Scientology Thought Control

The following is a chapter passage that immediately follows another one that was posted earlier, Deconstructing Scientology.  A quick reminder perusal of the first passage will make reading the following easier.

Part II:

Such a psychotherapy has been shown to have the power to convert conscientious, caring, emotionally disturbed, and relatively intelligent people into cheery, focused followers who yet accept implicitly, and act according to, subconscious commands on the order of:

A. One should never fear to hurt another person in a just cause (most particularly when that cause is the cause of the creator of the mental therapy he engages in).

B. One should never withdraw his allegiance to any group to which he has pledged it, irrespective of how criminal and destructive he discovers that group might be (most particularly when that group is the one endowed with a monopoly on the mental therapy he is engaged in).

C. One should never show compassion to the weak for to do so will worsen the weak and the strong attempting to lend a hand. Only the ‘able’ ought be supported and assisted. Like in social Darwinist thought it is justified by the arbitrary datum that only further empowerment of the elite will raise anyone else’s boat.

D. That now considering oneself one of the elite, every time you engage in self-absorbed, introspective processes to make yourself feel better you are improving humankind’s lot. A sort of imbued megalomaniac narcissism is effectuated re-enforcing a-c above.

E. Personalities inclined to not go along with the mental therapy program and instead find fault with it ought to be disposed of permanently and with no slightest dent in one’s conscience for having done so.

The thinking becomes so inverted that the mental health therapy acolyte becomes fiercely contentious and combative about arguing the rationality of the a-e thought pattern and behaviors above.  In fact, this is the ingrained mindset and behavior pattern of a scientologist; and he or she will defend it as ferociously and instinctively as a she-gator protects her young.  Being utterly oblivious to any sub conscious (associative) mind system in himself the scientologist may even purport not to hold these views and yet continue to argue vehemently for their rationale.  Even when scientologists leave and disavow the organizations and the subject itself, they can be observed continuing to act out these patterns.  Little compassion and much arrogant, vicious fault-finding and attempts to undermine espousers of opposing views often marks the interchange between them.

That people can have their characters and long term behavior patterns so apparently permanently molded and that they can continue to argue the virtues of their programming ought not come as a surprise.  Many scientifically grounded studies over the past several decades in fact have demonstrated that that is precisely how sub conscious (associative) and analytical thought works hand in glove.  The subconscious (associative) mind system automatically rationalizes the content of its adopted narratives perpetuating the human proclivity toward creating, adopting and bolstering stories to make sense of the world.  Those rationalizations become somewhat permanent associative mind narratives.  The narratives’ matrices of associated ‘facts’ become the filter through which new information and perceptions are sensed and organized. The auto-associating mind system prompts the individual to use his analytical faculties to further explain and justify its conclusions.  The comfortable, if lazy, analytical function usually complies or simply abides and articulates the sub-conscious-associative faculty’s conclusions.  It most certainly does so when the individual is not on guard against misinformation, mis-association and irrationality common to associative mind processes.  And when the person is convinced that there are no such processes present – as the ‘cleared’ scientologist is – his analytical system can become mighty reactionary itself.

Many of these facts about how the mind works are understood and plied by those who mold educational, political and social thought.  This knowledge is used and affects us daily in advertising, business, law, politics, media, you name it.  Arts and sciences driven by it are increasing exponentially with the advent of the Age of Information.  Fantastic sums of money are invested into utilizing this knowledge to maintain the status quo and make populations more materialist-consumerist oriented to increase the dollars flowing toward the top of the wealth pyramid. Like it or not, we live in a culture driven, fueled, and maintained by consultation to and application of the advices of the greatest minds in human psychology.

The knowledge utilized to keep the masses slaves to the current economic system demonstrates how an understanding of these mechanisms could make a hypnotic ‘therapy’ as discussed herein possible.  They are the very mechanisms used to make scientologists slaves to their leadership.  The scientologist is kept oblivious to this.  Scientology keeps its followers ignorant by clever application of a-e above.  It teaches them that those who know anything about psychology are the enemy and that understanding what the enemy knows could poison the follower.  The enemy and his knowledge must be attacked and destroyed by any means necessary in order for a-e culture to function.  And so scientology ultimately becomes an insulated cult playing out an exaggerated form of that which it is taught to condemn.

In practice this is how scientology culture operates.  Its form of governance is closed-system, thought-controlling totalitarianism.  It closely resembles George Orwell’s 1984.  That holds parallel right down to omnipresent electronic recording, thought police, thought crimes, and Newspeak.   If a scientologist begins to cultivate thought patterns that question authority (or even explore the very mechanisms we discuss here) they are soon ferreted out by liberal use of one component of a lie detector (the electropsychometer or e-meter).  The discovered offending mind is put through rigorous reformation techniques.  That reform can include years-long confinement in re-educating concentration camps. It more often entails the loss – or threatened loss – of communication and communion with one’s family and closest friends and even business associates.

It should be noted that the psychological mechanisms at work in commerce, marketing, media and politics are not held secret.  The only reason for their continued negative effectiveness is people’s lack of energy or curiosity in learning of them.  And therein lies the most troubling aspect of scientology’s enforced information bubble.

It would seem that the road to recovery for a scientologist should include education in the very psychological mechanisms that were employed on him so effectively that they often continue to affect him long after he has left the cult.

271 responses to “Scientology Thought Control

  1. The more I read from your blog, the freer I become!
    Thank you Marty.

  2. Yes. Scientology is black psychology. Which is even worse than black magick. Because black psychology works, unfortunately.
    It takes someone like Marty Rathbun to decipher it.

  3. “That now considering oneself one of the elite, every time you engage in self-absorbed, introspective processes to make yourself feel better you are improving humankind’s lot. A sort of imbued megalomaniac narcissism is effectuated re-enforcing a-c above.”

    This. This is one of the hooks that gets set really deep, really early on in the grooming process cults apply to their prey. It is so important to understand this factor if one wishes to shed cult programming. Self-aggradizement feels good, it can become an addiction of sorts, and one becomes loathe to look to closely anything that gives permission to engage in it. It is only when one can finally reckon with the true cost of it in one’s life, that it starts to lose its appeal.

  4. Katherine Owen

    Thank you, Marty. Thank you very much.

  5. “That now considering oneself one of the elite, every time you engage in self-absorbed, introspective processes to make yourself feel better you are improving humankind’s lot. A sort of imbued megalomaniac narcissism is effectuated re-enforcing a-c above.”


  6. Funny thing, isn’t it. If you walk into a store or other public place and you hold an honest smile on you face, people in most areas of the country will respond positively. No hook, no desire to pull the person in to sell them something. Just an honest smile. I know I always tip waiters or waitressess more when they have that genuine smile to share.

    Problem with most scientologists I know is that they are trained more often to scoff and sneer at mere wogs. I used to get accused of being “theetie weetie” because I actually liked people and refused to be stern.

    What a world.

  7. Perfect summation Marty, however, I sense this isn’t the last word. I picked up a bit of metaphorical irony though: Those points above are an A thru E?


  8. Got pulled away before I finished that thought.

    So who is really making the world a better place? The person with the genuine smile, making others feel important and worthy of the affinity or the dedicated religionist asserting his own importance?

  9. I know you were not fond of the forum in the past, and still may not be, but ESMB for years has had many threads discussing these aspects of Scientology’s thought control and manipulations.

    It can be difficult, even maddening, to have back and forth conversations with people within word press’s comment system. If some readers are looking for expanded open, back and forth, Q&A discussions of these topics, or just talking to others exes who survived the CoS experience ESMB is a good place to go. It also contains some of the most interesting personal experiences and accounts about Scientology from its earliest days by some of the people who have survived to tell the tale.

  10. “D. That now considering oneself one of the elite, every time you engage in self-absorbed, introspective processes to make yourself feel better you are improving humankind’s lot. A sort of imbued megalomaniac narcissism is effectuated re-enforcing a-c above.”

    I disagree only on this point.

    The original purpose (and common result) for such processing was once almost entirely therapeutic. But it is becoming popular with critics now, to chalk up any perceived resulting improvements to “hypnosis.”

    That Hubbard repackaged, re-purposed and even relegated such processing to serve his empire, is not in dispute.

    I continue to enjoy the results of processing the mind, in my own life. (That I make my living delivering such processing should be disclosed as a possible vested interest of my own in saying all this.)

    But that I choose not to make 5x the income by working in other areas, is testimony to my belief in and observations on the efficacy and value of the processing alone.

    Do I think it benefits mankind? Yes – still do. Not so much in any magical belief sort of way, other than the miracle of a sort of “butterfly wings affecting the weather” of the collective unconscious. Something Jung apparently believed in long before Hubbard came around.

    Yes, true – the altitude of authority and its effect on expectations of results does play a role in processing – and the deeper into the authoritarian organization, the more this is apparent.

    But there is also the mechanical effect independent of such a hypnosis, of directing attention at areas of life and discharging tensions in that area by communication, which provides for easier and more productive thinking and living as a result.

    So outside that organization, and dispensing with authoritarian cult rules – even on the completely unindoctrinated – many of these process, originally purposed to help, and originally brought in to Hubbard from the field where help was being delivered, do effect positive changes and the occasional miraculous resurgence.

    This makes it worthwhile for me to continue working and researching the repetitive process, despite the shades of doubt cast by critics of all varieties, on this subject as a whole.

  11. A well-organized presentation with a clear look into the techniques developed
    by Hubbard for thought control.

    “C. One should never show compassion to the weak for to do so will worsen the weak and the strong attempting to lend a hand.”

    So that is why Hubbard charged such high prices in exchange for so little value. Since compassion could never be part of his operating basis. he had to inflate his own value.

  12. “Problem with most scientologists I know is that they are trained more often to scoff and sneer at mere wogs. ”
    Very true.
    As my father used to tell me…..It’s hard to see the good in people when you have your head up your ass

  13. One question that is often asked about Scientology is ‘Why would otherwise seemingly rational people continue on in such a group in spite of all the obvious wrongs perpetrated by the group?’

    A-E above would seem to provide some deeper answers to that question than I have seen posted before:

    A. The never fear to hurt another thought mode allows crimes to be committed against others, and leaving the group would mean accepting wrongness for committing those crimes.
    B. Never withdrawing allegiance just means you can’t leave, no matter what.
    C. The command to not support the weak, only the strong, distances one from most of society, especially in this age of social welfare. If you leave, you are one of ‘them’, the weaklings.
    D. The ‘megalomaniac narcissistic’ view of oneself as one of the ‘elite’ means that leaving would render oneself to be without any lofty purpose.
    E. Seeing the disbelievers callously disposed of, and agreeing with that policy, makes that fate something to avoided at all costs (even the cost of one’s rationality).

  14. True that Les. I have called it “spiritual supremacy” . Seriously, there are people involved in spiritual supremacy. It leads to ethnic cleansing goals just like racial supremacy.

  15. I have always thought it was unwise to grant allegiance to a group. The only things worthy of your allegiance are worthy goals – worthy as determined by you. If a group adheres to and advances those goals then the group is worthy of your support. When they no longer adhere to those goals they are no longer worthy of your support.

    Of course any one of us began our downfall when we abandoned or betrayed our own highest goals…

  16. Mark C. Rathbun

    Interestingly, this closely parallels the ethos and organization practices of criminal street gangs.

  17. Mark C. Rathbun

    That passage did not mean to impugn your clearly selfless form of practice. I was referring to the OT Levels where Hubbard indoctrinates the followers as follows:
    “Have you considered the sociological impact that you are having by auditing NOTs?
    You are turning free beings loose in torrents. This is bound to have an effect on society,
    especially when these start picking up bodies and turn up to join the team at their local org!
    You are not just auditing one pc at this level, you are churning out cleared beings in
    volume, and we will start seeing the results sooner or later on society in general. Maybe
    you have thought about this too, it’s nice to recognize the good effects you are creating!”
    I think my characterization of this type of inculcated belief was reasonable.

  18. Mark N. Roberts

    I see this degradation in some, not all, or even most. I have noticed these, or some of these traits in all Flag and IAS tours and management personnel who travel to various Orgs with the stated intent to ‘help’ or to straighten out ‘low stats’. I have not personally kept stats on the matter, but it ‘seems’ to me that the higher up in management one gets, the more vigorously the outpoints you mentioned are instructed/enforced/coerced. These outpoints vary from individual and each outpoint is apparent in varying degrees amongst individuals. Generalities do not apply.

    I always write my first comment on your posts before reading any other, so that it can be clean and not alloyed.

  19. Amen that.

  20. Additionally to the above, how else could Scientologists justify their crimes against their fellow man, if it isn’t under the banner of “spiritual supremacy”? What gives people the “power” to send someone else to the R.P.F.? “I am spiritually supreme!” What gives people the “power” to dabble in domestic abuse and domestic terrorism? “I am spiritually supreme”. What gives the M.A.A. power over the customers? “I am spiritually supreme”.

  21. “So who is really making the world a better place? ”

    I think it is more about doingness than beingness Les.

    Farmers that grow the food.
    Mothers and fathers that care for their children.
    Builders that provide shelter.
    Care providers that heal with healing arts.
    Inventors that create better solutions and teach how to harness the sun’s energy.
    Teachers that care and make learning fun.
    Bus drivers that carry people to work and children to school.
    The Inn Keeper that provides food and shelter to the weary travelers.
    The ministers that lend a shoulder to rest on and help people carry their burdens.
    The grandmother that hands down her cooking arts.
    The cook that provides pleasure moments for the hard working.
    Children that care for their elderly parents.

    And so many more. There are so many people valuable in this world that work daily to make it a better place.

  22. Ah! Yes. I have not been privy to this “higher knowledge” – other than that idea was communicated broadly on these “How We Will Handle the Planet” briefings. With 10,000 on Solo Knots, of course.

    So in that sense, yes – criticism spot on!


  23. As far as the “Church” value of Scientology, that is a personal thing as far as I am concerned and why I do not feel it is O.K. to attack people that are discontented with their experience.

    The purpose of a Church is to lift burdens from people or help them with their burdens. To teach a better way.

    Does the Church of Scientology currently lift burdens from people or place burdens on them? Are Scientologists “better behaved”?

