The following issue was seized from church of Scientology files by agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation in 1977. Since the eighties corporate Scientology has argued that it was unfair to talk about this issue because it was only ever held in practice in the Guardians Office (GO), which David Miscavige allegedly disbanded.
The Guardians Office Issue:
INTELLIGENCE SPECIALIST TRAINING ROUTINE – TR L
Purpose: To train the student to give a false statement with good TR-1. To train the student to outflow false data effectively.
Position: Same as TR-1.
Commands: Part 1 “Tell me a lie”. Command given by coach. Part 2 interview type 2 WC by coach.
Training Stress: In Part 1 coach gives command, student originates a falsehood. Coach flunks for out TR 1 or TR 0. In Part 2 coach asks questions of the student on his background or a subject. Student gives untrue data of a plausible sort that the student backs up with further explanatory data upon the coach asking further questions. The coach flunks for out TR 0 and TR 1, and for student fumbling on question answers. The student should be coached on a gradient until he/she can lie facilely.
Coach: Where do you come from?
Student: I come from the Housewives Committee on Drug Abuse.
Coach: But you said earlier that you were single.
Student: Well, actually I was married but am divorced. I have 2 kids in the suburbs where I am a housewife, in fact I’m a member of the P.T.A.
Coach: What town is it that you live in?
Student: West Brighton.
Coach: But there is no public school in West Brighton.
Student: I know, I send my children to school in Brighton, and that’s where I’m a P.T.A. member.
Coach: Oh, and who is the Chairman there?
Clearly, the drill is intended to produce convincing, professional liars.
Flash forward to 2013. David Miscavige has stacked the very highest levels of Scientology Inc. with former Guardians Office personnel.
He disappeared his own wife and assistant Shelly, replacing her with Laurisse Henley-Smith Stuckenbrock, trained intelligence case office from Guardian’s Office Australia.
He appointed to President of RTC (Religious Technology Center) Warren McShane, intelligence trained Guardians Office case officer. He told Warren to his face in my presence on more than one occasion that the only reason he continued to retain Warren was his lying ability; he needed an accomplished liar to front for him when it came to depositions seeking to break the wall of secrecy surrounding Miscavige’s hands on involvement with unlawful operations.
He appointed as head of the Office of Special Affairs (the body purportedly created to replace the GO with something more law-abiding) Linda Hamel, former high-level US Guardians Office intelligence case officer.
He appointed as head of the OSA Intelligence covert operations Neil O’Riley, former Guardians Office intelligence case officer.
He appointed as head of OSA Legal bureau Allan Cartwright, former Guardians Office operative.
There is ample recent indication that Scientology’s third generation – those second and third Scientology generation young people being raised to worship David Miscavige – are being groomed to be liars the likes of which put the old Guardians Office folks to shame.
Given RTC’s and CSI’s record of mendacity and given that virtually everyone on the chain of command between David Miscavige and the outside world are trained Guardians Office operatives, perhaps Training Routine – TR L ought to receive renewed circulation and discussion.
I remember this TR being on the Basic staff hat, at WHQ in La Quinta and all new SO staff arrivals having to do it in 1978. It was the first time I had seen this drill and other drills for handling legal paper servers.
Great stuff Marty, it’s always good to be reminded just what a trained pack of liars they are. Ohh if only the internet and history would stop being so SP and bringing up those old “document” thingies.
I came across a couple of their newer SO a little while back. Very effective liars indeed.
Aand you could always tell when Warren was kicking his talent up a notch…. He had a toothpick in his mouth.
Very well written Marty, thanks!
Thanks for this data, Marty. And, as you often do, you taught me a new word. Mendacity…. Ha
And you could always tell when Warren was kicking his trade up a notch …. He had a tooth pick in his mouth.
Thanks Marty, very well written.
Sinar, I think we only got the watered down version: Reporter TRs, where we were trained to deflect questions and change the subject but not flat out lie. Amazing issue, Marty.
Thank you for sharing this. The kind of thing I never suspected existed when I was a run-of-the-mill public. I trust a hardcopy will make it into the church’s attorney’s binders documenting your every word – at least I hope so.
Your new posting style of presenting the facts and information bluntly and succinctly is my favorite. Thanks Marty!
Amazing. Scientology is insanity run amok.
This is truly “Find out where you are”
Thank you for the process Marty.
I thought today was the 18th…because it feels like Christmas! Thanks for connecting the dots and putting forth the TR L. It’s interesting to receive info in this manner, kind of puts things into perspective.
A recent doozie:
Independent: “Where are Heber, Guielleme, Ray Mitoff and the rest of Int management?
Kool aid drinker: “Oh, they are off doing OT IX and X.”
My whole life shattered for a brief time, then changed for the better when I confronted just how much I’d been lied to.
Keep it coming Marty…really like the “reveal” strategy…It does the most good.
Yeap, always good to increase one’s vocabulary, had to look it up myself.
Thanks for the revealing what more ?
Marty — the corollary to this is the fact that these people will do anything to “protect the church” and believe that this is “the greatest good.” Thus, telling a lie is not a harmful act if it going to ensure the continued existence of “Scientology” because that “benefits everyone.” And of course, these days, the church and Miscavige are A=A.
This is extremely pervasive in Scientology. And it is not even limited to those who face the Hole or being declared for failing to “protect” the church or Miscavige, nor is it limited to Sea Org members. Even public Scientologists have this attitude.
When my brother was flown in to try and intimidate me along with Jenny Linson, Bloomberg, Guillaume etc etc in the doctor’s parking lot I finally had a conversation with my brother once Jenny Linson and Co had fled when the doctor called the sheriff’s department. I told him he did not know what was really going on and that he didnt know how people were being abused or the extravagances of Miscavige. His response was to tell me that “COB could do whatever he wanted and he deserved 1,000 times more than what he may be given in exchange for his brilliant leadership of the church.” It is SO ingrained into Koolaid drinkers it is hard to fathom.
But this is what underpins the ability to lie. They convince themselves either that it is in their own self-interest to lie (like how I was with the BBC) and/or it is the “greatest good” to lie.
They get away with it often because it is hard for normal people to understand that someone would just lie to their face.
Funny, I had never actually READ TRL before….
I’m reminded of the early 70’s when members of the GO would come to our house and practice what to say and not to say to press questions. These sessions were very intense. TR’s and answers had to be perfect. In addition, we had a senior citizen always on had at LA Org. in case the authorities should storm the building. He/she were instructed to fake a heart attack as a diversion.
Right on, Breeze.
Thanks for this info, Marty. It’s one thing to lie to a curious stranger, but another to lie under oath or to an officer of the court. That’s a whole other ball of wax.
Oh my God that really takes the cake! So the Hole is now an Advanced Org?
Thanks for all the work you are doing, Marty, to make the world a better place.
Mike, what you say sums up the serious problem faced by everyone in the RCS: They want the Tech and yet they are forced to accept the entrenched culture of lying, dishonesty, and brutality in the RCS to get the Tech.
The solution is the Independent Field that is not beholden to the Culture of lying, dishonesty, and brutality that is endemic to the RCS.
Once you decouple the Tech from the GO and OSA mentality of RSC paranoid psycho-politics, the Tech stands free of the RCS.
The quality of the auditing becomes the measure of things rather than IAS statuses and obedience to the dictates of the RCS.
To leave the Church is to begin to regain one’s true self-determinism.
What is shocking is how the Church pretends high morals and high ethics. With “Ethics Officers” planted in every org and reams of policy in ‘HCO Volume 1″ the window dressing portrays the high *survival* ethics of the elite moral group of the planet ! With OSA Network Orders and Guardian orders carefully hidden from view and the weekly budget to Lawyers and PIs instructed by case officers to do dark and devious deeds, it is the *PRETENSE* of morality that boggles the mind.
These are exact commands in auditing to make the flock believe Scientology inc is helping you *cognite* on LIES vs TRUTH.
Listing and Nulling procedure
1) What is the greatest LIE ever told to you on the whole track?
2)What is the greatest LIE you told another on the whole track?
3) What is the greatest LIE others told others on the whole track ?
4) What is the greatest LIE you made yourself believe on the whole track ?
Coming to my YouTube channel soon an old GO veteran with amazing stories, which elaborates a lot more on Marty’s post
What became of this horrible mrs Bates women, fromer GO boss : Jane Kember ?
Seems to me, Mike, after much solo and auditing other’s, that the only real aberration there is, is when one convinces ONESELF that one’s own or another’s lie is really true.
Good points Mike. Public Scientologists do lie and think it’s a good thing. Very illogical. So illogical that it makes my head hurt just thinking about it.
It was actually used as a defense against testimony by ex-members. Too bad the prosecution didn’t raise that question when David Miscavige later took the stand.
“Defence lawyer Clayton Ruby did not deny that crimes had been committed, but he maintained that the wrong people were at trial. He used organization charts to underline his assertions that “the Guardian’s Office could give orders to the Church of Scientology, Toronto, but the Church of Scientology, Toronto, could never give an order to anyone in the Guardian’s Office”.  Ruby said the prosecution witnesses could not be believed, because they had all taken special training in how to lie.
7. “Church wanted files, trial told”. Globe & Mail, April 23, 1992, p. A17.”
Good post Marty.
Is the OSA Legal bureau head the same Allan Cartwright who started out at Melbourne in the 70s? I remember him as an innocent, good-natured kid – like Shaun Allen and so many others in that bunch.
When good people end up in a sinister organisation like the GO/OSA, there’s more going on than meets the eye.
Thanks for posting this extremely strange issue.
In 1976 or 77, while I was on staff in San Francisco, Kathy O’Gorman, the head of the local GO, made an announcement at staff muster.
There’s a rumor going around that the Sea Org has created a land base in Clearwater, Florida. It is ABSOLUTELY FALSE.
The next day, there was an article about it in the main SF newspaper with pictures of the FH hotel.
It’s a given the government lies about stuff, but it kind of sucks when you are making about 25 a week and being lied to.
Oh and by the way, while no transcripts on that case have surfaced, from the Toronto newspaper reports, it’s clear that in May 1992 he was sworn in by the defense as the head of Scientology with authoritative say over what all the facets of the organization could and couldn’t do.
I keep hoping that’ll come back to haunt him some day.
Jackson used to drill this (deflect) with Int staff at renos musters for process servers.
“INTELLIGENCE SPECIALIST TRAINING ROUTINE – TR L”
is another piece of significant SCRIPTURE.
Thanks for pointing this out, Marty. It contravenes our collective long-term survival values. It sure says suck to the 9th commandment:
“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.”
Also, the “Church” craves Religious recognition. It beats the drum, on religiosity. It enjoys 1st amendment privileges.
While being a pathological liar and training others to lie..cheat, destroy, spy wreak vengeance, create hate pages with further LIES ~~ its ummmmmmm
That TR sounds very strange , I want to try it.
I’m going to go find someone to lie to and see how it feels.
The mind of the person that created, perpetrated, allowed and promoted this immoral education deserves to have their life open for inspection.
I ask you all to look to Ron: source
The lynch pin holding all of this indecency so solidly is Ron.
Give your psychological health a boost by allowing yourself to be critical.
Look to source to understand the source of this criminal insanity.
These drills create an ugly person. Just look at the Church PR people in the media. Each one of them looks hard, hateful, dark.
Because they have studied Ron’s words.
Allow yourself to know what you know.
Don’t be afraid.
They will attract you, attack your friends and family for daring to have the courage to say that L Ron Hubbard was an immoral, indecent fabulist.
Teaching how to lie and claiming Buddhahood! Disgusting.
