Overcoming Scientology Instilled Ignorance

Attempting to remedy Scientology instilled ignorance is a hazardous venture.  It can result in losing your job and having your family and friends harassed into abandoning you, and worse.  The resistance to truth can be so intense that in most cases the proponent of light is reduced to adopting the Scientology constructs of opponents, enemies, battle, and war.  Before long the seeker of truth becomes a mere ‘attacker’, over time becoming more and more like that which is attacking him and which seemingly by necessity he must attack in order to survive.

Scientologists – even many independent ones – have a habit of collapsing the ideas of  a) exposing corruption and lies to the light with b) attacking.  There is a reason for this.  Scientologists have been indoctrinated with the false idea that a=b when it comes to Scientology.  That then justifies the application of Hubbard’s hundreds of pages of war-upon-‘attackers’ technology.  Debate, even discussion, becomes impossible.  Scientologists are taught that argument is best performed by destroying the messenger of the idea (or truth) they oppose.  That is the ‘dead agent caper’ technology where the Scientologist becomes a one trick pony performing only ‘gotcha’ – that is, falsus in unum falsus in omnibus becomes the end all.  When ‘successful’ it justifies and perpetuates all  manner of falsehood and rotten corruption and abuse.

Part of overcoming the implantation of these falsehoods and the vow to fight to the death to protect the most astounding abuses is some honest contemplation of why such indoctrination is so intense and effective in Scientology.  Why was such false indoctrination introduced in the first place?  Why does it intensify over time, and intensify exponentially in the face of the most truthful, cathartic whistleblowing?  I think such contemplation will lead you to some answers you may at first find uncomfortable but ultimately will find liberating.

To those shining the light upon Scientology abuses, you may find you have better perspective, more equanimity and even credibility if you understand these Scientology games and take care not to fall prey to them.

“Ignorance does not yield to attack, but it dissipates in the light, and nothing dissolves dishonesty faster than the simple act of revealing the truth.” – David R. Hawkins

“Publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants; electric light the most efficient policeman.”   –  Louis Brandeis


467 responses to “Overcoming Scientology Instilled Ignorance

  1. Words of wisdom Lloyd.

  2. Interested Party

    This is true but it is absolutely not exclusive to the cult of scientology. Wherever an individual or small group thinks they can benefit from deception this is likely to be found. I’ve been studying this very phenomena for the last 10 years and it is what eventually led me to apply it to my own church.

  3. In Scientology one is basically trying to protect one’s ego. Unfortunately Scientology has maneuvered itself to become part of that ego.

    Scientology is a mixture of high ideas that must be protected and sleazy ideas that are used to protect them.

  4. So true Marty. The more open I have become about my experiences, the more people comment back to me that I am being negative, or harsh and some have even used the word attack. Truth doesn’t mean, niceties. It means what is. That’s all. When you tell the truth about Scientology and about what happened to you, especially to someone like me who lived through being on the RPF for 3 years, there is nothing nice to say about it. That is that sad news. There should be at least SOMETHING nice. Like we had good food or fun or something. Unfortunately there is nothing. This is the elephant that no one wants to admit is in the room. And it is hard for people to look at the fact that while they were in their little auditing rooms, having “wins” and donating millions of dollars to “Help” people all around the world and the universe and all that that behind all that “happiness” is a deep, dark void where people are tortured, forced to have abortions, forced to divorce their spouses, made to do hard labor, living in horrific conditions who are denied life saving health care, all in the name of SCIENTOLOGY. That is what is. It is gross and horrible. LRH started it, Miscavige continues it and all that donated money funds it. That is the truth.

  5. Amen.

    I am getting such a good education here on this blog when in dialog. Not the least of which is patience.

    Another lesson for me is the navigating through the rocky shoals of faith and belief.

    There is a thought from Yoganada that makes sense to me when in discussion of matters of faith with people of intelligence: “feelings travel faster than thought.”

    It happens sometimes that a very intelligent person is arguing an unreasonable thesis. Sometimes I think, “how can they think this way?”

    Well, the concept that “feelings travel faster than thought” answers this for me. And Madison Ave certainly has found value in this regarding sales as maninly an emotional reaction.

    When two people are in heated dialog and one of them resorts to name calling and demonizing, that is when I have to step back and say to myself,” this person is having their feelings govern their intellect.” And at that point the discussion is dead.

    “If anyone can show me, and prove to me, that I am wrong in
    thought or deed, I will gladly change. I seek the truth, which
    never yet hurt anybody. It is only persistence in self-delusion
    and ignorance which does harm.” — Marcus Aurelius

  6. Excellent Marty, and very applicable to recent discussions,

    Any body of knowledge must be viewed in it’s minutest detail and in it’s overall perspective. Take a group of 1000 bits of data, Highlight any 100 bits as an example of the whole, and the perspective of the whole is skewed. Any 100 bits.

    Point out as most important, any small part of Scn., and it could be misconstrued as a school for magicians. Take another section and it could appear as an expansion of Sun Tzu’s Art of War. Another and you get Freud’s work. Another and you will see within it a CIA instruction manual. Eastern religion, psychiatric therapy, etc. etc.

    This is magnified by a.)the pre existing mindset of the individual doing the picking and b.)of the person listening/reading from person a.

    Example; Kirstie Alley was a funny and attractive (to some) actress before she insulted Leah Remini. She is just as funny and looks the same since. She just doesn’t ‘seem’ as funny as before. Dr. Sheldon Cooper’s personality may not appear the same after learning that the actor is gay. Once a mindset is acquired, it alloys your opinions and thoughts from then on.

    Expand your understanding of ‘viewing data in present time’ and ‘acquired wisdom’. These two things are not incompatible.

  7. Excellent.

  8. “The onlry good thing in Scientology are the people”


  9. Elizabeth Hamre

    ideas are all equal in value until some one adds their own reality… values… importance to those ideas than those ideas become high ides or sleazy till than they were just thoughts-considerations.

  10. Elizabeth Hamre

    It is only persistence in self-delusion
    and ignorance which does harm.” — Marcus Aurelius
    that is Marty’s post is about THE PERSISTENCE bit. why one continues with the same: pushing ones ideas beliefs and not examine why one is doing that..

  11. “The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.”

    ― Gloria Steinem

  12. Wow, excellent post! You made the two major points. One is basically that the whole is often not being looked at and thus a correct judgment of the isness can’t be made. Then you wrote: “This is magnified by a) the pre-existing mindset of the individual doing the picking and b) of the person listening/reading from person a).”

    The above occurs on both “sides” of the discussions, to the point where not only is there over-defending of the bad aspects of Scientology by those who see a lot of good in its basics, there is also over-criticizing by those who have recognized the bad and then start to be unable to see any good – due to their new mindset. In both cases, there are installed filters, whether self-installed or other-installed.

  13. Luis Agostini

    From my own experience, what liberated me from being firmly entrenched in Ron’s universe was my realization that I NEEDED Scientology to be what Ron made it out to be. That I could not achieve through any other source or by my own means.

    I placed myself, my whole eternity and my universe, in Ron’s world because of his promise of unlimited power, total freedom (especially from suffering, low self esteem, and limitations), and static serenity in his hands.

    To confront its flaws, to take a viewpoint that threatened that so extremely needed eternal lasting condition, was just too devastating as the alternative was the horribly depressing viewpoint that there was no way out of the pain and suffering and hopelessness that not having a way out produced.

    My point is that, to me, it is important to be communicating, that the first step in leaving Ron’s (Scientology’s) universe and be living in one’s own, is to become self aware of one’s NEED, of one’s obsession and/or compulsion with it, and/or attachment to it, and so one can start owning up to the within-oneself-conditions that produce those needs, and allow oneself, for example, to become indoctrinated with a false idea.

    Then, I am sure, one can begin the very reachable condition of empowering oneself to achieve the discovering, establishing and folloiwng of one own’s path to achieving the conditions one wants within oneself and in one’s life.


  14. BasketballJane wrote:

    And it is hard for people to look at the fact that while they were in their little auditing rooms, having “wins” and donating millions of dollars to “Help” people all around the world and the universe and all that that behind all that “happiness” is a deep, dark void where people are tortured, forced to have abortions, forced to divorce their spouses, made to do hard labor, living in horrific conditions who are denied life saving health care, all in the name of SCIENTOLOGY. That is what is. It is gross and horrible. LRH started it, Miscavige continues it and all that donated money funds it. That is the truth.

    This ^^^ is the quote of the year. This seared my hair back and brought tears to my eyes.

    You are absolutely right, B-Ball-Jane.

    Thank you for saying it.

    And don’t stop saying it until everyone has heard it and understood it completely.


  15. One thing that helped me understand the seemingly neverending ratcheting up of the craziness was something I heard in a lecture where LRH said that a stuck flow never flows weaker, it only flows stronger. That seems counterintuitive, but when I observed that to be true at the Int base, I knew my days being the effect of that were numbered. A few months later I was gone. DM is running on a stuck flow and I think that will flow harder and harder until it suddenly stops flowing at all. The backwash will be something to behold.

  16. When the time comes (and it will be perfect timing) This “church” will fall and all who thought they were the only ones in the Universe that knew the “truth” will wake up just like most of us did…..Its all a big fat lie, it’s a story written by a good writer who also happened to be insane.

  17. Come to think of it, there’s another element, expressed by a Buddhist friend of mine just yesterday although it wasn’t in reference to Scientology discussions but to discussion in general. He said that he had been reading some discourses of the Buddha and that one of them talked about people with “razor-sharp minds” who are usually present in a debate or a discussion, and who are merely trying to prove rightness or show their mental skill – and they are always “the side-show.” OMG, I would say the Buddha made a very good observation.

  18. Great “quote” CD. You’re still one of my favorite critics. 🙂

  19. Interested Party

    I can’t agree, at least not for myself, that I reject truth because of what it will cost me to accept the truth. It’s a common argument but I’ve never experienced it and I don’t believe I’m superior to anyone else in this regard.

    I”m currently “under the radar” as there are friends I am in comm with that I hope to influence. It is also the case that I have business interests that make it against my interest to come out in the open. That is inconvenient but it has no bearing at all on what I can see as truth.

    My first exposure to the Tampa Bay Times series when Marty first came out was in late 2011. I rejected the idea of the midget being violent because it was so far removed from what should be the truth. It just didn’t add up to me. How could everyone else around him accept that kind of behavior? It also didn’t fit with him being the hero who won the war with the IRS. The value I considered the tech to have had no bearing on this whatsoever.

    If I had bothered to read the Freedom Mag response at the time it would have woke me up as right there it was testified that there had indeed been violence at the Int level on many occasions. That would have had me completely re-evaluate right then because I was only having trouble conceiving of the violence and not who was actually doing it.

    So what did lead to my eventual discovery of the truth were many other little things that I could see all around me. The staff member who didn’t just dismiss the Midget stories as unreal but built up the creep as a great man rather than an SO member doing his job. There was a definite attempt to create the impression of him as a hero. Then I noticed on the FB Scientologist group several posts from the same person using the phrase “our leader”. This was alarming to me. For even if he were doing a great job it was so over the top for those on the inside to consider him “our leader”. It was perfectly understandable for the media to use that phrase but for us?????? Hello????

  20. If all ideas are of equal value, then there is no such thing as reasoned discrimination.

    And morality is anything goes because all things are equal.

    I disagree Elizabeth. Due reflection upon the nature of ideas reveals a difference that can determine a value.

    Having an idea to steal, is not equal to having an idea to heal.

    Somehow the word judgement has been redifined as judgemental in popular culture.

    Being able to tell the difference between ideas, and therefore make a value judgement, is the very essence of reason and logic.

  21. Hi Luis! Very good post.

    Ironically, one good thing that resulted from the very bad turn Scientology made was to gain some insight with regard to allowing ourselves “to become indoctrinated with a false idea” and (quoting you again) “begin the very reachable condition of empowering oneself to achieve the discovering, establishing and following of one own’s path to achieving the conditions one wants within oneself and in one’s life.” Amen to that!

  22. STUCK FLOW, 1. a flow which runs too long in one direction can “stick.” It will not flow longer in that one direction. It now has to have a reverse flow run. (HCOB 5 Oct 69)

  23. You dropped out (conveniently?) … self-delusion and ignorance

    Marty’s post is about overcoming instilled ignorance …

    You confuse me with your posts which seem on the face – thoughtful. But they nearly always have a slight curve to them.

    Is English your native language? Someone a while ago called you
    Erzibet (possibly spelled incorrectly) which is Elizabeth in Hungarian.

    If English isn’t your native language then it makes sense that the nuances are missed.

  24. “Falsus in Uno, Falsus in Omnibus is a legal maxim which means false in one thing, false in everything. A Roman legal principle indicating that a witness who willfully falsifies one matter is not credible on any matter. The underlying motive for attorneys to impeach opposing witnesses in court: the principle discredits the rest of their testimony if it is without corroboration.”

    It’s interesting that the principle works in reverse as well. True in one thing equals true in everything else. That is what hooked me and kept me relatively in line for many years. I couldn’t talk to girls, couldn’t really talk to anyone comfortably. I studied psychology in university, studied Krishnamurti, practiced TM. Very little change.
    Did the TRs under an excellent supervisor and for the first time in my life I arrived in present time, was very comfortable and could talk to girls. Even in retrospect I can’t see myself having any other reaction than to be thrilled with the results.

    I read the definition of “thetan.” The being himself, not his body or name or mind or the physical universe or anything else…that which is aware of being aware. This blew me away. It fully resonated with me at the time and still does. Truth.

    This then leads the “ignorant” (which I certainly was at the time) to blindly accept all manner of dubious data and outright crap. Differentiation goes out the window because of the false idea that if “a” is true then “b” must also be true.

    Took me a long time to get out of that trap. 35 years of lying to myself about a lot of stuff, takes a bit of time to sort out the truth.

    I don’t really share much yet in terms of what I’ve sorted out. Still a work in progress; just my observations from what I’ve found so far. But I will share this: I love delivering utterly client-centered, non judgemental auditing to people who want the end result of the grade. I love putting the focus on PC interest above all else. From my own hard won experience I’ve deconstructed much and incorporated what I myself believe will be workable. No a=b=c. Each datum and each process evaluated strictly against my own observation.

    The constant stream of information which exposes the truth of various data and events will, in the end, move everyone up a little higher with a minimum of casualties. To all those who provide this data, my thanks. In my mind it takes some serious personal strength to respond to vicious attacks with a calm revelation of truth.

  25. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian.. those are all just words.. and one can twist those any way one likes too. I do understand the difference what makes things valuable or not.. the belief in them and nothing more.
    Brian words are empty sounds and that is my reality. but we are in different universes , have different realities. Brian :”Being able to tell the difference between ideas and therefore make a value judgement, is the very essence of reason and logic. for a human and that too is the fact.

  26. Hi Marildi –

    Can you give me a real life example of a “stuck flow”?

    Not as a metaphor for someone’s behavior, or a way to think characterize David Miscavige’s actions, but a real life physical phenomenon that is actually a “stuck flow”.

    Because energy is required for any flow. And when that energy runs out, then the flow stops. And that’s all there is to it.

    So in real life, concrete terms that don’t require anyone believing in any Scientology, show me a stuck flow.


  27. Robert Almblad

    Wow… very well said

  28. Elizabeth Hamre

    yes .. hungary is the place and the real name Erzsebet and I do not claim perfection. Thank you for explaining .. good of you. but again we all read what we read.

  29. I believe we are in different universes in the game of individuality. But in the grander scheme there is Oneness/Unity/God/Static.

    To have a game, there must be separation. So I agree with you. And in that regard there is difference.

    To play the game of chess there must be one board separated into many squares.

    Are there individual different squares on the board? Yes. But the difference is imaginary. In truth there is only one square on the chess board. The whole board itself.

    The Unified Field of all creation is that board. And space and time is the imaginary boundaries that give us the game of life. I am here and you are there. I think this and you think that. Both of us being limited by what our respective experiences dictate by way of what the 5 senses have stored as data to be computed with.

    Bit it is my experience, in meditation, that we can throw the salt statues of our frozen individuality into the ocean and thus dissolve into the Unified Field or Cosmic Consciousness or Nirvana, Satori etc.

    I have learned from the masters and from my own experience that we are both: The Unified Field of Undifferentiated Consciousness and individual souls at the same time.

    One state is Unmanifested and Undifferenciated and one exists in nature as externalized existence with individuality.

    It took me decades of practice to get this. I am still getting it. I think it goes on forever.

  30. Ideas are mental objects. Just like there are different physical objects,. there are different mental objects also. Just like physical objects have inherent differences, mental objects have inherent differences too. This is regardless of one’s opinion or judgement about these objects.

    Rationality requires that objects must be recognized for what they are. This is mindfulness. Irrationality is caused by assuming things that are not there, especially when those assumptions are inconsistent with reality.

    The fundamentals of Scientology, as contained in axioms, factors and logics are not proven out completely in reality. There are errors and flawed assumptions made by Hubbard, that are creating all the inconsistencies that we see in Scientology today. Some of those fundamental flaws are stated on my blog in the category of Scientology.

    Whenever you see inconsistency, you will always find a flawed assumption underlying that inconsistency. The solution to discovering and getting rid of assumptions is mindfulness.

  31. I think Indoctrination can take place when the person himself yields the purpose of the activity to another source,i.e, the activity must be followed as expressed by someone else’s ideas, design or programs, one then obeys what is required to achieve the product end of that activity and looses his own personal input, view or initiative. One becomes a follower.

    It gets intensified as by now the group demands require of you certain behavior and action all of which you have agreed upon in the first place.

    If one has a strong, clear path and personal goals/dreams and acts with truthfully with oneself, one wouldn’t fall for such a blind obedience and cruelty as some of the insiders still dramatize.

    It happens because one allowed it in the first place, fortunately many of us must have had a personal goal/purpose and that is why we were able to eventually see the light and this experience made it stronger.

  32. Elizabeth Hamre

    Do to head on collision, suffered heavy brain damage. don’t have immediate memory, don’t have continual thoughts, have difficulty composing sentences but what I have lost is not important, because I gained other abilities, like seeing holographic images, have IQ so high it cant be measured, see things without using the eyes which are not available to most humans.. I hope you can understand I do not feel I am missing anything. Doing just fine.. better than fine..:)

  33. Luis Agostini

    Hi Marildi!!

    Connecting with you always ( so far 🙂 ) produces joy.


  34. Just the very fact that Scientology consists of high ideals but sleazy opearations to protect those ideals, makes the subject inconsistent. There must be some considerations coded in the fundamentals of Scientology that allow for its sleazy operations

    Underlying inconsistencies there are always assumptions that are inconsistent with reality.

    Both Scientology Axiom #1 and Factor #1 are inherently inconsistent.

    It is interesting to look at them mindfully to discover the underlying assumptions.

  35. Yes, the backlash would be really, very strong looking at all the heavy push behind the craziness of Scientology.

  36. Elizabeth Hamre

    But I might as well tell you do to immense amount of auditing thousands of implants, machinery have been as-ised and those items were which gives the automatic functioning for humans.. like remembering, having memory, collecting data and have it stored away for future use. That reality is hard to comprehend.. now you know more than was need to understand why I write differently than you people do.

  37. Tom Gallagher

    Ron is some kind of bizarre bartender. Scientology really is ‘Ron’s Bar & Pub’.

    His signature “House Special” cocktail includes equal parts of these ingredients:

    1) Snake Oil

    2) Kool-Aide and something called

    3) Hyperbole.

    Snake oil is:

    “If attacked on some vulnerable point by anyone or anything or any organization, always find or manufacture enough threat against them to cause them to sue for peace.”
    – L. Ron Hubbard, Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter, 15 August 1960, Dept. of Govt. Affairs

    Kool-Aide is:

    “Our organizations are friendly. They are only here to help you.”
    – L. Ron Hubbard, “Dianetic Contract” 23 May 1969

    Hyperbole is:

    “There is no more ethical group on this planet than ourselves.”
    – L. Ron Hubbard, KEEPING SCIENTOLOGY WORKING. 7 February 1965, reissued 27 August 1980

    CONSUMER WARNING!!!!! The hang over and deliriums from this concoction can last for many years………………

  38. Jean Kowalski

    Interesting Marty, that you took a quote from David R Hawkins, one of my most enlightening teachers. In his book “Power vs Force” he plotted a scale of consciousness from 0 to 1000, where 200 is the point distinguishing whether the interested party has integrity. He can tell the conscious level of a person or organization by a muscle test. Above 200 is pro survival with integrity and below 200 is contra survival and lacking in integrity. Scientology was plotted at 190.
    But does the fact he was a psychiatrist count? Very interesting.

  39. There might be some fear behind the behaviour to protect at least for oneself Scientology. No matter if still in, independent or do nothing since years.
    If one had been long enough in Scientology then he (me) might consider that some positive effects could be the cause of the application of Scientology. Might it be good health, wealth or a good marriage.
    Maybe, deep inside oneself, one (me) fears, that if talking or thinking bad about Scientology or LRH might end this luck and then one gets sick, poor or the relationship ends.
    This is not a justification of attacking. But could explain the background why a Scientologist might not want to see the truth about Scientology. Not so much in fear of loosing ones future but to loose the present benefits.

    While I had been in Scientology and especially the first 2 years (1976-77) I did not withhold being a Scientologist. But I did not meet a single person “open minded” or a little bit positive about me being a Scientologist. Every time I had mentioned to be involved with Scientology I had been attacked. Every time someone had been telling me how bad Scientology really is I felt a pain in my heart. (literally) I did not attack the attacker. Never. I swallowed it. After too much swallowing I did not mention Scientology any longer. Never again talked about it.

    I do not know your background. But here in Germany I do not know much people (I know at least 1000 Scientologist by name had talked to them more then a view sentences) that attack the Scientology attackers. Except the professionals that do it as their job.
    And after my staff contract I had no problem to leave staff and had no problem to quit. Sure I get some calls. But only many years later starting with selling the basics. Before the basics no one had been interested to give me a call or write me a mail or letter.

  40. My grandmother was Erzebet — my father was born In Hungary and grew up in Switzerland – so I recognized the Erzebet when it was mentioned while ago.

    I don’t speak a word Hungarian unfortunately — otherwise I would say – how nice to meet a fellow Hungarian 🙂 here in this blog. And welcome!!

    Read the TRUTH!!! KNOW THE CHURCH IS GOING TO GO CRAZY HERE! we all need to support her and her family!!

  42. Elizabeth Hamre

    But Brian.. our reality is totally meaning-less, it do not effects your reality and that is good.. just words, opinions, assumptions.. useless considerations, we are just passing time. And I am glad you don’t take them to heart.

  43. It’s not “a METAPHOR for someone’s behavior” – it can be seen commonly with people who are on an obsessive outflow, for example – i.e. compulsive communication.

    On a physical level, take as an example the stretching and stretching of a rubber band – the flow stuck in that direction will sooner or later reverse itself.

  44. Ditto, Luis! It’s been a while – great to connect up again. 🙂

  45. Robert Almblad

    LRH was a genius at studying something, figuring out what works and what does not work and then releasing it as policy or tech. Like the Study tech, auditing, etc..

    He studied this Intelligence and dirty tricks business in the Navy and then re-studied and perfected it in the late 60’s and early 70″s while in Scientology.

    LRH never used that technology on me or anyone I know but DM has used it on me and a lot of people I know.

    I hate this whole Intelligence and “dead agenting” business and wish he had never perfected it into a codified technology. It’s like Oppenheimer perfecting the atomic bomb. What good are these technologies except to blow shit up? OSA is just a giant third party organization on steroids.

    Intelligence technology is used by governments and the military to protect and further a State. I don’t know if that is good or bad, but it should not be used by self help groups or religions..

  46. “Global warming is manmade and caused by man’s consumption of petro-fuels, so all men must stop using petro-fuels.”

    But our landers and rovers on Mars have observed that the average temperature on Mars has risen, even if ever so slightly, over the past few decades. It must be all the petro-fuels being used on Mars, as opposed to the observable ebb and flow of solar activity.

    Whoops, I stepped in it now!

  47. martyrathbun09

    Jean, thanks. Can you give me a reference to find the scientology plotting? I did not see it in Power vs. Force – so if that is your source, please give me the edition and year. Thanks.

  48. Interested Party

    A State is just another cult Robert. I can’t think of any reason for such covert behavior outside of a war where you are truly defending against a real rather than imagined enemy.

  49. Great example, sort of the opposite end of the spectrum from mine.

    “Whoops, I stepped in it now!”

    Yeah, you did. You’re going to get us started on the various conspiracies next. 🙂

  50. Jean Kowalski

    Marty, re the Scientology calibration, it wasn’t in Power vs Force, but I recall reading it somewhere in calibrations of different organizations. I will let you know when I find it.

  51. Elizabeth Hamre

    Thank you, than you have a Hungarian name? I speak very little since we don’t use it… But of course I read it well.

  52. Still Awakening

    Marty, Check your email.

  53. Jean Kowalski

    Click to access Calibrate.pdf

    Sorry it was level 195 for Scientology

  54. martyrathbun09

    Jean, Fascinating. Who conducted the calibration? Note that they have LRH at 410 (just below the levels of loving, benign, reverence, revelation). I am going to study this much deeper when I have some time. But, at first blush the levels given to LRH and Scientology appear pretty accurate. The fact of the the great disparity between the two is telling.

  55. That “plotting” datum Re: Scn might have been taken from here, Marty (about half-way down the page):


  56. Jean Kowalski

    Note LRH started off at 410 but couldn’t handle his EGO and dropped to 145.
    I assume Dr Hawkins did the muscle calibration with his wife Susan to arrive at the numbers.

  57. Still Awakening

    From the consciousnessprojectDOTorg forums

    “I need to reiterate that for the purposes of this group that Dr.
    Hawkins calibrated Scientology and Dianetics at 195, and L. Ron
    Hubbard at 410 with a drop in consciousness to 145.”

  58. Jean, who were the muscle tests done on?

  59. Words are fun Elizabeth. It gives us an opportunity to relate. But I understand what you are getting at. Hope all is well.

  60. I mean with regard to getting the figures for Scientology and LRH.

  61. Marildi wrote:

    It’s not “a METAPHOR for someone’s behavior” – it can be seen commonly with people who are on an obsessive outflow, for example – i.e. compulsive communication.

    So a stuck flow is like compulsive communication?

    And then once the compulsive communication stops, then the person gets stuck listening a lot?

    Or what?

    On a physical level, take as an example the stretching and stretching of a rubber band – the flow stuck in that direction will sooner or later reverse itself.

    You have to continually pull on the rubber band to get it to stretch (apply energy to it) and when you stop pulling, it comes back to its original shape. So how does a rubber band get “stuck” as in a “stuck flow”?

    The reason I ask is because, just like the idea of an “engram”, a “stuck flow” doesn’t actually exist anywhere in real life. It is only a label or a thought about something else which does sometimes exist.

