Cyber Cults


The New York Times recently covered some interesting phenomena that is happening online, see Frank Bruni – How Facebook Warps Our Worlds. Bruni observes that our newfound abilities to facilely pick villains, jump to judgments and duck/cluster with like-opinionated people (all without showing our faces or even necessarily identifying ourselves) has led to some creepy results. You can see how some of that has played out in the world of scientology – where kettles and pots are becoming increasingly indistinguishable – at the following links:

Goodbye to all that…

Alanzo on Ortega and his Underground Bunker

Tony Ortega and Carmen Llywelyn


177 responses to “Cyber Cults

  1. Chris Mann

    It’s something I’ve been curious about, but I’m not sure I have nailed down the motivation for “Scientology watching”. I get communicating to correct or “as-is” a wrongness, but they don’t want that. They crave the wrongness like it’s really good heroin. They wake up in the morning going through withdrawals and the shakes, reaching for their laptop to get more wrongness.

    The closest thing I can think of is the celeb watching, where they have this enormous unquenchable thirst for degrading rumors and information about celebrities. The paparazzi scene and all that. Pretty soon maybe there will be photogs stalking the Scientology and ex scn “celebs”.

  2. I think Miss Tia’s observations of being in the Bunker were very profound. It’s an excellent portrait of human “groupthink”.

    On Facebook, Sam Freeman had just read Miss Tia’s story and wrote her thoughts on it, which I thought were spot-on:

    “It reads like a cult victim story. Horrified is the word that springs to mind. Do people make cult leaders or do cult leaders make mindless followers? I don’t understand how this can happen to experienced ex cult members unless the ‘never-ins’ are getting drunk on koolaide for the first time. Seriously. WTF?”

    I think she touched on what we are seeing: “never-ins” have never had to confront their human groupthink impulse like Ex-Scientologists have had to. And the Bunkerites can not see the value of questioning their leader, and questioning the groupthink that is presently ruling their minds in the Bunker.

    Getting into, and getting out of, Scientology was a very profound experience. Most people have never experienced anything like it in their lives. It can give a person a perspective on human existence that few people have.


  3. lagunascott


    People like to hang on to their precious wrongnesses. Maybe it’s the only things they really have.

  4. Thanks for this. Useful.

  5. One time on a blog I found myself singing with the choir, knocking a CoS event. A blogger who identified himself as a still-in presented counter arguments, and on most of his points I had to agree. I realized how easily I had suspended my critical thinking in favor of just agreeing with the group. I thanked him for his participation and for me it was a big realization.

  6. Thanks for posting Sam’s thoughts Alanzo, as I’m no longer on FB. 🙂 I was never a Scientologist. I don’t think I could explain how it happened even if I really really tried to analyze the experience, and I don’t wish to dwell on it that much anymore. It just shows that, be it Scientology, or a Scientology watching group–that even includes ex-Scientologists–group think takes over and you aren’t aware of it. You think everything you do is of your own free will. You think you still can have differing opinions from others (even when you suppress your thoughts knowing you’d be attacked for expressing them).

    Until you can remove yourself/detach yourself to view the situation without being ‘in the mix’, you don’t have the time or ability to gain perspective. That was my personal experience. I had known something was wrong but I kept suppressing it.

    I had a very abusive childhood. I thought everyone did, why would I think any different? When I went to college I saw parents hugging, kissing, crying as they left their kids at college. What’s this? That’s different. It took a few years to process all that before I started therapy. When you’re in the midst of something toxic, you think it’s ‘normal’. When you get away and can breathe some fresh air you can look/think about it and you start to realize that it’s not normal. But you question that, you doubt that, the human condition makes you think too much about things. Eventually, hopefully, you can process things enough to realize the truth and remove yourself. And, perhaps plant a seed behind you for others to realize the truth. Seeds can take awhile to germinate once planted.

    Thank you Marty for linking to my post.

  7. I used to do a lot of church watching but I saw the same people year after year pick about the same thing. To me it seemed like they have not moved on. I no longer care about the church. I still like some of the tech but I am aware of it’s flaws now and thankful I got less of dose of it so I could still think for myself.

    I quit reading the Bunker a long time ago. In fact this is the only blog I have left I get notices for. I can’t play that game any more.

    Like it is said people get in a cult only they can get themselves out. It is a valuable lesson in the cyberworld too. Political and otherwise. Only real life experience and the willingness to look at all sides of an issue and being willing to accept the facts changes people. Otherwise you can’t break the wall of I don’t want to see it.

  8. Miss tia…. I have Write to you about bunker and group thinking , few years ago if you remember…..
    Big helo from LRHs Bulgravia.

  9. P.S. Looking at my comment I say “…identified himself as “a” still-in . . .”. I’ve classified him. Better to have said “. . .identified himself as still-in . . “. It’s subtle and shows me something.

  10. Valuable post.
    Thanks Marty.

  11. I was a little harsh here. It’s just that lately I’ve been watching things like the presidential election and thinking about what makes people believe and support something.

    I saw a t-shirt the other day that said “I agree with what I think I believe”. I don’t know if I’m getting the intended meaning or reading my own into it, but to me it meant similar to what the New York Times author wrote. You believe something, perhaps without thinking it through. For example- something you learned from your grandparents when you were three. Or maybe it’s something you learned from tv or the internet. You saw something, it was scary or made you mad, and they essentially told you what to think right there. There is a lot of that on Facebook. Stuff that is designed to get a negative reaction and create or reinforce an opinion. And then you “agree with what you think you believe” and away you go, off to a Trump rally. (To be fair, I don’t like Clinton or Trump)

    We have some belief. We hear it repeated by someone else. We say they are “right”, or if they are some sort of opinion leader, celebrity, cult leader etc, we say they are a genius.They are a genius because what they are saying reinforces something we already believe. It could be a rational belief or it could be something like an irrational prejudice. It’s a circle, or dwindling spiral kind of thing. We can stop looking and thinking at that point because we are 100% right and we are the good guys, on the right side.

  12. Well now. I think you’ve earned the status of honorary Ex Scientologist now you’ve had ‘the experience’ 😀
    So sorry you had to go through that (and no doubt the mud-slinging will continue (dark rumours about your sanity next are generally the norm). On the bright side… gonna be VERY hard to fool you again.
    Welcome to the ex club – you’ve earned your scars standing up to bullies. Wear them with pride. And…. HAVE SOME FUN NOW! x

  13. I do read Mr. Ortega’s blog, but oftentimes I’m not happy with how he puts people in the spotlight as well for a story. I don’t bother with the commenters there in general. Signal to noise ratio is just too low there.

    From Alanzo’s blog:

    I have to admit that this was hilarious fun for me. I wanted to get someone to think with one of these “thought grenades” just long enough to come up with a defense against it. Then, they had to examine the faulty Scientological reasoning to this blasphemy from other Scientologists on their own computer screens – rather than thinking this from inside their own heads.
    “And here’s the thing: That more tolerant, more questioning environment never would have happened if Marty himself did not allow it on his blog. As Satan, Marty allowed me to continue to post to his blog that whole time. And Marty did allow more and more questioning of the tech, and of L Ron Hubbard, and especially of himself, over time on his blog.”

    This jibes with my experience so perfectly, because that was kind of my modus operandi as well. Test out how far I could go against popular opinion without being censored. I had to laugh when Alanzo referred to himself as Satan, because I chose my name for that exact reason: In a manner of speaking, I wanted to be the devil’s advocate as seen from the perspective of true LRH believers. I’m not going to do a pact with you though, Alanzo.

    If I remember correctly, it was only very few of my comments that weren’t let through, even in the very beginnings for which I have to give kudos to you, Mr. Rathbun.
    But I also remember tweaking the wording of my long posts to make them seem less offensive.

