Arrogance and Ignorance

The following passage is taken from the novel Texas Tropics.

When I arrived Amerigo was as relaxed and content as the last time I interrupted his little fisherman’s paradise.  As I pulled Lucille ashore, Amerigo grabbed my pole and turned to his shrimp bucket to bait up my line. He handed back the pole.  He looked at me knowingly and said, “You’ve been busy, no?”

I took the invitation to fill him in on my adventures. Amerigo did not show the kind of surprise or shock or wonderment you would expect any other human to exhibit in reaction to my story. When I finished, his only comment seemed to come randomly out of the blue, “Your father is wise beyond his years.”

I wanted to say, ‘What about me almost getting killed? What about me standing up to Ramos?  What about me being set up like a bowling pin? What about me standing trial with my life in the balance?’  Instead, the thing he found most interesting was the last thing I cared about at the moment. I took a deep breath. I looked out across the cove.  I let my emotions settle and then calmly asked, “Oh, you mean teaching me about Zapata?”

Amerigo smiled and shook his head in the negative.

“Then what?”, I asked.

Amerigo said, “He has discovered the secret of arrogance and ignorance.”

“What do you mean?”, I asked.

“Well, you asked him what drove him to do what you have told me most people characterize as evil, right?”, he asked.


“And his answer was?”

“He was too proud and too stupid”, I said. “Right, okay, too arrogant and too ignorant. And that – well, it does resonate with me.”

“Why?”, he asked.

“Because you can do something with it”, I said. “If he says instead, ‘it was evil’ it is like saying ‘I am evil.’  Where does that lead?”

He asked, “Where do you think?”

I thought out loud, “Isolation, imprisonment…  Hell, I don’t know. It leads to labeling and distancing so you don’t catch any of that disease called ‘evil.’”

“Out of sight and out of mind?”, he asked.

“Maybe out of sight – which, I guess, is ignorance itself…and – come to think of it, arrogance too.  But, I don’t think entirely out of mind.”

Amerigo’s seemed pleased with my working it over.  He continued fishing, his invitation for me to think it through some more.  And I did.

“Ok, Amerigo”, I said.  “So, now I am thinking about judgment – like we talked about last time.  When you judge, you use convenient labels like ‘evil’, hoping to put something or someone you don’t like out of sight and out of mind – or, at least, waaay over there.”  I motioned toward the mainland with my hand for emphasis.

Amerigo smiled.  Then he carried on fishing.

A few minutes later I added, “But the act of judging itself is an exercise in arrogance and ignorance.”

“How so?”, he asked.

“Arrogance…the act of judging gives one a feeling of superiority to whatever, or whoever, is being judged.”

“And ignorance?”, he asked.

“Judging, puts it out of sight”, I said. “Makes it no longer worthy of inspection or consideration.  One makes oneself ignorant.”

Amerigo winked at me.  And in the micro second it took his eyelid to shut and open again it all came to me.  I said, “And all this opens the door to resolution.”

“Of what?”, he asked.

“The vicious circle”, I said. “It is a dwindling process toward, well – really…evil, I guess.  The more ignorance we demonstrate, the more arrogance we produce. The more arrogant we become, the more ignorant too. Finally, the arrogance is so great we feel just fine sitting in judgment of those we consider lesser than ourselves.  And the ignorance is so great we resort to labeling, stereotyping and condemning so that we don’t need to exercise intelligence.  We are unaware of, and – so, we don’t care about the consequences of our judgment.  You know, the consequences to those we judge. “

Amerigo was looking at me with interest.

I said, “And so, judgment tends to create evil…out of arrogance and ignorance.  Do you see, it all becomes a self-feeding circle?”

“Yes”, he said. “And so, the resolution you spoke of?”

“Well, what is the reverse activity of exercising arrogance and ignorance?”, I asked.

Amerigo rolled his eyes and gave an impish smile, indicating he was going to consider the question.  I was pleased. I thought maybe I had earned enough respect to ask deep questions of him and have him answer me for a change.

“Humility and curiosity?”, he asked.

“Right”, I said. “I had the concept but I couldn’t find the words.  But, you are right on the money. And so when we feel compelled to judge, I mean in the judgmental sense – when we feel the compulsion arise to judge, label and reject…instead, maybe we hold off for a moment.  Maybe we gather our wits.  Maybe we exercise a little humility and a little curiosity.”

101 responses to “Arrogance and Ignorance

  1. The more I think I know, the more I know I don’t know. Wishing all the best for you and the family. May the shimmer be with you. Hugs.

  2. I loved this book. I think this was my favorite passage. I had a definite, life changing realization here.

  3. christianscientology

    Sounds like the Over-Motivator sequence to me!

  4. Humility and curiosity-Bingo!!!

  5. Is that the message to Tony Ortega and TexasLaywer: ‘a little humility and a little curiosity’?

  6. George Layton

    All of the Best Hero’s in hubbards books were redheads.

  7. Loved this Marty. Thanks. I had the same ideas but couldn’t put it into words. Nothing beats waiting out that temptation to open one’s mouth and make a bad situation for oneself. 🙂

  8. Hi Mark,

    I was wondering if that was really you that posted this on Reddit this morning. I’m trying to figure out if that’s a “real” account or someone else.

    Whether you did or did not, you’re always welcome to post in our sub – any viewpoint is welcome.

  9. Judgment

    1. : an opinion or decision that is based on careful thought

    2. : the act or process of forming an opinion or making a decision after careful thought : the act of judging something or someone

    3. : the ability to make good decisions about what should be done

    There is not only nothing wrong with judgement, it is a necessary function.

    But you always have to keep in mind that there is a right way and wrong way to do almost everything.

    It is necessary to continuously judge everything.

    There is good judgement, poor judgement, stupid judgement, bad judgement and perverted judgement.

    But, like is written in the bible, when you judge you have to judge righteously.

    Judgement is part of, or related to the function of control.

    And as LRH said, those who think that control is bad, should just try and not control their car.

    Judgement is the same.

    Everything in a person’s universe has to be under his judgement and control at all times, including one’s mouth.

