Purpose of life might be reducible to the following simplicity:

We serve that which and those whom we care about in the best manner we see fit.

Life becomes most complicated by the arrogant who attempt to dictate to others whom, that which, and how they must serve.

282 responses to “Purpose

  1. Perfect!

  2. On a deeper, more esoteric *infinite* level, where I have come to consider that we are all one, and comprise the “Universal Mind”, which many think of as GOD, and that we are embarked on an ever expanding quest to understand what and what we are through observation of how we respond to the various challenges and vagaries offered up though *LIFE*. Therefor, the primary purpose (or imperative, if you will) of life would be simply “TO EXPERIENCE.”

  3. The CO$ gets “first place in the world award” for that.

    That is the definition of cult.


  4. Tom Gallagher

    Irreducible Minimums benefit keen observers. They can even wake up others…..

    Thanks Marty for this one!

  5. So very true!

  6. Love your observations Marty.

  7. Agreed. And I suppose even the arrogant – who attempt to dictate how, to whom or to what others should serve – are, for the most part, attempting to serve in the manner they think best.

  8. Katherine Owen

    Wow. That is editing as art.

  9. grannydeepsea

    Nicely Zenned.
    Does God have an advertising agent?? Does Mother Earth?? lol

  10. I agree, and add you should put as much distance between you and an adult demanding your total attention for no reason than their power to control..
    Take care and protect those you love.

  11. gretchen dewire

    We are all on a spiritual journey, some of us just dont realize it yet. Good to hear from you.

  12. I’ve had the same considerations, except that I’ve gone back and forth between “to experience” and “to play” as the primary purpose. But they may just be two sides of the same coin.

  13. “So this is the Path I have come by.”
    – Buddhist review of knowledge

  14. Yes, Marildi, and probably the more that we can kepp “to experience” and “to play” as synonymous, the better shape we will be in.

  15. “The desire and effort to control others is the greatest of evils” MNR

    This is not the same as the the ability to direct the actions of those in your charge for the ethical benefit of those and yourself. This is control for the purpose of control. We have all seen it, we have all done it. I have written several detailed articles on the exact source of this intention.

    Let me know if you would like any of these. Marknr@hushmail.com.

  16. “You gotta serve somebody”

    Bob Dylan

  17. Yep. Play seems to be at the heart of living on a light, spiritual level. Here’s a video you might enjoy – it’s about creativity and how play fits in.

  18. This post made me think of the deleterious policy Sea Org members are subject to, namely, one has to do any job assigned. One’s own choice, work experience, aptitude, not to mention personal preference and desire to do the assigned job are irrelevant.

  19. Hey, I hope you all can be merciful for a minute. Not meaning Marty because he has been most merciful with my communications, I have this affliction or “spell” that I can only remember things when I am asked. So I can only find out who I am through other’s curiosity. This has been a spell. I mean, I go through my days without thinking at all unless I am met by curiosity. So, I depend on curiosity to find out about myself. It is like the key to me is within others.

    So, I have traveled through other minds. I do not want to say here about the minds I have traveled through. Because I just think so many people would find it too disturbing.

    But, I traveled through Hubbard’s mind . and I found it to be a test. Just like traveling through the mind of a coal miner, a drug addict, an orphan, a foster parent, a drug addict, a prostitute, a pimp, a con artist, a stock broker, a hippie, a musician, , an executive, a doctor, a dentist, a politician, I could go on and on.

    I still don’t get it how people traveled outside of their own mind just once and got all totally crippled from the experience. of traveling through Hubbard’s mind.

    I met up with an 84 year old man today and walked through his mind for two hours,, and wow, what a beautiful experience, He took me to places I never would have known without his mind. This impacted my life in such a beautiful way.

    If it is your hat to travel through the minds of other people, ………………

  20. I know what love is. And that is what mattered to me. If others are upset because they did not go “OT”, I mean, they just had different goals.

  21. The greatest dichotomy in Scientology it is that is so personal and so public at the same time. But if you don’t have the strength to draw the lines in the sand you can’t find out how you really are. Which bleeds back into conditions. At the end of the day, everyone finds out who they really are.

  22. All I know, is that I didn’t love anybody, until I spent 14 years getting auditing. And then, I loved somebody. And then, it all made sense. I did not have to consult a dictionary. The whole world made sense. The structure, the reason, the laws.

    Unfortunately that was the day that Scientology as a culture stopped making any sense. There is a time in everyone’s life when they are released from the Church. It does not discount everything you learned to make that possible.

    I don’t really understand the people that push the idea you must be total effect of them to become total cause of yourself.

    I mean, I have seen Scientologists push aside love as if it were a burden. They offload their family and children. It happened to me too., A business can not give you love. That is something that is only possible from within. And without it. nothing makes sense and you are fair game on the streets.

    The Church of Scientology, does not know what it’s like, to love somebody. And it all comes down that. Every upset.

  23. The idea of experience and play sounds good enough .. because only when you play you will collect experience .. and the experience will give you more power to play ..

    If you add God to this .. the only wish of God or gods is that you play in a good manner a good game .. but games have rules .. so someone has a sort of control about .. if you were really free as LRH describes it in axiom 1 you would not need anything else then yourself .. and anything would like looking a movie which you have yourself created .. but this is not life ..

    There is random influence at every corner .. you are right or you make mistakes .. others do the same .. so it is complicated enough for learning through experience (learning with doing) .. there are several gods and minds around .. it is a system of what you can understand .. as more you understand, as better you are in a game ..

    Scientology is not a game where everybody wins .. as said from LRH .. it was once true .. but he lost his way about .. he gave rules and control over it .. maybe caused by others .. maybe ..

  24. All top notch posts, T.O.

    Well above 4.0.

    My experience has been similar.

    So is my VP.


  25. Marie guerin

    So true. My many years in scientology were a constant fight to preserve that simplicity. So tiring to have to go against the flow , all the while being unable to reconcile the contradictions and formulate what the fight was about.
    Until the push of the arrogant became too strong for their own good and I was out , free to serve my people the way I see fit . The road to get back to the simplicity was shown to me on this blog.

  26. “At the end of the day, everyone finds out who they really are.” ~ Oracle

    I do believe this statement to be correct Oracle. The correctness, though, is abstract and therefore beyond explanation or description but not beyond experience.

    I believe that each individualized singularity that we commonly refer to as being an entity with some degree of awareness and in possession of a body and mind separate from other forms, aka a person…will go through the same psychological process of coming to fully recognize and know who and what they really are. Although the process will be the same, how the process appears in form can and does vary both widely and wildly! Believing we are having a form experience, perhaps even believing we are the individual and separated person, we cannot recognize the self realization process is the same regardless of how it appears in form. Thus we debate, argue, judge, fight, imprison, torture and even kill to assert that one form is better or more right than another.

    In the parable of Monte, the “process” appeared, for awhile, in the form of Scientology. In the parable of my good friend, Larry, the same “process” appeared in the form of organized and specialized Christian doctrine. As the parables of the Monte and Larry identities continue the realization of Self becomes clearer and clearer although the form remains varied e.g. we don’t use the same terms or practices to describe, explain, or reach the same experience yet the experience is the same. And the experience, because it is abstract, can only be pointed to, it can’t be described, explained or illustrated.

  27. Oracle, I think people are having criticisms of Ron’s mind because of fraud and false advertising. The complaining as you say is the same as a buyer warning others of a deceptive product.
    The people judging the faulty product are not stuck. They are doing a civic duty to warn others so they won’t be deceived.

  28. I have tought about purpose, and purpose is indeed doing things for another person you believe is for the better.

    Wich can be understood as religion or believe

    Or this:

    I first wanted to post this, and I did fucker that I am;

    But this is more Purpose:

    I love Marty and Monique, they give guidance, but never forget they are normal people like you and me that gone through a lot of shit.

  29. Listen to this and dicide your faith or purpose

  30. GrailSeeker

    Wonderfully stated, Marie. Take a win, Marty. She isn’t alone.

  31. Walt Disney is the greatest offender. Do you have any idea how many children believe in Peter Pan?

  32. I get it. Well said. I happen to agree with you. I see almost every experience as a process. Every person as a potential source of valuable information.

    And, “Nothing ever goes away until it has taught us what we need to know. …. Rumi says

    Life is school. As long as I am learning something new it seems like it is going as it should. I am really nothing but a student.

    Which brings me around to another point. I have wondered since the beginning how people could read something in Scientology and really not be able to think with it. Even the most devoted loyalists. I mean, look at David Miscavige, if he could use the telephone the Church could save billions in legal fees and out P.R. costs. He just can’t pick up the phone and call someone, and this guy did a comm course. He knows about ser facs, he knows about treason, he knows about false reports and he just wallows in all of it with wild abandon.

    I think it comes down to student points. These targets and student points in learning. Learning is g=for the student’s benefit, not the Org’s. Adding points in no way proves the student learned one single thing they can think with. Zero value really. Symbols. The only real way to see if someone has been enlightened is in their behavior.

    Then you have “ethics” to enforce “enlightened behavior” on the other end.

    What Hubbard wanted and needed is what the culture evolved into. Now it is what David Miscavige wants and needs. It is an inverted non existence formula. “Find out what I want and need, and do produce or present it to me”. And there is a condition behind this, called self importance or narcissism.

    You can learn a lot about people and forces and conditions, many invisible. Isn’t that valuable? Because once you understand it, you understand yourself better. You own capabilities and your own reasons and how there are distances. Distance tolerating is not easy for everyone. “We must all be on the same page” , it seems to me, to be a basic urge right along with “survival”.

    This is valuable information because, really, you can sit down with anyone and calm them right down just by going on the same page with them. I think that is the magical healing of duplication and acknowledgement. I mean, this is something that is very useful. You can take pieces from any experiences and add them to others to make sense of things.

    I wouldn’t say, “Life is like a box of chocolates”. I would say it is like a tinker toy kit. But in the middle of that there are boxes of Cracker Jacks. And when you find one if you eat some popcorn, you will get a prize at the bottom of the box.

  33. But service and love for others takes a hit with quotes like this:

    Here is my L R H quote of the day:

    “The day when you are totally good, I will sneer because I’ll know that somebody overwhelmed you…You are entitled to a little wickedness. Of course, I think you went too far when you blew up that planet. … but one is not interested in goodness.”
    Lecture 31 Dec. 1961 “The E Meter and
    its Use.”

    Even being a good person is being a victim in Scientology, because being good is only the effect of being abused.

    This is one of the reasons that Ron helped nurture nasty people.

    If you are a good person, that is because someone abused you. Completely the opposite of what we know about nurturing.

    Ron’s arrogant hypnotic false assumption “but one is not interested in goodness” is a hypnotic command per Altitude Instruction.

    There are many quotes that support depravity penned by Ron. They are the ideological source of the Scientology anti social personality.

    So if you have a purpose to be a good person, it’s because you are abberated.
    Do the revelations never end?

  34. Yes they do. It’s called entertainment.

    Peter Pan is fun for kids. But I know of no adult that believed Peter Pan to be real.

    This is not the case in Scientology. Adults are caught in the hypnotic Prison of Belief.
    Serious Scientologists will harm real people to protect “Peter Pan.”
    One is seen only on TV and the silver screen, the other created a para military operation to destroy people.

    I sense a difference and it’s not a subtle difference.

  35. Brian,
    You are correct, in my opinion. I spent a lot of time and money in Scientology up to the OT VIII level. My motivation was in the beginning to warn people of a defective product. I have said it a thousand times. Hubbard charged high prices with a bold conceit. In that case, he should have had it right. Scientology is not priceless. I learned that.
    I cannot deny that I did benefit from parts of Scientology. I put Hubbard’s technology at less than ten cents on the dollar.


  36. If I can get at least a couple hundred first hand stories, with actual names and signed with some form of contact information, Including my own submission. And compose a cover letter to top it all off. I would gladly make copies and submit via e-mail and/or traditional mail, all the stories and cover letter to the list below. I would do all the leg work on this. All I would need from you is:

    *1 page summarizing why you feel Scientology’s tax exemption should be revoked
    *1 page summarizing how Scientology has personally affected you
    *Please have your full name at the top of each page and sign the second page (electronically or you can print it, sign it and scan it. You can even hand write your note if you wish and sign and scan it).
    *Second-hand submissions on behalf of those who cannot speak out about what happened to them, for whatever reason, are also welcome.
    *Submissions about events which you may have personally witnessed but did not affect you are welcome.
    *Anonymous submissions are welcome. But keep in mind that I wouldn’t send out a package like this if I receive less than a couple hundred personal stories with actual names attached to them

    Suggestion: It would be nice to have some notarized copies if you have the money to spend on that. It’s usually 10-30 bucks depending on where you live. I will likely get mine notarized.

    *Do not exceed the 2 page limit
    *Be professional
    *No curse words
    *State your feelings and your experiences, but do not make any demands or threats
    *Be factual
    *There is no need to name names of non-public figures, but if you are willing to provide them should any of these people choose to contact you, please state that in your note.
    *Don’t call anyone names, or express your feelings (positive or negative) towards the personnel below. Keep it focused on Scientology and your personal experience or things you have witnessed.
    *Don’t ramble, or profess conspiracy theories, or talk about angels and demons. Be as coherent and organized as you can.
    *Don’t send separate letters of your own to these people. I would rather make this a consolidated effort with a single package sent to each of these people. I will notify everyone of everyone else who is receiving a copy of this.

    Submit your two pages to dmanunderground@gmail.com

    This includes long-time or well-known critics. Everyone that has been personally affected by Scientology to any degree, please submit something. The more people we get, the better chance we have to grab someone’s attention on this list.

    Everyone is welcome to submit, whether you were a Scientologist or not and no matter how long ago your experience was.

    Tony, Marc, Claire, Tory, Gerry Armstrong, Marty Rathbun, Mike Rinder, John Brousseau, Nick Lister, Aaron Smith-Levin, Dee, the other Dee, Elizabethan, John P Capitalist, Jeffrey Augustine, Karen DeLaCarriere, Lori, Ginger, Susanna, Bob, and so many thousands of other people.

    Secretary of Health and Human Services
    US Attorney General
    Secretary of Labor
    Secretary of Homeland Security
    Speaker of the House
    Senate Majority Leader
    Senate Minority Leader
    House Ways and Means Committee
    Senate Committee on Finance
    My Senators
    My District’s Representative
    Commissioner of the IRS
    IRS – Communications and Liaison
    IRS – Deputy Commissioner for Services and Enforcement
    IRS – Tax Exempt and Government Entities Division
    IRS – Criminal Investigations Division
    IRS – Whistleblower Office
    Director & Deputy Director of the FBI
    FBI Public Affairs
    FBI Congressional Affairs
    FBI Criminal Investigations Division
    Dept of Labor – Occupational Safety and Health Administration
    Dept of Labor – Office of Congressional and Intergovernmental Affairs
    Dept of Labor – Office of the Inspector Genera
    Dept of Labor – Office of Labor-Management Standards
    Dept of Labor – Office of the Worker’s Compensation Program
    Dept of Labor – Office of Public Engagement
    Governor of California
    CA – State Senate Majority Leader
    CA – State Senate Minority Leader
    CA – My state Senator
    CA – Speaker of the Assembly
    CA – Assembly Minority Leader
    CA – My Assemblyman
    Attorney General of California
    California State Board of Equalization
    CA Secretary of Labor and Workforce Development
    CA Secretary of Health and Human Services
    Riverside County Board of Supervisors
    Riverside County CEO
    Riverside County Treasurer
    Riverside County Sheriff
    Mayor of Los Angeles, CA
    My Representative in the City Council of Los Angeles
    Chief of LAPD
    Governor of Florida
    Attorney General of Florida
    FL – Speaker of the House
    FL – Senate Majority Leader
    FL – Senate Minority Leader
    Mayor of Clearwater, FL
    Clearwater, FL City Council – General Address
    Tony Ortega
    Los Angeles Times
    New York Times
    Tampa Bay Times
    Sacramento Bee
    Clearwater Gazette
    Press Enterprise
    [HQ as well as local affiliates in Riverside, Los Angeles, and Clearwater]

  37. You are frightened by it. I understand. It has become the monster under your bed. These things are relative. There are entire cultures down south that are afraid of people from new York. There are people afraid of the dark, just look at the lights everywhere, everywhere. People that are afraid of cigarette smoke. Afraid of Democrats. Afraid of liquor, loose women, tattoos. People afraid of ghosts. Ideas. Power and illusion.A lot of people out here running around afraid of money. Afraid of work. Afraid of men. Police. Soldiers.Strangers and strange people. Some of our fears are so unreal it escapes our attention completely. For instance, nobody ever thinks about the fact that a white person could have a fear of white people. But they do. Just look at how “socially obedient” some cultures are, especially fundamentalists. Now, that’s sad how deep this thing fear thing can go.

    The way to get around this, I have found, is to run a can have on yourself, with everything you are afraid of. I know that sounds downright unholy and inhuman. But it has always worked for me.

  38. Because the second fear comes between you, and someone or something else, you are going to run a can’t have on yourself.

  39. Mark C. Rathbun

    A colossall waste of time and effort.

  40. I would like to add, I personally think the loyalists, fundamentalists, and fanatics involved in Scientology are the ones most frightened by it. And I think the people that worshiped Hubbard were afraid of him. Afraid to disobey him, afraid to question him, afraid to correct him, afraid to smack him in the head when he did something stupid.

  41. The mere fact that grown adults stood around while he locked a child in a chain locker and nobody said or did anything to correct that, tells me he was surrounded by people in terror.

    To unload “heavy ethics” and punishment on top of people that are already scared to death of you, is sadistic. Punishment is sadistic. It is obvious Hubbard was a dominating bully. That doesn’t mean he didn’t notice some interesting things. Big men can have big flaws. Like the rest of us, they pay and pay in invisible ways for not self correcting.

    To be quite honest, I feel I got more out of Scientology than Hubbard did.