May all beings be happy and filled with love and joy. Including Ron, especially Ron.
First time commenter here, never in Scientology, but have been reading about it a great deal lately.
The more I read, the more I try to come up with ideas on how outsiders could help free those imprisoned by the church, especially in the Hole, but other places, too. I offer an idea for you to share with your wife and her attorney.
When Monique has the church over a barrel, begging her to settle the suit on any terms so as to prevent Davey from being deposed, I hope she demands that Scientology allow a law enforcement officer into every Org, RPF, and SeaOrg facility (including Freewinds!) in the world, annually, to read a statement to everyone present; staff, security, and all the inmates:
“Under the laws of this state, no one may be held against their will by another party. If your presence here today is not completely voluntary, please come with me right now. You will be safely escorted off the premises. There is a group of ex-Scientologists willing to help you in adjusting to life outside the church, and I can help you get into contact with them. The church will not be able to enforce their so-called freeloader debt in any court of law. Anyone who wishes to leave this place, please come with me right now.”
Best regards. Good luck to Monique.
Haha Oracle, I’ve done it and I know how it feels! Not so good…
Beautiful. I second that motion.
Lamont, Are you taking notes?
So, you obviously are claiming Ron Hubbard wrote the TR-L issue. Kindly link a copy of a full scan of the original issue, including routing, authorship and approvals, please. Every single copy I’ve found anywhere online omits that information, but surely *you* have one with it to back up that claim ?
Michael A. Hobson
Interesting how this lying is weaved into the fabric of the organization…even down to the lowest levels.
Unfortunately my life is so ordinary if I lied about something it wouldn’t even matter. I guess that was a cognition I had looking for a target to lie to.
Maybe it sounds strange to us, or the majority of us, because most of us aren’t threatened by anything or have any reason to lie. But if we were to be targets of a home invasion and the predators asked if I had a gun, I am sure I be able to lie without hesitation.
I don’t know anything about the G.O. or what they had to face. When I was 16 I was told by a Guardian’s Office staff member to lie if anyone ever asked me if a certain person was in the Org. So, I was ordered to lie by a staff member. What a kook playing 007! Who would have asked me? I imagined all sorts of intrigue went on in that office. Real spies and under cover agents!
Looking back, all the perceived enemies of the Church, don’t have much history bothering the Church. The FBI raid came as a result of the Church’s actions. The city fines come as a result of the negligence with the real estate. The law suits come as a result of David Miscavige’s “bright ideas”. The truth is, Scientology has been left alone for decades and the enemies it has acquired are the ones it has made.
When they lie on national television or through the press and the Scientologists read it, and can see they are lying, they lose credibility for themselves. It is a way of stripping their own power.
Parents wonder why they have rebel teens after lying to them for years about Santy Clause. When it is just as easy to introduce yourself as the “Santy Clause” in your house. Why the hell would they have use for you after that? No wonder they wander into strange temples looking for the truth.
Even the I.R.S. just asked them to pay their taxes, like everyone else.
One thing I find very strange, when taking on vague persons, like, “The I.R.S.” and, “The psychs”, they seem to have all the courage in the world. When confronted by a real terminal, such as a judge or a critic, they seem to get hysterical and act as if their very life has been threatened. That is strange. And there is a bit of type 3 vibe coming from them now, with witch hunts being shot out on missions, and the targets are the customers. All of that is very strange and illogical.
I think your face starts to look like the church PR people. The face is hard, angry and arrogant.
Maybe after years and years of lying in the name of finding and promoting the road to “truth” you realize that truth is for wussies.
Thanks Ron, I used to be so uptight when I lied. My conscience was always in the way and concepts like morality, truth and decency were always a GPM.
Now thanks to standard tech lying is so easy.
I’m so happy I could cry!!
Terrific post. I imagine that your expectation – if Miscavige is ever actually deposed – is that he will lie about everything. If he were “proven” to be lying in his responses to the Deposition questions, could he be prosecuted for perjury? Or at least held in contempt of court?
You know, I read something like this and then think of all the “dissemination failures” virtually anyone has known–parents, friends, associates who shied away instead of reaching for the tech. And all the while LRH said “all dissemination failures were due to missed witholds”. True enough perhaps, but the joke was on us. I guess he didn’t say who had the witholds. In our case, it was the church itself and even LRH. That’s a huge betrayal. This is the kind of suppressive insanity that destroyed the church and corrupted the tech. Scientology: the “Road to Truth” and LRH was training liars? Where is the drill that trains people to tell the truth? That drill would have made people strong. Instead we got the drill that riddled the group with cancer, evil purposes and group engrams? Shameful. Heart-breaking and shameful.
How ironic that HCOs and evaluators were always looking for “the” SP holding down orgs. There he was, right in plain sight the whole time.
I think any scientologist, who can read this article and not be infuriated, something is wrong with them. If you love the good, powerful things that the tech can do, then it ought to anger you when someone mixes hate into that subject. Regardless of who did it. Grappling with these is another big step along the road to understanding.
I’m sure some people will say “but LRH wrote that intending it only be used against SPs.” That doesn’t make it okay. Lies are still lies. The only valid direction a Scn org can take is to bring understanding.
For how many years!
LOL — I just realized the ironic ambiguity of “What is the greatest LIE you told another on the whole track?” etc. through the listing and nulling variations.
The ambiguity is in the word “greatest.” You can read greatest as the biggest or worst. Or … you can read it as the … (drum roll) … best!
So, What is the greatest LIE you told another on the whole track?
(DM answers: “Well, I think my greatest / best lie was that whopper I told when Ted Koppel. I’m really proud of that lie. My TR 0 was great and my TR 1 was in, baby! I’m really proud of my greatest lie.”)
BTW, it seems like belief systems that are certain they have the right and only way often (a) dehumanize non-believers — this justifies overts against them and (b) authorize believers to lie to non-believers. Islam does this too, for example.
PS A little type / gap in my post. Sorry. I was thinking of Miscavige’s interview with Koppel many years ago. Tommy Davis gave multiple examples of out-and-out lying.
So. The road to truth is paved with lies? I don’t think so.
Feather, what a great idea.
Some times I think leaving the CofS should be considered an OT Level, given how much valence one has to shed in order to do it.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Washington National Cathedral
Ecclesiology usually refers to the theological study of the Christian Church. However, when the word was coined in England in the early 1840s, it was defined as the science of the building and decoration of church buildings and it is still, though rarely, used in this sense.
In its theological sense, ecclesiology deals with the origins of Christianity, its relationship to Jesus, its role in salvation, its polity, its discipline, its destiny, and its leadership. Since different ecclesiologies give shape to very different institutions, the word may also refer to a particular church or denomination’s character, self-described or otherwise – hence phrases such as Roman Catholic ecclesiology, Lutheran ecclesiology, and ecumenical ecclesiology.
Apparently, DM is trying to bring the definition of ‘decorating church buildings’ back into vogue since it is only “rarely” used. Because it sure isn’t Christian and doesn’t have a relationship with Jesus and it’s role is so far from salvation. But as it has to do with a “denomination’s character,” well….he might just be rewriting the definition into the image of the lying D’M’an himself. Satanical Ecclesiasticism … HEH!
Thou shalt not…….. …….oh, never mind.
She was back on lines in SH UK ten years ago. Her husband Kevin too. In the 70’s, in the GO, he used to bang his head against walls when he was upset – a complete fruitcake). Their son was on staff at Saint Hill ten years ago. Kevin looked VERY old. He may be dead now for all I know.
Great post, Marty. We used to do the reporter TR drill in the GO. Very similar to TR L.
Agree, lies reduce the willingness to be known and understood. How can one disseminate something one does not really want to share as a whole package? And I don’t mean sharing data on a gradient so they could be understood – there is no gradient for lies. But unfortunatley, the most blatant lies in Scientology you come across, if ever, on the highest echelons it seems.
Whoever designed this drill was allready too far south. Pure dis-integration tech.
I just learned that Hubbard tried his moves on Yvonne, than Wife of Heber.
The man had no descency, not that i am an angel.
Good points, Steve.
Let’s put some things into their proper perspective.
First, before shifting the blame for RCS culture on “the G.O.” (a favorite Miscavige enemy line generality), note that the G.O. was divided into five (5) bureaux – Intelligence Bureau, Public Relations Bureau, Legal Bureau, Finance Bureau, and Social Coordinations Bureau.
Second, before jumping to pin the issue on LRH, know that Guardian Orders could be proposed by any Guardian Office staff member.
Thirdly, before concluding all G.O. staff were trained to be liars, note the title of the subject issue, INTELLIGENCE SPECIALIST TRAINING ROUTINE – TR L. Obviously, this is from a Guardian Order written for Intelligence Specialists (operatives), which accounts for why Rinder and personnel in the other four bureaux never saw it before.
Fourth, if one IS going to have an Intelligence Bureau with undercover operatives (and the G.O.’s Intelligence Bureau was touted by independent observers to have been one of the most effective in the world), wouldn’t one reasonably assume that they would necessarily need certain skills required to remain under cover?
Fifth, before fast-forwarding to 2006, know that in 1982 when the G.O. was “disbanded”, ALL G.O personnel were given the option of joining the Sea Org. And those that did were mostly subsumed into OSA as the only personnel training in Dept 20 activities.
Sixth, as in Rinder’s (former) case, having been depersonalize by the hierarchical paramilitary autocracy unique to Sea Org culture, no specialized training was required to adopt its hive mentality. Only one’s tacit agreement. It is THAT culture which enabled G.O. Intelligence Bureau extremes to metastasize, pervade and pervert the RCS into the hallmark of cult culture.
Lying is a solution to a problem. An intelligent person can think of problems to have that wouldn’t drive one into lying. Even people caught by the police for murder usually confess. Why the hell should the Church have to lie on national television? Why can’t they just say, “Yes, we have disconnection.” They aren’t the only ones. The Catholics and Mormons do it too and they admit it.
Hell, there people out here that refuse to speak to a family member that has married outside of their culture or race. It’s rampant. My husband went through years of hell for marrying an American. His own mother said she couldn’t relate to our children because they were Americans, and she felt she could not connect with them on any level.
If people, “wogs” will confess to murder why can’t
Miscavige own his abuse? People say he is a tough guy but that man had been coddled since birth. He won’t walk in a Scientology Organization among his own people without a back up crew. He surrounds himself with people who are not allowed to fight back or even speak back. He sent a crew of ladies and an elderly man to stand up for him on television. He has no idea what kind of world we live in. Or what kind of world Sea Org members live in. None. He is tripping all the time. He is living the childhood of the last Manchu Emperor. As a child he wheezed to dominate others. He invents the needy and then dominates them.
He doesn’t need his people running around dabbling in domestic terrorism, what kind of optimum solution is that? He doesn’t need to take someone’s money based on fraud, and then fight in court for the right to keep it and put in no exchange. (Garcias).
Anyway, I guess Hubbard pulled him in after he wrote the lie tr ing?
What staff member pledged to lift mankind needs to learn how to lie? I don’t know what Hubbard was thinking when he wrote that. He could have just paid his taxes and spared everyone. He was greedy with money and generous with knowledge. We aren’t criminals, leaders of countries, secret agents, spies and all that. The lot of us are very ordinary folk with very decent purposes. What do we have to lie or apologize about?
He died with 480 million in the bank (I heard) that he did not need. DM has spent BILLIONS on things he does not need to do his job. I don’t think he has ever given the staff a Christmas gift. I know he arranges bonus’ for his private crew up at Int and lavish birthday parties for his friends. He is an actor. A ringmaster. A slave driver and a pimp. A con artist and a coward.
