What More Can I Say?

There is an interesting little undercurrent rumbling through the “Independent community.”   It is peppered with lines like this:

“Something has changed with Marty recently; and I don’t like the feel of it.”

“Marty has all the sudden stopped making a stark distinction between Scientology Inc. and Scientology.”

Rumor mills – generally energized by the not so bright false data prone – have embellished and alarmed it with bells and whistles.   All the way to the recent Chicken Little claim in the comments section of this blog itself:

…Tony Ortega has taken over the blog.

To highlight how absurd that conclusion is, though I haven’t spoken to (nor read much of his writings) in months I bet Ortega fell off his chair laughing on that one.  He is more frustrated and perplexed by my criticism of his views than he is of Scientology Inc. propaganda about him.  Incidentally, that Tony Ortega line, along with several of the others circulating were first published on OSA anti-Marty sites.

To all of you who are getting on the back channels alarmist rumor mill bandwagon, I suggest you are in denial.   To those actively fueling it, I suggest you are cowards.

I published a book almost a year ago where I made my views – that are not dissimilar to those expressed on this blog of late – about as crystal clear as a person can make them.  Those blog views are consistent with what I took the time to lay out in context and with supporting history in my book, What Is Wrong With Scientology?  That I am not a robotic, lock-step follower of Scientology has been made clear in the continuously posted Welcome section of this blog since its inception.  I haven’t heard a single comment on the blog, or even in communications directed to me or relayed to me that challenge any of those views, at least not by the very best Independents now covertly fueling the alarm wave.

I am beginning to express them more often in posts in the hopes that it will prompt some thinking and exchange of ideas and views.   I am not seeing much reasoned debate with them.  Instead, I am seeing Scientology Inc. style undercutting, back biting, rumor milling, questioning of the source of views.  The dead agent caper.  David Miscavige and OSA are having a field day with this coffee klatch mentality.  The big shots originating it are, at best, oblivious to the fact that they are doing the work of Scientology Inc.

To those engaging in such, and energizing and forwarding it,  is that Independent Scientology?

It is not what I considered Independent Scientology to be when I suggested people declare their independence from Scientology Inc.

The thrust of the backchannels chatter is “Maybe the guy who coined (or as freezoners assert, re-coined) the term Independent Scientologist doesn’t qualify for membership.”

Your views?

418 responses to “What More Can I Say?

  1. People have accused YOU of taking over Ortegas blog too, lol.
    Why not just ignore this bullshit?
    You could upload a video of Jesus Christ parting the waters onto youtube and the first comment would be; “That guys a douchebag.”

  2. Claudio Lugli

    I think that you picked it up at the right moment.
    This was getting a bit too weird…..
    You have always been straight forward in your views and ideas.
    One can agree with those ideas of your or not – are your ideas.
    I find your blog very enlighting, especially after years, more decades of censorship and lies.
    It does no good to no ine to fera the truth or to exchange ideas that can be challnged by someone else or “out of line”.
    Who cares!
    We are not here to conform again.
    We are here to get free once and for all and if we use the subject in an intelligent way possibly we eill make it.
    We can dive back again into the Inc. mentality and forbid reasoning, disagreeing, and what have you or using our free jusgment decide what is right or what is wrong for us.
    You have helped thousands of people with your actions and me and Renata are one of those you helped.
    We are proud to be your friends.
    Share your views
    Do not restrain please, I like you the way you are.

  3. Truth is truth and the way out is the way through. If people don’t confront what has gone on in the past — while also distinguishing between the subject of Sciejtology and the acts of its people/organizations then there is little hope for Scientology as a subject or Indie Scientology which will just become what Scientology became — a facist state.

    As for the subject of Marty. I know him to be a free thinking person. He’ll discover the truth for himself wherever he finds it. I also believe (my opinion) that when he hears too much coo cooing he is sometimes apts to throw the odd cat amongst the brids to see what happens.

  4. It seems to me highly indoctrinated people fear discussion, fear challenge to the status quo, fear questions, fear criticism, fear non-black and white thinking. Life is full of grey areas and this seems to be the reason many people cling to guns, god, cults, whatever simplifies the matter. .

    Among many rigid Scientologists, many of who call themselves indies, it seems if a question can’t be answered with a LRH quote then it shouldn’t be asked or if you can’t answer a question with an LRH quote then you don’t have the right answer.

    Regardless of Marty’s views on anything the fact he is trying to start engaging discussion with his posts and is opening his comments to many points of view tells me he is more secure and self-confident in his thinking and beliefs than majority of people, and most especially some of his critics.

  5. This is one of the most cogent observations made on this blog.

    Among many rigid Scientologists, many of who call themselves indies, it seems if a question can’t be answered with a LRH quote then it shouldn’t be asked or if you can’t answer a question with an LRH quote then you don’t have the right answer.

  6. My view:

    Something has changed with Marty recently; and I like it.


  7. Haydn — I could not agree with you more.

  8. Here is my view: I started to study Scientology through the “Church” many years ago. I had wins in auditing, became an auditor, worked as a staff member and helped disseminate Scientology.
    One of the biggest things I got out of my involvement with Scientology was the feeling (sometimes real, sometimes imagined) that I was helping other people.
    As the years progressed things changed inside the “church”. And I changed.
    The church became more and more controlling, there was less and less compassion. The stated purpose of the church was to help make free beings. It became clear that this changed as well. From my view the intended product became something else, something evil.
    For a long time I mistakenly believed that I was the one at fault, that it was me who somehow changed and that I was evil.
    Marty, I see you as someone who had the guts to pull the covers back, to expose the inside of the “church” so others could see what was going on. Reading your blog and books, reading the comments of thousands of others on your site, as well as the sites linked to your blog, I have learned many things.
    My view is that your efforts have helped countless people understand what Scientology is about, how the church went off the rails and for me anyway, re-energized my purpose to use the tech and help people.
    I admire you immensely for your efforts. Yes, I have heard snarky comments about “What is Marty’s agenda” and such. One thing I can say for sure is that I have never heard any negative comments from those who have met or worked with you these last 8 years…
    This planet has many good things going for it. And there are many areas of suppression.
    Its easy to sit back and be critical of others making an effort to set things right. You know, “they did this wrong, or they said this poorly”.
    To all of those people, would say this: quit quibbling, get busy being creative, help people, go help fight against inequality, or against wars, go be cause in a positive way making earth a better place to live.

  9. It seems to me that this is a double edge sword. I would tend to think that this is anything but a suprise. After all is this not the exact things that were done to the enemies while you and most of us were in? Being on the recieving side is much more unpleasing then on the giving side. Weather right or wrong. Is it hard to live a life that others admire and respect. In this day and age I would say yes it is. Thus we are left with doing and acting in the best mannor we can. Staying consistant is hard. I have learned this being a parent. It does come with gains though and thus is worth while. I’m not trying to tell anyone including you Marty how to act of behave. That is a choice that we all make on a daily basis.

    I have said it before and think it bears repeating. I like you Marty, as a human being. I consider you a friend and respect your search to find your truth. Does it align with my truth? sometimes yes sometimes no. I’m okay with that. we are all peers here and I think that you understand this.

    I would love for you to met my family and spend the day fishing with you and your beautiful wife. That, to me, is the best kind of therapy anyone can ever recieve. Well, that and good food, drink etc. our door is always open.

    I would rather spend one day as a tiger then a lifetime as a sheep.

    cheers Dylan

  10. Marty, even some of those in the indie field have not shrugged off the cloak of rigid, closed, highly evaluative, their right thinking. More directly stated – their case shineth through before they do.

    There is a whole big wide world to explore and experience and many things offer great spiritual growth. Since I have been out for 27 years I have explored a few. One in particular that i feel takes OT abilities to the level promised in COS but never totally delivered. This doesn’t take anything away from the wonderfully beautiful tech, but when i have tried to share this with other Indies, it was if I was blasphemy’g LRH and all of scio and squirreling. Oh, so sad.

    Scio gave me me wonderful tools and helped me to live life more fully and completely. But I learned that scio can be a limiting box and a thetan to be truly unlimited cannot live or evaluate life from a box.

    Time to step out of the box. Congratulations, Marty for stepping out of the box.

  11. PS you stepped out a long time ago and truly are your own man. Thumbs up from this camp.

  12. Marty –
    -Your book “What is Wrong With Scientology?” was packed with truth and solutions. I was amazed at how fitting these solutions were. It’s very helpful in that it provided new stable data to align the new confusions.

    You have been driving the oh-so-withholdy David Miscavige nuts, and he’s pulled out all the stops to flood the field with rumors that by OSA survey, might be picked up by “Indies” (positioning you with Ortega is a favorite).

    I think we are looking at the question of tolerance, here. There are a lot of people who just can’t take the betrayal of the church of DM on LRH, on them and on the legacy. So their refuge becomes “purism” (fundamentalism). “We’re going back to the ‘pure’ LRH tech that was there before RTC.”

    These obviously did not read your book to full conceptual understanding.

    And since many are too lazy to evaluate data for themselves, that stable datum will continue to align their confusion, even though it has little or nothing to do with the truths put out in your book. Because that is -not- the conclusion of your book, at all. To some Indies, you may not be feeding their need for the “old days – simpler times,” nearly enough.

    Overts (including the overt of omission of failing to do your homework on the actual background of Scientology, now that you know something’s very wrong with it) make one FALSE-DATA PRONE. These are the ones who will feed these ‘whisper campaigns’ on the rumor lines.

    And the more uncomfortable truths about LRH himself come out (and more and more of them will – whether from you or others), the more defensive this line of thinking will get. It’s called ‘denial’ and every religion has gone through it.

    Marty, whatever your shortcomings and past deeds, you have been one of the kindest and most effective facilitators of the process known as “Seek to Live With the Truth,” in respect to all things Scientology, and I thank you for it.

    You have granted beingness to a wide variety of viewpoints, including the fundamental right of a thetan to LEAVE A GAME (quit being a Scientologist) if that’s what they choose. This exposes you to ridicule from OSA and they get agreement from the intolerant fundamentalists who remain so, in our group. Fellow Miscavige-haters, but not recognizing others’ rights to be ‘pissed at the old man’ for a while, or to look into ‘other tech,’ or just go off and live life and try to forget about it. These do not understand the pain of disconnection ripping their families, and just how insanely painful it can be.

    Some people just don’t want to see an e-meter again, ever (at least for a while!)

    Because for Scientologists who gave the best part of their lives to LRH’s organizations, to find it was all so very shockingly different from what they thought it was, this is a very explosive and emotional topic.

    Many, many people who would otherwise remain alone, introverted and hurting, have come together as a result of the community that has been formed here.

    We may not come to agreement on all things – especially on the question of the founder’s life and actual role in all this, but we are at least a whole lot more educated and have more sane stable data to evaluate the rest of that with.

    We know beyond a doubt how utterly criminal Miscavige actually is and how far off the rails he took the church. How far from honoring the Human Rights that LRH championed, that he really is.

    The answer to your post is that the “Great Middle Path” you point us to, is not always in harmony with the agenda of the emerging fundamentalists.

  13. Marty, I know for a fact that Scientology is not complete. It just isn’t. There is an incredible amount of value to it, incredible tech that can be used to help people, and a lot of wisdom. However, there is a lot of craziness, as well. But, as a subject, it is not complete.

    How can there possibly be an “end” to something? What do people expect the end result of OT VIII or whatever to be? The whole idea of a bridge is that it is a structure to cross from one place to another. If you stay “on the bridge” forever, you never arrive anywhere!

    The big question to me is, what do you do once you crossed the bridge? Scientology gives you some structures and building blocks and basics to use, but it does NOT tell you what to do.

    But I do know what to do: Live. Be alive, and inquisitive. Observe the world and participate. Understand the people around you. Get in communication with them. Empathize and be compassionate. Continue to grow.

    In this context, Scientology ends up being a platform from which to rise into greater heights. In fact, I consider myself a “post Scientologist” more than a Scientologist, because I am now living life and using Scientology as my core, but I am not restricting myself to it. I have found wisdom in the Bible, Zen, Yoga, Tony Robbins, business books, “The Secret”, Mormonism, Islam, Judaism, and Beethoven. Different views make for a stronger understanding, and allow us to fill in the gaps, or realize entirely new realizations. Scientology: “Knowing how to know.” I mean, Hubbard studied Korzybski, Crowley, Freud, Schopenhauer, and Dale Carnegie. Not that I need a license to survive, but I never heard Ron say “Don’t look!” Nor did he get upset with people who did.

    I have defended KSW several times on this blog – it can easily be read as extreme, but it is not, really. There is an incredible amount of wisdom in that PL. One that applies here is “Thetans without banks have different responses.” People only agree on Bank principles. We are seeing that here.

    Independence means independence – not from the church, but as individuals. I am (and always have been) free to make up my OWN mind about not just Scientology, but everything. It is called “Freedom” and, yes, independence. So, two main mandates come out of this:

    1. We have to trust ourselves and our perceptions, reality, and judgement.
    2. We have to trust each other.

    Overall, I think we are doing a good job. But there have been some interesting debates.

    Marty, thanks for putting this together.

  14. This could be likened to a process. Going from Corporate Scnist to a free independent thinker is not going to happen overnight. Everyone will experience that their own way, and it can take time.
    When I see comparisons to Tony Ortega (associative thought), I just see the Tone Arm moving. Those guys will get through it, provided they are given the time and space to do it.

  15. “To all of those people, would say this: quit quibbling, get busy being creative, help people, go help fight against inequality, or against wars, go be cause in a positive way making earth a better place to live.”

    Right on! +1

  16. My view is Your assiting with keeping the blog users up to date
    and lots of people obvioulsy like this I do. You, and many others
    try to communcate out what went wrong in scientology and Your books
    also makes it clear . I think a lot appreciate you and Your company freinds do to make it a better place. Thank you thats my view.

  17. Marty, I am very happy you brought this up, thank you. There is definitely a noticeable increase in decibelage lately. The reason for the enturbulation is very simple, in my opinion: you are creating the noise and upsets by stepping into the boots of the Independent Scientology leader and then refusing to walk very much. But you walk some, confirming the fact you are wearing the boots but you don’t do the required minimum of walking. Sometimes you seem to be in denial that you are even wearing the boots or that we even need a leader. I keep hearing that we don’t need a leader. Bullshit.

    For example, this paragraph from your post: “The thrust of the backchannels chatter is “Maybe the guy who coined (or as freezoners assert, re-coined) the term Independent Scientologist doesn’t qualify for membership.” is not written by the Leader. It is written by a small-time back-biter stuck in lower conditions and a so-so Scientologist at best as it FRAGMENTS the movement into (A) those privy to your backchannels chatter and the majority who aren’t and who are now uncersain what the fuck is going on behind their back and it further attempts to separate Independents from the despised Freezoners. Any act design to fragment or weaken the movement is an enemy action, especially 1000X so coming from the person held up in the highest esteem as the leader of that movement (I am not saying at all that you proclaimed yourself as the Leader but your actions made you so in the eyes of the others).

    Furthermore, you put forward your 31 Factors, a major, monumental document that guides us in many strategic and tactical ways as it lays out the concept that Scientology is different from the Church of Scientology and presents exact targets within the Church for our attacks. Great! But that was never followed with the definition of the Independent Scientology or Independent Scientologist, never took a broader view. For example, do Independent Scientologists militantly oppose any deviations from the Tech which is N-O-T 100% LRH and N-O-T 100% workable? Are we all supposed to be like Jim Logan or are we allowed to have a brain? A vital question in my opinion. I left my brainless stupidity in the Sea Org 7 years ago. If Independent Scientologists are unquestioning zealots, count me out.

    Fighting DM is needed but it is hobby-horsing. It is a MINOR thing that is happening. If he wasn’t being propped up by all the attacks, he’d probably collapsed already. He’d already blow to the Caimans.

    So basically my beef is that you are enturbulating the field by not wearing your hat. You told me some 3 years ago that you didn’t want the hat. You seem to still not want it. Fair enough. Then announce the fact publicly. Better yet, face up and just wear the hat and start with creating the unified front.

  18. Rusty Champion

    Every Great Spirit, will experience vile opposition from Mediocre Minds! 🙂
    (Albert Einstein)

  19. I wrote that on your blog a few minutes ago. I had not seen it anywhere else or written it anywhere else. It was not meant to be literal and I wasn’t being hateful or below 2.0.

    I did have a suppressed origination:

    “Something has changed with Marty recently; and I don’t like the feel of it.”.

    I didnt get it from others, it came from my own gut.

  20. Gary Morehead. Aka Jackson


    All I can say to this, and really am willing to contribute to acknowledge even a little bit of this crap is going on is, I am willing to bet there is an abundant amount of “Pie Face” goin on during the duration this post is at the forefront!

    Jesue folks, if you believe this crap, I got a “Bridge” I can sell you in Gilman Hot Springs
    David Miscavige himself has pissed from!

    Hayden my friend, you couldn’t of said it better!

    Now, back to living my truthful life!

    — Jackson

  21. Good advise, think for yourself.


  22. There is the distinction between Scientology as a subject (philosophy) and the way it is distributed and managed. The subject also can be devided in different subjects (therapy, organization and management, philosophy (including the ultimate goal of Scientology).

    There is also a distinction between the practitioners or students. There are Scientology adepts who think only within the concepts and the terminology of the subject. For them it is the only possible paradigma: the absolutionists.
    Others are able to think with Scientology as subject, are able to think from more paradigma’s. They decide for themselves what use they make of it.

    Is Scientology a means to an end or an end in itself? That makes a huge difference. The difference between ‘thinking for yourself’ and being a fanatic who stopped thinking, who can easily fall into the trap of ‘the end justifies all means’. Scientologists will have to accept finally that there are several approaches to the subject. There are no absolutes.

    When a philosophy or an ideology becomes itself the end, totalitarism emerges.

  23. Marty,

    I like your posts and can see what you’re looking at when you post them and get the responses. To me it just seems that you are trying to play a better game and are interested in other viewpoints in order to broaden your own reality.

  24. What More Can I Say?

    I doubt there is too much more you can say my friend.

    You speak from your heart and tell the truth as you see it more than any other person I know. It is a crime to be there and communicate. Many spectators will comment and find fault and criticize. And it is interesting to watch those that don’t comment on the TOPIC but comment on the commenter and try to divert and ignore the topic with ad hominem attacks.

    I don’t hold it to be a self evident truth that because someone has left the RCS it automatically elevates them to new heights of reason (though it certainly puts an end to the suppression that would stifle their ability to think for themselves).

    By the same token, I don’t think that because someone is a Scientologist – of any stripe, whether clubbed seal, independent, freezone or none of the above — automatically anoints them as having a superior ability to think and act rationally. In fact, I often find the “most devout” and rigid Scientologists are least able to think freely or for themselves. They appear to need to be told what to think and how to live and if they can’t find an LRH quote in a book, tape, policy or bulletin they are utterly stumped. That sure isnt my definition of freedom. But those are also the people who are most assertive that “they know” and that if you are not in agreement with them, you are somehow inferior or flawed. It’s an odd scene — the subject of Scientology is intended to make one more able. To some it becomes a crutch and they don’t think they can walk without a blessing from a quote.

    That you are able to look and think and speak freely about the subject of Scientology and many others is a skill and a blessing. Check out the ability gained on Grade 0 on the Grade Chart.

    As for Tony Ortega — I bet he got a good laugh out of that comment.

    The main difference between Tony and you (and there are many) is that you have studied and practiced the subject of Scientology and are continually searching for ways to help people become more enlightened. Tony has stumbled onto the subject of Scientology as a way of making news — and money. Sometimes your views intersect (such as exposing the abuses within the RCS to try to put an end to them), often times they are diametrically opposed. He is a skeptic. You are a seeker.

    Keep moving on up a little higher Marty. You have helped a hell of a lot of people to open their eyes and smell the coffee… and then fed them a healthy breakfast to get their day and life off on the right foot.

    I thank you for what you do and have done. It would be a hell of a lot easier to sit and feed the deer. It takes courage to speak your mind and to keep speaking in spite of the many reasons not to.

  25. Samuel Anthony

    For me Marty’s site is a treat because it is a forum for the free exchange of meaningful ideas as well as constructive criticism. I am not a Scientologist, but it is precisely the tone and sincerity of the posts that keep me both interested in Scientology and motivated to explore a subject so dear to those of you who remain committed to it. And I love Marty’s use of poetry and music!

  26. CRAP. I see the paragraph spacing has disappeared. Here it is again, with spacing. Sorry ’bout that!

    A-almighty-men, Mike.

    On this matter of LRH quotes, this comes to mind:
    Ron said a LOT of things. Man, could the guy say stuff! I was fortunate to have had the opportunity, because of a few posts held, to read and hear far more of what Ron said than most others ever did or will. Books, issues of all sorts, lectures, memos, letters, dispatches, recorded briefings and chats, oh my.

    Amongst all that sea of sayingness, there are a few things that eventually crystallized (for me, anyway) as the most important. Coincidentally (or not) these were points he kept coming back to, and seemed most particularly passionate about. Senior data, by which one could evaluate other data.

    One of those senior data was that it was supremely important that people retain and strengthen their own determinism and personal integrity. What’s true for you is what you’ve observed for yourself. Look; see what you see, not what someone tells you that you see. And so on. He did NOT want a bunch of blind followers, people who were scared to choose what to have for dessert without an LRH quote to back them up. He abhorred the idea of people becoming robots. No surprise there, robotism being the polar opposite of his work’s purpose and intent.

    I’m guessing here, but I’d say he abhorred even worse the possibility that people who already tended toward the robotic would become robotic about things he had written or said. (He undoubtedly also knew there was no avoiding it.)

    Hell, “Independent Scientologist” ought to be a ridiculous redundancy – there shouldn’t be any other kind, ever! Even though the term has become necessary and useful.

    Anyway, I say cheers and hats off to Marty for being an exemplary independent (true) Scientologist. He looks. He sees what he sees. He has the confront and personal integrity to say what he sees. No, he ain’t perfect. Never claimed to be, and would laugh at the idea. But he sets a good example – even if you don’t happen to like or agree with everything he says or does. (And how boring would THAT be, anyway??)

  27. Even before becoming a Scientologist, I had a maxim that I lived by – if I am not willing to do a job myself, I won’t criticize those who ARE doing it.

  28. Ok man, I’ll take a break. I could be not getting something. I respect you, Mike, Steve, Jim and everybody who has taken a stand, so I’ll listen to you and figure out where I’m at on this before I come back.

  29. I support free thinking and free speech and the right to not listen. You brought up hot subjects and this created a lot of TA and that is a good thing. I support you Marty.

  30. Glenn C. Briggs

    I’ll admit to a tendency to accept conspiracy theories, inasmuch as there’s too little on this planet that I trust any more. But, you, Marty, I trust. Please keep doing what you are doing.

  31. plainoldthetan

    Marty: I observed a shift in the tenor of your posts on this site about a year ago.

    At first, I was alarmed about it, and I discussed it with one other person.

    During the discussion, I realized that a sane person will change his viewpoint when the situation no longer merits the old viewpoint. At the same time, I realized that rigidly adhering to a viewpoint that “the only Miscavige is a dead Miscavige” wasn’t doing me any good. And I realized that if I was forcing you to adhere to that viewpoint would be classic denial of beingness.

    Moving On Up A Little Higher might require a shift in viewpoint. How else can one truly be pan-determined?

    Hang in there.

  32. Well said. Or in the immortal words of John McClain “I’m not feeling very appreciated, Al”

  33. Anonymous Confused Person

    Oooch. I’m not reading any other Scientology-related blogs so I’m unaware of this back-chatter – my first thought was “what the hell is be talking about?”
    But based on Marty’s post and the responses here, I woukd like to say that I think that one if the major features of Scientology, Inc. is a deep and driving need for a single all-encompassing Truth /that is percieved in exactly the same way by everyone involved/. The by-product of this is that if this is in fact true, everyone should naturally be in consensus, all if the time.
    As Marty has pointed out, though, LRH himself issued policy and statements that contradict one another. People view the statements through the filter of their own natures. Thus, Scientologists aren’t always in consensus. But the philosophy states that they /should/ be. Thus, it must be enforced.
    The culture of Scientology, Inc., incorporates tools to enforce consensus (which Marty has very clearly described). It seems to me that this drive for enforced consensus has carried over into the Independent movement and is now affecting Marty.
    I freely submit that this is a wild-assed guess, though, and nothing more, since (as mentioned) I haven’t seen any of these “mutterings”.

  34. Marty,

    Ive read your blog for a long time now, and several things leap out at me:

    1. A lot of Independents aren’t particularly interested in furthering the expansion of Scientology in an Independent setting, be that through helping outsiders learn what ‘real’ Scientology is, KSW, discussion of whats next; they want to talk about DM and how horrible he is.

    2. Whilst you tread familiar ground about DM, no-one will say a word. You will be cheered all the way. When you move into discussing Scientology parallels with other areas, other searches for truth or (OMFG) something LRH may have gotten wrong, you will have to contend with the quiet rumblings of those who weren’t really looking for much more than a shitfight to watch, and their personal biases confirmed.

    3. There is a lot of open-mindedness and thought in the Indie field (as judged by the comments), but also a lot of people stuck in rigid, black-or-white thinking patterns (as judged by the comments). Your post about Scientologists (both Indie and COS) being judgemental was spot on in my opinion – I personally have had several crazy accusations thrown my way since posting here. Whilst worth it for the humour value, when non-Scientologists swing by and see epic catfights it doesn’t really inspire faith in the Tech or the Independent Scene.

    4. I think, as you push on with your own research and viewpoint, you will lose some Indie support. This is what you wanted though Marty – you wanted “a thousand new leaders”. Well, leaders are bound to have disagreements, especially in matters of religious conviction. There wont be a coherent ‘Indie Scene’ in that sense, but more a loose coalition of people interpreting the Tech how they choose. Some will agree with you, but some definitely wont.

    Personally, I love the direction your blog is going, right down to the Jay-Z video. Buddhist philosophy, quantum mechanics – Some people don’t want to look further, and that’s fair enough. Spirituality is a private journey, and its no judgement on anyone how they walk that path. You do though, and you’ve gotta take the heat that will come with that. Sadly, a lot of that criticism is going to come from places you really didn’t expect it to.

  35. Roger from Switzerland Thought

    I think it’s about time that Scientologists, Independents, exes and whatever other denominations there are, really get honest with themselves and look at what THEY individually have done in the last 40-50 years and honestly assess their beliefs and mostlyl their actions putting aside any justifications and explanations.
    This is though and needs high confront to look at it honestly.
    I’m getting rid of so many stable data I’d in the last 40 years, just believed it because LRH said so, and I’m still struggling to understand how it came that I was so stupid to not really look at what is ?
    Sometimes I just would like to run back into the Church, be a nice robot and believe the whole nonsense, it’s so theta and uptone and a nice universe !

    I’d a huge awakening in the last months after talking to a pro in Management ( a Wog, with high success)and Finances and had to find out the policies (from LRH) I was using in my business are today not applicable.. It was a big why for a failure in a certain area ! Like an idiot I just kept applying this policies and they weren’t working. Probably in 1960 they were allright ! I lost lots of money because of it.
    I was an arrogant idiot, thinking I know it better than any Wog to finally find out the truth that I was an arrogant asshole and had to learn it from wogs.

    Any Scientologists should ask himself those questions and give honest answers to it;
    Where are the big corporations running with Scientology tech and Management ?
    Where are the great Scientists and Artists and Individuals and the great creations of OTs ?
    What have Scientologists for real outstanding creations on this planet that helps mankind to elvolve further ?
    Where are OT politicians ?
    And think in the right order of magnitude. Think about Mandela, Ghandi, Einstein, Michael Jackson, the Dalai Lama, the courage of Gorbatschow, the great things created by steve Jobs etc… there are many examples of advances and freedoms created by individual wogs !
    Where are those great creations of the Scientologists ? Where are the great advances in Sciences and technology, when OT’s just could recall them ?

