Scientologists at War

A Roast Beef Productions presentation aired on channel 4 in the United Kingdom tonight.  Don’t know how long it will be up on You Tube (courtesy apparently of WWP) so you may want to watch it soon if you are interested.

Scientologists at War


256 responses to “Scientologists at War

  1. If the link does not work or gets blocked on youtube you can watch it at vimeo here

  2. This show’s okay, it at least gives lots of great coverage of Mose, and shows your new place, which I hope you both are enjoying!

  3. Marty – first of all – GOOD JOB!! Your wife is lovely! I am glad you two are together and you take care of each other. Good for you for not letting this cult destroy your marriage and relationship. That is the #1 goal of the cult – shatter the most important dynamic – the family. It leaves one vulnerable and alone, isolated and weak. I am so happy you found each other – warmed the cockles of my soul!
    You both did a great job in the film!! Your story of escaping was quite harrowing! I understand the culture you lived in and what happened to you could have happened to any of us so don’t feel bad about the past – just keep living and loving and learning!
    I totally agree – the Cult’s evil culture is contagious. I noticed my personality was changing – for the worst in Scamonology – and now that I have been out for a while – I am feeling more and more myself. I am kind and compassionate, loving and forgiving! You CAN’T be any of those things in that evil cult!
    Your true nature is blossoming and you have WON THE WAR against Scientology – you are growing to new heights!
    The church of Harrass-ology looks like complete idiots and their “claims” at the end were utterly ridiculous!
    I think you are doing a fantastic job of living life, healing from the past, exposing the truth about the cult and helping to dismantle Miscavige’s regime and the cult’s evil, vindictive game including “fair game”. I love the internet.
    The Church of Sciendollary (Rinder coined the term – I love it) is a laughing stock out here in wog land.

  4. martyrathbun09

    Thanks a lot for your encouraging words. You noted, I am kind and compassionate, loving and forgiving! What a world it would be if we all were a little more of each.

  5. Very awesome 48 min program of Truth revealed. Kudos to those interviewed who are so sincere and telling the real truth of the matter!

  6. Marty, you are one tough hombre. And I’m really glad you have Mosey by your side.

  7. Great show Marty & Mosey.

  8. Though somewhat outdated, this is a pretty objective view of the “Independent Scientology world” a year or so ago.

    Marty and Tony Ortega were both very good. Thoughtful, intelligent and well-informed. Mosey was magnificent — calm, rational and cogent.

    Roast Beef Productions crammed a lot into a little time in a well constructed and edited piece that didnt dip into sensationalism but treated this as a serious issue of religious freedom.

    Of course, the Church of Scientology looked like abject fools and their statements quoted at the end were astonishingly incompetent and utterly disproven by everything that had just been seen.

  9. Pingback: Scientologists At War | Mike Rinder's Blog

  10. Robert Troutman

    That was an excellent documentary. It was good to finally meet Mosey on film. She is a powerhouse! One question for you: The documentary states you reject the label of scientologist. Have you moved from “independent scientologist” to something spiritually more broad?

  11. Love it – Love it – Love it!

    How many escapes, recoveries, co-audits, groups and family reunions were possible because Marty kept on drawing the enemy fire?!?

    The Freezone, Independent Field, and many groups and teams are as fully operational as they want to be.

    No matter where you stand or what you think of Marty’s take on Scientology – never forget that!

  12. I’m glad we got to see this. No new news for most of us but a good summary of what you and Mosey have been thru including the intention of the church to make your lives hell. I like seeing the truth told and the actual activities of the cofs exposed. Loved seeing the two of you with some peace as the ending point. The good guys won that battle.

    I’m sure many others will note: Mosey is a rock star. Her sincerity, integrity, beauty and personal dignity totally translates to the camera. She can be my spokesperson any day.

  13. Great video! Some people have very short term memory. Today we have our own “Independents” that have stepped up to take the Squirrel Busters place. And have pulled the banner of “Independent” right out from under Marty and set it up as an opposing group!

    I implore everyone left here, to remain neutral and to not accept invitations into conflict with your fellow man, in Scientology or out. Let’s begin to set a new example of Scientologist that does not need blood letting to feel whole.

    Cults are not illegal. I wish everyone joy and happiness and adventure who want to live as one.

    Critics are not illegal. I wish them all some self satisfaction for speaking up and standing for something.

    Scientology is not illegal. I wish all that explore it an interesting adventure.

    I wish that all of us do not have to inherit another enemy, but rather make new and valuable friends.

    At least we could aim to arrive at the civility , manners and good will we see manifested in Mosey. Who appears to be, let’s face it, the sanest one among us.

  14. Jean-François Genest

    Thank you for this documentary/video, and for the information provided in it. I gained a broader insight and better perspective on the overall scene. You two are tremendously marvelous beings! Θ

  15. Jean-François Genest

    Information worth disseminating:
    Congratulations to Umberto Chifari from Italy on completing OT 7 Solo New-Era-Dianetics for OT, OUTSIDE THE CHURCH !!!

    → See what you helped cause there Marty & Monique? 🙂
    Love you! ♥ Θ

  16. fascinating to see people

    “run scientology out” as hubbard said.

    Appreciate everything you done, that’s for sure for me.

    I have learned.

  17. Good on you Marty and Mosey for persisting onward and upward through everything Miscavige threw at you. And thank you for your blog and all that you write, it has been a game changer in the overall scheme of things. Your detractors aside, I think you’ve made a significant and valuable contribution to setting things right since you left the church. While watching this is became obvious that leaving was hard on you as it was the rest of us. I think we all need to give each other a break for what has transpired over he years. I think you’ll be known far better for what you did after you left the church than before leaving. Being able to help another being with auditing is perhaps one of the most gratifying feeling there is, and you clearly show joy in what you are able to do for others. Best wishes.

  18. mosey wasn’t in the church.

    way to go mosey

  19. That was a great show!

    Thanks Marty and Mosey for your perseverance and dedication to expose the truth.

    I can totally understand why you would want to change your tactics now Marty.

    I still believe that the cult must be fought. I would say that you two have done a valiant job at doing that. I feel a person can still fight something without resorting to tactics that are ugly and unsavory. What the cult does to “fight” is grotesque. What most people who have left the cult do to fight is what I would call righteous and appropriate.

    May the sweet winds of peace blow upon you both.

  20. I watched the whole thing. I think it was an excellent piece for the general public. It communicated the human nature of this side of the fence and the utter ridiculousness of the cult.
    Well done to everyone involved.


  21. Hapexamendios

    You can use YTD to download videos from Youtube. Works really well on a high speed connection.

  22. Marty – The (really well done) documentary and interviews brought me a whole new view of you and the personal trials and conflicts you have faced in all the good work you have accomplished. No eval, just a more understanding view for me. Your lovely wife Mosey was the most cool and personable, imo. Unruffled. – Carcha.

  23. Good job at shining the light onto the CO$ and, sharing the light that your wife obviously gives to you. I wish you continued restoration and growth into whatever path life leads you towards. Hold tight to your wife and listen to her when she gives advice. Keep looking into the fullness of the many, many spiritual paths the world offers until you find the one that speaks real Truth to your heart and brings you real peace. Although it may not bring you a great income I can see you getting out there and really helping those who could use a man like you either working with adults or teens. Ironically, you would make a fantastic psychologist because you have endured real suffering throughout life and are working to rise above it. Only through past suffering can one truly see the glorious path that leads to understanding, humility, and true love. Peace be with you both.

  24. Bert Schippers

    Marty & Mosey you guys looked great! I’m happy that you’ve got a great new place to live secure from the nutcase harassment by the cult.

  25. Mike made an impeccable summary of everything there is in that video. Thanks to Marty and Mosey for their patience in dealing with all that abberation. Without this blog, some could’t have access to a knowledge that is supposed to be popularized.

  26. Marty, Thanks for standing up to the punkass Darth Midget and his demented minions. No matter what else passes, you showed he can be stood up to.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  27. It is great to see the truth spreading. It seems a snowball is gathering some heft. The tide is turning. All the legal attacks, undecover attacks that Scientology doled out are spring loaded and back firing.

    Karma is a bitch.

    On some level I feel sorry for even Miscavige. An ignorant uneducated immature young man got caught up in saving the world with the “only hope for man”. And his penchant for violent retribution was santified by the father figure he worshiped as the world savior through standard policy and the example of rage.

    I am so glad I blew in the early eighties.

  28. Markthehungarian

    I just watched the documentary and I thought it was insightful and shone the light on how the Church of Scientology seeks to prevent others from practicing their faith outside of the confines of the Church.

    The Squirrelbusters, especially that lunatic woman who was cackling beneath the umbrella, looked even crazier than I remembered them. Their conduct is probably the best commercial for why joining the Church of Scientology is a one-way ticket to madness. And apparently they’re all OTs. Holy cow!

    But what the documentary showed best, and in a delightfully understated British way, was that Marty is a spiritual journey and how his right to practice his religion freely have been, and still are, under attack.

    For those who continue to say that Marty hasn’t done enough to make up for his conduct within it (even though the Church of Scientology at the end says that he never held any position of authority within the CoS – nothing but a ridiculous lie), I think this doc shone a light on the difficult process of decompression after leaving DM’s crazy world.

    People change over time. Some more than others. I’ve read Marty’s blog for 3-4 years now, and it’s clear from the entries that Marty is on a spiritual journey to find the calm he desires. I applaud Marty for wearing his heart on his sleeve in this documentary, and on this blog, regardless of the consequences.

    I was never in the Church of Scientology, but it’s clear that Marty has regrets. Yet what he has done, and what he continues to do here on this site, is the best he can do. And I think no one should expect him to do more.

    Watch the documentary before it gets yanked off Youtube or Vimeo.

  29. Tom Stannard

    JFYI, the documentary was shown on Channel 4 (ITV4 is a different channel)

    Some surfers may be able to access the documentary on their site here.

  30. I enjoyed it Marty. But as per my previous comment I wished they’d asked you why you stayed so long when you knew it was crazy!

  31. ” You noted, ‘I am kind and compassionate, loving and forgiving!’
    What a world it would be if we all were a little more of each.”

    Amen to that, Marty.

    The war is truly over now. Thank you for being who you are.

    And Mosey, thank you for saving Marty’s life. He’s got such a lot of life and so have you. (Sorry for such large a understatement)
    You are a beautiful person and a beautiful woman.

    And Marty, I don’t care if you don’t want to be known as a “Scientologist” anymore. I totally understand your decision. If the COS practiced what you practice, they would be well known and well thought of.

    Also, I’ve been so busy lately I haven’t had time to tell you how much I enjoyed the book that you said not to bother reading. I did anyway. Thanks for filling in so many blanks in the history of the COS. After reading it, I want to acknowledge and commend the sincerity and strength of purpose in all of your actions back then, good and bad. Everybody makes mistakes except for people who don’t try to accomplish anything worthwhile….and that in itself is a mistake. To me, one of the most important things about a person is if they continue seeking to refine and improve what they are doing. Do they evolve rather than devolve.
    So here’s to a continuing evolution for you and Mosey and all of your friends.

  32. Marty,

    I saw the program and I am over 50% of your book. I think the program was well made. It represents you in a very positive light as it should. Mosey just sparkles in it. Her clean space and clean intentions make it very pleasant to watch her. I only wish Co$ would take the time and open themselves to the program. Then we could all see the stupidity, the robotism, and the viciousness. Who knows, maybe they could see it themselves.

    I intend to write a full review once I finish reading the book, but I would like to share my impression so far.

    First, I feel that your writing, which was good to begin with, improved greatly. The book is very interesting, and it clearly communicates what you wish it to. Your experience with the Tech, and being exteriorized stably and with full perception parallels mine. I believe that most people in Scientology today did not have that benefit.

