Now for one reason you might want to read Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior. Tony Ortega hates the book, characterizing it as a love letter to the cult: Ortega’s take.
Rattling both ends of the extreme is an indicia of hitting the sweet spot. Reference: The Great Middle Path Revisited.
Moving On Up a Little Higher 
Perfect! 🙂
Marty I don’t know how many book reviews you read but that’s far from a “hateful” review.
If Ortega hates it, I will love it. Mine’s already ordered and I’m looking forward to reading it asap.
The man who calls “Training Routine 1” an “hours-long staring contest” says that Marty didn’t get it right.
Details matter.
Great job, Marty. If Ortega liked it, I would have been concerned. He will only be satisfied when you and I and every other Scientologist finally realizes that Ron was a fraud, Scientology is a fraud, everything we have done is evil, and we should all just admit it.
Marty, I have to agree with Unity: I would call this review something more like “disappointing” though perhaps not unexpected, given where you guys stand in the overall scheme of things. I think Tony was hoping for something much different than the book you actually wrote.
Marty, in 10 or 20 years, I hope you can divest yourself of all of it. But its a process and your making progress on all dynamics. Well done. Wish you had priced it at 25 dollars instead of 23 so it qualified for free shipping.
I did not get hate from Tony’s review Marty. Actually I think he is really enjoying the gradual unfoldment in your writings. You have a lot to offer Marty.
Tony, not being familiar with metaphysical realities equates Hubbard craziness with prenatal memories. So he cannot differentiate between them.
It seems your inner unfoldment is a media event. I support you on your journey, with its future unfoldments.
Tony is preaching to his own choir, and for many in that group Hubbard never had a single decent impulse or spark of original insight. And Marty, just by your effectiveness as a ‘Scientology Warrior’ you are more than guilty by association. You couldn’t possibly dish enough dirt to be acceptable in the eyes of most of Tony’s commenters, and he knows it.
However, if I hadn’t already ordered your book, Tony’s review would have prompted me to do so, and I saw at least one skeptic over there who had a similar reaction.
Stand up for something…or fall for everything…and be good for nothing.
Super pumped up to read what you stand for.
Sweet! My copy is on its way. Can’t wait!
As much as I enjoy Tony Ortega’s work, he still doesn’t really get it or understand what’s important and what’s not.
Thanks for the new book Marty.
Is your book available for iPad?
Reblogged this on 31 Factors.
Good news for the new book.
I wouldnt go overboard on Tony Ortega.
Im getting my copy and reading it.
Can I order it through you and get a signed copy?
Solution: Buy 2 Scientology Warriors …..or add the book by Ron T. Miscavige for $7.99 which was reviewed by Dan Koon. That’s what I did. It doesn’t look like it is about the Scientology, but I found it interesting that it was offered on the same Amazon page. 🙂
I did not see the review on Tonys blog. I go to Tonys blog occasionally to read tne news, but the editorial content is pretty sick.Those people need to ” get a life” There is no movin on up alittle higher for them. They are stuck in complain mode and cant escape. A positive attitude, they will never have.
My copy will arrive tomorrow. Tony Ortega’s review shows that the book doesn’t serve his purpose .
I am pretty riveted to this book. After living through all the lies us little low-life veteran staff members were told constantly (and thinking they were the truth), and after escaping finding out that there *were* lies and hearing bits and pieces of the horrific truths, and after seeing the suck-up mentality of the staff to their seniors and learning it and doing it myself for my own personal “survival,” I am seeing how it all came to be that way.
I’m only on page 80. But since this conversation has already been started, I wanted to say one thing that’s made its way to the surface for me so far. (There are many things actually but this one really went Duuuuuuhhhh.) In some instances LRH sure did not use his own tone scale data to decide who was going to be close to him and who was going to be some of his most trusted people. Looks like he himself completely opened the door to some pretty insincere, manipulative people grabbing a hold of positions of power.
But, so far, there has been nothing that has swayed me from the workability and results of the procedures I’ve experienced myself and also delivered to others. Administration, personnel, work ethic….are an entirely different subject matter from the technology itself.
Good observation. Tony Ortega has a good nose for bullshit. The problem is that he has no capability of observing Scientology for himself to find out what it bullshit and what is not. Maybe someday he will try doing some “TR1” (TR0) and find out that practicing the art being there comfortably in the presence of another person is not really a “staring contest”. But he probably won’t. He doesn’t seem to be the kind of person who would be interested in looking into “spiritual stuff” with an open mind. For instance, I could be wrong, but I doubt that he has ever seriously tried any meditation practices of any kind. But that’s OK. Everyone is a unique individual and he is a pretty damn good muckraker. He’s not perfect, but who is? And the world really needs muckrakers these days.
I meant to say that CoS is a perfect example of how The end does not justify the means
Early this morning I went on amazon to check the book out. Ihad tons of things to do but spent an hour reading the first several chapters. I loved the writing style and could not tear myself away from the book. I really, really liked it.
Tony O has since edited his article with the correct TR.
He must be reading this one….
I will order the book today. I am hoping for time, place, form and event – the only thing that will as-is the mess that Scn has become. Opinions, spin, etc just delay the eventual resolution.
Not only just admit it, but ‘fess up the salacious titillating details of it all in true tasteless National Enquirer journalistic style.
I don’t think it’s a matter of “dishing enough dirt.” What Tony and others hope for is a frank look at the truly harmful actions taken against critics of the organization. I may be wrong, but I think Marty would probably appreciate having a blow-by-blow detail of the operations that have been used against him since the beginning of Scientology’s attacks. Wouldn’t he like to know all the behind the scenes maneuvering that went into the Squirrel Busters? Who did what and when? How was the operation funded? I’m sure there’s plenty of information that he be interested in. I know I would be. Well, plenty of people have been harmed by actions taken while Mike and Marty were in a position of power. They may still believe that those people were deserving of that harsh treatment but there are plenty people on the outside who don’t see it that way. I’m sure John Allender and everybody who’s involved with the attacks on Marty and Mike think of themselves as spiritual warriors and they’re doing the exact right thing to protect the creation that L. Ron Hubbard gave the world. They are wrong. They are doing nasty, destructive things and we would all be happy when they tell the truth about what has been done. A lot of people believe Marty should do the same. I think it’s a fairly simple matter. Marty might feel that the harsh criticism on the net is something like a gangbang sec check but it isn’t. We’re not asking him what are his crimes? We’re asking him to actually put himself in the shoes of people like Gerry Armstrong or Michael Flynn. He still is upset by their actions. But we see that Marty actually is in their shoes and we can’t understand why that doesn’t register more? Bert Leahy came forward and gave Marty information that he deserved to know. Gerry and others would appreciate the same kindness.
Actually, Aeolus was pretty close to the mark, and you Mark are shooting a bit wide. Step back for a moment. Carefully read Tony’s last 20 or so posts and the comments. Do the same for my blog. Then tell me, quite honestly, whose forum more resembles a cult? Tony has lost any semblance of objectivity. That you make such an evaluation without reading the book yourself is disappointing – but indicative of the proclivity of the ‘critics’ clique to blindly accept representations of its opinion leaders.
Marty, I think the disappointing part is that we know you have been involved in some pretty heinous acts in the name of Scientology. Yet you still continue to use the “correctness” of Scientology and the deified image of Hubbard to shield those acts in a bubble of justification.
Scientology was built as a way to control people and their money. It was not intended as a form of therapy.
All former Scientologists are welcome to delude themselves into believing that they have experienced good things from Scientology, but the number of evil things and lives ruined in the name of “therapy” is not justified by that good by any stretch of the imagination.
Get a life!? “Complain mode”? Whatever happened to Understanding? Or Responsibility? These people, these attitudes, are the result of a criminal church with a long history of abuse. Many are victims of its abuse. What do you expect? Maybe when this church stops defrauding people, abusing people (including children) and tearing families apart, some might feel a little more “positive”. Maybe when things are better known, when a few more questions can be answered, some will finally be able to “move on up”. Until then, why not give them a break?
You sound like a card-carrying Scn church member, speaking of something you have not read with a great deal of authority. But your leader didn’t like it, so neither do you.
He doesnt realize that just might “as-is” his gig. It’s better for Tony’s bank account if the juicy details are meted out over years. I wonder what some of these critics who have been against Scientology for 20-30 years some of them, what they would do if it were gone? Would they rejoice or feel empty?
Ortega: “But after getting through this book’s 326 pages, it’s even clearer to us that Marty Rathbun hasn’t even begun to understand himself or what he did in the name of Scientology.
I think Ortega is the one that hasn’t even begun to understand himself or what he did in the name of Scientology.
Marty worked there, audited, received auditing, lived in every division of the Org Board, and immersed himself for over two decades in the Scientology theater and viewed it from every angle.
Tony has been analyzing gossip about it for years from what he views as an “underground bunker” and he is more obsessed with Scientology than I ever was. He has been swallowed up by Scientology and floating in it’s digestive track for years. He has sacrificed his job, his profession, and God knows what else and he hasn’t even done a service as far as I know.
He might as well be an I.A.S. victim.
What a relief! I now do have a good reason to read it. Thanks.
And BTW, I think Tony O’s review will get many to read the book.
He sounds to me like a card carrying witch hunter. Inspector Javert straight out of Victor Hugo’s Les Miserables.
Javert: I should have known. The scoundrel joins up with the fools.
Javert: There is no God. There is only the law. Good and evil do not exist outside the law.
Javert: Reform is a discarded fantasy.
Javert: What did you say? Speak up, people don’t mumble when they speak to me.
Javert: It’s a pity the law doesn’t allow me to be merciful.
Javert: I’ve tried to live my life without breaking a single rule.
Javert: Monsieur, a serious… a grave violation of the public trust has been committed. An inferior has shown a complete lack of respect for the law. He must be exposed and punished.
