The Way Out Is Not The Way Back In

The church of Scientology and David Miscavige have had zero influence on my recent announcement that I will no longer wear the label “Scientologist.”   Scientology Inc. lost in their effort to silence us and to prevent us from using what we learned of the mind and spirit from L. Ron Hubbard’s work.  We succeeded in our four-year effort to free the methodologies of Hubbard for independent application in accordance with practitioners’ consciences.  What prompted me to eschew the “Scientologist” label was the conduct of those we paved the way for while we were withstanding  the very best shots Scientology Inc. could and did take at us.

I hold no malice for any particular individuals.  I understand – and so too might you if you read and consider Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior – that these folks really are doing everything they can to be the very best Scientologists they think they can be.  And that is at the heart of the sickness they exhibit. While we were fighting for their right to practice Scientology, eleven folks instead of practicing it figured out how to monopolize it, at least in their own minds.  They put together a corporation that proclaims ownership of independent Scientology under the name Milestone Two Ltd.  Based on my experience with its secretly chosen 11 founding member ruling council, having read as much as I could of their charter before giving up after losing count of the points of hypocrisy (and duplication of the original Scn Inc intent and activity, including policing in KSW and a ‘justice committee’ to deal with ‘out-ethics actions which are destructive to statistics’) within it, I concluded that if these folks were honest they would call themselves “Scientology Inc, Ltd” or perhaps “Squirrelbusters Light.”   And that is how I will refer to them from here on out.

I am going to share some facts that led to this conclusion (mostly in the chosen 11’s words).  But I am not going to single out individuals.  I care for them all.  I still hope one day they too can graduate from the cult mindset within which they are imprisoned.  And while some of them have declared me an SP, in Treason, a Squirrel – and as we shall see worse –  I will not return the fire because I understand, like their alleged second biggest bogeyman (apparently I am number one now) David Miscavige, how they are simply an inevitable product of the Scientology system.

The new self-appointed leaders of the independent movement dramatize – self-righteously, arrogantly and defiantly – all that is wrong with the church of Scientology (except perhaps in a  less disciplined, organized and competent fashion as the church – hence the adjectives ‘Ltd’, and ‘Light’).  That their war-like attitude is inculcated by Scientology is evident by their insistence in wrapping themselves in L. Ron Hubbard tech and policy with every one of their hostile utterances.  Another tell-tale indicator is their apparently irresistible compulsion to target and blame at every turn.  They will insist they ‘supported’ us in our fight all the way – while instead to a one, they hid, rode coattails and served as persistent distractions.

I will not refer to the chosen 11 by name and won’t allow witch hunting, and ad hominen diatribes in the comments threads.  That is their game, and apparently one they learned in their Scientology experiences – given their continual assertions of how ‘on Source’ they are.

Let us start the facts rundown with something perhaps fresh in people’s minds – the Roast Beef Productions documentary Scientologists at War.

Scientology Inc Ltd founder #1 (numbers 1-11 are arbitrarily assigned since they have represented – or misrepresented – to the public that they all are of equal import having somehow miraculously gravitated together into a cluster) published the following with respect to the historical events chronicled about my wife and me in Scientologists at War:

“They were themselves [Marty and Monique Rathbun] using the harassment to establish their cover.”

I submit nothing else need be considered to justify the conclusions that I have already shared at the outset of this post.  However, since I don’t foresee addressing this issue again, and for the benefit of the conscience impaired who haven’t seen all they need to see with the above,  I’ll continue quoting Scientology Inc Ltd founder #1’s published views about me and my work.

“[Marty] justifies [his]own cesspool of past crimes (instead of taking responsibility for them) by “lessening the overt” i.e. criticizing the subject and blaming it for [his] own harmful deeds, still pretending [his] corrupted version of Scientology was the real thing.”

His screed goes on to call me “weak”, “blind”, a “Career Nazi”, an “SS Officer”,  “Gestapo”, “a legitimate 2 ½ percent CoS war criminal”, compared me to “professional psychologists and mental counsellors”,  and a “sociopath”.

When weakly  challenged on all this by someone at the Milestone Two Ltd on-line forum, he defended it (also published) by reference to PTS/SP tech claiming he got sick by my supposed operation to fake harassment and “tricking ex members” into providing me with a “safe haven”, and he got well by coming to these conclusions.

Scientology Inc. Ltd founder 2:

Attempted to out a comment poster (by posting the person’s name) on my blog with whom he disagreed.  When I disallowed the post as a spiteful and personal attack on a person he had received a tremendous amount of money from to help – far more than I have ever received for services from anyone – he accused me of being in league with and funded by his client.  Neither charge was true.  He then plied me with a barrage of minister-client privileged ‘facts’ about the character of the family of his client in an effort to enlist me to vilify them with him.  I declined and pointed out his grotesque, unethical (and factually illegal) violation of confidences he was paid handsomely to keep.  Upon investigation it turned out that the person he was going to ‘out’ and personally attack was not even the person he was quarreling with on the blog thread.  Shortly after that kurfluffle he posted this on my blog:

“Watching that video [my own description of the Int base] the other day on The Hole, in a new unit of time, the egregious facts emerge. You were there and very much involved in the entire lead up to that insanity. An integral part of probably the most suppressive group in the history of Scientology, RTC.”

This all broke out in a discussion in which Mike Rinder and I mentioned that we had first hand knowledge that L. Ron Hubbard re-instated the Disconnect policy in 1983.  Apparently to prove how heretical such a notion was – because apparently ‘Disconnect’ is such a diabolical policy –  he disconnected from me and began a whispering campaign with other eventual Scientology Inc Ltd founding members against me which has continued to this day which resulted in the formation of Scientology Inc. Ltd.

Scientology Inc. Ltd Founder #3: 

This individual came out on my blog at the height of the Scn Inc Squirrelbusters raids upon our home claiming our actions were saving Scientology.   Within weeks this individual published a testimonial on one of Office of Special Affairs’ 35 plus anti-Marty websites claiming I was driving people off the bridge by misinforming them that there was no justice to be had in the church and producing nothing but ‘natter.’  The individual claimed to have received 100% standard handling by David Miscavige’s church of Scientology.  Later, the other ten wise men of the Scientology Inc Ltd council were seduced by this individual with similar claims about me, necessitating that they take charge of independent Scientology.    It leaves one asking, ‘taking charge on who’s behalf?’

Scientology Inc. Ltd. Founder #4:

Here are some of the bases upon which he has declared me in writing to be ‘an enemy’ and in treason  and in confusion (apparently I’m in all three conditions at once) to L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology:

“Your response to the attack of Miscavige is quite predictably stimulus and response, and is how any trained and intelligent person would respond if he had completely lost the plot and taken on “winning the fight” as his stable datum instead of applying Scientology fundamentals to the resolution of the bigger picture.  It seems to me that, rather than tangling with the cur dogs nipping at the wheels of the fire engine, you have become one of them. “

“Much of the Indy field, having certainty on the fact that DM is an SP, sided with you, figuring that if the SP is attacking you, you must be a good guy!  These are not necessarily correlating facts.  Both guys in a bar fight might still beat their wives.  The point here is not that I think you are an SP, which wouldn’t matter a damn anyway one way or the other.  What matters here is, who do YOU think you are? “

“I think the site [Moving On Up A Little Higher] must attract people who share your confusion and thus find solace in the fact that they are not alone.  This is NOT the condition we need to share!!”

“You had never done, as far as I can detect, a really good handling on the conditions you created with DM.  How many years did you work with the guy?  How much damage to the church – and to the forward progress of Scientology – was done as a result of it?… It puts your recent ponderings and degrades of Scientology and LRH in to  a new perspective as it is not so grievous  an overt to arrest the growth of something that does not completely work, or a Founder who actually put his pants on one leg at a time. Now, let’s all pause to meditate…. !!”

“You supported yourself by taking whatever people would give you in exchange for your auditing skills – which is propitiative and a degrade in its own right.  This does not contribute to Scientology or it’s dissemination.”

“You live in the boondocks, lobbing grenades from your bunker and inviting the Indy field, itself looking for stable data, to participate in the dialogue… This is cur dog activity, however else it is justified.”

““UPPER LEVELS. There are other OT levels above VIII but these will be released from time to time when people are ready for them. We’re already higher than Man has ever been and it can get quite stratospheric.” L. Ron Hubbard”   The notion that you would express opinions so obviously contrary to LRH is treason at the least, and more likely simply another dramatization of confusion.”

“You need a good, thorough ethics program.  I don’t know how real all of this is to you, but it is real enough to me to alert you in this regard.”

He pronounced me to be in treason for not ruthlessly following the seven points of power in the policy letter The Responsibilities of Leaders.

Scientology Inc. Ltd founding member #5:

“I think your attack on Scientology and LRH is because you are going to take Scn, and “fix it” and become the new “source”. The only thing blocking your way is “KSW”. It made no sense at first for you to say that KSW blocks thought. Made no sense at all because it is just a treatise from LRH to protect his tech. But then I realized that if you blow KSW out of the water, then you are free to take Scientology from LRH (who is also bad) and turn it into your own technology.”

“Marty, you haven’t been around enough to be the scholar you think you are. You write only from an Ivory Tower. I look at your past products and they align with your new track. When you get into life and start experiencing it and getting good products – in volume, then I will treat you as someone who has somewhere to communicate from.”

“It makes you look a little 1.1 – gather up all of the field, get them listening to you and then doing a 180 and trashing Scn in front of them is pretty much making you look like a modern Pied Piper. Please – realize you have unhandled o’s and w’s”

He too pronounced me to be in treason for not ruthlessly following the seven points of power in the policy letter The Responsibilities of Leaders.

This fellow who accused me of having designs on the “Source” position is garnering a lot of credibility in the Milestone Two community by pronouncing that he’s got OT IX, X, XI, and XII (so, don’t despair wise man #4) which apparently he received telepathically from Ron.

Scientology Inc. Ltd founding members 6, 7, and 8:

Have made repeated assertions that they are my friends, yet have encouraged and supported this assault.  They plead ignorance.  And just as quickly I will note that that too is the hallmark of a Scientology organization.  If you want to create an organization and profit from its collective power, then you are responsible for the fruit it produces.

Scientology Inc. Ltd founding member 9:

Don’t know much about this person except that this person publically invalidated wonderful efforts by an OT VIII, integral Scientologist friend of mine to get another Scientology Inc. Ltd founding member on his feet and into practice – and when pointed out to both of these people,  neither took effective action to restore the damage done to my friend’s reputation.

Scientology Inc. Ltd founding member 10: 

A wonderful, tolerant person.   He is absolutely being used – for credibility purposes – and has no inkling of it.

Scientology Inc. Ltd founding member 11:

I really don’t know him from Adam.  The only thing I’ve heard from him is an impassioned plea to reconsider that the late-Kingsley Wimbush was misunderstood, that de-dinging was really on Source.

None of the people whom I have repeatedly publicly recommended as the only integral Scientology pracitioners – each of whom has far more training and decades more products than any of the eleven – I  regularly refer people to were consulted or offered positions on the council of secretly anointed 11.  Not surprisingly, neither was I.

I will tell you honestly that I found communication with the Scientology Inc. Squirrelbusters far less evaluative, far less hostile, far more uptone, and far more infused with ARC than the communications I have received from the core of the Squirrelbusters Light, the Scientology Inc Ltd 11.

Five of the eleven Scientology Inc. Ltd rulers have spent time in our home in the past year.   All of them were invited for the express purpose of telling me where I am wrong, proposing how independent Scientology should proceed, and make any other suggestions.  All of them expressed nothing but cloying admiration for our work (to the point it was uncomfortable for us).  Not one of them raised even a hint of any of the condemnations I have re-published above, nor even asked any questions that would indicate I should even reconsider any step in my life journey.    It is my experience with these people that has led me to investigate what is it about Scientology that encourages an attitude of entitlement and a character marked by cowardice and deceit.  More on that in my next book on the subject of how to graduate from Scientology.

If one didn’t fully understand Scientology,  it would fairly make one wonder whether Scientology Inc. Ltd was not simply a creation of the original Scientology Inc.   But, the question is purely academic.  That is because certainly, the published founding documents of the former guarantees that ‘independent scientology’ ultimately must become that which it resists, the latter.  If you read and consider Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior, you might come to a similar conclusion that I did: the whole thing was predictable, even inevitable.