    As for LRH; your books relays data that I suspected from my very first days in Scientology. That is that LRH has made a turn and started developing mind control tools (like lower conditions). I do not agree with your statement that he deserved to die peacefully and not alone. Hubbard betrayed every single friend he had, first of whom was his wife. He betrayed his followers. Thus, it was inevitable that he would die alone.

    There is a Jewish Prayer: I wish that my old age will not shame my young age. I believe that he brought about a cancelation of this wish.

  33. Dear Marty ,Thankyou for practicing what you love ,in helping people im one of those peopl you have help and Thankyou Mosey for helping Marty in a time of need and loving him unconditionally!
    Eric Alexandrou
    Queensland Australia

  34. I thought it was great. Mosey you are awesome.

  35. Very well done for this documentary. It shows the inhumanity of the ‘church’ and the humanity of yourself and your lovely wife.
    I wish you all the best. Time is on your side.

  36. Marty and his wife have been through Hell. They held the fort and pushed back, making all kinds of Freedom possible for the rest of us. In my book, this is the stuff that heros are made of.

    It is people like this, who make the impossible possible, that remind us there is still magic and reward in being human. Mike Rinder was there on the front lines also with others. Their courage and inspiration are the stuff of REAL supernatural. And what Mike and Marty, Mosey and Karen, the others in the Freezone and here, who stood up, kept the porch light on, continued to be friends with your friends and family, continued to help others,have done, has given us our pride back, our freedom back, and reminded of us who and why be choose to be.

    I consider myself very fortunate to be living in this strange and wonderful parallel dimension. Among people with real integrity. Thank you all for being so damned perfect!

  37. Hi, you mentioned that it was aired on ITV4 last night. It actually aired on Channel 4 in the UK. I just wanted to clarify that in case anybody wants to locate it themselves online.

    I watched it last night, jaw dropping stuff! How an organisation like that can operate comfortably in the Western world is truly shocking.

  38. All-in-all, a decent doco. Though they just couldn’t resist playing the Xenu card, which was disappointing, and really had nothing to do with the focus of the program. Journalists need to understand that they will likely lose church member viewers if they go down that path.
    The real story was Marty and Mosey’s plight and how they have assisted in church members removing the shackles. A story that stands on its own and is worth telling, without the need of OTIII.
    I thought you both came across as real, honest, decent people having to endure fanatical persecution by RCS, certainly not as “victims”.
    The church rebuttals speak for themselves and tells you everything you need to know about RCS.
    Well done to both of you.

  39. martyrathbun09

    That really took a book to tell anyway, Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior.

  40. Great documentary. Thank you Marty and Mosey for everything you’ve done.

    I posted the video on the French Independent blog:

  41. Dani Lemberger

    Mosey’s and your courage is well portrayed in this film.
    The insanity of the CoS is exposed.
    The film does not show the volume of work done daily by hundreds of independent Scientologists around the world.
    There lots more work for us ahead. Thanks for all you are doing, Dani

  42. Mosey,

    I think you having seen and your acknowledgement of Marty’s wins when he started to audit again is possibly one of the most important factors in this game of resurgence.

    Thank you!

  43. The statement that SQBs were not sent from the Church is a provable lie. The rest of the usual denials of everything will be seen for what it is by the public.

  44. Oracle,
    Don’t worry. We won’t get sucked into the same idiocy. By the time this shit is finally over, we all are going to be standing empty of delusions, just looking at the truth AS IS, and all the sacred cows will be laying on the ground in broken pieces.

    Scientologists will think twice before running their suppressive mystery sandwich- control operation on ANYBODY.

    And that will be in no small measure because of what you contributed.


  45. What a difference it would have made if Hubbard had been sincere when he said that – about “running out Scientology” – to an audience during the earliest days of Scientology; an audience which likely included many with the memory, still fresh, of the dispute between Hubbard and Don Purcell, and the falling away of Dr. Winter (DMSMH intro) and John Campbell (Astounding mag) over Hubbard’s dictatorial approach.

    Dr. Winter used the term “lip service” to describe the disparity, between the stated and advertised ideals of Dianetics, and the actuality of how Hubbard treated dissenters and innovators.

    Thanks for posting the video, Marty. Good stuff.

  46. Yvonne Schick said: “Mosey is a rock star. Her sincerity, integrity, beauty and personal dignity totally translates to the camera. She can be my spokesperson any day.”

    Oracle said: “At least we could aim to arrive at the civility , manners and good will we see manifested in Mosey. Who appears to be, let’s face it, the sanest one among us.”

    It is my wish that we could each — regardless of gender — manifest within ourselves this extremely necessary aspect of ourselves. The feminine principle, which Mosey so deeply shows.

    I am going to practice having that deep sense of calm that Mosey so clearly demonstrates.

    Fantastic documentary —


  47. I really love this Video.

  48. KARMA:

    Marty mentioned in the documentary, karma. That you reap what you sow.

    And while that is true there is this additional teaching that one of my favorite Tibetan Lama, Tulku Urgyen, (“Repeating the Words of the Buddha” ) teaches:

    Our lives – as they are now – when good, are a result of our past positive actions and the merit that we accumulated in the past. (doesn’t have to be from past lives, can be from positive actions in this life)

    BUT — when our lives go pear-shaped (bad) — (or the CofS starts to stalk you and make your life nearly unbearable) yes — it’s karma …

    BUT they say — be happy — for you are BURNING UP your bad karma and therefore your next life or your future is NOT going to have this yuk stuff as part of it.

    In conclusion —

    What Marty is doing RIGHT NOW – refusing to get into flame wars with those who continue to attack him on his blog or elsewhere … he is NOT creating NEW BAD KARMA …

    He is creating a life with Mosey of being interested in others, helping others and just moving on up. He is creating the life they desire.

    I find myself on a daily basis, thanks to this blog, and those who post here digging deeper into my own practice — Tibetan Buddhism — so that I can become a better more understanding human being.

    Thank you Marty and Mosey and to each of you who post here.

    Even those of post, in my view, outrageous negative statements. (as I can watch my reactions and work accordingly 🙂


  49. I watched the programme “Scientology at War” last night and found it very interesting. The gentleman reporting said that “Marty hated the Church but stilled loved Scientology”, and I believe that is true for many who have been involved with the CofS. I managed to survive in the Church back in the 1960’s just long enough to “go clear” before I was expelled. My whole life had become focused on Scientology so when I was expelled I continued to investigate just why I had been found unacceptable as a Scientologist. I remembered that LRH had said “I developed Scientology because of my love of understanding” and because I also have a “love of understanding” I have made it my purpose to find out why what appears to be a workable technology has caused so much upset.

    My conclusion is that understanding alone is not enough; in fact, understanding without love is exceedingly dangerous. The basic outness in the technology of Scientology is a mis-understanding between theta and a thaten. Our true identity is theta; a thaten is what we become when we locate in space and time. Theta does not incarnate and is analogous with Spirit, hence it is not spirit that transmigrates but souls. Spirit has no mass, souls do, albeit only through postulate.

    The above being so every Scientologist must, by definition, be no higher than in a “Condition of Enemy” since the only way out of Enemy is “to find out who you really are”. I am a ChristianScientologist which is an amalgam of love and understanding. I could only be free of how I had been treated in the CofS when I was able to recognise that I love Scientologists, and that from my view point I had been hurt by them, then I knew I needed to forgive them. This makes sense of why Jesus says “love your enemies, do good to them that persecute you” Matthew 5:44.

  50. I had my inbox opened up and was reading through the recent comments posted on the Letting Go bog when I opened one that seemed to say….”News Bulletin! We interrupt this blog to inform you about….” After that, one comment after another that I opened had something to say about this CH4 doc on Scientology at War. Wow! What timing! Such an apropos event to open up in a blog having to do with letting go.

    I thought the video was wonderful! It made me smile as I was reminded of all the nutty notions I went into agreement with while a being a scientologist and how I have been able to let so many of them go.

    I really like what The Oracle said. I think it bears repeating.

    “I implore everyone left here, to remain neutral and to not accept invitations into conflict with your fellow man, in Scientology or out. Let’s begin to set a new example of Scientologist that does not need blood letting to feel whole.

    “Cults are not illegal. I wish everyone joy and happiness and adventure who want to live as one.

    “Critics are not illegal. I wish them all some self satisfaction for speaking up and standing for something.

    “Scientology is not illegal. I wish all that explore it an interesting adventure.

    “I wish that all of us do not have to inherit another enemy, but rather make new and valuable friends.”

    Whether I agree to fight or to make war or don’t agree to fight or make war (either side of that coin) I am still believing in fighting and war. I am believing in a need. Once I stop believing in the need, I will stop contributing to it. I will have let it go.

    We always have a choice and we always get what we want. Choosing against fighting does as much damage as aligning to it. The obvious is being missed: there is no need…there never really was. We only believed there was.

  51. Wonderful documentary and Mosey is a Star!
    Marty you say you are not a scientologist yet that you audit for a living.
    Do you wish to comment further?

    CO$ lacks all credibility out in the world. Now even for those still in
    they must be wondering. Marty never had a senior position they commented , yet evidence was shown he was the Inspector general, and is all over the net. CO$ says it dosn’t harrass people, yet we see the pantomine villains in blue T-shirts.

    Channel 4 has now made 2 documentaries showing FZ/Independents
    in a good light. Here’s the other one.

  52. +1
    It was a pivotal moment in the doc .

  53. martyrathbun09

    You can read my books if you need clarification. They were written with that purpose in mind.

  54. martyrathbun09

    Rest assured they – individually or collectively – will receive all the coverage that is due the moment they do something newsworthy. As much as Scientologists tend to cherish the notion they are victims, it is all in their captive minds.

  55. Joe Pendleton

    Marty, finished your book about 20 seconds ago. Wow! Brilliant concluding chapter/words and a book I’m sure that everyone who posts here has either read or will be reading soon. I won’t give any of it away to those who have not read it yet, except to say that your continuing journey has involved not only your willingness to risk the disapproval and possible abandonment of your allies, but also no small amount of intellectual honesty and intellectual courage. For an acknowledgement, here I will quote LRH – as was once said on R3R step 8 – “OK, Continue.”

  56. I think Scientologists at War will create a better and truer understanding for the public at large on the difference between the Church of Scientology and Independant Scientology. I think Marty and Mosey are just two amazing beings.
    I noticed at the end of the show disclaimers from the C of S Inc.saying
    among other things something along the lines that Marty never held an
    executive post in Scientology! Do they think that thousands of us that
    were in during the 80’s to the 2000’s erased their memories?

  57. Ive just watched the channel 4 documentary scientologists at war and it made me really angry that a so called religion would do all that to a person! And the squirrel busters, wow they need a good punch in the face lol but I know how Marty feels as I used to be a JW. Hope he is living a peaceful life as everyone deserves freedom of speech and I would support him every step of the way.

  58. Do not know if DM really thinks scientology is “the only hope
    for man”. Look at the way he is destroying the PR, reputation
    and tech of the church.

    Thanks Marty, Mosey, Karen, Hayden and the 2 young ones
    who made this presentation.

  59. Great documentary. Mosey and Marty were amazing.

  60. Marty and Mosey well done to the both of you!! You are both very caring and lovely beings!! love you both!

  61. Marty and Mosey, thank you very much for all your contributions and fights. Marty you are definitely not the person to be imprisoned!!! You are having a big effect on the world Marty.

    “Whatever you did, keep doing it”. Mosey’s words to you. Thanks Mosey! Thanks for keeping Marty next to his dynamics!

    You got attacked big time Marty! And no one of us or very few showed up there. Marty, you are big, rather big. But now that I see the video with the Squirrel Busters I see the attrition effect DM wanted to create on you.

