The Scientology Inquisition

David Miscavige and his Scientology Inc. have of late  taken to waving the flags of the American Nazi Party and the  Westboro Baptist Church.   They are spending huge sums in order to convince some that their own activity belongs in the same category as those august institutions.  They don’t even try to argue that their conduct is not outrageous or unconscionable in a civilized society. Instead, they claim it is their Constitutional right to practice retribution, terrorism and ruination upon those who refuse to relinquish their own First Amendment rights to speak and worship as they choose.

Regardless of their individual failures or successes in this expensive positioning endeavor, there is legal precedent that protects you should you ever be targeted by the Scientology Inquisition.  It is the decision of the California Court of Appeals in the original Wollersheim vs. Church of Scientology of California case.

The following is a reprint of the particular section of that decision that deals with Scientology heretics and their treatment at the hands of the Scientology Inquisition:

B. Even Assuming the Retributive Conduct Sometimes Called “Fair Game” Is a Core Practice of Scientology It Does Not Qualify for Constitutional Protection

As we have seen, not every religious expression is worthy of constitutional protection. To illustrate, centuries ago the inquisition was one of the core religious practices of the Christian religion in Europe. This religious practice involved torture and execution of heretics and miscreants. (See generally Peters, Inquisition (1988); Lea, The Inquisition of the Middle Ages (1961).) Yet should any church seek to resurrect the inquisition in this country under a claim of free religious expression, can anyone doubt the constitutional authority of an American government to halt the torture and executions? And can anyone seriously question the right of the victims of our hypothetical modern day inquisition to sue their tormentors for any injuries – physical or psychological – they sustained?

We do not mean to suggest Scientology’s retributive program as described in the evidence of this case represented a full-scale modern day “inquisition.” Nevertheless, there are some parallels in purpose and effect. “Fair game” like the “inquisition” targeted “heretics” who threatened the dogma and institutional integrity of the mother church. Once “proven” to be a “heretic,” an individual was to be neutralized. In medieval times neutralization often meant incarceration, torture, and death. (Peters, Inquisition, supra, pp. 57, 65-67, 87, 92-94, 98, 117-118, 133-134; Lea, The Inquisition of the Middle Ages, supra, pp. 181, 193-202, 232-236, 250-264, 828-829.) As described in the evidence at this trial the “fair game” policy neutralized the “heretic” by stripping this person of his or her economic, political and psychological power. (See, e.g., *889 Allard v. Church of Scientology (1976) 58 Cal.App.3d 439, 444 [129 Cal.Rptr. 797] [former church member falsely accused by Church of grand theft as part of “fair game” policy, subjecting member to arrest and imprisonment].)

In the instant case, at least, the prime focus of the “fair game” campaign was against the “heretic” Wollersheim’s economic interests. Substantial evidence supports the inference Scientology set out to ruin Wollersheim’s photography enterprise. Scientologists who worked in the business were instructed to resign immediately. Scientologists who were customers were told to stop placing orders with the business. Most significantly, those who owed money for previous orders were instructed to renege on their payments. Although these payments actually were going to a factor not Wollersheim, the effect was to deprive Wollersheim of the line of credit he needed to continue in business.

Appellant argues these “fair game” practices are protected religious expression. They cite to a recent Ninth Circuit case upholding the constitutional right of the Jehovah’s Witness Church and its members to “shun” heretics from that religion even though the heretics suffer emotional injury as a result. ( Paul v. Watchtower Bible & Tract Soc. of New York, supra, 819 F.2d 875.) In this case a former Jehovah’s Witness sued the church and certain church leaders for injuries she claimed to have suffered when the church ordered all other church members to “shun” her. In the Jehovah Witness religion, “shunning” means church members are prohibited from having any contact whatsoever with the former member. They are not to greet them or conduct any business with them or socialize with them in any manner. Thus, there was a clear connection between the religious practice of “shunning” and Ms. Paul’s emotional injuries. Nonetheless, the trial court dismissed her case. The Ninth Circuit affirmed in an opinion which expressly held “shunning” is a constitutionally protected religious practice. “[T]he defendants, … possess an affirmative defense of privilege – a defense that permits them to engage in the practice of shunning pursuant to their religious beliefs without incurring tort liability.” ( Id. at p. 879.)

We first note another appellate court has taken the opposite view on the constitutionality of “shunning.” ( Bear v. Reformed Mennonite Church (1975) 462 Pa. 330 [341 A.2d 105].) In this case the Pennsylvania Supreme Court confronted a situation similar to Paul v. Watchtower Bible & Tract Soc. of New York. The plaintiff was a former member of the Mennonite Church. He was excommunicated for criticizing the church. Church leaders ordered that all members must “shun” the plaintiff. As a result, both his business and family collapsed. The appellate court reversed the trial court’s dismissal of the action, holding: “In our opinion, the complaint, … raises issues that the ‘shunning’ practice of appellee church and the conduct of the *890 individuals may be an excessive interference within areas of ‘paramount state concern,’ i.e., the maintenance of marriage and family relationship, alienation of affection, and the tortious interference with a business relationship, which the courts of this Commonwealth may have authority to regulate, even in light of the ‘Establishment’ and ‘Free Exercise’ clauses of the First Amendment.” ( Bear v. Reformed Mennonite Church, supra, 341 A.2d at p. 107, italics in original.)

We observe the California Supreme Court has cited with apparent approval the viewpoint on “shunning” expressed in Bear v. Mennonite Church, supra, rather than the one adopted in Paul v. Watchtower Bible & Tract Soc. of New York, supra. (See Molko v. Holy Spirit Assn., supra, 46 Cal.3d 1092, 1114.) But even were Paul v. Watchtower Bible & Tract Soc. of New York the law of this jurisdiction it would not support a constitutional shield for Scientology’s retribution program. In the instant case Scientology went far beyond the social “shunning” of its heretic, Wollersheim. Substantial evidence supports the conclusion Scientology leaders made the deliberate decision to ruin Wollersheim economically and possibly psychologically. Unlike the plaintiff in Paul v. Watchtower Bible & Tract Soc. of New York, Wollersheim did not suffer his economic harm as an unintended byproduct of his former religionists’ practice of refusing to socialize with him any more. Instead he was bankrupted by a campaign his former religionists carefully designed with the specific intent it bankrupt him. Nor was this campaign limited to means which are arguably legal such as refusing to continue working at Wollersheim’s business or to purchase his services or products. Instead the campaign featured a concerted practice of refusing to honor legal obligations Scientologists owed Wollersheim for services and products they already had purchased.

If the Biblical commandment to render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and to render unto God what is God’s has any meaning in the modern day it is here. Nothing in Paul v. Watchtower Bible & Tract Soc. of New York or any other case we have been able to locate even implies a religion is entitled to constitutional protection for a campaign deliberately designed to financially ruin anyone – whether a member or nonmember of that religion. Nor have we found any cases suggesting the free exercise clause can justify a refusal to honor financial obligations the state considers binding and legally enforceable. One can only imagine the utter chaos that could overtake our economy if people who owed money to others were entitled to assert a freedom of religion defense to repayment of those debts. It is not unlikely the courts would soon be flooded with debtors who claimed their religion prohibited them from paying money they owed to others.

We are not certain a deliberate campaign to financially ruin a former member or the dishonoring of debts owed that member qualify as “religious *891 practices” of Scientology. But if they do, we have no problem concluding the state has a compelling secular interest in discouraging these practices. (See pp. 884-886, supra.) Accordingly, we hold the freedom of religion guaranties of the United States and California Constitutions do not immunize these practices from civil liability for any injuries they cause to “targets” such as Wollersheim.

For further parallels between Miscavige’s Scientology Inc. and the perpetrators of the original Grand Inquisition, see The Scientology Reformation

194 responses to “The Scientology Inquisition

  1. I find the practice of ‘shunning’ to be morally repugnant, especially when exercised by an entire group against an individual, but I can see that it is somewhat of an extension of a person’s right not to associate with someone they choose to not associate with, and I support that right. However, what Scientology has been doing to the Rathbuns is not even remotely the same thing. Rather than avoiding the Rathbuns, the Church and their operatives have been going to great effort and expense to keep tabs on their every movement and to employ in-your-face personal harassment. It is the exact opposite of avoidance, and it is beyond repugnant. It is maliciously evil.

  2. The three Abramic faiths have a historical crime. They perpetrated this crime with the destruction of the choice of religious, spiritual, symbolic and procedural written words and practices.

    The word heresy; while the conventional meaning is “not Roman Catholic” is actually more telling of the tyranny of mind they were perpetrating through forced regimentation.

    Heresy is from the Greek. It means “to choose.”

    A heretic then, is one who has retained the right to choose. Constantine chose fo Christians, for years to come, what is excepted theology and what is not.

    Thus the philosophers had adepts had to go underground and bury the Nag Hamadi Library and Dead Sea Scrolls.

    This is America damn it. Can’t Scientology be sued for freedom of religion suppression.

    Get rid of of this “only way punish the evil heretic bullshit!

  3. Elizabeth Hamre

    By reading your post I have gained further understanding of the church and their position regarding spirituality.
    While one is locked into conditions what the members of the group believes in and lives by and imposes the same on others that path do not lead to or occur on The Path of Spiritual Enlightenment and definitely not lead to freedom and self-determination.

  4. I read the case histories and I am glad the end decision is better than I had thought it would at the beginning.

    In evaluating the practice of shunning, as having some validity, in some cases, I think such practice is a sin or overt.

    It is in violation of the maxims:

    Love thy neighbor as they self,

    and do unto others as you would have them do unto you,

    and it’s counterpart;

    do not do unto others that which you would not have them do unto you.

    That latter principle is the bases of all good civil law and legal decisions in the world .

    When an act is done that is in violation of that principle, is why good justice systems were first made, and where the justice system has jurisdiction and when the justice system steps in, to install system and order to (to prevent disorder) protect public safety.

    The co$’ fair game policy is in conflict with it’s “Granting Beingness” principle or policy, and it’s codes of ethics and conducts.

    It is my viewpoint that any shunning policy in any religion is unlawful and all damages caused by shunning policy, or any other policy, must be paid for in full by the perpetrator.

    That is on one hand,

    but on the other hand, the practices of the co$ are of orders of magnitude more sinister, more diabolical, more deceitful, more evil, more covert, more dangerous, more ulterior than any person not familiar with their practices, can imagine.

    The point that has to be kept in mind at all times is:

    Nothing, absolutely a co$ member says is what it appears to be, or is free of ulterior motives.

    When dealing with the co$, at anytime, but especially in legal matters, conventional legal thinking and practices (conventional justice systems) have to be set aside, ( suspended) for something (a system of justice) that is of a power and an ability or magnitude that is fully fluent in the knowledge of the co$’ ulterior ways.

    And the POV that has to be taken when dealing with the co$, is that the co$ is guilty on all counts until proven different, by all reasonable and even non reasonable doubt.


  5. Thank you Mike for fighting the good fight,.

    President Obama, if anyone from your staff or any White House staff or anyone in Congress, or anyone who has any pull, is reading this blog, puh-leaze do something about this monstrosity of a religion.

    Mi$cientology has exhibited not only outrageous, unconscionable behaviour but also illegal. Why haven’t they been investigated for child abuse, kidnapping, tax evasion and murder? If this organization was comprised of a totally different ethnicity I wonder if the US Government would have already taken some kind action.

    There are so many people and institutions in this country brought to court for no good reason, here we have one which is chock full of every bit of horrific behavior in the book. Some so awful I would never type them.

    The United States has basically done nothing but let David Miscavige get away with murder. It is time to change this equation. Are you afraid?


  6. It seems Hubbard’s own “Way to Happiness” which is campaigned all over the world would be enough to contradict this type of behavior. No wonder people get confused as to what Scientology is.

  7. Their defence is religious freedom of expression? That is unquestionably laughable.

    DM is guilty of the free expression and practice of religion. The Independent’s are being warred upon with a war chest of Scientology dollars. Actually that started with Ron. But DM is like the Caligula of religious suppression.

    Religious suppression in America:WTF?????

  8. There’s an old maxim that well describes how these freedoms work in modern society: “Your right to swing your fist ends at my jaw”.

  9. Well done Marty!

    Religious shunning, or in Hubbardology terms (thanks Brian) “psych warfare”, is an admission of personal spiritual bankruptcy.

    The true believers, the faithful, are in fact spiritual liars, deeply afraid and incapable of experiencing Reality by their own direct efforts.

    The religionists must cower, by necessity, behind their prophets, gurus and carefully constructed belief systems, as they do not dare to take a peek behind the curtains.

