As long as we are discussing fictional narratives, I have wondered at what *would* have happened if the Dems won the presidential election. Would a Scn ‘holocaust’ have been offered up a la Waco? Haters gonna hate, and the commonwealth countries people just don’t ‘get’ the US constitution, as they have been without freedom of speech and separation of church and state for so long.
Ken Wilber and other Integral theorists say that the liberals have taken “green” too far. “Green” in that theory symbolizes the worldview that all truth is relative, and that what unfortunately followed was the idea that any specific point of view must be stamped out – which ironically is an absolute point of view.
You may be right that the “Dems” would have taken extreme measures against Scientology, but I hope Wilber is right that green will come to its senses.
What I’ve realized in this series of videos is that people in general, not just those in the ASC and the anti-ASC but all of us, have a tendency to express ourselves in a way that gives more credence to our own bias to one degree or another, while hardly being couscious of doing it. And to whatever degree it occurs, it’s being dishonest.
That said, I do think the ASC overall is particularly guilty of this, even though individuals within it may vary with regard to how aware they are of doing it.
marildi, I think you could really get into some of the Transactional Analysis materials especially the Drama Triangle stuff:
For more of a brief intro, there’s this:
Thanks, Val. I read that article – very illuminating. And applicable to the topic of discussion.
I wouldn’t have looked for any harsh actions against the CoS from the Dems.
Rinder’s blog update: Here are the last few posts, including where Mike tells his fans that I have “decided not to post here anymore” – which of course I didn’t decide at all. It’s kinda like the CoS, which always declares that so-and-so “disconnected entirely voluntarily, on his own determinism.” rather than saying “he was banned”. I tak eit to mean Mike intends to moderate away most or al of my posts – otherwise some people will be disappointed, as their comments show. This way, he can keep his image of being the tolerant guy who allows anyone to post. We shall see, won’t we?
(Fair use segment copied here for educational purposes)
July 6, 2017 at 10:26 pm
You talk shit ALL THE TIME over at Marty’s!! About everyone here!
How can you come here and talk to ANYONE? ABOUT ANYTHING.
why do you post here at all?
Mike Rinder says
July 6, 2017 at 11:07 pm
He has decided not to post here any more.
July 6, 2017 at 9:14 pm
Can’t you guys and gals see that this guy, I-am-a-troll-valkov is insane? Is it just me, or isn’t it kind of obvious?
July 7, 2017 at 8:22 am
Imatroll has decided not to post here anymore? Wow, that’s great news! Thanks for letting us know Mike…. It’s about time!
To be fair to Mike, in one of my last comments to him, I did mention that I was usually not one to go where I was not welcome. Perhaps this was enough of an impetus for him to post what he did.
Here are some of the results on Rinder’s blog. As I suspected, Rinder took my remark to mean I was deciding/had decided to not post on his blog anymore, which I had not said. I’m sure he was relieved, because he had already called me a nuisance and was pressing me about my purpose for posting on the blog at all. As he explains in his comment, my lack of “decorum” was a big problem. It is true, I am blunt and often abrasive. Perhaps troll-like. I understand how I can be perceived that way.
On the other hand, I guess it’s OK to call another “insane” as long as you do it decorously? Which Thetaclear did not do – he was quite blunt about it himself. So was that professor, but he came back and apologized.
Evidently I irritated several people. One of the ways I irritated Rinder was on the point of whether or not Aftermath was “scripted” or not. He had already stated it was not, but I questioned it again.
Anyway, here is some of the “Aftermath” of my posts. I’m putting them up because it is a very long and disjointed comment thread I don’t expect anyone to parse.
