Fearsome Scientologists

David Letterman nailed the personality of the corporate Scientologist, still apparently understood by public opinion as “Scientologist” without any modifier.   Please see the story – and particularly the video clip of his interview with Amy Adams.

David Letterman on Scientologists

Note how Adams is lost for words, and her recognition exhibits by genuine laughter, when Letterman tells her that is how she too feels.  Also, listen to the audience agreement with Letterman’s evaluation.  Unfortunately folks, that is what we have to work with.   That is the legacy of Miscavige.

Fortunately, hopefully over time we can change that reality.  I cover pretty thoroughly HOW Letterman’s reality came to be – the process by which the reality he is correctly observing came to be – at chapters 7 through 10 and 13-14 of my book What Is Wrong With Scientology?   I cover some suggestions of how Scientologists might free themselves of it at chapters 15 and 16. Perhaps as more Scientologists understand that, they can naturally cease being what the public has come to know as fearsome.

184 responses to “Fearsome Scientologists

  1. Gern Gaschoen

    There is absolutely *nothing* scary in Scientology. Thats sort of, entirely the point – you’re going to wake up, more and more, see more and more, and become less and less bothered by anything, scary, funny, silly, or otherwise.

    Otherwise, why be doing it? Scientology, applied, improves ones life. Dave could find some Scientologists who are really *not* scary to talk about it, nor are they scared to talk about it – but probably not Church of Scientology, Corporate Scientologists, however. Those guys are afraid of a lot of things ..

  2. If one were to ask for a one word description of Scientology by the general public, I am going to say the answer would be “cult”.

    To answer Gern above, I like being bothered by the scary, the funny and the silly and the otherwise – part of life. Part of growing.

    But to all those seeking and Independent Scientology movement, I wish you all the success and I think you can achieve it – it needs reform and you can do it.

  3. You are changing the reality by eliminating some of the fear for non-Scientologists (like me). Months ago, I wouldn’t even have posted on this site. As a result of your work and other events this year, I feel free to begin to interact without fear. So, you are creating an effect, lessenning the fear, and making an environment where folks are willing to “stick their foot in the water”. Keep it up – once the current CoS fades out and independent Sci becomes what folks think of when the word comes up, the transition will be complete. It will take some more time, no doubt, but you and others like you have started the right process to cause the change.

  4. miscavigeisscaredofsam

    This is a reflection of how real people regard Scientology and Scientologists. It would be very funny were it not so tragic.

  5. Letterman hit the major point.
    scientology is the biggest backfire of the century.
    After WWII, you have secrets, mystery and hidden narratives.
    Along comes the internet after the death of Ron Hubbard,
    and the expectation is freedom of information and thought.
    Add miscavige with his punching bag mentality, and the result
    can only be fear.

    May all hiiden narratives be open to the public!

    George M. White

  6. As a public scientologist, working with the public, I found pretty much the same response in the ’70’s. Of course it wasn’t scary to me because I looked into it, but to others, apparently they heard the bad press and most were closed off to it and would always end up warning me. Guess it’s only for brave people.

  7. i got a huge kick out of that interview. It’s so real. Letterman nailed the situation right between the eyes. Humor is the rejection of outpoints. So a humorist has to have the ability to spot outpoints and bring them up in clever ways. He’s brilliant in this interview and exposes the ugly legacy of the Sociopath of Scientology.

  8. May all hidden narratives be open to the public!

  9. I am looking for the opening weekend gross, position with other fims,
    and GBR (Gross Boxoffice Reciepts) When it goes to CD and cable TV.
    If it is a bigger draw than Mission Impossible or Searching for Nemo.
    I saw Battlefield Earth twice in empty theaters.
    Popcorn at the ready , START !

  10. FEAR ~~ more about.

    1) Anyone who knowingly criticizes David Miscavige will have the wrath of God borne down on him with punching, beating and even spittal right in his face and eyes.
    2) Any media that take up stories disparaging Scientology will get fearful huff and puff letters from Gary Soter pretending he will reserve every right to put the fear of litigation into their very souls, which litigation will have continuity through successive lifetimes.
    3) Anyone who speaks out against David Miscavige will have scary Alfred Hitchcock type hate sites posted on the web to make the attackers shiver and shake with fear.
    4)The New Mexico and Petrolia, California and Twin Peaks, California will permanently keep mug shots of the bitter defrocked apostates engraved on Titantium plates that Author Services will fund by creating and selling new grotesque Sci Fi paper prints framed in metal.
    5) The names of bitter defrocked apostates will be made to fear the wrath of Miscavige one way or the other as they may be sued on this planet and in perpetuity throughout the universe, including but not limited to The Solar System.
    6) Names of Religious Haters seeking to fulfill their “religious hate filled agenda” will be turned over to Attorney General Eric Holder and Kamala Harris Attorney General of California as they are $$$$safepointed and understand the truth and veracity of Scientology black lists.
    7) Miscavology threatens to batter, beat, punch, slam to the floor, assault, spit on, send to the bilges, send to clean drainage pipes, drain every last dime in vulture regging while cancelling all previous certs and statuses and making anonmyous calls to the FBI on your criminal past.

    If you do not feel fear, realize something is very wrong with you. Now please pick up the phone and donate to the New Libraries in Africa and certain Banana Islands, operators are standing by for your generous donation.

  11. I well recall how “not scary” Travolta used to be discussing scientology with Oprah.
    I also recall too well just how incredibly worrisome Tom Cruise’s service facsimiles and forceful attitude were on Matt Laurer’s show. Borderline scary to me. Very scary to some of my non-scientology friends and family.

    In the World Out of Comm Eval from the late 70’s Ron describes a major out point as “added, inapplicable service facsimiles: Teachers, Supervisors.”

    Like all things “miscavige” the tech has been 180 degrees reversed so one is now guilty if he refuses to wear the mutually agreed upon service facsimile which LRH considered an out-point. Miscavige considers it part and parcel of the “true scientology beingness.” Something like “scare the shit out of them so they will obey you.”

    Sure is a lot of ignorance one needs to wade through in order to get anything decent done on this planet. From my experience, it goes way better without the service facsimile. You really can’t clear a terrified or a cowed PC.

  12. Oh Karen you are a writer! Nice!! It is apparent now that Miscaviage’s personality shines through and replaces what was once Scientology. Sue Wilhere is right: David Miscaviage is Scientology.

    ML Tom

  13. Claudio Lugli

    Marty you are right.
    This is Miscavige legacy and we have to cope with it.
    Just imagine for a moment if…….. a theta, prosurvival, not evil intended guy would have followed LRH advices and lead the church instead of this terrorist…… and if he would have done it to REALLY clear and help this planet and mankind.
    Those would have been the media reactions?
    Don’t think so.
    We will change this.
    The only way is to USE Scientology and let results and theta speak of itself

  14. martyrathbun09

    What you might also not be seeing is Tom, John, et al’s publicists negotiating appearances on the condition no tough questions about Scientology arise.

  15. Theo Sismanides

    Scientology somehow makes it to get a lot of publicity (in a good or bad way) in the last year. Be it through all the shows we saw and the interviews Indies did, or through Tom’s divorce or now through a film The Master, it keeps drawing attention. Even the Idle Orgs are getting a lot of attention from various State and countries officials in inaugurations days.

    This is interesting. I am just following some things here just to have some idea.

    This film has a lot of power in it and has been advertised a lot as presenting actually Scientology’s founder. The broad broad public can get an idea of Hubbard even through the film.

    Letterman smartly says to Amy Adams “you are scared, it’s not easy”. That’s a very light touch, it’s sort of reach and withdraw tactic if you don’t want to be overexposed. It can be humour too. But it injects the idea of Scientology there. The subject remains Scientology but in a light touch.

  16. The clip is both funny AND sad. I think, like Letterman, I WOULD be scared if I met a Miscavaddict (especially after watching “that” TC video)… But I’m not scared of Mr. Rathbun nor Mr. Rinder, who seem everything that is caring, sincere and genuine.

    Keep smiling!
    IEG xx

  17. Theo Sismanides

    In other words are they preparing Miscavology for this planet? That has been a question for me and still is. It can serve them better than any other religion right now. Except for one thing, us, the Indies.

  18. The technology isn’t scary but the church sure has turned out to be. That’s why people consider it to be a cult. Cute clip though. At least it got a few good laughs.

  19. How TC will react after reading Karen’s comment:

  20. Laughter! 2FF!

  21. Karen, you outdid yourself on this one, especially #4. I loved it.

  22. Ist & 2nd phemonmena were only deliniated by Scientology Technology not invented by it. All great civilizations come to pass by their inability to study. The fundamentals of life never take a holiday. Education is not necessarily the answer, the willinginess to know the truth is, and that takes some sort of an ability to study.
    And all this prempted by help? Yeah… there’s some work to do and patience to exhibit.
    What exhibits on the 3rd Dymanic stage is astounding!

  23. I guess my quantum synchronistic entanglement prediction does not need to be interpreted using the (informational) entropic uncertainty principle after all.

