Scientology, Science and Squirreling

But for the first and last paragraphs, included for the purpose of establishing context, the following is a new passage added to venture three of a course on graduating from Scientology.

The further Scientologists proceed in their study, the more they are precluded from comparing their learning to any other discipline.  They are trained to treat any independent, evolved learning about the mind and spirit with disdain. The greater the degree of arrogant certainty with which the Scientologist identifies and authoritatively rejects incursion of data originated by someone other than Ron, is the degree to which an individual is considered valuable and is validated and promoted within the ranks of Scientology.  There is no more important standard of credibility within Scientology than this.

I began the search that lead to this course by attempting to do what L. Ron Hubbard proclaimed Scientology sought to do.  That is to reconcile science with spirit.  Quite evidently somewhere along the line Scientology divorced itself entirely from science and became a full-fledged religious belief system.   My journey gave me a much deeper appreciation for where and how that departure came about – some of which has already been summarized in books and blog essays.

For decades I was of the belief that there was good reason for Hubbard becoming so defensive of his creation.  After all, I had been thoroughly indoctrinated in Hubbard’s version of the war that the medical monopoly and psychiatry declared and waged against him.  Even as late as 2013 (Memoirs)  I was defending Hubbard on that basis.  But, in researching deeper into the philosophical seeds from which Dianetics and Scientology sprang I came to doubt the primary cause of Hubbard’s travails.

There are ample references in Hubbard issues and lectures to Dr. Joseph Winter as the original ‘squirrel.’  I became convinced of the fitness of that sobriquet given Hubbard’s oft-expressed revulsion for Winters.  That condemnation included Hubbard gloating over the fact of Winter’s death many years after he had departed the original Dianetics foundations.  Incidentally, his was not the only death Hubbard celebrated. He similarly implied another untimely death, that of John F. Kennedy, was somehow proof of divine retribution being in store for those who defy Hubbard and his ideas (even though Hubbard had not one shred of evidence that Kennedy even knew of Hubbard and Scientology, let alone opposed them).

After twenty years of directing attacks against squirrels, then another five fending off attacks against me and my wife for my purveying allegedly heretical views, I decided to read the book that the original granddaddy of squirrels had written.  That is, Winter’s 1951 publication Dianetics: A Doctor’s Report.  Hubbard characterized it as one of the first  American Medical Association and American Psychiatric Association backed assaults on mankind’s only hope.

I found Winter’s book to reflect much the same advice I suggested in What Is Wrong With Scientology?   From well before the publication of Dianetics Winter beseeched Hubbard to integrate, evolve and thus attain the ability to transcend.  A Doctor’s Report is not an attack on Dianetics.  Instead, the book is one of the most rational and authoritative endorsements of Dianetics ever published.  Winter’s scholarly validation of Hubbard’s ideas and general approach were eschewed wholesale by Hubbard because apparently the latter could not tolerate even polite, respectful, and wise counsel.  What apparently rankled Hubbard was Winter’s lament that Hubbard violently rejected Winter’s advices for making Dianetics less absolutist, bombastic, and individuated from related fields.   Winter made recommendations for making Dianetics more effective and potentially more capable of dissemination.   Winter’s book serves as the finest advice Hubbard could have received in 1949 when the two first met, or at any subsequent time up until the latter’s death. 

Winter noted that Hubbard’s invented, eminently disprovable claims of 100% invariable success were put in writing by Ron a year before he had even published the first handbook on the subject:

‘A very exhaustive research has located no exception to any axiom and broad application to types has discovered no exception to treatment technique – anything surrenders.’   – 1949 letter from Hubbard to Winter 

Ultimately Winter discovered no such research existed beyond Hubbard’s claims of one-hundred percent success. Hubbard originally approached Winter hoping to use him to infiltrate Dianetics into the medical/psychiatric field.  Winter attempted to do so.  He reported initial receptivity:

‘The professional people evidenced an interest in the philosophy of dianetics; their interest was repelled, however, by the manner of presentation of the subject, especially the unwarranted implication that it was necessary to repudiate one’s previous beliefs before accepting dianetics.’

In this short passage from A Doctor’s Report Winter accurately summed up what was wrong with Dianetics in 1950 and what remains wrong with Scientology to this day:

‘Insofar as the dangers of dianetic therapy are concerned, they are no greater than those inherent in many other therapies; in my opinion, the effectiveness of dianetics far outweighs its possible dangers. However, there is one danger which lurks in all forms of healing, no matter whether the efforts are directed at the psyche or the soma:  we should beware of overenthusiasm, especially when the enthusiast is unskilled and uncritical.  If one regards any hypothesis as a perfect, closed system, one which gives an invariably correct answer to every question, he is asking for trouble.  A persistent scientific skepticism and an ethical regard for the rights of one’s patients must be maintained in the practice of dianetics as it should be in any other form of therapy; in the absence of that attitude any therapeutic method is apt to be dangerous.’

As anyone knows who has engaged in Scientology in the decades since, no skepticism (scientific or otherwise) is permitted, and no rights are afforded the participants (not even its highly touted unconditional right to refund for bad results).  The two dangers Winter noted were inherent in all forms of healing have been systematically reinforced in Dianetics and Scientology for six and one half decades, while Hubbard’s designated bogeymen the psychs (psychiatrists, psychologists and psychotherapists) -have all that while been evolving – however haltingly and slightly – on both scores. Ironically, that evolution has been prodded by Scientologists while their ‘science’ continues to degrade for lack of evolution on either count.

Winter goes on to chronicle how the absolute prohibition against putting Dianetics to any objective test was fully in force from the earliest days, a policy that sealed the fate of Hubbard’s creation becoming a system grounded not in science but instead upon assiduously policed religious belief.

The result is that today to Scientologists, their discipline reigns supreme in all respects irrespective of any evidence to the contrary.  If another idea conflicts with Scientology it is energetically rejected and discredited, with no inspection or test for worth.  The most common method of discrediting is done by assignment of guilt by association to its originator.  The most common and convenient association ‘found’ by the Scientologist to discredit such ideas is some link, real or imagined, to psychiatry (actually ‘psychs’, which includes psychologists, psychotherapists or any other established mental practitioners).


297 responses to “Scientology, Science and Squirreling

  1. Wow. Impressive evaluation Marty.

  2. In a sane, free philosophy, “raw meat” would be asked to study Winter’s book right along with DMSMH, and to be able to freely discuss and debate the differing views. But if that could have happened, Scientology would not be the social isolate / exploitative cult that it has become.

    I have not read Winter’s books, but some of his views seem close to mine. Most specifically, that if there is “meat” to auditing — and I believe from experience there is — that “meat” will stand up to rigorous scientific inquiry. And then with objective evaluation, the field could bloom.

    As things stand, Scientology is suppressed by only one force: itself.

  3. As Ron’s effectiveness declined in relation to his necessity to resolve his own case, so will Dave’s.

  4. Good grief, Marty. How is Scientology supposed to flourish as “the only hope for mankind” if you keep shining the spotlight of rationality on it?

  5. Wow. Thanks, Marty.

    This really clearly states something I’ve had a partial understanding of and worked with, but hadn’t come to such a clear statement of.

    Hubbard’s arrogance was so easy to see, but once you’ve swallowed the hook the arrogance becomes a virtue to be emulated rather than something to be looked askance at.

  6. Good post.

  7. A few blog entries back, “The Scientology Inquisition”, Marty used a word I had to look up. Monotheistic.

    Because of understanding the truth in his comment, I began to see something I had not noticed before. I would say, I thought, “That is so true. And why?”

    I did a little survey about whether people really thought Scientology was a Church or religion or if people thought Hubbard was a God.

    This realization that I had had such a blind spot myself, about people I thought I knew, and I was so far away from everyone else, actually made me a little physically sick to be honest.

    Not a problem, I am packing my suitcase and heading off for some auditing. Because I am devastated about this on some level. Mainly my own blindness if I were to guess. And I need to have some conversations about it. With someone who believes me.

    I am lucky to know someone like that.

    I have lost my voice about Scientology or my ideas about it. Or about other people’s voices and ideas about it. Right now I feel like it is something I can not discuss because, my voice really doesn’t matter to a lot of people and has no relevance in their world.

    So, I will not be debating about this any more or adding my 2 cents. Not about Scientology or Hubbard or the tech or my theories or experiences. About that, I am in some kind of state of shock. Not about me, or doubts about my own life or experiences. That is solid. I don’t tend to invalidate myself or my life. Why would I? But I have had a blind spot and I tend to care about other people just as much, if not more, than myself.

    The best thing I can say I have taken from my walk through these halls of Scientology, would not be certs or status or Identity. It would be you people. That I came to love. I learned to love. If I have been involved with a losing game, it is because I loved people. I am willing to pay for that, willingly.

    So, that aside and that is all that belongs here. I am still curious about the current social conditions that effect all of us.

    I have in the past and now, have had a certain romance with conditions as I have had to understand these things to survive. So being, there is some validity in knowing the future because current conditions can tell you a lot about the future.

    There are fundamental common sense issues about moving away from a power position. That does not take a rocket scientist to understand. Our own Presidents are kept under security because these power positions are fragile on some level and get overlooked. Usually.

    I understand David scooped up a former power terminal in the field of justice in Texas.

    And I also understand that person has moved off of a position of power having no guidance as to how to delicately move off a position of power.

    From where I am viewing, Marty is the power and is in a power condition that is limitless. And it is not because he has bad intentions. That comes from personal integrity.

    It is not so easy to transfer peace of mind. I have come to think it may impossible to transfer perceptions, as much as some humans really try. I am thinking this is an unattainable goal. And I have had unattainable goals.

  8. Nice piece of writting. A desparately needed perspective. A breath of fresh air.
    Thank you

  9. “Right now I feel like it is something I cannot discuss because, my voice really doesn’t matter to a lot of people and has no relevance in their world.”

    T.O., the fact that your experience has been unique is the precise reason you have a unique perspective to contribute to this ongoing, mujltiple-viewpoint conversation. I know I’m not the only one who has appreciated and benefited from your viewpoints at one time or another and in one way or another, depending on the individual. So your voice does matter!

  10. I think LRH was ahead of the game, he knew conventional science was rigidly controlled by the powers that be and that they did not want Dianetics being freely available to the public .

  11. Early in my study of Scientology I had the idea that one reason for me not very well progressing in Scientology would be (or the only reason maybe) that I do not believe in Scientology. I compared it to others that entered the show together with me and some of them made good progress up the bridge or in the organization as staff. I concluded that those that made progress are Scientology believers. They had no doubts or did not show any. But I considered myself to be more intelligent and aware of my environment and thus being not able to believe something. Even before Scientology I doubted anything. Christianity, physics, math, myself… I always had to think about subjects myself. But that was the reason I could not integrate. So I considered it to be a negative point of my existence. Cause I am then out of communication. So I had been out of communication with the majority of Scientologists.
    After Scientology I did have a look on other groups or “sciences”. Every one of them had a believe part or system integrated. Even modern medicine. It is proven that the so called placebo effect is factual. But if you know that you take a placebo then it does not work. As you do not believe in the workability of that pill. (you know it is nothing in that pill so you know it does not work and thus it does not) So many schools of healing or betterment use this placebo believe system. As it is to some degree workable.
    I think many Scientologists know that too. But they refuse to un believe as then Scientology quits to work and therefore they would loose all their gains. Maybe it is true. If you did take a placebo and then after it did heal you you are told it had been a placebo maybe the sickness turns on again. Who knows.
    But on the other hand there are methods and science or whatever that work without believe. Electronics for example. Your TV does not care if you believe something. If it is broken then you need someone educated in electronics that finds out the defective part and replaces it.
    Within Scientology I found out that procedures do work without believe in it. I made tests to find out of it works or not by just applying the information according my understanding.
    This is another important point “according my understanding”. As many stuff of Scientology I cannot grasp. For example “line plot” GPM auditing. Sounds interesting but no understanding on my side.
    As far as my understanding goes I would say that the concept of believe (placebo effect) is a trap. A good trap. It seems to work. It is a proven fact. If I would claim that believe does not work then you can throw at me thousands of examples that it did work. In any field. But in fact this is illusion. The ingredient that made believe work is not the believe itself but you. If you believe that you can make the cup fly and the cup does not lift then it is not because you did not believe strong enough but that you are not able to make it fly.
    So, believe is only workable if you yourself are able to do or accomplish what you believe you can do or accomplish. This is the trick applied.

  12. Martin Padfield


  13. Was ahead for a moment in time and fell behind as time progressed,being rigidly controlling himself;becoming himself a power to be within the set up of Scientology as it transmuted from a philosophy into a transfixed religion.

  14. If I wrote a book it wouldn’t matter. Through this blog so many truths have come to pass. Celebrities I knew, and slept with, (go on Dave, publish my P.C, folders), regarded as Gods by others, I came to see as narcissists. With disorders.

    This narcissism is like a virus. A huge GPM. If a person doesn’t think they are the greatest, they can not rise up. When they do, they are stuck in a handicap where they are of no benefit to others because they have learned to only care about themselves. . It is a social GPM I can’t explain very well.

    All I have really been saying for all of the time I have reached out to others on the Internet is, I don’t need someone else to hurt me inside.

    Love made me do foolish things.

  15. With all the money given to research of the most outlandish
    hypotheses you would think that by now someone would have
    done some research on the basic dianetics theories. Back In
    the 70’s I read about some surgeons being quiet during
    operations as it was discovered the brain picks up what is said
    when sedated. Such “theories” could have been put to some
    type of tests. Of course I would not want to be the person being
    tested. Maybe someone who wholesale believes LRH was a
    total charlatan would volunteer.

    Thanks Marty for all your excellent work.

  16. DM having scooped up a retired judge in Texas
    is somehow again going to end up in another
    foot bullet.
    The length with which DM is stretching his being
    right will in the end recoil that much more. Not only
    on himself but on Scientology and ALL its adherents.

    TO, please, I do like your input.

  17. Marty, I really appreciate this post! Thank you. As I was reading it I experienced an ever so subtle shift in perspective and instantly felt a sense of relief. Can’t say exactly what the perspective was but it obviously needed to be shifted.

  18. I cannot speak for others, but this is the Internet. I put my view out in the hope that it will help someone. My work is similar – things arrive from the void and I process them and return them to the void, often never knowing how they were received. But my clients do come back for more, so my work can’t be all that bad in a competitive market.

    I have always thought of you as someone writing from a totally different view of the world, and it’s been a refreshing view I’ve always been grateful for, even if I haven’t always agreed. I am grateful for what you share because you have taught me a completely different way to look at a situation. Looking for the underlying purpose, for example. That’s been a real help on my journey out of a fixed way of looking at the world into many ways of seeing the world, none of which are necessarily the only truth. So you’ve helped me grow as a person, as have several others here. Sometimes I wish I had your viewpoint in life, and your experience, but I’m beginning to realise I need to have my own and that it, too, has merit.

    I hope you come back and share the magic from time to time. At the moment I am teetering between living in a magical world and living in a completely ordinary one, and am not sure which can really exist. The funny thing is, I think I’ll end up living in both. Maybe we all do.

  19. Yes, I second that.
    Oracle, I think you are one of the most honest and valid voices on this blog. Many a time you have been able to voice something, with such clarity and vigour that you’ve just crystalized a half-formed thought that was banging about in my mind.
    I think you probably don’t need or want the acknowledgment but that’s exactly why you should get it.
    Go well and thank you.

  20. Marty you now speak just of Scientologists. Once you spoke about Independents. Then, the Independents were divided into transcendentalists and radicals. Now, it’s just the Scientologists as one lump category.