Rinder’s “alternative reality” on why I’m (supposedly) not posting there any more is instructive – Rinder: “He chose to keep pushing the limits of decorum and with his choice he bowed out because I don’t want the constant baiting to continue.” That sounds like a ban to me. But I actually think if I mellowed my posting he would let me post again. It picks up where my last excerpt leaves off:
July 7, 2017 at 8:22 am
July 7, 2017 at 12:32 pm
Did I do that? I know I wasn’t very nice to him because he’s a dick. I am sorry if he’s not gonna post here anymore is that what you guys wanted? I feel bad I hope Mike’s not mad LOL
Mike Rinder says
July 7, 2017 at 5:29 pm
See my other answer to TJ
July 7, 2017 at 4:12 pm
Well, I did not forsee this outcome, and to be honest, I think all this was a bit much, and kind of extreme. I was only pointing out that valkov’s post to Brian seemed overly confrontational, and was pursuing a silly point, so therefore was unnecessary, and I understand that Mike R. was irritated by this as well, and had some words with him, but I did not anticipate that my post would be the catalyst for a big confrontation with other posters piling on valkov, and the discussion turning so contentious and personal, and I actually don’t feel well about that, as I try to be a person who is respectful of others and contributes positively to whatever forum I am in, and don’t think I was doing that at that point, and truthfully, I don’t think valkov was trying to be a troll, he just had a strong viewpoint, with an annoying way of expressing it, but it was not so terrible that he should be vilified and outcast… it didn’t really rise to that level, and we’ve had much worse posters here. So, I’m thinking that I should take care to choose my words more carefully and thoughtfully in the future, to avoid creating this type of situation again. Sorry for my part in this, I need to stop trying to direct how anyone else expresses themselves in a public forum, it’s a failing of mine.
Mike Rinder says
July 7, 2017 at 5:25 pm
His choice not to comment further here was predicated on his last comments that I sent to the trash. He was challenging me and others in a hostile manner. I think he was trying to see how far he could go. He found out. Nothing to do with you or any other commenter. He chose to keep pushing the limits of decorum and with his choice he bowed out because I don’t want the constant baiting to continue.
July 7, 2017 at 4:15 pm
Lion’s Third Roar: I tried to answer your post but there were several posts that had no “Reply” button, so I had to come way down the thread here. No need to apologize. I LOVED your post and the way you expressed it. I blew down reading it. (i.e., had a lifting of mass by reading it, which is a good thing…) I loved how you described Marty. It actually helped me to better understand what Marty is doing. I think it all boils down to he has snapped and gone more or less insane, and you can’t understand insanity, so stop trying to. And you nailed Iamvalcov also. DO keep posting here. We’d all like to read your comments.
Valkov: “Evidently I irritated several people. One of the ways I irritated Rinder was on the point of whether or not Aftermath was “scripted” or not. He had already stated it was not, but I questioned it again.”
I was following the exchange and tried to give you some support with the following comment – which was moderated out:
“The point about it not being ‘acted’ is debatable at the times when Leah reacts to what has been said with a shocked or pained look on her face. It’s as if she’s hearing it for the first time. And even if she is, it comes across as overly dramatic acting.”
You quoted above the following comment by Mike: “He was challenging me and others in a hostile manner. ”
I guess by “hostile,” he means you weren’t being suitably docile and deferential, and soft-pedaling your views – as is required by anyone who has a dissenting opinion, if they don’t want to be piled on and/or get their posts deleted. If you were being hostile at all, it was far less so than others were being towards you. I have had the same treatment, and it does tend to introvert, but I don’t let it.
As the professor, I can tell you that she didn’t come back to apologize to you. She apologized to everyone else.
Wouldn’t want you to be under any false impressions.
Thanks for the head’s up, prof. I don’t know that my impression was false. You were evidently apologizing for somehow violating your own code of conduct because you were in a bad mood. If you now mean you still feel I deserved to be the object of your bad mood at the time you wrote that post. I can live with that. I stick by my opinion that your post was supercilious. Carry on.
I think it’s good you’re doing some reading over here. It’s always good to look at things from multiple viewpoints.
I was labeled persona non grata for questioning Mike’s veracity by requesting dox to back up his assertions which must be a high crime in Rinder World 🙂
They have created such a safe, nurturing and symbiotic environment, so much healthier than any Church they could be involved with. The ASC communities, really do outshine the Scientologists, don’t they? When setting up their own group, it becomes such a loving, merciful, tolerant and uplifting group to be in.