    I see with a laughing eye and a sad eye that this is really not necessary anymore here.

    Well, maybe not quite: I do have one thought that will be contentious to you, Mr. Rathbun: As I really don’t know anything about the background and knowing how Scientology works, I am wondering how much these recent attacks on Mr. Ortega are initiated and/or fueled by OSA. On the other hand, judging from what I’ve seen coming from Mr. Ortega, the critique points about him may be valid. Truth is, I don’t know. But I really don’t need to, because I am content to watch how this plays out as an observer.

  14. George Layton

    Why is it everytime an “example” of what’s being played out by followers under Tony’s sway is posted here, that the same “example” is played out here under another’s sway? There are so many similarities of groupthink here and there it’s frightening.

  15. Path of Buddha

    Alanzo said:

    “Getting into, and getting out of, Scientology was a very profound experience. Most people have never experienced anything like it in their lives. It can give a person a perspective on human existence that few people have.”

    This statement rings true to me. I took a random walk in 1972 on the lower east side in New York in my mid-twenties. I was not aware of the danger that was lurking. On fifth avenue, only a few blocks from Madame Blavatsky’s residence in 1875, I bumped into a Scientology body-router. It seemed like a nice neighborhood with signs for doctors and lawyers. I agreed to a personality test because I just had an unfavorable business meeting with Donald Trump. The man who sold me the communications course was fresh out of a mental hospital and was 30 years later to be convicted of the largest securities fraud in Canadian history. He said they had a commuications course and a professional sales course. I signed up for both because I felt I needed to bolster my skills for the next meeting.
    Sixteen years later I find myself on the Freewinds reading about Hubbard’s desire to return as the anti-Christ. He suggests I become his is gentic vehicle.
    This gives one a perspective on human existence that is unique.
    I have decompressed for 28 years. First getting rid of the words. Then getting
    rid of the theology. Then smashing the mirror.
    In the end, however, it all boils down to less than a second. I think I should have wandered over to the Blavatsky group in Greenwich Village alive and well at the same time. At least they had poetry.
    Much Metta,
    George M. White

  16. YES! You did!! I guess I wasn’t ready to ‘see’ that then, obviously! A big hello to you too! 🙂

  17. Mark C. Rathbun

    Your defense of your opinion leader is more unwavering and irrational as any scientologist’s defense of his own. If you read here rather than reacted like a cult member, you might experience some relief.

  18. Mark C. Rathbun

    What attacks? I’ve seen nothing more than exposition of some facts and dissenting opinion. Really, to label them attacks is a tad cultish.

  19. The people you’re throwing under the bus genuinely considered you a friend. When you backed out of HowdyCon (the event that YOU championed, that YOU rallied people to vote for, that YOU made several promises for), you said it was for health reasons. I understand that, and I truly do wish you well when it comes to that. If it was that much of a stressor, it was a good decision to back away, and I don’t resent you for doing so.

    But when you cite health issues, people who genuinely care about you are going to try to reach out and see that you’re okay. They’re going to send their best wishes and their love. That’s what most sane human beings do in these situations. For you to turn around and call it “love-bombing” or “handling” is just sad. Just sad. No one was trying to pull you back into a cult. You said you were sick. People who thought they were your friend wanted to know you’re alright. What a bunch of weirdo cuties, right?

    But hey, it does fit with the little narrative you’ve created for yourself, so I get it.

    Still wishing you all the best. Still would like to consider you a friend. Just wish you hadn’t pulled that Richard relocation.

  20. Mark C. Rathbun

    comment: note the victimhood labeling. Expressing one’s views with facts to support them becomes “throwing under the bus.’

  21. Marty Rathbun is right. We should take a moment and think for this world of information.

    I am not a gem. I have flaws. Mea Culpa.

    It goes so fast these days: I have this:

    Bertolt Brecht 1898-1956
    Der Mensch lebt durch den Kopf
    der Kopf reicht ihm nicht aus
    versuch es nur; von deinem Kopf
    lebt höchstens eine Laus.
    Denn für dieses Leben
    ist der Mensch nicht schlau genug
    niemals merkt er eben
    allen Lug und Trug.

    Ja; mach nur einen Plan
    sei nur ein großes Licht!
    Und mach dann noch´nen zweiten Plan
    gehn tun sie beide nicht.
    Denn für dieses Leben
    ist der Mensch nicht schlecht genug:
    doch sein höch´res Streben
    ist ein schöner Zug.
    Ja; renn nur nach dem Glück
    doch renne nicht zu sehr!
    Denn alle rennen nach dem Glück
    Das Glück rennt hinterher.
    Denn für dieses Leben
    ist der Mensch nicht anspruchslos genug
    drum ist all sein Streben
    nur ein Selbstbetrug.

    Der Mensch ist gar nicht gut
    drum hau ihn auf den Hut
    hast du ihn auf den Hut gehaut
    dann wird er vielleicht gut.
    Denn für dieses Leben
    ist der Mensch nicht gut genug
    darum haut ihn eben
    ruhig auf den Hut.

  22. I don’t believe I did, nor would want to, throw anyone under a bus and I am sorry that it seems that way to you. Regarding HC, I did not originate the idea, of the event, and I sincerely regret doing a thorough job for the Cleveland proposal before people voted on cities for it. I did, and still do, want people to have a great time. I ensured everything was passed on and that was nothing left ‘hanging’. If things changed, etc I know I was thorough in everything I passed on information wise and whom I contacted regarding it. Again, I want everyone who attends to have a great time.

    I had some people reach out who sincerely were asking how I was doing. That was no “love bombing” and I apparently I need to differentiate the difference? I would have thought/hoped a Scientology watcher (or ex) could understand the difference? You are not privy to the emails I got, nor do I see a reason to make them public for bunker dissection.

    The handling that I mentioned was in regard to comments in the bunker itself. Though, in prior instances such things were done and/or continued via emails. I mentioned what happened the last time I was in the bunker. I’m sorry I didn’t write it clearly enough, I thought I did.

    Yes, I do have health problems. I don’t think I need to post a doctor’s note and/or the summary of my most recent visit. I left HC because of health problems, that is the truth. I tried to leave the bunker quietly but we see how that turned out. I think though, it’s for the best I spoke out.

    No narrative was “created”. I wrote about my experience and what I saw happening to others and to myself. You’re a good guy Jimmy. I said there are good people in the bunker and I meant that. No Richards were relocated by my writing.

  23. comment: note the complete lack of understanding what a ‘fact’ is. A major part of the rant you posted is about how the Bunker somehow got together and decided to send people to ‘handle’ her and ‘love-bomb’ her into coming back. Is that a fact, Marty?

    Because I know I reached out to her as a friend, out of a genuine concern for her well-being. And the very limited few I’ve spoken with about this did the same, out of their own heartfelt concern. Not as part of a groupthink cult. She was a friend who seemed to have fallen on hard times, but somehow to you people, reaching out is evidence of a cult-like hive-mind? What the hell is wrong with you?

  24. Thanks so much Sam!! I’ll proudly wear that status, and my scars! 😀

    Yeah, I’ve no doubt the mud-slinging will continue. Amazing how the playbook goes isn’t it?

    Definitely feel a lot of relief and now have a hankering to crank The Who’s Won’t Get Fooled Again! Thank you again!

