Can I Get A Witness?

At its core Scientology revolves around the auditing process.  The word auditing comes from the Latin root audire which means to listen, or to listen and compute.  The entire purpose of a Scientology auditor is to provide a construct through which an individual may look at his or her life in such an honest fashion that that which is viewed no longer has a hold on that person.  Scientology postulates that ‘charge’ (mental energy) ‘erases’ through that process.  One could just as easily postulate that one’s witnessed experience objectifies.  That is, one’s experience moves from the subjective (part of, and thus affecting, oneself) to the objective.  In that construct, matters of the mind that tend to drive one on an automatic basis are no longer hidden and automatic.  Objectivized matter of the mind is no more capable of driving you than any other person or idea that you can clearly see as apart from yourself. Your own choice in the matter of what to do, what to choose, what to pursue and what to react to is restored to you.  Each time one witnesses in this wise one recognizes that much more the true nature of self, apart from, and thus less subject to, matter, energy, space and time.  Witnessing led the Buddha toward recognizing the impermanent nature of matter, energy, space and time.

It is my view that any time devoted to honestly viewing the content of your mind, your experience, is progress in moving the external world back out of one’s head where it no longer drives you.  There used to be a saying in Scientology, ‘any auditing is better than no auditing.’  No matter what processes, what grades, what levels attained or not, every hour spent objectivizing the subjective is net gain.  There is so much emphasis included in Scientology about the attainment of grades and levels, and purported permanent states of consciousness that the failure to attain very high on the Scientology Bridge (the chart of progressive grades and levels of spiritual attainment) tends to serve to invalidate the work a person did execute in witnessing his or her own mind.

Scientology contains so much dogma asserting superiority to and difference from all other forms of witnessing that people tend to lose site that they spent a tremendous amount of time and effort doing just that, witnessing.  I use the term ‘witnessing’ because it is a generic term that captures what is at the heart of all effective psychotherapeutic and spiritual practices.  Most forms of meditation (Buddhist, Hindu, Taoist, et al), most forms of psychotherapy, and Scientology too, create a desirable effect to the extent the individual applying it fully, honestly views the mind.

Any meditator who discounts effective psychotherapy that accomplishes the same result as meditation, or any psychotherapist who discounts effective meditation that accomplishes the same result as psychotherapy, is as narrow minded and prejudiced as any Scientologist who discounts meditation and psychotherapy wholesale.   Corollary, any former Scientologist who discounts his own blood, sweat and tears exerted in confronting his own demons with Scientology is selling himself short.  Witnessing is witnessing.  Meditation, effective psychotherapy, and Scientology are all different methods of helping – and are workable to the degree they allow –  an individual to witness his own mind and its experiences.

Do yourself a favor.  Try to consider that someone who has spent time in other similar practices has spent time witnessing just as you did in Scientology.  See if that doesn’t open up an interesting world of increased affinity, reality and communication.  Just as importantly, validate the time and effort you put in likewise.  You might find you are in better shape than you have previously permitted yourself to believe.

145 responses to “Can I Get A Witness?

  1. Nice, Marty. You are creating peace among different practicioners.

    There should be peace, in my opinion, as long as the intention is to honestly help. There should be 1000s of different ways to get rid of lies. To say that I can, and others can’t (can’t, not don’t) is gross suppression, in my opinion. And my bet is that the person who says that, can’t. A liability of considering that just a single philosophy/religion/science can, is that we shut doors to possibilities. That cannot be for the greatest good. It seems like an effort to control (badly) to me.

  2. Nice post dude! +1

  3. Wonderful post Marty.

    I was forever saying to a friend … watch your mind. It is the witnessing of your mind that enables awareness to become infused with your mind.

    And with that awareness the mind – the ordinary, not buddha mind – releases it’s grip on the “owner” —

    What we want, I believe, is to discover our buddha mind or buddha nature, which is genuine OTness – compassionate and aware.


  4. Maybe it is just a matter of Scn dogma that I haven’t yet shed, or simply an ignorance on my part of the various methods that are available and what they are capable of, but so far I still have the impression that the Scn method of witnessing compared to other methods is more systematic and faster at zeroing in on barriers in the mind that need to be witnessed in order to be freed from them.

    This is assuming that the auditing is done with an auditor who understands the basic principles of Scientology and applies the tech in a way that is based on those principles. And this is not necessarily assuming that Scn handles all barriers to being oneself . Other methods are possibly needed to complement Scientology in order to be fully free of the barriers that limit one’s potential.

  5. “…every hour spent objectivizing the subjective is net gain.” True Dat! I would add that it should be an ongoing, regular activity. We’ve all seen people far up the Bridge who stopped looking at their own mind years ago, and have ‘subjectivized’ as their own so many ideas given to them from without, that they are now less enlightened than the newbie who just got blown out of his or her head doing TRs.

  6. Yvonne Schick

    Ah, yes.

    I had spent much time with other practices before Scn. I had experienced genuine major improvements for myself and used those practices to help others do the same. Wanting more technology for doing this, I started into Scn.

    All along, I had an issue with the need to totally invalidate those techniques and the gains that had been had in order to continue the Scn path. Now I can easily see my own foolishness in that.

    My door is now open again to any idea, any study, any technique or technology that will move me on up a little higher in my own awareness, my own compassion, my own effectiveness or my ability to relieve the suffer or increase the joy of others.

    However, Ken says my spending limit is $29.95. 🙂

  7. I agree with this statement. Any looking, resolution is good. All searching leads to finding.

    All looking is good, when that looking addresses actual realities that lead to freedom and knowledge.

  8. David St Lawrence aka oldauditor

    Thanks for encouraging us to take a new look at the unifying principles of spiritual counseling. The more I audit, the more I realize that there are many ways to help an individual look at his or her life in such an honest fashion that that which is viewed no longer has a hold on that person.

    To your call of “Can I get a witness?”, I would like to shout out a hearty AMEN from my distant corner of the independent spiritual counseling world.

  9. I would F/N with what you said. Marildi. But not all have your point of view what SCN is about. And not all are willing to discuss it. I have met some important figures for whom it is only enough to tell you their titles, to win over your arguement. And if you don’t agree, you are abberated, criminal, pts, sp, unethical, stupid, crazy and the list goes on…

    Anyway, I know you meant Hubbard’s works, but Scientology doesn’t mean just that for most people. To break their monopoly, many ways must exist.

  10. Realizations are independent from the procedures used that bring them about.

    There are no ‘Scientology realizations of spirit’ and ‘meditation realizations of spirit’. There is just knowing.

    Direct perception is an innate soul ability that a technique can reveal when actualities are perceived, thus causing cognitions.

    The problem, in my opinion, starts when procedures suggest what actualities are to be perceived.

    Faith in things that do not have a basis in reality but cause realizations in spite of that fact, will lead to an inaccurate comprehension of the nature of that realization and the realities surrounding it. Thus an inaccurate world view.

    Especially when those realities do not address the actual comprehension of the person, but rely on faith or some external validation for verification.

    Then imagination can become truth because so and so says or some external verification says.

  11. Yvonne Schick

    Amen, Sister.

  12. roger weller

    it is so true,witnessing,thats what i did in auditing.and in meditation.witnessing is essential for the separation of the self from the not self.i meditated on all i was not, i am not the body, the mind, my feelings, idea, thoughts,space ,time, then you get to a place where you abide in the self. then there is no I or ego. i am that, in auditing the same thing happens. you separate from it all and you are free.

  13. Mary Rathernotsay

    Hi Marty
    Lovely article. I couldn’t agree more. Like Spyros said, It’s nice to see you working in the direction of Peace.
    Here’s a great song by Citizen Cope that may be apropo:
    Peace River
    I come from a place, run by a man named Mr. Page
    Took everything and he wanted more
    Had a gun and a knife and he use ’em both
    He smack ya in the head in public
    He knock ya down and he think nothing of it
    Put your head down, swallow your pride
    If ya wanna live to see the night
    Guess I had my fill…I ran from the valley to the top of the hill
    But even though I got away
    I couldn’t shake Mr Page
    I fulfilled all my desires, but I couldn’t put out the fire
    Thing going in my head, that I need to put to rest
    So I could take off, fly off, get a little bit of step in my walk
    Jack London been giving me a call and I’m done fallin’
    Take off, fly off, get a little bit of step in my walk
    Swim in Peace River for a month, Oh darling!
    Pack my bags and ran, to a place I swear I never been
    Coming from a cowardly stance, had turned me into a cowardly man
    Y’all wouldn’t believe what I seen!
    Mr Page he was broke at the knees
    Somebody so brave and strong
    Just turned weak and worn
    The fear it disappeared
    And the hate it followed it
    Could the place it occupied
    Be replaced by Love and Light?
    So I can take off, fly off…Get a little bit of step in my walk
    Swim in Peace River for a month, Oh darling!
    Take off fly off, get a little bit of step in my walk
    Jack London been giving me a call
    And I’m done falling!
    Swim in Peace River for a month…
    Oh darling!
    From Citizen Cope One Lovely Day

    I agree also…I have had just as many great wins meditating as I’ve had in session. Swimming in Peace River for a month…!

  14. Summerwind

    I am in SOOO much better shape now because I can look at my mind…see what I have done wrong (or right for that matter) and if need be forgive my self…forgive anyone or anything involved and move on…There is no moving on in the Church…they won’t allow it until they think you’re ready…..I think it should be renamed The Church of Sufication….BUT having said that….I also think that it’s a path and a good one for some….I think we are all going to end up in the same place…we just take different paths to get there.

