How Gullible Can One Get?


It came to my attention that some fellow gave a youtube lecture about what he called a conflict between Tony Ortega and me. When I went to the video I saw a man calling himself Chris Shelton ‘critical thinker at large.’ It would be difficult to imagine more inflated airs of self-absorbed arrogance than this fellow manages to put on; nor a mind as infected with hive-mentality.

Mr. Shelton claims in the video not to know anything about what went down behind the scenes in the terminations of Monique Rathbun’s lawyers and lawsuit – delivered with a tongue-in-cheek smirk. But, he comes to the authoritative conclusion that I have somehow overreacted to Ortega’s four-month campaign smearing my wife and me over the issue. He concludes it is a function of the damaged former Scientologist mind – a syndrome he claims to be an expert in.

I learned that before these broadcasted profundities Shelton was making the ASC (Anti-Scientology Cult) rounds swearing people to secrecy before giving them the ‘real story’ behind the terminations. He swore the story was obtained straight from Monique’s former lawyer’s mouth. Shelton’s rumor-monger account – if believed – would mean that either Tony Ortega made up and published quotes attributed to Ray Jeffrey about his former client, or that Ray Jeffrey simply lied like a flatfish throughout his ‘exclusive’ Ortega interview. That would be the ‘Quiz Street’ interview where Jeffrey swore he did not have a clue as to which way was up.

Between Ortega’s plethora of claims as to ‘inside knowledge’ and then Shelton’s, it seems they would like the ASC krew to believe that Jeffrey is more like Perez Hilton than Perry Mason.

In either event, it demonstrates that Shelton at best is not playing with a full deck. He delivers psych analyses giving knowingly false premises to support his damning conclusions.

Looking further into Shelton’s gig I learned something remarkable. He has posted dozens of videos pontificating about the damaged minds of Scientologists (current and former). They are delivered with the self-sure authority of an Ivy League shrink.  Paradoxically, Shelton’s principle support for putting out his mass psychiatric diagnoses comes from someone who purports to deliver Scientology services at the highest level of proficiency. Shelton’s benefactor also pays Tony Ortega to, among other things, regularly post Shelton’s ramblings at The Underground Bunker.

More remarkable is that some former Scientologists actually pass around Shelton’s mental-deficiency diagnoses of themselves. Brain dead, and damn proud of it.

327 responses to “How Gullible Can One Get?

  1. I recommend never watching video lectures posted online. If a person can’t express themselves concisely in written English, they are unlikely to have anything worthwhile to say.

  2. He did let me know about the movie, “Hell or HighWate”. It was a great recommend. Best movie I’ve seen in awhile.

  3. Some very funny lines. Poor Chris Shelton. He’s such a babe in the woods.

  4. I suppose you know you’ve made it to the Central Cabal (There Is No Cabal) of the Anti-Scientology Community when someone offers you (a) money, (b) the Troo Sekrit History of Why Marty Rejoined OSA and Hypnotised Monique.

  5. Blocked the idiot runt on FB years ago.

  6. Have you seen his merchandise? Size schmedium shirts with goofy crap on them.

  7. singanddanceall

    A lot of hubbard’s writings regarding the tech of scientology were actually recorded lectures and then put forth as written material. Ron also did a lot of filming to demonstrate the tech.

  8. singanddanceall

    do we a link to the video?

  9. singanddanceall

    What are the funny lines, why is he poor and why a babe in the woods?

  10. He really is…isn’t he. He just has no clue what he’s actually part of.

  11. I didn’t see one. I guess for now, you’ll have to brave the big bad internet by your own self.


  12. singanddanceall

    I have no idea what you are communicating about?

    Could you please be more precise?

  13. singanddanceall

    Who is He, why was it the best movie you’ve seen in awhile?

  14. singanddanceall

    I have no idea what you are talking about?

  15. singanddanceall

    can you explain what you mean?

  16. It’s socks gone wild!


    Cue: What is Socks? What is Que? Why are you counting?

    Sub Cue: Are you making fun? What you for mean that to do?

  17. Yes. The Church was so insistent that we listen or watch instead of simply reading the transcripts, and that was a nuisance to us hyperlexic folks who take in information much more easily by reading. And a speaker can use tricks of their voice or body language to game the listener; the written word is more objective.

    But here I was thinking more of the bandwidth that videos consume, and the time spent watching them, when text would take a few Kb.

  18. I hear he is working on a book –
    “Scientology Made Simple for Idiots”

  19. Marty, did you get a preview copy of Steve Cannane’s Fair Game which was release today and, if so, are you intending to review? If you haven’t already read it, do you to get a copy, read it, then comment at that time?

    “I learned that before these broadcasted profundities Shelton was making the ASC (Anti-Scientology Cult) rounds swearing people to secrecy before giving them the ‘real story’ behind the terminations. ”

    I just wanted to mention that there’s a logic grenade in that statement: If Chris only told his story to those who agreed to keep it secret, and you then found out from those same folks what the story was, that would make them liars for having broke their vow of secrecy to him and would also make them unreliable sources with regard to what they told you.

    In any event, you’ve alluded to certain unnamed persons and some kind of story. Who was told what when? Without providing us the specific details of your accusations, we have no way of evaluating those vague claims at all.

  20. That would be a great book – if it were written by someone who knew what scientology actually was.

    Anyway, Marty already wrote that book but titled it *What’s Wrong with Scientology: Healing through Understanding*.

  21. Here some more information about the type of people that Chris Shelton hangs around with.

  22. Just a point of correction….It wasn’t the cherch who insisted that we listen to lectures or videos…it was Hubbard himself, in the early 80’s when he started Golden Era Studios (later Productions) specifically to produce visual representations of the tech to train with. He said it was turning into and audio/visual world, with people relying on watching things rather than reading. So the audio recording and visual cinematic film studios were built near Hemet.

    There were always transcripts available for anyone who wanted to read or re-study the lectures and films, or follow along while listening/watching. Well…there were supposed to be…not sure what they did to squirrel that up in more recent years too. Sigh….

  23. Yep.

    I was so shocked that Chris Shelton would run the OSA line that Ex-Scientologists were crazy that I wrote a post about it in my blog.

    I’m not saying Chris Shelton is OSA, I’m saying that the line he ran, that “all Ex-Scientologists are crazy” is a well worn OSA Dead Agent line for critics of Scientology.

    And right there was a critic of Scientology broadcasting it in one of his videos – which was shown on Tony’s blog and paid for by Karen De La Carriere.

    Seems to be a lot of people running that line lately.

    Again, I’m not saying that any one of them are OSA, I’m saying that the lines they are running are OSA’s lines.

    Isn’t that weird?


  24. Singanddanceall, you come across as trolling by asking so many questions, of me and others. If you sincerely want to understand, you need to do more reading of past blog posts and comment threads. Or you could get someone to help you, one on one. But I doubt anyone on a comment thread is willing to go into big long explanations. Your questions show you need more background.

  25. Yup. But I doubt he has a sinister motive. He found a place for himself after leaving the Sea Org (where he had been since he was a teenager, I believe). Got to give him credit for that.

  26. Here’s a transcript of Chris’ statement:

    “You know there’s a lot of Scientology survivors out there. People got into Scientology for all different kinds of reasons. They come out of Scientology for all different kinds of reasons. And people go to Scientology in all kinds of different mental states, they come out of Scientology in all different kinds of mental states – generally worse than when they came in to one degree or another.’

    “And don’t misconstrue anything I’m saying as you know I’m calling anybody crazy or any kind of extreme nonsense …because it’s not… just … [Look at] the words that are coming out of my mouth. ok? There is no labeling going on here. I’m simply making observations about the fact that Scientology screws people up and sometimes people were a bit screwed up you know before they got in and they got more screwed up coming out. And sometimes people were all right when they got in and they’re screwed up when they get out.’

    “You know there’s a recovery process we talk about and we call it recovery for a reason. Because that’s what it is, you know? You have people especially Ex-Sea Org members suffer from various shades of depression, PTSD, other mental and psychological issues.’

    “You know it’s just there’s trauma connected with it and it’s so easy on the part of many people, not just Scientologists, to say there’s no such thing as mental trauma or mental illness or PTSD and things like this and they just fluff it off. And I really don’t know where they get off doing that because it’s very real. As somebody who’s lived it I can tell you that it is very real.”

    Did you notice how he says Exes are crazy and then says that he’s not saying Exes are crazy?

    In the psych world of Rachel Bernstein, that’s called “passive aggressive”.


  27. How gullible?
    Not gullible enough to believe this is still Marty’s blog.
    I will safely prophesize: When Steve’s “Fair Game” Gets reviewed by Marty(?) on this site, it will be trashed, bashed, and dead-agented.

  28. Chris Shelton is just trying to make a living. He has a Youtube channel You can even become a PATRON I kid you not. He has a link on his heading to become a patron.

    He needs an audience, he knows what sells. He always wanted to become an entertainer blah blah blah here he goes on the money machine. He wants attention and tips and he is just edging in to make a buck.

    His “brand” is convincing people they are stupid, and need him to tell them how to think.

    Now that he is being showcased, he is becoming a spectacle. And loving every minute of it.

    But at the end of the day, he is click bait just like Tony Ortega.

    They are hooking. Using the Internet.

  29. Scientologists are a very traditional tribe. They move and think on tradition because most of them, that’s all they know.

    The tradition becomes normal habits and routines.

    The way David Miscavige took over the Church, was relying on these traditions. Scientologists are homies for the most part. Mainly, they know what the others are doing and thinking, and co ordinate thereby and there with.

    But what if one among them, has gone rogue? Without informing the others?

    This is how Miscavige took power. He went rogue and nobody else knew what he was doing or thinking. So nobody else could co ordinate there by and there with.

    This tossed people into confusion and he was able to conquer and divide.

    Out here, people still assume their tribe is co ordinating thereby and therewith.

    But Tony Ortega is not pledged to these doctrines and it is not his tradition. In fact, he has been hired as a mole and plant and brags about being a hatchet man. Go back and read my recent posts if you need the references and his own quotes.

    What happens, is that people assume he is co coordinating thereby and there with, as a team mate. But he is not.

    So when he “goes rogue”, like Miscavige, he creates confusion and conflict. People assume he had a “back up crew” and is coordinating thereby and therewith. because that is a tradition. He is not. And he banks on your mystery.

    I hereby on this open forum, accuse Tony Ortega of going rogue much to the shock and dismay of everyone close to Marty, and making it appear as a coordinated effort where he had some kind of support.

    Leaving people in mystery and listing, and turning on one another. He did it not only once, but many times. He just went rogue.

    Nobody on this Earth said or implied to Tony Ortega, that Monique took a pay out. That Marty should be watched and could not be trusted. Not one single person. Even Monique’s lawyer in an interview said he did not believe such a thing.


    He asked everyone close to Marty and everyone who knew Marty and everyone who had a senior position in the Church if they thought Marty took a payout. They all said NO WAY.

    People just don’t assume this slick m’ker would go rogue and fk everyone.

    Do you know what he is doing now that a war is on? Trying to shake down people for intel on Marty so he can run more sensational headlines.

    This is one little slick creepy self interested SOCIOPATH who is willing to set up anyone up for a loss to roll a headline.

    He invents scandal and conflict and lives off other people’s misery. He thinks with the war he created, more people will get harmed and he will profit from revenge motivation. Get more dirt.

    This is a horror story screen play. He is a fkn story. A film. A book.

    Chris Shelton is just running around pimping himself within the storm.Looking for patrons because he is a “critical thinker”. Former “galactic patrol” is he for REAL? Oh yeah Babe.

    And he has 7000 subscribers! These are National Enquirer public who prefer to wallow in squalor. Who is going to fix that? None of us!

    When the I.R.S. backed off the Church, Miscavige turned on his own support structure and gobbled them up.

    Now OSA got the cramm! They pulled off Ortega, things got slow, and he is setting people up out here to take a dive, so he can “arrive”.

    Do you know how many people wanted and needed Tammy Baker?

    People get played, it happens every day.After a while you realize it is never going to end. Not for them.

  30. Well I have news for you all. I’m starting an image finally. My name is Marisa Sigmond. ‘Biggest Thinker on The Planet’

    I think more than any critic or ex Scientologist thus far. My thoughts are far more superior than anyone’s. Even though I don’t know anything about Marty, I can tell you this: Not knowing is resisting what you actually DO know. So, I don’t know why Marty does what he does? But I know that he does it. You all following me? Seriously. Start changing your mind pattern to this.

    Realize your unknowingness is actually uncertainty. That uncertainty is at cause over confusion. I dunno what I’m saying? But it sounds pretty damn awesome.

    So when you don’t know something, just say you do know. Because it sounds good. And everyone will believe ya anyways. It’s like knowing how to know when you know nothing.

    Get this mindset and your own Youtube Channel. You will be a famous Scientology philosopher. Of the anti-sort. Set up a GoFundMe. Ask for $50,000. You’ll be amazed. Try it! It works!

    You know how Trump had his Trump University? I want to start an ASC University. Make $50,000 in 3 months by lying about making A Scientology book or documentary. Someone help me with this. Please! This can be a big project $$$. PM me on FB if interested. I am highly qualified in Scio Lingo. I just need someone to fund this project. It will be a 60/40 split.

  31. There are women in this arena that know Tony was profiting off of child sex slavery , and they will throw themselves on the rail road tracks to defend him. They don’t care.

    It isn’t me or you or anyone we really know. They do not care and it is their bottom line across the boards and it includes children.

    Is it any wonder they do not care about you, or me, or other people?

    What the hell! These are people with developmental problems and LEARNING DISABILITIES They do not understand themselves. Why get angry? At them? Do I get angry at handicapped people? No I don’t. They are handicapped. Learning disabilities manifest in social intercourse. Not only in the classroom.

    Someday and in our lifetime, people are going to come to understand this the world will seem a lot less confusing. And hopefully, some laws can be put in place against exploiting them

  32. Anyway, whatever juvenile mischief they are up to on the Internet, and I have seen some very funky things in the last week, it does not effect me when having this understanding.

  33. miscavigeisscaredofsam

    To my ex ‘friends’ in the ‘soon to be defunct official’ ‘cherch’ of scientology. Thanks for nothing. my life has been so much better since I walked away from your self-serving lies and I don’t miss any of you. To my ex ‘friends’ in the soon to be defunct unofficial ‘cherch’ of Scientology – same message. See ya. Wouldn’t wanna be ya.
    Gullible Marty? I don’t think so. Two-faced, egotistical, cowardly, greedy, desperate and utterly pathetic.
    Do you understand that ‘songanddance’? or do we need to draw a diagram as well as wipe your bum for you?

  34. miscavigeisscaredofsam

    Why does Marty need to review the book? There are at least 10 mental health expert ex Scientologists over at the Bunker climbing over each other like crabs trying to get to the top of the bucket. Why take all those upvotes away from those who so desperately need it?

  35. Dear Marty,
    What is the point of ripping apart various people. I get you may not like how Chris talks. Keep in mind, he’s relatively newly out of the Cult. If you disagree with him, have you spoken with him at all? I honestly do not get what the purpose is of ragging on people you used to be on the same page with.
    You know what it looks and sounds like. i know you do. So? What’s the real haps, lad? You obviously don’t have to answer me. You can start tearing me a part ….no problemo. I still would like to know 2 things:
    1) What happened to Lisa in those last 3 days?
    2) Why are you now tearing a part people you used to be on the same page with? Think about it, please. Tory/Magoo

  36. ‘Schmedium’ is a made up word that means ‘medium’ (it’s a size between ‘small’ and ‘large’). ‘goofy’ means silly and unimportant and crap is pretty self explanatory.

  37. Today’s Double Bonus Word is…..Sphincter.

  38. It depends on the subject matter. True, reading goes a lot faster, while graphics and listening to people talk can be quite annoying. But I watch many DIY demonstrations on Youtube and have picked up many good tips that way, gotten some great ideas, and saved a lot of time.

  39. Bites tongue for the sake of old times… except to say I hope you are happy now you have ‘made friends’ with those who used to torment YOU.
    Same page as you? Never in a million years turncoat.

  40. LOL!!! Yeah, over at the Bunker they’re very concerned about them upvotes! (Crawling over each other like crabs trying to get to the top of the bucket! Bwahahahahaha…..I’m betting this is going to be the funniest line of the day)

  41. If you promise not to mention David Love’s creepy sex crimes anymore, promise to bow to the Queen of Scientology (Pay her tribute), and give fealty to that grrreeeeeaat Journalist TO, then your business endeavor will expand at a minimum 10X rate!!