  25. It’s really a shame (though I realize it’s the reality) that people can’t pause for a moment and think of the examples I gave. Some bunkerites, as Jimmy, are pretty aware of the things that are happening in the comments, so he’d be able to know what I’m referring to. He also was sitting right next to Tony when Tony asked if someone would start a fight with media_lush in the comments so he could ban him that night in Parma. It’s a shame, and also sad; but I ‘get it’ as I was once that way too. Two years ago, had the tables been turned and Jimmy had wrote something like my post, I’d have wrote a comment similar to Jimmy’s. I empathize with where he’s coming from right now and I don’t hold it against him, nor most of the others either who are caught up within that atmosphere.

  26. Mark C. Rathbun

    I accept that you sincerely hold the beliefs that you so admirably espouse and defend. Much like most of the thousands of scientologists I’ve known over the years.

  27. Wow such fanatism

    not good

  28. Marty don’t be “shaken”


  29. Playing politics is so Ugly



    In behavioral re-enactment of the trauma, the self may play the role of either victim or victimizer.

    Harm to Others

    Re-enactment of victimization is a major cause of violence. Criminals have often been physically or sexually abused as children.55,121 In a recent prospective study of 34 sexually abused boys, Burgess et al.20 found a link with drug abuse, juvenile delinquency, and criminal behavior only a few year later. Lewis89,91 has extensively studied the association between childhood abuse and subsequent victimization of others. Recently, she showed that of 14 juveniles condemned to death for murder in the United States in 1987, 12 had been brutally physically abused, and five had been sodomized by relatives.90 In a study of self-mutilating male criminals, Brach-y-Rita7 concluded that “the constellation of withdrawal, depressive reaction, hyperreactivity, stimulus-seeking behavior, impaired pain perception, and violent aggressive behavior directed at self or others may be the consequence of having been reared under conditions of maternal social deprivation. This constellation of symptoms is a common phenomenon among a member of environmentally deprived animals.”


    Self-destructive acts are common in abused children. Green53,54 found that 41 per cent of his sample of abused children engaged in headbanging, biting, burning, and cutting. In a controlled, double-blind study on traumatic antecedents of borderline personality disorder, we found a highly significant relationship between childhood sexual abuse and various kinds of self-harm later in life, particularly cutting and self-starving.143a Clinical reports also consistently show that self-mutilators have childhood histories of physical or sexual abuse, or repeated surgery.52,106,118,126 Simpson and Porter126 found a significant association between self-mutilation and other forms of self-deprecation or self-destruction such as alcohol and drug abuse and eating disorders. They sum up the conclusions of many students of this problem in stating that “self-destructive activities were not primarily related to conflict, guilt and superego pressure, but to more primitive behavior patterns originating in painful encounters wih hostile caretakers during the first years of life.”


    Revictimization is a consistent finding.35,47,61 Victims of rape are more likely to be raped and women who were physically or sexually abused as children are more likely to be abused as adults. Victims of child sexual abuse are at high risk of becoming prostitutes.38,72,125 Russell,120 in a very careful study of the effects of incest on the life of women, found that few women made a conscious connection between their childhood victimization and their drug abuse, prostitution, and suicide attempts. Whereas 38 per cent of a random sample of women reported incidents of rape or attempted rape after age 14, 68 per cent of those with a childhood history of incest did. Twice as many women with a history of physical violence in their marriages (27 per cent), and more than twice as many (53 per cent) reported unwanted sexual advances by an unrelated authority figure such as a teacher, clergyman, or therapist. Victims of father-daughter incest were four times more likely than nonincest victims to be asked to pose for pornography.

  31. You don’t “get it”

  32. I remember that, but I took facetiously, as did everyone else there. If he were really such an evil dictator cult tyrant, he would have just banned him outright long ago. He doesn’t need a reason. He was joking about starting a fight so he could ban him. It was over beers and laughs. No one cared, but I’m sorry you saw it as some shocking revelation.

    I really don’t want to pick a fight with you or put you through any more then you’ve already been through, Tia. You know I’ve always liked you, and I still do. You’re not my enemy. I just wanted you to know that it kinda sucks for you to spin people’s love and concern for you into some twisted, cultish tactical motivations. It seems rather self-serving, and I for one was upset by it.

    Taking the time to write you a note and try to reach out for a friendly chat, to maybe lift your spirits a little, somehow became the motivations of a hero-worshipping cultist? Nope. That’s not how it is, and you know it.

  33. Jimmy, if you sent me an email I never received it. It’s within your character to have sent me one so I believe you. Someone else emailed me yesterday and said they had sent me an email a few weeks prior and I had never got that. They too, wanted to know if I had considered that love bombing. If you sent it to the @misstia email that server has issues. HAD I received your email, I would not have considered it ‘love bombing’, it would have been a genuinely concerned email.

    I was love bombed starting Saturday for some reason. There is a difference between love bombing and genuine emails. I hope you can understand that.

  34. No one was laughing at that. I will give Tony points for not just outright banning ML without a reason.

    I don’t consider you my enemy either. As I replied above, I never got your email and that’s one of the reasons the @misstia email is kaput! I would have replied to it, as I said above, as I know it would have been a genuine message of concern from a friend. I replied to every email I got. I am sincerely sorry your email went to Narnia? Where missing socks go? And that that lead you to believe something that wasn’t true.

  35. Deleted by moderator. Violates moderation policy. You can take that kind of hateful vitriol back to the bunker, where I am sure you’ll find lots of fellow member validation and reinforcement.

  36. Chriss, wow, you are wise beyond your years.

    Really nice how you put that into perspective.

  37. Deleted by moderator. Violates moderation policy. If you can get a grip and control your violent partisan-driven emotions, you are free to give it another shot. – Moderator

  38. lagunascott

    There is a whole new world of opportunities

  39. I am pretty sure, going by that definition, in Mr. Ortega’s mind he isn’t attacking you or Monique either. Neither Ortega implying “the Rathbuns must have gone crazy in their lawsuit” with his writings, nor you implying Mr. Ortega is kind of presiding over a cult in this blog post are very flattering for either side. Whether you want either of these labeled “attacks” or not is just arguing over semantics. The end result is the same.

  40. Mark C. Rathbun

    You’ve framed a false issue. I have catalogued dozens of lies he created and published. They will be addressed at the appropriate time. That you believe the issue is as you have framed it is testament to Tony’s propaganda prowess.

  41. Chris Mann

    It is like a drug. Either it’s becoming more widespread in the world right now, or I’m just noticing it more.

    It’s probably because of social media and the internet. People feed on the negativity and spend all day talking about, reading about, thinking of how the other guy is wrong. Making wrong, finding guilt, shaming, exposing, humiliating, degrading and remorselessly destroying people (in their minds) seemingly only for their own entertainment.

    Some of it is deserved, but I don’t think people look into things enough to be able to differentiate. They read a short paragraph “news” item on Facebook and decide the guy in the article needs to be lynched.

    It’s a constant stream of “look how y ou are a victim”, what a terrible thing is happening and who’s fault it is. It’s unusual to see any solution offered because that’s not what sells. It play to the human desire to be rightand the erronious computation that someone has to be wrong for you to be right.

    In some instances I think it is equivalent to using breasts to sell cigarettes or cars (as in click-bait articles used to generate ad revenue).
    In it’s more sinister forms I would say it’s used as a social mind control technique but I probably don’t have room to get into all that here.

  42. Hey ,,,,,,,,stop trying to buy me

    Lying bunch of shyte:

  43. That you believe the issue is as you have framed it is testament to Tony’s propaganda prowess.

    I can assure you, you are mistaken.

  44. Mark C. Rathbun

    I can assure you, you have been deluded.

  45. Fantastic story, George.

    You are kidding about the meeting with Donald Trump, though, right?


  46. “I have catalogued dozens of lies he created and published. They will be addressed at the appropriate time. That you believe the issue is as you have framed it is testament to Tony’s propaganda prowess.”