    I now think of one thing. How come we allowed this to happen? We should have been there in hundreds, the Indies.

    Marty, I applaud you but for Christ’s sake Marty. Get some auditing on this 200 days of attrition.

    Who is this woman in the blue raincoat (hood, whatever). I had never seen her. She sounds like a witch. The whole purpose is to have you implanted. Now that I see this again I feel so much rage about DM and his psychiatric methods of handling things.

    DM we are not done, you get a whole people getting together, oh yes, including Marty and Mosey, I am not leaving them behind.

    Love you guys, and thanks so much.

  62. Very Well Done to you Marty! And Mosey Sparkles!

    illegitimi non carborundum


  63. What I like best about this is how peaceful you and Mosey look now as compared to when I saw you last. As one of my final moments with you was when Mosey passed the camera to me as you were being handcuffed and taken away by the Sheriff-and how pissed off I’ve been about it since. However, seeing it in a new unit of time and believing that consequent to that craziness of DM & his Squirrel-busters-you’ve been able to rise above and create a much safer space-and it makes my heart sing! Love to you both, hug one another for me. Midge

  64. martyrathbun09

    Just like a Scientologist, even believing it is a compliment: Get some auditing on this 200 days of attrition.

  65. Oh yes, buddy, oh yes. You have done a lot. Take a break and fill up those theta batteries. You did exhaust them and I hate those who still say
    “Marty Rathbun, niak niak, natter, natter, natter”. Marty Rathbun you are big being, DM wouldn’t have picked you up to be his right hand. But even big being need some auditing… oups, sorry compliments.

    (Any auditor out there please take some note here)

  66. Now, a note to all those here. We cannot not is what we know. I am not playing it the smartes guy and far from it. But I see what I see.

    That little witch in the blue hood was there to Implant.

    I am ashamed that we left those two people get all this harassment without showing up HUNDREDS of US and kick the Squirrel Busters Psychs out of Marty’s face.

    I see this as an incident of heavy implanting and insidious effect. My english is not so good to describe it and my words cannot express my rage right now.

    If Marty is stubborn and proud enough to have kept us all out of this that does not mean that we just stay and stare at things. I have said it many times that the 3rd dynamic is key as well as the 2nd and Mosey proves that. We are Marty’s 3rd dynamic still….

    I repeat some good auditor take note of this and accidentally show up at Marty’s and Mosey’s with an e-meter.

    We are not here to just chit chat especially when we see such things happening.

  67. Awesome video. Very well produced – Sort of in the
    “Middle Way”. It was factual yet exciting.

    Let me get this straight:
    1. Marty Rathbun audits Tom Cruise
    2. Tom Cruise recovers his present life and fortune
    3. Miscavige gets jealous of Marty
    4. Miscavige crushes Marty, demotes and busts him.
    5. Marty recovers
    6. Miscavige is still “swinging” at him.
    7. Based on Karma, Independent scientology should win this war.

    George M. White

  68. CommunicatorIC

    Gawker: I Can’t Stop Watching Scientologists Getting Sprinklers Turned On Them

    Excerpt: “Last night, the U.K.’s Channel 4 aired a special called Scientologists at War, which profiled the Church of Scientology’s former Inspector General of the Religious Technology Center, Marty Rathbun. Once a spiritual mentor to the likes of Tom Cruise, John Travolta, Kirstie Alley, and Greta Van Susteren, Rathbun left the church in 2004 to practice Scientology independently. He runs a blog called Moving On Up a Little Higher, and has been vocal regarding his displeasure over many of the Church’s practices. He says this has resulted in harassment.”

  69. +1 theosismanides. Marty & Mosey deserve suport from all of us.

  70. “That little witch in the blue hood was there to Implant. “
    Theo, I think Joanne could not confront her irresponsibility and went down to glee. Some of those guys in blue skirts knew all the time that Marty is right. (One exception may be J. Allender).

  71. Thanks Heather R for the ack. that’s an issue in itself.

  72. Do nothing. Treat them like they don’t exist. Don’t talk to them, unless they say something pleasant to you. Act like you’re a porn star with nothing to hide, no reputation to lose. It’s all about fear of death, whether of mind, body or spirit. It’s a paradigm war. Gang initiation is about snakes and ladders, with you at the bottom (humiliated and looking like the bad guy) and them at the top, looking like clean living angels. Robert Kennedy said ‘Few men are willing to brave the disapproval of their fellows, the censure of their colleagues, the wrath of society. Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle.’ By the way, all these sites trying to drown you out – who pays for them or can afford to but The Church? Notice how also how you cannot respond to them, unlike your site? (Open and courageous, not bully boy tactics). I was in The Sea Org too, many years ago (Saint Hill): Small fish in a big pond.

  73. Mary Rathernotsay

    You folks come across as good role models- especially Monique.
    I can see that she is going to be a role model for many.
    How does she keep such an even keel?
    It’s something I’d like to learn this lifetime.

  74. SKM, yes, but that person was not just in glee… she would utter stuff in the most malicious way. Kind of a psychological war. I hadn’t seen her before. What’s her last name. She was despicable.

  75. Marty, that you have a Being like Mosey by your side … well … that’s karma too! Obviously there is a great deed in your past, or karma is paying you in advance! Either way, you’re doing good!

  76. Hi Marty,
    I watched the documentary last night on Channel 4. I want to say that you are a very brave man, to have been through what you did and still be fighting to make the truth known. You and Mosey deserve every happiness in the future. Best wishes from the UK.

  77. Phil Bruemmer

    The video was great.
    You were great in it and your wife is absolutely beautiful, inside and out.
    Keep on truckin’

  78. Kudos, Marty and Mosey. What you have done here is so valuable. It is so important that the distinction is clearly drawn between Scientology the subject and its church of the same name. The RCS is not Scientology, any more than, say, Catholicism is the Crusades! Everything that you two have been doing, and now this program, is helping to further the making of this important distinction, so that people can truly “think for themselves”. Thank you so much, both of you. You are heroes to me, truthfully.

  79. I don’t know her. Only from some of the videos Marty posted here or on youtube.

    ” but that person was not just in glee… she would utter stuff in the most malicious way. Kind of a psychological war. “
    Yes, she desperately tried to create an effect on Marty. She was on a “witch hunt” and snapped terminals with something from her own past, I guess.
    Looks pretty poor, huh?

  80. I watched the documentary last night and it prompted me to want to share my thoughts. Partially out of selfish reasons to share my thoughts and partially to show my support, so please bear with me…I am always a bit taken aback when I hear about religious groups who act in such a hateful manner. I am not particularly religious at all but I do have a great respect for those who are…regardless of what group they belong to. However, religion is meant to be inclusive and loving. I do not have much knowledge about scientology, but it has never sat right with me that my impressions of the church are that it is secretive and controlling of its members and to me resembles a cult.
    I have all the respect in the world for you carrying on with your beliefs independently. The fact that the church chooses to target and attack you tells me that they are insecure and afraid. What are they insecure about? Clearly there is something worth hiding. Religion is something that should grown inside the individual with guidance from the church….not by being controlled by the church. In order for this process to take place members must have the freedom to question the religion…not necessarily in a negative manner. But this is necessary for the individual themselves to grow and improve their understanding. Yes, the church is a community, but the community supports the individual and the individual supports the community. This is what creates a healthy environment. if you find yourself in an unhealthy environment then you can only carry on with your beliefs outside the realm of the church. The fact that they feel that they need to victimize you for doing this tells me they are cowards. It is quite frankly pathetic that they worry so much what you have to say.
    I may not be a scientologist but I wish you well and commend you for liberating yourself from what I see as probably quite a manipulative environment.

  81. Still On Your Side

    Marty, I am sorry that you went though that crap. Those creatures truly resemble Harry Potter’s Dementors. Like the dementors, they try to suck all joy, love, happiness, optimism and light from every person they encounter. It seems clear that you and Mosey have not let the demented dementors get you down. And now many millions of people will watch that documentary, and know how much you have been through, and they will be on your side.

  82. Marty and Mosey, excellent program. I always wondered where you two met. Now I know, MATCH.COM! 🙂

  83. If you’re in the UK you can also watch it on YouTube directly from Channel 4:

  84. Mosey, you definitely get the award for keeping things sane. And for having the innate sense to encourage Marty to do what he loved.
    There was once an episode on Northern Exposure where Chris the DJ gets hauled into court on charges of crimes committed in his youth. However, since then he had come to terms with himself and was not the same person he once was, so the charges are dropped due to mistaken identity.
    I was picking up that same sense when Marty mentioned how they were a bunch of kids doing what they did running the church. However, he’d grown up and Miscavige hadn’t.

  85. Tom Gallagher

    Without a doubt George, you’re spot on.

  86. I really loved that show when it was broadcast. Hardeep Singh Kohli is a sharp cat.

    Just to summarise for those that haven’t seen it:

    He wrote to the CoS to ask if he could learn about Scientology. Church refuse, send him a bombastic letter to tell him that a ‘comedian’ is not the right type of person to present a show on LRH and his Tech. He goes to the Freezone. Freezoners come across well, very friendly if a bit kooky. He tries auditing, is impressed by the results, compares it to therapy, end programme.

    I thought it was a horrendous foot-bullet for a Spiritual Organisation. That was 5 years ago, and it seems comparatively tame now…

  87. Tom Gallagher

    Mosey, you’re the best. So are you Marty. Thanks for dealing with all this ‘bull shit’ and coming out the from the dark side. Your story, well, it’s quite inspirational.

    Really it shows that individual efforts and determination, in the face of the evil beast, wins every time on any and every level.

    That’s the story, isn’t it? Sorry to be so rhetorical.

  88. Persistence

    I watched the show and I gained a lot more understanding. Thank you Marty for your courage and for leading the way. I am in awe at how you and Mosey stood up to them and kept your integrity. What complete suppressive whacko’s these people are from the church who did these insane actions against you and Mosey and other Scientologists who have dared disagree and left the church. Thank you for caring and persisting and continuing to communicate.

  89. Tom Gallagher

    + 1

  90. Since 1980 I knew what was reiterated on the channel 4 prog last night may-haps impinged upon the ones whom have legged it big time from the COS me to, but I new in my own being that what they procrastinated to me in London, march 1980 was what I was already doing in the WESTEND of London……LRH was a great examiner of the mest universe……and rightly figured out that like the GREAT tao symbol there is an exact opposite ….ie he said the THETA universe, ( loads of other titles impinge upon this one LOL ) All that was needed was how to get from point A to point B safely and for it to be able to be available to everyone , I aint waiting a Billion years dude!!!!!!!!!LOL for summat that can be achieved in months perhaps a couple of years
    Yes one hell of a boast, but insignificant peeps such as DM need not read on …..All I know is what I know be it good or bad YOU judge …………………..
    LRH got it right ..MAN is basically good and when you commit transgressions against a society you’ve subscribed to you, you pay the price of your misdeeds in equal and opposite to the offence .. justice in my eyes!!!!!

    So carrying that thought to the Nth% The greatest good for the greatest number of Dynamics works for me dude , and always has!!!!!!!!!!!!! even before I was a scientologist

    All my greatest respect to you Marty I did 30 yrs public and you did nearly 30yrs on post phewwwwwww it was good to see H & L in the film last night , much respect for what those guys did for me in there tenure of B’ham org
    Bye for now peace & love dude : )

  91. Tom Gallagher

    Oh I’m getting wordy. I just wanted to say thanks and best wishes to you both!

  92. Tom Gallagher

    Hi Sam! Missed you.

  93. Marty,
    Great video. You and mosey shine in a simple and authentic way. Beautiful and courages, facing all that evil. I cannot and will not forget the inspiration and help flowing from you in so many ways. It all made a BIG difference. Huge… Thank you for not being for sale and for caring. Keep developing, loving and going wherever your heart and being feels is right for you.