    If you are dealing with the subject you should take into account the Indies too, a name you helped establish for Freezoners or independent Scientologists who had already left, and many of them many years before you even. It’s just a name but helps make some differentiation between the two categories.

    So, my question is how does this article and viewpoint apply to Indies? Are Indies in your viewpoint another breed of cat than the “Scientologist” or do you now tend to identify those two?

    So how would the first paragraph of your writing apply to Indies and how do you know it’s true for them if you think it applies to them too?

    “The further Scientologists proceed in their study, the more they are precluded from comparing their learning to any other discipline”.

    And one other thing, and I hope you will publish this because it is important and it was the demise of the church. You said:

    “The greater the degree of arrogant certainty with which the Scientologist identifies and authoritatively rejects incursion of data originated by someone other than Ron, is the degree to which an individual is considered valuable and is validated and promoted within the ranks of Scientology. There is no more important standard of credibility within Scientology than this.”

    That’s not true at all. Maybe you wanted to say “The greater the degree of arrogant certainty with which the Scientologist identifies and authoritatively rejects incursion of data originated by someone other than … David, is the degree to which an individual is considered valuable and is validated and promoted within the ranks of Scientology. There is no more important standard of credibility within Scientology than this” because I am personally aware of my situation where data not originated by Ron but by David were more important. That was once called Standard Scientology in the church. And tampering with it was the church’s demise. Now it exists in the field and is upheld by Indies.

    But what am I talking about here if we now can’t even differentiate between those really radicals, those with MUs and overts, those who are really suppressive and suppress the subject and its use, and those who just wanted to use Scientology to help others?

  21. Oracle I wish you well in your upcoming conversations, I am sure that will work out quite well.

    I can’t say I am sure of all of what you trying to communicate here but I want you to know that what you have had to say over the last few years has generally been brilliant. Your voice is quite unique and it would be easy for you to underestimate your reach into reader’s hearts. I know that I would miss your reflections and thoughts.

    Your combination of humor, insouciance and keeping it real has been a kind of healing solution for the mental pain and adjustment that I had to pass through over the past twenty some months. I think the church heard you as well or they would not have sent folks out to try and hush you.

    To tell you the truth, I wish you had a social column in national newspapers (Yes your that good!) in which you simply commented on social issues, current events and general happenings going on all around us. I even thought a good name for it would be, “Oracle’s Outlet”. LOL…what do you think? Your audience is not nearly as big as it could or should be. Your voice is particularly strong when you get going in a direction you care or are invested in. I wish I could turn a sentence in the way that you do.

    I’ll be thinking of you…….

  22. I don’t mean to seem altruistic. Putting my view out probably helps me most of all.

  23. Duplication is the biggest fear of “YOU”!!

  24. Oracle,
    For whatever my comment is worth to you,(sorry for being too intense and rude with you).
    You may want to let go of the Monotheistic metaphor that Marty used for the moment, and study what Hubbard had to say about Universes and his Games Theory in the PDC and other tapes.
    It is an impressive tool applicable to about everything you get yourself into.
    That is the technical explanation for the observations that Marty made about Hubbard being the God of the Scientology Universe he created.
    Good luck with your auditing.

  25. Wow, Marty. I’m impressed. There you are in this huge legal battle and yet you find the time and energy to continue your spiritual quest. Good for you and good for us!

    So Winter said in 1950 what I concluded in my spiritual quest some years ago: Scientology/LRH promises much more than it/he can deliver which is really too bad because what it can deliver is quite remarkable.

  26. With all due respect to Winter and yourself and the obviously rational observations made, it is my opinion that if LRH had heeded Winter’s advice and stuck to it, that neither he nor his movement would have ever exceeded the morass-laden mind-set of the Better Business Bureau, the AMA and the APA. Ewen Duncan Cameron, the head of the APA, was in full swing with MK-ULTRA at that time and the AMA has had its own agenda. A more “scientifically acceptable'” Dianetics would have gone nowhere, and mostly because it had no horsepower. LRH was all about horsepower, postulates and magick. Earth culture is much more amenable to magick than it is to science anyways.

  27. If love, support and admiration can be sent in an invisible fashion, across time and space, then I send it to you Oracle. You are a force of nature!

  28. Marty stated: “Quite evidently somewhere along the line Scientology divorced itself entirely from science and became a full-fledged religious belief system.”

    The negative gut reaction that Scientologists may have to Marty’s characterization of Scientology as a monotheistic religion is understandable.

    If you present a Christian or a Muslim with the fact that the Mesoamerican Mayan and Aztec religions were constructed EXACTLY like the great western religions, they too will be appalled.

    They will be deeply offended and shocked that anybody will dare to compare the repugnant bloody human sacrifices and their cannibalistic ceremonies with the liturgy of the western churches.

    How can anybody suggest such a thing? And nevertheless they are all Messianic religions, internally built pretty much out of the SAME BLUEPRINT.

    It is NOT the outward form and the kind of symbolic reenactment that makes a religion, but it’s the fact that they are designed similarly with a core belief system ingrained in his scriptures.

    As far as I can tell the main elements that makes a Religion are:

    1) A founder who is presented as an avatar, prophet, or seer, who has special insight into the spiritual world or the beyond.

    2) A structured and articulated belief system.

    3) A central Myth, which explains and symbolizes the Founder’s insights and its core belief system.

    4) A priesthood in training, who take over when its founder departs.

    5) An elaborate internal defense system, to prevent the analytical evaluation of its Founder, Core Myth and Belief System.

    No Religion can withstand a through analytical evaluation, they all crumble upon close scrutiny.
    That is precisely why they go to great lengths to prevent its membership from analytical evaluation and open debate about their tenets.

    A religious belief systems, gets under people skins, WITHOUT, their analytical evaluation, that is why they are so effective, and as Marty pointed out, it is observable by the behavior of its members.

  29. Marcy Pearlman Sorensen

    Marty, It has been, and continues to be interesting, enlightening, and helpful to follow your journey, post, COS, here on this blog.
    I believe that we who are recovering from our experiences in the “Church” are looking and striving for some kind of balance in our practical and spiritual lives. There is/was no room or tolerance for shades of gray in Scientology. It’s an “all or nothing” mindset. That has been the biggest obstacle, so far, in my own journey out of COS.
    I thank you for shedding some much needed light on so many of these mind traps.
    I am fascinated to know how many layers are still there to be unraveled.
    Once over the initial shock of being “out” it starts to become pretty interesting.

  30. Peter Moon wrote:

    Earth culture is much more amenable to magick than it is to science anyways.

    Then why is the Church of Scientology collapsing today?

    If you say it is because the “SP” David Miscavige is running it, then why didn’t Scientology handle David Miscavige?

    If you say that it is because Scientologists were too cowed to do anything about him, then why didn’t Scientology make Scientologists strong enough to stand up to David Miscavige?

    If you say that it is because the tech was not applied, then with all the study tech, and Qual corrections, and other tech in Scientology that is designed to get the tech applied, why didn’t all that work to get the tech applied?

    If you say it is because Scientology is too advanced, and earth people are too stupid, criminal, and backwards to assimilate straight Scientology, then wasn’t Hubbard an Earth person?

    There’s something off in your cognitive algorithms, Peter. And it has to do with the very questioning process that Dr. Winter was proposing that would have made Scientology stronger, and which you are dismissing.

    If something can not stand up to questioning and scrutiny, then it can not survive. Just as Scientology is collapsing now, it is collapsing under the weight of questioning. Hubbard’s resistance to that questioning process only let Scientology harm more people as the years rolled on.

    All these many years later, it is clear that Dr. Winter was right.

    And L Ron Hubbard was wrong.


  31. I think the persons he got the Ideas from were indeed no charlatans

  32. Can you say: Meta-Psychology


    “I didn’t think he had ever done much research except for reading this book on psychology. He read a German journal in which an engram was mentioned in 1916-17, he knew that someone had written about an engram. Joseph Wolpie came up with idea that repetition was an effective way of reducing tension on heavily charged incident. Desensitisation was what Ron was doing in Dianetics without knowing he was doing it. I think he stumbled across the material by accident and intuition.

    He wasn’t widely read – he made no bones about it. He had a wild imagination, he was tremendously creative person.

    My feeling was that he got a medical discharge from the Navy and I think it was because they knew he was crazy. I think they tried to give him electric shock in the hospital because he had very strong feelings against that treatment and I felt it had a personal reference. He must have been recognised at one time as a disturbed individual.

    I think he probably made up a lot of the case histories in the first Dianetics book. He was not academic and never did any research. “

  34. People can be independent from the church. But not independent from some limiting dogma: Scientologists.

  35. Thank you Peter Moon. A great point. LRH said: “never try to bring your dissemination level up to your production level, but bring your production level up to your dissemination level”. In other words, in my opinion, he wanted to stress how vastly you should and can affect things and people. How broadly. LRH was a good guy. Those who just see his flaws can’t see that the guy put on this Prison Planet a system where beings can at least have some… some exteriorisation. At least…. And too easily forget as the demented souls they are. Oh, yes I have heard a lot of invalidations for being Standard or actually defending Standard Tech. What was wrong with it? Miscavige it made a Russian salad out of it and applied what he wanted. Was the Standard? No. And then he applied harsh Ethics whereas he couldn’t raise the Tone Level of one individual. He was all about fear. Is that Standard? Noooo…. What was Standard about Miscavige. Just a facade of “Standardness”. He destroyed the whole Admin and Ethics system and people don’t want to hear about it anymore. He implanted them with Reverse Scientology.

    Was Dianetics flawless? By no means? Then why defend it? I am not defending it here. I would defend it to a Raw Public so he can experience it and audit and be audited. There are things in Dianetics which later proved to be not true or right. Like the notion that it was the words in an engram that caused all the aberration. Whereas it was the charge in the engram. Big, big difference. How many Scientologists know that? Even Tom Cruise arranged a silent birth for his wife. That’s not to say that everybody should be talking around a person who has passed out but that is not the MAJOR source of aberration. It’s the charge that makes an engram cause the aberration. Now, if you invalidate the whole of Dianetics you just bring your dissemination down… and everybody becomes confused. Let the person read and study upper level data and understand it. Otherwise you just stop them right there. LRH was smart and did what he did because he knew he couldn’t create more bad than create good. And more good he did.

    In any case I like the magic viewpoint. Yes, that was LRH. He was about horsepower. Thank you for putting it in that way.

  36. T.O.: “All I have really been saying for all of the time I have reached out to others on the Internet is, I don’t need someone else to hurt me inside. Love made me do foolish things.”

    And what you have been saying has communicated. Here’s an acknowledgement :

    “In the MEST universe we are confronted with paradoxes upon paradoxes where behavior is concerned, for behavior in the MEST universe is regulated by stimulus-response and not by analytical thought or reason. The MEST universe demands of us complete and utter obedience and agreement on the penalty of extermination, yet when one has agreed entirely with the MEST universe he finds himself unable to perceive it with clarity.

    “In one’s own universe, on the other hand, honesty, ethics, happiness, good behavior, justice, all become possible.

    “It is one of the operations of the MEST universe that it is a jealous universe and those who are thoroughly imbued with the principles of the MEST universe have even as their best efforts the goal of eradicating one’s own universe. A control operation begins early in the life of almost every man, whereby his imagination is condemned. His own universe is not imaginary, but it may be said to be so and if his imagination is condemned, then he loses his ability to garnish the hardness and brutality of the MEST universe with hopes and dreams. When he loses this he becomes a slave of the MEST universe, and as a slave he perishes.

    “His road to immortality lies, then, in another direction than in the complete subservient agreement with the MEST universe and the handling and conversion of its forces. This is a matter which has been subjected continuously to test and it is intensely surprising to people to discover that the rehabilitation of their creative ability, their own space, their own images, rehabilitates as well their ability to confront the MEST universe with a strong and ethical face.” (Scn 8-8008)

  37. “Scientology/LRH promises much more than it/he can deliver which is really too bad because what it can deliver is quite remarkable.”

    I’d say it’s not “too bad” if one is willing and able to separate the two. It’s as simple as that.

  38. Peter: “LRH was all about horsepower, postulates and magick. Earth culture is much more amenable to magick than it is to science anyways.”

    Well said. It seems to me that it was LRH’s own postulate that overrode his personal flaws, to an amazing degree. And there may very well have been “a method to his madness” in not heeding Winter’s advice.

  39. Mary Rathernotsay

    Thank you, Marty.
    Excellent article.

  40. He onley sprinkled fairy dust into your eyes.

    The magical thinking was all you.

  41. You seem to believe he got ALL his ideas from other people. What is the basis for that contention?

  42. Another very interesting book about the early days of Dianetics (and its troubles) is Helen O’Brien’s “Dianetics in Limbo”.

  43. You have always been one of my favorite “voices”, perhaps
    my favorite, for many years.

    You know this is true 🙂

  44. Thank you Marty and The Oracle. I also have loved reading the Oracle’s cogent comments and hope you will come back some time. Marty, please work on your next book and do it in safety. I don’t want DM getting desperate and trying to put a hit out on you for speaking out. Pull out all the stops and let the world know where the bodies are hidden and all the stuff that should be known. This next book needs to come out even more than the ones that came before. Good luck on it!

  45. Once again, Theo, you make a strong case for your viewpoint.

    And in English, no less! :>

    Questioning Dn and Scn does not seem as threatening to you as it was to LRH. Why do you think that was?

    It can’t be because you are Greek, and so was Plato, Socrates and Aristotle, can it?

    Was it those three guys who taught you the value of questioning things?

    Why do you think LRH never learned their lessons on the value of questioning?


  46. How would you know, CD?

  47. The last peal of the Onion that is the body of knowledge that encompasses Scientology: The dress down of Book 1 (Dianetics)

    But the original Idea is that he build upon Freud who had onley diagnoses to offer Hubbard came with a procces to remedy.

  48. Hmm. So basically, Ron third-partied Winter. Shame on Ron.

    It never ceases to amaze me that many of the solutions to Scientology’s problems (and Ron’s) could have been solved by Scientology.

  49. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    I came to the same conclusions as Dr. Winter.
    I needed about 35 Years years for it, while he realized it after very short time.

  50. “Put on beans and rice and that included the children”

  51. Elizabeth Hamre

    Aelous… right… Spiritual Path has nothing to do with scientology. Spiritual beliefs cannot be expressed in forms, objects of any kind. Spiritual is what one beliefs in, which is only reality for self. Scientology has provided tools but not the reality what one can achieve by using those tools.

  52. “Pursuit of knowledge becomes scholasticism when divorced from the actual needs of men and life”
    “Scholasticism philosophy moved from reason into faith and dogmas of uncriticized assumptions and pre-ordained conclusions” Bacon

    “Philosophy is an hypothetical interpretation of the unknown or the inexactly unknown which leads to an analytical description, the present actuality, it narrows the process of things as they are and this gives us science”

    Your above presentation Marty, for me, is superb.

    The moment you give to another the power and authority to think for yourself you become the slave of that person. This is why analyzing, comparing, studying and living facts becomes one’s choice in order to live sanely and with freedom to conclude and act as one deems is best.

  53. Mirildi, in reading Winter’s advice, what could be the benefit to Hubbard in not heading it?

    Maybe you could list his, Winter’s, observations along with Marty’s and give us a insight to your view.

    What method for example could Ron have been using in eschewing the research he told us he did.

    What would be a method that would justify that lack of research and his false statement of doing research?