  42. If you look at the ethics book, there is a section called punishment and rewards. There are NO REWARDS listed in that chapter! It doesn’t take a mathematician to see that there is ZERO rewards listed! The chapter should have just been called “Punishment”. That right there shows you how imbalanced the “ethics and justice” system is!

  43. That is a good way to put it, T.O..

    I got way more out of scn than hubbard did.

    I got way more out of scn than most people did.


  44. I met a guy at the Toronto scn conference that said DM was giving him a hard time. He confronted DM with a small machine gun, and DM gave in.

    I forget the details, but I think he said that it was Hubbard that gave him the machine gun.

    That was some time ago.

    He said he never feared DM.

    DM is just a bag of hot air.

    DM is a blow hard.

    There may be people on this forum that know about that story and can tell the whole story.


  45. Good Day George:-) nice to connect again.

    Yes, I got many things from Ron as well. I’ve listed them before, but I’ll share my grateful positives lessons again.

    I became proficient at converting mental mass back to its source. It’s not always easy but I do it. I’ve leaned to just go to the essential thought that creates the mental mass instead of having a story to run. At some point it’s all conceptual. Everything is thought first and foremost.

    I realized the divine power of listening. Listening to heal and just have fun allowing someone else the spotlight. But always to heal no doubt.

    It’s ok to believe in a fourth dynamic and consider my actions can make a difference. He made us feel like we could save the world. I’d consider that a beautiful purpose. We all surrendered ourselves to it. It felt good. It felt very good.

    By far, my most favorite positive influence Ron has had on me is my total devotion and love of word definition and etymology (Proto Indo European reconstructions). I worship my old American Heritage Dictionary.

    He gathered together a generation of truth seekers and we became family. But as Ron said,”thetan’s don’t do well in families.

    Scientology parties were pretty wild and pretty drunk:-)). They were fun.

    The standing ovations from performing blew my ego out of proportion. They were so much fun. Scientology audiences are great to perform to. The ‘being there’ habit, that Scientologists have, really creates a high performance energy. You could say that Scientology sees something special in the arts. The Sufis do as well.

    I really believed in Ron. The betrayal was not fun. But the learning was divine and human.

    I am grateful for what I learned from Ron:

    The trust and the betrayal.

  46. Hi Miss Oracle.
    Can’t have, must have, across many subjects is a wonderful set of processes that can produce amazing results. None the least of which is a peace of mind and at ease of life in general.

    The greatest benefit I have received from these and several processes is a deep understanding of the flow of life, along with the exact details of how these things affect and guide the actions of myself and others. A working understanding which goes beyond the written words of Hubbard and others.

    Beyond that is the ability to reach a real understanding of what and why things happened when going down whole track chains. An understanding deep and clear enough to be able to fully evaluate what you have learned and especially recognize what is not accurate or complete in that which you are learning.

    At this point the whole track begins to open up and the patterns one is looking for become clear.

  47. That doesn’t mean the conditions do not have value. Not in an introvert way. But, have you ever bothered to look at what condition people are in towards you? If a truck is headed right for you and it means a head on collision, can’t you sense some danger and bypass normal habits and routines, switch lanes? It is important to know when you are not a liability, otherwise people can give you wrong indications. As if there could ever really be a “freeloader” in Scientology. How people can cause you to go down in condition? If someone smacks you, how far can you drop how fast? How suppression causes lower conditions. How someone with a long history of propensity in treason is probably going to continue to manifest it. Hidden conditions become obvious. Look at Tom Cruise. That is one treasonous MFer. He ONLY goes for Catholic chicks. Women that are already in a religion, that have their own codes, morals, ethics. He then lures them into Scientology and expects them to conform although the ethics codes in Scientology do not align in any way with the ten commandments. He sets them up for losses. It is a form of spiritual rape. It is treason. He has a long treason condition on his second dynamic.

  48. Tom Cruise is also in treason to the Catholic Church (from whence he came I think), he bears false witness constantly. And that is another way in which you forced into lower conditions by the C of S. You are expected to go into treason against your family and former church, to be in “normal” with them.

    Well, if you are condoning treason left right and center and even forcing people into those conditions, how are you going to preach against lower conditions? You treason is only considered bad if it is against THEIR codes, They don’t care about your treason to others.

  49. It is also my view .. basically a wrong target for me .. too much effort for an uncertain product .. the product will be a lot of paper which nobody will ever read .. finally a confusion .. Mark C. Rathbun may give the other day a questionary about claims against the church from publics .. it may only be like “Do you have a claim” .. Is your claim: “Not delivering what was promised” .. “mishandled and not corrected” .. “degraded from the church for something never done” .. “declared SP for nothing” .. “No repayment given” .. “did not agree with LRH teachings” .. “No religion at all” ..

    What I mean is, if you ask for random, you get to much meanings .. if you ask for break of LRH policy .. you will get your word ..

  50. Tom Cruise threw his 14 year old niece out of the family home because she got busted kissing some guy. (Treason indication) Like, he doesn’t know it’s NORMAL for a teen ager to kiss. David Wilson, OT8, had his 15 year old daughter up at Delphi doing liability conditions for kissing a guy, Like, he should know it is NORMAL for a 15 year old girl to kiss someone. For the love of God this civilization was built on the backs of teen age women! They can’t SEE conditions. Although they are both clear and according to the human chart of evaluation they are supposed to be aware of conditions. So what is right and wrong in this picture?

    Obviously the human awareness characteristics do NOT align with case status.

    I bring this up, because you mention false advertising.

    Either do the promises in Dianetics or S.O.S.. Either these guys are not clear, or there is false information.

    There is false information. I think that is obvious to everyone by now.

    Marty wrote an incredible post at one time about how Hubbard always looked for the faults in others to explain his own math not adding up.

    Well, that sorts out a lot for people and was a very helpful point.

    But, don’t you find it interesting to figure it out? Isn’t that fun? Doesn’t it help you in your own self correction? At least, not to be so gullible? If you were.

    I think his ideas are true for some of the people some of the time, not some of the people all of the time, and certainly not all of the people all of the time. And, he just didn’t want to see it.

    The problem is the Scientologists who think it is for all of the people all of the time, even when it is blatantly obvious it is not.

    You really do have to develop a capability within yourself to evaluate what part of it all works for you some of the time. And go on and hold onto that. And move what does not on out of your tool box.

    To say none of it is beneficial and all of it is is beneficial is a pendulum swing on both sides. To say all of it is dangerous and all of it is healing power is the same.

    I found a lot of beneficial knowledge there. Even the fact of pulling the strings, mingling, seeing how others live act and respond. That was a process. A highly beneficial education.

    I think, it is all a process.

    I think, you can move on when you can manage your own case and you do not have any confusions left. I felt I could manage my own case after I did L12.

    My lingering curiosity is about the culture. And I admit I lean on Marty’s posts to jiggle me into a better understanding, because I don’t know of many people who have the panoramic view of it all that he has. Without any other purpose except to put the obvious out there for people to look at. It’s just easier to work through with that help.

    There is so much beauty and meaning and value in your life and how you have spent it. If you would, you know, just look in that direction.

    While Hubbard was reading compliance reports, stat reports, legal debriefs and living surrounded by graphs and yes men, watching his son kill himself and his wife do time in prison,we were living loving laughing and seeing the results right in front of us. We had time and space to ponder. To love. To care about the people in front of us. To have great conversations. To think. To care. To win when we wanted to. To explore our own universe and find out who we were.

    I mean, we have conversations and company because of the lives we have lived. That is treasure isn’t it?

    Aren’t you at least grateful for the company?

  51. I think, because he made such a fuss about it, that Hubbard himself was a squirrel on some level.

    I think in the beginning, when he really unraveled some relevant truths, he was channeling from a higher power. Or powers. And he had some misownership going on about being total source. Because as soon as he started on that path, things went south very fast.

    I’m aware when I am channeling. I feel the higher powers. I know “the invisable” isn’t all that it seems.

    I think, if he could have that in it’s proper place, and bought that dynamic into the picture, you know, that HE was a messenger, he would have fared much better.

  52. And I guess because that’s the way I see it, I don’t have any urge to kill the messenger.

  53. Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree.

    Martin Luther

  54. You are even more ramblimg than me

  55. Hi Brian,
    Thanks for sharing.
    Great to re-connect.

    I met my wife on the Freewinds in 1989. We often look back after more than twenty five years and wonder about the placement of our gratitude. Here we are now both declared. But the issue of Scientology and its legacy seems to be larger.
    The book Self Analysis probably helped me more than any other book of its kind. I remember reading Karen Horney and getting very little out of her in comparison. Early Grade Chart auditing was also especially helpful. In addition, as an auditor, I felt great helping other people.
    The old clearing course was also of benefit.
    I moved along on the OT levels with great energy and enthusiasm. I put my faith and trust into Hubbard. He convinced me that he had all of the answers. The major issue seemed to be that his lectures were very, very long and he always only made minor advances. He changed basic ideas often claiming that he had found something new and more advanced. This seemed odd to me but not enough to even put up any kind of criticism. When I reached OT VIII, I performed a few auditing actions on the Freewinds which I enjoyed. The anti-Christ role he intended to play did not bother me at all. Having been firmly grounded in the faith basis of the Bible by Jesuits, I just passed over it without upset. Oddly enough, I had completed a major research paper in college on the Biblical anti-Christ. Fancy having Hubbard try to tell me something about it from his limited point of view. What Hubbard did not seem to grasp was that scholars had moved way past literal interpretations of the anti-Christ. In the 1930’s, theologians had alternative viewpoints. This placed Hubbard in my mind as a fundamentalist even though he offered the Marcab space alien explanation. I could see Hubbard’s inability to think in abstract symbols. From this lack of ability, he could not grasp the substance of being. Hubbard was not trained in ontology. He was clueless.
    I did not think much about this Hubbard flaw for over twenty five years.
    Recently I have discovered that there is an area of the mind which reflects the idea of higher powers but on a lower level. It is like comparing a lightning bolt to a firecracker or a Howitzer to a pea shooter. Hubbard was not hitting real OT power. He was the firecracker or the pea shooter. This is where he stopped with exteriorization. Once he wrapped his conceit around his pea shooter, he could be the pickled rapper or the hypnotic operator.

  56. But with lesser words ..

  57. Cat,

    When I saw the youtube video postings, (I did not read the headings), but I said WTF? …….that looks like DC.

    I clicked them open and watched about half way through, and said to myself, that is a video of the anon event that I was at in 08.

    It was then that I read the heading title on the top of the video.
    I was blown away.

    I am somewhere in that crowd.

    That brought back some crazy memories.

    All I can say is holy f**k.

    Were you there?


  58. For many years I was wondering about the purpose of life.

    Whatever I do, everything is turning into dust: family, friends, my creations in the field of engineering, etc. So, knowing that I have to die in a few years, I thought what is the purpose of life, if everything has to be destroyed?

    Eventually I found an answer in this quote from the Indian master Shantideva:
    “The physical body is our boat for crossing the ocean of human suffering”.

    According to Buddhist teachings, that is a very rare opportunity to be reborn as a human being, with a body and a mind in good working order, in a country with enough freedom and without famine. Moreover there are more chances to be reborn as an animal or worse.

    But with a human body in good working order and with enough freedom, we have a chance to work on the spiritual level and to improve, so that our next lives allow us to continue to improve, until in the end we reach the Buddhist enlightenment that can be compared, to some degree, with the state of OT.

    Our body is our boat that should allow us to reach spiritual freedom, provided we do not waste our time in futility.

    Ethics, Love and Compassion are very important to succeed, so that the purpose stated by Mark Rathbun is well aligned with the Buddhist teachings.

  59. If you have not seen it, watch the Going Clear movie here:


  60. Hey deep thinking lady. I appreciate your thoughts.

    We respond to each other as we experience the reality of the perception of each other.

    Sometimes we get each other and sometimes we don’t. See below my entry of what I got from Ron. Things that are precious to me.

    More than anything Oracle. This is fun. I am actually having fun. But I acknowledge that you see my motive in a different light. As interpreted by your perception. 🙂

  61. And Oracle, I can say quite happily that I owe this one personal trait that I have to Ron:

    I am willing to look at anything. I am willing to put myself face to face with incredible suffering within and without and derive spiritual realization.

    This habit is represented in this singular Ronism:

    “All I am trying to do is to get you to LOOK” L Ron Hubbard

    I feel Oracle that you take my views of Ron personally. It’s not necessary.

  62. George, I got into Scientology through the Incredible Stringband. They were quite famous back in the day.

    One day I was looking through album covers in a record store and came across an album called “Changing Horses”. I never heard of this band but I fell in love with the face of one of the members on the cover and purchased the album.

    I really liked them and saw them at Lincoln Center and The Fillmore East in New York. I would take girlfriends to these concerts.

    I was studying Yoga in a building at 500 West End Ave in Manhattan and a friend of mine also went to this yoga class and found a ticket in the street for a free personality test. It was in the same building as the yoga studio. It was the Geltman Mission.

    Well, my friend took some courses and then told me that the Stringband were Scientologists. I was about 17 or 18 at the time. Because of my love for the band I checked Scientology out.

    The strange part about this story is that I ended up marrying that women on the album cover. Her name was Likki.

    That was some strange karma. Almost other worldly in it’s synchronicity.

    I saw a face on an album cover, I bought the album, I became a Scientologist, I married Likki.

    That is what I call a Wink From The Universe. Something had to be worked out in Scientology. I am grateful for all my experiences.

  63. I’m the worst offender.

  64. Yep. This describes every gov that squashes the human right of Freedom of Association. The current US Gov is on a big kick to squash this Right.

  65. “For many years I was wondering about the purpose of life.”

    Me too, since I was about 4. I was raised a Country Baptist with it’s literal interpretation of the King James ‘version’ of the Holy Bible. That our purpose, environment, abilities, in fact our entire framework of life was given to us by God, and of course affected along the way by Satan.

    That we were given free will, but all the parameters that we live by were set up by this outside force and all our choices are limited by these choices which were made beyond our control. That we choose from these choices which are laid before us.

    I accepted this, but was never really comfortable with it.

    I recently wrote this:
    “All the happiness, sadness, love , anger, joy, remorse is completely within yourself. Others can help trigger these things, for good or bad, but they belong to you. Take ownership and be the source of your own happiness.”
    ” How you feel is ultimately a choice. Choose wisely my friend.” MNR

    Purposes are similar in that they are ultimately a choice. Oh, they are affected by persons and conditions about you, but their actual source is within. Purposes have been suggested and forced upon you by others, but they are dependent on your acceptance, your adoption of them, knowingly or unknowingly.

    Try looking at your life and actions over the last few years and see if you can determine what purpose or purposes you have been ‘following’. See if any patterns emerge. See if you can find any goals that you have been working toward that you are unaware of. Find any pattern in the choices you have made at particular turning points in your life.

    Were these purposes that you chose? Are these purposes that you actually want? Are they actually yours?

    Your intentions and actions are ultimately a choice. Choose wisely my friend.

  66. John,

    What is wrong with government?

    The government is made up of human beings.

    There is no fault in any government official or bureaucrat that you cannot find in yourself.

    To find the cause of what is wrong with the government, you have to look in the mirror.

    When you and the rest of the populace become honest and competent the government will become honest and competent.

    Why government is getting worse?

    The bible says that all authority is appointed by God.

    There is no authority that is not from God.

    The definition of God in this instance is not exactly what people think.

    The idea or flavor of the definition or at least part of it, lies in the words:

    Ye are gods. That means that the people are gods . Albeit gods in training, learning to understand cause and effect of their thinking and words.

    And this is not just a bible law or a rule that applies to Christians only ,
    it is universal law.

    It is meta physical, psychological law.

    It is a law like the law of gravity. It applies to everyone whether you believe it or not.

    Believing in something does not make it true.

    Definition: Believe: 1. to accept something as true without proof.

    2.To raise an assumption to the level of a fact without proof.
    3. blind faith.

    When you say you believe in something, it means you do not know.
    Believing in something is a confession of ignorance.
    To believe something is intellectual dishonesty.


    1. to perceive or understand as fact or truth; to apprehend clearly and with certainty: I know the situation fully.

    2. to have established or fixed in the mind or memory: to know a poem by heart; Do you know the way to the park from here?

    3. to be cognizant or aware of: I know it.

    4. be acquainted with (a thing, place, person, etc.), as by sight, experience, or report: to know the mayor.

    5. to understand from experience or attainment (usually followed by how before an infinitive): to know how to make gingerbread.

    verb (used without object), knew, known, know·ing.

    6. to have knowledge or clear and certain perception, as of fact or truth.

    7. to be cognizant or aware, as of some fact, circumstance, or occurrence; have information, as about something.


    8. the fact or state of knowing; knowledge.


    9. in the know, possessing inside, secret, or special information.

    10. know the ropes, Informal. to understand or be familiar with the particulars of a subject or business: He knew the ropes better than anyone else in politics.

    A belief is in fact, is nothing more than a confession of ignorance, or an assumption.

    Everyone is telepathic.

    It is a sin to criticize politicians and the government. It makes government more dysfunctional.

    Criticizing politicians causes them to make poor decisions because they pick up or receive all the thoughts of all the people at the same time.

    A politician once said: being a politician is like putting a metal bucket over your head and having everyone bang on it with sticks.

    The more you bitch and complain at the government the worse the government gets.

    We must pray for our government leaders and all authority. Pray non ceasingly.

    It must be done now.

    There is no fault in the government that you cannot find in yourself.

    The government will only become good when everybody stops criticizing and prays for them and blesses them and not until then.

    Until that time happens there will only be chaos and mayhem.

    The people always get the kind of government they deserve. No exception.

    People collectively get the kind of government they create.

    People collectively create the kind of government they have.

    The people cause the type of government they get.

    A perfect man can be come president and if people bitch and complain and find fault or fabricate lies and then accuse him of them, that will contribute towards causing him to make bad decisions.

    If Jesus came to be president, or even save the world, the people would destroy him very quickly.

    When the people bitch and complain they get a bad government and government gets worse.

    If you have a problem with government, you have to look in the mirror for the cause.