  94. A cult classic, pun intended. I thought it was very well done by everyone, great editing, sound journalism, and I bet has a huge impact for quite a while to come. Back in the limelight, you guys were all real, first class!

    It’s uploaded to several sites now, not much chance OSA is going to be successful taking it down at this point. Miscavige is once again in hiding, pretty soon it will be under a rock.

  95. oh yes she does! How pathetic. If that’s called Scientology I am a Martian.

  96. + 1 Great synopsis. 🙂

  97. Watching this video made me realize how much I miss Mosey and I am very happy for both of you!

  98. martyrathbun09

    Feeling is mutual Amy. Let us know when your next major road trip is planned.

  99. martyrathbun09

    Thanks Hemi. You do the same.

  100. My thought on this:

    For those who continue to say that Marty hasn’t done enough to make up for his conduct within it (even though the Church of Scientology at the end says that he never held any position of authority within the CoS – nothing but a ridiculous lie), I think this doc shone a light on the difficult process of decompression after leaving DM’s crazy world.

    Is the hope that “those who continue” to feel that someone – be it Marty, Mike, Sarge, even Ron – “has” to do something might read and gain something from this part of Lao Tzu’s Tao Te Ching (translated by Stephen Mitchell):

    The Master doesn’t try to be powerful;
    thus he is truly powerful.
    The ordinary man keeps reaching for power;
    thus he never has enough.
    The Master does nothing,
    yet he leaves nothing undone.
    The ordinary man is always doing things,
    yet many more are left to be done.
    The kind man does something,
    yet something remains undone.
    The just man does something,
    and leaves many things to be done.
    The moral man does something,
    and when no one responds
    he rolls up his sleeves and uses force.
    When the Tao is lost, there is goodness.
    When goodness is lost, there is morality.
    When morality is lost, there is ritual.
    Ritual is the husk of true faith,
    the beginning of chaos.
    Therefore the Master concerns himself
    with the depths and not the surface,
    with the fruit and not the flower.
    He has no will of his own.
    He dwells in reality,
    and lets all illusions go.

    It is truly my hope that we all can let go of thinking that others should or should not do or be something.

  101. Tom Gallagher

    Just for the hell of it ………

    A trip down memory lane. August 16, 2011.

    A tribute to the fine arts!

  102. The Dwarf is busy saving and protecting his own ecclesiastical keester and whether or not he thinks Scientology is “the only hope for man” is moot, as whatever or whoever gets in his way of safeguarding and maintaining his power and position will be thrown under the bus and that has certainly included standard tech,ethics and admin.

  103. Sprinkler Tech, love it. That harrassing idiot’s hat knocked off – funny! This is indeed a Cult Classic. No wonder the Dwarf denies involvement with the Squirrel Busters. Who would not cringe at the suggestion of a connection to these individuals? Well, that will be the mental link-up now in the UK- Members of the Church of Scientology? Oh, yeah, they’re goons with dark glasses and cameras on their heads. Well done, Dwarf.

  104. George, it is what I call Miscavige’s “Stalin Syndrome”. There is a Russian movie titled in English as “Burnt by the Sun”, a snapshot of the Soviet purges of the 1930s.

    Stalin had a habit of raising people up but then quickly destroying them when they had served his purpose and especially if they had achieved any popularity.

    It’s a good movie and well-worth watching. It is available as a download online

  105. Think of Demon Circuits but on the outside, trying to drive you inwards to conformity, not out of your mind. The woman with glasses is pure Wizard of Oz “I’ll get you Dorothy, if it’s the last thing I do! Ha-ha-ha!” This is gangsterism – pure Boardwalk Empire. In Christianity Independent Scientology would be the equivalent of the Gnostics or The Hippies in society. Turn it into the joke it is and they can’t touch you.

  106. As ChristianScientology says its a war for MEST – people struggling to get what they can out of the physical universe. It’s addiction pure and simple. The illusion is that you can help anybody out of it but yourself. It is about letting go and expanding out of this war for ‘things.’

  107. This is a beautiful video because it shows Marty and Mosey as the sane people that they are, and it gives a pretty good nutshell of what happened. I still find it unbelievable that the church continues to deny and lie even when caught red handed. Marty never and exec? The Squirrel Busters not associated with the church? I should be well acquainted with the church’s tactics, but their blatant lying still never cease to amaze me. Oh, and that woman who sounds like a child bully, I can’t believe she is “up the bridge” : she is simply evil.

  108. Hahaha! Hilarious!!

  109. watched it on ch 4 really interesting , didn’t realize that scientology had a HQ in Britain , was that the british police that were doing the security for it or was it their own security ? Also didn’t know how big an organisation scientology is , scary .

  110. This never fails to get a laugh. What the SQBs did not realize, probably because they never wash their cars themselves, is that when you talk to a person who is washing his car or truck, they often turn to answer you and forget to release their finger from the trigger on the nozzle. Shit–or water–happens, clowns. Gawd this is funny.

  111. Dear Mosey and Marty
    this video is just the last example of your dedication to the Truth being Revealed.
    What you have done in those years is just amazing and incredible and yes but taking the brunt from DM & Co. you made it possible for guys like me to deliver Scientology and bring about a change for a lot of people which I cannot really estimate world wide.
    We know personally, even if we got a small percentage compared to yours, that is very very hard to confront and cope with those attacks, but you and Mosey stood there and you did your part.
    Lots of admiration for what you did!

  112. We would all be safe to be. Trust would be a natural trait. Groups would be a source of healing. Countries would not war. Truth would be the common religion and differences and individuality would be a boon to society not cause for hate.

  113. Thank you Marty and Mosey for everything you’ve done and do (and all you’ve gone through) to make it safe for others to practice Scientology (or not).
    The one thing that always struck me about you both was your ability to allow people to be who they are and the way you always saw the good in people. IMO, that’s the first step to helping another move on up a little higher.
    Myself, my life since meeting y’all has been like going from living in a small pond that had become stagnant to swimming out to an ocean full of life. Yes, sometimes the hugeness daunts me but, I’ve learned so much and I grow and become stronger every day. I couldn’t even fit in that pond any longer. 🙂
    I guess I’m saying, I’ll always be interested in what you have to say because, I know I will learn something. And, thanks for letting me be who I am and know what I know.
    And I hope you don’t ever let the pond fish take your eye off the ocean and the goodness of people.

  114. “Today we have our own ‘Independents’ that have stepped up to take the Squirrel Busters place. And have pulled the banner of ‘Independent’ right out from under Marty and set it up as an opposing group!”

    Oracle, I don’t see how those statements are true.

  115. Happy to have crossed your path. 🙂

  116. Insouciant, I agree with almost all of that. But I definitely know “in” Scientologists who are “kind and compassionate, loving and forgiving,” so it’s not true that “You CAN’T be any of those things in that evil cult!”

    And it wasn’t Mike who coined “Scien-dollar-y”, but a poster on his site.

    On the other hand, your compassionate comments about Marty and Mosey are very true. Thanks.

  117. Great documentary, shows the corruption of the church of scientology and their crazy ways

  118. Dani Lemberger

    And Marty, thanks for keeping Hemi on the back burner for a while until we got our act together. Your persistence kept Hemi knowing hope was on the way and enabled us to do the delivery that Hemi and others are having so much fun with.

  119. Great documentary, shows the corruption of the church of scientology and their crazy ways! Must see!

  120. Dani Lemberger

    Marty is also the guy who matched us up to create such a power team.
    I hear you just made a Solo NOTs Comp. VVVWD!!! This too would not be possible without Marty.
    The spirit of “Independence” is one of friendship, cooperation and support. Wow, the fresh air of freedom, love it!

  121. As I continue to read and progress through the daily lessons in A Course in Miracles I have come to almost take it for granted that whatever lesson I happen to be reading will have a direct connection to something I’m currently experiencing. As I was reading the lesson I’m on today (#170) I instantly thought of this blog post. That noted, I would like to share an excerpt from this lesson:

    “No one attacks without intent to hurt. This can have no exception. When you think that you attack in self-defense, you mean that to be cruel is protection; you are safe because of cruelty. You mean that you believe to hurt another brings you freedom. And you mean that to attack is to exchange the state in which you are for something better, safer, more secure from dangerous invasion and from fear.

    “How thoroughly insane is the idea that to defend from fear is to attack! For here is fear begot and fed with blood, to make it grow and swell and rage. And thus is fear protected, not escaped. Today we learn a lesson which can save you more delay and needless misery than you can possibly imagine. It is this:

    “You make what you defend against, and by your own defense against it is it real and inescapable. Lay down your arms, and only then do you perceive it false.

    “It seems to be the enemy without that you attack. Yet your defense sets up an enemy within; an alien thought at war with you, depriving you of peace, splitting your mind into two camps which seem wholly irreconcilable. For love now has an “enemy,” an opposite; and fear, the alien, now needs your defense against the threat of what you really are.

    “Today we look upon this cruel god dispassionately. And we note that though his lips are smeared with blood, and fire seems to flame from him, he is but made of stone. He can do nothing. We need not defy his power. He has none. And those who see in him their safety have no guardian, no strength to call upon in danger, and no mighty warrior to fight for them.

    “This moment can be terrible. But it can also be the time of your release from abject slavery. You make a choice, standing before this idol, seeing him exactly as he is. Will you restore to love what you have sought to wrest from it and lay before this mindless piece of stone? Or will you make another idol to replace it? For the god of cruelty takes many forms. Another can be found.”

  122. I have a lot of respect for you and mosey. The most Tolerant and resilient couple of people I have ever seen but maybe thats just me. I mean, 5 minutes of them squirrel shaggers on my drive and I would of chinned one of the fuckers. I find it funny how pathetic their attacks are on you. Reminds me of the tactics we wud use in school against someone we didn’t like lol it seems the church of Scientology have the same wrong approach of brainwashing people as Islam do.

  123. I admire your courage in exposing the Church’s despicable practices. Both you and Mosey were sincere in the video – something that cannot be faked. Because of you I have moved up a little higher. All the best to both of you.

  124. martyrathbun09

    Thanks Helena. We’ve moved up higher because of you too.

  125. martyrathbun09

    Laura, thank you for the wonderful advice. You’d be surprised how many ‘friends’ have tried to counsel us otherwise, and then condemned us for trying to see the whole ocean. That is one reason why we consider you as such a special friend.

  126. martyrathbun09

    Claudio and Renata, Thanks for all you do. We are aware of the slings and arrows you’ve withstood and you have our admiration and love for not letting them convert your spirits to hate.

  127. Hi Marty

    I recorded the documentary on Monday so I have now watched it three times (number of times over material and all that!) and there is so much data there it warrants many viewings.

    It mentioned how you had to rebuild your life after leaving the CofS and find a purpose that gave life meaning. I know that feeling so well. To replace the purpose of “to help Ron clear the planet” is not easy to do. I woke up this morning recognising I have a Failed Purpose and wonder just how many others also have. It seems real to me that when we have a failed purpose that was creative it can easily be replaced with a purpose of destruction. I have met people who when they have failed to fix something have ended up taking a hammer to it, in fact I have done it myself.

    The majority of Scientologists are set on a creative purpose, when that goes ‘pear shaped’ it is easy to go on a destructive purpose instead, and that applies both to the CofS and the Independent/Freezone.

    Re-kindling a creative purpose outside of Scientology is no easy task. What would you say is now your raisen de’tre (reason for living).

  128. Hi Monte
    You wrote “ As I continue to read and progress through the daily lessons in A Course in Miracles I have come to almost take it for granted that whatever lesson I happen to be reading will have a direct connection to something I’m currently experiencing”.
    You are the first person I have heard of who has been involved with Scientology and is also a student of ACIM. I came across the Course some 15 years ago and find it perfectly compatible with the tech. of Scientology, just a different nomenclature. How say you!

