You May Be Right

The verdict is in from the anti-scientology community (ASC), Marty Rathbun is crazy.

You can read and hear all about it across several ASC forums.

I accept the diagnosis as it pertains to the scientology (pro and anti) universe.  Insanity is loosely defined as not seeing or accepting the world as it is generally seen and accepted by the majority of people.

I noted in one of my books that the most valuable thing I got from my scientology experience was the ability to disagree.  That is, freedom from the automatic subconscious acceptance of the way others might want me to see or think.  Today I value that faculty more than ever. Modern science has come to understand that people think in narratives.  They accept them and create them and then judge new experience and data against them – much of that narrative building occurring sub consciously.  I reject the anti-scientology narrative as being at least as inaccurate, exaggerated, partisan and hysterical as the official scientology narrative.  That rejection of the former in no way implies an endorsement of the latter.

I find ASC’s resort to the ‘he’s crazy’ defense/offense to be apropos for a perhaps-final teaching moment in this milieu. I will share it notwithstanding the wave of ‘he’s nuts’ that doing so will inevitably provoke.

Those who have observed me and my detractors for very long will recall that the church of scientology preceded ASC in invoking the insanity defense/offense against me.  Remember the words of the immortal Tommy Davis: “He’s a f____ing lunatic!” As truth slowly struggles to the surface as it sometimes is forced to do, I believe you will find that there were two reasons for the copycatting.

First, the folks running the ASC agenda and authoring its narrative (including the insanity defense/offense) are OSA (Office of Special Affairs) trained and bred.  They often boast of their OSA expertise.  One of them makes good money plying it; another dishes out good money lording it over people. They liberally use that acumen to attack those whom they brand as the attackers. They most spiritedly – overtly and covertly – attack the credibility of anyone who might spoil their pity party by spreading that horrible disinfectant called truth.

Second, the ASC agenda setters have not had an original thought sprout in their heads as long as I have known them (and that is a very long time).  They are and have been wholly unoriginal creatures of stimulus-response thought. I only say this after making extraordinary efforts with each to coax them to rise above such patterns – and only now that they’ve decided no good deed ought go unpunished.

And so, some of the conspiracy chatter on ESMB and Underground Bunker that OSA has infiltrated and seized the ASC conversation – requiring vigilant censorship measures by Tony Ortega and Madam ESMB – contains a grain of truth.

What remains to be seen is whether it is the old OSA or the new OSA and whether the former more effectively influences the latter or vice versa.  In either event, my guess is that the losers will be those who cling desperately to their rusting firearms (and narratives) failing to recognize that the war has been over for several years now.

Then again, both Scientology and ASC may be right, I may be crazy.

261 responses to “You May Be Right

  1. Michael Fairman

    I aspire to be as “crazy” as you (and Billy Joel)

  2. Sharon Sigmond

    I find you to be the most honest and sane person I’ve come across in a long time. And I appreciate your insight to various issues, finding value in them . Just letting you know.

  3. To give credit where credit is due, and condemnation where condemnation is due, I learned from scientology, to question everything and think for myself. As strange as it may seem, I learned what TRUTH is, from scientology. Although I had to filter it out from a lot of false and limiting data, and overall just plain BS. I learned how to find the truth of anything, with what I learned in scientology. There is a formula for finding the truth of something.

    As a result of what I learned from scientology, I learned that everything the average person knows is wrong.

    I learned that the average person is not qualified to comment on anything.

    I learned that the average person is only intelligent enough to argue to defend his ignorance, his stupidity, his overts and his right to be that way.

    This is nothing new.

    Shakespeare knew that in his time.

    He said, something to the effect of, and did it so eloquently and succinctly:

    Oh, proud man, proud man, dressed in little brief authority, most assured of what he is least aware.


  4. Marty: “I noted in one of my books that the most valuable thing I got from my scientology experience was the ability to disagree. That is, freedom from the automatic subconscious acceptance of the way others might want me to see or think. Today I value that faculty more than ever.”

    A statement evident in itself.

  5. Mark C. Rathbun

    Your daughter is no slouch.

  6. Gerhard Waterkamp

    As my personal decompression progressed I realized the way out of Scientology requires to decontaminate ones mind from ‘Scientology thinking’.
    ‘Scientology thinking’ is like a virus that takes over the mind and invades the personality of an infected with the same type of psychosis where it came from.
    I saw many players pro and contra acting out the same psychosis just with different vectors.

    One has to find oneself again after the mess one got into and regain a life free of any references to Scientology. For those who have not realized it, Scientology does not matter it is blatantly irrelevant. (That may be different if you have loved ones connected with it but only for that reason)
    Many are stuck in the fabric of this psychosis and either donate for ideal orgs or congregate in “anti groups” like the Ortega cult.

    A pity so many life’s get wasted on that subject.

  7. I absolutely disagree that you reffered to gossip as black magic…..
    Michael W.Ford wrote books that have the same kaliber as the books of L.Ron Hubbard, u see…There is everything wrong with using the word or the color black as a metaphore for negative & destrucive phenomena.
    If my opinion about ‘black’ makes me non-human then the better for me !

  8. It is not Marty who is crazy it is that damn Oracle

  9. Mark C. Rathbun

    Darkness within darkness – the gate to all understanding. – Lao Tzu

  10. Michael Fairman

    With all due respect, Dio, what a load of crap. The “average” person? Who is the “average” person. What does that even mean? What your post reeks of is an arrogance, that you perhaps learned from Scientology.

    Here is Shakespeare’s quote in full:
    But man, proud man,
    Drest in a little brief authority,
    Most ignorant of what he’s most assur’d;
    His glassy essence, like an angry ape,
    Plays such fantastic tricks before high heaven,
    As make the angels weep.

    The irony here that Shakespeare is speaking about a person like yourself.

  11. Count me in! (and turn up the Billy Joel)

  12. Nothing wrong with crazy. I kinda like crazy. 😄

  13. I am not anti-Scientology and I do not think Marty is insane. Just in case anyone was wondering, which I doubt. I certainly do not agree with a lot of Scientology doctrine when it leads to abuse and criminality however the parts that do no harm I have no issue with. The individual Scientologist has my full support as I want them to share the knowledge and gains that I now have. Marty insane? Oh no he isn’t!

  14. Comment for Dio above: the average person thinks he is above average intelligence.

  15. Michael,

    The “average person” refers to people like you.


  16. From group processing, to group gaslighting. And everywhere you go, the group is all, and the individual is nothing.

  17. Mark C. Rathbun

    You need to wake up and smell the coffee. I know the man, and he is anything but average; more like extraordinary.

  18. Michael Fairman

    Dio has to meet Norton, an “average” guy, who would quickly disabuse Mr, Ms, or Mrs Dio, that there ain’t no such animal.

  19. I am not asleep and there is no coffee to smell.



  20. Greg Schilling

    Marty, Spoken like a Zen Master…you are running circles around scn/anti scn. It is fascinating to observe. Do you ever plan to write another book about Scn? Best, Greg

  21. Mark C. Rathbun

    One of these days…bang…zoom

  22. Mark C. Rathbun

    Crazy like a fox.

  23. Spoken like a Zen Master

  24. Sharon Sigmond

    She is definitely her own person. 🙂

  25. “One has to find oneself again after the mess one got into and regain a life free of any references to Scientology. For those who have not realized it, Scientology does not matter it is blatantly irrelevant.”

    Don’t you post a lot on Mike Rinder’s blog, in reference to “irrelevant” Scientology?

  26. Mark C. Rathbun

    Which in this day and age is a rare breath of fresh air.

  27. Mark C. Rathbun

    In a world full of people, there’s only some want to fly, isn’t that crazy?

  28. Absolutely. Your blog was the only sane place on the Internets regarding the issues surrounding Scientology, and if it hadn’t have been for you and your work, I would still be out, but I would not have been vocal about it.

    And why is that? It is because you have always been honest about where you are, and what you saw. Despite incredible provocation, you never allowed hatred to color your point of view. And because of that, you documented the “crazy” on the part of the church. And, lately, you have been the catalyst for the crazy on the ASC.

    It has been 6 years this month that I posted my first public post on the issues around Scientology, on your blog. During those six years, my viewpoint expanded to not what I experienced as a Scientologist, but opened my eyes to what others have experienced. My experiences were on the main, positive. The exceptions were my staff experiences, and occasional run-ins with reges, recruiters, over-zealous MAAs, and Scientologist-owned companies that frankly did not follow “wog” law (like payroll, safety, tax, and labor laws). But Scientology, on the whole, as a subject, has been beneficial to me. But I was lucky, working with good people, who chose to apply Scientology for good things. But, in the end, the negative side has caught up with me – no more best friend. Good friends I likely will never talk to again. People lost to cancer because they neglected their bodies and did not go to doctors. People lost to the church because they they are in deathly fear of “losing their eternity” and, of course, having to pass myriad sec checks. And because they closed their eyes to the obvious.

    And I cannot deny that others have had horrific experiences with Scientology. We (those who found value in Scn) all like to think that these horrific experiences were people misapplying the tech, etc., etc., but there is no denying they happened, and that the tech as written by Hubbard did not have the means to adequately address this. Sea Org atrocities did not start with Mr. David Miscavige. They started with Ron. It has been hard to reconcile some really good things with some really evil things. In all the six years, I never abandoned what I knew to be true – but I also allowed my scope of what is true to expand.

    So, this was my journey in a nutshell. And yours is and was fascinating to me – and you were and are always honest about where you are.

    As far as crazy goes, I’ve always been crazy, but it keeps me from going insane 😉

  29. Here they come. Like drowning rats crawling off a sinking ship. “it wasn’t me it wasn’t me!” All selfie evidence to the contrary.

  30. Very well said, as usual.

    “In all the six years, I never abandoned what I knew to be true – but I also allowed my scope of what is true to expand.”

    You may be crazy but you ain’t stupid. 🙂

  31. Mark C. Rathbun

    It usually takes the ASC troll patrol four hours to come out in force. They have to wait for their talking points from the Roger Ailes of ASC.

  32. Sam Freeman | July 19, 2016 at 4:18 pm | Reply
    Here they come. Like drowning rats crawling off a sinking ship. “it wasn’t me it wasn’t me!” All selfie evidence to the contrary.

    Evidence? What evidence? I see no evidence! Ah, there is no evidence.

  33. Gaslighting – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Gaslighting or gas-lighting is a form of mental abuse in which a victim is manipulated into doubting their own memory, perception, and sanity.

    This gaslighting flows on an evil intent. Trying to prove someone is crazy is not a holy purpose. Demeaning your fellow man degrades the Earth on a whole. Doing it while professing care for the fourth dynamic is as synthetic as it gets.

    The worst ,most artful and most covert, was someone recklessly sending out a slew on KR emails declaring me a “CS 22 Case” knowing they would slide right into into my in box from the people he sent them to.

    The last two sociopaths I stumbled across and confronted, the first efforts to fight back, and protect their reputations, were to send out emails suggesting I was insane, to discredit my knowledge, and me.

    The easiest way to respond to something you have no fkn excuse for, is to just accuse the knowing person of being insane.

    Mental institutions are full of people that have been convinced. This is the product. Disabled people. That’s real fkn holy isn’t it?

    Gaslighting is the attempt of one person to overwrite another person’s reality. If it can not be done through reasoning and communication and good will, the gaslighter works to overwhelm others by restimulation. Until the victim has no grasp on reality. To put the victim out of ARC with themselves, and the world. And to put the world out of ARC with the victim. This is a ruthless, unjust, immoral and unholy path to “winning” at anyone else’s expense.

    It is holier to choke the life out of someone, than to convince them to part with their sanity.

    And if you are parked in bed with a person that is willing to go that low, you are not parked in bed with any friend of yours either.

  34. “I noted in one of my books that the most valuable thing I got from my scientology experience was the ability to disagree. That is, freedom from the automatic subconscious acceptance of the way others might want me to see or think. Today I value that faculty more than ever. Modern science has come to understand that people think in narratives. They accept them and create them and then judge new experience and data against them – much of that narrative building occurring sub consciously. I reject the anti-scientology narrative as being at least as inaccurate, exaggerated, partisan and hysterical as the official scientology narrative. That rejection of the former in no way implies an endorsement of the latter.”

    Bravo, Mark Rathbun.

    This is exactly where I’m at.

    You said it perfectly. This is where you realize that you don’t fit in any more. You start getting banned from message boards and blogs. People start thinking you’re OSA, but they can’t quite really believe it.

    All they know is that you are not interested or talking about the right things, and you seem more than slightly sacrilegious to them. It’s like a 2 dimensional worm being faced with the 3rd dimension: They have no way to process you.

    So you get the same unimaginative people spewing the same narratives from the same old ideology over and over.

    They flip their lids.

    Because they don’t know where to put you.


  35. “You may be right
    I may be crazy
    But it just may be a lunatic you’re looking for
    Turn out the light
    Don’t try to save me
    You may be wrong for all I know
    But you may be right” Billy Joel

    Mark, since we did our thingie together, I’ve changed my life just about 100% – Talk about moving out of fixed conditions and into the present reality. You will always have my thanks, my appreciation and my admiration, because you deserve it, in reality, right now.

  36. Mark C. Rathbun

    Thanks Tara. I appreciate it.

  37. Mark C. Rathbun

    Stop being so nice. You might cause the conspiracy theorists sleepless nights.

  38. Alanzo is lovely 🙂 And smart, and a true gentleman. It’s been a real pleasure getting to know him on Ducks and reading his blogs. Thanks for sticking around through all this madness Alanzo – God knows why we do it 😀

  39. Hi Tara. I meant to reply to your last post but I never got back to it. Hugs back. Lovely to ‘see’ you again ❤

  40. There stands the emperor naked and doing what he does best for all the world to see. I don’t need to prove anything – people have already drawn their own conclusions or fallen in line with yours so I care not about your unsolicited meaningless drivel either way. Adios!

  41. The video below was one of the worse cases of gaslighting I have seen yet. While ranting that Marty is doing nothing for mankind, (and implying she is doing everything for mankind), inside the rant she enters the phrase, “Why don’t you just end it?” Like, she is going to re stimulate some purpose for suicide.


    I can always figure out when it is an OSA staff member addressing my comments, because it is obvious they have culled my P.C. folders and have selected button words. And they push those words in their comments.

    Whatever button is pushed on you, they pulled it from their files. This is gaslighting in it’s finest art form.