    And at the end ask yourself the question about what were your dreams on your dynamics when you started in Scientology ? Did you really live your dream or did you just continue to dream in a bubble and hoping that perhaps next life or in some lifes later you’ll realize your dream ?

    More different opinions there are, more great creations are done. The people questionning the status quo mostly helped to open the ways for new paths.


    The word is ” MOVING” and if one moves he is changing ! It’s about not being fixed in awareness and knowledge, but about experiencing new things !

    I hope that at the end there ‘ll not be orthodox independents ! 🙂

    Sometimes I don’t agree with Marty. So what ! Sometimes I express it, sometimes not.

    His blog helped that I started to think for myself, after being for 40 years an arrogant asshole and I have insights and opinions that probably he wouldn’t like to hear, but I don’t care I’m no more willing to agree on everything re Scientology with others ! I got my own opinion !

    Marty is just pointing his fingers at certain status quo and asking questions about it.
    It may upset some people !
    So please Marty. Continue your good work and thanks a lot for your BLOG ! It helps !

  36. Roger from Switzerland Thought

    me too ! 🙂

  37. Good work, Marty. As a non-Scientologist who tries to take a rational and balanced view of the subject (while opposing Miscavige’s mind-control cult), it’s great to watch you thinking for yourself and coming to your own viewpoint. Orthodoxy is the killer of truth.

  38. Someone named Marty Rathbun wrote :

    ” It is a synthetic state of ‘superiority’ that one attains by perfecting the practice of sitting in judgment. In fact, those who engage in it obsessively have judged themselves, and sentenced themselves to a bleak future.”

    Marty & Mike, what you gave us has no price, you are really Kha-Khan. Do whatever you want…but not too much , huh? (joke)

    I love you, free spirits

  39. Very accurate comment!

  40. Wise men, Mike and Marty… Thank you too. True wisdom has no attention on “self”, “ego”, and other Fasfood spiritualities.

  41. I have a theory. If your not pissing somebody off somewhere. You must not be doing it right.

    Good Luck, Marty.

  42. i’ve been commenting on this blog for a few years now and I’ve read both of Marty’s books. When he says his views today are exactly the same as when he wrote the books, that’s good enough for me. There are areas where I have disagreements with Marty and I’ve commented on them, but they are no big deal when compared to the big picture of the job Marty and others are doing in confronting the crimes of DM. I have the highest respect for what Marty is doing.

  43. What I see you have an independent viewpoint on things and you are communicating.
    It may be hard for people to understand why you bring some stuff up (as blog posts). That’s all.
    All the communication on this blog is very enlightening. I am reading daily since a year and I couldn’t count all the benefits I myself and my lovley wife had from this blog,
    We disconnected completley from the RCS with no further contact to any org what so ever. No one is after us because we have a thorough understanding of the situation (and they can’t help themselves) and I have no need to bring up “entheta” as they wouldn’t understand. All my friends I ever brought into the RCS are out of it now. Some other friends are still in, but the seed of truth is planted and they can call and talk to me if they need more data or understanding.

    You’re a blessed soul Marty. Keep your independent viewpoint on your Boddhisattva path. You’re doing good work here. The magic of the last year was due to the combined efforts of many Scientologists and non-Scientologists. Your blog is the key connection point of all this efforts and a universe Miscavige is scared of.

  44. I second that completely. This blog is aptly titled – and there’s a whole lot of Moving on Up that has been happening – on occasion Marty’s comments have irritated the hell out of me but I always end up on reflection learning something new or going “Oh yeah, I shouldn’t have been so entrenched in my own rightness”.

    Anyway Marty thanks for clearing the air – although let me say from the outset I have not heard such comments you allude to from any Indies or Exes myself – and most certainly have not vocalised any such to others.

    Having read both your books – and gained a huge amount from both – I haven’t been unduly surprised by recent blog postings. Having said that, I have found myself troubled by some of the dialogue and comments recently – and especially what has APPEARED to be discord between your good self and others I have the highest regard for such as Steve and Jim.

    However today I had a bit of a breakthrough on this – and thanks to Windhorse in particular for making me honestly confront some things: the fact is, I think I have been playing completely the wrong game recently. In fact “get DM” isn’t even a game at all – he’s doing that all by himself anyway. The Church is also an irrelevance now – in a few years it won’t even exist except save perhaps as an extreme minority cult (oh wait, that’s what it already is – duh!)

    Thich Nhat Hanh’s poem and the resultant incredible comments from others made me look anew at why I got into Scientology in the first place. I went to see my best friend today – a guy I have known since we played Lego together at seven or eight. He was never a Scientologist but followed my life with interest and is a smart guy – a single parent of 3 teenage girls who lost his young wife to ovarian cancer about six years ago. He is successful, witty, “Christian” by actual life values although agnostic, a non-drinking non-smoking fella with a huge circle of loving friends. He didn’t need to “join” anything or follow any guru – in fact he hardly ever even reads a book. He just is, and gets on with life. After his wife died he looked up and got the meaning of the word “acceptance” and made peace with the world.

    Talking it over with him it dawned on me that I never actually joined a Church at all – I didn’t subscribe to it – ever. The whole thing, including 5 years SO, was a deviation from a journey I’d started much earlier. I already knew I was a spirit and simply yearned to be the whole person I knew I could be. I remember writing a “blog” – diary – while on the EPF which started with the question “why is a Billion year contract necessary”.

    So – getting back to the post and current matters; I feel I can ask this amongst friends – the issue for me is this: how on earth can one successfully navigate his/her way through the maze of information and diverging views and come to a peaceful resolution, in this post-organisation/cult era. If one chooses to do Scientology – who can and can’t be trusted to deliver the real deal? Every auditor on Facebook seems to claim to be delivering the “real deal” – but check out some of the fire fights between highly trained tech terminals. There must be 5 or more versions of “the real OT levels” out there. If Scientology is the “only road out” – then where does Scientology begin and end? Doesn’t the very concept of “the only road out” and KSW#1 negate any possibility of picking and choosing which bits to use?

    But most of all – and here’s the crux for me – how can I even trust myself to evaluate whether to get back on the Bridge or not? Would I make a decision based on lingering cult think? Do the OT levels delivered in a sane, non-cult environment routinely deliver peace of mind at all? Or is it a risk not worth taking, given the high levels of sickness and fragile mental health that seems to result in so many cases? A good chat with a valued friend today brought about new viewpoints and great pleasure. It would have cost me a small fortune in an HGC in the cult and necessarily been followed by an obligatory Success Story.

    Although my life has changed for the better beyond all recognition in the last three years since leaving the cult; my two daughters have truly made me a complete man and give pleasure beyond words – I still haven’t fully answered for myself the spiritual question, “Now what?” Marty clearly has; others posting here seem to have – my search goes on…thanks for staying awake.

  45. I support freedom of speech and thought. That includes freedom from living life in a Scientology “box” or not. That includes freedom to use what I find helpful in Scientology and the freedom to not use what I don’t consider helpful. So I support this blog. I don’t support “devout” people of any religion, including Scientology, trying to lord over me to curb or modify my thoughts or behavior and cram me into their religious worldview box. I don’t support spiritual tyranny and spiritual terrorism. (See book “Spiritual Terrorism” by Boyd C. Purcell for more on that subject — or not.).

  46. ..to Russ W’s comment

  47. Mike, totally agreed with your concepts.

    There is a finite amount of exposing the lies and coming out with the truth within Scn Inc. There is sufficient information out on the Web on whatever course can to be chosen in terms of whatever reformed or unreformed denomination. That is true freedom or independence as in choices of being Catholic, Presbyterian, atheist, Carlos Cataneda Cult and etc.

    I actually really appreciate the thought provoking posts recently on this blog and consider it does fit into “Moving on up Higher” with independence and without being dogmatic and expanding horizons.

    Undercurrents, opinions are strictly subjective and reactive as opposed to logic or illogic and true data analysis, and is just hum, noise and harmonic distortion in the mix.

  48. Regular Dog formerly Underdog

    Marty, I think that after you made the move of your household to a better location where Miscavige can’t have cameras pointed at your house, that he is probably starving to reach you in some way – for his own perverted need. That’s why he most likely now tries to get some rumors started to see if he can disrupt people connected to you.

  49. My definition of “freedom”: the ability to assume any viewpoint.

    My definition of hypnotism: to trap a being in a single viewpoint.

    Nobody to see link? 😉

  50. I personally like that you share your viewpoints even if I sometimes do not agree or sometimes have trouble to understand (especially in poelms … 🙂 ) as English is not my native language.
    So, sometimes “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”.
    And often you challenge with your viewpoint my views of life which results in further evaluation of my own views and here and there I then change some of my views. I love people sharing their viewpoints and respect those of others and try to understand them BEFORE condemning them to hell.
    I don’t like it at all when people start to fight viewpoints and try to not-is them heavily with force (e.g. never say a bad word about dear god LRH or never even think about it that the tech may be incomplete or not getting the promised results like being real OT acting separately from the body etc.).
    I hope you could understand what I try to say here. Love to “hear” more of your viewpoints and those of so many others here on this blog. Great meeting point for sharing views and experiences (good or bad) and sometimes just having fun 🙂

  51. PreferToBeAnon2

    I would like to respond with a few thoughts that might resonate with the non-Scientologists who read here and with those who have no stakes in the game other than stopping the death, crimes, and abuse.
    1. I don’t know Marty–only what I have gleaned from the Internet, articles, and books. He is polarizing amongst Tony’s group, that is for sure–and it seems the Indies and FZs have their own opinions as well. From my vantage point, that is a good thing. He is a strong element in our war against the Co$ and I would like to keep the little midget off balance. Predictability is never a good strategy.
    2. Marty being a “free” thinker with “independent” thought (however you define those words in this context) is a check mark on the positive column for me. And the fact that he resonates in some way with Scientologists on whatever scale people are ascribing to him, he is still “safe ground” for those fleeing from the Big House. I would hate for the backchatter to affect that.
    3. If indeed Marty has “changed” (I am not plugged into the particulars), why is change bad? People learn, grow, have new realizations. One of the reasons, I believe, that Scientology has failed is because it did not allow for change–it’s LRH or the highway. Examples: medical science has proved that smoking causes cancer and does not prevent it as LRH promoted; certainly the role of the Internet/ technology today and the resultant way we think and disseminate information must play a role; and the social value changes that have occurred since his day such as the acceptance of gays might be a factor as well. I am not even going to touch things like attack or bull baiting or management tech or, at the top of my list, NarCONon and the resultant deaths. But, to be resistant to change because it isn’t standard and to not consider outside sources or look at the current environment (be it Scientology, governments, or the Boy Scouts) is one sure way of sticking a fork in it and calling it done.
    4. The only reason why Marty “changing” would be an issue is if, in fact, Marty is the Independent Leader and his followers are confused on which way the organized group is moving. If this is not the case and he is just a guy with opinions, insights, and a blog that promotes discussion–what is the issue? Of course the Co$ is turning it into one. Honest (not a snarky) question here: Are Independent Scientologists conditioned to look for that leader to follow?
    5. I am not an LRH adept and, plainly spoken, I am not interested in waxing on about it. But from time to time I do pick up snippets of things to think about and I do enjoy some of the other things that pop up here unexpectedly–like the poem from yesterday. The key word in that last sentence is unexpectedly. Dogma, particularly in an information age like this, doesn’t sit well with me. I like the melting pot of ideas, cultures, and out-of-the-box creative thought. Then again, I am one of the few people on the planet who actually likes that awful mixture that ends up in fruit cake. There are developments in science, psychology, organizational dynamics, societal mores, etc., that can always be mined for pearls (not a clam reference here). Isn’t the way out sometimes, the way forward? Life without education is thought stopping and imprisoning. How can you save a planet without it?
    6. As well, there have been lots of comments here about Ortega, Wright, Sweeny, and some of the other journalists who have an interest in burying the House of Co$. Lots of strange bedfellows here. Don’t forget, journalists have to deal with publishers, editors, and broadcast politics as well. But, most important, these journalists and Marty have the chutzpah to march up to the house, knock on the door, and for the world to see, put a shiner in the little sociopath’s eye. Hard and often. I say keep on! And whatever we can do to help that along let’s do it. Yeah, I’m gonna say it–god-dammit cumbaya folks, get a grip, and let’s get the mission done: let’s get folks out, save lives, keep families in tact, and save the financial health of those who ever uttered the word.

  52. Even three years after leaving Scientology, I’m still pulling off layers of what I now realize was cult indoctrinated think. From the age of 5, I was indoctrinated to think a certain way, believe a certain way, and behave a certain way. I spent my teen years in the Sea Org, which took the indoctrination into a whole new level.

    During my whole life, studying another doctrine, or religion was forbidden and unacceptable. We couldn’t even watch or listen to a program that was critical of Scientology without getting in trouble or risking our “eternal freedom.”

    There are lots of valuable sources of information out there, that help people. My viewpoint is that I need to be able to think with any datums and determine whether or not I find them to be true or helpful. I’m done accepting or believing something without my own examination of it, because of an unquestioning obedience to its source.

    We were all in a cult. We all had different experiences, some of them similar. My viewpoint is that Scientology became a cult the minute the Sea Org was started, that’s my viewpoint. The road to healing from that and moving on is different for each of us.

    It’s my viewpoint that when someone gets their panties in a twist over someone else not still strictly following Scientology doctrine, it is because they are still operating off of a cult mentality that there is ONLY ONE WAY, ONLY ONE SOURCE. It is possible to follow Scientology to the letter yourself, and let others live their lives as they see best, even if it doesn’t align perfectly with Scientology, and vice versa.

    I have no problem with my friends who continue to practice Scientology outside of the cult. If we get along, enjoy each others company and aren’t assholes to each other, I could care less what religion you practice.

    Like I said, three years later I’m still peeling off layers of untruths and discovering who I am without the indoctrinated cult think. I do know that I have more compassion for my fellow man then I did when I was in Scientology. I am way less of a judgmental bitch.

    Today I take pride in being what the cult refers to as being open minded. I’m not perfect, nor do I constantly do the right thing, but I’m really okay with that. I’m just trying to get it right most of the time, and learn from my mistakes. I’m no longer defined by how someone else chooses to label me, in or out of the cult.

    I’m even enjoying some of my neurosis. In the cult I was OT 4 and constantly being hammered about behaving as an OT, which mostly entailed being indoctrinated into pretending I didn’t have the issues I had, but that all was perfect.

    I get sick, I have allergies and even an auto-immune disorder. I can’t sleep if my closet door is open, and I like to read books about the zombie apocalypse. I love having happy hour with friends, and I’m not great with money. I’m a compulsive nail bitter and I think gays should be able to get married. I grew up in a cult, and lived to tell about it.

    Three years out of Scientology, I’ve learned that I’m good at being perfectly imperfect, and I enjoy it. I’m also great at getting things done, finding the silver lining, and being there for those I care about. I’m madly in love with my stud muffin of a husband, and am happy with the people my kids are becoming.

    Marty writes about Scientology, the Tao and a host of other topics. He posts music videos, and shares books that he reads. Sometimes I agree with what he says, sometimes I don’t. What I do know is he communicates from the heart, in an effort to help by sharing his own experience, thoughts and viewpoint. What he says won’t resonate with everyone one every time. It doesn’t have to, we are NO LONGER IN A CULT that requires blind obedience.

    Mike, Marty and others catch a lot of shit from not just the cult, but also other individuals from time to time. I’ve only known them outside of the cult. Both have helped me and my family over the last 3 years, especially when we first left. Not Mike, Marty or one Indie friend of mine has yet to require of even insinuate that I should still be practicing Scientology. Why would I then judge how they or anyone chooses to practice it outside of the cult?

    My rule of thumb is “Is it causing harm to someone else?” The Church of Scientology is in the businesses of creating ex-Scientologist, breaking up families, and looking like extremist assholes, causing more harm than good.

    Based on my experience with the friends I have who are practicing Scientology outside of the cult, to one degree or another, they are happy and are not on a mission to take over the world, creating robots who only obey. If I came across someone who was trying to turn me into a robot, I would just keep moving. No dog ever peed on a moving car.

    I guess what I’m saying is that we are no longer in a cult. You don’t have to agree with everything Marty says or does, I don’t. You can always stop following his blog. I doubt your facebook friends will be sent messages to disconnect, nor will you then have your trash gone through by PIs if you do so.

    Regardless of what anyone else thinks, If we think with information and decide for ourselves what is useful and what is not, we should get by pretty well. You don’t need to be a dick about it. What works for me may not work for someone else. We each have the freedom to evaluate and decide for ourselves, it’s one of the perks of not being in a cult.

    It’s not rocket science. We have a choice about who we spend our time with or listen to. You don’t have to be a Proctologist to recognize an asshole when you see one.

  53. Wonderfull said! That’s what I tried to say ….. 😉

  54. Well said Roger, and well done on your willingness to change. Letting go of a stable datum (or even inspecting it) takes courage.

  55. What I see happening are some attempts to establish a “group think” or worse, a democracy. “I think the blog should be like this” as if we are house decorating. As if we are going to set up voting rights and some new form of government. There are people that can not find a comfort zone outside of some form of government. There are people that WANT to be governed. There are people that did not leave the Church because they wanted to, they were forced to. There are people who seek to turn this activity into a SUBSTITUTE activity for the C of S. It’s a “Tell us what to do next” kind of situation. Sometimes it gets a little murkey but when all is said and done, a lot of people are still coping in a wobbly way with the whole matter of Scientology. They can not just step in and out of the Scientology. And Scientologists have been told they can not be half in and half out of Scientology. That was never true for me. I could step in, step out, be half in and half out. I never SURRENDERED to any part of it. There are people that SURRENDERED to this information and the ideas around it. Look at the OT sevens arriving at the base, still being given routing forms they follow diligently. Still sitting across from some MAA whole has not lived out in the worlds for decades telling them they can or can not do. Believe it or not, some people like it. The blog activity is at the top of the CDEI scale in desire. Marty fells like writing when he does he writes. People are CURIOUS ABOUT lowest (you would hope) and then come to desire on posting. When you have someone come along and work to push the blog activity into the enforce band it is like the Scientology itself. It will not work in the enforce band. Forcing people here how to think or how they communicate will not work. It’s an unworkable system. This blog is an honor system. You find the cafe society of Scientology here. The people who prefer to be themselves before the identifying labels. People who are not afraid with out a group or a status quo or a class system or a rights system or a penal or penile system. This is very frightening to others and can even confuse them. It’s like running around with no clothes on to a thetan. The rumors and attacks I see are from people who lean on status quo and object when others are not doing the same thing. People who want to rule or be ruled. You do have people out here that liked Scientology Inc structure and it’s “props” and hoped to reinvent it with themselves in charge or someone in charge of them again. They did not leave the Church on their own determinism, they were escorted out by security. There are people that said, “I am done with this process now” and there are people that were interrupted mid process, still wanting to complete the process they were running when they got interrupted. The blog is a new process. There are people that are protesting about it. There are people that A=A ing it with some other process. There are people that were ready for a new process. And there are people that are pretending to be interested in a new process when they are actually protesting about any new process. There are people who will never rise above a normal condition because they are so stuck in habits patterns and ideas they are incapable of bypassing normal habits and routines. All of that said, considering that stats, I would say there are so many people out here in “curious about” or “desire” the few that find living outside of the enforce band a discomforting thought, are a very small percentage. They are always free to establish their own circles that reflect their mind set and probably that would be a healthy process for them. Can the Scientology survive outside of the enforce band? The truth is, the Scientology does not even work in the enforce band. And there are people that know that very well and that is why they keep trying to push it into the enforce band. The only hope we have to keep the subject alive is to reposition it back up at the top of the CDEI scale. And I see that as exactly the platform Marty has set up here with this blog. Those are my views.

  56. Hi Marty,
    Truth be told I didn’t like the survey stuff all that much. I don’t care what you believe personally. I said in a recent post on your blog that I don’t even like to call myself a Scientologist anymore, mostl;y because I don’t like labelling myself.
    I do like auditing, and I believe that you still audit don’t you?
    It is a whole new world out here away from the control of a psychotic mad man. It takes some time to adjust and get one’s bearings. You have that right the same as any of us. It just so happens that your whole life is under the microscope. As long as you keep trying to bring down dm, I am behind you all the way. I may not like everything you do and I am sure you feel the same about many of us out here. I think you are a great guy and keep up the good work.
    You don’t owe anyone anything. You could have taken the money and ran a long ago… I never forget that.

  57. I think that people who think they have to tell you how to be and think are people who can’t be and think for themselves. Because if they could, they could let YOU be and think as you like.

  58. Marty ~~
    Excellent essay above.
    This is your damned blog. It is your creation.
    For those who don’t like content ~~ heck, go start your own damned blog.
    I was the recipient of a couple of the “unhappy with the Blog” and I cut it dead with above comments. Actually these 2 did agree when we comm’d it out that you can write whatever you want.
    You have done more to shed the light on Miscavige than anyone on planet earth and the public want MORE !
    2013 will give more and MOAR !
    I believe we can get wisdom from many sources and I love how you think outside the box and write essays that provoke more reflection. 💡 💡 💡

  59. If you really want to keep attracting people away from supporting RCS, you need to keep the focus on the out-tech and abuses of the church. It comes down to what your goal is. If that is still your goal, that needs to be 95% of the content of the subjects.
    I think the other subjects are fine and interesting, it helps expose many to subjects and viewpoints that they would not have otherwise taken a look at. And there is nothing wrong with it. Your are free to express and grow whatever viewpoints you wish. I enjoy them. But it dulls the tip of the spear. It starts transforming a coloseum where people follow the attack line into a coffee-house. I suppose it comes down to your own personal admin scale. Its your blog. Take it where ever you want. Your not responsible for everyones condition.

  60. Marty
    Hat off to you for tackling what needs tackling!
    To hell with those that have nothing better to do than to rumor monger.
    I have never seen anybody sprout wings when passing the threshold on entering a CoS building.
    We are dealing with the same aberrations inside or outside the CoS.

    There is a huge difference between having and voicing opinions about this and that in Scientology and the situation of being in session and applying what works by the letter as we know from experience, rather than reinventing the wheel.
    And, BTW, I don’t miss those thumbs up and down, not a bit! 🙂

  61. Martin, you said : “I have found myself troubled by some of the dialogue and comments recently – and especially what has APPEARED to be discord between your good self and others I have the highest regard for such as Steve and Jim.”.

    You are right, and again I would quote LRH (as I could quote Buddha or Lao Tzu or Sun Tzu or Richard Brautigan. 🙂

    HCOPL A model Hat fo an executive :
    “.1. People are willing to do their best and will until hammered about it.
    2. Most causes for complaint are based not on misconduct but on misun­
    3. Only persona} contact can restore understanding.
    4. Written criticism or anger is rarely repaired by more writing. A breach opened by writing is usually susceptible to being healed only by persona! contact. The moral is, therefore, don’t open the breach with a distempered despatch.
    5. Don’t let a detected error drift. Take it up and correct it when found.
    6. Don’t accumulate “bad marks” against a terminal before acting. Forget old “bad marks” when they have been corrected.
    7. A terminal has his side of the story. As the person on the job he has more valid data than the executive. Listen and question before you decide you’re outraged.”

    Simply said : “communication IS IS the universal solvent.”

  62. Well said Roger.

    And it IS all about MOVING. Rigid thinking. Rigid rules. Rigid mindset — well — it’s like cement and who ever had success talking to a block head?

    ALSO — it seems some are eager to find fault with Marty and to think the worse. Early on those anti-LRH boards they thought he and Mike were angling to take over from dm. Oust dm and take over.

    Wow — obviously they can’t read well.

    But, right here on this board, people say Marty is off the rails. That he’s not behaving as they expect him to. He doesn’t validate enough or ignores too much or adds thumbs up or downs.

    I think Marty is attempting to get people to think for themselves. (which some others are saying the same thing A policy is never going to replace a thetan. LRH said so himself.

    IF you can’t operate without a policy in front of your face, that you quote to validate yourself — I say that should be your biggest clue …

    You need to find your thetan (Joking here)

    One more thing — Lawrence Wright’s book is already pretty scathing but we’ve only seen the tip.

    And IF you haven’t found your thetan – chances are you are going to implode because your stable datums will be blown apart by what Wright has to say — and without a ROCK SOLID stable datum (which wasn’t actually TRUTH) in the place of where your thetan should be …

    You are going to implode.

    No fun at all.

    PS — please don’t correct me about “finding your thetan etc etc — I am saying this in the roughest of terms so make a point. Please work with me here 🙂
    PPS: Your alternative is to deny that what Wright says is true. Of course you will then be just like those who won’t read the news. The choice is yours.

  63. I am surprised by the lenght of the posts. Again, you smelled something…

  64. Marty,

    I have noticed this and other really weird, malicious, and relatively insane flows going through the community recently. A lot of it seems to focus around ethics, and much of it has the distinct flavor, IMHO, of heavy ethics.

    People seem to be wanting to get, or slam in other peoples ethics. The few that are acting, in essence, as “Indie Volunteer Ministers” seem to be flooded with demands to get in others ethics, slam it in, investigate, make announcements, post findings.

    Really? How do you declare people already declared? How do you deny someone their “Bridge” in the growing non COS free market delivery economy? Does declaring or labeling or investigating you, or me, or anyone make a difference? What are they going to threaten us with? A declare from an internet forum? Double declare? How do you non enturb order a person already declared? More disconnection? Public denigration and slander … fair game? Are these people smoking crack?

    The only thing we have, the ABSOLUTE only thing we have, is other peoples willingness to talk to us, spend time with us, listen or help. We have nothing else. You can’t force us to do anything. You can’t buy us off. Anyone who demands that we comply either has to get our willingness or we turn around and walk away.

    The absence of good manner, civility, humanity, common decency and compassion, the inability to apply “What is Greatness” in both the COS and significant segments of the Indy community is the primary reason why I would never call myself a Scientologist.

  65. Tony: Marty has become my friend (along with Mosey).

    If he decides to never write another word against dm, take an enormous settlement, I’m OK with it.

    Because now I’m his friend and he’ll give me some.

    (JUST KIDDING — but seriously — it’s his life and the best thing he can do for me and all of us is to continue to be true to himself.)

  66. Some folks are parasitic in that they must elect others to think for them because they lack intellectual prowess and the responsibility for creation. Consequently, they sway to group think out of fear of consequence and a knee jerk reaction to have what they perceive as the ‘right think’.

    I know from reading this blog that some people want to elect Marty as their leader. I have seen Marty’s own writing on this blog where he rebuffs this hat, and rightly so. I do see someone who desires to share his ideas and experiences and encourages others to do the same. It is, after all, his blog. He is free to write whatever he wants. He, in turn, allows others the same privilege . Discussion should be about ideas, and not about attacking the originator. He isn’t demanding agreement or compliance. I am sure that the very idea of such is repugnant considering the years working in the SO!

    I don’t know what stuff has been said on the back burner, but I can say that I truly appreciate having this blog to discuss my experiences and ideas and most importantly, to learn about what others have experienced first hand. I have respect for Marty has a human being, I enjoy his posts, but I don’t think he is obliged to say or do anything for me or anyone else. That said, I am happy that he chooses to keep this blog alive!

  67. Marty,
    I like both of your books. Read your Blog everyday that I can.
    I dont recieve any extra data on Scientology beyond that so I
    enjoy reading from others and your messeges.
    My clientel is very select, my work takes me places most people avoid.
    You maybe on the cusp of a major stable win or a KODAK Moment.
    Keep up the good work.