  129. I enjoyed the absolute sincerity of both you and Mosey. When the entire video is watched any normal person can easily see the insanity of the church members and the church itself. Then compare this to an individual person just wanting to live life and apply what they have found to be true for them. You have held your position in space and the result is a wide variety of people practicing outside of the organized church. Whether all agree, or disagree with you, the fact remains that the end result has been a resurgence of many continuing on the quest for answers. Thank you for what you have done and continue to do.

  130. Gayle Smith aka TroubleShooter

    That film was great. The highlight for me Marty was you and Mosey packing your things in the moving truck and moving. That had to have been huge for you in all ways. The relief of that decision and space I suspect that decision and move caused some tremendous gains for you both. I know it did for me just watching about it happening so many months after the fact. I’m very happy for you and for Mosey. I respect what you’ve done/do and will defend your rights to do it. Mosey, you are wonderful. I wish nothing but good things and conquerable obstacles for you both in your pursuits of happiness.

  131. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    I made my trip to Casablanca 2 years ago, as I knew something gonna change in big ways and my main purpose was to look into your eyes, to see if you’re honest.
    After 5 minutes talking to you my mission was fullfilled and I knew there will be big changes.
    I stayed and got some auditing from you that got me out of 34 year of case spin and since then there is no urgency about my case anymore, I can handle life without thinking about my case or having to go into session.

    This movie is a honest report about you and Mosey and a story about integrity and courage.
    I’m grateful that you exist.
    Time and history will prove that you are right with your visions ! If only enough people could understand what you are talking about, but one day your ideas will penetrate. You’re quite ahead of time !

  132. Well said, Christine.

  133. I want to thank and comment Marty and Mosey, Hadyn and Lucy andMark Shreffler and Steve Hall (the ones on the TV show that aired). I also want to thank Claudio and Renata Lugli for taking on the horrible fair gaming that the church has directed at you just as it did at Marty. And the fact that you have not taken a settlement no matter how much money is waved in your face, this is true integrity. And Marty and you all have withstood slings and arrows and have shed light on the evil so much that you have my undying admiration.

  134. After a bit of an hiatus, I have caught up on the blog, including watching this latest documentary. Content just gets better and better.

    Also, I downloaded your latest work night before last and read it practically straight thru. Such a well-written and helpful book. Keep doin’ whatcher doin’!
    Love, Vic

  135. martyrathbun09

    Thanks brother. Say ‘hey’ to the Mrs.

  136. Will do and please do the same with Mosey. BTW, the camera sure loves her. Later,

  137. Beautifully expressed, christianscientology. You are wise. Thank you for posting.

    Richard Kaminski

  138. Christianscientology, I have been looking at the subject of what you stated here:

    “The basic outness in the technology of Scientology is a mis-understanding between theta and a thetan. Our true identity is theta; a thetan is what we become when we locate in space and time. Theta does not incarnate and is analogous with Spirit, hence it is not spirit that transmigrates but souls. Spirit has no mass, souls do, albeit only through postulate.”

    What you wrote would pretty well align with the following two references.

    From the *Phoenix Lectures* given in 1954: “A thetan is very, very close to being a pure Static. He has practically no wavelength. Actually a thetan is in a very, very small amount of mass.”

    And from *Fundamentals of Thought* published in 1956: “The thetan (spirit) is described in Scientology as having no mass, no wave-length, no energy and no time or location in space EXCEPT [my emphasis] by consideration or postulate.”.

    However, the above two quotes seems to conflict with HCOB 3 Jul 1959 “General Information”, in which LRH gives this definition: “THETAN: The awareness of awareness unit which has all potentialities but no mass, no wavelength and no location.”

    The above definition is also in the Tech Dictionary, but I think the other two, one being a lecture transcript and the other an LRH book, are more reliable as authentically LRH’s words. I’m interested in this subject of theta vs. thetan because I’m currently studying a little on Buddhism. And I take it your interest has to do with a comparison of Scn principles to those of Christianity.

  139. ubervirtual


    Your choice to move to a secluded location has probably done the most damage to Scientology and to the power of DM.

    While you lived where they could surveil you, it created more profile, drama and therefore more intrigue for the church. They milked the PR, albeit bad PR, and DM seemed to gain more power because everyone was talking about him.

    Since you’ve taken a new approach with your writing, his power is fading. We gave him power by making him someone important. DM feeds off the resistance, so when there is none — he becomes irrelevant. This is his greatest fear.

    It feels like you helped achieve critical mass around the Scientology issue and by pulling the focus away from DM….the walls will eventually crumble by themselves because it is only the consciousness of the people around the issue that is holding the facade up.

  140. martyrathbun09

    You are so right about this: it is only the consciousness of the people around the issue that is holding the facade up.

  141. Thank you Marty, for helping me get out of the CoS. You were kind to me when I contacted you. It was a huge contrast to what I had experienced inside.

    Scientology is fantastic and well persevering with, but not inside the CoS – they will destroy you, and almost succeeded with me.

    I like people – that’s why I’m a Scientologist.

    People are basically decent and worth knowing – that’s why I’m an Independent Scientologist.

    It’s great to be out of the cold.

    Richard Kaminski

  142. Not the same Sam. There seem to be two new Sam posters. My photo is on my avitar so there is no confusion.

  143. And I haven’t gone anywhere 😀 I stick around and watch – as you can see haha!

  144. Hi Richard (waves). Got your email. Will send reply once I’ve caught up on some stuff 😉 x

  145. Richard Lloyd-Roberts

    You may never fully know how many people you have helped or impacted. I am one of them. As anyone that has been in the Sea Org and left can attest there is a long decompression and recovery time. Its been a while for me and getting rid of Scientology “think” is harder than many realize. The story gave me a bigger respect for all that you have been through and your strength to carry on. Mosey is your equal and one wonders how many people would have gone through that with you.
    I really duplicate your message of transcend now.

  146. Standing Ovation! I have noticed the people that move up with the tone level going up on this blog are people that really do not have a problem acknowledging others for some RIGHTNESS in their lives. This is a handicap for a lot of people, To just be generous with a kind acknowledgement for another person’s efforts. I think it is obvious that Marty and Mosey deserve some applause for their heroic efforts. Yet, you will find an absence here in names of people who just cannot contribute a “Thank You” for these efforts. A little love spreads a long way. We can argue among ourselves until time is a vague memory, and fail to get another person into a reasoning band. But love can conquer hate in a New York Minute. This guy bought more peace to our nation with a song than any single march in history.

  147. Just consider for one minute, what our current NATIONAL ANTHEM is in the U.S.A.!

    Just consider if this song above, was our NEW NATIONAL ANTHEM!

  148. Marvin Gaye calmed a nation with this song and a higher purpose. He should have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.

  149. Well Bob, If you are into “don’t see” and “I don’t see”. . . . Why not make a list of names you “don’t see” on this blog of people you may know that choose not to acknowledge the heroic work of Marty and Mosey that is clearly illustrated in this documentary?

  150. I implored people to not get sucked into the conflict or contribute to it. I did not suggest that people become oblivious about it. To the extent that we do not add to it or give it life, we need to be aware of it as a purpose that we choose not to feed into.

  151. Tom Gallagher


    You wrote, “DM feeds off the resistance, so when there is none — he becomes irrelevant. This is his greatest fear.”

    I’ll add that’s because he’s a parasitical being (valence). Worse than flees, ticks and ring worms. This being is spiritually akin to Lyme disease.

    Thanks for your comment!

  152. Marty the show was excellent you know I never thought much of those dating sites. Man was I ever misguided you found Mosey what a beautiful Woman inside and out. I am very happy for the both of you especially after seeing the broadcast.

    I posted on the channel’s comment line my thoughts were and are people should be free to practice whatever religion or teachings they desire.

    Hopefully I came across to those both in and out in a good way. Scientologists are not bad people they just need to see that the World is not out to hurt them.

    I hope that you & Mosey now have peace I have been noticing your postings on Eastern teachings. “Lao-Tse” for one. There are very great lessons to be learned from those so far away.

    My Best Wishes

  153. Joe Pendleton

    Very good video. And I think it will stand on youtube as an important resource for people who want to check out how the CoS operates. Among other things, I think any viewer will be able to see the stark contrast between the shrieking insanity of the female “squirrel buster” and the calmness and intelligence of Mosey. I’ll just add that it is clear from just that 30 second or so clip of Marty behind the meter, the quality of his ARC and comm cycle as an auditor (and I know what I’m talking about).

  154. Hey Pip! What say me? I say ditto! I find ACIM to be incredibly compatible with the tech of SC but void of all the ego that came with the SC package. BTW, from one of my friends, who also follows and contributes to Marty’s blog, I have been informed that there is actually a fair number (?) of exscientologists that have taken to exploring the course. So glad to hear from you Pip.

  155. Hello Marildi,
    the theory of static vs. thetan is simply the consideration of a terminal (which has some mass). A “pure” static or a “pure” thetan would of course (theoretically) have no wavelenght, energy, virbration and wouldn’t be located in space and time. This would also be a no-game condition.
    The Factors is a good reference for the game and how it comes that matter energy space and time come about.
    The static is more a potential to create energy than the energy itself – BUT he also has the potential to assume a viewpoint (The static is capable of considerations, postulates and opinions – scn axion 2) and as he goes down to play a game, he can also assume that he has become something he created before.
    The different descriptions in the different religions are a description of what can be experienced and as different people at different times with different consciousness described the phenomena they experienced we have such a quantity of descriptions (and names like soul, spirit, aura et al). The “pure” static can’t be measured as it is not “of this world” (MEST universe). All we can measure is the products (phenomena at different wavelenghts/virbrations) created by the static.

    Don’t forget, it’s all theory and only as valuable as it can be utilized.

  156. martyrathbun09

    Something that is not theory, but instead a compendium of related experiences from religionists, meditators, therapy clients, and even drug experimenters, is Abraham Maslow’s work on ‘peak experiences.’ Recommended to expand imprisoned horizons.

  157. Jean-François Genest

    I don’t agree, because if it was true, many people I know would have self-imploded by now. Instead, their “evil-ness” continues to fourish and prosper.

  158. Hi SKM. I’m curious….other than The Factors as written by LRH, have you ever heard another story that tells how matter, energy, space and time came about? For me, until recently, The Factors was the only story that I recall ever hearing that tells how matter, energy, space and time came about. As long as I had one story that was what I held onto as being the “true” story. Now that I have two stories…well, the “truth” is a different story.

  159. iamvalkov,
    Nice suggestion. I have been watching Red Army battles for weeks on
    end. Stalin seemed to be in some control during WWII at least he
    did not mess with Zhukov. I watched all of the major battles many times
    over and I see the great organization of the Red Army after the initial
    fallback. The Battle for Stalingrad is amazing. I watched Kiev Battle and
    the entire thrust that pushed the Germans back from the line.
    Also watched the Battle of Berlin which was also amazing.
    So did the war mess up Stalin?
    I will download the purges of the 1930’s once I finish with the
    great battles.

  160. Still theory (as long as not experienced by the single individual) but I’ll admit that Maslow was a great thinker and contributor to practical solutions to entrapment.

  161. Thanks, SKM. You make the key point where you say: “The different descriptions in the different religions are a description of what can be experienced and as different people at different times with different consciousness described the phenomena they experienced we have such a quantity of descriptions.”