    But a Scientologist will forget that an “engram” or a “stuck flow” does not actually exist, and is not real, and they will treat it is if it is real and even see it in their minds as if it is real.

    No conspiracies here. Just another Scientology reification spotted by Alanzo!


    Ding! Ding!!!

    I should get like 50 bucks or something for spotting this, shouldn’t I?


  62. Thanks for posting that. What a great story.

  63. Yes — I do have a Hungarian last name — although someone Americanized when my father immigrated to the US. An Hungarian would recognize it as Hungarian 🙂

  64. Thank you for playing “Spot that Scientology Reification”, PlainOldThetan!

    I respect your courage for stepping up and giving an example.

    When I was a Scientologist I could see “stuck flows” any where another Scientologist would point one out. But I stopped thinking and seeing the world with Scientology a long time ago, and so I am having a hard time seeing exactly how:

    “Global warming is manmade and caused by man’s consumption of petro-fuels, so all men must stop using petro-fuels.”

    is a “stuck flow” per the definition Marildi quoted from the tech dictionary.

    Do you mean that all the oil flowing out of the ground, through refineries, onto boats and trains, and into cars is a “stuck flow”? How?

    I’m not getting it. Please understand, I will accept any real and actual demonstration of a stuck flow. So if you can show how this is a stuck flow I am totally willing to see it.

    Please explain.

    (There could be 50 more bucks in this for me, so I’ll be here all day if you need me to be!)


  65. Elizabeth Hamre

    Marildi that is not correct.

  66. Elizabeth Hamre

    🙂 what you stepped in is a cow flap… do you know what that is? 🙂

  67. Jane, I hope at least there was something nice before the RPF? But you are correct ~ I enjoyed most of the 19 years in the SO even enjoyed a bit of the RPF – Rubio taught me electronics 🙂 but then there was the gross and horrible. What the Cof$ doesn’t get is the stories told by xstaff are 1st hand truths NOT someone telling someone else’s story. I will never shut up about my 40 yrs in Cof$. Why would I? Some of the stories are very interesting and helpful to others. And I’m so dang used to getting in trouble when I communicate it just doesn’t phase me anymore. One thing for sure – I won’t be getting another Sec check and having to wait and watch the auditor stare at the needle! 🙂

  68. Elizabeth Hamre

    🙂 PS: to know the meaning of such on important item as a ”cow flap” is vital since ones education is incomplete and ones survival is not ensured, plus if one do not know, have reality on such important fact.. one cant belong to the right group… 🙂 and will remain for ever as on outcast=lowlife, this important vital information can be yours for $15000.00 Canadian.:)

  69. martyrathbun09

    Yes. I saw that. And I can see that too.

  70. martyrathbun09


  71. You’ve summed it up BBJane – EXACTLY.

  72. martyrathbun09

    Yeah, I saw that. I could make convincing case for how both numbers came about.

  73. Elizabeth Hamre

    yes they are fun, one can create.. all is well here, still waiting for better weather so I can return to gardening. if you have time go to facebook and take a look at the garden pictures.. When it comes to tending the needs and wants of flowers I am much better with that than verbal communication. When lived north of Seattle I have had on award winning rose garden that is the garden on those pictures. Now I have a different one here in BC. equally beautiful. I want to brag a bit, I am a Master Gardener. that tile I have earned without study the plant life… 🙂 I hope you having a grand evening!

  74. Hi Alanzo

    I am not going to try to explain or defend LRH’s concept here because that isn’t what you asked for, and it has flaws in it anyway.

    But…as a possible physical example of a “stuck flow”.

    Suppose you are intent on holding a 100 pound rock above your head, in an effort to stop it from falling on you.. Sooner or later you will fail in your continued ability to do so, and the energy represented by the rock’s mass and height, (which you have been flowing against) will “flow” down onto you… as in.. the rock will fall on you. The “flow” “reverses.”

    Or …

    Suppose you were throwing stones at wolves to prevent them from overwhelming you. As you get more and more tired, you expend more and more energy in your defense until you no longer have enough energy to hold the wolves off, and they (via their energy) flow in against you and overwhelm you.

    Notice though that in both of my examples you are flowing against, or in opposition to another energy. (even though you may have created the situation in the first place) The situation where the overall flow is neither flowing away or toward you could be termed “fixed”. It has actually formed what LRH calls a “ridge”, or “standing wave.” It could also be called “fixed” because you are refusing to experience the return flow and only willing to experience the outflow. (or inflow, if you are fixed on only inflowing in some situation.)

    However, one could postulate that you could flow energy at will, and without the back flow, if you were not flowing it “against” some other flow.

    Anyway… Maybe that helps…maybe not.

    Eric S

  75. More importantly, thank you for your support!

  76. The SO has a stuck flow of Hill-10s. There was pretty much always an emergency. It was one good way to keep us from looking at the truth. Well the church is now straight up and vertical in stuck flow of Hill-10s all created by themselves. Yes, a person seems to do well with a certain amount of randomnitly. I liked the constant excitement of it all till it started to smash me into it. I had to physically re-move my body from the area and then it still has been near 7 years. I am just getting to a point I can start to understand these comments even. Marty always seems to post just the ‘next step’ and it makes it possible to get out of judgment and now to be aware of the evil in it all. There is no way I would have been able to confront this if I had stayed and kept my husband and kids so it had to be.
    Yes Dan, the backwash will be something to behold.

  77. Funny Alanzo! I was thinking maybe of a river that gets dammed then it backs up. As for ‘thought’ not being in the physical ‘real’ universe ~ not sure I agree with that. Every time I think of missing my disconnected daughter (briefly once or twice a day) I get a pain in my heart and it’s real to me 🙂

  78. Excellent post Marty.
    The *Church* identifies whistleblowing as ATTACK.
    The overt doth speak loudly in accusation/
    I am re-posting this post as it has complete relevance.
    I slowly slowly let it dawn on me that the basic dynamic principle of the “church”
    is not as described “SURVIVE” (although that plays a large part in how it
    treats others ~~ benefit for self, screw the individuaL)
    The basic principle Radical Taliban Scientology Inc operates on with its wall of Lawyers is ATTACK AND DESTROY.
    This is carefully ingrained in the culture. Witness the tabloid hate websites erected by a 501C3 tax exemption *Church* with emphasis on sexual issues, tabloid sexual titillation with bits and pieces from Confessional folders !Sever
    a lifetime connection ~ just like that.
    Normal people do not end up believing it is okay to stalk people like prey, to end up
    as vicious OSA thugs or the OT VIII OSA operatives with head cams and cackling
    laughter. This type of conduct is carefully ingrained as acceptable “for the greatest good.”
    All Scientologists are carefully trained to attack.
    What Sea org members, Office of Special Affairs Scientology Inc does not and will *NEVER* understand is simply this ~~~~~
    The *Church of Scientology* is under continuous ATTACK, because as an entity, its prime function is to ATTACK one and all. ATTACK is built into its hardware and DNA. Challenging anything in the Church or asking to depart is met with increasingly gruesome ATTACK. Having gotten away with this for years, the sun rises and sets in Scientology Inc with ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK.
    The “Church” of Scientology is similar to a Sci Fi virus Tsunami that devours
    everyone in its path, like an advancing Army. Then the Tsunami waves pulls
    back and it leaves the shoreline littered with spiritual rape of all funds,
    bankruptcies, psychological trauma, destroyed families, disconnection, reports
    to the FBI, Human trafficking exposed and Fair Game as good as Guardian Office
    days, no reform,. This pattern continues month in and month out.
    The more enemies Taliban Scientology makes, the more it attacks. It only knows
    how to throw gasoline on the fire and escalate a smoldering fire. It cannot put
    out a fire. With the supreme arrogance of *holding the secrets of the universe*
    it batters and clobbers exiting scientologists turning mild disaffecteds into
    lifetime warriors.
    And the numbers of Scientology-haters increases
    exponentially where long term loyalists now sit around plotting its demise. The
    “Church” strictly obeys its policy of FAIR GAME :

  79. That would make an interesting blog post!

  80. Nice post Les 🙂

  81. Thanks for this data, Jean. Very interesting!

    As regards LRH’s decline, it seems the same thing happened to Mohamed. The following is listed under the high level of 740:

    “[740] –

    The mantra Om, as opposed to Aum, which is a serious alteration and is why it calibrates at the extremely low level of 65. This is also the level of the New Testament, if the Book of Revelations is included. This is also the level of Mohamed at the time he wrote the Koran, before dropping to 130 after he ‘took up the sword at age 38. ‘I’ is seen as a total statement As the Ultimate Reality.”

  82. Perfect summation. Thanks

  83. LDW;
    I wrote an article on auditing and affinity which aligns and adds to your comment. I believe you would enjoy it.
    Drop me a note.

  84. Hi Marildi;
    You might want to read my post at the beginning of this thread. It may have posted before alerts went out. It’s the 4th or 5th one.

  85. EnthralledObserver

    Elizabeth, are you aware that you talk/write in riddles, metaphors and notions. The words you choose to use consistently appear to invalidate and stall conversation, and rarely seek to explain or facilitate ongoing considerations. I get the feeling your beliefs are very thetan/soul central, but I don’t find that perspective at all practical when trying to interact with other humans, especially comments such as above where you continue to assert ideas akin to the world being flat and everything equal and of equal parts. Plus, don’t you find that a boring and tedious contemplation? I do – *yawn*.

  86. “You have to continually pull on the rubber band to get it to stretch (apply energy to it) and when you stop pulling, it comes back to its original shape. So how does a rubber band get ‘stuck’ as in a ‘stuck flow’?”

    As I see it, the flow of energy is in the “continual pulling” and that energy is transferred into the rubber band, where it exists as potential energy – and at some point that potential energy reverses direction and the rubber band springs back.

    As long as the pulling continues, the flow is “stuck” as per this definition: “remaining in a place, situation or environment.” The stuck situation is the continual pulling or stretching in one direction.

  87. How do you see it, E?

  88. Alanzo,
    I’m not defining Stuck Flow for you, but here are two links, which may help you navigate the Energy thing:


  89. In the immortal words of ‘Cow Pattie’; “You got to watch you’re step, when the chips are down”.
    (Jim Stafford)

  90. Less, great post.

    “It’s interesting that the principle works in reverse as well. True in one thing equals true in everything else. That is what hooked me and kept me relatively in line for many years.”

    It looks to me that the Auditing technology & the articulation of mind phenomena, works as the Flypaper to stuck all the good folks to Scientology. Hubbard built Scientology in reverse, he used the allure of Truth to recruit people for his actual scheme.

  91. Correction on last sentence: The situation “sticks” when the continual pulling or stretching in one direction stops, which is at the point where the rubber band breaks and changes its direction of flow from expanding to contracting.

  92. At the very end LRH is lowered to 145.

  93. singanddanceall

    collect your million dollars from Randy.

  94. Jean Kowalski

    Mirildi —– Dr Hawkins uses Kinesology to tell truth from falsehood. Usually he uses his wife, or someone above conscious level 200 to hold their arm out and ask her a question . The answer comes from the universal, God energy which flows through the person with the outstretched arm. Truth will make the arm strong and falsehood makes the arm weak. The question has to be worded correctly to get a definite yes or no response. Most of the time he is pretty accurate.

  95. Brian, a few years back I became a strong admirer of Yogananda.

    Just the one book “Sayings of Yogananda Paramahansa” would be about a million times as effective as “The Way to Happiness” in my opinion.

  96. Reminds me of one I heard just today. It could apply to Scientology false stats: “We trust in God; but for everyone else, show us the data.”

  97. This link has a bit of discussion on flows: http://the-scientologist.com/freescientologymaterial.shtml.

    I believe Hubbard saw flows as consisting of energy. I see them more as behavioral. There are some metaphors in English that brush on the idea, like “he talked till he was blue in the face,” or “was struck speechless” or “was bled dry by the regges.”

    It is hysterically ironic that Hubbard emphasized the importance of balance in flows — especially in the sense of exchange. And yet the Church of Scientology is one of the most “out exchange” human organizations ever to exist — in my opinion — it takes millions of dollars in promise of an exchange it cannot deliver.

  98. Might as well spawn a conspiracy theory: one of the co-founders of Greenpeace recently declared that global warming is a political tool to get money and is not supported by science (see http://www.bizpacreview.com/2014/02/28/greenpeace-co-founder-demolishes-liberals-cult-like-agenda-on-global-warming-climate-change-103690).

    He’s not the only well-educated person to claim that, of course.

    But, as to conspiracies, as Ron probably should have said about his own life, “Just because you are paranoid doesn’t mean they are not really to get you.”

  99. Dancing Cranberry

    good to see you here, Cat Daddy.

  100. I was trying to think of a concrete example, but find that I am stuck.

  101. Very insightful and very real, Brian.You have realized the very source of life itself. You are now a beginner.The fun can really begin.

    Why is an overt an overt. Why is a harmful act actually harmful. If we are all truly indestructible (and we are), and everything we do and see is additional experience that simply enriches us, then where’s the harm? Even the dynamics of existence themselves are purposes that were gained, or impressed upon us, fairly late in our history.

    The answer is very simple and need not be poetic or ethereal.


    It seems that it should be more complex and highbrow, but it isn’t.
    Oh, you can talk endlessly about how this can occur in so many ways, and how this statement can circle around and the paradoxes involved ad infinitum. But this basic truth undercuts all of that. There is a oneness and common source that we all enjoy. And as you stated, we are complete and sovereign individuals. We are both, 100%. This makes decisions about your minute by minute daily actions much simpler. Many ridges dissolve.

    This is a concept that is just jibber jabber until it CLICKS. But once it does, communication, empathy, ethics, and love especially will never be the same. In addition, and more importantly for the present, it brings clarity to past confusions and inconsistencies.

    Have fun, you are in for a ride.

  102. Vinaire;
    ” This is regardless of one’s opinion or judgement about these objects.”
    Read your comment and this statement caught my eye. There are some truths which are fact whether one or many or a few agree. Many things are relative but some things are just fact. The ability and WILLINGNESS to recognize these things is high on the scale. Fixed opinions are a different subject entirely.

    Excellent, Mark. I had that exact cog a few years ago.

  104. That’s right Marildi. It is also on page 408 of the Tech Dictionary Def 1.). The meaning of flows, stuck-flows is a fascinating concept in itself and one that is helpful to use in life. I like to think that the subject of flows runs parallel with the concept of exchange. I have come across many troubled Scientologist over the years, and recently so who have formed serious self inflicted wounds with their use of stuck-flows due to their ignorance of exchange – including those in the Free (for All) Zone (where only partial gains seem to be delivered). The heading of flows and stuck flows is one aspect of Scientology usage that I whole-heartily disagree with – regarding Exchange. In my usage all three run together. Actually this part of Scientology on exchange, simply sucks – and I cannot say that enough. It is so fixated and widespread among the many that ‘one’ may as well have a number stamped on their forehead if they ever get pulled in – the ‘one’ being artificially ‘preyed on’ I am referring to. I see the whole topic of exchange (and the stuck-flows that result) in Scientology as a deranged disability – by those who use it and some cunningly so. Many use it to control others who are not familiar with it. Ironically enough those who do use it, motivate with the pulling in of various stuck-flows (as motivators) and in the most troubling way. I have seen this among auditors and even a Class VIII C/S – among others. Such application of it (by others) is the complete opposite of what I have learned regarding responsibility (for my survival) with my third and fourth dynamics. Perhaps I just did not read enough HCOB’s – as of yet.

    Have you ever noticed that there’s a fairly large share of Scientologist out there who (after a year or so) get ‘jammed up’ with not being able to ‘outflow’ a simple act of kindness to another at all – where they may not have been like this before Scientology? Well this can be a stuck flow – in one direction – usually theirs. Somehow it was created for them. It was learned. Somehow it made them right and they use it. They are creating a ‘not flow’ or a no ‘out flow’ on a particular dynamic(s). Also however, (if we understand the basic principals of Scientology) this can create a returned stuck flow – in the reverse direction. LRH lectures on this.

    I find it mind boggling that many Scientologist apply this in their lives (in such an adverse way) and wonder why (while some don’t wonder at all) they are troubled with the reverse flow which usually materializes into a ‘stuck-flow- for them. The result is almost like motivating but they would never claim this. It simply amazes me. Yes such comes from learning for us all. But how come some get such a basic concept and others miss it – even over a period of years? Maybe I should say they dismiss it. They have somehow adopted along the way that it is (almost) not okay to freely help another – without getting something in return. This can be a stuck-flow. There has to be an ‘in exchange’ or the one receiving will now be ‘out exchange’ with the other. What follows is the real kicker. Afterwards is the possibility that the one receiving can ‘go criminal’ on the other – for what is called an ‘out exchange.’ This is actually practiced today. How programmed can one possibly be with analyzing life in such a way?

    As an example with speaking on flows, stuck-flows and this crazed ideology of exchange (in this way), I had something recently happen to me. Please note that the other sees me as friend – so they say. Anyway I was right around the corner from this other Scientologist (so I’m told) and one evening I called for some assistance. After I explained myself as ‘in need’ of some help their reply was “what do you want from me?” I immediately was taken back (not surprised however) with the thought of the way most fixed programmed Scientologist figure. It reminds me of a ‘figure – figure’ case. Anyway I realized (at that moment) oh, okay, I see! I have to somehow balance out my ‘calling for assistance’ so that their dynamics are not hindered upon in such a way that I am out exchange with them and they now go into a lower condition (because of my need of assistance) and then a possible out-ethics sit- results from what was a good intended flow (to begin with but they saw only as dev-t) that is now working itself into a possible stuck-flow situation. Sounds complicated right. Well for those who use it, it is intended to be just that. Believe me when I say that this part of Scientology is strictly used for mind control. I have come to the conclusion that some use Scientology for their own good and to control others. This can and does create stuck-flows for the user – but they don’t see it even when they are at the higher stages of the bridge. It can actually harm and hurt those who it is used on. The user is aware of at least this much too. Anyway such people who use it jam up their own flows by not being able to naturally out-flow at all. They have a consideration on the word FLOW. This builds a ridge in their universe and creates stuck-flows. This does not matter to them however. They want a result / product and they use whatever force is needed to get it. From this we see such people in and out of the CofS who have stuck flows on various dynamics.
    Your concept of flows and Stuck-Flows is a good example. I just realized something because of your example. If one is walking around with ‘considerations’ about things or about people then this too may result in a stuck-flow.

    What astonishes me mostly with the above is that the most Godly of OT creatures never seem to get this! When one is desperate one can get overwhelmed and from here they can create all sorts of stuck-flows to hinder themselves across the dynamics and be trouble for others too. They get delusional.

    Also those who are so fixated (and resistant) on not being the victim of ‘out exchange’ are usually the ones who are ‘out exchange’ and so the great creator of stuck-flows. This universe is mocked up in such a way that what you resist you become (LRH). And if someone has stuck-flows on giving they will most likely have stuck-flows on receiving too right?
    You are right with your example of a stuck-flow with communication. This too (if addressed the wrong way) can result in a stuck-flow or no flow. Thanks for bringing this topic up and giving me the chance to comment on it.

    And thank God that LRH made the point of saying “what it true for you, is true for you.” He said this for good reason. This gives one the choice to use what one chooses to use and not abide by everything – regardless of what the tech says.

  105. Here is a demo of applying Kinesiology by Dr. Hawkins on a child


  106. And you are a wonderfull communicator, You keep in com despite differences in opinion or view.

  107. Oh Damn when I was 19 that was done to me on a podium. I am very sensitive to that.

    Was very stromng stating my own name, but very very weak stating I was somebody else.

  108. Thanks, Jean. After reading a little about it I figured out that it must involve the “higher self” or “universal consciousness,” or however it’s termed, but in any case it would have to be beyond the realm of the physical universe. Anything less would involve way too many variables.

    Btw, there was a discussion about Dr. Hawkins a couple of months ago (on the “Scientology: Witnessing and Prohibiting” thread) where I commented that I had noticed the emotions section of Dr. Hawkins’ chart to be quite similar to the tone scale with regard to the sequence of these emotions: anger, fear, grief, apathy, guilt shame – all below 200 on the chart, and on the tone scale all below 2.0. Hawkins’ chart can be seen in an article titled “Vibration of Emotions” at this link: http://zoesoulspa.com/2012/01/06/vibrations-of-emotions/

    For anyone interested, there’s another related article titled “The Physics of Emotion…” here: http://www.6seconds.org/2007/01/26/the-physics-of-emotion-candace-pert-on-feeling-good/

  109. Hi, Mark. I read all your posts so I’m sure I did. Which point are you particularly referring to?

  110. Right. That’s what I meant. I’ve seen similar articles.

  111. christianscientology

    Scientology is LRH’s story. We each have a story and when we come across another story that aligns with our own but improves our own story we willingly adopt this new story forgetting that our new-found understanding of life is, in fact, “just another story”.

    It was on your blog I was first introduced to “The Jesus Mysteries” (thanks to whoever that was) for it helped me to see that after being rejected by the CofS I embraced the Jesus story, and to some degree lost sight of the MYSTERY that lies beyond all the stories that we weave to try and make sense of life.

    I am reminded of the old adage from Scientology “seriousness equals mass”. The biggest mistake is taking Scientology seriously. Scientology was LRH’s story and the mistake he made was taking it seriously and losing sight of the mystery that lies back of life. Swopping one story for another is playing the children’s game of “my daddy is bigger than your daddy”.


  112. Hi there Marildi;
    I should have known you had already seen it. You must do what I do and that is, when Marty puts out a new post, I always go to it and see all the comments that posted before I subscribed to the new post, so that I don’t miss any, It was this one I was referring to;
    “Any body of knowledge must be viewed in it’s minutest detail and in it’s overall perspective. Take a group of 1000 bits of data, Highlight any 100 bits as an example of the whole, and the perspective of the whole is skewed. Any 100 bits.”………..
    Watching all you’re comments, also.

  113. Marty , is is possible that you give us a thoughts about dox , that are available on many sites….like xenu.net ,or ESMB, or TOs site…. because dox that you published ,are available for years at different sites…. also , now when you give green light for book BFM – lots of people here,are going to read it NOW…..
    maybe thoughts on “the Master” movie…. but , more important are dox out there , that are waiting to be read…. tnx.

  114. Totally agree Karen. Today’s organized Scn is a complete embodiment of “The Group is all, the Individual nothing.” It’s not hard to see how they have arrived at such extreme actions.

    1) Scn is the MOST IMPORTANT thing in the universe
    2) Without Scn, this planet and the rest of the universe is DOOMED
    3) Without Scn, beings will continue their downward spiral until complete solidity is achieved.

    Once the individual or group has adopted these principles, well, the flood gates to criminal behaviour and suppression are opened. ANYTHING opposed to this viewpoint MUST be DESTROYED.

    I am certain there exists radical Scnists today who would commit murder given the right circumstances, if it brought about safety and survival of the almighty group.

  115. Chee Chalker

    Not all the people, as DM is one of the “people” in Scientology

  116. What ever happened to the goal of being exterior and pan-determined?
    That is how I operate, and have since my L11 & L12.

    KRC is really the only way to operate with of course high ARC…

    It seems like DM is actively pushing K down with the support of his minions..

  117. Elizabeth Hamre

    I have collected more than that… ! but it seems you have been drinking from the well of vinegar!

  118. Hey Mark, I agree. Somewhere along the line I had the realization that it was all basically a 0-flow.

    We suffer because of our identification with the body and because we have probably caused suffering to protect our own experience, our own tribes or through pure selfishness.

    I believe the purpose of our suffering is to teach not to cause it anymore.

    Suffering is an education and a prod to soul remembrance to the student of life.

    Suffering is a humble benevolent teacher that says, “no my child, do not go down that path anymore. It is not good for you or others.”

    Thus the cosmos is based on law. Laws that instruct.

    Cause and effect, karma, the great behavioral math instructor of souls.

    Marty and Mike can attest to karma at this point I am sure.

  119. Elizabeth Hamre

    I am what I am.. and you are what you are.. sorry I have disappointed you in any way. you see, this is what I have. ”I get the feeling your beliefs are very thetan/soul central, but I don’t find that perspective at all practical when trying to interact with other humans, ” Your assessment is corrects. When one erases all considerations than not much left to say. Where I am from the MEST universe looks flat, since it is only a illusion. Life becomes very simple when one operates on different level.

  120. Elizabeth Hamre

    Here is something I bet you never heard before. houses in the villages had earth floors these floors were hard but still the surface had to be replaced regularly with new layer of dirt otherwise the wear from boots-shoes would erode the floor. Weekly: softened clay fine straw pieces and fresh cow dong was mixed with water and smoothed over the floor, this mixture acted as cleaner plus replaced the worn down surface of the floor. Now fresh cow dong is just freshly chewed grass and it smells the same way as newly mowed lawn..We lived in such a house as children,

  121. Elizabeth Hamre

    🙂 I would love to hear from you.. endlesstringofpearls@gmail.com

  122. Patrick Edward Brown

    How to resolve a “stuck flow”: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0208aeFQZzY

  123. Pip,
    “It was on your blog I was first introduced to “The Jesus Mysteries” (thanks to whoever that was) for it helped me to see that after being rejected by the CofS I embraced the Jesus story, and to some degree lost sight of the MYSTERY that lies beyond all the stories that we weave to try and make sense of life.”

    I’m glad you did.

  124. Excellent examples, Eric S!

    Very well written and thought out. Very easy to see.

    Thank you!

    But I still don’t get the “stuck” part.

    In the real world, I don’t think there is a “stuck” part, even though a Scientologist can mock it up and see one because Ron said it was there.

    It seems to me that in the real world, there is an energy flow which goes against an opposing force to reach an equilibrium, which then becomes an inflection point as the energy behind the original flow runs out.

    Thus there is always an ebb and flow, never a “stuck flow”.

    Or am I still not getting it?

    Hey!! Maybe I need some auditing in order to get it!


  125. Yes. Unfortunately, I think that is real, Cece.

    And it will take a real set of circumstances in the real world to finally go away.


  126. Marildi wrote:

    The stuck situation is the continual pulling or stretching in one direction.

    Thank you, Marildi.

    When it is continual, why would that be called “stuck”?


  127. Wow. Thanks, Conan!

    This is what I love about this community found on the post-Scientology Internet. It is made up of some of the greatest people, and greatest thinkers, EVAR!


  128. Thanks, FOTF.

    It’s good to see Scientologists thinking again.


  129. Very cool.


  130. Thank you Dancing Cranberry, I have been hanging out here for a while 😉

  131. Hey Marildi!

    I was just taking a shower and thinking about this idea of “stuck”. Why would he put that word “stuck” there in “stuck flow”?

    Maybe I’m just justifying for LRH. Maybe I’m putting something there of my own creation that wasn’t there originally. But I had an idea for it.

