The Danger of a Single Story

Reference: You May Be Right

The ASC (anti scientology community) leadership hunkered into their bunker to re-strategize after reading the above-referenced post. Apparently, my allusion to the inherent liability of adopting a single narrative in lock-step fashion was taken as a threat to their anti-scientology story-telling cottage industry.  For those who did not so viscerally react to the idea presented, the talk at the following link provides for a deeper understanding of what I intended by focusing attention on the narratives we have come to accept, build upon and cling to:

The Danger of a Single Story

Incidentally, labelling people as crazy and delusional is an age-old ‘solution’ for suppressing voices that might upset a single-story narrative that is profitable to some.


828 responses to “The Danger of a Single Story

  1. This could have been a point beautifully mafe had it not begin with the sarcastic condescension in it’s introduction in my opinion.

  2. Mark C. Rathbun

    Thanks Gayle. Obviously, the “point” I intend to make has not arrived with you.

  3. Because people experienced Scientology in so many different ways, and because they left for so many different reasons, and because they all evolve afterward so differently, it is a disservice to Ex-Scientologists to have too few voices and too few viewpoints on the Post-Scientology Internet.

    For these reasons, I like to challenge dominant viewpoints and to break up their monopolies by questioning them after Scientology.

    Some of the most de-humanizing and self-denigrating viewpoints are being offered right now for an Ex-Scientologist to accept. There is almost an anti-Ex-Scientologist story-line which dominates Tony Ortega’s blog and ESMB, and it is surprising to me that so many Ex-Scientologists are swallowing it.

    The reporting by Tony Ortega on you and your wife, the bannings and sometimes years-long smears and character assassinations of various Ex-Scientologists on the Ex-Scientologist Message Board, and the uninspected assumption and labeling of all Ex-Scientologists as “crazy” are all part of this absurd dehumanization that presently underlies the dominant Ex-Scientologist story right now.

    ESMB has finally taken down the smear thread of you and your wife, and moved it to their “members only” section. Other smear threads of other Exes have been taken down, as well. And Tony Ortega has cleaned up his act, pretty much, since his monthly donations were threatened and he lost so many Bunkerites because of his arrogant cruelty.

    I doubt if other viewpoints on Scientology and life after it will ever be acceptable on those two places but at least these people have made moves recently to tone down their vitriol and dead-agenting of other Ex-Scientologists.

    Once you graduate from Scientology, and Ex-Scientology, you develop more unique stories than these people seem to be able to imagine.

    It’s always good to try to provide a place where unique and minority stories can be protected and grow and allowed to spread. Individuals, as they become more individual after Scientology, have more to relate to. And more paths to take as they move on down the road.

    I have always known the danger of a single story.

    For some reason, I forgot that danger when I was a Scientologist.

    Never again.


  4. chuckbeatty77

    Competing narratives of history are human.

    I like facts, the moments remembered, I like the most, as imperfectly described as they are remembered.

    I’m for history facts of people’s memories, and all of us lived our moments and have our motives, and it all competes when the words come out of our mouths.

    Some writers will be paid to tell history.

    I’ve hoped that smarter outsiders would come along like Janet Reitman and Lawrence Wright and Hugh Urban and the ongoing coverage that Tony Ortega allows.

    He allows history to be told pretty quickly.

    I would love to hear more publicly told stories by participants in the higher ranks, and that’s always what I’ve gleaned from anyone’s writings and videos and news stories and TV documentaries and so forth.

    I like the history facts from the mouths and writings of the ex members who’ve been there and done all they did and saw.

    I remember an old Columbia Journalism School panel discussion years ago, and it warned journalists about dealing with Scientologists’ stories in an oblique way a putdown on “us” ex-members and our veracity and lack of frankly ability to even understand our experiences.

    So, my conclusion, was tell facts.

    Tell the time place form and event, and let the smarter more literate outsider media people, and let all outsiders just hear the details as what we lived and let them sort out what they think about it all.

    The narrative thing, that’s gonna happen by its own.

    Facts and events told which are new or more details that give a changing narrative to it all, that happens when MORE raw events and history are told and added to the overall pile of ongoing history.

    The slant of the chat sites and the Underground Bunker readership’s tastes, that’s just who’s watching.

    To me, the facts of the stories, the facts of the ex members sharing what they lived, is all important raw material for later any future “experts” who bother to read it all and put it all together in bigger pictures and contexts.

    So, me, I am happy to read details mostly in people’s comments today, and people like Bruce Ploetz’s comments really interest me the most.

    I’m glad you still comment Marty, and this forum does attract comments and history from people who lived near Miscavige and give the fuller context of history around what’s happened.

    Forums on Scientology develop different tastes from the different people.

    Outsiders quickly come to the conclusion that Scientology is due for the dump heap.

    Insider ex members provide the details of why that is or is not happening.

    I appreciate forums that get out history and the commenting ex members’ comments I like the best, since I fell into that category and am interested in all those details of what other people remember.

  5. OK. A few years ago something like this came to my attention, in my own space. I realized that if I had an upset and went out of communication with someone I would often create a synthetic personality or label for them, and it would stick in time since it was the last impression I had of them. So, my friend of many years became the guy who sent me a disconnection letter.
    I remember him for the bad more than the good because the bad was the final note.
    I realized that when you stop looking and stop communicating you don’t really know about the person. All you know is the fixed idea you have in your mind.

    I think this happens when you don’t know about something or someone and you accept negative information about them. You never really thought about “Mexicans” being a problem, but after accepting information that they are a problem, you dislike “them” even though there aren’t many in your small town and you don’t know any. Etc.

    I guess any time we get lazy and accept a label or stereotype and stop observing we put ourselves in danger of being ignorant. This act alone probably causes a significant about of fighting and war that is easily avoidable.

  6. chuckbeatty77

    PS: Your “Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior” book is a must read book. I would have to re-study it for a couple of months, and I’d love to interview you on your years of work when you were the Legal Guy over all the legal cases of the 1980s. The details in all your years of work there, when you retire someday, maybe I’ll have a list of questions I’ll send you, and if when you’re 75 or older, you mull over any of the details.

    Have a long life Marty, and a lot more history I hope to hear from you.

    I wouldn’t worry about the narrative battles.

    You lived such important history, your memories are a future treasure for “experts” still to come.

    Scientology as a subject will always be around, even after we are all dead.

    I hope the principle figures in Scientology’s history, like yourself, live long lives and tell lots more raw material.

  7. chuckbeatty77

    “Mules” was Lawrence Wright’s frank comment of what Wright calls his selected persons who carried the narrative of his brilliant book, “Going Clear….”

    The world of Scientology as a big sub-subject in history, there are tens of thousands of us fellow “mules” and I hope lots more “mules” tell their detailed histories.

  8. I saw this talk once before and just watched it again.

    The single story narrative strikes me as a form of “Domination by nullification.” It is an attempt to “cut the target down to size” by making him two-dimensional and thus fictional. Something that can be destroyed without consequence.

    The danger of the single story is indeed a double-edged sword.

  9. I’ll preface by saying I’m a never-in who’s been interested in $cientology since the late 70’s when I noticed Chick and Stanley Clarke thanking LRH on their back album covers and then Jeff Hawkin’s ‘Volcano commercials.’ Tried to read ‘Dianetics’ as young teenager but couldn’t get past page 30 – not because I wasn’t a fan of or able to digest the esoteric. It just didn’t speak to me. I also had an interest in Jonestown and cults in general, not with a desire to participate, but just because I thought they were interesting subjects. I pop in at this blog, Mike Rinder’s, and the Bunker. Mostly to see what’s going on in the world of $cientology, but I occasionally comment over at the Bunker – though I wouldn’t consider myself to be a regular.

    I just don’t get what’s going on. The last few months in the anti-Scientology community have been weird – no doubt to the delight of Miscavige. I get the idea of protecting one’s family, but the fact is, you’re a public figure in this weird little subset of an even weirder, slightly larger (or smaller?) subset of society known as ‘things having to do with $cientology.’ The dropping of the lawsuit was news within this community. Doing so without explanation as to why the attorneys were suddenly dismissed is going to bring about discussion. Where information is not given and there’s the appearance that it’s being withheld (“in due time”), people are going to speculate to fill the void. I’m not saying one way or another what you should or shouldn’t have done. Not my business or place to say. Just pointing out that in an information vacuum, speculation will soon rush in to fill the void. Basic human nature.

    What’s confusing is the fixation on your critics; 98% of whom seem to be mildly critical of your decision re: the lawsuit and to not clarify your intentions (again, your choice). 98% of whom seem to end their “why did he do that” criticism with “I wish Marty and his family the best.” I don’t see the vitriol. I don’t see a conspiracy. I don’t take seriously anyone’s post that a P.I. ought to be hired to see if you’re living as someone who just got a fat cash settlement. I’m not denying the 2% are out there. For all I know they have a personal beef with you. We’ve never met and though I disagree with you at times, I have nothing personally against you. I’ve read some of your books. I’d love to read the yet to be written book where you go into details about your time in $cientology (not asking for dirt on T.C.) and some of the more nefarious things that went on at the command of Miscavige. It just looks to an objective outsider that out of thousands of comments over at the Bunker, the focus here by you and a few others seems to be on the very small percentage that seem to be cherry picked. It looks as though the comment(s) of a very small percentage of posters is being used to define the entire group. If one digs long and deep enough, of course one will find something to justify their position.

    It’s confusing that your blog seems to have a new purpose after remaining relatively dormant for awhile. I’ve popped in over the years. Daily 5 or 6 years ago, occasionally since the direction of your blog changed to a more general, philosophical based blog. Now you seem to be on a thing with the Bunker, ESMB, etc.. To be honest, ESMB is a bit too large and broad for me to spend too much time there, but I check in to see at least the headline at the Bunker and if it’s something of interest I’ll give it a read.

    Quite honestly, I don’t see much in Ortega’s posts, or in the comments, about you much. Sure, months ago when the newsworthy events of your mysteriously (to the community at large) dropping your family’s lawsuit against the cherch and dismissing your legal team. To be expected. Otherwise, no significant mention at all. I think the only mention since the lawsuit story is your appearance in Theroux’s movie. It appears to me when you do something newsworthy it makes the news, when your actions aren’t newsworthy Ortega posts and people comment about other topics. It looks at times as if you want this to continue. Instead of looking at the situation as your newsworthy act being reported on and then speculated on because of the lack of information (“in due time”), it seems as if you’ve manufactured a feud where none really exists. At least on a large scale, because as I said, I know you have a number of detractors, some of whom may know you personally and have reason to be angry based on what you did while in the cherch. Realistically, has anything that’s been said of you worse than what has happened throughout the history of $cientology because of their policies? I took the so-called suggestions that you and/or your wife is crazy for dismissing your attorneys figuratively, not literally, because on the surface, without any explanation given (not that you have an obligation to give any), it does seem kind of crazy to dismiss one’s attorneys in the middle of a lawsuit and then not to give any reason whatsoever (they were incompetent, we settled the case out of court, etc.).

    Anyway, that’s my take on all of this. I know it’s your life and so I won’t criticize you for focusing so intently on all of this, but unlike some of the people who post, post, post, post, and then post again – often responding to their own just made posts – I’m not really all that interested in making this a daily hobby that takes up hours of my day. I’ll close by saying I know you’ve been through a lot in your life, and that you are probably still going through these things, and may for quite some time. Knowing what I do of your history and the history of other ex’s who’ve been involved in varying degrees, getting involved in $cientology takes it’s toll. Lucky is the person who was involved and has been able to walk away unscathed, able to put it behind them without ever a thought or backwards glance. Even though it could be considered karma based on your actions while in the cherch, I’m sorry to see that you yourself have been the victim of the cherch’s antics. Some may relish in seeing you go through pain you’ve put them or others through, but I don’t. I can’t say I wouldn’t feel differently had I been subject to foul deeds, but since I haven’t I have nothing but best wishes for you and your family.

    Not that I expect you to care or give any value to my opinion, but there it is. That’s all I have to say on the subject. Like a lot of people over at the Bunker, I’m not all that interested. People have moved on instead of focusing intently and dragging this on and on and on. Again, best wishes and hope you find peace and tranquility in your life.

  10. Thanks for the link. I watched the video and found it very interesting. Ted Talks are great, I can almost feel my mind opening up when I watch them. I learn every day how much I don’t know and how much I assume. I recommend anyone go to Ted Talks and watch a video or two, on any subject, you can search for your interests or watch something random, to increase your understanding of pretty much everything. By the way, I just finished reading your book “Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior”, really good. I now understand the reasons you got involved in the beginning, altruistic.

  11. Mark C. Rathbun

    Well put Scott.

  12. Mark C. Rathbun

    Thanks. Since you have not commented on the post at hand, I’ll comment on your post:
    a) You noted at the outset that my calling out Ortega and co for libel and worse is “no doubt to the delight of Miscavige.” I have never spoken nor written to delight nor dampen any audience.
    b) You noted: “The dropping of the lawsuit was news within this community. Doing so without explanation as to why the attorneys were suddenly dismissed is going to bring about discussion.” That is a blatant lie. Monique Rathbun explained her actions very specifically (and in the most neutral, respectful, forgiving manner imaginable) and filed them in the Supreme Court and District Court of Texas. I never objected to ‘discussion’. That is not what Tony Ortega opened or encouraged. If you think that, you really ought to watch the video provided with this post and review more closely some of my recent posts.
    c) “What’s confusing is the fixation on your critics”. Perhaps you haven’t read what I’ve wrote e.g.: “As far as Ortega is concerned I am only preparing the ground to correct the public record he polluted for four months about my family. He is merely one of thousands of click bait floggers plying his trade as floggers do. I have no intention of changing that – that is fundamentally who he is.” Characterizing that as ‘fixation’ is indication of the mind infection I believe his campaigning creates, see e.g.: Has Your Mind Become Infected?
    d) “I don’t see a conspiracy”. Interesting you should imply that I do when I don’t. Interesting too that those in this instance who are asked simple questions about things they have in fact done to me and my wife make the same accusation, and them submerge – never to answer the questions.
    e) “It’s confusing that your blog seems to have a new purpose after remaining relatively dormant for awhile”. Interesting you should suggest that when the purpose has always remained as stated from the outset.
    f) “I know you have a number of detractors, some of whom may know you personally and have reason to be angry based on what you did while in the cherch.” I feel sorry for them. If you read my blog and books you would know that from the outset I made good with anyone who might legitimately and realistically have such anger. I would suggest this is one of the liabilities of promoting victimhood culture.
    g) “Sure, months ago when the newsworthy events of your mysteriously (to the community at large) dropping your family’s lawsuit against the cherch and dismissing your legal team. To be expected.” Again, nice repetition of talking points – but, see ‘b’ above, again.
    h) “it seems as if you’ve manufactured a feud where none really exists” – plus its intro and extro. Again, good talking point repetition. Again, reference to my blog: “As a final side note, I noticed a lot of cyber-cultists characterizing my recent posts as some sort of ‘war’ on Tony Ortega and that I wish to engage him in some public debate. That is another indication of their cult-like, insular belief that the real universe revolves around their play world. As far as Ortega is concerned I am only preparing the ground to correct the public record he polluted for four months about my family. He is merely one of thousands of click bait floggers plying his trade as floggers do. I have no intention of changing that – that is fundamentally who he is.”
    i) “Realistically, has anything that’s been said of you worse than what has happened throughout the history of $cientology because of their policies?” Said? No, as I noted in my last post it is identical to what scientology said. Done? To me? Who cares – I don’t. To others? Stayed tuned.
    j) “I took the so-called suggestions that you and/or your wife is crazy for dismissing your attorneys figuratively, not literally, because on the surface, without any explanation given (not that you have an obligation to give any), it does seem kind of crazy to dismiss one’s attorneys in the middle of a lawsuit and then not to give any reason whatsoever (they were incompetent, we settled the case out of court, etc.).” Gosh, again really effective repetition of talking points. Again, see ‘b’ above.
    k) “I’ll close by saying I know you’ve been through a lot in your life, and that you are probably still going through these things, and may for quite some time. Knowing what I do of your history and the history of other ex’s who’ve been involved in varying degrees, getting involved in $cientology takes it’s toll.” Thank you, Dr. Ruth.
    l) “Not that I expect you to care or give any value to my opinion, but there it is.” If I knew anything about who you are in fact, I might. Nonetheless, it does serve a purpose in this final teaching moment. So, thank you.

  13. Well said Alanzo. The self denigration , I am glad you lifted this issue to the table. It is a very strange hobby. The “group” think, that they are “damaged goods” , and the encouragement to keep people in that department, and refer to them in this manner, is deliberate cruelty. And when one of them gets tossed in the trash, or smacked around, it is seemingly justified in the social arena, as people come to accept themselves as damaged goods or mindless, for having been curious or having lived a life. = groups of sorry assed mfkers.

  14. The latest example is Tony Ortega instructing his citizens to watch the newest Chris Shelton video. So Chris can explain to them that they are all damaged goods and sorry assed mfkr’s. From the critical thinker at large. Laughter!

  15. I watched the video and, wow! What an amazing young woman. She has great insight and perspective on life. Very thought provoking. She made a big impression on me. Thanks!

  16. You can’t make this stuff up.

  17. MODERATOR REJECT: Desperate times for immoral shysters apparently call for desperate measures.

  18. “Incidentally, labelling people as crazy and delusional is an age-old ‘solution’ for suppressing voices that might upset a single-story narrative that is profitable to some.”

    Mea Culpa

  19. lagunascott

    Thanks Marty. It is a wise and humbling practice to stop and reflect on the potential consequences of speaking or acting.

    I know I don’t always do that, but at least I sometimes pay attention to the to the signs that I am uninformed or acting when I shouldn’t. Would that more of us withheld ourselves so.

  20. Another piece of interest in this community, is that Tony Ortega rode out the statue of limitations on pandering charges.

  21. What a wonderful lecture.
    This morning I had a single story about a certain person going on in my mind, whom I was going to meet afterwards. I have other stories about her also, somewhere back in my mind. But this morning they had somehow disappeared. And I felt very negative about her.
    When we met, she was so different from the story I had early in the morning. that I was suprised to see that she was the same person.
    We had a lovely afternoon. And this lecture completed the lesson I learned today.

  22. Tony Ortega a.k.a. Snoop Doggy Dog.

  23. He even removed his “howdycon” warning label from his blog:

    “Anyone who meets up with someone they know from the Internet is an Idiot.”

  24. It might have been cutting across the Village Voice sex trade.

  25. At the likely risk of being criticized by certain camps for saying so, what a great rejoinder.

    I picked up that his comment was contrived and strained while trying to sound sincere and light – and making certain talking points. You, on the other hand, articulately dissected it. Great job, Marty.

  26. Cat Daddy, I have to like you for that comment. 🙂

  27. The video reminded me of one of my favorite quotes,
    “Assumptions are the termites of relationships.” Henry Winkler

  28. Being stuck in a single story is summed up, imo, in this perception by Sri Yukteswar:

    “We are hypnotized by our surroundings and cannot see anything beyond the horizon of our experience.”

    Even an anger against those with limited views is a limited view of them. And a singular emotion that hides the true nature of the person being perceived.

    I find the more still on the inside I become, the more I am able to register the true nature of the mind that is before me. When my mind is full of judgement or resentment or anger or outrage for the behavior of others; the true cause of that persons need to be closed in, behind a single view of reality will not be known. There will only be a judgement. Not the truth of that person’s predicament.

    It is a fascinating experience to be perfectly still and calm on the inside and perceive directly, thoughts and feelings of others, that they themselves do not know they have.

    When I am able to see another’s mind that clearly, because mine is gone for the moment, I intuit the nature of their predicament.

    Through this understanding, I then become a silent friend. A well wisher and a supporter of that persons wellbeing.

    Then, instead of judging or condemning them for their state, I have great love and understanding. When I can have this unspoken silent understanding, I can then help this person through it; unnoticed.

    “Our enemy is our greatest teacher”
    Lord Buddha

  29. ^^^^^ Greatness put into words.

  30. marie guerin

    Thank you Brian.

  31. “Knowing what I do of your history and the history of other ex’s who’ve been involved in varying degrees, getting involved in $cientology takes it’s toll.”

    More of the, “you are all damaged goods” attitudes. I think Tony’s blog has taken a toll on you. Look what you think you “know”. Look at your attitudes. What has taken a toll on you in this theater?

  32. You don’t think it takes a toll on people to be told day, after day, after day, they are damaged goods? That they were stupid? Brainwashed? Mindless? Unintelligent? That they should feel shame for some part of their existence or some identity? And every day day after day have their losses, doubts, shame and insecurities rehabbed?

  33. Do I have a right to post here? I mean, sometimes it feels like I was just out for a walk, noticed a house with people going in, walked up the path and opened the front door, came inside, saw people having a conversation and just sat down on the couch and started talking. Even though I wasn’t acquainted with anyone. So I’m not sure if I’m an unwanted guest. I realize the whole internet is pretty much like this, anyone posts anywhere, unless they have to be approved, but it kind of feels like I’m intruding as the conversation gets more specific. I have never been a member of the CofS so my knowledge base is very limited, although I have no shortage of opinions, lol. I’ve posted a few times here and think I may from time to time have something worthwhile to say, but I don’t know if that’s just my general conceit and inflated sense of self, or anyone else would feel that way too. So is it ok to stick around and put my 2 cents in? Or do you prefer that people posting here have more knowledge of the CofS and relevant information, etc..? I’d just like to know the feeling on this although I know it’s entirely possible the answer may not be what I would most like to hear. I’ll continue reading in any event, I love interesting conversations. Thanks! 🙂

  34. Mark C. Rathbun

    You’ve commented here numerous times.

  35. Well, not too many times. Maybe a half dozen or so. But I’m still not sure if I should. It’s not really like the welcome mat was rolled out, it’s kind of like I invited myself in. If I find myself asking and unsure, that’s probably a good indication that I shouldn’t. I’ve been thinking I spend too much time online anyway. In fact, this post and my prior one were not really needed, as they added less than zero to the discussion. So, I’m pretty sure that I answered my own question. Best wishes…

  36. Always good to wait a bit and get as much data
    as possible before you jump into any fray. The
    TED talk above is wonderful.

    Interestingly enough Marty has taken DM’s view-
    point and dilemmas more than once (read his books).

    What I truly know is that Marty has helped hundreds
    (maybe thousands) of church members getting out
    from the grip the cult has had on them, to be free and
    live again.

    Also, the time I advanced something good about Scientology
    I was voted down by some bunkeroos. There are so many
    viewpoints (6 billion?).

    I saw a movie, “Lucy”, with ScarletJohansen where she was
    given a drug that made her able to utilise her full potential
    brainpower with the consequence of turning a lot of our
    basic physical sciences upside down. It is good to learn
    as much as possible before shooting one’s mouth off
    (look at the current political scene in US).

    Thank you Marty for this forum, and all you do and have

  37. The ones trashing Mike and I are still up –!!-part-2/page18

    Guess their “change” is like anything else they do. Merely an apparency designed to deflect too much seeing going on.


  38. Malice masked as empathy. Ugh! I need a shower!

  39. Totally agree. Even worse, in my opinion, is trying to make people think that the best that they can ascribe to in life is having babies and houses and semi-friends. Not that babies and houses aren’t great – it’s more that so many “voices” are trying to push them *away* from being the spiritual beings that they are and always will be, and into the very molds they didn’t want to be in, in the first place!

    Scientology is like a giant almost, a parallel to something that probably does actually exist, or has existed, and I think that so much push on the end result being “we don’t like that” any more, has to have been part of the point in the first place. Like trying to turn you against something real should it ever come along. I’m probably not making much sense because it’s late and I’m in a hurry, but maybe you’ll get what I mean anyway.



  40. I did it to my parents; “Whadya mean I didn’t stay over at my friends house last night??? You’re crazy!” 😀

    Mea Culpa

  41. I don’t care for Jon Atack, Hubbard nor an ‘ex cult member’s definition of ‘Crazy’. As one of those who has been formally publicly labelled as a’psychotic’, ‘PTSD’ and ‘mentally-ill drug addict by Ortega’s crew, I feel qualified to comment on behalf of myself and others (mostly my close personal friends) thus targeted:
    If I am guilty as accused for having the audacity to suffer from any of the above ailments, they were pre-existing conditions prior to my sojourn through Scientology and have NOTHING to do with any perceived ‘trauma’ I ‘suffered’ through being a member of the cult of Scientology (in other words – I am who I am – I was born this way – and I’m pretty OK with it).
    I am not a bitter defrocked ‘ex Scientologist’ any more than I am a ‘bitter defrocked apostate’ and nor are my friends.
    I am not angry or jealous nor ambitious nor working for OSA. What I am is sad. I have lost close friends and people I love deeply for no good reason aside from the personal agenda of a hand full of greedy people and the genuinely mentally ill OSA ‘trolls’ and ‘agents’ who make up the remainder of this sorry theatre of pointless devastation.
    Thank you Marty. For the protection you have provided for those who needed to speak and were censored elsewhere.I look forward to the conclusion of this clusterfuck (NOT of our making)
    Trolls – the fake sweetness is making me ill. Please could you tone it down a bit or get real and tell us how you really feel? Y’all sound like you’re drunk on koolaide or something.
    Mosey – Hugs to your family – soon it will be over and we can all go off and find better games to play ❤
    Everyone here in support of what Marty is doing – thank you for being a friend in this moment regardless of any history.

  42. Yesterday I spent almost the entire day at a “final talk” before becoming an OFFICIAL “meditation instructor – level very, very, basic” —

    AND IT WAS HORRIBLE. Not because PER SE the information wasn’t good but because – like Sam – I cannot STAND sugary sweet people “I’m a BUDDHIST” (or yogi or or or or) namaste people. And I admit — I did lash out. Tsk tsk.

    BUT most people — not me — are just able to float above all the BS and be good little buddhists/or Christians/or/scientologists/blog followers or or or

    That has never been who I am EXCEPT for the few years (20 but in the GRAND SCHEME of my life, not much) where I just sucked it up and was a “good little girl” — yes sir

    Marty has been without a doubt absolutely key in my own personal evolution.
    When I start to zig — he rights the ship with a zag.

    Watching the comments and courage of Alonzo for example is such a joy.
    Confirms my DEEP DEEP belief that indeed people can change (not that I knew Alonzo before cause I didn’t follow ESMB but he says he changed) …

    The only problem is that to get to the other shore – you DO usually need a boat and someone to steer it — but when you get there – you can let that boat go. AND I’ve learned — what Mark has said on this blog — that you can give someone a hand INTO the boat cause they were drowning and — OMFG — they will jump BACK into the water as soon as they can.

    Things will always evolve and shift and grow But the CORE remains the Dao
    or whatever it might be for each of us that informs our world. (or as Sam wisely said — she is who she is and she’s good with that) … Me too!!


  43. Perry White

    Marty, great patience and control to dissect and DA that contrived and falsely sympathetic and understanding post with all its window dressing to shield the punches it throws. It went on and on and on. They must take a big win seeing it in print. Rereading it themselves, over and over, marveling at the brilliance of its construction and point making. Do they really think readers (especially you) would not spot the game here. Another “never-in” taking god knows how much time out of their lives to follow, analyze and comment on this topic. Makes no sense to me at all. I suspect there is a lie in there regarding the status of the author. But as you closed with, it served its purpose. Have a great day, Marty.

  44. Mark C. Rathbun

    A disinterested passerby no less.

  45. Hey Windhorse, I know what you mean. My favorite trait in people is authenticity. All to often on the spiritual path, especially in the beginning, people are simply shifting egos. “Ok, now I’m supposed to be a loving, soft spoken person who smiles all the time.”

    I’ve heard people change how they talk. They start sounding like their teacher or someone they think is “spiritual.”

    For some novices, especially in the beginning, their is a shifting identity. An assumption of what the person “thinks” is spiritual.

    To me, someone who is “spiritual” is someone who is their authentic self. Someone who works on and cops to their shit.

    Not someone walking around with folded hands grinning a made up identity, wearing Indian clothes, beads or robes like a “spiritual” fashion show.

    I knew this monk in my tradition who was the main minister at Lake Shrine, a beautiful oasis lake temple in the Malibu area at the end of Sunset Blvd. He used to sneak behind the bushes and smoke cigars. Although he was highly developed spiritually, his authenticity never fit the “spiritual” mold.

    He was fiery, a comedian and ate steak once a week in a monastic swami tradition of vegitarians. I loved this guy. He did not fit the “spiritual” mold. Yet he was spiritual. He was himself first and foremost. He was authentic. And his sermons were life changing.

    It’s called Self Realization. Not guru realization. Or spiritual materialism realization.

    The shifting of identities is a trait of the novice. The Great Ones fit into no mold. Their personalities cannot be made to fit the limiting expectations of novices. On the contrary, the ones with true self perception can be quite challenging to be around at times as they see through the affectations of spiritual ego imaginings. That’s the true teacher.

    They are first and foremost their authentic selves.

  46. Path of Buddha

    “Scientology is like a giant almost, a parallel to something that probably does actually exist, or has existed,”

    Very well written. One of my friends, who worked for Hubbard on the Apollo, told me his stories of personal contact with the Commodore. After my friend left Scientology, he said that he figured out that he was motivated by “wanting to believe” that Hubbard had the answers. I like the way you described it as a “giant almost”. It is like a “hope”, “expectation” or “desire”. For example, I recently read mockery of OT VIII completions on Tony Ortega’s blog. In fact, my friend told me that Hubbard did not act in any way like an OT, as he described it. He was mostly mundane and, at times, even failed to pick up on circumstances in his immediate area on the Apollo. It does then come down to the expectation.
    These new OT VIII’s are getting to the point of subjective, internal certainty about power. People like Tony don’t see any hint of OT power as described by Hubbard. My friend did not see any either despite long personal contact. These new OT VIII’s, IMHO, really do clean themselves out as I did on the level. This is confused in a subjective state and even exteriorization is overstated. What OT VIII’s do to their minds, I can only state from my point of view. While I was peeling back the “onion”, I was in realty placing circular thought patterns conforming to Hubbard;s teaching in intricate reality blocking patterns. These new OT VIII’s may have damaged themselves in the same way. I do not know. This is where your brilliant comment deserves credit.
    You say: “parallel to something that probably does actually exist”.
    Hibbard ended up at that point in his original OT VIII message. He intended to find his salvation in other dimensions. Like he was in fact “a giant almost”. Should an ex-scientologist be haunted for following Pascal’s famous gamble? If God does exist, you have an infinite loss if you reject faith. Or, perhaps, God’s query to Pascal would apply to critics of Scientology. “If thou knowest me, why doest thou seekest me?’
    Thanks for your post.

  47. Yes, Virginia.

    The continued trashing of Ex-Scientologists on the Ex-Scientologist Message Board is amazing.

    And so few Ex-Scientologists seem to notice it. Nor do they protest, or spot the clear dead-agent lines in them that come straight from OSA.

    I’m not saying these people are OSA. I’m saying why spend so much time in adHom character assassination of other people who went through Scientology and got out just like you did?

    The Ex-Scientologists who have been banned and trashed on ESMB reads like a “Who’s Who” of Scientology criticism. The list is L-O-N-G. There’s no other place where an Ex-Scientologist can be brow-beaten and cyber-bullied like ESMB.

    The Church wishes that it had such a torture chamber for Ex-Scientologists who expose Scientology and speak out against it.


  48. One of the best observations of cults comes from Stephen Hassan, who said that often, the followers of a cult leader are more sincere, more intelligent, and more spiritually wise than the cult leader himself.

    I think this was especially true of L Ron Hubbard and the Scientologists around him who helped him develop Scientology. There are many reports where Hubbard became jealous and fearful of Scientologists and disposed of each of them them loudly and with no sorrow.

    When you wrote: ” I think that so much push on the end result being “we don’t like that” any more, has to have been part of the point in the first place. Like trying to turn you against something real should it ever come along.” I understand that to mean that Ex-Scientologists can get so turned off from anything spiritual after Scientology that they become very bitter indeed to their own earlier selves who got into Scientology to become more spiritual. It was almost like Hubbard did that on purpose – to take people who were trying to be more spiritual in their lives and destroy that purpose in them.

    It worked for a while on me. I was one very bitter boy for a long time after Scientology. But over the last number of years I see an opportunity of having my own spirituality without anyone exploiting it, an opportunity of rehabilitating “my own universe” without ignoring the reality around me that I live in, and using the reason required to reconcile the two.

    But that takes a lot of happiness and appreciation for being alive, and seeing the good in things and ignoring the bad. And it takes a lot of trust that if you start operating like that again in life again – like you did in Scientology – no one is going to lead you to harm.

    I think I’ve found that, after a LOT of searching through many different forms of Buddhism. I would not recommend my spiritual path for anyone else. It was one that I had to travel alone.

    But Scientology was definitely part of that path, and I am done turning that portion of my life into a big pile of shit. It wasn’t. And no one – no sense of responsibility to the harm that others have experienced in Scientology – is going to make me keep doing it.

    I’m done with that.


  49. Thanks Brian — my ONLY problem with your spiritual friend/guru/whatev is that he used to “sneak” behind the bushes and smoke and have meat etc

    Those who are “really” authentic selves do it openly IMHO … or keep their mouths shut until they can.

    I’m still working on the “keeping my mouth shut” until I can part …

    It’s not easy … finding ones way … a journey of a lifetime as far as I can tell BUT as long as it’s “moving on up a little higher” — it’s a good thing.

    Namaste (just kidding, kinda)

  50. Mark wrote:

    b) You noted: “The dropping of the lawsuit was news within this community. Doing so without explanation as to why the attorneys were suddenly dismissed is going to bring about discussion.” That is a blatant lie. Monique Rathbun explained her actions very specifically (and in the most neutral, respectful, forgiving manner imaginable) and filed them in the Supreme Court and District Court of Texas. I never objected to ‘discussion’. That is not what Tony Ortega opened or encouraged.

    Here’s Monique’s pro se filing to the court on 4/27/2016. If Bunkerites and “Scientology Watchers” can eliminate Tony Ortega’s breathless and hysterical reporting from their minds, and read her statement once again, then perhaps greater understanding can occur.

    But embedded narratives and unexamined assumptions are insidious things, and I don’t expect too many people to spend the energy that is necessary to adopt a new and different view than the one presently giving them their spooges.

    “1. I wish to move to dismiss the complaint in the 207th District Court that the instant Petition for Review proceeding is based upon, rendering the Petition moot.”

    “While performing their retreat strategy from this lawsuit my former lawyers made two things abundantly clear to me: a) my lawsuit is not worth it financially for former counsel or anyone to continue to litigate, and b) my husband and I have effectively achieved the primary purpose that the lawsuit was originally intended to serve by our own independent efforts.”

    “It is a travesty that the statute (Texas Citizens Participation Act) designed to prevent suppression of the rights to speech, association and petition has been used to delay remedy for violations of those very rights in this case for two and one-half years. However, resolving the issues presented in the instant Petition for Review would do nothing to correct the statute’s vulnerability to manipulation that effectively vitiates the Texas Constitution’s Open Courts Policy.”

    Furthermore, the defects in the complaint that Petitioners seized upon to create inordinate delay in this case were included by former counsel over my strong objections. As pled by former counsel the operative complaint serves as fodder for considerable future motion and appellate practice for scientology lawyers, as it has so served to date. I do not have the resources, the time, nor the motivation to litigate in the Supreme Court of Texas against scientology’s army of lawyers in the defense of errors made by attorneys who subordinated my wishes in favor of interests inimical to my own.”

    “Consequently, I believe it would best serve justice, judicial economy and the public interest to voluntarily terminate my lawsuit.”

    Respectfully submitted, Monique Rathbun”

    NOTE: I snipped part 2 of the filing for brevity. You can see the whole thing here:


  51. Well he never really hid it. Can you imagine a fat rolly polly monk sitting behind the bushes with smoke billowing up on a meditation ground. Can you hide the smell of cigars? We all knew he was doing it. He was really showing us a lesson.

    And the meat eating; he got permission from the head of the order.

    My point, and Brother Turyananda’s, was that spirituality cannot fit into a box.

    Regarding being honest and authentic; I choose who is capable of adult dialog before I share who I am with. I am being my authentic self by accurately recognizing other people’s capacity to think outside their box or not.

    If they cannot then I treat them like I’m taking to a little boy dressed up as a fireman. I would never tell the little boy he is not a real fireman. He would probably cry. Some folks are emotionally attached to their world view and belief systems. Even those who claim “evolved impartiality.” They are impartial and all “spiritual” until the uninspected belief is threatened. Then come the self righteous daggers.

    Few have the capacity to be brutally self critical, in a constructive way. They are the only one’s capable of not taking disagreement personally. They are also usually successful in marriage.

    When I find a person like that I feel like I’m a desert dweller dying of thirst and someone gives me a cool drink. I love you out there who can do this. You know who I’m taking about.

    And ole Ron did not have that developed quality of seeing the benefit of reasoned criticism.
    And that quality of hating and demonizing criticism was imprinted on his students. (Sorry, this last paragraph was a reasoned sequence to my thoughts. I did not start out to talk about Ron.

    These things happen from time to time 🙂

  52. And Windhorse…………… Namaste (not kidding ;-))))

  53. They seem to be in the valence of a constant justice mission, maybe CMO. Seems every thread is a witch hunt or investigation, or a query for intel to hang someone. Or a new declare about how evil or criminal someone is. Or an invest.

    The putative nature of the topics is blood thirsty. Everything that caused misery to people involved in Scientology, foments fresh and daily in that group. Like they see themselves as The Justice League with a license to kill. When they are a group of bullies needing someone to put up a foot up their ass.

    Maybe the Church is even a nice place to be, now that they are all parked on ESMB?

  54. I wish I had something equally poignant to add to this thread of discussion. Great posts all.

    Meanwhile…..over at the BunnySkull show a.k.a. ESMB….it’s all psychobabble….all psychobabble…..

    But it’s all Member’s Only!


  55. They will be parked over there in comm eves, invests, public executions, witch hunts, targets, and declares until their last gasping breath.

    The same element that made the C of S turn ugly and unworkable, will gobble them to. The, “need to punish someone” is the path to decay.

    Hubbard’s ethics and “justice” traditions, even swallowed him up alive. His work. His ideas.

    Nothing but cancer.

  56. Being labelled “crazy”, and then making judgments based on a single story….Well, I think this new song from Radiohead sums up what ends up happening….

    Stay in the shadows
    Cheer at the gallows
    This is a round up

    This is a low flying panic attack
    Sing a song on the jukebox that goes

    Burn the witch
    Burn the witch
    We know where you live

    Red crosses on wooden doors
    And if you float you burn
    Loose talk around tables (Message Boards?)
    Abandon all reason
    Avoid all eye contact
    Do not react
    Shoot the messengers

    This is a low flying panic attack
    Sing the song of sixpence that goes

    Burn the witch
    Burn the witch
    We know where you live
    We know where you live

  57. George Layton

    Why only point to the people that you find demeaning? There are so many others that don’t carry that judgment participating in these blogs that are trying to bring the actions of scientology to a wider media coverage.
    Everyone out there has lived life and every one of them has had to learn as they went. Learn from your experience and learn from how others might respond to your experience, which hand is going to be holding the shit?

  58. This whole scene with Ortega, is a public declare daily with some public flogging of someone.

    This whole recent flap stemmed from his urge to punish Marty and Monique.

    The urge to punish, is the basic purpose that flows through time, with the Underground Bunker crew and ESMB.

    It is one thing when it is enforced on you as a living condition. When you come out here and mock it up for a hobby, that is very telling.

  59. And when they find out someone found a nickel or a dime on the street, they flip into fkn I.R.S. agents needing to tax the person any way shape or form they can. Maybe it’s just a protest read on finding out someone might have had a win.Success stories became so re stimulative there, that they were banned.

  60. How creepy can it get? That creepy.

  61. Makes me wonder how many of them are still parked on a governmental allowance, and out here generating ill will and misery, at the tax payers expense. There has got to be some situation behind this. Maybe parked on OSA payroll, and getting training awards or working off a Freeloader debt. Lord knows the only real crime you can commit as a Scientologist, is to keep a dollar in your pocket. And I swear to God, I just went over there to find an example of one of these witch hunts, and they are offering an amnesty to anyone that took a paycheck in the C of S.

    The below poverty level in the U.S. is someone making under 10K a year. And it has been that way for decades.

    These people are offering an amnesty, for people who agreed to work those hours and live below poverty level.

  62. Mark C. Rathbun

    Talk about the extremes meeting. My blog admin page shows me what sites are linking to my posts. The latest is getting numerous hits from ESMB threads – all of which I am banned from viewing. Then they send trolls over to accuse me of suppressing free, open discussion. lol

  63. I believe the current “below poverty” level as considered by the gov’t is below $14,000/year.

  64. They just got even more covert.

    But I do enjoy reading your posts. I like your voice. And I like it that you like people to KNOW.

    The only thing the people on ESMB have managed by having separate conversations and keeping them hidden, was to put others into a “not know”. Run another, “can’t have”. They are parked in enemy conditions, actually, stuck. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know exactly, what product is rolling out of those hills.

  65. Thank you for the correction and update.

  66. Me George. I hold shit. I talk shit. I’m a menace to society. I’m crazy, and offer nothing of value to the conversation. In fact, my presence and my voice , should be removed from this arena. You are right, and I agree with you.

    Can have.

  67. As in, you can have that.

  68. “It’s a Matter of Trust”

    Now that I know that Marty and several others here are Billy Joel fans….let’s transport ourselves to NYC on this hot July day and see what Billy and the Band are up to…..It’s too hot in here….can you guys open the windows?

