I have not commented much on Monique Rathbun v. David Miscavige. I believe the case stands on its own merit.
But since David Miscavige has dictated and issued a public statement in response to Monique Rathbun v. David Miscavige that centers wholly upon me, I will briefly respond. The statement calls me a coward for supporting my wife’s effort to be free from Miscavige’s organized domestic terrorism operations.
I have investigated organized crime at all levels. My life has been threatened while investigating traditional La Cosa Nostra figures on the east coast, and while investigating local branches of national street gangs in South Texas. In both cases I stood my ground and lived to tell the stories. I have studied gang and organized crime activity and had extensive liaison with experts in the subject, from local law enforcement, to the Texas Attorney General’s Office, to the United States Department of Justice. I have learned a little something about the tactics and behaviors of organized crime members.
One thing I have learned is that the heavier and organized the threat manufactured by an organized crime member the deeper the cowardice of the manufacturer of the threat. Another thing I have learned is that if anyone stands his ground against organized crime, the automatic default strategy of organized crime cowards is to attack the loved ones of the person who stands his ground.
That in a nutshell, that is what Monique Rathbun vs. David Miscavige is all about. It is about bringing to halt the to-date unrestrained practice of a policy that Scientology Inc. applies relentlessly in the face of any criticism or defiance. That policy is the memorialization of the organized crime principles I have summarized above. It is the bible of David Miscavige. It states the following:
EVOLVED OPERATING PRINCIPLES:
A. COUNTER ATTACK TO OBTAIN THE REMOVAL OF THE PERSON with a product of DISMISSED ATTACKER.
B. If on test, A is not feasible, SURVEY TO FIND WHAT THE PERSON CONSIDERS VALUABLE AND USE IT FOR RESTRAINT.
C. AVOID WHERE POSSIBLE THE COMMOTION AND WASTED ENERGY OF PARALLELING AN ATTACKER’S OWN EVIL PURPOSE OF DESTROYING HIS OWN GOVT, AGENCY OR INSTITUTION AND INSTEAD DISCOVER THE ATTACKER AND OPERATE TO COST HIM HIS JOB.
D. Where A and C fail, use B.
(a) Wherever an attack is in progress (and even when being held off by counter-propaganda from PR or actions from Legal) at once swiftly draw up a precise program using Intelligence principles and cross filing to isolate the attacker.
(b) Identify the instigator.
(c) When identified or even suspected as the instigator, draw up a project which includes at least three channels to cost him his job.
(d) Draw up a second project at once to survey and discover what the person really is defending and threaten it effectively.
(e) Execute the projects rapidly.
(f) On achieving success inform PR so that PR can call off the PR counterattack and capitalize on any information gained if it does not expose Intelligence.
(g) Inform legal so Legal can replan and utilize the information also gained to mop up.
NOTE: Intelligence in these regards is not feeding PR and Legal as the only fruit of its endeavors. It is OPERATING INDEPENDENTLY of these two functions with ITS OWN PRODUCT: I.E. A DISMISSED ATTACKER or its secondary product: a totally restrained and muzzled attacker.
– L. Ron Hubbard 28 March 1972, COUNTER ATTACK TACTICS
This policy is the institutionalization of organized crime cowardice. It is intended to and directs the ruin, and has resulted in the ruination, of the lives of innocent, well-meaning people. It was implemented against Monique Rathbun because I stood my ground against organized crime. Now, the target of the domestic terrorism it calls for is standing her ground.
You are damn right she has my full support.
I have nothing else to say, at this point.
Marty whahooooooooo, Mosey certainly has my support and I know the support of many who post here and those who do not post here. XOXX
Bye Bye DM!!!!!!!
Well said. When truth fails COB, he seeks buttons to push. But his only role is ecclesiastical leader, right? So why is he a micromanager, too?
The evil behind a policy of threatening what a person considers valuable is compounded because OSA considers it to be an attack whenever anyone tries to put in ethics on the RCS, or even comments on the out-ethics and outright crimes that are now so rampant throughout the organization. It IS organized crime, no different in pattern from the mafia. You and Mosey have my unwavering admiration and support for standing your ground against this cancer.
I notice the reference doesn’t include ‘HCOPL’. Is it a separate issue?
Poor David; attacking Monique isn’t working, so he turns his sights on you! What an idiot. Being unsuccessful in attacking just one lion, he has decided to attack two!
Marty, I didn’t see the DM dictated comment you mention – perhaps someone can post a link. Mosey and your stand is justified if only in the realm of human nature. DM is operating from LRH written decades ago for a completely different playing field – when LRH ‘thought’ he was being relentlessly pursued. So insane that the policy was designed to be ‘time less’ and everlasting as is no matter the changes in our universe – in circumstances. It seems there is little chance in the near future that any one in the CofS will ever see that they are wrong. But then again – with all the truth put out it is foreseeable. What an interesting game going on.
I still find it hard to wrap my wits around how LRH had it off and continued thinking he had nothing to be attacked and placed the blame on others even with the technology he wrote about the exact opposites.
Even though it seems this will never end and that DM and his minions will always be doing this kind of thing…..This too shall pass, and the beautiful thing about it is…they will implode from their own acts.
I know that it’s been going on for a long long time but it takes a lot to destroy someone who digs in and has tons of money and people to do their dirty work, but history has shown us that they ALL fall in the end. Patience is the key.
Keep fighting the good fight. It’s ridiculous to call either one of you a coward. You are two of the fiercest people I have ever known.
Marty, I trust that you do not own a horse that you are very affectionate towards. (Shades of the Godfather – same tactics)
Mosey is a honest-to-god super hero, she has my utmost respect. She stands along side courageous giants like Robert Boisjoly and it gives me hope.
Also, never mess with a strong, smart, black woman with the truth on her side.
As usual, in the hands of unscrupulous individuals, the above-quoted reference is run in reverse.
I could write a long letter about this idea of “protection” for an organization who purports to be here for all Mankind, but by their own actions show it is here for its own self preservation. But I like short and to the point so I will just tell you Marty that I am 100% with you and Monique. I salute Monique for being so Brave and willing to face this beastly thing she willingly put herself in front of in order to strike a needed blow. And you, being her champion, will protect her with your life and that we all know. We in turn will do everything we can to protect Both of you. Thank you both for what you are doing. There are no words to express the depth of this gratitude and acknowledgment. I salute you both forever!
Monique has been harassed in her own right. They know her case has merit and if justice prevails she will win. The only power they have is to restimulate -as LRH says. That is what they are trying to do by calling you a coward. And it is Laughable as it will have no effect. Love you guys!
It is with complete confidence that I assure you that NOBODY believes you to be a coward. And even if one were to say you were a coward, that person would be lying for their own silly reasons.
David Miscaviage does not either believe you to be a coward. If fact, I feel strongly that little David only wishes that he were you. It is simple jealousy of you and who you are which prompts his tantrums about you.
You have that which David does not. To wit:
*Genuine respect of your peers
*Genuine love of your family
*A genuine Life
*Genuine guts to lay it on the line
David KNOWS that you are no coward, and so does everyone else.
When he uses words like coward, he is looking at his own frightened reflection in the mirror.
It is sad, but true, that the small person is scared to death right about now.
He has no idea how much better he would feel if he just came clean and announced from the balcony, “I have behaved wrongly and this is what I have done….Time, place, event(s) AND TO WHOM…..
and I am sorry!” What a relief he could then feel, and so could all begin the healing process. He will not own up to his own wrong behavior as long as he himself is frightened half out of his mind.
You, Mr. Rathbun are actually a good example for him to follow, if he only would choose to.
Monique is another model of courage to all.
We are proud of what you are doing.
We are proud of the both of you.
DM is only about power – it is his drug.
Having been a juror on a gang trial: A good DA or prosecutor, with a well selected jury, can and will take out the gang member on trial.
So they are using Standard Tech. But I thought COB always alters Standard Tech, and people are leaving because they alter Standard Tech. So should COB be praised or condemned for following Standard Tech?
For me, whether he alters it or not attacks like this should always be condemned.
After leaving the CoS – I had some doubts whether I was doing the right thing. What eventually convinced me was the Church’s insistence upon unanimity of belief. “Unanimity is applied in all insane religions and ideologies, (Islam, Judaism, Communism etc) because those in control fear that a single dissenter will cast doubt in the minds of their flock. They become paranoid about dissenters and all sorts of restraints are created to prevent dissent. This paranoia now typifies the Church of Scientology.
Marty and Mosey you have the full support of those people who wanted to see the good in Scientology applied and Miscavige stood in their way.
On that note a “target” identified as such by the church of Miscavige isn’t necessarily a target that the PL is calling for action against.
And the alleged criminal acts of such “targets” might have been in essence acts of courage against the real criminals.
The infamous OSA “Three Channel Handling”
Haven’t see this since the CAN Unit I was in in 1991
27 March 1972, COUNTER ATTACK TACTICS
28 March 1972, INTELLIGENCE PRINCIPLES
Strength and Wisdom
I think it is people propping DM up, not money. Yes, he can buy himself defence. But what to do, when the members walk away?
I have a feeling that this is one case that is not going to be settled out of court before a trial can be held. And, as the noose of a subpoena appears to be tightening around DM’s pencil neck I get the feeling that at some point he and his high priced lawyers are simply going to throw in the towel and pay whatever damages Mosey is asking, all court costs and be forever barred from darkening her doorstep again. After all, what is some millions and a permanent injunction when there is still a mountain of cash at your disposal and your PR is already at the bottom of the Marianas Trench?
Well, these instructions kind of lay the truth bare, don’t they. It’s tricky to walk the tightrope between benevolance and defending yourself. Love as a defence either did not come to LRH’s mind, or else he gave up on (or gave into) it.
I realised just recently that a lot of the stuff we say about others is really about us. What is Miscavige saying? It’s about himself and it is not flattering.
That above handling as laid out by LRH has reminded me of a niggling question I really want an answer to. Please tell me, Marty, or anyone else if you know the answer or have some idea about it – why is it, in Scientology one thinks “anything goes” to defend it? And I do mean “anything”, without qualms. I grew up in a Co$ environment, was never trained, either in admin or tech, yet came away with this idea. Even now I feel utterly emotionless when reading this or similar texts, or seeing what has been done. Does this idea really permeate the culture or is it just me?
