Scientology and Intuition



reference: Scientology and Presentiment

Several commenters speculated as to my purposes for posting Scientology and Presentiment.   My purpose was simple: I wanted to hear what other people thought about it.  As far as implications are concerned – that is the question I asked folks to weigh in on – my view before I posted was largely reinforced by considering the hundreds of comments.

From my perspective, the most important implication is that it is more evidence that Scientologists are trained into constructs – to the point of confusing the map for the territory.  Their attention is focused with a great deal of intention and discipline on mental trauma.  Conscious, two-valued logic based, and three-dimensional time-space construct based perception is finely disciplined. This results in increased focus and force of intention.  The unthinking, yes/no binary device called the e-meter facilitates this training. In exercising such scientologists are led toward attainment to pre-defined abilities and states of consciousness – known as end phenomena in Scientology auditing.  They are promoted and preached as static, permanent states (again using two-valued logic, materialistic terms).   I have seen evidence of people becoming better at communication, problem solving, personal responsibility, handling of upsets, and moving out of fixed conditions through application of these constructs.  Sometimes they even achieve alleviation of psychosomatic disabilities along the road.

Then, rather consistently, I see them forfeiting their intellectual honesty and curiosity in vain defense of what got them a boost in the aforementioned abilities.  In the course of that defense I have witnessed those people become decreasingly effective at communication, problem solving, personal responsibility, handling of upsets and dealing with fixed conditions.

One faculty that is critical to spiritual growth is neglected, and then disabled, along the scientology route.  In my view it is at the heart of the decline and reversal noted above.  That is intuition.  When I use the term intuition I use it in its broadest possible sense.  That includes what the world at large considers extra sensory perception (including presentiment) and cognition and what Scientologists have referred to as ‘OT abilities.’

It has been said that the sixth sense could be considered conscience and the seventh sense intuition.  I think that paradigm makes a lot of sense and have found it workable in practice.  If one abides and nurtures a healthy conscience, attention and awareness is cumulatively freed to perceive and explore greater horizons.  That includes those horizons that are not accessible to the traditional five senses; but are visible through intuition. In Scientology, once the aforementioned, dictated abilities are attained (and even during the quest), one is required to forfeit his conscience.  I covered how that occurs in the books What Is Wrong With Scientology? and Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior.  I cover it in greater detail in A Course on Graduating From Scientology, and suggest means for not only recovering conscience but also rising to the level of intuition.

Initially, intuitive powers are largely ignored in Scientology.  As much as Hubbard at times preached the value of pursuing positive gain rather than negative gain (e.g. mid-fifties Ability Congress, Freedom Congress, etc) the scientology bridge ultimately focused on virtually nothing but attempting to remove the negative.  Hubbard went so far to definitively announcing a ‘law’ back then that if one focused on disability he would ultimately get more disability and if he focused on ability he would get more ability, and then constructed the entire bridge in defiance of that law. In scientology one’s attention  is focused on removing disabilities. One begins his auditing with lengthy sessions defining Dianetics and Scientology constructs.  He learns early on that nothing proceeds unless the simple ohm meter (the emeter) with its mechanical yes/no answers green lights it.   Attention is focused so as to detect the negative, that which is said to be foreign to the being’s natural state. So focused, the meter ultimately proves there is no end to the negative gain quest (reacting as it does to thought’s or intention’s interaction with the physical body).   A number of provisions are enforced to make the constructs real.  For example, along the way,  if one does not think in pictures, he is treated as a special aberrant case in need of remedies that will get him to think by creating pictures.  Then hundreds of hours can be spent auditing out the now-considered malady of thinking in mental image pictures.  Or, if a person does not originate incidents from past lives, again he is treated as a special case and subjected to special remedies.  Those include running incidents from movies the person may have seen.  It even encourages the running of imagination as reality until such time that the person believes that imagination is in fact reality.

Exacerbating matters is scientology’s considerable thought policing that trains a person to rein in intuition.  For example, the scientologist is trained to understand that any negative or ‘unkind’ thought he or she might entertain about L. Ron Hubbard or his appointed scientology ecclesiastics is the result of undisclosed crimes the thinker has committed or deeply seated evil intentions he or she harbors.   That results in lengthy, traumatic, and very expensive interrogations on the e-meter to remedy the ‘cause’ of such intuition.

By elevating the emeter above judgment and understanding, the two-value logic construct is cemented in place.  The all-knowing meter, being a two-valued, binary (charged or uncharged?) device guarantees that.

L. Ron Hubbard once preached against developing meter dependency.  I think he understood when he did so that the last thing one wanted to do in search of greater spiritual ability was to synchronize one’s psyche against a crude electronic instrument.  But, like with so much in Scientology, he also preached the precise opposite.  For example, in 1978 – his self-proclaimed year of greatest technical breakthroughs – he ordered hundreds of long-time, dedicated Sea Org staff to hard labor concentration camps when the meter determined, in most cases against obvious available evidence, they were anti-social personalities unknowingly out to sabotage Ron Hubbard.  In the early eighties he instituted a rundown – and demanded its application to all senior scientology ecclesiastics – to conform not only intuitive perception, but perception seen with the naked eye or heard with the ear (see, TheTruth’ Rundown).  Again, we run into that super-charged word as the only one that can accurately describe the result of yet another scientology dichotomy, cognitive dissonance.

Some of the faculty of intuition can be brought out in the solo auditing process.  But, for the most part it is lost by losing reality for the construct while engaging in continuous, active thought stopping to conform with scientology’s thought policing.   Should the practitioner even consider the construct as construct, intense thought patrolling (as summarized above) is employed to correct him.  What is never permitted to be recognized (which an unmolested or nurtured intuition would easily perceive) is that it is the process of exercising intention across distance – and communicating telepathically – that hones intuitive powers.  It is not that which one focuses on, extends intention toward, and communicates with that does the trick.  When the construct is implanted as reality – and  it is with more force than any Christian or Muslim sect – the scientologist becomes to greater or lesser degree forever the effect of that construct.  Again, the meter  consistently proves the construct as reality.  As a result the upper OT levels can become the route to slavish compliance to the perceptions and the guiding laws of the physical universe.  More on this in a Course on Graduating from scientology, and possibly later posts.

There are a lot of benefits to be had from increasing focus and power of intention as I have acknowledged in this essay.  The question I pose is, at the end of the day is the effort worth the cost in scientology?   For many, they consider that it is.  Provided those who fit into that category respect the rights of others not similarly inclined they have nothing to fear from me.  I have spent my entire adult life working to guarantee their right to continue along that path.  But, now my attention and intention is directed toward working with those who intuit that there are in fact broader horizons than Scientology permits exploration of.

477 responses to “Scientology and Intuition

  1. basketballjane

    Well said my friend.
    This is a tricky one. Because any time you try to show a path that isn’t Scientology (or for that matter not ANY organized religion) as a route to anywhere other than that religions perceived Hell, you are automatically a heretic, lunatic, hellbent on the singular destruction of said religion/deity/leader.
    I have been following your blog since its inception. Your journey has been well documented herein. If someone who has newly stepped away from the church just read today’s or even the last 6 months of blog posts they would be quite alarmed and put off.
    I could see, very easily, why there would be mountains of backlash. So to the curious Scientologist who is still in the Church but wondering what they should do, and to the person who has just walked out or been kicked out. Rewind to the beginning.
    Yes it is a lot of reading. There is a tremendously great amount of data here. It will help you along your journey.
    You may or may not come to the same conclusion as Marty and many others like myself have. And that is perfectly alright. No one is going to force you to do or think anything.
    This is the one place that you actually have the right to feel or think anything you please. There are NO stupid questions. So take the journey. Read from the beginning, do research, read EVERY book, blog, news story and anecdote out there that you can. There are too many to list.
    But you will have a better chance of reaching an understanding about yourself and Scientology as a whole if you start at the beginning and not towards the middle as we are now.

  2. Tom Gallagher

    Marty, Allow me to ripost my last comment:

    Perhaps the route to ‘total spiritual freedom’ doesn’t include LRH, himself…..

    Where does that leave the literal adherents? Ergo, aren’t they in a total trap? A spiritual one at that?

    Does a machine determine my freedom?

    Or Scientologically speaking, my paid for status……

    To answer your question, “…at the end of the day is the effort worth the cost in scientology?”

    My unequivocal answer is NO! Hubbards constructs cost me a long life-time of making other people wrong because they wouldn’t agree with the cult constructs!

  3. Dear Marty, I so much agree with you in your above observations. They also fit very well to my own and here is an article I wrote about it some years ago. Have funb reading…! Love Per Denmark

    *Thoughts, feelings and balance…*

    *By Per Schiøttz*

    *My friend Torben and I questioned ourselves why there are so many different religions, philosophies, psychotherapies etc etc and wanted to see if we could find a common denominator. We looked and looked and finally found it in one of the oldest religions on this planet* *Taoism, where you find the dual principle of existence.*

    *It says that if you think (create) good, then at the same* *time you have created the idea ‘bad’. Love and hate, in* *and out, up and down, masculine and feminine ideas, Yin and Yang, LIGHTNESS and DARKNESS.* *This principle you can find everywhere in all these areas,* *example could be Devil and God from well known* *religions. *

    *The masculine principle is organization, planning, think etc,* *whereas the feminine principle is creation, intuition, feelings etc.* *When they meet and work together you have balance. When they, in a stressed* *(traumatic, engram etc) moment become polarized and* *dramatized, you do not have balance (you are not in balance). *

    *In our western world the masculine organization, production,* *planning, think is valued. Feelings are ‘bad’ unwanted and not to be counted on. In a polarized situation the masculine* *side will keep the feminine in check by a ser fac, and until* *this is handled the integrity part in question will not be* *in balance. Instead of a balanced self-confidence you will* *dramatize over- (haughty) or lower (weak) confidence.*

    *We wrote a book about this and developed a way to find imbalanced integrity parts and getting them back in balance* *by handling the masculine and feminine ‘poles’ which are* *really personality traits. It’s a great experience when the two poles go back in balance and the integrity part goes back* *in balance. (When the ser fac and the ARC-x between them is handled).*

    *When you one day have handled all integrity parts YOU will* *be a person in balance. It can be done with an auditor and solo too.* *It becomes second nature to your life, it fills your life with life.*

    *I have found that Think-only processes tend to imbalance people,* *which in some cases means that the more Scientology-think-processes the client get’s the more he goes out of balance.*

    *Feelings get denied, and the feelings are really what tell you* *what is good for you. If you listen to them and follow their* *advice, they will never get into a squeeze and make you hurt.*

    *I have even seen people compete in who is best at denying* *his/her feelings.. aughhh…*

    *X-scientologists are experts in denying their feelings (HE&R)* *and some of them are the hardest cases to work with when it comes to* *listen to feelings. Some have totally denied them and* *they (their feelings) suffer and suffocates and get judged* *as unwanted and bad.*

    *In Danish illness is “syg” and judgement is “dom”, and an* *illness is called “syg-dom”.. there you are.. !!*

    *We have lot’s of fun with this, and the handling of the individual parts is LRH-basics like 2 Way Comm, Ser Fac and * *rudiments. (Between the poles and you).* *You are welcome to discuss and show this to anyone, and you* *will get a first hand to peoples reality and openness to their* *own feelings. *

    *We even developed drills on how to regain contact to your feelings.*

    *Great fun to work with whole (balanced) people. *

    *I love it.*

  4. I like this post. It must be my favourite. I have made many of these thoughts too. And wondered to myself the same question in the end.

    Because I liked the 50s I have studied mostly 50s. In the PDC LRH was negative about running pictures. He said ‘don’t do it’ over and over. He considered it inferior to creative processing at that time. Also the PDC creative processing was very free and required a great deal of creativity and even intuition (really, that’s mentioned by Ron) on behalf of the auditor. My guess is that not all people could run that –not all auditors and not all audited people. So, he made it much more rote and standard. Now, one can audit by reading a sheet of paper to the PC. Back then he had said that if you need a rote technique it means you haven’t grasped the theory well enough hehe. I personaly have had arguement with SCNist for being more ‘spiritual’ –but many and high status SCNists. And I have seen techie experts on OT levels laughing at OT stuff and the people who talk about them. Maybe LRH adapted SCN to the average person’s reality –maybe he put more gradient in, but it seems the gradient stayed low, around the ‘theta + body’ level. By his texts and lectures, I know he knew better.

    About the hard measures taken in SCN: I don’t doubt that LRH could get hard. I believe the difference between strict and ‘mad’ is much about whom and when you are hard on and for how long and how –many variables. If somebody assaulted me on the street I could get hard (better not get assaulted at all, or deal with it without hardship, of course). If you get hard to people like they do in the army, or some schools in older times, then it’s different –it’s oppression/suppression. I wasn’t present when LRH was around, so I cannot tell. I consider possible that some would want to present LRH as an oppressive/suppressive person to justify their own permanent oppression/suppression, because in SCN it’s all done in the name of LRH.

    I like ‘where’ you’re heading to, with spirituality. I’m going there too.

    I still haven’t answered that final question to myself. I believe it also depends on many variables.


  5. I’ve always wondered and have not come up with an answer of that “List 1” era in 1978 where many, including yours truly, were in the RPF supposedly based on an incorrect definition of an R/S. At the time, my stats were up, was doing well on post and had just gotten promoted.

    Thank you Marty – it indicates. The meter and those who operated it and verified it sent me. This added many other things like out-Int and etc to my attention as it was not the right thing at all which changed life.

  6. martyrathbun09

    Thanks a lot for that. We’ve intersected on a number of observations.

  7. Robert Almblad

    Marty, I very much appreciate that you spent your adult life working to guarantee that I and others could practice Scientology. For me, Scientology was worth the costs. Mental costs, financial costs, etc… I had pains and gains. But, it was worth it and I thank you for helping make it possible..

    But today I have learned enough to say with certainty that Scientology is not the “end game” I thought it was. I used to think that if Scientology was just practiced properly, it would be in fact the road to total freedom.

    Looking at LRH’s end of life and DM’s current abomination called Scientology, it is childishly silly to aspire to these things.

    I personally know there are broader horizons to explore and I have no intentions of restricting myself to discovery as I have done before in Scientology.

    I look forward to discovering new horizons.

  8. Robert Almblad

    If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?
    Albert Einstein

  9. Stunning Marty,
    I utterly loved reading your understandings.
    For me It’s all about a solo journey…
    about becoming more you….
    and as ron says’ you are all eight dynamics’
    that includes all of the people of the earth….
    nevertheless, its a solo journey of discovery and growing your understandings…… even learning to throw away some understandings
    if they become obsolite.
    I loved your logic and although it was slightly wobbling on the negative
    in the middle it was a superb logical sequence.
    excellant! gold star *

  10. “There are a lot of benefits to be had from increasing focus and power of intention as I have acknowledged in this essay. The question I pose is, at the end of the day is the effort worth the cost in scientology? ”

    In the independent/FZ most certainly,it is worth doing Scn.

    “is the effort worth the cost in scientology?” Not sure what you are trying to say here.

    In general I’ve been willing to do whatever is next bridgewise in Scn,
    and it has always worked out well. Whatever steps I decided to do
    that were not strictly bridge worked well also. Such as CBR’s idea
    that on OT2 one look’s at CC platens. I then had a new run on OT 3.

    And FPRD!

    However I have no interest in doing NOTs or Excal. I acknowledge those who get gains from such and post their successes.

    IMO looking at false/evil purposes, as in L’s and FPRD and expanded Dianetics they increase power focus and intention.

    Maybe difficult to run. However someone said “no gain with out pain”.
    Probably referring to gym work 🙂
    Well this is mental gym work 🙂

    This may even get you up to speed to understand what Marty’s
    getting at 🙂

    Maybe even me 🙂

  11. When I left the church it was the first time since becoming a member that I truly felt free, free like when I was a kid who had no worries.
    When I was in I was sick a lot, unhappy a lot, worried a lot, mean to others a lot, and most of all thought my shit didn’t stink…that some how I was a “special” person….the “one out of 18” etc.etc. etc. I have no words that describe my life over the past few years, but I considered it a Miracle that I finally woke up….I know that eventually this organization will close it’s doors forever because what it proposes is not who we really are.

  12. Tom Gallagher

    Thanks Robert for articulating my thoughts in a way I couldn’t.

    I, too, look forward to discovering new horizons.

  13. I have followed your story in your blog and through your wife’s lawsuit. As a clinical practitioner I think that this might be a time to turn off the blog, keep life simple and focus on the very concrete challenges of reestablishing a happy family life in the face of the enormous national exposure you have both faced. The time for turning to abstract and philosophical debate is not now. Now is the time for fishing, or whatever activities Monique enjoys.
    A well wisher.

  14. Marty, I agree. There are much broader horizons than exist in Scientology. I personally received a lot of value from Scientology, and I see that there is a lot to value in Scientology. That value, to me, should continue.

    I envision this core value of Scientology as having been grown over by a gelatinous cancer, that started small, and just kept growing. I personally believe that it started in earnest in the mid-60s with the invent of “Ethics” – especially lower conditions – and the Sea Org. I believe that the seed of this cancer was always within Ron, and that seed appealed to certain people who could exploit it and grow the cancer. Now, It is at the point where the tech as I know it to be no longer exists in the church. It just isn’t there. Your books chronicle this well.

    To me, it comes down to this – and I did see this a lot in Scientology: Once you audit something, it is audited. The case is no longer there. Once you have addressed the grades, and engrams, and the bank in general – and it is no longer there – well, it is no longer there.

    And yet, in the church over the last say 20 years, we have seen rescinded clear states, rescinded OT states, redoes of all levels of the bridge. Churning and churning of OT III stuff all they way up through OT VII. And we see people buying into it.

    I had a twin on the BC who spent about half his time on course, every night for years, with his nose in a dictionary. I, on the other hand, would listen to a tape and maybe look up one or two words per tape. Sometimes none. He said to me “How can you possibly do that? There has to be words you need to look up!”. By the time I was on Level E (second to last BC course), I had finished Method 1, had M9ed all of Level A, had been on courses for probably 11 years of my life, and star-rated pretty much every major HCOB and PL. I replied to him “Dude. There are only so many words in the English language. At some point, you know what they are.”

    That’s how it really is with Scientology. I found value in every step of the bridge I took. I honestly attested to each level (why false attest? why do that to yourself?), and I had a great time on course, and in life. But at some point, you’re done.

    The only thing really poisonous that I found in Scientology was the Sea Org and all the crap that went with it. And it’s that mentality that has killed Scientology, in my opinion. But, SO or no SO, at some point you’ve done what’s there. There is not reason not to continue growing.


  15. Sinar, there was a whole era in the ’50s when people went nuts on “PDH” – people read on “Have you ever been PDH’d by a cat?” and it read, and so, natch, it must be true. You’d have thought that Ron would have learned his lesson then. I personally only saw one Rock Slam in my life. And it was fleeting.

  16. hey everyone, … just AS-IS ‘yer self….
    den everyfink looks really pretty!
    dat’s funny Ron…. I like dat idea!
    anyone else like da really really pretty colours when you is hexterior ?… I fink dey look beautiful.

    ‘ya gotta larf really at it all…. cos it’s … funny!

    what’s funny ? well everyfink! :o)

  17. Although I did not do them, I understand that some of the original OT levels did include drilling to sharpen intuition. I’m guessing they were dropped because they did not produce predictable and repeatable results. What replaced intuition was the concept of ‘knowingness’, which we were encouraged to never invalidate, never mind drilling to improve it. Therefore this knowingness can include any hallucinatory cause that happens to cross our imagination, such as Karla Moxon saying that she and her husband saved the planet from an invader force while gazing up from their lawn chairs one summer evening.

  18. “…Scientologists are trained into constructs…”

    Most belief systems do have constructs – Christianity, Buddhism, etc. – and their adherents are also trained into them. However, I want to acknowledge that this blog played a significant part in my coming to understand some of the constructs of Scientology as being such. In fact, it was in the last blog post and thread about the experiments on presentiment that this really clicked for me. Thanks for that, Marty. And all the posters too.

  19. Oops, instead of “belief systems” I meant “systems of thought.” Freudian slip. 😀

  20. A lot of money has been made in the name of Scientology and maybe some are hoping to make a lot more. Scientology does have it’s whales but the majority of it’s wealth came from people like my family. The people who bought the books and donated. The same people that followed Dianeitics and took vitamins and supplements instead of doctors advice. Those same people that are disabled now or dead. To find that a “religion” is the cause for thousands of forced abortions and childhoods destroyed, is no religion. All about money not about a better way of life. When a child was born and was not perfect they were told to institutionalize but more than that they were told to block out the very existence of the child. After all the child brought it on it’s self. Yeah, believe what you what about LRH, but know he was not a good man or a kind man, he did a lot of harm and David Miscavige is cut from the same cloth.
    I think Eileen said it very well “Now is the time for fishing, or whatever activities Monique ejoys.”
    I also wish you well.

  21. Elizabeth Hamre

    Marty …I don’t believe that scientology stops any one… stopping at any place staying with any idea, remaining thinking believing that there is no more than what was given and not looking self and not exploring further beyond what is already known: that is personal choice.
    I believe that nothing but nothing can stop someone if that person truly wants something… scientology is a stepping stone… so is blame…

  22. Where the rubber meets the road for me is simply this:

    Would I recommend to someone with a problem, upset, question, in his/her life to try scientology?

    Not on your life or my life or their life.

    There are too many falsities woven into scientology. Yes, there are things of value. Yes, I gained from some of them.

    But the price I paid was extreme. And that I made it out alive and in tact is a credit to my family in part, to me in part and to my own intuition.

    What continuously astonishes me is how much I have yet to learn and grow and I’ve been on this quest since I was 22 or thereabouts.

    Scientology promises easy cookie cutter answers.

    Good luck with that.

    Life isn’t a cookie cutter.

    Answers are never black or white.

    Most of us are too fractured to be able to stop projecting our selves onto another and then transferring those projections into our relationships.

    Intuition is one of the biggest joys in life but scientology ensures that it is systematically squashed and eliminated.

    Without intuition. which is the juice that brings the *magic* of life …

    Why bother?

    Thanks again Marty. Brilliant post and a tremendously provocative and profound view.

  23. Great post Marty. I also think “the search for evil” tipped way to the far right in Scientology.

    I realized a long time ago a person’s “with holds” align to what tribe they are in or what building they are in. If you went over to the Catholic Church for a session, different kinds of with holds would read. Of course, you also would not get beat up for discussing them.

    If you think about the CDEI scale, people in the Catholic Church give up the with holds THEY CHOOSE. It is all the way up at the top of the CDEI scale. In Scientology, one is FORCED to give up the with holds that are important to OTHERS for THEIR security.

    Right there, “The group is all and the individual is nothing” mentality sets in.
    The first time in session I said something derogatory about a staff member, the auditor didn’t even acknowledge me. She just asked about my with holds. Complete denial of my view having any validity. However, the staff can speak derogatorily about the public at any time, and even assume they have the power to govern other’s ethics. In this wise, they discourage people from inventing their own lives, realities and ethics. People really should be encourage to create and live by their own code of ethics. Not someone else’s.

    When Crowley wrote: “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law”, he was saying that the highest form of ethics is creating your OWN reality. This is very true and full responsibility.

    The Church does not want you to be fully responsible, they want to be responsible for your thinking, because they do not trust you. What does that say about them?

    There is a heavy emphasis put on “evil” in the Church.
    There are many people who believe that evil is a more potent force in this universe, than good. And those people that think this will fear evil and work to dismantle it as a threat.

    All of the “good guys” and “guys wearing the white hats” that go out and “fight evil” as an occupation, really do not believe that good is a more potent force. If they did, they would not be concerned at all about evil.

    Sure, you have to bypass some people that are doing wrong. You have to stop a guy from waving a gun around. But how many people are doing anything like that? The “invisible evil” that lurks within becomes a preoccupation with the very paranoid. Those that think evil is a more potent force than creative intentions. The amount of security guards, sec checks, body guards, and barbed wire fence about each Church is very telling that the people inside think evil is the most potent force.

    The fact that at the highest levels of the Church, the highest members on the bridge have mandatory sec checks every six months, illustrates how little trust the Church has in it’s own product, and how very afraid they are of anyone who may be truly liberated to think for themselves.

    This idea that evil is the most potent force, is a major WHY, in many cultures. Most people do not have to confront any real evil, not with in themselves and not within others. If they did they would know evil is very easy to confront with a smack up side someone’s head. You don’t need to spend decades staring at a meter and searching for the enemy within, the invisible evil you just know is there waiting to come out and bite you.

    The entire foundation of the current Scientology culture is that there is evil and decay all around them.

    Witness, the Church has made more “S.P.’s” than “OT’s”.

    The Church creates S.P.’s. Whoever considered them self an “S.P.” before they got mixed up in it? Let’s face it, anyone has the ability to be suppressive. You suppress thieves from breaking into your car when you lock the door! People who use birth control are suppressing themselves! With the social taboo of “suppression” in the Church, people end up being the suppressed. And then end up with the “S.P. declares”. Just by deciding to leave or communicate one is declared an S.P.!

    This whole swing, and the fact that the Church has actually higher stats on declaring people suppressive than making clears is testimony that inside the Church they believe EVIL is the most potent force!

    You walk outside of the Org and you see people helping one another all over the place. EVERYWHERE. If good and create and survive and help were not the most potent forces, we would not have a civilization here!

    Scientology as a subject, and even as a potential tribe, is bogged down in the search for evil. To such an extent that when it sucks someone in, grinds them through the good vs evil program to PROVE to them that evil is the greatest force, they wind up on the sidewalk convinced that everything and everyone and Hubbard also are all EVIL.

    Anyone can be viewed as evil under certain conditions. Hell, if you take out a ham sandwich on a picnic with vegetarians you can be considered evil!

    Why do you get soldiers marching off to war unless you can convince them that everyone else in another country is EVIL? And this evil is a bigger force than their good so they must dismantle it! It is the same attitude the Church has an an entity. The basic premise is that all people are evil. New meters with higher power are built to help one find the EVIL.

    I will tell you I find to be evil. Convincing people that evil is the most potent force. Telling people they are EVIL if they do not purchase the next step. Suggesting people are EVIL if they do not show up for some event. Assuring people they are so evil and untrustworthy. they must be sec checked every six months. Convincing women they are evil if they will not get an abortion. Telling someone’s spouse or family member someone who has only treated them kindness is EVIL for reading the Internet or departing from the Church. Telling the customers they are evil if they do not buy the next step or donate to the beggars. Selling someone training and then telling them they are evil for going out and using their skills. Telling someone who has already been certified and met all the requirements of their check sheet, that they must retrain, because you have just decided something else. Telling someone who finished OT8 they have to go back onto OT7. Telling anyone who stuck it out on that long bridge, they are so fucked up they need objectives. Taking donations people made to Narconon to help kids off drugs, and dropping those donos into the C of S bank accounts and never using a dime of it to help some kid in need. Turning on workers and friends who have stood by you for years. Throwing people who have volunteered for years out on the street. Telling people they can not help another human being with auditing until they buy the latest meter. Charging 40,000 for a mission starter package before someone can disseminate in their own living room. Telling kids they can not call their parents. Working under age kids in a way they must forfeit their education. Throwing pregnant women out on the street. Perjury in courts.
    Domestic terrorism. Evil is telling people they can not sleep. Running can’t haves and must have’s, can’t be’s and must be’s, can’t do’s and must do’s, is evil. I could go on and on.

    The evil is not something invisible in some other that you have to guess about with the e meter. It is right there in everyday social intercourse and nobody needs an emeter to know what it is.

    I can understand why people still in the Church think that evil is the most potent force.

    The main thing for me in pulling out of the madness and cult like atmosphere, was that I was not willing to think that evil is the most potent force. The auditing itself in that place is focused primarily on evil.

    The only positive gain available through auditing now is in the Independent Movement with auditors who are not steeped in belief that evil is the most potent force in front of them.

    I heard one guy who left the Church say of another auditor he wanted to unmock, “People like to go to him because he does not pull their with holds.” For him, auditing others was all about the evil with in the other person! This isn’t even a fucking help flow! It’s an op term flow!

    The simple fact is, the Church has made more S.P.’s than OTs.

    Evil is NOT the most potent force in this universe. It really shouldn’t be of any concern. Most people will straighten right out if they are falling off the survival grid. Whatever evil lurks that needs to be restrained, is already contained in solitary confinement or sitting on death row in our prison systems. Society has already worked this out. Justice may be slow going but it is far saner and more humane than inside the Church of Scientology.

    You can’t go about trying to prove that your customers and volunteers and co workers are consumed with evil you must find out about it all with a little emeter! Waiting for the next witch hunt! Punishing people for thoughts, communication, ideas, or God forbid, reaching out to touch another disgusting degraded human!

    The common denominator of everyone that is still efforting to be a part of that group called the C of S, is that they all believe that evil is the most potent force.

    We are “evil” (according to them) to even be discussing it here! We are willing to be “evil”. Is this as bad as it gets?

    Show me one person in involved with the Church of Scientology that had to have their ruds flown because of me.

  24. threefeetback

    A second elephant seems to be entering the room: at what point in the deconstruction of Scientology does it become a moral/spiritual obligation for a former ‘auditor’ to expose (and to whom) the crimes and inhumanities committed by ‘preclears’.

  25. marildi, I’m of the mind that all belief systems are constructs and all systems of thought are belief systems. 🙂

  26. Elizabeth Hamre

    hey kid that is you Ian… not only colors but seeing inside peoples body: how the fetus is, watching the skeleton walking by :minus muscles skin, clothing seeing under the earth and seeing how the roots of the plants are, observing the inside of the tree trunks.. seeing holographic…. seeing the rain coming down yet not a drop falling yet [few minutes later it arrives] …my cat arrives ”her energy” 2-3 minutes before her body walks in, knowing when the car front of yours will change lanes before that actually happens. etc. etc etc… yes fun… knowing is fun …. and yes; what is funny… hehehe everything..

  27. Elizabeth Hamre

    threefeetback I was once stoned to death for adultery.. guess who has thrown the largest stone which killed the body off?

  28. Oracle;
    Thank you once again for posting one of your wild crazy rants.
    Once again you have eloquently detailed a specific principle that I (we) kinda knew, kinda had in the back of our minds somewhere but hadn’t completely put together.

    This is an important paper that should be copied and saved by all to be read again. I have no comments on it, what more is there to say.


  29. I have never even seen a rock slam.

  30. Elizabeth Hamre

    ”Scientology promises easy cookie cutter answers.” yes that is maybe so.. but the cutter has to be used. that cutter by it self is just a piece of useless junk. Scientologist bought the services, the tech but how many have continued had the guts, desire to have more do more than what the c/s has said they can???????
    I have I use that cutter for 40 years and yes I went beyond, I have attained not what the LRH said because that was his reality, his limitation and I do not believe in limitation.
    Lets not blame scientology… because that was and still is a tool the cookie cutter. but the real work starts when the OT levels ends.
    There is no magic wand which will eliminate ones unwanted realities but hard work long years worth and that takes willpower, to stay and wade through the self created crap ones calls the universe.
    But what on incredible adventure… what thrilling experiences and yes there is magic, beauty freedom. wondrous things to see and find long lost friend returning, and the universe becomes a beautiful place and that universes has no boundaries.

  31. Erzsebet.
    Is this one of those ‘who done it’ mystery questions?
    My guess, the guy you scre… uh, aldulterized with. I assume you were female at the time.

    I have been in similar scenarios. Not identical. Beaten up, killed by angry brothers, fathers, jealous husbands, etc. Being labeled a whore or beaten (as a female). I guess we just never learn. People will go through a lot of pain for a little pleasure. I think Ron mentioned that.

  32. Elizabeth Hamre

    Mark… what is important to know that is nothing is important know! Guess why you are auditing that crap because once upon the time you thought it was important and it was valuable… ughhh take a look where that gotten you! 🙂 my reality.. it is windy here today:)

  33. In the late 1970’s I got the Suppressed Person Rundown: This is the rundown that convinced me L Ron Hubbard was a friggin genius. When I recall the win on this rundown it is impossible for me to not have affinity for him.

    I had a pretty ugly divorce. My ex was out to get me. She had lied in court to get more money out of me, had lied to the police and the court after I gave her more money and had filed some papers which were slated to have me arrested for non payment of child support. Yikes. I had not spoken to her except through her lawyer for nearly a year.

    The case supervisor, Carol Coburn got wind of the situation and C/D’d me for the suppressed person rundown. During the third session I went through some of the strangest phenomenon. Black masses, nasty flows, really strange. Suddenly the whole thing went white, I came back into present time and I was just amazingly keyed out. Floating TA at exams.

    I got back downstairs to my office. Just really happy. Not five minutes later I got a call from my ex. She said, and I quote, “You know, Les, I’ve been thinking that I have been unfair and I just wanted you to know that I’m dropping all the charges and you can come see the girls any time you like.”

    We never had another problem in our communication after that. Not one.

    That “win” saved me well over 100 grand in hard, cold cash.

    When subjective reality and speculation match perfectly with objective reality and an undeniable occurrence witnessed by many, a certainty results. Far too many people saw this happen just as I’ve stated it for me to ever relegate it to possible fantasy.

    Just from that one win I would say it was worth it.

    On the flip side, of course is the fact that in many cases the subjective reality and speculation don’t match at all with objective reality. But for me the overall experience was positive in terms of using the processes to advance. The overall experience regarding the group and its constructs was negative. It was more an exercise in how not to do it.

    I think I still feel that way for myself because I never ceased to consider the basic tenets of the creed to be the senior data in my use of the subject. I think the creed of the church as written is a great guide. As the group abandoned that creed utterly and even assumed the exactly opposite position regarding handling life on planet earth, it changed my intuition of “something is wrong here,” to a certainty that group had become the suppresive it had been railing against.

    It was really an incredible learning experience. But I’ve pretty much learned all there is for me. Other subjects beacon me to move on up a little higher.