    The government is a manifestation or reflection of the collective consciousness of the population.

    A mirror image, if you will.

    When all people will pray for their government, leaders and authorities they will get good government.

    Consider this:

    Have you ever been in a critical environment, or the subject of constant or prolonged criticism?

    This could be in a man- woman/ husband-wife relationship, it could be in a work environment, or church group, or any group environment.

    How did you feel when everything you said and did was dissected and parsed like corrupt lawyers solving a case in a court room? Like swine they trample truth into their manure.

    (Or better still, watch how certain subversive journalists parse and dissect politicians on TV talk shows.)

    How did you feel?

    How do you feel when you got criticized, especially prolonged criticism?

    How efficiently and effectively did you think and make good decisions during that time?

    Likely very poorly. Take an honest look.

    You always wanted to get away into peace and quiet, right?

    Many people get sick with cancers and other diseases and disorders.

    Many people get nervous, mental and spiritual breakdowns and have to take leave of absences to cleanse and recover.

    Now compare that to a time when you were the subject of love, praise, prayer, and blessings?

    How did you feel? How well did your mind work? Most likely very well.

    I can’t imagine how it could be anything else.

    Did you like to stay in that environment? Were you looking forward to come back to it? You likely did.

    The bible says to pray for your adversaries and no one will ever hurt you.

    Everyone is telepathic. So are politicians. They receive the thoughts of the people. Everyone is connected. That is why prayer works.

    The public is like a monster with as many heads as there are population, each screaming a different voice, wanting something different. And all those voices and thoughts are going into the politicians minds, which scrambles their minds.

    Have you ever spoke to a group where everyone was talking at the same time? Were you able to understand anything, or get anything done?

    Not likely.

    What happens between political leaders and the population is the same.

    Political leaders become the target, the focus of the minds of the people. Focus and intent causes energy and thoughts to flow to the intended target. Distance is not a factor in this realm. It works on the same mechanics or physics as prayer.

    It is not a religious concept. It is just a metaphysical law, like the law of gravity, is a law of nature.

    The New Testament gives clear instructions for people on how to behave and what kind of attitude to have towards government leaders and authority.

    1 Peter 2:13:14:15:16 “For the Lord’s sake accept the authority of every human institution, whether of the emperor as supreme, or of governors, as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right.” For this is the will of God, That by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men.

    Do not use your liberty (your freedom of speech or freedom of press, freedom of religion, freedom of speech and assembly, etc ) as a cloak (a vehicle) for spreading vice, criticism, slander, libel, defamation of character, vile or malice or accomplishing subversion or sedition or committing crimes and terrorism.

    But as servants of God, honor all people. Honor and pray for the king and all authority.

    If you don’t, it will only be a matter of time, before you will not have a king and no authority and total anarchy.

    Paul wrote in Romans 13:1: “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.”

    Ecclesiastes Ch 9:

    Vs 20:

    Do not curse the king even in your thought.

    Book of Jude :

    Vs: 8

    Likewise the anarchists, the perverted, and the insane, defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of authority. This will result in anarchy, which will cause armegaddon.

    In this instance, I think Apostle Paul means that we “collectively speaking” is/ are God.

    (John 10: 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?)

    And the head of state is elected as a common denominator (determined by majority vote) of the electorate.

    Collectively the electorate is “God” the “cause” (creator) of getting the head of state elected and put in place.

    As it has been said, that the people get the type of government they deserve.

    Or the government is manifested by the people.

    The people create the kind of government they have.

    The government is collectively a mirror image of society.

    The electorate creates the government.

    And if we criticize and condemn and resist authority we will be judged.

    We will become effect of our criticism, condemnation and resistance.

    People always get the kind of government they deserve. The type of government the people get is a product of the people’s thoughts.

    The more we criticize our politicians the more it scrambles the politician’s minds, the harder it is for them to make good decisions and the worse our government becomes.

    Criticizing is negative prayer or cursing, or the Devil’s prayer.

    The more people complain and criticize the governments the crazier you will make the politicians and the worse conditions will get. It is happening all around us now.

    That same principle applies to anyone in any situation, from husbands, wives and families, to business environments, to church management groups, to the political scene.

    Criticizing and complaining about government leaders and authority is a sin. Criticism erodes and degrades everything like acid rain.

    Everyone is telepathic. That is why prayer works when you pray for someone. That is why we are thought to pray, even for our enemies.

    The more we pray for our leaders, the more we ask God to bless them with the right knowledge and wisdom for good governance, the better they will lead.

    The more we pray for our politicians the better quality people will be appointed by “God”.

    The more you understand “God” and metaphysical law the more you will realize that it cannot be any other way.

    I say what is meant by “God” in this instance is that, we the people, collectively are “God”. We are gods in training. If we are His children, and created in His image, how can it be otherwise?

    The other problem that is caused when people and media criticize and tear apart everything politicians and bureaucrats do, is the most competent people in the country will not run for office.

    Because no one in their right mind wants to take such abuse.

    So what happens is that the less competent and often crazies and crooks run for office.

    Then we go down the downward spiral.

    And civilization is now working hard at self destructing.

    There is no problem or fault in any politician or authority that a critic cannot find in themselves.

    Government and authority are a manifestation or reflection of the people’s collective consciousness.

    If you have a problem with government or authority you have to look in the mirror for the cause of problem.

    When the people become honest, intelligent and competent, and operate on God’s principles, the government and all authority will become likewise.

    We will get good government when everyone begins to pray for all politicians and authority, that God will bless them with the knowledge and wisdom of and for good governance.

    1 Timothy 2:1-2

    King James Version

    I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

  67. I thought as you addressed a communication to me, out of respect I should take it personally. I don’t care to discount other people in general. I didn’t think the exchange was about Hubbard, but about you and I. I erred in thinking that because you spoke to me, it signaled some curiosity. About my thoughts and views.

    Nevertheless, this subject of PURPOSE, combined with our exchange, has been highly beneficial to me. I have realized that “Kill the messenger” is a purpose. It is even why Marty has been attacked by messengers. Messengers with the purpose to “Kill the messenger”. This has only served to amp up my curiosity to even greater heights. I see this as a purpose ignited in many.


  68. I mean, it really explains a lot about the culture. You have these “messengers” running the show. Yet they are programmed to “kill the messenger” (with “ethics”) if one of their own steps out of line. Their purpose now now to “Kill the messengers” if they carry any message related to psychiatry. Obviously Miscavige is possessed with the purpose to “kill the messenger” as he even beats them upon them delivering a message. And, you have this group of messengers totally programmed to “Kill the messenger”.

    I mean, that explains a lot to me about the insanity within that culture.

  69. Messengers sent to “Kill the messenger”.

  70. Also explains why Miscavige discounts Hubbard as an overt product maker. And has his personal belongings stuffed in a museum and his writings buried in a vault.

  71. In fact, above “Booby trapping systems”, which Miscavige announced as one of his his main purposes at one event, “Kill the messenger” would qualify as one of his more senior and potent evil purposes.

  72. And I do not mean to suggest Hubbard was free of this purpose himself. But it just goes to show how twisted things can get. And what I am finding curious about the purpose to “Kill the messenger”, is that if you have studied history, this is not fresh. This is biblical. And it was so rampant laws had to be passed about Freedom of speech.

  73. It even bleeds into corporate America. I know someone who was recently offered a lot of money to halt research for four years, until the company he worked for could move their existing stock~! Well in that case, it would be “suppress the messenger”. But since he refused, they killed him off (their employment roster).

  74. Not sure why Hubbard thought evil was hard to confront. David Miscavige is nothing but a menacing particle. And there are others of his offspring / identity who are just the same. RMPs. “Religious” Menacing Particles. Menacing particles under the banner of “religion”. Whilst “spreading the gospel” with the left hand, they “kill the messengers” with the right. “The Crucifixion” is the tale of “kill the messenger”, and it is thousands of years old. Yet, you see people running around today, fundamentalists, dramatizing the same script who consider themselves “spiritually supreme” , “advanced beings”. Whilst in fact they have not evolved in thousands of years, being spoon fed with the hind sight of history to learn from. With points of view that could free them from it. Inching forward one lifetime after another, manifesting as some black magic spell. These are only menacing particles. Thought police.

  75. “We want everyone on the same page. And if you bring in a different message, BOOM! “

  76. Governments have been on a kick to squash this and all other rights for at least 10k years. My first thought was that Govt.s restrain and suppress the rights of it’s subjects to the degree that it feels threatened. That is too simplistic and actually an error.

    Individuals in Govt. seek to seek to increase their authority and reduce the rights of individuals at all times. When they feel threatened it becomes an opportunity to impose the controls that they already desired.

    Heads of families, the smallest and most intimate form of Govt. have been controlling the right of association much longer. I’m not knocking families. You will find the finest and occasionally the worst of leadership within them. But there is usually some genuine affinity within them, which most often limits the suppressive tendencies of their leaders.

    But the effort to control goes way, way back.

  77. Dio wrote: “There is no fault in any government official or bureaucrat that you cannot find in yourself.”

    Um, no. Many of them murder people or order such actions. I don’t. You wrote an awful lot of words but it is just meandering babble that you obviously didn’t even read yourself. If you DID read it and still posted, you are not intelligent enough to bother conversing with.

  78. Yes Mark. Any person who finished 5th grade knows that gov’s have been doing this forever. My point was the PRESENT ramp up of such activities…

  79. Marilyn morrison

    Continued good work by Marty. I remain grateful. I particularly enjoyed post by Marildi of John Cleese utube. Thx. Expressed anger and pain are important. However, humor (John Cleese) provides me a break from both. Thx again

  80. Yes, John,

    It is poorly written.

    I was very tired and did not have the time or energy to edit.

    But the point is made.


  81. Good day sister O,

    Loved your ideas.

    “Kill the messenger”…………………….. Sounds like:

    “Ruin Utterly”……………………

    This is the ideological source of all this “killing messengers” violence. If a person can agree to two words:

    Ruin Utterly

    Then he can “kill messengers” with religious fervor and group bonding for the righteousness cause of clearing this sector.

    Paulette Cooper was a messenger. Werner Erhart was a messenger. John McMasters was a messenger. David Mayo was. Mary Sue as well.

    If Scientology really practiced and reinforced “What is Greatness”, non of us would be here on this blog.

  82. I agree the above mentioned were messengers. “Kill the messengers” does not = “Ruin Utterly” to me. They are different words, different definitions, and different purposes.

    But “ruin utterly” is a purpose and Hubbard imposed this as a purpose on others, all the while complaining about other people’s evil purposes.

    “Ruin utterly” is also an evil purpose and, an unattainable goal. “Kill the messenger” can be an unattainable goal.

    I have a different opinion of, “What is greatness” than Hubbard’s. But you are right about the results of observing that.

    At least we have a puzzle to work through.

    I think the blog would have come into being anyway. I don’t think it was formed of discontent. But of a need for better, and other truths.

  83. Yes, John, you are quite right. Those who want to hold their thumb over others are making quite a push lately, and many are quite willing to submit, for the greater good, of course. “Never let a crisis go to waste.”

    There have always been those who will pander to mis-emotion and guide the masses to their own prison. But not every 5th grade graduate can see it. The price of freedom is constant vigilance, and it is those such you and I and a few others who must remind the many of what has happened in the past, what is going on now, and what can and will happen in the future without that vigilance.

    There are people down the street, in the next apartment, working alongside us, who would happily become a storm trooper or part of the neighborhood Gestapo should the opportunity arise. The Nazis of yesteryear were just folks until they got the chance to be the boss of their street, their neighborhood or their country. Exposing the beginnings of evil and an ethics presence are a necessity. Lets hope it’s enough this time.

    I don’t ask people to agree with me, just to pay attention.

  84. Post script.


    The way I wrote what I did, is not due to a lack of intelligence.

    What you wrote insulted my intelligence.

    It was due to a physical condition of complete exhaustion. I had run out of steam. I am pretty sure every hard working person experiences that sooner or later. I simply did not have the physical and mental where-with-all to reread and edit it. My objective at the time was to get my message out and nip such nonsense (as what you said) in the bud.

    My write up was intelligent and true in it’s content. It just needed editing and rewriting. I only wish I had a personal good content writer.

    But anyways it is now morning and I am functioning better.

    To determine the value (intelligence level) of what I said, you have to ask yourself, is what I said true or not?

    Or is there anything that I said that was not true?

    One good point Hubbard said, was the value of a datum is determined by the number of problems it solves and how well it solves them.

    And what I said, will solve a lot of problems, if it was applied. It would pretty much solve all of the most unsolvable problems in the USA.

    But you evidently are not capable of making such judgement.

    Such matters of judgement and truth are determined by honest men, probituous men, righteous men (right thinking men), properly qualified men, men of substantial higher learning, men who have a sound reputation for good judgement, and good common sense.

    Men who have the ability to see what is actually there. Men who have the ability to take things said in the proper context.

    To take things out of context is to see something that is not there.

    That is basically the definition of insanity.

    Much of dianetics and scn is about that matter.

    It is now obvious that you flunked scn.

    When you said:

    Um, no. Many of them murder people or order such actions. I don’t.

    You took what I said out of context.

    If you were intelligent, sane and had common sense, you would of realized that I meant people as a collective.

    The state of government is not solely dependent on you.

    The USA has the highest murder rate of all advanced countries.

    So when you say that the government kills people, especially after what I said, …………..that is really a twisted, perverted and insane (aberrated) statement.

    At the same time, a very high percentage of the US population are insane and enemies of not only the state, but of the world.

    Those enemies also endanger my safety. Anyone who endangers my safety can be charged and sued.

    So in summary you took two issues out of context:

    1. you saw my poor writing as a lack of intelligence, when it was due to a lack of editing and writing ability.

    2. you took the issue of my statement:

    “There is no fault in any government official or bureaucrat that you cannot find in yourself.” to mean “you personally”

    in entirety, ……when that was not the context it was meant to be. That was obvious too.


  85. Marilyn, glad you appreciated that youtube video too. Here’s another great one on the subject of play and its unrecognized value. It’s a TED talk by Dr. Stuart Brown, who has done a lot of research on the subject. If you only have a few minutes, at least watch the first part, which shows some photos of a polar bear and a husky dog that are amazing.

  86. Or, the blog would have been here because I don’t think in this universe, on this planet, Hubbard will have the final word. It’s just not that kind of place. He went on and on about how exclusion can ruin an organization and then established all kinds of rules to exclude people.

    Paulette Cooper was able to take him for a ride.

  87. He said, “What you validate grows” and then obsessed on one woman that threw him a fast ball. He obviously needed bull baiting himself.

    But what you validate does grow. I was bull baited myself today and remembered these things.and Just decided to let it go. A few hours later the person that bull baited me was in a domestic dispute with someone else. I just didn’t get sucked into the motivator flow. Someone else did.

    I think some people are dismayed that Hubbard was not holy and could not follow his own advice. I just don’t expect others to do thing that I myself am not capable of. I’m not holy, I don’t always practice what I preach. Perhaps our disagreements evolve because you have higher standards than me.

  88. Hello Dio.
    Haven’t spoken in a day or two. I get what you said about being worn out and needing a little recoup time. It seems that one minute sweat is dripping off my nose from ripping out wire, and the next moment I’m trying to program a paper folder, trying to convince it not to miss the corners.

    “There is no fault in any government official or bureaucrat that you cannot find in yourself.”

    Yes, we all have all the purposes and intentions that you can think of imbedded in the back of our minds, waiting to come out under the right conditions. Some are noble and heroic, some are very unseemly. Politics and leadership is a condition which often brings out intentions which are not considered the best in us. Occasionally it brings out the very best in individuals.

    But it is all there in each and every one of us. On that you can rest assured. We have all committed unspeakable crimes, coerced and corrupted, meddled and damaged the lives of many. We have all had moments of heroism, saved the hearts and minds of those in need, and risen to brilliance.

    For EVERY harmful and selfish intention there is a time when it seemed the right and correct thing to do. A time when a little bit of death brought forth life, a time when when one or a few had to be suppressed for the good of many. These times of when it was right are the most dangerous of all. They become the most deeply imbedded intentions of all.

    The primary difference in people is WHAT PURPOSES AND INTENTIONS ARE THEY FOLLOWING NOW. Which rightness’s of the past are individuals using to operate in the present.

    LRH mentioned suppressive persons in some of his writings and advices. He also mentioned persons acting in a suppressive manner. In my opinion, he didn’t delineate the difference clearly enough. In my opinion, he didn’t point out the sameness and commonality. The difference being what is weighing down on an individual currently.

    In every man lies the darkest of shadows. In every criminal, you may find the love of Gandhi and the heart of a lion. It all depends on what is on the surface, now, and how deep you are willing to dig.

    It is all there. Look for and believe in the good and true in others and it will rise to the surface. Perhaps not as much as you want at first, but the more you look, the more will come out and the more you will find.
    ARCL Mark

  89. MarkNR,

    You are right and quite poetic too.

    Well written.

    You can apply to be my content writer.


  90. Hi Brain,
    ” I got into Scientology through the Incredible Stringband. They were quite famous back in the day.”

    It took some time and research, and now I do remember that band.
    They were famous.
    New York was interesting in the 1970’s. I have a lot of fond memories.

    I think now that my Catholic background made Scientology easy to understand. Both talked of the soul and the spirit. I suspected once that Hubbard was acting in the role of Lucifer, but dismissed it as improbable.
    Much Metta,

  91. Purposes is one step below Clearing on the Awareness Scale from LRH .. this gives a picture .. you may have a purpose but are not really aware about what you are doing .. you may have the purpose to kill all flies, but you may not have the awareness about what you are doing ..

    Awareness of purpose is not the same as purpose .. purpose alone can go down to unexistence .. and it is still a purpose .. a point where awareness is very low .. purpose alone says nothing .. the whole Awareness Scale is purposes in different stages .. but lower and lower stages of awareness ..

