Past and Future

I’ll say it again –

‘If you tell the truth, it becomes a part of your past. If you lie, it becomes a part of your future.’  – origin unknown

Three and one half years ago after and because of the Tampa Times original Truth Rundown series, the BBC launched an investigation.  In response David Miscavige spent a year and millions of dollars attempting to discredit and attack the Truth Rundown witnesses and intimidate the BBC into silence.   Miscavige rejected my repeated, public advice that ‘If you tell the truth, it becomes a part of your past. If you lie, it becomes a part of your future.’   Notwithstanding, Miscavige no doubt congratulated himself for having had a significant in terrorem editing effect upon the BBC.   Reporter John Sweeney and his producer were apologetic after their one-hour documentary aired.   Too much of the truth they had recorded, and intended to report, fell to the editing room floor at the over-the-top, threatening insistence of David Miscavige’s Scientology Inc. attack dogs.

The result was that John Sweeney decided to set out upon his own to write a book reporting on all that Miscavige had succeeded in backing the BBC off from reporting.   While I have yet to read the book, per Tony Ortega’s account, it contains nothing that has not already been reported upon on this blog.  However, it is international news once again.   Why?   Because,  ‘If you tell the truth, it becomes a part of your past. If you lie, it becomes a part of your future.’  And, if you threaten and bully in order to perpetuate the lie, it can become an explosive part of your future.

What more can I say?

160 responses to “Past and Future

  1. Indeed. Although I guess if Miscavige was to have started telling the truth about all the abuse, fraud, extortion and lies in Summer 2009 he’d still be talking…
    Posted to Tony’s blog this morning:

    Martin Padfield> Sherbet•3 hours ago−
    Well, yes, but you can’t help thinking Sweeney has milked this “exploding tomato” thing just a tad too much to his advantage. And a book? Why yet another book with the same material? Why not a proper new BBC expose on the abuses? Sweeney’s book won’t have the gravitas or depth of Janet Reitman’s or Wright’s new book and will unlikely add much that isn’t well known.

    My question for Sweeney is – what happened with the 2010 Panorama? After endless minutes of preamble about meeting Mike Rinder, complete with trendy airport Arrivals shots that added nothing to the actual story, Sweeney then went on to tell almost nothing about what Mike actually told him – i.e. about the abuses in detail. There was NOTHING in this programme beyond the self-publicising waffle about how he was followed and watched (surprise!). No doubt his defence would be legal advice blah blah but it was still a major cop-out and he knows it. It was left to a journalist with balls, Anderson Cooper, to let rip with the real story on CNN who didn’t buckle under pressure.

    I feel doubly miffed about this also since the day of the 2010 Panorama on the Jeremy Vine show, BBC Radio 2 I was asked live on air, in front of 6.5 million listeners, what were the abuses by Vine. So the BBC had no problem asking the questions, but when given the actual answers by those in the know – Rinder, Rathbun, Scobee and others, failed to mention ANY of it. (Since I had little first hand info about the worst of the abuses my answer was a little “straight bat” – only mentioning personal experience of disconnection etc)

    I trust the proceeds from your book John, will either go to making a proper documentary with the information you already have – or towards the victims of cults themselves.

  2. An excerpt of Sweeney’s book, he speaks about feeling more fear reporting on the CO$ than he did while he was in a war zone in the middle east. Now that’s scary indeed.

  3. Its an excellent Posting. I have had this experience that sticking to truth
    doesn’t hang you up, neither keeps any attention units when truth is said.
    In the sense of whether One should or shouldn’t have said , did , something . admit I wasen’t allways truthful ,but working and practiced ofkeeping
    ethical standards works and showing others also when theirs a need.
    Its healthly.Thanks for the Posting.

  4. Anononyourside

    I left a similar comment to this on Tony Ortega’s blog. I am about 1/3 through the book, and although I have heard most of the stories already, it still left me horrified and chilled. One of the reasons it is so disturbing is that it dawned on me that Miscavige and his complete lack of civilized behavior is reminiscent of the behavior of the worst of the bullies in “The Lord of the Flies.” There was no limit to the torture and abuse in that book. Miscavige similarly has no limits. No adult in their right mind would behave as he does. He’s juvenile and malicious, and he’s in control of thousands of people and millions of dollars. Imagine an evil 13 year old, and you have Miscavige. Sweeney deserves praise for only blowing up at Davis once.

  5. martyrathbun09

    Read my post. I answered your questions.

  6. Tom Gallagher

    The following quote seems to be speaking of the lunatic pope’s RCS operations:

    “Because the regime is captive to its own lies, it must falsify everything. It falsifies the past. It falsifies the present, and it falsifies the future. It falsifies
    statistics … It pretends to fear nothing. It pretends to pretend nothing.”
    – Vaclav Havel

  7. Love the post. Jay Z – not so much. A guy with his pants below his butt hollering “put ya mother fuc… hands up.” Just doesn’t float my needle.

  8. martyrathbun09

    Sorry. Here ya go:

  9. Truth is the only thing that unites us.

  10. Theo Sismanides

    Marty, any John Sweeney wouldn’t know the truth and IMHO wouldn’t care much about it unless there was some sensationalism into it. And unfortunately there is NOT much sensasionalism into truth unless one knows a lot and knows how to present it (like LRH).

    We are faced with a planet that is going down faster and faster now…. The Global Enslavers have managed to control more and more. No BBC or Sweeney would care about the truth being revealed. We had to look into new ways of communicating the message.

    Yesterday it dawned on me as I was watching this video (it’s a long video but it’s worthwhile all the way) that there are so maaaany good people who don’t know about the existence of a thetan but who have understood a lot about life on this planet. I think we should focus on those people…

  11. I would like to send you a private email. Thanks!

  12. plainoldthetan

    ‘If you tell the truth, it becomes a part of your past. If you lie, it becomes a part of your future.’ My own track with Scientology Inc and David Miscavige is that when he worked to destroy my auditing practice and to withhold the benefits of Scientology to my preclears and fellow auditors and then lie about it just convinces the people he offends to make an effort to set things right and put the truth out there. If he wouldn’t harm people and then try to justify the harm by lying about the harm and lying about the people he harms, he’d have many fewer whistleblowers acting “against him”.

  13. And to put it another way: “Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive…”

  14. David Miscavige certainly adds life to”Chucky” B movies.
    I think Im Flat on this joker and degrader Chairman of the Board.
    Only question is how many swords one person can possibly fall on ?
    Sweeneys book without reading it I can recite it like Im Jonny Carson
    on the Late Show wearing a Turban !

  15. I just read the new official statement about you Marty — now you were were never a high official of the Church, just a lowly staffer! I cannot even begin to fathom the stupidity of these word twisting tactics and ridiculous denials. At the rate they are going, they will soon be asserting that you never really existed and you were always just a figment of fevered imagination of disgruntled and hallucinatory critics! Unbelievable!

  16. Thanks Marty.

    Among the “zen graffiti” I have seen around this college town is this: “If you tell the truth you never have to remember anything.”

    This is actually attributed to Mark Twain

  17. A couple of years ago I found an old paperback on the bookshelf entitled Scientific Sophisms ( It had never been opened, so as I read this original edition, it pretty much fell apart turning its pages. It was a discussion of the holes in Darwin’s material.

    Recently I was directed to a book Forbidden Archaeology, by Michael Cremo, a Krishna, that in detail reveals the larger holes of the fossil record and the contradictions of findings on the history of man extant, though obscured.

    I’ve also managed to get through about a quarter of Godel Escher and Bach, a doctoral thesis expousing a materialists view of the possible rise of consciousness, from mud.

    Reading Tony Ortega’s report on John Sweeney’s book, at the tail end of it, I noticed the comment on OT III as a “logic bomb”.

    Ortega has disdainfully expressed his incredulity at the idea of “past lives”.

    It occurs to me that Ortega, Sweeney, Wright, as “serious journalists” have stable data about life that conform to comfortable authority of the establishment and the subject of Scientology rattles these. I can’t help but think of this, from Hamlet;
    There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
    Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

  18. I’m with ya TP! That stuff is not music IMHO……..but that’s what happens when you get old and crotchitty.

  19. Typo alert – should be “expounding”.

  20. I found that comparison silly enough, i.e is Scientology armed?

  21. I pre-ordered the book and it appeared on my iPad right on time. So far it is a very entertaining read. At 5 dollars plus change it didn’t break the bank either.

  22. Brian Culkin

    I think there is a big big difference between between the validity of OT III and the possibility of past lives Jim.

    I personally think the idea of OT 3 is basically absurd at this point as a historical narrative. And irregardless to the problems and holes within evolution from a purely materialist standpoint as posited by Darwin, it has stood the test of time as a guiding template to explain our past. Could something override it? Maybe. Most contemporary scholars of Copernicus thought he was crazy and his mathematics was false. So, of course, revolutionary ideas (that are true) take time to be integrated into world consciousness and reality. OT III as a myth, OT III as a story, OT III as a metaphysical something barely works as that, never mind as history. I personally feel trying to analyze documents from Darwinian scholars to somehow give credence to the OT III narrative as possibly being true is a waste of time. OT III, IMO, is a logic bomb. Past lives, in itself, can not be so easily discarded.

