Tony Ortega’s blogging campaign against my wife Monique and me over the past three months has resulted in the largest wave of hate we have experienced in several years. We even saw that an erstwhile friend published an unsolicited psychiatric evaluation (including still more falsehoods) to explain our behavior as characterized by Ortega. The following descriptions of Monique (some referred to both her and me) written by Bunker regulars and published by Ortega pretty much sum up the sentiments Ortega has fueled:
- “Sympathy? I has none.
- Monique, no respect. NONE. Sympathy? Nope. I never want to hear from these losers again
- subservience , irrationality, and paranoia
- Marty and Miscavige are cut from the same cloth. And Monique? Well, she did marry the guy.
- I wouldn’t be surprised if the Rathbuns name would surface somewhere in the future when some stuff like the “Panama-papers” are leaked again.
- classless and nasty (both)
- Mosey has fallen under thrall of whatever fixed delusion he is living under.
- Somehow they were turned, Whether from threats or payoffs or some combination of the two.
- I hope like hell the next Rathbun post will be how Mosey blew the ranch and escaped from Marty.
- Either Monique is drinking Marty’s kool aid or I think the next thing we will hear about is a divorce.
- The Rathbuns are as mentally ill as Scientology.
- I’m very much afraid that the one who is going to end up rueing the day is Monique.
- Well, she does heve to wake up next to Mr Scilon Warrior every day… I don’t envy her that..
- I find it hard to maintain any respect or trust for them at this point.”
For those Bunkeroos already sold on Tony’s sexist pitch that Monique is incapable of making decisions of her own, the comments describing me included: “a burning train wreck, a fictional Nazi, a hanging judge, a mini-Hubbard, callous and unrepentant, boy, He’s nuts!, an asshole, FUCKIN DELUSIONAL, Marty doesn’t seem stable, an old alter ego who now embraces Hubbard’s paranoia even worse than before, He may or may not be a sociopath…He is certainly narcissistic and has other qualities that are borderline at the very least, I really think Marty has gone off the deep end too, a little mental illness, he is still “living in his head,”MR loves MR alright – but both stand for Mark Rathbun…He has never stopped playing footsie with his ex-boyfriend, He’s a sack of shit, an asshat selfish prick, some serious fuckery, Marty went nuts, My opinion is that Marty has gone over the edge and is behaving very self-destructively (unfortunately now with people to drag down with him), This appears to be a battle of two narcissists, I believe his hands got very dirty.” And finally, “I don’t think Marty is stable and that is not an environment to raise a child in.”
In this whirlwind of hysteria that became the Bunker comments section a few days ago, a singularly dissident voice interrupted, briefly. It was not rude. It was not assertive. It merely posed a question. The comment was not made by a friend or ally of ours. It was made by Alanzo, a long-time scientology critic who has unloaded quite a bit of criticism on me over the years. I thought it was interesting how quickly Bunkeroos sought to label him a troll and dismiss his apparently dangerous, if simple, thought. I re-publish it below for two reasons. I believe that standing alone it serves as a textbook study in phenomena we have explored in-depth on this blog (see e.g., Culture of Complaint, Good vs. Evil, Vortex of Hate, etc). The second reason for re-publishing, which serves to reinforce the first reason, is that Tony Ortega took it upon himself to censor this thread. He left in the plethora of ill-mannered demands for Monique’s and my necks. But, he deleted and censored Alanzo.
The deleted/censored thread:
Tony wrote: “In a bizarre document, Monique makes accusations that her former attorneys — Ray Jeffrey, Marc Wiegand, Elliott Cappuccio, and Leslie Hyman — had made it “abundantly clear” that the lawsuit was “not worth it financially,” and that the attorneys had filed defective paperwork that allowed Scientology’s attorneys to file appeals that caused delay.
Note Tony’s word “bizarre” used above to describe the document.
Is this Tony’s bias, or is he just reporting the facts?
chukicita Alanzo • 29 minutes ago
Perhaps it’s a bit of both. Certainly it’s not a typical document, and the accusations are unexpected and unusual. What word would you have used to describe it?
This is a blog, not a newspaper, and I think Tony does an excellent job of bringing the facts to light and keeping his opinions in check at times, even though he doesn’t have to.
Alanzo chukicita • 4 minutes ago
I think that the document has to perform an abrupt change in a course of action, and that it should be allowed to speak for itself.
Because this is a blog, and not a newspaper which is supposed to be more objective, I think it is even more important to question Tony’s opinions and to be on the look out for his bias on things and to remember that he has no corner on the truth. Other viewpoints and other opinions exist besides Tony Ortega’s, and sometimes those differing opinions shed more light on the truth, and on Scientology, than Tony Ortega could ever muster.
Everyone is biased in favor of Ray Jeffrey here, and his team of lawyers. And we even have another lawyer as an “expert” giving his opinion about the criticisms of Ray Jeffrey, which, unsurprisingly, are very “pro-lawyer”.
Maybe Monique presented a document to the court which was true, and the criticisms of her former attorneys were justified. Why else would such abrupt action need to be taken? Perhaps we should ask Mr Occam, too?
Do clients normally never disagree with the course of actions taken by their attorneys unless they are insane as Tony and Texas Lawyer have both intimated? Do Tony, or even Texas Lawyer, know the particular situation with her lawyers better than Monique?
So I think this is exactly where Tony, and Texas Lawyer, should keep their biases to themselves. And if they are unable to do that, those biases should be highlighted, and questioned by the “commenting community” here.
That is, if the commenting community here cares about the truth.
L Wrong Hubturd Alanzo • 14 minutes ago
5 comments, 6 votes. I do not think you are the real “Alanzo”
Alanzo L. Wrong Hubturd • 5 minutes ago
Yes. I am the Real Alanzo. I went into retirement last year when I got news that my best friend had cancer, and I could not imagine wasting my time on anything related to Scientology ever again. So I whacked all my accounts.
But my friend has gotten radiation and chemotherapy and it has lengthened the amount of life he has left to live, and so I felt I could afford a little more Scientology in my life.
chukicita • 15 minutes ago
Additionally, I think the knee-jerk reaction that somehow Monique was being called insane was not useful at all.
The *behavior* of firing successful lawyers was, in the absence of other information, being called out as inconsistent with the original goals of the lawsuit. Reading over the original blog post, no one called *Monique* insane.
chukicita • 19 minutes ago
I think it’s important to look at the pattern of behavior that at least on the surface seems to be a thread of cohesion in some litigation that involves Scientology. Perhaps Dr. Occam could call up Bob Minton and Ken Dandar.
If you have facts that contradict, why not offer them up?
L Wrong Hubturd chukicita • 12 minutes ago
I do not think think this is the Alonzo you think it is. I think we have an impostor, here to stir the pot.
Alanzo L. Wrong Hubturd • 3 minutes ago
Oh, make no mistake: I am here to stir the pot.
Obviously you don’t know the Real Alanzo.
ze moo • 29 minutes ago
No the word bizarre does fit the situation. This filing shows some no longer pent up anger and distrust of the lawyers involved. The client is not always right, but they do have approve what their lawyers do. It seems that a simmering disagreement has boiled over and this is the result.
It is bizarre to fire your lawyers when they are on a roll. All of the delays and appeals were foreseeable and should have been planed on.
While the legal work is over in this case, the story is not over yet.
Alanzo ze moo • 15 minutes ago
The pay out of this suit was never going to be unlimited. If you look at Monique’s document as a statement of non-viability of the economics of the lawsuit, I do not think it is bizarre at all.
And I think your description of a “simmering disagreement has boiled over and this is the result.” is pretty accurate. I think Marty has pretty good experience with how Church lawyers operate, and Marty and Monique might not have been listened to as closely as they should have been.
And since Monique stated that they were able to achieve outside of the court what the lawsuit sought to achieve in the court, she dropped the suit.
Sorry. This, if true, is not bizarre.
That is only Tony’s bias showing.
Marty, I am so sorry that this is happening to you. I had wondered why you were not on the Facebook page anymore and can now understand why. I am also glad to know why Monique fired her lawyers. Makes sense to me! I wish you both the best! I think you were actually very smart in picking Texas to come to when you left. Texans are a breed of their own, and one thing we really value is personal independence — being able to live your life without being harrassed. Again, thank you for speaking up on what is going on. I do hope Monique wins her suit, as it is a valid suit and she should really be recompensed for what she went through.
Sorry you and Monique are being bashed by Tony and his piranha gallery. I’ve been there myself but far more briefly than y’all. Have to say I don’t really understand why Monique dropped her lawsuit but I do get that it was hers to do with as she chose.
And IF you have received good money from the CofS to be quiet, I can only say I hope they paid the taxes on it for you. Best of luck to you and your family, Marty.
Marty, sorry to hear that you and Mosey are catching it for her recent legal actions. All the noise and all the rancor on all sides will die out the minute that David Miscavige is removed from his position of power. He is the straw that is stirring the shit but it looks as though he is beginning to step in it big time. Once he is gone things will blow over faster than any of us realize and the need for the Bunker, Mike’s blog, yours, ESMB, etc. will be over. DM’s real ability is to keep people at each other’s throats, which keeps them away from his own. Yet, his is Throat #1.
Thanks Kathy. It is remarkable to me that he can create such impressions even on those who know us.
Thanks Dan. I suggest you read and think about the links I provided.
I think everyone was hoping that you would be the Goliath here and take down DM. BUT, they are not living in your shoes and all the Saturday arm chair quarter backing in the world doesn’t make them an authority on ‘your’ life.
Take care and be well ~ no matter what.
I think ‘everyone’ has no idea whatsoever (certainly no experience) in how to go about accomplishing what you say they expected me to accomplish. A good place to start understanding the nuances is the book ‘David vs. Goliath’, by Malcolm Gladwell. Those beating their chests purporting to ‘take down DM’ are doing little more than strengthening him while petting their own egos.
It’s like the crowd at the Colosseum finding out out that they ran out of lions, Christians, or both. What will entertain them and feed their blood lust. Who will be brave enough to go into the arena and sacrifice themselves for their pleasure. Certainly not they themselves. They are the spectators, the critics, the judges. They have the good seats. Far from danger and free of charge. Marty, they don’t deserve to walk on the same side of the street as you and Monique. Try to let it roll off your back. The saying comes to mind; “don’t expect anything from anyone and you won’t be disappointed”.
Why are you obsessively cherry picking negative random comments from Tony’s blog? On the whole the comments have always been supportive of Monique, that hasn’t changed. CoS hacks register on discus to stir the pot on any blog. But you are not quoting Tony, you are quoting unknown anonymous commenters and blaming Tony for what they write? The comments you chose to copy and publish were from mostly random anonymous commenters – not the regular consistent commenters at the Bunker. They weren’t up voted much or reorientation of the majority of comments at all – you had to dig to find them. All the same I don’t know why you are so upset or surprised that there are negative comments on a blog about Scientology lawsuits – its par for the course. Remember your blog after Debbie Cook settled? The lack of information and facts on the matter has left ppl speculating and jumping to conclusions – also to be expected. Towards the end you had a very open and fair policy on your blog towards comments. Why do you want Tony to censor his of any negative content?
You Sir, are owed a massive apology by Mr. Ortega. I’m really sorry to see what you have been put through and wish you and your family all the best.
I don’t want anything. You might want to examine how a simple set of facts can get you so riled up.
Well said Marty. Sometimes groups aren’t happy unless there’s a martyr and when there isn’t one they look for someone to sacrifice to please the Gods. I haven’t walked a mile in your shoes and neither is Tony or any of his followers. Once your family’s interaction with the church went legal things changed. Those who supported you hoped they’d see you carry the football over the Finish Line in winning the game against David miscavige. They all need to realize it’s your life it’s your family’s future and the game changed. Peace and happiness to you and yours.
As the Tao notes: seek the approval of others and you become their prisoner. Really, that’s been the gist of my message for the past couple years.
Does DM have pre-signed, undated resignation letters for trustees and/or board members of the various Scicon entities? How (legally, not actually) are those positions determined?
Thanks Gayle. But,the game has never changed for us.
If cherry-picking is how we go today, I do hope you took some time to cherry pick all the terrific comments that have appeared on the Bunker wishing you and Monique much luck, good wishes, happiness, joy, peace, safety, health, freedom, family time, and much, much more. They number in the thousands, perhaps much more. Surely, if one wished to look at things in a positive light, these would stand out, would they not? Anger is such a terrible thing to waste time on. Call me Pollyanna if you wish, but I’m
aka Aqua Clara
PS Still wishing you and Monique much peace, happiness and joy.
Yes indeed Marty. It is amazing how people just don’t realize what a shark opportunist Ortega is. I never liked Ortega, what he did to you is utterly disgusting.