    If I understood LRH right, you can see and handle your purposes straight when you are on Clearing .. LRH did figure that to Help as a line to Clearing and which is true, Help alone is not clearing .. but clearing purposes is close to a free man .. you should be able to clear your purpose for the better of all and anything ..

    Clearing is to shut up completely .. staying there with no purpose at all .. no attempt to do anything else than be there and look .. strange in scientology is, that you have again and again and again look into purposes .. but true is clearing is simply no purpose .. it is an awareness of being there ..

  92. Tony DePhillips

    Nicely said Marty.

  93. You said it most elequently that wich I could not say with a thousand words, Thank You Tony Tiger.

  94. I was not there DIO My friend and beautiful heckler and debating companion. But those two Videos posted on YOutube got me in motion my most hated and loved friend.

  95. That was most beautiful Oracle my most wortyhy opponent

  96. You should read Spinoza:

  97. It is deeper than that

    It is a Primal thing

  98. Yes, Cat Daddy,

    there is some truth to what you say:

    It is a Primal thing

    On one hand many people are not able to handle freedom, liberty and rights.

    They are still too low on the scale of intellectual and spiritual evolution.

    So they need dictators, sometimes benevolent and sometimes malevolent.

    Example: Libya. Libya was better off with Ghadafi as dictator then now.

    I said that when the revolution to get him began to take place.
    I could see that the Libyan society could not handle freedom and democracy.

    Their dictatorship was the lessor of two evils.
    Some people can only understand the language of force and bullets.

    Only good people, honest people, responsible people, intelligent people with common sense and good judgement can handle and deserve freedom.

    That is basically why and how advanced civilizations have a justice system.

    Justice is an action taken to deter disorder and protect public safety.

    People who are not honest, responsible, people without common sense and good judgement can have legal action taken against them and if found guilty can be institutionalized to protect public safety.

    But there is a right way and a wrong way to do almost everything.

    And I assume Marty is talking about the wrong way.

    They are the SPs, the sociopaths of society.

    Hubbard was bi polar, multiple personality conartist, and equally genuis.

    He laced or combined his criminality into the truth aspects of scientology and was dictator, absolute authority.

    (That also contradicts his words that there is no such thing as absolute in this universe. He was absolute authority in scn. At least he thought he was and he was for a term.)

    I think it was Filbert who said that the truth is the best bait in the universe.

    Hubbard used the truth as bait to achieve his own covert, diabolical, insidious evil ends.

    DM takes that idea to an even higher level on the scale of evil.


  99. I acknowledge your reply, Cat,



  100. I received this today:

    A Thought to Ponder from The Urantia Book:

    “As the years passed, this young carpenter of Nazareth increasingly measured every institution of society and every usage of religion by the unvarying test: What does it do for the human soul? does it bring God to man? does it bring man to God?”

    126:2.5 (1388.5)

    I thought it was fitting to post on this site, to add to the purpose and understanding of religion.

    The Urantia book is a phenomenal book, filled with very high theta data.

    It is available free in pdf on line.

    It is a must read for any truthseeker.

    And it is also a good body of data that could be said to be opposite to scn.

    Reading such stuff is essential to the decompression and mental balancing process after getting out of scn.

    The more such stuff you read the better it is.

    You need a mass of data of equal mass,

    and opposite comparable magnitude to scn to decompress and balance the scn experience.

    Plus some good decompressing auditing.

    Plus time.


  101. Wendy it is perfect. I am not moved that the Church of Scientology is frightened out of its mind by what is going on in the world around them. “Scientologists” burst out laughing in my face at me and behind my back that I helping friends and family up the bridge with me. Wendy, like why is that funny? 🙂

  102. I personally like this poem by Mother Teresa:

    People are often unreasonable, irrational, and self-centered. Forgive them anyway.

    If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives. Be kind anyway.

    If you are successful, you will win some unfaithful friends and some genuine enemies. Succeed anyway.

    If you are honest and sincere people may deceive you. Be honest and sincere anyway.

    What you spend years creating, others could destroy overnight. Create anyway.

    If you find serenity and happiness, some may be jealous. Be happy anyway.
    The good you do today, will often be forgotten. Do good anyway.
    Give the best you have, and it will never be enough. Give your best anyway.

    In the final analysis, it is between you and God. It was never between you and them anyway.

  103. Joe Pendleton

    I’m with you Marildi. My first thoughts on seeing Marty’s post. I think LRH got this right. High toned games and experience. Expanding Affinity, Reality and Communication.

  104. Tony DePhillips

    Hey Cat Daddy!! Good to hear your “voice”. :+)

  105. Thanks MarkNR. Good points. Also, those who would be storm troopers and support the current criminal gov instantly attack those who point out the oppressive trend. Usually by the straw-man argument that “all people are equally criminal” therefore you shouldn’t point it out. As you saw on this very thread. It is an OLD trick that has been around since at least the beginning of recored history.

  106. Watch this replay of Sid Roth’s “It’s Supernatural” show this morning, to see some real OT stuff:


    Here are a couple more good ones:



    Watch the show every week to get your fill of OT stuff.


  107. Mark C. Rathbun


  108. Watched the first show. Oy Veh.

  109. This is great!

  110. Eileen,

    What does “Oy Veh” mean?


  111. Good to hear yours Tony Tiger, Give them hell !

    I really love you

  112. L. Ron Hubbard doesn’t mention Jews and Judaism often in his lectures and writings (so far in what the editors have read) but on this occasion he seems to embrace one of the most common and widespread antisemitic myths in the world. In the rambling Aides Conference [offsite] of 2 November 1969 concerning “Covert Operations”, he believes “Jewish bankers” are funding his enemies.


  113. Amen. Thanks for sharing that!

  114. Thanks for this link Cat Daddy, some very interesting things I found foraging over there.

  115. Cat Daddy. Your comment is actually a copied and pasted quote from this anti-Scientology website/link you give here.

    I’m happy to see anybody criticize Hubbard as long as it attempts to be accurate and not motivated by hate and fear. Otherwise it is just like the stupid hate webpages that were on the Freedom hate Magazine. Also, regarding the racism issue that you post, my view is I don’t see that it is racist to say that the big bankers in Europe are Jewish; anymore than it is racist to say that the Pope and others working in the Vatican are Catholic. Another historical accounting is Des Griffin’s, Descent Into Slavery (book), Chapter 5, which gives what I think is at least some relevant history on how international financial affairs and governments in the world have been shaped over the past 250 years. This doesn’t seem to be a myth to me. I found it to be a fascinating yet horrifying study. And this has nothing to do with Scientology or anti-Scientology which is refreshing to me for a change after years of Scientology. I’ve also read all of the books Marty recommended on this blog except for one or two.
    Here is the link, and it has nothing to do with the Bible even though this Bible website is hosting the publication: http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/slavery.htm

  116. I have read Spinoza. He was SO murky as to what he thought God was or wasn’t that people are still arguing it to this very day.

  117. Al Brown. The quote (the important part) is from El Ron himself. Not only was he lying about huge amounts of money flowing into these countries because of his actions, he goes after Jews for no REAL reason.

  118. A discussion about purpose is a discussion of metaphysics. That noted, I recently discovered a young author and illustrator that has written and drawn four graphic novels where he, IMO, does an incredible job of explaining what cannot be explained. I very much recommend checking his work out. You can preview his books on his website.


  119. Hello! I’m just weighing in as a person who has only recently become aware of the true nature of scientology (by exposure to ‘Going Clear’ and subsequent extensive research.)

    I guess you could say I lived under a rock, lol… to have lived this long and been totally unaware of even what THEY say they are/believe. Heck, I thought, by the name ‘scientology’ it was a belief system that revered Science over Religion.

    So I have a few things to toss into the conversation:

    1) First, I thank my lucky stars that I was never sucked into this bizarre brain-washing cult when I was a young, impressionable, idealistic teenager. I was never approached. I knew not of its existence back then. (And obviously am exceedingly thankful I was not BORN into this repressive cult!)

    2) I am in awe of the ability of those who have broken free, to have the guts and the strength-of-spirit to speak openly and honestly, warning clueless people (like myself) of this dangerous organization.

    3) And finally… why oh why oh why, since these brave folks have been vocal for a number of years already… why has the US Gov/FBI/Law Enforcement not intervened as of yet to shut down this evil organization??? Are there scientologists within the ranks of these? I just don’t get it! There is so much corroborating information available on the Internet regarding systemic abuse of American people and neglect of children, there is simply NO excuse that the US Government and Law Enforcement remain idle!

    (That is the one piece of the puzzle that I cannot find on the ‘Net!)

    A thousand thank-yous to the vocal survivors of this madness!

  120. It means I was distressed by the video. Google Oy Veh.

  121. Eileen,

    I did look it up.

    It has more than one meaning.

    That is why I asked you.


  122. So glad you bought up hate and fear motivation. It does go under the heading of purpose. So, I see there is some objection to people hoarding money and resources and some targets about it. On the money sec check “Have you hoarded money” is one of the questions. Laughter! Hubbard died with quite a stash.

    I think the point in any act, is that it is possible to hate the act and not hate the person for doing it. If you hate the act of hoarding money or banking, well, doesn’t mean you need to hate someone for doing it. You can hate the act and not the person.

    I have wondered a lot about the hate from people leaving the Church and how it is acquired as part of a person’s chemistry.

    In the Church, “The act” is the big deal. “The overt or whatever. And there is all of this justice and labeling on top of a thetan because of an “act”. Well some acts do cause me to distance myself from people pretty quick. But not petty overts. It is just an act. It is not the being. In the Church of Scientology “the act” is used to hate the being, shun the being, punish the being, shame the being, judge the being, harm attack and suppress the being. And you have these people at the top of the grade chart now, sec checks and their ACTS gone over like a fine tooth comb.

    It’s the opposite there. If you hate the act you hate the being. There is no differentiation. There is no, separation. Like, you can hate an act or dislike an act, and realize that is just a simple act and separate from the being.

    Not sure why anyone would hate Jewish people because they are bankers, because they hoarded some cash. Not sure Hubbard was lying and I don’t know enough about economics to comment on the structure.

    I just know that nobody has to hate anybody.

  123. In our information age credibility is the scarcest resource.

  124. Not to imply “must hate” is exclusive to any one group or person. The easiest way to cripple and dominate others is the sock them into “must hate”. By socking them into that, you create weapons like the ones used in 9/11. What hate groups and hate movements are, are. people socked into “must hate”. Scientologists generally have a big hate list. It is part of the teachings and now the main part of the culture. It grows when they leave to include the Church itself.

    The reverse can be just as oppressive. To be “holy” one “can’t hate”.

    Personally, I think Ghandi’s greatest source of power was that he could hate the act of slavery and suppression, and still not hate the people enforcing it. And Martin Luther King took a similar route. These people tapped into unusual magical power / or “higher power” in that regard.

  125. Thanks Oracle. I shouldn’t have defended Hubbard using the term “Jewish Bankers”. I know that I have never talked like that myself. It does feel racist now that I think about it. I know many use that term when writing about this banking subject. I think many of the writers on this subject have a Christian orientation. Maybe that is why. Maybe there is some hate there when they say that. It does feel like it. I am not religious. I got used to hearing the term.

    Hoarding money is good. But I do have a problem with the fact that every government/country in the world is in debt to these international sovereign bankers based in Europe. They call the shots. That’s the entirety of the subject. Pimps give the orders. Hubbard discovered this as well and announced the fact.

  126. I mostly made my original comment because I didn’t want the racism charge against Hubbard to get in the way of what he was actually communicating in his lecture. That’s why I gave the link so anybody could get some non-Scientology info as desired or not and further evaluate or not.

  127. Miss Oracle.

    What a wonderful essay. And so, so much truth. Not only that, the lofty goal of having the ability to separate another’s act from the being beneath. But such a worthwhile goal and one which is reachable on a gradient.

    I would even suggest that people read it twice, my highest compliment.

  128. I would discuss it further, but there is just not much I can add.

  129. Evening John, good to speak to you.

    You said, “the current criminal gov”. I look at and for individuals as much as possible when doing any evaluation of a group. But when so many individuals collaborate and follow the lead of a few, it becomes a group think and a group overt. The group, as a whole, can become corrupt and evil indeed. Honest individuals within the group can become suppressed and merely pieces of machinery, ineffective in adding any ethics to the group.

    But the solution is still exposing and thwarting the actions of particular individuals who are guiding the groups actions. It is rarely done since the diligence required is so great, a tactic often used by harmful individuals to hide within the group.

    This principle is simple and well known, but rarely has the proper grade weight placed upon it.

  130. Why, thank you, Dio.

    I never considered myself much of a writer, but maybe I get lucky every now and then. I have learned a few things about purposes lately, and I wanted to relay some of them. Glad you enjoyed it. I read an enjoy all your posts. Keep it up.

  131. I also read Malcolm X’s autobiography a few years ago and since I am a white man with blue eyes I listened to him call me a “blue-eyed white devil” about 2000 times. I survived. I also got to hear what he had to say which was the important thing! I was hoping people might do the same for Hubbard and hear him out on what he ran into with the international bankers instead of hanging up on racism. Or better still get some info outside of Scientology and further evaluate. But maybe not.

    I don’t know how the Nation of Islam is handling Hubbard’s racism now. Maybe they are dealing with it the way I always have. I grew up in middle class Georgia in the 1950’s and 1960’s with the “N” word all around me. I never used the word as it wasn’t in my heart. Then when I was 25 years old I ended up in Los Angeles flat broke and without a car and the only job offer I had was a door-to-door job selling meat in South Central Los Angeles, Watts, Inglewood, Crenshaw District, Compton…. So there I was in 1976 as a skinny white kid in the hood running around door-to-door. I would go all day without seeing another white person. I was wildly successful and ended up with my own business and 14 trucks serving those neighborhoods doing home freezer plans. One evening right after the sun had gone down two teenage gangsters surprised me and fired every bullet in their gun at me point blank standing 15 feet in front of me. Every bullet missed me but I still have pictures of my bullet-riddled truck. It was nice not to have bad stuff in my heart. Bullets always missed me. After 10 years I started too feel some bad stuff in my heart – that is the day I quit the business as I knew with that I’d be dead quick.

  132. “Jewish bankers” went right over my head too Al. The same as if he had said “Scottish bankers”.

    How that got translated to “He went after the Jews” , I will never know.

    If he had said , “Scottish bankers” or, “Austrian bankers”, or “fat bankers” or “bald headed bankers”, or, “greedy bankers”, not sure it would have become such an issue. It’s an issue because someone made it an issue. Doesn’t mean he was a racist towards Jewish people in my mind. I guess you can look at it anyway you want to. It seemed he honored he Jewish people in the Sci fi series “Mission Earth”. At least, he implied the only friend of the hero that could be trusted was a Jewish man.

    That said, he has made some disparaging remarks about other cultures, professions and people. If he talked stupid sometimes, oh well. I’m not seeking, “reason’s to hate Hubbard.”

    It’s kind of refreshing that this blog is more of a present time blog where people can exchange their own thoughts and ideas. Not about a guilty verdict or a with hunt. But about what’s going on. Now.

    It’s late in the evening. The stars are still the same promise that they have been to sailors and shepards . It’s quiet here. I’m in a good place. And this is going out to from WORKL.


  133. Posted a funky link to a weird mix.

    This one is better:

  134. A local channeler said that the earth’s banking cartel who run the debt money system, are the minions of an off planet organization called the Marcabians.


  135. Midge Zylker

    Another insightful post, and thoughtful responses.

    Life is good! Much of it, due to you, my friend.

    I’m sure you’re much happier since you’ve returned “home”.

    My wish for you, Mosey & Billy is right outta the 60’s: Love & Peace.

    XO, Midge

    Love, Midge

  136. Thanks Oracle. Yeah, in 40 years it never crossed my mind that Hubbard was racist. But if others say they are offended in anyway I usually say “OK. I can see that sounds racist” mainly because I don’t talk like that personally. I’d rather study the actual issues and not someone’s real or imagined flaws, as you say as well you are “not seeking ‘reasons to hate Hubbard’ “.

  137. … “Also, regarding the racism issue that you post, my view is I don’t see that it is racist to say that the big bankers in Europe are Jewish; anymore than it is racist to say that the Pope and others working in the Vatican are Catholic.”…
    Are you saying that money is the religion of Jews? Seems pretty racist to me. Looks like you traded Scientology for another deluded conspiracy theory.

  138. You said, “the current criminal gov”. I look at and for individuals as much as possible when doing any evaluation of a group.

    Of course. That is assumed when dealing with this subject. There are many individuals inside and outside the “government” that are guiding it. It is impractical when discussing it to stop and list all of those people. If I state, “The Nazi” (national socialist) government created a policy of killing Jews.” I won’t stop and then list all the movers and detail the exact role each played.

    I simply used the example to highlight an old trick to used by sociopaths to deflect people from trying to find out who those people are and what they are doing.

  139. Thank you Mark. Too generous. XXOO

  140. I read Malcolm’s book. His views on whites did not disturb me either. I have black friends that rant about white people. Laughter! I never feel like it is directed towards me. Laughter!

    Interesting you story you shared, thanks.

  141. No, he never said money is the religion of Jews. You did. I did not get any message of ill will or slander from his post towards anybody.

    He does not come off as deluded to me, either.

  142. Eileen asks: “Are you saying that money is the religion of Jews?”
    No. I am not. But I will say that for anyone easily bruised by Hubbard saying “Jewish Bankers” you certainly don’t want to listen to Hubbard’s RJ 67 as you will get an earful plus the “conspiracy theory” as a bonus. And you don’t want to read the link that Cat Daddy posted above that started this thread as you might discover what our conversations are about here.

  143. I think the real issue here about the power families in the banking industry, is that if they are Jewish, why would someone be uncomfortable with that? It’s fine with me if they are Jewish. In fact, it brings me comfort. And if they do have some power, why is that a crime? They aren’t exactly stupid as a culture. They are one of the oldest and most learned tribes on this planet. They keep a healthy culture going among themselves that is truly symbiotic. They don’t need to apologize to anyone about anything. Not for who they are and certainly not for what they have. It does not aggravate me in any way if they have power or wealth. If it were not for David Plouffe, Obama would not be sitting in the White House.

