Interview with


Marty Rathbun Is Scientology’s Public Enemy No. 1.  And He’s Okay with That.

55 responses to “Interview with

  1. Talk bout obsession. There is my bro Marty having his own life and this certified creep David Miscavige being the p[roverbably peeping Tom.

    You can get mad and stuff, or just think, he can not act any diferently than he does.

    Miscavige is in his own prison. Marty is free and lives a full life.

  2. Marty not mattering, having no effect, and nobody caring about him. I’m still trying to wrap my head around it.

  3. Midge Zylker

    “I’m so done with it” and laughs!

    Love-it, you and all you do!

    And, looking forward to your two new books.



  4. Marty Rathun loves his Beatiful wife and son.

    i am not the one to tell him how things work

  5. Midge Zylker

    And, if I might reiterate a couple of paragraphs from the above interview, as they are so poignant:

    “In the film, Jason Beghe describes you as “the Michael Jordan” of auditing, which is probably one of the most fascinating parts of Scientology to an outsider. Both from the perspective of the auditor and the person being audited, how do you describe or explain that process?

    I just discussed this with Tony Ortega’s The Underground Bunker, which is interesting just as a point of reference. Because he also brought up the Michael Jordan thing. I said, “Well here is my recognition after all of these years!” Because I continued to counsel when I was outside the Church, I really looked at what sort of set me apart or put me in this place where people would say, “Hey, he’s really good.” And I recognized that in all this complicated, sophisticated stuff that goes with it, the only thing that set me apart was my ability to instill confidence in somebody. And I came to the final recognition, having studied a lot of Hubbard’s influences, that he never invented this. This stuff was well in practice long before he ever got the idea of being a guru… So to the extent that you can inspire somebody and inspire confidence, you are going to do them good. And you call it Scientology or you can call it Rastafaria. Whatever you call it, it’s the same process.”

    In a nutshell, it’s what made those of us who received auditing or “repairs” from you so able to move on. At least that has been my experience!

    I also got that you weren’t there to become the next guru or life-long therapist. As you were so “good”, that I for one realized (after returning home) I didn’t need anyone validating some sorta level or continued personal or spiritual quest.

    Plus, your deconstruction of Scn. what a work of art. So insightful and straightforward-making total sense of the craziness that Scn & DM has became.

    I’ve said this before, but it bares saying again: I am a much better person since meeting you. I am what I was looking for before Scn that I had all along.

    Feel me?

    Your friend forever, M

  6. Gerhard Waterkamp

    Something in regards to “instilling confidence”; A person can have confidence in many things and all those things, a belief system, a job, a certain stock, or data and thoughts are all misplaced. Actually they represent part of the mechanism that allows mind control and to mentally imprison people in the first place.
    On the other side the confidence in one self and the confidence that truth exists outside of one’s own mind can give one the strength to escape mind control.

    Any follower of a belief system is to some degree or another slave to his/her own mind by misplacing confidence into the thoughts, “data” and opinions of this mind. We all are guilty of doing this to one degree or another it is part of the human condition. No wonder that people in cults look like morons, as they misplace confidence to the higher degrees in the contents of their minds than most.

    The mind consists in an overwhelming part of symbols and content created by others and if these others have an agenda and are allowed to fill the minds with content fitting that agenda the true believers will fall for it.

    This is the basic mechanism Scientology uses. That is why it preaches subjectivism and condemns objectivism. Your wins in session are real, what auditing does to you in the long run objectively cannot be looked at.
    So when we talk confidence I would say it is the confidence of the self to overcome the human condition to believe in things but learn to believe and trust in Self. And the recognition that the Self is different from one’s ego and mind, one’s thoughts and data, one’s identity, name or one’s possessions.

    This is where true freedom may exist.

  7. Marty,

    I am not involved in the Scientology debate as anything other than an interested bystander, but I’ve been aware of you and your blog for years (I lived within a could miles of Ingleside by the Bay for YEARS. How could I not?) and I want to state that as of right now, you are one of my heroes.

    The bravery of honestly confronting your belief system at the expense of your Self is tremendous and an inspiration to all. It takes a lot to do what you have done. May you have every good and wonderful thing in your life, and may you continue to live in truth.

    May God (or the universe, whatever you prefer) keep you safe and whole.

  8. singanddanceall

    Thanks Marty,

    your blog after I read the Debbie Cook email, which her email, caused me to look, gave me freedom to look, and due a proper due diligence.

    I have read every post of yours and those all so courageous posters that told their stories,

    why I laughed and cried and got extremely upset, OMG, no words express it.

  9. I am referring to the memo delivered to him at LAX.

  10. Marty, I am currently reading authors from the New Thought Movement, which contains literally a ton of concepts that later appear in Scientology. And those guys got it from Anton Mesmer or other guys in France in the 1840s and it keeps going back to Buddha, as far as I know, who said, paraphrased, that all we are is what we have thought, which Hubbard essentially stated in Axioms 1 and 2. I think people discover for themselves these concepts wherever they discover them. It is their use that matters not the source. Hubbard couldn’t grant that to people and that is causing his subject all kinds of problems today. You’ve no doubt seen Ron’s story hitting the wires. And that is just the beginning.