  15. I have also come to encompass understanding of many “other practices.” (Pretty funny, that we are the newcomers and we have labeled them as “imitations.”) Even the word “other” is an estrangement. Once I arrived at the realization that I am causing the energy patterns in my life which result in situations I would like to change, I saw that many other approaches can help. However, I cannot evaluate how difficult it would be to reach this stage without the assistance of having gone clear. That is for those in “other practices” to evaluate.

  16. Thank you for the validation , couldn’t come at a better time.

  17. Scientology statistics – 2012 update

    From time to time I am counting the attestations of the upper levels in order to have an idea of the condition of the Church of Scientology.

    I posted the 2012 update here:

  18. Extremely well written summary. I have never read such a well organized
    expression of a new look at Scientology.

    When I returned from Korea after the Viet Nam war in 1970,
    I investigated the field of psychotherapy. It contained
    nothing of value. So I tried Scientology.

    I remember my early days in auditing in the 1970’s with great
    fondness for the technology and my auditor. The courses
    were also simple, effective and reasonably priced.
    In addition, the book “Self Analysis” presented a simple
    self-help technique and it was far better than any form of
    psychotherapy available. I remember living in the “Village”
    in lower Manhattan and even then the “Village Voice” had
    started its negative coverage of Scientology. In those days,
    I ignored the newspaper because my experience with scientology
    was positive. We had a little self-help community.

    As Scientology changed during the 1980’s, I stayed with
    the self-help end of the movement for as long as I could.
    As Scientology evolved into a narrative based religion,
    it lost its effective analysis of Karma. After my OT8
    experience on the Freewinds and the abrupt turn of the
    movement to violence, I had no other alternative but
    to depart in 1989.

    Now fast forward to 2013 and this blog does a great job
    in reforming the movement. Although I do not practice
    scientology at present, I fully support all efforts to
    re-instate the intrinsic self-help nature of the religion.

    George M . White

  19. Today’s blog is music to my ears. “Many paths, same goal.” Once one has embraced this idea, it becomes so much easier to grant beingness to others, and with that, to possess a feeling of compassion, understanding, and humanity.

  20. Awesome post, Marty.
    I love it.

  21. Great post Marty. Witness!

    Writing is a great form of therapy also and I have seen by the fact that people, including myself, can sit down and share our thoughts on this blog, with out getting bashed, beaten and slammed, has been a great form of therapy in itself. We have been itsaing on this blog for a long while and some of us daily. And I know the great value that has been for me.

    Thank you for all that you have done and are, and encouraged us to be think and say.

    Thank you all for listening. For being there and communicating with sincerity, interest, and curiosity. Making all of the conversations we always thought would not be possible, possible.

    We have gone way beyond “surviving” !

  22. fcdcclassof74

    I too dabbled and studied various spiritual paths and as I studied Scientology initially, early on I was drawn because Ron tested and upgraded throughout the developement of the tech looking for that which worked. There is no reason that other practices getting to the same effect cannot be respected. There is more than one way around the barn and piousness is destuctive. Great article you are always thought provoking. ARC Bill Dupree

  23. one of those who see

    Tremendously validating piece Marty. As a person who didn’t make it onto the OT Levels in the Church. This took away the invalidation from that and validated all I did do. In many ways I am in very good shape because of all the witnessing I did do. And I absolutely hated that if a person, in his search for freedom/ enlightenment did go to psychotherapy or Est etc.. It was an issue in the Church and would KEEP coming up as an issue. David Mayo spoke about people and other practices in a talk of his which I downloaded and loved. May have been the one on Ilegal pcs. I’ll check. And truthfully, I came into Scientology to be free, not to achieve a named level. You wrote: “Your own choice in the matter of what to do, what to choose, what to pursue and what to react to is restored to you.” This is what I wanted. I have achieved it to some extent and still have more to do.

  24. In the years since I left the C of $ I’ve had three conversations with newly-made friends that really did throw me off until I figured this out for myself. These people told me that at various times in their lives they sought “professional help” after very tough emotional times…an abusive and violent set of parents, an abusive husband, and one who just couldn’t get a grip in life. Each person found definite relief. When they told me this I couldn’t believe it. I wondered “Are they just fooling themselves?” But my own training as an auditor told me that they were being honest, and their body language, tone and eye contact told me that they were telling the truth. I’m glad I observed what I observed and knew that I had observed it. It was a big step in disconnecting myself from that “invisible grip of control.”

  25. one of those who see

    Here is the link to the David Mayo talk called “There are no illegal pcs” It’s #9

  26. Scientology contains so much dogma asserting superiority to and difference from all other forms of witnessing that people tend to lose site that they spent a tremendous amount of time and effort doing just that, witnessing. I use the term ‘witnessing’ because it is a generic term that captures what is at the heart of all effective psychotherapeutic and spiritual practices.”

    Marty, wonderfully stated.

    That has been precisely my view from the beginning and it is at the core of the bait and switch of our experience of truth, from our own control center into the hands of LRH and Scientology.

    It is very difficult to articulate, because it is each subjective viewpoint of truth that gets carefully roped and derailed into the group’s owned viewpoint of Scientology.

    But we can ultimately witness the pernicious effects of Scientology thus delivered, on Scientologists dependency, narrow-mindedness and heavy indoctrination, all the way down to becoming subservient and obedient to the Church, sort of lifelong slaves to it.

    The entire effect of this spin is to corner Truth into one single viewpoint, it is sort of collapsing all the top buttons of the Chart of Attitudes, and pushing them through a new installed filter called Scientology.

    So top Chart Attitudes like “I ‘am “, I know, Everyone, Always, Owns All, Differences, Cause, Truth, etc, get somehow lost in translation. And we end up with “Source and the only technology that can save mankind.”

    It has been done before; it does not work because it is Not True.

    That is the stupidity and insanity of Religion.

    It is a proven method of entrapping that who is source less, all encompassing, that manifests itself in an infinity of viewpoints and thus is pathless and ever present.

    Truth belongs to all and to no one exclusively and so it can be experienced by all.

    It is time to wake up from this collective trance.

  27. Wonderfully expressed, Marty. Wish I had been able to say what you said, but I will happily steal it and make it my own.

  28. marildi

    I also held the idea that Scientology was the best method of releasing one from one’s travails.

    Recently, however, I have been reading a book on Buddhist meditation. Although there has been no mention of any technology for viewing one’s past in a manner similar to Scientology, there still is technology. There are technologies for redirecting one’s attention, quieting the mind, and postulating, and working toward achieving, higher states of consciousness.

    These are not technologies that I have found within Scientology’s technologies. They are somewhat alluded to, but not delineated.


  29. Marty

    I have come to the personal conclusion that one needs to strike a balance between rummaging through one’s past, living in the present, and creating one’s future.

    Looking at one’s past is very therapeutic, up to a point, but I feel that it contains the liability that one become somewhat addicted to rummaging memories of the past to give present time relief. It can almost take the form of miss assignment of responsibility if taken to excess. One can easily be wooed into looking into the past for all of the “solutions” for their life.

    Clearing the “held down sevens” is of inestimable value if one wishes a sane approach to living, but one has to balance that with now using that sanity to actually create a better future. One is not likely to find his future in his past, no matter how minutely he inspects it.

    Scientology ethics, at its core, is more directed toward dealing with one’s present, and creating the future. To me, “ethics” is at least as important as “auditing” if one wishes “to move on up a little higher”. ( I am not talking about “ethics” as atonement for one’s wrongdoings, or “suffering on up the conditions”. I’m talking about postulating and actively pursuing one’s concept of optimum survival, at any, and all levels of awareness.)

    Throw in “Admin Scales” and “data evaluation technology” and you have a very powerful package.

    So, yes, I consider “witnessing”, however one achieves it, valid therapy, but it is how you use those experiences to create the present and the future that is the measure of the being. (not his “consciousness” but his “Dynamic”)


  30. It’s almost like the program was set for “find something/anything” and hang on to it for dear life. What a boring world it would be if there were only One reality. My two cents and once again, thanks Marty for continuing on this path.

  31. martyrathbun09

    Attainment of Clear ought to wrap that up – though I concede it does not in most folks’ practices.

  32. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    Very interesting perspective Marty.
    After getting rid of the Scientology indoctrination which took years for me, also with the help of this blog, and still isn’t yet fully achieved, I’m just using reason to solve the problems of life, no technique, no way of thinking just looking and looking and comparing and thinking it over, discussing it with others , thinking again about it and at the end I come up with good solutions that work. I just need lots of time for my thinking ! It’s kind of a training, and I become faster and faster in it. I’m expanding at a faster and faster rate on my dynamics as I never had while being in.
    Honestly I would fear to go into session and give myself into the hands of an auditor, it would be a loss that I’m not able to solve my problems by myself and need an auditor for it. It’s kind of giving up my self determinism and deciding that I can’t do it on my own.
    Sometimes it can happen that i blow charges of my nots case when it comes into view, just with some communication and blowing by inspection !
    While in the RCS, I never would dared of but would have been a victim of my case and hoping to gather enough money to handle it. Now I’m fearless of my case. When something comes I look at it until it blows ! I’m a clear ! and this is an ability gained !

    Nevertheless it makes me sad when I look around at people which can use reason, already in very young age, are very succesful and never heard of any tech but are just using reason.
    i come to conclusions about life that my son already had when he was 20 years old.
    This is a big loss of about 30-40 years having given up my mind at the entrance of the Church of Scientology and Hubbard or others were thinking for me !

    Nevertheless the freedoms I won are fabulous !
    Continue to write about the truth.

    A last remark, which is also sad is that perhaps 50-60% of my auditing hours were used (and I’d about 4-600 hours ) to handle the problems that were created by the church itself. Problems that I hadn’t in the beginning and that I don’t have now anymore ! LOL…..