  54. Elizabeth Hamre

    Oracle… “It is not so easy to transfer peace of mind. I have come to think it may impossible to transfer perceptions, as much as some humans really try. I am thinking this is an unattainable goal. And I have had unattainable goals.””
    I do have answers I know these are in form of cognitions, but it is possible to transfer perceptions.. in fact it is easy and you are doing that but there is a reason you don’t realise- see that you do. . if you care to communicate

  55. Elizabeth Hamre

    Oracle… your item in this moment is what? being defeated? Having loss on something? Giving up for some reason? there are few dozen other reasons-considerations you can handle in session when piking up those magical cans.
    I learned in my 40 years of confronting, that the first reason was the most charged [you know this too] and that is the wall I run into head on and was stopped by and I wanted to give up… Hehehe.. no bloody consideration of mine or what I agreed to could stop me… After all, it was my beliefs that made those walls stand solid. Have grand session! Elizabeth

  56. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian… LIMITING ? only self can limit self.. which are the beliefs that self hold so dear to heart and within that limitation is how the self seeing the realities of others. [ in fact he never perceive others reality but what self [say -consider that belongs to others, it is theirs] Self.. fixes the condition in which dares to operate.

  57. Elizabeth Hamre

    jettero….. right you are 🙂

  58. Because you have a wonderfull mind as a human being, We human beings are proned to see the best in things we admire,

    I am not a stranger to that

  59. Mary Rathernotsay

    I wish that you wouldn”t go, Oracle.
    I always looked forward to your voice.
    If you go you will be missed.
    Perhaps you might feel differently down the road…

  60. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian… not heading advice usually happens when one cant change, cant give up ones own reality. I have to be right at all cost. Ego.. bank is speaking loud a clear.

  61. Elizabeth Hamre

    Oracle… I went out into the garden where the first crocuses opened up and they showing off their magnificence. ! I was thinking of your posts… mentioning loses… by now I have come to understand if I cant accomplish something, if I don’t understand something that is simply because there are barriers which were placed there keeping me walled in and wont let me see different. After all just how long you been in this universe which contained billions of experiences: and to every one of these you added few dozen considerations…and these considerations are alive and still are the walls-limitations which keep you within. If you feel that you have loss, because you have not found and erased the cause which wont let you have otherwise. 🙂 my experience…

  62. Whenever I see you I think of this:

  63. Elizabeth Hamre

    Oracle… PS; keep it in sight the loss also exist to day and it can be in very solid position because once upon in different reality that loss was a huge win. and one keeps those wins intact, no downpour can wash them away.

  64. I have come such a long way since I chose to challenge Dianetics and Scientology against my own reality. I have learned many things, unraveled many mysteries, expanded the range of tools available to me, and, I think, grown as a being.

    One of the areas that I have re addressed was Dianetics. Not fully and completely, as yet, but enough to see that it deserves further investigation on my part.

    I now hold a radically different view of what makes Dianetics workable, when or if it is. I no longer feel that even the basic theories of how the mind works represent my own views. I do not think the “mind” is essentially “built” the way it is described in Dianetics, nor that the stated way that it functions is a true representation of its actual workings.

    I have come to the conclusion that L. Ron Hubbard failed himself as a philosopher and explorer, by a seeming over-willingness to cling to some thesis of his own manufacture, and cease further investigation.

    I have been guilty of following him down that path. It seems it is easier to cling than it is to reach.

    That being said, I find that my association with Scientology has provided me with access to many tools that I have found much use for. Tools that, in fact, I now use to reevaluate the very subject itself.

    THAT being said, I have come to a place where I no longer consider myself a Scientologist. I am no longer willing to pigeon-hole my personal philosophy into a concept that is barely recognizable to me.

    It has been a wonderful journey. I pray that I never become complacent, but continue to search and develop.

    Thank you Marty for all the little nudges that have kept me moving forward.

    Eric S

  65. @The Oracle: No matter how busy I get and inclined to skim through all this data on the Internet, I’ve always taken the time to read your comments. Why? Because more often than not you have something unique to say, some point of view that I had not considered before, and I enjoy being surprised in that way.

    Sure it’s not easy being a diamond in the rough, and it sounds like you just discovered one of your sharp edges. Go heal and then get back into this fray. I’m not the only one who would miss your insights.

  66. Cure blindness ? Perfect memory ? Cure homosexuality ?

    Oh it is on now

    gloves off

  67. Dogma and ideas are what one believes in Elizabeth.

    Spiritual is experiential.

    Belief is still in the mind. Self is the maker of realities to believe in. Self is not a belief, consideration, postulate or perspective of any kind.

  68. Ok, but what does Mirildi think? She proposed possible reasons for not following some advice.

    But thank you for your input Elizabeth.

  69. Schorch

    Interesting post.

    My thinking is closely aligned with the core of your comment.

    In my attempt to reconcile the power of “belief” with an apparent good (or bad) effect I came up with this.

    At this point I feel that the “workability” of ANY procedure is closely related to “belief” in the procedure. I am talking about “belief” on the level of “postulated truth”. So far, my view holds that one’s postulates are, in fact, the only “truth” there is.

    I have turned this concept back on my view of how auditing itself works. The most significant aspect of a “session” is the being’s creation of, or re-affirmation of, a truth or postulate. A being has changed nothing in his own universe until he “changes his mind.” (Postulates a new reality) What gets him to change his mind is considered “workable” What does not, is considered “unworkable.”

    A being seems to be willing to do a procedure, that he considers will produce change, right up to the point where he postulates that he is done, cured, or whatever. Try to go beyond that and the being gets upset and may apparently “lose his gain”. (consider that his postulate is somehow invalid)

    What processes and how long they need to be done seems to hinge upon how much “convincing” the being needs before he is able to say for certain that “he now knows something he had not known,” (new postulate) that seems to handle a difficulty he was convinced he was having.(old postulate)

    Anyway, I could go into more depth, but that is the essence of my thoughts at this point.

    In the past, when I voiced an opinion similar to this, I was challenged by others who were adamant that “processing does not depend on belief.. and here is proof….” Well, as covered in my brief explanation above, that appears to be what they are postulating as “truth” and so they will tend to see or produce their postulated results, just as I do with my version.

    Interesting universe isn’t it?


  70. There was a point where Ron appeared to go against Scientology in around the mid 1960’s.

    If you look from the viewpoint of the Axioms and Logics of the early 50’s, many of Hubbard’s policies, upon which he created his Church beginning in 1959, violated Scientology.

    For instance:

    Axiom 11 The considerations resulting in conditions of existence are fourfold:

    a. As-isness is the condition of immediate creation without persistence, and is the condition of existence which exists at the moment of creation and the moment of destruction, and is different from other considerations in that it does not contain survival.

    b. Alter-isness is the consideration which introduces change, and therefore time and persistence, into an as-isness to obtain persistency.

    c. Isness is an apparency of existence brought about by the continuous alteration of an as-iness. This is called, when agreed upon, reality.

    d. Not-isness is the effort to handle isness by reducing its condition through the use of force. It is an apparency and cannot entirely vanquish an isness.

    How many policies, written in the 1960’s and 70’s, used alter-isness and not-isness to handle things?

    Yet alter-isness and not-isness do not lead to as-isness, per 1950’s Scientology. So when you have some thing like how to handle critics, or the IRS, or the FBI, why would you use Alter-isness and Not-isness like his later policies state?

    This was always a kind of weirdity to me as a Scientologist. And when two opposing ideas would come into my mind, I would take the one I was most invested in, like all human beings do.

    The one I was most invested in was “L Ron Hubbard is Source” so I thought “he must have his reasons, even though they totally contradict everything I have ever learned about Scientology. Maybe it was some OT Level he discovered since the 1950’s which convinced him that Scientology should be violated in this case. It doesn’t make sense right now, but I’m sure it will make sense after I go Clear.”

    And then after I went Clear and the contradiction was still there, my thinking became “it will all be resolved after I go OT. So for now, I won’t think about it, and I will stay ethical and keep doing what I am told I need to do to go OT.”

    In the few years after getting out of Scn, I used to beat myself up about this kind of idiotic, servile thinking. But since then I have allowed myself to see how much social pressure was being applied to me to keep me thinking this way. And how much lying was used on me to keep me from discovering the truth about the group I had joined.

    No matter what Hubbard said, a person is both himself, AND the environment he is trying to handle. So it is very forgivable to believe your chosen religion, and to be influenced by your religious leaders.

    I am actually proud of myself for the decisions I have made, given the social pressures of the cult environment I was in.

    Once I had the information I needed to make informed decisions about Scientology, I did the right thing.

    Just as everyone on this blog is doing right now.


  71. +1000

  72. Let’s get down to brass tacks…..

    Ron sure does seem afflicted with a diagnosis of “Delusions of Grandeur”.

    Or is it ‘grandiose delusions’………….


    He isn’t and won’t be some self-designated God-like historical figure. He just turned out to be a horribly broken man.

    Consider his admonition to Sarge:

  73. Because the world IS going mad and we… at least needed a common (sense) language to speak with. And that was Dianetics and IS Scientology. Aristotle and Plato and Socrates did their own thing and LRH did his own.

    The world does need a common language to speak. And that’s not a perfect language but it does make common sense. At least to me. I wonder if it ever did to you, too, my friend, in some aspects? Did it?

  74. Oh, one more thing. LRH as the identity which inhabited the body known as LRH might have never learnt those lessons. But now there is no such identity. The only thing remaining is the product of that identity and that is the Tech of which too many avail but still want to focus on the identity and make less of it. Still they use the Tech to their avail and FREEEEEE! Hmmmm… I wonder what kind of exchange is that.

  75. And I believe the tools to be limited as Hubbard was not a self realized soul. He really was a New Age Freudian Cult.

    But Ron did not delve into deep spiritual matters. One cannot delve into deep spiritual matters when one is immoral.

    Perception of deep spiritual matters require living by a universal code of ethics.

    The reason why is because deep spiritual issues are intuitionally perceived. Intuitional channels are muddied up with immorality or out ethics. Out ethics lowers the vibration of the person and a person cannot perceive subtle intuitional perceptions of higher vibrational living.

    The rate of vibration is to fine for a course mentality to register.

  76. Eric, you bring to mind all the accounts of “coffee shop” auditing where the “pc” responds according to the underlying theory of the tech, and also gets the end result expected – even though that pc had no idea there was any kind of process being applied. But I believe you are absolutely right that there would have been a corresponding postulate – which is the whole point about the tech, i.e. that underlying it is the discovery of the basic postulates of a being. Which I don’t believe is true of all the methodologies that are around. In other words, the placebo effect is limited.

  77. When you say “the world needs a common language”, do you mean that we need to believe the sames things?

    Like we need a world religion where everyone belongs and we all believe the same things?

    Since we don’t have that now – is that why you think the world is mad?

  78. I invite any Scientologist to take me on on these topics.

  79. Elizabeth Hamre

    🙂 you just gained on extra viewpoint.

  80. You are right Peter, it may have not survived. Not the least of which would have been false claims of healing as a reason for that.

    Laws against false claims of healing protect the population from fraud.

    Hubbard was against testing outcomes yet claimed to be 100% standard outcome. No wonder he demonized these organizations. They wanted research and proof. And needing proof was something LRH thought was an aberration. And now apparently he thought research was an aberration as well. Actually for him, the advertisement of research was purely a marketing scam. Like a weight loss pill.

    So, the original squirrel simply wanted more research and less bullshit.

    Geeze, what an evil bastard Winters must have been.

    Come to think of it, maybe he was the first SP also. He was critical of Ron, huh, maybe he was a man after my own heart. Has the integrity to know what he knew. Ron conned people with false claims of research. He conned YOU.

    His troubles with society, his imagined or intentional lies about being a victim of Pyches, Marcabs, Psychologists, Priests, Journalists, Nibs, Sarah, Mayo, Otto, Winter, Xenu, CIA, FBI, Interpol, Communists, British Parliment, AMA, Implanters, SPs, PTSs, Squirrels, The US Government etc must get one to think!!!

    It is hard when world views crumble beneath the weight of truth. But if truth is the goal, then we all must learn to stand unshaken amidst the crash of breaking worlds. And appreciate the destruction of old school belief systems. Then upgrade you OS or buy new hardware. Commodor 64 belief systems belong in recycling.

    Just breathe…………..and let it go. While at the same time sort out what was true and what was not. From your own point of view. Using your own God given intellectual sovereignty to run the new software.

  81. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian “”””””Spiritual is experiential. “”” there are many of us who do not have to WAIT FOR SOME SCIENTIST to tell us what we are and yes we are existing without the body and that is real … WE JUST KNOW.

  82. Okay, but you only commented on the promises. My post was about separating those out from “what the tech can deliver.” Can you do it and still stay cool, calm and collected? How are you TRs, CD? 🙂

    True, Ron promised the moon – and delivered a rocket that can only take us part of the way. I, for one, am grateful for that prototype rocket, which can now be improved upon to take us further.

  83. Nice Alanzo. I enjoy your writtings. Thanks for them

  84. Agreed, Theo. As you indicate, the significant thing in PT is the tech. It would not make sense to have the pendulum swing from blind adherence to Ron, to the reverse – blind unwillingness to look beyond the man and see the value in what he left.

  85. That’s right, CD. He did come with a process to remedy. Many of them, in fact – including much more workable forms of Dianetics, the last being New Era Dianetics.

  86. Cat, my thought on this would be the same as what I replied to Eric S’s post.

  87. No, it was Peter Moon who proposed possible reasons, and his post was what I was commenting on. It made sense to me, based on the fact that at the time there were powerful vested interests which tried their utmost to put a stop to Hubbard and Scientology. That is according to their own, now public. records.

  88. Games was about 22 right ?

    My passionate love back in the day when I started posting on your blog:

  89. Alanzo,
    Your logic is impeccable.

  90. . . . that “meat” will stand up to rigorous scientific inquiry. And then with objective evaluation, the field could bloom . . .

    I agree entirely that Scientolog could bloom if even just a few of its claims could be substanitated but, so far, not one has.

    Missing from Marty’s piece is the fact that Dianetics was, with the cooperation of L Ron Hubbard, subject to two scientific experiments. The first concluded that there was no basis in reality for the existence of Engrams as defined by Hubbard, while the second concluded that “Dianetics does not effect any significant changes in intellectual functioning, mathematical ability, or the degree of personality conflicts.” Rather than a lack of scientific testing being the cause of any travails, it would seem that it was the results of actual testing which prompted, at least in part, the travails. The increasingly totalitarian nature of Scientology that Dr Winter observed in his report was due not to a lack of testing but, rather, in an attempt to hide truth. As Hubbard said when ducking under the cover of religious cloaking for the second time in 1962 . . .

    . . . It is entirely a matter for accountants and solicitors. . .

    . . . and this is still the case today as displayed in various courtrooms.

    Sure, there may be some valid criticisms of the experiments but they are the only ones available and, to date, not a skerrick of an iota of scientific data has been presented by Scientology which refutes the findings. Instead, Scientologists flourish reams of “success stories” in the mistaken belief that “anecdote” is the plural of “datum”.

  91. Cat Daddy,

    You know, I used to wonder when I was in the SO, what can of mind will assign a production stat to every soul in an Org and made them live by that?

    What would happen if that system was adopted by the entire planet, and every child was measured by that?

    It boggles the mind, the level of duplicity and outright irresponsibility.

  92. No doubt Elizabeth, only self can limit self. But, the mechanists of that are: limits come from wrong thinking, wrong ideas.

    Ideas create reality, and realities are aquired by taught world view, politics and religion, family, national-sexual.

    And it is in the words of scriptures, stories, political rhetoric that people are imprinted from birth; an Indian never chose to like curry. It was imprinted. A cultural imprint.

