Awakening – Part III



Awakening from scientology

Awakening – Part II

By now, some Scientologists might have suspected that I am setting the stage to redirect them from following L. Ron Hubbard to following David R. Hawkins.  In fact, while my third recommended reading assignment is Hawkins’ Power vs. Force, I would suggest to people at the outset not to latch onto Hawkins as they once latched onto Hubbard.

While Hawkins simply and eloquently describes states of consciousness above and beyond those contemplated in scientology (i.e. non-duality) a study of his arc of evolution finds him paralleling Hubbard in certain limiting senses.  Both found workability in utilizing simple true/false detectors of energy connected with thought.  Hubbard’s of course was the e-meter.  Hawkins’ was the use of applied kinesiology.  Both chartered and described the realms of higher states of awareness and consciousness discoverable by disciplined utilization of those thought-energy tools.  On the other hand, both became so enamored with the efficacy of their tools that they lost the plot.  First, by buying into the infallibility of their chosen mechanics, they in some ways dragged spirit/life down to the mechanics they used to explore it.  Second,  by overvaluing the adoration that the workability of their paths engendered, they succumbed to the seduction of guru status and the debilitating judgmentalism such positions breed.  In a word, both ultimately eschewed the aforementioned lesson of the Tao that permitted them to discover what made them so popular in the first place.  Power vs. Force is a very good read because it betrays little of those ultimate Hawkins failings – aside from the absolutist terms with which he promotes kinesiology.

A signal, critical difference between Hubbard and Hawkins is that the former attempted to force the world to accept his ideas and created a slave cult to accomplish that.  Hubbard sought to command whereas Hawkins sought to teach.

Hawkins is recommended  as a good first exercise in comparing scientology to data of comparable magnitude.  You are likely to see independent validations of some core scientology principles and practices.  You are also liable to begin to see the limitations of one’s scientology-controlled thinking.  Power vs. Force can at once reinforce what of value one may have gotten from his scientology experience while piquing interest in other potential horizons beyond it.  The latter are written about in a modern, mysticism-free manner in Power vs Force.

Another important distinction between Hubbard and Hawkins that makes study of the latter worthwhile for the scientologist is that Hawkins recognized – as does the traditional eastern wisdom I repeatedly suggest people devote some study to – the crippling effects of clinging to personal identity; ego.  Power vs. Force also recognizes the value of graduating from constructs, as summarized here:

In overview, we can see that from time immemorial, man has tried to make sense of the enormous complexity and frequent unpredictability of human behavior.  A multitude of systems has been constructed to try to make that which is incomprehensible comprehensible.  To ‘make sense’ has ordinarily meant to be definable in terms that are linear – logical and rational.  But the process, and therefore the experience, of life itself, is organic – that is to say, nonlinear by definition.  This is the source of man’s inescapable intellectual frustration.

It is a lesson lost by many who have attempted to bottle and market the magical animation agent called ‘life.’   The most famous warning about that trap was summed up in one now-famous saying by Hubbard’s perhaps most important influence, General Semantics founder Alfred Korzybski, ‘the map is not the territory.’   Eastern wisdom has been communicating that in various ways for millennia.  More recently, advanced theoretical physics is validating it as demonstrable.  It is my observation that Scientology, applied exclusively as it requires itself to be applied, not only confuses the map for the territory, it has a tendency to convert the territory into the map in the follower’s mind.

In this book I am sharing my own journey toward recognition of the difference between map and territory and how I believe that that recognition can lead to broader spiritual horizons.  I am fully cognizant of the fact that there are many people who are more intelligent or more spiritually attuned than me.  What I see that I have to contribute to the mix is not necessarily wisdom or enlightenment, but instead the willingness to explore and communicate what a lot of Scientologists and former Scientologists have intuited but haven’t been willing or able to follow through with overtly.  Therefore, it is quite likely that at various points along the line you might find my assistance has served its purpose and lose interest in continuing to follow this particular trail of exploration.  It is after all only a map thus has served its purpose once someone is out of the ditch and heading in the direction he wants to go.

I think it is possible that by simply reading and contemplating the three recommendations that I have made in this introduction any individual is capable of graduating from Scientology in a positive sense.  That is, recognizing its map/construct nature, what one attained from it, and where one might turn to expand on whatever level of consciousness or awareness he or she got from it.  It might also occur at any given later juncture along the away.  The sooner one finds that point of departure – hopefully with a fresh, curious outlook – the better as far as I am concerned.

240 responses to “Awakening – Part III

  1. In a lot of isms there is a tedency to worship technique and make the goal secondary.

    A technique or process is not “senior to life because it handles life” as Ron said of Scientology.

    The worship if technique is the sacrifice of reason.

    Techniques are junior to life, because techniques serve, us.

    There is a technique, a practice, for everyone. One that suites our natural inclination.

    The simplicity of it may be not natural to the Scientologist. Because Scientology is such a vast complexity.

    The practices are simple, the success in practice takes time, according to our own thick headedness!

    But the results are magic

  2. Graham Berry

    Thank you for a very interesting post and analysis Marty. I am following your book and journey with interest. And congratulations on the recent victories in the litigation. Best wishes to you and Mosey.

  3. I am just me and only me. I learn from all directions.

  4. Excellent post, Marty. I think I would only question one point in it 🙂 – the first part of this sentence:

    “It is my observation that Scientology, applied exclusively as it requires itself to be applied, not only confuses the map for the territory, it has a tendency to convert the territory into the map in the follower’s mind.”

    Beautifully written too! Both clear and of depth.

  5. And, Marty, you are doing such a great service. I know you get lots of accolades. Here is one more. Thank you for your conscious evolution in the public square.

    Thank you for your service to others.

  6. I meant this part of the sentence: “…Scientology, applied exclusively as it requires itself to be applied…”

    It can be interpreted that that there is that requirement, or not, IMHO.

  7. Typo: the above should read “It can be interpreted that there is that requirement…” (“that” was typed twice by mistake).

  8. threefeetback

    So much for Hubbard’s labrinth.

  9. Ron also said that we have to run out Scientology, and that is what we seem to be doing.

    Scientology is what its is. It will continue to be what it is. At the same time one has to run it out of his system, so one can be himself.

  10. I can see how the territory became the map; is like in philosophizing hypothesis and theories some truths were then uncovered, communicated and worked out into a system/practice or therapy. However these got ‘limited’ to a certain end phenomena, which in fact acts as evaluation. By doing so they set and ‘end’, as specified by the originator of such theories. Thus, it prevents evolution; it poses a finite goal that “if you achieve it you will obtain such and such’.

    One, in accepting it, can’t transcend.

    Thought, spirit, awareness are like an eternal flow that has to be allowed to continue and obtain what the person himself envisioned to attain; no evaluation.

    Your willingness and communication are not only acknowledged, they are very appreciated Marty.

  11. From “THE ESOTERIC – A Magazine of Advanced and Practical Esoteric Thought” Copyrighted, 1891

    – excerpted from an article by Dr. J.C. Street:

    “Science declares that fire lies latent in wood, only awaiting some kindling touch to raise the flame. Even so does soul force and spirit life, love, wisdom, intelligence, lie latent in every form of Nature; and this divine spirit must work from within outward, herein the agnostics and scientists condemn the process, being fully unacquainted or prejudiced against the end of the process.

    The within is the soul and truth of the without. Man’s will can only act powerfully when united and remaining identical with the universal spirit; it must become attuned to the already existing universal willpower in nature. I again repeat, the will-power which comes from the brain is like the cold moonlight, it is simply a force with no power to warm up or awaken life; to warm up and renew life, man must use that love element or fire principle, of regenerate love that feeds the fire-body.

    The human body is subject to a double law of nature, male and female, and when the student will throw aside this outer material body, as his hypothesis,and learns to comprehend the difference between the objective and subjective man; the animal and the soul body, the outer and the inner being: to polarize either with the astral-magno or astral-force, he can have the might power of nature, and become the grandest of magicians. But the student must not rest here but press on. The student of soul-light finds the union of sex in its dual being is the universal form of God ; unselfish love the “universal force, and wisdom the guiding hand; marriage of the soul with spirit the universal result.

    The male element represents the energy, action, warmth, and productive principle in nature. The female element represents, the passive, maternal, and procreative receptive principle in nature, the union of the two in the subjective man is universal soul.

    There is no vacuum in nature; wherever a want exists there is a supply to meet it, for nature makes no demands she cannot fill: all true knowledge comes by and through nature; all things visible are effects of some hidden cause. The true soul-action is always hidden. The true growth is involution while evolution is the ever-changing shadow.

    Force, whether active or latent, is co-equal with substance. We must not remain blundering over the process, but the great object aim must be the end of the process. Most men desire to pry into the secrets of nature and occult science, to merely attain knowledge to be used for selfish ends. Only they who desire truth, forgetting self in the desire to do good, will receive that baptism of spirit, love, wisdom and knowledge of hidden truth.”

  12. I’ve just read your last three posts — wonderful work Marty! I find many parallels in my own journey into, through and from Scientology. Thank yous to the many contributors, so many sincere thinkers!

    Lately I’ve been examining Carl Jung’s materials, in particular his definition an differentiation between self and ego and his recognition of the existence of “charged complexes.” He also has a rich dissertation on the vital role of imagination and creativity.

    Thanks again!

  13. “Now, he was nothing but Siddhartha, the awoken one…”

  14. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian.. well said..
    Brian…”The simplicity of it may be not natural to the Scientologist. Because Scientology is such a vast complexity. ”
    E… most of the stuff written or spoken by LRH do not lead out the MEST-solid universe but buries the person under stinking garbage of significances galore.

    Brian; The practices are simple, the success in practice takes time, according to our own thick headedness!”
    E; yes lots of time, I am 74 and i been solo auditing since 76 and I have used the simple tech every day for the past 38 years. Scientology, the outline of the Bridge is not even a map… just on arrow and the tools are ”how to confront” and one simply leans how to address those items by asking a question and those are the shovel and pick.
    But Marty you are right about the guru bit.. one believes because one leanrs and see so much in session that one thinks and believes that one is above, beyond, more valuable, know more than any other person on this planet.
    But when one have notions grandiose ideas like that than those believes-considerations and agreements have to be confronted one by one in session.
    I give here a few; important, valuable, teacher, knows it all, having authority, better than others, great teacher, being a guru, admired, adored, looked up to, wise leader, sage clever, important chief, dominant, governing, [will take few hundred hours] have sessions on those 4flows than go for all the negative side those valances…feeling small, unimportant, low life, useless, and do the whole bit earlier similar on every question; never live out the O/W’s, I guarantee you that person wont be having power surges there is no ego left after all the valances are blown… yes.. it takes a life time.. but what is a life time here on this planet… nothing more than agreed upon reality and when those are erased as I have done that as Brian said ”BUT THE RESULT ARE MAGIC”.
    Yes, the result is: no valances, no self me or I left… one is no longer effect but one simply know… and to know the valance of any kind.. be anything or any one is not needed.
    the problem scientologist have is that they thought they have achieved the state on those levels to which they have attested: NO… the major cognition on any level is NOT THE END BUT THE OPENING DOOR TO THE EXISTANCE OF DIFFERENT REALITY.
    It is just the beginning.
    When I wanted to see you I wanted to come to attest., and I have realised you would not believe me, no one will and no one has… But some one had to be the first…The Tech works… the amount of work ahead each individual is huge… but what the hell it has taken immense amount of time to accumulate all that useless crap. [if any item-consideration erases than it was a lie, I only found few concepts which could not be erased]
    Best to you. E.

  15. Elizabeth Hamre

    PS: When I wanted to attest.. that too was a ITEM and was confronted, it had importance, because 3 years back I still had charge on the group, . But those considerations are erased and acknowledgement.. recognition not needed to ensure my reality. I thank you all.. for your realities..

  16. I like this post Marty. Thank you for helping people out of the rat trap of Scientology.

  17. Once again, Marty, you have found a way to successfully combine brilliance and sensibility. My admiration continues.

  18. I just saw a neat quote from the writer Anais Nin:
    “We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are.”

    So I looked for more, and found this, among many others:
    “Each friend represents a world in us, a world not born until they arrive, and it is only by this meeting that a new world is born.”


    So. This was right after reading your post, which had led me to wonder, is scientology just a map? I have a chicken-and-egg kind of feeling about this question. Which ultimately comes first – the map or the territory? Personally I feel it doesn’t really matter, in the sense it is not something I need to know. To the extent it has practical uses, who cares?

    It might be either, or neither, or both. One can adopt it as a map, a ritual object, as ‘sacred scriptures’, as an instruction manual, or whatever.

    Scientology may well be part map, part blueprint of the original postulates, kind of like architectural drawings, part confabulation and part LRH’s opinions.

    What is clear to me is the CoS has never encompassed all that Scientology is to me. Not even close. It is one tree in a forest, one shadow of the Real cast on the walls of the cave, by the flickering fire, to borrow from Plato.

    I think which came first, the map or the territory, is worth looking at. And it is looked at in some of LRH’s lectures, such as those in the 4th London ACC, which go quite a bit into the expanded Know-to-Mystery scale.

    Personally I am glad I did not get much involved with the CoS, but do not regret at all what acquaintance I do have with some of the materials of Scientology and the small exposure I had to some of the basic practices.

  19. Very well said Erzsebet.
    I have had to look at and resolve a few complexities to uncover the simplicities. I am just beginning to understand the simplicity of knowing without specific data or words or even thought.

    Yes it is a long haul. Much quantity. But it really does get more and more fun as it goes along. A wild ride at times. I look forward to looking for a long time. Better than reading John Gresham novels.

  20. Elizabeth Hamre

    Mark…”””Better than reading John Gresham novels.”” Lol…. much much better, In one session I went through one of the Black Holes.. what on incredible experience that was… The energy mass is so powerful that it has eliminated -burned away everything I ever known, the result of that experience caused total amnesia hehehe.. it has taken few hours of grunt work to dig my self out of that mass… 🙂 great adventure that was. 🙂 PS about simplicities.. life as I know it now.. which I would not call ”life” any longer have become a very simple affair since the bodies activity is separated from the reality of knowledge.. experience.. the must, the motivators, valances no longer existing.. really one only has the moment of creation-experience and even that exist if one desire to create. yet one has everything, total contentment… but if I want something to happen which has continuality that can be done too.

  21. Elizabeth Hamre

    Mark… when people will label you childish, simpleton, idiot, confused, when they attack you for no reason at all, when tell you that you don’t make any sense, tell you that you are banky, you are bottom of the tone scale and when they start to SEE THROUGH YOU.. like you don’t exist… than you know you are on the right track and the insults will become compliments because you will know you are no longer a normal person. 🙂 .

  22. From Vinaire’s blog:
    “Change is a fundamental of physical existence. Hmmmmm. Width, depth, height, and endurance. Perhaps change (motion) is fundamental to the principal of endurance. I’d like to meet the guy who came up with that and give him a piece of my “mind”.”
    Sorry, I shouldn’t stay up so late and try to write.

  23. The big problem is unawareness vs. awareness. Somebody is above my awareness level on a subject of life. He sees that and wants to help me. First attempt is telling me what he sees. Now he thinks that I have a closer look and find out. Or in other words my awareness about this subject increases to the level of the person telling me.
    But I reject his talk. I say, he is nuts. Does not exist. Whatever.
    So, first lesson, telling someone what I know does not work. Could end in a fight.
    Different schools of “enlightenment” use different tools to handle this situation. The E-Meter should undercut the awareness and register a little bit below the awareness level of the person. This is the basic theory why all auditing should work. Kinesiology is another tool. I know of other electronic devices that claim one way or the other to somehow enter the realm of the “unknown” like SCIO or TimeWaver.
    Would be a good thing to have a device or method that is easy to apply to “wake up” or be more aware of something. Everything would be acceptable if it works. Let us assume it works. But how it is applied?
    You have to look at some painful experiences. (traumas, past life stuff, charge, grief… not only in Scientology you have to “face” something you do not want to face)
    You see my point here? Lets say there is a method or device or whatever to wake you up (I consider this a positive experience) and now your attention is directed to negative stuff. Yes, we have to have a look at it as all this negative stuff is on our way to whatever good. Really?
    My idea, if my awareness about something lowers, goes down, then I cannot realize that my awareness had been higher previously. This is the basic mechanic why I can be unaware of something. If I could realize that my awareness level is decreasing then I could not be unaware of this in the end.
    So the key to being again more aware (awake) of something is not to dig in the dirt of pain and grief but to find those points in time the awareness level decreased.
    This does not “just happen”. This had been done. In case of Scientology this had been intentionally done. Otherwise no one would spend so much money. Would allow himself to work for almost nothing. Would not sleep for days or whatever.
    So, it would be a good idea to have a look at those points in time it appeared to you that you did agree to something by your own choice.