Thanks AC. I am not criticizing Bunkeroos per se. Perhaps my post wasn’t clear in that respect.
“And since Monique stated that they were able to achieve outside of the court what the lawsuit sought to achieve in the court, she dropped the suit.”
I’m not aware Monique said this. Can anyone elucidate?
To be honest, I’m glad you didn’t let yourself get bullied by ghostbusters back then, as I am that you dropped the lawsuit. Maybe that’s that proper balance of using force or not.
There are those that think, those that blink and those that stink.
One of these days, NoOOOOrton!
Let me apologize to you and Mosey for not standing up and writing something on Tony’s blog of support. I am sorry to see you two experiencing so much upset. You know I don’t usually comment, it is not my thing. Actually I did write something small replying to someone recently and I don’t remember if was on Tony’s or Mike’s blog. The person angered me enough to write something, as he attacked you and said he had only been blogging and attacking Scientology for 3 years and was never in Scientology. I noted that this person did not understand that if it wasn’t for you that none of this would be possible. That your blog is who we went to first before Mikes blog took over for you.
I said to my wife Marty must have his reason’s. As you noted on Tony’s blog which I do read and look forward to reading daily as I once did your blog. There were many attacks on you and Mosey. I thought it was mitigated somewhat by many bloggers showing some support for you and Mosey. I saw some decent comments mostly just not understanding why you stopped the litigation. Yes, Tony did slant his blog towards you must be nuts because you had great attorneys who weren’t screwing up, they seemed to be doing a perfect job “you were winning on every front”.
So let me show my support and love for you and Mosey. I do know you and no one else knows Scientology tactics better than anyone else and “must have had your good reasons”. I here you are back catching lots of fish, have fun!
Hey Murray. Thanks. Hope the family is all good.
Thanks Alonzo. It’s about time.
I’ve noticed a lot of fawning over a couple of message boards and blogs
We use to call them kiss-asses when I was young
The problem, is once one is and stays connected to a subject that is build on lies and deceit as Scientology is ones troubles will never end. It does not matter which side one flips too. The patterns of judge-mentalism, know best and self-righteousness induced by Scientology stay with anybody until one completely extract themselves and their minds from it.
Scientology is a destructive system on either side of it and most people obsess about it long after they leave the church or have crossed its path in any other way.
I think a plain statement where you’re hearts are on the matter would go a long way with the Confused and Startled ending their excited chatter.
I can just imagine you want to extract yourself from it as best as you can and focus on things that are more important to you, but I can’t speak for you.
You, Mark, have always been a beacon of what IS courage to me.
As well as integrity. Your unwillingness to gossip and share personal knowledge of others, no matter HOW tantalizing it might be is irreproachable. You have proven that over and over.
Monique is an amazingly strong loyal, devoted wife (and mother) and smart as a whip. Able to hold her own. And bring equal complementary strengths to any table.
The recent noise confirms sadly for me what I found disturbing several years ago.
Transformation and subsequent growth are way harder than many would like to believe.
And very sadly the very path some are following now will GROW the ego, rather than eventually get rid of it.
BUT that is gobbledegook to most. You lost TONS of ardent followers at one time — who wanted YOU to do the heavy lifting.
Instead of themselves.
It just doesn’t work that way.
If people can’t divine where our hearts are after four books, more than 1200 blog posts, innumerable media appearances, I am afraid there is no use in attempting to further explain it.
SORRY – NEED AN EDITOR 🙂
Should be “Your unwillingness to gossip and share personal knowledge…”
what ever others have to say about us do not alter any ways what we are and what we believe in…:) nothing can change our realities -beliefs but self… what others write their opinions-assumptions point where they are at, their own reality level how they see others and of course self. 🙂
have a grand day.
I am glad you have come back. As a never-in outsider, it is sometimes difficult to identify with the pain and suffering inflicted on victims by Miscavige. I think that can leave room for misunderstanding by those of us who haven’t experienced such a culture of dominance and abuse. I hope you and Mosey can accept that many people who have followed your blog for years truely want to see peace for you and your family.
What I think confuses some of us is that the snarky comments of a few people seem to trigger your anger very quickly. My hope is that you can experience the love and care many of us feel toward your family and realize that most people honestly care. Of course there will be those who follow out of idle curiosity or like to be back seat quarterbacks who think they know it all.
There are also people who have never met a Scientologist (southerners like me) who are baffled, saddened and appalled by the careless behavior Miscavige uses to destroy others. I understand if you both decide to step back from public life and concentrate on family. I have a son and believe me, they grow up fast. As you know, our children come first in life! If this comment is upsetting or inappropriate, please do not post it. Best wishes to your family! Ann
Dan, Ortega is only doing the elite’s bidding – he buttered up a fake sympathy for the indies but only to USE the indies for his puppet master’s agenda. He tries to portray the Bunker as “underdog” yet his agenda will only benefit the Elite: he is a master of black propaganda that makes Goebbels look like an amateur. I am saying this after having read thousands of his postings.
Marty, I saw the Ortega piece on my Facebook news feed and almost commented with the old joke, “The only side attorneys are really on is each other’s” but didn’t want to “talk out of school” so to speak.
I hope everything is ok and that you, Mosey and William can live your lives in peace now.
Amen buddy. Some folks are plain old OCD types with their speculative imaginations running on overtime..
Moving on up includes moving along, IMHO.
All the best to you and yours.
I don’t think the labeling, particularly the Nazi reference, helps carry your point.
I think a lot (say 75% ) of the speculation, tea leaf reading, etc could have been avoided had you just come out and gave an explanation or even a brief statement (other than claiming people would ‘rue the day’) as to why you fired the attorneys/dropped the suit.
If your goal was to simply stop the harassment (Squirrel Busters), did you share that with your attorneys from the beginning?
Perhaps if that was your only goal (and not necessarily to get damages) then your attorneys could have billed you hourly instead of taking it on a contingency basis.
I won’t speak for others, but what I find disingenuous on your part is that you shared (thru this blog and interviews with press) many details and the proceedings of the suit.
Then, without any ‘warning’ (for lack of better word) you go on radio silence.
Perhaps it is true you don’t owe anyone an explanation for your actions. But please don’t sit back and shake your head in disgust and disbelief that people who supported you felt dismayed by your 1) lack of openness and 2) unnecessary reaction to natural curiosity. (Did you hear? The Rathbuns dropped their lawsuit. Why? HOW DARE YOU ASK!)
I have read TexasLawyers posts and I did not find them to be offensive to the point where you have to threaten everyone (the rue the day comment) who agrees with them.
I’m an attorney and while I am not a litigator, I have seen my fair share of briefs and motions.
I mean no offense by this, but with the last motion, it was obvious that it was written by a pro se litigant. Or by an attorney who does not litigate for a living.
I still believe the vast majority of the Bunker supports Monique and wishes her well.
Your reactions (the blog posts) seem very scientological. And that is not a compliment.
IMO the main cause of all the bullet holes in COB’s tiny John Lobbs are the result of his inability to admit error or fault. And, of course, to apologize.
I don’t know if that is a trait all OTs share, but it’s not a good quality.
All are doing well including Shane and Chrissy with the Grand Children growing quickly, just like your boy.
Hi Marty and Mosey
I know, it has been a long time since you have heard my voice here.
In the meantime I have moved much further away from all things Scientology, and you might hardly recognize me as the same poster who was posting some years back.
It is a good thing. I did some serious soul searching and re-evaluating and arrived where I am today on my own terms.
But to address the subject of your post.
It saddens me deeply how quickly the opinions of a group can be altered. It is even sadder that often those opinions are based on nothing more substantial than uninformed speculations.
For my part, since I know very little about the ins and outs of the legal and personal aspects of Monique’s suit against the Church, I tend to simply acknowledge that I don’t know enough about it all to make any kind of “informed decision.”
Over the years I spent many hours reading your thoughts and data regarding various aspects of Scientology. I have watched your opinions shift over time, as have my own. I would no more want to restrict these changes in you than I would want someone else to try to restrict them in me. I have learned much from your data and from watching you evolve. Still I consider it would be very naive of me to to think I have any real idea of how you should or would act in any given situation.
But yes, there is much noise as some people scramble to try to nail down something that they apparently cannot grasp. Doing this as a group compounds the effect.
The reason you don’t hear much is that the plaintiff Monique Rathbun appreciates and respects the discretion required in navigating a complex lawsuit against a defendant with unlimited ability and willingness to use the process to destroy plaintiffs. The reason we are getting obsessive smear from Tony is that those he is carrying water for have zero respect of those factors.
I’m so sorry you & Mosey have to go through this. It’s hateful, it’s mean, it’s nasty and can be very stressful. Somehow, don’t let the stress of it get to either of you as it can make a person physically ill. We know only too well there are those would love to think you and/or Mosey got sick over this.
As for Ortega, the only impression made on me was one of disgust that he’d sink so low.
You have a long history of managing lawyers. I trust you know what you’re doing. In my own experience, I’ve had to discard a number of lawyers (and an even greater number of CPAs) in the course of business. People watch too much television about these experts. Experts are in constant need of supervision, much more than most people realize.
As for Ortega, as with most journalists, he needs to stir the pot to generate attention and income. It’s the nature of the beast. Like with experts, journalists too often have the ear of those with quick opinions.
Perhaps the big difference between you and the anti-cult movement (somewhat a cult in itself), is you’ve moved on to creating beautiful writing and sharing original spiritual observations. It’s funny that where I once thought of you as that “senior Scientology guy,” you now stand alone from from this scene. You’re Mark Rathbun, writer and spiritual teacher. You were smart enough to not get caught in the undertow.
I look forward to your next book!
Well Marty, madness has overtaken you at last. Little David broke you just like he broke Minton. At least with Minton he retained a certain amount of respect over the years which is more than you’ll get.
I apologize profusely for my comment about Mosey blowing. I have been supportive of your family having peace and happiness that every family deserves. A lot of families don’t necessarily or automatically get that peace and happiness for any long lists of reasons, most having nothing to do with Scientology.
I am weary of the hate and vitriol and I momentarily slipped in the mud. I hope you and especially Mosey will accept. I know what it is like to have a criminal sociopath targeting you. Most people who have never experienced it have no idea whatsoever what it is like, how unbelievably insane it is.
We all know Scientology goes for the throat, whatever means the most to you, whatever you would want to protect the most. I have been protected that. I think maybe you and Mosey are doing just the same. I wish nothing but the best for your family and hope we all can have the best Christmas and New Year’s this year than ever before. We all live and love under the same sky. Thank you.
Geez, Marty….I read some of Ortega’s post and couldn’t make sense of it. Probably because I think I know you guys! I couldn’t read any more and only skimmed over the quotes of some of the crap written above. I think I know where the riff began on his part…he thinks he knows all about the subject yet refuses to experience it. Never ran an engram. I wonder if he knows that could have created a positive effect on him and he’d have to admit he was wrong about certain things. You however are the best auditor I ever had. Hmmmmm….
Aside from that initial observation, Ortega finished losing me as a fan when I commented on the photoshopping of the Portland audience. I jumped on the photoshop accusation band wagon and suggested how it technically could have been accomplished. (I’ve only done this sort of thing for over 20 years now, work accepted, paid for, published….I don’t know all that much….) I don’t remember his exact words but he made complete nonsense out of what I said and tried to make me look really stupid. I was amazed! A guy who says he brings you the truth. How much dang photoshopping has he done in his life, that looked completely natural so you couldn’t even tell he added hundreds of people to a photo? (My people or object additions are never detectable…the Portland ones certainly were.)
So there’s the same “I know more than you do” without actual experience in the subject. Hmmmmpf.
I’m sorry you guys have to now go through all THIS crap too. My guess was that you just wanted to have and enjoy your family and move on. And if you got some kind of settlement, all the better. Whatever the reasoning I truly hope you do achieve what you want to accomplish.
Marty, I don’t know you and don’t claim to. I do know you’ve participated in “the machine” for long enough to use it to your advantage and also have it used against you. To a point, I get your vitriol for the Bunkerites (or whatever you want to call them) but I’ve read both blogs and Tony does a relatively good job of holding the line. It’s a blog…it’s not the New York Times, so some of your criticisms about Tony’s decorum are over stated. Frankly, the way this case ended and the lack of communication from your side was – in fact – bizarre. The reasoning provided to the court didn’t do much to diminish that impression.
You underestimate the people’s desire to see this cult dismantled. You also misunderstand the vitriol evident in the responses over at the Bunker. It’s less to do with you than it is to do with a failure to slay a dragon. I get it’s hard to see that given what’s been said about the two of you. Based on court rulings, there is no question Monique had the upper hand in the litigation – to this point. So yes, the retreat raises all sorts of suspicion and conjecture. This is Scientology we’re talking about after all.