    The appropriate time to address accusations is when you make the accusations. But you have nothing and you’re stalling. And you won’t let this post through because you’re a hypocrite and a coward.

  47. Leigh Andrews

    You have Fred Haseney (sp?) and JennyatLAX covering some Scientology events, but I think that there is a deep passive-aggressive nature to some Scientology watchers. I liked the book “Going Clear”, but the movie put me to sleep.

    As a never-in, the feeling that I get from reading the Bunker comments is that people want to see David Miscavige brought to justice and for Scientology to lose its tax-exempt status, and they want to sit back with their metaphorical popcorn and watch the show. Depending on your tax bracket and state of residence, charitable donations save you somewhere between 10 and 45% of the value of the donation, presuming that you have enough deductions to exceed the standard deduction already. Take 25% as an average value of the tax reduction from charitable donations, presume that people will donate an average of 25% less when the donation is not deductible and make Scientology subject to the usual rules of corporate taxation, and this probably drops their spendable income by up to half. Barring demands to prepay courses long in advance and refunding all money held on account through a consent decree would put a big crimp in Scientology’s war chest.

    Demand for content is another thing that fuels the fire. Things that aren’t really newsworthy get covered as a result. This is true across all media.

  48. Mark C. Rathbun

    Is that right. What is your name and address?

  49. Path of Buddha

    No, Donald and I go back about 54 years. The story is true.

  50. Wait. Is there an echo in here?

  51. If you mean to imply there is no bias or groupthink on your blog, I must respectfully disagree.

  52. Mark C. Rathbun

    No. In fact, if you read it you would see I pointed that out dozens of times over the years. It lead to me losing interest in the venue. At this point I am just doing some housekeeping.

  53. Yeah I wonder if Jimmy3 would like not only having his name and address well known and posted on an Ex Scientologist internet forum, but his Google street map close up view of his home and neighborhood too?

    Or maybe just live your life under the spotlight with absolutely no anonymity and have every move you make questioned and debated by people who don’t know you? But do it willingly. At least at first.

    And also Jimmy3, why don’t you do something that makes DM feel like you are hurting his bottom line somehow? Do it publicly with much fanfare, and practically dare him to send his goon team to ef with you.

    I think this is a case Jimmy ol’ boy in which you pointed a finger at someone while three fingers were pointing right backatcha.

  54. lagunascott

    Indeed there is!

  55. Ha! Ha!

    OK so, I’m making you responsible if he gets elected and completely destroys our country! 🙂

    I’ll need someone to blame!


  56. That’s quite understandable. I’m appreciative and sincerely wish you the best.

  57. Dale Arthur

    “Is that right. What is your name and address?”

    Mark, I get that you’re angry. But man, there’s something wrong with you. And you are attracting people like Tia, who for her many virtues, basically blames the world for her problems.

  58. Just the facts

    The NTYs is about a generation late with this story. This was occurring in the late 90’s with large online communities. But par for the course with that rag.

  59. Apparently, Tony Ortega has deleted his comments in the Underground Bunker about Carmen Llywelyn, as well as all the other denigrating comments from his followers there, without saying anything.

    This link, as of yesterday, used to take you to the thread where Tony tried to dead-agent Carmen. But it’s gone now.

    Do you think he might have apologized to her, as well?


  60. Path of Buddha

    Donald and I were in direct contact in military high school from 1960 until 1964. I outranked him and he was very, very rebellious and difficult to handle at times as you can imagine. I have not been in direct contact with him for a number of years. The story I told relates to New York City after I returned from Korea during the Viet Nam War Era. I met him and we had a brief encounter which went totally out of control. You can absolve me of any blame except for one thing. I had a chance to turn him in for discipline to the administration in 1964. This did not happen. However, I have already apologized to the American public for this omission. I do not currently support his political views, and we never discussed Scientology.

  61. Op! Looks like it’s back now.

    Very strange.


  62. Drama from one board revitalizes another?

    Drama, the energy source of all online forums.

    Better subject of focus? Dhamma


  63. Mark C. Rathbun


  64. Mark C. Rathbun


  65. you have a funny way of doing housekeeping.

  66. Would you be able to post a link to your catalog of lies you say Ortega created and published? (Or provide a reminder link if they are already listed somewhere?)

    (I read the Bunker articles, rarely post, and rarely read the comments, and do not consider myself a “Bunkerite,” whatever that might be.)


  67. I think you misunderstood Mark when he asked Jimmy3 “….What is your name and address?” Jimmy had just called him a hypocrite and a coward and Marty’s reply was, “Is that right….What is your name and address?” In other words, “I don’t see you posting and opposing the cult out in the open with your name and address fully known.”

    It was a reply out of anger necessarily. It was a statement of “put up or shut up”….and “you are the coward and hypocrite pal”.

  68. Hiram A. Biff

    I will just give my uses and perceptions of the Blogs I visit. I check the Underground Bunker to see its headline for any breaking news on lawsuits or defections but that’s about it. I check Mike Rinder’s to see updates on the Scientology organizations growth or lack thereof. I followed Marty’s Blog most closely of the 3 for enlightened commentary and overal subject matter. This blog had its moments of being a digital antheneum of spirtitual esoterica on many a thread. I found there were quite a few bright lights present. I will miss that as Marty winds it down..

  69. Mark C. Rathbun

    In due time

  70. I guess for some, stepping in shit moves from the shoes into the feet and remains there until the cows come home.

  71. Chris Mann

    There are people who never set foot in an org nor spent one dime, or minute in Scientology, yet for some reason covet and worship victim status. They apparently idolize and are utterly fascinated by anyone who is a victim of Scientology. People who die are held in the highest regard. Not as people, but as martyrs for the cause of victimhood. To be entertained they crave more destruction, more victims. People who could legitimately claim victim status are getting on with their lives and probably doing some good in their areas to the degree they are able to let go of this kind of activity and move on to something more positive.

  72. Dale Arthur

    Actually Lone Star, I did understand that Mark was referring to the fact that Jimmy3 uses a handle while Mark puts his identity out for all to see, and I thought his observation about the hypocrisy of it was appropriate, and smartly stated. So that wasn’t a good quote to have led by. I should have stated the facts as I see them more bluntly.

    Mark led off this post with a link to a rambling non-communicative passive aggressive 28 paragraph missive from Tia Marie: one long childish tantrum.

    Tia created a following around herself at the Bunker, including from some people over there whose writing I respect. I used to read some of the things she would say to people, and then reflect on how these followings get started around people who are so obviously mean and miserable. If she wants to talk about “group-think”, she ought to look at her own behaviors.

    Someone who still thinks flipping the bird is an original act, and represents herself with this stupid logo is hardly a person who “avoids conflict” as she so inaccurately describes herself.

    My sense is that the main thing they have in common right now is anger. That is never a good bond.

    Thank you for taking the time to respond. I always appreciate the effort.

  73. Mark C. Rathbun

    Your response to disaffection sounds eerily similar to an OSA PR rant.

  74. Just the facts

    From what I have been able to guess (complete conjecture on my part) about the motives of Tony O. to turn to Yellow journalism against M&M is that maybe he was upset about losing what he thought would be a longer playing story (and thus continued fodder & income for himself) and thus created a new “story”.

    Any other guesses?

  75. Dale Arthur

    Mark, eye roll. I give up. Good luck.

  76. Hiram – I completely agree with your statements about this blog.

    atheneum or athenaeum (ath uh nee’ um)
    1) an institution for the promotion of literary or scientific learning
    2) a library or reading room
    3) (capitalized) – a sanctuary of Athena at Athens, built by the Roman emperor Hadrian, and frequented by poets and scholars

    1) the temple of Athena at Athens, where writers and scholars met
    2) The Roman academy of law, literature, etc. founded by Hadrian
    3) a literary or scientific club
    Webster’s New World College Dictionary

    As long as this site remains on the internet it will remain a valuable reading room. It contains diverse and lively discussion of many timeless topics with contributions by many writers, poets and scholars.