    You always have to judge and control where you are going and what you are doing.

    You always have to judge people and situations, at least to protect yourself.

    A person who does not judge (judge righteously) is a fool.

    Judgement is related to, or part of evaluation, discretion and discernment.

    A person who did not judge and control in the right way would soon be dead.

    Arrogance is aloof conceit.
    -having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one’s own importance or abilities.

    Ignorance by definition is simply a lack of knowledge.

    That leads to being cynical:

    A cynic is someone who has an aversion for truth.

    Cynic: : a person who has negative opinions about other people and about the things people do; especially : a person who believes that people are selfish and are only interested in helping themselves.

    capitalized : 1. CYNIC: an adherent of an ancient Greek school of philosophers who held the view that virtue is the only good and that its essence lies in self-control and independence

    2. : a faultfinding captious critic; especially : one who believes that human conduct is motivated wholly by self-interest.


  10. I always have so much to learn from so many sources.

    Carl Rogers on Person-Centered Therapy:

  11. I am a regular at the Bunker. As a collective group we all hold responsibility to self-moderate the commenting community there. In the recent period of time some nastiness was unleashed, and was tolerated by the majority. I see people here talking about all the supportive comments on the Bunker. These, while true, are irrelevant to the discussion that Mark Rathbun has raised (and explained over and over).
    I regret that I did not speak up to quell the nasty bullying tide, and even rode the wave. I think Tony should have been more active in shutting down the nastiness, but that is his issue, not mine. Tony talks about how he does not allow the bullying of women on his site, but in this case he did allow the bullying comments about Monique.
    I will speak up in the future on the Bunker, and I apologize for our behavior in allowing, encouraging, or tolerating the bullying of you and Monique.

  12. Yes, Dio.
    To render and impose judgement, and to exercise judgement are two very different things.

  13. Great on the fiction, Marty, but I really liked your non-fiction too and think you should continue with that as well. For example, you commented one time that you might write about the influence of Crowley on Hubbard. I think you would have a ready public for such a book and that it would enlarge your current reading audience. .

  14. Letting go

    I’m curious and humble – when I am alone and have no one to witness my mistakes. In the context of other people, I tend to be arrogant and ignorant. I know this, but don’t know how to change it. At the moment, I believe I was rooted in the notion of eternally stable states of being in a world of impermanence and constant change.

    My inner life feels like a waggon with all the wheels being of different sizes. I can pat myself on the back for being curious and then quickly become defensive if I think my accuracy, rightness, is being questioned. The past carries a lot of strange hurt that doesn’t seem to make any sense, but does appear to drive the wheels of that crooked waggon.

    I don’t think it’s as simple or easily resolved as ‘just do the opposite’.

  15. Truth Be Told

    “when we feel the compulsion arise to judge, label and reject…instead, maybe we hold off for a moment. Maybe we gather our wits. Maybe we exercise a little humility and a little curiosity.”

    Depends on the situation. Sometimes a good idea, sometimes a total waste of time. Ironically, it takes sound judgment to know when do do either.

  16. kurt hubbard-beale

    Hi Marty. Good insight and all from a pretty balanced point of view. Balance in as much as we can apply balance to, where possible of course. You write well and descriptively. I grew up in the S.O as I perhaps mentioned previously. And it was certainly hard for everyone concerned. But I’m optimistic by nature. As we must surely be to get through the life we are given here. I had some issues with (what after Scientology?) as I’m aware many – even most of those that exit are inevitably left with. I guess that if something is presented as ‘the solution’ but also learned, drilled and continuously maintained as such, it almost cannot be anything else for the individuals adhering to ‘their factual knowledge’. There may be a bit if a trick-in-the-tail so to speak, in the concept/meaning and repeatition of ‘what is true for you is true for you’ etc.Of course when I sat up and said that I honestly had many disagreements, I was sent to ethics repeatedly. It was for me dictatorial to the degree that having disagreements made certain things ‘not so true for me’. The simple injustice for anyone in this trap likewise was that you must be reprogrammed to come BACK round to the written word, whether it was best on all dynamics or otherwise. Contradictions and hypocrites gathered up to the point where I had to make an ethical decision for my own future existence. And one Incidentally that I myself could and would be the owner of. There’s good in Scientology as we I’m sure can all concede. But there’s room for critical thinking and knowledgeable acceptance therein. I’m a fan. Keep it going dude.  Best wishes as always, Kurt Hubbard-Beale and family Samui Thailand.Incidentally, I build and sell beautiful villas here for the tourists that love it so much – they want to stay. Come out here sometime, you’ll have an amazing holiday and I’m good for my word I’ll pick you up at the airport. 0911610868 Kurt’s Thai mobile Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

  17. Lately the blog-o-shere just keeps getting more out of touch IMO — except, again, IMO Mark’s blog that has stayed true to it’s masthead “Moving on Up a Little Higher” since it’s inception in 2009.

    Again — my opinion.

    I’m going to make probably an unpopular comment. ” ‘Ruthless’ has “vaulted” to the top of amazon’s ebook list in spite of the hate videos and statements against Ron M. Sr”.

    Well — so did Leah’s book — right to the top of the NYTimes best seller list — and then disappeared pretty quickly.

    It’s LONGEVITY on the NY TIMES best seller list or Amazon for that matter — not a flash of lightning that makes for a book — fiction or non — that has “legs” and word of mouth …


    Next comment, also no doubt unpopular with some but contrary to a post on another blog this AM — it is NOT the abuses that keeps Scientology front and center BUT “celebrity”

    IF abuses were what drives the American and world wide public to buy and read — the Kardashians wouldn’t be RUNNING the reality show (which becomes the “real” world) world.

    SADLY it’s mostly about celebrity. Promise a celebrity at your event and you have a full house. Promise a celebrity SCANDAL — oh even better —

    Celebrity doesn’t have to be movie star celebrity — can be Wall Street Celebrity, Martha Stewart type celebrity. ANYONE who has more and a perceived BIGGER LIFE than little ole me.

