Imagine What Thoughts Could Do To Us


124 responses to “Imagine What Thoughts Could Do To Us

  1. Marty, I appreciate that you let me post, uncensored.

    You can’t talk to water. When proper experimental controls are applied, Maruso Emoto fails. In 2003 James Randi specifically offered Emoto his $1 million prize to reproduce his findings under properly supervised conditions, to prevent fraud. All we heard was crickets.

    Also, the What the Bleep … movie has got to be the absolute most ignorant movie out there. The fundamental lack of understanding of how science works is astounding. It’s either that or outright fraud, to lure the gullible.

    Please learn the basics of the experimental design. This will prevent you from fooling yourself and others. Now that’s one set of Basics you need to read.

  2. Here’s a quick one page report about the topic:
    (The video does not work, but they are very clear about the conclusion)
    Commentators have criticized Emoto for insufficient experimental controls, and for not sharing enough details of his approach with the scientific community. In addition, Emoto has been criticized for designing his experiments in ways that leave them open to human error influencing his findings.
    His results have never been reproduced and so are unprovable.

  3. This whole subject is very fascinating.

  4. martyrathbun09

    AnonO, you prove his conclusions to me with just about every comment you make on this blog. I thought your work on the Pasadena org video was marevlous by the way.

  5. martyrathbun09

    Randi will never be satisfied with spirituality – he is too convinced he is MEST.

  6. Sorry Amy, there’s nothing “fascinating” about this at all. It is simply not true. You can’t talk to water. Other experimenters that have tried have completely failed. That’s how science works. One person makes a claim and others verify it under controlled conditions. If we ever meet, I’ll show you and e-meter test that may surprise you.
    BTW, you look fantastic in that picture.

  7. I know personally, here in Portugal, of one winery that plays classical music to the wine for months while it is in the oak barrels.

  8. I worked a lot harder at denying Miscavige his welfare tax exemption. No kidding the base has the highly coveted “Welfare Tax Exemption”. I succeeded only partially. About 10% of the buildings were denied the exemption in 2011.

  9. This subject is indeed interesting and broad.

    One of the most important principles of Theravada Buddhism is loving-kindness or “Metta” in Pali.
    During devotions we chant the following in Pali:
    “Extend loving-kindness throughout
    the world, without limitation,
    above, below and across, free of
    obstruction, enmity or hostility”

    Wish I could get Mr. Miscavige to chant with us. That would be grand!
    The origin of the above Discourse came about because a group of monks
    were bothered by robbers when they went into a remote grove to meditate.
    The Buddha instructed them to chant the Discourse and it worked in that the robbers avoided the monks.
    Of course, monks are not householders. On a more practical level,
    the Buddha knew that some people simply do not respond to the message of loving-kindness. In fact, it is not well known that the Buddha accepted the role of the soldier because he knew that the householder population needed to defend itself.
    Mr. Miscavige, please join me in the loving-kindess chant!

    George M. White

  10. LRH once said that one could make some make real progress in science if one understood the goal of each particular element. Well, shall we have a go at it? Maybe we could say that the goal of oxygen is to give life. And maybe we could say that the goal of hydrogen is to be free. That kind of explains water, doesn’t it? And since it contains oxygen, we could consider water to be a life form. That is a Shinto belief as well.

    Don’t forget rocks, especially SiO2 in crystalline form as quartz. More life forms. What would be the goal of gold? I don’t know, but sputtering a thin (3 or 4nm) coating on to a quartz crystal (they call this aqua aura) greatly enhances its metaphysical properties. It is easy enough to experience all this.

    Oh wait, it isn’t published in a peer-reviewed paper or nobody jumped through James Randi’s hoops, so never mind.

  11. I’ve never personally seen a water molecule alter its composition or character after flowing love and harmony to it.

    I have witnessed on many, many occasions a group of people alter their character and composition after flowing love and harmony to it. I’ve also personally witnessed the changes in the group of individuals when hate and vitriolic communication were injected into it.

    I’ve also never met somone with a “green thumb” who hated his plants.

    Love, affinity, admiration, tolerance, positive postulates for onself and one’s fellows, creative imagination toward a higher spiritual ideal…are all these things a waste of time and merely delusional concepts?

    After careful consideration of all the empiracle evidence, I think I’ll continue to flow affinity toward my own and other’s bodies just in case.


  12. “AnonO, you prove his conclusions to me with just about every comment you make on this blog.”


  13. martyrathbun09

    Yeah, but Pasadena was brilliant. You demonstrated – maybe even Randi would agree – that Scientology staff members are prohibited from or unable to talk about Scientology.

  14. martyrathbun09

    Hey, my man.

  15. Another reason to get a Dark Field Microscope
    I love this experiment!

  16. It is notable that James Randi has not accepted the $1 million dollar challenge from Victor Zammit: “One million dollars is offered to any skeptic who can rebut the evidence for the existence of the afterlife.” Victor Zammit made this offer 12 years ago.

    You can visit Victor Zammit’s website for further information and for his carefully compiled and examined body of peer-reviewed scientific work on the paranormal and a very thorough examination of the misrepresentations made by James Randi and other similar skeptics (Victor labels this type of skeptic as pseudo-skeptics.)

    “After 22 years of dealing with all kinds of paranormal skeptics, I can relate to you there are at least seven reasons why closed minded skeptics tend to remain stubborn about their skeptical beliefs – and why some of them unreasonably attack those who scientifically and empirically investigate evidence for the paranormal ” ~Victor Zammit

    In fact, Dr. Emoto’s work is a subset of cymatics, the study of visible sound and vibration, a subset of modal phenomena.

  17. Marty – loved the posting. I happen to have Dr. Emoto’s DVD and have read two of this books. One is here on my desk entitled “The Healing Power of Water.”

    Not to derail this posting at all. For those that have doubts as to the realm of research I would suggest a brief review/study of the work of three renowned scientists: Dr. Paul MacLean, Dr. Candace Pert, and Dr. Bruce Lipton. All of whom have research that reinforces the hypotheses put forward by Dr. Emoto.

    There’s a direct link between the brain research of Paul MacLean, M.D., the former director of the national Institute of mental Health’s Laboratory of Brain Evolution and Behavior in Poolesville, Maryland, and Dr. Emoto’s water research.