  42. To me it is all just ex snipe hunters discussing their changing views of their snipe hunting history related to the L. Ron Hubbard Scientology subject.

    I can pick out the interesting details of history from everyone’s conversations, and I also can read and enjoy the very smart observers who make great observations.

    I like hearing the history details that leak out in the middle of all the conversation.

    But the cross criticism of ex members, seems to be human, it’s present in all the chat sites I’ve ever read.

    I just suffer hearing it, and look for history and smart observations.

  43. I must be really in the pits because I actually *get* that one. Ah well, such is life.

  44. OK. I’ll give it a shot. Tony Ortega makes wild accusations about Mosey and Marty having sold out to David Miscavige/OSA and claims to have super sekrit evidence of such. Marty refutes said allegations and while the Bunkeroos are in a state of electrification squawking and upvoting themselves, Tony neatly switches gears and moves onto the next piece of salacious gossip.
    The recent blogs and discussions here have been mostly about Ortega’s refusal to present evidence to back up said allegations and the Bunkeroos denying they ganged up like rabid dogs to attack Marty for something he didn’t do in the first place.
    Easiest solution? Ortega apologises to Marty (in private if he wishes), cleans up the false allegations he made and calls off his attack dogs . Not rocket science is it?
    Any more questions?

  45. Schmedium is the shirts he wears. Somewhere between too small and way to small for him. 🙂

  46. Marty I’m curious, which step of A-J are you on? And are you sleeping well at night?

  47. I am not Mr. Rathbun, but I would like to say something.

    Wow, Tory, isn’t that the same thing you did since you left Scientology? Ripping people you used to be on the same page with?

    Chris Shelton joined a new cult, the Anti Scientology Cult and you are a member of it too, Tory. You are just not honest enough to admit it.

    I read Scientology news as much as the news of critics but the constant slimy smirk on Chris Shelton face and the lack of facts that he delivers turns me away. He is appalling. And so are many of the critics. I also stopped visiting Mike Rinder’s blog. I miss facts there too, and I am tired of him just smearing. He is in Tony Ortega’s valence.

    For the records, I am not on Scientology orgs lines. I am out longer than you are, Tory, but I never sunk to The pot calling the kettle black level.

    All critics should ask themselves the question why everyone in Scientology is bad but is a saint as soon as he or she leaves to attack Scientology.

  48. First Tony Ortega wrote an article about Cat White that described her as innocent angel, trying to blame Scientology on her death. I think the orgs failed her but they didn’t give her the drugs.

    She died with Jim Carrey’s (illegally obtained?) drugs in her stomach (that he gave to her or alternatively didn’t lock up carefully), didn’t she?

    Cat’s former husband Mark Burton sued Carrey. Now suddenly, Ortega rips Cathriona White and her marriages.

    Tony Ortega is a piece of shit.

  49. Marty wrote:
    “Paradoxically, Shelton’s principle support for putting out his mass psychiatric diagnoses comes from someone who purports to deliver Scientology services at the highest level of proficiency.”

    This statement, IMO, cuts to the heart of the issue. HUbbard had a lot of copyrights because he simply changed ideas and gave them his “spin”. It is thus possibe to respect his copyright or trash it depending on viewpoint.
    I am long, long past placing anything but a minor long term value on any of his teachings. However, I support the originality of his ideas. I enjoyed watching many of Chris Shelton’s earlier videos. He lost my support with the current one reported on this blog. I could not even finish watching it. I must admit that I had some fun with early auditing and Mr. Shelton was too “extreme”.
    I have recently read thousand of pages of Hubbard’s sources. He copied the framework of Scientology by changing universal ideas which he simply reduced in scope to fit his “religion”. He also did not pay attention to detail because there are brilliant ideas which he missed or refused to report. However, more power to those who desire morally clean “auditing”. Use it to your advantage. In the end, IMHO, the religion is, only like a leaf floating in the pacific ocean. Psychological damage is realtive, Mr. Shelton. It can be shed in an instant by some who never really accepted Hubbard’s very, very limited teachings.
    For example, Hubbard assigned himself the role of Lucifer in building Scientology. After looking into his sources, he was, IMO, just a simple demon.
    To have reached the level of Lucifer, he would have had to emanate different qualities which he clearly did not, even if he called it “myth”.

  50. Do kettle pot ASC members sleep well at night? If yes, do they lack a conscience????????????

    Mike Rinder runs a cult on his blog. Like Tony Ortega, he censors critical comment. They are ARC propagandists.

  51. “I hereby on this open forum, accuse Tony Ortega of going rogue much to the shock and dismay of everyone close to Marty, and making it appear as a coordinated effort where he had some kind of support.”

    I do not buy that Tony Ortega did/does not have some kind of support, or that there was/is no coordination to his efforts.


  52. Personally, I’m not looking for a “no effect” phenomena to help me interpret what I am looking at.

  53. Mark Burton is a good looking guy. If Cathriona White did marry him only for immigration reasons, why choosing a good looking guy not an average looking guy or an old rich guy like some other women do? Carrey is much older but has fame and money. Did Carrey steal her away from Burton?

  54. Chris Sheldon is an idiot. He writes that book for himself.

  55. Yep. Marty’s officially off the wagon.

  56. Welcome to the post Scientology world. The body may have escaped. But the mind of a Scientologist is a bit more hidden in the subconscious regions.

    Like stealth ninja, “study teched” mental impressions come back in hidden forms as a righteous view point.

    A Scientology mind takes decades to create.

    It takes decades to reprogram a mind that once agreed in Marcabs, implant stations, whole track SP bogey men, BTs etc.

    It’s insidious. All of these players, all, deserve our pity and prayers.

    Welcome to the post Scientology community where war and infighting is a sacred task. Just like the old days.

  57. I wonder about Sheldon’s constant smirking too. Behind the smirk: Pied Piper of Hamelin.

  58. Asking for clarification is trolling? You are living behind the looking glass.

  59. A -“J”?

    Surely you mean A-Q.

  60. Don’t you know Lone Star? Every upvote in the bunker gets you a ticket for the bunker gift shop! The more tickets, the better your prize level!!

    0-100 tickets = You get a participation sticker

    101-500 tickets = You get to be in the ‘in’ crowd

    501-1000 = Your comments are automatically upvoted by everyone before they even read them

    1001-2000 = You’re considered a bunker sage and others turn to you for your wisdom

    2001-5000 = You are part of the core bunkerites who determine who is in, who is out, policing comments by others—no one can disagree with the great leader, and you are infallible

    5001-10000 = Tony will upvote one of your posts, giving you more validation in bunkerites’ eyes

    And sadly, this needs to be said, the above is sarcasm. There is no bunker gift shop. There are no tickets for upvotes.

  61. Wait, I’m using my telepathy…Nope. It doesn’t work. I’m not getting it Marisa.

    Shakes fist at the sky…”Why, oh why dear God! The internet told me I just need to PUSH it through with all of my brain power but that didn’t work at all.”

    I guess I’m just doomed because I can’t seem to elevate myself to truly understand the great mysteries of this know and don’t know that you know that you don’t knowed while you knowed it.

    (walks off slowly with head bowed down, kicking at a rock here and there on my way to nowhere in particular)

  62. Exactly, Sam.

    But as you can see from Tony Ortega’s post today on Cat White and her husband, Tony’s next career move after blogging on Scientology is celebrity gossip columnist.

    And just as David Miscavige moved existing Scientologists from purchasing auditing & training over to purchasing buildings for him, the Underground Bunkerites will all just become celebrity gossip followers.

    And they won’t even notice the switch.

    Human beings value their tribe over the truth. I use to think that an Ex-Scientologist who discovered the truth about Scientology and got out would never make that mistake again – especially after all they lost when they discovered the truth about Scientology and left it.

    But no. These people are all circling their wagons and remaining loyal to their tribe – despite the truth sitting right in front of them. They are blinding themselves with their own tribal loyalties to the point where they can’t even read english any more.

    What you said here:

    “Tony Ortega makes wild accusations about Mosey and Marty having sold out to David Miscavige/OSA and claims to have super sekrit evidence of such. Marty refutes said allegations and while the Bunkeroos are in a state of electrification squawking and upvoting themselves, Tony neatly switches gears and moves onto the next piece of salacious gossip.”

    Is exactly what is happening. Their tribal loyalties are blinding them to the simple truth. And it is happening to people – Ex-Scientologists – who should know better.

    No one should feel stupid for having joined the cult of Scientology. Tony Ortega is proving that you were not crazy, or stupid, or weak, for having gotten yourself involved in Scientology.

    You were just human.


  63. Who is living behind the looking glass? What is the looking glass?

  64. Who are these people you speak of? What isn’t rocket science?

  65. I agree with marildi, singanddanceall needs to get it together and do some more reading instead of expecting everybody here to spoon feed them what has been going on the past couple months.

  66. Oh, I get it. You’re accusing him of being an alcoholic? Isn’t that what the Church sites accused him of being? Along with Mike Rinder…as I recall.

    Well, I don’t drink, was only ever drunk once in my life and I was quite unimpressed with the whole thing.

    Do I get a different slur then? Let’s run through a partial list.

    Freezoner? Nope, have nothing to do with those people.
    Scientologist? Nope, not one of those either.
    Believes in Marcabians? Nope. That was theater.
    Believes that telepathy exists? Yep, that one is true.
    Believes I was drilling telepathy with L Ron Hubbard and Captain Bill Robertson – both deceased? Nope. Names were changed to protect the still living guilty-as-charged telepaths *and* for theater purposes as well.


  67. Oh jesus. The sad thing is that is probably true. Just do what they want and You Too Can Be Successful In Life! Win Prizes! Get Lots of Money! Have Lots of Friends!

    And not have any soul left to enjoy any of it.

  68. I’m trying to be more understanding of people. I don’t dislike Chris, although I don’t agree with everything he says either. He annoyed me at first because I felt like he was being arrogant or something. I guess we all do that occasionally.

    One thing I don’t understand is how he switched so fast. He was in the SO for years, leaves and instantaneously has the whole thing “figured out”.
    I’m not saying everybody has to be the same, but don’t most people take longer, even years to begin to step back from the experience and get a different perspective?

  69. What is speak of? And who is this rocket science person everyone keeps talking about?

  70. Gerhard Waterkamp

    Concise, precise and charmingly direct as ever.

  71. Yep!

    They it is!…

    It is amazing to me that Ex-Scientologists allow themselves to be so arrogantly disparaged like this.

    But they do. And it is happening more and more now.


  72. Gerhard Waterkamp

    Alonzo, I like the analogies Don Miguel Ruiz uses when he describes our mind as in empty shell that others write to. So our thinking in the end is controlled what others wrote into our mind or when we are adults permitted others to write into it. Being in Scientology for many years and having large sections of ones mind written by LRH it is not the mind that is damaged it is just filled with tons of pulp fiction and thought patterns of a narcissistic manic person.
    But there is work to do to “un-write” or inspect and rewrite large portions of ones mind. It is not easy. Many people struggle to free themselves from the writings in their mind and live their own life and not the life others have designed for them. They run the cycle like a programmed robot.
    So there is a real problem in having large sections of ones mind written by LRH and not being able to review and revise. So many left the CO$, not because they freed their minds from its programming, but because their suffering under the regime became more then they could bear.
    Many wrote about this in many different analogies, some more accurate than others, but that does not change the facts that there is a real problem.
    Very few are putting the work in for themselves to get out of this. There are few that allow themselves independent thought. A large number of them congregates in open or secret groups and continues to act out their programming in those places. It gives the a home, comfort and leaders that take the heavy load of thinking for themselves of their shoulders. There is apparently nothing more warm and fuzzy for some than having ones head up to the shoulders in Karen’s ass, and Karen is very appreciative for any hot air blowing up the same direction. Tearing their mouths apart to judge, comment and speculate around the deeds of others is their favorite past time.
    But what does it matter?
    In my experience the people of real value are the ones that try to go their own way and they are few. And their way is not always my way, but they earn my respect to the degree that they honestly strive to be themselves and raise above any need for applause or agreement. Those are the people that are interesting and matter.
    The minions and their royalty are more like beloved pets. If you feed them they attach themselves to you. (The difference is most pets don’t bite or snap at you when you do not behave to their expectations.)

  73. Gerhard Waterkamp

    Very funny.

  74. He is??? OMG!!!!!!!!!! Breaking news!!!!!!!!! Quick! Someone call the bunker!

  75. I’m going to try this in real life. I’ll report back with my findings. Also, I literally have no idea what you are saying.

  76. See? This is exactly what I am pointing out. Who would think it? That is why he was so clever. Nobody would think it, right?

  77. Tory, Chris is the one that made the video and is passing it around and fair gaming Marty.

    Marty addresses it and Marty is “ragging on various people”?

  78. But think about this. For YEARS Tony Ortega has been collecting intel on Scientologists.

    He must have bigger files than OSA.

    Think of all the correspondence he has had with people. All the emails he has. All the intel he has.

    Think of the fact that he has had free reign to savagely fair game stalk and bully people for years unchecked with nobody standing up to him or questioning him. Or disputing him.

    Think of all the intel he has been given.

    Do you think any of these people want to publicly dispute him while he is sitting on all of those files?

    Geeze Christ he is like OSA sitting on top of people with their P.C. Folders!

  79. It looks to me like someone may be trying to identify Tony Ortega as “the third party” using scientology tech.

    In Hubbardian-world, the “third party” needs to be going around to BOTH or MULTIPLE sides to create a conflict – not just one.

    Mike and I have never experienced Tony Ortega talking to us and bad-mouthing others behind their backs.

    But let’s go with your model here for a moment.

    If Tony is the person that made the conflict, causing people to say and do things they shouldn’t – then I would expect to see said people take back every single thing they have said, and apologize for what they have done. I believe it would need to also be done publicly.

    Is that soon to be on the menu? I certainly haven’t heard word one of any such thing towards Mike and I, for example.


  80. What makes anyone thing Chris Shelton has – in fact – left the Sea Org ? 😉

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  81. Oh boy…now there’s a rabbit hole. Once started down, god only knows who else might show up that may also fit that criteria.

    But, if there’s any truth to that I suppose it’s going to have to come out eventually.

  82. Why do I hear 1960’s Batman music when you say that…lol

  83. Until I realized the bunker was a cult, my conscience didn’t bother me. The seeds of doubts I started to get, I’d push down. Thankfully, those seeds persisted until they broke through. Then, no, I did not sleep well at night and my conscience troubled me, and still does, that I was involved in that. I strongly believe most of them aren’t aware they’re in a cult. How could they? Even after I wrote about my experience, they–with a few exceptions–attacked me, as I wrote what happened to those who disagreed and spoke out.

    One does not criticize the bunker or Ortega and not expect a backlash. Attacks, abuse, etc with only a few people stopping to think, ‘wait, we’re doing just what she wrote we do towards those who disagree’. I’m thankful a few people had had the same feelings as me, so I know I wasn’t alone in what I experienced. I know, even those that attack me, if they were to detach themselves from the bunker they might not like what they see. The majority of them are good people at heart who sincerely believe their actions are helping others. They are caught up in group think and it is all encompassing. I have as much empathy for them as I do for those in Scientology. They are both ensnared. May they some day be free.

  84. Good point. There are many in the bunker who seem to dislike Marty more than Miscavige. I never understood that, nor never will. How DARE Marty address such things?! Yeah, how dare someone stand up for themselves and their family.

    How dare a family who has been through so much, have more poured on them by a group who have become what they claim to protest against? How dare that group arbitrate who their enemies are, target them, attack, and not let go? Oh but they support Marty’s wife. Why attack her husband then? Right, they got no ‘justice’, no answers–because they aren’t entitled to them. The Rathbuns owe no one an explanation, no matter how much some think people think they do. To turn and attack shows the group think is still very strong.

  85. I am a turncoat? Really? Wow. Ok, maybe Marty was never on the same page as we who were exposing $cientology’s abuses….but he was exposing some deeper shit vs people. Same page is a stretch, I get it, Sam.

  86. Ok, fair enough…I missed that video. Thanks.

  87. “Mike and I have never experienced Tony Ortega talking to us and bad-mouthing others behind their backs”.

    Does this make something I said, untrue?

    I am not a puppet, and I have not mentioned the word third party, (by the way, that philosophy, “third party law”, has very limited meaning to me. It means if two people are stranded on a deserted island, they will never have a dispute).