    I still use everything I learned from my Academy training to help people. I even run an academy to train people who are convinced that being an auditor is a worthwhile career. It’s a real joy to do this in an environment where the end goal is to have the person realize they don’t need my help any more. I’m also not constrained by the dogma of the group or unworkable arbitraries.

    Just a quick comment before I sign off. Regarding the construct of the reactive mind, engrams, and the beliefs one enters into when beginning that path, I think your speculations on it are correct. My own observations in this area as an auditor are definitely starting to convince me that any suggestion on the part of the auditor regarding what the pc should find are evaluation and can serve to implant a whole array of fantasy. When you audit people with absolutely no background in the subject or its books or its expectations you get different responses but still get the expected outcomes. This is all a work in progress for me.

  34. “Cause is motivated by the future.”

  35. Great article very happy to read it !

  36. It can indeed become a stepping stone. But when you are trapped in it, it is a prison — mentally, financially, spiritually, you name it.

  37. My first inclination is “never.” Current and former auditors can actually honor the “priest-penitent privilege” that the Church itself has regularly violated and mocked.

    My second inclination is to act in accordance with state and federal law and what it dictates, if anything, that applies to the auditor-PC relationship.

    My third inclination is that my second inclination should be limited by professional judgment as to whether anyone’s life or property are in danger or likely to become in danger.

    But given the ability of Scientology to be a profoundly adept generator of false memories (imagination masquerading as memory to fulfill the tech’s needs), how would you go about sorting out what was real from what was not? Stick with just present life? But even present life memories have been documented outside of Scientology to be very vulnerable to suggestion and falsification.

    Then there is another component of auditing to consider. A PC with normal barriers torn down will confess (get off withholds) and even write them up and even make public statements in liability formulas that offer no defense of the self. The person’s sense of self by that point is fully subordinate to the group. There is no speaking up for oneself, the context, the nuances, or anything like that. There is no defense attorney real or metaphorical. There is only the inner critic, risen to full domination, who speaks to condemn the self and lead the transgressor to genuflect to and beg forgiveness of the … group.

    In this context, it is likely that auditing records, wherever and however they may exist, are replete with lies, falsehoods, false or misbegotten attestations, and denigration and denial of the self (yes, of course, there are wins and cognitions mixed in there too, but how many reborn Napoleons have we seen, and how few Hitlers, and how many incidents dating to before the oldest possible age of the universe must we see before we recognize that most — maybe not all, but most — of what has been remembered is distorted and possibly false).

    Based on those reflections, I am back to my first inclination.

  38. “Attention is focused so as to detect the negative, that which is said to be foreign to the being’s natural state. So focused, the meter ultimately proves there is no end to the negative gain quest …”

    Perhaps this is why there seems to be no end to our little, slumbering passengers, the body thetans. We can mock up an infinite number of them.

    The actual scientific fact is that within and on the human body, only about 10% of the cells are human. The rest are bacteria, fungi, viruses and prions (if you count them as alive), parasites, and so on. 90% of what you see — or rather what you don’t see — when you snap a photo of your beloved is non-human passengers.

    Imagine if you became obsessed with ridding your physical space of each and every non-human chunk of live you could find. You would spend every dime and more. And you would never succeed. And you would probably die, because some of those critters help keep you alive.

    We do not have bodies so much as human biomes. If we do have “spiritual hitchhikers” as body thetans, why focus on them any more than you need to worry that right now there are pretty potent staph bacteria on your face and little eyelash mites crawling around your eyes. Heck, maybe some of those BTs do some good. But if you don’t have to lose sleep over the real critters pervading your space, why spend a fortune on the imaginary ones?

    (Frankly, it is probably good that OTs bodies don’t really become transparent. Picture an “invisible man or woman” walking around where all you see are some worms, mats and layers of bacteria, patches of fungus, and so on.)

    More generally, why spend a fortune of time and money on endless mocking up of supposed incidents that the mind can very vividly and convincingly create on demand? Doubt the power of the mind to do that? Just recall an earlier similar incident. (Cancel that.)

  39. Good post Marty. Thank you.

  40. A big YES

  41. I understand what you mean, Monte. I was just trying to avoid the connotations of the word “belief” that conjure up religious ideas accepted without any personal inspection. On the other hand, if a system of thought – or call it “belief” – is supported by the observable data, that would put it in the category of… “workable.” 🙂

    A belief system or system of thought may be like the finger pointing to the moon. It isn’t the moon (or “the territory”) but it has value if it’s pointing in the right direction and guides a person to eventually see the moon. Or even go there!

    “To the moon, Alice!” — Jackie Gleason (TV reruns 😉 )

  42. Still Awakening

    +100. Oracle you said it.

  43. Elizabeth Hamre

    Marty…..I believe when something is done, when one has the consideration, the belief that they are doing something for others that ”doingness act” is done first of all and foremost for self.
    What you have done can not be experienced by others, that is impassible to do, since we only can experience out own reality-creations.
    For others what you have done is secondary, and what they agree to is not what you have done but what they have done in your name and say ” look what you have done for me””” thank you!
    We can only experience our own reality and the rest is addition and in fact makes it a huge solid lie.
    you can slap my face, yes, but the sensation is my creation so is the sound what I will hear and what I see: how the hands move.
    I believe this is called taking responsibility for self.. and while one doing that blame do not enter into this picture.

  44. “The question I pose is, at the end of the day is the effort worth the cost in scientology? For many, they consider that it is.”

    Great post and thought provoking for me.

    First of all, I am now looking at the issue from the point of view of the blind man and the elephant. The depth of the emotion in the post is something I cannot share because I see the issue of the Sea Org experience as something unique which is not part of my past.

    My experience in Scientology spanned the 1973-1989 time period when the religion was not fully developed and when prices were lower. From 1973 until the mid 1980’s, I would say that only Dianetics was worth the cost.

    I never joined the Sea Org – despite intense pressure to do so – because I felt it was not worth the cost of my life. I viewed Hubbard as a partner in a business transaction. As long as he delivered something I considered valuable, the check was written. When I completed OT VIII in 1988 aboard the Freewinds, Hubbard and I parted ways.

    Now the question remains concerning whether OT VIII was worth the cost.
    The answer is still yes because it was my route out of scientology. It actually was an escape. The elephant for me was more of a Wildebeest.

    In addition, despite being worth the cost, I would never recommend scientology to anyone. It evolved into a serious cult after 1988.

    Much loving-kindness,
    George M. White

  45. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    This is life ! Isn’t it beautiful ?
    Lrh made jokes about the materialism in Psychiatry and Psychology and that they teach you that you’re a brain and will not be able to change,

    Then he invented a whole construct and explained everything about the mechanical laws of life and the universe. All those laws are mechanical and 100% true (=materialism) and explained to everybody that he is a poor soul trapped in a body, with all kinds of banks (reactive, r6, ot2, 3, nots case, OWs, implants, false purposes, mu’s, servicice facs, bpc’s ad ad nauseum…..)even ethics conditions are mechinal laws of life and you have to follow them or you ‘ll end in hell. So man is not free and has no free will per his laws and has first to as is everything and free everybody before he can call himself free.

    This philosophy is as materialistic as communism, has the same routines as communism but just other words for it.

    Man is born free and it’s up to each individual what he does with his freedoms.
    I’m happy doind selflisting and self auditing everyday and winning greatly with it or should I say ” I’m thinking for myself ” without hindering myself to think.

    There are still lots of unanswered questions and I hope that through this blog or through continuation of Self -reflecting I’ll finally find an answer to a main question I have. Our abilty to think as we do now, did we have it before we started in Scientology or did we learn it there ?

  46. It was this focus on evil that gave me a lot of headaches (major cognitive dissonance).

    Man is basically good? Ah yes, basically. Somewhere underneath. But now he is all evil and we need to shovel off the evil first to get to the good, and that’s going to take a looong time and a LOT of sacrifice and making more amends than you can possibly imagine.

    Yes, a lovely, lovely little control mechanism.

  47. What process might help a person to act on their intuition?

    I experience intuition often, but almost as often override it with “logical” thought. Easy example: I have two bus routes to my usual destination. I sense I should take the one I do not normally take, but cannot see a plausible reason why, so I take the bus I always take. Result: an accident has happened down its route and I am delayed by at least half an hour. I would have missed all that if I had acted on my intuition and taken the bus I do not normally take, even though there was no further evidence available as to just why I should do so.

    Learning to act on intuition is my current big puzzle.

    Also, where would you plot desire/interest/asking in the senses? A question arises in me, a desire to know that calls me, and then I begin searching and (often by seeming serendipity) find the answer in an apparently unrelated context, or because I looked at something out of mild curiosity (and actually sometimes the answer pops up after I have lost interest and am beginning to wonder just why I am reading a text or came to a certain place).

  48. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    Not on topic but food for thought:

    From Wikipedia about the father of modern education that is used in our schools today:

    “John Amos Comenius (28 March 1592 – 15 November 1670)[1] was a Czech[2][3][4][5] teacher, educator and writer. He served as the last bishop of Unity of the Brethren and became a religious refugee and one of the earliest champions of universal education, a concept eventually set forth in his book Didactica Magna. He is considered the father of modern education.[6][7] Comenius was the innovator who first introduced pictorial textbooks, written in native language instead of Latin, applied effective teaching based on the natural gradual growth from simple to more comprehensive concepts, supported lifelong learning and development of logical thinking by moving from dull memorization, presented and supported the idea of equal opportunity for impoverished children, opened doors to education for women, made instruction universal and practical.”

    In a book published around 1962 Will Durant summarized the principles developped by Comenuis as follow:
    – Clearing the words of the own language
    – teaching on gradients
    – working pratically with the objects or pictures of it.

    In 1963 LRH developped Study tech with those 3 principles he discovered on his own ?

  49. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    Very funny that the principles of study tech were discovered/developped by wogs and are still used and teached by the western civilization in their school system….many times I was surprised when I wanted to tell to wogs about the wonders of study tech and they had a blank stare at me and meant: “this is normal, any normal intelligent person will clear the words to understand a a text if there are words in it she doesn’t know if she can’t understand it by context…”

    have a good day !

  50. Oh. Would acting on intuition require acting on ones conscience? Which requires courage? How do I get me some courage? (earnest question)

  51. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    and here from the future when Gat15 comes out and you can do the student hat in 5 hours on course with speedreading:
    Try it out you can read as much a 1000 word in a minute !

  52. Good for you Marty.

    Once one exteriorizes from the Scientology time-track, one can leave so much mest (including 2-valued logic) behind.

    Once you leave the policies and organizational “think” behind, you also leave KSW and lots of enforced and destructive stupidity behind.
    Your spirituality can evolve and new doors will open. Your insight will evolve and you can find links to grace everywhere you go.

    I am grateful that I didn’t miss the chance to get involved with Scientology. It was a very limmited-time-offer on the time-track.

    But it’s time to move on and time to leave the structures behind. It was, after all, an excersise in Reach and Withdraw.

    Life can’t be kept in a book. It’s too large.
    It won’t fit into a construct. It’s too fluid.

    In the end of the day, life is there so we can experience life. And processes are only as good as they help us in this endeavour.
    Experience, communication, spiritual inclusiveness.

  53. Oracle…

    Spot on.

    One of my first seeds was planted when I came face to face with a frothing Danny Dunnigan way back when…

    The seed was thus;

    Why, if we are the only true hope for mankind and those of us at Int being the cream of that crop, are we subjected to rabid security guards who clearly think we are on some sort of mission to destroy their world?

    It took another ten years to answer that.

    Evil is in the DNA of Scientology. The closer to the top the more evil there is.

  54. 😊

    Always enjoy reading your comments Windy…x

  55. Jane…

    With few exceptions I have to tell you that your posts have been some of the most refreshing I have read on this and any other Internet forum engaging in the discussion of scientological subjects.

    I trust your life ahead will bear fruits beyond your expectations of today.

    And if I may… I think you alluded to a truth I’ve yet seen discussed… That being; real eternity and our true future lays in the hands of our children. Not donations, not statuses and not time spent on an e-meter.

    Whatever any of us has to do to become better parents and help the next generation flourish is all that really counts.

    In my opinion.

  56. Forgive me… Perhaps I shouldn’t comment on this… It is not my place… Having said that can I make this one observation?

    There is little I wouldn’t do for Marty or Mosey… I have long thought that their time would best be served engaging in activities other than this blog… But… And it’s a big but… Who am I to voice that opinion?

    And I have seen enough positive results of Marty and Mosey following their own un-influenced paths to never feel the need to tell anyone what I think they should or should not do.

    In short I trust them… Wholeheartedly.

    But I’m right there with you in wishing them well. I just happen to know they’ll be fine… Whatever their decisions in this life.

  57. A great post, Marty. Again, I have to agree with you. Scientology does stop one, someone has said it doesn’t. It does. We are not allowed to think any other way than the Scientology way, or do anything unless it is the Scientology way. We are not allowed to have the friends and family we like who don’t agree with the church or Scientology. If I dare to read another type of spiritual book or a book on how to boost my business that is not written by L Ron Hubbard, I am checked and told this is not right. (This HAS happened to me.). Etc, etc.

    I’m still sorting out how to think outside of the “Hubbard bubble of reality” – quote from the book, Messiah or Madman. Sometimes I deliberately break a rule in defiance and have a giggle about it. This sounds pathetic, I know. It’s like the elephant who’s peg is removed but he still can’t walk away because he’s been so conditioned.

    I’m going to say this and know it will be unpopular. LRH came across many truths which he shared with us only to go against them later. I’ve learnt the reason for that and it was his agenda to make money out of Scientology. He had to enslave or the religion would not continue to be this huge cash cow it became for him. He, and he alone, has wrecked this religion. For those that disagree, you need to get busy and find out more truths about him and his reason for growing a religion and who he really was.

    I’m looking at other things spiritual but have difficulty grasping the message therein. It may just be the right message for me and perhaps the right one is still to come along.

    I’m very interested in your new route of growth, the new direction you’re taking. Thanks for offering it.

  58. Marty wrote:

    A number of provisions are enforced to make the constructs real. For example, along the way, if one does not think in pictures, he is treated as a special aberrant case in need of remedies that will get him to think by creating pictures. Then hundreds of hours can be spent auditing out the now-considered malady of thinking in mental image pictures. Or, if a person does not originate incidents from past lives, again he is treated as a special case and subjected to special remedies. Those include running incidents from movies the person may have seen. It even encourages the running of imagination as reality until such time that the person believes that imagination is in fact reality.

    THIS! ^^^^^

    You are pointing out the underpinnings of the Scientology programming: the subtle yet very coercive indoctrination we all underwent in order to become Scientologists and to gain the promises of “Clear” and “OT” that we’d heard about in Hubbard’s books and lectures.

    Even though a Scientologist can recognize that no Clears or OTs have been produced in Scientology as Hubbard defined them, they can still cling to the Scn programming because they have not viewed these underpinnings – the ways that they agreed to change themselves in order to become Scientologists.

    It was done in an auditing room, and it was done in order to have the wins and gains that Hubbard promised us. For most, the auditing environment was the first environment you had experienced where no one would judge you, and you could work out your own problems to your own satisfaction. The early auditing environment was one of the best environments we had ever experienced and we were willing to give up anything to keep it going.

    The secret to “running out Scientology” is to look at the way your life was as you were first getting involved – what problems you had that scientology promised to solve, what questions you first asked in your beginning contacts with scientology and how those first questions were answered, and what demands you conformed to in your own way in order to get what scientology promised you.

    For many people those problems are in the dim past. Not necessarily because Scientology solved them, but because the person himself used Scientology as his excuse to solve them, and made scientology responsible for that solution rather than himself.

    These are the underpinnings of the Scientology Personality. And if you view them carefully, setting aside all bias and rumor, you can see what you yourself did to “become someone new” when you first got involved in Scientology.

    Joining a new religion is often how a person seizes the chance to escape himself and to become someone new. It can be very therapeutic to do that. But there is no reason that this process should remain unconscious.

    If what you come to view is true, it will stand.

    If it is false, it will fall.

    Let the truth stand.

    And let the false fall.

    The best definition I have ever heard for a “self” is: “a strategy for success”. Some people cling to selves long after they have stopped succeeding. And even if your scientology self is still helping you to succeed, that is still no reason to hold on to it unconsciously.

    Way to go, Marty.

    Awesome frikkin post.


  59. Everything is a construct. But some constructs are accurate representations of reality.

    Some constructs liberate from the construct itself.

    Some constructs trap.

    It all depends on who is creating the construct and modeling of reality: their understanding and motive.

    Some constructs will deconstruct and some build up on foundations of untruth or partial truths or purposeful lies.

    Paths to liberation neutralize and as-is the path we travels on.

    Paths to mental slavery enforce adherence and belief in doctrine and dogma.

    Paths to mental slavery worship the cult of personality.

    Ron was the most OT, most wise, only free being, with the bestest most groovy, workable road etc etc.

    A liberating construct brings joy and freedom based on onself.

  60. Idle Morgue

    Eileen – I don’t know how any Ex- Scientologist, staff member or Sea Org member who is out of the cult and knows what goes on behind the curtain can go off and enjoy life while people trapped in the cult are getting hurt, abused, bankrupted and driven to madness!

    How do you do that? I sincerely want to know?

    I wish I could forget about this experience of Scientology but I cannot. I can’t erase what has happened and what I know and I feel some sense of responsibility to help in some way get people out.

    This exposure Marty is doing is necessary for people decompressing from the horrific experiences they had in Scientology. Thank you Marty – everything you have done has helped! If it were not for you, Mike Rinder, Karen and others who were at the top of the pyramid in Scientology – this exposure would take A LOT LONGER! How many more lives would be ruined if Debbie Cook had not released her e-mail. Mine, for one! So thank you – all of you who help expose the truth. Please, please, please – continue!

    Marty – please continue! You are helping more than you know!

  61. hiya! thanks for nice reply…. sometimes I think people get stuck in the forest or knee deep in the Tech…. when actually just being friendly would help, and OT stuff like exterior, well…. its about freedom and joy and beauty. I guess its good to go to the source that helps you in that direction easily. For some that would be in the Cos, others its the independants, others it just Solo, others its budism and for others its science and others its simply ‘going to the beach and throwing a frizby for your kids’. We are all on our own paths…. and yes… Theta perception of zooming in and out of molecules and looking inside things from walls to electrons is being experienced by more and more people as this planet is waking up…. best wishes and happy sparkling… Ian

  62. For example:

    Love thy neighbor is a spiritual construct that leads to happiness, win win

    Attack thy neighbor is a military construct that leads to war, win lose.

    The spiritual constuct of the laws of decency like, honesty, service to others, self discipline, overcoming negative ego etc. lead to a clear conscience and thus leads to a mindset that allows for meditation.

    It is near impossible to have a decent meditation with a guilty conscience. Actually it is impossible.

    That is why all valid paths have the basics:

    The ten commandments (of which Ron in his hate of Christianity broke many times)

    For the meditator it is the 8 Limbs of Yoga etc.

    Reflecting the laws inherent in the fabric of the cosmos itself, sages have layed out the blueprints of right living that keep the conscience clear and open.

    When men who claim higher knowledge lie, cheat, attack etc. and then teach you to do the same, those teachers will clog up your conscience and thus your channels of intuitive knowing.

    Actually, intuition and conscience are the same thing.

    That is why it is essential to learn the laws of decency.

    Our capacity to know accurately is at stake.

  63. Grasshopper –

    I can tell you that the only thing auditing did for me is to “thought stop” so I would not feel undesirable emotions.

    Scientology technology makes “suggestions” that emotions under 2.0 are somehow bad and wrong! The way the mind control works is the tech gives you the idea that you only have to agree with what you agree with. It is hypnotic suggestion and when repeated over and over – it works!

    Most Scientologist’s walk around faking that they are above 2.0.

    Some may be happy for a moment but the covert invalidation and nullification are working hard behind the scenes to make sure everyone has a “case” scientology can $ell to help. It is quite profitable and keeps the slaves on their toes!

    People in the cult don’t show their “case” because of the tech – “no case on post, no entheta, handle it in auditing”. It is all designed to introvert one into thinking it is all them – everything bad is their fault and everything good is because the tech works.

    The tech in Scientology is mind control tactics and the whole thing needs to be destroyed! It makes robots and un-empathetic human beings! It is a case of “others fleecing, lying, destroying others” in the name of ridding the planet of insanity and criminality. All carefully hidden from view!

    When I left the cult – all of the “emotions” I had suppressed, thanks to Scientology auditing, were waiting for me. The more I read about what Scientology is and what it is not – the more those emotions rose from the grave. I guess the mind control did not work – it only suppressed normal human emotions and reactions!

    To engage my “critical thinking” again – I did my own research and am convinced beyond any reason or doubt that LRH was a con man, a criminal and a disgusting human being to hide behind his “religious cloak”. Scientology is a scam. The evidence is too great to deny.

    Thank you Marty for allowing free speech!

  64. I worked in Saint hill until ’83 in the Sea Org, overall I found the experience fascinating…. including all the nonsence about stats and over work and hitler like bosses…. but overall It was a real feast of learning…. and still is… 30 years later…. declared suppresive… how funny…. and utterly bonkers! hahaha… the Cos behaves like a spoilt child.
    I do find myself now…. OTV111 and although the last few levels were completly solo away from the Cos and even independants…. all my original goals I had for Scientology…’for myself’… I would happily say I have.. exterior at will, answered the fundamental riddles of existance and sufficient ‘past life’ recall to have easily proved it for myself…
    yeah…. Im very please I have encountered Scientology and the writings of Ron Hubbard….. just completed SP8 ….. daft in’it!
    really shocked by the stories that others tell me its been like in America and I guess at Saint Hill since the 70’s….. consider myself as a ‘real Scientologist’….. ‘at the least’ and a delightful squirel and still very much bright eyed and bushy tailed.
    :o) Ian
    gotta larf!

  65. Thanks Marty for really digging into the spiritual part of
    man and how it relates to mental and physical aspects
    of Scientology and life. How the intuition dovetails or not with
    postulates and/or intention can be a very interesting
    study. Of course delving into this cannot really be done
    scientifically but the results can be observed.
    Anyway, yes, this is your absolute best post yet. And I have
    had some nice realizations on what happened on the
    Scio time track from your write up.

  66. Elizabeth — yes — scientology is a tool so is a car to get you someplace but if it promises a fairly safe trip and it blows up every time it is rear ended (the Pinto in the 70’s) – it’s not a very good tool.

    Those of us who have GONE BEYOND scientology by our own persistence are fortunate. This has happened thanks to our own curiosity and desire to develop further as human beings. The exposure of the horrible abuses within this church by Marty, Mike, Karen, Tory, and others are helped tremendously speed up the process.

    Sadly, the are others that have been stuck inside a 1970’s Pinto which WILL eventually get rear ended and blow up.

    So far — I’ve not met ONE person who has successfully survived INSIDE scientology and unless and this is a HUGE unless — scientology is stripped way way way down to just a great communication cycle with someone who listens well (forget that e-meter crutch) — I’m going to bet that in another 50 years there will be nothing left that you could call scientology — as a body of knowledge.

    PARTS will have gotten into the world because they work well enough.

    But the entire PINTO — well — find me a 2014 Pinto — won’t happen


  67. basketballjane

    Thank you for that Cris. I am trying to be as honest and forthright as I can about my story. I am hoping that reading it will wake some people up, at the very least, and at best give someone else out there the courage to speak out and tell their story. To know that they are not alone.
    As far as kids go I couldn’t agree more. Whitney really did say it best, “I believe the Children are our future. Teach them well and let them lead the way. Show them all the beauty they possess inside.”
    My kids are my future for sure. But they are the future for everyone. Each generation takes on the burdens of the last and tries to make it better (hopefully) for themselves and the next to come.
    That is the main thing that I am working to instill in my kids. Taking responsibility, for REAL, for themselves, the community and the planet. And by the PLANET I mean actually the Earth. Nature. The Air, water and ground that we walk on. Because, frankly, if we don’t it really doesn’t matter how much money you have or how many confirms you get, if the Earth dies, then we are all screwed.

  68. I always wondered why the Church didn’t allow children or cherish them. The Catholic Church flourished in numbers ,encouraging procreation…
    The killing of intuition got me out the door more than the regging or any other materialistic projects.
    Thank you for this post which indeed was written in the comments of the previous one.
    And I agree with BBJ that the freshly out of the Church person should start reading this blog at least at the post on judgement and labels to get the full benefit of the evolution.

  69. Elizabeth Hamre

    Wizard… I am thrilled to read your posting.. I feel the same way since I am a squirrel too and happy with all my experiences. I have gained total recall, the IQ is so high it can not be measured the test 8 hours of it was done at the University of Washington.
    I have gained phenomenal knowledge of the Universe, as -is instantly, and can do what ever I want. View any object or subject and gain total insight: how it was created that means I see the original postulate.
    Here is a thing people and theses are many of the ”big time auditors” [[[not all]] who were on staff once upon the time and now talk and encourage that we all should explore different avenues but at the same time dont believe deviating from the tech and in their little black heart they believe that the gains we have gained do not exist… can not exist, impassible to have because we have twisted the tech and the tech do not work that way can not work that way… only the original use how it was intended will do the trick.
    These lovely narrow minded full of the tech persons have double standards, Because they dont believe it works yet if not used the as it was intended, now if we use it the ”’regular ” way than it works yet the want to explore different avenues because the tech do not work and therefore other methods will do the trick.
    I do hope you figure out for your self this confusion what these auditors believe in..

    In session I personally used LRH’s Tech but I was not C/S’sed yet I have erased the so called bank which are all the existing human considerations ..beliefs.. agreements.
    By doing so I have gained back the realities I have had as in the past, and that is not something to sneeze at.
    And yes, I have did this for self to self yet I have gained the knowledge how my reality –cognitions do affect the Universe… and on the long run I did not do all this for self, not at all because I have gained the understanding how the telepathic communication ones thoughts do spread across the Universe it self.
    By the way as-ising do not erase the Universe, as-ising having cognitions how that works is give different realities. And one definitely still has feeling sensations and most of all incredible knowledge.
    Best to you my friend…. I have been at ST Hill and loved it all. Elizabeth

  70. Well stated Marty, I could not have voiced it better myself!! For me I just know what I know and noone nor nothing could or would have changed that. There is so much more to know.

    there are many who have chosen to stay in “the box” and in “the box” they will remain!!!!

    for me I got bored with the negativity!

    Love to you all, great comments by all of you!! Cheers!!

  71. Elizabeth Hamre

    yes… it can be till one say.. lets move on I had enough… and one can put it down as a learning experience which was placed there by the self for the self for the experience on the Path of Enlightenment. No one can give you on experience that you create for your self. We all take out life what we put into it and no more.

  72. spyrosillusionist

    There used to be a system that honestly wanted to know truth. When it finally discovered it, it as-ised itself, and so it no longer is. End of story 😛

  73. martyrathbun09

    Thanks Carol.

  74. Elizabeth Hamre

    Hi there Sweet Pot… yes… but the future arrives instantly and that is when it is postulated into existence…so there is no future in the so called intangible universe. only ”NOW”
    The cat’s energy which is the cat it self appears instantly when the being intend that to happen [her name is Sanifar] so that indicates there is no distance either… but the body which is not the cat walks in later so that clearly shows that as in the universe there is only NOW and in the solid universe we have ”future” and that is the result of delayed action, the manifestation of heavier matter=cat’s body.
    As you can see I am having much fun..Best to you! E.

  75. Elizabeth Hamre

    Same to you… have fun.. and it is true what we create -experience IS and there is nothing more. all depends how we look at our own experiences. 🙂

  76. Elizabeth Hamre

    Oh come on… everything is still there… nothing really vanishes..”NO LONGER IS” is a consideration and when one puts it out that is not -ising the item.. How silly to believe we as-is things.. in sessions we just gain different realities.

  77. Hi Elizabeth,
    Best comment I’ve seen here in ages. Especially, “but the real work starts when the OT levels ends.”

  78. Elizabeth Hamre

    Windhorse… the trip is what the person makes of it. No one can give anyone anything.. we got what we put there, what we postulated.

  79. Hi Marty,
    My take on your write-up is that the lower bridge does and can
    produce workable gains for a person. Nothing like a well done Life Repair
    in my opinion. Then the OT levels come along and all those simple,
    workable gains go to hell and things get all muddy. There is too
    much body attention at those levels in my opinion. I have done through
    the current OT IV. OTIII was an enormous letdown for me as an auditor
    and PC. Fooling around with little buggers on my body didn’t seem to
    reach those lofty OT heights I had expected to achieve. Frankly I don’t care if
    one of them has an ARCX or not. I must say I did like the theory on R6EW,
    Clearing Course and OT II. But the auditing became boring. When I was younger working as a construction laborer I dug plenty of ditches.
    I have seen many pc’s reach incredible heights on Life Repair, Grades and NED. I remember giving a pc his first session. I flew an ARCX and he was
    so blown away I couldn’t audit him for almost a week….on an ARCX.
    Do the lower levels produce gain?… my opinion yes.
    OT levels for me….so so. Working with ones intuitive and presentiment abilities after Grade IV would make more sense to me.

  80. Elizabeth Hamre

    letting go… Evil what is, is only a consideration it is a thought that it exist.. evil or good deeds are just experiences.

  81. what a bizzare comment.
    Don’t know what to make of it.

  82. I mean Eileen’ s comment..

  83. Elizabeth Hamre

    Mark.. you have guessed right.. those who throw the larges stones are the guilty once… Louder one shouts, points toward some other person is the one who has the most to hide.
    Shouting, pointing is directing the attention away from self , yet it exposes that person..

  84. I trust their intuition.

  85. I’m discussing cognitive dissonance and suppression of conscience, not legal philosophy currently needed in a court room in South Africa.

  86. spyrosillusionist

    As-isness I also call when you have a choice to create something or not, as you know it is all your own creation.

  87. Elizabeth Hamre

    LDW… great post thanks for sharing your experience and pointing out that we are responsible for our self and we cant blame.
    I knew Carol very well, Betty Lundy has audited me. I am from the Mission and now live in Coquitlam.

  88. Every thing is a form of energy and energy transforms.

    My observation.

  89. Elizabeth Hamre

    Roger.. Hello.. good to see your post here… “I’m happy doind selflisting and self auditing everyday and winning greatly with it or should I say ” I’m thinking for myself ” without hindering myself to think.””
    well said… love it.. yes thinking for self … simply said it all. 🙂

  90. Elizabeth Hamre

    Letting go…. how one can get some Courage? Simply by getting into session and run all the thoughts. considerations and agreements you ever had why you believe, who made you believe when you have agreed to you did not have courage.. on 4 flows… than I would address all the thoughts beliefs I ever had what happened when I had courage, ETC ETC.. I would use everything the Rudiments have to offer go earlier similar .. Cognitions will pour in and the new reality that the courage is and was always there. 🙂 we all have it.

  91. When someone has a problem or upset, “Try scientology” would be just stupid advice. Like saying “Try Christianity” . If you know of tech that addresses their upset , and know that it works, then that’s what you can offer.

  92. Elizabeth Hamre

    Maurice hello to you too. we you and I use the cutter daily and we get the cookies too that is the reason we know that the OT levels are just the teaser offers the small taste a tinny morsel what is yet to come when one continues with the sessions!

  93. Some very thought-provoking stuff here, Marty. Thank you for this.

    Intuition is a subject that I find very fascinating and fruitful to explore and study. In the beginning of my training as a Somatic Psychotherapist, they told us students that we were engaged in a process of “training the intuition”. I remember thinking, how do you do that? Over the next four years, I learned. The process is indeed much as you describe.

    In reading your previous post about presentiment and the e-meter, it occurred to me that what you were saying is that deferring to the meter deprives one of the information that comes from intuition. There is a level of knowing, of experience, of being, that the meter misses — a stringent adherence to the device sacrifices that knowing. Very simple, and not a controversial idea to me at all. There are a lot of other examples of the very same process of putting on blinders. Human culture is littered with them. This is not a flaw unique to scientology or the meter, it is an inherent quality of anything that exists in reality as opposed to the abstract. No one system, teacher, philosophy, etc is complete and perfect. Anytime you encounter a person or system that purports to give you ALL the answers or have a solution for every problem and only wants your total allegiance and submission in return — RUN the other way. Or to put it another way: if you meet the Buddha in the road, kill him.

    There is no such thing in this world as that manifestation of perfect truth and wisdom. But that doesn’t stop people from hungering for it, and it doesn’t stop others from exploiting that hunger for power and profit. It is predation of the worst kind. It seems to me that the problem is that blind hunger for certainty. In particular, the kind that comes from an external source, and a shared group reverence to that source. That kind of certainty is very seductive, because it has weight and inertia — sometimes the weight of centuries of tradition and the inertia of millions of lives submitted to that tradition. Tying oneself to that can feel like an anchor, stabilizing and secure, but it comes at a steep cost. You can no longer fully occupy your own life. Life is full of uncertainty. The past is done and unreachable, and the future is beyond our control. All a person really has is this present moment, and then only within the limits of their own perception and understanding. We can only know what our minds are capable of discerning, from the things that our senses are capable of perceiving — that is far from the whole of reality, or absolute “truth”. This can be an uncomfortable thing to be confronted with.

    I think that everyone understands this, on some level. Everyone has had the sleepless night, or the sudden psychic blow of tragedy or loss, where one confronts the existential reality of being — a profound and ineluctable uncertainty and the dark shadow that can cast over the mind and the heart. Fear, and doubt, and loneliness. These are difficult things to simply be with — a lot of human behavior can be seen as motivated by a desire to escape those things. A drive to find — as Marty said — a STATIC state where one is free of fear and doubt and existential aloneness. Spiritual growth involves coming to understand that there is no such thing. There is the heart, and the mind, and the intersection of the senses with experience in the moment. There is no way to really be consistently certain that we are “objectively” right. On a societal level, we create contracts — laws and rules — as a framework for stable systems. We must use these to actively work around this inherent fact of existence — and it never works perfectly. More — when a society, institution, or group begins to assert that it’s rules are not a just contractual agreement designed to serve collective success and well-being under current circumstances, and instead asserts that they are natural laws, perfect and inherent in the nature of things — that creates confusion and will always lead to a breakdown in the end.