    How the body responds to emotions has also been studied on a molecular level by Candace Pert, Ph.D. I have had the opportunity to hear her give a graduate level presentation in person and it is quite detailed. Dr. Pert, is a noted researcher and pharmacologist. She is also the author of the books “Molecules of Emotion” and “Everything You Need to Know to Feel Go(o)d”. She has proven that neuropeptides – specific proteins/chemicals which are triggered by emotions – are thoughts converted into matter.

    Now, back to the subject at hand. Our thoughts, postulates and decisions are senior to the physical universe. We do change our environment and our lives by what we think. This is not new to most of us – but we should never lose sight of the fact that we are not alone, nor the only ones, with that viewpoint.

    Just as your recent posting about quantum physics, this too will evoke some thinking and shake some fixed ideas. Thanks.

  18. Tom Gallagher

    Great video. It could also be subtitled “Thought is boss”.

  19. An emeter test they may surprise you. Move the meter around while holding the cans solo style and touch things with your free hand. Everything has it’s own read. It’s all alive.

  20. Hubbard said magic is about forces and conditions. We have conditions explained in the ethics book and in the awareness characteristics. Forces can be observed with an emeter. I have noticed Scientology only works when it is used at the top of the CDEI scale. In the enforce band it had no value. I would say you are in command of the magic. 🙂

  21. To Marty and AnonO –

    No human is entirely rational. To try to be entirely rational is to delete all the magic out of life and to live in a grey world with very little love and the inspiration and the good feelings necessary to make life healthy and pleasurable for human beings.

    I know, I’ve tried.

    While you can go too far with intuition and magical thinking because spiritual longings make a human being vulnerable to exploitation by others, there is still a point where spiritual belief and the perception of spiritual causation is optimal.

    People who have been involved in Scientology are acutely aware of where these lines cross – or at least they should be. And while AnonO’s suggestions to become more scientifically literate are very valuable, I have found that sucking all the magic out of life is too extreme and unworkable for life as a human.

    I have found that the end result of training in critical thinking and scientific literacy is a clear perception of the *limits* of these subjects. This results in a freedom to see the world as the continual miracle that it is, while not letting your spiritual vulnerabilities be exploited.

    The best course I know for teaching this result is here:

    Science and spirituality are NOT in conflict.

    I hope this helps.

  22. My uncle played classical music to his cows. He said it helped milk production. Of course, he did not set up a proper double blind study (he’d have to go milk his cows with earplugs), but it’s comforting to think he may have been right. The fact that you WANT something to be true does not make it so.
    Science will give you the truth, religion will only fool you.

  23. Who says one cannot talk to water? Anybody can. Getting an answer, now that is a different matter and a very subjective matter, at that.
    Flowing affinity to some- or any-one or any other life form will always get a response.

  24. Hi, Yep, plenty of other tech out there – no alt churches though! well respectable ones anyway. If your not interested, do you have the email add for the Italian couple who defected recently? maybe they would be up for it. I sure as hell cant set one up, too involved in 2D stuff (looking after my 11yo child that is) but could certainly help with research. Bet half of Scn Public would leave and half the SO eventually if a Church of Spiritual Research was established. Cheers, Still in good standing and wanting a better a option. Btw, I have to stay anonymous so I technically cant get declared by you have worked who I am already yeah?

    Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 13:55:08 +0000 To:

  25. I just said “hello, i love you” to my glass of water. So, sorry anon, I CAN talk to water;)
    Now, I gotta go find your videos.

  26. A man with a BA in Health Science at Castleton State College in Vermont was fascinated by hearing about Emoto’s work. His interest sparked some in-depth research and he has published a very interesting blog . The blog cites some other interesting papers and research from the scientific community which examined Emoto’s work. Here is the link:

    I do think Emoto’s profits from his work is important to mention, from the above link:
    “Unfortunately for his credibility with the scientific community, Dr. Emoto sells products based on his claims. The products page of Emoto’s Hado website is currently offering “geometrically perfect” “Indigo water” that is “highly charged hexagonally structured concentrate,” and supposedly creates “structured water” that is “is more easily assimilated at the cellular level” for $35 for an eight-ounce bottle. Without providing scientific research references for the allegedly amazing qualities of his Indigo Water, Emoto’s commercial venture calls to mind ethical concerns regarding his intent and motivation—questions that would not be present if any scientist had published research supporting his claims.”

    Dr. Emoto attended the “Open University – for Alternative Medicine” in India (The Open Univ has 3.5 million students btw!!!) and received a degree in “alternative medicine.” I think this is important to point out because in the Western world the title of Doctor, in regards to medicine, infers an education with a rigorous scientific background. Dr. Emoto ‘s education did not involve the hard sciences nor does he have a scientific background and he states as much.

    “I did not start out with any modern scientific background,” stated Emoto. Not having been educated in the scientific community, Emoto has been happy to do his “research” without accurately employing the scientific method. While he does employ the spirit of the scientific method in his research design, he makes critical mistakes in its rigor.

    Therefore his work is grounded in the spiritual/theological, not in the scientific, which is perfectly fine. I just don’t like science being used to lend credibility when it’s not even being employed.

    Just to vent a little – and this is in general not anything I’m specifically directing at Emoto. It just annoys the hell out of me when people try to use science to lend credibility to particular spiritual/religious matters, or an agenda, but refuse to follow the very clear procedures and criteria set out for any “scientific” research. You shouldn’t use the label or infer bona fides if you don’t follow the required rules that go with it. But what’s worse is when any scientific principles or findings that disagrees or refutes the agenda of their psuedo-scientific claims – it is ignored, or worse, attacked. Science is not a propaganda tool. Science and religion are not easy bedfellows, and some would argue on opposite ends of the spectrum. I tend to think philosophy is where the two tend to meet, but Scientists don’t use religion to help further their agendas (god says my research findings are blessed!) and I wish religious groups would show the same respect. If they want to respectfully agree to research together – fantastic – but stop the one-sided crap employed for monetary gain or media attention.

    Certain groups or people think they can use science as some sort of convenience or promotion, to pick and choose what suits them and furthers their agenda. But I think religious/ spiritual groups should stay away from the sciences completely IF they only want to cherry pick what suits them.