    I am still in the plus column with my experiences with Scientology but I refused to have burdens placed on me that did not involve helping my fellow man. When I was asked to shift burdens to people, I left.

  24. The same could be said about auditing. Is it lifting a burden from you or putting a burden on you? Sec checks given with the purpose of making someone guilty or setting someone up for any loss, that is auditing to burden the P.C..

  25. Sorry, that is unholy.

  26. From the reference quoted: “This is bound to have an effect on society, especially when these start picking up bodies and turn up to join the team at their local org!”

    There doesn’t seem to be much of any evidence (or any at all) that beings who were once BT’s have turned up, as I think it would have come up in the sessions of some of them by now – and news of that would probably have spread, at least by tech terminals who have left the church. At least, I myself have never heard anything about this.

    However, I think there are many practices which operate on the principle that all beings are interconnected and thus any spiritual betterment of one would have an overall positive effect on others.

  27. “And so scientology ultimately becomes an insulated cult playing out an exaggerated form of that which it is taught to condemn.”
    Exactly Marty. Thank you for sharing your path with us. Looking forward to the book. Hopefully there is a bit of advice how best to penetrate this insulation to salvage our families and friends. I get now you are addressing those of us that have had some (perhaps forced) ‘penetration’ causing us to look but what about the guys that are still comfortable. I’m not happy to just leave this information with the ‘able’. Thank you for all you do.

  28. If one accepts the theory behind the OT levels, then it would follow that there are many more beings than there are available bodies, and beings would apparently prefer to be attached to a body even if they are not in charge of it, perhaps just to feel body sensations and to be part of a group.

    In that case, the OT levels would be ‘freeing’ those beings in the same way that your employer ‘frees’ you by giving you a pink slip. It’s not a favor. Once again Hubbard is saying one thing while the result is something else entirely.

  29. The aspect of no compassion hit home. I do remember when I received the news that my mother was very sick and possibly dying. I did the ‘standard’ CSW (Completed Staff Work) in asking for a few days to go and see her. It took about a week to get through the Executive echelon above me and, still today, I remember an Exec telling me: “I don’t see why this is important. My own mother passed away over a week ago and I am still here” I was speechless by realizing the lack of emotion, care and compassion our ‘executive leaders’ had arrived to.

    On the other hand the education in the very psychological mechanisms that were employed can, and should be handled, as recommended in the last para of this posting. A continuation of the enforced enslavement is a state of mind that only perpetuates that mechanism which, after all, was not self generated, nor looked for.

    Some of us fortunately have other concepts of compassion, care and power of personal choice.

  30. BTW I was reading my 1951 copy of Advanced Procedures and Axioms today and on page 7 in the first chapter lrh says “ARC with individuals in a very aberrated state is necessarily a very low ARC. It is not that ARC is bad but that ARC with low-toned individuals is bad.”

    LRH did not have a clue about mindedness. Compassion for his fellow man is low/non-existent. His ARC went low when helping s/one in a very aberatted state so he forced that on us or something? Anyway ~ hope he makes it thru his karma/lessons without getting any worse. He did do some good if you can make it past the BS.

  31. And please spare us the ‘context’.

  32. Mark C. Rathbun

    I wouldn’t expect you to see these things given your demonstrated degree of somnolence.

  33. Really spot on article Marty. I cannot wait for the new book.

  34. singanddanceall

    I’m pretty sure he did.

    The actual top part of the ARC triangle is agreement, not communication.

    Once you get a persons agreement, you can control him.

    Hubbard used lots of words to get agreement.

  35. Mark N. Roberts

    Good one, Marty. My word for the day. Well, nap time, talk to ya later.

  36. To me, your posts are getting better and better.

    Had I read your current posts some years ago, I certainly would have quit reading after a few lines “knowing” you were a “squirrel” and finally had gone crazy – despite the fact that I had been declared by that cult years before, family ripped apart etc. (nothing special, just more of the same atrocities many others have experienced).

    One doesn’t become a dedicated Scientologist over night – and one doesn’t shed that artificial personality over night either.

    – At the beginning I thought the reasons for my declare (dismissal) were so illogical that everyone would realize it at a glance and that it would be revoked, sort of automatically (in my heart, I was still a true believer intending to “life by Hubbard’s policies on my own, if necessary”)

    – Probably only two years later I started looking (prompted by my environment) and searching the internet. After finding the St. Pete Times “Truth Rundown” I could use some foul words for the first time to describe the “Organization” and its management (NOT Hubbard – the philosophy was still sacred, just misapplied …. but it started to have a few little cracks)

    – Then came a year or two of search, looking at other philosophies, methods, therapies, self-help, psychologists etc. – it was quite a disturbing period but I truly started questioning what I was doing and BELIEVING for the most part of my life. This went on until I took all my Scientology books and lectures I had preserved over the years and dumped them into the garbage can (where I sort of also dumped my life, being convinced I was an utter failure with practically no value, ready to quit). The strange thing is that I STILL believed to some degree in the “Tech”.

    – It took hitting the bottom to seeing some light and hope in the future – after a little while – and also some value in who I was – with a fresh look.

    And over the following years I examined, not systematically, but as it happened to cross my way, believes, patterns, policies, technologies, methods I held as a Scientologist – with the shortcomings, fallacies and downright viciousness becoming more and more visible and obvious.

    And just as one seemingly goes down in the process of examining what one has done and believed, so one goes up again afterwards. But one only knows this AFTER one has done it. Beginning that journey was the scary part.

    Your recent posts were great thought provokers.

    Take the word SCIENTOLOGY itself – as defined by Hubbard to mean “Knowing how to know” – isn’t that intriguing when you are genuinely searching for answers in your life (and don’t have a warning label at the door that you might get tricked), particularly if “it’s only true if it’s true for you” (without a hint that “we will make sure you come to the right conclusions”)?

    You have STANDARD Tech (the proclaimed ultimate goal of all that goes on in the name of Golden Ages and ever before) – looked from inside, any failure, shortcoming etc. is attributable to not meeting that “standard” and who in his right mind would object to upholding “high standards” (although the “standard” itself is and must never be examined).

    I must confess there is one piece of “tech” (read: advice) that I still find very useful and that is looking up words (that part) one doesn’t understand (but if I remember your earlier posts or some comments to them correctly, even that part was stolen from some others).

    Your posts will help me to help my family when they will quit being slaves, just as they have helped me.

    Thank you.

  37. In 1943, the father of covert hypnosis who worked for OSS, George Estabrooks, who was mentioned by Hubbard by name in the PDC tapes stated that the ONLY way to prevent being manipulated(note) is to become familiar with the techniques being used upon you.

    Note: By manipulated, he is referring to what Dr Robert Oppenhiemer tried to warn us about in 1952, in the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists: He was speaking at a psychologists conference: “In the last ten years physicists have been extraordinarily noisy about the immense powers, largely through their efforts, but through other efforts as well have come into the possession of man, powers notably and strikingly for very large scale and dreadful destruction. We have spoken of our responsibilities and our obligations to society in terms that sound very provincial, because the psychologist can hardly do anything without realizing that for him the acquisition of knowledge opens up the most terrifying prospects of controlling what people do and how they feel. This is true for all of you who are engaged in practice, and as the corpus of psychology gains in certitude and subtlety and skill. I can see that the physicists pleas that what he discovers be used with humanity and be used wisely will seem trivial compared to those pleas which you will have to make and for which you will be responsible.”

  38. Thanks 4chan, needed that hearty laugh. I’ve been there and done that.

  39. There is the bait and switch too. You come in, get an OCA, get told how f*&^*d up you are, get told, “We can help you”. They will “help lift your burden. Then the first thing you read is that the lives of every man woman and child are on you and what you do. Load you with an awesome burden you then feel guilty about not carrying.

    By the time you go a few a rounds with it, you have to keep the scales adjusted about how much of a burden is being lifted to you, and how much of a burden is being shifted to you. Now the burden of delivery is totally shifted to the public. They can’t deliver with ships and real estate!

    Look at the burdens shifted to the staff to work with pay rest or help.

    Who is reaping all of the benefits? The rock stars. David and his celebrities. Laughter! Some things will never change. Not even in the Church of Scientology.

  40. Excellent chapter Marty. I’ve been learning a lot from you and from the comments. Thank you.

  41. Roger From Switzerland Thought


    Reading this chapter was great and I was just laughing, laughing and laughing….
    You are really freeing yourself from all bullshit and approaching the subject in a total rational and scientific manner.
    I would like to suggest that you add to your posts and books an Appendix with all references and sources you are using for your Research and conclusions.
    This paper, if you would work it over…you could send it to a scientific Journal and it would be published (exclamation)
    4 Years ago I visited you and the only purpose I’d was to look into your eyes as you were one of those leaders I was following for 35 years in a slavish mode.
    What I saw was honesty and the will to free yourself. This alone helped a lot and gave me confidence that I can free myself too. Your sessions were so good that I never had again the reach for any auditing as freed my self of being dependent of any Auditor or a C/S to think for myself and reflect about myself.
    But I had my doubts that you’ll be able to achieve your purpose and err or fail on your path.
    Nevertheless this articke is one of the biggest step you ever took and my doubts are gone and I know it, as you proved it, that you’re on the right path . I see a nobel Price in the future for you, or a foundation or a grant from an University for your Research.
    Why don’t you use Vinaire, Oracle and Alonzo as assistant Researcher for your Project, they are very intelligent and articulate – instead of letting them fill your threads with with their wise and sometimes funny thoughts? Their first assignement could be to read Kahneman’s book..
    If you ever want to create a scientific foundation or something like this for your work I’ll be the first supporter.
    My wife asked me some weeks ago: ” Why is Marty wasting all this time writing, he should care about his child.
    Give all my love to Mosey. your greatest supporter.

  42. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    And by the way..It’s not only used to make Money and control People:

    Click to access WEF_HE_GAC_WellbeingGlobalSuccess_Report_2012.pdf

  43. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    “Fantastic sums of money are invested into utilizing this knowledge to maintain the status quo and make populations more materialist-consumerist oriented to increase the dollars flowing toward the top of the wealth pyramid”

    Are you 100% sure that this conclusion is sustained by rationality and enough facts.
    Or could it be an old associative pattern ?

  44. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    “Never regret yesterday……= ” Don’t regret the bullshit you made in your life, you are totally free to make some more bullshit…..

  45. Roger From Switzerland Thought
  46. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    and that’s the old way to measure happiness:

  47. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    Because of your piost I just lost about 1.5 hour of my worktime !
    Why don’t you just care about your kid ? 🙂

  48. And perhaps, of the Third Reich.

  49. Granted, when you feel others need you, you can forget about yourself. This in itself is a therapy. You thought you had troubles until every man woman and child on Earth needed you. Cool. But when you are set up for losses to actually help them, you are set up for a total loss.

    When you are told to contact every person that was sent to do OT8 and tell them they have to go back onto OTVll,

    When you are told to tell people they are not clear, when you are told to throw your own family and children under the bus, that therapy no longer works.

    You are then in so many ways told you have been totally unsuccessful in helping others or yourself. And this is the mind F*^k David Miscavige runs on people.

  50. You are busily throwing out the baby with the bath water. It would be more useful if you would separate out the destructive part of the cult and mention that there is, indeed, a valid therapy here. I certainly won and gained with it. And I would want others to have similar gains to mine. There is no need for you to knock the Tech. . Used in freedom and with integrity and decency it is good stuff.

  51. A person not focused on survival shall not care about Dianetics and Scientology.

    Spiritual progress is something entirely different than focus on survival. The person will survive anyway.

    Spiritual prograss occurs with spotting and resolving inconsistencies.

    Inconsistency in KHTK

  52. Mark C. Rathbun

    Thanks. You can tell you wife that I spend very little time writing, almost none while the little guy is awake.

  53. Mark C. Rathbun

    Thanks a lot for the feedback George. Good travels.

  54. Mark C. Rathbun

    Great demonstration of the principles outlined in the post. Super-auto association of two very dissimilar ideas as nearly identical.

  55. Martin Padfield

    …And FIFA! Not to mention many sales-driven corporations and governments, in my view.

  56. Martin Padfield

    …actually political parties, rather than governments generally, especially left-leaning ones.

  57. The idea that this universe is created seems to come from religious conditioning. Rational thinking goes against it.

    (1) The universe seems to emerge into awareness from behind the “curtain” of non-awareness.

    (2) This does not imply that the universe is created at the point of transition into awareness.

    (3) Therefore, we cannot tell whether the universe was ever created or it has always been there.

  58. Awesome post, George.

    You describe my own journey up from the dregs of Scientology very well.

    One of the things that has occurred in the last few years is that, as Scientology’s ability to apply Fair Game to its critics has deteriorated, people have emerged on the internet who have been able to remain positive and constructive in their journey out of Scientology.

    Geir Isene is one guy who has done that, and many more have been able to as well.

    The Internet is a very different place for those fleeing Scientology than when I first got out 14 years ago. It is much more constructive and productive of a healthy transition from Scientology to Real Life as a human being.

    That, itself, is one of the best “wins” that has been achieved by those who are transitioning from having been a scientologist.

    I heard someone write on the South African blog that Scientology was just a stepping stone for many people on their spiritual path. I think this is true for the overwhelming majority of people who were ever involved in Scientology.

    But it’s a stepping stone that you don’t want to linger on. You keep moving, and you don’t get stuck on it.


  59. The Vedic process of “Neti, Neti” (not this, not that) essentially references this universe of awareness from the ultimate reality of non-awareness.

    The principle identified with the unity of Universe is AWARENESS.


  60. Kathleen: “You are busily throwing out the baby with the bath water. It would be more useful if you would separate out the destructive part of the cult and mention that there is, indeed, a valid therapy here.”

    The only valid part of this therapy is that it makes one look. But then the destructive part is that it tries to condition that ability to look. .


  61. Kathleen wrote:

    “You are busily throwing out the baby with the bath water. “

    This metaphor is not really accurate: A baby is not tied to the bath tub, nor to the bathwater.

    But the good in Scientology is inextricably bound with the bad.

    So maybe a better metaphor to use for what Marty is doing is “throwing the bait out with the hook”, or “not picking the raisins out of the turds”, or something along those lines.