  24. martyrathbun09

    Are you addressing me personally, or using ‘you’ generically?

  25. Robert Almblad

    Thanks Marty for sharing your studies… it has helped me a lot.

    In addition to being a guru, LRH built an effective (destructive) “Intelligence army” to further his many laudable goals like the technology of auditing and training. But his army did not attract another guru to take his place. Instead it attracted the meanest bastard in the army that could effectively use LRH intelligence tech to kill off those around him. Once in power, he continued to use LRH technology against the rest of its members in order to enrich himself. That is sad and it is why the Church of Scientology is dead.

    The use of Scientology technology lives on, mostly outside the Church because that mean little bastard has got his fingers in EVERYTHING including “guru” functions like his latest: “lets have everyone re-do the Bridge” and pay again.

    Could the Church of Scientology have turned out differently if it was not for Miscavige? Could a benevolent monarch, guru or any of the LRH instituted committees have taken over and then all would be well in the Church of Scientology?

    I don’t know for sure, but I think it is in Scientology’s DNA to come a cropper (fail). Only the meanest bastard could possibly take over because: 1) he knows the tech and 2) he is willing to use it against his fellows. This would kill off any gurus, committees or benevolent monarchs.

  26. There are game makers, pieces in the game, and broken pieces. I think a major problem is that David wants to be the game maker, and wants everyone else to be a piece in his game. He finds other game makers very disturbing. He is not competitive, he is dominating.

    Other people have become game makers. Right here within the Scientology arena.

    This does not have to be viewed as a bad thing. It is actually dissemination. Why must there only be one game maker? And if I am not a game maker, I admit I have been a piece in someone else’s game. Because I have not been a game maker. I think the difference between me and a lot of other people, is that I don’t have a problem being a piece in someone else’s game, and owning that experience.

    The important thing for me is to know where I am and what I am and who is the game maker and how I fit into their game if I am a piece. Am I set up to win? Am I set up to lose? How the is the game maker using me as a piece? Who is the maker of the game? If it is not me, understand who I am.

    A game maker who sets more pieces up for a win than a loss, is a master at games. A game maker who sets more pieces up for losses, is an amateur player.

    For whatever reason I don’t fully understand, I have always been set up for more wins than losses. And I think it just may be because I include myself as cause, as a player in the games. No two players in a game are the same.

    I am awake. 24/7. And Scientology is not the beginning, and not the end either, to understanding who we are and why we are. This has always been open highway to explore, and it always will be.

    I have just closed my eyes again
    Climbed aboard the Dream Weaver train
    Driver take away my worries of today
    And leave tomorrow behind

    Dream Weaver, I believe you can get me through the night
    Dream Weaver, I believe we can reach the morning light

    Fly me high through the starry skies
    Or maybe to an astral plane
    Cross the highways of fantasy
    Help me to forget today’s pain

    Dream Weaver, I believe you can get me through the night
    Dream Weaver, I believe we can reach the morning light

    Though the dawn may be coming soon
    There still may be some time
    Fly me away to the bright side of the moon
    And meet me on the other side

    Dream Weaver, I believe you can get me through the night
    Dream Weaver, I believe we can reach the morning light

  27. I have analytically power, or I do not. And so does everyone else. What is “suppression” but an admission that I have been a piece in someone else’s game and I have been set up to be a losing piece as a player in a game? So, the thing is, when someone asks me to move into a position of being a “losing piece”, in someone else’s game, I just get it that it is time to look for another game where I can be a winner. Where I am not expected to be a loser to help the game maker “win” through my losses. This is where David makes grave errors. He expects some players to assume the role of losers and be quiet about it. But they never had this on their
    agenda. And it is not a roll they want.

    There are a lot of invitations in this arena to take the position of a loser. When a game maker asks that of me, I would rather leave the game. It is not in my nature to take on that roll. I have supernatural rights to survive and win without apology. When success stories are banned, whatever they are, I get it that the game maker is setting me up to be a losing player in the their game.

    Nobody should ever have to apologize for winning. “Someone who will die for you and more…………”

  28. Crashing Upwards

    Marty, I will get and read the book. You haven’t given me a bad steer yet. One of the lines of your post that stood out was; “the crippling effects of clinging to personal identity; ego.” On this blog we debate at length lots of material and definitions, etc. But understanding the trap or the way forward for an individual comes back to Ego and Pride issues. The relative value of any teaching or organization is whether it provides the light, guidance or support to rise above or move outside of them. Once an individual knows about his false self and can spot it, that is a gift, and they are potentially well on their way.

  29. The entire reason David is out to get Marty, and Karen, and Mike, is because he thinks they should be players in his game, and if not, broken pieces. These people are game makers. Really great products. It is him, that has become a player in THEIR games. The ones they choose.

  30. I have found good vid ,that explain our differences…. but it is going in nice direction….

  31. Hugh A'reone

    Valuable insight in any spiritual pursuit. Not just because I am a blown, public, Scio, but because it validates the sampling of truth that is inherent in any serious spiritual path.

  32. threefeetback

    Oops, labyrinth

  33. I will look at Power vs. Force when through with Siddartha. However, as we have freely examined some aspects of LRH’s work and possible intentions, and as it might simply be another invitation to judgement, I’d like to add these two (potentially unpopular) links as suggested reading after PvF.

  34. martyrathbun09

    Right on the money CU. I have a chapter on the stages of development (mental, spiritual, behavioral)- the subject of one level becomes the object of the subject of the next level. Pride/ego dies (as-is’s) at every stage – provided we continue to genuinely develop/evolve.

  35. I was so please to read your suggestion of David Hawkin’s work. I came across his work in 2008 and it really brought together so many pieces of the puzzle for me. Power vs force is great but his later book Transcending Levels of Consciousness I found to be even better and continues to be my go to self help guide as it masterfully guides you in overcoming what’s keeping you stuck at lower levels. While I’ve never been a scientologist I did look into it and compared to Hawkin’s body of work, the material always felt false and contaminated to me. I could never tell why, it just felt wrong. On the other hand when I first read Hawkin’s work my whole body just said YES!

  36. Crashing Upwards

    Looking forward to the book. Your survey, overview, evaluation and distillation of what’s workable in this area has enormous value to me, and I am sure countless others. Scientology as a methodology will no doubt be included, but the importance of this work is much greater than the need to include and evaluate any one practice. I am hoping for a real knock-out book. One that will be referred to for a long, long time. One that reaches every reader in places they can relate to and profit from exploring. I hope you really turn on the lights. Thanks again for your all your good works.

  37. Brian,
    Are you in the LA Area?
    If so, and you don’t mind to be contacted, let me know how to reach you.
    I want to pick your brain on a couple of things.

  38. martyrathbun09

    Thanks for that.

  39. Long-time, fascinated, non-scientologist lurker here. Mr. Rathbun, it has been fascinating following your development and a human being on this blog. I’ll try to keep this brief. I would like to know what role or place, if any, you, or anyone else who is or has been a Scientologist feels that Scientology has for the intellectually or developmentally disabled, and what does that say about this religion? I have an autistic son – he is brilliant, but couldn’t possibly go through the auditing process, attend countless classes, and go through all the other hundreds, if not thousands of hoops that it appears Scientologist must jump through? What of the intellectually disabled who may not be able to read or process the hundreds of lectures and memos? I think of other faiths – all you need to do in Christianity is “accept Jesus.” You don’t need to read, write, or study to do that. I believe that anyone can meditate, or be guided through meditation. In other faiths, one’s spirit must say “yes,” or, at least, “I think so.” It seems like there is such a premium on the volume of words in Scientology, on the performance and demonstration of what you know. Where does that leave those who are unable to participate in that way in the Scientology theology?

  40. I admit for a moment I was thinking you had set up Hawkins as the next best thing. I read Power vs Force several years ago and enjoyed his eloquent differentiation of power and force. Both Hubbard and Hawkins took themselves too seriously trying to hold on to the mantle of authority that others wanted them to have. Like Hubbard in his first book Hawkins says anyone can do it. For Hubbard it was auditing, for Hawkins, muscle testing, aka applied kinesiology. But seeing that others were not coming up with the same results Hawkins, in a similar way to Hubbard becoming “source”, was elevated to being the only person who could truly calibrate (muscle test) levels of consciousness.

    Though his writing can be inspiring it can also be dogmatic. Anyone who doesn’t believe in god is automatically lower on his scale. Walmart is the model business… high on his scale. When he said dolphins had a lower level of consciousness than Bill O’Reilly I knew there were cracks in the system;)

  41. martyrathbun09

    Reflects some of my observations. Great post.

  42. christianscientology

    Schorsch – what you write is very profound, the big problem is not unawareness vs awareness, it is AWARENESS vs AWARENESS OF AWARENESS. It is not enough to be aware that you are a THETAN it is necessary to become aware of that awareness. I have said it before and I will say it again, a thetan is theta expressing as an independent unit of life.

    However a thetan once it expresses as an individual unit starts to build a mind independently of THE MIND of theta. This separate mind then becomes a thetan’s home and they forget about the ONE MIND that they are one with in truth. Then by going into agreement with other thetans matter is created and a physical universe is made.

    Now all this is pretty much known throughout the various disciplines here on earth, but the single un-confrontable thing is the broken relationship between THETA and A THETAN. This relationship is so sacred that the only way to view it is in terms of a MARRIAGE. Both theta and a thetan are in essence PERSONHOOD but they have become estranged. Theta is the BRIDGEGROOM and a thetan is THE BRIDE.

    It’s as if the bridegroom is calling the bride through TIME AND SPACE but the bride has been hypnotised by M.E.S.T. and it is only when the bride realises the impermanence of “all these trinkets” she finally SUBMITS/SURRENDERS and starts her journey home to a place and relationship that in TRUTH she never left and lost.

    Love and ARC

  43. martyrathbun09

    Actually, the best program Scientology has to offer in my opinion is rehabilitating focus. There is a huge body of material and exercises on that score. The problem with dealing with a scientologist however is his likely propensity for converting that focus into control, continually focusing attention on bigger, created problems to solve for a hefty fee of course.

  44. Marty, could you please elaborate a bit on the program that rehabilitates focus? My only guess is TRs 0-9.

  45. martyrathbun09

    I don’t know why you characterize it as potentially unpopular. From a quick perusal it appears they are saying pretty much what I summed up in a couple of sentences in the introduction.

  46. It wasn’t meant to try and second-guess your view so much as reflect a fear of being pounced on by a true believer. It was probably an entirely superfluous remark.

  47. As a note, I’ve given thought to what really would be lost if Scientology were to be so discredited that it would become virtually unknown as a means not only to “consciousness or awareness,” but know-how in living. On the latter, probably at the top of the list would be TRs and the theory on communication. As far as I know there isn’t anything comparable, and I believe LRH was right about communication being the heart and essence of living in this world.

  48. `Scientology, applied exclusively as it requires itself to be applied, not only confuses the map for the territory, it has a tendency to convert the territory into the map in the follower’s mind.`/
    You wish!

  49. christianscientology

    That is very self-determined Oracle, and there is nothing wrong with that, but there is another game; the game where everyone wins. To play that game requires pan-determinism, and the only place to play it from is


  50. christianscientology

    Amen to that Crashing Upwards

  51. christianscientology

    Hi Aries

    I have just come across your post and I wanted to say Scientology works on all levels. You can even process an ailing domestic pet. There are many processes that require the P.C. to do very little, one that can be greatly beneficial on any one is “Give me that hand” only with a loved pet you might have to change it to “give me that paw”. The only thing required is that the person giving the commands must be well versed in the basics of Scientology and have mastered the Training Routines.

    P.S. I am a Christian and a Scientologist without the “and a” in the middle.

  52. christianscientology

    Right on Marildi


  53. “The map is not the territory” reminds me of something I used to say back a long time ago when I used LSD a few times. “Eat the food and not the menu”.

    Actually much of the stuff you are writing about such as “ego loss” also reminds me of what people like Leary and friends had to say about LSD experiences. I’m not suggesting anyone tries it but if you are tempted make sure you research it well beforehand.

  54. I am in LA, maybe Marty can forward my email address to you?

  55. Best to you E. I am so glad you have chosen to continue to post your experiences and insights. Thanks so much!

  56. martyrathbun09


  57. marildi

    Processes like “look at that _____ (name of object).
    Objective processes.
    Locational processes.

    Personally I would not recommend any training on the TRs in such instances. I consider them too introspective, and subjective.

    As an additional note I would recommend that in such cases these objective “processes” be done more as games rather than as “formal” events. You want to direct the attention more with interest than with “force”. Once you go beyond the person’s interest you have entered into the realm of being just another suppressor in his environment.


  58. Muchas Gracias

  59. Elizabeth, you are a spiritual warrior. You do some amazing work on yourself. Thank you for sharing with us your journey. What a journey it is!

  60. That sounds like a GPM to me. But my math skills are a little off the beaten track.

  61. Strangely, many people have never cleared the various definitions of the = sign.

    But per my calculations, willing effect = willing effect. Total cause = total cause.

  62. Elizabeth Hamre

    Maria… Hello to you… I am just passing time, I very much would love to drop this body… but when all the reasons-incidents agreements are erased how one can drop the body? If there is no age, one do not have ”life” one cant die, and illnesses are no longer affective which could separate one from the body, and this is interesting. “if there is no time, one =infinite has no location, and there is no inside or outside, being here or someplace else.. how the hell can part from if there is nothing to part from? This situation really puzzle me.. I have no idea how to ”die”.. I also have a reality KNOWING that I am not the only one who uses this body, calls her self Elizabeth Hamre and also this view I have about this body is mine alone yet I know there are many who has different view of this body. I have audited millions of BT’s and many-many clusters and I know these Free Beings do have their own viewpoints. So see my dear Maria, when one is in the universe where one no longer have valances it really don’t make much different who own what, or just how many has the same viewpoint reality. Experience is that.. just on experience… 🙂 never a dull moment!

  63. Oracle – Good post!

    “What is “suppression” but an admission that I have been a piece in someone else’s game and I have been set up to be a losing piece as a player in a game? So, the thing is, when someone asks me to move into a position of being a “losing piece”, in someone else’s game, I just get it that it is time to look for another game where I can be a winner. Where I am not expected to be a loser to help the game maker “win” through my losses.”

  64. Or, willing effect is willing effect. And total cause is total cause.

  65. martyrathbun09

    Or neither as cause and effect are human constructs – not a true reflection of the universe that operates instead in timeless synchronicity.

  66. Thanks, Eric. Now that you say it, that seems right about the objective processes being more applicable to literally anybody and everybody. And the basic gain that is achieved is to bring the person more into present time – which seems pretty synonymous with having more focus.

    As regards the use of “force” in objective processes, it wasn’t my experience as an auditor or pc of “tone 40” objective processes that they result in the auditor “being just another suppressor.” As I recall, it seemed to result just as LRH described it would – that the pc who has been being largely controlled by his bank discovers that he himself can be in control. What was your experience?

    Also, I think TRs can be done on a very gentle gradient. Like objectives, OT-TR-0 and TR-0 bring the person into PT, and TR-0 bullbait especially (again, on the appropriate gradient, as per the tech itself) would further drill focus. Same for upper indoc TR’s. Don’t you think?

  67. Elizabeth Hamre

    OH PIP…. the training routine is secondary to intention.. intention it self to change condition is what causes the healing. [ My reality as usual:)
    PS: But we need to dig a bit further, intention having intention to cure do not necessarily will accomplish the intended. The intentions usually are blocked by counter intentions.. Oh.. I know the web we have created is mind boggling.

  68. Jean Kowalski

    Good observations, but I don’t think Hawkins was intentionally using dogma. It was his way of getting his point across, and Power vs Force was only one of 21 books he wrote. Again there are many good writers and everyone needs to take the one that resonates with them. I find many say the same thing in a different style. LRH said that when you start on the bridge (enlightenment) you have to keep on going (my interpretation) or many obstacles will beset you.