That must be Original L Ron Hubbard authorized Guardian Office material being from 1972 when L Ron Hubbard was at sea.
List of Guardian’s Office operations
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“From its establishment in 1966 to its demise in the early 1980s, the Guardian’s Office (GO) of the Church of Scientology carried out numerous covert operations and programs against a range of perceived opponents of Scientology in the United States and around the world. The GO sought to discredit, destroy or otherwise neutralize – or “depower”, in Scientology jargon – any group or individual that it regarded as anti-Scientology. Instructions for such operations were distributed in the form of individually numbered “Guardian Program Orders”, abbreviated as GPgmOs, which were distributed from the GO leadership to GO branches in Churches of Scientology and ultimately used to task agents.”
Cece, neither have I been able to wrap my wits around the LRH writings that are exact opposites. The issue quoted in the blog post is a perfect example of the misapplication of the ethics principle of “greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics.”
But I will say that LRH wasn’t just imagining that he was being pursued – heavily so, in fact, which was something Marty made very clear in his last book. It’s actually a matter of public record that the AMA and APA in cahoots with various government agencies were determined to destroy Scientology.
As for the policy quoted in the blog post being “designed to be timeless” I think the one Marty quoted, which isn’t an HCOPL, may have been an issue strictly for OSA, and I believe such issues are supposed to expire after a certain period of time. Regardless of that, however, DM will use what fits his criminal purposes.
Marty — perfect summation.
I would also note that there is additional “tech” on costing someone their job. The reference is “Intelligence Principles” and it details how to go about framing someone. I will let the readers draw their own conclusions as to whether the incidents that occurred to Monique at work might align with this dictate (and note this is only one of the examples given in the issue):
“Example: Gosh Porge is located as an antagonistic source
in the Bureau of Mines. Study Bu of Mines. They frown on corrupt and bankrupt employees, it is carefully worked out by survey. Gosh Porge receives a check for 250 pounds from the Aluminium Company of America at his office for “tip off and patents sent” and “his wife” runs up fur coat bills at Harrods who sue and “a man in Soho” wants his 1800 pounds gambling debt and “a mistress” calls his boss and demands the return of her diamonds “Gosh borrowed” and as it keeps up, even Gosh Porge’s best denials won’t prevent his being sacked.”
This IS “LRH Policy” and it is to be followed to the letter within the RCS. Miscavige himself asserts it is his role to ensure the purity of the writings and application of the words of L. Ron Hubbard. You can bet some people were made to wordclear this and “Counter Attack Tactics”…
This lawsuit has allowed Monique’s legal team to get hold of the slimy tail of the squirming snake. Their grip tightens with every effort it makes to get away. It will eventually be dragged out of its hole and into the sunshine for the world to get a clear look at it — all the way to its hissing, venom spitting head that likes to remain buried and goes into spasms when exposed to light.
Mary — I second this comment 100%
Or maybe at the time LRH did think that such a shotgun approach was “the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics.”
He’ll be a big shot in the real-estate bussiness
I thought he said he didn’t know you?? 🙂
Marty, I guess the fact of the matter is here that if the Church of Scientology were to apply this exact handling tech to themselves they might be able to stop themselves from putting themselves out of business before it actually happens for good. But, who am I to be yet so wise in a world such as this? 🙂
Mary, my response to Marty’s post was half written when I read your reply and you expressed my thoughts more eloquently than I. Thanks.
Marty, Mosey, my steadfast admiration and best wishes to both of you.
Should you ever need any help, you need but to ask. You both have a deep pool to draw from.
Marty and Mosey.
I so support you.
Thank you once again for taking it all on which results in a better scene for all of us and brings light to the crime syndicate’s continuing crime wave.
I have an important announcement to make, inspired by the Monique Rathbun lawsuit.
I am now set up with special equipment to video for my YouTube channel anyone in the world with no travel to Los Angeles involved. (similar to video conferencing.)
If anyone was the brunt of “Church” criminality including held against will, held in isolation, beaten, bullied, targeted, RPF’d, Truth Rundowned, save “Reg” cycles, gang bang sec checking, gang bang auditing, gang bang regging etc etc, and want your story told for a Global audience, please Email me at Karendelac@gmail.com.
You could be on the air in 24 hours !
And she has all my support too plus the one of many others. Whatever you need, let me know. You have a full back up.
Wtf? How is it “reverse”?
My take is that there are as yet unspecified damages and perhaps the jury will be asked to weigh in on an appropriate amount for damages! In any case, I don’t think this is headed for settlement out of court. If Miscaviage has to testify, he will do himself in. This is all about fighting the good fight allowing the energy of the attacker to take himself out. This is all about a few good men …and women!
The weak link would be to convict DM personally, with verifiably NO church monies to be used to pay ALL costs and huge damages.
You may not have anything else to say at this point but I have: Anybody who has met Mosey cannot help but be enchanted by her ready wit, warmth and compassion. Sam told me once how Mosey scoured the beach for nice shells and trinkets for my daughter (7 at the time), knowing how much she liked them, and put on the wall the drawing Alicia did for her. A simple act, but it speaks volumes about the person she is. I don’t know if you really know how much goodwill there is for you both across the world, and how many people are sending you good wishes, prayers and energy. The whole world knows very well who the coward is in this matter and it sure isn’t you or Mosey.
Marty, I think anyone that has looked at this situation knows that you and Mosey stand up for each other! You two have really suffered much with DM and his looney bin and he is squealing like a pig.
Throughout history, when governments, dictators, etc start getting noisy, it is just before they fall. And everyone that has been abused by DM is just waiting with bated breath. The end of the mind control, the PI’s and Disconnection is near.
To those of you lurking, I know how you feel, I was in the same place as your are right now:
I don’t want my family to Disconnect from me
I don’t want to lose my job
I don’t want to lose my customers
I don’t want PI’s to investigate me
I don’t want to have my name on the Internet
I don’t want to be declared a Suppressive Person
Well, I lost my daughter and step daughter to this Cult when I started asking questions. I have gone thru unbelievable pain and hardship to have my only biological daughter just quit speaking to me. The daughter that I raised mostly by myself and love so much.
The reason that I mention this is because, even with losing my daughter, I am free. Free of the regging, redoing the Bridge, redoing courses, free to own a stable home, free form random SO knocking on my door, free to talk to whomever I choose.
Someone told me many years ago, that if your speak out you will feel so much better. I found out that this is true. You will feel a freedom that you thought you would get with Scientology.
Most of the people that I have met in Scientology had really great intentions on helping others, their city, their country, etc when they got into Scientology.
Mosey has never been in Scientology and she has the courage to stand up to DM and his looney warriors and Attorneys. She is putting all the OT’s and the trained Auditors that are in hiding to SHAME!
Please consider applying what you say you believe in, STAND UP, give your name, tell your Org what you really think, call Flag ask them why DM is in so many lawsuits, tell your spouse, your kids and your employer all about Marty’s Blog, Debbie Cook, Mike Rinder, Claire and Marc Headley, Laura Decrezino. Do it today, get your shoulder behind this wheel that is turning faster every day! Help all of us that have been disconnected from, followed by PI’s, investigated and declared Supressive. Show DM how OT’s can stand up and get that wheel to plow under the real SP! Please help! We are almost there.
Well you see, its all “just a game” we are playing. Its all just another set of illusions/delusions. The “real” existence is beyond it and above it, so when you damage anything in the construct you really are not doing any harm — its just more of the crazy and aberrated game called the MEST universe, a game designed to reduce a magnificent theta being to a pathetic co-dependent rider on a MEST body, animated by your own horribly reduced horsepower. The only TRUE harm is trapping someone into believing that the game is all there is or that it is anything other than a game or preventing that which would release anyone from such a trap and rehabilitate them back to their true magnificence.
It’s built into the “ethics system” and the creed – “Never fear to hurt another in a just cause!” “Greatest good for greatest number of of dynamics”
“The creed’s opening is “WE of the Church believe!” Collectivism personified! – And I bought it all. Literally and figuratively!
That policy was written a few months before I joined the Sea Org. I was on course at CCLA when it was written.
I’ve been trying to imagine what would have happened IF I had read it back then as an HQS student? (of course I didn’t read it then OR at any time later. I don’t remember ever seeing this HCOPL — possibly it was a confidential PL or for GO only).
I probably would have somehow figured out why it made sense. Justified its existence.
Just as some continue to do now — stating it was intended for GOOD reasons — not to be used as dm has for BAD reasons.
BUT — reading it today all I can do is shake my head and wonder how can this be ever justified. To go after the person the perceived instigator loves and cherishes.
This goes against everything that is good and holy.
I’m happy that Marty is there to protect Mosey from being pursued by hunters running her to ground.
I’m appalled and hope everyone who reads these words from LRH is as well and starts to WTFU.
Mosey has the truth on her side. May she stand her ground and stand tall.
I can’t see how Miscavige ever thought that harassing your wife would EVER be a good idea? Too many skeletons DM…too many skeletons.
Go go go Marty!!! Those hideous bastards must be exposed for the criminals they are. Miscavage has to be brought to realise that he is WRONG. He has a warped reality and honestly, like Hitler, he believes he is doing the right thing. It’s scary.
This policy has no place in a church. This whole cussing conspiratorial persecution bullshit on the part of Ron and his followers is wrong. Flat out wrong.
Let us look at this:
Let’s say that the church itself is ONLY good. It does great deeds, all auditors are getting good results, people are winning in session and on course. Let’s say that there is no SO, no beaching, no overboarding. Let’s say that staff are there on a “help” basis – some volunteering, some paid a decent wage. Let’s say that the donations for services are voluntary and reasonable, and let’s say that the church actively supports real humanitarian efforts such as helping feed the poor, take care of the homeless, etc. And finally, let’s say that the church completely avoids all politics and involvement with attacking any other practices, such as Psychiatry. All the church and its members do is help people by delivering standard auditing and training, and helping in community events and food drives, and NOTHING else.