    Beliefs are cultural imprints. And that culture is passed on with words. Printed words, taped words, CD words and downloadable words;

    Ron’s words

  93. Marildi

    Yes,it seems that the placebo effect is limited,

    One aspect to this discussion is that I separate out actual physical universe occurrences from the mix. My thesis is only applicable to subjective matters.

    It is observable that when you mix an acid with a base you get a compound known as a salt. It doesn’t matter what one considers about it, the mechanics of the interaction are always the same when done exactly the same. It seems likely that occurrences at this level are totally outside the realm of Theta.

    When one is dealing with bodies, or life forms, you have interactions both chemical and spiritual. You have how the various chemical aspects occur, and then you have how the life unit responds to those changes. At a higher level you have more advanced and far reaching postulates and considerations that may produce additional effects at the level of the operation of the organism.

    So I am left with discoveries to make and questions to answer. Just how much of the non-organic physical universe can a being actually be cause over? That is a tough one to answer because the question is subjective and so will the answer be.

    Maybe Theta can be at total cause over actual MEST at all levels,(not just his perceptions, concepts and postulates relating to it) but that has not been my experience or my observation.


  94. Alanzo — nice reflection from you. I really get what you are saying.

    Marty had occasionally posted a saying that really resonated for me: tell the truth, and it becomes part of your past; tell a lie, and it becomes part of your future (something close to that).

    In early Scientology terms, that could be worded as alter-is-ness causes persistence; as-is-ness is truth and eliminates persistence through time.

    It has always troubled me deeply that Scientology has been willing and able to alter-is, which is the antithesis of truth seeking.

  95. Marty,
    Thanks for the play by play on what you personally are looking at and for sharing your viewpoints on such a regular basis. I find it really valuable.

    You said:
    “The further Scientologists proceed in their study, the more they are precluded from comparing their learning to any other discipline. They are trained to treat any independent, evolved learning about the mind and spirit with disdain.”

    This is so true, Marty. Just yesterday we were discussing a certain book in front of a now out, flag trained auditor. His look of contempt and superiority for our “reasonableness” with “other practices” was exactly as you describe.

    After about a half hour of back and forth, he finally got the point that other people’s opinions, observations and philosophies are not the enemy; and they are in fact what led Hubbard to his own developments. He really had the idea that if he even thinks about reading anything like a book on Kaballah or the Four Agreements, that he’s committing a crime.

    There are obviously too many books and ideas for anyone to cover everything. But what is equally obvious is that the thought stopping and idea squashing has contributed to the creation of a cold-blooded, disingenuous, rapidly shrinking cult. Obviously Ron did not know everything about everything.

    I agree that the vast majority of the tech, if delivered solely for the PC, can help a person live a happier life and grow spiritually. But to keep one’s head too firmly ensconced in that bubble can reverse the freedom gained.

  96. I learned this the hard way myself. I even got nailed here. I learned much through the resource based economy data and well I got jumped on for it did not fit the Scientology way of thinking. I am sure glad it don’t. I taught me to question and look at the sciences and learn more than I have ever done in the cult or out of it.

    I know the no money system is coming and as a result I know the church will go down even if their actions don’t bring it down in the meantime.

    I no longer try to get any of them to look at anything else for very few of them can but the ones that do and see it are one of my best on line friends. I also gave up calling myself a Scientologist or anything else for that matter. I am just me.

  97. Oracle, You are a tender, loving soul. Your post made me weep. Like Hubbard, I believe in the basic goodness of man. I do not believe that condemnation of self or others is any route to freedom or enlightenment. I believe that we are all fallible. I do believe in truth, whether it be a happy or sad, a moral or immoral truth. I believe in having the right to accept or reject any datum I encounter, no matter who says it. I believe in the right to disagree or agree with anyone or anything. I have studied many religions and philosophies. I been a practicing Buddhist. I have studied Humanistic Psychology which I have a great affinity for. I also grew up in Scientology and was in the Sea Org for over a decade years. I have audited hundreds of hours. I’m Clear. I believe there is much to recommend Scientology and I have found it to be of great use in my life. I have helped many, many people through its application–real true honest help. I do not feel the need to be graduated from the subject of Scientology, however, I appreciate Marty’s boldly inquisitive investigation and have also found his writings to contain many useful truths. I also appreciate Winter’s point of view in that no subject is immune to flaws and that proper study of any subject must be done with a good, solid basis in Critical Thinking. I am also a mother with a young child and I want my child to be free in all ways. When she is old enough, I will introduce her to the technology of Scientology and Dianetics, but not before I have introduced her to the idea that her mind is her own and she can believe or disbelieve, use or cast aside any datum she ever encounters in her life. I hope you will continue to post on this blog and on other blogs, as I find your view points and expressions very heartfelt and honest.

  98. Really interesting about Dr. Winter, Marty! He saw so clearly right at the start.

  99. marildi: “My post was about separating those out from “what the tech deliver””.
    How exactly is that to be done when in just about every single text or lecture by LRH there are statements like “we’re making Clears and OTs with amazing ease” and it’s very easy to find out that most of the people in question are declared or did not come close to live the successful lives they were supposed to. If you can present a branch of Scientology where the claims that can easily be disproved have been eliminated I’ll be your first customer. Right now I will not send my kids or friends to Independents knowing they’ll be subjected to boasting and charlatan statements that discredits the subject altogether.

  100. Not experimental, experiential.

  101. Actually Elizabeth, I’m not sure what you mean in relation to what I said.

  102. So Mirildi, then you feel Ron was justifying his lies about research why?

  103. Elizabeth Hamre

    and yours… 🙂 have a lovely day… now that too has meaning! 🙂 indicates something…

  104. LDW,
    Your comment and observation is very indicative of how things turned out to be.
    I gave Hubbard and Scientologists the benefit of the doubt that I had never afforded anybody else. I literally went out of my way to give Scientologists a chance. But the isness is whatever it is. Scientology is philosophically bankrupt.
    I think it will take a long time, and people like you to eventually bring some kind of repute and use to the subject. But there is a lot of growing up that Scientologists will have to do.


  105. Beautifully stated.

  106. LRH succeeded in doing what he was trying to do. People who develop new technology succeed because they are aggressive, they do not back down . LRH was right .

  107. Elizabeth Hamre

    Thanks Brian… New word for me to look up..

  108. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian : Experiential: in what meaning did you use: experiential observed pragmatic practical realistic first-hand ? please let me know.

  109. A direct experience. When the spiritual is experienced directly, the experience direct; no vias, thoughts, beliefs, consideration, biases, faiths etc.

    Spirituality is an experience: not a belief as you stated.

  110. Right by lying?

    If you bought a car and they claimed certain characteristics and those characteristics were why you bought the car. Then you find out they were lying; that is fraud.

    You must grant LRH infallibility. He was right even though he perpetrated fraud. That is a true believer no doubt!

  111. Bodil, you have touched on one of the most common confusions, IMO. The tech itself doesn’t include everything ever written or spoken by LRH but is comprised of the doingnesses of auditing – and those are given in HCOB’s, red on white. That is what LRH himself stipulated as to where the current tech can be found. So any extraneous statements, such as the example you gave, and LRH’s opinions of any kind are not part of the tech – and auditors are not to be corrected on anything but HCOB’s.

    Thus, it isn’t at all a “branch” of Scientology tech, it IS the tech. And many Independent auditors only practice the actual tech of HCOBs. Of course, what the CoS practices is an entirely different matter.

  112. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian… when have you decided what is wrong and what is wright in the universe?
    It can only be right is if those belief are same as yours?
    When have you decided that others don’t have the right to express their reality and don’t have the right to play their own game?
    What made you believe that they are bad because of their belief and you sooooooo good because your beliefs are good, therefore important and have value? and they the one should be the only existing reality?
    The righteousness has very strong odor.. one can get its whiff all the from the sub-sub basement called Hell.. that too is self created of course….. same as all the other realities one has.

  113. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian… thanks again for expressing your viewpoint. which is your universe and I am delighted that it is not mine… if it would be I would be in session10 hours a day to erase some of those considerations.

  114. A Sci-Fi writer with no degree in medicine (or anything) comes out of nowhere boasting a milestone for man “superior to his invention of the wheel” while encouraging laymen to prod around in each other’s minds using techniques he’s developed, all the while refusing to provide any reviewable data to back his claims.

    I’d have been outraged if someone hadn’t at least tried to stop Hubbard. I’d also argue that those who did try to stop him have been proven right over the years by the number of suicides, psychotic breaks, and the general amount of carnage left in Hubbard’s wake.

  115. Elizabeth Hamre

    OHHH but it is for those who have learned those concepts from teachers like Jesus than it is only a belief. I call that second hand data. 🙂

  116. Justifying” is one way to view it. But per the record, LRH was factually fighting against the intended annihilation of Scientology, and doing so in the way he thought best. “Right” or “wrong” in the short run – in the long run, saving the Scientology movement may very well have been the only way that the development of the tech could have proceeded.

    Along with others, whose work LRH did the dynamic service of organizing and promulgating, LRH’s discoveries have made a substantial contribution to spiritual freedom. I say that because the tech, as a result of its workability, has made its way into various other methodologies and has been assimilated by them.

    And with ongoing improvements being made to what LRH began, his contribution could eventually be viewed as quite significant. Don’t forget, there were other great contributors to the world who were even considered insane. Isaac Newton is one example.

  117. Conan –

    It used to be that if I wrote something like that on Marty’s blog, I would get the shit beat out of me.

    Literally (Internet-wise)

    The times they sure are a changin’.


  118. Elizabeth Hamre

    Marildi… good viewpoints. 🙂 but most likely will not be duplicated. Oh.. our self created universes can be a lonely place… No one really understand us… hehehe no one can… remember; no one can see how you see that black cat 🙂

  119. Theo –

    I am strictly talking about the writings of L Ron Hubbard. His written and spoken record which make up the ethics, tech, and admin of Scientology.

    If questioning the tech, and testing it with Socratic, Platonic and Aristotelian rigor, had been part of Scn philosophy – which is part of ANY other philosophy in both the Eastern and Western philosophic traditions – then there is a very good chance that Scientology would be surviving today.

    But Scn’s collapse can be traced directly back to the precedent Marty talks about in Hubbard’s treatment of Winter – the first critic – and then enshrined in KSW, where Hubbard supposedly “rose above the bank” and forbid any other input from any other human being, designating “the group” as the “Reactive Mind”.

    That is just false. As human beings, we are social animals. We NEED the viewpoints and experiences of others to tell us where we are blind or inexperienced, or mistaken. When we shut that out, human beings wither, or become corrupted with absolute power, and go insane – just as David Miscavige is doing now, and just as L Ron Hubbard did before him.

    And just like Scientology is doing today.

    I would have thought that as a Greek, you would have learned the lessons of your forefathers 2500 years ago. .

    But my fellow Americans have already forgotten the lessons of our forefathers, and they lived less than 250 years ago. So you are forgiven for forgetting the greatest lessons of the greatest philosophers of western civilization.

    But don’t keep forgetting them. You should use Socrates, Plato and Aristotle to improve Scientology, just as Dr. Winters tried to do, and just as every other philosophy in Western Civilization has done.

    No philosophy can survive without criticism and scrutiny and questioning.

    Hubbard, the individual, never learned that.

    Don’t make his same mistake.


  120. He was never going to get anywhere being nice and pussy footing around .
    Be mean, cruel and vicious , lie to and deceive your enemies is the way to get things done. People who work that way do be very successful with their business .

  121. Actually, it was superior to the invention of the wheel AND the arch. 🙂

    But that line was in the synopsis of an early edition of DMSMH and isn’t included in later additions. Nevertheless, I agree that LRH was bombastic, as were many others in that period of time. Have you ever watched old newsreels from the 50s? They come across like parody! But that is apparently the way people talked back then. Even old movies and the acting in them is bombastic.

    As regards the suicides and psychotic breaks, I don’t think there is much if any evidence of those being related to the tech per se but to mis-applications of it – and especially to applications and mis-applications of policy.

    Anyway, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting, and as I commented in my reply to Brian just above, apparently even non-Scientologist practitioners have liked the taste.

  122. A mind that needs to control everything to be able to mke sense of life

  123. Conan, the WHOLE Church of Scientology is just one big “science based squirrel activity that can’t go wrong”! 🙂 Guaranteed by the church to work! 🙂 Should I or anyone else that appreciates auditing and training in life for myself and others really care what happens to the church? 🙂

  124. E. there’s one way to do it. It’s jocularly called out-of-body sex. 🙂

  125. “The tech itself doesn’t include everything ever written or spoken by LRH but is comprised of the doingnesses of auditing – and those are given in HCOB’s, red on white.”
    So, Marildi, you believe you can teach a person to audit without ever hearing LRH lectures, such as Student Hat or the SHSBC tapes that are called to be listened to on every auditor course checksheet. Or would you carefully go through them and edit out all claims by LRH that can be disproven. That would be very controversial as it completely violates KSW.

  126. Elizabeth Hamre

    Marildi.. because I am aware that I am not duplicated, I know I write these posts to exercise the lips by blowing air 🙂
    But on the serious note, I have gained lot from blogging because there are plenty new viewpoints I can take into session and confront these little dirt pebbles and I find underneath the eons of accumulated dirt crust a jewel of great value.

  127. Excellent piece, Marty.

  128. Bodil, he point I was trying to make is that the tech to be applied in auditing is contained in the HCOBs – but that isn’t to discount the value of other works which contain the theory the text is based on and give the student a greater conceptual understanding of it. However, in many of those references there is tech that was later revised as the research continued, as well as other data that would conflict with data in extant HCOBs. There wouldn’t be any need to edit anything out of tapes, though, as the student has the relevant issues in his course materials which pertain to the level being studied and to what will be applied in the auditing of that level,

    Btw, on the RPF, they use a system called “Read it, Drill it, Do it.” So apparently auditing can be learned without having studied all the theory that Academy students study. But I’m sure RPF’ers make more errors as they are auditing with less conceptual understanding. That is true for any applied subject, as explained in the Study Tapes. In other words, for best results, a person should be able to think with what s/he’s doing, and not just apply it rotely.

  129. Correction: “…the theory the text is based on…” should read “the theory the TECH is based on…”

  130. Existence is self existent Elizabeth. Conscious existence is causless, beginningless. Consciousness creates viewpoints. Consciousness does not need to be audited out.

    The Spirit is incorporeal and exists without a mind.

    The dreamer can exist without a dream. But a dream cannot exist without a dreamer.

    You still see things as thoughts and considerations, viewpoints and opinions. My universe and your universe.

    Maybe many years from now, when you venture beyond the stifling rigidity of Hubbardology you will know what I’m talking about.

    But first I’d suggest reading other perspectives so you can see the axiomatic basis for my words.

    I know you haven’t ventured far because what I am talking about is really spirituality 101. Kids stuff and very basic on the spiritual path.

    But not on Ron’s limited dogma. Ron was stuck in his head and fought shadows.

    There is so much more beyond all of this my universe, your universe, my consideration, your consideration thought cage.

    Thinking thinking thinking, always thinking! Always looking into your mind files to evaluate. Stuck in a never ending solo audit of the mind.

    Ron certainly instilled arrogance in his disciples. I work to neutralize that human tendency.

    Some practicing Scientologists consider elitist arrogance a sign of certainty, a sign of knowledge and power.

    But that arrogance to the observant reveals itself as insecurity. A mock up of certainty to make up for the lack of true knowledge and pure states of being.

    The highest attainment to truth, is to the attainment of one’s illusions.
    L Ron Hubbard.

    No wonder the feigned spirituality of Hubbardologists is so make believe.