    Using words to undermine you. Restimulate you. Introvert you and discredit you. These are professional mind fuckers that pretend they have ARC and concern for the human race. That what they are doing is for some beneficial cause for mankind. The damage they do, is the reason they can peddle mental health solutions to begin with. Do you think they want to wake up in a world where everyone is happy and sane? Do you think a heart surgeon wants to wake up to find there is a cure for heart disease?

  42. Chee Chalker

    For the record, I don’t think you are crazy. I think your behavior, at timeshas, been odd and maybe a little crazy.

    As far the Bunker, you have not been mentioned much as of late. In fact, someone tried to troll just yesterday with the ‘I just went over to Marty’s blog…. he’s (fill in the blanks)’!

    Last I checked, no one had taken the bait and engaged this person.

    And you are not mentioned much over at Mike’s blog either.

    Esmb had a thread for a while, but that seems to have disappeared.

    So, I’m not sure what exactly you are referring to.

    As far as Scientology teaching you to disagree…… really? Did you disagree much with Miscavige? When he went on Nightline, did you tell him he looked like a nut job or did you tell him he ‘hit it out of the park’?

    When Miscavige told you Mike Rinder was a SP/mother f#-$%ibg pie-face, did you say ‘No, sir, I disagree. I think Mike is a good man doing a difficult job very well.’

    When COB told you to knock the $hit out of someone, did you disagree or do what you were told ?
    Was/ is anyone allowed to disagree with LRH or COB?

  43. Exactly, Grasshopper.


  44. We had this conversation some time ago.

    The KSW nazis think I’m evil/insane for not following in lockstep to their version of things.

    The ASC think I’m deluded/insane for seeing any value in any of it.

    The decision to simply see what I see and make my own judgments lost me a lot of “friends.”

    Seem to have gained a lot of new ones though, so I guess it’s alright.

  45. As far as you OSA true blue Loyal officers, fanatical extremists, here is something you probably haven’t thought about.

    If you are all charged up on Scientology, either for it or against, you have a big read on it. This is why the fanatics can switch to rabidly against it on a dime.

    BOTH SIDES have charge on it.

    If Marty is blase about it, he doesn’t have a charged read on the subject!!!!

    DUH!!!! You fanatics have just as much charge on it as the anti people! It is a charged item both ways. YOU have charge on Scientology too! It is not just the anti people.

    The only people on this Earth that are not heavily charged on Scientology, that actually have a clean read on Scientology, are the people that are blase about it.

  46. I learned that the average person is not qualified to comment on anything..

    In a sense I concur, but to a lesser degree. I would say the average person, even if qualified, rarely uses those qualifications before commenting. It’s much easier to comment intuitively than to rigorously examine an issue. It’s also been observed that our minds are naturally biased towards finding errors or faults. It seems a troublesome combination.

  47. This should also give you a clue that David Miscavige has more charge on Scientology than Tony Ortega does.

  48. And that Marty has a cleaner read on the subject than you do.

  49. No Mark, no more crazy than anyone in the Org..anism. Ever since I came in the second time it hasn’t sat right. The first time in the 80’s, the second in 2008. The first time I was in class 5 Org then onto S.O. They worked us on RPF til we were dead nearly. Back then it was a bit different, it felt better. Ron was still alive and there wasn’t the incessant need for money for them. Then Ronny died and some fool took over. It was time to go. Zoom to 2008 and then it was..” have you got your Basics?” And your lectures and congresses…?” In other words can we have your money. And now in 2016 it’s…”you need your ACC’s, they’re only 9 grand! No Mark, you’re not crazy, I am and so is everyone who listens to David Miscabbage.

  50. And while both sides are out here finger pointing at Marty with accusations, he seems to be the only one in this theater with a clean read.

  51. Mark C. Rathbun

    Hi Les.

  52. Marty wrote:

    “Remember the words of the immortal Tommy Davis: “He’s a f____ing lunatic!”

    But you missed the best part, Marty.

    Tommy actually screamed:

    “He’s a fucking lunatic and a whole-track prison warden!!”

    This is one of the best, and most unhinged, statements in all of Scientology dead-agent history. It is actually the creme-de-la-creme of L Ron Hubbard’s Fair Game technology. If you were a Scientologist hoping to make it to OSA Int, and you needed to clay demo how to handle Scientology’s critics, this is what you would show.

    Tommy made this statement as the Chief Spokesman for the Church of Scientology while he was knowingly being recorded in front of Lawrence Wright and all 5 of their fact checkers, and their team of lawyers at The New Yorker.

    Truly an emerald moment in a shining history of luminous insanity by the Church of Scientology.

    And we were there.

    As recent history has proven, it just doesn’t get any better than that.


  53. Mark C. Rathbun

    I’m not so sure about that. Do you know which OSA Bunnyskull is with, e.g.?

  54. Mark C. Rathbun

    You are such a good little cultie.

  55. Mark C. Rathbun

    When the whole story emerges, this from Tony O “I think this is the most absurd action by a client that I have seen in my 20 years of practicing, except for actions taken by prisoners or mentally disturbed plaintiffs”, given the target and given the actual situation he was false reporting on, will be right up there with Tommy. What’s more, they had the same muzzling motivation.

  56. Tony Ortega and Tommy Davis.

    Maybe they should have lunch and compare notes.


  57. Chee Chalker

    And, as an aside, you don’t have to call me names. After all, I was simply DISAGREEING with you that Scientology teaches people to disagree.
    Unless they are disagreeing with reality and common sense…..that Scientology teaches in spades.

  58. How droll – I’ve been thinking about Fox News – how it seems to have taken what might have been a moderately thinking population and turned it into morons – lock stepping to whatever beat the Powers that Be dictate — try talking any sense with someone who watches Fox network. Impossible.

    And some people have it on 24/7 — they are truly hypnotized living dead people

    And now you point out that ASC is monitored/run by it’s own Roger Ailes.

    Wowsy — will this person soon be exposed as a serial sexual deviate, as well? No doubt


  59. To The Oracle: What you say is so true. I’ve been reading Marty’s blog for a long time now, and it is so clear that he is not in a games condition regarding scientology, dm, the scientology fanatics who harass and attack, or the haters of scientology who can’t differentiate and who want to stir up the field of ex church folks. It is apparent that he has moved up more than a little higher; he towers above all the ridge makers.

  60. Hang in there. You have a lot of support and people that care about you and your family and appreciate you and all that you have done for so many.

  61. Three thumbs up. Simple. To the point. And you make some excellent points – thank you 🙂

  62. This is like the ‘Truth Rundown’ all over again.

  63. Better be crazy then stupid.

  64. Well, it seems I just had Bunny Skull all wrong. She is just friends with Lenny Zinberg’s crew in New York.

    Seriously, she has never been involved in Scientology:

    These are several posts from ESMB (but not the only ones) where she attests to that.

    In this first one, she praises Marty for not mentioning any information from Tom Cruise’s sessions. And that he isn’t leaking data from the Church.

    She points out that O/W data can be an embarrassment people would prefer to keep to private. And attests she has never been in Scientology:

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    Default Re: Rathbun: Rather than take any iota of responsibility like a man, Tom Cruise went
    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Wenlock View Post
    Well if Marty is not revealing stuff that he learned in confidence from Cruise then more power to him. I would never divulge what i have been told in session by anyone – even in those RPF sec checks that started with “I am not auditing you”.

    That is not because I respect Scientology or Hubbard, it is because I respect myself.

    I am heartened that Marty does not divulge “secrets” that have been learned in session.

    I’ve never been in Scientology so I don’t know how auditing sessions tend to play out but figure the O/W shit alone brings up a lot of embarrassing details that people would rather be totally private.


    She attests here she has never been in Scientology:

    17th December 2015, 11:30 PM
    Thread: The Leftovers
    by BunnySkullReplies
    Re: The Leftovers
    My spouse and I both watched season 1 and 2. We were quite impressed with Season 2. Whereas my spouse was in Cos, I never was, but while I agree the show can be a very sad/difficult show to watch…


    And here:

    27th April 2015, 12:10 PM
    Thread: Question for ex-Scientologists who raised their kids in Scientology
    by BunnySkullReplies
    Re: Question for ex-Scientologists who raised their kids in Scientology
    I’m a never-in but I’ve read plenty of parents on this board who got into big ethics trouble for trying to protect their children from SO recruiters.

    And warns of the ethics trouble for parents posting on ESMB running interference with recruiters.

    And again and again but you get the point.


    In addition to moderating ESMB, she is active in some regard on the EX Sea Org Forum. So, we know she is well trusted:

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    “Mick I’ve always respected and liked you. I think you are one of the best posters here, whip smart and I think your work on the EX-SO msg board is fabulous.”


    If she can’t find something on someone she invents it though. That is kind of cheating but whatever. It is such a minor character flaw. I have never “cast spells” on Emma and there is no evidence on that forum that any such event took place. She also pushes some word buttons that indicate she had been reading my P.C. folders. But I think that is just my being paranoid. I think that was just co incidence:

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    Default Re: The Oracle calls Tony Ortega a liar.

    Also, Terrill fails to mention The Oracle DID post here for a good while. She was totally insane, caused lots of drama via pulling indie feuds into ESMB, and oh yeah cast fucking spells on Emma – dead serious. She was only mocked due to her own terrible behavior and pointless dramawhoring – not her “religious beliefs.” Then she runs off butt hurt to Marty’s Blog and shit talks ESMB as much as possible. Not that anyone cares what that nutter says, we were just glad to be rid of her bullshit and attention-whoring nonsense.


    Just another disclaimer:

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    Thank you TG1. You are correct, I was never involved in Cos.


    She just doesn’t like Indies competing with the Church of Scientology on ESMB:

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    Default Re: It’s time to stop complaining about the cult and get on with your life
    ESMB is terrible for Scientology AND indies trying to drum up business.


    And she tries to keep them of the forum as a courtesy to the rest:

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    Default Re: Maintaining Credibility as Independents
    I wonder about threads like these. Is it simply a form of indie auditor advertising where the post is made to alert any potential lurkers who still believe in the tech who they should contact? Basically post your ad about how concerned you are with maintaining high standards in Scientology and then run and hide when the hard questions are, inevitably, asked?

    Does the OP now abandon/ ignore the thread, but check his PM to see if there are any nibbles from seekers?


    She just feels former Int Execs should not be trusted:

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    Default Re: Are Rathbun, Rinder and all those Ex-Int Base Staff our Friends?
    I think years of Hubbard’s tech and life inside the CoS have left ex-INT base staffers just as confused, if not more so, than you.


    Has an uncanny ability to remember details:

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    Default Re: FULL expose on Scientology Inc – literally blowing the lid off everything

    Odd thing about South Africa, at least this was true up until the last 10 years – any time a South African did the upper bridge levels, the money they paid never went to the AO in Australia. (All South Africans did the upper levels at the Advanced Org in Australia) The money they paid for their upper levels always went to a Swiss bank account in Europe. The flag banking officer at ANZO was always from INT and took care of this. (They made sure the Flag Banking Officer at ANZO was always from INT.)

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    Hiding per LRH is low on the tone scale, below death I believe, hmm?

    He’s just been sliding down the tone scale rapidly.


    Her natural ability to grasp these concepts ranks her as some kind of genus. We had her all wrong.

    She even seems to understand who is fit for the Sea Org:

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    Default Re: Isabella Cruise Abandons Tom and Reconnects with Nicole Kidman — Scientology Cris

    Oh I didn’t mean his leaving was a surprise – no way a chubby, spoiled kid is going to hack it in the SO very long.


    She is somewhat miffed at Debbie Cooks but has an awareness that Debbie has not changed much. Upset about the settlement it seems that Debbie got:

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    Default Re: Debbie Cook is back on the internet.
    Guess CoS hush money settlement checks don’t go as far as they used too…

    Budget travel and child like paintings are ok for awhile, but I guess the old gal missed suckering in dentists and chiropractors for their dough via shady marketing schemes and cookie cutter websites. (These schemes usually use cheap tech labor in India to build websites, which the middle men (like Cook) then promote and sell to their services as “web builders/SEO experts” to the less tech savvy small business owners. She’s basically just continuing the CoS tradition, but I guess now she can just take their money without also trying to recruit them into a cult – so that’s an improvement.

    She just must keep he fingers crossed that these suckers won’t go online and discover they can get the same service without grossly overpaying a fomer SO exec who spent decades sucking every last penny from the captive audience at Flag selling pipe dreams and false hopes.

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    I’d say the main problem is a lot of people hoping the Debbie Cook of today is a different person from the Debbie Cook, SO Flag Captain – and she’s not. The same person who fleeced and manipulated Scientology public and screamed at SO beneath her for 25 years is the same Debbie who fleeced DM and sold her silence to him at the expense of fellow SO members still suffering under his reign.

    Debbie just decided it was better to chose the greatest good for her.


    She really gets “the greatest good” thing too. It is amazing that she knows Debbie has not changed. And she really sees that settlement as fleecing DM. We should try to see her viewpoint.


    She is also very kind to let people know when they have mistaken someone for OSA:

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    Default Re: Please, read and share,but do not reply here

    Wait, why do you think that’s an OSA Op interviewing her? I figured it was a friend or someone she asked to do it. How in the world would Yulia have videos that OSA shot to upload? If Yulia uploaded these videos to her own channel then they are her videos, OSA wouldn’t give her interview they conducted to distribute publicly. In fact I can’t imagine OSA interview would be nearly so calm and friendly, by a long shot. Needs lots more yelling, Tone 40, and THREATS!!!Default


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    Default Re: Scientology Celebrity blog – is this for real?
    I’m not getting the hate, the only “slander”on Tony if you bothered to read the post was the author reporting on a meeting where OSA was trying to dig dirt to get Tony. It read more like a early warning to Tony to watch his back and what the cult is trying to pin on him – but from the sounds of it they are grasping at straws. (Tony is no fool and has been well aware of their BS since his early days reporting on them.) The blog tips it’s hat to Tony saying he’s obviously doing it right if the cult is this afraid of him and disparate to attack him any way possible and spending big bucks to do so.

    Sounds like this guy/gal might be a CC insider, pissed off public with staff contacts or former staff/SO now a public under the radar. Either way they do seem to have some insider knowledge on the LA CC going back quite a ways.

    I don’t get any indie vibe – they diss the indies as another cult and flat out say Scientology is nothing but a con and pyramid scheme. I do not get an OSA vibe from this, OSA sites are sledgehammer subtle and disgustingly rabid with no wit or sign of intelligence – they just mimic trash talk.


