The following is the third piece of advice I shared with Scientologists in What Is Wrong With Scientology?    I would love to hear what Independent Scientologists have to say about this.

Transcend or Descend

At the January, 1986 L. Ron Hubbard funeral event we touched on in Chapter 12, Pat Broeker announced that OT 9 and OT 10 were fully written up by Hubbard and ready for release.  That was a blatant lie.

Twenty years later, David Miscavige told a collection of elite Scientology contributors that L. Ron Hubbard had written up OT 9, OT 10, OT 11, OT 12, OT 13, OT 14 and OT 15.  That was a whopping lie.  The last OT level L. Ron Hubbard ever wrote up was OT 8.  Then he died.

Pat Broeker used the threat of never turning over the alleged OT 9 and OT 10 in an effort to get Miscavige to allow him to exercise control in Scientology Inc. I was a part of three separate forcible search-and-seizures Miscavige directed in order to get at the alleged OT 9 and 10 at Broeker hideouts.  Each time we came up empty-handed, and finally concluded there were no such things.  This was validated by the senior technical officer of Scientology since L Ron Hubbard’s death, one Ray Mithoff. Mithoff audited Hubbard during his final week of life. Mithoff acknowledged in my presence that Hubbard had nothing intelligible to say about any levels that might exist above OT 8, let alone gave any indication that anything had been written up about them.

These horrendous big lies, growing in magnitude as years rolled by, are the continuing creation of the religious con played out through the ages, so well described in Paine’s Age of Reason.

For those who have honestly accomplished OT 8, it makes perfect sense.  After all, at OT 8 Hubbard seeks to guide an individual toward a state or condition of no longer having the slightest attention devoted to past identities, any aspect of the past, introversion or regression.  At that level, there wouldn’t be even a remote desire for or inclination toward introspective processes or practices of any kind.

A number of people who had completed OT 8 have come to me, hoping that I could give some inside scoop on where Hubbard said it went from there.  My response is usually along the lines of: “Please do not invalidate yourself and Hubbard so.  Do you think he was cruel enough to build the Bridge to a place where, when you’ve reached the apex, you are so ill-equipped to move on that you must cling to the guard rail , waiting for some priest to prescribe your every step?  Do you feel so vulnerable and weak that you cannot step out on your own and begin to walk your own walk toward higher plateaus?”

I sometimes share the following account of a Zen Buddhist practitioner’s colloquy with Zen master Xuedou:

Someone asked Xuedou, “As it is said, ‘the road beyond is not transmitted by any of the sages.’ Where did you get it?” Xuedou said, “I thought you were a Zen practitioner.”

Some express disbelief that Hubbard would not have published something that explicitly let the world know that OT 8 was the end.  First, this is not surprising to me.  Hubbard was perpetually exploring and prolifically publishing the results of his findings, throughout his life.  I would have expected him to be exploring to the end, and if he died before he found anything worthy of publication during his elderly ventures, then the last thing he published would be the last thing he found worthy of publication.  Second, if one thinks that OT 8 is the end simply because it is the ultimate attainment on the Scientology Bridge, then from the very beginning one wasn’t pursuing the same ends Hubbard was.

To feel or act as if one needed to be the recipient of more knowledge or more effect, then one would have fallen into the trap Hubbard himself warned that formal education had created to sabotage the entire field of philosophy:

I hope no man ever falls into that trap because it blocked human thought and human progress. Philosophy became completely abandoned as a subject…and even at this moment they still give a Doctor of Philosophy degree in universities which demands only this of the student: that he know what philosophers have said. Now, that is incredible. If you had a Doctor of Philosophy, you would expect that Doctor of Philosophy to be able to philosophize. The professors of those courses would just be shocked beyond shock if you dared come in and infer that the end and goal of their students should be the production of philosophy. No sir, that’s how you keep a society static.

I have seen subjectively and objectively that this is precisely the product produced by corporate Scientology.  They create people who have devoted their entire adult lives to studying and auditing to achieve the ability of ‘knowing how to know’ (the very definition of Scientology), only to wind up feeling lost, abandoned, and powerless to do anything except to slavishly kowtow to a fascist regime, in hopes it will dispense the next carrot of wisdom.

And so the corporate Scientologist never learns to walk the walk. Instead, he learns to stand compliantly in leg shackles and talk the Scientology Inc. talk.

One who has reached the top in Scientology has two choices: transcend or descend.  One can descend down into the mire that corporate Scientology has become.  That entails adopting the sickly ‘victim’ jacket, since the hallmark of a corporate Scientologist is the certainty that until certain people, ideas and even fields of study are exterminated, Scientology can never achieve its aims.  It means covertly being a victim while asserting with great energy that you are quite the opposite, the totally-certain superhero who is part of the elite group with the only answer, and thus possess carte blanche with which to forward that group by any means necessary.  It includes behaving in a compliant, other-determined fashion, so as to avoid getting into trouble and tarnishing one’s image and status.  Because in Miscavige’s world, image and status have become everything.

Or one can choose to transcend.  Transcend with your developed insight and ability to observe and think for yourself.  Maybe even use what you know to help others ascend and transcend.  For me, that has included using Scientology to help others remove those jackets that keep them weighted to serious, painful lives.  Each auditing session I deliver – at whatever level of the Bridge – not only results in cognitions (enlightenments) for the preclear, it also results in cognitions on my part. I continue to study and find and use many other writings, from various sources, that might work more directly to move a particular individual on up a little higher from where he or she might stand.  That study also brings about a greater appreciation of what is right and workable and recognition of what is wrong and unworkable about Scientology.   But I am not saying that is your calling, purpose, or path to greater heights.  Only you can determine what that is.


248 responses to “Transcend

  1. I agree that there wouldn’t be anything beyond OT VIII. I mean, “Cause over Matter, Energy, Space and Time” is a really good starting point. If I were there, I would be creating a lot, I assure you. However, LRH also said that the training side of the bridge is where you get half of your gains. I think that if one were OT VIII and not trained as an auditor such as a class VIII, then he would be lost because he would be without a proper map. He would be the effect of others’ aberrations and therefore the effect of his environment and start creating a new reactive mind which would be loaded with mainly service facsimilies, IMHO. Most OTVIIIs are missing the lower OT sections which are loaded with thetan-enhancing drills that would make one very strong and I think this is the major missing link.
    ML Tom

  2. I have not one thing to add and you don’t need my acknowledgement. Still I feel compelled to add my “right on”.

    The future is bright! Made brighter by my freedom from the past.

  3. I transcend every time I say the words, “end of session” and close the folder.

  4. I loved this chapter as well.

    It aligns with my belief that a flexible mind is a mind in touch with reality. A rigid mind is usually missing the present moment.

    Without an ability to view what is — daily life just becomes robotically going through motions thinking one is awake and aware … all the while pulling his entire past (and past identities) along with him … nearly always missing the present moment.

    Thanks again Marty. Great summation of OT VIII


  5. Great post. Maybe your best and most important ever.

  6. I choose to transcend. After all, the bridge to freedom takes one to FREEDOM, that is, free from fixed rules, sign posts, fixed ideas and fixed anything else. From this point (OT8) was is free to be, do have whatEVER one chooses.

  7. Gerhard Waterkamp


  8. Thanks Marty for finally saying what I have long suspected was true. I am tremendously relieved, an unexpected reaction to this data.

    I asked myself, why so relieved? I think because my win after so much bridge, also including L rundowns, was I really didn’t want and didn’t like introspective processes. Yet as we all know they continued. Including Dianetics redo and endless FPRD Sec Checks.

    The amount of misemotion I experienced in my last couple of years “doing the bridge” was equal to or greater than my case before clear. Everything from not calling my FNs, auditing engrams after OT, and huge unnecessary ethics cycles. Not to forget crush reg cycles and being sold books by my own auditors.

    But today, you said something so true I feel I have blown all the charge on this. Thanks!!
    I can move on. I can be happy with my wins, which were many. I am looking forward. I am continuing my search for truth and feel I made a major step forward.

    I have only one question. Why does the bridge chart go so high? Why did LRH promote and lecture on the upper levels? How was the promise of delivering these upper levels by the universe corp ever going to happen?

    I would live to hear from you on this.

    Thanks again. Blessings to you.

    A fellow OT

  9. Best comprehensive explanation.

  10. Very thanks for sharing your own viewpoints, you enrich me while making me questioning my own. ML.

  11. It’s a helluva lot of devotion to make it all the way through the materials of OT VIII, The original OT levels, the L’s and Graduate Class V.

    I don’t regret any of it. Enormous wins.

    I would like to present my own version of OT IX, which one can do only after completing all of the above:

    Spend 1/2 hour per day doing TR 8 until the damn ashtray either moves or completely disappears.

    Spend the rest of your day doing whatever the hell you want.

    End of OT IX.

  12. This I an area where I agree with Marty 100%. When I read in his book that there was nothing past OT 8 it bothered me a little. I realized then that I had been relying somewhat on the idea That there would always be future levels on the bridge. Even though I had felt for years that I, personally was in an ever expanding condition, I needed to take a higher level of responsibility in this area.

  13. Marty,

    I love your ideas of continuing the search for truth as a continual goal. Isn’t it interesting that the corporate Scientologists attack you for doing exactly what Ron always did? That speaks volumes about how far off their path they have fallen. It’s as though they believe, “We don’t need to search for truth any more. Ron did that for us.”

  14. I agree Mat.

    Thanks Marty.

    “Armed with the knowledge of history, our future will be what we make of it.”
    – Tom Chatham

  15. Dear Marty. Thank you for your post.

    Quoting from your earlier blog subject : “Judgment traps you within the limitations of your comparisons. It inhibits freedom.” OT 8 or any levels beyond or before that (in terms of “Corporate Scientology”) are similar in this regard. Ron bravely attempted to codiy what is already here as best he could in order to help us “see” or “remember” who we are on a gradient. Unfortunately this also resulted in the birth of “Corporate Scientology” and became a judgment in itself and has inhibited a great many freedoms. This was not what Ron intended.

    So what if he did not codify what is beyond OT 8 in his lifetime? We know what we know. He brought it to the surface, so to speak. Frankly, we are not interested in the codification, we are interested in essence of life (or life force itself) and recognition or re-remembrance of who we are. Ron simply tried to help us direct our attention to what is inherent in all of us. That is all there is. Anything else is alter-is.

  16. After having completed the original OT8 in 1988, Mr. Miscavige called me
    back to Flag to re-do his own personal version of the OT7 and OT8.
    I refused to follow him because I had met him personally a few years
    earlier. My conclusion was that he was far too naive to lead
    During my D of P interview, I expressed my own view which is similar to
    the posting by Mr. Rathbun. The level is what it is and the ‘secret’ is not
    a ‘secret’. After about twenty minutes of going around the bend with the
    D of P, I was asked to leave Scientology. Well, I had already departed
    scientology but only agreed to the D of P interview after a polite request
    by a C/S. I left with a huge smile on my face and felt the
    greatest relief possible at my new freedom. I went to Coachman Park
    in Clearwater and saluted the grass and the Sun!

    George M. White

  17. Perfectly stated. Waiting or needing another OT level is an example of being at effect, in my mind. Nothing “OT” about it.

  18. For me LRH put together a technology that put me on a path to discover for myself what was/is true for me. Upon walking that path many discoveries about myself and others were made. Makes perfect sense to me that LRH stopped where he did. He did mankind a favor by allowing man to make his own discoveries not become part of an encapsulated group mentality!!!

    Corporate Scientology will end just because it will!!

  19. I know the wins I have and used them. I kept watching as the bridge changed and I realized that I was not PTS. Although I have not gone clear I still look forward to it making it happen. ARC Bill Dupree.

  20. Somewhere in the red volumes, Hubbard wrote that the upper OT levels are actually contained in the book “Creation of Human Ability”, and that the current bridge is just a prerequisite.

    So I would expect that beyond OT8, the next step would be that book.

    “Be three feet back of your head …”

  21. These are my favorite kind of posts–the ones that describe the difference between the real thing and what it has been turned into over the years.

    The thing that got me to really see and confront the changes, come to terms with it and realize my goals I set when I first started in 1973 were never going to be achieved now that I was in $cn Inc.—was the real LRH training I did in my first few years. That is what made it crystal clear to me that stuff was going horribly wrong.

    With the continual information being put out as to the differences between the original, workable technology vs. the alterations and their disruptive, harmful and evil effects, I hope that the rest of the captives will be able to sort through this and at the very least remove their support of the suppressive group.

  22. Yvonne,

    You just voiced my exact cognition that I had after my struggle to decide to leave the Co$. “The future looks very bright when you know that you are free.”

    =) I love it!

  23. This chapter certainly explained the why on recycling the OTVIIIs back onto basics and objectives. The last thing that DM wants are OTs going out the top and on a full blown create.

    The night I finished OTVIII I was on the bridge of the ship and it was about 1:00AM on a moonless starlit night. Truly beautiful. I was simply being there comfortably perceiving.

    Two clear perceptions came to pass. The first was that I was a prisoner to my own beliefs and I needed to inspect what those beliefs were. The second related to our species responsibility with respect to all living things. We are clearly living beyond our means at the expense of other life forms.

    I relished the opportunity to get to work creating on solutions. I had no idea that it would lead down the rabbit hole to CO$. I am glad it did and it is great to be among true friends again! I’m looking forward to meeting each one of you!

  24. plainoldthetan

    Here’s my $0.02.

    First, promising what you can’t deliver is the black face of the coin opposing HCO PL 21 November 1968 I SENIOR POLICY (“We always deliver what we promise.”)

    Second, keeping the highest-echelon parishioners hanging on for what you can’t deliver is the evil blackened crust over that black-faced coin.

    Third, spending millions of dollars to put on an Int Events five times a year in which you openly lie about the imaginary expansion of a church is the neutron-star core-stuff enveloping the encrusted coin.

    These poor people who hang on hoping for OT IX or a world where everyone can go Clear in their neighborhood are in for a long wait.

    At some point they’ll realize people have been been totally banned from those games. Including themselves.

    And that point is when they’ll be as free as one can be on Earth.

  25. David Lingenfelter

    “I have seen subjectively and objectively that this is precisely the product produced by corporate Scientology. They create people who have devoted their entire adult lives to studying and auditing to achieve the ability of ‘knowing how to know’ (the very definition of Scientology), only to wind up feeling lost, abandoned, and powerless to do anything except to slavishly kowtow to a fascist regime, in hopes it will dispense the next carrot of wisdom.”

    You said a mouthful there. It went off the rails earlier and created some slaves.


  26. Thankyou for the truth Marty.
    Great Post.

  27. I’m not arguing or shocked, but are you 100% sure? What you are saying is that none were found at that time and place.
    How can yo ube sure they werent found later, or in another place. Let’s say Miscavige did find levels. Is it possible he did not reveal them to you?

    Can anyone confirm that LRH described the EP of OT8 as “Cause Over Live”? I have the idea that OT8 is pretty messed up and not as LRH intended, or even entirely false.
    I get that there was the “old” OT levels, and then after LRH died that area of the bridge was changed into an arrangement that doesnt product the expected results. I do not wish to invalidate anyone, or the status of “OT”, but I have known enough people who have done “New” OT8 to know they are not “Cause over Matter, Energy, Space and Time” or Life. Some of them are nice I guess. It seems like people who did the older OT levels have something going on, I’m not sure how to describe it- but it’s a good thing that I wouldnt mind having. I suggest that people who have done the new OT8 have not done OT8 and people who did the older OT8 may not have done what we think of as OT8. We might need to clarify and rethink our idea of “OT8” as it may have been a false idea created by Miscavige. At the least it was not delivered as advertized. What you wrote here is valuable as it helps to clear things up, but I dont think it’s the final word on this.

  28. Let me change my last sentence to: What you wrote here is valuable as it helps to clear things up, and I hope more people who were there, do at some point reveal their first-hand information so the full story can be pieced together.

  29. Marty, I loved this excerpt from your book. Although I had already read the book, I totally blew down and got a persistent FN from reading this post and the comments that followed. My own responsibility level has risen as a result of all this. No longer do I consider myself “a broken piece” who needs to be fixed with “the next level” or “more auditing” or “OT VIII, IX , X ” and on. That is just a victim viewpoint. It is up to each of us to take what we gleaned from LRH and run with it. Your analogy to the Zen master who is asked the question and he answers, “I thought you were a Zen…” is so spot on. Ron did say something like for God’s sake create a better Bridge. I take that to mean we buildon his foundation and keep searching, learning, discovering and creating. We are the thetans, the energy production units, the creators, the makers of space. Splurge on it! Thank you for enlarging my viewpoint and responsibility level Marty. Your words have provoked much in me.