    I have not done a third party investigation and I would not bother in this arena. I do not think with that math. There are hundreds of parties contributing to the dynamics out here, not just a third.

    I am also not into orchestrating a public trial and enforcing people or anyone to “declare publicly”. People out here live and operate independently and I have no powers of my own to enforce social intercourse upon them.

    I am not wielding any power.

    I am just watching and listening and viewing this situation with Ortega from different angles, and sharing my views.

    I do not think anyone else has viewed it from this angle, so this is why I am laying it on the table.

    And viewing it from this angle, for me, shifts a lot of values and dynamics, into the proper columns. It makes things add up.

  88. And I only mean to imply, it adds up for me. I do not expect a massive blow down across the planet.

    If you put 40 people in a classroom and issued the same math test to all of them, just 40 people from all different walks of life, you may get two at the end of the test that are exactly the same. But that would be hopeful thinking.

  89. Marty spotted the glue that was holding all of this madness in place several threads back.

    When he called Ortega out and asked him to please provide the “inside intel” he promised people was forthcoming. His evidence that Monique took a payout from Miscavige.

    These statements from Tony put people on “wait”. They did not know what was coming next. So they froze.

    And after he parked them in wait, he had free reign to go about reporting whatever he felt.

    Well, let’s return to that point.

    As Marty politely requested WEEKS AGO, please bring it to the table now Tony.

  90. There is no profit to be made in people just being fine and dandy when they leave the cult. Ask all the ‘professional’ ex-scientology ‘therapists’ out there (who are uncertified, unlicensed and uninsured incidentally).

  91. Why thank you kind sir 🙂

  92. Michael Fairman

    What’s rocket science?

  93. Michael Fairman

    The world is turing to shit on so many levels, which makes this tower of Babel regarding the infinitesimally tiny sphere of Scientology and its cross currents, ludicrous. With all due respect.

  94. singanddanceall

    It took me about 6 months back in 2012, I did a lot of housecleaning, as George states, as a lurker. I read every coming out story on Marty’s blog here, I read John Atack, Miller, Hawkins. I searched wide and hard on the internet asking questions to myself then searching for answers on the internet. I could not confront hard core sites in the beginning such as ESMB or WWP or OCMB, I just clicked away from those sites but then I reached a point where I wanted to read about people from the 1950’s, ’60’s and ’70’s and found their stories on ESMB and OCMB. I also started reading some of Ron’s supposed sources and compared. I couldn’t get enough info.

    My time frame of 6 months was filled with many many hours. I could not have done it without the people who told their stories or experiences or findings, so for that I am truely thankful for everybody that has spoken out. I also finally opened my eyes and took a look at people that I know who are clear and above and just realized they had not achieved the stated EP’s. I’m not saying they did not get something out of it all.

  95. No, what I said doesn’t make anything you said untrue, why would it?

    I just don’t necessarily agree with the idea that Tony Ortega did anything all by his lonesome.

  96. Let’s get a couple things straight, Mr “Scientology Exec”.
    1) “Wow, Tory, isn’t that the same thing you did since you left Scientology? Ripping people you used to be on the same page with?”
    Me exposing Bill Yaude and Gavino Idda (and a few others “in” who have completely FUCKED ME OVER, is not the same as me ripping into people who have LEFT.
    2) Your ASC (and Marty’s) is exactly what you say it is: YOUR OPINION.
    You can say “the Anti Scientology Cult and you are a member of it too, Tory. You are just not honest enough to admit it”. Really? What “Leader” do I answer to? NONE. What “Loaded language” do I use? Almost none…still working on stripping of $cio-lingo shit. Etc. No, I am not in any cult….but you’re welcome to keep trying to push that.

    3) Ok, you’re not happy with Chris. I get it. I don’t really watch his videos either, but I have gone through being slimmed nearly to death on the net and the #1 “outpoint” is: NOT ONE FUCKING PERSON EVER TALKED WITH *ME*. It was ALL back channel gossip, or flat out lies on the Net.
    Did you ever even try to talk with Chris? Spare me the “He wouldn’t listen”. You don’t know until you try. Even if you don’t want to…then just don’t watch his videos. Simple.
    4) It’s easy to SAY you’ve been out longer than I, and you’ve never….but who are you, really? What have you done? Do you have a YT site exposing shit? That’s all I do, expose the abuses of the phony CULT of $cientology. You have a problem with that? Then that tells me where you are really from, in or out.

    Marty is not my friend…I’ve never even met him in person. However, I will say I’ve probably stood up for him more than most here. Why? Because. When I meet you, I’ll tell you why. Same for him.
    Be well. Tory/Magoo

  97. Correction: Former Exec.

  98. “As Marty politely requested WEEKS AGO, please bring it to the table now Tony.”


  99. Here Here Michael Fairman! Totally agree with the world turning to shit and the ludicrous cross currents of Scientology.

    And frankly, some folks on ESMB and The Bunker could probably use a sphincterectomy.

  100. Perhaps it is merely a microcosm of the macrocosm.

  101. I started off the same viewpoint and even said it on this blog. There is some truth in it too.

    His massive intel files on people means he has back up “support” with intel, that is invisible.

  102. Perhaps Scientology is a microcosm through which we can better view and understand the macrocosm of the world. Not just with respect to the organization of Scientology but its philosophy and tech. So far, it seems that way to me.

  103. Thank you being so gracious and fair.

  104. Shelton responded to his meerkat pile today as Galactic Patrol on ESMB.

    “Hey everyone. Thanks for your support. I will not be responding to Marty’s blog as that would be an utter waste of my time, but just to let everyone know what spurred him to write it, I answered a couple of questions in my weekly Q&A show about Marty and Monique’s case against Scientology and Marty’s recent activities. As you’ll see if you watch it, I tried to do this in the most neutral and objective way I could and claimed, quite seriously, that I do not know anything secret or backchannel nor do I have a clue what his actual motives are for doing what he is doing now. There was no smirk or twinkle in my eye when I said this. I was absolutely serious. It’s the first question I take up in the video and takes up about the first 15 minutes or so in answering it completely. Just thought this might help clarify and is no effort on my part to stir the pot further. I doubt I’ll be commenting on this again. I’ve got real work to do that involves helping people and exposing Scientology and that takes up plenty of my time already. “

    Hey Chris: Marty Rathbun – the subject of your answer – says your answer was full of shit. And you don’t have any time to deal with it?

    Chris Shelton is still acting like a vitally important middle management SO executive, and he is busy helping people and exposing Scientology so he can’t be dev-Ted answering for any of the bullshit he spewed in his videos.

    He is still dramatizing the same “SO Senior” service facsimiles onto his juniors.

    Step aside now, Chris Shelton is a celebrity author, podcast host, and Karen-sponsored Bunker personality and he is way too busy helping people and exposing Scientology – like he did in this video of his – to be bothered by all this kerfuffle from the guy he was lying about.

    This is completely arrogant and irresponsible of you, Chris.

    But it is just like any SO member would handle it.


  105. The Oracle: “…that philosophy, ‘third party law’, has very limited meaning to me. It means if two people are stranded on a deserted island, they will never have a dispute”.

    The “third party law” includes the idea that a conflict won’t RESOLVE if there is a third party. Two people stranded on a deserted island might have disputes, but they won’t be unsolvable.

  106. How does OSA plug someone’s mouth? Because 10% of the planet is Scientologists? because they have enormous world wide support?

    No. They have intel. It is an invisible support.

  107. Hey Chris, that is an excellent question. I’m not Chris, however I have been asked similar questions…as once I woke up, I was GONE. For me, here are a few things you *may* not know, and if you don’t care, there for the record:
    1) I began ‘waking up’ for real while on OT 7. (Note: I’d spent years fighting the ‘church’ over taking my much needed medicine for Epilepsy, so that was always a HUGE part of my waking up, for many years..and used to reg me for ‘the next level’).

    OT 7 did not work from day one. I had MASSIVE migraine headaches, so to try to “fix” them (as no auditing was)…I began studying “Self-improvement books”. I read TONS. Each one had quite interesting, educational and often helpful for me info I used. I would go to bookstores and literally sneak into the “Self-improvement” section. I’d find books that seemed like they may help, buy them, and I began my Top Secret Library in 1990—-soon after I got onto OT 7, which I remained on for 7 years, struggling away.

    2) The more I read, the more “the trap” of $cientology seemed to break apart and I was able to see more.
    3) Being part of the volunteers for OSA, I THOUGHT (and was told by my most trusted auditor/Class 8 and friend then, Bill Yaude–who yes I shall continue to expose until he actually tells ALL of that story–we were “just helping handle the evil critics”. I’ve told this story many times. Point being…once I actually found out what they were DOING (Trying to stop free speech on the NET), that was THE deal breaker for me, re working, ‘helping” OSA. DONE. As I told him: “I did not get into Scientology to do *that*.

    4) I went on ARS—the rest is history.
    BUT…but the time I escaped out….academics have told me, “We’ve never seen someone get out of a Cult SO quickly and look so good”. Andreas was the person who pointed it out to me: “Tory, YOU helped yourself”. He was right, I did. I think unknown to me, subconsciously those self-improvement books helped strip off much of the mind control. Just a guess.

    Hope that helps explain a bit how one person *can* seem like they “just left”…but in truth, I’d been waking UP for years. 🙂 My best,

  108. True, Michael…until you get a PM from someone thanking you for helping them get out of an abusive, horrific group. That’s the only reason for me it matters, at all.

  109. Smearing and Fair Game! It’s not just for Scientologists any more.

    Seriously, Bunkeroos, if Marty is now a Scientologist again, what do you think of Monique, who was never in? Did Marty hyp-mo-tise her into converting? Or has he got her tied up in the basement?

  110. Hi Tory, I’m familiar with you since a.r.s. days. Can I point out that the first shot in this battle was NOT fired by Marty. It was fired by Tony Ortega, when he “fairgamed” Marty and Monique by suggesting that there was skullduggery behind their decision to quit their lawsuit. You may question whether Marty is correct to retaliate in the way he has – i.e. “spilling the beans” on all the rotten stuff going on behind the scenes of Sci-critic forums – but I don’t think you can argue that HE was the guy who started the war of words. I believe that if Ortega had not tried to smear him, Marty would have just closed down this blog and gone to do other things with his life.

  111. His “tipsters” and minions are so oblivious, they can’t even see he is mocking them when he defines Scientologists as a “SNITCH CULTURE”.

  112. And they don’t think about the fact that he has enough intell to write ten books now. Some about them too! And their habits and secrets.

    He is unemployed again and guess what? The monster is going to get very, very hungry. His craft is exploiting people for profit.

    I could write a list of book titles you can probably expect to see from him in the near and distant future.

    Can you think of some?

  113. Mark C. Rathbun

    Yeah – I was going to refer Michael to my only post in November 2015 “When Distraction Becomes Destructive.” Everything that I have published since is in response to an incredible chain of events that post kicked off in the paranoid minds of ASC royalty. The main reason I even bother with the housekeeping is that I hope it might show some exactly what you noted in your comment.

  114. Mark C. Rathbun

    Yeah – I was going to refer Michael to my only post in November 2015 “When Distraction Becomes Destructive.” Everything that I have published since is in response to an incredible chain of events that post kicked off in the paranoid minds of ASC royalty. The main reason I even bother with the housekeeping is that I hope it might show some people exactly what you noted in your comment. Sort of a ‘tough love’ lesson in letting go.

  115. Since drowning someone could be a solution, I get your point.

  116. When I taught college, a colleague of mine answered my question about why battles among faculty members were so bitter. He said, “Because there’s so little at stake.”

  117. I like your view Chuck. Thank you for it.

  118. How in the world is that what you took away from his story this am?? He did not rip her in any way shape or form. If anything, it made me feel for her even more. Esp hearing that she was so desperate to see her dying father she would enter a sham marriage to get back into the US. He did not pass any judgement on what her actions were at all. SMH, some of you guys here see ghosts and monsters around every corner.

  119. singanddanceall

    Hey George, as long as you are housecleaning, here’s an interesting piece of data or sources Hubbard told Heinlein back in 1949 when he was trying to get Heinlein interested in Dianetics. You can highlight and google search each book title. The first one is a follow-up from the book The Crowd by Le Bon, Alanzo will like that one. Fair game is of course the last book but I’ll let you decide.

    “”Your request for the agentes techniques recalls me that this here area is shore revolutionary, pard. They just ain’t ferget noth’in about Reconstruction. Down at the library, all the way back in the vault, are four full lengths shelves of books such as THE PSYCHOLOGY OF REVOLUTION, ERRORS MADE BY ROBESPIEPE, THE POWER OF THE RABBLE, LAWS GOVERNING LEVEE EN MASSE, HOME BOMB MANUFACTURE, ASSASSINATION AS A POLITICAL TECHNIGUE, etc. etc. for about three hundred big, authoritative volumes. And I never before seen a single one of them.”

  120. ……and I’m still waiting for the outrage over the news that David Love (Not his real name) is a creepy sex pervert criminal, and that he targeted some female exes who placed their trust in him, only to be used and abused.

    Anyone outraged over at ESMB? The Bunker? Anyone? No? Did those women he mistreated have it coming to them? Any real men in the ex Scientology world? Any real feminist women?

    I see….it’s too important to figure out whether Marty is in the RTC/SO again or not than to worry about a sex pervert/abuser who happens to be an ASC Idol.

    No exclusive from Tony O? Oh, he’s too busy pissing all over the corpse of Catorina White to be bothered with stories of David “Love”. Trying to get Harvey Levin’s attention I’m sure. Hang in there Tony. You’ll be on TMZ one day!

    (Pooks, or Patty Moher, so far is the ONLY one I know who has reached out to David Love’s female victims. So I wanted to at least give her credit).

  121. Thank you Michael for commenting on the process and not the people.

    It is possible that all of this character assassination is the echo of a life once lived.

  122. To the Oracle: You are most welcome. Thank you, too.

  123. I love Don Miguel Ruiz. I read and listen to his excellent book: ” The Four Agreements”
    I apply them to my life.

    1. Be Impeccable with your Word
    2. Don’t take anything personal
    3. Don’t Make Assumptions
    4. Always do your Best

    When I apply these to my life – Days are joyous and peaceful.

  124. More power to you, Marty.

    I reviewed that blog post of last November, “When Distraction becomes Destructive.” Pretty harrowing. Here’s the link for anyone interested.

  125. From all I’ve read over the past four years including today, I trust you Tory. Not so sure of the other leading exes.

  126. ^—– It was an OSA-esque, deniable accusation-by-innuedo in the style of so many of the recent attacks on Marty. I actually have no evidence concerning Chris Shelton’s present relationship or non-relationship with Co$, the Sea Org or OSA.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  127. Marty,
    I think you may have still been in, or not quite speaking out when in 2008 Anonymous arrived. I warned them this was Heaven for OSA…all anonymous? Oh yeah. Anons said “It will never happen, we know the Net”.
    6 months later their was a flat out program against me. I ended up with 8,000 e-mails flooding my computer, death threats on my phone. I finally made a video saying: “Whether you’re a kid in your parents basement, OR a Scientologist working for OSA, I WILL call the FBI if this doesn’t ALL stop by 4:00.
    It stopped immediately, which let me know is was OSA. (Anonymous would have just done 10X’s as much). I was ready to quit…I was so disgusted, when I watched that night a documentary about the Dixie Chicks blocked from all radio in Texas, due to one comment about Bush.
    The lead singer said, “I was ready to quit….and then I thought…wait. I’m not ready yet”…and she wrote this song:

    That song touched me and from there the rest is history. 🙂
    Just thought you might like that story.

  128. singanddanceall

    Marty, you have not allowed some of my posts to be posted.

  129. Big, F*cking, Deal. Marty has disallowed some of my posts a time or three. I have never made an announcement about it, ever.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  130. I’m aware of that, but thanks.

  131. That much is obvious.

  132. Chris’ first Internet name was, “Galatic Patrol”. He now polices minds. I guess the only way for him to up his game with a basic purpose to police, is blanket mind control.

    He does a review of this conflict with out ever putting in a phone call or email to Marty. So what is he teaching people with his “critical thinking” skills? How to wallow in injustice? Do you think he even cares about the people watching his videos? I bet this guy was put on people’s comm evs when he was in the Sea Org.

    Within three years you will see him doing videos in a dress and high heels. That’s how wobbly he is.