    The word “stuck” might be there because, as a mental phenomenon, something can be thought or acted out without awareness or consciousness, as a habit.


    I think I got it.

    Here, I’ll use it in a sentence.

    “Some people think Alanzo has a stuck flow on being a critic of Scientology.”


    That couldn’t be it.


  132. What I meant by that, FOTF, was your link. I was referring to the link you gave me.


  133. Marildin,
    Sometimes, I use the kinesiology arm test as an educational entertainment. I write some truth and some false statements (e.g. today is Monday) in small paper sheets, and fold them so the writing cannot be seen. Then, I ask the person to hold each sheet with one hand on his solar plexus while I do the arm test with his/her other arm. Then, I unfold the sheet(s), and he/she is surprised that the arm test got the right answers. Finally, I give some explanation about the soul (or spirit, etc.) innate abilities (as opposed to the body’s perceptics).

  134. The two of you are quite the philosophers, and quite the scientific debaters it seems, meaning YOU Elizabeth and Brian! 🙂 But, in my opinion, the truth always works best. I am no longer ignorant in many areas in life, thanks to L. Ron Hubbard. Not thanks to the Church of Scientology for totally twisting, and invalidating and pretending something else is meant other than what LRH wrote mind, just LRH for taking the time to think about others around him. For that I am and always will be eternally grateful! 🙂

  135. Kifflom

  136. Clearmenow1, thanks very much for this write-up. You made some really, really excellent points about flows and exchange – and the misapplication that goes on of the actual principles. Great contribution to the discussion!

  137. Well, if that’s true, CD, then I would say “It takes one to know one.” 😉

  138. Hi MaBű!

    What a great example you give of the same principle. That could be a good way to prove the higher realms of existence with the scientific method!

    Nice to “see” you, sweetie! 🙂

  139. LOL!

  140. Your idea might be right, though. OMG, whoddathunk? 🙂

  141. I think what is confusing is that “stuck” can be meant in two different ways. It can mean stuck in the sense of “continual” or “no change,” such as in the continual stretching of the rubber band, or the continual outflow of compulsive communication – or the continual abuse by DM.

    Or it can mean stuck in the sense that the flow ceases flowing – it “sticks” at a certain point and won’t flow any longer, like the rubber band example. This is one of those words that can have opposite meanings!

  142. Awesome. Loved it!

  143. Jettero, every point you made was spot-on.

  144. Absolutely I noted that part you quoted. As an explanation of the crux of the matter, that was one of the best “bits” ever!

  145. Elizabeth Hamre

    I am too ever grateful for LRH because without him I would not partaken in this great adventure it was him who has supplied the tools for my journey… without those I would never have the realizations What and Who I AM NOT. There was nothing negative for me while I was in the church and the negative evaluation and invalidations I have received while blogging they were only things realities from the Universes of others who have perceived differently and I considered those inputs as something I can learn from, and have. Each evaluation and invalidation when confronted in sessions given a new different reality… dear Lawrence, by now I only know one truth and that has to be a cognition.. Nothing else work for me. I believe in the Auditing Technology and I know from experience that there is no situation, condition, reality, that the tech. could not handle . I have learned from that when confronting that simple action, being there and do nothing with that one can accomplish miracles: make huge masses of energy disappear! HEHEHE. It is very simple action..yet has no equal power out in the universe which could accomplish the same.. 🙂 Tell me to shut up, on this topic I could talk for days. Love to share some of your reality if to care to send it my way! Best to you. Elizabeth

  146. Jean Kowalski

    Yes Marildi, many leaders were just unwilling to let go of their ego, which is separation from the human race, hence, stopped themselves from just being unconditionally loving to everyone regardless of how they think. Disconnection is just a last hold clutch to their false self, so they should be assigned a condition of confusion. lol

  147. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian ” have learned from the masters and from my own experience that we are both: The Unified Field of Undifferentiated Consciousness and individual souls at the same time.”” UGH NO WAY . If that would be so than you are still something.. as longest one identify with anything at all, any though consideration that one is still in the realm of the MEST universe.
    “The Unified Field of Undifferentiated Consciousness ” I just cant get the meaning -on this one.. please do understand I do know the meaning of the words but in relation to the Infinite-intangible? explain please.

  148. Either that or get their BT’s to let go of their egos. 🙂

  149. Interested Party

    I had someone do this with me to discover good vs bad foods. I thought they were misapplying it because the foods were in whatever packaging they came in. I thought at the time that the theory was to have the actual food held against you rather than the packaging.

    Then I saw something very similar at a seminar (that may have been given by Shreffie). The operator did the test while saying “no” and again while saying “yes”. “No” was weak. This test was real to me and made sense – when the subject was considering or experiencing something negative it would weaken his resistance.

    The tests in this video lead me to being far more skeptical than I was because, if this is the guy who came up with the technique, he is unlikely to be doing it wrong. He used a folded picture of someone and did the test without the girl even seeing who it was before he did the test.

    I can accept the subject’s reality on a picture of a person. I can accept the subject’s reality on a food. I can accept the idea that it had nothing to do with any kind of “think” reality and that if you held a sample of actual food against your skin there could be a reliable reaction. That last would be a different kind of test. But here in the video he gets his “reads” with none of the above. So who or what was judging the photo in the folded paper and how did that entity know it was the photograph that was being tested?

    It seems like tea leaves dressed up a little.

  150. Interested Party

    Would this still work if the operator was not a “believer”?

  151. Elizabeth Hamre

    Marildi……………………………………………………………………………………………..how I see it in this universe nothing is permanent, the flows are constant and as they interact , mingle with other energy flows: regardless what ever those may be because of that action they continually alter and change forms. Now that is on energy particles.
    subjects-ideas :Since the Universe only exist created and experienced in the new unit of time as in the moment of NOW the ”thought”: can not be stuck since the thought and the stick or stuck Are CONSIDERATIONS beliefs and their existence last long as the person has their attention on that moment. soon as ones attention if off they vanish, like never existed
    NOW if someone brings up the idea of the apple again but that can only happens in the new unit of time… “Stuck” as any other concept- idea has no real substance.
    I hope this makes sense… let me know.

  152. Elizabeth Hamre

    than god… that those assumptions are your alone!

  153. Elizabeth Hamre

    I have done Kinesiology on food items.. it works perfectly.

  154. Elizabeth Hamre

    jettero “What ever happened to the goal of being exterior and pan-determined?” I am with you on that . 🙂

  155. Really valuable post Marty.

    “Scientologists have been indoctrinated with the false idea that a=b when it comes to Scientology.”

    This is profound insight. I had to pull out my writing tablet.

    ARCX = overts.

    Leaving = overts.

    Noticing an outpoint = overts, (Unless you are a CMO staff member on mission).

    Mentioning an outpoint = natter = missed with hold. (Unless you are the M.A.A.)

    Well, I have about three pages on notes here myself………………

  156. I used to think that maybe it was the GE “answering” the question. But what I’ve read about Dr. Hawkins’ ideas is that it isn’t your reality or the GE’s or the operator’s or anybody else – it’s the higher consciousness or universal consciousness. And in that realm there is an all-knowingness. It seems to be the similar to or same idea as the Akashic records.

    “In theosophy and anthroposophy, the akashic records (from akasha, the Sanskrit word for ‘sky’ ‘space’ or ‘aether’) are a compendium of mystical knowledge supposedly encoded in a non-physical plane of existence known as the astral plane.”

  157. FOTF, the “Sayings of Yogananda” was my first “overt of commision” reaching back into my yogic interests. I was, fuck it, I am buying this book! The hell with Scientology! Ha ha ha.

    I always has a connection with him and in reality all of them. All of the liberated sages. I learned from them that true liberated sages are on the same page. They never claim to be more special that the others. They actually like each other and promote each other. Golly geeze, how friggn novel!

    I knew this women who was going Type 3, as we used to say. She was stuck on OT 3 expaned. She was experiencing incredible schizoid delusions. It was scarry. AO would not help her.
    One day I was besides myself with worry and horrible personal emotional pain for this person. I was afraid for her life.

    One day when she was having an emotional psychotic breakdown I gave her “Sayings of Yogananda.” She looked at the face on the cover and started reading. Her episode came to a screeching holt and I was like,” what?” So every time she started having an episode I had her read a little and her crying and agony would cease.

    I was astounded.

    Mmmmm, come to think of it. I think it was the book “Whispers from Eternity.” Yes, it was. That book is a book of his poetry. My friend was an artist. And though she was OT 3 she still believed in God.

    I thought to myself,” here my own church won’t help her because she does not have money, and here is this book of poetry by a saint that is destimulating her every single time.

    I knew then and there, an old and ancient road, with old ancient friends, was tapping me on my astral shoulder.

    I have never looked back.

  158. I hear you. I can’t profess to being always being pan determined since I finished those two L’s. I don’t really discuss the results of these things because it gives people standards they apply to themselves, when they are not me.

    Then they expect the same results or the same losses. Often people read these without knowing that no two people are the same, and expect the same. results.

    There is someone who publishes that the L’s are a scam. Because of people complaining about not being exterior with full perception after finishing one.

    This is where you find people with thinking skills that do not match mine.
    What are perceptics? Sight, touch, smell, audio etc etc. Most people who are exterior at all, are exterior with full perceptions. Unless they have disabilities such as being deaf or etc.

    Some people expect to leave their body altogether and still have perceptics like taste, vision, etc. Sorry, folk. If you are without a body you are not going to be tasting much, or smell much. Because you are not going to have a nose or a mouth. Eyeballs with lenses that translate colors through the lenses.

    Time and time again at the base I had to explain this to a public who mentioned their issues with this. Time and time again this simple information caused a look of revelation to appear across their face in revelation. You would be surprised how many people think things are the color they are, not because they are viewing them through their eyeballs with lenses that create this “color” effect on the mind. Seriously, they think the desk is red. And if they get hit by a mack truck and are knocked 100 feet away from their now dead body, they will be able to find that red desk again.

  159. Yes, it does make sense. I think it’s just the words getting in our way and making it seem like we’re saying different things. I agree with you that the flows “interact, mingle with other energy flows” – and there are laws of physics that determine exactly HOW they are going to interact, which is why a flow reverses its direction when it does.

    And it seems that mental energy follows the same laws – but only up to the point when the thetan changes his mind, his CONSIDERATIONS – or up to the point, as you said, when he is in the NOW.

  160. And in case anyone’s next thought is, “Then why would Hubbard make an issue of it with regards the L’s?” It is because on L12 you are working with identities and a lot of identities have handicaps. They do not have to be physical. Lack of compassion is a handicap. This comes from a lack of perception. PERCEPTION. Perception of what the other person is feeling and experiencing.

    What sort of identity could only survive without compassion? A Soldier. In battle. Can not afford to assist the enemy. So, you go back and you sort through these moments and identities, and you can regain abilities or perceptions that you once had , and, for whatever reason, had to suppress to survive or “win”.

    But you don’t know THESE things unless you have done the L. And trust me, even then, the P.C. may come out feeling great and have no idea why. Just like they do not know they are already exterior with full perception when they start the L! Because they are daydream believers.
    And someone has not done that thinking for them yet.

    And the people selling and delivering and L’s have not done it them self. That is right folks. Most of the class Xll’s at the base have never been awarded the L’s them self. Some have audited others on the L’s for decades and have never had the L’s them self.

    So, they can not have a logical conversation with the public that have unanswered questions!!!!!!!!!! Not the DofP, not the reg, not the commanding officer! And the auditor is not there to hat, only to follow the C/S. And the C/S has never done the L either! So, they just sell review after review because, they do not know what else to do.

    And this translates onto the internet as, “The L’s are a scam.” Because that is better understanding than none at all.

  161. Jean Kowalski

    The answers don’t come from the mind of the person, but from universal intelligence flowing through the person. Its the energy field reading the picture, as the picture, emits a frequency vibration.
    We are all energy (content) within an energy field (context). Like iron filings in the big cosmos.

  162. Marty – I think instilled ignorance also is the result of the idea of Power being generated by holding a fixed position (or something like that). The danger of debate is that you could be convinced to change your mind about something, which is equated with wavering from your stable position, which is equated with losing your position of Power. It is a very paranoid idea – that debate which results in a new understanding or even a different understanding should be feared and avoided at all cost. There is no use arguing or even discussing anything with a Scientologist about the some idea or even its application. It will be viewed as a threat and the response will be to condemn the person making the threat, accuse them of spreading “verbal data”, etc. It also may be the reason why Scientologists feel so disoriented when they leave the fold.

  163. Elizabeth Hamre

    Marildi… when “”THE THETA CHANGES HIS MIND, his Considerations” that too happens in the new unit of time! each thought even if one say the same word 10000 times over, every word is said in a new unit of time and one might think that the word has the exactly the same energy level but no.. it is altered.
    Now, please explain how the flow reverses its direction… I don’t get it. Explain that in detail.

  164. You are spot on. I have never been in the church personally but have been witness to someone who was in the sea org. I am not saying that this person is a model for all scientologists. I can honestly say that I am not sure if this person can tell the truth at all. This person uses everything they can to destroy people who disagree with them.

  165. Most people on the street have full perception. They know what the temperature is. If they are in pleasure or in pain. When to put on a coat and how much salt and pepper to put on their grits.

    There is a parallel universe though, of the “invisible”. And if it is invisible, people do not perceive it. Because they do not see it, they think it is not there. Native Indians had enormous perception of the “invisible”.

    The song “Good vibrations” is about the invisible. There is a lot for some to know and perceive within the invisible. Music is invisible.

    We live in a world where much of the invisible is discounted. “If I can not see it it is not there.”

    Yet, at some point, these people all of them, will become part of that invisible dimension. It does exist. Just because others do not see or feel things or know about things that are invisible, does not mean they do not exist.

    But this will never be an enforced education on this planet. Scientology and knowing the inadvisable will never ever become an enforced education or occupation on this planet. And that is what Scientology is, a study and understanding of the invisible. There is no visible exchange coming from the Orgs except books and meters. Everything else is invisible.

    It is easy to fuck with people’s minds that are not familiar with the invisible.

    Just like you could take advantage of some tourist visiting a foreign country.

    Life is short in a form. Life can be very long in the invisible. This is why I do not berate people for exploring the supernatural. Or apologize for my want of understanding in it.

    Sorting out false information, discussing the recent events and ideas false or true, knowing yourself and knowing what is true or not, is a supernatural right. There is no apology to make for any of us to look at where our mind has been and gone and why. Ideas are invisible too and look at the weight they carry.

    The “a=b in Scientology” that Marty just pointed out, is a HUGE invisible.

    I had not been aware of it myself until I read that line. That, was a discovery of magnitude. It is there. And in no small dimension.

  166. martyrathbun09

    Thanks for answering the questions posed. A good answer too.

  167. +1 on the difference between perceiving via the body’s eyes etc, and exterior perception. You explain this very well!

  168. Elizabeth Hamre

    Marildi… I still see the energy flows this way; Flow of energy is a flow of energy, but I wait for your explanation. “If you travel at the speed of light”

    as I read it, I have seen everything how that is in space the light moves from the source: the particles move across the dark space and the particles touch some of the objects on their travel and some bounces off the surface and flow backward opens wide like funnel and disperses in space and the rest of the light particles moves forward these are the particles which have by passed the surface but continue their journey till reach different object- surfaces, particles when they arrived they are on the surface only a moment than they flow backward and intermingle with the incoming flows, that intermingling; incoming and outgoing particles give the illusion of the brightness of the surface.

    I see every light particle as they disperse in the darkness and that is the reason there is no such a thing as “dark” because light particles float about from every direction going every direction. Some of these light particles collide and that makes the change and force other particles into different directions. When vast amount of particles of light collide incoming from different direction than there is on explosion of light the particles move again back into different direction, but never travel on the same path since the burst-explosion redirects the particles.

  169. EnthralledObserver

    From my perspective the world/universe is in fact the opposite of what you seem to see. It is endlessly undulating and very real. It exists, and we exist within it. To me life is not necessarily automatically fair, and not everyone is equal, despite the many wishes that it be so, therefore you do have sometimes have to fight for equality, fight for justice and fight for fairness, what is right and good. These are, of course, subjective… not everyone’s perspective on these element match, and that’s why and how people, as individuals, have cause and effect on the world.
    I feel like you, through your perspective as I understand it, are just being a spectator, not really participating in life, just watching it happen around you, because, I assume, you are of the opinion that everything is happening automatically, and that it’s all balanced and equal and is as it ought to be. (Maybe you think you’ve somehow caused it – I don’t know)
    You seem to me to find fault with someone who doesn’t see the inherent equality, yet consistently fail to address the blatant inequality and disharmony around you, preferring instead to defend your surety of your perspective.
    I really wish you’d prick that bubble you seem to live in and instead of focusing on how you think life works, actually live it; participate alongside the rest of us.
    Of course, and I recognize, this opinion is gained only via what you write here and how you react here… I don’t know you in person. I assume that in person you navigate the world with as much dexterity as the rest of us, seeming to fit in well enough.

  170. Elizabeth Hamre

    Oracle …..””And that is what Scientology is, a study and understanding of the invisible. “‘
    We all operate in the invisible universe 99% of the time, I have discovered this, have become my reality after I have as-ised erased the so called solid beliefs. and have give up the use of the eyes: the looking bit.
    Auditing leads away from MEST as one erases more and more of the beliefs that we are somebody and we live in solidity and through cognitions one finds out for self these beliefs are the illusions.
    I have examined the so called void -emptiness and those concepts exist only because the EYES cant see a thing.. cant see the incredible complex energy patterns which continually reshape it self.
    and let me tell you there is no such a thing is void or emptiness, because when one erases those restricting concepts which do not allow one to be aware of the true universe , well the magical universe opens up. and that is where we truly live and operate in.
    This Universe where I write from is the true Paradise.

  171. Okay, gotcha. Depends on the frame of reference – everything, even energy manifestations, can be viewed as happening in the now since there is no such thing as time in that frame of reference.

    Regarding flows reversing direction, take the example of the tide ebbing and flowing. That would be the result of energies interacting, causing the reversal from inflow to outflow and back to inflow. Or when a stone is thrown up in the air – at a certain point, the energy or forces that contribute to its upward motion interact with the forces that act to pull it back toward the ground, and at that point it reverses direction. Eric S gave some good examples on his post too.

  172. Alanzo

    Yes, the “stuck” part… Well I mentioned that there were flaws in the concept.

    I also see nothing that is actually “stuck”. It seems that “stuck” is more of an evaluation than a reality.

    A flow can appear to be “stuck” because it only seems to flow in one direction. Perhaps it would be more correct to say that it was “currently only flowing in one direction”.

    It was just easy to say that a person who obsessively talked had a “stuck outflow” on communication, or that a person who could only help, but not accept help, had a stuck inflow on “help”.

    The whole thing about a flow only being able to flow in one direction for so long and then it “snaps back” , or reverses, only seems applicable in a limited number of circumstances, and in any case “stuck” is a temporary situation, as NOTHING stays he same very long in the real world.

    And NO I would not recommend that you get auditing to find your answer, because you might well spend several fortunes and still not end up with any better answer than the one you have already. ( I do understand that that suggestion was a joke though)

    Thanks for the chat.

    Eric S

  173. Everything Christ, Martin Luther King, Ghandi, and a host other society shape sifters sold was invisible too. Ideas. Ideas are invisible. But we exchange with them all of the time.

    And, there are people that dabble in the invisible, while wholly discounting the invisible and the supernatural. Yet the while they do that they know perfectly well, THEY are selling something invisible too. Ideas.

    The person who insists there is no spiritual , that people are not spirits, that their spiritual gains could not possibly exist because they can not be proven, weighed and packaged, yet all the while enforcing their, “invisible idea”, are quite crafty in the spiritual / invisible universe. They too are pushing the invisible. Their ideas. VS someone else’s.

    The hottest commodity right now on this planet is the “new idea”. Companies looking for new executives want people that come up with “new ideas”. Bill Gates, and the founder of Facebook, came up with “new ideas”. These were invisible.

    The Scientology a=b that is anti spiritual, is any part of the culture or practice that punishes or prohibits other people from forming their own ideas. Enforces ideas. Or polices ideas. Yes, people get punished for the invisible. Thinking. When you create a group that thinks it is part of their hat to punish others for thoughts, you have spiritual terrorism.

    Attacking people for their thoughts and ideas is a form of spiritual terrorism. There is a Scientology a=b that provides for this spiritual terrorism.

    When people are not permitted to have ideas, you are taking something away from them, not giving them something. Sec Checks or punishments or ethics or expulsion for thoughts, is simply, punishment for the spiritual. The invisible. The invisible and supernatural dimension have different laws than the visible. Forming your own idea is a supernatural right.
    That is what the “cognition” is, that every one pays for.

    So, you see the GPMs. If your value is based on being able to take another to a new idea, beyond the ones they already had. (auditing and the cognition). Yet you prohibit thinking, analyzing, concluding, forming ideas, in a greater degree. You are actually reducing someone else’s spiritually.

    What is a with hold but an idea? It is invisible yet illegal in Scientology. Yet it is treated as if one is carrying contraband.


    “A=B in Scientology”.

    You said it Marty.

    Still clearing my Scientology mind.

  174. Elizabeth, outside of the bubble, or shall I say, the well protected fortress, of Scientology cosmology, guarded greedily so as to debar seekers from spiritual understanding, L Ron Hubbard has succeeded with his followers, in 3rd partying if you will, knowledge that is commonly understood by all wisdom schools.

    Commonly understood wisdom, ancient wisdom that is as true today as it was 10,000 BC. unto forever.

    The nature of God, the nature of the soul, the nature of Total Freedom etc is experiencable in advanced experiences in meditation.

    Not experiencing these things I have stated, and not having read any data because Scientology has successfully educated it’s followers to be condescending to other schools of wisdom, it is only reasonable that you would not understand them theoretically or as an experience.

    There is a vast body of knowledge, a body of knowledge known by many different schools of wisdom.

    That knowledge is of the nature of God, life and the soul. Or if you are a Buddhist you can call it consciousness.

    I am not going to bring many people, yourself included into understanding of a state of being that takes years to understand.

    And I find myself at the threshold of Lau Tsu’s: the Tao cannot be discussed.

    The Tao cannot be discussed because the Tao is experiencial.

    Yet, the masters have discussed the theory and practices which brings a being face to face with the Tao.

    If I can inspire only one person to be inspired to reach out and be hopeful, that there is amazing knowledge about life, that can be experienced for oneself. I will be happy.

    Do not stop only in Scientology. Ron inspired a generation of truth seekers.

    Continue the search. Continue it along the lines of your own natural inclinations. The road that feels most natural, will be the one that will take you all the way.

    There is a universe of possibility. Peopled by incredible beings. Teachers of great attainments. Liberated sages who can explain these things better than an arrogant fool like me.

    “lead us from the unreal to the real, lead us from darkness to light, lead us from ignorance to wisdom.

    And lead us from death to immortality”



    Do your own study outside the restrictive thought prison of any “only way”. You will find out that what I have been discussing here is well known description in words of the Supreme Being. The Infinite Consciousness. The Great Refuge, The Ecstatic Vision, Bliss and Joy for evermore.

    Tat Tvam Asi – Thou Art That

    All we have to do is remember. That is the work.

  175. Karen, by challenging “the whole church” to a duel over the matter, aren’t we not handling the matter in doing so? There are so many staff that work in the Church of Scientology. Not an intimidating amount, but enough to allow them to open their doors. Assuming, that each and every one of those people twists and alters L. Ron Hubbard’s writings just so people will come there and give them money? Where is the starting point in the cycle of action to cause the change and then end and start a new cycle? So one has to go it the route Marty and Mosey took. The same route that I did. One time Karen, there was this guy, and OT VIII that lives 20 miles from my house and works 10 miles from there. And he kept showing up in my face EVERY CHANCE HE GOT, telling me outwardly, the church didn’t like me, I wasn’t welcome there, I was nasty, nobody in the church or any mission wants to talk to me, that I am violent, and that he is LRH’s original student and all kinds of Type 2 memento this guy. So what did I do? I did the one thing LRH might do. The one thing anyone might do. The one thing I don’t like to do. I called the cops and took him to court for harassment with the possiblity of a civil suit. And I have never seen him since. 🙂 I guess I handle that correctly. Do you see my point Karen? Which one of those people in that church can YOU KDLC bring to justice and help satisfy your own amends if any? It is a real game. I won! 🙂

  176. Examples of Real World phenomena that appear consistent with “stuck flows: Atmospheric Jet Streams (not just on Earth), the behavior of documented behavior of electrons in lightning “bolts” (each bolt consists of 10’s or 100’s of individual strokes, each in opposite directions caused by electron flow in a given stroke not stopping when the sky and the ground are of equal potential), Ocean Currents (similar to Jet Streams), Soliton theory of Rogue Waves at sea, vortices (persistent circular flows) – other examples exist in Fluid Dynamics.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  177. Thank you Conan. I’m at the beginning of a course on electricity and this helped enormously!

  178. You are welcome. Yeah that’s what it is all about.

  179. “To those shining the light upon Scientology abuses, you may find you have better perspective, more equanimity and even credibility if you understand these Scientology games and take care not to fall prey to them.”

    It’s really true that Scientologists (not all, but many of them) can be downright despicable.

    When trying to shine the light of truth for them, another thing that would give more success would be to take care not to exaggerate or alter the truth or leave out parts of it. That type of approach by some posters just ruins their credibility and defeats their purpose.

  180. Suggested reading:

    1) How to Know God: The Yoga Aphorisms of Patanjili.
    (translation and commentary by Swami Prabhavananda and Christopher Isherwood- best one that I have read by far)

    2) The Supreme Yoga: Vol 1 and 2 translation by Swami Venkatesananda
    (these volumes will blow your mind)

    3) A Search in Secret India by Paul Brunton

    4) Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramahansa Yogananda (named one of the top 100 most influencial spiritual books of the 20th century by book publishers)

    5) God Talks With Arjuna 2 vol set, commentary by Yogananda

    6) The Second Coming of Christ 2 vol set. New Testament commentary by Yogananda ( sorry, he is my teacher, I am not selling him, I’m just familiar with him and he is so damn good translating eastern thought into western understanding)

    7) Anything by Swami Vivekananda

    8) Tibetan Yoga and Secret Doctrines by W.Y. Evens Wentz

    9) Great Yogi Milarepa by W.Y. Evens Wentz (Milarepa was a Buddist master)

    Happy hunting

  181. “We are as a shattered glass, longing again to be whole.

    And yet, I am myself, whole, complete.

    Join me, and find yourself.”


  182. Marty,
    Great post. It looks like you are getting a lot change going.

    I think the problem that keeps showing up, is that Scientologists are often under the illusion that Scientology or Hubbard somehow stand apart, above and beyond any body of data in the universe.