    But lets be fair to Tony O, yes he discredits the metaphysics of Scientology, but I guarantee he would do the same to Christianity or Buddhism. I actually think he is pretty honest about his ideas in regards to this area.

    And yes, Horatio, always the grounded friend has to be reminded from dear Hamlet in the midst of his schiz not to believe everything you hear. Love that line!

  23. I’m about a third of the way through and so far it hasn’t offered up anything new other than Sweeney’s own unbridled personal opinion (which is often hilarious!).

    To the general public, however, much of this will be new, and it’s not pretty. I’m guessing Miscavige will be exploding before the week is out. Like a tomato, perhaps.

  24. I agree, Maria, that false statement is truly mind-boggling. I remember seeing Marty address at least one International event as the Inspector General. Every single person in OSA, who at least packages and sends out these lies, knows from personal experience that Marty held several very senior positions.

  25. Miscavige can continue to lie his way through the media storm he generated himself in the first place, but is there anybody left who actually believes what he says (mostly in four letter words), albeit through his spokeswomen?

  26. martyrathbun09

    Sweeney asserted, “Xenu is a logic bomb inside the Church of Scientology’s claim to be treated just like any other religion.” Quite the contrary, it is precisely why Scientology is in the same boat as any other religion – corroborated by your being offended by the allusion to the doctrine not being historically accurate. Where it potentially becomes a ‘logic bomb’ is to those asserting Scientology as a “science of the mind.”

  27. I do appreciate the intentions of ‘If you tell the truth, it becomes a part of your past. If you lie, it becomes a part of your future.’ but is the whereabouts of Scientology going to be to dictated by journalism – I say Hell no!

  28. martyrathbun09


  29. book after book after book after book. This decade will see 25-50 books on scientology. New public will be as rare as hens teeth. The planet will not be cleared any time soon. And we were short on time to begin with. If one could take all of the churches wealth and somehow convert that into a positive energy for enabling the proper use of the tech and philosophy, there might be a chance. Pray for a miracle.

  30. PreferToBeAnon2

    I don’t believe we know enough about Ortega’s, Sweeney’s, and Wright’s personal religious beliefs to make that comment, nor can we draw what their “stable data about life” is from their opinion of the Wall of Fire. Reincarnation could, in fact, be within their precepts. I don’t care. It’s not relevant. What they are elucidating here is about the OT III material, the abuse, the fraud, the sick spying, etc. It has NOTHING to do with being a “serious journalist” or conforming to authority. If you disagree with their lack of belief in the OT III material, there is no need to go farther than that and make swooping generalizations about professionalism or personal spiritual beliefs. The story is about the Co$, not Ortega, etc.

  31. The OT levels of Scientology is like landing a Jumbo on instruments, and anyone haven’t doesn’t have a clue.

  32. The article you refer to was the letter to the editor published in LA Magazine following their publication of the recent article by Joel Sappell following up his LA Times expose of 25 years earlier. It was a marvelous piece of blather that was signed by Karin Pouw, but which bears all the hallmarks of having been written by Danny (“Mullet Boy”) Sherman, chief word slinger for David Miscavige. That, incidentally, provides proof that Miscavige is micro-managing RCS PR efforts, and thinks he’s having some positive effect there. I can imagine Sherman and Miscavige sitting around with a draft of this and saying, “that ought to impinge on the people at LA Mag!”

    The most interesting thing about that letter to the editor is that many of the usual suspects (myself included) teed off with snarky commentary. I was looking forward to doing battle with some of the OSA bots that try to put positive spin on Internet articles. But… silence…

    There haven’t been many OSA comments on Tony’s blog in the last couple months. Does anybody with any visibility into Pac Base know if OSA has lost so many people that they no longer have the staff to fight back against negative Internet comments? I don’t think there have been a lot of negative stories on Scientology that are occupying their people elsewhere at the moment…

  33. Tango,
    I don’t think there is a Board for the micro manager to be a Chairman of. Now if you mean Chairman of the Bored I think you are on to something!

  34. The first person accounts of Miscavige’s profanity, violence and paranoia and his subsequent denials remind me of the quote, “Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?”
    Truly a walking obscenity.

  35. Brian,
    ” I personally think the idea of OT 3 is basically absurd at this point as a historical narrative.”

    Very well put IMHO!!

  36. Oh Boy!!!! More laps may be in order.

  37. Sorry? I didn’t ask you any questions – those to Sweeney were rhetorical – although I would still like to know if he and the BBC does intend putting out the show he promised in 2010.

  38. I have a golden rule regarding truth, I never forget my wins.

  39. martyrathbun09

    Forget it…

  40. I think it was the fact that Sweeney was followed, stalked, etc for so long that it took a psychological toll which led to his meltdown on his documentary.

  41. Yea that’s all fine but the compaction with real armed struggle is farfetched. There are people out there dying from real bullets.

  42. Much Better!! Thanks!

  43. Very thanks for the quotation, and for the vid too! Very like it 🙂

  44. “Truly a walking obscenity.”
    And that is on the best of days!

  45. Well, I don’t think you’ve penetrated into my logic of referring to Sweeney’s comment of OT III as a “logic bomb”, but you sure are bombastic about it.

    Frankly, I took NO OFFENSE to the comment. I marvelled at the concept of a “logic bomb” being something unpalatable by him, and a similar “logic bomb” of past lives unpalatable by Ortega, in line with “logic bombs” of the history of earth/man described in Forbidden Archaeology unpalatable to fixed ideas of the evolution of human life here on earth.

    But, it’s your blog. You can assert what you will.

  46. Brian,
    I am reading the book Forbidden Archaelogy. It neither argues for or against the OT III story. It merely lays out the data, suppressed, obfuscated, buried, concerning the history of man on earth. It’s a fascinating read.

    I’m up to the Table Mountain, California materials. Evidence of Tertiary man, some 55 million years ago, in the Sierra Nevada Mountains. Homo Sap? Buried in the mountains? Weird.

    The “test of time” of Darwin’s theory has brought in some very interesting data. Forbidden Archaeology is a compendium of a large part of that data.

  47. Precisely my point – that is, my primary post on that thread re Axiom 53/54. The Axioms of the Stable Datum. (My original post here, re the “logic bomb” being a manifestation of these two Axioms in that Stable Data are rattled. It is only a “logic bomb” if it offends “logic”, whether that logic is logical or not. In simpler terms, Ortega’s fixed idea, Sweeney’s fixed idea, are their version of logic in agreement with the established view of life held in the West, promulgated in education and pushed in popular media for example.)
    second (or first) comment:
    P.S. The “science” of the history of man, as described in the mentioned text, is highly suspect. But, you’d have to peruse the book and see the ample, rather astonishing, data re this “science”.
    Contrary to a judgment, “science of mind” isn’t how I personally portray the applied religious philosophy of Scientology.

  48. Yes, Yes,Yes,,,,, I see a small group of Clapping Seals.
    Opening envelope, News years event 2012 !

  49. It’s all interesting stuff. After my experience in Scn I tend to be very skeptical about thus stuff though! Always appreciate your presence Jim!!

  50. martyrathbun09

    Axiom 58: Intelligence and judgment are measured by the ability to evaluate relative importances.
    Corollary: The ability to evaluate importances and unimportances is the highest faculty of logic.
    Corollary: Identification is a monotone assignment of importance.
    Corollary: Identification is the inability to evaluate differences in time, location, form, composition or importance.

  51. Martin — I think you missed the point of the post.

    The REASON Sweeney wrote a book is that he was unable to get the BBC to air what he had put together. He got nothing new from me or anyone else that I know of for his book other than perhaps his trip to Trementina. The documents that appear in the book he tried to include in the program. A lot of the information Marty and I gave him at the time he tried to include but was overruled. Live interviews are always better — you can get out what you want to say and the media are not held to the same standard of due diligence.

    This would not be persisting and he never would have done a book had the church not fought so hard to suppress the story, and thus managed to perpetuate it.

  52. Prefer to be Anon 2,
    I haven’t a clue, WHAT their personal religious beliefs are other than what they have dismissed as other’s beliefs in their remarks and comments published.

    So, what you are on about here isn’t relevant.

  53. Yep, that’s sure true for me 🙂

  54. “Lady” Mags McNair, now a Sea Org member, was on an OSA recruitment drive in the UK recently. I don’t doubt their numbers are dwindling – not just OSA but everywhere.

    Take Narconon, for example. Increasing reports of utter incompetence, ignorance and betrayal. A body count. A rising body count. Violence. Sexual abuse. Drug use. More lies. More cover-ups. No responsibility. They’re running on empty, and the few left manning the machine I’d imagine to be the most zealous, unaware, conditioned-responsive DMbots this side of Target Two, who care more about stats, income and appeasing CO(MF)B than giving a shit about the person in front of them.

    Too little butter spread over too much bread, only the butter’s rancid and the bread is mouldy as f*ck.