    Their cowardly antics are just the age old admission that they have personally failed to ascertain for themselves what all this eternal mystery is about. They are still in their spiritual infancy.

    It has been said before that monotheistic, totalitarian religions are the perfect medium for the charlatan, the greedy and the sociopath, who see this fundamental human weakness as an opportunity for their Messianic idiocies.

    The only long lasting cure for this religious mania, is direct personal experience with the Eternal.

    Failing that, a healthy dose of civil and criminal laws against these religious morons work best.

  10. The Polytheist’s, the Hindus, never went to war to preach an only way. Yet they were crushed by three religions.

    Moses crushed the pagan Canonites, Muhammad kiled, as documented by Will Durant: 80 million Hindus.

    And Rome has it’s history. For all their One God is the only way propaganda as as supperior way, the ploytheists at least allowed you your own approach to that Transcendent Benevolence.

    Many approaches, one goal. That is what the desert religions got wrong. The tolerance in India is such that all approaches are embraced.

    When was the last time you heard of the Buddhist cutting off heads for the great Guatama? Or boiling them in oil for Krishna?

    We are tired of self righteous religions that claim a superior God, superior teachings and rejection and demonization fir not buying into your power hungry religio-political conceptual land grab.

    There is unity in diversity. A cultural richeness from many approaches.

    We are tired of it. Tired of it.

  11. “terrorism and ruination upon those who refuse to relinquish their own First Amendment rights to speak and worship as they choose”

    12:08 LRH: “Oh no, a suppressive person isn’t critical. A suppressive person is a person who denies the right of others.”

    This is something I tried to explain to an MAA. All attempts were in vain. I was then attacked for having seen the interview rather than having given an unknown (because of rejection) datum from LRH himself.
    The MAA rejected the datum, because he was not allowed to see it. Therefore he denied the existence of this datum. And this is why he was right and I was wrong. MODERN INQUISITION! No evidence needed.
    I am still upset about this.

  12. Great post Marty, this sheds some light. I guess David thought since Texas was a different state, he could start fresh there and put California behind him. Even though he lives in it. He really is a master at illusion, I have to give him credit for that.

    He has turned the group, the entire tribe, into a group of buildings and corporate uniformed soldiers. Turned the Church into a House of Cards. Turned the spiritually curious into beggars and slaves and “obedient members”.

    There are no more “customers”. He made them all vanish by simply changing their name to “member”. And he by that action, managed to exclude everyone else on the planet from being a part of it.

    He has shape shifted people groups tribes and civilizations.

    And just like California, he is going to live in it. He will be among st us for a long time coming. Co existing with us. And just like today, we will know him by his actions.

  13. lol, must be Freudian slip. I meant thank you MARTY.

  14. Here’s what I like about what Marty’s been doing lately.

    1. With this blog post and many others, Marty is empowering others by providing the information and the tools people need to protect themselves from the Cult of Scientology’s Fair Game operations.

    2. He and Mosey are also directly attacking the Cult’s ability to apply Fair Game through the lawsuit that Mosey has brought in Texas. With every delay that the Church throws into that suit, each delay acts to prolong the heat and increased scrutiny from media, courts, and law enforcement on Scientology.

    As this two part strategy continues, it becomes more and more dangerous for Scientology to internally coerce abortions, to defraud Scientologists, to destroy Scientology families, and to enslave and to falsely imprison its staff.

    This two-part approach also directly suppresses Scientology’s ability to damage the people it has traditionally targeted for harm outside the Cult.

    It has lowered the potential danger for everyone: Ex-Scientologists are more able to speak out about their experiences in Scientology. Critics are more able to expose Scientology’s lies and abuse. And Independent Scientologists are more able to practice Scientology outside a suppressive cult environment.

    By applying both parts of this strategy, Scientology is de-fanged.

    What’s even better is that, as more time drags on, the Poodle Boy Captain McSlappy will create more opportunities for law enforcement to find ways to prosecute him.

    That’s what I like about what Marty’s been doing.


  15. Whatever happened to “Ethics are reason”, rationality. Current management goes against everything Scientology stood for when I first learned it in the 60s. Some may not agree with the old Scientology, but this is not that. Even I will state that the ‘old Scn’ needed corrections and improvements, but this is just nuts.

  16. The Church of Scientology’s “religious protective measures” are just overts & witholds that high paid lawyers have been hired by the church to twist, invalidate and pretend something is meant by in the “book of justice”. It sometimes has never worked for the church in the past and with the internet around it never will. What surprises me a little is that the Church of Scientology is much worse than I ever really actually imagined they could be, and that is the truth! 🙂

  17. This has been a religious experience just to watch the dynamics unfold and the conditions change.

    Marty has done nothing but turn the other cheek in the face of this domestic terrorism and suppression.

    He has every right to be himself and share his views and knowledge. He has done so without apologies while facing David’s soldiers without flinching.

    As David or someone at Int published false reports everywhere that Marty was DEAD, is not Marty’s duty to be an an accomplice to false reports.

    Turning the other cheek is a phrase in Christian doctrine that refers to responding to an aggressor without violence.

    From the Sermon on the Mount in the New Testament. In the Gospel of Matthew, an alternative for “an eye for an eye” is given by Jesus:

    38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
    39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

    And as David has pressed forward with terrorism, suppression, attacks, efforts to harm attack and suppress, to no avail other than paving his way to being a registered criminal now with a restraining order issued on him for domestic terrorism.

    He is the “leader” of the Church and he can’t even bypass normal habits and routines in a danger condition.

    He would not be in Texas in legal trouble if he did not CREATE it.

    He is NOT in trouble for being a Church or a Scientologist or for ANY religious reasons!

    He is in trouble for engaging in domestic terrorism and domestic abuse yet he is using Church resources to cover himself and ALTER ISING this into a “religious dispute”.

    This ISN’T about the Church of Scientology and Monique is not or never has been a member of that group!

    LISTEN! She is NOT asking for a refund people! She is not suing because they killed someone in her family at the Int Base! She is not complaining that they abused her in the Sea Org or any Org or Mission.

    This is about DOMESTIC TERRORISM. David Miscavige and DOMESTIC TERRORISM.

    Let’s keep it real.

  18. Agreed Mark

  19. This is just another sleight of hand that Davis is publishing everywhere that Monique’s dispute with him is a RELIGIOUS dispute.

    She hasn’t made one remark about his religion!

    He is doing this so he can avail himself of the Church’s resources for defense funds. Just like he used the Church’s resources to dabble in domestic terrorism!

    Under any other condition he would be fired from his job as Chairman of the Board of ANY corporation.

    Why hasn’t he been?

    This in itself is enough evidence for anyone to know HE is calling all of the shots! There is nobody to fire him! He has it set up that way! ANOTHER sleight of hand!

  20. Alanzo,
    Very well put.
    The Co$ has been forced to make changes although they of course didn’t have the guts to say “Thank you Marty for pointing these weak points out to us”. If it had not been for Marty these ‘internal reforms’ would simply not have taken place.
    There is a lot to be grateful for due to Marty’s actions.

  21. I hope this appeal decision is helpful in Mosey’s case against the church, Miscavige et al, as well as the Garcia case.

  22. Very interesting legal arguments. I can see that a religion and its members may have a legal right to cut connections (“shun”) as stupid as that is, since it makes the religion into a cult with shunning as a control mechanism to keep people in.

    But the ability to shun the excommunicated is a far cry different from harassing, tormenting, stalking, spying on, trying to ruin utterly, and otherwise acting out against the excommunicated person and his or her family and associates.

    Just think if every religion in the world were given the right to so harass all former members, their families, friends, business, and associates? The state has a compelling interest in reining in a religion like Scientology from its adverse and overt actions (not its freedom of practice or speech) rather than sacrifice the health and welfare of the general society.

    Let’s take Islam as an example. Some Muslims proclaim with great venom that any depiction of Muhammed be banned and that any denigration of Muhammed be met with death of the perpetrator. That’s right in the same ballpark as Scientology’s fair game practice, and both religions need to be reined in as they have overstepped their constitutional right to unfettered belief and practice into a realm of overt retaliation against non-believers, apostates, and even non-conforming believers.

    A church can even speak out against someone. But I would caution any church to (a) avoid speaking lies — that would be defamation, or (b) divulging confidential information gained via priest-penitent relationship. Here is an article on the legal and ethical issues around violation of the priest-penitent privilege:

    Some of what Dawkins discusses in this YouTube video has relevance to the discussion, even though Scientology does not seem to believe in a supreme being, per se:

  23. He sends his attorneys in there create out lists and wrong items for people.

    This is about David and domestic abuse and domestic terrorism.

    What do his attorneys do?

    “It’s about religion”
    “It’s about religious rights.”
    “It’s about trademarks.”
    “It’s about Marty”.
    “It’s about business.”
    etc etc. etc.

    Wrong items being DRILLED down on the Judge and Monique and her attorneys so they get spun in on out lists! Wrong whys. Wrong whos. Wrong items.

    This is how David uses Scientology technology to win. False reports, wrong items, wrong whys wrong whos wrong targets causing people to list and have out lists.. Bam bam bam! In an attempt to key people in so bad they can’t think straight anymore or become confused or their vision gets blurred.

    Black magic. He uses what he has learned, to harm attack and suppress. To bleed false reports and dabble in injustice and domestic terrorism. He INTENTIONALLY creates WRONG ITEMS and OUT LISTS for people and runs it on them! You can see it for yourself!

  24. People say, “Scientologists are fucked up, They think they know more than anyone else. One of them was mean to me. He didn’t act like a clear. He ripped me off. ” Blah Blah Blah Blah.

    What happens is that there are people who get involved with this, and they use the resources, books knowledge people staff money power WHATEVER, to FORWARD some purpose line they were on LONG before they ever heard of Scientology! Long before the word was coined!

    And then you get someone with a purpose of their own to make nothing out of everybody, and they USE these fucked up people to knock all Scientologists in the dirt.

    Either way it is the PEOPLE that create this misery and injustice. They just justify their hate by attacking ALL “Scientologists” and they justify their crimes in the name of Scientology under the umbrella of some policy that served them on their purpose line.

    There are plenty of people who do not use Scientology to harm attack suppress and dominate others. There are plenty of people who have used whatever is going on in this theater in a constructive way to make a better world and a better life.

    Just because David is down in Texas with nothing but an agenda to key people in and set them up for losses, does not reflect on anyone but HIM.
    And he benefits when people go out list and blame it on “Scientology” or “Scientologists”. He HIDES within that kind of injustice. The more he can stir it up the more people go after wrong targets, and more injustice results.

    He is truly a merchant of chaos.

  25. +1

  26. Notice

    Louis Theroux making a Scientology documentary.

    “Open call to any #Scientologists out there. I would love to speak to you for a documentary I am working on. About Scientology.”

    Note. He said Scientologists. Not ANTI Scientologists. Mark Bunker has that end covered.

    Of course, the only Scientologists that will able to reach out to him are the ones the Church has already thrown under the bus. Otherwise if you are in “good standing with David” you can not speak for yourself or about your life and religion. You must let an approved person from the Church do that for you.

    Well some of you all might want to help this fellow out. I think he is curious and now that there are so many Independents, you may want to speak your mind and let your voice be heard.

    It’s your life! Talk talk!

  27. Louis Theroux, currently doing a documentary on Scientology, did an excellent piece on the Westboro Baptist Church

  28. martyrathbun09

    You noted: “Just because David is down in Texas with nothing but an agenda to key people in and set them up for losses, does not reflect on anyone but HIM.” I don’t think that is completely accurate. After five years of attempting to let the truth be known, and experiencing hundreds of Scientologists – both corporate and independent – (and millions of their dollars in resources), attempting to suppress that truth and destroy its carrier – I look at things slightly differently.

  29. T.0.,

    DM fired?

    COBs in any legit organization are voted in and answer to someone.

    DM answers to no one, his only appointee is dead.

    And his organization is filled with sheeple.

    e.i. People who do not have their own minds.

    People who do not have minds of their own, are the kinds that get usurped into cults and similar organizations, even political orgs and offices.

    They think with their master’s thoughts.

    Their masters could be anyone, anything, spirits, TV, media.

    Their minds are for the taking.


    Schizotypal Personality Disorder Symptoms

    By Psych Central Staff

    Schizotypal personality disorder is characterized by someone who has  great difficulty in establishing and maintaining close relationships with others. A person with schizotypal personality disorder may have extreme discomfort with such relationships, and therefore have less of a capacity for them.
    Someone with this disorder usually has cognitive or perceptual distortions as well as eccentricities in their everyday behavior.