    (and in the scientology world — celebrity can be top executives who leave, top executives who stay etc etc)

    We seem to be programmed to watch THE MIGHTY FALL —

    RARELY do many say — “there by the grace of God, go I”

    OR better yet perhaps — we are all in this (this being life) together


    PS: My heart bleeds for those who have lost their children, lost their parents, lost their friends or livelihood through the abusive practices of disconnection — and I too wish this practice would JUST STOP. However, it’s important to always, but always NOT be defined by what we are not.

    Or be defined by our human tragedies.

  18. Smile. Much love to you and your family Marty.

  19. You are so spot on! Celebrity gets everyone’s attention. Our world has gotten so narcissistic that we all want to be “famous” or rub elbow with the famous.
    I have read that the attraction to Scientology is the focus on “me” as well as the promise future access to “special knowledge”. Unfortunately this could be said of therapy, except a good therapist will get their client to recognize that they are inherently worthy of love, but nobody out there is a “special snowflake”, including themselves.

  20. “…you must be reprogrammed to come BACK round to the written word, whether it was best on all dynamics or otherwise.”

    And that was the basic violation of the written word itself. I think if that fundamental alone had been adhered to, things would have been a lot different.

  21. Wise words.

    This reminds me of a quote I came across by Dorothy Parker which seems to apply in a lateral way:

    “The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity.”

  22. Yes, MarkNR, and it is sometimes necessary to impose judgement, too.

    Judges in courts of law, do it in courts, on behalf of society, every day.

    If you see someone doing something wrong, say for example committing some destructive act, as a responsible citizen, you should give that person some corrective words. If it is serious enough you need to call the police.

    The other day I was walking downtown and saw this teenage girl put her foot up to press the walk button at a street light. I told her that was a hand button, not a foot button. That is not being judgemental.

    The big problem with scientology is that it has so much false and limiting data, laced into it, that is supposed to be accepted as written in stone gospel truth, ………….that if you buy into it,……….. that is take it all in as TRUTH, you will have a psychotic breakdown, at least to some degree. You will be crazy. You will have great difficulty thinking right, and being sensible, and functioning in society in an acceptable manner, if you are able to at all. Most can’t.

    That is why everyone who has done the bridge (or even some part of it) has some sort of mental problems/disorders to some degree ranging from mild to severe. The worst are complete psychotic breaks, insane, bipolar.

    If you go through all scientology data with a fine tooth comb, you will find most of it wrong. I agree with Filbert that less than one tenth of one percent is right. At the same time, the same applies to his bridge.

    But like in so many things Hubbard said, he often says something the exact opposite at another time. That is part of the insanity of scientology.

    The most significant data is that in “How to study a science”. Where he tells his sheep,(in essence, in my words) to stop parroting him, and think for themselves and do their own research and build your own bridge.

    If you can’t build your own bridge and build a better bridge, you really flunked scientology.

    Only the truth will set you free from the bondage of your problems.

    A Christian Scientologist Plus

    If anyone is interested in getting corrective auditing and learning a true bridge, email me diogeneseii at

    Make subject: Re corrective auditing.

  23. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    Thats a purpose:
    “Moving On Up a Little Higher”
    and after 6 years still on purpose and joyfully sailing through any storm and tempest towards it wherever it will end….

  24. Thanks for detailing judgement, Dio. I think a possible precursor to judgement to be aware of would be classification, a normal mental activity.

    As an example, let’s say I’m walking down a city street alone late at night and a door opens up, perhaps five buildings ahead and someone steps out. The classification process would be is that person large or small, male or female, young or old, or, yes, black or white which I’ll return to in a moment.

    Now what if there were three people stepping out? The classification would continue as to are they, let’s say, drunk, boisterous or seemingly just on their way and not a threat. In Texas Tropics a consideration would be made as to whether they were gang members.

    Regarding black or white, I grew up in an all white small town. Myself, as might another, might have a lingering hidden idea that since I’m not a ‘bro”, then I would be more of a target. Of course I now know from interaction everywhere from a supermarket, business and all other areas of human interaction that blacks, hispanics and any other race or ethnicity are just people who enjoy conversation and joking around, as do I. Naturally, caution prevails when encountering people with ill intentions and there are, of course, cultural preferences.

    I used to think that a politician stating “I don’t see color.” was bull, but now I think that is possible. A constant interaction with people of all races, ethnicities and denominations would allow a person to suspend, disregard or not even experience classifying people in that regard.

    So for me the cognition is that I should be aware of the possibility of classification entering or clouding my judgement.

  25. Yes, Richard.


  26. Also, Dio, picking up on “Everyone who has done the bridge . . . has some sort of mental problems/disorders . . .”

    Some people might be defensive and say “Well, that’s not ME.” lol
    Well, I would say that I agree in that it was very true in my case. I walked away from scn in 1983 and “forgot”, I thought, (snicker) about the whole thing.

    After watching Going Clear I deeply reexamined my scn experience. Lo and behold, unsavory attitudes and mindsets (programming) was lying deep and had carried forward for all these years. Also, cognitive dissonce, for me, “I should continue my intellectual and spiritual development – BUT – I can’t trust anyone” laughter. I hope I’m over all that!

    I’m surely not the only person who thought they walked away unscathed.

  27. And of course celebrity is why people read Marty.

  28. “The more ignorance we demonstrate, the more arrogance we produce”

    I rest your case.

  29. The truth is, You will still die like me

  30. Funny this I cannot post this twice on Why we protest because of rules

  31. I know.

    I am one of those guys

  32. Nondualism which was discussed on th “Culture of Complaint” topic might be a form of self hypnosis. It could be considered as convincing “oneself” that one is a “timeless observer” watching creations of the mind. I, Me, You, They, are creations of thought and ego, nondualists say. It leads to “What” is looking at “I”. (just being a bit facetious here – laughter)

    I’m still listening to some of the nondualism teachers and gurus. Zen type thinking, looking for non worded insight, would seem to short cut the lenghty Western thought process.