  55. John — you have duplicated the world of the RCS precisely. Only slight correction I would make is that the first “draft” of that letter was culled from dozens of pages of Miscavige rants that were transcribed. Someone then tried to sort through it all and make it comprehensible. That was impossible, so the mullet was called in to turn it into Shermanspeak(r). I know this was dictated by Miscavige as only he has the ability to put forth the “big lie” — ie that Marty Rathbun was never part of the international ecclesiatical management of the church.

    So its clear to everyone — this is tricky-dicky Miscavigespeak. Technically, as defined within Scientology, RTC is NOT part of “international ecclesiastical management” which is the job of Church of Scientology International. RTC sits ABOVE CSI.

    The irony of this is that while Marty Rathbun was not technically part of international ecclesiastical management — NEITHER IS DEAR LEADER. Though he of course is “the ecclesiastical leader of the Scientology religion”….

    It’s amazing the bubble he lives in. He actually thinks this is a clever and really “works” as a “D/A” of Marty. But except to himself and his sycophants, it is utterly absurd. That is putting aside the point that Marty DID NOT tell Joel Sappell what he wanted to hear concerning the death of his fog (and for the record, he also asked me and I gave the same answer as Marty, not knowing what Marty had said to him). Miscavige attacks Sappell about his “dog story” and should have been saying “and EVEN Marty Rathbun didn’t support your theory” but instead, in his obsession to try to destroy Marty’s credibility anywhere he can (and every time he opens his mouth he gives Marty MORE credence and himself less) he comes out with his “he was never in any senior position.”

    I can hear Dear Leader now telling anyone who will listen how brilliant his PR handling is. He is NOT telling a lie. But he is “interpreting” the facts to D/A an SP.

    He is truly becoming more clueless as each day passes.

    It sucks to be Miscavige — every day a little worse.

  56. P85, for the most part, unfortunately, I find your comments frequently, relatively inscrutable. I THINK this one means that absent actually doing the Levels with full and proper gradients of set up in place, then one “doesn’t have a clue”.

    I may be mistaken in my attempt to interpret this remark though.

    But, my own reality on the materials was nil until I did the gradient set ups, and under the care and competence of my CS, actually did the auditing to full results.

  57. Yo Bro,
    I’m with you on the abundance of stuff, and a healthy skepticism.

    Here’s a snip from Chapter 5.5. 7 in this book to give the general idea of the presentations it contains.

    “Indeed, we find that when all the available evidence Is considered Impartially, an evolutionary picture of human origins falls to emerge. On the one hand, If we apply the tactic of extreme skeptiCism equally to all available evidence, we wind up with such an insufficiency of facts that It becomes next to Impossible to say anything at all about human origins. On the other hand, If we take a more liberal, yet evenhanded, approach to the totality of evidence, we are confronted with facts demonstrative of a human presence In remote geological ages, as far back as the Eocene, and even further.”

    Hey, totally disrelated, BUT, when I get my house done, you come, hang. We laugh and philosophize. I’ve got a buddy from Denmark that I hang with, you’d like him and he you. I think 🙂

  58. Johnny Mathis – that guy is smooooth! – thanks

  59. Dang, miscopied, it should be “impartially…FAILS to emerge.” The random capitalization is part of the misdup in the computer copying function.

  60. Right, Jim.
    There is lots of things the “contemporary archeology” will omit just because it doesn’t fit into the status quo “criteria” bubble.

    The british museum for example hides the most part of the “sumerian records” from public view. Interesting?
    I those records we find the first mention of the Arc of Noah, The creation of Adam and Eve (and the snake) story, Kain and Abel and lots of stuff we later find in the bible.
    But this is just an example, though these records alone could possibly change our world view significantly.

    There are tons of topics archeology doesn’t even touch.
    How for example the ancients did this:

    Here some pictures on the site:

    And what for did the ancients need a compass rose in Nazca?

    (Actually not too far away from Puma Punku.)


  61. When I saw the so-called Executive Director Internationl get on Cooper’s show and lie though his teeth, I knew that there was little, if any hope for the so-called church of scientology.
    When I saw miscavige’s vicious response to Debbie Cook’s factual write-up of obvious out-points, I then agreed the so-called church of scientology was in fact dead, deceased, no more, expired etc.

    Imaginary and/or exaggerated witholds extorted from parishoners to be used as future blackmail against anyone who dares tell the truth about miscavige. That is about the extent of this miscreant’s power. His own, and the lies of those around him will be their future.

    No one could be expected to fully grasp the relief of nailing a service facsimile in a grade IV session, unless he actually was set up for the session and did it standardly. How can we expect any real understanding from Sweeny or Ortega when they are rivited on the deception and maliciousness of the so-called church of scientology? Handling a service facsimile or the gains available from OT III are not even vaguely real to them. The evil and lies emanating from dave and his cult are very very real. And miscavige is doing everything he can to ensure these lies continue.

    I wonder how successful those of us who are interested will be in having the workable aspects of the subject continue into the future despite guys like miscavige who seek to destroy it.

  62. EnthralledObserver

    Fear is an emotion, not a physical reaction. The fabulous Mr Sweeney felt fear from the enormous amount of insideous and very deliberate psycholigical pressure put on him by Scientology’s minions in an attempt to squash or derail his investigation and report. He obviously wondered, quite rightly, where, if at all, they would draw the line to protect their position. There was the potential for harm other than the physical impact of bullets at stake here.
    For you not to comprehend this, as a Scientologist yourself, astounds me. For all Scientology’s touting of ‘thetans’ and ‘immortality’, it would seem that ‘death’ frightens a great deal many of you, and I for one find this ironic to say the least.
    And it begs the telling: each and every one of you Scientologist have been trained in these tactics used by Mike and Tommy D… lets all hope you use them responsibly and understand the harm that could be done should any one of you decide that your own welfare or cause ought to come above another individual’s.
    I sincerely hope I’m not censored again, because I know this will appear a little aggresive, but I’ve seen plenty of dialogue online by Indies about how ‘reverse scientology’ exists, and how about we all consider if maybe this might be a more overt example of this, and that it is readily taught to all Scientologists to apply at their discretion.

  63. Some excellent posts today.
    I am observing that when a human being is bullied, cajoled, humiliated, ambushed, persecuted in any way, it seems to be that a blow back occurs sooner or later. In other words a person settles the score even if it is such silent withdrawal of support.
    There was a day and time when people were fearful of the big Scientology mafia thuggery.
    But as more spills out on the web the deception and lies is less and less covered up and …well the chickens come home to roost…
    It is the age old story. Someone or some organization “will save the world.” End crime ! End the Abuse ! Make things better for all the population ! Just give us your undying support and in this case, “Don’t
    read the Internet !”

    The story and image is seductive. Who does not want a better world ? But the eye is on how much $$$$$$ will you give for a so called “better world?” Pay for your better world today ! Pay for your better world before Thursday 2pm.

    Will that be Cash, VISA/MC or AMEX ?

    PS Mexico was denied Religious Recognition today. Scientology Inc had been working on this for a while…
    Translation of a Spanish opinion piece posted on January 7, 2013 on the website of the Mexico City daily newspaper Excelsior:
    Cienciología aquí, no…
    Scientology in Mexico, no …

    by Enrique Aranda
    January 7, 2013
    Just days required for the new government, in an undeniable display of craft (sensitivity) politician, off the threat to the establishment and preservation of a healthy and stable relationship with the churches, particularly the Catholic, representing the process for grant registration as a religious association to the misnamed church of Scientology, had open-and even encouraged, one might say, his predecessors PAN.

    Through a letter dated December 3, actually, and even though the respective notification was not made until a week before Christmas, the Directorate General of Religious Associations declared “inadmissible the application for registration as a religious association, promoted by Church Scientology (Scientology) in Mexico “, in his capacity as president and legal representative thereof, Alma Rosa Lugo Anzaldo presented.

    Use your Google translator to

    Now how will they spin this ? 😈 😈 😈 😈

  64. Marty,
    I know this is off topic, but the Church’s response to the La Times quotes you in relation to your job performance etc.
    I automatically assumed these ‘admissions’ were extracted under duress.
    What was that all about?

  65. The CoS has become scary, even to a good deal of those still in. A news reporter walking in the front door, intimidated by quite influential beings including executives and celebrities, confronted and videoed, investigated by who knows all, followed tirelessly, confronted and mind fucked by Davis, I get it.

  66. It might not be as far fetched at all.
    Going into a war zone as a reporter is dangerous, but it might not be as hard mentally as a reporter isn’t the main target – I mean, they aren’t specifically aiming for the reporters, so a reporter doesn’t necessarily feel like a target. Being a BBC reporter is to some degree a protection, though not against bullets or granades.
    But Sweeney definitely was hunted, specifically, during his time making the programs on Scientology. It must feel different knowing that they are after HIM, specifically and relentlessly, like a pack of hounds after the fox.

  67. Portland85
    Maybe it helps to look at it from the other’s viewpoint:
    In a war zone you steel yourself for the event of bullets, you are ready for whatever.
    To get followed, harassed in a democratic country CAN be scarier than the war zone because it is so unexpected as a behavior. I think Sweeney was quite honest on that point.