  77. Well, thanks for appreciating my effort. I always appreciate being appreciated.

  78. Hiram A. Biff

    Richard, lets hope Marty keeps the blog around. Or creates a new one for that purpose, with scientology’s methodology given only the relevance it deserves when appropriate. Personality issues, asserting rightness, hurt ego’s and folks trying to get their stats up or deliver effective blows have been part of the landscape here. I think that so many posters have had their opinions, thoughts and beliefs handed back to them that some growth has surely come of that for those involved. I suspect most have gotten something from following this blog over the years. I surely have.

  79. I’ve never been in Scientology so take my view point or leave. I would agree with points made in the linked blog posts. I think it’s very easy to cult of personality online and extremely easy for a Scientology to leave the cult of Hubbard/miscaviage and latch onto Tony or Mike. I have a legitimate question and I don’t mean any offense to former members but at what point does it become sad and pathetic that once you are out of the cult each day is still focused on the cult. At what point do you just put it behind you, not talk about it anymore and move on. I know many have experienced trauma and torture and one doesn’t expect to be over that immediately but at what point is dwelling on the past a futile gesture.

  80. FYI: I think this ‘sinnsyknevin’ is a troll. Someone named ‘Zebulun Stock’ recently asked basically the same question @ Tony’s site, and then disappeared…

  81. Tom Gallagher

    Hi Marty!

    Matt Drudge has a few poignant comments about this subject in this brief video clip.

    Spoiler alert- He refers to Facebook, etc. as Ghettos…………..

  82. Just the facts

    I don’t know for sure sinnsyknevin . what I DO know however is that it is probably saner to focus on getting rid of a bad cult and get emotionally wrapped up in that instead of a music group or some musician that matters not. Interesting eh?

  83. Cyber Cults: Adressing the rightious inquery of Marty Rathbun:

    My answer: they are not different from other cults

    Beware for anybody who :”tries to ënlist” you online

    With love Niels

  84. “Bunkerite” is a classification.

  85. Well said, Hiram. Sounds right to me. As a newcomer I won’t add anything other than that I suppose Romans participating at the Aetheneum occasionaly got pissed off at each other while discussing laws and ideology for civilization. More below

  86. I think most ex scn-ists and never-ins who post on scn oriented blogs are philosophical types. Whether born that way or got interested from scn I suppose would be an individual matter. I believe I always felt something was missing from ordinary or everyday life.
    Never-in is just a descriptive and nonderogatory term. I believe many are escapees from other cults and appreciate the generally civil discussion here. Others may just have an interest in cultism in general, and scn has its own uniqueness in that respect.

  87. I have benefited greatly from studying topics and comments on the blogs since last August. I’ll give a specific.
    I have a narrow circle of aquaintances. I would previously called myself “non sociable” (not unsociable) meaning I felt I had little to say. I have come to enjoy engaging in conversation with strangers in supermarkets or other public places. I would not have done that before, and it has put more laughter in my life.
    I am now aware that I need not have something profound to say before engaging in conversation.

  88. You give up what? Trying to alter other people’s perspective by insisting they share your own view that the victim in this case was factually the perpetrator? Not surprised you gave up so quickly, folks around here stopped swallowing that bullshit when they left the cult in the first place. Anyone sliding back into that sort of behaviour will get no respect or agreement from me. Not that it matters, you have plenty over at the Bunker and ESMB so if it’s agreement you crave those options might make you happier.

  89. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    Facebook and all those social Systems on the Internet and also the Internet itself, are just a mirror of our culture and Society. In the good and in the bad.
    Without the Internet it wouldn’t be working at this fast Speed and in those big dimensions.

    Nevertheless, since eons People have been fooled by quacksalvers in an attempt to get a cheap and fast solution for their Problems.

    Ortega isn’t a Philanthrop and has no considerations for individuals. His purpose never has been to help Scientologists to decompress. It’s only a side effect.
    it is the old Story of Power, Control over people, Fame and Money.

    When Monique stopped court proceedings, he showed his real face. Why doesn’t she take the Money? I would!

    Quacksalvers always will find fools to sell their products.
    Somebody could make some calculations about how much Money Ortega already made out of his fans. I won’t. But People should just ask this question on his blog to become banned..I don’t know.

    There are so much quacksalvers on this planet in all Kind of subjects as Science, Medicine, Self-Help industry, Philosophy, Politics, Economy, Conspiracy theories etc. and Always there are individuals behind it, that Claim Philanthropy, but in fact are just doing it for Money and Power reasons.

    Just look at the success of Trump or Madoff, or others that will never be discovered as quacksalvers like Mother Theresa that will be pronounced as a Saint but in fact is just a Pr product of the Catholic Church
    This is so unbelievable!

    But on the other side there are also many People that can’t be fooled and some that calls out the quacksalvers. For sure they’ll be attacked…

  90. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    No, those are Facts and the conclusion may be true..
    Follow the Money…

  91. Thou speakest sooth 🙂

  92. Hi GMW – Your posts always keep me interested and laughing. From an eager would be salesman to a potential “genetic vehicle”. – laughter – Stephan King would love to pick up on that story.
    from wiki – Helena Petrovna Blavatsky – was an occultist, spirit medium and author who co-founded the Theosophical Society in 1875. Blavatsky described Theosophy as “the synthesis of science, religion and philosophy”. Sounds familiar to me – lol – After her death in 1891 the society eventually splintered off into a multitude of groups which also sounds familiar.

  93. singanddanceall

    that’s pretty cool, and I concur, same here.

    Like, hey, I like your shoes, or your shirt, or what about this weather. LOL

    Fun to be had.

  94. love bombing is scio-speak with no King’s English definition

    fair game 1) game that may be lawfully hunted 2) any legitimate object of attack or pursuit – Webster’s New World College Dictionary

    groupthink – I find no King’s English definition. I might say a major part of it is lack of or suspension of critical thinking. Someone else might add to that or interpret it differently.

  95. correction –
    groupthink 1) the practice of approaching problems or issues that are best dealt with by a consensus of a group rather than by individuals acting independently: conformity
    2) the lack of individual creativity or of a sense of personal responsiblity, that is sometimes characteristic of group interaction

  96. Path of Buddha

    Hi Richard,
    Great to hear from you. I am happy that you appreciate the humor in the story. I try to use “double irony” which my English Professor taught me in college. In the 1970’s I’m making a sincere effort to be “straight”. The environment is twisted with lies. The environment which presents apparent truth is trapping. Somehow you end up with “double irony”. The character in the novel is trying to escape a trap by going into a bigger one. Maybe a better way to say it is “a trap within a cult within a cult.”
    Let’s keep laughing at this.

  97. Mr Rathbun, you might enjoy my take on Going Clear and recent popular blogs…

    The closer one penetrates to the core of the onion of deception the worse the stench is, which is to a degree, by design, to discourage further inquiry..

  98. Love bombing isn’t Scientology speak. It’s a term used to describe an activity that cults in general do. Variations of it happens in Scientology. I don’t see it as harmful unless it’s intentional and insincere. Maybe that should be part of the definition: An insincere and manipulative showering of attention and praise on an individual intended to change their thoughts or decisions, or to get them to join or participate in a group activity such as donating money or joining a cult.

  99. Thank you for the correction, chrismann9. Love bombing appears in Wikipedia which I didn’t check. Wiki’s first sentence is “Love bombing is an attempt to influence a person by lavish demonstrations of attention and affection.”