  30. One Point Won

    I loved both of your books, Marty; thank you. I highly recommend them to everyone, in and out of the church.

    On a new slant on books, I especially loved reading yours on my Kindle, so I could immediately touch any word I didn’t understand and its definition would instantly pop up so I could clear it. I could even touch the definition twice to get the full derivation, or touch any word within the definitions, and instantly clear those as well.

    After so many of us waited DECADES for the Church of Scientology to wake up to the benefits of the computer age and become a leader in producing electronic books, David Miscavige purchased a printing press.

    In comparison, after just a few years of your being “out” of the church, you quickly wrote wonderfully informative and charge blowing books and you intelligently included e-Book technology!

    Hugs to you, Marty!

  31. Loved that part of the book.

    If there was something foreseen after OT VIII, I think LRH would have published a different grade chart that showed something “TBA” might “live” up there — just like the grade and classification charts from years ago had OT VIII and other higher levels with a note saying not released yet or something like that.

    But logically, once one has achieved a state of cause over MEST and life (theta), what would be the next step? Turning water to wine 101? Or would it be to live fully and in the present moment helping others?

  32. Gern Gaschoen

    LRH re-built the Bridge a couple of times, which means it was crossed .. a couple of times. Each time, he added another express lane. The fact of the matter is, you can go OT on as simple a process as ARC Straightwire, if your case is in good shape, you’ve done as much training as you can, and so on. LRH made as many paths across the Bridge as a man could in one lifetime ..

  33. OT 9 and levels beyond may involve passing OT 1 to 8 and than making it for yourself.

    Just Saying

  34. The thing that call my attention is that this is again you marty, coming and saying that there is nothing after OT-8, coming in direct contradiction to several references by Ron where he refers to material beyond OT-8…..and basically calling Ron Hubbard a liar about that, and people here saying,.. “Oh, well, then is aaaiiiiiiiiigght. IU mean, is marty telling us, guys”

    One of the reasons the scientologist did falled in the soup is because of blind obedience to people in positions of autority and implicit conection to hidden lines of comunication.

    The only lines I have are to Ron. I did not have one to Pat Broeker, nor Miscavige, not Ray Mitoff, and honestly I dont give a rat ass for their opinions.

    And yours, well, I take it with a grain of salt and put it at a side to look at it when more information becomes available, until that, your opinion about the existence of materials beyond OT-8 is just that. Oh, certainly, thank you for sharing it, It is very nice from you.

    I tend to believe to Ron more than yopu in this one, but that is only me.

    I would love to see more people question and being more willing to inspect things before towing aparty line, but habits are dificul to break, once a cult member allways a cult member, or at least a very entusiastic blind follower I guess.

    Nevertheless, again, marty; thank you for sharing your opinion about the existence or not of materials form Ron Hubbard beyond OT-8.

  35. I still believe there are fixed rules, just don’t hurt another on purpose and if you do make sure you really believe in your “point in space’ because one should not denie or supress him or herself.

    I do believe in Jezus as an Atheist, because I “know” he was a rightious dude.

    much loce Cat daddy

  36. I was off doing something else and I realized I was a bit off here. “Cause Over Life” is the OT7 EP. I forget what the EP for OT8 is supposed to be. I think it says “Handles the reason for amnesia on the whole track” or some such thing. To me “Cause Over Life” would mean something like an individual had no more “case” and was able to act and create unrestrained in any way along all dynamics, and such an individual would be pretty powerful. Whether they used that power or how they used it would be up to them. To me that is something different than full OT.

  37. Why is there so much emphasis on the ‘upper’ ethereal echelons of being? People reach OT VII and VIII and demand to go further. Howabout enhancing their existing abilities? Yes everyone can run but it takes practice to be a olympic athlete. Why not focus on being an OT olympic with what one has? LRH has given us a way to become ourselves. How about becoming MORE ourselves, becoming more OT?

  38. I did the whole bridge up to OTVIII.
    I don’t think new OTVIII is an OT level or never was intended to be one (maybe an rundown, maybe incomplete).
    There is no “truth reveal” nor any “handling of amnesia”. Any of you guys who did new OTVIII handled whole track amnesia or had any truth revealed? Make yourself known if so!
    Its all lie. Broeker or someone else most probably wrote “From clear to eternity”. There is no such a thing as “real OT levels” as opposed to pre OT levels. It was bullshit invented to prevent customers to leave the church in 1982/83 to go the “squirrels” carefully created by the fascist action of declaring most of the old timers.
    “Truth revealed” was a carrot dreamed up to keep customer in the shop, that they don’t go to Mayo at this time.
    Then they had to compile something which would fit the title they dreamed up. That is I think the correct sequence of events which took place.
    “From clear to eternity” and all subsequent RJ are utterly false including RJ 38 “The Proof” .
    “From clear to eternity” contain threats which are not LRH style. “The proof” is an ad for RTC.
    Listen to a real LRH tape and compare.
    We have been had for the last 30 years.
    But there is still the “old” OT levels, they can be done. At least they are handwritten by Ron.
    Yes those level OT9 to 15 don’t exist, and OT8 is a kind of mixture, with some workable process but full of out-points.
    By the way Not’s and Solo Nots where never intended by LRH to be some OT Levels. The nomenclature to call them OT levels was not on any LRH issues.
    We are just alone with the existing tech. Building a better a bridge is up to us, if we still want to.
    The myth will vanish but the tech and the philosophy will stay.

  39. Well said old chap. I think anyone who “needs” more auditing after ot 7 or 8 or even much lower levels is just being their own case and never understood what the hell was going on anyway.

  40. Captain Obvious

    Agreed Michael. One of the most basic abilities of self control is to regulate what one puts into one’s mouth.

    Let’s take a look at the top leaders of this movement from the beginning to present day regarding the most basic of Scientology principles, the cycle of action. And let’s look at it regarding two orally transmitted addictive substances:

    LRH: LIfe Long Smoker (Start. Change. ….ADDICTION )
    Capt. Bill Robertson: Lifelong Smoker (Start. Change ….ADDICTION)
    John McMaster (Clear #1): Died from cirrhosis of the liver because he could not stop drinking. (Start. Change, …ADDICTION)
    Jack Horner (Founder of Dianology worked very closely with Hubbard): Lifelong Smoker. Got emphysema – kept smoking in spite of a HUGE reason to quit. (Start. Change …ADDICTION)
    Marty Rathbun: Lifelong Smoker – According to a Recent Interview has switched to e-cigs. (Start. Change …ADDICTION)
    David Miscaviage: Smoker and Rumored Alcoholic (Start, Change …ADDICTION)

    None of these TECH LEADERS (whether or not one agrees in their interpretations of the tech) have been able to do the MOST BASIC element of self control regarding the cycle of action and a basic addiction. None could STOP their hands from picking a substance up and STOP their hands from putting that addictive substance into their mouths.

    One need not advance to OTVIII until one can truly START. CHANGE. and STOP.

  41. I do believe given time and health no SP’s on his lines LRH would have come up with more, but I also believe he did not from this data from Marty which I read herein even before the book. It’s hard to question this on scene authority and because of that it’s a hard pill to swallow at first, but it makes sense knowing what we now know.

    A friend once told me that if OT takes a hundred lifetimes, it’s still hell of a bargain.

  42. This excerpt from the book, particularly the last paragraph, expressing Marty’s attitude towards LRH and Scn, sums up what I have understood him to also be expressing lately on this blog.

    From my point of view this is the basic viewpoint of LRH himself and of Scientology itself. Even as regards the admin tech, when I read the policies on the theory of admin and how policy is to be INTERPRETED, I don’t see a problem. In fact, even with regard to continued research and improvement on the tech, I believe the Scn principles are there to do so. KSW 1 is a valuable policy if applied with the whole body of knowledge in mind.

    It seems to me that with both tech and admin there has to be (1) a conceptual understanding and (2) an alignment of the basic intention of those who apply these techs to the basic intention of the philosophy itself. After that, it’s just a matter of working it out together, sometimes through trial and error. There will always be disagreements and struggles in trying to do so, but that’s just part of the game where you don’t (and can’t) just have fixed mechanical rules – you have beings. The orgs failed miserably on this but maybe it doesn’t always have to be that way. There are so many LRH quotes that apply to all this but here is a good one:

    “The more thetan you have present, the less policy you need and the better things run. Only a thetan can handle a post or a pc. All he needs is the know-how of minds as contained in Scientology. That was all he ever lacked. So, given that, sheer policy is poor stuff as it seeks to make a datum stand where a being should be. That’s the whole story of the GPM’s. So why not have live orgs?” (HCO PL 23 Oct 63 “Refund Policy”)

    I guess my main point is that we as Scientologists do have “the know-how of minds” and that should be the basic agreement that enables us to work together and carry forward our purposes.

  43. Chrismann9,
    You are on the right track with your analysis. I can honestly say that
    I did a version of OT8 in 1988 which is much longer than the
    current version. Miscavige got his hand into the cookie jar and
    truncated the level to suit his own fancy. When I was asked to
    leave scientology in 1988, the D of P told me point blank that
    Mr. Miscavige -the COB- was “extending the research of the OT levels”
    She expressed a greater faith in him than the departed Ron Hubbard.
    George M. White

  44. Seems like participating in the reformation is OT IX. Dealing with the kool-aide addicts is like trying to get that damn ashtray handled!

  45. Captain Obvious

    Oh, I forgot. The late Alan Walters was morbidly obese. His addiction was food. (START. CHANGE … ADDICTION)

  46. I do not think people can transcend or move on if they can not look.

    For those hung up in any part of this game, for those still creeping around like soldiers and police with the purpose to harm attack and suppress, for Karen Pouw , James Lynch, the O.S.A. spies and the paranoid staff caught between a rock and a hard place, for those still trying to “figure it out” or “pull themselves together”, I forward this simple advice:


    Reference: Lecture 16, Feb, 59

    Information: This is a process to address the problem of not-ising. When a person can confront something he longer has to not-is it. A process can be run of: “Recall a time when you thought something bad was unimportant.” That command runs all by itself, but can be combined with” “Recall a time somebody else thought something bad was unimportant.” And you will run the newspapers off the case!


    The command is:

    “Recall a time when you thought something bad was unimportant.”

    Run this command over and over; getting the preclear to tell you what he recalled each time. Run to end phenomena.

    The second command is really not essential, but if the first command seems to run down or something bad happens. switch to:

    “Recall a time somebody else thought something bad was unimportant.”

    Perhaps then the world will not have to sit and watch the Church of Scientology in a wild dramatization of NOT IS as people come forward with their hearts on their sleeve and hold up the truth of the matter.

  47. Tom Gallagher

    We’ve entered an era where there is going to be a vast ‘shit storm’ and purge amongst and within the whole of mankind.

    Guess what…

    The RCS’s shrinking minority, including the suck-ups and “Platinum” status seekers, are going to have their socks blown off.

    It’s because a of very necessary transition that’s is in process.

    An awakening is taking place on a mass scale.

    Lunatics like Miscavige and others are no longer in control. The longer they attempt to hold on, the more pissed we get.

    Thus, we are in the endgame.

  48. I felt this way after OT III, especially after doing OT IV. I said to myself (and to the C/S) – “Wait a minute? This case is gone. We are we going there again?” So, live life.

  49. This is very true Marty, and I thought it was a very interesting part of your book. It was surprising to see that there were no more OT levels documented. But it makes sense. Stick a fork in it! I mean, I was a trained Class VI when I did OT III (and I was glad every day that I was, believe me). I audited it, and when I attested to it, I meant what I attested to. I scoured the case very clean, and it changed my life. I never thought of it until way later, but at that point, I was over the bridge. And my life only went up from that point on.

    This statement of yours to Transcend is very true. You are infinite, and life is infinite, but Scientology (and any subject) is finite. And at some point, your infinity dwarfs the finite. You can choose to move on in life, and you can choose to help others achieve the same plateau. But no matter what, life does not stop when you cross the bridge. Quite the opposite.


  50. Love it! Works for me.

  51. “And so the corporate Scientologist never learns to walk the walk. Instead, he learns to stand compliantly in leg shackles and talk the Scientology Inc. talk.”

    It really should say “many corporate Scientologists…”

    For it seems to me that there must be others like me, walked the walk anyway but didn’t talk about it inside the cloistered halls of the corporate Church where its “all business” and it had better be “Church business.” Don’t forget that there are those of us who managed to maintain close ties with family, friends and working associates outside of the Church. I sure did.

    Then again, perhaps I never was a “corporate Scientologist.”

  52. David St Lawrence aka oldauditor

    Marty, there are a growing number of us who have had the cognition that freed us from the shackles of a bridge designed by others. We have been working together to pool our knowledge and do original research.

    The test of any spiritual technology is whether it provides benefits that the preclear needs and this is described in the wonderful “Service” policy. It definitely appears that there are many ways to achieve enlightenment, not just one.

    A true technology evolves and I am glad to see that you are continually evolving also. I wish you the bright future that comes when you chart your own course.

  53. I have not done OTVIII, but I do remember reading the “abilities gained” column of the grade chart in the 1970’s before the level was released.
    For the State of Clear it said:
    “Total Cause Over Mental Matter, Energy, Space and Time”.
    However, for OTVIII, the ability gained was described as:
    I remember thinking, “wow!, what a great state of being from which to approach existence and life that would be! What a lot of things one could learn and do and what wonderful games one could play from that state of being. What a great place to start from to build an truly OT civilization.”
    Lots of space to “walk one’s walk”.
    And I also I noticed that the EP was altered later a couple of times since on subsequent revisions of the grade chart. Does anyone else recall this earlier grade chart?

  54. Thats right. I dont think you can really understand what any of the EP’s mean until you have it, but that one is very vague. It sounds interesting though.

  55. Very very theta Newcomer 🙂

  56. I havent done any version so anyone who has done any of the OT8’s knows more about it than me and should take my comments here as my opinion which has been known to change and rarely reaches absolute correctness.

  57. Yes, Marty. In essence, what LRH has given us is “A handful; of leaves”. As in Buddhism:

    The Blessed One was once living at Kosambi in a wood of simsapa trees. He picked up a few leaves in his hand, and he asked the bhikkhus, ‘How do you conceive this, bhikkhus, which is more, the few leaves that I have picked up in my hand or those on the trees in the wood?

    ‘The leaves that the Blessed One has picked up in his hand are few, Lord; those in the wood are far more.’

    ‘So too, bhikkhus, the things that I have known by direct knowledge are more; the things that I have told you are only a few. Why have I not told them? Because they bring no benefit, no advancement in the Holy Life, and because they do not lead to dispassion, to fading, to ceasing, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. That is why I have not told them. And what have I told you? This is suffering; this is the origin of suffering; this is the cessation of suffering; this is the way leading to the cessation of suffering. That is what I have told you. Why have I told it? Because it brings benefit, and advancement in the Holy Life, and because it leads to dispassion, to fading, to ceasing, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. So bhikkhus, let your task be this: This is suffering; this is the origin of suffering; this is the cessation of suffering; this is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.” –[Samyutta Nikaya, LVI, 31]

    What we do with it is up to us…

    “The highest manifestation of life consists in this: that a being governs its own actions. A thing which is always subject to the direction of another is somewhat of a dead thing.” –St. Thomas Aquinas

  58. It reads, Marty, as a further declaration and clarification of your own independence. Seems to me scientology came to be a place where many used LRH as their surrogate thetan…. the default guy to go to, to make sense of life and its confusions…. which was not discouraged by him or the organization. When in doubt “do what Ron says.” And if he doesn’t say, then imagine what he would say. It worked for me for a time in varying degrees. It is not surprising that Miscavige worked his way to hold a similar place in the hearts and minds of the true believers even as the empire implodes.

    Fortunately, it doesn’t take being OT8 or clear or any contact with scientology at all to come to the realization that you are the navigator of your own life. I would say it is a natural milestone in life…. that some reach with grace, some with struggle, and some not at all… at least for this life. In our culture it is sometimes called the midlife crisis–the end result being the individual is living on his own terms and detached from the imprinting of family and society. When one has arrived there is a return of innocence, available to self and perceived in others. The criticism of others abates. It is truly growing up.

    Scientology has always been a paradox: it speaks of freedom and the return to one’s true nature while at the same time giving explicit directions on how to achieve it. Like a zen koan. What I get from your recent postings is the idea that people can wean themselves from certain fixations, well drilled in, inherent in the scientology culture. Many who’ve read this blog have…. and that is part of what brings me back to it: seeing the change and seeing folks re-writing their own lives.
    I doubt I would have ever gotten involved with scientology if it were merely a self help group. The myth of the perfect tech that would deliver me to god knows where… some exalted state of knowing… and the only group that could and would free the universe….that’s the story I needed to be hooked. I don’t think I “needed” scientology but it was the route I took for a time and I came to my own place of realizing I could take what I wanted and leave the rest. That I could know on my own terms.