  68. EnthralledObserver

    Er… no. Sweeney was referring to the fact that Scientology ‘hides’ their belief in Xenu, unlike other religions who are open about their beliefs. If Scientology were intended to be the helpful philosophy it wishes to claim, wishing also to be compared equally with other mainstream religions, then it would be thoroughly transparent about its beliefs and not lie about them. Scientology lies, therefore it’s not helpful.

    Only the truth can set you free…

  69. It takes guts to speak the truth, when it goes against the grain of lies pushed out by David Miscavige. There is a ground swell of people who have done it, and are doing it — and Sweeny speaking out — despite knowing the potential ramifications from Radical Corp Scn, gets my thank you.

    Marty, Mike, Steve Hall, the Headleys, Jeff Hawkins, Amy Scooby, Tom DeVocht, Debbie Cook, Chris Guider and many others have spoken out. Whistle-blowing on the abuses is THE way the lid will be blown off the pot of Miscavige lies.

    i came to life the day I said “No More!” and spoke the truth – no matter the ramifications. There are so many others putting their shoulder to that wheel – on public media lines, on blogs, in books, or just speaking out to their friends and family. And every person who follows suit — to blow the whistle on the lies they have observed — and point out the truth — puts themselves (and others) on that Road to Truth.

    Miscavige is so delusional, his life is a lie. He creates, weaves and builds the most intricate lies imaginable and works to foist them off on those around him, at lower echelons, to the public,to celebrities, to media and more. And worse still — he is convinced that his lies are the truth.

    And as per the Axioms, this will be his undoing. He is, and will continue to get, stupider, and stupider and stupider as a result. Soon he will have the intelligience of a doorknob — or maybe he has already achieved that…

    Mike is so right. It sucks to be Miscavige. His lies are his future.

  70. Smith, Marty’s email isn’t that difficult to find. How does he respond to this if you don’t include your own? (That always boggles the mind to me.) Or, you could post yours…

  71. PS. Sorry Amy for misspelling your last name. Whoops! Won’t do that again!

  72. Jim,

    Maybe I’m missing some of the finer points of blogs and blogging, but my perception is similar to yours. I cannot say at this point whether Xenu existed or not – there have been more improbable things than Xenu right here on Earth. The vehement denials enforced by Government and Church on pain of death by torture, that the Earth orbits the Sun, are an example of what consensus opinion can lead to. Stalin in Russia is another example. It is for certain that one day a Scn Auditor will run a PC on a death in a gulag – no matter how bizarre the actual real-life circumstance may seem to the average Americna shopping for bath linens. There are those who question a literal interpretation of the Bible, today, but I don’t see ridicule being heaped upon the allegory, or the fact, as is being done in the press with Xenu. Breathroughs do rattle cages. What is clear to me is that regardless of yes / no on the historical accuracy of OT III, the level does produce the stated EP (End Phenomena / results), and importantly, one must be willing and able to create in one’s own universe the processes, as described. You can get someone who insists the material universe does not exist (too much Leibnitz or whomever), but if you can get the guy to run basic havingness processes, then you can get the desired results (one of which may be the astounding cognition for that individual that the material universe does indeed exist).

    You, yourself, might argue that while we have some notion that the material universe exists, we don’t really actually precisely know exactly, exactly what we’re talking about: is it quarks, or energy, or particles .. or what? Is a dimension point a particle? And when we talk about light, are we not talking about the inherent nature of God’s Creation which is common to us all? I’m sceptical about drawing from other fields to “throw light” upon Scn, as if that were necessary to understand Scn.. Scn is a science, and if it prompts the individual’s curiosity to search “outside Scn” for “more complete answers”, then that does not make Scn defective in any way. Indeed, that is the anticipated result.


  73. Excellent summary Lana. You can observe Miscavige becoming stupider by the day — the statements that ooze out of the church in response to the latest expose are a perfect measure of how much he is losing touch with the real world and increasingly existing exclusively in his own universe, surrounded by sycophants and molded by his conviction of his superiority over all the other “small thetans” who cannot see things the way he does. His latest attempt at “positioning” Marty by use of “clever” terminology is utterly laughable and everyone sees it except him…

  74. Exactly – overt hostility vs. covert hostility.

  75. threefeetback

    Another “big lie” of the DeMon is that he is relevant to the current scene on plant Earth. In a world that thinks and operates in trillion dollar economies, the DeMon controls a few billion. This, by definition, means that he oprates UNDER the radar. Although the actual Scientology basic concepts being suppressed could benefit all 7 billion alive, the DeMon operates as a lowly gang member setting off firecrackers on an unknown backstreet while claiming to get a lot of bang for the buck.

  76. Mike,
    IF the Religious Technology Center is NOT part of ecclesiastical church management as DM claims (and therefore Marty has never held an executive position), then what does Miscavige do with the hundreds and hundreds of binders of “COB Orders” into every single area of church management – micromanaging, and cross ordering? How does he get rid of the clear evidence that is in EVERY staff member’s drawer – that it is COB RTC that is calling all shots? And not just recently — but from the early 90’s through to now? That is more than 20 years of his ramblings – distributed by his team of secretaries!

    His orders are at Int, at middle management, at Flag, on the Freewinds and at every Sea Org base. In fact — I would not be surprised if they are also in every Idle Org in each staff member’s hat packs (he is that conceited/stupid he would order that his own orders would be included in every hat pack).

    Wow — the project to cover up these tracks is going to be a difficult one. Even for someone who considers himself a genius – NOT.

  77. Thanks for the nice find on Scientific Sophisms!

  78. There are esoteric data in many fields, including religion.

  79. I haven’t heard anything about this years event. More straight down and vertical?

  80. Precisely.

  81. Lana,
    I think the door knob has him by a few notches!

  82. CommunicatorIC

    Perhaps of interest to people here. Perhaps not entirely unrelated to the current post because the following deals with the subject of “Truth.” From Tony Ortega:

    Nancy Many’s Life in Scientology Dramatized on January 16 Investigation Discovery Series

    “Scientology: My Eternal Contract” is the title for the episode.

  83. Tom Gallagher, thanks for finding an appropriate quote from a poet who knew oppression and terror in his homeland..

    “Captive to its own lies” applies so well to Miscavidge’s church scam.

    Havel is one of my heroes. As a poet he could find resonating words to describe injustice. Elected president of Czechoslovakia, he knew tyranny and did as much as humanly possible to stop it in his lifetime. There is a Prize for Creative Dissent established by his wife in his name out of an institute for freedom he founded in New York. Rather than singling out one individual maybe someone should apply for a prize for the large group who brought down the COS through creative dissent over the years. The blow up is not a fact yet but will be very soon.

    As an aside my mother always said don’t lie as you just have to tell more lies to cover the first one up. She also used to say liars need to have really good memories or they forget what was a lie and what was the truth.

  84. P85: ever heard of ‘psycho terror’ or psychological torture?

  85. This is SO true, Karen. And bullies seem to have a blind spot about this. They seldom “see it coming” even though it will follow like the sunrise follows the night. In my experience bullies regard kind, tolerant, “nice” people to be stupid, naive, and weak. They think that “mean & ruthless” = “intelligent”, “clever” = “wise”, and “use of force to overwhelm” = “strength. ALL bullies are secretly in fear or they would not be bullying others in the first place. When “weak” people are pushed too far and fight back, the bully’s terror comes to the surface, he gives out irrational justifications, and eventually cuts and runs…..IF he can still walk at that point after waking “sleeping giants”.

    Each of us is a giant. If these bullies could just understand that it is so much easier, happier, and effective to just be a kind, tolerant, and nice person……

  86. EnthralledObserver: I have to correct you on one point though: fear is not only an emotion, but as well a physical reaction. And it can be a very strong physical reaction too. Any emotion has a physical component.
    The word ’emotion’ comes from ‘e’ and ‘motion’. Meaning that which puts in motion. What? The body, the mind.
    Any book on physiology will tell you that.
    And, if there was no physical reaction, how would it read on an e-meter?

  87. Indeed Mike – I do get that, and thanks for the civil response. I guess my beef here is because having grown up 50 years with the BBC as being fair minded but also tough when needed – they haven’t shied away from some pretty thorough investigations into other corrupt and sinister outfits – they obviously buckled under pressure in this case. Now don’t forget also that as a license-fee payer I part-own the BBC; there’s no adverts, it is entirely funded essentially by the UK taxpayer.The confidence in the BBC here is at rock bottom right now anyway, as there have been a number of cover-ups internally regarding paedophile activity with some presenters, notably Jimmy Savile. I have made my views known to both the BBC and John Sweeney personally, and it’s not a big deal in the great scheme of things – just disappointing. I have a feeling that the new Channel 4 documentary on Scientology due out this Spring will be a lot more “no holds barred” and thorough.

    On the matter of DM coming clean, that will happen when hell freezes over. As many others have noted – he has sealed off that avenue of redemption a long time ago. He knows better than anyone that telling the truth now – even a tiny fraction of it – would result in many years of hard labour. The truth will have to be yanked out like a tooth extraction.