    Life presents us with what we need to overcome to advance to the next level. Hawkins stresses responsibility for the part we played and that our worst enemies can turn out to be our best teachers. We should thank them for giving us the courage and life experience we needed to overcame in order to advance. This way of thinking can turn things around to your advantage. Hawkins gave me many stable data, one of which is NO one has the power to hurt you without your consent. Hubbard uses auditing to find the postulate you unintentionally made, but both stress responsibility. With any writing we have to take what works for us, and discard the rest. i think graduating from Scientology requires studying many different teachers and choosing the one that resonates with you— to give the most attention to.
    I really appreciate the research and ability to communicate those findings that Marty does. Thank you.

  69. Never was a time when we were not. Never will there be a time when we will not be.
    “No birth, no death, no caste have I. Father Mother have I none. I am He I am He, Blessed Spirit I am He!”
    “No sky, no earth, no metals have I, no feelings emotions nor ego have I!

    I am He I am He!
    Blessed Spirit I am He”

  70. That song was written to Yogananda. He is Gary’s teacher.
    Tales of a Topographical Ocean by Yes is written about Autobiography.

    God, I hate communicating this but it is true.

    I have had the dissemination bug ripped out of my by Scientology.

  71. Elizabeth Hamre

    Aries, I have read your post…you say that your son is brilliant…Please accept my view as they are mine alone and they are not meant to be any ways hurtful or to put down any existing realities. Your son he is more than brilliant he is so good that he do not fit into the human society.. I have audited every kind of conditions and one of them is what you describe.. I also have audited concepts, crazy, nuts, dumb, idiotic, stupid, no there, not with it, and dozens of other related degrading concepts.. And NOT ONCE the person was in that condition. The opposite applied every time.
    The person was and is brilliant and because of that do not fit into the category which is NORMAL and Acceptable to the Humans therefore because they don’t behave, they don’t look like, they cant communicate as on average human do, the humans are degrading put down that condition as not normal.
    Let me tell you. [my blood is boiling a bit here, not at you] the human view point is a very narrow place, and it not a coincidence that your son have chosen your company, he new as a infinite spiritual being that you will recognise him what he is and will value him as he is.
    I wonder why you want him to become like a human? take a good look around you… I think your son is fine more than fine as he is.. he is truly a wonderful being, just because he cant do some of the things humans can… well….
    It is fact that he could benefit from auditing since every one has who have had cognitions their reality-conditions have changed course. What Marty recommended would work… but do he really need to fit in? and fit into what?
    My -self here I have done everything in my power over the past 40 years in auditing to shad the human qualities, I am happy so say that no amount of money.. riches of any kind could make me want to go back to the considerations as I have had in the early 70’s
    If you care to hear more on the above topic. please fill very free to write I would be more than happy to share what I know of that condition.

  72. Elizabeth Hamre

    Run it out of your system? run Buddhism out of your system? run being on engineer out of your system. WHY WOULD ANY ONE WANT TO GET RID OF ANY KIND OF KNOWLEDGE?
    Being this or that.. being a Buddhist a Scientologist a Brick layer is identifying with that body of energy than that energy becomes a VALANCE.
    So If one is no longer a in a scientology valance than that person can go back to the earlier valance? DA?
    Something is not right, not in harmony…you need to take a few layers filters off and sort out those thoughts. You said you are here to learn.. we all are.

  73. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian… Just imagine, jamming into one miserable 41 years, thousands of lifetimes, tens of thousand of different incidents: battles, victories, degrading situations, adoration and being hated, knowing what true evil is, and what true power the Infinite has, used up countless thousands of valances, been in immense amount of different places,[ including the Black Hole] traveling with the light particles, being inside California’s Fault Line inside the Sun done thousand of other things beside what I have mentioned yes it is a great adventure.. 🙂

  74. Elizabeth Hamre

    PS: I should have made it clear.. those who comment here are not the ones who belong to the group which representing the “average'” human realities.

  75. Elizabeth Hamre

    Lovely, really lovely….that touched me, thank you! and love you back!
    Brian can a spiritual being have genitals? 🙂 [ just splitting hairs for fun]

  76. Spiritual beings can have whatever they want:-)

    Just, cause no harm.

  77. Still Awakening

    “….a true reflection of the universe that operates instead in timeless synchronicity.” That, in my opinion, is one giant step toward having the correct viewpoint and paradigm to evaluating much of what you have written about. This post and the last two allow one to actually see the big picture and live life, to keep what one has found of value and valid in scientology (or any other study one has done) while at the same time maintaining the ability to learn and experience so much more.

    Thank you for continuing to include, quite openly, others in your quest for understandings. I appreciate your comments and data as well as the many postings from others. To learn what are our own human constructs is a first step to be able to evaluate all other inputs. The variety of information and viewpoints combined with an ability to just think about new viewpoints and concepts is like a beautiful sunrise and enjoyment of a wonderful new dawn!

  78. Marty, I like your awakening series. It is very good work.

  79. Hi Maria! I haven’t seen you posting much for a while and it’s nice to see you again. I’m always amazed at how much you’ve read and studied – and continue to do more!

    Since you’re interested in the subject of self and ego, I wonder if you’ve come across a man by the name of Cameron Day. I’ve read some of the articles he’s written that are on his website and listened to a few of his radio interviews. He has some insightful views on the subject of the ego. On the previous blog thread of Marty’s, I posted the youtube video of an interview of him, part of which is about the ego. Here’s the link to a summary of it that I posted, which might interest you enough to listen to the interview too:

    LOL, knowing you, I wouldn’t be surprised if you already know of Cameron Day and have read and listened to much more of him than I have! 🙂

  80. marildi

    Your comment on “tone 40” certainly has some validity, but it seems it is a very fine line between “help” and “suppress” at lower tone levels and with people already overwhelmed by their environments and/or their minds. It would seem that a very gentle and encouraging approach would be best, and keep it “objective” to start.

    I even feel that a good number of the methods employed in “bringing a child up”, for instance, are one form or another of “suppression” in the name of regulating the child so that the parents and others can confront them more easily.

    Yes, there is certainly some validity in demonstrating to someone that he is capable of controlling his own actions, and even thoughts, but there is a very delicate balance between self determinism and “other-determinism” that one doing such processes needs to be aware of. As little “other-determined” direction should be used as possible.

    As to TRs, they were once one of my favorite things, both as a student and as a supervisor, but I would not use them, as drills, at all in this instance. Would you recommend using TRs on a baby, who is barely cognizant of his environment? My thinking suggests that one would first want to introduce them to the environment before you expect considerations about it. Actually locationals and objective processes are partially “confront” processes, but they generally do not call for “subjective” evaluations. The ones that do, I would use higher on the gradient.

    As an example… On TR0, how long did it take before you totally got your wits around the suggestion to just “BE there, and do nothing else but BE there.”? Do you consider that you have fully grasped all the
    nuances of that concept, to this day, much less considering that you are actually able do it?

    OK , how about, “Look at that keyboard.” (thank you) …. advancing to “touch that keyboard”. It is a vastly different level of address to me. Processes of this type are far less intellectually demanding but still increase confront, and promote a sense of comfort in, and with, the present time environment.

    Maybe, at some point TRs (as drills) could come into it, maybe not.

    Eric S

  81. Wonderful comment, Val. I really liked the “vibe.”

    And I liked both quotes you chose to post. So I clicked on the link and found another good one:

    “There are very few human beings who receive the truth, complete and staggering, by instant illumination. Most of them acquire it fragment by fragment, on a small scale, by successive developments, cellularly, like a laborious mosaic.”
    –Anais Nin


  82. Siddhartha blew more Pride and Ego out of my universe than just about anything else I’ve read.

    Haven’t read much Hawkins, but I’m enjoying his states of being chart.
    Just for fun I wrote two things on two separate pieces of paper and folded them up. Anita doesn’t really get “kinesiology” so I attempted an experiment.
    I wrote, “love is all” on one piece of paper and “hate is all” on another. She didn’t know what I wrote. I folded both pieces of paper so she couldn’t see them. I had her hold one to her heart and pushed on her arm. It held strong. I laid that paper aside. Then I had her hold the other and pushed on her arm. It went down like a limp noodle.

    She read the words on the last piece of paper, “hate is everything.”

  83. I don’t think he means it the way you took it. The point is that the map is never the territory, by definition of each, but some people come to think the map is all there is – i.e. that it IS the territory.

  84. That reminds me of something I read about the book *Siddhartha* after you recommended it:

    “…Toward the end of his life, Govinda hears about an enlightened ferryman and travels to Siddhartha, not initially recognizing him as his old childhood friend. Govinda asks the now-elderly Siddhartha to relate his wisdom and Siddhartha replies that for every true statement there is an opposite one that is also true; that language and the confines of time lead people to adhere to one fixed belief that does not account for the fullness of the truth. Because nature works in a self-sustaining cycle, every entity carries in it the potential for its opposite and so the world must always be considered complete. Siddhartha simply urges people to identify and love the world in its completeness.”

  85. Sorry, my bad language:
    “You see my point here”
    is the reader in general. Not you.


    “You have to look at some painful experiences”
    is not a good sentence at all. Better “One would…”


    “So, it would be a good idea to have a look at those points in time it appeared to you that you did agree to something by your own choice.”

    I am not adressing you personally here.

  86. Speaking within human constructs. 🙂 I am wallowing in the human experience. And quite enjoying it I must confess.

  87. That’s one way of viewing Siddhartha. Another is to view Hesse’s story as about someone who lived utterly for himself, fathering a child and leaving that child to his own devices, etc.,. What did Siddhartha contribute to others and to what degree was Siddhartha contributed to? Was Siddhartha without ego or utterly egotistical? What is the moral to this story? Just askin’.

    Oh, and the words on a slip of paper? I don’t really believe that story.

  88. Marty: Have you or L.Ron Hubbard or David Hawkins for example overlooked the physical health part of life (that makes going OT possible in the first place)? An unhealthy body supports an healthy mind which support an unhealthy spirit? A lot of information gets tossed around here about how people are capable of this, people are capable of that but the people that are making this spiritual intellectual boasts, can be people that are unable to get their body in good enough physical health. Is smoking (like L. Ron Hubbard (a.k.a. Mr. Fact Based Science) a scientfically proven way to improve one’s health or maintain it? But yet, you make no mention of this here. Where is the science of physical health that LEADS to mental health and then finally to spiritual health? L. Ron Hubbard was on the right track, but he strayed off the trail the bit, especially with his Purification Rundown theory, which a person can be on for 2 weeks and still have attached to their body, fat cells, from days when they may have used drugs. That’s purified? That’s the route to mental and spiritual health per L. Ron Hubbard? Please don’t make me laugh. 🙂 Or accuse me of being ignorant or missing any of the facts here! 🙂

  89. Elizabeth Hamre

    LDW.. yes it works with written words… how I see it, the paper not only contains the words but the picture it self which cant be seen with the EYES and the energy flow-mass which you created while writing those concepts on the paper of course she reacted!
    Much fun!
    The same happens with works of art. movies.. books anything created, including furniture etc… these created items- written concepts do contain the creators energy and to that energy the person who views it is drawn to or repelled by.
    Example Hitler’s energy flows were charismatic so were LRH’s words alone would not do the trick. Stalin was not charismatic person he used brutal force to intimidated.

  90. Lawrence.
    If you will accept anecdotal evidence, when I did the purif. 29 yrs. ago, it was like wearing sunglasses for 20 yrs. day and night and suddenly taking them off.

    I am a purif. I/C and have seen many people receive benefit from the program, some greatly. A few have been harmed by it. Many, Many more people have died playing high school sports than from the purif.

    It has been my observation that good physical health does not lead to good mental/spiritual health. It allows it.

    Lawrence: “Purification Rundown theory, which a person can be on for 2 weeks and still have attached to their body, fat cells, from days when they may have used drugs. That’s purified?”

    Mark: I’m not certain what you mean by this. Could you elaborate? You may have some info that I need to know.

  91. christianscientology

    Hi Marty

    It is only a small point but when I hear LRH referred to as Hubbard it sort of jars. I feel I have a personal relationship with Ron. I have the same (dare I say it) ‘reaction’ when I hear Christian Scientists referring to Mrs Eddy as Eddy.

    I took it up on a Chrstian Science forum and other people agreed, but then others said it was the modern way of writing and once one had referred to someone by their full name it was OK to just use the surname after that. I must admit I have to make a concerted effort to refer to Dawkins as Richard Dawkins!

    You wrote “a signal (I assume that word is single) critical difference between Hubbard and Hawkins is that the former attempted to force the world to accept his ideas and created a slave cult to accomplish that”. It never came across to me that Ron was forcing anything. I think his greatest mistake was his inability to root out the bad applies in direct proportion to his rise in popularity, so that eventually all those with large egos rose to a position of power and the gentler ones got marginalised.

    I truly believe by “comparing scientology to data of comparable magnitude” will do one of two things. Either cause the Scientologist to “change horses” or to confirm them in the truth and workability of the tech.

    You mention “the crippling effect of clinging to personal identity, ego” but what would you suggest as an alternative. The ego is most peoples’ choice rather than THE VOID, THE GOD SHAPED HOLE IN THE HUMAN SOUL. Perhaps that is what the author you recommended means by “life is organic – that is to say, non-linear by definition”.

    I notice that you personalise Scientology for instance when you say “as it requires itself to be applied”. Come on Marty, Scientology is a body of knowledge; that is like saying a hammer requires itself to be knocking in nails. No it just sits there ‘doggo’ waiting to be used or abused, and is NOT GUILTY on either count.

    Having said all that I do admire your persistence on your chosen course, and between you and us ‘bloggers’ it has helped me to exercise “the old grey matter”.

    Best wishes and kind regards to your family.

  92. christianscientology

    Hi Oracle

    So I said “willing effect is total cause” let me explain. I let rooms, and I expect folk to leave the kitchen as they find it. If a person cooks a meal and leaves the kitchen in a mess, I don’t “have a go”at them; I go and clean it up. This is the willing effect bit.

    Then when I next see them I might mention how it is much more survival having the kitchen clean and tidy than it being in a mess. To the degree I can have it being a mess is to the degree I can have it clean and tidy.



  93. I think I understand the idea of Scientology being a “construct”. To me, another way of saying it is that it is a “universe” created by an individual to explain life and all the trimmings and gives techniques to help “heal” a person.
    I have to give credit to LRH for mocking up that construct. I really feel that it can bring people from a lower awareness to a higher one and can take people who feel really bad and give them a “game” and hope. I am just finishing up “Man’s search for meaning” and feel that Scientology has tools to help people give and find meaning in their life.
    Having said that, I do feel that the “construct” is a flawed one. Part of the construct was that it intimated that it supplied “the road to total freedom” and also seemed to intimate that “it could take you to full OT”. As many people like to downplay the idea that OT means to be able to levitate matter and so forth, I do believe that LRH outright said that it was attainable. This major part of the construct is simply a lie. Scientology can help people enormously, no doubt about it, if used rationally. But it is not the road “to total freedom” or to “full OT”. This lie is what rationalized all of the abhorrent behavior within the cult. Since they are operating on the assumption that “Scientology is the only hope of mankind” it seems to also justify as part of the construct to destroy anyone who attempts to look at it critically or express disapproval of any of it’s ideas.

  94. christianscientology

    I understood a GPM had mass, and mass is always a problem. The goal of WILLING EFFECT is to be MASS-LESS then effect is no longer a problem and the goal is to just be there and confront. The result is to be effortlessly at CAUSE – WILLING EFFECT IS TOTAL CAUSE.


  95. christianscientology

    Hi Elizabeth

    I think you will find Ho’oponopono worth looking at it is quite thought provoking

  96. martyrathbun09

    Really insightful Tony. That kind of sums up my point of departure. That is why my focus is on graduating. There are fundamental flaws in the philosophy that make the attainment of its promise impossible. Unfortunately, the promise is so hypnotically implanted as reality that it is also nearly impossible to communicate those flaws to the indoctrinated – even long after they have left the group.

  97. Thank you for posting that, Brian. That song has always had a wonderful effect on me, and listening to it now, in the context of this discussion, has added another dimension. A very enjoyable experience!