  59. Captain Obvious,

    Obviously bodies and what gets put into them is very significant to you.

    What do you put in your body? I mean, obviously, that others can see, so we can corroborate, you know?

  60. I feel bad for those who did not duplicate Marty’s writing and have actually concluded that OTVIII is the “end of the road.”

    And it may be so in the church…

    But that’s not what I read that Marty said(!)

    If you have not picked up the cans in one hand and put yourSELF in session – (not just auditing some other-determinisms and your ruds here and there) – then you still have not fully explored your own “terra incognita” – I don’t care what case level your certs say you’ve done.

    For one thing, LRH said in HCOB 28 SEP 63 – ACTUAL GOALS – that (end of bulletin) “THE PC’S OWN GOALS AND ITEMS ARE THE FINAL ROAD TO OT.” (ALL-CAPS in original HCOB)

    He also mentions in a Class VIII course lecture, as I recall, that ‘the same basics and fundamentals apply up here at OTVIII as they do down here on the lower Bridge – you run out the ARCx…’

    (yes, LRH was piloting a version of OTVIII as early as 1968 – see the Otto Roos story)

    Grade II (overts-withholds) was then taken to “erasure” by such deep-cutting rundowns as the L’s and then other, more exportable rundowns like Expanded Dianetics and FPRD to run basic evil purposes to erasure.

    The same approach would apply to the other major areas of case:

    ARC Straightwire – Self-Analysis (just as you once did for this lifetime, applied to the Whole Track of existence, you would eventually accomplish the OT VIII EP of “Blow of Whole Track Amnesia” for the being – I know of one lower Bridge pc who could access anything – her recalls checked out in the real universe – in any recent or distant life – and ran heavy implants during her NED – she even correctly told me the color of the uniforms in the big secret incident – she’s way ahead of that game and hasn’t even started her solo!)

    Grade 0 – Communication – as per above – and also on an advanced Grade III where you handle communication breaks on a deeper level. This is where you would want to develop telepathic and distance communication ability by running certain processes or drills deeper than you did first time around – (see for example, Les’ OT IX idea above). Some of the ORIGINAL OT levels (removed in 1980 from the line-up, but now in the public domain) deal with these extended communication abilities. How about an “ability to communicate any-WHERE on any subject?” I’ll bet you that “OTs” could run hours of “From where could you communicate to a …” until exterior and abilities regained.

    Grade I – Help – LRH’s 1960 HCOBs on HELP strongly allude to areas where Help processing was making OTs and he tells you how to do it there (not done on the Grades!) – these can be run solo with ease.

    Grade I – Problems – see LRH reference above – own Goals – GPMs have been made safer and easier to map out, by bold pioneers researching outside the church, and much of that tech is available free. Follow Dianetics pioneer Dennis Stephens’ research advice and don’t put so much emphasis on “opposing” goals which is apparently what ‘wrapped the whole thing around a pole’ in the early 60’s.

    Grade II – if you can’t get the L’s and you’re exhausted from out-tech FPRD in your eligibility cycles, you can always run Grade II deeper on your Whole Track, and even eventually accomplish the same result the L’s do (with their faster, more direct technique). And your results should be more stable as you will be running more thoroughly.

    Grade III – this one isn’t even complete as written on the lower Bridge, in my opinion. ARCx processes were ordered by LRH in his 27 MAY 63 HCOB to be developed: “We need some repetitive processes today…” But last I checked there were still only 2-3 and they were already given in that same HCOB! ARCx’s precede this force universe by eons – and they precede that force-bank case, which NED frees up making ‘Clears.’ These have for sure never been fully handled in the church line-up. There is definitely more to do here and it can be run deep into the Whole Track of your existence to full erasure if you are alert to picking up the basic postulates holding the ARCx chains in place.

    Grade III – Change – seems to be well-covered and again, many of these processes can be applied to Whole Track.

    Grade IV – I am certain that you have seen “advanced OTs” with “no case” making others wrong (a product of ‘Service Facsimiles’) in and out of the church – right here on this blog! Man can’t be trusted with justice until he’s handled at least a few of the deeper, more insidious ones that often get missed in the stifling environment of the church, or even by church-trained auditors on the outside who still haven’t fully unwound and re-trained themselves in their own, less suppressive environment. These Service Facsimiles come off in droves as you sharpen your solo auditing skills and apply a little self-honesty about what is sitting there.

    And if you can’t get anyone to C/S you on this (because their idea of “advanced” auditing is “OT40” of the freezone orgs – which may well have validity, for all I know), then study the C/S series, follow the principles, and do that yourself, too.

    Out-tech? Well… but you have “no case” right? And you attested to “cause over life”? …I’m being cynical here, to make a point. The church introverted us into terror at the very thought of “handling our own cases” despite the fact that was done by advanced students on themselves in the 1950’s with even more advanced processes – all without a second thought!

    (you could study those early ACCs and work on those OT processes, by the way – most are far from “introspective” in nature)

    I could go on. The point is, if you want to tackle it this time around, there’s more to do. You can always invoke the ‘Rights of a Thetan’ not to participate in a game not of one’s own choosing, and opt to sit out of that game as long as you want.

    But to sit there and call it a ‘Done,’ as a personal exercise in flow zero (to self) “thought-stopping,” reminds me that we should have gotten for auditing, a comparable datum to that first barrier to learning:
    “Knows it All Already.”

    And just because David Miscavige is forcibly running pre-OTs back through his money machine, does not mean we should go the other extreme and develop an allergy to re-visiting certain processes that are not limited in application.

    I am not a “highly-classed auditor,” by the way. Just someone who has freed up my thinking in the subject – who gave myself permission to look anywhere and everywhere including my own mind in formal solo session. And who – like Marty points out above – sees value in the OTHER guy’s cognitions. They are often pointers to new looks at the mind and the basics in the tech that can be applied to handling it.

    Scott Gordon
    Auditor Class 0+

  61. EnthralledObserver

    So… there are no further OT levels above 8… and their existence/development was a lie? So, who lied? Broeker… Miscavige… LRH?

    What do you make of these quotes?

    HCOB 30 Jul 73 “Scientology, Current State of the Subject and Materials”
    “There are perhaps 15 levels above OT VII fully developed but existing only in unissued note form, pending more people’s full attainment of OT VI & VII.” LRH

    HCOB 24 Jan 77 “Tech Correction Round-Up”
    “OT VIII has been in existence all those several years, and to it has been added a very large number of OT grades. None of them have been issued. Notes for all these grades are in existence.” LRH

    LRH ED 301 Int’, 17 Dec 78 “Ron’s Journal 30, 1978—The Year of Lightning Fast New Tech”
    “UPPER LEVELS. There are other OT levels above VIII but these will be released from time to time when people are ready for them. We’re already higher than Man has ever been and it can get quite stratospheric.” LRH

  62. Larry Wright, interviewing on the “Today” show said a gentle but profound statement.
    “The Church of Scientology has lost its way.”

  63. HCOB 27 SEPT 65 RELEASE GRADATION ADDITIONAL DATA, LRH has the R1 drills at Grade VIII for Operating Thetan.

  64. LOL
    ” One of the most basic abilities of self control is to regulate what one puts into one’s mouth”
    How simple – I just pinned it up on my notice board. Thx.

  65. First of all you’re talking about controlling bodies. What if someone simply didn’t want to quit? Ever met that person? George Burns smoked cigars daily to the ripe of old age of 98. A friend of mine quit in spite of the fact he loves tobacco. Where do those “types” fit into your hifalootin rationale about OT? Please nevermind, I’m just pointing out some inconsistencies, couldn’t stop myself.

  66. I really like the last paragraph too.
    To me it says that I can use Scientology when I need and want it. I could use it on others when I think that the situation fit. But if I am PTP’d with a home renovation project, maybe reading a book on remodeling might be a better fit than “order vs disorder”. We got it drilled into use REAL good, that this is a DEADLY SERIOUS activity. Well…It might be a serious situation but I don’t see that BEING serious has done us much good. I think it would be better to be flippant and work at it from a non serious approach. I think most people would prefer this.

  67. Jean-François Genest

    It makes total sense. Another one of those “Dahh, of course!” datum. The perpetuated lie(s) have as-ised. 🙂

    Infinity runs both ways [ -∞ past ↔ future ∞+ ]
    The Bridge is just a metaphor, a path out of the maze, a gradient scale to serenity. Once Clear on all 8 dynamics, a being can then operate serenely by itself, and BE, and create its own “next step” on the other side of the abyss, if it wants to.
    How many post-doctorate degrees does one need to study before one can start to PRACTICE?

  68. It’s funny you know Mr. White, a close friend of mine also did OTVIII in 88. And some other friends who did it then or soon after also. They were changed beings to my observation, and uncannily powerful thetans. I left that group form a decade and when I came back they had all redone VII and VIII and I noticed something (missing, not the same) I couldn’t put my finger on immediately… then I finally put it together. They simply no longer had that OT horsepower I had once observed. It’s really quite sad if I think about it.

  69. One lives in hope the original OTVIII material isn’t shredded or lost, but I haven’t heard either way. Anyone?

  70. Jean-François Genest

    From the “power vacuum” viewpoint/perspective, it makes total sense too why Brœker and Miscavidge would invent the illusions of more OT levels, in order to secure themselves a credibility from staff & publics (and avoid getting discovered & zapped) by pretending that LRH entrusted only them to the final portions of his research. Then the secret citadel was built in Hemet, CA. to enhance the illusion of esoteric sacredness.

    The proof is that David Miscavidge’s marketing scheme worked. He dictated what steps must be done in order to release the invented, prized jewels, and Scientologists got busy working for him. The fish bit on the hook, and he pulled hard (still continues to pull).

  71. This phenomenon has puzzled me since my early days in (Dn &) Scn (the early 80s). After reading LRH’s writings about ethics and the dynamics, I cognited that continuously taking care of (and trying to improve) my body health belongs to my 1st, 2nd & 3rd dynamics ethic. So, what I did (and keep doing it) is applying the Scn Ethic Conditions to my own “taking care of (and trying to improve) my body health”. The key is to have a good stat measurement. Since I have (university level) knowledge of data analysis and data modeling, I developed my own stat measurement.

    Overcoming an addiction is not a short term project, however I think that somebody applying the Scn Ethic Conditions, sooner or later will be able to overcome an addiction.

  72. Is the New OT-8 the same as the original OT-8 (back in 1980)? I suspect not.
    IMHO, regarding the top of the bridge, It seems to me that I heard somewhere that the last item to run out on the bridge would be Scientology auditing/control itself, as this was the last via on the road to total freedom. (I didn’t think too much of it at the time, but it stuck on the back burner anyway.)
    And before this, would be the e-meter, which is a via on a via – it reacts to your body which in turn reacts to you. (I know that for the most part, I don’t need a meter to tell me if something reads, or if I am f/n’ing – I know, and my body reacts. Actually, it reacts quite well, if you do not Q&A with it.)
    But between this and OT-8, there would be a few more steps needed.
    I don’t think that Ron was finished with his work, and he was prematurely stopped. (Pierre Ethier certainly has opinions on this one.)
    (I also think that DM was not acting alone to sabotage the bridge. I noticed that Black Nots did not get to go too far….. but this is off topic.)

  73. I just wanted to add two things to this.

    The first is something I mentioned before, which is that I consider myself a “post-Scientologist.” By that I mean that I feel I have taken what Scientology has to offer and built on it. To me, Scientology as a technology lays a nice foundation for life – provided it does not become your life.

    The second is that Scientology should be, and can be, very fun. It really is. Doing courses is fun. Auditing is fun (once you learn how). TRs are fun. Drilling processes are fun. Clay demos are fun. Passing Star-rate check outs are fun (do they even do this anymore?). Getting audited is fun. Co-auditing is fun. Tape plays are fun. Meter drills are fun. I had a blast.

    This is Scientology. It is a bunch of friends getting enlightened together. Having wins. Raising their awareness. Learning some really great stuff. Having a blast.

    I don’t know anyone who is upset about this. What people are upset about – David Miscavige, crush regging, child labor, The Hole, fawning over celebrities, “cold chrome steel,” and the RPF – well, that is not Scientology. It just isn’t. And I am glad to flush that out of my life.

    But I mean it. Scientology is a blast. I think we should remember that.

    Mark Patterson

  74. Tom, do you know where it says this: “Cause over Matter, Energy, Space and Time” regarding OT8? I don’t have red or green vols. Is it from a “Rons Journal”?
    On the Grade Chart it gives the name of OT8 as “Truth Revealed” and says “Handles the primary reason for amnesia on the whole track”.
    I’m just trying to sort out what is from church promo and what LRH actually said.

  75. Tom, you speak with utter certainty about a coming ‘shit storm’ and purge for all mankind,

    I am very cynical about unsupported fortune telling passed off as blunt truths. If there is any coming revolution based on the increased spread of information, I hope that it will also inoculate people against believing this kind of piffle.

  76. Regular Dog formerly Underdog

    Marty, this was another great section from Chapter 15 of your first book. I am glad you talked about this. I was present in the Palladium on Hollywood Blvd on that night in early 1986 when Pat Broeker talked about those OT levels above OTVIII he alleged existed. I’m so happy you give the data that you do and that you give your sources and experiences as well so that we can think and evaluate for ourselves.

  77. Kevin Bloody Mackey

    Really? For many years a lofty state of “Operating thetan” was alluded to in the CofS. Promo was sent out depicting a being exterior in space, references were made to remote viewing, x-ray vision, telekinesis and abilities that we’d had trillenia ago that were now lost. The state was described in great detail in many of LRH’s tapes. The bridge itself showed seven levels above OTVIII ending in “Power on all Dynamics” and “Total Freedom”. In the “Clear to Eternity” HCOB LRH told of the long haul above the ‘pre OT’ levels on the final band of case gain. I myself had my eye firmly on the ‘mountain’ for my 26 years in the Corporate Church of the Holy Ponzi Scheme. It kept me going for 15 years on the squirrel wheel to insanity called Solo Nots. When my wife attested before me and slumped into depression I hoped for many levels above VIII as I knew OT VIII didn’t address her difficulties or the ones I was facing.

    I have difficulty reconciling my personal experience with your post Marty. Obviously you were privy to more information than me, but Jeez, I wish I’d known that when I was doing ‘baby watch’ on type three OTs.

    I’d have thrown in the towel years ago. It really hurts to hear that there was nothing above OTVIII, even within anyone’s delusions.

  78. Didn’t quite understand what you were saying, Cat Daddy.

  79. I agree with your analysis. Studying only ‘knowing how to know’, you could finish with knowing nothing about nothing. An empty shell.
    Scientology seems to be a form of epistemology and metaphysics. These are only branches of philosophy as a whole. It cannot be a replacement of the subject as a whole.

    As a lifelong student of philosophy I strongly oppose to what Hubbard says in your quote “…philosophy became completely abandoned as a subject …”.
    Reading and knowing what other philosophers have written is essential in studying philosophy. It inspires and gives one a basis to start from. As Hubbard himself said you have to know the nomenclature of an subject. With philosophy it is no different. Otherwise, why did he read himself so extensively Will Durant?
    But if your philosophy is that of ‘I have the truth, don’t look further’ (as Hubbard seems to be saying), then you are not practising philosophy.
    Laying the responsibility of what is happening with Scientology solely with the organisation and its management, is not correct in my opinion. The clues are in the writings. And your analysis gives another one.

    I have to say it is not the first time I encounter contradictions in his writings. Of course, they could be explained by a changing of mind or progressing of insights. Which in itself is positive of course. But it should have been explained.

    I think you do your clients a big service.

    If I might give a suggestion: I would start with the OT8 concepts (a.o. think for yourself). In other words: turn around the bridge. Because it isn’t a bridge, it is a circle. Also: the OT8 concepts are around for a long time (since the Veda’s). If people would only read for themselves … they wouldn’t maybe need the end of endless repairlists …to repair something that needed be audited in the first place. (That’s a bit harsh, I admit.)
    In the end Hubbard found what he knew all along. And so will or have we. But it is not necessary to follow the same road as Hubbard, let alone getting oneself swallowed up by the corporation. Because that’s a sure road into the jungle.

    (Any ‘strange’ wordings are due to the fact that English is not my first language.)