    Each of us only has ourselves to rely on, ultimately. Our own sense of what is right and wrong, our own sense of what is nourishing or toxic, our own sense of when to reach out and connect or to turn inward or look upward. In order to be fully alive – to have full access to our senses and our understanding and our full range of response to life – we must learn to tolerate the frightening and liberating uncertainty that life entails. Anything that offers you a sense of relief from that existential uncertainty is likely to cost you your autonomy. The two go hand in hand — autonomy over your own being means cutting free from any anchor other than yourself and the connections you choose to create. Freedom is a two-edged sword, to quote Jack Parsons. I would say that also applies to wisdom, or joy, or whatever it is your heart seeks in this life.

    Just my own thoughts here — sorry for such a long comment. I was very much inspired by your post, Marty. 🙂

  94. Hello there Miss Oracle.
    You will see RSs when you locate very early purposes, intentions which conflict with the most original purposes, considerations that you formed all by yourself. These slightly later purposes, often suggested to you and agreed and later ‘confirmed’, come during the first interactions with numbers of other individuals. Especially during the dimension conflicts (the first very large scale games involving large groups,) and the games universes, when lots and lots of interactions of every sort were being experienced.

    These direct opposing thoughts can produce an array of interesting meter reactions up until the conflicts become interesting and unimportant. Then it just becomes fun. That is when the meter becomes an expensive paperweight. Once you get beyond the era of the decisions and suggestions to use MEST and energy to handle life and interaction, the only tool you need is YOU.

  95. spyrosillusionist

    Oh I do recognise what you said about the ‘no longer’. It was more a matter of inappropriate words. What words to use for things that don’t exist? It can be a problem.

    The story I wrote to Marildi before is rather imaginary, but it could occur to somebody if he reached an awareness of truth regarding a system. If the system’s purpose is truth, then when truth is known, the system is no longer needed, and the system no longer seems true either.

  96. Elizabeth Hamre

    Hi… those little slumbering passengers more likely believe that you are little slumbering passenger… 🙂
    In my reality we share the universe we share not only beliefs but bodies too, don’t think that you are the only person who believes that body is yours.. that would be a great mistake.
    When some years back I have cognised on the item that the body did not only belonged to me.. and who knows haw many beings out there in the Universe who call them self Elizabeth Hamre, and who knows just how many beings have the same cognitions as I have at the same moment… than I realised that I might be believing that the cognition was mine but in fact some other being had it and I just duplicated it the same moment?
    Let me tell you: My universe or the Universe has become a very peaceful place me knowing that I don’t own a thing.. this body is not in my possessions.. the viruses and molds can be happy in their own way.. I don’t own, not being owned and we are nothing but a bunch of considerations and every one of these considerations are illusions. .
    Now those ideas- considerations lets me be free without being anything or anyone! that is total freedom!

  97. Elizabeth Hamre

    But that still don’t make it vanish! having different reality is just that.. but that reality will not erase the other viewpoint.. it cant.

  98. martyrathbun09

    Great contribution; thanks.

  99. Elizabeth Hamre

    Ron… yes everything is energy.. the considerations are the additions to that mass.. you are right… it is fun to create freely.. 🙂

  100. Elizabeth Hamre

    that is OK by me… but evil is what we believe is..

  101. Elizabeth Hamre

    S… right you are… but why want everything to vanish?

  102. A predictable suggestion.

  103. Elizabeth Hamre

    Oh what can I say…. I am very predictable… I don’t believe in blame…

  104. Elizabeth Hamre

    letting go.. I have posted a wrong answer bellow …
    I am a solo auditor and when I have a question I take that to session.. yes.. and I do find answers and not only answers but after erasing counter intentions I realize i have those abilities after all.

  105. Chocolate V wrote:

    “In order to be fully alive – to have full access to our senses and our understanding and our full range of response to life – we must learn to tolerate the frightening and liberating uncertainty that life entails. Anything that offers you a sense of relief from that existential uncertainty is likely to cost you your autonomy. “

    This was my basic mistake in getting involved in Scientology as deeply as I did: I felt that I needed more CERTAINTY in life to be more successful at it.

    No one ever told me that I actually needed to be more tolerant of DOUBT to become stronger and more secure in life.

    Oh well.

    Live and learn.

    Great post, CV, as always.



  106. Elizabeth Hamre

    letting go… PS; but if you don’t believe[ assumption here] in auditing you can try the nearest 7-11 they might have it on sale or at Walmart… I am just spitting hot air …:)

  107. This ^^ is absolutely incorrect.

    BUT one of the key components of LRH/Scientology …

    IF a woman for example tells her neighbors and the police that she is being beaten daily with pictures to prove it by her husband — she is shouting loudly, pointing towards a person …

    And you are going to tell me SHE is the one with the problem.

    Clearly physically abusing someone isn’t a positive thing.

    Clearly being abused financially isn’t a positive thing.

    Elizabeth — it’s all very well and good to say that evil and goodness are in the eye of the beholder until the other gouges out your eye and you can’t see.

    Then who is looking?

  108. Elizabeth Hamre

    Windhorse have you read LDW’s post? I have and I am in agreement that we cause our own experiences regardless what they are. In 94 a woman has driven head on into my lane the impact was huge she was going about 32 to 34 miles on a hour and so was I. she has caused the collision which destroyed everything what I even known and believed in. My life as what I have known till than was gone. Later, much later I have found that postulate which caused that huge accident… and I have found all my problems major ARCB’s were caused by me, like beaten to half death.. being the refugee, etc.. etc.. even finding scientology its TECH was postulated by me.. Yes.. the blame no matter what I have experienced point toward me as the cause.

  109. beautiful quote, and it seem einstein actually said it. however scientology and various new age magickal thinkers have served to ruin the reputation of intuition. sad.

  110. Mark, did you experience that the meter helped sharpen up your intuitive ability? I personally noticed having gotten a greater ability to “sense” a read and then by looking I’m able to see what’s there.

    My conclusion from the presentiment research was that the instant read of the meter IS the presentiment read/intuition, and a few moments later (an “average of 5 seconds”), after having LOOKED, is the time when one “sees” what’s there and was intuited – comparable to the subjects in the presentiment experiments seeing the actual picture they had intuited.

  111. The minor problem with suggesting auditing solo, aside from what has been discussed on this blog over the past year, is that there are prerequisites which people (self included) may lack: Pro TRs, Upper Indoc TRs, entire lower bridge, auditor training, C/S training if you’re going to go it totally alone.

    That would leave me with Walmart and Dutch courage. I hope for more suggestions, mayhap from other practices and something I can do or look into now, rather than in some indefinite future.

  112. Elizabeth Hamre

    Letting go.. you are right.. but please understand I only write from my experiences and I do have all those abilities which are needed to solo audit.. I do hope find the courage you think you need in order to continue on your path of self-discovery…alone that thought that you lack courage is really something… few have the courage to admit something like that!.

  113. Gerhard Waterkamp

    Hi Marty, this is a great essay. I experienced the lack of conscience, the condemnation of intuition (through constant evaluation) and I find your observations and thoughts are going right to the core of it. Thank you very much for taking the time and provide your inspirational thoughts.
    To answer you question, is it worth the costs? Yes, as it helped me to deal with some severe personal trauma, but it was a constant struggle with the organization to maintain myself, my conscience and what I knew by my own intuition.

    And looking back I think the only way I could have had and kept my wins in Scientology was by being luckily strong enough to be true to myself for the most part and act on what I saw when I saw it.

    It feels kind of a “what does not kill you, makes you stronger” scenario with me and Scientology. It taught me a lot and keeps teaching me lessons every day.

    But No, it is not worth the costs if you cannot avoid being completely absorbed into the subject as so many are.

  114. spyrosillusionist

    Eliza, I don’t want everything to vanish. My point is if I CAN have nothing, then I can put anything, for the ‘Ican’t’, ‘I shouldn’t’, ‘I must’ and whatever I might put there -seemingly- automatically (all repressions, compulsions and stupid ideas) can inhibit anything to be put (or not) freely there, or can make things stick there etc. The point is not to delete permanently something, but to have a choice over what you put there –just like a Clear can create reactive minds again, but think he has to.

  115. Elizabeth Hamre

    Letting go.. PS I been thinking what courage is. my take: it is a desire to have different and to work toward what that goal. just how much courage one has? that really demands how much one wants to achieve that desired reality. I do hope this will help.

  116. LDW, I always thought the Suppressed Person Rundown was the best evidence that not only does auditing work but that we do have these interconnections with one another.

    Scientology is like Buddhism (with respect to karma) both of which imply that the “mental realm” functions very much like the physical – i.e. both realms are a matter of interacting energies. Not to say that we live in a deterministic universe – not at all: When a person makes a postulate, or we could say collapses the wave function, the energy of it (a fine, high wavelength) adds to and makes that degree of difference in the overall dynamics of the whole universe and its interacting energies.

  117. The reason he did not leave the upper OT levels is because everyone has them naturally , they are not something that can be taught . I cognited on the upper OT levels because I have them naturally and so does everyone else in the world .
    The Co$ can never make money out of the upper bridge because everyone has it .
    People will cognite on them naturally and will just know exactly how to do them with their own intuition .

  118. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    Beautifully said Chocolate 🙂 Thanks

  119. Cooper Kessel

    Sounds like a relative of Dave’s trying out a different approach. Kind of like “shouldn’t you be out fishing rather than shining the light of truth on Davey and company?”

    Nothing to see here ….keep moving!

  120. martyrathbun09

    Good points Gerhard.

  121. Cooper Kessel


    “Most of us are too fractured to be able to stop projecting our selves onto another and then transferring those projections into our relationships.”

    Your comment hit a chord with me. This is a very clear statement on how folks trained in the cult have learned to function and it quickly becomes an automaticity. Breaking those automaticities is along the road out. Thanks.

  122. Monty

    I am of the mind that all “reality” is a construct.

    All “truth” is a construct.


  123. Elizabeth Hamre

    Sp;;; right. I got that.

  124. Elizabeth Hamre

    Sp… “just like a Clear can create reactive minds again, but think he has to.”” On that I don’t have reality at all.. please don’t explain it to me.. because LRH said that do not means that everything he said is true or fact. In my reality one do not create such.. I speak from experiences if something can be erased than it was not real in the first place..

  125. spyrosillusionist

    🙂 I so much agree with last paragraph. Good news. 🙂

  126. Hi Cris,
    Thank you for your thoughtful (and tactful) response. I do not know Mr. Rathbun or his wife and this is the first time I have posted to a blog. However, I saw Marty’s face on the Australian 60 minutes and also Monique’s face. They both seemed to be in acute pain (IMHO), and I have worked professionally with victims of bullying (I am one of those dreaded Psychs).
    It seems to me that victims of sciontology share some of those characteristics. One challenge faced is knowing how to walk away from the abusers and have the ultimate victory, which is a happy and fulfilling life. That does not mean giving up the battle, rather it means knowing when to take a break and come back stronger.
    Right now the lawsuit seems like more than enough for their spirits to bear.
    My opinion was intended in that spirit, and my wishes for their wellbeing are real.

  127. Sigh…

  128. This is an example of the suspicious hostility that keeps moderate voices silent. Your analysis of my intent lacked consideration of the content of my message. Please read cris’s response and think before you blog.

  129. Hi Idle Morgue,
    Your question and request for a sincere answer deserves a response, I’ll try to see if I can be both coherent and brief.
    It is important to confront and try to correct abuses. It is equally important to continually work toward peace and fulfillment in your personal life. Sort of like tightrope walking. A true conundrum, but if it is not constantly attempted than ultimately scientology wins by destroying another life even outside their cult.
    I have seen your postings on other sites, I know that you, like Marty Rathbun, are working to support the death spiral of the cult.

  130. spyrosillusionist

    I too don’t want you to agree with something just because LRH or others -me included- say so. I think you shouldn’t 🙂

    Mine was a typographical error. I meant that past Clear one can still create reactive minds, but he doesn’t think that he has to create any –he doesn’t make a reactive mind ‘automatically’.

  131. In terms of constructs the way Hubbard wrapped the subject up in story and myth was a big part of it. Would I have gotten involved if it wasn’t insisted that it was a workable road… all one had to do was follow it. I admit to being sucked in on hearing Ron’s Journal 67 where he talks about how others have tried but in the millions of years since the wall of fire on he had got to the bottom of it and came out alive. We were the pre-selected creme de la creme. No one else had this tech. Never mind that my success on the bridge (training and processing) was limited… I had a dream. It wasn’t mine but I thought it was. My biggest win was leaving when my sense of self began to return. I wouldn’t say I wasted my time. I got a lot out of it as I would have doing any thing. It was experience.

  132. martyrathbun09

    Your evaluation of my aims is incorrect.

  133. In that case, my apologies.

  134. Elizabeth Hamre

    Sp… I don’t agree to anything because by now I know what ever I believed in was in fact a lie a useless thought picked up who knows when and were totally out dated. when a new thought- reality blows into my universe that is examined in session. there is room only for cognitions.

  135. Letting go

    Wow! That is quite a question.

    I might be able to dream up a number of things, but whether you would find your courage or not, I would be guessing.

    But, because you asked, and made me think… I will offer this….

    One possible avenue of approach would be to treat it like a “why find.” (in Scientology terms.) You may already have asked many “why” type questions, but maybe get just a little bit formal on its ass….

    I would think that first you would have to get a good grasp on what you are looking for (what having “courage” would be like to you) when you say you need to “get some courage.”

    Then, using that concept of “What would “having courage” be like for me…” as a point of reference, ( the “ideal scene,) look for beingnesses or doingnesses, considerations, postulates, etc. that do not match that concept. (outpoints)

    Gather the data (write it down, consider it, or whatever) and sift through it for the thing that is most antipathetic to your concept of “having courage”. Look into that, until you figure that you have the key (“why”) for your “courage” problem. You will probably have some kind of… “That’s what it is” idea when you find it.

    But that is just the initial step. Next, you work out how you can fix or “handle” that, using things at your disposal now. (your resources) If your “handling” actually fixes, or helps fix the problem, then you are on the right track. If the “handling” keeps getting you closer to your goal, continue to use it, if not, go back to the first step and reevaluate the situation as it stands NOW, and then work through the remaining steps.

    This all doesn’t need to be a particularly formal procedure. (not at all, in fact.) It might only take seconds. You may want to work with it a bit. Sometimes finding the “why” is all that is needed to set into motion resolving the situation.

    This procedure is something that we all do many, many times in a day, usually without even realizing it. Actually auditing itself uses this same basic procedure (up to the point where you have found a “why” and had the cognition, and then they usually don’t even suggest that you do any “handle” step, on the somewhat careless assumption that it is all magically fixed. In some cases that will be true, but not all.)

    Anyway maybe that will be of some use. (in resolving anything actually)


  136. toodangerous

    Exactly, Ideal Morgue! My feelings as well. As long as there are innocent people, including my family and friends trapped in the lie factory that is scientology. I will be here. It’s not enough just to save my own skin.

  137. …”The question I pose is, at the end of the day is the effort worth the cost in scientology? ” …

    That is a question that has so many levels to it that it is tough for me to answer in a word or two. But I will attempt to keep it brief.

    Cost in dollars? (I will include time here also) Well, to some degree, but that would need to be related to the personal value for the gains. Personally I spent a lot but I got a fair bit too.

    Cost in other considerations, like mental anguish, loss of certainty in some areas, loss of integrity, etc. Again.. The price was high, but I came away with a lot more than I lost. “By whatever luck or good management” I came away with many very basic “enlightenments”. Any losses that I did experience have been temporary , as were some of the “wins”, but I feel I am much stronger for it.

    Would I recommend Scientology to others?… Yes, and I do… but I would never direct someone to “the Church of Scientology” if I honestly wanted to help them.

    I find some of the insights and procedures of Scientology quite workable, some more… some less. One of the key things that participating in Scientology did for me was that I was able to open whole new frontiers of the possibilities of new realities.

    Luckily I was able to avoid many of the traps, and escape, or am escaping from the others.


  138. Well said, Eileen. I have made the same kind of comment on different blogs – sometimes I feel like I’m back in the CoS where you get piled on if you have a viewpoint that doesn’t conform to the general consensus. Thank you for speaking up. And for your gracious apology to Marty.

  139. Dear Elizabeth,
    Well, what a pleasure to meet you fellow interdimensional wizard, or magic fairy or theta exterior or clear theta clear…. native state…. or just simply another soul….
    Amouria and Thexia are arriving… this summer in UK festivals and a base in France.
    Amouria is the ARC wing, Thexia is the Universal wing
    by coincidene you are at the begining
    with love light flowers and a giggle
    chase me!

  140. BBJ (that’s short for Basketball Jane) 🙂 But you know what? DId you notice now how Marty doesn’t introduce any more people that have left the church, like Kay Proctor and Luis Garcia and a couple of others. I used to love reading their stories because I always wanted to get the hell out of that church and I could never find anybody to discuss it with before, until people went public with the OT levels. So, I liked reading their stories to see if they had a worser time than me! Now, Marty stopped putting it! 🙂

  141. Elizabeth Hamre… you are just… magic!
    I really can see you clearly….
    or is it you who are writing this.
    Thexia and Amouria
    sparkles and flowers swirl from the screen

  142. Idle Morgue

    Thank you Toodangerous – I believe even if we don’t have family in – innocent people are getting hurt and we have some type of duty to do something about exposing the cult!

  143. Erzsebet
    Actually, responsibility is not limited to 100%. Two, or even more, can be involved in a situation and both can be 100% responsible (willingness to be or have been the source of action or occurrence) for the outcome. You were willing to take the risk of body pains and mass. You were willing to take the known risk of being in a car traveling at speeds dangerous to a human body.
    The other driver was willing to take the risk of harming another being and being harmed themselves.

    I may sound cold, and for that I apologize, I do not wish for anyone to be hurt, including me. But I know that as long as I keep living as a human, every few hundred years I will have a bad time of it. It is still better than sitting in no space, alone, or stuck in a can.

    If you need a hand, and could lend a hand, I could drive up. From our communications, I love you and Marildi and Oracle, and it’s about time I helped someone besides myself. Time I got a passport.
    ARCL, Mark

  144. Actually, if energy can neither be created or destroyed but can only be transformed, it wouldn’t be correct to say that a postulate “adds” energy to the universe – it merely transforms it.

    The same would be true when the postulate comes “off” (as in the auditing principle “postulate off equals erasure”). In that case, the pc – or individual in life, for that matter – has accomplished a new transformation of energy, one that transforms the previous transformation he made. In “realizing” (making real) the new transformation, he has a realization/cognition about it – which seems to me to simply be a new postulate!

    Fittingly, the applicable definition of postulate is “a prediction” (Tech Dict).

    I’m still working on how intuition fits in with this theory of mine. 🙂

  145. and life becomes the session
    and the next thing you know you are all the gods
    and more….just made another prototype meter digital like phone with usb for international sessions.

  146. p.s. Postulates are predictions because of the fact that all these accumulated transformations of energy is what continuously creates/re-creates the universe.

  147. oh Elizabeth…
    so utterly perfect!

  148. scramble your way back up the tree of cognition and explode as firework
    as flower open as cakes on sunday…
    you are spot on I utterly love your posts….

  149. I postulated Scientology, I said….when i was 18 in 1978 ‘if there is an all knowing entity… then it knows that I am out here looking for the answers.
    I did not know the word ‘Ethical’ but said ‘it also has far greater ability to present itself to me, than for me to find it.
    and therefore it would present itself to me in a fashion that i can understand… a sequence a series of steps….
    Someone said…. ive got a book for you! the fundamentals of thought…
    i read it and was so excited i went to the nearest org. I saw the grade chart and read all the levels… i read OT8 ‘knowing and willing cause over matter energy space and time’ i clarified what the word ’cause’ meant and then fell on the floor.
    I keyed out OT8 at that point. notice ‘keyed out’ because I realised I had created scientology by postulate…. Ron Hubbard………. everything.

    Anyone else here had anything similar….

  150. Elizabeth Hamre

    Ian… oh… compliments get me every time.. I melt into a large puddle! You should see me in person… really stunning… You know what I have noticed that the skin of the body has become lose and developed some kind of condition. I think that is called wrinkles 🙂 and the muscles sort of went south and the hair color changed to silver… but what the hell that is a body and not me.. I am beautiful if on intangible can be called beautiful.. 🙂

  151. Elizabeth Hamre

    Wizard darling… your perception is very good yes I am magic and flowers is life, I am master gardener too, go to facebook and there you can see one of the gardens I have created when I live in the State.
    If you care to write than I can tell you why you see those pictures… the f swirling flowers and magic dust all over the place!

  152. Hi Marildi, love talking to you. Been occasionally checking the SRT site. It’s interesting. Lots of ideas. Sometimes they get into endless complexities.

    Presentiment. Fun to discuss. Interesting. But I haven’t run into any problems, and am hesitant to look for any. This is not an APATHETIC attitude.

    My ‘belief’.
    The past no longer exists. It’s gone. Period. The future does not yet exist. It has not yet been created. There is no future to look at until someone makes it. It can be intended, or premeditated, but it has to be created before it is actuality. It may not always align with others ‘now’, but once there is interaction, it is the same ‘now’. Simple common sense has served me well so far.

    If I receive data that I can use to my or others benefit concerning the meter, I will test it. If it is useful, I will use it and disseminate the knowledge.

    My best advice, again to all reading: DO SOMETHING, TOMORROW AT 9:00 AM. Working? Then right after work. NOW. “But Mark, The tech has so many defects, Ron was self centered, and most of what he said was really from others.” But, but, but, but……. Bulls##t. Audit, meditate, read the Tao, do the academy levels, independent, with the church, or with a friend. Don’t believe anything, but do something you know is workable. You know what to do, right now. Do that, NOW.

    Worried about doing the wrong thing, DO THE WRONG THING, then do something else, and then something else. Crushed because you tortured and murdered thousands of people eons ago? SO DID I. Fix it. Can’t fix it now in your current condition? Work toward getting into a condition where you can fix it. That’s what I’m doing. I expect all of you to do the same. Or better.

    Do what you know, just do it, now.

    Sorry for the rant. Wait, no I’m not.
    It needs to be said once or twice a day.

  153. Elizabeth Hamre

    Ian, I just seen your video!!

  154. Elizabeth Hamre

    Wandering among the Stars

    Torch your curtains and open the windows wide.

    And look far, look far beyond the darkness of the Earthly Night.

    I am here, You have found me in the shimmering Light

    In the endless star studded Indigo Night.

    Now that you are here, in safety you can wonder,

    Wander forever among the stars.

    This is You and it is yours
    These endless space this wondrous star studded Indigo Light.

  155. Elizabeth Hamre

    Ian you need to explain Amouria and Thexia I haven’t a clue. I will miss the festival… the body is located in BC Canada.

  156. singanddanceall


    I don’t believe you.

    What can I say. There is no argument to discuss, As you have only provided words on a blog,

    I actually do not follow your logos.

  157. Elizabeth Hamre

    Eric thanks for sharing… it has been a great adventure for me also!

  158. Just notice that an imperative to save others is very like the cult imperative to save the planet. Many posts ago there seemed to be some gathering understanding that what went wrong for people in Scientology was that without noticing it, they self sacrificed in the first dynamic. For the sake of others. To save others.

    Attention and care to the self means to be grounded in what is, the only what is each of us can only ever really know. Well grounded ness permits a supported and effective reach out into the other dimensions. Reaching with no self support you fall on your face. Or you simply die of exhaustion trying to hold yourself up. Some may recognize these tai chi principles of martial art.

    I am taking Eileen’s words as just a reminder for myself that in the past I have put off what was needed for myself because I must save this other …and how did that work out. It was suppose to be just till they got helped but always…always it would turn out to take much much longer. hard to believe why it would take so long…later to see that it was partly. because I was helping … I, being an ungrounded being.

    As per the post, the necessity of conscience reminds me of the necessity of sila ( morality) taught by Buddha. This relates to Marty saying how intuition can only come if there is conscience. Not because there is a god in the sky saying you did good or you did bad so you get to and you don’t but because the first person who is injured by your immoral act is you. It is nature, our nature, and a natural law. To do bad things means generating a craving or aversive passion in yourself first. Intuition cannot pass through such mental cloudiness.

  159. Elizabeth — sorry to hear of that horrible accident.

    At some spiritual level maybe we do choose.

    But on Earth today, a major cult, Scientology, uses that hypothesis to utterly control its followers. Any failure of the tech, the case, any illness or accident, any “motivator” “pulled in” etc. are all and totally the fault of the cult member. By extension, any criticism of the cult is nattering and is sign of the members own overts; cult problems are the fault of the member. And anyone who “blows” (leaves without permission) shows evidence of having committed overts against the cult. The cult wins; the member loses. And anyone who gets sick is PTS; it is never anything wrong with the cult. Whenever a cult member wants to do something against the cult, it is an overt, and is against the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics. And when a member wants to do something for the cult, it is good, even if it is crime.

    The cult tricks its members into believing that the member is responsible for everything that happens to him or her. Everything. This is how the cult evades any sense of self-reflection, true ethics, or dedication to continual improvement.

    It is also a big part of how the cult utterly controls its members.

    The cult / Church of Scientology is a little like nuclear energy. It can be used for great good or awesome destruction. By refusing to be responsible and demanding the responsibility of everyone else in the world, CoS has made its choice not to grow, but to perish in the black, widening wake of its own overts.

  160. “Evil” means extreme moral wickedness.

    Word Origin & History
    evil O.E. yfel (Kentish evel) “bad, vicious,” from P.Gmc. *ubilaz (cf. O.Saxon ubil, Goth. ubils), from PIE *upelo-, giving the word an original sense of “uppity, overreaching bounds” which slowly worsened. “In OE., as in all the other early Teut. langs., exc. Scandinavian, this word is the most comprehensive adjectival expression of disapproval, dislike or disparagement” [OED]. Evil was the word the Anglo-Saxons used where we would use bad, cruel, unskillful, defective (adj.), or harm, crime, misfortune, disease. The meaning “extreme moral wickedness” was in O.E., but did not become the main sense until 18c. Related: Evilly. Evil eye (L. oculus malus) was O.E. eage yfel.

    This does not describe , I would think, 98% of the population of Earth.

    Yet look at all of the people who turn out to be qualified as “evil” in the Church. Or suspected of “evil intent or purpose”.

    So, this has got to be the flip side of a GPM right? What is on the other side of that? Holy. What else are you supposed to be if you are involved with a “Church”. To be Godly and virtuous.

    I haven’t met too many people in Scientology who qualify as holy. Although I did meet a few. If it isn’t holy to sit and audit others 12 hours a day seven days a week, I don’t know what is.

    Well, what if you don’t care to be holy anyway? All of the “rules” are an effort to push one towards some kind of holiness. If you are not going in agreement with that, you are evil.

    Now, it got so bad at the base, I kid you not, Laurie Webster wrote K.R. on an OT8 public for emitting “2D flows”. This woman was so beautiful she was a lethal weapon. The last thing she needed to do was emit “2D flows”. She was also a class 6 auditor. Had ZERO history of out 2D. Had been with the same guy for over ten years! She left the base and never returned.

    But, this is how sick the policing of “evil” got there. So, I reckon the lot of them think of themselves as “holy” people or on a mission to make “holy people”. Or a goal or purpose to “be holy”. The “evil” of the others on this planet, they find very disturbing.

    See, when the stated purpose was to clear people, the Church didn’t have any internal problems. Everybody was a happy camper and nobody cared what others were doing in their personal life.

    When the purpose was changed to “get ethics in on the planet”, the members became police like. Now that they have become a bonafide “religion”, they can not mix Church and State up, so they can’t even continue with a purpose to put ethics in the planet. They don’t have the power and never will.

    So, they still are thinking with this whole “get others ethics in” trip. So what do they do? They police each OTHER. They police each other to death. Now, if you don’t act holy, you are in a mess. Sec Checks every six months at your expense to ensure you are acting holy.

    The point is, most people don’t have goal or purpose to be holy. And only people working in the field of justice have purposes to police.

    “To be holy” can be a false purpose too.

    So, you have these staff running on the other side of false purposes. Seriously, who came into the Church because they wanted to be holy?

    They have these off purposes, such as “putting ethics in on the planet” when they have surrendered all of those rights to be any where near any form of government. What’s left? Cops and beggars?

    See, these are wrong items. Why should I care about if I am evil or not, if I have no purpose or goal to be holy? I don’t have a must have on other people being holy either. Most people are very decent. That’s good enough for me.

    But this fucking obsession with evil, in the Church, with people that don’t even have a rap sheet, is very aberrated. In fact, if you don’t think you are evil, you don’t qualify to dabble in what they have for sale.

    And what results? A very fucking treasonous group border lining on criminality. People that throw their friends and family under the bus. People that lie. People living in fear and terror. Look at what these OSA staff are willing to do to people! The culture has evolved into as evil of it’s own. And these people were good people, curious, helpful, before they got involved. “Disagreements and doubts” are viewed as evil though. So they agree. Did you know one definition of holy is “agreeable”?

    I mean, the wrong items, wrong indications and false purposes have just muddied that group into a ball of confusion and entheta. People do not even matter anymore, it’s the real estate, the fucking buildings that get applause!

  161. Thank you Elizabeth. I believe I understand your viewpoint. I share some of those perspectives.

    As to my own little passengers, I wonder if I could train them. Maybe I could set a bunch of them to be my alarm clock function. And put some former Arcturians at work on a tough math problem, like Fermat’s Theorem. Maybe I could group them by language competency so I could quickly be fluent in modern and ancient languages. If those little suckers are going to piggyback on my reality, they can still make themselves useful! 🙂

    Like Redford’s character commented in one movie while at the grave of a loved one, “Just because you are dead doesn’t mean you can’t make yourself useful” — or something to that effect.

  162. O.K., then you come out of it. There a few fundamentalists that can’t shake that police valence. They can get viscous and blood thirsty. Declare this and that and continue to forward the madness.

    But those people are not really doing anything like running centers. They really are not techies and are mostly untrained. Except for whatever they learned on the RPF.

    But you get these Scientologists coming out of the Church and distancing themselves from the madness, and they are setting up centers or field practices. Academies. Nobody is trying to be holy. We are all SPs now. So, nobody has any airs. There are no MAA’s or registrars. And the spaces and the people are just so totally cool. Everyone is happy, everyone is keyed out. Nobody is threatened. Nobody is burdened with this idea to make the planet holy or their friends wrong. And, it turns into a win win situation for everyone.

  163. Brilliant insight, Marty. There is another aspect in this that I realized recently and that is the continual push for someone to keep moving up the Bridge to the top. It dawned on me that this is like insisting that a street corner hot dog vendor learn calculus to be happy and productive in life when all he needs is some basic arithmetic to keep track of things. In discussing things with another long time SO vet I also came to understand that LRH tended to over-engineer many, many aspects of Dn and Scn to the point of obfuscation. Examples are the St. Hill work on R2-12, 3DXX and so on. Also the “refinements” of organizational tech such as the LRH Comm NW, FBO NW, FBO for MORE NW, Snr HAS NW and on and on. I think you are performing really important work by analyzing the subject so people can utilize what is workable and discard what is unworkable. And I will tell you from experience that much of the basic fundamental concepts are hugely popular and very very workable particularly when introduced to people with no connection to the organizations of Dn and Scn. Anyway, thanks for this post. It is very useful.

  164. Grasshopper (Mark P)

    Sorry to hear that you felt you needed to “thought stop.” Or that you thought you always needed to be “above 2.0” and therefore had to suppress your real emotions. In fact people who fake being “high toned” are mis-emotional by definition, but the current cancer-ridden bunch never actually studied the subject and so we have this crap masquerading as “Scientology.” Oh well.
    You and I have a differing opinion of Ron. I wonder if his last words were “Rose bud.”

  165. Holy cow, that is beautifully stated, CV.

  166. Elizabeth Hamre

    Ian… giggle ,,, chase me! LoL good one… there is love and my universe IS.. but not the kind of amour I have read in your link.. pure pleasure do not need additives but when that is added that kind of pleasure lasts only a moment. My reality 🙂

  167. Of course the body IS the cat. If the body were a fish, the being would swim it in, not walk it in. In that case, the body WOULD be the fish.
    Capice? They are like name tags. They may not be ‘basic truth’, but being basic truth all the time without pretense, without action, would be, IS, bo-ring! In fact, the potential of all possible futures are there.

    If not “cause motivated by a future”, perhaps you would prefer Nikos Kazantsakis’ line in “The Last Temptation of Christ” – “First came the wings and then the angel”.

    The fact is, we may stand in Eternity, but we live and act in Time.

  168. Yes, Elisabeth, that does help a lot. It shows me right away that in the situations I was thinking of, I had not thought of an “after”, a goal that lies behind what I wish to overcome. Interesting, thank you. I understand that you write from your experience and abilities, and just wanted to point out that not everybody has them (yet).

  169. Thanks, Eric, I will try that. Data gathering by writing it down may actually help clarify the issue(s). It is a form of looking, after all, and as one looks things over they seem less dangerous.

    Also, I found an article after writing my question, suggesting that other than in life threatening circumstances, the idea that one needs courage actually increases fear/anxiety ín proportion, and that instead one should try to drop resistance to that which one fears or is anxious about. Be present, mindful with the fear.

    I’m still stuck in a strange inertia, though. I wonder if sometimes when we want to rush in a do something (need for closure), our bodies/the universe/divine/life/better judgement/whatever(?) pracitcally makes us “practice not-doing” so that everything can fall into place.

    A question about judgement (discernment): How can one know when to act and when not to act?

  170. 😊… Sorry… The sigh made me smile… Possibly for the wrong reasons.

    Quickly though I have to thank you and those of your “ilk” (used in jest)… I was in denial for many years and it took a kind and empathic therapist to start me on a difficult journey of discovery all those years ago.