  133. It is every interesting that a man with more than 7000 “followers” gets 69 upvotes on a new video release?


    There couldn’t be a chance in hell Chris is false reporting stats.

  134. He (too), couldn’t be scamming the Anti Scientology Community could he?

    He did get 19 replies.

    I can get very gullible.

    But I have my limits.

  135. And $6.00 buys you ten comments.

  136. .I don’t think he is the triple threat opinion leader some folk might think.Or the next Anthony Robbins.

    Unless out of his current 7022 subscribers, 6,953 did not care for his most recent lecture. Was it really that big of a bomb?

  137. Speaking of gullible. Nobody even noticed Tony made a new brand using the word “Scientology”. He owns IndieScientologynews. It is right on his blog, but he didn’t tell them to look. He even has a logo! ISN

  138. Michael, Shelton only took a brief LOA from the SO when he helped wire the explosives in the Twin Towers, then after 9/11 he went back to his post at OSA and currently runs the CoS along with Marty and COB. (My code name by the way is “grassy knoll”)

  139. some might argue he has allowed too many 🙂

  140. @Alanzo.

    My apologies for slight derail here but I just wanted to call your attention to a typo correction regarding a date of Michelle Sterling’s activities, plus the posting to you of additional information that a friend of mine had put together a while back regarding black ops that were run on us involving Private investigators, Gwen,the head of OSA Portland etc.

    Please see this comment on the “Ruthless, Rape and Hypocrisy” post.


  141. Alanzo and Virginia are the targets here. Since posts by them were photo slooped in to make them lose street cred. So who knows how much other false information is photo shopped in here? A lot of effort for a trivial prank. Juvenile methods. Ho hum for real.

  142. Got anything more sophisticated?

  143. Lives – our lives fly by. In what feels like a heartbeat – once we start to notice.

    For example, I thought I read every one of Mark’s articles but no, I had not.

    I failed to read his one article he wrote in 2015. About Deflection and Distraction.

    While others seem to take endless pleasure in debating his motives and Monique’s motives – there are some who simply 1) don’t care 2) love them regardless 3) are awake enough to say — WHO the heck can BE inside someone’s head/heart/mind to state without a doubt — motives.

    I learn from this blog. Books I’ve never heard of. Areas of inquiry I never thought of. Recommendations that enable me to become more of who I want to be ALL THE TIME — not just on good days.

    The other blogs I learn things too. ABOUT people. ABOUT rumors. ABOUT who has died or left to rot. None of those things do anything for ME other than to fuel my own (drat) insatiable (seemingly) desire to gossip and feel BETTER than someone else or mentally correct some “fact” than is an embellishment because I WAS THERE. So, I can say — nope — not a fact 🙂

    I work at dismantling my “masks” daily. (some call it ego … goes by numerous names)

    I wonder what many others work at everyday that is “outside of their story”


  144. singanddanceall,
    Thank you very much for the list of books! This is right in line with my review of Hubbard’s sources. I will follow up on these.
    I have read all the way back to Pythagoras’ grandfather following Hubbard’s thread. After reading thousand of pages, it is quite obvious that the real issue with Hubbard was “whatever was going on in his head at the time “. He ignored most classical substantive references and never grasped the essence of what they said. He focused on small details that he could “spin into a religion”. The only document that saves Scientology as a religion is “Way to Happiness”. If this can be shown to be written by a “ghost”, the entire case for a religion falls apart. I found some obscure references in the Middle Ages which justified killing for the good of religion. This led, of course, to the hundreds of thousands who were burned during the Inquisition. Some of Hubbard’s policies simply support bigotry. Scientology is thus a “revolution” with an overcoat of pseudo religion. It might have been possible to try Hubbard for treason and I think that was considered after Snow White.

  145. What? I didn’t see anything about Alanzo and I at this outerbanks blog. Where?

    Maye you are confusing Michelle Sterling’s site with this?

  146. False stats by? No…it couldn’t be. That would be unthinkably scientologolific.

  147. I do. I just don’t talk about it. My actual story is much bigger than that which I am seemingly immersed in.

    Filled with eternities and stars, wide vistas and beauty, promise and hope, and a great love for this place we all live on, and the people who live on it.

    I also read voraciously, across many, many platforms, beliefs and genres and I love to knit.



  148. I worked as a mission staff auditor for about two years in the pre Miscavige era so I am aware of scn processes. I’d never heard of the Truth Rundown so I listened to Sheldon’s detailed and understandable description of it when Alanzo posted it on his blog. (a 19 minute video) Alanzo referred to the rundown as “a brutal Maoist brainwashing technique”.

    The truly insidious method of thought control it uses shocked me. It was a valuable public service for Sheldon to describe what that process entails and I assume is still in use.

  149. Never mind my concern over the lack of concern over David Love’s predatory inclinations toward women. It’s 2016, but humankind really hasn’t grown that much. This story is a case in point….

    A 16 year old high school girl reported a sexual assault. The school suspended her.

    …..and of course there are the millions of American liberal feminists who turned a blind eye and deaf ear to Bill Clinton’s predatory practices.

    I’m very glad I’m not a female, for all the wrong reasons.

    That’s all. Most of you can go fuck yourselves. I’m done with this goddamned critic and exes world. Yep. I feel like a need a shower every time I even glance at these fucking sites.

  150. Mike Rinder runs a blog. He posts what people are saying. I’ve noticed that since Marty started his recent series of posts the satirical one ups-manship has lessened and more people are expressing the benefits they gained without beatdown.

  151. Since when is a 3 year old Twitter account “new”?

  152. “Two people stranded on a deserted island might have disputes, but they won’t be unsolvable.”

    Well, that’s not entirely true. If they were two OT 7 scientologists that were “incomplete” on the level, or a Roman Catholic and anyone from the more radical break-away Catholic cults, then we would now have any number of body thetans/demons and angels thrown in the mix, so who the hell knows what would happen in that mess.

    I’m not being snarky Marildi, I just felt like illustrating a different way of looking at your deserted island idea.

    I actually found your reminder about that a conflict wouldn’t RESOLVE to be quite refreshing – thank you for that. And it would still hold true in the example I gave, because the bottom line of WHY the conflict won’t resolve is that at least one of the two beings *in conflict* won’t look anywhere past their nose to spite their face. That fact is always a good thing to keep in mind, definitely.


  153. Flippaa Grunyon

    Michael, censorship of civil input from would-be contributors that questions or is at odds with the individual controlling the discussion IS a big deal. Let me see if I explain why in a succinct manner.

    Marty’s blog belongs to him and he has every right to do with it as he sees fit, just as any other blog creator does. It’s his platform to say what he likes and to let those he wishes add their voice to the conversation.

    However, I’m like Sing and quite a few others that I’ve spoken to recently who’ve all had their posts here censored by Marty. I can’t speak for others, but I’ve done my very best to remain polite and refrain from ad hominem personal attacks, while explaining as carefully as I could exactly what my positions were and, where they were counter to others who’d expressed their own opinions, to engage with each of them in a mutually respectful manner.

    However, in the midst of an engaged and mutually respectful conversation with Alanzo, Marty jumped in and began deleting my responses to Alanzo and dismissed my contributions as “trolling,” which could be quite self-evidently proved false, if my response there had been allowed to see the light of day. I asked Marty to either reinstate it or just send it to Alanzo privately and allow him to come to his own conclusions concerning it. That post was deleted as well, and since then many more of my posts have faced the same fate.

    By this point in time, I’ve fully gotten the “you’re not wanted here” message. So, rather than get all butt hurt and terminally aggrieved, I’ll just pick up my marbles and leave the arena in search of a more fairly moderated forum, where respectfully stated views are allowed to find their own place of value in the minds of those who believe in free speech and informed, civil dissent.

    To my mind only those who are afraid and/or have some sort of hidden agenda operate in such a manner. After all, what self-respecting individual is going to continue to be part of “petting zoo” in which only the opinions of those who march in lock step with the proprietor are allowed. Of course, in the age of the internet, censoring others free speech is always only partially successful because folks like me will just hit “copy,” then re-tweet their censored post somewhere else…or a LOT of somewhere elses 😉

    Indeed, why even have a blog if you can’t stand to face questions and dissenting views? A person’s craven cowardice in doing so just undermines whatever credibility he might have at a more fundamental level than whatever he’s currently discussing with his “choir”.

    So, Michael, rather than verbally abuse others for not manning up and just taking it like all the rest, why not wake up to the fact that the only reason that you and the few others who post on this blog are being allowed to free range in this petting zoo is because you never question the party line. I’ve got no respect for that and neither should you!

  154. Mark C. Rathbun

    I know who you are. You are a troll. Post this on the other sites where you are spending hours a day attempting to paint me as a coward, coward.

  155. “Stereotypes Within Consensus Realities

    There is another difficulty that is always encountered in writing for consumption within the larger consensus reality. The larger the consensus reality, the more likely it is that what is traded as information packages among it will consist of over-simplified information packages, more commonly known as stereotypes.
    There is a distinct deficit in this regard. Over-simplified information might not be information at all, but merely consist of fashionable, stereotype chit-chat which makes it easy to engage in conversation.
    This leaves people thinking they have “communicated.” But over-simplified ideas and concepts are virtually value-less as information except within the over-simplified contexts in which they are used.”

  156. No. Actually you don’t.
    You think you’re entitled to Sainthood and the attacks on you are wrong and yet your opening shot on Marty is:
    “1) What happened to Lisa in those last 3 days?”
    I guess by that token you are with the ‘in’ crowd of ‘untouchables’ now but the rest of us are still fair game? Why is that? Did we pull it in or do we deserve it because we are and always will remain ‘bad’ people?
    Your ‘shut up and put up’ line is very convenient when you’re not the one under attack isn’t it?

  157. “…the bottom line of WHY the conflict won’t resolve is that at least one of the two beings *in conflict* won’t look anywhere past their nose to spite their face.”

    Well said, Virginia. Either that or they (the “leaders”) are knowingly part of the instigation of conflict – as has been pointed out by Marty and others here.

  158. That’s because we needed a break from laughing at all the hilarious responses to your posts to take a breath and get back to the subject at hand. Do stick around though. We need a bit of comic relief to ease the tension once in a while and I for one am thoroughly enjoying your posts.

  159. IMO, as with the vast majority of ASC and voiciferous “exes”, Mr Shelton has had little or no actual auditing or is simply NCG and is now making a career out of asserting his own right-ness. This why I, as an openly resigned 33 year scnt’gst and ex-DSA staff, no longer follow Rinder, Ortega, Karen D L C, Shelton etc. Their comm affects my tone level negatively and I prefer a different direction. I did follow them for a while after I quit and it served to prop me up emotionally at first. Marty seems to be one of the very few previously highly positioned ex’s who cares to take responsibility for much of anything. It’s not that I don’t understand Mike’s or Karen’s (for example) purported reasons etc; it’s a very tough haul I’m sure. But remaining utterly fixated in the past messes now will do nothing for them in the long run, regardless how attractive that fixation may be. To be honest, I’m not totally sure about Marty either but as I said, he seems to be taking the higher road and gradiently pulling away from “us vs them” – as difficult as that may be. This blog is the only one I still care to follow any more, although that certainly doesn’t include the “comments” section. Having said that, it would be awesome if the obvious trolls could be permanently off- loaded because some people actually do want, need and appreciate high toned comm and actually do have certainly on the fact that they are spiritual entities with countless past lives. And that actual LRH tech, regardless where he may have sourced it and in spite of how the cos now applies and abuses it, does have the potential to unmask one’s true spiritual nature IF, and only if one truly desires that. If this post reads like a vote of confidence for Marty, well – it is. I wish him well in his endeavors. Theta certainly IS senior to entheta.

  160. Maybe it didn’t work because you didn’t believe. Therefore, you were already “out”, but continuing with a ritual. Maybe it works if you believe it and doesn’t work if you don’t?

  161. Thanks for the info! Always happy to be corrected.

  162. Did you go to the end and see the four comments?

  163. I would like to point out that I never said the words “new twitter account”.
    If that means anything.

  164. It is not uncommon for people that own blogs, to have some guidelines. Tony Ortega heavily moderates his blog. ESMB bans people who have dissenting views. You say, “Why even have a bog..” as if you know the purpose for his blog is supposed to be open forum. People have different purposes for opening a blog. And there are not hidden taxes for having one.

    Since you are brave, why not “man up” and start your own blog? It seems your purpose would be to “face questions and dissenting views” but you are here posting under a fake name. Accusing someone who is not, of being a coward.

    Once you match Marty with being able to put your name and face on the street, and rise above some of your fear, come out of the shadows so you understand some of these burdens, your reviews might be taken a little more seriously.

  165. Virginia, I also love to knit. My problem is I love to start new projects, but often don’t finish them. Short attention span, I guess. Thank you for sharing that. Most my comments are censored here. As I have said before ( in a blocked comment), I believe most people here are probably very interesting and creative people. I just wish I better understood all the vitriol and snark being thrown at people. My hope is that someday there will be a breakout of peace.

  166. Are you serious? He did not rip her? He painted her as a criminal and a slut. He did it on request of Carrey’s lawyer! And bragged about it!

  167. Thank you Lonnie Lurker. I knew I couldn’t be the only one to notice this. What the hell??? This just flies right over people’s heads?

    Gandhi Freed a civilization when journalists were still expected to maintain some ethical standards. Can you imagine him trying to do that today with Tony Ortega stalking him?

    This is why it matters. This is why it should matter to others. If it does matter to others any longer, they are going to inherit a world where people can not be freed. Bridges can not be built.

    I do not believe for one second anyone contributing to that squalor that has become his cult, gives two fucks about human rights and abuses. Let’s keep it real. They CONTRIBUTE to human rights and abuses.

  168. But it is good to know he has had it for three years.

  169. “Indeed, why even have a blog if you can’t stand to face questions and dissenting views? A person’s craven cowardice in doing so…”

    Youjust accused half the world blogosphere as being cravenly cowards.

    Real People have this very strange idea that they don’t particularly like to hang around with people they are not interested in talking to, and often especially with people that they don’t know that are hiding behind screen names. I know, it’s a foreign concept to a troll, but it’s true.

    Real People also don’t like to be told “But you MUST let me talk…” by said individuals either.

    Real People with blogs – tend to just bring the comment axe right on down on people they have no interest in hearing from or talking to.

    You’re lucky that Mark actually isn’t “the average blogger” that way, so take your dang sock and stuff a cork in it already.


  170. Furthermore, this is the most un moderated blog on the Internet! This blog is very rarely moderated!

    Marty lets posts flow through here that are filled with hate and injustice towards HIM 24/7!

    You really had to go to the bottom of the barrel to pull this “crime” out and lay it on the table. Coward?

    You think people reading and posting here can’t do math?

  171. My apologies all for my post this morning. I really don’t want most of you to “go fuck yourselves”. I actually have a lot of respect for most of you. (I was not necessarily talking about the folks on this site anyway, but I still regret saying “most”).

    I am done with this whole scene though. I’ve gone almost the entire day without even glancing at ESMB, The Bunker, or even this site and I feel so much better. Much more peace of mind. I want to keep that going. I’ve said all I’ve got to say anyway….and then some. I’m just burnt out.

    I wish you all the best!

  172. Exactly. Love that addition.

  173. Yes, those are not shoops. I actually left comments there, as did Alanzo as well apparently.

    I had a question related to something I had been told happened regarding us in the “sekrit” outer banks facebook group, but he/she didn’t have anything about that.

  174. I have been “out” for 6 years – I made my first public post on this blog, as a matter of fact, and announced my name to the world here about a year or two later. It has been interesting seeing the morphing of the Scientology “universe” over these years. I have lost friends who are still woefully on the “inside.” It was painful; now less so. But I have made new friends.

    I think it is important that you (Mark) are calling out the “ASC” (Anti-Scientology Cult) because over these several years, actions, truths, activities, events, and happenstances have piled up, and a group of people have been digesting these things and talking amongst themselves, and then editing the subset of reality they see into a sheen of group agreement about what is “going on.” Much of it is driven by hate – hate for Hubbard, hate for having “wasted” their youth, hate for being so gullible, hate for trusting someone and then having it betrayed – who knows? But the overall conclusions of the ASC are pretty straightforward: Scientology is pure evil, L. Ron Hubbard is pure evil, and Scientology should be eradicated. And therefore, any point of view or comment or conjecture by _anyone_ that does not align with these conclusions is jumped on and disregarded – condemned, derided, mocked, etc. And facts are bent to support the conclusions.