  88. Certaintly Well said and I agree.

  89. The ref is pretty good and nearest to reality that one can have a stable datum to work with. If all beleive or not. .Its whats real and what you
    yourself see for you, without eval or any prejudgment.

  90. EnthralledObserver

    Does fear read on an e-meter?, Does it always? I have read many testimonials of ex-scientologists that have claimed that whilst feeling worried or afraid whilst connected to the e-meter, they’ve ‘gotten away’ with not having it discovered and investigated. I can’t personally offer any opinion or data, having never even seen an e-meter, so I can only rely on others to answer that question for me.
    As for fear being both emotional and physical – sure, fear can originate a physical reaction, but they are two separate entities. Fear ‘can’ instigate a physical response, but a physical resonse doesn’t insitgate fear. That’s how I see it, anyway.
    As for the origin of the word ‘e’ and ‘motion’… carpet contains both ‘car’ and ‘pet’ but neither of these things have anything to do with ‘carpet’. However, I will look up ’emotion’ to see what I can find. 😀

  91. Well put must say.

  92. Have to second your comments on BBC, myself being british reading and listening to the scenarios daily.
    Love your last para re Dm, my view is it would have to be a mighty big tooth digger for what he has to come clean on.If that ever will happen,
    If at all , or likely we see him dragged down when things get to hot
    for goverment to control or something seriously happens to this guy which perhaps in due course he knows its coming. One thing for sure
    is. He certaintly does not Know what Intergrity is or Justice.

  93. Gern Gaschoen

    But Brian, materials from OT III and above have never been even proffered as Historical narratives by anyone in Scientology.

    The materials are merely descriptions of a Facsimile on the whole track, which is not a historical track of the physical universe, but one of the Theta universe.

    LRH merely described the Incident as it may be found being dramatized by the PC (in this case, BT’s..) It is the PC who believes this all happened on Earth 76 trillion years ago and if that is their reality, then that is the context from which the Incident is run.

    There may well be a point on the track when we discover that the entire Incident is just a recording from some implant machine further down the Track, and in fact a careful student of Scientology may well find that its not, at all, relevant whether or not it is a historical ‘truth’ or not – what matters is the Reality of the PC while they are In Session.

    It is mainstream culture which associates “LRH’s Dogma” as being an attempt to construct a Creation Story, but LRH never said “this is the Creation Story of Scientology”. This is always implied. It is Christians – or those influenced by Christian thinking in society today, applying their own morals to the subject of Scientology, who do attempt to make Xenu out to be Adam and Eve .. and in so doing, miss the point entirely.

    Stories, an entirely Theta product, are the way out from, and the way in to, the MEST universe ..

  94. Read “Science of Survial” by L. Ron Hubbard for a thorough definition of emotion and its origins (sources) and manifestations.

  95. Mike, it amazes me that this dwarf will continue to lie that Marty was never in a senior position within RTC. The good folks at Why We Protest posted these pictures of Marty when he was Inspector General.

  96. Your confront of evil is good. Thank you.

  97. DM simply thinks its ok to lie. and makes it Open aswell..
    All one needs to proove the evidence of the position Rathbun held with documentation photo’s which many have and indicate that and I suggest
    it gets rubbed in their Noses. He gets others to lie for him and then they
    get screwed for lieing and black PRing his IMAGE
    This women Pouw needs to Wake up. Who the hell did Dm think it was then when Rathbun was working with him Hallo !!! Its a weak Joke.
    Any lawyer asking for evidence to proof pther than Fact, would think is
    DM sick to think of trying to Blank this. It becomes so blently obvious that what ever lenght it takes for Dm to use and get others to cover for him and by what ever means regardless what ever fuck’s up along the way Dm does it. It just shows nothing is impossible for him not to try.

  98. And “Psychiatry: The Industry of Death” in Hollywood (setup by the “church”) is a psychological warzone if there ever was one.

    Talk about an “implant station”. The manipulation of the truth is mind-boggling in that place, complete with colored lights, darkened areas, manipulated images, and full-on attempts at overwhelming someone with an implanted message. It’s pretty twisted.

  99. The man is psychotic to say the least.

    It’s been a while since there’s been any discussion on how the detainees in ‘The Hole’ are being treated. I remember reading that after the SP Times expose in 2009, that the 100 or so execs that had been imprisoned in those trailers were given ‘better’ treatment as far as being given three square meals(not slop-in-a-bucket) and actually sleeping in beds, instead off a cold floor. Heber, Starkey, and the rest are still being held against their will. Tony Ortega interviewed Heber’s brother over a year ago which he quoted that Heber told him that he would never leave the base alive. America is way to hands off when it comes to religion. If this were any other country like Russia, the authorities would have raided that compound a long time ago and freed those people.

  100. Here are even a couple of other links that were posted in the comments/responses to the “church” letter to LA Mag:

    Of note, these quotes from the RTC website from 2004 are a perfect response to the church claim that Marty was “simply a … staffer”:

    Mark Rathbun is a member of the Board and the Inspector General of Religious Technology Center, which exists to monitor and safeguard the orthodox practice of the Scientology religion. …

    In 1987, Mr. Mark Rathbun became a director of the Religious Technology Center. …

    Working alongside Mr. David Miscavige, Chairman of Board of the Religious Technology Center …

    The Shermanspeak response is just laughable.

  101. Hi EnthralledObserver,

    Yes, Sweeney was referring to the fact that Scientology “hides” it’s OT levels data.

    Of course, if Sweeney were really being honest with himself (and interested in being logical), he would admit that materials just like OT III are openly shared with Scientologists throughout Scientology’s materials, e.g. “The Whole Track lectures”, “History of Man”, which discusses past lives on other planets, Marcabian civilizations, other universes and even “injected entities”. You only need to spend a few bucks (on ebay) to get those supposed “secrets” revealed to you, with regard to Scientology’s esoteric concepts.

    And indeed, the public information on OT III clearly falls into the “logic bomb” territory that Ortega/Sweeney have a problem with, namely a mention in the widely distributed (to Scientologists) RJ67 lecture about OT III which mentions the “galactic confederacy 75 million years ago … made up of 75 planets, including Earth”.

    Frankly, Sweeney’s argument about Scientology “keeping its most esoteric secrets” is an old, easily disprovable one. There are in fact FAR MORE esoteric concepts in publicly available lectures by LRH.

    With regard to the “logic bomb” of what supposedly happened on Earth “75 million years ago” … well, that’s a personal call. Personally, if it’s true at all, then my guess is that LRH was referring to the devastation that took place on Earth just under 65 million ago, when the dinosaurs were extinct.

    As for the other details of OT III … I’ll keep my additional commentary to myself for now.

  102. Since their appears to be No update exactly twhat the position
    whether the ” Hole exists or not, If remove completly rumour was it
    was removed ? If so then theirs no evidence one was in there
    As you say if this was within Russia theirs no way that would have been allowned to vester and maintain, any one in would be out, and any one that took part and created it would be investigated and the action taken, its per control and abuse of peoples lives.

    One has to ask’s what is America Authorthies actaully doing about those that are not known where they are, if in a hole in some other location somewhere else. I repeated many times before What are families with love ones doing to support getting their love ones out of there, and spreading the facts of whats happening there.

    Its uncomprehendable any family is not coming forward to question the where abouts of their love Ones and using the media at lardge to support their efforts. Mistery beyond Mistery. .

    The ” hole ” did exist, since Cook made it known in court you would have thought this worm would produce more action regardless of her going in hiding, She produced some results But its now and whats happening now?

    Its like its taken off the radar to be forgotton , then Dm annouces it never existed. Will the truth about those within ever be known, Who knowns.

    DM’s relative family member Ronny having left must know more than he wishes any one to know or only have icberg circles of contacts .
    As for Heber if he made that comment he will not leave the location alive , he obviously excepted that even to mention it, .
    Dm is responsible for holding people if that is prooven he is doing this
    why the fuck doesn’t the authorthies do something , You have to wonder has Diana said the same thing. Its say the least ..

  103. Fear can read on a meter, but not always. What reads on a meter is what the person has on the cusp of his/her awareness. There is a state of “almost knowing” something. The meter helps the auditor and PC uncover it.
    The meter is a tool that shows changes in the PC’s body. As the disclaimer says, “By itself, the emeter does nothing.” It is just sending a current through the body, an displaying the result on the needle dial if the auditor has the needle on the dial.

    The ex-Scientologists may claim to have beaten the meter, or gotten away with something, but really, they just beat the guy reading the meter and asking the questions, not the meter itself, or (more likely) they were completely uncooperative.

    What is happening when someone is being “interrogated” using the emeter? It is not the same as what the Lie Detector people do. Actually, a lie detector is a crude emeter, not the other way around.

    Someone who is completely unwilling to cooperate with someone “sec checking” him with a meter can just sit there and shut up. The meter can read on certain questions, maybe, but there is no confirmation or corroboration. All the interrogator really knows is that the meter did something when the question was asked. The “why” is unknown.