And, let’s say some government goon finds a reason to hate this, and then starts a campaign to sue us, or defame us in some way. Or some reporter gets all upset that we talk about past lives and that we do not engage in weekly worship sessions. And then writes articles against us.
In the case of a perfect church and an evil attacker, does the policy above make any sense at all to protect the church against the attacker? Is this policy ever a good one?
The answer is no. Never. It is NEVER a good idea to go after the reporter or government goon directly. Never.
Let us take an extreme: Militant Nazis come to round us up and send us to concentration camps, where we will be worked, then gassed and killed. Even then, is the policy above a good tactic? No. It is not.
The only legitimate course of action for the church EVER to take is to:
1. Deliver standard tech.
2. Use legal means as needed to protect our interests, or (better) ignore detractors completely.
3. In the case of real persecution, get out of Dodge, while supporting legal, peaceful ways to eliminate the Nazis or Taliban or whatever.
But, Ron didn’t do this. Instead, he pulled the above policy and others like it from his dark side, and his spawn have taken it down even darker roads than Ron (I am sure) ever intended. This is the one thing I never liked about Ron’s approach to who he considers are “bad hats.” The 10-foot high fence. Pink legs. The above. “Ruin them utterly.” “Discover their crimes.” It is wrong.
Mark and Mosey – I support you in this 100% Godspeed.
Thanks for adding to the equation. I switched one word in your write up. You can call me if it doesn’t stand out and for an explanation if you don’t agree with it (which I am pretty sure won’t be the case).
The overt doth speak loudly in accusation. There is no greater coward than David Miscavige. The mere fact that he has 15 thugs, and large thugs at that, standing with him when he wants to beat down on someone, is nothing more that street thuggery. I have met the thug face to face and he is nothing but a coward.
Thanks Marty for quoting from this piece of the Radical Church of
Scientology’s catechism and ‘religious’ dogma.
I frankly want to PUKE knowing that I supported this criminal organization in such a vanguard manner for some decades.
Justice will be served and ‘yes’ LRH’s Mea culpa to Sarge was spot on. Ron went to war with his ‘demons’ and he lost it.
Mosey, you will prevail.
I can imagine Mosey’s widening eyes and eyebrows raised 3 inches higher as she turns to Marty after reading this; “It’s always worse than you think, eh?”
Oops, sorry. I’m on the wrong blog.
Bob, it is an HCOPL. And to make matters worse, it’s also confidential — so a “hidden data line” to boot. Not one of Ron’s finest moments.
DMSTCC: “… after reading this … ”
Could you please clarify what THIS is referring to — my comment or Marty’s article or the LRH policy.
I was thinking more about the crime syndicate aspects of C of S. That got me thinking about what may be my fundamental concern: C of S behaves as a quasi-religious totalitarian organization.
Totalitarian groups have a lot in common with crime syndicates. That got me thinking about what is probably the world’s current worst totalitarian state: North Korea.
I came across this link about the 10 worst North Korean secrets: http://listverse.com/2013/08/26/10-brutal-north-korean-secrets/. I was struck by some of the resemblances to C of S totalitarianism:
NK Secret 10 = labor camps. In C of S, RPF.
NK Secret 9 = three generations of punishment (your crimes fall upon your children and grandchildren). Scientology — your crimes can get your children labeled PTS. You can also get ridiculed for things you supposedly did in a previous life (at INT for example, by COB).
NK Secreet 8 = insurance fraud. For Scientology, massive allegations of Narconon insurance fraud and other fiscal wrongdoing.
NK Secret 7 = arms dealing. As far as I know, Scientology does not do anything like this, but in the early days, per Ron’s son, Ron was involved with drug trafficking.
NK Secret 6 = electricity is controlled for the elite, who live in relative luxury. In Scientology, celebrities are treated specially while the “elite” SO members are deprived. Electricity is what keeps the lights on too. Good symbolism there. Just as NK keeps its citizens in the dark literally and metaphorically by cutting all communication with the outside world, Scientology does the same.
NK Secret 5 = people are divided into a three-caste system (loyal, wavering, and hostile). In Scientology, there is a three-caste system of loyal (in good standing with ethics), wavering (doubt formula), and treason / SP. In Scientology, there is another sort of three-caste system: Sea Org, non-Sea Org staff, and public (of which the lowest rung is raw meat if coming into Scientology, or wog if just out there in the wog world).
NK Secret 4 = using human feces as fertilizer. In Scientology, forcing RPFers to live on rice and beans or crap left over after everyone else has eaten, and to eat with hands from a container of slop.
NK Secret 3 = South Korean citizenship is almost always granted to those who flee. For Scientology, those who flee are welcomed back to a relatively free world, which is not the horror show that Scientology would claim exists. North Korea brainwashes its citizens the same way, claiming the rest of the world is in abject suffering and NK is best off.
NK Secret 2 = cannibalism in the face of massive starvation. In Scientology, a symbolic cannibalism of one’s life, fiscal resources, and other resources is conducted relentlessly. In the end, sans retirement, sans home, and sans results, SO members can be offloaded when they get too old, all their resources having long since having been cannibalized. Oh, wait — they may get $500 to get started again.
NK Secret 1 = torture prisons. Scientology has not only RPF but the RPFers RPF. And stuffing people in chain lockers and overboarding elderly who can’t swim with hands and feet tied (may not be practiced anymore). And sec checks. And gang sec checks. And threats to disclose confidential information culled from auditing folders. And on and on.
I’d also add crimes, since criminal organizations and totalitarian states consider the worst (only?) crimes to be those acts against the organization or state. So what kinds of things are crimes in NK?
— Criticizing the government, no matter how slightly = treason. Same with Scientology.
— Learning about other cultures is punishable by death. In Scientology, studying other practices or wisdom is an ethics violation.
And I love this quote from the link I put above: “Recent smuggling between the border of North Korea and China has allowed some people to get DVDs of Western movies—which are illegal. The North Korean National Security Agency has begun raiding villages in the north of the country by shutting off the electricity to a whole village then storming into houses and checking which DVDs are stuck in the DVD player.”
Remember Scientology’s net nannie that tried to control people’s information? Or the solid rule that you cannot tap into “entheta” (enturbulated theta, or loosely, facts that push on your comfort zone of faux reality).
So, it would seem pretty solid to characterize Scientology _organizations_ as totalitarian crime syndicates.
He’s certainly following Standard Admin Tech (at least the confidential variety). He’d also be following Standard Admin Tech if he heeded this little nugget:
“Periodic sweep-outs of antiquated and didactic laws (rather than general concepts and sub-purposes) MUST be undertaken by a being, organization, group or race or species.” – L. Ron Hubbard, “The Structure of Organization – What is Policy?” (HCO Policy Letter 13-Mar-1965).
Not that too many of us are holding our breaths as long as Miscavige, and anyone else like him, is calling the shots.
Several years ago when I withdrew my support from the RCS, whilst staying under the radar, I began reading your blog and it allowed me to learn and heal both physically and mentally. I am and will always be forever grateful to you for that. Lately I’ve been closely following Monique’s trial on Mike’s blog and on Tony O’s blog. I am so on Team Monique its not even sayable!
And I do know that she will not only win but win BIG in every important way. This is going to be huge. I am continuously flowing ARC and power to both of you. Peace, power, strength, understanding and love is coming from me continually to TEAM MONIQUE.
Yes, I understand at one time LRH and his church WAS being attacked. But we need to look at the dates. This 1972 was after many abuses of human rights carried on right with-in LRHs own walls and even by him at times. Later 82? when Flynn did go after the church (with the AMA and APA in cahoots with various government agencies) Flynn had the witnesses of the human rights abuses (X SO). LRH brought this in on himself and should not have been using these same tactics as used in the 50’s and early 60’s when he was under attack for the wrong reasons.
Maintain friendly relations should have been applied even with his crew. Seems for some reason he became a perfect tone of fear and no longer trusted his friends. This is sad that he could not use his own workable methods to do a danger formula and get honest and straight. It’s such a waste of some very workable technologies some persons will never experience as the names are so attached to bad news.
Speaking of ‘bad news’ this afternoon my partner let out a very loud yip as he was watching KCAL and tomorrows Inside Edition was being promoted. I got in there just in time to see a lovley picture of Mosey!
I was amazed at his excitement when he recognized Marty & Mosey – he has never been in Scientology and this got him going more then any foot ball game 🙂
KCAL Chan 9 3:30-4:00p Pacific time
“EVOLVED OPERATING PRINCIPLES”
Funny Rachel 🙂
All Miscavige has to do to show he is not a coward is appear voluntarily, much as you do every day Marty. Absent that simply act, it is more than apparent who is the coward.
Who is it that travels with an entourage of guards, in bomb proof cars, lives in hiding and seclusion and will only show his face in secured and guarded areas on private property he controls. The man is terrified, every day of his life.
What we are witnessing with Miscavige is the end of a spiral of lives pursuing a declining goal at or toward the end of the cycle. Despite the money he controls and the power he feel he wields, he is close to total failure in his pursuit. He is not winning by any measure and he knows it. This is a sad state for any being. Not that I am sympathetic, but he is really deep in the mud.
God help him when he has to confront what he has done and is doing, the mud is really deep in those parts.
The people that can save him, may not be willing.
Mine too! Love you Mosey
Wow Karen, That’s a wonderful announcement!
I’d love to tell about how at 6 months pregnant I was forced to sleep on cardboard on the floor of the complex boiler room, how one day I found my daughter outside dressed in only a black trash bag in 104 weather and on and on. But I stayed! How embarrassing! Someday ~
Yours is story I must tell. Please Email me.
✩ ♥ ❀ ♫ ☺ ❀. ♥ ♪ ☼ ♪ ☼ ♥♥ !!
DM will be deposed and will have to take the stand. (We’ll cheer and give standing ovation to that!) And he will hang himself on the stand because he won’t have teleprompters with his speech all written by Dan Sherman. He will have to answer up to the attorney’s questions. And yes he’ll probably lie, but he will destroy himself with his own energy. It will be a thing to behold. Marty and Mosey will have justice served and any money won for damages is more than deserved. Marty, you are one of the bravest people I know and so is Mosey and we are behind you 100%.