  69. Mark C. Rathbun

    All that dissonance coming from the bunkers (as noted esmbers have now hunkered down in a bunker by OSA Nouveau order), it really is ignoramus simple. After ‘crazy’ does work it is going to be ‘arrogant’, ‘abrasive’, and ‘paranoid’. Watch. It isn’t about any of that. It is about black vs white, good vs evil, God vs. the devil. Say What?

  70. Probably my fav singer/composer — thanks Lone Star

  71. He’s one of my all time favorites too. My 8th grade year, in the spring, a tornado wiped out 25% percent of my hometown, including my Junior High School. For the rest of the year we had to share the nearest High School and we didn’t have to start until almost noon. Almost everyday I would listen to Billy Joel’s The Stranger and 52nd Street albums in the morning before walking to school, about a half a mile away…..

  72. “In a New York minute
    Everything can change.
    In a New York minute
    Things can get little strange.”

    Let’s drink to N.Y. minutes!

  73. “Maybe the Church is even a nice place to be, now that they are all parked on ESMB?”

    Made me laugh with that one.

  74. “I understand that to mean that Ex-Scientologists can get so turned off from anything spiritual after Scientology that they become very bitter indeed to their own earlier selves who got into Scientology to become more spiritual. It was almost like Hubbard did that on purpose – to take people who were trying to be more spiritual in their lives and destroy that purpose in them.”

    Yes that’s pretty much exactly what I meant – and I think Hubbard did aim to do that.

  75. “And so few Ex-Scientologists seem to notice it. Nor do they protest, or spot the clear dead-agent lines in them that come straight from OSA.”

    I like how you put that.

  76. “Talk about the extremes meeting. My blog admin page shows me what sites are linking to my posts. The latest is getting numerous hits from ESMB threads…”

    Same out our blog Mark, lots coming in from members only ESMB threads I can’t see.


  77. It’s good to see Virginia McClaughry showing up here. For those who don’t know, she and her husband Mike have a website with some very good research on the subject of Scientology and Hubbard. Also general information on governmental intelligence operations and mind control. Whether you come to agree with their conclusions or not, you won’t be able to deny that they’ve done their homework with voluminous documentation. Here is the link:

  78. Now — if this doesn’t just break your heart in two — man or woman, nothing will …

  79. George Layton

    Why is it her playing the victim card not count. How much of what you keep pointing out in others, and then denying that your pointing it out, comes from you? How much of this is manipulation on your part, you do have devoted followers here that follow your lead.

  80. Laughter! It occurred to me today that most of these people posting on ESMB are senior citizens or close to it. Also at the Bunker. So on any given day, you read the comments, mainly 15 to 20 people tops. Usually the same ones. And what you read there is the collective wisdom of at least 1000 years. 1000 years of collective wisdom produces posts,questions and comments like this: (Note, these are copy paste)

    Let’s kick this hornet nest for any lurkers or noobies.

    “Yee-haw, we gots another one, here’s yer 10%” type of shite.

    Debbie Cook made way more than $ 50.

    Please – don’t feel bad if you made a lot of money….it does not matter at this point – you are OUT!

    Hi everyone! Welcome Lurker’s and Fuck you OSA, of course.

    Omg that’s the missing tech Hair follicle static sensitivity awareness!

    Hm, is this the sort of *tech* help that (RIP) Biggy had? Fired brain and scalp burns… hmmmmmm.

    Yea, you’re right, better wear a mask if you’re planning on f’ing with the cherch like that!

    I wore my yellow “Scientology Destroys Families” shirt I got at the Flagdown protest.
    Not a lot of pokestops in the area and few pokemon

    Bang a gong, baby.

    My thoughts exactly. Scientology: The religion of dinosaurs!

    … like an IAS reg on a pending inheritance” HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA – line of the day – no, line of the year!

    The above are combined from both places, just the posts at the top. So here you are looking at more than 2000 years of combined intelligence.

    Hope this helps some, to just “move on” with the, “It’s every man for himself” spirit!

  81. singanddanceall

    A single story,

    dianetics is supposed to produce a clear, and then scientology is supposed to produce a OT.

    What could go wrong? LOL

    hey, everybody ought to sing and dance once they leave scientology.

    The witched wick is dead and not coming back.

  82. Mark C. Rathbun

    Your power of perception is shot. Oh, yeah add ‘manipulative’ and ‘coward’ to the talking points list.

  83. Moderator message to Lying Ted – Sweetie, You provided a phony email address through an anonymous redirect server. I tried to reach out to you, but apparently you don’t exist. In the meantime, lots of j&d and lulz!

  84. George Layton

    Add “talking points” to the talking points list too while your at it.

  85. Just the facts

    Laughable Lone Star. They made a big deal about Flubbard getting a Navy Commission with only 2 years college and that there was only ONE reason in the world that could happen. My uncle had less than one year college and was given a commission as a Navy flyer in WW2. My son had NO college and was sent directly to OCS and given a commission in the Navy.

    NO. the FIRST item I checked showed abysmal research ability.

  86. Just the facts

    ESMB threads are open as far as I have ever seen. I have no logon there and I can read every thread. If there is no logon required, they aren’t locked. Maybe chat room (if they have one) requires a logon…

  87. Mark C. Rathbun

    Internet Trolls Are Narcissists, Psychopaths, and Sadists

  88. Public school systems are supposed to produce high school graduates. What could wrong? LOL

  89. Pregnant women are supposed to produce human beings that will contribute to society. What could wrong ? LOL

  90. The Bible was supposed to produce people that could think with social policy called the ten commandments. What could go wrong? LOL

  91. The Declaration of Independence in 1776, was supposed to produce a nation whereby, ” We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” What could possible go wrong? LOL

  92. 240 years have gone by already. And people are beating themselves and others up, for the pursuit of happiness.

  93. Mark C. Rathbun

    Yeah – since I called them out on it. OSA Nouveau is perfectly described in the NOTs technology. Copies.

  94. LOL

  95. They say ev’rything can be replaced
    Yet ev’ry distance is not near
    So I remember ev’ry face
    Of ev’ry man who put me here

    I see my light come shining
    From the west unto the east
    Any day now, any day now
    I shall be released

    They say ev’ry man needs protection
    They say ev’ry man must fall
    Yet I swear I see my reflection
    Some place so high above this wall

    I see my light come shining
    From the west unto the east
    Any day now, any day now
    I shall be released

    Standing next to me in this lonely crowd
    Is a man who swears he’s not to blame
    All day long I hear him shout so loud
    Crying out that he was framed

    I see my light come shining
    From the west unto the east
    Any day now, any day now
    I shall be released

  96. It is not on other people, to know when you have suffered enough.

  97. Research may be good, but conclusions made are usually based on preconceived ideas.

  98. Well what do I know? I just sit around everyday sippin’ on gin and juice…

    ….with my mind on my money and my money on my mind….

  99. There’s a whole Member’s Only section of ESMB that you absolutely cannot see unless you log in. And it has been tightened up even more over the past year. New members still can’t access parts of the Member’s Only section until they post around 75 times I think. I don’t remember the exact number.

    The Member’s Only section is about as large as the Public section too. A lot of sub-forums with many, many threads. And yes the chatroom is also Member’s Only.

  100. Very good point about conclusions being based on preconceived ideas. We human folk have a tendency to do that don’t we?

  101. @Lone Star

    Apparently it was decided that you (and anyone else reading) need edumucating in the nouveau OSA *new* proper anti-mcclaughry narrative – just like on ESMB and the Bunker – which now goes something like this: Great Research! Bad Conclusions.

    – With the exception of the random fly by horse-pissing that attacks both the research and the conclusions –

    The main new *line* usually appears whenever someone either links to our blog and/or is complimentary of our work – when the “silent routine” isn’t the tactic of choice.


  102. To Mark Rathbun –

    “Just the facts” troll is dissembling.

    The big recent thread about you and your wife titled: Mark ‘Marty’ Rathbun on Tony Ortega and the Underground Bunker v. Scientologists was made not visible to non-members some time after July 20th, 2016.

    At that time, it was up to 51 pages – here’s a PDF for you of page 51 of that thread I had saved that day:

    Click to access page-51-july-20-2016-mark-marty-rathbun-on-tony-ortega-and-the-underground-bunker-v-scientologists.pdf

    If you do a google search of “Mark ‘Marty’ Rathbun on Tony Ortega and the Underground Bunker v. Scientologists” you can still access the google cached version of some of the pages – like this one:

    Image –

    But if you try to click on any of the google search results directly you get this page –

    Image –

    Bottom line Mark, is that it appears that within two days of your “You may be right” post on July 19, the thread was moved out of non-members view.


  103. “But I thought you were one of the smart ones and understood that in the fierce fight for our lives some of us are in, writing the same old lefty political essays has been completely drowned out by the noise of the Internet.

    Carrying water for local lefty activists? Hey, that went out when those activists got their own Twitter feeds and Tumblrs and, of course, blogs. They don’t need us anymore, Louis.

    . . .

    Does that make us less “alternative”? Well, as plenty have pointed out, in the age of the web it’s nearly impossible to define “alternative” anymore. But I know what you mean when you say “alternative,” Louis. It’s the old hippie ideal of endlessly pushing a lefty agenda to keep up your “movement” cred. Hey, good luck with that. But I live in a cutthroat town, and I have salaries to pay. Your version of “alternative” wouldn’t last a month here.”

    Tony Ortega


    Is Tony endlessly pushing a lefty agenda to keep up his “movement” cred?

    Is seems the starving thirsty activists DO need you Tony! And you are making lots of the Internet noise!

  105. P.S. Sammy on the drums. Really does leave every life he touches with nothing but, good memories. Lives in that cut throat town, and never ran another down.

  106. Thich Nhat Hahn: Vietnamese Zen Monk. Nominated by MLK for a Nobel Peace Prize. Brought attention to the Vietnam War as he was there and escaped — has this to say:

    Please Call Me by My True Names
    by Thich Nhat Hanh

    “Don’t say that I will depart tomorrow —
    even today I am still arriving.

    Look deeply: every second I am arriving
    to be a bud on a Spring branch,
    to be a tiny bird, with still-fragile wings,
    learning to sing in my new nest,
    to be a caterpillar in the heart of a flower,
    to be a jewel hiding itself in a stone.

    I still arrive, in order to laugh and to cry,
    to fear and to hope.

    The rhythm of my heart is the birth and death
    of all that is alive.

    I am the mayfly metamorphosing
    on the surface of the river.
    And I am the bird
    that swoops down to swallow the mayfly.

    I am the frog swimming happily
    in the clear water of a pond.
    And I am the grass-snake
    that silently feeds itself on the frog.

    I am the child in Uganda, all skin and bones,
    my legs as thin as bamboo sticks.
    And I am the arms merchant,
    selling deadly weapons to Uganda.

    I am the twelve-year-old girl,
    refugee on a small boat,
    who throws herself into the ocean
    after being raped by a sea pirate.
    And I am the pirate,
    my heart not yet capable
    of seeing and loving.

    I am a member of the politburo,
    with plenty of power in my hands.
    And I am the man who has to pay
    his “debt of blood” to my people
    dying slowly in a forced-labor camp.

    My joy is like Spring, so warm
    it makes flowers bloom all over the Earth.
    My pain is like a river of tears,
    so vast it fills the four oceans.

    Please call me by my true names,
    so I can hear all my cries and my laughter at once,
    so I can see that my joy and pain are one.

    Please call me by my true names,
    so I can wake up,
    and so the door of my heart
    can be left open,
    the door of compassion.”

    We must stay open BUT awake. Otherwise we will never be ABLE to live LONG enough to enable others to just SEE

    The ASC thinks they are either the pirate or the girl. The child in Uganda or the arms merchant. They are both and neither.


  107. Yes, it’s incredible how much our “filters” and fixed ideas affect what we perceive. Bias confirmation is a related term.

  108. Virginia last early winter or late fall on ESMB I started a thread in the Member’s Only section regarding Hubbard and British Intelligence. I used much of your work but didn’t say so because I knew how radioactive the name McClaughry is. That name alone can cause coniption fits and full scale melt downs. Much like the name “Marty” does as well.

    I tried to be as clear and brief as possible on that thread, so I’d take some of your posts and paraphrase them in my own words while copying and pasting the documentation proving and showing a link between Hubbard and the Spooks. I of course copied and pasted relevant sections of Miles Copeland’s book in which he named Scientology and Hubbard specifically and how they were used and why.

    Well, only a very few people expressed interest in the subject while most of the regular ESMBers mocked and ridiculed it. Of course Veda was the biggest jackass and mocker. But I can say the sky is blue and that asswipe would find a way to mock and disagree with me. He felt it was his duty to cut me down to size on a semi-regular basis. Talk about a bitter, cranky old cuss/fart. Yikes!

    Anyway, that thread lasted about a week. If that long.

    Now ‘Just The Facts’ above apparently found something to mock regarding Hubbard’s rank in the Navy. I think that you asserted, if memory serves, that Hubbard only received such a high rank so quickly due to his relationship with Intelligence. Okay, let’s just say hypothetically that you were wrong about how he achieved the rank so quickly. It still doesn’t discount the voluminous evidence that you uncovered showing that Hubbard was being handled by and was working with Intelligence operatives for decades. And from a very young age.

    It’s something how closed minded people naturally are. It’s like most humans come out of the womb pre-set to be closed minded. Of course you and your husband can be wrong about some details. And even wrong about some conclusions. But I still stand by the fact that you both did an incredible amount of research and your documentation massively proves it.

  109. But I heard through the grapevine, from one of my tipsters, from a source, that Tony O got booted from V.V. as the body count on female employees rocked concerns over legal threats. My tipster directed me this:

    Female Employees Drop Like Flies At “Village Voice”

    Tony was, um, apparently “taxing” . Willingly “axing”. .

  110. Do you have any specific you could mention to back up your conclusion?

  111. So, yeah. He would have been the perfect guy to send after Monique.

  112. I guess these ladies would know more about him:

    Deanna Martin, deputy copy chief (quit yesterday)
    Tricia Romano, reporter (reported to have quit last Friday; sources tell The Observer she was fired)
    Adamma Ince, deputy managing editor (quit last Thursday)
    Maggie Shnayerson, spokeswoman (quit Sept. 12)
    Laura Conaway, executive director (fired in August)
    Mara Altman, reporter (fired in June)
    Kristen Lombardi, reporter (fired in May)
    Keach Hagey, media reporter (fired in May)
    Emma Span, sports columnist (fired in March)

  113. Thanks so much for the info – I think I remember that thread of yours before apparently they must have disappeared it and I couldn’t see it any more, and you’re right, we can certainly be wrong about a few things here and there but we do try to correct them when we find out about it and/or can get to it – like I did with Hubbard’s NR (Naval Reserve) pay sheet where I had later discovered that I had one of the details understood wrong.

    It’s really been nice talking with you Lone Star, I have much appreciated it.


  114. Single Story and Classifying (a person or thing, a normal activity of the mind) Plus Judgement are similar concepts. They both address a persistent human trait. If “Classifying Plus Judgement” escapes my attention, perhaps “Single Story” will come to mind.
    A worthwhile video

  115. Right before Tony left , four more people were axed. Geeze, who was left by the time Tony was asked to pack his desk? And apparently the legal and political drama that fomented up there with Tony at the helm just got to be unmanageable. Those “activists” became such a nuisance.

    “These latest departures come after a rough summer over at the Voice. In August, four editorial staffers were laid off. The paper has also increasingly been dealing with legal and political drama due to its online adult classifieds operation,”

    Maybe that “legal drama” had to do with power abuse? Sexual discrimination? Ethnic cleansing goals towards the female race? I can only guess.

  116. Here’s a little beauty from Tin Hardin. He wrote “If I Were a Carpenter” among other good songs.

  117. Forgot to add – We can even be wrong about some conclusions we have previously written, but we fix those too when we come across new evidence etc., when we come back around on re-editing something.

    But we certainly will not change details or conclusions just because some troll comes by spewing some canned narrative bs, that’s for DAMN sure.


  118. He doesn’t seem to have any problems being cut throat.

    adjective: cut-throat
    (of a competitive situation or activity) fierce and intense; involving the use of ruthless measures.
    “cutthroat competition led to a lot of bankruptcies”
    synonyms: ruthless, merciless, fierce, intense, aggressive, dog-eat-dog; vulgar slang : ass-kicking
    “cutthroat competition between rival firms”

  119. GMW – I’m confused here. “. . . .new OtVIII’s really do clean themselves out . . .” and ” These new OTVIII’s may have damaged themselves . . .”

    So which is it in your opinion, a worthwhile pursuit or dangerous mental activity? To me it sounds like a trip to the spin bin.

  120. Have to admit that sent me right into glee.

  121. There is such a thing as knowing something first – independently. I think it bothers some people that the reason that I can find the documentation I do is because that’s exactly what I do quite often. Hence the attempt to characterize such an ability (and I’m certainly not the lone ranger in having that ability) as “preconceived” AS IF IT IS A BAD THING.

    Of course it isn’t.

    The only problem comes in when a person does this trying to match a previously existing (and wrong, skewed, or incomplete CREATED idea) which is what I think many people do regarding scientology. They do not want to see that Hubbard and scientology were an intelligence operation from the beginning. Doesn’t mean it isn’t seen, but it’s not *wanted* to be seen because it doesn’t line up with that person’s created ideas.

    It is rather a life-changing event to understand that about Hubbard and Scientology. Pretty much changes everything – as in a whole lot of narratives (created views) have to go right out the window and some people really like their narratives. Even more than the truth apparently.


  122. Oops – forgot to address my comment. That was to you Lone Star.


  123. Sometimes there actually is a single all-inclusive story about something that is the *only* true one, but I don’t think that is what Mark is highlighting here. I think he’s more talking about the made-up ones (and thereby incomplete usually at best, outright reversals of truth at worst). We don’t have to throw the baby out with the bathwater though. Just because people like to alter truth just to suit their own current purposes doesn’t meant we should all then alter the truth ourselves to create the idea that there’s no such thing as a definitive truth about something.

  124. Path of Buddha

    Hi Richard,
    Thanks for the comment. I had this discussion with Tony Ortega a few years ago, and he did not accept what I was saying. So I felt that this might need additional explanation.
    In the upper OT levels, when I completed them in 1987, there was a very strong watch on the ethics of the solo auditor. For example, I remember that I was keeping myself out of trouble. I was eating right, getting plenty of sleep and exercise etc. Sounds boring. My girlfriend was also on solo nots so we did not talk about case, but we talked about ideas in general. No one in their right mind could have completed the OT levels without an understanding of the symbolic nature of the material. So if you went after one BT at a time you might spend your whole life on the level and get nowhere. In the end, it gets down to “cleaning”. Use that in a symbolic way. When I say that OTVIII’s clean themselves, I am saying that no matter how you view the level, you are in a sense always cleaning. You are always reducing what is not wanted. Sort of like cleaning your garage.
    But this is where the cleaning crosses the fine line of damage. The activity of cleaning can become dangerous. This happens when wrong ideas are substituted. You had to train and take courses while on Solo Nots. So as you were cleaning, Hubbard’s ideas filtered into the space. So in the end it is dangerous. I got really lucky because when I got onto OT VIII, Hubbard made a fool of himself when he copied Blavatsky’s ideas on Nirvana and the Buddha. I caught him and avoided further damage. Hope this explains it.
    New OT VIII’s, as shown on Ortega’s blog, have complete freedom of religion. Personally, I think they have been damaged. However, I always maintained my right to choose my religion and I grant that to them without mockery.

  125. My memory isn’t quite the steel trap it used to be. I do now remember that I had started two threads on the subject of Scientology and Intelligence, one for the Public Forum and one for the Member’s Only side. The latter being with more in-depth details. And it was in February, not the early winter.

    Here’s the one on the Public Forum….

  126. Thank you Marildi and Marie. Just another thought; this ability took many years of being stupid, many years of being arrogant and many years of simply not knowing what it’s all about and tired of suffering.

    It took years of devoted study. Years of not retaliating under fire. Years of not allowing stupid harsh words find there way to my mouth.

    Years of being constructively self critical.

    Years of meditating and self inquiry. Being a disciple to my teacher (disciple is simply one who learns by being disciplined, disciplining oneself).

    When I was able to neutralize the need to protect myself, to retaliate from real or false judgements. When I was able to actually neutralize the inner need, the inner reactions to protect and retaliate against an outside person, when I was safe and calm under fire;

    that’s when I was able to see the person before me with real love and understanding. Even though they were ripping me a new one.

    Real love and understanding is a mighty power. It is mighty because the person expressing it has had to overcome mighty armies of mental negativity to be able to be pure enough to simply be, and feel safe under most or all conditions.

    But the mightiest of weapons in the arsenal of self transformation is beyond a doubt: meditation and reasoned self enquiry.

    IT’S FUCKEN HARD WORK!!! But good and rewarding work. My most prize possession in life is my meditations. It’s like falling in love newly; everyday. It is having my intuitive counselor available 24/7

    I wish the world could know this.

  127. Oh, sorry. The political and legal and drama had to do with adult classifies and child prostitution. The activists that were giving Tony a hard time. He had salaries to pay!

  128. The Brooklyn District Attorney prosecuted 32 sex trafficking cases in a year and a half, the vast majority of which involved girls who were marketed through Villiage Voice adult classifies!

    And those damned lefty activist hippies became such pests!!

    Read more:
    Follow us: @politico on Twitter | Politico on Facebook

  129. Ah. Thanks for that. Yes, that’s the one that I saw.


  130. Three Washington teenagers have filed a personal injury lawsuit against the classified ad website, alleging that the site allowed them to be forced into prostitution for the company’s own financial gain.

    The three unnamed girls, now aged 15 through 17, filed the suit in Pierce County Superior Court in Tacoma, Washington. In the suit they allege that through the adult listings in the company allowed them to be raped — and that it profited as a result, making millions of dollars each month.

  131. Virginia: “There is such a thing as knowing something first – independently.”

    Yes, and that’s a high ability. I was using the word “preconceived” to mean what you described as “created.”

    To quote Einstein: “The intellect has little to do on the road to discovery. There comes a leap in consciousness, call it Intuition or what you will, the solution comes to you and you don’t know how or why.”

    You also wrote that people “do not want to see that Hubbard and scientology were an intelligence operation from the beginning.”

    Assuming that is true (and I’m not necessarily doubting it), I imagine there could also be many “narratives” created on top of that as well. One of them might be that world domination was the basic aim of the intelligence operation Hubbard was involved with, and that this was his personal aim. Or am I missing data?

  132. “I wish the world could know this.”

    Brian, you may remember that some time ago I commented that the posts you wrote that were about your spiritual understandings were the most valuable (much more so than your views on Hubbard – just sayin’ 🙂 ). And your writing on that subject keeps improving. Seems to me your “years of devoted study…meditating and self inquiry” have paid off. Your message comes through beautifully. I loved this:

    “When I was able to neutralize the need to protect myself, to retaliate from real or false judgments. When I was able to actually neutralize the inner need, the inner reactions to protect and retaliate against an outside person, when I was safe and calm under fire; that’s when I was able to see the person before me with real love and understanding.”

    What could be better? 🙂

  133. Mark has consistently revised the menu and thus stayed true to these following words of wisdom:

    Rabbi Rami Shapiro writes: “Aren’t all religions equally true? No, all religions are equally false. The relationship of religion to truth is like that of a menu to a meal. The menu describes the meal as best it can. It points to something beyond itself. As long as we use the menu as a guide we do it honor. When we mistake the menu for the meal, we do it and ourselves a grave injustice.”

  134. Thank you Mr. George! A cogent explanation! I shall now rest easy – laughter

  135. I hold shit. I talk shit. I’m a menace to society.

    …you come out here and mock it up for a hobby…

    …they are a group of bullies needing someone to put up a foot up their ass.

    How creepy can it get? That creepy.

    “You like or dislike people long before you know much about them; you trust or distrust strangers without knowing why; you feel that an enterprise is bound to succeed without analyzing it. Whether you state them or not, you often have answers to questions that you do not completely understand, relying on evidence that you can neither explain nor defend.”
    ― Daniel Kahneman

  136. Tim Hardin — brilliant songwriter — life cut short by heroin addiction and overdose. 39 years of age.

    Addiction will kill you … be it heroin (fast), alcohol (slower), ASC or any form of imbalance (slowest) …

    Windhorse … forever striving for balance — requires seeing all my bias’

  137. Just the facts

    Thanks for the heads up mcclaughry. I had read that thread when it came about but didn’t follow it as it was just conjecture. Didn’t realise it had been “locked” as I didn’t try to read it again.

    BTW, I’m sure you wouldn’t address people in person like you just did in writing. Otherwise, odds are you would be dead by this point in your life.

    Just friendly heads up so you don’t lose yours.

  138. George: “The activity of cleaning can become dangerous. This happens when wrong ideas are substituted.”

    I am interested in what you consider were Hubbard’s wrong ideas. The only fundamental one you have specified in the past, that I can recall, is his belief in the thetan as an eternal soul (although recently you stated that the soul is “nearly permanent” according to the Buddha).

    Can you please specify any other fundamental ideas of Hubbard’s that you feel are wrong. It would be worth thinking about for us former scientologists.

  139. The activity of sitting in a room, undisturbed, and being asked a bunch of questions about a particular area of your life – even to the point of entering a focused trance – helps you to focus deeply enough to see things about yourself that you have never seen before. And it helps you to discover things about you and your own life that would have remained hidden to you.

    In this very basic sense, any auditing can be good for a person.

    But Hubbard knew about the suggestive vulnerabilities of trance states, and the insidious practice of inserting suggestions into the minds of people, and he exploits those vulnerabilities from trance states in Scientologists during auditing and training.

    This is where what could have been a beneficial activity turned harmful.

    And, whether done out of his evil greed or his loopy insanity, both the good and the bad in auditing go straight back to L Ron Hubbard.


  140. This is a post from the ESMB Moderator ethercat, who basically runs ESMB since Emma stepped out of the role a few years ago:

    Marty has not been banned and would be welcome (by me, anyway; y’all might be different) if he chose to come, even if he needs to register a new account because he forgot the password to the old one after all these years. However, the Off Topic section (including Grudge Matches) requires more than just being a 2-post member now:

    Members are now required to have more than 50 posts and to have been registered for longer than 60 days in order to read, start threads, and respond in the Off Topic section and its subforums; Grudge Matches; and Historical and its subforums.

    Members with more than 2 posts can read, start threads, and respond in “ESMB announcements for members” and “ESMB Help and Feedback”.

    The other Scientology-related sections are public access to read, and any member level can post in them, as they have been. Thread here if anyone wants to read how the change came about:…ESMB-community

    But, I can give access to people on an individual basis, even if they don’t have the required time or number of posts, provided I can recognize and verify them, and I would do that for Marty if he requested it.

    I made a joke of it, but mainly I moved the thread in here because of the excessive speculation about Marty’s state of mind that has taken place in this thread, which I would have thought he’d prefer, that it not be indexed in search engines.

    I guess it’s damned if you do and damned if you don’t, when it comes to making decisions on a board like this.

    I think when you don’t have enough facts to draw a rational conclusion, it’s best not to speculate in ways that may be hurtful to someone. IMO, it says more about the person(s) speculating than it does the person being speculated about, but I also understand not everyone sees it my way.

    I’m not going to run around all over the web to keep up with what people are saying, reply, get involved, etc., but someone can let Marty know he can come join in if he likes. I expect he would be asked a LOT of questions, though, if he did. Please try to keep them civil if that happens.

  141. Mark C. Rathbun

    Not to mention the non-linear abstraction processes that scn processes can elicit – which if you delve very deeply into Zen, you will find to be the very purpose of koans. This statement will not be understood (and attacked) by non-peekers (the term Abraham Maslow coined for those who don’t seem capable or interested in transcendent or spiritual, intuitive experience at all).

  142. Who is Daniel Kahneman? Who was he talking to?

  143. Thank you Alanzo.

  144. Mark C. Rathbun


  145. Tony did not address any of this at all in his “reporting”. In fact, he negated everything written above by screaming , “Monique fires attorneys without cause”.

    First of all, you can not fire attorneys. You select them to represent you, or you ask them not to represent you. He might as well have ran headlines that read, “Monique Rathbun fires real estate agent without cause” after someone showed her a few homes she didn’t buy.

    But I don’t think the readers of his blog are educated about these things. They couldn’t even read Monique’s court filing and understand it. Tony had to tell them what it all “meant”.

    But in all of his “reporting”, he negated everything in that court document Monique filed.

    He said exactly the opposite:

    1. Her attorneys did nothing wrong.
    2. Her decision was one of injustice.
    3. She was mentally incompetent.
    4. She took a settlement and got paid.

    And he spent months on this campaign, ensuring the media was saturated with this line not only mainstream, but also in Texas. As some “tipster” nagged and nagged Texas media outlets to publish the same.

  146. He fair gamed Stacey Francis all over town, and she is a single mother with two kids to support. Why? He does work for “donations”. I wondered what his profit was that week for burying that woman as best he could.

  147. Mark C. Rathbun

    “Boy. We brutalize characters we don’t cotton to. You know, ones that don’t look and act like us. But, when it gets excessively brutal, we do it out of public sight. Not good for our image, you know? Ya’ll are perfectly welcome to attend our little klatch – dedicated just to you, boy. You gettin’ the treatment, cause of course you ain’t publicly denounced your wife. All the good ole boys did – right in lock step with the grand grand wizard. Nothing personal you know, well, you know…can’t trust a thing her type has to say. Now, there’s plenty of fairness in our backwoods klatches. See, the local grand wizard makes sure of that. Who is he? Boy, you damn uppity for where you come from, ain’t you? Well, he’s new, but he’s got a secret handle. Can’t tell you his name – and of course you’ll see nothing but his white, pointy hood. By the way, how do you like mine? Kind of makes you wonder who I really am, what makes me worthy of being the judge and you being the boy, don’t it? Well, we found that tends to keep boys like you in their proper places. It’s healthy – puts the fear of God in people, you know unbelievin’ savages like you, boy. Well, there’s plenty of us over there. Who are we? What does it matter, boy? We all got pointy hoods. We all of the same ilk. We all buy our mayonnaise in 5-gallon tubs at Costco. What more you need to know,boy?”

  148. I have always found the items written by Virginia to be highly intelligent. I saw the comments about her being crazy, but it seemed she was talking over people’s heads.

    If they can’t understand you, they say you are crazy. Some people tend to have a ceiling they reach on an internet discussion. The purpose isn’t to exchange ideas or information, it is to foment and forward attitude.

    And if people are required to do some math in their own head, it causes dismay.

    I had a situation where I knew someone that was floating in the Indie movement, was working for OSA. Once I knew, I went back over thins persons actions, and was able to view the purpose. Looking at data this person had shared, it was clear.

    1. The person left the S.O. with a 250K debt (thereabout).
    2. The person had done A – E.
    3. To do A-E you have to have paid off your freeloaders debt.
    4. This person did not have money to pay off their freeloader’s debt.
    5. But this person had, to get through A-E.
    6. This person was now floating in the Indie movement.
    7. This person was full time intelligence gathering.

    I searched and searched the Internet and lo and behold, on Virginia’s blog I found it. She had it right there that the person had been working for OSA as an internet sock puppet.

    This explained how he paid off his S.O. Freeloaders debt and got through A-E.

    At that point, it looked to me like OSA had put forth a heavy effort with the gaslighting on Virginia.

    Since there was some math involved for people to think with, I didn’t even bother sharing the information. Learning can be painful for some people, especially if there is an inconvenient truth. Or some math involved.

  149. They send Lulu as the messenger because nobody has any issues with her. They stir up all of the ill will and slander with abuse, then send someone out on the front lines that nobody would want to harm.

    The thing is, this is an OPEN forum and Marty is here on the front lines full time. Why don’t people that have something to say or ask Marty, just come over here, introduce themselves on the same terms (identify self),
    and do it? You know, like other human beings do.

  150. If some mercy was tossed out, to pull back some of that injustice, Mick Wenlock must have stepped in. He does not post there frequently, but he will stand up to blatant abuse and injustice. Any improvement to the current scene, or the curbing of public harm and injustice, would have come from him. Seriously doubt they had any shame or remorse on their own. Or the thread would not have been mocked up to begin with. I do not think many of them have any awareness of consequences. And if they, do, then it is just deliberate evil.

  151. Ortega was canned from the Village Voice in September 2012. This is the scene that was going on there in March, six months earlier. The newspaper’s founder’s own son was protesting in front of the place. Law enforcement and activists had already been involved.

    Nearly 100 protesters gathered in front of the paper’s editorial offices in the East Village.

    The protesters, a coalition of religious leaders, activists, and politicians set up a pile of children’s sneakers in front of the Village Voice building in Cooper Square.

    “These are for the girl who should have been walking in these shoes, but isn’t,” said the Rev. Galen Guengerich, senior pastor of Manhattan’s All Souls Unitarian church, holding up a pair at the protest. “We hear the silent cries of those who have been used and discarded.”

    The group also delivered a near-250,000-signature petition demanding that Village Voice Media stop running the ads.

    All of this protest from his own community could not budge Tony Ortega.

    The classified ad website earned the parent company $22 million per year.

    “It’s the old hippie ideal of endlessly pushing a lefty agenda to keep up your “movement” cred. Hey, good luck with that. But I live in a cutthroat town, and I have salaries to pay.” Tony Ortega

  152. Except when it comes to Mike and I, then he’s all for it (blatant abuse and injustice). See the Help Part 2 thread where he agrees and helps forward the crazy narrative.

    It’s funny what blows peoples covers. Not funny ha ha, funny interesting.

  153. lol. Math? Quiet. I’m busy having a blonde moment.

  154. Additional note –

    Nancy Many was behind that Help thread – they took the original one out of view probably for the same reasons they took Mark’s out of view.

    Nancy Many, a two-time deep cover intelligence agent for the Church of Scientology (both the Guardian’s office and OSA) specifically conspired with my son to bring him onto the ESMB forum to tell his “story” – which was really OSA’s story about how terrible and crazy his mother is.

    Nancy specifically introduced him to esmb in the first post of the original Help thread, saying his story was very worthwhile – and then exited stage left never to be seen on the thread again.

    Mark may know more about Nancy’s background and role in things, but maybe not.

    Since noone could see the original Help thread – ie public people – my son started Help part 2 where some more trashing went on until my husband and I and his sister showed up and messed up their disgusting little op – Bunnyskull was one of the worst in having conniption fits. They accused me of pretending to be my daughter, because OF COURSE noone could want to actually defend us.

    Until my daughter posted video proof.

    Then they banned us. lol

    That’s what Mick was in the middle of chiming right on in with the rest of them.

  155. I find it impossible to think with the idea he is in this arena because of his care factor for mankind. Clearly, he fair games people daily on his blog.

    So what is his purpose? He got a book written, that was for Tony. He has his donation button. That is for Tony. He is now promoting himself as a “Scientology expert” and getting on national press lines. That is for Tony. He is now telling the press he worked on the documentary “Going Clear”. That is for Tony. He made himself relevant. That is for Tony. He has made himself an F list celebrity. He propels his name forward on every outlet he can with every flap. That is for Tony. Tony, is for Tony.

    And I am not saying I can blame him for digging through this mess of losses, and finding a way to profit. All the way, for himself. He profits daily over dead bodies and the collateral damage of others. And the people that support him, they are in agreement all the way.

    But it does make him, and his cybercult a sham for “justice”.

    This is NOT a single story. There are many other stories behind this, and I am laying them down here. It works in reverse too. The single story Tony has used, is that he left the Voice to carry on his work, on behalf of victims. That is the single story in reverse.

    No. There are many stories.

    To be perfectly honest, the more I read them, the more hesitant I become to even post them here. It is all nauseating. It is a royal chore to find these stories. It is all en theta. It is all connected to the underbelly of existence.

    I can assure EVERYONE, Tony Ortega will NEVER, EVER, publish court documents, police records, victim impact statements, or witness testimony, of the children effected by his profiteering at the Village Voice.

  156. Thank you my dear. I appreciate it. I am happier talking this way. I am happier sharing my own discoveries. Really I am.

    But again, the only real reason I continue to talk about Ron this way, is because there are new people just waking up from the nightmare of the prison of belief.
    For you old timers I am just a negative nancy that keeps harping on the same ole same ole.

    Those words are not intended for you.

    They are intended to give the newly escaped a jump start in rehabilitated thinking. And the best place to start is in scrutinizing the man who made it a punishable offense for having thoughts that could rob you of family and friends.

    I know a few do not like me for doing it. I am ok with it. I’m not in this for popularity. It’s just something my insides need to express. And in that regard, I am being true to myself. And true to those who might benefit from it.

    But thank you so much for appreciating my thoughts and perceptions.

    Much love always


  157. Chee Chalker

    This is hardly an ‘open forum’. But you wouldn’t know that Oracle, because Marty posts all 100 of your posts, but regularly blocks others.
    And now I am guessing that Marty is claiming the moderators at esmb are racist. (I’ve only scanned esmb, I don’t have the time go down that rabbit hole).

    Marty is guilty of the exact same actions of which he accuses esmb. J’accuse!

    And now he drags Costco into it…….that’s a line I would not cross…😑

  158. Nancy Many was one of those in charge of the list 1 rpfing debacle. One of my closest friends was separated from her daughter for years because of that. I was dumbstruck when I read Nancy Many’s book, that she dedicated one line to this. A very, vague, “I thought something was strange” line.

    I could have published a fkn 30 book encyclopedia of stories of people that fell under that holocaust and their abuse.

    The thing with Mick is, he just rose above the challenges of his experience and came out and made a very good life for himself. He spends more time actually living and creating and being valuable to other people. He kind of dips in and out and , I think, misses things you do not see unless you either look constantly, or are fixated on solving puzzles.

    Unfortunate, but my first opinion leader was Perry Mason.

    Perfect math, perfect tr’s.

  159. I became addicted to solving puzzles.

  160. Mark C. Rathbun

    I’ve had a consistent moderation policy for years. Of late, I’ve loosened it for the weak and downtrodden who have been bullied and spit upon for years by the likes of cowards like you.

  161. Another thought:

    I have scrutinized my motivation many times on why I come to these sites. The above reason is key.

    But I have intuited another: for some reason, maybe it’s a past life thing, I feel I am making amends for deception. I have no conscious awareness or memory of it. But it’s a feeling.

    By trying to unravel the prison of belief publicly as I have done here, I am somehow neutralizing some karmic debt.

    Maybe I have been this type of person, someone who used others for my own gain. Maybe I am a “fallen yogi” as they say, who once had some spiritual power without the Dharmic do’s and don’ts internalized into my character.

    I have thought about that.

    So for me, I am doing what needs to be done regarding my deconstructing of LRH. Especially as far as other practices are concerned.

    My passion is to make it ok for those just getting out to know that the road to Total Freedom does not end with Scientology. It’s a sad betrayal and the cause of dashed hopes and broken dreams for those who granted Ron infallibility.

    The road is wide open. And awash with wonderful teachers. The goal of immortality and freedom from the body cage is attainable; here, now!

  162. He also had zero attitude. I grew up thinking if there was a man like this on television, they must be all over the world.

    I did wonder on occasion, if Hubbard got his ideas for tr’s, watching Perry Mason shows.

  163. If you don’t mind my asking…which post/article was it on the blog?

  164. Chee Chalker

    Show me one post where I have bullied someone.
    I suggest you word clear the word ‘hypocrite’.

  165. “It has just been told to us that -XXXXXXXX- acted as an internet volunteer for OSA at this time, and that he sometimes posted through a shared account of pseudonyms “RedFred”, “Les Rogers”, and “Freethought2” as well as several others.”

    Might ring a bell.

  166. Don’t really care to open that door too much on this thread. It would create a circus of it’s own, if you know what I mean.

  167. Path of Buddha

    Hi marildi! Great to hear from you. I hurt my left shoulder about two weeks ago but I was very fortunate. No broken bones, just swelling.
    Yes, marildi. The eternal soul. I usually do not comment on that as per my teaching, but I need to make an exception. This issue of what happens at the moment of the big bang when a new cycle of the universe starts has implications for karma. Is the soul eternal? was always met by silence. I did some research because the cycle of big bangs just keeps going so what happens to the karma? According to the ancient texts, in the exact moment between the end of one cycle to the beginning of the next, karma briefly changes form. Then it re-emerges in the new big bang. So you get an almost eternity because the karma ends on enlightenment or nirvana. After sainthood, the “soul” or karma stops and does not go through the big bang. Anyway, that is what I found out. I neither accept it or reject it. I do not speculate. I make no conclusion.
    I think the second dynamic is the area where Hubbard took the most risk and made the most mistakes. Hubbard had strange views on sexuality. Homosexuals were trapped. I personally supervised the entrance of a homosexual into “refuge in the Buddha”. His partner attended. The monk had NOTHING on it. We even had a party after the ceremony. All of this stuff is a total non-issue in Theravada. Hubbard made such a big deal.
    I also think that OT V was totally stacked against the scientologist. Think about what Hubbard did. Big case, billions of bt’s, Xenu. It takes years. Here is this theory, based on primitive exorcism, on a meter. You can handle these minor beings – and I mean MINOR- with much ease. Hubbard created a lot of wasted time.
    Marildi, I have a new clean slate with Hubbard. In the end, he was so confident because he bought into 19th century occultism. So what?
    He lived 1911-1986. What do you expect?
    Much Metta,

  168. Chee, I have been moderated on this blog many times. Do not suggest I have free rein here, or special perks. It is not true.

    TONY ORTEGA is the one who sought shelter with this crowd, by his seeming interest in assisting “the bullied”. By aligning himself with Marty and Monique and presenting himself as a valuable and symbiotic ally.

    Nobody in this arena had any use for Tony Ortega until Marty bought him in as an ally.

    Nobody in this arena had any use for Ray Jeffries until Marty made him useful.

