Was it a book or was it a gun in the hand of Keith L. Scott in Charlotte North Carolina the other day when he was gunned down by police?
How does that question relate to topics covered here since 31 August?
Was it a book or was it a gun in the hand of Keith L. Scott in Charlotte North Carolina the other day when he was gunned down by police?
How does that question relate to topics covered here since 31 August?
NY TImes – …..“some type of object” in his left hand.
Several layers here. The main two, off the top of my head are: One – the problem with having the Fifth Estate as our interpreter – what is or isn’t being reported properly. Two – the distinct parallel to villifying and shooting/destroying people because of what *might* be there. That’s the worst one – and something I, for one, will be examining further.
I lived in Charlotte for 20 years. I was also involved in the school system. This anger has been simmering for a long time. There is a huge divide in Charlotte, worse than what I saw in NYC. My hope is now that attention has been drawn there, some work will be done. And that will take some time.
However, your “man on the street” there knows almost nothing about the whole Scientology vs anti-Scientology matter. I bet you couldn’t find a soul there who has heard the name Miscavage. He is a non-entity there.
Perhaps it was projection.
This is a trick question. Well, the cop jumped the gun by shooting the NC dude. The cop ‘assumed’ he had a gun. Just like the ASC jumps to conclusions and assumes things without knowing the facts first. The ASC shoots a lot of people with bullets made of ignorance. The NC situation & what you’ve been discussing since Aug 31 have similar fundamentals.
Also, I feel there’s 2 factions. The ASC which totally sucks and includes all of the morons you write about. Then there’s the ASM (Anti-Scio Movement). The Anti Scio movement generally includes intelligent awesome people like myself. We don’t shoot blanks. And we don’t shoot bullets of ignorance.
I fell like this is a classroom question. Did I pass? Or get at least a C+?
Oh and sorry for my ‘fell’ typo. I meant to spell ‘feel’ I hate how this doesn’t let us edit comments to correct typos.
It isn’t like that. I was curious to hear some views. And as usual yours was worth taking the time to read.
Darnit! I have not idea then. Maybe the ASC needs to start holding more books & reading them. Instead of holding guns? I’ve had a long day and my brain is dead right now. Thank you for replying back though. I think this is going to be a question that only high level OT’s can answer. I’m reading Virginia’s answer above. I think she has a good answer. You’ve stumped me.
The cop assumed he had a gun. You can hear the wife saying in her video “He doesn’t have a gun.” But the cop was not hearing what she was saying. He saw what he wanted to see.
The Charlotte PD should release the video they have … if it makes them look bad, so be it. If he actually had a gun, don’t you think they would have produced that evidence immediately?
I do not know how this relates to ‘topics covered here since 31 August’. Unless you meant the people saw what they want to see – or expected to see – or interpreted what they read as what they thought was being said…as opposed to what was actually being said.
I was never in, so (as some have posted) I have no right to voice an opinion. However, I will say this anyway. Scientologists (and anti-scientologists) are not being killed for being what they are (or were). Black people are.
My son is black, and I worry every night until he arrives home from work. What if his car breaks down? He has no weapon, but that matters not to the police…they will see what they expect to see and react.
Marisa – He’s saying it *wasn’t* a trick question and he liked your answer. I liked it too!
Marisa, I think Marty’s reply to you was favorable. His first sentence seemed to be in answer to what you asked at the end (“Did I pass? . . . )
Thank you 🙂
Body centricity is the bane of humanity. Seeing skin pigmentation as having any value in determining the character of human beings will be studied in the future by a more enlightened society as brutish and ignorant of our true nature.
Evaluating human beings by race, gender, ethnicity etc is what I call body centricity.
It is evidence of an unevolved society.
We are souls; sentient beings, colorless, self effulgent. Our true characteristics are joy, love, wisdom, never born, never die, eternal.
It is barbarism to see ourselves as race. Our bodies have a racial component. But we are not our bodies. Therefore our bodies have nothing to do with the quality of who we are.
Tat Tvam Asi………. Thou Art That
Could Cat Daddy be someone we know? 😉
I think the relation you ask about may be in the areas of perception, delusion and reality …. essentially the question being “What is REALLY going on here?”