Javert: Reform is a discredited fantasy. Modern science tells us that people are by nature, law breakers or law abiders. A wolf could wear sheep’s clothing but he’s still a wolf.
Javert: Follow to the letter your itinerary, this badge of shame you wear until you die. It warns that you’re a dangerous man.
Javert: One day more ’til revolution, we will nip it in the bud. We’ll be ready for these school boys, they will wet themselves with blood!
Javert: Listen, my friends, I have done as I said. I have been to their lines, I have counted each man. I will tell what I can. Better beware, they have armies to spare. And our danger is real, we will need all our cunning to bring them to heel.
Javert: You must think me mad! I’ve hunted you across the years. Men like you can never change, a man such as you…
Marty, no Tonys will ever understand what’s even like to be next to Miscavige under the belief one is operating to protect and promote Scientology. I still see the title fit and looking forward to reading the book.
And one other thing. I wouldn’t waste ONE warrior no matter what the past was. We do know how valuable we all are. Even in this mess now, I get peace of mind just talking to you with so many experiences and all the things that you got to know. Just see who are your real friends here. I think you already have enough opposing forces… let’s focus on those friends!
I have been posting on Tony’s blog today, a lot. About the subject of Scientology. It looks like those kids over there indulge in hearing about Ron Hubbard and how vicious he was and other such things but have not the slightest interest to find out about the subject. Some maybe were involved, got what they got out of it and now want to just sit back and enjoy the movie…. spectators! Oh some can exteriorise and this is good. However they have no clue as to who has perceptions when exterior. Too bad!
I think they “tried to get a life” when they committed to their first service in the Church. They are products of the Church. Unhappy customers. The result of their “Scientology experience”. They are out here communicating because nobody in the Church cared enough about them to listen to them and understand them. Unhappy customers are created. These are also the products of Scientology. Their case was opened up but never addressed and handled. If you are going to throw someone off a cliff into the water to teach them how to swim, you really should be willing to dive in after them to help them out if they start to sink. The culture around Scientology is very much a sink or swim culture. The “help” button that gets pushed when a person first comes in, as in, “We can help”, is a lie. These days. What they really means is “We need your help”. Miscavige has placed all burden of Scientology upon the public. Right up to “Buy us the buildings we need to deliver”. “I am running a can’t have on the tech until you ________”.
There are many of us because of when and where we got in, fell into favorable conditions and were rewarded for our curiosity.
There are others that were punished.
Imagine being in a family, your parents treat you well, but abuse your brother or sister. There are people that float along and have excuses for the unhappy siblings and what is wrong with them. Never wanting to confront that the parents are very fucked up. That is the closest analogy I can give to this very sick dynamic that floats through Scientology.
Yes, it did take away from my own pleasure when I began to find out there was an arena of people who were set up for losses. But my ARC for the world have tumbled even lower if I just wrote them off as people that “did not matter”.
You know, when I first got involved with Scientology, the prevailing spirit in the group was “everyone matters”. If someone was upset about something it was a very big deal and great care was taken to fix it. This is the spirit that bought people in the front door. I only got through H.Q.S. because other people thought I mattered. I didn’t think I mattered at all.
I’ve been a few times on Ortega’s blog and I see a big difference with Marty’s blog (and even with Mike Rinder’s blog). Ortega never dedicated a second in his life to a higher calling, he appears to not have a single spiritual fiber in his body. His interest appears to be just in succeeding as an investigative journalist, and Scientology appears to be just the right topic at the right time, just a niche to differentiate himself, in times when it’s hard to make a buck as a journalist.
And of course, to succeed in this capacity, he befriends ex-Scientologists, as they are a source of contacts and information to him. And my sense is that many gullible Scientologists do not realize that Ortega is interested in the least in helping them, but only in helping himself, and that they are just a means to his end.
I have a high respect for you all here on this blog, because you had and still have a spiritual calling and a longing to better life on this planet. You know first hand what the word “dedication” means because you have dedicated something, sometimes a lot, in your life, to a higher calling.
My sense is that for many of you, your vision is that one day the good in Scientology will prevail and that many more people on this planet will see their lives improved, elevated, as a consequence of that. This appears to be your aspiration and in that, it is a noble one.
My sense is that Ortega’s aspiration is just that, in part because of his efforts, Scientology gets shut down, regardless of the good and the bad, that L Ron Hubbard gets labeled as scum, and that the contacts he has made blogging about Scientology over the last 10 years get him a front row seat as this undoing happens, and that he makes some money out of it, maybe by selling a movie script to some Hollywood producer about the whole thing. End of the story. A rather pedestrian and self-centered motivation. I may be off, but that’s the impression I get.
That is why I hang out with you guys and not there…I have dedicated nearly 40 years of my life to a higher cause, and appreciate the company of those, regardless of path and beliefs, who have done so also. There is something sacred and immensely respectable, in what compels a human being to selflessly dedicate, and I know for me, these people are my brothers and sisters on this planet.
Love to you all.
I don’t think you know what a cult is. That’s not very surprising, most former members think their group is unique. It’s fun to watch former members have a revelation at a cult conference when they realize that there are more similarities in these groups than differences. I don’t know how John Carmichael, Sue Taylor, etc. go to these events and not see the patterns of abusive groups.
I know you read a lot, just try a book from former members of another group. Something like Captive Hearts, Captive Minds, which has no Scientology in it at all. I think you’ll be surprised.
I think Tony has a lot to learn about cults, but he’s certainly talking to all the right people. He’ll get there, he’s a reporter treating this like a crime or political scandal story. It’s more complicated than that.
By the way, that photo he chose to position you, in a Sea Org uniform is ancient. I couldn’t even relate to the photo. Is that the one he most identifies with? Putting that up there along with the book review was such a disharmony. He might as well be doing a piece on J.F.K. and the Cuban Missile Crisis with a photo of J,F.K. in diapers as a toddler. To re stimulate mothers across the world.
Thanks Paul I feel the same way!
Tony will post every comment, critical of him or not. Not like this blog. He gave an honest review of your book. You didnt like it. But you have to yet to tell me about his review, what was untrue?
Hello Paul,
I don’t like Tony Ortega’s Blog and the lot of his “descriptions” of Scientology.
But I really believe that he considers his activities as something which helps a higher purpose.
I can’t see, that he is evil, really.
He started this game decades ago and he is so deeply convinced that if he would change his mind about the core principles of Scientology, he would lose himself. That’s all.
In Scientologese we call something like this a “ethics blind spot”.
“All former Scientologists are welcome to delude themselves into believing that they have experienced good things from Scientology”.
This is about as irrational as it gets. One’s experience with Scientology – the organization – is one thing and one’s experience wit the Scientology – the tech – is a completely different thing.
Bloch is saying he knows more about all former Scientologists than they know about themselves.
Arrogant, immature and absurd.
No, I am sure he was the guy who hast stolen LRHs typewriter in his past life.
😀
(Sorry Tony, joke!)
Tony is far from a Merchant of Chaos. Investigative reporters serve a highly important purpose on this planet. Challenging and questioning authority is vital to a free society. It is a very high cause.
If you took the challenge I asked Mark to take, and this is the result I would say you are demonstrating bigotry.
I guess I was a little harsh on those peoplle who post on Tonys blog. I too had some bad experiences in scientology and had noone who would listen. I donated lots of money to the IAS too. I just feel that life is too short to dwell on how much of a victom I have been. But of course everybody has a right to their opinion. I just happen to like the tone level of Martys blog better. It makes me feel good.and I am tired of feeling bad.
Wow—talk about the blind leading the blind. This guy is never ever going to Look.
I’m not sure how I sound like a Church member, but then again you should know. After all, you are one of the key people who made the Church of Scientology what it is today.
Actually, it’s pretty simple. Tony sees everything through his preconceived ideas. He’s never even tried to run an engram, if anyone told him they benefitted from doing so he’d instantly poo-poo it, and now if he were to attempt to run one himself he’d balk and give his auditor a hard time so he could still be right in the end to “prove” it didn’t work. He has nooooo idea. Yet he thinks he does and he’s all that and then some.
If he spent a minute of his valuable time actually experiencing it, maybe I’d have a little more respect for the guy. His battle against the known Radical Church of $cientology injustices will only take him so far.
I know more about the hatred and egotistical nature of Scientology than a lot of ex-Scientologists. I was a rank-and-file Sea Org member. When the shit rolled downhill, I was always at the bottom. I had no option to escape the church the way these well paid and well connected higher-level Sea Org members did.
I didn’t have a car, a license, or permission to leave PAC Base. I didn’t have access to the internet. My family would not support me had I left the Sea Org. I was a child, with everything to lose living in an insular bubble of hate and despair.
I had no option to declare the things I studied as “metaphorical”.
Challenging is great—good stuff. Yes, a high cause. But what happens when you get answers that you don’t like or that you didn’t expect? Ignoring them or invalidating them as nothing is not any part of a high cause. It’s actually kinda low to take honest answers from someone else and throw them in the garbage because they don’t fit your own ideas. Where does the reporting start and end then?
A challenging reporter might very well get some things back at him that he didn’t expect–it’s what he then does with it that puts him on the high-low scale.
Another brilliant post, O. You are so correct in your observation. My experience was very similar. I was about ready to walk out of the comm course because I couldn’t get the hang of bullbaiting, just couldn’t figure it out. The supervisor cared enough to drop everything else, spend as much time as needed to help me over the hump. That help alone meant a lot to me and told me something about the people on staff at that org. All of whom I had contact with, were there to HELP.
It was a whole different world then.
Worse still, altering the facts one did observe; which he did aplenty.
Grow up or go back to Tony’s blog.
I can agree with Mark Bunker on this one point, namely that it would be an act of kindness to tell those who were the recipients of harassment what really happened.
I’m not sure that’s what Tony has done. He has expressed disappointment that the book isn’t the book he wanted. It’s not the first time a critic has been disappointed that way. But I made a response to Marty earlier that he hasn’t approved. Doesn’t that equate with taking “honest answers from someone else and throw them in the garbage because they don’t fit your own ideas.”