    And the TRUTH IS THIS. THE REASON I can bring these issues up now is because of TONY ORTEGA’s DECLARES on the Rathbuns.

    Instead of protesting about the things I am able to say now, you just try to count the things I had to say about Tony Ortega for a LONG time, that did NOT get said.

    Marty has NOT “declared war” on Tony Ortega. All he has done is stop offering him shelter.

    All he has done to Ray Jeffries, is take away his value in this arena.

    Do you ever stop to think about the people that did NOT post on this blog or contribute to it BECAUSE of Tony Ortega?

    You are stuck on A=A. Try a little reverse division.

    I have posted reports of crimes against humanity here the last few days, and your biggest regret is my posts not getting muzzled?

    This may be why you have a dusty law degree. WHY do I even come up on your radar? Because you are rooting for a criminal. But I am not the prosecution. I am a witness.

    Tell us what history Marty has of barring testimony? Actual and factual reports and evidence. There is none. It is YOU protesting about my input as a witness. While accusing Marty of doing it!

    Tony Ortega violently disconnected from the Rathbuns. He is on his own now. It will start to sink in.

    Not only that, his big, “Thank you” to the Rathbuns, was to light a match and toss it on them. You’re over to back him up and complaining about Marty.

    You’d best back off this new oxygen flow , because I want to point something out to you.

    Have you seen anyone toss a lighted match at Marty, and not catch on fire?

  169. P.S. Not everyone that gets moderated on this blog turns into a big bawl baby about it. Usually it is because Marty doesn’t want you to make an ass out of yourself. Take it as a mercy.

  170. Hey Lulu –

    Could you please give a message to Ethercat?

    I have some questions for her:

    1. How many times have you seen another Ex-Scientologist called “crazy” and other denigrating labels on ESMB and personally done nothing about it?

    2. When you see someone else being personally insulted on ESMB, do you put up a big “YOU’RE BUTTHURT!!” picture in the thread if they complain about it to you like Emma used to do?

    3. How are you on AdHom character assasination of other Ex-Scientologists? Is it fine as long as enough ESMBers are saying the Ex is “crazy”, or accused of being an OSA agent, or someone with a minority opinion there?

    4. How about the huge numbers of Exes who have been banned or are not members of ESMB? Are they still fair game for ESMB character assassination since they are not a member there?

    5. Why don’t you do anything about posters like BunnySkull and some of the other ESMBers who are a source of consistent personal insults to other Ex-Scientologists, rarely if ever contributing anything productive to the discussion?

    I’m just interested in whether you are willing to speak up about the abusive treatment of Ex-Scientologists on ESMB since Emma is finally gone.


  171. To Mark Rathbun re: Just the facts comment – that leaves a nice record, thanks.

  172. What year was the list 1 crap going on at flag – do you recall?

  173. And in all fairness, when I had issues with Ortega I took it right onto his own forum and said what I had to say right in the middle of his excited fans. He banned ME. Otherwise I would have posted this right on his blog.

    When I was on ESMB I faced people there with my issues as soon as they came up. I was banned.,

    If I spoke here, it is only because I was muzzled there. Truth is, several people speaking here now, have been doing so since banned from other places. Fine, ban us from home neighborhood. But do you really have to stalk then and ensure they are banned from EVERYWHERE?

    You people are like OSA tossing people out of the Church then getting offended when they speak up. Seriously.

  174. Mark C. Rathbun

    I was sitting on it for a while and inadvertently approved it last time I logged on. I was going to check whether you wanted to post it – and you’ve answered that. I suppose you’ve become inured to that type of behavior having battled on the likes of esmb.

  175. Chee Chalker

    Post the rest of my comment and show one word that could be considered a vulgarity (i.e ‘sewer’)

    This is your idea of a debate? “My two year old is by far more mature than you”
    Seriously? Zen Master? That’s the best you can do?
    You’re the coward….my comment just highlighted the fact that you referred to commenters on this blog as ‘weak and downtrodden’.
    Somehow I don’t think Oracle and Virginia would appreciate being referred to as ‘weak and downtrodden’. I don’t think they caught that reference.

    Unless you only speak of women this way…..

    You can goad me all you like, I’m not going to fall into the trap of calling you crazy or any of the other ‘predictions’ you have of names people will call you.
    That is from the Scientologist handbook. Thank God, Allah, Yahew, Buddha and yes, even Xenu, that is a trap I never fell in to.
    If you want to debate in the arena of ideas, then there are a lot of people willing to engage.
    If you want to call names, then you’ll feel right at home when your 2 year old gets a little older and goes through that stage.
    And if you don’t post this, that’s fine. That’s expected. I can post it elsewhere, but I don’t think anyone would be that interested.

  176. Chee Chalker

    Hi Oracle,
    I don’t know what you are rambling on about….. I never mentioned Tony Ortega.
    You dont like him.
    You don’t like the Village Voice. I was not a big fan either. Just read Tonys articles and maybe a few movie reviews.
    I also never mentioned Ray Jeffreys (in today’s post)

    I never said Marty banned ‘testimony’. I said he banned comments.

    Marty does not need to ‘show mercy’ to me by banning my posts. I’ll stand behind what I write. If I am proven wrong, I’ll apologize.
    He doesn’t need to ban you either. All I did was point out the percentage of posts that belonged to one person and how that, IMO, was a ‘single story’.

  177. “But I have intuited another: for some reason, maybe it’s a past life thing, I feel I am making amends for deception. I have no conscious awareness or memory of it. But it’s a feeling.”

    Okay, I understand now. And I appreciate you sharing all that.

    Much love back, Brian. 🙂

  178. Thanks for the great reply, George. Always great to hear from you too.

    You wrote: “…So you get an almost eternity because the karma ends on enlightenment or nirvana. After sainthood, the ‘soul’ or karma stops and does not go through the big bang. Anyway, that is what I found out. I neither accept it or reject it. I do not speculate. I make no conclusion.”

    Very interesting data and, to me, quite plausible. But glad to know that you do not accept or reject anything just because it is written in the Buddhist scriptures.

    “I think the second dynamic is the area where Hubbard took the most risk and made the most mistakes. Hubbard had strange views on sexuality. Homosexuals were trapped.”

    More than likely, he was caught up in the societal beliefs of the time. To quote you on another part of your post: “What do you expect?” 🙂

    As regards the NOTs tech, you say “Hubbard created a lot of wasted time.”

    Could very well be, but at least he opened the door for others to develop better methods for handling that particular area. Not all but many have achieved great gains because of it, so there must be something to be said for it.

    Lastly: “Marildi, I have a new clean slate with Hubbard. In the end, he was so confident because he bought into 19th century occultism. So what? He lived 1911-1986. What do you expect?”

    Awesome about your new clean slate with Hubbard. You deserve to have one, as a result of your diligence. And I will say the same to you as I did to Brian: IMHO, your talents are better spent on other things. 😉

    Btw, how is it going on your book about the Buddha?

    Much metta,

  179. Okay, thank you.

  180. Ah. I see what happened. Well…in this case yea, it was ok because as I said makes a nice record of how nasty these people are but I probably normally would rather it be deep-sixed because who wants that kind of crap when you’re trying to have a decent conversation.

    I may be inured from esmb and other places and fully capable of dealing with these people but it doesn’t mean I particularly *like* being treated that way.

    I guess my normal vote would be to kill that kind of crap of I had my druthers.

    You have my private email though if you ever need to ask me about comments etc., or anything else for that matter.

    Thanks again Mark.


  181. George Layton

    Everyone that does not agree with your view is not out to get you. Everyone that comes here to comment and doesn’t believe that all your post are in fairness and come from seeing things as they truly are, is not out to get you. Everyone that posts here, that also post on the blogs that brutalize your character, are not sent here by your antagonists. Everyone beside your loyal followers are not with the OSA. You claim your wife has been publicly denounced while you denounce EVERYONE on the other blogs, THAT ARE TRYING TO SHED LIGHT ON THE HURTFUL ACTIONS OF SCIENTOLOGY, as no more then simple minded followers.

  182. “a) You noted at the outset that my calling out Ortega and co for libel and worse is “no doubt to the delight of Miscavige.” I have never spoken nor written to delight nor dampen any audience.”

    This is the funniest post I’ve read in a while. Keep em comin Marty

  183. Path of Buddha

    “Btw, how is it going on your book about the Buddha?”

    The monk I have been working with has been re-assigned. We have placed a temporary hold on the work. Once he masters his new duties, we will continue. As you know, the Buddha did not encourage any promotion of the religion. He failed in his first attempt at sending out monks and discontinued the practice. The official policy is based on three words spoken by the Buddha “Come and see”.
    In the meantime, I’m looking at – you are not going to believe it – a work on the history of feminism and mockery of cult members with some reference to Scientology. Does that have impact?

  184. Mark C. Rathbun

    I have no indication you are a woman. Troll test: Point out to me – with no gratuitous troll-baiting – where Tony Ortega was repugnantly sexist toward my wife.

  185. Mark C. Rathbun

    Are you delighted?

  186. Mark C. Rathbun

    TROLL TEST: Succinctly demonstrate how Tony Ortega treated Monique Rathbun in a repugnantly sexist fashion.

  187. Path of Buddha

    He is one of our favorites.

  188. Terril Park

    “The Oracle | July 26, 2016 at 1:43 pm | Reply
    I have always found the items written by Virginia to be highly intelligent. I saw the comments about her being crazy, but it seemed she was talking over people’s heads.|”

    I was certainly one of those that called her crazy. Many years ago
    her and Mike had a website, or something like that. It had one section whose purpose was to find out about things about Freezoners that
    they could be sued for. My page was the first to be put up. Virginia sent interrogatories to I don’t know how many people asking if anyone knew
    any sexual peccadilloes of Alan Walter. She got some info probably from
    someone in OSA and posted it around. I pointed out that he was entitled to face his accuser and know who it was. No one fessed up, and she gave a very lukewarm apology. Mike trained to class 3 best as I recall and joined the GO. Virginia joined the SO and got up to OT 7. They were declared when they pointed out that C/S series 73 had been altered so as to make
    6 month sec checks on OT 7 possible and many pages of that issue

    Mike and Virginia then went freezone and followed the CBR bridge. They were the most fundamentalist scientologists I ever came across. They claimed to be the only standard tech auditors on the planet. Virginia,s
    tech training consisted of OT 6. They said the only place where the upper bridge was delivered was at their place where LRH audited telepathically.

    Dosn’t really fit with Sarge’s account of LRH’s last days.

    They saw marcabians under the bed so’s to speak constantly. They earlier
    had a yahoo group COSI where Virginia’s moderation reduced numbers
    from approx 120 to approx 13. This sort of scuppered their intent to connect people up to auditors and course sups. When I pointed out to Virginia this reduction was a downstat she said it was an upstat as there
    were no “agents or marcabians” in the forum!

    In recent times they said the reason they joined CO$ was to spy on it.
    In practice they mostly spied on the Freezone and anyone who disagreed with them.

  189. George Layton

    Why are you shifting focus off of scientology?

  190. I believe current science estimates “The Universe” will last over one trillion years. Thinking in terms of “THIS Universe” is theoretical physics, imo.

  191. Laughter! – Hey fascinated – Even though I’m on Marty’s “side”, so to speak, I gotta admit your post had me laughing. At some point things gotta lighten up, right?

  192. Mark C. Rathbun


  193. We all change after Scientology, Terril.

    We decompress, learn knew things, evolve, grow, forgive and forget.

    I do not believe that Virginia’s views – especially on LRH – are the same today as they were when you described them.


  194. George Layton wrote:

    “Why are you shifting focus off of scientology?”

    Dear George –

    Not speaking for Marty but the reason that my focus has been on the treatment of Ex-Scientologists on the Post-Scientology Internet is because it is not good enough to say that “OSA wants us all to fight each other and actively foments conflict among exes and critics”.

    I believe that it is important to point out where that conflict and abuse of Ex-Scientologists is happening and call out those who are forwarding OSA lines on critics such as “they’re crazy”, “they’re not worthy of even polite acquaintance”, and they certainly are “not worthy of support”.

    Those are all fully documented OSA programs for their enemies and they have been picked up, knowingly or unknowingly, by far too many who should know better.

    I believe that the war is actually over. Scientology lost. We won. And I believe there is only the loss of tax-exempt status and, hopefully, criminal prosecutions to be achieved. But very very little of that is within our power.

    And so what is within our power are the attitudes and behaviors of war which must be replaced on the Post Scientology Internet with more civility and manners and mutual respect between Exes to continue to evolve and grow after Scientology.

    My criticism of Tony Ortega and his Underground Bunker, and of ESMB, is intended to point out those areas where cruelty and abuse is very bad for Ex-Scientologists who are trying to build stable, happy, and productive lives while moving on down the road from Scientology.

    Because of the siege mentality in the Ex/Critic/ScnWatching community, no one is willing to spot the influences and “enemy lines” that have been run through our own message boards and commenting communities since the ARS Days by OSA in an attempt to make the lives of Exes “living hells”.

    My focus has never gone off the Church of Scientology and it’s insidious and destructive influence in our own backyard.

    Kindness and respect are the antidotes to environments where all Exes can evolve and grow.

    And yes, I am shaming the few people who are in control of these environments on the Internet and who can do something to bring about better conditions for Exes after Scientology.

    Because it is FAR past time this needs to happen.


  195. FWIW I’m a gonna weigh in on Ethercat. Over the past few years I feel like I got to know her fairly well as we traded quite a few emails in addition to communication on the forum itself. I do believe that EC is good people. I believe that she did decide to move the thread discussing Marty to the Member’s Only side because she didn’t like the “psychoanalyzing” that was occurring by some. I’m sure there were some other reasons, but I think that was the biggest one. I know that a few others expressed opposition to labeling Marty and others as being “mentally Ill” by BunnySkull. Sheila, ITYIWT, and I think even Lulu Belle did. Sheila has since left ESMB and I notice that ITYIWT hasn’t posted much these past few weeks, it at all.

    Anyway, I believe that Ethercat is an honest person who doesn’t engage in politics or deception. I also believe that she’s been put in quite a tough position as the now only active Administrator of ESMB. At first Mick was supposed to be the main Admin while EC handled to technical side of it because that’s what she does IRL. She’s very adept at IT. But after a few months Mick bailed out…..Emma returned briefly to Admin…..then she decided to bail again herself….and it all fell in EC’s lap.

    I do believe that all of the ad hom on ESMB bothers her. She has cleaned it up a lot overall. (I helped by leaving….lol…) But there’s only so much she can do. If she completely cleaned it up there would be no more ESMB. That may end up happening actually. Not real soon, but I can see that eventuality.

    I do believe that her invitation to Marty to post on ESMB is genuine and sincere. Of course I wouldn’t recommend that Marty accept….lol… (Actually it might be fun. Well for me anyway as a spectator. I can load up on the beer and popcorn. Lol….) But it wouldn’t last long because the rotten tomatoes would start flying almost immediately were he to start posting there.

    Also FWIW, I myself am also not banned from ESMB. I just choose not to return. I have not logged in since April. I have no desire to see the Member’s Only side. I value my work on restoring sanity too much! Plus, I like to keep my heart rate down these days.

  196. That’s what I thought, thanks.

  197. Yes, Chee, I did get that reference. This is the only forum / blog I have not been banned from. Virginia has been banned from many too. I think that is as downtrodden as it gets. Unless we are banned from here too. Downtrodden means oppressed.

    And the first thing I thought of when I read Marty’s statement, was all the people that have been driven off of public communication lines by OSA can now come here to post. I thought it was genus.

    And there are people that do nothing but address me as hecklers. They do not seem to have interest in the thread or the topic.

    You bully by constant negation and attempts to nullify. When people come to this forum to challenge others it gets taxing.

    I do not have a sudden issue with Ortega. I have had an issue with Ortega for a long time. And if I could not lay down these truths here now, it would be up to me to set up my own blog for what? Just to make a point about Ortega? Who else is interested in him? Nobody. He got his movement going to support the book project. Which he said was his aim when he left the Voice, to do a book. Without his blog, there would be zero evidence of interest in his book. It is about a scammer, who got scammed. Then pleaded victim and walked all the way to the bank. Martin Scorsese didn’t offer to do the movie. Geeze Christ he has a photo of her on his site sun blaming after she scammed her way to get a cruise on a cruise liner. No mention in his book of the $$$$$$$$$$$$$ she earned on the C of S. Just like he never mentioned the $$$$$$$$$$ Ray Jeffries banked because Marty referred Debbie Cook to him. Which by the way, paid for whatever work Jeffries did on behalf of Monique and more.

    Yes, I have been bullied. It is all over the Internet in slurs, slander, false reports. So has Virginia.

    And you do negate as your main hobby. You call it “debate”.

    nullify; make ineffective.
    “alcohol negates the effects of the drug”
    synonyms: invalidate, nullify, neutralize, cancel; undo, reverse, annul, void, revoke, rescind, repeal, retract, countermand, overrule, overturn; informalnix; formalabrogate

    And it is bullying.

  198. I didn’t miss what Mark said, but I also have never had a post blocked by him so any loosening of moderation didn’t apply to my posts anyway. However, even if it did I seriously doubt the word “weak” comes to Mark’s mind as a description of me. I’m sure he has some idea just how long I have stood up to being treated badly by people “in power” and continued on living my life as I see fit anyway.

    Making what Mark said as somehow being some sick twist of benevolence towards women just reveals how abusive these people are *themselves* when they don’t feel they have successfully established dominance over someone. This usually involves trying to engage you in “debates” that are really just an online form of attempting to do a brain-changing*.

    (see this article – )

    People throw around the term debate as some PC term they think they can get away with using as a whitewash for having knock-down drag-out domination fights. The true result they are looking for in such a debate is “there can be only one.”

    To even enter a debate with such a person is a complete waste of time, and the only reason to engage them is to illustrate that point to others.


  199. “You can goad me all you like, I’m not going to fall into the trap of calling you crazy or any of the other ‘predictions’ you have of names people will call you.”

    Too late…

  200. I agree with you about ethercat on all points, LoneStar.

    She is a huge improvement over past people who have held her position.

    But there is a lot of bad Karma attached to ESMB for a lot of Exes, and I wanted her to step up and say something concrete about the future direction of the moderation of ESMB. I think that is owed to a community where too many have been harmed by the years of cruelty and abuse of Ex-Scientologists there.

    In my opinion, it’s not good enough to just make a few changes and try to slink into a new method of operation. A clean, clear statement needs to be made that breaks with the past and begins a new future for that place.

    That’s only my opinion, though. I’m never going back there, that’s for sure. I’m just concerned for existing and future Exes who might get harmed.


  201. The Oracle –

    I don’t think Paulette Cooper is at all a “scammer”. I think what she did was extremely important. And telling her story, as Tony Ortega has done, is also extremely important because it shows exactly how ruthless and criminal Hubbard’s fanatics can become. It is a warning that serves as a public service to a free society.

    Both of the have completely earned any penny they have earned from their books and interviews and anything else they did to get the word out about the totalitarian brainwashing cult of Scientology.

    You should look for OSA-planted assumptions about other people in your mind, Oracle. I think there are a few in there.


  202. Which is working quite well, I might add.

    If these (chee chalker, just the facts etc.) are the comments being allowed through by Mark, just IMAGINE what the ones say that he isn’t. Whoo doggy! As my dad used to say, frotha foama frotha foama.

    It’s a clear lesson in the reality of the actual dynamics of bullying (the real “weak” amongst us) to watch how such supposedly “powerful” people can get SO rattled and upset by the supposed inferior minority.

    Reminds me of the American Revolution. (insert shit-eating grin here).

  203. “Somehow I don’t think Oracle and Virginia…”

    I also didn’t miss that Chee Chalker wants to position me with Oracle. I get that’s supposed to be some sort of insult, so let me guess – is Oracle supposed to be viewed as a crazy reject and therefore so should I? I bet that’s exactly why that was said that way.

    I have no idea who the Oracle is, or what their story is, nor do I care – in the sense that if they say something that interests me I might respond, regardless. I’m certainly not going to jump on some “the oracle is crazy” bandwagon just because of what some cretin sock-puppet says.


  204. @the oracle

    My screen doesn’t show a reply option for where your (and Alanzo’s) post is in this thread – so I have to put it here.

    You quoted –

    “It has just been told to us that -XXXXXXXX- acted as an internet volunteer for OSA at this time, and that he sometimes posted through a shared account of pseudonyms “RedFred”, “Les Rogers”, and “Freethought2” as well as several others.”

    That’s not something on our current blog, so I figure you must have found it on ARS or the old websites Mike had.

    Terril’s characterization of what we were doing back at that time is the usual OSA propaganda, which he accidentally on purpose always manages to spew for the last sixteen years.

    But I’m sure you figured that out on your own.


    True, in the sense that what we post about now is more of a reflection of our full perspective that we have always had – including the entire time we were in Scientology. This will continue to be more expansive as we go along here, forming an even more complete picture of that perspective.


  205. Rambling? This is how you qualify my communication to you. I have had the decency to respect you enough to respond to every comment you have addressed to me. I could have ignored you.

    You also have no idea how many of my posts are moderated or not put through do you?

    This started with you, when I mentioned that Monique managed to get Temporary restraining order on Miscavige, and that would stick to his record.

    You instantly tried to pull that value from underneath her, by saying I was wrong. You had a huge protest on this. I posted the links that proved I was not wrong. You continued. On and on. The only reason I knew it to be true, is because someone I knew in the justice department summoned up his data sheet and it was right there on it. That is how I got the idea in my head to begin with.

    But you were determined to change the facts about Monique’s value on that, and the meaning. And run the “authority” card in the game. “I have a law degree”. That is how you tried to bully your way through to make your point. Well, I have Google. I also have family entrenched in U.S. Gov for four generations. It is a cult too.

    You say you like to debate. Well, I am not here to debate. Why should I bend for your entertainment? Especially since you are a notoriously bad tipper.

    You actually begin to nudge and bully Marty, “We are waiting”. No regard for his legal concerns and what he should not be divulging on the Internet. You just want to challenge and harass. Like he owes you a bone and you are sick of waiting for it.

    Yes, you bully people. Not a problem for me. I have not complained about you. I have not complained about George Layton. I have not put forth a small movement to get either of you banned or muzzled. I have responded to the heckling because I am a patient person, and have tried to make light of it.

    The people I have issues with are menacing particles AT LARGE. That effect all of mankind. And they are not parked in Marty’s living room. I do not go into Marty’s living room and bitch about his other friends. Because I do not care to knock that out from underneath him. Unless they are like, stashing his silver in their coat pockets.

    You feel fine to knock one of his friends in the dirt, if they can not be friends of yours. That is self centered if not narcissistic.

    And to get on this blog and demand that his wife had no value when she absolutely did, was what? Highly beneficial?

  206. And for someone with a law degree, you should understand the words testimony and witness.

    a formal written or spoken statement, especially one given in a court of law.
    synonyms: evidence, sworn statement, attestation, affidavit; More
    evidence or proof provided by the existence or appearance of something.
    “his blackened finger was testimony to the fact that he had played in pain”
    synonyms: testament to, proof of, evidence of, attestation to, witness to; confirmation of, verification of, corroboration of; demonstration of, illustration of, indication of
    “the work is a testimony to his professional commitment”

    a person who sees an event, typically a crime or accident, take place.
    “police are appealing for witnesses to the accident”
    synonyms: observer, onlooker, eyewitness, spectator, viewer, watcher; More
    evidence; proof.
    “the memorial service was witness to the wide circle of his interest”
    see (an event, typically a crime or accident) take place.
    “a bartender who witnessed the murder”
    synonyms: see, observe, watch, view, notice, spot; More
    give or serve as evidence of; testify to.
    “his writings witness to an inner toughness”

    This is in response your comment, “I never said Marty banned ‘testimony’. I said he banned comments.”

    A testimony can be a comment.

  207. P.S. By the way, U.S. gov is a bigger cult than the C of S will EVER be. And the “religion” status they handed DM with his IRS Offer and Compromise”, was his expulsion from the halls of Washington.

    They will NEVER revoke it. They took the wind right out of his sails and parked him in a corner. And he celebrated the “victory” with his tribe.

  208. My personal single story is that I still love these Artists despite so many Intelligent and sane something something:

  209. Mr. SpocK ? I am such a fan.

  210. Gayle what do you think about me ?

    Go for it

    I am ready for you.

  211. Are you the “weed” guy ?

  212. I get what you are saying. What came to mind is the saying, “Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.” This isn’t a perfect analogy, by far, but it rings true in that people shouldn’t make themselves wrong for reaching for enlightenment. Also, I gained much from my auditing and training in the “cos”, and I’m not going to degrade it or deny it, nor will I say that LRH was all wrong in what he put out. Black and white thinking is easier that nuances of each, but it is inaccurate. It does get down to group think which is always a premeditated fixed viewpoint that spreads like cancer. Ugh!

  213. Lonestar – The official “Ghost” music video “Cirice” (Old English: “Church”) is approaching 10 million hits, up a half million in three weeks.

    I can feel your presence amonst us
    You cannot hide in the darkness
    Can you hear the rumble
    Can you hear the rumble that’s calling

    I know your soul is not tainted
    Even though you’ve been told so
    Can you hear the rumble
    Can you hear the rumble that’s calling

    I can feel the thunder that’s breaking in your heart
    I can see through the scars inside you

    A candle casting a faint glow
    You and I see eye to eye

    Now there is nothing between us
    But now our merge is eternal

    Can’t you see that you’re lost
    Can’t you see that you’re lost without me

    I can feel the thunder that’s breaking in your heart
    I can see through the scars inside you

  214. Thank you for letting everyone know.

    I find it interesting that a “never in” Scientology, is running an Ex Scientology forum, that is a disguise for an anti Scientology group.

    The group has back room chats, where they can talk about other members behind their backs.

    During this little social storm about ESMB, I have been informed by a few people, that new forums are going up. I think one is supposed to be a complete copy of ESMB. They want to see who complains. Laughter!

    To think of all the time and effort and expense some folk spent to get to the top of the Org Board there, to infest the place with OSA staff, only to have a copy, fresh, then another, and another pop up, is hysterical.

  215. Yep. Turns out maybe “Lulu Belle” ain’t such a Belle after all.

    This was posted at esmb earlier today –

    “You know, I didn’t pay much attention to this whole thing when it happened.

    But looking at Marty’s blog the last couple of weeks…

    …I really think that the simple explanation as to what happened with this is Rage Quit.

    His attorneys were advising him and Monique to do something. He disagreed. He got mad. He fired them.

    And that’s really all that happened.

    Sounds crazy, but I know someone like that. Does this kind of shit all the time. Makes rash decisions against his own self interests based on his ego and his temper. ”


    How perspicacious of them. (not)


  216. Actually if you do a study back further than old English you will find the “cirice” actually refers to an ancient goddess. Yep. That’s right. A goddess. The “Daughter of the Sun”. It is also the same etymology of the word “circus”! Lol… If only christians knew.

    Anyway…..Ten million hits eh? Time to celebrate with a ritual….

  217. George is the one that started this thread on ESMB:

    Monique reportedly fires her legal team.
    Started by George Layton, 1st February 2016 05:38 PM

    Views: 55,955

    Replies: 669 (Comments fair gaming, slandering, false reports and denigration)

    Then he is over here accusing Marty of manipulation.

    “How much of what you keep pointing out in others, and then denying that your pointing it out, comes from you? ”

    Honestly George, if Marty was any where near the man you have set him up to be, he would have banned you from this forum. He still lets you run wild here while you work hard even here right under his nose, to knock out his authority and reputation.

    Why the fk would I ever have a victim card to play with you George? Your blatant and willing treason is a screaming siren from 40 blocks away.

  218. You are free to think Alanzo.

    So am I.

  219. And I think for myself. Never asked Tony Ortega to think for me. And I could easily point out that you repeat his platform slogan for his book and his partner.

    I also never mentioned the money he made on his book. You are right, he earned it. And those earning represent it’s real value as a public service.

  220. The post in question quotes an official navy recruiting website. A much better source than some sockpuppet on a blog.

    Note: Hubbard was specifically recruited into the Naval Reserves – which was an intelligence position (and only an intelligence position) back then.


  221. Anyhoo….back to this topic of “are exes crazy”….or not. Hmmmmm…. yeah probably so. I think a metaphor may just be that we’re “Avant Gardeners”. Here are some of us playing a game of tennis…..”I guess the neighbors must think we run a meth lab”….Lol…. I’m having trouble breathing in….

    Damn! Is that a young Bob Dylan keeping score? Lol….

  222. @Lone Star

    Off-topic q – what do you think about the series Outlander?

  223. She entered the Church of Scientology with a hidden agenda. Her interest in finding out about Scientology was pretense. Her purpose was to make her bones as a reporter, by slandering the organization. There was deception from the moment she walked in reception and flashed her pearly whites.She ripped off people’s trust. She entered in an emeny condition backed by ill will. She was putting one over on them. She provoked them with treason.

    It is NOT the single story you seem to see it as, to me.

    All the while people sincerely reached to help her in the only way they thought they could.

    At the end of the day she had less problems with GPM’s than they did.

    And if they paid her enough to live high on the hog for only the next 20 years, they provided for her better than her own parents did.

    You run over my foot in a temper tantrum, after I spit in your face and run down your reputation, and I walk away. You later park eleven Cadillacs in my driveway, and at that time I assure you I can “move on” and I am good with the outcome. Then resurface in the neighborhood a year later and scream about you and your out of control temper, write a book, do a circus tour, and never ever mention the eleven Cadillacs, I am then actually doing a SECOND scam.

    a dishonest scheme; a fraud.
    “an insurance scam”

    “a guy that scams the elderly out of their savings”
    synonyms: swindle, cheat, deceive, trick, dupe, hoodwink, double-cross, gull; informal rip off, con, fleece, shaft, hose, sting, bilk, diddle, rook, gyp, finagle, bamboozle, flimflam, put one over on, pull a fast one on, sucker, stiff, shake down, hornswoggle
    “he was trying to scam residents with phony insurance policies”

  224. That is how I do math.

  225. I’ve never watched it.

  226. You imply I had some kind of OSA briefing on the matter. I can assure you I did not. Never even heard of Paulette Cooper until I was long gone from the C of S. In fact, I have never read anything the C of S has had to say about it. So, I have not been implanted by OSA. Or Tony Ortega. Or Paullette Cooper or anyone else.

    I knew what a scam was when I was three years old, and watched my brother covertly piss in a soda can, then offer it to some little girl to drink.

    I objected then, and I still object.

    Maybe my big implant is the Golden Rule.

  227. According to Gizmo of ESMB….”Marty has always been an asshole. Nothing has changed”.

    Okay. I guess we here are all “asshole enablers”. Lol…. Well, truth be told….I’m an asshole too. Learn it….Love it….Live it!!

    And as assholes go…..We also tend to be Big Shots! Oh yeah….

  228. And the fact that you are here screaming about privileges, and how Marty should be running his blog, after setting him and his wife up to be fair gamed, suggests to me that you had a child hood where you were contributed to, without any regard about exchange, to the point it became an implant.

  229. Is it ironic….or a coincidence that one of my favorite bands is named “The Church”?

    ….and another favorite band is “The Cult” ? Lol….

  230. Not sure of you were on ESMB when this happened. I got declared “crazy” there, after Marc baker fair gamed me for months. Then one day I logged on ESMB to let him know I had driven to California and was standing out in his front yard. He wouldn’t come out and everyone starting posting that I was a stalker and was doing something illegal and he should call the police.

    All I wanted him to do was take it up with me directly. I thought that was pretty sane.

  231. I was banned shortly after. It was the beginning of the end. The idea that I would have the indecency, to plot myself in real life, in front of someone just because they has ripped me apart on the Internet for months, was repugnant.

  232. Firstly, I’m surprised that Mark Baker “fair gamed” you. But, if you did drive a long way to California and stood out in his front yard then yeah, that was crazy.

  233. He had driven to my house.He had been a guest in my house. Of course, that was when I was still living in California and was only 120 miles from him. I drove from Vegas to Long Beach to visit him.

  234. But you see how it goes. When other like to travel, it is a hobby. When I like to travel, I am crazy.

  235. “In the meantime, I’m looking at – you are not going to believe it – a work on the history of feminism and mockery of cult members with some reference to Scientology. Does that have impact?”

    Yeah, that should be interesting. Keep us posted.

    And thanks for the update on your Buddha book.

  236. Sounds like you two were lovers. That leads to all kinds of craziness. Which is normal. In an abnormal kinda way.

    I like to travel. I just don’t get to anymore. All this sanity is driving me crazy. It’s time for me to fly.

  237. singanddanceall

    you do realize, I hope, that is one person’s opinion, and not the opinion of everybody who posts or visits ESMB?

  238. I got the definition from a wiki entry. The entry also stated the video (brilliant,imo) was inspired by the movie “Carrie” in which a troubled soul unleashes her telekinetic powers at a high school prom. Sissy Spacek starred and John Travolta had a leading role.

    The video you posted is kind of a spoiler. I’d hoped that someone would watch Cirice expecting that it was from the 700 Club.

    edit on the song lyric
    Now there is nothing between us
    FROM now our merge is eternal

    A guy in the comments said he’d watched it at least 50 times – I’ve got him beat. The darn thing keeps having an impact on me – you gave me an implant, Lone Star (joke)

  239. Ok. Your cirice post reminded me of it.

  240. posting Ghost lyrics on Martys blog. NOW im fascinated. I wonder if hes aware of the underlying content. Prob wouldnt be happy

  241. Have no idea how it sounded like we were lovers. He was a guest at my home when I tossed a get together for Ken Urquhart. I did not know him, someone else that was invited bought him along.

  242. It isn’t your beliefs that make you a better person. It is your behavior.

    And it isn’t you beliefs that make you a bad person, it’s your behavior.

    A lot of people in this theater need to come off the attacks and defenses, about beliefs, and have a good long look at their behavior. Quit using beliefs as an excuse to harm attack and suppress your fellow man.

    beliefs come and go, change with the wind. But you will be parked here with these fellow people, and your history of how you behaved towards them.

    When decent people who have behaved well, are the subject of slander, false reports and witch hunts, this is a culture that was not worth saving. No matter your beliefs.

    It is not easy to devote two hours of your day, to invest reason, good will, and order into the chaos, with the hopes of bringing people into a symbiotic situation. Then wake the next day to find your good will efforts have been returned with six hours of madness, you need to sort out to make yourself yourself clear.

    You finally wake up one day and realize, nobody will let you be clear.

  243. And there falls the reason you’ve been searching for, in all of this madness.

  244. This is why you find a forum, operated by a “never in”, posing as an Ex Scientology group, when it is full of anti Scientologists. With priest antichambers.


    This is why you find the leader of the Church, hidden under corporate banners and spokespeople and straw hats.


    This is why all training has to be tossed out and certs cancelled across the planet.


    This is why Monique can’t file a simple court paper that explains everything, and have it duplicated.


    This is why Marty can’t write a memoir, (a record of memories), and not have it axed because Tony Ortega feels he didn’t dish enough knowledge reports.


    This is why Hubbard passed away with every single person in the place he envisioned, with every Org designed as he put it. It was all scrapped and so were the people.


    This is why I can’t write three paragraphs, and then have to write a short novel to clarify, all the while getting bashed for over speaking.


    I could go on, and on, and on.

    One thing that has become clear to me. In this arena, the basic command is not “survive”. The basic command is:


    And then you walk into Footlocker to buy a pair of shoes, and everything is perfectly clear. The people know the information, the prices are right on the boxes, the isles are tidy with everything identifiable and labeled correctly. Customer service is always the same. And buying a pair of shoes does not become an engram. Neither a conversation with the salesperson.
    At Footlocker, it is O.K. for something to be clear. In fact, it is the standard. And they aren’t even selling clear.

    They are just well behaved.

  245. And they do not have any problem with everything being very clear.

    Friends with your friend’s worse enemies? Nothing can be clear.

    Even my dogs don’t have a problem with everything in the home being very clear. Where they sleep, what their job is, what time they eat and who wanders where in the yard. They have no problem with me being clear with them. I do not even have to speak. Eye contact, or I open a gate, a door, set down a bowl, lay down their blankets, they just move with it in harmony.

    If I go to the grocery store, see five apples cost 5.00, hand them a 5.00 bill and take five apples, it is that simple.

    Not like handing someone 500.00 for a check sheet and have them send you a paperback. And that goes on. It just can not be clear.

    And, I really can have a clear head, when I figure out I am parked in a universe, where the basic command is, NOTHING CAN BE CLEAR. And, it is a universe that has been created.

    For me to win, all I had to do was figure out the game. I didn’t have to make myself clear. All I have to do for that, is walk into Wal Mart, and conduct a simple exchange.

    But figuring out this game, and this particular parallel universe, brings a kind of power of me, to create distance.

    Marty is very clear 24/7. Has no problem letting others be very clear. And there are a handful of others.

    But once they step out of this arena, this entire circus tent will collapse in a vacuum, and become another ribbon across the sky. To bring clouds, storm, fog, rain and hail. Whatever forces and conditions, contribute to nothing being clear.

    And the power of nature will convert this purpose, into a highly beneficial element.

    And we will all meet on a path that brings us joy. And glad for one another.

  246. Looks like an interesting series. I’ll give it a try. Always looking for good series that are new to me.

  247. Lol… If I had been active on ESMB when you stood in his front yard calling him out I probably would’ve told you both to “get a room”.

    But I wasn’t being totally serious about you two being lovers. Just J&Ding. My specialty.

  248. Yes I know singanddanceall. I mostly just wanted to send Gizmo a little “love”. Lol….

  249. Hi Cat daddy – Well, I’m kind of a weed guy, if experimenting with psychedelics in the 1970’s makes me that.

    I’ve expressed respect and admiration for Mark many times on past topics. Here I find it humorous the way fascinated makes his/her remark. fascinated takes issue with Mark saying he’s never delighted or dampened any audience and throws a left jab saying “Keep em comin Marty”. Mark bobs and weaves and counters with “Are you delighted?”

    I realize that the last few topics have given many people a chance to air their grievances, and that’s a good thing. Taking my comment here on its own, someone could make the point that I don’t take anything seriously.

    Isolated comments made by people in the past or even currently can be brought up and shown as representing a very different person to what that person really is. I’m not saying anything new, just that when emotions run high shit happens.

  250. Jeez – I opened the door for a troll. Sorry, Marty

  251. He’s fully aware due to discussion about lyrics several weeks ago. He metaphorically worships with us. Lol…

  252. So singanddanceall –

    How does “”Marty has always been an asshole. Nothing has changed”. do anything constructive for Ex-Scientologists, who by the way, include Marty Rathbun?

    The church of Scientology engages in this kind of useless and even destructive denigration of Ex-Scientologists – especially when it is constant and unceasing as it is on ESMB. Why should this kind of rude insult be allowed to be so rampant on the Ex-Scientologist Message Board?

    You do realize that this is a standard OSA dead agent line on Marty Rathbun, don’t you?

    What if Gizmo was challenged to say something worthwhile and constructive by the moderators on ESMB, instead of this kind of disrespectful and ad hominem personal attack? He could still voice his opinion, he just would not be allowed to be this disrespectful, in violation of ESMB’s own rules.

    It is against their rules, as I have shown on my blog.


    So why do you think it was allowed on the board?


  253. George Layton

    MODERATOR REJECT: Flunk number two on troll test. Three strikes and you are out. Don’t be a loser.

  254. “OT powers” actually do exist in Buddhism.
    But they are not the purpose.
    The purpose is happiness and freedom from sufferings, for self and others.
    When working on that path, spiritual powers arise spontaneously.

  255. George Layton

    Moderator Reject: A troll, and stalking pig. Get lost coward.

  256. EC pretty quickly moved Gizmo’s, BunnySkull’s, and someone else’s posts to the other thread out of public view. Probably because I mentioned it here. Lol….

  257. Mark C. Rathbun

    By the by, Lulu’s explanation is a public relations line (translation: a lie). Not only is OSA Nouveau unoriginal, they can’t lie straight in bed.

  258. Thanks. You come across as a caring person. Ken Urquhart is a beautiful man with a beautiful mind. He was Hubbard’s closest confident for many years. I was very grateful for the time he spent in California, to hear many amazing stories. I was able to take Hubbard out of the Scientology arena, and view him as a person.

    He wrote about power and flowing it. But he could not do it himself. I see that as a major situation causing that bought today’s conditions to the place they are. When he kicked off, he left a lot of people hanging.

    After everything Karen De did for him, he should have set her up in a Swiss Chalet with a lifetime income. And that is just the first one on the list. He left Ken hanging while he was still alive. Ken never said this, not sure he saw it that way. But I could see it. Hubbard kicked off and left everyone dangling in the wind. He may have left some policies about people and their positions, but you can see for yourself that was a very fragile legacy.

    He wrote, “Responsibilities of leaders”, and got that word drilled in. There were no leaders in Scientology. There were bosses and workers. And that would imply a pay check.

    Marty was the first bonafide “leader” in this arena. But I have an extensive education in social studies and history. And view this within the conditions of that understanding. A leader prompts people to think for themselves. To act for themselves. he does not think for them. That is a boss. A Lord, a Master.

    Not to imply that Hubbard did not lay out methods that assisted people in thinking for themselves. he did do that. For me, anyway. But on the other side he insisted on thinking for them. Can’t say I blame him on that now. Must have been scary.

    He did not flow power to his own people. He sold knowledge, and flowed authority. And he retained the rights to knock the authority out from under anyone, anytime. Which means the authority he did flow, wasn’t even real authority. People could have it or nor, depending on his whim. And while it looked like he was running can haves, he was running a lot of can’t haves. If he had left anyone with some stable power, there never would have a power struggle.

    Not that Ken ever said anything of these things to me. But from listening to many of his stories I came to see things this way. So his company was highly beneficial.