At the moment we only have conjecture about what he held in his hand. As for how it relates to topics covered, it is being used to attempt to make the issues appear to be either black or white.
Everything seems to be interpreted in such
a black or white manner.
It is tiresome. Fact is there is 50 shades in between.
Of course a book is very different than a gun and
with all the tech now available with even grainy
far off video images it seems it should be easy to
ascertain what the victim was holding in his hand.
Nancy, your worries are very real but with so much
attention focused on these issues we are bound to
get to a better place.
Interesting on your comment of “he saw what he wanted
to see” as in Scientology LRH designed a drill of how to
observe something as it really is without putting in your
own interpretations into the picture. The police could use
such a drill to help combat wrong actions taken when they
have to react in a split instant and with adrenalin pumping
you mean to say ‘they’ just didn’t listen to what Monique said (in a way?). They didn’t ‘duplicate’ it.
In answering this – I am drawing from a comment on the previous blog entry wherein the commenter ended his comment with: “Live and let live, eh?”
That is precisely why Keith Scott, I believe, was shot.
WE cannot let others live and let live. We must marginalize them. We must make them into other.
AND if we live in the US, mostly not in the south or large urban areas some of us can be thankful thinking “I’m a woman, I’m white and I’m now (cough) old(er) so chances are IF I am pulled over – I will be “LET LIVE.”
HOWEVER, I am going to be an aunt in March. My sister’s to-be-husband is an African-American. They’ve been together 25 years but his circumstances were such they couldn’t start their own family or live together. (they chose to BE together, not live together). His sister had lots of problems. He raised in his family home, with his mother – his two nephews. And they grew, went to college and started families of their own. Then he took care of his aging mother with dementia – who recently passed.
And now — yikes – a baby is on the way. This is a high risk pregnancy due to her age (45) —
BUT more that than. This child — my niece or nephew – will this child be allowed to live or let live.
I know my heart will drop when I hear of a shooting in their area. What was previously not DIRECTLY (within my family) affecting me, now will. I could pontificate about the racial divide. Now I will live it.
The hate and mockery coming from the other blogs is painful. They are seemingly locked in hate. Even when they come to this blog to ask even in a somewhat decent fashion — it is WITH an agenda OR a story of how much pain scientology brought them.
LEADING WITH — this is how much he/she/the organization hurt me — and now I must tell my story to SAVE OTHERS – is unworkable.
SOMEONE will always have a more painful story.
Better to lead with — I was there. It helped or didn’t. I left and now I’m doing this.
Mark lead the way and took the incredible heat. Others did too but Mark was the one I related to. Our back stories have some similarities. AND I personally know him. And trust him.
So – was it a book or a gun? Sometimes, it’s a book in these stories. Sometimes it’s a gun. Sometimes it’s neither. It’s just hate that sees.
I believe that the only possible way for us, as a world to survive, is to continue planting positive seeds, work on ourselves to eliminate negative seeds that rest in our “subconscious” (but are there for the looking) and never let defeat win. Just get up and move up.
We are all God’s children. We all breath the same air, nurtured by the same sun. Rip off our skin and we are all the same. Hearts, lungs, brain etc.
The Infinite Spirit has projected out of ItSelf the multiplicity of forms.
When humanity can see that we are from the same Source, we will have more harmony on earth.
The rest is ignorance.
It only gives you two choices. Book or gun.
What about non of the above?
The great sage Martin Luther King studied Mahatma Gandhi (maha means great and atma means soul)
He fashioned his non violent movement after Gandhi’s non violent movement (Ahimsa in Sanskrit means do no harm. Ahimsa is one of the 8 limbs or principles to be followed by yogis. Gandhi was a yogi and initiated by teacher Paramahansa Yogananda. A portion of Gandhi’s ashes are interred at Lake Shrine in Malibu. One of our temples by Pacific Ocean.
Gandhi also was influenced by Jesus.
So if you were to look for and find the ideological source for these two giants of the spirit and moral nature, you will find the Vedas, Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras, the Gita and the Bible as the intellectual food which fed a most power change in east and west society.
Both of these men had an abiding faith in the Supreme Spirit; God
Just look at how society has given these men the laurel wreath of the hero. Their very names equate to greatness!
Joseph Campbell has said,” if you want to know about a person, find out the stories they follow and believe in.”