I don’t plan on spending any more time or mental energy on them.  I consider them – at best – a distraction.  Its authors and directors have already drained enough of our resources – physical, mental and spiritual.

Suffice it to say, the way out is not the way back in.

I have represented since before the inception of this blog that my purpose is to help folk graduate from this type of madness (reference: Welcome page).   After all we’ve experienced in the past four years, that purpose is stronger than ever.

621 responses to “The Way Out Is Not The Way Back In

  1. Thanks for sorting out the noise and harmonic distortion Marty!

  2. Nice Marty. I

  3. Did you arbitrarily shuffle the founding numbers 1-11 so they don’t correspond necessarily with those from the Milestone Two Ltd?

    I understand you are uninterested in ad hominem attacks and shuffling the sequence could prevent that – am just personally trying t sort though this.

    When I read the other day the “bios” of eleven I thought how wonderful delusion and the ability to rewrite history has always been.


  4. CommunicatorIC

    I have been trying to keep track of developments concerning the new Independent Scientology not-for-profit membership community, Milestone Two Ltd., in two threads on ESMB and in two threads on WWP. Included is some information (i.e., corporate registration documents) not set forth on the iScientology Blog. People here may find these threads to be informative.

    ESMB: Independent Scientology Not-For-Profit Membership Community Open in 7 Days (or less)!!

    ESMB: Justice Committee, Constitution & Membership of IS Not-For-Profit Membership Org

    WWP: Independent Scientology Not-For-Profit Membership Community Open in 7 Days (or less)!

    WWP: Justice Committee, Constitution and Membership Levels of IS Not-For-Profit Membership Community

    I will also note that I participated in a thread on the iScientology Blog in which Steve Hall rejected the use of the word “blog.” To get the full, unredacted record of that exchange, see either:


  5. I will not be part of any organized ideology or religion. Ever again.
    Never mind one with A to J checks, justice actions and a superior elite Tier 2 senior to Tier one.
    I exited the *Church* to get away from all this.
    Thanks for explaining why I have made this important everlasting decision.

  6. Jesus Christ. As a former member of the cult of Scientology for 42 years, I clearly see that this gang has not fully extricated themselves from the blinders that the one creates to protect their said gains or present and future financial gain. If any person was in need of a quick review of the FPRD, I’d say you have a few candidates here! I personally am tracking with ALL your most recent posts!

    The video you linked to yesterday was wonderful and what I found particularly uplifting was the bond and incredible ARC between you and your wife. She is special and so are you. Please know that whatever road you choose to “move up a little higher” is OK by me and I’m sure many others. Your blog has helped me and I thank you from the bottom of my heart. It gave me a stable datum when all my former dreams were evaporating at the speed of light. This is not now the case. Actually, far from it. I have recently (last six months) received some wonderful help and am realigning all, re-evaluating all and recreating my future.

    As a matter of fact, I told my counselor/auditor a week ago, I no longer consider myself a scientologist. Being the wonderful listener that he is, he duplicated me perfectly and understood. In a later conversation, he said the same thing!

    It’s been three years now since I’ve been out and every day I “decompress” a little more.

  7. Old Secretary

    At the end of the day, it wont be about the church, Milestone two, or anything else except how we handle ourselves, treat others, learn and grow from our experiences. A spiritual progression and journey we co-create. Institutions, groups, persons and situations in our lives all exist for various reasons having to do with our own moving up a little higher, or not.
    I think Marty has outgrown a lot of the trappings and teachings that have been in his sphere for the last 40 years. They served their purpose. I had seen him here gratefully acknowledge his teacher(s) and move on. That in itself was a test.

  8. Marty wrote:

    “Attempted to out a comment poster (by posting the person’s name) on my blog with whom he disagreed. When I disallowed the post as a spiteful and personal attack on a person he had received a tremendous amount of money from to help – far more than I have ever received for services from anyone – he accused me of being in league with and funded by his client. Neither charge was true. He then plied me with a barrage of minister-client privileged ‘facts’ about the character of the family of his client in an effort to enlist me to vilify them with him.”

    Wow. How’s that for domination? I don’t suppose he mentioned anything about himself, his illegal activities, blowing P.C.’s off the bridge, squirrel activities, lying, falsifying work sheets, false reporting, defrauding, which he knows were video taped and photographed and evidenced in all of his correspondence? That is really dabbling in injustice. And that always recoils. If you ever feel in your nature to forward these, it is only further evidence of the fraud I have already documented. Fraud is illegal, among other things. Like tax evasion, and corruption of minors (he was supposed to be tutoring and gave sex education classes to), and tortured for hours with verbal abuse. All on video that got him busted with a Nanny Cam.
    Then he merrily proceeded to chant Hubbard scripture on your blog. As “Mr. K.S.W.”. While combing your blog and friends, for income sources resources and lovers.

    LRH gives an answer in PAB 13 ON HUMAN BEHAVIOR, written in 1953.
    It is a briefing to auditors on the importance of knowing the most aberrated and most aberrative types of personality.
    In this PAB, LRH says:
    What we will call the aberrative personality does the following things:
    1. Everything bad that happened to the preclear was (a) ridiculous, (b) unimportant, (c) deserved.
    2. Everything the preclear and others did to the aberrative person was (a) very important, (b) very bad, (c) irremediable.
    3. Those things which the preclear could do (a) were without real value, (b) were done better by the aberrative personality or by others.
    4. Sexual restraint or perversion.
    5. Inhibition of eating.

    Mr. Looney Tunes. Who came here begging because he was homeless (used the money to handle legal flaps though which I have recently discovered) Then threatened to sue my children (his clients) when he found out he was filmed and busted for abuses. He said his “right to privacy was violated”.

    Mr. Looney Tunes.

    Profile of the Sociopath

    This website summarizes some of the common features of descriptions of the behavior of sociopaths.

    Glibness and Superficial Charm

    Manipulative and Conning
    They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

    Grandiose Sense of Self
    Feels entitled to certain things as “their right.”

    Pathological Lying
    Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

    Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
    A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

    Shallow Emotions
    When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

    Incapacity for Love

    Need for Stimulation
    Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

    Callousness/Lack of Empathy
    Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others’ feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

    Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
    Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

    Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
    Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet “gets by” by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

    Not concerned about wrecking others’ lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

    Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
    Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

    Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
    Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

    Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
    Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

    Marty, If you had not recommended the book, I would have gone MAD!

    I just see it as spiritual retardation now.

  9. Hey, Marty, one thing I have noticed in life is that those who cheat a little, and get away with it, start to cheat bigger and bigger and bigger. I think this is how the IRS detects fraud–they just let the people get away with tax lies until it they think they’re invulnerable and really start dipping in the till. That is exactly what is happening with the people who start with a bit of a “we’re better than you” attitude, and get away with it, and end up being as delusional as a group can be–nutty, in fact.

  10. martyrathbun09

    I think you are onto something there.

  11. Chris Johnson

    On the bright side, this new group will give radical Scientology something organized and tangible to fight against. They need enemies in order to keep their racket going, and this one is tailor made for rallying their zealots.

    And even better for the new group- They can immediately dive right into the “we’re being persecuted” bunker mentality that they learned in radical Scn, because they will indeed by targeted, and probably annihilated for that matter.

    It’s been fun following a religious movement playing out the drama of it’s formative years in slow-motion right in before my eyes. So many great twists and turns in the plot, like this one. I can’t even imagine what it’ll be like when DM finally goes away and all the real estate and other assets come up for grabs. Now that’s going to be a show!

    My observation is that Marty is one of the few “big names” who actually has his head screwed on straight. He’s following his own path and consistently appears to do the right thing. For me anyway, he’s been an inspiration.

  12. Let’s stop all fighting among ourselves. We were all promised we could use our abilities to audit. We were all lied to. Most have been attacked by the CO$. Get on with your lives, making the world a better place for you and yours.

  13. “What prompted me to eschew the “Scientologist” label was the conduct of those we paved the way for while we were withstanding the very best shots Scientology Inc. could and did take at us.

    I hold no malice for any particular individuals.”

    Although I don’t deliver, nor play punches with the COS, we’re on somewhat parallel paths. I definitely disagree with SCN authoritarianism. If this is SCN group-wise, I want nothing to do with it. I give myself the right to still like tech, because I can 😀

  14. *I’ve no idea about milestone 2 –I briefly saw that it exists, or going to exist. Nevertheless, I have my own experiences.

  15. What Karen said. Me, too.

  16. Chris – I don’t think that RCS is going to go after these Milestone Two folks to any great extent. Why? Because they are simply, sadly, a bunch of deluded nut jobs. I know a few of them and if their followers knew there true statistics when they were in the church and then out having such “wildly” successful lives or were able to see where they live … they would faint.

    I feel badly for those who comment again and again on their blog – praising them over and over. Those people want to reexperience earlier happier days for themselves when they were enjoying their Scientology experience and they think these folks can recreate that –

    Ain’t ever gonna happen.

    Our best bets are to take for ourselves from LRHs work, what worked for us and move on.

    Decompress and enjoy your life. It’s the only one you’ll have …

    Until your next one 🙂

  17. Well done, Marty. I have pretty good idea of who most of the 11 are. I never wanted to read any of their posts and didn’t for years. I felt they were “nuts”. Someone mentioned to me a few days ago some comments people made on your blog. I predicted that you would soon stop wasting your time and energy on such people and move on. Its another step away from the insanity generated by Scientology Inc and its fall out. You are a freer man. Enjoy.

  18. Always love what Just Me says – short and sweet …

    What Karen says – me too!

  19. This entire affair profoundly saddens me – well past tears. 😦

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist

  20. martyrathbun09

    Mat, If anyone can predict me, you are probably the most likely to. We go way back.

  21. Reading about M2 the other day was disconcerting for me, at best. What, we are going to be policed now by an Indie authority? No thanks, not interested and I see no need. If someone needs an ethics handling there are plenty of folk in the Indie or FZ field who could help. Standard LRH training and auditing is already available and becoming more so without a governing body. Christ most of us are just barely out of that madness.

    Have fun M2, but I’ll take my business elsewhere.

    ps: I was starting to get a little keyed-in about all this, more authority, more stops, more requirements…. but you all keyed me right back out… lol. 🙂

  22. Chris Johnson

    Wait, doesn’t radical Scn, quite literally, have a religious obligation to go after this new group?

    And if not for a religious obligation, I’d think that they’d have to go after them for reason of protecting their own service & trademarks. Thirdly, I’d think they’d have to go after them because it would be so darn easy to destroy the group and then declare a big win (“We shattered the squirrels and their suppression!”) to their core zealots. But what do I know?

    Thanks for kind words! 🙂

  23. Whew! I wasn’t going to get personal, but I am glad someone said it. The ones I have known have come to me for help which I gave, as they associated themselves as working for Marty or working with Marty.

    They actually USED him for income cycles. One was homeless the other about to be homeless. Both I GENEROUSLY assisted.

    Both “K.S.W.” except obviously not interested in using and applying the ethics conditions. Both lied and gave me false reports. This is not from when they were on staff. This is RECENTLY. I helped them both out of the hole and one turned around and threatened and sue me and my kids!

    The people reading that blog do not have ANY clue what is going on with these people in REAL LIFE right now! If they can’t help themselves unless through deception, how are they supposed to be helping others?

    Now, I DO know some of the people applauding them. And most of those people are IN GOOD shape.

    They don’t realize they are in better condition than the people organizing this group!

    You are right, they don’t KNOW and they can not SEE what a person’s statistics and conditions are over the Internet. And you are right, they WOULD FAINT!

  24. “On the bright side, this new group will give radical Scientology something organized and tangible to fight against.”

    I think radical Scientology has organized well enough to be using the new group to fight against Marty.


  25. One of the things that is most identifiable about a “true believer” of any religion is their unshakable certainty that they not only know what is right and wrong, but that they know the answers to everything.

    Fundamentalist Scientologists are no different from Fundamentalist Christians. Follow the path THEY are certain is the ONE TRUE PATH or be damned. Sadly, the Fundamentalist Scientologist announces “out ethics” and “off Sourceness” just like the Fundamentalist Christian declares anyone who doesnt toe their rigid line to be a heretic and possessed by Satan.