    But who gets involved in Scientology because they are looking for fortune, or servants, or aids, or servants, or chefs, or body guards, or slaves, or stewards? So most people were not paying attention to obtaining power, until they realized they were fucked because they actually had none. Today, one man in that arena holds all the power.

    But if you went that path for knowledge, and won some, that is an invisible power that can be used long beyond this time frame in this universe. For many magical times when knowing, will mean everything in the moment. When, whether people live or die, will hinge upon your know. Your awareness of conditions and forces. When victory or defeat, will hinge upon what you know. When the stakes are much higher than you have never known in this life. And all of your power will hinge on what you know. What you can see and far you can see.

    And that knowledge, is a power Marty managed to shift out of those buildings and from underneath the castle, from a distance, and litter all over the streets. And 2000 years from now, a civilization may rise or fall, upon the knowledge of someone, who bothered to pick up a piece of that litter, and come to know something pivotal about their fellow man. And you may be or not be, depending on that moment. Those days are coming.

    I spent my life watching this civilization go from rotary phone to Internet.Just watching the communication lines go down.

    Things “matter” or not, according to which direction you are looking. As in, past present or future. I know many people, do not see themselves in the future, and are stuck in a view of them self somewhere in the past. But they do lose that “self” in the “past”. No matter how they cling.

    There are higher powers than Hubbard, or David Miscavige. There are bigger forces than a CMO staff member. There are more valuable treasures than a paycheck or a body guard. There are other things worth fighting for, than a , whatever this theater has become. And when I fight that fight, it will be a fight that matters to everyone. Not a special interest group. And that fight will come. And in that moment, everything I learned here now, will matter. And it will matter greatly. And the who, that knows the most, will hold the most power. And those that know the least, will become collateral damage. Because that is the nature of this universe. Even now, from Washington Power Central, right down to the sweat shops in India. Gandhi freed a nation, because he had the best communication skills. No piece of knowledge, can be under estimated in value.

    Side line knowledge that you put together yourself, is the most valuable. You expand your know.

    Never leave your people hanging. It’s wrong.

    Never think you have a leader, when you have a boss.

    Never think you are a soldier, when you are a slave.

    Never think you own a building, if the deed is not in your name.

    Never think it is all about yesterday, when the fight is still ahead.

    Never think someone you harmed is in your past. They will always co exist with you.

    Burning books and valuable information, only serves to keep you ignorant. And subject to the decisions of others who know more.

    You do not “come back”, knowing nothing. If that were true, we really would all be here on equal terms. What you know, travels with you. Even if you think you do not know it. It will become an inherent part of your senses, beingness, perceptions, choices, and decisions.

    Don’t fixate on collateral damages. It was a conscious choice.

    There is nothing noble in a fight that is an unworthy cause. Ethnic cleansing is a most unworthy cause.It is not even done in the animal kingdom.

    And other such information and knowledge you can paste together from the pieces into new wholes, will be yours alone.

    Fare well.

  259. I think that the changes she made moving these things around and keeping them out of search results are good.

    But when you become a member on ESMB, does your membership come with the same old cyber-bullying feature that everyone used to get?


  260. I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

    Given their history of denigrating you day after day – even after all that you have accomplished as an Ex-Scientologist – I would certainly understand if you were not.


  261. Mark C. Rathbun

    Yeah – well, just as you know Shelton was practicing the art of deception when rendering his psychological evaluation (lying actually); I happen to know Lulu ain’t calling the shots. But, I’m fine on ya’ll assigning virtue to those souls. I’m just housekeeping.

  262. Well I think, just like you did in the Ken Dandar affidavit where you named names – and in a very detailed way – laid out the whole program to corrupt the judicial system in Pinellas county, you could do the same here.

    I mean why not?

    When you say “I happen to know Lulu ain’t calling the shots”, what makes you say that, exactly?

    It’s clear to me that ESMB has run OSA lines on you and other critics since its inception in 2007. A message board on the Internet is the cheapest and most efficient way to infiltrate the “enemy” for the Church that they have ever had. And “Anonymous” was tailor-made for “suitable guises” and every piece of spy-craft that Hubbard trained you in.

    So what, specifically, do you know about this?


  263. Mark C. Rathbun

    In due time. Why don’t you talk about Shelton?

  264. Hi Curious – I think there is a definitional problem here. A joyous and serene monk or nun might or might not be considered by a person to have OT powers depending on a subjective definition. “OT” is a term used only in scn and seems to mean most anything. “Operating Thetan”??
    Spiritual powers is a little bit more specific. I’ll think about it – smile

    P.S. First thought – there is quite a bit of difference between Eastern and Western thinking

  265. Hi Curiosus – I think there is a definitional problem here. A joyous and serene monk or nun might or might not be considered by a person to have OT powers depending on a subjective definition. “OT” is a term used only in scn and seems to mean most anything. “Operating Thetan”??
    Spiritual powers is a little bit more specific. I’ll think about it – smile

    P.S. First thought – there is quite a bit of difference between Eastern and Western thinking

  266. I have.

    I’ve written a blog post about him and chased the guy all over the Internet in almost every facebook group and message board he and I have access to.

    He’s ignoring me like The Plague. 🙂

    I’ve been around long enough to see a lot of patterns. And I’ve put together a lot of puzzle pieces.

    There’s a lot more to be told.

    I’ll be here.


  267. Mark C. Rathbun

    I know. A lot of submerging going on these days.

  268. Here’s what Gerry Armstrong says about Chris Shelton.

    What is your take on this?

  269. Terril Park

    Alanzo | July 27, 2016 at 10:56 am |
    We all change after Scientology, Terril.

    We decompress, learn knew things, evolve, grow, forgive and forget.

    I do not believe that Virginia’s views – especially on LRH – are the same today as they were when you described them.

    Spoken like the liberal we both are.

    From being the most fundamentalist scientologists I ever knew,
    they now say that their time in CO$ was spent on spying on CO$.

    Mike trained to at least class 3 and joined GO. Virginia reached
    OT 7 and was SO.

    You want more data just ask.

    I have no interest in Virginia’s views.
    They have always been about persuading others to think like them.
    They are also extremely paranoid. See below.

    One of their websites wished to collect data about suing Freezoners. I was the first on this list.

    Their questionnaire below re Alan sent broadly.

    Alan C. Walter

    Here is the original questionnaire, without my additives, this was taken
    over the phone.
    It is apparently getting broad public issuance.

    As you will note there are no mentions of Mike, Virginia or Jontu.



    Postmark dated October 3rd

    Ron’s Org
    104 S. Freya Street
    Spokane 99202
    (On goldish paper)


    We are collecting additional information on Alan Walter.
    We would appreciate if you would respond to this survey at
    ron… or at 800-237-8010 all answers will remain proprietary
    and strictly confidential.

    1. Do you know of any unlawful sexual activities Walter has been involved in
    that haven’t yet been reported to the police or proper authorities or
    matters that have been reported and have not yet been acted upon?

    2. Are you aware of any unsatisfied client of Walter that has not come out
    in the open for fear of retribution?

    3. Has Walter openly stated to you how much money he has spent to keep other
    fields and groups operating at no more than fledgling states?

    4. Do you know of any suspicious or fraudulent activity Walter is now or has
    been engaged in. Has he ever tried to recruit you or influence you into
    infiltrating other independent groups in the US or abroad?

    5. Do you have any information about Walter attempting to sabotage Ron’s org
    or any other independent field practitioner?

    6. Any other information you have on Walter that you feel should be made

    Thank you very much for your time filling out this survey.

    Together we will make the independent field the only safe space to create OT

  270. Terril Park

    Note that I’m well known for connecting people up to non COS
    tech terminals for the last 16 years. |Not a well known OSA

    “Terril’s characterization of what we were doing back at that time is the usual
    OSA propaganda, which he accidentally on purpose always manages to spew for the last sixteen years.

    But I’m sure you figured that out on your own.”

  271. Mark C. Rathbun

    As with most of his stuff I got about three paragraphs into it and got dizzy and blew.

  272. I can finally say that I am done with all things Scientology and Ex-Scientology. Absolutely done. D-O-N-E. What a nasty den of vipers. The whole mess. Still ins and Exes alike.

    Of course that doesn’t mean that I think everyone is a snake. Not at all. But there are just too many, and I’m tired of being around the toxic venom.

    I hope and wish all the best for each one of you. Even those of you that I have very little respect for at this time across the various forums and blogs. I do hope each and everyone will find peace one day.

  273. Mark C. Rathbun


  274. We never sent out that questionnaire. We never had any kind of address in Spokane. We never had a ronsorg hotmail email address or an 800 number.

    That was an OSA op.

    Probably by this guy since he was based out of Spokane around that time.

    As I said – Terril Park prefers to lie about us in very specific ways. This is one of them. He has done this for sixteen years despite numerous corrections on our part.

    This is how he insists that the world must view us – just like OSA has done for the same time period.

    Y’all do the math.

    As to being a *facilitator* for connecting up people? Sounds like a perfect position for an OSA agent.

    What do you think Mark?

  275. Mark C. Rathbun

    Sounds like an op. I think it would take effort not get along with a guy like Terril.

  276. Thanks for the input Mark, appreciate it.

  277. Terril is more likely a dupe. I’ve met him a few times and he really is quite a pleasant chap but I suspect someone has been pulling his strings for a long time. When I first moved to the UK, Terril called me and offered me Class VIII auditing in the Freezone and told me that Marty didn’t have the ‘real OT Levels’ and that Pat Broeker had run off with the real ones but they could now be delivered in the Freezone. There were a couple of plants on my lines at the time in and around the UK and I can’t remember all of their names but one of them was a chap Marty and I met in Hamburg who later showed up unannounced at my house with more ‘alternative OT Levels’, this time on a memory stick he offered to shove into my computer. I had a lot of fun hanging out with Terril and got to see the super-sekrit alternative Bridge to OT 22. I VERY much doubt he’s an agent – more likely he’s got an agent or two feeding him bullshit and hasn’t realised it yet. Meanwhile it seems he’s doing what many ex Scientologists do while they’re figuring out how to fit back into ‘normal’ society – the only thing the cult teaches people to do – ‘regging’

  278. Right behind you darling. I’m staying around long enough to see justice fully served then I am gone too. This shit isn’t worth saving anymore.

  279. * Correction. ‘Regging’ isn’t the only life skill people walk away from the cult with. Most ex Scientologists are pretty adept at brainwashing too which is why it’s such a dangerous environment to remain in once you finally make it out.

  280. Map of where Freya road is versus Dave Lebow’s Falcon Industries business started in 1995 while he was working for OSA.


  281. Everyone is just trying to make their way. No need to apologize for having lived. Everyone has thought, said and done things they outgrew. We grew up together. And we still are.

    Terril managed to hold communication lines together between people in the Freezone through thick and thin. For over a decade. Long before there were forums, blogs or Facebook.

    I do recall having a conversation with Terill, where he raved about you being the one that discovered (i may be hazy) seven bulletins missing from a vital information policy letter, that had to do with solo nots, ??? that was a real game changer. Also you being one of the first people to stand up and speak out. In the context of that conversation he held you in high regard as an intelligent and insightful person.

    It seems to me you have both been pioneers and influential people and you have more in common than not.

    He wrote a brilliant paper that he delivered to a congress in London, on Scientology. That was recently. He has had a very creative and artistic career in interior design. I think he did the OEC FEBC when he was involved with Scientology. He is the subject of one documentary. A doting father, and an excellent cook. He just hates to be out ruds with anyone. Is hugely sensitive. Widely underestimated.Very humble. Very curious. He is married to a very exotic woman from the South Pacific area who is hugely spiritual and very religious. They opened their home to university students for years that needed a place to stay so they could get through college. They really are good will ambassadors.

    There is just so much more to both of you, than this arena’s madness.

    You could Email him and see if you can two can figure out why the distance between you, and focus on your value to one another as the allies you seem to be. Towards the same goal. He is always happy to talk to people. And I know he is burdened with some health challenges now, so he will probably welcome the company and distraction.

  282. Hi Richard,

    To be more specific, here are some of the results of the Samatha Meditation technique :

    (1) Super-normal Feats
    (i) One can become many and vice versa
    (ii) One can appear and disappear
    (iii) One can go through walls and mountains
    (iv) One can go in and out of the ground as if it is water
    (v) One can walk on water as if it is earth
    (vi) One can fly though space
    (vii) One can go to the moon and sun
    It is almost certain that (iii), (vi) and (vii) are feats as a result of out-of-body experience (O.B.E.).
    (2) Divine Ear :
    The yogin can hear sounds of divine origin e.g. admonition or premonition from his spiritual guides. He can hear sounds and voices far away as well as sounds of creatures nearby e.g. the noises of worms in his intestines.
    (3) Reading into Other People’s Thoughts :
    He can directly tune in to others’ thoughts like a radio signal. Whatever you think, goes into the ether and the receiver just tunes in.
    (4) Recollecting Previous Lives :
    One can recollect details or scenes from one or many previous lives.
    (5) Divine Eye
    (i) One can see the passing away and rebirth of a being.
    (ii) Clairvoyance: knowledge of the future and far away events.
    (iii) Knowledge of how one fares after death according to his good or bad karma.

    That is just a sample. The buddhas have many other abilities, such as the freedom from automatic reincarnation, emanating bodies, etc. Great masters such as Shantideva could really fly through space, etc.

    According to the Dalai-lama, super powers are not the purpose. Such a purpose actually hinders true spiritual improvement. But these abilities anyway arise along the path.

  283. I had thought of that actually and was going to mention it as the other option but decided against it because for many years now he has been doing the job of an OSA agent towards us, strings or no strings. In essence he has made it *his* purpose so he might as well be a card-carrying OSA agent (if there was such a thing) in that respect.

    Lol re “regging”.

  284. Totally agree. Seen in it fist-hand in all branches of the “freezone” and other flavors.

  285. Wow and beaufitul, Curiosus – Someone on a blog once said “Most of us were intellectual adolescents when we entered Scientology, having little or no background in science, religion or philosophy.” As a young man entering scn I fit that category. However, I’d always had a sense that some of these abilities exist, or at least a longing toward them.

    After scn I did some study of American Indian lore in books by Tom Brown, two of which were “The Vision” and “The Quest”. Tom’s teacher was an Indian sage named Stalking Wolf who earned his name by stalking and touching a wolf.

    Maybe the author’s writings are embellished, but I’ll refer to two of the abilities you mention.
    One can appear or disappear. In a non literal sense, a highly trained acolyte like Tom might be in front of you and then “disappear”. A gaze into the distance, a sigh, a momentary lapse of attention or some such and he would be behind you.
    One can go through walls and mountains. Again in a non literal sense, an advanced Indian sage could rise above even “mind over matter”. No physical obstacle would be insurmountable. For example, they could cross a dessert, pehaps taking weeks without food or water, a seemingly impossible feat.

    It seems serious matters are being resolved below, but maybe we can continue our conversation here. As often occurs on this blog, perhaps another would like to join in.

    My initial thinking above about OT is that Hubbard said he’d applied Western science to Eastern philosophy, thus producing a fast track to Enlightenment which he redescribed as Total Spiritual Freedom. Operating Thetan is a redescription of sage.

    The discussion of the pros and cons of scn can go on and on (and on) – laughter. You’ve offered many things to ponder here. Thank you, Richard

  286. Hey Lonestar – After watching Cirice for the umpteenth time, it occurred to me that I should go watch Teen Spirit by Nirvana. It might make you feel better. smile

  287. Terril Park

    From Alt Clearing Technology archives. Virginia admits posting
    about Alan’s alleged sexual activities. The women allegedly concerned,
    wouldn’t publicly identify themselves.

    >From: “Virginia”
    >Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 3:09 AM
    >Subject: Alan???
    > you know, a while back some women made
    >allegations about your sexual activities, and this was told to
    >and then XXXXXXXXXX communicated it to me, pointing out that it was a
    >situation that should be known.
    >I presented the information, as given (minus names), for private review
    >my private list. I of course had 100 percent certainty that there were
    >several lurkers on the list, who would be very quick to relay this to
    >That certainty was quickly validated by you in fact, as I recall. I
    >was fairly certain the first appearance of this, presented to me,
    >information, should be in a more private forum such as my list, as
    >to a public discussion group such as ARS or ACT.
    >I could have been wrong in that assumption, perhaps you wish me to post
    >publically now?
    >Have the women confronted you directly on these yet?
    >If not, perhaps public posting might be just the thing to bring them
    >forward, so you can confront them re: their accusation, and they you.

  288. Excepting the part about Terril raving about me and the six month check (which he did do prior to the end of 2000) –

    I couldn’t disagree more with your assessment of the situation.

    Terrill has never once, in sixteen years, contacted Mike or I to handle said “out ruds” he supposedly hates so much.

    As to your suggestion, he has already stated, right here in these comments, that he has no interest in my views and that his beef is that “They have always been about persuading others to think like them.”

    Mike said about that – “You mean like he’s been trying to do about us for sixteen years?”

    I have always said that we are kind of like a divining rod for bringing out the hypocrisy present (and hidden) in supposed scientology-related do gooders. Looks like it still holds true with Terril.

  289. Hi Oracle – Above you say “Never think someone you harmed is in your past. They will always co exist with you.”

    This is from the book “Alcoholics Anonymous”

    Here are the steps we took which are suggested as a program of recovery:
    8. Made a list of all people we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
    9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
    10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

    Any thoughts on this?

  290. chuckbeatty77

    Really appreciate hearing your unique views, and am glad there is a forum for you to comment like this one.

    Thanks again for your book, I’ll continue reading it.

    I appreciate hearing all your views, and people’s reactions and thoughts here on this forum.


  291. See how he changes the subject when he gets shot down in flames on falsely accusing us of mailing out a “rons org questionnaire” from Freya road in Spokane?

    That was why OSA did that op, because Mike and I had already publicly denounced Alan Walter for a number of reasons (most of which I still stand by) repeatedly, plus talked in a complimentary way about our then brief knowledge of Rons org, so OSA obviously figured they could stir the pot by making up some interrogatory about Alan Walter and making it look like it was from us.

    And here’s Terril still doing the exact same thing fourteen years later.

    This is not someone who wants to or is willing to actually “handle” anything, contrary to his supposed public persona.

    The brainwashing is thick with this one.

  292. To Mark –

    Terril Park is obviously going to continue to do what he has done for sixteen years. When cornered, he brings up some other out of context crap he likes to promote to people to have them decide that we’re “bad”.

    I answered one last time, his last change of subject when he realized his promoting the OSA op (Frey road questionnaire mailing) as being us backfired.

    I don’t feel right though about allowing (by even responding) this importing of Terril Park necrophilic crapola over from the ASC onto your blog.

    My apologies.

    Even though I’m sure he’ll continue to come up with more implications and misrepresentations no matter what is pointed out?

    I won’t be responding further in any way here.

  293. singanddanceall

    so does that me you are not going to do the White Rose thing anymore?

    I do not know know what you mean by : “This shit isn’t worth saving anymore.” ?????

    I would be disappoint if you stopped being the White Rose. We all have are voices, somehow that we can.

  294. Thanks for the OT VII whistle-blowing Virginia. Your testimony along with Jason Beghe’s videos and the ‘Truth Rundown’ were instrumental in helping me to make the decision to blow from Flag when I was hiding out from the MAA in Clearwater and lookin’ at stuff I wasn’t s’posed to 😀

  295. Ha! Teen Spirit. Yes it does make me smile. Perhaps I could pop in at times and be the “off topic” guy and leave the Scientology stuff to others. As you know the subject is madness. Speaking of madness….Can I play with it?

  296. If only Alan could see his immortality in this arena, today. His legacy. His sexual exploits kept him alive longer than his mission work. I guess the missions are all gone.

    He would be in the floor!

  297. I meant, on the floor, With laughter!

  298. You made my day Sam – thank you SO much for telling me that.

    Even though I don’t know you, your kindness and strength come through loud and clear.


  299. responding further about him…I meant to add.

  300. You should! I’d be sad to not see you around, you’re pretty funny.

  301. Two people in my family have been long time members of AA. In both cases, I would say it saved their life.

    I think the above steps can very well bring closure . Making amends is not the low toned activity many think it is. I think. I’ve done it many times and it straightens out the math. You can always out create your mistakes.It restores arc to the other person, yourself and the world.

    It is high crime per Hubbard to have an ARCXen field. If the Church had reached out to people that were harmed, or mislead or mistreated, we would have a different landscape today. You see the Mormons, they have some unusual ideas. They are not resented. They are respected. It isn’t really your beliefs that make you a better person, it is your behavior. It isn’t your beliefs that make you a bad person, it is your behavior.

    Ill will towards the Church of Scientology have cost it billions and billions of dollars in revenue. Yes, I absolutely think amends were order. If you have never read Mick Wenlock’s story, it is one of those stories that you read and wonder, “Why in God’s name hasn’t someone from the Church stepped forward to do something about this?”

    They issue statements like, “He’s bitter”. Which is the worse P.R. in the world. If you are so great, why is one of your people so bitter? Now it is, “They are bitter”. (That’s our product).

    It has become a real, “Every man for himself” group, which means it really is not a group at all. It is a third dynamic, that thinks it is a fourth dynamic, where it’s every man for himself, and has shape shifted into a self interest group. And I think it is largely due to the fact, that they will never reach out to anyone, unless choked , to make up for any damage done.

    Number 10 above is simply self correction.

    Basically, you are taking responsibility in the above steps. Admitting cause. Changing the outcome to a more positive outcome. Helping someone who may have had bad memories of you in the past, now have good memories of you.

    I think you can also, ” pay it forward “. On that dynamic. For instance, if you checked out a library book when you were seven, and didn’t return it. And that was 50 years ago. You can go to a library donation site and make a donation. Put something in the future, and fixes the math.

    Karma is biblical knowledge. “Reap what you sow”. You are going to reap by your own efforts, or someone else’s. Fixing mistakes , making amends for damages, repairing situations, it just keeps puts in charge of the harvest.

  302. I’m sure we’ll hook up after business is taken care of – Marty and Mosey always know where to find me. And thank you again. I already had one foot out the door with the Qual Sec trying to convince me I would die of some morbid consequence if I didn’t immediately route onto OT VI but I saw how people sacrificed their entire lives to be eternal slaves to Flag once they signed up for VII and I was starting to wonder… well WTF really 🙂 Your evidence that the six month checks were a scam helped me put the rest of the pieces together and the next thing you know I was escaping in my car with my 3 kids to Tampa in the middle of the night.

  303. It’s OK sweetie pie. We all understand you’re scared. You stay snivelling from behind that sock like the coward you are and I will try hard to muster up some respect for you while you I watch the real men take care of business.

  304. singanddanceall

    same here. Unfortunately it has been a few long years to get some of me family to see the same. Some are out, some are not.

  305. I have never heard of Terril regging people or asking them for money.

    It could be, that perhaps he was trying to be a friend, in the way he knew how to be. And this was backed by good will and good intentions and care for you.

    Anyway, if he didn’t impress you then as having any value , I can assure you in other situations, he would be the one to give you the shirt off his back. If you needed it.

    And in those conditions, his purposes might be more relevant. Someone who had been a good friend, should always be honored as such. Even if you have no have use for them. That doesn’t take away from them.

    I do know him to be a constant friend. Once he is your friend, that is a solid situation that can not be rocked. And I consider any friend like that, one of the rewards for living.

    There was a long time, where, when people were leaving the Church, or even thinking of leaving the Church, Terril was the person they contacted. And this went on for years. He has helped a lot of people.

    I know he is having this little fuss with Virginia. But that history goes way back before both of us and there is a lot of omitted data, even between the two of them. It is one of those things, “You had to be there”. And even then, with the OSA madness and all that was going down, who will ever know what happened?

    The fact that he is still defending Alan Walters after Alan Walters has passed and gone, is evidence of what kind of friend he is.

    If you had had friends like this around you all of your life, you would not be angry at anyone right now.

  306. QED. If it’s not Terril spouting the OSA crap from the boards it will be some other poor dupe that doesn’t know any better. Try to focus on the organ grinders rather than the monkeys is about the only practical advice I can offer after six years or so of being pelted from the peanut gallery x

  307. I couldn’t agree more Alanzo. Very well said. Thank you.

  308. Hassan’s remark is very real to me. When I first got into Scientology I had a strong suspicion it was a cult and I didn’t like a lot of Hubbard’s writing. But what got me to stay and try it was how much I liked the people I was meeting in Scientology. They really resonated with my genuine interest in the spiritual aspect of life and helping beings. Hence my nick name, which I took from Jason Beghe’s youtube interview.

  309. Well as is noted, this is from the archives. Before there was any kind large movement out here, people were coming out of the Church, and, finding a way to stand a way from that madness, and stand on their own feet and face that situation. There was very little group support in the way of a political movement. And people were still feeling their way. How to translate that culture into a culture out here, and there was little to hang it on.

    Everyone was wobbly and trying to get a foot hold. When people were not on the same page with the Church, they had to find a way a method to get on the same page with others.

    There were even power struggles out here. From the above data from the “archives” it seems Virginia had information that others did not. Perhaps things that were told to her in confidence. We can’t see from the clip what Alan did to threaten people or cause protests about him. Or what he possibly did to Virginia to cause her to take a stand.

    It was a burden to think with traditional ways to find they did not work “out here”. Then find they really did not work “back there” either.

    As far as “being duped”, I should be way beyond that by now, and I was seriously “duped” only months ago. So, you still have to keep the trust going or you have nothing to take away. But it is easy to be betrayed. All that means is that you mistrusted. But you still learn from that.

    I am grateful for the Freezoners that were out here for decades preserving what they could. For the people that came out here and carved routes through the jungles. Stood on the front lines. Carried the torch. I know the kind of burdens you all carried, each and every one of you.

    The Independents that came out and laid cement on those dirt paths, so these ways and paths could not be covered up.

    Some people made themselves burdens and distractions. Some people made themselves solutions and eased the weight for everyone.

    All of these people were pioneers. People who chose to think for themselves. If we were more integrated in this society, there could a history book. A list of those. These are the people that always make the difference. And Hubbard himself was one of them.

    There was on some level, a civil war within the culture.

    And you and Virginia, were on the front lines. So was Alan. Nancy Walcott, R.I.P., a Joan of Arc. Phil Speckler. Pat Krenick. Ralph Hilton. Even this fellow that did the first BBC telecast, Don Larsen. There were many.

    One of the things that disturbs me about this entire “anti anti anti” movement, is these people came out here when the foundation was already laid down, over the blood and bodies of many. And use it as a platform for abuse. Dishonoring the human sacrifice and toil it took to even build that platform. Especially when it is used as a platform to convince everyone, they should regard themselves as idiots. The only reason they have a platform to judge from, was built on the backs of human sacrifice and HEART. People that CARED about the people in front of them.

    Every action people took inside the Church, outside the Church, to make the world a better place, to care about others, with whatever tools they have, mattered and still matters. Not only to people in that arena, to people everywhere. Today a farmer reaches in the Earth to plant a seed somewhere, it matters to all of us.

    So let’s build some platforms where we can honor one another for our true meaning. Not the meaning ill willed and ignorant and short sighted people assign to us. That is NOT our true meaning. And these purposes to degrade us are backed by ill will.

    There is much honor and value in our lives, and how we have touched others. We are just going to have to understand it, and acknowledge it, without the benefit of standing on a stage and being handed an award. The orchestrated applause. The little statue. True honor comes from the people you have helped and your peers. Not spectators and critics.

    So, we need to grant that one another. These people that work to make nothing of us, sneer at us or ridicule us. Cause distances between us. These are not our peers. They have not walked in our shoes. They have not cared as we have. They haven’t carried a torch from their kitchen to their bedroom. At the end of the day it was them that didn’t matter very much. Not us.

    A handful of Indians, and a few concerned citizens, saved the Native American culture from complete mass genocide. Extinction. Sure, there was collateral damage. But they do not sit around the campfire taking turns slapping one another and then themselves. On command.

    They honor one another for the meaning in their lives.

    And we could learn this from them. Which puts their meaning into our lives, and makes them immortal. As we can pass these lessons down.

  310. And if the people in this video look strangely Japanese to you, it is now known these are decedents of Asian Immigrants. As are the peoples of Mexico and all Native Americans.

    Sometimes it takes centuries, for true understandings and value placement.

    But we do not have to fall into that fold.

  311. Yesterday, Tony Ortega led his cult into Hubbard’s underpants and they parked behind his balls. That is their place value.

    That has nothing to do with me, or you, or us.

  312. Miscavige has led his cult into Hubbard’s scribbles, attitudes and ser facs. That has nothing to do with me either.

    I belong three feet behind Hubbard’s head. If I belong anywhere in this theater.

  313. Michael Fairman

    I just found two cents and here there are. When one can hear the stillness of Nature, one can stop yapping.

  314. Mark C. Rathbun

    the man who talks doesn’t know. the man who knows doesn’t talk.

  315. It is a well-known OSA ploy to use sock accounts to harass and needle ex Scientologists. If you are genuinely afraid of your identity being known then posting publicly puts you at further risk – so what are you even doing here? In either case my personal plans, ‘White Rose’ or otherwise, will remain personal. Any ‘je suis’ promotion that has been created as part of our SCIENTOLOGY KILLS campaign can be downloaded from the ‘Flying Ducks’ Facebook group or the blurb website – meaning y’all don’t need no stinking leaders to simply print out the postcards and books and hand them out in the areas around your local orgs.
    This is the last time I will answer any of your sock posts. If you don’t have the common decency to use your real name then I am not going to extend you the courtesy of responding.

  316. * Disclaimer. I am not implying you are an OSA agent I am merely making a point. I know a few people in the ex Scientology community who have drawers full of smelly socks too.

  317. Please tell me, Gayle: How do you feel about the consistent “sarcastic condescension” that thoroughly pervades ESMB and the Bunker expressed towards anyone who expresses the slightest disagreement with the critic approved single story narrative about Hubbard and Scientology ?

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  318. Re: hooking up, sounds like a plan. Mark knows my private email address, just don’t give it out to anyone else.

    That’s so cool that you “escaped” – so brave!



  319. I hear that.

    And I like the organ grinder metaphor – have used it myself on occasion to express the same thing you are. It’s a good one.


  320. Very strange that nobody seems to be able to read and duplicate the papers Monique filed. Maybe they never understood anything Hubbard wrote either.

  321. Oracle, Oracle, Oracle. I will confess to skipping over most of your posts. But I am glad i took the time to read this one. You put the matter in proper context as only someone who remains 3 feet behind it could. Thanks.

  322. Marty, you said:
    “Not to mention the non-linear abstraction processes that scn processes can elicit – which if you delve very deeply into Zen, you will find to be the very purpose of koans. ”
    I didn’t understand the statement, but I don’t want to attack it. I rather find it interesting.
    Could you help me and elaborate a little bit about “the non-linear abstraction processes that scn processes can elicit”.
    I am still using processes but without any organizational bondage (official or inofficial).

    This non-linear abstraction is a term I didn’t come across so far.

  323. I was unfamiliar with the term sock puppet. Wiki has an extensive entry. My take is Buyer Beware. I find singanddanceall’s comments here and elsewhere as sincere and interesting.

    I couldn’t find j&d

  324. Hi Richard,

    I am also interested in linking western science with Buddhism.

    The Dalai-lama too. In the 1980s he launched the Mind and Life conferences, yearly encounters between leading scientists and Buddhists. For example the Dalai-lama is quite interested in quantum mechanics. He wrote that within one or two centuries, scientists should discover a scientific explanation for the phenomena of reincarnation.

    More recently, he requested that high level Geshe examinations include a scientific module (Geshes are graduated monks). I have a friend who visited recently a Tibetan monastery in India, and who told me that indeed in monastic cells, there are Tibetan books about western science specially edited for monks.

    About the relationship between Scientology and Buddhism:
    According to Hubbard, Buddhism is workable but very slow. There is also the repeated study of KSW that is implanting the idea that there is no other bridge than Scientology. Eventually Scientologists consider often Buddhism with some contempt, something quite outdated.

    Actually there are other workable bridges, Buddhism is an example of such a bridge, fully fledged, without any missing level, that allows reaching states similar to Operating Thetan and beyond. There are countless success stories since about 2500 years.

  325. I’m in the middle of moving right now. Will forward my details in a month or two once we’re all re-settled.

  326. Thank you Perry, for your kind acknowledgement.

  327. I wondered the same thing even when “in” the church, let alone now.

  328. Mark C. Rathbun

    non-linear – free of time-space construct we learn to apply automatically to perception, thinking, logic.
    abstraction – a general idea or quality rather than an actual person, object, or event : an abstract idea or quality

    Does that help?

  329. Sure, no problemo.

  330. Piggybacking on hobson:

    Child Survival
    Nutrition and Food Security

    UNICEF works to give kids a healthy start.

    Good nutrition is the bedrock of child survival and child development. Well-nourished children are better able to grow and learn, to participate in their communities, and to be resilient in the face of disease or disaster.

    Yet malnutrition is linked to nearly half of all childhood deaths under 5 — stealing about 3 million young lives a year. And for millions of children, chronic malnutrition will result in stunting – an irreversible condition that literally stunts their physical and mental growth.

    The first 1,000 days from the start of a woman’s pregnancy to a child’s second birthday offer a window of opportunity for preventing undernutrition and its consequences. UNICEF targets this period with support for breastfeeding, nutrition-rich foods for infants and micronutrient supplements.

    By focusing on these first 1,000 days, UNICEF has helped cut the number of children badly affected by stunting by nearly 100 million since 1990.

  331. What disturbes me is giving ritualistic meaning to all that

  332. Ron wanted more of himself, he won.

  333. That is beacause your healthcare costs are double as that in my country and we got EVERYBODY covered, even the homelessTRUFAX

  334. Oh my God you are evolving

  335. I the end you have to live your life for yourself and especcially for the little one.


  336. A message board for ex Scios. is great in theory. However ESMB is terrible. I was very happy to be banned from that bigoted, hateful sight.

  337. Hey Marty: Communication is the eternal solvent I heard somwhere (friendly jab)

  338. It wants to be, but it isn’t

  339. You lot, I mean Scientologists and Ex scientologists anf freezoners, Anons, Old guard protesters, May I be so bold to include you in a true CAUSE


    One of our proud Ambassadours: Audrey Hepburn in a rare 1959 interview speaking Dutch

  340. What is an Organ Grinder Methaphor ?

  341. “I’m probably not making much sense”

    Namasté (I say that at the end of my weekly Yoga class) Trufax.

  342. Oh my God I forgot about this gem.(that is sarcasm for those who do not know)

  343. singanddanceall

    some of us are still UTR and not declared. We have different strategies. Since I’m UTR and not declared, why I figure I can do my part by getting scientologists to expand their viewpoints as Hubbard said to do at Tone 4. Using Hubbard’s words to still in’s tells them something and allows me to play a fine line, it’s not easy.

    Anyways, when I get questioned like why am I not on course, or getting auditing, why I say I’m applying LRH finance policy of don’t go into debt, use credit as a second cushion. So the reason why I’m not on course is because I’m paying off my debts. I also say to still in’s that I have been reading philosophy. I like to tell them about Aristole’s Ethics on Friendship. I simply explain them a little to the person. Here it is and I let them ponder it:

    Telling a scientologist I am learning about philosophy is safe ground, as Hubbard mentions Aristole and he is not a psych, all safe.

    So while folks like you are on the outside protesting, I feel I can enter into scientologists mind from the inside a “virus” you might say, I can introduce looking outside the box of scientology while still being not declared.

    So far it has worked for me in that I’ve gotten a few out, but that is not me only, it’s only because the person did decide to look a little further on the internet and eventually read blogs like Tony Oretga, Mike Rinder, Marty, ESMB, etc. And therein lies some of my problem, I can’t speak too freely with details else I be found out.

    Anyways, there you go. I would love to be at the front lines protesting, but I don’t think it is wise for me just yet. Too many people still in to think with.

    Take care, Sam.

  344. @Marty
    Thanks, that helps.
    It’s how we spirits usually work when not sitting in the limitating constructs and holding on to identifications and “beliefs”.
    I think some of DN/SCN processes can be detrimental to this state. And some can be beneficial but it then also depends on the right timing and the state of the person who runs (or is being run on) the process.
    Any form of organisation with vested interest is of course detrimental to higher states of counsciousness of individuals. Individual insights will be adulterated by the base tone of the group or its main leading characters.
    This said, many of Hubbards work was of some good use, but the idea of higher states “off-the-peg”, packaged and presented the way it was done, was absolutely the wrong approach.
    Also, too many wrong case indications, wrong tech, wrong points of attack, missing insight and knowledge while pretending to “have it all figured out” is what up till now produces the beef today. Amongst Scientologists and its critics.

    At the same time, for many – like me – Scientology did elicit some kind of “peak” or “ascension” experience which makes it hard for many to easily let go off the whole subject. For some it’s more important to re-align their insights with other techniques and works of wisdom than to forget about it all to gether.

    I have seen that this is what you are, or at least for some time have been, doing with your blog: helping people to connect the dots.

    All best,

  345. Sleeping is a ritual. Making toast is a ritual. Brushing your teeth is a ritual. Cooking an egg is a ritual, taking a bath. These rituals have meaning also. They have ritualistic meaning. Any time you have bothered to cook an egg and eat it, you have honored a chicken somewhere. I think honoring another human being is something we can become accustomed to.

  346. Yes – We think alike. I’ve read of various Buddhist leaders who take an interest in scientific inquiry.
    Super powers are attainable and fun to fantasize, but projection to actually acheiving them is out of the now and a set up for failure. Reading Stephen King is fun and fantasy into how Wierd can it get – laughter

    P.S. If Miraldi looks here, Dr. Tan Kheng Khoo has a long write up on Adyashanti at the site above.

  347. Just the inconvenient Facts

    No thanks. UNICEF is a corrupt org.,5427779&hl=en

    If you can get a hold of its recent accounting you will see that the criminality has not abated.

    If you can get a hold of its recent accounting you will see that the criminality has not abated.

  348. Laughter! From an old rock and roll song – “I just dropped by, to see what condition your condition was in.”

  349. Thanks much, Richard. I’ve only read part of it so far, but what a great write-up about Adyashanti. Thanks to Curiosus too for the link to what looks like a great website to explore.

  350. christianscientology

    Hi Sam – Great post! Changing things from the outside is always more difficult than doing it from the inside, if you are looking for a solution where everyone wins.

    Unfortunately I got myself declared and expelled before I realised that just pointing out the outnesses in Scientology was not enough to bring about change. That was back in the ‘60’s’.

    Anyway all has worked out for the best because I am now UTR in the Christian Science church. The similarities between Scientology and Christian Science are quite mind boggling when you understand both subjects. Basically what is missing in Scientology is THE LOVE OF GOD and what is missing in Christian Science is THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE HUMAN MIND that is why I call myself a ChristianScientologist. Maybe I have to take over the First Church of Christ, Scientist in Boston before I have enough ‘clout’ to take on the Church of Scientology.

  351. Hi SKM,

    Good post. Just wanted to comment on what you wrote here:

    “At the same time, for many – like me – Scientology did elicit some kind of ‘peak’ or ‘ascension’ experience which makes it hard for many to easily let go off the whole subject. For some it’s more important to re-align their insights with other techniques and works of wisdom than to forget about it all together.”

    I would add that not only the personal insights but some of the techniques of Scientology could be added to other paths. I’ve watched a lot youtube videos of various spiritual teachers working with their students to help them become free of the “pain body” (Eckhart Tolle’s construct – which I believe is virtually the same as the reactive mind); or free themselves of “velcro thoughts,” as Adyashanti describes it, and in scientology would be called stimulus-response reactivity.

    When I’ve watched sessions where the student is struggling and having to keep coming back for the same problem/issue, I can’t help but think to myself how an auditing session directed at the heavier incidents/issues at least (by doing a prepcheck on it, as an example) would handle them so much faster and more certainly.

    Basically, I think scientology has some valuable contributions to make to the field of spiritual growth and that it’s a mistake to brush it off (not saying you are) because of its outpoints – gross though they may be – and assume that other paths can’t be improved by it, just as other paths can improve upon scientology. My 2 cents. 🙂

  352. christianscientology

    And this is amazing for those that do know!

  353. Michael Fairman

    Yes it is Mr. Cat, if it comes from rational, thoughtful, understanding people whose purpose is to edify and not destroy.

  354. I’m gonna fight ’em off
    A seven nation army couldn’t hold me back
    They’re gonna rip it off
    Taking their time right behind my back
    And I’m talkin’ to myself at night
    Because I can’t forget
    Back and forth through my mind
    Behind a cigarette

    And the message comin’ from my eyes says, “Leave it alone.”

    Don’t wanna hear about it
    Every single one’s got a story to tell
    Everyone knows about it
    From the Queen of England to the hounds of hell
    And if I catch it comin’ back my way
    I’m gonna serve it to you
    And that ain’t what you want to hear
    But that’s what I’ll do

    And the feeling coming from my bones says, “Find a home.”

    I’m going to Wichita
    Far from this opera for evermore
    I’m gonna work the straw
    Make the sweat drip out of every pore
    And I’m bleeding, and I’m bleeding, and I’m bleeding
    Right before the lord
    All the words are gonna bleed from me
    And I will think no more

    And the stains comin’ from my blood tell me, “Go back home.”

  355. To the young and the young at heart….a little magic power makes it better than it seems….

  356. Hello Marildi, nice to hear from you again.
    I agree totally.

    There are many teachers I’ve seen on you-tube who are running in circles with their students, where some easily administered repetetive process could bring relief and insight to the student.