You are obviously pretty ticked off but this was a PR failure on your side. Like it or not you are an important figure that will not easily leave the shadow of this cult. Frankly, given all of the experience you’ve had in this arena, I’m disappointed you failed to see any of this coming your way.
Ignore the Bunker, ignore Tony and ignore Miscavige. Two of those three will soon ignore you in return…one of them won’t.
Clearly you are informed by the very source I am writing about, and continue to forward the impressions he has conveyed. That you consider my pointing out some pretty clear evidence of censorship and hypocrisy as “vitriol” is interesting. Your last sentence is correct, but it is fairly clear you have it wrong as to who the ‘one’ is.
Thanks gr. It is nice to hear from you.
Hi Ann, I think you and many others actually miss the point. It is that Tony allowed incredible vitriol on his site against Marty and Monique. When Alanzo questioned that Tony was taking sides. Meaning Tony not only supported the idea that Marty and Monique lost there marbles by firing their attorneys but had actually instigated that viewpoint. Tony deleted Alanzo’s blog and the entire thread because he didn’t like his take on it being questioned. So Tony is not being fair and equal. Read Alanzo thread again. I believe Tony owes Marty a response and or an apology or both on his allegations. Marty has put himself on the line more than anyone in recent memory. They are both too important to people learning about what an insidious group Scientology is.
THDNE, Thanks a lot. I appreciate your words.
Sorry to hear about the BS. I knew you and Monique were doing what was right for you based on the information that only you two would have. You have both showed outstanding courage and an effort to help others, even if it meant you getting attacked. You got a BIG ball rolling that isn’t likely to stop. Many people state that the Truth Rundown series woke them up. Those people are taking steps to help others. Enjoy your beautiful family.
Amy and I will have to visit one of these days. We need another game of Pictionary.
This blog ain’t hacked ? just asking
Marty or Mark please post this:
Nobody in the world has come close to living, breathing and experiencing the FAIR GAME and venomous attacks to “destroy them utterly” than Marty and Mosey.
Nobody had 300 hate websites erected on them.
Nobody had 299 days of lunatic cuckoo’s next Miscavige representatives at their door.
Nobody had their confessional folders studied for the most personal of buttons to use viciously in campaigns designed to torment.
Marty loved his beloved brother, on one HATE PAGE the CULT stated Marty *murdered* his brother when Marty was Sea org at Int Base at the time of the suicide.
It was intentionally done to get in Marty’s head with the EVIL that only this demonic CULT can exude.
I have not always agreed with Marty, but I will always be his friend. No one who has not walked a mile in his shoes can make a judgement that is not viewed through a filter.
Don’t worry bro WE are on it.
Thank you for accepting my apology.
You are admitting your crime.
Laughs Out Loud.
Censorship and Hypocrisy, I like to lend thistittle for some humor:
Dan Let me congratulate you on your collaboration in writing Ruthless. I have bought the book and am really looking forward to reading it tomorrow. Do you realize after all this time it is coming out tomorrow!!!. It will download on my kindle I hope at midnight. I know what a terrific writer you are.
Do read what Marty has highlighted for you. I don’t want to get in a big discussion here of a completely out like myself and my family including my wife who is CL VIII and OT VIII and trained directly under Ron and an Indie like yourself but Miscavige is only part of the problem.
No Nazi reference intended Marty. My point was simply that Ortega’s propaganda is more inclined to serve an agenda than help the “underdog”. Thanks for pointing it out.
We really look forward to that.
You continue to childishly deflect by trashing Tony Ortega and anyone that comments at his blog.
“I have not always agreed with Marty, but I will always be his friend.”
People commenting on a blog constituted “the largest wave of hate” youve experienced in several years. Really? I mean really?
Good to hear from you, my friend. I’m glad you and the family are okay.
It is amazing how fast the “exes” and “never ins” are quick to judge, and how quick they are to turn on each other. So fast to judge Brian Culkin a while back, and Debbie Cook when she settled. I never read Ortega’s blog anymore. I tried commenting a couple of times, but I was always called a “Scilon Troll” or an OSA member, or of course just crazy. Lord forbid that someone might have an intelligent thought that differs from their opinions. These people claim to be friendly (seriously!) while they rip apart anyone who is not lock-step in line with their belief system. Tony has his own cult, and it is funny to see how much like the church that cult is. I feel like I need to take a few baths after visiting the comments section – and I advise anyone who will listen to disregard these people. In any event, the Bunker is so cussing predictable in their biases that I no longer feel the need to get dirty to see if anything’s different.
You have earned the right to have the benefit of the doubt and the assumption that whatever it is that you and Mosey do, it is A. the best for you, and B. consistent with what your core is. I have seen people who should know better saying that you guys took a payoff under the table, and that’s why you are attacking the lawyers. Unbelievable. It is amazing how fast people can turn and judge… from their armchairs.
I am as curious as anyone is to know what happened behind the scenes, but so what? That is your and Mosey’s business.
I wish you all the best to you and the family.
(I am going to need to interject here…)
Really? Sometimes I wonder how many persons surrounding the subject of Scientology’s demise are actually ex-Scn and how many are just there to instigate and watch the fight?
So, obviously you and your ilk feel that Marty and Monique needed to let everyone know and completely disclose their reasons for their actions, otherwise, it should be viewed “bizarre”. Who do Marty and Monique owe to keep this battle going? Who expects them to “keep fighting the good fight”? That I can see, only the persons selling the tickets.
I mean honestly, is it really that hard to see the Bunker is instigating the “suspicion and conjecture”? Well, for those who must have the fight continue, and the battle won, but who really don’t “have a dog in that fight”, then apparently, yes.
Well said, Karen.
Reply. I cut your message back to your first question – from which your expected reply launched a distempered tirade. No. That was the graphic, available, public summation of the effect (and indirectly) the intent of the piece by Mr. Ortega at issue.
Here is my completely different look at this. If I were Monique, and I had that cute little dumpling of a toddler, I would want to put my energies into living life, not into lawsuits and harassments. LIVE IT UP, Monique! Enjoy that baby and have a blast.
Edited to your first line serving as foundation for a distempered rant at me. Take a deep breath. How was my post a ‘trashing’ of Tony Ortega. Be specific please.
Thank you Murray. It is indeed confusing for an “outsider”.
Please Derrek, if you have it in your heart to leave this family alone I will applaud you.
Maybe you should let some things rest.
That is something a Scientologist never learns
Nuance Terril nuance.
Marty I am so sorry this craziness is going on. I support 1000% the decision Mosey and you made. You both have had to take on enough. Your family is the most important priority. I wish you nothing but the very best! ML, Jan
a bit harsch
“pushes the like button”
I’ve refused to jump on this spiteful or hate bandwagon, nor evaluate and comment only to say essentially, it is their life. And that we don’t know what the Rathbun’s personal reasoning is. And we won’t, we may never, unless they themselves share it. It’s no more than shit on a shingle in the meantime. Go cook some comfort food, or go to the beach, or go fishing for other fodder, camping, or hiking or biking and leave it alone and let them tell their story if and when they are ready.
And if they never tell it, I wish them Godspeed anyway.
That’s my final comment until we know more.
“I’ve noticed a lot of fawning over a couple of message boards and blogs
We use to call them kiss-asses when I was young.”
Yes. And now they’re called members of yet another cult but they don’t see it yet.
I also wanted to add a +1 to your thank-you to Alanzo.
Al, if you’re reading this, I commend you. We’ve had our heated debates over the years (but we had some fun too), and I gradually saw the purpose you had underneath it all. The comments of yours that Marty posted make it clear as well that your purpose is truth.
Marty, I see truth as your purpose too and thank you as well. Here again, I may not agree with everything you have to say, but your purpose shows through and sets a good example, which is even more important.
We in Europe are going to miss this guy:
I am shocked and appalled at the nature of the comments. I am also grateful to Alanzo for taking the time to ask that one uncomfortable question.
About maybe two years ago, I chatted over at the Bunker and was welcomed there. Poured my heart out (some of it, anyway) and was understood, which helped me enormously then. In time, however, the general tone seemed to become more aggressive and it felt more like scientology, where you must be careful to not say the wrong things. It is not quite that bad, obviously, because one isn’t physically present and therefore cannot be held hostage. Still, I didn’t feel safe anymore, and after drifting away enjoyed reading the comments less and less. Maybe the community has always been like that and my needs just changed?
For me, this used to be a kind of ‘war’. I grew up hearing about ‘the enemy’ (SPs, psychs and NWO), which then became scientology et al. as I began to feel and see something was wrong. Of course, I never really ‘fought’. I just watched and learned. Now I think that fighting and feeding one’s own hatred leads nowhere happy. I don’t know anyone’s agenda but mine, and that is to be happy in whichever way I can in the circumstances. I wish you and your family the same.
What some commenters said about you and Mosey is not the responsibility of Ortega. Also he did not fuel these ‘sentiments’. Nor is he not conducting a ‘blogging campaign’. I know Ortega as an integer investigative journalist.
Personally I did not agree with those nasty comments. But I noticed that most comments wish you both well. Not everybody can understand what is happening with the case. But many commenters are just concerned.
I was a big supporter of yours when you came out very publicly with The Shack and, later, Casablanca. I got a lot of venom spit at me but I really didn’t care because I knew former Sea Org members, and particularly you as the former IG/RTC, were in the best position to expose David Miscavige, OSA, and the system of the Church. I supported the Indies as well and got the same venom.
People who have never been on the nasty business end of OSA cannot possibly understand what you and Monique have had to endure.
I wish you and Monique all the best.
Vaya con Dios.
I sincerely wish you and Monique the best outcome. I hope you can put the Bunker comments in perspective and treat them with all the gravitas they deserve: NONE. Filed in the circular file. Gossip.
I do know many people who commented there who have wished you well, and have no axe to grind. Bunker commenters are a mixed bag.
I am sorry for all that you’ve endured and admire your strength throughout it all. I am grateful for all you’ve done to expose the cult.
I wish that you and your family will live a peaceful, happy life. Your legal and life decisions are your own for your own reasons.
Marty, you should cease back control of the narrative by simply explaining the need to pull the Dennis-Erlich tactic. People are suspicious that this is a third attempt of Scientology suing itself to establish legal precedent, make Internet law, and validate bogus copyrights, etc.
Why didnt you just say you settled the lawsuit out of court and get it over with? Why all the drama, mystery, affrontery and accusations? As a
(mildly) imterested observer all the anti ortega stuff looks like it was part of the deal. I have only ever read comments that supported your wife, maybe had a baffled attitude toward your actions, but wished you well. All of this seems like a puppet show. I do wish you well and hope its all over for you.
I know, you said this before and yet some are confused and startled anyway. It is your choice if you want to help them to clear this up or not.
Four books, 1200 blogs and innumerable media appearances are not a static affair. Life is a process and it evolves.
What seems not to evolve is how you react to ideas you consider unworthy or not doing yourself justice. It is a pretty constant.
I wish you and your family all the best.
I do get impatient when people insist on evaluating me psychologically in response to me presenting simple, cut and dried information.
There was no settlement. I missed the drama, affrontery, mystery and accusation. I don’t know how to put it in more simple, measured tones.
What ‘people’? What back control? I simply communicated some facts. I find your reaction to them peculiar.
Best lines for me in the Alanzo comments – “Oh, make no mistake: I am here to stir up the pot.” LOL! “Obviously you don’t know the Real Alanzo.”
When I began reexamining my scn experience after watching the HBO documentary “Going Clear”, Alanzo was there for me. It was my first try at blogging. He put up with my stupid posts and gave me any number of sensible replies to help me in deprogramming myself.
Regarding the above exchange of (censored) comments – Bravo Alanzo! Your integrity is Stellar!
I’m glad your best friend was helped by the radiation and chemo. My best friend once related that he passed up an opportunity to go to a really great football game because he “had to go to work.” He then related that life is short and he should have just skipped work and gone to the damn game! laughter
Have many more good times with your friend.
Love, Richard (aka “Clear?” on your blog)
I think if you had said something like that (your response) at the time Monique fired the attorneys, you could have avoided most of the ‘backlash’.
IMO, most people would respect your (and Monique’s) right to privacy on your decision to drop the suit. The problem was you (not Monique) availed yourself of the good will and wishes of the general public (including members of the Bunker) by discussing the merits of the suit, granting interviews, posting videos, etc.
It was only when you fired your attorneys, refused to comment and then posted a cryptic threat (rue the day) that people at the Bunker began to post negatively about you.
At this point, hiding behind the ‘Monique is the plaintiff’ argument is less than honest. You have been a large part of the case from day one. I don’t think it’s fair for you to now say you can’t comment because it’s her case.