    Interestingly I found that particular therapist only got me so far and when I started reacting to her opinions of what my issues were and her lack of tangible solutions (Predominantly CBT and the like) I moved on. But I am forever grateful to her for making it safe to talk. Which up until then I had not.

    Anyhoo… Thank you.

    Regarding this post and the various comments.

    I have come to learn that Scientology is one of the most insidious of mental experiences one can subject themselves to. I was born into it and as such had a lot of un-learning to do and then a lot of learning which I continue to do today.

    The reasons for it’s extraordinary ability to mentally subvert it’s adherents are vast. And the recovering scientologist has an almost inexhaustible range of complications to sift through when extricating themselves, depending on their experiences within the cult.

    I imagine it must be fascinating for you to observe even if only through blogs. And I can imagine feeling the need to voice your genuine wishes for those who’s journey you have followed and wish well.

    What I have come to learn is that telling anyone what I think they should or should not do is seldom fruitful. And never more so than with a recovering scientologist. Despite our bombardment of “evaluations” throughout our scientological journey we were all successfully conditioned to react to anyone “evaluating” for us in the cold light of day. Behind closed doors by a senior or an auditor was fine… but outside? Never!

    The irony is that it is no business of mine what you or anyone else think of me. And should you make known your views about me and my life it is entirely up to me to react to them. It is this one freedom Scientology never allowed to grow within it’s members. Instead they, with few exceptions, are of the belief that an evaluation of them has the potential to do serious spiritual damage if not aggressively rejected at which point they have themselves added to their own mental baggage all by themselves.

    Anyway… This is all my opinion of course… But I appreciate your posts… I wish there were more learned and otherwise neutral commenters such as yourself. It would make for a more enlightening discussion in my view.

    But it’s Marty’s sandpit… And I’ll go back to my own now.


  171. spyrosillusionist

    I’m glad. And that was most of my point too, but in very different words. You see, we can agree so much and use different wording and then misunderstand and disagree.

    So, if you ceased to agree to anything, what reality would you then have? Nothing, right? That was my point –blankness in which you can freely put your own stuff in, if you want to put something in.

  172. martyrathbun09

    sandpit, sanddrift, sandtrap, sandstorm, sandbeach…

  173. As far as the question: is the effort worth the cost in scientology?
    To a certain point, yes. By this, and based on my experience, my mind, awareness, consciousness were all in disarray when I reached Scientology. In two years I was able to move from Objective to OT V and by then I had regained certainty on self, more awareness and other improvements.

    But, unbeknownst to myself I hit a brick wall when accepted that this was “the only way” for others to come out of unwanted conditions. I placed my own drive to seek for knowledge and truths aside and became more solid as time went on, as you said it, I myself forfeited it and ended with less self determinism, less willingness to find more nor to follow my intuitive perceptions and so on.

    So, the answer is, just to a certain point. This point could be established with the freedom to let the person choose and follow his own path; for example, one individual told me that Key To Life alone was all he considered was needed to change his life radically. Another person may consider that the Grades are all she ever looked for and now is ready to continue creating his life, and so on. So, if this is the case let them go, is up to each to create his own path.

    The evaluative aspect of Scn is, has been and always will be deadly for any self determinism, sane consciousness and thus higher levels of thought including intuition.

    Gandhi said: “the instruments for the quest of truth may appear quite impossible to an arrogant person and quite possible to an innocent child”.
    And arrogance is one of the hallmarks of Scientology as delineated by the idea of it ‘being the only’ answer; whereas a child could be described as willing to look and learn as everything looks new to him.

    On the other hand I can not deny that I am so grateful in having lived the experience of the authoritarian, dogmatic and cultish aspects of Scn as now I know how to distinguish such dominant practices and is something that I will be able to recognize and handle from here on out. Sometimes I even wonder if one choose that path in order to realize the difference between ‘someone else’s path’ versus one’s own; having lived it can give one a fresh view of an immense “intuit that there are in fact broader horizons than Scientology permits exploration of” as expressed by you. So, I am with you as I do know there are broader horizons indeed. And thank you for the expose’.

  174. martyrathbun09

    Thanks Dan. Good observation on perpetual complexities. That is the reason I keep coming back to the Tao as a starter for folk immersed in the scientology experience:
    e.g.: “I have just three things to teach: simplicity, patience, compassion. These three are your greatest treasures.”

  175. “Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it.”

    Mahatma Gandhi

  176. Touché brother… Touché.

    Miss ya… We need a catch up…😊

  177. I have a neighbor that is a retired Air Force Colonel. He’s an old and ornery man that has many fascinating stories to tell. He has shared many of his stories with me and he has shared them again and again and again. One anecdote he tells is about when he got in trouble with his grade school teacher. The teacher, in her address to the class, mentioned that since the sun wasn’t shinning today they were going to….this is the point where my neighbor interrupts his teacher and corrects her. He informs her that she is wrong. The sun is shinning but it just can’t be seen because of all the clouds in the sky.

    The sun is always shinning even when the clouds get in the way and you are unable to see it. Even when the earth rotates on its axis and causes one side to be hidden from the sun, the darkness that side experiences does not stop the sun from shinning. Intuition is like the sun, it is always shinning (communicating). And like the sun’s rays of light can be blocked by myriad forms of interference, intuition’s signal can also be blocked and go unheard.

    Intuition is the voice that is not a voice that is ever so gently awakening the dreamer from the dream. Intuition is known by many names but regardless of whatever name it is known by, its function remains the same. It is the “voice” within that is awakening the dreamer. There is only one dreamer.

    Intuition does not know time, or impatience, or perception, or good and evil, right and wrong, more or less ….these are all constructs of the dream. The dream, of course, is not real.

    The most effective guardian of the dream; the most effective block to intuition’s communications, is the act of holding onto grievances regardless of the perceived magnitude of the grievance. Holding onto a grievance makes the dream real. And while the dream is believed to be real, awakening is prolonged.

    It was listening to my intuition and following its prompts that brought me to scientology. And, it did most definitely seem, that while I was a scientologist, my intuition diminished to a point of non-existence. However, that was not the case at all! My intuition never lost a beat. And even though I did not recognize that I was doing so, I never ceased following its prompts. Prompts, that eventually, when the time was right; when I had gotten all I needed from my scientology experience, guided me away from scientology and toward my next step.

  178. Mike does it now… Very well I’d say…

  179. Balance.

    It’s importance is matched only by it’s seeming innocuousness.

    In my attempt at a balanced opinion…😊

  180. martyrathbun09

    Let’s do it.

  181. Alanzo, you wrote…”This was my basic mistake in getting involved in Scientology as deeply as I did: I felt that I needed more CERTAINTY in life to be more successful at it.”

    Something that I’ve been pondering lately is how, from the get-go (wherever in time the get-go is), we are taught that we are incomplete as we are. We are taught that we are less and that, if we have any hopes of having a somewhat successful and happy life, we need to be more, do more and have more. ‘More’ becomes our idol. We are taught that we need to be better. that we can always be better, that we can always improve and the way to do that is to…(depends on what culture the person is in).

    It is no wonder that with indoctrination such as this being so deeply instilled, that when we encounter something like Scn that promises the ne plus ultra in ‘More,’ that we dive in and immediately head for the deep end.

    Wonder how it would go if the indoctrination, instead of teaching us that we are incomplete, taught us that we were complete in every way, that we are Everything and lack for absolutely nothing, and that our only function was to remember who we really are?

  182. There’s no money in that.


  183. Eric, I’m of the same mind. In a world of perception where no two people will ever ‘see’ the exact same thing or have the exact same understanding; where each person can have their own truth…reality and truth cannot be anything but a construct.

  184. in‧tu‧i‧tion ĭn′to͞o‑ĭsh′ən, ‑tyo͞o‑
    The faculty of knowing or understanding something without reasoning or proof.
    See Synonyms at reason.
    An impression or insight gained by the use of this faculty: “I had this intuition you would come here just after the rain broke” (Carson McCullers).
    Middle English intuicioun, insight, from Late Latin intuitiō, intuitiōn-, a looking at, from Latin intuitus, a look, from past participle of intuērī, to look at, contemplate : in-, on; see in– 2 + tuērī, to look at.

  185. Elizabeth Hamre

    Mark you are a very nice .. just simply lovely..You did not sound cold at all.. facts are facts .. I see what you mean about responsibility thank you I got that. In which city you live in? Spring is beautiful on the Lower Mainland..and Vancouver is one of the most beautiful cities on this Planet nestling in the arms of the Rocky Mountains and overlooking the Pacific.

  186. Elizabeth Hamre

    🙂 Right you are!

  187. Intuition cannot be allowed to be expressed or developed in an authoritative regime like Scientology.

    In Scientology, it’s practitioners are implanted with dogma and doctrine in place of direct knowing or intuition.

    Then Scientologists are threatened with punishment for daring to think outside the prison built by Ron.

    Intuition is crushed, knowing is outlawed, disagreement = attack.

    L Ron Hubbard implanted his phobias, imaginations, delusions in the mind of his minions, as well as some good information about the mind and life.

    Therein lies the maze, the dichotomous twists of confusion that lay ahead of the newly out Scientologist to resolve:

    What were the truths of life and what were Ron’s delusions.

  188. Hi Dan,
    Well said…..I couldn’t agree with you more.
    R2-12 and 3DXX was very complicated stuff.
    Keep it simple and give the PC those fun wins
    and cognitions. Then let ’em work those wins
    into their life and livingness.

  189. Yes, but Mike Rinder has a less literate style than Marty does. 🙂

  190. Elizabeth Hamre

    Letting go…I am more than glad… The courage I gained the iron will I have and the reality that I don’t recognise boundaries limitations were born out out of desperation , unhappiness, loneliness and disappointments.
    I will not write here how I have started but if you are interested go to my blog and read
    “To walk the walk of the Solo Auditor: the Path of Enlightenment, The self-discovery.”
    We all have that desire..we all have dreams go after yours make it happen!

  191. Crispy crack of ice and frost… crystal maze of diamond bells..
    walking crunch with feet snow deep… smile as wide as morning sunshine….. distand body walking soft…
    Lookinmg far from cloud to cloud… look to stars of minds eye view
    my stars… my stars…my stars of me…. stars of mind of sweet smile kiss
    giggle in the winds of hair wisp past….. zoooom to grass tip of dew drop
    clear….. refelct inside rainbow prism… rounded view of body walk past…
    jump past body to crunchy frost…. zooming atoms wizzing with bliss… dance of infinate… beauty be for beauty is. smile on water ripple beyond.. time of time and is of be. jus’ playin…
    Ian x

  192. Thanks Marty for giving us a great topic to get right into!
    lovely to see all these great perspectives.
    :o) Ian

  193. Monty

    Yes. Exactly.


  194. That’s a good point, Dan. My first MU in Scientology was “Routine 3D Criss-Cross”, i.e. R3DXX. My mom was on the levels in New York, and I was 9 or 10. When I did my levels in ’76 and ran across GPM references on Class 2, I spent the week learning about running GPMs and 3DXX to clear the MU. I loved it.

    I personally am very technically oriented. The intricacies of R3 and goals running, etc., really appealed to me. The intricacies and precision of L&N, and the methods of assessment, and meter phenomena also really appealed to me. The structure of the bank, all of it.

    My career is in software and IT – again, very technical. When I was into music, I was into recording engineering and sound, not actually playing the instruments.

    I played chess, and loved strategy games.

    The point is, really, your point. Which is that not everyone is technical, or needs to know the intricate details. Not everybody is technical. Actually, most people aren’t technical in this manner.

    With intricacy comes confusion. So, we have people saying that unless you are above 2.0 all the time, you are downtone. Or claiming that the meter only works because people squeeze the cans. Or that auditing is hypnosis.

    You also get people in the chair who miscall reads, who put the meter on a pedestal (and yet still miscall reads). Who stare like a loon and call it “TR 0”. Or who call Ron God. Or the tech unassailable and cast in stone.

    But you know, just because people can’t figure it out does not mean that it does not work when done right, with love, and with technical skill. The auditors that I knew, that were great auditors, were incredibly compassionate, very kind, and very caring. This is the hallmark of a great auditor. They care. They help you. And they mastered their craft.

    On the other hand, not everyone needs to be, or should be, an auditor or technically trained. I totally agree that people should get what they can get out of Scientology, and move on.

  195. Elisabeth… I dont mind if you are male, short back and sides haircut, 93 years old or a nun…. you are utterly beautiful… ive sent you an email.. mine you said you saw my video… got lots on you tube ‘interdimensional wizard’ ‘ wizard ian moore’ anyway Thexia… is as it sounds THETA… EX…. theta ‘out’ to thex as a verb is to exteriorise.
    so once ‘out’ of all the gunge of body and mind there is then comming together in love ‘Amouria’ … and yes including sensuality. too many barriers on earth currently… so a promotion of relaxation in terms of relationships and an expansion and allowance of having dreams come true. Thexia is the ‘understandings’ that enable Amouria.
    Setting up the new center in france this summer… nice farmhouse, barn, land… cute… discover the magic of you … etc etc..
    I got an international wizard school for kids too… 70 students… look ‘The Electronic Wizards Apprenticeship’…
    x love magic flowers and pink fluffy things all floating about and making you giggle…
    Ian xx

  196. Hi Lars, did you come to england many years ago? east grinstead perhaps.. cant remember where it was… wondering if i met you then…
    Ian… early 80’s

  197. The Story of Neil. An unexpected succefull escape: 1 of 7

  198. Intuition Vs The E-Meter:
    Does the use of the E-Meter detract from intuition.
    Auditing can be done unmetered… many proccesses.. HAS CO AUDIT was unmetered and I certaqinly got amaizzzzing insights from that… just running simple dycotomies.
    I am an electronics wizard and build micro controller systems, i’ve built several meters , the last one is handheld and screen like a mobile phone with usb etc for auditing over the internet etc.
    But I guess if we say the meter causes reliance and a negation of intuition… would we also say that reliance on a mobile phone negates telepathy?
    ‘just a finght! wot i done in me ed.’
    :o) Ian

  199. Letting Go

    I am glad that you found that of some help… It was a crap-shoot!

    That article has a good point too. “Embracing” (confronting) the fear, etc. would seem workable. It is like the line that goes… “Every day, do something that terrifies you.” or concepts like… “if it doesn’t kill you, it will make you stronger.” One would expect things of that nature to be quite effective at defusing fear.

    You asked a question about discernment: “How can one know when to act and when not to act?”

    Well, I think that there is only one source for that knowledge or discernment, and that would be the person asking the question… Basically it is simply a choice. The “problem”, “when and when not” is resolved by a decision, one way or the other.

    And here is the cool part of that, in my mind. It really doesn’t matter which you choose. The fact of the matter is that, whatever happens next, you will have arrived there by your own decision (and following actions or inaction). If you find the new state of affairs is aligning with your goals, continue to pursue it. If you find that things have gotten worse, re-evaluate and make a new decision. In any case, immediately following any decision, you will find yourself at the point of needing to make a new decision… some seemingly easy… (maybe even automatic) some, not so much.

    Personally I find “evaluating data” and finding “whys” a very key tool in pursuing goals of any kind. It is way up there with “being” and “perceiving”. In Scientology terms… Auditing depends on it, Admin Scales depend on it, “ethics” depends on it, “success” depends on it, “Survival” depends on it…. Hell, “life” itself depends on it.

    ….And “judgement” and “discernment” depend on it.

    But whether you have made “right” decisions or not, the one thing that seems to always be the case, is that you will get to experience what happens next. Re-evaluate, make adjustments, and forge forward.

    ….And find ways to HAVE FUN!


  200. Neither do I.

    I don’t think you understand the Eastern concept of Void-Emptiness.

    And I’m not buying what you are selling.

    Thanks but no Thanks

  201. Letting Go

    Did you catch this video from Marty’s “Awakening part II” post?

    If that is not a good link you will find it posted in the thread on

    I consider it well worth watching.


  202. spyrosillusionist

    This is a bit irrelevant, just throwing in an idea. I wish in SCN discussions there some stress on help. I don’t mean to talk about and analyse what help is and about the things that don’t help…but actually help each other.

    About the only help topics I have seen are by professionals who offer help for a price.

    Less direct help is by people who offer advice and philosophical analysis –some get helped others get upset etc.

    In the COS the help was from the COS staff to the public or the COS staff to the COS staff, and you were not allowed to freely help unless, you had a license and blah. Whether it was actual help or not, is a different topic.

    But what about in the free sector of SCN? And by help I don’t mean just SCN stuff, I mean help in general. “Got a buck?”, “any spare e-meters?”.

    In the current western political system as well as in the COS system it was considered kind of a disgrace to give or take without exchange. Exchange is exchange, but giving (at will) and taking (at will) without exchange is no overt.

    More help less fighting more friends less enemies.

  203. Grasshopper, yes, I think that in the end even LRH realized that he had gone way beyond what was actually necessary (i.e., workable). Around 1964 (or late 63) he dropped the 3DXX stuff like a hot potato and soon people were solo auditing on R6EW and by 1965, the Clearing Course. And those two are very simple to understand and do and get gains from. It is a shame he let the Admin Tech system and Ethics system continue to grow out of control like bad patches of crabgrass.

  204. Hi Cris,
    Thank you for your insightful explanation of the impact of the culture of sciontology on the mind of adherents. It explains some of the “reactivity” that I have noticed on some blogs. It is similar to reactions seen in people who have been bullied or abused, creating a “fragility” about things that might be construed as critical or controlling.
    Glad you found a kind an empathic therapist who made it safe to talk. The good news about therapists is that we (clients) can take what we need at the time and then move along when it becomes less useful. Unlike scientology.

  205. Luis Agostini

    Thanks Marty for keep bringing to the light the soul, heart, essence, intuition deteriorating/dimming/robbing aspects of a large part of Ron’s technology.

    Its biggest crime, in my view, is to disengage the soul from its connection to itself, its beautiful qualities and the contents of its inner world.

    In practicing Scientology one does not nourish and develop the soul’s ability to be, to evolve, to know, and to act independent led only by its intuition, the viewpoints it forms and its experience.

    The moment one steps in Scientology the soul gets disempowered with the invalidation that Ron knows more than one and one is incapable of transcending or evolving without him.

    The empowerment of Ron, his viewpoints, his assertions of what one’s inner world consists of, of the E-meter’s to determine what is and is not in one’s world, of the path one must follow does is what gets implanted.

    To me, Scientology is a dependency creating system meant to trap and rob the soul of three of its biggest assets: its intuition and the power and strength to know and to establish and follow its own self created path..


  206. Beautifully expressed.

    Brene Brown would very much agree with you I suspect.

    Alonzo… If you haven’t seen this yet please do. You have helped me with your contributions over the years and I’d very much like to repay your efforts with this introduction to Brene Brown.

    This is a beautiful talk… Full of very apt wisdom for those of us having survived Scientology.

  207. LRH talked about a lot of things, and in the formative times of ’52 and onwards a lot of ground was covered, but never properly (imho) evaluated as to importances. There was a lot of talk about OT then, and various abilities and so on. Then later, as the movement expanded, there were comments about how you could “straighten out man without making an OT”, and now, well, it seems the inversion is complete and MEST is senior to considerations.

    But I digress. One of the abilities discussed was a beings ability to “pervade” a space, or object, and “know”. One has to discard the thought band, the logic band, the aesthetic band, and just pervade a space and know. Theta senior to MEST. And that modus operandi I find to be of value, and greatly simplifies potential complexities. Now, this tends to upset some people to irrational ends. And not without good reason. MEST civilizations do not like ice ages, floods, super nova and other “pranks” done by “theta beings” and so have at various times developed methods of entrapment for “security” reasons to ensure that these “aliens of extraordinary ability” leave them seriously alone. So those who have tis ability tend to keep it to themselves, now wanting to end up on the wrong end of a witch hunt.
    Another topic along that line is the “intention is cause” topic. Einstein called it “spooky cause at a distance”. It is now referred to as “quantum entanglement” in the physics world. I suppose it is somewhat analogous to the expansion and dissipation of “anchor points”, which as a phenomenon is routinely experienced in NOT’s sessions and solo sessions. But again, anyone who has truly experienced “Tone 40 Intention” (as Earle Cooley expressed in one of the early IAS videos) also realizes that with it comes Full Responsibility. Which again, is not something most people want to cop to, as it tends to as-is most any game going.

    Is the effort worth the cost in Scn? My opinion is that it used to be worth it, but the transformation of Scn from a service delivery model to a fundraising model has tilted things in the other direction. And for those who have eyes to see, and ears to hear, the majority of the data is “free”.
    As per LRH’s wishes, inscribed on the opening pages of the Tech Vols, and elsewhere.
    Your mileage may vary.

  208. Tom, you are living proof that the truth is alive and well in the world. I totally agree. There is nothing wrong with most of the tech, just a few of the things LRH probably needs to revise a little to make them work better in the current environment. I could not agree more that a machine does not determine my freedom and everything else that you said. Ditto! 🙂

  209. Looking at Scientology years later it looks for me that there are 2 versions of Scientology. One side is the enslave version and the other one is the freeing version. But both versions are in the same book. (between both extremes are shades of good and bad). Which side one is seeing or using is totally up to the person reading that book. The reader has the freedom to use it utterly good or bad or any step in between those poles.
    So, L. Ron Hubbard gave us a book (all his writings and tapes) and did not tell or order the reader
    how to interpret it. The reader has the total freedom of how he wants to understand and use it.

  210. In a nutshell — EMPTINESS = empty of concepts

    That is what emptiness is — the mind isn’t habitually creating a concept based on me and other

    And as a result the world/life/our lives have endless possibilities

    It’s WAY easier said than done.

    It’s possible to experience emptiness while meditating, less easy while off the cushion, somewhat easy when with people who share ones views and nearly impossible when triggered by someone else

    A good test to see how far you’ve “advanced” (which isn’t what one is supposed to do on buddhist journey) is 1) enter into a dead-end relationship and bang your head against a wall for a few years 2) visit with contentious aggressive family members on a family vacation on a cruise ship – unable to get off

    Either will test you to the core.

    You will probably start all over again from the beginning 🙂

  211. Iceland?

  212. Elizabeth Hamre

    C… totally fine with me.. why should you have reality on my cognitions? you will have your own when the time comes to have them.. 🙂

  213. I did catch that video when it was posted. Excellent, well worth the time, and pertinent to my question. Piecing things together here, Elisabeth helped me see I should consider what I want to achieve that lies behind the fear, you helped me see that inspecting the issue and clarifying it by writing it down addresses it from the other side, and lastly, whatever the decision, at least I acted.

    I think your advice “Find ways to HAVE FUN!” is some of the best I’ve heard recently. Thanks!

  214. I couldn’t help but notice that David has his commando crew of high classed attorneys back in Texas court today performing.

    I can guess I know what he is thinking. He might awaken one day in the near future to find the skies and seas have parted for him, and the red carpet is rolling out for him.

    And why would something like that manifest?

    After thirty years of setting other people for losses? He got so determined to set everyone else up for losses, his own intention to create losses begins to take over his own space.

    He has become a player in his own losing games. He has fallen from “game maker” to game player. Other people have moved up to game maker, and he has become a player in THEIR games. Well, he teeters on being a player. He is actually falling south towards becoming a broken piece.

    He is out of favor with the Gods. He is out of the know within the invisibles.

    He has fallen from the “Teflon Don” as even the Gods that delight in mischief, are repelled by his cowardice and unwillingness to own to the mischief he subscribes to. He openly pretends holiness and demands that from others. He is a dilettante. He suppresses mischief in others and has lost favor with these Gods as well.

    He stands without allies within the invisibles.

    What is the basic purpose of his attorneys? Justice? Or injustice? The basic purpose flows through time. $$$$$$$. David has created a new basic purpose for the Church. $$$$$$$. He attracts like minded peers.
    His attorneys purpose is to profit through his misery. Just as he has done to others for decades.

    This is known as conditions. These are the conditions.

    The seas will not part, the skies will not open. The red carpet is nailed to the floor by slaves if it is there for him to stand upon. The elements have parted from his domain.

    The worst imaginable future awaits him. Someone else is going to have a win.

  215. Elisabeth, I have visited your blog in the recent past and read some of your articles, particularly those on magic. You know, this is just my present reality and I am only communicating it so you know where I’m coming from: What you write about seems to me partially like a fairy tale, a magical life, too good to be true. Then again, I see you talk about traps, and I wonder if the consideration that one is trapped isn’t the trap itself? I wonder whether Hubbard lost his sanity seeing traps everywhere. So I am not sure what to make of it. I like the idea of magic, but not the idea of traps.

    From where I sit, it is like reading a great adventure story, one that I can only experience by reading. I know, pick up the cans – but we’ve already discussed that, and before I touch any cans, I would very much like to know I’m doing more than entering my own labyrinth without a golden thread.

  216. David Miscavige is steeped in ceremonial magic. There are higher magics.

  217. That’s right Dan – and I remember him saying that the biggest issue about group leadership is how to handle succession. He stated the problem very well and in the end, the complicated structures, the corp structure, the myriad “networks,” like LRH Comm, FBO, WDC, CMO, FB, etc., etc., did not solve the issue, and ended up being a cussing mess.

    Personally, I never respected the ethics tech. The upper conditions had some use and provide a decent albeit simple guideline for how to deal with personal and group productivity, but the lowers were crazy. To my mind, Ron just tossed them off without any real explanation or guidance in one or two page PLs. “Enemy: Find out who you really are.” WTF? “Treason: Find out that you are.” WTF again? “Confusion: Find out where you are.” Again, WTF?

    Ron’s attitude toward your own analysis and pondering on whether you should be in a particular group or not is really, really bad. The “doubt” formula is a study in “us” vs. “them” and that if you even waver, you are a bastard, as is “Liability.” “Deliver an effective blow to the enemies of the group one has been pretending to be part of despite personal danger.” Emphasis mine. Give me a break.

    On the other hand – let’s look at what a person in true liability would be. He would be someone who stole from the company or group. Someone who was spending corporate money he shouldn’t have spent. Entering into contracts that should not be entered into. Selling product at below cost. These are all bad things. In the real world, people are fired when this is discovered, and sometimes charges are brought against them.

    The complete irony of Scientology (and Ron) is that in a Scientology org the person is not fired. They are instead put in a condition – perhaps the RPF if they are on SO staff. Almost no matter what. I mean, in business people are usually chucked out when there are crimes or perceived incompetence. Except for the fact that certain Sea Org types and over zealous EOs over-assigned and over-enforced these conditions, this is actually kinder and more generous. The person is still a group member, but needs to fix the problem. They are not just chucked.

    But, if you look at the dearth of information on Ethics and Justice – only a few words on tape, only a few PLs and HCOBs – it is amazing how out-of-hand it got!

    So in the end, Ron was right about a few things: One, justice cannot be trusted in the hands of men. That is demonstrable inside and outside Scientology. Two, Leadership succession is incredibly difficult. Companies manage this by Boards of Directors and augury, and states do it by firm law and elections.

    But, yeah, there are some gems in Green on White, but mostly it is a big, freakin’ mess.


  218. Elizabeth Hamre

    WINDHORSE…..” 2) visit with contentious aggressive family members on a family vacation on a cruise ship – unable to get off””
    Now this made me lough aloud. I year back on apartment come up in my younger sister house. It is a lovely place and I felt fine about her, her house her garden and with the Universe general I moved in happily. Well, Hell broke lose.. I was criticised for my English how I speak. how I do the laundry. how much heat I use, how I garden and I am a Master gardener, I was corrected every possible way. If I started to say something the topic was taken over and explained what I wanted to say, what I meant and how should be said in the first place. I don’t believe that there was a time when I said something was not down graded into powder of negative shit.
    When I have moved here I knew there had to be a good reason and there was something here I needed to confront. I have found a major item after few dose sessions had huge cognitions..
    Even after all the sessions I have had in 40 years and hundreds of thousands cognitions I have found something so incredible what is possible how power can be used for few days spin-ned me in.. keyed me out totally.
    I know this come up so late after so many sessions because I could not have confronted such a reality.. more likely I could not understood that such reality is existing in this universe..
    So, I had great gains because the best I am seen here is a low life a totally degraded being who never had done anything right in her life..
    Yes.. this has been a good move… but so far all the moves I made has been good.
    By the way she did her OT levels too in ST Hill in 76 but don’t believe in that shit since it was a joke… Her comment has been on me solo auditing: I can see that because you are in such a bad place.”” !
    Life is wonderful and gifts which come our way can have most interesting wrapping! WINDHORSE My best to you.
    PS: I almost forgot: today a friend has come to see me.. she can see energy flows[ eyes are not in use] and seen my sister beside me since I made a lunch for us… When my sister left she turned to me and said…” how can you handle that huge energy mass she is continually hitting you with and she do it every time she turns to you! ”
    Until I have found that major item I could not handle it at all and by that time I have pulled all my O/W’s on her and still did not work., now I am totally fine.. Auditing works! “) “) “)

  219. How do you see all this? How do you read the world’s symbols?

  220. Robert Almblad

    I agree Dan

    In 1970-1 I sat in my isolated monk but luxury apartment and I read all the LRH the books written in the 50’s including actually running all the processes on myself (excluding RT 45). At the time I had no communication with any Scientologist and had not walked into any org prior to this.

    In 1972 I went to LA to take a course at CCLA for the 1st time and I read KSW for the 1st time on my 1st auditor course HSDC. I was absolutely dumbstruck when I read something like “We will not speculate here how it was I rose above the bank…”

    Why would he not tell us why or how he rose above the bank? Was he a god descended down to earth? I think at this point he co-opted god and gave us KSW.

    He was obviously pissed when he wrote KSW. Anyway, it took me 40 years to figure out that in 1972 I had become a member of a cult that believed in a god on earth.

  221. I’d say that’s very fair. And I’d say that if you read the book with the intention to help, to love, and with compassion, you will find the freeing version.

  222. Elizabeth — I wasn’t even addressing you — just pointing out what emptiness means as it is often misunderstood.

    Thank you for your vote of confidence though that someday I just might evolve to a point of having cognitions …

  223. Elizabeth Hamre

    Letting go… My blog what I write is my reality, my experiences and cognitions from sessions. The Blog is a Diary the partial journey, me retracing my steps to the beginning when I entered into this Universe. Yes, there is magic in the universe and what I experience to me is magical..this is how I see the Universe. It is a beautiful place, where every experience is grand, because it was created by us for our own enjoyment. Yes and there are traps… those traps were created by us for good reasons.. But please understand this is my reality.. and one more thing there are other Universes but long as one has only reality on this cant comprehend the other realities and these are the traps: the beliefs which do not allow one see beyond them. Our existence is a great grand adventure and I am sure yours is equally grand! The Universe only contains what you have put there and nothing more… that is why when one confronts this universe is SELF DISCOVERY! You can write to me anytime Best to you! PS: I have erased fears in 97 I have none.. and nothing scares me… to me trap means a energy mass topped with idea and that concepts make one believe that there is nothing left to confront but leads back to the MEST UNIVERSE. if you have questions please ask.!

  224. Nice rant, Mark. What a construct! (LOL)

    Hey, I love talking to you too. I know you’re THERE. And OPEN. At the same time, maybe the next thing we should graduate from is… the blogs! What a concept. Or should I say what a construct! LOL again.

    Seriously, I have felt for some time now that life itself is a process. A very good one, too. And I have to add that my personal “set-ups” to make gains from this process – more so than I most likely would have otherwise – was none other than Scientology. Of course, the blogs are part of life too, but they can become a sort of limiting “cult” in themselves. There may very well come a point of diminishing returns where you’ve learned the life lessons you can from them – and even though they’re still fun, there are other fun things that too much blogging time can keep you from. I’m still working it out. 😉

  225. Elizabeth Hamre

    WINDHORSE.. I don’t doubt that for a second , we all have our time to do that path.. and I have written thinking that you might be entertained reading something like that..

  226. Here’s an excerpt from an article about some amazing experiments relating to intuition:

    “In the words of Grazyna Fosar and Franz Bludorf, our DNA creates ‘magnetized wormholes’ in the fabric of space: ‘tunnel connections between entirely different areas in the universe through which information can be transmitted outside of space and time. The DNA attracts these bits of information and passes them on to our consciousness.’

    “Most of us know this process as intuition or psychic insight. Ordinary human memory also operates on similar principles, since available evidence indicates that our memories are stored not in our brains but in aetheric/implicate/time-space field structures which envelop our bodies (our ‘auric fields’).”

    The full article is here:

  227. Ian, since you are into building e-meters, you might want to swap notes with some like-minded electronic wizards here:

  228. Gosh, Val, it’s always refreshing to read your real-life viewpoint.

  229. I was entertained!!


    Glad you are having great wins and enjoying yourself.

  230. Actually, it doesn’t have anything to do with symbols. It has to do with conditions.

    When Hubbard first got started communicating, he was very much pushing magic. You listen to his early tapes or read the transcripts, he says the source is magic and alludes to magic frequently.

    He was a real spell breaker. I think he had aversions to the ruling class.
    He was also brilliant at high magic. The way I see it, he had a purpose to put high magic, hitherto only dabbled in by secret societies and the educated and wealthy, (the ruling class), into the hands of ordinary people. To give them power. I think he started out with a very clean purpose. To run one big giant CAN HAVE with knowledge.

    He did pioneer into the invisible. Hell, Christopher Columbus probably wasn’t a saint either. He just built bridges. He sailed into the unknown and made it known.

    But putting high magic into the hands of superstitious, socially propped up people, with common problems the elite were not plagued with, proved to be a different animal.

    By the time all of the policies, HCOB’s, books, rules, procedures, advices and petty wars were created to manage the task, He had fallen onto ceremony. Ceremonial magic.

    And if any activity stands on ceremony it is the Church of Scientology. David Miscavige’s comm line to the world are these ceremonious events plagued with ceremony. It’s all about the ceremony now. The ceremonious buildings. The ceremony for the patrons. His tailor made clothes. His uniformed soldiers, his cache of saboteurs, his famous muses.