    The problem with Hubbards legacy is that it is overshadowed by a great amount of hypocrisy. It’s not that none of his tech works – of course it does – it’s only that he pretended to have it all and that his tech would produce ‘stable’ ‘end states’ for all cases plus the organisation and policy he put in place which will fight to protect his statements which makes it hard, currently, to adopt bits and pieces of his tech and implement it in mainstream teachings.

    At the other hand, there is so much tech existing that is really working outside of Hubbards Universe. Many Scientologists will dismiss working tech because they have been indoctrinated and have agreed to not look at other sources.

    My standpoint is that of course Hubbard did a great deal of research. With many people who helped him along the way. The biggest mistake was to entitle himself as the sole origin of the tech and the monopolization of his findings.

    It’s people who left the church who leak Hubbards tech into the mainstream, for the benefit of a larger percentage of the population.


  357. Lone Star, I used to enjoy your comments on ESMB. (I’m mostly a lurker there.) I understand the “nasty den of vipers” feeling. Not saying that about anyplace or anyone in particular—just the general scene.

    But what prompted me to comment was “Seven Nation Army.” I wanted to give you kudos for that. Rock on.

  358. The danger of a single story. New Scientology opening in “Harlem”.

    This upper East Side area is not known as Harlem to New Yorkers. It’s called the Upper East Side. I would be very surprised if anyone living in New York City considers this area Harlem.

    The video and public relations patter, the line is, “We are here to help people”, and features an introduction to the new emeter.

    How much does one of these cost? The story is, “We are running a can have”.

    The other story behind this, is that DM has made much ado, poured resources and money into this upper east side location, to prop people up to run can’t haves on the community.

    Nobody seems to notice. Fine. Made me look at something else.

    A civil war has been going in the Scientology community for years.

    No report on it. The focus shines on INDIVIDUALS, (The bitter defrocked that must be addressed in the media), and the line is, “It is just FEW bitter…”.

    No. That is not the truth. There has been a CIVIL war in the Scientology community under David Miscavige. And it has been going on for years. It is not “few bitter”, is has been A CIVIL WAR.

    A civil war is a violent conflict within a country or a culture fought by organized groups that aim to take power at the center or in a region, or to change government (The Sea Org in this case) policies.

    No report. Only, “A few bitters.” That has been the single story.

    The true story is that Scientologists have been in a civil war, that has produced mass exodus and mass expulsions. Huge shifts in “policy”. (Sec checks that include questions like “Have you had bad thoughts about Tom Cruise?”). Huge collateral damages.

    In the beginning, the focus was on the Government (The Sea Org) and it’s commander, (David Miscavige).

    And SOMEHOW over the years, the people got turned on one another, on this side.

    Now the focus has become to harm attack and suppress Scientologists.

    So, the ethnic cleansing campaign is now being run from BOTH SIDES, to fair game anyone that is a Scientologist.

    And this is how DM had managed to our ride the civil war, with out ever being acknowledged for what happened under his regime. And “fix it” so the people he pretends to serve, have eventually turned one another. And even filed under “leaders”, that demand they harm attack and suppress THEMSELVES through ridicule and humiliation.

    This is the REAL story.

    The only person out here for the last few years to call attention to David Miscavige has been his father.

    Everyone else is attacking nebulous non entities. “The Church”..”Scientology” ( As if it were a human being). Why not say, “Mathematics destroyed me”. “Scientologists”. General general general
    ideas, not terminals.

    The civil war is over.

    Now it is just human beings out here damaging one another. Miscavige manages to stand on the upper east side and call it , “Harlem”. Present himself as a savior to the community where even there, on the upper east side, people can not even afford an emeter.

    Some of you all come over and take a swipe at Marty, like you have made a big impact on this theater. Tony Ortega propping up some Texas lawyer like he was a make or break point in this civil war. Two people that have never even been a part of this culture. “Volunteering” as baby sitters. That is truly hallucinatory cause.

    The civil war is over. Not sure why Tony pretends he has a legion underneath him that is going to take the Int Base. Turn the hand of Congress.

    Miscavige didn’t slide through this because he had more money, more staff, more resources. He did not have armed forces, or even allies. Castro took Cuba back from the U.S. and held it together as a unit for decades as the two most powerful nations in the world sought to pull it from beneath him. The U.S. and Russia.

    Doubt if anyone will bother to speculate. Really, even cares.

    But, if you are feeling drained, spent, worn out, mistrusting, resentful, displaced, confused, lost, or any kind of emotional flurries that do not qualify as “winning”, I thought someone should point out that you have been through a civil war. And, it is over now, except for the friends, family and neighbors you see harming attacking and suppressing one another.

    Now, there is going to be Revolution. And the revolution will not be televised.

  359. Thanks, SKM. Nice to read your posts and have some comm with you again. 🙂

  360. Path of Buddha – I think I’m getting an experiential understanding of what you said above about OTVIIIs cleaning themselves out. Your explanation was quite clear. I’m speaking of myself here.
    From studying a cross section of philosophical veiwpoints and discussion here and on earlier topics, I find myself with cognitions stacking up, so to speak. It’s nothing bad.
    On an earlier topic you mentioned on OTVIII you were blowing tons of charge. I might take that to mean that you were viewing a wide range of ideas you had. Since the Case Supervisor essentially said continue, you were off to the races. In that case the C/S might have served in a very broad sense as a teacher by acknowledging your thoughts and cognitions so you could move on.
    Here from a general understanding of data overload and more specifically from auditor training, I’m aware of bypassing a floating needle and overrun. Above SKM mentions scn pretending to have it all figured out. This also applies to other philosophical approaches. I realized something I said above, not really important, was just parroting something from nondualism. So in a sense I’d adopted a single story.

  361. Oracle, you said, “This upper East Side area is not known as Harlem to New Yorkers. It’s called the Upper East Side. I would be very surprised if anyone living in New York City considers this area Harlem.” This isn’t some trickery by David Miscavige— the area is definitely known as Harlem to the people who live there. I’ve lived in NY for 35 years, and as long as I’ve lived here, the Upper East Side has stopped well before 125th Street. (It used to be 96th, but I’m sure real estate agents have tried to push that to 100th or so.)

  362. The above comment seems to be the last one posted by Pip Threlfall (“Christianscientology”). To all of you who got to know him through his comments here, I heard from his wife today that Pip had a heart attack yesterday and died. She asked me to let “Marty’s blog” know.

    Pip, my friend, I’ll miss you and all the blog exchanges and emails between us. May you “rest” in peace.

  363. “Above SKM mentions scn pretending to have it all figured out. This also applies to other philosophical approaches. I realized something I said above, not really important, was just parroting something from nondualism. So in a sense I’d adopted a single story.”

    Good insight and nicely said, Richard.

    Besides scientology, there’s also a single story about Hubbard himself that has been passed around among his critics and become their single-story narrative about him. If that weren’t the case, I highly doubt so many would have come to the same conclusions about him and even used the same phraseology person to person.

    Recently, I read the full write-up of Hubbard’s “Affirmations” or “Admissions,” after I saw a post about them. I had already seen some of them quoted from time to time – the more sensational ones that support the single story. But there are others he wrote down that are rather positive aspirations, in my view, and indicate some of the basic intentions he had for himself as well as his aspired attitudes towards others – none of which fit in with the single story, IMO. Here are a couple excerpts:

    “You never speak ill of another because you are too powerful and may curse them. You love everyone. Even when you use force on people, you cannot hate them. You have no hate or jealousy in you. You are not in contest with anyone. God and your Guardian and your own power bring destruction on those who would injure you. But you never speak of this, for you are kind. A sphere of light, invisible to others, surrounds you as a protecting globe. All forces bounce away from you off this.”


    “To survive you need only do these things – be patient, calm, beautiful. Write what you yourself think is good and worthy, govern yourself as a powerful force. No human being has authority over you. No human being’s opinion has weight with you.

    “You are not possessive. You are not jealous because you are too strong. People are much afraid of what you think of them, what you may do to them, therefore you must be kind and courteous to them.”

  364. Mark C. Rathbun

    Rip Pip

  365. Love it. 🙂

  366. I just now listened to “The Navajo Healing Song”, “Cheyenne – Dances of the Wolf” and “Lakota Lullaby”. Thank you for posting this.

  367. I’m surprised. Laughter! I lived in Harlem West. 116th and Bwy. We always called the East Side and it was all Latino. So people did not think of it as Harlem.

    if you were talking about it while you were located downtown, you called it the Upper East Side. But I came up from the East Village. So I talk from that location when I say the Upper East Side. Not the area some people refer to in the 80’s.

    Anyway, it turns out we are both right. Because now that area is known as Spanish Harlem:

    “East Harlem, also called Spanish Harlem, within Manhattan Community Board 11, is bounded by East 96th Street on the south, East 142nd Street on the north, Fifth Avenue on the west, and the Harlem River on the east.”

  368. So, technically, the new Org opened in Spanish Harlem.

  369. And I guess you can get by calling it Harlem. But if you lived in Harlem, sorry, you did not consider Spanish Harlem, Harlem. I know there was a song with the words, “Spanish Harlem”. But I do not recall anyone every using that term.

    Of course, Carly Simon in the West Village and called Greenwich Village. I also never heard anyone living in new York call the Village, “Greenwich Village”.

  370. So right, Miscavige opened an Org in Harlem. It’s just not a black neighborhood.

  371. You wrote: “the area is definitely known as Harlem to the people who live there”.

    I seriously doubt if the people living in that area, east of Lexington, which is now known as Spanish Harlem, think of themselves as living in Harlem.
    And I seriously doubt if anyone living in Harlem proper, west of Lexington Ave, see that area as part of Harlem. When I lived there most of those people on the East Side didn’t even speak English.

  372. “It has one of the highest concentrations of Puerto Ricans in all of New York City”.

    “According to a 2010 study, the number of Asians in East Harlem nearly tripled between 2000 and 2010, largely due to Chinese people moving to East Harlem.”

    This is where Miscavige put the new Org. Is this the picture you get when you see headlines that says he opened an Org in Harlem?

    I really have to ask.

  373. I don’t think I’m tripping:

    “Harlem has long been synonymous with African-American culture.”

    Point out one establishment in this article that is in Spanish (a.k.a. East Side) Harlem.

  374. Do you see anything on this web site at all that celebrates Spanish Harlem?

    I love it that he opened an Org in Spanish Harlem. But there should be Spanish translation on the web site right?

    Tour the Church of Harlem web site:

    Images of Spanish Harlem:

  375. He bought two Latino Community leaders for the grand opening:

    Mr. Raphael Benavides, President of the East Harlem Merchants Association and New York State Assemblyman Robert Rodriguez.

    This is not the “Single story” it appears to be.

  376. Not the one you and David Miscavige are pushing.

  377. It was Thursday at 2:00 today. Wonder how many e meters they sold last week? They were on special for 5K at Christmas.

  378. Fox news calls it “East Harlem”, NOT Harlem. And they have a Latino reporter there to cover it. The spokesperson in the video though, for Scientology Harlem, states, “It is in the heart of Harlem”. Blatant lie. Now why on Earth would that man think he is in the “heart of Harlem”? Was he drilled on this?

    Listen, I am overjoyed this place is where it is. But if he CARED about these people would he have a 5K price tag on a meter? These prices on courses? Why can’t he BRAG loudly that he opened an Org Spanish Harlem?

    So, I think this all just fucking P.R. smoke and mirrors.

    Why doesn’t he just park a Tiffany’s Jewelry store next door while he as it?

    Yes, people need help they need answers. They do not need more ILLUSION. What is pissing me off is knowing that he is EXPLOITING THESE people to safeguard his position. And painting himself as a humanitarian.

    Him and Tony Ortega have dome NOTHING valuable for New York City. NOTHING.

    Miscavige closed three missions there running the finance police all over the place. The Org is empty. Celebrity Center is empty.

    Do you have any idea how many unpaid and unrewarded and unacknowledged people he piggy backed on to open that place? So he could show up as the town celebrity?

    There is a WHY behind him not opening an Org in Harlem proper.

    THIS is how things went down when Scientology was in Harlem proper:

  379. He moved it OUT OF HARLEM! Then had a “Harlem opening” for the new place he found out of that neighborhood, and into Spanish Harlem.

    And he is trying to make it look and sound like he is in Harlem.

    He is exploiting black people in a Spanish neighborhood. he is also doing it for applause and more donations and to safeguard his position as an executive. It is all about HIM.

    No, this is not the “single story”.

  380. Mark C. Rathbun

    If they competently and thoroughly delivered TRs0-9 they would be providing an invaluable service to the community at a reasonable price.

  381. Two months ago he chewed me out for misduplicating one of his viewpoints. We talked it out and became friends, as far as internet friends or entities go. A fond memory.

  382. Well, here is the thing. Marty, you spent two hot minutes on the radar out here before there was a HUGE grass roots community united beside you. And it was on FIRE.

    Miscavige spent MILLIONS to ensure you would not motivate those people. He spent millions to ensure nobody that was not paying him taxes, would be able to use Scientology for any life improvement.

    If he cared about people, if he cared about Scientology, he would have picked up the phone and called you and said, “Marty, I fucked up. I want to own it. I see what you are doing. I see your promise in helping people. I see how valuable you are in the grass roots movement. What can we do for you? Do you need a building? Materials? Can I loan you some staff? Can we send some money?

    David Miscavige has never been a grass roots guy. Geeze Christ he RPF’ed a staff member at St. Hill because the guy didn’t jump out of his seat when Dave entered the room. He is not a grass roots man. He isn’t even a black tie man. He isn’t even a family man.

    It repels me that he is trying to position himself as having a foot in the grass roots arena. He will run over any grass roots man that offers to help his neighbor and cuts Dave out of a commission. He will pay big money to prevent people from learning knowing and using Scientology, if it is not on his terms. The PURPOSE of the Church of Scientology was to HELP PEOPLE. He has altered that for thirty years demanding that Scientologists live to HELP the CHURCH! As if the Church is a “in critical condition P.C.”. he won’t put in exchange with people that have dedicated years of their life serving that institution (instead of the other way around, which is appropriate). He tosses 25 – 30 year Sea Org veterans in storage containers in the desert, then parades around East Harlem like he is some kind of humanitarian. He has crews of beggars begging full time, he doesn’t even feel compelled to put in exchange with those people except for little status pins.

    I don’t need to oppose him, I have managed to get around him. I think it is an injustice that he puts out false reports by illusion. Nobody voted for him. Nobody is happy throwing money at the doors to keep them open. The Church is supposed to serve the community. People aren’t supposed to devote their lives to the Church, unless it is serving the community. And the Church of Scientology serves itself. And not even the staff and members that built it. It has become a demanding bottomless pit where everyone loses except two men. What kind of system is this? It is lower than communism. There is one King, and everyone else is a subject. Except for the Cruise Muse. Scientology boomed when it was a grass roots movement. It hasn’t been a grass roots movement in three decades.

    Anyway, that said. I was the one called into CC Int to pull seven ministers out of South Central and get them on the purif at CC INT for “P.R. reasons”, and who worked to get the donations to pay for it can you believe that? CC INT couldn’t give it for free, but wanted the people, and asked Scientologists (through me) to pay for it. Why? I wasn’t really told. Maybe you know or heard something about it. I just had a problem with why they wanted to stick them in a sauna. For crying out loud how about a few sessions? It was like they wanted them steam cleaned before they mingled.

    I guess a few hung around because I have seen them on promo pieces. Two finished super power. I wonder if someone picked up where I left off and has to run around begging for accomos money. I actually wonder if they have never been told, it costs money and how much. I could not find one current price list anywhere on the Internet for any Org. It is almost as if it is now confidential data.

    By the way, K.S.W. is green on white. An administrative policy. Hubbard says to toss those out when they stop serving a constructive purpose.

    HCO PL 13 Mar 65 What Is Policy?:

    “POLICY is a rule or
    procedure or a guidance which permits the BASIC
    PURPOSE to
    “Following policy is
    a matter of grasping situations and knowing policy
    well enough to
    apply the right policy to the right situation …

    “Ideas or procedures
    that were unsuccessful in assisting the basic
    purpose of an
    individual, species, organism, organization, become
    bad policy.”

    “Periodic sweep-outs of
    antiquated and didactic laws (rather than general
    concepts and sub-purposes) must be undertaken by a being,
    organization, group or race or species.

    However, such an action must be
    carefully done, selecting only those laws or rules which came
    into being because of pressure groups or infrequent enemies or
    which were derived from no experience.”

    Miscavige runs a pressure group. And I have no idea how he came up with “Golden Age of Tech” on his no experience in tech.

    I am including the remainder of this so people have the full context.


    “And before throwing any policy away one must carefully examine its history to see if it is still restraining an enemy or forwarding some

    “Mismanagement or misgovernment of self, an organization, group or
    state would then consist of failing to forward the BASIC
    PURPOSE, not grasping and specifying SUB-PURPOSES, and not
    experiencing and formulating policies to strengthen successful ideas
    or actions that forward the Basic and Sub-Purposes and impede
    ideas or actions that retard them and not recognizing actual
    enemies or oppositions or planning and carrying out successful
    campaigns to handle them. Failing in any of these actions the
    individual, group, organization, state, civilization, race or
    species will falter, fail and die.”


    On the admin scale. purpose is way up top. Ideal scenes is way down south and that is what Miscavige pushing. Not purpose. The “purpose” under him is to have an ideal scene! Ideal Orgs! So, even on Hubbard’s terms, David Miscavige IS mismanagement and misgovernment.

    You see a lot of people flee a country when the government becomes oppressive. And I think it is the right thing to do. Unless you want to go all commando like Fidel. Easier to relocate. Shift position. People run from under the rain too. It is natural to shift space to better conditions.

    What you never see except where Miscavige is concerned, is the government tracking stalking and attacking those people after they have left. And demanding their identity. Their culture. Their traditions. Their beliefs. Their language. And basically, demanding of them to leave their life on the front yard of the place they left. Fidel Castro had more mercy than that. Once people escaped to Miami, he let it go. they were able to build Little Cuba.

    Anyway, I hope all goes well in Spanish Harlem. For the people. Too bad Penelope Cruise was “too catholic”. She could have been at the grand opening in that deeply Catholic community.

  383. Thanks! Laughter!

  384. N.O.I. guy had two simple questions and got referred to “Special Affairs”.

    I would have just answered the questions. He wasn’t asking for the OT3 materials. Geeze Christ I would have sent someone for take out so we could eat together. The man is CURIOUS. Why would anyone run a can’t have on a simple answer? The staff seemed withholdy as hell.

    Maybe the guy is racist, according to certain N.O.I. teachings. But wouldn’t you rather have him hate on you for six months than have to co exist with those staff for a day? Sometimes hate feels good. At least it is emotion. It is a force. It is a truth on the table.

    I think he had the best TR’s. He even had to educate the staff member on public right of way, in a good way, after she tried to boot him off the sidewalk. His ARC was definitely higher than hers. Even became aware of her buttons with the camera and curbed his mission to accommodate the fact that the camera knocked her tr’s out.

    Geeze Christ he walked in curious, got kicked out of the building and then FOLLOWED and they tried to kick him off the sidewalk.

    Is it just ME? No pun intended, but this seems very black and white to me.

  385. I must have some point. The N.O.I. has made more auditors in the last five years than the Church of Scientology.

  386. Miscavige doesn’t attack for N.O.I. for being Independents.

  387. I am grateful for that.

  388. In fact, I’m good with all of it. From one viewing angle, “nothing is wrong”. And it seems as if everything turned out, the way it should have, all things considered.

    The whole of India, peasants that had only been subjects their entire life, stood beside one man and moved Britain off their backs. I saw your promise and potential. So I had hope. But Ghandi did not have to deal with the treason and enemies from two sides. And we are not in India.

    I wish, you and your family had been somehow compensated for all of the “win or die in the attempt” you laid down. But the mere suggestion that you might have, tossed the majority into a frenzied witch hunt, led by someone who had never done anything for these people but re stimulate and rehabilitate their losses. That was hard to watch.

    But you have many good friends. And you are loved by the people who are capable of loving.

    The Dianetics knowledge is in the hands of Nation Of Islam. And that is where it should be.

    Israel has an AO, because you took the heat while they organized. And they are not the only ones.

    You did matter to a lot of people and you will continue to matter through out time. The treason, sadism. Will not. This culture that we waded through out here, and tried to help, people floated up or down on that will and purpose.

    I have said it before, at least in exploring Scientology, you find out who you really are. The hard part, is finding out who they really are.

    That, was my crossing 110th Street. But I am home free.

    Thank you.

  389. Mark C. Rathbun

    From Tao Te Ching:
    Success is as dangerous as failure.
    Hope is as hollow as fear.

    What does it mean that success is a dangerous as failure?
    Whether you go up the ladder or down it,
    your position is shaky.
    When you stand with your two feet on the ground,
    you will always keep your balance.

    What does it mean that hope is as hollow as fear?
    Hope and fear are both phantoms
    that arise from thinking of the self.
    When we don’t see the self as self,
    what do we have to fear?

    See the world as your self.
    Have faith in the way things are.
    Love the world as your self;
    then you can care for all things.

  390. I recently came across the “Louis Theroux Hypnosis” documentary. Apparently it’s big business in Las Vegas with sold out crowds attending to gain self awareness or other reasons. One of the hypnotists offers a “Millionaire Mentorship” program. Elron would be a big star there if he were around today. From glancing at the site above, he left no stone unturned and was considering a multitude of aspects of the psyche. For better or for worse, Las Vegas would be too small a game for him.

  391. Path of Buddha

    Hi Marildi!

    “God and your Guardian and your own power bring destruction on those who would injure you. But you never speak of this, for you are kind. A sphere of light, invisible to others, surrounds you as a protecting globe. All forces bounce away from you off this.” L Ron Hubbard.

    You have quoted something from Hubbard which has connection with the ancient philosophers like Plato and some neo-esoteric ones. In fact, you could also say that this quotation has roots in the idea of magic. It was widely held in the middle ages that the sphere of light was a theta like substance. Plato had the original idea but it was hidden by the established Christian church for centuries. The personal guardian angel also had a corresponding personal devil. God, the guardian angel, and the devil are but two sides of a single coin. This idea was probably expanded in the OT VIII narrative in which Hubbard declared himself to be in the role of the mythological Lucifer. The sepent imagery used by Hubbard in the narrative is the symbol of earthly power. Jesus the pedophile mentioned in the narrative is taken from a gnostic source to illustrate the idea of the power of Isis.
    It has given me great relief to understand the depth and variety of Hubbard’s occult forces and influences as he rarely gave credit to his real sources. By my estimation, he studied the occult from about 1926 to 1949. You can find references to the occult even in Diantetics with his love of the Aescalapian school of thought and medicine. In essence, Hubbard is descibing the root of magic but takes the creative credit.

  392. Path of Buddha

    “The serpent imagery”

  393. My quote was:
    “Also, too many wrong case indications, wrong tech, wrong points of attack, missing insight and knowledge while pretending to “have it all figured out” is what up till now produces the beef today. Amongst Scientologists and its critics.”

    Add to this the erroneous PTS/SP tech and how easily it was implemented to create a bubble of zealots and the deadly mixture is complete.

    Here is the rest of the quote(s)

    BTW. I can discern Hubbards positive traits and accomplishments.
    It’s not my intention to say ALL he ever did was wrong, evil or of no use.


  394. I’m curious: how long ago did you live there? Not trying to pin you down to an exact year, but, say, more than 35 years ago (before I arrived)?

    I’m not questioning your knowledge based on your own experience. My main point was that the area where the org is has never been called the Upper East Side by anyone I’ve known in my years here. (And, interestingly, many of those people have lived in the East Village….) The 96th St. boundary was critical to apartment hunters, and only landlords and RE agents would push the border.

    I did know that further east, Harlem is/was known as Spanish Harlem, but I since I had no idea where that began, and I saw a number of businesses in the area around the org with names like Harlem This and Harlem That, I came to the conclusion that “Harlem” was safe enough for 125th between Fifth and Madison. Apologies to any residents of Spanish Harlem who’ve been offended by my assumption.

  395. Hey George!

    Thanks for you comments.

    I’m happy for you that all your scholarly endeavors have given you, as you put it, “great relief to understand the depth and variety of Hubbard’s occult forces.”

    Out of curiosity, have you carried on with your research in this area since writing your book *Lucifer’s Bridge* – and, if so, have your views changed in any particular way?

    Also, you wrote that Hubbard “rarely gave credit to his real sources” but, rather, “takes the creative credit.”

    I always got that what he took credit for was taking the knowledge of others and distilling it down to the most key datums. And with regard to his own creativity or originality, that would have been in developing, with the help of others, practical applications of that distilled knowledge – namely, the tech.

    “Acknowledgement is made to 50,000 years of thinking men without whose speculations and observations the creation of Dianetics would not have been possible.” (*Science of Survival*)

  396. “From glancing at the site above, he left no stone unturned and was considering a multitude of aspects of the psyche. For better or for worse, Las Vegas would be too small a game for him.”

    Agreed. Too small a game and not the same basic purpose. I found part 6 of 6 , the last 7 minutes, of Louis Theroux’s documentary “Hypnosis.”

  397. I said, “This upper East Side area is not known as Harlem to New Yorkers. It’s called the Upper East Side. I would be very surprised if anyone living in New York City considers this area Harlem.”

    You said, “This isn’t some trickery by David Miscavige— the area is definitely known as Harlem to the people who live there.”

    Every reference to this area on the Internet and on maps and in any available history says, (In one way or another) “East Harlem, also colloquially known as El Barrio and previously as Spanish Harlem, is a neighborhood of Upper Manhattan, New York City roughly encompassing the area north of the Upper East Side and East 96th Street up to about the 140s, east of Fifth Avenue to the East and Harlem Rivers.[2] It lies within Manhattan Community District 11. Despite its name, it is generally not considered to be a part of Harlem.

    The neighborhood is one of the largest predominantly Latino communities in New York City, mostly made up of Puerto Ricans, as well as increasing numbers of Dominican, Salvadoran and Mexican immigrants.”

    Note: “it is generally not considered to be a part of Harlem.”

    Not sure it matters what we think. Neither of us seem to be tracking with the rest of the team. It is not considered “The upper East Side”. It is also not considered , “Harlem”.

    I can say, I did say, ” I would be very surprised if anyone living in New York City considers this area Harlem.” But that only seems to be a general consensus.

    I don’t think I am living off of outdated mental image pictures, and I have never edited or entered on Wikipedia.

    But I have a feeling someone from the Church of Scientology will be all over this in short order, to change that reality, since David opened an Org in a “Harlem”, that nobody else in new York City, ( generally considers), “Harlem”.

    This only makes me G.I. issue. It is what we make it to be, don’t we? We create our reality. I am probably just, ordinary, while you have unique insight and experience.

  398. It is described as “Upper Manhattan”. And it is on the EAST SIDE.

    Is it, or is not, on the Upper east Side? I am not asking what you and everyone you know, “consider it to be”.

    I am asking you, IS IT, or IS IT NOT, on the upper east side? We already know it is considered “UPPER”. It is right there on Wiki and probably 150 other web sites. Generally and for communication and identification purposes. It doesn’t take a lot of skill to know if it is east or west side.

    It seems to me that you and David Miscavige consider this area Harlem. And a spokesperson for the Harlem Church who described it as being, “In the heart of Harlem”.

    I suggest ALL THREE of you do a FUCKING Confusion formula and FIND OUT WHERE YOU REALLY ARE. Or, Find out where that Org is.

    Or, go on wiki and edit it to suit your agenda.

  399. Miraldi – Bringing up LRH’s Affirmations took me into a bit of a side study of self hypnosis and affirmations, neither of which I’ve tried nor intend to. The pdf at the bottom of the site you mention goes to an an expanded site.

    All of LRH’s mentions of aspects of the psyche and otherwise are indexed. It’s quite extensive. It’s unclear how much self hypnosis he was applying to the affirmations. He does mention hypnosis here and there. (I’m not interested into going into his affirmations in depth. I scanned over the writings to get a general idea.)

    I think this fits into the Single Story topic in a general way in that the people in the Theroux doc have a steely determination and certainty that hypnosis works. They are willingly “reprogramming” themselves to positive thinking to the extent that it’s almost religious. (I would say that when I was active in scn I also carried that steely determination and certainty that I was on a path to awareness and expanded abilities, although I didn’t recognize it as such.) As an example of the self hypnotic approach in the doc, a person having a thought that they were incapable of becoming a millionaire might immediately replace that thought with a positive such as “I AM a millionaire”.

    At the end of the doc Louis tells the self hypnosis follower that he doesn’t wish to practice hypnosis and prefers to remain a skeptic and not follow that “path”.

  400. Obviously many prople apply affirmations to their benefit. I’m thinking that might be dualistic thinking. “I’m over here and that’s over there. I wish to go for that.” Maybe there is a middle ground.

  401. I can’t imagine why you might want to change the subject to something completely off-topic, “Cat Daddy”. Have you no on-point response to what I wrote ?

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  402. Path of Buddha

    Hi Marildi!
    I have been burning the midnight oil reading up on the occult since the Buddha book has been put on hold. Richard got me going when he played the Circe music. People are into occult. There are also people in the academic community who are also interested in the topic of the origin of Hubbard’s work. This site has done an excellent job and there are thousands of contributions just waiting to be digested.

    You said:
    “I always got that what he took credit for was taking the knowledge of others and distilling it down to the most key datums. And with regard to his own creativity or originality, that would have been in developing, with the help of others, practical applications of that distilled knowledge – namely, the tech.”

    This hold true in many cases. There are certain pieces of the tech which belong to Hubbard. Meter auditing etc.

    However, the deeper I get into the occult, the more I see the following:
    1. The overall framework of Scientology such as the first seven dynamics followed by the peculiar place of the eighth. In other words, his organizing principles are occult. ARc triangle id occult in origin.
    2. His point of view about science is occult. His disregard of experiments is occult.
    3. His attitudes about history can be derived from the occult.
    4. In many cases Hubbard borrowed from the occult and did distill the concept. However, in some cases, he failed. For example, he borrowed “facsimile” but the occult has more substance in its own context.
    5. Listening to Hubbard’s lectures, you can get the almost exact word for word ideas from the occult books. For example, Hubbard’s lectures on the Middle Ages torture are from occult books.
    6. The idea of the “static” is occult”.
    7. Hubbard’s extensive knowledge of non-mainstream people is often mentioned in occult books. College courses in history do not cover the occult. So Hubbard seems informed.
    8. The OT levels, except for Xenu, are from Crowley and Blavatsky.
    9. Hubbard’s lecture on Atlantis is occult.
    10. The creation of matter from ego is a central occult idea.
    Exteriorization is a big occult idea.
    11. Occult practices show much more scientific proof than Hubbard. In that regard, occult had success where Hubbard failed.
    12. Hubbard as the architect of the Universe is occult. OT VIII is so occult it makes you wonder.
    13. The list goes on and on and on.

    In other words, here is what I am saying: Occult was popular from after the Civil War until about 1980 in the United States and Europe. During this period millions of copies of occult books circulated. Newspapers carried stories.
    It was big news. There were hundreds of competent occult scholars. Then it died out. Hubbard comes along and filters the gigantic body of occult data into a religion. It is like water in the Sahara. He develops a few techniques and he becomes popular. He never even gives you the real occult which actually would have been a better route for him. Why? because he nailed everyone to the cross of minor BT’s. Hubbard makes the point that knowledge comes from the Chaldeans. That is the single most important occult datum. He got it from Blavatsky. So real occult is popular now because it can actually be made to work where Scientology cannot be made to work anymore.
    I am working on a follow-up book. It will be short and non-technical. I have not changed any of my views except one. Miscavige was a dope for getting rid of the OT VIII narrative. It could have saved Scientology. This is a nutty, bold statement. However, the occult is still very popular. Hurrard knew where he was safe.


  403. Richard, I’ve never been interested in affirmations either, as they seem like a mere re-programming of the mind. I’m more interested in being free from the conditioning of the mind, as taught by the nondualists, as you know.

    I read Hubbard’s affirmations from the standpoint of being interested in his personal attitudes and worldview back before he developed scientology. And I was gratified to learn that he had purposes that aligned with what he stated in his scientology writings and lectures.

    It’s possible his viewpoints could have changed from what they were before scientology. But, to me, that would simply mean that his ego/mind became conditioned in a way that conflicted with the unconditioned values of spirit as described by Adyashanti – which values indicate as truth to me.

    I think Hubbard’s views back when he wrote the affirmations would align more with spirit values than the material and moral values that people become conditioned to have. Here is the video where Adya lists out spiritual values:

  404. Geez, chill out. I simply tried to tell you that the so-called Harlem org isn’t on the Upper East Side. You argue that because Spanish—oops, East—Harlem is uptown and it’s east, it can be referred to as the Upper East Side. But since there’s a specific neighborhood with the name Upper East Side, if you call some other neighborhood the “upper east side,” your meaning will be unclear. (Similarly, Inwood is the most “upper” neighborhood on the west side of Manhattan, but no New Yorker would call Inwood the upper west side.)

    And, by the way, the text you quoted from Wikipedia says what I said: that the Upper East Side runs to 96th Street and Spanish aka East Harlem is north of there: “East Harlem, also colloquially known as El Barrio and previously as Spanish Harlem, is a neighborhood of Upper Manhattan, New York City roughly encompassing the area north of the Upper East Side and East 96th Street.” So I don’t feel any need to edit that (though I’d put in a comma after “New York City”).

    I’ll happily concede that the org is located in what used to be called Spanish Harlem and is now called East Harlem. I still believe that many people right near the org—around 125th/126th Street, in the vicinity of Fifth Ave—are as likely to call it Harlem as East Harlem. But I have no proof, that’s just the impression I’ve gotten. Maybe I’ll go up there and take a poll. 😀

  405. Before it is edited off of wiki, I just want to leave this here.

    Note: “it is generally not considered to be a part of Harlem.”
    Note: “it is generally not considered to be a part of Harlem.”
    Note: “it is generally not considered to be a part of Harlem.”
    Note: “it is generally not considered to be a part of Harlem.”
    Note: “it is generally not considered to be a part of Harlem.”
    Note: “it is generally not considered to be a part of Harlem.”
    Note: “it is generally not considered to be a part of Harlem.”

    I can be a lot of things on command, but not blind, stupid and oblivious.

    David Miscavige did NOT open an Org in “Harlem” by general view of New Yorkers.

    This was more smoke and mirrors.

    He opened an Org in a Latino neighborhood of predominately CATHOLIC culture, in a New York area.

    I am not the only person to notice,so, this it really doesn’t bother me. There are people all across the planet that can live with this illusion, because it helps them in someway. I’m just not one of them. And neither is the Nation of Islam. And neither are the people of Harlem. Because if you go back to that video of the guy going into the Harlem Org, and leaving his cell phone number, you will find out that as of today that is still a working number.

    This was a straight up scam for P.R. purposes. I don’t owe it anyone to act stupid. And, the first time I watched that video which was about two years ago, I called that number.

    I do understand this.

  406. Path of Buddha

    not an intentional mispelling:
    Hubbard knew where he was safe.
    Btw, Hubbard’s Affirmations are very sexual and it got me to looking at this in relation to the occult. Hubbard may have avoided Blavatsky not only because she was a woman but because it was rumored that she was hermaphrodite. There is some good evidence about this. In the 60’s, a male such as Hubbard probably had a difficult time with this. Also, Hubbard’s Tone Scale is not kind to homosexuals. In the occult, Horus comes in two forms – divine and human. This might be the origin of the Tone Scale. This thetan with and without a body sort of thing. It is also very gnostic in that Jesus in that context only has a thought projected body.

  407. Hi George,

    Regarding my comment that Hubbard took credit for distilling the knowledge that had been gained by others, you wrote:

    “This hold true in many cases. There are certain pieces of the tech which belong to Hubbard. Meter auditing etc.”

    I wasn’t actually alluding to the tech but to the principles underlying it. According to Hubbard’s claim, those principles were arrived at after determining the most important/key data from an “ocean” of existing data. That was what he had distilled out – the key data – rather than “distilling the concept” of particular data. He considered this to be a breakthrough in man’s quest for wisdom and indicated that it was the main contribution of scientology to that quest – along with the application of the data in the form of the tech.

    With regard to your observation that the occult can be seen in much of scientology, it is my understanding that the occult itself is fundamentally rooted in wisdom traditions going all the way back in history – or, to quote Hubbard again, “50,00 years of thinking men.” For that reason, I would say that it shouldn’t be difficult to see the occult in Hubbard’s work.

    In any case, I appreciate all you listed out. If you don’t mind, please flesh out #4, #10 (especially the first part), and/or #12.


  408. If you were truly done with it all, you wouldn’t be posting on this forum posturing about it.

  409. That East Side area, in upper Manhattan all the way to the South Bronx are Latino faithful that eat breathe live as Catholics. Many of the Sunday masses are given in Spanish. Their lives, families, activities and culture are aligned and entwined with their local Churches.

    “When just looking at New York City proper, half (15 percent) of the 30 percent of Catholics identify as Hispanic.

    New York Catholics are the most heavily concentrated in the Bronx, where nearly four in ten (38 percent) identify as such. Bronx Catholics are also overwhelmingly Hispanic (28 percent), with only five percent identifying as white, non-Hispanic and four percent as another race or ethnicity.”

    Since Miscavige has the subject of Scientology qualified as “religion”, (faith based) , and a “Church”, he has EXCUDED Catholics from the third dynamic group known as Scientology Church goers. By default.

    The Catholics in these areas have much higher moral and ethical standards than Scientologists. They do not park their wives on the street with a doubt formula. They do not disown their children. They will not worship David Miscavige. In fact, they will view him and his “gift” with suspicion. They have a Church and a religion that has served them and their families well for generations.

    “The share of U.S. Catholics who are Hispanic has grown by 5 percentage points since 2007 (from 29% to 34%), while the percentage of all U.S. adults who are Hispanic has grown by 3 points (from 12% to 15%). And the share of Catholics who are Hispanic is likely to continue to grow; among Catholic millennials, as many are Hispanic (46%) as are white (43%).”

    This is WHY this area of Manhattan matters, if Scientology matters to someone. It is not about race, it is about culture. What has Miscavige done for the Catholic community? He made Scientology a “religion” and they were suddenly excluded. Now he parks a Church in their neighborhood and pretends it is a gift to Harlem.

    “Hispanics are the fastest-growing ethnic group in the United States, doubling from 1980 to 2000, and projected to more than double between 2000 and 2020, according to Pew researchers. As of 2005, there were 42 million Hispanics in the United States, accounting for about 14 percent of the population.”

    “According to the survey, 68 percent of Hispanics are Catholic.”

    (68% of this population is excluded from the Church of Scientology)

    “The religious identity of Hispanics will affect politics.”

    “Two-thirds of Hispanics choose to worship in “ethnic congregations” that have Hispanic clergymen and Spanish-language services, and where a majority of congregants are Hispanic. These congregations are cropping up throughout the country, even in areas where Hispanics are sparse.”

    I don’t think they have ” ideal orgs” or obsess on real estate acquisitions.

    You would think anyone who actually cared about Scientology would want to know details like this. Otherwise how would be able to tell if “management” is working in your interests? Miscavige is not a holy man. He is a very highly paid executive who pays himself millions of dollars in cash, perks, labor. He is not a minister or priest.

    How do you think one single Scientologist has profited off of Scientology becoming a “religion”, and excluding all of the church going people on the planet? The Scientology community is filled with people that can not think with the ten commandments.

    And every ounce of bad P.R. created for the “Church”, can be found with that at the bottom.

    Do you honestly think a Catholic will become a more valuable member of society by leaving the Catholic Church and becoming a Scientologist? Inherit a million dollar debt at Baptism in the C of S, to “go free”?

    So what is the incentive for these people with that building? There is none.

    It was a very good real estate investment. Even if it stands empty. Great P.R. to maintain you have an Org in Harlem.

    Not too much mentioned is the fact that there are less Scientologists in New York City today than there were 40 years ago.

    And community investment there has been disappointing:

  410. I guess you also didn’t notice the Italians and Jewish people that exited the “Church” after it gained “religious status”?

    Miscavige actually convinced Scientologists he did them a favor by making Scientology a religion and obtaining tax free status.

    What he did was empty out the place and exclude most of humanity.

    Now he has crews of beggars begging to make up for the loss in income. So the burden is on the remaining. Did you see prices go down as his pay went up? Did you staff pay go up when Scientology no longer had a tax bill?

    Please tell me how you think he did anyone in the Scientology community a favor.

  411. “From orphans to immigrants and from the disabled to the homeless and families in crises, faith-filled responses to those in need grew into the Catholic Charities of the Archdiocese of New York. We are now a federation of 90 agencies that provide help and create hope for hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers in need.”


    3,701 families provided with expert counsel and safeguarded from exploitation
    696 individuals taught English
    22,309 calls for help answered promptly with accurate information in 200+ languages (39,813 referrals)
    697 breadwinners helped to obtain authorization to work
    758 detained unaccompanied minors helped with legal orientation and court representation
    436 individual refugees resettled
    529 individuals received humanitarian or asylum protection
    210 legal residents obtained citizenship

    What did David do? Scheduled performances for real estate acquisitions. Settled law suits with Narconon victims. Applauded people that threw money at the beggars. Claimed it was a religious “right” in a court in L.A. to use forced abortion as part of “religious discipline”.

    He seems obsessed with his new “rights” and oblivious about his duties and obligations for which those rights were extended.

  412. Not to mention, he obtained that “religious” status by bearing false witness.

  413. Now he’s in El Barrio competing with the Catholic Church. No, it’s not a “single story”. And nothing is clear is it? In fact, a portion of this thread is filled up just making the neighborhood identity of the new Org clear. To this community anyway.