  80. Sorry, correction to the above: ”to repair something that needed not to be audited in the first place …”.

  81. Bravo, Marty! Couldn’t have written a better summary statement myself. Thank You.

  82. Joe Pendleton

    Michael, you make a tremendous point that I have been thinking about for some time as it applies to the CoS. The CoS could have been a perfect sort of “stage” or “training room” to practice not only OT abilities, but all the ideas LRH presented. It could have actually “drilled in” ARC, TRs, postulates, creating universes and many other skills and abilities (a bit like one does in Objectives, where in an artificial set-up one gets to run processes until one has huge cognitions – only in an org atmosphere, one would be able to practice and develop these abilities in a game involving numerous other beings and situations). But to do this, the group would have to have great respect for each individual as a postulating being and respect that individual’s points of view and decisions. Of course, that is the opposite of what the CoS does, as it is a highly authoritarian organization that uses force to ENforce ideas and decisions on beings. Talk about a great opportunity missed !!! BUT, one can still do on one’s own what you propose, to live out these abilities, practice them and gain more experience and certainty on them.

  83. There are more levels to do after OT8, I have no doubt about that. These levels are available or not, I don’t know, but me personally I look forward to them when LRH releases them. Certainly I will not look for or trust the CoS releases if they ever show up. I know what to do in the meantime.

  84. This is a brilliant article. Love it!

    One place where we are searching (Clearbird and myself) is “lost tech” as covered by LRH in his 50’s tapes. Re-integrating some essentials found there, Clearbird has produced a workable approach to “Actual GPM’s”, the part of the case that LRH saw as its core (but never completed the research on). Also, incident running has gained much from incorporating LRH principles found in these tapes. Maybe one day you have time to look at this work? See link below.

  85. You mean you didn’t make that ashtray stand up? Oh man. Puzzle solved. Now I get it why DM is sending people back to Objectives.

  86. This is how DM would want it done: You say jump, ashtrays says: “how high”? Jokes aside It seems DM is in for a never ending gold mine for reasons to send people back to redo stuff. All he has to do is take LRH’s words by rote instead of understanding them.

  87. Very informative post, thank you Marty. Very much in alignment with what I have just figured/still figuring myself. At some point on the bridge one (who listens) should realize that LRH parted from spoon feeding you. At that point you can either scream “bwah bwah bwah” or grab the damn spoon yourself.

  88. Forgive me if I am am chewing on a bone that is perfectly clear of soft tissue molecules, but here is another analogy: people who ask “just how deep does the rabbit hole go?” LRH might ask back: “just how deep do you want it to go?”

  89. I agree with you Tom ans I invite all OT to listen or read the PDC lectures. These materials are full of incredible drills for OT ! Anybody can obtain wonderful OT abilities just with the PDC datas.

  90. Captain, that was thought provoking. Millions of people successfully control their addictions with 12-step programs. What does a 12-step program have that scientology does not? One main component is a reliance on a “higher power”, which is part of a process where the individual becomes more humble. I suppose scientology would consider that a failure on the part of the individual to be at cause. To an extent that is true. But it works. And if one need to go from NY to LA in a hurry, one gets on a plane to fly there, as we dont fly like birds ourselves. So using a 12-step program is actually being cause over the situation. Its not an easy step to take. But its a vehicle that assists a person to control their lives.

  91. Archie, look at it like this. Hubbard was the Mother of Scientology. David came along as a nurse maid after the mother went off and was not able to produce any milk. So he got hung up in altered importance’s, like changing diapers.

  92. Laughter. Heidrun, you have given me a GPM. You said to see the link below. There is no link below.

  93. Suggested cram to David Miscavige

    Outness noted: Sadistic abuse and physical abuse. Acts like a gangster.

    Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex
    All Students
    All Preclears
    You are Clear. Well done and congratulations.
    This state has not previously been attained in this universe and we must all work towards getting
    more people – many more people – up to this level. Essentially, you are clear on the 1st dynamic and still
    have a lot of work in front of you to attain OT, which is to say the remaining dynamics, but nevertheless
    you will find you have many abilities hitherto undreamed of. An ethical code already exists for OT’s so
    at the state of Clear one should not assume one has a license to do just whatever one will. You still have
    the remaining dynamics to go so don’t use the abilities you have attained already to enslave others, or,
    indeed yourself.
    With freedom comes responsibility and with responsibility comes the need to assess one’s actions
    and to take only such actions as will do the greatest good over the greatest number of dynamics. So, the
    Policies of Scientology which have enabled you to reach the state of Clear still apply to all Clears. In fact
    they apply more because you have the reality of their value and the necessity of seeing that they are
    Those who have not yet attained Clear will be watching you with some awe, so you have the duty
    of setting an example of exemplary behavior in all aspects of your life. As a Clear you have no privileges
    beyond being declared Clear.
    As a result, bigger responsibilities will be given and expected of you so you must be prepared to
    responsibly educate yourself where necessary so that you can do whatever is assigned to you in a proper
    manner in keeping with the main goals and aims of Scientology.
    So for you there is no sitting down and resting on your laurels, no waiving of policy, no promiscuous
    2nd dynamic activities, no improper assumption of power, control or influence or assuming that you
    automatically know best in every situation. It is a crime to invalidate the State of Clear – see to it that you
    don’t do this in your conduct as a Clear, particularly as regards yourself. You still have the rest of your
    dynamics to go.
    You have now become more than ever a part of a team. Obsessive individualism and a failure to
    organise were responsible for getting into the state we got into.
    As soon as you have gone the rest of the way this will become abundantly plain.
    I expect and need your help to carry out the broad mission of de-contaminating this area of the
    universe. If you wish to help, your first duty is to protect the repute of the state of Clear by exemplary
    conduct. Your second duty is to attain OT as soon as possible. Your third, if you wish to help, is to become
    part of the endeavour to clean up this sector of the universe and make it safe not only for ourselves but the
    billions of others who have been harmed.
    As a Clear, you are welcomed and honoured. Don’t do anything that will wear out your welcome
    or bring dishonour on yourself or upon other Clears.
    Thank you for what you have done so far.
    Thank you for what you will do in the future.
    I know I can count on you.
    Copyright © 1967
    by L. Ron Hubbard
    L. Ron Hubbard

  94. I think your onto something. I wanted to comment on your thought about using scientology ethics conditions to solve addiction. 12-step programs have o/w write ups and amends in their later steps. I would suggest that some of the earlier steps about a higher power could relate to finding out who you are. Things that work, whether 12 steps or the ethics formulas, work because they follow some laws about our make-up.

  95. Brilliant Mark! …I’d like to add to the list of what people were and are upset about:

    1. The constant “state of emergency” atmosphere that exists in the Orgs.
    2. “Thursday at 2PM is coming!”

    A hugh crime….taking to fun out of Scientology.

  96. By the way, what we are doing right now IS OTIX. That LRH did not publish these upper levels is understandable.

  97. Marildi – Great post +1. I very much like what you say about intention and live beings. One thing people may not notice is that we are talking some serious philosophy here, notions we would have yawned at before running into Scn: the mind, abberation, the spirit, data about life, exterior, energy … before Scn I would have associated energy with a light bulb, and not much else. – Carcha.

  98. The original OTVIII is available, just Google it. If you have any further questions, I’d suggest you contact George White, who has previously offered his help on this subject.

  99. According to Pierre Ethier, Hubbard actually developed OT 9 to 15 aboard the Apollo. Class XII auditors have been shown these materials. The Ls are fragments of these levels.

    Could another class XII confirm?

  100. I recently read in an Eastern Religion book about the path to enlightenment. It said that one separates out from the body, the senses, and then thoughts…but when that is achieved, the journey has just begun.

    When at cause one has only stepped onto a new plane of existence and operation. We have to learn how to play the game and decide on what picture we will draw and what playground to play in. I for one had the tendency to yell out, “Mommy! What is next!”, although it only lasted a few minutes. We all have the responsibility to choose and create.

    Does one create love and joy or does one create darkness? Does one create to help others or does one use their skills to hold others down? Does one choose to see theta and goodness or does one choose to see hate and manipulation? Does one see beauty or see complexity? Maybe one chooses to see all but chooses to relish in love…your choice.

    Hubbard wasn’t perfect by any means, but he sure helped me along my journey. As to Marty’s last two blogs: I agree wholeheartedly in integration of the religious ideas and thoughts as well as the need to take responsibility as to what you do with your new found consciousness.

  101. transcend, great word , great write up and great comments.
    i have been fortunate,in 1970 at 22 years old i did clear thru ot7 in l.a.
    and a few years back i did with pierre 2 ot 8s the current church and the original, plus years ago i did the Ls.
    i wasnt going to post anything, went and took a sauna and was reflecting on my experiences and transcending.
    i got in to 1967, at a low point in my life 2 years in ca. doinf lots of acid,having no real purpose, i thought my life was over,there was no meaning. i fly to n.y.c. with the plan to go to india, a woman i know at F.I.T. art school suggest i take a comm course at the n.y. org around the corner from her school. i did. with in a year i did the dianetics course studied the axioms, and listened to the p.d.c. reel to reel the mission holder had who had worked with ron in 54 in phoenix and d.c. i put together a 1,000 and me and a girlfriend hitch to l.a. and i do power at asho, it was one of the best actions and really changed my life. i went and created about 10,000 and we went back to l.a for the ot levls this time i had a new vw wagon.
    i do solo ,clear, and thru ot7, i was so disappointed, i thought i would be walking on water, the previous winter i spent in key west i knew there was treasure off the coast, i wanted to go exterior and find it, i was 22 and naive.
    it was another low point in my life ot7 and i thought m life was over, such a failed purpose i felt about being ot, then on ot3 the ep said exterior with full perceptions,written in lrhs hand writing.
    between 71 and 73 hung around l.a. working at valor vitimins for 50 a week i signed i year contract at asho also 50 a week to be the class 8 sup. i didnt feel ot at all,they kept tryng to get me to join sea org. ended up driving to mexico and gautamala with a friend for an adventure and to get some space. a year later im in santa cruz opened crazy horse leather in 1 month i made 65 grand, doobie brothers, neil young are customers.i have a porsch, married, nice house with 10 acres, now im feeling more ot, i fly to l.a. and re do expanded grades,still wanting more. i go to flag when it first opens, put me on dianetics, went bad then they come out with ots dont do dianetics.
    i decide im done waste of money, now nots comes out,and i go to flag again, i was on the first purif at flag bill franks, me ,sandy wilhere, greg wilhere tells me lrh is csing it, i do it and am told just came out this week nots drug rundown have to do it before nots, i was the first or 2nd person to complete speak to the whole staff at muster sharing my wins, then do nots solo nots, then leave the church right after ron died.
    now one of the main reasons i left was not feeling there was total freedom,richard reese before he was senior cs came to l.a and handle people leaving he had a nice room at the hoilday in on highland where he audied me for a week for free, and he asked me why do i want to leave behind him he had on the wall the bridge poster , i pointed to it and said because of that bridge to total freedom was bull shit, that was my last auditing in the church.
    the auditing has sure helped me in my life andi continue to expand consciousness,that is what i work on daily in life.
    i call scientology spiritual materialism, you cant pay any amt. of money and think you will be ot. ot is in us all and we need to let it happen , each person finds it in different places, most people arent even interested in looking.

  102. That is exactly my observation too.

  103. Marty, I do appreciate you relaying factual information about no apparent written materials by LRH on OT levels above OT 8. Any philosophy or religion that does not relay the full truth about itself, looses it’s credibility as a source. The first rule as a source for truth is acknowledging the capabilities of your audience as an equal. We all have the capabilities & rights to hear all the truth LRH had to offer. The C of S has long fallen into the same abyss as many other philosophies & religions. The idea that scientologists are better, smarter, etc. is an elitism that runs all the way through it’s ranks; staff is smarter than public, SO is smarter than mission staff, DM is the smartest of them all! CRAZY!!!!! None of this elitism has ANYTHING to do with “transcending” as you put it. To follow elitism in any way is a mad spin off the track of truth. I would like to add “ascend” to your statement. If each one of us continues to ascend, the world will be a better place! Matt

  104. Ask around for the 1975 Grade Chart – the one that worked, the one that LRH left.

    The Grade Charts and OT levels were all screwed up in the late 1970’s, and a ton of people flocked OUT of the Co$ in the early 1980’s, so now you have two groups of ex-churchies, those who are familiar with the 1975 Bridge, and those who are familiar with the later ammended Bridges (with “More OT Levels”, and “**New** OT Levels”). Cause over MEST is the unreleased 1975 (“Classic”) OT VIII. Classic OT VII is: exterior at will with perceptics, rehabilitation of intention. By me, the 1980’s Bridge is in the same league with “Ideal Orgs” and “Up Your Status”. Maybe I’m on the wrong blog for this, but to me it seems pretty coincidental that:
    – LRH left the Co$ in 1976, and the Grade Chart changed
    – People no longer were realizing OT VII abilities
    – The Co$ killed the Mission Network (centralizing ‘authority’)
    – The LRH-named Senior C/S (David Mayo, the highest tech terminal) was forced to run around a tree in the middle of the desert, 12 hours a day, for SIX months
    – The “Dn Clear”, “Natural Clear”, and “I’m Clear Because I Wanna Be Clear” rolled out
    – Mayo later spun off to found the Advanced Ability Center offering the Bridge at literally one-tenth the price
    – The Co$ went absolutely bat-shit and sued Mayo for breathing their air, until the AAC finally won that 10-year farce bought by the Co$, but by then AAC had collapsed
    – You have the scene today where people think the 1980’s Bridge is a workable path to OT (in spite of painfully embarrassing evidence to the contrary).

    The Classic Bridge always included: Life Repair, Dianetics, Drug Rundown if needed, Grades, Expanded Dn, Power, R6EW, the Clearing Course, OT I-III, then NOTs was added prior to OT IV-VII, and the (released) Bridge ended with OT VII the EP of which was and IS exterior at will with full perceptics and the rehabilitation of intention. This line-up took well over 15 years of actual auditing experience with thousands of PC’s and auditors to put together. Logically, one would surmise that each of those steps should be done to its full EP. Classic OT VIII had a note ~~ to be released pending more people’s attainment of OT VII ~~. LRH was so right about not releasing OT VIII, so very right.

    The most lethal poison is often masked with the sweetest of nectars. When you have someone “Declaring Myself Clear!!” and not bothering to do any more Dianetics, Grades, Power, R6EW, and the Clearing Course, then you have [an idiot running right into a brick wall] who will most probably never develop OT abilities through Scn and will then say, “Scientology doesn’t work”.

    When Scn does not work, is when the processes are not run. Isn’t that astounding?

  105. The above may seem very invalidatory, so I want to add something that I do not mean to invalidate for the pure joy of it – I see major outpoints, which, if corrected, would make a lot of people a lot happier and more personally successful. I get frustrated trying to make the point about the Bridge. My own Personal Ethics is something I’m working on as hard as I work on anything, and I just realized that when one seeks to develop these, one runs smack into precisely the full force of an SP or SP’s on one’s whole track. SP’s operate on an inversion of Dynamics, with full knowingness. Personal Ethics is a key, critical, element to real freedom, and an SP attacks it. Sorry if I stepped on anyone’s toes. – Carcha.

  106. Marty, I have a lingering question on one sentence: “Hubbard had nothing intelligible to say about any levels that might exist above OT 8”

    Have you written anything on LRH’s mental state in the last part of his life you can refer me to? If not, can you tell us anything about it now?

    Your use of the word intelligible makes me feel like theres more information there.

  107. Some information to consider:

    “There are perhaps 15 Levels above OT VII fully developed but existing only
    in unissued note form, pending more peoples fill attainment of
    OT VI & VII.”
    – L Ron Hubbard

    I consider the following:

    1. NOTs (New Era Dianetics for Operating Thetans) is
    a series of confront and clean up processes of the
    entire R6 (Reactive Mind) on all Dynamics concerning
    survival and prepares a being to go from an ARC
    (Affinity Reality Communication) to KRC (Knowledge
    Responsibility Control) where on transcends survival
    and operates as creator and then keeping forms in
    existence at a pan-determined viewpoint. The actual processing
    of the Grade Chart is reverse ARC (Grades-Communication,
    Clear to OT III- Reality & OT III and above Affinity).

    2. OT VIII and above “15 Levels above OT VII” would be all the auditing
    processes or OT exercises codified and developed into processes
    from the early powerful materials covering the years 1951-1955.
    Here one would be running the KRC area and fully operating
    in the Philadelphia Doctorate Course mentioned dynamics of
    aesthetics and ethics.

    3. An actual full OT VIII would consist of the preliminary processes
    of “Truth Revealed” and followed processes and OT exercises to
    full end phenomena. This is how I view it.