    Whoa, that was way longer than I expected it to be! Hope I haven’t put anyone to sleep.

  27. If it wasn’t for science, you’d be starving.
    Here check this out. Just for you, it’s really funny:

    It’s such a success that they got $28,500 in donations after asking for only $17,000.

  28. Can you prove that this not fascinating? Or that the water was not talked to? You are operating under the erroneous assumption that everything that is true is provable per your methods.

  29. Can you prove that everything which is true is provable per your methods and that everything that is untrue can be proven so?

  30. I don’t know anything about Emoto or photographing ice crystals and labeling that water. But the message of this video, and I dare say the reason Marty posted it, is because it makes a point about how thoughts affect us. A person’s own thoughts are the primary causal agent affecting anyone’s life.

  31. This video is not about water. It’s about the power of thought to affect a person.

  32. fcdcclassof74

    AnonO :When I was in college we mocked up water and broke it down repeatedly and it worked every time, I for one did not want the process to fail, my grade depended on it. And as far as molecules changing when being exposed to vibrations look at snow flakes not a single one identicle so why would you expect any thing out of the ordinary. Remember where you are that is, which universe you are playing in.

  33. Yes. I saw Randi’s video clip for “Knowledge Report” where he opens a Scn book to a random page and reads it out claiming it is gibberish. This is specious, and he should know better than that to try to fool people like that. I understood what he was reading because I am a Scientologist and know the context. Here’s the technique back at you, a benign and even non-technical excerpt from Wikipedia on the Theory of Everything:

    “Supersymmetric GUTs seem plausible not only for their theoretical “beauty”, but because they naturally produce large quantities of dark matter, and because the inflationary force may be related to GUT physics (although it does not seem to form an inevitable part of the theory). Yet GUTs are clearly not the final answer; both the current standard model and all proposed GUTs are quantum field theories which require the problematic technique of renormalization to yield sensible answers. This is usually regarded as a sign that these are only effective field theories, omitting crucial phenomena relevant only at very high energies.”

    Looks like gibberish to me. MUST BE FAKE! Come on Randi! Give me a break.

  34. martyrathbun09

    I am not trying to ‘use science’ for anything. I did not even graduate college.

  35. martyrathbun09

    If your uncle ran a blog that talked of the peace of mind attained from playing music to cows, would you persistently pepper it with with dissonance?

  36. martyrathbun09

    Thanks SA.

  37. I find your compete mental enslavement to “science” both amusing and ironic, all things considered…

  38. BAck in the early 60s, LONG before I got into Scn, I helped my brother-in-law with his 115 milk cows. He used to play hard rock, which I hated, while milking them. Then he asked me to look after them for a fortnight when he wanted a holiday. I played light classics while milking – milk production shot up by 25%. He could not understand it.

  39. I personally don’t think that this is possible, since water is not sentient.
    It is a nice sentiment. I guess ultimately all Mest is a “form” of theta but I differentiate it at the point of showing an ability to communicate.
    I never went to college either Marty, (lol) so what do I know !!

  40. That’s a wise cognition you told us. Thank you.

  41. This is indeed a great course, ( I have approximately 300 hours of clock time listening to Dr. Novella. I’m not sure you’ve actually listened to it because the topic is not about the conflict between science and spirituality.

  42. If Mr. Emoto’s observations and conclusions have only a grain of truth in it, then we shoud me much more responsible regarding what we cause with our thoughts.

  43. I think the video teaches a lesson about credulity. My attention got hung up in the video when she stated an unscientific truth that our bodies are made up of 90% water. If you’re a tomato, then that would be true.

    For the human body, she’s off by whopping 30%. Our body is made up of about 60% water. So if the video is meant to have any credibility, they should re-shoot it and get that basic science fact corrected first, then the rest may be a bit more believable.

  44. Very cogent, intelligent and true — as usual Les.

    I can sit and get frustrated and scream at the printer and not a damn thing will print. Christie tells me to leave the room and changes nothing other than thinking nice thoughts and talking calmly to the printer and it magically springs to life, printing out all the pages I was yelling at it about. This is not a singular occurrence by any stretch. I swear she does nothing physically different to me…..

    Double blind study under strict scientific protocols. Hardly. But did it happen before my very eyes. More than once. Absolutely.

    And this is the crux of the matter — if it happened and you observed it is it real? Or is reality only determined by whether it can be scientifically measured? I KNOW how to debug my printer. Works every time.

    It doesnt take a lot of skill to be a skeptic. It’s not worth the time and effort to try to convince them there is a possibility they could assume their OWN viewpoint and observe what they can observe. Their loss. Being smugly certain that what someone else can observe doesnt exist because they cannot measure it with a stick or scale isnt a very good place to be IMO.

  45. Funny timing, Today I am listening to some Solfeggio Music Frequencies, The perfect scale. It was in a video I was watching last night. Ancient knowledge It is suppose to be great for you.
    Here is one Youtube link to some Solfeggio music…613.613.0.61169.…0.0…1ac.F1XbyekU2NI

  46. No. The overall topic teaches scientific literacy and critical thinking skills within the context of our limitations as human beings. But two extremely important points he makes while teaching these are the LIMITS of science and the folly of hyper-rationalism.

    After ten years of being out of Scientology and learning the skills necessary to ensure that my spiritual vulnerabilities would never be used against me again, I came upon this course. This course changed my life because of the two points I mentioned above.

    Science and rationalism have very distinct limits, beyond which they can not cross, and beyond which you start practicing Scientism.

    You are not a Scientisimist, are you AO? (:>)

  47. I went to college. Got a Bachelor of Science degree in Mechanical Engineering. But I never had my idea that spiritual abilities can be senior to the physical universe educated out of me.

    Duplicating such “experiments”with people of varying spiritual abilities and talents is un-scientific.

    Also, one thing I didn’t learn in college is the idea that scientific method applies to anything related to spirituality or even human existence.

  48. Holy cow !, pun intended 🙂

  49. I’m not at a place where I can watch this video right now, but from the title, I assume that it deals with how/what thoughts can do to affect the physical universe.