  98. Kind of a slow question for a Purif IC. 🙂

  99. It’s interesting Marty because I can see how the Scientology construct can still be used by people who apply it to others. I think it would be okay to use the construct as long as they imparted it’s limitations to people.
    So it has value to people who may want to make it their career as in my opinion that construct has major value if used rationally.
    As a consumer of that construct I think it is limited. Each person would have to decide when they have hit the “wall” and want to look elsewhere for answers. I do think that some of the underlying foundations of Scientology could be used to help find new constructs or expand the limits of the current Scientology construct. Similar to what the freezone seems to be doing.

  100. And, not to be forceful here, but this is another good example (your response) of WHY people complain about the Church of Scientology. People “making other people *well*” that do not yet themselves truly understand the science of good health. That is sick. And that categorizes the Church of Scientology. 🙂

  101. martyrathbun09

    If you overesteem great men, people become powerless. – Tao Te Ching
    On your prediction of only ‘one of two things’ possibly happening by my efforts, it is this type dichotomous think that I believe is the bane of Scientology. Did you ever read What Is Wrong With Scientology?

  102. O.K., I understand your view. As in willing effect, being a via to total cause. Willing to be total effect first, then come back to total cause. First you clean up the kitchen, then you mention something to the person who messed it up and now you are back at cause. I can see how you are looking at this.

    I would be willing effect of someone coming over here to clean my kitchen. I guess these are just personal choices. What kind of effect a person is willing to experience.

  103. Thank you. Question answered.

  104. Goals are personal choices also. I just don’t have a goal to make myself willing effect, so I can comfortably experience someone else’s cause, so I can come around and consider myself cause at some future point. I am willing effect of pleasure and sudden good fortune, good news and opportunity. And a host of other experiences. Not like I am not willing to be effect. There is also a host of conditions and forces and would not be willing effect of. And would not want to be willing effect of. I don’t think these are abilities, or disabilities. These are choices.

    Right now there is a drought on the Colorado River, several states survive off the Colorado River. Geographical surveys suggest it is a situation. Farmers in California have killed off their herds and watched their crops die.

    Plenty of people are willing to be the effect of the weather. I guess if it dries up completely for a while, they will get around to being cause and relocating. Even though their real estate investment will be reduced to zero. I am willing effect of plenty of water, so I am packing everything I own and putting in into containers. Selling what I have now, to people who are willing effect of the drought. Whoever buys my property will be someone at total cause over the purchase and willing effect of the weather. Willing effect of danger conditions.

    I am not willing effect of the weather or the conditions I could face if it continues. I’m not alone, this is why man builds houses and people live in them. That doesn’t mean I can’t be total cause over where I live. I just choose to be willing effect of plenty of resources. I am not willing effect of can’t haves. As in, can’t have a clean kitchen or can’t have water. These are just choices. People just kind of know not to mess up my kitchen. Probably because they know I am not willing to be the effect of that. And they are not willing to be the effect of me if they did mess up my kitchen.

    A lot of people are walking around thinking they have a life because they are total effect of their parent’s romance. And they are willing effect of that. Meanwhile they are 55 and their mother gave birth at 16. They are middle aged and willing effect of a 16 year old teenager. It’s all by choice how a person chooses to view these things.

  105. One possible aspect is that it is a collection of schemata that people adopt and which they subsequently use to perceive and filter information.

    It might go hand in hand with the concept of mental models.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if some form of transference takes place in the group, even if one never had auditing. There is a certain infatuation with the group itself or its figureheads with some members.

  106. Eric: “Your comment on ‘tone 40’ certainly has some validity, but it seems it is a very fine line between ‘help’ and ‘suppress’ at lower tone levels and with people already overwhelmed by their environments and/or their minds.”

    I guess I’ve had the idea that all objectives, including the tone 40 processes, could be done on anyone provided (as with any auditing) the pc understands to start with that the auditor is there to help him, and provided the auditor has the necessary skill for a given pc (for example, some pc’s can tolerate less-than-perfect TR’s better than others). But you may have had more training than I have and I might have that wrong about tone 40 processes. Or is it a matter of yours or others’ experience in auditing, rather than what the materials state, that you see this as a point where the tech is lacking?

    The other thing that occurred to me is that in the case of autism, it probably depends on the individual as to what would be workable. I did a Google search and found the following:

    “Each individual with autism is unique. Many of those on the autism spectrum have exceptional abilities in visual skills, music and academic skills. About 40 percent have average to above average intellectual abilities.”

    With the above in mind, I suppose TRs may or may not be appropriate, as you indicated. But TR’s are a great example of the beauty of the tech, which is basically tailored to the individual. A person doesn’t need to totally get their wits around the idea of just “BE there, and do nothing else but BE there.” All that’s needed is a “major stable win” in that direction. But again, as you say, for some people it may not be the place to start.


    Security Check Children

    Bulletin September 21, 1961

    The following is a processing check for use on children.

    Be sure the child can understand the question. Re phrase it so he or she can understand it. The first question is the most potent.

    Children’s Security Check Ages 6 – 12

  108. Lawrence;
    My question was whether you had the understanding that the fat cells were retired and replaced during the purif process, of if the chemicals were physically washed out of the cells due to the hyper expansion of capillaries due to large niacin doses, or if the electomagnetic bonds of the foreign chemicals were believed to be broken down by the introduction of new molecules which would then bind withe the now free carbon compounds and then be carried out during normal body processes, as is with metals during chelation therapy.

    The theory that when certain chemicals are present in the body, does the spirit recognize and react (restimulate bank) to the chemicals, or do the chemicals alter processes in the body and brain by acting as a catalyst or inhibitor to nerve impulses, by interfering with alkaline metals during energy/motion production, or other chemical/hormone processes.

    It was shown that just a few molecules of machine oil present on knee and hip implants could wreck havoc on the new joint, just as a few chloral flouro carbon molecules would bounce around in the upper atmosphere and alter the ozone layer by breaking the O3 bond and binding with oxygen, then being attracted to another O3 molecule would leave the loose bond to the O2 and O1 behind and break another O3 bond and on and on.

    Removing fat cells or removing chemicals from the cells. Theories of restimulation or interfering with electro-chemical processes.
    Those were the questions I was asking. These are valid area’s of discussion. It was once reported on this site that persons on the early purif would be so sick and tired of being in the sauna every day, that they would write glowing success stories in order to get it over with.

    This is a valid point, and I thought you may have some additional insight or info. Do you?

  109. Tony, you’ve expressed my viewpoint too as regards what you said about Scientology having “major value if used rationally.”

    The fact that you see and grant that much makes me more willing to also look at the flaws you see. I definitely would have to agree with what you said in your previous comment – that it is an assumption that “Scientology is the only hope of mankind.”

    However, as regards LRH’s claim that levitation is possible (also mentioned in your previous comment), I think it is just as much an assumption for you to say that this was a lie. From what I understand, the idea that levitation is indeed possible is contained in Eastern philosophy, and there seems to be a rather “physics” explanation for how it works. It was explained by a poster on another forum, who has studied Eastern works extensively.

    What I got from him is that levitation has to do with the fact that matter comes about as the result of opposing considerations – or, as LRH put it, opposing flows which form a ridge, the last stage of which is matter. Thus, if one is capable of polarizing the flows/considerations in the mass of one’s body by means of one’s own energy, the result is that mass in the body is as-ised and with that the body levitates.

    Mind you, I may or may not have duplicated the idea correctly, but in any case, whether levitation is possible, or whether Jesus actually walked on water, is something I don’t think we can assume is a lie. And for the same reason, I keep an open mind about the other wild things LRH had to say. Some of the things he stated decades ago have come to be viewed as true, or at least possible, even by scientists.

    That said, I thought what you wrote here was really taking the broad perspective and spot on:

    “Each person would have to decide when they have hit the ‘wall’ and want to look elsewhere for answers. I do think that some of the underlying foundations of Scientology could be used to help find new constructs or expand the limits of the current Scientology construct.”

  110. Personally, I think the “two rules for happy living” Hubbard laid out, were not workable for me or him. There was clearly much he was not willing to experience. And I think the current state of affairs shows that what people are willing to experience, isn’t always in their best interest. It’s is a person’s right to keep their own best interests as a foremost priority. The mere fact that a person “should willing to experience” something that is not in their best interest, is somewhat aberrated. People were taught they should be willing to experience slavery. Look at what the current Scientology crowd is “willing to experience” and if they are not, they are crucified. There is nothing sane about that and it has bought very few any joy.

  111. Stellar post, Mark. You sure are a technical kind of guy – all kinds of tech!

  112. Willing effect.
    When one is unwilling in any area, his ability is diminished.

    A man/woman joins the military. He knows that during fighting he may get hurt. He is willing to take that chance. He is in a firefight and gets shot in the shoulder. He looks down and thinks,”Crap, I got shot”. But his buddies are still in harms way. He knows he cannot shoot with 2 guns now, so he picks up one and continues to shoot. He was willing to be effect of the bullet and still fight. He didn’t have the original purpose of getting a Purple Heart, but he was not so unwilling to be the effect of the bullet that he laid down and said “I’m shot, somebody help me, make the pain stop, oh my God, I’m gonna die”.

    And no, lurkers, I am not saying everyone should be perfectly willing to shoot people at any time. If an ex-con is holding a gun on a little girl, you had better be totally willing to cause his death. If you are unwilling to be the effect of your cause, you will fail and the child may die. This is the far end of the gradient, but it plays out every day in more mundane circumstances every day.

    Should I tell my sister that her makeup and halter top makes her look like a slut. Can I accept my co-worker telling me that I smell like I had a wet fart. But remember, the complete willingness to be cause or effect does not discount wisdom and common sense. You don’t HAVE to be cause of bad effects. It is a choice. But your willingness to be told you look like a slut does affect your ability to tell someone they look like a slut IF IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO AT THE TIME. Unwillingness stunts one’s ability to think and act wisely.

  113. Hey Tony. Great post. Here’s the “LRH” that should be applied whenever someone has gotten what can be gotten from that construct:

    “When somebody comes along and says to you, “Dianetics and Scientology is a cult,” this is a slight misnomer. Although I yank you into my universe to beat some facts into your heads, it’s only just long enough to boot you the hell out and say, “Stand on your own two feet!” Now there’s, in essence, the slight difference here. Now, when we’re working with processes which are working badly in the hands of auditors you find
    more people going into the Scientology universe than come out. It’s your duty as an auditor to keep the population stable. If you take them in, throw them out. Well, the way you throw them out is, of course, to restore their self-determinism. And actually, this is the only way you’ll ever make anybody happy and able and well.”
    Tape lecture, 28 April 54, Space and Havingness.

    In my opinion Ron too often failed to heed his own good advice.

  114. Willingness is an attitude, a viewpoint. An attitude that can govern your ability.

    How can one expect to exteriorize easily when one is unwilling to experience that dead squirrel rotting on the ground, or that pre teen masturbating, along with that beautiful meadow or brilliant Hawaiian sunset.

    This works in actual practice. I was able to expand exterior when I loved everyone and could be and experience anything.

    Once willingness ‘clicks’, it is very sensible and straightforward.

  115. marildi

    Yes, it is the part about “…provided (as with any auditing) the pc understands to start with that the auditor is there to help him, and provided the auditor has the necessary skill for a given pc…”

    That is an important caveat.

    In the case that Aries mentioned, he was citing an “intellectually challenged” “PC”, and I took it that he was an untrained auditor. Therefor I was recommending the least obtrusive and subjective types of processes.

    You also pointed out that “Each individual with autism is unique.” And I agree that a good understanding of the “clients” capabilities is important in order to correctly tailor the processes to their needs.

    I guess that was my main point. Whatever you use has to be carefully selected to serve the “client’s” interests, desires, needs, and abilities. (of course this should also be true of all processing, on every “PC.”)

    And, no, I am not that well trained or experienced as an auditor, but am well trained and experienced as a supervisor.

    Regarding “Tone 40”, my experience has shown me that that whole concept is easily, and often, misunderstood and misused.

    “Tone 40”, by definition, is total override. So, the intention of the user is paramount. To the degree that the user’s intention does not EXACTLY match that of the “client”, I tend to classify it as “suppression”, or at least “other-determinism”, of the client. To me, this also applies to any other other-determined influence on the “client.” Perhaps I am taking it to extremes here, but I consider that being mindful of this would make one’s impact upon others around him more benevolent, if that is some part of his goal.

    I am just giving you MY thoughts and understandings here. They may or may not bear any resemblance to anything said by LRH.


  116. Thank you Marildi;
    Background data.
    CFCs are strongly attracted to O3 or ozone, due to their electromagnetic properties.. It will combine with this ozone but the new molecule is unstable and will shed O1 atoms and O2 molecules. This new CFCO molecule is still strongly attracted to ozone and will combine with it, again becoming unstable and again shed free oxygen. Much of the O1 combines with other O1s to become O2, which is very stable. This goes on and on over and over, destroying ozone faster than free oxygen and sunlight can produce it. Some of the O1 and O2 will occasionally combine to form ozone, but this is a long slow process.
    Small quantities of some chemicals can cause large effects.

  117. “…….Although I yank you into my universe to beat some facts into your heads, it’s only just long enough to boot you the hell out and say, “Stand on your own two feet!”……..”And actually, this is the only way you’ll ever make anybody happy and able and well.”LRH

    I have seen this attitude in many of LRH’s writings and lectures. I only occasionally see them on discussions such as this. He may have sowed the seeds to this current disaster, which have been nurtured by others, he also pointed out the way to prevent it.
    Thank you, LDW

  118. Hi Mirildi,
    I never said that levitation wasn’t possible. My point was that Scientology as a construct developed by LRH doesn’t achieve the state of the ultimate OT as LRH postulated and seemed to infer that he achieved.

  119. Good reference Les.
    The problem with the LRH construct is that there are several horrible references that counter the rational ones. The one you refer to is one of the rational ones. As long as a practitioner of the Scientology construct is able to utilize references that actually make sense and help a person and don’t lead to him or her being dominated or nullified then that practice could have enormous benefit in my opinion.

    Of course I feel that you are one of the people with that capability. 🙂

  120. I just finished watching the entire 4 seasons of Battlestar Galactica on Netflix. A profound series! A phrase that is said throughout the series and then, at the very end of the last episode, it is said again only with a ‘but’ added. The phrase…”This has all happened before and it will happen again.”

    As I read through the wonderful (as usual) comments and finally came to the end…the phrase…”This has all happened before and it will happen again…’but’…” really felt appropriate.

  121. Ah, I got it, Tony.

    Okay, but the way I look at it is that full OT was, as you said, LRH’s postulate – and he fell short of actually seeing it through. I personally don’t feel let down by him, if only because of how much he did in fact come through with. And also because of exactly what you wrote here:

    “I do think that some of the underlying foundations of Scientology could be used to help find new constructs or expand the limits of the current Scientology construct.”

    Thanks for contributing your thoughts!

  122. “Regarding ‘Tone 40’, my experience has shown me that that whole concept is easily, and often, misunderstood and misused.”

    Okay, now I’m with you, Eric. I was looking at what processes a trained auditor might be able to use on an autistic child – while you were considering the trouble that the untrained parent could get into with the use of tone 40 processes. And I concur! 🙂

  123. Wow, interesting. Thanks for all your contributions, Mark – now and, shall we say, “in advance.” 😉

  124. Hi Tony.
    Look at persons around you. LOOK CLOSELY. Everyone of them have traits that would amaze you. Every single one of them would have traits that would disgust you. Every one.

    The ability and willingness to discern useful and accurate knowledge from pure bulls##t comes with work. It is a most valuable ability to work towards. It is worth the effort. Learn from LRH. Learn From Marty. Learn from Hitler, Genghis Khan, Stalin, Lau Tsu. Your next door neighbor. They all have distinct parts. Keep your eyes open.

    We are on our way, don’t stop.

  125. Your communication seems nonsequitur to me.

  126. The only thing I feel that LRH did really wrong was to promote that his construct was the best and only route out, witness the KSW series. This further justified all of the madhouse antics of the RCS. If he had made it “all the way out” referring to full OT then maybe some of this insanity would be justified. He lied about that attainment and all of the insanity coming out of the cult is founded on those lies in my opinion.