    Yeah, when one looks at life and inspects it thoroughly it can become easier and easier !

    Have a good day !

  33. Eric, thanks for your comment. it just so happens that I have recently become interested in Buddhism myself and have been asking a Buddhist friend questions, and started reading a book he recommended. Your mention of it having a technology made me smile because even before I started taking an active interest in it, I had already recognized a while back that it does in fact have a technology. Actually, Buddhism was what I had in mind when I wrote this part of my post above:

    “And this is not necessarily assuming that Scn handles all barriers to being oneself. Other methods are possibly needed to complement Scientology in order to be fully free of the barriers that limit one’s potential.”.

  34. Sypros, thanks for acknowledging my point. I understand the “Scientology” you are talking about too, but the Scientology in the OP is the one I was referring to. And as you probably know by now, I have never been able to see that beyond a certain point of discussing the evils of the CoS brand of Scientology and calling that “Scientology” does more than fan the flames of the general notion that this is THE meaning of Scientology – unless, as Marty does, you include the idea of its core meaning too. You sometimes do that yourself, and that’s the Scientology I think should be promoted. 😉

  35. Sabine Waterkamp

    I think if one’s purpose is to be a better person and to work on it every day, it doesn’t really matter what kind of religion or practice you use.
    If you validate the purpose in a being, you will get a better being.

  36. Gayle Smith aka TroubleShooter


    I have ARC for other avenues one pursues toward spiritual awakening, enlightenment, progression. or whatever one calls it. I was so head down and nose to the grindstone studying, applying, perfecting and correcting and more applying of the tech I DID chose for my own path of spiritual growth that I never gave it a thought as to what other routes were out there. KSW #1 for me meant to do what your doing when your doing it as regards Scientology tech. It still does.

    As an ordained minister I took away from my studies a great deal of admiration for the vastness of the interest people have spiritually speaking. Our world is full of people that believe in a higher power because they believe there is more to life than MEST. I didn’t think they were all a bunch of idiots because they believed something I knew very little to nothing about. and they knew little to nothing of what I’d decided to pursue. I was fairly flabbergasted at how Eckhart Tolle’s THE POWER OF NOW described his method of witnessing. It was as though he read Dianetics and then wrote a book about his ZEN route to a state like Clear using a completely different approach in how to overcome the grip of the reactive mind. Fascinating read.

    I have had to weed through the world of mis-, dis- and mal- information about health and diet knowing that there is some truth here and some there and not so much over yonder but it’s my reality that is being applied toward my study. If Scientology isn’t being given and received as the gift and opportunity or invitation to look and see what’s true for yourself then it’s not being applied correctly. The man I learned this tech from wanted people to be free and to create positive effects that improved life around them from an understanding smile, a helping hand or listening ear or a barn razing to help others out the tech was meant to get you OUT there in life and improve it.

    Honestly that is the biggest lie that exists in the cofs is that false pr of how this is what they and by that of course I mean the ias are supposedly doing. If it’s not an APPLIED philosophy that does reflect its benefits in how one treats others around them there is no possibility for there to be spiritual growth and so why waste the time. That’s what my yardstick on the validity of any form of self-improvement.

  37. Roger,
    Nicely stated, your observations ring very true to me.

  38. Hi Yvonne,

    Here’s a terrific book that will be well under budget, leaving you about $15.00 for ice cream and a small trip to Sephora 🙂

    “When Things Fall Apart” Pema Chodron (available on Amazon)


  39. Thank you, That was really quite refreshing.

  40. Great post Marty.
    I have always believed that others could and did have “case gain” with or without Scientology. The same way I believe that they can get “tone arm action” without being on an e-meter. (if they are as-ising something).
    I especially liked the part where you say to give ourselves more credit than maybe we had been doing. I think that is excellent advice.

  41. “A last remark, which is also sad is that perhaps 50-60% of my auditing hours were used (and I’d about 4-600 hours ) to handle the problems that were created by the church itself. Problems that I hadn’t in the beginning and that I don’t have now anymore ! LOL…..”

    Yes Roget, that’s why I’ve been roaring lately too. I’m pissed to realise that in the final analysis I gained more case than I wasted –maybe because I didn’t have enough $ to go through all the Bridge (?). I don’t know. But I can tell, that I’ve been using other techniques to handle my Scientology ridges–and they are some nasty ones- to my great relief.

  42. The greatest irony of all, is that I ‘became’ much more a body than I was prior to SCN that I didn’t even know what a thetan is. For years I was dissapointed that I couldn’t exteriorise while I wasn’t really fixed inside my head in the first place 😛

  43. Very well written and useful analysis Marty. … ‘any auditing is better than no auditing.’ Indeed what tech gets through I’ve always found that to be beneficial, in spite of the disgrace that “no auditing” or rehashing wholesale case cs’ing is the flavor of the day, every day the current regime.

  44. Nice post Marty!
    ” Corollary, any former Scientologist who discounts his own blood, sweat and tears exerted in confronting his own demons with Scientology is selling himself short.”
    Its been interesting to me to see just how much I have gained from auditing/training after having left the church. All it took was to recall what I was like before auditing/training and what I was like after it. And since having left the invalidation of the church, where now the members have to feel guilty for having a cup of coffee instead of donating the money to the ideal orgs, life is good!

  45. I’d like to share a recent experience in applying “other practices”:

    Dark clouds were looming over my marriage. In fact, both of us, myself and my wife, were idealizing separation of the marriage. At first, no solution was in sight. However, the thought of destroying everything we both of us had created over the past 9 years seemed also very painful.

    With the decision to learn more about the situation I found a lot of data, including advices that separation would be the “best” solution. I disagreed!

    After a lot of research I found “cognitive behavioral therapy” (Psychology) which I used to assist my wife to improve the situation. But, there was also myself, after all, a situation in a marriage does involve two people. I found some very helpful data in Hermetism.

    Using data I had acquired from cognitive behavioral therapy and Hermetism I addressed the situation head-on with my wife. We communicated in a somewhat sane manner. I asked my wife to answer as truthfully as she could. She was at first hedging due to considerations to hurt my feelings. I asked her questions and she answered them as truthfully as she could. Then she asked me questions or I had prompted her to ask questions directed at myself which I answered as truthfully as I could. Then, after a while, she made a statement which hit me so hard and forcefully which made me realize a severe falsehood/lie which I had carried along unknowingly throughout our entire marriage. I could not hold back the tears (the last time I was in tears was more than 20 years ago), my wife fell in tears as well; simultaneously, I could perceive that a whole package of false identities/valences (false personalities) disappeared in my universe, including the “hard as chrome steel valence” which I had unknowingly assumed during my 10 years Sea Org carrier. It felt like a thick glove was pulled off from myself as a spiritual being. The resurgence and improvement of Elan vital was and still is tremendous. Needless to say, the marriage problems are gone and our level of communication is better than ever before.

    In retrospect, while I had definitely gains and wins in my more than 500 hours of auditing in the Church of Scientology, nothing compares to what I experienced recently with that “other practice” which factually is not written up as a procedure anywhere that I’m aware of.

    The following paragraph is for Scientology auditors only and does contain Scientology terminology:

    Essentially, the procedure involved switching of roles from auditor to pc with every single cycle of communication during the “session” with each person taking all-determined responsibility for the situation. I’m a Grade 0 completion and otherwise just had sec checks and some FPRD. I’ve also audited successfully a twin on the RPF on LX lists (never had auditor training other than the Golden Age of Tech Read-It-Drill-It-Do-It-Training on the RPF) which resulted in a change of valence in my twin, other RPF members had also noted the positive change in behavior in my twin. My wife had very little involvement with Scientology, she read a few basic books, did one extension course and watched 2 event videos at the local Scientology Org, no other services; otherwise she is of Christian faith with a lot of empathy, however, not a member of any organized religion. From a Scientology perspective the aforementioned procedure was done over out-ruds, no TRs training on the part of my wife, no attention to auditors code, etc, no extensive auditor training line-up and due to use of freely available knowledge no costs. Just approx. 50 – 60 hours of research. Another assisting factor was our dog with his harmonizing nature.

    Besides of a remarkably improved marriage (second dynamic) I also got rid of a long-term compulsion on a personal level (first dynamic), and all with no side effects. I’ve not revealed any specifics of what blew which did cause the resurgence, however, I’m fully aware of the factors and mechanics involved.

    Note: I do not advice to copy the procedure since I’ve left out very essential parts and it will most likely cause more damage than do anything good without the required knowledge and essential preparatory steps.

    I’ve disconnected from Scientology at the beginning of 2010 and Marty’s blog was very essential in finding the truth about Scientology and in recovering from the bad effects (frequent nightmares, trouble with all kind of relationships, etc.) since leaving the Sea Org in 2001.

    In my estimation, while Dianetics and Scientology auditing technology does provide some useful means to resolve conditions in life, there is the very unfortunate fact of falsehoods and mind-control technology woven into the fabric of the body of Scientology materials and it does NOT have all answers to life and despite the extensive material it provides a very limited World view.

    As unbelievable as it may seem I do attest that the above is a true account of my experiences.

    In closing, I’d like to forward my unconditional love to you Marty and contributors who have provided a new look at things, and please keep up the good work and keep on moving up a little higher!


  46. Typo correction: Sea Org “carrier” should read “career”

  47. Μarty today I delivered a nerve assist to a guy with a bad pain on the back. He was bent and in pain. After 20 minutes he could stand straight and smile. I gave him my card if he wanted more.

    Scientology is unique. Its processes, as you very well describe them, make an individual look at his or her life in such an honest fashion that that which is viewed no longer has a hold on that person.