Ron tried to destroy Paulette Cooper. A women, a critic, a journalist. Where is the justification there?
Isn’t that what you did to others Marty.
Stand strong Marty and Mosey! The world is watching. The world is listening.
These doctrines have no justification. It turns my stomach to here even the hint of justifying Ron’s violent retribution. It’s disgusting and proof of cult brainwashing.
Hi Marty, give Monique my love for me.
Ok here goes…………. Ron suffered from paranoia. That paranoia became an institution, a para military institution.
Farsec is a planet where all Psyches come from
Ron desired to be electrocuted
Ron tried to destroy Paulette Cooper
The justifications I have heard for these is appalling.
There is a man, forgot his name, that knew Ron in the early days. He said something that made me think. He said Ron was good at confronting people but he did not experience them. Good at confronting people but not experiencing them. Think about that for a minute.
The false claims in DMSMH (modern science?)
Ron had mental problems. Maybe the psyches missed that withhold.
Sure DM is a nut. But that nut is applying standard tech. Standard tech to squash anyone critical of his Church. Standard tech written by a man suffering from paranoia. DM is seeking to ruin anyone just like Ron sought the distruction of Paulette Cooper.
Same thing, no difference. Well, maybe the only difference is who is the person. But it is the same standard tech.
I just can’t believe how anyone can justify this. Well, maybe I do know.
You have a witness to the organized crime syndicate Marty. I hope someone plays this for the courtroom:
“symbolic cannibalism?” You’re reaching. I understand that it can be fun making these comparisons, but Scientology is voluntary, North Korea is not. Big difference. Unlike NK, no one is holding a gun to their heads.
Extraordinarily well written. Bravo!
Cindy, my heart goes out to you from one loving mother to another! We have both lost our children to the horrific “Disconnection Policy”, but we will get them back!! Thanks to people like you and Mosey who stand up for what is right and expose the abuses that The Church of Scientology commits so others can see the real Truth. So others will never have to go through the heartbreak we are going through! We have our Freedom back and our children will soon join us!
Here is my latest video about my son Jeremy and I when the Scientology recruiters took him from me:
I’m living thru the same nonsense right now. Since Jan of this year my business has been sued 3 times, I have been held in jail for 60+ days with no convictions, been charged with 2 state jail felonies, and 5 class A mis. Had my music studio burnt down, house broken into and used for sex games, property stolen, identity of my ex fiancé and I both used to open accounts, take loans they attempted to buy a car even, had a 12k check stolen, 3 bank accounts closed with funds held back, and been harassed in my sleep by having parasites and drugs put in my face, arms, neck and back.
I’m in the moment trying to get the bank to release 10k to me and after 2 months not getting any support from the law enforcement agencies or insurance companies.
All of this plus much more Ill leave to your imagination.
All because I love a scientologist and I’m apparently on someone’s hate list 🙂
I have 2 degrees with Magna & summa cum lade accredits, started my business at 26 and employed 15 guys on Jan 12th of this year paying over 8k per week in payroll.
Today I am fighting foreclosure on my house, having to walk everywhere because all my cards are maxed and my credit is now mid 400’s and my truck was repo’d while I was in jail and needless to say my business is closed.
Stay strong brother. You can’t beat a winner…
Don’t let the negative vibrations of this silliness steal your peace.
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
The largest oak in the forest started as little nut that refused to give up its ground.
The greatest warriors defeat their enemies with out trying.
George W. Tilmon IV
Sent from my iPad
This is happening in Austin Texas
Sent from my iPad
Thinking positive thoughts for you, Mosey and Marty.
Cece, I’m glad you got me looking again at LRH’s actions that were so contrary to the basic principles of Scientology. I decided to review a chapter in Marty’s book *Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior* – the one titled “Preparing for War”. In that chapter, he wrote about being on the “Special Project” in the late 70’s, where for 6 months he studied “tens of thousands of pages of government and private agency/association documents.” Here are a few excerpted paragraphs, which describe the severity of the attacks on LRH and Scientology that went on relentlessly for decades – and it also gives a pretty plausible reason for what happened that caused the drastic change in LRH, which I duplicated better with this review:
“The documents told an incredible saga. And the story was told in the words of those conducting the crusade against Hubbard, not by Hubbard himself, nor by the church. Within weeks of the May 9 1950 publication of Dianetics: the Modern Science of Mental Health, vested pharmaceutical and medical interests declared war on L. Ron Hubbard…
“For the next 20 years, the AMA’s then-mighty Department of Investigation would take clandestine action against Hubbard and his organizations. Two successive heads of investigation for the AMA, Oliver Field (1950s) and Thomas Spinelli (1960s and 1970s) would work hand-in-glove with several governmental agencies to infiltrate Hubbard’s lectures and organizations…
“In the early 1960s, the FDA sent an agent to Hubbard’s home at St Hill Manor near East Grinstead, Sussex, England, posing as a reporter for one of America’s then-leading magazines, the Saturday Evening Post. The reporter spent days at St. Hill as Hubbard’s guest. The reporter gained Ron’s trust by swearing he would clear up some of the more outlandish accusations the mainstream media had used to sully his reputation over more than a decade. Documents taken from Food and Drug Administration (FDA) files by the GO included daily cables from this reporter/agent, reporting Hubbard’s every move and utterance to the FDA. To add insult to injury, the reporter wrote a damning indictment of Hubbard, which was published in the Post. According to a once-prominent Scientology promoter, Alan Walters, who was studying under Hubbard in England at the time, Hubbard’s disposition notably – and permanently – changed for the worse after this betrayal…
“That Hubbard had hit so close to the quick with his disclosures of what Dianetics and Scientology process had uncovered about the dirty work of the CIA and the very best psychiatrists [i.e. the PDH incidents he wrote about in SOS], it is a wonder he was not physically assassinated.
“Perhaps because of his high profile, and the growing ranks of dedicated religionists surrounding him, the APA, AMA, CIA, FBI and FDA and friendly media alliances would have to settle for old-fashioned (albeit of unprecedented intensity) character assassination. The documents demonstrated that the ranks of the massive government and private agencies arrayed against Hubbard and Scientology were swelled by other military and intelligence groups also involved in mind control experiments, including Naval Intelligence, Air Force Intelligence and Army Intelligence.
“The truth of Hubbard’s 1951 pronouncements about our government’s dirty activities would not be corroborated publicly until the mid to late seventies, with the advent of the Freedom of Information Act and the U.S. Congress Church Committee Hearings into unlawful CIA domestic intelligence operations. That Ron was twenty years ahead of his time in recognizing what the CIA and psychiatrists were up to was acknowledged by author Walter Bowart in one of the first popular exposures of that activity, Operation Mind Control (Dell, 1978). By then, Hubbard had been so discredited by establishment campaigns, and his church subjected to such intense fire for scandals of its [establishment’s] own manufacture, that nary a person would listen to the longer history, the bigger picture…
“Now Hubbard’s writings took on a markedly different tone than most of what he had written before. Rather than speak of turning the other cheek and dealing with establishment attacks with a healthy insouciance, Hubbard prepared the GO to do what the enemy was doing, but to do it better.”
🙂 When I read this I felt like letting out “a very loud yip” too!
Only by his own estimation.
Yes, Code of Honor #12 – I could never agree with that one. Or #2, Never withdraw allegiance once granted. How do you resolve just 2 and 12? Then you get into rationalizing and have to say, well, I granted allegiance to a concept, and this group – by my estimation – no longer upholds that concept, so I’m not really withdrawing my allegiance, I’m hurting the group in a just cause, and none of this has anything to do with justifying overts… oh dear.
After reading Mike’s blog today I realised I grew up in a fundamentalist environment. I’ll look into the psychology of fundamentalism some more, it may provide some of the answers I seek.
I like your reference to collectivism – yes, “we” are all “individuals”, united by Command Intention and “playing a game”.
Dissociation? Perhaps that is part of it.
When ethics is defined as having a long term survival concept, then this knee-jerk operations were a very un-ethical way of handling situations.
Attacking the source of antagonism is even a violation of standard PTS/SP tech and leads to an even bigger PTS situation.
Thanks for the context, Marty.
You’ll make it. You all.
I also think Miscaviges head on a * will help Scientologists to come into present time. It will need some time, but they can’t live in this parallel universe forever.
What a fallout this will be for DM. Think of all
the crimes the church MAAs and ethics officers
have committed with disconnection. Very fertile
area for suing the church as it is a form of
passive domestic or public harassment the way
it is done in Scientology.
Also, this thing about being coward, I would like
to see DM tackle an armed man (who just fired
his gun) or I would like to see DM attack one
of his staff without his whole entourage in the
vicinity. Wasn’t it DM’s brother who when they
were young always had to rescue little Davie
when he had taunted some kids into attacking
him. Of course standing by your wife is a very
foreign concept for DM. Actually, standing by
anyone who needs help… unless it would be
something in it for DM himself.
Thank you for the update. Its insane dealing with insanity
and one who is surposely the leader of The church of Scientology.
its a disgusting state of affairs .Theirs little or no understanding with a psycho in charge., who assume and thinks he rules ones life outside of his area/ in-depts and one personal life That answer is he does not and has no right to attempt or think he rules. He is an SP.
I think COB mostly follows tech to the letter but he’s also an insane psychopath that targets wrong people or the sane people around him or just anyone who tries to correct him. He is using LRH tech to protect himself, which bends the intent of LRH tech 180 degrees, which is called reverse Scientology…
People inside the cult are fooled or ignorant of this backwards vector, but outside the bubble the general public is actually more aware of his insanity and criminality than “what is Scientology”. Additionally, local, State and Federal governments are being served generous doses of evidence that he’s insane and criminal. So, it will not go on forever…both DM and Co$ days are numbered.
Definitions of Terrorism in the U.S. Code
18 U.S.C. § 2331 defines “international terrorism” and “domestic terrorism” for purposes of Chapter 113B of the Code, entitled “Terrorism”:
“International terrorism” means activities with the following three characteristics:
• Involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
• Appear to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
• Occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S., or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum.*
“Domestic terrorism” means activities with the following three characteristics:
• Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
• Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
• Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.
