually sounds like a description of the basis of karma, and parallel to what the Buddha said in this famous quote: “All that we are is the result of what we have thought: all that we are is founded on our thoughts and formed of our thoughts.”
There was another thing you wrote that was a bit too abstract for me: “When a choice of Fragment is made it fragments that is, it divides and subdivides, separates and complicates. When a choice of Unity is made it pulls pieces together, it joins and it simplifies.”
Is it possible to illustrate that with an example?
Again, nice “running into you” too. 😉
Thanks. I watched it. This man is a good advertisement for what he preaches – he has a glow of health. I’m sure there’s something to what you and he are saying.
marildi, about that concept that was a bit too abstract for you…”When a choice of Fragment is made it fragments that is, it divides and subdivides, separates and complicates. When a choice of Unity is made it pulls pieces together, it joins and it simplifies.”…I appreciate that you asked me to illustrate it with an example. I’ll see what I can do but the caveat is that what flows out might be even more abstract than the abstraction I’m attempting to illustrate. 🙂 We’ll see how it goes…(let me know)
I recently began watching a British TV show on Hulu called Life on Mars that is about a detective that is hit by a car and ends up in a coma. When he goes into the coma it seems that the bulk of his awareness and identity is shifted from 2006 to 1973. So this character, for all practical purposes, appears to be in a very solid reality of 1973 but he’s fully aware that he’s in a coma in 2006 and he desperately wants to return. Anyway, there’s a scene in episode 2 where he is in his dismal flat looking into the mirror over his bathroom sink. The mirror is badly cracked into many fragments on one side while the other side remains clear and whole. As he looks at his image in the mirror, vacillating between the fragmented and the whole, when his image appears in the clear side of the mirror he says, “Real.” When it appears in the fragmented side he says, “Unreal.”
For me, this scene is a wonderful depiction of what appears to be our state of mind, that is; a mind that is split where one side of the mind is real and the other unreal. That said, I want to make use of the mirror metaphor as I attempt to explain what I’m trying to explain.
I would venture to say marildi, that, by far, the lion’s share of humanity only looks in the fragmented side of the mirror and believes this to be the only mirror there is. And in this mirror everything is perceived to exist as a piece of something else with each piece having two sides in opposition and the entirety of anything can never be viewed. The focus of the observer is usually narrowed down to only a few pieces at a time, usually concerning some aspect of the body, and rarely goes beyond this. Consequently, there is never any lasting satisfaction that can be achieved while viewing a fragmented mirror (living a life in fragmentation).
What fragments this mirror? What keeps this mirror in fragments? Judgments. Judgments stemming from a core belief that any and everything will always be either more or less and nothing is ever really equal. Judgments, divide and subdivide everything into parts and therefore maintain a separation of parts via systems of classification, categorization, comparisons, orders, levels, degrees, gradations, games and hierarchies. Also, the concept of linear time is more than a little efficacious in maintaining the illusion of a fragmented mirror. The state of fragmentation, obviously, lends itself to both complexity and conflict. Indeed, the state of fragmentation is always a state of chaos, albeit, varying degrees of chaos.
The other side of the mirror, the side that remains invisible to those so focused on trying to make sense out of all the pieces they’re looking at, the side that is whole and clear…well, on this side everything is equal and everything is everything. There is no lack, no void to fill, no truth to seek, nothing to be learned, no judgments to be made, no sorting out to do, no goals to achieve, nothing to forgive or forget…this side of the mirror is actually not a ‘side’ at all. This IS the mirror and there are no sides. This mirror is real. The fragmentation is unreal.
marildi, it is only recently that I have come to recognize that existing in a state of fragmentation was not the only game in town. This recognition had, and continues to have, a radical impact upon my belief systems and the choices determined by those belief systems. Consequently, I have entered and remain in a phase of tremendous sorting out and adjusting of my belief systems and choices. Taking responsibility for my belief systems and choices, seeing others as myself, letting go of the need to judge, compare and label everything I perceive is, at this point, quite difficult for me. In other words, shifting from a belief system(s) and choices that do nothing but fragment to a belief system of complete equality, inclusiveness and unity is most definitely proving to be a challenge for me. Even so, in the process, I’m experiencing a peace in mind and happiness that I have not before experienced and this is being reflected in my everyday life.