    For those that haven’t seen this (and have an interest in the cutting edge of the scientific investigation of telepathy), I would highly recommend this video. The speaker, Sheldrake, also spends about 45 mins at the end, taking some questions including an interesting experience with James Randi:

    “The Extended Mind: Recent Experimental Evidence”, by Rupert Sheldrake, 2-Sep-2008, (a GoogleTechTalk):

  50. Sorry Marty, my rant was not directed towards you whatsoever. I started out talking about Emoto but by the end it was just a general rant about a people out there who try to promote their agendas by taking advantage of the public’s general lack of science and/or having the “respect” the hard science have earned rub off on them by inferring its support. In fact, I shouldn’t have limited myself to just complaining about new age guru’s abuse of “science” because it’s far more common and widespread on Madison Ave to sell products claiming absurd results. Nothing ad writers like more than putting a person in a white lab coat, using a bit scientific sounding jargon and tell viewers that this cream or pill will make you lose weight/ erase wrinkles/build muscle/make you young again/having you leap tall buildings in a single bound. Thinking about the matter just got me off on a general tangent.

  51. martyrathbun09

    Thanks for the clarification.

  52. martyrathbun09

    It is amazing to me to perceive the wide variety of the wavelenghts emanating from the intent and emotion behind the words posted in comments.

  53. The problem with the super natural is that it’s super natural, there is no way to test it.

    I get the same thing with being an atheist. People say you can’t prove there’s no god and I say correct but I don’t believe there’s a god because there’s no empirical evidence and on balance I tend to only believe things for which there is some evidence.

    My world is both fickle in that I’m prepared to change my mind if new evidence demonstrates a belief/ theory is wrong and full of doubt because I don’t know everything and “we” the human race don’t either. I wouldn’t have it any other way though.

  54. I read one of Mr. Emoto’s books a number of years ago. I think the very least that can be said is that the water crystal imagery can be stunningly beautiful.

    I am definitely of the view that we are able to affect the elements of our universe around us by our thoughts alone. And at least this stuff gets people thinking about whether we have more of an effect than we normally realise.

    On the other hand, this kind of experimental data can fuel the whole “you must only think and feel nice things” argument, even to the point where certain types of music or other influences are blanketly deemed “bad” for us due to their “negative effect” on our “body water”. I think it’s far more complex than that in real life.

    That’s why intention is key – it’s not so much about the outer form of the “communication”, but the meaning of what’s behind it.

    On a purely scientific level, this is obviously a nascent area of research and may be quite a bit too early to draw any real conclusions. However there are scientists working on it, such as a guy from Russia called Stanislav V. Zenin.

    It’s not easy to find solid information about this. But here’s something by Zenin under the title “The Water Informative State Discovery” on p. 16 (please excuse the long link):

  55. Water is undoubtedly fascinating stuff. I _believe_ that it could work the way Emoto shows. In a way it’s pity that nothing has been proven by science so far, on the other hand not everything we don’t know exactly how it works internally is a scam.
    For example I’ve been successfully using homoeopathy for almost 4 years by now, where the basic substance has given it’s wave pattern to water, which was further amplified by continuous dilution and so we end up with solution that can observably influence a person (regardless he’s healthy or ill), though it doesn’t have a single molecule of the original substance. But no one know how exactly that works, and therefore scientists tend to accuse homoeopathy of being a scam.
    The only sad thing is then when the fans speak about such a subject in terms of science, though they don’t know much about science. I don’t want to hold it against them, but such uninformed talks don’t give the subjects in question much credibility.

  56. Not sure how many videos you can see of Derren Brown’s in the USA but you should check him out. He’s a mentalist who does some really cool stuff with people’s minds.he seems to have a genuine knack of getting people to do things. These are no mere parlour tricks either. He managed to get someone to “assassinate” someone in a theatre, just like Lincoln was assasinated; all controlled conditions of course. He got several people to hold up a security van, again controlled conditions. And for the gamblers he even managed to convince bookies to pay out on loosing horses. Way more impressive than work on water.

  57. That’s what I thought too.

  58. Here’s an except from the Sheldrake video I posted below, which deals with what real scientists have to put up with regarding James Randi (starts at 0:49:08 in the video). Sheldrake is answering the typical million dollar James Randi question:

    “For the benefit of those who don’t know about him, there’s a conjurer called James Randi, who often appears on TV, and he’s a very anti- … he’s one of these idealogically motivated skeptics who believes psi is impossible. And he’s offered a million dollar prize — or says he has, there’s lots of question where he actually has the million dollars or where it is — for any successful test of psi. And people often say “Why don’t you apply for the Randi prize?” Well, it’s a very good question and I can tell you my answer.

    “First of all, this man is not a scientist. He has no scientific credentials or understanding. On his website, it says the prize must be won for people who produce an unequivocal demonstration of psi abilities that requires no expert analysis. That seems to rule out any statistical experiments.

    “Then he’s later said: “Oh, well, I will accept statistical experiments, but the odds against chance have got to be a million to one, to get the million dollar prize.” So if the odds against chance are 900,000 to one, you fail the test.

    “Third, you sign over to Randi all publicity rights, you have all legal waivers. So he has complete control of all publicity arising from this.

    “And fourth, and most important for me, he’s a liar. He’s a deceiver by profession, and he’s a deceiver by nature. And my reason for saying this, without being sued for libel, is that he wrote an article in a magazine about my dog research called “Dog World” (probably very few of you read “Dog World” but lots of people do) and in this he said that “We at the James Randi Educational Foundation have repeated Sheldrake’s experiments — they fail.” Then he said “We’ve also examined all his videotape from his experiments, and shown the dog goes to the window all the time. And it’s not as he says it is.” An unequivocal statement.

    “I’ve emailed him, asking him to give me the details of the experiments he’d done, what journal were they published in, where’s the data. Reasonable questions that a scientist would ask. He didn’t reply. I emailed again, he didn’t reply. So I emailed his Scientific Advisory board, and they advised him to reply. So he then replied and he said “Well, um, actually uh, these experiments were done many years ago when I looked after a friend’s dogs for a couple of weeks in New York, and I lost all the data — they were lost in a flood — so I’ve got no data and they’ve never been written up.”

