Aggravated Assault and Battery by David Miscavige

Lest we forget what happened to Scientology Inc., watch Steve Hall on David Miscavige:

Learn more about Steve Hall at his website,


236 responses to “Aggravated Assault and Battery by David Miscavige

  1. Pingback: Aggravated Assault and Battery by David Miscavige | Martyrathbun09's Blog

  2. scilonschools

    In the interest of Fact Checking and Halse Data stripping, is the below an accurate depiction of LRH’s ORIGINAL Tech?


    Issues 3-G, 4-G & 5-G
    [1952, ca. late Sept., early Oct. & late Oct.]
    Published by
    The Hubbard Association of Scientologists, Inc.
    Phoenix, Arizona

    Danger: Black Dianetics!

    L. Ron Hubbard


    Death, insanity, aberration, or merely a slavish obedience can
    be efficiently effected by the use of Black Dianetics*. Further,
    adequate laws do not exist at this time to bar the use of these
    techniques. The law provides that only the individual so wronged
    can make complaint or swear out a warrant for offend using
    these techniques.

    A person on whom Black Dianetics has been employed seldom
    retains the sanity or will to make a complaint, or does not
    know he has been victimized. In addition, persons claiming such
    offenses against their persons are commonly catalogued by
    doctors as suffering from delusion. Thus the employer of Black
    Dianetics can escape unpunished under existing legal

  3. Why, o, why, are there still people working for Miscavige? There must be something awfully wrong with a person who stays in the vicinity of this raving lunatic. Why, o why, does not everybody just walk away …?
    Is this lunacy contageous? Is it a speciffic Scientology related disease? I wish I knew.

  4. This kind of battery can do real damage to a person’s neck and spine which can cause major problems down the road, with all sorts of mysterious symptoms. The proper form of chiropractic care can handle the damage over time, but the person’s life quite can be quite uncomfortable in the meantime.

  5. Jesus Christ. I thought that after all this I couldn’t be left speechless, but I am.

  6. Tom Gallagher

    Miscavige is living proof that there is no such thing as a civilized baboon.

  7. Thankyou Steve,
    What complete lunacy and insane behaviour is this by a leader of the church, didn’t Ron write a policy not to assualt anybody ? by his fruits you should know him and his day will come, what goes around comes around. David Miscaviage is not only insane but he is also a lunatic. Steve i just heard some news on the radio that Western Australia Perth org is moving and they are buying another building for an ideal org because the demanad to serve the public is to much and they need a bigger premises, another thing said was that Australia has 300,000 members. What an absoulute discrase the orgs here are dead except maybe for Melbourne and Sydney and they are lying to the public like this and its made headlines in a major newspaper in perth.
    Thankyou Steve
    A.R.C Eric

  8. You know Marty when you guys first brought this activity to light I was beyond shocked. Upon further inspection my conclusion was that even as public I would have allowed this kind of treatment being done to me by high ranking SO members. It never did of course but the sad truth is that’s the mentality deep inside.
    Your eternity is dangled before you.

  9. It is apparent to all of us that Miscavige cannot control his rage.

    Why? Going purely on a neurological basis, I posit that due to childhood trauma (asthma and the feeling of dying, being unable to breathe) has left him with synapses that go directly from the amygdala directly to reaction.

    He has not developed any buffer system. This happens with those who have childhood trauma.

    Research at the University of California San Francisco Medical Center confirms that “experienced buddhists who meditate regularly don’t get shocked, flustered, surprised, or angry to the degree that other people do and showed that meditation practice appears to tame the mind.”

    Clearly dm has/had a karmic predisposition (past life) to what cards he was dealt early in his life. Clearly HAD he been in any sort of “real world” corporate life he would have been 1) fired 2) arrested 3) made to do anger management 4) and more recently given a choice of meditation practice or prison.

    Meditation is becoming more and more accepted as a means by which to calm the mind AND to “reprogram” those synapses which are hard-wired to go from situation to rage in no time flat.

    TRs I’m guessing could do the same thing as regardless of what has been said on this board by others – including meditators – are definitely a FORM of meditation as the purpose is to be here now. (and repeated often enough, would probably rewire those synapses quite nicely 🙂


  10. We have for a long time been hearing how Scientology has been rapidly growing.
    I assumed this was just a lie to keep money flowing to d.m.
    But now I wonder if maybe he really believes it himself and has gone completely PTS type 3 (insane, nuts, delusional)?
    It must be hell to live with yourself when you have that many major overts.

  11. “A civilization without insanity, without criminals and without war…?”

    Not on davie’s watch, it would seem.

  12. Great job Steve!!
    Beautiful home too!
    I think it’s your house as I recall you installing that fireplace yourself right?

    I’m sorry you had to experience that Mike. I think you will have the last laugh though..

  13. Christine — I think his karmic predisposition is unhandled evil purposes and destructive intentions. He R/Ses in the physical universe….

  14. Tony — I already have. I’m longer in that universe of insanity. He is not only still in it, he is the center of it in every sense of the word.

  15. Interesting that you would ask if this is “an accurate description of LRH’s original tech”.

    When I read over the excerpt you quoted, it struck me as completely obvious that LRH was issuing a warning about the potential for harm from the practice of what he called “black” dianetics.

    When someone says “adequate laws” do not exist, does it not imply that the writer would like to see “adequate laws” in place – but, in their absence, warn people about the potential for harm?

    Sometimes I think LRH is damned if he did and damned if he didn’t. If he KNEW his discovery (Dianetics) could be used to do harm, would he not be somewhat derelict not to warn people about it? Especially at a time when all sorts of people were running around altering the technology but still representing it as “Dianetics”.

    As far as I’m concerned, if anything, LRH did not go far enough in terms of warning people, especially Scientologists, about the potential for misuse of the tech. Especially given what MIscavige has been able to get away with.

  16. Well tessa, I didn’t stay in the vicinity, that was the actually day I decided to pay any price to get out of there. That price was unimaginably steep. I had to leave my wife of 16 years behind who I was still dearly in love with. I had to also leave behind everyone I had known for 20 years, all my friends and potential business contacts who would have been willing to hire me on the outside. And I had to go out into the world with nothing — no friends, no place to live, no money, no job, no resume, no credit. The trap grew up around us slowly over the years and by the time we realized how bad it was, it was too late to get out. For example, when I was moved up to the Int base in 1989, there were no fences. I could freely call anyone anywhere I wanted, my parents, the police, etc. It was easy to drive away because there were no gates or guard booths. Then in 1990, the phone lines were cut (by David Micavige). Then the fence went up “to protect us from intruders.” Cameras, motion detectors and security lights were put up everywhere. And the “blow drill” was developed to go after and retrieve anyone who tried to escape. I knew one girl who was kept in isolation under 24-hour guard for two years after she was caught trying to escape. The Internet came along and cell phones, but we “didn’t need them” so never had access. There was not even a pay phone. There was a guard 24/7 on the mountainside overlooking the entire property who was able to track people up to 9 miles away with a high powered telescope. Getting out was not easy. And it was really not easy to leave someone you loved dearly. The night I arrived back in Dallas, I walked around my mom’s neighborhood until 5 am tears streaming down my face from the loss of my wife. But I had tried everything and was unable to get through to her.

    So to really answer your question, you have to take this situation out of Scientology. It really has nothing to do with Scientology. It has everything to do with a sociopath. The way I was trapped is the same way the Jews were trapped in Nazi Germany, is the same way countless others are trapped around these kinds of manipulative, malignant, ultra toxic, genocidal personalities.

    The solution for the group is to publish their crimes as we are doing to protect others from danger, and the solution personally is to learn to recognize the type of spider so you can see the web when they first start to weave it and crush them under foot when they are yet small.

  17. Thanks Tony, yep, I did the fireplace and the chimney and a lot more. Hopefully we can swap stories around it someday soon.

  18. Steve,
    I really love your interview! You’ve gone far and beyond the call of duty to get the truth out and to help other people. For that I will always respect you and be forever grateful!!

  19. Mike –

    Certainly that is true. It doesn’t negate the fact that HIS body has AS A result of those unhandled evil purposes the inability to put ANY space between being pushed and reacting.

    In his case, as in the case of many of us — the Thetan is NOT senior to his body.

    Since he is probably NEVER going to get his evil purposes or destructive intentions audited NOR ever going to sit down to meditate — it’s all moot ultimately, isn’t it?

    He cannot control himself. Period.

    I will add that all the auditing on ExDn, as well as FRPD, as well at L10 etc did not enable me to NOT fly into a rage (although I wasn’t violent physically) … however, meditation has helped put a bit of space between upset and rage so that I fly less … 🙂

    And just to be clear — this inability stems from childhood trauma which not everyone (on the board – or otherwise) has experienced. And I’m not talking about not being taken to the ball game when desired. 🙂

    I’m sure the auditing helped as I’ve said over and over to enable me to meditate and achieve some semblance of clarity/calmness.


  20. C — understood. And the bottom line is you are right. It makes no difference as either way its not going to be handled. And he is someone who certainly could not medidate — remember JB’s story about trying to take him fishing….

  21. Don’t you mean “in the interest of running propaganda operations against Ron Hubbard” ?

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  22. Steve, Marty, Mike. I have to ask you and anyone else who was at Int level.
    Had none of you ever read and duplicated Intro to Scientology Ethics?
    Page 362-363. Levels Of Ethics and Justice Actions
    The most severe degree of ethics actions allowed in a Scientology Organization are;
    “34. Denial of auditing or training by a comm ev for a considerable period of time.”
    “35. Dismissal.”
    “36.Expulsion from Scientolgy.”
    “The above is a rough guide to the severity of disiciple.
    Putting up with this shit from d.m. shows an incredible lack of ability to know and apply basic LRH policy.
    We should probably all declare ourselves suppressive (you get the condition that you fail to assign) do our own steps A-E and retrain from the begining.
    I say “we” because I certainly have my own ethics blind spots and non confront of evil.

  23. The ONLY thing that would happen IF he were to sit down and TRY to look at his mind is that he would start screaming and not stop — until he was put into a straight jacket, highly medicated and carted away.

    I’ve heard it happen to others at retreats and dm is many times worse than anyone I’ve heard about who has “lost it”

    Meditation would eliminate that paper thin veneer that makes him appear able to function in the real world.

    Yes — I love the fishing story.

  24. You apparently answered your own question (“I say “we” because I certainly have my own ethics blind spots and non confront of evil”) so presumably this is one of those questions you are asking “on behalf of other readers”?

    To answer your question anyway, yes, I have read and duplicated Intro to Scn Ethics. And a lot of other policy and books and tech that was being violated. It’s why I am no longer there.

  25. Great comment Steve. You left. Why did not all leave already. This has puzzled me too, and I have concluded that all these people now trapped have had hundreds of opportunities to see where this was going and face the suppression. Like Heber for instance. In the 80:ies he was told he had to petition in order to have another child. And when he did petition it was suppressively refused. Right there and then he could and should have told Miscavige to fuck off.

  26. Thanks to all who stand up, speak out, and make it known. It is your right to speak the truth. It is even a duty. Who ever thought the day would come when being a Scientologist would mean suppressing the truth? I did not read that on, “What we expect of a Scientologist”. Yet people are being punished for speaking the truth. The true test of a thetan is the ability to confront an inconvenient truth.

  27. Although I haven’t witnessed it personally I would hazard that there is an element of pre-meditation in his violent outbursts. Various studies have postulated (regular english definition of the word) that the perpetrator is deriving pleasure – and of a sexual nature – from the violence itself. For example

    I can easily imagine him rockslamming away as he smashes some one’s head into a wall, or kicks them repeatedly while they are on the ground. Whether from childhood trauma or not, the acts themselves are akin to sadomasochism, the fact of deriving some sort of “high” – usually sexual – from inflicting violence. In short, he enjoys it, of that I am certain.

    That said, there is plenty to celebrate in Steve’s short clip, Flipping burgers? Don’t think so. Gorgeous house, 2D, great cars, great friends. That’s what you “suffer” when you get out of DM’s grip. I have had the honour of meeting Steve, and for those that haven’t, he is the model of some one at ease with themselves, and the model of personal integrity. It was Steve’s testimony more than anything else in the Truth Rundown in 2009 that finally deconstructed reverse-Scientology for me and laid it bare. For that I will always be grateful.

  28. Me too.

  29. Best explanation (and history) I have seen.

  30. Steve,

    That is a great description of how we got into stuff like that and how we got out, the price of leaving once so thoroughly embedded.

  31. ” The way I was trapped is the same way the Jews were trapped in Nazi Germany, …”

    I wouldn’t compare yourself to the Jews in concentration camps. There was NO way they could escape. Most people found the Int Base hard to leave mainly because of the brainwashing and mind control that a cult has over a person, as evidenced by the fact that some even came back after having escaped. A Jewish person would have never voluntarily come back to a concentration camp. Never. This comment is insulting to those of us who have had relatives die in concentration camps and death camps. It’s not the same thing.

  32. He releases these rages because they work. Ordinary people are so shocked and stunned by the behavior that they become frozen and offer no resistance. This includes witnesses as well as immediate victims. It takes a lot to wake up from the shock and fight back/get out.

  33. The little prick. He was standing in front of me one day fuming like you describe and he tried to bust me off post. I pointed out to him that I was Staff Status V and that he had to comm ev me off post first because I was upstat. He stood there looking at the wall above my head, not confronting me, for a full 3 minutes flexing his jaw muscles. I was willing to bet good money right then that he was going to throw down on me but he didn’t because there were 2 things wrong: 1) he was alone and so was I – just the two of us, and 2) he sensed I was martial arts trained because I did shift my hips just ever so slightly to accomodate a jab or a foot sweep. Either way I woulda taken his ass down and I would have “lost everything”. I would have gone into a defense mode which is what I was trained to do and I would not have been able to stop myself fron defending myself. I would have carried it no further other than to subdue him but it would have cost me dearly.
    But the point is that he was alone and that’s what stopped him, nothing else. He would never try anything with anyone if he were one on one, that’s for sure. The only power an SP has is the power of restimulation and with a big group around him when he does his violence thing, it feeds him like gasoline on an already raging inferno. Its the fear he feeds off of.
    “Now here one must realize something. The suppressive finds outlet for his or her unexpected rage by carefully needling those they are connected with into a howling anger.” LRH HCO PL HANDLING THE SUPPRESSIVE PERSON THE BASIS OF INSANITY.