    A definition might be in order:

    satori – [Jpn, nominal form of satoru, to understand the truth of] spiritual enlightenment or illumination: term used esp. in Zen Buddhism

  33. Relating this to the book passage, there is an elaborate thought process going on leading to the conclusion that “Maybe we exercise a little humility and a little curiousity.” That would be a truism, but I don’t get the thought process leading up to it. Too much thinking going on imo, but its a novel about a young man gaining life realizations with the aid of a guru, so ok.

  34. I think Marty is well aware of the need to balance or blend Western analytical thinking with Eastern intuitive thinking.
    On his “How to trek the Great Middle Path” post he offers suggestions.
    One of them is “Seek balance of intellect and intuition”
    Another is “Modulate the need to do or say with the abilities to observe, to share and to let be”
    So I’ll shut up – laughter

  35. Miraldi

    Don’t worry, just live your life.

    Their aint no protocol

  36. My Friend(And I can fucking say that because he is really my friend) Boris:

  37. Nondualism is indeed a thought stopper.

    I have listened to the Tao for 2 and a half hours

    It is not something that brings you bliss

  38. ….people like us are gonna make it because we don’t want freedom….we don’t want justice….we just want someone to love….

    Right Cat Daddy? Damn right I’m right! Lol…

  39. “hypnotism pulls all the pins….”

    “He has allready gave his control to somebody else…..”

  40. “Nondualism is indeed a thought stopper.

    I have listened to the Tao for 2 and a half hours

    It is not something that brings you bliss”

    I agree Cat Daddy. But riding in the Rodeo will indeed bring you bliss…

    The West is Best. Yee Haw!!!

  41. Hey Cat daddy – Here is something you might like. It’s from “Buddhism – A Way of Life and Thought” by Nancy Wilson Ross. BTW how is your tooth doing?

    “Zen genuinly relishes laughter at its own expense . . .”

    “In humorous Zen anecdotes an event as unavoidable, as organic and above all as commonplace as death might be expected to – and does – find a place for itself. . . ”

    “Another monk, named Ten Ying-feng knowing he was about to die and determined to do so in some outstanding fashion, inquired if anyone had ever died standing up. Being assured that such an occurrence had indeed taken place, he then inquired, ‘How about upside down?’ No one present had witnessed or ever heard of such a demise, so Ten promptly stood on his head and thus gave up the ghost. His garments rose about his person, decorously covering his body, which remained in this headstand position so long that it became a public spectacle. Crowds of people traveled from near and far to view the phenomenon. These curiosity seekers became a distinct inconvenience to Ten’s fellow monks, who, however could not agree among themselves about the disposal of the corpse.”

    “At last a Buddhist nun, who happened to be a younger sister of Ten’s, arrived on the scene. Viewing her brother’s corpse standing on its head, she addressed it with unconcealed annoyance: ‘While you were alive you took no proper notice of laws and customs and even now that you are dead you’re making a thorough nuisance of yourself.’ Whereupon she gave the late Ten Yin-feng a sharp prod with her finger; his body fell over with a thud and she ordered it carted off to the burial ground by his brothers.”

    Another one follows. I’ll post it later.

    P.S. I’m still ejoying cuts from PostmodernJukebox. I noted that a few of the previous top tens from American Idol participate.

  42. Actually, I look at nondualism as a “thought starter” – I just don’t know if I’m interested in following it to Bliss Cloud #9 – laughter

  43. I like watching the videos posted here, even when they have nothing to do with the subject at hand. Lone Star, not a bad country song, but a disturbing video. Bull riding involves putting on a strap with painful spikes against the most sensitive part of the animal, his genitals, then snapping it to dig into his skin; the animal “bucks” to try to get it off because it hurts so much… see how their eyes roll back in their head, and they almost break their back kicking in a frenzy from the pain and don’t stop until another man runs up to release the strap. Is this animal cruelty for ‘sport’ really ‘bliss’ as you say? Love Texas, disapprove of the Rodeo.

  44. The story above from Nancy Wilson Ross’ book is surely an embellished fable, but you gotta love the mindset. Here’s another which probably rings true.

    “Zen genuinly relishes laughter at its own expense, enjoying in particular, anecdotes which expose sententiousness or pomposity. The typical reaction of a master to smug or self-assured behavior on the part of the pupil often seems to resemble a Mack Sennett or Marx Brothers comedy: a good swift kick in the behind, or some other devastating comic assault.”

    “A monk came to the Master Ma Tsu for help in solving the koan he had been given: ‘What is the meaning of Bodhidharma’s coming to China?’ The Master suggested that before proceeding with the problem the monk should make him a low bow. As he was dutifully prostrating himself, Ma Tsu, the great Master, applied his foot to the monk’s posterior. The unexpected kick resolved the murky irresolution in which the monk had been floundering for some time. When he felt the impact of his teacher’s foot, he is said to have ‘attained immediate enlightenment.’ Subsequently he said to everyone he met, ‘Since I received that kick from Ma Tsu I haven’t been able to stop laughing.’ ”

    I’m still laughing and I certainly admire Ms. Ross’ writing style. 🙂

  45. Here’s a short passage from the Tao that caught my eye since I felt it related to scn as well as other practices. From Translation by Derek Lin

    From Chapter 41

    Higher people hear of the Tao
    They diligently practice it
    Average people hear of the Tao
    They sometimes keep it and sometimes lose it
    Lower people hear of the Tao
    They laugh loudly at it
    If they do not laugh, it would not be the Tao

    Of course laughing at scn is not allowed within the hallowed and somber halls of the current CoS

  46. CrashingUpwards

    Letting Go, you deserve an acknowledgment for this. You always, at least to me, are able to express great insight. Using yourself as the example you know best, I am hopeful your self-examination will keep you moving up. Please don’t get hung up on any shortcomings you identify. Your patience to honestly look within demonstrates courage and need not be subject to the judgement of others. Observe yourself, forgive yourself, make any amends and let it go. None of that is subject to outside questioning unless you allow it. No need to allow it. You must be sick of that by now. Its your past, present and future, go live it. There are lots of paths which offer structure if you want it. Find one that works for you.