    “So, what kind of evidence is that? If I produce evidence for psi, and say “Well I did them years ago, I’ve lost all the data, but just believe me”, he wouldn’t go for that, I’m sure.

    “And then the examination of the video tapes, he had to admit he’d never seen the video tapes — he’d simply made that up.

    “Now with a man with such a low degree of honesty, I don’t think he should be an arbiter of scientific credibility or truth.

    “I do believe however that real skeptics — people with proper skeptical scientific training and who have a track record of honesty rather than dishonesty — are worth engaging with. And that’s why I’m doing joint experiments with Professor Chris French right now.”

  59. On that same subject also see ‘Forbidden Knowledge TV’, THE AFTERLIFE INVESTIGATIONS:
    The Scole Experiments.

  60. AnonOrange,
    Why would any reputable scientist pay any attention to James Randi? And for that matter, why would you when you claim to be such a big supporter of “real science” and scientific evidence?

  61. AO
    Dowsing also seems not to work under so called “scientific conditions” (talk about a hostile, negating atmosphere!) yet dowsers are finding water year in and year out, even in areas where geologists say there is NO water.
    Hasn’t Quantum physics just proven that the observer influences the experiment?
    The strongest impulse of a thetan is to be right and Service Facsimiles aren’t far away.
    I happily still wear a gold ring I found in a creek when just demonstrating the dowsing rods to a buddy. That took 5 minutes.
    There is tons more.

  62. Same goes for plants with classical music, well NO milk.
    The book “THE SECRET LIFE OF PLANTS” by Peter Tompkins & Christopher Bird gives ample evidence.

  63. I think you have the answer. I find it is both. That is how it works for me and it is logical that it does. Thoughts doe effect things and it works through the universe to be so, so they are not in conflict.

  64. Just checked out Derren Brown paying with blank pieces of paper. Wow!

  65. Les,
    There are some fascinating experiments that have been done by Raymond Grace (an Appalachian mountain man, dowser, healer) and healer friends.
    Some years ago they were experimenting with increasing the energy field of the water and were successful at increasing that energy field from a few inches to many feet out.
    5-8 healers present significantly increased the field of water in a swimming pool. People went into the pool with various aches and came out with no or greatly reduced aches and pains.
    From those experiments a whole ‘water project’ was born. At the 2006 dowsing convention I saw the results of adding a little ‘high energy water’ to a very polluted lake. The photos before and after were stunning. Scientists had no answer as to why that lake had recovered so beautifully.
    We then did a project all over the US of adding some of this beneficial water to our local waters.
    If you want more details, read his book “THE FUTURE IS YOURS, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT”.
    Les, of course you are already doing the right thing by continuing to flow affinity to self and others’ bodies.

  66. LOL. I perceived the wavelength of the meaning of that.

  67. I have imagined what thoughts can do to us! Interesting video. I was very happy to see Marlee Matlin and paid most attention to her. 🙂

  68. When I’d been in Scientology only a few months, and was a Power Release (and Clear but not knowing it at the time), I did an experiment to see if I could control mest with intention alone. I got some dice, and threw them into a box intending them to come up 7. All alone, after a few minutes of practice, I was able to throw 7 about 80% of the time, including one string of about 12 in a row. Excited, I then tried to show this OT ability to my friends, and failed utterly.

    The reason for that failure was immediately obvious to me. Alone, only my intention was affecting the dice. But in a group, the intentions, expectations, and acceptance levels of everyone watching the dice came into play, affecting both the dice and my own intention. I found that I could not disagree with the group strongly enough to throw a string of 7’s. It almost felt like it would be an overt to do so.

    In the case of the attempted replication of Emoto’s experiments by others, the water was affected by the intentions, expectations, and acceptance levels of those others, in the same way as my dice. Rather than proving theta to have no effect on MEST, this proved that theta does indeed have an effect. At least it proved it to Emoto.

    In the 60’s and 70’s in Scientology there were many instances of genuine OT phenomena overriding physical law. That was because our group was more tech oriented, more freedom oriented, and had not yet had our internal ARC eroded by added-inapplicable control from bottom-of-the-Bridge management bureaucrats dramatizing all the wrong intentions, expectations, and acceptance levels.

    The truth is that the only thing that DOES exist is theta. MEST is just a surface apparency that is totally determined by the sea of theta underneath. Unfortunately, on this planet 99.999% of that theta has agreed to certain realities. Our task is to get one thetan at a time up the Bridge, while maintaining good ARC within our own group. Then the freedom to disagree with MEST will grow, and the magic will return.

  69. martyrathbun09

    You are one of the more incisive people who have graced this blog.

  70. Right on! That was what I got out of Mr. Emoto’s book as well.
    And while we are at it, LRH’s important article “CONSIDERATIONS AND MECHANICS”, which had always been in ‘Scientology 0-8’ has now been transferred by DM into ‘Creation of Human Ability’, no mention of it in the index. It is now squeezed in, amongst other text -really well hidden- on page 24. Please make a note of that.

  71. The most fundamental definition of God is the answer to the ultimate question, “Where did existence itself come from?” On that basis, everyone believes in God, even so-called atheists. The only disagreement is on what the answer is, not that it exists. Even if we can’t know it, it exists.

  72. Why otherwise would we work so hard to become OT?

  73. A friend of mine about 5 years ago started posting little I Love You and Thank You notes on his water.

    Did it change the water? — how do I know.

    BUT, it did change him a little bit. He started to become aware of being kind.

    Just like — I try never to kill even an insect. If there is a spider in the tub I get it out of the tub before I run the water.

    Is this because I believe (as buddhists do) that all life was once my mother — no! That’s too big a stretch for me.

    BUT it does make me more aware of LIFE and therefore I think I’m getting somewhat kinder …

    Incrementally 🙂

    If we wake up in a sad/bad/crummy mood – get out of bed feeling like hell, chances are the day is going to follow …

    Instead if we wake up sad/bad/or crummy I’ve found if I can change my mind/focus/attention — I have a better chance at not having a terribly sad/bad/crummy day.

    No guarantees though 🙂

  74. Socrates tells a story about the first scientist, Thales, having fallen into a well while trying to observe the stars. His handmaid joked about him ”How canst thou know what is doing in the heavens, when thy seest not what is at thy feet?”