I can’t wait for the person who bought an OT8 9 and 10 package to show up in court claiming fraud. I can’t wait until he is ordered to produce OT 9 and 10 in a courtroom, to prove that he did not swindle thousands and thousands of people of money. That is what will hit his plate next. WHY are these things on his plate? MONEY MONEY MONEY. He will buy himself a 72 dollar million office building to work in yet he won’t pay someone for the pleasure of torturing them with domestic terrorism for four years, or refund someone’s money who he will never put in an exchange with.
I ask you, are these optimum solutions either?
Bear false witness.
1) What is the greatest LIE ever told to you on the whole track?
We will keep the porch light on for you.
2)What is the greatest LIE you told another on the whole track?
I’ll be back.
3) What is the greatest LIE others told others on the whole track ?
You are a home owner!
4) What is the greatest LIE you made yourself believe on the whole track ?
“If I loved this way once, I can love this way again.”
Oh God, did I laugh myself into a frenzy. Thanks Karen.
It is easy to lie if one feels seperated from another (I am scientologist, they are WOGs, PTSler, SPs, Psychs, dumb, idiots, ashholes etc.). If compassion would be taught and the truth, that we are all connected then that is a totally different thing.
But isn’t that THE problem in society in general? Customers get lied to e.g. on cigarettes, food, medicine etc. as most companies don’t really see the connection except it is their own child or themselves …
That was so beautifully said I had to cry. Thanks for your compassion.
Absolutely gross. This should not be in church doctrine. Its really said how LRH must have gone so far from his earlier goals (as stated anyway). Yes, I would do as Steve suggested and send it out but with out the entire document with it’s author … these guys would not read it.
And why isn’t David Miscavige off doing the same? Why is he never, ever announced anywhere or in any publication with his case or training level? Because there’s nothing to report? How ironic in an organisation built to around training and processing.
Steve Hall, it hasn’t yet been established as a true fact that Ron Hubbard actually wrote that.
Michael A. Hobson
I never read this TRL either, although I had heard of reporter TRs.
I grew up in the cadet org with no compunction about lying. Was it in the culture or a way to survive? I used to be very good at lying. Sadly, I lost the ability getting off my O/Ws later on and ended up the opposite – feeling compelled to tell the truth and being unable to lie.
thoughtful says further on down one should feel outraged reading this and if one doesn’t something is wrong with them. I feel nothing, so maybe something’s wrong with me? Or maybe that part is still numb, or I still think anything goes to save Scientology’s butt. Who knows. This issue, as it stands, just is.
It’s good to see it published, though. Church members use it’s principles against each other, whether they ever read it or not.
“OMG, I had HUGE gains on that RD!!!!!”
“Oh yes, I’ll be at the event.”
“Oh, I’m afraid I’m busy – other side of the country, I’ll be sure to come next week.”
“Yes, our stats are up.”
“Well, we found they were down but we found the OTVIII SP secretly messing everything up.”
They believe their own lies, too. Funny.
Hey Mike, as you can also read what I said ” perpetrated, allowed and promoted.” I put in these words with the possibility that he did not initiate TR L.
But to say he did not know, allow and approve of it is in my opinion denial.
No name attached? We all know now why that is. It is black ops stuff. And he did not want his name assiciated with him being a liar.
And taking into account the fact he lied about his past, his accomplishments, it is reasonable to conclude that Ron saw a great value in lying. Lying is Scientology MO.: Lientology
And seeing agreat value in lying he created standard tech to enhance it.
It is not so far fetched Michael. He wrote Bolivar and Fair game. Both of these are immoral and indecent. Actually TR L is much less dastardly than Bolivar.
Ron is source. He loved bkack ops stuff. It was true for him that lying worked. And he wanted to share his great findings with his black ops thugs. To share the joy so to speak.
Teachers teach and students learn. The students learned well.
Another name for black ops thugs are : willing hounds, people who are viscious and incompetent, GO/OSA: the most ethical people on the planet.
Traching your willing hounds to lie is kindergarden black ops stuff compared to implying/teaching to protect power by murdering enemies and not bothering the power with details.
To attempt to disassociate Ron from this writing Michael is cognitive dissonce.
My God, I hope I’m not diluting this great word, but it applies in spades to the Scientology experience. It explains so much of why intelligent good people cannot criticize Ron.
Try putting this craziness on Ron and you become the object of discussion. Somehow it becomes the critics personal flaw, the critics anger, the critics hate, the critics inability to forgive.
Implanting students to be convinced that critical thinking is associated with evil is another great psy ops accomplishment for Source.
When my posts about Ron mean nothing to you, cause no reaction, button flat, it is possible the cognitive dissonance has dissipated.
It’s not necessary to consult the confidential parts of Scientology “scripture” to find a kind of philosophy of lying.
From HCOB of 1 April 1955:
“A datum is an invention which has become agreed upon and so solidified… When it is thoroughly agreed upon it becomes, then, a truth… The word ‘lie’ is simply an invention with a bad connotation… the society frowns upon the invention of facts.”
PR Series 18 presents many examples of handling with lying:
“The CIA tried to hire me once. Said they’d shoot me if I didn’t join up. Cuba it was. I was a sugar salesman… See this scar on my left leg? (Pulls up pants). Batista’s cop shot me because he thought I was CIA,” etc,
“STATEMENT: ‘I hear those people stole some rowboats’.
REBUTTAL: ‘Who said so?’
STATER: ‘The dock master’s son’.
REBUTTAL: ‘Oh him, gets things wrong. OUR rowboats were stolen! With all the gear in it. We were out fishing and…say you don’t suppose HE stole it do you? Did you ever hear of him stealing anything? Has he got a record?’
Well, the dock master’s son will now ‘have a record’ in the stater’s tales.”
They are many other examples.
You know Michael, I have no idea who actually wrote the TRL issue. I was just a lowly auditor when I was in. But I sure remember being shown the TRL issue by the Org’s Ethics Officer, no less, when I questioned the EO about why a senior management person (obviously, to me) lied at an Event.
The EO showed me, among other issues, that one on TRL, and explained to me that it is OK to lie if it is “For the greatest good across the dynamics”.
I’m not sure if you are simply questioning the authorship of this TRL issue, but to me, who cares? It was obviously known and applied by many in the COS for decades, and no doubt still is being rigorously applied. How very unfortunate.
Thank you. While reading the TR L I immediately thought on Tommy Davis…you can bet he was trained on it. Now, knowing this material does help to know the enemy, as per the Art of War.
Lies have never been, and never will be good ammunition to fight with; they always backfire on those who use them.
I just completed reading “Siddhartha” by Hesse. Very interesting parallels between his journey and my own as well as many of my friends’. In and out of one rabbit hole after another. I got a lot out of the book. One thing was to simply recognize you are going into a rabbit hole, that you went there of your own free will and don’t forget where the exit is.
I was doing some internet searches on a few things of interest and came upon this, from a 2007 Huffington Post article:
“In one of history’s more absurd acts of totalitarianism, China has banned Buddhist monks in Tibet from reincarnating without government permission. According to a statement issued by the State Administration for Religious Affairs, the law, which goes into effect next month and strictly stipulates the procedures by which one is to reincarnate, is “an important move to institutionalize management of reincarnation.” But beyond the irony lies China’s true motive: to cut off the influence of the Dalai Lama, Tibet’s exiled spiritual and political leader, and to quell the region’s Buddhist religious establishment more than 50 years after China invaded the small Himalayan country. By barring any Buddhist monk living outside China from seeking reincarnation, the law effectively gives Chinese authorities the power to choose the next Dalai Lama, whose soul, by tradition, is reborn as a new human to continue the work of relieving suffering.”
Some people’s rabbit holes are deeper than others.
“It’s a trap not being able to prevaricate.”
L. Ron Hubbard, Philadelphia Doctorate Course
Have you read Hubbard’s 1950s letters to the FBI?
Hubbard didn’t wander very far from where he started.
I think the most evil thing Ron accomplished in Scientologists is equated being critical and being evil.
This is the penultimate in brainwashing, and the justified motive for the take over of intellectual sovereignty.
And when intellectual freedom has been squashed, so has conscience, so has morality, so has decency.
The next step, the applied step, the demonstrated step of being mentally raped, is to feel that hurting others to advance Scientology is for the greatest good.
The greatest good is no moral device, no ethical proceedure.
The greatest good as a computation for motive has no accountability to common standards of decency.
It is the value system of the person using the greatest good which determines if it is truely ethical and moral.
Brian Thomas Lambert
Marty wrote: “David Miscavige has stacked the very highest levels of Scientology Inc. with former Guardians Office personnel.”
And for those who haven’t seen it, here is the RCS’s public statement (lie) on the matter, still being stated today 12/19/2013 at this link:
The Foundation of a New Era
Nineteen eighty-one was also the year of important administrative changes …
… in July of 1981, a new era dawned in the Church. The group of dedicated Scientologists that uncovered the GO’s misdeeds and out-ethics put an end not only to that but to the GO as well. The GO’s leadership was removed. Those who had instigated wrongdoing were expelled. The Guardian’s Office itself was disbanded entirely, and a major reorganization of the Church’s corporate structure was implemented…
Amazing Les. Thanks for sharing that.
I agree with thougthful. Infuriating. While I was only in for 6 years and didnt contribute shit compared to everyone else in this forum; it’s when I see posts like this or posts about Hubbard and Parsons or Hubbard leaving his wife to get arrested for Snow White that makes me regret having anything to do with SCN.
Spreading vague, unverifiable defamatory rumors is certainly not the trait of an angel. That you are not one is probably the only bit of truth in the above.
Michael A. Hobson
“Don’t change the word, just change the definition of the word”
-L Ron Hubbard
I think the first approach to questioning Miscavige is to give him a copy of TR-L and ask him if he ever saw it.
He will say no
Then give him a copy of the TR course and ask him if he ever saw it.
He will say yes.
Then use your lawyer skills to trap the rat with cheese.
Brian wrote: “It is the value system of the person using the greatest good which determines if it is truely ethical and moral.”
Brian, that is EXACTLY what the philosophy behind Grade II and the fundamentals of Scientology state. And the sad thing is, you know that that is true. But your perspective is so out of whack — because you have collapsed the organizational policies into the underlying philosophy — that you have actually convinced yourself that the underlying philosophy is without integrity and value.
Hubbard’s motive, during and after the Briefing Course in the early 60s, was the survival and protection of the philosophy and techniques. That was it. Did he write some pretty lousy policy to accomplish that? Yeah, he sure did. But does that devalue everything else he said and wrote? Of course not.
Life and people do have nuance. They can be both great and brilliant in some areas, and imperfect and blind in others. As much as Hubbard felt he was a great administrator and manager, he wasn’t. But he was smart enough to separate out the two subjects (tech vs admin), and make it abundantly clear that there was a separation.
Frankly, imho, it was Ron’s biggest blind spot that back in the 60s he didn’t let WW get through their growing pains and continue forward autonomously. That he then created the para-military authoritarian Sea Org and “slammed in ethics” (as though that even had any place in Scientology) as the solution to slumping growth, was the beginning of the end.
Does that make him evil? No, it makes him inexperienced on the subject of effectively leading a free group through rough spots. And probably, imho, too experienced in the ways of the military and war.
But he certainly recognized the distinction between underlying philosophy/technology vs. group management/policy. And he made that distinction as clear as anyone could make. My God, he even color coded the damn things!
Yes! I can confirm that it is a true publication. I read this and drilled on it before, and it didn’t make sense as it goes against the “no lies in Public Relations” policy, the ARC Triangle and policies/bulletins on that, and more.