    Anyway, I have only read some of her comments going back to May 2013 on ESMB. She really seems on the up and up! Everything seems perfectly normal and in place, it all connects and make sense to me now.

    If I can figure anything else out about her from her own bio and ideas she shares, I will let you know! But for now I think we all have an upright and well meaning friend with no hidden agendas.

  65. Another way of defining insanity is that it’s the end result of a games condition that has become more and more obsessive. The bottom of the one-way descending spiral.

    As long as you’re able to back off from a game and freely decide whether you want to continue it, or do something else, you’ll never be insane.

  66. Do you have an ETA for the whole story emerging? It would give the haters something tasty to chew on.

  67. Hi Marty. You are crazy. And you have quite a few crazy friends. You were crazy to spend many years of your life supporting an activity that you believed would help people and lead to a better world. Most people do not do that. Your still crazy spending years more trying to accomplish the same thing along different lines. When some see you moving up, moving on, wrapped in a tapestry quilt of spiritual teachings, they do not like it. They wish you were damaged goods like themselves. They are stuck. Others need a target, and you will always be a large one. By engaging your legacy or writings, they feel they greatly increase their own importance and opinions. That’s just life. Take it as a compliment. I am glad your able to stay above the noise enough to enjoy your family and other pursuits. I hope others can do the same. We can all take our own versions of crazy and put it to good or better use.

  68. Path of Buddha

    “He smiles not when he sees him, no welcome will he show,
    He will not turn his eyes that way, and answers him with No.

    “These are the marks and tokens by which your foe you see:
    These if a wise man sees and hears he knows his enemy.”

    300 BC Ancient Indian folktale.

  69. Gerhard Waterkamp

    No, Marildi I do not post a lot on Mike Rinders blog. And while Scientology is irrelevant Mike Rinder’s blog is very relevant in helping people who are deceived and delusional to learn the facts and find a way out of Scientology.
    You should try to get out of Scientology as well. It is possible and once you shed your KSW beliefs you will see what a useless and irrelevant subject it really is.

  70. George Layton

    Wasn’t there just recently, on one of these blogs that are exposing the wrongs of scientology, a topic about gossip?

  71. The man who thinks he’s not crazy is truly

  72. Mark C. Rathbun

    You hit the nail on the head and I am quite sure you are unaware of that fact. Obsession about the irrelevant is relevant.

  73. Mark C. Rathbun

    Amazing how the j and ding cultists lose their sense of humor the moment the subject becomes their dear leader.

  74. Gerhard, you may be objecting to the words “a lot,” but I just did a Google site search for your name on Mike’s blog and got 206 results – including comments you posted from 2013 to 2016. To me, that’s a lot of comments for someone who says scientology is “blatantly irrelevant” and that “many are stuck in the fabric of this psychosis and…congregate in ‘anti groups’.” As you must know, Mike’s blog is highly anti to (“irrelevant”) scientology.

  75. George Layton

    I’m perplexed! Is your reply,
    aimed at Her or at Me?
    Humors is just what I,
    intended my post to be.
    Then funny ole life added in,
    just a dash of irony.

  76. Michael Fairman

    What is “crazy”?

  77. George, All I did was share her own posts. Are you talking about the one where she accuses me of bring Indie Feuds onto ESMB? I should not have forwarded that gossip. There was no truth in that either, but I hardly wanted to get nit picky against the back drop of my insanity declare. The gossip seemed so trivial and the injustice, so well deserved.

  78. Or from Gurdjieff.

  79. Hey George, Since you are in good graces with ESMB and Tony’s tribe, I was wondering if you could solve a little mystery for me? It’s a given that I am “totally insane” and “nutters”. So, I am probably just a little paranoid. This is probably nothing and I am sure everyone is above board on ESMB and Tony’s blog. People of reason and integrity. But, this is my mystery. Perhaps your inner Perry Mason can shed some light.

    There was an out spoken critic on ESMB posting as anonmary. She even mentioned having influence on the the U.S. Navy removing something from their web site. She did not care for me and even outed me on ESMB. No problem. This was after she hooked up with Lenny Zinberg (Churchill) and they traveled together to Canada for an event.

    If you read through Lenny’s posts to her on ESMB, he was filled with love, admiration and respect for her. He wooed her like a smitten lover.

    And it was around this time she got bit into trying to set up some fair gaming on me. Have no idea why, I could not recall any dis service I had ever done her. But she felt I deserved it, so, whatever.

    So, after she outed me, I became curious and googled her name. I just wanted to try to figure out why she felt compelled to deliver such a harmful blow to me. And I had challenged her new BFF Lenny (best known as his roles performing for OSA).

    So, I googled her name and I find this web site. It looked like one of the usual OSA web sites. Obviously, the intel gathered and reported had to come from someone they had parked on the streets in several states, even a school. Or, from someone very close to two of the people.

    And, when you first look at the web site, it APPEARS that three women are being shot down:

    But if you look closely, two of the women are being tortured with shame, and one is getting a “cover story”.

    Anne Lowe, a.k.a. ethercat, is the other manager of ESMB. The only thing it has to say about her, is that she managed a web site. Her only involvement in Scientology, is that she used to know someone involved.
    And that is her usual line.

    But, it just seems so strange that someone never involved in Scientology, set up an Ex-INT Base Staff Interrogatory. Gathering intel.

    And it seems, this is how she found out anonymary:

    And why did they include Ann in on this hit list, if Ann was not getting hit?

    I know I am probably paranoid and all of this adds up to everyone else. It just seems unusual that someone never in is doing an Ex-INT Base Staff Interrogatory.

    Well, the thing is, what happened to the two women that were set up for a hit on that web site, that were not Anne?

    Because they were very vocal out spoken critics. And it seems they have been buried somewhere?

  80. Chee, your knowing abilities are marvelous. Even I wouldn’t dream of being able to know what everyone who walked the halls of Scientology was able to learn from that experience.

  81. To each his own and – to quote the blog post title – you may be right. If Ken Wilber of Integral Theory is right, every individual and even whole cultures have to go through each of certain universal stages of development before they can advance to the next.

    “Ken Wilber talks about the complexity of evolution, as there are many stages of human development. These are vital and Ken explains the content of his book on the developmental models of consciousness and talks about the similar stages in all models. These stages are an ingrained part of the human psyche.” Quoted from the blurb under this short video:

  82. What happens when you have been charmed with wrong items, wrong whos, and wrong indications, to the extend you are so confused you begin to turn on yourself, or your own species. Usually for some profit or or benefit, to the person arranging the conflict.

  83. Hark! Did someone light a match in this tunnel? Thank you!

  84. Noticed, and this is me about Marty, his wife and his precious little one.

  85. wow, that is deep

  86. Not that I care to step on Tony’s toes. I know Lenny popped up to help Tony sell his book, and gave him a good scoop. Which propelled Lenny to the top of the Org Board at E.S.M.B.. He has been highly beneficial to Tony.

  87. “He’s crazy” is a thought stopping cliche. And an old one at that.

  88. “He’s broke” is another thought stopping cliche.

  89. “I reject the anti-scientology narrative as being at least as inaccurate, exaggerated, partisan and hysterical as the official scientology narrative.”

    How do you define the anti Scientology narrative. There are many. There are the haters for fun sake narrative. The families who have been torn apart narrative. The harm from living and agreeing to Bolivar narrative.

    There is the Ron was bat shit crazy narrative; Farsec and electrocute myself to rid of BTs narrative.

    There are thousands of narratives. How is it that you have split it into only two?; I love Scientology/I hate Scientology.

    For me, the anti Scientology has to do with human beings internalizing lies from a man who sought to convince us of his unique messiaship and booby trapped other roads to spiritual well being.

    What is your anti Scientology narrative, or how do you define it if you have none?

  90. And this is the judgment, that the light hath come to the world, and men did love the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil.
    John 3:19

    Come to the Light Marty. I’m sure you know who that is.

  91. “He’s rich” is another. There are people that set up “games”, that are actually slaughter houses. You get in there, you start to play, and the truth is, you can never win. Because the purpose is to set you up for a loss.

    And when you have a forum, or blog, who’s sole purpose it is to set someone or others up for a loss, there is going to be roadkill. And if you get behind that purpose, you are not going to come out on top with a win.

    This blog has been wholly devoted to setting people up for wins.

    So when folk wonder over here from other places, and insist or demand to see some road kill, they are simply trying to expand the arena of loss.

    This is not a slaughterhouse. There is not a purpose flowing through this blog for road kill.

    And for those that have been trying to make some road kill on certain individuals, I wish you luck in the hall of mirrors. All that you hoped for, upon your fellow humans, you will inherit for yourself, as you are part of the human equation.

    This isn’t a hidden bunker in a war zone creating casualties. This isn’t an anti anti lynch mob. The title says “Moving On Up a Little Higher”. This isn’t an “Ex” anything meet up. It is a “people now” continuing to rise up. It is a PRO surviving blog.

    And if you come over here and start putting your foot up someone’s ass, you are going to get dragged a bit. But not enough, to contribute to your purposes to become road kill.

  92. You imply he has one.Why must he have one? Why does he have to be anti anything? Maybe that is not what his meaning in this world is about. Is he supposed to create it because you demand it?

  93. Laughter!

  94. You just created a whole autonomous collective, which you now perceive as an enemy, out of a rag-tag cluster of posters and commenters across a whole bunch of websites. That’s crazy.

  95. singanddanceall

    here’s how I define the anti scientology narrative – no clears, no ot’s. Ron left (died) and also said he ain’t coming back, yay!

  96. Path of Buddha

    I like your logic. It really does come down to thousands of narratives. Like everyone experienced something different. Valkov made the same point.
    My Scientology narrative now centers around gratitude. I have been out for over twenty seven years. I am grateful to be alive. I am grateful to have escaped the numerous deaths that I experienced among my friends in Scientology. The first few years out of Scientology were the most difficult. There were many hardships. I am one of the fortunate ones. It would be too painful to recount the narratives of those I knew who perished from Scientology.
    After the first few years out of Scientology (1989-1993), I never even thought about it. It was over. But around 2006 blogs started. I think Marty started like 2006-2008. Then I got a call from Hugh Urban at Ohio State I suddenly had a purpose – get out the story of my experience with Scientology.
    I personally do not care to discuss the subject of my ignorance in getting into Scientology. Hard asses simply do not understand what it takes to get in/out, and the scars that it leaves. Anyone who laughs at Scientology does not fully understand it because Scientology is deadly serious. Those who mock it are not aware of its power. Those who try to bring it down with words, pictures, and media might try kicking an elephant instead.
    With the very limited information about the mind that science has I think it is almost impossible to correctly judge the damage to the mind by Scientology.
    In my narrative, Hubbard is the “Great Deceiver”. He came into my life for a brief time and then vanished. Auditing produced wins based on hope. This is what critics of Scientology do not understand. Hope. Hubbard could have completely satisfied me if he had placed footnotes on his work. Then I could have read his material from the original sources such as Blavatsky, Crowley, Parsons, Percival etc. etc. etc.. In the end, my narrative is mis-directed hope.

  97. Brian: “How do you define the anti Scientology narrative. There are many. There are the haters for fun sake narrative. The families who have been torn apart narrative. The harm from living and agreeing to Bolivar narrative.”

    Those things aren’t the narrative of the anti-scientologists as a group. They are more like individual motivations for creating the narrative, or for being ready to agree with it and become a participant of the “pity party” – which is defined by the Urban Dictionary as follows:

    “A way of experiencing grief, in which you spend your time feeling sorry for yourself and whining endlessly about how crappy your life is. Pity parties can be just for one or for many people, such as maybe your friends and close people…”

    The actual narrative, from my perspective. is basically the belief (yes, it’s a belief system of its own) that scientology never accomplished any good; rather, it was nothing more than an attempt by Hubbard to accumulate money and/or power and “Ron was bat shit crazy” (quoting you).

    The dogma is that Hubbard contributed nothing of any value and only copied from others without ever acknowledging having done so. Even then, any gains achieved were hallucinatory and temporary. People not only didn’t get better but ended up worse and usually needed to spend years handling the damage that was done to them.

    The narrative further claims that the purpose is to inform those who are still in favor of scientology (whether in or out of the CoS), as well as the public in general, of the evils of the cult of “scientology” – and no difference is made, or admitted to, between the organization (and its evolution up to PT) and the basic philosophy and tech.

    Both deliberately and through ignorance, Hubbard’s statements and scientology principles are twisted to come across as bad as possible, often to the point of being completely false, and then spread around by repetition until they become “common knowledge.” Anyone who tries to straighten out a misconception is pounced on hard by the group members.

    It’s all pretty black and white as to how they view “scientology.” That and the “us vs. them” mentality makes their narrative itself cultish. Individuals may differ slightly on this or that, from the agreed-upon group think, but they are generally politically correct – and if not, are shunned. In fact, there aren’t many basic differences between the CoS as a cult and the cult of anti-scientologists.

    Btw, I don’t think it’s uncommon to form and be part of such a group. So I would disagree with the view that the behavior of anti-scientologists is a product of scientology, since it isn’t just former scientologists who form such groups.

  98. Laughter! 2FF!

  99. Hey Guys! Long time no talkie.

    Thanks for your views. I just realized from your responses that the narrative is truly individual in nature. The general narrative is really the sum of its parts.
    It’s all of it for me. And in that regard, our narrative is simply how we deal with information and experiences as individuals.

    Maybe it could be said that how we deal with our Scientology narrative is how we deal with life itself.

    Some will be soured by too many lemons and some will make lemonade.

    I can criticize Ron forever with great ease, ha ha, I don’t have to convince you of that, and can be so so grateful for the experience.

    So Marty, what’s yours?

  100. Yo Oracle, it was a question, not an accusation. :-))

    How are you? I hope all is well.

  101. Mark C. Rathbun

    I think Marildi summed it up better than I could.

  102. Thank you

  103. Path of Buddha

    “Btw, I don’t think it’s uncommon to form and be part of such a group. So I would disagree with the view that the behavior of anti-scientologists is a product of scientology, since it isn’t just former scientologists who form such groups.”

    Very good point, Marildi. Like I was blown away by Ben Carson’s remark about Lucifer. Also, if Carson was an ex-scientologist, the press would have either ignored the comment or twisted it. Of course, Carson speaks from the established Christian doctrine so it is extreme, “might cross the line” and is easily forgotten. Satan comes into the picture in the end and Carson could not say that word but Lucifer is tolerated. So other groups do form opinions.