    It is not so, Scientology is still a body of data and it is related to and dependent of everything else in the universe. It is very much subject to change like anything else.

    It is extremely frustrating to observe this deification of DATA, which by the way it is no different to what other religious fundamentalists do with their holy books or prophets. God forbid anybody utter a critical word about their sacred scriptures or their holy men.

    The other mistake that we all made at some point or other, was to confuse our Local Reality (personal) with our Universal Reality (common). They are both entangled but they are not the same.

    Just because we had wins in session, does not negate the facts that others were in the RPF Gulag, or were being harassed by the Inquisitors.

    Clearly asserting our gains with Scientology DOES NOT wash away its harm to others.

    And here is what I found so perplexing about Scientology, if we were to follow the logic of the Apologists; then our local (personal) gains in session should add up to our universal (common) experience of Scientology. But that’s it, they don’t, not even close.

    Scientology as an organized activity doesn’t add up to happiness, autonomy or equanimity. No, it adds up to entrapment and all its attendant suffering.

    The above tells me that the sum of its auditing and training parts plus its promotion, DOES NOT equal the whole.

    So something must be terribly wrong with Scientology.

  183. Great story, Brian. Thanks for sharing.

    In one way Yogananda and Hubbard were alike: they both expressed a mission to bring Eastern wisdom to the West.

    I think that’s about where the similarities end.

  184. No worries — I understood, and I agree.

  185. “All Scientologists are carefully trained to attack.”

    So very, very true Karen. Well said.

  186. Yeppers what I ran into when trying to get the FZ and Indies looking at the resource based economy. Did not use logic of what is and why. Went in programming from the church. A few were able to break it and see the issues as they are not what they were told they are.

    I see you have been on the path of seeing yourself. Good job.

    It took me many years to break it myself. I loved to read science and many other things and the data in the RBE had science and more to it. Slowly due to the events and such I woke up. They did not have my mind fully but it was close enough that it still took me a long time to see.

  187. It’s only yuckie if the culture considers it yuckie.

    BTW, I’m still working on that message you sent me. Rudiments for OTs as a processing level equivalent to several OT levels or Ls is becoming more real to me. I cannot yet see that any one method of work to be the only one.

    Example; The adversarial system of TRs used during some of the L processes can produce reads which will not show up otherwise. This is due to the nature of the area of case one is looking for. These areas of case did not have a conflict with basic, natural purposes, when formed. The conflict has to be produced through thought, to be detected. Ron recognized the obvious danger that could be encountered if this was used with harmful intentions by those assisting a PC/PreOT. This danger has been realized. Giving one “knowledge” which is later used to produce a conflict which is then recognized by the PreOT leaves him wide open to being led down any path the auditor/CS chooses.

    Rudiments as a process appears to be a rich and vast area of work. I have not done the OT levels in the CoS and have therefore not been officially trained in it’s questioning and procedure.

    If you or someone could send to me some technical write-ups on Solo Rudiments, I could add it to the procedures I have developed on my own. This could possibly produce procedures that are more workable than either alone. I could evaluate Ron’s technique from the experience I have. C/S instructions may alert me to some dangers I have not yet recognized. New procedures could possibly be developed, tested, corrected, and published broadly. I DO NOT HAVE A MONOPOLY ON KNOWLEDGE. My ability to recognize what is right for myself is increasing, but is far from complete.


  188. singanddanceall


    I guess one could call it “drinking from the well of vinegar”.

    I actually was for 26 years, I read KSW and thought there could be only one. LOL

  189. IP
    I understand. It’s not always easy to deal with yet ANOTHER change of viewpoint one has not been familiar with or not quite enough familiar.

    Hawkins uses the term ‘DATABASE OF CONSCIOUSNESS’ coined by Carl Jung.
    It appears no matter how one wraps something up the hidden meaning still communicates. Ah! Grade 0!
    Hawkins describes that in his book ‘Power vs Force’. He does not stand alone with these findings.
    For example the book ‘The Message from Water’ by Dr. Masaru Emoto
    shows photos of the result when one intends or says the word ‘Hitler’ to a sample of water. It turns into a very ugly ice crystal.
    This goes for good things as well, turning into gorgeous ice crystals.

    Recently I came across an American artist -Bill Witherspoon- who experimented in a gallery that showed his works with HIDING a beautiful geometric design of Asian likely Buddhistic origin BEHIND a less attractive painting and an inordinate amount of people were attracted to that ‘double painting’ yet they could not see the hidden design.
    Hope this helps.

  190. Thank you, Brian.
    As your wisdom grows, so does mine through osmosis.


    To say that the rules of MEST, energy, flows, behavior, engrams, charge etc, is all agreed consideration is true.
    These two statements must be taken together.

    Karma, like other laws of the universe, is a consideration that you once agreed to, or were coerced into agreeing with. That being said, it doesn’t just go away when you read this. Not only are you causing it to occur obsessively, but others are placing it upon you without your knowledge or permission.

    Using belief and self discipline has some limited workability. Ron saw this as the only workable way for the average guy. BUT THIS LED TO AT LEAST AS MANY LOSSES AS SUCCESSES. To paraphrase; “Don’t be your case, just tone 40 through it and get it done.” This has produced many wins and has crushed even more.

    Remember, these are LAWS of this universe and they have been developed through several successive universes over a long period of time. You were told that if you didn’t go along with these rules, you would be left out in the cold. This is an important fact that is the basis of, and solidifies many undesirable aspects of your case. It was explained that these rules were right and needed. They were often presented as instructions, like HCOBs, or textbooks. Eventually, many times over, you said “Sure, that makes sense, I’ll go along.”


    The more basic laws were developed before large, common universes existed, when playgrounds were small and you were having fun with a few friends. The ‘laws’ were often suggestions.

    But there is a method which does have a little better success. Some call it confront, some mindfulness, some tone 40. The best word I have for it is ‘RELAX’. This bypasses effort and counter effort. You see an undesirable communication that seems to just go on and on? Recognize it, look straight it, understand it. SMILE. RELAX. ALLOW IT TO DISSOLVE. Of course handle any real problems, barriers, etc. which are actual, but do not get interiorized in the particulars. Release any spiritual phenomenon which you are holding in place.

    This sounds simplistic, but is very often quite workable, AND INCREASES AS YOUR UNDERSTANDING GROWS. Practice it. Do not pretend. Using a via has very limited workability and itself can become stuck. Release them as well.

    The final cure is to discover the original decision, but this method can very often produce a release from your own enforced undesirable ‘laws’ of social interaction.

    Hope this adds a little clarity. With good ARCL, it occasionally works magic.

  191. Maurice.
    Thanks, and congratulations. It changed every aspect of my life permanently.

  192. Truth in quantity. Very valuable.

  193. Marildi;
    “In both cases, there are installed filters, whether self-installed or other-installed.”

    Brilliant. Thanks

  194. You have eloquently expressed the whole idea. And on much deeper level, or higher level, of actuality than is perceived by most of us. Wonderful post!

  195. Thanks, Oracle.
    That is information I will need. When I do the Ls, I will insure I have a competent and talented auditor. I believe my work has prepared me well, but we will see. I now look forward to surprises. More fun.

    I am so glad we are able to keep pulling you back to this site.

  196. That’s beautiful.

  197. It has been my observation that stuck or persistent flows are being held in place by someone, somewhere. Find the source, the intention, and you will resolve the outpoint.

  198. Call me a nerd, but fluid dynamics is one of my favorite subjects of study. The flow and motions of liquids and gasses around solids, or through itself is, well, beautiful. The governing rules are so sensible.

  199. Brian, as a matter of interest, is it possible to understand these books without any real knowledge of Hinduism or Buddhism or the principles of Eastern thought? Every time I check out anything on Hinduism in Wikipedia, for example, I find myself reading a discussion that assumes I already know all about it (in which case, why bother reading?), throwing terminology, names of teachers, divinities and events around. It is not enough to make a topic accessible to a Western mind, the background needs to be digestible as well. Is that so?

  200. Spot on.

  201. I am not sure I understood your post fully. In fact I think I didn’t, but I’ll take a stab at it as an untrained 2nd gen.

    Scientology tech tells you what to perceive and reinforces its (and your) rightness when you perceive what it tells you will be there (starting with the construct of engrams in DMSMH, and going on to the tone scale and the assorted R&D lectures, etc.). The ethics technology in particular puts one in a position to judge others and make yourself right. So Scientology can continuously reinforce back to yourself your (and its) rightness.

    To admit that Scientology might be wrong might mean to admit that you were wrong on some score. Depending on your position, actions and contributions in the group, this can have far-reaching implications, including but not limited to your own acts to control and dominate others, your own witnessing of people attesting to permanent gains they clearly are not demonstrating in life and so on. This is a complex issue, but I think part of the aggressive responses one gets is that the truth is perceived to challenge one’s very existence, the reality of which over time has been increasingly reinforced by seeing and understanding life through the Scientology lens. I don’t think the lens is so much to blame as the reason why a person might have decided to select certain aspects of it to make themselves right and ignore others that might make them wrong.

    Another aspect is triggers and learned helplessness. I think attack is often the only option for Scientologists, because it is the only aspect left to them to control.

    But again, maybe this post just went right over my head.

  202. martyrathbun09

    You clearly understand what I was attempting to convey. This is explored in greater detail, and toward expanding one’s horizons, in a course in graduating from scientology.

  203. martyrathbun09

    I have a number of recommendations on a course in graduating from scientology that fit that bill.

  204. “Why was such false indoctrination introduced in the first place?”

    I do not know the answer to that one. Also not sure why some people who got involved willingly accepted every idea.

    “Why does it intensify over time, and intensify exponentially in the face of the most truthful, cathartic whistleblowing? ”

    People seem to mock up a “Scientology mind” would be my guess. There seems to be this common denominator between many Scientologists which is a “Scientology mind.” If you step out of that mind set, the group that has this common denominator seems to turn against you.

    However, the majority of people that explore Scientology clearly do not mock up a Scientology mind. Thousands have explored Scientology since the 1950 and checked it out and moved on and remained whole. They had their own way and were happy to keep whatever mind they were thinking with. But when a person REACTS to any questioning or challenge about Scientology, refuses to adjust their thinking against the back drop of truth, I think they have mocked up a Scientology mind they will protect. It is almost as if they replaced the reactive mind with a substitute.

    All Scientologists are not the same. The ones that are lodged there now against the backdrop of every smoking gun and reason not to be, seem to have a common denominator mind set, of a “Scientology mind” they can not step away from. They think this “loyalty” when it is highly abberrated. They and fundamentalists are as easily controlled by this “Scientology mind” as they were controlled by the reactive mind. And they are preyed upon.

    Frankly, I don’t think the “analytical mind” is very beneficial either. People are always looking into it instead of what is in front of them. And falling back on systems. It is kind of a via of it’s own.

  205. On the other side of that, it seems there are also people who mock up an Anti Scientology Mind. And they seem to get just stuck in that one. It can not be penetrated no matter how you might try to ease it off a person.

  206. These books are not about religion. They are about practice and goals.

    I would suggest “How to Know God: The Aphorisms of Patanjili and Autobiography of a Yogi. The version stated.

    They were written for the westerner in mind.

    And, there is not one western mystic who has not read these two books and quote them from time to time.

    All that we know of the goals and practices come from the Vedas. We are now at a place in our evolution where we have a plethora of western mystics who are to a great degree a byproduct of this knowledge.

    Although Yogananda does have a world wide movement, his book has done something quite extraordinary: I have many friends from many different paths who owe there inspirtion to find their path to this book. It has the capacity to jump start one’s interests and enthusiasm for the search. 

    And there is no mystic eastern or western worth their salt who is unfamiliar with Patanjaji’s Yoga Sutras. These sutras are not religion. They are the codification of goals, practices and theories.

    You can’t go wrong with these two books as a start. Or wait for Marty’s course.

  207. Nice MR.

    We are perfect and improving:-)

  208. Mark, Karma is simply cause and effect. Nothing more. If you study medicine, you become a doctor. If you rape someone, you go to jail. If you don’t exercise and eat cookies all day you get sick.

    Somehow Ron misdefined karma. Or conveniently avoided it. He thought he was above it.

    His legacy is the best advertisement for the inherent truth of karma.

    You water your garden because there are laws of gardening.

    The universe is based on laws not for nefarious control reasons. But to instruct. Very simple. Ron thought he was above these things: not!

  209. Indeed. Ron had a mission. For all his dark side he still fanned the fires of liberation for many. His well promoted image and realizations had in auditing caught the eye of many people who may have not been interested in spiritual pursuits other wise.

    Promises of powers, fantastic magic carpet rides and scientific sophistry was just what us westerners resonated with.

    It promised independents from karma. It made the ego into god. And matched the western rugged individualistic model to a tee.

  210. The hallmarks of entrapment and its attendant suffering that I mentioned above, are lack of control, lack of essential information, conflict and uncertainty.

    Those over time outweigh any gains derived from auditing and training, unless one was lucky enough, to obtain relief from Scientology, and immediately abandon it and have no further connection to it or its members.

  211. And I’m happy to know that there is the beginnings of ‘a real set of circumstances in the real world’ and it will go away. I was not aware of my feelings (emotions) relating directly to actual physical body pains before so if this is what it took then so be it. I’m sure it all has to do with electricity somehow. Ron had it correct that there is measurable electricity in thought and emotion. Whether he had the source (thought or emotion) correct or not is another question. It’s possible that he was addressing a symptom instead of the source despite saying otherwise. He may have given too much credit to the reactive mind. I believe there other ways to be beyond the emersion into the emotions of life without hours of addressing them. Like reading some books from Marty’s list for starters.

  212. Mark

    Yes,it seems that LRH was not talking about purely physical flow phenomena but was more addressing “theta created” flow phenomena.

    But his statements, even taken in that regard, show a rather simplistic model, or construct. His construct does not appear to hold up to close inspection in either arena.

    My guess is that he had not inspected it very closely himself but had just settled upon it as a way of explaining certain phenomena.

    This type of very authoritative and definitive statement of the broad application of one of his random thoughts is very common in his speech and writings.

    He said somewhere that when he was giving information he would clearly specify whether it was a LAW or his OPINION, but it is rare to hear him give any information which he notes is just his opinion. Most everything he says, however, is stated as though it is an unalterable law of the universe.

    The bottom line is that, just like for the rest of us, EVERYTHING he says is just his opinion, or his postulates. Taken as such, one has an easier time of evaluating what he has said.

    Eric S

  213. Brian;
    I get what you are saying about Karma in it’s original and basic definitions. It seems that the original proposals of distant past were perfectly logical and sensible. Treat people like crap, and you will get treated like crap, as well as treat yourself like crap. Simple. The ideas and complexities of an ethereal exterior force imposing Karma on one seemed to come later as many sages and ‘wise men’ put their two cents worth into the fray.

    The Karma I was referring to is the common cliche idea of a self balancing universe which imposes rules upon the individual or group. What I was proposing is that there is some evidence to suggest that this is partially true, but even those great cosmic forces can eventually be traced back to the individual or to others. That these forces are actually subconscious or
    reactive in nature, and that the effects can be transmitted spiritually beyond your physical reach.

    My actual message is that all rules that seem to be imposed on us, all the “way things work” are actually forgotten inventions which do not have to be obsessively followed. Even the idea of exchange is a made up and imposed idea. It doesn’t HAVE to be that way. It is fine to understand and use these rules and laws to get along in this world, but they do not have to use you. You have a choice. That anyone can slip out from under their thumb to varying degrees and that how successful you are is a gradient which will increase with increased understanding.

    Such is the case with flows as defined in Scientology. Considering these “laws of the universe” with seriousness makes them solid. Looking at them with lightheartedness and serenity releases you from them. And anyone can start right now.

    Hope this helps to explain my understanding or lack thereof. Your thoughts and comments are welcome and desired.
    ARCL, Mark

  214. Excellent observations, Brian. The more I learn, the smarter you get.
    One thing that I will always be thankful to Ron for is the concept that nothing is unknowable. That nothing is too great for us mere mortals.

    Even the adage that ‘absolute power corrupts absolutely’ doesn’t HAVE to be that way. But as history proves, it is most difficult to resist. Keep in mind that there have been many thousands of religious leaders through history who had great potential power over their followers, but succeeded in using it wisely.

  215. Thank you Marildi.
    I love you too.

  216. Excellent comment, LG.
    Communication must be duplicatable to the receipt point.
    My favorite metaphor is from American football. The QB must make his communication (passed football) duplicatable (catchable) to the receipt point (receiver). Placing fault on the understanding (skill) of the receiver is an error.

  217. Interested Party

    Does anyone else think LRH was wrong with the way he symbolized identity reactive “thinking” as in “A=A=A”? I think the concept is fine but that statement is wrong. It is supposed to communicate that every separate and different thing is identified with every other separate and different thing. Surely the right way to express that would be “A=B=C=D”. Because A really is A.

  218. Thanks, Eric.
    Ron Flatly Stated the laws of life and the universe. He also stated that all these laws were opinions. But he said these in reverse order and perhaps forgot what he said first.

    Maybe with the aid of hindsight, experience and a little work, we can get it right. Your contributions have been valuable.

  219. It means “anything equals anything equals anything.” (Tech Dictionary)

  220. I see your point. In reactive thinking, A,B, and C are viewed as the same. But in severe reactive thinking, EVERYTHING IS VIEWED AS A with no thoughts that there is a B or C.

    My favorite definitions of intelligence are; The ability to detect differences, similarities, and identities, and: The ability to assign relative importances.

    Reactive thinking takes away these abilities and at the lowest point on the scale at apathy becomes: “Oh well, nothing matters, it’s all the same.”
    Thanks, Mark

  221. Mark, here’s a link to “Volume XIV” which has confidential issues (apparently all of them) for the Original and New OT levels and the L’s. Easy to download. http://mirror.die.net/banned/scientology-ot-levels.pdf

    On a quick “Find” search I see there’s a bulletin titled “FLYING RUDS ON SOLO OT III AND ABOVE.” Btw, I get from Elizabeth that she uses the rudiments as processes and doesn’t end off with an F/N but keeps going earlier-similar.

    Click to access scientology-ot-levels.pdf


    LRH saw that too and described it in this excerpt, along with the mechanics involved – the interaction of energies:

    “One believes he can use any facsimile he has ever received. He has been hurt. He uses the facsimile of being hurt to hurt another. BUT SINCE ONE SURVIVES AS WELL AS EVERYTHING ELSE SURVIVES, TO HURT ANOTHER IF WRONG [my caps]. One regrets the injury, seeking to turn back time (which is regret). Thus the facsimile he used becomes interlocked with his facsimile of trying to use it and both facsimiles “hang up” and travel with present time. One even gets the pain he seeks to inflict on another, this being the action against him of the facsimile he sought to give, by action, to another. It startles the preclear, when run through a boyhood fight, wherein he hit another boy in the eye, to feel the pain in his own eye at the instant of the blow. And so it is with all inflicted injuries.

    “This is a simple matter of the interaction of the pictures of energy.” )

  223. Mutual. 🙂

  224. Eric S: “Yes,it seems that LRH was not talking about purely physical flow phenomena but was more addressing “theta created” flow phenomena. But his statements, even taken in that regard, show a rather simplistic model, or construct. His construct does not appear to hold up to close inspection in either arena.”

    Can you be more specific, Eric?

  225. Can you share a real life example (from your own self) where you have observed yourself (perhaps in hindsight) doing A=A=A?

  226. Interested Party,
    I’m not an expert in Kinesiology, so I never did double blind tests neither I have read related Kinesiology research material. From my own experience as a subject of the arm test, when I cannot hold my arm, I feel an unequivocal weakness on my arm while the operator pushes it down.

  227. TO
    You are putting this so well. Thank you!
    I had always made the assumption that Ls auditors would of course receive their own Ls processing, same as NOTs auditors.
    That is really unfair and must create a discrepency of reality with the Ls pc/preOT.

    As far as ‘always being exterior’ I like how LRH put it in History of Man p.22: …”The MEST body should not be thought of as a harbor or vessel for the theta being. A better example would be a sliver inserted unwantedly in the thumb, where the thumb would be the theta being, the MEST body the sliver’.

  228. Elizabeth,
    Since I’m not an expert in Kinesiology, if you are doing it alone, I wonder how do you do Kinesiology alone on food items.

  229. That is so true, Oracle. Just like the Scientology Mind wears blinders when it comes to any outpoints in Scientology, so does the Anti-Scientology Mind wear blinders when it comes to any truths in Scientology.

    I get that they literally cannot SEE the truths if you hold one of them up for them to view – even when they once could do so and it had been demonstrated to them personally. They go through all sorts of mental gymnastics to show how they were “fooled” or some such – just like they accuse the Scientology Mind of doing.

    No difference between these two extreme mindsets, IMO. It seems to me that there has simply been a pendulum swing for some people from one mindset to the other as a reaction to having their eyes opened to the wrongnesses. It’s a way to now make themselves right and avoid admitting that they have been blind – just as much so as they accuse others of doing who have not gone to the extreme of now seeing everything as bad.

  230. Marildi,

    I see it as much more direct than the way LRH describes it. You hurt another, you hurt yourself. It happens immediately, actually simultaneously.

  231. Gotcha Mark. Karma as a weapon of shaming and punishment. Understood.

  232. basketballjane

    Thanks Alonzo. I will keep talking. As these guys (the Church) know all too well I am not so good at keeping my mouth shut. Maybe I will make a movie. Or write a book. I don’t know. But I am thinking about both!

  233. basketballjane

    Of course before that there were good times. We laughed at least 2 times on the RPF, that we weren’t KRed for 😉 But mostly it sucked. I was lucky, although I grew up a Scientologist, my mom didn’t push it on me. I went to regular school and graduated with regular kids. My father, was the opposite. After they divorced he moved to LA to immerse himself in Scientology. He owed my mom over $35,000 in back child support but somehow made it onto OTV. He died owing her that money. He chose the church over me and my sister and STILL I wanted his love SO much that I jumped in the Sea Org as soon as my mom could no longer legally stop me. I should have listened to her. The only good that came out of me being in the Sea Org for 8 years was, while doing Honor Guard for SO day I met my husband. He was kind and nice and could do really cool sword tricks. When I left I found him and we have been together since. I have two beautiful children that are my world, my love and my sanity. So for that I am grateful. For everything else . . . . well I am planning. Let’s just say that.

  234. I got that the mutual hurt was immediate/simultaneous from this part:


    Btw, I see now that I made a typo on “IF,” which should have been “IS.”

    And I forgot to note that the quote was from .

  235. …from .

  236. Oops, didn’t show up again, apparently because of the symbols I used to show it as a book title. The reference was *Scientology 8-80*.

  237. Elizabeth Hamre

    Not alone, with my sister.. . Sorry..

  238. MaBű, I’ll tell you how I do it. I hold the item (usually a supplement, in its container) in one hand and lift a gallon jug of water with one finger while observing how heavy it seems compared to lifting it when I’m not holding the item.

    A friend of mine has another method. She puts her thumb over her little finger (over the fingernail) and presses them against each other and notes how weak or strong those muscles feel. (Now that I describe her method, I think I’ll try it that way myself.)

    With practice you become more perceptive of the differences in muscle strength. And of course you have to be in PT, TR-0 in, so as not to sway the result according to expectations or whatever.

  239. I should note that the gallon jug is lifted with a finger from the other hand, not from the hand holding the item. 🙂

  240. Elizabeth Hamre

    Maurice Hi… you are right.. just having the thoughts alone doing the damage to self..

  241. A lot of wisdom in the golden mean.

    “In philosophy, especially that of Aristotle, the ‘golden mean’ is the desirable middle between two extremes, one of excess and the other of deficiency. For example, in the Aristotelian view, courage is a virtue, but if taken to excess would manifest as recklessness, and if deficient as cowardice.”


    “The Middle Way” is a Buddhist term with rich connotations. Most simply, it implies a balanced approach to life and the regulation of one’s impulses and behavior, close to Aristotle’s idea of the “golden mean” whereby “every virtue is a mean between two extremes, each of which is a vice.”


    Another early elaboration is the Doric saying carved on the front of the temple at Delphi: “Nothing in Excess”.

  242. All of this advice wholly contrary of course to, “All or nothing!” or, “Win or die in the attempt”. This is the “Soldier’s mind”.

    I think Hubbard was not of one mindset. Co mingling of the minds is rather like co mingling funds. Things can become very murky.

  243. If I were to say anything about L12, it would be that I was able to sort out some various minds, and get them filed into the proper drawers for the proper occasions.

    The entire arena of Scientology has boomed into a war zone, with littered bodies everywhere. And those that did not join in or take sides, are referred to as “deserters”.

    This is the ser fac run on the Freezoners and the X.S.O..

    The purpose to push others up has been wholly discounted against everyone’s need to protect themselves from attacks.

    Those that are out here staying the course are discounted in value in this war.

    This is the why behind Miscavige cancelling every auditor’s certs every few years. Posting them on call in posts and degrading their value by posting class Xll labels on class lV auditors.

    That man is wholly socked in to a military mind. One on extreme.

    On the other he displays extreme cowardice. He can not travel alone and has employed a retinue of security and body guards for years to abate his severe paranoia.

    He didn’t join the U.S. Marines to become a Commander. He wriggled his way into a group of auditors and paid for his own ribbons and medals.

    It doesn’t have to be sad. It is comical when viewed from a certain angle.

  244. We can know directly. Yes, that is a good message. One that would challenge even him when us students demanded that right.

    Ramakrishna, a pivitol Indian sage and teacher of Vivekananda used to have his students sit around and ask them to debate points of his teachings.

    Vivekananda at one point communicated to his teacher a doubt to Ramakrishna’s sanity about his experiences.

    Now that’s what I call independents. Open discussion. True freedom of independent tbought.

    Makes the idea of crushing criticism and making it a high crime an incredibly insecure and idiotic doctrine. Especially when the PR line is freedom.

  245. Oracle wrote:

    That man [Miscavige] is wholly socked in to a military mind. One on extreme.

    It could have had something to do with his training.


  246. Hi Marildi

    Ok…How about this?

    One can find scenarios where his constructs do seem to apply, but it is not so hard to find flow phenomena that do not seem to fit into his construct of “stuck flows” and the concept of them reversing.

    A physical example of a flow that seems to never produce a “back flow” phenomena is that rivers will flow into lower areas until they dry up. There is no reverse flow at all.

    When a light bulb gets turned off, I do not see all the lights previous energy flowing back into it. Or any of it, in fact.

    This is why I tend to evaluate that he may have been primarily referring to “theta” created flows… But again, from my experience a being seems to be able to “flow” energy indefinitely, unless he is flowing it toward something that is tending toward producing a return flow. If his apparent “stuck” outflow or inflow is being met with some other intent to reverse that flow from their viewpoint, as in a conversation, then insistence (knowingly or unknowingly) upon only flowing in one direction will likely produce some kind of stress and perhaps increasing “back pressure” until his flow is overwhelmed.