  11. Mark C. Rathbun

    Yeah. Attempted ownership was the problem from the beginning. His first major technical contributor made that clear in his book, A Doctor’s Report on Dianetics.

  12. CrashingUpwards

    I like the simplicity of that; “attempted ownership”. Fueled by his pride, ego, greed. Tragic ending for him. Whoever he was. There is nothing wrong with being a relay point for information which helps others. For him it wasn’t enough. Glad your doing so well and have mastered this game from both sides. In that sense I can see that you are about “done with it”. Thanks for what you did.

  13. Great interview. I like what you said about informing of the consequences of joining. I often think of the young people in the Sea Org who were never educated on the idea that they would never have children or grandchildren. And when you are a teenager, it is so easy to get caught up in adventure. I think about my son. Will he wake up one day and realize he has thrown his entire life away? Family brings more joy to life than he will ever know. It makes me sick to think about it.

  14. “It is their use that matters not the source”.

    Yeah. Look at how many people manage simple addition and subtraction , consider themselves mathematicians or accountants and never mention Euclid. You take on a matrix of thinking that is not your own, as early as kindergarten. Math symbols.

    On the other hand, thirty percent of Americans say they would rather clean the bathroom than solve a math problem.

  15. I still have some issues of self importance. I should just lay it on the table. I’d rather work on a math problem than a dirty toilet.

  16. The Matrix of thinking I could not make my own within the Scientology culture, was the fear of people, the exclusion of people, not letting people in, the vetting of people, the files, intel, and records kept on people, out of a fear that they might hurt you. There was big focus on not letting anyone in who could possibly hurt you. That’s not freedom. That’s not reaching. That’s not even living.

  17. I think Hubbard’s biggest overt / with hold was that he was willing to harm others but not willing to be harmed himself. He even preached, “Be willing to hurt another in a just cause”. But he was not willing for someone to harm the Church in a just cause. In fact, there was NO just cause to harm the Church! You know, that is sloppy math and perverted flows.

    Life is not a one way street for anyone or any group. He tried to keep things flowing one way after he created an intersection.

  18. And you know, this is manifest in the culture. Look at the sheer indignation on the part of the Church that anyone should speak out against it. Even after they subject a family to five years of domestic terrorism by stalking. Even after they subject and contribute to and support, a staff member being tortured for years. The group as an entity, has this attitude that all harm it commits is holy, and all harm bought back onto itself, is unjust and unholy.

    No, it’s not. A lot of the harm aimed at the Church today is very holy. It is people fighting back with a just cause. Because when the lives of every man woman and child on this planet depend on a private investigator toting a silencer and stalking a senior citizen, you be in the wrong game.

  19. Fascinating evolution. Follow-up questions: What are some of the sources for LRH repacked material that you found to most spiritually enlightening? And, do you think auditing, particularly Dianetic auditing, can produce what it purports (at least to some degree)…that is a sense of completion related to past moments of pain or do you think its just all subjective BS that was designed to generate income? I had some amazing memories come up during auditing that I subsequently verified with family members and moments when I did feel less burdened with what felt like dissipating charge. I never liked or trusted the Church but thought auditing did have some objective validity.

  20. So, you know, you get these followers and believers depending on David Miscavige to lead them to the holy land, when he can’t lead his own loving father into Denny’s for a pancake breakfast.

  21. Thank you, I understand where you are coming from now

  22. I watched your documentary last night on HBO and was stunned and sickened. I had no idea how terrible and twisted this “church” was, and how nonsensical their “creation” story is. The leader the false church is as mad as a hatter and reminds me strongly of the Jim Jones/Hitler type. I’m not religious but I will pray for the poor disillusioned people caught up in this cult among cults.
    Also I don’t believe that Tom Cruise believes in any of that hokum. I think he likes being treated like a little god.
    Good luck to you!

  23. Tom Gallagher

    “Honesty is the best policy.”

    Marty, you’ve demonstrated this maxim in spades. Others who have been the subject of this blog could have sure learned from this lesson.

    As an afterword, I comment less and less frequently. I too am so done with it……..

    With thanks and acknowledgement.

    I. Am. Free.

  24. Interesting to read the idea of getting as many under the radar to stand up and talk, and as you noted during the interview, many did so. I could even add that if you look at this point globally there are many thousands that have gotten out and eventually spoken about the abuses. Specifically I know of Germany, Mexico, Israel, Switzerland, England and even Stockholm. I am sure there are many more; I reckon is 1,000s.

    And it continues as just a after Going Clear was shown, I know of 3 under the radars that sent resignation letters to the church.

    So the word spread and it worked.

  25. Joe Pendleton

    Dan, what was it John Lennon once said about everyone borrowing from everyone else? All arts and sciences are built upon predecessors’ works and LRH should have acknowledged his sources with the proper respect they deserved. But megalomania and numerous other psychological phenomena drove him elsewhere of course.