Those who like to wear the badge of Investigative Reporter are not all made the same. And any one of them who has made a career positioning themselves in one way will only readily appreciate those revelations that reinforce their long standing points of view. Tony O is unfortunately very fixated. And many of his neophytes over there are just plain blind and hateful. They appreciate Marty only when he shows distance between himself and any Church policies or practices. I see his Underground Bunker as more of a hotline, gossip column and online tabloid than an investigatory branch of journalism. Objectivity seems to be sorely lacking.
He’s got a franchise to protect.
Paul, as I’ve mentioned more than a few times previously, I always both enjoy and benefit from your posts. This time though, I was surprised. When I read…”My sense is that for many of you, your vision is that one day the good in Scientology will prevail and that many more people on this planet will see their lives improved, elevated, as a consequence of that. This appears to be your aspiration and in that, it is a noble one.”…a thought, like they so often do, drifted in and out. The thought: nomenclature can liberate but it can also captivate. By the way Paul (if you’re perhaps thinking this about now), in my universe, there is no such thing as non sequitur. Everything is connected. If I don’t get the connection that’s my bad. Do I get the connection with what you wrote and the thought that drifted in? Yes, I do. Am I able to articulate that connection? No, not at this time.
Then I read: “I have dedicated nearly 40 years of my life to a higher cause, and appreciate the company of those, regardless of path and beliefs, who have done so also. ” And this thought appeared….I actually spent 32 years riveted to what one person was telling me about how ‘it’ was, how ‘it’ is and what ‘it’ will most probably be. And I really believed it all. Wow! What a fantastic trip that was!
Thanks Paul.
It is ok that he doesn’t understand. Not being a seeker of spiritual truths how can he be expected to?
His function is media exposure of this hateful organization and not support of spiritual endeavors.
So he thinks its all bunk…….. so what. A lot of it is supreme bunk. To someone with no real spiritual experiences there is no differenciation between supreme dangerous bunk and soul realizations.
This will be my first Marty book:-)
I am admittedly inexperienced, and I do have a lot of growing up to do. Unfortunately it’s been a bit hindered because I spent most of my life defending myself from being labeled a “1.1 faggot” by the community within the Church of Scientology.
Trying to pretend you are someone you really are not can hinder anyone’s growing up.
I respect someone like you, who has more life experience than I do.
When I first heard you had left Scientology, I was hopeful that maybe you would come out swinging and sticking up for the little people like me who’s lives have been decimated by the way they were treated at the hands of an organization of which you were once second in command.
Unfortunately, I found out that you had started a group of people, who are practicing the same thing, but under a different banner.
I couldn’t look at myself in the eyes for years, Marty. Because Hubbard’s writings taught me that I was evil. I thought that killing myself was the most viable option because maybe I would “key out” of my “gay engram”. My father even surreptitiously suggested it as a solution: process R2-45.
I just don’t understand: with the things you have personally witnessed and in which you have even taken part, all of it justified by the words and actions of Hubbard, how can you still condone this nightmare?
You were capable of escaping. My little brother, who is in PAC Base security for the next billion years, he doesn’t have an escape. Just like I didn’t have an escape.
I think you are avoiding the point of Mark Bunker’s post.
Tony’s blog and your blog have nothing to do with what Mark Bunker was saying.
Mark Bunker made a very good point about how you yourself would like to have answers to what was going on behind the scenes as you were fair-gamed. So would ANYBODY who has been fair-gamed by the Church. You can provide answers like this for many people. Yet you are not – even 9 years and three books after leaving the Church.
Why would you avoid Mark’s point like that?
Alanzo
Read the book and judge for yourself.
Oracle, you touch on something here that you have touched on before. Help. It was a buried grievance (I now prefer the word grievance to charge) of mine. The church was very screwed up on help and, being in that environment for as long as I was, it rubbed off. I could say a lot about that but I really don’t need too. It’s all been forgiven. 🙂
No such response ever arrived here Mark. Man, you are quick to jump to judgment. Get a grip big fella.
I wrote a 326 page book. You and Mark have apparently decided to judge it on the word of your opinion leader; sight unseen. Your new cult is apparently as devoid of free thought as the one you obsess with lambasting.
Read the book and find out.
Read the book and find out; unless you’ve decided to follow your guru’s advice.
That’s exactly what everyone wants… some ACCOUNTABILITY so it can be put to good use killing this evil entity that continues to hurt good people. Don’t you GET it?
Kingpin Marty, by his own vague admissions, has committed crimes and damaging activities against other individuals and their families in the name of LRon and Scientology… and feels not enough remorse to fess up about it with specifics that might help prevent the harm to more.
And I don’t think it is Tony Ortega who is worried his income will suffer if Scientology is put to rest permanently. Nope… he is a journalist with skills he can easily transfer to other topics and positions. What skills has Marty got??? What’s HE going to do for a crust when Scientology (in all it’s evil forms) is dead in the water?
Another cult member who has judged a book he hasn’t read.
Nah… Indies aren’t the only ones who KNOW a little something about Scientology. Someone already pointed out the error from his own commentors. But it’s cute how you think we’re all morons…
Are you implying that Tony (oops) missed a page where you did detail such criminal and morally reprehensible acts against others who deserve to know the truth. Well, gosh then, I better pony up the cash and go buy a copy myself.
Do you really believe that Tony missed, misunderstood, or deliberately left it out? Really?
No… now you GROW UP, and MAN UP!
Now I appreciate your comment Rod! I LOVE word meanings and significance’s! “Cult” does NOT from the word, “Culture”.
True or false?
“Culture (Latin: cultura, lit. “cultivation”) is a modern concept based on a term first used in classical antiquity by the Roman orator, Cicero: “cultura animi”. The term “culture” appeared first in its in Europe in the 18th and 19th centuries, to connote a process of cultivation or improvement, as in agriculture or horticulture. In the 19th century, the term developed to refer first to the betterment or refinement of the individual, especially through education, and then to the fulfillment of national aspirations or ideals.”
“The etymology of the modern term “culture” has a classical origin. In English, the word “culture” is based on a term used by Cicero in his Tusculan Disputations, where he wrote of a cultivation of the soul or “cultura animi”, thereby using an agricultural metaphor to describe the development of a philosophical soul, which was understood teleologically as the one natural highest possible ideal for human development. Samuel Pufendorf took over this metaphor in a modern context, meaning something similar, but no longer assuming that philosophy is man’s natural perfection. His use, and that of many writers after him “refers to all the ways in which human beings overcome their original barbarism, and through artifice, become fully human”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture
Note, the word “culture” was coined in late 18, 19 century.
The word CULT, is from the 17TH CENTURY! YES!
“Culture” sprung from “Cult”.
“The word originally denoted a system of ritual practices. The word was first used in the early 17th century denoting homage paid to a divinity and borrowed via the French culte from Latin cultus “worship”, from the adjective cultus “inhabited, cultivated, worshipped”, derived from the verb colere “care, cultivate.”
In the 1930s cults became the object of sociological study in the context of the study of religious behavior.
In 1932 American sociologist Howard P. Becker separated “Cults” into four dynamics. “ecclesia” and “denomination”, and “sect” and “cult”. He labeled and categorized these. So now, these all have separate meanings although they are all cults.
Now others have split these into greater dynamics. Including “political cults”.
More reading here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult
It means today, any group that is cultivated through common purpose. Where some degree of worship is streaming through the glue that holds it together. If worship plays a part, it is a cult.
Any group out here pledged to worship a person or institution, is part of a cult.
Now, just consider the groups all across America that stand up every morning, place their hands over their hearts, and start out with: “I pledge allegience, to the Flag………”
Yes Rod, even the Board of education is a cult.
The army is a cult. The navy is a cult. Beauty shops are regular cult meet up joints. Where people gather to worship hair. Restaurants cater to cults of food worshippers.
This blog however, and the people who share ideas through it, are not a cult. This is a writers group. People write. People read. They exchange ideas and visions. There is no worshipping required.
You seem to have charge on “former members’ and their characteristics are described by you as if they are now one entity.
I can assure you, you do not know me. And it seems you are communicating to a fixed idea of a personality here instead of to people. “Former” means “past”. Getting stuck in other people’s past, in addition to your own, suggests greed.
You only use the phrase “Former Members” three times in a short two paragraphs. I would say the phrase “Former members” is a charged item for you. I would address if that I were you.
Why not just resend/retype it. Marty has accepted some very different points of view on this blog. If you did send it and it wasn’t received, just resend it. (OMG—that would be Nasty Old Training Routine #3.)
On second thought you better not–you’d be applying logic and one of the communication skills taught in that stupid basic Comm. Course.
Read up on Houdini.
Monte
I’m not sure I fully understand what you say. Let me do my best to reply…
You write: “And this thought appeared….”I actually spent 32 years riveted to what one person was telling me about how ‘it’ was, how ‘it’ is and what ‘it’ will most probably be. And I really believed it all. Wow! What a fantastic trip that was!”
If I understand correctly, you refer to what happened to you, and to bitter feelings that you have about what happened during these 32 years.
What I was meaning to say is that while, looking back, the time could have been used better, also, the sincere dedication that kept you motivated these 32 years, is not lost. 32 years of dedication shapes character, builds integrity (unless one follows directions as a brain-dead robot, which I don’t think you did). Maybe Im overgeneralizing, I dont know..
I meant to say that, instead of some resentment that you may feel, it is possible that these 32 years were not lost…that whatever happened also ushered some wisdom which you are enjoying now and you did not have before. And that is a cause for celebration..