    Fundamentalist Scientologists are a product of the inculcation that they KNOW the only way. It gives them an arrogance and imagined superiority that is maddening in its illogic. There is no reasoning with such people as they KNOW.

    To criticize, attack, vilify you for daring to question only harkens back to the with hunts of yore and imprisoning Galileo for his radical thoughts that the church believed challenged their authority. History will judge who is smart and enlightened.

    To be so desperate to “save” others by controlling them and ensuring they comply to THEIR expectations of good and bad and right and wrong is a hallmark of the delusory “true believer.”

    I know what it is like, it was how I was raised.

    Like-minded people working together with a common purpose is a good thing. Seeking to create their own version of Fundamentalist Scientology is a doomed endeavor.

    Starting out by attacking the most important Opinion Leader moves them from fundamentalists into the realm of suicide bombers. Not too smart — but absolutely convinced they are 1000% right and all the non-believers will realize the error of their ways if they just keep blowing themselves up.


  26. What Y’all say – me too!

  27. Laughter! On the comical side. DM and his massacres couldn’t get people to jump off the “Scientology” ship faster than the copy group has!

  28. CommunicatorIC

    It appears Milestone Two Ltd. is an Australian Company.

    Australian Securities & Investment Commission Search

    Use “Search company and other registers”

    ACN: 163 661 238
    ABN: 35 163 661 238
    Registration date: 9/05/2013
    Next review date: 9/05/2014

    Status: Registered
    Type: Australian Public Company, Limited By Guarantee
    Locality of registered office: Griffith ACT 2603
    Regulator: Australian Securities & Investments Commission”

    “ABN details
    Entity name: MILESTONE TWO LTD
    ABN status: Active from 09 May 2013
    Entity type: Other Incorporated Entity
    Goods & Services Tax (GST): Not currently registered for GST
    Main business location: NSW 2620
    ASIC registration – ACN or ARBN 163 661 238 View record on the ASIC website
    Deductible gift recipient status Not entitled to receive tax deductible gifts”

  29. martyrathbun09

    They already effectively own it.

  30. My respect for you grows daily, from your words in your books, blog and the video you posted. Thank your for the time you have spent in communicating.

  31. I’m not part of or interested in that activity. I didn’t even know about it until now. If Independent Scientology is going in that direction, I’m pretty sure I’m not going with it.

    The support, love and care that I’ve received from Marty & Mosey Rathbun on a personal level, and the same that I have witnessed them give to others selflessly can never be erased from my mind.

    I am living my life. I have two children to raise, and a philanthropic position in my community and chosen field where I am helping people in a way that is important to me and that I am passionate about.

    Life is to be lived.

    I do not believe that Scientology is more important than living your life.

    Marty, once things settle down over here I’m going to read your Memoirs book cover to cover and the next one too. I want you to know that I think you are providing a real service by sharing information about LRH and the church that needs to be known. Most of us swallowed the ideas that he was perfect, infallible and never had the freedom to evaluate for ourselves. We justified the outpoints with “greatest good” and pointed to the wins and gains, while ignoring the rest. I had many gains from Scientology and I appreciate LRH for those. But I also had missing and wrong data. I am able to see the outpoints for what they are, without explaining them away now. Losing my family due to Scientology policy being at the top of my list. Since leaving I have been able to think for myself so much clearer. Understanding more of what really happened changes the picture. Realizing it wasn’t a rosy perfect scene actually made me feel so much better. It makes WAY more sense, and actually brought me some relief and peace regarding the subject all together.

    I appreciate what you do, have gone through and give.

  32. Yo Marty, I was always taught/told that one leads by example no matter what and you my friend have done that and more. You have contributed more to the freedoms of others than any other person I know. In fact, you have helped those who I personally would have had nothing to do with! I watched, and formed my own opinions and saw this happening with the players involved. I wanted nothing to do with it! The world is full of people who want to steal the joy of others! You have always been there for me and I will always be there/here for you!!

  33. “Exposing Squirrels” who has been into mocking up the hate sites on Marty and other auditors,spaming email boxes with degrades and false reports and slander on auditors, is also registered under an I.D. protect in Australia! Surprise Surprise!

    Registration Service Provided By: LAUNCHPAD.COM, INC.


    Registration Date: 19-Mar-2013
    Expiration Date: 19-Mar-2014

    Note: This Domain Name is currently Locked.
    This feature is provided to protect against fraudulent domain name hijacking, as in this
    status the domain name cannot be transferred or modified. The owner of the Domain Name can
    change the status from within his control panel or approach his service provider for the

    Name Servers:

    Registrant Contact Details:
    Domain Admin (
    ID#10760, PO Box 16
    Note – Visit to contact the domain owner/operator
    Nobby Beach
    Queensland,QLD 4218
    Tel. +45.36946676

    Administrative Contact Details:
    Domain Admin (
    ID#10760, PO Box 16
    Note – Visit to contact the domain owner/operator
    Nobby Beach
    Queensland,QLD 4218
    Tel. +45.36946676

    Technical Contact Details:
    Domain Admin (
    ID#10760, PO Box 16
    Note – Visit to contact the domain owner/operator
    Nobby Beach
    Queensland,QLD 4218
    Tel. +45.36946676

    Billing Contact Details:
    Domain Admin (
    ID#10760, PO Box 16
    Note – Visit to contact the domain owner/operator
    Nobby Beach
    Queensland,QLD 4218
    Tel. +45.36946676

  34. David Kramer

    I haven’t posted in a long time. and i think I need to say something to this.
    I personally wouldn’t follow anybody into any new Scientology organization. I have no need of any Scientology leaders.

    I personally have experienced your’s and Monique’s hospitality and assistance and can appreciate the fact that you decided not to be a target for the church even though you took the brunt of the attacks leaving the rest of the community safe. I’m glad to see that you got in out of the rain.

    How will the 11 wise men fare? Time will tell. I fear they won’t be as resilient.

    David K.

  35. Marty, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him think (well, that’s how I remember it). And I’ve observed before that Sea Org staff who were offloaded against their will seem much more likely to remain enmeshed in KSW than Sea Org staff who escaped on their own determinism.

    Without naming names, can you tell us approximately how many of the eleven were offloaded from the Sea Org?

  36. This is where I stand:

    I like Marty and Mosey and appreciate everything they have done to free people from the cult.

    I think people have different takes on Scientology and how it should be practiced. I think some will gravitate towards certain people, some to others.

    I think in the long run the stats will tell the tale about whether or not anyone practicing Scientology or Scientology based services are creating good products or not.

    I think whether or not people practicing outside of the cult agree with others who are practicing outside of the cult is irrelevant to some degree.

    There will be a menu of practitioners outside of the cult. For example, Freezone, Marty, Trey , Pierre, Les and Anita, etc, etc,. All of these people may have differing ideas about what was/is good or bad with Scientology. Therefore they will all practice it in a different fashion. With free communication outside of the cult, I’m sure we will hear about any VGI’s/bi’s.

    This situation seems like a harmonic of the Reformation of the Christian Church. In the Christian Church there are now several versions of Protestant Churches that don’t all agree with each other.

    I think it would be wise for all concerned to not get too hostile and or invalidative with others with differing ideas. I think tolerance is the key. It’s fine if you don’t like what someone else is doing, but getting real nasty and public about it is probably in bad taste.

    I think it was good the way Marty handled it in his post. He gave specifics and helped to as-is what had been festering for awhile now, without getting nasty.

    I would say that LRH had some good ideas in regards to justice. I haven’t seen many conducted with any real sanity within the cult. I think an argument could be made to have a justice cycle where all parties concerned could speak their peace and results given. I think it can be successful and has been successful many time having someone agreed on by both parties acting as referee to help resolve the situation. This has been done outside of the cult in the public arena many times.

    I too, no longer use the title of “Scientologist” for myself. I don’t like labeling myself . As I have said in past comments, I like auditing and am glad there are people who want to continue practicing it. I think each person who wants to get auditing will have to research and find the person who espouses the ideas and principals that they are interested in.

    I also think it is fair to say that many people would not be out of the jaws of the cult without Steve Hall, Marty, Mike Rinder, Mat and Amy, Karen D, Jeff Hawkins,…etc… All have been very out spoken.

    I think we all need each other to some degree or another. Some have skill sets that others may not have. I think one of the points of Scientology that I likes was the granting of beingness. Let us all try to apply that a bit more and keep some degree of unity against the madman who is mismanage.

  37. Thanks for saying this Karen. I have felt like I’ve had a withhold the whole time because I felt the same way. I love the tech but the rest seems like just another trap.

  38. CommunicatorIC

    Unfortunate typo, or more accurately, brain fart. In the last paragraph, that should obviously be: “I will also note that I participated in a thread on the iScientology Blog in which Steve Hall rejected the use of the word ‘wog.'” [Not “blog.”]

    I objected to the use of the word “wog” on the iScientology Blog, and Steve Hall agreed and deleted the word from the comment to which I had objected.

  39. Comm IC, you meant “wog”, not “blog”.

  40. Just want to ask – is it OK with everyone here that I choose not to dispute LRH tech, and have found very little if anything that I disagree with in practice or intent, and simply accept Scientology for the stunning breakthrough in the entire history of philosophy, as well as equally stunning amplifications of Freud’s seminal work to unravel the mess and complexity of what is now known as the reactive mind? Is it OK for me to not take sides and “get political” and not choose a side to cheer for? Is it OK for me to personally find the good to validate in another, even if two people are at war with each other?

  41. I have been absent reading the blog for some time and when I stopped in to see what was happening found that there seemed to be a disturbance in the force. I had not the time nor inclination to follow through with what it was and now feel that I have been brought up to date on the subject.

    My personal preference is and always will be a free market of Scientology. The best that anyone can do is to get out there and apply the tech any way they can. Glad to hear that you’re open for business again!

  42. martyrathbun09

    What is with the war obsession? Did you not read the post? The war is over.

  43. Marty:

    I have represented since before the inception of this blog that my purpose is to help folk graduate from this type of madness (reference: Welcome page). After all we’ve experienced in the past four years, that purpose is stronger than ever.


    The only way the good part of scn will ever accomplish the good it can do, is for intelligent people to apply the data and principles of : “How to study scientology”, and then build a better bridge. This has to be best done in the person’s own words, and call it something different. The name Scientology has way too much of an overwhelming stench on it.

    The other day I was standing in line at the bank and began talking to an elderly lady who was quite high toned, very talkative, and engaging.
    We done our bank business and happened to be walking out of the bank at the same time. She continued to engage and inquire into my life with zeal.
    We briefly mentioned each others troubled past.
    We were both on foot and both going in the same direction to do different things. She was going to a grocery store and I was going to another bank in the next block. We walked together about 7 or 8 min. We introduced each other and she said her name was Vera and she was a “sister”. Ok, I got that she was a Catholic nun. I would say a fine example of one. The conversation quickly got into our personal lives and into the past. Her questions were quite digging. We soon had to part ways to go and do our other business. So I said; what I have to say cannot be said in a few minutes of conversation, so I suggested that we do our business and meet at MacDonalds for coffee in about 25 min. . It was in the same block as we were. We did. When were seated at MacDonalds I was going to tell her about my troubled past , as that is what she wanted to hear. I said I was severely abused.

    Then I said have you heard about scientology? She was a bit irked at that word and taken aback, but held her composure, with strain. I said there is good and bad scientology. She did not hear that. She said she is a therapist and knows all about scientology and did not want to talk about scn, and if I did she would have to leave. I said there are different kinds of scn. She said are you a member of the new church here in town? I said no. I know it is a criminal organization. And I have nothing to do with it. She did not hear that either. I continued to try and explain. I said there is different kinds of scn. By this time she was getting very riled up and said that if I continued she would have to leave. She said I do not want to hear anything about scn, if it helped you that is good, but I am sorry, I will have to leave, if you continue to talk about scn. By this time I was getting a bit worked up too, and said well.. go.

    She got up and left.

    That was a terrible situation.

    There is no hope for anything that has a scn name on it.

    The majority of the world could be helped with auditing and other tech, where I know of nothing else that could do what scn can for case and trauma.