    Because you can not learn Scientology from the writings of L Ron Hubbard and avoid being trapped and eventually enslaved by it. That was Hubbard’s whole purpose for Scientology by the time he died, alone and insane and on Vistaril.

    No Scientologist I have ever met has confronted this. Anyone who has confronted this, is no longer a Scientologist.

    No responsible person who confronts the depraved mental and spiritual enslavement that Hubbard built into Scientology can ever recommend Scientology to anyone ever again.

    Unfortunately, that is how it works.

    So the process of moving on up a little higher is nothing like “throwing the baby out with the bathwater” but more like recognizing Scientology for the spiritual deception that it is.


  62. Mark N said:

    “These outpoints vary from individual and each outpoint is apparent in varying degrees amongst individuals. Generalities do not apply.”

    Very smart. Scientologists keep dodging the 500lb gorilla in the room by sheer sophistry, as they cannot get around the plain OBSERVABLE facts, that a spiritual therapy, does not need a paramilitary organization leaving razed ground in its wake. And that most of the sociopathy ingrained in Scientology can be easily traced back to its Founder.

  63. It’s Beautiful

    Reminds me of the show on National Geographic called “Brain Games”

  64. Here are some quotes from George Estabrooks (refer Wikipedia). Pay attention to the last quote.

    “I can hypnotize a man — without his knowledge or consent — into committing treason against the United States.”

    “Is hypnosis dangerous? It can be. Under certain circumstances, it is dangerous in the extreme. It has even been known to lead to murder. Given the right combination of hypnotist and subject, hypnosis can be a lethal weapon.” “The key to creating an effective spy or assassin rests in splitting a man’s personality, or creating multipersonality, with the aid of hypnotism…. This is not science fiction. …I have done it.” “During World War II, I worked this technique with a vulnerable Marine lieutenant I’ll call Jones. Under the watchful eye of Marine intelligence I split his personality into Jones A and Jones B. Jones A, once a ‘normal’ working Marine, became entirely different. He talked communist doctrine and meant it. He was welcomed enthusiastically by communist cells, and was deliberately given a dishonorable discharge by the Corps (which was in on the plot) and became a card-carrying party member. All I had to do was hypnotize the whole man, get in touch with Jones B, the loyal American, and I had a pipeline straight into the Communist camp.” “War is the end of all law. When we speak of keeping within the rules of the game we are childish, because it is not a game and true rules never hold. In the last analysis any device is justifiable which enables us to protect ourselves from defeat.” “Only a people who refuse to permit themselves to sink into intellectual lethargy and conformity, only a people who question and think . . . can be sure that hypnosis–disguised or direct–will not undermine their freedom and rob them of their very lives.”


  65. Marty is separating out the destructive part of the cult, identifying the ways and means of it. Marty has written books and an enormous amount of material explaining the tech, what works and why, and at what cost to the individual. Overall, he has come to the conclusion that the cons outweigh the pros and he would not advise a person to get involved. Where have you been? Really, where have you been. Your in a bubble that has not burst. Like Marildi , very much like Marildi, you cannot duplicate or accept the situation or truth without having to lament or rebut or reduce the argument. Glad you had wins, go audit or start a Mission is you want others to have gains like you had. Put up or shut up. My money is on the fact that your theetie weetie , if real at all.

  66. there is no baby in the bath water. There never was a baby in the bath water. You were tricked into thinking there was a baby, feel free to throw out the bath water.

  67. It is important to link behavior (demonstrated certainty of the materials) to actual sentiments that Ron had that he instructed us in. It is no mystery that good normal human beings, who believed in Ron’s “Buddhahood”, could become callous human beings through studying and accepting as truth this piece of psychotic make believe.

    This could be basic basic on Scientology’s behavior towards the family.

                                      “THE GE IS A FAMILY MAN

    The GE is a family man; the GE is lost without a family. It’s very strange, but Homo sap is a family unit. The GE is built on that basis. It’s fascinating, fascinating. It’s not important to know it but a lot of your urges toward families and so forth are not thetan urges at all, they’re the GE. The GE can’t survive at all without a family unit. He’s just as dead as a mackerel if he isn’t a family unit, whereas your thetan is just dead as a mackerel if he gets too mixed up in family units.

    You can’t talk to GEs; they’re kind of psycho. And by the way, you can fall into this dreadful trap with a GE. You see, he uses the MEST universe with which to build. He’s gotten very, very bad off and he has to use MEST materials all the time.

    So, you get this situation here with the GE, and your GE is busy: build, build, build, build, build. And, of course he’s got to have a family to build with.

    You get this terrific family thirst. And you get your GE surviving best and being loused up the most because of interfamily relationships.

    And your thetan, by the way, can much more easily go into a group. Families are not good groups; they’re bad groups.”

    LRH, From the taped lecture
    “Flows: Patterns of Interaction”
    10 December 1952

  68. Deconstructing Scientology.

    If I may… The sooner you finish it and publish it the better.

    Your word smithery is stellar brother…😊

  69. Vinaire,

    “A person not focused on survival shall not care about Dianetics and Scientology.”

    I think you are pointing to the core of the deception in Scientology, as Hubbard used this powerful word “Survival” to spin the subject of consciousness around, literally turned it on its head to capture scientologists.

    But you are generalizing that people not concerned with survival should not be interested in Scientology and it is sort of counter intuitive to what this blog is doing.

    Rather, Scientologists should reflect upon their experience and everything that has happened in Scientology, learn to detect the implanted idiocies and overcame them.

    The explanation for the blatant use of such words and memes in Scientology,
    along with how to detect them and overcome their hypnotic effects are extensively discussed on one of Marty’s recommended books:

  70. George: “I must confess there is one piece of “tech” (read: advice) that I still find very useful and that is looking up words (that part) one doesn’t understand (but if I remember your earlier posts or some comments to them correctly, even that part was stolen from some others).”

    There is a little weakness in the tech of “looking up words” that one must be warned against. This tech can be used to indoctrinate people by providing “special definitions” for words as done in Scientology. A person is subject to indoctrination to the degree he does not carefully examine the definitions themselves. There are “special definitions” in subjects other than Scientology too.

    This weakness in the tech of “looking up words” is taken care of in the following version.

    Subject Clearing

  71. ALL……….. Strange behavior in Scientologists come from Ron’s written word. All strange behavior in Scientologists come from the strange behavior or Ron.

    Some Exes still only use the word “Scientology” when critiquing Scientology. It’s as if Scientology is an entity unto itself.

    Scientology is the mapped out blueprint of the psychological condition of L Ron Hubbard.

    I am glad to see many Exes having the courage to call it like it is;

    Scientology is Ron

  72. Conan, what you are pointing out is covered in the latter part of my post above. A look at the link provided may be of help.

  73. Rogers posts got weirder as they progressed.

  74. Brian, this stuff that you quoted about GE is nasty indeed.


  75. L. Ron Hubbard talking about the sub conscious (associative) mind and Automatisms in Scientology terms. It’s there if you strip some fantastic tall tales of.

  76. Alanzo

    I don’t have any problem whatever, with the way Marty is going about doing what he is doing, but I think that you may be a bit rigid in your assertion that the good is “inextricably bound with the bad.”

    That is just not true.

    The process of “Reach and Withdraw” is still valid.

    I used Scientology to “run out Scientology” in a process that has neatly paralleled Marty’s journey documented over those same years here. And I am still using it.

    Really, it is not that difficult for an intelligent person to see it and do it.

    When I saw Marty and others come out on the Truth Rundown of Tampa Bay Times at the end of 2009, I went right down to the bottom of the rabbit hole into the forbidden LRH biographies, Jon Atack, the Criminal Timetrack (the McClaughrys), Arnie Lerma, Alan Walter and ESMB.

    I knew I’d been had.

    Yet I could not deny there was something powerful and effective in the auditing technology, and I set about using it on myself (solo) and studying it further in-depth with eyes wide open. All while staying “under the radar” and even getting a full OSA Security Check in Mexico along the way (and passing with flying colors! = )

    Years later, I am still extracting bits and pieces in the continuing process of re-evaluation.

    A better analogy than all those mentioned above, in my opinion, is reverse engineering a crashed spacecraft and building a completely different model. For civilians this time, please. Not for militaristic adventure and destroying in the name of help.

    Probably the biggest stumbling block for me until I resolved it a few years ago through studious research, was the hiding of “source.” Ron’s hiding of source!

    When that blew, it became just another potentially helpful subject. A fascinating and valuable subject that had been used for very nefarious purposes. But that was capable of undoing these nefarious purposes and their ill-effects, nonetheless.

    One promise Ron was good on was that Scientology is capable of running out Scientology.

    You seem to be insisting it is dangerous and/or impossible to reach into it again, once out.

    And of course you will insist that I have a ways to go before I really “get it.”

    But I “get it” on another level and I do not fault those who don’t. Few have the time and resources to engage in this type of study. Marty did a lot with “What is Wrong with Scientology” but ultimately it would be a lifetime of work for anyone.

    As it was for Freud, Jung and Hubbard.

    Because of the very nature of the mind, it will always and forevermore require a certain level of “belief” to get in deep enough to the mind to make desirable and effective changes in it.

    Yet that belief need not come from an authority or his organization. It only need be a reasonable engineering-oriented, workable “model” of the mind, such as found in Dianetics amidst all of the invented case histories and outrageous claims.

    Or use Jungian Psychotherapy or Berne’s Transactional analysis with an Auditor’s Code and structured session.

    The idea that auditors have wasted their time in studying the subject is simply not true. There are new and unique tools in Scientology – brought into use by Hubbard but not always apparently, invented by him – that serve quite well in helping others release negativity affecting mind, spirit and quality of life.

    When Marty said more than a year or go, “integrate or disintegrate” – that was very prophetic and valid advice.

    A lack of Compassion is what ruined Scientology for too many people. It is the missing element that since it was not provided by Hubbard, was provided by the auditors who did make it work for the good in many cases.

    I agree that the subject as handed to us on titanium plates, will forever flop for that glaring omission.

    But the knowledge accumulated in it by so many who dedicated their lives to it for the right reasons, can be integrated, importing Compassion into its philosophy and exporting processing principles and disciplines to other related and valid practices.

    That the practice of Scientology is plagued with hypnosis and belief inculcated by authority, is a point well-taken. So you see, I have learned to value your criticism, despite my disagreements with it as a blanket condemnation. Thanks.

  77. THANK YOU Brian!! My ex-husband who had three children when I married him (left the SO, married him 1 year later) … used to quote this ALL the time when I would say:

    Let’s take the kids to Disneyworld or the movies or this or that. In fact, he would rail against one of his friends pointing out what a “family man” he was.

    Now this same ex-husband — much older is being helped in his later years by his children and this ex wife. Haven’t found any regges, IAS members or regges etc offering to lend a hand 🙂

    This particular tape used to make me just SEETH

    For me I finally was able to see, REGARDLESS OF THE BENEFITS that some might have gotten, the devastation of most families, the extreme difficulty it is to DIVORCE intelligently oneself from scientology … LRH was an evil man.

    And that took me 22 years after having left to be able to say that.

    He’s just not a nice guy.

    I just wish those “Hubbardarians” in the field would take a hard look at their own lives to see … WTF … IF he were so great, wouldn’t my life be just a tad bit in better order? At least wouldn’t I have learned enough to not have hurt people tremendously …

    Good people do not HURT people through deception and delusion and being asleep. Good people make mistakes — much different.


  78. Roger From Switzerland Thought


  79. Thank You Arnie, and Vinay

    Valuable quotes and the lessons from them.

  80. (3) Therefore, we cannot tell whether the universe was ever created or it has always been there ..

    In studying LRH I found he has never defined universe .. he did, but in most cases he spoke only about the mest universe .. and he never said clearly exactly what he did mean really .. for LRH is a universe a game ground ..

    For LRH is this universe invaded .. which brought in a specific idea and closed out old owners of this space ..

    Has anyone created this universe and all other universes or are all universe an universe .. bloody question. Is this galaxy a universe or are all galaxies together a universe. So is there another universe?

    See what I mean. Is this universe from outsight view 10 micrometer great or what?

  81. Take another bow… I am standing up and my hands are high-fiving themselves :).

    Scientology ultimately and severely, thru its acutely dependency based system and reliance on Ron’s viewpoints, and what he deemed the contents of everyone’s universe, misdirects and misleads the soul severely.

    It will, in the long run, deteriorate the ability of the soul to determine the actual contents of its universe, create confusion in it by removing it from being able to recognize and handle its universe in the order it is in, stop the natural drive of the soul towards freeing itself from its limitations by replacing it with Ron’s drive which also substitutes the impulse of the soul towards just being simple and pure, and in harmony with all beings, with by the Ron induced ego drive to be powerful and superior.and in disharmony with those who do not follow him.

    Scientology, as Vinaire states in a post here, works because one is directed to look into one’s universe and the mere act of looking will result in things in it being discovered and separated or unattached from. The soul, after all, has the power to vanish, to dissipate, the things it itself created or allowed to enter into that reside in its universe and when it is given the opportunity to do so, does so wonderfully .

    The long term damage that Scientology does to those who become dependent on its tech to grow, is to me, quite destructive.

  82. Ain’t that the truth!!

  83. Marty, you are an Indie but you don’t know it anymore! Scientology is going back to the 70s where it was fun to be in it. We are free from the reigns of the church to apply the philosophy as we see fit. And yes, we do have our eyes open and study and read stuff… whatever we want and we find proper to know about.

  84. Well Watchful Navigator –


    Anyone can sit down and take the time to pick all of the raisins out of a turd.

    And they can take those raisins and go wash them with soap and bleach, and scrub each of the little crevices to make sure those raisins as turd-free as possible.

    And I am sure someone could consume them.

    But not me.

    Not when I can go right down to my grocery store and buy pounds and pounds of raisins that have never been part of a turd at all.

    So it’s not “throwing the baby out with the bathwater”.

    Is it?


  85. ewww – yuck!

  86. Scientology is indeed L. Ron Hubbard

  87. LRH was not a familyman so he made it a bad thing to be a family man.

    He had a family but that doesn’t make a family man of him.