  47. TJ I was just having a little fun with my old friend Cat Daddy. I wasn’t making a political statement, nor was I necessarily approving of animal cruelty. Truth be told I had a few beers that night and was really groovin’ on that old Thin Lizzy song that I hadn’t heard in years. Get a life pal. Don’t be such a buzz kill.

  48. Still Awakening

    Lone Star – Wonderful song. Some people just have to make a statement – even if not true. Bull riding has a flank strap of soft cotton rope and a minimum of 5/8 diameter. There are NO spikes and it is anatomically impossible for the flank strap to put pressure on the genitals. The strap makes them kick higher and not forward as much. I grew up on a cattle ranch and if anyone spent the time to actually look at the bull they will see this. Bull riding replaced bull fighting to not cause injury. I would like to see anyone attempt to “snap” that strap, while holding the forward rope wrapped around one hand, and walk away with a functioning body.

    As I said – wonderful song! As the title of this page says – arrogance and ignorance. This covers all areas of life. Those we “know” and those we “think” we “know.”

  49. Still awakening, that would be nice if it were true. No, it isn’t a “soft cotton strap” of less than one inch, what would be the point of such a thing? I’d also like to know how it makes a bull kick “higher and not forward” as much? How is this anatomically possible, how would a strap around the groin do that? I am sorry if you cannot reconcile yourself with the fact that bull riding is unkind to the animal. And comparing it to bull fighting as a greater harm, as a way to justify it, just doesn’t work. It’s like saying A and B are both bad, but A is worse than B, so B is ok. Finally, contrary to your allegation that I “just have to make a statement”, no, I am not an activist, or an attention-seeker, I don’t get my validation from posting on discussion forums, although I do so every now and then, I just feel it is morally wrong to harm an animal in the name of “sport”. I don’t intend to further this debate, that’s not what this forum is intended for; so you can post again and have the last word if you choose, I’m done here now. I do hope these posts will cause anyone who was unaware of the reality of rodeo to look further into it for themselves. I still like the song, and thank Lone Star for posting it, and I didn’t intend to hurt anyone’s feelings, but in life, when I see something that bothers me, I tend to speak out. It’s not always fun when someone disagrees, but when I feel that it’s important, I am going to continue to do it. I’m tempted to sign off with something profound or funny, hoping to put things in perspective and lighten the impact, like “Peace in the middle East” or “Love and cinnamon toast” but that would be silly, and I don’t think it would make you any less antagonistic towards me in any case. OK then, Have a nice day. 🙂

  50. I understand where you are coming from TJ. I just get my back up sometimes when I feel like someone is “scolding me”. But I do commend your dedication to animal rights. I am a semi-regular donator to the ASPCA and other organizations that fight for animal rights. I myself haven’t been to a rodeo since 1985. I will not ever go to a Circus again because of the deplorable conditions animals endure.

    So, sorry for the antagonistic first reply. I know that your heart was in a good place.

  51. It looks like I have to break my word not to post again, because I want to say Thank you, Lone Star, for the kind words, I appreciate your saying what you did. I used to love the circus too, then I also found out how the animals were treated, so now I only go to Cirque du Soleil, lol. (Only people, performing acrobatics, etc., no animals). Thanks again 🙂

  52. Letting go

    Yes, questioning myself and being questioned by others in excess is tiring. On the other hand, I don’t want to end up closed off and arrogant. If I am curious, how do I avoid giving in too much to others’ questioning? A balancing act.

    I appreciate everything you wrote here, but these words in particular: “Observe yourself, forgive yourself, make any amends and let it go”. I think I’ll write that down on my chalkboard. I am at the observing stage. Forgiveness wil arise naturally, I believe.

    I’m tired of crucifying myself with responsibility or sidestepping the same by saying, well, I was born in. It’s part of my life, and more importantly, part of my past. There is little that can be done about the past, but much that I can do now. I feel life and interest returning. It’s almost magical.

    I’m finding my path organically, evolving – and presently wondering if the notion of a path is limiting or beneficial?

  53. Interesting. Thank you

  54. CrashingUpwards

    The path may change as we grow. A new teacher or teaching may replace an older one in the forefront for the moment. Our existence , being conscious, thinking and then acting or not, means we cannot help to be on some sort of path. Whether is a good or bad one depends. No path should limit you. To me, the path is just what I am studying, practicing, observing and taking in that I have most recently found holds some survival or hope for where I want to go. You can stay with one teaching and evolve higher using it, or you can go from one to another. I have come across so much wisdom in my life. It has helped greatly even if I have only absorbed and took to heart and practice 2% of it. Which is probably about accurate. The saying; “when the student is ready, the teacher will come”, does seem to have happened in my life. I received what I needed when I needed it, when I had been in need and chosen to be open. Looking back on the wisdom and practices I have come across, there is always one i can rely on to provide the stability or guidance that the moment requires. Many teachings overlap in their message and wisdom. And that is a good thing. That should mean they are based on truths. The more ways the lesson is taught and explained, the more it has also sunk in. Practical wisdom and examples are what worked best for me. The more esoteric, the more it eluded me. I think the most truth and workability is found in the best known sources. There is a reason they are the best known. From them countless books have expanded on different ways to put the teaching into practice. What works for you, or what has worked, what you really liked, should be a core guidebook or fallback to help you going forward. We don’t need to reinvent the wheel. I like the 12 steps programs, Gurdgieff’s 4th way, Percival’s Thinking and Destiny, Roy Masters and Vernon Howard, and Masonic symbology. I am sure you and everyone here has their own list. I have seem a lot of them mentioned and quoted here. A lot of them sound good.

  55. An ihibiting factor on being on a path might be mild or moderate depression. When I was sixteen I went through a mild depression. I think it wouldn’t be expected of me since I had a good childhood, I was active in sports and had friends. But I still hit a point where life seemed empty and meaningless. I carried on but had no interest in previous activities. This only lasted about a month and then passed. Some poor souls have extreme bouts of depression which leads to being bed ridden, and two people I’ve known said they dreaded that condition coming on, but eventually they get through it.

    Today I’ll get interested in a subject or path and maybe go cold on it a while later, but I don’t fight the feeling. As Crashing says, the good paths cross reference and support each other.