  104. George Layton

    Sorry, I can’t help you on that. I have never met anyone on any of the four blogs I visit (Here, Mike’s, ESMB, Bunker) and as far as I can tell have never been within 200 miles of anyone posting on those. I read about scientology for breaking news and to puzzle upon the delusional thinking that scientology creates. Some of it so off the wall that I have to just make jokes about it. I’m happy to be looking in from outside where my only involvement with anything that might be created by OSA is reading about it. scientology considers it a high crime to, in any way, criticize scientology and it seems like there is something akin to that here on this blog in believing that anyone that will not believe all of the information shared about the Bunker and ESMB, is blind to their being manipulated by those two. So many people involved and yet all of them categorized the same. Not a unique individual in the bunch, while those here that do have an understanding of the concepts put forth are all, every single one of them, unique, open minded and free of the manipulation of others.

  105. Well said Marildi.

  106. Gerhard Waterkamp

    How about the obsession about the obsession about the irrelevant? (Could not resist).

  107. Gerhard Waterkamp

    Marildi, I am objecting to the psychoses caused by Scientology thinking which you proceeded to give us such a wonderful demonstration. You took offense to my conclusion that Scientology is irrelevant. Instead of discussing it in a straight line you digress to efforts to make the source of that thesis less and there is where all your efforts go without any regards to reason and in absence of any thought completely overlooking that I spoke about a progression. Now I can understand that somebody of your mindset can not differentiate time. And 1998, 2013 or 2016 are all the same, so what happened in 2013 for you actually is happening in 2016.
    If you feel Scientology is relevant make your point that would be a sane reaction.
    “Attack always attack” is part of the psychosis you are caught in.
    You make my point rather convincingly about how necessary it is to completely decontaminate once mind from this destructive subject.

  108. Don’t mean to highjack the thread. Leah was nice enough to open me up on Facebook to post it there on her page, so I am hoping Marty will be generous with me too. Just an open call for helping Tom to care for his little girl. Thanks all.

  109. Awesome summation, marildi! I think you have perceived the essence of the anti-scientology platform. I call it the platform because I find it hard to believe anyone actually believes all that. I see it as sloganeering and propaganda, a bandwagon different people jump on each for his own reasons. If that is “belief”, it is belief bereft of reason and any ability to see what is in front of one’s face. In elementary school, there was a taunt – “Scaredy cat scaredy cat, don’t know what you’re looking at” which seems applicable – in the sense that anti-scientology is 100% driven by emotions that cloud the senses. So many analogies come to mind, I’m sure anyone can think of their own – just go on Facebook in this Election year and look at the political hysteria that’s being posted. Enough said.
    Great summation, marildi. Anti-scientology does sum up to an ethnic cleansing type of agenda, as I see it, not as any kind of effort to whistleblow or reform anyone’s behavior.

  110. I’ve been emboldened.

  111. To be a highjacker.

  112. Of blogs, forums and Facebook pages.

  113. Bunnyskull doesn’t mind to facerip / unmock /enemy declare Karen De either. Must be feeling the altitude. Anyone know what a Indie Op conspiracy is?

    .9th June 2016, 03:37 PM #73
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    Well, “apparently” Karen the flip flop is explainable because you and Marty admitted to running an Indie OP conspiracy on ESMB.

  114. Mark C. Rathbun

    Are you serious? You are suggesting this person ‘decontaminate’ her mind?

  115. She also suggests Marty has an ” Indie OSA posse ” on the same comment:

    “So somehow Alanzo went from thinking Emma and other ESMB’ers were the puppets of evil Marty and his indie OSA .”

    So, Karen, Marty and Indies are identitifed as OSA. Karen Marty Indies = OSA.

  116. Yeah, that’s pretty much the truth. We aren’t parked in a fixed view because of a stated agenda. We view from curiosity. The vision is not clouded by attitude. There is no morning muster for the daily GODS. Gossip Of The Day.

  117. Bunnyskull doesn’t like XSO:

    26th February 2016, 12:32 AM #2
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    “Do you also want former SO members who are flipping burgers now?”

  118. Hey, didn’t that line, “If you leave the Sea Org you will end up flipping burgers” come out of Int?

  119. Never mind. Disclaimer:

    19th November 2012, 03:51 PM #111
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    I’ve never been involved in Scientology, my personal experience is limited to reading online, books and knowing some exes.

  120. Bunnyskull squashes person that comes on ESMB and states they want to write a book about their childhood in Scientology. Seriously, ruthless!

    13th October 2012, 08:05 AM #10
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    “But some heartfelt advice – if you are really serious about trying to write a book about your childhood it would help if you would become an active reader yourself. Spend a few months reading all you can, particularly non-fiction books written in the first person. Many books have been published by people writing about their childhood, there’s even a healthy amount specifically about being raised in a cult.”

    “Publishing houses are buried under manuscripts of people writing about themselves and/or their childhoods …” .

  121. You just did it yourself, George L., in that post. Exactly what you characterize others as doing. I guess that makes you “an anti of one”.

  122. The Lone Ranger

    GMW wrote; ” In the end, my narrative is mis-directed hope.” I see your experience with scientology as fitting that narrative. I share it. But I would suggest your narrative and journey is much much greater and broader and deeper. Thanks for sharing your observations and experiences.

  123. Your “pity party” remarks interested me because of the connection to what has been written about sociopaths and suppressive persons. Bot often use the ploy of being “victims” to elicit pity and sympathy for themselves. Part of their Third Party tactics. I see this kind of manipulation hard at work in this election year.

  124. I don’t know who thought up BunnySkull’s name for herself.

    But it’s perfect.


  125. OMG, Ben Carson’s remark about Hillary is the perfect comparison to how the anti’s characterize Hubbard – even with regard to Lucifer! Here’s part of what a report at had to say about Carson’s remark:

    “…Carson went on to ask the crowd, ‘Are we willing to elect someone as President who has as their role model somebody who acknowledges Lucifer?’

    “As Vox explains, Carson is referring to the widespread, and incorrect, notion that Alinsky dedicated his book Rules for Radicals to ‘Lucifer.’ In fact, Alinsky dedicated the book to his wife, Irene, but acknowledged
    Lucifer as ‘the very first radical,’ in a tongue-in-cheek fashion.”

    That is exactly the type of thing the “anti’s” do with Hubbard’s statements. In fact. his mention of Lucifer in the controversial OT VIII bulletin was not to be taken literally either, IMO, but that would take a nuanced reading of the issue. IMHO

  126. Bunnyskull credits DM with being on policy:

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    Yes, DM learned at the knee of the master on how to treat Scientologists and run an organization. He is on policy and imitating Hubbard.

  127. christianscientology

    Hi George

    Thank you for your post, I found it thought provoking. There are indeed “thousands of narratives” and in fact no two people can possibly have the same story with regards to Scientology.

    I loved every minute of my time in Scientology and look back on my involvement as my completion out of the physical universe. When I was fourteen I became obsessed with finding the answer to “where is the end of space” and it was Scientology where I found the answer.

    I am reminded of the comment some quantum physicist made. “If you think you have understood quantum physics you haven’t, it is much weirder than you can imagine”. The same applies to Scientology.


  128. Valkov: “So many analogies come to mind, I’m sure anyone can think of their own – just go on Facebook in this Election year and look at the political hysteria that’s being posted.”

    Yes, that’s the best analogy. And I cringe just as much!

    “Anti-scientology does sum up to an ethnic cleansing type of agenda, as I see it, not as any kind of effort to whistleblow or reform anyone’s behavior.”

    Agreed. That’s why I used the word “claims” when referring to their purposes.

    I should also have added the word “stated” before “motivations” where I wrote that their individual narratives (so-called) were “more like individual [stated] motivations for creating the narrative, or for being ready to agree with it.” What is stated and what is actual might be very different.

    Good post, Val. And it’s always nice to get a Val validation. 🙂

  129. Thanks, T.O.

  130. .Bunnyskull says Marty has a fan club that can not see or confront the truth and gets five upvotes. Laughter!

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    Default Re: Marty, Final Blackout

    This the reason Marty has his fan club and why it’s so hard to get any of them to see (or confront) the truth.
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  131. In Buddhism it is Mara. It seems the personification of evil is even in stories. Darth Veda, Voldermort etc.

    In religions and stories they are personified. And to others it is simply the dark side of nature: selfishness, greed, murder etc.

    What I find interesting regarding Alinsky and Hubbard; why would the pay pick a symbol of evil as a representation of their views.
    Forget about personalizing it for a moment. Because that is seen as looney from secular societies view.

    I find it a reasonable criticism from Carson. I may not agree with his undestanding and definition of that evil. But that symbol does represent the darker side of human nature.

    I know there is the “lucifer means light” perspective. But a general understanding of that symbol is representative of dark forces.

    In that regard it is my opinion that pointing out someone’s choosing that symbol to represents them is worthy of at least scrutiny.

    You may all disagree. That is fine. But I see it as a valid scrutiny.

    Why choose a symbol of evil to represent you?

    It’s a reasonable inquiry.

  132. Path of Buddha

    Hubbard did in fact say that he developed Scientology in the mythological role of Lucifer. You are correct, Hubbard never said he was Lucifer. In fact, he never said he was the Buddha either. He only implied it. He implied also that he was Buddha’s teacher. Hubbard was very, very careful in his choice of words.
    Those who seriously oppose Scientology always take the final step and make the identification. This is what Ben Carson did and it blew me away.
    Hubbard was talking about Lucifer as the “light bearer”. I traced this back as far as I could. It was very widely held in the first four centuries AD that the morning star was Lucifer. He was bringing light. It had a cosmic significance relative to the stars and planets. Boethius, the Roman philosopher, makes mention of Lucifer in his epic poem “The consolidation of Philosophy. ” He even makes mention of Lucifer as the “evening star”, again bringing light. The order of the cosmos was held together by “the builder of the starry dome.” It could be God or it could be “craving” as Boethius was influenced by ideas which came before Christian consolidation of Europe.
    Carson is so obviously tied up in modern myth when he speaks of Lucifer as the builder of his own kingdom and makes the gross error of identifying Lucifer with Hilary. Carson is limited in his view. He is actually calling Hillary the light bearer. He is actually, in a way, complimenting her.
    The misinterpretation of Lucifer is a common error in the West. In the actual myths that precede the Bible in Buddhist texts, Lucifer is sort of a “go between”. God could never be unjust in the creation so the world is created by demi-gods similar to Lucifer. “Let there be light” is sometimes translated as the creation of the world by Lucifer type beings in ancient texts.
    Ben Carson is obviously a very religious man and he should be given credit for his faith. However, he has made serious errors on the basis of myth. I personally am very greatful he made the statement as it hopefully will disqualify him from a powerful role in government.

  133. Bunnyskull doesn’t like Mike / Marty influence on ESMB:

    2nd August 2012, 05:42 AM #3
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    Default Re: Marty Rathbun: Moving on up a little Higher!
    What’s with these posts rehashing old news on Marty and Mike? I don’t get, there’s nothing in the OP that not only isn’t common knowledge here but each of those episodes had their own threads, sometime multiple threads, discussing it.

    Am I missing something here?

    14th August 2012, 02:50 AM #27
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    Default Re: MartyBlog & Cult Censorship

    Mike would be hilarious if he wasn’t such a self-righteous, annoying douchebag. His fantasy that he is handling ESMB’s “restimulation” is laughable, and kind of sad.

    Really people here are very nice and accepting – and the fact Hobson was tolerated here (& quite a few were very friendly towards him) is irrefutable proof. I promise you not many people, in real life or even online, could tolerate his pompous, insanely insecure ass.

    People who become self-righteous know-it-alls to cover up their deep insecurities are the absolute worst.


    Bunnyskull doesn’t like Sam Domingo influence at ESMB either:

    29th July 2012, 08:51 AM #5
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    Default Re: ‘Scientology want to discredit Katie Holmes’

    But wait, Sam has been out for years? She left the SO long ago and then was a public for years while married to whathisface (grand)son of the famous opera singer.

    How would she know about any “internal” memos on the current situation with Katie?

  134. Gerhard Waterkamp

    Absolutely.- That does not include any estimate or assumption Marildi will do so. I am kind of tired to listen to people explaining how many wins or lessons they have positively learned in their experience with Scientology. Attributing these as a plus point to Scientology and not to their own ability to learn and grow is just as stupid as reading memoirs from Holocaust survivors and taking their experiences and lessons and attribute them as positives to Nazism and Auschwitz style camps.
    I am aware this analogy is somewhat skewed to the seriousness between the two. Nazis were after the life of their victims, CO$ is happy with just their money and their livelihood and children plus they do not hold a gun to your head, at least not literally.
    The only weapon the CO$ has is mind control through Scientology thinking, once that is stripped away the irrelevance of it becomes obvious.
    Before that one is condemned to repeat the patterns over and over as Marildi was so kind to demonstrate.

  135. So, all through out this time period Bunnyskull is fair gaming Mike, Marty, Sam, anyone else that is Karen’s friend, she is propitiating to Karen all over the forum. “Thank you thank you thank you thank you you are so smart you are so wonderful ..” And then, Karen’s son passes away and she drives in a stake:

    14th July 2012, 06:12 AM #15
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    Default Re: Memorial for Alexander Jentzsch..
    I’m kind of surprised Marty Rathbun or even Rinder wasn’t there since I thought they were pretty tight. Some people like Sam traveled far greater distances to be by Karens side today.

    I figured Marty would be posting quite a bit about Alex’s untimely demise and for once I thought this might be the type of situation he could actually be inservice to Karen. Not only did he not post the mass email she sent out but he hasn’t said boo about Alex or Karen since his original post announcing Alex had passed, even though quite a few of his commenters have been repeatedly asking for updates – one going so far as to get mad and ask why he was posting this Cruise celebrity divorce crap when everyone was more concerned about Karen and her wellbeing.

    What gives?

    Now, what would the purpose be behind this? And who or what would have the purpose to split this allegiance? And why is she using this tragedy, to create another loss for Karen?

    If this is not blatant, cunning, deliberate cruelty and manipulative evil, what is?

  136. Gerhard Waterkamp

    Oh boy, so many words and so little meaning.
    Scientology is a composition of existing ideas brewed together and in the sum they have proven toxic. It is not the only one of those brews, not the first one and not the last one and not even the most destructive one. One does not have to be a Scientologist to be judgmental, arrogant, prefer gossip or be delusional or wanna pick a fight. Scientology is just one of those toxic brews and it attracts the flies like any other pile of shit.
    Get rid of if as completely as possible and don’t bother with the flies, they go away once the shit goes away.