Just like I don’t think it’s fair for you to say (in response to Aquaclear’s comment) that you did not mean to criticize everyone at the Bunker.
As Aquaclear pointed out (and a couple of others) you ignored the many (probably hundreds) messages of support for you and Monique and chose posts that were negative.
It seems to me that rather than come forward and say ‘we are choosing to keep quiet at this time. We thank you for your continued support’ would have been a LOT easier than all the ‘rue the day’ nonsense and this theory that Tony is ‘carrying the water for someone’ who doesn’t have your best interests at heart.
I don’t know what happened between you and Tony. I don’t know what happened between you and your attorneys. I do know that I would continue to wish you well if you chose not to share those details with me (as a member of the Bunker). I just don’t need to be accused of being part of a group that is out to get you simply because I wonder about a particular legal maneuver.
Since this has been litigation in the public eye, we (at the Bunker) have the right to analyze legal moves and debate the strategy, just as you have the right not to speak about it.
I hope you take these comments in the spirit in which they are offered. That is, I wish you well. I respect your need for privacy. I hope you understand that when we question why someone takes a certain course of action, we are not engaging in ‘fair game’.
I think it was a misspelling – he meant “SEIZE back control of the narrative.”
I’m glad to see Alanzo stirring again, and also glad that I didn’t waste an evening going to hear Ortega when he visited my town last year. But sorry that you’ve had so much malice directed at you from people who are trying to achieve … well, I dunno what they’re trying to achieve. Just compulsive game players.
I think you should also be specific and show how Tony is ‘waging a campaign’ against you.
Showing a couple of posts (not written by Tony) and claiming (with no proof) that Tony has censored posts does not prove your argument.
My thoughts (they are worth a penny). I think you are overreacting. Neither you nor Mosley explained the change of direction and that created a vacuum. Vacuums cry out to be filled. We at the Bunker were rooting so hard for Mosley to triumph. And then BAM. Ray Jeffrey and his team fired. We love Ray Jeffrey at the Bunker for the way he handled Debbie Cook’s lawsuit. Then Mosley withdraws the whole case and makes some disparaging remarks about the Jeffrey crew. People have egos and feelings and some reacted unkindly. People should be kinder and gentler. That said, some kind of explanation would have prevented a lot of the backlash. Don’t forget the good parts. We were there for Mosley when she took on the fight. I read many comments that said, “I wish them well.”
“no settlement”: so you just unilaterally disarmed, and are trusting to Miscavige’s benevolence? And you really don’t understand why people don’t think that makes much sense? And you don’t know how to put it in any other way except to lash out at anybody who doesn’t understand?
“Fill your bowl to the brim
and it will spill.
Keep sharpening your knife
and it will blunt.
Chase after money and security
and your heart will never unclench.
Care about people’s approval
and you will be their prisoner.
Do your work, then step back.
The only path to serenity.”
Tao Te Ching, section 9, by Lao Tzu
“Sometimes I wonder how many persons surrounding the subject of Scientology’s demise are actually ex-Scn and how many are just there to instigate and watch the fight?”
According to popular belief, it’s people’s people of the people who want Scientology’s demise.
But it also seems premature to me, to have that division between Tony and Mark so soon, for just withdrawing a lawsuit. I just don’t see why he would want do that, given that Mark is no pro-SCN. I also tend to get very suspicious about who is OSA or some other agent -from the commentators- and what gain he’d have out of that, as well as anything else that happens.
Aside from this current dispute, a long gone man takes the blame, and I have even read that DM is his victim. I really never met the guy, but someone with a billion in cash out of donations doesn’t sound like a victim to me –nor do I assign all responsibility to him, anyway, because I have also seen sh*t outside the COS.
hell, I got banned from commentating on his site for fat-shaming Kirstie Allie (with a shooped pic)… the thing that really irked was that he dared to ask for people’s opinions on doing this but loaded the question in such a way that he made it clear that no other opinion than his own would be tolerated.
that aside Marty by consciously not explaining any reasoning behind your wife’s decision and leaving cryptic comments you opened up massive speculation… a simple “please respect our privacy in making this decision” would have curtailed 90% of the responses out there… just sayin’
After a second reading early in the morning, I think you did right to repost the postings of Alanzo here. And Ortega should not have deleted it. He seems not to like criticism on his part. I’ve seen it before. Also, he might be a bit more careful with the words he uses sometimes. I usually think it’s because of the American English, but now I think it is not. A little bit more tact and/or reserve imo might not be misplaced. But still, he’s a good reporter.
“The goal exists in every moment of our life situation on our spiritual journey. In this way, the spiritual journey becomes equally exciting and beautiful, as if you are Buddha already. There are constant new discoveries, constant messages and constant warnings. Constant cutting down. Constant painful as well as pleasurable lessons. . . . It is a complete journey.
. . . It doesn’t have to be labeled ‘spirituality’ as such.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche – Tibetan Buddhist Meditation Master 1939-1987
The above encapsulates for me the spiritual journey that Mark, in his own way, helped many of us travel as he emerged onto the outside scene (call it whatever you wish).
Each, one or all of us have had and will continue to have our own uniquely, yet all embracing human journey.
I wish you all well.
I’m pointing out a graphic example of how TO creates such sentiment and a mindset that jumps to such erroneous conclusions. That’s all.
Last night before I turned in I read Karen’s post here on your blog. It gave me food for thought as I went to bed. This morning I had the realization that most, if not all, of my opinions of you and the lawsuit withdrawal is based on incomplete information. Oh how we humans are good at thinking sometimes that we know it all, and then make firm conclusions or opinions based on that assumption of knowing it all. Well, I certainly don’t know it all. I don’t know all the dynamics involved in why your wife and you decided it was best to withdraw. I don’t know really anything about the relationship between Mosey, you, and the attorneys. And although I can sorta guess what it’s been like dealing with the cult’s attacks, there is no way I can fully feel firsthand what it’s been like.
I have to admit that I’ve been angry about the lawsuit withdrawal. I had placed a lot of hope in that lawsuit. I really believed that it was the most important court case. The one that had the most potential for devastating the cult and Davey. But I was probably overly optimistic. To use biblical terminology Mosey’s case became “an idol in my heart”. It was hard to see it go away. But, the fact is the call wasn’t mine to make. It was never MY lawsuit.
I apologize therefore for the comments I made last night on The Bunker and for the one I sent you directly. I was out of line. I do wish your family all the best. May Peace be with us all.
That is understandable given the effect Tony has successfully created upon his readership. I was pointing out one graphic example of how the process works.
I am pointing out a graphic available example of how Tony creates a mindset. I’m not arguing.
I offered you a graphic example of how Tony creates such prejudices and mindsets. Clearly you’ve found it useless.
Thanks. Are you the original Lone Star whom I have met?
Marty. The first time I had ever heard of you was after reading the SP Times and watching the videos that they produced of you and the others that came forward so many years ago. From the bottom of my heart I would like to thank you for all you have done because what you had said at that time freed me from the trap known as Scientology. I watched as you progressed and grew over the years. I saw your viewpoint change. I saw some people attacking you and being critical of you. Since that very first time I had heard and read what you had written I have been a fan. I have and always will defend you no matter what someone else might say.
I have changed a lot over the years since I left the cult after reading your blogging and I have supported you on every blog I was ever part of such as Ex Scientology Message Board, The underground Bunker, Facebook, and all of the others. I followed you as you met and married your wife and had a child all the time wishing you the best success in your endeavors. I felt empathy for you when you were attacked by the PIs and the “Squirrel Busters”. From the very beginning you made it safe for people to post their disagreements and true feelings about Scientology and David Miscavige by pointing out that Scientology did not have enough resources to attack all of us. I have to admit in the beginning after watching the Truth Rundown I was afraid to comment and speak out against the beast we know as Scientology but you and Mike Rinder made it safe for me and others by taking on Scientology yourselves.
I do follow Tony Ortega and the Underground Bunker and I am thankful that it exists. I usually agree with the reports and news I read there and Ortega’s opinions. I followed the court case that you and Mosie were bringing against the Church and David Miscavige and was always happy to read of the successful actions that were occurring with it and your attorneys beating COS attorneys. I just didn’t understand why you and Mosie fired the lawyers and seemingly stopped what appeared to me to be a winning strategy against David Miscavige and the COS. Admittedly I do not know all of the facts of the case and actually it isn’t really my business but I would have liked to see you and Mosie continue your suit on Miscavige and the cult and win it big time with a huge financial reward. I can only imagine how much time and energy the two of you must have had to spend on all of this while at the same time trying to earn a living and grow in your relationships.
Thank you for everything you have done and I wish you and your family the best in the future.
Yes. I will always remember being with Mosey in the hall outside the courtroom when she confronted that OSA op volunteer. Good times. LOL!
One of the reasons I am feeling remorse for my comments is that I know firsthand what a very stellar and exceptional person your wife is. I also know that she is strong and very smart. I should’ve known that if she decided to withdraw the suit then there was very well thought out reasoning behind it. And I do agree that she doesn’t just “do what you say”. She’s quite capable of making decisions. You are a very fortunate man Marty R!
I got riled up because I think you are trying to portray a whole site that actually supports you and you Monique as a hate site due to a few negative anon comments. You could have posted the literally thousands of positive comments, but instead focused on tiny fraction of negative ones. I read the bunker regularly and will read the top comments as well, and I had never read anything but support, good will and understanding from the bunker comment section for you and Mosey. (I’m sure you want to dig down to the bottom of the barrel you will find jerks but that’s true anywhere online). To people who don’t actually read the bunker it may seem legit, but to regular readers it has us wondering wth?
Have you ever considered what you think is cut and dry is very confusing to others? Most people I know who watch and keep informed on CoS abuse are mystified by your posts and actions, believing you purposely obfuscate and talk in philosophical circles. When people can’t figure out what’s going they try to fill in blanks with their own speculation – and that’s happened again and again in the past two years due to lack of direct answers or communication. Do you own anyone answers, no. But don’t get mad if they then try to come up with them on their own, humans hate a void.
I think I once tried to point this out to you many years ago. The foundation of philosophy is agreed upon language. If definitions of words have not been established beforehand a serious discussion or debate cannot take place. (Just look at the history of the word “being” within the philosophical framework and the books that have been written on what that one word means.) I always thought people had a lot of trouble accessing your posts due to this missing foundation/ common language issue.
Thanks LS. No need to feel bad. It is easy to get confused when the target of a campaign is constrained by legal considerations from freely educating the public at large. Tony understands that and is exploiting it at Monique’s expense. Early on in his campaign he called a suggestion that perhaps Monique was doing my bidding “incredibly sexist.” Since, he has led his followers to take as a given that she is merely an appendage of me. The narrative he’s peddling is false beginning with the first toxic seed he planted which was an out and out lie about Monique. My post was intended to bookmark a graphic example of the tactics that are being used to create a false narrative.
Thanks Dean. Please see my response to Lone Star.
Thanks Dean. I hope you take into consideration the tactics employed on those following Tony Ortega.
I’m sure Marty well remembers five years ago when he thought Alanzo was a pest. The reason Alanzo got banned from one message board was because he relentlessly accused others of being under the sway of “Marty” and doing his bidding. He was convinced Marty was taking over the critic field behind the scenes at the behest of the CoS for years. Alanzo thought Marty was the master puppeteer and all the exes had been fooled by him and were now taking his orders Sigh.
Also Tony didn’t delete “Alanzo’s blog” it was a comment on a post. Alanzo has (or had) his own blog for years and can write as much as he wants there about Tony/Marty et al, but he wanted a real audience so he went to Tony’s blog. (Notice that, it’s Tony’s blog. Most people supported Marty moderating his blog as he sees fit, but I guess Tony doesn’t get that same courtesy.)
The dead agent caper. More hypocrisy.
I, for one, am glad you did. It is an excellent example, but not the only one. Several posters on both Tony’s blog and the exscn forum practice the same exact tactics towards my husband and I. Although I’m sorry you and your wife have to now experience this, I’m also confident that you are successfully using the experience in such a way as to help people understand how it works.
I’m trying to point out how toxic seeds are implanted in your head. That you don’t see it is understandable.
Just like your leader – no honest, self-examination possible.
Anyone who has attained OTVIII (Truth Revealed) will totally understand the GPM content of the comments made in this exchange of communications. Every OTVIII will just smile at all the unsubstantiated crap hitting the fan. Everyone who has attained OTVII has actually almost attained OTVIII, but they cannot bring themselves to observe and understand that the state of OTVIII lies hidden with them.