    “what? What did you say Mr. Ape in the back of the taxi? And the ape says,”people who can’t see me are wrong.”

    “People who can see me have learned to deny common sense and to treat make believe as truth.”

    Much like the claim of research where there was none.

    My my my my me me me me me.

    The universe is so much fuller, so much broader and more connected then the imprisoned thought club of Scientology world views.

    But first we have to venture out. Venture out beyond the doctrines of a genius fabulist.

    And outside of the thought prison of those perimeters, we can incounter undreamed of possibilities.

    States of being beyond our wildest dreams. Ron was not even close ladies and gentlemen. But you will not know until you cut the apron strings of your comfort level and self limiting Scientology belief systems.

    Be constructively critical. Resurrect the liberating feeling of using your own mind to come to your own conclusions about Ron and Scientology.

    When you cut the chains, you will be so happy.

    A whole new world of spiritual possibility awaits. Beyond a doubt.

  131. I could not have stated this better, Alanzo. I came to the same conclusions when I researched through the original Scientology materials. The continuous alterations and distortions that were introduced during Miscavige’s era tend to “obscure” the simplicity of Scientology and clarity of seeing how different things fit together (or not!). Once you establish what Scientology is and what Hubbard really wrote or approved according to the original copyrighted materials under his name, then the vision is clear – when you compare the basic philosophy of Scientology laid out mostly in the 50’s with the organizational structure laid out mostly through the 60’s – it’s as if it was done by a different person – Ron’s “evil double” or something.

    And then it became clear to me that the problem with Scientology is not necessarily with some “bad leader” or even distorted materials since the originals can still be obtained… the true source of the problem in Scientology is that there is no system of organizing Scientology activities that is going to deliver Scientology as a genuine spiritual practice. What we have is an “admin construct” to deliver an Orwellian system of mind control and collective conformity… which obviously made me wonder about who Ron Hubbard really was and what he was truly trying to do. Scientology seems to have been set-up as some giant hypocrisy machine by Hubbard himself, and it is also amazing to see how at least some of the “independents” that I came across do not see this “elephant in the room.” I think anyone using Ron’s authoritative approach to organize Scientology would inevitably recreate the same “theta body” as the CofS if not worse and more extreme… And this has definitely been my experience in trying to interact with some “independent” circles. Now, if somebody claimed they were 100% LRH, I would run the other way. lol Or actually I already know ahead of time that I would say something just from speaking my mind that is going to get me labeled as something undesirable and “excommunicated” from the comm-cycle. I called this “withdraw and substitute” – withdraw from the comm-cycle and substitute understanding with some bad label for the person – a rather unpleasant experience especially if you managed to develop some affinity for the person on the other end.

  132. That is priceless, E. More power to you!

  133. Crepuscule (great name by the way) — I do hear you. At the same time, as an auditor, I witnessed some powerful insights gained by the “PC.” Perhaps the results are no more with other talk therapies could gain. Yet the e-meter does enable a “therapist” to direct one’s attention to things in the margins of consciousness. That is one example of a phenomenon that I believe might be validated by science.

    As to engrams, yes, the original definition (trace on a cell) is quite suspect. Yet there is an emerging field of genetics (epigenetics) that may show that it is not just the genetic coding that determines how we “are” but things that may be passed inter-generationally through a different means — that what happened to even say our grandparents may leave a higher level effect on ourselves. So in the 20th Century, the idea of something akin to an “engram” was suspect, and rightly so; in the 21st Century, maybe not so clearcut now.

    As to “exteriorization,” I’m skeptical. Scientists can now trigger the experience in the lab. Still, I’ve had experiences similar to one Marty described in one of his books (being “out” and watching a scene from a perspective not available via the eyes). Even there though, science is getting a sense of the power of the mind to create “reality.”

    Anyway, I think that science has progressed greatly, even as Scientology has stayed locked in time. And new research may find intriguing results in some areas — or not, but I would like to see it studied further.

    I agree completely — anecdotes do not data make! And the claim “Scientology works” is no more valid that claiming any religions “works” — which they all claim. The claim that patrons are happy likewise holds no merit. The conviction or belief in something also does not lend to validation. I’d love to see someone design and carry out some double-blind long-term and short-term studies.

    Just some thoughts.

  134. “Be mean, cruel and vicious , lie to and deceive your enemies is the way to get things done. People who work that way do be very successful with their business .”

    So is this the famous “Scientology ethics”?

  135. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian ,,, that is simply wonderful…very uplifting… could you give me the link to the book where you have copied it from so I can read the rest of it?

  136. I’m very sorry, marildi. There is so much brain gymnastics that will have to be applied in your scenario that it becomes quite absurd to me. You’ll start students reading KSW “having the right technology” kind of thing. And then you’ll put them on checksheets where they listen to LRH tapes saying all kinds of weird-ass things that can be disproven – then you have to work out with them that some of the claims are to be ignored because it was “later revised” (after they studied KSW that undisputably states that the tech is pure and not to be changed in any way).

    It is unfortunate, but it is what it is. I wish it wasn’t so but IMO “the tech” is fatally damaged by the delusional and charlatan-like claims made all through it, that cannot be extrapolated from it without severely changing the whole premise of it all. I wish you could talk me into that there was some hope that Scientology could persist, but so far you’ve not succeeded.

  137. Mary Rathernotsay

    By his own conclusion at the end of his life he “failed”.

  138. Eric, are you familiar with L. Kin’s books about Scientology and the many advances that have been made to the tech in the Freezone? In his first book, titled *SCIENTOLOGY, More Than A Cult?* the subject of Cause over MEST is taken up a bit:

    “The next step upwards would be the Clear on the 6th dynamic. He could not be disturbed by the vibrations of rocks or water veins, by X-rays or whatever inorganic radiation source. He could locate it and de-aberrate it by auditing, if it were aberrated; at least he could keep it from influencing his body or himself. Let us imagine a thetan for a moment, who would understand mest completely and utterly, who could communicate with each minute subatomic particle lovingly – would he not, as the next step, begin to influence mest causatively? By making it storm and snow on a bright sunny day, by making stones melt, by moving mountains? By creating solid objects out of nothing or letting his body pass through walls? Is it here where we find the Cleared Theta Clear?”

    When I read the above not long ago, I remembered an anecdote I heard that was told to a friend of mine by a friend of his. Apparently, while his friend was waiting in the HGC lounge she saw another pre-OT reach for something on a table but her hand passed right through the table. She then smiled, shrugged and said “That just keeps happening.” (Just an anecdote but from a supposedly reliable source.)

    Btw, the links for the PDF copies of the 3 other Kin books are the same as the link above except that the “1” would be substituted by a “2” or “3” or “4”.

  139. “Justifying” is one way to view it. But per the record, LRH was factually fighting against the intended annihilation of Scientology, and doing so in the way he thought best. “Right” or “wrong”

    Then you have simply not read all the data. But maybe some day you will.
    Be adventurous, it is out there.

    BTW, imo, Justification for fraud says to me, that you grant Hubbard infallibility. Even in the face of evidence, from Marty, here, on this blog, at the top of this page; evidence of fraud, you still croak that he may be doing good.

    That to me is a true believer. And a person I would not trust, because they still believe fraud is justifiable If doing it for the greater good.
    Who’s greater good? Ah, that’s really the Achilles Heel of that ethics devise.

    When men seek power, their “greater good” can be evidence of someone discounting common standards of decency.

    Those who practice truth, consider practicing fraud a spiritual crime against oneself. As well as a betrayal of trust to others.

    I hope one day Mirildi, that you can see what I am talking about.

    You have defined being an apologist, by giving a pass to an abuser of trust. The man of truth who lied.

    You would not tolerate your car not having the things you paid for installed after purchase.

    In the realm of belief, the realm of faith, intelligent people spin funny dreams.

    When they justify actual moral wrongs as moral rights, that is the moment the conscience shuts down.

    Welcome to the GO/OSA

  140. Here’s a very brief video discussion that relates to your question of “Just how much of the non-organic physical universe can a being actually be cause over?” The general question it addresses is “Can we modify future probabilities with our intent?” – including both the subjective and the objective.

  141. About Hubbard gloating over others kicking the bucket, you got me remember how he gloated on Don Purcell death. Purcell was a good person.

  142. This one may be even more relevant:

  143. “Today you are You, that is truer than true. There is no one alive who is Youer than You.”

    -Dr. Seuss

  144. Bodil, sorry I made it sound so complicated. But honestly, when I did the Academy Levels (in the early 80’s), the student just followed the HCOB’s as regards how to audit. And the tapes gave an understanding of WHY it was done that way, even though any methods that were talked about in the tapes might have changed. I’m sure you would do fine in an Independent Academy.

  145. christianscientology

    I agree Elizabeth, from Jesus we get belief but Jesus said he would send the Holy Spirit and that would lead us into “all truth”. The Holy Spirit is also “wholly” Spirit that is PURE SPIRIT and what is pure spirit? THETA that’s what.

    That is why the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of LRH are in fact compatible. They are both speaking of STATIC.

  146. christianscientology

    Oh please! That is minuscule compared to the damage done by well-intentioned but misguided professionals in the field of “mental health”.

  147. “I hope one day Mirildi, that you can see what I am talking about.”

    I hope one day, Brian, you can duplicate how to even spell my name, let alone what I am talking about. 🙂

  148. Ditto what Brain said, TO. My sentiments too. You are so very relevant – and you have made me think MANY a time. I hope to see you back here soon!

  149. Sorry – “Brian” not ‘brain”……. finger trouble!

  150. Ethics are subjective as is morality.

    Scientology Ethics are Ethics but some sort of survival of the fittest Ethics

  151. Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.– Albert Einstein

  152. Yes they align perfectly with Satanism altough to be honest Satanism seems more honest and more benign a proposition to me.


  154. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip my dear ”That is why the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of LRH are in fact compatible. They are both speaking of STATIC.”’ agree to that but only partially. in my reality the word holy has a sulphurous smell.

  155. Elizabeth Hamre

    You are right.. it is not OK… far from OK… spoken words is a sword can cut deeply that cut is evaluation and invalidation… unfortunately we all carry one.

  156. Ha ha Elizabeth, you flatter me. I got this writting from Briantology. Have you heard of it?

  157. PIp, so how do you reconcile Ron’s recorded and written claims to be the Prince of Darkness and the Anti-Christ?

  158. Wendy, the bane of being a “Brian” is these two words happening together from time to time. I do it myself. 🙂

  159. Marildi

    Thank you for that. Guess I will just have to see what I see when I get there.

    Eric S

  160. No words aren’t the problem and you can call me anything Iyou want.

    My point is Ron’s behavior is always exused as: He had to do it, he could not have done it in another way than he did.

    Abusing people is a choiche and L Ron Hubbard chose to Abuse people, man wonen and children

    BEHAVIOR is senior to WORDS or WRITING

  161. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian it did not meant as a compliment. but I must compliment you how well you do evaluating invalidating others belief. My reality is on that:”must control” and that is rooted in fear: have to have others think believe what the self believes in.”” IF NOT than my reality is worthless, I am nothing.. no one… “””Have to be right at all cost. “Others wrong and I am right” I don’t know DM outside of what I read in blogs… But your line of thinking aliens with his. The only difference is that you do not hold the control stick which is having lot of money therefore” POWER””to do to make others what you want . EGO is a valance.. and that valance is the “””I–me–self” NO Brian no compliment from here, I have no desire to boost your ego to make it bigger-stronger and more forceful: that would be on overt.

  162. Elizabeth said, “in my reality the word holy has a sulphurous smell.”

    Holy: American Heritage dictionary, first entry

    Belonging to, derived from, or associated with a divine power; sacred. 

    Thank you Elizabeth for illustrating the Scientology viewpoint of the divine. 

  163. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian here you go again… you only know what you read in books.. By the way Welcome! Be happy, you just learned a different meaning what Sulphur can mean to others what it represent: from here it is holy. Not every one loves chocolate either that do not mean they are bad or wrong.

  164. I know you did not mean to flatter me Elizabeth. But you did anyway.

    If I was a practicing Scientologist I would have responded with antagonism to your 1.1

    But I am done with seeing human beings like that.

  165. We are only exchanging ideas. All I can do is to attempt to be clear with mine, and you with yours.
    There is a reason why we are attracted to this blog. Many reasons.

  166. Elizabeth Hamre

    Oh Brian… Welcome! now you just learned that holy has other definitions beside what you know from books .Be happy!

  167. Elizabeth Hamre

    C.T… I am fine with that too.. 🙂 that reality establishes-importance-value.. have it your way:) it is a lovely day here, snowing and that is a rare sight at the Lower Mainland of B.C. Canada!

  168. Elizabeth Hamre

    Now Brian if that was true you would not make the above comment… It is a lovely day here.. snowing!!! Enjoy yours! Best.E.

  169. p.s. I forgot to say that the girl in the anecdote whose hand kept passing through the table was on audited NOTs. That was during the period before Miscavige made all the changes to NOTs – and you don’t hear or read OT stories now like you did in those days.

  170. Not to mention the ones who were not well-intentioned.

    (Hi Pip! I will email you later today.)

  171. martyrathbun09

    Does that story impress you?

  172. I have an open mind about it since I have read other OT stories of defying the physical universe. If such things really have occurred, it may not have been a matter of lasting ability but only key-outs as regards agreements with MEST. And Scientologists aren’t the only ones who have reported such things – like when so-called miracles occur.

  173. C.D. I have to give you credit for posting this.

  174. Ah, Mirilidi, you are so good at deflecting. Using misspelling as a weapon of condemnation.

    The point I am making is that you justify fraud with the greatest good.

    That was my point, and you bring up mispelling!

    You are a great study.

  175. Good healthcare system has Canada

    Sounds like they should have had the Winter Olympics over there,.

    Don’t worry even Gahndi had his flaws

  176. martyrathbun09

    What are your case and training levels?

  177. Clear and Ned Auditor and Levels 0-II. And I’ve audited entities with David St. Lawrence.

  178. Well, you have just indicated again that you misduplicated what I wrote. Maybe you can duplicate the Phil Spickler video that Cat Daddy posted near the bottom of the thread. Phil was there and knew Ron personally.

    Oh, and you misspelled my name even worse this time. Jeeze. Go do some duplication drills.

  179. History is important, and he was there.

  180. Yes, of course – everyone talked like that in the 50’s and any psychosis or death that resulted from Scientology was caused by others misapplying the tech…… because none of it could’ve been Ron’s fault.

    I’ve got a lot of respect for your opinion, marildi, and I think it’s great that you’ll debate and that you’ve stayed with this blog even as Marty’s views have somewhat shifted. But, the psychological back flips smart people will perform to defend Hubbard will never cease to amaze me.

  181. Conan, and this is not something new, or something recent. This is something that has gone on for decades in the Church of Scientology, generation upon generation of new church members are taught this overt way of life. As a result, smart people, that refuse to administrate over such things have left the church in droves and not gone back. No one in their right mind would want to be party to make beleiving they were delivering auditing and training to people for profit. No one that I would know of….EXCEPT…the Church of Scientology? 🙂 Should I care? No. I should not! And that is why. 🙂

  182. Elizabeth Hamre

    Yes we have that and seniors like me [old body 74] because retired, have ”limited” income it is totally free. The Olympics’ were here 4 yeas back, location: about 90 miles from here ; We have rarely snow here on the Lower Mainland which is around Vancouver and spreads north of the US border. We have Moderate Climate, Yes Ghandi too was anchored into the body and used words, but his power which carried the verbal message, his actions using the body could only partly demonstrate that message.