  137. She also fair games Sinar around this time, being too insignificant to be a news story.

    What kind of entity, has the product of suppression? That is this person’s product and exchange, suppression. What kind of entity, has this as their product and exchange? Who the fk becomes a professional at suppressing the hell out of other people? How does this even work?

    “What do you do for a living?”

    “Oh, I suppress the life out of people. I’m a snuff queen. I get people to turn on one another, while I degrade, demean and humiliate them. I set them up for losses. It isn’t easy. It is like being a skilled surgeon. And cutting at people, a little each day. Removing their friends, their trust, their hope. Their comm lines and support. I’m like the cancer that eats away at the fabric. Or, maybe sometimes it’s like, um, putting your fingers over someone’s nose, and slowly pressing while cutting off their oxygen.”

    And I’m telling you there is a WHY, that this Grimm Reaper Entity, is sitting in the middle of this theater, and snuffing people out with enthusiasm.

  138. Take a bow for your performance bunnyskull, you deserve a standing ovation at ESMB.. With your 11th century sav·oir faire, pushing demons from your womb.

  139. Gerhard: “You took offense to my conclusion that Scientology is irrelevant.”

    No, I simply noticed the disparity between you saying that “Many are stuck in the fabric of this psychosis and… congregate in ‘anti groups'” and the impression I had that you are one of the people who congregate in the anti-group of Mike Rinder’s blog.

    “Instead of discussing it in a straight line you digress to efforts to make the source of that thesis less and there is where all your efforts go without any regards to reason…”

    Isn’t that what you just did, only more so by adding personal insults? You could have just answered my question and clarified what your participation at Mike’s actually involves.

    Look, if you are not a regular poster over there, commenting about “irrelevant scientology,” then I take it back.

  140. Mark C. Rathbun

    Reminds me of a song, Nuttin Butta

  141. Mark C. Rathbun

    I’m sorry you are so angry.

  142. Path of Buddha

    “I find it a reasonable criticism from Carson.”

    Hi Bryan,
    I cannot agree with that statement. Like I know this is politics but Carson is out of line, IMHO. I remember Alinsky from my college days. This was no big deal in the days of campus rebellion.
    I live in a community of fundamentalists. There has been bigotry created by the fear of hell. I think Carson is in for some rough going because he probably has deeper feeling that he not expressed. Just sayin from my own point of view.
    Much Metta,

  143. singanddanceall

    I don’t quite see that way.

    I was a member for 26 years, quite gung ho about scientology. Read all the books and lectures.

    Amazingly, I’m now quite gung ho about exposing the fraud of clear and OT, that’s the whole purpose of scientology, to produce clears and OT’s.

    Where and who are the 270 clears hubbard supposedly said he cleared in the dianetics book?

    Have you read the book? Do you know the first book has some appendixes that are not in the present time book?

    Those appendixes are written by:

    “The original edition of the book included an introduction by J. A. Winter, M.D., who became the first medical director of the Hubbard Dianetic Research Foundation,[38] an appendix on “The Philosophic Method” by Will Durant (reprinted from The Story of Philosophy, 1926), another on “The Scientific Method” by John W. Campbell and a third appendix by Donald H. Rogers. These contributions are omitted from editions of Dianetics published since about the start of the 1980s.”

    Have you researched this and questioned it?

    I understand the middle path, but it does not apply to the scientology or COS under DM or Hubbard rule, That’s my view.

  144. Gerhard Waterkamp

    You felt compelled to express your perception and assumption that people who occasionally post on Mike Rinder’s blog are part of an “anti group that congregates” on his blog. You are only reacting to your own assumptions and confuse the resulting perception with an observation of reality. (which seem to be black and white)
    I suggest you realize that you don’t know what you don’t know and not fill in your assumptions.
    If a factual description of your actions are taking as a personal insult, I also suggest to change your behavior, apparently you do not like it yourself.
    So why don’t you contribute something on the topic how Scientology is relevant? Maybe we can get into a real discussion on topic or what I substantially said in my post. Maybe your contributions will not look so much like compulsive dead agenting as they appear now.
    So far you come across like a typical person that has Scientology think so deeply ingrained, he or she can not get over it.

  145. Gerhard Waterkamp

    Well Mark, I have seen plenty of Scientology thinking, and yes I am fed up with people doing it. You are not the only that has the right to get grumpy at times. 🙂

  146. Rick Mycroft

    “Davey, who’s still in the navy, and probably will be for life.”

  147. “I see this kind of manipulation hard at work in this election year.”

    I do too.

    As for the “pity party” term, I actually got it from Marty in the blog post. But, like you, I was aware of the phenomenon and had observed it myself – not too hard!

  148. “What I find interesting regarding Alinsky and Hubbard; why would the pay [they?] pick a symbol of evil as a representation of their views.”

    Neither one did, based on the documented data I know of. But don’t let the facts deter you.

    Seriously, Brian, is your data documented or is it blog hearsay?

  149. Path of Buddha: “You are correct, Hubbard never said he was Lucifer. In fact, he never said he was the Buddha either. He only implied it. He implied also that he was Buddha’s teacher. Hubbard was very, very careful in his choice of words.”

    Saying that he “only implied it” and adding that he “was very, very careful in his choice of words” is an even worse commentary about him. You must think he was truly sinister.

    “Ben Carson is obviously a very religious man and he should be given credit for his faith. However, he has made serious errors on the basis of myth.”

    With all due respect, George, I think you missed the point. Carson’s “errors” didn’t have anything to do with the various myths. The remarks he made about Hillary were blatantly false – or were falsified, knowingly.

    Here’s some data from
    So is Alinsky a “role model” [quoting Carson] for Clinton? The most direct connection between Alinsky and Clinton is that she wrote her undergraduate thesis about Alinsky and interviewed him before he died. At the time, Clinton was Hillary Rodham and the student government president at Wellesley College.

    The New York Times reviewed the 92-page thesis and summarized her views this way:

    “Ms. Rodham endorsed Mr. Alinsky’s central critique of government antipoverty programs — that they tended to be too top-down and removed from the wishes of individuals.

    “But the student leader split with Mr. Alinsky over a central point. He vowed to ‘rub raw the sores of discontent’ and compel action through agitation. This, she believed, ran counter to the notion of change within the system.”

    Clinton herself addressed her reactions to Alinsky in her 2003 memoir Living History.

    “Alinsky was a colorful and controversial figure who managed to offend almost everyone during his long career. His prescription for social change required grassroots organizing that taught people to help themselves by confronting government and corporations to obtain the resources and power to improve their lives. I agreed with some of Alinsky’s ideas, particularly the value of empowering people to help themselves. But we had a fundamental disagreement. He believed you could change the system only from the outside. I didn’t. Later, he offered me the chance to work with him when I graduated from college, and he was disappointed that I decided instead to go to law school. Alinsky said I would be wasting my time, but my decision was an expression of my belief that the system could be changed from within.”

    In other words, it wasn’t just understandable “errors” on Carson’s part – he was either ignorant on the subject he was boldly speaking out about, or fabricating something to fit his agenda. Either way, it was pretty contemptible of him. So I wouldn’t excuse him on the basis of his “faith” – which, sorry to say, comes across as condescending, and I don’t think his faith had any direct relation to his remarks. Seems to me he was just being a shady politician. You may disagree.

    As usual, I did appreciate your historical comments.

  150. I guess you encouraged him by apparently chiming in on his sentiments.

  151. Find out who I really am.

    I have read many declares about me over the last 15 years on the Internet. Thank you for those. I heard you.

    The truth is, I am just someone who hoped to contribute to the alleviation of human suffering.

    Some of you, that have dedicated yourselves to setting others up for losses recently, were aboard the Apollo when I got involved in Scientology. And you contributed to my hope. It did probably save my life. Thank you. I was only sixteen.

    When I got deeper into the Sea Organization, which was not deep at all, it became clear to me, that some people were not involved for the purpose of alleviating human suffering. I will leave that at that and not point fingers. But, it was clear the way you were so proud while others were humiliated, scorned and abused, that human suffering was not really an issue for you. Our paths diverged.

    To watch you stand out here so arrogant now, in treason and beating people down, humiliating people, or standing by while your friends are kicked and degraded, saying nothing, doing nothing, I still see the same thing I saw in the Church that propelled me to get the fk out of there. You just dragged this same old shit out here. Crying about abuse and human rights, while treading over dead bodies.

    Give it a rest. I believed in you when I was sixteen. Your actions I can not overlook. If you gave two fks about abuse and human rights and justice, you would not be consistently parked in treason and abuse and inflicting human suffering. And hell bent on setting others up for losses. I do not believe in you anymore. If I do not contribute to your purposes please understand, it is you that caused me to believe, in help to begin with. In trust, mercy and hope. To see you out here on missions to set up others for treason and losses, is YOUR treason. Not mine.

    Marty has had war declared on him for several months now, and bombs dropped on his home. Nobody gave two fucks about Tony Ortega or Ray Jeffries until Marty introduced them to this culture. That some people ran behind his back to form co ops in the cause to set people up for losses, is not on Marty. It is on you, and your basic purposes are seen by me. That you have crossed over and become overt and aggressive in your basic purposes to set others up for losses at any cost with no regard for human suffering, is telling of your intrinsic treason and lack of faith in your ability to actually help your fellow man. Which signals your lack of purpose to help. Or believe in help. You are in the same bag as David Miscavige..

    To sit on ESMB and pretend you care,while culturing foment and torturing people and fair gaming them, bullying people, planning how to set others up for losses, harming attacking and suppressing people, fair gaming, under a banner of the Red Cross is just plain vulgar.

    And below this is the ring around the toilet. The people who pretend to be the last chance Texaco and sell service to the survivors, sponging off the ruins, and set people up for further losses. These are the roaches that feed off the crumbs.

    For the record, there are people that leave the Church every week, and remain true to their purpose in spite of the stage activity. And you do not know who they are or where they are because they are fully aware, they are on a different purpose line and do not belong in the drama of killing off their fellow man, overtly or covertly.

    The only person that has left the Church, and remained true to helping others and setting people up for wins, in this particular arena, has been Marty.

    It does not take Albert Einstein to see that others have devoted themselves entirely, to destroy purposes and setting people up for losses. That is not my burden until you get in my way because I am not on a losing streak. So I do not belong where you are. And either does Marty and his family.

    Park yourselves where you belong. When the person you have to “be” in this arena to be loved and helped, is Tony Ortega and Ray Jeffries, and bunnyskull, and these are your people, and you bitch about Hubbard, or Marty, try not to drag the entire tribe with you. Because that is a long fucking stretch for some people O.K.? Seriously, a long stretch. For some. I did not say most.

    I never ever, ever, got involved in all of this for any reason except to relieve mankind of suffering. I have been asked to make people suffer. In this arena. By people who were here for another purpose. That does not mean I have been wrong, It means the others were basically fkn hypocrites. They actually wanted to contribute to the losses and suffering.

    Do it then. Do it hard. Set people up for losses. Set people up for treason. Set people up for more misery. Shame, ill repute, losses,slander, gaslighting, social abuse, loss of hope, loss of friends. Go for blood. But please do not do it under the banner of a cause called “help”. Not, “justice”. Or beneficial. This is not help. It doesn’t take a. rocket scientist to see it.

    Your fraud, disturbances, treason and hypocrisy, bleed out through all of mankind. You were a human before you were a Scientologist. You will be a human for as long as you are on this Earth. You may only be a “Scientology concerned” for weeks days or months. But your treason to mankind will travel with you through time.

    The ill will towards Marty, the contributing to his losses and his family’s losses. It just makes you a shitty excuse for a human being. Forget what happened before today. You do not even need to own it, I own it. You were not a shitty excuse for a human just before you went there. You have always been. Before during and after Scientology. 1,000 years ago. 10,000 years ago. 50,000 years ago. 50,000 years from tomorrow. If your purpose is to draw blood and fk people up, it will float through time. You will park in many arenas, and always come out the same, and doing the same old sorry dance and routine. Setting people up for losses. You never belonged in a group devoted to helping mankind.

    It is you, that defrauded me, and still defraud your “friends”.

    I have had a lot of offers in the last two weeks, to join an enemy camp. Even offers to obtain pawns, (outing of OSA plants) for legislative information. There is only war and casualties. I declined. I have my own plans for making the world a better place. And so does Marty. It does not include people that are hell bent on setting others up for losses. Your ammunition has been used in this direction. It is gone now. War declared, bombs dropped. Everyone here is still standing. When you are standing on righteous purpose, you can not be harmed.You just look very fkn treasonous on the other end. Not to mention stupid.Your true motives for living laid bare. Marty couldn’t be, Tony Ortega or Ray Jeffries or bunnyskull. The people they need to be, for you to show love, support and devotion. That tells me a penicillin vaccine could not have survived beneath you. And you were never in this game to contribute to a cure.

    Fine. Don’t get indignant and pretend. Own your goals and purposes. Just own it. You are part of the same purpose system as David Miscavige. Do not pretend that you are on some other side, when you are both contributing, to the human suffering. It is a lie that you are in opposition camps. And the dead bodies and sacrifices in your marches are not fair or just.

    For anyone traveling across this path, curious, maybe in doubt. Maybe careful. Maybe needy. Please understand one thing. There are only two kinds of people in this world. It isn’t, Scientologists VS wogs. It isn’t blacks VS whites. It isn’t men VS women. It isn’t New Yorkers VS Texans. It isn’t Arabs VS Jews or Republicans VS Democrats, It isn’t any of that. There are:

    1. People who set you up for a win.

    2. People who set you up for a loss.

    These are the only two groups on this planet. You decide which one you belong to.

  152. Or, people who set others up for wins.

    And people who set up others up for losses.

    And you too, have only two ways to go in social intercourse. You either

    Set people up for losses or

    Set people up for wins.

    These are the only two capabilities you have in this game.

    And these are the only two capabilities others have in this game.

    There really are no neutral players. Know before you.

    Is this person setting you up for a loss?

    Is this person setting you up for a win?

    It is very easy to know if you feel a loss or a win, after crossing someone’s path, and looking at their role.