    My wife and my brother’s wife both take Zoloft, a mild anti-depressive. Apparantly it stimulates dopamine production and levels out mood swings.

    In my opinion most of the hard push from various, not all, religions and practices is an attempt to consolidate beliefs about mortality. As someone once said, “You can’t do much living if you’re worrying about dying.” Take away group agreement on escaping mortality and the path should provide day to day benefits rather than just chasing a goal of ultimate truthhood. I usually find real wins are apparent and hopefully become internalized and an everyday part of being alive.

  56. The Tao is a thought stopper.

    Mary will not hate me for this but put his thinking cap on

  57. Lone Star, I believe in honesty. I am a Lefty, You are a Righty

    If Donald Trump was honest I would cheer for him.

  58. Arrogance and Ignorance:

    Maybe we all should relax:

  59. My tooth is gone. but thank you for caring. The Facade will be taken care off

    Thank you for caring Richard.

    I now play the Witcher 3 alot and Fallout 4

    And this is more Importantant because it is about music

    “P.S. I’m still ejoying cuts from PostmodernJukebox. I noted that a few of the previous top tens from American Idol participate”

    I will tell you a secret. I have been there and seen this:

  60. The “cobblestones”of Groningen

  61. “It’s Hypnotism””

  62. That is why everyone who has done the bridge (or even some part of it) has some sort of mental problems/disorders to some degree ranging from mild to severe. The worst are complete psychotic breaks, insane, bipolar.

    Geez Dio, that is one sweeping statement. It reminds me of Hubbard’s sweeping statements (“All ARC breaks stem from missed withholds”, “The only reason a person gives up a study…”) etc.

    Kinda judgmental too, and not in the good way.

  63. Hi Marty,

    I have a genuine question. I am so conflicted. I can see the overwhelming benefit that learning about Scientology and having auditing could bring to my life. I know I have things from the past I need to learn to overcome and I know I struggle with difficult communication situations, which I also believe from my research the teachings of Scientology could help with. However I feel, at least with me, working alone would yield poor results, particularly on the communication issue (I can tell myself to have a hard conversation but I can’t help myself crying during it).
    I however don’t see a place for me in modern Scientology. I am a British person living in Orlando so I could go to Clearwater, but I don’t want to join a church where mine and my families financial security could be in jeopardy.
    I don’t know what to do next or who to speak with. I want/need to try auditing but don’t want to join Miscavige’s organization…. What do I do?! Please advise. Thanks, Naomi.

  64. After blowing scn in 1983 I never followed another spiritual quest. After watching the Going Clear documentary I participated on Marty’s “How to Trek the Great Middle Path” topic. There he presents six contemplative suggestions. I persued them diligently for about two months as a quest and had many cognitions.

    It occurs to me that Marty, myself or another may not even refer to these suggestions now, since they could be internalized and not even needed to be “used”, but just become a natural part of oneself. I still reflect upon them from time to time.

    I now realize that moving on to another quest doesn’t negate in any way previous truths I’ve learned. Also, the advice I give today may not be the advice I give tomorrow, which wouldn’t make me dishonest, only that my opinions or attitudes have changed. If I come to accept and enjoy life one day at a time, then “questing” might in fact become a secondary rather than a primary pursuit, unlike scn insistence on attaining “Total Freedom”.

  65. Alanzo recently posted a nice piece about Marty which also gives interesting historical background about Scientology on the Internet.

  66. CrashingUpwards

    Richard, I agree. Good points. If one can take life one day at a time (one of the 12 step slogans), and be in the moment more than not, one may have arrived at quite a good place. I want to add that this blog has given me a great deal of information and context from which I shed emotional and mental ties to some of my past in Scn. Very beneficial. A big thank you to Marty and so many of the contributors.

  67. Cat Daddy dawg….my favorite current Scandinavian band…

    If you have ghosts you truly do have everything! Lol…

  68. There went two hours listening to Ghost along with some Rob Zombie and Slipnot, a good end to the Memorial Day weekend! The tune called “Cirice” is now in my head for good – and that’s good. Can you hear the rumble?

  69. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    This is a must read. It tells it all. That’s it !
    A speech given by a graduate of Harvard.
    It’s a joy to see that Young Generations understand the Problems and find the Solutions to all above nonsense.
    There is so much hope in the World of Today.

    “Education then, beyond all other devices of human origin,
    Is a great equalizer of the conditions of men.” – Horace Mann, 1848.
    At the time of his remarks I couldn’t read — couldn’t write.
    Any attempt to do so, punishable by death.
    For generations we have known of knowledge’s infinite power.
    Yet somehow, we’ve never questioned the keeper of the keys —
    The guardians of information.

    Unfortunately, I’ve seen more dividing and conquering
    In this order of operations — a heinous miscalculation of reality.
    For some, the only difference between a classroom and a plantation is time.
    How many times must we be made to feel like quotas —
    Like tokens in coined phrases? —
    “Diversity. Inclusion”
    There are days I feel like one, like only —
    A lonely blossom in a briar patch of broken promises.
    But I’ve always been a thorn in the side of injustice.

    Disruptive. Talkative. A distraction.
    With a passion that transcends the confines of my consciousness —
    Beyond your curriculum, beyond your standards.
    I stand here, a manifestation of love and pain,
    With veins pumping revolution.
    I am the strange fruit that grew too ripe for the poplar tree.
    I am a DREAM Act, Dream Deferred incarnate.
    I am a movement – an amalgam of memories America would care to forget
    My past, alone won’t allow me to sit still.
    So my body, like the mind
    Cannot be contained.

    As educators, rather than raising your voices
    Over the rustling of our chains,
    Take them off. Un-cuff us.
    Unencumbered by the lumbering weight
    Of poverty and privilege,
    Policy and ignorance.

    I was in the 7th grade, when Ms. Parker told me,
    “Donovan, we can put your excess energy to good use!”
    And she introduced me to the sound of my own voice.
    She gave me a stage. A platform.
    She told me that our stories are ladders
    That make it easier for us to touch the stars.
    So climb and grab them.
    Keep climbing. Grab them.
    Spill your emotions in the big dipper and pour out your soul.
    Light up the world with your luminous allure.