  183. I’m sure you’re right, Pip, but only because of the huge discrepancy in the number of people who’ve engaged with some aspect of the mental health field vs. the number who’ve tried Scientology.

  184. martyrathbun09


  185. “Brian… when have you decided what is wrong and what is wright in the universe?”

    When I became a human and discovered I had a brain.

  186. SS, I defend Hubbard in the ways that I defend him – which is not in everything. For example, I don’t know of any psychosis or death that resulted from Scientology that wasn’t a clear-cut misapplication. Do you?

  187. This above regarding a brain is to Elizabeth.

  188. Yes Delores, behold the illustrated numbed conscience of a Scientologist.

    Behold the holy of holy Scientology world view:

    Crush the enemy. It is good for business.

  189. Actually being Human or having a body was never a flaw in my eyes.

    It’s how you learn if you pay attention.

    His main flaw that he was a dictator to his closest and demanded much of them.

  190. I got your back Cat Daddy. Keep up the good work. At some point it will kick in.

    Right now it’s like telling a fundamentalist Christian that Buddha is just as great.

  191. I stay with Marty’s blog because I respect his viewpoints and agree with most of them, and because he allows a dialogue to take place – in which I keep learning.

  192. martyrathbun09

    That might be the most non-sequitur back to back sentences ever to appear among the nearly 1/4 million comments made on this blog.

  193. Elizabeth Hamre

    C.T…. we sometimes don’t realise that our reality is different from others. We assume that others can do what we can.

  194. I would not see it that way.

    I remain intrested in his original tought of having a process to remedy building up on Freud. I like to see that play out.

    It’s funny the more the Cult cracks the more people have heared of the name L Ron Hubbard.

  195. What I meant was that it could be considered a defense of Hubbard on my part that I would question the implication that there have been deaths and psychosis caused by the tech, unless it was misapplied, since I don’t know of any. And then I asked for specifics. What did you see as non-sequitur?

  196. Elizabeth Hamre

    HEHEHEHEHE good one… I did not know that brain that blob-gray matter contains thoughts..

  197. I think anyone who looks for causes of Scientology failures long enough would eventually arrive at the “doorstep” of L. Ron Hubbard himself, and perhaps this is what is happening with more and more people who choose to keep on questioning and keep on looking instead of settling with untenable excuses.

  198. Τhanks Marildi. Sanity is the ability to differentiate and though sounds a cliche, it’s so true.

  199. Dear Alanzo, thank you for your answer and thoughts. It’s true. Maybe I forgot my ancestors. To be honest the way we were taught about them in school was awful. We learned more Ancient Greek than the mere lessons and the teachings of our ancestors. I had no way to decodify their teachings even in modern greek as I had no idea how to study WITH understanding.

    I hope that soon in the future I will have the chance to revisit their teachings from another viewpoint and thanks for reminding me and speaking well of them. It was and IS the first great philosophy of the Western society.

    Now that said and coming back to LRH I am no fanatic. And thanks for clarifying that you speak about the ethics, tech and admin tech of LRH and not LRH personally.

    I agree that criticism is needed. On the other hand some standard procedures are needed too.

    And that brings me to the common language thing. I am not saying we need to believe but I am saying that the people of Earth need to see that there is phenomena which is real and define that phenomena after all. That’s my only mission now. To show this phenomena to as many as possible.

    Like A-R-C… or the reactive mind…. or the component parts of communciation, or the overts, the withholds and missed withholds, those mechanisms… or… or.

    I repeat, Dianetics had its flaws and it was the first entry into the reactive mind. It was not and it is not perfect by any means. Still it is workable by a long shot. Perhaps Hubbard never admitted it openly (not to invalidate the whole technique and book) but he certainly (everyone knows that) improved that technique. That was his way of saying “I was wrong”. I didn’t deal directly with Hubbard this lifetime. Maybe I didn’t want to see the bad aspects of his but see only the good but he is not a “god” for me. Just a good friend and a good teacher.

    that said, I hope I am not leaving you with anymore questions about the common language. WE ARE IN THE BIGGEST DANGER the world will ever meet. That all this common language will be lost… but hey, now that I am thinking about it that can’t happen no matter how many will write whatever about or against the tech… the phenomena exists and understanding it and addressing it produces a serious discharge in the bank. And this is overall what is the value of the Tech. That discharge and resurgence in Tone Level of thetans. That’s a universe of compromise. But overall I think Hubbard did good… a lot of good. It will be understood as time goes on. I hope we can all do more things about it. Sorry, this is my viewpoint.

  200. Elizabeth Hamre

    OH sanity! who is the one who has drawn up the lines what is sane what is not? just thought I throw that one in the pot.

  201. Do you have a Scientology Tattoo ?

  202. Theo, here’s a little video that gives a historical perspective and basis for why and how the tech will remain useful and beneficial as time goes on:

  203. christianscientology

    Lovely video Marildi. To sum up what Tom is saying in Scientological terminology “Considerations are senior to mechanics”

  204. christianscientology

    Hi Brian

    I am just not aware of these claims. First of all I would want to know what is alleged to have been said, and then also the context in which it was said. Even some of Jesus’s sayings can be misconstrued if taken out of context. I am afraid you will have to give me “chapter and verse” if I am going to take those statements seriously.

  205. christianscientology

    Elizabeth interesting you said that; the bible says something to the effect that Holy things have a sweet aroma to those who are being saved, but the smell of death to those who are perishing.

  206. christianscientology

    I “resemble” that remark!

  207. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip… oh I am on the way to burn in Hell for ever having different reality than you and your jesus. 🙂 you folks sorted out by your definition who is good and who is bad… and it was you folks who said judgement what? only who have the right to do? 🙂

  208. Yep, right you are. And LRH also agrees with Tom in this quote:

    “In such a way, an individual with the ‘very best MEST universe, Mark 10,000 ears’ takes no responsibility for having implanted the sensation of sound in order to receive the sensation of sound. A preclear as he comes up the tone-scale more and more often catches himself doing this, and even though he does not know the principles involved (for no preclear has to be educated in Scientology to receive benefit from it), he recognizes that even in the case of a loud crash, his continuation of association from his environment permits him to perceive with others that a crash has taken place of objects which he with others continuously recreates solidly, and that he must actually cause for his own perception the sound of the crash.” (*Scientology 8-8008*)

  209. LOL

    Good, light-hearted reply. 🙂

  210. Are you serious now? You want to say that treating children with Prozac is better than Study Tech and TRs? What I know now, I do know it. I don’t have any Scientology or SS tattoos (strange selection of a name by the way, can you please clarify the initials?) and I am no fanatic. You just don’t know what you talking about?

    “only because of the huge discrepancy in the number of people who’ve engaged with some aspect of the mental health field vs. the number who’ve tried Scientology” ????

    The field of “mental health” is corrupt. What an assist or even vitamin C and other vitamin intakes can do is much more effective in many cases than just taking drugs. But you see, SS (please clarify those initials) this is a prison planet. I refuse to be a prisoner. Oh, and I don’t belong to the church anymore. I took what I needed and now I am gone.

  211. The answer to me is in the Tape the Free Being. A being to be free must be able to use 50% Intelligence and 50% Force. Why are you so afraid of using force? Because we have been indoctrinated to do so? The point is against who you are using force and for what purpose? And of course one should be ready to wrap up all the consequent flows and counter efforts from such usage of force. Going OT is NOT everything. Many times LRH spoke about Clear Cannibals. And I am not referring to anyone here. But we probably have seen even that. Training is the other 50% of the Bridge. I don’t know which is which. Which is Force? The training? And which is Intelligence? The Processing? Or vice versa? I would tend to think Processing is Force as it deals with Force. But Training is also needed and I think we are talking about many Cleared Cannibals or yes I can say OT Cannibals as people tend to forget too easily. Of course the Training and Processing comparison to Intelligence and Force is not 100% correct as you may say that an Auditor too, uses Intelligence but also confronts Force of the PCs bank and a Preclear uses Force as he/she confronts the bank but uses also Intelligence because he/she goes in session with a good auditor (lol).

  212. I like the idea that Indigo stage (and world view) transcends and includes all previous 5 stages. Archaic, warrior magic, traditional mythic, modern rational and post modern pluralistic. We are at the beginning of the Indigo transformation, he says. Interesting. The tipping point is also interesting with the 10% of the population percentage , as he says.

    Thank you Marildi for this video.

  213. Here was the discussion Pip, on Marty’s blog a few months ago regarding Ron’s claim to be the anti-christ.

    Here are some first hand stories from Jesse Prince regarding Ron claiming to be the anti-christ and it causing problems.

    Scroll down this page to OT VIII briefing to read the actual text of Ron’s stating himself to be the anti-christ

    And here is Ron’s “joke” about being the Princess of Darkness
    From PDC Tape #1: What is to be done on course.

    When I first heard it years ago I thought it strange to be joking about it. But when I read the OT VIII briefing materials it was all too strange. He was a strange man. Make up your own mind. He was a little too anti Jesus for my taste.

    Excerpt From Tape#1

    “Now they just start asking this; the person up to this moment has appeared perfectly a Homo sapiens. And they’re the Prince of Darkness from Venus or someplace you see and that there’s a terrible plot out against everybody in Scientology. And everybody better be very very careful to put up force screens so that nothing like this can get in and so. I’m going to send him back a letter. Uh… so… uh… you say you have some connection with the Prince of Darkness out there and you’re very worried about this. Who do you think I am?” Then he giggled on the tape.

  214. The complex brain structure and cerebral spinal centers, the plexuses as the medical profession call them, allow for a more advanced interaction with the body and universe.

    The highly developed brain and spinal centers in the human body help the soul who has a mind to interface with the body.

    The brain is the material organ and the mind is the non material part, the records of experience.

    So yes there is a difference. But the brain can’t be fully discounted like Ron did. There are a lot of new studies that show a lot about the brain.
    It is an organ that has quite a bit of interaction with the cognitive functioning of the mind and visa versa.

    But dyed in the wool Scientologists won’t get it because they would have to study up on real science.
    Ron discounted the brain as simply grey matter and condescendingly relegated it to the evil clutches of psyches.

    Contemporary science has some great breakthroughs. The brain is amazing and not the nothing that Ron says.

  215. Elizabeth Hamre

    Dear Brian You have no idea what I know of the brain.. but I am not here to convince you any way.. I don’t have the need or want.. Minden jot!

  216. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian… I have no quarrel with you, You are well educated and I have been well educated but my education has disappeared in a head on collision.
    Before the accident I had a IQ 189 almost photographic memory, now I have a IQ cannot be measured it is so high yet I can’t memorise one short sentence, writing one sort post for my blog takes me half a day. The left side of the brain was severely damaged got lose but the right side has taken over and that is the artistic or spiritual side.. I see things differently because of that reason.
    If not for auditing I would be in wheelchair, more likely a vegetable that was the future for me but I have not accepted that verdict…Please read the post in my blog after that you can tell me more of what one can do with malfunctioning brain Recovery from brain damage.

  217. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian no one can tell me that auditing do not work. but it has to be used. I don’t give one penny for the politics of scientology or DM. I don’t care how LRH behaved, what he had done as a man… But he put together a technology which has saved me from being a vegetable and being in the wheelchair with collapsed spine.. For the TECH I fight I will not let any one spit on that!

  218. FYI: a book recommendation for those interested in how a scientist looks at issues and phenomena related to his own religious/mental practice.

    Zen and the Brain, by James Austin, published by MIT Press.

    Austin is (or was, at the time of writing) an emeritus professor of neuroscience. He started practicing Zen in Japan in the 1960s.

    The book looks at mental phenomena that occur during meditation, and attempts to find possibly causes or explanations, by looking at similar mental phenomena with known causes as found in lesion studies, drug studies, etc.

    Sections of dense scientific information about anatomy and other neuroscience topics alternate with chapters describing Austin’s own subjective experiences during kensho.

    The table of contents includes a list of testable hypotheses, and the pages they appear on. (I don’t know if they’ve been tested yet.)

    It’s a well-written book, and a good read, but a huge amount of information. In hardcover it’s over 1000 pages, smallish print on roughly 8×11 sheets, without a lot of illustrations.

    Austin has gone on to write two more books about science and Zen.

  219. martyrathbun09

    Thanks for that Jon.

  220. CD, no doubt that in cultural and religious arenas morals and ethics are relative.
    But in the spiritual realm it is more absolute. Like the need for waterings a garden is absolute.
    I understand that in the name of morals and ethics, human beings have perpetrated evil on societies by way of “only way greatest good”

    But Dharma is a word that means cosmic duty. A responsiblility of souls:
    Do not steal, serve others, do not murder, tell the truth, live a balanced life, do unto others, live by principles before pleasure, do not use people for personal gain; greedily etc.

    There is a universal cosmic blueprint for optimum human behavior and even super human behavior (transcendental).
    Materialists are somewhat wary of this because of all the harm done in name of ethics and morality by militaristic religio-political ideologies.
    But on inspection and study of the adepts from all spiritual perspectives, we find a universal benevolence, a code of living that nutures forward evolutionary momentum.

    The corollary of this is obvious: there are some behaviors that are contrary to spiritual growth.
    Ron did not adhere to these basic entry level spiritual blueprints. To him morals were an impediment to power:”we are not moralists”
    Thus he lied, thus he harmed people, thus he was greedy for power and money, betrayed close family and friends for personal gain.
    Do unto others: how can this be bad? It is universal

  221. Sweet, Reminds me of an ongoing project the Dalai Lama has with the University of Winsconsin:

  222. Elizabeth Hamre

    CD…. judgment .. one can only judge from the view point of the SELFs how one feels.

  223. Elizabeth Hamre

    is that so….

  224. christianscientology

    Brian, I would like to recommend a book to you, it is called “From Onions to Pearls” by Satyam Nadeen (available from Amazon). The theme of the book is that there are no wrong turnings in life. When you come to a fork in the road of life there is no point in agonising over which path to take. Both are equally right, for even the wrong path if taken will have a lesson to be learnt and that in turn will lead to another fork.

    Scientologists and ex-Scientologists need to realise everything is as it should be, all one can do is what is right at the time. When we start “praising God in all circumstances” our circumstances will shift. LRH said “never regret yesterday, life is in you today, and you make your own tomorrows”.

    In my experience people who have been exposed to the technology of Scientology are some of the most interesting people one could wish to meet. On the other hand endlessly hearing about their regrets can get a little tiresome.

  225. christianscientology

    Interesting post Elizabeth, only he who loves UNCONDITIONALLY has the right to judge, and although that would be technically the followers of The Lord Jesus Christ, we must be constantly aware of “removing the speck in our brother’s eye and ignoring the plank in our own eye”.

    Incidentally Heaven and Hell are states of consciousness and the only burning that is done is the ASISING of ours or another’s LIES.

  226. Pip, I know you have read this. You posted recently. So what do you think about this? Ron and his anti Christ writings?

  227. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip.. right you are.. the ”specks” can be handled in sessions, but in session one goes because one knows one is wrong and has no pride and in there willingly gives up the specks because the ”specks” is the pride.

  228. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip…. I have realised some years back that personal reality how one perceives do not effect what they view-perceive. If one looks at a rose… no matter what one thinks of that rose, that rose remains as it was created: a rose…

  229. Brian: “So what do you think about this? Ron and his anti Christ writings?”

    My view is that we should not just instantly react to the word “anti-Christ.” We need to know more about its actual meaning – and the meaning of “Lucifer”. In this video is a scholarly overview of the related history, explained in easy-to-understand layman terms. It completely supports what LRH wrote in that OT VIII briefing, where he stated:

    “This anti-Christ represents the forces of Lucifer (literally, the ‘light bearers’ or ‘light bringer’), Lucifer being a mythical representation of the forces of enlightenment…

    “…Yet in certain passages and esoteric interpretations of the Bible (much of which has been taken out and effectively suppressed for centuries) as well as the Cabbalah, the truth reveals itself quite nicely for the clever and the ungullible.”