    3. The current Grade Chart (OT IX Orders of Magnitude,
    OT X Character, OT XI Operating , OT XII Future) appear
    to be, after my research into these areas, nothing more than
    earlier Grade Chart processes and data and processes
    from 1951-1955;

    OT Course Section VIII
    ↑OT VII
    OT Course Section VII
    Rehabilitation of intention; ability to project intention.
    ↑OT VI
    OT Course Section VI
    Ability to operate freely as a thetan exterior and
    to act pan-determinedly; extends the influence of
    the thetan to the universes of others.
    ↑OT V
    OT Course Section V
    Re-familiarizes a thetan exterior with the physical universe;
    freedom from fixed introversion into MEST.
    ↑OT IV
    OT Course Section IV
    Certainty of self as a being.
    ↑OT III
    OT Course Section III
    Return of full self-determinism;
    freedom from overwhelm.
    ↑OT II
    OT Course Section II
    Ability to confront Whole Track.
    ↑OT I
    OT Course Section I
    Extroverts a being and brings about an awareness
    of himself as a thetan in relation to others and
    the physical universe.
    Clearing Course
    Ability to be at cause over mental matter, energy,
    space and time as regards the First Dynamic
    (Survival for Self).

    “Therefore one finds the higher levels publicly spoken of most frequently in the
    earlier books and tapes (between ’51 and ’55). In seeking full application to others
    and attainment for them of their potentials it was necessary to codify the
    materials and develop processes for them.”
    – L Ron Hubbard

    “If Scientology were used only on an educative basis, you
    would have to keep educating somebody in a relatively
    complex Scientological datum, repeatedly, over and over
    and over until the edge came off that much confusion.
    And then you would have to take a slightly simpler datum
    and educate him in this over and over and over and let
    him think about it and inspect it and so on until no more
    confusion or upset occurred with the datum.

    And in that
    wise you would probably be able to
    clear him educationally.
    And that is why Scientology education is itself a clearing process.”
    — L. Ron Hubbard

    Did anyone ever wonder who is the person or persons
    who summarize the materials and processes that are published in
    periodicals and the “Guide to the Materials of Dianetics and Scientology”
    catalog. To summarize these materials, I would think, the person or persons
    would thoroughly know the data of the materials.
    Anyone have and answer to this?



  108. Good one, Mark. We’re having a blast with it in pretty much that same manner. Nothing wrong with being very uptone about helping others regain their spiritual freedom.


  109. This phenomenon (trained and processed Scientologist having an unhealthy addiction) has puzzled me since my early days in Scn.

    Having an addiction is a “continuous overt” (The continuing overt act, HCOB 29-Sep-1965) against the 1st, 2nd & 3rd dynamics.

    I have seen myself an OT III ethic specialist (affiliated with the Co$) who had food addiction (he was disgustingly fat like a pig). I never visited him again because I didn’t have confidence on an ethic specialist doing himself a continuous overt unwilling or unable to overcome it.
    I also have seen (Co$’s) Scientologists with smoking addiction continuous overt.

  110. It is a pretty big assumption to assume that everyone who smokes does so because of addition. Some people like to smoke. Some people like coffee, and some people like beer.
    It is funny how the disapproving puritan types tack on the name “addiction” to things they disapprove of in order to scold people. Captain Obvious? More like Church Lady.

  111. Yes, there certainly is a win rate for 12 step programs. My main beef is that you label yourself an alcoholic or whatever for life. No real recovery. But, on the other hand, if you’re a drunk and are in AA and are no longer drinking, that is a good thing.
    In my case, I used to smoke, and then quit. From a “12 step” point of view, I would still be addicted to cigarettes. But I am not. I haven’t had a cigarette in over 20 years, and I do not even think about them except for when these discussions come up.
    Why should a drunk who’s been dry for 20 years and feels no need to take to the bottle call himself an alcoholic? He’s not anymore. Why not take a win?

  112. In fact, there was a grade chart that showed something “TBA.”

    On the 1975 grade chart, entitled “Bridge to a New World,” the grade was listed as “OT 8 and above” and the description said “There are perhaps 15 levels above OT VII fully developed but existing only in unissued note form, pending more people’s full attainment of OT VI & VII” L. Ron Hubbard.

    On the 1983 chart, entitled “The Bridge to Total Freedom,” OT levels were listed up to New OT XV. Note: 1983 is the first time it is called the Bridge to Total Freedom.

    There is a very thorough and rather scholarly study of the changes on the Grade chart on this website:

  113. The continuing overt act, HCOB 29-Sep-1965.

  114. martyrathbun09


  115. martyrathbun09


  116. Yes, that’s right. Disapproving puritan types. The Church of Scientology is overrun with them! For I while I wondered if I had dropped into a cross between the Catholic Church and the Puritans. Musn’t do this, and musn’t do that, and must be careful, and must be good, and must do the right thing as defined by the Church and must, must, must, must set a good example, and must be upstat and must, must, must be careful and must never do this or that or anything that anyone anywhere would disapprove of or that would reflect badly on the Church. Be a perfect perfect human being in every way and at the same time buy lots of auditing so you won’t have to be a perfect human being in every way and hey don’t you know your continued association with that body is degrading and on and on and on.


    Sorry for the rant.

  117. Hi Marty;

    If one looks at the wording of the processes of a grade, the actual wording, you’ll notice that they go through an evolution from effect to cause. The wordings of the processes early in the grade address the pc as being at effect, which of course he is. As the grade progresses, the wordings of the processes shift to address the pc at cause, which of course is what he is becoming. All grades O – IV do this; at least they did when I audited them; who knows how they are worded now.

    So, considering this is how the grades are configured; effect to cause; it is no wonder that the entire Bridge is configured the same way; from effect to cause.

    Obviously, KRC tech dictates that at some point you are on your own; that at some point you need to take responsibility to continue. I don’t see this as being ‘abandoned’ and forced to go on your own; I see this as the point where what you have in common with all others has ceased, or minimalized to where it can no longer be codified for everyone. The individual now is an individual, and what applies to one may not apply to another.

    Unfortunately, KSW is used to destroy the view any may have of doing just that.

    There was one individual, Ken Ogger, who was fully aware of that, and Ken did a very great amount of personal research into universes beyond what is on the Bridge. I know from personal experience that Ken was onto something very big as I knew exactly what he was digging into, having dug into it myself for years. Unfortunately, he was alone, and when he crashed and burned, there were no standard tech guys to help bail him out; he fell into the arms of squirrels and perished.

    Regardless you agree with Ken or not, he is someone who should be studied for all those who have gone as far as they can within the group. I’m not saying they should audit what Ken unearthed, but that they should study what he did so that they understand what it is that they have to do themselves.

    My opinion of course.


  118. I did OT VIII in Feb 1989 – very close to when George did his because if I recall corrected he did not do it at the maiden voyage.

    I don’t believe my OT VIII had yet been altered. Perhaps truncated but not altered.

    I just googled and I cannot find the OT VIII I did. Andy Hoare’s green website isn’t remotely close to what I did … unless I was in a serious coma (quite possible – JUST KIDDING)

    NO OT VIII that I’ve ever seen on line or discussed was what I did.

    So — I agree with Marty — bull — you won’t find it online.


  119. Marty, that was a brilliant and informative blog. Thank you.

  120. Chris: Read Lawrence Wright’s book — take a deep breath before you do, in my opinion.

    You can download for free a kindle app — and then pay 14.99 and get the book delivered in a few minutes.

    Now — here’s the caveat — you might say that Wright’s sources are flawed. For years I did discount anything that came out from a few sources he uses.

    But, at this point – I’m more willing to step way back and say …

    What are the NET gains and NET losses. Have some lost their lives, families, health, etc because of their adherence to this group?

    Only you can come up with the answers.

    It really IS about you. Ultimately.

    NO ONE can become enlightened or free FOR you.

    Just you.

  121. Looking back at all of all the Scientologists I have known I do feel there is something to what you are saying here. People who were around and did their bridge in the 70’s or earlier seem to have something going on- I feel trying to describe it might be impossible, but they seem calm, rational, effective, “Theta” and often have a power- not a forceful power, but just something you cant really describe.

    People I have known who have done their bridge later, in general seem to be no better off than your average “wog”. This is a generalization and ofcourse doesnt apply to everyone, but I believe there is truth to it.

    If I go into thte Church right now as “raw meat” and manage somehow to get myself all the way through OT8 (if that is even possible now) I have the feeling I will just be broke and broken.

  122. Oracle, Click on “Heidrun Beer”, that’s the link.

    Btw, Oracle, I’m glad that in spite of your contract work you still comment here from time to time. (But I miss your very good comments on Geir’s blog).

  123. I once asked LRH where he was on the Bridge. He didn’t want to comment on his own place, but being the jerk I am I kept asking him. His response to me was that he was well beyond OT 8. This would have been the original OT 8, back in the late 70’s or early 80’s.

  124. Probably she meant “See link above”

  125. Wow, that’s quite the realisation. However, like everything else concerning organised Scientology, be very wary of the data source. Their ability to lie and misevaluate is second to none.
    For what it’s worth my understanding is that Solo NOTS is a rundown, which means it is a series of actions with a known end phenomena but it does take all style auditing and you need to be good at it. My opinion is that It is not OT7 (but it sure made for good marketing). It is however a prerequisite to OT8 which means it was slotted in against it with all the fan fare the likes of Miscavige and his kind could muster. The original OT levels seem to have been bypassed and a whole new system introduced to cater for the not properly trained to ascend into confusion and hand over their bucks. I believe NED for OTs should be done after OT3, it does state the rundown was developed for those who were run on NED after the State of Clear (another Church confusion, just look at how Miscavige invalidates it now!) but that would have to be run at the AOs. There’s a so much confusion generated by Flag bypassing every Org under it the truth of the Bridge has been lost.
    Just look at the original OT4 and the state of being (exterior) required for original 5&6. I reckon there’s a Bridge in there somewhere but you got to know how to audit for real to find it.
    And yes, I did a couple of years on 7 before falling off with the squirrelism it was presented with. It’s an asshole being ripped off and lied to but for how long does one wallow with what has been done to them? There must come a time to have a good look and move on. If it’s not Scientology, so be it but I reckon there’s something good in it.

  126. Interesting:
    “Therefore one finds the higher levels publicly spoken of most frequently in the earlier books and tapes (between ’51 and ’55).”
    – L Ron Hubbard

    So the mysterious upper levels are in books such as “Creation of Human Ability”, the PDC lectures, etc.

    If so they are in plain view for a few dollars, like the purloined letter from Edgar Poe.

  127. Carcha, thanks for getting my point. Yes, INTENTION and operating with the materials as LIVE BEINGS are the keynotes.

    I guess this scene of independent Scientology groups that I envision would end up being similar to that of the different Christian sects – which are all Christian but “operate” differently. The tech and admin of the different Scn groups/organizations would undoubtedly vary but those that would flourish and prosper would be the ones which, in effect and in essence, adopted all the best of Scn and eliminated all the “worst” (or apparent worst) – which, to my mind, would most likely mean they’ve incorporated a living and evolving tech (which was standard operating procedure for LRH himself!) as well as interpreted and applied policy based on what LRH advised.

    That is to say, each of these, tech and admin, would be measured against PURPOSE and RESULTS and STATS.

    I was thinking about all that because the general ‘breed” who still call themselves Scientologists do, I believe, share a basic purpose, and if we’re going to operate at our best to forward that purpose we’re going to need a lot of effective groups. What’s more, I think it could be done without FIRST having to determine to what degree the tech and admin must be adhered to – which I get is the basic bone of contention among Independents but is something that would be a lengthy undertaking, at best, for a group to come to a mutual agreement on.

    Simply put, a CONCEPTUAL UNDERSTANDING of Scientology tech and admin is the workable basis for the forwarding of the purposes of Scientology – a basis that has already been worked out! We don’t have to reinvent this wheel.

  128. Pierre seems to have a self-importance button about having a hidden data line. Being a “Class XII” doesnt make you an authority any more than being an “OT VIII” does, or for that matter a Patron Meritorious with knobs on.

    Its been 27 years since LRH’s passing. IF there really were OT levels beyond OT VIII they would have been released by now…. You can only “go on hoping” for so long before you have to conclude that whatever stories you may have heard just are not true.

    There are people who post on this blog (RussW and DanK) who worked in RTRC — the technical compilation unit responsible for taking all the notes and ideas that LRH had and turning them into issued format. They have a much higher likelihood of knowing about the supposed “further OT levels” than Pierre or anyone else.

    Sooner or later you just have to confront reality. They don’t exist. It’s an empirical FACT. Rumor, stories, hearsay, hidden data, wishful thinking — none of them create reality. And the reality is, there are no OT levels above OT VIII. If they did exist, Miscavige would have issued them LONG before now to keep sucking the bucks out of the biggest cash cows….

    Of course, you can pretend they DO exist and are just hidden from view somewhere, waiting for the appropriate time for release. But confronting the physical universe reality — they do not exist. Nobody can show them to you. They are like the Abominable Snowman. Some people will just keep believing it exists, I guess forever. And there isn’t really much you can do about it as it’s pretty hard to prove something DOESNT exist because it COULD be somewhere out of sight. But if nobody sees it for 25 years or 50 years or 100 years — it’s a pretty safe bet that it doesnt exist.

    Wake up and smell the coffee….

  129. Chris

    I have a couple of Grade Charts here.

    In the 1970 issue it gives OTVIII Ability Gained as
    “Ability to be at cause knowingly and at will over thought,life, form, matter, energy, space and time, subjective and objective.”

    Inability lost…
    “Freedom from inability to be totally free and at total cause as a being.”

    Now, I could be wrong, but I don’t believe that OTVIII was even released at that point, Maybe not even fully researched?
    It the 1990 Grade Chart it lists OT levels through XV but this Grade chart does not state any “abilities gained” or “inabilities lost” other than saying…”As given in the materials of _______.” All OT levels above OT VIII are listed as “Not yet released”.

    Hope this is of some help.

    Eric S

  130. miscavigeisscaredofsam

    It appears someone has been routing answers to your blog posts to my email account by mistake. Here you go (Sherman?) I’m forwarding it to the blog for you where it belongs – sorted 🙂

    “If you had any doubt about Marty being anti-LRH then read the
    following quote from LRH:

    “Any difficulties people were having with going Clear were handled
    in the mid-60s and OT levels as they exist in Advanced Orgs were
    completed by 68. There are perhaps 15 levels above OT VII fully
    developed but existing only in unissued form, pending more people’s
    full attainment of OT VI and VII.” – LRH from HCOB 30 July 1973,
    Scientology, Current State of the Subject and Materials”

    Please note that you missed the word ‘note’ from the above quote. Really – you should send this stuff for I/A for approval before you email it out.

  131. I vaguely remember something from a tape where Ron was talking about how, but with slight alterations, two Buddhist practices were transformed from being useful to being traps. Due to ignorance or design, they were turned around so that they made the being using them less free.

    My highest acknowledged case level is Clear, but it became quite obvious that the way Scientology is being delivered by some, and the Corporate Church of Scientology specifically, seem to be more fixating the being’s attention on his aberrations rather than making him more able to fix or unfix his attention at will.

    When one considers that self-determinism is the “Q” of Scientology (defined as “it is the level from which we are now viewing which is the common denominator to all experience which we can now view. The highest level from which we can now view.”)

    Ron used this Q to state what would constitute a valid process. It went something like this…

    “Any process which improves a beings ability to create matter, energy, space and time, and the ability to create the space and time in which to create, and or place, matter and energy, is a valid process. All else are not.”

    My opinion is that one ignores this definition at his peril, either as cause or receipt of the “process” under consideration. (and personally I have extended this to include all human interaction within the definition of “process”.)

    It became apparent to me that at some point one would have to free himself from any and all “dependencies” in order to be totally free.