To wrap up this lengthy response (that I hope you can make some sense of) to your request, here is what I think to be an apropos excerpt from A Course in Miracles.
“But, though the order which you impose upon your minds limits the ego, IT ALSO LIMITS YOU. To order is to judge, and to arrange BY judgment. Therefore, it is NOT your function, but the Holy Spirit’s. It will seem very difficult to you to learn that YOU HAVE NO BASIS AT ALL for ordering your thoughts. This lesson the Holy Spirit teaches, by giving you shining examples, to show you that your way of ordering is wrong, but that a better way is OFFERED you. The miracle offers EXACTLY the same response to EVERY call for help. IT DOES NOT JUDGE THE CALL. It merely recognizes what it IS, and answers accordingly. It does NOT consider which call is louder, or greater, or more important.
“You may wonder how you, who are still bound to judgment, can be asked to do that which requires no judgment of your own. The answer is very simple. The power of God, and NOT of you, engenders miracles. The miracle ITSELF is but the witness that you HAVE the power of God in you. That is the reason that the miracle gives EQUAL blessing to ALL who share in it, and that is also why EVERYONE shares in it. The power of God IS limitless. And, being always maximal, it offers EVERYTHING to EVERY call from ANYONE. There is no order here. A call for help is GIVEN help. The only judgment involved at all is in the Holy Spirit’s one division into two categories; one of love, and the other, the call for love.
“You cannot safely make this division, for you are much too confused, either to recognize love, or to believe that EVERYTHING else is nothing but a NEED for love. You are too bound to form, and NOT to content. What you CONSIDER content, is not content at all. It is merely form, and nothing else. For you do NOT respond to what a brother REALLY offers you, but only to the particular perception of his offering by which your EGO judges it. The ego is incapable of understanding content, and is totally unconcerned with it. To the ego, if the form is acceptable, the content MUST be. Otherwise, it will attack the form.”
Source of excerpt: http://courseinmiracles.com/5-the-shift-to-miracles/urtext/14-bringing-illusions-to-truth/the-shift-to-miracles
marildi, one more thing…in our communion that I spoke of there was no separation, no fragmentation, no judgment. There was only Love and Joy and it was a really, really good thing! 😀
Thank you, Monte! You write so well and you really have a wonderful message on top of it.
As I was reading along, I didn’t think it would happen but by the end I surprised myself – I think I got the thing you are trying to communicate. What you got me thinking about was the meaning of “unconditional love.” I believe I know what that is and have experienced it. So now I can apply that to this whole message of yours, because I think unconditional love is one way of putting it. And from here I can apply it enough to continue increasing my understanding and ability along these “lines” (ha ha – as you’ve indicated, words fail). Sincerely, thanks for the true gift!
One more thing, and this is on the point of “oneness.” How did you know it was me in our communion? Do you see what I’m asking?
marildi, I’m so happy to hear that you surprised yourself! 😀 Yes, you’re spot on…unconditional love is most definitely another way of putting it. I’m glad to know that at least one of us can cut to the chase. 🙂
As for your question of how I knew it was you in our communion. In Marty’s post, The Bridge Beyond the Bridge, I posted a comment wherein I spoke of ‘ME.’ I realize that it might sound corny or flippant marilidi but it was ME that told me.
marildi, it seems that there are many levels of consciousness and we exist on all of them simultaneously. Each level of consciousness is an experience manifested by choices made based on a particular belief system. The consciousness of physicality is a very low order of consciousness stemming from a belief system that is inundated with all manner of limitations. In our experience of physicality we exist as separate individual identities (bodies) that require various mechanical devices in order to exchange perspectives (our heavily filtered interpretations of what we perceive).The default choices (judgments) that we make in the consciousness of physicality act to divide, subdivide and separate, thereby, reinforcing the core belief system. That’s why it’s been so damn difficult to change the belief system. But, as we turn our attention inward and become more mindful, more conscious, of the belief systems we’re operating from that are out of alignment with Spirit, and begin to bypass the default choices that divide, and begin making conscious choices that unify, choices that are more in alignment with Spirit…our level of consciousness rises and our experiences become much more loving, peaceful and collaborative. We begin to move out of the consciousness of physicality with all its limitations and competitions enforced upon everything. As we rise in consciousness any idea of separation or limitation begins to diminish. In other words, as we rise in consciousness our tracks are brushed away into nothingness. The past that never really was disappears.