    Jesus himself was a “light bringer” – i.e. a “Lucerferian.”

  230. christianscientology

    Hi Brian

    Thank you for posting that material concerning both what LRH has supposedly said and written on the subject of Anti-Christ the character of Jesus and Lucifer.

    It took a little while for me to reply because I must confess although I had heard this information in the past no-one had specifically brought it to my attention.

    I agree on the surface it is very emotive stuff, and is not in character with what I had come to know of Ron; having said that I do believe that Ron had a dark side as indeed we all have. Certain apparent facts that I am aware of does to some degree moderate this material.

    1. In Royal Arch Masonry the title Grand Architect of the Universe is replaced with the name LUCIFER.
    2. There seems to be some evidence that supports the idea that there may never have been a HISTORICAL JESUS.
    3. There is the possibility that LRH had, in later years, become POSSESSED by dark forces, either physically of physically.

    I am not so much attracted to the personality of LRH but to the technology he developed. Like him I have a “LOVE OF UNDERSTANDING” however there is evidence that his love of understanding sometimes was interrupted by his EGO, that is why I choose to put LOVE before UNDERSTANDING, for you can love understanding, but you cannot understand love.

    Thank you for making this information available and I recognise you are a man of “good intentions”, only as my dear old mum used to say “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”


  231. christianscientology

    Nice post AnonIndie, I look forward to when you feel the time is right for you to “nail your colours to the mast”


  232. christianscientology

    Thanks for your post LTC Forever. Is that another way of saying LTC FOREVER? One of my great sadness’s is losing contact with people I had ARC with when in ‘The Church.”


  233. christianscientology

    Got that Elizabeth, thanks, Love Pip

  234. christianscientology

    Hi Elizabeth

    Have you come across “A Course in Miracles”? The first lesson in “The Work Book” is, “NOTHING I SEE MEANS ANYTHING”. Some would say if we have really understood this lesson, we would have understood the whole Course.

  235. Elizabeth Hamre

    I have.. but I did not do the course, I did not see anything in it 🙂

  236. Thank you Mirildi and Pip for your reply.

  237. christianscientology

    Mmmm! Interesting

  238. Elizabeth Hamre

    What is interesting? 🙂

  239. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip this is for you copied from my blog. What love and hate is: A delicious subject.
    On this Planet those words are used like money given for exchange: Barter with. Which one of those words is being used depends on what kind of simulation is incoming, what the person receives therefore the responds would be accordance with that stimulation. There are many levels different degree on love adoration admiration etc. and the same goes on the opposite side on that scale: dislike-hate repulsion loathing, disgust etc… Example: received a dangerous negative communication which jeopardises that persons existence survival: with that FEAR IS TRIGERED when that happens that person goes into defensive aggressive mode and arms himself: uses words to frighten that horrible person away: I will cut you open and will hang your guts up on the nearest tree to dry and will use your gut as the string on my guitar! But I will eat your liver first [gee, that is not so healthy diet: the liver if full of chemicals; oh well to each his own!]
    Or just simply gets his bow and arrow and shoots that fear-provoking bastard through the heart: fast solution for the problem.[ believing if the body has stopped working than all is well, and that believe is the illusion which blocks off the earlier belief,; fear]
    Or Person withdraws becomes small, displaying helplessness, being weak fragile, powerless: with that expresses: Look pal, I will not harm you in any way…
    Or offers bribe sweetener of some kind… now that mode of defence is very common among humans: you can’t hate me if I give you this!!!!! [ I even married you, make you my partner! this is of course on example ]
    Simple solutions amongst the Planets occupants have demonstrated incredible diverse ways to eliminate those frightening opponent who has gotten into their personal space.
    Me, personally what do I do when my toes are stepped on? I just simply tell the person I will roast them over the hot coal of the pit, and lick their bones clean: of course I no longer eat human flesh since that went out of vogue here and I some time ago back on the track have switched over to veggies… but I love painting with words make it look like a big drama.[ I have sessions to eliminate those consideration of which I find restrictive, unwanted in any ways.] It seems the word ‘’Hate’’ is used for black mail purposes on this Planet, since no one wants to be hated disliked, so in order to be not ’’hated’’ and to be LOVED again one complies with the ‘’haters’’ demands ultimatums.
    Rotten condition is when one gives up ones believes ones integrity in order to belong, to be accepted, to remain within the fold. UGH ugly when one has to compromises ones reality: when one believes one has too; that is the problem, the ARCB.
    Bloody Hell, what one will do in order to be loved, included, accepted and understood and AKNOWLEDGED for being present: most of all that one is EXISTING, real, is mind boggling!
    How about LOVE!!!!! That word is the most miss-used, beaten to death concept existing on this planet: OVER USED AND ABUSED!
    What people use it for and how they see what loves means, and believe in, those considerations holds the collective agreements also on the same topic what love really means is beyond belief…
    Mommy, I love you if you buy me that toy, I love because you sent me those tickets to the Rose Bowl.
    I love you because you are the best: provided the roof over my head, bought me designers clotting, taking me to Acapulco or because you are a greatest lover who ever been in my bed.
    I love you because you are beautiful, great cook, you listens to me and don’t interrupt, love you because you have lots of money and you have biceps the size of half football.
    I love you because you say I am great, the best, no one is better than I, and you chose me from the many others, I love you simply because you adore me… !!!!
    And I will love you for ever for that diamond ring you just put on my finger…..OHHHHHHHH and lets not even mention that condo you have put on my name!
    But all that love is given for exchange…. Not freely….
    I wonder if love existing on this planet how it feels what it is real like and not being connected to anything at all on this Planet? [One can observe the least aberrated kind of love-affection among animals groups, families]
    In my reality ‘’love-hate’’ the whole scale of sensations-emotions can be as-ised and those realities which are connected to WHY THE PERSON LOVES-HATES: those reason for stimulations that loving-hate feeling that energy mass which too is the part of the Bank can be handled in sessions and it should be in order for one to really understand what is LOVE means outside of the MEST Universe where there are no connections –stimulations existing..
    Love here is the heavy energy since it existing here on this Planet as a pleasure moment.
    PS: But love-affinity does exist here when there is sharing the same reality, the same goals and where no evaluation is but allowing beingness… Allowing beingness is love in my reality.
    PSPS: Pleasure moments are the heaviest trap in existence, since their addictive nature lures the being back over and over, and the being in fact continually search out those actions- which produces by having= the experiences of pleasure… by seeking out the pleasure moment as ”good” have become on activity which is worth living for, without pleasure life has no value, has become meaningless.
    Pleasure Moments can be handled regardless of their nature, since the pleasure moments are just doing-ness sensations, vibrations feelings desires moods wishes wants needs cravings hungers thirsts and all are implanted material same as the rest, nothing more than considerations-assumptions.
    In my reality, all conditions can be audited out regardless.. I speak from experience gained on this topic in sessions.
    Pleasure moments are the other side of the unwanted items, the dislikes… but they too are part of the MEST universe.. they are solid considerations which imprisons the being in the MEST.
    Love when all the existing considerations are as-ised than with that the reasons why we love are erased and from then on love is: it encompasses the Universe and that is the power which the spiritual-entity is… allows beingness with that.
    Love, expressing some form of love toward the other persons is a kind of acknowledgement, acceptance, and recognition for that person’s existence: yes I see you, I know you, You are here, we share Universes!
    But again this is my reality.

  240. Wow, just read this now Elizabeth. Actually haven’t been on this blog down here for a while. Just let me say I completely understand and appreciate what auditing has done.

    It may not seem like it but I completely support Scientologists to use benevolent Scientology. The truth is the truth.

    I have even asked Marty a while back to recommend an auditor for an OT 7 friend.

    My beef is with Ron and some doctrines that hurt people, not with the truth as experienced by us through the application of any spiritual technique.

    Your experience must have changed everything for you; forever.

    I have scored a movie about near death experience, and conscious dying. The stories of people that made it out of burning planes and their face mest up from fire but they are now incredible spiritual beings who laugh at death. Met the Dalai Lama and help framed questions for him regarding near death and actual death.

    Intervied Elizabeth Kubler Ross, Dr. Raymond Moody; blew my mind.

    I support you in your stand for benevolent Scientology. You remind me of Oracle. She is a powerful wise women.

    Thank you for sharing your story. I am honored that you did.

  241. christianscientology

    Hi Elizabeth

    What was interesting to me was that you seemed to dismiss ACIM with a sort of “done that got the tee shirt” type response. What got me studying the Course was the statement “THE BLAMELESS CANNOT BLAME”. That is when I realised the depth of this particular teaching, and that if I am blaming another there is something in me that needs addressing.


  242. christianscientology

    Dear Elizabeth

    Thank you for sharing your reality with me. You start by comparing LOVE and HATE as if they are in some way opposite. For me there is no opposite to LOVE however the absence of LOVE is FEAR. It is a bit like LIGHT and DARK. There really isn’t such a thing as DARKNESS. Darkness is in truth an absence of LIGHT.


  243. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian.. thank you and here is something about importance and value. it is from my blog. importance..important… value=FEAR
    Important, having importance, making something important is done by “thinking and believing” those possessions which we own have value..and they do have value..!! simply because we say so..
    The value is agreed upon assigned reality and there is no more to what ”value” is.
    Example: 1 carat perfect diamond in the jewelry store is about $ 40000.00 that value exist the value because the diamonds value is controlled by the cartel in fact that diamonds true value is $200.00
    Well… important: having importance and value: believing in those thoughts, holds those belief in space forever and a day… or till confronted.

    Example having life= believing that body is the self and the self only exist long as the body exist.
    Living= continual creation+ one believes that there is past and future.
    Being somebody=recognised and agreed upon bunch of considerations what is existence, what is being somebody, usually means what that being is Doing: I am a doctor, I am a gardener. NO those are not the Theta but doing-ness.
    Owing things to which ”having value or important ” is assigned with those considerations established one automatically has GAINED FEAR = fear exist because there is worry it might be that important valuable object will become lost or stolen and that important thing.. persons somehow will disappear.. and therefor that valuable persons or items wont be wont among our possessions=havingness..

    Fear only exist because the thought is attached to a items which can be anything including body -person that is valuable=important.. one can’t do without because life is not worth living if one dont own it, have it!
    When one confronts the compounded considerations-agreements galore: why one holds the universe so valuable and important and why those consideration of ”value–importance” were attached to some beliefs and solid items than these values-importance’s will melt away and at the same times and the “fear to will be evaporate for ever”.
    Value.. Importance is same as Beauty which only exist in the eyes of the beholder.
    Confront anything important, look into why something is held so valuable-important and in that moment of confrontation the meanings will erase- vanish.
    That is a good indicator that you have believed that Illusion are real and on the other hand If you are happy contented playing the MEST games.
    BUT by all means do not give up the your valuable-important considerations because without them you wont have a game….

  244. Elizabeth Hamre

    PIP absence of love is not fear.. Never have been never will be. Please read this post. importance..important… value=FEAR
    Important, having importance, making something important is done by “thinking and believing” those possessions which we own have value..and they do have value..!! simply because we say so..
    The value is agreed upon assigned reality and there is no more to what ”value” is.
    Example: 1 carat perfect diamond in the jewelry store is about $ 40000.00 that value exist the value because the diamonds value is controlled by the cartel in fact that diamonds true value is $200.00
    Well… important: having importance and value: believing in those thoughts, holds those belief in space forever and a day… or till confronted.

    Example having life= believing that body is the self and the self only exist long as the body exist.
    Living= continual creation+ one believes that there is past and future.
    Being somebody=recognised and agreed upon bunch of considerations what is existence, what is being somebody, usually means what that being is Doing: I am a doctor, I am a gardener. NO those are not the Theta but doing-ness.
    Owing things to which ”having value or important ” is assigned with those considerations established one automatically has GAINED FEAR = fear exist because there is worry it might be that important valuable object will become lost or stolen and that important thing.. persons somehow will disappear.. and therefor that valuable persons or items wont be wont among our possessions=havingness..

    Fear only exist because the thought is attached to a items which can be anything including body -person that is valuable=important.. one can’t do without because life is not worth living if one dont own it, have it!
    When one confronts the compounded considerations-agreements galore: why one holds the universe so valuable and important and why those consideration of ”value–importance” were attached to some beliefs and solid items than these values-importance’s will melt away and at the same times and the “fear to will be evaporate for ever”.
    Value.. Importance is same as Beauty which only exist in the eyes of the beholder.
    Confront anything important, look into why something is held so valuable-important and in that moment of confrontation the meanings will erase- vanish.
    That is a good indicator that you have believed that Illusion are real and on the other hand If you are happy contented playing the MEST games.
    BUT by all means do not give up the your valuable-important considerations because without them you wont have a game….

  245. martyrathbun09

    Can you simply provide links to your blog posts for now on? Thanks.

  246. Elizabeth Hamre

    PIP you have given your reality how you see the J… you have given it without me asking so here is my reality how I see that person. By reading this you will understand our path are not the same and they do not take us to the same place. The Magic Wand which takes away all with one wave of the hand: only one needs to believe.
    Scientologist, many of them left the church because they become disenchanted, felt that the bridge is a scam, they believe that LRH lied and spirituality is a hoax none existent state.

    These are the persons who had very little auditing or gone up on the Bridge and made it all the way to the top, and even attested to OT8.

    Every level while being audited or in solo auditing : when these levels are finished one made to believe because IT IS WRITTEN that one has attained total freedom, regained all abilities IF ONE HAS A MAJOR COGNITION ON THAT SUBJECT.

    That belief is far from the truth: the cognition that major realization one has at the level where the auditing has occurred, that REALIZATION MEANS ONLY THAT THE PERSON HAS BECOME AWARE OF THAT there is a DIFFERENT REALITY EXISTING.

    But that FIRST Awareness is only the beginning what one can see-realize if that subject would be confronted from every side.

    So many leaves the church disappointed and no wonder: since man has to belief in something in order to have some guidance, some of these people go back to the OLD well-worn path of Religious beliefs because that is better than nothing.: the void of the unknown.

    My point is here so far many has left old religious believes behind when entered in to the CofS. in hope to find what they have been looking for: knowing very well what they have experienced till now in any of those philosophies were not the road out: did not bring that spiritual freedom they have hoped it could be achieved..

    Of course the disappointments are great.. huge and hard to endure, after all these people have been practiced every kind of beliefs went into huge amount of agreement of different Religious Orders this Planet [on the track] and so far not one of these ORDERS offered the way out of what they were looking for: the freedom from the suppression of MEST; the effects of having human bodies and beliefs.

    But those who have left and not continued with the auditing these people have given up so easy; it seems they went in to the CofS looking for the MAGIC WAND which would erase all, including all their aches and pains, all the unwanted and become free from their sins their shame-guilt their fears and all the O/W’s and can start all over as new shinny beings free of MEST be out once and for all and continue on their marry ways with life.

    Interestingly some of this scientologist dashed back into Jesus’s arms because there all is forgiven: after all he has died for your sins, has given up his life in order to save your ass burning in Hell and it is written when you returned into the fold all the sins of the past is erased… no longer these sins are in effect and with that one achieves the state of all knowing become pure as GOD’s breath… but one must remain between the walls of that teaching because if not than one again walks the path of sin.

    In other words, when one believes in the teaching of Jesus than is in the state: KEYED OUT OF THE EGO= THE MEST U. and if one fall back: sins in any way than suffers again the effects of Hells which is the MEST Universe.