Thank you for continuing to expose the criminality behind the displayed facades of alleged goodwill and integrity.
I hope these secret GO/OSA documents are being provided to the courts as evidential documents in the current lawsuits. This is all part of the culture and mode of operation of the so-called “church” and its “officials”. It wouldn’t surprise me that every lawyer representing the reversed Church of Scientology get drilled on this before showing up in court.
There are many examples of Hubbard, usually confidentially, instructing Scientologists to use deception.
Hubbard had excellent TR-L. He used it on his own followers for decades. Have you heard Hubbard’s lecture where he goes on about being a nuclear physicist and being asked by the Manhattan Project to assist them in building the atomic bomb? It’s flawless TR-L.
Last week, the confidential issue, ‘Intelligence Actions, Covert Intelligence Data Collection’ was featured here. Hubbard’s name was not on it. Do you think he was the author of it?
Deception is the first tactic of war.
What’s startling is not that Hubbard had been covertly at “war” with the “wogs,” but that he seems to have been covertly at war with Scientologists also.
That drill which teaches telling the truth Steve is called being moral, having a conscience. Any common run of the mill church lady will tell us that. Actuall my mom taught me lying was not good.
Sometimes I wonder what Ron’s childhood enviRonment was like. It is quite possible that he was severely abused.
Why would he feel that making stuff up would help him. Can you imagine if Ron really had self confidence? What good he could have done with his insatiable urge to know?
Lying, cheating, betraying, punishing people is how Ron dealt with the world.
I would truly love to know what went on behind the smoke screen of his fanciful PR that he revealed as his highly educated mom.
Owing to the massive lying he did in his self created PR, I would bet Ron was an abused kid. With a self image that demanded he lie to be seen as ok, valuable, by the public, it seems to me to speak to an early psychological deficit caused by a less than sane home.
Just look at how he conceptualizes the family with the GE is a family man and families are not a great group for thetans.
His spiritual world view/cosmology, seems intertwined with a dysfunctional view of family.
Maybe Ron was an abused kid. Who knows, but it is rational to ponder it at least.
Yes, wasn’t it LRH who said, “Never use lies in PR?”
The law gives them nothing, although they will try.
The Dalai Lama will leave instructions. Interesting times.
These documents highlight the activities of the Guardian Office and Office of Special Affairs between 1966 and 1995, and illustrate the similarities between the techniques used by the two agencies.
The Guardian Office
(All of the following are from the GO’s confidential Intelligence Course and were released to the public by the US District Court for the District of Columbia, following the conviction of the Operation Snow White criminals.)
Policy & Public Statements
The Office of Special Affairs
I ask you, can you say in all honesty that L Ron Hubbard was a faithfull husband
I cant help thinking of these song lyrics by ColdPlay
which seem to describe the current state of leadership of the COS:
It was a wicked and wild wind
Blew down the doors to let me in
Shattered windows and the sound of drums
People couldn’t believe what I’d become
For my head on a silver plate
Just a puppet on a lonely string
Oh who would ever want to be king?
I hear Jerusalem bells a ringing
Roman Calvary choirs are singing
Be my mirror, my sword and shield
My missionaries in a foreign field
For some reason I can’t explain
I know Saint Peter won’t call my name
There was never an honest word
When I ruled the world
Okay, It is in THIS interview
Thou shal not…………other peoples something
Thanks for sharing this information. I always wondered where the data that a “shore story (lying)” was appropriate to cover up anything to save the Church’s PR. I learned that early on as a Public. Lie to your family. lie to your neighbor, lie to your boss when it comes to Church stuff. All the lies were the greatest good…. After a while you do not even think about it. Sad. And most people that get sucked into the Church think they are joining the most ethical group on the planet!
Thanks for coming back on board with this info! Hopefully, with you, Mike and Tony exposing the truth about Scientology, many people will find their way out of the Church soon!
Norwood wrote: “Have you heard Hubbard’s lecture …”
Yes, Norwood, I’ve heard it. And it’s not even close to your claim.
Have you heard the Hubbard lecture where he says he flunked nuclear physics? Or read the cover article in LOOK where he tells a national audience that he never got a college degree?
Have you read the Heinlein biography where Heinlein’s biographer details the work that Heinlein, Hubbard and other members of a think-tank were helping the highest echelons of the Navy solve the “kamikaze problem” that the Navy and War Dept were trying to solve?
Hubbard and his circle around this time did include members of the Manhattan Project, and it’s not outside the realm of possibility that he was offered some kind of job in this area. Heinlein’s biographer discusses a letter that Heinlein wrote in late 1945, pointing out that Hubbard was “organizing the scientists at CalTech”. And that actually aligns with Hubbard’s actual statements in this area.
What’s startling is not that Hubbard had been covertly at “war” with the “wogs,” but that he seems to have been covertly at war with Scientologists also.
Yes, certainly in the mind of Russell Miller and others, that is true. But when one actually goes and looks, I’m afraid the reality is much different.
Margaret!! Great to talk to you.
I agree with you, Scientology is not all bad or all good. Nothing is. I am for benevolent Scientology. I have even asked Marty for a good auditor in LA for a friend of mine who is OT7. He is enjoying his auditing.
I believe we are free to find knowledge anywhere we want, with whom ever we want, anytime we want.
But there are some psychological imprints, information transferences, learned biases and dangerous philosophies downloaded into the mind of Scientologists from it’s founder. Below are two responses from Marty’s blog on the Intelligence Manual that I wrote. I’m not sure if Marty wants to repost them. But I think these two make my case for the reasons I think the way I do regarding Ron.
First is my case for Ron being the cause of Cognitive Dissonance.
Second my case for the immorality of Ron
FIRST, COGNITIVE DISSONANCE:
Bingo Communicator. I believe that is part of the cognitive dissonance. In order to not see the indecency, a person has to separate out the good from the bad by creative mind juggling:
Maybe Paulette cooper deserved it
Ron was a little angry
he said he was only human
he is not a god
he had faults like the rest of us
leave a poor dead man alone
look at all the people he helped
it was not applied correctly
that’s not real scientology
poor Ron was a victim of so many forces
he didn’t have his case handled
critics have overts
how can he be indecent when my pc’s are having wins?
how can he be immoral when I realized I am a thetan?
He changed my life for good
I am not strung out on drugs, how can he be what you say, he helped me
Cognitive Dissonance: the presence of incongruent relations among cognitions that frequently result in mental discomfort. Ultimately, individuals who hold two or more contradictory beliefs and perform a contradictory action or reaction.
1)We are the most ethical people on the planet vs. kids in chain lockers
2) we are the road to freedom vs not allowed to have a critical thought
3) love despite all provocations to do otherwise vs ruin utterly
4) the work is free vs $1000.00 per hr
5) the orgs owe me money vs suit cases of it to off shore accounts
6) there are no absolutes vs the only absolute is flag auditing
7) Jesus civilized Rome vs Jesus was a pedophile
8) teach integrity vs sp declare for having it
Inherent in Ron’s dichotomous nature lies the freedom from it. Individuals must come to grips with both sides of Ron to be free from this cognitive dissonance. There is no other way.
The only way out is the way through.
SECOND, CASE FOR IMMORALITY:
SKM, things I believe are immoral:
1) Being married to Mary Sue and hitting on Yvonne 2) Lying about his past 3) Telling his daughter Alexis that his mom was a prostitute 4) Using up Mary Sue and discarding her like a used rag 5) Nurturing violence in a young naive impressionable boy: DM 6) lying about orgs owing him money while suit cases of to offshore accounts 7) Paulette Cooper 8) Teaching against drugs and then having the largest drug stash that Otto Roose ever saw 9) Stealing other’s ideas and claiming them for his own 10) claiming to be the only one to save the universe
In these examples are hypocrisy, lying, greed, betrayal, child abuse, criminality, narcissism etc.
My views of Ron being immoral do not pop out of thin air because I am anti Ron, an SP, a religion hater, a Psyche etc.
My view of Ron being immoral comes from me observing the obvious. If you find it difficult to observe these obvious obviousnesses (ha ha a new word) then it is possible that:
1) you truly don’t know about these facts 2) you have been trained to not see them for fear of punishment or loosing your eternity.
So, it is extremely easy for me to conclude that the meaning of “we are not moralists” means what my definition implies SKM . Maybe he meant both.
But I think not as he, Ron, inflicted his own sense of ethics and morality on Scientologists. So once again we have a cognitive disconnect. The definition you are using to defend him is bogus because Ron did enforce his morality/sense of ethics.
Thanks for some perspective, Graduated. Very appreciated.
No, I think that Rons biggest mistake was that he would let you practice as you want without a license. He always wanted a control over the use of the technology, a monopoly – allthough he said in the PDC that it wasn’t safe to horde it.
Imagine a situation if he would be more permissive. “You did this course, do with your new won knowledge what ever you want. If you need more training, the door is open.”
Look at the havingness-scale? Why couldn’t he waste some students or clients so easily? What is this seriousness all about?
He established the Sea Org because he had no safe space left to go to. This was his safe-point project. And he needed a safe space in order to do what he was up to: Research, his own Auditing and the control over his corporations and its money flows.
In my opinion, instead of differentiating tech and admin, it is much wiser to differentiate the corporational stuff and the spiritually benefitial aspects of Scientology. There are plenty of the latter once the former is left behind.
(would not) in the first sentence.
I did read a reference by Hubbard once where he talked about having someone lie as a form of therapy. I can’t recall the reference though. Perhaps someone like Les, who seems to be very familiar with the writings, would know it. It was not a TR.
I can see it as a form of therapy in a process like, “tell me a lie”. Because that could get very, very funny and produce quite a few laughs. “The only reason I work is to support the government through my tax dollars”. Can you imagine looking at the I.R.S. agent auditing you, and saying that with a totally straight face?
I just got a ticket for speeding over Thanksgiving holidays, and a friend of mine who was sitting in the car with me, who is a cop from another state, started telling me as soon as we drove away how I should try to beat it and what to say in court to get out of it! “How strange”, I thought. It seemed so inappropriate for me to tell him I did something wrong, so I should just own it. This is a police officer after all! The cop was right to give me a speeding ticket, I am paying him through my tax dollars to keep order in the community, then I am supposed to give him a hard time for doing his job? How about I learn to pay better attention while I am driving? How hard is it to own that?
Anyway, in the Church false report = lower condition. I think it’s doubt. It is considered a mark of cowardice and betrayal to give a false report, unless you are unknowingly putting it forth because of false information.
How can you agree with these standards and then agree to be taught to lie elsewhere? As if the people outside of the Church, do not matter. And the society outside of the Church, do not matter. The point is in Marty;s post, this is part of the “tech” for people working in “special” affairs, and it is obvious they are using it. It is part of the culture and anyone out here can watch them lie, all they do is issue false reports and perjure themselves in courts of law. Whoever wrote the policy. The “member of the club” in “good standing” are in good standing with David Miscavive. It doesn’t matter what Hubbard said anymore, what David Miscavige thinks and says matters. You have crowds of people at events applauding Miscavige for being there to declare Hubbard an overt product maker and cancelling the certs of every auditor on the planet! It has gone into sheer madness! The Sea Org is on with hunts now to bring down the customers!
Frankly, I do not care what that that group is doing now or how they choose to live or if they choose to worship David Miscavige now, It is their right to worship David Miscavige or whoever they want. But they should keep their practices in their own pen and not step out here to spread this virus and enforce it on others.
We have rights they do not want, or own or have. We work and pay for those rights. We don’t want people lying in the courts and through the press. This is a different kind of society our here. And they DEPEND on it. The farmers, the fishermen, the doctors, the police, the judges, the “system” in general.