  100. Hi Marty, Hope You are well. A few years ago I was doing trs and objs with a twin in the independent field. My supervisior was an ot8 who had
    been out of the co$ for many years. And his parents had been also expelled many years previous to this. We were all having a lively discussion
    about something in the course and I had read your books (I still think highly of them) and I mentioned that according to Marty….I no sooner had these
    words out of my mouth, than they fired back: “But Marty’s not a true scientologist”. I didn’t know it at the time, but this is a perfect example
    of the No True Scotsman logical fallacy. You can read/listen more about
    this here:

    I look back at this with great hilarity. But I think there is a lesson here as well. These were people who were not in the cult anymore. They were not being enturbulated by dm. They were were not stressed-out, tapped-out
    bubble dwellers. They were free. But their minds were closed. And so I conclude: Why would I ever want to discuss things with someone who has a closed mind and who thinks in logical fallacies. Isn’t that a complete waste of my time? I think it is. A closed mind is still the most expensive thing you can own. And it makes no difference whether you are in a cult or a church, in North Korea or the USA, in a bar or a university. At times it is humorous to see a closed mind in action. But mostly it is sad. Education is the cure; but You can’t educate someone who thinks they already know it all.

  101. Good, insightful article Arnie about how Going Clear got the religion angle wrong. Purposeful? Hmmmmm….

    Well, with regards to Lawrence Wright….what do he, Henry Kissinger, Dick Cheney, David Gergen, Robert Gates, Alan Greenspan, Susan Rice, Condoleezza Rice, John and David Rockefeller, and many others of that ilk have in common? All are members of the CFR.

    Just sayin’.

  102. Right on Roger! Very true words indeed. Love the “Quacksalver” term.

  103. George – You’ve said that you’re engaged in Buddhist writings so you may not wish to spend time on fiction. However, you already have the outline for a great short story! We all know the ending of your story along that line. You went into great detail with The Oracle and others about the original OT8 on the “Culture of Complaint” topic. That might have been one of the very few revelatory aspects of scn to be discussed. All the great intellectual debates about the plus points and out points of scn have already been done. Perhaps some long time participants on the scn blogs are just getting bored.

    If you follow through on a short story or novel, it would be really cool if the guy becomes the rat who gets the cheese and wrecks the trap on the way out!

    Off topic, but an interesting nature note. A mockingbird has taken up part time residence in a maple tree in my yard. Yesterday a squirrel was investigating the tree and the mockingbird ran him off! That made me think of your cat that ran off the raccoon. The bird and the cat both held their ground. The bird is a noisy critter and I was going to chase it away, but after that display of gumption I’ll just let it be. I might even begin to enjoy its happy if incessant chirping. smile

  104. Thank you for the links to Bruni’s article, Tia, etc.
    The comments sections of the blogs and online forums I have followed for the past 10+ years have ALL devolved, over time, into the like-minded connecting, agreeing, and chasing off of dissenting “trolls” that characterizes today’s Bunker. The pattern has been disappointingly similar – from Political blogs, to Hollywood gossip sites (I once checked in on 30 blogs/day during worst period of insomnia) where the proprietor has a distinct point of view. A community of frequent commenters finds common cause, then community (sharing kitten photos, photoshopped images and music videos), then begin to chase off dissent and different opinions. The number of comments don’t necessarily decline – at first – just number of unique screen names. The mean girls effect (hat tip to Rosalind Wiseman’s “Queen Bees and Wannabes” and “Masterminds and Wingmen”. Books on surviving adolescents, but also truths for adult group behavior ) Lurkers, like myself, drift away.

    I have enjoyed dropping in to read Mark’s posts, and think I understand his need to move on from both his fans and critics of each blog as his life evolves. The fiction writing is great! (reminiscent of John D McDonald – your own retreat onto the Busted Flush??)

  105. Errol, I read your post and am now confused. Do you think Marty is a (true) Scientologist? What does that mean? I thought he rejected LRH’s belief system and tech. Maybe Marty can clear this up. Thanksde

  106. I learn – (greatly condensed from wiki)
    dhamma (doctrine); pada (foot and by extension, path) – Dhammapada, Buddha’s path
    #133 Do not speak harshly to anyone; those who are spoken to will answer you in the same way. Angry speech is painful and retaliation may overtake you.

  107. Path of Buddha

    Thank you very much for the kind words. I appreciate your posts.
    Have given some thought to the idea of a work of fiction related to my story. You are correct in your comment about the Buddhist studies. My wife and I find quality time in reading, meditation, and now chanting. Chanting gets a bad wrap in the West but it has power when you understand the Pali words.
    I finally decided that I could write a book again when the story was so well organized that it just flowed out without effort. That could take a long time.
    You are lucky to have a bird now as a friend. It is actually a good omen.
    Marty’s Blog has provided an excellent resource for the discussion of Scientology. I learned a great deal over the last eight years. The discussion of religion in general has also provided great benefit. The in-depth coverage of topics is better than the one liners. Having been directly into the depth of Scientology, IMHO, creates a depth to a person which is difficult to comprehend by the general public. Over the years, we have lost a lot of friends simply at the very mention of the word Scientology. Rather than create a bridge, in some sense, it blocked the bridge.
    In a recent exchange with Professor Hugh Urban , Professor of Religious studies at Ohio State, I was brought great comfort in regard to Scientology. It seems that in the highest academic circles, the idea of original OTVIII has not only been validated and accepted as part of the religion, it will begin a journey of integration into its place in the universe of thought. As recently as ten years ago no academic study would even mention Scientology. OT VIII impacted so many lives that it now deserves to be placed in the history of religion. I was not the only one touched by OT VIII. It penetrated the depth of the entire 50,000 person group. Those who have not experienced Scientology tend to downgrade those of us who experienced it. There are eight billion on this planet and every one is unique. Need we laugh at an Eskimo when we would die in an hour north of the Arctic Circle?
    Hubbard was only a bridge from the Occult studies of the late 19th century into the 20th. He added the e-meter and the study of the mind. The original OT VIII with its references to the role of the serpent could have only been understood if he had not covered his tracks as he was probably in fear of plagarism.
    Much Metta,

  108. Running a blog takes time and costs money, particularly a daily blog. Mike Rinder and others also have donate buttons on their blogs. People writing books about scn make money.

    I like being a fan. It’s stimulating. I’m a fan of this blog and others.

  109. One cult, or another.

    Bunkerites, Martyzens, Scilons, anons, Republicans, xians.

  110. Cyber cults. Marty meet the world:

  111. I could never Imagine what it mean for you that there would me no Heaven

  112. Quod erat demonstrandum

    You never ask me to do that anymore, I will just deal with this Dale Arthur.

  113. Maybe It’s your hollow mind ?

  114. Dale, The honest response to Scientology is to be ANGRY real ANGRY

    I am still here and your religion will not take a hold in my country.

    Other than that: GO and save yourself

  115. Dale go love yourself

  116. Negativy, I noticed people wirh Autism like me are proned to it.

    I became allergic to it:

    I am contemplating taking over an Important task from my employer.

    I t will mean I am responsible

  117. We must milk the cows when they come home my bro.

  118. Always follow the money up to the 600 million dollar Hubbard accumulated when he passed away.

    The American dream

  119. That is actually from the dutch “Kwakzalver”

  120. Besides CFR I’d say they belong to biggest unnamed cult in the world, the one called psychopaths. Who seem to recognize each other, and know, there’s a man that I can work with for mutual power and MONEY. See Master Manipulator

    Nice to hear from you again, give my regards and a link or two to ESMB if you haven’t been banned yet

  121. Garbage, especially a few follow up tunes I glanced at – just going for shock effect. The melody isn’t bad. “Ghost” is a million times better

  122. Path of Buddha – continued – I’m an old rock and roller. Lone Star turned me onto Ghost. They have a song which I think mirrors scn and probably OT8. It’s called “From the Pinnacle to the Pit”. An animated video accompanies the song with subtitles: “What if man could learn the power of a god? In a sense, he would need god no longer, yes? You have been chosen to yield this power.” etc. laughter!