    His “leadership” is one of taking people AWAY from the unknown and the invisible and fixating them back into the KNOWN and the solid and the ceremony of ancient Rome. Like a bad copy of Marc Antony. He can only function in ceremony.

    Ceremonial magic has it’s place for sure.

    But now he opposes people who do not stand on ceremony. They can function and even prosper in chaos. They create policy minute by minute because they are in present time. And no policy is fixed, only purpose. The policy supports the purpose. It is not their purpose to support policy.

    These are just current conditions.

  231. Grasshopper, your comments are some of the best, and I get that you have a great understanding of Scientology. So I was surprised at what you wrote about the lower conditions. For example, in HCOPL “Hats, Not Wearing,” LRH gave an example of “Treason: “Find out that you are” which made the formula quite understandable, I thought. Also, you might be using an inappropriate definition of “pretending.” I had a problem with it too until I looked it up.

    1. To claim, allege, especially when falsely or as a form of deliberate deception.
    2. To feign, affect (a state, quality, etc.).]
    3. To lay claim to (an ability, status, advantage, etc.).
    4. To make oneself appear to do or be doing something; to engage in make-believe.

    For the Enemy formula, “Find out who you are,” here are definitions of “who” that I think are important to consider:

    1. what person or persons? >Who did it?
    2. (of a person) of what character, origin, position, importance, etc. >Who does she think she is?

    This subject of ethics conditions may be pretty academic at this point but I thought the above might interest you anyway. If not, just ignore the dev-T. 🙂

  232. If David Miscavige strangled someone to death, tomorrow in front of 150 witness’, and it was captured on video, shown on every news channel planet wide, he would still walk into a court room and enter a “no guilty” plea.

    That’s just his policy. Yes, he has his own policies. You could Google, “The Church of Scientology denies”. 558,000 results. His policy is fixed and he is totally predictable.

    What he used to enslave others, hangs about his neck like an ankle bracelet issued to inmates under house arrest.

  233. Tom, really great comment.

  234. Elizabeth Hamre

    FOTF2012 I like your post.. these free beings can be fun too. and they are great communicators. I was licking a spoon full of maple syrup and a I clearly heard a voice “Why are you drinking the blood of the tree?:)

  235. Elizabeth Hamre

    FOT when I was in the church to me was not a cult but lot of fun great adventure, good friends and winning all the way!

  236. Elizabeth Hamre

    Ian I just got this post. I think my computer is doing tricks on me. and dumped a dozen old post here on the same time. Machines and me we are not on the same page.

  237. Elizabeth Hamre

    Ian you just scared me… machine??? ohhhhh.. But in fact I would like to be on friendly term with them but I have been excluded from their universe!

  238. Elizabeth Hamre

    Sp.. hey there young man… one do not need agreement in order to have a wonderful incredible, magnificent universe and guess sweet pea that universe could be filled with incredible beings and enjoying what ever yet not one agreement was made or no ack was used.. Yet it exist.. That is the Universe..

  239. Elizabeth Hamre

    Valkov I am always happy to have communication from you! But are you trying to mix me up with fish and cat thing? you know I am very slow comprehending things like that.. Now I will have a sleepless night trying to figure out do cats swim or do fish walks? or other way around?:)

  240. No worries, M. ;). Believe me, I word cleared these up the ying-yang. And of course I read Hats not wearing where he explains the Treason condition a bit more, and of course, he wrote a PL on expanded confusion.

    Think about this, though. How many times in the history of Scientology were there people who really were in a condition of “Enemy” or “Treason” or “Liability” or even “Danger?” How many people really needed a program like the RPF? How many people really are Suppressive Persons, or Merchants of Chaos?

    And yet, the decks are littered with well-meaning people who have good hearts who are working through one condition or another, or who are inventing overt-sounding things to put on an O/W write-up because of some automaton MAA or senior.

    How many YEARS did it take Ron to clarify the Power condition? And his attitude when he did it was like “hey, morons, can’t you see that Power really is…”. Sorry Ron, you didn’t define it properly at the get-go.

    The thing is, people generally are not that bad off. Most people are good and are trying to do good. Yet, I personally have been assigned Treason a few times, Liability a few times, been declared a “borderline suppressive” once, been on the verge of being beached, and was comm-eved twice. And this is me. I don’t know anyone who hasn’t had some horrendous experience at the hands of an MAA or “Ethics” Officer. Hell, most had several.

    Contrast that with the fact that virtually everyone I know had serious wins and gains from auditing, and most had great wins on course. Which is the senior tech? What works?

    And to top it off, Ron says that people who are ethical welcome ethics, and those that aren’t don’t. So, when you get these egregious BS assignments and protest, it seals the deal that you are some low-classed DB who hates ethics and is therefore suppressive.

    No, sorry. The ethics “tech” as written flat out does not work and deserves to be scrapped in toto. There is some value to be had from reading the philosophy of ethics – but the actual techniques can be scrapped with none the worse. And anyway, the tech and theory of O/W from the early ’60s trumps all ethics tech. What an amazing body of data, that has been tromped into the mud by either stupid or vindictive MAAs, SO members, and self-righteous assholes.

  241. Elizabeth Hamre

    Marildi… I am butting in here.. but have you ever considered that we have simply KNOWING=NESS and that incredible knowledge is always present but we are only become aware or accept its present sometimes other times we ignore that knowledge. and that knowledge is called intuition ?
    Marildi full knowledge is blocked by thousand of counter postulate. We have done that in order to NOT TO KNOW.. knowing everything do spoil the game. Oh I haven’t the clue when…. I have no idea… totally forgotten… cant remember a think… stupid.. idiot … he is so dense that density can be cut with knife … he was born on idiot.. blond hehehe. I was born one too white blond! Marildi more of these concepts are erased since these are traps.. walls holds one within the walls of these beliefs. more of the given up.. given away, denied knowledge is just there.
    When I went to the Mission in 73 They wanted me for staff and I did on IQ test… hehehe it was too low, lower than the frogs arse so I was not accepted.
    18 years ago I had 8 hour IQ test at the University of Washington , after the results come back i was called back THE PROFESSOR SAID: IT IS SO HIGHT IT CANT BE MEASURED, WENT THROUGH THE ROOF.” . Now that should indicate that auditing works, erases the confusing ideas and knowledge is available.

  242. Elizabeth Hamre

    Sc;; great way to summon it up… I read the positive side! Loved the stuff!

  243. Elizabeth Hamre

    TOM…..”Tone 40 Intention” (as Earle Cooley expressed in one of the early IAS videos) also realizes that with it comes Full Responsibility. Which again, is not something most people want to cop to, as it tends to as-is most any game going.””
    But there is more than one game! and what fun one can have playing those!

  244. Elizabeth Hamre

    Ian… ”Auditing can be done unmetered… many processes”” right you are, I have not used the emeter since early 80’s Done very well I might add…

  245. Still Awakening

    Marty. Loved this article. I think it is the best because it really matches the reality of what most of us have been working toward. I know that once we have reached the end goal of the working construct and move beyond that we have no limits. Once we attained a sufficient level of consciousness we will find intuition. I also believe we will find an innate level of ethics and the desire to help other people, other life forms and all else we find in our world.

    We rise up and become more aware and ethical people through consciousness. Not because we are told to, forced to or coerced.toward. There is no need to have our attention driven into anything negative. We can simply observe, act with consciousness and move along in life for the benefit of all.

    When we act in life this way and stop listening to those that give us “must do… can’t do…this is the only…etc.” we will start a ripple effect of our own. Our intention and actions cleanly in tune with our intuition – well, we could just be amazed at the result.

    I enjoyed this vid and think you will also.

    My friends, tis just because we can and desire to. We create our own thoughts, and we can just as easily change those thoughts, to maintain sychronicity with our intuition. Now that is really living the moment and is what I, and probably many others, desired all along.

  246. Thanks very much for this, cris.

    I really liked it,


  247. The conditions are a bit esoteric for most people. Misused as a penalizing tool mostly.

    But policy is simply the agreed upon normal habits and routines.

    The first thing a person would do in a danger condition, is bypass normal habits and routines. That means, whatever policy you have been thinking with, let it go. Forget about it.

    This is when a thinking person would rise up to create new policy.

    How difficult is that? It says it right there in the formula to formulate new policy.

    And you look over there, and you see these O.S.A. staff still beating the same old drum from half a century ago.

    The people leaving the Church, the people fighting for their civil rights, the people speaking up about the abuse, you know what they did? They bypassed normal habits and routines. They naturally had a sense to use this information.

    They are getting attacked by the Church for being able to think with the ethics tech! How backwards is that?

  248. Grasshopper wrote:

    So in the end, Ron was right about a few things: One, justice cannot be trusted in the hands of men. That is demonstrable inside and outside Scientology.

    And yet any justice that has ever been created throughout history has been created by men.

    How can that be if “Man can not be trusted with justice”?

    I believe this was simply another way for Ron to 3rd party you with the rest of your own species, and to divide and conquer you until you would trust and be loyal only to him.

    Ron was severely jealous like that.


  249. singanddanceall

    three cheers, not in the hubbard way. LOL

  250. David Miscavige has been overseeing all of the P.R. for the Church for years. This is what it amounts to. Lindsay Lohan, the poster girl for making things go wrong, gasps as David Letterman jokes to Oprah that he has gotten into Scientology.

  251. “Rose Bud” ……… Yes Grasshopper……………. I can hear him saying that. It is my all time favorite movie. The analogy works.

  252. singanddanceall

    jeepers, hubbards early lectures are just a “construct”,


    maybe even a sci fi story?

  253. Thanks marildi! There are a lot of good posts here lately! I appreciate mine being noticed at all, by comparison!

    I thought I might get a rise out of Erszabet (?)(I never did learn to spell Hunnish), but she is absorbed in that love affair with another poster right now…. 🙂 Good for her!

  254. Well there you are! You came up for air. For you, they could do either or both I’m sure, for real. 🙂

  255. Why all the bickering about the tech. We are all here because we got something from it. Everyone here must have gotten something from the tech or you would not be here sharing your (+ and -) thoughts. Yes? No? Maybe you did not get enough, maybe you were invaled, maybe you got keyed in or…………. and so this pissed you off along the way. Well as they say back here in New York “it’s better to get pissed off than to get pissed on.” Pick yourself up by the boot straps and move on.

    The tech works if applied. So keep applying it. Mass moves, Beings get keyed out, Dynamics (YOU) survive better, more Theta created vs. more insanity (over time).

    I self study (only) and had a great cog tonight and felt that I had to share it. Felt that it was necessary for everyone of you to still keep in mind that the tech started out working, the tech went on working and the tech continues to work today, if you apply it. The COG is: Space =’s Distance =’s Objects =’s Time. Yes it may be the Axioms, in the PDC’s, the books and such and yes many may know that space equals distance and many may have read it elsewhere but until one has the cog (of their own) well, that is the beauty of the TECH and It Still works! I coged that Space =’s Distance =’s Objects =’s Time. I have a persistent F/N. Had to end my study on the beauty of that. Thanks and thanks to LRH for making the workable tech available (for all of us) in the very special way that it is.

  256. Oh, there’s no slightest doubt that the ethics tech was (and is) misused and overused to the max. I’m just not sure whether that’s because there is anything inherently wrong with it IF it were to be used correctly and with no ulterior motives. As a body of tech, I don’t think it was ever given a true test. You may be right about just tossing it, but it seems to me that at times there is a need for some type of ethics tech to help people out with their “situations.” In any case, what I thought about when I read your reply was that possibly the real problem was that there was no systematic, fairly idiot-proof way of putting it into effect – as with the auditing tech. Maybe that was the basic mistake LRH made. Anyway, what did in fact come about you summed up well.

    A datum in the philosophy of ethics that always stuck with me was that any and all out-ethics impulses would eventually be handled with tech (auditing tech). I liked that.

    Btw, I almost wrote “No worries” at the end of my comment to you – and then you started out your reply with “No worries.” Hah! Don’t know if it was intuition on my part or telepathy on yours, but that was fun. 🙂

  257. Awesome comment. Loved the video.

  258. Right, E. I don’t doubt at all what you’re saying about the counter-postulates. It’s interesting that research is presenting more and more evidence that the capability for intuition or knowingness is there, even though the person isn’t aware of it, as you have been saying. To whatever degree, we are the ones stopping ourselves. But we’ll get there. Things are lookin’ up. 😉

  259. spyrosillusionist

    I think I understand 😉

    They say ‘home is where the heart is’

  260. KSW drove me nuts. Isn’t there some ratio in there — that is either stated backwards or something. As far as I could tell, everybody just made it work because it didn’t REALLY work.

    My math skills are horrific but LRH math are just invented out of whole cloth — at least that’s what a friend of mine who was a Phd in math. Strangely he remained a scientologist but would rant about LRH’s invented math and his unscientific universe views.

    So – in 2002 you realized you were in a cult? From various postings of yours — until recently Robert — it seemed like this is something you are only now coming to realize. I get you have been upset with dms brand of scientology but it’s a surprise to hear that you felt LRH wasn’t all that perfect.

    It’s a huge deal IMHO to recognize that LRH isn’t the glorified benevolent monarch he said he was. I have friends who knew him personally and because they were highly validated by LRH are hubbardologists …

    Causes cloudy addled thinking IMHO 🙂

  261. Dear Alanzo, Thank you for sharing the “secrets” of “running out Scientology”. . The word “authority” comes from the word author. What is it exactly you have authored? Have you authored the concept of “running out” something?

    Anyway, I have some startleing news. I know all too well how comfy it can be to get hung up on “the past”. While you are there and presenting yourself as an authority on “running out items”, a new book has hit the streets.

    This is a runaweay best seller and is reffered to as, “hood alchemy”.

    You know, “The hood” ? Maybe not. AAAAAAnyway, I hate to be the one to tell you, but the book was authored by a rap singer, 50 Cents.

    This guy came up from the streets and created his own realities and his own policies. Guess what? They align with Hubbards and the streets are saturated with it.

    I think you may have to up your authority on how to run out 50 Cents. Good luck with that.

  262. Oh shut up David. This has nothing to do with you. We know what your policies are. Lie and deny. Children are illegal. Get your women to hit other women, Cancel all certs on a routine basis. Snuff out any and all potential bright lights.

    This book has nothing to do with you.

  263. O.K., for instance, there is this policy, to not harm other people. You know, rise to a better solution. That is perfectly reasonable. So one night someone breaks into your home with guns or whatever. A home invasion. Seriously? You can’t let that policy go? That is why we have crime scenes. You have to let go of that policy because you are in danger and your kids are too and you have to reach for that AK47 you have tucked away in the pantry for a rainy day and you have to get on top of this danger situation

    People that can not bypass normal habits and routines or let go of the usual poilcy in a danger situation become victims. If it is your policy to be holy, you have to be willing to become very unholy on very short notice.

    Not when you are a Church though. You surrender those rights. Because when you insist on an hourly basis that you are on a higher ground, and you punish everyone in your vicinity who has to go out and live in this world and cope with situations you never have to deal with, you are telling them they do not have a license to bend. These are called “justifiers and ded ex” in Scientogy. So either do you.

    The issue with the Church is, there is no level they are not willing to stoop to. Soldiers all over the place. Weapons with armed police. Prisons on their own grounds with their own police. Perjury, blackmail, extortion, stalking, thye will do whatever they think it takes.

    And then they have to sec check regular citizens at 60 grand a year that have no drama going on whatsoever! Harass auditors and class Xll’s trained by Hubbard. If anyone fights back they are suppressive.

    This is gangster mentality, Nothing holy about this. Meanwhile they stuff their own volunteers to sleep in garages to sleep for touching their own body and lusting for another human being.,

    This is as anti social as it gets. Women are called “sir” or “mister”. How fucking abberated is that? Alter ising females into men. Running a can’t have on all feminie identity. How suppressive is that? David insists on new recruits that look like little boys while he invests millions into voyourism.

    I may have been fucked up when I got into Scientology but not that fucked up.

  264. Hello Marildi, you wonderful person you!
    Not all constructs are bad. In fact, we have all sort of constructs, both physical and mental, which we use everyday and some are very useful, indeed!
    The fact that a philosophic body of knowledge may have some does not preclude the validity of such a body of knowledge but that is obvious even to a chimpanzee.
    Think of math multiplication tables. If we did not learn those, doing mental calculations might take longer and yet these are a construct. We depend on that basic mental exercise to be able to do many things in our daily life.
    Scientology auditing, at lower levels, relies on the contrsuct that the auditor must help the pc locate charged areas by using the e-meter. As constructs go, it actually is a rather complex one, even if it simplicity itself. Actually, because it is such a basically simple construct a lot of people have difficulty in learning to use it — or so it may seem.
    It is most assuredly complicated by a training system that has been overwrought with complexities and uncertainties. I strongly doubt early practitioners had the horrible, grueling time learning to read a meter in the 50’s like they do nowadays, no matter what spiel the COS spins about increased standards of training.
    The point is this all redirects itself to intuition, both on the part of the auditor and the pc.
    I believe this is the point Marty is trying to make (I am willing to be wrong, of course). A truly well-versed auditor knows when he is auditing the right thing on the pc. The pc is in-session. The process makes TA Action. There is no need to have one’s attention on the meter all the time, like in Sec checking, where they make you verify a gazillion buttons because “they know you are lice-ridden sinner and they are going to find out about all your sexual indiscretions!”
    Higher on the Bridge, on the OT Band, depending on the meter is supposed to be a big no-no. Here is the big problem everyone is really talking about. Here you are supposed to be on NOTs; you have gone through OT III and, supposedly, you are free from overwhelm; why in hell are we even bothering with checking stuff on the meter? Let the pc tell you if it charged or not, right? Intuition. Why even bother with an e-meter at all? Who cares about variable sensitivity and read sizes — that’s all stuff designed to make more money by selling e-meters!
    Before I got an education about the OT Levels, I had no idea what was being audited and I would have never been able to make a statement like I did now. Now I know and a lot of things came into perspective about how the church is using this construct to do the exact opposite of what they are preaching. I am assuming you are in the know, too, of course.
    Anyhow, sorry for the rant. Nice talking to you again!

  265. Robert Almblad

    Wow Oracle
    This is quite an education. Much appreciated.

  266. Still Awakening, I appreciate your message and I really enjoyed the video. Thank you.

    As I was reading your message, and as I watched the video, I was reminded of the message in the introduction of the Teachers Manual in A Course In Miracles. You might want to take a look at it (it’s a short read). Here’s the link:

  267. WOW — good catch Oracle!!

    The audience laughs and gasps 🙂

  268. Still Awakening

    Thanks Monte. I have to agree with the thoughts of others I have read who have addressed these same issues. Many words talk around the same quandry – to be, what is being, how to be, why to be and ultimately what we each do with our decisions and actions.

    “A human being is part of a whole-called by us the Universe-a part limited in time and space-We experience our thoughts and feelings-as something separated from the rest-a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness-This delusion is a prison for us restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us-Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty”- A.E

    “What we have in our lives is what we bring into our lives by what we do for others.” C. English

  269. Hi marildi,
    Here is the exact reference from the Buddha:

    “Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox.

    Mind is the forerunner of (all good) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, AFFECTION follows one, even as one’s shadow that never leaves. ”

    Much Metta,
    George M. White

  270. Joe Pendleton

    Thanks for another truly fascinating essay Marty. Just read it and as it’s getting late here in Asia where I live, I haven’t yet had a chance to read many of the other posts.

    I fought the darn MarkV throughout my auditing career (and that is another story all by itself). I would have been much happier auditing without it as I did on Level A. I can only tell you honestly that as a pc, an auditor and as a CS, I mostly experienced wins and case gain from auditing and the way it was constructed. I had myself some great positive cognitions (and of course read thousands of them in pc folders, which was my favorite part of CSing). True, while one certainly got unwanted pains, emotions, sensations and attitudes to run on Dianetics, it didn’t SEEM as if we were focusing on disability. I can only give you my own experience.

    NOW, having said that ….. LRH did “get into something” in the late 60s and into the 70s, that caused him to focus on rundown after rundown after rundown on overts and the evil intentions one has had throughout the track, to the extent that this became the major part of auditing for quite a while (from Expanded Dianetics, Integrity Processing, False Purpose RD, and a number of others, along with a sudden constant use of sec checks, and of course his horrendous RS insanity). One can only guess that maybe when developing the OT levels, LRH decided that beings might be BASICALLY good, but were MUCH more fucked up than he had ever imagined and had in fact been evil or borderline evil for the past bazillions of years and that THIS WAS THE REASON THEY WERE STILL ABERRATED AFTER ALL THEIR AUDITING. I think Ron was ALWAYS looking for the reason why people were still mucho reactive, even though they supposedly no longer had “reactive minds.” He was still searching for the why behind pc’s not becoming “clear” as stated in DMSMH.

  271. Elizabeth Hamre

    Valkov… you got me! you are so right vehicle is just a vehicle. 🙂 but the silly idea we have that we need one to get from one spot to the another.. Some years back I had a realization: all the traveling moving I done in restless search I have criss-crossing this universe zillion times and but I never left! Only the particles moved! The joke is on me! 🙂 Have a lovely day Elliot!

  272. Elizabeth Hamre

    Ian emeters have they place but after awhile one just recognises moving energy masses since they are what we sense, feel see and most of all we recognise them. As one confronts the individual mass one can see every particle and one realises how they were constructed into pictures than labeled added meaning to them than blame them for doing things hehehe.. that bloody hammer hit my finger ogh its hurt! But you know all this!

  273. Elizabeth Hamre

    Ian the gods part was fun to be one.. but I have moved on or the particles shifted?

  274. Elizabeth Hamre

    Ian.. never a fairy… but I sure know them all, I have seen how that little beautiful image is created and why they are in gardens and why they can be seen even with the naked eyes. The spirit on the sunny day collects the light particles and the color particles from the flowers and the spirit uses these shimmering sparkles to fashion a body.. Since the body is made out of the color of the flower each individual fairy have different coloring and size too. Since size depends on the amount of sparkling energy flow the being collect.
    But of course when the sun ray are no longer there the bodies dissolve too But the Fairies these spiritual beings have other abilities beside making body out of shimmering light. They can make music and this music is harmony.. so beautiful that no instrumentation no matter how good is the creation of those sounds will not become the same. The reason for that is Humans are not on the same level with the fairies… a bit slide from that lightness, that beauty, purity. There is a sound which human ears can not pick up.

  275. Elizabeth Hamre

    Ian… I have read this post by now 5 times.. Thank you for writing it. I don’t know if it was similar since I have not fallen on the floor but as I was standing front of the Chart and the Reg. explained it.. I did not understood all the words since my English well forget that part. But as I stood there I felt shift I totally keyed out and that was it. From that moment all other realities moved back become unimportant and total focus was on to achieve the postulate I made front of that chart.. So far it has been a grand adventure and I know it is still just a beginning.
    PS; From that day on the cognitions poured in. reading the words in the dictionary any bulletin. the books or just thinking going over what I have read.. brought on were cognitions.

  276. Thanks. I always learn quite a bit when reading your posts 🙂

  277. christianscientology

    Thank you Marty for your latest thread, it has so much meat in it I have printed it out and read and re-read it several times. It is a full time job keeping up with all the responses so I hope to write more when the rush subsides. In the meantime it was these couple of sentences that particularly caught my attention.

    “It has been said that the sixth sense could be considered conscience and the seventh sense intuition”. And “suggest means for not only recovering conscience but also rising to the level of intuition”.

    Thanks again for a very thought provoking post.


  278. christianscientology

    Thank you Oracle, I enjoyed your post.


  279. Dear Sir,
    That is an extrordiary perspective that I am astonished by.
    I did not really understand that the current church of scientology has stooped to such lows. I have sometimes concerned myself with horrendous perspectives of planetary take over perhaps comendeering the Church of Scientology as a tool.
    I also have considered planetary take over using ‘more than simply scientology’ as precisely as you put it the COS has ‘a can’t have on feminine identity’
    As a side note I have created a space for ‘Thexia’ and ‘Amouria’ a balanced approach to the splendour that we are.
    Perhaps the simple answer is simply to ‘go do something else’ ‘Scientology ? whats that ? ‘ a total –move on, and think nothing further of it.
    Altenativly there is the possibility of ‘taking it with us’ as we ‘clear the planet’… i mean in a possitive sence, as we do our bit to bring about a better world, more enlightened.
    Or perhaps Scientology has simply performed its task, which was to bring you to the point of understanding all that you know of it… and then move on to higher strata of understandings.
    Alternativly it would need stopping as it is apparently creating a lot of upset and needs to be stopped. perhaps the writings of Ron hubbard can be analised for those parts which evidently are useful and cause good and remove or mark as dangerous those things that cause harm.
    It seems that most people on this website have already done that for themselves.
    A blind acceptance of all of Ron Hubbards words is evidently causing harm. That does not mean that Ron hubbard did not share some wonderful wisdoms…. which I consider he did.
    and Ron hubbard I am fairly certain would be and is… a friend of mine.
    for example however I have identified an actual LRH ERROR.
    It is quite difficult to explain the importancy of this datum of the LRH ERROR, as I do not mean ‘a typing error’ or ‘an error of judgement’ which is always up for debate.
    however there is an ERROR in ron hubbards handwriting on OT2
    the significance of which is that Ron Hubbard is PROVABLY…EVIDENTLY not infallable. This infallability of Ron Hubbard is the primary cause of Church of Scientology adherents willing to abandon their own analytical capability. Church adherents will follow any order follow any instruction because they are convinced that there can be NO ERROR in those instructions.
    And yet The LRH ERROR that I speak of is demonstratably clear.
    any Scientologist in or out of the schurch or non-scientologist would confirm the error.
    If you look at the platterns for OT2… if you write them one after another
    in one list, there is a dicotomy from a dicotomy pair logically missing.
    this is because of a simple error (of pagenumbers, turning over pages), and because LRH was rapidly writing he ommited one of the considerations in a dycotomy pair. it takes a few minutes with a pen to discover the error for yourself. (the particular dycotomy itself is not relavent, It is the fact that there is an LRH ERROR that is a matter of important significance.
    (everyone who has ever done OT2 can claim a refund for example, unquestionably)
    that is a considerable datum for the analysis of scientology.

    that is a considerable datum for the analysis of scientology.
    OT2 contains a genuine LRH ERROR in his own writing.
    This LRH ERROR is simply proven.
    on the platern Dychotomies, one dychotomy pair has been left out.
    simply by LRH ERROR. Simply get a piece of paper and tick off all the pairs… being very careful as you cross from one page to another.
    The LRH ERROR will take the average person only a few minutes to find.
    This datum of this ‘LRH ERROR’ holds important significance for the resolution of adherents to the infallability of Ron Hubbard.
    Please will people pass this datum onto others under the heading ‘LRH ERROR’ it may just save a life… or a billion.
    Any comments ?

  281. Some people would say that Justice comes from God or a divine power.

    In any event, I think only Solomon had the justice thing down, and even then, he was planning on chopping a baby in half. I didn’t quote Ron because I am a slave to Ron, or was 3-p’ed by him (interesting use of Scientology to disparage Ron, by the way), but rather pointed out something he said which is demonstrably true. The countries that are decedents of the English model of Justice do pretty well, such as the UK and the US, but there are still a lot of travesties in both countries. Frankly, I believe we are, right now, in the golden age of Justice on this orb. And yet there are still people rotting in jail who shouldn’t be there, or who were killed who shouldn’t have been. This is a fact, whether Ron said it or not.

  282. Roger

    WoW! Tank you very much for that link. I have been wanting to pursue speedreading for some time but never got very far on my own (likely due to discipline issues) but this software really openes the door for me.

    Thanks again!


  283. Brian: a good post except for “The ten commandments (of which Ron in his hate of Christianity broke many times).” I do not believe this is accurate. Are you not posting at all because you got something (at least something) from the tech? It may be fair to say that LRH took leaps and bounds for you and every other Being on the planet to regain consciousness.

  284. Brian: This is good. A devoted one hour each day (posting and sharing of such a study) in defining of words (as above) with others would be insightful for all who cared to participate.

  285. martyrathbun09

    Yes. You have joined Ron in the priesthood of Magik.

  286. martyrathbun09

    The same ole tired scientology trick. ‘Oh, you missed this step.’

  287. Thank you much! You are lovely.

  288. One of the things that makes me a bit reluctant to state my opinion on a number of things is that as I’m thoroughly examining my own reality within scientology and comparing it newly acquired data from other sources, I find myself changing my mind or slightly altering my considerations on things regularly.

    I think it’s kind of a blessing that not very many people take my opinions too seriously since I might change them tomorrow.

    A while back I was tearing apart the policy letter known as KSW 1. Written in 1965, before the invention of OT III, that policy is a rats nest of contradictions.

    “It’s the bank that says the group is all and the individual nothing.”


    “We’re not playing some minor game in Scientology. It isn’t cute or something to do for lack of something better.

    The whole agonized future of this planet, every Man, Woman and Child on it, and your own destiny for the next endless trillions of years depends on what you do here and now with and in Scientology.

    This is a deadly serious activity. And if we miss getting out of the trap now, we may never again have another chance.”

    The first quote encourages self recognition and self determinism.

    The second demands one assume total subjugation to the group effort.

    Contradictions like this are everywhere in the tech. In reflecting on what my viewpoint was then and is now, I realized that I never wholeheartedly agreed with the “whole agonized future,” line. Every time I looked at it I would cringe. When I associated with people who were fervent in accepting it i would cringe.

    So my opinion is that people who hold that quote as truth have completely abandoned themselves and their own intuition to a cult mentality. They become subservient to their seniors, obedient to orders and susceptible to any manner of sociopathic behavior in the name of the greater good.

  289. The capacity for intuitive knowledge is what is ‘educated’ out of children…has been, probably, ever since a ‘patriarchy’ was invested in having compliant cogs for the wheels of government, commerce and church.

  290. It seems to me the problems arise with the attempts to implement a Justice SYSTEM. I see this fundamentally as the same problem that plagues the CoS and Scientology. The core concept, the ‘ideal scene’, may be very good but trying to implement it as a mechanical SYSTEM can lead to a big fail. As when a ‘justice system’ becomes used for political purposes. Then, for instance, rehabilitation efforts can be argued and lobbied against because the prison industry will lose jobs if convicts are rehabbed and recidivism rates are reduced. That’s just one small example.

  291. Marty

    Through doing some speedreading exercise on this “spreeder” site, posted by Roger, I had another realization regarding e-meter reads and their timing, brought up in your previous post.

    I had already seen that I know what I am going to say before I say it. Saying it slows down the communication from being “in the wink of an eye” to being spread out in time by the mechanism of saying the words. Same thing happens to many of us when we “think”, as we often think in words.

    If one were looking for a read on getting the initial concept, it could be expected to likely happen before the person even started to “think.”

    But the same is potentially true of the communication from the auditor to the PC. At some level, and at some point, the auditor would have a concept of what he is going to say, and the intention to communicate it, often before he even starts to speak. If the PC is aware of this, at some level, – at the point that he became aware of this communication, and its content, would be where you would expect to see any “read” on it, totally independent of any words spoken by the auditor, or any “think” by the PC.

    Just some additional thoughts.


  292. All right, Grasshopper.

    So you would qualify Ron’s generalization that “Man can not be trusted with justice” by saying that “Man sometimes can not be trusted with justice”.

    Then that statement begs: why the use of “Man” then? (as in the whole species?)

    So why don’t we say “Some men can not be trusted with justice”?

    And then say “Some men can be trusted with justice.”

    I think this is what you were always saying that you had observed yourself, given your reply to me.

    So you DO disagree with Ron when he generalizes that “Man can not be trusted with justice”.

    Good. I was getting worried about you! (:>)

    By the way, Solomon was a bush leaguer when it came to justice. The Mack Daddy of all men when it comes to justice is Socrates, as reported by Plato, in “The Republic”.

    The whole book is an answer to the question “What is Justice?” and its treatment there would certainly disabuse you of any declarations/generalizations/pronunciamentos by L Ron Hubbard as a philosopher on this and many other subjects.

    I guarantee it.


  293. well Im not sure about the ‘priesthood’ bit or the ‘Magik’ bit or indeed the ‘joined Ron’ bit…. but the rest of it I would probably agree with. :o)
    and the word ‘in’ is deffinatly still bugging me… but anyway I take it all as a complement. thanks! gotta laff eh. Ian

  294. Each individual is a piece of infinity. Any part of infinity is infinite and is infinity itself. Each piece of the whole is the whole.

  295. LOL (to the reply)

    I too think of some important alterations (I’ve no idea about OT 2) but not “it may just save a life… or a billion.” This game is over friend, fortunately. It’s 2014. Attribute it to SCN or whatever you want, but we are not dying. I’m not invalidating anything, it’s just good news. The earth is more at peace than I don’t-know-when –at least some thousands of years. Don’t buy the COS and media dangerology to force you to agree to give monies and work, anymore. Game over. Make your own game.

  296. That’s a great point, Valkov.

    I have lately become aware of all kinds of less than ideal situations that arise from SYSTEMS alone, rather than the people involved or their intentions.

    Any system is a fixed set of conditions which can only output certain types of products. They can only INPUT certain types of products as well.

    So yes, it is even less that “man can not be trusted with justice”. It is whether man’s systems can consistently produce justice with all types of inputs and outputs.

    Place zinger here.


  297. Pehaps fundamentalists are those who would force you to see things their way? If so, it doesn’t matter which belief system one takes, they will use it to make others conform. However, maybe they are just incredibly uncomfortable with uncertainty?

    I’m going through much the same thing, reviewing my indoctrination (“data”) at a startling pace. Personally, I think we are allowed to change as much as we like. This is us finding our own paths, after all, and only each of us can say whether we are making it right for ourselves.

    I recently made it my intention to bring to light all beliefs from the my time in Scientology culture and examine them to see who’s beliefs they are, if they were mine to begin with, and if so, whether they align with who I am or want to be, whether they serve me and if so, if an idea or belief of my own might serve me better. Those beliefs are subtle and pervasive.