  88. Yes Vinay, nasty is a good word.

  89. UNIVERSE (Tech Dictionary)
    1. a universe is defined as a “whole system of created things.” There could be and are, many universes, and there could be many kinds of universes. (Scn 8-8008, p. 27)
    2 . is an effort to locate oneself. (SH Spec 51, 6109C07)

    I do not agree with Hubbard’s definitions. According to his first definition subsets of THE ULTIMATE SET of all existence may also be considered universe. To me the universe means the ultimate superset of all existence.

    Subsets may appear to be created as one subset transitions into another, such as, lighting a match stick. However, the rules that apply within a universe do not necessarily apply to the universe as a whole.

    I have no idea how the second defintion applies to a universe unless one is equating BEING = UNIVERSE. But this is just a human-centric viewpoint.

  90. Thank you for sharing that Christine. How cruel to relegate children, wives, uncles, grandmas etc to such a diabolical delusional condescension. You can’t talk to a family man because he is “psycho.”

    Think about that secret onlookers. Think of how this craziness has put distance between you and your loving, caring family.

    Think of how you have judged your own love for family as some find of genetic psychotic ghost.

    Ron believed this piece of trash to the core. His own family condition is proof of this.

  91. “A. One should never fear to hurt another person in a just cause.
    B. One should never withdraw his allegiance to any group to which he has pledged it, irrespective of how criminal and destructive he discovers that group might be.”

    Responsibility! I recently lost a large peel of my onion, which I didn’t know I had left. Taking a person who had wins in dianetics, proceeded to scientology and learned responsibility with the catch 22 angle of helping the cherch/family/freinds one loved. By doing dastardly acts, going against a good ingrained person originally, to lie, make false friendships as to give information to OSA about their supposed enemies. Responsibility to who? Yes, if in the cherch and abide by their tech, you are a right person. But in society, where does one belong as they are overts/sins against your fellowman, should you fess up or not. You are made to believe that you are responsible for everything. I lived with blaming myself, had heartbreak for many years, thinking less of myself, because I felt fully responsible. That’s the peel I woke up to.
    Shit can happen because of other things and Ron’s tech, should one believe it is from an high authority and trusted as I had over the years which brought me to that state and then the suffering, which thankfully, I endure no more.

  92. Alazno: “No responsible person who confronts the depraved mental and spiritual enslavement that Hubbard built into Scientology can ever recommend Scientology to anyone ever again.”

    So strongly true. I only recommended one person several years back, who was quite weird and thought would help him. However, I regret now since it gave the cherch more money.
    Anyone who’s really interested can read a book for free on the internet and could also see the truth there about this cult.

  93. Which happens to be a true statement by LRH right Mark? A former BT is not instantly a trained person or hatted auditor at the same time, or fluent in Scientologese. So, if you were a former BT that had just picked up a body in Omaha what would you tell your mother and father when they asked “Where did you get all this ability from son?”. Interesting revenge. 🙂

  94. Cat: Scientology is indeed L. Ron Hubbard”
    In a nut shell (pun intended).

  95. Very powerful words deElizabethan. Thank you for sharing.

  96. Mark N. Roberts

    Good post, Miss Oracle.
    Your vision just gets sharper and sharper.

  97. First time poster…hi everybody! Feel like I’m stepping into a mine field. Man, some of you guys like typing, not that there is anything wrong with

    Was in for about 20 years, mostly as public. I suffered, but feel lucky
    compared to 90% of you. I’ve had a bit longer to decompress, also.

    I think I left soon after I did KTL and got onto more training. I was feeling

    My recollections are a bit foggy, but things started going bad.
    I think I had just finished pro-trs and was on meter course
    when GAT showed up. New reg cycles for things I had just finished, plus IAS membership crap.
    The 3 swing FN, the supid new e-meter drills. I was not doing well.
    Arguing about HCOBs with an iffy sup. Last straw…being told I would have to re-do pro-trs.
    I was out of there.

    And it seems things have gotten much worse.
    I would not let my worst enemy near an org.

  98. LOL!

    Just kidding, WN.

    It’s just a metaphor!

    Alanzo (:>

  99. Dee –

    Your journey out of Scientology inspires me.

    Keep writing.

    Keep communicating.


  100. One thing I don’t get is why a “proper Indie”, like yourself, is spending any time on this blog when he could use all his time using all the good he finds in Scientology of the 70’s (which I know most intimately as a staff member in a then really big org – almost 200 staff) and create a big and booming mission, org, movement or activity of notice himself. After all, you believe in the tech and admin created by LRH, particularly the Org Board, and it does hold all the wisdom anyone could wish for, does it not (to you)?

    Or is your group (and I’m asking sincerely) composed of a handful of ex-Staff, ex-SO etc. that are following the original tech and policy and no NEW people (and yes, this is my assumption and you may correct me on this point). If so, then you are doing almost exactly what David Miscavige is doing – rediscovering and preserving “standard” Scientology. You may object to this comparison as your motives (I really sincerely assume) differ widely from DM’s.

    I don’t expect you to agree with me but couldn’t it be that the mechanics pointed out in Marty’s post (A to E above) are still alive and kicking in you – particularly point E comes to mind.

    And don’t be offended that I picked your post to make that comment, take it as an honor, for I could make that same comment to any troll (which I really do NOT believe your are). You are a hard-core Scientologist, true to LRH.

    You glorify the 70’s because that is where your beginnings seem to be. I spoke to Scientologists of the 60’s and late 50’s (my twin on KTL) and what do you know, THOSE were the days to them! The beginnings always seem to be “the best”. But after that we should have left and lived our lives (not meant as a joke, for I did have that very notion when I completed my Comm Course in those old days before I let myself get sucked in). Shouldn’t you leave when a party is at Its height (then you are left with fond memories of it only).

    You were very much on Marty’s side in your comments to his posts when he was still defending “real Scientology” (yes, I follow this blog since quite a while and read a number of your posts) but when he left the flock you started to attack him. Don’t depend on him to “keep Scientology working” – do it yourself and use all the real Scientology you know unless you believe you can’t – but then you don’t really believe in LRH Tech and Admin either – for LRH says you can.

  101. I agree with you. Besides, what happened in the past can’t be changed anymore, so why remain stuck in it. I think we all learned from it and became so much wiser (and older – LOL)

  102. Thanks for the warning notice – but I didn’t mean to say that I’m a slave to “Study Tech” – the thing that I find applicable is pointing out (the emphasis) that you understand something when you understand the words in it.

  103. Hi Brian —

    AS far as I can tell — from personal conversations with Diana — LRH tried to have at St. Hill a semblance of a family life. The children had family time every Saturday evening with 16 millimeter movies in his study. He showed them Flash Gordon movies. And he ate dinner every evening with Mary Sue in a formal dining room – with his back to the rose gardens so he wouldn’t be distracted and would focus his attention on Mary Sue.

    LRH was a deeply troubled man who was trying to figure himself out — that’s what I believe. As he aged and as his movement grew and the lens of the world was more focused on him and the rumors and crimes committed he just got crazier and crazier. Paranoia ran to the tips of his toes.

    Some of us got swept into that vortex. The rhetoric was initially enticing and those of us who might have been somewhat (ha) messed up ourselves were able to find parts of the game plan that elevated us – increasing our own self-esteem. Something that many if not most people in the West suffer from — low self-esteem.

    For ME — as I said — the final piece of deconstruction was to be able to say — damn — this was one messed up and evil man.

    Which does not deny that AT HIS CORE – there is a spark of buddha-nature … just like everyone.

    Oh — and since I now sign as Windhorse and have been for many months — for my own personal reasons — please just call me or refer to me as Windhorse.

    My purpose isn’t to be the buddhist who once was a scientologist who once was a sea org member who once was a college drop out who once was … you get my drift …

    (doing my own deconstructing on a daily basis) —


  104. I actually should conclude this comment by adding:

    Why would you spend time on this blog if if was not exactly for reasons covered in the post (A-E) above.

    Give it some thought – and then answer, if you still feel compelled to.

  105. Robert Almblad

    Marty, criminal gangs is a pretty good comparison. The “glue” that criminal street gangs use to bind themselves together also works nearly as well in prison (like RPF) as it does on the street (like being on staff). But some gang members escape during their probation period when they are not allowed to associate with fellow gang members, which is like being declared SP and not even the MAA can talk to you.

    In the early years I was not “toeing the line” and I had to do A-E twice to get back into good standing with the “gang”. I felt I had no choice because there was no one on the “outside” and there was very little information about Scientology in this pre-internet age.

    This is not true today. Most people are “out” or “nearly out” and there is tons of information available on the internet.

    Being declared is a release from prison. And, because association with fellow gang members in good standing is not allowed, being declared can be very therapeutic in itself.

    A declared X gang member on the road to recovery.

  106. I was just thinking Windhorse, I believe that it was solo auditing that helped to push Ron over into the dark side besides his “above ness” to common moral standards.

    Ron discovered his world view and cosmology in solo auditing. Farsec, Ron as the Anti Christ, psyches are whole track demons, BTs.

    L Ron Hubbard fancied himself the answer to Xenu (his solo auditing on drugs and booze mental construct). Considered any critique an evil being. Governments, journalists, priest etc etc part of the cabal to destroy the “only road out.”

    Where did he come up with these?

    One answer: needle reactions in solo auditing.

    At some point he believed that when a needle reacted to a thought it must be true.

    L Ron Hubbard hypnotized himself into the distorted personality we all see and know. His mega ego fashioned himself into one of his Sci Fi universe saving heros. Through the subconscious impression that arose in solo autiding.

    He audited solo every day when he got up. At least that is what I read.

    Through his believe in the truth of needle reactions, and the thoughts that accompanied them, Ron fancied the world and his enemies through his natural Sci Fi mind filters.

    At some point Ron did not differentiate between actual truths that benefited people and delusional subconscious impressions. That is a dangerous and mentally unstable place to be.

    I have read some, on this site, who have been solo auditing for decades. And my impression of their mental health convinces me of a danger in trusting needle reactions as gospel.

    I would warn people about the upper level solo actions. I believe they are dangerous.

    L Ron Hubbard, the creator of solo auditing wanted to electrocute himself to rid himself of BTs.

    L Ron Hubbard drove himself into a deep insanity as a solo auditor. He attempted to navigate in waters he was utterly unfit for.

    And his ship floundered on the hidden rocky shoals of his own subconscious mind, opened up in solo auditing.

  107. Marty,

    I woke up this morning with the following thought on my mind:

    With the exception of a very few, if there are any at all, pretty well everyone that has left the cos, even after many yrs, is like the two yr old baby who has just been weaned from mommy’s breast feeding, and whinning and crying and throwing temper tantrums, and complaining how bad mommy is for weaning him or her.

    It is time to get on with a new stage in life and evaluate and learn everything you can from scn (from the successes and failures) and everyone else who came before present time, and learn to think properly and think for ourselves, and build our own bridges, to achieve the goals that we were told we could achieve, and maybe had a taste of, but were not sustainable.

    Hubbard’s bridge was useful to a point. Lets give him the credit of doing the best he could under the circumstances. There is no one else who has even come close to doing anything what he did.

    (And I qualify that with the condition that the good data, the useful data, in scn may not even be his, it may be channelled and cleverly disguised by some other entity or entities.)

    But there comes a time, when everyone has to take responsibility for their own spiritual evolution and growth and build their own bridge.

    (Like he said: he blazed a trail….now go a build a better bridge. Even though it was said in Dianetics, it is still holds true. )

    Read and apply the data in “How to study a sceince” in the full spirit of it’s meanning and build your own bridge.

    Find out what you do not know, and find that knowledge.

    Identify your flaws and short comings and build yourself a bridge to correct those flaws and short comings.

    Think for yourself and develop your own processes.

    All processing or true processing is not hypnotic.

    True processing is dehypnotizing.


  108. This gets into the weirdness of what happens when you trace out the “non-theology” of Scientology. Just as in Catholicism there have been debates on where the “souls” of innocent children go when they die young (hell, limbo, nothingness?), so too Scientology should be able to trace out it logical consequences of things like BTs. I think clearly it is the release / awakening of millions of BTs that must be driving the population growth on Earth through this new demand for more meat bodies, right? (tongue in cheek). If so, going OT is having disastrous population and resource consequences across the world. So please! Quit freeing all those BTs! We don’t have enough food, resources, and environment to make room for all their new meat bodies!

  109. I remember hearing at one point of brazen narcissism that it was OTs who had brought down the Berlin Wall and caused the collapse of the USSR.

    I guess during the Rwandan genocide though, they must have been napping or distracted by something COB said or did.

    In my own healing, this latest blog post from you (Marty) is another angle of insight on how I got trapped for a while, and paid dearly for it in so many ways:
    1. Make a stew of bullshit but put enough spices in it along with a few pieces of actual meat so it seems like it might just be a real meal.
    2. Give people a couple of good bites first — dig out an actual carrot chunk and a real piece of beef. Mm. Good.
    3. Apply all the characteristics of cult mind control to make people worship your stew.
    4. Make the stew criticism proof. You say there is a problem with the stew? No, either your taste buds are screwed up or you have done something to hurt the stew. You died from eating the stew? No. You ate it wrong, you evil-minded person! The stew is perfect and the recipe can never be changed.
    5. Make everyone buy and eat the stew. Again. And again. And again.
    6. When people show signs they are truly getting sick of the stew, shift the focus onto building ideal pots to serve the stew in.

    My big take away/lesson learned from Scientology is that any belief system that is closed, perfect, self-fulfilling, immune from scientific study, guru-driven, shielded from criticism, narcissistic, hateful of non-believers, and so forth is just one thing: a trap. If there is indeed a “way out” to higher consciousness, such groups are not it.

    The face, which should be a true expression of self, becomes a grinning Scientology death mask of the soul, the ultimate “via,” worn inappropriately in all events.

    Our emotions, our red flags of health and well being and threat and danger, are ignored and pushed down into a sewer of supposed erased bank, leaving us as blind as a pilot insisting on ignoring the instrument panel in the dead of night.