  144. The thing is, why would someone say, “Hubbard is racist because he points out the Jewish have money and power” “Hubbard went after the Jews because he pointed out they have money and power.”. Unless the person protesting about Hubbard pointing out the Jewish have money and power, has some pre conceived notion that it is a crime or overt for Jewish people to have money and power? Therefore it should not be mentioned because it is some kind of crime.

  145. Al, if the quote did not strike you as racist, perhaps it is because you are not a racist. It is kind of sad that someone is now accusing of being racist, because you mentioned you didn’t take the comment as being racist. But no matter, the math on this isn’t very complex.

  146. Yes it is Al. However, you didn’t address what LRH wrote (as shown in that quote where he smears Jews) and how he lied about the money the Apollo brought into those ports.

  147. I agree with you T.O., on that point.

    It is an honest overview assessment.

    Anyone interested in the origins of modern banking, and anyone who criticizes the Jews (actually the Rothchilds) should read a few books on how it all got started.

    Here is a brief watered down summary of it:


    At the bottom of the sketpoid article are listed a few books, that will give you more of a complete story.

    Much, if not all of what is said about them in the public domain of conspiracy theories, talk shows, and “over a beer- bullshit sessions” and on blogs, does not stand up to scrutiny.


  148. Did not see this untill now.

    “Also, regarding the racism issue that you post,”


    If the most excellent wife of Marty Rathbun wasn’t bussy kiccking some ass, I would have left it. but for you:


  149. OH YES YOU MOFO: chew on this:

  150. Bloggers here have spoken. When Hubbard reported in 1967 and 1967 of the trouble he was having that his wife traced back to the Bank of England, the truth has finally been revealed now on this blog that he was really just suffering from too many beers, “bullshit sessions”, etc……. or was it racism that he was suffering from because he used the word “Jewish”? Opinions vary. And I sure hope no one ever notices that I am a “white” man, because just that thought would be a racist crime against me. But I’m happy to learn here from comments there really is no subject of global finance and economics and we really don’t have any inflation in the world and no countries are bankrupt and all of our dollars are securely backed by gold. And copying and pasting hate on this blog from the internet as was done earlier on this thread really helps everyone. And if one doesn’t like someone’s opinion, just write that they are a “MOFO”, as was done earlier on this thread. There is a job opening somewhere I am sure for that kind of skill…Freedom Magazine maybe? But I’m learning here. I wonder if I am a creep?!

  151. Oh, and I almost forgot something: I realize that church members sometimes go to these blogs belonging for former high level church execs hoping to find answers to their dilemmas in life hoping to discover why their lives are broken and destroyed. They are looking for answers. Sometimes they are looking to stay alive. Maybe if they could find some lampooning people who jump around on these blogs using the term “El Con” and such. Maybe that will attract them to read more and help reunite their families and save their lives.

  152. I mean just one lampooning guy being cool by saying the term “El Con” a thousand times a year on these blogs could tip Cruise, Travolta and Alley to read more.

  153. Good point Al. Comes back to PURPOSE which is the heading of this thread. If your purpose is to offend, then you will offend people. If your purpose is to “work it out”, then you can work things out with people.
    Happy Sunday!

  154. Thanks Oracle.

  155. Thanks for your contributions on this subject Oracle. The subject of international banking is a little heavy for this blog, but I am not the one who first brought it up. Hubbard made mistakes and he did some right things. And he did upset some people in high places. I’ve read every administrative policy he ever wrote and I’ve studied his policies on economics backwards and forwards so occasionally I get in the mood that he get a fair shake and not just hate. Hate seems to satisfy the appetites of many. So many have been mislead over the centuries by blood thirst. I don’t really consider myself an independent Scientologist anymore at all because Fair Gaming against each other seems ingrained in the X church members. I’ve had it in my life very intimately since I quit the church.

  156. Hello Al.
    You said: ” I’ve read every administrative policy he ever wrote and I’ve studied his policies on economics backwards and forwards so occasionally I get in the mood that he get a fair shake and not just hate.”

    Strangely, that reminds me of the movie I Robot with Will Smith. In the movie, the founder of the three laws of robotics, Never harm a human or allow, etc, etc, realized, before his death, that the three laws could lead to only one outcome, REVOLUTION.

    Now, the three laws were devised with the best of intentions and carefully thought out with the purpose of protecting people from the machines they created. But the outcome was not what they anticipated. The creator had a specific purpose in writing the laws which could not be fully articulated in words, which could not be fully understood and agreed to by all who were affected or involved in the implementation of the three laws.

    Mr. Hubbard had specific purposes for his administrative and economic policies, most of which were to Do things Right and Do things Fully. A few of his policies were a case reaction to attacks, whether real or imagined, which have had unanticipated consequences, many of which have been discussed in this and other forums.

    But as you seemed to indicate to me, the value of his works often get lost among the errors he may have made or misunderstandings some people had. Most of which come from individuals not comprehending the primary purpose of the policies or skewing or altering the policies to fit their own purposes.

    MOST, NOT ALL. But there is a wealth of information to be had if one can separate the errors from the accurate and useful data. If the original purposes are understood then one can realize when to use the letter of policies and when to create actions in present time that do not follow the policies exactly. The ability to evaluate actions, intentions in present time and to predict outcome. A never ending learning curve, but a valuable one.

    I do not defend Hubbard, I use what has proven correct and seek to correct or clarify data disseminated by many individuals.

    Thanks for listening, Mark.

  157. Thanks Oracle. My first comment on this issue suggested getting past the hate and racism charge to see what Hubbard was actually talking about in the 1969 Aides Conference that Cat Daddy posted. I stated that I found the subject fascinating. You first responded to my comment saying you thought there was some “objection to hoarding money.” That was your subject and words and not mine. I’ve never seen such a thing. I don’t know if you read the 1969 issue or not. I only suggested it was worthy of attention. When Hubbard first gave data on the same subject for the first time in 1967 in his RJ 67 briefing he launched the entire freaking Sea Org so maybe there is something to it. That is my PURPOSE – to ask others to look. Sometimes I offend. The fact that no one looked is just what it is. I’m not here to make friends and get along but if I decide to do that at least people have my real name.

  158. Well, um..when the link was first posted I got into the research on the black propaganda campaign which I found interesting. And to me the accusation was about hoarding money. I didn’t get it that the main charge was about racism, I went onto the issue of money and propaganda.

    I guess some others wanted to bring the charge of racism and take that up here, but we were talking about different things for a while because the link has many angles.

    The good news is, is that there is very little infighting or personal attacks going on between peoples now on most of the blogs and forums.

    I consider this blog the “Cafe society” of the conversations because it is the most civilized. But that is not to say someone won’t toss a drink in your face from time to time. But overall, these times are the most peaceful times I have seen and people are treating one another very well usually.

    Sometimes people bang back a few at home and get a little frisky. When I drink and post the blog gets flooded with music videos and laments about love. Not sure which is more sickening. LAUGHTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  159. Long live differences my dear Oracle. I truly appreciate your deep thinking philosophical mind. Thank you so much for our exchanges over these years.
    I believe I have “run out” my Scientology mystery to a great degree. Many uninspected thoughts and feelings about my experience has been resolved in me as a result of this blog.

    Thank you everyone. I may be done for a while. Maybe 🙂

    Love Always,

  160. Hey George,

    Sorry for delay in response. Our very recent exchanges have caused a sort of “end phenomenon” in my interests in uncovering my Scientology imprinting and education. Thank you George!

    When I assumed as true, Ron as the “hypnotic operator”, something in me resolved on a deep level. The parts finally fit together…….for me.

    This is the mystery solved. Ron was a Freudian metaphysical fabulist and congenital liar with an insatiable thirst for personal power and money and willing to use psycho manipulating techniques on us.

    To keep his lies in the realm of believability he used Altitude Instruction and threat of punishment. End of story.

    Somehow now, the need and motive to uncover my hidden thoughts and share them with you all has reached an end. Or so it seems at this point.

    I am grateful to you Marty for your Road to Damascus story that has helped “moving us all up a little higher.”

    To Marildi and Oracle I wish you all the very best in all you do.

    May this Scientology diaspora spread soul seeds throughout the world.
    May truth seekers continue being truth seekers
    May broken families be brought back together.

    And may the truth always shine on the inequities of this ignorant and potentially dangerous doctrine called Scientology.

    When I first came to this site hardly anyone mentioned Ron as the source of this craziness.

    Now its ok. That makes me happy.

    Love and Blessings to you all

  161. Brian,

    Good words and right words,


  162. @Timmi .. when you are in the church and are on service with your goals for it .. you will be far far away from realising or seeing the bullshit you are doing .. you accumulating wins (which is basically good) .. but this wins are normally gone short time later .. like “I am now exterior forever and now I understand everything” .. unfortunately nobody could ever stay with such wins ..

    I remember a time in 1977 where suddenly was nearly everyone Clear .. it looked impossible, and at the same time it was not clear what a Clear really is .. Cause over mental MEST for your own first dynamic ..

    I mentioned hereto, this is always true for everybody here on earth .. it is nothing really specific .. everybody can attest that ..

    As later said : I would not longer have my own reactive mind” .. what was it then .. it implied the idea that I could have reactive minds of others .. but if so, why has nobody mentioned that before? How do you know it is a mind of another?

    If you are in this play you will not find out anything. Is it you, is it another or is it simply imagination .. I favour the last one ..

  163. I am myself, Marty and Monique thank you for just being yourself

  164. Tom Gallagher


    I thought I’d mention that I just ordered TWO more copies of “The Sociopath Next Door” by Martha Stout. I never was able to retrieve my original copy. Go figure…….. It’s still making the rounds or more likely tucked away by someone without a conscience. LOL.

    It’s one of the most eye-opening books I’ve ever read. It sure cleared up a lot of BS from the PTS/SP course.

    All the best to you and yours!


  165. Mark C. Rathbun

    Thanks Tom.

  166. Evening Mark (Marty). So glad to see that you are still commenting and stimulating comments. It would leave a large hole if you withdrew from writing.

    If you would grant me a little grace, I would like to report on some recent findings which deal intimately with purposes. They are my findings alone and may only be entertaining to your readers. Perhaps more to some.

    FPRD. False Purpose Rundown. I never had this auditing nor am I an FPRD auditor. I’ve read many things about it and talked to those receiving and doing it. It was a bit of a stretch and a bit simplistic to state that false purposes are caused primarily by misdeeds, errors in the past. But I suppose marketing had a bit to do with that.
    But it does consist mainly of following chains of overts to a basic with similarities to R3, similar to my primary method of self past examination. But the idea is perfectly valid. Engram chains discover what was done to you, FPRD discovers what you have done. The other flow, except that you are following the errors, not necessarily the pain you caused.
    The lock that holds it all together is supposedly the prior confusion which triggered the error in the first place. The theory that no error can be committed without some confusion, since the thetan is basically perfect. Sounds logical, and many people had very significant gains from honest FPRD auditing. I decided to develop a similar system for myself based on these principles. I’ve had quite a bit of experience tracking connected events, emotions, traumas, ideas, etc.
    After a few hundred hours and a few thousand incidents I had great results and many revelations. But there seemed to be something missing, incomplete.
    I then remembered that someone once said that an overt is always the result of an effort to solve a problem. So I scanned back over several of the chains which were supposedly complete. With several chains, I had discovered the problem and effort, without noticing the significance of following the subject of problems. So I looked again. Magic.
    I first looked for and traced back the real why as to why I created the problem. Then I looked for the real reason that I desired the problem. This got me much further back. The confusion was always a result of a desire to not know something in order to have randomity, interaction, occurrence. I then added my system of tracking back up the track to gain a thorough understanding of how these decisions and factors have affected me since.
    Once again, I have a completely new and wondrous life. I have to many to thank for their ideas and assistance. But I must emphasize that that one must realize that they are the sole owners of their own state and must fully take on the task of digging themselves out. Like climbing a great mountain, there is an enormous satisfaction with each ledge reached.

    Happy climbing.

  167. I have just about come to a point where I am at peace with and have a great knowledge of my past. It is about time to dive in to the future by going over original OT4-7 again, with the addition of the things I have learned in the past few years. I think it will be even more fun. There will always be things in the past which I will need to clear up from time to time. No Problem. Idenics may have some additional information or techniques. I have also found a new and additional interest in the Eastern religions. In fact, there’s more to do than ever. Life is full.

    ARCL, Mark

  168. Hi Brain,
    Nice to hear from you! Your words are wise and soothing. (I just had a problem with my internet connection and lost some words. So I will
    try to summarize.)
    I read a few days ago that in the late 19th Century followers of the Theosophical society entered a Burmese Buddhist Temple and mocked the monks as frauds. It sounded to me like Hubbard in “History of Man” mocking the mystics. The Theosophical society claimed that they had the truth and that they were in touch with the great masters of the past. Hubbard clearly had no mystical experience and only described his own idea of its failure. So this story goes round and round. Hubbard never penetrated Nama Rupa (Pali: name and form), the most basic step in mysticism. This can be proved
    by a careful analysis of his Philadelphia Lectures.
    I express my gratitude also to all members of this blog. This has been a fabulous journey. I realize now that the subject of religion is highly personal.
    May all Being be well and Happy!

  169. Hi Brian,
    One of my turning points happened when I realized that Hubbard was dealing only with a small percentage of the mind. Ironically, he had this universal “covering” with his engram in Dianetics. But as the years went on he tried all sorts of techniques and processes which had limited results. So the bridge got longer and longer. He had to seek a solution in demons. Solo Nots was so long because Hubbard only penetrated a small percentage of the mind. In this smaller part of the mind, Hubbard could boast of all sorts of theta powers. In reality, he had a subjective solution. Thank God I got out before the realease a Super Powers a few years ago. Now this idea of the hypnotic operator comes in. Standing on the wrong limited platform, he could never reach his goal. Thus he had to manufacture all sorts of sideline ideas like Xenu. I like the hypnotic operator. It fits in.

  170. I would like to hear from some FPRD auditors. There are different directions and techniques one can go on this. I am quite curious to hear what produced good results for others and where problems occurred.

  171. George,

    You are on the right track. He kept on inventing crazier stuff as time went on. And charging higher and higher prices for the crazier stuff.
    It was also a formula to take the suckers to the cleaners.
    He laced in just enough truth to keep people gobbling up the bait.


  172. Cage Rattler

    I would like to hear more on that story, sounds quite interesting. Fear freezes you in thought and action, it’s important to confront your fears head on lest you become motivated by them. A man motivated by fear is no man at all.

    What do you fear?

  173. Hi Timmi,
    I was in for 17 years and hit the highest OT 8 level.
    The government is powerless to do anything because of First Ammendment
    protection. Basically, it has been ruled by the courts that you can believe anything you want as long as it is a “system of belief”.
    Furthermore, the internal affairs of the “Church” cannot be “pierced” because the followers sign at the beginning to follow all of the brutal rules.
    You get a standoff in the courts. “Going Clear” reports brutality but the law protects Scientology.

  174. @MarkNR .. Routine 3 is run in flows, so it includes you to another ..

  175. LRH found allegedly out that there is a basic confusion (or whatever it was) which leads you to overts .. on other places he said it is miscommunication which leads to miscontrol .. and which gives you Help ..

    So anyway, all misdeeds or overt acts are an attempt to help .. if you put the idea of confusion to it .. it gets really complicated .. help has to be put into selective views .. so you help some and harm some others at the same time ..

    What had the FPRD done for a fanatic Nazi (Hitler fan) .. I think nothing, it had only worked on a anti-Nazi .. why? Oh yeah, only he had the confusion about what was going on .. the Nazi had no confusion .. he did run on help.

    Help depends on the view what you will help. If you have a bad lack of control and communication .. you will always hang up in confusion .. so the findings of LRH that false purpose .. acting against others .. is not really a highlight in his works .. in my view, it will only handle such persons which were right in the first place .. not the wrong ones ..

    How to create a confusion? Give two stable data which do not fit together.

  176. Hello my Friend.
    Yes, 4 flows plus the fifth flow which comes up occasionally, but when it does, it adds further understanding.
    The FPRD as I have researched it for myself specifically follows a chain of overts/errors. It can be related to and cross chains with running engram chains but it drills in on a particular area of case. It has the potential and has been effective for me in finding early decisions, stuck opinions that I did nor find by other means.

    I would like to know if there are additional techniques and question lists or additional areas to look at that I am not familiar with. I would like to research these to find out what is effective for me and report my results to others.

    If you have any information or know of sites where I can get specific info it would be helpful.
    Thanks, Mark
    P.S. Fifth flow: A moment that you acquired a purpose, intention, opinion from someone else with little interaction or trauma or emotion. It has as it’s basis, admiration for the other and will often include an observed believed win for the other. There was an agreement and adoption of the others purpose. It is for occasional use only when the origin of a purpose, intention cannot otherwise be found. I have an essay detailing specific use of this additional tech if you would like to see it.

  177. Hello Friend.
    You said: “How to create a confusion? Give two stable data which do not fit together.”

    Hmmmm.. How to gain, or return, the ability to release any stable datum when it is found to be false, partially false or inappropriate.

    Sounds like a challenge, I love it. I’ll let you know if I find anything. Let me know if you have found anything or if you find something in the future.

  178. According to Buddhism, the main purpose of man is happiness and to not suffer.

    Any other purpose is an attempt to fulfill the main purpose.

    Our sufferings come from the fact that we select wrong secondary purposes that in fact do not allow us to attain this main purpose of happiness.

    One of the first steps in order to select the proper secondary purposes, is to realize that we cannot be really happy when others suffer, as we have strong connections with others, even when we do not see them, and that in order to reach that main goal, we have to extend it to others.

    So we have to reword our main goal:
    Our main goal is happiness, for ourselves and for others.

  179. If I remember right .. originally LRH gave the advice to take a stable datum and the confusion will vanish .. which is basically right .. later he said that the stable datum is the source for the confusion .. which is quite the reverse of his earlier statement .. but not necessarily at all .. both are true ..