    Individuals with Schizotypal Personality Disorder often have ideas of reference (e.g., they have incorrect interpretations of casual incidents and external events as having a particular and unusual meaning specifically for the person).

    People with this disorder may be unusually superstitious or preoccupied with paranormal phenomena that are outside the norms of their subculture.

    Individuals with Schizotypal Personality Disorder often seek treatment for the associated symptoms of anxiety, depression, or other dysphoric affects rather than for the personality disorder features per se.

    Symptoms of Schizotypal Personality Disorder

    Schizotypal personality disorder is characterized by a pattern of social and interpersonal deficits, deficient in life skills, marked by acute discomfort with, and reduced capacity for, close relationships as well as by cognitive or perceptual distortions and eccentricities of behavior, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

    Ideas of reference (including delusions of reference)
    Odd beliefs or magical thinking that influences behavior and is consistent with subcultural norms (e.g., superstitiousness, belief in clairvoyance, telepathy, or “sixth sense”; in children and adolescents, bizarre fantasies or preoccupations)

    These types often get into cults, and activities like shamanism and witchcraft.

    Unusual perceptual experiences, including bodily illusions
    Odd thinking and speech (e.g., vague, circumstantial, metaphorical, over elaborate, or stereotyped)

    Suspiciousness or paranoid ideation
    Inappropriate or constricted affect

    Behavior or appearance that is odd, eccentric, or peculiar
    Lack of close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives , and in some cases does not even have good relationships with relatives. Sometimes reclusive.

    Excessive social anxiety that does not diminish with familiarity and tends to be associated with paranoid fears rather than negative judgments about self.

    May have avolition, which is the inability to set goals and or carry them out to completion.

    In more extreme cases, is unemployable.

    Has poor life handling skills, and poor problem solving skills.

    Often prefers to sit in the house and watch TV, when there are other more important things to be done.

    Often only does other things when it is essential that those other things are essential to be done.

    Has unsound judgement, or impaired judgment and low level of responsibility.

    Poor or limited ability to discern the difference between right and wrong.
    Often sees wrong as right, and right as wrong.

    Inability or poor ability to determine best course of action when faced with life’s problems.

    Is usually the type of child who is shunned or bullied in school or victimized in school.

    Often has inferiority complexes or other types of complexes, even superiority complex.

    Often seen as an outcast, or misfit.

    These accumulated disorders compound to make life more difficult or challenging to the individual.

    Often sees wrong as right, and right as wrong.

    Inability or poor ability to determine best course of action when faced with life’s problems.

    The above are generalities. Different people with SPD will have or could have all or some of the above symptoms and often have other disorders unique or specific to them, that have to be determined on an individual bases.

    These accumulated disorders compound to make life more difficult or challenging to the individual.

    Like any malady , SPD occurs from mild to severe.

  30. I’ve been fortunate. I’m not anywhere near dms radar nor am I important in the scheme of things — therefore he and his gang of thugs leave me alone.

    Occasionally I get startled when after cross country moves and numerous PO Box changes — “they” find me. But it’s pretty benign — just an offensive IAS magazine greeting me.

    NOT a bevel of lunatics in a row boat. OR a plethora of extremely high paid attorneys who REALLY give the name — attorney a bad one. OR dirty tricks at my work place.

    Yes — I’ve been lucky. So much so that I’ve been able to pursue my own path — often tweaked and sometimes directed by Marty’s posts and his own road of discovery.

    I’ve grown somewhat weary of the scientologists who continue to cling to a philosophy which perhaps NOT at its core beginning but certainly very early on became EXCLUSIVE (albeit saying the opposite) – that became cruel and vindictive (albeit saying the opposite) …

    To me — until/unless enough people formerly involved with scientology FULLY STEP BACK and say — good grief. Was THAT me?

    And start to embrace a new mind-set — we will continue to have dm as Lucifer while he is actually only one of the devils.

    This article about Larry Wollersheim was a poignant reminder for me. I personally knew Larry when he was a new Sea Org member — freshly from his candle making hippie-to-young-entrepreneur-in-Milwaukee-days to his arrival at Celebrity Center. (sometime around 1972)

    And I continued to know Larry somewhat after he left staff. And yet, when he decided to sue scientology for attempting and accomplishing the destruction of his business, I was one of the “OTs” in the court room sent in by the GO to ensure we could quietly “OT” the judge to submission. (think delusional Jedi mind tricks)

    Didn’t happen as we know.

    I marched against Larry — I was so incensed that he would even DARE to go against “MY CHURCH”

    It’s shameful really. And if Larry reads this blog may I say I’m sorry. You weren’t perfect but then neither am/was I.

    Until we STOP THINKING of each other as unimportant – as people who are separate from us – as people to place OVER there, while we stand so self-righteously OVER HERE …

    Then this planet will continue to be hell on earth for many. We are believe it or not ALL IN THIS TOGETHER …

    Marty and Mosey continue to be excellent examples of genuine people who grow constantly – who protect themselves AND their family including their adorable baby boy AND who aren’t afraid of their shadows and thus are willing to step outside in the sunshine.



  31. It is L Ron Hubbard who taught Scientologists – including David Miscavige – to think and act the way they do with regard to Scientology.

    Spotting Source is absolutely essential if you want to make any lasting change.


  32. Expecting wisdom from the ignorant is quite a loosing proposition. Frustration: the only outcome.

  33. It is almost impossible to believe this is a group that should be based on ARC and KRC…

  34. That is on it’s own a nice sentiment. You can see that he is very enthousiastic when he made that statement. If you would follow a benign path of understanding of what an Supressive Person is than it is a good measure.

  35. Oracle,

    You seem to be oblivious to the facts, that this religious inquisition was MANDATED by Hubbard, and that the Church of Scientology was organized and built for psych warfare, by Hubbard, against ANY perceived opponents, whether they were actually suppressive or not.

    The fact that Hubbard MANDATED total allegiance to him and his so called “salvation” religious scheme as a matter of OPERATIONAL Church policy makes this insanity very hard to undo.

    To pretend that Scientologists, whether independent, dependent or co-dependent are somehow exempted from Hubbard’s heavy handed religious indoctrination is NOT supported by the observable facts.

    To assign all responsibility for the blatant irrationality of Scientology and Scientologists to David Miscavige ALONE is absurd.

    To suggest that all Scientologists are somehow evil or criminal is equally absurd. I think that is pretty obvious that most Scientologists, particularly auditors, are very well intentioned people.

    No, instead we should actually grow up to the OBSERVABLE facts, that Scientologists, like any other people on earth before, have been subjected to heavy religious indoctrination, and that they are having a very tough time disentangling themselves from the lies that Hubbard embedded into his Cult.

    That view above, leaves room for helping Scientologists in need, and does not absolve anybody from responsibility for violating the civil rights of others.

  36. I once saw a bumper sticker that read “Dear God: Please save me from all your true believers.”

    Why are we humans so bent on turning off reason in favor of faith that flies in the face of all facts? So certain that we have the “right and only” way when human history and common sense argues otherwise?

  37. TO, There are a lot of enablers to DM’s actions. Its not just DM, and its not just because of LRH as the founder. There is plenty of blame to go around and as much as we seek clarity to place blame, I don’t think we can limit it. To me its a combination of haughtiness and fear which motivates so many to do or not do the right thing. And for folks like you its a combination of courage and strength to fight against it and try to wake up others. Others whose haughtiness, greed, fear and pride DM feeds on. I know I am not telling you anything. Just felt like weighing in.

  38. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    They are just applying this – and its the first lesson that is kearned -:

    The worll begins with TR0 (CONFRONT) and what is the definition of confront ?
    – meet (someone) face to face with hostile or argumentative intent: ‘300 policemen confronted an equal number of union supporters.
    – compel (someone) to face or consider something, especially by way of accusation: ‘Tricia confronted him with her suspicions’
    - (of a problem, difficulty, etc.) present itself to (someone) so that dealing with it cannot be avoided: ‘post-czarist Russia was confronted with a Ukrainian national movement’
    – (usually be confronted) appear or be placed in front of (someone) so as to unsettle or threaten: ‘we were confronted with pictures of moving skeletons’

    I couldn’t find any definition that doesn’t include a certain from of aggressivity !

    How sad !

  39. Thank you Marty for providing us with the correct information relevant to the situation.

    Your writing about: ” there is legal precedent that protects you should you ever be targeted by the Scientology Inquisition.”

    After reading the legal document I noticed that, during the Wollersheim case, the legal conclusions on that case very much do apply to the present situation. Just to note a few:

    “Freedom of belief is guaranteed. Freedom of action is not”
    “Fair game is INTENDED to punish” “Church’s CONDUCT manifestly is outrageous” ‘The actions exceed all bounds usually tolerated by a decent society”

    “Scientology is not constitutionally immunized from civil liability for its cumulative courses of CONDUCT to INTENTIONALLY inflict emotional injury”

    Legally the actions taken in the past, and in the now, are liable to justice. And that is the man in point, their conduct, their actions.

    So no matter how much DM and his minions try to twist the truth of their abuses and actions, we have now, in addition to the law, many others standing up to back you up and any other person that has suffered other abuses, so righteousness can reign.

    I hope others read the blog so they can see that legal rights exist against the Church’s conduct.

  40. Mary Rathernotsay

    Exactly, Alanzo! Exactly.

  41. Mary Rathernotsay

    The unbridled arrogance of the CoS under Miscavige leads them to make their own rules up as they go. They see no reason to pay attention to, much less follow the rules of Nations they operate in, including USA.

    ” One can only imagine the utter chaos that could overtake our economy if people who owed money to others were entitled to assert a freedom of religion defense to repayment of those debts. It is not unlikely the courts would soon be flooded with debtors who claimed their religion prohibited them from paying money they owed to others.”
    One example: How many persons would then claim that it is against their religious beliefs to pay taxes to the IRS? That’s a bandwagon that I don’t think our justice system wants people to start jumping onto.

  42. FOTF,

    I don’t think people “turn off” “reason”.

    I think the problem is that people really do not know how to reason and use the intellectual tools of critical thinking.

    It is a learned ability and skill.

    It is an education.

    And it depends where people are on their level of intellectual and spiritual evolution.

    Carl Sagan came up with a pretty good one:


  43. The only remark worth to admire for the sanity of it is Ytube clip
    by LRH Quote / Highest respect to him, no matter what else is said about him. RIP

  44. This is what the Church Of Scientology aligns itself with:

  45. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian “””Many approaches, one goal”” but those approaches reach that goal.. As you pointed out KILLING and that goes on.. so if those approaches would be working when practised… yes? the killing should have stopped by now?

  46. FOTF2012,

    Yes, that is how I feel about it too.

    The why IMHO, is because every action that we do is toward becomingness and havigness. They are the reasons to be human and the reasons to be alive.

    The faithful are attempting to have something remain, that is impossible to posses.

    That is the paradox of spiritual growth, in that it is ultimately dependent on how much we are willing to let go. When we observe things as they actually are, we begin to let go and become less attached and invested in creating a solid, permanent reality.

    It is not really a marketable proposition, in that most people are going the opposite way.

    Anyways that is my 2 cents.

  47. It seems to me, Independent Scientologists are comfortable with seeing the written words of Hubbard as great tech, changed my life, now I am a realized soul. They see the dots connected between Ron’s written words and their gains. They say,”Scientology is good.” The books, the auditor training from Ron’s words, the tapes etc. All of these words are worthy of praise and can be easily associated with Ron from Independents. Dead though he may be, his work lives on in his written works.

    But there is a disconnect in logic and tolerance when you associate Ron’s written words and his institutionalizing bigotry, crushing freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of press, brutal punishment of children, families etc with his written words. Then who ever brings up the subject gets demeaned in some way. I am getting good at being demeaned. It is refreshing to clear out personal reactions to other people’s issues. There is nothing like an inaccurate snarky judgement to make me practice mindfulness. IT’s the best! Thank you, all you wonderful demeanors!!!!!! I love you 😉

    It is like having to have to admit that Santa was a car thief. The emotional investment into the image, the PR and most importantly: One’s own projection of who they THINK Ron was, is too much for the mind to accept.

    So then you have, who ever brings up the positive writings and positive side to Ron as “good people” who “get Scientology.”

    But if you bring up the written words that teach hate, elitism, violence against free speech, freedom of religion etc, then you, the communicator of Ron’s negative side gets judged.

    There is a brainwashing associated with this disconnect. Not the least of which is the years of agreeing to the diabolical and evil concept that those who judge Ron or Scientology are evil and want to stop the “ONLY” hope for man. That was an unquestionable act of arrogant diabolical mind control.