  68. an old Arabic saying: “The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.”

  69. Very well said. Self-reflection is a good thing.

  70. martyrathbun09

    In the hundreds of thousands of words I have shared, can you point me to where I said I was ‘trying bring down dm’?

  71. Agreed, Mike, 100%. Comparing Marty with Tony Ortega belongs in the A=A=A Hall of Fame. Tony has zero skin in the game. I doubt that he never once even considered that any of the billion or so data about the mind discussed in Scientology (that DON’T have anything to do with OT III) had the slightest relation to his own mind.

  72. martyrathbun09

    Wow, what a beautiful piece of mind.

  73. martyrathbun09

    Thanks for that well-reasoned piece.

  74. martyrathbun09

    You noted, ‘Can the Scientology survive outside of the enforce band? The truth is, the Scientology does not even work in the enforce band.’

  75. martyrathbun09

    Yes, several twice-removed desperate measures have been noted over the past month.

  76. Marty,

    How can I get in contact witha reputable Indie? I have actaully been through Narconon where I was introduced to the teachings of LRH. I have to say, I am interested in persuing it further. However, from what I expierenced at Narconon thanks to the true “staff” members, I am terrified to go in to an Org. The Tech was awesome, but the way they hounded my family for tens of thousands of MORE dollars afer the promise it was paid in full when I arrived… I wouldn’t come within a mile of an actual corporate Scientologist. Some I met really got it, but the balance were so indoctrinated to squueze every single dime out of everyone there, it quickly became sour and I closed my mind. I am willing to open up to it, but I need an Indie I can trust. Someone please help!!!

  77. I like this coment too.

  78. Well, if you aren’t, forgive me for saying so. It is a personal desire of mine to see him fail, if it’s not yours, that’s up to you.

  79. Dear Marty,
    Many french indies read you blog, even if we meet difficulties with the english language,it has become a stable datum for most of us
    It has a lot of value, and has become in france a big common denominator among us
    Thk you for the great job you are doing

    You have all our support

  80. Insanity has no limits …

    I guess we are going to get some examples shortly — assuming those who are going to do the slammin’ have the courage to come forward and slam.

    Isn’t it great though Mike, that instead of most of us instantly introverting when an ethics mission would hit the base — we can say …

    BRING IT!!!

  81. Phil Bruemmer

    I agree with Claudio.
    You definitely helped me and I know you have helped many others – maybe even whoever is giving the verbal “knowledge reports” to others about you, but not giving you copies.
    Black PR is what it amounts to (see PR Series 18 if a reference is needed. One can also see the PL Injustice).

  82. The evolution of this blog has been in the general direction of “movin on up.’ IMO, it continues to do that and more.

    Thx Marty

  83. martyrathbun09

    Thanks. I don’t mind disagreements. I am trying to get people to graduate from the idea that attacking the person taking a position is an argument or useful debate tactic.

  84. I feel prompted to contribute to today’s subject as I have to agree.

    I don’t really participate on this blog, and can be called an under-the-radar spectator. There, I said it. It is here I brace myself for the comments that come as a result of this statement.

    I will say that I look forward to the articles presented nearly every day. These articles continually expand my awareness and not just about Scientology. “The Sociopath Next Door” and “Life is So Good” are two books I would never have read had they not been talked about on this blog.

    Lately the articles posted have really hit home. “Judgement” could not have been more on target in my opinion. Something that seemed so painfully obvious to me had finally been written about by someone with good command over the English language and has tremendously good talent for writing. Thank you Marty.

    One of the reasons I don’t add my voice is because I am not trained. There are people who post comments that I always feel are worthwhile. Karen#1 and Jim (for example) are two (of many) I look for as I skim through the hundreds of replies on any given day. Their statements are based on a great deal of knowledge about the subject of Scientology combined with inside experience that has been lived for many years. This combined with intelligence and decent writing skills I have come to admire and respect. There are also those that I now skip over.

    Another reason I don’t add my voice is because I know that I don’t always express myself in writing well. It is a bit hit-or-miss in my regard and I am aware of this. Also, I am not interested in getting caught up in the very thing that has been expressed in today’s article – “Scientology Inc. style undercutting, back biting, rumor milling, questioning of the source of views.” I would say from personal experience it can be so easy to fall into this mind-set. There was a time when I would have felt a part of the group when participating in such a fashion and that this was a way to show support. I now view this as a sort of trap and prefer to stand alone than to participate. If asked for an opinion I would say this is where a person begins to mindlessly follow what someone else thinks or feels, which, I would say, is the current state of Scientology Inc.

    This is my view.

  85. Yes, Grasshopper, it really -is- about TRUST.

    And it helps to remember that Miscavige no longer has the wherewithal in personnel, to put an OSA agent behind every bush (exception – Marty’s place – but those are private, hired mercenaries).

    More communication, not less, is the answer. Just be there comfortably and communicate. :We really do have the upper hand – we are the free people – and the only ones who could mess that up, are ourselves. = )

  86. martyrathbun09

  87. @Peter,
    I personally don’t know if Marty’s single intention was originally to attract people away from the RCS or to concentrate on out tech. I never saw it as that specifically. Perhaps you do know this to be the main purpose. Either way, I understand your idea of his aligning the blog with his purpose. My assumption is that he has the where-with-all to control how he wants to create it.
    However, I would like to add that keeping the discussion focused only or even mainly on the out tech would be problematic. There is already a website addressing this issue specifically. Also, there is more under scrutiny than the red on white, though that is a significant agenda. There is the off policy ‘justice’, and then there is the disagreement with the on policy ethics system itself. In fact, the admin scale of the church from its inception is a point of interest.
    Even if Marty had an original single purpose for the blog, admin scales can be achieved, and then new ones are formed. Secondly, I do know that this is a place where people come to publicly announce leaving the church for whatever their reason. Therefore, the blog has its own transformation, yet it still is a place where out tech can be discussed as many of the people who have left have for reasons which point to out tech or off policy actions. In terms of discussing specific out tech it takes hatted people to do so. I do not know what percentage of people who blog are hatted auditors. There are even those who were never Scientologist, although they are in the minority for sure. If there is more out tech that has not been discussed, then this is the place to do it, and perhaps you are aware of something not previously taken up. Otherwise, people use the blog for many reasons, and to keep the goal to one topic would cut the communication lines that have developed, IMHO.

  88. EnthralledObserver

    All the points I’ve ever written lead to this – well said – finally!


  89. Tom Gallagher


    I like you just the way you are. Keep it up. Moreover, I consider it an irrefutable and universal truth that as order is put in confusion blows up.

    Aren’t we there yet?

    Whether this song is appropriate or not, this is what came to mind.

    With all my admiration, sincerely yours,

    Tom Gallagher

  90. Scientology is based upon infinity-valued logic where absolutes are unobtainable.

    Yet one can find just the opposite all over the written materials. For instance, when someone gets declared an SP, how much of an SP are they? This is one place where, from Scientology’s point of view, a guy is an SP or he’s not.

    For me, it’s these parts of Scientology, the totally fixed dogmas: the three swing F/N, being in a state of SP or not, delivering 6 month sec-checks no matter what the person’s circumstances are, and ultimately drilling the one and only one way to do everything.

    Scientology practice has morphed from analog to digital.

  91. I also think we should organize a protest — indies, anon, critics, humans, and thetans. One weekend — we can all meet — and express our rights as citizens of the United States but also socialize, hang out, and have fun! Who’s in????

  92. @Russ,
    that one statement by Ron regarding ‘what is true for you…” is the thing I loved most when I read my first book, as it was on all the books. It really acts as a disclaimer of sorts and it allows the reader to be right about their own thinking before and during reading of the book. Unfortunately, this statement is no longer promoted in writing or otherwise.

  93. martyrathbun09

    Go to this link, http://www.freeandable.com/

  94. whingeybingey

    Hell, yes!

  95. @Meccano,

  96. I second that.

    Marty, you do not need to defend yourself. Your posts and actions speak loudly for themselves. Anybody who cannot see that needs to get some good auditing urgently, so he can observe.

  97. Gerhard Waterkamp

    What is happening here on this blog is as I think a much needed discussion. Marty, you are just the one not being afraid raising the important issues.
    There is a technology of the mind intended (at least that is what is stated) to free and improve beings and yet its main application became the enslavement of beings in the COS. So where the heck went it all wrong?
    I wish I had all the answers, but what I learned from the discussions here is: apparently it is not enough to postulate a technology that can handle the mind without at the same time postulate compassion, decency, humility, and love, because the ones that do not have these qualities naturally will use the technology without compassion, without love and without decency to disastrous results.
    And I have full reality on this type of COS Inc. back channel black PR practiced in independent Scientology. I recently got attacked in a way that made me ask if we now have an “independent OSA”. 🙂 Some people just still have to do some homework to understand their history and learn from it. Your blog is instigating this learning process, for some it is just harder to confront.
    It is not enough to complain about DM, there is not alternative to moving on up a little higher.
    Mike Rinder and other smart people have said it all, so no need to add to that, other than my thanks for what you are doing.

  98. Marty can do whatever he wants to. I agree.

  99. Marty, I read Rons Journal #1 uplines once. In it LRH was talking about how he once wrote an article in a local newspaper about how a psychiatrist was drugging women and raping them and how horrible it all was. The next thing he knew he was being attacked by the London Daily mail. He thought that was curious and so he wrote a negative article on the London Daily mail. Right afterwards he got attacked by Readers Digest. He attacked Readers Digest and Time Magazine attacked him. He was getting TA and he loved it. He kept this routine up until he uncovered the real bad guys who were behind the attacks against him and Scn emerged.
    Dude – you wrote a blog about where thetans were 75,000,000 years ago and the shit immediately hit the fan and continues to hit the fan. The power of that time period can not be under estimated. There are those around us who want that level kept suppressed. You steered people towards the real truth a few days ago.
    ML Tom

  100. The current leadership of CO$ hasn’t publicly fair gamed or black PRed anyone for some time. Marty, it is your turn again, not that they ever stopped messing with you. The fact that the current rumors and “not so bright false data prone” rumor spreaders originated on CO$ attack sites is all the attribution needed. Some people evolve, some don’t. Are Davey’s arms long enough for him to drag his knuckles?

  101. Another view I have on all this.
    Marty is just communicating his reality and some order is going in and some confusion is blowing off. I feel a lot of Scientologists have never had the chance to really speak their minds about different points about Scientology. Now we all have that chance, including Marty.
    I think some people want Marty to be the new Messiah. Truthfully, the way I see it there is no Messiah. There can be people that help lead the way for awhile and then sometimes they lose thier way. A person always has to be on their toes to see if they are heading where they want to go.
    Some Indies in my opinion are still “all in” as if you have to believe every word uttered by LRH or you are some kind of heretic. When we were in the group called Scientology there was a “bridge to total freedom”. I really don’t believe that bridge even exists anymore. There is a bridge, and it leads from wherever you are and goes off into the distance. Some bridges take you down into dark places. You have to travel your own bridge and not let others sell you tickets onto their bridges unless you like the looks of it. And even then , while travelling that bridge, look around every once in awhile and see if you like the scenery.

  102. Jewel, I enjoyed your viewpoint on evolving admin scales and other points. Marty is in a Power condition. I think the blog has been a part of that, or maybee the result of that ascent. Power condition formula should be kept in mind, depending on where he wants to take this in the future. Thats what I was trying to convey. I do not know anything about his having any single mindedness of purpose. I think he does a great job in his offerings. He is not going to please everyone, no matter what he says. So he might as well please himself.

  103. Mecccano,
    I think you do a good job of expressing your thoughts. Thanks for sharing!

  104. Joe Pendleton

    The A=A=A Hall of Fame, I like it. And one can get in it IMMEDIATELY (no 5 year wait, doesn’t matter if you took steroids either).

  105. Joe Pendleton

    Beautifuly, beautifuly stated Natalie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  106. Chad Braunersrither

    Kevin’s comment reminded me of comedian Brian Regan. It’s at the 7:30 minute mark. Enjoy!

  107. Tom Gallagher

    I’ll offer this up: 12/21/12 was just a date on ‘someone’s’ calender.

    But why are folks acting weird and scared even here on this blog?

    I sense it’s simply because there’s a shit storm a’comin on multiple fronts economically, financially, socially, spiitually, and on and on.

    Us beings ‘Know’.

    Some folks didn’t, wouldn’t or couldn’t take some well-worn and universal advice: Panic now and avoid the rush.

    By June, It’s TEOTWAWKI, IMHO . I’m trained as an economist and I’ll stand on that forecast.

    Heck, won’t this be another screwed up adventure?

    The question is, ” Will you be prepared for not only yourself, but your loved ones and perhaps even your neighbors and even strangers?”

    As spiritual beings, isn’t it our honor on the line?

  108. Chad Braunersrither

    Marty, You and I have a lot we disagree about Scientology but as a reader of your blog I must admit that you are definitely a champion of Scientology and LRH. I remember an old tape from my days as a scientologist about cur dogs barking at a fire truck. I think that would be a good reference for you concerning those knuckleheads.

  109. THANKS 🙂

  110. Joe Pendleton

    Marty, absolutely one of the most important posts AND threads that you have had on your blog. Roger Switzerland, Rinder, Christine, Martin Padfield, Anonymous Confused, Prefer to be, etc – your comments here resonate in my universe (earth shatteringly!!!!) –

    Diversity of thought, freedom to explore, think and consider, freedom to decide on what one believes and what is true for one, freedom to change one’s mind …… freedom NOT to be completely restricted by any one philosophy or set of values … freedom to adapt any philosophy one wishes to….. AS LONG AS ONE DOES NOT RESTRICT OTHERS’ FREEDOMS OR HARM OTHERS’ SURVIVAL.

    I do not regret my decades of travel in Scientology. It was the journey I wanted and probably needed at the time. It wasn’t EXACTLY what I thought it was, a number of illusions and un-truths existed side by side with a lot of basic, valuable truths about life (for me).

    The poem you posted Marty spoke to me that there is a wide and diverse universe of beings and creations that we can choose to connect to and communicate to if we wish and that we can interact with and create beauty with.

    Yes, there is “post Scientology” and it doesn’t mean to reject Scientology philosophy or technology. It CAN mean to continue to use Scientology with an open attitude towards all of the positive and valuable aspects of existence that are “out there.” Marty represents this attitude and there will most definately be some folks out there who simply WILL NOT BE ABLE TO HAVE THAT. So be it.

  111. Russw
    Can you clarify in what context is Indept Scientologist
    is referred too.

    ” Hell, “Independent Scientologist” ought to be a ridiculous redundancy – there shouldn’t be any other kind, ever! Even though the term has become necessary and useful.” Thankyou /Hadley/

  112. I think that there are many people that look up to Marty and knowing that he has such a big following feel that he has power to lead and teach others, and they would love to be in his shoes, but they know that they would take advantage of their power. And they are shocked that Marty doesn’t, so they don’t trust him, they think he is up to something and they are trying to figure it out, because they KNOW if it were them they would use this power to benefit themselves. And they can’t believe that Marty is straight up and honest because they themselves would take advantage.

  113. Hi all, new to your blog and forever under radar ! I don’t want at all to make my name public as I don’t see any use of it. When no opponent = no war.
    I’ve been following this blog since its creation. It helped for sure to understand the Goal Problem Mass Co$ and myself were in.
    The reply of Roger of Switzerland gave me some insight. Understanding, thanks to Roger, what a missed target and a failed purpose it has all been for quite some of us : the goal was to free beings. As Marty said “….Amen.” Right. In all directions we can all say Amen and jump on our meters and train and audit as it’s the only activity in which we are specialists. In that area we are competent. It is the only activity which get us over the level of the best wog businessman ever. Over the OSA goon. Over the best Top Intl Management Exec who ever existed in the 3 universes. Over the worse OppTerm you would dream of. This is our invaluable capital : the tech. We paid for it in money, labor, invaluable help, sweat and tears, we paid in the form of invals, evals, out-lists etc… But training, drilling, using it on self and others in a free manner will bring us all over any game. Then it is easy to play. That is what Co$ never allowed. For the first time we have the opportunity. Ask Marty about it. I’m sure he does that and get lots of fun from the game called Moving On Up a Little Higher. But he plays. Not trying to bring down DM. Not to take over Co$. What a stupid idea of a bad game !
    But to be three feet back of the game(s) one has to be moved on up a little higher. What’s the best motivation to play ? Fun. Even the rumors about this blog are …. funny! I delect myself how Marty is moving the pieces on the field of this game. Very clever, very clever indeed.
    PS If anyone think I’m an OSA bot… please don’t mock up a new game inside the game ! For fun I said.

  114. When both OSA and Anonymous are putting you down, you can be sure you’re on the right path. The Middle Path, in fact. The Middle Path means an escape from the two-valued logic of the kind of fanatics who say “anyone who isn’t a Communist must be a Capitalist”. Extremes are always aberrations to some extent, and sanity is somewhere in the middle – free to move. It could be compared to a meter needle that isn’t pressed to the left pin or the right pin, but floating in the middle.

    The diversity of opinion among the Independents is great. The unfriendliness that sometimes seems to exist between different cliques is not so good. I keep coming back to your blog as a meeting ground for people with various opinions, and I appreciate the leeway you give to anyone who isn’t a complete troll.

  115. It does seem to me that Marty has that most valuable of qualities, the ability to be a free thinker – to read a wide spectrum of wisdom and philosophies (besides just LRH) and bring back the wisdom of what he’s learned.

    You simply can’t do that if your are addicted to strict policies, and addiction to policy is like a sentence to death when it comes to spirituality.

    Scientology Corp needs that suppression of free-thinking to function. Indies don’t.

  116. “You are enturbulating the field” speak
    for yourself as I’m not enturbulated. I’m free to do, think and read what may. IMO people need to break out of the mold of having to be led around by a rope and start leading themselves and they’ll be less enturbulated.

  117. Michael Fairman

    You said it, Natalie!

  118. As an interesting side note to all this. How the subject of Scientology should exist independently needs much further thought and analysis. Though Scientology claimed to be evolutionary and not revolutionary that was never actually the case. The moment it moved away from simply being a spiritual “therapy” to being a religion with a Sea Org hierarchy and potent influence over its members, especially prominent ones, that moulded their thoughts and actions, it began the reenactment of Thomas More -v- Henry II. In other words it butted up against the state. And as history shows, the state holds all the real cards when it comes to that kind of affair. You can’t have a powerful church or other organization that tells its members how to think and act within a state without the state destroying it or dominating/controlling it. One of the other. Not even in the USA with the so called separation of church and state. This is just one example of why I say the process we are engaged in has just begun, certainly for those that want to see the subject survive.

  119. I ask you to clarify the below quote from yr write up on ” What can I say I ?

    It is written by a small-time back-biter stuck in lower conditions and a so-so Scientologist at best as it FRAGMENTS the movement into (A) those privy to your backchannels chatter and the majority who aren’t and who are now uncersain what the fuck is going on behind their back and it further attempts to separate Independents from the despised Freezoners Unquote.

    My comment to this above is , Theirs many good Indept people delivering and doing well , and how you write i,t its appears otherwise by who ? and based on what ?

  120. I totally agree.
    Corporate C of $ is stuck in an ever shrinking iron box.

  121. Yes! +1
    (It’s sure easy to be an armchair quarterback.)

  122. Richard Lloyd-Roberts

    Some of your posts leave me a little puzzled. Some of them make me think. Either way its your blog and my choice to read and agree or not. I have found through the facebook groups and various other Scn web portals that many people that declare “independence” still have not shaken the corp mentality and are still robots without the ability to think for themselves. On all of these sites and your blogs there are going to be attacks, covert ops, agreements, robots etc.
    My take is this. Keep doing what you are doing and take no notice of the crap.

  123. +1000000 beautifully stated

  124. Regular Dog formerly Underdog

    I always expect any person who uses Scientology to occasionally conduct surveys. Surveys collect data and also collect Tone Levels on certain things or subjects. Knowing that then helps communication.

    I do miss the fishing in Marty’s old back yard. Maybe it’s time to take Chiquita hunting for some edible critters out there in the wild and get it all on video.

  125. “And it IS all about MOVING. Rigid thinking. Rigid rules. Rigid mindset — well — it’s like cement and who ever had success talking to a block head?”

    Perfect! Thank you, Christine. 🙂

  126. I am LOVING this! Great post, Marty. Great comments, everyone.

  127. The thrust of the backchannels chatter is “Maybe the guy who coined (or as freezoners assert, re-coined) the term Independent Scientologist doesn’t qualify for membership.”

    Then how about a new term?

    Interdependent Scientologist.

    or better yet:

    Citizen of the Universe.

    I have to keep reminding myself that the grand geniuses and famous names rise on the currents of the countless heartbeats of the mediocre, the best and the worst of us, the pulse of the tiny microbes & massive whales in the vast ocean, all born on this planet which teems with life, held together by forces barely understood and co-creating — all hurtling through the vastness of space on the rim of a galaxy, just one of billions, and all beautifully interdependent. This is the crucible in which Scientology was born, born to serve, not own.

    I thought Thich Nhat Hanh expressed it very well:

    “Please call me by my true names,
    so I can hear all my cries and laughs at once,
    so I can see that my joy and pain are one.

    Please call me by my true names,
    so I can wake up,
    and so the door of my heart can be left open,
    the door of compassion.”

    I have no name for you,
    But I do call you brother


  128. Yes, truth will out. Why worry about looking at new stuff? What is wrong with learning? Sure, it can be confusing and all that, but to me, it is never a waste of time trying to understand someone’s viewpoint. And we have tools! The Data Series. Study Tech. False Data stripping. Obnosis. We CAN figure it out, and we should know enough to look up the words.

    Why not understand why Mormons believe that Jesus appeared in the New World? Why not talk with someone about evolution and the mechanics thereof? How can anyone be opposed to something they don’t even know about? I personally accuse the Anti-Scientology crowd of condemning Scientology without knowing anything about it. How can I condemn materialism without at least understanding what the materialists are saying? Why even condemn it? It is just an opinion, a theory based on certain observations and assumptions. The materialist (as an example) is not trying to kill you, just to explain our presence on this crazy orb.

    Here’s the deal – no one fully, 100%, agrees with ANYONE else. But, so what? We still/should still love them.

  129. IMHO Marty I believe you are changing but that you are not changing to follow or align with anyone, rather your changes are part of your own journey.

    You are no longer a follower to be told what to believe rather you are thinking critically about what works for you. You are applying your life experiences in a positive way to learn and grow from them.

    As I have said before I believe the world would be a better place if people’s spiritual journey was their own and they stopped joining churches. I believe you’re now on your own spiritual journey, that it is very different from mine but no less valid. I believe the only measure of a person is their actions regardless of belief; a saying goes: good people do good, bad people do bad, but to get good people to do bad one needs (organised) religion (aka churches).

  130. Michael, I’m not looking for a leader, nor have I ever viewed Marty as such.

  131. Take a win Tony! He isn’t exactly sitting in any winners circle! He is the most infamous and notorious figure in this Scientology theater. He has FAR MORE enemies than friends. That means he is insolvent. Bankrupt. He falls on the greenbacks for support and solutions. He is surrounded by and serviced by mercenaries. Cha ching cha ching he pays dearly for support, information, litigation, bad choices and trained voices. Let’s count the ways David Miscavige has failed.

    He has failed to imprison Mike, Marty and Karen.
    He has failed to extinguish us.
    He has failed to run and can’t have with the Scientology on us.
    He has failed to blow me and my family off the bridge.
    He has failed to release OTlX, X, and Xl.
    He has failed to open the Super Power building.

    feel free to chime in………..

  132. Yep – good point. He cannot stand seeing the Rathbun family happy! Deer, woods, friends, good times. THIS MUST STOP.
    So it’s “Marty has changed! He is…” Come on, people.

  133. Laughter! I’m moving to your table.

  134. I agree Mike. Well said.
    And, I am happy the thumbs up and down are missing… I think these are good for ascertaining how flavorful a cereal might taste, but otherwise are distracting. At least to me.

  135. “You could have taken the money and ran a long ago… I never forget that.”

    Amen, Tony. Marty, that one thing speaks multitudes for your character.

  136. Yes, I have seen something like this on Facebook, but I am not really active there about this, since I see no need to bother my multitude of non-Scn friends with the sausage-making reality of getting our shit together. But declaring someone “X” condition really, really rankles me, and then taking a personal beef and plastering the forums with “I am declaring YOU, Joe Doakes, a condition of TREASON against ME.” Rubbish. That is just dumb.

    Pulling out of the many-faceted world that is “Scientology” and reassessing what really is important is a very necessary and sometimes painful activity. It is easy to go with the flow and echo what you hear around you while doing training or auditing – so that 80% of what “Scientology” is to you ends up being dross that really has nothing to do with the tech or core. It is easy to drop into short-hand like “My 2D” and “Oh well, he dropped the body” or “She’s in lowers to me.” I mean, it is bullshit, but this is what happens.

    Yet, civility and manners are NOT mutually exclusive with Scientology. In fact, ARC is what should be the hallmark of a Scientologist. Granting of beingness. Helping people. Caring. My ideal Scientologists have always been auditors, not SO members or staff members or reges, or PCs, or IAS members, or WISE members. Because auditors – the good ones – just naturally grant beingness and spread love. You can feel it. You know it. I never met a good auditor I didn’t like. You can’t audit and be a jerk. Not for long, anyway. So this is my reality about it.

  137. One of those who see

    Double Amen. Brilliant Oracle!!!!!!!!!!!

  138. I’ve been involved with a number of 3rd Dynamics in this life. Boarding College, the public service, the army and then 10 years on staff. They have all been potentially volitile with the make up of the members in them, and one for one great amounts of discipline are applied or expected to be applied to keep them in line and that’s not even mentioning the younger school years. It is unfortunately true that ruthless personalities act like a stable datum and when they get in positions of power align their members with a “terrorizing calm.” The cult of Scientology developed because no one did anything to stop it that was effective, even though we were warned over and over again with KSW1. I know I was well and truly ground to pooh before I woke up.
    The insatible desire of thetans to alter is can always be relied upon and anyone who expects an easy ride with anything resembling truth is deluding themselves.
    I truly believe Scientology is the best chance we have of getting a handle on life and a solution to its woes – but geezes, look what happened to it! People like Marty, Jim Logan and Steve Hall etc I reckon are trying hard to pick up the pieces.
    There will always be those who will try to smash anything down they can get a comm line into. The price of freedom is an doingness not a thinkingness.
    Even after 26 years of being around Scientology tech I still find aspects of it I find I have misunderstood and it changes my viewpoint or aspects of it – those who are so definitive about it I treat with caution, especially those whose attributes are based on rumor, ignorance, innuendo and how bad it all is. It’s a tough enough universe anyway even without the truth.

  139. I like your writing. You’ve been alive and communicating and you are a survivor… you won’t stop… when they all think you’re dead, you say something.

    And you’re expanding and interrelating and tolerating and communicating with and reveling with other viewpoints. That’s sanity and the appreciation of that is the joy of living.

    The idea that we all had when we became involved with Scientology was that this was not going to be an authoritarian activity, we were to be “free people”! But the group has always had authoritarian command; it has always has been so; once under generally benign leadership, but less and less so, and not just beginning with DM’s “reign”.

    I had great wins with Scientology auditing before I began my staff career. Most of the days that I spent of staff had a good dose of “WTF???” in them, not as a reaction to what was going on in the outside world, but in response to what was going on within our own ranks. The subjects of Scientology Tech and Scientology admin are completely different subjects; the latter a beautiful subject where it does align with the Axioms and Logics and a creator of seething pools of bypassed charge when it enforces arbitraries, authoritarianism and not-isness.