  127. Thanks again Marildi.
    Chemistry is fascinating to me. How everything fits together. But then, so is mechanical engineering, and physics, and electrical engineering, and, and, and…..But I fell into electrical engineering where I could get out on the factory floor and see for myself what was going on. I could see and hear when the computer told the machine to stop, did it stop too hard, did I need to add a slow down program to keep the hydraulic hoses from getting too much shock.when the hydraulic valves closed. I loved getting into these kinds of problems. I became known as the guy who could ‘feel’ the machines. It was fun.
    PS; You are becoming known as the girl who can come up with the reference.

  128. Marildi

    Thank you for all that.

    I suspected that we were not so far apart in our understandings as all that, but simply needed to clarify some of the fine points.

    Good chatting with you.


  129. Thank you for that. We do try our best in this.

  130. I think the key word here is “will”. You might want to look that word up.

    I do not see unwillingness as a general outpoint on anyone. To will or not will should only be under the person’s self determinism. I think any kind of punishment for unwillingness , especially under pressure, can cause a person to not be themselves. People are punished more for unwilligness, than willingness, and it is an invisible tool that can be used to bend a person.

    All of these soldiers going off to war did not start the war, invest in the war, profit off the war, or neither provided with facts about how and why they are sent off to war, starting with Viet Nam.

    Unwillingness to fight in a war began by others was considered social taboo. So you had men who never thought about killing before enlisting as “willing” to go off and kill or be killed. Look at the scorn put on people in the Church who are not willing to donate or be on staff. Unwillingness is not tolerated at all within the culture of the Church. There is even a policy about saying “Yes Sir”, when given a command. “No” is a forbidden word. It has led to a toxic social atmosphere.

    I do not believe for a minute that unwillingness stunts a person abilities to think or act wisely. Total willingness leads to blindness and stupidity. Look at the blind devotion we see in any group when we see a group of madmen or sheep.

    When Crowley said “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law”. Wilt being archaic present 2d singular of will, He was saying to create your own realities and operate on your OWN will. Unwill is simply not willing anything. If it does not originate from YOU, it is NOT YOUR WILL anyway! It is someone else’s! Unwillingness is just a potent of force as willingness.

    Solidiers are sent to do the bidding of others, so of course “unwillingness” on their part just misses a with hold on the person who is willing then to go off and kill or be killed. If you are following orders you are doing the bidding of others. It may appear you are WILLING but you are not. Someone else is. You are subject to THEIR willingness, not YOURS.

    I’m unwilling to jump out of an airplane without a parachute. That does make me disabled or stupid. I’m unwilling a lot more too. I do not see myself as disabled. I know what is my will and what is someone else’s will.
    Not willing or unwilling can be very sane. We live in a civilization where people are unwilling to see children starve to death. So they are provided for. There are civilizations where children are willed to starve. I don’t want to live there. That does not make me disabled.

  131. Most certainly. Because stored fat toxins are stored fat toxins. Does a person need to do their NOT’s twice nowadays in order to make sure it was correct the first time? (all jokes aside on that comment/question). I understand the theory behind the Purification Rundown. I am not neccesarily talking about people being harmed by the Purif. I am referring to people that do not actually de-toxify their bodies following LRH’s and the church’s “closely tapered path”. A person that leaves the Purification Rundown after 2 weeks, feeling “great” with only 40 pounds of body fat still left and graduates the rundown is now “Purified” and ready for auditing. This is why I said please don’t make me laugh. My sides are spliting already! 🙂 Do you mean at any point in time to say that the fat left on the sample person’s body mentioned above (not that people like that do not currently exist) is the “good fat” the “harmless fat” that won’t get in the way of anyone’s auditing because there’s “no more stuff in it”? Is that something a sentient being is supposed to accept as fact? I hope not. I have been a vegetarian (not that I am boasting) since 1995 so I do think I know a little perhaps about weight loss or some other health matters. In my opinion a Purification Rundown is done when there is no more fat anwywhere excess left possibly storing restimulative chemicals, even if a person’s body was lean like this only for one day, it would be the real EP, But to graduate people from the Rundown, some that are stil obese, classifies them as purified? This is why I did not want to discuss this here with you or on this blog! Right or wrong? 🙂 Oh, and did I mention, it only cost about $4,000.00 to rip yourself off at a nearby Church of Scientology this way, not including living expenses. I don’t know too many people to be honest with you, that are Pro-Church of Scientology, except of course its members and even that is doubtful.! All my best to you! 🙂

  132. Hi christianscientology,

    Is it willing effect or acceptable randomity?

    Total cause (if there is such a thing) would require one to make a unique first selection. An origination of selection. In case of your kitchen example, if one looks at it in terms of “have a go at them” or not then one has already accepted the pre-selected options. This way or that way, same as having to pick a democratic or republican president.

    The person who made a mess of the kitchen is an earlier cause. Prior to that is the one letting the room (whether he/she knows/accepts mess makers). And why does one let a room to begin with? Because one is part of reality having to chose to “let” or not as a result of existential needs. One could say that at any given time the first cause is reality rendering pre-selected options for us. Total cause (IMO) is a myth. At any given time the best we can do is select from the available options. To be at peace with our choices is a matter of ARC between our subjective reality and the real thing – objective reality.

    Just saying 🙂

  133. No, I don’t think you should tell your sister she looks like a slut either. Maria Shriver wore make up and halter tops too. And she is a devout Catholic.

  134. And I can vouch for what Marty says about no longer needing to educate onseself and thus quit discussing about it. I consider it a good EP. Nevertheless, my leaving blogs -if anyone knows/remembers- was a little bit forced as well –I forced myself, I ‘blew’. After a while I just had too much pressure from seemingly -or not- exterior factors aka ‘motivators’ in Scientologese.

    In terms of spirituality, I have been having a jolly good time, operating without a set-by-a-group route. This doesn’t invalidate groups, it only validates my route. I believe after about 15 years of being into spirituality, it is a good EP as well –to be self determined on that field. I’m really so glad about it.

    But I should apologise for something. You know, each one of us, no matter his allegiances, views etc has the right to be, and to have -or not- his own thougts –all kinds of thoughts. It is not OK to put your thoughts ‘above’ another’s, nor to undermine his, not to try to destroy his being, not matter who he is being and what his thoughts are. Of course, he doesn’t have that right either. But you need not fight anybody who operates like that. He jolly well fights himself. Money is not a good criteria when you judge whether somebody is successful or not. There are other factors as well –like health, sanity, reputation, his trusting people…much stuff. So, I’m sorry for accusing people -and specially in public- not matter who that was, and particularly I’m sorry for generalising with the ‘freezone’, ‘Church’, ‘Churchies’, and any other generalities. Afterall, if you’re a Scientologist, you know that to make somebody wrong/guilty is called a service fascimile and it is generaly considered an unwanted condition. And you should know that to force another to have or not an idea is called an implant –‘brainwashing’ in non Scientologese. I knew that stuff before, but I wasn’t careful enough. Sometimes I got a bit too angry and careless. And it’s a great responsibility when you write in public and many people can read from you.

    Agreement, understanding occur by first allowing one to be, and to have his own thoughts, views etc aka his own reality. Then you can -or not- communicate and come to an agreement, or else you fight and it really never ends, for a BEing is meant to BE, and you cannot un-BE him. Psychiatrists, Dave, critics, Scientologists…all have to right to be. It is not up to Spyros to say “he cannot be anymore”. It is a rule of the game.

    I wish you well 🙂

  135. Joe Pendleton

    Extremely well put Tony! Scientology does indeed include some great and applicable truths that can lead to greater awareness & happiness. Getting into Scientology was a very positive part of my life. At the same time, Scientology also includes some lies which can lead some people to, in effect, turn over their lives to another entity, almost letting that other LIVE their life instead of living it themselves. Of course some God centered religions do this too. I think that Scientology could have been another game if it had been played with no force, threats or punishments. Just allowing people to REALLY have the right and even be encouraged to reject any of the data as they please.

  136. christianscientology

    Hi Oracle

    You sound as though life is a bit tough at the moment if I am hearing you right, and you are having to relocate because of adverse conditions.

    Let me tell you a little story if I may. After being thrown out of the CofS some 40 years ago it was as though my life had ended. I was totally dedicated to Scientology and would have willingly spent my life at St Hill, but it obviously wasn’t meant to be. Shortly after being expelled, one night as I lay in bed I heard a voice. It spoke with authority and not only to my ears but to my whole being. The words I heard as clear as day were “You’ve sold your soul to the devil”. It was such a shock it stopped me in my tracks. I knew with complete certainty it was true and I surrendered, I just let go, and it was then my life was turned upside down, but now I know in fact it was turned the right way up.

    From that moment I knew I had met with God and the Bible took the place of Scientology in my life. Christians tried to convince me I was now a Christian and should renounce Scientology, but I couldn’t it was part of me. I eventually settled for calling myself a ChristianScientologist. I am totally into Jesus and totally into LRH which on the surface makes me “Billy no mates!”

    Now the point of my story is that in the bible it says that Jesus just before the ordeal of crucifixion, as he agonised over what lay ahead prayed to his Heavenly Father and said “If it is possible that this cup might pass by me, but nevertheless not my will but they will be done”.

    When I read that I knew that he must rise from the dead because he was willing to lay down his life. It was then that I realised WILLING EFFECT IS TOTAL CAUSE. Now I know I have a heavenly father and that Jesus is my elder brother I have taken on this as my family motto W.E.I.T.C.

    Lots of love

  137. christianscientology

    Hi Oracle

    No problem if you are willing effect of the transportation costs! But be warned my other favourite datum is HE WHO CREATES IT CONTROLS IT.


  138. christianscientology

    Oh wise one, we find ourselves on the same page once again.


  139. christianscientology

    Hello Oracle

    I am not sure that “willing to experience” is quite the same as willing effect. Before I joined the merchant navy we had to learn amongst other things judo.

    Now I don’t remember much about it accept this idea that if some ‘ruffian’ was to come at me in a foreign port I should not resist him but go with the flow so to speak, and using his momentum steer him into the nearest brick wall! This has always struck me as a classic WILLING EFFECT IS TOTAL CAUSE.


  140. christianscientology

    Amen to that Mark

  141. christianscientology

    Hi Marty

    Just as I would not refer to you as Rathbun I would not refer to LRH as Hubbard for the simple reason I consider I know both you Marty and Ron. If I heard someone call you Rathbun I would assume they did not have much ARC with you.

    I think your quote from the Teo Te Ching is just fine. I like the line from the poem ‘IF’ by Rudyard Kipling “If all men count with you but none too much”.

    The reason I said I believed only two things could happen by Scientologists viewing other disciplines is because it is my contention that Scientology is a total know in terms of this physical universe. Let’s call it for arguments sake THE KINGDOM OF THIS WORLD but I am aware of another kingdom, a kingdom that is truly higher than this world and that is THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. There are two types of wisdom, earthly wisdom (Scientology and related subjects) and heavenly wisdom which I would not see as the THETA-MEST UNIVERSE but the THETA-THETAN UNIVERSE.

    Does that make any sense?


    P.S. No I haven’t read your book yet but maybe it is time I did.

  142. christianscientology

    Hi Marty

    I am most interested in your statement “there are fundamental flaws in the philosophy that makes the attainment of its promise impossible”. It is not that I disagree with you but what are these flaws you are referring to?

    As you know I never left the group I got thrown out (literally). Now I may be indoctrinated and if I am there is no point in my protesting that I am not, but just to humour me, please tell me what these flaws are.

    Yours sincerely

  143. Mark: “I became known as the guy who could ‘feel’ the machines.”

    That’s an OT ability. Btw, somewhere LRH said you could tell the state of case of a person by the condition of the machinery around him. (Damn, I wish I could remember the reference! 🙂 )

  144. Always good chatting with you too, Eric.

  145. I can understand that.

    The way I would sum up my own view is that LRH certainly buckled under to the pressure, of whatever inner and outer forces.

  146. Elizabeth Hamre

    Spyros.. thank you. because of your post I had this thought.
    a very simple thought, it will not change the universe in any ways only me, how I will respond or not to communication.

    “when I agree to something some one said or I disagree don’t matter which one I chose to do, because each time I do either I make my- self, the “I-ME” right.” I am full of shit…what a joke…and the joke is on me and I ask why one must be always right?
    Be well !

  147. Hi Spyros! Great to see you again!

    I really loved your post. Insightful and inspiring. It was from the heart – easy to feel that. 🙂

  148. Marty, Can we read the books in any order or do you recommend them in order such as Tao first and then Siddartha next and then Power vs Force last?

  149. Hi Monte! 🙂
    Good video. Thank you for posting it.

  150. You wrote: “‘This has all happened before and it will happen again…’but’…” really felt appropriate.”


  151. martyrathbun09

    However you want. I gave them in the order I recommend.

  152. Tony DePhillips
    I went back and re read my post you referred to. It took me a moment to figure out what I meant at the time. I used so many vias that the original point was lost.

    Ron Hubbard was, and all the people around you are, many distinct and separate parts. Any body of data is similar in that a flash of brilliance can reside next to total stupidity. Each part of a body of data or a person should be viewed independently, Worship LRH and your head can get filled with a bunch of crap. Despise him and you will lose out on a great body of wisdom.

    Sorry for the late night rant.

  153. Hello Miss Oracle.
    Oh my goodness, what have I stepped into this time. My ability to lay out a precise point seems to have failed me.

    My first reaction was to alter my point in order to come close to agreement with the comments I had read. But no, my viewpoint was stated, just not in a duplicatable way. We may disagree, I just want us to disagree accurately.

    The words willingness, confront, acceptance, serenity, being in present time, mindfulness, are all related and applicable to this idea and attitude, but none are exactly right. In day to day terms, being unwilling to understand and experience your neighbors point of view about what color to paint the fence, can make one less able to communicate one’s point of view to the neighbor. It separates one from whatever he is unwilling to look at , be, experience. The further one is separated from anything, the less he is able to work with it, or, if needed, have some causative influence over or with it.

    Being able to face something directly, without subconscious or ‘reactive’ retraction, makes one more able to think and act rationally. This is a gradient and goes from willing to get up off the couch all the way to understanding the most basic considerations of existence.

    You know what I’m saying, I just didn’t say it well.
    I’ll try harder.
    By the way, if one wing was off of the plane, there were no chutes and there was NO WAY I was going to walk away from this landing, and the ONLY WAY I was going to possibly survive was to flare out my shirt and slow down as much as possible before hitting that lake 8000 ft below, then I’m out the door. No hesitation. Any ‘unwillingness’ and I may get fried in an explosion in the air.

    Yes, mindfulness is a long term thing, but it is also a moment by moment thing. Responsibility; the willingness to be cause, to be the source point of action or inaction. Unwillingness, non confront, fear, anger, embarrassment etc. etc. limit your choices.

    With your willingness to experience randomity comes the willingness to ‘accept’ choices that are not necessarily of your choosing. But with it comes the richness of life, the beauty of experience, the pleasure of playing the game, the very splendor of existence. Without it, you’re sitting in no space, by yourself, doing nothing.

  154. Hi there Lawrence.
    Thank you for the reply. I looked at my reply and it looked a bit invalidative. My bad.

    Is it even possible to separate organic compounds from the organic oils stored as fat. If they are clinging to the fats themselves, they would be removed during normal usage and replacement of fats. If they become lodged to the cell structure itself, is it possible to dislodge them. If lodged in the cell structure, how can they affect the neurological systems. All are questions that need to be answered if the purif is to be taken seriously.

    I have seen, beginning to end, only a few people go through the purif, less than 100. And I have not audited any of them before and then after the program.

    Your comments have added to my insight.

  155. “…and I ask why one must be always right?”

    E., that’s the question of the century! 🙂

  156. Yes, Marildi, I recall the statements but not the references. Perhaps because he said it more than once in different ways. The machinery in his charge, disorder in his environ, etc. Conversely, an individual’s case can improve as they bring order into their environ. “Clean that ashtray”

    Also, disordered energy, loud noise, will cause one to ‘separate’ from machines and they will more often fall into disrepair, regardless of the ‘work’ that is done to them.
    Exceeding one’s level of randomity.
    I worked in an area which could be likened to pizza conveyer ovens, 60 ft long and 10 ft wide. they were stacked 3 high and there were 4 sets. They were conveyer type wood dryers, each with 12 15hp fans. 144 total. The roar was deafening, pounding, even with hearing protection. I began to TR-0 the noise and accept it as music. I got where I could hear when a bearing was going bad or when a fan was out of balance (sour note). Willingly accept, I might add.