Obviously Tony Ortega has not attained OTVIII, although itâs possible for an OTVIII to lose their ability if they make untested claims. Anyone who participates in this exchange of opinions (including myself) runs the risk of showing the rest of the world that they are still stuck. Mark Rathbun, if an OTVIII, has the right, and almost but not quite the duty, to point out to reactive minds the error of their ways. He is helping them, not hodng them back.
I suggest that this exchange of mostly garbage is an excellent starting point for identifying so called Scientologists who are still unable to stop their reactive tongues from rattling.
Blessed Be (from witchcraft).
Awareness and Responsibility (from Scientologists)
and Fact, Faith and Truth (from all OTVIIIs and Wizards of The Occult)
I was a Fellow of the Chartered Quality Institute and qualified as an âauditorâ long before I joined the COS. Both The COS and the Free-zone are perfect just the way they are. Similarly both Scientologists (knowledge based Wizards) and Witches (Mystery based Witches) work their opposite ways up and down the Know to Mystery Scale.
P.S. I first started my “deprogramming” by reading extensively in Mark’s “Deconstructing Scientology” series of topics. I then went to Alanzo’s blog where he gave me valuable feedback.
These two men, Mark and Alanzo, have made a significant and lasting influence in my life, and not just regarding scn, but also by sharing their thoughts and insights. Thank you both.
Tony Ortega vacillates between good reporting and trash. That his readers cannot see the difference , that key words do not make them jump and reject is kind of sad. Getting the latest news is important to most who want to see the abuses end , but lets keep a dispassionate eye on the writers.
This blog has helped countless people , never trashed , aimed at greater awareness and objectivity. And that’s all I know.
“Express yourself completely,
then keep quiet.
Be like the forces of nature:
when it blows, there is only wind;
when it rains there is only rain;
when the clouds pass , the sun shines through.”
I think your post was clear. T.O. creates/has/forwards a mindset with his writing no doubt. I was also dumbstruck with Monique’s recent legal action but realize I’m not in the know on the inner goings on with the case. No one who isn’t intimately involved with the case is. That is the nature of these things. Some people will naturally jump/reach/reactively come to conclusions despite their lack of information, many not realizing they lack information or the bias from their information source. Such is the typical reaction of people.
Those with skin in the game have a different viewpoint. They learn quickly that opinions one reads in the papers or blogs is not the reality. But it seems only those with experience realize this. Too many develop their views by watching television dramas, which are pure fantasy by comparison. Sigh!
I wish you and yours well. I’m still looking forward to some of Monique’s Blueberry pancakes one of these days.
Marty, I appreciate the time you have taken to explain your situation. Anyone who has been a parent will realize that once a child enters a family, that child is the number one priority. If that is your stance, I think most rational people would support your move 100%. Your role as a husband and father are more important than any other “hat” you wear.
I wish only the best for you, Mosey and your greatest miracle, your son. I hope you can soon focus your attention on the joy that comes with the love of a family and ignore any outside criticism. Miscavige probably loves to see you dealing with strife, no matter where it comes from. Is there a way people who want to see peace for your family help with the process?
I know it is hard to decompress from an us-them mentality when you have been under siege for so long! I hope you and Mosey are able to surround yourself with a community that includes a mix of people who have never heard of Scientology! I have never walked in your shoes, but my heart breaks for all the lies you were told in Scientology and the cruelty that you were not protected from. Thank God your son will be shown a better way. All my best, Ann
Hi Lush, I wondered what happened to you. Hope you’ll get readmitted.
Thank you, Marildi.
That means a lot to me, coming from you.
Wow Richard, thank you for that.
Comment Deleted. Won’t have people casting aspersions at me invoking the relationship between members of my family. – Moderator
Out beyond the fray, where there is no “us vs them”, it’s easier to get where people are coming from. I’ve been reading the reactions to your post and I would say that fewer than 10% of the people commenting on it understand any of it – even though it has been explained very clearly.
When you’re in the fray, you type feverishly for your viewpoint, your argument, your side. You are grooving in all your neural pathways to see the exact same things you’ve been setting yourself up to see. Any new data must fit into your existing neural framework. And if there is no neural groove for it to fit into, it does not get seen.
That’s why it is so important to question people who are setting up others to see things like Tony Ortega. I appreciate you giving me a voice here after Tony banned me from his blog for calling out his and Rachel Bernstein’s abuse of Scientologist Cathy Tweed.
It’s not a popular position. Maybe Cathy Tweed is an easy villain. Maybe there’s a neural pathway all grooved in for her in everyone’s tribal mind, and no cruelty is unjustified for her.
But any mother who has lost her daughter to suicide deserves a break from the hateful mass of misunderstanding here in the fray. And anyone who has gone through what you and Monique have gone through deserve the same.
Thanks for everything.
Thanks Alanzo. I came to the conclusion that Nassim Nicholas Taleb (The Black Swan) was right philosophically and Daniel Kahneman (Thinking Fast and Slow) was right clinically in finding that most humans think subconsciously by narratives. We create stories (accepting outside help wittingly or not) and as the narratives become more entrenched we automatically judge facts against their degree of consistency with our narratives. Might even be why dianetics produced whatever results it did – being grounded in running things out through the narrative. The books noted above, combined with my frustrating experience of trying to find and share a middle path with people clinging to narratives however flawed, influenced me turning to fiction to share whatever I might have to share. I think this whole record demonstrates how difficult it is for a lot of people to process facts that don’t agree with their pre-existing narratives. It is remarkable how cruel people can become in the name of defending their narratives. In honest retrospect, me included.
I hold you, Mike Rinder and Debbie Cook in the highest esteem if only for having provided guidance during my period of departure from the Church of Scientology after having been “in” for 40 years. I initially left the group because I saw that the organization was not following its own policy and had become obsessively focused on money.
I later indulged myself on everything I could find in the media and the internet that had anything to do with Scientology. I experienced a period of shame from realizing I had been a part of a group that treated others in a hateful and vindicative manner under the guise of religion.
No matter what others may say, you stood up and spoke out against the abuses that were being committed by that church. Your words have helped others free themselves from that group.
It is very easy to tell another person what course they should take in their actions but yelling from the grandstand quickly becomes just a lot of noise.
I thank you for the helpful knowledge you have provided for myself and others.
It is none of my, or anyone else’s business what you may intend to do with the time ahead of you. I truly hope it will become a time that you and your family can look back on with fondness and a sense of fulfillment someday.
I agree we all have deeply entrenched subconscious narratives based on many factors. However, by allowing oneself to be exposed to different cultures, lifestyles and education does help a person escape from a narrow world view. Intellect is important (I have graduate degrees from Columbia University and U of Notre Dame), but many academics get caught up in what I call “mental masturbation”.
Empathy is a great start towards growth. However, it is hard to empathize with yourself and others if you have never been shown empathy yourself. From what I have read, empathy is a dirty word in Scientology. I hope you and Mosey are surrounded by friends who possess the love and empathy that it takes to heal from trauma. And trauma is what you both have experienced in the last several years. For some love is a dirty word, but for others it has tremendous healing power. All my best. Ann (and no, I am not a Bible thumper!😀)
You are very wise Alanzo. I didn’t see that before, but now I do.
Thanks for that Mark, it’s appreciated.
I wouldn’t exclude the role that the internet plays in this. It is an accident waiting to happen, especially when exchanges have been on autopilot for too long.
You were banned for questioning that suicide/facebook postings post by Tony?
That’s interesting, because I had been considering doing a post about that because I really felt that angle that Tony took was horrifying and way out of line. For one reason, because so much blame was being placed on the mother and scientology for the daughter’s decision to kill herself.
Having been on the other end of a suicide, I think it’s hard for other people to truly understand the hit it represents to the living. I also think that the responsibility for the action lies squarely on the shoulders of the one doing it and trying to shift it otherwise is just untenable and is escapism at its worst.
No one has a right to *force* someone to live, any more than they have the right to *force* someone to die.
I really do not get what is meant by the reference to “narratives”. Running conciously, subconciously or on any other plane. I am certainly capable of looking it up but I think I am not alone on this. I laughed when Marty relayed his frustration of trying to find and share a middle path and this led him to writing fiction in order to share life truths and lessons. I know the Freemasons most important and valuable truths are taught using symbols. Maybe symbols undercut individual “narratives”, whatever they are.
I am so sorry when I see folks attacked by Sn who are also attacked by other ex’s. Hang in there!
Using the narratives example, I also happen to believe that anyone “cancelling” disconnection will not change ANYTHING with scientology or scientologists. The spirit of fair game will live on, just like you see it doing at Tony’s blog comments section and a number of other venues.
It’s about how people, and what they have been prompted to believe is ok to do when someone or something makes them very uncomfortable in their narratives.
That isn’t going to change just because someone cancels “official” disconnection. The many subtle forms of shunning, the turning away, the “we’re not hiring” (or whatever form it may take) will still continue because people don’t want to have to deal with especially uncomfortably true challenges to their bubbles.
That’s not a scientology thing, it’s a lot more pervasive than that could ever be.
It’s my practice, probably the most difficult for me, to experience the irrationality and false judgements from others as a sort of being in the spiritual olympics.
Being falsely judged, and not reacting in kind, builds some big ass spiritual muscles. Not the least of which is a heroic personal power; fearless and indestructible.
Sounds like the gauntlet is working for you. I honor your balanced reaction to the onslaught. 🙂
I personally don’t see anything wrong with what Mr Ortega wrote, what commenters wrote or what Marty or Monique have written. I must say I am impressed (as the Scientology lawyers would be) at how effectively they have gotten the “other side” to turn on each other over what I see as irrelevant fluff. This whole thing has been about Scientology and its heavy handed dirty tricks. Nothing else. To look for a target outside of Scientology is exactly what Scientology wants as it causes mistakes which they WILL take advantage of. The Ortegas and Rathbuns “feud” seems so pointless and trivial when you realise that NOTHING could compare to the abusive and cruel nature of what Scientology has done, particularly to Monique and Marty.
At this time my suggestion would be that everyone needs to calm the fuck down, refocus and deal with the cause of the suffering inflicted ( It was the Squirrel Busters remember?) and not blame the consequences of that suffering. ( People taking opportunity to be “offended” or to “stir the pot” outside of the cause). Scientologists would look at this and say,” See!!!!! The tech works!!!!!!! Just look at what an ARC break did to our enemies!!!!!!!”
Comments from people on Mr Ortegas blog are just that, comments.
I sincerely wish Marty and Monique all the best in their outcome.
” I think this whole record demonstrates how difficult it is for a lot of people to process facts that don’t agree with their pre-existing narratives. ”
The human condition. Especially for many scientologists who are
very strongly indoctrinated with pre-existing narratives and can lose sight
of fundamental truths.
Thus Socrates was made to drink hemlock.
And that means a lot to me, coming from you. ❤
You have all my respect for what you have done. Amen brother!
Reading all this is tedious at times, opinions based on opinions based on imagination ad nauseum, whew!
I am just over here on the Group W bench trying to take a few pictures and enjoy nature, life is best when its simple!
My very best wishes to you and Monique and I hope one day you make it back to Washington!
Thanks Andy. No better company to be found than on the group W bench.
no Marty, you don’t get what SunnyV says,
What toxic seeds are you talking about?
What does toxic seeds mean?
On a side note, I am glad you decided to answer questions and allow a debate to occur. This is called the Socratic Method, providing you allow debate to happen.
So, what do mean by “toxic seeds”?
The bottom line will be forever and ever no “clear”s:, no “OT’s”. LOL
That’s the big picture.
now there you go, what is group W bench?
I don’t think Tony meant any disrespect. That blog is anti Scientology and not pro Rathbun. If what you are doing and saying is along the lines with Scientology is bad then they are on your side, when it’s not they are not.
Do what makes you happy. Don’t worry about other people talking shit. They always are going to. You have done some horrible things and some wonderful things. Most people will only hold onto the bad things. Live your life and be happy.
Keep in mind that many people want Scientology to fall and they were behind you and your lawsuit and saw it as a way to cause some serious pain especially if you could get COB into deposition. Those people feel let down. They also feel confused. Had you simply stated immediately that you had major disagreement s with your lawyer and you were tired of the fight, I don’t think you would have had as big a backlash and much more support. You don’t owe anyone answers and you dont answer to anyone on this. Hopefully for you this is the end of this chapter and you can move on away from Scientology.
A narrative is a story told in a manner encouraging a certain way of looking at the world by virtue of omissions, added commentary and interpretation.
Marty and Mosey,
In fact you and Mosey have achieved something that nobody have ever achieved before you in court vs the C.O.S.. You got them to admit the crimes they were committing against you and others and you were able to drop the whole without greater damage. Now, you have peace from Dm and his minions, as they are busy battling in other courts and you are no more perceived as the most important enemy, as other new enemies are on the battleground . Also you don’t have to fight in the courts for the next dozen of years but can live your live.