    For many of us, I think, there’s a big mix of that Scientology admin world that might take a bit to untangle from, that world of talking derogatorily of others, of penances and punishments, of continual emergencies and threats, of evaluating and labeling and shooting first and maybe never getting around to asking questions later, with forests of pink legs sticking out, etc.

    “The basic individual is not a buried, unknown or a different person, but an intensity of all that is best and most able in the person, minus the pain and dramatization.” (Ron, Handbook for PCs)

    That’s the way I like to think of Scientology as a whole. There’s an intensity of all that is best and most able in it, and the best things of Scientology are what it is. And these other things are not what it is. As an example, Disconnection and Fair Game were not ever really Scientology despite their creation by LRH. They were not Scientology; they were arbitrary solutions that were intended to suppress confusions on a short term basis. Scientology-wise; disconnection and fair game are not-is procedures.

    “Axiom 18: The static, in practicing not-isness, brings about the persistence of unwanted existences, and so brings about unreality, which includes forgetfulness, unconsciousness and other undesirable states.”

    Something like a tourniquet. In short term use, they save lives. Neglect to resolve the real problem soon and you loose the limb and, perhaps a life.

    “Understand thoroughly the principle that the amount of Theta in the group
    materially determines the longevity, greatness and general survival of that group and its members and that the amount of EnTheta in the group determines its proximity to death, and thus have done with the casualnesses and insincerities existing in a low toned outer society.” (italics mine.)

    I am sure all of us have thought at different times, “How are we going to bring sanity to the planet if we can’t even handle our own messes?” Well, we can! And, I think, more and more of us, but I think we handle more things better if we use the Auditor’s Code much more often than the ethics codes.

    Scientologists, I think, should be in the full-time business of admiring what is right in this world, we should be in the business of as-isness. Not-isness is just so unworkable!

  140. I hear you Michael.

    Permit me to explain how this could be a unified front.

    Hubbard said something to effect of, A team mate always knows what the others and doing and thinking and coordinates thereby and therewith. Right there, who in the Sea Org has a clue what DM is doing and thinking? When your “group member” ensures you do NOT have a clue what they are doing and thinking, there is no team mate home.

    Marty is up front about what he is doing and thinking. Who ever is following the blog knows what he is doing and thinking and co ordination is voluntary. Therefore SINCERE. Whoever flies off the page with the others states so and vanishes like Houdini. Usually for three to five days. That’s O.K..

    True group.

    true – definition of true by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and …

    1.a. Consistent with fact or reality; not false or erroneous. b. Truthful.
    2. Real; genuine.

    Not going to fill up the page with the entire essay, but a few points:

    January 1951

    4. A group member must exert and insist upon his rights and prerogatives as a group member and insist upon the rights and prerogatives of the group as a group and let not these rights be diminished in any way or degree for any excuse or claimed expeditiousness.

    8. A group member must coordinate his initiative with the goals and rationale of the entire group and with other individual members, well publishing his activities and intentions so that all conflicts may be brought forth in advance.

    13. On the group member depends the height of the ARC of the group. He must insist upon high level communication lines and clarity in affinity and reality and know the consequence of not having such conditions. AND HE MUST WORK CONTINUALLY AND ACTIVELY TO MAINTAIN HIGH ARC IN THE ORGANIZATION.

    There are many more points, and this was one of the sanest pieces of Hubbard’s with regards to administration that I ever read.

    I do not think for a minute that this is not a true group.

    Just because a few people voice disagreement here and there. and announce they are no longer in support or do not some support some idea does not indicate serious fragmentation.

    Lastly, just as there are times a person has to stop and find out who they really are, this works on flows, and you have to find out who others really are too. That is not possible without exchange of words or actions.

    Marty is a writer. An auditor. A consultant to people seeking to KNOW or KNOW ABOUT. An educator. And one who has mastered the art of enlightenment across certain dynamics. Just for starters. He is not that I can see, in any military position or personifying military ambitions or strategies or games that would require a duty to create a front.

    You are a writer too. I recall reading your declaration of Independence and I was riveted!

    Everyone that posts here, is a writer. This is a writers group. Plagiarism isn’t popular among writers because you are expected to at least create your own voice.

    The pen is mightier that the sword.

    David Miscavige pays speech writers and covertly views through hidden lenses to communicate to the world. He does not belong in a writers group and never will.

    It’s all just different. I think you belong here very well and I love to read the things you write. And I think it is a true group.

  141. Another reason I don’t add my voice is because I know that I don’t always express myself in writing well.

    You expressed yourself perfectly, Meccanno. It was good to hear from you. (And ditto on the “Judgment” article — took guts for Marty to tackle that one so directly.)

  142. Very well said. LRH is not God. Heck, not even God is God!

  143. …morphed from analog to digital.

    Haha, but what a great way to put it!

    It went from vinyl to MP3! 🙂

  144. Marty

    I am disappointed that there seem to be various “factions” forming amongst those Scientologists who have left the “mother church”. Unfortunately it was pretty much guaranteed to happen.

    For me, the question is not “which Scientology group one belongs to”, but rather, “are one’s actions aligned with the creation of optimum survival, across the dynamics, as you envision it?”

    I am of the mind that more “inclusion” is more valid as a policy for improving one’s dynamics, rather than more “exclusion”. This does not mean, in any way, that one should “go into ARC” with everything and everybody, at all times. Rather, one should embrace the concept of being willing to experience anything, (or nothing at all) and also be willing to hold his own self-determined viewpoint and to make his own evaluations.

    We will go much further by embracing “what we can agree on with others”, and using that agreement to forward common goals.

    But let me get personal for a moment.

    I consider that the value of what you have done towards releasing the practice of Scientology technologies from the monopoly of Miscavige’s Scientology, and the opening of the Philosophy behind them to honest and open discussion, is pretty much unparalleled by any other entity to date, aside from L. Ron Hubbard himself. And you have held that door open in spite of massive interference, vicious attacks, and personal risk.

    Others have also contributed greatly in this effort, and they I also thank.

    Scientology will survive so long as its technologies and philosophy are understood and used. That there are several variations in its understandings, and its uses, merely broadens its reach. The only shame is when Scientology is not used or when it is used to harm instead of help, either through ignorance or intent.

    In the end it comes down to, “how well are your dynamics becoming the optimum that you envision for them?”.

    All else is distraction.

    Eric S

  145. I heard some about this crap a couple days ago but frankly paid little attention. I read all the Stone Sheep (rare breed incidentally) head butting on the “Judgement” post (still gaining posts) 8 or 10 days ago. So, what, you think OT’s, or for you non-scientologists, able people are never going to see things differently? If you do you live in a mocked up Alice in Wonderland, all the while the rabbit hole continues to get deeper and deeper around you.

  146. Regular Dog formerly Underdog

    I wrote my comment above about surveys because there were surveys recently on this blog that someone didn’t like.

  147. Marty,

    I’ve consistently watched you maintain a very straight and steady path in a worthy direction, going on nearly four years running.

    It has no doubt involved countless hours of painstaking work and research, real-world risks to you and yours and probably more personal, financial output than you’d ever care to share.

    That, to me, is a high ethical standard.

    Frankly, I love the open dialogue you bring to this blog. In addition, the survey stuff is not only welcome, it is informative. I probably get the biggest cogs from the contributive comments.

    Thanks for this outstanding product!


  148. Gah! Another + gazillion!

  149. Wow, that was excellently put and very sincere, thanks for that!
    Yes, Marty’s blog does get one to think for himself.

  150. Awesome, Mike. I wanna hug you for this post. 🙂

  151. One of those who see

    My goodness! All you wonderful beings out there who were willing, by no small miracle to read a book by LRH and have the courage to go to an org and see what was going on. You who had a “need of change.” Just knowing that about you, my ARC is there. That includes Captain Bill and David Mayo and the Freezoners and the brave first Independents back in the 80’s and Ron’s org. It includes all of us here and our heros Marty, Mike, Steve etc…And those still in the church who are blind at the moment, struggling, scared of the alternative etc…And those who have decided – I am no longer a Scientologist. Still, why not stay in ARC.

    I got into Scientology for Freedom. Let’s keep the FORCE out of Scientology and win. If you disagree with another’s opinions or actions, no one is stopping you from communicating, hatting etc…But, that is all we have out here. No declares, no enforced comm cycles, no enforced auditing actions, sec checks or condition assignments. THANK GOODNESS! And please keep in mind that MAN IS BASICALLY GOOD.

    Marty is right out there through this Blog and his books telling us his viewpoints on Scientology and various other subjects. He is very courageous. We can read it or not. post comments or not. He is not enforcing anything.
    I do have compassion for those who are having trouble with all this freedom. It is something to get used to. I certainly have had my considerations at times. But I have to agree with Mr. Jefferson:”I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.”

  152. Excellent! Thank you!

  153. Great articulation of points. I only balked at one thing you had to say: the fruit cake. Ewwww!

  154. Simple Thetan, I didn’t think Marty was defending himself, but more as seeing, looking at what is there and speaking up.
    “am not seeing much reasoned debate with them. Instead, I am seeing Scientology Inc. style undercutting, back biting, rumor milling, questioning of the source of views. The dead agent caper. David Miscavige and OSA are having a field day with this coffee klatch mentality.”
    I like that the thumbs are off for my own personal pleasure in being able to save some time. Not that I speak much anyway as I’ve been more of a lurker, but am interested in your discussions and comments.

  155. Dammit Natalie, once I’ve read yours and so many other brilliant posts, I won’t have anything brilliant to add.
    Thank you for what you have added.

  156. “The best way out is through.” Robert Frost, poet

  157. Indeed, Marty recently said he has no price. Though it is said that everyone has a price, Marty’s integrity is not for sale. I think we can all relate to that and find points where we are not for sale either.

  158. Nat, you’re not only funny, beautiful and a great person to hang with, you really have your shit together and you’re damned smart!

  159. Ok Marty, here’s my rant. I’m not big on rants, but I feel one coming on:

    Recently it seemed like the blog was getting enturbulated. People were arguing and fighting more than usual. I thought it may have had something to do with the content, but more likely I realized there was something amiss with the ratings system. I discovered and notified you on your blog that it was possible for one person to give multiple ratings on a post (confirmed by Steve Hall) thereby “stoking fires”, causing disagreements and ARC breaks where there were none and functioning as a third party tool for someone (OSA?). You have now apparently corrected this.

    I publicly resigned from the church on this blog. I use my picture and real name every time I write something. I have never started or spread any rumors or “Black PR” on anyone including you. I was a little stirred up and confused by some of your recent blog posts. You are not my “leader”, but I had the idea you were into standard tech and I thought your purpose (relating to this blog and Scientology) was to de-fang Miscavige so that Scientolgy could be free to use and the independent field could then be free of that suppression. I didnt ask you to do that, but you started on that road yourself and it seemed like you were the best man for the job.

    I was getting the idea that you were going in another direction I didnt understand and that it might be somewhat anti-LRH, which is fine, I wouldnt try to tell you what to believe, but I’m sure you can recognize that this might be an ARC break for some. So, then, after writing I dont know how many things on this blog over the years I write my initial thought (“I think Tony Ortega has taken over the blog”) after reading you last blog post. What I meant by that was the blog was reading a bit like Tony Ortega, not that I literally thought he had taken it over. OK, maybe that one I should have kept to myself, but jesus…

    This whole thing sickens me. You have created a mob-rules lynching. You took my comm, interpreted it in the worst possible way and used it against me, accusing me of spreading black pr and being a coward without even responding to my original post and giving me the chance to respond to your assumptions. To me that is cult-like behavior and is not what your are preaching here dude. You say you are trying to teach people to debate instead of attack while you are lynching me over one post. If you have any evidence I have “Black PR”ed you or anything of the sort lets see it. What I am seeing lately is if someone disagrees with you, you fry them (unless they become submissive) and then they stop posting.

    Marty, out of the hundreds of posts I’ve made here have I ever done anything close to attacking you, or black PR’ing you or anyone else? Why the fuck would you do this? It’s brutal and bizzare and confusing to me, and so goddamn “serious”.

    The only time I have talked to you was right after I resigned from the Church. My family and friends were disconnecting from me, the Church was black PRing me and (working with my brother in-law) had convinced my wife to kick me out of the house and I was a little freaked out. You told me I sounded too serious and to go take a walk, which turned out was what I needed at that moment.

    PS: You told Tony Dephillips you never said you wanted to “bring down” Miscavige? You declared war on Miscavige when you started your blog and put up your “31 Factors” and have been fighting him since. You have had a major hand in delivering repeated crippling blows to the Church and Miscavige since The Truth Rundown. If you dont want to call it “bringing down Miscavige” and have a fancier name for it, fine.

  160. Maybe the guy who coined (or as freezoners assert, re-coined) the term Independent Scientologist doesn’t qualify for membership.”
    Personally I think the above statement is a CROK OF SHIT! I’m just sayin….

  161. It dulls the tip of the spear to broaden the scope of a viewpoint? Pounding day after day on the same topic dulls the senses. Much as I enjoy a good DM roasting, it is not the mainstay of my life. It actually gets tiresome after awhile. DM will eventually fall and we will have a good celebration when that happens. Meanwhile, if that event is the focus of our existence, we have already fallen to an unhealthy obsession. There is so much more to life than the quotidian existance of a small time religious leader of a bizarre cult-church whom most people in the world have never heard of.

    Are you more interested in the sensationalism of DM’s insanity or the beauty of Van Gogh’s aesthetic contributions to human beauty? What does your choice between these answers reflect about you?


  162. This post has elicited more heartfelt, intelligent and interesting comments than any I can recall. And from an astonishingly broad spectrum of people.

    And it is interesting that many address the subject of living life.

    To me, THIS is what defines Scientology. And ironically in light of my earlier comment, I want to share something that I read in FOT yesterday because I think it is highly relevant.

    “Scientology used by the trained and untrained person, can improve the health, intelligence, ability, behavior, skill and appearance of people.

    It is also employed by the average person to bring better order into life.

    It is used, as well, by the individual at home or at his work to make a better life.”

    I also believe that what Marty has made possible with this blog is a 3rd Dynamic. It is a void for many who leave the RCS — for months, years or decades they have considered the church to be a significant part of their Third Dynamic. And then, it’s gone. And this blog allows you to connect again with people and share things of common interest. So, it has value and threats to it stir up hostility. For me, it has served this purpose and continues to do so. Those I interact with here are the people I consider to be an important part of my 3D. And the different viewpoints have opened my eyes to a lot of things and I would not change that for all the tea in China.

  163. I very much enjoyed reading your point of view!

  164. If someone is reporting to you that there is “alarm” being fueled, then that is very much like Scientology, Inc.

    If people have questions or experiences, and observed things with which they disagree or don’t fully understand, it is anyone’s right to communicate honestly about it to you and/or with friends.

    An important distinction needs to be made about comm and that is: What is the intention.

    Some questions are asked out of genuine sincerity and a desire to reconcile conflicting info.

    A person can talk about me to anyone and it is no business of mine if the intention is one of good will and not some other agenda. A person can even dislike me, and it is none of my business — unless such person is unfairly trying to harm my life or loved ones.

    In Scientology Inc, it was made ‘everyone’s business’ to have a thought or question about anyone. This is mind and behavior control. Unfortunately, a distinction becomes lost in that process. The crucial distinction is: A question and even a doubt does not equal a critical or hostile thought. questions and doubt are allowed — or should be — among sane, fair, truth-seeking and benevolent people!

    The one great failing of Scientology Inc is its management’s lack of trust in its own purported products! Product: a person who can see and think and act and be pan-determined. Scientology Inc management does not perceive or even believe it is possible for people to come to their own conclusions and be true to their own integrity about what they have observed and experienced.

    Part of that process is communicating — with anything and everything one chooses to.

    As for people directly disagreeing with or questioning the personal views and practices of Marty R. on this blog, some have and do. Many are pounced on and attacked for doing so — which means the ones with genuine, well-meaning questions are not getting answers they seek in good faith.

    Some posts on this blog also commend Marty for being true to LRH and sticking to “standard tech”.

    This blog has also discussed others not using tech ‘standardly’ — from this one could infer that Marty (the blog host) applies tech in a manner that — perhaps– he himself would call robotic.

    Important distinction # 2: Being robotic applying Scientology is not the same thing as applying the procedures purely as they exist.

    There’s nothing wrong with communication. There’s nothing wrong with talking to others about others. There’s nothing wrong with questions. THE determining factor is the intention behind the comm. In Scientology Inc as well as among those who have left the corporate climate, communication is suppressed and perverted. A bizarre squasher lingers that to express a question and/or to doubt is a hostile act. It isn’t.

    The only “significance” doubt has is: data is missing. Pure & simple. No other significance, no offense, no conspiracy, etc.

    The real bottom line is …the intention and purpose of communications. What is the goal? That, too, varies among individuals.

    As for the group “Independent Scientologists” — there is a variety of practices among members, and then there are some who do indeed practice Scientology with all the bells and whistles (i.e., aids and gradients) to the goal of ….a happy, integrated, productive, aware, free being.

    Marty is an exceptionally able being who obviously is dedicated to a desire to understand Life. He is getting hit from many sides for being there and communicating. It would behoove anyone to talk about him — questions, disagreements, concerns, dislike or whatever — with love.

    “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” -Aristotle

  165. Why “cut it dead” Karen#1? Isn’t that what Scientology Inc teaches — their misunderstood application of “cutting entheta lines” — to cut questions and doubt dead?

    All questions and all doubt are not entheta. Most are opportunities for understanding and greater truth. I aspire to listen lovingly and fairly, with an attempt to determine truth.

  166. Hi Marty,
    What is the “back channel”?
    Is it communicating about stuff that is said on this blog directly with others outside of this blog? Or is there more to it?

  167. I think you are a great guy Chris. You have the confront to communicate and I enjoy your comm.

  168. “…Tony Ortega has taken over the blog.”

    ROFL. LOL! come on! hahaha Naw! Tony Ortega could never riff on Zen, pirouette on Plato, question the quantum, hallelujah Hubbard, hip the hop, proliferate the poetry and Tribute Truth the way that only the unmistakably walk the walk Marty Rathbun can!!

  169. Interesting viewpoint Tom.

  170. Hear! Hear!

  171. Love your story and how you think!

  172. I agree Mike.
    I love the kind of people that Scientology drew into it. Some may be judgemental…:-) but they can also be some of the smartest and kindest and interesting people around. And yes, OT’s and trained people and heck, most people I guess, can be pretty stuborn sometimes. It sure is fun having this venue to air things out.
    By the way Marty, if you ever need a person to talk to I am available. Not that I presume you would need and want help from me. But I think you are a valuable guy and offer my help to you should you ever need and want it.

  173. Marty

    Yes, attacking another is always an attempt by the attacker to overwhelm the other person’s viewpoint or self determinism. It rarely creates much Theta, nor does it generally lead to increased understanding.

    Eric S

  174. Wow, another Hear, Hear!

  175. Nice Eric.

  176. Wise words, Tony. And so well-stated.
    Scott Gordon

  177. Well, I’m not privy to any ‘outside channel’ discussions, so this is all new to me.

    I read this blog everyday, usually more than once so I can follow the comments, and every time I do so something causes me to reconsider something. I’ve noticed what some may consider a gradual shift ‘away’ from what they found most attractive, but I don’t think that there is any shift ‘away’ from anything. To me I see a widening inclusion, so to speak; more is being included, not an abandoning of previous views. And to me, this is exactly what Scientology and Scientologists are supposed to do; go out and expand; to become more inclusive of other areas in their life. LRH says we should play the game better, and may be exactly what is going on here, as far as I’m concerned. If I don’t necessarily share that particular avenue, it’s no big deal, that is how it is with everyone I’ve ever known; admin scales align for a while, then the don’t, and I move on, and in doing so nothing prior is in anyway invalidated. I’m not saying that is the case here, it’s not, but I can see how an inclusion of other parts of life into a blog such as this could be misconstrued as a ‘shift’ when it is really an expansion.

    To me, and to others here, this blog has been a stable datum of sorts, and exactly ‘what’ it is the stable datum for may vary to some extent from person to person. If people ‘see’ the discussion start to include ‘other’ areas, they may consider that it is moving away from what they consider the reason they come here; their own stable datum. Of course, confusion results. Hence noise. Basic tech.

    For me, this blog was, and still is, how I learn what happened, how the destruction came about, and how the insanity continues to this day. I think it is utterly, utterly vital for us to keep abreast of this craziness since it affected us all, and still does; it is something we need to know. In addition, this blog has it’s finger on a pulse, a pulse that helps me see just how much life we have in us, it is a ‘gatherer’ of sorts, the living room of Scientologists from around the world.

    I suspect that from Marty’s comments above; the ones to the effect that he is not separating out the CofS from Scientologists, or Indies, something like that, well, to me, we all carry forth some of the box we were stuck in while in the CofS. I doubt anyone of us is really freed from it all. So, when comments re the CofS also include Indies, well, of course they do! “GPM” tech; you can’t escape what you oppose.

    Marty’s surveys, his inclusion of poems, whatever, I don’t think are a shift. To me, just me perhaps, they are an inclusion, which is sane, and is also what that very imperfect person, LRH, wanted. Maybe Marty is growing too, moving up higher himself, who knows.

    Anyway, that’s my 2 cents. I’ll keep popping in for my daily fix; to reinvigorate my stable datums. And, if for some reason as part of his own growth, Marty does start to include areas of his life that don’t include me, well, so be it; he’ll always be someone who was instrumental in my own growth, my own enlightenment, and so will always very well thought of, as will everyone who ever posts here.

    But that day ain’t arrived yet!

  178. Thanks newcomer, Margaret, palehorsey and Jewel. You have all made me feel very welcome here. I might just say more in the future 🙂

  179. Claudio,

    Spot on. Scn is about use and auditing and case gain and cognitions, etc., etc.. The disease that infected the Co$ was, imo, not seeing that simplicity. Scn requires common sense and proper auditing technique, and personal care. This is dumb of me, but I just “got” that Marty’s blog was a significant factor in ‘freeing’ you. So whether “I like Marty or Marty likes me” doesn’t matter all that much – I’m sending some more contribution to defray expenses. One of the great beauties of free-market capitalism is that no one really understands how it all seems to work out into the best solutions (usually), and how people acting freely of their own common sense and purposes seem to accomplish the most (usually).


  180. Brillian Haydn. I would love to hear you expand on these thoughts even more.
    What I see now here in the Indie movement is real Scientology in action, in a way that can lead to great results. Hot debate, Independent auditors applying the tech and creating free thinkers. Peopel not afraid and molded like sheep but people with some courage to speak up and get some stuff done.

  181. Oh, the;

    “I suspect that from Marty’s comments above; the ones to the effect that he is not separating out the CofS from Scientologists, or Indies, something like that,”

    may sound like I thought Marty was saying that of himself, which is not the case. I could have written it better …

  182. I agree wholeheartedly.

  183. By the way everybody;

    “Nancy Many’s Life in Scientology Dramatized on January 16 Investigation Discovery Series”

    Verrryyyy interesting times ahead.

  184. Like your reality about it, as it was always mine too.
    I’ll never forget when I started hanging around flag in ’11, after many years out, I only encountered one real auditor, who after having a small list done, whenever I saw her around always smiled and was nice to me. Two others, from other countries, were polite until, to my great surprise, asked for money and manners changed completely when I refused politely. One was after a great touch assist, the other was after an event by the pool and wanted to converse with me. Times had changed and turning auditors into reg’s seem a crime.

  185. Well! A lot has been said on this blog post already. Most of it seems cathartic.

    I think some of the tenancy to criticize motives in others from all this communication is a natural result of the medium. We hear people express views and we engage in those expressions without any real confirmation of tone and emotion on the internet. We think we understand how someone thinks because of words alone. And when they surprise us we get thrown for a spin.

    I’ve let it happen y to

  186. Excellent comment.
    Very well written also. 🙂

  187. Jewel

    And let’s not forget the philosophy behind Scientology ,the spring from which all of Scientology flows.
    Eric S

  188. Well! A lot has been said on this blog post already. Most of it seems cathartic.

    I think some of the tendency to criticize motives in others from all this communication is a natural result of the medium. We hear people express views and we engage in those expressions without any real confirmation of tone and emotion on the internet. We think we understand how someone thinks because of words alone. And when they surprise us we get thrown for a spin.

    I’ve let it happen too. It’s important to realize that this is not the perfect way too communicate.

  189. Meccano, you are not alone in that…
    Regarding the Judgment thread, depending how you looked at it, could be the best or the worst and certainly provoked results. Yes, Marty was brave. I wouldn’t have guessed on that one.

  190. 1) I see Marty as an active, productive full time auditor -. That is the most important criteria in my eyes. That is stable datum – it does not change.

    2) I see Marty as a public figure making himself known – publishing his viewpoint, so we all can group one way or another around the terminal he positioned himself to be. Even if he does not lead us somewhere particular, as Misha feels, Marty has created and continues to create a space for us all to communicate with each other and be a group. That is stable datum too.

    3) The mentioned problem is coming not from Marty, but from comments signed by unknown fake names. Like recently “Helmut Flasch” did not seem to me to be the one. There are trolls, there are enemies writing comments with evil intentions to disturb, to upset and to ARC brake.

    Solution: Take on the account only the replies from known people under their known and confirmed names when you are positive about who the real people were. And disregard those posted anonymously, especially if negative or provocative in their nature.

  191. WindWalker said:
    “I am disappointed that there seem to be various “factions” forming amongst those Scientologists who have left the “mother church”. Unfortunately it was pretty much guaranteed to happen.

    For me, the question is not “which Scientology group one belongs to”, but rather, “are one’s actions aligned with the creation of optimum survival, across the dynamics, as you envision it?”

    This is a great point. I had the idea of Scientologists that can grant beingness to “wogs” but cannot grant beingness to other Scientologists who don’t think the way they do. It’s a funny subject. I know when you have a lot of ARC for someone and then they don’t agree with you on a certain subject it can be upsetting. I think it would behoove everyone including Scientologists who have left the cult, to be willing to grant beingness to Indies , “squirrels” ( whatever that means to you), “wogs” etc. The only way to get change is through good ARC communication.
    So, you may be the most “KSW” boy around , but if you can’t grant beingness to the Freezoner, can you really change the world??
    My point is you can be right and you can make things the way you want them to be, if you grant beingness and are convincing in your discussions with others.

  192. Here’s a short story by Mark Twain that might help give some perspective…


  193. That would be great. IN 🙂

  194. WindWalker said:
    “I am disappointed that there seem to be various “factions” forming amongst those Scientologists who have left the “mother church”. Unfortunately it was pretty much guaranteed to happen.

    For me, the question is not “which Scientology group one belongs to”, but rather, “are one’s actions aligned with the creation of optimum survival, across the dynamics, as you envision it?”

    This is a great point. I had the idea of Scientologists that can grant beingness to “wogs” but cannot grant beingness to other Scientologists who don’t think the way they do. It’s a funny subject. I know when you have a lot of ARC for someone and then they don’t agree with you on a certain subject it can be upsetting. I think it would behoove everyone including Scientologists who have left the cult, to be willing to grant beingness to Indies , “squirrels” ( whatever that means to you), “wogs” etc. The only way to get change is through good ARC communication.
    So, you may be the most “KSW” boy around , but if you can’t grant beingness to the Freezoner, can you really change the world??
    My point is you can be right and you can make things the way you want them to be, if you grant beingness and are convincing in your discussions with others.