    Yes, treason can be thick. But what you see is right in front of you, and you can look and know. If you are tricked and deceived, shift position in the game. Move on. Let it go. Run over it. return to sender, block Facebook, whatever. If you are uncertain and take a gamble and end up losing, just own it. You had a 50/50 chance, As much chance to win as lose. Inform others if you were set up for a loss so they are not stumbling into the same trap. Your loss can be beneficial to others. That makes it right then. If you made a 2500.00 investment mistake you can save other thousands by sharing your information. You can even make that experience valuable to others. There are people who, when they can not set you up for a loss directly, can rehab your earlier losses. This is actually another loss. It works in reverse too. They can rehab your wins.

    Own the side you decide camp in and contribute to. That is fairness. Pretense is straight up fraud.

  153. ‘Bunnyskull’ is the name of one of the episodes in the new series of ‘Orange is the New Black’ but I haven’t heard of the monker outside of that. Not surprised that about the names on the attack list. Karen’s other BFF Colleen Rose (AKA Sau Tex) has the same names running through all of her posts too and spent ALL of her spare time (with Atack and Pete’s help) trying to get rid of me and anyone associated with me. I assume Colleen’s sock hasn’t been retired yet? Her facebook page X-Scientology Women is still up but Colleen Rose appears to have vanished up Karen’s bottom along with Bunnyskull.

  154. Singanddanceall and Gerhard,

    At this point in time, I try to avoid discussing scientology with critics (I mean scientology as a subject, not the organization). It just goes round and round and gets nowhere. And contrary to the immediate assumptions of most of them with regard to the fact that I still see many positive things in the subject, I no longer believe Hubbard was right about everything or that the tech has no flaws or shortcomings. But many of them still insist on characterizing me otherwise.

    In any case, I will be away from my computer most of the day today, so I won’t have much time for posting anyway – and I don’t want to spend my time in a grinding debate, regardless.

  155. oracle, do you have a file amassed on everyone? That was scary in its compulsiveness.

  156. Look over the exchange again and try to see what you misduplicated and/or self-righteously assumed.

  157. Hallelujah! My dear friend. We finally disagree! From my studies of Alinskey he was a thug. In his interview, I forgot who, he states that his beginnings in community organizing was stealing and organizing stealing food from restaurants. And he also was tutored by the mafia.

    When I look back on our 60s mindset I have ambivalence. Many good things came in the 60s, yet I have revisited some of the drug ridden and debauchery ridden culture that we were weaned from.

    Words and phrases our generation brought into culture:

    1) ODed (kids dying)
    2) If it feels good do it (the essence of debauchert)
    3) turn on, tune in, drop out (becoming anti social and a societal burden)
    4) don’t trust anyone over thirty (the denial of generational wisdom)

    The history of Alinskey is sordid. I will try to find the interview and post. So I still feel that anyone that uses symbols of evil as a representation of their intention or purpose is up for scrutiny.

    I do not care if they are scientists or fundamentalist mind lock.

    Che Guaverra was also a hero in the counter culture. I have friends who escaped Cuba, their whole family, under gun fire. The stories they tell of Che and Castro makes me really think twice about the information taught in University.

    Alinskey falls in this category iIMO

    Hugs :-))

  158. Gerhard Waterkamp

    Marildi, that is the lamest bow out after somebody has dicked herself into a chain of unsustainable statements and ‘arguments’ I have seen for a long time.
    Maybe one day yo find the courage to post with your full name.

  159. George Layton

    What I’m trying to get across is that everyone is as unique as you are. You don’t stand above others from a knowledgeable position, you stand apart from others from a unique perspective, regardless of where you post or read and what you post and read.

  160. Hi Brian, I’m organizing. Laughter! XXOO Hope you are too.

  161. Your voice sounds so familiar when I am reading your posts, as if I know you. But I am not recognizing the name. But the voice is like a familiar song.

    Reading through a few years of bunnyskulls posts was not the easiest for me. The zero affinity for anyone or anything was a common denominator in all posts. It is an attack voice. Domination. Nullification.

    Karen is generous with her time and interested in people, very open hearted, so it would be easy for someone to position them self in front of her over and over.

    The thing that was very creepy for me reading the posts over a few years was when I realized the people bunnyskull were constantly attacking were not the real target. The target was Karen. Chopping up her comm lines. Then moving in to dominate. This is clearly a lengthy, cunning and methodical program. It is like a snake that wraps and massages it’s victim and then begins to squeeze.

    All of the people it viciously attacked were very, very good friends of Karen’s. People that loved her very well. People with good intentions towards her. Soul mates. And people who meant the best for everyone.

  162. Don’t forget “liberate”, which meant steal, as in “I liberated some hotdogs and buns from the market”.

  163. Except from Rules for Radicals dedication page:

    “………….the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his kingdom– Lucifer.

    And if you read Georges excellent book, you can download it, Lucifer’s Bridge you can find that reference regarding OT8.

    Again, my critique is why use symbols of evil?

    If these terms are neutral then maybe we can have a “Lucifer’s Day Care for Children”


    “Satan’s Marriage Counseling.”


    “Darth Vedar Dentistry. Ha Ha Ha!

    Why use these symbols to represent. In My view it is because these people resonated with them for some reason. And I believe it is reasonable to ask the question.

    I respect you don’t see it that way. Hubbard was big on the power of words. And His son, the much maligned and troubled “Nibs” alluded to Dad’s interest in the dark arts.

    So reason is not unwelcome in this line of questioning. Anything is worthy of being asked questions. I thrive on them. I have found those who demonize those who ask them are usually unwittingly protecting a belief system. So the next step is to malign the character of those who ask them.

    I love that when it happens as I get the opportunity to overcome ego and not take things personally.

    And I consider this topic worthy of scrutiny.

  164. With all due respect, it seems to me you’ve taken several very diverse groups that include former Scientologists, people who have been declared, people whose personal, professional, and financial lives have been destroyed, people who have been disconnected from, people who have been abused or sued or threatened, never-ins who saw friends’ lives destroyed by Scientology, and many, many others, and lumped them under a three-letter acronym which, if you’ll pardon my saying so, is a very Scientology thing to do. I understand that you feel Tony Ortega, who seems to be your main target, damaged you in his coverage of the lawsuit and its aftermath, but in the meantime, since you’ve “declared” him he’s gone on to break or expand some pretty good stories about the madness of Miscavige, material I don’t see anywhere else Not entirely certain what your goal is. I’ve been reading and enjoying your blog for a long time, but now I give it a pass most days, and to tell you the truth, I miss it.

  165. Very edgy song. Laughter!

    I am thinking of this recent time period as a several year world war. The nations that have declared war seem to include every tribe. It began with OSA. The declaration of war. Then finally ESMB folded and became allies with them in purpose. The declaration of war from Ortega, and the months of dropping atomic bombs finally untied all. The collateral damage is heavy, a total re positioning has happened it seems, in a group effort to ensure you are now totally dis armed.

    There is a kind of hush now.

    It seems the ammunition has been used all up.

    And I was standing in that hush. I have shared what I have been able to gather that pertains to the events.

    And I am glad the things I need to address, only include one single person from this arena. There is only one person from this arena I need to address. It isn’t bunnyskull. That was just a snake my car tire slid on, on the road.

    But when that happens it will be outside of this arena, with my own people from other avenues of life. Who have duties to mankind as foremost priorities. And a purpose to alleviate human suffering. Who’s only profit is a better world.

    The deliberate evil to cause suffering in this theater, is anti evolution or revolution.

    But it is good to see you still standing on the middle path. You are still bringing on the hope.

    Much good will come from this too. A better world for the children will come, because of this.

  166. Mark C. Rathbun

    Perhaps, ‘victims of scientology’ is preferable to you? I see you’ve got me victimizing Tony now. Pity party was an understatement.

  167. Mark C. Rathbun

    You are getting very much colder.

  168. George Layton

    Let’s give OSA the day off. The stats they make from our bickering can wait.
    Let’s share random acts of kindness today and forgo all the vengeance and hate.
    Let’s look to the youth in their innocent world and the glee that abounds in their lives.
    Let’s recall better times when our hearts were content to be with Husbands, Sons, Daughters or Wives.
    Let’s forget all we know to be cruel and cold and weighing, just for one day.
    Let’s let all slights pass by, all concerns pass to naught and all torments to fade away.
    Just today, just today, let’s let it all pass with no reply, no feeding the fire.
    Just today, just today, all of us together try that manner to rise up a bit higher.

  169. Today I had the pleasure of having breakfast/coffee with someone who’s become a dear friend.

    Without going into ANY details, s/he no longer reads any of the blogs – something s/he stopped doing about 6 months ago. S/he was never a reader of Ortega’s blog and not fond of the other one …

    BUT I wanted to bring to bring my friend up to speed. S/he’s never posted on Marty’s blog but has watched and admired this blog for years. S/he’s very seriously affected by Scientology.

    BUT, my friends eyes glazed over. S/he JUST couldn’t “get” this OSA (old) and OSA (new) thing.

    And viewing “reality” from the linear perspective we usually do — none of my explanations – demos worked for my friend.

    BUT I trust my friend’s intelligence and deep desire to “get it.”

    So — I persisted. AND during my various attempts to “explain” at least MY understanding of Mark’s post …

    A LIGHTBULB went off. Pieces fell into place and s/he was able to see a way forward in her/his life that embraced understanding and understood that a pity party was an understatement.

    You cannot understand Mark from an established point of view. IMHO

    AND …

    There are no victims here.

    And oh Timothy — 3 letter acronyms is also a very government thing to do. DUH


  170. I don’t think I am the first person who mentioned threads and posts are being ripped off of ESMB. Disappearing. But dang, I just noticed ten pages of Bunnyskull’s posting history has evaporated! Only 67 pages down from almost 80! That was a HUGE memory swipe!


  172. Path of Buddha

    “Hallelujah! My dear friend. We finally disagree!”
    It feeeeeells good!

    Hi Brian,
    I will put my cards out on table. Carson is looking back maybe 40 or more years. No one looks back at Trump that far. I can tell you that for a fact because I had numerous interviews with major media. They would not touch stuff in my personal contact files with Trump. There is lot of dirt 40 or more years back, but no one will touch it. It is not important. It is part of growing up.
    You can say what you want about Hillary, but a comparison to Lucifer is going to an extreme. You should read some of my political science papers from college!

  173. Bunnyskull! Have you been casting spells on Emma? Have you been casting spells on ESMB? Laughter!


  174. Path of Buddha

    “When I look back on our 60s mindset I have ambivalence. Many good things came in the 60s, yet I have revisited some of the drug ridden and debauchery ridden culture that we were weaned from.”

    You are like Moses splitting the Red Sea. This is what happens when you bring up the 60’s and all of the imagery. I am watching the sea waves.
    You knew it, didn’t you?
    August 5th 1968, I am entering the United States Army, training for combat in the field artillery. The images you evoke were in my mind or about to enter it. The newspapers are full of sermons from fundamentalist ministers. Those godless Buddhists in Viet Nam are communist and a threat to Christianity. Behind it all is Lyndon Johnson who says something like “Bring back the skin, boys.” After the war, Scientology enters. What a set-up.
    Is there any wonder at all?
    Btw, thanks very much for the kind words about my book.
    Much Metta,

  175. Ha ha ha! I’m wearing a smile as we speak! It is all grist for the transformational mill! Straight up!

  176. Mark C. Rathbun

    Yeah – Nouveau OSA also put out apb to ignore me. Yet another unoriginal move. C of S tried that too after the ‘crazy’; worked wonders for them. Amazing – it is one for one. Everything these victim forums bitch about incessantly about C of S and OSA – they perform in spades day in and day out.

  177. Path of Buddha

    “You must think he was truly sinister.”
    No, no no. Never thought that.

  178. I can tell you what has happened with regards to ESMB pages and posts “disappearing”. They, the Mods and Admins, have moved many of them to the Member’s Only forum of the Board. Unless you can log-in you cannot find them now. It’s apparent that they’ve moved all threads discussing both Marty and Alanzo to the Member’s Only forum, and so all of Bunny Skull’s posts on those threads can’t be seen by non-members and will be gone from her publicly accessible posts. I say good riddance to her posts anyway. Just a whole lot of nasty tripe by a bitter old ***** who has nothing else better to do. She’s a never-in too. Get a life BS.

  179. Mark C. Rathbun


  180. Yes Val, those damn capitalists have no right to their stuff if I can’t have mine. I will “liberate” you from some of yours.
    My mother got a bag of raisins for Christmas in Manhattan during the depression. Her mother mended torn clothing for neighbors to get pennies.
    Her father, a dreamer, much like me, rolled cigars when he could.

    One day he was walking home from work and a women was crying with her furniture on the lawn and my Grandpa asked,” why are you crying?”. She said,” Because I cannot pay my rent and I am being evicted.” He opened his wallet and gave her is weeks pay for rolling cigars. When he got home there was hell to pay from my Grandma.

    This was my imprint. These were the souls that informed me as a man. And when I look back on the 60s I see great things but I also see bad things.

    They barely survived, and yet my mom told me they never thought of themselves as poor. They were not victims. They were creators. And they passed that value onto me. Their kids went to college. They scrimped and scrimped.

    I detest the Victocracy of our present age. My cross has made me a more powerful person. Each challenge became an arrow in my quiver of wisdom.

    Alinskey fought the man. I fight my own inner demons. No one is to blame for my condition.

    So, Alinskey choose Lucifer as a representative of rebellion against oppression. That is effectively choosing something bad to overcome something bad.

    There are a million and one historical personages to choose as representing the “good fight.”

    I take issue with the quality of symbol that he chose. Carson may be a fundamentalist wacko. I do not know him. But my critique is beyond his politics, beyond his religion, beyond Trump.

    It is simply a critique of two men; Hubbard and Alinskey, who chose a symbol of darkness to represent their rebellion.

    And on inspection of their lives, darkness is not unfamiliar.

  181. My view is not about politics my good friend. Nor is it about Theology. Please read my post to Val.

  182. Path of Buddha

    Bravo, marildi. You are not letting Carson off the hook.
    I still think he is “faith” motivated.

  183. You are back to your mantra, “No Clears – No OTs!” Everyone already knows that. I never expected to have all the super abilities of “Clear” as stated in book one. Maybe my IQ would go up a few points, I would think better and faster, and be more successful in life. Just like any other self improvement practice.

    The magical, mystical abilities for OT were a maybe. There ARE super normal abilities, you know.

    Btw as soon as anyone runs an intensive or two on Dianetics, they will start looking at pictures, memories, imaginings, take your pick, of past lives. Bang! Now you have a religion or at least a mystical trek.

  184. Path of Buddha

    I’ve called Hubbard a lot of names, but sinister never fit.