    As I said above in this thread, purposes is below clearing on the awareness scale from LRH. At purposes you will pick up some stable data, and on clearing you throw them away .. but at purposes you are aware of it .. this is the difference to a person who is unaware of his purpose .. so the last one can use a wilderness of stable data .. mostly do not really know that he use a stable data and from where it comes ..

    The workability of auditing is pretty good for people who are unaware of his purposes .. and also about his stable data .. but they have confusions too ..

    For my own view, the FPRD will never handle anything about. One cannot reach the basic of it without understanding .. your own understanding, not the understanding of another .. but how you will go this way?

    The possibilities to have confusions is much greater than the possibility to understand. Therefore we have communication .. it can solve that ..

    Finally, erasing any stable data will bring you up to Clear and OT .. only in Scientology you get so many stable data .. so that you will never become OT .. so there are two stable data who do not fit together .. will never ..

    You get my viewpoint? I think LRH did flunk on this himself .. there is an old question from me: Why have OTs have to get Sec Checks? It is pure total nonsens if you know the tech about Clear and OT .. but there is no real tech there when you have always again and again and again to check your purposes .. it is simply a confusion about stable data ..

  180. Your fifth flow is not mentioned by LRH when he described the seven flows in a HCOB .. your fifth flow is a specific .. something on what you have attention yourself ..

    All flows have the same pattern .. it is a flow .. so you can have disturb, ridge and flow .. which are all flow .. but in different stages ..

    Back to Nazi .. Adolf .. he created a flow out of a ridge and caused disturb for mostly everyone .. but at the beginning it was a flow .. and a lot of people did pick up his flow and were with him ..

  181. All unhappiness comes from the pursuit of happiness.

    The trouble with trouble, is that it often starts out fun.


  182. Marty we must invite people to post even negative comments to this and still respect them.

  183. grannydeepsea

    Well put, Curiosus! A perfect goal for humanity. Good for one and all, like the Kalama Sutra says.

  184. Hello Friend.
    Thank you for all the valuable info and the wonderful conversation.

    You referenced LRH: “….originally LRH gave the advice to take a stable datum and the confusion will vanish .. which is basically right .. later he said that the stable datum is the source for the confusion .. which is quite the reverse of his earlier statement….” But then you said “…not necessarily at all .. both are true .. ”

    From my observations, this is quite an astute statement, very insightful. My findings are that when one adopts a stable datum as their own, it clears up confusion for them. The datum need not necessarily be true or stable for others to be stable for you and resolve confusions for you. Example: You hear and believe and adopt the idea that if coyotes see you out, they will chase you and kill you. OK. Every time you are out and you see coyotes, you run, or get in your buggy, or get in a bldg. No problem, no confusion, no ridge. Someone disagrees and you say fine, but I’m not going near wild coyotes. You live 60-80 yrs and are never killed by coyotes. Stable for you. No problem.
    173 years later, your granddad takes you out to feed the pigs. You see coyotes and get scared. He says “Don’t worry, they won’t mess with you. Now take this bucket and feed the pigs out around back.” You are terrified. You KNOW that if they see you they will chase you down. You don’t know how you know, you just know. The pigs don’t get fed, they dig a hole under the fence and get out. Now you got all kinds of charge, confusion, overts. And you miss that pork roast to boot.
    The problem is that the stable datum became stuck, forgotten. It then caused a problem. Your Granddad was wise, always right, but he couldn’t be right, he said the coyotes wouldn’t mess with you. What to do, what to do. (An actual example from my past.)
    It didn’t become a problem until it became stuck, forgotten and then bumped up against another stable datum. Granddad was not always right, but he was to me. It was stable for me.

    The stable datum resolves and prevents confusions for you whether true or not, until you lose mastery over it. Until you lose the ability to change your mind.
    Your thoughts?
    PS: The Hitler Nazi thing was a good example.

  185. Friend.
    Thank you much for the info on stable datum. This is closely related to but not identical to my invention, the fifth auditing flow. An opinion, postulate, stable datum, operating principle which was gained from someone else. Always with affinity, admiration.
    Thank you especially for the info on help, failed help and it’s relationship to confusions and overts. I am making up a prepared list of assessment questions which include help, failed help, successful help and a few other things. This I will use to go over the overt chains which I solo’d over the last few months. I will use the meter to find unresolved questions which occurred in the MEST universe. Pre MEST universe occurrences react differently or usually not at all on a meter. But, for me, there are other ways to bring up things which I am unaware of. Pre MEST universe occurrences which react at all on a meter always have later related incidents which remain unseen, or undiscovered important data which I didn’t find when I went over it the first time.

    Many of the things that I have gone over are fully resolved, but I have a feeling that the subject of help will bring up some more. All subjects seem to relate when taken back to the early track. Any more suggestions are appreciated.

  186. Cat,

    That is high theta operating data.


  187. As a stable datum, it seems that corrupt people self destruct… there are not too many examples in history to the contrary… and those perhaps only apparently.

    It is necessary to be honest, compassionate and giving in order to have a good life and die gracefully.

    Some of that is genetic (search ‘ancestral memory’ its old, established and accepted science. ( It supports much of Hubbards technology btw. it would form the basis for auditing, it is unfortunate that greed or whatever left Hubbard devoid of compassion and honesty as he aged. He paid the price for that.)

    I have as well, I walked that knife edge for decades, the damage is now starting to heal since I have moved a few miles south (a small Mayan Village in the Yucatan).


    Reed Slatkin, died, July 22 or so, 2015

    Reed Slatkin, scn minister, who ran the largest ponsi scheme in US history prior to Bernie Maddoff, got out of prison and was living in a half way house in 2013, then released and went home… he was apparently living alone when he had a heart attack (age 66), he made it to the hospital alone and dropped dead as he walked in, July 22 or so, 2015.

    A picture of him in prison is revealing (search google images). Just yesterday for some reason I was thinking of him and hoping that he was not let let out early… to the credit of the state, he was not, he served his full 14 years… someone in charge had a clue about the cult.

    If Reed had not been greedy and without compassion he would have enjoyed his life in the slammer.. many have.. and these came out the better for it… they helped others while in, got college degrees etc.. those types came out joyous.

    The halmark of a life lived decently, regardless the circumstances.

    Phil Scott

  188. It is that time again:

  189. +1

    May all beings be well, happy and peaceful!
    I pay homage to the blessed one, the noble one, the fully enlightened one!


  190. True that. So very well said. You have brightened my night.

  191. I’ve been thinking about purpose and how it ties in with happiness. When you are involved in Scientology it is drilled into one constantly, that the only reason for unhappiness is your own crimes. (Overts and with holds). You see the “Happiness Rundown” and other rundowns, a very large percentage of the tech is to help one confront their crimes. I have had many of these rundowns, sec checks and have written O/W’s. Sure, it helps one to unload. Not when it is enforced though. But anyway, one begins to devlope this idea that all unhappiness is related to your own wrong doings and short comings. And it just is not true.

    There are a thousand things that can make one unhappy during the course of a day. Just being stuck in traffic! Losses. Illness. Watching someone else feel bad! And really a person not feeling their own purpose can become quite miserable.

    It is a real mind f&(*^%g issue in the Church to begin to believe that all of your unhappiness is related to your own crimes. It just is not true.

    And one major source of unhappiness is failed purposes and not feeling your purpose.

    Hubbard lived the life he wanted to live, for the most part.

    Other people need that too. I feel very bad for the people that feel bad, and think it is all about their crimes. Of course then in the Church they do not say, “I feel depressed or sad.” They will then be interrogated. But there were a lot of very unhappy in Scientology that put it all on themselves as being due to their own crimes. And a self loathing was cast about them.

    This was so wrong. And I think, why you do not see a lot of mercy and compassion in that culture. If you think of what it is you are unhappy about, it is usually a real issue and your real item. If you are unhappy because the car broke down, that IS the item. If you are unhappy because you want something you can not have, that IS your item. If you are unhappy because you can do something you want to do or go somewhere you want to go, that IS your item.

    This idea that overts and with holds are everybody’s why and what and the only item for unhappiness, is a blatant wrongness.

    People know what is making them unhappy. Their items never get accepted in the Church.

    It’s really tragic. A clear is a human being that can be made very sad, angry, hostile or anything else a human is capable of. Even much more so.

    This idea that a clear is happy 24/7, and if he isn’t he has overts, is just wrong. I’m sorry, it’s wrong. But this sold the Dianetics books. And Lord knows Dianetics helped a lot of people. But life is an ongoing thing and people feel. One can become even more vulnerable, after clear. Love harder, care more, and loose big.

    But knowing and having your purpose very clear in your mind, is a huge source of happiness. And havingness.

    Most of us do have a purpose to make the world a better place. And you can do that every day without permission from anyone else.

  192. And most of us have made the world a better place. Just by being in it.

  193. Another thing I think Hubbard got wrong, is telling people Earth is a dumping ground for undesirables. That right away puts an item on people. Sure, there may be some undesirables here. But not the majority. The people here have made for the most part, given proper tools and resources, a beautiful world. It might not be perfect, and some places are better than others. But all were created by beings and most of it, is quite beautiful if you look for the beauty. You can find it almost everywhere and in all people. I can’t say how everyone else ended up here. But I volunteered for this life and I think a lot of other people have also.

  194. “This idea that overts and with holds are everybody’s why and what and the only item for unhappiness, is a blatant wrongness.”

    Very true in Theravada Buddhism as well. This was drilled into me in my first lesson with a new teacher in 2003. He is a senior monk now living in Sri Lanka. He said quite plainly that the wind could knock a tree on your head and it might not be your past karma. Hey, it’s the wind and mother nature. In Theravada we are heirs to our karma, but we do not know when or if the effects will be manifest. Hubbard got a lot of things wrong and this overt idea is one of them. He tried to get very specific but he did not really have the knowledge base. I think Hubbard missed the idea of will or volition. SO members took massive amounts of money away from me which would have been better invested by myself. Their volition was tainted by Hubbard’s wrong views. Whence the overt? Who really was the doer?
    When I first started in scientology I remember reading Hubbard’s axioms. I also had finished a paper on axioms in science. I knew Hubbard was using a Middle Ages technique, but I found him interesting. Did not find his contradictions until years later.

  195. Thanks for the understanding. I do not mind getting my mind bent a little and having to fix it myself. What else have I got to do with my time? Sell State Farm Insurance?

    Anyway, how is this for another strange thing? People who gravitate to Scientology are into past lives and this is holding the key to everything. And Marty did write a great a post on this already. The past.

    But there is this idea in the Scientology community. that if you do have this interest, you are, “brain dead” or “thetan dead”.

    Well, when you go into a store you need something or you would not be in a store. You get the thing you want and then you are thinking future again.

    Does it ever occur to Scientologists that a lot of people out here are not hung up in that? They could care less about past lives and are just living in “the moment”? If they do have out ruds on their life. let them be.

    And then, the ruds. If you convince someone the planet needs to be Scientologists, what kind of present time problem are you laying on someone? Who can REALLY have their ruds in until everyone is clear? Until they are clear? They have a present time problem, the case. A lifetime of a present time problem if they are not clear, and everyone else too. How can you really think you put someone’s ruds in? You GET people to accept the present time problem, and that is how you recruit. With people that are out ruds to start with. You really put a person’s ruds out, long term.

  196. “Anyway, how is this for another strange thing? People who gravitate to Scientology are into past lives and this is holding the key to everything. And Marty did write a great a post on this already. The past.”

    The idea of the spiritual search seems to have been tarnished over the last twenty years. I think Scientology played a large role in the decline. This whole thing about everyone needs to be clear put a drag on the energy. Yea, I think leaving people alone is a far better solution that making them feel guilty. I’ve concluded that Scientolgy’s biggest problem has always been hyperbole. These great claims are not supported in fact. What Scientology lacks is this open discussion. I remember a brilliant advertising executive who got into Buddhism. This guy had Madison avenue on his own terms travelling to India and doing creative work for $25,000 a hit when he needed the money.
    He told the senior monk he could not find any truth in Buddhism. He tore into the teachings with zest and gusto. The monks got together and performed a blessing ceremony for him. It did not change his mind but he started smiling and was very happy when he left. This blessing is indeed joy but in Scientology you would be considered a low life.

  197. christianscientology

    Since we have had the purpose of man as per Buddhism, I felt it was only right and proper to have the purpose of man as per Christianity followed by the ‘Scientological’ interpretation of the Christian purpose of man.

    The purpose of man! (According to the Bible). The Bible makes it abundantly clear that God created man and that He created him for His glory. Therefore the ultimate purpose of man according to the Bible is simply to glorify God. (A fuller explanation can be found at http://www.godquestions.org )

    Now for the Scientological explanation of the Biblical stated purpose.

    GOD is PURE SPIRIT that is He has no mass, no motion, no wavelength, and no position in space and time. (For full definition see the Tech. Dictionary) He is PURE STATIC that we call in Scientology THETA. GOD (THETA) created man out of His own “SUBSTANCE”. God is infinite SPIRIT (THETA) and man in his essence is FINITE THETA which when located in M.E.S.T. becomes a LIVING SOUL, known in Scientology as A THETAN.

    As a thetan man can choose autonomy from theta and consider himself M.E.S.T. and to that degree becomes aberrated. However his primary purpose is to be re-united with his true SELF which is forever one with God and in doing so he fulfils the two great commandments “Love God with all your heart , soul, mind and strength, and love your neighbour as you love yourself.”

    Love with understanding

  198. Is this Marty Rathbun’s blog or Milestone Two?

  199. I think that we all pretty much agree that The Spiritual Universe, where-in we are ALL ONE, exists. Even attenuating ourselves through and into distinct identities, including into MEST forms, with the consequent apparency and reinforcement of separation and distinction that none-the-less does not, and cannot diminish that fact of connection.

    Most religions contend that God (Universal Mind) not only knows what WILL happen (prescient), but has a proscribed outline of how each person should live their life, with after-life rewards or punishments for the person depending on how well they intuited and abided by that plan. I, though, see no way that even God can know what will happen until it actually does.

    Further, it seems to me that the quest each of us seems to have (albeit faint for some) “to know oneself” is a quest extending from Universal Mind, and that the only true means of gaining such an understanding is through observation and experiencing how we respond to the infinite variety of experiences that Life can present.

    Therefor, the primary imperative, our life purpose, if you will, is: TO EXPERIENCE. Considerations of goodness/badness, rightness/wrongness, etc’ have nothing to do with it; only to go through different and challenging events so that we may glean more about who we are and what we are “made of” as an element of THE ONE, of which we are all a part.

  200. Hello there, Jim.

    The first thought, if you can call it that, that I can recall was to be and to continue being. You could call it an intention, a postulate, an idea, or even a whim.

    For this intention to be realized a few things had to happen. Best listed in reverse. There had to be occurrence. In order for anything to occur there had to be some action. To have any action or motion there had to be some idea of distance, space. To have any space, there had to be some thought that there could be something other than self. I had to pretend that something that was me, invented by me, mocked up by me, was something other than me. I had to deny that something that was me, was not completely me. The first division.

    Of course there had to be the one way arrow of time. The continual addition of events that could never be completely forgotten or erased. The whole purpose of occurrence in the first place. It is what makes “continue to be” real.

    You can’t go into the future because it doesn’t exist, it hasn’t been created yet. Once you go to it, it is the present in the never undone string of events.

    I have a more detailed write up of how things went according to my recollection if you care to read it. A few pages, might be entertaining.
    Let me know, Mark

  201. I concur completely, Mark, and certainly more eloquent than I was. Sure I’d be interested in seeing what else you had written. How would I access it?- Jim

  202. christianscientology

    Hi Jim

    Thank you for your reply. I certainly would not take issue with anything you wrote, and I found your conclusion “the primary imperative, our life purpose – TO EXPERIENCE” most interesting because it occurs to me that “an engram” could be defined as a moment in time when we chose NOT TO EXPERIENCE and temporarily left the MEST universe, if not completely, certainly that particular spot. So to go back and experience that which we chose not to experience has definitely a liberating effect.

    I forget which discipline it is that states something to the effect “there are only two things that can mess with your head, yours or another’s lies” which fits in very well with the biblical quote “Know the truth, and the truth will set you free”.

    I agree with you that if we could see every experience truly as an event nothing could phase us. It fits well with my family motto “WILLING EFFECT IS TOTAL CAUSE”.


  203. christianscientology

    Hi Mark

    You wrote “The first thought, if you can call it that, that I can recall was to be”. My question would be “Who or what has that ‘first thought’?

    Bishop Zizioulas states that PERSONHOOD PRECEDES BEING” see Ontology Of Personhood http://www.leithart.com/archives/003435.php

    Here is the basic outness in Scientology, you are THETA BEING A THETAN or in layman’s terms a person being a personality. Some personalities can appear “larger than life” but what we are really seeing is INFINITE LIFE expressing in a finite form.

    Love with understanding

  204. Pip,

    Good post.


  205. Eileen, the charitable org that runs the Milestone Two website is under sanction from the Australian Gov for being over 6 months late with their Charity Filing. Maybe they left that sinking ship and hopped over here?

  206. A personal struggle I have gone through, (bought to mind by your story above) is this pay to play tax with enlightenment. I always have to find my way to some of my rightness, or insight, by travelling through some of my wrongness, darkness and blindness. I did it in auditing. I did in it life. Needing to see when I was wrong, in order to put in some rightness.

    It doesn’t come easy. It is easier to focus on other’s “wrongness” as a form of therapy. “Fix them and the world will smooth out for me.” That is true in minor moments and very long term planning. And, it involves “others” and their “moments”. One does need to maintain order in the environment and fix things that are broken, even people. But I see that as a responsibility, not as a way to enlightenment. I have come to know that before I can see any beneficial personal change, I have to take a walk to the mirror.

  207. Oh please, “facepalm”

  208. From my favorite Youtube site: Marty and Monique you check that one out. Music is a part of happiness:

  209. “One does need to maintain order in the environment and fix things that are broken, even people.”