When Marty started his blog people left the Church in droves seeking better company. Better conversations. Sanctuary. But for some reason, I haven’t heard or seen of anyone leaving the Church and connecting up with the ASC groups for, possibly years. I can’t imagine why. Not with all the love and nurturing, good will and good intentions.
Emotional narratives have a short shelf life.
Scientology is proof that one can read ancient texts and manufacture a religion.
Scientology is blocked from future growth not by the legacy of violence but by Hubbard’s dogmatism.
Not necessarily, George. The dogmatism wasn’t there early on, and it doesn’t need to be there now. Did you happen to see that Reza Aslan show on CNN with Independent Scientologists? I think they have based their practices on just the basic tech.
I remember the exact moment when the dogmatism started in Scientology. I was sitting in Miami at the org and KSW was put in front of me for the very first time. Do you think KSW is optional? That is how I first responded to it.
Yes, I do think KSW is optional with respect not deviating in any way from the tech in its final form. Some of the Independents who were on that TV special that I mentioned must think so too, since they have expanded on the tech. A couple other examples that I know of are the Dror Center in Israel and Ron’s Org, both of which include Capt. Bill Robertson’s expanded tech in their delivery. Also off the top of my head are Dexter Gelfand and David St. Lawrence.
Outside the church, people are free in their use of the tech – unless they are still too heavily indoctrinated to even realize it. Some critics try to encourage this point of view by asserting that everything in the materials MUST be adhered to or it isn’t the tech – which I think is their way of trying to discourage its use and wipe it out altogether.
Former Scientolgists like you who found only the lower bridge to be beneficial could stick with that alone. Others might want to include some of the OT levels but not all of them, depending on what they believe is workable. And then there are people like me who feel auditing could complement certain other practices, such as the ones that basically rely on meditation to handle unresolved issues, as auditing is probably much faster and more efficient.
Thanks , Marildi.
The Independents seem to be expanding.
George, I don’t recall exactly when I was introduced to KSW, but it was several years after the “mission massacre” of 1982. But I do recall that, because I was at the local mission when the Sea Org team came to take control of it. I sat on the stairs and watched as they demanded the keys from the person who had been left in charge while the mission holder herself was out of town. This was co-ordinated. She was called away on a Tech pretext, of urgently needing to get some case handling on her upper levels. She was pretty OT and knew her stuff so they called her away to do the deed. I think I was there to get some auditing that day, upstairs. She was, of course, eventually declared SP. What a bad joke!
The mission was reclassified as the Ann Arbor org and that’s where I was introduced to KSW a few years later. There were some really great people associated with that organization, both staff and public, but the advent of the IAS killed all that. The IAS was and is the biggest Third Party towards the viability of the orgs, ever. It directly stole the income of all the orgs, and the time of all the staff. The IAS essentially put an end to the training an auditing the orgs had been doing. That’s why scientology as it was originally, is no longer done.
The IAS came in much later.
They did a lot of damage after I left
Ironically,I believe the IAS came about in 1984.
Thought some here might find this interesting:
“Trolling is the obsession over and debasement of the other for amorphous crimes against the subculture. Thus for the alt-right, identitarians are an object of constant ridicule that should be, in the language of sexual violence, ‘triggered’ with misogynist, racist and anti-semitic memes as both a matter of enjoyment and internet justice. Yet for all of the complaints about liberal snowflakes and grievance culture, trolls are obsessed with what is served in the cafeteria of a private liberal arts college they’ve never heard of. There is an inability to enjoy while this pervasive other threatens their memes, video games, traditional marriage and even Western civilisation.”
““When men choose not to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing in anything.” GK Chesterton
“Do not hate anybody, because that hatred which comes out from you must, in the long run, come back to you. If you love, that love will come back to you, completing the circle”
“To love those that love you is easy. To love those that love you not is not so simple. If you want to change anyone, set a better example. Show more kindness, more understanding, more love. That has a sure effect. To those who are not kind, show kindness. To those who are mean, show bigness of heart.’