    But it will never happen under the name scn or anything that will indicate that it is derived from scn.

    The new bridges have to include the bible and other supporting data of comparable magnitude, to make the bridge stronger and more palatable and a much higher standard of ethics. Or incorporate the most useful parts of scn into the teachings and principles of the bible. Or something along those lines, to make it palatable and respectful to reach the number of people that desperately need the help.


  44. Murray Pearlman

    Marty I haven’t written on your blog for ages, but have enjoyed your realizations. When we came out on your blog as an Independent, I didn’t know where this would lead . It is truly amazing to me that after being out for awhile that people don’t realize Hubbard created a Cult and he new exactly what he was doing. Things like KSW, KRs, his ethics principles, the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics I could go on and on, were only designed to create a cult. So I am coming out in a different way on your blog. This is to say I and my family (I think I can speak for them all) do not consider ourselves Scientologists Independent or otherwise in any way shape or form. We have had to many realizations about Scientology and Hubbard. I am not going to belabor the point, I guess I could write a book on de-cultifying, but your doing a much better job than I could ever do. You and Mosey have been dealing with complete and utter insanity and have handled it quite well. We will continue to enjoy what you have to say.

  45. +1

    Catching up on my reading the other day I finally read some of the M2 posts. I thought “no thanks, eff you” and deleted my bookmark.

  46. Lol.
    Mike I used the Reformation analogy in my post down below. But your description of the fundamentalist is hilarious and then the suicide bomber…great comment. 🙂

  47. Oracle, while it might mean something that the WHOIS query on that domain name traces to Australia, it might mean nothing. I am in the US, but have numerous domain names that trace to England, simply because that is where my current “domain name registrar” vendor is located.

  48. Hello again. Yes, the way out is not the way back in. The way out is the way out. We are all in transition. We are all passing through.

  49. martyrathbun09

    Hi Marta. An upward trajectory is kinda nice too.

  50. Your humble servant


    Thanks as always for your thoughts and your writings. I am saddened by your decision not to call yourself an independent Scientologist any more, but I can certainly understand it after what said you have experienced. I am very dismayed to have learned that anyone would self-righteously attack you on the pretense that they were better “Scientologists” than you were. I would have expected better than that from anyone who professed to be a “Scientologist.” To me the word only means someone who has studied, admired and used Ron’s philosophy and approaches to personal betterment such as are expressed in the Auditor’s Code (at least the earlier ones), and as are found in his lectures and writings. I think of the word as an important, unifying legacy from Ron and Mary Sue, and that it was a great victory to liberate the word from the pretended sole ownership of the official church of corporate Scientology. So I am sorry that you now feel that you can no longer describe yourself by using the term, but, again, I can understand.

    The attacks that you have related were certainly arrogant, extreme, duplicitous, and hateful, and it seems that you have experienced quite a bit of betrayal by people to whom you have offered help as well. Perhaps this is indeed typical of at least a few of the people who call themselves independent Scientologists today, although I haven’t personally experienced it. Sad, if true. I think that such attitudes are very contrary to Ron’s discussions and philosophizing on the subject. Although some of the policy letters might suggest or state otherwise (and I believe even these were generally written mainly for organizations rather than for application by the Scientology general public), I don’t think that Ron ever meant for Scientologists to be rude, arrogant, self-important, or hateful. Such attitudes do seem very Miscavige-esk.

    Just to touch upon one small point, personally I have not been convinced that Ron did not make notes somewhere about the existence of higher OT levels, since he seemed to be saying that he did. I simply have no knowledge about it. However, I would never invalidate you or make negative, disparaging, accusatory remarks about you because you expressed disagreement on that subject. These people from Milestone Two seem like nut jobs to me from what you have quoted of them. (I had not even heard of them until you brought it up).

    Nor do I think that this is the time for a bunch of would-be Scientology aspirants to be trying to form up a new organization, complete with the errors and authoritarianism that the present official organization has manifested, claiming to now be the be-all and end-all of Scientology. These people will not be going anywhere of note with the viewpoints that they apparently have.

    Best wishes for your continued work, and thank you for expressing your views.

  51. Hi. If upward is your choice, yes. Upward may be a perspective. A judgement. Perhaps it is not broken after all. Perhaps is just is.

  52. “Life is to be lived.”

    “I do not believe that Scientology is more important than living your life.”

    You can frame that one, Christie.

  53. Chris Johnson

    Oh right, of course!

    I feel a bit sheepish that I didn’t see it before, but now I do. I think you are saying that radical Scn already has the new group in the position of being “Manchurian Candidates” and have invisibly steered them into harassing enemies such as Marty, the actual biggest-fish target. Therefore, radical Scn won’t obliterate this new group as long as they remain blind but useful idiots. So ruthlessly diabolical!

    One of the fascinating things about this epic is that the radical Scn’s are such formidable adversaries. It can be quite challenging to understand the tactics involved, but gents like you have greatly helped me understand what’s really going on. Many thanks for sharing your deep insight!

  54. LRH (and DM) have tears of joy in their eyes. So many SP’s all gathered in one spot, hissing and foaming at the mouth. The target is to handle the 4th dynamic now – no more time for individuals. Ideal orgs are props for the CofS Washington lobbyists to get our insane nations laws changed in regards to drugs, education, justice and war. How full are the Catholic Churchs etc etc – the WOG’s (Worldly Oriented Gentlemen) only see and understand the Church’s buildings and the CofS’s mailing lists. All they see is the Church’s power and voter influence. DM is handling the 4th, any fool can see that.

  55. Oh boy. Marty I do not envy your position.

    What a fucking insanity Scientology is.

    These people never got the memo that Religion is an implant?

    Ok. Here we go, very slowly…..
    You actually ARE source less, formless, unmoving and original.

    Why is that so difficult to understand?

  56. Marty, one of your best posts ever in my opinion is Scientology And Saving The World.

    As I see it the auditing works because it is native to a being. It is the most static part of LRH’s work. Policy; however, was written to handle the then current environment…but the environment always changes. I am therefore skeptical of any rigid structure, especially one based on policy designed to handle a completely different environment than the one that currently exists…some of which, by the way, is too closely positioned with the current RCS, like HANDLING THE PUBLIC INDIVIDUAL. Some of it just has to change.

    Navigating through new territory takes more than application. It takes Leadership. Although goals and vision can generally be agreed upon, execution is neither democratic nor tyrannical. It also does not assume that the leaders have any more ability than the mail room attendant, rather it recognizes and develops talent and provides a stage for unrestricted creative expression in pursuit of the vision. Holding structure, making assumptions about the abilities of other’s, or recognizing an “inner sanctum” is not OT. OT is establishing an environment that is so creative and aesthetic that it would drive any suppressive of a cliff…no A-J required.

    I truly hope any movement to standardly deliver LRH’s life changing technology outside the Church is successful and this is true of MS2 as well. If it is successful, I just don’t think it will look like it does today.


  57. Gayle Smith aka TroubleShooter

    Amen sista!

  58. Precisely!

    This new group IS radical Scientology (as Marty said above – “they effectively own it”)

  59. Warren Marston

    Good news, guys! I’ve just gotten off the phone with Cesar Milan, The Dog Whisperer, and he’s agreed to take over leadership of Scientology — the whole thing, including the Church, the Ron’s Orgs, the Freezone, the Indies, the Mongiello’s, Marty and fans, Save Scientology, Milestone 2, and everyone else. If anyone can get this pack calmed down and going for a walk together, it’s Cesar!

  60. Gayle Smith aka TroubleShooter

    My way up has been by going out. I won’t go in to the mindset, control or systemic political movement with anyone on the subject of Scn. It’s an amazing bit of philosophy that I will use. It is NOT my religion. It’s a philosophy and that has no walls, no judge, no jury. Products talk bullshit walks. I’m also not going to let my affinity for people be divided. I’m not going to play the game of chose a side as that is the very fundamental error made in the church was to make people take a side whether they knew it until they hit OT VII or not. Good on you Marty for doing what you feel is right and good on the 11 who I believe are motivated by good purposes. What comes of their work remains to be seen and many of them I hold in high regard as people. I won’t get in to an us/them which is my official statement and not to be construed as me saying anything but what I just said. Everyone needs to follow their hearts and use their heads and hope that it’s meaningful and fulfilling in doing so.

  61. England does not = Australia. England mirrors U.S. with many situations. But Australia? That is just a l i t t l e bit South wouldn’t you say Bob? South of INDONESIA, NOT exactly connected by the
    Triborough bridge there buddy!

    Laughter! Anyway, I know who “Squirrel Exposer” is.

    And I know when certains arrived and were in Australia. And his bank statements were mailed here, where he was staying until I gave him money to go buy a trailer to live in, which the local D.A. picked up and took back to the bank to obtain a full background check after obtaining a social security number. As I was defrauded in a few different ways, and there was criminal activity connected to my children. He also has not filed tax returns on the income.

    I was not the only person to get screwed over by him that summer, not by a LONG SHOT. He enturbulated Independents and blew people out of the Independent Movement as he lost use for them.

    How do these sociopaths float around on the backs of religious people?

    Is isn’t even ABOUT Scientology. It is about their nature and affinity scamming.

    Grandiose Sense of Self
    Feels entitled to certain things as “their right.”

    Pathological Lying
    Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

    Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
    A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

    Shallow Emotions
    When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

    Incapacity for Love

    Need for Stimulation
    Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

    Callousness/Lack of Empathy
    Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others’ feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

    Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
    Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

    Not concerned about wrecking others’ lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

    Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
    Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

    Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
    Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

    These kind of people are no more a Scientologist or involved with self improvement or sincerely helping others than my wiener dog. It’s all about the scam, the hustle, the retirement plan. Bernie Madoff’s only professional skills before taking people’s money were being a life guard and installing sprinkler systems, did you know that?

    Do you suppose Bernie Madoff went to Church and made friends for self improvement?

  62. deElizabethan

    In browsing, since I couldn’t read it all in depth, my conclusion is, it’s crazy isn’t it?

  63. CommunicatorIC

    LIVE! Milestone Two! Independent Scientology Membership Community! $30 per year!

  64. Gerhard Waterkamp

    Mike, well said.

  65. Dear Marty,
    Entertaining documentary on the UK’s Channel Four! I am glad you sought solace elsewhere for your own sake. Now for your own life back again. Good luck, buy a big dog and carry a big stick! Please do check out THE BOOK OF URANTIA (US.1955) and THE BOOK OF AL DAOUD (UK 1923) materiel for some new insights. Reading both tomes seemed to me like doing an OT 25 theory course! You and yours are welcome anytime at our house(s). UK and Australia. It would be nice to hear from Mike R. We spent time together when were kids.

  66. Marty wrote:

    Attempted to out a comment poster (by posting the person’s name) on my blog with whom he disagreed. When I disallowed the post as a spiteful and personal attack on a person he had received a tremendous amount of money from to help – far more than I have ever received for services from anyone – he accused me of being in league with and funded by his client.

    NOTE: “he accused me of being in league with and funded by his client.”

    If “he” has been spreading false reports around like this to people I should clear this up.

    I gave this guy 4X more to do some tutoring here and coaching some drills (So he could buy a trailor because he said he was homeless, which he did not buy) than I have ever sent to Marty in piddly donations from time to time. The times I have sent donations were usually when everyone else did too because Marty was fund raising to HELP SOME ONE ELSE.

    The other one, claiming to be working on a mission for you, got about the same amount in goods (a car) cash and other perks from me.

    I have NEVER been asked for money by Marty.

    I haven’t done anymore and probably a LOT less than anyone / everyone else here. I have given Marty NO WHERE near the cash I gave his two, “friends turned enemies” that are accusing HIM of being “funded”.

    This is a viscous false report. It is THEM, who came to ME for “FUNDING”. NOT Marty. It is THEM I FUNDED, NOT MARTY.

    If this false report has been handed to you or put on your lines realize you have been LIED to and MISLEAD.

  67. The Old Man told us in 1983 to FLOURISH and PROSPER. He was referring to individuals not just the organisation. He also predicted that the orgs would be the limiting factor to the spiritual growth. He told me personally in 1982 that we had to operate exterior to them if we were to ever find our feet and promote The Tech. Pat has a proper debrief to offer us.