Regarding my comments about investigative journalists, I’m sure that, as Xenu TV writes, who render a service to humanity. And there are some whose only motivation is to raise hell and make a buck. Nothing new under the sun.:)
Cheers. Paul
I’m saying Tony is so obsessed with seeing evil that if he sees little, if anything, else. He just plain misrepresents what is in the book and what it is about. The proof? Read the book. If he doesn’t get a grip he’ll find himself becoming that which he so obsessively resists. Ya’ll are becoming a cult – fighting so insistently solely on the opinionated word of your opinion leader. Get a grip Pal.
I would say your parents inserted you into that situation. If you were a child in the Sea Org. I got inserted into foster care also, in situations that made the Sea Org look real good. However, when I hit the streets at 14, I was debt free. I didn’t owe anybody anything. I had nobody to answer to except the mirror. I knew then, it was up to me whether or not I liked what I was seeing when I looked there. And, I decided not to pass judgement on parents, until I had my kids of my own and raised them differently. When I had kids, they became more important to me than the parents I had. That I was even trusted by them, to be my children, was an honor. Whatever misery I had taken on, helped me to be sympathetic to their plights, so I was grateful for it.
May I ask, Who you are responsible for at this time?
One of the hardest questions I ask myself when someone is pointing out a flaw in my nature, ” is what they are saying true.” My initial reaction is to protect and defend some position and point out their flaws.
After overcoming my natural reaction to emote my protective barrier, then I can ask myself the question calmly. It is an ego devastator. But it quells the fight, the judgements.
If I find that the criticism of me is not true, then I am in a state of mind to discuss points of views to attempt to persuade with words of reason.
Otherwise, if I am not centered two outcomes happen: If their criticism is correct, I miss an opportunity for growth, self knowledge and self correction.
If their criticism is wrong and I am not centered, then I may miss the opportunity to bring understanding to the person and may make things worse with ad hominems.
I hope these words are received in the spirit they are offered.
That photo would have been from approximately the time of the book’s timeframe, right? So how is that irrelevant?
Θ Excellent!
Such a review by Ortega is comparable to a Suppressive Person Declare from RC$ issued to an upscale, upstat, theta person. It is an indication that you are doing great.
Oh well. He seeks sensationalism but can’t get it. He seeks to blame others and run a make-wrong. Ortega and his followers can continue to swim in sewage at their preference. I enjoy and prefer clean, clear water. 😉 You are doing great Mate! Θ
Jeb asked for your opinion, Marty… and I’m curious too, where and how did Tony’s interpretation fall down? What was untrue?
Read the book and judge for yourself.
lol… You obviously aren’t aware of this, but if you did that Marty would just ban you for a couple of weeks. I know, because when I’ve tried to do what you suggest that is what happens to me. He is a sly one. I’ve been criticised so many times for being a ‘flit in flit out’ commentor, but the truth is that it’s because my posts are often rejected or I am banned… and Marty doesn’t let anyone know he’s done it… he just lets them continue to criticise without setting them straight.
My moderation policy has been published and re-published. You violate it, your comments are deleted. This is a communication forum, not a grafitti wall for deviants.
Derek, you’ll find few if any of the commenters here on Marty’s blog will take you to task because you are gay, or young, or inexperienced. Most of them will, however, profoundly disrespect you for hanging on to the self-pity and victimhood. Why don’t you let go of that? You’ll probably respect yourself more, too.
Right, he is treating it like a crime or political scandal. For sure there is crime and politics involved. It is more complex than that, is exactly my point.
I will read your 326 page book. And I will see for myself if Tony Ortega’s review is accurate.
I very much appreciate the direction that you have taken in recent months, and I have to believe that this book *must* contain something of use to those who have been harmed by Scientology.
That’s what I am looking for – a reckoning of wrongs for those who have been harmed by Scientology.
Aren’t you, as well?
Alanzo
Yes.
Sorry, Marty. I guess my response got lost in the ether. I responded to your challenge to read Tony’s blogs and comments and yours and see which was really a cult. I don’t think either are cults and calling either a cult or either of you a cult leader is a thought stopping technique. Both of you let opposing views be expressed. Both of you have fans. Sometimes things written by both of you can piss off those fans.
My original comments were not based on the reading of the book. They were based on what Tony felt he wanted from the book and was missing. If I had come away from Tony’s review and said the book was worthless and no one should read it then I would indeed be in the wrong. If I read a review of a book on Thomas Jefferson and his slaves and the reviewer pointed out that there was no mention of Sally Hemmings and the children sired by Jefferson then that would be a glaring omission and to comment on that omission one doesn’t need to read the full book. Will you be making a Kindle version available? I have tired of shelves full of books and prefer a digital copy.
I think my missing comment also dealt with the value of a confessional. In corporate Scientology it seems confessions are all but beaten out of people. If there is an value on confessions at all they have to come on their own time. You have to be ready to talk about the details of those covert operations. We can’t force you. When you started this blog, you probably wouldn’t have posted about Hubbard’s share of the blame for disconnection. The time has come when you’re now ready to face that and face the disapproval of some of your readers.
I hope the time will come when you and Gerry Armstrong can bury the hatchet and talk openly about the actions taken against him. I know there’s a lot of anger on both sides but not withstanding the anger, I believe at some point it will be a good thing for both of you to get the info about those covert actions out. I know Marc Headly and Mark Ebner both are appreciative of the info you’ve given to them.
The attacks on Paulette Cooper were before your time I believe. What was uncovered in the raids about the actions taken against her went a long way to answering her questions. Other aspects remain a mystery like the identity of the man who was sent in to befriend her and report on her daily activities while pretending to be her close friend. She deserves to know his real name but likely never will. That’s a shame. Gerry and others deserve answers, too and you and Mike can fill in many of the blanks. When you’re ready I think that too will help you move on up a little bit higher.
Well, I just did try to reconstruct it but it may have gone missing again.
Oops, this time it seems to be waiting for approval.
I thought so, Marty.
I can tell. I can see it in your writing.
I’m buying the kindle version right now…
Alanzo
We must be on different calendars. The book was only released a few days ago the author is not a Sea Org Member and the category is “Memiors”.
Thanks.
Readin’ it!
Thanks Mark. As you well know there is zero back off on disclosing anything and everything. You asked me a question I had an answer to on McPherson and look what happened. I had no problem telling you that – but for rapidly refreshing my memory for detail. That is journalism. What bothers me about Tony is that he assumes I am going to be like many others before who will say whatever titalates his prurient interests – truth be damned. And so he misses the forest for some omitted trees he had mocked up in his imagination. Given his review, I think you will be astounded by some of the revelations you’ll read. As I think you will see from the book there nary a dull moment in my twenty-seven years in. If I chronicled every day and every matter, it would take a dekology. I don’t have the time nor resources for that. I don’t see what purpose it would serve. I covered what was important to me in the big scheme of things. Once you’ve read it, if you have questions – by all means, as always – I’ll do my best to answer them. Yes, now available on Kindle.
We are given experieces in this life to teach us lessons and help us grow. If we dont learn from them and dont take responsibility for our part in them, then we will probably be given more similar lessons. If we want to move on up a little higher, we need to understand that it does us no good to blame someone or something else for where we now find ourselves. Lets move on.
That is what my book is all about.
I’m still not seeing the Kindle version available but will pick one up when it is. I don’t think Tony disregards truth. He seems to fact check everything he writes. In the case of my McPherson video interview with you, he couldn’t actually put it on his blog because he had no second source for your assertion about the signed agreement between Scientology and Joan Wood but he could comment on your assertions and your story allowed the Tampa Bay Times to get Wood’s attorney to at least admit he accepted gifts from Scientology. Tony may have come to conclusions you disagree with but he certainly is careful about facts. As with any blog, he mixes in opinion and his will vary greatly from yours.
Tony is not coming to conclusions with which I disagree. He is whining, and denigrating me personally, while mischaracterizing content, because I don’t walk lock step with the extremists.
Well, let’s keep it real. Tony did a “review” until the last sentence. Then he tosses out a psychiatric evaluation that undermines the author in such a degrading method as to invalidate any work issued from him:
“But after getting through this book’s 326 pages, it’s even clearer to us that Marty Rathbun hasn’t even begun to understand himself or what he did in the name of Scientology.”
I ask you, who does that? And Who is “us” , in his statement, “It’s even clearer to “us”?
Tony sat on Marty’s couch in Marty’s home and was treated with kindness and respect. Marty has never made statement’s as to Tony’s mental state or condition. Who is Tony to declare that Marty doesn’t understand himself, an armchair psychiatrist? Tony doesn’t talk or write of himself or about himself. He has shared NOTHING of himself. He shares the dirt he digs up on others.
That said, Tony does not represent any major or accredited periodical, a publishing house or paper that accommodates book reviews. He is just chatting on a blog he himself supports and creates so he can say whatever he wants to say. I don’t think anyone would Google his name for a book review. I don’t even know if he reads books apart from Scientology scandal pieces. He seems most purposeful in his final psychiatric evaluation of the author in this instance, and giving a final verdict assessment on someone’s guilt.
We wouldn’t know what Tony is innocent or guilty of, he does not share a memoir. He confesses to nothing.
That is NOT a book review. Even though it is cloaked under that heading.
It is a judge giving his final word after a testimony, mixed with a shrink tossing in evaluations.
Tony is an entertainer. He has fans. His fan club is a special interest group. Marty’s interests and experiences are beyond that special interest group, which is a group of unhappy customers.
It is not going to assist Tony is any way, to acknowledge that there could be a happy customer, who is simply aware that there are unhappy customers. Tony’s life is devoted to unhappy customers. That is where the applause is coming from. The fireworks happen over there when a head gets put on a pike or there is a whiff of blood spill in the air or the promise of blood spill. He is Spartacus in the arena. It is his DUTY to spill blood for the fans.
I think some will continue to sit around an reminisce their versions of ‘how bad it all was when it existed’.
Publius, I know the feeling!
Doing bull baiting well is an awesome responsibility for the coach, that I found very intimidating in the beginning. Fortunately I had some very good and kind people who modeled it for me and corrected me in just the right way when I was like a bull in a china shop while bullbaiting someone.