  34. I suggest you re-read the sentence you quote. He makes no mention of “concentration camps.” There is no doubt the Jews could not leave concentration camps. But, there was plenty of time to leaver Germany earlier when the rhetoric was building, the acts of vandalism and mistreatment of Jews was growing. Why didnt all the Jews leave Germany when the insanity began? Because their families and livelihoods were there. Because they believed things would get better. Because they were uncertain about their future anywhere else. Countless reasons, but many parallel the reasons people don’t leave the abuses meted out by Miscavige. Re-read what Steve said. He was not being offensive to anyone, simply drawing an analogy.

  35. The aims of Scientology have been squashed by the Church of Miscavige. They have become: “an implanted civilization run by lunatics who urge individuals to be at war with each other, and where the able cannot prosper and honest beings have no rights, and where man is systematically stopped from rising to greater heights.”

  36. D.M.’s version of Menticide forms fear that is like an illness.
    “Sociopath next door” by martha Stroud gets into D.M.’s world.

  37. Thanks Mike, and you are exactly right. The Jews did had 10 years or more before the war started while the spiders were weaving their webs. The heavy use of propaganda against enemies, harsh discipline, secret police, and much more was used in Germany and also at the Int base. I had many friends who were indeed tortured and who died there. People went back because they were coerced through lies and extortion. Conrad John wrote an excellent book about those early days of the war (I designed the cover) It’s a great read, btw.

  38. My ex wife and many others are still there. Most because of their own transgressions. A key way tyrannical dictators create blind allegiance is by ordering them to harm others in the name of help. That’s why DM was continually instigating and promoting violence as a solution. He held it up as a virtue and test of loyalty. When things weren’t going well (which was all the time) it was because we were letting others “get away with it.” Better times were just on the other side of “slamming someone’s ethics in.” My ex-wife (an MAA) stupidly took her express elevator down into hell’s anus by doing “ethics handlings” on people by order of Miscavige. Seeing the writing on the wall, I got with her privately and tipped her off in 1990 — I told her what was happening at the Int base — that the senior execs were intentionally misapplying ethics to create a dangerous environment of fear and intimidation. Instead of seeing the light, she reported me and I was shipped off to the RPF so fast my bed was still warm while I was changing into black rags in LA, 90 miles away.

    There’s a good old saying, “Woe to him who stabs his neighbor by executive order, for the handle is more deadly than the blade.”

    Well, it’s not that old really, I just made it up.

  39. Wow, thanks Martin. You set a beautiful example yourself. Regarding DM’s sadism, oh definitely. In the RTC Conference room he told us Lou was a blackbelt in karate. Then he ordered her to smash a guy in the face who was in the room. Miscavige told him if he moved a muscle, it would then become Miscavige’s turn to hit him. Lou stood in front of this horrified guy for about 60 seconds, making him sweat, then finally faked a strike to his face which made him flinch. Miscavige laughed uproariously. But he was the only one. Everyone else was appalled.

  40. one of those who see

    Dear Steve,
    Thank you for your well written answer to Tessa’s question. Most Scientologists have suffered from one or several horrendous cycles from the Church, myself included. So we have seen the insanity with our own eyes. But most of us have not been in your shoes. Meaning working at the Int Base. Therefore Tessa’s question keeps coming up. Your honesty has thoroughly answered the question, as I type this with tears in my eyes.
    We do need to communicate about these atrocities over and over in a new unit of time.
    Families have been and are being torn apart. This is happening in present time. A Father wrote on this blog yesterday that he hasn’t seen his child in 12 years!
    People have been and are still being spiritually abused. (I don’t know if people are still being beat up by Miscavige in present time. If he has checked those impulses it’s because of the brave souls that have spoken out)
    Those like Steve, Marty, Mike, Jeff and so many others who have been through this hell and keep some bit of self esteem and sanity and therefore go on to rebuild their lives are unbelievably strong.
    Old friends of mine are still at the Int base – an entire family. If one decided to leave, they would go through what Mike Rinder did – loosing all their children and spouse. these are bright, intelligent, wonderful people and they are trapped.
    My heart goes out to you, Steve for what you went through. What a testament to your courage and strength of character that you have achieved the wonderful life you have now. Thank you for what you are doing to help all of us.
    I am going to write you privately because I personally benefited from your great work many years ago.

  41. Just curious. Did anybody who was being assaulted by the Demented Midget ever try to fight back and kick the living crap out of him?

  42. Thank you very much, but really, honestly, everyone here is doing the same and playing a vital role. Huge props to Mark Bunker who did the interview — he’s gone to incredible lengths to make that video possible.

  43. one of those who see

    Let’s see, lets compare the black hole of Miscavige’s life to Mike’ life with a Princess for a 2D and beautiful children. Mike’s biggest problem is how to make time to communicate to the hundreds of true friends he has. To borrow from Charlie… Winning!
    (still I’m sure there is great loss regarding your kids still “there” – I hope that is remedied soon)
    To Miscavige: How does it feel to know that thousands of people would like to smash your head into furniture for what you did to Mike and others? No worries – we are Moving up a Little Higher and just want your evil actions stopped – for the people around you, for the world and even for you.

  44. Theo Sismanides

    Steve, a very vivid description of the… beast barking there “Roll the video” and “You two stand together”. This is interesting to hear that he is at this Tone Level, Anger or some lower harmonic of it (Controlling bodies probably), towards valuable staff members and executives.

    We have a safe place now from where we can talk and this is the Internet and our homes and this place here which is our meeting point and exchange data (and such data it is), this and other blogs and sites.

    We are many now and we have build this agreement so solidly that it cannot be undone. DM and his fits of temper are exposed every now and then. We are no longer effect of that suppression and we are handling it from a safe place.

    The point is that he is ruthless and he can survive. But as any ruthless tyrant there comes a day when the slaves revolt against him. And this day is sure to come about as the sun rises.

    “Roll the Video”, lol!

  45. dan, That is a great reference. Obviously a lot of people ask, as Tom Tobin did in 2009 when we were working on the second installment of the Truth Rundown, “Why doesn’t someone just hit him back?” I asked Tom “Do you love your wife?” He said yes. I said, “Imagine if this morning when you left the house that will be last time you ever see her face or talk to her for the rest of your life?” Still feel like hitting Miscavige? Now add to the fact that you will also be banned from the bridge for the rest of your life, and excommunicated so you will literally be instantly friendless and penniless with no source of income. And if you actually hurt Miscavige perhaps by a lucky strike, he’s have 20 or 30 “witnesses” provide affidavits to police stating that you simply went berserk and attacked without provocation. So it will be your word against 30. And you will be convicted for a felony and sent to jail. Then you’ll be a felon on top of everything else. Why didn’t someone just hit Adolf Hitler? Or Al Capone? Because once a true sociopath get enough power, the penalties for doing so are incredibly severe. When I left, the choice was either leave or (likely) wind up in prison because I’d already told Miscavige, through Claire Headley, Dir Correction RTC, that if he ever touched me I would unleash on him — meaning do my best to kill him, literally. I let this come up in a Cramming session after he rejected some script and let her pull it as a “withhold” because I had already seen that anything I said as a withhold went straight to him. He was trying to induct me into his beat-down club and I wasn’t going to go. Period.

    In the incident I related on the video, DM wasn’t even mad at Mike. He was mad at me because I was the scriptwriter and I had stopped trying to cooperate with him. He attacked Mike to show me what he wanted to do to me. It was the second time he’d done that. The first time, he confronted me then attacked Marc Yager instead. I decided there wasn’t going to be a third time.

  46. Here is an earlier similar to COB!

  47. I agree. That’s why I included this quotation from the great Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. at the top of every page on “A time comes when silence is betrayal.” Here’s the rest of the quote: “Men do not easily assume the task of opposing their government’s policy, especially in time of war. We must speak with all the humility that is appropriate to our limited vision, but we must speak. For we are deeply in need of a new way beyond the darkness so close around us… We are called upon to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for the victims of our nation, for those it calls enemy, for no document from human hands can make these humans any less our brothers.”

  48. I ask this question, because it blows my mind that we (Scientlogists) can read LRH policy and not connect it to the real world.
    Dm pretty much seems to have violated every LRH policy and so many people just reasonably agreed.

  49. Incredible Tom — and so is your new book by the way, with a foreword by the great Haydn James, no less. It is nearly impossible to put down. Factually, with every new day Manwife Miscavige is learning — as Marty put into his now famous email address “how does it feel” — a painful lesson about the modern fighting strategy called “ground and pound.”

  50. Anon, on your side

    All it would take is one criminal charge of assault and battery, or one civil lawsuit for same, against DM. A clever attorney could argue the battered spouse-type of argument to try to get past any statute of limitations problems.

  51. Tunedal, Thoughtful: thank you for your respective reactions. I appreciate. I can see both your points of view. Personally I would not go so far as to compare it with the situation of the Yewish people in the Nazi period, although there are some similar points. But for me, the Holocaust was and will be always something unique in its horror. In my country we remember it every year.
    I still think the situation here in Scientology has something to do with Scientology itself. Mr Rathbun has written about the abuse of the overt/withhold tech, the abuse of the Confessionals and the general misuse of justice. (Didn’t Hubbard say himself that people could not be trusted with Justice? That nearly all Knowledge Reports were incorrect?)

    I think the key word is ‘guilt’, feelings of guilt. When people are constantly confronted with ‘their O/W’s’, be they real or imaginary, in the form of doing the conditions (Danger), or all kinds of security checks and enforced confessionals (in session or groupwise), people can become convinced that they are ‘bad’, or that they are committing O/W’s all the time. They are made ‘wrong’ all the time. Just like in the Catholic Church where it is said in mass “Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa”.
    And this is very dangerous. Because ‘guilt’ decreases our feeling of responsibilty. Responsibility is being capable to face something or look somebody in the eye. And that becomes impossible when one is burdened with guilt. Then one is not capable of evaluating correctly a situation and finding a suitable answer. Guilt puts one out of present time and into the past. Also: feelings of guilt can be used as service facs: it helps one to stay in the past and gives a feeling of security, because then one needs not face reality. It is of course a false protection of the self.

    The moment I myself got one confessional too many, that was the last time I was audited. I left, never to return. Intuitively I knew something was very wrong. And me too, I had all kinds of ties (family, profession, friends). But I had to get out – no matter how. And in the end things worked out.

  52. So true, Steve!

  53. martyrathbun09

    Added to end of post:
    Learn more about Steve Hall at his website,

  54. Been there, seen that.

    And then he brought in Serena McElveen as one of his “Communicators/Assistants/Liaisons/Flunkies” and ran the same routine with her. “She is a black belt in karate and will break your arm if I tell her to” [turns to Serena] “You’re just itching to bust some bones on this SP arent you Serena?” “Yes, Sir, can’t wait.”

  55. Steve wrote –

    “The way I was trapped is the same way the Jews were trapped in Nazi Germany, is the same way countless others are trapped around these kinds of manipulative, malignant, ultra toxic, genocidal personalities.”

    I think you are missing a very important element in this equation: It isn’t just one person doing the ordering – everyone else is also complying with those orders.

    Any fanatic with an ideology behind him – any ideology such as Nazism, Communism, Christianity, Buddhism or Scientology – uses that ideology to test the “loyalty” and the “purity” of each group member – all for the glory and expansion of the ideology.

    The problems with Scientology in the Sea Org are of the same character as the problems with Nazism in Germany: the group members have adopted an ideology which does their thinking for them.

    Most earnestly believed that by putting up with David Miscavige – and by carrying out his orders – they were creating the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics, and they thought they were doing it for the good of the Scientology Religion.

    This is the tragic, but human, mistake which comes from adopting an ideology and letting it do your thinking for you. It isn’t just one person like Adolph Hitler or David Miscavige. It is also everyone else around him who has adopted the ideology selflessly and are following its orders instead of thinking for themselves.

  56. Anon, on your side

    ” It takes a lot to wake up from the shock and fight back/get out.”. Different cult, same 100 hour, unpaid, work weeks, no days off, forced abortions, constant abuse.. I know what it is like and I know you are all very courageous. In day to day life it is easy to forget how much strength it took for you to leave, but you should remind yourself, always. Your critics don’t understand how much courage it takes to not only leave but to continue practicing Scientology as independents. Amazing courage.

  57. Mike, One day I asked Victor Barram the same question and he said that business was good again. Hitler had taken Germany out of the Depression while the rest of the world was still wallowing in it by simply issuing money and spending it into the economy–employment dropped almost overnight and the Autobahn got built. (A he got the rest of the world out of it by invading Poland, I might add). People, Victor told me, never thought it would play out as it eventually did. Things were looking up.
    Hitler’s original plan was to ship all the Jews (and, I presume, the gypsies and homosexuals) to Madagascar, just get them out of Europe. Really. He had them pushed into ghettos for easy picking when the time came to relocate them but the war effort stalled, thanks to the Russians at Stalingrad, and things got really nasty after that. A psycho’s plans never come to fruition (that’s for you, Dave) but German Jews, being rational beings, could not think things would go downhill as far as they did. Not to compare DM to Hitler, but in both cases, a logical person finds it impossible to understand the illogic behind a psycho’s actions. If you try to understand it long enough you become a little nutty yourself. The thing to realize is that the insanity IS, and don’t try to understand further. Just act to minimize its effects in your sphere. Of course, I preach to the choir here. Just intended to report that someone who did get out before the curtain fell (Victor’s family left when he was about 12 or 13) supported what you said above.

  58. After following these events for many years now, I am still continually shocked when hearing about people being treated like a piece of shit. For everyone having suffered through these atrocities and now posting on this blog, I am inspired by your fortitude.

    And the world is watching.

  59. Spooky, the similar deep creases in their cheeks and the same kind of hairline (like a bad toupee). Both were fixated on speeches and audio-visual as the tool of propaganda. In the first video, Goebbel’s arm is R/Sing.

  60. It is people like you who inspire us.

  61. What’s your thought when you see a sign: “DANGER: HIGH VOLTAGE!” ?

    Maybe: “Is this an accurate depiction of the technology of how to produce energy? I’ll have a look!
    Or more like: “This is dangerous and life-threatening. Keep out!”?

  62. Yes. This is what I am talking about. Each individual in that crowd is letting an ideology – in this case Nazism – think and feel for them.

    Not one person is thinking and feeling for themselves.

  63. Tragic consolation prize: few of the willing attack dogs ever wake up… most go the route of hopelessly stupid Brook Shackleton who died of a brain tumor or Lisa Lironess (aka Louanne) who will continue to defend DM until her own bitter end.

  64. Well, he made a reference to “genocidal personalities” in the quote above. Are they actually committing genocide at the Int Base? Are there ovens, gassed showers or other mass extermination facilities at the Int Base?