  195. Amen sister. I couldn’t agree with you more!

  196. Wonderfully stated, David!

  197. +1000

  198. Marty, I well remember your first (and only ☺) few posts on ESMB, where you offered (among other things) an excellent (IMO) critique on FDSing.

    Not long after that, a mob formed to lynch you there, led by someone who later turned out to be married to an OSAbot from CC Int.. Surprise, surprise!

    I’ve seen you change your opinions on stuff since (and disagreed with them probably more than I’ve agreed) but I’m bemused by the invective hurled at you (I haven’t read many of the comments) – you stated back in those ESMB posts pretty much what you’ve carried through in this blog.

    Maybe those who say “You’ve changed!” should go read them, and see the dogpile that was thrown at you after that.

    After all, we all changed as we grow and get better educated by life.

    Unless we’re fanatics, locked into a fanciful past and a hallucinatory “glorious future.”

  199. Mecccano, consider speaking up more often. You don’t need training to have experience, an opinion, even wisdom, and you express yourself very well.

  200. How perfectly put! I dido all that.

    Keep at it Marty. You are making waves, ruffling some feathers. Good!

    And thanks Natalie. Excellent!

  201. Tip of the Spear? 95%?

    Peter, i respectfully disagree. Constantly attacking DM/Cof$ is of limited utility in my opinion. Sure, truth should be exposed and guys like Marty, Mike Rinder, and Steve hall have been doing that in spades.

    But lets not delude ourselves that attack alone is effective, let alone worthwhile. DM has billions in reserve. Even if his ever clubbable flock departed completely, he can weather just about any storm just with the interest on that principal.

    The real value here, in my opinion is helping others to think for themselves and get free–the orginal purpose of Scientology. Like Stalin, Hitler, or Mao, DM will be the head of that church until he dies. I refuse to live my life as an op-term to that freak, and i cant blame Marty if he refuses that role as well.

    That this community exists and grows, in any form, is sufficient spear into the sucking void that is the heart of DM. I suggest we all enjoy and get on with our lives. After all, that is what the DM’s of this universe cant abide………….

  202. “Don’t explain. Your enemies won’t believe it and your friends don’t need it.” – Albert Hubbard, LRH’s Great Uncle.

    True Indies and Real Scientologist Don’t Believe It.
    And Marty, Don’t Explain, We Don’t need it.

    Thank you for continuing to commit this biggest of crimes, being here and communicating.
    Steve Poore

  203. Amazing comment Andy! I agree wholeheartedly! And I totally second both Mr. DePhillips and Tara’s acks to your comment!

  204. Wow Watchful Navigator, your comment is right on! Sweet! And I too second what Tara and palehorsey wrote! Lol!

  205. Thanks for your post Mecccano. In my opinion a very important corollary to the freedom to communicate, is the freedom to NOT communicate. I know that some here, even some of the “leading lights” that i respect immensely, seem to put down the “lurkers.” They may have a valid point from their perspective, ie someone trying to gen up support or action for something, but in the big scheme of things an individual has to keep their own counsel and act accordingly. Peace.

  206. Palehorsey, you took the words right out of my mouth! I am totally rolling on the floor lmbo! I should be in bed sleeping now but I can’t resist reading everyone’s comments. It’s hilarious to see that there can be 100% agreement when something is obviously positively right! Lol

  207. Me too Palehorsey! 🙂

  208. Coming from you Mike I take that as a huge compliment, thank you.

  209. Very nice Natalie. By the way, “I can’t sleep if my closet door is open, and I like to read books about the zombie apocalypse.”, those could be related… (just kidding) 🙂

  210. Jethro Bodine

    I like it when people think for themselves. At the end of the day, isn’t that what Scientology is all about? What I don’t like to see is what Jefferson Hawkins refers to as “quoting instead of thinking”. Throwing out at a verbatim LRH quote with the exact line number will get you nowhere in the Wog world. Besides, if you really conceptually understand something, you should be able to state it clearly in your own words.


  211. Dizzy Mizz Lizzy

    How right you are. Marty could have taken the money and run a long time ago. The same applies to Mike Rinder. They didn´t do that. – That is more than admirable and I too never forget that.

    Frankly I find it a great relief that Marty is able to and willing to think and express his OWN unauthorized thoughts. It helps me do the same.

    Just keep doing, what you´re doing Marty – you´re much appreciated far and wide!

  212. I call this things “KSW-PTSnes”,if we realize that DMs Church is suppressive the next question should be…..
    Tommy Ståhl

  213. Bingo! You hit the nail on the head. When I read this blog, there are moments when the old “LFBD” knock me right out of my chair. Your comments echo what has kept me coming back to Marty’s “breakfast table”.

  214. “The true believer” by Eric Hoffer

    I found the book “The True Believer by Eric Hoffer to be of immense value in self-reflection when I left the cult 18 years ago. It deconstructs the elements of obsession and fanaticism that are so often implanted into people when they are in cults and other coercive groups, and I think it is very helpful for people to read when leaving such oppressive environments. This seems applicable to the current developments in the Indy field, and is also applicable to critics who engage in continual mean-spirited bashing.

    Reference here: http://freedomkeys.com/truebeliever.htm

    I applaud and support Marty in his continued journey, as I applaud and support all those who have had the courage to leave an oppressive cult behind, and forge a path to freedom. This reflects the triumph of the ability of the human spirit to overcome darkness.

    As Steve Biko said in his book “I write what I like” – “The most potent weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed.” If we free our minds, we free ourselves from the chains of oppression.


  215. If a “Reformation Church of Scientology” would be created some of the old Church of Scientology would „reform“ and go to the new church. Then they would continue what they had done in the old Church. Geting out as much money as possible, harm as many followers as possible and then move on the the next movement. It is not always OSA. I think they plan to undermine and destroy and wonder that it’s done already and scratching their heads „who the hell did plan and execute this?“.
    I think that had been the initial failure inside the old Scientology. Everyone looking for a James Bond and not taking into account that not all criminals are organized and sent from a Spy Org.
    Others simply love to destroy as it is their only way to feel alive.

  216. Palehorsey, I understand your point of view. I do not disagree. And the blog is under no requirement to constantly carry a spear or keep it sharp. My points are in relation to the PR and exposure the blog gets and its reach into the scientology world to those still very much connected or on the fence with the church. The topic of the day forum does not get press or make waves, regardless of how much good it does for the participants. Thats all.

  217. I totally agree.

  218. Mike Rinder said:
    They appear to need to be told what to think and how to live and if they can’t find an LRH quote in a book, tape, policy or bulletin they are utterly stumped.

    It’s not that I can’t think without a Quote from LRH, but I love so much of what he said and I think it’s worth sharing some of his thoughts.
    You gotta love this one, Mike:

    “Well, that’s the story of this universe. What’s omitted from all this—that any given instant the thetan can get an idea totally independent of all other ideas. And that’s what puts in randomity into the whole situation.
    And any given idea,any given moment, any given thetan can “thunk” one, independent of everything else that’s going on. Now the psychologist didn’t believe this, so his work is limited. Other earlier philosophers didn’t believe this.
    The idea was never really envisioned, which was independent postulation. He always thought you had to do it on association and they set you up a trap.

    “Well, just because you could always do weird tricks with association is no reason association is a total all of everything. And association, the idea of association, you think of ice cream, you think of a hot day, you think of a child, see? Stream of consciousness, writers call it. And you think of a this and then you—cause that, you thought of a that, and everybody’s got his life all dreamed up as all thoughts were consecutive to an associative base someplace or another which in itself didn’t exist.
    So they don’t ever look for a primary or independent base, therefore they start to predict human behavjor in a very interesting and peculiar way. They predict human behavior along this particular line and say that it is predictable.
    See, they want to predict human behavior so they never recognize that human behavior can be unpredictable as part of its prediction. Part of the prediction of human behavior is the fact that it is unpredictable. And the reason for that is any thetan, at any given time, in any given place, can get a totally independent idea all off his own bat, without any assistance from anything.

    “All right, so we are faced with a problem, then, of the tremendous popularity of irresponsibility: ‘It was all done to me.’ The individual then can conceive so easily in this universe that it was all done to him, that he never had an independent thought, that he never thought of anything that ever had anything to do with anything, that he himself never started an action. You’d be surprised.
    Kleptomaniacs are always pulling this as a defense: that the garment just moved off the counter and into their bag. And they actually say this, and people think they are joking. See, they don’t realize that the kleptomaniac thinks that’s what happened.

    “So, we go on this stimulus-response track looking for answers, forever, you see, and we’re just on an endless treadmill. Of course we come to no full stop until we realize that every being is an independent being who is himself capable of expressing a thought or intention independent of all other thoughts and intentions at any given instant. As soon as we recognize that every individual is capable of himself being causative, we have no, no slightest approach to answers.
    We can’t answer anything. But as soon as we accept that as a basis for action, a basis for thought; as soon as we realize that it’s the degree that an individual can accept or execute causation independent of other influences that brings about his state of case, we then have cracked the whole riddle of philosophy. There’s nothing left to philosophy to be stupid about.”

    “Of course we come to no full stop until we realize that every being is an independent being who is himself capable of expressing a thought or intention independent of all other thoughts and intentions at any given instant.”

    L. Ron Hubbard – “Seven Classifications”, A lecture given on 28 November 1963

    (The whole transcript to be found in the “HUBBARD DISSEMINATION COURSE” package.)

  219. Roger from Switzerland Thought

    “and IF you haven’t found your thetan – chances are you are going to implode because your stable datums will be blown apart by what Wright has to say — and without a ROCK SOLID stable datum (which wasn’t actually TRUTH) in the place of where your thetan should be …

    You are going to implode. ”

    Dear Windhorse,

    You are so right. I’m imploding daily ! It’s not nice but I’ve to go through it and slowly I’m building up my thetan ! 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
    There are so many things I don’t know about, where I just put some LRH Data in the past and now I know I don’t Know and have to find it out. At my age !!!!
    You won’t believe it but young people are teaching me a lot !

  220. Haydn, you would really enjoy the book, ‘Alexis De Tocqueville, The First Social Scientist’ by Jon Elster, specifically the chapter on Revolution.

  221. Roger from Switzerland Thought

    The best gradient would be:

    ” World Citizen”

    We could found a world citizen party ! 🙂

  222. Roger: I am so happy for you. The imploding for me was excruciating — during which I lost everything I owned and only by the grace of my sister did I not end up on the streets … babbling 🙂

    Every day is such an adventure and I work hard not to become so comfortable that I forget to never put some datum in the place of my thetan 🙂 🙂 — and it takes work.

    Life in it’s nakedness is breathtaking. I really wish you well.


  223. Haydn,

    I think part of that analysis should include studying the reasons/motivations for why it switched from “therapy” to “religion” as it did back in the 1950s. I found an interesting letter, recently, from John W. Campbell who was there in the thick of it all. As you probably know, he had been a Board member of the original Hubbard Dianetics Research Foundation in 1950/1951, and aside from an excellent overview of how “unprofessional therapy” was received in those days, he made this remarkable statement:

    “It was, as a matter of fact, I, not Ron, who originally suggested that [Dianetics] should be dropped as a psychotherapy, and reconstituted as a religion.”
    – John W. Campbell in a 1956 letter to Harry Stine, published in “The John W. Campbell Letters, Vol. I” (Kindle Locations 5864-5891).


    Here’s a larger excerpt from the same John W. Campbell letter dated May 16, 1956 to Harry Stine to give some context:

    “Also, I’m well aware that you consider yourself a mild and gentle man. I, of course, know that I am, also. Only you should ask some of your fiends what they think. My friends are all sure I’m an authoritarian, dogmatic, absolutistic, iron-headed dictatorial old bastard.

    “Dr. Bndgeman, in some of his extreme pressure research, made the interesting discovery that he could extrude hard steel into a rubber mold by running the pressure above 200,000 psi. The steel flowed then—and the rubber didn’t.

    “You and I, my friend, are like rubber—nice, mild, gentle stuff . . . until the pressure gets on. Then the best grade of tool steel starts getting squeezed into the shape the rubber holds.

    “Also, you might notice the item the crash research programs have discovered; a human being isn’t hurt at all if you catch him in a nice sheet of automobile steel—but you can scrape him off with a putty-knife if you catch him in a rubber mat.

    “Peg put the whole problem in a nice, neat phrase. (Having encountered it she was in an excellent position to do so. Betcha your beloved wife will like the phrase too.) She said I had ‘the inexorability of a saint.’ That’s the other side of patience, you know.

    “The language channel is completely inadequate, and is going to stay that way, since it isn’t designed for us or our type.

    “Of course I’m an amateur; after 30 years of being a professional amateur in the fields of science, what would you expect me to be?

    “And one of the troubles with your evaluation of things is that you never really caught on to what happened in and with Dianetics. PsychoIogists, not the original Dianetics gang, forced it to assume a professional aspect — when it wasn’t ready. That’s why I got out of the group; I’ve continued during the subsequent years to follow the original amateur research line. Its been enormously effective, too.

    “What you fail to realize is that only religion of all fields of human thought is allowed to be an amateur research. Hubbard’s finally gotten the problems swung around—too late, and in a half-ass fashion— into a religion.

    “Item: No amateur may practice medicine, or study medicine.

    “Item: No amateur may practice psychotherapy, or research psychotherapy.

    “Reason: Nobody but amateurs exist in the fields . . . but they don’t dare admit it, because they’ve claimed to be professionals. Every one of the truly great physicians has known and repeatedly said that he was an amateur who knew nothing for sure. It’s only the greatest, however, who have the courage and the standing to get away with that.

    “Dianetics, right from the start, was getting results that made physicians and professional psychotherapists look silly. Now when a man who says ‘I’m an amateur, just trying to see what can be done in this area,’ starts doing things that the professionals say can’t be done . . . strangely, the professionals get maddern hell. The first thing they tend to do is to force the amateur to admit he’s a professional of some sort—and, of course, they’d prefer to have him admit he’s a professional crook, who isn’t really getting results.

    “Ron Hubbard had most excellent opportunities to institute some Grade A juicy libel suits. It’s a shame, really, that he didn’t have the cash on hand to get the process started, because he could have made a couple of millions just suing psychiatrists and psychologists across the country for libel and slander.

    “I know for a positive fact—and have had written, signed letters to prove it —that psychiatrists were telling their patients that Ron had been committed as insane after Dianetics was published. That constitutes an open-and-shut case of slander and/or libel. Because Ron, just for the record, had gone to the University of Chicago psychometric department, and had a very fine and completely clear record, and had not been institutionalized after Dianetics was published..

    “Though I’ll admit, the psychiatrists damned near did make it come off, for a while.

    “I dropped out of the rat-race, and strongly suggested that Ron do likewise, when it became abundantly clear that there was no use trying to accomplish anything that way. It was, as a matter of fact, I, not Ron, who originally suggested that it should be dropped as a psychotherapy, and reconstituted as a religion. Because only religions are permitted to be amateurs.

    “And it took thousands of years, and vast human suffering, to achieve that. There’ll come a time when science fiction will be an orthodox literature and only properly trained professionals will be considered fit contributors. It’ll probably be under governmental regulation, too— because it will be recognized for what it is: a major cultural tool for reshaping the thinking of the more imaginative and creative citizens, from which group the future leaders inevitably arise.

    “There will then follow a long, long, period before science fiction, having been completely surpassed as a tool of education, will be freed to be an amateur field.”

    (Source: Campbell Jr, J W; Chapdelaine, P. “The John W. Campbell Letters, Vol. I”; Kindle Locations 5864-5891; AC Projects, Inc. Kindle Edition).

  224. Tony – I didn’t actually say he could do whatever he wants to … I said he could stop writing about dm …

    AND as long as he continues to be true to himself WHATEVER that might mean today and tomorrow — that is just fine with me.

    I TRUST Marty therefore IF he stays true to himself, I’m right here.

    BUT, I’m not going to cling to that. IF he doesn’t stay true to himself (who am I to judge? Me 🙂 ) — then I’ll probably wander away …

    Suffering is created by clinging to a belief, person, car, etc or rejecting a person, belief, car etc.

    Whenever I find myself suffering — IF I can get enough distance to actually SEE that I’m clinging or rejecting … the clouds part 🙂


  225. I was completely unknown to Marty before I began posting. And I’ve really enjoyed being able to communicate with him and others here. Now, I don’t know … maybe he regrets that choice. 🙂

    I just think an open forum does more to encourage participation.

  226. i left scientology in 86 or it left me. anyone who got in after 82 missed the better part of scientology,after the sea org was created fascism took over in the movement. i hung in there was benefiting from the auditing. by 86 i said so long.
    i recently thru the internet and being retired got interested again, it was a big part of my life.. by mid 1970s there were over 800 class 8 auditors, and since the original class 12s there have been 80 so class 12s. you dont see many of the above posting, where are they, they moved on and marty could very well do the same,he has contributed a lot since he decided to speak out from his experiences, he is a smart guy and will do what he needs to do. i must not be reading that much i missed the comments on marty he just mentioned.
    for tony it is a job for him to attack scientology, he feels there are many injustices and he wants to make it known, at some point he will lose interest and someone else will pick up the fight.
    there is a big world out there and lots of interesting things to do

  227. Tony: Great post!!

    I find it harder to grant beingness to those who I know personally or through this board, for example, who are not “conforming” to my mind-set – than to grant beingness to a total stranger who is acting “strange” or aggressively.

    We automatically put things into one of three categories — like, dislike or neutral. Typically we put into the “dislike” category anyone who disagrees with us.

    Your comment gave a great clue as to how to grant beingness in the last sentence.


  228. Roger from Switzerland Thought

    Thanks a lot Christine for your wishes. I’m on my way !

  229. Chris,
    I understand what you said here and can see why you feel this way.
    I think you are a great guy and don’t think you were trying to black PR Marty or anyone else.
    I also agree that Marty is curt with some people and I justify it by the fact that he is under constant attack and maybe that gets him down. I don’t ultimately see any justification for him doing it to someone who has given him support. It makes him seem arrogant.

  230. Margaret, thank you for posting that. It is exactly what I thought happened and exactly why I thought it happened. And it is still a problem today. This is the same process that has confronted holistic practitioners and the alternative healing area, but only those areas that are thought to be a threat to the industries that want to prevent the entry of any who do not agree with them or who have not participated in their “holier than thou” indoctrination.

  231. Truth is Truth, I fully agree with your comments here.

    And just want add some workable data from LRH, (possibly paraphrased) “Below 2.0 on the Tone Scale, the persons data is of discard value only.” from Book, Science of Survival.

    Let’s all communicate freely and freely evaluated the source of the communication. Those who don’t like this should either grow some thicker skin or just shut the F UP or just go away. this form is not for you.

  232. Marty, There is nothing more that you need to say. I can smell the rat as I’ve read a few comments that suggest you’re doing something different. You don’t need me to tell you that you have your individual rights to be, do and have what you want but for what it’s worth I completely support you. That doesn’t mean I am a blind follower either which is not what I believe you EVER wanted. The people who do band wagon jumping are not the people I associate with. I have had my upsets over the years of my imagined betrayals by all of the Int execs who “let cob get away with his perversion of LRH tech.” But I have gotten over it as I feel I have successfully assimilated enough of the climate at Int and the dedications to the overall purpose of the S.O. and Scientology to step back from my own charge and see other viewpoints. I am grateful for what you’ve done since you started this blog. I appreciate and admire you for what you’ve endured since leaving. I completely believe that you have the right to say what you have and are here. For you and the other true independent Scientologists I’ve met I’ve got your back and I am your friend.

  233. Marty,
    I believe it is important to be interested rather than to be interesting. In my view, you are truly interested and I wish you nothing but the best. Continue.

  234. J.B., Then I’ll be sure to Never Quote You. Oh, and “wogs” love LRH quotes!

  235. SKM — there is nothing wrong with LRH quotes. Hell, I used one from FOT after I made that comment. The problem is with people that cannot think for themselves, but must find a quote to tell them what to do about everything.

  236. Litlebruce,
    And don’t forget to keep your eyes wide open. When Marty put out his survey questions I think he really created a situation that required any Scientologist to really look at what was true for themselves about the most sacred of doctrine and whether it was a belief, opinion or fact.

    When stable datums get shaken, confusions will surface and hopefullty blow off. Watch for this in your search. These are very interesting times indeed………

  237. Marty,
    There are only so many ways and variations that you can say “David Miscaviage is a Supressive Person” before it gets old. There are only so many examples you can give before it gets tired. Only so many witnesses you can bring forward before “we’ve heard it all before.”

    People might pause a moment and reflect, you’ve been at this whole thing for Years. YEARS. Plural. Your context has to change to stay fresh as a writer/blogger. Your life has taken a change, big one, moving from the coast to the hill country of Texas. If people can’t adapt, understand that change isn’t necessarily a bad thing, well… Scientology can handle that. 😉

    It’s been about a year or slightly less since I’ve quit coming around this blog so often. I was here multiple times a day. Then daily. I’m lucky to come around once a week now. Nothing against you at all. And my heart is behind you 100% But I have another game called “real life” that I have to play. After acknowleging the Is-ness of where Scientology is today… I can move on.

    Right now, I’m concentrating on work, family, and getting myself in a position to start making progress up the Bridge. I’m hoping to talk to you and Mosey in the next 12-14 months about that. But not right now… and I’ve never lost the failth.

    If others do, then they still have charge on something that needs addressing, whether it’s a rudiment or something more, I’m no auditor… what the hell do I know? But I’m a trained Hubbard Consultant, and I’m willing to bet I could help them if they wanted it. They might START… with a little 2WC! Gee, what a novel idea?

    Let the 3rd parties eat cake. Better yet, tell them to get bent.

    Keep on keeping on… 🙂

  238. I feel some sadness, it’s i’m loosing scientology.It’s a lot of belief, and it’s running away from. I was quite happy to not follow the church and Miscavige, and now, I feel some of my belief dissapearing, i don’t have this urge to go up the bridge while I can still audit and help people going up tone, but it’s a tool of life amongst other tools, nothing exclusive. I’m no longer part of the “choosen people”. Scientologists were the new choosen people, but it didn’t last. That’s the work of Miscavige. Hating this guy is still a good belief.

  239. correction: it’s Elbert Hubbard, not “Albert”

  240. Chris, I am the one that addressed your post, …Tony Ortega has taken over the blog. Then you accused me of OSA because I had the nerve to call you on your ” thought stopping” on the subject of LRH.. Not that I need to tell you, but I am not OSA, I’m not even a Scientologist. So your knee jeck reaction calling me OSA was laughable.

    I have observed this independent movement since the Tom Crusie video. I understand (as much as an outsider can understand) the workings of COS thru books, video, newspapers, radio and of course this blog and others..I guess you can say I’m a lurker…I am going to put my 2 cents in concerning your views.. You, Chris were in a cult ( no news there, huh?) you have been ruled by FEAR for a long time..you lost your friends, your family and your
    wife and home. Now you’re fearing that Marty is taking away the only thing you are left clinging too. LRH…You are still wrapped in your cult think as I read you replies…I understand you are holding unto with a sweaty fist the TECH…I understand that if you think LRH wasn’t the man you need him to be then EVERYTHING that you have gone thru,,all the pain, rejection, guilt, (remember, you pulled this in…not really) but there’s probably that thought there too..was for naught… and that is the biggest fear of all.

    Ex scientologist and independents say that shedding yourself of this cult is like peeling off the layers of a onion..I would ask you, how many layers have you peeled. Please ask yourself..what would happen if I didn’t walk in a Scientologist shoes for one day. meaning..no thinking like a scientologist..could you do it? Maybe this would gauge your depth of your cult thinking. I’m not saying it wrong to be a scientologist but I am saying it’s wrong to put go thru life with blinders on, never looking at both sides and being afraid to do so….

  241. Moonshot, well said. I actually care nothing about DM or his billions. I just have always seen this blog as the most credible bridge which offers the cult followers another reality. It has done that by staying focused on what is wrong with the church. But nothing stays the same. This blog is no exception. The lineup of books comming out should be enough to help the cult followers who are ready to break free.

  242. Well now, that’s perfectly true.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  243. After leaving the church on March 13, 2007 I stopped auditing. I got my real estate license and my mortgage broker license and was about to launch my career. Someone found out I was “out” and asked me to give them a session. They had gotten some horrible auditing at Flag and were very upset. So I gave them a few sessions and they were happy and told a few of their friends. Their friends arrived for a session and then thier friends arrived. And then I was asked if I could deliver the Solo Course. In the two years we operated in Tampa we helped over 40 people get their cases cleaned up, got 13 of them through solo and on to their OT levels, got several through some Academy levels and generally had a fantastically good time helping others. I never did get going on real estate. No time.

    At that time, before Marty started his blog, before Steve created Scn-Cult, before I knew much about anything going on in the independent field, before I knew anythng about miscavige’s vicious nature, I made some decisions about the future. I decided that the future of Scientology, if it was going to have a future, would be one of dedicated tech terminals forming their own groups and sharing technical wins and losses so that all of us could learn from eachother’s mistakes.

    I decided that groups needed to be formed around people who could get results, not around “businessmen” who couldn’t get results.

    I had used four different C/Ss during those first several years. All of them good. None of them had the exact same opinions as to how to program a case for optimum gain. So I decided that I, as the auditor, needed to have KRC for the C/S tech and make my own final decision on programming.

    I decided that “Maintain Friendly Relations with the Environment and the Public” would be my first policy.

    I decided that “Deliver What I Promise” or give the money back, would be my Senior Policy.

    I decided not to op-term with people I considered were “squirreling.”

    I decided to expand my KRC for other practices. I don’t argue against other practices. There is no point except to create a ridge. I decided ridges were counterproductive.

    I decided that ” We of the church believe that all men have inalienable rights to think freely to talk freely to write freely their own opinions and to counter or utter or write upon the opinions of others” means what it says.
    I also decided that communication below 2.0 on the tone scale were seldom anything other than bank and needed a session, not an arguement.

    I would like to see hundreds of groups like ours, like Trey’s, like John Aaron’s, like Ingrid Smith’s, like Pat Krenick’s, like Chris Black’s, Scott Campbell etc. etc. I would love it if we would each recognize that we are ultimately all heading basically in the same direction with our training and our auditing and that we can help eachother.

    I had already helped nearly 20 people get through the DCSI/CCRD line and start on their OT levels after having been screwed up and stopped by miscavige’s out-tech before Marty started this blog.

    The blog has been of immeasurable value to me. Not just because it’s incredibly entertaining, but because it has opened up so many comm lines. It has also helped me run out the 3D engram and given me strength in my own convictions on what I want to do for my future.

    I may very well have quit clearing people and returned to real estate if Marty and Mike had not come to my rescue on a stiuation a few years ago. They asked for nothing in return.

    I treat this blog as if it were Marty’s house and I’ve been invited to a converstaion every day. His tolerance for other viewpoints is a plus point to me. His willingness to help others and his success in doing so is the best indicator of his intentions.

    Thanks for allowing me to express my opinion to so many good people, Marty. I appreciate it.


  244. martyrathbun09

    Les, as I think you know, the feelings and respect are mutual.

  245. Thanks, Sara. Its now on my reading list.

  246. In the last few years I’ve realized that “Organized Religion” of any kind is going by the way side…..It starts out as a labor of love but always turns into something ego driven and a “We’re right…You’re wrong”….The ages are passing and we as spiritual beings will evolve no matter what. Basic goodness cannot be erased no matter what….and to think that any religion holds the only key to ones eternity is bullshit.