    Once suppression of the self is achieved, the Scientology persona, the mask of Hubbard, is installed and tightened around the head of the believer by sharp wires of fear and hope and shame, until the controlling part of what is left of the person is the happy mask and the emotional blindness of the scurrying, stats-driven slave, grinning like the fool in the supposed joy, wonder, and noble purpose of it all, kept to busy to even realize that the noble product is never actually achieved or delivered.

  110. Right, Path. That and the Scientology motto that its mission is to make the able more able. Its mission is not to say feed the poor and hungry and save the wretched masses. And if you are able, you must have money. And if the product of the Church is ultimate salvation, then there is no price too high that would make the Church “out exchange” (charging more than the value of what is delivered).

    Here’s an irony. In the religion industry, Scientology is the exemplar par none of being out exchange, since after 64 years of trying, it has never once demonstrated objectively that its core products of Clear and OT even exist. Any cost would be too high — and out exchange — when charged for a non-existent product.

  111. I agree, iamvalkov. As this (and other) blogs dissect Scientology and make sense of the experience, we are hopefully discerning destructive patterns that humans are prone to that have led to any number of humanity-stifling -isms and -ologies.

  112. Good point, Wise Fool. Our allegiance should be to our goals, and I would add, to values that drive those goals, values that are affirming of our fellows.

  113. universe is basically a playing ground .. and you do not put that in .. my question was how LRH has given universe .. let’s say for me, then is universe all universes wherever they are ..

    So again, LRH goes only about the mest universe .. and this is build with an idea of Overt and Withhold .. it means you were blamed for your past failures .. and so is scientology too .. isn’t it ..

  114. But I was there since 22 and I’m 62 now. I don’t think I felt like that – what you say. Gust saying…

  115. Sara, it’s not only Marty. It’s you and me and us. If we search for the truth we get it 🙂

  116. L you are still lumping us all together. It’s not like that 🙂

  117. “It would seem that the road to recovery for a scientologist should include education in the very psychological mechanisms that were employed on him so effectively that they often continue to affect him long after he has left the cult.” Marty Rathbun
    I love how you are still a few steps ahead of me. Paving the road out of this trap. But I’m looking for specifics like quotes from ron that prove this is what he did. Phoenix Lectures book is in the mail ~ that may open some clues for me.

  118. Brian — yes, I believe solo auditing drove him to further insanity; HOWEVER I heard a tape — highly confidential — not even on any of the OT Levels and cannot remember the name wherein he referred to BTs as fleas. He had Mary Sue auditing him or guiding him on this tape.

    Someone who blew the FSO took it and lent it to my ex and me — then we — good KA drinkers that we were, either returned it to him OR turned it back to the SO. Have never seen or heard of that tape since. This was in 1983/84 but the tape, a reel to reel was in the 50’s.

    LRH had DISDAIN for BTs/fleas … always. So — I’d have to say he was nuts for a very long time. Not just when he started solo-auditing … but when he would have someone (MSH) guiding him with the meter searching for “fleas”

    Agreed about the upper levels. I wouldn’t recommend anything beyond Life Repair. Otherwise OWs gets in pretty early and that can be wildly mishandled.

  119. Oh yeah, the glory days of the 70s. Can’t remember much family time at all, kids were generally ignored, staff pay was low to non existent, so not sure about the comment, ‘when it was fun…’ The FBI raid, perhaps? That was a hoot.

  120. Brian

    I follow a similar line of thought.

    I have come to think that the e-meter is not the key that unlocks the trap, but rather the key that locks it.

    Depending on a meter read to indicate to you what is true for you is dangerous enough, but to then fall for the sleight-of-hand where you are indoctrinated into believing that the e-meter detects things that you are not aware of,… oh boy!

    And how does one view something that he is apparently unaware of? Well, you fantasize. Armed with the trusty meter evaluating your fantasies, and “indicating what is true”, (it reads) you now accept the fantasy as truth.

    You look to the e-meter to tell you if something is there, if it is true, if there is more, when you are done, etc., etc.

    And all this while being guided by a set of questions created by someone who likely used the same method to do so.

    There is likely little danger in looking at your AVAILABLE past memories, other than some emotion coming to the surface… By looking at some memories, other memories may pop up… No problem so far…. and you will likely experience some relief.

    But pull out an e-meter, and follow the “technology” on its use, along with various indoctrinations foisted of on you as “truths” of the universe and the mind, and you open yourself up to a very messed up reality.


  121. I am looking for a co auditor.

    If you are interested please email me at:

    diogeneseii at


  122. Alanzo: “Inspires me. keep writing and communicating.” Thank you very much, and I will.

  123. There are no separate universe. That is just an opinion.

    There is only one universe made up all existence (spiritual, physical, mental, and whatever else).

  124. Compassion, kindness, showing interest, those are the missing fundamentals that make the product impossible to deliver on a large scale.
    That’s up to clear, the rest is a different problem.

  125. I have been trying to develop a habit of being more honest with myself lately.

    It is not always easy.

    But this post resonated with me.

    The reason I got into Scientology way back when was because I was a confused, disillusioned young adult wanting to leave home and make my way in the world but not having any clear idea what that was or how to go about it.

    Tony Robbins once said something like, “the cure for depression is to get involved with something larger than yourself”.

    I think that is largely a true statement.

    And so, back then, Scientology came along and I recognized intuitively that this might be a vehicle for me to advance into adulthood. Or at least it seemed that way at the time, even if not fully articulated.

    Then, a little while later, a sea org recruiter pointed out to me that not only the world, but the entire UNIVERSE depended on me joining the sea org right at that moment. And THEY wanted ME!

    Talk about getting involved with something bigger than yourself! A group the whole friggin UNIVERSE depended on and I was part of that group!

    That idea was reinforced by LRH via Flag orders stating how I was one of the elite of planet earth just for being a member!

    For too long, while in the SO, I was an insufferable arrogant asshole thinking all that shit was true. That kind of ego-stoking was the only coin that LRH had to pay me for a couple of years.

    The whole package of the promise of Scientology had to be accepted by me for the “elite of the earth” idea to be worthwhile to continue to hold.

    But after awhile, the pain inflicted by the Sea Org on all the rest of my dynamics began to take its toll and I left, not easily or particularly cleanly, but I did it.

    And I learned how to take care of myself in the great Evil, Abberated, unholy Wog World.

    Vestiges of the desire to be elevated above all the rest caused me to stay with Scn so that I could one day make it onto the OT levels and permanently “just live there”.

    But subsequently, after I completed OT4, deep down, I realized I’d been had, and that there was no “there” there.

    That was too much at the time, to fully face, so it took a number of years and increasing cognitive dissonance to fully depart.

    I’ve been out now for ten years and all the boogeyman that Scientology created or reinforced are de powered or gone.

    Thank you to Marty for his continued insight to help contextualize my experience, and thanks to all of YOU for your comments, which do the same, but from a thousand different directions.

    Life is happy.

  126. Amazing, they just can’t hear the facts. Scary. Goes to prove that indie scio is just as deaf as the church.

  127. And sometimes even that does not work FOTF2012! Though it would be a quick solution. 🙂 You have heard the stories of people that got rid of all their case on OT VII, then had to go back and re-do and re-verify the the level and the gains and then a sec check was needed and then another etc. etc. etc. Remember that rundown “End of Endless OT III”?. It is like end of endless END-OFF on services rundown it should be! 🙂 But, thanks for the pointer. 🙂

  128. FOTF2012,
    Today I had to do a video shoot out on Clearwater Beach. I had three hours to spend waiting for the awards. So I went to my old Scientology training and auditing grounds near Flag and Coachman Park. It brought back my old “path”. I can honestly say I was surprised to see a lot of Sea Org members but virtually only a handful of public. I thought the balance would be better. At any rate, these people looked like they were sleeping and some even looked like they were in a light trance. They avoided me because I had a very large video camera. When I approached the Super Power building, a guard stopped me and said that the building was “not open”. I took a few pictures of the outside which he gladly gave permission for. I don’t think I really needed permission to take pictures of a building.
    At any rate, the Sandcastle was the most provocative building on my tour because it was OT VII. It got me to thinking about Hubbard’s entities and how he was caught up in them. Someone posted an excellent summary on the subject yesterday. It is very interesting because we have a lot of odd spirits in Buddhism but they are impermanent in nature and thus not much of a problem. When I was doing OT VII, I remember that we were always trying to “blow off these BT’s”. IMHO this is where Hubbard must have gotten stuck even to his last days. He seemed to violate his own thinking. He was always looking for the “undercut” and he never found it. His trap seemed to be that he could never reconcile an eternal spirit with his own theories.
    Oddly enough, I never associated Scientology with science since I never saw Hubbard using the scientific method. For me Scientology was more like a leap of faith. I could have had a rational conversation with any Sea Org member today without any reservations. Thus Hubbard’s path has been replaced but I still cross with it when I wander into Clearwater.
    Kind Regards,

  129. The idea that an absolute Being stands above this universe comes from a human-centric speculation.

    This idea has been a powerful means of thought control in religion. The Eleatic school first identified a Divine Principle with the unity of the universe. This basic principle is “awareness with the outward form of motion”. Parmenides (Greece, c. 515 – c. 460 BCE), however, identified this principle with a unique and invariable Being that stood above all gods and men. This Being was later seen as an intelligent and personal God who stands above the world and directs it.

    Anything that stands above the universe shall remain behind the “curtain” of non-awareness from which the Universe emerges into awareness. We may only speculate what is behind this “curtain” of non-awareness. The Being of Parmenides, therefore, has to be a human-centric speculation. This speculation leads to the separation of spirit and matter, which contradicts the postulate that relative motion is the outward form of awareness.

  130. Mark N. Roberts

    Hi Eric, Brian.
    I can see what you are saying about “following” meter reads all around the universe. Scenario:
    You are supposed to find mass related to your dog barking too loudly, and then not loudly enough. You feel an emotion of irritation when you recall the sound of a dog barking. 2 inch fall on the meter. So you recreate the feeling and think of things that cause that emotion. You imagine a baby crying that produces that feeling. Another fall. Tone arm up, so you look for additional earlier similar incidents. Maybe there was a time when you were crying at some time so you imagine being irritated and crying. You think that maybe there was a red hat involved, and maybe it was 250 yrs ago, but you keep seeing this red hat, and maybe it says ‘Roll Tide’ on the hat. You get another fall so you think it must be associated with Alabama sports.

    This can obviously go around and around forever and drive you absolutely nuts. “Following” nothing but needle movement without any experience or common sense is folly.

    Learning, for yourself, what is useful and what is not can be helpful at times. FOLLOWING is the key word here. Being causative over your own path is not just a catch phrase here, but an important guiding principle. There are a thousand or more things that can make a needle move. Only experience and paying close attention will make it useful to you, and useful it can be if used wisely. Knowing what to ignore and when to ignore it will eliminate all the problems people have described. “Following” tics and movements all over the imaginary universe, becoming a slave to the tone arm is foolish and will only lead to disaster. Used wisely and sensibly it is a helpful tool.

  131. “….the postulate that relative motion is the outward form of awareness.” What does this mean?

  132. It seems to me the essence of victimhood. Always looking at “something else” (bts) other than oneself, as the cause of our experiencing.

    Teaching cause and making slaves; now that takes talent.

    But may he be blessed and learn his lessons. After all he was our karma. So where ever you are Mr. Hubbard, may you be happy!

  133. Here is my understanding of how universe begins. This is different from what we are conditioned to believe.

    • POSTULATE: The Universe begins as it emerges from behind the “curtain” of non-awareness.

    • We cannot tell whether the universe was ever created or if it has always been there.

    • Any Divine Principle that stands above the Universe may be relegated to speculation.

    • The principle identified with the unity of Universe is AWARENESS.

    • The Universal awareness shall include awareness attributed to gods or God.

    • The Universe is aware of itself.


  134. The underlying principle of universe is AWARENESS and not some Being as we are made to believe. We can look at Awareness objectively as follows.

    • POSTULATE: Relative motion is the outward form of awareness.

    • Awareness may be assessed objectively in terms of motion present.

    • All perception, including the perception of space and time, relates to motion.

    • This is a universe of awareness and motion. There is no absolute stillness.

    • The spiritual aspects of this universe are manifested in its inherent nature.

    • All values in this universe are determined by other values. There is no absolute value.

    • The idea that an absolute Being stands above this universe comes from a human-centric speculation.

    • A universal self shall have the universe as its outward form. They are one and the same.

    • Awareness is represented by the inherent properties of any object. It is “human-centric” to characterize awareness as a property observed in humans.


  135. Every single thing LRH ever said, he said it as TOTAL TRUTH REVEALED. And yet (as with a number of other “truths”) one day he COMPLETELY dropped the whole idea of the GE (the degraded being who lived near the stomach and shared the body with the “main thetan”) and stopped mentioning it. Suddenly it was no longer “true”. Yeah, Ron was never humble in any respect and of course he was hardly an enduringly loving husband or father (to say the least) and so you didn’t have to be either.

  136. LRH found in his work three universes .. and this is by his observation true .. if you speak with a person, you will find it true too .. you have your own universe, and the universe of others .. and the real universe .. but see, I speak only about real universes .. and I speak about different playing grounds and the art of play in it .. you say it is all opinion, but it seems not true to me .. look a a lion or a tiger .. the look at the universe is not very large .. but they look their world as it is ..

    So a lion or a tiger is a product of universes .. not only because you can be aware of such animals .. it is an idea in it .. and you may have or not have some admiration for it ..

    It is maybe not so good to speak out, because you do not share my view really. In my auditing I found that I am not native to this universe. I did watch all my imaginations about as normally done in auditing, but found at all time that this universe (mest) is a playing ground for holding you here and make you guilty for past failures .. LRH found some day late in his works, that there is a help button .. good work, but he did not go it to the real end .. universes are a playing ground .. but fixed on pattern ..

  137. POSTULATE: Relative motion is the outward form of awareness.

    If you are alone out in interstellar space, you shall be hard put to decide if you are totally still or moving at the speed of light. Your awareness shall arise only with relative motion.

    In this thought experiment, awareness cannot be separated from relative motion. We may, therefore, postulate that relative motion is the outward form of awareness.