    Apologists for Ron’s violent and immoral tendencies, though they will say,”hey I know he did some bad things” are still not in touch with the reality of Hubbard. Who is was as a man minus the messiah BS.

    It is Ron’s written words of violent retribution that are in play in the present time. The instruction manual that DM is following is Ron’s and only Ron’s. Time for demeaning people!!!!! Can’t I get a good demeanor when I need one??

    Real people who believe in Hubbard have numbed their conscience. Once they were decent human beings. Now they are fighting a cosmic evil birthed from an unbalanced mind. To harm a few SPs is ethical in order to save the greatest good.

    Ron apologists are numb to the repercussions of this doctrine. It is easy to blame DM. He is truly mad. It is harder to blame Ron because he was master at laying into your consciousness how he wanted you to perceive him. Ron was no two bit thug like DM.

    Ron was a master orchestrator. A master hypnotist. A genius of perceiving subtle levels of psychology. He had the power to implant into your mind, various thoughts, that he thought would be good for maximum control.

    And he did it while giving you techniques that were amazingly benevolent and healing.

    And that, and that alone, is where the trap is laid: the cognitive disconnect on steroids.

  48. Confront

    Faced him

    Faced her

    Faced it

    Your face turned to………..

  49. The Church of Scientology is cursed.

    Either that or the technical data on inverted vectors actually does bear out in reality.

    Or is there a known psychological manifestation where every decision a person/entity makes seems to go against them/it?

    Last option: premeditation.

    I like the curse option. I’ve never believed in curses or given them much thought, but watching the hatred gather around this organisation as it flounders toward the abyss and oblivion has made me reconsider. Why forgive when there is no need for forgiveness?

  50. Yes there are enablers. You look at the people people David sent to Texas to suppress someone else. They were given wrong items wrong whos wrong targets. They were told they were “crusaders” working for “justice” and they should be “helping the Church” and that Marty should be harmed attacked and suppressed.

    These were all wrong items and these people had out lists and wrong items on a list.

    Every “new release” is based on wrong why’s and wrong who’s.

    I mean, this isn’t a Scientology thing. This is a social thing. Telling someone there is a person or thing that is the “why” and this is a false report creates a wrong who or a wrong why.

    “Global warming” is a “why” right now. Poverty is a “why” right now. Race is a “why” right now. Culture is a “why” right now. Obama, public school systems, the economy, credit scores, and of the biggest why, really is God.

  51. Can you explain your point again Elizabeth. I’m not clear on your statement.

  52. “Oblivious” is a wrong item for me Conan. Thanks anyway for the offering anyway. Just because we are not in agreement with our views doesn’t mean either one of us in handicapped..

  53. Here’s a pretty good one from Merriam-Webster:

    “to deal with (something, such as a problem or danger); especially : to deal with (something) in an honest and direct way”

    And here are the definitions Ron gave:

    CONFRONT, n. 1 . an action of being able to face. (HCOB 4 Jan 73) 2 . the ability to be there comfortably and perceive. (HCOB 2 Jun 71 I) 3. confront itself is a result and an end product. It itself isn’t a doingness, it’s an ability. (SH Spec 21, 6106C27) —v. to face without flinching or avoiding. (HCOB 4 Jan 73)

  54. Great post.

  55. Hubbard is your who and why. Good for you. To put this as an item for everyone that has explored and Scientology is very neat.

    But this also puts Hubbard in the position of being a “God” and assumes that people were created fresh by him.

    That isn’t something I can think with yet. Maybe somewhere up the line if I become religious.

  56. For the benefits of both Scientology and Dianetics to fulfill their legacies to mankind it is necessary that these subjects purge themselves of the entire concept of “The Founder”. Get LRH and his ubber self-aggrandizement out of the way and the current “Pope Dave” fades away pretty quickly because there’s no foundation for these sociopath foundations and manifestations.

    That’s my view……

    By the way Mosey and Marty: Godspeed on this litigation. And thanks for your huge contributions!

  57. Well I wouldn’t assume for a minute any of us could be seeing things the way you are. We just don’t have your experience. Nobody else has that panoramic view. We weren’t Int execs and we weren’t up at Int and we weren’t auditing celebrities and most of us were not even auditors and the majority of Scientologists were not even in the Sea Org. None of us have had to go through the situation you have been put through over the last several years. I’m sure I am missing a lot.

    I only know when there is disharmony, when grown people are doing things that seemingly have no reason as their base, such as what I have seen grown people do down in Texas, they have been misinformed with wrong information.

    I can see there is a situation within the current organized group where people can not or will not say “No”.

    I don’t know why “No” is such an easy word for me and not for someone else. But the majority of people that get involved in Scientology move on. They do not stick around. They use what they want and not what they don’t.

    There are fanatics. But to say Hubbard made them that way is to say I knew them before they got involved in Scientology and saw them broken down to that.

    From where I view and I have met a lot of Scientologists myself, most people will not depart from common sense. I worked at the base and I had plenty of public talk to me, about what they did and didn’t like. They talked to me about everything. Many complained about David Miscavige, the base, the staff at the base, the wait, the cost, the tech. And they are all gone, the ones I knew, except for what I could put on one hand. And I spoke to 10 people a day at a minimum from all over the world. And they aren’t running around acting like criminals either. The staff, they talked to me too. They saw things and thought for themselves, a lot of them. They are gone too. Even Debbie Cook.

    I don’t have your experience, but did a lot of surveys.

  58. You knew Hubbard a lot better than I did.

  59. By the way, did you ever read the policy letter where Hubbard said policies should be reviewed from time to time and the ones that are not making sense anymore should be tossed out?

  60. martyrathbun09

    Understandable. We have different perspectives. Nice to be able to share them.

  61. martyrathbun09

    Well, another perspective: Scientology is more rigidly monotheistic than just about any established religion. Will explain in next book for those interested.

  62. The eyes of David Miscavige:

  63. Robert Almblad

    I came to the same conclusion that “there is legal precedent that protects you should you ever be targeted by the Scientology Inquisition.”

  64. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian Do forgive I have lost some concepts, left them out therefore the senseless meaning.. please drop the whole thing into the shredder. [ too many interruptions ]

  65. The Oracle –

    People believe in and adopt their religious teachings.

    If their religion tells them to do something, and they consider themselves a follower of that religion, they generally do it. This is true of any religion.

    Hubbard’s writings on Scientology are read, word-cleared, put in clay, drilled, and false-data stripped by Scientologists.

    Hubbard, not Miscavige, made it a high crime, that could result in the loss of ones “eternity” and possibly the destruction of their livelihoods and families, if a Scientologist did not apply what he wrote and said on Scientology 100% standardly.

    Perhaps you forgot that about Scientology. It’s a huge and very particular effort that goes into making a Scientologist. In fact it is a colossal onslaught a Scientologist must endure.

    Every single Scientologist is trying very hard to apply Hubbard’s Scientology 100% standardly to improve conditions, to clear the planet, and to reach total freedom.

    Including David Miscavige.

    David Miscavige is an all too common End Phenomenon of a person who has lived and worked in an environment that was totally controlled by Scientology all his life.

    That is something that must be confronted about Scientology, too.


  66. I agree with you there. This leads me to think I may have had a blind spot about other people. Does anyone here think that there are Scientologists that saw Hubbard as God? Or thought he was God?

    I am just becoming aware that there are people who are not Scientologists anymore that see Hubbard as God. So maybe there are some Scientologists who thought Hubbard was God?

    I wouldn’t have thought it, wouldn’t this be “mixing practices” which is taboo?

    But perhaps there are people who are mixing this up with earlier beliefs and concluding Hubbard was God?

    This would be somewhat of a shock to me if it were true.

    Is there anyone on this forum reading this or sharing that thought Hubbard was God? Has it ever come up in conversation with anyone that Hubbard was God?

  67. Marty, I get what Oracle was saying, but I also get what you are saying big time. Every single person who has been harassing you and your family down there in Texas whether they be Scientologists or non-scientologists or whatever is personally responsible for their own actions. And their actions reflect on each one of THEM personally. Each one is creating their own PERSONAL Karma. Their obvious intent has been to make you shut your mouth and cease to exist as who you are. Every one of them. “Scientologists”, non-scientologists, PIs, attorneys, or what-have-you; they have all been personally forwarding this quite EVIL intention. You and each member of your family as well as each and every being has an inalienable right to be who you are and communicate.

  68. Thank you for creating this platform and giving us all this opportunity! It really has evolved into new bridges between people. People can disagree and not even think less of one another for the differences! That is pretty amazing in itself!

  69. Well I am guilty as charged. “Magical thinking” is the new taboo. This is now a deficiency in sanity. An outpoint. To be “normal” one must distance themselves from any magicality or this type of “thinking”. This is slowly becoming illegal by the thought police.

  70. It’s a kind of magic
    It’s a kind of magic
    A kind of magic
    One dream one soul one prize one goal
    One golden glance of what should be
    It’s a kind of magic
    One shaft of light that shows the way
    No mortal man can win this day
    It’s a kind of magic
    The bell that rings inside your mind
    Is challenging the doors of time
    It’s a kind of magic
    The waiting seems eternity
    The day will dawn of sanity
    Is this a kind of magic
    It’s a kind of magic
    There can be only one
    This rage that lasts a thousand years
    Will soon be done
    This flame that burns inside of me
    I’m here in secret harmonies
    It’s a kind of magic
    The bell that rings inside your mind
    Is challenging the doors of time
    It’s a kind of magic
    It’s a kind of magic
    The rage that lasts a thousand years
    Will soon be will soon be
    Will soon be done
    This is a kind of magic
    There can be only one
    This rage that lasts a thousand years
    Will soon be done-done
    Magic – it’s a kind of magic
    It’s a kind of magic
    Magic magic magic magic
    Ha ha ha it’s magic
    It’s a kind of magic.

  71. Marty, I don’t believe that you ever went to law school, but then again neither did Abraham Lincoln. Your analysis is brilliant and goes straight to the issue. Thanks to you and Mosey and Ray and the courts of this country the truth will be revealed.
    People who value their freedom to practice and communicate their beliefs and thoughts owe you a big debt of gratitude. Independent Scientologists in particular, whether they agree with your views about Scientology tech or not, should acknowledge you for standing up for THEIR rights to practice THEIR ideas and beliefs, and to communicate them to other people. Because you have been taking the flack by confronting suppression that would otherwise without a doubt be concentrated on them, they are that much freer to pursue their purposes. Honor demands that this be acknowledged and appreciated.

  72. Shall we refer to it as the new “M” word?

  73. Your friends came by here today.
    I think all their 20 members are spread out thin. i will hold up, hope you guys are all doing fine. Hugs Cece

  74. miraldi

    Elsewhere Ron has said that “confront is the ability and action of not being something. Also, “Confront is being other than”. “What you cannot confront you are being”.

    Which leads one to the conclusion that In order to confront something it requires that you be both exterior to it and observing it.


  75. You said it, perfectly.

  76. +1000

  77. Ha ha, well said. I’ve been there from time to time:-)

  78. Conan: “Scientologists, like any other people on earth before, have been subjected to heavy religious indoctrination, and that they are having a very tough time disentangling themselves from the lies that Hubbard embedded into his Cult.”

    The only thing offensive about the above statement is how general it is. WHICH “Scientologists”? And which lies? I don’t recall anyone on this particular blog indicating that they were having trouble “disentangling themselves from the lies.” Have you?

    Actually, of the posters here who see the positive (as well as the negative) in Hubbard’s works, I’m not sure they would even call themselves Scientologists. “Former Scientologists” might be more correct.

  79. I read, Bare Faced Messiah, Piece of the Blue Sky, Messiah or Madman.

    Read interviews with Mayo regarding his experience with Ron.

    Read Hana Whitefields interview regarding her experiences with Ron.

    Read Barbara Kaye’s interview about her close intimate relation with Ron.

    Read statements from his two ex wives reagarding their relationship with Ron.

    Read Otto Roose’s view of his relationship with Ron.

    Read Marty’s last book.

    I found cross references on the internet regarding many of the allegations made about Ron.

    I know these things now because I had the desire to find out. Through my last two years of research I have made my own conclusions Oracle.

    They are not your consclusions. They are mine. And I am not the only one to have come to these conclusions.

  80. Thank you Christine. That was thoughtful with heart.

  81. Thanks Dio and Conan. Dio, good point. And Sagan is one of my heroes. Conan, your comment struck me as very insightful.