  414. Path of Buddha

    “According to Hubbard’s claim, those principles were arrived at after determining the most important/key data from an “ocean” of existing data. That was what he had distilled out – the key data”

    Very interesting personal claim that he made. So I could do the same. Once I read all of the ocean of data, I could distill out what I considered to be the most important. We get back to the review of the claim by others and the scientific evidence. Hubbard did weigh in on what he thought was important and put together a system. However, does it withstand scientific review? Does it do damage?

    #4 I don’t have the exact page reference on this facsimile idea, but I read it in Blavatsky. In the occult, a facsimile is like a duplicate that is controlled. It makes more sense to me.

    #10 is found in the Hindu creation stories. It is also found in the Druids. It is like the thetans creating by agreement.

    #12 There is an occult concept called the Demiurgos. These are super gods who actually create the universe in place of God. I get an inkling of that in the OT narrative as Hubbard drifts into other dimensions to save the universe. It is occult.

    I don’t see Hubbard as anything more than an ordinary man. The occult data simply frames his human nature. I see him reading the occult books as a young man and conditioning his ego. IMHO, he created a void in his mind which he filled with an occult framework. He stared to believe it. It got stronger and stronger. I think that all of his occult reading damaged him and others in the end. He distilled out what he personally believed. He was a mirror.

  415. Hello, The Oracle. You sure can get worked up over someone correcting your geography. Clearly you misunderstood some words in my last comment. I’d try to explain them to you further, but honestly I think it’s better to move on to other subjects.

    You directed a few comments to some “you,” and I can only assume you meant them for me. (For example, “Do you honestly think a Catholic will become a more valuable member of society by leaving the Catholic Church and becoming a Scientologist?” and “Please tell me how you think [DM] did anyone in the Scientology community a favor”). And you’ve made other comments suggesting you think I somehow support Miscavige. It’s really not sound logic for you to make that assumption based on my comments about Manhattan neighborhood names. I despise DM wholeheartedly. And I’m concerned about the CoS getting its greedy claws into ANY of the residents near the “Harlem” org, whether they’re black or Latino or Asian or white. (Yes, in case you missed it, white folks are movin’ on up there!) But I especially consider it important to get the word out to all black people what a racist that charlatan LRH was. I think I’ll start making a flyer to hand out when I go up there to do that survey I mentioned. Stay tuned!

  416. When Miscavige obtained religion status for Scientology, he put everyone on the planet who was involved in Scientology, in a position to make one of two choices.

    1. Leave your Church /faith. Your identity there and all of the teachings. The ethical codes and morals. The group you are a part of of, your family that is apart of the community.

    2. Leave the Church of Scientology.

    Basically, “If you want to do another service in Scientology, you have to turn your back on God.”

    And worship who?

    Him. He is the only “higher power” people are allowed to think with that community.

  417. He just spent millions of dollars to park this message in one of Manhattan’s most religious neighborhoods. And he is selling it as a “humanitarian” effort. And what is religious about worshiping him at his real estate acquisitions?

    “See recent religious events & global humanitarian efforts.”

  418. The Church of Scientology, is a third dynamic group, at best.

    It is NOT an eighth dynamic group, or even a seventh dynamic group.

  419. In fact, it is an anti seventh and eighth dynamic group.

  420. So, what Miscavige did, is he wiped out two dynamics out from under his tribe. Those that stayed.

    They already are not allowed to think with the fourth, if you have read the justice codes. It’s all about not involving the community or community resources to solve your problems in the Church.

    So, you have a Scientologist thinking on five dynamics.

    1,2 , 3, 5, 6.

    Unless you are Sea Org, then less as you can’t think about mest animals or sex. Even yourself really. Those guys are operating on one dynamic. 3.

    And these people therefore can not think with the greatest good for the greatest number.

    Their reasoning ability is knocked from beneath them. And this why you see the willingness about totally unethical choices. Especially exchange.

    This actually causes people to be stupid.

    So not only are you expected to turn your back on any higher powers, you are also expected to turn your back on your reasoning abilities and powers.

  421. And this is where I take issue with Tony Ortega as well. He shames people for having a third dynamic, thinking with the fourth dynamic, being curious about the seventh and eighth dynamic. As if thinking with eight dynamics is some sinister business.

    What dynamics does he have? He has a third because he inherited it from David Miscavige. Not sure he has a second, if he does he hasn’t shared it. I don’t think he goes to Church or promotes and awareness of an eighth dynamic. The seventh is shot as he can not even be a real friend. How many dynamics is he thinking with to make a living? How many people is he willing harm attack and suppress to get bank? And he gets a following why? He has people that only think with a few dynamics. He gets people to think of themselves as stupid. Their urges towards spirituality are laughable. But you don’t see him up in the South Bronx hazing people leaving the Catholic Church.

    He profits off the collateral damages in the Scientology arena. And has created his own congregation of people wobbling on two or three dynamics. They are making decisions now based on the greatest good for the least dynamics.

  422. Tony Ortega’s reporting of the opening of the Harlem Org, was to attest that he waddled uptown and parked his ass in a car mechanic’s shop to take pictures. This is what he was able to bring to the table from his subway ride.

    Miscavige’s “news team” reported a “humanitarian effort”.

    Both of these guys are tripping and unaware of conditions.

    They are also oblivious to part of their dynamics, and encourage others to devalue some or most of their dynamics.

    And when I do not choose to be set up for these losses, I am declared crazy or suppressive.

    Like I am supposed to cave because of these attitudes.

    It’s easy to be hard. That is easy. Tony can be hard. Miscavige can be hard. I can be harder than both of these people, combined. It is just too damned easy.

    Easy is a luring thing. It really is a no pain no gain world. I will never have a reason, for taking the easy way out. “Let me just wipe out more than half of my dynamics I need to add with, life will be so easy.”

  423. Looking at basic dictionary definition of ‘affirmation’
    we can see that the only obstacle to an affirmation would be a consideration that is contrary to it.

    Let’s take from the list above some of LRH’s “affirmations”:
    ~ You love everyone.
    ~ Even when you use force on people, you cannot hate them.
    ~ You have no hate or jealousy in you.

    First of all, it’s great he had a strong desire to “change”.

    But what preceded his wish to “love everyone”?
    This must have been a consideration/belief that he doesn’t do it.
    Now instead of handling his “limiting beliefs” he tries to overlap them with a new “set” of beliefs.
    That’s why affirmations in the most cases don’t work.

    LRH was aware of this fact.
    His writings about “considerations precede mechanics” is a testimony of it.
    Many of his procedures have been developed so the individual (he himself) could change his mind, adjust his own limiting “postulates”.
    A consideration was defined as a “persisting postulate”.
    Even Dianetic targeted counter-creations which worked as a “held down 7” to the individuals positive flow.

    It may very well be that he never really handled many of his subtle considerations and modi operandi.
    There is lot of tech and many procedures but none address “limiting beliefs” directly.
    Affirmations only really work if you first handle the conclusions you have to the contrary.
    Sometimes it may be that you define a positive affirmation and the opposing beliefs fly to view and blow. But that’s the exception.

    You ask:
    “Maybe there is a middle ground.”
    Ideally when you undo your limiting beliefs in an area of your existence, you would be “clear” in that particular area. You wouldn’t really need a “belief” (affirmation). Clarity in present time is the desired state of the spirit.
    But then again, as we like to see things in persepectives and in themes, often we choose new preferences instead of being “totally” clear. Hence we use “affirmations” (knowingly or unknowingly).

    Look what a cognition does after a good session. Does it create a new “affirmation/belief” or pristine insight?


  424. Path of Buddha

    Marildi’s quote of Hubbard:
    “Acknowledgement is made to 50,000 years of thinking men without whose speculations and observations the creation of Dianetics would not have been possible.” (*Science of Survival*)

    The more I read this, the deeper the meaning. Hubbard only says “thinking men”. This implies he did not read Blavatsky. OK, I have no proof. However, he might have gleaned the ideas through Crowley and Parsons. At any rate, I find it hard to believe that no woman in 50,000 years ever came up with a creative thought!
    It is interesting that he goes back 50,000 years. Blavatsky goes back about 75,000 years. The occult message was well known at the time Hubbard lived. Blavatsky’s greatest contribution to the occult was that she proved that the “mediums” contacting the dead souls of the recently departed were a hoax.
    She exposed the fraud. Thus, Hubbard was able to stand on her shoulders.
    The vast body of the ocean of data from 50,000 years has a variety of interpretations. There really is not one single message. Blavatsky only tried to prove that it went back to a universal “root”. This root is not Scientology. Hubbard made his own religion. In a sense, Blavatsky can be considered the opposite of Hubbard. Blavatsky would have never spent endless time on BT’s or minor spirits. She dismissed these while Hubbard got himself stuck in them. Btw, the idea of a BT is basically occult. Hubbard only added the nuclear explosion to the mix. Is there any proof that the Xenu explosions did happen at the date that Hubbard stated?

  425. Path of Buddha

    Hi Richard!
    The difference between original OT VIII auditing and ALL of Hubbard’s prior auditing is like night and day. I cannot even explain how original OT VIII on the Freewinds evolved into its form. Hubbard died in 1986. He left very few instructions for OT VIII. Tech had to come up with a solution to sell an OT VIII. Someone found the Student Briefing written in 1980 and said, ah ha! there is Truth Revealed! Let’s add something about auditing but leave the burden to these people. Let’s see how smart they really are.
    Some people crashed on OT VIII when they read the C/S. It basically said “make up your own auditing and use Standard processes.”
    I was the biggest space cadet on the ship. Having read every Hubbard reference and having memorized the PDC tapes, I was ready. As a prep, they told me at Flag to also review all the prior books about OT. These included 08, 8-8008 etc etc. Being the space cadet that I was, I memorized these and History of Man. When I got the C/S, I said NOoooo problem. Let me at this; the beast was out.
    I created my own program and sent it to the C/S. I was surprised to see the note in the folder- CARRY ON! Yea! I set a personal record on TA action and it just kept going. After every session, the folder came back – CARRY ON!.
    I learned all about quantum patterns. But the message from Hubbard in OT VIII was perfectly clear. Only two people on this planet believe me ( one is Oracle).
    Hubbard is saying “I’m spent” You need to go forward on your own. There is no OT IX.

  426. George, I’m reminded of an article I came across a few years ago and actually posted the link here on Marty’s. It was published in *Gnosis* magazine in 1989. The author gives an overview of scientology and does a pretty good job of it, IMO, and in relatively few words. I’d be curious what you think of it too, since you have been doing your overview.

    I’m going to review it later myself when I have more time. Meanwhile, here’s the link for you:

  427. At the end Adya mentions ” Your true nature as conscious spirit.” I say in jest, that’s a pretty big mouthful to swallow. 🙂 He’s a teacher explaining his understanding in various ways as do Mooji and Gangaji. Rather than trying to analyze and apply nondualism concepts, I listen and some of it sinks in, so to speak. He says the follow up video gives some methods of application. I’ll listen to it later.

    Here’s what I was thinking before watching the above video:

    Corporations often have a statement of Purpose. Within the organization would be targets and goals for expansion, increased profits, improving employee or community relations etc. An individual, say an athlete, might set targets and goals for increased performance. He or she might also set targets and goals for attaining material things, and nothing wrong with that.

    Crossing over into goals for spiritual matters would be different. “I will be telepathic by July 2018.” doesn’t work, which is really just common sense. When listening to the nondualism teachers I usually don’t go into any deep analytical evaluation of what they are saying. Some things immediately make sense, sometimes I anticipate what they’ll say next, and sometimes if something is puzzling I’ll just let it slide.

  428. Great insights, SKM – “Clarity in present time is the desired state of the spirit.” I think this relates to a reply I just made above to Miraldi.

    When I typed that comment, there were 447 comments, and after I hit “post comment” there were 451, one of which was yours. Also, I forgot to change the address and name I used commenting elswhere, so hopefully after circling around the internet globe a dozen times it will land on Marty’s blog.

    Whether or not my other comment shows up, your thoughts relate to some of mine which I’ll relate later – I’m not a “quick thinker” – I prefer to ponder.

  429. You never needed to correct my geography. That was a wrong item and a wrong indication. I do not have misunderstood words.

    You started this by announcing, “This isn’t some trickery by David Miscavige— the area is definitely known as Harlem to the people who live there.”

    You moved to “correct” me, as I was working to correct the false reports, by adding more false reports.

    It is your enemy purpose that I protest. I do not agree I should be harmed attacked or suppressed. Not when I am putting forth what I consider to be valuable information.

    There is a “why” behind your enemy purpose and YOUR protest read here, that I point out these significant cultural dynamics. A “why” behind the wrong items and wrong indications you place before me and others.

    I’m not interested enough to list on it.

  430. Cool Richard,
    basically my comment above was in no way meant to counter your views. Just some food for thought.
    Affirmations are just the “things” we constantly tell to ourselves about ourself, or existence. Some are so subtle that we don’t pay attention to them and what they actually do with our outlook on life in general.

    Another thing to consider is that a “cousin” of affirmation is confirmation.
    While affirmations are considerations on our own, confirmations come from the outside. It’s when our affirmations are confrimed that they become more ‘solid’.
    This is one of the reasons why processing in an oppressive environment or by a facilitator who can not grant beingness and/or is somehow opposed to your finding your own truth won’t bring results or can be detrimental to your own progress.
    While you voice your own cognitions he is waiting for something HE is willing (or allowed) to confrim. You need THE RIGHT “cognition”.
    This is how beings are formatted into sheep like behaviour.
    Weak (or broken by wrong processing) beings will adopt views which are confirmed by the environment.
    But the same is true for any system like school, politics, science or what have you.

    Therefore it may be needed when working on undoing limiting beliefs (negative affirmations) to look after the environment or single individuals who solidified them.

    Hubbard used something similar in his “false data stripping” procedure. But it wasn’t applied to limiting affirmations.


  431. Path of Buddha

    Thanks for the link. I read that article a number of years ago and I still find it to be excellent.
    What new data I have discovered is that Hubbard actually had a difficult time digesting this ocean of data called occult. In fact, in the end it was part of the reason that he failed. The occult is not a single story. It is many stories with different points of view. There is theology and atheism. Hubbard simply took one aspect of the data and came up with the thetan. The ancient struggle was good and evil. Various theories emerged over 3,000 years. Hubbard’s mistake was to pre-package Scientology as if he knew it all. He thus emerged from a reader of the occult into a cult leader. There is no greater proof than this article. Hubbard decided that all problems had a root in the Xenu story. Hubbard extended the occult practices that HE accepted.
    He called the mind a computer and attached it to the Greek nous. He created elaborate things like the “service facsimile”. These all sound great and give case gain, but the process did not save him. The idea of the L’s goes back to
    Hindu creation stories. I think in the end that Scientology just became too complicated. Really too complicated. That article if a mish mash that jumps from one subject to another. Should you use Creation of Human ability or History of Man? Only an expert in Scientology knows. Hubbard was a madman changing ideas and processes to get the ultimate system. He was searching for the answer as one who is experimenting. In contrast, the Buddha never taught until after enlightenment. His tech never changed in 2,600 years. People added the occult as in Tibetan Buddhism and threw out his tech in the invention of Mahayana. But the basic core never changed. Hubbard was still trying to jolt himself in the end. Btw, whatever he did at the end was occult. My theory is that he was into “character building” which is an ancient occult practice at the end of life.

  432. I don’t know what “false reports” means in your language, but to me, it suggests everything I said was wrong and/or intended to mislead. Which is far from the truth, though I don’t know why I’m even bothering to say that again. Maybe it’s just for the record.

    You misunderstood something—if not individual words, then at least their aggregate meaning—because you failed to comprehend plain English. You’re so used to looking for “enemy purposes” or “suppression” or “wrong indications” that you can’t see a comment for what it is: a simple correction by a New Yorker (me), offered to someone I assumed to be a non–New Yorker (you), of the incorrect assertion that the Harlem org is located on the Upper East Side. (As you put it, “It’s called the Upper East Side.” No, it’s not.)

    Looking back, I regret making that effort, which led to so much pointless back-and-forth. Well…not completely pointless. The upside is that it gave me the poll idea, which in turn led to my determination to use my time in the org vicinity to also spread the word about LRH’s racism. So I owe you thanks for being my inspiration.

  433. You might wonder how any Scientologist does conditions by dynamics or exchange by dynamics . They don’t. The Hubbard personal Ethics and Integrity Course has not been sold or delivered for decades. I have never known of one MAA or “ethics specialist” that pays heed to the eighth dynamic in Scientology. The people think they are in a 8 or 7 dynamic if they are among Scientologists. They are the Gods. Or surrounded by the only Gods walking on Earth.

    They are so confused because of “religious status”, they forgot that Scientology is third dynamic activity. One that teaches that, “supernatural influences” need to be audited out! How is a higher power supposed to channel through these people or manifest itself? They think since they have no communication line with God, or Gods, nobody else does either. How anti seventh dynamic is that? Do they think people with supernatural abilities vanish with the their body? That any enlightened being has good enough manners not to impinge on them?

    If you were to do exchange by dynamcis, you would have to ask the Scientologist, “What is your exchange with God, or, The Gods?”

    If you look at the Church as a whole and look at it’s exchange, what does the Church of Scientology exchange with God? There is no exchange and no matter what they put on the web sites, there is a flat our denial of a God or Gods. Unless you think of Miscavge as a God.

    “No culture in the history of the world, save the thoroughly depraved and expiring ones, has failed to affirm the existence of a Supreme Being. It is an empirical observation that men without a strong and lasting faith in a Supreme Being are less capable, less ethical and less valuable to themselves and society….A man without an abiding faith is, by observation alone, more of a thing than a man.” Hubbard

    “Supreme Being” is a term for God used by theologians and philosophers of many religious faiths

    So, you have to assume the people that currently identify as Scientologists are below doubt in their condition to the Gods or a God.

    They worship Miscavige or Hubbard. If the Church of Scientology is making a mockery of religion, and you are viewed as crazy if you have some perception of a higher power, and you are discouraged from being in another Church, where there is an awareness of a higher power, or higher powers? What condition is that organization in towards God?

    They call themselves a religion and a Church. Who are you expected to obey? David Miscavige. He is the “Supreme being”. What condition is he in with God?

    Of course staff do not attend a Church on Sunday, because they are already in a “Church”. Scientologists don’t wander into other Churches, because they already belong to a “Church”. They already have a “religion”. So they do not bother to go into places that acknowledge the presence of God.

    These people do not think with the eighth dynamic. And this is turning your back on a God or the Gods or people that have an awareness of these forces. Do you honestly think any of the people would make the same choices they make, if they had an awareness of the eighth dynamic?

    So, I think Miscavige is in treason or confusion on the eighth dynamic. If not lower and there are lower conditions than confusion.

    His staff have to ask him for permission for a second dynamic. Who would make a policy that you have to ask him for permission to survive through the second dynamic? The second dynamic in that group is worse than suppressed. And why would you run a can’t have on a dynamic, on someone? They have one less dynamic to add with when trying to decide the greatest good for the greatest number.

    An “Ideal Org” has absolutely nothing to do with God or the eighth dynamic. He won’t even call an Org, a Church, with his own people.

    You drive all across America and on Sundays, you will see small churches full of people. The purpose of a Church is to connect people with that eighth dynamic. Not to impress celebrities and get the G.I. up.. If you have no eighth dynamic or awareness of it, you should not be parked in a Church or pretending to be one. This is treason on your fourth dynamic. Blatant treason.

    How are you going to be in treason on your fourth dynamic and “save it”?

    The false reports that emit from the Church of Scientology in terms of it’s purpose, beliefs, activities and events, is a continuous act of treason on the fourth dynamic.

    These people called Scientologists have been fucked with. And David Miscavige is on the treason there too.

    “Supreme beings” would not be in lower conditions across their dynamics. The more dynamics you cross off your radar, the more you can not decide the greatest good for the greatest number. So every time you pull yourself off a dynamic, you have just become less ethical.

    Now how ethical do you think a Scientologist really is?

    A Catholic, really can think with the greatest good for the greatest number. Make decisions that will be the most beneficial across the boards. For his Church, his congregation, his family, his people, his city and his country.

    David Miscavige is out of favor with the Gods. So is that back stabbing treasonous sadist Tony Ortega. He issues more false reports than the Church of Scientology, if only by telling partial truths. He isn’t qualified to tell a whole truth about Scientology. He has never stepped foot in the place. He has never explored Scientology as a subject and he has never been a Scientologist. He profits off of other people misery and hate and confusion and ignorance. He survives through a dynamic called ” human misery”. That is why he must contribute to it every day.

  434. I have enjoyed reading both your and Marildi’s comments. Hubbard never cracked the core teachings of the very many Masters who came before him and shared their wisdom and insights freely because he could not humble himself. His pride and vanity kept him from enjoying the fruits of the subjects he pretended to be above. He skimmed some of the cream and repackaged it with himself as “source”. Actually its quite pathetic. Overweight, smoker, drugs, divorced, not loyal. Money motivated. Quite the guru. Another flower that wanted to be the sun and ended up a weed. There but for the grace of God go I.

  435. “I was the biggest space cadet on the ship.” LOL! “the beast was out.” LOL!
    Space Cadets age very slowly. They are a humanoid version of Yoda.
    I have mest work to do and also need to allow my CPU (central processing unit) time to cool down. It’s been running constantly with all these thoughts and ideas being put out.
    Talk to you later, GMW

  436. George, I understand better now your reasons for concluding that the overall framework of scientology is occult in origin. You may be right, but the *Gnosis Magazine* article indicates that scientology is “ultimately gnostic in orientation” and also delineates many of its principles as rooted in ancient philosophy.

    In any case, here are a couple of paragraphs from the article that I particularly resonated with and consider most relevant (emphasis in caps is mine):

    “Wholly apart from the destructive aspects of a group dynamic is the undeniably empirical realm of transformation. A re-forming or re-structuring of consciousness, it occurs when an old paradigm dissolves and out of the phoenix rises a new way of seeing. An expanded concept of existence blossoms with the integration of new information. It can adopt the form of disorientation or liberation, but a transformed being must look at the world through different eyes. IT WAS IN THIS REALM OF TRANSFORMATION THAT HUBBARD MADE HIS MOST VALUABLE CONTRIBUTION.”

    “Ultimately gnostic in orientation, Scientology’s avowed purpose is to free the spirit of Man from his imprisonment in matter. AS A METHODOLOGY, THE PROCESS OF AUDITING IS LOGICALLY CONSISTENT AND, FOR THOSE WITH THE GOOD SENSE TO ESCHEW THE CULT, A FORMIDABLE TOOL FOR SELF-INSPECTION. Even Hubbard’s mythology, like the allegories of the Aryan Avesta, the Semitic Genesis, the Hindu Bhagavad-gita, the Mayan Popul Vuh, and the Gnostic Tripartite Tractate, serves to illustrate that ignorance of Self is the basic sickness in the world. FOR BETTER OR WORSE, THE SAGA OF XENU IS INTENDED TO PROVIDE A COMPASS FOR INITIATES WHO FIND THEMSELVES NAVIGATING THROUGH A SEA OF DISQUIETING IDEAS AND DISTURBING IDENTITIES, PERHAPS OF THEIR OWN CREATION.”

  437. “…There but for the grace of God go I.”

    Thanks for the ack, Abremelin. I think you would appreciate the article “Hubbard’s Ladder,” which takes a look at both the positive and negative aspects of Scientology and of Hubbard as a man, and does so on what I feel is an authoritative and fair-minded basis.

    Here’s how the article sums up the author’s views of Hubbard. You can probably relate:

    “Anyone honestly exploring the subject of Scientology comes inevitably to the conclusion that L. Ron Hubbard was a mad genius who passionately believed that Mankind was worth saving and, convinced that ruthlessness was a virtue, flattened anyone who stood in his way. A mass of contradictions, he was a self-proclaimed demigod who despised authority, an explorer who discouraged experimentation and a seeker of truth who lived an utter lie. Hubbard could not escape the law of kanna which his overt-motivator sequence had so aptly described. The church he founded to liberate Man from the cosmic trap became a dark illustration of the insidious nature of group fanaticism and his own paranoia. His eventual abdication of responsibility for the juggernaut he had created led to an enormous ARC-break with those who loved him for his genius and could have helped him surmount his madness.

    “In the final analysis, L. Ron Hubbard was living proof that his technological concepts are largely sound. Through the lack of their application, the man who stated as his philosophy: ‘The old must give way to the new, falsehood must become exposed by truth, and truth, though fought, always in the end prevails,’ sank his own fleet and collapsed his own Bridge.”

  438. NotClear2me, I find it interesting that many of us have been attracted to the nondualism teachings. Thanks for your input.

  439. Path of Buddha

    Hi Marildi!
    Yes, I see your point. In fact, I was impressed by his use of the term “the empirical transformation”. That is key to Scientology and I cannot deny that it can be effective. It is like an uplifting of the mind and spirit, in that sense.
    But my purpose is not to dwell on these because I am on a search. My search is to link Hubbard’s research to this ocean of data. I can understand the use of the term gnostic but this is too broad for me. I want the direct link, and I have found it by burning up 55 gallons of midnight oil.
    There exists a series of lectures by Hubbard called “The time track of Theta”. I memorized these, of course, over 20 years ago. In one of the tapes, Hubbard talks about the beginning of the universe. He uses a Hindu type of story where there is a “great ocean of theta” in space. He says that particles of thetans break off and these then create the universe by agreement. Now in another tape, Hubbard says something different, of course, but it is too vague for research. Let’s take Hubbard’s Hindu story.
    So where does Hubbard fit into the ocean of data? You might call it “gnostic” but that is too general for me. Actually, the prize goes to the “Medieval Kabalists”. I won’t say modern Kabalists because over 1,000 years have gone by. But the story is “Medieval Kabal”.
    Original Plato and those who associated with him ( the long line) claimed that the spirit never descended from “ether”, “Universal World Soul”, or light. An astral projection is radiated into an “astral soul”. Hubbard rejected the astral soul and astral body. So he is not here directly on Plato’s line. The Medieval Kabalists claimed that the spirit or personality could detach itself from the “ocean of light”.They also claimed that the soul could be purified and return to the Eternal as an individual. This is solo auditing.
    Early Plato had the astral soul hanging by a thread of force from ether. The fate of the soul was determined by action. The personality could go to a heaven or a hell. I think this might have been distorted by others.
    Seriously, the point I am trying to make is not to tarnish the good that Scientology can do. I am demonstrating in case after case that Hubbard’s writings were far to general and did not give proper credit.
    Interesting also is the fact that in the OT VIII narrative, the serpent, Adam and Eve story is spoken of as a single myth. In Medieval Kabal it is a repetitive cycle. Surprised Hubbard failed to notice that in his narrative. It is the key to all of it.
    So there you have it. This is what I am searching for. Very specific links. Isn’t this fun?

  440. Ok guys, I’ma leave this here for your discussion…I’ve never seen a more self obsessed, 100% loon group of people in my life. Do any of you ever have any fun? Do any of you ever just let it all go and simply enjoy life? Do you constantly have to be in pursuit of all this hokey bullshit and seeking the true meaning of life. None of you are really “out” of Scientology and you are desperately trying th find something to take its place and fill the void. I’m not kidding, you are the saddest group of people I’ve ever seen. Never have more words been wasted on a blog on absolutely nothing. I used to feel sorry for the exes, I now believe that you may all think that you have successfully rid yourselves of this silly cult, but your superiority complexes are still in.

  441. Path of Buddha

    “Hubbard never cracked the core teachings of the very many Masters who came before him and shared their wisdom and insights freely because he could not humble himself.”

    …and he charged a lot of money.

  442. Path of Buddha

    “Nasreddin Hodja, a famous Turkish folk philosopher, was seen one day sitting by a lake casting yeast upon the waters. A passerby asked what he thought he was doing. “Trying to turn a lake of water into a lake of yoghurt”, answered the wise one. “But that’s impossible”, said the passerby. “Yes” said Hodja, “I know its impossible. But supposing it weren’t”.
    Turkish Folk Tale

  443. People are running around saying , “There are no clears and OT’s”.

    Not if you are only operating on two or three dynamics. The Nation of Islam is making auditors and clears. They are ALLOWED and encouraged to have an eighth dynamic.

    The same grade chart, more or less, has been used for decades. And at the top of the bridge is states: “Power on all eight dynamics”.

    the ability to do something or act in a particular way, especially as a faculty or quality.
    “the power of speech”
    synonyms: ability, capacity, capability, potential, faculty, competence
    “the power of speech”
    the capacity or ability to direct or influence the behavior of others or the course of events.
    “the idea that men should have power over women”

    This does not mean you are “supposed to”, “believe” in God, or the Gods.

    When you kick off, you are going to be stuck with only a few dynamics and if you can not influence those areas you can not survive through these forces and conditions.

    YOU have to influence your eighth dynamic. And all your dynamics. The Church of Scientology is not supposed to wield power and influence over YOU. It is supposed to help you get to a point where YOU are the one with the influence.

    What influence do you have over the Church of Scientology if you are a member? The finances when you make a donation? You are put at effect and effect and effect. Effect of the prices, schedules, staff, public relations, negative publicity, false reports. Effect of religion if he suddenly decides it is your religion! You can’t even hang onto a ” permanent cert “! And why is David Miscavige threatened by Marty? Marty greatly, willingly, influenced that organization. He was willing to stand up and run influence. And of course, that encouraged others to run influence. And the protocol there is that David Misvaige is cause, and everyone else is effect. HE is the influence. It is a crime to try to run influence on David Miscavige. His own father was seriously fair gamed for what? Trying to run influence. So, what kind of power are you supposed to have in a third dynamic where you are not the owner of the company? None. The Church of Scientology, is a COMPANY. Would you rather they sell key chains? And because Miscavige calls it a Church and a religion, people that have no eighth dynamic connection or awareness, feel “unholy” if they try to influence his company. He won’t refer to them as disturbed employees. He calls them “defrocked apostates” as if he were Jesus! Do you honestly think, “Go suck cocks on Hollywood Boulevard” is God channeling through him?

    If a grocery store in your neighborhood closes, do you loose interest in food and eating? If you are not interested in self improvement now, you never were. If you can not function across more than a few dynamics now, you never could unless it was compulsory.

    Tell me one person parked on Ex Scientology Message board that wasn’t aware of eight dynamics. Most people that have never been involved in Scientology are aware of these dynamics. Didn’t anyone on ESMB notice how many of them are SURVIVING through ALL of these dynamics? The “members” there think they have a third dynamic when they have an Internet connection!

    They succumb through these dynamics:


    While they complain someone set them up for a loss.

    Why would they be OT? It is not even an OUTPOINT that they are not OT. Why would they be happy? Motivated and ambitious? These are not OUTPOINTS that they are what they are. This is the result of choices and decisions they make on a daily basis.

  444. Again, it isn’t the single story they are running with over there.

  445. Hi George,

    “Seriously, the point I am trying to make is not to tarnish the good that Scientology can do. I am demonstrating in case after case that Hubbard’s writings were far too general and did not give proper credit.”

    Totally got it. Glad to know you see these as separate issues.

    It does seem to be the consensus of opinion that proper credit was not given by Hubbard due to his wanting the glory. It’s also possible that, at least in part, he just didn’t think it was important, because at other times he did talk about the background of scientology from Eastern philosophy to Freud, etc.

    In any case, I’m now curious if you feel the Buddha gave credit to what he adopted from teachings before him.

    “So there you have it. This is what I am searching for. Very specific links. Isn’t this fun?”

    Ha! You made me smile. Glad you’re having fun. You seem to have found your niche. 🙂


  446. wow….couldn’t have said THAT any better

  447. CrashingUpwards

    Oh Molly. If you could only see and hear yourself. Your apparently too busy reading all these hokey comments so that you could pass judgment. You must feel great now. The self obsessed and superiority issues might be items for you to self examine. Good luck.

  448. Laughter! I love it! You’ve started my day with a laugh, Molly.

    To me it’s kind of like a club. Being bitchy, irritable and self obsessed are requirements for membership. The EP (scio-speak for End Phenomenon) is a superiority complex. After reaching the EP one may speak with impunity on any subject which contains philosophical drivel.

    Back at ya, Molly 🙂 You’ve got bitchy and irritable nailed. Work a little more on self obsession and you’re a member!

  449. Path of Buddha

    “In any case, I’m now curious if you feel the Buddha gave credit to what he adopted from teachings before him. ”

    Marildi, very good question.
    Gotama gave credit to Alara Kalama and Udadaka Ramaputta, two of the most famous separate teachers of his day. These two specialized in the upper absorptions or “trances” prevalent in India. After he mastered their teachings, he was offered a leadership role in these sects, which he kindly refused. On good terms with both, he continued his journey. Basically, the realm of “neither perception nor non-perception” was the biggest single barrier in meditation at the time and it could not be crossed with the “tech” of the day. Gotama decided to start over in the lower absorptions with energy and resolve. To make a long story short, he rose higher and higher and he reached the mind level of the “defilements”, or “effluents” or “taints” which he fought internally. These are commonly associated with Mara who is wrongly defined as the devil in Western thought. Gotama did this part with no teacher.
    After his enlightenment, he clearly said that he had no teacher at the end.
    It must also be noted that Hubbard implied he was the Buddha and also implied he was the Buddha’s teacher. The story does not fit as Gotama stated what happened and it was not exteriorization. Buddhist texts clearly state that minfulness of the body is a purely mental state. Hubbard could not have been Alara Kalama or Udadaka Ramaputta as both died and their separate fates are known and they do not point to Hubbard. Hubbard made the mistake of stating that Ananda, Buddha’s personal attendant, was the only participant in the dialogues. Hubbard never mentions the Buddha’s two most important devoted followers. Kassapa, the earlier Buddha, does not fit as Hubbard or his teacher. Hubbard’s claim to be Metteyya, the future Buddha, also does not fit the predictions or the body marks of the Buddha. I was informed the other day that Hubbard got this idea from the theosophical society texts published after Blavatsky’s death by her followers in London in the early 1900’s.

  450. Apparently, “fun” to you, is making nothing out of everything.No, the majority gathering here are not trying to devalue everything or one another.

    No, I’m not free falling in apathetic glee because I am totally out of ARC. What you define as , “self obsessed”, I see as an effort by a few to still come to an understanding. This effort is to create ARC, not disturb it.

    Am I superior to being an apathetic out of ARC person that finds it easiest to just make nothing out of everything? Yes, you are so right. I am superior to that, if that is a “complex” for you, I trust you some found comfort. If that makes you feel superior in some way.

    I look for my comfort in tomorrow. By understanding what is happening today. I see it as being responsible for my conditions. And for the people I co exist with. because I assume someone is going to be leaning on me.

    You are here looking for targets, so you can pull the rug out from under others.

    Am I superior? Yes. You got that right Molly. Am I apologetic? No, not at all. Thank you for your acknowledgement.

  451. Again, it isn’t the single story you lay down.

  452. Already 4 replays (in my comments time ) …. Wait for Oracle to see it …..

    Marty , best wishes and thank you for a place where I can find so many good and too much Bs ..,.
    Big hello from LRHs Bulgravia .

  453. Path of Buddha

    Hi Oracle,
    I found a “single story” that is working. You wrote a few weeks ago about “moving things”. Somehow, the world is run by moving things.
    Well, I have been watching this and figuring it out. I hired a man to pull weeds. I told him to pull the weeds. When I returned in ten minutes, he was pulling ferns. He said “Look what I have done for you? I’m pulling out these ferns. Like he was doing me a favor. I hired a handyman to put in some screws. When I came back in ten minutes, he was putting in screws but he moved a few 4×8 sheets which were not in his way. He had to move these before he started work. My sister-in-law came over and moved our 100 pound cast concrete Buddha statue about 2 feet. Why? She did not even ask. She just moved it to another location. I had to test this further. I moved a small table. My wife said. Why did you move the table? I watched this in a restaurant. You see people come in all of the and move the tables. Even Napolean, the cat, got upset when I moved his food dish. Like Hubbard had to move everything. He tried to move the mind. They told us on the Freewinds that OT VIII had to be on the Freewinds because we had to “keep moving”. Molly writes in and tries to move the discussion. Yea, it is “moving”.
    Much Metta,

  454. Laughter! Peter Allen moving stuff around. Dancers, singers, musicians, music, the audience, and himself, all at the same time.

  455. Interesting, George, about peope who move things. It brings to mind that Hubbard said, I don’t recall exactly when or where, that some percentage of people are compulsive “alter-ists”. They simply have to change things, “alter-is”, which is of course moving them around. If you tell them to do something, they will find a way to do it differently from the way you told them to do it.

  456. Excellent dialogue. Thank you & Marildi (and others).

    You penned: “There is lot of tech and many procedures but none address “limiting beliefs” directly.” I was wondering if you had any more information about that ‘limiting beliefs’ non-existent tech? Meaning, lol, if you are aware of any thing that specifically addresses that issue? I would like to pose another one or two questions but will wait until this first one is complete (be it a yes or a no). Thanks again for the great sharing of wonderful information.

  457. Path of Buddha

    I’ve had it where my way was wrong. The alter-is worked better.

  458. Running start change and stop on something, is control. That is not the same thing as alter is. Otherwise in a perfect world nothing would move. If you till the land and plant seeds, then harvest, feed people, that is not being a degraded being. Cause over matter energy space and time, is not degraded. But on the other hand, there really are no operating thetans. We are just wading through dead matter unconscious. Peter Allen is probably a wind up doll. he probably wrote “Rio” and performed at Radio City Music Hall being totally asleep. The audience too.

  459. Thanks George. That is always a possibility. But to me, the idea that it is the result of a compulsion rather than superior knowledge, observation, or rational thought, implies there may be some degree of unthinkingness involved. But not necessarily. One could be compelled to do the best job he possibly can, using whatever personal resources he has. Of course we can see how far the current CoS has gone towards the insistence on literal interpretation of Hubbard as “scripture” and forbidding any “alter-is” at all, turning all into robotic followers, right or wrong.

  460. Oh Oracle. If being a world class waster of words was on Olympic event, you would surely win a Gold in superiority in that event.
    And whatever this ARC is that you speak of, no thanks, I’ll pass. Is ARC another made up Hubbard term or a made up Hubbard concept? If so, I’m sure there is a real word that means the same thing, so I think I’ll go with the real, actual word. But you go ahead and keep flogging the Hubbard dictionary of words made up by a madman.

  461. George, it’s too big a subject to ask you to quote references, but without them some of what you say about Hubbard conflicts with my own understanding, and other things would have to be classified as hearsay. However, you obviously have the right to express your opinions as such.

    In any case, I’m looking forward to reading the book you’re co-writing about the Buddha as a man (or however you would phrase it). You and your co-writer monk shouldn’t have any trouble supporting your data, since both of you are well versed on Buddhist scriptures. Plus, you have the advantage of “two heads are better than one” in interpreting the writings, and you can compare notes with one another.


  462. Path of Buddha

    There is one more similarity. I remember RJ67 in which Hubbard talks about the “wall of fire” on OT III. He says something like “I had to take it alone”.
    I am going to use the terms “classical literature and occult” because I found some really thoughtful people. At any rate, there are numerous references to the “wall of fire”. In ancient days, Jerusalem had an outer ring where fire sacrifices were made. Also, there are gods in the occult which emerge from a wall of fire. The imagery is often used.
    In Hubbard’s creative work, he had no teacher. This is probably why Scientology can raise so much money. It is unique as a religion. Btw, I did find some very subtle references to auditing in Blavatsky. She postulates a sort of “psycho-metrics” using measured electricity to study spiritual phenomena.

  463. Operational costs and asshole costs

    Every organization has asshole costs even church

  464. I just eat, honoring chickens is really lost on the chickens I think.

  465. Okay, Hubbard was a genius charlatan,

  466. Just the Facts

    Fascinating Alanzo. I never followed the Bunker’s drama on this but heard about it here THEN went over there to see. After reading her post (from that time) about why she was ending the suit, I cannot fathom the weird (psychotic?) backlash against her. Her post was written simply enough so that a 13 yr old could understand it.

    So, either those people are not as smart as a 13 year old or they are bonkers. Or a combo of those.

  467. I think I smell OSA. Calling Hubbard a madman is a cover up. Someone might find some scn concepts expressed here useful without paying for them, or conversely see other concepts as invalid. Bullbaiting commentors here is a diversion.

  468. “Peter Allen is probably a wind up doll. he probably wrote “Rio” and performed at Radio City Music Hall being totally asleep. The audience too.”

  469. XXOO Thank you for the good memories from having crossed your path. Warm regards.

  470. Hi Marildi!
    OK, great.
    In 2008, the COS sent me an article called “The Point at which the PC goes Clear”. It is probably from a tape a tape. It was written for Advance magazine, but it clearly says Source: LRH. It contains the references that I am talking about. But you are correct, the subject is too large for a limited blog. It is ironic that I never would have opened my mouth had it not been for the Advance magazine. Till that time, I had no interest at all.

  471. “Of course we can see how far the current CoS has gone towards the insistence on literal interpretation of Hubbard as “scripture” and forbidding any “alter-is” at all, turning all into robotic followers, right or wrong.”

    This is the greatest danger of all of them – a literal interpretation. In classical occult, there are hundreds of recorded instances of people using spells, magic and other sayings which must be literal. I think that Scientology evolved in that direction for a very good reason. Hubbard never really explained WHAT he was doing and WHERE he got the references. He announced a process or a detail and it had to be followed like military. In the end, it caught up with the subject.
    For example, he made a list of great masters and said they were his source. If you look closely, he never totally followed anyone. He took pieces as he saw fit. You will always get the occult with this methodology. Hubbard missed the fact that in the 5,000 years that we have recorded the occult, it, in essence, boiled down to what he did himself – blind faith. Hubbard broke with Plato, but he picked up the bad habits of the neo-platonists.