  68. Marty, it’s sad to see a division opening between the founders of Milestone Two and the many people whose opinions are closer to yours . There are people whom I respect on both sides of that divide, although I’ve never met any of you face to face.
    I’d been troubled by similar doubts after reading the statements of the Eleven. One or two just seem to want to get back to where they were before Miscavige took over, almost as if they’ve been keeping their cherished Sea Org unifoms at the back of the wardrobe. Phrases like “standard application” and “groups that have used L.Ron Hubbard’s technology harmfully” can mean different things to different individuals.
    On the other hand, I was one of the many who urged Lana to form such a group. So I’ll take responsibility for it.
    I suggest that the existence of Milestone Two deserves our support, at least as Associate Members who give a few dollars and our names. Not because it’s the “ideal” 3D some have been waiting for, or because it will become and remain the one authentic bastion of standard tech. But because it is a terminal of comparable magnitude to the CofS, and two terminals are needed for charge to dissipate. It will fulfill this function, and then evolve into something else or disappear. No-one is going to be held in it by force, lies or blackmail. And that’s a big step forward from the old Church.
    IMHO, Milestone Two is simply a platform. What is put on that platform will depend on the members. Unless I’m mistaken, the Eleven are not pushing any particular line, but want to make it possible for members to initiate their own projects. So there is good reason to have as diverse a membership as possible. I’ll allow the macho Sea Org types to share the platform as equals, just as long as they grant the same courtesy to me, and all other persons of good will.


    Regarding this new “group” and its founding members, I am almost speechless. All I can say is: the worst of Scientology in = the worst of Scientology out. — sadder and more pathetic than the church of Miscavige.

  70. I am no joining anything until I see something the indicates and so for I haven’t seen it yet.

    I am also not taking sides.

  71. Hey There Mike! We knew each other from Adelaide in the 1960’s. You have a friend here. I am at university at the moment, but will head back to OZ in two years. Looking forwards to a chat sometime. I have moved on and achieved some interesting things. The Old Man knew only some of it. Ask Pat to give us a full debrief some day soon just to fill in some interesting blanks. Thanks Mate! (PS: A superior meter is available in the UK from Pemberthy).

  72. Dirk Niblick

    Respectfully, I will say this. I don’t really follow any other independent Scientology blogs (with the exception of Mike’s and Possibly Helpful Advice, which spend time reporting on current church news).

    I find these other indie blogs and forums almost universally hard to read because they have such a certainty in their tone.

    But the world is not so certain… or a better way of putting it is that we imperfect humans need to really work at understanding it. It is the height of arrogance to pretend one has all the answers and that one need not ask questions. And as you seem to have concluded, it seems clear to me that a “know-it-all” certainty is at the heart of what made Scientology a cult in the church. DM himself is an exemplar. He is 100% certain in himself, 100% sure he understands Scientology better than anyone else, and demands that everyone else be 100% certain as well. Better not be CI.

    Being 100% certain that LRH knew all, and that you have the right understanding of his perfect teachings, better than all those dumb SPs and DBs who don’t get it… well, you’re not so different from DM if that’s your attitude. It seems rampant in those who have supposedly escaped the church.

    But your blog is different. I sometimes disagree with your ideas, and I too have sometimes questioned how much you have come to grips with your past actions. However, I really appreciate how you ask questions and explore ideas… and you are increasingly doing this as time goes on. The blog has become more fascinating and thought-provoking over time.

    Keep up the explorations, questions, and thoughtful posts. They are greatly appreciated by many other seekers.

  73. Conversion by the sword.

    Two things come to mind: paradigms and evolution. I believe monolithic, controlling organisations are largely on their way out as a natural result of decentralisation and individual communication. Outdated solutions will be overtaken and replaced by new solutions, and if those with the outdated solutions don’t wake up to that fact, they will be replaced or greatly reduced by default. I find the concepts in Joel Arthur Barker’s book “Paradigms” quite applicable and worth reading.

    Also, I find increasing parallels in Kevin J. Anderson’s “Saga of Seven Suns”. A page turner, and the descriptions of the inflexible Hanseatic League and its puppets and violent leader compared to the independent Roamers with their individualism, clans and voted Speaker strangely familiar.

    I, for one, am truly grateful to Marty, Mosey (a truly amazing woman) and all who have really helped. Marty, your books helped me regain even an hint of interest in Scientology red tech as an honestly practiced subject. Your blog and people’s posts here continue to help me let go of the need for attack described in the post above, and learn about the fear in myself that it is rooted in. You also continue to point the way to possible answers to questions I have (such as one I’ve had for months, just how do I go about letting go?).

    I do not desire to be a member of an organisation shaped in the likeness of the ego, and do not ever again want to be part of organised religion. At present the idea abhors me. I am very interested in learning for myself (after 30+ years of growing up in Scientology but never being able to have it, no auditing, nada) if Scientology tech has merit and would help me, and am extremely interested in seeing its useful parts excavated in their simplicity and their value put into perspective with other tools.

    This, I think, we should remember: a tool is a tool. When we begin to defend it, it seems the tool has become the master.

  74. Gerhard Waterkamp

    Marty, thanks for adding some data to the gut feeling I got when reading the different “Milestone 2” announcements. My first thought was “Oh boy, a COS under new management.” At that point I did not even see the classifications of member levels or the A-J check on the menu. I sincerely believe (hope) some good people are misled and used and will hopefully take a better look at this. I just feel sorry for the delusional cheerleaders in some of the comments and discussion groups.
    But then I got some really good laughs out of your blog and my mood improved remarkably. Thanks for cheering me up with creations like “Squirrelbusters light”. This “Milestone 2” is so ridiculous that humor is the best way to go about it other than moving on.
    I am pretty sure I am not going to make a cornerstone donation to improve my membership status anytime soon.

  75. Concerned Citizen

    I took the time to read the blog article today.
    I have no idea who the 11 may be, I have no clue what the whole organizing thing is about and I have little data on what their views are. But based on the article here are 2 things I want to say
    Thank you Marty Rathbun for the work you did and the significant risk you took to make it safe for me, everyone reading this blog and the 11 and their followers to follow our own spiritual path in safety practicing Scientology freely and as we best benefit from it. With out you it would have been considerably harder.

    While I wish anyone who intends to further the advance of human kind and the betterment of conditions with scientology or otherwise the best I reserve the right to adhere to the following LRH idea.

    “WHAT IS TRUE FOR YOU is what you have observed yourself and when you lose that you have lost everything. What is personal integrity?
    Personal integrity is knowing what you know–
    What you know is what you know–
    And to have the courage to know and say what you have observed.
    And that is integrity.
    And there is no other integrity.
    Of course we can talk about honor, truth, all these things,
    These esoteric terms.
    But I think they’d all be covered very well
    If what we really observed was what we observed,
    That we took care to observe what we were observing,
    That we always observed to observe.
    And not necessarily maintaining a skeptical attitude,
    A critical attitude, or an open mind.
    But certainly maintaining sufficient personal integrity
    And sufficient personal belief and confidence in self
    And courage that we can observe what we observe
    And say what we have observed.
    Nothing in Dianetics and Scientology is true for you
    Unless you have observed it
    And it is true according to your observation.
    That is all.” L Ron Hubbard from the article Personal Integrity

    I read Marty’s book and I find it to be a fine example of personal integrity.
    Simple as that.

  76. Li'll bit of stuff

    The war is clearly NOT over for you Marty You have stooped to a new low Whats the matter did someone steal your thunder?


  77. Oh Marty! Do what thou wilt…

  78. Thank you Gail! From my auditor point of view, it’s sad to see all the BPC on the subject of OWs flying about. No wonder with all the horrible abusive sec checking that’s gone on. Let’s not project this on others and into the future, it’s just PTS phenomena. We were all attracted to truth and freedom, so just find a kind, skilled auditor and work on yourselves and others. Grant YOURSELVES beingness. BE the change.

  79. Excellent Tony! Ditto!

  80. Shockingly sad how people learn to hate in fanatic groups. The way to live is to live life WITH people and love, compassion, fellowship. If a group creates the opposite one knows for sure that it is the wrong way. That madness is not only in Scn Inc. or the next splinter group or the splinter of the splinter group etc., it’s all over the world in groups thinking they stand above other people and are seperate from them. The truth is that we are all bound together and if one denies this truth one creates such an conflict within himself that he starts to fight others and at the end even himself.
    It’s quite a learning process to live up to the real truth and stop to hate and fight and fear other people and be egoistic, arrogant, ignorant etc. But that is really the way to happyiness and freedom. We are all one family even if some of us don’t get it and behave like idiots – they still belong to our family. 😉

  81. Ditto!
    I couldn’t have said it better.

  82. OMG who is this person?

  83. Exactly. Doesn’t matter who is organising, you’re free to practice sans moi.

    Marty let it be known what my experience is: 18 years of Corporate Scn gradually increasing spiritual rape had left its stains while I prefer clean. You and I took up matters which mattered the most as far as I am concerned and look what happens – the well of self is replenished, I really don’t feel the need to add or subtract by yet joining again. For better or worse.

    You delivered.

  84. Me too Alaska…

  85. +1000000

  86. +1000000

  87. No doubt it will help churchies walk out a wee bit faster, knowing there’s now a low-carb Co$ in existence. I must admit I was quite excited when I first heard of it, but oh how my heart sunk reading the charter. I had hoped for something radical (no pun intended). A fresh, innovative approach to organised Scientology. Something fun. Something that could really appeal to young people. Something like Marty’s approach but simply on a larger scale. Something (gasp!) new?! But instead we have more rules and regulations encouraging conformity and group-think. Never criticise Hubbard. Never criticise the tech. Criticism = overts, “crimes”. Implications of more SP Declares and possibly even enforced Disconnection (it’s not clear). It seems like another “deadly serious activity”.

    Good luck to them though. I hope I’m wrong. They can’t blame people for being concerned. I imagine they will do pretty well servicing some of the more zealous ex-churchies, but it will be interesting to see how they’ll fair bringing in new people, especially a younger crowd.

  88. Totally agree Karen. I am all out.

  89. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    Dear Marty,

    Thank you. Yesterday I was a little bit dissapointed about getting no reaction to my comment and my asking for discussion about this subject.

    This morning I read your answer to it.Honestly, I’ d some little tears in my eyes, when I read it.

    You were able to express what I was sensing and wasn’t able to express in words or in a rational way. I just knew that the whole thing is the same old PR, just presented in in a more gentle way, but with the same purpose of getting people under thought control, with a democratic touch !

    It seems that you are the only Scientologist that I personnally know that is not Pring or if you PR ,it is 100% honest. My god this fucking Pr stuff is quite confusing. If somebody writes one day a honest analysis of it – would be very interesting – how this subject has been corrupted or perhaps it is a corruption itself and we should call it the “Art of honest Lying” (as the guy who pr’s really believes what he’s saying).

    Thanks for your answers to my questions and one day i’ll be at your doorsteps again !

  90. This entire affair profoundly saddens me – well past tears.
    This is exactly how I feel too. Just so sad.
    When I will recover, I will do all I can to help make things better.

  91. Few random thoughts on this intriguing post:

    The Channel 4 Docu makers earlier this week could have an interesting Part 2 to make!

    Personally quite surprised at some of names of the top 11. I have found decompressing is a far lengthier and trickier proposition than I originally thought. I decided last year to stop calling myself a Scientologist, and carefully avoid using cult lingo and phraseology. It’s been useful. I will only revisit auditing or training if/when I’m 100% certain I have shed all last remnants of cult think

    A- J check??? Levels of paid membership???Are you frikking kidding me? Oh dear. Here we go again…

    That phrase you used Marty a few posts back about “no need to hang around the campus” really resonates here.

    Thank God for my wonderful family. Most everything else is bullshit

    Your blog and books have done more than anything to move others a little higher. Half way through “Warrior” at the moment and it’s a revelation.