    But it is observable that when two beings are intent on only outflow, ridges, or buildups of counter flowing energy, are formed, when they attempt to carry this out with each other.
    On the other hand if the flows are both inflow then I do not see ridges forming but perhaps “vacuums”. You do not get “standing waves” but perhaps “sunken troughs”.

    I do not see that the phenomena of the flows reversing is a “given” in either case.

    However, in the realm of consideration, a being may outflow and outflow and outflow but gradually he might start to notice he is getting no return flow. He may tend to crave some inflow. Beings actually seem to pull flows down on themselves to remedy this lack. It is the same in “overt-motivator” phenomena. Ron has designated ALL outflow as “overt” flows, and ALL inflow as “motivator flows”. Not in the sense of “ethics”, but just in the sense that one tends to “respond to” ( be motivated by) inflows and when he outflows he tends to do so in order to get responses, or produce effects.

    OK… How am I doing so far? I do not want to “hog the blog”, so if you have any more specific questions I will try to address them specifically rather than simply rambling.

    Also, I do not have a well thought answer to your question as I am evolving as I consider and reconsider my own and other viewpoints. I am often “winging it” as I go along.


  247. Divine comedy. Like Dante’s poem:

    “The core seven sins…correspond to a moral scheme of love perverted, subdivided into three groups corresponding to excessive love (Lust, Gluttony, Greed), deficient love (Sloth), and malicious love (Wrath, Envy, Pride)” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Comedy

  248. Oracle: “The entire arena of Scientology has boomed into a war zone, with littered bodies everywhere. And those that did not join in or take sides, are referred to as ‘deserters’.”

    In other words, we still haven’t graduated from Scientology and all the other mindsets like it.

  249. Another one worth quoting:

    “I think Hubbard was not of one mindset. Co mingling of the minds is rather like co mingling funds. Things can become very murky.”

    Great set of posts here, Oracle.

  250. In other words, I can be comfortable with a trans gender and/or a trans mental.

    Things do not always have to be black or white for me with other people.

    It doesn’t have to be, “This way or that way”. They don’t have to be “This way or that way”. “he is good” “Or he is bad” or whatever.

    My own identity and my own ideas are not threatened by other figures or concepts laid before me. It is better to form your own ideas than to live on someone else’s. You know how and why all the time, how and why you come to your own conclusions.

    You can not know how and why other people come to theirs. So if you think with them, and have no idea why, it makes you a little wobbly. I think it also a kind of identity theft. I do not mistake my ideas for others peoples and neither their ideas for mine.

    There is a scarcity of new ideas. At least Scientology was an original thought. Plenty was borrowed from other places, Hubbard did not invent the emeter. But he put together a package that was different.

    I guess he could have opted to sell insurance and read the Bible. But there were quite a few people doing that already and living very safely.

    Just as there were quite a few people playing classical piano very safely when Bill Haley and the Comets cut their first rock and roll record.

    Some people can take a walk on the wild side, and come out whole.

    Plenty of people got involved in Scientology who, quite frankly, were a little bit fragile for that kind of experience. If they had been out selling insurance and reading the Bible, sticking to a sure fire win, they would be a lot happier today. Kids never should have been bought into this mix and forced to think with it. Whew, that was as wrong as wrong can get.

    I am exactly the kind of person cut out for this kind of adventure. When I came in, I had nothing to lose. And I was very curious about the invisible.

    I did not want to be afraid, of what was up there, beyond the sky.

  251. People afraid of the invisible, are afraid to die. And then they choose to live in ways that can bend and degrade mind, body or spirit. I wasn’t afraid to live. I wasn’t afraid to die. But I wasn’t willing to die. Because I didn’t understand the invisible. And I knew as long as I wasn’t willing to die, I could be compromised in nature.

  252. MarkNR wrote:

    I see your point. In reactive thinking, A,B, and C are viewed as the same. But in severe reactive thinking, EVERYTHING IS VIEWED AS A with no thoughts that there is a B or C.

    I appreciate your post, Mark, but in real logic, that’s still A=B.

    Hubbard’s lack of real logic training for Scientologists, versus the decoys he did provide to them in the Data Series shows exactly what Hubbard’s intentions were for Scientololgists:

    Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex
    Data Series 2


    “The subject of logic has been under discussion for at least three thousand years without any clean breakthrough of real use to those who work with data”.

    “LOGIC means the subject of reasoning. Some in ages past have sought to label it a science. But that can be discarded as pretense and pompousness.’

    “If there were such a “science” men would be able to think. And they can’t.
    The term itself is utterly forbidding. If you were to read a text on logic you would go quite mad trying to figure it out, much less learn how to think.’

    “Yet logic or the ability to reason is vital to an organizer or administrator. If he cannot think clearly he will not be able to reach the conclusions vital to make correct decisions.’

    “Many agencies, governments, societies, groups capitalize upon this lack of logic and have for a very long time. For the bulk of the last 2,000 years the main western educator-the Church-worked on the theory that Man should be kept ignorant. A population that is unable to think or reason can be manipulated easily by falsehoods and wretched causes.”

    “Thus logic has not been a supported subject, rather the opposite”.

    Given what you know of real logic, Mark, do you see what he did there?


  253. “How am I doing so far?”

    Eric, thanks very much! In answer to your question, I’d say you are doing pretty well. You wrote that Ron “may have been primarily referring to ‘theta’ created flows… But again, from my experience a being seems to be able to ‘flow’ energy indefinitely.”

    I found the lecture that I think Dan Koon was referring to in his comment, and I think it backs up what you wrote above. Here’s an excerpt:

    “And a flow which flows – there’s a little interesting thing here – a flow which flows a certain time in one direction tends to continue to flow until it is totally jammed or stopped. Now it’s just the phenomenon of flow all by itself. A flow flowing long enough in one direction in the mind eventually flows harder and harder, not easier and easier. Why? Why? This is only true when energy is being employed.

    “And the more an individual outflows energy the more vacuum he creates on his side of the flow. And he’s creating a nice little vacuum there, and the more he flows out, the more hole he leaves in the Swiss cheese called the bank. And eventually something is trying to pull that back in. He’s got a missingness, don’t you see, now, in the energy masses immediately surrounding him, and it itself tries to fill itself up by pulling back on the same line. And it’s like taking a rubber band and just stretching it further and further and further – nnnnrrrrrrrnnuh – well, now the analogy is not too good because what happens eventually is it just sticks. His effort to hold it out there is so great that he can only hold it motionlessly out there. And he’s got it stuck…

    “Now, if he’s creating with postulates and not with energy flows he could go on forever.” (18th ACC, 22 Jul 57, “Control”)

    You can download the transcript, and a lot of other Scientology materials here: http://www.stss.nl

  254. Look at the power the “S.P. declare” has over people’s “Scientology lives”. It’s like the kiss of death. People piss their pants to see golden rod. It really keys them into something.

    I was never bothered by goldenrod and rarely bothered to read it. Did get a call once ordering me ethics and I told her to send me a subpeona. She never called back.

    I did many things in the Church which could have gotten me declared. Not to others. Things like walking off post, walking off base with out permissions, holidays with out permissions, leaving the Sea Org with out permission! I never got a declare. May have one now. I was just willing to “die”. Not like anyone would have ever believed I was a suppressive person anyway. Who did I suppress? It would have been gross out P.R. for the Sea Org to declare me. In the public sector.

    Truth is, this all wraps back to Marty’s advice, on “letting go”.

  255. Listening to the book you recommended that was written by Fredrick Douglas. Fantastic book, one of the best I have read or heard.

  256. Here is another thing I learned about karma. Karma is not some mysterious force, some abstract thing that cannot be comprehended.

    Karma operates through the instrumentality of our conscience. Being that the records of the mind are in fact permanent, our actions are stored as memory as any good Scientologist knows.

    Conscience is the intuitive channel to knowing. We cognize what is good and bad. WE KNOW, on a very pure and deep level, as Ron said.

    Since the Universe is basically a school, we are taught about life by interacting with it and learning principles and how to apply principles back to life.

    Since suffering is non optimum, when we cause it for selfish reasons or even by accident or are oblivious to the suffering we cause, the universe/our conscience, sets up a similar circumstance so that we realize that causing it hurts. Because we are now hurting. We then say, “I will never act like that.”

    The criterion for the degree of good or bad karma is based on motive.
    If our motive is purely selfish, the karma could be more intense because we will manufacture, in order to understand selfishness, by being the victim of selfishness. This is basic knowledge for a Scientologist.

    This entire culture, this entire planet is interacting on a karmic soul level for the purpose of working things out and learning.

    Thus perpetrators and victims are in a macabre tango.

    We store our actions in the infinite mind computer and mock up situations in which to purge ourselves of selfishness and ultimately learn to serve. Once we fully understand that when we hurt others we hurt ourselves, we love our neighbor as ourself.

    Then we make good karma. But ultimately we, the soul, is above karma as God is above karma. For we are the dreamer of dreams.

    But to consider we are above karma when we are still in the ignorant state can be very destructive to ourselves and others.

    That is why there are universal codes of decency. As students, that is our first basic responsibility. Cause no harm. Otherwise we place such a burden back onto ourselves.

    The masters say, “the truly liberated soul is above karma because they see life as themselves. They only want to serve, because they see themselves suffering in others.

    And that is the very definition of Bodhisattva: one who vows to always come back until every sentient being is free.

    Once a Buddhist monk was on the road. A man came by and robbed him of his water pot. The Buddhist monk bowed to him in gratitude.
    The robber then said, “why are you so relaxed and happy. I just robbed you!”

    Then the monk said, “I am so thankful, that you took the burden from my shoulders and put it on your own. Thank you”

  257. I’m doing fine with the Scientology auditing myself. The rest was just distraction. And I did not get chewed up and spit out with it. Can’t say I was really part of the culture, even when I was in the Sea Org. I did get curios er and curios er about Scientologists though. People, and how they got there and why. What they were thinking and why. I could probably write a book about Scientologists from different cultures and different parts of the world, that would be hysterically funny. I have a lot of good memories. The bad ones really, are of what others did to others.
    But I am getting up to letting go of that too. As soon as I can rise above my own addiction for another human being, and the conversations possible, I will not be so concerned with keeping them all intact.

    Ooohhh the conversations are so damned addicitve! Because suddenly, the conversation can change everything in the space around you. And the particle flow around here is very fixed and slow. The fastest change most people will see with themselves this week is at the beauty salon. But in a conversation, you can swiiiiich from east to west in a split second!

    We are still having some great conversations that are revealing of our natures. The world ain’t coming to an end. This is still a very new civilization. Cell phones and television sets are new. Of course there is going to be some stumbling around and learning to walk. Weaning ourselves off of superstition and illusion. Of course there is going to be leaning on others and then blaming them for fractures. The most addictive drug on this planet, is another human being. This tends to cloud a lot of situations. Scientology can enhance this “need” up to a point because you can not have the experience without the auditor. I was aware my entire time that I was a form of addict with a need. That was a humiliation I admitted. That I was not going to have the adventure with out admitting this need. But hell, I need the electric company too.

    I did not expect that I would never be let down by others, in Scientology. I just did not expect to let myself down. And I didn’t. If you are walking down a road and you cross paths with someone that sells you an apple, and you unwrap it the next day to find a plum, you can only stay pissed for a second. Maybe you even laugh at yourself for not having verified what was in the wrapper. (I would). But if are walking down a road and you are looking up and you walk off a cliff, that is something you are going to have a harder time getting over.

    I did not and would not use, “other people” to fuck myself up. I can’t say anyone in my Scientology adventure fucked me up. I invite people into my living room, I don’t give them run of the house. When I go to someone else’s house, it is always with a way to get back home if things aren’t highly beneficial.

    “Maximum creation, minimum destruction” takes some advance planning.

    Not sure if “being in present time” is idyllic at all. I keep the biggest part of me in the future. It is very quiet there with no distractions at all. In fact, I am usually the only one there!

  258. Reminds me of a quote from Einstein, Mark:

    “”The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible” (Physics and Reality, 1936).

  259. I did not get into the soldier mindset that was woven into the Scientology works. Because I knew on some level, Hubbard was not a better soldier than me. I did not come in for soldier lessons. And we were not in any war.

    A good soldier does not use others to do his bidding. Good soldiers are on the front lines, not hiding in secret locations. A good soldier is facing, reaching. Not hiding and with drawing. A good soldier seeks out his enemy and meets the enemy head on. A good soldier hunts his enemy, he does not become the hunted. He does not hide behind others or get into shape shifting and vanishing tricks.

    Rulers and politicians are covert. Soldiers are overt. The purpose of a soldier is to bypass. The Sea Org staff were set up to obey and comply.

    He was not a politician either. I need not go there. Not sure why those staff got so war like and puffed up with the soldier garb. Marching drills and all that. But it was wholly ridiculous. And made the subject of Scientology seem trans gender.

  260. A good soldier does not carry the burden of public relations.

    To transfer spiritual awareness, one must become a master at public relations.

    You can’t be both. Look at the out P.R. these pretend soldiers have created for Scientology.

    Just because someone gives you a license to act a fool does not mean you have to take it and run with it.

  261. Can you imagine falling into a Church, or a rehab center out here. They take you in. Promise to heal your wounds. Promise to restore you. You are there for three days being helped and you wake up on the fourth day and you are put in front of an army recruiter. You are told joining the war is part of your rehab / restoration.

    Hoe many people do you actually think would sign on?

  262. Hi Marty. I watched a documentary on BBC Knowledge about you and the Church of Scientology over here in South Africa. it was really educational. Here is a site that I thought that would bless you. It is the Father’s love letter. Watch first the short video/audio, and then you can check out the text after that if you want to: http://www.fathersloveletter.com
    Blessings form South Africa! Jurgen

  263. Aaah, the tax man co-meth yet again. You want me to give up something. To surrender something. My ideas. My understanding. Anything that would put me on the same page as a loss. These are the invisible contributions I am asked for. I am hounded to position my identity with that of the disenfranchised. Otherwise I live with some deficiency. Unintelligent and other possibilities. I’m not your bad guy. I’m not your good guy. What to do with me?

  264. christianscientology

    Brian your suggested reading list, No1 “How to know God”; in the book I am reading “The Mystery Experience” it quotes “In the ancient Hindu Rig Veda it says ‘who knows the truth?’ Only the God who sees in the highest heaven. He only knows, or perhaps not even he knows?”

    So I would be interested to know what you have to say on No.1.


  265. christianscientology

    Hi Mark

    Your statement “NOTHING IS UNKNOWABLE” is the ultimate paradox. Are you saying that NOTHING CANN’T BE KNOWN or that EVERYTHING CAN BE KNOWN?


    Answers on a postcard please!

  266. This is just my offering up on this “instilled ignorance” subject. It is a situation. This is a more than valid point. This is a situation.

  267. Marty hit it right on. Instilled ignorance. How can you have an entire L’s HGC delivering the L’s and nobody in that fucking place in charge has done an L? This blog post of his has dragged out the biggest itsa I have ever offered up. He is 100% right. This is straight up wrong folks. Keeping people ignorant is a plan. It does not happen by accident. These people in the Sea Org pledged to a billion years and audited for decades and they need to be kept ignorant?

  268. christianscientology

    The book that everyone should read!

    I came across this quote of Emma from the Ex-Scientologist message board http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?3162-The-Power-of-Now-Eckhart-Tolle “I’ve learnt more about who I am and what is truly ‘wrong’ with me in a few chapters from this book (The Power of Now) than 9 years of Scientology”.

    Yes, The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle is a great read but I have now come across another book this time by Timothy Freke “How Long is Now – How to be spiritually awake in the real world”.

    I haven’t yet read it but it was the Prologue that sold it to me, which you can read for free on Amazon.

    One of the things that kept me faithful to the whole Scientology thing was “The Factors”. Before I met with The Factors,I had never read anything that started “Before the Beginning was a Cause”. Any subject that starts before the “big bang” will always get my attention, and so it is with this book “How Long is Now”. It starts off “before the beginning there was a primal imagination with the power to imagine everything…………..”

    We all know from Scientology that if looking at something does not resolve it “go earlier” how much earlier can we go? BEFORE THE BEGINNING!

    Love and ARC

  269. God can be known. It is the very essence of the Vedas. Veda means to know.
    Claiming oneness with the creator got Jesus in a heap big mess.

    Constantines Christianity, Judaism and Islam, the three Abrahmic faiths, put God into some abstract unknowable heaven.

    All three are an only way. All three crushed any connection to India: the mother of all religions.

    India never was a “many god” religion. India was a many approach to one God religion.

    God can be known. All that is required is the correct theory and practice. Practice with devotion and regularity.

  270. Regarding knowing: the Upanishads is that part of the Vedas that deal with knowing.

  271. Oracle wrote:

    You want me to give up something. To surrender something. My ideas. My understanding. Anything that would put me on the same page as a loss. These are the invisible contributions I am asked for. I am hounded to position my identity with that of the disenfranchised. Otherwise I live with some deficiency. Unintelligent and other possibilities.

    Thank you for giving me your viewpoint here.

    I understand you better now.

    Seeking to live with the truth is an activity which produces constantly changing positions. It is an activity where you abandon indefensible positions when new information arises that reveal the old position to be indefensible. When you change your position to one which is more in line with the new information, you get closer and closer to the truth. And you always end up with a net gain.

    It takes courage, which you have in spades. It takes integrity, which you have in spades. It takes honesty, which you have in spades. And it takes humility, which we both could use a little more of.

    It is pride which produces continual losses, and which impedes the quest to always seek to live with the truth.

    How do I know that?

    I’m not tellin.


  272. Well, all of the long winded speeches about Scientology Tech and its miracles are not going to change the fact that it is a Fundamentalist Religion, and that it is busy churning out a new generation of Hezbollah Fighters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

    That it is degenerating at a rapid pace, and if it not were for all the work that a lot of people are doing exposing their crimes and their institutionalized civil right violations, which were mandated by Hubbard in the first place; this “adventure” would quickly turn into a living nightmare, as it already has for thousands of people.

    Please, please, never let the facts stand in front of your illusions.

  273. Sharia Law,
    Etymology and origins,
    Scholars describe the word sharia as an archaic Arabic word denoting “pathway to be followed”,[31][32] or “path to the water hole”.[35] The latter definition comes from the fact that the path to water is the whole way of life in an arid desert environment.[33]

    The etymology of sharia as a “path” or “way” comes from the Quranic verse[Quran 45:18]: “Then we put thee on the (right) Way of religion so follow thou that (Way), and follow not the desires of those who know not.”[32] Malik Ghulam Farid in his Dictionary of the Holy Quran, believes the “Way” in 45:18 (quoted above) derives from shara’a (as prf. 3rd. p.m. sing.), meaning “He ordained”. Other forms also appear: shara’u[Quran 45:13] as (prf. 3rd. p.m. plu.), “they decreed (a law)”[Quran 42:21]; and shir’atun (n.) meaning “spiritual law”[Quran 5:48].[36]


  274. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip… yes all the Paths lead to before the Beginning.

  275. Interested Party

    This is interesting Alanzo. I’ve had similar thoughts. It is a glaring omission that there hasn’t been a course in basic logic in Scientology. The Data Series is very good for investigations but it isn’t about logic. LRH says in more than one lecture that Aristotle messed up the subject with “two valued logic”. I’ve seen others take this as a given on Aristotle. Well in the last few years I’ve studied basic Aristotelian logic and it isn’t what Ron was talking about and condemning. It is actually what he used himself in order to figure out such things as the axioms. Deductive logic isn’t something that is incompatible with “infinity valued logic”. It is perfectly compatible and both are essential as far as I can see.

    Infinity valued logic applies to quantities of something that can be put on a spectrum of answers such as how hot it is or how red or how it contributes to survival. But there are many times when the answer is a definite yes or no (or perhaps I don’t know) such as is the engine running? did you turn off the oven? Are all houses made of brick?

    In the quote you make above I agree with Ron that the subject of Logic is not a subject “the powers that be” want to have widely known. The same goes for economics and a few other subjects. There are definite reasons these subject are suppressed. But that doesn’t mean the subjects were never developed.

    I do not believe LRH himself had any reasons for suppressing the subject of Logic. I think he was just mistaken. I don’t know that he ever studied Aristotle outside of what Will Durant had to say about him in “The Story of Philosophy”. That book doesn’t really do justice to any of the philosophers he wrote about. It’s far too short and slanted toward what he himself thought of the philosophers.

  276. Interested Party

    It is also the case that pretty much any result from a Google search for Logic 101 will turn up information that is far from something that will drive you nuts. It might actually be found to provide some profound cognitions.

  277. Marildi

    Thank you. I had either missed or forgotten he had said some of that.


  278. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian… question to you… how god can be known? Please explain…

  279. Very thoughtful post, IP.

    I appreciate it.

    But I see a little more to it than just a mistake. The part of the HCOPL on logic that I bolded shows that he knows the importance of learning real logic. And why it is important.

    But there’s more.

    I remember listening to an LRH lecture (and I can’t remember the time frame or even the subject matter) but he makes the statement in it that it is important to know how to create disinterest in others. That statement stuck out like a sore thumb to me at the time. “Why on Earth would anyone want to create disinterest in others?” I thought.

    I believe the above quote from Data Series 2 is an example of LRH creating disinterest in Scientologists for the subject of logic. Here’s how he did it:

    1. He invalidated the subject of logic and its originators like Socrates, Plato and Aristotle (you would go mad trying to figure out, etc)

    2. He provided Scientologists with the Data Series as decoy for real logic so as to create “A population [of Scientologists] that is unable to think or reason [and which] can be manipulated easily by falsehoods and wretched causes.”


    Because one of the first things you learn in real logic is the ad hominem fallacy – a way to create disinterest and divert attention away from what someone is saying by attacking them as a person rather than examining what they have to say.

    LRH’s PTS/SP technology is based on the Ad Hominem fallacy which is always very easy to spot when you learn real logic. The PTS/SP tech, as well as many other techniques he used to create disinterest, was Hubbard’s way to manipulate Scientologists away from the statements that PTSes and SPs made, and onto their person.

    There is also his use of labeling people as “black fives”, or “DBs”, or with being “1.1” or “low on the tone scale”. All these are simply diversions that create disinterest in what the critic or whistleblower or opponent may have to say.

    The “SP” (the person who found out the truth of what LRH was up to and was willing to talk to other Scientologists about it) was always Hubbard’s main problem in any area he established Scientology.

    Logic and critical thinking skills teach the ability to examine statements and test the soundness of the reasoning which brought about their conclusions. This was a common enemy to L Ron Hubbard, constantly crashing his stats wherever he went.

    He also created disinterest with “The Psychs”, another source of information which would educate the Scientologist as to what L Ron Hubbard was really up to.

    I believe that it was much more than just a mistake, IP. I believe that the bolded part of Data Series 2 proves that he knew what he was doing the whole time – intentionally manipulating Scientologists with falsehoods and wretched causes, and constantly covering his tracks through the use of disinterest.


  280. TO, awesome series of posts! I don’t know if you would agree, and I hope it doesn’t offend you in any way, but to me you have expressed what LRH, at least originally, intended for people to arrive at – complete flexibility of thought and freedom to be oneself. Even the part you wrote about “addiction for another human being” reminded me of what he said about the perils of being in ARC with humans – but there are answers in the tech for that too, from what I get. Anyway, these are some of the best, if not THE best, set of comments you’ve made. Like reading poetry!

  281. And thank you, Eric, for the comm.

  282. Interested Party: “LRH says in more than one lecture that Aristotle messed up the subject with ‘two valued logic’.”

    I don’t think he said that two-valued logic was “messed up” or should never be used. His point was that it should not be the ONLY way to think. Here’s a quote from SOS:

    “In older ways of thinking, which permitted ONLY [my caps] two-valued logic, which is to say black and white or right and wrong with no in-between values, the tone scale and its usefulness would have been greatly decreased. In Dianetics, there is a new way of thinking about things which underlies a great deal of its technology. Instead of two-valued logic or three-valued logic we have infinity-valued logic. Here is a gradient scale which permits no absolute at either end. In other words there is not an absolute right and an absolute wrong, just as there is no absolute stillness and no absolute motion. Of course, it is one of the tenets of Dianetics that absolutes are not attainable but only approachable. Thus, We have gradient scales.:

  283. That has truth in it. But it is not the whole truth for me. Not sure if I have a problem being humiliated. Or if it just makes me angry when I can see someone has the purpose to humiliate me, or humiliate someone else.

    You are wearing the hat of a prosecutor, you are laying out your case against Hubbard.

    O.K., that has become a hobby.

    I am laying out my case against David Miscavige. O.K. that has become a hobby too.

    But I am not laying out my case to prove guilt. I am laying out my case because he is a real and present danger to others. He is a current menace to society. Not because he is involved in Scientology. Because he is involved in criminality. Real and current criminality.

    You seem to want me to overlook his current criminal lifestyle because he is the way he is because of memos he has read. This is a defensive argument. And no doubt when and if the man is ever arrested, his defense attorney will go right down this road.

    I don’t think that man has any allegiance to Hubbard or the Church. The minute it heated up in the courtroom, David threw the Church under the bus as an offering, to save himself. He doesn’t even think with the ARC triangle. That is clear by his legal maneuvering and the statements he issues under the name of Karen Pouw. Or whatever names he uses.

    After 30 years of domestic terrorism on others, Monique has managed to illustrate exactly what he does to others.

    This is a civil rights issue for me. Civil rights.

    This idea that the Sea Org can march out little soldiers to terrorize people who are doing nothing but exploring philosophy, in their own homes, in their own neighborhoods, is a gross violation of civil rights. People do not have valid excuses for civil rights abuses. I don’t care what memo they read.

    We have a civil rights issue here. This affects your civil rights also.

    I think this is a bigger issue than the one of philosophical viewpoints.

    I have no urge to prove Hubbard right or wrong to others. I am not here to defend my own history or argue the merits or disadvantages of other people’s views.

    I want that bully to get bought up to a point where he can realize he does not have a license to run around any town in this country and violate people’s civil rights. And, buy a license to do so.

    This is a civil rights matter for me. It should be for everyone.

    That bully is actually making everyone around him sign contracts right now to surrender their freedom of speech. It is surrender of civil rights.

    This is not about Scientology for me. It is about humanity. This should be a social concern for every citizen in this country.

    The purpose of the Church of Scientology at this point in time is to remove civil rights from under the citizens. So David Miscavige does not get in trouble when he violates them!

    That is his REAL contribution to society this week. This is my issue.

    Civil rights abuses. Human rights abuses. Being carried out in “Ideal Orgs”. In the name of “religion”. There is nothing religious about civil rights and human rights abuses. While he is down in Texas screaming about freedom of speech, he is having everyone around him sign off on their freedom of speech rights. Not because he is religious or philosophical. Because he is oppressive, criminal, vindictive, dishonest, greedy, sadistic, narcissistic, and he did not get this from a memo.