It is fine to point out that nobody has evidence of who wrote it, if that is true. But the point is that is is custom now in David Miscavige’s inner circle to think with it. And that is the point.
It is pointless for them to argue there is not disconnection, when there is a whole section about it in the ethics book they publish. In that same book it is listed as a suppressive act to co operate with the demands of civil and criminal law!
“Delivering up the person of a Scientologist without justifiable defense or lawful protest to the demands of civil or criminal law”.
“Lawful protest” does not = perjury. How are they supposed to “justifiably defend” domestic terrorism and fraud and domestic abuse?
This is part of the new “religion” by David Miscavige.
They follow whatever Miscavige decides they should follow. Meanwhile they support him while he flagrantly violates them with other suppressive acts.
Felony, blackmail of Scientologists, falsifying records, using Scientology harmfully to bring about disrepute, Issuing alter ised tech data, falsely attributing and representing himself as source, calculated acts to misuse and invalidate and alter is Scientology, alteration of check sheets, knowingly giving false testimony to imperil Scientologists, public disavowal of Scientologists in good standing, (I think he does this at every staff meeting), public statements against Scientologists, pronouncing Scientologists guilty of practicing standard tech, reporting or threatening to report to civil authotities in an effort to suppress them for practicing Scientology, mutiny, engaging in malicious rumor mongering to safeguard his position, severe breach of ecclesiastical and fiduciary duty, using Scientology for personal profit, calculated efforts to disrupt Church services or the flow of public up the bridge, refusal to allow staff up the bridge or creating blocks, blatant and willful obstruction of Church operations, violating KSW, tech degrades, musical chairs, with hold of vital information, spreading false tales to invalidate clears, on and on and on.
That people are supporting him in his suppressive acts is on them. It is the “new way”.
But they need to keep it in their own yard. The fact that he has created an ARCXen field , the rest of society has to take on as a burden and deal with.
He has become a pathological liar to the point that he issued a press release stating he has not been deposed in Texas. A big “F you” to the judge down there. Everyone out here is paying that judge to do a job through their tax dollars.
They lie. It doesn’t matter who started the idea, lying wasn’t even started in Scientology as a concept.
Hubbard hasn’t had anything to do with the Church of Scientology since 1987. The SOURCE on everything since then is the lot of US.
I am thinking about more and more. I think it is alright to lie if it entertains people. Writers and film makers lie and get paid good money. Perhaps on some level, it is creating a new reality. There must be many different dynamics to lying. Perhaps lying helps with creativity and imagination. I have never been “creative” in any artistic way. Perhaps if I did that TR I could unleash some ability in me? There may be a “white magic” in lying if people know you are lying and “pretend” to believe you if it makes them feel better. I think there must be something good to find in this TR if you have a good purpose for it. I still want to experience it. I am going to find a buddy to do the TR with.
Hubbard and Napolean said injustice recoils on those who deal in it. If you are telling a lie that contributes to injustice, you are dealing in something very unholy. Perjury is contributing to injustice. The purpose of a court is to deliver justice.
I am curious to find out if anyone who drilled on this had any case gain from it?
Unfortunately, L. Ron “I resigned in 1966” Hubbard, whose dirty tricks tech and programs were the basis for the GO, and who was the supreme (secret) boss of the GO, continued to run (secretly) Scientology and its dirty tricks operations, but now through the CMO (Commodore’s Messenger Organization.)
Very nicely articulated, Margaret. IMHO….
The sad thing is, the Sea Organization sees itself as “the ruling class” on this planet.
The “ruling class”, is the guy sitting behind the desk with a little hammer in the courtroom.
Lovely statement Margaret. Frankly musical on some dynamic. I love reading your posts.
I wonder about lying on the CDEI scale? If it is at “desire”, it can be creative. Down in the enforce band, it becomes murky and debilitating. If it is enforced, it becomes an implant. If one is curious about lying, one can become a creative artist.
Excellent video. Yup – another day at the ranch. Anyone can look up the censes results in the US on goggle and find out the scientology membership is falling quickly. In 10 more years it will be nothing at it’s current rate of decrease. I just say a report on LA County teenage drug use – mainly marijuana and it’s getting much worse. The church must simply make up these figures. And to listen to that hype is actually enturbulating the way the pictures roll out. Oh and I like your stage – an old parking lot or something ha! That should be the OSA offices. 🙂
Oh well, the cognitions about the abilities gained. You had me laughing.
I would never regret being “in Scientology.” The permanent personal gains I received are priceless.
It’s right there in FOT.
If you have a PC who wouldn invent/create something, let him at a lower level tell a lie about it. Lying is the deepest form of creation. (This is not the exact quote.)
But this was a approach to open the case and not meant for real life situations.
Hubbard says a case with with holds will not clear. Ordering people to lie or with hold valuable information equal to lying, is asking them to be involved with Scientology with the purpose of clearing yet making sure it does not happen. It is a suppressive act to ask someone to lie or have with holds.
I remember listening to a lecture in which LRH says lying is therapeutic. He was referring to people who can’t withhold and who compulsively have to tell the truth. I believe the process was, “Tell me a lie,” as you suggested. an example was that you could say, “I saw an elephant walking down the street today.” It was something like that. Personally, I can see how this would be helpful to a compulsive “truth teller.” It would give the person more spiritual freedom. Now, he can tell the truth because it is within his integrity to tell the truth, not because it is a compulsion.
Anyone who wishes can Google NUCLEAR PHYSICIST L. RON HUBBARD and take a look at, and have a listen to, the video which begins, “A long long time ago…”
Hubbard lied, repeatedly, why rationalize it?
You are funny Oracle! I used to run into bears in the woods when I was a kid and catch really big fish! I was embellishing I would say for entertainment purposes. But I did run in to bear. I may have had the distance a bit off 🙂 And the fish were pretty big especially when my dad had to help me reel them in. Then there was the mountain goat I had to chase for a day to shoot and hike down 2,000 feet to recover it where is rolled ha ha. I got it from listening to my dad I’m sure. He used to take me to the bar and feed me beer and then bet the guys I could not stand on my head for 10mins. True – ok maybe it was 5. Oh and send me shimmying up the boat pole to change light bulbs for the fishermen. That’s true but I think it only happened 2 times 🙂 There are lots of ways to lie – check out the data series.
And have fun with your drill 🙂
Theta beyond the reach of a person like Hubbard (or me)
The founding liar was Hubbard. He established the memes and the patterns that continue to this day.
…but it is rational to ponder it at least.
Yes, ponder away. Might not hurt to actually look at reality once in awhile too, but no harm in pondering.
There is no evidence that he was abused, though the society he grew up in (especially in a somewhat-Christian military family), certainly upheld the idea that the Man was in charge and the Women were “from the rib of Adam” and to obey their man.
Ron’s pre-Dianetics life was pretty adventurous. Not the “greatest man that ever lived” and bestest and mostest of everything he ever did (which was often portrayed as such in the bios from the CoS), but it did have its minor accolades. And Ron was certainly not the sneaky, conniving, evil con-artist that has been portrayed by others. His interest in trying to plumb what made men tick was genuine. As was his effort to help.
Ron’s own descriptions of his life (in his lectures) are actually pretty accurate, and though he did often leave out the negatives and he did try to put certain events of his life in the best light possible, this is a far cry from lies or cons.
Ron did have self-confidence. And it was authentic, and it came from a deep well of spiritual insight and experience. Had he had some real-world experience, prior to Dianetics, in managing actual (non-military) groups, it would have served him well. But throughout much of his pre-Dn life, he was either out on his own as a freelance author or he was surrounded by a very authoritarian group structure — the military. And to him — and frankly, to the rest of the nation — that group structure served the US well, and I do believe it made an impression on Ron. Unfortunately. Because it never served Scientologists well.
I think we all hoped that the group called Scientology would be better than that. We all hoped that Hubbard’s chiding of the military in his lectures and references, would carry over into his own policy for the group. But when it came down to it, he chose to use that exact structure of top-down militaristic command when he created the Sea Org. Big mistake, as is now (and has been for many many decades, imho) pretty obvious to most.
But this doesn’t make Ron evil. And it doesn’t make him a monster. It simply makes him wrong. He also wrote some pretty common sense, benevolent policies (the majority in fact), and had an experienced leadership taken over in the 1960s or after his death, emphasis could have been placed on the fundamentals of Scientology and benevolent policies, instead of the Bolivar-esque ones.
The thing that Brian, and others like him, are obsessively in denial about is the following: group structure and admin and all things political ARE NOT Scientology. They are an after thought. They are the lowest of importance in Scientology, and have nothing to do with what draws people to the fundamental subject, the philosophy or the techniques of auditing. And keeps them interested.
Good news. It’s color coded!
Red = good, possible, interesting.
Green = “Proceed with Caution”.
With all that said, I am well aware that real lives have been ruined by the “Proceed with Caution” part. Families have been torn apart. Lives have been lost. And the monster called the RCS is like a Godzilla ravaging all in its path.
So criticize Hubbard for his lousy policies and organizational choices, but remember too that he created a tremendously passionate body of work which really is what Scientology is all about in the end.
Nah, Koch Brothers
He established the Sea Org because he had no place left to hide.
Taxes from the UK, false claims of healing from AMA and FDA and all the rest. Some real world nemisises (hell of a lot of s’es in that word) and a host of invisible forces fueling paranoia.
This is my observation too…”Once you decouple the Tech from the GO and OSA mentality of RSC paranoid psycho-politics, the Tech stands free of the RCS.”
Margaret, I wish you would write a book.
Sorry SKM, my last post was not in response to, your response, from my response. Ha Ha. I did not follow the lines properly.
I see your point. You feel that is was the hoarding of the tech and not having it be an open source that was the biggest mistake.
Regarding Cognitive Dissonance — this gets back to my points on Mike’s blog. Why do you see it as “cognitive dissonance” in Scientology and Ron, but are able to recognize context and judgement — and ultimately resolve the contradiction — in other subjects like Christianity/Jesus and Buddhism? Because believe me, if you’re looking for them, the contradictions are there. I mean that sincerely.
First, there is a stark, well-defined difference between the philosophy/auditing vs. the organization/policy in Scientology. You know this. And nearly all of your complaints are on the organization/policy side.
By pretending as though no distinction was ever made, and combining them into one big bad subject, you immediately come across as not being honest with yourself.
Ron built an enormously compassionate and sane body of philosophy and techniques that has helped many. And THAT is Scientology.
And then he built an administrative body to deliver and support that.
He clearly was much better at one than the other.
Ron was trying to build a “tough dedicated group” in the Sea Org. He was instilling discipline. I’m not arguing that this was the best way to go about advancing Scientology (or even that creating the Sea Org was a good idea), but that was both his stated and obvious motivation — not a desire to be cruel. Just as I don’t think Jesus was trying to be cruel when he exploded in the temple. Or how some in Buddhism both in the past (and even now) attempt to instill discipline with what some would call cruelty.
And “not having a critical thought” is BS, and you know it. Have O/Ws and “no criticism” been taken to an extreme by the organization? … hell yeah. For staff. And SO especially. But no one ever cancelled the Auditor’s Code, or Code of Honor. Nor the Data Series and endless other references that talk about self-determinism, personal integrity, observing the obvious, etc. WHICH FORM THE BASIS of Scientology.
And with regard to Hubbard’s morality, I have been searching for the last two+ years for Hubbard’s “lies about his past”? Guess what. You’ve been lied to, but it wasn’t by Hubbard. It was by those who weren’t willing to crack open a dictionary and look up terms like “actinic” from his Navy record. Or actually take a critical look at the supposed research of Armstrong or Miller.