You, Mosey, Mike and others paved the way that the truth will be known and that the media reports about the crimes done by the C.O.S. worldwide.
No one of your critics, neither Ortega have achieved what you did for ten thousands of exscientologists around the world.
You… SIR.. were able to admit your wrong doings and get back your own integrity. 6 Years ago when I knocked on your door, I’d only one purpose in mind; and this was to look into your eyes, see one of the big Scientology guy, and wanting to see if you’re honest and integer. I saw that you have an integer personality and that you mean what you say and have no intention to get power over people or enrich yourself by misusing the fooliness of people.
I don’t think that any of your critics would have been able to endure what you and your wife endured, most of them would have cracked long time ago. They don’t have any real courage to do something except talking. Where are their actions? Nowhere to be seen, they are not attacked by C.O.S….Why not?
One of their biggest argument always has been “follow the money”. Many times I was chuckling when reading it and asked myself why don’t they follow the money on Ortega ?
In retrospect, after six years being out of C:O.S and “Moving On Up a Little Higher” day by day (not an easy path) I realized I found out for myself, but this is not a scientific eval, that most of Scientologists want to believe what is told to them in order they don’t have to think for themselves and even when they left Scientology, they are still looking for leaders that tell them what to believe, and one of their new Guru is Ortega. But also many others were able to think for themselves and find their way and are free people now.
One of the best lesson I found on your Blog was “When on your path you meet the Budha then kill him” (not the exact wording). It’s not easy to think for oneself and take the full responsibility for one’s own feelings and thoughts and suppress the cravings for leadership and putting the responsibility onto another person.
I have great respect for you and Mosey.
As you said we have bigger problems on this planet, then the PR of 10 000 Scientologist dreaming about clearing the planet. Compared to achievements of other groups their actions (if any at all, then just Pr) are mediocre.
Have a good day and enjoy your new won freedoms.
This lies at the heart of behavioural theory. Man cannot completely transcend it, but he can make a conscious decision to constantly doubt the model in his mind of how the world works.
I can only recommend a closer look at Karl Popper’s writings.
I’m very Happy you read Daniel Kahneman. It delivers what Dianetics promised but the truths presented in itare no as easy digestible then Dianetics.
Some times I hated your arguments, some time I loved them. Really I was missing you and have great respect….
Hi Rog. Thank you.
This is very true !
Read Daniel Kahneman and you’ll understand…
Marty, I have not commented on Tony’s blog for over a year. I did however leave a comment on Mike’s blog when someone there asked him what was going on with you two.
The gist of it was that I respected the two of you and that I was not your enemy, however since I had never met either of you, I had no right to claim to be your friend either.
I was raised to believe that it was impolite to share all your innermost feelings with the world. As such I do not share everything that is going on in my life, such as my bowel and eating habits, with even my dearest friends.
The tattle tale culture of scientology mixed with the instant communication of Internet has created people who feel it is their obligation to garner every “fact” that is out there, and people will continue digging and make up their own beliefs to fill the void if you do not fill it yourself.
I have no right to speculate what is going on in your life right now, it is quite frankly, nomfb, and I feel that your family deserves every bit of privacy it can beg, borrow or steal. I wish you peace and hope you can enjoy every moment you spend with your lovely wife and your son.
I lost now 2 hours of important work to because of your Blog. You owe me at least 5 beers…..LOL
Thank you Dr. Faust. I can understand that. I can see where one who had a blog, radio show or column can steer and edit the content. What I was getting mired down on was a personal or subconscious narrative. Is that another way of referring to what one holds as their beliefs or personal truths? Is the word narrative the correct way or term to refer to these? Just looking to clear it up for myself so I can keep up with the postings.
I will. Thanks.
I wonder what Marty’s next topic will be when he gets off of “What Tony did”.
Tony Ortega: Nefarious anti-cult cult leader placing brain implants in unsuspecting followers.
Did someone say “Live and let live”?
Not being a native speaker of the English language, the word “narrative” has only recently gained my attention, after I heard someone use the word “Narrativ” in German, who probably derived it from the English word.
> Is that another way of referring to what one holds
> as their beliefs or personal truths?”
Yes. And this is an apt word, for instance, my personal narrative tells how I see the world, including my beliefs about who is right and wrong.
It is not to be mixed up with “ideology”, which however can be a subset of a narrative.
Thank you Dr. Faust. I think what threw me was my own definition of narrative or narration having to do with something simply read out loud or spoken, as it a presentation or play. It is clear to me now that there is another use and definition of the word when used within a psychological and behavioral context.
Alanzo, would you mind explaining what the post is about? I’m feeling very dense.
I really appreciate your blog very much.
Ortega’s posts seem only reporting… Maybe you don’t want to take them too personal.. But Ortega or not Ortega, I hope your wife will pursue the suit at least to get to a reasonable (legal & financial) settlement, because she was winning upto now. I know all the suits are pain in the neck, but hope she continues with whichever legal advisors she might choose 🙂
Marty, I am just a lurker, but have followed your story for several years and always supported you and Monique. One of the reasons that people are against you is because of responses such as this one to Moneca. Her message was very sweet and positive and tried to explain why people were invested, and your answer to her was brash, unpleasant and hostile, and not just to here, to lots of people with innocent posts. At the end, she even says “take care and be well,” and you still manage to get pissed off at her comment and write an unpleasant one in response. You seem to do this all the time. People leave nice comments, but you are so on the defensive that they seem to piss you off, and you end up writing these nasty posts back. People then think “To hell with him”, or they think you have anger management issues. The reality is that your own hostile posts to people who are on your side push them away and give fodder to others. I’ve seen it for years. How about you read posts on here and don’t assume everyone is attacking you or that they are ignorant morons? You come across as someone who thinks that he is superior to everyone else and someone who can’t control his anger. You can’t blame Ortega for all this (though I agree his post about Monique being insane was disgusting), as you are pushing people away–people who want to be there for you. Don’t assume the worst of everyone and their motives, and try to let people in a bit. Your own mistrustful attitude towards others pushes them away even more than Ortega’s blogs.
Yes I was. I wrote a post about it on my blog.
When it comes to the deceit and criminal abuse of the Church of Scientology, I disagree with Tony Ortega about very little. But when it comes his publicly shaming mothers who have lost their daughters to suicide, and now his use of licensed psychologists to pile on the shame, we disagree a lot.
Mark, the reason they can upset people who have nothing but good to say or think about you and Monique is because they are all negatives and no positives. I and most others always wrote positive, encouraging, understanding thoughts and wishes about you. Peace!
Jeez man! Don’t get all soft on me! 🙂
Tony Ortega’s post today is probably the worst attack on Monique that I have ever seen.
He is getting his unnamed “legal expert” to speculate on the scenario that Monique stole money from Ray Jeffrey’s law firm and the two of them are spitballing about the legal means that Ray has to get this stolen money back from her.
Pretty amazing how low Tony has taken this.
” . . . that MOST of Scn-ists want to believe what is told to them in order they don’t have to think for themselves and EVEN WHEN THEY LEFT SCN, they are still looking for leaders that tell them what to believe . . . ”
WRONG – Idle speculation, a generality and divisive thinking. “Many others . . .think for themselves” is just another generality.
My thoughts too.
People like law enforcement people. Control of the narrative you cede to the imaginations of people like me and Tony.
Tony Ortegas blog is for “Scientology Watchers”. For some reason he is apparently obligated to create an interesting story every day.
A Scientology watcher is someone who likes to get on their laptop with a cup of coffee and be entertained by the trainwreck that is the Church of Scientology. They like to gossip and read bad news. It’s just another cult, as I believe you said at one point. Who gives a shit what they are talking amongst themselves about. I guess if they were talking about me I might get worked up about it. But you did make yourself a public figure, so I guess you have to live with that aspect of it.
When there’s no communication it just makes people come up with a bunch of off the wall ideas and rumors. It makes it more interesting too- a mystery.
I guess you either have to completely cut it off, stop communicating etc, or update people every once in a while. Some form of communication, even “For legal reasons I can’t comment at this time” or whatever. Your PR/spokesperson hat is vacant.
I disagree. He’s just reporting what he knows.
Marty and Monique can respond to his post directly. Let them answer, not you. Both Marty and Monique can set the record straight.
What say you Marty and Monique? Put it in plain english without philosophy, metaphysics, reading between the lines, creating a mystery, etc. ?
Your disagreement is disproven by Ortega’s own published words. So, I guess what I say is it might behoove you to check your prejudices for a spell and open your eyes.
Hi Mark, Although I read Tony Ortega’s site most days, (as a never in), I have to admit he is biased at times, I never bother with the comments as there are far too many, not overly inspiring, and mostly just drivel. I also read Mike Rinder’s blog ……a real gentleman …..and I even read Media Lush’s blog (a bit crude, but great as there are no comments😀, but sometimes he has content that nobody else has). I have purchased all of your books and found Texas Tropics your best so far, so please carry on with your exceptional non-fictional abilities, as you are very talented.
Just finished reading today “Ruthless”. I was ecstatic that it arrived via my Kindle yesterday in New Zealand, as I had heard it was not being released outside of US. Anyway, good on Ron for his courage in writing it, despite the backlash. I hope everyone here will also buy the book.
I, like 99% of all commentators, wish you and your family lots of peace and happiness …..just ignore the rest as they have their own personal issues to deal with.
I completely agree. It’s also a provocation I am guessing. Just awful.
I have to say, you’d make a lousy attorney.
But maybe that is a good thing…..
Tony Ortega married Scientology as his own meal ticket. All things scientology related have been mentioned in his blog. On a slow news day, he may rehash. And that’s fine. But he and texas lawyer laying out all the legal steps that could be taken by Ray Jeffreys to ensure he is not being jipped of a fee is utterly ridiculous and defamatory. Its not news. For one, Ray Jeffrey needs not a hint of advice from anyone on how to deal with the courts or fees. But under this guise, Tony Ortega lays out the steps to be taken to ensure Mosey is not pulling a fast one. He plants seeds of mistrust and suspicion. Very tabloid. Very slimy. Reeks of some sort of payback against Marty and Mosey for dropping their suit. He now is left with other less interesting items to report on. So he takes a last cheap shot at them. What a f*****g jerk.
“I’ve been reading the reactions to your post and I would say that fewer than 10% of the people commenting on it understand any of IT (caps mine)
Common sense says most people are followers and some take it to the extreme. It’s also no mystery that everyone has their own experience, viewpoints and understanding of life.
I don’t see any intellectual cosmic mystery that only you and 10% of others can understand. Frankly, it sounds arrogant.
I have to say that in his post yesterday, Tony is NOT reporting what he knows. Both Tony and his unnamed legal expert are engaging in blatant speculation. And that speculation is mean and nasty to Monique.
As a trained journalist, Tony Ortega does lots of excellent reporting on Scientology. He has in fact changed the game completely when it comes to the exposure of Scientology fraud and abuse. In many ways, he is a life-saver for Ex-Scientologists who have been disconnected from and fair-gamed.
But not always.
It’s important to recognize that. Don’t get so partisan that you defend everything your side does, and become blind to its mistakes.
That’s how Scientology got so abusive with NO ONE checking L Ron Hubbard and David Miscavige when they started to go off the rails.
Singanddanceall – I hit send too soon. I have one more point I want to make.
While Tony Ortega has been great for people who have been fair-gamed by Scientology, he hasn’t been great for all of them.
Monique has not experienced the worst of Fair Game, that would probably go to Gerry Armstrong and others when the “Young Turks” were in their prime.
But the fair game that Monique has suffered from Scientology is certainly ranked very high. And look at how Tony Ortega is treating her for firing her attorneys and dropping her lawsuit.
If you really look at it, it is really very disgusting.
Please do look at it.
It needs to be seen.
I read Tony’s blog, I don’t comment though because I will agree that 99% of the posters are insane.
However, I am really curious as to why this all happened when it did seem you had scientology on the ropes, and could have potentially put a very big hurt on them.
Hummmm I was thinking I have done really good these last few years learning not to judge.
Well Sunny, don’t take this all personally 🙂
My point was how little we understand of each other on the Internet.
Sorry if I seemed arrogant.
FWIW, After a defective response was filed by one of my lawyers in RTC vs Lerma… I cut the lot of them free…. and went pro-se in order to get certain facts that seemed to have been intentionally overlooked, and were never mentioned into that record…
I don’t trust “lawyers” -or- Judges any more than I might trust a man in general. The nitwits fawning about Ortega’s coolness – more likely than not, not ONE of them has looked down the double barrel shotgun of scientology litigation… Tony’s supposed lawyer/partner/adviser has never tried a case… the blind leading the blind…. for a $3 subscription?