    Human existence is as human beings live it. A philosophy of life must come from life as a humans live it, not from something humans are incapable of being, and unhappy to try.

    Science will never provide a sustainable philosophy of life, no matter how much some people push it. I think any human philosophy must contain meaning and wonder and spirituality – because that’s how humans exist best. Science can never provide meaning to human beings, nor test anything spiritual.

    Another great writer is quoted as saying, “There are more things in heaven and earth, AnonOrange,Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

  75. Derren Brown is an amazing master hypnotist, and a great teacher in the lesson of credulity. I posted about him on my Free Your Mind forum 3 weeks ago.

    In this video, Derren Brown proves how a man can be taken off the street and trained in 6 months on how to be a fake faith healer. Derren proves how this industry is a scam, and how thousands of Christians are hoodwinked into believing something not real. In the end of this video, the truth is exposed, leaving a stunned Christian audience in cognitive dissonance.

  76. 2bc – I like how you think. I too, have an educated science background (at least that is what it is referred to as). Too many assume that science means only those things that can be proven are true. Well, the earth was not flat until proven to be round. “Science” had not created the means or application to prove the existence of a basically round planet.

    I, long ago, in my study determined that the outcome of science could either show something to be true, false or still unknown (uncertain, or a maybe). The validity of the scientific application to prove something is only as valid as the ability to measure all variables and correct interpret the outcome.

    I believe you see the same thing. I can personally observe things I cannot prove. That doesn’t make them untrue, merely some part of it remains unknown to me. I don’t know if you were ever a student of scientology but I do enjoy your input here in this group.

  77. I am surfing the waves of the meaning of that!

  78. There is something to this idea of thoughts and water. Man has known this for thousands of years, even if no one is clear exactly how it works.

    People all over the world assign water the ability to hold postulates. Two examples I can think of are making a toast over a glass of wine, and wishing wells.

  79. “You can’t talk to water.” Interesting. Why not? I’m talking to a keyboard and a laptop right now!

    I think what you mean to say is, the water can’t talk back? cannot understand the reception or content of the communication at it?

    I wonder, if you yell at the water loud enough, if it would ripple? Isn’t that communication?

    Welcome to Quantum Physics, Baby!! 😉

  80. OMG, Marty!!! I can’t believe you posted that video clip here!!! Rock Star!
    I hope you could dig the movie as much as I did. AgentOrange can suck an egg. That movie rocks! Next LT… totally going for a PhD in Quantum Theory, as well as finishing the bridge, getting my black belt in martial arts, and a couple other things. 😉

  81. martyrathbun09

    Are you serious? I didn’t even watch it, and can tell you positively he proved ‘nothing’ of the sort that you asserted. I am beginning to worry about your spiritual health.

  82. The video needs to be watched, first, so one can see if my assertion is correct. The point is, a scuba diver instructor within six months, who’s never preached, learned how to dupe a Christian audience into believing he was a faith healer. I’m stunned how this can be portrayed as something wrong with me.

  83. martyrathbun09

    This statement: Derren proves how this industry is a scam, and how thousands of Christians are hoodwinked into believing something not real. Perhaps I should have clarified what you meant by “this industry”.

  84. Aha. I see where I could have been misunderstood. I only meant the Faith Healing industry in Christian ministry. I don’t believe it’s legitimate. The word “prove” could have been a bit strong. But he definitely demonstrated how people can be conned in the faith healing ministry in Christianity.

  85. martyrathbun09

    I didn’t know there was an “industry.” Christian faith healers who use prayer are essentially doing the same thing as Eastern and indigenous faith healers. They are directing intention to heal. To dismiss that practice in general as fraud would be rather narrow minded or ignorant; but apparently that is not what you were doing.

  86. Before the beginning, there was the great water…

    More on the subject (including Dr. Emoto’s experiments).

  87. Indeed I am a student of Scientology. In fact, I was even a member of the David Miscavige’s church for about 20 years. Hardly had any movement on the Bridge in all that time thanks to all the stops they throw at you. Now I’m with Free Zone Elma and I’m flying! =)

  88. Great news on flying along! You shall greatly enjoy the journey and the destination isn’t bad either. With the correct and unfixed viewpoint you will have some really good realizations and moments of ah-ha….

    We shall continue to travel for a time on this blog.

  89. Not to generalize, but maybe televangelist faith healers could fall into this scam territory – if they’re scammers, that is. I saw one guy on TV selling a scrap of prayer cloth from him to heal yourself with or some such thing. I mean, if you’ve got the money and you truly believe it’ll heal you, then I suppose it could. Safe, that video is over an hour long. I’ll have to go with your summation.

  90. In short, it sounds like Randi is a quack.

  91. AO,

    In fact, anyone can talk to water. Just as anyone can talk to God. It’s called “praying”. However, in our Western society, any common person who claims that God talks to him, is referred to psychiatrists for diagnosis.

    Perhaps it is the same with water.

  92. scilonschools

    Free thought, freedom of speech, no idea boundries and mature respectful interchange (on the whole!), this blog pushes the envelope further each day, humbled to witness 🙂

  93. This is what I’m talking about.

    “To enrich oneself on the suffering of others, to tantalize the blind, the lame, the dying, afflicted, the terminally ill, and to dangle hope before parents of a severely afflicted child is an indescribably thing to do. And to do it in the name of God, and do it in the name of religion I think is unforgivable.” – Rabbi Harold S. Kushner

  94. The relationship between mood and physical healing is an interesting one. Google psychoneuroimmunology and you will find a growing body of research that links a higher tone level with stronger immunity and the ability to heal. Religious experience and even the placebo effect included. Similarly, when one is stressed or anxious the body’s defences are reduced and more susceptible. This, I believe, is what Hubbard was referring to on the subject of PTSness and illness. Fascinating stuff. 🙂

  95. What counts is your personal experience. This video says that ideas (thought) can influence matter. In my day to day work business I see that almost every day. I am a computer support man. Starting from „I cannot find my icon“ to server crash or network outage I have to handle all that. Oddly enough people demand that you know everything about that problem they have and you can do magic and fix it within seconds. But when I actually do „magic“ (like pushing the on button they pushed 10 times and now computer starts or things like that) they cannot beleive in magic. So my newest excuse is to say „this computer needed a professional reboot by a technician“. My point here is: I can do magic with physical universe objects like computers sometimes. (by the way, magic and intention alone is not good enough. I know the basics straight. I learned how to build a computer in the 70ies, have an education in electronics and programming.) Books and movies about magic are bestsellers. (Harry Potter) But as soon as the readers and watchers see magic in real life they cannot see it. And if they notice then „it must be somehting else“.