    For example, take a question like “Have you ever eaten a cat?” You could get a reaction to that question. But what is the reaction? Is it because they really did eat a cat? Is it because they are offended at the question and that anyone could assume they have eaten a cat? Or perhaps it is because the thought of eating a cat is repulsive to the person? or maybe they misheard it as “Have you ever beaten a rat?” All you know is there is something there. And by the way, there IS something there. It is not “oh. nothing.” But, to really know, you need to work with the person in a cooperative way to find out. If the person being interrogated is not cooperative, then you never know.

    The only thing an interrogator can do is say they did not cooperate.

    The emeter is not a lie-detector, and real auditors never use it that way.

  104. I’m with you Portland. I mean, really, Cussing wimps. Sure, “psychological warfare!” This is the wimpiness that makes people think Scientologists kill cats, Jews run Hollywood, or the turbaned guy is a terrorist.

    People can manufacture fear. Sweeney was in an unknown place talking to someone openly hostile to him, and it scared the shit out of him. But, if he had been taken prisoner by the “enemy” he was covering in the Middle East, he probably would have wet the floor and came out of it without his head. Even Miscavige has not decapitated anyone. Keep it real, people.

  105. IMHO the lie is that the issues most all of us have with corporate Scientology started with DM. Any reasonable person evaluating the data would come to the conclusion that DM is not the beginning of the chain.

  106. Well thats intresting.
    I however experienced misuse of integrity processing and it was known
    by me others were aswell and some keyed in and went straight into fear mode, and were invaluated for and invalidated.
    Never mind about being honest , but truth wasen’t ack’d but suppressed to obtain only one Ep , Later found out to be ordered by DM “Get the rock slam ,and don’t come back until you do ” Yes.if an honest auditor can read The meter it doesn’t lie
    Its how e-meters and misuse of actions of results from meter reads were abused I am one that experienced many occassion.I certaintly challenged those who did abuse towards techincal processess that I was very weiry of
    the application.


  107. Anononyourside

    Are you saying that the Church of Scientology is making the OT III documents available? I don’t think the church put it online or eBay, and I doubt a current parishioner will go to eBay or online to find it. Sweeney is correct, the church is not making available these “secrets.” Whether someone can find it elsewhere is not relevant, the church spent millions bringing lawsuits to try to prevent this information from being disseminated, and it still will not allow the legal release of the OTIII material.

  108. Having “secret doctrins” is nothing new.
    Sweeney can ask the Catholic Church for access to the Vatican vaults. The vast majority of Catholics don’t even know there is something like that. So what.

  109. DM is a motivator. If so, it begs the question, “What was the overt?”

  110. EnthralledObserver

    If L.Ron Hubbard gives a definition of emotion and its origins and manifestations, that’s all well and good, but you can’t expect me to take ‘his’ wirtings seriously. I much prefer ‘proven’ sources. Probably get more reliable ‘truth’ out of Wikipedia, for the sole reason that it’s up for public scutiny and can be ‘corrected’ if found lacking. Here, is L.Ron EVER found lacking? No… is the answer, and any ‘logic bomb’ is explained away by personal interpretation. The man has no credibility in my eyes because his supporters aren’t willing to be critical of him or his work, period.

  111. DM is a motivator. If so, it begs the question, “What was the overt?”
    Being there and communicating.

  112. EnthralledObserver

    “Actually, a lie detector is a crude emeter, not the other way around.”

    That’s some claim. I’ve seen a show on youtube where an expert claims the exact opposite. Now who am I to believe? Truth – as elusive as ever in Scientology…

  113. EnthralledObserver

    Sweeney has been detained by ‘hostiles’, and his assertion is that he didn’t experience as much fear as during that time with Scientology. So your suppositions are merely your own personal opinion.
    And again, I find it exponentially ironic that ‘fear’ has been associated with only ‘injury’ and ‘death’ by a Scientologist who claims to have a ‘thetan’ to back him up again and again and again – to us mere mortals there is much more in life one might fear than death.
    To put my own opinion in it – I find it enormously frightening that CO$ has been allowed to flourish within civilised society and flout all their rules without question by the authorities. This means that at some point in the future I might encounter an L.Ron work of literature in my local library – Now that’s some scarey shit!

  114. E-meter or not, PTSD is the perfect example how long term physiological terror has a direct effect on the physical well being of a person. Stress in the mind translates to stress in the body. It manifests differently for each individual, but the result is the same. Physical terror. What is so damaging about the terrors of the mind is that there is no resolution that is easily obtainable to the subject of the terror. When you are faced with physical stress, it’s mostly black and white to the end game. Long term this is damaging. Emotional abuse, which Sweeney was directly subjected is something else. I’d love o go on, but there are a plethora of sites, documents and pros to use as reference rather than little ole me. (Not an excuse, I just know where my expertise ends. However, as a someone recovery from psychological PTSD, I have a great deal of compassion for those who suffered similar experiences.)

    EO, note I thoroughly enjoy your thoughtful comments and dialogue. And I hope Marty and Mike keep the site open to many viewpoints and civil debate amongst all readers/posters. 🙂

  115. EnthralledObserver

    Whilst that may be true, it’s not the point. The beliefs are what we are discussing here, not some indepth data or anecdote from history that probably has no impact on what are or are not the core beliefs of a faith. Did Kirsty, Leah, Juliette, Anne or any other of those Scientology Celebrities admit to learning about Xenu, let alone believing it? NO – which smacks of the fact that they were told to keep it quiet, and lie about it. Deception at its very core.
    Concurrently, if you asked somebody in the know (who had done the research, etc) about the esoteric data from those other religions, would that person deny it and lie… or would they be happy they’ve found someone else who is interested and is happy to discuss it? Probably the latter I’d wager.
    Unless, of course, we are discussing data that is hidden because it has the power to lose the church/religion/beliefs credibility… and in which case is wrong no matter which religion we are discussing. One doing it does not mean the other has the communities blessing to imitate. Essentially, if a religion is hiding such data, then it just proves that it is a scam intent on deceiving it’s congregations (their income streams) until they can safely rely on their flocks’ indoctrination to protect them from the ‘entheta’.
    You can’t really deny this – anyone who has never been in Scientology and hears their Xenu story call BS straight away – that’s if they can stop laughing. It’s only those who have been ‘prepped’ who swallow it with no need for proof.

  116. Hi Anon, I’m saying that there is much wilder stuff than OT III, that is publicly available in “church” of Scientology bookstores to anyone that wants them (or ebay if they wish). Claiming that the church keeps the “wild stuff” till after you’ve paid buku bucks is simply false. (Not that I’m defending the CoS … but it’s simply a false statement.)

    Basically, if anyone thinks that ideas from OT III are at the “core of Scientology”, then they are simply mistaken. If you don’t grok what I’m getting at, then check out this link from a few months back:

  117. Have to agree on the last para .It just doesn’t Yell.and misrepresent Standards of the Codes of Scientology and Scientologist/

  118. Gern Gaschoen

    Well, this is a very interesting point, and I will answer it for you from my point of view: the Overt is simply, requiring Authority in order to be, more or less, Responsible for something.

    Those currently propping up the Usurper and his Minions have committed the overt, time and again, of needing someone ‘special’ to do some job. A desire for an “expert” in some way, encoded all throughout their daily lives. Its the same mechanism that makes entire nations of people sit on their fat asses, worshipping their favourite physically-hard-working Sprts Stars/Celebrities/etc.

    And since current Church staff, hardly studying a damn, have so many MU’s on LRH, and Scientology, the computation sits there, requiring some form of “expert who knows all this stuff already” to guide them. LRH provides that in his works and all throughout Scientology, but the aversion from irresponsibility of assigning Cause to others is simply not strong enough, in the Church today – because its not strong at all in Society, at large, either! LRH warns, time and time again, that the “Assignment of Cause To Others” is a terribly aberative activity; there are reams of Policy about taking responsibility for the Hat you are wearing, and so on.

    This is why I say that we are dealing with a Cleared Cannibal scenario in the Church today – Church staff are easily enamoured by ‘professional experts’ in some field who ‘know all about subject X’, or whatever, without seeing the farce for what it really is. Since others are more causative, they can be less so. Do you think Class VI Org staff want to take responsibility for the mess of LRH’s personal archives and writings being scattered over the Universe – no, they don’t, and thats why its a ‘great thing’ to have an ethereal Sea Org Unit doing all the hard and difficult, potentially disastrous work for them. Its the same computation where, when someone gets Declared SP for some reason, people are ‘glad they are off the lines finally’.

    This mechanism is being exploited by the Usurper and his Minions, who know full well – having had a great deal of assistance from military studies of this effect – how you can control an entire organization by getting people to assign Cause to others, over and over, until eventually the Infiltration Team are at the tip of the sword, and not the pointy bit, alas.

    Treat the problem in the Church for what it is: a manifestation for the same disorder which enturbulates Society; the worship of others for being more competent/capable/better than Self, such that Self can stay, essentially, glued to the couch by way of ass ..