    In the same way that an auditor should only be ASSISTING the PC to the exact degree that the PC cannot proceed without it, and no more, then Scientology, as a whole, should be following this same attitude towards the “PC/OTs” overall progress toward full self/pan-determinism, and full cause over his dynamics. (Whenever and however that is achieved)

    Eric S

  132. Transcend or Descend and … die !!!
    This aspect has not been adressed so far, and I make my point here:
    I am OT VIII and did it in 1989 after completing with huge wins Solo NOTs as should have been done – (The certainty is a total scam).
    What had and is actually happening is that technically David Miscavige and his staff have put Scientologist at risk and caused a lot of them to die.
    This is because of their dishonesty, they did not say the truth so one DID NOT know that was the end and was expecting the rest of the promise step.
    It would have been OK, yes I say OK and very accettable IF he and Mithoff would have said: “Listen, LRH did his work and you got it – Now is up to you to do your OT drills and get into the OT realm for good” I mean the reason why OT DRILL were NOT effective and could not be done prior to NOTs and SOLO NOTs case handling was because the NOTs case made it so that it would backfire on the body – so after that case had been handled THAT’s IT!!!! Basta, finito go ahead!!!! But, first of all the Original OT level were made to disappear because if not the LIE of IX,X,XI,XII etc. would not bite, and also there are A TON of OT drills on COHA, PDCs etc. etc.
    Also they did not provide the materiel of SOLO NOTs to use in case of necessity. Yes because that’s a technology that you may USE forever, but of course if you are not told that and if you are not allowed to HAVE the materiel, the lists etc. you are bound to go to Flag or the Ship any time you are in need. $$$$$$$$$$
    But also you can tend to suppress the fact that you need to handle somethng more so you PRETEND it does not need handling and …. you DIE !!!! And I have seen 10s if not 100s of OT VIII DIE because of this and DAVID MISCAVIGE is responsible for this omission.
    Even if we consider this dishonesty alone we can see that it is a tragedy for the whole Scientology community.
    So as Marty says then you are induced to descend by DM instead of Transcend and you really descend in a dark hole called The Solo NOTs Certainty !!!! TOTAL COMPLETE UTTER BULLSHIT !!!!!
    When LRH developed Solo NOTs an event was held by the then Senior C/S David Mayo and there he started adressing the audience with:

    Who’s going to wear those boots in the sky?
    Are you going to wear the boots in the sky?
    Now why are we talking about boots in the sky along with Solo NED for OTs? I’m sure you’ve read the article by Ron about boots in the sky. From it you see it’s up to you, or up to each individual finally and ultimately to determine his own future and his own freedom.


    and in relation to OT DRILLs:

    You might think such a person could do something like run various OT drills. This might be the processes in Ron’s book THE CREATON OF HUMAN ABILITY; and he could simply improve himself as an OT and become more OT each day. He would be able to, if it weren’t for certain
    factors which originated a very long time ago which booby trap the possibility of advancing upwards.
    Any effort made by an individual to become an OT or to increase his OT powers results in a restimulation or re-enactment of certain factors set up long, long ago. We all carry these factors around with us to a greater or lesser degree. Some of them, more prominently than others; and
    depending on how things are going, even more in display or less in display. However — these things are carried along.
    Any effort by the individual to expand as an OT results in him colliding with these little booby traps, and self limiting factors, which prevent him from moving on and further upward.

    And also an estimate of hours to be audited was given:

    I suppose a lot of people are wanting to know how long it will take to get through Solo NOTs.
    That is a very difficult question to answer. An educated guess and very wise prediction would be in the vicinity of around 100 hours.

    And this was when LRH WAS ALIVE AND WELL and Mayo was not yet the squirrel of the squirrels !!!!
    So this is MUCH more reliable compared to the BS announced by DM !!!

    All this is completely aligned with what Marty is writing here: WE NEED TO TRASCEND !
    Of course we need to do ALL the available Bridge FIRST but after that with a great “Knowledge of how to know” we can wear our boots in the sky and go OT for good! We do not need any f…. priest any more to grant us our right to go free .. we had enough of them in the past, LRH is and was a great friend, let’s fully use his legacy.

  133. Then why does the Grade Chart go all the way to OT 13 if there was nothing above 8? Did DM make this grade chart after Ron’s death or was this how Ron intended it? So many things don’t make sense about all of this and so many people got SCREWED.

  134. What coffee?

    When you die, you die!

    Not my cup of tea.


  135. Thanks for your post, Carcha.

    Classic Bridge pre LRH going off lines: Life Repair, Dianetics, Drug Rundown if needed, Grades, Expanded Dn, Power, R6EW, the Clearing Course, OT I-III, then NOTs was added prior to OT IV-VII, and the (released) Bridge ended with OT VII the EP of which was and IS exterior at will with full perceptics and the rehabilitation of intention.

    Agree! this was floating TA for days & weeks delivery! And shiny, uptone, truly alive beings! Look whats walking around now! ?!? That alone tells the story.

  136. Grasshopper, I get your point. The 12 step programs are predicated on one admitting that they are “powerless” over the thing they are addicted to. I do think the 12 steps give them back some power back over the addiction, but without a lot of additional counselling to handle obsessions, compulsions, ruins, triggers, etc, it may not be enough for some to safely drop the label, if the label is what they need and use to remind themselves of what they have to do, each and every day. Fear of relapse is very real for many. But as you say, the win rate is very good for these programs, so its worth recognizing what it is about them that supports the success. If anyone wants a great read, get a hold of the Big Book of AA, as its called. Sold everywhere. You will laugh, cry, and gain a lot of insight into just about everything.

  137. Scott – Very nice. The “Lower Bridge” has the basics of all interactions with others. I’m finding that the auditing tech (red-on-white) interacts with the management tech (green-on-white) (e.g. ethics tech), and the two are apparently necessary to form up a complete picture. – Carcha.

  138. a cleared cannibal is a cleared cannibal. Auditing and training are helpful and useful. But until the person decides to change the condition they are in, they don’t. It takes confront to change conditions.

  139. fly on the wall

    Last I heard Pierre was channelling King Louis of France. Or was it the other way around.

  140. I think your advice is excellent for anyone seeking the actual state of OT.

    The OT levels offered by the Church are all negative gain levels. They just take away the barriers to regaining our lost beingness. The cage is gone, but it’s still up to us to learn to fly. LRH released a lot of the positive gain steps in the early 1950s. And there are also the actual OT drills on 4,5,6 and 7 that the Church has allowed to become “lost” tech.

    LRH’s dry sense of humour often gets overlooked these days. I wouldn’t be surprised if he left the upper bridge as a bit of an enigma, a reminder that we eventually need to grow up and take responsibility for our own progress. Not by inventing bogus wholetrack implants to self-audit, but by increasing ability through application of the data. He once said that a clear could walk to OT. But that clear needs to put on their boots and do their own walking.

    And some people may have a misconception that the biggest cognitions will arrive in session, with OT abilities descending unto them like an award from the COB. I got as far as audited NOTs over 20 years ago. Since then I’ve found a slow steady increase in theta perceptions of the present time environment, and a slow steady increase in my ability to create other universes. The major cognitions have come from study and application of the fundamentals of scientology.

  141. Yes Mike. And as a matter of conclusion it would mean that RJ35 “From clear to eternity” was not written by LRH as it advertises levels which are not existing. It’s safe to believe that all subsequent RJ are also false, especially RJ 38 “the proof”, and the one which says that OTVIII handle amnesia on the whole track which it doesn’t do, make a survey amongst OTVIII.

  142. Alaska Ronn,
    If you look at the picture on my handle, you see me in 1988 when I
    completed the original OT8. I refused to do the Miscavige changes
    because I knew what I had reached. You can imagine how
    easy it was for me to see right through Miscavige.

  143. Marty,
    Maurice and I are very good friends and we are having great
    discussions. You know he also helped me to uproot my
    anger at scientology. This is a big win!

  144. Awesome, Scott

    “So is the wise man, girt by faithful friends,
    By steadfast counsellors and pure;
    Never from height of fortune he decends,
    As rafters hold the peak secure.”
    Jataka, #396


  145. I like that you are definitely out of the corporate Scientology mold and exploring. Have a look at ” Tapping EFT” it is somehow connected to how auditing works and by all reports very effective and free.

  146. Coffee and non excessive beer are harmless.

    However smoking and alcoholism are medically proven unhealthy addiction. Obesity is a medically proven unhealthy condition. So they are “continuous overt” (The continuing overt act, HCOB 29-Sep-1965) mainly against the 1st dynamic, but also against the 2nd & 3rd dynamics.

  147. Your humble servant


    “There are perhaps 15 Levels above OT VII fully developed but existing only
    in unissued note form, pending more peoples fill attainment of
    OT VI & VII.”
    I have also read the above quotation many times and believe that it was penned by Ron and that he was serious in saying so. I believe it was written in an HCOB, but I don’t know the date. I’m thinking around 1982, but it could have been as early as 1976. As for the current Grade Chart and all pronuncements by the Church subsequent to around 1982, and particularly after Ron’s passing in 1986, I believe the statements are absolutely not to be trusted.

    To attempt to reconcile what Marty and Mike are saying that there are no OT levels above the original OTVIII with the above quotation, I believe that the unissued notes referred to have been lost or else taken and concealed by someone. No doubt it is true that any levels above OT VIII do not exist in the hands of David Miscavige, and if he had gotten his hands on such materials he would have seriously altered them. To me, the fact that exhaustive searches were made looking for them do not mean that they never existed in any form at all or that the statement above which is attributed to him is false or a forgery. It could be, as I say, that the “unissued notes” were lost or concealed by someone. This is not to say that the quotation, “I thought you were a zen practitioner” is not truthful or appropriate, but just that no matter how much one knows or has discovered, there is always the possibility that one can know and discover something more besides.

    It never seemed to be that the Church attempted to portray Ron as a God after his passing, merely as an OT, which as you know is defined as being causative over matter, energy, space, time, thought, form and life ( to a greater or lesser degree). And, I don’t doubt that Ron is and was very OT. And, I believe, we shall be meeting him again, perhaps, as he says, “on the other side of the bridge.”

    Thanks for your comments.

  148. Excellently stated.

    Yes, the cogs do hit in long after processing and the abilities
    increase in all areas.

    Those self-imposed restrictions just gradually go like the night that gives
    way to the dawn of a new day of greater freedom and infinite beingness.

    Thanks David


  149. I get what you’re saying, but it is a slippery slope. Red meat is bad for you. Bacon is bad. On the activities side, football is bad for you, as is rock climbing, sky diving, bicycling, hockey, skiing, and living in LA. But to the point, sure smoking is not good for you, but I met many people who smoked and were not addicted. They just liked to smoke at certain times, and then stopped for a while. Doing dangerous things to live your life is senior to kow-towing to the “care of the body cult”. In my opinion, of course. Actually, PAB 6 is a good read that touches on this.

  150. I believe the only reference I have ever seen/heard on the “new” OT8 was in the RJ(68?) where he says “….you will like it when you do it” “it handles the principal reason for amnesia on the whole track, and brother, thats something you need to handle” etc. I am paraphrasing. By date and description by those who did them, the old OT8 and New OT8 are completely different levels.
    That EP is similar to the definition of “Operating Thetan” or what I think is sometimes called “Full OT”. I do not believe any level currently delivered in the Church promises that. Logically, if OT8 did deliver that EP, you probably wouldnt have a long queue for 9-15, but who knows. That EP seems to be inferred as something you get somewhere above 8 in OT9-15. So people doing the New OT8 and being confused/wanting more afterwards and wondering where to go from there isnt that surprising to me.
    Also, if LRH wrote that there was a level that produced this EP it doesnt seem to me to be crazy or “in denial” to assume there was actually such level just because it was not known to have been found by a few of the witnesses. Whether it was found or still exists is the question.

  151. That’s right Claudio! Once you know how to audit solo not’s, then you can use it. It’s not a matter of doing six sessions a day, this is gross, overrunning and never LRH says anything like that.
    It’s just a tool, an ability to audit. You can fix any BPC in your universe and also on the universe of anyone if you feel compelled to.
    You’re upset : session. You’re worried : session Roller-coast : session.
    It’s for use. And you have to keep on being crammed to stay on top.
    You audit. A scientologist is an auditor or why to be a scientologist? For being a member of a community? No thanks!
    Auditing is the point. PC in flesh and blood, and soloing.
    OT levels, well… OT is to go exterior with full perception and being able to operate, it’s the EP of “old” OT6… Yes, “old”. What kind of SP has succesfully “tech degraded” the OT LEVELS???
    Replaced it with some bloody bla about some false OTLevels which have never existed?
    Built a ship to deliver those not existing OT levels? Take all your money. Why have you been so blind?
    People can’t observe outpoints. And when you can, you feel terribly alone in a sheep world.
    We have been lied to. And it was difficult to see because we couldn’t imagine such a treason.

  152. I really like this post. Thank you

  153. Hi Eric – The real difficulties we all have are with theta, not MEST. (Just me $0.02 on why OT VIII isn’t eleased.) – Carcha.

  154. Regular Dog formerly Underdog

    I smoked cigarettes for 40 years until I read one particular book that helped me quit. “The Easy Way to Stop Smoking” by author Alan Carr. The book have me healing by understanding on the subject of cigarettes. No gimmicks. It helped me understand the nicotine problem in the same way Marty’s blog and books helped me understand the Scientology, Inc problem. I’m convinced a spiritual being can do anything if he can get the right education. If a being gets the right education of any subject he can no longer be the adverse effect of anything in that area. Spurge a little and buy the hardcover edition. Or you can be like me – I had so much counter-intention on stopping smoking that after spending $40,000 in my life on cigarettes I refused to shell out the money for the book and checked it out instead at the library free. That’s an example of the degree of counter-intention I had towards myself. I wouldn’t even cough up the $20 bucks or whatever the price was then. Then as I quit I bought the damn book because I wanted my own copy. The author is truly a social being and brilliant far beyond what I would have ever imagined before reading his book.

  155. Maria – Great post, thank you for the link.That cleared up some data for me. – Carcha.

  156. P.S. Rey Robles has also researched the history of the various Grade Charts and lectured about it at a FZ Convention. Those lectures are on YouTube if you Google his name – five lectures total.

  157. I think your conclusions are ill-founded.

    It is my view that statements about the OT levels before 1978 are superseded by the development of NOTs.

    If you want another view of this — IF there were other OT levels to be put together, why was LRH spending his days writing Science Fiction? He was off without distractions (other than living in a trailer). Wouldnt it have been more important to put the OT levels together than write 10 volumes of Mission Earth??

    Believe me, RJ 38 IS L. Ron Hubbard.

  158. A Bridge to the state of full OT as LRH promised is not there. Pretty simple. He never was able to bring even him self to a state of demonstrable OT (as HE defined the state). Upon that hinged “Scientology”. Without that, it will dwindle to another “feel good” therapy.

  159. I got that same email plus another. OSA you are going to get on the stick
    with something better than this. How about your Atlantic Adverpromo
    for D.M.s Ponzi scheme. Wheres the Beef ? I would say .
    Step 1. Pull out your thumb
    Step 2. Stop telling lies ( when you lie it becomes your future)
    Step 3. Quit working for SP’s (IAS and David Miscavige)
    Step 4. Take a walk, look at the tops of trees and buildings.
    Step 5. Clay Demo your situation and walk some more.
    Repeat from Step 1.until Major Stable Win.

  160. Curious,

    Indeed everything you wanted to know about OT s found in
    the books and lectures from Technique 80 to about the 8th ACC.

    However, many of the current CDs and former cassette sets have
    missing lectures and these exist on reel tapes that I and perhaps
    others have before the censors stepped in.

    You cannot even find these in the former and present R&D volumes.

    For processing from the book and lectures data etc., it must be done
    on a gradient and not random. The sequence is very important otherwise you slam into a few unpleasant situations and incidents depending on
    you case level.


  161. Great rant Maria. Even when you rant you make sense…

  162. Christine,
    I sent it to Marty about a year ago.
    I will dig out a copy for you.
    I don’t know what you did on OT8
    However, I did the version in which LRH talks about his future
    life as a politician.
    He covers topics such as ‘synthetic karma’ and the beings
    who are controlling the universe from other dimensions.
    He also rails against Christianity and talks about
    the Anti-Christ.
    He covers the pure genetic line topic as well.
    It is about a 2 and one half page narrative.


  163. Your humble servant,

    Hopefully, none of the notes that would be used for what I call
    full OT VIII rundowns have been lost. They may have been deliberately held back and/or distorted into processes for future release.

    If you have the know how on the sequence of rundowns, you should be able to accomplish a smooth process or processes from the early
    OT data and procedures of the 1950s.


  164. He’s not saying “when you die you die!”
    He is saying that LRH didn’t write up any OT 9 or higher OT levels.
    You should learn to differentiate better.

  165. Transcend — it’s the key. I genuinely appreciate Marty’s ability to keep the game light heartened and free from mean-spiritedness.

    Here’s something Albert Einstein once said, sounds right to me:

    “A human being is a part of the whole, called by us the “Universe,” a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest—a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us.

    Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.”

    ~ Albert Einstein

    How do you free yourself from prision? Widening ones circle of compassion. Think Mandela, Gandhi, and the great men/women of our time — compassion.

    I suggest a little known movie — “The Impossible” — see how compassion worked in this movie … based on a true story. (due to MLK day on Monday many have 2 more weekend days – go see this but bring kleenex)

  166. Carcha

    I have been working with the interplay of ethics, tech and admin lately. They are seeming to me to be akin to Affinity, Reality, and Communication (ARC) in that they are not entirely separate things, but rather three aspects of the same thing.