In the case of MLK and Gandhi, they have followed the doctrines of liberated saints and masters. The effect of this adherence has made them heroes. That is because the doctrines of the sages are universally recognized by all beings as a superior way of living. A true sage is accepted by all. Like Gandalf and other storied heroes.
They lived the very definition of greatness; “to love all despite all provocations to do otherwise” LRH (but in Ron’s case he used this line as a sales pitch for greatness. Heroes do not need to sell. Their very lives are living examples of truth. They do not darn truth like a fashion or gimmick to boost sales)
Race, politics, gender, ethnicity etc. by their very nature are divisive. They are division.
When humanity knows itself to be a spiritual being living in bodies, the deadly limitations and scourge of race hatred will finally be seen as a cave man-ish.
Soul consciousness unites. Race consciousness divides.
This model is nowhere to be found in the learned behavior of Scientology.
That is because Ron’s story, that he followed, was that he was the only sage to find the real truth of life.
And that “truth” included violent retribution against real or imagined enemies. Totally the opposite of a MLK or Gandhi.
Some in the post Scientology world who have escaped physically but not mentally, still practice this story of destroy antagonists.
Jesus, Krishna, Buddha never had an Intel Black Ops paramilitary arm of the Eight Fold Path, Ten Commandments and Eight Limbs of Yoga.
Your last post Mark, illustrated for all to see just how easy it is for human beings to demonstrate what they have learned and studied.
I was actually quite surprised to see just how many jumped on the wagon of character assassination.
But why should I be surprised? It’s simply a story that has been “study teched” demoed, internalized and put into action.
One philosophy says, “love thine enemies”
And one says, “destroy them utterly”
Which one do you follow?
“gunned down” = shot and killed?
“by police” = by a policeman?
Not exactly a neutral starting point
At this point, the only thing I know for sure that would be real for me is – if 4-5 policeman, with their guns pointed at me were yelling over and over again “drop the gun”, I would have screamed back “I do NOT have a gun”. Yet, there was silence from Mr. Scott. Most of these sad incidences have “drugs” (street and psycription) as a common factor, too much time on people’s hands and lack of respect on both sides of the issue.
There are a lot of possible responses to the question which, like yours, are all perfectly valid if the question relates to the parallels that the reader herself is drawing. However, if the task is, “Try and guess what valid parallels that I see between the two,” then Marty is the sole arbitrator there. The parallel that strikes me as most noteworthy is the failure in communication between the victim and his and the police on the scene, just prior to the shooting, as well as the much more longstanding lack of meaningful dialogue, leading to effective police reform, between many black communities across the country and their respective police forces.
Prompts that induce critical thinking are almost never a bad idea, but in this instance perhaps a better thought-provoking question would be a follow-up that addressed the questions that Brian, Martin Padfield, myself and others have repeatedly raised in every one of Marty’s most recent set of blog threads.
The perpetuation of aggrieved butt hurt, conflict and divisiveness within the post-$cn community only serves the purpose of the one group that everyone who cares about families and basic human rights should be opposed to first and foremost, the $cn cherch and its sociopathic leader. It really IS as simple as that. No other interpersonal conflict comes anywhere near being as serious a concern as that. And factional us vs. them group conflict does either.
And if there are other malign factions, as Marty and others here have stated who are also sowing discord and division, then they should also be called on that behavior and gently encouraged to put aside the personal in the service of creating unity and coherence in the fight to restore basic human rights within the cherch and wherever else in the world that they’ve been abridged.
This is an easily understood, completely valid and extremely well-articulated position that, so far, has not been taken up and grappled with by this blog’s host or his most prolific and longstanding contributors.
Why is that so?
According to his wife, Mr. Scott was the victim of TBI – traumatic brain injury. From the video I’ve seen, I got that she was trying to help him understand what was going on, and also trying to assure the police that he had no gun and intended no harm.
Do you think it is workable to (quoting you) “gently encourage” Ortega and his followers and those on similar sites “to put aside the personal in the service of creating unity and coherence in the fight to restore basic human rights within the cherch and wherever else in the world that they’ve been abridged”?
And you assume that these 4-5 policemen would act with rationality when you shout back “I do not have a gun.” And not through a veil of prejudice towards a black man.