    Reaching a point of seeing the good in the experience (at last).

    Good I got out of Scientology:
    – It was an interesting childhood.
    – Abundant real examples of the sunk cost fallacy (escalation of commitment). Given that slick marketing strategies are increasingly being used to get your every last dime these days (think “Free2Play” games market, for instance), this is a good time to be relatively immune or at least experienced.
    – Crush regging/recruiting: I can usually smell these people a mile off.

  298. Hi Monte

    ….”taught us that we were complete in every way, that we are Everything and lack for absolutely nothing, and that our only function was to remember who we really are?”

    That is close to how it was presented in the Scientology Mission I started in. We were told that all gain, up to actual OT, was “negative gain”, in that you were only getting back what you had suppressed, occluded, or re-assigned to some other cause than your own. That Scientology was just “dusting you off”.

    Our ED acted like we were already all incredible beings, but that we just needed a little help in realizing it. Scientology was a tool to help us with that. It was an “indoctrination” that I took to heart, and operated from, both as a PC and in my working with others,throughout my 40 years in Scientology, and to this day.

    It may or may not prove to be “the whole truth and nothing but the truth”, but it has been part of an enlightening experience.


  299. Ian,
    In one of the Class VIII lectures, LRH states that OT II does not have to be done in totality. He says (I’m paraphrasing) to get the person to a big win and then get him/her onto OTIII. That’s the way I did it in 1975.

  300. Hey Mitch, the process is very personal and very simple. I usually don’t go searching for these falsehoods that much. What occurs is a bottlenecking of mental and emotional energy. It happens every couple of years. The state of mind forces the issue. The most important part of the process is being aware that it is presenting itself.

    Consider it an upgrade of awareness and consciousness about real things, real attitudes etc.

    All that is neccessary is self awareness, constructive self criticism, desire for truth and not just a propping up of assumed certainties.

    A deconstructing of beliefs and assumptions once held to be true.

    Each person has their own inner world of mind and emotion as the fodder for this process.

  301. Robert Almblad

    You are so right about me.

    When I decided to look without “thought stopping myself” I was able to take off the rose colored glasses that forced me to become a Hubbard apologist.

    I think this transition or graduation from L Ron Hubbard and Scientology is something that others who are “out” will eventually experience too, if they continue to study.

    Studying other books mentioned by Marty and others, opened up a new world of research.

    Thanks for noticing the change. I am now a 1st degree graduate of LRH and Scientology and I am free to think and study what other people have to say. There is a lot to learn, I must say.

  302. The Oracle authored:

    This guy came up from the streets and created his own realities and his own policies. Guess what? They align with Hubbards and the streets are saturated with it.

    I think you may have to up your authority on how to run out 50 Cents. Good luck with that.

    I’m trying and trying and I just don’t understand what your message is to me.

    Are you saying that Curtis Jackson is a Scientologist and “the streets” is too?


  303. “….. at the end of the day is the effort worth the cost in scientology? ”
    I don’t know Marty. I’m still pondering this. I figure until I can really get back to square one (me) I probably won’t know. Over the last 4 or 5 years I’ve uncovered an extreme amount of memories, suppressed grief over losing loved ones, suppressed wins blocked by invalidation from others and myself. I’m just working to keep a balance between life and thought and learning so I can move forward. I am still back a few articles as a matter of fact in an attempt to fully understand what you are saying. I had to print ‘Awakening from Scientology’ forward so I can read at my leisure with my dictionary and demo kit 🙂
    Your articles, recommended reading and the many commenters comments help tremendously to the way out of this trap and I’m quiet sure when that is accomplished I will know exactly how I got in 🙂 Then I can move forward to some other stuff I want to do like where I started ~ I wanted only to help others. I really didn’t give a damn if it was 24/7 and 50$ a week etc. IF I had been only helping 🙂 Oh well I didn’t damage to much or did I? I will take as long as it takes but my questions one for one get answered at some point. Thanks for asking your readers this question.

  304. Great post, LDW –

    I’ve always found that spotting LRH’s contradiction is one of the most therapeutic things any person could do who has been involved in Scientology.

    I remember when it first started happening to me. It just wouldn’t quit! I started seeing them everywhere. I couldn’t pick up anything by him without busting out laughing at all the contradictions.

    What was astonishing to me is that I had never seen them before.

    So the process of spotting LRH’s contradictions continues for a while and then there is an “EP” which is quite freeing.

    I won’t feed it to you.

    Return to study….

    Alanzo (:>)

  305. Oh, no I meant that the Cos has gone off its rails… and could well go further to considering that human bodies on this planet are in the way of clearing them and may end up pushing stupid buttons like bombs themselves! of course that seems crazy and no one would think like that…. mmmmmm.
    I mean the Cos is looking like a power maniac world take over thing to me…. men with power… you think a scientologist would pick up a gun and shoot if miscavage said it was mankinds only hope?
    in the name of religion… what people killing… no could never happen..mmmmmm.

    And so, -if there is a battle for minds, then I give you a huge tool to deconstruct Scientology… for those in and those out. But I dont think you or anyone else can show me a greater clearer LRH ERROR.
    not in his oppinion or a simle typing error, or even an error in reasoning…
    no… this is far more blunt.

    ah but what the heck sometimes its like talking to a fish… trying to get yer understandings accross…. yes a gentle jibe… haha :o) Ian

  306. According to this animated map, for the past 70 or so years, Europe has been experiencing it’s most stable (in terms of borders) times compared to what it had been doing before, during a period of a 1000 years. (I hope my English is correct. That was too complex for me to write). I think it’s a good indication…

    The war in Syria and elsewhere are minor compared to what had been going on a while ago. Besides, there had been a war in Syria before the war, unless you call a harsh dictatorship to be peace.

  307. Sorry for the too many separate messages.

    * I mean to say ‘among it’s most stable (in terms of borders) time. As It’s a little hard to calculate with precision.

    Also, Europe is the weirdest place on earth to have peace, as it is the most (if not the most, then certainly among the most) culturaly and racially diverse chunk of land —just way too many varieties. Don’t compare the EU to the USA. Even if Europe ever gets united as one, it wont be like the USA.

  308. No Mitch, I am not posting because I got massive gain from the tech. My focus, if you have been reading these posts, is to be a cheerleader for the resuscitating of the suppressed capacity to be critical of LRH.

    Also the idea that the source of this mess is because of Ron’s paramilitary teaching and his immorality: paying homage to no higher dictates of decency other than “the greatest good”.

    That he worked hard for world peace and the freedom of us all does not present itself as true when:

    1) he hit on women on the Apollo then offloaded them when he was done
    2) told us he doesn’t get any money while sending millions in suit cases to over seas banks
    3) telling us he knows about life and the dynamics when one son commits suicide because dad is to much, betrays Mary Sue to save his own ass, one son thinks dad is a Satanist, all X wives are terrified of him, lies to his daughter Alexis that he is not the dad her mom is a hussy.
    4) lies consistently through out his life about himself
    5) third partied all other spiritual paths and made himself out to be a messiah

    I believe it is essential to dethrone the PR image of LRH that he carefully created with lies and his PR machine.

    The real world will not allow ex or independent scientologists to sweep under the rug, the real story behind the well doctored PR of LRH.

    My suggestion is to read 3 books if you are interested:

    1) Bare Faced Messiah (a decent biography of Ron’s minus the BS of him riding broncos while still in the womb) 

    2) Madman or Messiah (written by a mission holder and a first hand account on how mankind’s best friend ruined the lives of many good Scientologist. The description of the takedown of the missions will make your skin crawl and create a deep desire to take a shower. All orchestrated and approved of my the man you consider working for us)

    3) Piece of the Blue Sky ( Jon Atacks book is standard fare for those who desire to know)

    I am for religious freedom. Scientologists are free to be Scientologists.

    My posting has always been towards those moving on from Scientology. Even when it was not popular to do so. 

    What I ask people to do regarding criticism if LRH, I do to myself. Very liberating this truth stuff!

  309. Flavian, great that you have joined in!

    I would definitely agree with you about constructs being everywhere. As for the OT levels, I haven’t done them but I did get some auditing from an Independent auditor in which the same type of “entity” was addressed as is done in the OT levels. He used the meter in basically the same way it is used in lower level auditing – as a tool to guide both pc and auditor. That is also the way it’s supposed to be used in the OT levels, according to my reading of the materials (although the CoS has added various arbitraries to metering and to other aspects of the OT levels tech, thus corrupting it).

    In other words, the OT level auditing I got seemed essentially no different from auditing any type of mass – which is to say, auditing that gets the pc to look at and “as-is” (LRH’s construct there) whatever he spots that is capable of impinging on his thoughts and influencing his actions.

    What I see as the basic purpose of the OT levels is the same as the lower levels – that the pc become less other-determined, more self-determined. But it also includes the additional “ability gained” of learning (kind of drilling it) telepathic communication. That includes both sending and receiving telepathically.

    So to me, the OT levels is where presentiment or so-called psychic abilities are developed directly, or further developed if the pc has achieved those abilities already. This would include intuition, which I see as simply theta (non-physical) perception of “energies” that are not perceivable through physical universe means. JMO – thus far.

    Nice talking to you again too. 🙂

  310. Hi George,

    That’s a very nice Buddha quote. LRH basically said the same thing, but it seems to me now that his construct wasn’t as close to the actuality as the Buddha’s – which I’d say was closer to what physicists are now theorizing, starting with Einstein. Here’s LRH’s version of it from 8-80, which is more metaphorical than the Buddha’s:

    “One believes he can use any facsimile he has ever received. He has been hurt. He uses the facsimile of being hurt to hurt another. But since one survives as well as everything else survives, to hurt another is wrong. One regrets the injury, seeking to turn back time (which is regret). Thus the facsimile he used becomes interlocked with his facsimile of trying to use it and both facsimiles ‘hang up’ and travel with present time. One even gets the PAIN he seeks to inflict on another, this being the action against him of the facsimile he sought to give, by action, to another. It startles the preclear, when run through a boyhood fight, wherein he hit another boy in the eye, to feel the pain in his own eye at the instant of the blow. And so it is with all inflicted injuries.

    “This is a simple matter of the interaction of the pictures of energy.”

    Btw, George, I started getting an understanding of karma from some of your posts. 😉

    Much Metta,

  311. I know, so many good posts.

    Yes, Elizabeth met her OT match. Those “love letters” were great!

  312. A holographic universe?

    Still Awakening, my comment a little further down should have come under your post above – both your comment and the video were moving. I think the video should be shown to all the kids in school – and “kids” of all ages, for that matter. It would inspire just about anybody!

  313. Robert Almblad

    I can’t agree more for myself on both counts. 1) I am studying and changing, so don’t hold me to what I say because I haven’t had a chance to study, learn and think for myself for decades and so I am still learning and 2) KSW is made of granite and re-enforced concrete that you have chop your way out…. it just takes some time to unravel the mess that PL created.

    I think this PL effectively stopped some of the best “minds” on earth in order to further LRH’s “great conquest” of earth, which failed in his own words near his death.

    Earlier, LRH said this technology (auditing/training) was normally used to enslave, but it didn’t have to be that way (I am paraphrasing) But today I notice that he did not categorically deny that this was what was happening in Scientology.

    He said (paraphrasing again) that some OT’s might try to get together and and knock over the organizational structure he set up in Scientology, but they would have to come back to the Scn organization to get certified as auditors, so in that way he had the whole technology locked up. Something like that.

    Anyway, thanks for your views Les. It’s always a pleasure. And, I am always learning too. Thank GOD for the internet and the free flow of information.

  314. The above was meant for Still Awakening’s post. But I agree with windhorse that Oracle’s posted video was a good catch.

  315. I agree with you, Aurora. It’s as if there were a conspiracy. 😉 Ah well, I think the force is with us in this game.

  316. Hey WH! How are you?

    You know, I think that for me, I always had an insouciance filter, or, as what one MAA said I had, a “cavalier attitude.” He had me look it up. I read the definition, and said to him “Yeah? So what?”

    I was probably twelve or thirteen when I read KSW for the first time. I had to look up “Self abnegation” and I wondered what Ron had against democracy. And when he said “We’d rather have you dead than incapable,” I thought the 1973 equivalent of “WTF?” I think it was “ooooh-kay.”

    I came from a mission that was very independent, and very skilled in the ways of real Scientology. The mission holders were both Class VIII (trained on the ship, and told Ron “No way” when they were invited to join the SO). So, by dint of my being around that mission, I developed a wariness toward the SO and a love of training that held me in good stead, and I also developed a good foundation of real Scientology.

    Since I was a young unencumbered male I was regularly earmarked for recruitment, when these recruiters would try like mad to get me to freaking realize the the best possible thing for me to do in the whole universe was to join the SO. They quoted LRH: “Joining the Sea Org is the sensible thing to do.” I heard that in 1976, first time (of many). My wariness developed into an incredible distain for and complete disrespect for the Sea Org, which I would occasionally voice, but usually didn’t. The SO was obviously a commie-style cult. I didn’t know why Ron decided to do it. I viewed every single person in the SO as being cussing crazy for signing that idiotic contract. People talk about “The Hole.” The whole cussing SO was the hole. People would join the SO, and bam, they are done. Some would route out a few years later, and we’d welcome them back to life.

    Here’s the thing: To me, Scientology is strictly auditing, and training to be an auditor, or using auditor training techniques (like the TRs) to live better. And that is it. That is all it is to me.

    The Sea Org is not Scientology. The GO was not Scientology. Green on White is not Scientology. Flag Orders certainly are not Scientology.

    This filter I had was basically “This is Scientology,” “This is not Scientology.” The CMO and hair brained schemes, not Scientology. The Flag Bureaux and reg cycles that had to close at Thursday at 2? Not Scientology. Doing TRs? Scientology. Going into session as either PC or auditor? Scientology. That’s it.

    Sure the people who did these “not Scientology” things called themselves Scientologists, but the things they were doing were not Scientology.

    My cavalier attitude and distain for idiots in naval outfits kept me focussed on what worked for me. Regardless of Ron’s editorializing on KSW, the real core of the PL made sense to me, because I could see this crap happening – people not learning how to meter and then saying the meter didn’t work. People not doing TRs and then abandoning PCs in session. People misreading some PL or another and blanket-applying some stupid off-hand comment Ron said as Gospel. People thinking R2-45 was anything other than a joke.

    I guess I am saying this because in the last four years that I have been effectively exterior to the church, I came to realize that the label “Scientology” encompasses all the shit I hated, and long dismissed. At least is does to most people who were badly affected by it. So, when some idiot recruiter recruits bums from skid row into the Sea Org, that’s Scientology. When some idiots gang-bang sec-check someone, that is Scientology. When some guy carts a pregnant SO member to Planned Parenthood to get some Dev-T resolved, that’s Scientology. When fruitcakes with cameras on their beans harass Marty and Mosey – that’s Scientology. Lying about stats, crush-regging, all that shit: Scientology.

    Here’s the thing that pisses me off. It’s not. Yet it is. And what really pisses me off is that what I knew as “Scientology” no longer exists. That really is too bad.

  317. Hi Les

    Yes…. that whole thing about…

    “One of the things that makes me a bit reluctant to state my opinion on a number of things is that as I’m thoroughly examining my own reality within scientology and comparing it newly acquired data from other sources, I find myself changing my mind or slightly altering my considerations on things regularly.

    I think it’s kind of a blessing that not very many people take my opinions too seriously since I might change them tomorrow.”
    Well, I often feel that I am in the same boat. This is an exercise in “fluid” thinking. It seems that if we are really wanting to “grow” as beings we need to be willing to change personally, and to allow others to do the same.

    It is just as important to not fixate others on their pasts, as it is to not fixate on one’s own.

    My current mantra is “Be willing to experience anything.”


  318. Thanks for that interesting dialog. I think I came from a different direction with a different track. There is a lot of space out there. But I’ve been around here for quite a while. The time people think with here is all wrong. This planet at one point, had a calendar in the years of the 4000’s at one time. I think it went up to the year 4092.

  319. Or 4019. One of those.

  320. There was an earlier history, an earlier everything.

  321. Mitch, you will find people on this blog praising the tech and questioning it. Very different from the tyranny of thought, whereby people are punished for thinking unapproved thoughts.

  322. Dig it. I never bought into it either. My attitude was “Aw, go on!”

    The other contradiction is the very basic datum: You can’t kill a thetan. So, how come if you can’t kill a thetan that we are all of a sudden subject to cinders and agonizing futures and all that?

    It really is weird that people who supposedly had auditing and supposedly had whole-track experiences would buy into this “You will lose your eternity” BS. And, even weirder that no matter how forcefully Ron put it, the church is currently pushing it even harder.

    And another irony/contradiction, to your point about sociopathic behavior: The tech is quite clear on the mechanics of O/W and why you shouldn’t commit overts, should do the right thing, and have clean hands to have a happy life. And yet, the church condones and performs the most amazingly destructive and sociopathic things, all in the name of preserving their future, a future they will not have because the mechanics of what they are doing (Karma) will prevent them from ever getting there. It is crazy.

    As the Chambers Brothers said: “There are things to realize.”

  323. People see Las Vegas as a “new town”. This used to be the bottom of an ocean floor. Not by me, that is fact evidenced by geography. I like living on the ocean floor. The ocean is gone from here. But I’m still here. 🙂

  324. One thing that annoyed me about the Scientology culture is the bad rap always given to Earth and the Earth people. It it like someone moving into your neighborhood and bitching about how bad it all is. Most people really love this planet and the people on it. The animals, the ocean, the sunsets. The seasons, the stars. This is a planet full of beautiful magic. A planet for romantics, magicians, artists. It is naturally musical! With the sounds I mean, there is built in music here! The sound of the ocean, the rain, the birds and wind. I don’t feel any need to apologize about this place or the people here. Don’t like it? Go find some where else to live.

  325. By the way, that drought on the Colorado River? It is not going away any time soon. If you are parked in a state that is dependent upon the Colorado River, you might want to think about relocating. If you are thinking about buying a place and settling down, choose a place that is not dependent on the Colorado River. If you own real estate and you are dependent on this water supply, you might want to move that piece of property while it is still worth something.

  326. Brian: I got what you said. Thanks for sharing.

    You can say all of what you are saying about anyone. So what. Even if some of it is true does it really matter regarding the validity and value of the tech? Do you dislike the person that much? Look at what he contributed. With good must come some bad. I never heard LRH claim himself to be a saint.

    You should first ask yourself: do I believe auditing works? My only concern for you is: if you did make it up the bridge to OT or if you do solo audit or if you just train, how can you possibly keep any gains thinking the way you do? It won’t work. Don’t tell me that you graduated because reactive banks can be mocked up all over again.

    Did LRH ever say he was perfect? Are you thinking along the lines that LRH never created overts along his dynamics? Haven’t we all?

    All I can say is I know auditing makes people better. What else is out there that surpasses the workability of the tech Brian? Name something. What else is out there that yields case gain. This is what it is all about: Moving Mass, Obliterating Case, Making others Better if they want it, Having a Saner World. Yes I still believe it is still all possible.

    I try (I said try) to do at least one thing everyday (if I can) that is beneficial along the dynamics. Not only mine. Hey is this not a start?

  327. Spyros, that animated map is awesome.

  328. Marildi wrote:

    Oh, there’s no slightest doubt that the ethics tech was (and is) misused and overused to the max. I’m just not sure whether that’s because there is anything inherently wrong with it IF it were to be used correctly and with no ulterior motives. As a body of tech, I don’t think it was ever given a true test. You may be right about just tossing it, but it seems to me that at times there is a need for some type of ethics tech to help people out with their “situations.”

    The thing that was good about the ethics conditions formulas was that they might serve as a structured analysis of problems.

    What I mean by that is that you have a problem and so you need a structured, disciplined, non-emotional way to break out the pieces of the problem into their appropriate parts (analysis), and to assess the value of those parts in a way that helps to reveal a solution without the human weaknesses that usually block their emergence.

    The ethics conditions offered Scientologists a way to sort out their problems without “HE&R”entering into the solution.

    But there are other ways to analyze problems in a structured way.

    The best I’ve seen is a group of 14 tools offered by a former CIA analyst named Morgan Jones who wrote a book called “The Thinker’s Toolkit”.

    The Thinker’s Toolkit offers structured analysis techniques such as “Convergent and Divergent thinking” (Brainstorming – but much more in-depth descriptions) and “Cost Benefit Analyses” (in great, applicable detail). Plus many more.

    The idea that existence has conditions and that they follow each other up a scale of conditions is highly debatable. Whether “Danger” as a condition of existence and “Affluence” is “higher or lower” than each other in the broad scheme of things very debatable, even highly questionable.

    So dropping all that, there ARE tools that can be used to provide a structured analysis of problems that were designed to eliminate HE&R, and they had nothing to do with Scientology.

    Check em out:


  329. Grasshopper said:

    ” My cavalier attitude and distain for idiots in naval outfits kept me focused on what worked for me.”

    Well, you just earned a lot of credits with me my friend.

    White Scientology was the flypaper set up to catch the very best, people like you.

    Good people, particularly auditors, kept trying to hold onto and assert only the tech and ONLY the tech, and the trap door slammed shut the more you tried.

    I always recognized how humane and caring auditors were. I never forgot that. I was very touched when I first came in, particularly by the people from 1960-1970, I think they were the smartest and most compassionate of Scientology. Thanks for all you have done.

    “Here’s the thing that pisses me off. It’s not. Yet it is. And what really pisses me off is that what I knew as “Scientology” no longer exists. That really is too bad.”

    The trick, is to keep looking at both items, without denying or holding to either one, until both blow, and you will end up with something different but much, much better and usable. At least I hope so.

  330. Robert — I’m delighted for you!!

    Personally what I’ve found on this journey out if that the underlying reason(s) why I sought scientology in the first place were/are still there. I’m not talking about the lofty 60’s ideal of saving the world, not trusting anyone over 30 or being against the establishment.

    I’m talking about my OWN personal reasons I was bouncing around LA – far from my family, my upbringing and university.

    Not ALL my friends got into scientology. As a matter of fact NONE of them did. And while it’s very romantic to say I got involved because I “knew” this was THE way to achieve my lofty goals … the truth really is … I was lost.

    I started not that long ago to see — I got involved because I was one very lost young girl. And Hubbard lured many of us into the spider’s web.

    Better Hubbard than Manson of course — but a cult nonetheless.

    Anyway — that is my experience. That now – once finally almost sometimes occasionally free from the mind-numbing of scientology, the glory days of my SO career, followed by another highly dedicated years of being an active public scientologist — I’m FINALLY able to dig deep to see … YIKES … I’ve got a bunch of unresolved personal traumatic experiences which color my world AND are so deeply engrained I can’t even see them EXCEPT by seeing who/what I bring into my life — mirrors of myself.

    Many who comment will say — oh, that’s not me. I got into scientology because I have always sought TRUTH and knew this was the way.

    They should remember that the “getting in part” was always based PER HUBBARD on finding the ruin.

    Pardon this extensively long response. Basically I’m thrilled for you. What I’ve found the road out and towards a fulfilled life starts at this point …

    May we all experience growth —


  331. Thank you, Miss Oracle,
    for geing so polite. Our opinions and observations do not always intersect, but my respect and love follows you always.

    I was talking about a time much longer ago than that.

    I recall a time when I was having fun learning about inertia and rhythms. I would make a cylinder or tube, and bounce and roll a ball around and back and forth inside it. I wasn’t using anything like hands to move things around.

    Imagine there is a tube inside your head going from ear to ear. now close your eyes and imagine there is a BB in the tube. Think what it would be like to shake your head and make the BB bounce back and forth and spin around inside the tube. You can shake your head in such a way as to get a rhythm going so the BB goes faster and faster with less and less shaking of the tube. Get creative and you can make the BB circle in the tube a certain number of times with each bounce.

    Now imagine, after mastering these rhythms, that you put 2 BBs in the tube and make them bounce around each other. Now try to control the BBs simultaneously yet independently. Now make the BBs compete and race against each other. But to do this, the BBs can’t know what the other is doing. Try to be pan determined like the old saying goes, “Playing both sides of chess without cheating.” (This is actually the opposite of Pan Determined, in effect, playing one side against the other).

    Come back into present time. What kind of conflicts, opinions, decisions, confusions etc. etc. etc. could you form after doing this for a couple of hundred years or so.

    How we played little games like this and the fixed opinions gained and retained can be the most difficult to overcome and most rewarding to discover. The little decisions made during fun and interesting times like this is what made us what we are, or so we think.

    This incident formed a myriad of fixed opinions and ways of interacting with myself and others, that dictated many of my likes and dislikes.
    For me. There are thousands of incidents, games, exercises like this in which we learned to create, handle, and yes, be controlled by objects and energies. Understanding of, and knowledge of these forgotten thoughts can be a relief in the extreme. There are many many details to this one game.
    My observations.
    Thank you for your patience.

  332. The goal? Freedom from your own fixed, forgotten thoughts and behavior, with knowledge. A worthwhile and attainable goal.

  333. All opinions, to me, are worthwhile as long as they include an effort to learn and a willingness to look. That is my opinion.

    You, Brian have been a busy guy, One of the very few things that still bother me are those who want to sit on their fanny and coerce others to do the same. But even those can be learned from through negative knowledge; seeing what not to do.

  334. The earth really is a pretty place. Lots of beauty and so many different things to do and people to meet.

    Before engineering, I did electrical work. I was one of the few who actually enjoyed residential repairs and installations. Would meet so many nice and interesting folks. They would often chat, offer me a sandwich or a glass of iced tea. I miss that actually.

    Once one understands the pitfalls, one can really enjoy the adventures.

  335. “If you are parked in a state that is dependent upon the Colorado River,”
    Thanks TO. I’m glad where ever I go I take 60 gals water with me. The gas to run my genny is what I worry about. But then I depend on the farmers to sell halfway decent fruits and veggies….. There is no way I could farm enough on my roof … or could I? Hummm?

  336. Joe Pendleton

    But what did the Buddha say to do if you feel incapable of speaking or acting with a pure mind? Or if you cannot even conceive of a pure mind? LRH postulated a method which explained what got in a person’s way in attaining the pure mind and how to get rid of it. And I think the straightfowardness of that was a major part of the appeal of Scientology.

  337. I can see this is a concern for you. I am always curious. Tell me more;

    You may also want to subscribe to the Freezone forum, there are a lot of techies and old timers over there. Lots of resources for materials, books etc. Mostly older people that have been around in Scientology 40 to 50 years. Doing their own things with the Scientology for about as long too.
    A lot of old time class Vl’s and classVlll’s. No fundamentalists. An OSA plant sock puppet once in a while but everyone knows who it is now so that game is more or less over.

    Since Marty, Mike and Karen have been taking all of the heat it has been really peaceful over there. You might even find some people you know.

    To subscribe:

  338. Actually, magicians have little regard for priests as a rule. They present themselves as having magical capabilities they seldom posses. They are into ceremonial magic like David Miscavige. The self proclaimed “religious leader”. Although he has sidetracked into being a professional narrator / voice over actor.

    But anyway, Marty, you are one of the most magical people on this landscape. Always making the impossible, possible. That is real magic. Creating your own reality. A different reality.

    Just sent you a book. Won’t share it here. The less that ceremonial magician David Miscavige knows, the better. What a charlatan.

    1.a person falsely claiming to have a special knowledge or skill; a fraud.
    synonyms: quack, sham, fraud, fake, impostor, hoaxer, cheat, deceiver, double-dealer, swindler, fraudster, mountebank; informal: phony, shark, con man, con artist, scam artist, flimflammer, bunco artist, snake oil salesman; confidence man/woman
    “the shallow promise of a charlatan selling snake oil”

    That man has never cleared another human being in his life.He couldn’t stop himself from physically abusing his P.C. on his internship. He C/Sed a P.C. at the Flag Land Base having no training whatsoever as a C/S. She died as a result and this created one of the biggest P.R. flaps in the history of Scientology. Now he is selling RPF repair as “Super Power” to the most successful people on the planet. Like they have a problem. No common sense. Just a pimp from Philly.

  339. Oh yeah David, you are real macho! Hiding behind your accusers X wives. Hiding behind women. How macho! Hiding behind your attorneys spending MILLIONS on attorneys because you can not confront a courtroom full of “wogs” in Texas! So macho! Sending a cancer patient to my home to harass me instead of coming yourself! How macho does it get! Body guards, attacking people not allowed to fight back,

    Don Larsen had the balls. He was the first whistle blower. He came clean. He formulated new policy. His OWN. I wonder how “macho” he thinks you are now? Probably sees you for the hustler you really are. Everyone on the planet except those not allowed to read, can see what a little coward you really are.

    Hey Don, it would be great to see you post something here. Wow, you could even be valuable as a witness. You have seen David’s purposes towards criminality, down on the streets taking matters into his own hands. He could go to San Francisco in a limo with a back up crew to kick ass but he can’t go to Texas and set matters straight in a court of law?

    Oh yeah, this man is real macho. When he has a back up crew and he has to face someone who is not allowed to fight back! Otherwise he goes into HIDING. That is tone level now, HIDING. Lou sends his texts. He uses someone else’s name to lie to the media. He is in HIDING on the tone scale.

    That is not macho. That is so far below fear, a long drop.

    NOW everybody knows. Marty’s wife is on the front lines, while David spends millions and throws the Church under the bus in an effort not to confront her!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pleading to the courts to go after the Church and leave him alone!

    Oh yeah, he is a real macho man.

  340. I have noticed that you don’t have a blog David. You do not post here to clear up one fucking thing or confront one fucking person. You do not care about any of the people with personal losses or concerns. You have not reached out to one of them to help or correct. Your little soldiers just shoot, no questions asked. To hell with facing the courts, you can’t even come over and confront another Scientologist! That is a serious red flag.
    Marty has been out here confronting people for YEARS while YOU hide. Like a pathetic little waif.

  341. Yeah, David thought when he went after those IRS agents personally, they were going to take a bullet and lay down. Because he CLEARLY has NO AWARENESS of consequences, now his personal income tax returns for the last ten years are being cycled all over the Internet. This guy makes enemies for the Church faster than they can make clears.

  342. Hiya Maurice,
    im not really talking about the ot levels… they are okay… and yes i would recommend them… its more a concern about people ‘stuck’ in the cos… and what it would take to educate people before they go in…or someway of returning their analytical capability rather than relying on Ron Hubbards tech as being infallable. Where in fact there is a genuine LRH ERROR that the Cos CANNOT CORRECT !!!! that is VERY IMPORTANT… no other error is like this… miscavage can change any policy… but he cannot REWRITE LRH’s HANDWRITING!!!
    THUS …. the COS cannot deliver above OT2!!!!
    it just plain LOGIC!…. and so that is how the COS can be litterally de-contructed, unless it sorts itself out… which does not seem likely.

  343. One thing I have noticed, is that there are people who get into Scientology because they want someone else to think for them. To figure it out for them. For a while. Then they get up to wanting to think for themselves. Which is good, But they resent the fact that they bought into someone else’s think then. They want to knock out that bridge like a teenager comes to hate doting parents. It is child like on some level. I think it is good when people begin to create their own realities and think for themselves. I am always aware of the thousands of generations it took before me to have a life. The women who survived through out this evolution. Who bought children into this world and carried them before they could walk on their own. I have noticed women for the most part are more merciful about their experiences with Scientology. The men, when stepping out of the womb, seem to go into an automatic pissing contest.

  344. Does everyone know that the OT levels are available in full… in Ron Hubbards Handwriting for free download. Both OLD and NEW OT levels.
    simply google it.

  345. It is not that the Church didn’t allow children. Children outlawed happened under David’s watch. HE didn’t allow children. Some of the Int execs came to the Flag Land Base to do an inspection and discovered the nursery was a horror show. They outlawed children. They had done inspections all over the world to discover horror shows, and renovated. But not for the children. They did not see them as any investment. They didn’t even invest in killing them off, the staff that went for abortions had the state pay for it. Children were more or less declared S.P.’s. Harm attack and suppress them. Disconnect from them.

    If the Sea Org has injustice to bear, (and God knows it is rotting in it) this stands in the forefront. Most of these Highly qualified Int exec staff “qualified” to be at the Int base are fucking serial killers.

  346. although may i suggest that the LRH ERROR is noted in his handwriting on OT 2, one dycotomy pair is missing… spot it for yourself. the Cos cannot correct this! THUS.. ‘The COS CANNOT deliver OT2, as Ron hubbard intended.’ download the OT levels (just google them) and see for yourself…
    >>The COS cannot correct this LRH ERROR, it his handwriting!<<
    Miscavage is utterly undone by this. He is gonna go mental when he sees it… I guarentee that it has not been seen before!

  347. David transforms women into serial killers, gangsters, sadists, misters, little boys and little men, pirates, criminals, pathological liars, and beggars.

    He degrades the people around him. All under the mask of religion and love for L. Ron Hubbard. And he has copies.

  348. This sounds like a Beverly Hills socialite shopping at Saks Fifth Avenue. “But this Misook fabric does not feel the same as the St. John’s collection”.

    Why would you come on here to discount Mike Rinder? He is not a copy of anyone else. His ability to thin slice through propaganda is unparalleled. He spent decades working to make this world a better place with no regard for himself. And full regard for people like you.

    You are not at the theater and you have a free seat. You are still whining and complaining. If you were standing in front of me and made a comment like this I would have slapped you hard.

  349. Trying to use Marty to tear down Mike. You think we are dummies? What is your investment in this? You sound like Jim Logan gone more covert.

  350. Not that I really think that is possible.

  351. spyrosillusionist

    ” and could well go further to considering that human bodies on this planet are in the way of clearing them and may end up pushing stupid buttons like bombs themselves!”

    lol that’s a funny (contradictory) mock up.

    The COS is shrinking, so they wont get the chance to become an official religion of some country, so that wont happen either.

    I’m just declaring ignorance with regards to the OT2 out-tech you pointed out –I’m not evaluating it. Sorry, I just don’t know.