    The words of Jesus’s is the most powerful and no other Order promises the same and because how it is worded is the MAGIC WAND; erases all: and when one fallows that dogma keeps to that teaching …hehehe… than one is taken care of, no more worries, one never has to confront ones nasty-evil O/W’s=sins of the past, one do not have to take responsibility for the ACTIONS one has committed.. and never have to think for self again since God provides what is needed: and never have to bother to think in order to figure out what is right or wrong.

    One is washed clean of his past and all that shit has been erased with one wave of the WAND!

    By going into agreement; one gives up and assigns the power to that mighty, gives up the free will to choose: the determination, also the awareness that is self, what that self is able to do, the knowledge and all the experiences one ever had and at the same time gives up all other game conditions: when can enter into causatively.

    OH.. and whatever happens one can blame freely: god did it all!

    Yes, that belief by accepting that teaching with that the person who goes into agreement joins the group: becomes a controlled robot enslaved by the very belief that one is free yet just walked into a well thought -out powerful implant.

    That is what one wave of the Magic Wand can do. Hehehe… my reality. [it is from my blog]

  247. Elizabeth Hamre

    My comment shows that we really don’t have much in common.

  248. Brian, have you experienced any Dianetics and/or Scientology?

  249. I have gained a new respect for you. Actually we are in agreement. It is the two dimensional world of texting that only gets such a small amount of ourselves expressed here, that is an inaccurate picture of each other.

    I also had a sort of near death experience as a youth. I went from normal boy to a soul on a spiritual quest at the age of 16. I am now 61.

    My parents thought I was loosing my mind. There has not been a day since then that I have not gone within to experience the inner world of self. With it’s pageantry of past life experiences, deaths, suffering, joys, cosmic bodiless experiences, realizations and intuitive insights.

    In that regard you are my sister on the path. I get you now. Thank you for presenting yourself to me. I shall do the same in some future blog when it is in context.

    But realize this if you will: it is not the truths I have been protesting. It is the doctrines that harm people.

    There are still people coming out who need to be aware of their liberating critical powers.

    You have obviously made this practice your own. But there are those who are still true believers.

    My purpose is to make it ok for others to see the value in practices outside of the constricting regimentation that is Scientology.

    You are obviously not in that category.

    I send you love from across the airwaves Elizabeth.

    And as we say in my tradition: Namaste

    Nam- salutations or “I bow”
    aste- means light. the words astral or star comes from this Sanskrit.

    Namaste- I bow to the spiritual light within you 😉

    We are not these bodies, we are not these minds, we are not the emotions: We are Infinite Consciousness, timeless and deathless.


  250. Elizabeth Hamre

    Right.. will do. sorry ….

  251. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian thank you…I got it.. all of it……. sometimes back in my wonderings I walked into the universe of a being, who flashed a picture at me, which was light and it come from the center of the being, could be said in our terms here” from the hearth” and I was greeted ” I am what you are” and intention came with the light which was those who are pure they are open have nothing to hide. PS: I have come to this planet sort time back…. I was looking for something here and I found it.. I hope I can leave soon, drop this body.

  252. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian, I have read your post 3 times.. Few called me sister so far, I thank you for that. Hugs returned. I consider a pearl a cognition.

  253. christianscientology

    Oh Elizabeth

    “Value = FEAR” what are you saying “remove all value and you remove all fear”. I DON’T THINK SO!

    A useful acronym for fear is False Evidence Appearing Real.

    I say LOVE is the absence of FEAR, because the bible says “Perfect love casts out fear”. Actually A.R.C. ameliorates fear, to be free one has to be fearless and only PERFECT LOVE can bring about FEARLESSNESS.

    Love and ARC

  254. christianscientology

    Hi Elizabeth

    Are you on Skype, I would very much like to meet you face to face. We have much SIGNIFICANCE but little MASS, and as the old man said “for optimum learning we need a balance of mass and significance”. It would be fun to speak on Skype.

    Love Pip

  255. christianscientology

    Hello Elizabeth

    I do so enjoy communicating with sincere people, even if they are “sincerely misguided”.

    Firstly I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN in fact I agree with pretty much everything you have to say about Christianity.

    JESUS DID NOT COME TO START A NEW RELIGION he came to restore a relationship. Firstly between you and your maker and as a result between you and your fellow man. God is just another word for THETA, it is like THETA WITH PERSONHOOD, so THETA makes you in His image and likeness. You are THETA that is LOVE (but love cannot exist without PERSONHOOD). So out of THETA you BECAME A THETAN, that is an individuated unit of THETA. As a Thetan you can assume a VIEWPOINT hence space is created; for viewpoints create points of view and the definition of space is “VIEWPOINT OF DIMENSION”.

    The above is pure Scientology and yet this is what I get from the bible through “studying it in the fullest sense of the word”. Christians study the bible but not “in the fullest sense of the word”, that is why I am not a Christian because I study it with the study tech of Scientology. If all Christians were CLEAR there would not be thousands of Christian denominations and if all CLEARS were BORN AGAIN there would not be any divisions in Scientology. Christianity sanitises Scientology and Scientology modifies Christianity.

    Elizabeth I can pretty much guarantee you have never met/communicated with another “born again clear”. I do have a website; in fact, I have two – and I don’t shout about them because I am slightly embarrassed that they are so lacking in content. I am looking for someone to help me develop them.

    The bottom line is that if you have not met the “living Jesus” you really are not in a position to comment on him, but I can assure you that when the time is right YOU WILL MEET HIM.

    This is for you Elizabeth

    Love and ARC

  256. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip interesting what you right about love and fear. In 98 I was solo auditing the concept of”value” than I did the opposite sides “worthless” etc.. I have done extensive expanded lists on both needless to say I had immense amount of cognitions they were pouring in. After a major cog. There was nothing left to confront. I was flying for few weeks when I realised something was missing, something was not in my universe. It was than I realised I blown FREAR. It was very natural to be without fear yet it was new reality. Fear never returned, no stimulation can bring back fear. You believe what ever you like… I am truly fine with that… I have no reason or desire or compulsive need to change you or your believes.. If as you say PERFECT LOVE can bring about REASLESSNESS.. well I have attained that state of no state, since I believe that long as one talks of any state still talks of being something. even if that is called love.. The Infinite is Intangible but can do and be at the same moment of creation “NOW” that is all I have, that is all there is to have. IF I would be running into some one as your friend Jesus than we both would be somebody, and doing something.. I do Understand where you are at.. but that is not where you are at, only my reality … and the same goes for you … we cant see into others persons universe not even through the FILTER OF LOVE. PS; I don’t use Skype. but thank you for the kind invite.

  257. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip… If I ever have a cognition of the same content as you put love-jesus than I will accept that concept as truth.. but not until than.. By now I have seen for self have experienced that every concept-reality I ever believed in which was the teachings-beliefs of others when these were confronted in that moment they have vanished as-ised and from that a new reality emerged. The truth can not be as-ised.. Some concepts which I has come across sounded too different, I had no reality on them or could not belive in I have taken these in session and some vanished but some has remained. Than I have accepted those views as truth.

  258. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip… I have a friend who say a same thing as you do…or similar.. she believes in love, and everything has to be… her fears are so overwhelming that she be hurt that she uses LOVE as a blanket, a barrier a help to block her fears of being hurt by others. She spreads love like peanut butter on bread heavy.. To her this universe is a scary place and no matter where one looks, what one experiences that experience id painful so she protects her self with the love blanket.. Her reality, oh I am sure you tell me that is a wrong kind of love… But people use it as a armor. since the fear of the reality is toooo overwhelming.

  259. 11 years, 1 year in Sea Org.

    My criticisms are not directed at benevolent Scientology.

    My criticisms are towards those elements that harm and tend to create arrogant elitists by way of some of Ron’s written words and practices.

  260. LTC Forever

    I like some of the things you say about spirituality, but on Ron – I think it is rather difficult to pin down Ron’s position. It seems no matter what view you take on the man, you can always finding something that proves the opposite. Ron was quite an “illusive” man I would say. That’s why I tend to focus on the materials and the principles that they communicate. It is easier to see specific instances of contradiction that way or something specific I may disagree with.

  261. christianscientology

    No Elizabeth I would not say it is the “wrong sort of love”. Love is love but it can be mixed with fear, an amalgam. It sounds like your friend is somewhat “theety tweety”.


  262. christianscientology

    Elizabeth, just for your information when I had my conversion experience the next morning I went down to St Hill because I knew I had had a major shift in my thinking and wanted to record it at the Examiner.

    I picked up the cans and said “Jesus is alive today”, the examiner said “Thank you your needle is floating”.

    That is the last entry in my P.C. folder.


  263. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip thank you… it only shows what true for you is true for you..since we are exchanging our realities, here is one for you:
    I know that Gautama has a body and that body is alive now, its heart ticking on this I too would have F/TA at the examiner if I would go and attest . so what that could prove?
    Only that we all have our very own universe and it’s content is real to the owner of that universe.
    By the way Gautama and I we are pals… now how is that for a topic? Don’t spread this because the boys in white will come and put me in a very tight jacket and I am not Houdini. 🙂
    PS.. at the present time he has a very bad head cold…

  264. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip.. by all meas.. Ok by me.. what is your reality it is yours alone, I just don’t buy it… all you believers are fanatics and that is recorded in the history books. Even your old pal Jesus, was so hell bent proving that he was right, he let himself to be put to death, now how far one is willing to go to prove himself right?.. hehehe.. now, no one can top that goody, can we?

  265. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip.. I was waiting for that answer, you see I knew you would say that, you have not disappointed.. robotic answers are just that..always make self right and others wrong, has to be right, being right ensures the existence.

  266. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip… I been thinking about attestation… the examiners are not allowed to say anything other than what the needle is doing… that examiner routine is a good set up.. it acknowledges your reality as it is, regardless whatever that is…allowing beigness,

  267. christianscientology

    Oh Elizabeth when are we going to speak on Skype. With you and I we need some MASS to balance the SIGNIFICANCE.

    Also when pointing the finger it is as well to see where the other three fingers are pointing!

    Lots of love

  268. christianscientology

    Hi Elizabeth

    I am not sure one can have a reality of ONE since the definition of REALITY is AGREEMENT. How would that work, agreeing with one-self? Surely what you meant was what is TRUE for you is true.

    Yes indeed Jesus “let himself to be put to death” but not to prove he was right but GOD WAS RIGHT, and the proof that God is right is he rose from the dead after three days. No one else in the whole of recorded history has done that.

    Like most Christians you are concentrating on the CRUCIFIXTION rather than the RESURRECTION. Be warned THAT YOU RESIST YOU BECOME.


  269. christianscientology

    Hello again Elizabeth

    Are we sharing our TRUTHS or our REALITIES? Realities are what exist in the agreed upon universe – THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE, what exists in our own universes are not realities but truths for us. So if Gautama and you are ‘pals’ then that is fine with me, if that if true for you. You can only get put in a strait jacket if you insist what is true for you must be a REALITY.

    And incidentally if ‘he’ has a cold then I would suggest ‘he’ is P.T.S. and locates ‘the loss’.

    Get well soon


  270. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip.. I run out of realities.. truth is from cognations so what I right is the truth for me.
    I am well, you have a MU on that?

  271. Elizabeth Hamre

    Dear Pip… I have confronted all those what I resisted. In the NOW there is no resistance, In the NOW is simply is…

  272. Elizabeth Hamre

    In the now there are no fingers so cant point.

  273. christianscientology

    Hi Elizabeth

    I do agree with you the examiner provides a very useful service. However I am not sure he is acknowledging your reality, it is more he is acknowledging your COMMUNICATION. If that communication contains a COGNITION the meter will record it in terms of NO CHARGE on that particular item. A sort of what you have realised is TRUE FOR YOU.

    Do you have Skype?


  274. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip you right and I don’t use Skype.

  275. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip tell me…have you confronted the subject od agreement? if you have than tell me what is the agreement, what is the purpose of agreement and what having on agreement do to the subject will do to that subject? [ ps; I have written two post on that subject] I want to hear your understanding.

  276. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip.. no matter what comes my way, how you see the universe, how you like to express your self. it is fine with me… if we split hair let say to 10 ways.. having 10 spits now , we still don’t have more that 1 hair .I dont want to convince any one.
    and I still don’t use Skype I have not changed my mind since few hours back when I answered that question.

  277. Erzsebet.
    Do you use assessments in your search for items that need to be resolved? If so, how do you compile your subject or item list and what type of reads are you looking for? What type of cans are you using?

    I have found that near basic, conflicting purposes that I fully agreed with at the time will produce R/Ses, but when searching for the most basic underlying purposes, I get no reliable reactions. Any advices?
    ARCL, Mark

  278. Elizabeth Hamre

    mark… you can email or call me.

  279. Elizabeth Hamre

    mark.. this is a delicate matter… privately I tell you what I do… but when one is kicked by a mule one really feel that, no mistake can be made.. when one gets heavily stimulated by a incoming evaluation, a loss, when hell brakes lose, you cant miss that can you… and only one thing can be done.. take the heaviest and run with that. and just continue from there. till the last atom of that item and everything relates is disintegrated. very simple. very affective.

  280. I see your point LTC

  281. christianscientology

    Hi Elizabeth

    You ask me whether I have confronted the subject of agreement. Do you mean what is the basic agreement that caused the physical universe to come into being?

    I would suggest it came into being through the belief that MAN could be AUTONOMOUS FROM God, that we could CREATE independently of our creator, when in fact all we could do is MAKE a mess.


  282. christianscientology

    Thanks Elizabeth, that’s a pity you don’t use Skype, especially as it is free to both install and use.

    Although I have a mental picture of you, it would be interesting to add some mass to the significance.


  283. christianscientology

    Hi Elizabeth

    Since you are a life static and as such are NO-THING it does not matter how many times you divide it, it is still NO-THING. Zero over Zero equals Zero. And I am assured it is a lady’s prerogative to change her mind.


  284. Elizabeth Hamre

    Hi Pip.. what are we doing here care to explain? No matter what I say you give me on explanation that it is not valid because…….. etc.. etc… By the way ”’ lady” that consideration is just that. it is complied significances and it is a valance you wont find me using any of those valances here they have been confronted and as-ised. So is its counter part ” male– man” etc. those considerations also have been closely examined..Those are just basic valances which are implanted. If you care to take a closer look and examine those than you see they are there to separate, to behave as it is dictated, ”be lady like” etc.. be refined, be delicate, be beautiful, and few hundred other agreed considerations are in existence.. so you will not find a lady here or a female, only a body which is used as on anchor and nothing more. By the way, only a new cognition can change something in my universe.

  285. Elizabeth Hamre

    Hi Pip… go to face book, open the photos and you will find pictures of me in my garden and in the kitchen. One with the cat is the most recent one of the body, as for self I am invisible. 🙂
    And mass, what is only a consideration and it contains the same stuff as everything else.. nothing. there you go! 🙂

  286. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip… agreements what they do IS SOLIDIFY… more agreement there is on any given subject with that collected agreement its existence is established makes it permanent. LRH was brilliant.. that was on agreement, now he is a low life, a worthless useless blah blah…. Agreement, giving agreement to any one: oh you poor thing, you have suffered so much, etc. ensures the beliefs PLUSS collected agreements give power. More agreement one has on any given subject. those agreements establish that it is TRUE, it is REAL, must be so because every body agrees to it. so it got to be right the truth!!! Far from it. Agreements do not establish facts or truth and not even on the item that rocks are hard… 🙂

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