  472. It just occurred to me today, that most of the kids joining CMO (Scientology Church management staff, recruited very young), are second generation Scientologists. So it is likely the majority of them have never been in a Church.

  473. Yes TO, as you say. What I seem to recall is Ron talking about some people who are stuck on “change”, actually, stuck on “must change” and thus compulsively “must change” whatever they are looking at/doing. I guess that’s related to “must create an effect”, it seems to me. He was talking about people who just can’t let anything just be.

  474. Even though they are running a “Church”. That is pretty twinsted

  475. Do they think when David Miscavige screams, “Go suck cocks on Hollywood Boulevard” at them, he is channeling from God?

  476. They supposedly co exist with the supreme being, This is having your eighth dynamic on. These are the Bishops:

  477. These is a high priest. “You’re the only one that can help”. (What is feels like to be Godless.)

    This guy used to be a Catholic. I wonder if he blew, or took of leave of absence?

  478. Church Deacons get their eighth dynamic on!

  479. Why is it, when serving David Miscavige, these “Church” servants who are wholly devoted to the God dynamic, are on a mission to restimulate?

    Miscavige is channeling (by command) through these people. These are his happy frocked disciples.

  480. And if a Scientologist chooses not to fall under Miscavige’s command, there are declared “apostates” by him. It is a new “declare” under the Golden Age of Tech. Do you know what the word apostate comes from?

    Middle English: from ecclesiastical Latin apostata, from Greek apostatēs ‘apostate, runaway slave. RUNAWAY SLAVE. It was used mostly in the early and mid 18th century in common conversation in this country.

    David Miscavige actually views people that leave his command, as runaway slaves.

  481. ^—— possibly, but *also* not an on-point response to what I wrote.

    Come on, man! Can’t you do better ?

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  482. Larry, you wrote: “I was wondering if you had any more information about that ‘limiting beliefs’ non-existent tech? Meaning, lol, if you are aware of any thing that specifically addresses that issue?”

    My answer to that would be the nonduality teachings. They teach that the entirety of what limits a person is identification with ego consciousness – a package of conditioned beliefs that create one’s apparent “identity.” In other words, the ego/self is merely a fabricated identity which hides and limits one’s true nature and ability as spirit.

    Adyashanti explains it in this video, part 1 of 3 of the basics of his teaching. In part 3, which you can find on youtube (as well as part 2), he describes the qualities of spirit.

  483. “It is ironic that I never would have opened my mouth had it not been for the Advance magazine. Till that time, I had no interest at all.

    Wow, ironic is the word. 😀

    Thanks again, G.


  484. singandanceall

    and so does LRH,

    as he called them PTS and then SP’s if those people were not handled?

  485. You know I dontwanna, but in light of communication being the Universal Solvent I must inform you that you are absolutely right.


  486. “Make no mistake about it….enlightenment is a destructive process. It has nothing to do with becoming better or being happier. Enlightenment is the crumbling away of untruth. It’s seeing through the facade of pretense. It’s the complete eradication of everything we imagined to be untrue.” –Adyashanti

    This first link is to a video of a live presentation given in CA three months ago by Dr. Guy McPherson. It’s an hour long, and it will change your world. Rock your world actually. It is enlightening. It is not for the feint of heart, and if you have great difficulty dealing with real reality then do not watch it. Otherwise I highly recommend it….

    This other link goes to a recent interview with a British scientist who essentially serves as a second witness to what McPherson says. Many, many scientists believe what Guy says, but for one reason are another not speaking out publicly. Most I think are muzzled. But that’s just my opinion.

  487. Lonestar, your quote of Adyashanti, as above, “Make no mistake about it….enlightenment is a destructive process. It has nothing to do with becoming better or being happier. Enlightenment is the crumbling away of untruth. It’s seeing through the facade of pretense. It’s the complete eradication of everything we imagined to be untrue.” –Adyashanti

    Lonestar, just to set the record straight, your quote of Adyashanti (as above) has a typo in it. The last word should be “true” (not “untrue”). It’s a quote from his book *The End of Your World*.

  488. “and so does LRH,”

    I had no idea you were currently in touch with him. Rumor is, he passed away in 1987. So, the “apostates” declare is coming from him? Thank you, this is valuable information.

  489. The majority of conversation and exchange of ideas of ideas flowing here, on this blog, are in the “present”. As, the majority of people writing here, are in the “present”.

    If you are more focused on “the past”, you may find more harmony conversing on ESMB, or Tony Ortega’s blog, where he fixates readers on “the past”, as he reports on events that are now in “the past”.

    Trying to place “the past”, in current or present time, or “real time”, can become a struggle as you are not on the same time line.

  490. Not that I do not appreciate history. But I was part of the Scientology history, I was there. It is my history too. We all have a different history.

    Tony Ortega has no history within the Scientology arena. He invents his Scientology history on his blog. He did not live it, he only makes notes as a voyeur. His history with Scientology is one of a Voyeur. But I was not a voyeur. His cult is always in “the past” or tripping on possible history or false history.

    The book he wrote, is a history book.

  491. And as ESMB / ANTI SMB is run owned and operated by “never ins”, they more or less fall into the same category.

    And for as long as David Miscavige keep people focused on the real or imagined “past”, he manages to loose them in real time. And they cease to have effect upon his future.

  492. And all the while people gravitate into these cyber cults are imagining they are having some effect on his future, they have actually succumbed into a “time” that does not even exist. And therefore, become non existent.

  493. Because they are so smart and Hubbard was so dumb.

  494. Marty: ” In either event, my guess is that the losers will be those who cling desperately to their rusting firearms (and narratives) failing to recognize that the war has been over for several years now.”

    I think it takes a while to abandon the conspiracy theories and start to see the world differently. I think everyone suffers from mental or emotional difficulties from time to time – when life is not going well – and none of us can judge. It takes a while to realize that you can offer help without having to follow a scripted response. It takes awhile to feel comfortable with dialogue that doesn’t have an “EP” and just talking with others is OK. It takes awhile not to always have to choose a side with an offense and a defense. It takes awhile for people to understand that the vast majority of things in life don’t require a “reality adjustment.”

    Are you crazy, Marty? I certainly don’t know. But you do seem a little pissed off at someone or something.

  495. Psossed by the Deman called “L Ron Hubbard” maybe

  496. Here’s a more reliable etymology of the word apostate: and Though slaves could certainly revolt, an apostate did not have to be a slave — the key sense is defecting or rebelling. Even the Greek source word comes from roots meaning, roughly, to stand apart from. Nothing re slaves. I’d be interested in reviewing sources that claim slavery is part of the definition or etymology.

  497. Miscavige must have seen this because he banned Jenna from a role in a scientology ad or film telling staff he did not want her in it.

  498. “If you can get a hold of its recent accounting you will see that the criminality has not abated.”

  499. ” I’d be interested in reviewing sources that claim slavery is part of the definition or etymology.”

    From not so reliable me to you:

    Middle English: from ecclesiastical Latin apostata, from Greek apostatēs ‘apostate, runaway slave’.


    Origin: Middle English: from ecclesiastical Latin apostata, from Greek apostatēs “apostate, runaway slave”


    noun a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle.
    adjective abandoning a religious or political belief or principle: an apostate Roman Catholic.
    apostatical adjective.
    ORIGIN Middle English: from ecclesiastical Latin apostata, from Greek apostatēs ‘apostate, runaway slave’.

    And you can always refer to foreign language translators.

    In the event SLAVE is actually not broadly understood, word definition can be googled to broaden understanding.

    The definition of a slave is a person who is the property of another and is under the control of the master.
    a person who is strongly influenced and controlled by something.
    One who is owned as the property of someone else, especially in involuntary servitude.
    One who is subservient to or controlled by another:
    a person legally owned by another and having no freedom of action or right to property.

    In Rev. 18:13 the word “slaves” is the rendering of a Greek word meaning “bodies.”

    ANYONE who said they wanted to leave the Sea Org or Staff, who was prevented in ANY WAY from leaving, and forced to do “mest work”, became a SLAVE as it was then INVOLUNTARY SERVITUDE.

    This is a CRIME in the United States.

    And I can tell you I saw it with my own eyes, the Sea Org culture does not have any problem with master /slave situations.

    Disagreement is considered “flash back” and “non compliance”.

    And the people in the Sea Organization are serving a MASTER and his name is David Miscavige.

    They can put on any uniform they like, they are any official military or law enforcement organization where people work under command and on command. It is straight from David Miscavige the Sea Org Members and staff are VOLUNTEERS.

    Anyone that was forced to labor in that place was shape shifted into slave status. And this is considered a crime against humanity.

    The Thirteenth Amendment (Amendment XIII) to the United States Constitution abolished slavery and involuntary servitude, except as punishment for a crime. In Congress, it was passed by the Senate on April 8, 1864, and by the House on January 31, 1865.

    The Church of Scientology has expelled people for “leaving with out permission”.

    The codes of the Sea Organization are unconstitutional and demand a “volunteer” turn his back on his constitutional rights.

    Who have you known that ever volunteered for the R.P.F.?

    The Church of Scientology was built on slavery.

    1.a person who freely offers to take part in an enterprise or undertake a task. a person who performs a service willingly .

    If every, “volunteer” walked out of the Scientology Organization today, the “religion” would fold with them.

  500. “Independent ” in front of the word, “Scientologist”, makes you are target in that theater for Office of Special Affairs slaves.

    David Miscavige is not keeping the doors opening or holding up Scientology, it is the slaves. Hubbard didn’t sell millions of books, slaves did. Salves built the buildings. Slaves begged for money. The culture has always been a master / slave culture.

    People can attack the subject of Scientology and the masters until they are blue in the face. Wrong target.

    All of the oppression on our lines was bought to us by slaves, who can not think beyond a master / slave relationship or system.

    L. Ron Hubbard was bought to you by slaves. David Miscavige is bought to you by slaves.

    Your exchange in the Sea Org or Scientology Organization has ZERO value, and you are declared a “freeloader” when you leave. You are NOT handed an award for your years as a volunteer. You are handed a bill and there is ZERO value in the accounting of your contribution.

    That IS slavery.

  501. And if you go out here any to open a center on your own, an “independent” center, where there is not a master / slave relationship, you will be attacked, by slaves.

    David Miscavige’s first act of conquering the Scientology culture, was to wipe out the mission network.

    Making only two choices for people. Slave or master.

    Now he has shape shifted the public into slaves as even if they work beyond the walls, they are expected to surrender what they earned to his beggars.

  502. So yes, in Scientology, an “apostate”, is a runaway slave.

  503. And you are expected to buy your way out of slavery, if you want to live “independently”. By paying off your Freeloader’s debt. Yes, you are buying your freedom and independence back.

  504. The word apostate originally comes from a Greek word that meant “runaway slave.”

    Apostasia Refers to a Revolt or Rebellion Against God.

    The word from Greek also means, “Rather than a defection from the faith, or failure to embrace the Gospel, the majority of scholars probably hold to this option, believing the word expresses deliberate opposition against God and/or His people.”

    In which case, Miscavige is saying he is God. So his critics are apostates.

    Either way, he sees himself as God or Master.

  505. singanddanceall

    my post, question to you had nothing to do with Tony Ortega or ESMB.

  506. Lonestar – I’d already arrived at what Guy is saying from the viewpoint of overpopulation. I didn’t consider it might happen with such rapidity. As usual, only a passing mention is made of overpopulation by the scientist, which is the source of the problem in the first place.

    I think climate scientists and others avoid mentioning overpopulation for two reasons. One is they don’t want to offend people who already have or come from large families. This could simply be addressed in their talks. The other main reason is the “be fruitful and multiply” crowd would have a fit and cause their funding to get yanked. Two children per female gives a stable population. Anyone for free worldwide birth control?

    A less dire future if we humans have 50 or so years left would be scientists working with Artificial Intelligence computers coming up with methods to sequester greenhouse gases and/or other methods of climate control. This assumes a whole new science, but certainly not impossible when facing human extinction and worldwide contribution to finding solutions.This would be in addition to voluntary or otherwise non violent reduction of population. China once enforced a one child only policy, although they recently rescinded it.

    In a biological sense we humans are large resource consuming animals. A billion is an astronomical number and hard to comprehend in human terms. Currently there are 7.5 billion of us walking around and heading toward 8 or 9 billion in the near future.

    Who said eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow you may die? 🙂

  507. Miscavige has the entire theater organized in a way, that if you will not acknowledge him as grand master or supreme being, you can not have Scientology.

    Most people that leave do not continue Scientology education or practice. Which suggests it was compulsory. Whatever they were doing or thinking with it, was under someone else’s will. The conversations between people that have left more or less reveal no understanding of what they were even doing or thinking and many claim they were brainwashed. Once they gain independent status, they have no interest in Scientology or any self improvement. No interest in mental health other than devalue others in the pursuit of happiness, as if that constitutional right should be taken from them as well.

    Marty rocked the theater. Because he continued with out permission from Miscavige. Helping others, learning, searching, writing, communicating, as free man. This encouraged others to do the same. It encouraged a few others, to copy Miscavige and RTC. LAUGHTER! It encouraged Tony Ortega, to watch in voyeurism at other people’s history, and make a history of his own from the little pieces of trash he could snatch. The rest wandered off or snatched pieces of income cycles to live on, or parked in voyeurism as well on forums or blogs to watch others as a constant. Or they have piggy backed on a Scientology community for so long, they have no other way to have any dynamics. Even the anti are piggy backing on Scientology to have meaning.

    But Marty created a line that caused people to have choice. What they chose is them, but they had a choice.

    Oppression off, most people are not inclined to study or think with Scientology. Many spend more time talking about it and gossiping about it and thinking about it, than they did when they were officially involved.

    I have been in a unique position to see the culture from the street up to the Flag Command Bureau, and talk with Scientologists from all over the world for six years.

    I would say 2% of the people that get involved in Scientology, are educated or curious enough to really duplicate the information or connect it a way that it networks with other knowledge and can be used. Most people that get involved have little back ground in spiritual pursuits, and it is frowned upon to even promote to those, as they are viewed as “open minded”.

    The ones that have been curious about mental health and have done any kind of study are frowned upon as being full of false information already.

    You get people in with very little awareness of a seventh or eighth or fourth dynamic.

    Scientology culture is a third dynamic master / slave enterprise.

    Interestingly enough, the Dianetics knowledge has spread like wild fire in a religious community with very strong roots in spiritual awareness. And a very strong awareness of master / slave conditions, to where it can remain independent of that.

    You can place a piece of parsley in front of a praying mantis and it will rot as long as there are insects to eat. It will stand on the parsley and hide under the parsley and use the parsley to “blend in”. While it goes for the things it needs.

    You put that piece of parsley in front of a rabbit and it will vanish.

    For the most part, I think this knowledge with Dianetics and Scientology, was placed in the wrong community, under the wrong conditions. That does not mean it should be buried.

    I honestly believe the Dianetics knowledge would be lost if not for Marty. Because Miscavige went all out to get some grass roots movement going that could counter what began under Marty. It took Marty, to make Miscavige let go of Dianetics and allow someone else to HAVE. And I base this on information from within that culture. That allegiance with the Church, was supposed to be a threat, but those people refused to be used. And it recoiled. They are the largest Independent Dianetics group on Earth.

    The fact that Ortega’s cult and and the anti cult fair game anyone that is curious, interested, has used something to their advantage, isn’t “broken and damaged” from having lived and explored, is not my problem. Fuck those people, I have risen above greater invitations to succumb. If I belonged in one of those groups I would have been dead by the time I three years old.

    These threads got started because they went after Marty’s wife to drag him down. That was unholy by any human standards. These people never, ever, belonged in a self improvement group. They do not belong in any Church. Most have never read a book unless it validates their positions as haters or victims. They are not curious. They were not curious in high school. They have no foundation with which to base any knowledge coming from outside sources. Unless it is gossip, bad news, tales of woe, tales of loss or disappointment. Anything else is unreal to them. So they invent to make it real. They are all two steps away from finding out what it means to be totally exterior. So what was taken from them? They are all going to kick off sooner than later.

    Scientology doesn’t work in the enforce band. If a person is not curious or in desire a person is wasting their time. The entire theater, fanatics and antis, are in the enforce band. A damned marriage doesn’t work in the enforced band.

    I also do not care to become a slave to the anti group.Their mission to succumb and cause others to succumb is the ARC factor that brings them together. The glue.

    There are higher powers than them.

    There are higher powers than David Miscavige.

    I don’t see Marty or myself as Gods, not even saints or holy.

    I do see us as higher powers or connected to higher powers, than both of the above groups. If you look around, we are not the only ones. Only 99.9999999% of the rest of humanity.

  508. I admit I overestimated. Mercy.

  509. I really wanted to take responsibility to make it right for everyone. I am not a person to leave someone behind on the battlefield. I had a dream, that things could be fixed. That it could be a win win with enough purpose. For everyone.

    But I have to be reasonable. These people want things from me that can not give.Even as I effort to lift people into a “know” I am attacked for caring too much. Hit for stupid shit like geography. My love and care factor translated as “insanity”.

    I’ve got to keep it moving. Failing, losing, history, are not my strong suits. This is not the war for me. I am not the warrior people describe me as. I am a care giver.My purpose falls along mediation lines where I can bridge people. The mistrust and wrong indications and wrong items laid on me in exchange are false exchange.

    So, some have managed to set me up for a loss.

    Have a win. Sometimes it cuts both ways. I can not disconnect from a seventh or eighth dynamic, to make happy a third. The math does not make sense to me. But i am can tolerate things that cut both ways. It is called collateral damage. I need to move on.

  510. Love, is an eighth dynamic thing.

  511. Maybe he cared enough about something to be pissed off. That is not an outpoint.

  512. For all of you anti Hubbard and anti Marty people, not even God could impress you. You have never been connected to an eighth dynamic.

  513. As far as current science goes, a reflective solar umbrella could be placed in orbit above the Arctic. At a given distance that umbrella might provide a hundred square kilometer area of shade over the ice cap.

    Discovering a way to use some aspect of solar energy to cleanse atmospheric pollutants from the atmosphere would be new science.

    Just theoretically of course, if all human females willingly decided to produce only one offspring, I wonder how long it would take to reduce human population by, let’s say, one half. That’s just a mathematical calculation.

    That’s enough from me about global warming – lol

  514. If I were Marty, I’d enjoy people trashing me. It shows I got them thinking!

  515. Oracle,
    There is a very famous Buddhist story which illustrates this point.
    In his first few steps after enlightenment, Gotama Buddha encountered a man near the famous tree. Gotama said “I have just been enlightened”. The man replied “That could be so, sir, but I have work to do, good day.”

    Here is one from the Middle Ages:
    “The greatest victory of Satan was gained on that day when he succeeded in making himself denied.”

    I worked as public point man at a Buddhist monastery for about 8 years. I quickly noticed that there were people who came in just to argue. They fell into two types:
    1. They wanted to come in and get it out of their system. They had studied religion and had it right and you were wrong. They wanted to especially point out my flaws in belief.
    2. Others that came in were people with no spiritual awareness whatsover who wanted to get it out of their system that all religion was BS. These used every trick in the book. It was like a compulsive need to be superior.

    Anyway, I got out of the point man business fast.

  516. It’s too late for any “fixes”. Waaaaay too late. Even if all greenhouse gases stopped being released tomorrow it will not stop what is already in the works. There’s a real chance that all ice may be gone from the Arctic before THIS summer is over. If not then it will certainly happen by 2019 at the latest. When this happens many, many megatons of methane gas will be released from underneath the permafrost. (Methane is a far worse greenhouse gas than CO2. Exponentially worse). It will take about a year for the methane to circulate throughout the entire globe. Then it’s game on. Or game over. (Earlier this year we had the massive release of methane from southern California. So that genie is out of the bottle now).

    I’m sorry but the extinction event looks like it will start very soon and will have run its course before or by 2030. Mankind will not ever reach 9 Billion. In other words. The thing for everyone to do is to squeeze every precious moment out of life right now. Enjoy your friends and family as much as possible. Here is a website dedicated to helping people to get ready and cope with the hard times just ahead….

  517. Laughter! California has some beautiful Buddhist Temples and monasteries. If you are traveling on the West Coast I recommend staying for a retreat at Abbey of New Clairvaux, it has a winery and they make their own beer too. The wine is truly divine, and purchases go toward upkeep of the monastery. The space is beautiful and the monks are lighthearted and very cheerful. They are very interested right now, in improving their communication skills and you might exchange a week end seminar or communications course for your retreat. And some wine!

  518. If you go, join the wine club first, you will get a discount on wine purchases. No membership fees.

  519. This all said Hobson even the IMF knows that 25 % of malnutriciend children will never get a full developped brain.

  520. Thank dude, how is your weed ? no sarcasm I am from The Netherlands.

  521. Some thing called the “Tijger mug” has enterend my country, that thing was from Noth Africa.

  522. singanddanceall

    one of the best books I read online was the Autobiography of Ben Franklin

    I know you are a buddist, George, and somebody who has done the whole bridge, That’s cool.

    I have not done the whole bridge, but I am connected to many who have.

    I really like Franklin’s 13 virtues of a good life, which he admitted he did not attain but worked toward.

    How do his 13 virtues compare to Buddist teachings?

    And, of course, there is the question of ethics. Hubbard defined his ethics as his conditions. Is this false?

  523. Michael – If there is such a thing as the Akashic records, then I think it would be nice if it recorded that humankind went down fighting.
    Along that line, why not put a match to the methane? Particulates in the atmosphere would cause years of global winter, but probably surviveable by some humans. The kings and queens of wealth or power could ride it out in underground bunkers.
    I watched a follow up video at the site you posted, “Our time is running out – The Arctic sea ice is going!” by Professor Peter Wadhans. He gives an overview of political and social norms, the thinking and actions of most people and politicians.
    The only real solution he offers is a Manhattan Project (World War II development of the atomic bomb) approach to finding a way to remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. A stopgap measure for methane release would be hydraulic fracturing, frakking. I guess that would just be a temporary pressure relief valve type of thing.

  524. singanddanceall,
    Ben Franklin’s thirteen virtues are very Buddhist indeed. He follows the middle way, the golden mean. His impulse to kindness and moderation is noble. His energy to strive for perfection is very Buddhist. His tolerance of others and ability to let things go form the basis of a type of meditation. His approach to the proper role of sex and pleasure is illustrative of an ideal Buddhist Householder.
    After seeking refuge in the Buddha, I took the precept of “no alcoholic beverages.” In that regard, Franklin’s moderation stops short of Buddhism.
    Franklins reference to Socrates and Jesus separates him from Scientology as Hubbard railed against Socrates.

    “And, of course, there is the question of ethics. Hubbard defined his ethics as his conditions. Is this false?”

    The above quotation is a very subtle question.
    It could be stated that ethical conditions are karma. In that way, Hubbard would have a subjective view of his reality. However, Hubbard had the idea of the overt/motivator which could be interpreted,understood and controlled in “auditing”.
    In Buddhism, karma is much more complex than Hubbard’s view. In that regard, Hubbard claims ownership of his own karma which is not Buddhist at all. I cannot judge Hubbard as true or false. All that can be said is that Hubbard’s “input/output” is more subjective or occult.

    Great post!
    Much Metta

  525. RK – I can relate to your “I think it takes a while . . .” mentions. Well said

  526. Many moons ago I found that Mary Jane was bringing up deep seated emotional sadness, ennui, melancholy. I’d wake up crying.

  527. Actually that would be a follow-up video to what I posted, not Michael. Anyway, yes I’m very familiar with Peter Wadhans. He is one of the foremost authorities on the Arctic.

    Yes, humankind should go down fighting. I suspect that only a small percentage will because only a small percentage is fighting now. Most don’t give a fuck. Well….they’ll soon be dead. Before that they will be begging for death due to their abject misery and discomfort. We’ll see if “Pokeman Go” or Donald Trump will save their sorry, pathetic asses. (I speak as a fool).

    Guy McPherson has a balanced approach to fighting I think. He says he is “hope free”. Not hope-less. There is a difference. Basically it’s the approach to fighting with passion, but not being invested in the outcome. I think it means to push for success, but don’t necessarily expect it. Hopefully enough life will survive the mass extinction event for more life to come back in millions of years. Frankly, I hope humans never come back. The human “project” has been an abject failure. IMO. Nasty beings, humans.

  528. As far as the anti Scientology crowd, I have found the people complaining the loudest have the most viscous crimes against humanity in domestic terrorism. And here I provide the best example: Aaron Saxton. The Sea Organization’s most ruthless and notorious sadistic enforcer for over a decade.

    This guy proudly boasts wallowing in sadism and domestic terrorism for over a decade, and freely about his crimes against humanity.

    And, I bring up Aaron because this IS the “poster boy” for the anti movement who’s roots lay in years long domestic terrorism under the umbrella of “freedom” and “religion”. This is the tone and embodiment of ESMB and Ortega cults. Investigate, fair game, harm attack and suppress. All under an umbrella of “righteous indignation”. While sitting on top of crimes against women and children , the easier targets.

    We already know Tony Ortega pimped children in New York and women in his midst had a short life span.

    Aaron brags of being a ruthless thug and moving into positions to dominate and nullify others starting at age 15, as his “contribution to mankind” :

    “During his time as a security guard at the church in Sydney – a job he started at 16 – Saxton says he assisted in the “forced confinement and torture” of a female church member who was kept under “house arrest” on a farm in western NSW for a month, after she began screaming outside the front of the church headquarters. He also details how church officials (NOTE : HIMSELF) bullied pregnant staff members into aborting their babies.

    “The staff that got pregnant were taken into offices and put under duress,” he wrote.

    “They were informed that their getting pregnant was not in line with the Sea Org [Sea Organisation, an elite division of Scientology] plans, and that their departure represented a failure for the greatest good and that they should abort.”

    Many women were demoted – or “assigned to lower conditions” – if they refused an abortion, he wrote.

    “At the time I assigned the [lower] conditions it was always in the hope that the person would miscarry the child or abort at a later date,” his letter says.

    “We had one staff member who used a coat hanger and self-aborted her child . . . all her files were destroyed.”

    Saxton also admits in his statement to helping track down 10 staff members who left the church “without authorization,” and misusing confidential information – including priestly confessions – held in their personal files.

    “We used the information to call banks and cancel credit cards,” his letter states.

    “We used the information to falsely contact airlines and cancel their tickets [by pretending to be them].”

    “I am a young, mean, spiteful man. ”

    “We threw her into an office until we could decide what to do with her,” Saxton says. Later, he and others decided she needed to be driven to a remote farm.

    “They took her out there for two months. And to help her, they audited her in a barn,” he says, shaking his head.

    “Every day at two in the morning, I’d get info about her faxed to me. I’d take that to the other officers to decide what to do with her. Then I got a phone call that she’d escaped. She was so insane the first place she came back to was the AO where I was working. She was demanding an e-meter so she could audit herself,” Saxton says. “This time, they drove her off, and I never heard of her again. Totally vanished.”

    “I recruited about 50 people between the age of 15 and 17 to join the Sea Org. It always surprised me that parents would just turn their kids over like trinkets to be dressed up in naval uniforms…. But for Scientologists, giving up their daughters and sons doesn’t bother them because they don’t see it as their only life to give.”

    “Imagine this. You’re a 10-year-old cadet. You form seven lines for division 1, division 2…” he says as he gets up and stands at attention to illustrate what he means.

    “The commanding officer is 12 years old. You have an MAA – master-at-arms – he’s another kid. ‘All present and accounted for, sir.’ Three times a day. 10-year-old kids. Morning, lunch, dinner.

    “I’d love to see a poster of those kids, in their uniforms, saluting each other, and the words, underneath, ‘Is this religion?’

    “I was over the world statistics. I always saw Scientologists being lied to about the numbers by [church supreme leader] David Miscavige at events.”

    He even admits to looking the other way while Miscavige issues false reports.

    So, Aaron aligned himself with new enforcers in a new war, and parked his butt on any chair any anti would slide beneath him. And he continued to, fair game, harm, attack and suppress!

    Then, after shooting all of his bullets at the Church and pointing his finger there, he started looking sideways and going after anyone he could here. Tory, Mike Rinder, Marty. Just to mention a few and get his feet wet. He just went onto new targets, same habits and routines.

    Fair game, harm, attack, suppress. Domestic terrorism.

    But excuse me? He is out of the Church of Scientology. Nobody is making him do this. He is volunteering, with enthusiasm. He even made videos as his fame slumped to youtube status, for Mike and Marty.

    And I can assure you. wherever this guy has been parked for the last seven years since his noisiest witch hunts, he is parked under some umbrella or banner that gives him targets for abuse, and using the fraudulent calling card of “concern for mankind”, to fair game, harm attack and suppress other people.

    And if you parked him in the Red Cross he would still be him on the same purpose line.

    In fact, it would not surprise me one bit to find Aaron has been running ESMB under the name “bunnyskull”. And I am not just saying that because someone from over there told me. I have no evidence.It doesn’t matter because they are interchangeable in social intercourse with normal habits routines and purpose.

    The thing is, with the benefits possible from any technolgy, you have to find an entrance point to a person’s case that parallels their reality. Usually, simple communication skills can improve any person’s social intercourse, and therefore, their life..

    But sometimes that is way too high. And the proper entrance point, is first separating them from others, so they can learn to breathe in and out, just breath in and out, without the need to reach out and attack and destroy.

    The proper entrance point, is a prison sentence.

  529. And there is clear evidence and plenty of it, the “bunnyskull” manifests through fraud, deception, false reports, injustice, slander, fair gaming, bullying, harming, attacking, suppressing. Is former Sea Org and still in the identity of an enforcer and prosecutor. Hence, using the umbrella of, “Scientology” as a platform to dramatize evil purposes to curb stomp their fellow man.

    Let us be CLEAR. This is NOT “anti Scientology”.


  530. AAnyway, at the height of his protest about his years in CMO HCO debauchery, Aaron received a sudden cash infusion. A “donation” with out ties. Sudden silence. Even several of his videos went down.

    He invested himself in New York as a flower grower. D.B.A as Aaron Tweddle. Maybe he took a pay out for a gag order, I don’t know. That might explain the why for a sudden departure, and need to post behind a fraudulent identity with “never in”, details.

    Of course, all of this is speculation.

  531. You are testing me aren’t you ? Or I am just insane. Maybe I am.

  532. singanddanceall

    Thanks George for reply.

    The reason why I was subtle in my question regarding ethics has to do with I started reading Aristole ethics. I ran across one of his virtues called “friendship” and Aristole breaks it down to 3 types. This kind of compares to Hubbard’s 4 conditions of exchange although Hubbard leaves off the friendship part although he wrote a book called science of survival and talked much about ARC.

    Hubbard never really talks about this, friendship, as far as I can recall. I note you sign with “Much Metta”. From what I can google research quickly it means friendship as well.

    I recall when I was a young lad, way before when I got involved in scientology or even head of it, I told one of my friends, I wish to live forever. And I thought one of the best things in the world were my friends.

    And here I am reading about it (Aristole, and you I reckon Budda) some 40 years later and my thoughts at the time were correct you might say. (Smile by me).

    Anyways, what are your thoughts on the above?

    PS: My personal view is just because Hubbard references somebody in his books or lectures, I do not necessarily believe he read them or studied them, and possibly just used the names as positioning to make it sound like he read/studied them.

  533. That movie spooked Miscavige

  534. Are you talking about Aaron Saxton. He my bro too like Marty

  535. Come at me you death dealer.

  536. L Ron Hubbard was a “Slaver”

  537. Great stuff Oracle, and I hope it is the starting point for a final examination of Scientology as the “Not a Religion”
    James Madison, the founding father, clearly stated that “freedom of religion” was granted to only those who understood the duty that one has to a creator God. Since Scientology is its own God, and thus is not Divine, it does not qualify for protection under the First Amendment. Until this is finally cleared up, Scientology will always get away with these crimes.
    Even Satanists claim that they are in opposition to an actual God.
    Scientology leaves the eighth dynamic alone but this is merely connection to the occult. Even in Kabballah, one of the roots of Scientology, the creator god initiates the spirits or “thetans”. It is almost impossible to find religion in Scientology. As Madison put it, you need a duty to a creator God. Even in Buddhism we have a creator God – Brahma -who is almost permanent. But even Brahma creates and thus satisfies Madison’s criteria. One could say that the magical, occult ritual called “auditing” is religion, but this does not satisfy the full definition since it is subjective. You do not find the real Plato in Scientology; so how can it align with justice and freedom? You do find in Scientology what can only be called “reverse emanation” which Hubbard renamed “exteriorization”. Exteriorization in Scientology is actually a modification of the occult. Technically, it cannot even happen in the occult since the subjective power would always be of a lesser degree than the sustaining force. This is why there are no OT’s. This is not related at all to the issue of the workability of Scientology in cleaning up the mind. It merely eliminates it as a religion. It is better defined as a business or as a “therapy”.

  538. ” of course, all of this is speculation. ”
    Me thinks , it is with all of your posts . and there are 80% yours ,just on this Marty’s post . Maybe you do not understand , but this is very too much .

    Big hello from LRHs Bulgravia .

  539. Comment #682 about Tony Ortega. You need some auditing. He’s renting space in your head.

  540. By the way, Today Tony Ortega reported that Tommy Davis was “banished from the Sea Org” over the Haggis article.

    I am not a fan of Tommy Davis. Or his wife. But I do not need to invent slander and publish it about them, that would put me on the same page with them wouldn’t it?

    There is no evidence Tommy was fired from any job. Yet Tommy published against his public record.

    You notice Tony Never makes an announcement when he is banished from a work place?

    After being offloaded from the Village Voice which he left in shambles, he worked for a publication in California that he doesn’t even mention. I wonder why? Tony, why can’t I find this anywhere on your published history?

    Then there was the Raw Story, and there doesn’t seem to be any evidence he is still working for that youtube channel Lip t.v.. He used to have Lip t.v. on his web site.

    Stats crashed when he took over the Village Voice, and his solution was to fire people, and then print less papers!!! I kid you not! He explained it as “typical” due to Internet.

    “In the biggest market, New York, the Village Voice’s circulation averaged 213,358 for the 12 months ending June 2009, down 11% from 240,265 during for the same period in 2008. Ortega said the paper reduced the number of copies printed to save money. Saving money by printing fewer copies of the paper was a “better way to stanch the bleeding” than laying off employees, he said.”

    “Although Village Voice does not publicly release figures, Ortega said ad revenue declines for the paper were consistent with the rest of the industry”.

    Did he expected the magazine to expand through child prostitution and for them all to live happily ever after?

    “By contrast, some small-market alt-weeklies stayed fairly constant and some grew, including:

    Reno News & Review climbed 7.8% to 23,450 for the six months ending September 2009, up from 21,726 for the same period in 2008.

    The Missoula (Mont.) Independent grew 6% in circulation to 18,357 for the six months ending March 2009 from 17,307 for the same period the year before.11

    Wausau (Wis.) City Pages grew 4% in circulation to 14,331 for the 12 months ending September 2009 from 13,770 for the same period in 2008.12.

    How many jobs has Tony Ortega been fired from in the last ten years?

    There was a time when Ortega bragged he was taking the Church to task for smearing public figures: Aug 16, 2015 – Raw Story Executive Editor “Tony Ortega has taken the Church of Scientology to task for “smearing” public figures.”

    Now that is what he does full time. When it behooves him and his business.

  541. hyp·o·crite
    a person who indulges in hypocrisy.
    synonyms: pretender, dissembler, deceiver, liar, pietist, sanctimonious person, plaster saint; informalphony, fraud, sham, fake
    “I’ve been made to feel inadequate my whole life by someone who turns out to be a total hypocrite”

    a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.

    The word hypocrite is rooted in the Greek word hypokrites, which means “stage actor, pretender, dissembler.” So think of a hypocrite as a person who pretends to be a certain way, but really acts and believes the total opposite.

  542. Tony’s allegiance group, aesthetes in Seattle who do not “believe” , because they do not perceive.

  543. Aaron Saxton’s blind spot on violence towards women. From the same interview:

    Can you list the crimes or immoral acts you’ve been involved in, or witnessed, as a Sea Org member?

    Some of the crimes involved other Sea Org members. The most notable crimes were the releasing of private information to the public on people we wanted blacklisted. Rapes of underage Sea Org Children were covered up. There were instances where Scientologists, as part of checking their qualifications, revealed true crimes against other civilians, such as theft, child molestation and even murder. At a price, such crimes were never divulged to the police unless the person went against Scientology. I think my most reprehensible act was requesting abortions and punishing young Sea Org members between the ages of 13 and 17 for petty crimes, making them feel very guilty and issuing severe punishments that should not be given to a human being.

    Can you detail an instance of rape being covered up?

    In 1992 or 1993 in Florida a young recruit was in Commodore’s Messenger Org, Clear Water. She was 14 at the time — possibly just turning 14, actually. Two other trainees from Mexico, ages 16 and 18, took her and sexually assaulted her at the same time. Upon discovery the staff were let go, but to cover up the incident and to make sure she did not feel like she could go to the police, we subjected her to eight weeks hard labor and made it clear she had been responsible for it occurring.

    Were there cases of violent abuse?

    I am not aware of violent abuses wherein severe physical harm ever came to an SO member.

  544. Aaron’s video cancelling his “call to arms”, announcing his exit / withdrawing his influence in Australia on senate hearings, and requesting anons report in to him.

    Well, gee whiz what happened all the sudden?

    He also says here he is not influencing anonymously. So, it would be a “bizarre and shocking” (Tony Ortega’s style) revelation that he went over to ESMB, took over that forum, and has still been fair gaming Marty and Mike, from a shadow corner, while they have been out on the front lines taking the risks and bullets.

  545. Path of Buddha: “This is not related at all to the issue of the workability of Scientology in cleaning up the mind. It merely eliminates it as a religion.”

    I don’t know, George. It seems to me that to the degree the mind is cleaned up, the spiritual nature comes into being. This is the premise not only in Scientology but non-dual teachings and maybe others as well.

  546. I am auditing, the fourth, third, seventh and eight dynamic. I am interested in keeping the books in order and proper values assigned.

  547. “Notice that wrong item.” “Notice that wrong indication.” “Notice that wrong who.” “Notice that wrong why.” “Notice that bait and switch.” “Notice that false report.” “Notice the product.” Etc.etc.

    I think the people that post on this blog, think these are the only people that read this blog.

    But there are a LOT of people that read this blog and do not post here. I know because of the emails I get. Marty has been doing the same thing for years. Auditing the dynamics.

    And more than one person has pointed out to me, that I have been learning this craft from him.

  548. In scio-speak, where does “implant” fit in? Above you say “WE ALREADY KNOW Tony Ortega pimped children . . .etc.” Sounds like an “implant” to me.

  549. Just the inconvineent facts.

    Let me know when you view THEIR accounting. They will be accompanied by a CERTIFIED audit from a KNOWN auditing company.

    If you consider the % they retain as reasonable “Operational costs” then you are either incredibly stupid, insane or criminal. Not knowing you I don’t know which.

  550. Hi Marildi,
    I’m only looking at religion from the point of view of Madison. The founding fathers seemed to believe in a creator God. I get a lot of support for this view from my fundamentalist friends. This issue of cleaning up the mind so the spirit can emerge is something I do not think the founding fathers considered. It might just be too difficult to define. After reading Madison, I leaned in the direction of Scientology as a “not a religion”. I think it would be great for Scientology to face justice without the cloak of a religion. Catholics are a religion, but the Church was punished in the courts over the homosexuality of some priests. Scientology is simply too small compared to Catholics to get the attention of the courts. The founding fathers wanted “duty” from a religion; that is very,very clear. What is Scientology’s duty? Is it to by-pass the constitution? Like I was really irritated by 20 years of mail from Scientology after I left. This mail was biased in the direction of Scientology. Did Hubbard give a damm about the Constitution with Snow White? No. You can make a case that Scientology is actually treason. I say that as an army veteran who served.

  551. Seriously? You are accusing me of implanting people? Why? Because you didn’t read the last six blog threads and look at the links I posted?

    O.K.. Whatever gets you through the night.

    The Oracle | July 6, 2016 at 4:27 pm | Reply
    Seriously Alanzo? You have a protest read on Tony Being called out for pimping children?

    The Oracle | July 6, 2016 at 4:37 pm | Reply
    Why do you think Tony is hell bent on accusing Marty of taking unholy money and looking the other way. Marty is feeding his kid, Tony was selling them.

    The Oracle | July 6, 2016 at 4:40 pm | Reply
    “Several members of the City Council in New York have also introduced a piece of resolution that asks Village Voice Media to close down the adult section because it is being used as a “platform to traffic minors for sex.”

    “In some cases, adults are pictured but minors are substituted at the “point of sale” in a grossly illegal transaction, the prosecutors said.”

    The Oracle | July 6, 2016 at 4:47 pm | Reply
    It took activists groups, the New York City Counsel, and New York Prosecutors to make it stop! And grown assed people are here pretending it never happened? I’m thinking you and baby are being pimped by Tony Ortega at this point. Seriously man. How are you people O.K. with that? Why do you think I get inflamed when he uses his blog to torment and fair game children? He banned me for criticizing him about it! Like I was the outpoint!!!

    The Oracle | July 6, 2016 at 5:02 pm | Reply
    New York City prosecutors had to take on that man! Do you think they had some ulterior motives beyond getting the activist groups off their backs?

    The Oracle | July 6, 2016 at 5:12 pm | Reply
    27 Advertisers Leave Village Voice Following Child Sex Ad Scandal:

    Village Voice Advertisers Fleeing After Sex Trafficking Scandal


    To date, 92,315 people have signed the petition and concerned council members in New York are now also fighting to put a stop to the site’s trafficking.

    His followers can overlook and forgive Tony for profiting off of other people’s misery. Even children’s! And when he can not profit off of Monique’s, they go postal. On her!