18 U.S.C. § 2332b defines the term “federal crime of terrorism” as an offense that:
• Is calculated to influence or affect the conduct of government by intimidation or coercion, or to retaliate against government conduct; and
• Is a violation of one of several listed statutes, including § 930(c) (relating to killing or attempted killing during an attack on a federal facility with a dangerous weapon); and § 1114 (relating to killing or attempted killing of officers and employees of the U.S.).
* FISA defines “international terrorism” in a nearly identical way, replacing “primarily” outside the U.S. with “totally” outside the U.S. 50 U.S.C. § 1801(c).
The video clip of Don Larson words describes DM very well.
I did myself encounter Don Larson. operations along with the
rest of them with him, and their Job was exactly as he has described
having been a victim.
The awful part was.when many attempts were made by myself to challenge any one of then, Questioning their methods based on who’s authority to do what your doing, Well one might as well have been waiting for
Death Row.if you didn’t buckle under. Utter horror.And those involved including ones out were guilty. And that’s called Scientology justice
some of which became auditors also , Total alter-is of ethical justice used in non other than suppressive justice.
Kudos to you Cindy. Your comment says it all and I could not agree more.
I too have a couple of kids in the cult. There will come a day …………….
You have my help at the wheel! He is going away soon.
Tell that story to the 12 year old recruits in the SO.
“It is strictly voluntary dear, you may leave to go see your parents anytime you wish.”
Who are you kidding Grasshopper?
Is theatening to destroy families: disconnect children from parents, loose all your friends, job “eternity’ not holding a gun to your head!
And what about the children born into this hell. Were they given a choice!
Maybe the analogy is not the same quantitatively, but there are some very similar qualities.
Tom can coach him from his experience in “A Few Good Men.” Now that is an oxymoron for sure.
Should have said “A Few CSMFDBHBMF”.
“Good at confronting people but not experiencing them.
Brian, maybe you should experience Mark there for a sec. Or at least take a deep breath … and re-read his post.
You and Monique have SO much support, Marty! And it is growing every day. Between Monique and Laura DeCrescenzo, the horrors of the organization will never again be able to hide from the eyes of the world.
Let the cockroaches begin scurrying!
Brian you are correct BUT there was a time when Ron could and did ‘experiance people’. If not, there is no way he ever could have come up with some of the procedures that do work a high percentage of times AND accomplish everlasting spirtual evolvement due mostly I suppose by the less baggage one needs to look through and carry around 🙂
I’m not sure when he ‘lost it’. Marty’s books help with understanding – have you read his last one?
Marty, Tress is obviously an OSA Bot Troll. Why do you let him/her comment on this blog?
Great comment Coop, although I almost cringe to ask what “CSMFDBHBMF” stands for… (maybe I should adopt, “don’t ask; don’t tell…”)
Yes Tom Cruise can coach Davie for his time on the stand, And Davie, not even being in the time stream called present time, can proudly stand up and shout, “You want the truth?! You can’t handle the truth!” and then look into the camera for his close up. And all the press he’ll get he’ll interpret it as adoration and interest and attention all on him and him alone, and he will go to jail with a huge smile on his face knowing that he had his close up and he was adored and he has “millions who listen to me.”
The actions against Cooper were atrocious, however where is the justification for the extensive government and private agencies attacks on Hubbard, dianetics, and scientology that were happening from the beginning?
You seem to be giving all that a “pass”. As though it was perfectly OK for them to do that.
Valkov, as regards the points you made about both Paulette Cooper and the attacks on Hubbard, Dianetics, and Scientology – in Marty’s book *Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior*, he describes the treatment of various GO victims, including Cooper and the similarly horrendous treatment of the Mayor of Clearwater at the time the Fort Harrison Hotel was purchased. However, he goes on to explain that there was a bit more to it:
“These are only two of the hundreds of people who were targeted for similar treatment, all meticulously documented in the files that had just recently been made public. The documents raised my hair. Had they been alone in a vacuum, I might have bolted from the Sea Org right then and there, in the summer of 1981. But there were other fruits of investigation that made matters seem not so black and white. The GO had compiled pretty convincing dossiers on a vast US government and private agency conspiracy to destroy L. Ron Hubbard and Dianetics and Scientology.
“They had also obtained documents that indicated Paulette Cooper was a long-standing operative of the American Medical Association, part of its three-decade mission to discredit Hubbard and take down Scientology. The GO also had uncovered documentation that [Clearwater Mayor] Cazares, for all his heroic lone-ranger publicity, had been a numbered FBI informant, possibly run in to disrupt church operations.” (Chapter Thirteen: COINTELPRO)
I did the book but need to reread it, as I have forgotten some of the details. I have no doubt about the overall conspiratorial attacks on LRH; I do have doubts about what the appropriate responses may have been. Of course I do not know where Cooper herself was actually coming from. Just as we do not know where any particular Sea Org staffer who is still in is coming from. Marty found his way out of the bubble but he was a believer at one time. I see Cooper as possibly being “collateral damage” while believing she was on the right side of things. I guess I think sometimes it’s a matter of whose propaganda does a person believe. Was she a dupe, or did she believe in what she was doing? Doctor, after all, were supposed to be “good guys”. Did she have any close relatives who were MDs? I would look for such connections. I’m not willing to commit myself one way or the other on the little I know. In contrast to Operation Snow White, which I totally applaud to this day. I do know from my own experience and my family’s, those were dirty times. So, OK, you’ve convinced me I don’t really know.
I also might reread Omar V. Garrison’s books “Playing dirty: The secret war against beliefs”, and “The Hidden Story of SCIENTOLOGY”. It’s been many years since I read those.
What the heck does Paulette’s being a woman have to do with it? Winnie Mandela was responsible and promoted the “necktie parties” perpetrated in South Africa. Those were heinous atrocities.
I’ve been busy for a few days and just read this post.
Marty a coward? …Marty has been front and center confronting everything that has been thrown at him.
Sociopaths are also notorious for indiscriminately and mindlessly attacking “wrong targets”. So, some of the stuff thrown at “Marty” was actually thrown at his lovely wife. Mosey has had to confront this stuff too and has done so with great courage, front and center.
And where has Mi$cavige been? The twit has been hiding behind the skirts of “squirrel busters”, private detectives, money, lawyers, and lies.
He shits bricks at the thought of testifying under oath in a court of law.
So, WHO is a coward?
“So, OK, you’ve convinced me I don’t really know.”
I didn’t mean to do that – but I feel very much the same!
My comment was intended to support both points you made – and maybe to supplement them. But now you’ve convinced ME, even more, that I don’t really know – I never thought to “ask” what was behind Paulette Cooper’s actions even further back. Good thinking, Val!
You and Mosie have my support 100%!! I applaud your courage and persistence. Sending you both love and light and many prayers for success in your battle against this evil cult.
Plus, please include the correct punctuation mark at the end of your question, for the purpose of literal understanding.
Thanks for being so nice about it! As I said, for all I know Paulette really was a long-time amoral paid shill for the AMA, dedicated to torpedoing LRH and Dianetics and Scientology. Or just someone who got into the wrong line of work trying to survive. Money does talk. Clearly she was not a friend, and portrayed a one-sided story.
You two have my entire support. David Miscavidge openly describes HIMSELF in his statements. Thank you for the whole array of information. By identifying the lies and hidden operation principles, YOU are helping to eliminate and disintegrate the persistence. Gratefully yours, JFG
Ref: Axioms of Scientology ↓
• Axiom 32: Anything which is not directly observed tends to persist.
• Axiom 33: Any as-isness which is altered by not-isness (by force) tends to persist.
• Axiom 34: Any isness, when altered by force, tends to persist.
• Axiom 40: Any problem, to be a problem, must contain a lie. If it were truth, it would unmock. An “unsolvable problem” would have the greatest persistence. It would also contain the greatest number of altered facts. To make a problem, one must introduce alter-isness.
Axiom 41: That into which alter-isness is introduced becomes a problem.
The Greatest Horrible Trick
“The greatest horrible trick that you could pull on any individual would convince him that he goes through all of this just once and he never has another chance. …
The Dawn of Immortality lectures (from a flyer with no other date/source) flyer copyright 2002 CSCCI
Oh what a wounderfully done sad but truthfull video Lori. Our kids will all come back to home someday ~ keep yer chin up. I’m In for the long haul (or maybe not so long) too 🙂
Hubbard is the author of the Fair Game Law, and the Fair Game mentality and philosophy dates back to 1951 with the book Science of Survival. It was re-emphasized again in 1955 in the Manual on Dissemination of Material, and again in the 1959 HCO Manual on Justice, and then in a large number of other Hubbard writings through the 1960s, with Fair Game Tech reaching its final state of refinement in the 1970s.
According to Hubbard, somebody was always after him, trying to destroy him and Scientology. Even before 1950, according to Hubbard, the Russian KGB was after him and even stole the unpublished manuscript Excalibur.
In a 1951 letter to the FBI, Hubbard reported his wife Sara as a Communist. In another letter to the FBI, from 1955, Hubbard told of how the Russian Communists wanted him to come to Russia and work for them at “very high fees.”
In 1969, in a confidential issue, Hubbard told of the Russian covert operation, in 1950 and 1951, to destroy Dianetics, citing Sara again, and giving her real name which was “Sara Komkovadamanov.”
It turns out that his 2nd wife was a Russian secret agent. Yup.
And if that wasn’t enough, Sara, in 1972, wrote a letter to author Paulette Cooper, a letter which a Scientology spy copied and which ended up in a Scientology file.
Of course, Paulette Cooper had to be destroyed also, since she too was trying to destroy Scientology.
Omar Garrison was working for Scientology when he wrote that, and he later regretted his association with Scientology.
If it hadn’t been for Operation Snow White it’s likely that much of Hubbard’s confidential Fair Game Tech would never have been exposed to public view.
There would never have been any FBI search warrants issued in 1977.
The search warrants revealed Hubbard writings that were important to fully understanding Hubbard’s method of operation and his mental state, and to fully understanding Scientology.