  157. Good for you. Glad you are winning. Glad you have found your right item.
    That should resolve everything. You don’t need me!

  158. I’m on the dark side of the road.

  159. “Pre teen masturbating” isn’t even an item on a list for me.

    We all have different issues. I guess. I mean, we are not on the same page. And maybe that is just not meant to be.

  160. spyrosillusionist

    Hi Elizabeth 🙂 Howdy? For as long as I am concerned, my thoughts are neither right nor wrong, for me. I think it has to do with interpersonal relationships –it’s a kind of fighting, to prove oneself right and another wrong. It’s useful in courts and tiresome -to me- if courts occur in every day life. There can be so much better things to do with people.

    I can disagree with somebody’s view and not make him wrong. I can let him have his view, if I don’t demand that him or everyone should have my view.

  161. spyrosillusionist

    Hi Marildi! Thanx & good to read from you too 🙂 You still not on facebook 😛

  162. Elizabeth Hamre

    OHHHHH I HAVE THE ANSWER TOO, just not written it here. I have a whole post in my blog.. What hit me is while in exchange of communication no matter if I am agreeing or not ensures the present of the communicator, also communication is creation-experience from which one receive stimulation and communication is putting one in constant re-stimulation.: give me, give me, give me! exchange of stimulation. but to be right is: existence.

  163. Elizabeth Hamre

    🙂 howdy? I think that is cowboy talk, greeting? yes.. thought are not right or wrong.. they are just thoughts.

  164. Hi back marildi!
    Did you happen to notice any parallels to LRH in the May Baker Eddy story?

  165. The instant we seem to depart from NOW we create the illusion of time. Time seems to be a linear track laid out before us. Each step we take we go forward in time and all previous steps are our past. In our journey through time and space we seem to be learning something that we did not know. Because we can never see the whole of time we don’t recognize that it is not linear but circular and we are going round and round and round the same loop of time. We continue to believe there is a future but there is only the past for every step we take is a step we have taken before. “This has all happened before and it will happen again.” But…if we learn that there is nothing to learn, that we always had everything, always knew everything, that we never lacked for anything…with that recognition we will wake up in NOW realizing we never actually departed.

    ‘We shall not cease from exploration. And the end of our exploring will be to arrive where we began and know the place for the very first time’.
    ~ TS Eliot.


    On another note…one of the things I really appreciated about that series was the music score compose by Bear McCreary. For kicks here’s the opening music played at the beginning of each episode.

    lyrics and a translation to the chant…

    oṃ bhūr bhuvaḥ svaḥ tát savitúr váreniyaṃ bhárgo devásya dhīmahi dhíyo yó naḥ pracodáyāt

    …and the tanslation…

    We meditate upon the radiant
    Divine Light of that adorable
    Sun of Spiritual Consciousness;
    May it awaken our intuitional consciousness

  166. christianscientology

    Hi Mark

    Your post got me thinking. For many years now I have been saying “I have finally bracketed life and its entirety can be summed up in (LOVE and UNDERSTANDING).

    To explain what I mean by this I use the analogy of a jigsaw puzzle. Life is like a gigantic puzzle; now most people when doing a jigsaw first sort out all the edge pieces and proceed to make the boarder. When that is done they know the size of the jigsaw and that is what I have done with life. I don’t know the entire picture yet but I have all the edge pieces and when put together they amount to LOVE and UNDERSTANDING.

    The next step is to complete the picture, but this is a very large jigsaw. I find other people also working on the jigsaw and I notice one group is working on say a horse and cart. As I watch them I see others working on a glade of trees. These two groups think they are working on different puzzles and so are oblivious to each other. However I notice a little bit of green on the horse’s ear and realise the horse and cart are in fact part of the scene that includes the glade of trees, and so I go on fitting together the various parts of the jigsaw.

    Now there is a bit more. If you have ever done a jigsaw you can often find a piece that seems to have no place in the puzzle but to reject it and put it in the bin is unwise because the time will come when you need that rejected piece to finish the puzzle, and so it is with each person. We reject anyone at our peril for the time will come when we need that person to complete the puzzle that we might see the complete picture or as scripture says “Now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face …….”

    Love and ARC

  167. christianscientology

    Yo! O.T. Wog

    For a ‘wog’ that is incredibly clear thinking (just joking) of course it is “acceptable randomity?”

    That is true. Total cause would require one to make a unique first selection. See my post to Oracle.

    In the (story) of Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane he is having to make a choice between A THETAN and THETA, this is the choice that lies before each one of us. Do I choose INDIVIDUALITY or INDIVISABILITY? The first one leads to death, the second to ETERNAL LIFE.

    I heard that the word EGO could be seen as an acronym for “Edge God Out”. Willing effect is when we say “NOT MY WILL BUT YOURS BE DONE” then the result is total cause.


  168. christianscientology

    Hi Oracle

    When one is “in love” it is very easy to be willing effect and from experience it certainly makes you feel that nothing is impossible. I think that is how we all were when we were in the CofS. We fell “in love” with the idea of helping LRH clear the planet and as long as we were in love with Ron’s dream it seemed nothing was impossible, it was as we realised that our guru had feet of clay that it all came tumbling down, but while the dream lasted TOTAL CAUSE was a present time reality.


  169. This is the issue with discussing “the invisible”. Nobody really needs to prove a point. The idea is to exchange our points of view. And I doubt any two will the same. Just interesting. The truth is, people think with what makes sense to them. Even though it might not work for someone else.
    We are all unique. I didn’t mean to suggest anyone is wrong. I only meant to say, “From where I am viewing…”

    Your thoughtful and insightful views are always a pleasure to read.

  170. 😛 😉

  171. So far, the eloquent way MarkNR expressed it in a comment today is the “existence” I’m still interested in:

    “…the richness of life, the beauty of experience, the pleasure of playing the game, the very splendor of existence. Without it, you’re sitting in no space, by yourself, doing nothing.” –MarkNR

  172. I liked what the elderly Siddhartha (in the novel) told his childhood friend:

    “…for every true statement there is an opposite one that is also true; that language and the confines of time lead people to adhere to one fixed belief that does not account for the fullness of the truth.”

  173. MarkNR: “Conversely, an individual’s case can improve as they bring order into their environ.”

    Now that you mention the converse, I get the idea that IT might be just as “mystical” as one’s machinery reflecting one’s case. And btw, what I got LRH to mean about the latter wan’t just “case in good shape = machinery in good shape.” Rather, he meant that (paraphrased) “specifically what is going on with one’s case, in terms of the mechanics of it = what goes on with the machinery.”

    If this is true, then beings are not only connected to and continuously influenced by one another but by and to MEST as well.

  174. Oracle, you post some of the best songs!

  175. Honesty is the best policy! 🙂

  176. Pip, you talk real good.

    Dumb jokes aside, I love how you think – and how you write. 🙂

  177. Elizabeth Hamre

    Marildi../. you really believe if we do not play the game what one has learned here is the only game in the Universe?
    When Mark will confront: no space, emptiness, void, nothing-ness, darkness and what really LIGHT MEANS than the concepts of by-self, groups, me, I, self, others, alone.. and few more related considerations than he will realise that there are no such conditions as the above and there are other worthwhile games existing.
    Marildi… there are infinite different realities and what the ”eyes”’ sees is nothing in comparison what we can create and do without the body.
    Here is something, think about it: what made the being believe what the eyes see is real, what made the person believe that one only can ” see” and live in the light?
    the darkness is not dark, the darkness is full of light and with beings who can play a wonderful game and there light and bodies or solidity is not needed nor sounds or verbal communication.!

  178. Elizabeth Hamre

    PS: it is good that you do since you don’t have the choice to play anything different, I don’t mean this as a put down, I am here too!

  179. I agree, Monte, the music is great. I also got a kick out of the takeoff on “The Last Supper” picture!

    You wrote: “But…if we learn that there is nothing to learn, that we always had everything, always knew everything, that we never lacked for anything…with that recognition we will wake up in NOW realizing we never actually departed.”

    Nicely said. That’s like the song Marty posted in the blog post right after this one. I think there is truth to this idea, which I’ve recently had glimpses of myself, by coincidence (or not 😉 ).

    But I have to admit, I got a different idea at first of what you meant by the “but.” If you would go so far as to say that existence is simply a preordained determinism, with no free will involved, that doesn’t ring true for me. But… that’s probably not what you meant. 🙂

  180. Oh, yeah! I noticed a number of parallels. And I got the idea that her intentions were for the greatest good, even if misguided – again like LRH.

  181. By “…how you write,” I meant the way you express your ideas – signature Pip.

  182. Monte, I found Ouspensky’s conceptualization of 6 dimensions helpful to my understanding – 3 dimensions of space, and 3 dimensions of time. It seems to me to wrap things up pretty neatly:

  183. Wonderful story, Pip.
    Any piece of the puzzle, beautiful or ugly, leaves the picture incomplete.

    Also, if all the pieces are the same, perfect and pure, there is no picture, no activity, a blank field. Beauty, by necessity includes differences, activity, creativity.

    Secondly, spill coffee and dirt on the picture and the beauty is soiled, covered up. Clean the foreign material that has been added, spilled on the picture and the beauty can then be realized. Cleaning the picture requires the right cleaner, the right cloths, and skillful effort, activity, motion. Doingness.

    BECOME a skilled active cleaner. DO the cleaning, inspection, recleaning.
    HAVE the happiness and ability, beauty, once earned.

  184. Thank you Oracle.
    Your thoughts and comments are always valuable to me. We are lucky to have you.
    ARCL, Mark

  185. Marildi.
    You have pointed out something that, in my view, is astoundingly important that I have completely missed in all this time. It is extremely simple, yet I have never seen it mentioned elsewhere.

    One indicator of a persons general case shape is the order/disorder in his immediate environment. This can include any machinery in his charge. That is sensible, well known and verified by mine and most others observations.

    THIS ALSO INCLUDES THE MENTAL/SPIRITUAL MACHINERY WHICH ONE USES TO OPERATE IN THIS BODY, SOCIETY, WORLD, UNIVERSE. One’s case shape will determine, generally, how well he handles energy and masses in his most immediate charge, his mind.

    This is a general, unspecific principle, but some generalized principles are important. Just as with Life Continuum, if a person decides to have bad eyesight, he will restimulate whatever part of his bank that will produce it. A general yet sometimes workable approach.

    Exercises/auditing which are specifically directed at placing order in the mechanics of one’s mind could be very therapeutic when done at the right time. There is some of this in “the tech” but I believe it is lacking and underdeveloped. Much of it was dropped after the 50s, early 60s. It could go along with and assist in the primary task of examining and understanding one’s past.

    Thanks Marildi

  186. Always audit with the intention of INCREASING the awareness, ability, happiness, self determinism etc. etc. of the PC. Barring too much false data, you will never go wrong. Common sense trumps policy, as long as you understand policy, good or bad, when to apply it, when not to.

  187. Yes, USA and SCN go together 😛 To be honest I’m not totally sure what it means lol. I think it means ‘how you doin?’ or ‘how are you?’

  188. christianscientology

    Hi Marty

    I was looking on the internet for information on David Hawkins and came across this book Power vs Truth. It is written by one of his most staunch admirers who was responsible for putting together his biography, in the process of which his eyes were opened to Mr Hawkins shortcomings.

    I was interested to read that when he was promoting Mr Hawkins in this book “Doctor of Truth” he referred to him as David, but when he wrote his book exposing the inconsistences of his system he calls him Hawkins.

    Here is an extract from his book:-

    “If you had told me a few years ago that I would write a book exposing the errors in Hawkins’s teachings, I would have thought you insane. After all since 2002 I’d been a staunch supporter of the man – one of his most devoted and loyal students.

    “Although you don’t need to read “Doctor of Truth” to follow this discussion, “Power vs Truth” can be seen as an extended set of appendices to the biography.

    “While the biography was written in a somewhat soft tone, here the reader will notice more scrutiny, formality and distance, signified by my use of “Hawkins” instead of David (as I referred to him in the biography) – despite my polemic tone in several places, I do not believe that Hawkins is consciously aware of his work’s limitations.”

    Although I have not as yet read your book “What is wrong with Scientology” I am guessing this book in many ways is similar.


  189. “… there are infinite different realities and what the ‘eyes’ see is nothing in comparison what we can create and do without the body.”

    E., I don’t doubt what you say – I believe it! It’s just that for most of us, this is the reality we know. And I’m not sure there can’t be a “heaven on Earth.” But until then, we do the best we can with what we’ve got. We do like the old song, “love the one you’re with.” Or, like the even older song says. “until the day that one comes along…”

  190. MarkNR: “Exercises/auditing which are specifically directed at placing order in the mechanics of one’s mind could be very therapeutic when done at the right time. There is some of this in “the tech” but I believe it is lacking and underdeveloped.”

    I can’t think of what you’re referring to, but say a bit more about it or which book or other reference has that idea, if you can recall.

    But on this subject, just a few days ago, I watched a video where that very thing is described! This woman is basically talking about how to reorder the mechanics of one’s mind with regard to the restim caused by “Psychic Vampires.” That particular construct is very much like LRH’s Suppressive Person construct, and I recall that LRH also referred to them as “vampires” in at least one issue. The characteristics are virtually the same – all the various traits described for the lower tone levels, in *Science of Survival*.

    In the video she says that no protection technique is going to save you from a psychic vampire. As soon as you get into an “us/them” worldview you are already setting yourself up to ATTRACT these “vampires.” Fear is the common denominator of BOTH the victim and the psychic vampire.

    What actually occurs (the mechanics) is that the “victim” has been influenced by the Psychic Vampire “to think thoughts that prevent the source energy from their higher consciousness from flowing through their physical body.” (Or, to put it in a Scientologese nutshell – the “victim’s” TR 0 goes out and the tone level drops.) The remedy she gives is either to raise your “vibration level” (an LRH datum too – “the joy of creating”) or simply engage in the particular BEHAVIORS that will put you outside the “vibrational range” that a Psychic Vampire can access. In essence, the mechanics of the mind are being reordered.

    The main point is that the fewer fearful thoughts you think, the less fearful you will feel and thus the vibration you hold will be too high to be engaged – and this actually goes for either side of a relationship of vampirism and is the remedy for both! She ends by noting that all of us have a little bit of psychic vampirism in us.

  191. Hello Erzsebet.
    I see your point. You assume I am thinking small. Far from it. Take a closer look at the games universes era. An explosion of creativity and diversity lasting for, well, almost forever. Interaction and activity galore. Every kind of existence you and the rest of us could imagine. An interactive carnival of varying systems of existence the likes of which make the large common universes of late seem mundane in the extreme.

    But like an oppressive teacher in a 19th century British classroom, a few decided that what was needed, what was correct, was a completely controlled, extremely ordered, nice and quiet environment. The thought that anyone or any group could build their own universe with whatever rules they wished, and invite friends or even passersby to come and play or even add to the creativity, just wouldn’t do. We can’t have that.

    So they built ever larger and more orderly spaces with ever stricter rules. They told us it was more “fair” for everyone. No more confusion. No more having to learn new rules as you went from one space to the next. Made sense at the time. And you were coerced and tricked, and eventually punished into believing that this was the way to go, the right thing to do. Armed with a knowledge of considerations, opinions, desires, fears that most of us had built up and forgotten during our past, they carefully guided us into these traps, convinced this was the best way to go.

    The large common universes, like this one.

    But that wasn’t their only intent, to make life better for us all. They “knew” they were smarter and superior to the rest of us and it was up to them to decide how things were going to be. And they should be in charge. The average guy wasn’t worthy. Only they had the wisdom and ability to control everything. And as a bonus, they would be respected, revered, feared and looked upon as, dare we say it, Gods. The Masters of the Universe. Total communism on a scale difficult to even comprehend.

    Not only that, we were carefully and cleverly dumbed down to a point where this all seemed acceptable to us. We would squabble and argue over the nature of a photon while they would laugh and pass judgement over our activities, for our own (and especially their own) good.