  138. Of course Ron COULD have established or postulated a liberal/free thought directed church. But when challenged or disagreed with early on about past lives, rather than just say “ok” and tell folks to just keep auditing on their reality, he ridged and clamped down as being the voice and “source” of truth which contained a large dose of controlling the thoughts and attitudes of his followers who had to assume HIS viewpoints or else. I am quite open on the blogs as having found great truths in Scientology and as having had great wins as a PC and as an auditor. I do not regret my 35 years in the CoS or my admiration for LRH’s work. BUT … I also cannot ignore or in any way defend LRH’s affinity for heading up a Soviet style fascist organization, complete with lists of crimes, a deplorable “justice system” or its sea org re-education camp, also right out of the USSR. Or its historically tried and true method of controlling its members through shunning, banishment and loss of family. I like to think I was a compassionate Scientologists with many friends. Yet I was stunned by the rapidity of disconnection from people and loved ones I had been close to for almost four decades – how quickly they fell into the lock step/goose step of the thought controlled that Marty outlines in this post.

  139. Cece,

    The universe has no mercy nor sympathy for the stupid and ignorant.

    The kind of thinking that caused the problem, will not solve the problem.


  140. universe
    The totality of known or supposed objects and phenomena throughout space; the cosmos; macrocosm.

    1325-75; Middle English < Old French univers < Latin ūniversum, noun use of neuter of ūniversus entire, all, literally, turned into one, equivalent to ūni- uni- + versus (past participle of vertere to turn)

    What Hubbard designated as “universes” are the subsets of Universe as defined in Science. The overall basis of Universe is awareness. Hubbard divided this awareness in terms of “mine”, “yours,” and “others” as if they are independent of each other. That is not so.

    The The Secret of Hypnotism is

    1. Break down the reality of a person into compartments.
    2. Fix the attention of the person at the compartment level.
    3. Make irrational items appear rational within the confines of that compartment.

    The breakdown of Universe into “three universes” as Hubbard did, contributed to facilitating his hypnotism.

  141. Awareness is the basis of Universe as indicated in the post above.

    My hypothesis of Universe is based on the following three postulates.

    1. The Universe begins as it emerges from behind the “curtain” of non-awareness.
    2. Relative motion is the outward form of awareness.
    3. Motion has fundamentally wavelike characteristics.

    By influencing human awareness one can manipulate the human perception of the universe.

  142. After breakfast today, I am going to consult the work of the great Professor Irwin Corey on this (yes, he is still alive – turned one hundred years old a few weeks ago). I seem to remember the professor saying something like “the universe is like a poached egg which would rather be scrambled, but that the inherent desire of an unbroken yolk to remain in its infinite state can destroy even the most sunnyside up desires of the hard boiled.” Too much for me to contemplate on an empty stomach but I am certain it will go over easy later on in the day.

  143. Great statement.

    Our stories are not all the same while they have lots of similarities, by necessity.

    We all have been and acted like assholes at one point or another (apologies to all those who never have been or acted like an asshole :).

    Whoever got himself declared was lucky as he could start fresh, regardless how hard it was to start with (usually) nothing.

    The unlucky ones are those that “routed out properly” and are still in “good standing” as they are still required to be and act like assholes whenever a bigger asshole needs smaller assholes to fill the vacuum :), for they aren’t allowed to change, transform, develop, learn. It’s like being imprisoned in a Goulag and wanting to leave. If you “route out properly” your are being given a flat just outside the fence with the guards still watching you.

    If you get yourself declared however, they now insist you must never get close to it again. Not every ex-Asshole understood his or her good fortune immediately, but that’s exactly what we wanted, didn’t we?

  144. Cece said,

    “But I’m looking for specifics like quotes from ron that prove this is what he did.”

    That is hidden in plain sight. One of the most egregious form of mind control was to switch auditing/counseling into interrogations, by positioning Security Checking as following “The rules of auditing” and of “A formal session”.

    That is ridiculous beyond belief. Something that” looks” like auditing, and might even “feel” like auditing in the best of cases, is actually a method to extracting confessions, which they are later used to blackmail pcs into compliance. Including instilling the habit of “reporting back ” to the “auditors” who are now turned into operators.

    Do you think that Hubbard’s magic incantation “I’m not auditing you” makes it ok?

  145. I wonder how much Mary Sue was hypnotized.

  146. Could you please elaborate on that a bit more. Any links?

    Thanks, 🙂

  147. I find Professor Irwin Corey to be smarter than Hubbard. He is good at de-hypnotizing.

  148. It is quite a fixed idea in occidental religions that the universe is created.

    We cannot tell whether the universe was ever created or if it has always been there.

    Like any dichotomy “awareness – non-awareness” may represent a single continuum, and the two ends extend to infinity in either direction. The “curtain” described above is a transition point on this continuum, and not a point of creation. We cannot tell whether the universe was ever created or it has always been there.

  149. I find Professor Irwin Corey to be more OT than L Ron Hubbard.

    Prof Corey has lived to be a 100 years old, whereas Hubbard dies at the garden variety age of 74 years.

  150. E-meter may be useful in initial looking up to Life Repair but not much more.

    The E-meter reacts to both reactive and analytical thought. In the beginning it picks up the obvious reactive thoughts connected with an unwanted condition. But once the inconsistencies associated with these thoughts are resolved, it becomes increasingly difficult to distinguish reactive thoughts from analytical thoughts. This makes Scientology approach to case resolution uncertain.

    One effect of this uncertainty is endless ‘auditing of entities’ that occurs on OT levels. The other effect is conditioning where one believes that one is getting better and powerful while unwanted conditions persist.

    Thus, an E-meter may appear to be helpful in the beginning, but on a long term basis it creates dependency and leads to conditioning.

  151. Hi Mark

    OK, but that last paragraph sounds like you are no longer really using the “tech” of auditing, or of using an e-meter, as trained by the church.

    So that leaves me wondering how you use the e-meter and “be causitive over your own path” at the same time. You see, to me, it sounds like the first guy would think he was “causitive over his own path” too. (and I do understand that he is not closely following aspects of the “tech of auditing”)
    I guess what I need is an example that demonstrates your approach.

    I agree with you that ” There are a thousand or more things that can make a needle move.” So, that suggests that in order to use the information it provides, you potentially have to sort through the possibilities and, in the end, still only have a one in one thousand chance of being at all correct. On top of that, this supposes that each of the thousand possibilities is, in fact, a REAL possibility, and not something based on some unproven or perhaps totally erroneous theory.

    I imagine that if you were to be given any other tool that had such a massive error factor, you would quickly discard it.

    I am not saying that the e-meter is useless as a tool. It is very good at detecting fluctuations in electrical resistance between its electrodes. But for identifying nuances in significances in the mind, as filtered through an electrically, and chemically active interface, I think it is the wrong tool.

    I am a trained HSDC (“Standard Dianetics”) auditor and a specialist HSDC course supervisor. (also an academy “Professional Course Supervisor”, among other things)
    I tell you this just so you have some idea of my training in auditing and the use of an e-meter.


  152. Joe,

    Do you believe in permanent thetans, and that it is the agreement among these permanent thetans which is responsible for the creation of this universe?


  153. windhorse

    This might be the tape that you are referring to?
    Scroll down the page and you will see it as a “video” (visual transcript).


  154. Hi Eric

    I think that is it — I remember how abrupt he was with MSH — in any case, I heard about 2 minutes and the idea of wasting 57 minutes … well, not going to happen.

    But thank you for finding it. The title sounds right.

    Perhaps there are other tapes when he called the BTs – fleas. I guess here he calls them Targs.

    Bat s***


  155. No one, not even a Class VIII Auditor to comment on this, I will not ad suggestions or cynical remarks.


  156. This is Extreem Scientology: Master ans Slave:

  157. Age is just one parameter:

  158. windhorse

    Yup, Bat s*** for sure.


  159. Cat, here is more. This is Winston after completing his RPF assignment and The Truth Rundown:

  160. It’s a real stretch to say this excerpt is about “brainwashing” in any sense in which I understand “brainwashing”.

  161. Eileen.. You know back when so many were in..There was no such thing as the internet..and the Media that reported were sued or were Fair Gamed.

    It is 2014.. everything is out in the open now. We all know what the cult and Hubbard were/ are capable of. The exes that have come forward. Mike and Marty’s ( books) and blogs filled with information. Tony O’s blog plus how many youtube videos available.

    I know that those IN can’t look, but there are too many that can. Too many that should do their homework and look at the valuable information offered.

    I can not understand the indies. They know the story of Xenu. Hubbard made things up as he went along. He was a Science Fiction author. There is NO science in Scientology. It is a scam. Scientology is dangerous.

    And it is sad that there are so many that continue to believe.

    If there are those indies that are using the tech as a transition.. I applaud you. Decompress, Deconstruct and then move up higher.

  162. Mark N. Roberts

    Hi Eric. Good to hear from you again.

    Have you ever seen a SF or Fall and then a rise in TA of 2 OR MORE divisions within a few seconds? This is accompanied by a sudden change in the PCs indicators. He will get quiet, or concerned. This is a particular set of indicators that has a particular cause. There are additional indicators with different people. (This assumes there are no auditor outpoints.) If handled by standard tech, a PC can get into an unending grind or even cave within the next few hours or days. If the PC is given a repair, or ruds, and gets a small win of some sort, it can key him out of this, but this is an escape, not a handling of the cause.

  163. Mark N. Roberts

    Hi Dio.
    If there is one thing that I think that most all the Pros and Cons and Maybes alike will agree on is that you must take responsibility for your own state and advancement. If you want something done right, you have to do it yourself. Learn what you can from others and go out and get the rest yourself.

    Thanks for your comment my friend.

  164. But Vinnie why does this matter if it can not be proved? What does it have to do with the subject at hand?

    I believe this information will only confuse those trying to sort out their thought process due to Scientology.

  165. Mark N. Roberts

    Brian, good to speak with you again.
    You said:
    “I would warn people about the upper level solo actions. I believe they are dangerous.”

    I have to say, I have some agreement with you on this subject. I can’t say with certainty since not having done the OT levels, but having studied what I can get a hold of, they don’t align with my work.

    Oh, and as far as my mental health is concerned, I prefer the term eccentric. Sounds more classy.

  166. Mark N. Roberts

    Hi Eric.
    That, of course was a simplistic example of chasing meter reactions around, looking for maybes.

    By the way, did you find the meter useful in working out/assessing the wording of questions for R3?
    Also, I was never confident in finding exact dates with a meter, but I found that when a run is stalled, asking if the PC has a correct/wrong date/time, sequence of events will often get it going. I have found that the meter is quite accurate at discovering if this is the right item at the right time. Straightening out the PC’s time track seems to be one of the major purposes of auditing, audited or solo. Your input would be appreciated.

  167. Cat Daddy: “I will not add suggestions or cynical remarks.”

    Maybe you won’t, CD, but others no doubt will. I don’t get that there is much, if any, interest in discussion. And the playing field is far from being level.

  168. One needs to look at closely at religious conditioning which is slowly getting punctured by scientific approach. We can look at awareness (with its outward form as motion) evolving as follows.

    • POSTULATE: Fundamentally awareness as motion has wavelike characteristics.

    • Space is a measure of the extent of awareness as motion. Space is not empty.

    • Time is a measure of the endurance of awareness as motion. Time is not arbitrary.

    • Space and time basically describe the motion that is present.

    • With increasing frequency, motion condenses and space-time appears more solid.

    • The wave nature of motion establishes the property, or awareness, of different atoms.

    • Molecules represent more complex motion expressing increasingly sophisticated awareness.

    • Macromolecules provide still more sophisticated awareness that starts to approximate life.

    • This subjective awareness in humans cannot exist without the complex human structure.

    • It is human-centric bias that projects humanlike awareness to exist before the universe.

    • Awareness is not limited to humans and animated life. Awareness forms the very fabric of this universe.


  169. This tape demonstrates perfectly my thoughts on needle reactions and self hypnosis.

    Ron’s imagination and MSH’s naivety are instructively demonstrated.

    The OT levels are Ron’s imagination.

    You guys who still believe in the OT level cosmology are running imaginary realities fueled by Sci Fi concepts supported by your own associative thinking and feelings.

    And once you have a realization, some cognitive process that brings a “ah hah” moment………………… the mouse trap goes THWAP!!!!

    Welcome to the mindset of cult make believe as therapy.

  170. Scientology is an Occidental religion. To handle Scientology completely one needs to handle earlier similars. Scientology believes in the creation of the universe through agreement.

    Therefore, the point I am making is relevant.

  171. Here is something that Mike Rinder posted a while back. It shows the eerie similarities between the People’s Temple cult and Scientology:

  172. Thank you, Marty. Your use of a-e made me smile. I agree whole heartedly that to disentangle one’s mind and self from Scientology requires a real understanding of what was done by all concerned. Having been a willing participant is the hardest part to deal with, of course.
    Also, I wanted to share a thought I’ve been having fun with lately: With money being no object, buying various pieces of furniture and having them individually delivered to David Miscavage from PTS Furniture, always in large PTS furniture delivery trucks.

  173. OK.. First mistake? Believing that Scientology is a Religion.

  174. Hi Mark
    In one post you asked: “Have you ever seen a SF or Fall and then a rise in TA of 2 OR MORE divisions within a few seconds? ” No. I have never seen the TA rise that fast, but I would certainly expect to see some accompanying observable physical reaction to such a thing.

    You also asked: “By the way, did you find the meter useful in working out/assessing the wording of questions for R3?”

    When I was trained on the HSDC we were running R3R. It was a rote process. It was run “muzzled”. Even “handling originations” was kept tightly to an acknowledgement and then “returning the PC to session”. There was no “Oh, OK. Yes, we certainly can take a bathroom break.” except between ending and starting a new “chain”.
    We were never in any situation where we were allowed to do anything like “working out/assessing the wording of questions.”

    Regarding “dating incidents with the e-meter”: I have never done this experiment, but I would be so bold as to suggest that if you were to attempt to date the same incident twice, in spread out sessions, you would likely get different “exact dates” particularly if you were dating “thousands of years”, or more, down to the second. You may not get the same answer twice in a row, if you were to immediately date the incident again. (or have the PC date it)

    I am not the least bit surprised that auditors have difficulties “dating incidents”. PCs often have difficulties with it too. PCs, by my experience tend to date things much more loosely if they are not badgered. You get answers like: “when I was around seven or eight.”, “not long after the accident.”, “Last summer.”, etc.