    To educate requires Galileo-like patience.
    Today, when I look my students in the eyes, all I see are constellations.
    If you take the time to connect the dots,
    You can plot the true shape of their genius —
    Shining in their darkest hour.

    I look each of my students in the eyes,
    And see the same light that aligned Orion’s Belt
    And the pyramids of Giza.
    I see the same twinkle
    That guided Harriet to freedom.
    I see them. Beneath their masks and mischief,
    Exists an authentic frustration;
    An enslavement to your standardized assessments.

    At the core, none of us were meant to be common.
    We were born to be comets,
    Darting across space and time —
    Leaving our mark as we crash into everything.
    A crater is a reminder that something amazing happened here —
    An indelible impact that shook up the world.
    Are we not astronomers — looking for the next shooting star?
    I teach in hopes of turning content, into rocket ships —
    Tribulations into telescopes,
    So a child can see their potential from right where they stand.
    An injustice is telling them they are stars
    Without acknowledging night that surrounds them.
    Injustice is telling them education is the key
    While you continue to change the locks.

    Education is no equalizer —
    Rather, it is the sleep that precedes the American Dream.
    So wake up — wake up! Lift your voices
    Until you’ve patched every hole in a child’s broken sky.
    Wake up every child so they know of their celestial potential.
    I’ve been a Black hole in the classroom for far too long;
    Absorbing everything, without allowing my light escape.
    But those days are done. I belong among the stars.
    And so do you. And so do they.
    Together, we can inspire galaxies of greatness
    For generations to come.
    No, sky is not the limit. It is only the beginning.
    Lift off.

  70. Ha! You are now in the bonds of Satan Richard! Yes Cirice is a great little number. They received a Grammy for it earlier this year. You should have seen the looks on the crowd’s faces when they went up to accept it all decked out in their “ghostly attire”. They didn’t know quite what to think. Lol…

  71. Thank you for the acknowledgement CU. I’ve known Bill Wilson for 15 years although I haven’t spoken with him in a long time. I’ll continue more below later. smile

  72. Ghost is not Satanist. A commenter said in an interview a band member said they believe in nothing; “Anyone who says they have The Answer is lying.”

    “Can you hear the rumble” to me is destruction of the planet through overpopulation, the root cause of global warming. A recent Scientific American article says zero population growth is obtained by a birth rate of 2.1 children per female. This is acheived by education, free birth control and empowerment of women. Empowered women have more choice about having children.

    A key verse for me among others in “Cirice” is:

    I know your soul is not tainted
    Even though you’ve been told so

    Satanist? Not to me

  73. P.S. The lead singer is wearing a prosthetic mask. They all are actually younger dudes. Check out the comments or just look at his nose – laughter

  74. CrashingUpwards

    I familiarized myself with Bill a few times. Great guy. Humble, wise, caring. Was not after your money and had no need to control any aspect of your life. It was all on you. His best selling book, Alcoholics Anonymous, was one of the best books I ever read. Funny, insightful, and so much more. Now there is an organization that actually helps millions of people and asks so little in return. So different from the vulture culture of the COS. The good book says the last shall be first and the first shall be last. Diminishing ones pride, ego and/or false self are what stand out for me as shared by all great teachings.

  75. Letting go

    Hi Richard,
    Thanks for your wise words. I’m a bit slow in responding right now, because I like to digest what I’ve read. Yes, increasingly it seems that the paths/ideas/structures I seek out do support each other. The more I feel, the more I understand. I also appreciate that you say you don’t fight the feeling when you lose interest in a path. Presently, my interest comes and goes – I tend to read something, let it germinate and come back for more from the or a similar same source later.

    My medication certainly helps with mood swings. I like most of all what you said about taking away group agreement on escaping mortality. You put into words what I had been feeling but was unable to articulate. Why? Because I was afraid of letting go of escaping mortality, while at the same time understanding that goal to be obscuring life. I was afraid of admitting that, ultimately, there might be no escape.

    I appreciate the idea of reaping benefits from paths for day to day life, and will use it to get my head out of the clouds (meaning, feel life instead of being transfixed by the idea of aware immortality just out of reach).

  76. Just a philosophical comment about “Cirice”. Metaphorically speaking, taking “I” and “me” as the human race as one, then the whole song is about unification.

    Can’t you see that you’re lost
    Can’t you see that you’re lost without me
    I can feel the thunder that’s breaking in your heart
    I can see through the scars inside you

    Powerful stuff imo. Put aside differences and join the Human Race and be healed. The song deserved a Grammy.

    P.S. Satanic not Satanist – pardon the grammar – laughter – It’s their act. Their fans are not going to be listeners of Justin Beiber or Taylor Swift. If some people want to take it as Satanic, then whatever works.

  77. I know that the band is not really Satanist. It is seemingly pretty much impossible for me to get my humor across on this particular blog, so I think I’ll quit trying.

  78. Mark C. Rathbun

    All of my relevant thoughts can be found in the book “What Is Wrong With Scientology?”

  79. Alanzo has really improved his site lately I see. I’m glad he’s posting again because his insight is very useful and valid in my opinion. I like his recent post “Internalizing the Criticisms of Shallow Assholes”. I’ve been coming to the same overall conclusions lately about the Ex/Critic/ScnWatcher internet forum and blog world. I may expound upon this later when I have time. Basically I am done with that world. At least to the extent in which I used to be a part.

    And to be totally honest there were many times in which I myself was a “toxic/shallow asshole”. Especially on ESMB. (For example I was pretty nasty to Alanzo when he had his brief return a year or so ago. I was pretty rough on a lot of people. I’m not proud of any of those terrible posts over a four year span of time).

    I think that all too often we humans become similar to that which we strenuously protest.

    There is a fine line. A balance that’s hard to achieve. Pointing out evil and injustice is one thing. But just negatively criticizing and painting people with a wide brush is another.