    As I understand it, what is occurring at the Int Base is that a single madman is acting unrestrained and no local law enforcement is ever called when abuses occur due to the level of brainwashing and mind control that exists. David Miscavige is sort of like a Jim Jones, but hasn’t (yet) committed mass murder/suicide. And so the abuse goes on and on, until various individuals can’t take it anymore and “blow”. Even if Miscavige didn’t exist, the people there would still have a fear of leaving; there would be a fear of the unknown and a fear of the probable disconnection. While there may be some parallels between leaving a cult and leaving Nazi Germany, a cult is fundamentally different than the persecution of entire religion/ethnic group and the genocidal and systematic murder of members of that religion/ethnic group.

  65. “You’ve gone far and beyond the call of duty to get the truth out and to help other people. For that I will always respect you and be forever grateful!!”

    +100 for Marty, Steve & Mike

  66. >> I had many friends who were indeed tortured and who died there.

    Who are they? I never heard this before. Tortured and died at the Int Base???

    You have a legal and ethical responsibility to name names and report this to law enforcement. This is no statute of limitations for murder.

  67. Many people do not fully participate even in their own lives. They are instead carried along by the current. That becomes tragic when the current becomes malignant. In a policy letter called “The Supreme Test” LRH commented that most people rely on the social structure to prop them up. It took me years to fully wake up — but when I did, I became more aware than I had ever been. Now I am the captain of my own ship, not only aware, but with the courage and easy strength to do something about it and laugh along the way.

  68. martyrathbun09

    Helpful advice: don’t take people so literally.

  69. Those who left the Int base I believe have demonstrated immeasurable courage … they have played out the full meaning, to me, of “to be or not to be, that is the question.

    Whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing end them?”

    Those who left Int were leaving KNOWING that in essence they were committing suicide (metaphorically of course) — they were definitely stepping into a completely unknown world, without money, friends, family and scorned by those who remained or were connected.

    Most of humanity lives more fearful of the unknown than fearful of the untenable existence in front of himself. Like someone suffering from alzheimers who still has a bit of memory and mind, who plans to take his life before it gets too bad – making plans, getting pills etc (like the father-in-law of a former Chief MAA at Flag — very wealthy man) — but alas, when the time came for his planned suicide he forgot. Not a joke – leaving his daughter (former Pers Pro) having to ensure he was cared for and there went ALL the money …

    Those who remain at Int do so as Steve mentioned because of their own transgression AND I contend because up to the point when THEY CANNOT escape — living at Int “works for them”

    Heber, Steve’s wife, Mike’s wife and all the others still there UP TO a certain point gained more from being at int than leaving. (prestige, power, security, 3 squares etc)

    It’s what happens all across the world and is called co-depency in psychology … untenable situations working for the benefit, no matter how oblique to an outsider, of those still involved.

    Trying to figure out how this might be called or viewed in scientology I’m thinking perhaps it’s the core of “mutual out ruds” —

    I believe Marty, Mike, Amy, Steve, Matt, Jeff, Karen and all others who left had tremendous courage knowing what lay ahead. And with that kind of demonstrable courage it is absolutely no mystery to me why they are successful in their lives today.

    L’Chaim (to life)


  70. So very true.

    As Henry David Thoreau said “Most men lead lives of quiet desperation. What is called resignation is confirmed desperation …”

    I am still waking up but it gets easier every day to stay as awake as I was yesterday and not start back sliding.


  71. My educated guess is that scilonschools knows the answer, and s/he is asking “on behalf of other readers”; s/he is showing to the uninformed readers the big difference between Co$ and LRH’s Scn.

    Good quote scilonschools!

  72. Mike, a few months back Marty did a cryptic piece on you “Warrior, Friend and Gentleman” which first piqued my interest (from afar) as I do not know you. But reading your posts over time (especially with regard to Hy Levy) and perhaps reading between the lines (you being a target of PI s), I am guessing that there is a big help flow from you to others. It is gratifying to know that there is a reversal of the RCS flows. It does something to the “cause” point for all of us. So “thank you” from this stranger (me). You mentioned once that you might be tempted to write up your story. Speaking for myself at least, I would love to hear it – if that temptation should ever pass your way again.

  73. Steve, your video interview in the Truth Rundown gave me a lot of certainty that I was right and there was something very wrong with the Church.
    During your video as I was playing it for someone I said “I know when someone is telling the truth”. I mean, particularly in a long interview like that I have certainty that I can see if someone is telling the truth. I could tell all of you were just laying it all out there.
    I respect and appreciate that. I can imagine it was a bit scary as David Miscavige is psychotic, so I appreciate you guys having the integrity and courage to do what you have done.

  74. Steve thank you so much for this heads up — I just bought a kindle edition and bought a paperback edition which I am having sent directly to Pat. A Vietnam Vet friend of ours …

    Am wondering if Tom including the salute by the late great Jimmy Stewart who was grand marshall of the Hollywood Christmas Parade or perhaps a Veteran’s Day parade … who saw Tom and a couple other SO members in front of the Hollywood Guarantee Building, with their ribbons and Tom with his Silver Star … Jimmy Stewart stopped his driver, saluted directly to Tom and carried on.

    Now — THAT is ethics presence 🙂


  75. Steve,
    I see the predicament that you and others were in. It baffles and frustrates me that LRH policy did not prevent this situation from ever coming about.

  76. Interesting posit Christine. Lee Gerdes in Scottsdale, Arizona, has worked
    on brainwaves and it looks like your assumption is validated by Lee’s
    research. He has even been able to spot a severe trauma in the uterus
    after the first session’s readout of the brainwaves of a child (later confirmed
    by the mother). He also found that people who meditate have more “balanced” waives than people who do not. He also found that the brain
    keeps adjusting itself after the initial first 10 treatments. Just like FASE
    found with the purif how the body keeps releasing toxins after the purif
    is completed in a more accelerated way than a person who has not done
    the purif. Gene Denk used to tell me how the body has such an infinite
    way of handling illnesses without medicine and other remedies. Of course
    a kickstart to the body will get spirit going. (book: “The making of a surgeon”)

  77. And this is one of many reasons I consider Steve Hall to be a good friend.

  78. Complaint indeed, Mike it looks like you have the grounds for a civil suit and you have a witness. In a civil suit, the burden of proof is much lighter.

  79. Thanks Dan.

    I think that guy was really only trying to stir shit. He doesn’t care about the point being made or seeking to understand. He is either an agent provocateur or someone who should spend his time writing elsewhere. There are no doubt forums dedicated to ensuring nobody “steals” the holocaust or something. There are sites for everything these days, he just seems to have landed on the wrong one.

  80. I think you mistakenly came to the wrong blog — you are looking for the one where people jealously protect the Nazi Germany and the holocaust from anyone trying to “hijack” it by using it in the same breath as any other subject. I think you should stop being so literal — he was trying to draw an analogy to make it understandable. The vast majority of people understood and it made the concept he was trying to communicate more understandable. You took offense and tried to put words in his mouth to call him out for saying something that in your estimation is incorrect. You havent helped clarify anything or lead anyone to a better understanding of what Steve was communicating.

  81. Thanks for your kind words Wendy. A lot of “my story” has already been covered here and in the media.

  82. Seconded.

  83. Exactly my experience. There wasn’t a shred of doubt Steve and Marty et al were telling the truth in the SP Times videos. I did a bit of cross-checking and “due diligence” but it was hardly necessary. It was a seminal moment in so many ways. I had the Freedumb magazine next to me with its twisted lies and propoganda, and Steve on the laptop, laying it all out what really went down, cool, collected and factual. It really came down to who was actually applying Scientology; how can the OSA bots, with their lies and denials, claim to be Scientologists when they can’t as-is anything. When you deal in lies, what do you get? More lies, blackness, nothing good that’s for sure. I realised after talking to the DSA St Hill that they knew, basically, that the thrust of the claims was true, yet they lie to order anyway! And made me, and plenty others, wrong for actually applying a little basic Scientology to the situation! Not even advanced stuff – just Tone Scale, SOS data. Basic stuff. Laughable. I can’t remember how many times I had Graeme Wilson – OSA UK – on the phone before I woke up, trying to sell me The Basics – the very data they are utterly incapable of applying in real life!

  84. I’m so sorry. I’m so thankful I didn’t get in so deep. I feel so much empathy for you and others who’ve gone through this, those good people who were simply dedicated to making our world a better place. I thank you for that well-meaning dedication. Soon, I hope, sociopath David Miscavige won’t have the last word, and he’ll finally end up where he belongs, prison.

  85. If I was a Christian I would pray for those in the vicinity of Miscavige.

  86. Very important admission or set of statements by LRH.

    What I lived, in my 27 years of the Sea Org (1975-2003), were repeat instances of people who claimed LRH himself did some pretty harsh ethics gradients on them personally.

    I recall one woman “claim” that LRH screamed and so thoroughly ruined her reputation, when she loved LRH and wanted only to do well, that she was frankly so PTSD from it, it ruined her later Sea Org career. Janice Kennedy, she was devastated when LRH blew his stack at her, and she just crashed as a being. To LRH’s credit, in the ESTO series he says he’s made mistakes blasting people, and some of the ESTO tech is designed for the ESTO to go patch up the people who get blasted by execs, and who crash case wise from the blastings. (LRH publicly in his writings, ESTO Tapes at least, had humility to admit he’s caused this bad effect on people, and I being a literal perfectionist hoping that LRH covered ALL of his own mistakes, I took ESTO tech for patching up blasted subordinates as the tech to try patch up the people blasted and devastated by their seniors who unloaded on them.)

    There’s ample stories of LRH unloading on people, and they have to be faced, these stories I take as real, namely Kima Douglas’ story about LRH blasting and “throttling” (grabbing by the collar and pressing the person against the bulkhead, and in Mike Douglas’ case, Mike was lifted slightly off the ground when LRH did this to Mike, per Kima who I believe, she had no reason to lie about her experiences with LRH, and I highly highly recommend people Google “Kima Douglas” and read her experiences up close with LRH).

    LRH is a whole more compassionate person, on the whole, than Miscavige, that is such a given.

    LRH’s attitude in wishing well for staff, just read the LRH ED blue volumes, and see LRH’s style.

    But LRH could be devastating to people, and some people did NOT recover from what they felt were injustices overall, by how LRH blew his stack at them.

    So honestly, PLEASE, if people wish to truly be Scientologists, and admit the facts on the ground, there needs to be some honest exposure to the people who loved LRH, and who felt devastated by LRH’s getting upset with them.

    It’s a part of Scientology history, and I recommend some surfing for

    “Kima Douglas”
    “Otto Roos”

    (if you are ex Sea Org, go onto the XSO chat site, “CSW” to Mick Wenlock and read Cathy Cariotaki’s stories admitting the “Kali” exercise which she as Qual Sec on the Apollo had been ordered to implement, and read ALL of Janis Grady’s history and frank answers about LRH there on the XSO chat site.)

    “John Aczel” (I’ve written extensively, and on the spitting on John Aczel and Roger Barnes incident, there’s plenty of posting by people who were there, and both I and Janis Grady remember clearly the LRH phrase from a 1982 despatch answer from LRH, where both Janis and I thought for sure LRH was being figurative, but others, like Larry (Denise) Brennan believed that at that time, the people receiving that despatch thought LRH meant for his comment, “….and if you see WDC SMI, spit on him for me….”, Denise Brennan thought that that LRH comment meant literally to do what DM did do, which is spit and punch both John Aczel and Roger Barnes.

    The history of how the macho violence has remained off and on, and increasingly in the last 10 years, a part of upper elite Sea Org ranks, deserves a full complete context.

    The context includes LRH’s unfortunate resorting to some overly emphatic behavior (punching and kicking at Otto Roos, throttling Mike Douglas, ordering and watching as a 50 year old Sea Org father pushed a pea or peanut around on the Apollo’s wooden deck with his nose and his nose eventually bleeding and his wife and two daughters who were messengers watching and crying at this event while LRH apparently was unaware and was either chuckling or laughing which is what messengers who were standing next to him tell today).

    This in an incomplete snippet of history, and someday I hope to complete the history of violence in the Sea Org, if no one else does.

    LRH had a hand in it, to a limited degree, and to his credit, with at least the ESTO tech he ordered somewhat of a handling.

    But this whole violence and Sea Org officers being granted no penalty for yelling, has opened the door to DM. (LRH’s despatch traffic to Bill Franks in 1979 was supportive of Bill’s tough no nonsense Sea Org officer beingness, even after Bill’s known years of pretty tough harsh treatment of some male staff which numerous ex staff have told, including even me; but Bill was just following Alex Sibersky’s lead, and Kerry Gleason followed both Alex’s and Bill’s lead, it was a whole “My Three Sons” (Alex, Bill, Kerry) who immediately preceded and surely was known to young DM (and I speculate that Norman Starkey has told hundreds of Apollo LRH stories to DM, who’s soaked up ALL of the tough guy LRH stories to DM’s mind’s justification).

    DM was NOT ever really taken to task for his decades of bad overly violent temper tantrum behaviors, never countered, never put in his place by anyone.

    There are two key LRH references for putting DM in his place is two-fold: 1959 tape lecture “Individuation” and the “Corrupt Activities” HCO PL of the early 1980s. I listened to “Individuation” multiple times, and especially since I speculated that it was the KEY reference to how DM’s been allowed to get away with his temper tantrums and battery all through the years.

    But I think a bigger problem is LRH’s 1978-79-80 shift to TWTH was cut short by the court decisions that found MSH and the others guilty, but particularly MSH being found guilty and given the greatest sentence, LRH took it personally, and his response in the 1980s “Justice” policy is scathing and frankly bonkers.

    TWTH was derailed, and in my view, the Sea Org toughness bullshit is just such a display of a crashing misunderstood of what society needs from a religion. It’s “out religious beingness” and LRH didn’t give a damn, and it’s just something that society is NOT going to buy the Scientology brand of Sea Org style “relligion.”

    My analysis point for Scientology, is TWTH. DO TWTH for two decades, reform the movement from top to bottom, using TWTH, period, and DROP OSA, do a unprecedented full Amnesty, or cancel all SP declares, and don’t declare people.

    DM should abdicate, let Exec Strata become a think tank, and whittle away at ALL of the policy excesses that cause the movement it’s problems.

    LRH’s macho Sea Org toughness and mostly hidden smaller time violence of his own (against Roos, against Mike Douglas), LRH’s violence has to be faced.

    It’s part of why we have the group Int Base violence going on, and that includes “Knowledge Reports” PL which includes the “black eye” that the out ethics staff who is sticking pins in his fellow staff, is supposed to receive if that group is in ethics. So LRH’s figurative statements urging “black eyes” is there, to whomever is zealous enough to take LRH literally, and whoever is that sociopathic or if one is pushed to do this type of violence. (Stanley Milgram experiment must be googled and read to understand why people will do violence if an authority orders them to do violence to their fellow human beings.)