WHAT IS GREATNESS?
BY L. RON HUBBARD
The hardest task one can have is to continue to love his fellows despite all reasons he should not.
And the true sign of sanity and greatness is to so continue.
For the one who can achieve this, there is abundant hope.
For those who cannot, there is only sorrow, hatred and despair. And these are not the things of which greatness—or sanity or happiness are made.
A primary trap is to succumb to invitations to hate.
There are those who appoint one their executioners. Sometimes, for the sake of safety of others, it is necessary to act. But it is not necessary to also hate them.
To do one’s task without becoming furious at others who seek to prevent one is a mark of greatness—and sanity. And only then can one be happy.
Seeking to achieve any single desirable quality in life is a noble thing. The one most difficult—and most necessary—to achieve is to love one’s fellows despite all invitations to do otherwise.
If there is any saintly quality, it is not to forgive. “Forgiveness” accepts the badness of the act. There is no reason to accept it. Further, one has to label the act as bad to forgive it. “Forgiveness” is a much lower-level action and is rather censorious.
True greatness merely refuses to change in the face of bad actions against one—and a truly great person loves his fellows because he understands them.
After all, they are all in the same trap. Some are oblivious of it, some have gone mad because of it, some act like those who betrayed them. But all, all are in the same trap—the generals, the street sweepers, the presidents, the insane. They act the way they do because they are all subject to the same cruel pressures of this universe.
Some of us are subject to those pressures and still go on doing our jobs. Others have long since succumbed and rave and torture and strut like the demented souls they are.
We can at least understand the one fact that greatness does not stem from savage wars or being known. It stems from being true to one’s own decency, from going on helping others whatever they do or think or say and despite all savage acts against one, to persevere without changing one’s basic attitude toward Man.
To that degree, true greatness depends on total wisdom. They act as they do because they are what they are—trapped beings, crushed beneath an intolerable burden. And if they have gone mad for it and command the devastation of whole nations in errors of explanation, still, one can understand why and can understand as well the extent of their madness. Why should one change and begin to hate just because others have lost themselves and their own destinies are too cruel for them to face?
Justice, mercy, forgiveness, all are unimportant beside the ability not to change because of provocation or demands to do so.
One must act, one must preserve order and decency. But one need not hate or seek vengeance.
It is true that beings are frail and commit wrongs. Man is basically good, but Man can act badly.
He only acts badly when his acts, done for order and the safety for others, are done with hatred. Or when his disciplines are founded only upon safety for himself regardless of all others; or worse, when he acts only out of a taste for cruelty.
To preserve no order at all is an insane act. One need only look at the possessions and environment of the insane to realize this. The able keep good order.
When cruelty in the name of discipline dominates a race, that race has been taught to hate. And that race is doomed.
The real lesson is to learn to love.
He who would walk scatheless through his days must learn this—never use what is done to one as a basis for hatred. Never desire revenge.
It requires real strength to love Man. And to love him despite all invitations to do otherwise, all provocations and all reasons why one should not.
Happiness and strength endure only in the absence of hate. To hate alone is the road to disaster. To love is the road to strength. To love in spite of all is the secret of greatness. And may very well be the greatest secret in this universe.
Nice, Brian. I appreciate your posting these here.
Love; with it anything is posssible. With it broken theta lines mend and heal.
Without it rises the need for enemies.
Thank you MLK, the Mahatma, the Beatles, Jesus and Lord Buddha for teaching us that love is the golden thread that weaves civil society. And is the secret essence of all life transcendent. And the greatest foe of darkness.
May this Scientology diaspora and all of the precious souls who are now looking for a home; find that home in the unstoppable power of love only.
The greatest anarchy is love, because it destroys without mercy the polarized reactivity of GPM’s and Op Terms that we from time too time project onto each other in times of trouble.
Since our nature is love and we share it; we grant others their own beingness because their nature is love; underneath all of this noisey mind stuff we cling to are happy loving connections.