    They are scientific.

    Those processes I apply them as such. I don’t alter them.

    And I never allowed my affinity to be alloyed for any other field or followers of other practices. The type of a Scientologist you are referring to I think is the Cof$ brand, we have been through hell so we knew better and used Scientology to get out of it, too. In any case I don’t belong to that category and I believe that we are not superiors. We are just more responsible because what we have in our hands works. Big difference.

  48. Surprise: I’m really happy for you that you were able to sort through your marriage troubles … and glad that you were able to experience another practice that was so helpful to you.

    I’ve noticed after years of reading this blog that often people will compare the years on staff and/or auditing AGAINST the short time out “in the world” or the quickness that another tech brought them.

    And often I have the feeling that some are saddened by the years spent on staff and consider it more or less wasted — same with the auditing.

    What I’ve observed watching people change buddhist teachers is often they will say how MUCH they are gaining from this new teacher — kinda discounting the old teacher.

    BUT — what isn’t considered is PERHAPS the very gains they might be having now in LIFE that are coming relatively quickly are because of what they learned or got from auditing — HOWEVER poorly it was administered.

    In other words — you are where you are because this is where you are …

    It couldn’t be any other way.

    According to Yoda — if he didn’t say it, he could have 🙂


  49. Surprise, I am very happy to hear the successful actions you take to salvage your marriage. Whatever helps is a valid process, as we said. Nobody is against anyone except some few SPs.

    And I do sympathise with your poor and bad experiences in the Sea Org.

    In essence to me Scientology became LABELS, OT VIII, OT VII, OT BLA BLA, Auditor Class bla bla… but… but it looks like few of those got down to some basic Understandings of how and what it’s all about. So, we get the results we get and the treatment we got from Management.

    It looks like Scientology emphasises the mental aspect more than the spiritual one for the broader masses. They wouldn’t read a lot, they wouldn’t just grab the PDC (a non confidential lecture along with other non confidential lectures) and just start seeing more of what’s there in the spiritual side of life… Theta. IMHO they are on the Effort band, not even up to emotion… they are trying to digest datum after datum, word after word ( I am very strict on words and I think too many just squirrel the word clearing tech) so they drown in just reading data.

    Then the Emotional band is poisoned by a very bad management which sees everything in terms of “workability” (= did we make enough money and enough labels?) and there goes Scientology.

    Actual Reason is not there. Because Reason is long term Survival. How can there be long term survival if you cannot include new people, even psychiatrists?

    And of course I am not talking about Aesthetics because that band is yet untapped on this planet, as Aesthetics to me (and this is my own opinion and conclusion as to what Aesthetics really is) is the creation of phenomena at will… and we cannot create Theta phenomena at will… All we can normally attain is Reason and that is the upper strata. Of course there can be few exceptions who do attain phenomena of the Aesthetic band.

    With all this I wanted to say that real Scientology is not to blame maybe. It’s those new guys who come to know it on this planet and try to understand it first and then apply it and they don’t perform nicely either. But the subject is what it is. It maybe vast but why wouldn’t a thetan start absorbing it like hell in this life time? It looks like a lot cannot and I attribute that to a problem of understanding more than anything else. Old Ron was right when on the Briefing Course he tried to undercut the gradient and went back to give a technology of understanding how to understand. That problem still remains and plagues us all. As I say many times “we speak different languages”. In other words it all boils down to what one has as Concepts not just a vocabulary (we could call it a Conceptulary or something, how much he understands of what phenomena) and how much can he apply as processes solving certain Phenomena of the Mind and Spirit in life. We are far from perfect understanding and application of Scientology and the current scene is just an indicator of this.

  50. Gayle, thanks. I believe you are one of the few who broke through to the other side. This song is for you.

  51. I agree, itsaing here has been very therapeutic and everything can be said openly thanks to Marty.

  52. David Miscavige you are my main squeeze now

  53. Frank A. Gerbode wrote of a method known as traumatic incident reduction (TIR).[citation needed] He is an Honors graduate of Stanford University and later pursued graduate studies in philosophy at Cambridge University. He received his medical degree from Yale University, and completed a psychiatric residency at Stanford University Medical Center in the early 1970s.

    Gerbode is the author of numerous papers and articles, which have been published in the Journal of Neurochemistry, the International Journal of Neuropharmacology, the Journal of Rational Emotive and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, IRM Newsletter and elsewhere. They include at least one article in Nature [1]

    He teaches and lectures internationally, and is the author of Beyond Psychology: An Introduction to Metapsychology (ISBN 1-887927-00-X), published in 1988.[2] This book provided the first published description of TIR.

    He edited the special issue “Trauma treatment techniques : innovative trends” [3] of Haworth Press’s Journal of aggression, maltreatment & trauma,

    From 1986 to 1995, Gerbode founded the Institute for Research in Metapsychology and the Center for Applied Metapsychology in Palo Alto, California.[citation needed] Today, this function is fulfilled by the Traumatic Incident Reduction Association,[4] a division of Applied Metapsychology International.

    Gerbode currently resides in Sonoma, California.

  54. Gayle Smith aka TroubleShooter

    Aw Theo that’s nice, thank you.

  55. Bruce Pratt

    I have had the most interesting discussions with a few others this way. My education and experience in and with Scientology allowed me to understand the other person as well as provide him some evidence of my duplication of him. Besides the effects that caused him, they gave me some of the most spiritually aware conversations I’ve ever had.


  56. Its good that some research in this area.

  57. Aquamarine

    I love this post of yours, Marty. For me, Scientology auditing and training have been the only actions that have helped me move on up higher and be happier and more able and interested in life and so on. But that’s me, and while its tempting for me to say that Scientology is the only way to achieve these, because it has been my own truth, yet I know that there are other paths, and if something else works for others I am so OK with that. No one should have to experience restrictions on their spiritual beingness, on their reach for enlightenment, no matter what path is chosen, Reaches of this sort must be wholly self determined and unfettered.

  58. Marty, Bravo!
    What you said here very much needs to be said to Scientologists, especially. Unfortunately, I think that it is also likely that many Scientologists will misunderstand and A=A on what you are saying. Let me just say that I have been a Scientologist for many years and that I have always recognized and validated the wins that people have had from “witnessing”, observing, confronting, facing up to things, or whatever name one gives for it using other practices.
    Also, I’ve had a good number of wins, myself, personally as a result of looking at the universe from the perspective of other practices. Wins, improvement, and enhancement of any kind really are not just OK, but WONDERFUL EVENTS.

    So I want to remind all Scientologists that a win is a win. …and remember that to not validate or acknowledge a win of any kind is to invalidate it. And doing that is a violation of the Auditor’s Code. In addition, acknowledging wins of this kind is also part of the Tech itself. In the drug rundowns there are procedures where the auditor acknowledges (and if necessary even rehabilitates) any wins a person may have had while taking DRUGS, for goodness sake! I believe you will find that there are also provisions for doing the same in various repair rundowns, including the Psych Repair Rundown, the EST Repair Rundown and others. There is no conflict here. But there is a conflict when denying or belittling the wins of other people. Don’t do it. It’s “out tech”. It is also small and mean.
    If a Scientologist has to brag about how great Scientology is compared to something else, in my opinion they are not applying it very well and need to start out by just being there, listening, understanding, and acknowledging.

  59. And by the way in answer to your question, “CAN I GET A WITNESS”?

    My reply is, “HALLELUJAH ! and AMEN !”

  60. Like!

  61. Frank “Sarge” Gerbode is a former Scientologist and former Palo Alto Mission holder whose “invention” is largely based on Hubbard’s Dianetics AFAIK.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  62. Paul Durand


    Hi Marty Thank you for this great post.

    For me, a person with a keen interest in, but no practice of Scientology, and 40 years of practicing meditation daily as taught to me by my teacher, and 4 years of psychoanalysis (20 years ago) this is a really interesting post to read and to comment on.

    I follow and understand your description of Scientology as “providing a construct through which an individual looks at his life in a honest fashion that which is viewed no longer has a hold on that person. And in that process, one’s experience moves from the subjective to the objective and the person has a greater choice of what to do, what to choose, pursue and what to react to.”

    Although I share with Scientology a dislike for the excesses of psychiatry, psychoanalysis produced for me results along the lines of what you describe in this sentence above. At 3 hours of analysis each week for 4 years, I must have spent 600 hours of “psychoanalytic auditing” –I hope that this terminology is not sacrilegious. The main benefits were that I was able to make peace with my parents and with the difficult childhood I had had, and that took a tremendous weight off my shoulders.

    I had always wanted to make peace with my childhood, but did not have the tools to do it—and the meditation which I was practicing did not help. Psychoanalysis provided the tool that worked perfectly for me at that time. I was lucky to find the right analyst. I must have interviewed a dozen before finding the right person. Someone I saw as honest, uncompromised, unbiased. And even with his help, the process got real challenging at times. Looking back, this was a real beneficial time. I came out of it more balanced, accepting and forgiving of my parents, with a deep feeling of reconciliation within myself. In this regards, I can relate to your quote: “Any auditing is better than no auditing.” For me, psychoanalysis was a very “secular” experience, which allowed me to resolve specific psychological blockages.

    My sense is that Scientology goes a lot further a lot more than psychoanalysis, but my assessment may be limited by my own experience/understanding of psychoanalysis, and by the limits that I set on what I wanted to get from it.

    Meditation opened the door to an entirely other realm. First, I have to preface by saying that different people mean entirely different things by the word “meditation”. When my mother talks about meditation she says: “ I need to meditate about this” which means “ I need to think, reflect”. A mental process.