It is a big responsibility, to do it right for the benefit of the person you are coaching.
Ortega expected more dirt, whether it exists or not, and like a spoiled child having tantrums of twists (staring contests … seems he can’t even get that right) and denigrations of the subject itself when he doesn’t get it. If there were anything positive about Scientology, don’t expect it to pass his dirty laundry filters or shades of black. For someone who devotes so much time to the subject, he should minimally get himself acquainted with all aspects of it than reporting on it from a particular biased perspective only. But then his readers expect this type of diet.
he book arrived today and I’ve read the first 3 chapters. Terrific unpretentious first-person narrative!
I am not coming back in my next life as your child.
Hey Marty,
I don’t know how many times you have said on this post that people should read the book….read the book….read the book……. Well, I think that is a good idea. The other night I decided to carefully re-read your first book because I realized that when I first got it I was very busy and more or less “skimmed” large parts of it. As I re-read it, I have to say that it just keeps getting better and better. It is very balanced. I find that while it is about “what is wrong with Scientology” as it is often mis-practiced, it is also about “healing through understanding” as the title says. I plan to take the time to read your new book just as thoroughly. Obviously, a lot of people find the SUBJECT of Scientology interesting and find that it is helpful to them in their lives. Though he does not arrive at the same conclusion, Tony should at least make an effort to truly appreciate that other people find the subject or parts of it helpful to them. He should also be able to appreciate that some decent, intelligent people feel that way and also observe that they then remain decent and intelligent. Otherwise, he becomes the kind of cultish bigot that he is objecting to.
As for people who have not yet read your new book bickering over what it says or doesn’t say, or left out, they should “read the book” first.
Read the book.
I think that is good advice and, who knows, doing so might resolve some of the squabbles and quibbles manifesting themselves here today.
“Well, plenty of people have been harmed by actions taken while Mike and Marty were in a position of power.”
I have startling news for you, Marty and Mike were staff just like everyone else was staff. Nobody in the Sea Org or on staff in the Orgs has ANY POWER, except to do what they are told. This is taught as an “ability to flow power”. Marty and Mike did not play any role different than what everyone on staff played.
The Sea Org are a bunch of homeless people who work all day, one day at a time and get a bed at night if they did alright. The Sea Org staff are welfare recipients dependent upon the Church Government for food clothes bed and shelter. How is that a person with power? What fucking POWER are people talking about? A couple of volunteer staff ? They didn’t even have to POWER to give someone a car ride somewhere or walk around the block with out permission.
There are a LOT of HALLUCINATORY people out here who view Sea Org member as POWERS. They are flat broke and homeless and doing volunteer work. The pictures that get held up and the fantasies about these “Gods” who wielded their power over others is way too sticky.
The ENTIRE LOT of us were off beat citizens with broken lives looking for solutions by dabbling in the occult. Every one of us. Our lives were in ruins before we went into that place or we wouldn’t have been caught dead there.
Mission Holders had more power than Marty and Mike. They had juniors, homes, cars, friends, time, resources.
A whole lot of people out here have snorting up a whole bunch of illusion.
They WANTED to view homeless people dabbling in the occult as “Powerful”. There can be no other excuse for seeing them this way!
Marty and Mike got into handling legal flaps GENERATED BY OTHERS, NOT BY THEM. So FUCKING WHAT? That is what staff members agree to do, ALL OF THEM. And the Members support them. The entire theater is a CO CREATE. And everybody in it contributed their OWN DRAMA to the orchestra.
Marty and Mike just ADMIT it.
It is like hearing about who got “forced” to get an abortion, and not how she got “forced” to get pregnant. What homeless person dabbling in the occult is planning a family? Yet, there it is. It was happening. Someone else does not want to provide for the child and it becomes a huge civil rights issue.
We were ALL crazy and fucked up. ALL OF US. Exploratory living was a CHOICE we ALL made who got involved with Scientology.
For those out here sniffing some other reasons and excuses and hanging it all on one or two staff members is as whimpy assed theetie wheetie as it gets.
I don’t feel good about those set up for losses, but to hallucinate you were pinned under some great “Power” from homeless people while tripping through magic land because it looked better than where you were coming from, I mean, nobody even wants to make a feature film about it. “Knowledge Report” is interviews, it is NOT the whole story.
Because it doesn’t quite fit in comedy and it doesn’t quite fit in action and it doesn’t quite fit in drama. “Cult life” is not all that interesting to people until serial killers are involved.
Wherever Marty and Mike were while they were on staff, they were a small part of HUGE WHOLE.
The ONLY reason Miscavige has ANY power, is because the people below him hold him up with support. The POWER comes from THEM, not HIM. If the buildings emptied out tomorrow and he had to clean his own apartment he would be fucked.
The ILLUSION spread out here about “Power” is UNREAL!
Do you think Miscavige is in charge because he is smart, able, competent, brilliant, powerful, or supernatural rightful?
He is charge because NOBODY ELSE WANTED THAT JOB. It involves being a slave master. He was the only one comfortable with owning that. And the slaves VOLUNTEERED.
Go on, ask everyone you speak to about their experience in Scientology what they volunteered for. Just ask that question.
We all volunteered for the same thing, the Scientology experience.
It’s like a fucking L.S.D. trip. You fall into your mind, your fears, your inner most thoughts and vulnerabilities, capabilities, and various dimensions of yourself. You hear voices you never knew lived in your head. Some people float North, some people float South. Some people never come out of it. Some find out something about themselves they did not know before. What they were capable of doing to themselves or someone else. It disturbs them if it wasn’t all they hoped it would be. It amazes them. Some just want to shift it all into an easy to understand category that really has nothing to do with them. Only it did. It had everything to do with who they really are.
Some people are fine with knowing that. Some people find it very disturbing.
Marty and Mike just went through the same experience.
Marty and Mike were off having their own trip with it.
Right thanks for the notification its out.
Gretchen, the room is suddenly brighter after reading your comment.
Thanks, that blows charge.
My apologies Paul. Last night when I posted my comment I was quite tired from a long day, had drank two beers instead of my typical one for the night and I was feelin a bit lazy. Thus, being cryptic had its appeal. 🙂
But, in my universe, there’s nothing random including being cryptic. And I very much appreciate your response as it helped to clarify some things for me.
There are numerous beneficial reasons for me to follow, participate in, and lurk around Marty’s blog. A primary one is that of excavation. This blog has proven to be an incredibly viable means for me to excavate my hidden pockets of grievances as well as unnecessary and uninspected attachments that do nothing but cloud my view. Much of the excavation is with regard to my SC experience but it extends way beyond that.
Paul, I hold no bitterness for my experience as a scientologist. Nor do I hold any bitterness for any component of that experience. I consider the 32 years that I was a scientologist to be one helluva rewarding session. Indeed, the experience was a gift and it has proven to be a gift that keeps on giving (when the cliche fits I say use it). Any ‘loss’ that I might have one time considered to be the result of my being a scientologist was in actuality only an apparancey. In truth, there was no loss just gain. My SC session opened up a plethora of doors within and there was a continuous re-cognizing taking place.
Gretchen mentioned that we are given experiences in life to teach us lessons and help us grow. I completely agree. I will add that I believe these experiences are not random and that if one can get a perspective distant enough to see the bigger picture, the experiences are indeed lessons that make up an intended and artfully crafted curriculum specifically designed to wake the individual up to who and what and where they really are. Basically, to get the person to a point where they say, “WTF is going on here?!! There has got to be a better way!!”
Paul you said: “…it is possible that these 32 years were not lost…that whatever happened also ushered some wisdom which you are enjoying now and you did not have before. And that is a cause for celebration.” So, so true Paul! That’s exactly what has happened and I am keenly aware of this. That noted, how could I possibly hold any shred of disappointment or resentment with regard to my SC experience? Overall, I don’t. Yet still, in the excavation process, fragments containing some degree of annoyance (no responsibility) come into view. But this is good because once in view, in recognition, I am able to assume cause and forgive. By the way, forgiveness is now my new (new to me) universal tool of choice and so far I am extremely pleased with its efficaciousness.
Paul, thank you so much for assisting me on my excavation process. It’s a joy!
Cheers back ~ Monte
I read Tonys review and no I have not read your book yet Marty. I will not draw any conclusions on it until I do. What I got from Tony’s review was an expectation of what he thought your should write. In my opinion Tony wants everyone to slam Scientology and LRH. There is no acceptance that anything can be right with it and so anything that falls short of this hidden standard is a bitter disappointment. You are an author and its your right to write and post whatever you decide. We will not all agree with you and those of us that have been on the inside may get enlightenment from revelations of events that mystified us for years. I don’t follow Ortega. He’s a fanatical hater. In the same respect I read your blog as an ex SO member in some hope that some things will become clearer to me as to why things happened. I have been wondering lately about LRH’s death. It will be interesting to see what you have to say about that.
Unless you have been a Sea Org member and a dedicated Scientologist its very hard to understand what its like on the “inside” and I don’t think you can really communicate that to the outside world. Your public is people that “know” this life for books like this. You don’t need to defend your writings or actions as I see you doing. Every Indie, ex scientologist, or now blown and declared SP has at some point got to take responsibility for their part in it. It was our job to keep it clean and effective. Many failed trying and some never tried at all. The next time you criticize Marty for his writings do this: Take a look in the mirror and ask yourself “Did I do anything to take responsibility for any of this?
Geeze Christ you are blood thirsty. Kill! Kill! I for one don’t care to hear your screaming hysteria and your demands for blood spilling. Try to pull yourself together, your sadism and bloodlust flows like a river.