    Upon close study I have found that there are aspects of each of ethics, tech, and admin in any situation, or its handling. For instance “the Danger condition” is actually calling for a data eval and its handling. It is using an “admin handling” (including “admin scales”), and an “Ethics handling”, both involving their own (though related) “techs”, all at the same time. By approaching it from any of these aspects you can make gain in handling the situation, but if you are aware that all three are in play, you can really play the game effectively.

    It seems that perhaps in much the same way as ARC = the energy of Life, Ethics, tech, and Admin = the activity of Living)

    Just some thoughts…

    Eric S

  167. This is what I like about you Mike – you cut to the chase. BAM! Thank you for that!

  168. Thank You MaBu. XXOO

  169. Yes. I had the same experience as you did. And as it turns out, the easy way to quit smoking has nothing to do with physical addiction! Highly recommended book if you want to shake out the false data big time.

  170. Yea – I was thinking of you guys. I’ll need to come up some time. It sounds like you have a good thing going.

  171. Chris


    Tough to know whether the processes that actually were capable of producing the “Ability to be at cause knowingly and at will over thought,life, form, matter, energy, space and time, subjective and objective.” and ““Freedom from inability to be totally free and at total cause as a being.” actually ever existed or not.

    One could survey “are there any beings out there who have a certainty on having reached those end phenomena through the processes of Scientology?” ( I am not asking that you be able to prove it with “scientific” evidence here, just confidence in having achieved it.)

    There may well be and I would love for that to be the case, but whether there are or not, it certainly seems like a good goal to me…. and I push on toward it…

    Eric S

  172. Hi Mike, reading this post has left me with a melancholy feeling. As Karen#1 reminded us, Larry Wright said on Today “The Church of Scientology has lost its way”. Clearly the Church went wayyyyy wayward after 1986. I can’t help but wonder how things would have been different if visionaries such as Marty and yourself had assumed the mantle of leadership at that time instead of DM. Mike, any 2c on how DM was able to hijack the COS and degrade it into the Cult of Reverse $cientology???

  173. In Larry’s book, it turns out Paul Haggis went all the way up the bridge with out ever running whole track. Then Ray Mithoff drags in a Hollywood Illuminary (Paul, who is by the way was working with Clint Eastwood on “Million Dollar Baby at the time), and gives him a brow beating for a funny comment he made to Steve Spielberg that upset Cruise, who apparently was very covertly “enlightening Steve”. The “mission so impossible” he couldn’t have just sat Steve down and told him to pick up the cans? What the hell happened to Tom’s grade zero?

    Lost it’s way? Here is Jenny DeVoght accusing Anderson Cooper, (Son of Gloria Vanderbuilt) of being rude in front of millions of his fans. Lost it’s way? These people are traveling in the DARK. How could they possibly find their way? The Int Execs and Tom Cruise have generated more out P.R. for the Church than I ever dreamed POSSIBLE! God I feel for Mike Rinder and YOU! Who dedicated years and decades to make Scientology and Hubbard an acceptable idea only to have it mauled up in a few short years by a handful of blind, arrogant, narcissistic, LOOSE CANNONS! From “Int Execs” to “Train Wrecks”!

  174. Transcendent is , by the time I got through Larry’s book, I was just glad I got the fuck out of Dodge!

  175. Carcha
    I am afraid I am having some difficulty getting my wits about that one. I think I get the part about Theta being senior to MEST, but I am at a loss when I try to connect that to the release of OT VIII.

  176. i did pierres ot9, i spoke to bruce hines and russ williams about it, it isnt lrh, a lot od drills similar to old ot 6 and 7 this was 2 years ago.

  177. I received one of those too, Sam. From “Dennis.”

  178. Plus Mike, Pierre was never on the Apollo and certainly was not a CL XII back then, I don’t have any ill will to Pierre but his claim on this subject is simply unwarranted and BS.

  179. I think you will find the best summary of data to answer your question about DM in Marty’s books….

  180. Mike — right. Never saw him on the Apollo.

    I have read some of his write-ups that assert various things to be true simply on the basis of his supposed status and I don’t agree with that. The pretended “I am a standard tech guy (ie I follow LRH) because I am a Class XII and now here are some levels (of my own invention) that I am passing off as being LRH as I know something you don’t know” is a lower harmonic even than Bill Robertson, who at least had the “honesty” to say his invented “OT Levels” came from “channeling LRH telepathicay.” So, if people wanted to do the CBR thing, at least they did so knowing they had been compiled with the assistance of a Ouija Board or something. Pierre seems to try to foist off his inventions as actually being something from LRH that he happens to know and nobody else does. That is dishonest.

  181. I’ve used TFT/EFT (tapping) more than just a couple times, Peter, and, while it is indeed free, and can be amazingly effective for some things and with some people, I cannot find ANY relationship to what we think of as auditing (I’m Cl VI, XDN C/S), not even, really to the various Assist processes. I’m not at all saying it shouldn’t be used, but I am saying it shouldn’t be confused with Scn type processes.

  182. Thanx Mate will do.

  183. It seems clear there will be way more to do auditing-, study- or application-wise after OT VIII than there will ever be time for this life time. That would be broadening more horizontally than vertically and yet achieving ‘transcending’ or Moving On Up a Little Higher with each newly developed skill or cognition.
    No problem with accepting that there are no further FORMULATED OT levels above OT VIII, i.e. that materials pertaining to these could NOT be found so far in a quarter of a decade.

    What is considerably harder to grasp is what to think of the quotes of the LRH refs given earlier on this post:
    1) HCOB 30 July 1973 SCIENTOLOGY, CURRENT STATE OF THE SUBJECT AND MATERIALS (re: “15 levels above OT VII fully developed but existing only in unissued note form, pending more people’s attainment of OT VI and VII”).
    2) HCOB 24 January 1977 TECH CORRECTION ROUND UP, ‘X: ADVANCED GRADES’ (re: “Well, to tell you the honest truth, OT VIII has been in existence all those several years, and to it has been added a very large number of OT grades. None of them have been issued. Notes for all these grades are in existence”)
    3) LRH ED 30 INT, 17 Dec 1978, THE YEAR OF LIGHTNING FAST NEW TECH, Ron’s Journal 30 – another mention of additional OT levels (I don’t have this one).

    The quotes in these 3 issues seem to indicate that there SHOULD BE NOTES on these additional OT levels – somewhere.
    I don’t want to dub-in to be more comfortable.
    If someone can shed more light on THIS point that would be great!

    Greta P.S.: Sam, I also got that anonymous email, OSA at work to try to split up the field?


  184. Ditto, from “Dennis”…….

  185. Thank you Maria. Just finished exploring some on that site. Good, interesting reads.

    Sigh. I guess that despite being some sort of clear, I have an imperfect memory of the chart from way back when .

  186. Since the title of this thread is “Transcend,” I note that David Miscavige now has lots more to transcend from what is in Wright’s book “Going Clear.”

    As multiple DM abuse episodes are recounted, Wright typically puts in a disclaimer like a footnote or parenthetical comment along the lines of “The church categorically denies all charges of Miscavige’s abuse.” While the disclaimer no doubt gives some legal cover for the author and a modicum of fairness, the effect ends up being ironic, and comical. As the church’s categorical denial is cited, and cited again, the church just ends up looking like a bunch of lying idiots.

    In fact, it becomes clearer than ever that DM has a deeply entrenched and long-standing character flaw related to poor emotional control. I was astounded but not surprised at the anecdotes. One that stood out for me was when Brousseau drove DM and others to Hemet Lake to go fishing. DM had never fished. Brousseau showed the group how to cast, what to do, and so on. Then he looked over at DM, who was visibly shaking, veins bulging.

    DM reportedly said, “You got to be kidding me! This is it? You just sit here and fucking wait?” Brousseau replied yes, and DM reportedly said: “I can’t stand it! I feel like jumping in and grabbing a fish with my fucking hands! Or cramming the hook down their fucking throats!” (The fishing trip ended. Quotes are from Wright’s book, page 176.)

    Now, having spent a good number of hours fishing myself, I can tell you that most people find the sport relaxing, soothing, and fun. It requires that the mind both relax and stay alert at the same time, in different ways. It makes one think a little bit more in a fifth dynamic way as you try to get into a fish’s mind, so to speak.

    So DM’s reported reactions and words smack of various problems that could be addressed through auditing, counseling, and spiritual growth. Perhaps he could take a few years off and develop a peaceful tome on “Zen and the Art of Fishing” or something. In fact, in non-Scientological terms, DM’s behavior (not just that one incident) throws up concerns about psychopathology, possible lower range/high functioning autism spectrum disorders, attention deficit disorder (which is often marked by impatience, impulsivity, etc.). It is not clear to me that DM has been a PC. Wright’s book seemed in one place to assert that DM had attested to being clear in this lifetime, and in another place reports that he had no PC folders. Hmm.

  187. Regular Dog formerly Underdog

    Hi Maria, You’re right that the book shakes out false data. But what you say about the physical addiction is not true. The book definitely talks about the physical addiction of nicotine. It is very physically addicting. It’s just that the body’s actual need for the substance passes quicker than most people think it will. Unless one uses a nicotine replacement item which keeps the body thinking that nicotine is valuable when it isn’t. But the actual physical withdrawal is days – not weeks. Then other factors you deal with over the longer periods of time is where it really gets interesting.

  188. I can confirm that RJ38 is most definitely LRH. I edited the original recordings where LRH talks to the recordist in between. It is NOT a forgery.

  189. All of these quotes were before New Era Dianetics for OTs (NOTs), which consists of some 26 (?) separate rundowns, and Solo NOTs was incorporated into the formal Grade Chart in the early 1980s, in place of what used to be “old” OT 4, 5, 6 and 7.

  190. Joe Pendleton

    Which Louis?

  191. Humble Servant,
    Many people, including Marty, have mentioned seeing LRH “unissued notes”, “instructions”, etc on many subjects. I am sure that they do exist. But whether they exist or not, they would still not be part of LRH’s standard tech because to my understanding LRH only RELEASED his tech via tapes & HCOBs after HE had approved the final issues. So, while he may have been working on a lot of stuff which may be amazing and interesting, if HE did not release the final issue, to my understanding it would not be a part of his Standard Tech. To my mind, this would include all “HCOBs” published after 1986 (or perhaps even a little earlier) unless someone can show me an LRH prior final approval of those compiled issues.

  192. The primary reason for amnesia on the whole track was given in a non-confidential HCOB in 1963, during the time a number of implant GPM line plots were being researched. Its in the Tech Vols. (Or at least was. I haven’t seen the latest version.) I always found it curious that this was ‘hobson-jobsoned’ over into the “New OT VIII EP”, as there is nothing confidential in that HCOB.

    Further to the point, consider this: If you truly were supportive of LRH’s intentions, and you had to choose between releasing further OT Levels or a series of case boosters, which would you focus on primarily?

    Which has DM and Co focused on? Did they complete that cycle?
    Do they “have to have before they can do?”

  193. Sounds good, except one’s health does mainly belong to the 5th dynamic, a fact often overlooked. Man processes food, and living forms in general through a very precise ritual – capture, freezing, transport to the kitchen, placîng it near an oven, then heat/infrared or whatever waves, then either it goes to the shop nicely packaged with cool pictures, or on a placed table, etc. While this process has been generalized some 10000 years ago, about the time Hubbard says the R6 somehow started to kick in on this planet, body conditions started to decay leading to an overal condition of extinction of species and destruction of the eco-system. Eating raw food, as it’s now rediscovered, i.e. Food not engramically processed, restores health, maintains it, etc

    That just to say, briefly, that smoking et al is just a tiny dramatization 😉

  194. OT VIIs and VIIIs were being “encouraged” to put downpayments down towards OT IX onwards as early as the late 80s. I got some tickets for Elvis’ next London gig they could buy.

  195. As I had not done any OT level it is of no concern for me personally if there are OT levels above of OT 8 or if OT 8 and NOTs are good or not or whatever. Thus I try to „go OT“ with the tools I have and can use and I also try to avoid those heavy charge areas that could inflame my body.
    I had and have no attention of my assigned level. My concern is if I can handle my life. If I can heal some body trouble (mine or that of my wife or even of my cat). And to be honest, to make more money. Not to give it to IAS or Super Power but to use it for my survival.

  196. One of my earliest comments here was along the lines of “I think when you get through OT 8 properly, you get to figure the rest out for yourself”

    This seemed perfectly obvious to me, a proper OT at cause as described in the PDCs wouldn’t need someone else telling them what to do next. I still think that’s the way it works and I also think that’s what CD has in mind too.

  197. Gern Gaschoen

    Its not a MEST thing; its a people (thus, Theta) issue. If we had 12 or so people wearing the SO Hat in the Independent scene, actually per GoW/RoW, we could have a full production line and a real Org producing Auditors and OT’s.

    For OTVIII to be delivered, it must be in a Theta environment. That is not the case, really, either in the Independent scene, or within the Church. Both the Independent and Church scenes have Ethics issues preventing real Theta spaces being created for delivery of OTVIII; mostly geared around actually having a full Org to ensure Qual results.. I personally (my opinion here) do not think that OT’s can be made one-on-one; we need a fully functioning 21-dept Org board to ensure that Ethics, Tech and Admin are *in* on the OT production line, and that OT’s are really getting the EP and not just rabbit’ing/blowing/&etc.

    Second Phenomenon is very difficult for an individual to correct; it takes a 3rd dynamic operation to ascend beyond.

  198. Yes, Its Gossip spread by OSA to disrupt Marty and not very good
    Gossip. FLUNK ! OSA goes back to Kindergarten Now ! In the “HOLE” Kiddies.
    Dr. Lecter

  199. martyrathbun09

    Thanks. I am not posting that. Virtually every OT VIII I’ve talked to (attest dates ranging from 88 to 2012) has told me that alleged issue was never seen by them, on OT VIII or anywhere else.

  200. I guess you thought I was talking about what the book said about physical addiction — I was actually talking about the “method” used to “facilitate” quitting. I think the astonishing thing about it is that it is reported that for some, even many, there isn’t even a craving or discomfort period once quit! I’ve since discovered that one can use a similar method on other “addictive” situations!

  201. So LRH’s insistance in Ron’s Journal 30, that there were many more levels above OTVIII that would be being released was a lie?

    “There are other OT levels above VIII but these will be released from time to time when people are ready for them. We’re already higher than Man has ever been and it can get quite stratospheric.”

  202. Richard Lloyd-Roberts

    Interesting that no one has tried to prove you wrong on this point from COS.

  203. fly on the wall

    Pierre may have been on a ship for a brief period. Or he joined just as the SO was coming ashore. He was in the flag galley as a waiter for years until around 1979/80 when he tansferred to the auditor training corp. Apparently he took to auditing like a fish to water. Good for him. I bear him no ill will. But I recall an almost insufferable arrogance and self importance which may now be manifesting itself as his version of upper levels. OMFG. Physician, heal thyself.

  204. Thanks for that, Claudio. I believe that all the tools are available for anyone to make it whatever their own concept of “OT” is. One created his own downfall by the practice of Not-isness and one restores oneself by the gradient scale of as-isness. How does one do that? By looking.

    It’s obvious that miscavige and his gang’s concept of “OT” is an Obedient Thetan. Sorry boys. Not my game.

  205. Bernard — you characterize it as you like.

    How do characterize the claims about the attributes of a Clear in DMSMH?

    If it makes you feel good (or bad) to call it a lie, that’s your choice. Others might call it superseded statements. Of things that were later better understood and overtaken by other developments. Others would call it all a load of garbage.

    Labels are just that — they don’t change reality, they simply influence the perception of it.

  206. Thanks Ulf. Yes, I have heard those too. Annie was there and told me so as well.

  207. perfect answer. If Bernard needs it to be a lie, he can have it as a lie. Its not going to change anything. And the body of LRH’s work can stand the slings and arrows of those who need to make a point. Who fucking cares. If anyone is OT8 and needs more, I pity their sorry ass.

  208. Mike, you are really on roll on this thread!

    BAM! “Labels are just that — they don’t change reality, they simply influence the perception of it.”

    Nice! I’m putting that one on my wall!

  209. I would be interested in what these “notes” might say. But in all honesty, I don’t really feel I need them. My goal as an auditor and in C/Sing and moving a being up the levels is to get a person case-wise and training-wise to a point where he is sufficiently key’d out and trained such that he never needs anyone else to resolve charge in his own universe and is capable of resolving charge in another’s universe at will.
    This is a full application of the “First Act” from Advanced Procedures and Axioms.