    LRH is the one who wrote the policies of the mid to late 1960s, with some pretty harsh “heavy ethics” concepts. LRH’s late 1960s “SP Acts” and “High Crimes” just kept getting added to, all the way up to the Key to Life penalties, and even into the 1980s. LRH’s way of labeling what the outer boundaries of what is proper behavior in Scientology, it’s LRH’s lineup of “SP Acts” and “High Crimes” which LRH never softened (other than TWTH, but TWTH got shelved, I speculate, since MSH was made a head on a pike by the US Justice Dept and LRH was driven back into super irrate pissed off at society mode).

    The reasons Scientologists get a bad rep does lead to LRH, and the history of Sea Org violence precedes DM.

    Chuck Beatty
    ex Sea Org (1975-2003)

  87. On the topic of Miscavige’s karmic future……….I am reading “The Essential Nostradamus” by Richard Smoley, and although no Nostradamus scholar has ever attributed anything that Nostradamus wrote / predicted to a Scientology figure, the following quatrain jumped out at me (I quote this at the risk of being boo’ed off the blog for reading such stuff, but bear with me even if for entertainment’s sake.)

    Century VI quatrain 93:

    “Greedy prelate, fooled by ambition,
    There will be nothing that he will come to think too much:
    He and his messengers well entrapped,
    To see everything reversed, so he will cut wood.”

    My postulate is that it is about Miscavige and his messengers, and that “so he will cut wood” is what is done on the RPFs RPF! (But perhaps I read it too literally!)

    Steve, Mike, Marty and everyone who has had the courage and intelligence to unravel what was happening on the inside and to get out and tell the truth – I add my gratitude to those who have expressed it before. If it is true that Scientology is a route out (which I do believe) then Miscavige’s crimes go far beyond his heavy handed rage. If there is somehing worse than physical injury and death – it is spiritual entrapment.

    The Sea Org recruits people who have the best of intentions (there would be no other reason to join!), public recognise this, Sea Org members recognise this in each other, and this is what makes up the “sheep’s clothing” for a cunning wolf. Knowing the truth has immeasurable value. Thank you! I also appeciate the courage it took for you to get out – no friends, no allies, no terminals, no home, no car, no money, no job, no credit, no work history, no college degree, no trade qualifications……. Its a lot to contend with when you have been spirtually, mentally, emotionally and physically brutalised for decades and have been pushed down the the tone scale ( I doubt anyone is bouncing around at “cheerful” when they escape). Some people have asked “Why did you stay?” “Why didn’t you punch out DM’s lights?”. Walk a mile in these shoes and you will know. I had the smallest taste of it in Joburg 20 years ago. That’s all I need to experience to know that the Sea Org veterans who turned Independent, are heroes.

  88. My opinion is that Scn is a “victim of its own success”: a powerful technology which, rightly used gives fast good results, but misused may give fast bad results. This is the message of scilonschools’ quote.

  89. morelivesthanacat

    For the sake of accuracy, the fences were up by 1982 for sure. As was the “Eagle” guard position on the mountain and the original guard booth. Believe me, I know. Jackson and some others (who have already posted here) could confirm.

    Not trying to be a party pooper or “complain about punctuation”, but as this forum is serving in large part as a historical record, it should be known when this “conditioning” all started.

    And its already been made clear what Miscavige was up to in that period. For one, David Mayo (who audited LRH back to health in 1978) was taken out then along with the CMO leadership (appointed by LRH) while Miscavige was acting as the sole int base conduit to LRH via Pat Broeker.

    The entire south side was fenced in by 82 along the flood berm not far from the original road that skirted the south side buildings. The North side was already fully enclosed, pretty much as it is today.

    We presumed this was all for LRH security–or perhaps I should say future LRH security, as he wasn’t there at the time. Last time he stepped foot on the property was 1979 when he commuted in over a 3 month period for the KTL and LOC picture book shoots and Pro TRs Film clay table update which came out of the LOC materials or research.

    It was by around 1989, as Steve says, that the work began on the final perimeter fence that extended considerably further back to the San Jacinto River, complete with motion sensors every 50′, flood lights and “ultra barrier” (razor wire). And the wood guard booth (“dog house” as it was called) was replaced with a concrete one with bullet proof glass with iron gates replacing the wooden drop-down barrier. All in perfect accord with the beautiful new 50 million dollar south side renovation and landscaping project which pretty much had everyone distracted from the 250 million dollar fence project that a few security guys were working on.

    Might have a few details wrong. Jackson, help me out.

  90. Mentioning DM’s unhandled FPRD or Truth Rundown Case, I’ll agree, at least in that LRH ordered the top Int Base execs to be the first receive the FPRD, as far as I recall of his 1982 “security check for false purposes” advices.

    I witnessed the 1983 “red coats” evolution at the Int Base, and saw the focus on the top execs getting their FPRD first.

    To me, if LRH wrote that the top execs should get it first, I’ve ever since that time, 1983, felt that these LRH orders totally alligned with LRH’s 1959 “Individuation” tape lecture (a lecture that was put on the ED and CO Full Hat checksheets, a message to CO’s and ED’s that they must understand that when they feel like blowing, that LRH says that their nearest top staff SHOULD sec check them, and NOT with any totalitarian flare, but out of care and ensuring the EDs and COs don’t blow!)

    The whole air and atomosphere of “Individuation” 1959 lecture, how to handle the ED who is going off the rails, and the 1982 FPRD traffic from LRH, align exactly to your comments on DM.

    But likely, DM’s brute underlying personality (or his childish terrified squirming crying weeping little boy beingness that Jesse Pirnce tells in Jesse’s posting on DM’s squirming crying about the Sec Check that Jesse gave to DM, ordered by LRH), so much other tiny details of history, and when Jesse’s book comes out, I hope people can see through to details like this.

    Good points Mike! LRH was always thinking with his own tech, and anyone, Dan Koon, Russ Williams, anyone who’s done the “ALLSIR” searches, and really took it seriously to read the WHOLE long trails of related subjects which are required as part of RTRC submissions (I didn’t do any, but I took the Full Hat’s materials for RTRC Compiler seriously), will see the whole long train of thought.

    How DM ought to have been handled, from Jesse’s sec check ordered by LRH, and Jesse’s story how Pat and DM dodged their transgressions being reported to LRH, out of their fear they’d be dumped by LRH (likely the case), is all important history details.

    I look forward to Jesse’s book.


  91. Somewhat off topic, though not entirely, as the “Ideal Org” program is part of Miscavige’s smoke and mirrors that keep the sheeple believing he is the second coming of L. Ron Hubbard (but smarter).

    An email just sent out by one of those enthusiastic clubbed seals gives a little peak into the reality of Miscavige’s “big push for planetary clearing”.

    This email concerns the Denver “Ideal” Org. Miscavige jetted in for the Grand Opening on 16 June and the church told the media they moved into the 70,000 sq ft building because of the “massive expansion” they had been experiencing.

    This is what they are telling one another in Denver:

    For those of you who missed the EDs’ briefing, the org has gotten out 59,000 pieces of promo since going Ideal – 38 1st Service Starts, Highest Ever hours on the Purif (13 people in the box currently) and they held a Dianetics Fiesta in Spanish!

    OMG! They are averaging 3.8 First Service Starts a WEEK!!! They have sent out 5,900 promo pieces a week have have 13 people in the Purif. There is NO mention (of course) of Course Completions or Grade Chart Completions or “normal” WDAH in the chair. No mention of Clears Made or Auditors Made. No, they did a “Dianetics Fiesta in Spanish”. And these were the memorable highlights of the expansion since ‘going ideal.” Wow, if that’s “ideal” that’s pretty sad.

    And BTW, this is the org they proudly announce in their video on that serves Colorado, Montana, Wyoming, Nebraska, Kansas and Oklahoma. That’s 15 million people.

    For $10 million dollars plus, I would say these “results” are pretty comprehensive proof that the “Ideal Org” strategy is a bust (except for raising cash….)

  92. Thanks Tango 23, I will check out that book!

  93. Where there is great courage, there is great love.

  94. Dan,

    I noticed this policy violation years too late.

    I posted several years ago about this exact reference, like in 2007 or 2008 on other chat sites.

    And the problem unfortunately comes back to LRH.

    I have been totally practically obsessed with how could LRH seemingly say one truly highly principled and inspirational and supremely compassionate and caring thing, and then say another.

    Ken Urquhart, to me, has most grappled with this aspect of LRH.

    To me, the policy you quote is from 1965.

    1982 came “Knowledge Reports”

    1982 came the despatch to CO CMO Int (Marc Yager) with the comment “….and if you see WDC SMI, spit on him for me…..” (which I took totally literally.

    But the 1982 Knowledge Reports, and the private CO CMOI despatch with the WDC SMI (then John Aczel, with Roger Barnes then CO SMI, and Barnes and Aczel both receieved punchings and spittings on them both).

    LRH underlying policy, which we all know, is that the latest policy take more precedence.

    I don’t think LRH, would wish “us” to implement his policy like mad zealots like Int Base violence is being done these last 10 years, but the policy and LRH final years’ writings have lended towards DM’s brute personality to use the LRH final years’ comments and DM takes those comments literally.

    That, I feel, is the partial story, but important details to whoever is going to do the authoritative “History of Scientology Movement Violence” story.

    Plus my other snippets of history in my other comments in this thread.

    I rather think the best of LRH, but LRH has said things, that allow assholes who are in Scientology, or which allow people who were NOT assholes to begin with, but who learn the beingness of bullies and assholes, to perpetrate in their irreligious zealotry on each other!

    Google Stanley Migram experiment. That has helped many of us ex Sea Org who wondered why do we stand by while RTC staff stand by and let lower down Execs slap and scream like idiots at their subordinates.

    It’s more than DM, there are some MU and frankly Stanley Milgram and Stockholm Syndrome things going on also.


  95. He was “Minister of Enlightment” (- and Propaganda).
    “ENLIGHTMENT” – grotesk! Reminds me at “doublespeak” from “1984”.
    …”This feeling of physical inferiority (Goebbels was self-conscious about his lack of height as well), his rejection by the German Army and the terms of the Treaty of Versailles lead to Goebbels becoming a very embittered man in the early 1920’s.”
    His appearance was also not Aryan at all in this Aryan-propaganda machinery. He probably had to make up with viscousness for it to prove his importance and worthiness for the fascistic regime in which among other things Aryan breed (the master race) was glorified and physical flaws were despised.

  96. Come on Eli, the holocaust in Germany did not start in one day. It took years to develop. Co$ is following the same exact steps. I do not know what happened in Int other than the published stories, but I would not be surprised if there were killings and tortur.

    Where is Shelly Miscavige?

  97. Well said Mike. Your reply was a lot nicer than mine would have been. Reading Eli Klien’s comments was like doing TR-0 Bullbaiting. I flunked.

  98. Oh my gosh, how exciting! With 3.8 service starts they’re only going to need 3.9 million years to get everyone in their area signed up for an extension course. What a fiesta this is! Clearly that’s something for the Chairman of the Bored to jet in for. Someone hand me a Carta Blanca. BTW, what is a “Dianetics fiesta”?

  99. Punishing bodies.

  100. I’ve received recent info on Buffalo “Ideal Org” that they have about 80 staff, all are moonlighting, and staff average pay is 3 dollars on a bad week, and 10 dollars on good weeks.

    The only benefit of these buildings, is they will be there, if the movement somehow reforms itself, and if people believing in future lives do come back, then Scientology buildings will be there to advertise, at least, LRH’s ideas.

    I’m hoping some freezone or Independent Scientologist gets the “history” bug, and starts compiling some history, and allows ALL Scientologists to add their writings to some history repository somewhere, but “out here” in the free world for now.

    (Even though I’m not a Scientologist, I admit the subject is likely going to continue, and I wish a reconciled and better future for whoever is left standing with the Scientology subject, in the future.)

  101. I think comparing cult abuse to the persecution of the Jews is a bit extreme, but whatever. However, I’m not wrong for thinking that mass murder/suicide DOES occur in cults (The People’s Temple, Heavens Gate, etc.). And Thoughtful had said above that he personally observed people who were tortured and died there. Is this also just a metaphor???

  102. Tom Gallagher

    As a brief reminder Mike,

    It sucks to be Miscarriage!

  103. Hi Mike,

    Was Serena Paul McElveen’s daughter?

  104. Aww, leave those poor baboons alone.


  105. Hey Steve, thanks for this. The more that is known about Mr. David Miscavige, the more pressure there is to get him to move out of town.

    Also, thanks for adding me to the Indy 500. 364 is my new favorite number! I just posted my Declaration of Independence on my blog (linked from my name here). It is time. I realized that I needed to let me friends know who I am. Glad to be among friends!

    Mark Patterson
    Class VI, OT IV
    ASHO F Class of 1985

  106. Thanks for posting this, Marty. In this interview excerpt, Steve clearly illustrates the true character of David Miscavige.

    “Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man’s character, give him power.” –Abraham Lincoln

  107. Madone! “Do you love your wife” puts it all in perspective.


  108. Scott — yes, that’s her. I’m sure she was a sweet kid at one time….

  109. Steve — I believe a “Dianetics Fiesta” is a new service introduced by COB at the Maiden Voyage this year.

    They hire a mariachi band and invite people to come listen. Once inside, the doors are locked and everyone is told that they are required to buy a Dianetics book and donate $500 (“it makes the book really valuable to them”) to the “International Hispanic Human Rights Campaign” being conducted by the IAS. When they have given their money they are let out.

    There are other “ethnic” versions of the service too, the “Dianetics Dreamtime” for the indigenous population of Australia, “Dianetics Samba” for Brazil, “Dianetics Dragon Festival” for China and so on…. The variations are endless. And they get to use the books returned from the library donation campaigns to resell.

  110. Thank you so much, Steve, for the huge work you’ve put into your informative website that’s dedicated to truth.

  111. Dayam, I had no idea we Montanan’s were being “served” by an Idle Morgue. Good to know!


  112. Great job, Mark!

    Nancy #359

  113. And Thoughtful had said above that he personally observed people who were tortured and died there.
    No, Eli Klein, he didn’t say that. Go back and read it again. As for the rest of your comment, dude you’re just not getting the point that Thoughtful was trying to make. So just leave it at that. You didn’t get it. You’re not going to get it. Move on.