Sometimes I wish there were like buttons on your blog 🙂
Letting go – laughter! – Same train of thought – Alonzo occasionaly overstates his case, but you gotta admit he puts himself out there as in the above exchange and imo many of his blog topics provide very unique insights. 🙂
I also think that this “Texas lawyer” poster is not acting honourably and should be emailed. He should only comment on reported filings re anything- not add to hurtful gossip and speculation
Can someone not speak to Ortega to resolve this ? The rathbuns have been through way too much already
With all of this conflict, in some wierd way Scientology wins. There has to be a way for 2 parties to resolve this. Regarding comments posted on Ortega’s website I would just ignore that bullshit
Yes, and Alanzo, you were the first I saw use the word ‘indoctrination’ and it was in a comment to me. I looked it up, saw how it did fit and life has never been the same. Glad your friend is better 🙂
Deleted. Ortega has run a smear campaign for three months. I noted the effect and some of his tactics. I’m not opening it up for more of his filth in this forum. If you think that is cool, head over to the bunker and have a ball. Moderator
Notwithstanding the service Ortega has provided, I was amazed at how people speak to each other when I first started reading that blog. The most vile, and most verbally abusive are some of the more active and charismatic never-ins.
Hey Virginia….Off topic in that I just wanted to say that over the past few months I have found the research by you and your hubby to be very fascinating and intriguing. Especially the documentation showing Hubbard’s connection to British Intelligence.
What a lot of work you two have done! Your website is a treasure trove of information. Very intriguing.
Oh and Hey Arnie! If anyone knows what battling the cult in the courts is all about it’s you.
Either you didn’t read my post or you didn’t understand it.
The word generality is a red flag for Scientologists and when they see one they just react in crazy ways and loose their wins….
I’m fairly new to blogging and have found out that internet communication, written words on a “page”, has limitations over face to face interaction. There are often chances for misinterpretation.
As an example last week I was stewing over an idea I had that a customer was going to stiff me on money he owed me. The next day I spoke with him in person and in two minutes we understood each others viewpoints and worked it out and shook hands.
P.S. I know you’re not arrogant Alonzo – laughter – Otherwise you would not have tolerated my dopey comments on your blog way back when!
You do realize that you are also creating a mindset here?
I posted this today as an answer to Dale. However, I had a technical hiccup doing it so it may not have gone through. If this is a double post I apologize.
I’ve glanced through the comments made here and there is not very much I can add. However I am reminded of the “enturbulation.org”-days from 2008 to maybe 2011. That was the predecessor to the current whyweprotest.net, and it was an example of the Anonymous-culture.
Let me be clear that I don’t speak for all of Anonymous. I can only give my own opinion.
Anonymous has a saying that it isn’t nice. Well, that’s true. In the beginning of the Anonymous protests a lot of channers (google it) posted on enturbulation.org. (I do not consider myself to be a channer.) Once or twice every month there would be a new poster over there who said they were an ex-scientologist. Almost every time these people were advised to go to other boards such as ESMB as the mood towards exes over there was far more friendly. Some of them didn’t take that advice and, well, that didn’t always end well. This was/is partly because channers were VERY suspicious of these people, thinking (and saying) they might be OSA. And it is partly because of the culture in Anonymous where it is perfectly normal to troll one another and what not. I started posting there in 2008 and also got trolled. Let’s just say it took me a little time to get used to that. 🙂
Most of the channers have moved on after one or two years protesting COS. WWP now is not the same as enturbulation.org then. A board like ESMB has also changed: they are now not as patient with pro-scientology opinions as they were back then. However also other boards pro-scientology (outside of the COS) are around. Terril Park’s is one example, and there are more.
Tony Ortega started his blog a few years ago, and I guess most of the people posting there are never-ins, vehemently against COS fraud and abuse. It may well be that a small part of the anon culture has found its place there.
I think this diversity in boards and blogs is a good thing. Anyone of us can choose the board or blog community that suits best. Nothing wrong with that.
Laughter! Ok Roger, you did indicate that “most” (90% ?) of ex scn-ists are looking for leaders or gurus. I disagree. I think “most” ex scn-ists who bother to blog have cleared their heads and contribute worthwhile viewpoints and opinions. This topic highlights the “few” who can’t or don’t think for themselves and the danger therein. Also, I wonder how many of the negative comments come from OSA and other trolls.
Everything else you said above to Marty and Monique was beautifully written and I agree with you and admire you much for what you said.
Maybe it’s more of a stalemate. DM and CoS escaped legal prosecution, but the abuses have once more been made public, in this case harrassment and intimidation of a citizen who is only associated with scn by marriage.
Excellent Alanzo – Your insight is deep. You have clearly explained your viewpoint while giving credit where credit is due.
These are interesting details, and the last paragraph is quite true. Many thanks for taking the time to respond.
Thanks LS – we’re happy to hear that you’re finding some things of interest to you.
Neither Tony nor Texas Lawyer were giving Ray Jeffreys advice. I don’t know where you pulled that from.
I can guess, but I’m to polite to write it.
“I realized I found out for myself, but this is not a scientific eval”
“The Bunker: If you were Ray Jeffrey, what would you do if you suspected that there’s a secret deal between the Rathbuns and Scientology?
TexasLawyer: If I was concerned about a possible secret settlement on a contingent fee engagement — which has never, ever been something I was worried about in my legal career — I would file a motion with the trial court to require my ex-clients to produce their banking records, and also require the opposing party to do the same. And if they produce those records and they profess to be clear, I would ask the court to make them put it in writing and under oath that no money has changed hands, with a perpetual waiver of limitations so I can sue the hell out of both sides if anyone is lying about it. All that may even require a separate lawsuit, but my guess is that the trial court has enough jurisdiction to straighten this stuff out.”
Just as an aside, in October of last year I was participating on Marty’s “Middle Path” topic. I mentioned to Alanzo on his blog that I had quoted him on something on Marty’s blog.
Alanzo said something to the effect of “You might want to be careful about mentioning me over there.” I replied “Don’t worry. I’m stable and I can take a hit.” Laughter! It seems that Alanzo and Marty might have occasionaly had a few differences in the past, but I’m a newbie to the scene so I don’t know any details – laughter.
Absent any insider information as to the how and why this particular court case is not to go forward, the only thing one can discern from Mr. Rathbun’s writings so far is:
His unwavering loyalty to his wife. Nothing more, nothing less.
We will have to respect that.
Happy Mother’s Day Monique.
Dealing in a balanced way to false judgement is also a very effective way of nullifying our own actions of causing harm to others when we caused false judgement and harm to occur.
When negative emotions surface: anger, desire for revenge etc, that is the time to go to that place of calmness.
Of course it doesn’t mean being a spineless pussy and allowing others to abuse. That would be an omission.
All experience is self generated. What ever happens to us and how we respond to is created by us.
The gauntlet is in reality a purifying process intended to neutralize our own past bad actions, instruct us in the laws of decency and free us from those qualities we are fighting in others.
If we have been instrumental in causing harm unjustly in others, we must pay the piper by experiencing our causation.
This is not in essence punishment. This in essence is learning and instruction; very benevolent. But it’s benevolence is only cognized with the right receptive attitude of a student.
If this law is fought, suffering is evident. If this law is worked with, purification and liberation is the outcome.
Not slimy, not a payback or a cheap shot in my opinion. It supports Ortega’s position that there has been no settlement, because the consequences of such are a significant risk to the parties involved. What you see as tabloid, I see as evidence. Until that post, I could not understand why he and texas lawyer continued to assert that no settlement had occurred. That’s news, not defamation.
And I will not let up either untill these things are done.
we see with different eyes. That’s all I can say.
I follow Tony’s blog every once and a while and happened to read the update regarding the lawsuit. In my opinion i thought the article was pretty objective. Am i missing something?
Marty, I must have missed the negative comments. But I only make a cursory glance at anonymous comments on blogs. There was confusion for sure, but I thought it was more about people rooting for your wife to win and then being disappointed. I didn’t see that Ortega’s coverage was much different than your own postings about Debbie’s settlement and disappearance to an overseas location. My immediate guess was that you guys never thought it would go on and on like this and what should have been a simple restraining order, resulting in having to make repeated appearances in court with every decision appealed multiple times. What Scientology subjected you and your wife to was so clearly indefensible and clearly a well-financed campaign of systematic harassment. I believed that the Court really failed you in allowing the court case to become yet another way to harass your wife. I don’t understand why the Court dragged its heels and allowed the harassment to continue in a new form. I could understand why someone would want to end it and not devote another minute to an unending fight with Scientology. This what I posted at the time.
I don’t know you, your wife or Tony or the other posters on the various blogs. But I do know what can happen on blogs. As long as people are allowed to post anonymously, there will be crackpots that say offensive things – some do it on purpose in an effort to rile people up. It’s a game to them. It can get personal, but you can’t let it get to you.
That answer (from TX Lawyer) was not advice for Ray Jeffreys.
I’m sure Ray Jeffreys knows what to do in those situations.
My point…..TXL was not ‘advising’ Jeffreys with that comment. He was merely responding to a question put to him by Tony.
I presume Tony asked that question because in order to find out what legal recourse an attorney has when the suspect a client went settled behind their back.
That is not to say Tony, TXL or Jeffreys believe that to be the case. It was to inform readers that there is a way for attorneys to protect themselves in those situations.
If you think Ray Jeffreys did not already know the answer to that question, then there will be no convincing you otherwise.
Like Scientology, the Bunker has its own bubble of believers. I have seen Marty attacked over and over on his own blog over the years. I can see it because he publishes them. And I can see the faults the man has or had. Unlike Ortega, who seems to have arrived in some followers eyes at the same status he attributed to Hubbard yesterday, as a God among men. Scoot down the pew a little bit so I can join you to kneel and pray. I wish I could refrain from sarcasm, but my failings are much greater than Marty’s. Look, Ortega took a cheap shot. He is not perfect. I called it out. End of story.
“As a trained journalist, Tony Ortega…” Alanzo, Tony is NOT a trained journalist. He got a degree in English. I know people with real J School degrees from top J Schools. I can tell you, Tony is NOT a journalist. Not by many light years. The crap he has posted about this case is evidence enough to show that.
I did not know that, TTTT.
Thanks for that information.
Ryan Kelly –
“My immediate guess was that you guys never thought it would go on and on like this and what should have been a simple restraining order, resulting in having to make repeated appearances in court with every decision appealed multiple times. What Scientology subjected you and your wife to was so clearly indefensible and clearly a well-financed campaign of systematic harassment. I believed that the Court really failed you in allowing the court case to become yet another way to harass your wife. I don’t understand why the Court dragged its heels and allowed the harassment to continue in a new form. I could understand why someone would want to end it and not devote another minute to an unending fight with Scientology. ”
I think you make a great point which has been totally missed by Tony Ortega and his anonymous, unnamed “legal expert”, TexasLawyer. Missed by a mile and a half.
From my understanding, Marty has a lot of experience with how Church lawyers operate. I think he very well could have predicted this to his legal team and they did not take his advice. If this is the case, I really have to hand it to Marty, for how restrained he’s been in what he publishes to his blog. If you look at this case from the perspective that you just laid out, I do not know if I could have kept my mouth shut like Marty must have for so long.
I’m speculating now, but jesus tapdancing chee-rist, that must have been hard.
Really. Think of all those anonymous people over at the Underground Bunker in Tony’s “commenting community” saying all those cruel things about Monique. They probably believe that their opinions are their own, and not the opinions of Tony Ortega and his anonymous legal expert. (I wonder why he wishes to remain anonymous, anyway? And while he remains anonymous, we really can’t know if he is really a legal expert at all, can we?)
I think way too many people have missed what you have written so clearly here, Ryan. Thanks for writing it.
I like speculating, I’m sorry.
I don’t know if anyone has said this:
Inside information that would lead one to safely assume that a monetary award would be difficult to collect (something happening to the Church and/or Miscavige soon).
The objectives of the lawsuit will occur before the lawsuit concludes, so it would be a waste of time. It will happen from other actions, in other words.
Alanzo, I don’t know your history with Ortega, but most of the comments about Monique on his site have been supportive and positive. Why take that away from her? I don’t remember anyone posting negative comments. Her public image is a strong, smart, and pragmatic woman. She must deeply love Marty to share the burden of being constantly attacked by CoS and Miscavige.
I hope Monique is able to see the deep respect people have for her, whether they are never-ins or ex-scions. How is it helpful to her cause (it is her lawsuit) to focus on the comments that generally are from people who are confused by the outcome? Even most of those people want the best for her. We may not know what is the best outcome for the Rathbun family, that is their decision, but trying to focus on a few dumb words Ortega has used in describing Monique’s choices is counterproductive.