    When I was looking for someone to show me how to meditate, I wanted to be shown how to have an inner “experience”. I was reading the experiences of the mystics, this is what I was attracted by that. I am from the hippie generation. I wanted to feel , experience something that would be independent from and free me from the constraints of the intellect, the mind, whatever you call it. I was looking for truth, I wanted to experience the ultimate.I wanted, in my lifetime, to have the finite and the infinite meet and I wanted to dissolve in that encounter. I was fascinated by divine exctasy, samadhi, all these things and was frustrated to read about what was experiences to be had, not just to be read about.

    I was looking for a mantra, a meditation, or whatever it would be called, that would help me have this experience. I knew it had to be some kind of practice. I also came to the conclusion that I would have to be shown to be, that I could not get it from books. But I had no idea where to find it.

    So I decided to travel the world to find someone who could show me. I traveled first all around Europe, then South America, lived for a while at the Yogananda ashram in Buenos Aires, but I did not find what I was looking for. Then I headed to India with the hope that I could find someone who could show me this thing. I went from ashram to ashram, looking determined to not come back to the West until I would have found the right person who could show me this. I was ready to die on the road if I did not find.

    I was fortunate enough, in December 72, to walk by the door of Prem Nagar ashram, along the Ganges, in the foothills of the Himalayas, and immediately knew that I had arrived to the place I had been looking for. It was the ashram of Prem Rawat, also known as Maharaji, and he was 15 years old at that time. His father and master had passed away and had passed the mantel to him and he was the one now imparting this “Knowledge” which I immediately recognized as the way to connect within that I had always looked for. He offered a key to the kingdom within, said he could open the door and I would be able to experience the True self within. I was shown this thing a day later, and to say that my life was transformed would be an understatement. A new sun rose in my life, a new life started. Nothing would ever be the same. Suddently everything made sense. I had been blind and now I could see.

    What he showed me was/is not a thought process, but a way to turn the senses within, to focus within, and to directly connect with life, the energy, the divine within, and find peace and fulfillment. An experience that starts rights where thoughts and words end.

    I did not understand fully at that time what I was getting into and how much would be required from me. I saw this as a new drug, as some kind of natural LSD substitute. I soon discovered that I had been given a boat to sail the ocean of life. And that there were seasons and weather along this journey…

    Since this journey started there have been a lot of ups, and there have been downs. What has remained constant is that the key that was handed to me one morning of 1972 is still as effective as it was that day. Every time I sit, close my eyes, and turn within I can experience a realm that cannot be described in words. When I am in that space, what Lao Tzu, Buddha and other say comes to life, makes.
    That, for me, is what “meditation” has brought me and keeps bringing me. It has brought an oasis into what used to be a desert within. Where there was conflict, it has brought a vast ocean of peace. I felt lost and now I feel found. I used to feel homeless, and I have found my eternal home within. Is it easy every day? No, and the reason is that I , like every human being, am forgetful. If I forget what is the most important, I default to believing into the illusion that surrounds me. I fall for one of the five temptations identified since time immemorial, by Buddhism, Hinduism and other paths: Ego, Greed , Anger, Lust and Attachment (in a broad sense, meaning always wanting what one does not have: “I wish, I wish…”). And then when Im tired of getting beaten up by these, I come back to seeking peace within…Its up to me for how long or how little these escapades from peace last and it is the journey of a lifetime to understand where one’s true home is.

    I have no idea of how different or similar the Scientology experience is from this. My sense is that its pretty deep, based on what I read. I see spiritual paths as different facets of one diamond. Some paths suit some better some people than others. I guess its all about what resonates best with you, what fulfills you best.

    Somewhere deep inside, are all looking for the same thing. Our thirst knows no labels. Call it peace, love, fulfillment, happiness. We are looking for eternal fulfillment. We want to be fulfilled and to never die. Call it Scientology, Buddhism, Taoism, what matters is that we all have a thirst within, and the thirst needs to be quenched while we are alive. And some people choose to heed its call more than others.

    There is a saying by my teacher, which I really like: “The heart will never be content with less than what it knows to be true”. May we all experience and be filled with what our heart knows to be true! And may we all help each other get there!.

    Love to all and thank you to you Marty for posting this.

  63. CD, interesting you should post about Gerbode and TIR just now. TIR and Gerbode are to my mind perfect examples of the ‘integrate’ with society that Marty posted about awhile back, as well as the ‘evolve’ step.

    One of the leading practitioners/trainers of TIR lives here in my town since the 1970s..

    She took that path in 1986, after a Sea Org “invasion” took her Scientology mission/franchise here away from her and declared her, in the early 1980s. She was at the time a Clear and OT III and a trained HSDC auditor. Her parents and sister were also Clears and above, as was Frank Gerbode a Clear and a trained auditor.

    She and many others knew of Frank long before he officially established. Metapsychology and then TIR.

    TIR is in fact is evolved from Dianetics and is accomplishing a successful integration of that tech into mainstream society as a validated therapeutic practice, which has taken many years to do. I have some quotes and links below on this.


    “Traumatic Incident Reduction (TIR) has undergone rigorous review during 2011 by SAMHSA’s National Registry
    of Evidence-Based Programs and Practices (NREPP). We expect this review of TIR to be completed shortly and
    included in the NREPP in early 2012.”

    SAMHSA – – Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration

    In Michigan:

    “This program is approved by the Michigan Social Work Continuing Education Collaborative for 26 hours
    Approval No. 121911-02”

  64. On last Sunday I had another failure to accomplish something. I got very mad (not this time on myself) on Scientology. All my efforts I put into getting my abilities up to a point I could use them in the real world for nothing. All those years spent and no stable gains. All that has been promised turned out to be not attainable. I had wins and I had increased ability. But not stable.
    You are right: looking at the failures makes one forget about the changes to the better I had.

  65. Marty, here’s an awesome Witness for ya! In this song Alanis is witnessing about what she witnessed as a result of meditation and what she got from it:

    THANK YOU lyrics

    How ’bout getting off of these antibiotics
    How ’bout stopping eating when I’m full up
    How ’bout them transparent dangling carrots
    How ’bout that ever elusive “could’ve…”

    Thank you India, thank you terror
    Thank you disillusionment
    Thank you frailty, thank you consequence
    Thank you, thank you, silence

    How ’bout me not blaming you for everything
    How ’bout me enjoying the moment for once
    How ’bout how good it feels to finally forgive you
    How ’bout grieving it all one at a time

    Thank you India, thank you terror
    Thank you disillusionment
    Thank you frailty, thank you consequence
    Thank you, thank you, silence

    The moment I let go of it
    Was the moment I got more than I could handle
    The moment I jumped off of it
    Was the moment I touched down

    How ’bout no longer being masochistic
    How ’bout remembering your divinity
    How ’bout unabashedly bawling your eyes out
    How ’bout not equating death with stopping

    Thank you India, thank you providence
    Thank you disillusionment
    Thank you nothingness, thank you clarity
    Thank you, thank you, silence

  66. Marildi, thanx for acking my ack 😛

    What’s with you and calling me Sypros over and over, Black PR? 😛

    What I have been trying to relay lately is that the COS is the COS, and those who apply the COS outisde the COS, are COS too, but outside the COS. I have experienced that myself, and if I was willing to exhibit my dirty laundry in detail, in public, I would be more specific. I may be more specific if I feel like it, later on.

    I haven’t attacked LRH, but SCN is not LRH. It is what he wrote as well as his altered texts as well as the groups composed of some 1000s of people. I read on Factnet that approximately 8 millions have passed through SCN. If so, what happened to them? What stat is that?

    SCN should be talked about as experienced, that’s how we communicate what is truth for us. If we only talk about what LRH wrote, we communicate his truth, which is not even present time truth. It was his truth some 50 years ago.

    On the subject matter of the OP, LRH warned about black spiritualities and mental practices during a time that he lead SCN. My opinion is he told them so, to keep them safe, not manipulated. But now that SCN at large in terms of numbers contains blackness too, I think he would say other things.

  67. Perhaps someday, someway, someone can safely address “Survivors guilt” as a method within the Scientology culture.

    You get in and understand the concept of “survival”. You get it that you are some road. Before you even “save” yourself you are told the lives of every man and woman and child depend on YOU. And “survivors guilt” becomes a button.

    It took me 40 years and on L12 to address “survivors guilt” as an issue.

    But I think it is a heavy button used.

    Robert Gordon lays his heart on the table. Thank you for caring about the person in front of you Robert. XXOO . We live by this mercy and die by it at the same time. Another GPM. I feel bad for my part in needing to be “saved”. I really pushed the envelope. Probably why I myself got overwhelmed with, “survivors guilt”. For whatever “saving” happened to me. Robert contributed to it. We get the idea we know so much and then make ourselves so NOT understandable to others as Scientologists we can throw them into an unattainable goal to understand us unless they “sign up”. You can see the frustration in this man’s face at not being able to understand our own wants and needs.

    Perhaps when he recorded this, he was in love with some Scientologist.

  68. Hear, hear.

  69. Roger from Switzerland Thought

    Had the same experiences. Was like a thought prison !

  70. You know, we set others up for unattainable goals to understand us when we distance ourselves with other rules and laws, goals and purposes, cultures, and speak in a different language.

  71. One can find gold by various methods. But it sure helps of you have a thorough grasp of geology and know how to use a metal detector.

    Similarly, one can accomplish wonderful things with a computer given the vast variety of application software. But when starting with one that has never been defragmented and is packed up with viruses, it’s a good idea to have some programming background and a full arsenal of system software, and to do the maintenance and optimizing protocols first.