    From my own personal experience, this is an achievable goal. Also, from my own personal experience, I don’t think I would have achieved it without having learned the discipline of auditing others. Not saying other people can’t, but I don’t think I would have. Ron said that if anyone is ever going to make it to OT they will have to learn how to audit. He also said that 50% of the gain is from auditing, 50% from training and 50% from learning the discipline of application. When handling one’s own charge, or improving one’s own abilities in Solo, the discipline of application is a real plus. In my opinion, it’s vital.

  210. They probably have a big misunderstood on the word “transcend.” So they have just gone blank.

  211. Excuse me Gern. Who are you exactly? As in where did you train? What is your name? (Gern doesn’t seem correct but it could be).

    Etc. You wouldn’t want us to follow someone still wearing a hood or mask or behind a curtain, would you?

    That would REALLY be out ethics.

  212. Dear Tony,

    Will you get it with a question mark: When you die you die?

    Besides, sometimes myth excels reality.


  213. Marty — I’ve NEVER seen the OT VIII that George talks about when I was on the ship and it was only a few months after George and well before OT VIIIs were being sent to the ship for clean ups and stuff.

    Perhaps George could elaborate as to why he was asked to leave scientology. This was a new revelation he made on this blog. Apparently in 1988. I’ve NEVER heard any being asked to leave. I’ve heard being off-loaded etc etc but never asked to leave.



  214. Jean-François Genest

    Probably all 19 of them, simultaneously.
    Plus, there is Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou, who claims to be the rightful Louis XX (20) of France. I am surprised Pierre Ethier has not claimed himself as an “LRH-trained” Class XXIII (13) auditor.

  215. That is wall-worthy and succinct!

    I once asked a group if anyone had ever seen a snake turn into a stick, or vice versa. For a long moment, I got puzzled looks. Then a woman brightened, and said yes! She recalled driving a back road in Texas when she saw a huge rattlesnake on the shoulder.She steered clear of it and slowed to take a look. Then she saw that it was just a tree branch that happened ot have a sinuous shape like a snake. In that moment that she had labeled it a snake, it was a snake. That was her reality, and she would have passed any lie detector test asking if she had seen a snake.

    This points to the nature of reality. There are a number of “schools” in the field of ontology. One is positivism — the universe exists “out there” separate from observers and can be proven to be what it is. Another is post-positivism — yes, there is an objective universe existing separately from the perceiver, but we can only achieve closer and closer approximations of what it is as we test, experiment, etc.; we can never “get it” exactly. Another is constructivism — we create and live within a model of reality.

    Through the lens of ontology, I would say I am a post-positivist, constructivist, scientist (including that I do not agree with scientism, or the proposition that all arises from MEST and MEST explains all).

    Through this same lens, I think probably all religions are constructivist. They build a reality for their believers that may or may not be anchored in any way to an objective universe.

    In this same framework, one could argue that there are two religions that present a rather unique approach to constructivism. They are Buddhism and Scientology. Both actually attempt to _de_construct the humanly constructed model of reality to move out of our cultural “blinders” and into a realm where the construct of duality of self and thing disappears. In Scientology terms, that goal seeks as-is-ness and the eventual ability of a being to see that he/she is mocking it all up.

    So, indeed, labels are just that! They don’t change any external reality a bit. They can only influence perception and one’s construct.

  216. Mike, I never recognized the voice.

  217. Random and likely last comment…

    I’m well into the Lawrence Wright’s book. I found the book disturbing, eye opening, therapeutic and cathartic.

    Conclusions thus far: Prior to 1950, LRH led an adventurous, interesting life but was often highly unethical. He embellished his life story and accomplishments to a fault. Anyone who disputes this needs to get over it. Multiple viewpoints confirm it. He was an emotional wreck when he began to put Dianetics together. He had a strong intention to help himself and others to be better but part of that intention was for the purpose to leave his mark in the history books. He really did improve himself and others with his early Dianetics work. IMHO he made a major strategic error by not fessing up to his lifelong embellishments (lies) as well his unethical past. The smart move would have been to state the truth: He had improved himself through the use of Dianetics. If he had done so his biography would never have been an issue. But he didn’t and LRH’s propensity to embellish continued both about himself and what Dianetics and Scientology could do. It would seem that LRH was the one with a “self importance” button. Both LRH and Scientology would have been best served to stick to the facts.

    LRH was an amazing, contradictory man. There is much good in Dianetics and Scientology but LRH to often stated possibilities to be facts with regards to Scientology which along with the biographical embellishments (lies) have saddled the subject of Scientology with so much baggage it’s amazing it has survived all these years.

    The 1940s/50s were a different era. Most Americans didn’t know FDR was a cripple and philander and later the press carried JFKs water for him by covering up his poor health and promiscuity but LRH should have known better: He should have been 100% truthful. He emphatically was not.

    I have my opinion as to what happened later but I think it is fair to say LRH was really on to something but he crippled the subjects of Dianetics and Scientology by laying in lies from the beginning that were bound to be exposed at some time.

    For myself I’d probably be dead or in jail if not for LRH but the reverse of that is I’ve had much emotional trauma caused from my involvement in Scientology. I’m no way playing the victim as I’m living a great life but the fact is I’ve been kicked in the balls my fair of times by my involvement and I’m not willing to introvert and said it’s because of something I did.

    I think the subject of Scientology can still survive but only by the current civil war ending. I don’t know how that’s possible but I don’t see the subject surviving any other way. Perhaps when DM is six feet under or living in Bolivia a Scientology Lincoln will take his place.

    Anyone who wants to communicate directly can do so through Facebook.

    Peace & Love, Kevin

  218. Exactly, Mike.

    LRH worked in circles. Whenever he developed a new process or technique, he would observe it’s effects in application and always come back to it and correct any outpoints or even create a new process as an undercut to the gradient preventing the previous processes’ success.

    This is the normal way any technology evolves. It is the subject of heuristics.

    The thing that most people never think about is that while technology development usually never goes backwards, we can regress socially and spiritually – even ultimately to the point where we destroy ourselves so utterly that technological advancements are once again lost and the process of physiological evolution has to start again from scratch.

    The fact of the matter is that in our current state in the physical universe, spiritual beings must use technological and spiritual methods to stoke their spiritual fires if they once again wish to possess the attributes and aspects of the gods.

    The real question is this: What would you do upon achieving such godhood? Propitiate to other “lower” beings? Or have them propitiate to you?

    To me, this is the situation that LRH was trying to handle with Scientology. He was making the techniques of spiritual advancement available to all. Obviously that would require a lot more work than just helping beings who were already OT.

  219. Well, perhaps you aren’t very familiar with it….

  220. Old School

    Sorry, but I do not agree that Scientology “hinged” on any such thing at all.
    The way I see it, the philosophy of Scientology is a lot more encompassing than whether the entire route to full OT was ever mapped out or not.

    Some of the basic ideas that I got from Scientology are these.

    As the VOLUME of Theta is increased the whole existence of life on this planet benefits. As the QUALITY of Theta increases it effects the future quality of life on this planet (and perhaps elsewhere). As beings use their theta to dis-enturbulate En-theta and create more Theta, this whole sorry mess moves that much closer to becoming a lot more fun.

    If one is not making all of their dynamics more theta, the best that they can, at every level, then I seriously can not see how they will ever achieve “full OT”. To me OT is every bit as much a “doingness” as it is a “beingness” or a “havingness”

    In my opinion, getting there is where the game is going to be played, and where the real fun is going to be had.

    If Scientology “hinges” on anything, then I figure it “hinges” on what each and every one of us DO with its philosophy and its technologies, and our own increased abilities and Theta.

    Eric S

  221. I’m very familiar with it, I listened to hundred of LRH tapes for almost 40 years. Back to 1983 when I heard for the first time RJ 38, nobody told me anything, I just thought that it wasn’t LRH. I mean, it looks so artificial, and the way it’s validating the new management, it really looks like false.
    Nobody here has had this feeling while listening to this tape? Ulf are you really sure we talk about the seme thing? Have you been in the SO in 1983. And aside what Annie was saying, who really witnessed this?

  222. I’m not a Ron’s orger but I believe that Robertson was injustly rejected by the scientology community. He was the first in 1983 to have found out about David Miscavige. You’ve been all indoc against him and Mayo. Regardless of what they did later, they were the first to say no to Miscavige.

  223. I hear you!

  224. Once you have freed yourself to the level of OT VIII a vast universe opens up. Do you think that the narrow channels of bodily perception define the universe? Hardly. There is so much more to this universe than meets the human senses – both physically and spiritually. The permutations and combinations of theta and MEST are almost beyond count. That is YOUR research project. Call it OT MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM and get on with it!

  225. Sorry RD. You are misinformed. I knew Bill from the Apollo all the way to being the LAST person he was willing to talk to in the church when he was “on the run” escaping from the World Bank/Marcabian conspiracy that was literally pursuing him personally across the country. Believe me, I had a great deal of respect for Bill — he was my junior for a year and I was impressed by his lack of prima donna-ness. He got things done. But he went off the deep end, for real. By that time EVERYONE was an enemy. I knew him better than most and was sad to see him become what he ended up being.

  226. RD — obviously no facts will get in the way of your well informed opinion. So I am not going to bother any further. Annie was there when it was recorded. I heard the tapes with the instructions on how to edit it together. I read the despatch from him about it. I spoke to Annie, the only person that was with him. You ain’t going to get better than that because LRH and Annie are both dead. So, if that’s not enough to inform your opinion, nothing will. But what you believe is up to you. Knock yourself out.

  227. Thanks for sharing your unique experience and viewpoint.

  228. @ Carcha,
    Not sure what you mean when you talk about the ‘unreleased’ bridge. Do you mean no longer released? This chart you speak of was the chart when I got in: Ot 3, 3x and 7. Later, LRH added 4 and 5. There was alot of talk about 8,9,etc, etc. I’ve heard Ron talk about stages of OT way above this but there was no other actual info about such…just rumor line. LRH always did talk in terms of the never ending ability of theta, however, the bridge does not categorically produce such. There are those people who have completed the entire bridge and are not happy with the results and this is true now, and it was also true back in the 70’s. I can not say why. I can say that it isn’t so much a ‘before was great’ and now its not. That may appear to be true, but it doesn’t pan out. I know that the church today keeps making people do clear rundowns (when i was on solo mostly everyone I knew had to redo ccrd’s before entering the ot levels) and make people recheck stuff like their objectives. I know that ‘natural clear’ is no longer an attestation that is ‘allowed’ (despite LRH tech bulletin on such), and that so called psychosomatic ills still exist on folks who are OT. Back with the 70’s bridge there were OTs who were completed and were still gay. I could care less on a personal level, but LRH in DMSMH discusses this and places it with a list of perversions in the chapter on Psychosomatic Ilness. He states that Dianetics can handle psychosomatic ills. Consequently, if homosexuality is a psychosomatic illness, then it should be a piece of case that blows somewhere on the bridge. I don’t think it is a one solution deal, and on the other hand, who am I to say that it is a problem anyway. Ironically, psychiatry considered homosexuality to be a psychosomatic problem and created therapies to help people with getting rid of it. Scientology evidently sometimes does, and sometimes doesn’t. Sometimes people get their arthritis or some other chronic illness handled and sometimes they don’t. I know OT7’s and 8’s who got cancer…back in the day and now. The thetan in a body using a mind is a messy proposition, at best.
    All I am saying is that when the bridge was supposed to be at its best, there were still outpoints. And we can say, well it was the persons ethics, or it was out tech on the case, or this or that, but the fact remains that just because someone goes all the way up the bridge, then or now, and has been a ‘good’ in ethics person, shit still happens. My auditing went well, but this is not and has not been the case with everyone. Furthermore, even if the grade chart said what could be achieved it doesn’t mean it was happening. And do you think people who are in a group of others who think and believe in the same things will turn around and say…well, actually this or that didn’t get handled. I really can’t be full exterior with perception after 0T7, or I can’t be close to jupiter etc.? We all want ‘others to achieve’ but they don’t and they never ‘all’ have.

  229. Regular Dog formerly Underdog

    Maria, Oh, I see. Thanks for clarifying. That makes sense.

  230. @RD
    very enlightening. A friend of mine who died was a fairly recent OT 8 and he said the same thing regarding 8 being incomplete. His idea was that DM took part of it out to make up for the 9 that doesn’t exist. Sounds pausable.
    How do you know that nots and solo nots were never intened as OT levels?? Could you explain?

  231. thanks for reading my post.

  232. martyrathbun09

    No they didn’t. They dispersed to the winds despite being senior brass and friends of L. Ron Hubbard.

  233. I thought it was really interesting, actually. And you got me thinking about “total freedom”. If it weren’t so late I would find the reference for why LRH used that phrase, but as I recall it had to do with a universal strong purpose for freedom, and not so much the literal meaning of “total”. Anyway, I’m curious what you envision total freedom would be like, if you would be willing to comment on that.

  234. Gern Gaschoen

    I’m not asking anyone to follow anything, and certainly not me personally.

    I am asking for people to make the postulate that a real OT Org can be built in the Independent field. As soon as I see that start to happen, I’ll get out of Non-E and participate as a trained Auditor (Academy), Staff member (Exec Status II, OEC), and wearing the SO hat.

  235. When not’s was first issued in 1978, it was a rundown supposed to handle what ned was handling but on an OT. As it was too long to complete with an auditor, it was worked out in solo around 1980. That was not’s and solo not’s. Only one level actually.
    The originals OT5, 6 and 7 were entirely differents. They were level of OT abilities, like “operate exterior”. Actual OT levels.
    They were for no apparent reasons removed from the grade chart, and replaced by not’s audited called New OT5, the solo not’s course, new OTVI, and solo not’s auditing becoming new OT VII.
    The “old” OT level were simply removed, It’s a real obvious case of technical degrade as described on HCOPL “Technical Degrade”.
    If you can find a grade chart from 1978, it’s all in it. This grade chart for me is the last one which was pretty much on source.

  236. MaBu and Vicar, Who is to say what the magnitudes of import are for those you evaluate. It begs me to ask you; Are the results of or abilities to get those results of a highly trained and experienced auditor or practioner to be judged by others conclusions about what to use to judge them by? OR are the actual results of such practioners the sole yardstick to use. ALSO I want to ask you is There such a thing as an addiction to evaluate of another’s value? OR is it a responsible application of knowledge and wisdom to share with the world your criticisms of and evaluations of others???

    Marty’s opening of a discussion close to my heart, philosophy, is at the core of the very points you two have made and which could or could not be in need of some tech application. It may be that these people you are evaluating and describe as addicts might help you with? It might be that the enlightenment necessary is to allow you to open doors and walk through where you have decided there is no door?

  237. So just what are you saying, that there isn’t an abominable snowman?

  238. Fly on the wall, Joe and Jean-Francois, Ouch are you guys operating on self-determined conclusions and decisions or are you walking to the beat of some other drummer? Mike is trying to relay information and the banter between you about someone I’ve met and find to be a very charming and intelligent man is disquieting. Let’s try to stay on topic here and not get in to petty behavior that mimics cob and his minions when they have no other point to make. Please? I don’t have to agree with Pierre on every point to find his values and contributions to admire. I also don’t want to assume or take data on vias about what he does or doesn’t believe, tout or want to have attributed to him. Wouldn’t it be great if Pierre himself was on this thread talking for himself? That’s what I envision. Do you?

  239. According to surveys done in early 80’s as to why people where willing to pay for OT’s levels AND what they expected by going all the way up the bridge, it is a FACT. >90% who were on or, trying to on OT levels were doing it because they expected to reach full OT as I laid out above. So, for you personally it may not have been true but for the vast, VAST majority it is the case. Hence, Scientology will be a feel better tech. That is defacto anyway as there is no bridge to full OT. (see data in this blog post confirming that).

  240. Yes, Virginia, there is an abominable snowman….

  241. Crashing Upwards

    Gayle, my 2 comments were in regards to applying ethics conditions with regard to addiction and raising confront to handle conditions. It had nothing to do with any person alive or dead, real or imagined. If my statements can be related to an evaluation about anyone or anything, its that a training level or status achieved or bestowed does not necessarily equate to real world application in that persons own life. The examples are all around us and likley apply to each and every one of us, myself included. No one is perfect.

  242. Crashing Upwards

    Gayle, thank you for standing up for Pierre and speaking to his charm and intelligence. I am sure its true. As Pierre is an auditor, in my view he is among the most valuable of beings.

  243. The higher levels of any spiritual transcendence cannot be bought at any price… That’s what walking the walk is all about…and that can mean a long walk…most times alone

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