    The problem is that that reality of Scientology is broader than the conclusions of the ASC. Neither Scientology nor Hubbard are “pure evil.” They just aren’t. Scientology may be very low for some on the cost/benefit scale, but there is still a benefit. If someone has been in the SO for 20 or 30 years, there is a reason why the person stayed, and there is good that was done even if in the event it may seem the bad outweighed the good overall in their estimation.

    Truth matters, even if it is inconvenient. We can’t tolerate lies, even if they support the overall ASC goal of eradicating Scientology (not just church, but the entire subject). And real truths that you can be sure of are those that you have actually seen. Not heard. So, for me, for instance, The Hole is not a truth, even though I know it existed. Because I trust the people who mentioned it. But I have personally not seen the hole.

    But I have seen the RPF and RPF’s RPF, in multiple places, and I know what goes on there. I have seen crazy shit in Scientology – I beautiful blond 20-something Supercargo at ASHO-F recruiting SO members from Skid Row in LA (because, no LSD), and having to put down mini-riots when these new recruits clamored for liquor and got into fights. So I base what I know on Scientology for _sure_ on what I have seen with my own eyes, and what I have done my own self. And at the end of the day that is the only way to do it, because everything else has to be taken on faith, and then when you get guys like Chris Shelton conjecturing, then you start morphing reality. I don’t have anything against Chris, except that his conclusions are wrong even though he calls himself a “critical thinker.” Yeah – arrogant, but whatever.

    And, I’ll tell you what else I saw: Church members harassing in the most egregious way Mark, Mosey, Rinder, and a few others. This is real – no need to have faith in anyone, the videos are clear. I saw the hate-sites the church has put up – again – no need to take anything on faith. I saw church members acting like complete jerks to non-Scientologists. I have had people disconnect from me for just having certain friends on Facebook. This is the reality – no need to have it filtered by the lens of ASC people – or OSA for that matter. The truth of Scientology that is available unfiltered for the world to see is plenty to condemn it.

    HOWEVER – I have also seen the incredibly positive side of Scientology. To me, there is a positive side to my involvement in Scientology. I cannot deny that. I am not just going to go along with someone else’s opinion just because that seems to be the thing to do, and just because someone shows me salacious details about Hubbard or the church. I don’t need to go into details about the benefits, but they exist, for me.

    In the final analysis, all that matters is what I perceived and experienced myself. I can augment these truths with information from others, but the information from others does not supplant _what I saw and experienced first hand_. And that is true for all of us. The never-ins will have a hard time because everything they think they know is filtered.

    I say all this because this needs to be called out – Mark, you are right. There is too much stuff being invented out of whole cloth, too much conjecture and speculation and just crap being manufactured out of very few facts. Too much “us” and “them.” And when some people claim to know “facts” that are in some vault, hidden from the world, well I call bullshit on that. And, any “facts” that guys like Ortega have – even if they are in the light of day – are still filtered though their particular lens, and are hearsay from other people. For people to get all uppity on invented or distorted conjectures is pretty crazy. And for anyone to accuse people, like Mosey or Mark, of duplicity or being a sell-out or whatever based on half-digested morsels of speculation is just cussing wrong. Don’t light the cussing torches based on BS.

    Mark P.

  175. I meant to write, If it does NOT matter to others any longer, they are going to inherit a world where people can not be freed. Bridges can not be built.

  176. No, he just retweeted something from @IndieScieNews on his twitter account @TonyOrtega94.

  177. “The most un-moderated blog on the internet”?

    LOL, that’s hilarious, This blog is highly moderated and you know it. If he let through stuff 24/7 then I’m sure scratching my head why my post yesterday hasn’t gone through. And it wasn’t even hateful. Mayabe I need to be nastier to make it through…

  178. I want to point out an enemy line that has been flowing through this theater that is a LIE.

    The LIE is that Marty went against the ASC recently after his wife dropped her law suit.


    The ASC was ALWAYS welcomed here and treated with the same respect as everyone else!

    He put the brakes on the ASC community after they FAIR GAMED HIS WIFE all over ESMB and TONY ORTEGA’s BLOG. FOR MONTHS.

    And I am hearing that he is “losing credibility with the ASC”.

    They lost credibility with HIM!

    Can ANYTHING be viewed for what the fuck it really is anymore? Or is everyone hallucinating? Can anyone do math here in this theater? Anyone?


    You can fool all of the people some of the time, Some of the people all of the time. You CAN NOT fool all of the people ALL of the time.

    When you CHOOSE to be blind and deaf and stupid, this purpose flows with you through time. 200 years from now it will fuck you up! Even if it worked for you last week.

    If you can’t think of anyone else and do the right thing by them, please think of yourself and your future.

  179. I am also disgusted with the current degrade of Ingo Swan on ESMB.

    Given all in this world to create with, this is what someone mocked up. This was their potential and promise in the world.

    Is it any wonder?

  180. But, hey Oracle. I wanted to say thank you for looking out for me like that (despite any confusion over the comments). It was really nice of you and kind of refreshing to see. 🙂

    Whoever “C” is, they made a blog to expose some of what goes on about Mark in that group of Karen and Jeff’s, who the admins are, etc., as well as some other things like Karen dissing someone for being an “LRH devotee”.

    Do you have information or proof that those posts and images “C” is displaying are, in fact, false? I would certainly like to know if that’s the case.

  181. And we wish you the best as well. This one’s for you.

  182. Add – part of why I ask is because for some reason you thought Alanzo and I commenting there would make us “lose street cred”?

  183. It is such a shame that a schism has developed between you and Tony Ortega. However, the obvious question still in the minds of anyone who has followed both your blogs over the past year or so is this: given all that you and your wife endured – and documented – at the hands of the “church” of Scientology, why on earth did you abandon your law suit?

  184. Troll sayeth: “why not wake up to the fact that the only reason that you and the few others who post on this blog are being allowed to free range in this petting zoo is because you never question the party line. ”

    Too bad you didn’t review my posting history on Marty’s blog, before you delivered that particular insult. I’ve expressed dissenting opinions in comments any number of times in response to some post or other of Marty’s and they have always gone through. Occasionally, I’ve had to resubmit a comment as it contained personal insults and unwarranted invective, but that’s about it.

    Not many timid sheeple here toeing any “party line”. Go back to the shade under your bridge before you develop terminal sunburn, troll.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  185. At that link you gave, the person just changed the beginning of their post to reflect the discussion of it here.

    quote –

    EDIT: 9/20/16): I see that this article is currently being cited as an example of “disparaging” ex-Scientologists…..

  186. Only from you and Alanzo.

  187. We agree with chuckbeatty77,

    Respectfully Submitted,
    Fred G. Haseney and JennyAtLAX

  188. Sorry. I need to remove all of this off the table. It was a wrong item and wrong indication.

    The person who posted it contacted me. Alanzo and Virginia were not set up for targets.

    Geezus could Gandhi find a straw in this hay bale? I’m tripping!

  189. Mark C. Rathbun

    The answer is in the ONLY signed statements on the subject. On file with the Texas Supreme Court and the District Court of Comal county. Both documents over Monique Rathbun’s signature.

  190. I’m entitled to Sainthood? REALLY? That’s news to me, nor would I accept it even IF someone tried to dub me that, as you just did. Uh huh. Ain’t no Saint, never have been, never will be.

    Do I feel I have a right to defend attacks on me? Yup…sure. You don’t? Right. Come on, Sam….get real here.
    I asked Marty a question I’ve been asking for years, and shall keep asking… I want to know. You don’t care? There is a key difference.

    Because you say I’m “in” with the “in” crowd of “Untouchables” that makes it true? Sorry, Sambo—not I. I am ALWAYS THE LAST one to hear about just about Anything. You knew about, were invited, were going to the Florida SP Party, before I even knew about it. I know…eventually I was invited…but just pointing out who is what.
    I’d put $$$ on it I’ve had more “Fair Game” than you. Here’s my 25 step program, thankfully Marty posted some years ago. I’ll always thank him for that!

    Post the quote where I told s/one to “Shut up or put up” please.
    After being attacked to death on the net, I started the “Don’t like me,
    get in line…take a #”. My way of living *through* the endless lies on ARS you never experienced, I don’t think. (If so, correct me, plz).

    We all have experienced attack. I’ve certainly had more than my share.
    As a friend often says: “We move on”. 🙂

  191. We hear you, Brian!

    Fred G. Haseney & JennyAtLAX
    Ex-scientologist, 1977-2014

  192. Well written, Miss Tia!

    Fred G. Haseney & JennyAtLAX

  193. Well, you are the only two people I have heard say that about her JC, she is neither a criminal nor a slut and it was not implied or even said, by anybody…except you two!!! WTF? Am I in an insane asylum?

  194. singanddanceall

    cool George. I would be very interested in your findings. The first book Revolution (and The Crowd) and the last book or idea I can understand. The books in between are a little harder for my mind to understand why Hubbard mentioned them. The all caps in the quote above to Heinlein is by Hubbard in the original letter and not by me.

    There is another book worth reading which is called “English Rhetoric” by Dean Wilbur college textbook with course exercises at the end of the book who Hubbard was a student of at GWU. Everybody mentions in various sites that he flunked “nuclear physics” and show as proof the report card. However, in the same report card shows Hubbard getting a C and B in English Rhetoric by Dean Wilbur, IIRC w/o looking up. One day on the South African blog (reference site being the actual COS website) there was a post of Hubbard’s letter to Dean Wilbur basically saying Hubbard would use Dean Wilbur’s book on rhetoric to write a book in the future of significance. Anyways, that’s how I connected some dots as to source or what influenced Hubbard in his education or line of thinking with at least some actual data in Hubbard’s own words, and cross reference you might say.

  195. I had been waking up for years, too, torychristman44.

    My dance with scientology began the very first day a Body Router walked me to the Mission of Salt Lake City. The Registrar wanted $50 for the Communications Course. I lied and told him I had the money at home and would bring it n the next day (I had just arrived in that city with limited funds and no job). The Reg drove me home that night to get the money.

    In two months, the FBI would raid church offices in Los Angeles and Washington, D.C., but I had already been so indoctrinated that I didn’t ask serious questions about what would become known as “Operation Snow White.”

    When I joined the Sea Org a few months later, it didn’t phase me to learn Ron’s Sea Org fleet no longer sailed the high seas.

    I attended the event at the Hollywood Palladium which announced that L. Ron Hubbard had died. Something about that whole event made me realize that scientology would never be the same. That night, I decided to never attend another scientology event. And I kept my word. (I actually started going to such events this year… as a protester).

    I worked for plenty of scientology organizations and Front groups, mostly as a public person. When I worked in Treasury at Sterling Management Systems, I bent over backward, wearing just about every hat, even Flag Banking Officer (“FBO”) Admin. It didn’t help to find out later that a co-worker earned, on the average, 3.1 times what I made. With SMS being scientology’s #1 Field Staff Member (“FSM”) on the planet, I wondered, “Why am I being underpaid?”

    When I worked for the Office of Special Affairs to get the case ready for the Larry Wollersheim case, I asked a staff member about it. She told me to ignore the noise and just keep on working. So I did.

    In 2008, the little mail box at my apartment would get jammed-packed with literature from just about every scientology org you could imagine. I even got emails from orgs I knew I’d never, ever visit. Finally, I told the org I had moved, that I had been staying with friends and had no mailing address. Soon, I could find my normal mail (bills, letters) in the mailbox.

    In 2011 or thereabouts, Los Angeles Organization gave me 5-hours of review auditing. I had been in the “Non Interference Zone” since the mid-1980’s. LA Org actually gave me auditing; I didn’t pay for it (someone “found” five hours in my Pre-Clear, or “PC” folders). I loved the auditing but when I went to the Examiner after session, I watched the Examiner watch the E-meter looking for… my floating needle (“F/N”). That became my first and last experience because the new definition of an F/N can hurt a spirit, not help or heal.

    I got into scientology in 1977 and walked away in 2014. Finally, everything I couldn’t think with or understand through years started to make sense and soon, I gave birth to JennyAtLAX, a platform for me to fight back against that so-called “church.”

  196. I forgot to sign my comment:

    Fred G. Haseney & JennyAtLAX

  197. Let’s have a meeting!

    Hello – My name is Richard and I’m an ex-Scientologist


  198. “Cat White’s marriage to man suing Jim Carrey was a sham to beat immigration, and was not her first fake wedding, say friends.” Defrauding the United States is a criminal act. Prison and up to 25,000 in fines. He ran this all over media outlet known to man. Based on guess what? “say friends”.

  199. “and was not her first fake wedding, ” Equals multiple offender.Possibly a three strike offender qualifying for life in prison. “say friends”. He runs the headlines as if a conviction has just been released and this is N.Y.Times. front page news.

  200. Multiple fake weddings = serial wife. Black Widow.

    Urban Dictionary Black Widow 2. A disingenuous woman who exploits her position in a relationship to the detriment of her partner.

    Black Widow
    A female who feeds off of the mental, physical and material means of a male and then leaves him for dead.

    Says who? “Friends”.

    Really? What “friend”? Her former husband should file a law suit on Oretga. And I am pretty certain that is in the works as I write this.

  201. Here is yet another evidence of ASC double-standards: affidavits (whether actually entered into the court records or not) and other court filings are considered unquestionable evidence of truth when unfavorable to Ron Hubbard or Co$. Yet, Monique’s statement filed with the court has been summarily rejected by them? Right.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  202. Excellent post.

  203. Great post.

  204. I think you’re right. Looks like Mike responds well to relatively light ethics.

  205. Thank you Idle Morge, I totally agree regarding the Four Agreements.

    Not taking other people’s issues personally is a sign of true personal power.
    To remain calm while others loose themselves is a spiritual power the demonstrates a mature and intelligent mind.

  206. He blew her reputation to blow a fair jury. This scares off the person filing the law suit. He is hired body guard, a thug. The same thing he did to Monique. He is hired hatchet man and this is forte. He even brags about it:


  208. It may actually be worse than that, Lone Star…

    I just did some checking on the dates around a campaign a small group of us started on SPs R Us – consisting of me blasting at first (as fast as it was taken down), the site that first hosted the infamous David Love transcripts (where he was caught threatening Marisa Sigmond with violence and jail time), and then someone put it that 911 call directly on YouTube, which I used in place of the website (link to follow – which website according to Marisa, was not done by the church). This campaign started the first week of April (at least was in progress by the 5th/6th of April).

    We know Karen knew about this early on, because she was the first to come on and blast her “theta press” statements about how great was the work being carried out by David Love. When Marisa would occasionally speak up, Karen countered. When I posted links, she threw positive comments about David Love on the thread. But I played on everyone’s suspicions that I was “still OSA” (I am an ex-DSA), and through the use of bantering in-between TR3ing (repeatedly pointing out) the issue, kept threads on this going half the night long, before they would be pulled, night-after-night for a while (shame on SPs R Us admins for defending such an abuser). I had some help and back-up, as reported recently on a previous blog here, but basically it was my “OSA PR/intel tactics” against Karen’s, at that time (we both knew that – avoided talking about it between us, and there was nary an ARCx between us about it, though I had no idea at the time, about the following videos and articles).

    Karen apparently viewed my ploy as a “Black PR campaign” (it was) and evidently went off in search of “other channels for PR” – exactly per standard PR tech.

    (This campaign did effectively keep David Love absolutely backed in a corner on Facebook for these several weeks, and Marisa even got in a few words of clarification in front of the skeptics before she was booted. David Love then chickened out on traveling down to Flagdown 2014, so it was just in time for Pete, the SPs R Us co-creator – not always active “admin” there – to invite Marisa herself, to speak at Flagdown 2014, instead of DL.)

    But then right in the middle of all this… (speaking of convenient timing, pressure points, financing, etc.) we get this article from Tony Ortega on April 11, 2014…

    …which gave David Love valuable, critical PR limelight – right while David Love’s 911 call was just starting to get around.

    (I missed this article, at the time. I’d toyed with the idea of contacting Tony about the 911 call, but figured he was probably too busy, and wouldn’t cover such an event exposing someone he had championed back in 2012 on his site, and so I went to Mark Bunker with it, instead, who was appropriately skeptical – he does not know me – but friendly and at least cordial.)