    There is no one way to find gold or create brilliant work. But there are more efficient ways.

  72. Frank Gerbode:

    “Psychiatrist Frank Gerbode is an heir to the Alexander Baldwin sugar fortune. He left psychiatry for Scientology in the 1970s and for several years was the mission holder of the Palo Alto mission. He ran afoul of Church management in the early 1980s when the Church tried to reform his financial misdealings. In March 1984, Gerbode left the Church to join up with David Mayo. He set up a parallel operation he also called Advanced Ability Center in Palo Alto which, for tax purposes, he named the Church of the Universal Truth (“CUT”). Gerbode’s 1023 application, along with those of CNC and various Church applicants also went to Darling and Friedlander.”

  73. martyrathbun09

    Yo BP. It’s great to hear from you.

  74. one of those who see

    Absolutely love this song!!! The parts of Scientology I absolutely love are like this: “The moment I let go of it
    Was the moment I got more than I could handle
    The moment I jumped off of it
    Was the moment I touched down.”

  75. Yes, exactly 🙂 I found that I had assumed a spiritual point of view that wasn’t my original one, and as a consequence I got vulnerable to kinds of restimulation that I wasn’t before, because I didn’t perceive as myself. It isn’t that all was perfect before SCN, but it wasn’t as harsh –not even close.

  76. This one seems to fit everywhere –from the 2nd ACC.

    “I tell you the only unethical thing I have ever been able to discover is for an individual to deny himself. And if an individual thoroughly enough denies himself, believe me, he’s unethical because he’ll wind up by denying himself and everybody else and everything across the eight dynamics, pang! So that’s real unethical—also immoral.

    And you’ll find out the downgrade of everybody was when he denied his own strength, truth and power. And so you have to solve that. But it’s a solution that comes rather easily.”

    I also found out what denying self has to do with denying ‘everybody else’. Refferences can be found in the ‘route to INFINITY’ lectures about BEINGNESS, as well as in others of that era.

  77. From my experience both in Scientology and with Buddhism, I would say that they are to some degree complementary.

    In Scientology I have done the lower grades up to NED completion, and training up to level 4. I experienced improvements and cognitions.

    At some point I was stalled. I was requested to restart the bridge from the beginning and to redo all my courses GAT style from the scratch. I did not want a second pass and I blew.

    About the OT levels, I have read all the materials on the Internet, without feeling any restimulation and without being interested by running this stuff.

    So I feel that I have addressed with Scientology what I could of my case and that I cannot do more at the moment.

    With Buddhism I am discovering new important vital data about life and I address areas of my cases that were invisible in Scientology. That is a daily practice and I have daily cognitions.

    Thus I have the feeling that spiritual improvement involves possibly working with different schools, taking in each one the things that work.

  78. Spyros, you wrote: “SCN should be talked about as experienced, that’s how we communicate what is truth for us. If we only talk about what LRH wrote, we communicate his truth, which is not even present time truth. It was his truth some 50 years ago.”

    It’s totally fine to talk about what has been experienced, and I agree that it should be done. But you (and many others) come across as being convinced that “what LRH wrote” is not practiced at all in present time, and that isn’t the case. This is the problem I have with exclusively (or almost so) talking about Scientology in terms of the perversion of it that came about – as if that is all it ever was, or is, or will be. It acts like propaganda to repeat something so often that people come to believe it, even if that isn’t the actual intention of the repetition.

    With almost all words, the meaning evolves to where you have different definitions for the same word – sometimes they are even opposite in meaning. My point has been that the word “Scientology” shouldn’t be used as if the only meaning is the CoS version of it. On the other hand, it may be that at this point the word is too tarnished and a new word should be used by those practicing what LRH originally intended. Either that or there should be a more proportionate discussion that includes the Scientology that is still amazingly workable.

    Oh, and sorry for the misspelling on your name! Has it really been over and over that I’ve done it? I must be doing some kind of A=A with Cyprus (it’s all Greek to me :P). Either that or it’s because I have an MU on whether it’s pronounced Spi-ros (like spir-it) or Spy-ros (as in “spy”). Let me know so I have the correct image of you (kidding :D).

  79. My current witnessing practice…

    Yet meditation is still a once removed activity from simply actively living.

    Not being self, the noun, but selfing the verb. Being life, not just witnessing life. The attention stuck in life is that portion not living.


  80. Graduated, “He (Gerbode) ran afoul of Church management in the early 1980s when the Church tried to reform his financial misdealings.”

    In other words, he was likely one of the victims of the “mission massacre” and the Church management was trying to screw his mission out of a lot of the money it was taking in.

    What I find interesting about Gerbode is that he was apparently never persecuted the way Mayo and other ‘freezoners’ were for ‘squirreling’, ‘splintering’, etc.

    Was he even Declared?

    I suspect and speculate he was allowed to ‘get away with it’ because he was indeed the heir to a large fortune in a family that had a lot of clout – more than the LRH and CoS wanted to mess with. Possibly in fact he paid the CoS off? There was apparently a ‘live and let live’ policy on both sides, very unlike CoS vs.David Mayo.

    Marty, does your new book shed any light on this?

  81. Marty, I will be a witness to what you say. I use to meditate but the modern world kind of did not allow that. Can you recommend the best form of meditation to do, Zen perhaps? I want to achieve peace of mind and found that meditation helped accomplishing that. Do you have advice?

  82. Marty thev Dalai Lama is in aggreement with you.

    “Do yourself a favor. Try to consider that someone who has spent time in other similar practices has spent time witnessing just as you did in Scientology. See if that doesn’t open up an interesting world of increased affinity, reality and communication. Just as importantly, validate the time and effort you put in likewise. You might find you are in better shape than you have previously permitted yourself to believe.”

  83. Just knitting it into the sweater of history. Did you know Dutch psychiatrists rejected eugenics and built on on the teachings of Jacobus Schroeder van der Kolk while the US built on nazi views of psychiatry after world war 2. Cure homosexuality my ass, unfortunately Hubbard fell into that trap too like many of his peers at 1950.


  84. LOL, he did what hHubbard did before him, make it a church. Irony is Ironic

  85. Of course, look for yourself and report back what you expierienced for yourself.

  86. WTF at the end is says “Video done by Jack Hubbard” must be a common name in the states maybe.

  87. martyrathbun09

    Communication Training Routines 0-9. And/or, the book Self Analysis by L. Ron Hubbard.

  88. martyrathbun09

    He settled the Mayo litigation for the right to practice as he does. He had bankrolled Mayo’s litigation.

  89. Marty I throw this in for your better half. It was a better kept secret than the Atom Bomb back in the day

    “The Tuskegee Airmen
    First Group of African-American Fighter Pilots in WW2

    By Stephen Sherman, Feb. 2000. Updated June 29, 2011.”

  90. Tom Gallagher

    I’d like to dedicate this song to L. Ron Hubbard. Yes, there’s been good stuff and times, however there’s been a lot of pain.

  91. Thanks Marty for the info, and for having this blog and taking it in the directions it is going.

  92. I didn’t know anything of Dutch psychiatry, but I did know about the Eugenics in the US. The University of Michigan was one of the bases held by Nazi eugenics believers.

  93. “It is my view that any time devoted to honestly viewing the content of your mind, your experience, is progress in moving the external world back out of one’s head where it no longer drives you.”

    As an eclectic who has long since graduated from Scientology and moved on to various “other practices” I must say… well done. You’ve hit the nail right smack on the head.

  94. @iamvalkov: “In other words, he was likely one of the victims of the “mission massacre” and the Church management was trying to screw his mission out of a lot of the money it was taking in.”

    I read that passage the same way. I wonder what the scene would be like today had “Management” simply applied HCO PL Field Ethics and just let the Missions prosper or fold based upon their own merits and just ensured Orgs’ excellence in training Mission and Field Auditors and cleaning up or advancing their Pre-Clears. Oh well – woulda, shoulda, coulda. At least now we have an opportunity to re-engineer a workable system of associated terminals for that purpose.

  95. He was probably faced, at the time, with the same problem as LRH. How do you take a spiritual science (an oxymoron to the MEST-oriented Brain Boy Cult of those times) and keep it free of undue influence and regulation from outside know-bests under various Psychological Practices legislation whilst still integrated it into the then-established patterns of society? Being a 501c3-recognized religion was the only alternative safe-point for an applied spiritual science. Today, I can appreciate how “metapsychology” is a more acceptable positioning for documenting its therapeutic value. LRH said he would be disappointed if this technology did not leak into society. As you’ve demonstrated, he need not have worried.

  96. Well said!

  97. Paul Durand

    Brian writes: “Realizations are independent from the procedures used that bring them about. There are no ‘Scientology realizations of spirit’ and ‘meditation realizations of spirit’. There is just knowing.
    Direct perception is an innate soul ability that a technique can reveal when actualities are perceived, thus causing cognitions. The problem starts when procedures suggest what actualities are to be perceived.”

    Brian….This I brilliant…The perspective that you contribute helps transcend divisions, fragmentation among people.

    I like your focus on the realization itself –the quest for realization is what unites all people. Everybody wants a realization. That is what the conversation should be about: the destination, the thirst for betterment that we all share.

    Focusing on the “how”, by contrast, on how my path is different from yours, is what divides: one rapidly arrives at: “My path is better than yours..” and then “you should drop your path and join mine..”
    Why not look at the how with a bit more lightness, and more tolerance?