  24. I think I am still getting rid of that stuff. I mean, for years I thought I was on to the real deal and I was part of a group that alone knew “the way out”.
    You become very isolated and think of yourself as above regular “Wogs” and the whole of civilization is described as insane and “middle class PTSness” for example. I feel like this made it impossible for me to live life.
    It leaves you so the only thing you can do that makes sense is keep plugging away in the Church. Keep grinding away on your Bridge. Keep coming to events and donating money because that makes you special. It means you are right in believing these things. You are the 1% of the 1% or the top 10% or the upper 10% or however it goes.
    You are a member of the only group that can salvage mankind. And you are on route to rediscovering your immortality and super powers.

    Unfortunately if you are for example a business owner trying to force an employee into the org for his own good you probably come across as a weird, arrogant cult member. Thats probably why little dissemination and real FSM’ing is occuring. People dont want anything to do with whatever is making you like that. And in my experience, people who still disseminate are not doing it for the good of the person. They are doing it for “stats” or their own of purpose reasons. They feel it makes them “gung ho” or maybe it’s for eligibility or whatever. But selectees are chewed up by the orgs. They are not helped.

  25. martyrathbun09

    MaBu, I took out the link because this was already brought to my attention and I intend to post about it soon.

  26. Ok. θ

  27. test

  28. This clip is very understandable! I recall when one would be aglow and proud (proud does not = arrogant)to be a Scientologist. What Dave via OSA has created is a Gestapo type group. This is broadly seen with modern communication i.e. the internet.

    Also, after the Anderson Cooper and BBC reports even a slightly sane person would be smart enough to stand the F down at least for a while.

    The end result will be the same as it has been for others like him – Hussein, Napoleon, Hitler. After they have destroyed all they could and wreaked all the damage using those blindly loyal – whom they cared nothing for:
    Others are left behind to pick up the pieces.

    Marty it would be interesting to see a chronological list of the absolutely insane “PR” blunders made by him just in recent years. Not Tech just PR. If we added Tech to it OMG that would be one long list.

  29. Tom Gallagher

    Like any sane person, Letterman, is curious about Scientology. What’s new? We’re all spiritual beings somewhat lost on this LONG journey anyway and we intimately and knowingly understand there are ways out.

    So Hubbard provided a chart and some tools to cruise through some rocky outcrops and shoals. The destination isn’t necessarily some shangri-la.

    Most folks are inclined to say thanks for a safe passage.

    A few cast blame for their own sunken boat. Such is life.

  30. Jethro Bodine


    Of course I could add things like:

    1) expensive, draining sec checks to “find your crimes against COB”

    2) late night (3 AM) ambushes from the IAS vulture registrars (Pomerantz, Becker, Roberts, etc.),

    … but you captured the fear factor extremely well. I could call the existing C of S, the “Church of Blackmail, Lies, Narcissism, Kidnapping, Out-Exchange, Torture and Extortion”, but that’s gilding the lily.

  31. This is why people would rather read “expose'” book on Scientology rather than LRH’s books on Scientology.

  32. martyrathbun09

    Good point.

  33. I can understand you frustration but you need to identify as “independent scientologists” because being first the church of scientology incorporated has the public view of scientologist. Explain the difference.

    Meanwhile I contributed to another LULZ blog comments section.


    Note I’m working to reinforce the distinction between church of scientology inc and scientology.

  34. Joe Pendleton

    I don’t think public figures have anything to worry about anymore as far as retaliation goes from the CoS. Currently Miscavige and his CoS have zero credibility with the public. He has made the CoS (and what the public thinks of as “Scientology”) pretty much a laughingstock. If credibility is at zero, it will only continue to descend into negative realms with this new movie, which appears to be almost completely about LRH and Scientology (see Mark Headley’s point by point dissection of the script on The Daily Beast website). Anderson Cooper and nbc for example have suffered exactly zero consequences for their reporting. The only folks who the Miscavige church can really hurt are current and ex Scientologists and the ultimate penalty of course is severe loss of family, friends and loved ones,as well as business connections. Those are the only “teeth” the CoS has left. Scientology is now tabloid entertainment. Tony Ortega’s column is kind of like what Dickens’ work was in the mid 19th century in England; folks waiting for the latest installment in the continuing drama/comedy that has become Scientology. And Miscavige’s voice becomes more “sing-songy” with every event and his pompadour keeps growing slowly (what is it with his hair?) – I’d be shocked to learn that he DOESN’T drink before his performances. High comedy? Tragedy? Both? You decide.

  35. EnthralledObserver

    I’m curious about Scientology, but I don’t want to ‘try’ it in order to know what it’s all about, nor do I want the only proof that it does anything productive or posiitve (or unproductive or negative) to my life to be from my own personal experience with it. The fear of Scientology is present because there is no official data to know for sure just what you are subjecting your mind in participating in the ‘tech’. If I take a medicine/drug/treatment it’s been tested and documented what effects and side-effect it may have on me, I can make an informed decision to participate or not. With Scientology a first timer is not fully informed about what the tech will ‘do’ chemically, physically, etc. – correct me if I am wrong, I am only going by what I have read on other people’s experiences.
    I am curious about Scientology, but I don’t want to try it… I just want to know what it’s all about… but you’re not allowed to ask, not allowed to be shown unless you ‘do’. That in itself is fishy to me, and induces fear.
    If Scientology wants this ‘fear’ to go away the full, open transparency is needed.
    What I’d like to see is an example of a session transcribed or video (identities hidden or not, doesn’t bother me) of what exactly goes on during auditing and examples of the content of courses. Obviously I’m not prepared to pay anything for this knowledge, but I guess if ‘helping’ the world/population was the order of the day for Scientology no-one would ask me to, right?

  36. Amy Adams is great.

    Curiously, she immediately begins to fumble upon Letterman initially asking about Scientology. She squirms and becomes tongue-tied, and then quickly gives a pat answer of denial, almost as if she was groomed by either her agent, her publicist or the movie studio. It looked rehearsed.

    I know very little actual data about this movie, but I did see the trailer. In my view, there is no doubt it’s brushing very closely against LRH and his philosophy-turned-religion.

    The very unfortunate part in all of this, is that the wrong target is apparently being attacked. (I’ve not seen said movie but the trailer wasn’t exactly LRH-friendly).

    After over three decades of being in charge, THIS is where COB has taken things.

    If actual Scientology had been occurring all along, from the very highest levels, no movie studio would have any slightest interest in attacking. For to do so would be suicide.


  37. martyrathbun09

    I have a different (and possibly wildly inaccurate) take on the likely content and impact of the movie. That is, based on the involvement of an actor of Hoffman’s skill and a director of Anderson’s, I bet while they paint the Master as a con, they also make him human and the audience will have some level of sympathy (ala Bush at least looking likeable when Stone hammered him, and the same with Clinton in Primary Colors). To do a one dimensional slam job would be way below the pay grade of this calibre of artist. One lone viewpont. We’ll see.

  38. EnthralledObserver

    Not for ‘brave people’, but I’d say for people ‘willing to risk it’… there is a difference.

  39. David Letterman should be afraid, as any sane dialogue with a cult Scientologist (not an independent Scientologist) could result in you being attacked like no other. Here is an example of what happened when I forwarded an email (1/3/12) to a cult Scn from Debbie Cook exposing the non LRH directives being take by the CofS, Maggie B responded to my email in the following way:

    “LRH said that some just don’t make it. You and your loser husband are ones that won’t. Do NOT forward me your entheta!!!!!!”
    And that was probably in 30 font, bold, etc… The freaky part is that I was only forwarding LRH policy that they are suppose to be so die hard to “follow” but don’t really follow. These cult Scn have turned into Miscaviage attack werewolfs and don’t wait until nightfall to turn, its an immediate programmed response. I’m sure Letterman is aware of Tommy Davis’s werewolf attacks on reporters, so wonder they are afraid to ask anything….

  40. I am not going to clear my MU’s on this, refuse, refuse, refuse, but I will clear my MU’s on LRH writings, so you lost me on “quantum synchronisic…blah blah blah”, don’t care and won’t take the time….But put up some tape or writing of LRH talking about this and I’ll definitely take the time, have to chose my battles as time is of the essence and I chose LRH.

  41. Betsy,

    I dont think Letterman has anything to fear at all.

    The RCS is a toothless paper tiger these days.

    In spite of their chest pounding and threats from lawyers, they are completely powerless to do anything about the press. So much has gone down now that they did nothing about that they could never sue as they have no reputation left to protect. But more than that, the “man” who “is” Scientology is terrified of the media. He will no longer show himself in public for fear of being “ambushed” and being asked about beating people up, his relationship with Tom Cruise, his luxurious life style, his phony stats etc. And even more of a nightmare for him would be being forced to testify under oath…. He ONLY appears at “Grand Openings” of new “ideal” orgs — and those “appearances” are completely stage managed with massive security, strictly limited entrance and 10 foot fences so the riff-raff cannot even catch a peek of the great leader.

    They truly are incapable of doing anything. And the media know it.