  185. I had friends coming back from Nam. Blasted on acid, standing in a corner with his mouth open, looking up speechless, eyes wide open remembering hell.

    I saw kids loose there minds sniffing glue. KIds getting shot in the stomach from bad drug deals.
    Friday and Saturday nights were,”where are the chicks and who has the drugs.”

    Girlfriends of my friends getting abortion after abortion after abortion after abortion. And I’m talking about the same girl. And all the while our culture was patting us on the back for being liberated.

    “if it feels good, do it.” That was our cultural religious doctrine. In other words, whatever the senses say to do……do it.

    Many lost their brain capacity. In searching for these lost forgotten childhood names some have become homeless.

    So yes, we needed to get rid of the devil of race bigotry and we started on that road in the 60s. We needed to liberate women from being a man’s possession. We made head roads into that.

    But we fucked the family unit into smithereens. Sex became a fashionable distortion. If a young girl was not getting high and having sex, we branded them as square, not hip, not with it. suppressed by the man, unevolved.

    And this generation is now our leaders. Think about that for a minute.

    So yes, I have issues with people who choose darkness as representative of their purpose and life.

    It’s taken me a lifetime of hard work to undo some of the “liberations” of the 60s.

    And yet my friend George, I am so blessed, so blessed to have learned my lessons. I now know where the light is. And I know where the darkness lies. And I know the virtues and outcomes of both.

    It is for me now, an extremely easy choice.

  186. AA uses the phrases “Get off the pitypot” and “Pity me – Pour me”, in other words, life is so miserable I might as well go out and get drunk – (again) laughter

    PS Miraldi – I did some looking over of Ken Wilber and I’ll get back to you later on a viewpoint or two there. I’m still getting benefits from occasionaly tuning in to Adyashanti.

  187. Yes, very.

  188. Thank you Lone Star.

  189. So interesting, that a “never-in”, has so much charge specifically on the opinion leaders and influential of the Scientology community, don’t you think?

    Former Int Base staff
    Ex Sea Org

    Almost sounds like David Miscavige’s enemy list. Perhaps one of his BT’s escaped the Int Base and took possession of someone crossing the street in New York?

  190. I already have a pretty good idea of what it would be like to have an exchange with you, just from how you have responded so far. You really should try to keep your TRs in and not get your knickers in such a knot. You might see more clearly.

    Back a couple comments ago, I even gave you a chance to get off the hook graciously, when I said that if you weren’t a regular poster on Mike’s, then I take back what I said about it looking like you were. But that didn’t satisfy you.

    I wasn’t going to say anything about an exchange of yours I saw after I did the Google search, but maybe it get you to see things in a different light. The exchange was on MIke’s blog just last month – and it was all about “irrelevant” scientology. Not only that, but it shows how well you fit into the anti-scientology narrative that I have observed and described in another comment. Here is part of that exchange:
    Joe Pendleton says
    June 7, 2016 at 8:16 am
    Gerhard, I had a much different experience through most of my 35 years active and working in Scientology. I certainly do not feel I had become at any time “utterly delusional.” As a matter of fact, I DID have life changing wins that I still apply in my life to this day to make it better and more enjoyable. Yes, some of my realizations were absolutely tremendous, from MY point of view. I even still apply some of the admin stuff, did Non Existence with someone just yesterday on needs and wants. Have applied Affluence to my finances very successfully many times. Even parts of the first dynamic danger formula and yes, even some wins from applying the enemy formula. I notice drops in tone level almost immediately when I am with someone (as well as a raise in tone) I take what works for me and discard what doesn’t. Why should I invalidate anything that is true for me or that works for me?

    Gerhard Waterkamp says
    June 7, 2016 at 6:16 pm
    Joe, what works for you works for you because you make it work. Yet Scientology is a way of thinking that occludes reality. There are no ‘conditions’ this is just a construct LRH thought up to structure our thinking in a certain way. As long as one is stuck in the faulty answers that LRH gave one is not looking for better ways.
    And in almost every aspect I found there are better ways to deal with life than Scientology “tech” offered.
    For that one has to look beyond Scientology think and as one does one will realize every day how one was duped and blinded and find new doors opening. “Why should I invalidate anything that is true for me or that works for me?”
    Maybe Václav Havel has the answer for it when he said:
    “Keep the company of those who seek the truth- run from those who have found it”

  191. This could also explain the “never-in” Ethercat that set up the Ex Int Base Staff Interrogatory That BT could have come from Jenny Linson. Traveled by someone ethercat knew.

    Anyway, none of business really. They came, they hated, they bullied, dominated and nullified and fit right in. I’m the one they had to ban.

    I would not have noticed at all, if not for the declaration of war upon me “who casts spells”.

    I just got hung up curiosity wise, because everyone that lights a match and throws it at Marty, seems to go up in flames them self. It is just the strangest thing.

  192. For more on “pity parties”, Google Drama Triangle. The 3 positions were originally titles Victim, Persecutor, Rescuer. These are called by some as Hero, Villian, VIctim. This is used in Transactional Analysis as well as other disciplines:

  193. Gotcha, Brian. A “victim” is someone who is at effect. That’s how it is defined in TA and other groups.
    I do disagree with you about the connotation you use for Lucifer. I think that is your cultural background speaking. To me, Lucifer = Prometheus of the ancient Greeks
    He was the Titan who ctreated mankind and brought them Light(Knowledge), which made some of the Gods jealous so they seriously targeted him for it. Nothing evil about him. But I am not of the Western cultural tradition.

  194. Brian, it does seem that beauty – or “the devil” – is in the eye of the beholder.

    I already posted a passage from an article where the writer sees Alinsky’s quote about Lucifer as figurative. Please see:

    Similarly, here’s a quote from a different article, in which the writer points out that Alinsky’s remark was a one-off (one-off: something done, made, or happening only once) and that in the rest of the book, there is nothing at all said about Lucifer as an example for other radicals – which wouldn’t make sense if Lucifer was his hero.

    “Alinsky was a self-described radical, and this is indeed a provocative statement. It also appears to be something of a one-off ; while Alinsky’s book is all about ‘Rules for Radicals,’ he does not go on to further discuss this particular radical — Lucifer — and the example he might provide for other radicals.

  195. Yeah Marty. Timothy is right. Any big game requires sacrifice. Tony’s group is all and you, the individual, is nothing. Think of the greater good. Why, just today Tony noted some attitudes about a letter in legal packet. “Cindy Plahuta’s letter in fraud lawsuit struck.”

    Why should the sabotage of your legal cycle be an issue? Besides, Tony is the Scientology expert. And, he is BBF’s with the stars.

    The only reason he can not, “divulge any information” about Leah Remini’s project, is out of loyalty. He knows everything, believe me.

    The only reason he sends “best wishes” regards to Lisa Marie Presley, is because he wants to downplay the fact that he is her confidante . And pretend that the spread on her, about the media with Ron Miscavige Sr., was not a close conspiracy with her blessings.

    So you should shut up and lay low Marty. It is all for the greater good and your personal life and family, and you, should not be an issue.

  196. Okay, thanks for that. Don’t laugh but I’m about to quote for you and Brian a Buddha anecdote that comes to mind. 🙂

    This is from the Wikipedia article on the novel *Siddhartha*:

    “…Toward the end of his life, Govinda hears about an enlightened ferryman and travels to Siddhartha, not initially recognizing him as his old childhood friend. Govinda asks the now-elderly Siddhartha to relate his wisdom and Siddhartha replies that for every true statement there is an opposite one that is also true; that language and the confines of time lead people to adhere to one fixed belief that does not account for the fullness of the truth. Because nature works in a self-sustaining cycle, every entity carries in it the potential for its opposite and so the world must always be considered complete. Siddhartha simply urges people to identify and love the world in its completeness.”

  197. Okay, maybe you’re right that he is “faith motivated.” But that doesn’t give him an excuse for being thickheaded. Like I said, I think doing so is patronizing. We wouldn’t let some atheist, for example, get by with irresponsible and stupid remarks, would we?

  198. You know what’s funny, Richard? Having a passing knowledge of Wilber’s integral theory, I can actually have some empathy for Trump and his followers (not enough to be one of them, mind you). 🙂 In integral theory, everybody’s right – since they really are in given circumstances and situations.

    Ditto for me on what you said about Adyashanti.

  199. Speaking of which, I am challenging Tony Ortega right here on an open forum, to post his own bank statements, as evidence that he is not in the employ of the Church of Scientology. His W2’s too. I would do it on his forum, but I was expelled. He spent several months dedicated to this message and accusation against Marty. Not only for last year, but this year ending. If he is clean, this should not be an issue for him. He is an open book with his followers right?

  200. We all know he is duty motivated to help his tribe. They give him everything, and he gives back the same way. I am sure it will be no hardship, for him to share his income records.

  201. Because he is here on the same terms as all of us.

  202. I am very anxious to hear of his response and forthcoming honesty. His willingness to open up to his “tipsters” they way they have opened up to him. His willingness to lay open, as we do. His commitment to our cause. The same way we are. I have every reason to believe , he will be forthcoming to illustrate his interests, are in our behalf.

  203. Information is power. I understand it is his duty to empower people through informing them without reservation.

  204. CrashingUpwards

    +1. But I am still learning my lessons and still fighting demons.

  205. As the world appears under siege … and the “media” continues to fan the fear with more and more graphic videos and sound tracks … I am reminded again and again how this microcosm of scientology as well as watching AND reporting mirrors the larger whole.

    One would “think” that millions read and hang on every word of the various blogs. Hardly. Count the regular posters and multiply even by a factor of 100 — that’s how many REALLY care and follow.

    (I made up these stats of multiplier so don’t go after my “facts” — they aren’t facts just feelings)

    BUT again and again I have implored those on another site to stop just calling names. Like school yard kids. Taunting. Not even bullying.

    I finally gave up even posting. Why bother. No one there “really” wants to change. Nope. It’s victim city.

    The bullying is done on the OTHER site. And that is harsh and cruel and way way over the top. Shocking in it’s duplicity, I might add.

    Months ago I asked my brother — did you see “Going Clear?” — his answer was short and to the point. Why would I, I lived it?

    You see — I virtually disappeared from the lives of my family first into the SO and then continuing as a public person for 12 years – and another almost 20 to fully de-compress.

    But during ALL this time I held a key purpose … to know myself every nook and cranny and to stop habitual patterns that were harmful to myself and others …

    Mark has been instrumental in this growth. NOT the other blogs full of re-hashing gossip AND utter arrogance at times and cruelty.

    Mark, through skillful means. has pointed towards a view that some find IMPOSSIBLE to understand because it IS NOT obvious. It’s rather invisible.

    “It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye.” The Little Prince by Saint Exupery

    It takes opening ones heart to get an inkling of truth. And going forward from there. Many here have done that.


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  208. Sure, philosophically I agree. But definitionally there is a broader view. It’s the stuff stories are made of.

  209. Ain’t we all Crashing Upwards………..ain’t we all. To a large degree, daily meditation has withdrawn my projection of the external demon. The blaming of a person, external circumstance for my experience.

    Without the habit of withdrawing into the projection booth (meditation), to become familiar with the operator of the camera (the I), who operates the projected light (thought energy), upon which neutral circumstances (the projectors light beam) makes images on the blank screen (our material environment)………… We will blame some external curcumstamce or person for our experience.

    This in essence is the road to total cause (the recognition of our ability to project and perceive).

    We are the ones doing all of this. This is the Prime Cause.

  210. I think a cultural view is a narrower view. Culture creates definitions. Promethius evolved into Lucifer in some cultures. That would be good evolving into evil. Paradoxical, yes? Or is that not what you mean?

  211. CrashingUpwards

    Brian said; “Ain’t we all Crashing Upwards………..ain’t we all. To a large degree, daily meditation has withdrawn my projection of the external demon”. Just yesterday It downed on my that I needed to get to meditation again. Solutions can be simple. Control your thoughts, control your destiny. Brian, your wise beyond your tender years.

  212. Windhorse – A very nice post. “Mark has been instrumental in this growth.” For me, too. By running this blog and posting his thoughts, along with the intelligent conversation which follows, I have learned many things. I really don’t care if Mark now worships The Red Queen or his pet rock – laughter. Peoples beliefs and opinions can and do change, although I see his viewpoints as being consistent starting with the Deconstructing Scientology posts in mid 2014 where I started reading last September.

    I think that everything pro and con scn, subject of, and LRH pro and con has already been said and anyone wishing to do so can reach his or her own conclusions. How fixed and rigid am I in my own conclusions is what I think is now under consideration. As you suggest above, and I see Mark as presenting it this way, Scn is just a backdrop for the overall subject of cult mind and groupthink in society.

  213. Hey Miraldi! – Marty posted a new topic today, so I’ll say something off topic about Ken Wilber.

    Just from memory you posted a 20 minute video by him a while back. At the very end he says “Won’t you join us?” This IMMEDIATELY set off my spider sense – laughter. Anyhow, he states that there were four seperate overall human cultural evolutions or whatever, and later ones replaced the earlier ones. Now, supposedly, humans are entering a fifth state where the earlier concepts won’t be replaced, but rather integrated and accepted as all being valid.

    OK – so far so good. (time to get a bit facetious here) I look at another video and followers go off into the jungle and chug down some psychedelic jungle juice under the guidance of a guru! Later videos show starry eyed acolytes attesting to how they “got it”, a cosmic understanding of universal love or some such cosmic consciousness they experienced!

    Hey – I thought we already went through all that in Haight Ashbury in the 1960’s! laughter!

    Later about a win with Adyashanti

  214. Mark C. Rathbun

    Since the guy was so prolific and went from conscientious researcher of guruing to guru I suggest his most concise, least sales-pitchy, and best work in my opinion. It is the short book titled “No Boundary.”

  215. Thank you Crashing, but these tender years you are referring to are in reality the perfect illustration of the Buddhist quip: “life is a pleasure cruise destine to sink.”

    There are some leaks in this ship. Not bad ones, but ones commensurate with a body of 63.

    Re meditation. In the beginning the mind is hard to settle down. The most important virtues to instill:

    1) Study of the subject. Study from those who have attained liberation. Read sundry authors.
    2) daily practice, morning and evening
    3) Sincere enthusiasm, a passion for the subject. This keeps the energy going in the focused direction. When the work is fun, the path is the right one.

    There are many books, many teachers of varying degrees of accomplishment.