  284. Jean Kowalski

    Here is another concept on God you may find interesting.

  285. I don’t know if Scientology is any more a fundamentalist religion than Christianity, for example, which says “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man goeth unto the Father, but by me.”

    It depends how the scriptures of a religion are interpreted, and there are probably fundamentalists in all of them, but also non-fundamentalists. That’s what many of us are trying to say about Scientology – that it doesn’t have to be interpreted that way. And it doesn’t matter who changed the original “scriptures,” even if it was LRH himself.

  286. Oracle –

    Your use of the word “humiliate” was a cute semantic judo-move you threw on my use of the word “humility”.


    But you know that I’m not trying to humiliate you, or to get you or anyone else to look away from the very real threat that David Miscavige is to people right here and right now.

    I feel that it is necessary, if you are to cure something rather than just treat its symptoms, to spot the Source of the disease and to always keep the Source of the disease in mind as you come up with handlings and solutions for the cure.

    That is all.


    1. Spot the Source

    2. Then come up with a solution.

    Otherwise, in time, the next David Miscavige will be just like the first one. New Boss, Same as the Old Boss. And around and around we go.


    Does that sound sensible to you?


  287. Elizabeth Hamre

    Not alone…. with my sister Ava and it works beautifully

  288. Your argument is very clear and very well laid out, Marildi.

    Well done.

    I hope you can succeed.

    What makes me doubt you can succeed is all the justifying and looking away from, and almost total radio silence from so many Indies on Marty’s blog posts which are clearly laying out the Source of the abuse in Scientology.

    Marty is saying, without stating it flat out: “we were all totally loyal to L Ron Hubbard at INT BASE, and we were doing our best every day to follow LRH’s ethics, tech, and policy to the letter as he promised us we must to do to make it work. And this total loyalty to LRH is the source of the abusive criminal mess that the Church of Scientology has become today.”

    I don’t see many Indies at all embracing this message, or even willing to receive it. What I see them doing is hiding their heads in the sand and blaming everything on David Miscavige as if to say “Scientology would be fine if it weren’t for David Miscavige. Get rid of David Miscavige and Scientology does everything LRH ever said it would do.”

    I believe that until the Indies are willing and able to Spot Source, the potential for the same abuse is always there.

    Do you agree or not?

    Also, is there any talk among the Indies about setting up an Org in Indie-Anapolis, Indie-Ana?

    Because I think there would be a certain poetry in that.


  289. The fact that Monique Rathbun has to get David Miscavige through the Life Orientation Course is an indicator all are not on holy methods at the Int Base.

  290. The fact that someone who has to live and work with that man, has not handled him, is a really bad indicator. You have grown, middle aged and further, adults up there thinking they are saving the planet and they haven’t even learned how to deal with peer pressure!

  291. Yes, Marty’s list is very good.

    The only criticism I have of Marty’s list of books is that there aren’t enough books on logic and critical thinking in the list.

    One of the best online series of lectures I have ever listened to was a course on critical thinking by a professor at the Yale School of Medicine on critical thinking. It’s very approachable and very down to earth, with all the latest verified research on the mind and human thinking.

    It’s here:


    It changed my life for the better. It not only showed me what it meant to be scientifically literate, but more importantly showed me the LIMITS of science and where thinking on spiritual and emotional matters are vital to live a meaningful life in your own estimation.

    Science and religion, science and the spirit, are NOT in conflict.

    You’re gonna get your daughter back, Cece. Even if nothing happens to Scientology organizationally, historically the overwhelming majority of Scientologists become Ex-Scientologists at some point, simply because Scientology is not a sustainable way of life.

    It’ll happen.

    And I hope you report back to us when it does so we can share in your joy.


  292. “And this total loyalty to LRH is the source of the abusive criminal mess that the Church of Scientology has become today.”

    Whether or not the above is a fully accurate statement of Marty’s message or simply your interpretation, I would say that it’s a narrow view. A wider one is that each person is the source of their own behavior. Otherwise, you’re denying that there exists such a thing as choice. Which obviously isn’t true or Marty and the rest of us would all still be in the CoS.

    With the line of reasoning you’re using, it seems LRH is the only one capable of being source of his own viewpoints and actions. Either that or he should be given the same justification you give DM – that he was basically the effect of someone or something else

  293. Chris –

    I had this on yesterday afternoon in the background all day.

    It reminded me that I have to move back to California.

    Thank you.


  294. Interested Party

    Marildi “absolutes are not attainable” is only true where there is a gradient scale and where infinity logic does apply. It does not apply to questions such as “Are we on the moon?” “Is today Wednesday? or “Did you steal the cookies?”

    Your quote does not make your point. You might find another one that does but this one just introduces the concept, which was not a new concept by any means, that some things can be seen to fall on a scale.

    Alanzo I get what you are saying. It implies he had things that good logic would expose but you don’t point out what they are. I must also point out that very few people have studied the Data Series. It is not a course that has ever been really pushed to my knowledge and experience. And by using the Data Series a lot of the outpoints of the church do become quite obvious. It is not invalid. All I am really saying about it is that it could have gone a lot further.

    The Data Series is far more than just a decoy for real logic. It is very workable tech. Where logic would help a person discover the truth of assertions the Data Series helps to discover the causes of situations. It’s closely related but not the same thing. I have to also say that some of the Scientologists I’ve heard loudly proclaim their abilities with the Data Series have also been completely stumped with straightforward logic.

  295. Interested Party

    You are a character Alanzo 🙂

    I’m not sure that is exactly what Marty is saying or all of what Marty is saying or not. I can totally see how it could be true that he is saying that. I’m personally not much concerned with the WHO in this situation. It doesn’t much matter to me. I have found most of the tech to be workable and valuable. Where it hasn’t been, in my experience, is when it was not applied the way I thought it should be through my understanding of the data. I’ve dozens of stories I could tell about people screwing things up. But I have many more stories of seeing the tech produce great results.

    When you get a bunch of people together and tell them they are the elite, then you dress them in military uniform with a contract that symbolizes a total commitment to the cause of getting ethics in on the planet, I think you have a perfect recipe for a Stanford Prison Experiment. I don’t believe that was LRH’s intention but I do believe it was almost the inevitable outcome given the lack of personal enhancement in that crew.

  296. Tom Gallagheer

    Perhaps there will be a common sense consensus among ‘independents’ that they are in fact of a unique status.

    I now recognize my ‘status’ and it is:

    II am a Retired Scientologist.

  297. IP, “Marildi ‘absolutes are not attainable’ is only true where there is a gradient scale and where infinity logic does apply. It does not apply to questions such as ‘Are we on the moon?’ ‘Is today Wednesday? or ‘Did you steal the cookies?'”

    I agree. And I thought the SOS reference was essentially saying the same thing – which was that two-valued logic should not be the ONLY way of thinking. It would be appropriate where there can be only two answers to a question, such as with the examples of yes or no questions you gave, or with statements that can be determined to be either true or false.

    So I guess I still don’t see where LRH was incorrect in his statement about Aristotle’s two-valued logic not being the only valid form of logic.

  298. Thank you Alanzo and Jane. My family was hurt by Scientology – not helped in any way, shape or form! I have friends that were financially ruined, sick and confused! I think you all need to look a little closer at LRH and his life.

    The sunlight disinfects – the darkness causes mold and mildew!

    THANK YOU Marty for allowing us to speak freely, think freely and express opinions! I love your posts!! Hugs to Monique – I love that woman! You too! 🙂

  299. Elizabeth, ha ha. How can God be known! Yes that is the question indeed.
    First off, speaking or writing on a blog is dicey talking about these things. The two books I mentioned may be a better instruction than me writing.

    But maybe a muse will inspire me:

    In a body, with a mind and feelings, our reference point of experience is in this tiny little space. Yet we are swimming in the Infinite beneath these limitations

    When the occilations of thought and the wavelengths of feelings cease their never ending fluxtuations, when the false I, the ego, is dissolved in Spirit, we experience an expanding consciousness that unifies our little self with that Absolute Undiffereniated Consciousness: God

    But is you have a hankering to know God. The two books mentioned by me is a better place to go. I am still a student.

    Get that info from a God realized master sage.

  300. Interested Party;
    “When you get a bunch of people together and tell them they are the elite, then you dress them in military uniform with a contract that symbolizes a total commitment to the cause of getting ethics in on the planet, I think you have a perfect recipe for a Stanford Prison Experiment. I don’t believe that was LRH’s intention but I do believe it was almost the inevitable outcome given the lack of personal enhancement in that crew.”
    This reminds me of the movie/book I Robot and the three laws of robotics

    A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
    A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
    A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

    They sound all nice and perfect and benevolent. Their intentions were good and their logic seemed sound. But their inevitable out come is revolution, destruction of the human race. The total stupidity of learning data with no judgement.

  301. Something that is knowable – LRH’s real Biography! It is different than what we were $old!

  302. One more thought:

    All I can say is, when we commune with the Supreme Being, the experience is so overwhelming as to make any other experience-ANY- experience pale in comparison. No words can can descibe. It is an overwhelming feeling of finally making it back home, after such a long sojourn. No worldy pleasure or kingly power compares to experiencing the Supreme Being face to face.

    The love will burst your heart into a million pieces in gratitude: forever more.

  303. Hi Sweetie, Thank you for this interesting info.

  304. +1

    That sums up my experience too. Even the point about Alanzo. 🙂

  305. Sorry Elizabeth, I tried answering your question above this.

  306. marildi,
    “Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again. He knows where They have trod earth’s fields, and where They still tread them, and why no one can behold Them as They tread.” H.P. Lovecraft

  307. Pip,
    Nice. Here is something from long time ago:


    There is a realm, where there is neither the solid, nor the fluid,
    neither heat, nor motion, neither this world, nor any other world,
    neither sun, nor moon. This I call neither arising, nor passing
    away, neither standing still nor being born, nor dying. There is
    neither foothold, nor development, nor any basis. This is the end of

    BUDDHA, THE WORD, 500 B.C.

  308. Hi Robert,

    You may already be aware of the following and I’m not sure how credible this guy is, but here’s a link to a first-hand account on ESMB of Hubbard stealing Study Tech from an English-teaching Scientology couple (Charles & Ava Berner) back in 1964.


  309. Alanzo,I understand what you are saying. And it would make perfect reason to me, except I have shared the reference here very recently, where Hubbard says to go through policy and toss out the ones that are not useful.

    It is David Miscavige that decides what policies are to be used and which ones are not. The Church is under his command and he calls all of the shots.

  310. Alonzo
    Given your previous statements, I can see a couple of things that you want to point out. He is flatly saying that there is no use looking at anything anyone else wrote/said about the subject of logic. This would of course discourage anyone from looking. A bad precedent.

    Also, that any useful knowledge on the subject would or has been suppressed by a few individuals for their own personal suppressive purposes.

    Both had the underlying purpose of promoting his own believed superiority. Although most of his work was superior and more understandable than the work of previous philosophers, or at least a further evolution of them, the parts that were not, coupled with ‘his flat out, this is the way it is’ manner of writing, tended to discount his better works.

    I have been involved in more tightly controlled cultures in the past in which rational thinking was more obviously suppressed. MUCH MORE TIGHTLY CONTROLLED. In this society, bits and pieces of valuable knowledge have always leaked out and especially in this day and age in much of the world, it can be found if you look. You have to look through a lot of manure to find a few emeralds, and they can often look just alike.

  311. Brian
    Thank you for the details concerning Karma. You put in plain English what is usually put forth in an un-understandable way. I get ’cause and effect’.

    I only wish it were true that we learned more in the school of life as we went along. It has been my experience that as more conflicting data is piled upon us, the burden gets heavier and darker. A downward spiral more closely matches my recollections.

    The average guy on the street is not very bright, myself included, and I recall a much better time. The bulk of my work, for now, is cleaning out the dirt. The better my vision gets, the more accurately I recognize ‘wise mens’ hits and misses.

    “Answers on a post card”!? Forgive my ignorance, I simply haven’t run across that term in internet usage. My background is mainly industrial control computers. Bit level programming. Boolean Algebra.

  313. There is no knowledge which is totally beyond our reach. There is no higher plane that we must always be subservient to. We are the highest plane. We are not only the players and umpires, we are the whole stadium. You and I.

  314. Ron once said, and I paraphrase, that our biggest problem was incompetent auditors.

    Now it seems it is by intent. Really able OTs would be to dangerous to have around.

  315. David M. is running an organization which is in the business of creating people who would become a threat to him. Of course he is going to dumb it down every which way he can. No mystery there.

  316. I get what you mean about A=A=A vs. A=B=C. To me it is just a matter of wording, I get the principal. There may be a slight nuance in the meaning if you look for it, but I’m not concerned.

    My example? I dated a girl for a while who had a mole on her cheek, large breasts, and a particular manner of speech. Sort of southern, over educated, uppity. Didn’t much like her, but it was fun for awhile. Turns out she was quite similar to an aunt of mine that I had a crush on in 1823. She wasn’t very nice to me. She spoke similarly to a particular race of oppressive humanoids that I was part of, and under, much longer ago. A part of me considered these two women the same as them.

    I used to think that old coffee grounds smelled exactly, exactly like skunks. I couldn’t tell the difference. That one blew about a year ago while I was looking at a lot of other things. I often encounter odors on the whole track. When something sticks, I’ll sometimes use the Self Analysis perceptions list, if it was an incident relating to bodies. Date and order of events and especially location are also helpful to getting things moving. Very early incidents require different techniques. Considerations on ‘charge’ and ‘mass’ are much different.

  317. Marildi said, in reference to Erzsebet. (Elizebeth)
    “…..and doesn’t end off with an F/N but keeps going earlier-similar.”

    I have found that this is some of the most important part of my work. I do not agree that full Dianetic erasure is the end of the line, but just a deeper form of release. Floating tone arm, original postulate, prior confusion, etc. is great, but doesn’t necessarily mean you found the earliest considerations, decisions that brought you to the situation in the first place.

    Example; I tracked a chain back to the postulate “Those lizard people are all scum”. Big win, body problem gone. But I looked again with relaxed curiosity, and found a competition with other guys while designing different types of bodies, animals. My designs were pretty good, especially the way alkaline metals could quickly combine and separate with other elements such as carbon and chlorine. to produce muscle motions, contractions. In the presence of various hydrogen compounds, the physical attractions can be quickly produced and released, controlled by small amounts of electricity. But these other guys kept screwing with me in ways I was not aware of. This led back to why I would screw with someone while they were creating MEST objects.

    Finding these incidents cleared all things related to the later incidents and much more. A resolution of all surrounding inconsistencies.
    ARCL, Mark

  318. Great, I got the cash. When can we start, LOL

  319. You heathen, Conan. 🙂

  320. Welcome. xxooxx 🙂

    First feedback of your show on 60 mins is all the rave.
    Very well done ! High Fives and Champagne Toast.

  322. Whoa, Lawrence. In my observation everyone has committed overts. The only one’s who “haven’t” are liars. But if one must judge another it is only fair to use a “theta balance scale” where the good things are balanced against the bad. Many years of much goodness and enhancement of others have emanated from this being. And before calling Karen out and asking who SHE can “bring to justice”, you might look at the facts about this lady. She has not been dispensing blame upon random individuals. She has been shining the spotlight of Truth on actual evil deeds which have been and are being done by particular individuals (e.g., DM) and particular groups of individuals (e.g., OSA & RTC).
    As for your question asking “Which one of those people in that church can YOU KDLC bring to justice”…look at her stats. That is what she is doing. She is a big-time whistle-blower who is communicating to the public about very-difficult-to-confront things in such a way that the truth gets out and people do confront these things. She also continues to audit others. And, you know what? Regarding any amends you might be insinuating that she needs to make in present time, I suggest that you might owe this beautiful being a bit of an apology. But that’s your call. Let your conscience be your guide.
    Very well done on handling the creep who was harassing you, but keep in mind that Karen has been exposing those who sent him to your door. You might want to tell her thank you. She’s your friend.

  323. Alan Walter uses the word “dichotomous” To describe Hubbard, I think that is a Scientolgist solution to not use psychiatry terms and still describe the suddenly changing moods who could result violent and right out cruel behavior/orders that alsoo were part of his character.

  324. I agree Mark

  325. Elizabeth Hamre

    🙂 money first! than you can have this vital information. [gold coins] with carrier pigeon it is safer route, cant be tracked!:)

  326. Elizabeth Hamre

    Since you and Brian talked about this topic I thought I post here for you my take. Let me know what you think.
    Each life we live now is what that life contains is exactly what we have created long way back. Over the eons we have created billions of experiences and we kept them all, unintentionally of course and since none of these experiences were confronted to the extent that they would have been rubbed out, let go of permanently, so now we have these billions of experiences piled up in the forms of masses of energies, which by now are jammed into each other and are completely stuck and feels solid to us and makes us believe that we are immobile.
    Out of the vast amount experiences of course, there are some which hold similar amount of energy mass and those dynamisms to which countless layers of considerations are added will stand out and have a profoundly powerful effect on us and continue influence our daily life in every possible way: in fact that is our life: just wrapped into different pictures and new labels are hang on the locations and different bodies.
    Some of these major happenings – experiences of the past – could have been anything: Good-noble-treasured events full of pleasure or really bad-evil-corrupt actions smeared with needs wants, governed by control.
    Regardless of those lifetimes how they were lived, we are still re-living them: we just roll along and re-experience – have similar kind of lives because so far, none of these events from the past have been properly confronted. Not once and we are solidly anchored to these grand exciting experiences! Over and over we re-experience these lives filled with heavy drama- importance but in different bodies of course, and only the circumstances are altered from lifetime to lifetime: Of course each life time are influenced by the locations and the civilizations which rule overs that location.
    Since we never met the challenges of the past and found the answers for all the WHY’s and HOW’s we put forth questioning the actions of self and the Universe and now we still look for those answers hopping that we might find them in our present or our next life.
    We all continue repeated these life’s cycles till we fulfill all activities were left behind incomplete, done wrong: so the promises we made we need to fulfill, or we are waiting for the promise others made to us to come through.
    how I see it…
    The magicians on the street corner or on the stage dramatize, act out, wanting something to vanish, or reappear again.
    The artist continues and wants to capture those mental images, illusion and make it into the solid form.
    The healer who wants to heal something and tries over and over most likely wants to make it go right when he has failed before and now still sitting motionless in that previous loss.
    The killer is still exaggerating his need to eliminate the source which he fears the most and he will continue his activity till finds the answers which will erase his fears.
    The warrior will be warrior regardless of the circumstances, holding an automatic gun or using the bow and arrow.
    Once a leader will be leader again in many different lives and teachers will teach again and again.
    Philosophers are doing the same as they have done in many earlier lives: sitting in coffee shops or are on the internet or universities, gathered in groups and tossing around ideas, looking for answers to the un-answered questions which have dribbled down over the eons, and these persons will be sitting in the same reality till they finally realise the mystery of the universe, get the answers to the unexplained; what they are looking for: the truth which is intangible, yet indeed factual when one finds it.
    All lifetimes are dramatizations of earlier lives we have had and in each of these lives we dramatize our accomplishments regardless whether that life was a failure or a great triumph.
    How long this charade will last and just how many times one will come back in a different body and repeat the failures or the triumphs of the past? That depends on when one finally, once and for all when the person finds the all the right answers and these answers will erase all to which one is stuck and solidly anchored down to. In other words: what one believes in: and those beliefs that hold one in an eternal prison. We need to find the answers and until we do we are saddled with our lot and that is our Karma and no one can get away from and change what is and live and have a different kind of life. No one has free will to choose on this matter.
    OH…. we have some choices: tea or coffee, shower or bath, black or white, cat or dog.. etc..etc.. hehehe… but we don’t have choices on matters which really could alter that lifetime.
    Have a lovely day .Elizabeth

  327. Interested Party

    In that SOS quote he isn’t saying infinity valued logic is an extra tool. He is saying it is a superior tool.

    I’ve been listening to some early 50s lectures recently. On one that was about the logics and axioms, and I apologize for not giving an exact reference, he does talk about Aristotle’s logic being incorrect. There is another lecture where he talks about the same thing but doesn’t credit Aristotle with it and that is The Road To Truth where he questions the idea that two apples plus two apples does not necessarily equal four apples. I don’t know where the mathematical concept of 2+2 = 4 comes from but I have not seen anything about it in reference to Aristotle anywhere except from LRH. So the end product that I have seen or heard other Scientologists espousing is that Aristotelian logic is wrong.

  328. christianscientology

    Hi Marildi

    This phenomenon you describe is covered by the datum “ARC precedes an ARC Break”.

    I have observed it frequently in the field of relationships. Often times when a person “falls in love” the object of their affection can do no wrong. When the relationship goes ‘pear-shaped’ their disdain for the “beloved” knows no bounds. Thank God the world does not start and end with A.R.C.


  329. christianscientology


    That is beautiful. This perfectly expresses the missing factor in Scientology. The personhood of God precedes everything and is the only solution to mans’ “heart of stone”.

    Thank you for your post, we can never hear too many times how God is reaching out to us in Jesus.

    Love and ARC

  330. christianscientology

    Karma only exists as long as there is ego. I am told the highest purest form of Yoga is Bhakti yoga. That is devotion to one’s guru. To be this devoted requires the surrendering of the ego at which point you have no negative karma. It has now been transferred to your guru. How similar to the Christian idea of “cast all your burdens on him for he cares for you”.


  331. christianscientology

    How true


  332. christianscientology

    Brian, does it also deal with not-knowing?


  333. christianscientology

    Hi Brian

    I agree that “God can be known” but with one proviso, only if he reveals Himself. To think otherwise is to attempt to usurp his sovereignty.


  334. christianscientology

    I love it! Long live ACIM, that is what I say.


  335. christianscientology

    Hi Marildi

    Whether Scientology is a fundamental religion might be debated but it says of itself it is “the religion of religions”.

    Incidentally I know you like to stick strictly to the written word, whether it be Scientology or otherwise, so I am sure you won’t mind me mentioning that the Bible says “no man cometh unto the father except through me”.

    If we define the way the truth and the life as UNCONDITIONAL LOVE and we postulate that Jesus was and is the embodiment of that love and that love has no mass, no motion, no wavelength no position in space or in time, and we define “the Father” as THETA then every Scientologist would have to agree that Jesus is the way to the Father, Simple!


  336. I got that LRH was only saying that in some instances infinity-valued logic is superior – and he is specific about which, i.e. the tone scale and issues of right or wrong. The excerpt I quoted might have come across differently if I had included the sentence that comes before the part of the paragraph I quoted. Here it is:

    “The tone scale does not represent the idea that everything above 2.0 is theta in pure form and everything below 2.0 is entheta in pure form, nor that in the organism everything above 2.0 is MEST well organized by theta, and that, sharply, everything below 2.0 is enMEST, or disorganized matter. [And then comes the part I quoted earlier:] In older ways of thinking, which permitted ONLY [my caps] two-valued logic, which is to say black and white or right and wrong with no in-between values, the tone scale and its usefulness would have been greatly decreased. In Dianetics, there is a new way of thinking about things which underlies a great deal of its technology. Instead of two-valued logic or three-valued logic we have infinity-valued logic…..” Etc.

    You also wrote: “I don’t know where the mathematical concept of 2+2 = 4 comes from but I have not seen anything about it in reference to Aristotle anywhere except from LRH.”

    Here’s a link to several pages from a book titled *Aristotle* that you might find relevant: http://books.google.com/books?id=v6pxshF5yrkC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=two+apples+aristotle&source=bl&ots=4nLlEZ3zkE&sig=NligkpHw69JHcZSdEPj1i9PwxZk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bSwvU5KwAsblyQG37oGYCQ&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=two%20apples%20aristotle&f=false

  337. Markee Marquis

    I’ll second that and also am elated to find this on your opening page today, cause this is what was on my mind for the last few days!:) Wanted to comment in such a manner but could not find a recent post of like content in order to do so. Having just completed 7 1/2 ACCs wherein the much misunderstood genius (but not a God in which he forewarned us many times to not look upon him in such a way) LRH makes many above brilliant statements of truth which can be utilized in so many constructive ways to free and evolve our culture. I wanted to share some of them, but having not taken the time to catalog them to refer to, I will currently pass on just ONE that I learned today:

    On the 9th American ACC “Communication the Solution to Entrapment” Lecture # 21 “Time”, end of track 12 and beginning of track 13 LRH states

    “If you just said you must approach this god reverently (uh… so forth and so on) you just restrained communication to such a degree that sooner or later you’re going to impose a lot of waiting time there. If you believed someone was there, ready to talk to you and then didn’t talk to you he must therefore be ignoring you. You’re expectancy of a communication is terrific, isn’t It? So you get a mass. And then in the absence of a direct communication from God why, you’re really in trouble! Well, now we’re really in trouble. Because he doesn’t think you’re important enough to talk to. And so, all churches sooner or later go into tremendous masses.

    Our idea for instance of the center for an HASI, uh, has to do with a lot of space, uh… very little in the way of very solid buildings. Enough to air condition it. It is about the, when you stand in the buildings the idea behind its structure is that you have lots of space and darned few walls, you get the idea?”

    Yeah, I get the idea! But I don’t think the CO$ does (LOL)!: D

    I also delighted in writing this direct quote from LRH in politically correct COS verbiage!:) I’d like to also add something I’ve been noticing for the last few years. A Christian church which is very famous nationally or maybe even internationally which is on TV, I believe called “Church of the Rock” has a very spacious and airy looking structure inside, with skylights above. It really puts the CO$ to shame with their very mesty Shrine Auditorium meetings. The Church of the Rock looked like the audience was much bigger and the airy atmosphere with the skylights shining light upon them gave a much more theta experience inciting a viewer to bite! The CO$ could really go learn a correct tech and PR point here.

    Thank you so much, Marty; many props and hats off to you for continued excellency in shedding light on another important point, re-steering the ship which crashed on the rocks after the captain kicked off to get it back on-source which is all he wanted from us: to be able to think for ourselves, to take responsibility and to take up the ball and run with it to continue his legacy — to set beings free.

  338. Interested Party

    I agree about the SOS piece. In the full context it doesn’t appear quite so arrogant. I’d have to study the Aristotle ref in far greater detail than I just did in five minutes. It does seem like it could be relevant.

  339. Thank you, Pip! That was exactly my point. In your last paragraph, you expressed the non-fundamentalist, non-literal viewpoint. The Scientology fundamentalist would not be able to even consider that Jesus, or Christ consciousness, could actually be the same as OT – and neither would the Christian fundamentalist .