    Hell, they know the church is so scared they will not have a spokesperson make ANY statement on camera or on audio. The masters of communication are utterly incapable of talking.

    Miscavige is a preening parakeet living in a gilded cage of his own construction.

    It sucks to be Miscavige….

  42. Marty I can really see that. Mike turned me onto the Big Love TV series. Despite the unusual nature of their beliefs, the take away was that they are people too, with the same kinds of normal human issues and problems we all have. The circumstances were different, but the fundamentals were all the same. I was amazed that it wasn’t actually negative. And now we have a Mormon running for president.

  43. LMAO, spot on Mike!

  44. Besty, I received the exact same respond to my e-mail from Maggie Bell who used to be a “good” friend. She is extremely PTS. She was staff at OC org for years and never did PTS/SP course. After she became a public, and I was still in, I tried hard to get her do the PTS/SP course so she could handle her miserable confused life but she would always come up with excuses. She always refused to apply tech to her life, but at the same time she was out there trying to get the “Admin-Know-how” into other people businesses. Many businesses (her Dentist clients) failed as a result of her misapplication of scientology tech. Now Maggie has her son in the Sea org. She knows deep down that something is majorly wrong, but her PTSness has blinded her to see the right why (David Miscavige). Maggie like many kool aid drinkers has unhandled ser-fac.

  45. Or a white tapeworm sucking on the inside of a dried up carcass of a deer.

  46. +100%

  47. Can anyone direct me to where I can get a copy of the original “world out of comm” eval? I read it when it came out & would like to read it again.

  48. Ditto. When someone uses, but doesn’t define, words that are likely to be misunderstood by most of the readers, I assume they don’t want others to understand what they’re saying. And I keep scrolling on down to the next comment.

  49. Meant to say “same response”.

  50. Mike Rinder
    Superbly well stated.

  51. About 10 years ago, I brought in 4 people to do a basic course at my local org.
    All 4 were long gone within a week.
    One of them told me that on his second night on course, the basic course sup was hitting on him to buy a lifetime membership.
    He couldn’t believe that anyone could be so money hungry.
    That was the last time that I brought anyone into the org.

  52. I’ve been hooked on Debbie’s email all year long, and astounded at the responses Kool Aid drinkers have had to it (despite of her references to LRH policies, and evidence of tech and policy perversions). Here, for what it’s worth, I’d like to share the last few paragraphs of her message (not that the “uncured” robots even read it):

    I am not trying to do anything other than affect a change in serious off policy actions occurring. My husband and I have most of our family and many many good friends who are Scientologists. I have not been real interested in sticking my neck out like this.

    However, I also know that I dedicated my entire adult life to supporting LRH and the application of LRH technology and if I ever had to look LRH in the eye I wouldn’t be able to say I did everything I could to Keep Scientology Working if I didn’t do something about it now.

    We all have a stake in this. It is simply not possible to read the LRH references and not see the alterations and violations that are currently occurring.

    You have a very simple obligation to LRH. Don’t participate in anything off policy, and let others know they should not either. If every person who reads this email does nothing more than step back from off-policy actions we would have changed direction. If we took all that energy and directed it into auditing, training and raw public dissemination, we would be winning.

    And that is what I wish for you and all of us as we ring in this new year.


    Debbie Cook

  53. The fear of ANY other religion is present because there is no official data to know for sure just what you are subjecting your mind in participating...

    This is the same with any other religion.

  54. People Helper

    I am under the radar right now but will be performing a doubt formula and posting it shortly. The PR that Scientology has out right now is proof positive that the tech is perceived as what the corporate church is.

    The fact of the matter is that RCS members are afraid to answer questions which causes interest in the subject to wain, this is not what LRH envisioned..

  55. “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink”.

    This is even more true of human beings.

  56. Yep, the woman is a wreck, we know a person she borrowed money from for her bridge that was never intended to be paid back, nor will it, criminal exchange is what she is about now, as is the whole of the CofS with their IAS, Ideal Org, Super Power dono’s, give and get nothing in exchange. Karma is a bitch….

  57. “Humor is the rejection of outpoints”
    I only remember Ron saying “humor is rejection”. Did you add the “outpoints”. Makes TOTAL SENSE!

  58. +1

  59. Marty, you say:
    “David Letterman nailed the personality of the corporate Scientologist, still apparently understood by public opinion as “Scientologist” without any modifier. ”
    I agree but you did a lot to make the difference in the press and on this blog. But you (we) are up against 60 years of there being just one Scientology. But people DID start to make a difference. On a one to one level they (to my big surprise) make it very easily. Personally, I never believed Scientology would be disseminated other than on a one to one, word of mouth level.

  60. Big Love was awesome. Sad to see it is done.

  61. threefeetback

    The Pipsqueak of Scn Inc has succeeded with making Scientology a household word, synomyous with scary, fear, fraud, cult, etc; depending on who you ask. The still-stuck-in are afraid to disseminate and the interested are afraid-to-ask.

    With the long hot summer continuously ramping up the heat on the SUBJECT of Scientology, it seems like an excellent entry point, into the mainstream, for the Independent Field, would be to enlighten the Attorney Gerneral of Florida, Pam Bondi, as to her ‘buddy’, Greta, being a self-serving dupe while continuing to educate Pam to the fact that atrocities in Clearwater are sourced in Hemet. (Marty to use his Florida radio host connection, etc to get her attention and interest?) She would need to get Jerry Brown, Govenor of California, with his Attorney General, Kamala Harris, to expose and resolve this PROBLEM.

  62. Marty: Thanks for all you do. With your permission I will post this here. I can’t think of a better place to do so.

    (Poem to a murdered Sea Org Member)

    The last time I saw You
    There was gold in your hair
    Your thoughts made things
    Your limbs were passionate
    Enough to move earth, fire
    Water and air

    You played with life then
    Joyous as you went
    The world your toy box
    A game – and You!
    Royal blue Game Maker

    A Chairman Of The Bored
    And Dying broke you
    Pieces scattered – shattered space
    I tried to warn you: “He could not
    Erase love in Man and emerge
    This side of disgrace.”

    So now, remember – know this:
    The last time I saw You
    With not but truth to declare
    I was touching on forever
    And You were beautiful
    Naked and bare

    Poet Laureate 2012

  63. Marty,

    Your take could, perhaps, prove itself out here. After all, the trailer’s job is to create controversy to hook the viewer.

    Hoffman is a three dimensional actor (although, unlike much of his work, he seemed bored and quite one-dimensional in Mission Impossible 3, in my humble opinion), as is Anderson as a director.

    Whatever this movie turns out to be, I’m sure it will be rich in content.

    The popcorn awaits…

  64. Cured Robot and Pat (and others),

    My original comment also had explanation and links.

    Marty edited my comment and took away the rest of my comment, because he will write an article about the subject. My educated guess is that he wants to avoid a thread about the subject here, and let the readers comment on the subject after he publishes his article.

  65. scilonschools

    “This is a reflection of how real people regard Scientology and Scientologists. It would be very funny were it not so tragic.”

    It is also a reflection of how ‘REAL’ Indie etc Scientologists with clear vision now regard the Organisation they worked so hard and selflessly to build, even more tragic!! 🙂

  66. threefeetback

    One would guess that LRH figured that ALL he had established in Scientology would rather easily handle this brat.

  67. test2

  68. Awesome Karen! Here’s to the Banana Islands!


  69. One think to think about regarding the demise of Hussein, Napoleon, and Hitler is that Iraq, France, and Germany still exist.

  70. Gern Gaschoen

    The scary, funny, silly and otherwise parts of life that you choose to enjoy/be scared of: up to you.

    But in the Scientology technology, everything is designed to get you through that material with ease. There are scary things out there in everyones case – Scientology is not supposed to make those things worse for you, but bring you into a condition where you are definitely not hindered by them any more, spiritually or otherwise.

    I’d love to see Letterman do some Self Analysis on his show. It would work. Plus, his line “I want to be a Scientologist” should be considered a serious win, even if it was delivered in jest. Thats still a postulate, underneath – maybe he sees the abilities and competence of public Scientologists, but just doesn’t want to have to deal with the crap put on their plate by the organization ..

  71. The cast of The Master have also clearly been very thoroughly briefed that it is NOT a film about Scientology! Perish the thought!

  72. Steve, please! I’m trying to have some breakfast.

  73. Luckily for you there are many demo sessions Ron recorded over the years. I am not sure how to access them. I will say that most auditing consists of one person (an auditor) asking another person (the preclear) a question, and the preclear answering it. Questions range from things like “recall a time when you were happy” or “look around the room and find something that is really real to you.” There are NO drugs. There is NO surgery. There is no physical contact except in a couple of the “objective processes” (“Place your hands against mine, follow them, and contribute to their motion.”).