  114. Eli, if you want to know more about torture, go to my website and lap up the videos on the home page of Debbie Cook’s testimony. Slaver over the account of the “Musical Chairs” incident. As far as deaths, there are plenty of examples. And around that kind of profound physical, mental, emotional and spiritual abuse, people have accidents, sicken and die like flies. For example, my friend Joe Harrison was forced to work for endless nights in David Miscavige’s 70 million dollar mansion in which 5 to 10 people work. Joe got on his motorcycle for the short ride home and forgot to put his kickstand up. He died alone within yards of the entrance to “Golden Era Productions.” Every heard the name Lisa McPherson? She lost her wits thanks to David Miscavige’s direct intervention in her counseling. Weeks later she was dead. My mentor and friend Greg Bashaw was driven into such great depression after the Church cost him his job and buried him so deeply in debt he could see no way out. He was abruptly abandoned by the Church and in response he killed himself. Happy yet? How much death do you need to be satisfied?

    When you ask such profoundly stupid questions, you do a disservice to the memory of the many who DID die within David Miscavige’s sphere of influence. There are hundreds of other examples. Marty gave you some helpful advice. You didn’t take it.

  115. Well, so much for “hat, don’t hit”.

    Did the little maniac actually point out what on the video drove him berserk?

  116. Hi Chuck, Thanks for these comments and the Stockholm Syndrome is definitely a part of what keeps people trapped. I suspect however is that it is their own overts which makes the Stockholm Syndrome really bite. On another note, as for Ideal Morgue buildings, my view is that no building could ever do justice to LRH’s ideas because it’s ultimately worthless MEST (matter, energy, space and time, i.e. the physical universe). The only real advertisement for LRH’s ideas would be a live Scientologist in affinity with the world. Short of that, Casablanca is a 1,000 times better advertisement of LRH’s ideas than all the ideal orgs put together since there are two real auditors within those walls.

  117. Now I know who is feeding Miscavige (junior) with ideas.


  118. Mark, a hearty welcome to you! And thanks for helping to keep real Scientology working and for having the courage to draw a line in the sand.

  119. Grasshopper/Mark – WELCOME!! I have enjoyed your postings. I very much enjoyed your write-up on your blog. You didn’t give the link so here it is for everyone else:

    I always like it when more trained and able beings enter into the arena of the Independent Scientologist field. Wherever you live I hope you deliver real standard auditing – the world is in need of some help.

    Yes, you are and have been among friends.

  120. Chad Braunersrither

    Well said Chuck.

  121. So to really answer your question, you have to take this situation out of Scientology. It really has nothing to do with Scientology. It has everything to do with a sociopath.
    Steve, I’m really in tears here over your tremendous loss. Getting beat on is nothing in comparison.
    No, that had absolutely NOTHING to do with Scientology.
    I’m grateful for your sharing the truth of the matter.

  122. Hey Mark!

    Good to know you! I’ve always enjoyed your posts and demonstrated wisdom.

    Glad to have you out and about!

  123. Yeah Steve, your house was freakin’ gorgeous! I just kept admiring your fireplace and the colors and thinking of how I could accomplish that look at my house! LOL I was listening to what you were saying, too. I just love the asthetics of your place so much! Kudos to your wife as well. And knowing of your future arrival – damn man, y’all are rockin it in the free world!

  124. Thanks Mike,

    I heard that her dad died from Sea Org under Miscavige poisoning.

  125. You guys are truly funny! 🙂

    Humor is a wonderful weapon.

  126. …he’s a bonafide fucking psycho!

  127. Anyone who has spent any time with a sociopath (and I have) will tell you they all sing from the same song book. Miscavige sounds like a textbook case and like many of them, he cleverly flies beneath the radar. However, one day he will come unstuck in a big way. That you can count on.

    People stay around sociopaths for all sorts of reasons. Fear, hope for better days, denial, desperation, confusion etc. To accept that you have to walk or run away from somewhere or something you have invested years of your life in is incredibly painful. To do so leaving loved ones behind is another layer of complication. Miscavage is clearly a monster – how could so many people, the world over, have it so wrong. It is hard for a thinking, feeling human beings to accept that there are some people who have no empathy or conscience for what they do. However, as soon as you accept that people like this do exist in every walk of life it becomes much easier to understand.

    Everyone who hasn’t read Martha Stout’s The Sociopath Next Door should do so – it will put Miscavage into perspective. As for those who still follow him? It takes time to see through the game. Unfortunately there will be many who will blindly keep following him. Stanley Milgram taught us about obedience. ‘At least six out of ten people will blindly obey a present, official-looking authority to the bitter end.’

    The good news is that having social support makes people somewhat more likely to challenge authority. So keep spreading the facts. Other people deserve to be warned about Miscavige far more than he deserves to have you keep his secrets. (i.e. – EXPOSURE WORKS!) People who know the truth about him and who have been victims of his abuses or fraud owe it others to save them from experiencing the same inhumane treatment. Sometimes when we are badly abused (emotionally, physically, financially…)the only way we can survive the horror is to try and minimise what has happened to us. It is a survival technique. However, at some point we need to accept the horror and shine the light on the actions of a person who has abused many, many people. The hardest lesson I ever had to learn is that it is a person’s actions that tell us most about their character. And if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, walks like a duck then…..

  128. martyrathbun09

    I wouldn’t have approved this post as moderator. It is a multi page defense of David Miscavige. It is creepy quite frankly – almost like Nazi sympathizer material. Chuck is entitled to his views and I give him a wide berth here. But, this long diversion is worse than a diversion. It is a covert nullification of Steve Hall and Mike Rinder.

  129. Incredulously, although 3 books gave detailed accounts of Miscavige beatings, and dozens of Sea Org member reported the beatings, from various continents, Miscavige attempted to dupe St. Pete Times, 9now called Tampa Bay Times
    ~On the TRUTH Rundown page
    Church of Scientology’s response

    In response to the allegations of the four defectors,spokesmen for the Church of Scientology vehemently deny that church leader David Miscavige ever hit anybody, not even a single time. ….. The church says the defectors were all demoted, washouts who left the church and now are bent on revenge. Also, , the church says it has enjoyed a “renaissance” of growth since the defectors left, in improvements to the religious texts and in the opening new churches, thanks to the hands-on leadership of Miscavige. .
    😳 😳 😳 😳

    😳 😳 😳 😳 😳 😳

  130. one of those who see

    Congratulations Mark! I am jealous. I still need to stay under the radar, still expanding comm lines though. It must feel great to be in complete freedom. Hope I can follow your lead sooner rather than later. Well done!!

  131. Totally agreed, Marty. Get a blog, Chuck.

  132. Of course not. He never does that. You are expected to STOP PRETENDING YOU DON’T KNOW because YOU DO KNOW and you are just PRETENDING because you want to stop DM and destroy Scientology. DM blew out of the room right after demonstrating his deep application of ARC and the TRs by committing mayhem upon one of the most valuable and dedicated people in Scientology. So then we all walked back into the conference room where Mike quipped with his usual dry wit, “I guess he didn’t like the edit.” At which point I was relieved that he had not suffered a severe concussion. None of us could decipher from his previous orders what Miscavige wanted in the first place. The only person who thought maybe he had a clue was Mike. So we followed his lead. It was a small edit involving a change in one sentence of narration in a horrifically awful video of total Miscavige bullshit that was utterly unfit to represent Scientology. Apparently, that one sentence was not bad enough to suit the the King of Squirrels.

    No one ever misunderstands anything around Dave Miscarriage. You intentionally faked ignorance to sabotage production and he caught you red handled, ADMIT IT!

    (Actually, I have tried to get him to clarify an incomprehensible order and it is impossible. He just says something amazing like, FUCK YOU: FIGURE IT OUT! AND FUCK YOU! And then he declares you the most out-ethics person in the history of Scientology. And then he goes all around the whole base telling everyone what you had the impertinence to say. He then asks them if THEY understand and they all say “Yes Sir, clear as a bell.” They also have no clue, but he won’t test them. Then at the next all base briefing, he announces that of 750 people on the Int base everyone can understand him except for one. (Suddenly you realize he’s speaking about you… now brace for it, because you know what is coming…) STAND UP AND CONFESS!

    Here’s how he starts an ordinary meeting: “I told your C.O. no one deserved it. Did you get that?” You think, ‘what the fuck is he talking about?’ “Yes Sir, I got that.” He says, “Are you sure?” You say, “Yes Sir.” He says, “Then what am I talking about?” You think fast and say, “What the CO said…” DM now loses it, “NO YOU FUCK… THE FUCKING POST. WHAT WAS THE POST?” Then to others in the room, “Did you hear what the fuck he said to me?” Now back to you, “Let me ask you, do you always lie?” now thundering “YES OR NO? WHO GAVE THE POST?” You hesitate, he cuts you off, “I want a sign around his neck ‘I LIE TO COB!’ And don’t take it off until you have a cognition. And if you do take it off, I want to know first.”

    Just spot the effort to put you into in a reeling confusion and then implant you with the idea that you are worthless.

  133. “The hardest lesson I ever had to learn is that it is a person’s actions that tell us most about their character.”
    and I will add….
    ……Or their “non-actions”

  134. I must say that THOUGHTFUL and MIke Rinder have some sizzling posts today.

  135. The original fences were just normal fences to keep coyotes out and they did not encircle the whole base. As an example, in 1989 a black bear showed up at the CMU offices (trailers) located next to the swamp. We were not within any fence which explains why the bear was able to come straight down off the mountain into our midst. Everyone stopped working and went out to look at him. Within a year that whole area was fenced in. Along with the fence, came a gate which at first lacked a camera. To get across Hwy 79, we had to press on the button and ask the guard to please open the gate. At some point it was decided we could only go out that gate if we were in a car. Otherwise we had to walk out down to another gate. I had Brad Kugler punch the button and ask for permission to come across while I made car noises in the background trying not to laugh. “Rumm, rumm, rum-rum-rum-rum-rum.” To our surprise Danny opened the gate. We laughed so hard. When Danny saw us walking across he chased us down — it was a real pleasure to see him so red-faced and angry. Later they put in the final gate with cameras. Anyway, depending on where you were posted, you could be inside a fence or not as I recall. Also in 1984, I used to sleep in the “G’s units.” They were not enclosed inside any fence. One had to walk quite a way along a trail, by a haunted weeping willow tree to reach them.

  136. Greetings Mark,
    Super cool. High Fives.
    Our paths continue to cross…
    What a journey….

  137. Eli, I hear what you are saying and I do not disagree with the points you make. It is true that Miscavige is not specifically guilty of the intended legal meaning of the word GENOCIDE, a term coined in 1948 by the United Nations to describe “the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group” in the order of magnitude that Adolf Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Idi Amin, Pol Pot and their ilk committed their world-renowned crimes against humanity.
    We (as humans) truly lack agreement and understanding on language and the cultural conceptualization of terms when it comes to distinguishing between the desecration of human life and the desecration of the human soul. Some humans enduring unbearable torture may view death as preferable because the pain and humiliation of torture will end so they may be free to move on from physical pain and simply cease to exist. Others will endure the physical experience knowing they cannot be killed spiritually. Still others may be killed yet continue to exist spiritually while retaining the humiliation and degradation of their own murder. Some know this to be true; some speculate on the possibility; still others know their bodily death is the death of individual consciousness. Your view of this predicament determines your relative value comparison of murder as solution vs. enslavement as solution, or death as Final Solution vs. control as Final Solution. One ends; one continues.
    Steve is not claiming that DM pulled the literal trigger on lives or ordered literal, overt murder. (Please note my use of “overt” in its common dictionary definition as an adjective, not a noun as per Scn usage.) He stated people died; he did not state people were overtly murdered.
    Nazi Germany vs. Jews might not be the best comparison to DM vs. his staff. It is not DM’s intent to “get rid” of the people he harms in his day-to-day routine (as was Hitler’s goal for the Jews.) Murder is final and it is overtly committed. The victim’s death is a solution – the Final Solution – in the mind of the murderer. DM’s intent is to control, not rid. If his victims are dead, he no longer controls them.
    Recall Annie Tidman’s attempted escape to be with her beloved husband, Jim Logan. If she had been a Jew escaping from a concentration camp she would have been shot, and it would have been over. However, she was more important to DM than a mere human escaping the confines of the Base. He HAD to have her – body and soul – in his possession. He had to control her.
    If humans are merely the sum of their biological parts, their suffering is finished once they are dead. That is all that mattered to Hitler in regard to the Jewish Problem. In contrast, Miscavige NEEDS his victims to be alive – sentient and aware – so he can control them.
    Your own personal and cultural values determine the comparison of evil between Hitler and Miscavige. Neither’s plight belittles the individual experience of the other.

  138. Today I am happily married to a better wife with a daughter due in November. By leaving I eventually got myself back, started moving up the Bridge after waiting for 23 years, got my integrity and sense of honor back, got better friends than I ever had at the Int base, got completely de-PTSed… basically got everything and am having a blast. So the loss turned into a tremendous gain. I would never want to go back.

  139. Thank you….wow….just when I think I understand the pathology of DM’s case, I get even more information showing that there is way more to it than we have been exposed to so far.

  140. Steve, your interview was quite moving in spite of such a short story! Many of us have never met and may or may not this lifetime. So for me, I dono, adds sometimes needed reality for lack of a better explanation, to see such an honest and real and clear recounting of why we gather about this mess. And your follow up comments made it all the more so.

    VVWD! And as you mentioned, props indeed to Bunker.

  141. I disagree Marty,

    I read the post a couple of times and I don’t think that it nullifys what Steve or Mike experienced in the slightest, nor does it defend the actions of a lunatic. What DM did/does is not in any way lessened by what Chuck wrote. What Chuck wrote is what many here and elsewhere don’t want to confront, the darker side of what went on in the SO.

    I found the post enlightening, not troubling. I’ve long come to grips with many truths about LRH, and having done so, my admiration for the man grew much, much greater than when I swallowed all the PR bull we were fed about him for decades.The fact he had a temper, that he made mistakes, that maybe on some occasions he should have gone for a walk rather than write a PL doesn’t lessen my view of the man.

    It takes integrity to write a post as Chuck just did, and you did the right thing in recognizing the value in it.

    No sane person would compare LRH with DM, to do so is an act of insanity, and no one reading Chuck’s post would lessen their condemnation of the lunatic just because LRH occasionally acted unwisely.

    My opinion.

  142. Cindy Plahuta

    I spoke to a friend that went into the new Ideal Org in Denver around three weeks ago. On a Friday night there was two people in the courseroom. Both were staff members. There was NO One in the Div 6 courseroom. There was no Supervisor either. There is NO Foundation Auditor! How is that for a new Ideal Org? Priceless! 10 + Million dollars and no results.
    Now I wonder what the last of the Denver Public is going to do? Have more fundraisers to keep the lights on?