    Otherwise, before you know it, one is in the very same space where in the name of peace, people have waged war, for many centuries. It’s a distinctively sad characteristic of too many religions to have advocated war with the misguided expectation that the outcome would be peace. My view is that, like war, peace begins with me. The constitution of UNESCO says: “t Since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defences of peace must be constructed. Ignorance of each other’s ways and lives has been a common cause, throughout the history of mankind, of suspicion and mistrust between the peoples of the world through which their differences have all too often broken into war.”How true…

    Yonne Shick writes: “My door is now open again to any idea, any study, any technique or technology that will move me on up a little higher in my own awareness, my own compassion, my own effectiveness or my ability to relieve the suffer or increase the joy of others.” What an inspiring example of advocacy for peace.

  98. Hey Roger, in the east it is called Jnana Yoga. Jnana is Sanskrit and is the root of the word knowledge. It is pronounced Nyana.
    Googling Ramana Maharshi will take you to one of the best teachers in that method. Discirimination the tool, constant vigilance the practice.

    Who am I is the ultimate question for the Jnani (or knower). Neti Neti (not this not that) is the ultimate affirmation of consciousness not being anything but Itself. Not a physical, astral(theta) or causal body. Nor is It any circumstance. It is Self Existent and the Cause of all things. Ever free and full of bliss.

    Through the rigors of constant vigilance, the Jnani seeks to tear asunder the false identification of soul with matter. I am not a man, I am not my assumed identities. I am only Eternal Being floating in the sea of change. Riding the crest wave of constant change but not being identified with it. Needing no external cosmos to support Conscious Existence.

    Realization of Oneness with all: God

    Which brings me to a concept that Ron misunderstood and consequently laid down the inevitability of passing on that misundertanding.

    It is a misunderstanding that took me years to clear up. It kept me in judgement of other practices and their teachers. It is the concept of Oneness.

    Ron was not just opposed to the idea, he booby trapped it by causing it to be indentified with OT level implants. Thus booby trapping the concept of God.

    Not being totally free himself, Ron passed on some ideas that are in confidential writings on the OT levels that give credibility to Buddha and himself( and implied that he was both). I believe it was an open letter to those on the OT levels.

    The word Oness in that writing is associated only with an implant that is causing entrapment and misery.

    It is the reason you won’t find much appreciation for other teachers with Ex Scientologists because they talk about God and oneness.

    Karma, reincarnation, seeing inner light, the astral and causal universes, God, oneness, near death experiences, evolution and many more basic spiritual concepts that are all held in agreement by masters of the spirit, have been redifined by Ron to fit into the “I know and they are all restimulated by R6, incident one and two” scenario.

    Many methods and practices have been booby trapped by his misunderstanding or shall I say lack thereof.

    There are many methods and procedures. Not all of them deal with the intellect only as Scientology does.

    In the east there is a commonly accepted idea: the downfall of Jnana yoga is egotistical arrogance. And the downfall of Bhakti Yoga (the path of heart or shradda(devotion) is fanaticism.

    I have found for myself the integral path of balance to be best. When someone tells you “they love God” that is the path of the heart. When someone tells you “they know God” they are on the path of knowledge.

    The Master Teachers all say that the final attainment proclaims love and knowledge to be one. Both lead to The Truth.

  99. Thanks for posting this video iamvalkov. Really enjoyed it!

  100. stop defending hubbard!!!!

  101. And here I thought for a moment that we were all going to break into a chorus of Kumbaya.

  102. Thank you for that Paul.

    It is interesting to read such an account of a personal journey. I also very much enjoy reading about your personal experiences of “enlightenment”. I usually find something within these revelations that broadens my own experience.

    You have said that you did not know how similar or different experiences from Scientology were from your own experiences.

    As you are likely aware, each person experiences their reality from their own viewpoints, so my experiences may or may not reflect any kind of a “norm”. Also I have found that what triggers various enlightenments, varies from person to person, likely based upon the awarenesses that they have accumulated at any given point.

    I am finding it difficult to isolate one particular experience that in any way really communicates the breadth of my experiences or realizations. They range from very light to deeply profound, and consciousness altering.

    But to perhaps give you just one real example, from my own experience, I offer this:

    In one particular “session” (the time spent with an “auditor” doing a Scientology “process” or procedure), the particular process that I was doing at the time basically consisted of the “auditor” (the one asking the questions) asking only two questions in rotation. One was “Say ‘I like_____’ ” (the blank was filled with some common item like “bananas” or “peaches” or various other things.) followed by, “Say “I don’t like______’ “.(same item) This was repeated with the same item until the auditor determined it was time to move to a new item.

    Pretty simple yes?

    Well, I did it for a while, and it was fun, but I wasn’t experiencing any change, so I decided that I was going to go a little deeper and not just say it, but also assume the viewpoint that I really considered it to be true. I decided to really MEAN it….

    Well, that was a life changer…..

    I ended up in a “place” (consciousness) where it became totally insignificant which I chose to consider true. I had become willing to experience either, or neither.

    From there it became totally experiential for me that all of the decisions that I had made as to what was “true for me”, (my own postulates) were arbitrary. It extended even to what I was willing to be or not be, do or not do, have or not have.

    It was incredibly liberating, right up to the point where I suddenly looked at what the effects of me operating from that level could have on others. I realized that in order for me to responsibly “play at that level” the “others” experiencing that “play” would have to have achieved similar enlightenments themselves. I had moved beyond my own self-determined responsibility to a broader pan-determined responsibility.


    So there you go. I do not know how many lifetimes it may have taken for me to have that experience without the aid of that particular “process” at that particular time. This is just one of hundreds of processes that are part of Scientology Technology. So I would definitely say that Scientology (applied correctly)is capable of “opening a few doors.”


  103. It is a helluvalot easier to beat up on someone who is not defended, eh?

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  104. Good points, Theo.

    Indeed, there are many other great teachings, many wise sayings out there.

    But where are their assists?

    Where are their processes?

    Where are their levels?

    Where are the specific tools to apply their wisdom to the individual, in other than an intellectual, theoretical, or evaluative sense?

    I realize of course that there are, indeed, various other techniques extant such as meditation. But none that I know of are as specific and plentiful as those developed by LRH.

    The touch assist all by itself is a miracle-working tool, if done right. I have seen and experienced highly intense pain reduced to NOTHING by a properly done touch assist.

    There is an assist pack that is at least an inch thick. Full of dozens if not hundreds of techniques to help people in various states of distress.

    I doubt there is one LRH idea or theory that was not accompanied by one or more tools by which an individual could be helped by said idea or theory.

    You don’t have to make other people, other ideas, other teachers, even other practices wrong, in order to appreciate the uniqueness of Scientology. You can appreciate it in the quietness of your own home, your own mind, never even letting on what a great gift you had the good fortune to stumble across.

  105. You wrote a very interesting article and the title is perfect. I meditate, thus I can relate to what you are saying. Meditation helps me focus in life. I am not a Scientologist but I do respect all faiths. Personally, I found too much agitation in some of the writings I have read in your blog. I experience hate, anger, inhumanity while I served in Vietnam. Thus, I no longer follow anyone’s warpath or any nation’s drum beating. Out of curiosity what form of meditation do you practice?

  106. You’re welcome. To me it really goes with Marty’s OP. It is her personal testimony of the things meditation liberated her from, and the positive gain she got from it. Witness with a capital W.

    And of course there is her incredible voice and the way she sings it! Like from another dimension. What a set of pipes she’s got!

    When I heard it, I thought “That is 100% Tone 40 Acknowledgement!”

  107. Auditing has given me the most direct witnessing experience of a certain kind – the kind where I am amazed, surprised and thrilled at what I discover. That instantaneous as-ising that gets you hooked and wanting more. Learning and experiencing other witnessing practices such as meditation and various studies has given me something else. I have gained a greatly increased ability to inspect myself and awareness of what I am doing to create any negativities. I also have gained humbleness and compassion, and have lost much ego. It has only enhanced the gains I acheieved from Scientology and helped me to understand it better.

  108. Graduated!!! I have missed your irreverence. You help me embrace my inner Theedy Weedy;-) Thank you for your support.

    If you would indulge me I have a question for you:

    What are the thoughts behind your post to me?

    I Would love to know them. If you choose.

  109. Aquamarine

    Gayle, you said: “If Scientology isn’t being given and received as the gift and opportunity or invitation to look and see for yourself then its not being applied correctly”.

    I have experienced this as completely true, Because Scientology was presented to me in just this way, because I was allowed to be trained and audited within this very precise concept of application, it worked very well for me. Scientology would never have worked otherwise – not on me. For me, Scientology the subject and this concept are one and the same. In my view, Scientology used without this concept of correct application is simply not Scientology. .

  110. Aquamarine

    Yes, that’s beautiful, Espiritu.

  111. Glad to oblige, Brian. Reading through the comments of this thread, it was nice to see how everyone seemed to be getting along in the spirit of the OP. It seems were were all finding a common point of agreement and harmony without the need to bash the other guy’s path to witnessing. But then I read your comments again bashing Hubbard and realized we weren’t “all going to break into a chorus of Kumbaya”. Perhaps my humor was too subtle. I’m happy you found what works for you, though.


  112. Paul Durand

    Spyros writes: “There should be 1000s of different ways to get rid of lies. To say that I can, and others can’t……is gross suppression, in my opinion. And my bet is that the person who says that, can’t. A liability of considering that just a single philosophy/religion/science can, is that we shut doors to possibilities.”
    Well said, Spyros. I keep being surprised that, after thousands of years, and innumerable conflicts over religion, it appears that the majority of people believe that their religion is better than others’

    A Religion is basically like looking out your window and describing Divinity as you see it. It is impossible to describe it in its entirety. As a result each religion is expressing the portion of Divinity that the people who created it could see or at least were able to express. Just because you see one thing doesn’t mean that somebody else can’t see a different aspect of Divinity and be just as correct as you are. Just like I see a flower outside my window and you see a whole tree full of flowers out of your window. We’re both right. It’s just that we’re looking at something so big that we each see a different part of it. Just because you don’t see the same thing I do doesn’t mean that I’m wrong. We can both be right if we’re seeing different things.