    It is unlikely that Tony Ortega (a frequent visitor and poster at SPs R Us) did not know about Marisa’s predicament and the allegations of abuse, with links to a recorded 911 call transcript and audio which constituted a documented case of real abuse of women (not to mention the trail documenting more of this on that same following site, that goes way back).

    (scrubbed from my google and yahoo search engines, by the way… google will reportedly do this for a price)
    (many more articles in blog archives there)

  209. Oh! Do you know what a “ringer” is? A plant!!!!

    Any type of contestant in a game who is entered in order to cheat. For example, a professional bowler who plays in an amateur bowling match.

    Yes, he worked as a hatchet man and a plant!!

    Anyway, take a screenshot, it is VINTAGE Gawker!

  210. The 911 audio of David Love, who did not realize he hadn’t hung up the phone after he called 911 and the recorder continued to roll –

  211. “Someone”, managed to have this letter which was exposed on the Gawker link above, under, “comments”, removed from the comments section. In fact, they managed to have the entire section of comments removed, with comments about Tony Ortega! In the last few weeks! Since I dug it up and made it public.

    This is Tony Bragging about being a hatchet man:

    This is from a 2005 letter he wrote to the Association of Alternative Newsweeklies:

    To the editor:

    I am Bruce Rodgers’ worst nightmare. I was the ringer New Times sent to Kansas City to help Editor CJ Janovy shake off the last vestiges of the Pitch’s soporific tenure under Bruce’s pre-New Times editorship.

    Yes, I’m a cardholding member of the Evil Empire, a New Times hack who’s been at it for ten years, the boogeyman every Birkenstock-wearing hippie burnout still clinging to a paycheck at alt-weeklies sees in his sleep, coming to take his job and turn his paper into a soulless corporate moneymaker.

    Have keyboard, will travel. My corporate cookie-cutting overmasters have parachuted me into four of their newspapers in five different stints (Phoenix, Los Angeles, Phoenix, Kansas City, and now Fort Lauderdale) like the merciless mercenary that I am. . . .

  212. Marty, at what point will you finish up your “house keeping”? Once finished, have you planned the next step of your journey? Maybe sharing part of your future plan (if you are moving on), could assist others who are trying to find life beyond the who pro and anti-Scientology world. As stated earlier, I hope all here can find their own person peace as they wrestle with this difficult time in life.

  213. He is a racist and sexist. An ethnic cleansing master. His flock follow him under the same frenzied state as Donald Trump’s people follow him.

  214. If the letter had not been posted on this blog, it would have been buried.

  215. Note further that in Tony Ortega’s article, the “deadline to pay” is altered (stretched to April 4th) to make the article seem current, when the actual date had expired two weeks earlier (March 21, 2014) and the release of this “stunning victory” had long passed (January 16).

    DOX (embedded in Tony’s article)

    Ah, but perhaps prospects for salacious Scio stories were just lean that week…

  216. Well forget about the potential law suit. Nobody wants to sue him because he doesn’t have a pot to piss in. He is living off donations and people who rent space on his blog. Nothing in on the book. He is hoping to make some cash on the release of his audio book, but the attorney won’t gamble on that.

  217. I know what you mean, I feel the same way right now. Thanks for the clarification.

  218. “…she is neither a criminal nor a slut and it was not implied or even said, by anybody…

    You missed the feedback on Tony’s article from his flock after the announcement? If it was not said or implied, how to you explain this feedback:

    Jenny Griffith • a day ago
    Any individual who knowingly enters into a marriage for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or fined not more than $250,000, or both.

    J. Swift • a day ago
    Why did no Scientologist Ethics Officer tell Cat White that it was illegal to remain in the country and order her to go back home? Why did the Church aid and abet Cat in breaking the law?

    Noesis -> J. Swift • a day ago
    She never had a first (real) husband?

    Observer • a day ago
    She’d have been far better off if she’d never heard of Scientology. I have no doubt she’d have had a real marriage in Ireland. All she got here were a fake marriage and a fake “religion” and a lot of fake “friends.”

    HillieOnTheBeach Jenny Griffith • a day ago
    It’d be funny though if Burton’s lawsuit got him some unintended attention from the INS.

    Chee Chalker • a day ago
    While I feel sorry for Cathriona, I understand why Jim Carrey, living in the state of California, might be hesitant to marry someone 20 years younger who was in an immigration quandary.

    Eliza Doolittle Chee Chalker • a day ago
    That’s a horrible position for Jim to be put in. Of course he wouldn’t want to marry someone that soon and for that reason.

    Intergalactic Walrus • a day ago
    Did anyone ever advise Cat to consult an immigration attorney? In six years, she should have been able to get this ironed out. Legally.

    NOLAGirl (Stephanie) Intergalactic Walrus • a day ago
    Scientology give sound legal advice to anyone but David Miscavige? Surely you jest. 😀

    Sadly her auditor or ethics officer probably knew of her status and rather than pointing her in the legal direction, pointed her….nowhere apparently.

    sizzle8 Intergalactic Walrus • a day ago
    If she was on lines, guaranteed that she saw the Ethics Officer about this.
    She probably was directed to a Scientology attorney.

    sizzle8 • a day ago
    If the lawsuit proceeds, it would be interesting to see some of the people that were in the wedding photo (previous post) deposed.


    I haven’t even clicked “load more comments” yet! All of this, because,….because………., “EXCLUSIVE: Cat White’s marriage to man suing Jim Carrey was a sham to beat immigration, and was not her first fake wedding, SAY FRIENDS”

    And for the record, how gullible can people be? You know, this fucking gullable:

    Artoo45 • a day ago
    Here come the lawyers for some information. It’s almost like Tony’s the only one doing, you know, actual journalism on this story.

    quaclara • a day ago
    So glad Jim Carrey’s attorney is reading Tony’s remarkable reporting. And a special thanks to Cat’s friends who call Tony with what they know. She deserves to be remembered.

    Frodis73 | September 21, 2016 at 6:56 pm | Reply
    Well, you are the only two people I have heard say that about her JC, she is neither a criminal nor a slut and it was not implied or even said, by anybody…except you two!!

  219. miscavigeisscaredofsam

    So not interested in anything you or your new tribe have to say. in fact I think I’ve said all I want to on the subject. If there are any grown-ups left outside of this blog you can hook up with me on facebook. Otherwise please just fuck off and get on with it.

  220. This headline: “EXCLUSIVE: Cat White’s marriage to man suing Jim Carrey was a sham to beat immigration, and was not her first fake wedding, SAY FRIENDS” Was run the following day, after the comments above! The one before ran: “Marty Singer: Cat White asked Jim Carrey to marry her and he turned her down”

    The only person, to testify to anything slanderous about this woman, is Jim Carrey’s lawyer. The one that gave Tony “The exclusive”.

    Tony lays it out there and they are just waiting to rip someone the shreds. It is like throwing raw meat to the sharks.

    First he throws her legs over the side of the boat, and they nibble on her toes. The next day he tosses her body in and they chew her up.

    These are people, excuse me, I am laughing, complaining about human rights abuses and Scientologists.

    Their group is not promoting human decency, they wallow in human abuse daily as a ritual.

    And it is not even about Scientology. It is about sadism. It’s a cyber cult sadist group.

    He does keep them corralled in a corner, fixated on their monitors, attitudes, case and propensity towards abuse and denigration., by constant re stimulation. And off the streets.

    Talking to them or trying reach or teach them or turn them, goes nowhere. Because you miss the right item all the time. You keep bringing up “Scientology” until you are blue in the face, or, human decency, or justice or truth. You get no T.A. and no change.

    The item is sadism. But they won’t own it. And unless you can become sadistic, maybe you aren’t even real to them.

    But to think this has something to so with Scientology, it does not. Sending OSA out to attack these people because “they are anti scientology”, I mean, those people do not get it right either. OSA staff just turn sadistic too. Laughter! It’s like sending someone out to handle a drug addict that ends ups on dope. If fact most of the ringleaders in the asc community are former osa staff! Laughter!

    It’s just sadism. I guess you could reach one by getting them into masochism, with some slapping about. .But you would have to get sadistic to do it, and most people won’t go anywhere near that. Laughter! It’s like you are doing them a sick favor to beat them up. Then you are somehow sucked into the perversion. Why attack something if you have the same potential to be it?

    So they run unhandled through society like lepers. People don’t want to go near it to address it. They don’t even want to duplicate it.

    I know several people from N.O.I. that have looked at ESMB or Tony Ortega’s blog, and they always come back with the same repelled shock. But I think it is therapeutic for them. Laughter! They always get accused of violence or being prone to violence. They get blown away looking at these white people talk to one another or about one another.

    And to be honest, the ones from N.O.I. and Chen’s tribe that have looked at my comedy blog, have advised me to take it down. They say it is unhealthy or unholy, for me to mock it. And I ‘m beginning to see their point. I have to view the black magic, and duplicate it. To really translate it. And it is toxic on some level.

  221. Yea, that’s true. I think it’s especially noticeable in real-life DIY videos or picture form where it is often much faster to *see* the thing being done rather than straight reading about it. Knitting is a good example. If I need to learn immediately, for a pattern, a particular technique I always look for either a simple pictorial (which I actually prefer) or a youtube video if the pictorial isn’t graphic enough. I don’t need to hear all the yacking, in that case, I just need to see it done.

    I guess Chris thinks of himself as trying to do some sort of DIY video for thought processes – I think I’d rather have the pictorial form and skip all the yakking.


  222. Every time I scroll down looking over the comments, when I get to this comment by you, and as viewed in relation to sock answers galore, I always look at your comment as if you’re talking to the sock. Cracks me up every time because your response about Chris always seems to “look” perfect for singanddanceall as well – lol.

  223. @Samantha. It it’s not too forward of me, would you mind leaving me a comment at our blog with whatever email address I can then email you at? I would like to ask you about something (not scientology related) but I don’t feel it’s appropriate to do it here. You can just pick any post or page at the blog and create a comment at the bottom and I’ll see it but no one else will.

  224. ‘The person’ is Spike Robinson (also an alias). She has been the mouthpiece for Jon Atack on the internet for a while now. A tough job. She promotes his agenda and if ex Scientologists don’t like being labelled as permanently insane she happily takes the bullets for him.

  225. So standing up to bullies and liars now becomes ‘infighting’? Sorry. Not buying. It’s so easy to preach from the pulpit when you’ve just arrived and are ignorant of the ‘history’ you are being presented with. We didn’t just all suddenly fall out because we’re dumb ex Scientologists who don’t know any better: I have a few common interests with SOME ex Scientologists but there are far more who have attempted to literally force others to support them for the ’cause’ who I would never associate with whether they were ex Scientologists or not. Case in point Jon Atack who has consistently tried to force me to get with his program and who was told in no uncertain terms to stay the hell away from me and my family from day one. Is that ‘falling out’ and ‘infighting’? No. It’s my right to choose who my friends are and keep toxic people out of my life from the outset. Nothing to do with Scientology. Not a damned thing.

  226. Marty. I’m gonna sign out for now because I can’t stomach the ASC any longer. I’ve lost too much and been torn apart and broken down even more than I was in the cult to start with. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for caring enough to try to clear the air with anyone who cares to listen but I honestly think this is a lost cause so I’m done trying. If we can ever help you in ANY way please don’t hesitate to contact us.
    Hugs to you and your family ❤ xxx

  227. Yea, I kinda got that. I found it rather hard to read because it seemed like there was far too much effort to appear, I don’t know, flippant? I can’t think of the right word.

    I also didn’t like that I can’t really tell who the hell I’m even reading.

  228. singanddanceall,
    Thanks for the input. I started with Robespiere since that one hit me first. What really strikes me is that Robespiere rejected the Catholic Church but started his own religion which was centered on a supreme diety. Robespierre was responsible for the reign of terror where hundreds of thousands were killed on the great killing machine. I can see Hubbard reading about his life with keen interest. The problem with Scientology is the same problem of killing in the Middle Ages. Obscure references justified the Inquisition. An obscure reference from Hubbard about killing is therefore very dangerous. Thus Scientology has the potential for revolution. My research is vast and I have no predictable ending. But I am having so much fun it is worth the effort. From about 1890 until about 1955, the Occult was killed by science. IMO, Hubbard toned down some of the ideas of the occult just enough to appeal to the 1970’s generation. Hubbard latched onto the Viet Nam War protest movement. In reality, Scientology was intended to be a revolution.

  229. Whoa. I hit post comment…and am lost down the chain suddenly. Go Oracle! lol

    Anyway, just to be clear, mine at 8:03 is @Frodis.

  230. Jack Parsons.

  231. Thank you for filling us in on all this Scott, and for helping Marisa. Thank goodness there are still people like you left in the world.


  232. Nah. But you might need to be righter.

  233. I think that may partially be my fault. I did do the dastardly deed here of bringing up the “T” word, and since Michelle Sterling took it upon herself to try and make a public spectacle out of me about it, I wonder if this Ingo Swann bullpuckey isn’t just someones “I’m so brilliantly clever” idea of a covert method of continuing to trash me.

    But even if I’m right about that, apparently that is going over the intended audience’s head, maybe they need a better R-factor.

    “This is supposed to be a satire of Virginia and Mike’s telepathic auditing sessions with Dead El-Ron. We even have the sub-level satire of “changing the names” aspect too. Thank you all for your continued support in fair-gaming telepaths as demonic spawns of the devil -sic- LOONS.”



  234. Did Tony Ortega present these documents at the Bunker?

  235. I don’t recall seeing such documents, is why I ask. But I didn’t download everything he was frantically waving around either.

  236. Well, bummer. I know what I should say, your choice and all, what’s best for you but dang it. I’m going to miss your laser insights and wit. Was kind of a bright spot in my day. But I understand, I’ve made the same decision a couple of times so far here myself.

    Here’s to peace and happiness for you and your family Sam.


  237. Thank you .
    Big hello from LRHs Bulgravia.

  238. I think some people who have been following the conversation here, myself included, see that going overboard with sarcasm and satire is not beneficial to themselves/myself. (morphogenic resonance?)

    Just one example would be one person comes up with sciobot, another follows with scilon and a third with ronbot. It is kind of funny, but by carrying it too far some people could get entrenched in negative thinking. I was just as much a believer in scn knows everything about everything when I was active as any current scn’ist.

    Maybe six months ago I was singing with the choir on Mike’s blog to some extent, but it didn’t feel right. I stopped doing that and only engaged in commenting when a philosophical or logical type conversation came up. Unfortunately a daily blog goes by so fast there is little time for back and forth discussion.

    I haven’t been reading Mike’s blog for about three months (too busy checking out the stuff you and others keep presenting, Miraldi – lol)
    I looked at the last two or three topics on Mike’s blog and there were many meaningful comments which I enjoyed. I’d actually like to see Mike go to a one or two topic a week format along with Regraded Being if RB wishes. I think that might turn the corner to a greater degree of thoughtful discussion.

  239. For what it’s worth Samantha, exposing people for deception and making known their intention is fine by me.

    It’s the ugliness and enjoyment in this shark feeding frenzy of character assassination on other human beings that I make comment on.

    And attacking the character of others with meaness and hate is what my issue is.

    It becomes, in my opinion, a source of group intimacy to share in the character assassination of others. That is my view, of reading some on these blogs. And my view has nothing to do of who is right or wrong.

    It’s the energy.

    I have tried to keep my judgements on Scientology towards the doctrines that people have agreed to, and not be hateful towards people.

    Since these forums are a place for expression of one’s views, you can consider my view expressed.

    I hope you can understand the spirit in which my thoughts are intended.

    “When debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser”

  240. And I see our differences one of world view and philosophy.

    I could easily start judging you for not seeing how “superior” my way is. I could find all manner of words and get others to jump in and judge.

    But in truth, in my opinion, I see our differences as one of what philosophy we follow.

    You see, being out for so many years, and following the philosophy that our antagonists have something to offer us in terms of self transformation, I try to respect those that I perceive are my antagonists.

    In Scientology there is no such philosophy. It’s rather attack and get even. Bring down the apostate. Third party the bastards and sully their reputations publically.

    So therein lies the difference. And I will not judge you for it. I will see it in the light of understanding that some people on these blogs do not know the virtue of “love thine enemies” Jesus or “you enemy is your greatest teacher” Buddha.

    This understanding allows me to respect the person but judge the learned behavior.

    This is a powerful lesson. Love requires intense wisdom and personal power to manifest under fire.

    It is not for the faint of heart. But it is an essential practice for those who have dedicated their lives to spiritual liberation.