Hi Martin, my sense is that this was always the way in scientology. The disconnection policy came into existence in order to endure that members wouldn’t be exposed to alternative views of scientology.
There were lots of men who knew Ron in the early days. I knew some of them. Everyone I knew who actually met Ron loved him. Despite his faults. Now, as for me, I “met” Ron though his works. I listened to hundreds of hours of lectures, read millions of words in his written works. I drilled the routines, audited people, and was audited myself. I experienced the best and the worst of Scientology. You can chide me about how screwed up Ron was, but all you are really telling me is that you don’t know fuck-all.
I don’t have any first hand knowledge, but it seems that counter-attacking cost MSH and the rest of us the COS. There’s probably something to be learned from it.
Yes to not being a sucker. But no counter-attacking. The point -the way I see it- is not to harm the attacker, but to not invite/allow any attacks inside you.
That’s the kind of broad perspective I try to aim for – looking at it from all sides. It’s good to have your “voice” here, Valkov!
Grasshopper, what a cogent post!
It seems to me that when people put a lot of emphasis on LRH’s outpoints, they usually have not truly experienced Scientology – most particularly, the training and experience in application. Only when they have done so can they snatch the pebble from the Master’s hand – and go out on their own. 😉
“According to Hubbard, somebody was always after him, trying to destroy him and Scientology.”
According to public records, that was true – in spades – for at least three decades. This is all delineated in Marty’s book *Memoirs* – including a description of the point at which LRH decided there was no choice but to fight fire with fire. Have you read Marty’s book?
My thoughts exactly.
It’s good practice to help the rest of us learn to spot comments written by David Miscarriage! This blog can also be a drill …
HB is Hollywood Boulevard. The rest is as you suspected…..
Remember that when the Miscarriage speaks it is always out of the right side of his mouth. The truth comes out of the left side so is almost never used. In fact I don’t think he can talk out of the left side anymore….
Try it Davey. Say something that is true and use the left side of your mouth… try saying “It’s a great day!” Oh sorry, that would be a lie for you so obviously it would come out the right side……..again. Oh well…
Maybe he was criminal, maybe he was being sought after for fraud, tax evasions. Making medical claims to cure which were unproven lies..
Where is the great cosmic cabal to destroy Scientology now? Did they just up and say I give up? We lost? No mas? Fini?
The evil folks from Farsec don’t know what the heck these crazy Scientologists are about. It is my opinion that the mental health community missed Ron’s withold.
Let me ask you this: if you were applying for a job interview, would you include in it the phrase ,” Oh by the way, I am not psychotic”
In the album My Philosophy narrated by Yvonne Jensch Ron says of his military discharge records (paraphrase) “this officer has no neurotic or psychotic tendencies whatsoever”. Why would Ron include those words if he was not trying to head of at the pass actual records of his mental imbalance that other records say he had. The PR series is expert at convincing you of the need to create a track record. Ron was expert at creating a track record to imbellish or hide.
The only group and philosophy adept at destroying Scientology is Scientology itself and the doctrines that gave rise to a paramilitary organization that sought to destroy critics and thus extremely bad PR.
Justifications for these atricities and evils are plain brainwashing and ignorance or brick wall denial of the truth. Flat out!
Public record says many things about Ron. I guess we choose the one that fits and support our views. When I read what was done to Paulette Cooper, my views were set in stone. And it was Ron himself that orchestrated that womens destruction.
If you see nothing wrong with that then it will be impossible to see eye to eye. It is almost impossible to argue faith with someone in the face of evidence and reason.
The SO needs to be abolished. However, let’s not kid ourselves: Scientology has nothing on North Korea.
And the point remains: Every Scientologist is one because they want to be – or their parents want them to be, and they are too young to make up their mind. Every underage SO member was allowed to be in the SO because their parents let them. It is important to know this because people who have decided to be Scientologists can also decide not to be members of the church. If you care that Scientologists “wake up” to the crimes the church is committing, then I do not recommend making stupid comparisons to North Korea or Nazi Germany. The realty is what it is – no need to embellish it.
Scientology is going to exist whether you like it or not. I suggest the best way to make this as pleasant for you as possible is to let the truth speak for itself and let Scientologists strip out the negative – as many have done outside the church.
Pretty incredible that he was able to keep Scientology from being completely wiped out. Talk about David and Goliath!
From Wikipedia on Hoeryong Concentration Camp in North Korea:
“Former guard Ahn Myong-chol describes the conditions in the camp as harsh and life-threatening. He recalls the shock he felt upon his first arrival at the camp, where he likened the prisoners to walking skeletons, dwarfs, and cripples in rags. Ahn estimates that about 30% of the prisoners have deformities, such as torn off ears, smashed eyes, crooked noses, and faces covered with cuts and scars resulting from beatings and other mistreatment. Around 2,000 prisoners he says have missing limbs, but even prisoners who need crutches to walk must still work. Prisoners get 180 g (6.3 oz) of corn per meal (two times a day), with almost no vegetables and no meat. The only meat in their diets is from rats, snakes or frogs that they catch. Ahn estimates that 1,500–2,000 people die of malnutrition there every year, mostly children. Despite these deaths, the inmate population remains constant, suggesting that around 1,500–2,000 new inmates arrive each year. Children get only very basic education. From six years on they get work assigned, such as picking vegetables, peeling corn or drying rice, but they receive very little food, only 180 g (6.3 oz) in total per day. Therefore many children die before the age of ten years. Old people have to work to their death. Seriously ill prisoners are quarantined, abandoned, and left to die.”
There is no comparison.
LOL Coop about how Der Midget speaks out of the right side of his mouth cuz the left side is for the truth. good one.
Your question is a non confront of the issue. Instead of confronting the atrocity for deflect by pointing out trivia.
Sorry, “you deflect” is what I meant.
Have a good day my dear Mr. V 🙂
Brian, you wrote: “If you see nothing wrong with that then it will be impossible to see eye to eye. It is almost impossible to argue faith with someone in the face of evidence and reason.”
Do you realize that you are subtly putting words in my mouth and that what you wrote amounts to innuendo? Not okay.
You also wrote: “Public record says many things about Ron. I guess we choose the one that fits and support our views.”
That is evading the specific point I was making – that, per hard evidence in public records, there was a huge campaign to destroy LRH and Scientology that went on for over 3 decades. And it was based on the fact that LRH had exposed the widespread, vicious PDH activities of psychiatrists and government agencies. I’ll quote again part of an excerpt from Marty’s book that I posted earlier:
“The documents told an incredible saga. And the story was told in the words of those conducting the crusade against Hubbard, not by Hubbard himself, nor by the church.”
The rest of the excerpt is here: https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/10/10/organized-crime-and-standing-ones-ground/#comment-279850
Jane, he literally does speak out of the right side of his mouth! As you can see in this video. Maybe he has an engramic command that distorts the body – not to mention the mind.
Brian, you did not answer my question about why you make an issue of Paulette Cooper is female. Would what was done to her be somehow less offensive in your eyes, if it was done to a man rather than a woman? That is the impression you give. If it is so “trivial”, why did you bring it up?
I am not deflecting anything. I am criticizing some of your statements as being prejudiced and lacking logic. You have as much as admitted that, by saying your opinion of LRH is “set in stone”.
You have evaded responding to any particular point I have brought up, except to dismiss them as “trivial” or somehow irrelevant, and go back to demonizing LRH. Do you really think readers don’t see through this?
Yes. And neither would the government’s extensive documentation of the various orchestrated and on-going attacks against LRH and dianetics/scientology have come to light either.
Garrison also had access to a wealth of material while working on his books, so it is not like those books are full of misinformation, either. They do have their slant but are based on many facts.
This is precisely the type of think Scientology embeds that I find so pernicious. What does sex have to do with it? She’s a thetan, so their intimidation is non-sexist? It is sick.
Brian, “maybe, maybe, maybe”……. You so much as admit you are speculating, then you assert a bunch of ad hom about how any contrary opinion about LRH is “Justifications for these atricities and evils are plain brainwashing and ignorance or brick wall denial of the truth. Flat out!”
It is almost comical that you post these rants on a blog run by a man who daily uses skills he learned from LRH, to help others. And by all reports is possibly one of the best auditors in the world. Yet you post these absolutely negative rants about LRH without even acknowledging the possibility that LRH also made some exceptionally positive contributions to the lives of many people. You should do as well.
No, that’s wasn’t my point at all, and I think you know that. NO. She’s a person, just as any man is a person. Is it therefore OK, or less wrong, to intimidate a man, than it is to intimidate a woman? If that’s what you think, you are displaying a double standard yourself. “Real men don’t get intimidated”, eh? I think men and women should have equal protection under the law. Do you really think the sex of an abused person should make any difference to the sentence passed on the abuser? I don’t.
However, I will lay off of Brian.
I think Hubbard, Miscavige, and Scientologists have zero compunction about intimidating and terrorizing women; and as per Counter Attack Tactics, in fact, countenance it. I believe it is cowardly and of the character of those who engage in organized crime.
Marty, it seems like a real slight to women that you apparently think it is more cowardly to intimidate and terrorize them than to do so to men. The implication is that you think women are weaker or lesser, and the context isn’t at all about physical strength. I can understand how enormously upset you must be about what happened to Mosey, but from what I have gathered she is the perfect example of a woman who is much tougher than most – meaning, most men and women both. Do you really think gender has anything to do with the subject?
Also, the unqualified statement you made about “Scientologists” was quite the generality. You surprised me on this comment!
Marty, you would know better than I about that, as I was never exposed to those issues or that aspect of scientology. I was never interested and never worked in any of the organizations.
However, you did not actually answer my question at all.
Does “Counter Attack Tactics” then, in your view, pertain specifically just to women? Is it actually written to attack women alone? Is it not about attacking any person who is felt to be attacking Scientology, even MEN who do so, not just WOMEN who do so?
I believe lots of MEN have been attacked and harmed by those tactics. Is that somehow not as bad as attacking WOMEN?
Or, to turn it around, Does Hubbard, Miscavige, and Scientologists have any compunction about attacking MEN, as well as WOMEN?