    Love, marildi

  340. Markee Marquis

    Hey, Elizabeth, I’d LOVE to share a comment with you, as you invited on your comment above but I couldn’t figure out how to register on your blog, so I’ll paraphrase herein:

    “I’ll second that and also am elated to find this on your opening page today, cause this is what was on my mind for the last few days!:) Wanted to comment in such a manner but could not find a recent post of like content in order to do so. Having just completed 7 1/2 ACCs wherein the much misunderstood genius (but not a God in which he forewarned us many times to not look upon him in such a way) LRH makes many above brilliant statements of truth which can be utilized in so many constructive ways to free and evolve our culture. I wanted to share some of them, but having not taken the time to catalog them to refer to, I will currently pass on just ONE that I learned today:

    On the 9th American ACC “Communication the Solution to Entrapment” Lecture # 21 “Time”, end of track 12 and beginning of track 13 LRH states

    “If you just said you must approach this god reverently (uh… so forth and so on) you just restrained communication to such a degree that sooner or later you’re going to impose a lot of waiting time there. If you believed someone was there, ready to talk to you and then didn’t talk to you he must therefore be ignoring you. You’re expectancy of a communication is terrific, isn’t It? So you get a mass. And then in the absence of a direct communication from God why, you’re really in trouble! Well, now we’re really in trouble. Because he doesn’t think you’re important enough to talk to. And so, all churches sooner or later go into tremendous masses.

    Our idea for instance of the center for an HASI, uh, has to do with a lot of space, uh… very little in the way of very solid buildings. Enough to air condition it. It is about the, when you stand in the buildings the idea behind its structure is that you have lots of space and darned few walls, you get the idea?”

    Yeah, I get the idea! But I don’t think the CO$ does (LOL)!: D

    I also delighted in writing this direct quote from LRH in politically correct COS verbiage!:) I’d like to also add something I’ve been noticing for the last few years. A Christian church which is very famous nationally or maybe even internationally which is on TV, I believe called “Church of the Rock” has a very spacious and airy looking structure inside, with skylights above. It really puts the CO$ to shame with their very mesty Shrine Auditorium meetings. The Church of the Rock looked like the audience was much bigger and the airy atmosphere with the skylights shining light upon them gave a much more theta experience inciting a viewer to bite! The CO$ could really go learn a correct tech and PR point here.

    Thank you so much, Marty; many props and hats off to you for continued excellency in shedding light on another important point, re-steering the ship which crashed on the rocks after the captain kicked off to get it back on-source which is all he wanted from us: to be able to think for ourselves, to take responsibility and to take up the ball and run with it to continue his legacy — to set beings free.”

  341. Self discipline vs. what we really wanted from Scientology

    I spent the weekend with my grandson (7yrs.) and we had a little episode at bed time. I observed him and some things solidified for me that I had been bouncing around for a while.

    He was dramatizing but I just put his attention on his present time environ., in a fun way, and everything was fine in a few minutes. But it reminded me that children have all the unconscious reactive history as a grown up or even an old person. They just haven’t learned through social mores and pressures, to enforce discipline over their so called ‘bank’. One of the original purposes of death was to be able to start off with a clean slate every so often, or so you were told. But you also lose the practiced control over the reactive emotions that are restimulated as you grow up.

    Well, we learned how to pretty much key out the superficial reactive thoughts through rebirth, but it is all still there waiting to come out at any minute, and children have not learned to suppress most unsocial actions and emotions. It’s not really a matter of restimulation, it’s a matter of holding the volume down on behavior and emotion.

    Now, as children grow, they learn and are forced to put some discipline in on themselves in order to get along and avoid punishment in its various forms. Although this does ‘suppress’ many emotions and causes some problems pointed out by the psyches, it does have some therapeutic value. There is some ‘keeping the bank at bay’ involved. This discipline has actually greater value than the conflicts produced. It is a valuable and necessary skill.

    But it is a constant struggle. A never ending battle.

    Which brings us to why we were attracted to this science/religion. I didn’t want to learn to suppress and hold back my subconscious desires and emotions. I didn’t want to learn to push through my stops and force myself to work or act when I didn’t really feel like it. I wanted to ERASE my undesirable desires, to REMOVE the things that were stopping me from doing the things I wanted and knew I should do. Remove and erase, not suppress and force.

    Then I read DMSMH. It was the first and only system which promised to do what I really wanted. Oh sure, it was work and discipline at first, but it promised to get easier as it went along until no effort at all was needed. You need to make a decision, you look at the facts and decide. No confusion, no second thoughts unless additional data is received. Need to do the dishes or take that college course, you just do it, right then, no hesitation. This is what I call living life easy. It’s why I am here. It’s what I Really want.

    Oh, a few of us came in to learn to do magic, or because it was interesting to learn the secrets of the universe. But for most of us this is why we came in. This is why I am still here. This is why you must have wins to stay in. To have confidence that the struggle is lessening.

    You must get that confidence, somewhere along the way, or it becomes a dead end, a never ending battle, just as it has been with the thousands of other -ologies and –isms that you have worked with over your recent existence. They all failed, and there have been a lot of them. They all had some good stuff in them. Scientology gave the promise of eliminating the undesirable. Has that been realized by you? Partially?

    Only you can answer.

  342. Great. I’d be interested, Interested Party, if you find anything of interest. 🙂

    Seriously though, I’m here to exchange viewpoints and info, and I get that you are too.

  343. Two valued, infinity valued logic.
    Perhaps, again, I am being too simplistic or maybe I’m not getting the whole argument, but what i am seeing as missing here is the factor of coordinating and duplicating ones communication.

    4 apples. Are the apples being sold by the pound or by the each. Is it 4 per $2.00, or are they $1.00 a pound. Are people below 2.0 on the tone scale suppressive, or are they a little more entheta the lower they get. It depends on the conversation, on the agreements and parameters of the conversation. Are you talking about the number of beams it takes to hold up a 17 ton floor, or are you talking about the quality of beams produced by a particular factory.

    To convey logic to another person on a particular subject, make sure he understands and duplicates the parameters of your communication. Duplicate what the other individual is actually communicating. Do not evaluate and adjudicate another ones logic by switching from 2 value to infinity value.

    You don’t have to agree with every communication, but at least know what the actual communication is, rather than looking for pieces to agree or disagree with. The logic will follow. Every day I see one person talking about something being good or bad, and another talking about how good or how bad. They are on different pages, and most often don’t want to be on the same page. Pick one and make it known and duplicatable.

    Sounds logical to me.
    ARCL, Mark

  344. Erzsebet
    “Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.”
    And are enslaved by it.
    In a nutshell, the very basis of regressive auditing.

  345. I have met a few people in my life to whom work came easily. They needed to do this, they did it. Needed to do that, they did that, Simple, easy.

    If I could put out effort without counter effort, life would be a breeze. EVERYTHING would be within my reach. If I could remove the barriers rather than fight with them, the universe would be at my fingertips.

    That is why I became a Scientologist.

  346. Elizabeth Hamre

    I have not seen your above comment till now, interestingly you commented that I invalidate every thing.. please reread your own post. You are writing of a person who only exist in your reality.

  347. christianscientology

    Mark you wrote “there is no knowledge which it totally beyond our reach”. How can you be so sure? This may well be true if we are SELF CREATING but supposing we are not. If in truth we were created then what we can know would be at the discretion of our creator. I see nothing in Scientology that postulates that we created ourselves; in fact the eighth dynamic is left up to each of us to view it as we will.


  348. christianscientology

    Hi Mark

    I was hoping for a short and sweet answer to the meaning of nothing. When I type nothing into the computer this is what I got. http://www.buddhanet.net/bt_52.htm


  349. christianscientology

    Hi Conan

    Thanks for that – in “Scientonese” it’s called THETA!

    Love and ARC

  350. christianscientology

    Thanks Marildi dear,

    We tread a narrow path!


  351. Hi Pip,

    They say there is no feud like the feud between brothers. We who have “roots” in Scientology seem to be like brothers and sisters. LOL And some of us are more like kissing cousins. 🙂

    Love, marildi

  352. “…seem to be like brothers and sisters.”

    I meant to say “seem to FIGHT like brothers and sisters.” 😉

  353. christianscientology

    Yes please! But lets not get too serious about the “cousins” bit.


  354. Elizabeth Hamre

    elizabethhamre.wordpress.com here it is 🙂

  355. Pip
    “Mark you wrote “there is no knowledge which it totally beyond our reach”. How can you be so sure?”
    I did it again. I stated as fact something which is my viewpoint. Although the 8th Dyn. is at the other end of the scale, it is a personal thing. Have been reading your posts. Many ways to look at things. Very abstract.

  356. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip Hello! I had a thought about the Path… It do not LEAD to.. but we just fallow the crumbs we so carelessly let fall, not realizing that some day we will need to fallow them in order to understand why we left in the first place.. 🙂 the cranbs are

  357. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip.. Hello to you! I been thinking about the Path… I should have said that we just fallow the crumbs we have dropped so carelessly as we walked and that has been good since without these crumbs we could never find our way back to the very beginning. also these crumbs are the lessons we needed to learn from. 🙂

  358. christianscientology

    Mark I have you “book marked” as the man without a service facsimile. If the 8th dynamic is indeed the creator of everything he/she/it is both at the end and the beginning (I am the Alpha and Omega) not to mention all the points in between.


  359. Pip
    “Mark I have you “book marked” as the man without a service facsimile.”
    Can you even realize what an extreme compliment that is. I am most humbled.

    When I recognize an urge, a feeling, an intent to assign blame or cause by others of something undesirable, or see something that I get a first impression is wrong, I look at it with curiosity and say “Hmmmm, I wonder where that came from.

    That is not to say that I will not disagree with anything. Having the integrity of your own knowledge is important to me. But stating believed facts in opposition to others serves no upward purpose, In fact, it serves to prevent any attempted assistance given from being received.

    I will continue to disseminate (offer) my observations. Hopefully some of them are true for others as well. Perhaps a few of those will have a positive impact as other peoples knowledge has had for me.
    ARCL, Mark

  360. christianscientology

    Hi Elizabeth

    Thank you for that. It reminds me of the parable of the prodigal son. Although he was estranged from his father he knew the way home but then he knew it was his father he was going to.

    As you say we have left crumbs from where we have come, although in Scientology we call the crumbs CHARGE. Yes we can follow the crumbs or just realise it is for our Heavenly Father that we really crave.

    There is a lovely line in the Bible “As the deer pants for streams of water, so my soul pants for you, my God.” Psalm 42:1

    We left in the first place because we choose Independence over Interdependence, Individual over Indivisible, Separateness over Oneness, to be a Thetan over Theta, ALONE over ALL ONE, to be a THING rather than a NO-THING, to be UNDERSTANDING instead of LOVE, to live in THE STORY and ignore THE MYSTERY, to swap the Awareness of Awareness for Awareness.

    When going on a journey it is fine to rehab the postulate that caused you to take the first step, but that is in fact the 2nd postulate. The first postulate is why you TOOK THE FIRST STEP.

    Thanks for the analogy

    Lots of love

  361. christianscientology

    Dear Elizabeth

    I woke up this morning thinking of you. To be more precise thinking about what you had written in your post to me.

    The thought was what are these CRUMBS Elizabeth is talking about? Then I realised of course they are IDENTITIES.

    All identities rely on BEINGNESS for their survival so they must lead back to THE DECISION TO BE. This got me thinking about THE FACTORS – BEFORE THE BEGINNING THERE WAS A CAUSE. This cause must be something other than everything else, but must also include everything.

    I read an article once by a Bishop in the Russian Orthodox Church in which he said PERSONHOOD PRECEDES BEING. Is this the missing FACTOR could it be that the missing factor in Scientology which prevents us from “GOING HIGHER” has been starring us in the face all this time.

    I am reminded of the Zen Koan WHAT DID YOU LOOK LIKE BEFORE YOU HAD A FACE?

    Love and ARC

  362. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip dear… If there was nothing before the beginning than “We could not have left anything.. than enter into something which is the Universe.. Now if we would have left than there had to be something…yes? I hope you figure that one out. Think man! 🙂
    [The knowledge I have is not from reading but the product of the sessions… cognitions. Please keep this in mind.. ]
    There was no CAUSE at the beginning.. Cause is a concept which is only known to man, belong in human thinking. Cause is making something, allowing the idea to happen to take form.
    I was on OT 3 when in session I have found myself in this incredible infinite space and I had no location [yet it was not space as we know that concept here in Earth] there was no light or objects pictures or having thoughts and of course the AWARNES OF HAVING A BODY DID NOT EXIST , I was simply IS.. I had no clue where I was, what I was experiencing.. since thoughts were missing.. I could not name the condition… But what I felt was perfection totality.. yet I did not know I felt that.
    I was in this state could have been minutes or eons since time as a concept did not exist either, than suddenly a small pinhead of light appeared in a great distance and the ability of thinking slowly returned too and I was wondering what could that light mean since it was so tiny so insignificant unimportant and totally meaningless than realization have come: I was outside the Universe and the Universe itself was that tiny insignificant pinpoint of light.
    That time I had no choice but to return since there were tooooo many crumbs had to be confronted as-ised. Than about 20 years later I found myself again outside this universe [where the light is commanding ruling factor] which is created from energy glued together by concepts and this time I did have the choice to come back here or remain.. I still have come back since I knew the crumbs were still there on the path.
    But of course I had again a cognition: I have realised till one has any un-confronted experiences can’t live the Universe because having unconfronted conditions pulls the attention back to MEST U. these unconfronted issues and one can’t be totally free while still in that condition.
    But by now I have returned to my home but before this could have happen I had to realise where is this place which is empty of concepts –considerations, identities, beingness, and shapes –forms and what IS.
    The intangible Infinite can not be described. Love ya back. E.

  363. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip…..”All identities rely on BEINGNESS for their survival so they must lead back to THE DECISION TO BE. This got me thinking about THE FACTORS – BEFORE THE BEGINNING THERE WAS A CAUSE. This cause must be something other than everything else, but must also include everything.””
    Identities are beingness itself: I am this or that.. that is identifying with the matter… and when one identifies with any object-subject that is the indicator that that person is being stuck to, stuck in that energy mass and that energy mass is labeled “I am this or that” I call that having-ness.
    The person have that condition like chicken pox 🙂 Just think when the man say: I am a brick layer… hehehe .. you get the picture what that person is being stuck to or I am the Pope.. these are valances.
    Cause understanding the cause what it means has entered into consciousness reality being aware of very late.. just think before that had to be action… but even that concept was not defined till much much later.
    Just think how the cave people communicated, words were not in use, but sounds and even those sounds were placed on the TOP OF INTENTION! Lets go further, when intention is needed: When one wants to accomplish something.
    Yes Cause could include, I emphasise “ could include everything” but if one was not aware of such a reality was that person really at cause?
    If one is knowingly at cause than that person is already in the MEST Universe..
    I have sorted out by now what is MEST and what is not the intangible Infinite means.. Infinite do not have the need to be cause.. have power, be aware, do or have..
    Infinite is outside of the Universe and that is not a location but without being the effect of the MEST U.

  364. christianscientology

    Dear Elizabeth
    You may find it useful to read through the Factors – you can find them here.


  365. christianscientology

    Thank you Elizabeth


  366. christianscientology

    “Can you even realize what an extreme compliment that is. I am most humbled.”

    Yes Mark I can. I didn’t say that flippantly. For me the hallmark of wisdom is humility.

    There is a lovely line from the Course in Miracles and it comes from Lesson 60, rehabbing Lesson 46. The particular line is THE BLAMELESS CANNOT BLAME. In fact it was that phrase that got me into the Course. You can read it in full here http://acim.org/Lessons/lesson.html?lesson=60

    “Stating believed facts in opposition to others serves no upward purpose”.
    So true, in 1 Corinthians 13: the famous passage on love says in verse 7 “love believes all things” note it does not say “love believes anything” that would just be gullibility . As I read that verse love hears what is being said and receives it and considers it and aligns it with known data, dare I say it – it evaluates it with other data of comparable magnitude.

    Yes Mark that is all you can do, stay in your integrity and say it as it appears to you.

    Lots of love and ARC

  367. Pip: “As I read that verse love hears what is being said and receives it and considers it and aligns it with known data, dare I say it – it evaluates it with other data of comparable magnitude.”

    Nicely said!

    And LOL on this part: “…dare I say it – it evaluates it with other data of comparable magnitude.” 😉

    Love, marildi

  368. Elizabeth Hamre

    That was his reality… and in my reality.. experience light was first creation and that just happened… was not created by somebody’s intention. like throwing the big switch.. 🙂 I don’t care no matter how important that person was or how many has agreed to that reality. My beliefs are changed only by cognitions.

  369. christianscientology

    We must speak again soon Marildi


  370. christianscientology

    Dear Elizabeth

    Interesting you see that “light was first creation”. The bible opens with “and God said ‘let there be light’” or as a pastor friend of mine says “God said ‘light is” and light was.

    Cognitions are all very well but they must be grounded in TRUTH, if it is only YOUR TRUTH of course, there will be no opposition so you decide when your needle is floating. That may be something for you to think about.


  371. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip… After I have come back from ST Hill I felt lonely..[ I was there for 9 months!] since suddenly I had disconnected from my friends and was penniless, without work and I felt let down disappointed because I too believed that when one do all the OT levels than one can do anything : the Magic Wand will be in one’s possession and I can wave it and bingo my wish will materialize!
    Hell No…. I was depressed and aimless, my dream to be OT 7 which I worked for was achieved but the emptiness was heavy something I felt was not right.
    Not that I did not have immense gains while doing the courses and being audited and solo audit.. Oh I had those, but I felt there had to be more because I still seen, understood the meaning of those words what was written on the Top of The Chart and that was real to me and beckoned.
    So I was wallowing in depression.. In ARC-b’s galore, had a brilliant ides to do what I have learned to do.
    I zipped out the cans and the meter and I started to handle the ARC=B’s I was sitting in. the problems I was having.
    It has begun: the daily sessions handled my disappointments any other issues which has come up. I was winning again.. I had hope again, gotten a job waitressing in Vancouver Hotel than I got one more job and I was flying.
    To have a tool in ones and realising that tool had the quality of the Magic Wand!!!!
    Soon I handled- erased all my troubles, that was fantastic and on the top of knowing I have taken responsibility for my condition..
    But soon I run out of ARC-B’s and had no problems I had to look for other sources to have session on.
    I pulled out the book of Self Analysis which I have done before and here I was again re doing every question.. on 4 flows earlier similar in a new unit of time!! WOW.. I had incredible powerful sessions and the continual cognitions rearranged my universe daily!
    But after I finished that I looked over the Tech Dic. In order to see if there is something, some words concepts I can have session on…
    You never guess what was my next Item on my list to have session on after going through auditing those concepts of the Dictionary.. “THE AXIOMS”.. one by one, then next the Factors were confronted again one by one on 4 flows going earlier similar on everything and I used every button in the rudiments available.
    Yes Pip.. I know the Factors, the cognitions born out of the confrontation of those concepts were enlightening.
    Pip… and I know my ability how to confront and I have extraordinary abilities gained which are not comprehendible by many. And Yes I have achieved my dream and have in my possession that Magic Wand!
    My sins-my past was not taken away by other person but I have taken responsibility for my own mass. Thanks for the suggestion… which in fact was meant to help by evaluating first that assuming that I need help and it is you who can give direction. But you have good intentions and that means a lot.
    Keep it in mind that indicates that you believe you are better off, know more than others do.. that is assumption.. we always fall into that deep self-dug hole.. 
    PS: do you think anyone beside me had session on the Axioms and on the Factors in order to find out where those concepts originated from? Has anyone attempted such? Talking debating the issue will not lead to the origin.. debating is simply assessing doing guessing work what those concepts possibly could mean and having a new agreement established.. but the truth was not fund.

  372. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip screw the bible and you wrap your invalidation is sugar and you think than that is OK. TO DO.. Just because there is on agreement on any topic that do not means that is the truth! And no wonder you have run back in the safety of no responsibility into the implanted idea of god since you never had reality what cognitions are.. if one do not have reality what are cognitions and how they work than the levels you have attained were faked. I don’t like your invalidations acting under the cover of the love blanket AND WHAT GOD SAID AND JESUS SAID.. OBVIOUSLY YOU DONT HAVE A SPEAK OF REALITY OUTSIDE OF THIS.. and NO MORE COMMUNICATION FROM ME AND I HOPE YOU CAN TAKE A HINT. I DONT LIKE FAKES. AMEN.

  373. Okay, I’ll email you first chance.

    Love, m.

  374. Elizabeth Hamre

    PIP.. the basic basics are the truth… and the reason you do not know that simply because you never had one.
    I have realised you cant confront.. you never confronted your O/W’s in session since they were still hanging over your head you went and entrusted the responsibility for other to take care of them..
    If you would have confronted your own heavy shit you would not needed Jesus shoulder to hold that weight simply because you would not needed Jesus for that.
    you want to teach? you are spreading the good word? acting the authority who knows it all because you are inside the god implant?
    Every person on this planet was killed, suffered being killed tortured because of that good god and that assumed power he had that forced illusion which were held over the head of millions scared the shit out of those people.
    Every person has on engram on this planet and very few dare to stand up to those who spread those words because the fears are in re-stimulation from the past.
    But I have confronted that implant.. that imaginary god who holds all the power well.. not much there into which I am not dwelling into.. You would not get it any way. The implant you are sitting in is too solid wont allow you to see anything else.
    Am I evaluating-invalidating… yes very much so. but I am not doing that covertly as you do.
    There is no hell or heaven, or god…
    Your mistake was that you put down the power the reality what cognitions are.

  375. Jean Kowalski

    Question for christianscientology—– Are you familiar with “A Course in Miracles?”. In a way they explain Christianity with a tinge of Scientology.
    If not there is so much to look at,

  376. Scientology is a mind control cult. Of course, they are great courses that help you in life, I am not going to deny or say that LRH’s tech is wrong. But the “Ethics” department? it’s like the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem Witch Trials. Insane. And what about the mind control and brain washing? the sheeps should stop speaking to that “Divergent” the individual that thinks for itself and wants to liberate them from the ignorance of the cult. My wish is that the Sea Org members wake up, and just walk away!!! walk away!!! this is not “Total Freedom”, this is “Total Slavery”. Sea Org member: think for yourself. Nobody can steal you freewill!!! FREEDOM NOW!

  377. christianscientology

    Hi Elizabeth

    I did not realise you had been at St Hill, what year was that? I was there in the late ‘60’s’.

    Thank you for sharing your story with me.


  378. christianscientology

    Hi Elizabeth

    When I, in my 20’s sold vacuum cleaners door to door; the boss man said “don’t be put off by a housewife who resists the idea of buying on the door, because the more she resists the better the sale when it happens.


  379. christianscientology

    Yes please,


  380. christianscientology

    Dear Elizabeth

    I am glad you have confronted “that imaginary god” when we have finished confronting imaginary gods we are ready to meet the One True God. If you are interested please read my post to Oracle.


  381. christianscientology

    Wow! Jean that is the sort of question I like. I most certainly am and have been a student of the Course for the past 15 years. Yes many people find it compatible with Buddhism and certainly I find no conflict between Scientology and ACIM.

    Several people who post on this blog are Course students.

    Love and ARC

  382. Elizabeth Hamre

    not every one has the mentality of a sheep but that is your belief.

  383. That’s awesome Pip. I find it very in-depth but anyone can grasp the point and importance of forgiveness. I find it very helpful in graduating from Scientology with an awareness where they went wrong. I still have a lot to grasp but wanted to put it out there.

  384. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip… I was there in 76.
    After I have finished the OT levels I had 3 intensive of Integrity Rundown which was not mandatory than but I loved rooting for O/W’s and I bought those intensives. Had huge wins.
    I was packing up ready to come home when 2 guy from ST Hills their top recruiters for SO showed up at my house. They have chewed at me for well over on hour and let me tell you these two were well trained and had on answer for every objection I have brought up same as you have here.
    They walked away same as they have come: empty handed.
    In 82 I walked out of Flag because I did not like the conditions, not because I was declared suppressive.. One month after two guys again from SO. come and wanted to convince me to go back…2 hours later these to left, their stats did not go up… more likely they had to live on dry bread for a week.
    I have known about god before I found the field auditor and went to Mission. You see, one of my husband did everything in his power to sign me into gods group. His devotion did not convince me and he worked on me in vain.
    You believe that you have the power which in your words gods power to pull me in? you are setting your-self up for failure.
    Its like these: you have known about god before you went into scientology yet you have not joined into given up your personality, your free will, than you went into scientology and embraced it in full but you have had some huge MUs on the way and because not understanding something you have dropped out and that is indicator since you have not continued with solo auditing or any other courses-activities..
    After your loss: not attaining your dream you went back to the old reliable god bit and that was and is your second choice.
    If you would have attained what you have seen –believed in when you were in the Church first few years taking courses and being audited than you would never walk back and rekindled the old.
    I have not been disappointed, I have attained reached my goals, and my dreams become reality so I don’t have to walk back into the old trap. To me going back was not on option since I have truly believed in the tech.

  385. christianscientology

    Hi Elizabeth

    Well fancy that our paths nearly crossed but by ’76 I had been well and truly thrown out of St Hill, and when I say thrown out I mean literally that; actually carried off the premises. I must be the only ‘Scino’ who has spent 40 years trying to get into the CofS. That is my group and whether Scientologists are part of the Church, part of the Freezone or Independent it makes no difference to me, I love them all, and that includes you Elizabeth. I love Scientologists and I understand Christians. That does not necessarily make me a Scientologist or a Christian although I put my hands up to being both.

    I know you think that I am into God but I am not, as I wrote to Betsy if someone said to me “does God exist” I would have to say NO! for me God IS existence. Now if you tell me EXISTENCE does not EXIST then we have got a problem, but I don’t think you are saying that. So you see we are in agreement. Once we have established that GOD IS EXISTENCE and that EXISTENCE EXISTS we have a solid footing from which to go forward. Are you OK with that?

    Love and ARC

  386. christianscientology

    Thanks for your reply Jean.

    In fact it was forgiveness that freed me from Scientology and truly allowed me to “go higher”.

    After being expelled from the CofS I had an encounter with God and supposed I had become a Christian. I soon became aware that Christians were endeavouring to mould me into one of them and encourage me to RENOUNCE Scientology as evil and of the devil. I struggled for many years trying to comply with various Christian groups’ wishes but Scientology was always the stumbling block. At the point of desperation I met a lady from a Christian group called The Community of Celebration and when I explained that I couldn’t renounce Scientology she said “of course you can’t it is part of you”. It was like this great weight fell from me, as I drove home it suddenly struck me “I LOVE SCIENTOLOGISTS” it was then I could take on board that they had hurt me. Immediately I knew the way forward, I NEEDED TO FORGIVE THEM, from that moment I was free. Free to be both a Christian and a Scientologist. Not long after that I met Terry Knight who had been a Scientologist but had gone independent and we became firm friends, and then he found ACIM and introduced me. The line that got me hooked was THE BLAMELESS CANNOT BLAME” Lesson 60 – 46.