Or through a veil of extreme anxiety over police shootings.
Or a myriad of other possibilities.
Clearly you have never been confronted by 4-5 policemen with their guns drawn on you.
OR even 1 person – not a policeman with his gun on you.
When you have experienced the above AND SURVIVED — comment again.
Your point, I believe, is to show how drugs – street or otherwise are at the core of “these sad incidences” …
Thank you CCHR spokesperson.
I believe the first step is to acknowledge the fact that everyone either consciously or subconsciously carries bias. Until a person is able to recognize it in himself/herself, these tragedies will continue. Many people tell me, “I don’t see color”. That is crap-just like we see a person’s gender, hair color and clothing, we also see their skin tone. It is how we personally interprete what we see that trips us up.
I can give a personal example. I was raised in a southern town where people were either black or white (no other ethnic groups). I left at 18 and lived around the country, including NYC. I didn’t even know what a bagel was until I was 21! I was exposed to many cultures and also got two MA degrees from top universities (Columbia and Notre Dame). I don’t say this to toot my own horn, but to make my story clear. I had been educated, lived and worshipped in diverse communities.
Fast forward 12 years. I was back in the south, married and had a newborn son. The first time I took him to the pediatrician, I looked around the reception area and froze. I saw black children there and my first (unconscious) response was, “Is this a good doctor?”
I didn’t realize that underneath it all I carried a prejudice hidden from my conscious mind. I was shocked and had to examine where it had come from. I recognized that when I was a child in the 60’s, that segregation was still enforced and white kids went to white doctors and black kids went to black doctors. Implicit in this idea was that white doctors were better than other doctors.
I had to accept that attitude was from my childhood and had reared it’s ugly head when I had my own child. Needless to say, I examined my heart and rejected that stereotype as stupid. No one likes to admit they have ingrained biases. The answer is not to deny them, but examine them and their source. Only then can we start to change on the inside. I hope that people learn to examine their prejudices (and repent), instead of pushing them down and pretending they have not been influenced by childhood experiences. I am enjoying other’s comments on this difficult subject.
You get too invested in taking sides and the truth takes a back seat to making your perceived enemy wrong . To one side it has to be a gun. To the other it has to be a book. It’s no longer about looking at actual data and determining the truth, it’s about making the story fit your bias.
The first casualty of was is truth.
I suspect some of the problems like this we are having with police may be caused by lawyers. Apparently the legal justification for use of lethal force is whether the officer felt threatened or something like that? It’s up to the officer to decide if he “reasonably believes” the suspect may pose a threat. So you get incidents like a guy with earbuds who doesn’t hear the cop behind him telling him to stop, reaches in his pocket to turn off his iPod and gets shot.
Perhaps we could also gently encourage the police and those in government who sanction them to kill unarmed citizens with impunity. Surely they would listen to us?
Common sense would suggest that he should not have had access to a gun. And then there is this:
According to a story in The Christian Times, who they claim verified with The Charlotte Observer, Keith Lamont Scott had a two decades long history of gun violence, including an arrest/conviction for shooting at police officers in Texas. Felons are not allowed to possess a gun!
Yes I do, or at least with a substantial majority of the folks who post there.
I’m not offering suggestions or recommending actions that I’m unwilling to engage in myself. Quite to the contrary, I fully agree that if other individuals and factions are engaging in unproductive in-fighting to the detriment of the larger cause, then calling them on that behavior is fair treatment to all.
What’s ironic, and more than a little discouraging here, is that there has not been one single individual who has argued in opposition to the very simple and easy to understand position that Brian, Martin, myself and others have presented in very explicit detail here and on numerous occasions. That’s because, if your real goal is to resolve, rather than create, enmity and to heal division, then there is no other way forward and everyone who’s given it any deep thought whatsoever knows that.
Look, I’m no saint; I’ve been locked in interminable conflict with others at various points in my own life, so I can attest that it’s no easy task to disengage yourself from them. However, I’m glad that those around me had the presence of mind and wisdom to advise me in exactly the same way that many here have advised Marty and those who’ve screamed for blood alongside of him.