Marty, by calling Ortega’s blog a ‘cult’ it is equal to character assassination. I’ve read his blog for years and he is open to all kinds of dialogue. He is not or will ever be a Scientologist. He doesn’t object to Scientology in general, but only their destructive behavior. He doesn’t ban anyone that doesn’t agree with his viewpoint. You, on the other hand, have banned many people and censored many comments that are contrary to your viewpoints. How are you different from corporate Scientology in that respect? ‘Attack, never defend’ is the wrong way to go. That Hubbard policy is part and parcel what gave Scientology the bad reputation that it has. Both corporate and Independent Scientologists share one thing in common. Both cannot take criticism of any form and always go on the attack. You’ve attempted to differentiate RCS from the Independent movement, but your reaction to criticism looks very similar.
I don’t think you know what bigotry is, either.
Sorry, I don’t word clear. You have a lot of preconceptions, and I don’t think any of them are true.
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
The funny thing is, with every article, Ortega proves everything Ron said 50+ years ago about journalists, their tone level and real agenda. His observations on the subject are more accurate in terms of predictability than just about anything else he wrote or said.
Ortega’s comment that Marty hasn’t even begun to understand himself, along with his denigration of TR0, show how completely arrogant he is, while at the same time, being completely wrong.
Come on, not a one?
Thank you.
This foundation for your inane, loaded questions is bullshit, so I don’t bother to answer: You, on the other hand, have banned many people and censored many comments that are contrary to your viewpoints Ya’ll can add ‘propensity for calling the kettle black’ to the expanding cult indicia.
I wouldn’t compare him to an I.A.S. victim. Also, he doesn’t report on gossip. He’s on the front lines when it comes to reporting the current state of Scientology. If he is obsessed then bless him. I think we all are obsessed to a certain degree or another. I left the cult more than 20 years ago and I’m still following up on it. Go figure.
Hindered because you were a faggot, your words not mine, and how LRH taught you were evil. Wow.
Derek, clearly you love the victim role and now need psych drugs to actually “deal with” your own perceived dilemmas. It is too bad you got no real help, but then again, perhaps you did and perceived that as evil too.
I think his link to wikipedia is correct. Other than that, no. I wish I had Steve Hassan’s book Releasing the Bonds handy. He has a list of fallacies in it like “there are no cults” and “everything is a cult” among others. It’s worth reading, and no, the Board of Education is not a cult. The Army is not a cult. I think the Lifton characteristics of a cult work very well. But I guess nobody read Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism either. Well, here they are:
Milieu Control – The control of information and communication.
Mystical Manipulation – The manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated.
Demand for Purity – The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection.
Confession – Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group.
Sacred Science – The group’s doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute.
Loading the Language – The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand.
Doctrine over person – The member’s personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.
Dispensing of existence – The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not.
“This foundation for your inane, loaded questions is bullshit, so I don’t bother to answer:”
In the paragraph I wrote above, I only asked one question, not question(s). What’s so inane about asking how your reaction to criticism is different from the ‘Always attack, never defend’ mindset that prevails RCS?
This is for all groups, not just Scientology. Moonies, Boston, Garbage Eaters, FLDS, Heaven’s Gate, People’s Temple, and the large number of small Christian cults that account for 90% or more of the cults in the US.
Mike Rinder is on the front lines with the current news reporting the state of Scientology. There is nobody else out here reporting on the state of Scientology. Tony reports incidents, new from other sources, scandal and assessments such who are the top 25 crippling Scientology . Of recent:
TMZ The Latest To Mix Up Tiziano Lugli for Tom Cruise (star gazing)
Scientology’s Drug Rehab Network Goes On the Offensive (That’s new news?)
Scientology Gets Emotional: Claire Headley on the Tone Scale (chatting on the tone scale)
Garcias Answer Scientology’s Attempt to Disqualify Their Attorneys in Fraud Lawsuit (To be expected, not even a surprise)
Former Scientology Enforcer Marty Rathbun Examines His Past as the Church’s “Warrior” (Book review)
Word To Your Mother: Dianetics And Its Lack of Boundaries (Book review)
“I have startling news for you, Marty and Mike were staff just like everyone else was staff. Nobody in the Sea Org or on staff in the Orgs has ANY POWER, except to do what they are told. This is taught as an “ability to flow power”. Marty and Mike did not play any role different than what everyone on staff played.”
Having spoken with both Mike and Marty, I think they would agree that they were doing what they felt was the right thing to do. They were striking a blow against enemies of the organization and protecting what they felt was the only hope for mankind. That’s why I don’t blame them or the other Scientologists I’ve encountered over the years who have tried to bullbait me into some sort of confrontation. I know it’s not the bullbaiters I am hearing. I am hearing the organization’s training of these individuals being played out in real time in front of me.
Mike and Marty were not alone in “striking an effective blow” for Scientology but they were the two at the highest reaches who have taken the bold stand of speaking up about the abuses they saw and some times the abuses they had a hand in. As I’ve interviewed people for my movie, I’ve talked to people who did covert actions for the GO and for OSA. It’s good that these things see the light of day. It’s good for the victims and it’s good for the people who did the abuse.
We all just hope to have more light shine on these events. That’s all.
“That’s exactly what everyone wants… some ACCOUNTABILITY”
Good luck with your mission to get ethics in on the planet.
Then read the book already hopefully without your bias and those of tony.
Yes, he has a franchise to protect, its name is Tony Ortega and a large part of that is his pride on being the self-appointed expert on all things scientology. His achilles heel in that role is that he has no first hand experience and cannot hold a candle to Marty’s time track and understanding of the subject. His “handling ” of this Blogs growth and its authors fame and books are to now reign them in a bit with his criticisms and defamation. He does not want to loose his audience. No surprise.
“Sorry, I don’t word clear.”
Other’s don’t either. Yet you seemed annoyed when you wrote:
“I don’t think you know what a cult is. That’s not very surprising, most former members think their group is unique.”
You come off, as put off by other’s lack of education, yet assert you yourself, that you are not interested in knowing the meaning of words.
I know there is a word for this, begrudging others for what you yourself wallow in. But as there is an apparent disregard for clear meanings, I will let this fall by the wayside.
I read Ortega’s review and after reading some of his comments I am sure that I will like your book more than I expected to.
Thanks Oracle, you certainly have a clear thought
process and cleanly put it in writing.
+1
+1
+1
Just as an aside, I think it is a shame that the term “bullbaiting” is nowadays understood almost exclusively as an attempt to elicit a loss of control on the part of the person being bullbaited, rather than as one gradient step in process of helping the person get more in control of his mind and life.
As I recently posted, I originally found that bullbaiting as coach in the course of doing TRs was atfirst an intimidating and rather awesome responsibility. As the bullbaiter, you are squarely responsible for improving the other person’s ability to ‘be there’ comfortably, to getting that person a ‘win’ on the procedure. Not to make them ‘lose control’, ie, make them worse.
I think this dichotomy of bullbaiting for a constructive purpose vs. a destructive purpose clearly illustrates that Scientology is what you make of it. The knowledge it contains can be used towards good ends or bad ends depending on the purpose and intention of the person using it.
You don’t see how those apply, for instance, to military boot camps? Or to fraternity initiations in which kids have died in the course of the hazing? Or is echoed at pep rallies prior to sports contests?
You know…when you zoom out far enough and look back, this illusion ‘reads’ like a dime novel. But…zoomed in nice and close, way down into personalities and opinions,…Boy! does it ever get significant, complicated and serious.
Reading through the comments in this particular blog post brings to mind lesson 133 from the Course in Miracles. Here’s an excerpt:
“…if you choose a thing that will not last forever, what you chose is valueless. A temporary value is without all value. Time can never take away a value that is real. What fades and dies was never there, and makes no offering to him who chooses it. He is deceived by nothing in a form he thinks he likes.
“…if you choose to take a thing away from someone else, you will have nothing left. This is because, when you deny his right to everything, you have denied your own. You therefore will not recognize the things you really have, denying they are there. Who seeks to take away has been deceived by the illusion loss can offer gain. Yet loss must offer loss, and nothing more.
“Your next consideration is the one on which the others rest. Why is the choice you make of value to you? What attracts your mind to it? What purpose does it serve? Here it is easiest of all to be deceived. For what the ego wants it fails to recognize. It does not even tell the truth as it perceives it, for it needs to keep the halo which it uses to protect its goals from tarnish and from rust, that you may see how “innocent” it is.
“And so we come to the criterion for choice that is the hardest to believe, because its obviousness is overlaid with many levels of obscurity. If you feel any guilt about your choice, you have allowed the ego’s goals to come between the real alternatives. And thus you do not realize there are but two, and the alternative you think you chose seems fearful, and too dangerous to be the nothingness it actually is.
“All things are valuable or valueless, worthy or not of being sought at all, entirely desirable or not worth the slightest effort to obtain. Choosing is easy just because of this. Complexity is nothing but a screen of smoke, which hides the very simple fact that no decision can be difficult. What is the gain to you in learning this? It is far more than merely letting you make choices easily and without pain.”
“The attacks on Paulette Cooper” is such a distilled version of that theater it might as well be made in China. In the BEGINNING, Paulette Cooper was the UNDERCOVER SPY / REPORTER working an angle to discredit the Church and all of the people in it.
She won on her Goal there.
In the beginning I am sure she hoped to become somewhat famous from her story, and well paid for her efforts.
She won on her goal there. She became famous, and someone threw her a check and she was off and shopping. Settlement never disclosed.
It is so interesting these angles of the story NEVER get addressed.
The saga is only now referred to as, “The attacks on Paulette Cooper”.
Standing Ovation!
What is more pathetic are these weaklings equating themselves with Paulette Cooper. Wanna-be-harrasseds who can’t even manage enough causation to provoke it.
Paulette did indeed take a few courses so she could write about Scientology. What’s the first line of attack on someone like me? “You’ve never even taken a course.” What Paulette did was so far down the scale of outrage compared to the actual spying being done by the GO at the time. It’s shocking to think that, no matter the quality of her book, you seem to think the attacks on her were justifiable. What Paulette exposed in her book was kindergarten compared to the truly atrocious actions of the Guardians Office. Which do you think discredits the church more? Paulette’s book or the actions taken by the church against her and others whom Hubbard deemed an enemy?