I wish this for all. I hope others feel the same. It helps.
And thanks Marty for allowing these three quotes. That warmed my heart.
What a wonderful thought!
Hubbard with a belief in one supreme God.
That being would undergo a real test of patience.
I actually have no idea how someone could explore Scientology and not have some perception of God, The Gods, higher powers, or supernatural influences beyond oneself. It is the seventh and eight dynamics described. How can you use that ethics system, and make decisions for the greatest good, without any perception of two of those dynamics?
The problems I see socially, with people who do not answer to a higher power along those dimensions, is the struggle between themselves, to be the higher power.
The thing about Marty is when he left the Church, he pushed other people up into power. Most have turned back to pull the rug out from under his feet in an attempt to be the highest power. Overtly or covertly.
Leah Remini is on the front lines now, but only almost a decade after Marty stood on the front lines taking the initial blows. She couldn’t resist issuing a declaration of her own against him recently and she has obviously had one or more of Karen’s briefings. Because she is parroting Karen.
Tony Ortega fans the flames each morning. But he has turned all of the attacks against Scientologists in general. Before that, he was targeting Nation of Islam. Karen channels through Ortega and Remini. Fans the flames and organizes the conflicts and victims for exploitation. Everyone else is just easily excitable. Eager to pitch in their fair share of abuse.
Mike Rinder got involved as a young kid and I doubt if his life has ever been in ruin. But he hit the streets with the clothes on his back and had to reinvent himself. And I have been in his shoes.
Marty was already worldly when he got involved in Scientology and even had some college education. He didn’t cave when the heat came down. But others did. Mike Rinder got cut a really bad deal in the Church and the fact that his family from before is being used as weapons against him is repelling.
On the other hand, when Karen orchestrated the media fair gaming on the Duggan children, Mike contributed. I saw the video his Ex wife did and her victim performance and It was along the same lines as Leah’s A and E special and her guests.
Somehow Karen has managed to make the fight a fight against Scientologists. Before that she had her own thing going on with the Muslims. Her and Tony have ethnic cleansing goals and they work well together.
None of them have pushed Mike to be the best that he can be. Least of all Leah. He has been misused a lot. But I always said he should be in Hollywood and he is. It’s hard to keep a good man down. And I don’t like to see any man down.
Leah, Tony, Karen, they all had a million things they could have done besides group together for ethnic cleansing. They made that choice from the standpoint of seeking revenge as a priority, hate, and taking pleasure in damages. Mercenary work.
I think if Mike had any other choice, he would have taken it. But he didn’t have too many choices. Karen established herself as a dominant in his life through “help”. Which was actually a “pay advance”. And he was put in a position to “repay”.
And in case you haven’t read her recent posts on Marty, when Karen calls in the chips and you don’t comply, she fair games and degrades you for even once considering asking her for “help”. Or receiving it.
I think Mike is just doing the best he can and he does have two kids to raise. And a wife to take care of.
Tony, Karen, Leah, they take care of themselves first. Everyone goes under the bus before they do.
Mike, I think he is still trying to take care of other people. Cope. It is kind of sad for me to see him converted into an instrument meant to harm. I don’t think it is his basic nature. But I don’t think Scientology saved his life either. He could have done a million other things besides devote himself to helping others. He has a right to go in any direction he wants. He was fighting for his life when he left the Church. He has a right to make that time he spent there, mean something to him. It was his life. He was convicted of crimes he did not commit, imprisoned, he did hard time in a prison at the Int Base, he escaped. He has every right to commit the crimes he was punished for now.
After all, he paid for them in advance.
Ortega, who is the most warlike, has never been set up for a loss in Scientology. He’s in it all for the pleasure of the hunt and kill. And Karen has him established as a top lieutenant. Over people who have far more understanding than he does, under his command.
Leah, Karen, and Tony, are at full regard for self, zero regards for others. I don’t think Mike is that way.
But all of this conflict, even Leah beginning to attack and bully Marty on the Internet, is coming from Karen and her top messenger, Tony Ortega. Who’s purpose it is to fan the flames.