    Another case in point on the above – I mentioned last post I have had a full inbox since the Channel 4 documentary; one lady I helped just this morning originated after I recommended your first two books to her as follows:

    “Wow O wow, I am reading the what,s wrong with S, and I find it so so interesting!!! I was telling my husband about it and he said, yeah I can tell you really like it. Guess my face really lit up.
    I am remembering now some of the things I was taught all those years ago. Super duper info and it really makes total sense to me. Cheers for the info. Let me know what other stuff to learn.
    Very glad I watched the BBC thing or I would never have taken this opportunity to expand my spirituality and knowledge, in this venue anyway. What a buzz!!!
    Take care, Rita

    Sent from my iPad=”

    Lastly, of the 11, I only personally know 3, but I can say of all them, I love you all. I’m reminded a little of the Andy Hutton situation of a couple of years ago. To this day I don’t bear him any malice and would sit down for a coffee with him. It is just too bad he has chosen mental enslavement over freedom of thought and expression. One day, however long into the future, he will wake up.

  92. “I still hope one day they too can graduate from the cult mindset within which they are imprisoned.” I appreciate the optimism but I wonder …

    Once upon a time, there was a man who set out to discover truths. Somewhere along the line, he decided to share it with others. He attracted many like-minded. As he built his empire upon his findings, it became a shining beacon of light. Like moths to the flame, the pretentious got attracted to the source of his powers. He managed to weed them out for a while but as the empire grew the they managed to get in on the far perimeters of the empire at first. Then it was just a matter of time until they made it higher and higher in the structure until one not-so-pleasant day DM took over.


    I doubt they have any intention to graduate. This is where they can thrive. The perfect soil. An endless collection of writings of a man long passed. A tech up for the grabs. He is no longer here to ‘shout’ “THAT’S NOT WHAT I MEANT!” or “THAT’S NOT HOW YOU DO IT!” as he did through his policy letters. We can ‘shout’ in his name but it is not the same. For every word he can’t we must ‘shout’ a hundred or more but instead of targeting the offenders we must ‘shout’ to warn their pray.

    Marty you are doing and instilling a great deal of ‘shouting’ and to the right audience. You dare to think for yourself and encourage others to do the same. Keep up the good work.

    SC was supposed to get people to think for themselves. The pretentious managed to turn this around 180 degrees.

    (Just FYI, I used to post as A != A)

  93. Well, for some good news! The Christians are coming through!

    Christian group apologizes …………..

    “The church has waged the culture war, and it’s time to put the weapons down,”

    “While there has been so much good at Exodus, there has also been bad,” Chambers said at the conference. “We’ve hurt people.”

    “We want to see bridges built, we want peace to be at the forefront of anything we do in the future,” he said.

    How is that for owning up and taking a little responsibility? Admitting some truth.

  94. Marty, you didn’t want to lead a movement. You stated that. To the degree that one doesn’t want to put any administration in anything but just advise people, he becomes a counselor, an independent one in our case.

    Scientology is not going to move Independently just with independent counselors.

    Scientology is also and in a rather big way a 3rd dynamic (and a 4th if you care) activity.

    I have been here in Greece for the last 13 years. I was just a book 1 auditor and could give assists to people which I did. I didn’t do much book one. I didn’t feel I could. I invited twice auditors from abroad and we got some auditing. That was even well before you came out and started speaking openly on the Net about delivering services and not fearing the church. True you did it on newspapers, TV channels etc. You went Big. But we did do things before that. Maybe we didn’t go on TV channels of international broadcasting but auditing and training occurred before you came out.

    Still, and after you went big on the news about Independents (a term you made up and became popular like the Freezoners by Bill Robertson in the 80’s) still for me at least here in Greece, nothing much happened.

    Many facebook groups, many blogs, many significances, wins of auditors and PCs but for me here I wouldn’t see the light of anything. Just people scattered around the globe communicating on the net.

    Since I had the fortune to apply LRH’s Admin Tech as much as I knew in the dirty but cool basement of ASHO in the central files area and not in the lavish and luxurious but suppressive environment of Miscavige, I came to the conclusion that Admin is ok.

    organising can be ok, Marty. And if you didn’t want to do it, some people wanted to. because in the near future we are going to be experiencing things on this planet that are not going to be the best. Globalisation has started and the church is part of it. I don’t know how but you also said it DM is going to be the next Constantine. Religion is failing across the planet and a new religion is needed. I think DM is preparing that, creating a religious dictatorship based on the works of LRH.

    So, though I like to see you like you are bold, courageous and fearless, I have many times expressed my views here and was criticised as an almost radical. Radical for what? For wanting to have more organisation so, not just me, but my kids too and my friends can benefit of auditing like Mosey and your friends do?

    That I didn’t become an Auditor does not mean I didn’t train in my way. I became a more skilled administrator than many of the so called executives I think, you worked with. Because Athens is just one org here with no missions, nada. Just on little spot in the middle of Athens milking its few publics.

    Scientology is not that and is not what you have the notion to be.

    I wish you were down in the basement of ASHO so we could have a ball applying the 7 Div Org Board and getting the Captain down calling us squirrels.

    I wish you came in Copenhagen when CO CLO told me to read COB and the translations orders and I responded “you read LRH and the HCOBs” at which point he yanked me out of post and no TU staff did anything.

    Admin is not a bad thing. Scientology will only progress and results will be obtained when some order can come in. DM keeps order by force and utter power.

    I still admire you because you are honest and straightforward. And though you chose your own path of questioning things far beyond what’s needed on a practical level for people to be audited and trained on a global basis (many people saw you here as the potential leader of such a movement) I still find that you have done good by exposing DM and delivering many effective blows on him.

    I didn’t know about the 11 and your communications. But I think they want to wear another hat in life than you do. And thus the org board is wiser than all of us in that it can take in many hats and many good people. LRH through tech and admin managed to unite folks who would have killed each other otherwise if left alone, lol. Something which is happening now in front of our eyes. My opinion.

  95. Don’t think for a moment a “New Scientology” or a “New Golden Age Of Tech ll” can’t be sold. In this video (get ready to laugh) people were shown the SAME iphone they currently had, and told it was NEW iphone. Yes, they thought it was better!

  96. Roger Roland

    Whew! as somebody evicted from Scientology, after 20 years of study, for refusing to subscribe anymore to IAS and their nonsense. I felt large affinity for your endeavours for yourself with what you are achieving besides renewed hope for an opportunity to further my what had seemed for me a lost spiritual path. But this blog is a very heavy intake with lots of unknowns for me to handle.

    Are you able to recommend a more gently introduction for my guidance. Your efforts are admired and what I have discovered and the confidence to accept it that something is sick in the state of Denmark. best wishes Keith

  97. Marty,
    I don’t know who these 11 people are, nor do I care. What I do know is that they have no right to make judgements on you, this blog –which is YOUR blog, on how you apply or don’t apply the tech as you see fit, on your own spiritual path, or anything else you create. How arrogant! The last thing I want to see is another group who wants to evaluate, invalidate, toss around wrong indications, pretend to be ‘on source’, and further the very organizational attributes that many of us despise. If they are so righteous and so keen on acting like the church, why don’t they just go back in and deal with DM, or maybe lick his boots. Judging by their comments,these folks don’t have a clue to know what it is to be free and not to opterm.

  98. I love it. Corporate vs corporate lite vs Indies. As a fan of old time wrestling, I used to love the three way death match. As a non scientologist, Id just love to see the sheep leaving downtown Clearwater where I live.This is going to fun for me to watch.

  99. Tony, well stated and I agree that unity is good as long as it is free, open communication.

  100. Totally agree David, what is this obsession with needing leaders? Not only that, but they have “status” – Processing levels, Training levels, Posts Held. Apparently OTV is where the line in the sand is drawn.

    There is no indication that these Wise 11 will bring any more sanity to organized Scn than the church currently does. The key to successful application of Scn is NOT “better” organization or “fully applying KSW” or “not doing what RCS does”. They seem to be missing the point. Scn can have value on a personal level. Each individual has to find out for themselves the value of the work and make it their own (or not). They don’t need some organized body to regulate it, run it, enforce it or tell you want is standard and what is not.

    Also, the lack of granting of beingness is shocking, and gives you some insight as to how sane this operation will be.

  101. Good points, Dio, thanks for posting.

    Richard Kaminski

  102. Snoopy's Uncle

    It was always a wondering point, when I was meeting OTs, new ones and also the ones from 70/80s, the constant willingness to spot out-ethics in others (and call it as such). Which is good for you, in case you are spot-on, which, in many cases as far as I could see, was not the case. As any disputes based on blaming others are irresolvable, I will not try to side the OTs and neither their “victims”. But it always felt odd.

    Nevertheless, what was really amazing, was the fact that these things tend to prevail over the spirituality and spiritual benefit the technology could bring. As if serving others (both in admin and in counseling) was not a privilege one could be humbly proud of but position of authority and power. As if having a certificate was making one a more valuable person and giving you right to dominate. And you perhaps could name other such things you observed. Are these simply flaws of those who cause it? Or is there a wider and broader picture to consider? Is it the way the universe is and we are set up?

    Perhaps, there might be some similarity with having to use force to create space in which then you can try to materialize your utopic ideas, which is the way it works here with groups – you live in space where there is law, rights and reason in the middle yet on the edge of this space there is force, killing and ruthlessnes to keep the space from real and alleged enemies, and that somehow introduces the liability into any and all groups there have been and will be and corrupts them – the good doers cannot have their hands fully clean. Therefore many reasonable (not suppressively reasonable but having their wits together) have called for evolution and to avoid revolutions. Yes, “revolution” was first used in astronomy as to describe that any planet re-evolves i.e. comes back to its initial position on its orbit. Hence, any revolution means getting back to where it started. So “evolution” is left as a hope for us and we can put it there as an ideal (DM forgive unauthorized use of this word :)) while we don’t know if, in the end, we will not re-evolve. Getting stuck on force, authority and power simply means loosing one’s momentum to evolve. And so we can try to stick to the ideal while the universe is bringing us many reasons why we should better do othewise.

    The situation Marty describes is not an exception while not an absolute – also these “Saint 11” might be doing good things while doing what Marty criticizes. In the beginning I didn’t understand, why so many disagreements among Scientologists, among Independents, Freezoners and other ists and ents and ers. And these people seldom seem to resolve these with Scientology tech anyway – either there is “handling”, which is rather application of force and achieval of domination or there is “disconnection” – nothing to have in common with such out-ethical persona (non grata from there on) – which is by the way re-evolving us to my initial description of some of the OTs behavior. Nevermind. So there are complexities, so there are injustices, so there are dumb people, broken promises, betrayed vows, stolen money, invented criticism. Let’s take them as they are but let’s never lose sight from the ideal of evolving and helping others to evolve. If all of us just from time to time check our doings against that and adjust it, we could somehow make a better world. The world needs forgiveness not ruthlesness or mercilesness. So let’s forgive others so we could forgive ourselves. And what else auditing is than a process of achieving forgiveness. The only practical question which remains opened – with so much emphasize of those who could help on self importance and being right, who is going to do the job? All you cocky dumb-asses just think about it for a while before you get back to spending your limited and valuable time on proving how right you are.

  103. The truth is, reading all of the malicious slander and personal attacks on you (and me), it is helpful to think with the tech on ser facs. I mean, it blows charge. In these ways Scientology is still very helpful for me. For us. And although I know you have been hit with a lot of suppression, wrong items and wrong indications Marty, injustice really, these are just ser facs.

    “fixed method of making others wrong”.

    It’s kind of sad people that have not even been introduced to Scientology have better discipline than this. But “sacred cows” do not rise above the common sense laid out in a lot of the tech.

  104. martyrathbun09

    In the event Mike doesn’t see this comment, here is the link to his blog in the event you want to reach to him,

  105. To anyone that wishes to join the new group I shall say, “I wish you all the best in your new endeavor.”

    Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. M2 wants to apply the exact same principles and policies that led the group to where it is now.

    LRH wrote that man can not be trusted with justice. I’ve found that to be true.

    My recall on groups that only allow new members based on a majority vote of existing members is that they eventually transform into something the original founders never would have stood for. Although I would hope that this will not happen with a new group organized to deliver the tech, I fear that the results shall be the same.