    It would be interesting to do an actual “scientific” experiment to see if there is any actual truth to Ron’s whole “technology” of “dating.”

    I put my money on it being a total pipe dream.

    Regarding “straightening out ones time track”, even though I have been thoroughly indoctrinated in the importance of that, I think it is highly overrated. It would only seem to matter if the person had a sequence of events mixed up, and an evaluation he was doing depended on the precise sequence or time being known by him.

    When you are talking about isolated incidents that supposedly took place in the dim past, what difference would it really make?

    One stated use of “dating” is to better “orient the PC to the incident”, so that it “develops”. (becomes more real)

    My current translation of that is this: “The PC, having agreed to something about “the incident”, now feels that the incident is more real.”
    It is like the sales or hypnotism trick where you get the person to agree to one thing and then it is easier to get him to agree to other things.


  175. Mark N. Roberts

    Is it possible to save this recording and transcript? There are some people I would like to hear it and I would rather have it myself instead of relying on the link.

  176. He doesn’t look that well.

  177. Disregard the Imagery, I usually do

  178. Disregard the Imagery

    It’s not important and not my point.

  179. What do you think it is? A cult is a subset of religion. It has lot of religious elements. Read Factor#1.

    I am not mistaken.

  180. Mark N. Roberts

    Marty, Brian, Conan, Alanzo, Eric, I have something you may find of interest.

    As you know, I’ve been looking into superiority, inferiority, authority, subservience as of late. I have seen some interesting things.

    Then I listened to the 1952 recording of LRH and Mary Sue on the subject of BTs, Targs etc and noticed something very revealing and quite troubling.

    The point here is NOT the actuality of any of this, but rather his attitude toward believed lower level beings. He went on and on about these being Entheta beings, not Theta beings. They were, to him, less than Thetans, a lower form of life or awareness, small beings of less value, less worth. He never hinted that he thought they were beings currently operating at a lower level, due to some occurrence, but less than ‘real’ thetans on a basic level.

    Again, this has nothing to do with the truth or actuality of various entities, but of his basic outlook on the value of various awareness units, no matter what your spiritual opinion happens to be. He mentioned from time to time in other writings, that he considered himself and a few others as BIG BEINGS, more than others, better, more able or more powerful than others.

    This is a significant window into the mind of this man, and explains a lot about him. My work has revealed a lot about this subject and has given me an additional understanding of LRH. Not a forgiveness or a condemnation, but an understanding. He operated on a postulate of being above the rest of us, of being both the savoir and the boss. He once said he wanted more tigers to work with, that he was tired of playing with sheep. Yes, he wanted more challenging battles but not for everyone. Most people he considered would always be sheep, cannon fodder.

    This, I believe, is one key aberration that he never resolved, that he carried with him to the end, and ended up causing a lot of pain for a lot of people. But worse, it has barred real freedom for a lot of people honestly searching.
    My viewpoint.

  181. Mark N. Roberts

    Hi Eric, starting a new thread.
    Concerning meter reactions, excellent post you wrote. Each of your concerns are outpoints I have also noticed.

    I believe dating by assessment and re-assessment to be worthless in most cases and counter productive in that it is a large distraction while a PC is looking for subtle, important details. I was referring to a stall in the session. The PC stated the date as being when he was 6 or 7, during the spring. Asking if this is the right date will often bring out a correction of “No, it was when I was 5, just after school let out.” That being the correct date, for the PC, will often get it going again. The point being that if the PC had a wrong date, and the date had some importance to him, then it is the right question at the right time.

    As far as assessing the right wording of a question at the beginning of a chain, it is finding the right words which impinge on the bank to quickly get to the heart of the matter. Assessing: “The time you hurt your elbow, the time you twisted your elbow, the time you picked up a stove and hurt you arm”. Assessing these various wordings takes little time, quickly gets to the exact thing the PC is looking for and keeps him on the right track. Judging the PCs interest on wording and other indicators is just as (more) important as needle reactions.

  182. Mark N. Roberts

    Next. A SF or Fall followed by a rise of 2 or more TA divisions (2.9 to 3.0 to 3.1 to 3.2) within a few seconds, along with other indicators.

    This, in my experience, is the recognition of something just under conscious level, AND THEN an additional something closes in around the PC that is kicking in due to the recognition of the first. A FORCEFUL IMPLANT. The PC was given, by someone else, a strong reason, usually many times, not to look at this. This will snarl up a case right then and there. The PC is not ready to look at it. A Long Fall or LFBD is different. It is important to the PC and he will usually be able to get at the heart of it. I said usually. The PCs indicators and interest, enthusiasm, is critical and auditor perceptions are a must before diving into this.

    Also, you said that auditor commands, questions were very muzzled. I was fortunate in that my Sup had a good understanding of “UNDERSTAND and acknowledge”. An auditor must WANT TO KNOW what is going on with the PC. If you don’t fully TR-2 (duplicate) the origination, ask him. By duplicate, I mean really understand what he is telling you. He will be glad to explain it further and will often gain more understanding as he does so. This is not to say that you get into long conversations. But to be an auditor, you have to really want to know what is going on.

    And, yes, long multiple assessments over dating or anything else takes control away from the PC and puts it in the hands of the meter. Yes, it forces agreement with the auditor and the meter, the opposite of actual auditing.

    Thanks for your insight. Tell me more, Johnny Five need input. (Movie, ‘Short Circuit’)

  183. Mark N. Roberts

    Sorry to be so long winded and technical, but I believe parts of these comments about auditing to be part of the heart of mind control as you have described it. The devil is in the details. As a highly experienced auditor, you may have some insight into this, or you may recognize some errors that could be helpful to me.
    Thanks, Mark

  184. Not sure what you mean by that, “disregard the imagery”. I am hearing the central point of the talk as describing this basic principle – “whatever the person is doing obsessively or compulsively, have him do it on self-determined basis”. I believe this is a valid principle for overcoming “brainwashing”, hypnotism, obsessive-compulsive disorders, that kind of thing.

  185. What was your point, then?

    Btw, I always disregard the imagery – it’s obviously done by people who have no idea what they’re talking about as regards the tech.

  186. That was what I got as the central point too.

  187. vinaire,
    Last summer at the Florida State Fair in Tampa I saw an interesting public demonstration of hypnotism based on these “compartments”. The hypnotist
    got about a two dozen people to come on stage to be hypnotized. He used the technique of elimination to get down to one highly hypnotized person.
    These people were in competition to see who could be in the deepest trance.
    When he did get down to his subject in the deepest trance, that person followed every command on the stage. Very dangerous.

  188. vinarie: you write a lot of stuff down as like axioms .. but it looks like your view .. not really real ..

    • Space is a measure of the extent of awareness as motion. Space is not empty ..

    What that means finally? Why is space not empty? A lot of space is empty because it has to do with distraction of fields .. that is the rule for universes and has nothing to do with awareness .. you can also have awareness without any motion occured .. space came after awareness .. this is surely true ..

  189. Still using Scientology to think about and understand scientology. Sigh. Read Lawrence Wright’s book, you will see that scientology is not a religion, but a belief system.

  190. Does anyone know former scientologists who have gone on to become psychotherapists?

  191. Yup. This mechanism is very interesting.

  192. Yes, he is BIs. He went out 2D with Julia and got a SRA by Dear Leader.
    Compliance is Autonomy!

  193. Here is the mother of all hypnotic states.

    The Human-Centric Fixation


  194. Friend,

    If you want to learn something new, please get away from the filters of who wrote it and how he wrote it.

    You need to examine a piece of knowledge for itself in the broadest context possible using your own power of observation and intelligence.

    The moment you lean on your filters and past opinions for convenience you will only see what those filters and past opinions want you to see. And you won’t learn anything new.


  195. If you are alone out in interstellar space, you shall be hard put to decide if you are totally still or moving at the speed of light. Your awareness shall arise only with relative motion.

    In this thought experiment, awareness cannot be separated from relative motion. We may, therefore, postulate that relative motion is the outward form of awareness.

    POSTULATE: Relative motion is the outward form of awareness.


    In its most fundamental form motion is perceived in physics as a varying field that has wavelike characteristics, such as, wavelength, period and frequency. We may postulate awareness as motion to vary with different wavelengths, periods and frequencies.

    POSTULATE: Fundamentally awareness as motion has wavelike characteristics.


    The wavelength provides a sense of extent. This extent is defined objectively by the dimension of space. Space is not empty at fundamental level. It is filled with awareness as motion.

    Space is a measure of the extent of awareness as motion. Space is not empty.


    Space is simply a dimension of something. What is that something? Please use your power of observation.

  196. Mark N,

    Well, I can see that you began looking a bit more, but Hubbard’s deception and mind control are weaved into all levels of Scientology, from auditing to management, to all aspects of the parishioner’s interaction with his “Church”.

    Yesterday Tony Ortega blogged about the Garcia’s fraud lawsuit against the Church,

    The Church introduced HCO PL of 7 September 1963 COMMITEES OF EVIDENCE SCIENTOLOGY JURISPRUDENCE, ADMINISTRATION OF, as evidence for his arbitration procedure,

    Hubbard essentially implemented a Justice system from the Middle Ages, introduced by Pope Innocent III as an Inquisitorial System,; throwing away the more equitable Adversarial System of common law,

    With that PL and his onerous Justice Codes, Hubbard completely reversed all civil rights naturally enjoyed by Scientologists by virtue of being born in the West, effectively placing everybody under Canon Law, and subjected to his version of Papal Bulls,

    Here is something that caught my attention under EVIDENCE: “Session withholds may not to be used as evidence but evidence may not be refused because it also has been given in a session.”

    Very clever, they just use the Ethics folders full of extracted confessions and reports from snitchers, not unlike what is portrayed in George Orwell’s 1984 book.

    Mark, did you missed that sleight of hand from Hubbard? Or you still think that was ok, because the interrogations of PCs were prefaced with “I’m not auditing you”?

  197. One should always examine with mindfulness what one has been told, right then or later or whenever. But examine one must.

  198. How is that thinking with Scieenyology? I could just as well say you are thinking like a Scientologist.

    Get real.

  199. The first characteristic of a Scientologist is that they are accusative.

    They don’t discuss. They accuse.

  200. Yes, if you are alone in interstellar space, you may be hard put to tell whether or not you are moving. That would be awareness or lack of awareness of motion. A specific awareness. But I may well be aware of other things. I may be aware of space itself, of distant stars or galaxies. I don’t see how you can claim there would be no awareness at all.

  201. Where is Factor #1 ( Your blog or Marty’s)

    What do I think Scientology is? bawwwwwwwwwwwwwhahahhaa If I told the truth I would be banned..

  202. Scientology Factor #1: Before the beginning was a Cause and the entire purpose of the Cause was the creation of effect.

  203. Hi Mark

    Thanks for starting a new thread. Much more convenient.

    Yes, I see where you are coming from on that clarification. I have found “dating”, in this manner, to be helpful too. I would tend to just work with what the PC says though, and not “steer” with the meter. The PC’s date isn’t necessarily wrong on these instances, just not accurate enough to home-in on the incident he is attempting to recall. But if the PC doesn’t come up with a more accurate date, without much prodding, I would suggest that perhaps you should be using another avenue.

    The reason I feel this way is that I do not consider that what are being taken as “reads” on the meter necessarily reflect the “truth” of the data the PC is finding, but rather his “perception” of it as truth, or some piece of “the truth” as perceived by the PC.

    You stated this: “As far as assessing the right wording of a question at the beginning of a chain, it is finding the right words which impinge on the bank…”

    First off, I no longer align with the “construct” of a “bank” that the PC “has.”
    The method sounds workable, but I am more interested in how the PC feels about it than some supposed “bank”.

    The method sounds somewhat similar to “listing” style. One of these is going to be more “true” or interesting to the PC. I still would not tend to use the meter. I suggest that, as you say, (with a few edits by me) that “Judging the PC’s interest on wording and other indicators is more important than needle reactions.”

    Without assessing at all, you could simply ask the PC what wording would he like to run, and let him originate the wording. Take it, and if it fizzles simply ask something like, “How are you doing with that now?”, “What’s happening?”, etc., and work with the data he gives you. In other words use “Communication style” auditing. (2 way comm)


  204. I thought you would know how to use Google by now.



  205. Please meditate. Don’t just jump to conclusions.

    If you can’t see then that’s fine. I am not here to convince you of anything.

  206. BB: “If I told the truth I would be banned..”

    Banned by who and why? Could you please elaborate on that a bit. Thanks.

  207. Good reasoning FOTF2012,


  208. Oops, I see a disconnect what happened when I made my last post.

    My comment of “good reasoning” was in response to your statement:

    In the religion industry, Scientology is the exemplar par none of being out exchange, since after 64 years of trying, it has never once demonstrated objectively that its core products of Clear and OT even exist. Any cost would be too high — and out exchange — when charged for a non-existent product.


  209. You should take your own advice. Perhaps meditate on the words you are using. If you don’t intend to communicate, why bother to post anything?

  210. Hi again Mark

    Hmmm. I seem to have a different definition for a “division” of TA. My understanding is that a “division” is the distance between say 2 and 3 on the e-meter Tone arm. So two divisions would be from say 2 to 4 on the Tone arm. (or accumulated up and down motion where it adds up to that amount.)

    Yes, I have definitely seen the rises that you have given as a sample. What I have observed, most notably on meter drills where you have more time to simply watch the meter, that often, if you do nothing but sit there after something has “read”, you will more often than not experience this kind of rise. (Though not accompanied with any unusual physical phenomena.)

    Here is some added data that might help you understand some of my viewpoints on the kind of things we have been discussing.

    When I first got into Scientology, I went to a Mission. I did the Comm Course, which I loved. Myself, and several others who had done the course used to come in several nights a week “just to help”. (well we simply wanted to do more TRs really)

    The very next thing I did was supervise the Comm Course, with no further training, and no training as a supervisor. I loved it. Over time I got very good at “reading” people. I became able to spot very subtle “micro-indicators” in people. I got to the point where I felt I could detect such things as “intention”, change of attention (internal), degree of “presence”, direction and strength of a comm line, whether someone “meant” something or not, etc.