    And to really clinch the inescapable nature of this prison, we have all played the role of Master. Want to get ahead, become more than you are, become the boss, be a king yourself. “Yes, that’s right, I’ll be in charge. I’ll fix everyone.” That is the strongest door in the entire prison. (Auditing on 3 or 4 flows was a stroke of pure genius by Ron or one of his assistants)

    No, Erzsebet, I have no intention of limiting myself to any one system of existence. The possibilities are infinite. I learned the limitation of light entering eyeballs, years ago while doing OT-TR-0. That was just a tiny taste of what is to come. “The universe is my playground” is just barely the beginning.

    All I gotta do is get my foot unstuck from this mud hole. It is so thick and sticky, I can barely wiggle my toes. OK, I can wiggle my ankle just a little bit this way, then that way. Now up a millimeter or two. Oh well, I’ll work on it. I might need a hand in a little while. Got any rope? A stick? I’m open to suggestion.
    ARCL, Mark

  192. Elizabeth Hamre

    Mark Hi…. no other suggestions but the 4 flows on the Rudiments using all the buttons.
    At first I used, has anything been suppressed, when I run out on supressed items than went to deeper layer: I used deeply suppressed, than totally suppressed, than I added few more like: when they have become invisible, made invisible, hidden in nothing, hidden in darkness, than I went into locating “secrets” now that was totally fun to run on 4 flows.
    I worked on locating secrets for months. than I did ”treasure hunt” looked for valuables which were left behind, hidden for safe keeping!. hehehe we hide the most incredible things which we consider valuable!
    No Mark, the only thing I added is more time… it was like fever, I have given up the regular life I had and I just audited… some days were much as 10 hours.
    The KEYED OUT PERIODS hindered me and kept me away from sessions… than I had a brilliant idea: since being keyed out was a feeling a sensation, I had considerations on that so I examined those closely and had sessions on the keyed out sensations, feelings and it was not emptiness since it was a strong floating feeling to it, happiness, lightness, separated from things… etc.. Of course ”being keyed out” is keyed into something else!!! It was a feeling good trap.. and nothing more.
    After that I could go into session no matter how much mass the cognitions have erased.
    The time come when I could recognise energy mass by them self, separately from each other how they were flowing and interacting with other energy flows and I could see their size, color, etc and than of course I could put the name =label on them.
    I really started to understand the Universe and how the energy flows worked and I understood the layering: how it was built and when the ”thoughts” were added etc..
    It was fun to see the movement of air since air it self is ”not a even see through thing” but the air contains many different thick-ness- variety energy flows and they are not in layers, the only way I can explain: they can be observed like mixed paint colors.. whirling about around each other.
    I know I got off the topic but it is fun to share…. No Mark.. there is no Magic Wand.. but digging.. I never wanted things to disappear for me because it is so much fun to examine every little thing, look for its origin, understand every little detail…I just wanted to know the Universe and now I know..
    Happy digging! much Love to you! E.

  193. christianscientology

    Hi Oracle

    To need you would make me co-dependent. My understanding of spirituality is that we should at least be inter-dependent. No man is an island and all that.


  194. christianscientology

    Hi Monte

    I also enjoyed the video. As I have said before I was born into a Christian Science family, my cousin is quite a big noise in the organisation and my wife has just joined the local Christian Science church.

    Christian Science is very similar to Scientology although they would never accept that. Ron mentions Christian Science on a tape, but from what he says I can tell he didn’t understand what Christian Science is all about. He says if my memory serves me right “Christian Science believes it is all mind, but I have got news for them we are hear”.

    That comment lets me know he hadn’t understood what Mrs Eddy was on about. First of all the mind that she is talking about is written with a capital ‘M’ and this Mind is synonymous with THETA and she goes on to say that “Man is a reflection of Divine Mind, which in Scientology terms would be A THETAN. In Christian Science healing comes about when THETA and THETAN become one. Mortal mind is considered unreal having NO SUBSTANCE in TRUTH. The fact that this often leads to DENIAL is why I call myself a ChristianScientologist, which leads to ASISNESS not NOTISNESS.

    Love and ARC

  195. christianscientology

    Hi Mark

    Yes when the pieces are actually fitted into the puzzle one knows that each unique piece was created to fit exactly where it is supposed to go.

    I think of a snow flake, each is unique but when they combine to make a snow scene they become part of the whole. In terms of cleaning it is up to us to clean ourselves as pieces, so that we can take our rightful place in the one perfect SON of God.

    Thanks Mark

  196. christianscientology

    Hi Mark

    That is good enough to be posted in large letters in a course room. COMMON SENSE TRUMPS POLICY.

    I heard another one only yesterday AWARENESS TRUMPS FEAR.


  197. christianscientology

    I agree Marildi, she would tell her students that the essence of Jesus’ teachings was Divine Love through understanding, but unfortunately they did not understand her, they believed her instead; which set in a mechanism for Christian Science to self-destruct. A subject only expands as long as it is understood, once it is only believed it starts to contract.


  198. christianscientology

    What about a Skyhook?

  199. Hello
    My name is Michelle and I live in Australia. I have been through enough in Scientology to know that things have gone bad.
    I am very upset with the fact that I will never get processing here in Australia as I joined Scientology believing it had the tech to actually help me uncover what happened to me and my sister as children.
    I believe I was part of the Mk ultra experiments in the early 60s and I have been struggling all my life. Doing better than ever though, I might add. Have studied many healing modalities.
    I would really like to have a sane terminal to talk with as there is No one here who can resembles a self determined caring being.
    Look forward to some contact!

  200. Hi Michelle,

    As fate would have it, yesterday I was reading an article written by a woman named Teal Scott. I had watched several of her youtube videos that highly impressed me, so I decided to take a look at her blog. There’s an article she wrote about the extreme ritual abuse she experienced as a child. If you want to read that article, here’s the link to it:

    Also, here’s the link that was posted was at the bottom of Teal’s article: That website states the following on the Home page:

    “S.M.A.R.T. [Stop Mind Control and Ritual Abuse Today] ritual abuse newsletter was founded in 1995 by Neil Brick. The purpose of S.M.A.R.T. is to help stop ritual abuse and child abuse and to help those who have been ritually abused. We work toward this goal by disseminating information on the connections between secretive organizations, ritual abuse, and mind control, by encouraging healing from the damage done by child abuse, ritual abuse and mind control, and by encouraging survivors to network.”

    Best wishes,

  201. “Do not believe in what you have heard; do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations; do not believe anything because it is rumored and spoken of by many; do not believe merely because the written statement of some old sage is produced; do not believe in conjectures; do not believe merely in the authority of your teachers and elders. After observation and analysis, when it agrees with reason and it is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
    – Kalama Sutta

    Pip, the above was quoted in the first pages of the book you recommended, *POWER VS.TRUTH, Peering Behind the Teachings of David R. Hawkins* by Scott Jeffrey.

    Love, marildi

  202. “A subject only expands as long as it is understood, once it is only believed it starts to contract.”
    –Pip Threlfall

    (another excellent quote )

  203. LOL

  204. christianscientology

    Hi Michelle

    Your post caught my attention as I am sure it did for others. Please tell me a bit more about yourself, either through Marty’s blog or direct. My e-mail address is

    I look forward to hearing from you.

    Kind regards

  205. Hi Michelle! Good to read from someone who asks for help. It must be the first time I read such a thing in a SCN discussion –ironic isn’t it? I hope in more! I think to offer help for a price is like trading, but help is help –free and for free. You can help back if you want, but it’s not mandatory. I like it,

    I have no idea about Mk ultra, I don’t deliver any services, I’m no Aussie, but I’m a relatively self determined, caring being. So suit yourself 🙂

  206. spyrosillusionist

    You know, it’s not nice (it doesn’t add up to more understanding) when somebody writes something and the other makes a whole evaluation ‘why did he write that’ and ‘what is he implying’ etc. I’m reffering to SCN. To sit and figure out what O/Ws and what SP case and hidden evil intentions and what other case makes one say what he says, is evaluation/invalidation. It isn’t granting beingness. It is a kind of witch-hunting/war. It doesn’t help in anything.

    The right to leave a game is fundamental in SCN theory and explained by LRH also in SHSBC tapes. He has also reffered to -numerous times- leaving the game of MEST universe –leave alone the game of SCN which is part of the game of MEST.

    Help is voluntary. Loyalty is voluntary too –self determined. I want to be loyal to my friends and goals, no matter the odds. I haven’t given up to the long term goals I had in SCN (namely actual freedom). What I changed was the routes, because the group’s route -I consider- doesn’t lead where I want –at least not all the way.

    If somebody cannot grasp that, the least he can do -at least for as long as he is not threatened himself- is to grant a little beingness, and quit invalidating whomever doesn’t follow his route, as stupid, SP or otherwise wrong, guilty and inferior.

    People come here because they want to, and discuss with each other because they want to, and discuss the topics they want to. They don’t have to like nor dislike SCN -as far as I know- in order to participate. I don’t like the bashing of others (most bashed ever: LRH) and I don’t want to contribute to it, although I did in the past. But we can of course discuss and analyse the subject ‘SCN’ or any other subject and learn from each other while allowing each other to be free.

    The honest people that deliver to help, I care for and I’m glad they do what they do. Even if I disagreed with the tech (I disagree with some tech and many ideas), I consider the intention (in this case ‘to help’) superior to any technique. You want to help? You can –even by the technique ‘chit chat’. You don’t want to help? You wont, no matter the technique.

  207. Along that line, I heartily recommend a book titled “Lost Christianity” by Jacob Needleman.

  208. Wow marildi, it just clicked, that what the CoS is doing these days is not LRH Tech, but in many cases, precisely “ritual abuse”! The 6 month sec checks for example.
    Why? Good question. ( I praise myself 🙂 )
    I think it is “overdetermined” which in psychiatric lingo means there are several reasons or causes. One obviously is money for DM and reges; another is about power and control, especially in being able to worsen others; another is just plain robotism, and so on.

  209. Hi
    It is so nice to make some contact!
    Thanks for your replies.
    I am also a victim of severe Ritual abuse and I joined Scientology because I thought I would get some help.
    I am a very caring person so I got caught up with helping in so many other portions of the group.
    What I have learned is that in most religions,on the lower levels,
    the people are all really good and want to help.
    As they move up the ranks they become more conditioned and programmed to the group. Self determinism is lost and many atrocities are performed for the greater cause!
    I was fortunate to recognise where scientology was headed so I got out.
    I still suffer from post traumatic feelings of what I went through as a child so it would be nice to get some REAL auditing. I am sorry you have also experienced ritual abuse!
    Regards and best wishes

  210. I haven’t heard the term “ritual abuse” applied to what the CoS is doing, but I think you’re right! Yikes.

  211. Thanks, Val. That looks like a great book: “…a profound reexamination of the essence of Christian thought and faith.”

    I found a really interesting video of a 7-minute portion of a talk by the author of that book,Jacob Needleman, tilted “Why bother listening to opinions you disagree with?” It made me think of blog discussions, for some reason. 🙂

  212. Hi Pip!
    This concept you conveyed just might be what it’s (whatever ‘it’ is) all about: “… healing comes about when THETA and THETAN become one.” My translation: when duality becomes non-duality.

    Pip, I suspect that you will enjoy this video interview with Lisa Cairns regarding the essence of duality and non-duality.

  213. christianscientology

    Thanks Marildi

  214. christianscientology

    Hi Marildi,
    Yes I think “Power vs Truth” may be a more useful read than “Power vs Force.


  215. Elizabeth Hamre

    Spyros… if you read your post line by line you will see that every one is evaluation… ”exp” honest…. care… help..loyalty…grant beigness… etc.. We cant get away from that when in thinking-communicating in any form.
    My reality 🙂

  216. christianscientology

    Enjoyed it Monte! I almost wet myself.( my wife didn’t want me to say that, but she’s more refined than me) This Lisa is some lady, but when the YouTube ended there was another on with her and Tim Freke whose book I am currently reading The Mystery Experience.

    We as Scientologists are in such a privileged position because we know THE STORY to the ‘nth degree but the missing factor is THE MYSTERY. The Mystery is LOVE, the Story is UNDERSTANDING. Monte excuse my arrogance but you are only one step away from a ChristianScientologist. I know you study the Course and that homes in on the Mystery. As the Course says “God will take the final step” and that is the whole point, he has already done that. God took the final step in reconciling us in The Lord Jesus Christ. That is the complete deal; to be a “Born again Christian” and a “Clear Scientologist”.

    To get back to your post, it is not that THETA and A THETAN become one, but the recognition that YOU AS A THETAN is THETA EXPRESSING, that is non-duality expressing as duality, or LOVE expressing as UNDERSTANDING.


    A Christian expressing as a Scientologist, neither a Christian or a Scientologist, or a Christian and a Scientologist – A ChristianScientologist.

    End of rant.

    Love and ARC

  217. Hi, Marty–I’m sure you know this, but perhaps not everyone does. When I was in college (back before the Civil War) a book that was being widely read was “Language in Thought and Action” by the semanticist and linguist S.I. Hayakawa. (Just a historical note for those of you who AREN’T as old as dirt: Hayakawa also had some well-publicized clashes with the student protest movement, for unrelated reasons.) I’m just mentioning this because if anyone is interested, Hayakawa was a sort of protegee of Korzybski, and he is MUCH easier to read. Both of them wrote a lot about “directive language,” which I believe must have been a big influence on L. Ron Hubbard. Having read this material helps me in following some of the arguments you are developing. And even if people haven’t heard of Korzybski, his influence is still an undercurrent in the directions of the last 50 years.

  218. christianscientology

    Thanks Marildi and Val.

    I watched the Youtube you mentioned and some more of Jacob Needleman. What a lovely gentle guy he is. I particularly liked

    Thank you both for introducing me to him.


  219. Yes Elizabeth. My point was that to evaluate for the sake of pointing out/creating case in another, and thus invalidate him, is something that resembles Scientology’s most behated foe –psychology/psychiatry. Like ‘Is somebody different? He is crazy. Does he think/talk about OT stuff? Crazy. Is he obviously angry? He is crazy’…and so on.

    By the way, -a bit irrelevant- LRH invalidated psychiatry/logy too, to communicate something to the reader –probably protect him from something. But he didn’t form factions to attack them. That according to SCN itself is a way to make things persist –it’s called counter-creation/not-isness. That which you fight, you will have, he said. My point was, fighting in the name of SCN is BS according to SCN itself.

  220. Plus MarkNR, from another point of view, if you look at Scientology in a very logical way, based on the church’s reported fake expansion statistics, is it really possible that this many people could have already fit in the available church saunas to have completed their Purif’s already since it was released? 🙂

  221. RamseyPower

    Thank you so very much for sharing your thoughts re awakening Seems like you might have made it through the crazy path one must take after leaving Scn.
    I, for one, having left scn after 24 years, could totally relate to your thoughts.
    I wish you the very best.

  222. Thank you, Pip. Jacob Needleman is underappreciated, I think precisely because he does not trumpet that he has “THE SOLUTION!” to ethical, moral and philosophical problems. He has a lot of thoughtful penetrating questions instead. He has been teaching at San Francisco State University for decades. I think of him as “the Philosopher of Conscience”.

    He’s written a lot of books. I’ve read just a few, but I feel I can recommend any of them.

  223. When the Purif was first released, “the Church” did not have its own saunas.

    I and everyone else in my area did the sauna part at saunas generally available to the public. A number of us did it at various University athletic facilities which have saunas, in Ann Arbor.

  224. Elizabeth Hamre

    Spyros… thanks my dear for the explanation.. I am not into scientology… I bought the tech, and used that and it ends there. My battles were fought in sessions. David ST. Lawrence on his blogs front page put my name-blog under ” Life beyond scientology inc'” and I totally agree on that.. My ba

  225. spyrosillusionist

    I’m glad Eliza 🙂

  226. Pip, this is just for fun: today I saw a bumper sticker that said “There’s no place like Ommmm.”

  227. This is just the thought of a never-in about what I have heard about Purif Rundown practices: if they are applied in the same way to participants, without careful attention paid to age, gender, weight, blood chemistry, state of fitness and so on…they are DANGEROUS. Really. I’m not in senile collapse, but let’s just say no one is going to hire me to pole dance, although for my age I’m in pretty good shape. However, if I were made to sit in a sauna for long periods and do some of the other supposed “de-tox” things involving substances that for one reason or another L. Ron thought were OK…
    Well, actually, it probably WOULD purify me, in the sense that I would be in a coma or dead. I’m amazed that some of the well-known Scientology figures who have “disappeared” and are now, say, in their late 60s, who are made to do hard labor or run around a pole in terrific heat don’t drop like flies. Or perhaps they do and we don’t know it because they have been Shellyized?