  106. Old Secretary

    I have looked over the Milestone two website. If they succeed in diverting anyone from making the mistake of walking into a church, that will be a good thing. But I think they overall will be irrelevant or just another website. A big glossy chest pounding site with grandiose plans. The introductory verbage from Lana was tiresome with little meat on the bone. Their posted resume’s were however very meaty and meant to impress. What pride in their pasts. But anything more than a networking or clearinghouse for info will be rejected. No one needs or wants their blessing or control. I would love to see the Eval that resulted in this launch. I am sure that before long there will be an FSM structure rolled out. Like anything connected with a scientology organization, its about income. I bet that was not included in the eval as the real situation motivating this launch. Unless it was an OSA eval. Either way, its about income.

  107. Laughter! Laughter! Too Funny.

  108. I believe that J Krishnamurti said it best in his 1929 speech:

    “I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organize a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organize it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallized; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others. This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley. If you would attain to the mountain-top you must pass through the valley, climb the steeps, unafraid of the dangerous precipices.”

  109. martyrathbun09

    I hear ya.

  110. EnthralledObserver

    Australia’s country code is +61… so that isn’t a contact phone number in Australia. Just saying you might have a point.

  111. Kieth/Roger Roland,

    I know exactly where you are coming from as I myself was there when I first started taking it all in. There are a lot of sites with a lot of discussion and opinion.

    Find what is true for you and build on it. Read as much as you can. Ask yourself, “who wants to tell me what to do and who wants me to step up and decide for myself?”

    I hope you find peace and unstick yourself from the mess.

  112. Laughter! Laughter!

  113. martyrathbun09

    It is lost tech (posted on this very early on in all this). It’ll be (if not already done) restored in Scn Inc before Scn Inc Ltd – the latter accuses me of trying to usurp source by pointing it out and offering to help to restore it.

  114. With you on that BK…no enemies. All said and done, there are good people involved despite the differing views.

  115. martyrathbun09

    Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior addresses the source of much of your wonderings and speculations here.

  116. martyrathbun09

    For info: this comment is by someone who posted perhaps 300 lengthy comments of syrupy praises on this blog lobbying for me to assume supreme leader status and take full control of ‘independent scientology’. When he finally despaired of that happening he did the same of the M2 folk and pretty much monopolizes that forum with hero worship. My response:

  117. Its sad really that these folks have such huge ego’s that they now are coping Scn. Inc. This “religion” is ALL about Ego…always will be until it’s completely destroyed from the inside out…..Like the Roman’s 🙂

  118. Yes Marty, – Thanks so much for the update. Really appreciate the info on whats going on. Yes Karen – plus 1. Wow Texas neighbors! Wow Mosey! (in- ‘at war video.)

  119. “Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” ~ Victor E. Frankl

    Marty, it is obvious to me that you have become mindful of that ‘space’ between stimulus and response that Frankl speaks of. And it is a joy to see you choose not to respond in fear but in love.

  120. how about 1rst:
    finding out the purposes and goals of those guys? And they should find out yours, Marty. Works by communication, he? 😉 If comm is rejected (and look at each side), look for the reasons why. Without true data one can meet no decisions.

    If there any doubts that they only want – let’s say – Scn. (all LRH references in application) for everybody and their viewpoint is their personal truth: What is wrong with them/it?

    On the other hand: If the only way is to remove D.M. from top of CoS and after this, eveyerthing can be made go right again …, jes somehow true, somehow not: Look at the past 30 jears or so. CoS, groups, singles, FZ, RO, whatever: One can not turn back the hands of time. One has to start from PT.

    Goals, Intention, doingness, stats… = admin scale. Anything else short of ethics and data?
    All of the rest is MEST to be arranged and that needs to be handled which takes time, as appearently we communicate a lot via bodies …!

    Hope you get this viewpoint.

    Thanks a lot for your writings, Marty.
    One question: Is it possible for you to write a little bit more “for foreign living people”? Your written words are so hard to understand if I don’t clear up each 5th word…

  121. @ Marty

    what is your case-level? (sry 4 not finding out here or somewhere else)

  122. How many “new groups” do we have to start to achieve the goal we orinigally wanted to achieve?
    Appearently that many groups until there is ONE REAL group left/left over (?). *rofl*

  123. It is totally ok for you to have an opinion. It is also totally okay for you to write down your opinion for all to say. Since you are at it and you accept LRH without change, I would like you to answer one question for me. Read “The Code of Honor” and “The Creed of the Church of Scientology”, now read “Offenses and Penalties”. Now, please explain to me and the rest of this forum how these can work together, and how you still agree with LRH 100%?

  124. “until” = containing time = MEST. 😉

  125. Dear Concerned Citizen,

    Do you have a date for the “What’s true for you” statement?

    I ask because, usually, there are other statements, around the same time, expressing an opposite or contrary sentiment.

    It’s an old pattern in Scientology, going back to the 1950s, and continued to this day: for example, there are the “Think for yourself” signs sometimes on display outside of Scientology Orgs.

    I kind of hate to tell you this, but it’s an old trick used by confidence men and deceitful hypnotists.

    Was it sincere, and free of ulterior motive, when originally stated by Hubbard?

    At this point, frankly, considering the “total package” of Scientology, as put there by Hubbard, one has to wonder.

    It’s something to ponder.

  126. I once knew a guy who belonged to a certain Protestant church whose name was very similar to another Protestant denomination. When I asked about the similarity he told me they had once been a single group but had split over a doctrinal dispute many years ago. The big disagreement was whether it was OK to have a second cup of communion wine. One group said that since the wine was a symbol of sharing the blood of Christ, a second cup only showed more honor to the Lord. The other side argued that it devalued the sacrament and was probably just an excuse to get tipsy. Unable to resolve the dispute, they finally split into 2 separate churches, and to this day refer to each other derogatorily as one-cuppers and two-cuppers.

    The problem with fundamentalists is that there is no give and take, no ability to recognize the rightness of another being who doesn’t happen to agree with you on every detail. I predict that this group of eleven will split into two or more movements, and/or have some of its founders wander off. never to be heard from again.

  127. I left the church because of the “superior elite” mentality that placed a higher value on conformance than on original thinking.
    It is a shame that these highly trained people are still so indoctrinated in the cult mentality when there is freedom on every side of us.

    I agree with Karen.

  128. Old Secretary said: “What pride in their pasts.”

    I would have been WAY more interested in hearing what they have done SINCE leaving the Sea Org and NOT working for Scientologists who might have hired them BECAUSE of their SO past.

    In other words — HOW have you faired IN LIFE, mates, without some sort of group propping you up? (and it doesn’t *really* count if you’ve become a grand success thanks to the financial help of family)

    Were you able to find work? Were you able to have a decent home? Were you in a viable relationship. Did you start a completely unrelated to scientology business?

    Everything once learned doesn’t go away – so IF someone was truly a “great” SO member capable of booming orgs …

    He/She should have been able to translate SOME of that into a real life experience.

    BUT — as far as I know — not so much.

    Seriously – those who are so in love with the group of 11 should find out IF they have been capable of being a success without all the trappings or allowing some scientology reputation/status to open doors for them.

    As I said earlier — if those sitting at the feet of the Wise 11 knew a fraction of the truth of those I DO personally know — THEY WOULD FAINT.

    (and I’m including completely OFF THE WALL explanation of the NOTS phenomenon told to a grieving widower)

  129. 1) It is possible to have an organized and dedicated (international) group of individuals who works effectively towards dissemination, training and application of LRHs workable technology (called Scientology) and we need to accomplish and safeguard it by all means.

    2) It is not possible to have internationally organized Scientology as such attempts will eventually lead to “cult behavior”, authoritarianism, misapplication and worse

    Two postulates charging up against each other.
    Thank God I am standing outside of this GMP.

    I can let go.
    I am not attached to either one.
    I love this blog as it helped me and my wife to go out of the church.
    I miss many persons on this blog who commented here last year and the years before.
    I have lots of admiration for people who try to make things go right for others despite all invitations to do otherwise.

    I am all for integration and letting go off obstructive policy.
    I am all for some organization to keep the communication lines together.

    I will follow up what is happening with Milestone Two (many interesting people on the list).
    I will follow this blog as it is a source of inspiration.

    I see no enemies. I see people trying to change conditions.

  130. Dirk Niblick

    Karen, you are an inspiration. Thank you for being such a strong voice!

  131. DM has about as much chance of growing Scientology as M2 does. Any solid-as-a-rock movements ignore the bare fact that our highly connected global society is rapidly increasing the power of individuals, networks and coalitions. Dues-paying, state-authorized, hierarchical organizations appeal less and less to billions of human beings who are now demanding individual freedom. Individual empowerment is real, growing rapidly, and the dominant global megatrend.

  132. SKM – Send her an email. – Moderater.

  133. We’re talking THOROUGHLY independent here: me too.

  134. Christopher: It is good that you brought up the Urantia book. Yes, indeed it is a amazing book. I have read the bible and the Oahspe a couple of times. And yes, like you say it is like OT 25. I have been chipping away at the Urantia book for several yrs now. I know a guy who has read it 28 times, from cover to cover. I only wish i had such a good mind. I also just learned about a book called the: It is also an amazing book. I am going to check out the other book you mentioned. Thanks for posting it. Reading these kinds of books is what is meant by “How to study scientology”. When you read these kinds of books, it makes scientology workable. The more of these kinds of books a person reads the better. It is not possible to really make scientology really work and make real sense until you do.

  135. I have a word that describes the “willingness to spot out-ethics in others.” It is a word they understand. They learned about it, and will use if you spotted out-ethics in them. The word is “natter”.

  136. That cracks me up. Thanks for that. Really revelatory.

  137. Christopher: A quick search turned up nothing on: THE BOOK OF AL DAOUD (UK 1923). Please post a link to it.


  138. I predict that you will continue to grow in a VERY positive way. There is no doubt.

  139. Some people just never learn. I agree that the way out is not going back in. This group of 11 is just too radical for my liking.

  140. Yes. B. Volta, I also realized that “Think for yourself” and ” what is true for you is true for you” contains ulterior motives and is a very clever trap. There is a brand new multi million dollar ideal scn org in my city and these signs are posted around town in bus shelters. When I see them, I get sick.


  141. Tom Gallagher

    I’m on pins and needles waiting for the Scientology Inc. Ltd founders to announce the grand opening of the Independent Hole.

    I wonder if it will be ‘ideal’……….

  142. martyrathbun09

    Reminds me of the Kia commercial with guy from the Clippers who walks into the past to tell himself his future is ‘bright, very.’ Great little vingette – maybe you can find it on you tube.

  143. I do not have anything against organized religion. I just do not want to be part of any. I went to the web site of ms2. It is a group of elitists who want to have somebody to put down. If anybody want to be that somebody, he/she is welcome to join them. I read their so called “constitution”. You have to be an ot3 to be a full member, you have to pass an A to J check on a device that is not a lie detector. Ah! You have to pay. I am making a declaration: I will never join them.

    As for Marty, correct me if I am wrong, Marty chose the role and beingness of a philosopher, not of a leader. Why he chose to do so, I do not know, but I respect that choice. I can agree with him or disagree, that is my choice, and I believe he has proven he respects that. He also chose the role of an auditor. I believe he did it before he even knew that word. I must say I respect that too.

    The word Scientology means knowing to know. A nice word. However, so much evil was done under this word from LRH and on, that it has a very bad connotation. I therefore, am not a Scientologist.

    I see repeatedly people complain about the fact that Marty has done bad things when he was in the Sea Org, and he needs to atone for that. Marty has admitted to that. He has abandoned that route, and his hard at work to destroy that way of life and build one that is much better. For me that is good enough.

  144. martyrathbun09

    Great demonstation of OT powers SKM. The EP of the current bridge followed literally, “a legend in your own mind.” It will all be spelled out for you in my next book. It will take a book – and a whole lot of decompressing – for the literalists to get this.

  145. martyrathbun09

    My silence should not be taken as agreement with any of these evaluations and labels assigned to me.

  146. Phil Bruemmer

    Amen sister!

  147. Wow! And they want to start an organization?

  148. Dear Dio

    I read your account of meeting the Nun in the bank with interest and your conclusion “There is no hope for anything that has a scn name on it”.