Because after all, if everyone was cool with their choices, the lives they created for themselves, at peace and harmony, No one would be paying any attention to Karen, Tony, or Leah. And there would be nothing in people to restimulate. No way to fan the flames and keep the wars going.
But I think Mike would rather be out building bridges if he could. He is just in a place where his peers do not lean in those directions.
But back to the God issue, if you can not perceive something, it does mean it is not there. This is the thing with atheists. They think if they can’t perceive it, it does not exist. Leah’s propensity for bearing false witness, causes me to doubt her devotion to the Catholic ways and means. I doubt she, Karen or Ortega recognize sources beyond themselves that are higher powers.
They may be riding today. But they are all out of favor with the Gods. They are just in favor with the fans. And I know first hand how fleeting and fickle fans can be. Truly the most elusive dynamic to manage. It’s a never quite fed or satisfied bottomless pit.
Great post, Oracle. And I agree with you about Mike R. I’ve never met him but I see him as a gentle guy who tries to take car of people without hurting them. He has some travelling companions, though, who are not like him. I wish him well.
In Transactional Analysis terms, I think it is easy to identify the Rescuers, the Victims, and the Persecutors on that blog, and actually on almost any site on the Internet which has comments on it. Facebook is a prime lab for this. The Persecutors are of course the ones who pile on.
I would like to introduce everyone to Peter Torres, who usually posts as some variation of Thetaclear. He posted over on Geir’s blog for awhile, 2-3 years ago. Kinda like Vinaire, he had all the answers. To hear him tell his autobiography, he brags a lot like Hubbard used to do. Over at Rinder’s blog, he told everyone Geir had “banned” me several times because I used to drive Geir crazy.( That might be true! 🙂 But Geir always handled it well. Peter lumped marildi as doing the same. Here’s what he is telling people about me over at Rinder’s:
Relax T.J., it had nothing to do with you. Individuals like Valkov, I’ve had to deal with all my life. They basically stir up trouble, get others upset, and then play the victim role and leave. Their purpose is to make others feel bad, guilty and upset.
“Relax T.J., it had nothing to do with you. Individuals like Valkov, I’ve had to deal with all my life. They basically stir up trouble, get others upset, and then play the victim role and leave. Their purpose is to make others feel bad, guilty and upset.
You seems to be a very nice and gentle individual. But, IMHO, we need to be able to play the “being nice and compassionate” role, but also know when to change gears to the “being a bitch” role. Otherwise, the unduly and the insane eat us up.
I can be extremely compassionate and gentle – most of the time I am – but I can also cut anyone’s head with no remorse whatsoever, when I really that an individual is evil intentioned.”
It seems notable that “Thetaclear” made several posts like this about me, with nary a peep of objection to the ad hom, from Rinder. Intererstingly, it never occurs to him that Rinder is lying about my choosing to leave of my own free will. That’s why I am making these posts here. Sadly, I like Mike R., still. I can only assume he is doing the best he can. However I can’t avoid the parallel between his description of my “deciding not to post” there anymore, and what a spokesperson for scientology might say about someone who is declared SP and “expelled”(shunned, disconnected) from the CoS – “He chose to keep pushing the limits of decorum and with his choice he bowed out because I don’t want the constant baiting to continue.” Change a few words and there you have it – “He chose to be Declared and expelled because he wouldn’t follow the party line, and questioned Command Intention. It was his decision.” Perhaps you can take Rinder out of the Church, but it’s not so easy to take the Church out of Rinder. Anyway, I wish Mike well and I still think what he is trying to do with the Aftermath show is a good thing, as far as alerting the public to the dangers of the CoS. So charge on ahead, Mike and Leah.
To clarify one point, Geir never suspended or banned me from his blog that I recall, although perhaps he came close once. Interestingly, when I confronted Peter “Thetaclear” about this, he immediately said he had never claimed that Geir banned me. However his post is right there, saying I had been banned repeatedly.
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