  143. Thanks Karen – you were the catalyst. It was your post two years ago that got me thinking. Thanks for that!

  144. EnthralledObserver

    How can you have a troll on a moderated blogg…? My last comment didn’t cut the grade and I felt it was quite reasonable for someone with an interest, yet no personal experience, in this issue of Scientology and Miscavige. He’s not a troll, just a comment that Marty felt like humoring… this time.

  145. Thanks, Steve. KSW is really hard these days because you are forced to really distill what Scientology really is. “Having the technology” is really deceptive, because the “three-swing F/N” is NOT the technology, and neither is sec-checking the cuss out of OTs. But hey, if it was easy, we wouldn’t have to do it, would we?

  146. Thanks for the link. I am in Oregon (another one from the great North West! Gotta keep Texans on their toes.). We’ll see where I go with delivery. I have ideas.

  147. I don’t read it this way, Marty. It makes sense to me that LRH blowing his stacks sometimes could have “legitimized” Miscavige’s violence. Even more, make it acceptable by the victims.
    When I saw the post on Steve, I thought, oh not again!
    Miscavige’s crime is the perversion of the tech. the PITCH BLACK DIANETICS, the doing in of Thetans, not the kicking of bodies.

  148. Thanks, Scott! Likewise.

  149. Too bad about your wife.

    My 15yo son told me this morning about a dream he had last night. He was walking around saying ‘hello!’ to many of those who disconnected from us. This upset them tremendously, but then they changed their attitude, smiled and started talking like there was no stopping them. Then Miscavige was gone and they celebrated.

  150. Understood. We Scientologists have very intertwined lives. I am allowing some bridges to be susceptible to burning – I won’t light the fire, but who knows about my inside friends? Intertwined is the word – my step-mother was the supervisor for David Miscavige’s comm course when he was a kid. For those who know (or know of) Jon Zegel, he was my comm course and HQS sup.

  151. Hi Mark!

  152. “Woe to him who stabs his neighbor by executive order, for the handle is more deadly than the blade.”
    Wow, Steve, you’re really kicking this morning!
    Your story further up (the trap you were in) sounds real baaaad!!
    So glad, you’re out and kicking!
    PS: I also loved:
    “When things weren’t going well (which was all the time)…

  153. That was a good one!

  154. I agree, Tessa. Making people guilty of overts, is the way to kick them in
    as Thetans. Kicking their bodies goes in the same direction of course,
    it’s like a generality, but making them admit, AGREE to overts they don’t perceive as such, is really sending them down the chute.
    Glad you left!

  155. Thank you for your contribution and also to Mr Rathbun for having the courage to publish this. We have to face the truth. I entered Scn late seventies and very soon the ‘macho-militaristic leadership style’ struck me as very odd in a movement that was supposed to bring spirituality and enlightenment. It was a huge mental clash, I have been trying to ‘rationalize’ ever since, till I gave up.

  156. Wow! I had no idea you were going to be a Daddy! Fantastic news! Being a father is just the best thing; my 2 girls are everything to me.

  157. scilonschools

    As much as i have issues with the ‘creation’ of Scientology, LRH wrote EVERYTHING down, good and bad, allowing this debate and discussion, DM wishes to squirrel the Tech, losing LRH’s clear WARNINGS, and you have to ask WHY?

  158. scilonschools

    I think LRH made his warnings very CLEAR, I disagree about the statement suggesting LRH should have favored ‘Scientologist;, the TECH was for ALL of MANKIND!

  159. scilonschools

    “Stop Don’t, Why wont she listen to Mr Womka, Because she is a NITWIT!!”

  160. I can fully recommend ‘The Sociopath Next Door’.
    Imagine however a true sociopath with Scientology tech at his disposal: that’s a totally different league than your perfectly ordinary neighbour!
    If such a sociopath gets hold of a religious movement, he will turn it into a deadly dangerous machine that destroys people and the religion also.
    It is more than tragic that it should happen within Scientology: a place where you would think they are fully equipped to handle such a thing.
    Maybe this is the biggest lesson Scientogists have to learn right now. Because the more knowledge you have, the more responsibility you have.

  161. Miscavige murdered no one. Miscavige didn’t cause the motorcycle accidents. While he may be cruel cult leader, unfortunate accidents happen. You’re just being sensational and hyperbolic. That’s fine, but you should be a little more up front about it.

    I have question for you however – why do you need to make ad hominem attacks on someone who just questions your opinion? Isn’t there something in Scientology scriptures about this, “attack the attacker” or something like that? I’ve noticed other people on this board do it too.

  162. scilonschools

    Mikr please see my reply to Publius (assumomg Marty wishes to poat yjem, awaiting moderation at mo), This is NOT a critisism against LRH’s ORIGINAL TECH!,
    Yours Often Misunderstood,
    Scientology Critic (and Original Tech appreciater)

  163. Yes Pat, he did actually say that. He said: “I had many friends who were indeed tortured and who died there.” Perhaps you should re-read it.

  164. I agree with you Ronnie. I read his comment and maybe I am stupid or my englisg is not good enough…my only question to Chuck is what is his point actually? I also work for around 14 years in Scientology (I am Ex-SO)…maybe he should put more info on that subject.

  165. Chuck, your post is an extended non-sequitur type of argument. The fact is that David Miscavige must stand on his own and answer for his own conduct. You cannot blame his incredible violence on anyone else.

    The fundamental error in your essay is that it equates David Miscavige’s extreme violence with LRH’s policies.

    This is A=A=A.

    Your flawed logic assumes that David Miscavige never had any choice in the matter of his violence due to policy.

    The fact is that David Miscavige is violent because he is violent.

    LRH policy has never gotten in the way of David Miscavige doing whatever he wants — witness the fact that he dictates policy all day long in the 1,000’s of binders labeled “Not to Leave Int Base” which are David Miscavige policies that cancel, trump, and supersede LRH policy.

  166. So true Larry.

  167. Of course that you’re entitled to doing what you want on your blog, Marty, but I strongly disagree that Chuck’s post a defense of David Miscavige.
    Chuck only says that the root of evil in Co$ is not Miscavige, but rather Hubbard himself. It cuts across your fundamental belief though and therefore is hard to accept. You could at least be honest and refuse it as such, but no, you’ve got to practice “alter-is” and make it what you call “a defense of David Miscavige.”

  168. Joe Pendleton

    The issue of the many sides of LRH will continue to greatly interest, perplex and I guess fascinate folks for as long as the history of Scientology remains a subject that is studied and written about and debated (by Scientologists and non Scientologists). Short version: LRH was a genius whose wisdom will continue to be studied and continue to benefit people for the long long future ahead. And …. he also had a VERY big not fully handled case (which I guess just in itself is a shock and disappointment to some folks) and I think most of us who post here have become aware of a number of the specifics in this regard. Thomas Jefferson was also a genius, whose wisdom has been studied for over two hundred years and whose ideas about freedom and liberty have spoken to and inspired many peoples of many countries. And yet he always owned about 250 other human beings at any given time and denied them any liberty or pursuit of happiness at all (and yes, while treating a female slave essentially as his wife and fathering children with her, he denied her people the rights to have real family lives themselves). Like Ron, Jefferson was not just a great thinker, but a do-er. He brilliantly doubled the size of the entire United States for a mere 6 million bucks or so (Louisiana Purchase). And I am sure other such examples of great men and women can be found. So i come here to love Ron for his genius and his intense desire to understand life and help other beings and to understand his blind spots so that we don’t have to slavishly be bound by THOSE factors in Scientology. As LRH said so wisely “The practice of not-isness reduces understanding.”

  169. Joe Pendleton

    Marty, I’ll take just a slightly different view of this than you. I think Chuck’s post was fascinating and important to an overview of the history and the developement of the culture of Scientology which enabled the Miscavige era to be possible and then to even take hold (as there were factors in German culture for hundreds of years which laid many of the seeds for the Nazi era). BUT …. there is absolutely NO defense or excuses or justifications possible for David Miscavige’s actions and for his crimes. He cannot even take the excuses of being PTS or stressed out or sleep and food deprived or Stockholm Syndrome or some such. Miscavige himself chose the path of terror – psychological terror and invalidation and then physical. He uses FORCE to control other beings (to “adjust” others’ realities, which really means to implant his own reality in other beings), which of course is the direct opposite of the stated goals of Scientology. He is COMPLETELY responsible for the acts he has committed and one day may even realize that himself (not that I am reccomending anyone to hold their breath in that regard).

  170. Eli, a bad memory lingers of the male population on the INT RPF
    stood outside naked in a long line with a bar of soap in their hands
    waiting for a shower. There were some fences and a guard. Even
    though it was a balmy Southern Calif late afternoon, it sent some
    shivers down my spine.

  171. Omitted data are most difficult to notice. And it seems to me some of these stories omit relevant data.
    John McMasters, who was also reported to have been mistreated by LRH, tells on a tape that LRH had apologized afterwards. I have never heard something like that from DM.
    Same goes with the Otto Roos story. I read it and noticed that Otto wanted to do some good by FESing all of Rons folders, but had failed to establish ARC on that before looking into LRHs folders. So to this story there are missing parts and data which, if viewed more completely give an entirely different picture.
    There are differences between an anti-social person and a social one.

  172. Theo Sismanides

    Hey Steve, this is great! I very much liked your professionalism on the video, your comments on marketing and DM’s marketing and how you stated you didn’t like that kind of marketing…. So now it’s the time for us to get our due back and this is what we are doing. I am happy to hear all this good things from you and you being one of the most active Indies! Great!

  173. Loved to read you write-up, Mark.

  174. Don’t forget the Dianetics Crayfish Party for Sweden.

  175. Fantastic announcement, Mark.

  176. Dan — I thought it was the “Surstroemming Fish Fest” for Sweden…..

  177. martyrathbun09

    Thank you Dr. Ruth.

  178. Welcome Mark. I have enjoyed your many posts. It has always been clear you know of which you speak.

  179. From the Geneva Convention : no soldier escapes punishment by using the orders of his senior to justify his own taking part in disgusting crimes.

    ( retranslated into English )

  180. Poor David – he has “realized” he is the only OT in the world, surrounded by worthless aberrees, degraded beings and counter-intentioned scum …

    It sucks to be Miscavige.

  181. martyrathbun09

    By the way, I disagree. I think (different than ‘believe’) Chuck is playing into the following (posted in summer 2009), and intentionally so:
    DM=LRH = 1984 Doublethink Newspeak

    Posted on September 9, 2009 by martyrathbun09 | 31 Comments| Edit





    DM played right into our hands with some very ill-advised haymakers in response to recent truths being shared. One was in the form of 250 pages of declarations sworn by twenty-five inmates of the Hole. They are designed to annihilate the credibility of me, Mike, Tom and Amy. DM took the false rumors about me wanting to take over his little Jonestown so seriously that he had his minions go way overboard in electing him source in their sworn declarations. Just as we predicted, he has now locked himself into some untenable positions, and more importantly, has left himself defenseless against what is coming a little ways down the road.

    In any event, some of the statements in the declarations are so fawning, they are not only cultic and creepy, they indicate 1984 is upon them in full force.

    From Marc Yager, identified as CO CMO INT and WDC Chairman:

    “Statements made about our religious leader are inseparable to the religion itself and this is an attempt to attack and ridicule the Scientology religion, the ecclesiastical team that is dedicated to implementing our Founder’s scriptures, the millions of Scientologists that live both in the United States and abroad and the thousands of dedicated staff that have volunteered service to help humanity.”

    From Russ Bellin, identified as Int Reserves Dir in CSI (he does not explain how DM busted him from CO and Director of the same Church of Spiritual Technology that DM has attested to the IRS is senior to himself as COB RTC):

    “Marty Rathbun is openly attacking the leader of our religion, the very principles of Scientology and our Founder.”

    Mark Ingber, identified as a WDC member:

    “It is with considerable asperity that I look upon the handful of ex-Scientologists who are yapping vile lies to the media about Mr. Miscavige. That is not an attack just on Mr. Miscavige. It is an attack on L. Ron Hubbard and the Scientology religion.”

    Sue Wilhere, identified as CSI’s AVC Aide:

    “Mr. Miscavige is Scientology. He is the emissary of L. Ron Hubbard. Their attack on Mr. Miscavige is a direct attack on L. Ron Hubbard and on Scientology – they are not separable.”

    Again, Orwell explains:

    “Orthodoxy in the full sense demands a control over one’s own mental processes as complete as that of a contortionist over his body. Oceanic society rests ultimately on the belief that Big Brother is omnipotent and that the Party is infallible. But since in reality Big Brother is not omnipotent and the Party is not infallible, there is need for an unwearying, moment-to-moment flexibility in the treatment of facts. The key word here is blackwhite. Like so many Newspeak words, this word has two mutually contradictory meanings. Applied to an opponent, it means the habit of impudently claiming that black is white, in contradiction to the plain facts. Applied to a Party member, it means a loyal willingness to say that black is white when Party discipline demands this. But it means also the ability to believe that black is white, and more, to know that black is white, and to forget that one has ever believed the contrary. This demands a continuous alteration of the past, made possible by the system of thought which really embraces all the rest, and which is known in Newspeak as doublethink.





  182. martyrathbun09

    I disagee. I think Chuck is playing the same lack of diffentiation game Miscavige’s own people have been playing, covered in this post in Aug 2009:
    DM=LRH = 1984 Doublethink Newspeak

    Posted on September 9, 2009 by martyrathbun09 | 31 Comments| Edit





    DM played right into our hands with some very ill-advised haymakers in response to recent truths being shared. One was in the form of 250 pages of declarations sworn by twenty-five inmates of the Hole. They are designed to annihilate the credibility of me, Mike, Tom and Amy. DM took the false rumors about me wanting to take over his little Jonestown so seriously that he had his minions go way overboard in electing him source in their sworn declarations. Just as we predicted, he has now locked himself into some untenable positions, and more importantly, has left himself defenseless against what is coming a little ways down the road.

    In any event, some of the statements in the declarations are so fawning, they are not only cultic and creepy, they indicate 1984 is upon them in full force.

    From Marc Yager, identified as CO CMO INT and WDC Chairman:

    “Statements made about our religious leader are inseparable to the religion itself and this is an attempt to attack and ridicule the Scientology religion, the ecclesiastical team that is dedicated to implementing our Founder’s scriptures, the millions of Scientologists that live both in the United States and abroad and the thousands of dedicated staff that have volunteered service to help humanity.”

    From Russ Bellin, identified as Int Reserves Dir in CSI (he does not explain how DM busted him from CO and Director of the same Church of Spiritual Technology that DM has attested to the IRS is senior to himself as COB RTC):

    “Marty Rathbun is openly attacking the leader of our religion, the very principles of Scientology and our Founder.”