Isn’t an atrocity an atrocity, regardless of whether it is committed against a man or a woman?
Yes. She’s in the league of Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Stanton, and other women who changed the course of history. And Marty is there to support her efforts. T me they represent the 2nd Dynamic fighting back against the suppression of it that has existed particularly in the Sea Org.
Per Pamela Meyer that lip gesture is a sign of contempt for others. Dim has a high regard for self and is contemptuous of every one else. http://www.ted.com/talks/pamela_meyer_how_to_spot_a_liar.html
Dennis Stephens extract from http://www.freezoneamerica.org/ivy/24/more50s.html
Later, much later, we began to understand why Ron Hubbard did this. Around 1960, it became very obvious that there was a paranoid streak in his personality. When first I knew Ron, in 1952 and ’53, the paranoia was not there. From 1954-55, his paranoia became more marked, manifesting in the area of trust.
I had arguments with Ron in his office when he was going on about the psychiatrists. Remember, I was a senior executive in HASI London, knew him personally, and felt that I could offer advice. I would say: “Ron, just leave the psychiatrists alone. Don’t bother them. If we don’t bother them, they won’t bother us.” He would say: “No, Dennis. Those damn psychiatrists are out to get us. They are upsetting our commlines. So we got to get them first.”
The “attacks” are 90% Scientology propaganda.
I’ve read those documents – boxes of them, pre-internet – and what they mostly show is Hubbard’s and Scientology’s crazed machinations.
Have you read Hubbard’s letters to the FBI from the early and mid 1950s? Letters that earned him an “appears mental” label?
Do you agree with Hubbard that his 2nd wife was a Russian spy named Sara Komkovadamanov?
Omar’s involvement with Scientology was the low point in his life, an involvement which he later regretted. As with so many other well intentioned people who became involved with Scientology, he was lied to, and he eventually compromised his own integrity. (He was under contract and worked for Scientology.) At the end, he recovered, and regained his integrity, and worked with Gerry Armstrong to expose Hubbard’s fraud and abuses. Unfortunately old age and poor health overtook him before he could do much more.
Everything he wrote while under contract with Scientology Inc. was approved prior to publication, or edited and modified, or it wasn’t published.
Sadly, his books, written while under the control of Scientology Inc., are not reliable sources of information for that reason.
Have you listened to Hubbard’s accounts of who was after him? It’s mostly fiction.
Hubbard was no more “under attack” than any other tax evading snake oil salesman.
And, no, I’m not saying that there are no valid ideas in Scientology, I think there are, but let’s face it, Hubbard was a con man and a tax cheat.
I highly recommend the book A Brief History of Everything by Ken Wilber. Its opening segment introduces (or re-introduces to Scientologists) the idea of evolution – not Darwinian, but the inevitable change that occurs in this universe. He uses the subject of the evolution of the role of women in societies. It might open your eyes to the fact that there are differences between men and women.
I highly recommend the book A Brief History of Everything by Ken Wilber. Its opening segment introduces (or re-introduces to Scientologists) the idea of evolution – not Darwinian, but the inevitable change that occurs in this universe. He uses the subject of the evolution of the role of women in societies. It might open your eyes to the fact that there are differences between men and women
Wow, thanks. I thought I was running into your outmoded cultural belief, but I have a hunch you have run into my modern cultural belief!
Since you need to deflect and not experience the issues we are discussing I will tell you a story that is my view on my role as a man in relation to women.
I was leaving a bank after depositing some money. Still in the bank, I was headed towards two large glass double doors. As I was looking through the glass I see a very old women slowly aproaching the door from the parking lot. She was bent down an shuffling her feet: she was moving like a snail.
I rushed to the door to open it for her and stood there, for what seemed like forever as she moved so slow.
As she shuffled in the door she stopped. With great effort she twisted her bent body upward and towards me so I could see her face. I could not see her face because her body bent downwards.
She looks up at me, eyes boring into mine with a light that stirred me. Looking at me for a second she says, “well……. at least I know there is one gentleman left in the world.”
I almost started crying. My eyes teared up because in that one powerful statement, packed with meaning, this 90ish year old women was greatful that me, a man, honored her.
I realized that there is a dynamic between men and women that is precious, elegant. I realized that chilvarlry is a wanning virtue in our culture. I realized that there are some people that see chivalry as old school, discrimination not with the “new” way.
But I think you won’t get this Valkov. You will deflect and talk about how it was an old women, an old person that needed help. It was her age, nit gender that needed help. Becuase you are adept at deflecting an argument with issues not related to the argument. And have some anger issues imo. (that is ad hominem)
So yes, Valkov, we are all souls and sexless in the ultimate. But life as an experience is not.
My family of friends are lesbians, gay men, a few transsexuals and heteros. So obviously I am not closed to unfair gender issues.
That being said, you have succeeded in diverting the attention again with non response to the real issues. But it has succeeded in sparking my memory to that day I met a saint, whose power over my being was because she was a women.
I honor the difference. I don’t discriminate because of it.
And Valkov, there is so much scientific data, new brain data, neuroscience, that delineates the difference between men and women.
But in the world of moral relativity, and political correctness, ivy league theories and contemporary cultural wrong knowledge this neuroscience is quite bothersome to the ivy league scholarly theory that gender characteristics are imprinted by culture. Yes, some characteristics are cultural but nature Herself has engineered a vast diffrence. And this is scientific fact now. Gender differences are nature based, not culturally based.
It is a fascinating study if you don’t mind sacred cows being ground up through the extruder and made into burgers.
Marty, that is an interesting tangent but nonetheless a tangent. I am somewhat familiar with Wilbur but haven’t read that particular book, so thanks for the recommendation. I am quite familiar with the 2 definitions of evolution:
the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth.
synonyms: Darwinism, natural selection More
the gradual development of something, esp. from a simple to a more complex form.
“the forms of written languages undergo constant evolution”
synonyms: development, advancement, growth, rise, progress, expansion
The Darwinian one is new, a kind of redefinition of what the word was understood to mean for centuries.
As for men ans women, believe me, I know they are very different in many ways – I have been married for 45 years! “Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus” is a good book on the subject.
However I was not commenting on the differences between men and women, but on those who commit atrocities, and how we view them and how we judge any atrocities they commit. Men and women are human beings, and an atrocity committed against any human being, man or woman, remains an atrocity. If the acts that were committed against Paulette Cooper were committed against a male human being, would they somehow be less atrocious?
I think not. Morally, and under the law, an atrocity needs to be considered an atrocity, regardless of whether it was committed against a man or a woman.
In the Creed where it says “The souls of men have the rights of men”, I take “Men” to refer to human beings, to both men and women. If that is not its intent, then I reject that part of it.
Marty, here is a verse of a poem written by Jalaluddin Rumi, one of the greatest Sufi mystics ever, who wrote them in the 13th century, about 800 years ago. It is about “evolution”:
I have experienced seven hundred and seventy mounds.
I died from minerality and became vegetable;
And from vegetativeness I died and became animal.
I died from animality and became man.
Then why fear disappearance though death?
Next time I shall die
Bringing forth wings and feathers like angels;
After that soaring higher than angels-
What you cannot imagine, I shall be that.
The question that arises is, why in the world would “Scientologists” need to be introduced or “re-introduced” to the very concept of evolution propounded extensively by LRH?
By the way Marty, in my universe, I think of you as a Scientologist in the very best sense of the word – a “scientologist” as scientologists were intended to be in the beginning.
Yes I know you don’t call yourself a scientologist and that makes sense. Why piss into the wind?
I think this is quite relevant to this discussion on “human nature”, for those who are interested and have the patience to look into it. It is a post originally made by Maria on Geir’s blog.
The upshot of it is, Humans and chimpanzees have 99% the same DNA. Among mammals, these 2 species are also uniquely violent towards each other. The very similar “bonobo” species, virtually identical to chimps, have completely different social structures which are based on equality of the sexes in terms of social power sharing and co-creation of how they live. Here is part of one of Maria’s posts, and subsequent posts provide much expansion, and a book recommendation “Demonic Males” which is based on much recent research
This is fascinating information:
“Out of almost 5,000 mammal species in the world, there are only two in which males live with their relatives in social groups and occasionally make trips into neighboring territories to stalk, hunt and kill members of neighboring groups. Chimpanzees are one. Humans are the other. And we are so closely related that a blood transfusion from one species to the other will save a life, if the blood types match.”
Here is more:
“In a new book, Demonic Males (Houghton Mifflin), which Wrangham wrote with science writer Dale Peterson, he reveals how he found a glimmer of hope that humanity could reduce its violence and overcome its five-million-year rap sheet of murder and war. Wrangham bases his optimism on the discovery that bonobos create peaceful societies in which males and females share power–while the biologically similar chimpanzees live in patriarchal groups in which males regularly rape, beat, kill, and sometimes even drink the blood of their own kind.”
This part of the comment thread is here:
Thanks Brian. Good post.
All I can say is, you don’t know me. Not at all. This is likely not your fault, but part of the limitations of the internet blogging format. Go your way in peace. Hopefully you will not always need a foil with shortcomings like you see mine to be, to compare yourself so favorably against. I’m sure that ultimately, your heart is in the right place. “In His own image and likeness, created He him.” Or as LRH put it, “A person is basically good”.
wow, I see that now. Thanks for pointing it out. Maybe someone should tell him, “something can be done about it” regarding that. lol
B.Wbbb, you may be missing data. Please see my post here: https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/10/10/organized-crime-and-standing-ones-ground/#comment-279850
Martin, thanks for that quote. It goes along with several others’ observations too around that time period. Nevertheless, the other side of the coin is that through the means he took, LRH may in fact have saved Scientology from being wiped out. In his book “Memoirs…”, Marty made this observation based on the knowledge he had from his over 3 decades’ experience in top management. If LRH had not chosen to act as he did, he and Scientology both might have been completely squashed.