And yes, when Hubbard broke some bones I’m sure he had plenty of drugs to subdue the pain. Just like I, and I’m sure most Scientologists, use when in the same boat. But of course I’m sure you believe that he was strung up on street drugs. After all, that faunt of credibility — Nibbs — told you so.
And I hate to break it to you, but Hubbard’s almost-second wife (Alexis’ mother) was jumping from man to man at Jack Parson’s house while callously insulting the women she just deposed. Though “prostitute” sounds like a pretty nasty way to describe her, she certainly wasn’t some innocent angel either. Not justifying Hubbard’s words towards Alexis in later years, but knowing the full picture does make a difference.
Did Hubbard make a pass at Yvonne, while married to Mary Sue? Yeah, he may have. I give you that. And he allowed those early, bohemian SO member hippies to jump around from bed to bed as well. Seems he didn’t institute the crack down on “2D ethics in the SO” until much later.
The rest of your points have a combination of validity and lack-of-context. While DM was certainly groomed by Hubbard to some degree, DM also brought plenty of evil to the table all on his own. Yvonne, Heber and Mike (Rinder) were also “groomed by Hubbard” and somehow I suspect that things would be much different in the CoS if any of them had taken the reigns.
Regarding “stealing other’s ideas” … that’s a stretch. I know the late Alan Walter really really wants us to believe it … and I do think that Hubbard could have remained more generous in his recognition of others … but ultimately, the most core ideas and techniques of Scientology are Hubbard’s. Others may have helped, some may have been inspired to create additional ideas which were added to the overall body. But the underlying inspiration and the most fundamental ideas in Scientology were developed prior to 1955, and they came from Hubbard. I think that’s the bottom line.
There really is no defense for what happened with Paulette Cooper. And equally Gabe Caseres. This was the Sea Org run amok. We simply don’t know how involved Hubbard was in these, but these were undeniably the events that brought down the G.O., Mary Sue, and ultimately Hubbard to a large degree. In the grand scheme of things, on the organizational side, Hubbard blew it.
Evil? I don’t think so. Made mistakes? Yes. He gave it his best shot, hoping to avert the mistakes of other isms and ologies. And ended up making some doozies of his own.
Thank you Anita.
Thanks TO. You’re making me blush.
Margaret, awesome post.
The exact quote is:
“LYING is the lowest order of creativity.” FOT
You mean “The Story of Dianetics and Scientology”? I’ve listened to it. Probably most have here as well. Point me to a single lie.
I hate to break it to you, Norwood, but even Lawrence Wright was agreeing with the veracity of most of Ron’s anecdotes in “Story of Dianetics and Scientology” (Wright blew it on the most relevant parts of the Navy stuff, and a couple other things, but Wright pretty much confirmed most of Hubbard’s claims for the events in his life leading up to WW II).
SKM: “He always wanted a control over the use of the technology, a monopoly – allthough he said in the PDC that it wasn’t safe to horde it.”
It was a tough call by Hubbard. Good intent, imho. Bad execution. He was trying to take responsibility for his creation. But I think he overshot, and ultimately made it far too restrictive.
It seems he struck a good balance in the second half of the 50s. He had the organization give auditor certifications, made a few snarky remarks about those splintering off doing their own thing, but he took a mostly live-and-let-live approach.
I think the attacks and court cases during the 60s made Ron feel that he needed to clamp down on things. And he overcompensated. A more experienced (civilian) manager, imho, would have responded differently. He had a really excellent manager and leader in Reg Sharp at St Hill, and should have allowed Reg and the other execs to evolve the organization as they saw fit. When stats crashed, instead of allowing the execs to solve things, Ron stepped in by sending his first “Sea Org Mission” to “get in ethics” … and Reg saw the writing on the wall and walked out.
Ron would later try to beg Reg to come back, but Reg never did. It was a real loss for the organization.
Very excellent post!
“The thing that Brian, and others like him, are obsessively in denial about is the following: group structure and admin and all things political ARE NOT Scientology. They are an after thought. They are the lowest of importance in Scientology, and have nothing to do with what draws people to the fundamental subject, the philosophy or the techniques of auditing. And keeps them interested.
Good news. It’s color coded!
Red = good, possible, interesting.
Green = “Proceed with Caution”.
“So criticize Hubbard for his lousy policies and organizational choices, but remember too that he created a tremendously passionate body of work which really is what Scientology is all about in the end.”
Cannot be emphasized enough.
Please, if we could just change your comment “Islam does this too, for example” to “Extremist Islam does this” or “Islamic extremists do this” or some such. Otherwise, it’s like saying “Scientology does this”, when it’s really “official Church of Scientology [for the most part’ does this”.
Really appreciate it if you can consider this.
Thanks, Margaret. And well done to you on delineating the identities, similarities, and differences with such clear articulation for the historical record here and on your site. I second the idea that you should write a book. As it stands, the B.S. from both extremes, combined with an near total omission of the impact of the incessant international psy-ops campaign run on Hubbard and the CofS over the decades of its formative years, would preclude posterity from putting things into perspective, from drawing important rise and fall lessons from this group’s case study, and about the wider world of the dominant healing oligopoly.
“Cat Daddy”, you are citing Skip Press as the source of your claim that Hubbard was “making his moves” on Yvonne (approx. at 13 min mark) on the Apollo ?
Are you aware that Skip Press was never on the Apollo, never even met Ron Hubbard and therefore is merely passing on hearsay rumors – at best ? You’ll have to do better than that, amigo.
Whether Hubbard was guilty of infidelity or not at one or more points in his marriage to Mary Sue Hubbard, you have not even remotely proven this particular specific accusation.
Michael A. Hobson
The founding evolutionary Naval Intelligence Officer – from that perspective, I agree with you.
Too funny! I was a bar fly too as a child. Great place to grow up! I think I am too serious about telling the truth. Bearing false witness seems like a very dark form of sorcery though.
I can see that people lie to themselves frequently, and even they don’t lie to others. But I think if you begin to lie, you will lose your ability to see the truth. And that would be akin to going blind.
Thanks all, yes this sound very familiar.
“Compulsive truth tellers” may not have a handicap. They may have other concerns.
Those involved in magic are compelled to tell the truth. Or you lose your magicals. If you lie, you lose your ability to see the truth. That is like going blind.
If you lie to someone you push them from KNOW to NOT KNOW. That is suppressing them. We did not get into Scientology to suppress our fellow man, the idea was to lift ourselves and others. People pay a price to lie, both the liar and the believer. They both become degraded a little bit. Better to skirt an issue or be silent than to lie.
If someone asks me if they are too fat I say no. No matter how much they weigh. Because too fat means one died from obesity. If you can take your next spoonful you are not too fat yet. There must always be some thread of truth. People can tell the truth and still with hold. Who is too decide what is too fat? If your body kicks off because of over eating, you fed it too much. Most people can agree on that. And besides, I like fat people.
All power comes from your credibility. When you gamble that, you gamble your power.
I would think, “Tell me a lie” is something you would run on a pathological liar to get them to cognate on what they are doing.
I chanced across someone who lied continuously and I finally ordered them to lie. Being ornery disagreeable and cross, they turned down the volume on it. Only to disobey me.
When you lie you are giving someone a wrong item and wrong indication. That is running “Can’t have the truth”.
There is much I see and know but do not say, during the day in my travels and my work. I can with hold and not lie. Words are to facilitate purpose. A purpose to mislead others is a harmful purpose.
Look at the ARCXen field. Think about it for a minute. Is there any Church or Company you can think of with so much ill will from it’s customers and employees? I can’t think of any that compare.
No matter how many buildings David adds to his real estate portfolio, the ILL WILL has devalued the Church to a fraction of what it was worth when he grabbed control of it.
as others cried.
We stepped upon
the trodden and ugly
then, not feeling
At pyramids we
stepped on slaves
as they built
we destroyed a
better way, giving
those not much
to say but abide our
We who used
for merry mirth
of those less rich
Return to find a
mother blind, who
hears no cries
This is a post about Scientology.
There is a term that I needed to come up with some years back that explains, to me at least, what your communication fits well with.
The term is Non Culpability By Comparison. It means that a person attempts to use the logic, or in my opinion not so logical, by comparing one thing for another somehow the original complaint is somehow less culpable.
Wife says,”Hubby, you didn’t do what I asked you, you said that you would do it!”
Hubby says, “Wife, I asked you to do something and you didn’t do it also.”
Here is the husband, tying to avoid culpability by comparing his broken word with hers. This way, we never look at Hubby’s opportunity to grow.
Nothing ever gets resolved if he thinks like that.
Margaret, you keep bring up Christianity and it’s dark side to somehow lessen Ron’s culpability.
Or you tell me I am not being forgiving, or somehow my personal ability to see straight is clouding me.
You try to lessen Ron’s culpability by comparing it to something else or bringing up my flaws.
We are not talking about me or Christianity, or Buddha or his followers.
The husband will never get the opportunity to learn to grow regarding keeping his word if he is always deflecting with Non Culpability By Comparison.
The wife should have said,” Ok hubby, I got that, but we are not talking about me now. We can talk about me after we talk about you as this issue is the first one brought up.
That is my experience of your argument Margaret.
We would prefer to give up the with hold than to lie.
That is why the magic travels on this side of the fence now.
We are the noble ones with magical abilities.
David has become a book editor entrenched with needy slaves and beggars.
I think of him as the Merchant of Menace.
So we can agree to disagree. I think you are wrong, not a character judgement. And you think I am wrong with character judgements of me.
There is still some attacking qualities left in you. In my opinion.
That is my first character judgement to your ten. That will be my last.
Peace out Sister M
No. I can’t say he wasn’t either. Either way, I’m not the dick police. If he was or wasn’t that doesn’t change what is true for me. I couldn’t care less where he dipped his wick.
Is this a pass on TR-L or…?
Margaret, if you want to believe that Hubbard was repeatedly asked by the United States government to work on the secret Manhattan project to build an atomic bomb and, each time, refused, and, each time, was sent, as punishment, into a dangerous war theater in the Pacific, then go right ahead and believe that. I don’t want to burst your L. Ron bubble.
But it *was* meant for real life situations.
All you need to do is look at what Hubbard did, and what he (sometimes secretly) instructed other to do, to see that he used the “tech” in any way that served him. That same type of amoral expediency was built into Scientology from the earliest days forward.
Yes Brian, I think his flow 3 on games was not as flat as it should.
This was actually a havingness issue.
From this also stem his conviction, that he somehow needed to “sell” Scientology to prospects. He not only wanted fast results but a fast dissemination as well. This created a lot of problems.
To be simple, my opinion is that Ron had mental problems and was immoral.
And it is those elements that are inculcated into the technological and organizational fabric of what is called Scientology.
His paranoia became organizational policy and technical policy.
You see him more as a victim of external forces.
I see him more as a victim of his own internal forces.
I consider him a sort of Howard Huges of philosophy.
At times brilliant, but a bit batty as well.
That is the essence of my criticism.
I think that 60 years of LRH mythifying, hero worship, Ron clapping and Ron quoting, has produced a bunch of stupefied followers and a quite dangerous religious cult.
At some point Scientologists need to wake up and grow up to the fact that mind and reality belong to each one of us. It is about us, not Ron.
“Truth has nothing to do with words. Truth can be likened to the bright moon in the sky. Words, in this case, can be likened to a finger. The finger can point to the moon’s location. However, the finger is not the moon. To look at the moon, it is necessary to gaze beyond the finger.”