    Mark Ingber, identified as a WDC member:

    “It is with considerable asperity that I look upon the handful of ex-Scientologists who are yapping vile lies to the media about Mr. Miscavige. That is not an attack just on Mr. Miscavige. It is an attack on L. Ron Hubbard and the Scientology religion.”

    Sue Wilhere, identified as CSI’s AVC Aide:

    “Mr. Miscavige is Scientology. He is the emissary of L. Ron Hubbard. Their attack on Mr. Miscavige is a direct attack on L. Ron Hubbard and on Scientology – they are not separable.”

    Again, Orwell explains:

    “Orthodoxy in the full sense demands a control over one’s own mental processes as complete as that of a contortionist over his body. Oceanic society rests ultimately on the belief that Big Brother is omnipotent and that the Party is infallible. But since in reality Big Brother is not omnipotent and the Party is not infallible, there is need for an unwearying, moment-to-moment flexibility in the treatment of facts. The key word here is blackwhite. Like so many Newspeak words, this word has two mutually contradictory meanings. Applied to an opponent, it means the habit of impudently claiming that black is white, in contradiction to the plain facts. Applied to a Party member, it means a loyal willingness to say that black is white when Party discipline demands this. But it means also the ability to believe that black is white, and more, to know that black is white, and to forget that one has ever believed the contrary. This demands a continuous alteration of the past, made possible by the system of thought which really embraces all the rest, and which is known in Newspeak as doublethink.





  183. martyrathbun09

    I beg to slightly differ. I think Chuck is playing much the same identification game Miscavige is, as outlined in this post from Aug 09:
    DM=LRH = 1984 Doublethink Newspeak

    Posted on September 9, 2009 by martyrathbun09 | 31 Comments| Edit





    DM played right into our hands with some very ill-advised haymakers in response to recent truths being shared. One was in the form of 250 pages of declarations sworn by twenty-five inmates of the Hole. They are designed to annihilate the credibility of me, Mike, Tom and Amy. DM took the false rumors about me wanting to take over his little Jonestown so seriously that he had his minions go way overboard in electing him source in their sworn declarations. Just as we predicted, he has now locked himself into some untenable positions, and more importantly, has left himself defenseless against what is coming a little ways down the road.

    In any event, some of the statements in the declarations are so fawning, they are not only cultic and creepy, they indicate 1984 is upon them in full force.

    From Marc Yager, identified as CO CMO INT and WDC Chairman:

    “Statements made about our religious leader are inseparable to the religion itself and this is an attempt to attack and ridicule the Scientology religion, the ecclesiastical team that is dedicated to implementing our Founder’s scriptures, the millions of Scientologists that live both in the United States and abroad and the thousands of dedicated staff that have volunteered service to help humanity.”

    From Russ Bellin, identified as Int Reserves Dir in CSI (he does not explain how DM busted him from CO and Director of the same Church of Spiritual Technology that DM has attested to the IRS is senior to himself as COB RTC):

    “Marty Rathbun is openly attacking the leader of our religion, the very principles of Scientology and our Founder.”

    Mark Ingber, identified as a WDC member:

    “It is with considerable asperity that I look upon the handful of ex-Scientologists who are yapping vile lies to the media about Mr. Miscavige. That is not an attack just on Mr. Miscavige. It is an attack on L. Ron Hubbard and the Scientology religion.”

    Sue Wilhere, identified as CSI’s AVC Aide:

    “Mr. Miscavige is Scientology. He is the emissary of L. Ron Hubbard. Their attack on Mr. Miscavige is a direct attack on L. Ron Hubbard and on Scientology – they are not separable.”

    Again, Orwell explains:

    “Orthodoxy in the full sense demands a control over one’s own mental processes as complete as that of a contortionist over his body. Oceanic society rests ultimately on the belief that Big Brother is omnipotent and that the Party is infallible. But since in reality Big Brother is not omnipotent and the Party is not infallible, there is need for an unwearying, moment-to-moment flexibility in the treatment of facts. The key word here is blackwhite. Like so many Newspeak words, this word has two mutually contradictory meanings. Applied to an opponent, it means the habit of impudently claiming that black is white, in contradiction to the plain facts. Applied to a Party member, it means a loyal willingness to say that black is white when Party discipline demands this. But it means also the ability to believe that black is white, and more, to know that black is white, and to forget that one has ever believed the contrary. This demands a continuous alteration of the past, made possible by the system of thought which really embraces all the rest, and which is known in Newspeak as doublethink.





  184. Steve,
    Your description of how the doors to the outside were progressively being shut at the Int Base is chilling. So is your metaphor of David Miscavage, as a spider, slowly webbing its web around you, it is straight out of a horror story.
    My deepest respect to you, Mike Rinder and to all the unlucky Scientologist who had to endure this nightmare.

    Thank you for telling your story,

  185. TheWidowDenk

    Welcome Mark! What a nice (exit) (entrance) you have made. So nice to know who has been making such astute comments. We embrace you!
    L, Rachel

  186. You’re right that Co$ does that and it’s very insidious. And OK, some of my statements of facts should have been introduced as my opinions and we should talk about the “fundamental opinion” or a “stable datum” of yours or the Independents.
    On the other hand just like putting the “equals” sign between DM and LRH is an act of alter-is-ness, so is saying that Co$ is corrupted just because of DM. Yes, he brought the culture of force and violence to the heights unimaginable before. But as Chuck says, he wasn’t the first one to do violent things in Co$ and no one in the culture that existed at the time in Co$, when he was still a little tyrant, didn’t stop him from doing doing them and eventually from seizing the power.
    An example of what LRH was capable to introduce, an issue of “the Auditor” from 1968 informed of throwing students overboard for a flunk (the picture is easily googleable). There are reports of this done to some people who couldn’t swim and John McMaster broke his arm after being thrown overboard and left in water for long in spite of his painful shouting.

  187. “DID YOU KNOW? 2136 Australians told last year’s census they were Scientologists.”
    “… a 13.7 per cent drop from the 2006 census. The results showed WA’s contingent of Scientologists was the third biggest in the country, behind NSW (884) and Victoria (620).”

    — Well, so that is the OVERWHELMING EXPANSION we are talking about.
    — The suppression down under is too bloody strong that Aussies have to hide their identity as a Scientologist. Therefore the censor result is far from the number in our CF.

    Thank you Eric, for this important information that can not be proven or denied by the RCS.

  188. Steve,
    Thank you for telling us all what the scene really is like in the insanitarium of the Int Base. It truly is beyond ordinary comprehension.

    Kudos to you, Mike, Marty and all of the others who were and are able to break the spell and get into action on living life!

  189. Eli – No, I am not attacking any attacker. You have taken to task a comparison to Hitler and Nazi activities. You have been given specifics. You then state “Miscavige murdered no one. Miscavige didn’t cause the motorcycle accidents.”

    To be blunt – during world war II an estimated 60 million or so people died. An insane person, Adolph Hitler, was a main driving force. How many did he personally shoot? Per your argument – he didn’t pull the trigger so he didn’t kill them.

    I suggest you re-read the exchange of postings and look at what was said. I am sticking up for only the facts here. And for your knowledge I have family on both the American and the German side of this issue. My German relatives still live in Germany. I, personally, have been told by them how their lives were affected by the orders of a mad man. Yet, even when they knew it was wrong, they did follow the orders and remain quiet.

    This blog is about the actions of Steve and his work to correct the abuse and alteration of the subject of Scientology into something it was not meant to be. Your comments are not for or against the subject matter but instead leading off into some other argument that nobody here is making, or defending. Please read the responses posted to you from that viewpoint.

  190. Jesus – Just when you think you have heard it all – there is more – I can’t wait until you succeed in bringing DM completely down. He is a sociopath and as one poster said there is probably more horrendous @#$@ that is not being told. How anyone stands there while a man’s head is bringing slammed into the wall some three times is beyond me, but as it has been said, this is slow indoctrination of years and years. But Jesus, still. The sooner this sadistic zero of a man is ousted the better.

  191. And a new one will come if scientologists won’t confront the factual history of their movement.

  192. And one more thing. Just in case DM’s “camp” does read here. The fact that M. Rathbun and M. Rinder and a slew of others have rebuilt their lives in a beautiful way is a testament to their incredible courage and spirt and they all seem to do it with a great sense of humor – the likes of which I have not seen before and we can all learn from it whether we are scientologists or not.

  193. Marty this is really a great point you made here and so remarkably fitting based on actual observations of how people like Lisa Schroer actual operated after DM put her “in charge” of the whole Int base. Orwell was so chillingly accurate I am astonished how he could know and have predicted. Especially his description of Doublethinkers actually developing the skill to believe black is white, when only yesterday they believed white was black. Lisa Schroer would get heavily involved in a video edit, working with Marc Headley and the editor. She would direct certain changes. Then when COB saw it and erupted she would come down form the hill as the Wicked Witch publicly skewer Marc and anyone else for the very changes she actually made in the video, screaming “MARC! WHAT THE FUCK WERE YOU THINKING? THIS EDIT IS A SUPPRESSIVE PIECE OF SHIT! THIS IS DISGUSTING. MARC! WHAT WERE YOU THINKING? I WANT TO KNOW, START CONFESSING” etc., as if she had no idea SHE ordered the very changes she was now lambasting her junior for. I saw this operating basis really start to jell in November 2003. That’s when she “got it.” Marc and the rest of us were supposed to learn the same lesson and respond accordingly, but the lesson didn’t take with some people.

  194. Hi Bob! I remember our Friday pizza luncheons at Raffalo’s very fondly. Glad to be back in comm.

  195. Thank you. Your site looks like a gold mine – I wish I could read it!

  196. Thanks, Dan. Love your art, love your words.

  197. Chuck, I’m not going to belabor this point, but your conclusion is illogical because PURPOSE is senior to POLICY. DM is evil because his purposes are evil — he’s an SP. LRH made mistakes, we’ve acknowledged that a million times, but he was not evil. Inserting stupid arguments that let DM off the hook is really getting old. DM didn’t burn down the Church “because he came from a bad neighborhood.” No, the clever little prick uses cherry picked POLICIES to support his evil PURPOSES and pull the wool over his flock of degraded beings who will take orders from an SP.

  198. Thank you, Mike. It has been a pleasure writing them. It just got to the point where I had to ask myself do I move forward, or move on? I look at what I gained from Scientology and it just pisses me off that it is so maligned and so misunderstood and that DM and the ‘droids have gutted the damn thing while having the stones to claim they are the saviors of the freaking planet. So, I decided to move forward.

    I am so happy for you and Christie and the baby. What a great way to contrast life under POB’s copper rod and life being free.

  199. Ah, Rachel, thank you. Like so many here, I knew and loved your husband, and I admire the work you did for the “Writers of the Future.” One of the great legacies of Ron. I love the way certain SF fans go tilt like Norman on Star Trek when they try to reconcile in their brain that the founder of Scientology wrote some very good science fiction.

  200. 250,000 vs. 2,136 in the official Aussie census. They are off by two orders of magnitude. What a HUGE lie.


  201. martyrathbun09

    I sincerely suggest you apply such rational axioms to yourself. There is more to history than the whining of the victim.

  202. No way am I a victim, Marty, partly because I HAVE applied what I preach.

  203. martyrathbun09

    Well, you are quite apparently acting like one, because I never implied or inferred you were one. I was referring to Chuck’s one-sided condemnation of a man who lived a 74 year life which ended 26 years ago to explain an aggravated assault and battery of recent vintage.

  204. Theo Sismanides

    Yes Valkov, that one, Punishing Bodies… thanks. Definitely DM knows how to deal with the lower strata of the Tone Scale and he introverts a being down to those Tone Levels. It is interesting to see how he manages to bring one down to those Tone Levels.

    Pity -0.1
    Shame, (being other bodies) -0.2
    Accountable -0.7
    Blame, (punishing other bodies) -1.0
    Regret, (responsibility as blame) -1.3
    Controlling Bodies -1.5 Effort
    Protecting Bodies -2.2
    Owning Bodies -3.0 Think
    Approval from Bodies -3.5
    Needing Bodies -4.0 Symbols

    Approval from COB and Needing COB is one Standard Tone in the SO I guess…

  205. Mark — I am sure glad you did. Mike

  206. Oh I see. Well, I did not get that. Chuck mentions many facts supported by multiple sources and he doesn’t forget to acknowledge LRH for the good side of the things multiple times throughout the text. So it wouldn’t occur to me that the text would seem to you as a victim’s whine. But of course, I have only seen this one text, so I’m out of context here.

  207. martyrathbun09

    That is because you and I have different levels of observational skills and depth of understanding of emotional tones (not saying whose is better), imho.

  208. Well, I can live with that 😉

  209. Li'll bit of stuff

    Mark,so glad to see you expanding in this way! As a well
    trained Scientologist, you have alrerady made some superb
    postings here, and now that the “mask” is dispensed with,
    I’m certain that your power will increase exponentially.

    Congrats then on finally stepping into the sunshine!
    Wonderful to at last be able to say—-Welcome, MARK!!
    Calvin B. Duffield
    Indie 500 no # 301

  210. So sorry about your friends Eli. It is interesting to note Germany’s attitude toward Scientology. They don’t want a repeat.

  211. I don’t know about that Eli – the man was probably dead exhausted from working nonstop at DM house for NOTHING so that if he had not be treated as a SLAVE, he might very well have remembered to put the kickstand up on his motorcycle..

  212. Li'll bit of stuff

    No need to Marty! True balanced ability speaks
    for itself, sans the epaulettes and / or “degrees,
    which are no subtitutes for a man / women to
    TRULY know themselves. And how CAN one claim to know themselves, if they have never
    taken the trouble to really look?

    That is the point where our “science” orientated
    friends grind to a halt. They absolutely refuse to
    answer that very uncomfortable question:

    ” Just WHO or WHAT are YOU? “

  213. Is that an allusion to my English blog?

  214. Better someday to meet in person, or like suggested, me really write my whole “argument” out.

    I agree that DM is the source of the worst these last 30 years, no argument.

    I don’t think DM is even comparable to LRH.

    DM’s positive legacy will be the buildings, and we’ll have to see if they were a mistake and have to be sold later due to all the buildings not being sustainable financially.

    DM’s of course ruined the last 30 years, and of course his violence is not comparable to LRH’s. LRH’s violence was few and far inbetween, but it did have devastating effects on those who loved LRH.

    DM was never loved, never attracted people to come work for DM, like LRH was so capable of getting untold numbers of people over the years to come work directly for LRH in the Sea Org.

    Of course DM is not even a Brigham Young, I didn’t like even Janet Reitman’s statement of DM being somehow the person to take over next from LRH.