  228. Hi again Pip. Glad to hear that you enjoyed the interview with Lisa Cairns. How she spoke of non-duality really tweaked some of my perspectives. I watched about half of the video with her and Tim Freke but then Tim just got way too intellectual for me and it seemed to me that he was more concerned with being right in his views than he was in actually exploring the topic.

    In the interview with Lisa it was as if all these huge concepts got reduced down to such simplicity it was almost comical. I was thinking of the millions of words that Hubbard espoused over the years regarding his beliefs, then the half million words or so that are in A Course in Miracles and now, all the way down to probably only a few thousand words spoken in a 44 min interview. In writing this I am reminded of a quote from one of the talking heads, Ken Gordon, in The New Thought movie. Ken says:

    “It doesn’t matter whether it’s Science of Mind, Unity, Protestant, Catholic or A Course in Miracles, and it doesn’t matter where it came from or how it was derived. That language is the language of Jesus and every great avatar and mystic that has ever been. And that is, that love is the answer and we are one.”

    Pip, as for me being one step away from being a ChristianScientologist…well…it might be many more steps than that. I do believe that I have almost transcended the need for labels. However, I have kept the “Monte” label for the sake of convenience. 🙂 Speaking of labels, a few years ago after I had ceased identifying myself as a scientologist, I felt somewhat vulnerable and exposed to the world. My identification as a scientologist, after thirty plus years, had become a considerably formidable shield through which I confronted the world. Discarding that shield made me feel quite naked. That said, around that time I wrote a blog about searching for a label. Here’s an excerpt from that blog:

    “How I came to have a need and want to find a new and, hopefully, appropriate label rose up out of a moment of self-recongnition that, in the two highly exalted label categories of RELIGION and POLITICS, I did not have a label! And I realized that I had been unable to acquire a suitable label because when it came to these two categories, I was all over the freakin place. I am a mosaic of beliefs, opinions and points of view gleaned from all extremes and everything in between. And to not have, at least some sort of label, with regards to the practically deified categories of religion and politics, just isn’t good for social intercourse. And if it’s not good for social intercourse it’s not good for survival. Furthermore, there is this tacit law of the universe that requires, upon such an incident of a person not being able to offer up a political or religious label for which to categorize themselves for the benefit of others or self, others are free to arbitrarily assign whatever damn label they choose to the most unfortunate individual.”

    Ha! Those were the days.

  229. christianscientology

    Hi Monte

    Yes I did enjoy the interview with Lisa Cairns, but then I went on to watch one with Tony Parsons who is someone I went to hear many years ago. I could not help noticing how similar Tony is to Lisa, and then it struck me I was looking at a type of madness. I was fooled somewhat watching Lisa because I was being beguiled by her feminine charms, but when I saw the same in Tony without the feminine wiles that is the conclusion I have come to.

    I believe in Hinduism this state is both venerated and seen as a sort of Holy Madness. It is as if the Mystery so takes over that the mind is detached. In Scientology the opposite eventually happens, the mind takes over which produces an Unholy madness.

    I post on an ACIM forum and I posted the Lisa video and this is what one of the ACIM lady’s had to say.

    “I woke this morning thinking about the video of Lisa and felt empty. Is this it? Is this really all there is? It sounds disinteresting to let go. Tim wants love and all the things that he believes love is. Sounds more interesting”.

    I just happened to look on Tim Freke’s website and since there was a telephone number I rang it, and got to speak with his wife. She said they were running a Retreat in three weeks’ time and had one double room left, and would my wife and I care to take it, so it seems we are booked in on a Tim Freke Mystery Experience weekend from 25th-27th April.

    Monte I am interested what happened when you ceased identifying yourself as a scientologist, did you then see yourself as an ex-scientologist? For me it was relatively easy I went from Scientologist to Christian then to Christian and Scientologist, then to no label at all, and then to ChristianScientologist. In one sense this leaves me “Billy no-mates” but in another it gives me access to all belief systems, because when I express it as LOVE and UNDERSTANDING it opens all doors.

    What you write re your blog is most interesting and I agree for the need for a label so that you can be recognised for “social intercourse” and this is why I shall be wearing a sweat-shirt at the Tim Freke Retreat which will have my logo from my website on the front and on the back “LOVE WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING IS INCOMPLETE. UNDERSTANDING WITHOUT LOVE IS DANGEROUS. LOVE WITH UNDERSTANDING IS DIVINE.

    Love and ARC

  230. christianscientology

    Hi Val

    He might not have the solution but what he had to say about duplication is spot on.

    Thanks again

  231. David Light the former registrar at Flag had a heart attack in the mid 90’s and was trasferred to CLO EUS. I saw him in New York once and spoke to him and this is how I know. He was New OT V and told me himself that he had the heart attack. Other than this he seemed dazed. He had completed a Purif much earlier on or he would not have been allowed onto his NOT’s. That is if standard tech was ever in practice at Flag. 🙂

  232. christianscientology

    Is that as in Ommm is where the ‘ART is or should that be a ‘c’ and not a ‘T’


  233. Dear Mr. Rathbun,

    Thank you very much for your work, courage, and inspiration.

    In “Awakening from scientology,” you quote David R. Hawkins, author of the book Power vs. Force. You state, “Scientologists come to know about scientology and in the process are convinced that they know all there is to know.” After years of studying Dr. Hawkins’ work, I can assure you that this is similar for Hawkins students. In “Awakening – Part II,” you quote from the Daodejing (Tao Te Ching): “Not-knowing is true knowledge. Presuming to know is a disease.” Dr. Hawkins’ teachings may support not-knowing, in line with the perennial philosophy and wisdom traditions, yet his Hawkins Applied Kinesiology (HAK) system fosters in Hawkins students false knowledge; it is a true detriment to spiritual evolution and an empty or open mind. As with Scientology, HAK offers an illusion of certainty.

    I also love the novel Siddhartha. That book really speaks to one finding one’s own way, and discovering truth for oneself, without reliance on teachers. In regard to this novel, you wrote, “Clinging to one-stop enlightenment sources can defeat the entire purpose of the quest.” I assure you that, unfortunately, some Hawkins students do treat Hawkins’ teachings as one-stop enlightenment; Hawkins himself has stated that his work alone is sufficient to lead one to enlightenment (a statement he ‘calibrated’ with HAK as true).

    As with Scientology, Hawkins’ teachings are, “A system of thought purporting to be the ‘science of certainty’…” Incidentally, scientists do not claim certainty or absolute truth. You state that Scientology “overtly asserts the goal and product of boiling all of creation down to simplistic blacks and whites…” Note that the original book cover for Power vs. Force (a dualistic, black-and-white concept) is itself black-and-white. You write that such thinking, in line with the Dao (Tao), may “potentially be the conveyor of a sort of sickness.” This, too, is the experience of longtime Hawkins students, such as Scott Jeffrey, who wrote Dr. Hawkins’ biography and a critical book titled Power vs. Truth: Peering Behind the Teachings of David R. Hawkins. Your statement that, “The resultant awareness myopia – the death of life-promoting curiosity – is held firmly in place by ego and pride,” is unfortunately applicable to Hawkins’ teachings. The quotation you provide from Power vs. Force regarding pride is particularly related with Dr. Hawkins’ struggles with alcoholism, and recovery, which he found through AA. This is detailed in Scott Jeffrey’s biography, Doctor of Truth: The Life of David R. Hawkins, which I suggest reading before becoming much more involved in Dr. Hawkins’ work, if one is so inclined.

    I agree with your statement, in “Awakening – Part III,” that “I would suggest to people at the outset not to latch onto Hawkins as they once latched onto Hubbard.” Dr. Hawkins’ teachings seem to be helpful for some Scientologists, because they are similar to Hubbard’s teachings, yet provide greater spiritual context. It is worth noting, however, that Dr. Hawkins borrowed his Map of Consciousness from Lester Levenson and Vern Black, both of whom were influenced by Hubbard. That is, the emotional tone scale is the original source of Hawkins’ Map. Please see Secrets of David R. Hawkins: Map of Consciousness, which demonstrates this.

    Hawkins’ Map ultimately traces back to the time of Hippocrates by way of Hubbard, a point uncovered initially by research of Jon Atack.

    I agree with much of what you say in “Awakening – Part III.” There are some points that I would elaborate on, however. For example, “Hubbard sought to command whereas Hawkins sought to teach.” This is the image of Dr. Hawkins, but there is another side that may be discovered in Jeffrey’s book Power vs. Truth. Jeffrey, an adherent and colleague of Hawkins for about a decade, refers to the “Devotional Nonduality community” as a “cult.” Scientologists do not see Hawkins’ teachings as representing a cult, but I think that is because their experience in Scientology was so negative by comparison. On the other hand, Dr. Hawkins drew from some truly great teachers of nonduality, such as Sri Ramana Maharshi, and Zen teachers, including Huang Po. I believe that this is what makes his teachings more profound than Scientology. But, Hawkins’ teachings are a mixture of Scientology and nonduality. Therefore, I would suggest instead the teachers that even Hawkins recommends, including Maharshi, Po, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Meister Eckhart, the Buddha, Jesus, the Bhagavad Gita, and so on. The calibration (HAK) system is really at odds with nonduality, and Hawkins’ teachings don’t seem to lead one to enlightenment in the end. This is not to diminish their value on the path out of Scientology, however. It is noteworthy that Hawkins calibrated Scientology and Hubbard as being negative or below 200; but, ironically, this derives from Hubbard’s 2.0! See:

    Click to access Calibrate.pdf

    I completely agree with your statement, “Power vs. Force can at once reinforce what of value one may have gotten from his scientology experience while piquing interest in other potential horizons beyond it.” It is the horizons beyond this book, which takes one progressively on their path, that is of true importance. I believe the key, as you mention, is not to latch onto it and Hawkins’ teachings in general. As you point out, according to “Alfred Korzybski, ‘the map is not the territory.’” Yet, Hawkins offers another map–based on Hubbard’s, no less. It has not been ascertained that Hawkins was directly influenced by Hubbard, though he definitely was through Levenson (Release Technique/Sedona Method) and Black (who worked for Erhard and est); however, it is possible that Hawkins was directly influence by Hubbard. Consider that Hawkins borrowed the basics of Hubbard’s tone scale, and even the titles of their respective books are similar; namely, Power vs. Force: The Hidden Determinants of Human Behavior (1995), and Science of Survival: Prediction of Human Behavior (1951).

    Maxim46zbitnoff’s comment is accurate: “Like Hubbard in his first book Hawkins says anyone can do it. For Hubbard it was auditing, for Hawkins, muscle testing, aka applied kinesiology. But seeing that others were not coming up with the same results Hawkins, in a similar way to Hubbard becoming “source”, was elevated to being the only person who could truly calibrate (muscle test) levels of consciousness. Though his writing can be inspiring it can also be dogmatic.”

    By the way, Dr. Hawkins did not write 21 books. Rather, he wrote nine books (one of which, Letting Go, was based on Levenson’s work, though Hawkins did not cite him), one minor compilation of dialogues, co-edited one book in 1973 with Nobelist Linus Pauling on megavitamin therapy for people who suffer from schizophrenia (a practice deemed not to work by the majority of physicians), had two books published that were compilations of previous works edited by Scott Jeffrey, and one doctoral dissertation—which was completed through Columbia Pacific University, an unaccredited distance learning school that was shut down by court order due to having “virtually no academic standards.” All told, this amounts to fourteen works.

    Another comment stressed that Hawkins emphasized personal responsibility and that “NO one has the power to hurt you without your consent.” While Dr. Hawkins studied A Course in Miracles, which may say similar things, it is worth remembering that Hawkins took the est training, and Erhard was influenced by Hubbard. Erhard even stated that Jewish people were responsible for their experiences and deaths in Nazi concentration camps. Surely some moderation might be applied to the concept of personal responsibility. The comment also stated, “i think graduating from Scientology requires studying many different teachers and choosing the one that resonates with you— to give the most attention to.” I would caution against this perspective, since it might turn into another guru-worship, cult-type of situation. Rather, if we learn from life (as Hawkins mentioned) and one another, that is better than setting up one individual as the master of all, so to speak. As Mr. Rathbun quoted from the DDJ (Tao Te Ching), “If you overesteem great men, people become powerless.”

    There is already a discussion of David R. Hawkins’ teachings at ESMB:

    It includes a number of links, so I won’t repeat them here, except the most important.

    Secrets of David R. Hawkins: Map of Consciousness

    Secrets of David R. Hawkins: Hawkins Applied Kinesiology

    Doctor of Truth, The Life of David R. Hawkins

    Power vs. Truth: Peering Behind the Teachings of David R. Hawkins

    Thank you for reading and for helping so many people, Mr. Rathbun.

    Best wishes.

  234. martyrathbun09

    Thanks for the very thorough rundown.

  235. Dear Mr. Rathburn,

    I found my way out of this thought-slavery of Hubbards genius brainwash also with Buddhas teachings and with Hawkings chart and his tests. And with wise fellows, Buddhists, Spiritists, clearly thinking people – all were very unpretentiously, I had a quite good way out.

    So I could by self testing – with pendulum and a consciousness table on pdf – see and compare a lot of things. Several people tested my questions very similar. Of course, not all results were like these from Hawkins, as the pendulum only shows what you ask in mind and not more. But this very precise. So everyone can test every datum of every „wise“ men on falseness or truth (and if it is your own truth, it is better than one you got in your mind of a cult leader :-). It works. And it is not like Hubbards weird scales.

    But the best is: everyone gets a feeling of what is a good direction and which one is wrong: p. e. „I am god“ (OT) tests bad „I am within god“ (like all advaita-religions) tests good. And meanwhile I must not test much as I got back a good intuitive feeling, a natural feeling of what is “good” or “negative” for me or others. And this is really life-saving.

    I also could see, that Hubbard had a lot of hatred on good people like Einstein, Freud, Jung, Mysticans, Philosophers etc. etc. It is a crazy and a paradox world of thinking, what Hubbard created. And a black Stasi-world with hopeful-honey-auditing as an entrance.

    So, I think you cannot compare both peoples. And by my reading and that result of others: Hawkins never showed up as a leader. He leaded me to really relaxed wise people like Buddha and Zen, Ramana, Eckart, etc. with good wavelengths and honor.

    And since I am out of this cult, I never felt so long and continuously good in my life. This computing prison of mind, which was created by Hubbard, broke away, like glass. All this computations on other peoples went away.

    So the best process is: go out of this cult and you are free.

    Maybe this is nothing for a linear, binary thinking Scientologist. So look on your ways of getting a clear head.

    And if you are still not sure what this person called L. Ron Hubbard is: read Millers biography “the bare-faced-messiah”.

  236. Dear Readers,

    does anybody know, how many persons have been in “the hole” RPF to become brainwashed?

    Which known management-people is still on a remarkable post?

    It seems that the old should go, and the second generation should come, like in Maos refreshments of his managements or Hitlers “Hitlerjugend”.

    I was more than impressed, when I saw this movie on you tube. On the other hand, these are the written rules from L. Ron Hubbard himself. and basically written so up from the beginning. So David Miscavige, as a new follower of Alistair Crowleys blackmagic, uses them as maybe another one earlier or later will do so anyway. If one is dealing with fire and wants to be a OT-God, he should not expect not to become burned.

  237. I don’t think it’s necessary to warn ex Sci’s about clinging on to a new guru. I know that sounds counter intuitive. However, in my personal experience Sci’s aren’t weak minded individuals. For better and or worse something very unique to Scientology hooked us. I haven’t seen it before Sci. or after. Like a wild animal that escapes a trap, I think we are all a little wiser.

    Love this site. Thank you.

  238. You are right, we are a bit wiser now.
    Hope so!
    Despite of all this shit, i still wonder, why some Ex Sci’s still believe in Hubbard.

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