    For inspired reading:

    1) Autobiography of a Yogi by ParamahansaYogananda
    2) How to Know God, The Yoga Aphorisms of Patanjali. Translation and commentary by Swami Prabhavananda and Christopher Isherwood
    3) The Crest-Jewel of Discrimination written by Shankara in the 700s. Translation by Swami Prabhavavanda and Isherwood.

    These are two lineages that teach their own forms of meditation. They all criss cross at some point.

    My lineage is with Yogagnanda. Both of these lineages are quite ancient. Going back very far.

    I find it quite interesting that in this 21st century, the philosophy and practices discovered thousands of years ago the the mountain caves of the Himalayan Mountain regions, by the Rishis (wise sages), is ever relevant today and whose interest is on an extrapolated upward trend.

    It speaks to the timelessness of their discoveries regarding human self perception and the source and resolution of human suffering, leading to the coveted brass ring of joy and wellbeing.

    Good luck on your journey Crashing Upwards. May it be fruitful!

  216. Thanks for the reply Marildi. I see your point. And I have run the course of my opinion. I believe we have stated our positions well. Muchas Gracias.

  217. Gerhard Waterkamp

    Marildi, more of the same, still no courage to stand up with your real name and no word to the subject of the post, just futile and childish efforts to reduce another person. It is pretty redundant.
    Grow up.

  218. My thoughts are; yes, I can see your view from a philosophical perspective that evil, bad, Maya, delusion has a positive purpose to evolve into the good…………. Luke, I am you father!……lol

    And in the observation of mind, consciousness and life itself, the good and bad are in constant flux morphing into each other.

    Like the gang member who was a devil in the community, then got clean, sober and bright. He then vowed to help kids. And because of his familiarity with darkness, crime and violence, he is able to get through to kids in a way that no other “do gooder” can.

    In that regard Lucifer could be a representation of that.

    But then there is the part were the evil is being evil. That gang member before he was transformed. Able to harm, and torture innocence to appease the lower nature.

    Jewish families being torn apart in the train yards, stripped naked with kids screaming mommy mommy. That is evil. That is a snap shot of a state of consciousness that causes harm in the now.

    There are symbols that stand for transformation from darkness to light; the Pheonix, the Chrysalis and many others.

    The word Lucifer on the otherhand, definitionally stands for, in the common vernacular for an evil that causes suffering for its own sake.

    And because these men, Alinsky and Hubbard were writing books for the general public, not to esoteric philosophers (Ron was no fan of esotericism), I question their choice of this term.

    Again……. Why choose a term that generally stands for a rebellion against the good.

    If I surveyed a thousand people and asked the question,”which word comes to mind when I say the name Lucifer, good or evil, I think the answer would be easy to predict.

    So that is what I mean by definitionally. By definition the name Lucifer conjures up the bad. Maybe not for esoteric philosophers, but for the common man.

    So why? Why, when there are thousands of more benevolent metaphors to use.

    Ok, I think I hurt my brain! Ha ha ha. I’ve spent my mental fuel on this topic.

    Be well Val, have a great weekend!

  219. Good exchange, Brian. Short but sweet. 🙂

  220. Hey, Richard!

    “At the very end he says ‘Won’t you join us?’ This IMMEDIATELY set off my spider sense – laughter.”

    Yeah, I ridged a bit on that too. But I do think he’s sincere in his desire to make a change for the better on this planet. What happened to Ken is probably the same as what happened to Ron, in that both of them succumbed to the ego, to one degree or another. Power and fame can easily do that, they say.

    Looking forward to hearing your Adyashanti win.

  221. This is a Red Herring, Gerhard – yet another logical fallacy from you – along with the Strawman fallacy and others in your previous replies. I’ll let them all speak for themselves.

  222. Not in my vernacular, Brian, not in my vernacular. It may be that if you asked 1,000 Americans, you would get that result. But there are many people even in America who are a little familiar with Greek mythology, who would see it my way I believe. They don’t have to be “philosophers”. It’s all in the Western Christian tyradition of the story of the Serpent, too. Anyone who tries to bring enlightenment or knowledge to Mankind is judged to be “of the Devil”. I’d bet there are plenty of people in the Bible Belt who would consider you to be of the Devil for promoting Eastern traditions and meditation. They are not few, either.

  223. Actually no Val, if you look into any religious or spiritual tradition this view is there.

    In the universe, there is good and evil. It is not merely a relativism of opinion. That is Hubbard’s and Crowley’s view.

    Is there a transcended state beyond these pairs of opposites; absolutely. But to deny good and evil when that state of spiritual blessedness is not known is a danger to society.

    I am sorry to say that your view is limited and maybe even a bit bigoted towards Christians. It is a generality towards Christians that is not true.

    The concept of personal and impersonal evil is woven into the tapestry of all traditions.

    Except those who feel the individual ego is god. And that truth is not universally rooted, but rooted in individual opinion; Like Hubbard and Crowley.

    The truly Great Ones are not so small minded in their experience of truth.

    Truth is not an individual opinion. That is the doctrine of ego is king.

  224. Actually yes, Brian. How in the world did we go from talking about Lucifer specifically to a general dissertation on good vs. evil across the world’s religious traditions. Talk about changing the subject! And it certainly didn’t speak to my point about Bible Belters considering Eastern practices as being “of the Devil” ? But, since I like you and you seem well-intentioned, I will drop the subject.

  225. For anyone unfamiliar with him, Adyashanti, Adya for short, is a nondualism teacher.

    Adya asks a questioner (if that’s the correct terminology?) what is something she really, really wants. She responds about a fellow. Adya says “Oh yes! – That’s a good one.” and the audience laughs.

    They go over the wonderful things that could happen if she has this fellow. But then the flip side is the disappointment and even suffering that the wanting could produce. They continue and she leaves with a more detached view to her want.

    I took a look at that and realized my “wanting” to be recognized as contributing a valuable post once in a while (big ego, self importance? laughter) Of course the flip side to that is being considered or told that I’m an ignoramous!

    The subject lightened up for me and I’ll continue to work on my self importance. Also, if our host can tolerate being called crazy, then I can certainly live with being called an ignoramous, although that hasn’t happened (yet). 🙂

    I find there is a harmonic to “Awakening” as nondualists call it, and that is lethargy, which is why I only pursue it to a certain extent. That’s another discussion.

  226. Incidentally – Yesterday I clicked on Ken Wilber in Categories above. That post “The Bridge Beyond the Bridge” was posted on October 24, 2013. It contains several acknowledgements to people other than LRH who developed “the tech”. For example, Ava and Charles Berner developed the study tech. David Mayo wrote the NOTs material. etc. etc.

    Much of the conversation going on back then is very similar to what is being discussed currently.

  227. marildi, it was kind of you to not include “ad hom” in the list of fallacies he throws out.

  228. Good comment, Richard.

    Regarding the last paragraph:

    “I find there is a harmonic to ‘Awakening’ as nondualists call it, and that is lethargy, which is why I only pursue it to a certain extent.”

    I think that’s what Adya is talking about in his book *The End of Your World*. He basically says that with awakening, all of one’s conditioned purposes and interests are no longer part of the structure of the mind – and that the mind is what one needs to be free of to achieve the joy of awakening. A chapter in that book called “The Story of the Wedding” was taken from this 5-minute part of a recorded interview, in case you never watched it:

  229. Do you still believe in Xenu? Do you believe Body Thetans are real? Because that could provide some insight…

  230. You posted that clip back on the “Culture of Complaint” topic where you brought up nondualism and got me interested by posting a Mooji video. I enjoyed listening to the Adya clip again. I see this could be a two hour written discussion, so I’ll just stick to lethargy for now – smile

    On a Mooji video a woman writes to Mooji complaining that since engaging in nondualism her son has been sitting around and not contributing to the household. Interestingly, Mooji concludes that since the woman does not say that the son is damaging the household, then it is actually the woman herself who is being selfish for resenting her son following his path. I guess Mooji didn’t make friends with parents supporting dead beat kids with that conclusion – laughter

    To a greater extreme, on another Mooji video, a man says he folded up his business four years previous, and apparantly had been sitting around contemplating shit for all that time waiting for something big to happen (my take on it). The standard response from teachers from what I’ve studied so far, is that one must let go totally, absolutely, completely etc. etc.

    Personally, while getting into that mindset two months ago, I found myself sitting on the back porch contemplating. The lawn needs mowing – nah, do it later. There are some back issues of magazines I should look at – nah – etc. etc. I was experiencing a lack of interest and even disdain for doing mundane things, so I pulled back.

    Like I said, I still take an interest in Adya and gain benefits, but I’m not pushing it. I have other interests and like yourself I continue to participate on Marty’s blog which provides food for thought. 🙂

  231. Actually, the ad hom was so blatant that I put it aside and then forgot to list it!

    Overall, I got that the guy was trying to intimidate me into it having a discussion with him – and that his basic intention is to help people he is convinced are badly misguided (or has become convinced by the rhetoric). I’ll give him that much – and I wouldn’t say it about all the “anti’s.”

  232. Mark C. Rathbun

    I do not believe in anything. However, the NOTS series describes the behavior and mental processes of ASC royalty and OSA Nouveau to a tee.

  233. Abraham Maslow, who died in 1970, was a humanistic psychologist who wrote a book titled “Toward a Psychology of Being”, spoke of people who who had experienced what he called “cognitions of Being” or “peak experiences” as becoming quite a bit less driven and more contemplative.

  234. Richard: “Like I said, I still take an interest in Adya and gain benefits, but I’m not pushing it. I have other interests and like yourself I continue to participate on Marty’s blog which provides food for thought. 🙂 ”

    I pretty much feel the same as you. Not too many people are ready for the extremes of some teachings – just like not too many would become a monk.

    That is the difference between those teachings and Hubbard’s philosophy, for example: The goal of scientology was simply to play a better game. This was where Hubbard was at, and it’s right for many people.

  235. Hi iamvalkov – I looked at Maslow in wiki. Wiki didn’t mention cognitions of being, just peak experiences which is more general. Cognitions of being is more descriptive and specific which I like. The Ken Wilbur followers, to their credit, weren’t a gang of hippies off to get stoned. (I used to be one of those – laughter) They had a purpose. It remains to be seen if chemically induced cognitions of being stick with them as a lasting reality shift.

    After blowing scn in 1983, I never studied another practice or philosophy other than AA for two years. There are a lot of new ideas presented here by yourself and the other Big Brains. (lol) I take it slow to avoid data overload, and I figure why rush from one win to get to the next. You and the others keep me thinking. 🙂

  236. The problem in present time is where would one go to follow the scn path? Sifting through or reading and listening to Hubbard’s millions of written and spoken words would be a daunting task. Peter Torres who blogs as ThetaClear spent 30 years doing that, and finally gave up trying to make scn into a workable applied philosophy. He announced his position on Mike Rinder’s “To Be or Not to Be” post on June 5, 2016.

    I’m certainly not going to throw out the many valuable things I learned WHEN IN scn, but I have no interest in going back to it for anything else. Peter lists some alternative studies and techniques which he feels give better, faster and scientifically verifiable results.

  237. Richard: “Sifting through or reading and listening to Hubbard’s millions of written and spoken words would be a daunting task. Peter Torres who blogs as ThetaClear spent 30 years doing that, and finally gave up trying to make scn into a workable applied philosophy. He announced his position on Mike Rinder’s ‘To Be or Not to Be’ post on June 5, 2016.

    I saw that post of Peter’s and the word “specious” came to mind (as it often has with his posts). For example, to support his claim that the tone scale was just something Hubbard took from others before him, he posted a link to an article that talked about nothing more than an alphabetical list of emotions – not a scale, by any means. Hubbard derived not only the sequence of emotions on a scale but their relative vibrational frequencies. As far as I know, other references to emotions even having frequencies came out many years after the tone scale – i.e. DMSMH 1950 and SOS 1951, or even before in EOS.

    Also, Peter claims to have read everything in Scientology and listened to all the tapes, but his only training is in Book One. Based on his posts, I’d say he isn’t the expert he thinks he is.

    In any case, I’m not trying to change your mind about not going back to Scientology. I myself might get more auditing at some point, as I think it is incomparable in speed and preciseness in raising awareness, but I no longer believe it is the only road to truth.

  238. Nathalie Stacy

    Amen, amen!

  239. Nathalie Stacy

    @ Grace: “If you really want wisdom and understanding, the source is not “light” as in enlightenment (or insight). It is not found in the light, but in darkness; not only darkness but darkness within darkness. ”
    Virgil wrote in the Aeneid, when telling of the voyage of Aeneas and his men that “darkness was our guide and our leader was Despair.” (Dryden. Trans. of Vergil’s Æneid. Bk. II. 487.)
    What do you think? Are us existentialists seriously morbid, or is there some wisdom to be found from this first chapter of the Tao Te Ching?
    — Mark Yang

  240. Hi Marty, I still support the tech and many of the Scientology tenets and that makes me happy. In the past I have first admired you, then disagreed with you when I got the impression you were taking a negative stand about the tech. However now I agree with your position. Esmb is the exact copy of the worst of scientology, cognitive dissonance galore.

    With that in mind I still remember with a smile a great thanksgiving in 2009. 🙂 My best wishes for everything

  241. Mark C. Rathbun

    P – Thanksgiving 2009, one of the very best 🙂

  242. What a group of people think together is more right that what a single person thinks. You can find that sort of thinking in fanatic religions, politics, but in so many other places, as well.

    From that point on, shocking words like ‘crazy’, ‘sinner’, ‘sp’ etc don’t permit examination and understanding of the labeled person or persons, but are meant to create impression instead, or in other words to implant, brainwash and cause distrust, separation and hostility. That protects the group from the threat of disagreements spreading within it (or does it protect all the rest from the group?).

    Considering the archetypes of what is ‘normal’, I am crazy. I know it, I’m glad about it. At least I don’t engage in ‘normal’ fair game against the whole world, for reflecting and seeing my evil self upon it, making ‘normal’ claims like ‘everybody’s out for themselves’, ‘all men are bad’, ‘all women are bad’ and thus justify my own attitude against all.

    Regardless, it would be ‘weird’ for a Scientologist to label another ‘crazy’, for such thing is considered suppressive psychiatry etc. That should indicate that statement was either too hypocritical, or being a Scientologist was.

  243. The unknowing is the hardest, once you learn all of the lingo, it’s hard to forget, true?

  244. Hi, in my opinion, it can be hard, but it doesn’t have to. But I think it definitely takes strenuous ‘training’ to get ‘accustomed’ to it.

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