    I find this to be true. Often I am able to get in six hours or more of meditation in a single day. This only happens only when the technological environment of today is calm. Most of the time the environment manages to molest. In fact, the Pali word for form (Rupa) is rooted in molestation.
    It took me over 15 years to deal with the impact of computers, video and audio etc. I found that the lure has been reinforced to the point of a granite wall which violates laws of extension. We are bombarded with messages.
    There is no logical or rational reason to break through.
    When I did a lot of auditing in Scientology, I felt like Hubbard thought that I was an onion and that he was peeling it. Later on I learned that his route was false. It was not the way. Hubbard proved to me was that a religion constructed out of ideas could never work. Hence the auditing stirred things up, and was helpful to that extent, but in the end went in a circle.

  210. Mark,

    I got a chuckle from reading your post on the coyote and pigs story.

    I grew up on a farm and can relate.

    Those were the good ole days.

    Of which kind there is unlikely to be ever again.

    That kind of upbringing tended to bring up the finest beings this world has ever seen.

    At least from the perspective and stretch of imagination we can view from.


  211. Cage Rattler

    I would like to read it for sure. Sounds intreging.

  212. Cage Rattler.
    Drop me a note.

  213. Tom,

    Re; Reading the Sociopath next door:

    You said:

    It’s one of the most eye-opening books I’ve ever read. It sure cleared up a lot of BS from the PTS/SP course.

    I have not read the book The sociopath next door, but:

    If you would of read “How to study a science” in New Slant on life”,

    Hubbard said: Translated to plain language and summarized:

    He said for scngists to stop parroting him and do your own research.

    The formula for understanding is to read all other data of comparable magnitude in the known universe.

    Reading “The Sociopath next door” is a datum of comparable magnitude to the PTS/SP course.

    This is the interesting dicotomic thing about scn,

    An opposite datum of all most everything can be found in scn.

    Or Hubbard left a datum such as the above to get him off the hook.

    You can’t say he did not tell you the way out of the trap or how to identify and correct false and limiting data.

    Those who would not think for themselves were in his trap.

    Those who could and did think for themselves and did their homework (did their own research) could walk out of the trap.

    Only one in many thousands read and understood “How to study a science” and applied the data and walked out of the trap.

    In wonder how many people actually read all the text books, and evaluated every datum?

    My guess, based on evidence is: very few.

    Much data in the texts contradicts what is on the bridge.

    There is contradictory data within the texts too.

    He said: A datum is only as good as it has been evaluated.

    It is these kind of succinct, very important and key statements, that if the scngist was conscious, would of cogged on them and made them think and take appropriate action.


  214. Hi there Pip, good to hear from you.
    Your insight is quite crisp, sharp. You said: “So to go back and experience that which we chose not to experience has definitely a liberating effect.” Funny how that worked out. You get stuck with what you don’t want. Go figure.
    If you think those times which you don’t want can trap you, and they can, then look at what your susceptibility to these traps is based on.

    The really good times.

    Those times that you worked and practiced and spent time and effort and succeeded. The big accomplishments. These, you never want to let go of. All later traps are based on these.

  215. Don’t worry, Dio, those good ole days will be back. Going without food for days at a time, hunting in the cold even though you have the flu. Spending 99% of your effort just keeping a body alive because that is all you got.

    But it’s not all bad. Going to a fall festival was much more exciting back then than going to a theme park or the beach is now. The friendships made were often lifelong and solid. Community purposes were more aligned so people worked together. The necessity of helping each other turned into a joy in helping each other.

  216. I suppose anything is possible.

    Never say never.

    The fact is that the majority of farmers are old men.

    When they are gone, those arts and skills and the stability that goes with it, will be be lost, and the more able people will have to start from scratch.

    A few converging unrelated factors could create a “perfect storm” for the perfect destruction of civilization.

    The whole future of the race depends upon it’s attitude towards children; and a race which specializes in women for “menial purposes”, or which believes that the contest of the sexes in the spheres of business and politics (and war) is a more worthier endeavour than the creation of tomorrow’s generation, is a race which is dying.

    We have, in the woman who is an ambitious rival of the man in his own activities, a woman who is neglecting the most important mission she has.

    A society which looks down upon this mission and in which women are taught anything but the management of family, the care of men and the creation of the next generation, is a society on it’s way out.

    The historian can peg the point where a society begins it’s sharpest decline at the instant when women begin to take part, on an equal footing with men, in political and business affairs; since this means men are incompetent and the women are no longer women.

    This is not a misogynistic rant, it is a statement of bold and basic fact using common sense, reason and logic. It is said for the love of women and children and all of civilization.

    Any woman who does anything other than look after the family and the home front is guilty of sexual misconduct.

    When proper homemaking and the proper care (proper upbringing) of children (and proper care of husbands) become unimportant to a society, that society has forfeited it’s future. Even beyond the parenting, bearing and rearing of children, a human being does not seem to be complete without a relationship without the opposite sex.

    This relationship is the vessel wherein is nurtured the life force of both individuals, whereby they create the future of the race in body and thought. If man is to rise to greater heights, then women must rise with him, or even before him. But she must rise as a woman and not as today she is being misled into rising -as a man.

    The woman who takes part in men’s activities eventually loses her true feminimity and begins think like a man. She takes on a false feminimity. A masculine energy.

    When women are led to or encouraged to think like a man, who will think like a woman to keep the balance?

    For society and civilization to function properly and exist, women must think and act like women and men must think and act like men.

    Man woman equality is equal to a dead battery.

    It is the hideous and foolish  joke of ignorant people to teach young girls to do boys things.

    It is the hideous joke of frustrated, ill informed, foolish men (and women too) to make make women into the travesty they have become.

    On one hand, some women say that men can be difficult and troublesome creatures, sometimes, but valuable. At the same time, on the other hand, remember that we all come from women. If you have a problem with a man, because mothers have the most influence over the development of their children, you have you have to check with his mother for the cause of the problem.

    The creative care and handling of men is an artful and beautiful task. Those who would cheat or deprive women of their rightful place by making them into men should at least realize that by this action they are not only destroying the women but the children and men as well.

    This is too great a price to pay for being modern or for somebody’s petty anger or spite or joke against the female sex.

    The arts and skills of woman, the creation and inspiration of which she is capable of and which- here and there in isolated places in our culture– she still manages to effect in spite of the ruin and decay of man’s world which spreads around her, must be brought newly and fully into life. These arts and skills and creation and inspiration are her beauty, just as she is the beauty of mankind.

    The stable and sane home, the stable and sane family, the nuclear family, the extended family of which grandparents are most important, (for their knowledge and experience) are the building blocks of society and civilization.

    When these fall apart or no longer exist, civilized society cannot and will not exist and will in due time self destruct. It has begun with ISIS, other similar groups and homegrown terrorists all over the world, already. It is only going to get worst.

    Feminism and women’s liberation are the worst crimes that can be committed against society.

    Feminism and women’s liberation are crimes against humanity.

    Feminism and women’s liberation are criminal negligence that will cause the destruction of civilization.

    A woman’s job is to look after the home and family. That is a full time job. That is called the home front.

    Society is only as sane, stable and safe as our families and homes.

    Society only deteriorates when women fail or neglect their duties on the home front.

    We are all only as good as we have been bred and brought up.

    If you have a problem with the product, you have to check with the factory for the cause of the problem.

    Failure on the homefront is a worse crime than a soldier who abandons his post on the battle front or deserts the army.

    Because wars occur only because women failed on the home front, failed to bring up their sons and daughters right in godly ways.

    The war front only occurs as a result of too many women failing on the home front or abandoning the home front.

    Feminism and women’s liberation are crimes that must receive the harshest of penalties.

    More severe than the soldier who deserts the army.

    More severe than the child molester, more severe than the serial murderer.

    Child molesters and serial murderers, schitzophrenics, neurotics, psychotics, perverts, deviants, social misfits, lunatics, juvenile delinquents, thieves and criminals of every kind, are only products of failed parenting.

    When punishing criminals, you are in fact shooting at the wrong target. The mothers should be punished, because they caused the problem, they are responsible for the problem.

    Feminism and women’s liberation is the only thing that will cause the total destruction of civilization, known as the apocalypse.

    When you hear a woman cry about wife abuse, you have to look under her pillow for the baseball bat she used to beat her husband.

    Most if not all of a woman’s problems are due to what she did to her husband that she should not have done and what she did not do for her husband that she should of done.

    We fail in life to the degree we fail to seek out and learn God’s ways (natural law) for successful living.

    We succeed in life to the degree we seek out God’s ways (natural law) for successful living.

    Like the law of gravity, the closer we obey the law of gravity, the less likely we are to get hurt.

    The value of a datum is only determined by how many problems it solves and how well it solves and for how long it solves them.

    The value of a datum is not determined by opinions, beliefs, political correctness or by who win’s an argument.


  217. That explains it.

  218. Thank you for this, Dio.

    I have not seen this unedited text for a very long time. Some of it remains in Science of Survival but I could not find the full text. Perhaps it is a little too controversial for the current scene. The PC police, politically correct, may have wiped it out. Where did you find this full version?

    I have been many men and many women on this good Earth. Many of my foibles occurred when I refused to wear the right hat or obsessively wore the wrong hat, or pants or dress. This text deals with wearing the right hat for the situation you are in. My best successes came when I was willing and able to wear whatever hat was required and appropriate for the moment. But there is a lot to be said for, generally, a man being a man and a woman being a woman. Assigning women the task of raising our future society is, for the most part, a workable system. Restricting them to that job only is less than ideal.

  219. LAUGHTER!!!!!!!!!!!

  220. Well George, since we are ghetting (pun intended) down the real nitty gritty,I have to ask you this. Have you found people that got involved with Scientology are real touchy about their “sanity”? Like, their mind gets bent a little to the left and they become a squeak toy? I like it when my mind gets bent here and there, and I have to adjust. Shape shift. What do you think about these people that get bent a little a bawl forever about their “sacred mind” being fondled a little by someone else?

  221. George, has anyone ever considered the idea, that there is no such thing as “crazy”? There is just different viewpoints? And everyone is really sane? Because I think that is a real possibility.

  222. I mean because once you get it, that there is no crazy, you are O.K. and so is everyone else.

  223. And in this context, I can see the liability of psychiatry. Nobody is “crazy”. I can also see the liability of Scientology. With the sanity vs insanity postulates. But I have admit, without Scientology, I could never have arrived at this absolute F’in truth.

  224. There is no Crazy, It was all bullshit.

  225. Hi Oracle,
    Yes, I have often met Scientologists and even former members who are “touchy” about their sanity and Scientology. I believe that Scientology sits atop such a weak foundation that it trembles at the truth when it comes near. I remember people who would just go wild when Scientology principles were challenged. I have a very unique theory about L. Ron Hubbard which no one will accept. You know OT VIII with the anit-Christ is really an off the wall bulletin. Well, I proposed, and I still believe, that Hubbard had reached the final edge of his logic. He had to get extreme and claim that he would return as the anti-Christ. I interepret it to mean this:
    Hubbard – “Here I am telling you the biggest non-truth. But let’s see how many of you accept it. Maybe 1 in 10 of the OT VIII’s. So if you accept that I am the ant-Christ, you are fooled because I am just saying it subjectively. Now, in reality, I have given you the biggest lie possible. Hubbard thinks “I am painting you into a corner and I have actually painted myself into a corner.””
    GAME OVER!. You should realize that you should get out of Scientology.
    In other words, Hubbard could not accept his own contradictions. In the end, he trashed the entire subject, but unconsciously. No one will accept that. What about crazy? No he was following his logic Hubbard never, ever believed in the anti-Christ. TOO MUCH WORK.

  226. Oracle, my wife put on a video about the history of psychotherapy a few nights ago. It was very interesting. They have a little book they call the bible which lists out all of the mental ills. Like in 1950 about 5% had some mental illness. In 2015 you have about 80% with a classifiable illness. We suspected the video was produced by Scientology but we could not prove it. Nevertheless, one can see the rise of big Pharma. I think that both Scientology and Big Pharma are to blame. You can blame big Pharma for making profit out of chemicals with a patent. (By the way I heard it reported that Reagan started it by allowing universities to ally with big Pharma.) And Scientology is to blame because they attack big Pharma for the wrong reason. They attack big Pharma to make a case for their intended takeover of earth. This is where technology gets really messed up. My apple computer hard drive failed. I go to the Apple store. I spent 40 years programming in unix which is the apple source. They give me a total load of crap about the drive and how to fix it. So technology actually goes backwards.
    This is the real truth, IMHO. This is also why Scientology goes backwards. Their level of awareness actually sinks.

  227. christianscientology

    Hi GMW
    I believe your post is spot on. The biggest lie is that the common denominator of LIFE is survival. Ron was looking at life and observing that all life forms have the purpose to SURVIVE but what he failed to take into consideration was THAT WHICH IS LOOKING AT LIFE.

    Jesus Christ said “I have come that you might have ETERNAL LIFE”. To fixate on survival will ultimately bar a life form from eternal life, and that which points away from eternal life is ANTI-CHRIST.

    The one concepts that appears to drive a Scientologist insane is the thought of SURRENDER for surrender has the apparency of succumb to the animal / ego mind.

    Yes! I agree with you. When I had my “conversion experience” I realised SURVIVAL is the “biggest non-truth”; the truth is we are Life itself, that which is capable of experiencing LIVING. LIVING IS SURVIVAL, LIFE IS ETERNAL.

    Thanks again for a very thought provoking post.

    Love with ARC

  228. Cat Daddy,
    Ego is as ego does.

  229. George,

    I will pretty much agree with your unique theory.

    It is not hard for me to agree with that at all.

    It is very believable for an honest thinker, who spent enough time in the subject and honestly evaluating it.

    I have another much more unbelievable theory that dove-tails with your theory.

    The whole Hubbard and scn story is much more complex, convoluted, contradictory, crazy, esoteric and cryptic, than the large majority can even imagine or could accept.


  230. MarkNR,

    You> Thank you for this, Dio.

    Me> You are most welcome.

    You> I have not seen this unedited text for a very long time. Some of it remains in Science of Survival but I could not find the full text. Perhaps it is a little too controversial for the current scene.

    Me> It is so (too controversial), for the liberated woman and the feminist.

    Actually the word “controversial” is the wrong word. It is the politically correct word. But it is not the truth, not the right word.

    The word “controversial” is used to avoid saying the truth, the right word.

    (The word “controversial” is ambiguous and difficult for the average mind to grasp, sort out (untangle), or evaluate and define the truth from.

    It perpetuates the lie and the argument, while the criminals perpetuate their crimes.)

    The truth is that the right word is: “the truth” , which makes them boil over.

    “The argumentative defense of any proposition is inversely proportional to the truth contained, and directly proportional to the amount of lies and crimes contained.”

    You> The PC police, politically correct, may have wiped it out.

    Me. They cannot handle truth.
    Political correctness is a form of lying.
    They can only handle lies.

    Like DM has to use more lies and more force to keep his lies and criminal organization in effect, liberated women and the feminists have to use force to keep their lies and crimes in effect.

    Most or many people foolishly operate on the data, that the truth is determined by opinions, beliefs and by who wins an argument.

    You> Where did you find this full version?

    Me> A little birdie told me. 🙂

    It could be the same birdie, that Hubbard said that dictated Dianetics to him, and likely all the good data that is in scn. But it is mixed in with a lot of bad data. The truth is also the best bait in the universe.

    You> I have been many men and many women on this good Earth. Many of my foibles occurred when I refused to wear the right hat or obsessively wore the wrong hat, or pants or dress. This text deals with wearing the right hat for the situation you are in.

    Me> Yes. Only the truth will solve our problems and solve them properly.
    That is what is meant by: Only the truth will set you free.

    Only the truth will set you free from the bondage of your problems.

    You> My best successes came when I was willing and able to wear whatever hat was required and appropriate for the moment. But there is a lot to be said for, generally, a man being a man and a woman being a woman. Assigning women the task of raising our future society is, for the most part, a workable system. Restricting them to that job only is less than ideal.

    Me> When dealing with women, you have to keep a couple of things in mind:

    1. According to the biblical, historical, (most likely allegorical) record (to make a point or expose a truth); lying, manipulation, disobedience, deceit, narcissism, poor judgement, irresponsibility, shortsightedness was invented by a woman named Eve.

    2. According to the same source, Eve got her advice from a snake.

    And as a wise man said, women who get their advice from snakes, should be fed to those snakes.

    And since then, look at the mess we are in.

    Armageddon and the Apocalypse is happening right before our eyes, although in relatively slow motion, but the momentum is there and speeding up.

    This is what Hubbard meant in (or is in alignment with) his article in the Science of Survival (or ties into it) by the words, “a society on it’s way out”.

    The true woman, the Godly woman, the woman who seeks God for advice and wears the right hat, is the factory of society.

    This is summed up in Hubbard’s last paragraph:

    If civilization is to survive (I add) :

    The arts and skills of woman, the creation and inspiration of which she is capable of and which- here and there in isolated places in our culture– she still manages to effect in spite of the ruin and decay of man’s world which spreads around her, must be brought newly and fully into life. These arts and skills and creation and inspiration are her beauty, just as she is the beauty of mankind.

    I have one family next door, and one across the street, (model families) who have women like is referred to in Hubbard’s paragraph above. They are my stable datums on that subject. It keeps my heart warm and gives me a glimmer of hope.

    At first the truth may sting, but then it will solve your problems.

    The truth is the truth. The truth is not affected by man’s (or woman’s) opinions, beliefs or arguments.