  241. You paint anything Tony say black. It’s how you view him, there can’t be any other point of view in your mind.

  242. Pingback: The Anti-Scientology Cult vs. Truth | Grasshopper's Blog

  243. Theta Maximizer

    We all get pissy from time to time, LS, so no irreparable damage has been inflicted. I can’t help wondering, though, if your decision to steer clear of this blog and all the other $cn-related blogs is not exactly the desired goal of He Who Shall Not Be Named?

    In other words, is it not overly “tin foil hat” conspiratorial to wonder if the malign underlying purpose at work in some of these $cn-related blog and message board sites is to cause more of us to feel exactly as you are now?

    Could it be that folks who know very well how to sow enmity, exacerbate division and make nastiness go viral are sitting back chortling to themselves as they watch the post-$cn community fall on each other in conflict while the real enemy looks on in glee?

    I’d say that it’s more than possible; I think it’s highly probable. So, why not deprive them of that evil-purposed victory and stick around, but refuse to be divided and take sides against anyone except for the true evil that exists in $cn?

  244. P.S. I tossed it out above so I better make some explanation. Morphic Resonance (morph, from Greek, morphe = shape) A theory by Rupert Sheldrake that information can be transferred from a first group to other members of the total group without direct contact or knowledge of the first group – something like that.

  245. This just in: In celebration of the new reel-to-reel version of his book, cult leader Tony Ortega releases a new picture of himself!

  246. David
    I’m interested to understand the justification for your claim.

  247. My goodness do I agree

  248. Who is “them?” It’s really easy to make a case as long as one stays away from specifics.

    So an unnamed party cherry picks which affidavits they consider credible. That same party “rejects” a statement filed with the court. And somehow that reflects on a whole mythical community where everyone shares in this view point?


  249. This argument makes all the sense in the world–as long as one is willing to paint with broad enough a brush to concede the existence of an ASC. As soon as one calls for a more nuance view and a bit less stereotyping, your argument is a goner.

  250. Troll also sayeth, “Michael, censorship of civil input from would-be contributors that questions or is at odds with the individual controlling the discussion IS a big deal. ”

    How would you know what the contents of disapproved posts were – unless it was *you* using another sockpuppet identity ?

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  251. Right. And I painted my back yard with dog poop. So twice a week I paint my dog pack to the side of the house. And I paint the back yard clean again. It all exists because of me and how I paint it. I painted you on this forum too. I hope you persist as a Van Gogh would. I paint you as curious. I paint you with deserving respect in that I turn to receive and honor the paint strokes, you lay down for me.

    You paint me in a certain color enemy. As outside the line insanity. The undeserving beggar on the street, who dares to reach and touch your feet. After a swift kick. I think it is a masterpiece.

  252. Anonymous created the meme “OSA OSA OSA” because of Tory repeating her mantra at nausea that everything and anything that happened to her, or anyone else, was caused by OSA. She became, and still is, a joke. Tory’s lies have become so ridiculous that all you need to do is dismiss them with a laugh. She can’t back up any of the claims she makes. One day she tells you a story and the next day she forgets the lie she told you the day before.

    So, when you hear Tory playing the victim role be ware that she is just making it up. Tory’s actions against anyone who doesn’t share her stupidity is free speech, but if anyone dares to counter her BS she calls it fair game.

    She is a clown as far as I am concerned and she should not be taken seriously.

  253. Thanks Virginia

    I’d already taken this up elsewhere, but Lonestar’s comment stimulated a little further research,. Although these conclusions of mine belong on the earlier thread, here they are:

    1) confirms that Tony and Karen have more important things on the agenda than integrity of reporting – or at least are reacting in such a way as to be less effective, not more, vs. the Miscavige regime

    2) the hypothesis emerged that this reporting was being bought and paid-for, and here is one place to look at for a probable example of that

  254. Right on! If the Anti Scientology Community does not exist, I could not have facts attitudes or opinions about it ! There would be no value there to add in. I think there are a lot of people that think it exists. It is probably a hallucination. Maybe a dream. Thank you!

  255. Got it, thanks for the more condensed summation. I think that having this together with the more in-depth history makes for some nice clarity. 🙂


  256. “When dialog is lost, slander is the tool of the looser.”

    Thank you for demonstrating this fine wise quip. Demonstration is so important! Ain’t it? My fine X-Ronologists.

    These people are such poopoo heads, idiot faces and dumb smucks.

    They know nothing and are only capable of doing harm.. There for its time for justified personal attacks on those we once called brother and sister.

    Please, could someone just deny what I just said and attack me personally?

    Us vs Them, thank you for the demonstration. How novel.

  257. “Anonymous created the meme “OSA OSA OSA” because of Tory repeating her mantra at nausea that everything and anything that happened to her, or anyone else, was caused by OSA.”

    AJ, that was uncalled for, not to mention WAY too Church of Scientology Dead Agenting for my taste.

    Here is a recent statement made about my husband and I –

    “Everyone is an agent! Anything negative that happens in your lives must be the work of agents. The random stranger at the store is an agent, or the angry man who was annoyed when you sat in a parking spot with your car on is an agent.”

    See the similarity?

    We don’t think that at all, and I highly doubt Tory does either, but someone sure wants that to be the “line” out there.

    I don’t particularly have any great fondness for Tory, but that doesn’t mean I think it’s ok to treat her like you seem SO proud of Anonymous doing.

    Which brings me to my final point. You said “Anonymous” created…oh really? That’s not even possible. What is possible is this attitude and meme had to start with ONE person somewhere. ONE. Who was it? I dunno. You tell me.

    The fact that you just lapped it up apparently doesn’t speak too highly of your individuality.

  258. I think you’re on to something, with regard to morphic resonance. Current theory regarding “morphic fields” could even explain why former scientologists tend to congregate on forums (and elsewhere)) – whether it’s to agree or disagree on any given aspect of scientology.

    Social morphic fields are energetic phenomena created by groups, and such fields seem to give a more basic – and “tangible” – reason for all the interaction than any of the various factions of ex-es claim (sincerely or otherwise) their reasons to be. These fields are also theorized as being the basis of telepathy.

    In the 7-minute video below, Rupert Sheldrake describes how “members of bonded groups” are still connected by morphic fields.

  259. singanddanceall

    oh, I get it. Hubbard of course could not kill dissidents or critics, but he could psychologically terrorize them.

    I would agree Scientology was intended to be a revolution. But we know Hubbard said something like “we seek no revolution but higher evolution for man” or something like that, which is Hubbard’s rhetoric. The Le Bon Revolution book talks about revolution and how it can be interpreted as well as evolution over a long period of time to change man’s view, or something like that from memory w/o quoting.

    I never got into history/philosophy/religion in my younger years and now find it fascinating after leaving scientology as it pertains to scientology. I am glad to be able to converse with you.

  260. “Please, could someone just deny what I just said and attack me personally? ”

    OK – I’ll give it a shot.

    You are a bleeping bleep who bleeps around all the bleep time and for no bleeping reason. And I don’t bleep the bleep over bleeping any of it!

    Well, I can’t say that was very enjoyable. I’m feeling a bit like I’ve turned into Artoo-Detoo after all that bleeping around.

  261. Thank you Mcclaughry! That felt good.
    Try this on for size:

    You are wrong! And you are really wrong! The wrongness that you are is more wrong than wrong ever was!

    Now that’s wrong.

    By the way, have I told you how right I am?

    Don’t get me started.

    Ah, how low people get when I chop off their head.

    And see how big I get? Wow! I’m big! And you are so small!

    Now I feel good. I feel much better than you!

    That’s because I’m big.

  262. This jumped out from the page at me for some reason today Scott –

    “(scrubbed from my google and yahoo search engines, by the way… google will reportedly do this for a price)”

    So, wow. That’s pretty amazing, I had no idea. Do you have any further details on this?


  263. You might try a smaller project first, just so you can feel like you have accomplished something. Knitting a pair of socks (my personal fave at the moment) is much shorter time-wise than most knitting projects, and SO rewarding especially if you are using some really beautiful and superior quality yarn. It will feel so much more like you’re creating art, if you do. I highly recommend it, but it’s true, I *am* a bit biased towards socks.


  264. I appreciate what you’re looking at, I do, but when you brought it all down to this – “the true evil that exists in $cn?” – that pretty much killed everything you said previously.

    I’ll explain.

    To take some high-flyin’ thoughts about intelligence operation elements which are certainly at work (I have no disagreement with that) and all of a sudden try to squish them all into this nice little tiny box called “scientology” that has an equally tiny “master puppeteer” as supposedly behind it all completely ruins your argument.

    You have to look with better eyes than that.


  265. Uncalled for? Church of Scientology DA? There you are reciting the OSA OSA OSA mantra without even bothering to read the vicious crap Tory gratuitously spreads against any Scientologist or ex-Scientologist. Just because we don’t agree with the church it doesn’t make it okay to shit on every Scientologist indiscriminately and that’s what Tory does. Think again before acting all upset and being politically correct.

  266. “That same party “rejects” a statement filed with the court. ”

    I believe I have my answer.

    @Mark Rathbun – That is some serious suckiness on Ortega’s part.

  267. Yes, uncalled for. Yes, Church of Scientology DA.

    I didn’t say that I don’t think Tory had done a lot of things which I certainly don’t approve of – one of which is trashing me and my husband on more than one occasion.

    So yes, I have first-hand personal experience of exactly what you’re talking about there.

    It doesn’t change what I said to you originally.

    Read it again now please.


  268. “Who is ‘them?'”. Really ?

    I use Standard English as taught in Warringer’s English Grammar and Composition series. The subject of the paragraph you are replying to is clearly the ASC (Anti-Scientology Cult). There are numerous recent articles here on Marty’s Blog to help you figure out to whom that appellation might accurately apply.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  269. Correction: that’s “Warriner’s English Grammar and Composition”

  270. Thanks, Virginia. I have never tried to knit socks! It looks daunting with using four small needles at the heel. I will have to go to my LYS and have them show me! Maybe we can turn this into a “Knitting with Marty” blog! Much more relaxing! 😉😉

  271. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. I read your comment and it is very clear. Stay politically correct if that’s what you want. Tory is an idiot because as long as OSA is the cause for everything it only goes to show how stuck she. As far as I am concerned she is not credible and I don’t believe a word she utters.

  272. Allow me to be the devil’s advocate.

    What if they are OSA lines?

    What if those lines are true?

    So only the critics are allowed to criticize and allegedly the only ones who tell the truth?

    How do you you think Tony Ortega and Mike Rinder “obtain” internal church documents?

    How do you think Karen de la Carriere “obtained” internal church events?

    How did Ortega “obtain” the latest DVD that he posted on his blog?

    Do you think they have plants?

    Ortega and Rinder have infiltrated the church but OSA can’t defend themselves from such infiltrations?

    If Rinder, Oretga and Karen don’t have plants then they are either stealing the documents or hacking. Which is it?

    I would keep an open mind if I were you.

  273. Hard science minded people might dismiss this theory and others by Sheldrake. I’m also thinking now that a lurker might think some people on this blog are airy-fairy. laughter

    It’s a buzzkill but needs mentioning that if Abrupt Climate Change and Near Term Extinction (as coined by Guy McPherson) are upon us, then hard science better start looking at all theories, paranormal or otherwise, and soon. Only dramatic breakthroughs in chemistry and physics offer any hope. Taking an optimistic viewpoint, quantum physics was an unknown a short while ago but is now in use as a part of everyday life.

    Also, all other good guy, bad guy scenarios in current civilization become irrelevent in relation to human extinction. With that said, day to day matters and issues, local and worldwide, still need to be attended to.

  274. the 100th monkey theory.

  275. Good grief! Do the world a favor give him a shot of dope! Daily! What a bully and terrorist! I bet he turned right into Mr Victim when the police arrived. he had a whole fan club on ESMB. Some of the women there went head over heels for him. Right up from sadism to masochism.

  276. It’s humorous to find that argument in a discussion of scientology, of all things. People have “facts,” attitudes and opinions about all kinds of things that don’t exist or whose existence is debatable. The mythical ASC is by far not the first occurrence of that.

    However, at issue here is NOT whether there are people who are opposing scientology, the “church,” its abuses, or any number of other things.Undoubtedly, such a phenomenon does indeed exist. The way Marty coined the term, the “C” does NOT stand for “community” but for “cult.” You did not know that? Hardly credible!

    And given ANY credible definition of what constitutes a “cult,” there is PLENTY of room for discussion whether such a thing does indeed exist!

  277. What is this? You learn this trick from Bill Clinton? Defining “them” is NOT going to distract from the fallacy (dishonesty?) of your “argument” any more than defining “the” distracted from his lies!

    You are claiming some kind of monolithic cult where folks in lock step accept one set of documents while hypocritically rejecting another. You present NO evidence. In fact, quite happy with how easily false generalization are often accepted, you don’t even try.

  278. Hi Virginia –
    I ran many searches – even with simple terms like [“David Love” 911 video] which used to give me the wordpress site, the two posted youtube videos, and lots of other inapplicable extras. On this night I was getting variously, ‘one’ inapplicable return (google), or on yahoo, dozens of “911” sites with nothing whatever “David Love” on the entire sites on the first rankings. I tried it many ways and without the 911 (which of course, gives the Sept 11 videos). Even youtube would not give me anything on David Love but one anonymous “theta-press” channel. I finally went back through earlier messages where we’d shared the links back in 2014.

    This is what I mean by “scrubbed.”

  279. Martin Padfield

    It saddens me to write this but I don’t think this, or much in your recent blog postings are helping anyone “move on up a little higher” – certainly judging by the comments here – those I’ve been able to get through anyway. What on earth is the point in publicly unloading a bucketful on Chris Shelton? Or Karen for that matter? Or Louis Theroux? Or John Sweeney? Or Ron Miscavige? Or even Tony Ortega. Aren’t they all just expressing themselves in wonderfully human ways? Obscure, diverse, eccentric, wrong maybe – who cares? Why not take your own advice and just “let it go”? Or pick up the phone or go for a few beers with them?

    Have any of the aforementioned harmed anyone with their writings or films? I doubt it. Who’s next in your firing line? Mike Rinder? Tory? Marc Headley? ANYONE who dares suggest that maybe cult abuses should be brought to light and stopped? And what’s with the labelling? “ASC” is just another label isn’t it? Is anyone who disagrees with you now a troll? Am I one for expressing an alternate view? I don’t get it. I personally never got involved in the ESMB thing – I read Mike’s blog occasionally but basically I’ve moved on. I am however a tad mystified by what seems like a continuation of the “vortex of hate” I think you called it. Live and let live eh?

  280. AJ wrote:

    “Allow me to be the devil’s advocate.

    What if they are OSA lines?

    What if those lines are true?”

    Read this:


  281. “Looks like Mike responds well to relatively light ethics.”

    Scientology lingo. Talk normal.

  282. “How Gullible Can One Get?”

    Banned in the Unites states of America and with Charlie Chaplin fleeing to zwitserland being acused of being a Communist:

    Anmerica, America, this is you !

  283. You keep thinking I’m disagreeing with you or being “PC” about Tory.

    I’ll try and clarify my point further for you.

    It is Anonymous types who cry OSAOSAOSA when it actually probably IS OSA, or something similar, that I have a problem with.

    I would also have problem IF it was falsely applied to Tory.

    I’m probably wasting my time even bothering to explain it further, but on the off chance anyone else misunderstood – there you go.


  284. I recommend you to stuff your arrogance in your “special place”

  285. Huh. That’s kind of weird, isn’t it.

  286. I think it’s for two reasons.

    (1) He’s trying to do something about the potential effects on the family by such things as posters finding out where they live and posting it for all to see. If I remember right, there was even a Google Earth photo posted. This is invasion of privacy and even represents a security threat.

    (2) He wants various truths to be known.

    You might have missed a comment above in this thread, where Marty mentioned the blog post (“When Distraction Becomes Destructive”) of November 2015, and then stated this:

    “Everything that I have published since is in response to an incredible chain of events that post kicked off in the paranoid minds of ASC royalty. The main reason I even bother with the housekeeping is that I hope it might show some exactly what you noted in your comment.”

    In an earlier comment on a previous thread, he described the “housekeeping” as leaving nothing unsaid or undone.

  287. When Tony Ortega ran the Cat White story he lost credibility and established himself as a gossip columnist . I might be a bit slow , but that’s when I saw it. Unacceptable.
    And indeed the bit about Mosey. Disgusting.
    His good reporting is tarnished . What a shame.