    Even the dreaded “Sec Checks” are really (when done correctly) benign. A sec check (or confessional, really) is a list of questions that have been dreamed up that are examples of what someone MIGHT think is a transgression. In other words, an action someone might think is wrong. Hence, on the Johannesburg sec check, there is a question about “Have you ever received any illegal diamonds?” If there was a golf confessional, a question might be “Have you ever coughed on purpose when your opponent was putting?” The auditor asks the question. The auditor does not go “Jack Bauer” on the preclear. There is no whip. In a proper session, there is no judging. There is no “Yes you did you SOB, and I know it!” Just a question. The e-meter is helpful because it will react if there is some mental “baggage” or “charge” associated with the question. The auditor doesn’t know what that charge is, just that there is something there, so he may say “what was that? Did you think of something there?” which helps the PC find it. It could be that he did indeed cough on a close putt, but didn’t mean to – yet he feels guilty about it. It could be something else. It could be he did cough on purpose because there was money on the line. He confronts this misdeed and looks at how he justified doing it (“the guy was a jerk, so he deserved it…”, etc.), and finally, gets the charge off. At the end of all of this, he takes full responsibility for it, and is unlikely to do it again, and more importantly, feels better about golf, and is likely to play a little bit better. He’ll enjoy it more for sure.

    But again, this all happens with no coercion on the part of the auditor, and only because the preclear considered that coughing on purpose during golf was bad.

    You can understand why people like me are pissed off at Miscavige. There is NO doubt that the auditor/preclear relationship is a sacred trust. That relationship and trust is a beautiful thing. It really is. And Miscavige has killed it in the church.

    But, back to you – You know what? Find yourself a copy of Self Analysis and read through it. I think you’d like it.


  74. One real Clear (not even OT, although it would be even better) would make Scientologists perceived in a public eye as a lot less fearsome and a lot more friendly, and actually desirable. Well, it didn’t happen yet. 60 years +.
    Or did it?

    The problem is – there no Clears (or OT’s), as defined by LRH. None that I observed. The vast majority of Scientologists are really well-intentioned people. Also, well indoctrinated and deeply immersed (word-clearing, auditing, false data stripping in everything LRH). Add time, money and trust invested. Even when scared and confused and brainwashed into committing abuses on their fellows, by both DM and LRH.

    Corporate, Independent, Freezone or otherwise.

    I am sorry, if it’s a bit depressing. I am an ex. Try to be one.
    You can always go back to be a theta believer, I guess.

    Also, there is life to live, to learn and enjoy.
    Independently in true sense.

  75. You know, one thing I did was reply to some church emails some questions about Debbie Cook. Here is the letter I sent the AOLA MAA:

    I received your voicemail. Just so you know, I don’t take phone calls and I asked several times for that number to be purged from my CF file. Obviously it was not. I prefer email or letters because phones have no memory, as LRH says.

    The question I have is regarding Debbie Cook, the former CO of FSO. Is she declared? Why did Karin Pouw call her a squirrel and an apostate in USA Today only three days after she sent her email to some friends? Why was she sued for what appeared to me to be accurately quoting LRH policies regarding membership and ideal orgs?

    Regarding her testimony, how can that kind of abuse happen at Int? What is being done to address it?

    I ask because to me this was a very public injustice done to an honorable woman and Sea Org veteran. This was handled so badly that I have to think something is being done to prevent these kinds of mistakes occurring in the future. What is being done?


    Mark Patterson

    Guess what the response was… Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. I sent a number of emails of this nature, and only ONE response from a guy from Philly, who replied “Has it occurred to you that Debbie may just be lying?”
    I replied thus:

    Sure, but it is unlikely given she was under oath
    and she was sued for accurately quoting LRH
    in her email.

    Even if she lied, why would Karin Pouw call
    her a squirrel just a couple a days after she
    sent her email to her friends? Whatever
    happened to Ethics & Justice? If I quote LRH
    will I be called a squirrel in USA Today by
    the church?

    This concerns me.

    No response. Except I am still getting promo emails from the lot of them.

    Isn’t that amazing?

  76. Well, I never managed to view the Letterman interview of Amy. I did manage to watch the first two and a half minutes of Tom Cruise’s video about his “dedication” to scientology. Having spent from beginning Sept 1963 till end Nov ’64 at St Hill doing the St Hill Briefing Course and watching Ron Hubbard lecture three times a week (with brief breaks here and there)and graduating with a class V1 St Hill cert I can say that I was cringing all thru TC’s 2 min 30 secs (I couldn’t watch any further). Ron would have been cringing (sorry Tom) and it is impossible to compare TC’s attitude with LRH ideas about being a scientologist. Yes, Ron advocates helping people with assists at accident sites or wherever; but with such force and “dedication”? Ron *never* used force unless he knew the recipients could confront it and he did assists where needed but not because he was exhorted to do them. . Every single lecture, even on the most serious of subjects was sprinkled with humour of the kindest manner. He *never* “got serious” and “dedicated”. He simply was himself and enjoyed every moment of his time with us, especially the applause he received at his appearance at every lecture. He understood what it was that he had asked of us and he was very appreciative of the acknowledgement he received from us. Tom Cruise is an entertainer, he needs to watch his video again and weep, it has done so much damage.
    Having seen Ron so many times it is only now that I realise just how privileged I was to be at St Hill at that time. I totally missed the Sea Org period and never worked in scientology after mid 1965 and that that is a cause for relief for me is very very sad. I only needed to watch Miscavage videos around 1993 or thereabouts to know here was a false personality who would cause scientology harm. But never THIS much harm! I appeal to all scientologists whether in the Sea Org or a Class V org or public to ask themselves would Ron ever have asked his followers to “close their minds to the world” (yes I am saying that scientologists today are putting themselves out of communication with their fellowman not SPs, their fellowman.
    I KNOW how much effort and intention has been expended by really dedicated SO and other org members and the monies contributed by public scientologists but I will die a very miserable being if I don’t see change occuring from within. What’s been accomplished by staff since the late 60s and the formation of the Sea Org (physically) is way beyond anything I could have envisaged within my lifetime. It has been a really commendable effort which should not be allowed to succomb to the will of a tyrant.
    I might just mention that most of the ex St Hill staff etc who have been declared SP were my fellow classmates and supervisors who had been , some of them, with Ron since the early dianetics days. Seeing that list was the final proof that I needed to speak out against suppression within scientology. My love for scientology is as strong today as it was in 1960 when I did my first Personnel Efficiency course. Yes, that is correct, it was (and still should be) Personnel. I was briefly engaged with David Mayo’s ill fated group. I found that group to be as different from the *real* org as it is possible to be. Personable people, friendly, helpful but with the correct purpose; to free beings from their reactive minds. It was crushed because it posed a threat to “the church” and its income, not because anyone was squirreling the tech. Instead of getting together and promoting scientology together the church had to be the *authority* so it sued. David Mayo was a good man and technologically superior to any other trained scientologist so he wasn’t a squirrel (hard to be LRH’s auditor and be a squirrel) (for those who dont know, a squirrel is someone who deliberately practices non standard scientology technology by altering wording, procedures or adding non sequiters or just making up mental procedures which never came from LRH. Ron Hubbard (and us old-timers) tested all of the current procedures. We were the guinea pigs and we did it willingly because we, as does every real scientologist, wants to help where we can, but not with “blind dedication”.

  77. Scientologists work hard. They have a goal. The old goal “heaven” is not so popular these days in our western society.
    A new religion with a new goal would be acceptable.
    See, you put your money into a swiss bank account. Next life remember the account number and password and you can back your money. Would that be a nice goal?

  78. Theo Sismanides

    EO, have you read an book by L. Ron Hubbard? There is the Science of Survival book which is a great start . This way you can get a background on auditing and basic ideas and concepts that will help you familiarize with the subject very much so it is NOT a mystery, at all.

  79. Theo Sismanides

    PH, I have survived the Doomed forever thought, that the church is playing on its members with excommunication. As you can see we are not at all EXcommunicated here, hahaha. I have found my peace of mind when I left as I couldn’t condone “major” High Crimes. Scientology can be applied and done anywhere at any time. The proof is the Indies and the Freezone. And this field is gonna be expanding because it is only natural for knowledge to expand and not be contained. The only thing that couldn’t ever be contained is knowledge.

    LRH says in the PDCs:

    You know Scientology… in a universe which knows Scientology, the chances of anyone’s taking away anyone’s sanity become so remote as to be ridiculous, because there’s always the raw red rebel who will say, ”Those implants might be interesting, but are they useful really?”


  80. It is rather helpful to us what the Miscavige cult has done. It is soooo easy to show the difference between the true philosophy and the decaying cult. Almost everyone will grasp instantly that a working belief system can be used and abused to make the big buck and to let a selfish dictator splurge in domination and self-importance.

  81. miscavigeisscaredofsam

    ‘like’ 🙂

  82. EO,
    You hit a key point. Scientology never allowed itself to be tested in the “white hot’ public eye or the eye of science. It took me years to figure out for myself exactly what auditing produces. The “feel good” is one manifestation, for example, which attracts attention. Had scientology been open to science all of this would be out of the realm of mystery.
    In the 1950’s Dianetics was new and, in my opinion, far surpassed the field of psychology. I checked out modern psychology and found that despite some “heavy greed” in the administration of drugs, there are some qualified individuals.
    Scientology needs to open itself up to the eye of science. It needs to be willing to throw away the mistakes. You can listen to Ron Hubbard lectures in the 1950’s. He talks about life on Mars and Venus. In one lecture, for example, he details the ‘politics’ of the solar system.
    He talks about the “Venusian” or citizen of Venus. All of this mystery crumbles in the ‘curiosity’ of science on Mars.
    I am doing all that I can to open up the basics of scientology to the public. The OT8 material is key to the understanding of scientology.
    Ron Hubbard paints himself as the “master of the universe”. Perhaps the new film is going to shed the real light on his personality.