Our communion marildi obviously did not occur in within the consciousness of physicality. Personally, I really am enjoying closing down this physical level of consciousness. The level of consciousness where we had our communion is such a tremendous relief! Such a gift!
Monte, it’s a good thing that you don’t “cut to the chase.” Sometimes it takes a lot of comm for something to click. And you add the bonus of aesthetics to the comm. 🙂
But as for my question, I don’t think I made it very clear. What I meant was, how did you know that it was ME you were in communion with – as opposed to someone else. What I’m getting at is that it sounds like even at the level of meeting in “the non-physical universe,” there is still a unique and recognizable being.
marildi, the question you are asking is, of course, the obvious question to ask but the more spiritual something is the less I am able to use words or other symbols to describe it. The only answer I can give you marilidi is…I just know that the consciousness I communed with outside of physicality was the same consciousness that I’m having this exchange of perspectives with on Marty’s blog.. That consciousness being the ‘You’ that is identified as marilidi within this projected blog construct of reality.
You wrote: “What I’m getting at is that it sounds like even at the level of meeting in ‘the non-physical universe,’ there is still a unique and recognizable being.” I would say that most definitely there is still a unique and recognizable being as we rise in consciousness yet as we rise in consciousness we progressively become more and more unified. And while I can ‘go’ there be that experience I cannot begin to articulate it.
marildi, thank you so very much for this exchange. Every question you asked, every perspective you shared was a wonderful teaching and I am enormously grateful!
Thank you for sharing the quote SKM. I particularly like this line…”for in any case thou wilt live again.” To an eternal spiritual being the idea of ‘living again’ is such a paradox.
marilidi, I have two videos that pertain to our session of teaching/learning/teaching. They’re both on YT. The titles are: If Jesus Got it, Why Are We Still Here?, David Hoffmeister & Armelle (7:44) then…Using Mystical Poetry to Access Your Own Inner Guide: Kaveen Hutchinson (13:09) (this is a TEDx Talk).
Peace Out and Much Love!
Yeah, you know, it’s all matter of definition. I don’t read more into it than the author expected to tell his audience.
In germany we have a funny saying wich goes like this: “Is there a life before death?” 😀
However, the above quote of Nietzsche is very applicable when it comes to motivation.
Hi again, Monte. 🙂
You wrote: “I would say that most definitely there is still a unique and recognizable being as we rise in consciousness yet as we rise in consciousness we progressively become more and more unified.”
Yes, the word “unified” is the one I’m still working on. To some people, it means that there exists no permanent soul or individual. But to others. like Scientologists, the individual (thetan) is eternal and “unified”, although it does mean something, doesn’t mean a loss of of being oneself.
So far, my inclination is to think that both of these notions may be true: On the one hand, we are One. But on the other, since there is no such thing as time in the higher consciousness states, how could it possibly be that the individual isn’t “permanent”? In other words, there may be no real difference in these two ideas but rather a matter of semantics. The problem may be the use of words, period – which by their nature put us back into fragmentation and division. But thank you very much for obliging me and expressing it as well as words would allow you to do.
Actually, I think you know that even words can miraculously “take you there” sometimes. That’s what happened with your words in this exchange, and I thank you again from my heart for the insight I got. As I said, it was truly a gift. I’ve been practicing it! Living it 🙂 That’s the “door” you opened for me, Monte. Gosh, it’s hard not to sound overly effusive! LOL
Thanks! I will watch them later on. Much love back!
Brian, a couple of nights ago I was watching a video of David Hoffmiester doing a remarkable (IMO) analysis of the first episode of Star Trek – Deep Space Nine. Even though David is doing his analysis through the lens of A Course in Miracles, I suspect that you would very much appreciate and resonate with what he has to say. I don’t think the nomenclature would get in the way in the least. Anyway, the reason I’m even bringing this up is that, as an aside, during the analysis, David offered a different way to spell guru (this is what bounced me back to this thread). His version goes like this:
Guru = Gee – You – Are – You
Brian, if you want to check out David’s analysis go to: http://acim.cc/ and then click on “David’s Movie Page.” The video is titled” Star Trek Time’s End (it takes a few moments to load).