    Despite appearances, I find the group’s songs spiritual. I especially like “Cirice”. I don’t know how to transport a video, but they are on You Tube. Headphones recommended.

  123. I’m not surprised that some scholars of religion are taking an interest in OT8. Its supposed goal of at cause over matter, energy, space, time, thought and life would certainly rank high on the all time list of goals of religious exploration. smile

  124. Path of Buddha

    Hi Richard,
    Excellent video about the Occult. I like the music and the chanting.
    The video is in a way related to OT VIII. The Occult symbolism showing the light in the lower world conforms to Hubbard’s basic message that he was in the role of Lucifer. The woman is probably Isis or related to Isis. The symbols
    on the garments and the Buildings are aesthetic variations of standard Occult symbols. From the Pinnacle to the pit is a gnostic message for sure. The sensual nature of the video is most certainly Occult. I did not see a serpent which would have rendered the video complete.
    Hubbard softened the Occult message and put a lot of it in as myth. This allowed him to substitute the space aliens and the implants as demi-gods.
    The light belongs to the people is probably gnostic. The drinking out of the cup is the Occult sign which corresponds to the apple in the garden of Eden.
    Time seems to be of no consequence. The lightening is Zeus or some other god. The OT VIII is still in a trance. You can even see an OT symbol on the hat which Hubbard got directly from Occult sources. I think that the “T” in the Occult symbol circle is “Tau” which later was morphed to the word “Tao”.

  125. No not banned from ESMB. Voluntarily quit posting like so many others. Have no intention of returning.

    Thanks for the link. Have quickly scanned through it. Will read it thoroughly.

  126. Path of Buddha

    Hi Richard,
    Hubbard, as I recall, in a lecture did not support the idea of an astral body as shown in the video. However, the video does align with OT VIII since the astral soul arises from the body and becomes the powerful spirit or the OT.
    The triangles are occult symbols also shown in the video and align with basic Scientology which has occult origin. The Pope-like hat with the occult symbols mocks Christianity. This is occult, Scientology and OT VIII. The school scene at the beginning is artfully made into the occult idea of the “bridge” or the elevator to OT power. Electricity, although not known to the ancients, was quickly adopted by Hubbard and aligned with OT power. The dualistic nature of the universe, as manifested in electricity, did have occult meaning especially in the gnostic view.
    So I could have watched this video rather than spend all that time on the Freewinds. I was chosen to hold the power.

  127. Just the facts

    Ann, Marty answers ALL those questions in his book, “What Is Wrong With Scientology?”

  128. To see a fascinating presentation on where the old ancient symbols and god and goddess mythologies came from, I highly recommend this documentary ‘Symbols of an Alien Sky’ :

    A companion series of short 5 to 6 minute bites starts is here:

    I think these scientists and researchers have found the keys to unlock much of our past. The ancient sky looked nothing like it does today. The planets of our solar system were not where they are now just thousands of years ago. Very fascinating and intriguing to say the least. Highly recommend. You’ll come to see where the genesis of all the major religions and myths originated, and why there is a string of commonality with them all. Especially with the symbols.

  129. You’ve probably seen this vid, but if you haven’t, and for those who may also like to give it a shot:

    Beautiful song and certainly very spiritual.

    “….We’re hiding here inside a dream and all our doubts are now destroyed.
    The guidance of the morning stars will lead the way into the void.
    He is
    He’s the shining and the light without whom I cannot see.
    And he is
    Insurrection, he is spite, he’s the force that made me be.
    He is
    Nostro dis pater, nostr’ alma mater.
    He is…..”

  130. Hiram A. Biff

    Hello GMW. I watched the video Richard mentioned. Very entertaining. I saw Freemason symbols (square over compasses) on the groups of men holding initiations. The Tau is an ancient greek letter which is sued a lot in Freemasonry’s York Rite. Here is an article on it;

    Click to access The%20Tau%20and%20the%20Triple%20Tau.pdf

    I would not agree or disagree with the material in the article. I offer it just to give some history and uses of the symbol. There are others. Keep in Mind that Crowley studied and borrowed from several Masonic and magic related activities and squirreled it into his own rites. Then Hubbard may have mined that vein among the many he researched and borrowed from. But I do not thing that the Tao as we know it is was morphed from the Tau in any way or was the result of any of this. There may be overlaps or intersections of wisdom, but that is about it from where I sit.

  131. That last paragraph! LOL! Said by “an OT8” and obvious expert on comparative religion and religious/occult symbolism. Still laughing – more later

  132. GMW – I’m laughing with you not at you. I got the whole picture of “young George” tearing into OT8 at the Freewinds and myself busily working away at “my engrams” – laughter – Currently, at age 70, I claim the right to be on a mad-ass rush to Nirvana. Get ready to let loose of some of that power!

  133. Path of Buddha

    Hi Hiram,
    Thanks for the article. Very informative. I learned a lot.
    I cannot recall where I read the statement about Tau morphing into Tao.
    It might have been Blavatsky I don’t see the connection either; it was mentioned as something in the occult.
    I know very little about the Freemasons. Interesting to see the connection to Plato.

  134. Path of Buddha

    Beautiful song. There seems to be an almost endless stream of information and art related to this topic. Thanks. I enjoyed it.

  135. Hi Ann, I would urge you to go to the website that I mentioned: You Are Not
    So Smart . Here You will find various logical fallacies discussed in great detail. The question of whether Marty is a true scientologist is not relevant to a seeker of truth. I do believe that Marty is a seeker of truth and that his
    opinions are based on logic. And many of the ot7s and ot8s that I know are not seekers of truth and their opinions are not based on logic. Thinking is something that I have to work hard at. And I can tell You that I am taking my own advice and going to You Are Not So Smart and other websites like it.

  136. Hiram A. Biff

    Hi GMW. Masonic rites and degrees proliferated in the 18th and 19th century. All the degrees that relate to Egypt, the ancient Greeks, the Knights Templar, or the Old testament, etc, came from Masons looking to establish various pedigrees for Masonic teachings and history. A lot of this was in the era of Madame Blavatsy. Some of these organizations and rites were sanctioned by established Masonic Bodies, some were not. In the US, you have the Scottish Rite and York Rite. And the Shriners. These other rites, initiations and titles are all colorful additions to the subject, but that’s it. It is in these rites that one finds the Tau symbol in modern freemasonry. Trust me, most masons have no idea what it means. I have a ring with the triple tau symbol on one side but I had it made and I have my own interpretation.
    Masonic truths are universal. I have read articles comparing some of them to Plato. Parrallels with other teachings are many. The basic masonic teaching and initiation is found in the 3 degrees of any local blue lodge. My interpretation is that it is basically about subduing ones lower nature with their higher faculties and nature with the help of a higher power. Sort of reminds me of the 12 steps. There must be some truths there. For anyone interested in it they should contact their local Blue lodge. No one is asked to join. That is solely for the purpose of helping to ensure one is reaching on their own determinism ( they will get more out of it that way) and not being recruited or under pressure in any way.