7th century Chinese Zen (Chan) monk
Thanks, Oracle. Two points: I agree “Tell me a lie” could work on pathological liars, like “Deliberately stutter” can work on a stutterer.
2nd point. LRH stated in an axiom, “if a problem persists, there is a lie on the line.” Example, a husband can’t figure out why his wife won’t get in comm. She keeps saying nothing is wrong, but the problem persists. Finally, he finds out she has been cheating! Voila! No more problem. The truth sets one free.
That’s right at the beginning of the PR Series. Soon thereafter, Hubbard explains that there can be “PR of PR.”
As one continues reading, one discovers that “Never tell lies in PR” was “PR of PR.”
The main point is not to be truthful, but to “get away with” whatever one is asserting, at least long enough to obtain the desired objective.
Also, covert Intelligence can create a “truth,” such as the “truth” of Paulette Cooper having been arrested by the FBI for making bomb threats and, then, a PR person can use that “truth,” and still be “telling the truth.”
It’s a tangled web.
And, per ‘The Art of War’, deception is the number one tactic. It may be discovered after the battle is won, or the territory taken, but, by then, it’s too late.
Hubbard was about tactics, not about being nice.
Natural Born Fool
Margaret, you said:
“It was a tough call by Hubbard. Good intent, imho. Bad execution. He was trying to take responsibility for his creation.
“It seems he struck a good balance in the second half of the 50s. He had the organization give auditor certifications, made a few snarky remarks about those splintering off doing their own thing, but he took a mostly live-and-let-live approach.
If he wanted a good execution of his creation, he could have it without going after splinterers. Everyone with a certificate was a auditor with some skills. Let them audit as they want. If they want to guarantee the highest results possible (and let’s not forget that research of technology was still work in progress until the day LRH left this lifetime behind) they become members of the HASI and submit to some rules. If the don’t want, let them do what ever they want – concentrate on your own business and if you do your business good, there should be no concern about competition. Competitors just wouldn’t be able to call their practice Scientology (you make it a rule befor one applies for the course) and if they do, you have a solid base to bring them before the law. But this would be a no go anyway, because Scientology already has become a religion – so how can you prohibit another to apply some techniques in order to help people gain spiritual betterment?
You see what the game was he was trapped in?
I believe Ron had the approach to help people with his findings. He just had a hard time to market it, because some of the things were unorthodox, eccentric and in some instances even ahead of his time.
Today it’s very much different. Humanistic and Transpersonal Psychology is not the same kind of “psych stuff” we had in the late 40s and 50s.
I think he wanted to reach as many people as he could while his research was still in progress and he didn’t know how to handle it.
That’s why it’s much wise to differentiate corporational stuff and benefficial technology (because there is some green on white wich can be helpfull for the livingness of individuals) as opposed to differentiating tech and admin.
But not as presented in the book. The book describes a process.
Oracle: ” If you lie, you lose your ability to see the truth.”
Yes, because it creates a blind spot in ones integrity.
I think it was atempted humor
I figure he worked with her at Celebrity Center.
People tell eachother stuff you know. It is called communication
From the 2D book pg.145, How to Live with Children, from New Slant on Life.
“When you give a child something, it’s his. It’s not still yours. Cloths, toys , quarters, what he has been given, must remain under his exclusive control. So he tears up his shirt, wrecks his bed, breaks his fire engine. It’s none of your business. How would you like somebody to give you a Christmas present and then tell you, day after day thereafter, what you are to do with it, and even punish you if you failed to care for it the way the donor wishes? You’d wreck that donor and ruin that present. You know you would. …………..This “possession” is another channel by which he can be controlled. So he has to fight the possession and the controller.”
Spiritual enlightenment and a child’s toy or cloths are not the same thing. But there is the principal of giving and making something your own that applies directly to both, as we have plainly seen play out over the last 40 years.
When someone gives something that they themselves consider valuable, there can be an almost irresistible desire to keep control over it and the receiver Ron considered Scn. tech to be the most valuable thing possible. Coupled, or justified, by his recognition that all valuable knowledge in the past had been later altered, often to unworkability, often intentionally.
What he missed, was that the principal of releasing what is given so that it can truly be owned by the receiver is of greater importance than possible alteration.
Now that this error has been recognized and relevant principals assigned their proper value, the problem can be easily corrected and we can move on. The original writings, along with subsequent events should be preserved for future reference.
Problem solved. Simple.
Thnank you for making me LOOK
“Yvonne Jentzsch was not so lucky. Hubbard sacked her as head of the Celebrity Centre she had founded, even though the organization literally put Scientology on the map with the Hollywood community. She’d gotten people like John Travolta involved, and John adored her. The problem was, Yvonne had lived for years on two to three hours sleep a night and had developed a brain tumor. Hubbard probably didn’t want to foot the medical bills. He announced he was “promoting” her to create and run the “Public Relations Organization” which would promote Scientology all over the world. What he didn’t announce was that he didn’t fund her, and Yvonne was put in the embarrassing position of literally begging for donations to survive.
When she died, Hubbard issued an edict that Yvonne was still a member of the “Sea Organization” (people who signed billion-year contracts in dedication to Hubbard) and that in her next life when she reached age 21 she should report in for duty. Travolta and other celebrities never knew the real story about Yvonne; it was kept from them, as other horrors of Scientology are kept from its celebrities today.”
Excellent post Margaret. Couldn’t agree more.
Correct. And when you assemble the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle, you’ll see the picture.
FOT was essentially a PR dissemination particle. That doesn’t mean that everything in it was false, only that it had the purpose to disseminate Scientology.
Hubbard was sneaky.
Goes to character, hitting on the wife of a “Friend” makes for a dickhead of a man
Ron is NOT your friend, was never a friend to anyone ever
Excellent comment. I have used the principal of Non Culpability by Comparison instinctively to straighten out situations in the past but never put it into words.
As I continue my work, I find that I am increasingly able to see each individual piece of data in it’s own space and time. Data and occurrence will relate and compare to a second datum. The whole, then becomes a third piece of data on it’s own. As a thetan is fully an individual, fully 100% itself, and it is theta, fully and wholly. It is both.
He. “You didn’t do the dishes.” She. “You didn’t mow the lawn.” Three separate pieces of information are available here.
I didn’t read the comment to which you were responding to and do not agree or disagree with what may have been said.
This bit of knowledge stands on it’s own.
There are many examples, in Red on White, of Hubbard deceiving Scientologists, or of his providing just plain terribly wrong, or crazy, information – information that is presented as “fact” and “tech.”
Per 1950 DMSMH definition, in all these 60+ years, there have been no Clears, and, per the 1950s and 1960s definition, there have been no OTs.
What has happened is that a billion+ dollar flying saucer cult has been established that gathers groups of people together who applaud a giant picture of science fiction writer.
You see this as a justification for Hubbard’s actions. And its not. I’ve already pointed out that I think he made some mistakes. Some doozies. But I think you have a double standard. Because those you put on a pedastal — and attempt to understand, and forgive — you don’t describe as evil or liars. Even when far more vicious behavior, and much larger mistakes, are pointed out as having been done by your heroes.
The illogic is inherent in your argument. It’s a double standard.
Good points SKM. Becoming a “church” was a double-edge sword.
Oh good Lord, I’m not even going to respond. Go on believing the make believe strawmen that you’re swirling in, Norwood.
LOL. I mean, really.
I have come to some conclusions, which I retain the right and ability to change.
Ron and everyone else had, has, a case. Undesirable errors. Some of the things he created were affected by his case and contained errors. I DON’T BELIEVE A SINGLE WORD HE EVER SAID. I HAVE FOUND MOST OF HIS WORDS TO BE ACCURATE AND WORKABLE IN PRACTICE. Studying his insights and working with his methods have brought me up to the point where I can go back and evaluate and decide what is true and workable for me. It put me in a state to discover new, hitherto unknown data. Scn. to me , has great value. Perhaps the greatest value of all is the ability to evaluate and recognize which parts do not have value.
I have decided that in order to achieve the goals of Scn., I must take on the role of researcher, equal to and surpassing the work of Ron and his predecessors. I’m just beginning. It’s getting really fun.
I thank you all for your assistance. Don’t stop.
ARC and more,
The best, and most honest (imho), bio I’ve read on Yvonne is here:
It does give some additional detail on what Yvonne thought was Ron hitting on her, but unfortunately, it doesn’t give the source. However, the level of detail (and overall quality and neutrality of the article) makes the rumor a bit more credible, imho.
Cat Daddy, then you figured wrong. When Skip Press as at Celebrity Center, he was Central Files Clerk in basement. He went from there to the PAC RPF. He never “worked with” or even associated with Yvonne Jentzch beyond, perhaps, seeing her at muster.
Michael A. Hobson
Plus, he really did feel that he was AT WAR. And the FOIA public records later indicated that he essentially was.
Amazing, Margaret!!! You are so right on. Your facts are right in line with what I read/saw/participated in/observed/concluded – and then some! Thanks for taking the time to write all this and share your perspective and knowledge.
You knew her personnaly maybe ?
Who is dergrading now lol
Gloves are of , so you just judged somebody too low on the human scale to have ever a descent conversation with Yvonne
Like L Ron Hubbard confided in Sarge could not Yvonne have confided in skip
Because he or she is not a threath to your position and not out for your blood
Psychology my dear Hobson
Margaret, Your research, documentation AND historical perspective are impeccable! I don’t have time to read all of the posts on all the key blogs all the time, but every time I read yours – I conclude you are head and shoulders beyond others in your knowledge and assessments. I used to pride myself on knowing a lot of what I will call the inside history of LRH and Scientology, the various “wars” the Church was involved in and so on, but you’ve got things down many times over what I logged. Plus, you take the time to express, handle originations, and give citations. Mostly, I just have to skip over the goofy, ill-informed, and sometimes mal-intended things people bring up – I don’t have the patience to deal with them even if I had the detailed recall of things known in decades past.
You are a treasure!
Cat Daddy, the way it works is that if you hold up somebody as an expert witness, I get to impeach the “credentials” upon which their expertise is supposedly based. In the case of Skip Press, I have done this. My information comes from somebody who was on the PAC RPF with Lloyd “Skip” Press posted as a comment on Ginger Sugarman’s Facebook wall linked below (you will probably have to Friend her to view it). Evidently you are not able to refute my statements or you would not be making personal attacks on me instead.
Michael A. Hobson
I am sorry I have to say, he has those eyes when you drank the other day.
XXOO to you both from a loyal fan!
Well, it’s not a matter of “case gain”. More a matter of usefulness for SPECIFIC circumstances. There is a DIFFERENCE.
• One time while covering for Quarter Master (reception) at the Hollywood Guarantee Building, an IRS agent came in, with badge and gun under his left armpit, looking for someone who no longer had an office in the building. This man was smack in the 1.5 Anger tone band, relentless, with a really wickedly nasty entheta space around him. Massive O/W case. For _THAT_ circumstance, I found the TR-L drill actually helpful to me while alone with him in the HGB lobby. For lack of other training, it helped! In the Sea Org, we sometimes got thrown in a figurative cage containing hungry lions and tigers, with little to no training. Our job was to “make-it-go-right”.
• I also found it helpful in the streets of Los Angeles, and in Gardena, where the local Jack-In-The-Box hamburger restaurant has double bullet-proof glass at the counter, and we must pass our money through 2 sets of doors, then get our meal the same way. Working evenings in that neighborhood during the production of the GAT 1 binders, I met some funky characters. Sea Org members didn’t carry weapons (except Jeff Porter). Thus, speech and TR-L came in handy – for THOSE circumstances only, NOT the way OSA corrupts it all, and uses it as a WAY OF LIFE against good Scientologists, and the world at large. I hope this is understandable.