  119. Good one but with all due respect it’s a cop out.

  120. When all is said and done I believe DM is the product of a failed organizational system. That is what needs confronting and unfortunately, I suspect, no one could confront LRH on that point, especially toward the end. Don’t get me wrong, there is a tremendous amazing, workable admin tech developed by Ron but something went off the rails otherwise we don’t end up with DM. Maybe the “overt” was that Ron, in his final years, cut off the one person who could go toe to toe with him: MSH. As a result we we ended up with DM. I can look the other way on a lot things but I can’t fathom why he apparently disconnected from MSH. Remind anyone of a very famous LRH policy?

  121. You say apparently LRH disconnected from MSH.
    What evidence support’s this. ? The man was ill They met thats for sure.
    The private talk she last had in and around hemet must have been arranged
    through a via as its known he asked to see her.
    I am sure who ever knows this , then would have seen her come and enter /
    and leave, and whether he /she / or more than one knows remains unknown

    Aswell a point to place in question is, it depends if the meeting was monitered
    without MSH’s knowledge , or if a witness of that meeting is knowing what
    went on, But for sure Dm knows even if he would have lied the results
    Only to to get her out of the way, and also under what ever state LRH’s
    condition was at the time.
    If LRH was in self control state of mind It just wouldn’t have

    eifvidence is known only to Dm and who arranged her to meet LRH.

    wasen’t ( she is not here to ask)

  122. Jim, I’m responding because I am familiar with Table Mountain from vacations as a kid. That part of California is highly volcanic — Mount Lassen, to the north, erupted in the 20th Century. Table Mountain is volcanic in origin, and (according to Wikipedia) was created in eruptions 14 million and 39 million years ago. Fossils are not found in volcanic rock, only sedimentary; this raised my skepticism. While there may have been sedimentary layers that were created between eruptions of the ancient Table Mountain volcano, it seems unlikely that human remains would be easily found (if they survived) under multiple lava flows from a large ancient volcanic event.

    Because of this skepticism, I did a little research and found this article rebutting the authors of Forbidden Archaeology and the specific claims made in a TV broadcast around the time of the book release. It documents specific acts of fraud and identifies the individuals who committed that fraud in placing supposed fossils at the site. It appears that the book is connected to a group of fundamentalist Christians attempting to “sell” their views on “young earth creationism” (i.e., that the earth is exactly 6,000 years +/- old, not billions as most scientists and many observant christians believe).

    People often forget that science is a very competitive field. Nobel prizes, according to two people I know who have won them, confer great fame and power, as well as a fair amount of money. They’re worth fighting for, as are many of the other rewards of science. There is no “suppression of the truth.” There are no vast conspiracies. Conspiracies take an awful lot of work, far more work for the scientific community than just focusing on doing good science. There is only the process of checking and re-checking each other’s work; anything that stands the test is likely (but not always) going to be good science; anything that doesn’t stand up to criticism from peers is unlikely (though not always) going to be bad science.

    The scientific community is willing to entertain some fairly far-out stuff. String theory, first proposed around 1969, sounds fairly bizarre to students who learned the Bohr model of the atom (high school stuff) and even to people who know something about quantum physics. In the interim 40 years, a lot of money has been spent on exploring the competing versions of the theory, despite immense doubts from many physicists. It is only in the face of recent results that have negated key predictions that string theory rests on, that the theory seems to be on the brink of fading. That argues for a strong willingness of the physics community to consider fairly outside-the-box theory and to invest significant resources in exploring them. No grand conspiracy to suppress the string theory people there.

    More generally, if you find out something interesting and you can prove it according to the standards of science, it will eventually be accepted. It might take a while, and it probably won’t be easy to win acceptance if your work overturns established beliefs. The story of Dan Schechtman, who won the 2011 Nobel in chemistry for his work on quasi-crystals is illustrative: he was ridiculed when he put his theories forth originally. But he persevered, kept delivering more and more evidence, and eventually his work was accepted by the mainstream and he was massively rewarded. That’s what happens if you have valid work and stick to your guns. Eventually, if your work is valid, people seeking solutions to their own problems will be motivated to look at it, and if it works, to embrace it.

    People who allege conspiracies and coverups are typically either lousy scientists or are attempting to justify a belief that they feel competes with science. Most scientists would tell you that faith and science are not incompatible, by the way; it’s usually faithful who feel threatened by science and who need tangible proof of their religious beliefs that are the problem.

  123. In my opinion, it wasn’t the organizational system that failed. What failed was that it wasn’t held by those who were entrusted to follow it.
    Any system might fail if it isn’t followed as it is supposted to.
    DM isn’t the product of a failed organizational system, he is the product of a failure to strictly follow the organizational system that LRH created.

  124. Anononyourside

    Thanks for the clarification, I grok.

  125. Dear Enthralled,
    Hit the road. You have NO intention to find out truth about Scientology.If you did, then you would read books by LRH which is the source of the subject. The man was a prolific writer so it isn’t hard to find Scientology books written by him.

  126. What failed was that it wasn’t held by those who were entrusted to follow it.

    Then the system for picking those entrusted was quite flawed.

  127. Maria, that is how OSA operates exactly: denial denial denial for the purpose of nullification. Everytime I see a movie about government or corporate corruption, I see the same pattern and can only compare to the church.

  128. “You say apparently LRH disconnected from MSH. What evidence support’s this??

    None which is why I said apparently but there is no evidence I’ve heard to disprove it either. About the only people who can tell us now are Pat or Sarge and neither is talking. What we do know is that LRH entrusted a 24 year old, unexperienced punk to be the sole conduit for data to him in his last years. The result of that, among other things, was the destruction of the Mission Network and the birth of the Finance Police. Anyway it’s somewhat of a moot point as either way we ended up with DM and I for one am sick of people blaming “those entrusted”. From what I’ve read that’s the same game DM plays.

    I have a very high regard for the Old Man but I suspect he might agree that he dropped the ball and Scientology is paying for it big time all these years later but it is likely too little too late.

  129. Yes. I would say that the fact that Scientology has a creation myth (myth definition relating to truth, not a lie) places it in the religion category. And, I personally get tired of the denial of what is already known about it. Christianity has the Adam and Eve and serphant story, and then there is Krishna et al, and many many stories of creation. They are all strange upon first encoutering them, so what. Ours is no stranger, but no one will bring that up. At least the Scientologist denying it could say it is ‘symbolic’ if they think its an overt to mention it at all. But, this constant insistence that it doesn’t exist just makes all Scientologist look like ignorant liars.

  130. Margaret,
    You are right that the there are LRH tapes and books which go into whole track stuff, and then there is the Axioms which have their own ‘wow’ factor, and then there is 8-80 and 880-08.The Reasearch and Discovery Series has some great wild stuff as well.

    However none of those books, including the processes contained within, need a security clearance because those processes are not intended to run out the 3D engram, and those materials do not specifically state stuff that is stated in OT materials, so there is a difference. The fact is that to Scientologist who have not done the OT levels the material is ‘secret’ , and even talkig about specifics to others is forbidden. You can’t access it until you are at that level of the bridge, so from that perspective, he is right.
    Furthermore, you know as soon as something becomes ‘mysterious’ it becomes more enticing to most thetans, and certainly to the media and general public. Look at all the interest in the Vatican and the Templers etc due to the DiVinci Code. People are really intrigued by ‘secrets’.

    But of course, all religions have ‘mysteries’ or privledged information.
    If the ‘spokes people” like the Celebs at CC in Sweeny’s interview would just fuckin admit that there are materials which are taught at various levels of the bridge regarding that story and they are not for broad public info, just like other churches, then it would be more understandable and truthful.

    Also, whoever allowed those mateials to go viral (in the 70’s it was printed in the San Jose Mercury News) did a big diservice to ALL Scientologist. It was an SP action to do so as it only gave a huge problem to the church and to make Ron look like a madman. The policy on these materials is very clear. Ron was not about to tell people to openly discuss it, nor would he have allowed a compromise of the policy. That isn’t my personal decision of how to handle information once the cat is out of the bag, as there should be a new response to the subject, but now the church is damned if they do make any admittance and damned if they don’t. 🙂

  131. Yep, I agree. Doing Scientology training and auditing does not answer every question about everything…it does, as Ron always said, provide a workable system. From my experience is does make one more aware and gets rid of the accumulated unwanted masses. Science is science, and is amazing, and finding datums of comparison to Scientology is possible and having a rich understanding of life as a Scientologist and Physicist would also be interesting, if not useful. In the end, each is defined by its own terms.One does not need science to prove what one knows of Scientology and the reverse is also true.