The first casualty of war. Apple auto correct is way better than android
Or, as you put it on Tony Ortega’s blog 4 hours ago:
“Several of his [Marty’s] regular contributors and long-time supporters have withdrawn from the conversation (or propagandist screed, if you prefer), based on how enturbulated they’ve become over the so-called anti-$cn cult’s hateful antics and merciless belittling of their friend.
It seems very clear to me that, whether purposefully intended or not, the effect of this latest spate of Marty blog posts, and his comments on the ensuing discussion threads, has been to sow conflict, exacerbate existing divisions, fan the flames of aggrieved butt hurt and generally distract folk’s attention from the far greater evils that $cn, under the malign and sadistic leadership of lil davey the savage, has continued to perpetuate.
There have been many posts to his blog pointing that out in a variety of very well-articulated ways, and many more that were censored out, but none of them have been able to get any traction on moving the conversation on in more productive directions and toward the resolution of conflict.
So, whether it’s duped and back in enthrall to his evil former master, or just so angry and hate-filled that no peace entreaties even register, the result is exactly the same. Time to leave Marty to self-immolate or douse himself before it’s too late.” You have written more inflammatory words of attack in Tony’s Bunker section this week than the total word count of words published this entire year by me. In short, you are trolling – apparently by the volume of it – for a living. I understand today’s distraction – that is, from the post at hand – because you have demonstrated to me in the past how you feel about black people. Your hood ain’t serving its purpose.
Simple answer: “the dangers of a single story”. Now I finally understand why Mark has described the last month’s posts in terms of trolling. The Bunkerites/ESMB lynch mobs have assumed that he 100% BELIEVES the alternative narratives he’s been offering, rather than saying “what if…”.
Wow – you are waaaaay out there, windhorsegalley, I stated what I would do!! no idea what the cops would do. Your prejudice is dsgusting.
Voice of ASC.
1. I don’t know.
2. All I can think of is Tony Ortega’s peddling of “information”, when he is actually using his blog as a weapon to destroy people and create chaos, mistrust, riots, ill will, street fights, and generally propel people into fits of sadism.
But hey, he’s got bills to pay.
“We made a decision some time ago that the only way we’d continue to stay in this game was to focus not on the same old political essay writing but on original reporting, surprising our readers by not being predictable, and by doing our best to piss off everyone — right, left, and center.”
” It’s the old hippie ideal of endlessly pushing a lefty agenda to keep up your “movement” cred. Hey, good luck with that. But I live in a cutthroat town, and I have salaries to pay. Your version of “alternative” wouldn’t last a month here”.
“I’m satisfied with the two sex columns I have now, and I really don’t have room for additional columns at the moment. But thanks for thinking of us”.
– Tony Ortega
Pleased to meet you. I like knowing who I’m talking to and *if* I figured it out correctly. I guess I did.
I’ve only just begun.
“Like most bullies, Ortega has two responses when when someone fights back;
First he whines.
Then, he starts with the threats.
So much for Ortega’s sense of justice, and for his prose style as well. But he wasn’t hired to write. What about his editorial cred? Who, actually, is Tony Ortega?”
I just watched the videos. I believe it was his wallet.
I suspect some of the problems we are having is because of the media restimulating people.
Trigger happy policeman. They come in all sorts of packages.
“If you write about Scientology, you will find a massive audience. I think it’s a combination of the fact that there are some celebrities involved, that they’re very secretive about what they do, and that they’re bullies, and they get away with it.”
“Scientology takes all of America’s most closely held beliefs and ideas about itself—freedom and tolerance—and turns them around and uses them as weapons. They’re able to get away with destroying people—”
Was it a book or a gun?
Depends on who you ask.
Better than to walk through live like a mindless zombie believing everything is dandy.
Definitely that too. That has become the definition of the “news”. Showing you the most restimulative things in the most sensational way.
I’m not sure the connection to answer your question.
I do have another question, for history.
There are three LRH references that I think are related to how the movement has failed to keep their “top brass” “cleaned up.”
When LRH was alive, Jesse Prince as the first “IG Cram Off” was ordered and followed the general lines of the famous “IG Cram Off” RTC advice from Hubbard, and Jesse did Miscavige’s cramming and sec checking, at least once.