  288. Education in America ? does it still excist ?

  289. I meant that apparently Mike got wind of his blog being described as part of the Anti-Scientology Cult, as the tone there seemed to change recently – and it is my view that Mike sets the tone, in part because he decides which posts are moderated out.

    In other words, all it took for him to make a positive change was to have his blog described in a derogatory way. That’s relatively “light” ethics.

  290. Good points you made.

  291. I’d like to comment, since this is never, ever allowed for discussion anywhere else. (This is not the fault of ASC particularly, it is deeply embedded in modern western thinking – the dogpiling onto anyone who asks questions that might uncover criminal conspiracy. Some few people because have something to hide. Most really, really don’t want to find out – they are terrified of these sociopaths – and finding out is a scary proposition. And others just going along who, to their shame, really don’t care to know. Hubbard once had a brilliant moment of wisdom and issued the Withhold of Vital Information Rundown in an attempt to address it – which nobody – church or Indies – ever bothers with.)

    First of all, let us acknowledge that conspiracy and distrust is part and parcel of the Hubbard paranoid mindset. I’m done with that nonsense. But that does not mean dirty tricks and scheming isn’t ever going on where people consider a lot (their precious reputations, usually) is at stake.

    Let’s look at how these Opinion Leaders get hold of these leaked church materials, first of all. Having worked closely with a prominent critic, I can tell you how I have seen it happen.

    Prominent critics and leaders have high profiles. When someone smuggles video or issues out of the org, they contact one of these – Karen, Mike R, Arnie, Marty – you name them. These guys get these insider leaks all of the time! Yes – maybe even possibly from “OSA” – but a rogue in OSA, not OSA as the actual operation being run by Miscavige.

    I (ex-DSA org staff) have passed secret tips and documents myself back in the day, and one or more of the above “leaders” made good use of it!

    Having last been to OSA Int in 2009, I can tell you that OSA was severely short-handed in most departments (of course I cannot say anything about security – our actual concern here – since it is so compartmented). PAC base was empty!

    In around 2002 we DSAs were all called to LA to be briefed on a new era of PR because we were “winning” so much and our enemies were “almost gone” and all the old lawsuits were being settled. Then out rolled the social reform programs (which creates PR for the cherch). We were even told to “stay off the Internet” (we turned to each other and rolled our eyes at that one – none of us did).

    So I’ve rolled my eyes quite a bit about the idea of any serious OSA operations being in effect in the present day. Case in point: Lia Kea infiltrated the Sea Org in 2013. Do you know how they caught her? She was taping a secret Miscavige briefing and an MAA caught her holding up a minicam. She managed to withhold the data card on the way to HCO, but OSA was brought in to check her cell phone. My number was found on the phone. But I did not send her in – I was just a contact in case she got caught – at my own insistence. She was her own “plant” – totally rogue! So finally OSA catches her. It was late in the game, however. She had been posting videos and secret Flag Orders on easy-to-get-in Facebook groups for almost a year – even announcing her intentions weeks before departing for California!

    So the External Security Chief OSA Int spends days on this pretty insignificant cycle, questioning Lia and getting her to sign meaningless papers.

    I am just giving a data point here. I do not know for sure what is going on behind the scenes. Let the viewer be the judge. Use appropriate cautions. (Mind you, Flag and Clearwater creep me out to no end – the ex-CIA and ex-military that get hired to do dirty tricks around there.)

    But other than that? I keep seeing over and over that people have trouble being civil to each other – do ugly things that distract and derail their own version of what they THINK is effectively opposing the cherch, and DOING OSA’s WORK FOR THEM (quite effectively, I might add).

    As Alonzo and possibly others have already pointed out, we’ve already won a lot of the things we thought we were after, regarding the shrinking “cherch” – which I imagine is now having a hard time finding any thinking person who has not been already proofed up not to even walk in their doors. (Yes, people are trapped – a few are not able to just walk out the door, and I would definitely agree they are worth fighting for.)

    I’m here because I can see that Marty is right on point. A whole lot of “war” is being invented to create conflict where there isn’t.

    And considering how much they despise the tek, making Ron “right” I might add, on a few points (be forewarned that I don’t take these references too seriously anymore)…

    *”people need and want problems/ a game” (paraphrase of 1950’s LRH on problems – it’s true – the drama!)

    *if you don’t create a game, the game becomes “getting you” (from “Responsibilities of Leaders” – and plenty of this going on)

    People are addicted to games and “games sensation.” Karen seems to fit that. But if that is all she’s doing let’s give her a break (except for when that “game” is actually hurting someone who isn’t asking for it). If she’s working for someone (which I highly doubt) – may it see the light sooner rather than later.

    But Mike, Marty? (And Karen, too) What they are doing is a service to all of us going through our own process of sorting out what happened and why. Maybe their unpaid work is motivated by amends – maybe it’s an effort to stay in communication with the only people with any chance of understanding what they went through – who knows?

    In any event, one has to either uncover or invent some high-stakes game – financial or otherwise – some kind of intrigue – to even care – damn, I have to laugh at this – if OSA is in any way involved in their lives beyond filing daily reports from their cherch-lawyer-hired private eyes.

    Tony Ortega is a different matter. He is known to be making money – and he has no apparent ideological pursuit in any of this.

    But the well-researched book “The Cultural Cold War” by Francis Stonor Saunders I have here, reveals the extent that American media (of which the Village Voice is a major outlet) has been bought and paid for by our own CIA (“OSA” National). Operation Mockingbird. Although the chances are probably much less than 50-50 that Tony is involved in that level of intrigue, he most certainly is influenced by those who are!

    FOIA requests have been very fruitful, as we find in Tony’s articles, for any of the US Agencies that once pursued Hubbard and thought of him as for example, “appears mental.” But never a mention by Tony of the top-secret category assigned to FOIA requests for CIA files (a full 60 years after the founding of the Ch of Scn – “Denied for Reasons of National Security”).

    We find over the past year on Tony’s blog that Jon Atack worked for Russel Miller (“Bare-Faced Messiah”) – both books – both authors up to this day make Hubbard’s sheep-dipped war record a primary object of their ridicule. Neither does more than a half-hearted, brush-off analysis of the 1981 take-over of the cherch from Hubbard (whom I am not defending – he played their game – he directed it!).

    Then along comes Wright (CIA-connected through his father) with an effective expose on Scientology, though one that conforms perfectly to the Ortega-Atack-Miller party line.

    And that party line – as contradictory as it is upon close inspection, runs something like this:
    “Hubbard acted alone – he was genius enough to put this movement together and get intelligent people involved and devoted – but criminal-dumb-liar-hypnotist enough for us to laugh at – and, but – no way that his time in Naval Intelligence was anything but a temporary thing – opening people’s mail for a few months.”

    In other words, that Hubbard was just a crazy con-man, and look at all these dumb people who join this horrible cult!

    So in my opinion, we can narrow our target quite a bit if we entertain the idea that most probably:

    *Marty and Mike and other ex-Int execs are doing what they say they are doing – they may or may not have things to hide that might occasionally suppress truths (many of which might even no longer be significant to the rest of us, but concern individuals with grievances that will not settle in most public forum situations)

    *Karen is playing something a little too seriously – we don’t know what – could just be stuck in the only routines she’s ever known – could be a sincere effort to help, but with a blind spot or two that keeps her from seeing how her own programs are not always wise or effective (like shredding any skeptics who come along not fitting the above-mentioned party line, out of some idea it threatens the credibility of the movement – I could never, for example, post something like this around her)

    *Tony Ortega is now effectively doing what the cherch was possibly once put there to accomplish. Things have flipped 180. Those best and brightest minds (perceived threats to the keepers of the status quo) who once got sequestered in the $cientology trap, are now walking out into the Ortega trap and he -does- have help and direction from interested parties above his and David Miscavige’s paygrade – or maybe – quite possibly – he really -is- just a low-life publicity whore – (or as it usually turns out, a perfect combination of both!)

    And Tony Ortega has flown into a rage and personally attacked me three times on public forums for daring to suggest that $cientology was more than a lone-nut venture, but might have had some form of corporate sponsorship or intelligence connections.

    Call me a crazy “conspiracy nut.” (I. Don’t. Care.)

    (which was recently revealed to be the CIA cultural party line, by the way – coining the word “conspiracy theorist” – years ago – to tar and feather people who were bright enough to probe for example, their drug-running finally admitted to on their own site in 2000)

    Kevin Mackey from ESMB told Arnie and I and others on Facebook, that ESMB was just purging ESMB of “conspiracy theories” that might give onlookers an “unfavorable impression.” So Arnie and many others were booted (“purged”) from ESMB for that stated rationale, and their threads retired to “members-only.”

    Nothing to see here. $cientology was yet another “lone-nut” operation and that is that.

    Right in step with the party line.

    Here’s one for those who still believe Hubbard and his meter were all-knowing, or that he dared to go up against the agencies that mattered most. L. Ron Hubbard proclaimed in a ca. ~1970 Freedom Magazine article that Lee Harvey Oswald “acted alone” in shooting John F. Kennedy. Right in step with the party line of the day.

    Karen and Tony have been proclaiming and following and getting others to follow, party lines.

    Mike and Marty have been bucking party lines and Marty especially, has been taking flak from all sides.

    And I don’t even think OSA knows what it is doing – they are doing the latest emergency program following verbal orders from David Miscavige – cowed, ill associates all.

  292. Martin, very eloquently, wrote:

    What on earth is the point in publicly unloading a bucketful on Chris Shelton? Or Karen for that matter? Or Louis Theroux? Or John Sweeney? Or Ron Miscavige? Or even Tony Ortega. Aren’t they all just expressing themselves in wonderfully human ways? Obscure, diverse, eccentric, wrong maybe – who cares?”

    Everyone deserves the right to have the information necessary to make informed decisions. Whether that is Scientologists in the Church, or Anti-Scientologists on the Post-Scientology Internet.

    That’s the point.

    Thank you for your sincere question.

    I hope you consider this sincere reply.


  293. Todd,

    I’m not stupid or inexperienced enough to play “I’m not convinced” with a person who clearly hasn’t bothered to do their homework. Your assignment: go read the last 40 posts and each and every comment at: (1) Tony Ortega’s Underground Bunker, (2) Michelle “Emma” Sterling’s Ex-Scientologist Message Board, (3) Operation Clambake and (4) Anonymous’ Why We Protest. Take care to note the recurring posters as well as what comments are getting upvotes and downvotes.

    The evidence of whether or not there exists any significant degree of cultish behavior patterns and which posting identities display them is there as a matter of public record for all who wish to see for themselves.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  294. Best Comment on entire post.. and many more before this.

  295. “Aren’t they all just expressing themselves in wonderfully human ways? ”

    Honest people have rights too. And this is an eternal truth. It will always be true.

    Your holy moley gospel is so god damned anti religious and anti justice and anti spiritual it makes me want to barf and slap your face at the same time.

    Thank you for letting me be my wonderfully human self.

  296. The attacks on Marty and his wife are not HUMAN. THEY ARE ANTI HUMAN. This is not humanity. It is sadism and injustice.

  297. Scott – Would it surprise you to know that I agree with a lot of what you say here? 🙂

    Just to single out one thing to thank you for telling us here –


    “Kevin Mackey from ESMB told Arnie and I and others on Facebook, that ESMB was just purging ESMB of “conspiracy theories” that might give onlookers an “unfavorable impression.” So Arnie and many others were booted (“purged”) from ESMB for that stated rationale, and their threads retired to “members-only.””

    Is what Mike and I looked at each other and both said, when we were both banned in 2015.

    We were threatening their party line status quo, and they are so fearful of others even LOOKING that… there you go. One of their main cheerleaders once said that we “influence others into thinking like us” – which is reverse-speech about the same thing you just described in your full comment.

    Heaven forbid anyone look beyond the party line, eh?

    Thank you Scott, for not being like that.


  298. Scott wrote:

    “(which was recently revealed to be the CIA cultural party line, by the way – coining the word “conspiracy theorist” – years ago – to tar and feather people who were bright enough to probe for example, their drug-running finally admitted to on their own site in 2000)”

    So, in relation to the ESMB bannings and Tony Ortega’s behavior, perhaps rather than “OSA” what we’re really dealing with here is CIA and their “momma” MI6 influence.


  299. @Scott Gordon

    There are many ideas within scientology that I was able to successfully use during my time living as a “scientologist”, but almost none were able to be used successfully *without* inserting my sub-understanding of the much more complete REAL truths that said ideas were attempting to rest on, that I was already well-aware of.

    This is why being a scientologist, or a Catholic, or anything else I chose to be for whatever my reasons were in so doing, could *never* destroy me, my mind and heart – my core.

    Those are untouchable and I never compromise them.

    This is why I don’t mind talking to you Scott, whether it’s about scientology or anything else. It’s because I perceive that you too have an accurate, core understanding of some basic truths that is unshakable. Therefore, I don’t care whether you are a scientologist or a swami because of *that* – that single and beautiful, wondrous and magnificent, and accurate sense of self is all that matters to me.


  300. Is this like a single narrative thing? Karen and Tony can lie like rugs about people but that’s because they’re being *just expressing themselves in wonderfully human ways* and if we have a DIFFERENT view of things that we so unapprovedly dare to express, then we are what…

    NOT *just expressing themselves in wonderfully human ways*?

    What are we then – SUB-humans? Aliens? Demons? Body-Thetans?

    Such bullshit.


  301. By the way, Oracle, I have now been sent actual screenshots of the events in November of 2015 at the Outer Banks group that clearly show Karen’s shepherding of the flock to have an anti-McClaughry narrative.


  302. Never mind the four needles, get two circular needles in the same size for your pattern choice, but with different lengths (so you can tell which is “needle one”), use Ann’s magic cast-on for knitting in the around and away you go. MUCH less fiddly.


  303. Well Thank You Virginia

    That is a very nice validation and I appreciate it.

    I’m very happy to be around persons – like you and some others here – who have principles and integrity as a fundamental priority.

  304. Ann – Correction: the cast-on I mentioned is Judy’s Magic Cast on. But, that only works for toe-up sock patterns. For cuff-down, you need a different type of cast on,basically a standard cast on but with some definite fiddling to get it all set up to be joined in the round. Once done, then away you go.

  305. LOL! Great exchange! I’m laughing along with both of you. I remember knitting (if you can call it that) pot holders in about the first grade. I got good at it and was quite proud of myself. “Knitting Sock Puppets With Marty” might keep more ex-scn’ists interested.

  306. Marty, all I know is I can’t thank you enough for writing about the ASC. Since I’ve been openly agreeing with you, they’ve all been unfriending & blocking me. Chris Shelton, Karen, Mockingbird, Claire Swazey. It’s awesome! I don’t have to see their warped, pointless, ego starved rants anymore.

    Also, I want to reiterate. There is a difference between the anti-Scientology ‘Movement’ and The anti-Scio ‘Cult’ The anti-Scientology movement serves a purpose. It is a collective idea that The CoS needs to be outlawed. The movement strives towards that goal by protesting and having an inner passion for anti-Scientology activism.

    The anti-Scientology cult on the other hand- they have a passion for self image, ego, and power. They still practice Scientology’s Disconnection Policy. They also behave like Scientologists.

    Notice the people who I’ve mentioned. Claire, Chris, Karen, Mockingbird. What do they all have in common? #1-Weird freakazoid behavior. #2- Still behaving like Scientologists. #3- Blocking any ‘entheta’ or criticism from their view #4- Controlling how we should think. OR #5- ALL OF THE ABOVE.

    Do I care if I’m banished from The ASC? Heck no. I am glad I’m not affiliated with those bozos. Moral of my story- Don’t follow the ASC. Lead your own direction within the anti-Scientology Movement. Keep saying it like it is Marty.

  307. Well, I was being serious, I do actually knit socks. lol

  308. Brian – thanks for adding your thoughts. I obtained the ability of “being Clear” just by reading that book and being mindful everyday of “don’t take things personal”. Plenty of opportunities to practice it and some days are easier than others. I found I have “triggers” (side effects) from my involvement in a high demand and control group – Scientology – but this book gives some wonderful advice and common sense approach on a sane way to “be”.

  309. Pingback: BLACKMAIL | Moving On Up a Little Higher

  310. hahahahahahahahahahhaha gaaawd
    +1 !

  311. But I do! PM me, we’re going to have a session!

  312. I agree with you on that one

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