    In reflecting, I could say that “salvation” in many religions is the guarantee of eternal beingness and havingness (not so sure about the role of doingness — it seems to range from never-ending worship to sitting by streams eating wonderful fruit and so forth).

    Since nothing subject to time can last forever, what would it even mean to have an “eternity” in some sort of a heaven?

    Yet one can understand the fear of non-beingness that propels people into faith in the “one true religion.”

    Such pondering reminds me of things in Buddhism — and Scientology — that I do agree with.

  82. I agree Tom. That would be Scientology: the study of knowing how to know.

    And not Hubbardology: the study of what Ron knew, discovered, plagerized or imagined.

  83. martyrathbun09

    What is so pernicious about it is that no Scientologist can see it, but their words and actions betray it. So, I doubt you’ll get any ‘yeses’ to your survey.

  84. Wow. This is a reality adjustment for me. I never would have guessed it. It sure does explain a lot though. Wow. I’m going to have to think about this for awhile. Kind of a shock. That is kind of scary. And funny at the same time. It equal parts.

  85. “must be” s are oppressive. No thanks.

  86. But anyway Alanzo, You keep bringing up “religion”, the problem is that I have not been viewing Scientology as a religion. It wasn’t one when I got involved.

    I am starting to get it that me and other people can be involved in the same thing and think we are in different places. I don’t really understand how other people have been taking it on as a religion. When I got in Hubbard was saying it very definitely was NOT a religion. It was right there in his book.

    We might as well be on different planets.

    I don’t understand how other people could view it as a religion, or think they are in a religion. Or think of Hubbard as a God, not even a fucking angel. Not even a minister. I was around when the whole minister identity was mocked up and it’s only purpose then was to avoid the draft. The only purpose for the “religion” angle was for taxes.

    I didn’t think people actually believed it and was amazed it was used with I.R.S. to force a tax offer and compromise with them. But I could see the angle.

    Anyone that has ever been in a Org has seen it is a business. Not a Church.

    The fact that there are people who think it is a Church, and are seeing perhaps angels and Gods and other religious symbols is creepy to me. But I can see how they have been put there with the Crosses, the words, and all of the symbols that travel with “religion”. Even then, the “leader” is certainly not a religious man. Not AGAINST THE BACK DROP OF HIS CRIMES. So how could anyone think they are really part of a religion? The Sea Org forces women to abortion. That isn’t religious. That is anti religious. But anyway, apparently there are people who agree it is a religion and you are one of them.

    As you you have it all figured out in: “People believe in and adopt their religious teachings.”

    We aren’t even talking about the same thing. No need to even disagree.

  87. Well I am no expert on time management, but I doubt you will find the right God by beating up the wrong one.

  88. The real magic is when, for example, one can communicate with another directly, and it’s perfectly normal, not magical at all.

  89. How about “curiosity seekers?” Laughter!

  90. And I guess a lot of people really do think the why is God. Whatever Name is God is going by at the moment or whatever drivers license or social security number God is using to get around. Except then God wouldn’t be a God anymore right? He would be a man. A mortal man.

  91. But isn’t that the logical fallacy of Negative Proof?

    “A negative proof is a logical fallacy which takes the structure of:

    “X is true because there is no proof that X is false.

    “If the only evidence for something’s existence is a lack of evidence for it not existing, then the default position is one of skepticism and not credulity.”

  92. Good one, Eric.

    Here’s another good reference about confront – lack of which may be the basic on “dualism”:

    “The less a pc can confront two things, the more he fixes on one. This is the highly individual person, also the self-auditing case.

    “This is probably the basic trap of a thetan. He is a single unit that has not cared to confront dual units and is therefore subject to the persistence of all dual things. As he does not seem to care as much for two as he does for one, that which is not admired tends to persist and we have a persisting dual universe.

    “Also, when he is with somebody else, he tends to confront the other person but not to confront himself. ‘What about you could you confront?’ is a murderous process. It is all right to run. It picks up the times when his attention was off self and yet self was creating. This is the genus of a reactive bank. It is probably what pain is.” (from HCOB 31 Mar 60, “The Present Time Problem”)

  93. I will say this. Anyone who feels threatened by this “Church” or “Religion” can relax.

    It was not a religion in Hubbard’s time. David Miscavige got it labeled a religion. And so being, a Church. He changed all of the “customers” into “members”. And named himself “religious leader”. ( Religious leader that drinks Scotch, has extra marital affairs, rents limos to go beat up Mission Holders and tortures and abuses staff, and civilians that have never been affiliated with the Church.) He made this his gig.

    This was truly the beginning of the end for Scientology.

    First of all, that automatically EXCLUDES EVERYONE that is already a member of a Church and has their own religion. That was wild stupidity. People that already own a home they are happy in, aren’t looking for another one.

    When it was marketed as self help, a science of the mind, magic, anything else, it grew.

    Statistics for religion all around the world have declined at a rapid rate. Organized religion is on the decline. Just like in baskets, hard cover books, Churches, bullfighters, and the printing press.

    Scientology was placed in the category of “Organized Religion”. On purpose. There isn’t anything unique about organized religion.

    The PURPOSE of a Church is to translate. In the beginning people didn’t have books or couldn’t read. A Church was the meet up place where someone who did have a book or could read, could translate for them.

    We have the Internet, audio books, people can read, people can Google.

    All of the tech is in the Independent Movement, save for maybe a few RPF repair process’, but nobody out here is selling and delivering the RPF.

    Currency is subject to close with the bank it is in. And David’s cash isn’t Federally Insured.

    David does not hold the keys to future, he holds the keys to the past. But then, so do all of us.

    I feel for the loss many people will have, that have their entire identity tied up on one fragile balloon in this universe. Either as a “Scientologist” or an “Anti Scientologist”.

  94. T.O.: “Is there anyone on this forum reading this or sharing that thought Hubbard was God? Has it ever come up in conversation with anyone that Hubbard was God?”

    I think it’s true that most Scientologists who are, or once were, in the CoS think of Hubbard as God. Even though they wouldn’t word it that way, they believe(or believed) he knew all and could do no wrong – which, in essence, is seeing him as God.

    But I doubt that anyone on this forum still thinks that way. (And maybe you and some others never did.) Just because some of us still see a lot of positive in Scientology doesn’t mean we haven’t confronted the gross outnesses that have occurred, and it’s odd that some posters can’t accept that even when they are told explicitly that this is the case.

    IMO, those who haven’t broken free of the belief system that makes Hubbard God would not usually be reading and posting on this blog but on other forums. And it would be interesting to know what percentage of former church members are in each of these general categories.

  95. martyrathbun09

    Nearly all of your screeds here, and virtually all of Scientology’s ‘proofs’, are based precisely upon what you have presented here.

  96. He claimed to be the Buddha. Not a Buddha. The Buddha. That accomplishes a very similar association of being a Transcendent Being. In the east the word God and Buddhahood are really the same.

    Beyond a doubt Oracle, Ron set himself up to be seen as that, while at the same time, using the rhetoric of humility, he tells us he is only a man.

    But that was his Buddha- false- humility-PR line.

    He falsely reveals himself to only be a man. Then tells us he’s the Buddha, then tells us he is the only “man” to ever go through the wall of fire and find implants from 10,000,567,896,098,432 years, 10 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 8 hours, 7 minutes and 59.0096 seconds ago!

    Then he tells us that Scientology is the only road to freedom, then he tells us all other roads are implants or only keyed out or inverted 8th dynamic.

    Then he convinces his followers that mankind is destined to become, literally, a piece of MEST if they don’t become Scientologists. He says to us,”I’ve seen how dark it can be, it is worse than I thought” (paraphrase)

    Then he tells us he travelled to heaven, twice, and saw that it is really a low rent implant.

    What……………….. normal man………………..says……………. these….things?????

    The I am just a man PR line was just that: PR

    He told us who he wanted us to see him as, by using the smoke screen of humility while laying in the implant of his unique Godlike/Buddhalike status.

    Normal men do not claim to be Buddha, travel to heaven, have perfect memories from trillions of years down to the second.

    You can completely trash the ideas of Ron’s Godhood or Buddhahood and replace it with:

    the most unique genius, the greatest human being, the greatest spiritual hero, the one true world savior, with the most perfect bridge (PR line is workable, sounds more scientific and humble) first human being to do this that or the other. On and on

    So use the word or concept you want Oracle. Ron positioned himself to be the toppest of the mostest, the bestest of heroes, the biggest being, the most OT.
    If you Oracle, did not buy into that, you are one independent, free thinking women. My hat is off to you.

    Most of us on the other hand, the rank and file, lapped it up as true. Because he said it was. And Scientologists deify Ron’s written words. You have to, or you will be sent to cramming, ethics or a comm ev.

  97. Oracle –

    Scientology was established as a religion in 1954.

    And yes, that move by Hubbard was in contradiction to his earlier statements when he was earlier calling it a “science”. He contradicted himself quite often all throughout his life. Anyone who would spot these contradictions were told they had “misunderstood words”. That was part of the onslaught I had mentioned earlier.

    But are you telling me, Oracle, that when someone said to you, “I’m a Christian” for example, you never said, “I’m a Scientologist”?

    Even if you got into Scientology in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s, Scientology was a religion then. I understand your viewpoint when you say that you did not consider Scientology a religion like Christianity is. I understand that to mean that “Man is so abberrated that all these lower level groups are insane, but we Scientologists are not. We have this technology and we call it a religion because there is no other place to put it on this insane prison planet.”

    But even that serves as a religion to human beings. Scientology is a religion that is so far superior that it’s not even a religion!

    But when you say that Scientology was never your religion, I think you are just changing the context to make it look like I was duped and you were not.

    Do I have that correct?

    Well who duped me?

    David Miscavige or L Ron Hubbard?


  98. What did Christ do but show up and lay down the law? The ten commandments, defining right and wrong, sin. The Bible is a big ethics book.

    Way back magic and religion were considered to be the same thing. They divided when one became a study of ethics and the other remained a study of the supernatural. Magic has it’s own ethics.

    If one’s identity is entwined with immortality, you know you will not lose that identity and you will be living with yourself forever. Why would you do things that would make you not want to live with yourself?

  99. FOTF2012

    “Since nothing subject to time can last forever, what would it even mean to have an “eternity” in some sort of a heaven?


    I think you just pointed at why people become so crazy about religion.

  100. Brian,
    Once again, thanks for the breath of fresh air. Your comment:

    “Real people who believe in Hubbard have numbed their conscience. Once they were decent human beings. ”

    I have come to adopt the simple test of whether what an individual says and what he does have alignment. When there is a divergence then it is likely there is some belief system in play which the individual has willingly (and possibly unknowingly) adopted.

    Belief in Hubbard as a fundamentally sound, well intentioned and benevolent person who simply existed for the benefit of all mankind is not born out by the facts IMHO. Individuals who operate with this belief rather than on their own direct observations are driving on a very rough road IMHO.

  101. Marildi,
    A generality? look harder.

  102. To answer the God question re: LRH …

    While I never called him God — I ascribed all of the attributes OF God to LRH.

    I thought he was supremely benevolent. I thought he was omniscient — I thought with his blessing (which meant following the rules perfectly) my life and my 7 remaining dynamics would be “blessed”

    As a Sea Org member — I thought I was doing God’s work — errrr … Ron’s work.

    My first experience of this omniscience gone awry was the death of Quentin. I heard about it while on mission in Toronto from CCLA. I was there with my then husband. He told me about the report in the Toronto paper.

    I emphatically told him it was a horrible journalistic lie — that LRH would NEVER ALLOW his son to die. That he would know he was in trouble, if he indeed had been, and would have saved him.

    Hmmmm — not so much.

    Then my world feel apart in 1980 — still in the Sea Org — doing God’s work (oops LRH’s) — my father committed suicide.

    At THAT point — LRH lost all meaning for me. Everything I had correctly or incorrectly THOUGHT scientology and LRH was … broke in half.

    I would have left scientology forever at that point however the only friends/people I knew were scientologists — but it took me about a year to open a book again.

    I think many more people THINK in some skewered fashion that LRH IS god. After all — how many STILL think their eternity depends on following the tech.

    More than you might think.


    Obviously many will state how dumb I was to think LRH was God. I mean didn’t he say over and over – he was just a man. Sure he said that BUT he acted AS IF he was god. Weren’t there pictures of him all over and standing and clapping and penance and all of that.

    Seems like he was putting himself up there AS a god.


  103. TO,
    People really really want to believe. Give them something to believe in is what LRH operated on. He was also good at the bait and switch.

    Tell them they are source, that they are God and that anything less is only due to their having adopted a reactive mind. Tell them you have found THE WAY OUT ……………….follow me kids.