    What you wrote is what makes even “direct experience” (or, as Marty wrote, “peak experience”) perhaps not reliable as a total answer. I do realize that the Theta-MEST Theory was just that, a theory, but it seems to be a pretty good one in terms of fitting known data, as described by LRH in 8-8008:

    “The original of the Theta-MEST Theory may be found in Science of Survival (1951). After the concept of the true static was reached, problems of processing began to solve much more rapidly. And the main proof of the Theta-MEST Theory is its workability and the fact that it predicted an enormous amount of phenomena which, when looked for, were found to exist and which, when applied, resolved cases rapidly.”

    Marty wrote the following in his review of the book *Buddha’s Brain”: “..Scientology was somewhat vague in differentiating between the Thetan (spirit) and the mind…”

    I think there is truth to that and also to the fact that it wasn’t easy to get the difference between theta and thetan with regard to the concept of static . But unless I’m missing references that would differ from the ones I quoted, I’m happy with the understanding that theoretically, theta is a static, whereas a thetan is not pure static.

  162. Thank you-your alright.

    So is Marvin Gaye.

  163. Marildi, once upon a time I thought if God had a body souls would be the cells of that body.

    I have always had a vivid imagination. 🙂

  164. “Oracle”, so now there is a standard of acknowledgment that a person must meet? What I am into is “true”, and I was challenging your statements, but willing to listen. Some may note that you chose not to answer. (Of course you were under no obligation to do so.)

    I will risk more of the sarcasm and say that I “don’t see” anyone acting like the excreble Squirrel Busters. I don’t recall Marty claiming to have coined the term “Independent Scientologist”. (In fact, the other day he said he’s not a Scientologist, though what he meant is subject to interpretation.) So exactly how was that hijacked?

  165. I think there is no reason that we can’t all get along. I “don’t see” either Marty or the so-called “opposing group” contributing to a conflict. I do, however, see your above statements as doing so.

    That was my point.

    I see a whole lot of people trying to do what they think is the right thing, and I think they ALL should be celebrated.

  166. (Replied, but it got placed way below. Won’t presume to post a duplicate — it can be found below, if interested. Thanks.)

  167. Cult Classic indeed, past present and future!

  168. Nice comments Gayle. One of the things that stands out for me was Marty putting his arm around Mosey on their new deck, very serene. I guess beyond my exterior gruff I’m a romantic heart ~ or at least I can still love true love.

  169. Christianscientology, the illusion of MEST is caused by ‘movement with.’ This is why we meditate (Do TR0/1). We need to calm our inner turmoil, to see the outer reality before it disappears in a blur of motion, that leads to the confusion and misunderstanding that comes from constant (e)motion. Keep calm and carry on (Incredible Hulk versus Bruce Banner).

  170. Marty and Mosey were superb.
    ★★★★★ FIVE STARS ★★★★★

  171. The other Squirrel Buster! Remember her? Too Creepy! STALKING! Belongs in a horror film!

  172. Yes, Mosey did blow us all away, didn’t she!
    Makes me wonder: Would Marty have happened without her?
    Then of course, would Miscavige have happened without Marty?
    His books, most of all his latest, make me wonder…
    Would I have happened (be out!) without Marty? Probably not!
    Would LRH have happened without any of us? I think so!
    He’s source, after all, is the reason we are all here and talking!

  173. John Ritson

    Those were private security guards, hired for the event. There were a few real police there as well, just keeping an eye on things. The private security guards wear uniforms that look similar to police uniforms, but you can easily tell the difference as only the real police wear proper police helmets or hats.

  174. martyrathbun09

    I am not refering to any ‘solution’ he offered and I am not refering to ‘theory’ he posited. I am refering to – as noted – compendia of observations of other people who did apply a variety of solutions and theories and decribed results.

  175. Thanks for the validation Richard. Actually my name is Pip Threlfall. I would normally post under my name but because I also have a wordpress blog somehowe my responce on this blog got confused with my own. I also have two domains and Neither of them are active but hopefully as a result of watching Scientology at War all that is about to change.

  176. Hi Marildi

    I got all excited when I read your reply. The Scientology part of me wants to know about all religious beliefs, philosophies and therapies. I like to think that in that respect I am a “chip off the old lock” because I love understanding, the only difference being with the Jesus bit I re-interpret the word understanding as to stand under because the love aspect casts out fear and hopefully encourages humility.

    There is one interesting verse in the Bible that says “The word of God is sharper than any two edged sword and can divide between Soul and Spirit……. Hebrews 4:12. This I find a very interesting statement and then in Genesis in Chapter one it says that God made man in his image and likeness and in Chapter two that man became a living soul. Now we know from scripture God is spirit John 4:24 so here again we see the differentiation between soul and spirit.

    It is my opinion that LRH was out ethics on the eighth dynamic irrespective of the fact that in the front of his early books he listed various people from the past that he acknowledged, including Jesus. His big mistake was removing the word love from the subject to align with engineering principles and replacing it with the word affinity.

    Buddhism as you know has many similarities to Scientology in fact I am half way through “Understanding the Mind” by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.

    I run a “Thinkers” group here in Portsmouth UK and the subject of the mind is next Sunday’s topic. You can find me on Portsmouth Thinkers Group. Maybe the next subject we should look into is the difference between the soul and the spirit.

  177. Hello Marildi,
    the stuff you quoted from around ’51 is a good reference.
    I am considering anything in Scientology based on theory.
    If you find and listen to the lecture Para Scientology you will understand why and what I am referring to.

    Thetan / Mind. Yes, if you read the “Creation of Human Ability” Book, Ron even used sometimes the Mind for the Person (i.e. the thetan).
    After all it is all words.

  178. Per the definition of Independent, we are nothing but associated terminals anyway. Each person can be honored for being their own person. I am not the source of the conflict. That is wrong item for me.
    I asked that we NOT, do this. Not that anyone needs to look to me for opinions or guidance to conduct.

    Definition of INDEPENDENT

    : not dependent: as
    a (1) : not subject to control by others : self-governing (2) : not affiliated with a larger controlling unit
    b (1) : not requiring or relying on something else : not contingent (2) : not looking to others for one’s opinions or for guidance in conduct (3) : not bound by or committed to a political party
    c (1) : not requiring or relying on others (as for care or livelihood) (2) : being enough to free one from the necessity of working for a living
    d : showing a desire for freedom
    e (1) : not determined by or capable of being deduced or derived from or expressed in terms of members .

    As Independents there need be no conflicts.

  179. There is a plenty of creation myths around the globe.
    Also the tao te ching gives some insight to it (in chapter 42).

  180. I see.
    I used the word “theory” because for me all things in Scientology (and elsewhere) are only theories. I need to put something from myself in any teaching in order to look behind the theory.
    Thus, if it isn’t true for me, it isn’t true.

  181. As in:

    (1) : not subject to control by others : self-governing

    (2) : not affiliated with a larger controlling unit

    b (1) : not requiring or relying on something else : not contingent
    (2) : not looking to others for one’s opinions or for guidance in conduct (3) : not bound by or committed to a political party

  182. There are two different branches flying under an “Independent” Banner.

    There are independent people that think for themselves, which is what Marty has encouraged. It was under that theme the word “independent” Scientologists was used in the film.

    Then there is an Independent Scientology Organization forming up, which is Independent of the Mother Church, as a new group. With group mottos creeds as in “we believe” etc etc.

    What I really meant to say and should have said, is simply that these are not the same anymore. At one time everyone was part of this scene and working towards Independence as defined above.

    My own confusion and probably nobody else’s so, my bad on that.

    Two different meanings of independence in use in this arena.

    I am sure that was probably clear for everyone but me.

  183. And I agree, there is no reason why everyone shouldn’t get along. We should celebrate the FREEDOM OF CHOICE in such matters. And note that the people here are here because they want to think for themselves with out getting fair gamed or interrogated for thinking for themselves.

    The people that contribute to this blog are a writers group of Independent people. People are here to read and write. As themselves. And this is the first platform outside of the Church where this Freedom has existed.
    It is not a Scientology Organization or a copy of one.

  184. Joe Pendleton

    Let me understand this …….. you have to PAY to reach this woman’s level of “spiritual awareness”? Well, to put a new spin on an old tune …There’s no business like religion business like no business I know.

  185. WENGMAR, after many hours of contemplative review of my journey through time and space as the human identity, Monte, I am convinced that there is no randomness in the journey. I cannot help but be at the right place at the right time. That said, because the lion’s share of my attention is all too often focused in either the past or future, I don’t recognize that. But, even so, my not recognizing where I am does not change where I am. Instead, I’m just given more time in which to eventually have the recognition.

    The only thing I have in my journey through space and time that has any value or meaning for me is my story of my journey. And what I have come to see is that everyone and everything is, at some point in time, recognized as being an integral part of my story e.g., every story shared on Marty’s blog that I read becomes part of my story. Now included in my story is an address to WENGMAR. 🙂

  186. That said, I just don’t know of any Scientology Organizations that are supporting Marty as a writer. Or, Marty as a person who is encouraging people to think for themselves , decide for themselves, if those thoughts or decisions are counter to the goals of the Scientology Organizations. The reason for being in those groups is to let someone else think for you, L.Ron Hubbard. And they have a point in that some people, until they get a little more stable on their legs, are better off letting someone think for them. But on the other hand, people should not have fight for the right to think for themselves when they make that decision and take that plunge. You can see in the video above, the unfriendly reaction some people have to the notion of Independence. In the Church it is termed “INDIVIDUATION” and = “Something is very, very wrong with you”. That said, what is dissemination about then? What is child birth but an individuation from the Mother? Dissemination is
    1. To scatter widely, as in sowing seed.

    You have to let go of the seeds in your hand, before they can take root in the Earth. They only take root as individual plants, not part of the fucking fruit pulp.

  187. And the people in the Scientology Organizations feel compelled to HANG ON, CLASSIFY, ALTER, CHANGE, PUSH CONTROL ROUTE CORRECT and LABEL people until they are a certain standard.

    OR, they have to UNMOCK THEM altogether!

    There is NO in between of just BEING THERE COMFORTABLY with another person. Even though they all attest to the first TR!

    It is a CRIME to grant beingness and not push pull organize label recruit charge audit reg train preach or CONTROL the other person. That is NOT granting beingness, and that is NOT being there comfortably with another.

    In fact, Marty has his TR’s in.

  188. He can be there comfortably with heads of state, Government officials, Movie Stars, Police, Reporters, critics, writers, speakers, P.C.’s, People from all walks of life and all religions and all backgrounds. And he had only been attacked by Scientology Organizations for doing just that. Being there comfortably.

  189. Well, why did they sell him the communications course?

  190. Why sell someone the Communications Course, get them through it, and then lay down the law!

    1. There are people you must avoid.
    2. There are people you must disconnect from.
    3. There are people you must harm attack and suppress.
    4. There are things you must NEVER NEVER say!

    And if you do NOT agree with that, you are a suppressive person. But guess what, if you do agree with that, and you run it on others, you are also a suppressive person. You are suppressing people.

    So, you have two fold hat in a Scientology Organization.

    1. To go OT.
    2. To be an S.P.

    How is that for a GPM?

  191. And here are your suppressive OT’s!

  192. martyrathbun09

    No, you are not. You are talking out of school, judging something of which you know not. A terrible habit implanted in Scientology.

  193. Perhaps you didn’t understand the IMPORTANCE of not creating NEW BAD KARMA.

    People who continue to do harmful things on a daily basis, continue to create NEW BAD KARMA … and they have lives filled with despair, Hills 10’s, chaos on a daily basis.

    They react to those chaotic bad experiences by doing MORE HARMFUL ACTIONS. They don’t burn up their bad karma, they create NEW BAD KARMA.

    It is ONLY by BEING and experiencing the backlash of SH** from prior harmful actions and NOT responding in kind — just being in PT — and sucking it up with the bad stuff that is all around you BUT NOT RESPONDING in kind … that you burn up the bad karma.