    George M. White

  83. You say “The only folks who the Miscavige church can really hurt are current and ex Scientologists and the ultimate penalty of course is severe loss of family, friends and loved ones,as well as business connections. ” Please tell that to the families of folks who have died at Narconon. Or businesses and marriages that have been destroyed by WISE business consultants. Or reporters, attorneys, and public officials who were fair gamed. They weren’t Scientologists and had no interest in Clearing the planet.

  84. EO, get yourself a copy of Self Analysis. You can find them on Alibris.com for about a buck. That will satisfy your curiosity. It is probably the best thing there is for giving you an insight into Scientology without having to subject yourself to it.

  85. Yeah, I think thats pretty common. You’re really throwing a new guy into a sharks tank by sending him to the org. He’ll either have to blow and be harassed for years of phone calls and mailings or he can go broke and into debt, but it’s unlikely he will receive much Scientology.

  86. Dassie, thanks very much for your account. It’s always great to hear from someone who was there in the early days.

  87. martyrathbun09

    By the tone and judgmental nature of your communication, it is quite apparent you have not even come close to achieving that which you more than implied you had: Also, there is life to live, to learn and enjoy.
    Independently in true sense.

  88. Ahhh very good point grasshopper (why did I feel like a wise old bearded asian man while typing that?) 🙂

  89. Joe Pendleton

    Point well made Sheryl.

  90. Amen Mike. Well said.
    A plus point of the movie opening is that there will be a reprieve for some that are being tailed by PIs in LA and CW because the PIs will be busy watching the box offices to see what church members are attending. These are the ones that can be controlled. DM and OSA will have a fresh new pool of “curious parishioners” to intimidate and extort from.

  91. You only saw Battlefield Earth twice? I was sent by the Freewinds 4 times to see it, at org expense. The Scientologists were practically the only ones there.

  92. Very amazing, Mark/Grasshopper.
    You will be pleased to know that in many cases it just a matter of comm lag. The more aberrated a person has become by virtue of subjecting himself to miscavige’s reverse scientology, the longer the comm lag. The more not-isness on the case by virtue of operating on lies, the longer the comm lag. The more overts one has committed within miscavige’s cult the greater the bypassed charge, the more justification is created and the longer the comm lag.

    Many people received Debbie’s email, or an email such as the one you sent. The communication penetrated but the response is not yet forthcoming solely based on the principle of comm lag.

    As we continue to communicate in a relatively undisturbed tone of voice and as we continue to be patient with the overwhelmed, we will see them one-by-one wake up, smell the little rat in the cellar and leave the stench of the dungeon behind. Sunlight disinfects. The truth will set them free.

    There are those who like the stench and actively create it. They are of little consequence. Somewhat amusing, like the Jerry Springer show…in a morbid sort of way.

    Most will eventually wake up, smell the roses and choose to live above ground.


  93. Scientology is now a punch line and held up to ridicule. Doesn’t sound like fear to me. I had a run in with security staff over in Tampa yesterday. A few F bombs and they scattered like cockroaches. It is corporate Scientologists who live in fear. Everyone else either pities them or are laughing their asses off at them. Sometimes both. Scientology feared? LOL!

  94. Jethro Bodine

    I’m really looking forward to The Master coming out; should be a great movie. Yes there are many parallels between it and Scientology, probably intentional. Amy Adams plays the wife of the Philip Seymour Hoffman character; her name in it is “Mary Sue Dodd”. More parallels.

  95. There are no Clears? I beg to differ. There are plenty of Clears. However, what makes a person not-Clear turned out to be more complicated than Ron was aware of when he wrote DMSMH. It’s true that to date no one has become entirely free of all forms of aberration. But that’s not the definition of Clear. A Clear is a person who has a certain very fundamental and wonderful ability, that means the end of being at effect of aberration of a certain type, and which provides the necessary foundation for handling the complexities that remain. Ron also gave us tech to make great inroads into those remaining complexities. His achievements and help to us were tremendous. Have we successfully implemented all that he gave us? No. Is there more research to be done? Sure. But have some perspective. Man can send astronauts to the Moon. Is that a failure because we haven’t yet gotten anyone to Mars, or developed warp drive?

  96. deLiz,

    I agree with your 70’s observations. As a mission Distrib Sec in the late 60’s I personally interacted with literally thousands of people every day. Some of them were viciously hostile, some very interested, and the vast majority kind of bored in the middle. It’s the same with contacting prospects for any product or service. Some people are high-toned, some low-toned, and most are somewhere in the middle. The trick in sales is to protect your own tone level by disconnecting as quickly as possible from anyone unhappy with your reach to them, and spending lots of time soaking up ARC with people happy to talk to you, and thereby recharging your theta batteries.

    A wog sales mentor of mine put it this way: “We’re not in the convincing business. We’re in the sorting business. We’re looking for people already going our way, who just need our help to go our way a little faster. Today I will talk to so many people that I will find plenty who WANT to buy.”

  97. Matt, I have a copy dated March 1979 Aides order 483-236 Flag Only , The World out of Comm Eval. send me an email kramerc@cableone.net

  98. Cured Robot and Pat, Ditto, Ditto, Ditto!

  99. If you were to refer to Scientology as an “applied philosophy” and not a religion, I would totally get it. Corporate Scion needs to be burned to the ground. I can’t wait until people start going to jail.

  100. Pingback: Fearsome Scientologists « 31 Factors

  101. Hello Marty and Independents,
    What is your take on Hubbard allowing his wife to go to prison in 1979 for Operation Snow White?
    I’m not a Scientologist. But I enjoy following it. Marty’s site is the best for keeping up on Scn.
    As Corporate Scientology rapidly implodes, it seems that the Independents are trying to present Hubbard to the world in a positive light.
    It seems to me that Hubbard knew all along about Operation Snow White, and was in fact the person who instigated the operation and was running it. There is a Hubbard lecture, I think “RJ 67”, where Hubbard is at sea or something, and he boasts along the lines of “We, of course, have complete copies of their files.” Plus, Operation Snow White is consistent with Hubbard’s policies and his view of himself as an intelligence operative.
    I am in no way criticizing Hubbard or your movement. It just looks like Hubbard cooked up this scheme, and then let his wife take the fall for him when it went bad.
    So . . . . how do you guys see that?

  102. When you come right down to it, the only thing about Scientology that most people object to is the NON-Scientology that’s been added to it by NON-Scientologists. Miscavige and his current cronies are NOT Scientologists and never have been.

    As I see it, there are 3 types of people who got into Scientology. They’re all basically good, but with different beingnesses based on their experiential tracks.

    In Group 1 were true seekers of spiritual liberation, attracted to Scientology as it existed in the 50’s, 60’s, and at missions in the 70’s. They were tech oriented and compassionate by nature.

    Group 2 was also attracted by the idea of personal spiritual liberation, but even more so by the save-the-world purpose and quasi-military nature of the Sea Org in the 70’s, 80’s, and on up to present time. They were admin oriented, less compassionate, more susceptible to “the end justifies the means” thinking, and more easily robotized than Group 1.

    Group 3 were beings who didn’t fall into the hard core of either Group 1 or Group 2, and could go either way depending on circumstance.

    The history of Scientology is that it got established and grew in the 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s based on attracting Group 1. Around 1970, Group 2 began what amounted to an insurgency. Gradually it diluted and then pushed out Group 1, and made robots out of most of Group 3, or blew them off.

    My opinion is that this happened because most of the beings involved were pre-programmed (implanted) to MAKE it happen. I’ve never believed that this is the first time something like Scientology has occurred on the whole track. The universe contains 300 billion galaxies, and it’s trillions of years old. That’s a lot of opportunity for someone to (a) stumble over the fact that if you confront what you’ve created, it disappears, and (b) develop liberation or reverse brainwashing techniques based on that principle. Actually, just on this planet there was a lot of such technology before Scientology — not as effective, but not worthless either.

    I believe that tech was developed on the whole track to not only enslave beings, but to corrupt and destroy organizations that dared to try to undo the work of the slavemasters. This tech would lead people and their groups down a “primrose path” consisting of 4 stages: (1) Co-opt their spiritual liberation purpose by making a single philosophy and path essential to its achievement. (2) Inflame and expand that commendable purpose into “saving the world.” (3) Make a centralized organization necessary to accomplish the saving of the world. (4) Slowly but surely transform that central organization into a cult that either (a) functions as a vassal state supporting the power of higher-up planetary slavemasters, or (b) if it won’t become a vassal state, get it to commit so many overts that it dead-agents itself with the public and dies.