    Before long LRH is GOD!!! He must be, he saved me and he is saving all of the planet and nearby galaxies ………………………..really????

    Give them enough truth for the buy in and then go for the jugular ……. and of course all their human labor, their time, their life and of course we would not want to leave out the cash aspect of all of their and their families cash and savings.

  104. Immortality falls within the supernatural. Your decisions then would not be based on ” the greatest good for the greatest dynamics”. But on the idea that you have to live with yourself. Not just for today, or in this life, but forever. That is a different kind of ethics.

    Maybe Hubbard thought since Christ made such a splash with the ethics it was a successful action. It was. But the ten commandments were good policy and common sense. Our civilization and all of our laws are built on that. Christ established good policy. There was no need to change it. Worked fine for me. But he was a magician and there are tales of his magic and other magic in the Bible. And he a policy maker.

    If people have been steeped in some “religious experience” and viewing Hubbard as God, I understand the seriousness now and why people didn’t just get up the bridge while they were doing other things. I guess just “surrendering” ones self at the front door was all the “religious experience” some people needed.

    There is an idea in some religions of “surrending” oneself to the will of another. That is the same as going under general anesthesia. Which I would be glad to do if I was undergoing open heart surgery. But I am beginning to see the issue here with people and religion and Scientology.
    Why Hubbard is judged so harshly if he was supposed to be something he wasn’t.

    I wish you the best on your travels and searches for the Holy men that can take you to where you want go.

  105. That must be what the His Holiness does at the events! That is why we call him DM …..Definitely Magic!

  106. Marildi wrote:

    But I doubt that anyone on this forum still thinks that way. (And maybe you and some others never did.) Just because some of us still see a lot of positive in Scientology doesn’t mean we haven’t confronted the gross outnesses that have occurred, and it’s odd that some posters can’t accept that even when they are told explicitly that this is the case.

    I recognize that this is the case with you, Marildi.

    From Day 1 in speaking with you, I could see that you strive always to seek to live with the truth. And your use of logic and reason to come to your own conclusions are very clear in your writing. At least it has always been very clear to me.

    That reference you gave to the Negative Proof Fallacy alone demonstrates this.

    It is an important step to recognize that anyone who disagrees with us may have a valid rationale, based on sound reasoning for doing so. I have tested your reasoning many times, and found it sound quite often. It is reasoning that I do not agree with, but it is sound reasoning nonetheless.

    The problem occurs when you question someone to test their reasoning and you find nothing there but fixed ideological platitudes which are lying in a bed of pure emotion, with no thought or reasoning in sight. That’s when it scares me, and I feel like I need to get them thinking again.

    For me, that’s never been the case with you.

    You and I just disagree. But it is a respectful disagreement which I am sure will melt with time, as you come to agree with me and see things exactly as I do.

    Alanzo :>

  107. o·bliv·i·ous
    [ ə blívvee əss ]

    1.unaware: unaware of or paying no attention to somebody or something,

    2.forgetting: forgetting about somebody or something.

    I’m sorry if I’m giving you ‘wrong items” Oracle, but I’m assuming this website is for adults?

  108. Tom,
    Exactly, it is like NED auditing. Run the postulate, the source of the engram, and the whole thing crumbles.

  109. Christine,
    Very nicely stated. I especially like:

    “To me — until/unless enough people formerly involved with scientologyFULLY STEP BACK and say — good grief. Was THAT me?

    And start to embrace a new mind-set — we will continue to have dm as Lucifer while he is actually only one of the devils.”

    I would add for myself……..’we will continue to have DM as Lucifer and LRH as GOD………….’


  110. No we don’t think the why is God, we thing that Hubbard is the Who, followed by his psychotic successor, who is having a hard time selling himself as God’s agent on earth.

    Just to paraphrase Judge Waldrip:

    “How one founds a religion, writes all its scriptures as its SOURCE, runs it for 35 years, and is not responsible for its outcome?

  111. First of all, I am of the opinion that Scn IS NOT a religion, in the traditional sense. So when I see the church pretend to be like other religions (e.g. dog collars, crosses, “cathedrals”, places of worship, etc) I cringe. It is an embarrassing valance, and a tech degrade.

    So, it is of no surprise that they would latch on to a destructive practice like shunning and claim it to be a religious right. As actual delivery of Scn becomes less and less, all of these trappings will become more and more important, as Scn will become identified by these “borrowed” rites and practices and less by the technology they were once able to apply.

    If allowed to continue on its dwindling spiral, Scn will be virtually unrecognizable in 20 years as it graduates to the ranks of mainstream religion. All major religions have taken this course. Religions of the past could claim ignorance of this mechanism, Hubbard and Scnists can make no such claim.

  112. Also in answer to the God/LRH question:

    I grew up in the cadet org (cleaning task force would be more apt) in the 80’s. I did not know a world from “before”. Strangely, even then I thought Scientology was an applied philosophy. The religion angle sat for me like badly fitted clothes. However, I also thought of LRH as some kind of super human over the years, reading about his many alleged professions, all his research, tireless schedule, the fact that when he left WW, it took over 100 people to replace him (his words). I saw him quite possibly the way an illiterate peasant might have seen the arch bishop, a flawless person who was so far above my ability to understand life I could never hope to be there myself. For many years I believed he was blameless and honest, that the tech did work on all cases every time.

    I was in awe, and after I don’t know how many events spent clapping at his portrait, how many success stories I read with “thanks to LRH, sir!” and those I wrote myself ever since I could write – I’d say I never consciously viewed him as god, but it is what it boiled down to, ultimately. Really, though, I thought Scientology taught that I was god in my own universe, but my own universe got far less attention that LRH’s. All acknowledgement of my blessings went to him, all acknowledgement of my sins went to me.

    Today, I see him as a man who created a psychotherapy that some claim sets you free while others claim it doesn’t. Very few seem to acknowledge themselves and their own work in either view. I have taken him off the pedestal, but still don’t know if any of the tech he created was real or just a grand illusion that some still believe today. I do avoid the fundamentalists who’d rather see me dead go free on the wrong path.

  113. Awesome post, LG.


  114. Oracle:
    “I understand the seriousness now and why people didn’t just get up the bridge while they were doing other things.”
    When I would read Ron’s writings in the past, I would usually think about it in simplistic terms. For instance, not practicing other beliefs while getting auditing made sense. While sitting in a chair with cans in your hands, one should be concentrating on finding that pain in your knee, that dialogue while laying on the pavement, that confusion etc. Wondering whether this system fits in with other beliefs and realities at that moment doesn’t make your knee better. Later, as one’s awareness is a bit more clear, look around and evaluate all you want.

    Example: Affluence. Don’t borrow money during a temporary affluence. Once the affluence is over, your screwed. Simple.

    Many people have brought up complex ideas about how Ron’s policies led to horrible consequences. Perhaps I’m not bright enough to see some of these strings of logic, but it seems to me that a real butthead can screw anything up if he wants to. Oh, a few things were obviously bad, such as disconnection, but for the most part policies were just common sense.

    Maybe I’m just a kind of guy who avoids looking for problems. Also, when someone gets shot, I look for the guy holding the gun, not trying to figure out what his 2nd grade teacher said that could have caused it.

    In philosophy, one usually finds what he is looking for.

    But then, I’m just a simple guy.

  115. It is what free societies do. It is an honor to share our passionate views. Sometimes I think; it’s not the issues we ponder together that are as important as the connections we make and abilities in communication we gain through practicing civil discourse.

    I for one learn more about me by how I interact with others. I learn patience, transcending my ego, self restraint, confidence in those ideas that are true: certain principles I adhere to, conversational strategies and simply pure fun.

  116. “…disagreement which I am sure will melt with time, as you come to agree with me and see things exactly as I do.”

    Al, you always crack me up! If the disagreement ever melts, it will be because of that.

    Certainly not because of your reasoning. (LOL)

    And thanks for the compliment (I think… 🙂 ) I like you too!

  117. Funny!

  118. Marildi wrote:

    But isn’t that the logical fallacy of Negative Proof?

    By the way, excellent move in pulling out this logical fallacy, but it does not apply in this case.

    Marty said:

    What is so pernicious about it is that no Scientologist can see it, but their words and actions betray it. So, I doubt you’ll get any ‘yeses’ to your survey.

    Even though no Scientologists can see it, their words and actions betray it.

    See? The evidence or proof is in the words and actions of Scientologists.

    So well done on trying to support your point with logic, but bummer it did not work out this time.

    Keep it up, though. You’re doing great.

    Alanzo (:>

  119. “…abilities in communication we gain through practicing civil discourse. I for one learn more about me by how I interact with others. I learn patience, transcending my ego, self restraint, confidence in those ideas that are true: certain principles I adhere to…”

    +1 (even though usually from the other side of the fence 🙂 )

  120. Alanzo: “See? The evidence or proof is in the words and actions of Scientologists.”

    Okay, but how do you yourself define “Scientologist”? And who are these “Scientologists” that you are you referring to?

  121. Hell Mirildi, what fun would it be to be always agreed with: BORING lol.

    You come here because you love every minute of it. We philosophers love the conceptual joust.

    My only criticism of you is that you make it personal. The exchange of ideas is wonderful. My advice to you, don’t make it personal. It’s more fun and as soon as it becomes ad hominem, the ideas are gone.

    How can we enjoy our differences if we think each other is a jerk?

    By all means demolish my argument with ideas. That is more fun.

    If I start getting into a dialog of trying to proove to you that I am not a A-hole, what fun is that?

    To me, all this back and forth of ideas is a great testing ground for granting beingness, defending principles and learning from others, practicing being even minded and unconditioned by outer circumstances.

    Until next round, I bid thee good day 🙂

  122. Tom Gallagheer

    I agree. Great summation.

  123. No, I never introduced myself as a Scientologist to anyone. We didn’t call it a church when I got involved in Scientology, it was just called “The Org”. Nobody where I was called it a church. Everyone just called it the Org. And the Missions were called by their Mission holder name or location. Nobody would have believed it was a church. It was on the second floor of a hotel in midtown. Some of the staff were moonlighting as topless dancers. Most of the people were young hippies to tell you the truth. This was in November of 1972, I was only 16 years old for two weeks when I signed up for H.Q.S.. Things were very different. There was no IAS or big contributors. I went clear for 5000.00. And that was a long bridge, early Dianetics. Body routers. We were all a bunch of social misfits with ruined lives trying to get ourselves together. I guess it was like what you would envision a Narconon center today. Some staff were still smoking weed on the week ends. We heard Hubbard was out on a ship. We thought he was sailing around with a bunch of hippies and maybe they were all getting high too. Until the Sea Org Members showed up.

    But I don’t have any problem thinking of myself as a Scientologist, in terms of being involved with it.

    I had an education in religion starting early in my youth, as church was a social activity for many people. A lot of people dedicated their entire Sunday to going to church and dinner. In inner cities Sundays were the only day that was a good day for a lot of people. I was always being dragged to Church by a friend growing up. Often, it was the only place you could go outside of your apartment and not have to worry about getting into a fist fight.

    When I spent time with my Grandfathers family in the summer my aunts were all up in the Church all summer long and there was Bible school. People were dressed up. People sang. People learned. My roots were steeped in Church from the country to the inner city. I loved to go to church. All the social events were held at church. People didn’t rent venues where I was. The Church was the community center. The church music in the inner cities would rock the block.

    When I was about ten, I became steeped in all things Greek through school. Greek history, Greek mathematics, and Greek mythology. I believed in God. Then it made more sense the way the Greeks viewed it, there were actually many Gods. That made a lot more sense to me. I knew someone was looking out for me, and they couldn’t be looking out for everyone.

    Even for years after I got involved with Scientology. All the way through the time I was on lines and even in the Sea Org.

    I never met anyone who thought Hubbard was God. If they did, they didn’t say so.

    If someone told me God had taken form and walked in the Earth in the last 200 years, and offered me to guess at who it was, I mean, I would guess Ghandi. Not someone who dressed his friends up in naval uniforms and called himself commodore. That is cloaking. Shape shifting. That falls into the dynamic of magic.

    I may have a limited view of religion or fixed ideas about what religion is or what a church is.

    Scientology was a very friendly place when I got involved. The people were nice, very nice. Very helpful and hopeful about my progress. But I was in a different age group. I didn’t bond socially or see us on the same page or in the same life outside of the Org. So it was this side thing I did. My friends knew about it. Some of them came in to check to place out. One of them signed up for a course. He still gets literature from them to this day. Mostly everyone I knew thought it was weird but they could see I was doing a lot better in life so they were glad I was there. It never interfered with the life I already had. Nobody asked me to disconnect from my friends or change my life. I knew I didn’t have any business in the Org unless I had money to pay for something and was on a service. People didn’t go there to hang out for no reason. Or to sing. Or to have pot luck dinners. Or for group events. If you didn’t have money on account you didn’t have any business there. You didn’t belong there.