  247. Marty, please use the below if you see fit on this thread. I agree wholeheartedly with your recent blog as you have always made perfectly clear your stance on SCN and the Church. To me, you are your own man and a free thinker…the way it should be. I find anyone who is stuck in any mode of thinking to be difficult to deal with, and many have shown themselves on the blog recently. Whether OSA, or literal defenders of KSW 1 only, or just angry people, it really doesn’t matter. Below is how I freed myself from literal minded and ser fac thinking. If it is helpful and appropriate, please enter it as a comment. I would have emailed it to you, but did not have your address.

    I humbly offer this story of how I freed myself from the grips of the Church. This also goes to how I regained the ability to grant beingness. As I have received helpful ideas from this blog, I am hoping others may receive some helpful insights from mine. This is only what happened to me and what worked for me, not in any way an assertion that it is right for you. As we all know, each of us will successfully address a point of charge or mis-identification in a different way…none of us are the same.

    As with most everyone here, upon leaving the Church I read everything I could find to get insights into the truth of what in the world happened or was happening. To say the least, it was an ups and downs adventure…it’s DM, it’s LRH, it’s me, it’s whatever. I kept going earlier and deeper with finally two big questions, which were also the most severe areas of dissonance: 1) Why was it so hard to go free of this mess?, and, 2) How could someone/LRH be so brilliant in codifying so much information, but at the same time take such a wrong turn in declaring himself and the tech “the only answer to mankind”? (This second question is my opinion only)

    I knew that to see the truth, I had to confront everything with respect to LRH himself, which was not easy. As a dear friend said, “we need to confront it and let the cards fall where they may.”
    The dissonance was deafening. What was this mess of a GPM I was sitting in? The answer lay in the reality that somehow I wanted LRH to be right or perfect or without flaws. What was underlying that? The answer hit me like a brick:

    I had willfully gone into treason on the 1D and made LRH source on my dynamics. How could I deny everything he wrote as that would be denying me? Weird and aberrated. I wanted him (the tech) to confront life and tell me what to do. I could not make choices or decide without reference to LRH. This removed responsibility from me to view, understand, and assess truths myself. It was not LRH’s or even DM’s fault. I was total effect of my cause, period. It was my choice to give up responsibility and as a result I got caught up in the SCN GPM of “we are right and you are wrong.” No one was to blame but me.

    Once I spotted my responsibility in the situation I got me back. I could finally comfortably confront LRH and SCN and see the truth (for me.) I was now comfortable to view and make choices from my universe and my dynamics. It became very OK that LRH was flawed. It became very OK to use and enjoy the tech that I found helpful (mostly pre 1965 for me). It became very OK to see the flaws in the tech and to see the GPM that I believe LRH ran on all of us – SCN vs the psychs, SCN versus other religions. Hell, I am flawed, why can’t LRH be flawed. I can talk all about LRH, but that isn’t the point. I am quite thankful that he did what he did, but he surely is not “the” answer. He is “an” answer. Oh yes, and on DM…who cares? He’s nuts.

    Once out of the GPM and once again able to view for myself, I was once again able to grant beingness to others and lose this big chunk of “judgment” and “know best”, something I wanted to get rid of long before Scientology I might add. As we all know, once we separate out from the engram, we can then just “have” it and can just view it with simplicity and truth. No more attacking of defending of any of it. The tech is just that, the tech. It is not a person. Anyone can use it simply by choice. DM has hurt the Church, but the tech will live on as knowledge to be used, or even to be discarded.

    As to the Church…it is dead and meaningless to me. Why have any attention on it at all. They do not do Scientology anyway. If you like the tech, then use it. I find that the basics and most information of the 50’s is fabulous. After that, especially after KSW, I have issues with…some is workable, some not. But again, that is my choice. I should add that I admire Marty and those who have chosen to spread these truths and to help those who are stuck in. His contributions really helped me. I have chosen not to take that route, hoever.

    I feel I can see LRH again. I am very saddened that he got trapped (in my opinion only) in ego and being righty, as seen from KSW on. But, you know, I am very OK with this. I feel no need to justify it or explain it anymore. It just is. And who knows, maybe next week I will find that my assessment was inaccurate and I will change…well, so be it. As for now, it feels very comfortable.

  248. Mike, I’ve seen your quote before. And I know that you didn’t mean the first comment to be interpreted literally.
    BTW the FOT quote you’ve chosen is the real deal. I always loved this concept of having Scientology used that way – but in the last decades it was quite impossible to give to another spiritual assistance whithout being blamed from the church for not having subscribed to “I Help”. You want to be Auditor, subscribe. You want to help, become a Volunteer Minister and report your “stats” every thurthday 2°°pm. You want to help with Study Tech… Management Tools… whrrr…..
    You need “a license to help”. How stupid is that.

    It’s no wonder some confusion shows up now, as the monopoly is broken and we need to get used to the concept you quoted again.

    We’re now independent from the organization (RCS).
    We’re free to help again.

    “The problem is with people that cannot think for themselves, but must find a quote to tell them what to do about everything.”
    Agree. But even worse are these poore devils who need to see an event to know what the next action is they’re supposed to do. Waiting for the “elected one” to tell them what to do, to interpret LRH for them, to come with “new” (better) data from LRH, explain the world to them.

    If someone needs a LRH quote to back him up, maybe he has a mis-concept. Or maybe he has no self-confidence in his viewpoint and the quote validates him in some way. Or he wants to protect LRH.
    Many Scientologists never had the opportunity to question LRH. It was verboten in the Church and many still think LRH was allways perfect in everything he said (even if he himself said otherwise).
    Some other think if you don’t agree with LRH 100% you’re a kind of Squirrel or counter-intention or something.
    They don’t grasp reality and can’t distinguish LRHs wisdom and LRHs errors he did while coping with the organizational structure in the past.
    There is timeless wisdom and a functioning tech in LRHs works. And there are time-bound (dependent) organizational concepts he developed which failed in practice.
    He knew it.

    Anyone needs something to believe in. A concept, a group, a teacher.
    What if you lose it all at once and have no one to go to? Only a blog? And on this blog your “believe” is further questioned and your stable data are shaken?

    Hell yes. That’s a progress in the process of moving on up.
    People look for protection in things they believe in.

  249. Thanks, Margaret. Facinating. By coincidence I am currently reading a contemporary book by a double Masters, PHD scientist, palentologist and geologist, The Voices of the Rocks. I am reading is because he goes into great detail about a large portion of the science community and its politics and why they ignore evidence and facts that don’t support accepted current theoy. He dated some key carvings in Egypt and found they were built 7000 years before previously believed and the science community would not accept his bona fide findings because they didn’t fit their model of how man evolved. In other words, man was not sufficiently advanced “at that time” to have had that capability. In other words, there is a tendency to ignore and fight things that “don’t fit”. And the depth of that denial is nothing compared to the photographs that are coming back from the exploration of Mars showing the outlines of acient structures not dissimilar to those at Giza and other locations on Earth.

  250. I think that it’s very important to maintain an open mind and an open heart.

  251. Hi Marty,

    I have always admired your willingness to explore new ideas and if you have changed your opinions as a result of your open exploratioin – then kudos to you! If you cannot change, you cannot grow and you will never “move up”.

    There has been a great of trolling, chattering and outright troublemaking on a number of sites over the last few weeks. After the Debbie Cook incident and on the heels of TomKat divorce, the PIs and The Master there are at least 3 book releases and 3 Oscar nominations (more publicity) this month that are not looking good for Co$ or COB. Stirring up trouble with “the enemies” by causing infighting and pitting against one another seems to be the order of the day. Honest, real, people are having their buttons pushed by trolls and troublemakers. Marty is an easy, identifiable & public target to go after. After all, he can speak with authority about the inner workings of Co$ and that scares the hell out of the Demented Midget.

    One observation – it seems that the Co$ has demanded strict adherence to the doctrine as it suits DM. Any variance from that, even in thinking and certainly in action, brought very undesirable consequences. “Group think” keeps everyone in line. It is hard to break that mindset when it has been drilled into you over many years, perhaps your entire life. DM & his operatives cannot fathom any other way of operating – the Indies must all think alike and “we must exploit any slight disagreements”.

    Also, Co$ has always needed an enemy (FBI, IRS, etc). Anonymous is a moving target – who are they? take out one and another takes his/her place – that enemy is a theater mask. Tony Ortega is a journalist – they go after him, but not too hard or the rest of the media may respond. So, “Bitter Defrocked Apostate” Marty is the enemy aided by /HIS/ “Posse of Lunatics”

    It’s not unintentional that Marty is setup as the dictatorial leader of the opposition. What else does DM know? He’s dictator of the Co$ therefore Marty is his counterpart amoung the enemy. “All Indies must think alike, Marty tells the Indies what to think & do….”

    Stay strong and truly independent. You are your own man, and people should never expect you to be everything they want you to be.


  252. I’m no longer part of the “choosen people”. Scientologists were the new choosen people, but it didn’t last.

    It’s funny you say that, as I was thinking the same thing yesterday.
    We had a mission to perform. Exactly. But it’s not over now.
    Maybe this is exactly the only way the mission can be performed.
    After all what we have is the tech and the wisdom we gain from moving up the bridge.
    We don’t need to subscribe to a group or look for acknowledgement from some sort of “elite thinkers”.
    The mission to help free people is much older than Scientology.
    Indeed, LRH speaks about the whole concept in the “Phoenix” Lectures and “Creation of Human Ability”. It’s a long tradition.
    Therefore keep the faith. You have better tools and skills you had 2.000 years before (I’ll bet).
    You just can take the torch of wisdom and forward it.
    That’s the real mission.
    Look around you – so many people just don’t know anything about their spirituality, their inner self – nothing.
    You can be the change.

    It’s my strong believe that the wisdom of Scientology couldn’t ever be spread into the world from the Church of Scientology. Since the Scriptures and Wisdom where monopolized by RTC, there was little hope to spread the word.
    But it changed with the understanding that they only tried to stop us. Stop guys like you who wanted to be one of the “chosen ones” to help bring wisdom and enlightement to the world.

    Don’t get duped by them.
    Monopoly of Wisdom is just smoke and mirrors.

  253. If you wanted me to get pissed off, you succeeded.

    Teenagers say – whatever, WITH an eye roll.

    I gave you more credit.

  254. Hey Les:
    Your “Set a Good Example” and granting of beingness has touched a lot more people than you know. It has had a tremendous positive influence on a lot of things and situations in the field, in my opinion. I have drawn a lot of inspiration and calm from it, and I haven’t even been to your center – only observed its products and friends who have found refuge there.

    Just knowing that it’s possible to deliver the tech in a sane way outside the cult, is itself a tremendous encouragement to others. This is how it should be. When stable terminals like you and Marty take a sufficient level of responsibility to suppress major confusions – and even straighten them out – we all win.

    So Les, Anita, Marty and Mike and the many supporters who have contributed to all this, THANK YOU!!!

    -Scott Gordon – Class 0

  255. Many of the comments and observations made here are so interesting to me, this being one of them

    Many years ago, before I’d ever heard of Scientology, I attended a lecture by Eric Hoffer. I’d already read “The True Believer” and wanted to hear and see this great writer in person.

    When, shortly thereafter, I discovered Scientology, I saw it as a philosophy combined with a set of tools for achieving an ability I believed to be sorely lacking in just about everyone in the society – including myself: the ability to really and truly observe for myself, to think for myself, to draw my own conclusions about life and the universe, to achieve higher states of awareness.

    Achieving those abilities requires that one break out of the patterns of thinking that Hoffer was talking about. When I found Scientology, I found the tools that enabled me to do just that.

    The tools of Scientology work when properly applied. That is all there is to it. One should grant beingness to different viewpoints of course, but anyone who says otherwise simply does not know whereof they speak, regardless of how many Ph.D’s or Pulitzer Prizes they may have on their walls.

    Now I read on the blog of someone discovering Hoffer 50 years later and seeing his work as a tool for breaking out of the rigidity and inhibited thinking he or she encountered within the Church of Scientology.

    All I can think is, what a tragedy. That LRH’s great body of work has been so misused, so perverted in application, essentially turned into a set of tools to control others and inhibit freedom of observation and thought, the exact opposite of what he intended.

    Such is the legacy of David Miscavige.

    But there are many still alive who studied the work as LRH intended, applied it as intended, won from it as intended, who will, one way or the other, make sure it survives intact and continues to be used as intended – to help improve the lives of others.

  256. Chris: Here’s a little known book that you might find of some interest — “The Four Agreements”

    One of the agreements is to not take anything personally. Whether a compliment or a rude attack or someone ignoring you — don’t take it personally.

    Easier said than done. Tony dePhillips can almost always get under my skin:)

    In any case, you said that lately the blog had gotten enturbulated.

    Well — taking things personally I would say that about a year ago things got VERY enturbulated FOR ME.

    Mike Rinder (who I love dearly) asked George White and I to stop talking buddhism. I felt hurt, embarrassed etc.

    My point is — the blog might be enturbulating to you BECAUSE it is hitting up against your own “sacred cows” —

    And actually it is sacred cows and how they affect us that can ultimately help growth.

    Before you say — “whatever” to me —

    I’ll say it myself

    Whatever 🙂

  257. Woody Sampson

    This tremendous lie still continues to extract and spend countless sums from unwitting individuals. Marty and Mike, you must have the the piece of the case that can lock up yourselves together with DM. Even for a few months. The house of cards would collapse. Turn state witness and get out of it to leave COB in his cesspool of bullS*&^^. The movement of Scios is only young and to loose it would be such a shame. If we were all willing to sacrifice our lives for Billions of years why not sacrifice a few NOW and go to jail with the head of the org board. Who is going to keep it going? WDC? Send Tom in there to talk to her. Shelly? I don’t think so! We could all pick up where we left off and convert all the good intentions and assets into positive productive activity. It is to important to just throw blame around. There is nothing even close to what we need as a populace happening. The internet is great now but in a few years it will become just as censored as the rest of Media. Laws are being past and have already been in the last few months. Or in years to come our children will reflect, it must of been great when you could talk about religion and freedom, personal belongings and positions, family and friends. This network of hundreds of thousands could be realigned in a short time back to the purpose we all want. Boys you were there and you know the lot of it. Write the case against yourselves with Davie along side like he was. Or get back in front of the FH,CB,Couchman etc. with boards and mega phones. IG RTC, CO OSA, the responsibility is thick with these acronyms back atop your names. Keep it thick and sticky. Lest we forget.

  258. To LDW : thumb up ! There it is. You said it all.

  259. martyrathbun09

    The first of the Four Agreements is not to ‘spread black magic’ which can be roughly translated into ‘issue entheta (communication apt to enturbulate another).’

    Now, Chris, step back for a moment and try to look at this exchange objectively, and answer this question for me (realizing the published moderation policy here is summed up as ‘keep your communication civil and respectful, I use the same standard as I do with conversation in my living room’:

    What is a more offensive statement?:

    a) It feels as if your blog was ‘taken over by Tony Ortega’; or

    b) The assertion that my blog has been ‘taken over by Tony Ortega’ is ‘absurd’ and ‘chicken littleion.’

  260. Following this, blog it seems to me that Marty has left Independant Scientology and beome a independant thinker i.e. there were/are things in Scientology that he still values AND he is open to things outside Scientology that he also values.Independance is not about Hubbard having complete truth while invalidating everything outside that box. The value of being outside the box is that one is free to explore everything and reach personal conclusions, including the conclusion that ends with a question mark.

  261. Whatever. No rolling of the eye. I don’t care if you give me credit or not.

  262. Wayne Borean aka The Mad Hatter

    I think it’s amusing.

    As an outsider looking in, I’ve been convinced that the COS has infiltrators in the Independent movement.

    Yes, some of the “Independents” are fakes. It would be consistent for the COS to run infiltrators. Heck, they hired a guy to pretend to be Paulette Cooper’s boyfriend.

    It takes an amazing amount of paranoia to hire someone to pretend to be a writer’s boyfriend. That sort of paranoia doesn’t get better, it gets worse.

    But it is easy to handle. Don’t get excited, just point out politely to people when they are acting like idiots, and oo in a humorous way. Every movement that is dealing with an entrenched bureaucracy has this problem. Google on the Guardian reporting of Police infiltrators into the Environmental movement in England. One cop was undercover for ten years. The same happens on this side of the pond.


  263. Chris

    Thank you for your communication of your viewpoint.

    As you are no doubt well aware, more communication, rather than less, is the route to resolving communication issues.

    I remember something Ron said that may be of some solace here. It goes something like this…

    Any argument you have ever been in is because you (and the other person presumably) feel that you have not been acknowledged, (this includes feeling you have been invalidated, or feeling you have been evaluated for).
    In a social context, to fully resolve these issues, (arc breaks) both parties need to be able to move from the viewpoint of a “PC” to the viewpoint of an “auditor”, and back and forth, until both feel adequately acknowledged.

    Hoping this is of some help.

    Eric S

  264. Roger from Switzerland Thought

    When I read all comments here I have the impression of a (r)evolution going on.
    The best comments ever written !
    I’ve much more hope now than I had some days ago. :).

  265. Tony DePhillips

    It’s just a knack I have. Of course my model session is poor….. :+)

  266. 24h. Take a deep breath, flush your mind and take a new look. Love it!


  267. Offensive is a subjective term. I may not have a full understanding of your reason for being offended by the comparison. I’ve only read Tony Ortega’s stuff very sparingly. I check his blog now and then to see if there’s any news I’m missing on stuff (updates on Ken Dandar for example). I was not aware the Tony Ortega comparison had been on church “Anti-Marty” sites. I also had not been exposed to it on any other lines so I guess it was just an unfortunate coincidence.

    I don’t care about “b”. I would even agree with it. I would apologize and clarify or retract my statement.

    I got a little freaked out because you immediately used my statement as the basis for a new blog that I thought was heavy-handed and addressed atleast partly to me. I think you can be very abrupt and heavy-handed if someone disagrees with you (I‘m thinking of Jim Logan and some other people you have run out of here), but people forgive it because they want to flow you power because they think you are wearing a hat that is important.

    From my viewpoint it seemed like your post was labeling some unidentified group of people as the enemy and using that to defend against some disagreement you have had lately from a few people. There was some grumblings going on here and I maybe the “rumor mill” you were talking about caused some of it, I don’t know. I hadn’t heard any of this off the blog, but I wouldn’t doubt there is some of that out there. I’ve corrected and defended you a few times when I thought it was necessary, one example being Tory Christman. I don’t hate Tory, but I read some shit she wrote about you on another site and then she seemed two-faced posting here so I brought it up (and I wasn’t popular for it). I also think the ratings thing was causing a lot of what you blame the rumor-mill for. People would post different viewpoints and all of a sudden both sides would have 50 thumbs down. Something was going on. I think I’m very good at spotting little things like that that are messing up the works.

    It seems like you are wearing your RTC IG beingness sometimes and getting out the shotgun when it’s not needed, especially on you allies for some reason. Maybe I don’t get it and it’s not that serious. I actually like mixing it up and having friends who will get pissed off and/or say what’s on their mind as long as I know it’s not solid and I can return the flow and later on we grab a beer or something, know what I mean?

    I initially probably should have just clarified my statement and left it at that.
    Theres a lot of new people on the blog and a lot of the people I had interest in hearing are gone, doing other things and I feel like a grumpy old man or something. I guess I should be doing something else.
    I don’t really know why I post here anymore. I felt like I was contributing and learning in the beginning, but now I feel more like I need more action and less words. I don’t know what the blog is. I guess I should just read it as your personal thoughts. I thought it was more of a group thing. A “meeting place” for Independent Scientologists.

  268. This has turned into a wonderful thread, very very thetaful and enlightening.
    A thought came to me and it may be quite irrelevant – but OSA is
    very good at “divide and conquer”. (they may have had nothing do
    with this thread coming up – I don’t know.) But if they did they failed dismally.

  269. Ok Windhorse. Your writings allude to some qualities that I admire and strive for in myself.

  270. Oh shit Tony. You’re in trouble now. You’ll have to go live with Jim Logan in some weird part of Canada Americans dont know or care about.

  271. This has turned into an amazing wonderful thetaful thread. It just occured to me that OSA is very good at “dvide & conquer”. (I don’t know if they had anything to do with how this thread came to be originally).
    But if they did, they failed miserably.

  272. Regular Dog formerly Underdog

    I see dozens of new names on this blog continually, and the things they say indicate they are seasoned Scientologists. That’s marvelous. Miscavige has people walking away from him at all levels all the time. He’s already taken himself down–shot his feet full of foot bullets. He’s done. There is always a physical universe communication lag so I expect to hear the thud of Miscavige hitting the ground any time now.

  273. Sorry didn’t mean to post it twice.

  274. Alex castillo

    Ahh Mike, you remind me of our old days at Flag, when I could not carry out any kind of interview or conversation without having to back up my comm without precise references to a PL or HCOB or FO. And if I remember well, using your own words was verbotten. It was “verbal tech”.Talk about not being able to express yourself in your own words, no matter how clearly you understood those PLs, HCObs or FOs. Weird eh? I got out of that pattern as as soon as left, but obviously there are a few who can’t do that

  275. Alex castillo

    PS: Should read: ….without having to back up my comm with precise references….

  276. I’ve always had a problem with sweaty fists. I tried antiperspirant but that just makes your hands sticky. I mean, whats worse, sticky or sweaty? Which do you prefer personally?

  277. This ^^^^ !! Let these words above not be wasted! They are worth taking to heart and keeping for many years. Those capable of free thought recognize, understand, and master a discipline. Scientology is the most challenging one to come along, ever.


  278. Well Yes Tony. “Even” Scientologists who are good auditors are still allowed to have opinions!

  279. Publius – (I copied your post.) One of the great challenges of Scn is to learn and develop this quality often referred to as “love”. Your words reflect that high ground, which includes understanding. – Carcha.

  280. Great find Margaret! I hope you post a site soon with all your research and let me know when you do!

  281. Thank you, Les, for not going into real estate.

    Two weeks ago I was with a dear friend of mine who had just completed an OT level at Flag. She was in tears. A heart-rending and deep-felt sadness had come over her. What on earth was wrong? How did it come to this?

    I had been reading up on what has happened to my religion. I was pretty well informed although not for that long. She had uninspected concerns and was wrestling with thoughts unfamiliar to her.

    She has dedicated 20 years to helping others with knowledge and skill she had gained from LRH. She supervised, she audited, she consulted, she gave talks, she listened, counselled, encouraged and helped and helped and helped.

    She felt many were part of her extended family of like-minded people. She felt part of a group.

    And then she spoke at length to me about her concerns. I showed her short extracts from Marty’s first book, Amy Scobee’s, Marc Headley’s, Jefferson Hawkin’s first book, Nancy Many’s, Marty’s blog, Steve’s sites, Dan Koon’s, Jim Logan’s and Lana’s comments and articles, I told her about Grasshopper and the Fagens, OT Buddhists, trolls and Impartial English dolls, LDW, Possible Helpful Advice and invasive testing surveillance with Mike Rinder’s insightful tolerance as a cap to it all; I told her about Ortega and Sweeney and Wright and wrong. This was an extensive chat.

    Her image of LRH, her respect and her love for the technology, her deep understanding of organizational principles seated in the factors, her high concept of ethics and her ever-present desire to assist others to do well, to get along, to care, all of this came crashing down around her.
    She saw the church for what it has become. She saw how the structure and policy and systems and covenants of ‘her’ group had been soiled and damaged and veritably trashed in some cases. Her beliefs were undermined. Was it all a scam? Who are these people in my group? Do I even have a real group? What of clearing? What about the planet at large? O-M-G!!

    To see all of this, to KNOW now that she can see this clearly, is not at all an easy thing. This is putting it mildly.

    Her entire drive and purpose and immense contributions up to that exact point were stopped and paused and it was so, so sad.

    She has since come to grips with this new reality.

    Marty: Your blog was a place to go to look and see and realign and re-evaluate and understand. It was a place to, heaven forbid, question even the role of LRH in all of this. Her friend and mentor, in fact.

    I see your current article and some of those leading up to it with all concomitant comments.

    I say it matters not. Ortega and you do not occupy the same universe.
    I say that if someone wants to quote the old man ad infinitum, I will read those quotes or not. If Jim says it is so and you say go, or something in return, or Steve says what is deeply felt by him and you take umbrage or not, it does not matter.

    The bigger impact and channel we have been able to share right here is a life-line for some and of a value with no monetary significance.

    The potpourri of varied purposes of commenters, the kaleidoscope of viewpoints, the clashing importances, the Bridge-no-more or the Bridge- we-will comments are all part of this fascinating tapestry. The thou-should-not-quote and the thou-don’t-quote-enough dichotomies are all still within the blog and not lines of dissent outside and destructive of the blog. Some have views after blogging for a very long time. Some of us are still in awe.

    There can be no fission because it is all part of the session. This is therapeutic.

    You help those in Italy, in Russia, in France (Frog and friends), in Taiwan and Australia, in South Africa, Mexico, Israel, and Canada, and of course in the US of A, to mention just some.

    My dear friend and I have a new sense of a group embodied in this blog. It is a promise of things getting better in the future. It gives hope. It gives help. It is contributed to by others with their activities and sites and insights.

    It has become more than a blog Marty. Some may say it is your blog so you can say what you like. True. But still, it is more than that. It has grown and extended and is seen by way more than who comment.

    I see in your writings you that honor this diversity (you opened this post or article with this very subject, and that says it all). I see that you respect my right to say what I have, and for this and this space, you have our respect and thanks.

  282. True in 1971, and true today. One of their finest compositions:

    Talking of the end, talking of the end
    Let me hear you say it will not be
    Talking of the end, talking of the end
    Let me hear you say you disagree

    This is no time for easy riding
    This is no time to cry
    Better start to play your part
    Start to live before you start to die

    Dream the world all alive
    Busily conspiring humming like a hive
    Dream the world all alive
    I dream it as me

    Rise as fair and tender leaves
    Brightening in countless eyes
    And the sweet song of whales
    Beneath the sea

    If I could sing only one song I’d sing of you
    If I could sing only one song I’d sing of you
    If I could sing only one song
    If I could sing only one song I’d sing of you

  283. Thanks for your comment and observation, Publius, much appreciated.

    Yes, the irony almost rusts, I got into Scientology for the very same reasons. and was also so excited by the materials, which I found to be without equal anywhere else. I got in in 1990, so my time in the Church was very short, because the insanity prevailed, the abuses were obvious, and extended out even to the far corners here in remote South Africa. I left in 1994, and was duly Declared for objecting publically to the abuses, among other things.

    (I have the privilege of having received my very own Goldenrod). 🙂

    I have spoken at length to, and am friends with, many of the original old timers, and I have the highest respect for many of them.

    I do not agree that Miscavige is the sole perpetrator of the abuses – the evidence points to many of them originating with Hubbard himself, but Miscavige sure perfected the art and culture of abuse – a cult of ego for the “celebrities” and public, and a cult of abuse for the staff.

    Many of the old timers share your distress at the overlaying of abuse on top of what was of worth in the materials. I found some of the principles of Scientology to be really great, but not others. I am more than willing to “grant beingess” to those who find the materials to be of value, and use them, and defend their right to do so, so long as they do not harm others. Hard core critics disagree with me strongly on this point, but I stand firmly for freedom of belief, so long as it does not result in harm to others.

    It is a reality, though, that until the abuse in the official corporation comes to an end, many will be put off being able to objectively look at the subject. Too many people have been hurt, and badly. There are many other subjects that are considered non-mainstream and “off the wall” to general society that are tolerated, and do not draw the level of animosity that Scientology does, and this is solely due to the viciousness of the corporation, which any decent person would object to.

    I have no doubt that the subject itself will be preserved for posterity and study, though. So much is already documented, including the different versions of the Tech, so I would not worry about that. That horse has already bolted, thanks to the many brave souls who worked, often at great personal cost to themselves, over the years to get the materials out into the public domain.