    I believe that the existence of implants driving this cycle has been an important factor in the genesis of our problems. Therefore, avoiding the triggers that restimulate those implants is vital. The solution I suggest to accomplish this is as follows. Many others have stated parts of it already. This is just my version and summation.

    (1) Focus on attracting Group 1 beings rather than the general public. And avoid anything and everything that would attract Group 2 beings, who are the ones most susceptible to the Nazi valence key-in. That means granting beingess to other paths (while, of course, not mixing practices), no save-the-world rah-rah, no militaristic aspects to anything, no admin bureaucracies, light ethics, and no separate-from-the-world, proto-cult identity in any way, shape, or form.

    (2) Have no overarching organization controlling everything. Instead have hundreds of locally owned, entrepreneurial missions, utilizing very light admin. Let the free market naturally weed out the squirrel operations and Group 2 cults that will inevitably occur.

    (3) The Group 1 oriented missions would start out delivering only Div 6 services, but would add higher and higher Bridge levels, all the way to the top, as they got students ready to do them, and staff ready to deliver them. The Ron’s Orgs in Europe did this, and it worked great, with groups sticking together for 10 years or more as they went up the Bridge together.

    (4) These missions would heavily emphasize the co-auditing route, so that mainly Group 1 is attracted and retained. There is nothing on the Bridge that can’t be co-audited. After the Objectives and Self Analysis co-audits on the HQS course, Life Repair can be completed as a co-audit using unmetered Intro/Demo Processes, providing there is good C/Sing. (If you doubt that, read the book.) And co-auditors who reach Grad 5 and OT 3 could do the Advanced Courses Specialist course and co-audit New OT 4 and 5. This co-audit emphasis was also part of the successful Ron’s Org pattern that generated great esprit de corps.

    (5) As a practical matter the mission holders would probably already be field auditors and initially need to maintain their cash flow by delivering professional auditing. But their intention would be to replace themselves in that activity by growing cash flow from training, and creating new Grad 5 Clear field auditors to take the inevitable pc’s who don’t want to train to be auditors themselves. The focus of the missions would be co-auditing. Processing route pc’s would be handled by the field auditors graduating from the co-auditing route, and the mission would be supportive of their career success.

    (6) Only trained auditors who’d given and received substantial case gain would be allowed on staff at any level. The absolute minimum would be having co-audited through Objectives, Self Analysis, Intro/Demo Processes Life Repair. and some Book One. Mission execs would have to be at least co-audit route Grad 5 Clears. This would provide an impenetrable barrier to SPs rising to power. The COSMOD missions of the 70’s used a similar policy with great success. Most of their HQS grads wanted to join staff, and were told to do the HSDC first. That separated the wheat from the chaff. And, because the mission chain was run as an entrepreneurial business, it hired only as many staff as it really needed. The flow of HSDC grads was more than sufficient to fill that need. The mission I worked at in the 70’s did the same thing, and it worked great.

    The whole idea would be to attract Group 1 and help them achieve their spiritual liberation purpose through co-auditing, while avoiding attracting Group 2, or giving those that do get into the mission any opportunity to become bottom-of-the-Bridge bureaucrats messing things up chasing after organizational power and MEST. That would then allow Group 3 to emulate Group 1 rather than Group 2 as occurred in the Church.

    The key is remaining mindful of the fact that the Nazi cult valence does sit there as a potential in the cases of most people, ready to be triggered by certain circumstances. So, we make sure those circumstances never arise again, and we’ll be OK. Then gradually, over time, the PR situation will change.

  103. Mr. Rinder: well stated and informative. I was wondering why the “church” seems so quiet after this summer of what has t

  104. Sorry – hit wrong button above- meant to say tge cos is quiet after this summer of hell for them – too many fires to put out?

  105. Carol,
    Didn’t you read my previous comment on this thread?

    My original comment also had explanation and links.

    Marty edited my comment and took away the rest of my comment, because he will write an article about the subject. My educated guess is that he wants to avoid a thread about the subject here, and let the readers comment on the subject after he publishes his article.

  106. Yea but Kevin, your F bombs ARE scary !! 😉

    It is a sad commentary nevertheless. I remember well the days of confronting anything (literally) and fearing nothing as a Scientologist.

  107. “There is absolutely *nothing* scary in Scientology.” You’ve got to be kidding?

    I made it to the highest level available in Scn and the highest classed auditor available to public at the time (1970’s). I’m not scared of anything about Scientology now but at times in the past I was; and for good reason.

    The first scare I experienced in scientology was heavy ethics in the form of back to back G.O. investigationsspecifically aimed at me resulting in 2 Com Evs with the threat of losing my eternity. I got through those okay and never feared for myself after but at the time it was damned scary.

    Another scare was the enforced loss of my livelihood through Scientology Ethics. I did lose my job but once again I came through and landed on my feet.

    Then there were the threats of disconnection from friends and family members which were terrifying. The disconnections happened. Over the years most of those connections have been re-established but some very important ones remain unresolved. I still worry over these people.

    Later I was a target of various fair game tactics mounted by OSA. This was scary at first but I couldn’t care less about OSA and fair game now.

    There are many other examples I could cite and I could be very specific but I think my position is clear.

    To point out my responsibility in this or how it must have been my choice is shallow minded at best. The fear I experienced had nothing to do with dramatizing being a victim or some other skewed point of view. There are such things as bad or scary conditions where the appropriate response is fear.

    If some of you think these scary episodes have nothing to do with scientology or are due to some perversion of the subject you would be wrong. I’ve studied the tech and policies and the fact is, taken as a whole, there are scary aspects to scientology. And that’s not saying “all” of scientology is scary.


  108. Yes interesting account. I suspect you would be fun to interview Dassie. Are you in CA by chance? In lieu of that, I for one would be interested in hearing more herein.

  109. TroubleShooter

    Hi Pat, That point could be valid in some cases but in the case of LRH’s Student Hat – how do you feel? I for one cursed the labor intensive word clearing I had to do on that course for about the first 1/3 of it. Then I started to realize how much my vocabulary was benefiting and once I dug in on the derivations and all that proper word clearing required I started to LOVE clearing words. The point is that a person isn’t always intending not to be understood because they use words others don’t understand…peace out.

  110. I hear ya, Dan. It’s been about 20 years since I felt OK about bringing anyone into an org, largely because by then the IAS was in full swing. Or so I thought. I guess it’s 10X worse now.

  111. miscavigeisscaredofsam


  112. mrinder, that was AWESOME!!!

  113. I’m looking forward to the movie. I hope they do show some redeeming/human qualities of “The Master”.
    Scary describes something frightening, unexpected or uncanny.
    For all the reasons Karen #1 and others have stated many times here, there is reason to be “scared”. Thugs are kind of scary. I see the people whose kids are disconnected from them and to me, that’s scary. JT and his wife and the death of their son Jett was scary. There is absolutely NO prediction as to what to expect, except the unexpected with the Cof$.
    And of course, no stable data for people to grab on to and differentiate with – YET.

  114. Polymath,
    Nice film. Thanks.

  115. TroubleShooter,
    I did the Student Hat and the PRD and KTL. I know the study tech and figure I have a very good grasp on the English language. But first and foremost, the interest has to be there. I’m reading a blog here which I’m interested in but it is different than being on course. I’m not on course. Big difference.
    I’m not getting into clearing words based on someone else’s significance. That would be a good way to make a mental case out of yourself; clear every word you ever come across all the time. Whew. That day will never come for me. A person can write whatever they want but if I’ve got no interest, onward.

  116. Hi UR, I don’t think I added the “outpoints” part, but I’d have to check the reference to be sure.

  117. Steve: The reference is Data Series 30 Situation Finding.

    Laughter is rejection, actually.

    And humor you will find usually deals with one or another outpoint put in such a way that the reader or
    audience can reject it.

  118. But I am sure Miscavige (junior) applies the Jokers and Degreders PL in order to discredit him.

  119. It’s true, the IAS is a dissemination killer.

  120. morelivesthanacat

    The thing that struck me about Tom’s video was that it was not from the heart. It was acting. It was way too premeditated. Too many key words. And probably a bunch of re-takes.

    Now, being a good actor, he should be able to pull it off completely convincingly so that one couldn’t tell that it wasn’t completely sincere and from the heart. He really could have, and almost certainly thought he did because Dave slapped him on the back about it and probably told him he was more on-Source and dedicated than any of the DBs (degraded beings) at the Int Base.

    Not to mention that Dave almost certainly micro-managed the whole thing behind the scenes in every aspect of pre-production, production and post-production. Unbeknownst to Tom, of course.

    So Tom’s a wee bit on the PTS side. A wee bit in Dave’s valence (to put it charitably). So even he, a damn good actor, couldn’t even see that it just came off as a show….and, in accordance with this post, a scary one at that.

  121. Wow Mike, what a fun communication. Every now and again a stack of words flows & aligns with great duplication. Isn’t truth with workability a nice thing. Making safe space… thanks, I love it.