  96. Safe: Here’s my take. We are all have been conned, are conned and unless we work pretty damn hard 24/7 will continue to be conned.

    And just what is conned? Duped into believing something by someone that isn’t true. Then making matters worse, paying for that right? Then even worse, telling others about your great new group, friend, restaurant, book, religion, lover …

    Instead of railing AGAINST the “con artists” or saying how we’ve been duped by dm etc — why not change perspective and say THANKS!!!!

    I am now MUCH more able to really see deception. Might take me a few minutes (months, years) but I can damn well friggin guarantee you it wont take me 20 years.

    I just left my buddhist group — felt like it was going in the direction of top down management, very exclusive-clique feeling amongst the older members — painful indeed to leave but very refreshing knowing that I can see pretty clearly … (NOTE: I did NOT leave buddhism)

    And to those who are conned — well, frankly, that is working for them.

    Remember — someone stays where they are BECAUSE it is working for them on some level.

    Test it.


  97. Great observation. I’ve noticed the same things regarding my own postuates!
    Which is why after 37 years and plenty of counter intention I’ve never been able to walk away from LRH’s brand of Scientology.

  98. martyrathbun09

    Yeah, of course, goes without saying. Took your 30 minute video off. Watch the original 2 minute video I posted and compare it to where you have gone with this thread.

  99. Me too, Christine, because of all the deceit in religion and government, I have heightened awareness in spotting bullshit. So I am very thankful that I’ve seen great living examples of what I do NOT want.

  100. If the idea was to lead the conversation in the direction wanted, perhaps a preamble to the video could have been written to make the point you intended. I just gave my sincere observation to what I saw, and what I saw was deceit and bullshit. So I looked at it as a lesson in credulity. Heaven knows how we’ve been led in corporate Scientology through deceit. My added video was to add clarity to what I was trying to communicate in this thread.

    For those left in a mystery about what the video was about, it was a documentary about sick people “God” healed through Benny Hinn’s thoughts thoughts (and other evangelists). The ailing were followed up a year later. One 9 year old who was “healed” by Benny’s hands, died 2 months later. His parents had donated thousands to his “ministry” in hope, along with 1,000’s of others. A women with cancer who “Jesus” healed in front of an audience of 1,000’s, died from her lung cancer 9 months later. This video documents this taking advantage of the gullible through duplicity. It’s criminal. I despise these kind of deceitful and greedy Christian ministries, and mourn for the victims and families who believe (or believed) they’d be healed, who were not.

  101. martyrathbun09

    The post was about someone demonstrating the idea that considerations take rank over matter, energy, space and time.

  102. Wayne — I watched the whole thing. Those he targeted are shysters. Not real “faith healers” other than possibly through power of suggestion making some heal themselves by thinking they can do so. The “preachers” are the ones that have hidden earpieces and tell people “God told me your name….” because they have passed out information cards beforehand that the suckers fill out. They show “growing people’s legs” by sliding the heel of their shoes down and then pushing them back up — like scam artist “street healers” do through sleight of hand. These “preachers” also tell people that if they give them money they will achieve the same results as someone else who donated $1000 to “God’s Mission” and was “cured of cancer” or “got a new Cadillac”.

    In fact, the end of the program shows the fake “faith healer” (who was a scuba instructor in real life and was schooled in how to deceive people with the tricks of the trade) telling the people that he has just “healed” that they should NOT give him money, it’s wrong to require people to pay but they should continue with their faith.

    The problem is that many viewers may equate ANYONE who does “faith healing” with these criminal rip-off artists. Not that the ones he exposed weren’t complete criminals using tricks and scams to suck money out of people (and BTW, the house that the main guy lives in and his “Security Force” were errily reminiscent of Gold).

  103. My radar on bullshit is set to an extreme high now, to question everything. I’m so done with duplicity being used on me and others. So I tend to look from ‘3 feet behind the head’ of what anybody tries to promote to me. I wrote what I observed. From my searches, the leader behind the video you posted is “Ramtha”, a dead warrior from Atlantis who addresses us through his “channeler”, a woman called JZ (Judy) Knight, founder of the Ramtha Cult who sponsored this film.

    Interestingly, thirty-five thousand years in the grave has not dulled Ramtha’s business sense, either. (s)He charges $1,000 per counseling session. Considering the source, puts in question anything promoted, including the false data that 90% of our body’s are water, as promoted in the film. Just one false datum is enough to red flag my radar. Because of the source and false datum in the video, it was an uncredible example to demonstrate the truth of your message you intended, IMO.

  104. Very interesting discussion. I agree with the scientific criticisms of the water conclusions. At the same time, there are valid criticisms (sometimes under the topic of scientism) of those who feel that science is the only way of knowing. Perhaps, to use Jungian terms, science is rational knowing and there are other ways of knowing that Jung called irrational (which does not mean illogical or dismissible, by the way).

    So in that context, what the scientific experiments with water show is really limited to showing a high probability (nothing is certain 100% in science, maybe not even in math) that the effect on water is not replicate-able. It does not follow from that that the effect is not real. It could operate on different parameters that are not available to replication. It could be that not all of the parameters that could be tested scientifically have been identified — it is difficult in a complex system to control every factor. It could be that an experimental setting inadvertently nullifies certain effects.

    In the Cartesian-Newtonian paradigm, science held that the entire universe would ultimately be predictable in every regard. It became clear that wouldn’t work — even keeping track of one solar system exactly is not possible, much less all of the atoms and molecules in that solar system.

    So agreed — the water effects have not passed scientific tests. But — maybe that’s the wrong mode of knowing to be testing them in.