I may be a lowly wog but here in the wog world Scientology has discredited itself over and over and over by its actions, from attacks on Paulette Cooper to the attacks on Marty and Mike, Disconnection, the RPF, freeloader debts and more.
Sounds like the anti extremists fit the bill.
I read Ortega’s review of the book with its undercurrent of bias against Scientology tech (Training Routines = “staring contest” – since “corrected” to bolster a facade of objectivity) but a couple things he related further piqued my interest in reading the book.
The way Ortega tells it, it sounds like you guys (Marty, Miscavige, et al) scapegoated Mary Sue and the entire G.O. (not just B-1) for following LRH orders with respect of espionage (thus throwing under the bus one entire echelon of external command and barrier to total control) and then carried on its operations in grand tradition under yours, in a kind of “Hide the Winnie” shell game. If your book confirms that, it would put the endless pounding ex-G.O. received over the ensuing two decades of costly sec checks and amends for “failing to maintain KSW” and/or “failing to maintain friendly relations with the environment” into a very interesting, hypocritical perspective. And thus further explain the BPC on KSW itself.
The other issue I can’t wait to confirm is whether the re-implementation of the disconnection policy was by LRH order, years after cancellation by Mary Sue.
These two points alone would go a long way in explaining, at least for me, how Scientology morphed from the spiritual breakthrough of the millennium into the Frankenstein that consumed it hosts.
Frankenology?
I look forward to enjoying your candor.
I never read her book, I have not contributed to her profit from her Scientology experience in any way. Neither her misery. I have never referred to you as a “lowly wog” , but have honored you with sincere communication. When I met you in Las Vegas, I even made an effort to help you with your film by recommending people here that would be worthy of an interview for you.
I live and work in the “wog world”. And in my business’ I run across scandals, scams, rip offs, out exchange, corporate greed and injustice, liars, cheats, scam artists, corporate pimps, attorneys, contractors, and all sorts of seedy activity conducted along of the purpose line of people’s professional careers and their purpose to profit. There are damaged people and dead and broken bodies from one end of the desert to the other.
Paulette went undercover and began her cycle with the Church as a complete fraud. She had her own agenda although she feigned allegiance.
I don’t like people with hidden agendas and daggers under their cloaks.
She wanted to be a dirty game and she found one.
I wouldn’t trust her to give me a pedicure. Neither would I trust the G.O..
If she got her ass kicked in her seedy mission, that has nothing to do with me. She chose her role. Just like everyone else did.
The Church has it’s crimes also, and they are more or less spilling on the table. They have chosen their role as well.
I do not see either party as victims. Just people playing cloak and dagger in social intercourse. Live by the cloak, die by the cloak.
Those people have to live with themselves, and their choices and character.
But please don’t martyr a sneaky bitch with hidden agendas playing cloak and a dagger. That just makes me want to barf.
Brilliantly said, Oracle.
Tony did himself such a disservice by making that final uneducated statement on Marty. Sadly, it has really lowered the respect I had built for him. I look at him now as being stupid . Sad, as it now taints a lot of what he says, for me
If this is an example of the type of person created by Hubbard’s tech then it is no wonder Scientology is held in such low esteem. Homo Novis indeed. You don’t need to read Paulette’s book to have sympathy with someone who was driven to the brink of suicide by the church of Scientology. It amazes me that I can feel compassion for the Scientologists abused by disconnection and all the other abuses but you are so cold and uncaring that you would react to another human being’s suffering by wanting to barf.
I seldom lose my temper but how far up the bridge do you have to go to not be a cold hearted bastard? If you are an example of the end product of Scientology’s processing then it is no wonder the world rejects it.
You choose to focus on the results of consequences of her actions, that were a challenge for her. You do not mention her victories, her profits. Plenty of people are driven to the brink of suicide over a broken heart or a child they can not feed. You lament over an undercover reporter who has been floating on payola from one incident.
The fact that you think I was “created by Scientology” or “Hubbard’s tech” is malicious slander and telling of your potential to view beyond your fixed ideas.
I have no debt to you to act or speak a certain way because I explored the occult.
I know you are used to Scientologists tolerating you for “P.R. reasons” as you bullbait them from the curb. I am not one of that group. And your “sympathy” for the oppressed is nowhere to be seen as you humiliate people on film from the curb, and publish it for people to view.
You too, have your own investments in this theater and your own message you want to deliver . You too, will edit or promote as it aligns with your agenda. You too, have a program to profit through reporting. Your patrons are the unhappy customers. You have obligations to them, not me. You too, have acquired debts which compel you to be blind. You too, have acquired debts which monitor your words and your position. Just the Scientologists you bullbait from the curb.
You seek to live with half truths, and I will only be filed and catagorized in your mind and speech in that manner.
If you think that bothers me or I will become victimized by that or will take that personally , you have set yourself up for a loss.
That is not on me big brother.
Lastly, that you are in 2013, trying to sell a guilt trip on me for something that happened to Paulette Cooper while she was out trying to hustle a buck on the streets on New York, is the shoddiest product I have been offered from a peddler in a long time.
I was a TEEN AGER working my ass off to keep a roof over my head while Paulette was going on her under cover mission to profit off of spying.
That you would try to make ME feel guilty about any part of her life is ABSURD.
I have never profited off of or harmed that women.
But I have seen hundreds of staff, including children, working 110 hour weeks in slavery to pay her tab for tripping through the halls of Scientology.
Don’t try to push SHAME BLAME and GUILT on ME because I had my own curiosities about the occult, and NONE of them were in with regards as to how I could profit off of other people’s misery!
I read Tony Ortega’s review of your new book, but disagree with those who say that Mr. Ortega is hateful. His review does not equal a hatred for you; it’s his opinion and is a viewpoint from his perspective, and while it’s not a gushy five star review, but it’s not a vitriolic zero star review, either, and thus some portions of it are going to be seen in a different light by the individual reader based on their own subjective perspectives.
I have seen Tony defend you, Mike Rinder, and others who bravely speak out about the abuses and machinations enacted by the Church of Scientology and he has made it known that while he is not and has never been a follower of Hubbard’s beliefs (like the majority of the members of society), he wants others to understand your perspective, since the subject matter is not easily understood by non-Scientologists (like myself).
Through Tony’s blog, I found out about the death of Karen de la Carriere’s precious son, Alexander, and witnessed with astonishment the cruelty and lack of compassion for her grief by the CoS. I also found out about the Headleys and their financial plight and saw how so many kind hearted people joined together to raise money for them in a short time. I witnessed the same compassion for Kate Bornstein to help her afford to pay for her cancer treatments.
Derek Bloch’s experience, reported by Tony, touched the heart of many and was the first account that I had ever read about the Sea Org, disconnection, and the horrors of the CoS’s lack of compassion and disregard to human dignity. Derek does not play the victim card. He instead shares his experiences, like you share yours, to get his story out to help others who are going through the same experience and who need support and also as a way to educate people who are not familiar with the Church of Scientology.
Derek is a survivor, much like many here, and he deeply misses his family. He also wants to help others who don’t have any support or means to escape from Scientology. He is desperately trying to put together a non-profit resource to aid those who don’t have any where to go, but needs help, since he can’t do it alone.
I have much respect, admiration and love for Derek and he is still hurting from his experiences. I will gladly defend him and invite those who feel it necessary to criticize him to criticize me instead. I would rather be criticized for defending someone I admire than be silent and allow someone to feel that no one cared enough to back them up when they needed it.
I offer my sincere and best wishes to you and your lovely wife and to all who are kind enough to read this – I apologize for the long post and appreciate you allowing me to opportunity to offer my voice to this forum. 🙂
I’m sorry but you are clearly deluded. There is no getting through to you on an human level. I will leave and let you be.
Smart choice.
Since Per your own documentation, she lured a Scientology “plant” in her life to cover her rent and vodka expense, not to mention incidentals.
Cha cing Cha ching.
I mean, I was not on staff at the time, I wasn’t even on a service. But I knew the people from when I had taken a service. And I know that some staff member’s kids went with out, probably even a warm coat in a New York winter, so Paulette could have vodka and valium.
If my bet on who was victimized during this time, is placed on the children effected by the adults profiting off of one another’s misery, and that means I am unreachable on a human level, to you, that is limited by your own vision of humans. And which of those humans bring you profit from their misery.
She was living in a swanky New York pad with a roof top pool. I know what kind of wallet attack that had to be. (That was more than the rent on the New York Org.) She was provided with a personal attendant, shopper , boy toy. Loaded on Vodka and valium. Living like a ROCK STAR.
On the backs of staff members.
Cooper counter-sued the Church on March 30, 1972, demanding $15.4 million
Cooper discontinued her legal actions against Scientology in 1985 after receiving an out-of-court settlement.
She worked the Church of Scientology for profit, between her book, and law suits and other perks , From 1969 until today. She has made a living off the Church of Scientology since 1969. And she does not have a problem spending the money taken from it’s “brainwashed victims”.
Looks like Xenu Man had to make an ad hominem strategic withdrawal. Couldn’t let the facts get in the way, I guess. Well done, Oracle. 🙂
And to clarify a half truth reported here,
I wrote:
In the BEGINNING, Paulette Cooper was the UNDERCOVER SPY / REPORTER working an angle to discredit the Church and all of the people in it.
You responded:
Paulette did indeed take a few courses so she could write about Scientology.
That was not ALL of her undercover spy work.
She BRAGGED about her fraud, and ability to be covert and gather intel.
She started with the fake identity and fraudulent intentions.
And bragged about her ability to lie and scam:
Tony Ortega:
I told Paulette that I was particularly stunned by the depth of her research on Hubbard’s background, his family, and his tall tales. (She thoroughly debunked his college claims, for example, showing that he had done poorly and left George Washington University without a degree.)