  122. Having read through your post another time through Dassie, I’ve realized you’ve said quite a lot in quite short order. It’s the suffering of the world wide web frenzy to be heard, and rarely a worthy ack. At any rate, Hubbard’s work was en-mass highly commendable, unprecedented and workable toward the betterment of mankind. It’s indeed sad as hell his best current PR is a reaction to the ravages of a cabbage. At best, a nightmare we all deal with on one level or another, in or out.

  123. Jesus! If the Vatican had had a monopoly on The Bible there would be no Christianity today. Wake up world! “The Power”, “The Secret”, “How to Win Friends and Influence People”, “Dianetics”, “Zero Limits”…….etc. These books are all in the public domain, and so are the OT levels, Superpower, FPRD, and anything else you might want to get in Scientology. Who needs the Church? It’s just a tiny group of very easily controlled and gullible people the size of a pimple on a goldfish’s bum, with a lot of real estate and no results, and what they are delivering isn’t the real deal anyway. It’s a bit like “Joe’s Corner Hamburger Store” (The Church) trying to tell “McDonalds” (the Independents) that they can’t make hamburgers because Joe made the first one in nine hundred and blah blah. Who cares what they say! Nobody is going to listen to them anyway. The entire world thinks they are fruitcakes.

    Wendy Honnor

  124. Tom Gallagher


    My take, perhaps an intuitive perception on your scene, is that you’re continuing the decompression phase and process from a LONG relationship with Radical Corporate Miscavige Altered Scientology.

    Enjoy your sabbatical. You’ve more than earned it.

    The Cincinnati org is a paradox of hope and help. Like anything ‘POB’,
    it sucks.

  125. Cryptic significance’s enigmatically interposed in mystery…

  126. Thank you for your post, Dassie. I also agree with Mrs. Libnish to a certain extent. For these reasons, and others which have been mentioned by some prominent independents since, I disappeared several years ago. I found I was feeling much better after getting off public lines. I’ve blown off so much invalidation and other charge at Marty’s place. I also know that my gut instincts (about Corporate Scn) were, unfortunately, true. I never found a reason to doubt Ron or the tech in its pure, unadulterated form. However, one must go on (it’s all about experience as a spirit, really…. and most of it is fun and exciting …and eternal!). I am grateful for the ability to make my own observations in order to determine the truth for me. I know that life is good and that my experience (good or bad) reinforces who I AM. And I am good and light. Thank you to all the theta beings who post on this site. Love to all of you.

  127. Some say that LRH would have had the next lifetime Swiss bank account withdrawal as a major goal. I say maybe, maybe not. Here are the problems. First, inflation. Second, the IRS cracking down on tax havens. Third, karma. If you built up bad karma, you won’t get the money. If you built up good karma, you will make it some other way anyway. I know LRH said that karma is not an immutable law, but I seriously doubt he rose above the overt motivator sequence. Fourth, one’s goals will change from lifetime to lifetime. You would likely come back and be totally disinterested in wealth. Fifth, there are other mechanisms for protecting wealth, such as trusts and foundations, where assets are not tied to an individual. Just rejoin the family. Then again, you might be sick of the family you just left and definitely not go back there.

  128. I did, thank you

  129. Pat, LOL, “onward”!!!

  130. “If I take a medicine/drug/treatment it’s been tested and documented what effects and side-effect it may have on me, I can make an informed decision to participate or not.” You really trust the FDA? I don’t.

    I think you might benefit from reading this: Fascinating article about Iatrogenic illness. http://www.deathreference.com/Ho-Ka/Iatrogenic-Illness.html

    Many people in the early 50’s purchased DMSH (Dianetics The Modern Science of Mental Health, by L. Ron Hubbard) and worked together applying the procedures in that book on a turn around basis. Also, as recommended by Grasshopper, you could grab a copy of Self Analysis and audit yourself! Or not…but little risk involved in either.

  131. OMG! That is effing hilarious!

  132. It looks like Marty created a mystery sandwich, just for you, guys … 🙂

    My original comment also had explanation and links.

    Marty edited my comment and took away the rest of my comment, because he will write an article about the subject. My educated guess is that he wants to avoid a thread about the subject here, and let the readers comment on the subject after he publishes his article.

  133. If the Vatican had had a monopoly on The Bible there would be no Christianity today.

    Absolutely, Wendy. I keep returning to the Reformation period of the Catholic Church as an analogy to what Scientology is going through today. Martin Luther and the early rebels of that religion proved that the Catholic Church only held what power over people that the people themselves granted to them. When the church had fallen so far that it finally became the very antithesis of everything the founder of Christianity had taught, then the people simply took their bibles and walked.

    Such is the situation with Scientology today. Just as the Pope in Rome didn’t have an enforceable monopoly on Christianity, neither does Miscavige and his corrupted corporation have a monopoly on Scientology. And just as Christians of centuries ago discovered that there was no salvation to be found within the walls of Rome’s churches and cathedrals, we now find that the true promise of LRH’s spiritual technology can only be found outside Miscavige’s drywall palaces.

  134. LDW,
    Well said! Thank you.

  135. Thanks, Mike!
    AND Steve, who put 2 and 2 together!

  136. He’s acting, you’re right. And really badly. And these days people can
    tell even slightly bad acting. And this was really bad. And since he was
    acting “himself”, it’s tantamount to lying!

  137. Marty, thank you for letting my post through.
    Also, thank you for what you do. And I mean it.
    Just like I meant it when I thanked you in person.

    I am sorry for coming across as judgmental (as in excessively critical).
    It’s the way I see and feel though. May be it will change, we all learn.
    I shared my opinion and sure didn’t mean to offend anyone.
    My sincere apologies, if i did.

    As far as: “Also, there is life to live, to learn and enjoy.
    Independently in true sense” – I do live, learn and enjoy life,
    better then ever actually. I sense same goes for you, Marty.

    I hope we can agree on that, despite of anything else.

    Wish you well.

  138. Stat,
    I hope that you shall attain the state of Clear if you would like to do so.
    As to your statement that others have not done so, remember that even “objective realities” must be perceived subjectively in order to be perceived. That is the only way that anything can be true or real for anyone.

  139. Tom,

    Thank you for your kind words!
    Life is a constant learning process, the way I see it.
    Say hi to Mary Beth, by the way!

    You guys are wonderful!

  140. Thank you for sharing your opinion, Diogenes.
    Some food for thought for both followers and critics.

  141. not possible, I live on the other side of the planet, “down under) but I will try to write more about that course and the people on it.

  142. Dassie,

    I love you for taking the time to share all of this with us.

    You were THERE. And, obviously, you are also, very much, HERE.
    I never met Ron, but everyone who I have met who has met him gives the same account of how much he cared about each and every being and how much he wanted each and every being to have the benefits of Scientology.
    You will not have to “die a miserable being if change does not occur from within” because change is already occurring from within. We ARE the change that is occurring. WE are Scientologists whether Miscavige and those PTS to him in the COS are shunning us or not. We ARE Scientologists and WE are changing things from within the true group which consists of all Scientologists.
    And besides that, Dassie, you know you can’t die anyway, so please can it. 🙂
    Bodies come and bodies go.
    But we live in eternity.
    I am so glad that you are a Scientologist.
    Please post your thoughts here more often?

  143. Gern Gaschoen

    I too have done a lot of Scientology, and I wasn’t scared of much, I have to say. Enlightened, yes, Scared: no.

    The only thing in Scientology that I am scared of today is that my fellow humans won’t be able to experience the amazing wins I have had, for themselves. Thats really the only scary thing about it. Everything else: really fun!

  144. Gern Gaschoen

    .. which is evidence enough that DM is being propped up by NON-Scientologists, i.e. they are not actually doing any.

  145. Gern Gaschoen

    If you’ve got no interest, no worries. But the fact is its a lot easier to get to the stage where you can clear every word, ever, flawlessly and smoothly, than it is to stay in an operating basis of not clearing any words, ever. Super-literacy is AWESOME.

  146. Same is true for anti-depressants. The label says they don’t know how they work.

  147. Gern Gaschoen

    Get trained before you leave. Spend as much time with LRH as you can, before you leave the suppressive group. Also, try to remember who it was that enabled you to sit in that course room and study LRH in peace. Those people will still need your support when you leave.

  148. Good point. It is a pretty long comm lag. Also, I am not dead-filed – I got mail from AO even though I asked these tough questions about Debbie.

    My tactic is to focus on what we KNOW the church is doing in public. There is enough of that to condemn Miscavige. We may not be able to physically prove the existence of “the hole” (despite very credible testimony), but by God we can point out the craziness of the siege at Marty’s, the PI harassment, the jailing of Danny Montalvo, and how Debbie Cook was called “Squirrel” in USA Today publicly three days after she sent an email to friends.

    I don’t know, maybe it hit too close to home. I did point out in some of my comm that Debbie was an SO member, and so are you and aren’t you concerned that you, too, could be forced to expatriate to the Caribbean?