I don’t know if you saw Martin Foster’s post on this, but he added some illuminating data. Here’s his comment:
“Per Pamela Meyer that lip gesture is a sign of contempt for others. Dim has a high regard for self and is contemptuous of every one else. http://www.ted.com/talks/pamela_meyer_how_to_spot_a_liar.html “
Here is an example of the kind of double standard that does exist in much of society. it has to do with male on female violence including rape, and ways that society excuses males who do these things. This alone does make it seem like a proportionate response towards defending women from violence is needed. However it does not make violence towards men OK, either.
When Scientology became a religion, it became a collective, with the inbuilt seeds of destruction in all collectives. (We of the Church believe????)
It became a religion for one purpose only and that was to have protection under the first amendment. Otherwise practitioners *auditors) would have needed to register with Medical councils. The Sunday services we held were for PR purposes only. All of Scientology which addresses the individual is imo valid and useful. Those aspects which address the collective are suspect.
Step out of the dichotomies for a moment. Do youself a favor, take up the recommended book.
There may be some truth to that. I have read Marty’s latest Miraldi and his argument convinced me of certain things regarding agencies seeking to make trouble for him.
Ok, I concede to that. But it does not stop there. I believe that believers in Ron do stop there. As you say you honor a “see both sides” approach Miraldi, I suggest that there is more to investigate.
I listened to Larry Brennan’s interview. I will look for it and post for you. What he basically states is that DM’s behavior (albeit on steroids) was nutured by Ron. That the brutallity of DM’s approach was fostered by Ron.
That DM is only an anomally as far as degree of violence. That this young impressionable uneducated high school drop out was nutured by Ron to be violent. That Ron was funneling millions of dollars into secret accounts while Sea Org members were in poverty. That the violent slap down of the mission holders was orchestrated by Ron, that the corporate shill that is Scientology was created by Ron to hide himself from the law and rake in the cash.
Ron trained, nutured, validated and gave power to an ingnorant child high school drop out to violently reorganize his church to maximize profits and hide him from the Law.
Maximize profits, hide from the law by means of physical, emotional harm is how the mafia operates.
There are many reasons established organizations went after Scientology and Ron Miraldi. There are other sides. I will look for Larry’s (he changed his/her name) interview. Larry was integral to the restructuring of Scientology and got direct instructions from Ron. So he is not hearsay. I will post it for you Miraldi.
I am happy that you honor both sides Miraldi. My nit picking is not meant to counter anyones true realizations and wins from Scientology. But it is not the good parts that have arrived us all here. And it is a good unflinching look at the controversial parts that will bring healing. IMO
Check out this interview with a person who was very intimately connected to certain realities of Scientology corporate restructuring. This is the other side of the Ron was wronged by evil cabals.
[audio src="http://www.lermanet.com/audio/bren.mp3" /]
I came late on this chain, but I liked Brian’s story about the old woman he held the door for. As a woman I can say that I love it when a man holds a door for me. It makes me feel feminine and good. It makes me feel the difference between men and women, and I like that there is a difference. Sometimes I almost blush just from that one nice gesture of holding a door open for me. I hope chivalry is not dead and Brian is proof that it isn’t. It is just a nice courtesy, just like helping an old person with the task at hand is respect for the elderly. That is also appreciated by all the elderly people that I know of. And if I happen to be in a position and get there first and all, I hold doors for men sometimes and they seem to appreciate that courtesy too. Didn’t LRH say that manners were the oil in social machinery? He would be right about that.
Yes I saw that video and loved it. I also watch “Lie To Me” (get shows from past seasons from Netflix). I also see that curled up lip as contempt for whoever he is talking to. I don’t think there is anyone he doesn’t have contempt for, even his bromance brother, Tom Cruise. He just kisses his butt so that he can bask in the reflected glory.
“… the inbuilt seeds of destruction in all collectives. (We of the Church believe????)”
Thanks, Martin. I’m probably showing my ignorance but I guess you are using the word “collective” to mean a group that requires of its members certain fixed beliefs. However, can I assume that you agree with the principle of the dynamics and are in favor of the third dynamic, and some type of Scientology 3rd dynamic group? If so, I’m interested in how you would describe it.
I think you said it better than anybody – the “curled up lip as contempt”. Over time, his continuous contempt has set the mouth in that expression. Spot on, Jane!
“And it is a good unflinching look at the controversial parts that will bring healing.”
Brian, your constant repetition of the controversial parts may still be needed for some people, on some blogs or elsewhere, but I don’t think that includes this particular blog. Here, these things are pretty well known and you come across as beating a dead horse. JMO.
Miraldi, did you listen to that interview? There are some perspectives unique to Larry’s experience as Marty’s are from his book. Somewhere between Ron was wronged by an evil cabal and Ron made it all up, lies the truth. IMO
I wonder where that phrase came from: beating a dead horse? Time to google.
Thank you Miraldi for your input. I am glad the good parts of Scientology work so well for you. That is wonderful.
You can simply pass on my posts and consider them for others then. I was glad that Laura thanked me for posting the “Ron thinks families are bad groups and troublesome for thetans.” In that regard Miraldi her gratitude revealed to me that she was not bothered by me.
Life is so infinitely varied, is it not? 😉
Question: would you prefer that I don’t respond to your posts if I have a Brian view? I will respect your wishes.
Off to find where beating dead horses come from. What a gruesome phrase!
OK, Amazon Prime is on it, and I should have the book Thursday. I am looking forward to it! Will it make me less of a cranky old man? That would be OK. I have rummaged around on Wilbur’s website, and read excerpts of his works in other books. I particularly liked his integration of the stages of psychological development in which he melded the Western and Eastern “stages” into a unified scale going from the Western stages of individual development up through the Eastern concepts which he termed “transpersonal psychology”. It made sense. The West neglected the higher levels, and the East neglected the lower, “individual” levels, and he made a good case for why each culture did what they did. And that was I believe in his first book, so I can imagine he grew a lot from there and really deepened his understandings of things.
Thanks for intervening, I needed that as I was going off on tangents and derailing threads.
Are you Brian Culkin?
Brian, thanks for the nice reply. And it’s perfectly fine with me for you to respond to my posts. It gives me a chance to point out that you’re WRONG. 🙂
Just for you, I listened to most of the interview. But truthfully, I’ve heard and read enough of the outpoints that I don’t need more and more details. You aren’t the worst critic, and not the basic on the chain, but this is how I see many critics – they can’t get enough of the gory details and want to make sure no one misses any of it. And some of them repeat the same stuff over and over. It seems like they relish wallowing in it, and this I haven’t figured out.
True, you and other critics often get favorable responses to what you post, but IMO there is a lot of literal interpretation of Ron’s words – including how you interpreted that tape about the family. To me, you didn’t duplicate the larger frame of reference he was referring to. I can’t help but wonder if critics start out trying to find outpoints – just looking for them, and thus reading into things what isn’t really there. Give that an honest look and see if there is truth to it for you. I’ve had to do something similar in that I tend to have an impulse to see how Ron or Scientology were right after all, but I’ve improved.
One interesting thing in that interview was that the guy said Ron ran the GO, but according to Marty in his last book, he didn’t. This is one reason why I take all these stories with a grain of salt – and don’t spend too much time on them. I read Marty’s books because I know he’s a reliable source and I can’t say I know that about many others. And as you put it, “Somewhere between Ron was wronged by an evil cabal and Ron made it all up, lies the truth.” Well said. 😉
You know, all who are taking what Marildi says about my book as true, please read it for yourself. In my view she is taking increasing degrees of license with it.
Sorry if I misduplicated. I’ll stick to quotes.
Marty, from your comment I got that I misinterpreted what you wrote, but here are some quotes from your book which gave me the idea that LRH wasn’t running the GO:
p. 144: “It [the GO] was set up by Mary Sue to act autonomously, separate from Hubbard and the Sea Org – so that they could concentrate completely on the task of managing the organizations and the delivery of Scientology itself.”
p. 155: “Hubbard approved Miscavige’s plan and expanded on the theme. Writing that he had not the slightest inkling of what Mary Sue and her Aides had been up to with their intelligence ops…”
p. 168: “…I was briefed in detail by Miscavige, Starkey and Gamboa as follows: Ron Hubbard considered Mary Sue Hubbard to be a traitor of the lowest order. She had, for the past fifteen years, carefully concealed from her husband the creation and operation of an international crime syndicate called the GO…”
Still seeing but individual trees where forests lie. Demand upon literalness is the bane of Scientology.
Still seeing but individual trees where forests lie. Demand upon literalness is the bane of Scientology.
It’s hard to understand what you’re saying sometimes. And I don’t think it’s because I’m incapable of seeing the forest, or of getting a conceptual understanding. I am. But the words used to communicate should have enough clarity for them to be understandable. I didn’t feel that was the case with any of your replies to my comments in this thread.
And that last phrase is your entire take on the man? Tax cheats abound all over the world. Nothing unique or unusual about that. As to the “con”, there are so many different variables in his work, and so very many differing opinions, your phrase is a meaningless opinion and generality.
There is unanimity in Judaism? Really? I recall a very old saying, “If you want seven opinions on anything, have three Jews discuss them.” LOL
I’m personally not into constant recriminations. It’s not good for my own spiritual health and growth.
Ron does seem to have forgotten one of the cornerstones of what what he supposedly championed: “Communication is the Universal solvent; it solves all things.” Deliberately making up lies about someone else and using those to destroy them is not by any measure, “communication”.
Another one he forgot: “That which you resist, you become.” Ain’t THAT the truth!!!
And remember that printed banner which hung on the wall in *every* ethics office? “You are totally responsible for the condition you are in.” It turned out that it never applied to the people at the top, Ron least of all.
I use a lot of what I learned in my daily life. I really do not care if it was Ron’s or stolen from someone else. Scn is where I learned it. And maybe his basic genius was assembling good information from many places and making it available? Damned if I know for sure, one way or the other.
You cannot “bring” someone to your realization. And especially that the person is WRONG. It cannot, as scio does, enforce understanding, comprehension or ethics. That has to be worked out by the individual. (Hubbard told us that “ethics is self imposed” while “morals are other imposed.” Then he immediately created an ethics system which contradicted what he’d said!)
My thoughts precisely. Once that billion year contract is signed, NOTHING is voluntary.
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