  137. Lone Star – That’s a new video. Very nice. Many fans are being creative with Ghost music.
    For a rock group, Ghost generates a lot of philosophical discussion. On an earlier video of “He Is”, a commentor said insurrection, spite and disobedience is part of energizing the life force. Something like that.
    Wiki has an entry about “Cirrice” (Old English:”Church”) The video part was inspired by the movie “Carrie” (in which a troubled soul unleashes her telekinetic powers at a high school prom)
    Some of the comments are pretty humorous. Responding to criticism of the satanic aspects of the act, someone said “If it bothers you, just substitute God and Jesus for Satan and Lucifer and get into the music.” Another said “It doesn’t matter if you believe in God, Satan, Santa Claus or The Easter Bunny. This band is great!”

    “Forgive me, Father – I can’t stop listening to Ghost.” laughter

  138. Path of Buddha

    “If it bothers you, just substitute God and Jesus for Satan and Lucifer and get into the music.” Another said “It doesn’t matter if you believe in God, Satan, Santa Claus or The Easter Bunny. This band is great!”

    From the point of view of OT VIII, the above means that the implant from the Marcabs( demi-gods) is wearing out. The charge is going down fast and we need the “second coming”. Actually we also need the Marcabs to show up in space ships with electronic machines. During The Middle Ages, the charge was so strong that about 101,000 persons were burned alive at the stake. This has now been reduced to songs in which satan can be substituted for Jesus. The red light is flashing on Arcturus.
    I, for one, have been sleeping on my roof with a ray gun waiting for the Marcabs. If it’s written its true. So it all makes sense. 35,000 years ago there were green cities along the Amazon. Plato lived on Atlantis which had electricity and faulty plumbing which made it drop into the Ocean but Plato and Hubbard escaped. The ancient wisdom of immortality of titan gods was lost. Hubbard came along in 1952 and restored philosophy to its rightful place. How could those nasty scientists like Einstein mess it all up?
    I went to the sperm bank last week so that Hubbard could recruit someone, hopefully original female, to create his moonchild with psychic abilities. Harmony will rule when Horus the Egyptian hawk returns in the form of Crowley.
    Then under Hubbard’s leadership we can find a fertile delta and start building pyramids again. We can control all of those nasty demons in the underworld. According to Blavatsky, thesy were controlled bu perfume. Odd that Hubbard did not like perfume or the smell of detergent. Did he have demons on his case? In the meantime, enjoy the music; smell the roses.

  139. Path of Buddha

    Shoud read:
    According to Blavatsky, they were controlled by perfume.

  140. I wonder if anyone shares my sense of humor

    Tiago Perevia asks: My son likes to listen to this . . . is this a satanic band?
    The Rainmaker replies: Tiago Perevia Your son is the anti christ you must kill him now

  141. LOL – too many laughs! Careful George – This type of creative thinking might throw off your chanting and meditating for weeks. The monks might even toss you out of your temple if you start acting wierd. laughter

  142. singanddanceall

    Hubbard read Le Bon, as he told Heinlein in a letter to him:

    Cults, crowds, all the same, just following an idea, etc, ie the scientologist is a crowd:

  143. Happy International Yoga Day from a great soul in my spiritual lineage.

  144. Path of Buddha

    Hi Brian,
    Much Metta to you brother. Great video. We need 24 hour harmony in this world.

  145. I love you for being yourself and just throwing your(well thought) opinion about this.

    How about this song Richard ?

  146. I respect you and I love you for your openess and forwardness:

  147. Be yourself before you give your soul to another

  148. I love you two so much it’s shamefull.

  149. I am there my fellow Blow Hard

    but, there is no mystic past or future.

    Just people interacting with eachother.

  150. I am banned though

  151. Lone Star, you know it would serve “command intention” (Pardon my use of a key phrase…) to keep those who knew too much busy arguing with sockpuppets instead of out in the real world….

  152. True – Gurus are always harping about how “everyone” is “suffering”. You put yourself into that trap if you buy into it. Same thing as religion.

  153. Hey George! Greeting to you my Dharma brother!

  154. Be yourself and give your soul in service to all. Why just one? :-)’

  155. Funny Bhudist you 😉

  156. Richard you have a right to that view. And I can understand how you feel that way.
    Now it’s time to send goons into your trash:-)

    Given the track record of this topic, especially when blind faith is the foundation, it is reasonable to conclude as you have.

  157. Marty likes NAS ?

  158. Path of Buddha

    I have a question for you. I recently saw a picture of Hubbard that was taken in 1973 while he was hiding in Queens. When I was in New York in 1973, I was invited to participate in his project. However, I declined. My question is: “Do you think that the quantity and quality of the surrounding metta would have an impact on cult creation and cult attachment?” I say this because he does not look well in that picture. He would have been only 62 at the time.

  159. Richard OT8 is riddled with what L Ron Hubbard bought from a hypnotist in L.A. when he was in hiding.

    Besides in the Original OT8 Hubbard claimed to be 666

  160. Satanic bands do not exist

    Hubbard is Satanism

  161. Richard do you have an opinion about this song ?

    I am not being an ass, I just want to know what you think.

  162. singanddanceall

    going down the wrong path to examine Hubbard you are.

  163. The vaudeville vibe of postmodernjukebox is great. I’m more into the melody and rhythm of music. That song has too many lyrics for my taste and I didn’t want to get into the whole story. Something about she got jilted.

  164. The thought of myself being a teensy weensy little insignificant speck in the universe is fun to play with.
    The reality is that the universe wouldn’t even exist if I (meaning intelligent life) weren’t around to experience it. What would be the point?

  165. Some goofballs in the audience waving devil horns probably think they have a champion. They’ll figure it out later. I think the point was that if you ask a stupid question you get a stupid answer. Apparently Tiago was too lazy to read the comments and get an overview and asked a direct question – laughter

    I think that Peter Torres who goes by the handle ThetaClear probably knows about as much about scn tech as anyone one earth. One time on a blog he said “Don’t try to outthink Hubbard – You’ll lose”

    On June 5, 2016 on Mike Rinder’s “To Be or Not To Be” topic he announced that after 30 years he’d finally given up on trying to make scn into something useful.

  166. Path of Buddha

    You don’t give enough information for an in-depth response. Please expand your idea.

  167. Greetings George, could you rephrase the question. I’m not understanding it.

  168. Pingback: Scientology Floggers | Moving On Up a Little Higher

  169. Harpoona Frittata

    “They crave the wrongness like it’s really good heroin.”
    Your analogy there is a good one! Just as opiates provide users with a sense of euphoria while simultaneously altering the synaptic connectivity of the brain to make achieving it ever-more difficult with repeated doses, Scn experiences in auditing and group mind settings provided many with such peak experiences that, years later, and long after the brain’s been altered through subsequent negative associations with the church’s heinous behavior, they’re still craving what they can never again achieve.

    Elron described the phenomenal experience of drug use a “release surrounded in mass.” But because any euphoric, orgasm-like experience – whether precipitated extrinsically, through the use of psychoactive substance, or intrinsically, via therapy or contemplative practice – activates the same deep brain centers associated with reward, so that chasing that feeling and trying to replicate it endlessly never works.

    Stuck in an endless loop of feeling deeply compelled to pursue what they most desire at a very primary biological level of compulsion, while simultaneously being repulsed at a much more cognitive level of response to the heinous behavior of the unreformed church, these folks may have left Scn, but Scn has never left them.

    To end on a note of hope and optimism: Equanimity in the face of pleasure and pain, success and failure, is a path worth exploring if you haven’t already been introduced to it. The deep brain structures and their experience-dependent associative networks of connectivity that have been formed over a lifetime of experience don’t change easily or quickly, but THEY ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE and therein lies the hope for all of transformation!

    If the concept of God is useful to you on whatever path that you’re on, consider this: God is love; love is all…and all is change!

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