    So I could see it was a business.

    I did see the Hare Krishnas as a religion. They had all kinds of social events when I was in California growing up for a few years. You could walk in and eat supper with them. They shared. You could crash there.
    They smelled good and they could dance. They were very friendly and giving people. I liked them. I might have gotten involved with them but I was not about to dance for money and fork it over to someone else. I was a pretty cute kid and if I panhandled for cash I could earn about 25.00 an hour just asking for spare change.

  124. I get what you are saying 100% .

  125. Cooper, you are a very angry man. And you have every right to be whatever you want.

  126. O.K., I believe you.

  127. Brian: “My only criticism of you is that you make it personal.”

    What a coincidence – that was my exact criticism of you. Other than you being a self-righteous A-hole.

    (Joke! I’m testing your sense of humor 😀 )

  128. Thanks for sharing your view. I agree about the embarrassment. If people view it as a Church, why don’t they bring they family there? Why is security all around the front yard? What would you do if you bought a family member or friend there? If they don’t buy they are dev t. People aren’t even allowed to walk around on their own. What would they do? Sit in reception?

  129. My biggest hustle was the “Berkeley Barb”. The Berkeley Barb was a hot hippie newspaper sold in the Bay area. We were living in the Haight Ashbury in San Fransisco on Cole Street, two blocks from Golden Gate Park. I got a job in a pet store cleaning cages and taking care of the animals after school and on the week ends.

    All of the old newspapers that didn’t sell the week before, for that area, would be dropped off at the pet store to be used for the animal cages.

    One day I noticed the paper was only a week old. I scooped up about 20 of them and went over to Golden Gate Park where all the stoned hippies were tripping. “Berkeley Barb!” I yelled out. All the hippie chicks thought I was so cute. I was 12 then. They made their boyfriends buy the papers from me. I was sold out in 30 minutes. I couldn’t believe these papers were getting thrown away. So many people hadn’t read it yet. I made a lot of money as summer was upon us and school was out a few weeks later. It was a great summer to be in San Fransisco. I invested heavily into wardrobe.

  130. All of that aside. I do not feel good about the losses others have been set for and I will never defend that. Now that I understand this better, I have a better understand of other people’s misery. I am very sorry for anyone that has been disappointed in Scientology. If I could take your misery as my own and work through it, I would find a way. I wish I could fix it all. I really do. I hope you do not think less of me because I was a part of it. It wasn’t my purpose to harm anyone. I don’t think I know of anyone that could say they were harmed by me in any way because I was there. But I did contribute to illusion. I can only say, it was an honest mistake and I had no bad intentions behind it. It never occurred to me that people thought they were really in a Church or part of some religion. Or that Hubbard was God. I was ignorant. I apologize for that.

  131. Marildi wrote:

    Okay, but how do you yourself define “Scientologist”? And who are these “Scientologists” that you are you referring to?

    You’re right. They don’t exist. They’re just figments of our imagination.

    They’re like fairies and unicorns.


  132. marildi

    Oops… Sorry about the liberties I seem to have taken with your name in previous posts…

    Interesting observation re. “dualism”

    When I was writing my post, above, I was struck by the connection between “being other than” and the very source of “dualism.” By the very nature of confronting we set up a scenario that separates the “confronter” from anything he confronts.

    It would seem, as stated by some others, that “to be one with God or the universe” one would necessarily have to transcend Dualism, In effect he would have to be willing to become everything and anything. He would have to let go of confronting.


  133. Oracle, I was in the Sea Org at the Hotel Martinique at that time. I knew some of those topless dancers that were, well one was, a course sup.

    But I knew a few of those girls.

    The GO was upstairs. I was MAA.

    Lol, this is how I blew: there was a guy named Charlie that was feeling kinda blowy. I get a comm from Carla, the super cargo to bring Charlie Back, he just ran out the door of the Hotel Martinique.

    I run as fast as I can and see him running down, I think, 5th ave. I yell out, “CHARLIE!!!” LOL, he looks back and sees running after him and takes off like a hunted animal. He was moving!!

    As I am running my ass off for blocks and blocks I have this thought,”what the fuck am I doing???? This is plain sicko”

    I then went into Carla’s office and the CO Molly Bornstein was there. I proceed to tell them I am blowing the Sea Org. They said,”why?’ and I said,”because I am not having fun anymore” LOL

    They looked at me as if they never heard that reason for blowing before.
    They looked a bit confused by the simplicity of it.

    “Yep, not having fun anymore, I am friggin out of here!”

    Al and Molly, now that was quite an experience.

  134. Thank you for sharing lol

    To be clear though, I have never made a personal attack on you. That is not true.

    Self righteous A hole…… Well…. That could be true from time to time 🙂
    But not always.

    How am I doing so far. Have I passed the test?

    Now take this hug damn it! Lol

  135. Brian, That is hysterical! Laughter! You said you were around Geltman’s Mission, I didn’t know you were at the Org!

    Wow! I have a witness!

  136. Brian,

    “….he just ran out the door of the Hotel Martinique.”

    I laughed til my ribs hurt.

  137. Brian,

    “…he looks back and sees running after him and takes off like a hunted animal.”

    I can’t stop laughing.

  138. Brian, The course sup. A.L.?

  139. I enjoyed your view on how you started Scientology, it reminded me of my days no fuss, it was called an Org, Where I began was at St Hill Manor East Grinstead Sussex
    The services were available and frankly a price was charged no one seemed to mind then. It was improvement for people to train/ and have auditing to enchance themselves., and it worked well, Unfortuately that flair and those days are long gone , so is LRH and Marysue .
    Hubbard wasen’t a God and didn’t ever pretend he was either , in my days as a former Registrar I had to tell people many times over ,You make him out to be a God , and that’s not who he is , My view was Its how people perceived and sometimes not in full degree, or neither for that matter his wife Susie as known (.Mary Sue ) LRH wasen’t perfect, but he was a man that provided a tech to improvement and that’s an understatement by a long mile, yet many will be crtitical and blame him, He is dead the dictaor is David Miscaviage and he is off source . and its not as church under what it was any more . But a place these days to recruit / control / rip off / bride misuse / manipulate / alter /change / and a money making business , and
    misuse alter tech , to suit him. Its not the orginal and its off source.

    I have had my share of abuse / and SO days / but under LRH’s leadership
    it was tough / but an experience one wouldn’t ever forget / and a majority of issue’s occurred due to control after LRH was shut from com
    and lied too, / as ewell as inexpereinced untrained admin staff / or no experience at all. and DB’s running it / aswell as poor recruitment I refer to recruitment of staff / SO etc. He isn’t here to defend to speak , so for any one to make a final judgement doesn’t exist .and is no justice.

  140. Oracle –

    This whole side thing about Scientology being a religion and Hubbard being God, all stemmed from this one statement I made to you:

    It is L Ron Hubbard who taught Scientologists – including David Miscavige – to think and act the way they do with regard to Scientology.

    Spotting Source is absolutely essential if you want to make any lasting change.

    I am wondering, after all this, how you feel about my statement now.

    Do you still have a problem with the Scientology materials – the helpful ones AND the abusive ones – being authored by L Ron Hubbard and not David Miscavige?


  141. Elizabeth Hamre

    Hi Brian… reading your post this two word pulled my attention ”personal attack ”’ is that possible? we attack the beliefs.. the theta identifies with the beliefs so fully wrapped him self into that belief as one would do with a cloak. …just saying….

  142. Elizabeth Hamre

    Oracle… Hi… not even close to that concept of God, I had met him in different reality where he was not looked upon as God, on the contrary he was being sentenced for his crime to total annihilation. But was given one chance if…… [I wont write the reason for the sentencing.] he could do amends for the crime and he has done just that. he is just same as any other entity who plays games.. he stepped on many toes but who has not.
    Those persons who throws stone at him never confronted their own overts and those who worship him as God they never looked at their fears…

  143. In retrospect Mirildi, regarding confessing my flaws publicly, I can be arrogant, but I am not an asshole. If I was I would confess it as I have no vested interest in hiding from my nature.

    The label asshole comes from your mind. It is part of your psychological make up that you project on others who challenge you. 🙂

  144. Elizabeth, find the definition of “ad hominem”. Yes it is possible. That is why it is a term that can be looked up in the dictionary.

  145. Elizabeth Hamre

    Thanks for sharing your reality…

  146. Elizabeth Hamre

    Why cant people see scientology now as we had at the Mission in Vancouver.?
    A place where they offered different courses and offered new thing called auditing which was advertised that it could change you to be better person.
    We went into the Mission take courses, and get auditing.. than to ST Hill to do our OT levels..[ my sister] We never worshipped LRH he was in the picture but not the picture just small part of what was presented.
    I believe the PR about him was made in order to make his work look important. valuable: a selling point but that was not needed since those of us who have taken the courses starting with the Communication Course we new it worked we all had huge blowing out wins and getting auditing that really worked, the confrontation brought cognitions of considerable magnitude and the learning winning in the courses and those realizations were the selling points which made us wanting more to continue.
    It seems that the PR the church has put in order to sell, is one of the reasons for failure.

  147. Elizabeth Hamre

    Marildi.. well done for posting that.

  148. Elizabeth Hamre

    Eric… good one, when confronting in that moment the ”I self me.” do not exist.

  149. Elizabeth Hamre

    Eric.. in my reality one is not exterior when confronting, because to be exterior one has to have a location.
    In my reality: when one confronts in that moment one gives up the viewpoint, the consideration that the item one confronts is the self the being [ exp: I am this or that].
    The confrontation is the action which causes the separation from the item and from that moment on one no longer identify with that subject. This do not means the subject or object no longer exist, it only means : the one who confronts NO LONGER INDENTIFIES and stimulated therefore effected by the energy which the item is created from.

  150. Elizabeth Hamre

    Marildi ..LRH 3. confront itself is a result an end product…
    E… of what?

  151. Elizabeth Hamre

    Cece Question for you.. is Cece mean cat or kitten? I call my cat Cica.. that is kitten in Hungarian.

  152. Elizabeth Hamre

    Eric. PS to my earlier post about confronting… one more thing happens at the moment of as-ising… Not only the confronter cuts -as-ises the connection to that energy-mass but at the same moment all connections are as=ised to whom the being who confronts were connected and that can be any one including beings who did not have bodies. So in the action of confrontation many are released and no longer effected by that energy-mass.
    I have gained this understanding from having sessions.

  153. Thanks for the link Oracle. I have written to Louis Theroux offering my services, so it remains to be seen what comes of it.

    Incidentally if anyone in the U.K. is reading this post I would be very glad to hear from you. What I want to do is contact people in England that have gained from the tech. of Scientology and would like to meet up with likeminded folk. I live in Portsmouth and my e-mail address is – telephone 02392 666650.

    Kind regards

  154. Because as L.R.H. says “the one thing about common sense is it is not common”.

  155. I think he is dead wrong! he should not wave that flag it is not just wrong,but very disrespectful to the people who were there and there families. I am ashamed that i am trying to understand them NO MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!

  156. Alanzo, I feel that what you said is true for you. And I do not think you are being difficult or unreasonable. I have had some highs and lows over the last few days with my ideas. Mostly I have come to see there is no cohesive group where people know what the others are doing and thinking and co ordinate thereby and there with. Too many shifts in the landscape and time. I’m alone. I can’t speak for anyone else about Scientology. Everyone can speak for themselves. People are thinking with different ideas. It is not like watching a tree fall and ten people saw it. I don’t know the other people that got involved with this and I don’t know what they were thinking and doing.

    I will say I had an early idea that people shouldn’t follow any policy if it just wasn’t appropriate. But that might have been only me. Based on a policy I read.

    HCO PL 13 Mar 65 What Is Policy?:

    “POLICY is a rule or procedure or a guidance which permits the BASIC PURPOSE to succeed.”

    “Following policy is a matter of grasping situations and knowing policy well enough to apply the right policy to the right situation …

    “Ideas or procedures that were unsuccessful in assisting the basic purpose of an individual, species, organism, organization, become bad policy.”

    “Periodic sweep-outs of antiquated and didactic laws (rather than general concepts and sub-purposes) must be undertaken by a being, organization, group or race or species. However, such an action must be carefully done, selecting only those laws or rules which came into being because of pressure groups or infrequent enemies or which were derived from no experience. And before throwing any policy away one must carefully examine its history to see if it is still restraining an enemy or forwarding some sub-purpose.”