Today, we are so spoiled by the Internet and all that it provides reporters. I told her it must have been a monumental amount of work to track down all that information in the age of dial telephones and paper databases.
But she let me in on a secret: she didn’t hesitate to play a little fast and loose.
“Do you know what pretext calling is? In those days, it was the height of investigative journalism,” she told me with a laugh. (Another thing you learn about Paulette — she has a wonderful, and wonderfully wicked, sense of humor.)
“I remembered that Hubbard had written that his father was a ‘commander H. L. Hubbard,’ so I looked up the phone book in Tilden, Nebraska, where Hubbard was born,” she told me. Sure enough, there was a Harry Hubbard listed.
“I called him up and told him I was Paula Hubbard and I wondered if we were relatives.”
On that pretext, she got the old man talking. “That’s how I was able to get the names of Hubbard’s relatives. The locations of weddings, the places where I could get birth certificates,” she says.
“Harry Hubbard,” she laughs again. “He was hardly a ‘commander.’ But he was delighted to talk to me. He went on and on.”
You also wrote to Marty here:
“Other aspects remain a mystery like the identity of the man who was sent in to befriend her and report on her daily activities while pretending to be her close friend. She deserves to know his real name but likely never will. ”
But you don’t write, “I wonder if Harry Hubbard remained in mystery to the identity of the woman suggesting she was apart of his “family”, pretending to be family, a friend, while gathering intel to report and slander his own son. He deserved to know……….”
This post has certainly provoked one of the most interesting exchanges I’ve read here in a while – and for me quite revealing too. My copy can’t arrive soon enough!
Paulette: “Do you know what pretext calling is? In those days, it was the height of investigative journalism,” she told me with a laugh. (Another thing you learn about Paulette — she has a wonderful, and wonderfully wicked, sense of humor.)
“I remembered that Hubbard had written that his father was a ‘commander H. L. Hubbard,’ so I looked up the phone book in Tilden, Nebraska, where Hubbard was born,” she told me. Sure enough, there was a Harry Hubbard listed.
Definition of PRETEXTING
: the practice of presenting oneself as someone else in order to obtain private information
Alanzo – You bring up a good point. Tony O. doesn’t seem to have any problem at all with differentiating between the Co$ and the (diverse) Indies and the subject of Scientology. These are thin lines for many, and Tony is doing a great job as a reporter. If he wants to make fun of Scientology the subject, well, who hasn’t? Not pretending to put words into anyone’s mouth, but I don’t see any unreasoned hatred of Indies or even of the Co$, but I do see a pretty constant and purposeful exposition of alleged criminalities. You know (to anyone here) the whole purpose of Scientology auditing is as-is-ness, or seeing things as they are. I don’t recall reading Tony O. making fun of that. It is a hard thing for some to find the good and the worth in people and positions one disagrees with, and I think that speaks to the fragility of the individual who can only see his own viewpoint. Then again, there are some who oppose each other for the fun of it. For all the “want more” talk and “questions” about Marty, look for a minute at what he has accomplished (changing his life around to take the Co$ head-on, starting a very successful blog, writing three books, and actually practicing what he believes in), and is still doing. – Carcha.
P.S. Too bad it gets harder and harder to find good things about the Co$. I think those guys are just dramatizing the dwindling spiral out of frustration.
Not to be a wise-ass Rob Roy, but I heard “The best defense is a good offense” in football long before I read any ascription of that to Hubbard. It is good practice to look at the worth of things. Btw, I hate football – I think it’s un-American.
Oracle, That was a very touching post. I had a similar experience, people who did actually care. The problem is, I STILL don’t think I matter at all. Gad … almost no one replies to my posts, so I make them better, and no one replies even more than they didn’t before. Sniffle. You matter to me. I think your posts are scintillating, packed with truthfulness and understanding. Thank you for the background – it makes me respect you more, and wish you even better in the future.
Do you know why these subtle injustices flow like a river through society? Because Paulette, and you, Mr. Bunker, and Tony Ortega, and a few others that get stuck in Marty’s “past” or Mike Rinder’s “past”, have this viewpoint that:
1. Everything bad that happened to Hubbard, Marty and Mike, or the “Scientologists”, was (a) ridiculous, (b) unimportant, (c) deserved.
2. Everything the Scientologists and others did to the attackers was (a) very important, (b) very bad, (c) irremediable.
These ideas are the platform for racism and terrorists as they hold the scales for “justice”.
There are rights that fall above civil rights. That is right. There are rights that are senior to civil rights. There are “God Given” rights, if you will. Or, “Supernatural rights”.
One of these rights is to know the truth. To think with the truth. To see what is really there.
The highest “God given” right, is the right to fight back against an attacker. And I don’t care if you are a slave, or a woman, or a welfare recipient,or someone’s pet.
For anyone to interfere with these rights, and to degrade people or humiliate people for using them, or owning them, is to degrade the final thread of holiness given to all living things that is beneath their control and holds any promise of causative spirituality. Self preservation. When control of self preservation is taken from a living thing, there is nothing spiritual left about them.
There are two sides in every conflict. It always BEGINS with an overt or covert attack. All living things have a RIGHT, if not a DUTY to themselves, to fight back.
People say the G.O. started with the sabotage, false identities, fraud, whatever. You go back in history and take a look at WHY and HOW a few staff members got backed into a corner and attacked. And WHY and HOW they shape shifted into such devious game players and took on the cloak of their attacker to fight back. And you will find this “Paulette Cooper” figure grinning and reminiscing on Mr. Bunker’s video. Propped up as a “victim”.
When Paulette Cooper lies, defrauds, slanders, attacks, impersonates, wrecks someone career or family dynamic because someone’s parents read her magazine article or book, it is the “height of professional journalism”. And she is just “doing her job”.
When some staff members in the Church do it, it is “criminal”.
And the spectators nod and applaud. This is why you have people out here fixed on a few months of Marty’s more than two decades of staff work. Or a few incidents in his life than spans years of volunteer work.
And this is why David Miscavige is so unholy. His premise for existence within that culture is the banner, “Nobody has any RIGHTS, but me.”
And this is exactly why Mr. Bunker feels completely entitled to pop up on this blog and publish non sequitar statements like this:
“Well, plenty of people have been harmed by actions taken while Mike and Marty were in a position of power. They may still believe that those people were deserving of that harsh treatment but there are plenty people on the outside who don’t see it that way. I’m sure John Allender and everybody who’s involved with the attacks on Marty and Mike think of themselves as spiritual warriors and they’re doing the exact right thing to protect the creation that L. Ron Hubbard gave the world. They are wrong.”
He really does not recognize these rights of others to fight back.
He thinks certain people in society are supposed to lay down and take it up the ass with out a whimper.
This is why you have “squirrel busters” up on Marty’s front porch. They don’t think Marty has any rights either!
These people have the SAME issues! No awareness of the rights of others.
Paulette talks about how she was afraid to leave her apartment, in New York?
Hubbard was NEVER seen in public again after two hits from journalists!
Paulette was afraid for her life in New York? In New York at that time for 500.00 you could pay a police officer in the homicide department to off someone! If anyone had the purpose to Murder that woman it would have been that simple.
People that have no awareness of the fundamental rights of others are getting paid, and building up fan bases, publishing “facts”, documentaries and stories.
And it is on BOTH SIDES of every quarrel. In every corner.
As far as Hubbard goes there is a GROSS error on many people’s part, to recognize how fragile Hubbard was. He cloaked it with a uniform, and helped others do the same. It was only armor. He probably didn’t know people could go effect of their clothes the way they did.
So what is the world left with?
1. Everything bad that happened to Hubbard, was (a) ridiculous, (b) unimportant, (c) deserved.
2. Everything Hubbard did to others was (a) very important, (b) very bad, (c) irremediable.
T.O.
Not that I mean to step on anybodies toes. I fully recognize other people’s God Given rights to live with lies, injustice, and illusion. Yes, that too falls under “higher rights” than “civil rights”.
But it is my right to reject this being pushed into my space with the intention that I should take ownership of it too.
The fact that Hubbard put these staff in uniforms as an illusion to ward off others or have some “power” effect on attackers, and the staff went effect of their own clothes and flipped into militia valences, only illustrates how fragile the Scientologists are.
There are former Int Base staff running around out here in Military valences, throwing “superior command power” beams at others, even after the uniform has been taken off them! LONG after, YEARS after, they have taken off that uniform.
THAT, is how fragile some people are. Their character formed from cloth.
So I do not understand this fear of Scientologists and L. Ron Hubbard.
That Mr. Bunker, and Tony Ortega, and other hystericals, are trying to sell the world.
It’s my Oriental soul, writing right to left to right. Sorry if it is put off.
Well theirs obviously a lot to say about this recent book of Marthys
and if appears from the threads its ruffled some feathers, which of course is getting ones emotions of connection to their evidence of what went on.
One can only suggest sit back take a breath while reading and take it some fresh air
Its a book for god sake , Its what was his views and what he witnessed but perhaps they aren’t of anothers views of what one witnessed or has a point ,But it shares insite from his perpective. Thats the reality..
When jon attack from UK produced his book way back in the late 80’s beggining 90’s , I forgot the name now the exact same thing occurred
sorry for the spell error .one part should read -take in some fresh air.-
I guess this is still a modified Scientology blog, so some statements won’t go through, like how one of my mocking comments did not appear on the Possibly Helpful Advice blog though others did, or the way it’s almost impossible to post cartoons of Mohammed on a Muslim board.
I don’y like football, either. But, that saying goes well for a contact sport. Hubbard used this ‘Attack, never defend’ tactic because he probably knew in his deepest heart the illegal and disingenuous acts that were committed in the name Scientology that attacking was the best course of action. Otherwise, how could you defend something that is wrong?