    By the way, I do believe that everything should be tested scientifically. Our world and standard of living exists because of science, not faith. When something does pan out using the scientific method, that does not mean it is “true” — but it does give us a post-positivist sense that we are getting our arms around some sort of “reality.”

    Likewise, when something does not pan out via the scientific method, that does not mean it is false. That’s not how science works either. There are numerous examples of both “false positive” and “false negative” readings in science, and the recognition of this is reflected in statistics (in type I and type II errors, for example).

    Newton’s insistence that light was formed of particles and not waves held back science for a long time. He was simply wrong, but his was accepted as the authoritative scientific opinion or “fact” of that era.

    Things that were once judged as scientifically very wrong sometimes get vindicated over time. This website has a list of some examples:

    Who knows? Eventually the water experiments may actually be vindicated via science and/or some other way of knowing?

  105. Long ago I worked for a natural gas company. We occasionally had to find leaks in underground gas lines. One guy used equipment that passed a slight current through the pipe where it came out of the ground. He then swept over the probable path of the pipe with a magnetometer and located the pipe that way usually within 1-2 leeway in either direction.

    Another older guy on the crew liked to compete to see who could find the offending pipe first. He used two welding rods from the crew truck, bending them into an L shape so they had a short section to hold in his hands. Then he would “dowse” for the pipe.

    Almost always, it was the “dowser” who found the pipes first and found them more accurately. I don’t recall the “dowser” having any false hits, but I do recall the magnetometer operator occasionally having problems, if memory serves.

    Maybe it’s like when you are standing somewhere and the hair stands up on the back of your neck. You know someone is looking at you. You turn around, and yes. There he/she is. Can you replicate something like that in an experiment? I don’t think so, and I think that in part it is because that you are _observing_ in a different, non-natural way in an experiment, and that fundamental change itself influences what you are trying to observe, making your goal of verification through experiment unachievable.

  106. Somebody said: “If you think you can, you’re right. If you think you cannot, you are right”.

    Some diet strugglers finally broke through after changing only their view of themselves. Some always saw a fat persion, nothing else and they “knew” it was impossible for anything else, and it was. Some finally saw the thinner healthier person within, and helped to free that person. Both are self-fulfilling prophecies. or, stated differently, self created truths. I like the inspiration:from Michaelangelo. He did not see the block of marble in front of him. He saw the figure trapped within it, in perfect detail. Then he set about to free it, chip by careful hammer chip. Are these visions illusions? They are not tangible, defy measurement and seem impossible. So?

    Some people curse and swear while picking burrs out of their pants after a hike. But some stop and let their imagination soar unrestrained. (Is imagination not real because you can’t measure it?). Thus Velcro.

    Why stay in a flat world? Why not move into a sphere or even a multidimensioned one?

    How can you know something you have not found out yet?

  107. martyrathbun09

    Ok. Thanks. Have you experienced that thought and emotion can effect matter, energy, space and time?

  108. NICE! Thanks for saying this and for posting that link. There is common ground, and there is potential for furthering understanding by a dialogue between science and spirituality. Neither has to invalidate the other. Still yet, one must have a healthy bullshit-meter (aka, critical thinking).

    It does bother me that conversation is often blunted on this blog by verbal assaults leveled against those with viewpoints that do not conform to the dominant, shared ideals and beliefs of this blog/community.


  109. I share your rant and general tangent.

  110. Cool!Fun!Water!!

  111. Li'll bit of stuff

    profant, I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments here.
    Thanks for filling in some missing bits about you too!
    I’m pleased we’re not saddled with another of what LRH
    termed “the brain theory boys” and you DID answer my
    question to you earlier.Peace & kudos to you bro’.

  112. Ok man, thanks for the acknowledgement and you’re welcome to be critical about anything I write, provided you’re criticizing a real thing.

  113. Li'll bit of stuff

    You got it!

  114. Li'll bit of stuff

    Steve, I’ve read his books and listened to the
    companion cd’s that are filled with the calming
    sounds of moving water. The resonance Emoto
    refers to regarding water, is described as being
    akin to actively reflecting in a mirror, in that water
    somehow is imbued with the “impressions” of the
    activities and active tones wihin it’s range of
    “perception” ie.the gross waves of violent music,
    or the harmonic aesthetics of a classical piece.
    The studies have set out to show that “mere water”
    is in fact, anything but, and indeed, appears to
    have a sensitivity that will surprise even the most
    dismissive, if they are able to shift their viewpoint
    enough to actually perceive the results.
    Awesome in it’s marvelous simplicity. Check his
    work out. You will definitely be captivated!

  115. It sure is true that not everything by a long way has been discovered about water. It’s funny stuff, unlike any other “simple” compound found in nature. Finding out about things is good – curiosity and healthy obnosis gets a person a long way. BUT it is vitally important to align any findings to LRH’s teachings, providing they are well understood. Getting off track from the Axioms and Logics is all too easy.
    Just my 2 cents.

  116. “I dare say the reason Marty posted it, is because it makes a point about how thoughts affect us. A person’s own thoughts are the primary causal agent affecting anyone’s life.”

    I didn’t think so. The reason? This basic idea is Scientology 101, something all Scientologists here know already, so why preach this idea to the choir? That’s why I didn’t think that was his intent. So I looked at the duplicity in the video (that our body’s are 90% water), and thought he was trying to teach a lesson on how one is so able to easily believe what they’re told, a lesson in credulity.

    I really didn’t think he was posting the video as “evidence” that thought effects matter, because the clip showed a severe lack of or sufficient evidence to be able to believe what was said, based on that video.

  117. Li'll bit of stuff

    Han, one of Ron’s better quotes comes to mind:
    ” They lack the humility of vast wisdom….”
    (this is in support of Emoto’s findings, BTW!)

  118. When we do things without expectation or wanting to prove something to not only others, but ourselves…we then open ourselves to what is…that which we experience. Trust in oneself, ones experiences, without the wanting of exposure of the results… can it be proven? What is the purpose of wanting proof for others to see…is not what we experience proof enough? Most get caught up in the story, the phenomena…make it an identity of sorts. Is not a simple doing, like a kind thought, a kind action, enough? Seems that we need sensation, exposure, whatever…then what happens? Usually it gets debunked and rightfully so…the left hand is never to know what the right hand is doing…J.

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