    To this day, when I am talking to someone, in person, I can often “get into their head”. I “drop my shields” and often get the pleasure of watching them drop theirs. This often happens with people on our first meeting. This leads to a pretty good ability to “duplicate” and understand others. I have become quite intuitive.

    So, you see, I like dealing directly with people. I am not much interested in anything that interferes with direct, open, honest, communication between myself and others.

    You and I would have short-cut these communications tremendously had we the luxury of speaking face to face.

    So, when we talk about the value of e-meters I slump a bit. I understand that what I have just told you is not common to everybody, I wish it were, but I tend to encourage anybody to consult the PC first, and only use the meter sparingly, if at all.

    You become better at “reading people” if that is where your intention and attention are focused.

    You said: ” But to be an auditor, you have to really want to know what is going on.”

    I think you nailed it with that one.


  211. Well think about learning to drive a car.

    You learn it and you forget about it It becomes a routine or automatism or MACHINE you as a thetan/human being builds.

    In this way you can put all kinds of Machines/Routines/Automatisms in your own or another persons mind.

    “What are your crimes” is such an automatic trained in reaction.

  212. It alsoo works in reverse. Hubbard knew Psychology and it links to Marty Rathbuns Post.

    Associative mind..

    You can train things out but you can alsoo train unconsious behaior in.

    Like blaming yourself for when something is done to you by another.

  213. I am glad, Hubbard indeed knew his Psychology. I agrree that the Imagery is inflamatory. The reverse process of what is reveresd would be brainwashing/hypnotizing not the described process AS IS in the sound clip.

  214. I am sure some people get it.

    I am always trying to improve my delivery.

  215. This is a postulate for a hypothesis. We shall see how it turns out. One is aware of distance stars and galaxies because light is motion.

  216. I doubt if one is aware of space in total darkness. Light is motion being an electromagnetic disturbance.

  217. Valkov, I apologize for my first response to you. I realize that something that is obvious to me because of my background is not necessarily obvious to another with a different background.

  218. “interstellar” space would be the space between stars. Calling it that implies the existence of stars. It is true that light may be photons in motion, thus there is some perception of motion involved. However it does not say anything about whether or not I am moving, which is what you originally said. I may not be moving at all, as far as my own perception of things goes. Depending on how big a slice of the universe is cotained in my ‘look’ at it, to me the stars may also appear to be motionless, if I look only for “an instant”. I may perceive motion if I ‘look’ over a longer period of time.

  219. Oh you don’t have to worry about me knowing Google Vinnie. I didn’t know
    what factors you were talking about..

    If you honestly thought that I would consider anything Hubbard stated as fact than you don’t know how a true critic thinks.

  220. I am respectful of Marty’s blog. If I were to state emphatically how I feel about Hubbard and his con I would be banned by Marty.

    I was making a joke.

  221. Thanks for the apology. I have recently acutely aware that most of the apparent ‘disagreements’ here and probably in general, are due to one person not really understanding where the other person ‘is coming from’, ie misinterpretation of what the other is saying. This can be due to factors such as unclear expression, but also can be due to assumptions, ‘reading into’ what the other says. This essentially creates a ‘straw man’ situation.

    There is what you mean, and there is how I understand what you are saying, which may be two different things.

    I think a good example of this is a recent altercation I had with another poster, when I said I thought “Ethics is Reason and the contemplation of optimum survival” was a pretty good defintion of “Ethics”. I did not mean mean “scientology ethics”, but he assumed I was referring to “scientology ethics”. No. I meant “ethics” as a field of study. At that point the discussion was already completely off the rails.
    “Misunderstood words breed strange ideas”. I call it the “Tower of Babel phenomenon”.

  222. Here is what I said, “If you are alone out in interstellar space..,” It referred to a thought experiment in which there is nothing beside you… no stars… no asteroids… no particles… no light… nothing… nada.

  223. Oh! I get it 🙂

  224. “Scientology is an Occidental religion.”

    I am not making a point about Scientology being a religion or not. The point I am making is that Scientology has ideas that are also present in Semitic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam).

    Therefore, Scientology has earlier similars. People are not just hypnotized by Scientology alone. Semitic religions have done a good job too. If it were not hypnotism underlying the behavior of the people during Dark Ages, then what was it?

    Scientology works much easily on people who are already in a hypnotic state to some degree because of their religious and cultural background. Hypnotism is not something new with Scientology. Scientology simply adds to it in novel ways.

  225. How does a true crtic thinks? Please explain.

  226. Yes, I am realizing more and more that I must listen very carefully to what the other person is saying. I find that people on this blog are becoming more sincere.

  227. FOTF,

    Very accurate analogy of Hubbard’s trap for fools.

    But at the same time, Hubbard left the keys and the directions to the way out of the trap for the intelligent and the wise, in various places.

    The universe has no pity on the stupid and ignorant.

    It will relentlessly screw you, steal from you, punish you, make you suffer until you smarten up.

    That is the missing axiom.


  228. deElizabethan

    Vin: Friend wrote in part: vinarie: you write a lot of stuff down as like axioms .. but it looks like your view .. not really real ..
    • Space is a measure of the extent of awareness as motion. Space is not empty ..
    What that means finally? Why is space not empty?”
    You come back like some professor not answering her questions but instead chastising her for asking. I was interested in your answer from your own thoughts and not a link btw. Thanks.

  229. deElizabethan

    Val” I’m with you on this: “I don’t see how you can CLAIM there would be no awareness at all.” Emphasis is mine.

  230. deElizabethan

    Interesting Vin. “I find that people on this blog are becoming more sincere.”
    I find that people are becoming more brave and communicating more to what they honestly feel, according to what the other people are saying. I’d say always sincere, no matter what Tone one may peg them at.

  231. Hi Vinaire

    OK, so following this line of thought, based on my understanding of your Postulates, I come up with this:

    Awareness is dependent on relative motion.
    Space is dependent on relative motion.
    Time is based on relative motion.
    Energy is based on relative motion.
    Matter itself, a composite of those last three, could be postulated to be based on relative motion.

    Throw that all together and one could hypothesize that the entire universe is based on relative motion.

    Relative motion could be postulated to be the common denominator of the universe.


  232. Eric,

    To me awareness and relative motion are one and the same thing. The assumed duality between spirit and matter does not really exist. Relative motion is the outward form of awareness.

    This is a universe of awareness. Therefore, it is also a universe of relative motion. I think that I have found the interface between Metaphysics and Physics that I have been looking for.

    The first realization for me was looking at the dichotomy of awareness – non-awareness, and realizing that this Universe could have begun by transitioning from non-awareness into awareness.

    So, this universe is entirely a universe of awareness. See Universe and Awareness


  233. I gave the answer below. Looks like you are trying to jump on my throat these days.

  234. Some people still try to put others down, though. But it is much less.

    More people seem to be following the Discussion policy.

  235. Vinaire

    OK, I don’t see it the same way, but it is an interesting viewpoint.


  236. Mark N. Roberts

    Ya got me there. When I was 11, I played with my dad’s meter and when I saw the term TA divisions, I immediately thought ‘divide’, as being portions of the whole. I took this to mean portions of each number, such 2.4, 2.5. I later learned the correct terminology. (By correct, I mean the terminology which accurately communicates to others) But I haven’t worked with others with a meter for some time, and the old idea crept back in.

    Perceptions: I would have liked to have you as an auditor years back. Have you seen my paper on affinity and auditing? I think you would enjoy it.
    I can send it, just a couple of pages. Mark

  237. That is correct. Nobody has seen it this way until Awareness and Motion was published on my blog.

  238. Mark N. Roberts

    Thanks for the info. I never considered a read as anything related to ‘truth’. I always thought of it as a ‘recognition’ of something. I thought of a cognition as primarily ‘the resolution of a confusion’.

    PS: Confusion: On OT-3/7/8, the hope was to free one from the total cluster f**k of what memories/track is mine, which ones belong to others. Once one’s perceptions rise to a point, it was believed that others pictures come crashing in and overwhelm you. This was the believed problem which prompted the policy, “No engram chain running after Clear”. Now, if this is fully resolved and there is no confusion or enturbulation on the matter, one is left with the realization that you have access to other peoples pictures/memories.

    This can become quite useful when trying to resolve a confusion due to missing data. THE DATA IS THERE, YOU JUST HAVE TO FIND IT. SOMEONE ELSE IS HOLDING ON TO IT. You just have to learn how to look. This ability does not have to get you ‘buttered all over the universe’, since you are already doing it all the time at some lower level.

    Confusions resolve.
    I have had a glimpse of this, but it may take a while to master.

  239. Mark N. Roberts

    Good afternoon Conan.
    Hubbards justice system.

    By Hubbards own words, paraphrase, When you f**k up, there is an underlying reason. Ron f**ked up. He had underlying reasons.

  240. deElizabethan

    Vin: I gave the answer below. Looks like you are trying to jump on my throat these days.”
    Hadn’t seen it when I asked the question, my dear. Hadn’t you thought of that before you jumping down my throat, hmm.

  241. I hade made those two responses together. So what’s up?

  242. This is not the only communication from you to me that has been evaluative and invalidative in recent times. I have no idea where you are coming from.

  243. deElizabethan

    Vin, After the first time commenting on the post, I thereafter read the comments per notifications I receive, and reply from those. Maybe that can be confusing and sometimes I do set them aside to reply after looking at others, but sometimes I do not. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.

  244. It is not confusion it is your attitude. You are in violation of Discussion Policy.

  245. Vinaire, you wrote to Friend: “If you want to learn something new, please get away from the filters of who wrote it and how he wrote it.”

    Saying the word “please” doesn’t take the obvious insinuation out of the category of evaluation and/or invalidation. Besides, it wasn’t WHO wrote it that Friend was objecting to – it was WHAT was written. This isn’t the first time you’ve taken it as an offence to you personally when someone disagrees with WHAT you are saying. That concept never seems to get through to you.

    I would say you are the one in violation of “discussion policy” since it’s only YOUR policy and you can’t just assume there is agreement to it except on your own blog. This has been said multiple times too, and it also doesn’t seem to get through to you. Maybe some mindfulness is due?

  246. I apologize if I came across harsh. What we are running into are Human-Centric Fixations here.

    I shall be very happy to discuss these fixations.

  247. By the way, Marildi, your argumeny applies to you as well. How mindful are you being in your advice to me that I be mindful?

  248. Marildi, I am doing my best to apply the discussion policy, and that is what I advise others as well. Violations of discussion policy simply gets into blaming others.

    If you find yourself blaming others, backtrack and apologize.

  249. Starvation is a full Stomach

  250. Vin, the point wasn’t that you were being “harsh” or that you were violating whatever discussion policy – that was a separate, secondary matter.

    The point was that you were being irrational. You took a disagreement about what you had stated and tried to claim that the disagreement was based on the fact that YOU were the one who had stated it. In other words, this is like saying, “Oh, you just disagree with what I wrote because I’m the one who wrote it and you don’t want to accept anything I say.”

    There was nothing in Friend’s comment that indicated such a thing. It was simply a disagreement, and if your logic was valid (which it isn’t) then anyone could say that about any disagreement to their point of view – and it would be meaningless. Can you see what I’m saying?

  251. Marildi I am quite interested in discussing with discussion policy in mind what you consider illogical on my part. Please elaborate.

    If you have nothing to elaborate then that would speak for itself.

  252. Mark C. Rathbun

    Take it somewhere else please.

  253. deElizabethan

    Vin: “It is not confusion it is your attitude. You are in violation of Discussion Policy.”
    Excuse me Vin, seems to me that you completely did not ‘get’ my full comment. Speaking of attitudes, I will rise above and ignore your superior one henceforth!

  254. I will be answering George’s comment as I did see it just now by accident. Maybe I should put the option to be notified by email when an answer is given to any of my comments so the comm cycle goes on. I used to frequent the site daily but now I don’t.

    On Eileen though I am answering right away as it’s just a simple answer. If indie scio is just as deaf as the church how about you drawing a conclusion without giving specifics. Please give specifics. Who can’t hear what facts.

    And as I said I will be answering George asap.

  255. Good post Arnie,

    The Power of Your Subconscious Mind, was the first book I read after I got out of school.

    That was 1973.

    Then a yr or so later, Iattended a lecture in Calgary by Joseph Murphy.

    I had the honour of having a pee with him at an adjacent urinal.


  256. Eric,

    Email me privately at

    Make subject:

    From Eric



  257. To put social attitudes towards children in perspective, here is a “Reader’s Digest” version of 19th century attitudes:

    It’s not like everyone was a “good family man” who cared much about children, or could provide very well for them, back in the old days in England, Europe, and America.

  258. To the extent that Hubbard based or used or expressed basic truths in his creation of “scientology”, there is a baby in there. The analogy is actually a pretty good one, as a baby grows up, and may grow up to individuate. And it may grow up to be a sociopath, a fascist, or a totalitarian dictator, or a Gandhi or a buddha or a Pope Francis, but it starts out having the potential to be good or evil., or both.
    In that sense there is a baby in the bathwater, and it is each person’s choice whether or not to perceive it. Each person creates his/her own “take” on it, but basic ideas like the Auditor’s Code, granting beingness, following good communication principles, etc are benign and timelessly valid, to my way of thinking.

  259. “There is only one universe made up all existence (spiritual, physical, mental, and whatever else).”

    That is also “just an opinion”, is it not? It is purely how you define the word for your own use.

    I guess I stubbornly refuse t be so “Vinaire-centric”! 🙂

    That’s not to say I disagree with everything you post, far from it. Rather than saying the universe is created, it may be more accurate to say that consciousness or awareness is created, and that apparently “brings a universe into existence”.

  260. What do you think of the Auditor’s Code, or the principle of granting beingness in daily life?

  261. You echo my experience and feelings about the “church”, although I did not get nearly as much training as you did, and was apparently nowhere near as deeply involved.

  262. What is the difference between a “religion” and a “belief system”?

  263. Yes Eileen, I do know such. But I do not publicly post such information. If you want to discuss, message me privately. Let me know.

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