    The most blatant out-tech I have noticed is that ARC (which includes love, yes), KRC (which includes not blaming/fighting others), self-determinism, pan determinism, the basic concepts of the axioms, and generally the basics of SCN are viewed in a reverse manner by the average, if they think they should destroy whomever attacks them, destroy psychiatry, force (with guilts and PRish semi-lies) people to ‘donate’ money and work, inhibit people helping other people (you just don’t audit -let say- for free as a member of the COS) and generally postulate trouble into existence. Who creates trouble? Like it or not, as per LRH too, ‘you’ only experience your own postulates. I’d like to see a member of the Church to come here and say something like “I’m no longer creating attacks to my group from you. Sorry I blamed you before. I was creating my own trouble.” And I would like to see something similar on behalf of out-of-the-COS Scientologists towards the COS too. I myself would be willing to go and shake hands and put the past overt/motivators in the past too –without that meaning that I would join back. And I would like to be heard and not automativaly be considered -in one way or another- ‘bad’ because I disagree with something. So much for fighting those SPs ‘out there’. 😛

  352. What a total P.R. flap this is going to be.

  353. Hi Alonzo.
    The tango played between Emergency and Affluence always made perfect sense to me. So simple, so workable. The lower conditions, if the underlying factors are not found first, not so much. When the lower conditions seem nebulous and ethereal, they are. When it occurs to you to think, “What the hell am I doing here”, then that is the right condition for you at that time. Forced conditions just don’t work. Practically any ‘tech’ is workable and beneficial when it is understood and done at the right time.

  354. windhorse, I was born in, and yet I find myself with perhaps a similar situation, digging into trauma, post-traumatic growth, positive psychology and trying to achieve well-being.

    I once shared a quote here attributed to Theodore Sturgeon: It doesn’t matter what you write, what you believe will shine through.

    It seems to me I would rephrase that to say “It doesn’t matter what you say, do, how you act, what you own, etc., what you believe will ultimately shine through.”

    Right now I’m trying to read the mirrors that surround me and understand what they are saying to me. It’s like trying to understand my own private bubble from the outside while still being inside. It is a remarkable journey. I know I’ll be fine.

  355. MR I invite you to be less cryptic in your criticism. Give it a go!

  356. spyrosillusionist

    Good that you mentioned analytical thinking. I wanted to write this, not to you but in general. After I had read DMSMH, been to school, talked with people in my life, defined ‘clever, ‘smart’, ‘wise’, I had put much stress on analysis, logic. Logic is a good level of thinking if you want to be driven to logical conclusions. Yet, logical conclusions are always dependent upon the past. Logic requires sequence, time, past. It requires an amount of time track –case. It is thinking based on the past. Logic applies to MEST for as long as it does, but it does not apply to beings that are not MESTy.

    You can say “well Jim has 8 SP characteristics thus he is SP”. No. Jim is driven by a being that can be anything anytime. I can be SP. I can get such a viewpoint. I don’t have to be it forever. That’s why SCNist (and everybody else) should better dump all considerations they have about case or otherwise how the past affects them. There is no past anyway. And that being can be Jim or the devil or whomever.

    Free thought wouldn’t be logical thought, as it wouldn’t stem from any past. If you got all data, you could figure out what happened with the COS or stuff like that, although data couldn’t substitute personal experience. However, no matter how much data you got, you wouldn’t be able to create something anew (maybe a new spiritual philosophy, or something). That would require creativity in the sense of originality. Creativity based on the past is doomed to resemble or even repeat itself. Even without logic, you could know what is going on with the COS based on your own perception. ‘Deep down’ we all know and knew. That’s knowingness.

  357. spyrosillusionist

    Yes 🙂 I have seen one in higher resolution but I couldn’t find it yesterday.

  358. Well Marty……there are over 800 comments
    to your last two threads.
    I don’t know if there are other threads with
    more comments but you generated a lot of great
    comments on these last two.
    The broader horizons you spoke of in your last
    sentence is really why I got involved in Scientology.
    Yet I still think as an auditor and how this would work.
    I think the lower grade chart stuff….Life Repair, Grades etc.
    are still workable and would be a great set-up to then go on to
    these broader horizons. But is going on to these
    broader horizons a solo effort (not solo auditing) not involving an
    auditor? Or would the early LRH processes enhancing one’s OT abilities
    be used to give one an assist to go on to a point where they then say…
    hey I see this and can go on to broader horizons on my own.

  359. Hi Al. I don’t see conditions formulas as problem solving exactly. They aren’t a matter of determining what caused you to be in the condition you’re in, or determining what the problems are as regards some condition or state . You already know that what the PROBLEM is if, for example, your income suddenly dropped steeply – e.g. you can’t pay your bills. Conditions formulas, on the other hand, tell you how to rise to a higher condition (or stay in one).

    But I haven’t read the book. Can you give me an example of what it would have you do if your condition in some area of life suddenly plunged (as in Danger)?

  360. Windhorse, from my experience, not everyone got into Scientology because of wanting to handle a ruin – unless you want to count as a “ruin” the purpose to help others. Sometimes (not as often) reg’s would find THAT as a so-called “ruin” although “purpose” is actually at a different place (higher) on the scale of Awareness Characteristics than “ruin”. I speak from my experience as a Public (Div 6) Reg and from my own interest in Scientology when I first got in.

  361. No Alanzo, I did not say Curtis Jackson is a Scientologist. I said he has created policies in social intercourse that align with Hubbards. Why don’t you read the book.

  362. Elizabeth Hamre

    Sp……”Free thought wouldn’t be logical thought, as it wouldn’t stem from any past””……………..One only has ”thoughts” while one plays the game of being Human.[ forced to play]
    Thoughts, having sounds inside the ” head’ is original to those who have been implanted and the ”thoughts’ were originally ” operational directions given to the ROBOT BODY’ ‘ like what do, what not do and how to do something.
    This is the reason people cant stop that continual rambling in the head.. thoughts chasing each other, contradicting thoughts.. arguments with the self.. and with imaginary others since by now the implant s has run wild, Plus there is more than one recording going at the same time.. So free thoughts well, In my reality they don’t exist and outside of these universe where one do not have robot bodies thought are not in fashion.
    Communication happens mostly by intention and flashing pictures toward other terminals.. We all can duplicate pictures.. 🙂

  363. Tom Gallagher

    Regards ‘the old man’…..

    “No statement should be believed because it is made by an authority. “ – Robert Heinlein

  364. Very interesting. Yes, I knew you were talking about earlier times, I just threw in that little piece of history. I loved engineering. Urban planning. I know a lot about Earth’s geography and it’s cycles. Quite familiar with the conditions known as the four elements.

    Earth is a prime piece of real estate. And where you have real estate you have investors. In our case, we have foreign investors. Very foreign. You don’t suppose this planet is just sitting here by accident do you? Right, like Disneyland is sitting there by accident. This is not an abandoned house as some might suppose.

    A total of 174,100 tonnes of gold have been mined in the most recent human history, according to GFMS (Gold Fields Mineral Services) as of 2012. Anyway, once the gold is stripped, I think title to this planet will be sold to other investors. There are still many valuable resources here and will be for roughly 1,000 more years.

    Americans already can not own land here. The government has craftily seized it all, and rents it back to the people under the banner of “property taxes”. Nobody owns the land their home sits on.

    Basically, we all just have a time share here for now.

    But this should not be alarming. Some wonderful things are planned for this planet. Roughly 1,000 years from now, some very magical and wonderful things will happen here. It will be a time of renaissance and reward for everyone. A real “golden age”.

    Meanwhile, we are all tenant dwellers.

  365. Well that’s astonishing that Curtis Jackson has policies that align with L Ron Hubbard’s.

    Does he have a “Keeping Curtis Jackson Working” policy where he’d rather have you dead than incapable?

    Does he have a Dept 20 Office of Special Affairs where he has his homies destroy anyone who criticizes him or tries to outsell him in the record bidness?

    Do his records promise to take you to states of beingness where nothing will strike you down?

    How do you mean, exactly?


  366. I get your point.

    You are saying that the Danger condition is something that you can rely on in times of plunging statistics.

    But is it, really?

    I mean the Church’s stats have plunged over and over and they keep applying danger and all they can think of to do is create stuff like “The Hole” because danger says that it’s always an out ethics situation that caused the plunge.

    So when you have an unworkable technology – a technology that does not work on most people and you can never confront or acknowledge that – then you have to take harsher and harsher ethics measures on your most hard working and dedicated employees, and still the stat does not go up, but keeps going down.

    Don’t get me wrong, I have had plenty of wins using the ethics conditions.

    But I have found better and more workable ways to handle the problems of life than L Ron Hubbard’s ethics conditions.

    For instance, one of the tools in that book is called “Hypothesis Testing” and this tool, when learned well without any MUs, can help you to spot Real Whys that don’t introvert you and keep your attention on the task at hand – getting that stat up – without having to dwell on all your “sins”.

    Really. I mean it. A person as smart as you are would benefit from reading that book. And I suggest it to you because I care about you and want to see you do well in life.

    Marildi: there are better tools to use to handle life than L Ron Hubbard’s ethics conditions.


  367. And if you live around the Great Lakes, get some assault rifles and stock up on ammo for when they come this way trying to poach the water supply…..

  368. Thanks AL. Since you are rather allergic to quotes of LRH, let me recommend this book by Jacob Needleman to you: “Lost Christianity”. I believe it points towards a solution of these problems of ‘systems’ (mechanics) versus……. what?

  369. spyrosillusionist

    I got that. But by saying ‘thoughts’ I didn’t only mean voices inside heads. I classify as thoughts also concepts that are not verbalised and mock ups too.


  370. Elizabeth Hamre

    Valkov…. LOL… Oh the aliens have very advanced technology. They will slurp up the water from space or use a long straw…Or just think it into their space tankers… or they will drop something really really hot into the water which will evaporate it and the aliens will inhale that vapor.. the possibilities are endless: a new thought hit me I am brilliant!: they could harvest the clouds too! 🙂

  371. Hey there Brian.
    Sorry about the poor communication. Sometimes I fire off thoughts without actually looking to see how they communicate.

    I was actually pretty much aligning with your comment to Mitch. On this blog all opinions are accepted as a valid opinion. In the mission/org breakrooms, you had to be careful with what you said. If you actually had a deep thought, you had to search out a high OT to voice it to. If you had a disagreement, you had to go to a Non-Scnist to discuss it.

    As for you being a busy guy, I meant that you are not one of those people who sit in a closet with one hand on the keyboard and the other on their pud. You DO. You have studied, investigated. The ability to put forth effort is something I respect greatly.

    Sometimes I forget that those on this blog are not sitting here in front of me, chatting back and forth. When the comm lag is a day instead of 3 seconds, better detail is needed for my comments. As for the next part of my comment, just wanted to get some people off their asses and doing something worthwhile. Many people are doing that, some are not.

    When I first read your comments some months ago, I was a bit critical of you attitude. I have since learned to look forward to you posts. You have done a lot of work and your knowledge and viewpoint is valuable. Keep it up. If I make it your way, we’ll grab a beer. Would be fun. Rich, dark, and not to dry. Low hops and high calorie.
    PS; Milled a few hundred ft. of red oak and cedar the last few days. Can’t get over how much character and color red oak has that has been grown wild in the forest (not a tree farm). Got some wild cherry that is going to my niece’s bassinet. Gonna be special.

  372. [Mark: the following should be construed as a critical analysis of
    one of your blog posts and nothing more. I have studiously avoided
    making any sort of personal remarks.]

    In a blog posting dated April 4, 2014 titled Scientology and
    , Mark Rathbun wrote:

    “More than thirty years of research has demonstrated rather conclusively
    that the average human being when connected to a galvanic skin response
    detection device (generic name for a Hubbard Electro-psychometer)
    routinely registers presentiment of about five seconds. That is, the
    meter reads on average 5 second prior to the subject being provided with
    a concept to respond to. This research has been performed on people
    taken off the street, with no previous psychic or spiritual training or
    study. It has been conducted applying exacting scientific standards.”

    As evidence of the above, several popular books which make reference to
    this research are listed (but without proper citation, so that it would
    be necessary to read the entire texts in order find out what was
    actually said).

    Scientists do not rely upon the claims or conclusions about scientific
    research found in popular books. Instead, they go to peer-reviewed
    journal publications. Good scientists do not simply accept that the
    conclusions found in the abstracts of research papers are valid. All
    such papers must be examined for possible errors in the experimental
    design, data gathering, data analysis and statistical reasoning that led
    to the conclusions before they are accepted.

    Notably absent from the above cited blog posting is any citation of the
    actual peer-reviewed scientific journal publications which detail the
    experiments, how they were conducted, how the data were analyzed, what
    conclusions were arrived at and how. Also notably absent is any
    description of how these purported “presentiment” reads might appear on
    a Hubbard Electropsychometer.

    With these omissions in mind, I decided to find and examine the relevant
    journal publications (cited below). Google Scholar made it a relatively
    trivial effort requiring perhaps a couple of hours to obtain PDF
    versions of all the cited papers. I have careful reviewed Radin, D. I.
    (1997); Bierman, D. J., & Radin, D. I. (1998); Spottiswoode, James P., &
    May, E.C. (2003) & Radin, D. I. (2004). These are the major research
    publications on “presentiment”.

    After thorough examination of the above papers, I have determined:

    (1) That the claim that experimental subjects were provided with
    concepts for response is unsupported by the papers reviewed.

    All the papers describe a common experimental procedure in which
    randomly chosen digital photographs are displayed to the subjects on a
    computer monitor some seconds after the subject pushes a button. These
    photographs were divided into categories of Calm (no unusual response
    expected) and Extreme (an emotional response expected) with the Extreme
    photos further divided into content types of Sexual or Violent.

    No equivalence of photographic images with concepts was asserted or
    demonstrated in any of these papers.

    (2) In Scientology and Presentiment, Mr. Rathbun clearly implies these
    research findings apply to Scientology auditing, yet there is no
    slightest similarity between the experimental procedure and auditing
    procedure. In particular, there is no Scientology auditing procedure of
    any kind in which the auditing subject pushes a button and then waits to
    be shown a photograph on a computer monitor or otherwise.

    (3) Figures 2-5 in Radin (2004) showing skin conductance (reciprocal of
    skin resistance) GSR graphs during the period from button push to image
    presentation and afterwards for four (4) different experiments. Where
    these graphs rise an E-meter needle would fall, so it is possible to
    relate these responses to E-meter reads. These graphs were all
    normalized to show departure from the current base GSR (TA Position on
    an E-Meter) during any given trial.

    The general consistent pattern for all four experiments, whether the
    image was Calm or Extreme, is a slow decrease in GSR (Rise) over the
    five or six seconds between the button push and image display. For the
    Extreme images, there is then a much stronger (6 to 8 times larger)
    increase in GSR (Fall) approximately two (2) seconds after the image is
    displayed. For Calm images, there may be a smaller increase (Fall) about
    the same magnitude as the preceeding decrease (Rise) then the GSR
    decrease continues.

    On an E-Meter with the Sensitivity and TA properly adjusted to keep this
    entire sequence on the dial, the 5 or 6 second prior Rise would be less
    than a tenth of a dial, if the 2 seconds latent Fall were around
    two-thirds of a dial. The slight variation between presentiment reads
    for Sexual and Violent images shown in the experimental results would
    not be visually distinguishable, whereas the large difference between
    the latent Fall for Sexual (1/3 of a dial) versus Violent (2/3 of a
    dial) in these experiments would still be very pronounced.

    (4) The claim that “the meter reads on average 5 second prior to the
    subject being provided with a concept to respond to” is greatly
    erroneous and misleading, since the entire response continues for 10
    seconds or more after the image is displayed and the strongest
    and most visible portion of this response is after.

    (5) In the Scientology procedure called “Listing and Nulling”, after a
    list of the subject’s answers to a question has been made, it has to be
    nulled by assessment in order to find the correct reading item to indicate
    to the subject. This item has to be the correct item or all Hell breaks
    loose with the subject. That is a very well known principle of auditing
    that has been experienced by hundreds of auditors and preclears.

    The correct item is always found to be the one with the biggest instant
    read, not the one that read five or six seconds prior.

    So, the presentiment phenomena is certainly interesting and these papers
    certainly seem to indicate that it is genuine. Nevertheless, this
    presentiment research appears have no bearing on the subject of
    Scientology auditing whatsoever

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist
    Bierman, D. J., & Radin, D. I. (1998). Conscious and anomalous non-
    conscious emotional processes: A reversal of the arrow of time?
    In Toward a Science of Consciousness, Tucson III (pp. 367-386),
    MIT Press.
    Radin, D. I. (1997). Unconscious perception of future emotions:
    An experiment in presentiment. Journal of Scientific Exploration,
    Vol. 11, pp. 163–180.
    Radin, D. I. (2004). Electrodermal Presentiments of Future Emotions.
    Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 18, No. 2, pp. 253-273
    Spottiswoode, James P., & May, E.C. (2003). Skin Conductance Prestimulus
    Response: Analyses, Artifacts and a Pilot Study
    Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 17, No. 4, pp. 617–641

  373. Alonzo: with all that you have written I bet you haven’t made many gains, had many wins or even cognitions with the tech. Am I right?

    There are many areas where the tech is priceless Alonzo. Auditing is one of them. Have you had any?

  374. martyrathbun09

    I hope you one day find the joy of learning to let go.

  375. OK but I was talking about the humans who live on Earth and depend on the Colorado river for their water…. 🙂

  376. spyrosillusionist

    I have found -in me- that philosophical generalities (people are___, the world is ______, the planet is ______, spirits are (or are not) ____ etc etc etc) offer just too much knowledge, if believed. Too much knowledge can mean that one think he can no longer learn, as there is nothing more to learn.

    I think living and learning and experiencing are close together as concepts.

    My point is again that a good philosophical route should (at least eventually) erase itself –If you consider that the potential to live is ‘good’. This doesn’t make the philosophy invalid, it makes it rather good-willing.

    I have regret many times to be ‘right’, because I know it’s actually BS –to hang on a concept or more too hard. To hang on an argument makes me feel like that –like holding BS in suspension. It’s not very nice.


  377. Alanzo wrote: “I mean the Church’s stats have plunged over and over and they keep applying danger and all they can think of to do is create stuff like ‘The Hole’ because danger says that it’s always an out ethics situation that caused the plunge.”

    Actually, the Church CREATES Danger conditions with all the bypass that goes on. Based on that and many other misapplications, we know for sure that it doesn’t apply the conditions correctly. As I wrote in an earlier comment, I don’t think there has ever been a valid, broad test of the conditions formulas.

    Thus, it is mere assertion (that’s a logical fallacy, btw 😉 ) for you to state: “But I have found better and more workable ways to handle the problems of life than L Ron Hubbard’s ethics conditions.” In any case, we aren’t going to get anywhere trying to have a blog debate that is merely theoretical.

    Nevertheless, you still haven’t given me an example of what you would do if the condition in some area of your life plunged downward (as in Danger) over the last, say, week. Maybe use “Hypothesis Testing” since you think highly of that. It sounds pretty complicated to me. 😛

  378. Thanks, Valkov.

    I always appreciate your book recommendations. I’ve looked this one up on Amazon and it looks good.

    Thanks again.


  379. Hi Mitch –

    Yeah, I’ve had a lot of auditing.

    I was a Scientologist for 16 years, staff in missions for 7.5, am a “Clear”, and trained in Admin to Staff Status 2, Ethics Specialist & Data Series Evaluator. I also did half of a Saint Hill Special Briefing Course.

    You can find out more about me at my blog:


  380. Michael, thanks for going to all this trouble. It was interesting data and I thought you did a good, thorough job. However, I didn’t understand one statement you made:

    “No equivalence of photographic images with CONCEPTS was asserted or
    demonstrated in any of these papers.”

    What exactly would an “image with a concept” be?

    My idea is that it is possible for either words or pictures to go into the mind as concepts, as described in HCOB “Superliteracy and the Cleared Word.” Are you familiar with that bulletin?

    Also, from the Tech Dictionary, a concept is defined as “that which is retained after something has been perceived.” (DMSMH)

    Again, it may be that I just don’t understand what you mean by “images with concepts.”

  381. Sorry – here’s the right link to my blog:


  382. p.s. Or, for that matter, even a stimulus-response type of reaction to a picture could get a read. I’m just not sure what your stress on “concept” is about. It’s true that an auditor is supposed to get across a concept on a command, but words themselves can read – and also the “sight” of something, which could be a picture. Right?

  383. Val: “…’systems’ (mechanics versus….. what?”

    Does Jacob Needleman say anything like this:

    “The more thetan you have present, the less policy you need and the better things run. Only a thetan can handle a post or a pc. All he needs is the know-how of minds as contained in Scientology. That was all he ever lacked. So, given that, sheer policy is poor stuff as it seeks to make a datum stand where a being should be.” (HCO PL 23 Oct 63)

  384. Yeah, pretty much.

  385. He even has a policy on disconnection. As much distance as soon as possible.

    But he has this history buff behind him illustrating examples.

  386. “Hubbard went so far to definitively announcing a ‘law’ back then that if one focused on disability he would ultimately get more disability and if he focused on ability he would get more ability, and then constructed the entire bridge in defiance of that law.” This is true. But I have to ask, “Why would he do that?” Followed by, “Do you have any idea?”
    The most obvious answer is that it would be more lucrative that way. I would like to be wrong about that. Can you help me out here?

  387. Robert Almblad

    The e meter is a tool LRH borrowed from others to do research on human thought via resistance to electricity. Given the complexity of human’s thoughts and electrical field, the meter might do something more or different than LRH discovered.

    As a PC I have often found that being guided by the meter was just nuts. I used to think it was bad metering or bad TRs but today I cannot and will not “thought stop myself” into looking further. There is something wrong with the Bridge to Total Freedom because it does not produce that result when applied.

  388. Hi Joe,
    The Buddha outlined various stages of human awareness. To begin with, the simile of the turtle was given. Imagine a fisherman who throws a small metal circle into the Pacific Ocean the size of sea turtle’s head. Imagine a blind turtle in the Pacific Ocean who come up for air every 100 years. Then imagine how difficult it would be for the turtle to emerge with the ring around its neck. This illustrates the gift of human life and how difficult it is to even become human. Humans are only capable of mental development mainly through meditation or even mental purification. Even minor gods envy humans in this regard. Those humans fortunate enough to be on earth have a chance based on past Karma. If you happen to pick up an e-meter or if you are related to developed minds, you increase your chances. It may sound heartless, but the laws are karma are very strict. Karma can be easily changed given the correct focus of favorable multiple conditions.

    Much Metta,
    George M. White

  389. Hi marildi,
    Great that you like the quotations from the Buddha.
    The only way I can compare LRH’s quotation to the Buddha’s is to take a higher step into the Buddhist idea of pleasure, pain, and neither pleasure nor pain. The Scientology idea is based on the impact of energy and probably the idea of the engram. The interlocking facsimiles
    hang up. This would correspond to the idea of pain in Buddhism. However, there are two additional factors to consider in Buddhism.
    The Buddha taught the “Middle Way.” Equanimity, as a factor of meditation, would temper or moderate both pleasure and pain. In the last years of his life, Buddha was struck with severe pain and he did not have medications. Thus the state of “neither pleasure nor pain” could be reached. Underlying this higher state, a foundation to consider is really the idea of the “void” in Buddhism. This void transcends the idea of mentality and materiality.

    Much Metta,
    George M. White

  390. correction:
    “who comes up for air every 100 years.”

  391. Marty,
    “One faculty that is critical to spiritual growth is neglected, and then disabled, along the scientology route. In my view it is at the heart of the decline and reversal noted above. That is intuition. When I use the term intuition I use it in its broadest possible sense. That includes what the world at large considers extra sensory perception (including presentiment) and cognition and what Scientologists have referred to as ‘OT abilities.”

    I made a strategic withdrawal from the cult over 20 years ago. I had experienced by then enough of those intuitions and presentiments in the form of feelings and sensations. I had an outright sense of foreboding that Scientology was a dangerous place to be.

    I was then honestly confused enough that I couldn’t tell anymore; Scientology looked to me pretty much like the bogeyman Hubbard had scared everybody about. Yes, that is not a joke, as far as I was concerned I had gone to sleep and woke up in ARSCLYCUS II.

    And I didn’t know who Miscavige was, hell I didn’t even know where Gold or INT was at that time.

    At the bottom of every policy and practice that I find abhorrent in Scientology is Hubbard’s name, authored by him and obscured by some other pronouncement to the contrary. Just a cloud of smoke to hide the fact that he is trapping you all the way in.

    And I’m fully aware of the possibilities of the tech, and that it is possible to reach Enlightment with it.
    I actually think that a lot of Scientologists have reached that point, and then were talked out of it by Hubbard or his Cult, and brought back into the spinning wheel of the Scientology Bridge.

    I don’t think that Hubbard was evil, I think he was DANGEROUS, and that a lot of Scientologists made a big mistake in underestimating Hubbard’s power to delude.

  392. Elizabeth Hamre

    Mitch… hi… those who had wins improvement in their life’s because of auditing will not run it to the ground .and this is my reality.. The tech works but to have results in need to be used.. but first had to have it understood how it works and why it works.
    LRH’s greatest gift was to us that he thought us how to confront, and what that confront can do.. Simply be there and face the incoming music.
    Now how could be anything simpler than a question asked and to give a answer to that question?
    It seems those who speak against auditing, the tech. they could not comprehend its simplicity.
    I know 3 OT’s my self
    1: at OT 5 she still did not understand what ARCB’s means
    2: done all the OT levels and never ever given up one O/W’s !! he said he never done anything wrong in his entire existence! Of course he has blown and hates all scientologists.
    3: OT7.. never confronted past lifes and don’t believe in the tech.
    How could she have attained OT 7 and not confronting past lifes?
    She said, I think scientology is a hoax..I had fun but it did not do a think for me.
    Interesting … have a lovely day! Elizabeth

  393. Marildi wrote:

    Thus, it is mere assertion (that’s a logical fallacy, btw 😉 ) for you to state: “But I have found better and more workable ways to handle the problems of life than L Ron Hubbard’s ethics conditions.”

    Oh!! Takin’ the gloves off, are ya?

    Logical fallacy?

    How is a statement like “But I have found better and more workable ways to handle the problems of life than L Ron Hubbard’s ethics conditions.” in the context I offered it a logical fallacy?

    I hope this isn’t another “logical fallacy” logical fallacy of yours…


  394. Oh well I’ll have to jump right on this. Studying one sociopath’s policies is not enough for one life time – I’ll need to study this one’s too!

    Will you be star rating me on it?

    Will there be clay demo checkouts?

    Alanzo (:>)

  395. Robert Almblad

    Speaking of Scientologists getting trained into constructs, I read that OT VIII John Alander is currently re-doing the Purif and probably will start running around a pole after that as part of GAG II. Do you know or does anyone know if LRH did either of these 2 things? Purif and pole running? When I worked for him in the early 70’s he did not do anything like these sort of activities.

  396. one of those who see

    Absolutely brilliant.

  397. Hi again George,

    You reminded me of some data that I was forgetting about. Relevant to some other comments on this thread as well, here is an excerpt from an HCOB I studied on Level II. It basically says that O/W’s are by far NOT the whole story – which Scientologists don’t generally realize, not only because they aren’t familiar with this bulletin but because most of us aren’t on a higher level than O/W’s, according to LRH:

    HCOB 22 Dec 1960, “O-W, A LIMITED THEORY”:

    “Before I would permit you to believe that the overt-withhold mechanism was a total way of life, I would point out that it applies only to a strata of existence and that it stems from failures to help.

    “The theory that what you do to others will then happen to you is a punishment control mechanism peculiar to this universe. It derives from a deteriorated willingness to duplicate. It IS the law of physics of INTERACTION—for every action there is an equal and contrary reaction.

    “‘Love thy neighbor,’ when it is no longer a willingness, is enforced by the theory of O-W. ‘Love thy neighbor’ can exist only when help, control and communication are high. When all these go, then O-W comes into vogue as a method of enforcing peace.

    “O-W is a theory which sets in when aberration sets in. It is not a high natural law. It is junior to the various laws of Communication, Control and Help.

    O-W can occur only when help has failed. Help is a co-joining of vectors of life. When two beings who have joined forces to help fail each other, only then does O-W come into existence.

    “The forces of two beings cannot come into dispute until after they have first joined. Thus there is no war like that seen between brothers or husband and wife.

    “The cycle is this:


    “Basically, O-W is an effort to regain the status of INDEPENDENT BEING without taking responsibility for any of the intervening steps.

    “The reason we run O-Ws is that most pcs are on O-W by Transfer, which is to say, when they kick George in the head they get a headache themselves. This makes them think they are George. We use O-W since it explains phenomena found at a low humanoid level. We do not use it because it is a senior governing law of the universe.

    “When Help comes up, O-W as a mechanism drops out…

    “O-W, whether as worry or being critical (unkind thoughts), is the result of failure to help. O-W is the reason one gets another’s valence. O-W is why pcs have somatics. But O-W is not a high order law.

    “You will not always have to be careful not to bump Joe. It would be a horrible universe indeed if O-W was its senior law, for one could then never DO anything.

    “Fortunately, it drops out, both as a governing law and a necessity in life.”

    Click to access 1960_61.PDF

  398. Al wrote: “Oh!! Takin’ the gloves off, are ya?…I hope this isn’t another ‘logical fallacy’ logical fallacy of yours…”

    No, but THAT was another one of those Assertion fallacies of yours. 😛

    So okay, yeah – gloves off. Cast your beady little eyes on this datum about the fallacy of Assertion: “In its extreme form, it can also be a form of brainwashing.”

    This is serious, Al – brainwashing!

  399. Now now let’s not trigger Al’s allergy. Needleman’s book is a good read written in simple everyday language….. 🙂

  400. Killjoy! 🙂

  401. spyrosillusionist

    This could be a good reason to make some kind of a group for the purpose of helping each other, by whatever means, and not professionally (in terms of exchange). I think people usually help each other, but why not make it like that too.

  402. Hi marildi,
    Thanks for sending the Bulletin. However, we could spend a lot of time analyzing it and we would probably move farther and farther from Karma as it is expressed in very simple terms in Buddhism. Let’s just say that the Buddha warned against this type of analysis which is far too detailed to be of any benefit in meditation.
    The best simile for Karma which I really like is the one about water flowing down from the high mountains and into the sea below. You first get rain which forms large pools of water. Next streams flow into lakes. Lakes flow into rivers. The rivers flow into the sea. It is the idea of the stream or the flow which is important. You can use pain, overts, withholds, sin, black masses to describe Karma. It is the flow which is important. This is why you always hear Buddhists talking about crossing the stream or moving up the stream. It is much like Heraclitus not Aristotle.

    “O-W is a theory which sets in when aberration sets in. It is not a high natural law. It is junior to the various laws of Communication, Control and Help.”

    This quotation above, more than any other, separates Scientology
    O-W from Karma. Here we get Hubbard talking about the steam engine.
    He likes to use the simile of the lever or the winch. It is very mechanical, and follows Aristotle and not Heraclitus.

    I hope this helps. Please be advised that I am not a teacher and only answer questions in my own way. Also remember that the Buddha warned against this specific type of analysis and I will be reluctant to respond in any greater depth.

    Much Metta,
    George M. White

  403. Marildi wrote:

    quoting me – “No equivalence of photographic images with CONCEPTS was asserted or demonstrated in any of these papers.”

    then asking – “What exactly would an “image with a concept” be?”

    No disrespect intended, Marildi but you have parsed this sentence incorrectly. A noun clause of the form: “equivalence of with ” expresses the comparison of two things held to be identical in form or effect. I could have written “No equivalence between photographic images and concepts was asserted or demonstrated in any of these papers” to express exactly the same thing.

    I hope this clarifies my thought for you.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  404. [moderator: please delete the previous reply as it is does not render correctly due to incorrect HTML tags. Sorry. MAH]

    Marildi wrote:

    quoting me – “No equivalence of photographic images with CONCEPTS was asserted or demonstrated in any of these papers.”

    then asking – “What exactly would an “image with a concept” be?”

    No disrespect intended, Marildi but you have parsed this sentence incorrectly. A noun clause of the form: “equivalence of [a thing] with [another thing]” expresses the comparison of two things held to be identical in form or effect. I could have written “No equivalence between photographic images and concepts was asserted or demonstrated in any of these papers” to express exactly the same thing.

    I hope this clarifies my thought for you.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  405. Jump on these policy makers as well. Be aware of the knowledge. These are classics currently used in today’s world.

    Just see for yourself how many have reproduced his book “The Prince” in the last few years!

  406. Well then.

    I have to say that you have now stooped at least 5 rungs lower than I would have ever thought you would stoop.


    You are now accusing me of marketing.

    Your assertion that my assertion is a fallacy is the same fallacy itself!

    It’s the dreaded logical fallacy logical fallacy again.


  407. singanddanceall

    I don’t know about that, Conan.
    You don’t think Hubbard was evil, but dangerous.

    Well, Hubbard said he “cleared” what was it 270 people in his book called “dianetics”. It would be nice if he named them, now that I think about it.

    But, further on in 1958. the Clearing Congress videos, he says we finally got it, “clear”. And then thru the 1960’s at St Hill, he says we finally got it, clearing course and all. And then later on 1970’s, I believe, well there is now a “natural clear”.


    I read dianetics back in the late 1980’s only wanting to go “clear” and help my friends if I could get more abilities. You know, all those abilities a “clear” is supposed to have. I was not looking for nor interested in some religion, brother.

    Somehow I got taken along this so called route to “clear”.

    Thank gawd for the Debbie Cook email otherwise I’d still be drinking the PR lines.

    I don’t know, claiming the abilities of “clear”, and then “ot”, but yet no one has those abilities, I put Hubbard in the evil camp & dangerouse camp. I used to think he was my friend.

    Additionally, consider that there are no OT levels above OT8, why that is evil as well, that is to imply there is, when if fact there are not, should one still believe in “clear” and “ot”.