    MARTY did not create NEW BAD KARMA — he endured over 200 days of constant pressure by the Squirrel Busters and more … he always handled himself calming and sanely …

    It is only by confronting our own “evil-ness” that it burns up.

    The operative word is confront. Be there comfortably without reacting.

    Hope this clarifies my point. 🙂

  194. marildi,
    Excellent contribution to the discussion on this blog. When I studied OT8
    on the Freewinds(1988), I spent a lot of time on the following LRH quote
    which you bring in to the discussion:

    “Actually a thetan is in a very, very small amount of mass”. LRH

    It is actually, IMHO, one of the keys to the scientology bridge. This is the point where the fulcrum of scientology rests. I spent a lot of time with a
    twin from Japan and we covered this from every possible angle.
    These days I don’t need to think about any of it because
    “right effort” actually handles all of it. But, in the end, the statement
    by LRH: “very,very small amount of mass” is more meaningful than the sum total of all of the words he ever wrote and spoke.

    George M. White

  195. I will ALWAYS attest for both of you …. Marty and Mosey, I love you guys! Love, e

  196. Pingback: Scientologists at War | 31 Factors

  197. “judging something of which you know not”
    What do I don’t know?
    You think I never experienced a “peak experience”?
    You came into the conversation I had with Marildy with something which was not even part of the communication.
    I stated that the static is a theory. And it is. You came with Maslow and his works.
    I like Maslow and I think his contributions are great.
    So what is it “I know not” and what exactly was the point you wanted to make in the first place?

  198. Just a sample of one of the many new contacts made since Monday; this from a lady been off lines for nigh on 30 years:

    “Cheers Martin, will you please tell that man [Marty] that was on the BBC program (if you know him or have his email addy) that I think he did a GREAT thing I feel bad that he has had to go thru so much grief. It is a good way for others to learn about S, and not feel afraid. Hope you didn’t get allot of hassle either. Just starting to read the first book. X”

    Sent from my iPad

    On 20 Jun 2013, at 12:27 PM, “Martin Padfield” wrote:

  199. martyrathbun09

    No. I read your first line, sighed, and decided not to read the rest. It is a habit with hard core Scientologists. You just mock it up incessantly. The defensiveness is so palpable, it is obnoxious.

  200. Marty, you are so out of comm I don’t even know what you are talking about. Sorry.

  201. martyrathbun09

    And you are worse than the psychs you mock up in terms of judgmentalism, arrogance, stereotyping and labelling. That is why I won’t wear your labels any longer.

  202. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    Hi everybody,

    The last days I was trhinking about milestone 2; about its stated purpose of preserving the tech and wanting to help mankind.I would be curious about what the people here think about it. I asked myself if this is really needed and wanted ?
    Why should the tech be preserved and stay static ?It’s all over the Internet and I don’t think it will magically disappear.
    In the last 20 years humanity evolved at great stride. People live about 5-10 years longer. Less and less wars and and the stats of people dying in wars are totally crashing. The people in China and india made great progress and africa starts to calm down. The internet did more for the clearing of the planet by spreading knowledge around and educating millions of people that would never had acces to knowledge. People as k for more freedoms and want to get rid of despots !

    Billions of people (just look at the membership of the red cross) are members of organizations that are helping mankinfd in all aspects.

    It looks like the Theta Mest Theory is working and mankind is on it’s way to become mature. I hope so !

    Milestone 2 sounds to me very familiar and it’s pushing buttons I had once and where I reacted with: ” Yes Sir, I’m on board !”

    But I just ask myself this question;
    Will doing the same again lead to another result ?

  203. “psychs you mock up in terms of judgmentalism, arrogance, stereotyping and labelling”
    You can’t possibly talk about me, Marty.
    It is you who above started with “ Recommended to expand imprisoned horizons” whereas “expand horizons” would actually communicate by itself.
    Did I ever write on your blog something against any “psychs” you are referring to?
    I am not labeling people as you say I would.

  204. Between the video and the your current book which I have just finished I had no idea of your situation and what was really going on while I was away from the corporate church. Thank you and Mosey and thank all you auditors who keep at it. ARC Bill Dupree

  205. martyrathbun09

    This is my living room – ref blog mediation policy. You can come back here when you have done something to make amends and show respect to my wife for frequenting and supporting a room that has published that she and her husband faked the harassment we received for four years. Good riddance.

  206. Dear Marty and Mosey, I am very happy to see that you found a beautiful and peaceful place for yourselves. I wish you all the best and thankfully remember your help.
    I am also leaving back to Russia, where my help is needed and wanted, and where there is a lot to learn, I look forward to rediscover the cultural roots, the original (before Cyrillic) language and original (before Christianity) Veda’s belief system. Thank you, guys, for been the incredible beings you are, for doing what you do. It is deeply appreciated!

  207. martyrathbun09

    Bon Voyage. I would love to hear what you learn of the Veda.

  208. Mrs. Libnish

    I watched the video and thought it was fantastic. I read all about the fair gaming you and Mosey went through, but seeing the look on your wife’s face and hearing about it first hand really made the horror sink in. My husband would have come unglued and done some serious bodily damage at a much earlier stage than the “waaaaah…he put a small scratch on my forehead” incident. That punk needs to man up. I am SO happy that his pussdom is on the internet for ALL to see and laugh about.

    I agree with Mosey’s assessment that you need to move forward, keep your head on straight and don’t dwell on the past. You’ve done what your conscience has told you to do. That is enough, you can’t please all the people all the time.

    Tony and everyone else featured in the video all contributed a great deal. i was fascinated.

    I am at the point in your book when you started your two day hitchhike back to Portland after your brother was committed. You had just shot putted the pear and put Roland the douche in his place. Life was good. I identified a lot with your early years…who wouldn’t??? It has made you a lot more human in my eyes and not so much the big bad “Enforcer”. I also am happy to report that I laughed out loud in several places, so far. I loved “Crazy” too…he sounds like he influenced your way of thinking at an early age that has stuck with you (Tao, existentialism, etc). I’ll continue to read and report back or ask questions. I’m glad I bought it.

  209. George, Russians are proud to this day of their bloody but successful defense of their country in WWII. I don’t think Stalin had much to do with it. I don’t think WWII changed him, either.

    Stalin was not himself Russian; , He was from Georgia, an old, proud, but small country whose glory was in the past and that had been dominated by the “Russian bear” to its north for centuries.

    My own speculation is that Stalin’s ascendancy over the Soviet Union was “Georgia’s revenge” on the Russian people.

    Russians who lived through WWII say that under Stalin, Georgian men were not drafted to fight in the Soviet army, and that Georgians had plenty to eat while Russians and the other ethnic groups of the Soviet Union starved.

    In any case I believe Stalin was brutal from the beginning. But that was nothing new,in terms of the Russian rulers(tsars) over the centuries.

  210. Hello SKM. Yes, I’ve seen places where LRH equated the mind with the person. In fact, here is a definition of analytical mind from the Tech Dictionary, which I believe is the way LRH actually viewed it, regardless of other constructs or models he wrote about:

    “5. we say the analytical mind is kind of a misnomer because most people think it’s some kind of computing machine, and it’s not, it’s just the pc, the thetan. (SH Spec 23, 6106C29)”

    I don’t know if I would agree with you that “anything” in Scientology is based on theory. I’m not familiar with that lecture you mentioned, but I looked up para-Scientology in the tech vols and found some very interesting data about it in PAB 2, excerpted below. I think it’s clear from this excerpt that LRH considered direct perception to be of prime importance, as opposed to theory. He states there that “knowledge depends upon perception”. And, incidentally, in this reference too he refers to the “individual…as an analytical mind”!

    From PAB 2:
    “In Issue 16-G, which may be a bit delayed, I am laying out this whole subject of Scientology as ‘Science of Certainty’. Scientology deals now in nothing but certainties. Those things which are uncertainties, such as metaphysics, spirits, other worlds, space opera, whole track, GE Line, are all being put into the bin called para-Scientology. The auditing we do is directed towards the establishment of certainties, and in itself works only with certainties. Prenatals, engrams and facsimiles—anything which anybody would consider uncertain does not belong on the main line.

    “What is the level of awareness which we will accept as being a level of awareness? It would be: Can a man stand looking at a tree and know that he is standing there looking at a tree, or if he is blind, can he stand there and feel a tree and know that he is feeling a tree? This man is sufficiently aware to be considered for our purposes fairly sane. Awareness goes from there on up into expanding certainties. How aware is awareness? It is as aware as it is certain. What is knowledge? Knowledge is certainty.
    Is data knowledge? No, data is not knowledge. A certainty is knowledge. Therefore knowledge depends upon perception.

    “Is certainty an absolute? No, it is relative. What are the two ends of the spectrum of certainties? Here you’re looking straight at the theta-MEST theory. There is nothing, there is something. Here you have the nothingness of the static and the somethingness of all motion.

    “Now, what are we considering, then, at the bottom level of all acceptable certainty? It is a certainty when one is standing looking at a tree and one sees a tree; or, if one can’t see, having no MEST vision, one can feel a tree: that is certainty. And that is the bottom level of certainty that we’re going to accept as a certainty. What’s the top level of certainty? Well, we’re not interested in the top level of certainty because it goes too high to observe.

    “In the last bulletin I talked about three universes. There are numbers of viewpoints of these universes and one is as certain as he is certain of these three universes. But one can become more certain than that to the degree that he is aware. Communication establishes awareness as a mechanism. The three universes give us something of which to be aware. Therefore, this perception is in itself certainty and this certainty is in itself knowledge and thus we can achieve what we would consider an acceptable certainty.

    “What is an acceptable certainty? It is a certainty that the three universes exist in terms of perceptions: one’s own universe, the MEST universe and the other fellow’s universe. When we have established these, we will find that an individual can assume viewpoints which are not dependent upon the body and can perceive these universes as an analytical mind directly. We don’t ask anybody to be certain of this until it happens.

    “Thus from these three certainties with MEST eyes, we go into these three certainties on a direct level. What we will call a ‘stability’ for want of a better word at this time and to replace the word ‘Clear’ about which there is a tremendous amount of confusion, would be one who can, without the assistance of MEST eyes, perceive with complete certainty the three universes from many viewpoints. We reach this state with a person by leading him up the gradient scale of certainties, taking him at the certainty level where we find him, wherever that is—even if it is psychotic, neurotic or normal level—and raising him on upscale until he is certain of his own universe, the MEST universe and other people’s universes.

    “You have observed the phenomenon of people who were theta exteriors getting back into the body and not being able to get out again. This is because they were actually insufficiently aware and because they ran into this one single aberration: ‘They must not reach away from MEST’.”

  211. Hi George. Learning a little about Buddhism recently, I got interested again in theta vs. thetan as I never really understood how “static” fit in with each. I had seen that quote about a thetan being in a very, very small amount of mass in *The Scientology Picture Book* back in the 80’s (I don’t know if it’s in later editions). I tried in the past to find out where it came from originally because it didn’t seem to fit in with other references – but it made so much sense to me in relation to other references about ARC, the tone scale, and other things to do with energy and wavelengths. Just yesterday I finally found the quote in the Phoenix Lectures. What you say about it being one of the keys to the Bridge and “the point where the fulcrum of Scientology rests” I think is probably right!

    As you know the Buddha avoided all the confusions about spirit and soul and anything that wasn’t directly observable. Instead, he simply worked out a path that had one looking directly. Based on the excerpt from PAB 2 that I quoted above in my reply to SKM, I would say LRH basically tried to work out such a path too. But along with it, he engaged in a lot of “para-Scientology” discussion. From the book *What the Buddha Taught*, I got that the Buddha recommended against such discussion as it simply took the person off the path of direct perception into contemplating the rocks in some pretty canyon that does not lead out of the labyrinth of suffering (LOL, the Buddha’s own “Safeguarding Scientology” – in spades). And maybe he was right, 🙂

  212. I am dismayed that whoever was running these people was sending them to this home to stand at the top of these stairs and ser fac on someone. Every film clip of these attackers has them standing right at the top of these stairs ser facing.