    I think we were wrong to let DM be the leader, LRH didn’t want a leader like DM’s molded his role into the movement’s last 30 years.

    I’m inclined to think DM’s only positive will be the buildings, and that’s not gonna be a good ending either, since Scientology’s reputation is so bad, people are scared to come find out what it is.

    My analysis point is Exec Strata, lack of, they were to tweet major strategic moves to expand the movement.

    DM’s hobby horsed it.

    My comments in this thread, were only on the violence history.

    I would love someone write a DM biography, and include all his machinations and violence and irrationalities.

    His volumes of orders are NOTHING worthwhile, and we all know when DM is gone, so will go all his volumes of crap orders right back OFF the shelves of all those at the Int Base.

    DM should have been derailed back when LRH ordered Jesse Prince to sec check DM.


    LRH’s 1982 writings are quite clear, the Int Base was to be have an Int Headquarters made up of WDC and Exec Strata, doing the strategic thinking as top management for the movement.

    RTC was a joke, in my opinion, they meddled, and them DM meddled and he frankly hasn’t a fricking clue.

    LRH’s warmth in his writings, ALL of his writings, all of his lectures, comes through, and is the positive in Scientology, period.

    DM is nothing in Scientology history, just a 30 years plus distraction, and for sure an evil son of a bitch, and I agree with all criticism of DM, and my comments here on LRH, I agree, ought better to have been in my own book or blog.

    Marty’s blog and the discussions it has elicited the last several years are priceless insider history.

    And so are all your writings Steve.

    I just so wished Exec Strata has been allowed to evolve, and if the official movement survives, I hope someday Exec Strata grows up and fixes the movement’s problems.

    I personally don’t think DM anything but a little bully, ursurping power that LRH didn’t intend he even usurp, and he’s knocked out LRH’s final years of admin orders, as well as turned Int Base into an insane Stanley Milgram experiment or Zimbardo experiment.

    And in that context, all criticism of my comments about LRH’s history of violence, I agree with any criticism of my “over itsa”, sorry.

    Scientology is LRH.

    DM will be washed out of Scientology history, in time.

    The only lesson on the violence, is to NOT let another DM character in the future misuse any of LRH’s figurative violence comments, was one of my intended points.

    My other points, of my comments, was use the FPRD orders of 1982, since I believe it was LRH’s intention to have EPRD done on top Int Execs first.

    And the Jesse sec check on DM should have resulted in DM being ejected way back then, but that one missed.

    I accept all the criticsm.

  215. Marty,

    Maybe next time, just shoot me an email, and not post stuff that is so poorly written up.

    I should have given my material a better review before posting it, and even any further comments I make below, aren’t enough time either.


    Just reject my comments in future, and email me.

    I don’t want to waste your time, nor derail the issues you think important, and I agree with all criticism of my postings here, sorry.


  216. Well Jay, I’d say my mistake was “viewpoint PL”, meaning not taking into consideration the things I omitted to say, which didn’t appear, which I believe, which I see now, those things I left out, gave the overall impression I think LRH is the culprit and DM is just a follower.

    Of course DM is a whole evil kettle of fish like no one at the top ranks in the whole Scientology movement’s history.

    “individuation” tape is the 1959 tool LRH gave staff to sec check their Executive Directors. “Corrupt Activities” was the 1982 policy LRH gave staff to confront their superiors even.

    LRH ordered the 1982 False Purpose Rundown security checking research, and the top execs at the Int Base were to get it first.

    DM failed to be spotted and handled standardly by internal policy and tech tools that LRH has written.

    I omitted the context, so it comes across as non sequiter if you are unfamiliar with the things I said and implied and I failed to fill in the details, and like the short criticism, I should write my own book, and refrain from these half assed comments here, which I will do.

  217. martyrathbun09

    I think it is precisely the reverse. You are applying the Viewpoint PL too literally. Your feelings about Scientology are not necessarily what you attempt to portray here so sometimes (quite evident by what you post in other forums) I suppose your real intent shines through when you are attempting to respect this forum. I respect your respect for this forum and its denizens. But, in the context of that last point, your desire to give Miscavige a pass for the years of serial FELONY aggravated (not simple) assault and battery shone through; and it just happened to align quite nicely with Miscavige’s PR strategy for the past three years. I was simply pointing that out.

  218. martyrathbun09

    Not a big deal Chuck. See my reply to your other comment. I don’t want to censor you; and I had an observation I felt needed sharing about the possible effect of that one comment.

  219. Dear Joe,

    thanks. What you said above, is more proof to me of the people who will always find and use the positive that helps them, from Scientology, and be thankful, of LRH.

    I think we all saw LRH’s warts, and were appreciative of what better we got from being part of Scientology.

    I apologize for not taking a little more time, and likely I shouldn’t have posted at all.

    To me, the whole independent Scientology is an important free speaking body of Scientologists, is far more important to helping official Scientology evolve, I think that is historically proven by other religions’ histories.

    What I always think, in the back of my mind, is the official movement is slow to change, and the biggest thing is losing DM out of their lineup, is the most important thing for them. DM’s leeching off LRH’s years of admin structures that support DM.


  220. You’re welcomed. Part of the difficulty on spotting what he is, is he’s so over the top, he’s not like anyone you EVER met before… and so you simply “can’t think” how to respond to him or what he’s about. He shouts a lot, hence the caps. Plus everyone treats him like he’s a “powerful being” which adds to the false data. He’s a sociopath the like of which few have ever known. In person, his forcefulness is like the shock wave from a bomb blast. But it’s just a trick he’s learned. I can mock it up and you could learn to do it, too. But it’s not useful unless you are an SP. The point is Understanding is the key to dealing with others, not force. I’m eventually going to do a video or two and when I do I will mock up how he really is. I didn’t want to blow out Mark Bunker’s microphone so I kept it throttled back.

  221. Ouch. I’d like to buy a paragraph break. (Sorry about the formatting.)

  222. Li'll bit of stuff

    No allusion, just please answer the question.

  223. Steve, commenting ONLY on the buildings and Chuck’s suggestion that they serve to establish a lasting effect, etc. – I agree that Casablanca is a more accurate and ideal representation of the BEST of LRH’s Scientology. However, if the MEST universe immediately froze in place and anthropologists and archeologists were to discover and reveal ALL scientifically discernable evidence of Scientology, the Ideal Morgues would be the most obvious relics. Obviation does not imply relative importance. This is simply an observation of physical evidence. There is no pretense to evaluate the importance of physical evidence in relation to anything outside the MEST universe.

    In comparison, consider other historical edifices and relics, such as the many Roman Catholic basilicas throughout Europe. Does their existance and representation of the Catholic Church justify or glorify the church’s long and horrible history that includes the Spanish Inquisition, witch burning, and priest pedophilia and child rape?

    I understand there are those who equate any representation of the Catholic Church as subtly/silently representing the church’s dark history and crimes as opposed to the Church’s more public aim of eternal salvation through God. I can only imagine how traumatic it must be for a victim of a priest’s sexual abuse to return to the sacred edifice where his/her abuse took place, and to be told that that place was a holy place of God.

    A Catholic child raped by his/her priest in a basilica will likely hate that basilica and its cultural associations since he has been so deeply betrayed. A deeply dedicated Sea Org Scientologist betrayed by DM’s ritual abuse will likely feel the same way toward any representation of DM, such as his behemoth Ideal Morgues. To such beings, these buildings are monoliths of lies and suppression. To those unfamililar with the current/recent history of Scientology, these buildings simply represent the name, “The Church of Scientology” just as the beautiful European basilicas lighty represent the Catholic Church to those unfamiliar with or less attached to the Catholic role in western history.

    MEST has no significance other than what we assigni it as individuals, groups or cultures.


  224. Marty,

    To say I’m playing into DM’s strategy, I can see that.

    Sure that’s one point of what I said.

    But what about those that should have handled DM, but who didn’t stand right up to him, and why was that? That’s a long story, and context.

    Had DM struck me, I’d have lost it, and ended up in jail, I’d have either hurt him, or hurt someone else, or hurt myself, but I’d not have allowed him or anyone swat me, even semi not that hard.

    I wasn’t “fit” or “qualed” for full time Int Base staff, for my private admissions for violence against leaders. It’s all in my pc folders, going back to the L1 sec checks I got on LRH, like everyone got on LRH, back in 1977.

    DM should have been knocked flat years ago, by you, in my opinion.

    I remember that one Sea Org day, seeing DM play a 3 way game of one on one, against you and Greg Wilhere, like 1990 or 1991 Int Base Sea Org day or maybe 1992, and you and Greg were so obviously holding back on playing him hard, since you both are over 6 inches taller than him and had either of you tried, you both could have stopped all of his shots. It looked like you were two subordinates who were playing bad golf games to make your boss look good, and that moment, with you and Greg being DM’s right and left hand men, signaled a long range troubling look at our movement.

    DM was not given a peer to peer growing up, he’s been allowed to be a bully, never had his ass kicked, when he needed it.

    I’ve long wondered just how serious Jesse Prince was, that moment when he held those two loaded guns on DM, and I think you were there at the other end of Jesse’s guns’ barrels, you and Norman and Greg and a few others, with Jesse on one side and you on the other, correct?

    To me, Jesse standing DM and you all off, that moment epitomizes what is wrong with the Sea Org top ranks. It’s the context of how DM was protected, and grew up within the Sea Org, protected by those around him.

    DM’s got everyone ju jitsu’d directing violence at each other, when the bastard is the obvious “who” manipulator.

    But today, however anyone can eject the bastard, legally, without bullets or beatings, I’m fine on that.

    But I myself, was prepared to lose everything, go to jail, ask Jon Horwich, when Jeff Walker was acting like a asshole to the RTRC staff. I was prepared and consciously thinking of pre-meditated felony battery against Jeff Walker, and when Jon Horwich took me in session, pulled that withhold,that I was seriously considering felony battery against Jeff, and I was on the Int RPF in less than two hours afterwards.

    And your admission, in the St. Pete Times videos, of when you witnessed Tom DeVocht being viciously beaten by DM, and you realized you had to pull yourself out of there, or else …… (I interpreted the “or else” to be meaning you had to hold yourself from just blowing up physically against DM, and suffer those consequences, since I imagine you felt like Jesse when he held his guns, and when I was intending to harm Jeff Walker, and I’m sure countless other Sea Org men and women have been driven to think felonious evil battery thoughts against their superiors who were acting ultra viciously.)

    But the LRH policies, are “Individuation” 1959 tape, and LRH’s 1982 “Corrupt Activities” PL about even subornidates confronting sternly an out ethics superior, and “Knowledge Report” PL. It’s LRH’s orders or approval in his 1982 FPRD traffic where he ordered or okayed that the Int Base execs receive FPRD first! It’s LRH’s 1981 or 1982 orders to Jesse to sec check DM. Those are the sane handlings.

    The sane LRH response, is obviously completely opposed to DM’s last two decades of increasing insanity.

    But DM’s doing what he’s done, means a lot of people didn’t do what LRH said to do, and LRH did say what to do with DM! .

    I think his demotion of RTC, and unmocking the Qual of RTC so there wasn’t the atmosphere to even take him in session, and he’s outstepped anyone doing what you intended, namely when you wished to have a conversation with him, like you wrote, before you left for good.

    I think by then, it was just too much a losing proposition.

    I never knew you in the Sea Org, Marty, I think I was too far down the heap, and I recall when you came out to the berthing building foundations in spring of 1996, to pick up Drew Robb for sec checking you were doing of some of the “decks” people at Int at that time.

    I wondered what might have occured, had you sec checked me, at that moment. I’d just finished sec checking by Gerda Herrera and was slated for the RPF, and I was considered a done deal, just waiting around for the months of delay I guess because DM had to approve all the Int and ASI level RPF assignments or something.

    But it takes years to get one’s head around the whole fricking mess, and interpret it all, with some kind of hindsight.

    So believe me, I do appreciate all you’ve done.

    Chuck .

  225. martyrathbun09

    Chuck, I think you are quite confused. For starters, you note: Had DM struck me, I’d have lost it, and ended up in jail, I’d have either hurt him, or hurt someone else, or hurt myself, but I’d not have allowed him or anyone swat me, even semi not that hard. Don’t you realize it was because of that very attitude you were imprisoned in a remote canyon for many years receiving long, daily doses of mind-controlling interrogation techniques? During that decade I had a measure of freedom – and subtracting the relative tiny, miniscule moments of outright abuse I experienced and dealt – I accomplished a variety of rather gargantuan tasks. By focusing on only the engramic, scandalous stuff the media finds so titilating and forgetting 99% of the time, you have developed a warped reality and narrative. It is exacerbated by your apparent inability to evaluate credibility of data. Jesse Prince’s story about confrontation and guns is fabricated from whole cloth, for example. Long, rambling dissertations of “he said/she said” – with no evaluation of credibility of information – creates a universe that bears little resemblance to TRUTH. Nowhere in the Scientology sphere on the internet is that process of evaluation of truth more painstakingly exercised than here. That is why this forum continues to thrive and people obtain something from it that helps them move on and up.

  226. So am I supposed to be the “science” orientated guy, who refuse that very uncomfortable question? Well, you don’t know a thing about me, but in your attempt to suck up to Marty you don’t refrain from inventing and putting those defamatory labels on me. It’s truly pathetic.
    It’s “spiritual being” by the way. I’ve been discovering aspects and consequences of that for many years.

  227. Good for any good you accomplished, and others have said you tried to temper the bad Miscavige was doing, in your final years in, so thankyou for trying.

    Being so further down the heap, realize, us lower down folks didn’t have the luxury to see what Miscavige was doing, and instead we see it coming down at us from all directions (RTC staff and our superiors refering to RTC staff members’ orders), the insanities and off policy orders, that is.

    Anyways Marty, overall I cannot fault you, and have to give you a huge thankyou, for even going public and staying public.

    We all want Miscavige gone, and some major reform, minimally.

    Re the rest you said, not worth your or my time to argue it. Messy further sidetracking details. I never thought myself worth your time to come visit, but someday, if you have the time, in the years to come, I’d like spend some hours with you, but maybe like 3-5 years from how.

    Miscavige gone from his self created role, no disagreement on that, and again, glad your blog is here.

    On people leaving Scientology, I agree with the ultra liberal UN Declaration of Human Rights, which allows people to change their religion without penalty, which allows the few, like me, to return to our atheism and “man from mudism”.

    And thanks for your inclusiveness.

    I’m an old Sea Org admin diehard, very slow to see the futile admin solutions aren’t that helpful when the bigger problem of a tyrant stuck at the top who dictates policy fashion.

    Anyways, media seem overall to be understanding the scene in some respects like never in Scientology history.

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