    These are his people.

    The Oracle | July 6, 2016 at 5:14 pm |
    Oh, guess who else fled? Took the money and run? Tony Ortega!

    Alanzo | July 6, 2016 at 4:46 pm | Reply
    There is nothing in that article at all about Tony Ortega “pimping children”.

    You are becoming unhinged, Oracle.

    Settle down. Do a locational on yourself.



    The Oracle | July 6, 2016 at 9:03 pm | Reply
    You do a location on what a newspaper staff is responsible for. Who is responsible for bringing the advertising dollars? Who is responsible for the advertising? Where is the the profit coming in advertising? How is that getting paid for? Who is responsible for that income flow? How was that money made? Prostitutes paid for that advertising either directly through their services rendered.

    Full Definition of pimp
    : a criminal who is associated with, usually exerts control over, and lives off the earnings of one or more prostitutes.

    The Oracle | July 6, 2016 at 9:16 pm | Reply
    Tony was the editor-in-chief of The Village Voice from 2007 to 2012. That is where he got his paycheck from.The editor in chief is ultimately responsible for the final product the paper produces. He sets the tone, editorial direction and policies for the publication and makes sure every issue is consistent on these measures. He is involved in budgeting and strategic planning. An editor-in-chief is a publication’s editorial leader, having final responsibility for all operations and policies. The editor-in-chief heads all the departments of the organization and is held accountable for delegating tasks to staff members and managing them.They are in charge of creating editorial boards and overseeing all department editors. The editor-in-chief has the final say on what gets published.

    The editor-in-chief is responsible for hiring, especially of the assistant editors. With the assistant editors, the editor-in-chief creates the editorial board, or outline, for each of the publication’s editions or issues. The editor-in-chief reviews all articles and photographs for accuracy as well as potential libel or slander, and provides suggestions, if needed, about any changes to make before the publication goes to press or is released digitally. Layouts and design need approval by the editor-in-chief. In the end, the editor-in-chief has the final word about which stories and photos get published.

    The editor-in-chief meets regularly with the publisher or publication board to discuss issues, plans, and other business relating to the publication. The editor-in-chief has the responsibility of drawing up budget proposals and any other information requested by the publisher. The editor-in-chief generates ideas for new ways of doing things, such as using new technology, implementing ways to increase readership, and how to utilize new media. Tough problems are often handled by the editor-in-chief, and advice about editorial issues is also provided. Whenever a social function happens, the editor-in-chief is the publication’s representative, and some travel can be required. He consistently monitors the section editors, business manager and ADVERTISING.

    Most newspapers are businesses, and they pay their expenses (such as journalists’ wages, printing costs, and distribution costs) with a mixture of subscription revenue, newsstand sales, and advertising revenue (other businesses or individuals pay to place advertisements in the pages, including display ads, classified ads, and their online equivalents).

    The Oracle | July 6, 2016 at 9:18 pm | Reply
    So YES, he lived off the earnings of children that were being prostituted.
    That does not make me “unhinged” to understand how he did it.

    The Oracle | July 6, 2016 at 9:30 pm | Reply
    “The paper has also increasingly been dealing with legal and political drama due to its online adult classifieds operation.”

    Yeah, under Tony’s command.

    Yes, Tony KNEW about this. He was well aware children were being used.

    Baby Bunker | July 7, 2016 at 1:10 am | Reply
    Thank you Alanzo. I agree.

    The Oracle | July 7, 2016 at 10:41 am | Reply

    The Oracle | July 10, 2016 at 1:35 pm | Reply
    By the way Alanzo, “Unhinged” is Tony Ortega’s thought stopping cliche.

  552. singanddanceall wrote:
    “My personal view is just because Hubbard references somebody in his books or lectures, I do not necessarily believe he read them or studied them, and possibly just used the names as positioning to make it sound like he read/studied them.”

    During the last six months I have been tracking down many of Hubbard’s references in order to get a view of his grasp of the material of history.
    My conclusion so far is similar to what you have written above. I am finding that in many cases he pulled out words and re-defined them. For example, the occult “facsimile” was expanded to “service facsimile”. So far I have about eight words which Hubbard pulled and re-defined. “Static” is from occult books and he just re-defined it. I am actually beginning to think that Hubbard read some parts of Aristotle, but very little of Plato. I think that he might have glanced at the friendship reference of Aristotle but just decided not to use it. I had the impression that Hubbard was better in the occult than he was in general history. I am beginning to think that he was weak in both. He pulled a lot of facts from occult books about torture in the Middle Ages, but he really only used the data to justify his own conclusions.
    I think Hubbard was always “buying time” . For example, he put everyone on “hold” on OT V which was essentially a minor occult action so that he could write his fiction. He sort of kept everyone at bay. Also, after reading about ancient religion, Hubbard was not even qualified to write the OT VIII student briefing about Jesus. Hubbard was reading and writing like a fifth grader. He again “buys time” by saying that the genetic entity needs to be audited. He never traces the GE back to the kabbalistic roots where he got it from. That would have been the sign of a professional which Hubbard was not. In addition, Hubbard is about the last person in the world who should talk about “the Second Coming or the anti-Christ”. He really was clueless about the historical evolution of religion. He again “buys time” by claiming that it was all implanted by space aliens. Actually, anyone who took the time to really read the history of religion could have written an exceptional “Student Briefing” far more significant than Hubbard. He just cut and paste and it is obvious.
    Btw, “Much Metta” is Buddhist for much “loving-kindness”. It is like friendship and we use it in the same way.

    Usually, we write:

  553. It has become CLEAR to me, the majority of the people in the theater out here, and in the Scientology organization, are wholly dedicated, and invested in ensuring, NOTHING can be CLEAR on ANY dynamic. If it isn’t murky, treacherous, full of mystery, shadows, unknowns, can’t know, questionable, suspicious, suspect, dubious, dark, mysterious, secret, shady, sketchy, hostile, dark, gloomy, clouded, sunless, dismal, dreary, bleak, bleeding and hopeless, it is rejected as a want or an item.

    I will leave you to get on with it.

    The Nation of Islam has got it covered.

  554. And frankly, I am beginning to understand their point of view.

  555. Any race, group or culture, who intentionally deprives others of basic human rights is a cancer to all of humanity.

    Truth is a basic human right. The pursuit of happiness is a basic human right. Curiosity is a basic human right. Identity is a basic human right.

    To live in peace is a basic human right and only violated by other humans that are anti humanity.

    An awareness of higher powers, or a higher power, or the super natural, is a basic human right. And only violated by those that are anti humanity.

    Knowledge as it can be found, is a basic human right. Science, as it is workable, is a basic human right. Education and learning with tools at hand is a basic human right.

    To notice things and see, is a basic human right.

    To know is a basic human right.

    To care about your fellow man is a basic human right.

    To live with pride and security in that pride, without condemnation from humans thinking they are Gods, is a basic human right.

    The people propping up the Church of Scientology, ESMB, Tony Ortega’s cult, are on a mission to violate and discount basic human rights. As well as the bacteria that feeds off of the anti humanity clusters.

    The problems out here are not because us, that know our rights.

    The problem is that these anti human rights people, are in the wrong group. They belong is a species that does not encompass human rights.

    On some plane, while shape shifting, they landed in a Freedom that was not comfortable for them. And their lives manifest a one long protest read against that freedom.

    As time goes by, and there is other shape shifting, they will arrive a be do have, that aligns with their wants, comfort, and needs.

  556. And for the people that were wallowing in sadism against Scientologists in the Sea Org, and for sure, Marty wasn’t one of you. You have ALWAYS been anti Scientologist.

    You were when you were a Sea Org member, otherwise you wouldn’t have the history of abuse you do. I am so done saying nothing about your claims that the “The Church of Scientology made you do it.” Bullshit. You volunteered and did it with enthusiasm. I was there for six years. I know exactly what kind of people you were, and still are. You have ALWAYS been anti Scientologist.

    Nancy Many, Aaron Saxton, and the rest of you, there were hundreds of people in the Sea Org that were not sadistic and contributing to crimes against humanity. There are thousands of people involved in Scientology that have never been you and will never be you.

    Even out of Scientology you can barely sleep at night unless you are fair gaming someone.

    The “K.S.W.” (who are that way as a ser fac) , people are just more covert at the condemnation and fair gaming. And are as “in tech” as a three year old with a chemistry kit. Others that are selling and delivering service, are as anti Scientologist as they set other Scientologists up for losses.

    I am anti, fake fucking, no responsible, snakes in the grass, bullies, criminals, con men, and sadists that set people up for losses in any arena. And I do not pretend Scientology or Scientologists or medicine or medics, or psychiatrists or counselors, or the Bible or Christians, or Farmers or any other Identity is the root cause of misery. The root cause of our misery is people with ill will, that are constantly working to set others up for losses.

    You can call yourself whatever you want. Your purpose and methods and abuse are always on full volume whatever name tag you attach to your lapel. And you are the one mocking it up.

    Anyone parked on a deserted island with you would have to find a secure location away from you to remain emotionally and spiritually intact. Perhaps even to stay alive.

    And almost everyone beyond the Scientology arena knows it. This is why most people in society handle YOU, with fair roads, and good weather.

    Jenna Miscavige, Ron Miscavige, Marc Headley, Marty Rathbun, Mike Rinder, Karen De , do not park yourselves in the same boat with these people as “Ex S.O.”.

    There is a wide difference between people out here who are former Sea Org. I’m former Sea Org and I do not belong on the same list as Aaron Saxton.

    The fact that some of them can not even be up front as an abuser without a Sea Org uniform on, and now hide under shadow identities to strike at people, is telling of their basic nature.

  557. Then you look over at ESMB and you find Lenny Zinberg and Anony Mary. Anony Mary’s contribution to Scientology was to work for the finance police and as an OSA volunteer. Wherever she could dominate and suppress. She claims to be a Christian now. When SHE was outed she attracted planetary sympathy. Then she outed me on ESMB without regard and declared me a “drama queen”. She already had a restraining order on her from a SCHOOL YARD. Right, she is as Christian as my garden fountain.

    Lenny comes out bawling on some video about one small role he played for OSA as a messenger boy. That guy was a full time bully that hazed and intimidated anyone he perceived as incapable of fighting back in social intercourse. His bawling video and testimony about redemption makes me want to barf. Now he prowls around gaslighting Marty. “I hope Marty comes to his senses. Tony is not your enemy.” Lenny, someone had to say it. You may convince everyone out here right now that you are a remorseful saint. Your most severe instances of intimidating people and bullying people, haven’t seen the light of day in this time period. It is with mercy, that I just let it go. Because you have kids. Which is more mercy than you have shown Marty or his wife. You were the Jenny Linson of the Scientology community in New York. And Al Bornstein was right behind you.

    What these people do not share with the world is that the evil of the Church of Scientology in their area, was THEM. And now they are out here doing the same fkn thing! You can not shake these people! They are like fkn LICE!

    And when you look at Tony Ortega’s history, it is only befitting that these are his crew.

    I had to say it for Marty, it was only mercy. Do not take it personally. All of these people have a long history of nothing but suppression and enturbulation and ill will. Al wrote a fuck and suck book as a legacy to his child. He was honored by Tony Ortega for it, and Tony trashed Marty’s memoir.

    This is what you have parked on your lines Marty. And these are the people that judge and condemn you. Let me tell you, do not take it personally. These are the loose cannons of any industry and would have pulled the rug out from under Gandhi given half a chance.

    If you put them in a homeless shelter to work for charity they would find a way to fuck those people up. Let it go. At the end of the day they are obstacles towards known goals. Their reality is no more valid than mine or yours. In fact, it is twisted to deflect guilt and shame onto others, for the violations they prefer not to remember and do not even the ability to take responsibility for. They have fucked themselves up worse than anything you or I would would ever consider doing to another human being. Let it go.

    I know it is like, “stop caring” and that is very hard to do.
    But the dog sitting on your couch, genetically, is 99% wolf. And it is not anti social or in an enemy condition. Your concern is for mankind. A symbiotic group. These people are not part of that group. If it does not have theta capabilities, it is actually another species.

  558. For the enemies, for all of your time and effort and energy and potential, did you unmock either one of us? Does it seem like you unmocked someone over here? Did you give it all you have yet?

    adjective: parasitic
    (of an organism) living as a parasite.

    habitually relying on or exploiting others.
    “attacks on the parasitic existence of Party functionaries”


    early 17th century: via Latin from Greek parasitikos, from parasitos ‘(person) eating at another’s table.’

  559. We only came to know who we really are, and who you really are, under pressure.

    Some people, never had any love to bring to the table.

  560. Hi George,

    I wasn’t referring to Scientology as an organization (the CoS). I meant scientology as a methodology (the tech).

    It may not be a religion if the word means the same as Christianity, or even more generally as any belief in and worship of God. But it’s a religion according to the broader definition:

    – religion: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious [definition below] attitudes, beliefs and practices
    – religious: relating or devoted to the divine or that which is held to be of ultimate importance
    (Webster’s Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary)

    I see no reason not to differentiate the practice of Scientology from the organization. Hubbard stated that all of tech is in the HCOB’s and only there. For that reason alone, it can be separated out as a subject in itself, relatively easily.

    You wrote: “This issue of cleaning up the mind so the spirit can emerge is something I do not think the founding fathers considered.”

    Well, the founding fathers weren’t and aren’t the authority on religion. They simply had their own particular set of religious beliefs, not necessarily shared by other religions of the world.

    Scientology as a methodology (tech) fits in with the concept of religion in the broad sense of “devotion to that which is held to be of ultimate importance.” And in spiritual terms, the tech is capable of (quoting your well-turned phrase again) “cleaning up the mind so the spirit can emerge.”

    In my view, Hubbard’s contribution in that respect – which was relatively significant, when you think about it – should be a mitigating factor, to whatever degree, in the context of his personal flaws and the flaws of the organization. But I don’t see much of that being done.

    At least in part, it probably comes down to what kind of personal experiences each of us had in comparison with our expectations. Some people expected more for their money than what they got and are bitter about it. Others, including some who paid out a lot of money, didn’t feel the gains could ever be valued in terms of money anyway.

    I guess what I’m basically trying to say is that all of us view things through our own lenses and filters.


  561. “It has become CLEAR to me, the majority of the people in the theater out here, and in the Scientology organization, are wholly dedicated, and invested in ensuring, NOTHING can be CLEAR on ANY dynamic.”

    Well said, Oracle. Seems that way to me too.

    But with Richard, I don’t see him that way overall. There might be some miscommunication.

  562. And if bunnyskull is not Aaron Saxton, I think it is obvious by now, bunnyskull is more than willing to hide in the fkn sand while Aaron took the credit for all of it’s mind fucking and ill will. Either way, this is the evidence of that being’s willing compliance to injustice And anyone of you on ESMB that is contributing to that, do not come out here and face off with David Miscavige like you have something over him. Let’s keep it real folks.

  563. And in case you did not know, Marty Rathbun is the ONLY trust able source for over 7000 people in the nation of Islam.

  564. Hello Larry,
    sorry for catching your question so late. It’s not always easy to follow the answeres to your comments on a blog.

    Regarding your question: You just need to google: “processing limiting beliefs” and you will find plenty of approaches, many of them not related to Scientology at all.
    There is also the “Thoughts Are Things Exercise” and some other processes from Alan Walter that can help with limiting beliefs, thoughts and considerations.

    Generally we can have limiting beliefs of which we are aware and those we are not aware of. Many limiting beliefs can stem from the culture we were raised in.
    To trace back limiting beliefs you look on the results in your life that are not satisfactory to you. Results come from actions, actions come from decisions and decisions are based on our beliefs/considerations.

    The “Code of Honor” learned in Scientology or, for that matter, any kind of moral code, can obfuscate your clarity to any situation, making you act inappropriate and produce undesirable consequences (results) for yourself and others.
    So the “beliefs” are partially held by agreements or by “inspiration” (limiting non the less).

    In a way, working with limiting beliefs is a process where you bring into awareness the “things” you are operating upon. What is unconscious becomes conscious and once you’re conscious about the “thing” you’re more able to change and transorm or let go of it altogether.

    In my understanding this is one of the main reasons for processing.


  565. Whatever you said in the above word blizzard, OK. I’m not a member of your “We already know” club and an implant is an implant.
    Playing prosecuting attorney might be fun, but it might cost you a lot of money. Running out the “prosecuting attorney” identity on one of your “L Rundowns” could get expensive.
    At some point, “The Prosecution rests its case.” ?

  566. Hi Matildi!
    Marildi wrote:
    “Well, the founding fathers weren’t and aren’t the authority on religion. They simply had their own particular set of religious beliefs, not necessarily shared by other religions of the world.”

    This statement proves that we are on different playing fields altogether. The United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights define what is accepted as religion in this land. Why would the founding fathers or anyone else care about or fully accept how people in foriegn lands define religion? The whole point of history is that valid religions sought relief here. If someone in the Netherlands defines religion as “weed”, need we accept it? The founding fathers are respected in America. So the real issue then is the definition of treason.
    If Hubbard said something like “All governments are bad”. That is treason but it is allowed by free speach. Did Hubbard take action against his own country? That is the real question.

  567. In the Scientology arena.

  568. Did you know a few anti Scientologists had the audacity to park themselves across the street from Rev Farrakhan’s house with protest signs? Fkn ignorant clowns. Those people have nothing to do with Scientology. The bullies can’t even find a right target 90% of the time, just tripping on sadism.

    Why are they across the street from a Reverend’s home because he read the Dianetics book and got something out of it? Like they think he needs to agree to part with more of his human rights?

    How fnk ignorant and socially unconscious can a person get?

  569. Please notice, the Nation of Islam people are involved with DIANETICS.

    They are already very clear about their other spiritual dynamics. You do not see people that leave the Nation of Islam running all over the streets harassing, bullying and fair gaming their own people because of their choices, and trying to impede their human rights.

    They are more civilized than that.

    They are on top of their seventh and eighth dynamics. They answer to a higher power.

    Can you assholes hell bent on standing between people and their human rights stay off their door step?

    There is nothing that needs to be “fixed” by you over there.

  570. Can you ignorant and socially unconscious people parking on Rev F’s corner stop being a discredit and embarrassment to the white race?

    One group of anti Scientologists notorious for slander and fair gaming was actually sitting up on the Internet trashing Rev F for being anti white.

    Like they are sitting on higher ground. They aren’t even aware they are the Nation of Bedlam.

    a scene of uproar and confusion.
    synonyms: uproar, pandemonium, commotion, mayhem, confusion, disorder, chaos, anarchy, lawlessness; More
    an institution for the care of mentally ill people.

  571. And this is exactly what the entire Scientology related theater from David Miscavige, through ESMB and over to Tony Ortega is identified as, over there.

    The Nation of Bedlam

    And you have no business trying to enforce that down onto those people. Or trying to drag them into your madness.

    They are not related to you in any way, shape or form. Beyond Earth people.

  572. “The United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights define what is accepted as religion in this land.”

    Fundamentalists may interpret it that way, but many others do not. The “no religious test clause” is an example of just one way others are looking at it which doesn’t align with the fundamentalist point of view. See the Wikipedia article on this clause:

    “Why would the founding fathers or anyone else care about or fully accept how people in foreign lands define religion? The whole point of history is that valid religions sought relief here.”

    The point I was making was that other religions of the world – not religions ELSEWHERE in the world but “OF the world” – are lawfully practiced here. I highly doubt you consider you’re violating the constitution by practicing Buddhism.

    “Did Hubbard take action against his own country? That is the real question.”

    Okay, but that’s a different question altogether from whether or not scientology as a methodology is a religion. Any treasonous actions Hubbard may have committed were a part of scientology as an organization and not part of the tech.

    Again, I think we need to differentiate the organization from the tech, because otherwise we would be mixing apples and oranges.


  573. And for the “Critical Thinker at Large”. These videos where you talk down to people as if they were second graders is a demeaning mockery. You followed in their steps, now you are going to teach them how to think?

    Look up the phrase:

    crit·i·cal think·ing
    noun: critical thinking
    the objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgment.

    How objective are you? You already assume people need you to teach them how to think. You are already clearly on purpose to malign anyone connected to Scientology past present or future.

    Honestly man, in some of your videos you are clearly possessed. You are not even the same person talking frame to frame. There are at least two of you. Chris, and Chrissy.

    And what critical thinking skills did you use to announce Marty Rathbun is the source of the conflict between him and Ortega? What fucking “critical thinking” skills led you to believe after his wife was stalked in the media and fair gamed for months from New York to Texas, the conflict was “generated by Mark Rathbun”?

    You must be fucking Tony Ortega!

  574. Seriously man, this is just more straight up crazy from the Nation of Bedlam.

  575. Mark C. Rathbun

    Not the same – just bitches to the same paymaster.

  576. And Dear Mr. Critical Thinker at Large, the next time someone says, “What’s up between Marty and Tony, I thought the Ex’s got along”. You just MIGHT want to point out that Tony Ortega is NOT an EX Scientologist!

  577. “Again, I think we need to differentiate the organization from the tech, because otherwise we would be mixing apples and oranges.”

    You imply here that the organization and Hubbard’s role in it could be part of treason. I would agree with that. I remember reading a lot of data in which he was a great critic of the US Government. Yea, like millions marched in the streets during Viet Nam. But Hubbard had an organization. So the organization was corrupt and dangerous.
    But the tech was not pure either. By my estimation, about 30-40% of the tech has value. I’ll grant communications, light therapy, the Grades and a few more.
    However, I think from OT III up to OT VIII, the tech is dangerous.
    Don’t you agree? I mean, I’m doing tons of research. He copied a lot and never quite got it right. Seriously, he never even duplicated the wisdom of 50,000 years. All he did was cut and paste.


  578. I’m probably just listing on why he felt compelled to bury a knife in your back.

  579. Alanzo had a Shelton video link on his blog connected to chris shelton topic, with Chris explaining to people how stupid they are. With an article.

    Chris changed the link and installed this video. So when you click on the link on Alanzo’s blog, a different video pops up. One blaming you for the conflict.

    How fkn sneaky and manipulative was that?

  580. singanddanceall

    I agree and have been doing the same, I have a couple of references where I know Hubbard researched to write a story, in his own words, and another on the same line of thought in the Heinlein Hubbard letters which are not google searchable, but cost a few bucks on the Heinlein archive site.

    I can give you those references if interested.

    While I am not a buddist, I am actually of no nothing in terms of science, religion, persuasion, etc, I obviously am offering my friendship to research, to discuss, to communicate freely.

    So in that view, I’m not quite sure how to end with a closing statement? Or if I should.

    But that doesn’t mean I wish to end our conversation. For I wish it to continue.

  581. “He copied a lot and never quite got it right. Seriously, he never even duplicated the wisdom of 50,000 years. All he did was cut and paste.”

    George, that too is beside the point of how well the methodology he developed actually works. Again, two separate issues.

    “By my estimation, about 30-40% of the tech has value. I’ll grant communications, light therapy, the Grades and a few more. However, I think from OT III up to OT VIII, the tech is dangerous.
    Don’t you agree?”

    Sounds like you agree about the workability of the whole lower bridge plus OT I and II. That’s a lot of workable tech! And according to the data I have, the gains on OT II are especially significant for most pcs, which I think you would also agree with.

    As for OT III up to OT VIII, that’s a hard thing to evaluate because of all the variables. One thing is that there has been a lot of out-tech on those levels, as I’m sure you know. Another thing to take note of is the reports from outside the CoS. The independents at Dror Center and auditors like Trey Lotz indicate that their pc’s on the upper levels are having huge gains. I heard that Trey even cleans up people who did OT VIII in the church – which, reportedly, was an incomplete level from the beginning.


  582. Hi Marildi,
    I am only talking about Hubbard and his sources. Whatever people are doing now is not relevant to the topic. Anyone is entitled to a personal opinion, including me, concerning the sources of Hubbard. Anyone can now pick up a meter and say anything about what is complete and what is not complete. In addition, Hubbard’s “tech”, no matter how it is applied, ends in a subjective state and this is more of a scientific view supported by the majority. The whole point of the anti-Scientology movement is that Hubbard did not reach expectations. There will always be those who feel “cleaned out” by Hubbard’s tech. That is expected. Besides, I think that Miscavige would even agree that those out of the cult are violating copyright.
    In the end, I will even protect Hubbard’s copyright because that is fair. How can anyone build a profession on Hubbard with moral awareness and with restraint? I would never do it. The justification is that Miscavige took away the tech and they are restoring it. It is all still Hubbard and I would protect that even though I know Hubbard is false.
    I am not trying to be a guru as you are reporting about those who still follow Hubbard. That is their right. However, I am doing tons and tons of research into Hubbard. It is very obvious that he never based his research on 50,000 years of thinking men. He took a few bits from here and there and cut and pasted a system. He charged a ton for it and it was false. Now others come along and charge donations for Hubbard’s work. The “tech” actually hit its level of value in the marketplace. In the end, it resides in a “flea market”.
    This is actually where it belongs.

  583. I’m thinking it might take a full time staff of 20, just to stay on top of the Internet, and work to keep some truth on the table.

    But if that is the case, that more or less indicates the truth is not so much wanted and needed.

    “Motive” seems to be what people are after. More motives, to harm attack and suppress.

    It is like an angry group of pirates, that want a case of rum, and you are trying to enforce some vitamin C on them. To deal with the scurvy. And you just make them angrier. At the end of the day you feel suppressive because you are running a “can’t have” on them.

    This Scientology related, parallel universe, grows darker and more viscous by the day.

    Anyone even thinking of leaving the Church, might spend a few days reading and watching what is going on over here, and be frightened to death at the thought of being swallowed up in this madness, or brutalized for stepping this way.

    It has become a full penalty, no reward universe. Left to their own devices, they have reconstructed a similar arena to the current Church of Scientology.

    “One raindrop raises the sea.”

    Just shape shifting out of this parallel universe, which has become a whirlpool, and not dragging some of it with you, will require some methodology

    Park all curiosity in another place.

    Remove the idea of, “Survival of all or none” , from your mind or you will become part of the “none”.

    Gently shift away by re positioning your anchor points onto stable and good willed people who have clean motives in being.


    “Give more, take less.
    Others first, self last.
    Observe, listen, and learn.
    Do one thing at a time.

    Sing every day.
    Exercise imagination.”

    ― James Gurney

  584. And as much as is humanly possible, keep your business off the streets. So you, your family , and your children, do not become an anchor point for this strange anti magic to attach itself to.

    It thrives on any of your business hitting the streets. And if it doesn’t hit the streets, your business will be invented and manufactured and put on the streets. But to the extent it is synthetic, the anti magic is removed from your reality. And you.

  585. This is not surrender. Or withdrawing. The “honeypot” in that parallel universe, is a synthetic ARC.

    There is no genuine affinity. It is a solid menacing particle parked in an enemy or treason condition.

    Any genuine or sincere ARC, will be alter ised into a synthetic value to add expansion to that universe.

    So, the truth and the facts and the reality, only act as a melting force on the synthetic. Like fire burning polyester. And this threatens to burn the house down. And this threatens that parallel universe.

    So what is invented and installed there as “truth”, isn’t something real you want to take home with you at night anyway.

    The affinity is synthetic. The reality is synthetic. The communication is purposed to alter is affinity and reality into synthetic values.

    It isn’t a matter of surrender, or withdrawing, or becoming apathetic.

    It is a matter of moving away from the honeypot which actually contains an empty pot.

    Simple farmers do not toil the land to harvest inedible weeds.

    Simple gamblers just stop losing by not throwing coins at a slot machine.

    Simple peasants just keep warm by closing the front door.

    A simple man does not come home with a loaf of bread, and eat the bread wrapper instead of the bread.

  586. “You know what a shit barometer is bub? Measures the shit pressure in the air. Listen! Hear that?

    Sounds of the whispering winds of shit! Beware…shit winds are comin’.” –Jim Lahey–Trailer Park Supervisor


  587. Hi George,

    It seems contradictory to say: “It is very obvious that [Hubbard] never based his research on 50,000 years of thinking men. He took a few bits from here and there and cut and pasted a system. He charged a ton for it and it was false.”

    I don’t see how you can say the tech was “false” when you’ve already agreed that a large portion (if not the majority of it) was quite workable. And the fact that the tech does have a high degree of workability not only logically supports the idea that it was based on valid principles but, if anything, tends to indicate Hubbard did stand on the shoulders of thinkers before him and that he adopted the principles accumulated over the millennia.

    In any case, what we do know for sure is that Hubbard was the one who devised a system for applying certain workable principles – no matter where they originated – and that this application was his unique contribution. Why not give the devil his due? 🙂

    In other words, the research you are doing on “Hubbard and his sources” is totally valid, but the findings don’t need to minimize Hubbard’s contributions – which, once again, stand separate from what he charged for services.

    I’m basically saying you should keep all these separate things separate, as otherwise you might come across as biased or bitter or illogically Begging the Question. JMO


  588. Hi Marildi!
    “I don’t see how you can say the tech was “false” when you’ve already agreed that a large portion (if not the majority of it) was quite workable.”

    None of the “tech” ever produced to expectation of the lure that Hubbard used.
    Some parts of it, maybe 35%, could in a very light way, be workable in minor therapy. The idea of workable must be measured relative to the overly ambitious claims by Hubbard. The key test: Would I ask for a refund if I could?
    Yes, Yes. In fact Scientology owes us $6,000 from my wife’s account which they have refused to pay for 25 years.
    Btw, I never said majority. You made a head calculation. The point is very clear. Hubbard said his tech was “priceless” NOooooo way!
    My eyes are red, my coffee pot is humming, my laptop is weary – Alas the joy of research into 50,000 years of thinking men. Thank god he did not include women as well.
    I think Hubbard was in some sort of a trance when he said 50,000. That is way before recorded history. Anyway, I have read and re-read many of the great classics by Plato etc. In the end, Hubbard’s statement turns into a trap for him. In 50,000 years we have had some miracles. Hubbard said he could produce miracles but they were of his won definition – Like cleaning someone up. So in the end, he did not duplicate the 50,000. If he had duplicated them, he would have been wise beyond belief and not subject to stress and he would have delivered what he promised or not promise what he could have delivered.
    I have also been keeping up on the latest research into religion which is going on among scholars. Sorry to say this but it does not look good for Scientology. Actually, there is no religion ever recorded which has all of the negatives of a Scientology. Perhaps it might take 50 years, but Scientology will probably be re-defined into a cult or a therapy business.
    Rather than using 50,000 years of thinking men, it looks in the end that Scientology is one man thinking about Egyptian Gods and Kabal. You could add in a few others like Tao etc., as you please, but these are far too kind in nature to capture the “real tech”.
    This is not intended to tarnish what Hubbard really did accomplish. I did get some benefit at the lower levels. That could have been the placebo gig.
    Anyway, I have a few more 1,500 page books to read about thinking men.

    PS I am not irritated by Hubbard. Also, you can put word in my mouth. I have 50,000 years of thinking men to correct it all!

  589. Hi again, George!

    “I think Hubbard was in some sort of a trance when he said 50,000. That is way before recorded history.”

    Talk about “way before recorded history” – was the Buddha in a trance when he claimed to have recalled multiple Big Bangs? Who’s to know what Hubbard may have recalled, or simply had intuition or insight into, a “mere” 50,000 years ago?

    “I am not irritated by Hubbard. Also, you can put word in my mouth. I have 50,000 years of thinking men to correct it all!”

    Very witty, and “irritated” may not be the right word – but you do seem resentful that you didn’t get what you expected and on top of it paid more than you thought it was worth.

    “My eyes are red, my coffee pot is humming, my laptop is weary – alas, the joy of research into 50,000 years of thinking men. Thank god he did not include women as well.”

    More wonderful writing (really) – but alas, you must be forgetting about a particular use of the word “man” – as in, “all men are created equal” (ahem 😉 ).

    From – “man: a member of the species homo sapiens or all members of this species collectively without regard to sex: ‘prehistoric man’ ”

    Actually, speaking of miracles, word clearing is just one piece of tech that has literally been described by many students and pcs as “miraculous.”

    “Anyway, I have a few more 1,500 page books to read about thinking men.”

    More power to you, George. Enjoy!


  590. With regards to journalistic sadism practices, using journalism to fair game and harm people.. even Jimmy Kimmel , ten years ago, pointed out the injustice of placing people in danger by publishing their whereabouts. And he wasn’t even speaking of children. As in what Ortega did to the Duggan children. Duggan has been declared fair game along with his children. A man who has contributed greatly to the fourth dynamic in terms of science.

    I am not just a protester about such matters because of a Scientology issue. This was considered disgraceful ten years ago. That people on ESMB are so disconnected from main stream human culture they have no problem spreading your home across the board with slander and setting you up, is not a Scientology issue at all.

    Apparently some laws are needed to pass through congress, with restraints, before some folk can be restrained from harming others in this way.

    Don’t take what has happened to you personally. Ten years ago people were made socially aware on late night television of this seedy underbelly of existence. And profiting off the misery of others, through stalking, setting people up for losses, is beginning to recoil.

  591. Perhaps the people in the “Church” of Scientology should take note as well, before publishing your customer’s counseling notes as a form of domestic terrorism.

  592. Interesting to notice Ortega, ESMB, and the C of S, all indulge in invasions of privacy as a form of punishment and domestic terrorism.

  593. I love him, but he did a NO NO

  594. Marty Rathbun, I like this thread. I need to prove my opiniom with facts and the other side has to do that too. You know that I am on my best when that is going on.

    Thank you, and do not hesitate to scorn me or beat me down.

    I am going to have a real good opponent with Hobson. I respect him so fucking much.

  595. “Incidentally, labelling people as crazy and delusional is an age-old ‘solution’ for suppressing voices that might upset a single-story narrative that is profitable to some.”

    I have to thank you Mart Rathbun for not doing that with me,

    That is why I can post this;

    Proof that: Die Antwoord is not racist:

  596. I just noticed Ortega wrote about the Gawker today also. Does not mention the victims. Keeping it to a single story line.

    Interesting how he can focus on Scientology victims, and never foray into the victims created through his career choices.

  597. In the Nation of Bedlam, he is the, “Merchant of Menace”.

  598. (Likening him to Shakespeare’s Shylock and his determination to exact revenge from Christians.)

  599. Yes I am a criminal to still believe in Human Kindness

  600. He is wholly “revenge” motivated. Which is why he can not produce and unbiased piece of journalism.

    His cult, and ESMB, David Miscavige and OSA, are revenge motivated. The purpose is revenge.

    They have gone blind with revenge motivation. Willing to target anyone including children, and single women with children, and mothers of children. Families.


    1. To inflict punishment.

    Revenge has nothing to do with justice. It is a need to make someone else pay for your choices. To suffer with your consequences as well.

    It drives people into criminality.

    “Serial killing is not about sex at all, but about power and control and revenge on society.”
    —Pat Brown

    Pat Brown is an educator in victimology, behavioral profiling, threat analysis, and psychopathy.

  601. The justice penalties in the “Church” of Scientology, are all about exacting revenge.

    Most of the people out here throwing stones at the “Church”, were the ones enforcing it.

    The rest are just wallowing in it daily on a volunteer basis.

  602. Seemingly oblivious that you are the one that has done the most to bring an end to it.

    Now, they target you.

    This is how fucking insane, blind, and amnesic people can get with injustice, once they dedicate themselves to revenge.

  603. In this last episode of “Who so we get next?”. Ortega set you up, and gave others motive for revenge, by announcing Monique insanely and unjustly fucked over her hard working and devoted attorneys. And then prospered.

    He easily shifted his cult into thinking their support was actually for Ray Jeffries and he had been done wrong. Then he just opened the gates and turned them lose.

    All you have to do to control these people is trigger their revenge buttons. Just like today’s politician.

    Fortunately, Ortega’s sphere of influence only extends out to about 100 to 200 people. But you see the damage they can do given a bridge into your life. And when they are willing to go after children or use children as weapons, they have distanced themselves from all that held promise for them as potential assets in the group of mankind.

  604. And this is Ortega’s influence upon people. And I think it is very similar to Miscavige’s influence on people.

  605. Not that I meant to leave out bunnyskull. It is the same social science. Motivate by re stimulate to hate. Hitler had a wider sphere of influence.

  606. They perform this ritual under the banner of “educating” people. And maybe the people who are prone to be motivated this way, after time have issues with real learning, or awareness or social consciousness. They become suspect of “education”. And develop learning disabilities.

    It is kind of a nasty and covert way to do people in. If you can make them stupid they are very manageable.

  607. “Talk about “way before recorded history” – was the Buddha in a trance when he claimed to have recalled multiple Big Bangs? Who’s to know what Hubbard may have recalled, or simply had intuition or insight into, a “mere” 50,000 years ago?”

    Yes, Buddha was in a trance. It is just another word that actually can be used in translation. Not really a big deal what you call it. So I’m not saying anything negative about Hubbard.
    Actually, I never would have said a negative thing about Hubbard ever if he would have just gotten himself off the money kick. Look at every philosopher that ever lived and you see they charged some money. None had the greed of Hubbard.
    Plato once remarked that even when his predictions were correct, most people did not follow him. So maybe Hubbard was lucky to get what he did get.

  608. It is wrong in any universe, to exploit people who are uneducated or unaware of these conditions.

  609. George: “Actually, I never would have said a negative thing about Hubbard ever if he would have just gotten himself off the money kick.”

    How fair the prices were wasn’t everyone’s yardstick for the value of the tech. Some who paid a lot were still quite satisfied with the result in and of itself.

    The other yardstick you’ve mentioned is whether or not the tech delivered what was expected. Here again, some were happy even if it didn’t meet their expectations – or what the reg lead them to believe they would get. With others, the results were beyond anything they had imagined

    In cases where the tech hasn’t met what was expected, I believe the expectation was to attain “OT powers” – i.e. super-human powers. Do you know of any other unfulfilled expectation than basically that?

    It seems to me that both of those yardsticks for evaluating the tech are oriented around “mest values” – have a lot of money and be better than the next guy – rather than to achieve spiritual awareness as one’s basic purpose for doing scientology.


  610. Hi M,
    I get the impression that you were on staff and that you saw a variety of public pass through with different attitudes. This is fine. However, I should ask in all seriousness, if you were confronted youself with raising the money for your personal goals. You probably ran into a lot of affluent people who had large reserves. My experience was that there always were the “whales” who floated the ship. I remember a lot of satisfied people, but then again that is not the current environment. People were climbing the walls in the late 80’s. That turned into just hype.
    If anyone of normal frame of mind was interested in “spiritual awareness” as a goal, I would think that auditing might be a rather expensive solution.
    It does not even seem to me that any sort of yardstick is even necessary to measure the value of the tech. It would then be a personal experience.
    I would be curious to know where all of these satisfied people are now located. If they are in the Church, they must be experiencing either a bliss or a Miscavige.

    “In cases where the tech hasn’t met what was expected, I believe the expectation was to attain “OT powers” – i.e. super-human powers. Do you know of any other unfulfilled expectation than basically that?”

    The idea of OT powers from Scientology is so far back, back in history that the question need not even be answered. After all of the events of the last 25 years, I think it is obvious that Scientology just goes in circles.
    The question of an unfulfilled expecations is also not even an issue. This question is being asked by an organization which cannot deliver. So we need to look past yardsticks and expectations. It is now necessary to take a really hard look at what Scientology really was.
    It was a unique movement that filled a special time slot. Hubbard was the transition figure from the occult into the modern age. People of my generation were causght between developing science and the occult. Hubbard was the figure of rebellion fighting modern science. He only lasted for a few years. Before being chained by endless confusion, his therapies provided some mental relief. Superman filled the movies and Scientology was just plain exciting. Reallity set it when Hubbard started his endless research. It became clear that he could not deliver. True to form, Hubbard rode away in the sky in a chariot.
    If you are really interested in OT powers, you can start by putting Hubbard to the side and looking at 50,000 years of thinking men.

  611. Regarding 50,000 years of thinking men – From the Neo-Tech philosophy presented by Frank R. Wallace, he presents the idea that metaphorical thinking was an evolutionary occurence that happened (without digging into his numbers) maybe 5,000 years ago.

    This occurred when increasing population pushed people into larger and larger groups forcing an evolutionary adaptation for survival. That evolutionary happening would of course allow those who could think in metaphors to become the dominant species.

    One cave man might communicate to another that he ran from the cave to the lake, but ran “like a rabbit” from the cave to the lake came later.

    I don’t see any contradiction in this to the concept of multiple big bangs or other viewpoints.

  612. Marildi,
    I beg your pardon for the numerous “typos” in the above reply. I wrote it in the early morning.


    You caught me reading Plato who is actually very interesting and I was writing in haste. I need to get back to the Mac which can check spelling.

    This may sound strange but I think that Scientology, even with the millions of words from Hubbard, was presented as an incomplete, over-simplified philosophy. In the light of professional philosophers of the last 3,000 years, Scientology looks like only a weak outline that cannot support weight.
    Science fiction was used to explain issues tackled by brave philosophers. In a sense, Science Fiction was Hubbard’s refuge. It gave him the answers he needed like – Christianity is all bad so let’s just say that it was implanted with a random religious statement generator. Space aliens created a sort of Tower of Babel. Might be so but that random statement generator produced something cool which Hubbard missed.
    Back to the books!

  613. Hi G,

    Yes, I was on staff and then joined the SO even though I had money on account for most of my bridge. And no, I didn’t run into a lot of affluent people, even at Flag where a very small minority of them were “whales.”

    G: “I remember a lot of satisfied people, but then again that is not the current environment.”

    My point exactly – that there were a lot of satisfied people, regardless of what is going on now, and that this needs to be fully taken into account in any accurate analysis of scientology.

    G: “I would be curious to know where all of these satisfied people are now located. If they are in the Church, they must be experiencing either a bliss or a Miscavige.”