  149. Mary Sue was an awesome woman and she took one for the team. That’s how I see it.

  150. Interesting idea, but I wouldn’t leave group 2 out. I would just tell them to STFU and not give them the opportunity to motivate. Neither Group 1 nor Group 2 characteristics are Native State.

  151. > “My opinion is that this happened because most of the beings involved were pre-programmed (implanted) to MAKE it happen.”


    > “I believe that tech was developed on the whole track to not only enslave beings, but to corrupt and destroy organizations that dared to try to undo the work of the slavemasters.”


    > “This tech would lead people and their groups down a “primrose path” consisting of 4 stages: (1) Co-opt their spiritual liberation purpose by making a single philosophy and path essential to its achievement. (2) Inflame and expand that commendable purpose into “saving the world.” (3) Make a centralized organization necessary to accomplish the saving of the world. (4) Slowly but surely transform that central organization into a cult that either (a) functions as a vassal state supporting the power of higher-up planetary slavemasters, or (b) if it won’t become a vassal state, get it to commit so many overts that it dead-agents itself with the public and dies.”

    Even though these 4 stages of this “primrose path” looks like a good description of what is happening in this space-time, I think these 4 stages of the “primrose path” are just a particular outcome produced by the enslavement tech(s). In other words, the enslavement tech(s) work(s) in a way that under different circumstances it will cause different types of “primrose paths”.

    So, I think it is very important to understand how this particular “primrose path” developed and is developing in this space-time. However we should never forget that there are many other ways in which the “primrose path(s)” may and will develop.

    > “I believe that the existence of implants driving this cycle has been an important factor in the genesis of our problems.”


  152. Roger from Switzerland Thought

    Simplicity in itself ! 🙂

  153. Roger from Switzerland Thought

    I co-audited about 400 hours of standard Dianetics and had all kind of auditors, good and bad ones, it was fun.
    I never had any big Bpc on this auditing and didn’t have to be repaired greatly.
    What I was was mostly bpc on was paid auditing, which had to be repaired endlessly. Out of 20 Auditors that delivered paid auditing to me only 4 were flubless and just great, the rest I was quite charged on !
    But most of the BPC was created by the prices I’d to pay for the repairs of those auditors and so there was a constant stress and ptp in Session that no flubs occurs as it costs a fortune to repair it !
    Talk about being in session !

  154. Roger from Switzerland Thought

    Hallo Local Person

    What’s your take on Rousseau, one of the greatest Philosopher of the 18th century who influenced the French Revolution as well as the overall development of modern political, sociological and educational thought, that he never married the mother of his 5 children, even he lived together with her his whole life time,and that he persuaded Thérèse to give each of the newborns up to a foundling hospital and never care about his siblings ?

    So….. how do you see that ?

  155. TroubleShooter

    I understand what you’re saying. You had said “When someone uses, but doesn’t define, words that are likely to be misunderstood by most of the readers, I assume they don’t want others to understand what they’re saying. And I keep scrolling on down to the next comment.” To which I communicated – “The point is that a person isn’t always intending not to be understood because they use words others don’t understand…peace out.” I learned that if I become critical of something I’ve inflowed to ensure I look for and clear MUs. Doing so has contributed to a greater harvest of the fruits of my observations. I guess I felt the need to chime in about the assumption [your words not mine] you posted. I believe word clearing tech is fundamental to even the tech of TRs. Despite my higher levels of completion on both sides of the gradechart and to head off misduplication of my persistence on this point let me tell you that word clearing and supervisor tech have been used more in my life than any other body of knowledge I’ve covered in Scn. It’s something I feel passionate about. I’m not communicating to make you wrong but to make a point that your comment inspired me to make. I do agree that there are people who speak deliberately in a manner to prevent duplication being stuck in self-importance engram or something of the sort. I just didn’t think MaBu was doing that.

    MaBu I’d also like to acknowledge that your original post was written with explanation and links to provide understanding. I’m looking forward to finding out more about whatever Marty is preparing to say about the subject you brought up!

  156. Good for you Gern!

  157. Hi Grasshopper,
    I can see that. It would be interesting to know more about Mary Sue. Doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of info/background on her. Apparently Mary Sue had a college degree in Engineering at about age 20 or so? Pretty big accomplishment for a woman in the 1950s.
    Thanks for your response.

  158. Hi Roger,
    Your response zoomed way over my head. I don’t even know who Rousseau is.
    Perhaps you are “attacking the attacker” . . . ? In which case you are being the “fearsome Scientologist” described above. (“Don’t say anything that might piss me off, or I’ll come after you.”)
    Here’s the thing: If you hope that Scientology (in whatever form) expands into the society to benefit, then you can’t be touchy about Hubbard. Let’s face it, Hubbard in his personal life was . . . well . . . “human”.
    Hubbard’s “advanced courses” were nothing but nonsense and invention. That’s just my opinion. But there has never been any objective evidence to show there is anything to “OT” at all. Nothing that could be sensed, measured, or experienced by anyone other than the individual claiming the OT experience.
    On the other hand, much of Hubbard’s simpler technology could have very powerful effects in a very beneficial way.
    What if President Obama took all of his “economic advisors” into a conference room, cleared off the table, and told them: “I want all of you to clay demo your product: A prosperous and honest global economy that benefits the most number of honest people.” The first thing President Obama would find out is that not one of his economic advisors could clearly define the word “Economics”.
    What if the Syrian antagonists all sat down and, instead of killing each other, had someone do a thorough 3rd party invest? That would turn up some real interesting material! And they would realize they are fighting the wrong battle.
    What if each student entering college got Short Form Product Clearing before they started so they had some idea what a product was and what they were doing in college in the first place?
    Those simple actions, if done with honesty and persistence, and not a money motivation, could have colossal effects.
    IMHO, that is the potential value that Scientology has to give. But, for that to happen, you would have to be realistic about Hub and the religion.
    My apologies if my comments came across as a criticism.
    Thanks for your response.

  159. I didn’t say to leave Group 2 out entirely, just to avoid doing certain things that would attract them, and allow them to grow into a majority, and provide them with a mechanism to change the effective purpose of the Church, which they in fact did. The problem was not having SOME Group 2 people on staff — it was having WAY TOO MANY of them, especially in the Sea Org where they could remain ignorant of auditing tech, get almost no auditing themselves, and end up as managers and executives controlling Group 1 tech people.

    Group 1 isn’t Native State either, but is closer to it than Group 2. Group 1 is motivated to COMMUNICATE with and FREE people. Group 2 wants to CONTROL people so as to increase its HAVINGNESS. The conflict between the two viewpoints amounts to a GPM.

    But my favoring of Group 1 isn’t just based on which side of that GPM I consider myself to be on. It’s an entirely practical matter. I was in Scientology before the Group 2 insurgency began, and I saw how they changed the Church step by step into the horror it became under DM. The inescapable conclusion is that we must have a preponderance of Group 1 people as both staff and public.

  160. Let me second Ronn’s request that you write more. I thoroughly enjoyed your post!

  161. Actually Marty, it’s not only the “legacy of Miscavage” we have to live with, it’ your legacy too. Where is your responsibility in creating the legacy in all this?

  162. Roger from Switzerland Thought

    If you don’t know who Rosseau was then look it up and you’ll understand my comment !

  163. Local Person

    Will do.

  164. Li'll bit of stuff

    Ditto. Karen, you gotta do more like this!

  165. Li'll bit of stuff

    I like your practicality, Bryon!

  166. Li'll bit of stuff

    In front of you,Steve!

  167. Well, this “space-time” is the “space-time” we are living in, so I think the way the “promrose path” developed here is the way most relevant to our lives in the near future. If the slavemasters have other tricks up their sleeves, we’ll have to observe and solve them as they kick in.

    Of course, there’s always the danger of the solution becoming the problem. All serv facs, as well as 3rd dynamic engrams, are old solutions locked into use even as the problems have changed. It’s like the joke, “What’s the condition below Confusion? Answer: Dinosaur.” Or, “Generals lose the next war by fighting the last one a second time.”

    So, for the long term, I agree with you. But I think we should avoid getting SO philosophical that we neglect to ACT in ways that will work. I think what I’ve presented here is workably true and useful in our current “space-time.”

  168. Training in the Church isn’t what it used to be. 3 swings anyone?

  169. thanks Maurice

  170. i’m having a hip replacement Tuesday so I’ll be offline for a few weeks. Thanks for your response and I’m glad you enjoyed my post. Ron dearly loved his fellowman and he was very grateful for the acks that came his way. But there was a point where he drew the line at anyone acking him as god or displaying overly serious “dedication”. No one could have been more dedicated than Ron but he still managed to present his winning smile and humour to the public even when he was under attack from the critics.

  171. He should never have done it if he intended to act. To me that would make his actions even more wrong. Thanks for your comment morelives.

  172. Ouch, I’ve been too long living in a purely non sci environment. Of course you are quite right I cannot *die* as a being but thanks for the reminder and your kind comments.

  173. Randy Gaumond

    Hey there Bill!! Long time no see!! How was your stint on the Freewinds? What are you doing these days?

    Randy Gaumond, former Hatting Officer, Dir Comm FSO

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