  284. Li'll bit of stuff

    Tony, Chris, I echo your thoughts exactly, and feel for Chris,
    Steve Hall, and many others, who no longer post here.
    It is completely understandable.. People of goodwill
    who come here hoping to find the original ARC, and high
    tone level that used to exist in LRH’s earlier Orgs & missions,
    (including myself) are now finding something else!

    That something is hard NOT to notice….since it seems to
    have dissipated almost completely from this blog.

    “ARC” begins with the letter “A” – Affinity.

    So then, Marty, just where is the LOVE???

  285. morelivesthanacat

    Roger said, “Sometimes I don’t agree with Marty. So what ! Sometimes I express it, sometimes not.”

    Right on and it seems to me that’s the way most of the readers/contributors to the blog look at it.

    M”ovin’ on”, or “gettin the show on the road”, or whatever you want to call it, is more important than the petty upsets about who is influencing what, who donated how many hundreds of hours doing good works on a Scn site that also sells Tshirts, who’s important, who’s in charge, etc. The latter worries are about organization, influence, control and, inevitably money–the very things that predictably got the RSC in trouble in the first place.

    You don’t hear those worries from Marty, or the individuals and groups who are just getting the show on the road or movin on up.

  286. Refraised: Where are we now.

  287. Marty, not having any “back channels” I am, as usual, oblivious and clueless to these goings-on, so I am going back to re-read those threads.

    However, I have been reading your blog almost daily for at least 2-3 years now, and it has done me a world of good! It has increased my clarity and understanding ten-fold, of what happened, and it has validated my own understanding and expanded it besides.

    Theta rules, here, and it is due as much to the commenters as to your own posts, which are very good.

    So I can’t say enough good about your creation and maintenance of this blog. For me,it has been a genuine life-line towards MOUALH.

    Those who bring their personal conflicts to it, can go suck eggs as far as I’m concerned.

    As for people who post for awhile and then perhaps move on, or don’t post for awhile, or who then post infrequently, well that seems natural to me. I don’t doubt most of them got a lot from being here and they also contributed valuable comments when they were here. For me, this quote from St. Luke which incidentally LRH liked well enough to include in Creation of Human Ability, pretty much says it all:

    10:3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.

    10:4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.

    10:5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.

    10:6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.

    10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy
    of his hire. Go not from house to house.

    10:8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:

    10:9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

    I trust they are now out there holding up and improving their corner of the universe, busy living life and contributing towards the overall goal we share, which is the facilitation of Optimum Survival of all dynamics.

    And in my view,you have done an awful lot to make this possible by maintaining this safe space here. I’m sure it has been no easy task, but you have done it, and so I say Thank You Marty.

  288. Yes.
    See how lovingly and fairly you responded. 😆 😆 😆 😆
    Does your lovingness and fairness have a right to challenge my free speech and my own sincere opinion ?
    I recognize your style and wording (it’ s called a “digital fingerprint”) TruthisTruth and you are NOT as anonymous as you think…..:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
    Now go have a loving and day of fairness, will ya ?

  289. martyrathbun09

    Allies and enemies are words I try not to classify people with. To do so suggests some sort of warlike condition. I did not run the fellow away – he left of his own accord.

  290. Marty,

    You pitched a big tentand invited any and all to partake in truth and free thinking. The majority of us are thankful for the candel of light you have provided on the road to truth and understanding. You have given us all a vehicle to “fill in the blanks” in our individual experiences, resulting in a helping hand to “Moving Up a Little Higher”. AND we get the benifit of learning from all those that contribute through the comments.

    I don’t agree with all of your posts and views – and I don’t think you would want that – but there is no question in my mind that you speak to the truth from your viewpoint and have the balls to lay it all out on the line.

    Thank you brother.


  291. martyrathbun09

    Thanks. Not only did he include it, he acknowledged it as one of his sources for Scientology.

  292. Why don’t we all settle this like gentleman – Irish style ?

    We can have a massive sprawling brawl with a couple of EMT’s standing by and when we’ve all worked up a sweat and a collection of bruises, we can all shake hands and go make some pub owner rich ? 😀

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  293. I think your greatest achievement Marty is that more people
    are practicing SCN without regard to the corporation. Most who post here and I’m sure most that lurk here have not been active
    before your arrival. And I’ve been monitoring such things for 12 years.

    LDW said:-
    ” I decided that ” We of the church believe that all men have inalienable rights to think freely to talk freely to write freely their own opinions and to counter or utter or write upon the opinions of others” means what it says.”
    From the Creed, defined as fundamental belief.
    The quote is from: 520303 HCL 1 – Scientology – Milestone One. You also can
    find it in New R&D-Volume 9, p. 456
    > > “If you will just stay with me on this line, up to the first
    > milestone in Scientology, and bring yourself up to a high level of ability and apply yourself to that, you will be free – free from me and from scientology too.”
    Milestone 1 – LRH

    LRH said many conflicting things, but IMO the liberating ideas were predominant.

    Not sure if you wish to post the rest of my 2 cents. Not sure what the backchannel stuff is about, but some may be about OT 3 story. I also have said I thought it metaphor. On at least two anon interviews. But that dosn’t satisfy me completely. Then I was referred to PAB 12. Those who have done OT 3 will probably see
    the connection with OT 3, and PAB 12 was,back when it was written, stated to be the most powerful process. Its not confidential and is in all old and new red vols. For me this answers questions about this level.

  294. martyrathbun09

    Unlikely, since in a thread with over 300 well reasoned communications to date, yours is the first one clearly well below 2.0. Best wishes to you and the klatch.

  295. I must say i have not read all three hundred and six comments here on Marty’s blog, but I absolutely love Tony Ortega’s writing and blogsmanship ! No I am sure Tony has so MUCH more and better things to do than sabotage
    Marty’s blog….and BTW why would he ? Marty is one of the best “insiders” that Tony has access to, why would he blow that ? stupid gosip is stupid gosip !!

  296. Well, it sure looks like a Black PR Campaign and in handling such one never forwards the enemy line; thus one should keep exposing the crimes of the attacker/criminal and focus on flourishing and prospering that should include the standard delivery of Scientolgy as per LRH.

  297. Tom Gallagher

    Beautifully stated.

  298. Well, yes – but… still it’s still MARTY’s BLOG! And a massively successful one at that. Look at the stats: 2012, 3,636,456 total visits 9,950 per day average. That’s a whole lot of lively discourse going on! And perhaps more importantly, a whole lot of folk who have unchained themselves from the shackles of Scn Inc. There’s plenty other blogs out there with entirely different moderation criteria, or no moderation at all, which would drool for such stats.

    Look, I’ve been on the receiving end of Marty’s acid tongue a few times. Usually because I haven’t adhered to my own Father’s advice “never to engage the tongue till the brain is in gear” and I’ve been able to look afresh at what I said and learn something. I’m sure – I hope anyway – that Marty would sit down with me for a beer – he has an open invitation to my home any time. And Steve and Jim are both big enough to be able to handle themselves. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see the three of them together on a fishing trip any time soon. But if not – equally fine.

    I just looked back at the Judgement thread of Dec 27th – 736 comments and still counting! Communication is still taking place! Maybe some of us – myself included – just need to toughen up a bit. I had an OSA agent – not an imaginary one, a real one – trying for a long time, quite cleverly and subtley trying to discredit what Marty was saying and doing. My response was, and will continue to be – as long as he’s anything over 50% right I’ll back him to the end, come what may. Just sayin’

  299. Case in point. You’re cutting me dead now too! :-O 😉
    Plus doing an “attack don’t defend.”

    Except I was not attacking you.

    Besides, this is not about me or you. It’s about the ideas being discussed.

  300. SKM. Thank you for stating the truth and putting it in good context. It aligns with what Marty mentioned on what he thought he was doing when he signed a billion year sea org contract. Its the action of a bodhisattva. A being who keeps at it until all are released from their prisons. No one needs to feel sad or at a loss. Scientology was and is just the most recent vehicle used by many such persons. It a familar gathering of beings whose purposes align. That was very much a part of the dynamic we all shared. And it was powerful. It still is. And all should take heart, as no one is really going anywhere. We come back. Again, and again, and again.

  301. Marty wrote: “That I am not a robotic, lock-step follower of Scientology has been made clear …”

    That is absolutely true. And that is frankly the only reason I visit and comment. This is the only way that what is useful in Scientology will survive with credibility. To follow the CoS, Inc. line is to alter-is and not-is so many fundamentals.

    To get to the truth, one must confront. The way out is the way through. As Marty has also pointed out, if you tell the truth, it becomes part of your past, but if you lie, it becomes part of your future.

    CoS, Inc. will be locked into lies, alter-is, and not-is as long as it refuses to see that LRH had some real flaws along with his good, that he had some things wrong as well as many things right, that LRH fibbed about or embellished certain things of his own past, that it is unethical to let one third dynamic group dominate individuals and all other dynamics, that it is wrong and criminal to use church funds for private inurement, that false imprisonment in an RPF is a crime, that striking others with no justification like self-defense is a crime of assault, that alter-ising stats and production is wrong, that it is horrendously wrong to use SP declares how they have been used — same with disconnection, that it is unconscionable to threaten to use confessional material to control or intimidate people, and on and on — this paragraph could go on for pages.

    As long as people are not free to talk, discuss, analyze, think critically, decide, and get to the heart of things, Scientology will be a cult. Once people can do those things, Scientology could be a profoundly effective applied spiritual philosophy, validated by solid research and more and more broadly accepted and used. My two cents.

    Marty has shown tremendous courage and leadership. So thank you Marty. Hold firm, as I know you will.

  302. Theo Sismanides

    Haydn, it’s great to be able to look around for ourselves and look and look and look. LRH did have that option and he was constantly looking for things, ideas, data etc. collecting it all, thinking or not with it. This “don’t fit” situation is something we have to deal with as Indies. I am pretty sure after some years Scientology Inc. maybe under Miscavige or some other similar “great” leader will abolish or confuse the very essence of a Thetan. Because this is what “doesn’t fit” really in this society. This society is way behind because of their denial of the existence of a thetan.

  303. Honestly you two – get a room!

  304. How about going from food (for thought) to poop (for life)?

  305. Where? Gilman Hot Springs and a round of celebrity golf?

  306. Lol. That’s the spirit!!

  307. This was supposed to be under Windhorses comment above.

  308. Well said Tony. So true.

  309. Common sense man. Practically an endangered species. Thanks Tony.

  310. ATTACK ?
    Come on, of COURSE we are healthily debating issues.
    It’s just when someone with a *brand new* USER ID comes out
    ANONYMOUSLY at me ~~ I like to *PLAY* 😆 😆 😆
    Want to join me in that same Starbucks ? 😀
    We can go down memory lane……
    I loved the old hippie slogan of the 60s:::
    Make love, not war !!!!

  311. Thank you Les. You are a real asset to mankind and your friends and clients.

  312. Spot on Steve. I would add only a small modification.
    “Don’t explain and stop whining!”

  313. I like it.

  314. An excellent statement. And yes, Marty, you have our respect and thanks.

  315. This is a fascinating thread.
    I see that there are several factions that come here to Marty’s blog to “feed”.
    1. The true blue supporters of LRH and Scientology.
    2. People that like Scientology and are open to related subjects. Such as the Freezone, etc. or other things they see as workable tech.
    3. Other religious types such as Buddhists, Christians, and new age religious followers.
    4. Non Scientology types who are intersted in the discussions.
    5. People who want to be entertained.

    The idea that Marty can keep everyone happy is unreal. So I guess if he just says what he likes there will be an ebb and flow of people as some will like some of what he says some of the time, etc.

    I think when a certain group hears something that is out reality to them they get upset. As an example Marty, when you corrected my comment above asking where in all of your writings did you ever say you wanted to take down dm? That was kind of shocking to me.. I would wager to say that quite a number of people here would think that that is a goal of yours. If it isn’t then why do you post about dm and criticize him? Isn’t the logical conclusion from your activities that you are working to bring him down? I think that is a good thing. Maybe you don’t like the semantics of it…I don’t know, it just seems odd that you would say that.

    I don’t think you are trying to run a session here, but it reminds me of some LRH where when the process stops working or the pc is out of comm then you have to put the ruds in. This seems like the ruds session. I do admire you for the 3-d session that you are running. It does take a lot of free theta to do what you do. In a session, I don’t care if the auditor makes some mistakes as long they correct them and I am VGI’s at the end.

    You said above that you didn’t blow certain people off , that they did it themselves. I do think if you make it unsafe to originate people will drop out of comm. All this is just suggestions and comments. I am going to clear my plate while it is on topic.

    I also think that there is some confusion about what is the purpose of your blog. I think you will say , you have written tomes on the subject and maybe you have. But after you said that getting rid of dm isn’t what you are doing, I kind of feel like ;what are you doing?? If this is all just entertainment then ok, cool. I looked at what got me into Scientology in the first place and it was that it looked like it could put some order into an insane world. Then the world of Scientology became insane. Then I found your blog and the rest of the people who had a similar experience and it’s like WTF do we do now?? Some say “fuck it” some want to reestablish the church, some want this and that. It’s like a confusion with not much order being put into it. I think some people wanted you to be the guy to put order back in and are now realizing that’s not happening. It’s layers man, layers…
    I like being able to communicate here. Scientology was a big part of my life for over 30 years. Now, it’s over. It’s hard to reconcile all that in a couple of years. People have different solutions too:
    1. Forget about Scientology all together.
    2. Hate Scientology
    3. Meditate
    4. Read and just get over it.
    5. Some apply Scientology the way they see fit.
    It’s kind of crazy. I still like the analogy of an atomic bomb going off. Here the people of Scientology had this little world and all the rules and now KABOOOOM, it’s all vaporized and they are walking around like zombies wondering where their families are….Where to eat, where to sleep.

    I guess this is the end of my rant. This was cathartic for me, sorry if it seems over indulgent and disjointed.

  316. Second this.

  317. I for one know, that I am doing it for a very long time now.
    When I found Scientology my `faith` was rekindled. Miscavige can’t take it away from me. He can play Monopoly with his remaining crowd, but he can’t stop Truth and Wisdom, the inner core of Scientology.
    I found in Scientology the extension of earlier attempts and practices exactly as Hubbard promised.
    He is enough of a Hero for me for what he has done.
    That his initial organisation was taken over by the “forces of evil” is no surprise for me and I don’t think it would be for him.

  318. Margaret,
    Awesome data, never seen that.

  319. Margaret, facts like these are invaluable. You are TRULY dedicated to KNOWING. Standing ovation!

  320. While all this is all good and all. No one here has any ethics protection unless they are using their skills to better themselves and others. If you are an auditor, then audit people. I hope this blog doesn’t ever turn into an elitist club that forgets where we came from and where we are heading as a group. At the end of the day, the week, the year, it’s how many people did you help? Everything else is just water down stream. Thank you Marty for being here.

  321. Marty you are here and you communicate!!!! you have always been here for us and we say thank you!!!

  322. Wow, Natalie! Agree. Am personally enjoyng not being in a cult anymore.. We all owe Marty for stepping forward as he has and paving the way.

  323. Boy, you don’t know much about good leaders. Good leaders lead by their actions. They lead by example. They don’t lead by proclaiming to the masses, “Hey, I’m the leader.” If you want a leader like that, then David Miscavaige is your man.

    And as far as whether or not Marty coined the term “Independent Scientologist”, who gives a shit?

  324. I’ll quote your question, and I’m not any longer a Scientologist of official or freezone or independent, but I’ll quote you, then give my views.

    “The thrust of the backchannels chatter is “Maybe the guy who coined (or as freezoners assert, re-coined) the term Independent Scientologist doesn’t qualify for membership.”

    “Your views?”

    My views are, that this seems shortsighted, and insufficiently open-minded of whoever’s criticising either and any of what I consider the splinter camps of official Scientology.

    If people use some of LRH’s ideas and his spiritual enlightenment auditing and even the Ron’s Org people doing what they consider as “tech” which Bill Robertson channeled from LRH for their upper upper OT levels, to me, and I think to outsiders who have to give opinions about what is Scientology, I’d call it all Scientology.

    The old 1950s “Aberee” magazine, is to me, a good comparison to ALL later splinter Scientologists.

    Good on everyone, on all ex official Scientologists, for whatever they say.

    I’m all for Grade 0 end phenomenon, Flow 3, with everyone being free to speak their opinions about everything, within reason.

    Anyways, for sure, Marty, you’ve helped a lot of people loosen up mentally, and the battling for position in the splinter Scientology community, even when it’s so obviously a tactic, or even if it’s just accidental, of OSA trolls, so what?

    To someone versed in Scientology, everyone talking and doing bits of Scentology, who feel the worth of those bits, are factually for those tiny sub moments somewhat in concert with Scientology.

    I guess to me, atheist ex Scientologist, bottom line is we are talking thinking human beings, and this is your blog, and as former big cheeze, your thoughts are very good to have in the public domain!!

    Thanks for continuing to be so public with your thoughts, and I’m happy as an ex member who very much likes and respects all who comment here, I very much appreciate being able to find here the ongoing opinions and thoughts of a large cast of the former official Scientologists.

    Thanks very much for doing whatever the hell you want!

    Chuck Beatty
    ex Sea Org, 1975-2003

  325. Something like *this*:

  326. Karen, I love reading your debates on issues. Your word if FINAL with me. 🙂 And that is the truth! My point? The “Church of Scientology” {for lack of a better expletive} is sooooooo…. “professional” at pointing out to to others what’s wrong with others that “they themselves the church of course agree with”. But the obvious is, WHY hasn’t this church of authorities on the mind, and drug addiction and all of Tom Cruise’s cliches *ever done anything results oriented about it*? That would be a real debate! 🙂

  327. Thank you for this, Jonsty. I find your comment enlightening, especially the part about how you had gone into treason on the 1st dynamic by making Hubbard the source for your dynamics. I have a feeling you are not the only one who has done that.

  328. And these days, “holistic” and “alternative medicine” are actually considered pretty mainstream and popular.

    Back then, to not tow the party line could easily bankrupt you, or even land you in jail if you weren’t careful. (The former certainly happend to the early dianeticists, and the J. Edgar FBI was doing its best to do the latter to LRH.)

    It’s funny that some critics like to claim “1950 was the perfect time to release dianetics to a post-war world!” What a joke! Could you imagine a more rabid decade in recent times in which to release something like dianetics?

  329. In other words, there is a tendency to ignore and fight things that “don’t fit”.

    So true. And the favorite justification by many scientists in response is: “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”. The problem? It’s not true! Extraordinary claims with sound evidence, require more research — not derision, head-in-the-sand thinking and fear-of-losing-reputation.

    Yet that fearful approach is, sadly, so often how much of science works these days — especially when faced with sound evidence that “doesn’t fit”.

  330. Thanks George. You’ll be among the first to know.

  331. wh,
    Interesting that you bring up the time that Mike R asked me to start my
    own blog. Well, I can honestly say that this blog is of great value to
    me. About a year ago, I had some residual anger in regard to
    my days in Scientology and I was simply trying to explain that
    I found something better for myself. Maybe I did get a little extreme
    in my comparisons of buddhism and scientology. However, I feel that
    I am in a much better position now since I feel the authentic bond that
    many blog members have for scientology. In this regard, Marty’s
    blog serves a very valuable purpose. Personally I have been
    uprooting my anger towards scientology and at present I feel that
    the task has been completed and the blog helped.
    George M. White

  332. Could someone please explain what to “grant beingness” means? I think I get it from the context but a translation would be useful so I get it right.

  333. Thank you for your kind comments, Carcha.

    I will say this: to the degree my words reflect that high ground you are talking about, that understanding, it is because I am an auditor with hundreds of hours under my belt.

    I think it is Grasshopper who keeps talking about how different things would have been, and be, if Scientology had been staffed with a lot more trained auditors. I maybe misquoting you on that, Grasshopper – but here are words straight from you that say it better than I could, (and let me add, truer words were never spoken):

    “ARC is what should be the hallmark of a Scientologist. Granting of beingness. Helping people. Caring. My ideal Scientologists have always been auditors, not SO members or staff members or reges, or PCs, or IAS members, or WISE members. Because auditors – the good ones – just naturally grant beingness and spread love. You can feel it. You know it. I never met a good auditor I didn’t like. You can’t audit and be a jerk. Not for long, anyway. So this is my reality about it.”

    And to Carcha, I would say, that is precisely what LRH wanted from a Scientologist. Regardless of his faults, I will always KNOW that he was the best friend mankind has ever had. Because I received and practiced Scientology the way he wanted it done, to the best of my ability. My life, and the lives of others, were changed for the better because of that man.

  334. Correction – in my last paragraph above, I meant to say, “And to Kim, I would say . . . “

  335. Thanks Z. Some of the other letters in the book are pretty cool too. For example, in 1949, Campbell wrote a dozen-page letter to A. E. van Vogt explaining all the details and principles of dianetics. Campbell was apparently deeply involved in the earliest years, and had a very close friendship with Ron — and while they did drift apart in somewhat parallel paths over the years, they also seem to have remained friends.

    In another letter from 1961 to a scientist who was being recognized in the press for his research into “cellular memory”, Campbell had a bit of a holy-cow moment, saying: “But dammit. . . L. Ron Hubbard’s right, b’gad. In his dianetics he claimed he’s found evidence that there was cellular level memory of painful injury!”

    These days, the science of epigenetics provides even more evidence that Ron was onto something in his earliest research.

  336. I am not an Independent Scientologist, I am not a Corporate Scientologist, I am a Jew who tried out Scientology in the 80s and 90s. Marty, I love your blog, keep up the good work 🙂

  337. I wouldn’t hold your breath for that thud, IMHO David “Big Being” Miscavige still has his head in the clouds, held aloft of the vapours from fine Scotch no doubt. It would take something like Tom Cruise publicly decrying him and so far all signs are Tom still worships the ground Miscavige walks on.

  338. Thank you, Oracle. Nothing like some historical context in the morning, eh? 🙂

  339. “Maybe the guy who coined (or as freezoners assert, re-coined) the term Independent Scientologist doesn’t qualify for membership.”

    Surely the very idea of having a membership is group think? If you’re independent aren’t you free to define your own identity?

  340. Thanks Marty. I did not know that, about Luke being a source for LRH. But I can see echoes of some basic concepts there, like Act One: 10:5 “And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.”

  341. Lawrence
    😀 😀 😀

  342. Tony — one of the things I really like about you is your willingness to communicate and express yourself so honestly. I also respect your courage and strength of character to not give a shit about what anyone thinks of you (and that is not intended to imply that anyone thinks ill of you — I ONLY know people who consider you a great friend and opinion leader). You are not always agreeable and you are not always in agreement but you are always honest. And you maintain a sense of humor and don’t just blow off or blow up because there isnt unanimous agreement. Good to have your participation. You make many astute observations, even if I don’t always agree!

  343. What Chuck said! 🙂

  344. I was using the word “Wogs” because LRH and scientologists use it, not because I do. You should re-read the context of it’s usage. There’s nothing wrong with quoting as long as it’s not a substitute for understanding. You should also read Jeff Hawkins article.

  345. Tony B

    Here is my understanding of “granting beingness”.

    Basically “granting beingness” to another takes place to the degree that you are willing for that person to be exactly the way they are, without any feeling on your part that you must change them in some way before they are acceptable to you. You would be acknowledging and honoring their right to their own self-determinism.

    In The Fundamentals of Thought Ron says… “the ability to assume or GRANT (give, allow) beingness is probably the highest of human virtues. It is even more important to be able to permit (allow) other people to have beingness than to be able oneself to assume it.”

    Eric S

  346. Calvin, who said they no longer post here? Did I miss some posts I am not aware of?

  347. Dear Marty,

    I really cannot add to the many brilliant comments said thus far, but I want to voice my support for YOU and YOUR BLOG.

    I am a blog hopper: I tend to frequent a blog or chat site intensely and then disappear. I have been intently focused on this blog for well over 6 months. For me (Ms. ADD, yep, that’s me!) that is a marathon! I love that you have attracted a convergence of die-hard Scientologists, ex-Scientologists, non-Scientologists and even anti-Scientologists who can all come here to learn from each other, interact with each other, and discover that we all share common values, a common humanity. We find that commonality even in the arguments that flare up now and then. We already know that Corporate Scientologists disdain anyone not in their fold. Ex/anti sites tend to group Indies and Corporates together as Kool-Aid drinkers, so any Scns or sympathizers are automatically chastised. So far as I know, your blog is the ONLY venue where all are welcome to interact as long as participants demonstrate tolerance and respect for one another.

    Tony O’s blog is my next favorite – I adore Tony, and I love that he openly respects and defends you and the Indie movement on humanitarian grounds, and still does not apologize for poking fun at Space Opera stories. Such stories are utterly irrelevant to the present-time expression of our basic humanity.

    Of course, many of us know that you and Tony O are the same person existing simultaneously……


    Seriously, I have loved getting to know you through your blog and your books, and I think of you as a friend and kindred soul. I hope very much to meet you and Mosey some day.

    OK, I’ve said what I needed to. Thank you for the opportunity to do so.

    Lotsa love,

  348. Haydn: Do you mean “Thomas More versus Henry VIII” or “Thomas Becket versus Henry II”? There are two superficially similar but rather different situations involved there.

  349. Mike I couldn’t agree more… to this comment and your previous one.

    I am finding it quite surreal on a number of levels. I don’t often have the time to dive into Marty’s posts or many of the comments but on account of suffering from desynchronosis (jet lag) I have found myself wide awake and glued to the screen when i should be asleep. Whilst it’s not really helping my body I have to say I am rather inspired.

    Marty, you asked for our thoughts. My first was that “you can lead a horse to water…”

    Your journey is unique on many fronts. The fact that you have helped so many open their minds from such a dark place without 100 times the “backlash” is profound.

    But there is something else screaming out from this post and many of the comments. Christine touched on it. It is without a doubt the most powerful lesson I have learned. And continue to learn every day.

    Here’s a question that relates to this.

    Have you ever honked at someone who’s cut you off? Or swerved aggressively around a car that’s doing 50 in the middle lane of an empty freeway?

    Ever asked yourself why it bothered you? Or why you cared at all what the other driver was doing? Maybe you felt a sense of duty to teach the driver a lesson so he was safer or more considerate on his next journey. Or maybe something else is going on.

    Whenever I find myself reacting to anything I ask myself this question. Why?

    I don’t always figure it out but one thing always becomes clear and that is this.

    The only person who is making me react this way is…. can you guess?


    It is always me.

    I don’t care how wrong that other guy is. The second I think I am right and someone else is wrong I always end up suffering for it.

    Admittedly I don’t always realize this in the moment but I am getting better at it every time I experience this lesson. And that is the key for me. Treating every experience as a lesson.

    If Marty’s next post stated that I was the most evil asshole that ever existed and that I made Hitler look like a lost puppy in the rain by comparison I would be shocked perhaps and a little surprised but if I then reacted to it… well eventually I would have to ask myself that question. Why?

    Think about it for a sec. If someone says or does something to you that is completely absurd you would simply proceed to clarify the obvious misunderstanding and that would be the end of it. Right? Or perhaps after trying to clarify the misunderstanding you quickly learn that the guy is hell bent on destroying you because he’s nuts? Well then you just remove yourself from the situation and get on with your life. There isn’t much use in getting upset about it.

    Okay, so we’re not Vulcan, humans get emotional and it’s only natural so what’s my point?

    Well… just try it sometime. The next time someone annoys you make a conscious effort to ask yourself; “why am I bothering to be upset about this.”