    So, if someone at the top of the stairs is a bit reactive, the person ser facing is going to fly backwards down the steps. And, these people were set up by a “Church” to do this. Stand at the top of the steps on a motivator flow.

    This is the cognition I have had about “putting others ethics in”. “When you take that purpose on, you are only agreeing to get sucked into someone else’s motivator flows. Since I have spotted that, (who every wittingly mocks that up as a purpose except police?), a lot of funky bad vibes have moved off of my space.

  213. Marty
    1) I have respect for your wife
    2) I am not aware of people who say such things and if there are any, I don’t share this opinion
    3) What does it have to do with this thread?
    4) I am a independent person with my own mind. You of course can think of me what you want – as it is your good right – but I can speak for myself and I am not part of any “borg” nor am I operating on rumors or 3rd party.
    5) Please point me to the source of the origination (i.e. you and your wife were faking something). I’d like to have it brought to my attention

  214. Hi Pip. The additional data about spirit and soul as given in the Christian scripture you quoted seems to me to be quite similar to my understanding of theta and thetan. That was exciting for me too! Thanks very much.

    And thanks for the data about your group. I’ll check it out. 🙂

  215. Monte, your “vivid imagination” may actually be pretty good intuition. I think Bruce Lipton, the cell biologist, came to the same conclusion, based on his research. It makes sense to me too when I think of the eighth dynamic in terms of being able to assume all viewpoints. 🙂

  216. I should have said “Safeguarding Buddhism”. 😉

  217. Thank you for challenging me. I never said Marty claimed to coining a term.

    I get it that you don’t see anyone acting as squirrel busters or attacking Marty for being a squirrel.

    My responses are connected to the thread so some may notice that I chose to respond. As independents, neither of us are: (2) : looking to others for one’s opinions or for guidance in conduct . So, we should be all good.

    Thanks for talking to me, showing me what you didn’t
    see, what is going on.

    That is valid too.

    Peace and best wishes to you. XXOO

  218. Interested and addressed when found below.

  219. Hello Marildi,
    “I think it’s clear from this excerpt that LRH considered direct perception to be of prime importance, as opposed to theory.”
    Yes, this is the take. Problems with any study begin when people begin to substitute words and parables for certainties. A whole lot of people in the church operate on the basis of “LRH said if we sell 25 Dianetics books we get one Scientologist” as if the statement “If it isn’t written it isn’t true” would also mean “If it is written it is the Truth”.
    In the lecture “Para-Scientology” LRH speaks of “Para-Scientologists”. 😛
    I recommend this lecture to anyone who wants to “break away” from adopted knowledge and move up to find his own truth.
    The date of the lecture is 20. April 1955.
    The lecture also contains a broader description of the term “Para-Scientology” than the other references.

  220. martyrathbun09

    You’ll see it soon enough.

  221. p.s. Maybe the Buddha was right to avoid all metaphysical discussion, but I think LRH was right too in searching for a more systematic route for direct perception. I wonder if his excursions into philosophical theory and all the MU’s it can and did create was what lead things astray and eventually led LRH himself astray from his original views. (Just to complete a thought there.)

  222. LOL – “para-Scientologists” 😀 Good one. We are in agreement about too much being interpreted literally.

    And thanks for the data on that lecture.

  223. cre8tivewmn

    The answer, apparently, is yes. Their entire follow-up website to the doc is very 1984. Remembering old-fact is double un-good!

  224. And, MY final thoughts on K.S.W. are this:

    In K.S.W. series Hubbard is saying COPY ME, COPY ME EXACTLY.

    BUT, when you get up to reading the NOTS materials, Hubbard discusses how aberrated it is to COPY.

    But, COPY is part of learning. Children copy speech to get a vocabulary. Later in life, they use those words to communicate their own ideas, which may be original (or not), thoughts.

  225. Some people prefer to continue to COPY HUbbard, his ideas and words.
    They expect every Scientologist to do the same ot there is “something wrong with them”.
    I think getting up the bridge means you become self confident enough to be yourself, an original.

  226. marildi,
    Yes, I have come to the conclusion that scientology does contain a
    lot of truth. When I really concentrate on the Buddha’s path, I don’t get into
    a comparison of scientology and buddhism. Many years ago you
    could get a big rise out of me with even the slightest hint that
    scientology had anything at all to do with buddhism. It was like lack of
    acceptance of any other viewpoint. When I heard any reference to
    buddhism by a scientologist, I felt attacked by western cowboys.
    Now I can listen to almost any discussion without irritation.
    This quotation about “very, very small amount of mass for the thetan”,
    always, even from day one, was the ultimate key. IMHO. It is like going to
    buy a new car. When you get to the final price, you wonder if you
    got a good deal. How close am I to production cost? Same thing
    with Scientology. How much mass is really left? Big, Big question.
    George M. White

  227. Those words might be going overboard a slight bit? 🙂 I noticed Mosie was a kind compassionate loving caring forgiving and understanding lady. 🙂 Just kidding! 🙂

  228. A humbled Tom Gallagher

    Utterly beautiful SKM. Thanks for this short film and the message therein.

  229. I am a bit confused. In the video they said that Marty is no longer a Scientologist. Is this true? If the video is outdated what are the current state of things? (I thought it was pretty much up to date but I guess I have missed some important memo)

  230. Pingback: The Way Out Is Not The Way Back In | Moving On Up a Little Higher

  231. A humbled Tom Gallagher


    Your video documentation of this issue concerning all the bads and all the goods are historically significant.

    For example:

    I wish you all the best, but I truly think your relocation is sanity demonstrated.

  232. martyrathbun09

    See latest post.

  233. martyrathbun09

    Thanks Roger. See latest post.

  234. A humbled Tom Gallagher


    I think you and Phil speak truth. Actually I know it. I hope others come to these understandings Under 36 minutes…..

    Note 1952.

  235. Mosey…I just want to give you a big hug…you’re awesome! Marty is one smart guy to have found you…I hope you BOTH are happy in your new digs!

  236. “…attacked by western cowboys”. Funny image. 😀

    Can you say a bit more about what you meant when you said the quote that a thetan is in a very, very small amount of mass is “the ultimate key”. How does that relate to wondering if you “got a good deal”, and the question “How much mass is really left?” (I assume you’re talking about your Bridge.)

    The quotes below may (or may not) be relevant. What would you say?

    From Scn 8-80:
    “How, then, does one strip away facsimiles from the present time of the preclear? The auditor would have to audit billions of them to erase all the facsimiles the preclear has made or ‘borrowed’ and which now act heavily upon him, giving him illness, degradation and aberration – as well as amnesia as to his actual past.

    “We can rehabilitate the preclear by raising his ability to create energy, and thus bring him to a ‘speed’ which has sufficient output for him to overcome facsimiles. We do this by erasing or reducing certain facsimiles, and, in doing so, retrain our preclear to produce a higher energy potential.”

    From Scn 8-8008″
    “It was found that there was no purpose in reducing incidents out of the reactive mind beyond the point where the analytical mind could step apart from the reactive mind, and then command it.”

  237. + 1 Just fabulous.

  238. p.s. Btw, that last quote, “…the analytical mind could step apart from the reactive mind, and then command it” – is another reference for equating the mind with the being.

  239. Hi SKM

    You are right when you say the difference between theta and a thetan is theoretical, for the simple reason that by definition theta has no mass. Having no mass it is TOTAL SIGNIFICANCE. Now! A thetan has mass albeit a very small amount and therefore is not total significance, and equally cannot duplicate theta without violating the communication formula.

    And here is the clever bit. Although a thetan cannot duplicate theta, theta can BECOME a thetan, and this is exactly what happened some 2000 years ago. The word (Theta) became flesh (theta+mass) and as I once stood up in church and said “Jesus is the mass of God’s significance”. Mind you, at the time I did not dare to tell them that was pure Scientology.

    The Factors are an amazing piece of writing except that they start with a wrong premise, and as Mrs Eddy (the founder of Christian Science) would say “If you start with the wrong premise you will end with the wrong conclusion”.

    How the Factors should start is “Before the beginning there was personhood and the entire purpose of personhood is the creation of effect. In the beginning was the decision and the decision was to be….etc”

    Personhood precedes being, most people believe that being precedes personhood, but this is a mistake. Reference

    Yes! Without embracing the eighth dynamic it is all, as you rightly say theory, but when the God dynamic is embraced it becomes certainty. That is why I am a ChristianScientologist and my raison de’tre is to practice LOVE and UNDERSTANDING.

    Love and ARC

  240. Well put, Monty! A little too general for me though.
    I was trying to communicate something a little more specific.
    And I meant to say it by signing with my name.
    Marcel Wenger

  241. Donald King

    I’ve watched your documentary twice now. Personally, I don’t think much of Scientology either as a faith or as an intellectual system. I’ve read enough of Hubbard’s books and heard enough of his lectures to make my mind up. At the end of her recent book, Jessica Miscavige Hill writes that the problem is not David Miscavige but Hubbard. The danger of resurrecting Scientology without Miscavige is the resurrection of the same authoritarian system. The same thing happened after the death of Herbert W. Armstrong – the WCG broke up, and those that wanted to follow Armstrong’s beliefs turned out to be as dictatorial as him in their new churches.
    Still, I regard you as a brave man – you have as much right as anybody else to believe and to do just what he wants. The question of whether you truly ‘repent’ of what you (and many others) did while you were in the ‘Church’ is a matter for yourself – and not for others.
    Best wishes.

  242. You’ll see it soon enough.
    Have seen nothing yet.
    What has anything of your yesterdays post to do with this thread?

  243. martyrathbun09

    Who are you talking to? And what is it you are responding to? You are becoming quite the emanator of developed, unnecessary, and distracting traffic.

  244. I was talking to you, Marty.
    I just don’t understand why you interfered into this thread the way you did.
    You are trying hard to run a imagined item on me (“cultist with imprisoned horizon”), or – respectively – you try to push this button on me. But this thing is flat. No other reaction than wondering where you are going. As I say, I am not operating on any 3rd Party, any rumors and nothing such. I am able to use my own two “thinking cells” to make my own picture of the situation.
    I may not always be right – but who may?
    It’s not even my goal to always be right.

  245. martyrathbun09

    Let go.

  246. Sorry – should be Jenna, not Jessica.

  247. Hello Marty
    My name is Matt and I was a Sea Org Member at Saint Hill UK for six years. I was part of the golden age of tech. as a course supervisor. I joined Scientology to help people. But as I moved further up the ranks I realised that it was all motivated towards money rather than helping people. It was definitely not how LRH intended it to be. For that reason I left Scientology as it seemed to me just a money making racket with all the money going up lines to the people at the top ie. RTC/David Miscavage like a pyramid organisation. I have just seen the programme ‘Scientologists at War’, I remember you! I am very proud of what you have done and having the guts to stand up and go with what your heart really feels. I am now happily married and have a family, job and a normal life. I benefitted enormously from the initial courses and still think Scientology works. But only as LRH intended it. Not the warped version that is headed up by David Miscavage today. Thanks again and all the best for the future.

  248. It’s Anna Stilo!
    Creepy souvenirs with her from 1972 to 1998…….

  249. Belatedly an immense thank you and big hug to you Marty and Mosey for your incredible fight and work to help get us to where we are now.
    What can be better than a huge revival of Theta! – Greta

  250. UK viewers who missed it can watch it here for the next 18 days:

  251. Pingback: War on “Scientologists at War” | Moving On Up a Little Higher

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