My question for history, was did Miscavige EVER receive either Cramming or MAAing, but anyone, in line with LRH’s “IG Cram Off” and the “IG MAA” and the orders of that 1982 time period with all the top brass at Int were getting FPRD?
I’d like to know if during that period, just after Jesse was doing Miscavige’s cramming and ethics and sec checking, how was David Miscavige?
Did the tech and cramming “work” on him, in the sense and with the intent of Hubbard’s IG Cram Off, IG MAA and another reference that is from 1959, the “Individuation” lecture mentions that when the top guy goes off the rails, then someone needs to get that top guy on the meter for a sec check cleanup on OWs.
I mean, to me, what I’d like to hear, is history of how Scientology’s/Hubbard’s own medicine (OW pulling, FPRD, MAAing, Cramming) which Hubbard DID wish to be part of the continual cleanup of the “top brass” of Scientology, that WAS in fact and IS in fact in Hubbard’s final writings.
I noted them, and as late as 1995 when I was the Temp/In-Training Executive Establishment Officer for ASI, my priority was getting a new MAA for ASI, someone who theoretically would have the stature to “get ethics in” on someone like Norman Starkey, since by 1995 Norman had been busted out of ASI back to Int for “cleanup”.
So the tech of “cleaning up” the top brass (Norman being one), included the principles of the “Individuation” tape (sec check, pull OWs on the top guy too, when the top guy goes off the rails).
My question or concern, is that in history terms, I hope in the years ahead you answer how it was that in Scientology history, Miscavige has escaped up to this position that NO ONE directly under him, can get Miscavige sec checked, MAAed, Crammed, on Miscavige’s violations.
What I see, historically, is the Hubbard “medicine” not being used on the “top” guy, minimally.
Not that anyone deserves vicious application of Hubbard’s “medicine” when it isn’t something any normal leader in the world would stomach being issued to them.
But Hubbard’s idea was to have someone, like the IG Cram Off, do like Jesse did, which was cram and do ethics stuff on Miscavige.
Do you think that those Hubbard writings (IG Cram Off, IG MAA, Individuation tape) are sufficient enough for a group like Scientology and how would you advise history ought to have been different so that Miscavige didn’t rise to this tyrant top guy today?
Please comment for history, for those humans who decades from now, do get stuck in Scientology’s “top brass” positions, and have this same problem occur?
That to me is the type of history question I had hoped Chris Shelton would get up to asking someone like Marty.
Is there any way out of this predicament of having such a dominant personality who slowly sidelines the others, so that the others don’t do the “top guy” “handling” options that Hubbard wrote into policy for the group?
In the lead-up to WWII, Catholic radio priest Father Coughlin had a unique funding/money-laundering support system for his war-building tactics. Thousands of supposed individuals sent in donations, usually ranging from 1 to 5 dollars, all sent in individual envelopes through the U.S. mail system. Bags and bags of them. It was later revealed that these funds were actually being funneled through Chase bank by a VERY few inidividuals, at least one or two of which were deep cover intelligence operatives who were actually working for British intelligence AND German intelligence.
Updated to today’s modern electronic community, could this be how Tony Ortega’s supposedly innocent “donations” are also structured?
Aug. 31, Ruthless
Sept. 4, Ruthless Bunker Mentality
Sept. 5, Louis Theroux’s Scientology Movie
Sept. 9, Tony Ortega’s Cowardly Invention of News
Sept. 13, Ruthless: Rape and Hypocrisy
Sept. 17, Non-Peakers vs. Peakers
Sept. 19, How Gullible Can One Get?
Sept. 23, Was It A Book Or Was It A Gun?
Who knows and who cares honestly. You gotta ask those prolific contributors to his blog that you mention above. You’re making this a much more complicated issue than it is. I can say this, I do not like people representing myself and ex scio kids who still act like totalitarian cult leaders. It disgusts me. Which is why I agree with Marty’s stance of The ASC.
I have no idea where I first read it and I’m probably misquoteing, but someone once said “The only way to replace an idea is with a better idea.”
I’ve learned many new ideas and replaced quite a few of my ideas since participating on this blog.
I am omnipotent. just kidding. I have been posting on this news forum almost since it’s inception.
Cornelius Anthonius Martens at your servics.
Or KKS if you prefere
Mmmm, maybe you are someone we all know.