  231. Thank You!! A huge thank you. I had to take so much backlash when I introduced the idea about a year ago. Not only did I get rejected, I had to
    take a few hits. This is great.
    Actually, I see your point Christianscientology. Anti-Christ is the
    block to eternal life as far as I can see in this context.
    I felt it in my guts when I first read Hubbard with his anti-Christ.
    I felt he was giving up and he was allowing you on OT VIII to make a
    choice. Hubbard spilled his guts with the stories about the Bible.
    He was saying “This is what I make of it. What do you think?”
    Well on the Freewinds I thought right away. Mr. Hubbard you have it wrong.
    You have Christ mixed up with the Buddha and you have yourself mixed up with God. I actually gained respect for the man. He took a ton of money.
    He shot the bull for all those years. At the end, he left a small crack of light.
    He knew that only 1 in a million would buy the Xenu stuff and the “search into other dimensions for the evil ones.” When I was about 7, I read the sci fi stories that were the origins of all this. Imagine going through all of the torture of Scientology to get to this. Hubbard just made the lie bigger and bigger until
    it burst like a balloon.
    Thank You!

  232. Thanks Dio, I look forward to hearing it.

  233. Hi George. About the OT8, not sure Hubbard was the author. It has come to my attention that DM decided he could paste together things and write Hubbard’s name on it:

    SPD 15.7.86R – 2 –

    LRH Tech will continue to be issued in red on white HCO Bulletins.
    LRH Policy will continue to be issued in green on white HCO policy
    Letters. Both these issue types will continue to bear LRH’s signature,
    as they will be assembled directly from his notes and dictation.
    HCOBs and HCO PLs that are newly compiled will carry a notation
    under LRH’s name of “Compilation assisted by LRH Technical Research and
    Compilations”. (Reference: HCOB 24 Jan 1977, TECH CORRECTION ROUND-UP)
    In instances where LRH notes or instructions require that an
    existing HCOB or HCO PL be revised or updated, the HCOB or HCO PL will
    carry a notation under LRH’s name of “Revision assisted by LRH Technical
    Research and Compilations”. .
    There are also some unpublished HCOBs and HCO PLs, fully written in
    their final form by LRH, which were intended for a later release date.
    When they are released, the original date will be given along with the
    date of release. Such issues will be in the usual HCOB or HCO PL format
    and will not have any “assisted by” notation.
    The longstanding rule that “If it isn’t in writing from LRH, it’s
    not true” is every bit, as valid as it ever was.
    Right now there is more than enough tech and policy existing in
    LRH’s HCO PLs, HCOBs, tapes and books to clear this planet and take any
    person to states higher than he or she ever dreamed were possible.
    And with the’ rest of LRH’s research writings being issued we
    will have all of the tech, to take Man to full OT, and all of the
    administrative policy, to make the job that much easier.
    Cmdr. Ray Mithoff
    Authorized by

    “Both these issue types will continue to bear LRH’s signature,as they will be assembled directly from his notes and dictation.”

    That explains the Pain and Sex bulletin.

    It is basically saying they can paste things together and put Hubbard’s signature on it. LAUGHTER!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Not that it matters. I stopped listening when the purif was released and we were told we were being suppressed by fat cells. I weighed so little at the time, it was just such a wrong item for me. If I had any fat it had to be in my lips. Which were pretty puffy. I did find other interesting things to run after that. But I knew I had to go backwards with the tech. It was over.

    I have only considered myself in the wrong place at the wrong time, when I have been parked behind bars or in a hospital. Other than that, it’s all been good.

  234. christianscientology

    Thanks for your reply GMW. It got me all fired up. When all is said and done there are only two viewpoints THE CHRIST and THE ANTI-CHRIST, put in another way THE WORD or WORDS.

    When I first studied Scientology I was told I needed word clearing. It turned out I did not know the difference between ‘A’ and ‘THE’ that is, the difference between the indefinite article and the definite article. That was probably my biggest win in Scientology.

    Now if THE WORD is THE CHRIST (and it is) then WORDS (a word) is the anti-christ. There is an account in the Bible Genesis 11:1-9 where man erects a tower with the intention of reaching God (SCIENTOLOGY) but this is not possible in mans’ fallen state (fixated on SURVIVAL). God’s solution to the problem was to confuse mans’ language (the misunderstood); understanding words became mans’ idol and becomes full blown in Scientology.

    However understanding words can only increase MAN’S wisdom and what we need is GOD’S wisdom and God’s wisdom is THE WORD OF GOD. However we cannot know the word of God unless God reveals it to us, and this He has done in The Lord Jesus Christ, for Jesus is THE WORD MADE FLESH.

    The Bible tells us “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” and that is what we need. God’s wisdom. In fact God is so Scientology that He knew that “For optimum learning we need a balance of Mass and Significance” that is why He sent Jesus, because “Jesus is the mass of God’s significance”.

    Thanks again for what you wrote, for without it I would not have been able to write this reply.

    Love with understanding

  235. christianscientology

    Thanks for that Dio “the argumentative defence of any proposition is inversely proportional to the truth contained and directly proportional to the amount of lies and crimes contained”.

    It reminds me of the saying “Me thinks you do protest too much” (Shakespeare) or “The overt does speak loud in accusation.” (Scientological truism).

    Mrs Eddy the founder of Christian Science uses a similar logic when she says “If the proposition is incorrect the conclusion will be incorrect”.

    I have been following your posts with interest.


  236. About purpose, I think this is a fundamental issue everyone could own for themselves. Other people can only take you so far, and then you have to walk a mile on your own. This is everywhere in life, not just in Scientology. I think I always assumed that people knew that. You have to go everywhere and look everywhere. It is a puzzle. It is spread out all over the universe. There are keys over here and keys over there. I never imagined in my life that I could cross paths with one person that would deliver me into heaven. Or where ever. It seems a lot of people are very unhappy customers because they became sheep in one flock, did what they were told, and expected to wind up as a supernatural human in a position to dominate others, or glow things right. Like people that have been on welfare for six generations.

    You look at a lot of people that left the Church, and I mention Marty in particular, that read and searched and just kept it moving. And then there are others that just ran out of gas the minute they exited the front doors of one simple store along the byway of understanding and enlightenment.

    And there are others that left and never changed anything! They just mocked up the same unworkable policy!! And tried to run it others!!! For profit!

    The thing is, is viewpoint. It is like being in a dispute, this world of opposing views. where everyone has it right part of the time. And noone has is right all of the time. Because you do not have the keys from the other people. This is the magic here, the way I see it.

    If you dropped a few thousand people on this planet, in four by four groups, thousands of miles apart, they would over hundreds of years, form cultures and truths and policies. Those would differ. But maybe all be workable. After all, they all survived.

    Then if you put them all together suddenly in communication, there would be conflict.

    You would really need to travel through all of them, speak and listen well, to find out what they know and how they survived.

    If it was truly your purpose, to know how to know. And then you could put a truth together. You could put the puzzle together.

    It is not possible for one person to carry the total truths of this world on his shoulders. That would be asking too much of any human. Yet, some people go there. This is a math failure. How can one person be right and everyone else wrong? If that was even possible, we would not have a civilization here.

    Marty was right when he said to integrate. If you can’t do that, you do not connect the dots. If you can’t integrate what you found in Scientology, what good was it? They do not even export it anymore. They have this idea they have to drag you IN, not take it out and plant it everywhere to ADD benefit to an existing scene. They are a wholly segregated community.

    I feel I found some keys there. They open other doors. I found that when I explored many other avenues of knowledge. I do not blame my ignorance on others who told me not to “look”. They will not be in my eternity.

    You have to own that up front right now to move forward.

    And moving forward, has to be in place as a purpose before you go there.

    I have been invited many times to invalidate my progress, my key ring, my travels, my reasons, my identities, my purpose, my treasures, my understandings. Some people want to throw their life away like that. Not me.

    I have come to the understanding that I have rarely been in the wrong place at the wrong time. It was all for good reason. I have not been stupid. I have not been brainwashed. I was not wrong.

    And I ask myself why I can stand on everything and others chip away at their own paths?

    It is just faith. I still have faith. I have always had faith.In myself, in others, in this planet, in love, in miracles, in the supernatural, in the Gods, in the angels, in nature, in magic,in it all.

    I do not think you can have any purpose long standing without faith. And one really sometimes has to get down to zero to perceive that power. I see some people only experienced faith in L. Ron Hubbard, and lost that faith. But I had faith in everyone and everything, so I did not have a loss. If you do not believe in something, it does not exist.

    About the Scientology, and I have been smacked around, so what, I put a lot of faith in Marty. I just knew it was right. And he made it possible to spread open whatever truths were there to be viewed in Scientology, all over this planet. He made it safe for the knowledge to go everywhere. Against the backdrop of the Church burying it in vaults. Shutting people out. If the information does survive, it will be because of Marty.

    It may be one of 20000000000000000000 keys somewhere up the road.

    If it is your purpose to know how to know, go find the other keys. Integrate.

    You are in a puzzle and there are more keys. I would never in a billion years lay my eternity and well being in the lap of one man. That isn’t faith, it is F’kn laziness. Hope, maybe. That is F’n pathetic slothfulness. You got a key or two, keep going. Have a little faith that you can beat this game.

  237. “About the OT8, not sure Hubbard was the author. It has come to my attention that DM decided he could paste together things and write Hubbard’s name on it: ”
    This might be so. I can tell you that I met DM on the Frrewinds about 30 days after OT VIII. He was troubled and quiet. My two OT VIII friends and I openly discussed the document. It was considered by LRH based based on the style and the way it was directly presented. Also Jesse Prince makes it quite clear that DM balked at the document. It was claimed to be original and by LRH even by DM. Can’t imagine anyone in the tech division could have written it. These people specialized. Almost impossible that DM wrote it. NO WAY. I think DM is basically uneducated without any possibility of an original thought. Also, the Playboy interview by Nibbs makes it clear that Hubbard often used the anti-Christ terms even in the 1950’s. Hey, being the anti-Christ is no big deal. I did an entire 40 page paper on it in college. This symbolism has been widely used for 1500 years.

  238. christianscientology,
    “There is an account in the Bible Genesis 11:1-9 where man erects a tower with the intention of reaching God”

    Is that the one where Nimrod tries to shoot God with an arrow?

    I have seen this type of behavior escpecially in the last 20 years. I find that your points about scientology make sense. In fact, I was doing some research last night into the cases of “spurious Buddhas” over the last 25 centuries. They all follow a pattern very similar to Hubbard. Hubbard claimed to be Metteyya, the future Buddha. He also claimed to have been present at Buddha’s enlightenment. It seems that these “spurious Buddhas” are quite common.
    There have been thousands. Hubbard developed in the west with very little knowledge of eastern religion. It shows quite cleary in his confusion about simple Buddhist terms. “Spurious Buddhas” originate from conceit tainted by mild ill-will. This fits Hubbard. In fact, these “spurious Buddhas” reside in a special plane in which they develop “false or wrong views.” These wrong views then develop into anti-Christ characteristics. Thus simply by reading the Pali Canon of 2,600 years ago, it is possible to predict that Hubbard would eventually claim to be the anti-Christ! Hubbard as a being fit into an old pattern.
    This pattern also predicts a “samsaric” element based on fantasy. Hubbard had wild space opera fantasy. The endless research can also be predicted. It seems in the end that Hubbard was a simple, predictable being trying to be God which can also be predicted from his place in the realm of delusion. As you say, the anti-Christ symbology would then be his untruth about eternal life.

  239. George I agree Miscavige probably could not have organized OT8 Materials. The Ship project was launched by Pat Broker. Miscavige inherited it. The OT8 materials could have been put together by Broker or anyone working in tech. My point is, since they announced they could paste together bits and pieces and put Hubbard’s name on it, anything released after his death I would altogether discount. I am curious to know when the people on OTVll got told they had to report every six months for interrogations.

  240. The Church of Scientology has a little Bible of mental ills too.

    Theetie Wheeties.
    Pts type A. B, C …………etc etc.
    Non compliance.
    Degrades beings.
    Alter isings.
    Anyone below 2.0 on the tone scale.
    No case gainers.
    Dub inners.
    Type threes.
    Psych case.
    Est case.
    Drug case.
    First dynamic case.
    Manifesting overts and with holds case.
    ARCxy hand holdy P.C..
    Out ethics.
    X S.O. and out ethics cats.
    PTS to the middle class.
    Red tagged P.C..
    Overt product maker.
    Resistive case.
    Occluded case.
    Antagonistic case.

    Just to name a few off the top of my head.

  241. And mainly what the Church of Scientology deals with as a science of mental health, when addressing people that are unhealthy mentally, or mentally troubled, are blocks to communication, trauma from the past. Ser facs, evil purposes and possession. I think 5% of the program address’ trauma from the past, (Dianetics), and 95% of the program address’ the person’s evil inclinations or evil possession by evil or degraded spirits.

    In the Jehovah Witness movement, the possession of evil spirits is addressed, but they believe a person can rise above them by bringing themselves up to better standards and habits of living. The evil spirits are called Drujas.


    Mormons also believe people can be possessed of evil spirits. Can even be “false angels”. They rely on human touch to know these things of others, for themselves, and are each trusted individually to evaluate for themselves about the touch and what they felt. It is also considered their own private knowledge they carry responsibility for. Not a public or church matter.

    I guess in the Catholic Church, these are called “demons” and can be exorcised.

  242. I think, the only evil thing the culture that bubbled around Scientology disseminated, and this seems to me, to be at the bottom of every major departure (of members) and what creates distance between these people and the rest of the world, is this notion that once you have “become”, in Scientology, you have seen the world. And when you push this on children, you have committed a horrible crime.

  243. The very strange thing is, is the people that think they have “seen the world” because when they looked through Hubbard’s eyes, they saw something. They get tired of the view for whatever reason, shift on over to someone else’s point of view. Attack the point of view they had from Hubbard, as not worth a damn, ride on someone else’s point of view. Usually an opposing view. And people carry other people when they get out on the sidewalk and say, “Hey! Look at it through my eyes!”

    Because there are so many people that are only willing to view through some one else’s eyes. And that is how cults get established. Through the very afraid. And no responsibility.

    I see so many people that have drifted into the opposing view, never having the ability to walk a middle path. Never being able to form a view of their own.

    The thing about Marty and this blog, is that he never ever asked people to lay down and only see through his view. Other people demand that. There is one person out here with a blog that instantly deletes any challenge from me. O.K. maybe two.

    Coming back to Scientology, I do not think individuation is a crime.

    And I think that is a wrong item and a wrong indication. And it really goes against the case gain of people when they become more self determined.

    If Hubbard had not individuated, Scientology would not be here.

    Also the fact that you are led to believe that you can pay 50.00 and become spiritually supreme from here on out is just ridiculous. We have all known Scientologists that are ignorant, short sighted, F’n stupid alright? Just read the posts of some people that have left or are in, that are wallowing in hate and NO arc and sadism. WTF!!!! That is enough to cause anyone to lose faith!

    They think they have a holy and brilliant and sane identity because they walked those halls. When they are stupid, irresponsible, reactive, no responsibility, can’t think with any of it once they go and they are out of the enforce band.

    They fall on the streets like vagrants and can not hold onto anything at all unless it is a current scene that involves a lot of applause. They invalidate every moment of a life they lived before, and wonder why they have amnesia. Or probably do not even do that.

    I watched it all. Have / waste on a grand scale.

    I am most disgusted with the people who left the Church and then became a copy of it. Hypocrisy in it’s highest form. No qual no correction, just copies of purposes and goals and policy. No effort for reform or correction.

    For the love of God how low can you go?

  244. Then I see Israel, the holy land. This is the only place on Earth right now that Scientology is rooted and safe pointed. Those people knew their God given rights, and were able to stand by them. But they got that freedom from Marty and him taking the heat. And once they got the golden ball they kept on walking and did not look back.

    That is the game. To take the ball and keep it moving. There is some intrinsic injustice in this forwarding of information and freedom. That is not fair.

    To tolerate injustice, you have to be wholly unimportant. And this is the way to dissemination. Jesus Christ never penned a book. Never kept a record.The bible exists because of simple people that wanted only to forward the information.

  245. Oracle,
    An impressive list.
    I was read a Bulletin in which it was stated that Buddhists were in the Black Hole GPM. Sounds very merry and void.

  246. “I guess in the Catholic Church, these are called “demons” and can be exorcised.”

    I learned about exorcism in the 6th grade in Catholic School. It was mainly targeted at Satan.

  247. Both are BIG Beings creating a lot of space 🙂

  248. T.O.

    One problem with most people is that when they get into one extreme, and decide to quit that extreme for what ever reason, they go to the other extreme. They have no ability to evaluate data and glean bad data from good data and find a middle ground.

    Another problem is that people low on the theta scale, can only understand low theta data. Everything else is blocked out or condemned. Hubbard did say some where (in my words) : Hey, don’t parrot me, don’t accept everything that I say as gospel, take a look for yourself. Ask yourself: is that you see when you look there? If it is, then that is possibly what is there. If what you see is not what I said is there, then see what for your self what you see.

    He said (something to the effect) all I want you to do, is take a look and think for yourself.

    It can be said that Hubbard spoke out of both sides if his mouth.


  249. Pingback: Purpose | twinklebee321's Blog

  250. Wow George, that is interesting (considering motive) , I would be very curious to know what circumstance/occassion you were in that someone read you that bulletin?

  251. You can’t think of any other reason for unhappiness, than the pursuit of happiness?

  252. Purpose, I am not religious but my upbringing always brings me back to this:

  253. “Purpose
    Posted on July 21, 2015 by Mark C. Rathbun | 272 Comments

    Purpose of life might be reducible to the following simplicity:

    We serve that which and those whom we care about in the best manner we see fit.

    Life becomes most complicated by the arrogant who attempt to dictate to others whom, that which, and how they must serve.”

    I fucking love you

  254. My main man, Marthy Rathbun

    You are my brother

    You take care of your family !

  255. God forbid anyone should snatch a little Glory out of all of this defeat.


    Excerpt from the speech “Citizenship In A Republic”, delivered at the Sorbonne, in Paris, France on 23 April, 1910

    “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”

    Almanac of Theodore Roosevelt

  257. Marty please post another post.

  258. Marty me and my family have this movie down as one of the things that binds us.

  259. Lovely, really lovely. What a beautiful simple truth. Thanks

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