    “Mismanagement or misgovernment of self, an organization, group or state would then consist of failing to forward the BASIC PURPOSE, not grasping and specifying SUB-PURPOSES, and not experiencing and formulating policies to strengthen successful ideas or actions that forward the Basic and Sub-Purposes and impede ideas or actions that retard them and not recognizing actual enemies or oppositions or planning and carrying out successful campaigns to handle them. Failing in any of these actions the individual, group, organization, state, civilization, race or species will falter, fail and die.”

  157. Now that I think of it, ten people watching a tree fall probably couldn’t agree on WHY it fell. Some would think the tree got weak through nutrition. Some would see it as an omen from the Gods. Some would think God was sending a message. Some would think it global warming. Maybe one of them would even think the tree was out to get them.

  158. Oh, I see. The ridicule card. I can always tell when Al has no good answer. 😛

  159. LOL – very funny.

    Nevertheless, no hugs for you! And no soup either!

  160. Thanks Hadley, I enjoyed your view too. I’m thinking you have some very interesting memories and stories of your own.

  161. Wow, interesting, Eric. Your post might have started me thinking in the direction of dualism, and then the reference I found seemed to be alluding to it too.

    I think core/basic Scientology aims for the state of non-dualism, or being “one with God or the universe,” as you wrote. The idea LRH had was to get an individual up to Self-determinism and SURVIVING on the dynamics – and then to pan-determinism by BEING the dynamics, which seems to along with your phrase: “let go of confronting.” Here’s a quote from *Dianetics 55!*:

    “All the ills of Earth come from an obsession to own, control, protect and hide on other Dynamics than Self. The true enlightenment of this world has come from Willingness to BE along any of the Dynamics.

    “One of the things which gives truth to Pan-Determinism is the savageness with which the aberrated attempt to drive an individual away from anything resembling Pan-Determinism. This is simply an obsessive action on the part of people to climb up to Pan-Determinism by force. Pan-Determinism cannot be climbed by force. The ladder to that height is not made of pikes and spears, spankings and police forces. It is made of Understanding, Affinity, Reality and Communication.”

  162. Hi, E. What I get is that it’s the end product of auditing. That quote came from a BC lecture and here’s the context just before:

    “Our next point, then, as we’re looking at this is, is a very simple one, is that you’re trying to get individuals to look directly at things, and their circuitry encourages them not to look at things because it’s normally set up to spare them the trouble of confronting, or to avoid having to confront something, so they confront it on a via.

    “[…] And your methods of getting him there are to walk him up rapidly so he has less and less vias, less and less vias, less and less vias, which means less and less circuits, less and less circuits, less and less barriers – you get the idea? – more and more confidence, more and more assurance. More and more ability to confront, actually, isn’t it?

    “That’s why you don’t have confront on your main list, because it itself is a result and an end product; it itself isn’t a doingness, it’s an ability.”

  163. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip… I am curious if you ever questioned what you believe in? where your beliefs originated from?

  164. Elizabeth Hamre

    M… thanks.. I must have been given a huge dose…:) my favorite activity.

  165. Elizabeth

    I am sorry, but I cannot reconcile the first two sentences in your response.

    In the first sentence you say that “one is not exterior when confronting, because to be exterior one has to have a location.” From his statement I infer that your reality is that when one is confronting he has no location. But in the second statement you say, “when one confronts in that moment one gives up the viewpoint, the consideration that the item one confronts is the self the being.” In this statement you seem to pretty much explain that confronting is being separate from, but isn’t that what exterior is? Or does the concept of exterior to you, always include that when one is exterior he has no location.

    Personally I have no such concept, though I can see how one could come to that conclusion. To me, “exterior” simply means one is not being what one is exterior to, whether he is doing it from a particular point of view or not. In my reality, if you can perceive something then you are exterior to it.

    Or did I just miss something?


  166. It’s not ridicule.

    You want me to define “Scientologist” for you, and that has already been done.

    In fact it’s been done to death.

    You know what a Scientologist is.

    Don’t you?


  167. Well Oracle, I know what you mean.

    There are probably as many Scientologys as people who experienced Scientology. But the one thing that is constant, and is real, is what Hubbard wrote and said about Scientology.

    If you examine that very real record that Hubbard left, you can find the reason behind every abusive thing that any Scientologist has ever done.

    David Miscavige is a walking ball of L Ron Hubbard teachings. All his problems were given to him by Hubbard, and he’s been trying to solve them ever since.

    If there is one guy who has been left holding the bag, it’s David Miscavige. He is trying to make that contradictory mess of a written record “work” on a corporate basis on all comers. And it doesn’t. So he is trying everything he can to make it work and keep it making money, while not getting sued and depositioned, while hiding the people who go crazy from it, and covering his tracks, and fighting off the ever-encircling Enemies to Mankind that Hubbard taught him to see everywhere.

    Really. David Miscavige is spectacle of psycho fireworks, but the Source of all that sparking chaos in Davey’s Mind is the written record that Hubbard made him word clear, false data strip, put in clay, write up OWs to, and totally internalize as the only talisman that he could cling to so he would never go adverse effect of anything ever again.

    He is completely trapped by Scientology. And he is going to end up either in jail or the spin bin, just like Lisa McPherson.

    At least you and I got out of it. And there’s some space between us and it.

    Not so for Davey.

    He’s fucked.


  168. How can a “religion” like Scientology ever be “reformed?” OK, the tactics of the racket known as the Church of Scientology are loathsome. What about the beliefs? You still believe Xenu is imprisoned somewhere?

  169. Oracle, Oracle.
    It just so happens that today a staff member friend sent me a copy of HCOPL 16 April 65. I sent him the PL you just posted and explained the principal involved between the two.

    Thanks, your timing was perfect. You are much needed.

  170. Proverbs 17

    King James Version (KJV)

    17 Better is a dry morsel, and quietness therewith, than an house full of sacrifices with strife.

    2 A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causeth shame, and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren.

    3 The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the Lord trieth the hearts.

    4 A wicked doer giveth heed to false lips; and a liar giveth ear to a naughty tongue.

    5 Whoso mocketh the poor reproacheth his Maker: and he that is glad at calamities shall not be unpunished.

    6 Children’s children are the crown of old men; and the glory of children are their fathers.

    7 Excellent speech becometh not a fool: much less do lying lips a prince.

    8 A gift is as a precious stone in the eyes of him that hath it: whithersoever it turneth, it prospereth.

    9 He that covereth a transgression seeketh love; but he that repeateth a matter separateth very friends.

    10 A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool.

    11 An evil man seeketh only rebellion: therefore a cruel messenger shall be sent against him.

    12 Let a bear robbed of her whelps meet a man, rather than a fool in his folly.

    13 Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house.

    14 The beginning of strife is as when one letteth out water: therefore leave off contention, before it be meddled with.

    15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.

    16 Wherefore is there a price in the hand of a fool to get wisdom, seeing he hath no heart to it?

    17 A friend loveth at all times, and a brother is born for adversity.

    18 A man void of understanding striketh hands, and becometh surety in the presence of his friend.

    19 He loveth transgression that loveth strife: and he that exalteth his gate seeketh destruction.

    20 He that hath a froward heart findeth no good: and he that hath a perverse tongue falleth into mischief.

    21 He that begetteth a fool doeth it to his sorrow: and the father of a fool hath no joy.

    22 A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

    23 A wicked man taketh a gift out of the bosom to pervert the ways of judgment.

    24 Wisdom is before him that hath understanding; but the eyes of a fool are in the ends of the earth.

    25 A foolish son is a grief to his father, and bitterness to her that bare him.

    26 Also to punish the just is not good, nor to strike princes for equity.

    27 He that hath knowledge spareth his words: and a man of understanding is of an excellent spirit.

    28 Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

  171. Elizabeth Hamre

    Eric, “if you perceive something then you are exterior to it” only if you are looking with the eyes. When one preserves in that moment one experiences, in moment of experience one becomes one with the experienced item… in confrontation one needs to become one with the confronted item in order to understand everything about its existence, why it was created in the first place.. but in fact the theta- spirits do not move but recreates the experience and when that happens that comes the cog. the realization=understanding and in that moment the spirit let go.. gives up that experience. my reality.

  172. Elizabeth Hamre

    Dio… well done for memorising part of a book.

  173. Elizabeth Hamre

    Viva for that answer you need to search your own universe.. because you know the answer…

  174. christianscientology

    Hi Marty

    If THETA is a scientific definition for GOD then I would agree with you, which validates that it is “the religion of religions”.


  175. christianscientology

    Hi Letting go

    I think you are right. There is a saying amongst Christians “If you don’t give GOD the glory the devil will take it”. The basic outness is the wrong assignment of SOURCE.


  176. christianscientology

    Hi FOTF2012

    ETERNITY and EVERLASTING are two distinctly different concepts. ETERNITY has no beginning and no end. EVERLASTING has a beginning and no end.

    Eternity is TIME LESS, EVERLASTING IS ROOTED IN time. If time is the “basic lie” then EVERLASTING has no meaning IN TRUTH.


  177. christianscientology

    Hi Hadley

    I was at St. Hill in the late ‘60’s’. I arrived shortly after the first “Clear” was announced – JOHN MACMASTERS. Do you live in England?


  178. Elizabeth

    OK. I see that we have quite different concepts regarding both “being exterior” and “confronting”.

    Thank you for presenting your viewpoint.

    Eric S

  179. Elizabeth Hamre

    Salaam alaikum .

  180. Hi yes I do and I sent y a email

  181. christianscientology

    Hi Elizabeth

    It is not really a belief that I believe in, it is an experience. 35 years ago I had an experience and as a result of that experience my viewpoint radically changed.

    I have often likened it to meeting with some extra-terrestrials and being taken for a ride in a U.F.O. Afterwards it would not be a BELIEF in extra-terrestrials but more of a knowingness as a result of an experience.

    It is a bit like what happens in auditing when I reach the E.P. on a process I have an experience and out of that experience comes a knowingness. This is similar but in ANOTHER DIMENTION, so it becomes a LIFE CHANGING EXPERIENCE.

    It happened to me while lying in bed one night agonising over my involvement with The Church of Scientology. I had attested I would never discuss Level V with anyone who had not received Level V, and yet I desperately needed to talk to someone who was not a Scientologist but could still evaluate my queries about what this thing that was supposed to have happened to me – GOING FROM HOMOSAPIAN to HOMO NOVIS. But because I had attested I would not discuss it and I was expelled from the Church I was “between a rock and a hard place” and that is when it happened. In many ways it is a NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCE. If you Google NDE you will find many accounts similar to the one I had. It does seem they are “tailor made” to each person’s personal reality but nevertheless have a similarity that transcends the differences. Mine can be summed up in JESUS IS ALIVE TODAY!


  182. christianscientology

    Hi Marildi

    I love the last sentence in your post where you quote Ron “The ladder to the heights is not made of pikes and spears, spankings and police forces. It is made of Understanding, Affinity, Reality and Communication”. How lovely is that!

    It reminds me of our family motto WILLING EFFECT IS TOTAL CAUSE.


  183. Nicely put about LRH

  184. Pip,

    Good post.


  185. Elizabeth Hamre

    Thanks PIP.. for letting me know how you see your universe, what you have created, and to whom you have assigned the responsibility, the power and the causativeness, Through who’s reality you live your life.. But I do believe that you have had that experience.. I don’t doubt it for one second. But I find it interesting why you have not questioned that experience.. That is not my reality.. since to have total understanding one must find the answers why that incident was created in the first place. 🙂

  186. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip I re-read your post and just want to thank you again for sharing.. “) PS;; the track I littered with traps of near death and death experiences. Every one of them is there to make one believe that one will become nothing without the body…. therefor one must get one in order to survive and have a life.. beautiful sentiment.. 🙂 great trap and it still works! 🙂

  187. christianscientology

    Hi Elizabeth

    I am not sure we are talking about the same thing. In NDE’s invariably there is a great feeling of BEING LOVED, in fact, the idea of having a body pales into insignificance during one of these experiences.

  188. christianscientology

    Elizabeth, I don’t know whether you have ever “fallen in love” but if you have you will be aware that the last thing you are inclined to do is to analyse it that seems to be the job of one’s friends. No! “falling in love” just needs to be enjoyed.

  189. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip.. ”“falling in love” just needs to be enjoyed.”” 🙂 good one… Here we go: we have different realities and we handle act upon incoming things accordingly to our reality. what is.

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