    The criteria for making one’s religion superior abound: “Science agrees with me, so it must be right..”, It feels true to me, so it must be right”, “Mine is more ancient, therefore it is more right”, “Gold told me it was true, therefore it is right”, “Hardly anybody knows about it, therefore it must be right”, “it is the most popular, therefore it must be right “I do not understand the other religions, therefore mine must be right”,……… and the most challenging: ”, “I have a convincing personal experience, therefore it must be right..”

    There are a few problems with this reasoning. The first problem with it is that many OTHER people around the world have also had similar experiences, but come
    to DIFFERENT conclusions. It is rather unconvincing that there is a single “right path” if people all over the world have similar experiences but come to different conclusions. Another problem is that people have spontaneously experienced profound senses of presence, beauty and awe without exposure to a specific established religion.

    Windhorse writes: “ What we want, I believe, is to discover our buddha mind or buddha nature, which is genuine OTness – compassionate and aware.”

    Windhorse, I can relate to this.. thank you for saying this. I imagine a world where people focus on what they have in common, on what unites them, on the love, beauty, peace that they all seek. How wonderful this would be. It’s up to each of us…

  113. For me, Practices such as NLP and Landmark gave me what I was searching for in Scientology

  114. Thanks for saying that, Michael.

  115. Truth is truth, from wherever it came.
    I am surrounded by people who’ve gained truth from witnessing in ways that differ from mine. I have so much more affinity for them. But I first had to completely be rid of my holier than thou computation. I had to place myself realistically in their space and asses myself without prejudice. In doing that, I gained much beingness and affinity for what I truly have and for what they truly have.
    We’re very much the same.

  116. Wow. Thank you for that, Paul.

  117. Fantastic, Surprise! Thank you for sharing your experience.

  118. “If Scientology isn’t being given and received as the gift and opportunity or invitation to look and see what’s true for yourself then it’s not being applied correctly.”
    I can totally relate. Great comment.

  119. I recently asked myself the question: “Why am I following Marty’s blog, why am I taking the time to read hundreds…no, thousands…of comments?”

    I did not have to wait long for the answer. It was almost immediate. And it came with an abundance of verbosity, myriad images and a plethora of artfully crafted analogies, metaphors and allegories. The answer to my question, for several days, dominated my ritual of morning contemplation. It was a process. In the end there was one word that encapsulated the entire answer that took days to parade through. The word is: profundity. I am here for the profound and Marty’s blog (of course, this includes all who comment on the blog) abounds in the profound. For me, anything that incites recognition is profound.

    When I was twenty years of age I read Carlos Castaneda’s book, The Teaching of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge. It was an interesting and entertaining read but there was only one paragraph in the entire book that was profound for me. It was a paragraph that talked about each person having their own path and how important it was that they find (recognize) their path and follow it.

    In a world full of noise how does one find the signal that is their own path?

    Many years later I had a serendipitous encounter with a person wherein we had a very brief “out of the blue” conversation about the so called “rat race.”
    This person made an incredibly profound statement. He said, “It is possible that a person can win the rat race but still remain a rat.”

    We have freedom of choice. In every single moment we can choose for life to be a classroom or something else. I believe that whenever we choose ‘something else’ we are increasing the probabilities that, at the end of the rat race, we will still be a rat.

    I am enormously grateful to you all for both your generosity and your profundity. You are all an immense help in me recognizing my path (my tailor made curriculum).

    Now, here is a excerpt from A Course in Miracles, which I have been exploring followed by a video regarding what is water (it’s not really about water, it’s about recognition).

    Excerpts from ACIM: “Perception is consistent. What you see reflects your thinking. And your thinking but reflects your choice of what you want to see. Your values are determiners of this, for what you value you must want to see, believing what you see is really there. No one can see a world his mind has not accorded value. And no one can fail to look upon what he believes he wants.

    “You cannot stop with the idea the world is worthless, for unless you see that there is something else to hope for, you will only be depressed. Our emphasis is not on giving up the world, but on exchanging it for what is far more satisfying, filled with joy, and capable of offering you peace. Think you this world can offer that to you?

    “It might be worth a little time to think once more about the value of this world. Perhaps you will concede there is no loss in letting go all thought of value here. The world you see is merciless indeed, unstable, cruel, unconcerned with you, quick to avenge and pitiless with hate. It gives but to rescind, and takes away all things that you have cherished for a while. No lasting love is found, for none is here. This is the world of time, where all things end.

    “Is it a loss to find a world instead where losing is impossible; where love endures forever, hate cannot exist and vengeance has no meaning? Is it loss to find all things you really want, and know they have no ending and they will remain exactly as you want them throughout time? Yet even they will be exchanged at last for what we cannot speak of, for you go from there to where words fail entirely, into a silence where the language is unspoken and yet surely understood.”

    Video: This is Water

  120. Thank you Graduated for reply. I understand how you can feel that way. I try to be measured and thoughtful in my criticisms. Actually my criticisms help me to relook at realities that I once assumed to be true that don’t serve me anymore. They are not just ranting emotions or bashing, but observations about proceedures.

    I am helping myself by uncovering basic building blocks in mindsets I assumed when I was a very young man forming world views.

    My other intention is to speak up for other paths and bring them into a respectable light as they were bashed by Ron, and want people to know that there are other ways to look at things.

    And I thank Marty for the toleration. And others for respectful dialog and not hate and attacks.

    Warm Regards,

  121. Very nice posting

  122. I especially like the dali lama Ytube clip and his views and thats basic understanding and without that its a lost throughout.

  123. Look, maybe you’ll like this one too:


  124. Margot Diaz Learned

    Well said!

  125. Pingback: Self-transcendence | Moving On Up a Little Higher

  126. Continuate cos, bravi!

  127. Hey M, you’ve only misspelled my name twice, but it wouldn’t that funny to say that you just did twice, you know 😛

    you said:But you (and many others) come across as being convinced that “what LRH wrote” is not practiced at all in present time, and that isn’t the case.

    No, I didn’t mean that. My view is my view, yours is yours other’s is other’s etc I was thinking in terms of greatest good, number-wise. What I have been perceiving through others most of the time is not nice. My past implants were not nice either. They were very life changing alright –but downwards. And recently I decided it is better for most, to leave it alone. It’s like there’s a delicious cake, with poison poured all over it. The poison is as destructive as the cake is delicious. Can one find all the poison? Numbers tends towards ‘no’ from my view. Does it matter if it is COS or not, in this case? It only matters if someone is willing and able to take all the poison out.

    If you find my actual name, you got a cookie 😛

  128. Dalai Lama

    His beard is non-existend.

    his words are wise nevertheless

  129. Meditate and tell people you want this time for yourself, be an hard ass and you will end up a softie for being clear with people about your own needs.

  130. Your observation is spot on dear Watson. My aim is to spread it further. I do not play with MEST and stuff and orriented and brainboy, because I am a MEST-oriented Brain Boy Cult of thise time just to spite you.

    I am a Commi lol, no rather a social democrat from Holland, Knowledge is free (Anonymous), I do Yogha and fucking mindfullness as a therapy go figur.

    I still think Hubbard was full of it but he deserves his place in history. at least he kicked J Edgar Hoovers ass

  131. Yes that I did not understand Scientologists rejection of Psychiatry at first because I came from another background and a country like Danmark, Sweden or Norway were we have Social Psychiatry

    Did you know that dutch doctors refused to sign some nazi shit and the nazi’s let it go out of fear for epidemics in wartime ?

  132. OMG, Spyros actually means “spirit”! Like! I googled it and now I know how to pronounce it. 🙂

    But I don’t think your analogy about the cake with poison all over it is right. I think it is more like there are some bad bits or even chunks but you can still scoop out the delicious part.

    And I guess you owe me a cookie. Or maybe some baklava if I even get to Greece. OR – we can share some delicious cake one day. 😉

  133. My name means spirit?? LOL I didn’t even know that myself.

    Well, me, you, others, each one of us have our own viewpoint/experiences. Fortunately, or else we would be banks with bodies, or way up high. If it’s like that for you, so it is. I was referring to an estimated average or majority.

    Fine, you found that my name is spirit, that’s pretty close, so you get your cookie 😛 Baklava has turkish roots I think –at least the word is turkish. My favorites are pasteries –preferably with chocolate 😉 😉

  134. LOL, you didn’t know that about your name? Here’s the reference:

    “as a boy’s name is a variant of Spiridon (Greek, Latin), and the meaning of Spyros is “basket; spirit”.

    So then what were you alluding to about your “actual name”?

    Btw, all the Americans I’ve ever known think baklava is a greek pastry. Another link for you: 😉 😉

  135. Well there’s some argument between some Greeks and Turkish about baklava. I’ve no idea who made it (both make it now), but I can tell by the word’s accent that it’s (the word) definitely turkish.

    Yes, Spyros is short for Spyridon. But nobody here calls himself Spyridon. I don’t know why. Good to know that it means spirit. By ‘actual name’ I meant the name of the actual me, not my pet’s name 😛

  136. Spyros, you lost me. I’m not sure of you are serious and mean that Spyros is literally your pet’s name and you are using it as an aka – or you are being your usual esoteric self. 😛 😉

  137. Yes, it’s my human’s (pet’s) name 😛

  138. I see. Do YOU have a name?

  139. Hehehe witty Marildi 😉

  140. 🙂

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