After throwing darts in every direction, the bumbling duo of Tony Ortega and his anonymous sidekick “TexasLawyer”, continue their speculation even after the last papers have been filed in the Monique Rathbun legal case, leaving their “commenting community” just as vengeful and confused as they were before.
Obviously, Monique and Mark Rathbun have not done enough to expose and de-fang Scientology for Tony Ortega to earn the benefit of his doubt. Perhaps no one ever could.
Let that be a lesson for anyone who ever tries: If you are a prominent enough critic of the Church of Scientology, your fellow critics will soon start whispering Scientology’s own dead-agent pack against you, and your reputation will be destroyed by the very people who used to be your friends.
I’ve personally seen it done to every Scientology critic from Gerry Armstrong to Keith Henson to Arnie Lerma to Dennis Ehrlich to Joe Lynn. And to many more.
Mark Rathbun, and his wife Monique, have arguably done as much or more to expose Scientology’s fair game than any other critic in the history of Scientology criticism.
For Scientology, the take-down and isolation of the critic must be complete. The critic himself must be discredited fully and completely so that no one ever again listens to a word he has to say, nor ever again provide him any trust, resources or help. And this must be accomplished by his fellow critics themselves.
It is amazing how easy it has been over the decades for Scientology to accomplish this.
Maybe they don’t even have to.
Alonzo you are a gem. Utter clarity and conviction.
Just the other day – I was imagining giving a TED talk — remember, they are carefully crafted 18 minutes intended to inspire, inform etc
Anyone who knows me, knows that 18 minutes I’m just warming up 🙂 nevertheless I worked hard to narrow the focus.
I came away with the following as a premise of sorts or underlying theme:
“People do not learn from other people’s mistakes or well intentioned advise, not even our siblings are able to learn from seeing our obviously ill-thought actions.
This begs the question — WHY NOT?
Because, we human beings we are wired to have strong EGOs (aiding our survival) and without a life time of hard work at observing and dismantling that same ego and transforming it into ego-less-ness — the EGO will be the very thing that precludes learning from others and growth. (this transformation can occur at any chronological age)
Wisdom traditions espouse this from the get-go. Yet we in our ever clinging desire try to somehow NOT fit into this age-old wisdom with the proverbial and say — yes, but …”
I’ll let ya’ll know if I ever DO that TED talk 🙂
Regarding SunnyV’s comment. Unless I was reading it wrong, there WAS some self examination. I mean really! If it’s your intention to create and foster an “us against them,” their evil blog against my “good” blog, you are certainly privileged to do so. But when looking at any situation, you will have positive and negative comments. That’s the cost of public discourse.
Marty, Am I being censored? Just curious. Nothing that has happened will ever take away the respect we have for Monique and the grace she has shown during these difficult years.
No. I tend not to post comments that enter falsehoods stated as fact.
I love discussions which get into “ego”. I believe the church used 2 carrots in their dissemination. One is the ruin, the other is feeding the ego, not dissolving it. All this hype about OT abilities, becoming a powerful Being, a Big Being, etc, all fuels an ego. Or certainly could. L Ron Hubbard was well aware of the various wisdom traditions and borrowed from them as he saw fit. But dissolving one ego was not something he mastered himself or saw as a good sales pitch,
Well said, Alanzo.
Sometimes people who are so against some cult are so completely obsessed by it that they create their own cult dedicated to smashing it. And they act like a cult, and do cult-like things.
Tony Ortega commented on his blog today that
“If the Rathbuns were simply tired of the case, they could have asked Ray Jeffrey to negotiate a settlement so they and the attorneys could have walked away with millions. They were in a strong position after the appellate win, and TexasLawyer has indicated that there was a good chance that their position was going to get even stronger over the next year. Instead, the Rathbuns fired the lawyers and walked away with nothing.”
Could you have “walked away with millions“?
Is this true, Marty?
Tony said it was a fact.
I would think that a settlement in a harassment case would not be worth “millions” unless you could show damages of “millions” from the harassment.
Wasn’t it the whole problem that a harassment case is not worth millions? Wasn’t it the problem that the pay out was never going to be able to be worth years and years of work from a legal team, and that was the exact purpose for the Church’s legal delaying tactics?
If this is true, the result seems very simple to me.
Which then begs the question: Why can’t Tony Ortega, and his unnamed legal sidekick, see this?
That is actually the “bizarre” and weirdly illogical thing.
If this is true.
Tony did ask this:
“We sent messages to Monique Rathbun and her husband, former high-ranking Scientology executive Mark “Marty” Rathbun,” asking for some clarification on that line. We’ll let you know if they respond.”
“I would think that a settlement in a harassment case would not be worth “millions” unless you could show damages of “millions” from the harassment.”
Here are the top 10 from 2012:
Mercy General Hospital (Sacramento, CA) will pay $168 million in a sexual harassment lawsuit judgment.
ArcelorMittal (Buffalo, NY) will pay $25 million in a race discrimination lawsuit judgment.
Dr Pepper Snapple Group (Chicago, IL) will pay $18.3 million in an age discrimination lawsuit judgment.
YRC/Yellow Transportation (Chicago Ridge, IL) will pay $11 million to settle an EEOC race harassment and discrimination lawsuit.
Tesoro Refining and Marketing Company (Los Angeles, CA) will pay $8.5 million in a disability discrimination lawsuit judgment.
Cook County (Chicago, IL) will pay $7.6 million in a race discrimination lawsuit judgment.
Lennox Industries (Richardson, TX) will pay $6.2 million to settle an age discrimination lawsuit.
Aaron’s Inc. (Fairview Heights, IL) will pay $6 million to settle a sexual harassment lawsuit.
Sears (Sacramento, CA) will pay $5.2 million in a race discrimination lawsuit judgment.
AT&T (Kansas City, MO) will pay $5 million in a religious discrimination lawsuit judgment.
so, who is being hypocritical, and promoting censorship? I’m confused by the title, the content, and actual practice. As a side, the current monetary rewards in Erin Andrews and “Hulk” Hogan cases seem to indicate anything is possible regarding damages.
You certainly did some busy research. It would seem a joust tournament is in order to resolve the matter.
Hey Marty – Above in your May 3rd reply to Alanzo you say: “The books noted above, combined with my frustrating experience of trying to find and share a middle path with people clinging to narratives however flawed, influenced me turning to fiction to share whatever I might have to share.”
IMO your novel does this very well. The joys, mysteries and yes, even sorrows, of the spiritual quest are well spoken in Texas Tropics and I’m only part way through. You have a knack for presenting philosophical and metaphysical concepts in an interesting and entertaining way. Here’s an excerpt I like which is not a spoiler:
“I wondered whether I was losing my mind. First, I was following telepathic messages from a dolphin. Then I risked my life walking through a pack of wolves only to watch some old man talking to fish and giving philosophy lessons. I could not think of a single person I knew who would believe a bit of today’s story.”
I think reading and participating on your blog has some parallels to the above, at least for me – laughter!
P.S. You too on your blog, Alanzo!
You gotta love him
America has never had such a cool first lady ever since Elonor Roosevelt.
Really? Donald Trump ?
Seek the approval of others and you become their prisoner.
Marty you have found bliss
Alanzo….you don’t always have to show what your damages are worth. This was not a medical malpractice suit, this was a harassment suit. Of course it could have been worth millions.
It could have also been worth nothing.
Tony never said it was a FACT.
He said the case COULD have been worth millions.
As you can see from Robert Hanna’s post, yes, the potential could have been in the millions.
Do you really think any attorney would have taken this on and put in hundreds of hours of non-billable work if the case was not worth the money?
As much as everyone wanted to see justice prevail, the law is a business.
Kind of like the ‘church’ of scientology.
Marty, have you returned to the Independent church of Scientology? Did you ever leave? Just wanted to know what direction you are headed. I am still curious as to what falsehoods I have stated. An open heart is a learning heart. Best, Ann
Hi Chee Chalker –
This is what Tony wrote on his blog in the comments section of his May 12th post:
Tony Ortega wrote:
His comment was enthusiastically upvoted 79 times by your fellow Bunkerites – including by you.
Don’t you remember that he wrote that these were “basic facts”?
Sorry Chee. Tony Ortega is presenting all of the above as “basic facts”, and NOT as speculation. And yet they are almost all his speculation.
Tony Ortega’s views on Scientology are not always right, and on some things they are just wrong.
For instance, this:
“If the Rathbuns were simply tired of the case, they had a legal team that was actually doing all the work, was on a winning streak, and was costing the Rathbuns nothing.”
Being in a court case against Scientology for 3 years costs the Rathbuns NOTHING? This is a blinded, biased statement by a guy for whom it is seemingly impossible to walk in another person’s shoes.
And the more I move away from this whole Far and Against Scientology mess, the more I see that Tony’s views are certainly not the most reasonable views to have in Scientology. And adopting Tony Ortega’s views on Scientology, either knowingly or unknowingly, is to have your head filled with cognitive distortions.
The problem for me is that way too many of Tony’s readers just swallow what he writes without enough critical analysis or discussion. I know that it is not as bad as what goes on in Scientology, but it is so similar to what goes on in Scientology that it makes me scream inside of my own head.
And when things get really cruel over there in your “commenting community” as they did against Cathy Tweed and Marty & Monique Rathbun?
Then there may as well be no differences to what went on in Scientology.
CORRECTION: And the more I move away from this whole Far and Against Scientology mess, the more I see that Tony’s views are certainly not the most reasonable views to have in Scientology.
SHOULD READ: And the more I move away from this whole Far and Against Scientology mess, the more I see that Tony’s views are certainly not the most reasonable views to have ON Scientology.
Who are you?
Hubbard may have been aware of the various traditions, but he apparently didn’t have a full grasp of the significance of ego or he would have taken some very different courses of action – and wouldn’t have ended up the way he did. For this reason, I think he should be judged with compassion, if anything. JMO
It’s clear you do not understand the legal process/what happens in a trial.
Please, enlighten us with SPECIFIC EXAMPLES of how the court ‘dragged it’s heels’
As Marty well knows (as he previously orchestrated delay tactics for the Co$) trials can last YEARS (while waiting for appellate decisions, etc)
But you seem to know more than a practicing Texas Appellate attorney and me (never a litigator, but with lots of experience)
Chee Chalker –
Ryan Kelly’s post was the one which used the term describing how the court “dragged its heels”.
If you read the documents filed by the named litigant in the case, Monique Rathbun, instead of reading the spitball speculations of an anonymous sidekick to Tony Ortega, then you would understand why I made the point I made about Ryan’s comment: It points to the reason Monique took the actions she took with her legal team, and dropped her case.
Since it has been ruled by the Texas Supreme court that the Church of Scientology does NOT have a protected first amendment right to harass the Rathbuns, the reason for the lawsuit has been achieved.
Tony Ortega, from his Porch of Infinity located on the Fringes of the Internet, has proclaimed that he “knows what happened”. He has also stated that I, Alanzo, am being used to present a false case by Marty. And yet he continues to not say what he knows. And he also continues to speculate and call his speculation “basic facts”. And his Bunkerites continue to swallow his speculations without inspection and not see the simple answers that have been presented by Monique – the person who sued Scientology herself.
You are right. I am no lawyer. But right now, what happened in Monique’s lawsuit seems pretty simple and clear to me.
But maybe I’m wrong. I’ll await the pronouncements from Tony Ortega and his anonymous sidekick, while standing on their Porch of Infinity in the Underground Bunker, before I scream “TOLD YA!!“.
It’s hard. But I can wait.
All eyes are on Tony Ortega now to tell “what he knows”.
And if he doesn’t ever tell “what he knows”? Will the Bunkerites rationalize it all away like a group who’s doomsday prediction dates have come and gone?
This should be interesting to watch.
“Since it has been ruled by the Texas Supreme court…” No, nothing has been ruled by the Texas Supreme Court. Scientology asked the Supreme Court to rule, filing a lengthy brief, and that Court asked Monique to file a response, but since Monique had fired all her lawyers and was not prepared to draft a legal brief pro se, she aborted the case.
My mistake, Bob.
It was the Texas Court of Appeals who ruled that.
In Tony Ortega’s own words on May 4, 2016:
I second that
And I love and support you for that.
Oh you perfect master of puppets
I bow deeply to you
You know why you rascal
Marty why did you delete from your blog the 31 factors ? This was the truth about Miscavige.
You helped me to go free from the church of Miscavige. What are you doing now?
Alonzo I think I love you!
I would spit but my mouth is too dry and Ortega isn’t worth drumming up more. Hugs to you both. I stay away from the Bunker gossip-fest – nothing to be found there but poison. So sorry you’ve been singled out. Godspeed x