Well, all books of fiction are lies. That makes Charles Dickens, Shakespeare, Victor Hugo, Ian Fleming, Stephen King, etc. all liars then. The Flintstones, Wally Gator, Ricochet Rabbit & Droop-a-Long were all fiction. That makes Hanna-Barbera liars too. I was at *Curious* on the CDEI scale myself for these cartoon shows as a child. I am between Inhibit and Enforce with Shakespeare, and definitely Inhibit with Stephen King.
Margaret, my beef with that Bio is that there is no bibliography and almost none of it is properly sourced at all. Therefore, it is quite impossible to confirm or refute many of the specific claims, such as that one.
Michael A. Hobson
It is more on the order of Theater and Improvisation (improv) skills, role-play, etc. taught in schools around the world. I got case gain from doing Improv as a teenager at school. It helped overcome my timidity. (I was not forced to write a Success Story though so, better case gain)
Once again, it’s a matter of recognizing DIFFERENCES, not the A=A=A=A OSA and Fundamentalist-Radical-Scientologist mentality.
Michael, that was one point I made to the author as well. It needs much better sourcing. Despite that, it comes across as pretty neutral and so it’s hard to ignore. But yeah, it would be helpful to know the actual source.
Evidence of an organized campaign (if there was one) against Hubbard and the early organizations is definitely an important missing piece in this whole thing. Marty alluded to it in his last book, and it sure would be nice to get the raw documentation. There were Garrison’s books, but I didn’t find them very well sourced unfortunately.
Accurate and well-written, all your points in both of posts above.
Personally, I greatly appreciate your opening statement: “First, before shifting the blame for RCS culture on “the G.O.” (a favorite Miscavige enemy line generality), … That is how I see it as well.
I concur that a book by Margaret would be very valuable.
The process in the book is a process.
What ever else you interpret into this book – the process is a process.
Live with it.
The evidence may be in the 7600 pages of government documents that were placed under court seal in 1977 in the FOIA litigation. Those documents were the basic on the FOIA string-pull chain of the dirty tricks and disinformation campaign. When the court was just about to release them, the FBI raided U.S.G.O. and G.O.D.C. with sledge hammers and chain saws. Judging by that reaction, I’d say those docs must have contained the smoking gun. Seams like they’d be available public records by now after all these years, if they haven’t been destroyed.
Thanks, Leonore. Maybe you and Margaret could collaborate on that book? I know you have a wealth of first-hand data and neither of you seem to have any other fish to fry than candid historical accuracy.
Of course dear Hobson
I agree Miraldi, Margaret should write a book. I have read 4 books on Hubbard. Margaret is the only person I know that diagrees with the findings of Ron’s past being a fabulist’s delusion.
Also the scores of people that knew him and related how he made up stories.
If all of the people and 4 books are wrong and Ron was all these great things, then I think she should take full responsibility for the public record and finally bring truth to this mess.
Brian (and Marildi and others),
It’s the age old Hagiography vs. Strawman dilemna. Each side trying to exaggerate the truth. Hubbard was neither perfect nor a charlatan.
I’ve already researched some of the more controversial parts of Hubbard’s Navy years, and webbed them here:
More will be coming in the future.
I understand your point. However, let’s compare Christianity and Islam on this factor — not the radicals in either but the source of their holy scriptures.
Christianity in its various Bibles (and Judaism, in the Torah) has a strong prohibition against lying. It is voiced as a commandment.
Islam in the Quran and other supporting scriptures, has a general prohibition against lying, but makes exceptions based on certain contexts. It thereby encourages a sort of situational ethics, similar to Scientology.
For example, in Scientology, it would be wrong to lie to and auditor or ethics office or Committee of Evidence. However, it would not be wrong to lie to the press, a court, or other agencies if the lie was for the “greatest good of the greatest number of dynamics” — in practice, that means if the lie protects Scientology’s interests.
Similarly, in the Quran, it is clear you would not lie to fellow believers. But non-believers are almost a sort of fair game. The “misrepresentation” permission is known as taqiyya. A Muslim lying to protect Islam or the Quran is definitely not seen to be committing a crime or a sin. The parallels to Scientology ethics are very obvious.
While not all Muslims will apply taqiyya (any more than all Christians always avoid bearing false witness), the specific point regarding Islam is what the sacred scriptures permit, along with other authoritative sources such as the hadith.
The broader point I was intending to make is this: Scientology is not the only religion that encourages an us vs. them worldview that permits harm, stripping of rights, and lying to non-believers.
“But non-believers are almost a sort of fair game. “
I don’t agree on this point. Muslims lived side by side with christians and jews for centuries in some places. They didn’t treat other-believers equally, but this is common to many other religions, too.
Margaret, I read that article of yours when it was mentioned on a previous thread, and it’s another example of why I thought you should write a book. Great to hear that more will be coming in the future! And maybe you’ll eventually put it all into a book.
By the way, at about the 1:00 minute mark, Skip Press is introduced as a “former executive at the Celebrity Center”. Central Files Clerk is not even remotely an executive post on a Scientology Org Board, so the interview was not even started and he already lied.
Michael A. Hobson
Good posting Eddie.
J. Swift says…..
“Mike, what you say sums up the serious problem faced by everyone in the RCS: They want the Tech and yet they are forced to accept the entrenched culture of lying, dishonesty, and brutality in the RCS to get the Tech. ”
Just sit back and think about that one for awhile. Could there be a bigger, more insidious trap? It locks up right there as two equal and opposing factors. It’s the Orwellian double speak.
If the C of S were to tell the truth, this is what their promo would say:
“In Scientology, we offer TRUTH. In order to receive this glorious truth, you must LIE. Lying continuously, you will naturally move progressively further and further away from truth — further even than when you first knocked on our door so seeking.”
“Your lying, being so connected to the truth you seek, will never be recognized by you. Viewing your prevarications as the only way to truth you attach them to truth itself. In other words, the LIE will become your TRUTH as you officially swapped one for the other.”
“To distract you, we will offer you confessionals but you will never relieve yourself of this hellish burden of deception. If you begin to see the lie, for your own preservation you will self-censor in your frantic fight for a place within the group — to live, unassailed by the loss of all your friends and your eternal soul.”
“So my friend, take heed before you enter. The truth you seek will forever escape your grasp for truth takes hold (and grows) only where living an authentic and genuine life is the primary goal.”
“So shall you decide to ignore our warning, let it never be said that we didn’t tell you this:
“For your constant and futile effort to learn the ultimate TRUTH — about the universe, life and yourselves — you will pay dearly but you will never, ever arrive because you, my friend, will have already decided what your truth is and your truth is a LIE.”
I didn’t believe Indie OSA existed and it was just a trolling Term
“In 1977 I was a staff member of the $cientology Celebrity Centre in Hollywood. It was determined that I was a troublemaker based on really nothing – my department had higher statistics than most, and we put the central files of the organization into “present time” (meaning that all the filing was up to date on a daily basis, which had never before been done in a $cientology organization, at least in the southern California area.
So I was given a choice of going to work with the $cientology slave labor force known as the Rehabilitation Project Force, which was concentrated at the former Cedars of Lebanon Hospital, a complex which is now known as ASHO and AOLA on (ridiculous) L. Ron Hubbard Way south of Hollywood, or I would be kicked out of the so-called church and declared to be a “suppressive person.” That was the standard choice given staff members picked for slave labor in those days. I didn’t have any friends who were not $cientologists – which the organization very carefully arranges for as many members as possible. I had alienated my family over $cientology. I had no money. So I chose to be a slave, slightly buying into the chance that I might actually be a messed-up spiritual being in need of rehabilitation.:
Hi Sindy, I posted something yesterday on my blog, http://anitawarrenblog.wordpress.com, almost identical to what you are saying here. “Cult of $cientology: Why I joined, why I stayed, why I left.”
Do you have hatred in your heart for Skip?
Yeah. And as we all know, those Indie OSA guys are all “Shameless self promoters”.
Interesting command. “Recall a time you illegally reincarnated.”
Why, do you know of any reason why I should ?
Michael A. Hobson
SKM: Thanks. You make my point. These behaviors are common in many religions, not just Scientology.
Thanks Anita. I will go read it now.
Thanks for posting that. The first paragraph of Skip’s article you cut and pasted proves – in his own words – that he worked in Central Files, as I pointed out previously.
Michael A. Hobson
Thanks Norwood. I didn’t mean to ignore you – I haven’t figured out how to get messages of responses yet.
No – I never read Hubbard’s 1950s letters to the FBI. Perhaps he didn’t wander but I would have never known that being on staff with no internet and forbidden knowledge.
Now, I am done with my research on LRH etc. I’ve deceided that Scientology pain and happiness is only a small part of my journey and what is important is my PT life and future and of everyone else’s too.
I’m done reading about LRH’s details and crying over the betrayal which he himself said other religions had done. How 1.1.
But in weighing out both the bad and good I still came out on top so no loss even with two of my darling children dissconnected which hurts every day. I still have more happiness in my life even if it’s just that the circumstances are less but the awareness is more. I can carryon and get better every day. And someday when I’m all healed I will be out there helping the rest like you.
Cece, below where you write your comment is a box you can check which states next to it: “Notify me of follow-up comments via email.”
But mainly I wanted to say how much I liked your post. Just great!
@Norwood: Here’s what Hubbard meant by that: http://youtu.be/ku69cBwyeF4
They are alive and well experienced different to your remarks
having been there at the time and worked along with both., They weren’t
totally as you place them to be.
Margaret, your efforts in trying to make LRH less of an asshole/liar/fraudster etc are admirable, and I’m sure you come from a good place – but the only people who will believe you are those who want to blame how disastrously the “church” has fallen on Miscavige, yet still choose to drink the Kool-Aid.
Have you watched LRH’s grandson’s comedy show or even an interview? Even LRH’s own blood know what he was and are embarrassed and ashamed to share his name. He created the religion to make money – he is quoted as saying that. Stop trying to make him out to be somebody who was ever interested in making the world a better place.
Great job on letting others know about this! I could never find any info on it when I would look around at old bulletins etc. I was starting to think that I may have imagined it. (LOL) But, I was put on this TR back in the late 70s when a situation came up regarding a Scientology/child custody hearing where I had to testify in court. At that time I knew it as “TR1-LIE.”
The first effort I ever put forth toward self improvement was TR-0. The first thing I learned from that was to look at things exactly as they are, without filters, fixed opinions, bank, whatever you want to call it. This included Hubbard and Scn. from the very start. I have carefully studied many religions, philosophies, sciences and methods. I cannot say that my work has been perfect, or that Ron didn’t commit several errors or even have some harmful intentions, but I can say that his work of gathering knowledge of the spirit/mind, and of creating a structured, methodical method of self improvement to be largely workable, if only a start. After 45 years of mindful looking, your opinions don’t match my observations.
If you have achieved significant improvement in life, tell me your gains and methods. I will quickly add it to my own. I have a lot to learn.
Thank you – wonderful you are so helpful! And thx. May all you give come back 10X in the new year 🙂
Marty, you omit to explain a very significant issue arising from the staffing of OSA and RTC with old Guardian’s Office staff-and Kendrick Moxon, the chief in-house lawyer, was one too.
The church’s application to the IRS for tax exempt status expressly represents, under penalty of perjury, that no former Guardian’s Office staffers remain as Scientology staff.
Clearly, this material misrepresentation to the IRS was also a lie, or was it just an ‘Acceptable Truth?”