    But having said that and having been critical of him many times for his fascist third dynamic tendencies and actions, I do acknowledge also Ron’s original contributions. I’ve challenged people on the following before and no one has ever answered. To my knowledge Ron was the first to put together actual specifically worded processes, which were to run with certain rules (auditor’s code, comm cycle, etc) and which demanded a positive (VGIs, cog) end phenomena. I would also add the codified Tone Scale and the specific worded explanations of Service Fac phenomena (such as process R3SCA) and many other works that I would consider largely if not wholly original. I don’t think, because of his many flaws, there is any reason at the same time to ignore or shortchange his accomplishments.

  26. Great interview Mark. You really have a lot to be proud of. It’s people like you and Mike that are helping so many with all that you do.

  27. David J Mudkips

    Great stuff, Marty.

  28. Hi Cat Daddy, two great videos. I’ve saved both links, I think they’ll be useful to show people teetering, being on the brink but not quite being able to take that step out.

  29. Another great and interesting interview, Marty. I’m so glad to have seen it.

    I’m nearly so out of it, too. I’m still drawn to the three sane blogs, yours, Mike’s and Tony’s, and look forward to caring less and less and less. I’ve hardly anything to do with scientologists anymore; don’t use the lingo, it’s my rule; and am just hanging around collecting information because there is someone I want to help to get out. After that, cheers to the bs, the BTs and everything else.

  30. marie guerin

    Another good interview.
    the search for understanding what happened would have been a lot more painful and taken a lot longer if it hadn’t been for your blog.
    Scientologists who want to hang on to the “dream” and try to make sense of what doesn’t make sense remind me of teenagers who refuse to listen to their parent’s words of wisdom. They do not want to take short cuts from people who have been there and to some degree are experts in their field.
    You did the research from a point of expertise in scientology and I figured I better listen because I couldn’t do it myself , it would have taken too long and I had to help some people fast.
    So there you were , doing all the work , giving it freely to those who wanted to understand , and I cannot thank you enough.

  31. Marty said:
    “Scientology is such an effective bubble and such an effective defense mechanism set up in everybody’s minds”

    I like the above description. “an effective bubble” and “an effective defense mechanism” both formed and fashioned by Hubbard. For me it was a bubble of conceit and a defense mechanism based on his misunderstanding of reality. I think Paulette Cooper made a great observation on the CNN interview. She said something like forty years ago this all could never have been discussed in the open. When I was at the 5th avenue New York mission in the late 1970’s, I remember meeting a young man who told me he was on an assignment to “take out an author critical of Scientology.” He was probably referring to Paulette Cooper.


  32. Mark — thank you again and again.

    I’m reconnecting with old lost friends. My never-in friends call me or text or FB comment about Going Clear.

    Now this mornings Ortega blog knits together what I knew to be true about Mimi and Tom — having known her husband Jim and the group in the valley and so much more.

    I found a website devoted to the memory of Yvonne Gillham Jentsch … and found OMG the date of my first marriage (last less than a year) which I had NEVER known/remembered having burned all evidence 🙂

    Love to you and Monique and the little one (who isn’t very little anymore — already


  33. Your blog is full of surprises and I enjoy it a great deal. If I may say, you’ve come such a long way, Marty. I’m proud of people like you. You inspire people like me move on up a little higher a little faster.

    I look forward to anything more you’re going to put up, M\arty. I don’t want the articles to stop!

  34. Having said that, I look forward to the time when I won’t care about scn. I won’t care enough that I stop following blogs. It will come.

    Perhaps I need a hobby.

  35. “Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief” has been seen by more than 5.5 million people since its debut two weeks ago.

  36. You are most welcome kind being

  37. “The truth will free my soul”

  38. Okay Marty, I am that point now. I can finally say that I hate Scientology and hate Scientology without being put in the biggot guiult corner.

    So there

  39. If you want the IRS to re-examine Scientology’s tax exempt status, it’s time to get real

    If you want the IRS to re-examine Scientology’s tax exempt status, it’s time to get real

  40. Marty said about Alex Gibney: “Because he really, in an emotional but very factual and accurate way, chronicles what the objective end product is. You are dealing with a subject that is so subjective, so you have to look at the objective result.”

    Me applying that concept that Marty gives of looking at the objective result is what is helping me now the most.

  41. The singer on the right is Morgan James plus all terrific musicians.

  42. These musicians are definitely not socked into any subjective cult. And how do you like their objective results? I’ll bet they didn’t have to pay any cult millions of dollars in order to be happy.

  43. Lesser artists borrow, great artists steal.

    “A good composer does not imitate; he steals.”

    “Lesser artists borrow, great artists steal.”


  44. Hopefully Marty will answer. Meanwhile the results of auditing by Phil
    Spickler who worked with Hubbard in the early fifties.

  45. the whole music channel has my love.

  46. Great interviews, Marty. I’m always on the lookout for anything new from you. I’d hate to have your blog discontinued so hope that every so often you find something to share with us.

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