    Or to borrow a quote from Alanzo’s post on his site ….”The problem for Ex-Scientologists is that too many people on the Post Scientology Internet have such contempt and disgust for Scientology, and for the pursuit anything spiritual, that they are toxic to be around if you are trying to learn your own lessons from your time in. What people need, after they have discovered enough of the deceptions in Scientology, is a supportive environment for HAVING BEEN A SCIENTOLOGIST.”

  80. Nice win LG and thanks for the acknowledgement. I don’t deny aesthetic possibilities. That would be limiting. But I can be compulsive so I keep that in mind. One time I got stuck in a Walter Mitty fantasy for two days straight. I learned a lesson from that. smile

  81. Laughter! – I’ve also failed miserably at internet humor. It seems the only way to do it is to outright say it’s a joke.
    One time I “jokingly” said that even my parents wanted to disown me when I became a scio-freak. Two people responded with how sorry they were for me and I had to apologize my way out of that one.
    Thanks for turning me on to Ghost. See ya later in Hell, Lone Star (joke)

  82. P.S. Letting go – This conversation leads me to realize that my thinking can go from compulsive to obsessive. It’s not something I need to fight off, so to speak, but identifying and labelling it will lead to benefits for me. I recall saying many times that I have a one track mind, or that I tend to be a perfectionist. I’ll now see a bit deeper than that. Thanks for contributing.

  83. After a thousand years of being in Bliss or walking the strawberry fields of Heaven things might get boring.

  84. I’ve been using the official Cirice music video as a morning meditation for the last few days.

    Quoting “Friend” on September 19, 2015 on the Middle Path post:

    “Basically you should go with Rhythm and Harmony. The rest comes from within if you feel and do so. Both belong to music and music is a mirror of your heart or your inside touch to feelings.”

    I didn’t get that the first time through the Middle Path.

  85. Marty(Mark) Rathbun has a family. So he has to make tough choiches.

    He can not taylor to all of your whims or mine.

  86. nuff said (Irony does a scientologist understand irony?)

  87. Lone star I love this man with all that is in me:

  88. I understand what the Tao tries to do. Calm the fuck out of aggressive and violont peoplle. But where do you go from ther.

    It is not boring perse, But it was written in a time that peoplle were ready to kill eachoter

  89. I am glad that you have enjoyed and have been enlightened by ‘Ghost’. The band is quite remarkable and very talented. A buddy of mine turned me on to them about five months ago. I still haven’t gotten around to hearing all of their songs. Have you heard ‘Mummy Dust’? A very definite commentary on the fiat money system. Lol… I also really like ‘Deus in Absentia’. You’ll see a quick shot from ‘Eyes Wide Shut’ in that video which is perfectly timed to the meter.

  90. I have the Assists Processing Handbook, purple, hard binder. I have used it countless times and have done a LOT of people a LOT of good in the last 3-4 years. I don’t use all the processes, and the right assist must be chosen for each person, fault, and situation. Add some Dianetics (when appropriate) and a lot of anguish can be saved.
    Just sayin’.

  91. The latest outrage from Tony Ortega and his sneering contempt for Ex-Scientologists:


  92. Music can have majesty. It’s nice to remind myself that life can have majesty. I put on the headphones and turn up the volume.
    Mummy Dust ?? You’ve already posted Satanic crap and now you’re talking about mummies? (joke)
    I’ll see if I can find those songs on their playlist.

  93. Nice comment, Lone Star. I’m a newcomer to the scene and benefit greatly from what yourself and others have discussed.
    I’ve been holding a grudge against organized religion and need to make sure it’s not a blanket condemnation of all the people within. It can go to regarding anyone’s beliefs as programming.

  94. There was a woman on WWP a few years ago….I think she went by the name “Amax”….who referred to Tony O as “Blowtega”. At the time I thought she was being ridiculous. (We didn’t actually get along ourselves…Lol…) Now I’m beginning to see that she may have been on to something. Had some insight that I at the time discredited.

    Why he just gave his book to the grrrrrreat James Randi don’t you know? Isn’t that special? He’s really riding this anti-Scientology thing for all it’s worth. Has used to to rub shoulders with celebrities he would have never been able to otherwise. Oh well….It’s human to want to be important. We all want that at least some of the time in our lives. The key is to not be a jerk in the process. I’ve certainly been one myself all too often.

    I am certainly done with “The Bunker”, just as I am done with ESMB. Both have a cultish aspect themselves. Oh that stings doesn’t it Bunkaroos and ESMBers? Well it’s true. There’s an accepted groupthink at both places and if you express anything contrary you will be dealt with accordingly. I know. I used to be one of the worst ones on ESMB. I admit it. I was pretty nasty with you Alanzo when you made your brief comeback. I see now that the observations you made regarding ESMB at that time were spot on.

    Anyone really knows me well does know how adamant I am that David Miscavige is an asshole. A criminal asshole. I believe that Hubbard was a sociopath. I’m about as anti-cult as one can get. But I am not going to take part in painting ALL Scientologists with a wide brush. I know for a fact that many of them are truly good and decent people who want to help others. Are they blind to the abuses of DM? Yes. And that is unfortunate. It is a part of being in a cult. But they are blinded because they truly believe that “the tech” works and has helped them. They want to help others with it as well. Although I do think that the lower level aspects of Scientology do help at times, it’s the upper levels that are the scam. That suck you in to giving more, and more, and more. To giving up your whole life for the pursuit of BS.

    I am still in contact with a handful of still-ins and I do like and respect them. They are good people. I believe that one day they will see what I have come to see. It may be tomorrow, next week, next month, or a few years from now. But one thing I do know is that they won’t come to see it by going to internet sites and seeing themselves ridiculed and slandered. I have myself been a part of this. No more.

    Thanks for your site Alanzo. It is quite good. Thank you as well for yours Marty.

  95. If you haven’t already be sure to find the “Music Video” versions of each of those songs. Now….are you aware that they covered another great Swedish band? A little ol’ band named ABBA? Lol…. Yeah….they sold a few records.

  96. Some interesting comments here prompt me to say:

    Don’t trade one “groupthink” for another.

    In the meantime, best wishes to Marty, Mosey and family.

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