    I am no longer a Christian and a Scientologist, I am now a ChristianScientologist.

    Love and understanding

  387. Elizabeth Hamre

    C….” .Scientology is a mind control cult”.. please look into what control means and look around you how everything is controlled..EVERYHTING!! of course this is my reality…

    IMPLANT STATION: where we are programed at first and it is brainwashing.
    The Source is Mother, in this life ones source is Mother, She has given life, nurtured the body from the first day on it was conceived.
    One receives the genes plus every though she ever head and what she have heard from communication with others while One is inside her body in that ”cradle” which is her womb and that is our mold we have come out of and in that cradle one’s invisible – intangible education have started: where the basic personality is imprinted stamped established into us the Spiritual Beings.
    After given birth, she is the one who starts the “Offspring’s” education in new unit of time.
    Her knowledge, her reality all her believes becomes child’s: and that is: One- the Self is a body which have just come out of hers, therefore that One is that body and we believe it is true because she believes in that too!
    If her believes, teaching do not include embrace spiritual beliefs that we are souls that we are on entity, and we live for ever, we never die than the child believes the same that we are only a body and nothing more than that meat body.
    She is the one who educates the Baby: that body has to be nurtured, that it is fragile, it has needs in order to survive: right temperature, correct nutrient etc… and what that fragile body can or cannot do…all that is established by her believes will be our guidelines too in our life.
    The Mother is the One, who teaches how to hear with the ears, how to concentrate on the sound on the words, how use and talk with words and it was she made one understand what is solid object= their meanings and how and what effects they have on the body, how the body react if there is a contact established between those two solid object.
    It was She the Mother who thought us that the body is solid it has weight, because she felt that weight while we were “inside her” and her feelings become ours!!!
    She teaches: How to walk, how to talk, form the words, she explains what is good what is bad, she is the first one who points out the ‘’value’’ of things around us: what to have or not to have: where are the dangers: with that she Implants FEAR Into the being: Because by teaching values and having values she also teaches what it is like if we lose those valuables: with that She implanted Fear.
    She teaches: What is acceptable by others, how to belong to etc., where and why we should belong? She is the one who pours the information into ones universe and teaches Offspring, the child, how to become the player in the game.

    How to become a Human Being how to think like a Human, how to behave like a Human and of course Humans can’t levitate and can’t walk through walls: she can’t so you can’t either!
    Father too moves in, with rules, regulations, the rights, the laws what to obey in order to remain with the group and not to become different in any way: In other word how to become a Solid Citizen.
    The rest of post can be read in my blog… of course only if interested..!

  388. Elizabeth Hamre

    PIP… no, I am not OK with that… and it is you who have problem and not I.. the word god is not existence not in my reality.. never will be.. and never was… We are just from different part of the Universe, where I come from that belief did not existed. Why cant you be happy with your own belief and let it end there?

  389. Elizabeth Hamre

    PIP……..Not OK with me, I will not agree to that and I will not go into agreement with you and I won’t compromise my reality.
    Every religious- holy order teaches the same as you believe in and want me to swallow the same crap… Oh it sounds nice.. so lovely… so very innocent : NO THANK YOU!
    Those who join into that suppressed group of persons is doing the same:every breath they take in is god… food is good, air is good, they think god, drink god piss out god and shit god..life for them is god..
    Pip.. we are not on the same page not even in the same universe and I did not dig for forty years in order to be free from beliefs and group agreements than head back to the same and say that I finally have reached my goal and my dream is realised!
    Hell is better than what you offering and I have audited that concept it has taken me 3 days to get out! it was the most difficult session I have had out of tens of thousands!
    Not OK to push implants and that is what you doing.. that is in itself an Overt and a suppressive act.. I do hope you finally get my reality that I will not go into agreement with your belief.

  390. Jean Kowalski

    Thanks for your input Pip! I understand what you are saying. Seems you found what works for you. The truth will set you free. Christianity has its benefits but doesn’t resonate with me. Thus I can’t attend any of the Christian Churches and feel inspired. I think its the teaching we are separate from God that is false. This separation leads to further separation which divides the people, and the ultimate in separation is disconnection. I’m better and too good to associate with you way of thinking.
    Hey, us SP’s have to stick together and form a unity.
    I like your cog on the blameless cannot blame. so true.

  391. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip… The SPIRIT HAS ADVENTURES NATURE… the emotional TONESCALE alone proofs that also existence of the ARC TRIANGL E, another one is from the level of Not Know to the level of KNOW… from Death since Death that is a postulated existence to the highest and Being Born also these conditions are postulated and all these emotions, sensations are the proof that the SPIRITUAL BEING LOVES ADVENTURE and continually is creating on some of these levels on these Scales..
    Love.. total love can be a place where one enjoy to be for a moment or two than the Spirit want to move on and continue with the adventure in order to enjoy the variety of sensations emotions etc: THE GAME.
    I have seen places where they all felt the same, dressed alike, talked on the same tone of voice and we all looked like and it was paradise for a moment than become boring Hell. Love has it place but it is not on answer.
    As the society cannot survive on the level of hate, nor can survive on total love the ‘’game conditions do not exist’’, not there when everyone feels the same way and believes in the same.

  392. Awesome post, Elizabeth. You’ve made it clear that just being human, in a body, means we’ve been indoctrinated with BELIEFS. The most basic ones would be those of whatever culture and subculture we live in. I can see why you’ve concluded that all these beliefs, not just the ones of a particular religion or whatnot, need to be as-ised in order to achieve total spiritual freedom, if that is one’s personal goal.

  393. christianscientology

    I got that Elizabeth! All I am trying to do is to get your agreement that EXISTENCE EXISTS. Put another way Elizabeth DO YOU EXIST? that I would have thought requires a YES/NO type answer, unless of course you are a figment of my imagination. If that is so only I can answer the question.


  394. christianscientology

    Well it seems at last we are getting somewhere. In your last post to me you said that we were not even from the same universe, but now you admit we are from the same universe just different parts.

    I am not suggesting you have a problem and let’s forget about whether God is existence or not, and concentrate on seeing if we can agree that EXISTENCE EXISTS. Not that I am unhappy with my belief it is that you are not happy with my belief that makes me unhappy.

    Let’s both be happy and then maybe we could talk on Skype.


  395. Elizabeth Hamre

    Marildi… I have found it very interesting that different bodies have different set of belief.

  396. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip.. now why would I be unhappy with your beliefs? I really don’t care what you believe in.. you can be what ever you want to be.

  397. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip.. we don’t have to, we don’t need to agree on any subject. Why is it necessary to agree, that is beyond me. The way I look at blogging is like in the communication course’s Bullbating which was fun.

  398. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip.. there are millions who believe in god and millions who believe in Buddhism and millions who believe in who knows what… I have no desire or wish or need to change how others are thinking, if I would want to change others think into what I believe in that I would be believing that my reality is better, more valuable and important… No, My reality is none of those but just different and nothing more .

  399. Elizabeth Hamre

    PS Marildi… what I should have added is that when we drop the human body the restimulation to theses considerations what we have here live by disappears too and when we pick up another human body or different one the restimulation comes with that. it seems we by into a package deal.
    The learned stuff what we pick in each different lifetimes do vanishes altogether.. I know this because before this life I lived in England and I spoke the queens English so I had sessions on this because I wanted to bring back that learned language but I could not.
    Before that I lived in Russia and China before that and I could not rekindle these languages I could not recall them.
    Believe me I had many sessions eliminating the counter postulates but that did not help.
    While one is without the body one than operates as usual as a spirit do.. which is normal to do with full 360degree perception, and can see holographic images and simply knows.. but don’t have reality on concepts or ”thinks” but experiences without beliefs attached.

  400. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip here I is my reality on AGREEMENT.. The Bank has to survive at any cost… and co-agreement insures that it stays intact. More agreement there is on any given subject that agreement insures that consideration, that belief to stay remain intact period.. to remain solidly in bedded and affective and that holds the spirit imprisoned.
    No wonder those who are different in any way are attacked-labeled and segregated by the group from the group and when that is achieved by the group than that group has the belief of course which is false belief that they have won…but their Victory is the Solidity: the boxed in condition.
    Because of the fear being a cast-out from the group only few who dares to go against those group agreements and the one’s who do dare to believe in different reality have that different reality well… they are the one who are fortunate winners….

  401. Marty, I posted the wrong link above! If you can, please delete it. This is the one I meant to post

  402. christianscientology

    Hi Elizabeth

    All love that is knowable in this universe is conditional love, and as you say is involved in survival. Unconditional love is timeless so as such is not involved with survival. Unconditional love is ETERNAL.


  403. christianscientology

    Hi Jean

    I completely understand where you are coming from. Christianity is a religion, and all religion starts from the viewpoint that man is separate from God.

    This is the basic paradox. The truth is it is impossible for God and man to be separated because there is nowhere where God is not. However man CAN THINK he is separate from God at which time he is, but only in his thinking which is an APPARANCY, not an ACTUALITY. This is the essence of the teachings of Jesus, that man and God ARE ONE. We find the same concept in Scientology if you look deeply into what LRH is saying. The only difference between THETA and a THETAN is that a thetan has postulated space and time and then thought himself into M.E.S.T.

    In doing so a thetan forgets, in fact, that they are one with theta, and believes they are separate from theta. But this is only a perception on account of their postulate, because as the definition points out “A thetan can postulate and perceive”. So in truth THERE IS NO DISCONNECTION.

    I agree us SP’s (SPECIAL PEOPLE) have to stick together and recognise our unity, a unity that extends to everybody.

    Yes, THE BLAMELESS CANNOT BLAME is a ‘cracker’.


  404. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip… unconditional love do not exist.. since it can not be expressed.. can not be felt, can not bee seen, can not be given or taken, or can not be made.. exist only as a belief.. now if it is a belief than it is energy than it is part of the Universe that it is a thought, a consideration a make believe. You say unconditional love is timeless, just IS but if it IS than it is there as a consideration.. I do know what you are saying.. but that idea is not love.. love is a action a doingness..

  405. E., I totally see what you mean about how we are “implanted” with human beliefs – every culture on the planet. And, as I was saying before, each culture and subculture has its own additional beliefs – which are considered to be truths by the people in them.

    With regard to what happens when we drop the body, there’s’s a video talk by a psychic – or what we would call an OT – which is posted below. The main subject is ghosts, but also included is her ideas about different lifetimes – which seem to be very much like yours.

  406. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip….unconditional love is just a belief same as any other belief or agreements on any matter. the one who uses those words has their own reality on that alone. Love it self as a sensation, can be experienced because it is a response, a stimulation.

  407. Elizabeth, below is a summary (which I copied from the “About” section just below the video):

    “From a nonphysical perspective, which is eternal united consciousness, source (what we are) projects forth thought. When that thought is focused on with enough intent, and thus has enough energy flowing to it, it becomes thought form. When thought form is focused on with enough intent, it becomes physical form.

    “You are not your body. Separate of your body, you have a concept of you, a concept that you keep adding and adding to throughout your life. When this concept of you is imbued with enough energy, it can materialize and take on physical attributes. Many cultures call this materialized thought that is not yet a physical being, but that takes on physical attributes a ‘tulpa’. When someone dies, their ‘concept self’ sometimes has enough energy running through it that it can actually become a tulpa (that is it can take on shape and sometimes still manipulate the physical dimension which is what we see in the case of hauntings and full blown poltergeists). Often it only has enough energy to sort of surge into the physical dimension. Which is why ghosts are often seen in a kind of a loop. Meaning they can feed one projection into the physical over and over such as walking down a specific hallway or appearing in one specific window or crying in one room of a house.

    “They are not malicious, it is just that when they are looking to interact, they will gravitate towards energy sources such as electric currents, cell phone currents, crystals or people who can perceive them so as to be able to interact with the physical dimension and finish the business they are hell bent on finishing or express the message they are hell bent on expressing.

    “Often our concept selves are particularly attached to a person or place. This attachment and identification is what we use to preserve our concept (our eternal selves are not concerned with preservation because we are eternal but our identities are temporary, so they are concerned with survival). Identifying with things is part of what keeps our identity intact and for our identity (the thought of us that exists separate of the physical us) this identification continues after death. This is why ghosts often attach themselves to one place or person or thing of personal importance. Such as a person’s favorite spot, the spot where they died or a child’s favorite toy. And that person place or thing that they’ve attached themselves to, is often the person place or thing that these surges into physical existence are carried out upon. This is when we say that a place, person or object is haunted.

    “When we die, we instantly withdraw our consciousness not only from our physical form but also from the thought of our identity (tulpa). But every thought that has ever been thought still exists and thoughts…think. You in this physical body are essentially a thought that thinks and so, even though you withdraw from your own tulpa, it can continue to project forth thoughts and actions for a time. This is especially true when the person who died, died with an immense desire to preserve their own identity such as during a murder or when we have a sense of needing to be here for someone who we are leaving behind. This imbues the thought form with enough energy that even though it is no longer being fed by a stream of source consciousness, it can still ‘exist and interact with the physical dimension’.

    “It is important to realize that any time you resist a ghost, you feed its energy. This is why it is so important to do house clearings and communicate with tulpas from a very strong very high vibrational set point. Or to elicit someone who can do this for us. If you feel a lot of fear, interacting with the tulpa will not be successful. You’re more likely to fuel its already bothersome interactions rather than help to dissipate it.”

    Ask Teal Website – http://www.askteal.com

  408. christianscientology

    Hi Elizabeth

    Ignoring the possibility of “going more solid” I do agree with you that agreements have the tendency of making one MORE SOLID, however TRUTH works in the opposite way. KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE and maybe that IS the truth. AGREEMENT ENSURES SOLIDITY.


  409. christianscientology

    Hi Elizabeth

    I found your post most interesting. Of course your statement “unconditional love does not exist” is absolutely true. And the reason it does not EXIST is because it IS EXISTENCE.

    This is the whole point of the INCARNATION, you see when you and I entered this universe we entered in a state of SEPARTION. We entered as THETANS believing we were separate from THETA, but when Christ entered this universe he came as THETA KNOWINGLY EXPRESSING AS A THETAN; “The Word made flesh” theta expressing as a thetan through a body. Fully God (THETA) expressed as a SOUL (THETAN) clothed in a body.

    Yes love as we experience it is an action, a ‘doingness’, but anyone who has experienced this TRANSENDENTAL LOVE can witness not as a doingness but more as a beingness. You become it, it envelops you. It is not an idea it is an experience.


  410. christianscientology

    Dear Elizabeth

    By the laws of A.R.C. it is impossible to have communication without Reality, and Reality is agreement.

    I love the idea that ‘blogging’ is similar to “bullbaiting” but it is as well to remember in bullbaiting there is a coach and a student, and the purpose is for the coach to get the student to a place where they are winning, and the session should not deteriorate to just “mucking about”.

    p.s. We might of replied to the wrong post so if it doesn’t make sense it should be on this one.

  411. christianscientology

    Dear Elizabeth

    I opened this post first thing this morning and during my morning walk with my wife it suddenly hit me, you are my nemesis and I love you. Nemesis – An opponent that cannot be beaten or overcome.

    In fact unconditional love is the only thing that is not a belief or an agreement. Scientology is both a belief and an agreement, but unconditional love is something quite different. I will try and explain.

    L.R.H. is the source of the organisation we call the Church of Scientology and if you compare Scientology to a river, the river has a source let’s call that a stream, but in the same way the stream has a source, let’s say it is a spring, but even the spring does not cause itself. Something is always preceding the source of something causing it to occur.

    If you track this line of thinking back you inevitably get to a source that is its own cause that is UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. So nothing precedes it and it is the source of everything. It is not existing because it is that which brings about existence. It does not exist in SPACE or TIME because it precedes space and time. In Scientology it is given the name THETA, theta and unconditional love (agape love) are one and the same thing. They are not a response to anything, and exist independently of stimulation, and are equally unaffected by any stimulation. In fact when one has exhausted the whole of human language describing what unconditional love IS NOT what is left is what it is. It is THE WORD out of which all words proceed. In Hinduism and Buddhism they speak of the primordial sound OM.

    I don’t expect you to duplicate what I have written because it is impossible to duplicate it. You can only experience it and when you do you will know why all words fail to encapsulate it.

    Lots of love

  412. Elizabeth Hamre

    PIP…whatever….. I am not into spitting air.

  413. Elizabeth Hamre

    I am just happy that your reality is yours and not mine.

  414. Elizabeth Hamre

    Now dear Pip If you think of me as your Nemesis ..yet you don think I cant duplicate or understand.. hehehe. to bad you never have taken the time out and read some of my posts. Your loss..

  415. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip… yes agreements ensures solidity of that agreed upon concept… the problem is that if there are toooooo many agreements than those agreements become the TRUTH for those who agree to to that idea and that idea-concept will become A VALANCE for the originator of that agreed upon shit. Not necesearrly a winning valance but can become a losing valance for some .Agreement here has power. just look at the voting system. Please don’t hit me with slogans.. You must have some thoughts of your own…I am not really interested in who said what. If I want to talk with those people than I will open a communication line with them.

  416. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip… losing and winning these are just concepts describing conditions of the game…. Since I am not in a game condition I cant win or lose.. IS as IS IN PRESENT TIME AS IS “”NOW”” don’t have past or future ” NOW”” don’t contain such, by being in present at all time I cant lose or win… By the way those concepts too were confronted in session by me.. and all related items. To confront ones wins or loses takes many sessions hundreds of them. Winning or losing is just on idea.. silly notion.. how could one lose something which one never had or always have..? By the way we are not Nemesis.. I don’t have one..

  417. christianscientology

    Me neither but me false teeth don’t help!


  418. christianscientology

    I read all your posts

  419. christianscientology

    I thought you said previously that you saw blogging as a game. Surely just being alive is being involved in a game.


  420. christianscientology

    “Know the truth and the truth will set you free”. Jesus said that, and yes if you want to talk to him I am quite sure he will respond to your communication, it is called prayer.


  421. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pippin dear I am great communicator.. I love telepathy it is fast… clean no misunderstanding or miss duplicating that invisible line of comm. guess what I don’t need to pray in order to have a communication.. praying is a via..

  422. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pippin I have said many things and ALL THAT IS HOT AIR…WATER UNDER THE BRIDGE.. WAS … HAS BEEN.. GONE… NO LONGER APLY… I COULD NOT CARE LESS… HAS LAST ITS MEANING…HAS NO IMPORTANCE, HAS NO VALUE… did I leave out anything? I don’t want any one holding into any idea what I said.. that would not be cool…:)

  423. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pippin… this bloody machine corrected and in fact changed the words meant to read:SPLITTING HAIRS.. but spitting air sounds good to.. I have to try to do that.. spitting air.. I wonder if we can set up teams and work toward maybe establishing national and international teams and we might even go as far and enter the Olympics? I like the idea great goal to set up… I will immediately advertise for people and only those who are full of hot air should apply to become a team member. Of course people who has dentures like you and me we can be the referees! I am all aglow! New horizons opened up and air is the only limit what we can achieve!

  424. christianscientology

    Hi Elizabeth

    I also enjoy communicating, dare I say “it is a great game” but as you say always involves a via. Like what we are doing now! And yes prayer is no exception however with prayer it can lead to COMMUNION where the ARC triangle has expanded to INFINITY.

    Which reminds me did you get my message on Facebook? How about inviting me to be your friend.


  425. christianscientology

    Elizabeth, I like it. Have you ever heard of the saying “you can’t step into the same river twice?


  426. christianscientology

    I think that is hilarious – SPITTING AIR vs SPLITTING HAIRS. I wonder if we can get SPITTING AIR accepted as an ‘in’ saying, a sort of cross between “talking hot air with such conviction that one ends up spitting, when in fact what they are getting passionate about is not worth making a fuss about”.

    So if it is ever going to graduate to Olympic status it has to have well defined rules. Only self-determined people with a full set of teeth may take part and as you say denture wearers should act as umpires because for them it is a no-games condition. Definitely a young souls sport.

  427. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pippin.. old body than you are in!!! fantastic… let the game began! PS: but even without teeth we can practise is good for the muscles ..hehehe!
    I bet I can spit bigger than you..hehehe . but how can we measure the distance, since it is invisible? we need to iron out these problems before we enter the Olympics!.

  428. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip.. practice don’t let age or toothless condition hinder.. we are winners after all and I believe I can out spit any young soul any time you see I am planning to cheat. and use a invisible bellow!

  429. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip… of course since there is no past and every act we do is in the new unit of time… in NOW!

  430. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip.. no I did not get the notice.. please send a new ling and I am honored by your request!

  431. christianscientology

    Talking of NOW I have just purchased from Amazon “How long is NOW” by Timothy Freke. Have you ever read anything of his? or maybe “The Power of Now” by Eckhart Tolle. Emma of ESMB fame could not speak more highly of it.


  432. christianscientology

    That’s a deal then “you and I together for ever”.


  433. christianscientology

    Hi Elizabeth

    That is all very well but we must avoid getting a reputation for being “full of hot air”!


  434. christianscientology

    I agree we must take into account the gravity of the situation. This of course is a SERIOUS matter so we need to bear in mind “SERIOUSNESS equals MASS” and be aware of Newton’s laws of motion, particularly the third, speaking strictly one ‘soma’ to another.


  435. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pippin I have given up wondering what others think of me, or carter too please them in order to think of me as ”nice good” and it seems reputation is built on assumption and not on reality.:)

  436. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip.. ”for ever”…do we have to sigh a billion year contract for that? If so the deal is off! 🙂

  437. Elizabeth Hamre

    I have read 2 of Tolle’s books when they have come out but that was some yeas back.. Pip.. Keep it in mind I have solo audited tens of thousands of hours and that gives many0many cognitions so I have come to conclusion on my own and I don’t have to read those books to understand SELF or the Universe.

  438. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip.. you got me with ”soma” I had to look it up… the first was a catalog selling bras and unmentionables I figured that was not you meant.. but Wiki say it is a plant , care to explain the meaning to me? You don’t want me to wonder around the Universe for eternity and search for the meaning of ”soma” do you?

  439. Elizabeth Hamre

    Are you aware that I am a new comer to this planet? only been here 2600 years? .. You are a true human that means you are locked into a very narrow band of considerations, that is not bad or good it is just IS so do your best with what you have..

  440. christianscientology

    Oh Elizabeth!

    It is Greek for BODY and no I would not want you wandering around the universe searching for that, even if you had your “bra and unmentionables”.


  441. christianscientology

    Got that Liz only it’s fun to read what others have experienced.


  442. christianscientology

    Well we do have to sign a contract but in this contract a billion years would be less than a blink of the eye, and the moment of signing will be so exquisite it will go on for ever.


  443. christianscientology

    Do we ever really give up wanting others to think well of us?

  444. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip. Yes… when we regain our understanding of self, t who we are and we don’t need others assurance of our value. We just know we have it.

  445. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip… no contract no bill of sale needed to have friendship!

  446. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip… right… I even had some cognitions reading those books.

  447. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip.. LOL but I thought you were wearing those.. cant be me since I am hanging lose here! 🙂

  448. christianscientology

    So who are you Elizabeth?


  449. christianscientology

    T.M.I. Liz T.M.I.

  450. christianscientology

    So did I


  451. christianscientology

    I thought all Scientologists believed in exchange.

  452. LOL!

  453. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip Exchange is our communication.. interacting energy flows.. something more needed to be friends? I don’t do pole dance!

  454. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip..Pip…Pip… [that is scolding] Do one have to have identity, some valance, title, is that a must? not in my book.. I have worked soled for 40 years, I even erased the reasons for believing having the ”’I”-or ”ME’ Self.. Even when we say few are friends that is indication to singularity.. doing-ness-havingness yes.. that being friends is a game condition. When being asked Who are you? to that question no answer arises and there is contentment..

  455. christianscientology

    Thanks Elizabeth

    If you were to mock-up a beingness just for me, what would it be?


  456. christianscientology

    Dear Liz

    I’m glad to hear that, especially since you “let it all hang loose”.


  457. Elizabeth Hamre

    PIP…….If you were to mock-up a beingness just for me, what would it be? LOL …Jesus in person!

  458. Elizabeth Hamre

    PIP.. we are intermingling, do be sure bathe regularly and use deodorant ! That is the must and do change your socks too! 🙂

  459. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip… I know that Nemesis exist, when two equal force want to destroy each other, it can be deadly battle in which neither can win or lose. These battle can rage over countless life times.. tell me your understanding of what is Nemesis.. I would love to hear it. love ya!

  460. christianscientology

    Hello Elizabeth

    Sorry for the comm.lag been attending to my MEST universe!

    You are my definition of Nemesis. An opponent that cannot be beaten or overcome. I remember the day I had that thought and I remember also knowing the thought THESIS-ANTITHESIS=SYNTHESIS. I sort of know that whatever I come up with as a thesis you will come up with the antithesis and there is where the fun is, the possibility of a synthesis.

    There is no fun in having a tug-of-war if the other person won’t pull on the rope. Perhaps the solution is WILLING EFFECT IS TOTAL CAUSE.


  461. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip old thing I thought you went on your annual eastern journey doing your duty and walking by Jesus’s and carrying the slivers.. .!
    By the way if the dinner in order to celebrate his coming out of his drug stupor than tell them I accept the invitation… or all of them can come here but it will have to be potluck and everybody have to bring something. I will be roasting a pig hehehe.. I am sooooo evil..
    And I am not into pulling ropes I just have to let you know, I am into pushing it since everyone can pull a rope that is very ordinary way of doing things, everyone can do that!
    I looked for your comment every day Love you back! 🙂

  462. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip I am not looking for solution for our exchange. there is no solution needed we are having fun.. if you don’t mind me making fun of your believes well than we are on the right path.. I am waiting for your coming at me. How did you like my Jesus valance? Not bad eh..? but I bailed out before they were going to put that valance on the cross using nails! how barbaric! and I was called barbaric when as Attila I have used stakes !

  463. Elizabeth Hamre

    Dear Pip.. so finally you have thrown in the towel.. the pig did it was the heavy weight which have tipped the scale! You are one grand person a worthy opponent!
    Be well, and have fun.. best to you and your kind wife!. Much Love! Elizabeth

  464. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip.. or when I said Evil I am? you have not read any of my posts in my blog therefore you can not know that my very favorite subject to hunt for and to confront in sessions were and still are O/W’s, I also had at ST Hill a special rundown after OT 7 which was not on the chart or mandatory it was called Integrity Rundown. That was dealing with subjects as evil p. and O/w’s. I had so much fun and wins life changing realizations that they become my favorite to hunt for and confront. Evil intentions O/W’s are none existent ..not one left.. .:)

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