    Now I freely admit there are sliding scales to all truths. By that I mean if a guy is running around my neighborhood telling all my customers that the bacon I’m selling is from Chernobyl then he will in the short term hurt me and my family on account of less business, less money, lower quality of life, etc. But this is entirely temporary, unless of course i do nothing about it and wallow in my new found misery.

    But what if I ask myself this question and realize that my bacon could be better marketed, or even perhaps that my bacon isn’t quite as good as I thought it was, etc, etc… all sorts of solutions and improvements can come from working on my side of the conflict as opposed to focusing on the guy who’s running around “hurting” me.

    Stupid, sleep deprived examples aside the process of asking myself that question always leads to a positive outcome. The answer is always different. Sometimes they are hard for me to accept and I struggle to figure it out. But I am always, always, always better off for getting to the bottom of it.

    And the best part is that when I do figure it out and then work on my own issue I eventually come to a place that Thich Nhat Hanh so eloquently arrived at.


    And from there it is extraordinary how many solutions and resolutions spring forth.

    I’m not a Budist. I’m not a “____ologist” (of any stripe). I am, for better or worse, a guy who hated not understanding things. It drove me nuts. I’m sure growing up in Scientology played no small part in that issue of mine. But even this hatred of not understanding things has led to me to realize that sometimes you just need to let things be a mystery, that not knowing can be as fulfilling as knowing. Having said that it was this desire to figure out why I was so angry, frustrated, etc, etc at various events in my life that eventually led me to learning my most valuable lesson.

    I’m the only one that can hurt me.

    And I couldn’t figure that one out until I stopped trying to be right. In fact nowadays I love being wrong simply because I know from there I will learn something.

    I hope my desynchronitic verbiage is of some use if you’ve read it all and I’m sorry if it’s a little TL:DR for you guys.

    I’m going try and get some sleep now…

    Night all.

    p.s. not sure about the tea in China though… They make pretty good tea… 😉

  350. “Where there is more Standard Tech, The Field will naturally gravitate toward it.” –Sapere Aude (direct quote used with his permission)

    Go free, get TRUE Scientology Tech applied despite whatever others may think, and become an INDEPENDENT being.

  351. I suggest the following categories, and I fall into all three of them.

    6. People who are/were involved with Scientology (to greater or lesser degrees of involvement/adherence) who are trying to figure out what the hell happened! The iron curtain across communication in the Church creates a mystery — people disappear, are suddenly declared SP, books are canceled, the bridge is changed, policies shift for no apparent reason, inexplicable behavior, policy violations, Church procedures that seem to be incorrect, and so on.

    7. Curious people: People who are curious about what others actually think and have experienced in their journey into, in and out of Scientology.

    8. Truth seekers: people who are trying to sort through the morass of conflicting information about LRH, the tech, the policies, the Church, the history and so on.

    This blog delivers on these things in spades!

    Great big chunks of missing data, false data exposed, people show up who had disappeared, insider information available nowhere else, documents, testimonies, surveys — its a wealth of information that comes from multiple viewpoints. Its done me a world of good!

  352. Yes, and even as late as 1982 (maybe even later) vitamins were the subject of a full-on frontal assault. Suggesting that someone take them could subject you to charges of practicing medicine without a license! But even now, if you aren’t careful in alternative healing areas to specify that you are not diagnosing or careful to specify that you cannot make any claims about curing a malady, you can still find yourself being prosecuted. This is true not only of alternative health practices but alternative spiritual/mental practices even to this day. I am quite sure that this is why so many of these mind/spirit/body organizations and techniques make liberal quotations from religious works and very often characterize themselves as spiritual practices.

    But compared to the 1950s, its downright liberal these days!

  353. Marty you have done great work! I appreciate all you have done. DM is but a pawn in a much larger scheme. If DM is a dot then I suggest we need to connect the dots and see the whole picture. Ron touched on this in RJ 67 and briefly spoke of the cabal who controls this planet. Every day they have been covertly moving forward on their New World Order and Agenda 21. This affects us all everyday from GMO food to our constitutional rights being eradicated to chemtrails in the sky, etc. This covert suppression and oppression affects us all eveyrday and DM is a part of that operation. Jason Beghe’s interview in 2008 woke me up to SCN Inc and I am posting this to wake up any of you that have not connected these dots and focus on a dot DM. and not what really affects us all everyday.bthis is not talked about enough here and that is why

  354. I am posting this here and now to return the favor as a wake up call. This info has to get out and fast. Some credible sources i’ve found are David Icke at davidicke.com and Alex Jones at infowars.com or prisonplanet.com. Awareness peceeds change and to move up higher we need to see who are the deeper soucrces to keeping us down. Also what you focus on expands or where attention flows energy goes and I am influencing focus and attention to go towards higher consciousness and freedom as well. If we focus on a single DOT which is DM and Scn Inc only, then all the other elements will continue to stay off the radar screen. I originally got involved with Scn to get out of the trap, this is an effort to help you to see this game with alot more dots connected.

  355. I think you’re right, Tony. I think many in the “all in” crowd look at Miscavige’s self-coronation as the definitive point things began to go awry in the church, no questions. And to their credit, they’re as hell-bent as the rest to bring a halt to the abuses.

    But the minute there’s any valid critique of Hubbard, or Marty poses a question such as the one a couple of days ago regarding the Lawrence Wright excerpt of the horrific treatment of Travolta’s assistant in the ’70s (pre-COB) and whether the church’s behavior acceptable in any civilized society, well then you get the “someone has hijacked the blog” and “I don’t know who Marty is anymore” types of reactions.

    To those who took offense to the Travolta question, here’s what I’m curious about:
    a) Was your reaction negative because you don’t believe the source (Spanky Taylor) of the story and you don’t believe those conditions existed in the church in the ’70s? OR
    b) Was your reaction negative because the mere extension of that question reflects poorly on Hubbard and is therefore unacceptable for discourse, regardless of any truth in the story?

    I certainly don’t enjoy hearing people I hold in high esteem criticized by others, no one does. And probably most of the people who post here credit Hubbard (to different degrees) with providing tools that have enhanced your lives, so sensitivity to gripes about the guy is only human. There will be disagreements.

    But in my view, whether you see Hubbard as charlatan, messiah, or something in between, this community is civilized and the primary belief which brings us together is that the abuse in the church must cease and those well-meaning souls (most of whom are now distorted versions of their former selves) must be given every opportunity to break free of the psychological & physical prison. You guys are my heroes in that regard for what you’ve accomplished thus far.

  356. Thanks Mike. I like you too!! 🙂

  357. So Li’ll Bit of Stuff does this mean Marty will no longer be the subject of your fawning school girl crush?

  358. Chris from Germany

    Marty is a Kha-Khan! He even has been a Kha-Khan in his old days in the S.O. – despite some overt-acts he´d committed in the time of heaviest suppression. So, as Ron recommends in the Ethics-book, if I received any bad knowledge-report about Marty – for example by a nasty comment – I´d tear it to pieces with a yawn, or – when the KR is not on paper – put it aside, unread. And unimpressed.
    Martys Blog has not only helped me to get out of the church, it helped thousands to escape this SP-line and get the chance to establish a sane life with real Scientology. Could it be true that somebody has forgotten about that fact?
    To be an Independent Scientologist one needs to remain an independent, self-looking spirit, and to be a Scientologist – meaning, somebody who improves conditions. When a so-called Independent S. creates a worsening of conditions, then I wonder, if one can call him a Scientologist at all.
    To be an Independent means more than to leave the church and natter around. What was most amazing to me in Martys book “What is w..”, was that he wrote what he tried to bring about changes in DM. Only when he had tried all he could, he left. Marty showed his responsibility and his love, to even try to save and help his enemy out of his bad condition.
    Where are those Independents who also have that sort of responsibility? Those who natter around now – about Marty – have hardly ever understood what it means to be a Scientologist and what the two triangles in the symbol meant. They still have the chance to look it up and W/C.

  359. Is there a better way than by engaging ourselves in the world about us to offer assistance to those seeking a bit more truth for their lives? Doesn’t each person I help bring me as an individual “up a little higher”? Be alive, inquisitive, observe, and participate…wise words worthy of considerations. Thank you for sharing.

  360. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    “How the subject of Scientology should exist independently needs much further thought and analysis. Though Scientology claimed to be evolutionary and not revolutionary that was never actually the case.”

    Right on we are just at the beginning of it !!!!

  361. ex class v staff member?

    Interesting. Frankly I never believed any of the policy was that great. My stable datums are almost entirely from book 1. Never once have had uncertainties about engrams. I have always figured people were getting big wins from auditing and extrapolating from that the LRH was right about every other subject under the sun, management, nutrition, banking you name it. To me it made no sense.

  362. Thanks for posting this historic comment from the great John W. Campbell. It a really interesting testimony to the validity and effectiveness of the subjects of Dianetics and Scientology as well as their innately religious, meaning spiritual nature, from someone who was there at the beginning and saw the results of their being purely applied. I think it also gives an honest analysis of the world into which these subjects were born.

  363. Exactly. The church ending up as it has was not the desired ending we envisioned, but every end is a new beginning. As the church shrinks, the independents grow. Imagine this being 1950 again, with the technical refinements and bridge already laid out, and tens of thousands of existing practitioners or adherents in one form or another. The ability to move up a little higher certainly exists, for individuals and their groups. A lot of important heavy lifting has already been done.

  364. Marty, you have chosen a path where opposition like this was inevitable. From the beginning of my appearance on this blog, I have said that if you want to prevent a second Church of Scientology with all the bad traits of the first one, you have to question Hubbard and his policies. I am happy to see that you have been doing this. I saw you referencing Jefferson Hawkins’ post about thought stopping and other control mechanisms, and where he lays down that some of these mechanisms are part of the tech that Hubbard developed. I have seen you writing about how certain policies actually are destructive and should not be used.
    These are huge steps in my book, one that many anti-Scientologists do not appreciate sadly, but one that I personally respect you for enormously. And it is a hard step to take for people who were trained for many years to KNOW that Hubbard scripture is the truth, and only the truth.

    What it comes down to is that you are now facing the fire from dogmatists. But always keep in mind: these dogmatists are not free of the cult mindset. That’s why they can be easily manipulated by the Co$, even though, as we all know, the Co$ is violating policy all the time.

  365. Amen to that last paragraph, Mike.

  366. Genius Chris.

  367. Marty, honestly, I do not read your blog often, maybe every week or two, and when I do, there is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much there, I rarely have time to delve thoroughly into the comments. So, forgive me for being ignorant about what you are reporting … and relying on what Mike Rinder said above:

    “mrinder | January 10, 2013 at 1:58 pm | Reply

    This is one of the most cogent observations made on this blog.

    Among many rigid Scientologists, many of who call themselves indies, it seems if a question can’t be answered with a LRH quote then it shouldn’t be asked or if you can’t answer a question with an LRH quote then you don’t have the right answer.”

    All of you ‘smart people’ who think you are smarter than LRH, and could have done a better job of putting together the tech, or the admin policies … good luck to you! Really. No Independent Scientologist, or, for that matter ‘Church’ Scientologist has the slightest right to tell you what to do. You are fully and completely entitled to do whatever you want. It is your life and your future, and you, and only you, bear the sole responsibility for how it turns out. Marty is not your boss. Mike Rinder is not your boss. Certainly that little weasley weenie Miscavige is not your boss. Hell, even LRH is not your boss. You get to do whatever you want, and no one can stop you.

    If you do not like LRH processes, or feel you can/have developed better ones, then, by all means, use them. If you do not like what Marty says, then ignore him. If you feel that David Miscavige is about as life-affirming as a pit of vipers, then act accordingly. If you want someone to tell you what to do so that you can, at least in your own mind, escape immediate responsibility, then, by all means, return to the Church of Scientology and toe the line.

    LRH commanded people’s respect and allegiance, not because of his personal qualities, but because of the success of what he wrote (whether alone, or with the unacknowledged help of others) in handling certain phenomenae that affect, almost universally, all thetans who hang around this space.

    It was to be expected that, at some point, using LRH’s processes, many would be sooooooooooo rehabilitated in their own judgment and abilities, that they would begin to see LRH as the “Source” which he clearly stated that he was, and not as the God-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed as some (many) have come to revere him.

    I, for one, am not at the case level, or training level, where I believe I am capable of evaluating LRH’s processes so as to modify, alter or ignore them. So, I, for one, pretty much follow what LRH indicated. But, that does not mean that I feel like I can mandate that my fellows do the same.

    It’s your life. It’s your future. You are responsible for your successess or your failures. Take that portion of LRH that seems well to you, make agreements with others who have a similar point of view, and get on with it.

    Marty has done everyone an excellent and laudable service by providing us all with a forum for seeing that there are many sane beings who have figured out that David Miscavige is worse than Lucifer, and certainly has not got the slightest positive intention towards Scientology or mankind in general. For THAT service, alone, we should be grateful to Marty. This doesn’t mean he’s God, and it doesn’t mean he gets to tell everyone what to do. All he gets to do, which is what all of us get to do, is to say his peace, give his reasons and see who agrees with him. If you do, great. If you don’t, find your own path, and good luck to you.

    In any event, I thank Marty for preserving an open and transparent forum for the free expression of ideas.

  368. /APPLAUSE

    Natalie, this is the best thing I have ever read on this blog. You are indeed a beautiful person, thank you for sharing this.

  369. Chris, so true. And so worth the sleep it cost you to share it.

  370. Rather than assume this is Chris Mann … I’ve got to ask … is this Chris Mann?

    If so, I’d say you should be sleep deprived more often — JUST KIDDING — but this post is remarkable in it’s clarity as well as kindness.

    Whoever it is — glad to know you 🙂


  371. martyrathbun09

    No, he is an entirely different Chris.

  372. Thank-you Margaret, this is fascinating stuff and quite helpful for me to better understand some of the early days in a clearer context.

  373. LOL! 🙂 Somebody had to say it.

  374. Excellent.
    I’m sure there are more categories too.

  375. Impressive communication.

    I agree with everything you said here for the most part.
    Having been on Solo Nots in the cult, I had to get good at trying not to get upset about things as it could and would end up costing me lots of money. Motivators…why did this or that happen…it can be helpful. On the other hand, if I really had applied this intelligently I would have left that stinking cult long ago. It is a good technique to look at why you do this or that and have some wins. And I do believe it is good for others to do this too. I also think there are two sides to that coin. There is the side of ~what you did and why~ and there is the side of ~ what the other guy did and whether or not it was good for him to do it.
    And if it wasn’t good, should you just introvert on it or do something about it.
    I think you already coverd that point to some degree with your bacon example. 🙂 You might need to take action on the guy slandering you (if your bacon was primo) Or the example of dm. He has contributed to ruining many lives. I think it could be said that the people with ruined lives, allowed it to happen and they can learn a lesson from it. But there is the other side of the coin there too. Did dm have to do the things he did? Why not get him out of there so less people have to learn that lesson?
    Anyways, I loved your comment, it just made me think of how the cult gets people to introvert and see how “they pulled it in” somehow or to have this or that cog on why bad things happen to them. It has value, but it also has value sometimes to find the real cause point of misery and irradicate it.

  376. Your comment makes me think of an example. Let’s say a person had a very loving father and the kid owed everything to his dad in his mind. Then he hears some other kid bad mouthing his dad and he beats the crap out of him. Then he hears it again, and again and again. I can see easily how a person could get into denial about something bad his dad did. He doesn’t want to look. Eventually he finds out his dad did a hit and run and gets thrown into jail. Well, this kid could then say his dad was framed. His dad is SO nice , he would never do anything like that…so on and so on.

    I look at LRH like this. He did a lot of good things and people had some great wins using his tech. This doesn’t mean he was incapable of hurtfull acitons or bad policy.

  377. Hi Karen,
    It looks like they are trying to bait you a bit eh?? Lame cult is lame.

  378. Three years ago, almost to the day, after reading for several months Marty’s still-new and (to me as a long-gone ex-Scientologist) mind-blowing blog, I called him on the phone. I said, “I don’t know you, and you don’t know me. But I want you to know I like very much what you’re doing.”

    We talked at least half an hour. We were both blunt and honest. At some point I asked, “Why are you doing this, burning up so much energy, making yourself such a target?” He told me his primary motivation was to help people who had left the cult and those who were still leaving to find some peace. He said a lot of people were very messed up, and they needed some help, some repair, some healing.

    I don’t think he meant that to be a secret between him and me. In fact, he’s been pretty clear about it here on his blog all this time.

    However, in the last 3 ½ years there’s been a lot of dub-in – here and on other blogs and message boards – in response to the question asked over and over again: “What’s Marty really doing? What’s his real game? What’s his real motivation?”

    We all love heroes. Some people are also hoping to find a strong king or a long-lost daddy. Not me. Personally, I like Marty just fine the way I found him three years ago – a plain-speaking, cigarette-smoking, hard-pacing, beer-drinking, electric-sliding guy who’s trying to find his way through this weird post-cult world we are all peeling our way out of. He’s sometimes tough, gentle, funny, or angry. But he’s always, consistently crazy about the love of his life, Mosey, who is surely the best thing that ever happened to him.

    Marty doesn’t need anybody (least of all me) to defend him. I don’t post here much anymore. But I wanted to say today that it would be a good idea to remember what Marty has actually said, not what any of us may have interpreted or dubbed in about what he has said.

    Marty and Mosey, God speed to you both. Catch the winds that feel right to you and tilt your wings in the direction you want to go. I expect you’ll change your direction every time you get curious to see what’s north, south, east, west, up or down.

    Life changes. People change. So let’s celebrate change. And have a beer and turn the music up and dance if we feel like it. Have a date night. Sleep in. Work hard. Love the one you’re with. Be kind and help each other. Hug your dog.

    Damn, it’s great not being in a cult and not having to struggle to reconcile shit that doesn’t make any sense!

    Just Me

  379. As a non scion please don’t go to war with each other. As free thinking peeps please drop all the vernacular except when necessary. It makes you all sound like the robots I think you are not and makes you seem more like those followers of DM than the individuals that you are…….so please don’t get lost. I am just an explorer and do enjoy reading and at times commenting. Please be free to be you, individual and independent Scientologist not warriors nor clones.

  380. Miss you.

  381. Hi, Hadley. Sure, I’ll clarify what I meant.

    First, Scientology is oriented toward helping a person become more himself or herself. More independent, more willing to observe and decide and act on own determinism. Less at effect of what any other person or group may say or do in an attempt to influence.

    Because the group called “Scientology” was influenced in the direction of making its members “toe the line” and follow the dictates of the group’s “management” (or else!), people still part of that group are, in general, no longer as independent as the original philosophy of Scientology suggests they ought to be, for their own spiritual well-being and for the improvement of conditions across the dynamics.

    We now have a loose group of individuals who have rejected that “management” and its actions and influences, and who are applying, to one extent or another, the original philosophy and the technology which arose from it. This loose group has chosen to call itself “Independent Scientologists.” A good choice, but a bit ironic to be in a position to have to emphasize the “independent” aspect, when that’s what Ron originally had in mind all along.

    It wasn’t actually a very important point – just something that struck me as amusing.

    I hope that clarifies! If not, let me know and I might have another whack at it.

  382. I hear you Publius. I delayed replying because I needed to ponder what you said, and which echoes what many of the Old Timers said. I acknowledge that Scientology is powerful. Others will laugh at me for saying that, but they cannot deny that people who became involved with it came to love it. Others experienced abuses, were hurt, and came to hate it. So it evokes immense love, and immense hatred. Anything that does that is powerful.

    Taking into account your and other peoples’ testimony, some of love, some of hate and pain, I can only reconcile it with an anecdote.

    I while ago I came across an incredibly beautiful and powerful piece of music. I listened to it over and over again, and it inspired me so much. I experienced it as the power of the human spirit to overcome and triumph over darkness. It made me want to do great things, and inspired me to write, paint, go out and change the world for the better. I loved the piece so much I shared it with several friends. The piece is called “Lux Aeterna” (Eternal Light), from the film “Requiem for a dream” which I had not seen. So I simply had this piece of music, without context, and I loved it.

    A friend from the Netherlands then told me that the film was about self-destruction, and that the mass murderer, Anders Brevick, had been obsessed with the piece, playing it over and over, and had it on his iPod when he went on his shooting spree in Norway. This piece of music amplified his acts of insanity, and inspired him to commit mass murder. (Reference here: http://www.nme.com/news/pop-will-eat-itself/58256 )

    I was horrified.

    So, the piece of music which I had encountered without context, and experienced as something so powerful and beautiful, and which for me was a composition of such immense love, had been used and interpreted by another as something to amplify an act of hatred and insanity.

    I think the above analogy may be pertinent to the diversity of our experiences with Scientology. It is how one chooses to see it, interpret it, and use it, and one can have experienced it as something beautiful and liberating, or something that wreaked destruction, pain and death.

    For reference purposes, here is a link to the piece of music I am referring to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl5McGN2L-E

    Thank you for the conversation, I appreciated it very much.


  383. PS – and I realize, that since you do not know me or my background, I should briefly add my experience. In a nutshell, my love of auditing was used as an incentive by OSA to inspire me to commit an act of mass spiritual destruction – in the form of a mass betrayal, in 1995. It was the ultimate degradation of myself, and others. Scientology was also used to destroy Lisa McPherson. So, that is some of the context of its use for dark purposes that perhaps may add to your understanding of other experiences that were not positive. Ultimately, I do not blame Scientology and OSA, I took full responsibility for my own actions, but I hope you can understand why the subject is personally tainted for me.

  384. Just saw this Blog. Since I do not follow many of the sites, this looks like a case of OSA trying to cause trouble covertly. For my book Marty is a voice of reason in a sea of BOTS. Marty’s book is very clear and he practices what he preaches. Nuff said.

  385. Russ, right on!!!!! 🙂

  386. No bait and I’m not an “OSA operative”.

    I posted an observation. I was addressing a classic phenomenon the world has come to recognize as “Scientologists”.

    The replies to my comment just illustrated more of the phenomenon.

    It’s a training that happens when lock-stepping too long within Scientology Inc management (not Scientology) to suspect any disagreement or doubt as hostile or malicious.

  387. Thanks I understand

  388. Yep, you see this phenomenon a lot when families have loved ones on trial. All evidence can pointing in the direction of their beloved son or daughter, yet the parents will resolutely hold to the belief that their child is innocent – I suppose because the truth is simply too painful to come to terms with. The Casey Anthony case comes to mind,

  389. Natalie,what a heartwarming and beautiful post. What a winning attitude. WOW! Thank you for gracing us with your wisdom.

  390. I have a historical val doc for you Margaret. If you want me to send it forward send me an address theoracle@ymail.com

  391. Natalie
    It seems I misplaced my comment to you. You will find it under AnonLover below. Again, thanks.

  392. Dear Karen,
    *brand new* USER ID ………
    I did not notice that. You do not miss much!
    Now, what has happened to “TruthISTruth? It is only fitting that he or she come back and acknowledge you with a “touchee!”
    You are amazing Karen.

  393. Marty, if you were never a high ranking official in the Church (as Pouw told LA Magazine) why do they spend millions to stalk you?

  394. WindWalker.

    I appreciate you taking the time to explain to an interested anon. That is what I thought it meant – a complete acceptance of a person the way they are, the way a true friend would be towards you. A deceptively simple concept and even though I would like to think I do this on a day to day basis with my friends and partner I do have thoughts along the lines of “I wish xx would smoke less or stop smoking”. But I do accept the smoking as I won’t nag anyone to change. I do though have a problem with the the word grant as I think it is not mine to give but theirs to expect – simple respect.

    Thanks again

  395. Marty,
    I have come late to this post as I am still trying to catch up on recent ones.

    In my opinion, you EXEMPLIFY an independent Scientologist and have my deepest respect and gratitude. Many would have long-since thrown in the towel under a fraction of the abuses you have endured on our behalf. With courage, patience, dignity and, dare I say love?, you still soldier on. You still seek to inform, heal, embolden and inspire. Most admirably, you still share your insights, knowingly risking throwing pearls before swine. As the swine wallow, many more are moving on up.

    As for the “sine”, “There is a crack, a crack in everything. That’s how the light gets in.” -Leonard Cohen

    From my prospective, you have chosen to continue the process and are still getting great results.

    Again, thank you, Sir.
    Lee Carmon

  396. Tony B

    Yes, you seem to have the concept pretty good.

    As to your observation, “I do though have a problem with the the word grant as I think it is not mine to give but theirs to expect – simple respect.” I feel it is also relevant. The “granting” part, as I understand it, is something you do to your own considerations regarding the person, rather than something you actually do to them. Obviously, if one does not grant beingness to another (in their own eyes) then their relationship with that person will likely be tainted with the lack thereof, as they will likely take a course of action of trying to change some behavior of the other person.

    And yes…. it really boils down to simple respect, as you say.

    Eric S

  397. Oops-Should be As for “swine”

  398. EO, you mentioned on an earlier blog that one of your comments, replying to a comment of mine, was blocked by moderators.

    I frequently visit Geir Isene’s blog and if you would like to see your reply to me posted, I suggest you try posting it there, addressed to me.


  399. Kim, “my love of auditing was used as an incentive by OSA to inspire me to commit an act of mass spiritual destruction – in the form of a mass betrayal, in 1995……………………………………………………………………….”
    You are not alone, I was similar in 1980 and feel exactly as you. There’s probably many of us around. Love, Dee

  400. Thanks, Publius – you got it right. It is my observation that when staffers are put in an intense staff situation like the SO, they founder without training. They have NO idea what they are giving up their youth and vitality and putting up with all the pain and insanity of staff. Then, they get pissed off, snap, and leave.

    Training saved me when I was on staff. I was a Class IV when I did my stint at Flag. Had I not been, I would have left and would never have come back. I also would have had a far worse experience when I was there.

  401. Marty, I very much appreciate this post. Especially this: “most importantly – remember that no matter what the question, the answer is ‘love.’ ”

    I have not read your books, which is why I never comment about them. It just seems that I am not part of your intended audience. So, it’s not my concern. Thus, I am so glad I got the chance to read this excerpt. The Chocolate Velvet is such a goofy romantic, and the love you and Monique share shines through your words so beautifully.

    You and she are truly blessed, to have that kind of love. It’s rare in this world, and hard to grow. Thanks for this, and the poems, and the philosophical musings. There seems to be a more personal tone in some of your posts, and I enjoy seeing more of Marty, the whole person. After all, the person is the product of the process, you might say. I think the best way to witness for what you believe is to live your life in fullness and express yourself openly so others can see and gauge for themselves. 🙂

  402. Darn it! This should go on a different post! I’ll repost it there. Feel free to dump this one if you like. Sorry. 🙂

  403. I had actually heard that Elbert and LRH were not related, so I looked it up to be sure. Seems there’s truth to both sides – LRH is not a blood relative of Elbert’s strictly speaking. LRH’s father (Henry August Wilson) was an orphan and adopted into the Hubbard family, and his name changed to Harry Ross Hubbard after he was adopted. Therefore Elbert is technically LRH’s uncle, but there is no genetic link shared between the two. This is interesting because I didn’t realize Hubbard’s father was an orphan and his born surname was Wilson. So if one wanted to look into Hubbard’s genetic paternal line, it would be under the name Wilson, not Hubbard. L. Ron Wilson? Hmm….

  404. good point on ‘…please yourself’, makes me think of the Garden Party song by Rick Nelson 🙂

  405. “Extremes are always aberrations to some extent, and sanity is somewhere in the middle – free to move. It could be compared to a meter needle that isn’t pressed to the left pin or the right pin, but floating in the middle.”

    I like this statement. At the moment of realization, truth is clear, like in auditing or finding a correct why, so in this sense it is extreme. However, when it comes to philosophic view of life at large, it is best to be free to move like the floating needle, as you say. Great metaphor.

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