  132. Thanks for your view Kevin
    Yes I agree to a part the Ball was dropped, He allowned Dm
    to talk and undermind him and make others weak and wrong so Dm looks
    good in doing so, then Dm strikes to steal from him at his weakest when
    and nhe lieing to be able to remove Susi that she didn’t see him any more,
    makes you think of game plan what was planned.
    those working with him were blind and they and LRH didn’t see what the
    fuck the staff in CMO were doing some being inexperienced young ones ,
    didn’t meet the grade. or stand up to challenge this idiot Dm.
    He Dm must have lied through his teeth, to steal the hat and Had a game
    plan to lie alter com’s and then remove any threats that got in his way
    People . Yes LRH I am afraid wasen’t seeing , or to ill to in the end who the
    hell really knows the facts as they rolled out . Pat doesn’t speak, and he
    knows , However any one that Pat worked close to at that time would know
    it they weren’t blind , or not -ised what they saw, because of an idiot of
    24 years Dm.
    Pat he alone doesn’t hold all the key facts , but the main key factors
    of what he saw ,along with DMayo and company /Pat most certaintly
    didn’t operate working in silence. Pat lives with what he knows, and DM
    lives with that Fat overt and the rest that followned after for the rest of his
    life.I have a very high regard for the Old man myself too I worked
    personally with him and knew his family well. He was not a Saint, or a God!!!

    Who is Serge )
    they distance from each other,
    Bait waits to move in , right chance when that occurs Dm strikes, removes
    Patand Annie Broeker

  133. Gern,
    Good post as to the point of auditing on OT3! Lagree with your perspective. Does Ron say- Here is the whole story on the creation of the universe?? No. It is a drop in the bucket, but one which is significant. Also, relating matters based on a time stream gets really sticky as science is evidence based. What can be found physically is evidence. What is experienced is useless unless it can be proven with physical data. My physics professor completely puts down the idea of aliens anywhere and the idea of past lives…and from a purely scientific frame, he is right…where is the evidence, let alone proof?? But , from an OT who has ran lots of track and by doing so has increased my awareness from running out past identities etc, I know that evidence of ‘the truth’ about our origins will follow experience every time– not ideas, but experience. Big difference.

  134. It is what it is. That it happened is a shame but speaks to the fact that DM was the product of a flawed system. Time to move on up a little higher.

  135. Jewel, The specific point that Sweeney was making is: the wild stuff is kept secret until you pay a hundred thousand+. It’s simply not true.

    With regard to the idea that the releasing of the data being an SP action … Ron actually wrote a script (“Revolt in the Stars”) in the mid-70s that is basically the OT III story, and was shopping it around Hollywood in the later 70s to see if there was any film-making interest. There have been some first-hand witnesses to this who have come forward, and in fact, a copy of the script was even available on ebay a couple years back.

    So it seems the confidentiality (of at least the *story*) is not that large of a concern, as it turns out.

  136. Gern Gaschoen

    LRH warned us, time and again, that he was going to become a bigger target for attack by external agencies as he built the upper end of the Bridge. There were many, many warnings that we had to build the Church organization in a way that the subject of Scientology would not suffer for it.

    I don’t think we did a good enough job – when LRH was captured by the enemy, sequestered away, and drugged – hardly anyone noticed. There was *too much secrecy* due to the organizational overts and witholds of the time, and not enough real production occurring that would produce the trained Auditors we needed to get the Org really built up.

    Int Management has *always* been a frail stack of cards .. because of its secrecy.

    Also, there are countless real examples of LRH policy that was designed to prevent the DM-disaster being ignored, completely and 100%, in the name of a stat push. We didn’t catch this, organizationally – but per the Green on White, we really, really should have.

  137. Gern Gaschoen

    DM is what happens when you stop using Scientology and start using something else. Plenty of Green on White would have prevented it occurring; if that were actually being applied!

  138. Gern Gaschoen

    Simple example: what are DM’s stats? Has anyone asked this question and gotten a standard answer? Case in point.

  139. The system LRH set up produced DM. It is empirical.

  140. Right on, Jewel.

    Let Enthralled Observe continue being enthralled somewhere else! The way he “filters” what he will give his credibility to and what he won’t indicates a person who is not able to look and think for himself – he has admitted as much: “The man (LRH) has no credibility in my eyes because his supporters aren’t willing to be critical of him or his work, period.”

    What an absurd and illogical standard, a pure unthinking reaction to group think.

    E.O., if you have no interest in knowing WHAT LRH said and discussing the pros and cons of that, what in the world do you think you have to contribute on this blog or any blog or site that is centered on discussing scientology, which was codified by LRH in the first place?

    Certainly you are welcome to filter what has credibility for you any way you wish, but don’t be too surprised if you are sometimes laughed out of
    town for your inability to look at a subject in spite of what others think!

  141. “This means that at some point in the future I might encounter an L.Ron work of literature in my local library – Now that’s some scarey shit!”

    Ths is so obviously pure “fear of the unknown”. How in the world can you be proud of that?

  142. Your mom was right on. Here’s a quote of Mark Twain; “If you tell the truth you don’t have to remember anything.”

  143. Jewel, the scientology “creation story” would be the Factors and the Axioms, not the OTIII materials. And these are similar to the creation story of the Rg Veda of Hindu teachings.

  144. John P.,I think what you wrote here is exactly the point: “More generally, if you find out something interesting and you can prove it according to the standards of science, it will eventually be accepted. It might take a while, and it probably won’t be easy to win acceptance if your work overturns established beliefs.”

    What in the world are “established beliefs” doing in the world of “science”? Beliefs have to do with faith, science supposedly has to do with an investigation into the truth of things, an attempt to look at the way things really are. Science can develop hypotheses, theories, and methods of testing these, but it has no business elevating theories to a status of “must be believed or else ” articles of dogma, to then be taught as such throughout the public schools, for example. Science ought to be taught as methods of inquiry, not as carved in stone conclusions. I think this is largely what Jim is speaking to.

    Let me say I do like your post for its detail, thoughtfulness, factuality, and its clear depiction of the way things actually work.

  145. DM is the product of his own postulates, or of postulates he has adopted as his own.

  146. Margaret,
    Oh, I see your point in terms of the general idea of ‘wild stuff’, as I said, that is all over the place. The thing that these guys don’t get, or refuse to get is more to the point, is that it is the processes that are kept under wraps until one is ready to use them. Inside the church, we are not allowed to view those specific materials until ready. I had to sign stuff regarding those materials. Since the only information they are harping on regards OT3, they think that is the ‘end all’ of Scientology. Although, again, in the Church it is made into the big deal. I was really excited walking into the course room! It was great, but different than what I expected (that is a whole ‘nother subject.

    I would tell these reporter guys that the subject isn’t condensed down to that piece of information and if one had to say what the basic “scripture” of Scientology is, I would say that it is the fact that one is a spiritual being who is immortal and leave it at that. But, there really isn’t any as-isness to be obtained with an attack mode journalist. I thought Marty and Mike did a great job with Sweeny, but in the end, he still interrupts things in a predetermined way, evidently.

    The fact that LRH wrote the Revolt in the Stars is not the same as allowing people to have the processes or give them the story as a piece of truth. Not having read the manuscript, I don’t know what details he put in, and what he didn’t , but I have never thought that the story was anything to hide. Ron gives out a lot of information in layers. DMSMH can be understood on several levels depending on one’s prior knowledge of other data just as in The Nature of a Being. The Mission Earth Series and Battlefield Earth replay and foreshadow life on earth, so he uses story telling to promote some truths. Of course, if any of us used the exact OT3 story to sell a book, I think he would have had a cow!

  147. @Valkov, yes, I stand corrected. The OT3 story would just be part of the myth. I was thinking of the stories about Krishna, Rama etc.

  148. @NewComer and Brian,
    Are either of you 0t3 or above?

  149. I do not agree with this. I believe DM was what he was before he became part of LRH’s “system”. A born person is not a blank slate. Plus, he did not join the Sea Org until he was 16, by which time I believe a person’s character is already formed.

    I think both nature and nurture play a part in a person’s character. Beyond that is the dwindling spiral any human is subject to.

  150. However Ulf, if you mean that Sea Org members were not rapidly trained up as auditors and processed up through Clear and OTIII, then I agree, it was a failure to follow the system as it was supposed to be. Given that DM reportedly flunked out of the Academy at St. Hill for striking his pc, I’m not sure what his chances of making it were, but the tech was available to process him to a better state, for starters.

  151. Perhaps DM could be characterized as an “Ethics practical”?

  152. Thanks Jewel, for tolerating my bluntness! I am trying to work on that, (when I remember to do so!)

  153. I haven’t done the level, but my understanding is – it’s not he data that is hidden so much, as the exact procedure for running the charge of whatever the incident is for that particular person.

    The whole concept of the Bridge is that it is set upon a gradient from easier to harder, so the majority of people can do it without hitting a wall or gradient that is too steep for him.

    If you are familiar with psychoanalysis, the principles of psychotherapy, or clinical psychology pra\ctices, then you know a therapist must always use his judgement in estimating what the patient or client is capableof dealing with at any given time in his therapy.
    The same principle applies to auditing.

    It doesn’t “prove” any of the pejoratives you try to lay on scientology. And it has nothing to do with psycholgists or other therapists fearing a loss of credibilty.

    Really, why don’t you educate yourself?

  154. Pingback: Past and Future via Moving on up: “If you tell the truth, it becomes a part of your past. If you lie, it becomes a part of your future.” | Theta Networker's Scientology

  155. Pingback: Past and Future via Moving on up: If you tell the truth, it becomes a part of your past … | Theta Networker's Scientology

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