    So was the cost worth it, NO.
    To answer Martys question.

    To tell yah the truth, now that I’m reading other viewpoints, Nap. Hill, Dale Carnegie, Korzybski, Aristotle on rhetoric, etc,

    why I’m having way more wins. LOL
    And it ain’t costing me anything.
    Hubbards organized body of data can be thrown in the trash bin as far as I’m concerned. LOL

  408. Yes, I’ve read them.

    Many times, in fact.

    So I think I am beginning to get your message to me now:

    L Ron Hubbard was not the only one to develop sociopathic policies that waged war against the sovereign rights of people in order to enrich himself.

    And since these other guys did it, then L Ron Hubbard didn’t do it.

    And if he did do it, it’s okay because everyone does it all the time.



  409. Hi George. I too have seen how the analysis you mentioned can be entangling and the opposite of some good spiritual goal. That kind of thinking is of course not only found in SCN.

    From my perspective, LRH broke down the trouble to tiny pieces so that people can deal with it piece by piece. He wanted it to be used by anybody –not just people with some spiritual awareness and will for more. So he sort of married spiritual philosophy with mental science, and it held the liabilities that you mentioned.

    There is also the matter of individual perspectives. Not all had the same ‘reactions’ with SCN. But probably we can say the there can be an average. I personally had much of the good and much of the bad stuff.

    During my experiences with it, I saw people thinking of things with it and doing things with it that I didn’t. Or I thought and did things with it that others didn’t.

    Anyway, now I’m not on any path that I know of. I’m on a very simplistic ‘path’ of my own that ‘eradicates’ complexities. No sessions etc No addressing charged areas. I don’t write about it, because if I read it in words I wouldn’t grasp it. From the outside, it seems light –what happened with me and SCN. I believe part of what I do now was LRH’s goal too, or part of LRH’s goal was something like what I can do now. I see differences in the path but similarities in the goals.


  410. * Something that could be of interest: You (plural) can check out a set of processes called ‘six steps for better beingness’, if you haven’t already. I think the HCOB that contains them has the same name and it must be around 1953-1954, and they don’t require an auditor nor an e-meter and can be done by oneself. Some resemble some meditations.

  411. Marildi.
    This is a very important quote from LRH. It is something I have known all my life but never put into words. Policy is just a guideline to be used up until one actually knows what they are doing. As a catch 22, one who doesn’t know what they are doing will misunderstand policy. This applies to any policy from anyone on any subject.
    Thanks Marildi.

  412. Okay, Mike, thanks for the clarification. Silly me, I get the parsing now. 🙄

    However, the essence of my query is the same. To put it more clearly this time, I’m not sure why there would necessarily be a need to assert or demonstrate an equivalence of photographic images and concepts – depending on which definition of “concept” was being used:

    1. a general notion or idea; conception.
    2. an idea of something formed by mentally combining all its characteristics or particulars; a construct.
    3. a directly conceived or intuited object of thought.

    What do you say?

  413. Got it, George. Thanks for that additional data. I really enjoyed reading it. You are far and above the better student of philosophy than I am, let alone Buddhism!

    Much Metta,

  414. Mother Teresa would have loved you.

    Seriously, that is a theta proposal. 🙂

  415. Okay, all kidding aside, here’s a pretty good definition for the Fallacy of Assertion:

    “Mere Assertion is an argument that lacks factual support. It’s merely an opinion that is formed more so by belief then logical evidence. For example, ‘Robert is a vampire; I can feel his cold blood when I touch him.’ This argument has no real logic behind it, only reasoning that makes sense to the person stating it.”

    No one we know has ever done that, though. 😯

  416. Marty sounds more literate in the English language to me than Mike RInder. 🙂

  417. But aside from that, this reminds of the story “The Sea Org Girl with the Bag of Potatoes”. Have you heard that one? Apparently there was a girl, in L.A. that was in the Sea Org, that slipped and fell on the front stars of ASHO with a 10 lb. bag of potatoes in her arms. A public person passing on the street then said to her “Hey lady, don’t mash them before they are baked!” Oracle, get it? Don’t mash them before they are baked? It is so funny! The little Sea Org girl with the bag of potatoes. 🙂

  418. John Allender is a good Ambassador for OT VIII and a good emissary for David Miscavige:

  419. Crashing Upwards

    Conscience and Intuition both come from the connection to ones own Higher Power(s). The more your connected, the more you receive “tuition” as knowledge or moral guidance from your inner yet higher self. Scientology’s or any procedures or practices which helps a person clean up their space or stuck attention and flows, can remove impediments so that conscience and intuition may become available to the person.

  420. Robert Almblad

    Great handle Crepuscule
    “Our knowledge of the visible must penetrate again and again to the invisible, that it may live and grow.” Rudolf Steiner 1909 Occult Science An Outline in chapter “Sleep and Death”

  421. Elizabeth Hamre

    Oh Valkov.. you know by now that I have a problem, I answer on the picked up energy flow and ignore the words and that can be confusing..

  422. toodangerous

    I personally know several of `the current cancer-ridden bunch` who are or were trained auditors (class 6 and above), so I wouldn’t feel too confident hanging my hat on that belief.

  423. How literate of you.

  424. HAhaha I thought someone might see what I said like that –like too much kindness, sweetness and light.

    We some times talk about 1st dynamic case entanglement in SCN, but such a thing can occur anywhere and can occur on a social level too. What seems ordinary and normal to us might seem psycho to others. To get a buck you have to earn it, they say. Because it’s not fair to get bucks if you don’t earn them, as it’s unfair towards people that work hard to earn them. Right. And the people that do nothing but put others to earn tons of monies for them are of course ethical, ‘they offer work’. It’s a gift, lol. Thanks guys. And it’s ethical if you work for them too. OK, that’s dumb from my perspective. And it’s dumb to assume that unless you have this kind of social structure you are necessarily with communism or something. Helping is not copyrighted by any political systems nor religions nor anything.

  425. Eric,

    My indoctrination to Scn at my mission was very similar to the one you received. And in the beginning the idea that I was complete and lacked for nothing and only needed a bit of “dusting off,” did seem, in my Scn experience, to be supported and facilitated through the actions of the church staff. However, the further I progressed in this spiritual route the emphasis began to be placed more and more on what I lacked. That which is aware of being aware got turned into the construct of a person that was always in need of the next “tool.” The idea of my being complete and being everything pretty much faded away as I continued to buy into being the person construct that was a thought.

  426. That’s a good definition.

    But I would interpret the example a little differently.

    The person making the statement that “Robert is a vampire” is not merely asserting it.

    He has given his evidence which he believes supports it. And his evidence is “I can feel his cold blood when I touch him.”.

    Now the quality of that evidence is not very good without a thermometer being involved, but that is his evidence which supports his conclusion that “Robert is a vampire”.

    A mere assertion is a statement made with NO evidence to support it. And in the example given we have a chance to examine the evidence for the statement and decide for ourselves the quality of that evidence.

    So this example is not of a mere assertion.



  427. The reason I am taking the time to discuss this assertion fallacy is because, as you know Marildi, understanding what an argument is, and being able to recognize the parts of an argument are vital critical thinking skills.

    These skills are not taught in Scientology.

    Do you agree?

    And so being able to identify the evidence used to support an argument or conclusion is very important. It’s the first step to being able to evaluate whether evidence is sound or not.



  428. Well you got it right, actually.

    Those people from Texas, Nevada, etc. who try to poach water from the Great Lakes are considered to be “alien invaders” by us who live here. They have in fact been trying to get at the water from our lakes for many years, the would-be marauders!

  429. There could be other reasons why a person’s skin feels “cold” to another. The “assertion” here is not that the person’s skin feels “cold”, which in itself is not a direct measurement of how cold his BLOOD is. The assertion is that he is a vampire, and no actual evidence of that is presented.

    That’s some of the fallacy in what you wrote; so no, not ‘right’.

  430. Elizabeth Hamre

    Valkov… they just have to get their own water grow they own lakes! … I have lived In Toronto, Hamilton and in Port Clburn on Lake Erie, The windows from our house over looked the Canal which was about 100 ‘ away. It was some sight seeing those takers sliding by :only their upper half was visible. We also went through the same calan which connects Lake Erie and L.Ontario on a 16’ boat.. my first time was heart pounding experience being on the bottom of these huge locks and when the water was let in to raise or let out that churning was scary.. than I still had fear[was not yet blown] and I almost had to change my own diapers! It is beautiful around there… oh those peaches from the Niagara growers!!!

  431. Very good Valkov.

    You spotted that the evidence he gave about his blood being cold was not related to his conclusion that he was a vampire.

    Well done.

    Can you apply those same skills to what L Ron Hubbard wrote?

    Let’s see you do that now.


  432. Elizabeth Hamre

    A…… understanding what an argument is, and being able to recognize the parts of an argument are vital critical thinking skills.
    These skills are not taught in Scientology. “””
    Hey there… you believe that you so superior to all yes… you have thinking skills and “thinking’ bit is pure undiluted bank… the REST OF US POOR SOULS HERE WE HAVE KNOWING-NESS’ which is alien to you since knowledge in the form of truth you have none! .
    Don’t bother to answer.. we don’t share reality and your communication would be negative as usual..but I could not resist point how you believe that you are superior to us. Which is very good since who would want to be sharing reality with you!

  433. Yeah, I spotted that but you apparently did not until I pointed it out……

    As a logician I think you make great mudpies.

  434. Elizabeth:

    I said that Scientology does not teach critical thinking skills such as being able to recognize the parts of an argument, what a conclusion is, what a premise is, what evidence is to support an argument, etc.

    I did not say that I was superior to anyone.

    Your post demonstrates that with all the Scientology you have done, you have still not learned how to read a statement and to be able to think it through.

    It is a skill: something that is taught and must be practiced in order to get better at it.

    This skill is not taught in Scientology.

    That is all.


  435. Elizabeth Hamre

    No Alanzo we all have that skill scientology do not need to teach that.. because it is not a skill need to be learned.
    We do all have different skills and we are better doing something’s than other stuff
    And Alanso I am not doing scientology. I have left the church in 82.

  436. Elizabeth Hamre

    And Alanzo… no one can duplicate the other person reality… no one…that is impassible to do. to duplicate.. hehehe and you know why ? …. long time back and faraway… there were important agreement were made that we will not duplicate each other reality so we could not erase each others universes.. and by that we can null each others creation…. and as the tale goes by now we cant even duplicate our own deeds… OHHH but of course this is a fairy tale ….

  437. Mark, well said. I so agree – with regard to any policy, system or tech. And that catch 22 you described was, it seems to me, what LRH tried his best to get around and keep all the plates spinning. That he did as well as he did may some day be recognized broadly as quite an accomplishment, in spite of any and all wrong turns.

  438. No-no, I really didn’t mean to imply “sweetness and light.” I just meant that Mother Teresa took the sort of path you described. Her focus was on helping others.

    It’s a wonderful thing about “help” – that we can, and should, each accomplish it in the way we are personally inclined and which suits our particular abilities. I think you and I are seeing this in the same way. (As we often do. 🙂 )

  439. “And so being able to identify the evidence used to support an argument or conclusion is very important. It’s the first step to being able to evaluate whether evidence is sound or not.”

    Al, it seems to me that what you described above is nicely taken care of by the Data Series – which I think you know, since you’ve done the Data Series Evaluator’s Course.

    Basically, I don’t see anything missing in Scientology in terms of knowing how to know. However, neither do I deny that there’s more than one way to peel an orange… make a bed… catch a rabbit… or dive into a pool (I don’t like the expression “skin a cat” 😦 ). I think it’s a matter of personal choice, and I imagine you would agree.

  440. Marildi, Marildi, Marildi.
    My oh my. I have complimented you in the past for posting just the right LRH quote at just the right time, more than once. This one from my viewpoint, tops them all. How did you reach out and grab this one at just this moment.

    Whatever his foibles, whatever his obsessions, whatever his underlying case or shortcomings, this HCOB CLEARLY displays his deep understanding of the basic goodness of man, of Theta. He OBVIOUSLY had a very detailed knowledge of what goes right and what goes wrong with individuals and how to direct ones efforts toward helping people in the right direction. Most people, a few he missed.

    After spending time on this and other websites, I was beginning to believe that Ron was stuck in the thousands of rules and laws of human and spiritual behavior pertaining mostly to recent large common universes. This was not so. At least at the time, circa ’61’. Later, things may have changed.

    I have come to understand more and more in the last few years that ALL rules of life are inventions, ideas dreamed up, often disseminated widely for a purpose. ARC, Karma, O/Ws, overt motivator, exchange, Love thy neighbor, Dynamics, reactive bank, jealousy, desire, etc. etc. on and on. Most were created long before this space was ever thought of, but NONE ARE NATIVE TO A BEING. (I included ‘Love thy neighbor’ because when the soul is clean, how can one do otherwise.)

    But he understood well, as do I, that once in the grips of these invented complexities, one must work through them, understand them, in order to be free of them. Fully hatted. This is an important viewpoint, it begets activity, effort.

    Hubbard had many unsavory traits and made lots of mistakes, and it is probably, in the long run, a good thing. There are enough people already who idolize him. This consideration can cause one to believe that one can never equal or surpass him. This can and has caused a glass ceiling for many. At some time or another, one MUST take full responsibility for oneself. The time for guidance has to end at one point. Sifting through Ron’s (and others) insights and errors is part of the process.

    I am learning as time goes, when to say “He was absolutely brilliant”, and when to say “What the hell was he thinking”. But he is the one who got me started, and for that I will always be thankful.
    Thanks Marildi.
    ARCL, Mark.
    PS; Hope I put in enough disclaimers for those who think I am a Scn. troll.

  441. No. I think if one were well read on Macheavelli, one would see that Hubbard’s conflict policies were “Macheavellian”.

    He found Les Dane to teach people how to sell, that proved he didn’t “know everything”. He found Adelle Davis to teach people about nutrition. Hell, back when he wrote his G.O. policies he let other staff write policy! That HE never cancelled, David Miscavige did. David never wrote a policy. But he cancelled every mention another staff member got by contributing one.

    Maybe Hubbard had problems with conflict and just read Macheavelli and instituted some ideas.

  442. Or, Art of War brother by another mother.

  443. spyrosillusionist

    🙂 I exaggerated a little bit looking for a reason to say more.

    Yes, I don’t know exactly what Mother Teresa has done. I mostly know her because some use her to point out ‘too much help, kindness’ etc. “Who are you, Mother Teresa?” 😛

    It seems to me many have joined Christianity for the purpose to help, and they shouldn’t get ‘burned’ along with the inquisitors. Same with similar-minded Scientologists and others. After all, intention>mechanics.

    Yes, it’s good that we agree 🙂

  444. There is hearsay online that Teresa was anything but “sweetness and light”. She was a tough, dedicated person at best.

  445. I love this Thread and the next one, Marty. Glad to see you looking at this! There is a *great* book, if you have not read it…I *highly* recommend to all: “BLINK”. It’s about Scientific evidence about our very own “1st Instinct” and that MOST of the time, IF you listen to it….it’s correct. 🙂

  446. Elizabeth Hamre

    Marildi….. This sentence gotten my attention.
    “It IS the law of physics of INTERACTION—for every action there is an equal and contrary reaction.”” Of course I have not read this before but this was my ”cognition” : every time one postulate something than one gets the opposite.
    What I have seen that there is a mechanism implanted item which were put there to trap the being. You see, If I want something really -really. like freedom… than I would pull into becoming a slave. If I wanted lots of havingness like money I might get it but to be sure I will lose every penny.. Now If I would want to ”look young—stay young” than I would get the opposite, look old feel old. If you want health hehehe you will get sick..
    It is on existing implant but I have not found its source.. I did not bother to look.
    By the way your above post is very useful. thanks for posting it. By the way, I don’t totally agree with LRH’s reality on O/W’s only about 20%. have a lovely evening!

  447. Hi there, lovely Erzsebet.
    I find myself agreeing with you on so many things. Or should I say, discovering the same things you have found, due to the fact they are true.

    Your statements regarding the phys univ laws of ‘For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction’ and that these and similar laws having at it’s base, an implant. I have not found this particular implant, but have found that every other ‘law’ that I have tracked back, there was an implant attached to it. This is important. Most implants were not thought of as implants at the time. They did not employ force or pain. They relied on suggestion, coerced agreement, trickery, often in the form of ‘instruction’

    And they are reinforced by ‘number of times over equals certainty’.
    AND THEY ARE REINFORCED BY NUMBER OF TIMES OVER EQUALS CERTAINTY. Most implants have hundreds or thousands of E/Ss or earlier identicals.
    And they always depend for their workability on previous considerations. I always look for the prior, seemingly unrelated consideration, postulate, fixed opinion, etc. which it depends upon. If I do not find it, I write down the circumstance for later use. I have patience. If I am on a big FN, I simply go at it like it’s fun. It works. Finding the basic before the basic is something that some, I hope, will be discovering soon. I’ll keep you all updated.

    Hint; It involves studying eastern religions, including the Tao, and going over Methods of Mindfulness on Vinairs blog.

  448. Mark, I really loved with your post. For example:

    “After spending time on this and other websites, I was beginning to believe that Ron was stuck in the thousands of rules and laws of human and spiritual behavior pertaining mostly to recent large common universes. This was not so. At least at the time, circa ‘61’. Later, things may have changed.”

    I myself start to waver sometimes about the value of Ron’s contributions because of all the negative that gets pointed out. And then what happens is that I’m reminded of something he wrote or said, and in reviewing it I see again the awesome insight he had – which I perceive (or call it intuition) to be truth.

    Thanks for the nice ack too. I’m glad you and some others appreciate the Ron quotes. 😉

    Btw, what did you make of that top item on the scale (INDEPENDENT BEINGS, just above COMMUNICATION)? Knowing you, you might even have some track recall on this.

  449. Correction: “really loved with” should have been “really loved and resonated with”.

  450. Elizabeth: “What I have seen that there is a mechanism implanted item which were put there to trap the being.”

    Well done on the cog! The way I get it from LRH is that the physical universe operates on a “reverse vector” – in other words, what you reach for will always move away from you. The fact that we’re in agreement with that law is the reason we get the opposite of what we postulate.

    BUT, according to the scale in the quote I posted, we don’t have to remain at the level of agreement with the physical universe and the law of reverse vector – which is the level of O/W. It’s possible to go higher than that. In other words, the laws of O/W don’t have to be the way things are. We can rise up the scale to the levels above it.

  451. Right, Val, I see she was a combination:

    “For her unwavering commitment to aiding those most in need, Mother Teresa stands out as one of the greatest humanitarians of the 20th century. She combined profound empathy and a fervent commitment to her cause with incredible organizational and managerial skills that allowed her to develop a vast and effective international organization of missionaries to help impoverished citizens all across the globe.”

    Apparently, she was also good at “organizational and managerial skills that allowed her to develop a vast and effective international organization.”

  452. “I exaggerated a little bit looking for a reason to say more.”

    You’re cute, Spyros. 🙂 Seriously, I like your candidness!

  453. The question “Was it the first item on the list?” must be there for a good reason. 🙂

  454. Elizabeth Hamre

    Marildi… “”It’s possible to go higher than that. In other words, the laws of O/W don’t have to be the way things are. We can rise up the scale to the levels above it.”
    Of course the laws only apply in the Ph.U. It cant apply in the Spiritual universe since there considerations don’t exist therefore no reality on what is bad or what is good in other words evaluation don’t exist. Here in this universe failure is unknown… Marildi here in this universe is only NOW… PS we don’t ”rise” above anything we just change considerations. But you know this already. example: you are a lowlife or you are a most wonderful person I ever met..:)

  455. Elizabeth Hamre

    Mark ”’Hint; It involves studying eastern religions, including the Tao,”” I am ahead of you since I did that, done that and had hundreds of cognitions. as I said 40 years in session one can confront immense number of different realities belief agreement. And V..’s method well.. not for me.. He could not confront in session so he made something which he could but that method has not taken him To earlier similar! He has no reality on the track.

  456. Elizabeth Hamre

    Mark.. here is some stuff I have found on implants–valances-personalities.. have fun reading this!
    I will tell you what I know of implants. This of course is my reality, and understanding how they work since I have stumbled on them in sessions.

    Marty would you mind letting this go through? I know it is long but much fun to read. Thanks

    Waaaay back I have no idea how it have started but I have arrived into a new place a huge city, full of beings every kind every make. Here I found something new; I found that one could buy personality. One could change into different role whatever one desired. It was very simple one just went into the store, the outlet and looked over their list of personalities what was available to BE.

    But first one had to buy a basic personality a platform on which one could build on; this makes lot of sense to me if you would ask so we bought what we had to lose?

    Since the examples could be see those wonderful personalities in the city itself walking about on the streets and each being was the great advertisement of those new wonderful enticing products.

    One could see a new novelty a beautiful created woman and one clearly notice just how much admiration she has collected, everyone loved its energy flows they were very stimulative as she was sashaying down on the street.

    Wow one would think: That can be fun to cause such a big effect, just got to buy it too, a must have!

    Plus one finds out in the store yes, that item the “beautiful woman” is on the bestselling list. But one more thing if one pays a little extra than can get different versions of that “beautiful woman”. Example, classy lady, cocotte, gipsy girl, good person, bad person, old and wise lady etc… etc.. etc.

    Gets down loaded and now you are a beautiful woman you too can emanate those lovely energy flows and get admiration. You are now being that loveliness. You buy clothes for it you dress it, show it off everywhere. You are in the middle of everything, you are wooed. Courted by the “Male” personalities and handsome they are too. WOW!!!

    After a while one can become bored with that personality that game so you become a warrior, huge game, it has many complicated sides, variety, complexities like winning and losing, conquering, going to places, demolishing others. Great game to experience and all that power, much better than being a woman since her personality does not have that complexity as the warriors has.

    But just how long one can be a soldier even if one plays the role from the lowest foot soldier to the highest, and have the control by being a commander. So in this game new learning new understanding one can be controlled and one can control and control is better since it has the winning personality.

    Of course in each game were rules had to fallow in order to reach that end part of that game than you got some rewards and the knowledge you have ‘WON”. You are good, capable, better than others you have not lost that personality [died, eliminated in the middle of that game] And being the woman one learned how beauty can pull in admiration and how one can manipulate others by having wanting that admired person, personality. Sticky stuff lure in with beauty than you can kill the beggars off one by one but love am to death first. Naturally!

    Let’s say next game one buy is a” professor” who has great knowledge, combination of items in that personality on many different subjects. One can dress accordingly and one would be instantly recognise what role one plays from ones dress mode and behaviour. And knowing that rumpled looking being who has that ruffled hair, carelessly dressed person but under that exterior is great, formidable knowledge is hidden. So don’t mess with that person. He knows that he knows!!

    Next could be on “architect”, what a wonderful down load what a brilliant knowledge!

    Let’s look at a personality of the “Doctor” who has downloaded all the knowledge how to cure, fix up bodies of those who’s abusing of different personalities caused to the basic personality disharmony, aberration. Because of the programme he the “doctor” could now coordinate, harmonize that being that personality, more likely what he was doing is that he has downloaded again a new program the basic personality to which one could add again new personalities. He cured nothing, maybe the saying-indicator being a “quack” originated from there.:)

    One has become cured by having the basic personality re-installed once more, great stuff but good grief, what a mess that program has left behind since the original programs were still there but covered up now!

    The games have become very popular since they were simulative, had lots of diversity, just look around you still can see the roles-valances the beings still in and out there in every walk of life and truly believed that they are that and that being=personality.

    Of course in each game were rules had to be fallowed in order to reach that end part of that game than you got some rewards and the knowledge you have ‘WON”.

    And the acknowledgement you got that you are good, capable, better than others because you have not lost that personality [died off, eliminated in the middle of that game]

    Again just look around you. People killing each other with full zests, enjoy every minute of it, if not than they would not be doing it, beauty queens sashaying on stages and receiving admiration, attentions, they are being imitated, copied etc., good selling item.

    There is a doctor in every bush and we have millions of variety of dwellings and actors are highly paid to play out, dramatize their own and the valances of others.

    But that was not the end of the making of implants. There were many created and have become more complex.

    I could go on for hours writing of complexities, days in fact.

    Let’s skip the development. Finally a game was created where everybody could buy into, have different roles to play in.

    Huge item instantly went on the bestselling list.

    Here in this game were hundreds of different personalities created and were included from every imaginable variety of doing-ness, art, science, religion, murderers, healing, wars, winning, farming, heaven, hell, rubbery, family games, learning,[ know and not know] rulers, high ranks, low rank players..

    One could buy the role in the new game, the co-op, the jointly owned game. And that way one could partake and see how others were fairing, doing, winning losing and we could be there too cheering them on or feel glee and throw few stones at the buggers the loser or poison the whole lot off.

    To be a king one could become, but that role was very expensive. So only few were sold it was cheaper to be a foot soldier, for the middle fee one could buy the role of a Dr.[ you got your middle class established]

    Role of on artist was very expansive to buy since to be on artist needed lots of creative ability, and different energy flows which were very different from the lower=heavier stimulation level personalities. They have become eccentric rare birds, nutty as a fruit cake, “free in spirits”.

    In this new co-op game stops were created, if one was doing something wrong one would have to go back to the beginning[ died and to a new body] being born in order to continue the game.

    Look around you that Is all about

    Now there were interesting items featured in the game if you did something wrong as a penalty you could be out of the game or become a lessor player, lost your position and become a servant in a lesser role “below” others serving others.

    If you were good you could win a higher role and continue with that new role in the next game [lifetime]. That was the greatest program ever created, since it has also contained boundaries, punishment if one fouled up the order, it had laws to go by, rules and regulations.

    Many rewards were given out, like going to Heaven if one had no penalties going through the Game.

    If one did lots of wrong could end up as punishment in HELL.

    One could always work out of each role and better self in the game and then the reward would be a better more valued role which was more costly but one did not had to pay for that personality one could simply win it if one was a good player.

    Also one could be punished with being cut out of the group and isolated because broken the rules of the game. You got your “prison” here established; the “solitary confinement” where one loses self, the acknowledgement that one do not exists.

    One is forced out of the game for a “period of time” as a punishment for not being the good player not fallowing the rules.

    You can see every aspect played, dramatized around you. It is called the “Human life”.

    One of the millions of problems the beings have because the programs were never erased just over ridden because the person become bored and just bought a new one. And there was no technology created to reverse the affects of the implants.

    I hope by reading this you no longer wonder why is so much confusion the humans have in life, by playing the game.

    Only the tech of LRH’s can reverse the conditions, the effects of the implants galore by confrontation; erasing them in sessions. The name of the game the most complicated well designed implant name is the “Human life”.

    Which is the most valuable role?

    There is no value in any personality all of them need to be confronted, as-ised in session by each individual and have cognitions on what was the reason one went into such a game.

    There is no waving with the magic wand which could erase all that or find that bottom within the boundaries of science that would work to erase the effects of one’s activity, ones very own created history=universe.

    If there would be, again only self would lose out, since there would not be learning and cognitions which is the knowledge one can walk out with from this MEST. Universe, the grip from the Implants.

    PS: I nearly forgot the most interesting personality which was outlawed but was sold in the black market, under the table.
    Naturally it has sold most in number, huge profits were made. Every person who had the means bought or had a copy made, “Counterfeit’ originated from here.

    The personality was: get ready!!!!! “INVISIBLE”

  457. spyrosillusionist

    hehehe thanx –you too! 🙂 If I manage to be candid with my employers too, I may be Clear on the 3rd 😛

  458. Elizabeth Hamre


  459. Dear Michael,
    I found your analysis rather interesting.
    However, you said the following:
    “Scientists do not rely upon the claims or conclusions about scientific
    research found in popular books. Instead, they go to peer-reviewed
    journal publications. Good scientists do not simply accept that the
    conclusions found in the abstracts of research papers are valid. All
    such papers must be examined for possible errors in the experimental
    design, data gathering, data analysis and statistical reasoning that led
    to the conclusions before they are accepted.”
    This may be all very well and I do not criticize a mind who is willing to go that extra mile to ascertain whether a datum is factual or not.
    The fact remains that this came across as if something, in order to be true, has to be proven false first and then, when it is proven beyond any doubt, then it is true. This may work for MEST-related subjects like quantum physics and so forth but when one is trying to “measure the immeasurable” of the human soul there is a certain amount of intuition that must come into play and the peer-related publications do not abound in the science department.
    I am in no way trying to invalidate the scientific method of research. It is a valid method; still, it is a method that leads you deeper into MEST, in my honest opinion.
    There are other more spiritual, more intuitive methods of research. They have been maligned and altered and rendered ineffective by people with ulterior motives, throughout history. Nonetheless, they are valid.
    I am not even saying that scientology has been developed using a perfect methods of reasearch. In my own studies of the subject, I have found holes and unanswered questions but it, as a body of knowledge, does offer a workable key to understanding other bodies of knowledge that have been developed using methods of research, other than the scientific, “prove a datum to be false beyond any reasonalbe doubt or it’s not true” and dogmantic method of current sicence.
    You know, I know of a guy that is capable of contacting the Akashic records; how can one prove they exist by the current scientific approach? One probably cannot. Does it invalidate the existence of the Akashic records? Apparently not, since they are spoken about in a number of theosophic, occult and oriental texts. People have experienced contacting them and there are numerous reports of this.
    Bottom line is: I believe Marty made reference to the studies he mentioned in his post, not because he considered them a direct evidence of meter prescience (which is actually explained in the scientology body of knowledge quite saliently) but more as a mere statement that studies on the subject of human presentiment have been conducted and people have experienced this phenomenon. It is something that can be experienced.
    This is why we need to let go of adopting only MEST-oriented methods of research when studying the human spirit. It is also why, probably, very little progress has been made on this path in the last century, despite what many may think. Although, I am aware that it’s not really entirely Mankind’s fault.

  460. spyrosillusionist

    I once read by LRH (not remember where, sorry) that once you Clear somebody, and get him out of what he called a maze (the mind), he can then do the rest (OT stuff) by himself.

    I don’t think that meant that unless you Clear somebody he can’t do that. But Clearing is accompanied by an awareness of spiritual nature.

  461. Got it Mark. Thanks for reply. When in town a beer and talk is in order.

  462. Hi has everone seen the FLAG DOWN 2014 EVENT
    5 day conference in Clearwater from ex scientologists
    simply Google ‘FLAG DOWN 2014’

  463. Wonderful story Erzsebet.
    I haven’t gone over this particular area, But I have recalled ‘borrowing’ other beings purposes, abilities, intentions, mannerisms. It was a lot of fun. That is why, if you just quit and forget it, it sticks and is dangerous. I can see how this would be used to implant individuals. Make the implants fun and one will never want to lose them.

    What I did discover is that in my past examination, I have rarely recalled large groups of individuals. When I did, I was somewhat separated from the crowds. Incidents were usually myself or myself and one or a few individuals. I recalled very few large cities or societies.

    Two nights after reading your paper, while in bed but not sleepy, one came up. I was a member of a group of a couple of hundred friends who partied all the time. Lots of camaraderie. Then another where things were much more magical and large groups would compete and play and scheme.

    Thanks for this additional viewpoint that was there, but I hadn’t looked at. The original reason that I wasn’t looking at times of large numbers of individuals around, I haven’t yet found. It seems to have faded as I glanced at the thought, but I will find it in the future. That way, it won’t return.

  464. Erzsebet.
    I understand what you are saying about Vinair’s method of self inspection. An important principle that I have gained from Vin is to ALLOW THE INCONSISTENCIES TO RESOLVE. This has become key to my work. This, for me, erases counter effort and aligns with the eastern idea of ‘Letting the mud settle’.

    This does not necessarily require extra time. Once I let myself settle and ‘relax’ and just look, the resolutions just fall into place. I am getting better at being serene and open, while maintaining a purpose. The two do not have to be exclusive.

    You studied eastern philosophy many years age, so this may be second nature to you, but has assisted me more recently.

  465. Elizabeth Hamre

    Mark, I spent many life times omming to my belly button.. I never gotten any further than that.. that path is a dead end.. gives me shivers …and .that philosophy is first hand to me.

  466. Elizabeth Hamre

    Mark… My aim with confrontation is to erase the basic consideration, that VERY FIRST POSTULSATE WHICH MADE THAT CONSIDERATION INTO LASTING ELEMENT.. which still works the same way as it did when postulated into existence who know how many billion years back. V’s method do not take one back into past life, therefore it will not do the job. To key out presently is not my aim, I see how that works with some one who I see everyday.. That is not the answer I was looking for.. I wanted to know how the universe is created and the tools I have and use daily are the one which is doing the job.. Oh I am doing the confrontation with the tools I use. Simple, be there and confront take responsibility for your own reality which is your creation.

  467. Erzsebet;
    You have seen my multiple posts defining my work as primarily a complete examination of my past existence. That I consider everyone’s honest and diligent work as valid, But eventually, the actual source of fixed opinions must be viewed and understood.
    My comment was that Vinaire helped me find what you knew a long time ago.
    Sorry for my quickie reply earlier. I will try to more precise in the future.

  468. Elizabeth Hamre

    Mark… I used to think highly of him but no more… since he had something for you to use.. that is good, and I too have learned and have had sessions-cognitions because our exchange of communication.. by now 3 years of exchanging communication in different blogs I become very aware when people just recite learned stuff picked up from myriad sources on their way in order to fill the void till they find the truth for self which they are searching.
    There is a great difference between believed agreed stuff and from cognitions but you already know that.. He is compiling surface material which compiled by who know how many others. All that is seen through countless filters.
    Mark, I have taken into sessions the compiled concepts beliefs on meditation, spirituality, even what is infinite… I confronted sensations, feelings on the same matter on 4 flows and earlier similar.. You will be greatly surprised to learn when you see the wisest of all bloggers who disperse wisdom like it was manna from heaven, that wisdom is just well put learned words.. Empty since not experienced.
    By now we are used to listen to words and it is impassible[ almost] to differentiate if it is spoken from experience or learned from others who learned from others etc.. etc..

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