    I also was a dedicated Scientologist back in the late 1960’s but had to finally come to the conclusion I was never going to change the organisation by trying to get them to see a different point of view. After trying to befriend them for many years and failing miserably I had a conversion experience and became a “born again Christian”. For a while my new purpose of “spreading the gospel (good news) took the place of “helping Ron clear the planet”, but Christians were not happy that I still considered myself a Scientologist as well as a Christian.

    The day came when a friend said I should drop the label Scientologist to which I retorted I could no more drop the label Scientologist than I could the label Christian. In that moment I knew that both the labels had left me. I had long since realised that the essence of what Jesus was speaking was UNCONDITIONAL LOVE and that the essence of Scientology was UNDERSTANDING. From there it was a logical step to call myself a ChristianScientologist.

    When I am asked what that is, I explain I am not a Christian or a Scientologist, and that true love is always manifested in understanding, hence ChristianScientology. I wonder how I would have got on with the nun you met. Christians will never accept Scientology any more than Scientologists will accept Christianity, both are religious and as such are ego driven.

    I do not believe it was LRH’s intention to create a cult any more than it was Jesus’ intention to create a religion. Jesus came to restore a relationship, first with our maker and secondly with our fellow man. Ron developed a technology that if used in conjunction with the teachings of Jesus is a world changer.

    I agree a bridge that does not include the bible is a road to nowhere.

  149. Of course, you are right. I just writing what role you play for me. If you disagree I would love for you to write it. I meant no offense.

  150. stateofcircle

    I would like to start by saying that I have never been involved, in any capacity, with Scientology. I have been involved in the “critic” community for several years, and as such have been keeping myself pretty well informed of the goings on of the Independent Movement.

    When I was thinking of what to write in my post, I was going to say that I don’t always agree with Marty, but he has done a LOT to weaken Corporate COS and to strengthen the Indy Movement, and no matter which way you slice it, everything he’s done has been important, whether one agrees with it or not. I realized that the very fact that I don’t always agree with Marty is exactly what is wrong with this Indy Inc./Mission Two/Whatever. It’s either all or nothing. If Marty -or anyone for that matter- says or does ANYTHING that is considered “off-policy” or “out-ethics” or what have you, that’s it. They’re persona non grata, they can’t be listened to or trusted, and everything they do or have to say is not only invalid, but heretical. No matter your opinion on the man, he was integral to the very information that brought this movement to this point, that allowed it to even exist. Without people like Marty and the things they’ve said and done, there would be significantly less people who feel safe declaring their independence, sharing their stories and practicing Scientology. Now, I am personally not a fan of Scientology in any of it’s forms, and I have disagreed with Marty probably more often than not. But to say he is “suppressive” and valueless is just ignorant. A person cannot possibly claim to be knowledgable of anything until they have learned every side, taken from as many sources as possible. To disregard a source because one doesn’t agree with it is pretty much the definition of ignorance.

    As an outsider, I see zero difference between COS Inc and Mission Two. It’s extremely exclusionary, it sits in judgement of everyone harshly, it polices it’s own members vigorously and alienates anyone who doesn’t meet their ridiculously high standards. It’s the same. Exact. Thing. And that very shortsightedness, I predict, will inevitably cause major backlash in time from members of Mission Two who decide to defect, just as they did with COS Inc, because of their oppressive policies and actions.

    In my opinion, in order for Scientology to gain support, it needs to present itself to outsiders as something welcoming, helpful, and a way for one to lead a better life. Gone are the days of zealotry and strict adherence. In the modern world, for someone to commit themselves to any ideology, let alone religion, it has to give them a real, positive benefit in their lives, and it also has to allow freedom. Freedom to think, speak, act and learn, and if Scientology can provide someone with a good, moral center with which to make better choices, it could potentially flourish. Getting people that have never been involved to seek and try Scientology is the only way it can be sustained, otherwise it will literally die out. There is already a stigma of Scientology because of COS. If nothing is done to change that stigma, what’s the point? Presenting potential adherents with a rigid set of rules, consequences and restrictions will do nothing but scare people away and continue to perpetuate that stigma. And it will fail, just like the COS.

  151. What they just said , me too .
    I can smell condescension many miles away . I will stay many miles away.
    Unfortunately , this validates my perception some months ago , upon opening the page of their site . It hit me right in the stomach and I knew .
    So sad.

  152. No worries here. M2 is just another choice. Take it or leave it. The “official” Church gets all huffy about them being the only one who’s got it right and everyone else is wrong. Now we have “m2” sticking out their chests and saying that they have it right.

    There’s also lots of people who firmly believe in the whole grade chart and all the OT stuff too; for them, even though the dates and names might be off, the Xenu story and all that follows is true. They “know” it’s true because they feel that they have benefited from the processes. Not “my truth”, but I will accept it as anyone else’s.

    There’s lots of people who have benefitted from various aspects of the admin tech as well. I imagine that there is some independent Scientologist somewhere who was thrown out of the Church by an IAS reg for not coughing up his cash quickly enough, who still writes up his conditions formulas every Thursday afternoon. It’s even conceivable that same person might regularly write up as part of his affluence formula, “Be sure to continue my ongoing bait and badger of staff members till they spit out their outpoints”, or “continue to use heavy ethics on the DBs in our crew until I drive them all out, leaving the organization a better place”.

    Some of the stuff a lot of us have considered harmful, we are going to find others who think it’s just the best.

    I personally think that all admin tech should be inspected through the lens of the Axioms and Logics. There’s much of Admin tech that encourages punishment and not-isness. There’s a whole lot of that. Yet, the Axioms tells us that the use of not-isness perpetuates undesirable conditions. Which is the senior datum, the most useful? A self-evident truth or a policy letter outlining what things are to be considered crimes and their corresponding punishments? So, using much of that admin stuff is like using a wire brush for a tooth brush, yes you’ll clean out the decaying food, but ruin your teeth as you do it.

    But one could, I think, re-establish a somewhat-organized Scientology group if all the policy letters were inspected against the stable data of the axioms and logics. And the ones that fostered the possibility of the use of force, invalidation, evaluation, emergency thinking and unquestioning compliance to authority were thrown out and branded as out-Tech. It’s a correct indication: those sorts of policy letters are out-Tech. They are not REAL Scientology, they are “solutions to problems that then become problems” that could only have been written by Ron when he was below 2.0 on the tone scale. If he had bothered to take a walk or gotten a session before sitting down to write them, they would never have been written. Any group using the Admin PLs must be wise enough to see this or they will just perpetuate the same problems we have all had for so long.

    But I am glad that this new group exists and that they have written so plainly what they want and their basic constitution. I won’t be a part of it, but I think it is a big step forward for them to write down and publish their creed. Due to that, those who are in accord with those sorts of views can go there and demonstrate that accord and help it grow. I know several of these people and consider them to be kind people and I think that they will attempt to deliver a kinder brand of Scientology than the Church has been delivering, and I think any attempt in that direction is good. Yes, it could be better, but it is better than what it left behind.

    I’d love to see more people who are delivering Scientology in any form, “evolved” or “standard” publishing their creeds or constitutions. Just to make things more clear for everyone. I imagine that most current members of the various protestant sects don’t know the distinguishing creeds or beliefs that differentiate their sect from the others, but one can research to find them: there are commonalities and distinct differences in the doctrines of the Methodists and the Presbyterians, as an example. And these are good to know and understand if you are really going to commit to one over the other!

    I would think that there might be something wise in following that example: if you are delivering a therapy, publish what it is you are doing, and your guidelines, your basic belief and procedures. If you have a group that supports the delivery of that therapy, publish what rules it has, if any.

    I think it’s a good idea that anyone who delivers therapy to others should make available to be known what it is that they are delivering and what the basic philosophy is behind their delivery as well.

    We all have rolled our eyes at the hypocrisy of the corporate Church claiming that they at all follow their own creed. It would please me to see a group of Independents saying it was their intention to actually adhere to the Creed of the Church of Scientology. (It seems to me that M2 won’t be adhering to the Creed; the “Ethics and Justice Codes” and the Creed of the Church are mutually exclusive. Where in the Ethics and Justice Codes are our “inalienable rights to think freely, to talk freely, to write freely their own opinions and to counter or utter or write upon the opinions of others” safeguarded?

    But I am glad that M2 exists and I wish them well and I wish them most of all a kind attitude toward others. I hope that they misunderstand, and thus, not apply a lot of the policies that they say they intend to apply. I hope that they ask questions first and hesitate long before they ever “shoot” anyone and that their kind hearts prevail over their determination to be right.

  153. This is what happens when you adopt an ideology and let it do your thinking for you.

    It is not just a mistake that a Scientologist has made, but many millions of people throughout human history have made this same mistake.

    Because life is infinitely variable, you can not think with any system. You must think in infinitely variable ways, too, to respond to how life actually exists.

    Scientology, Christianity, Communism, Atheism, etc. are all the same in this respect. It is a serious mistake to fully adopt any of them and let them do your thinking for you.

    Pick and choose among all of them, add in your own unique viewpoints and realizations, and build an infinitely variable beingness. Always be able to self-correct with something new when life throws you something not anticipated – because it always will.

    You are doing great, Marty. If no one ever challenges the ideology, there is no chance of anyone ever breaking free.

    Keep smashing the little ideological helmets into little pieces. The little pinheads will emerge, and round out with time.


  154. I am not sure I understand your reply.
    Never mind – I am out now to have a looooong walk.

  155. This situation is the result of a very, very specific work by OSA by MIscavige © – We are only seeing the surface of a very complex intrigue that has The Art of War as its guideline. The “Independent” movement or whatever developed thanks to Marty and several other with the Trhuth RD Series as its beginning constituted a tremendous threat to the Supreme Ruler – so no expenses, time, personnel, harassment tactics, PI, strategies to silence, intimidate and INFILTRATE had to be spared to DESTROY it.
    Of course you point at the TOP, you have to DIVIDE & CONQUER.
    We are not privy to the undergroung “works” that OSA & their ALLIES are doing, but we can see the effects – and with this recent action they steered the boat exactly where they wanted. What is “done” is not apparent, but the effects ARE – those effects can be used to further their agenda.
    You Marty wrote on your Post of October 17 2011 False Report Correction:
    the following in relationships to “dupes”:
    “Some witting or unwitting agents of David Miscavige within the Freezone have been running a vicious black PR campaign against me of late. I use the alternative “unwitting” as they could simply be what L Ron Hubbard referred to as “dupes.” In the early eighties Hubbard wrote of unintelligent types who are false data prone. That means people who are so confused in life and about society that they are prone to accept any lie they encounter. The more energetic within the dupe category make a pastime of spreading such accepted lies as far and wide as they can – for a variety of reasons. They can be motivated by jealousy, vengeance, or just plain parasitism, attempting to raise one’s status by attacking someone who they consider more important than themselves.”

    And on 10 Jan 2012 in this post:

    “Though only a few with sufficient experience with OSA will fully appreciate this – such as Mike, Haydn, Steve Hall – probably the biggest reason we have David Miscavige exactly where we want him is because of his inability to successfully infiltrate me and my close friends with intel agents.”

    Is very possible his inability is no longer an “inability”!
    And if I look at the immense work that has been done to make the subject used and available, if I look at the thousands of Post pages in your Blog, the comments, the revelations, the drive and passion you took in getting to the point we are I can just see the above as truth.
    Me and Renata experimented a “fraction” of what you are experiment now with this – we know how much it hurts to have “friends” stub you in the back – but OSA works 24/7 at this – and people get into their trap – for the the reasons possibly contained in the “dupe” summary.
    To be honest, I do not always agree with your visions, but I deeply respect you and can share point of views and discuss them with you enanching my and your views of life, Scientology and all.
    I say that YOU and Mosey DESERVE respect and people have to look closer at what is happening – is “Standard Operating Procedure”,it maybe looks too unreal, looks to evil, looks too……. other “reasonable” reasons or what ever.
    You did told me OSA was “owning them” …. does anyone need any other proof of this?
    In essence, keep your views, keep your standards, keep your beleifs but PLEASE … LOOK.

  156. poisonivyherself

    Beautifully written, Mike. Perfect description of a Fundamentalist anything.
    As a “never in”, I would question Indies about LRH’s intention – it would appear to me he created Scientology as a Permanent Fundamentalist Religion. For every “What’s true for you is true for you,” there seem to be a hundred other statements warning followers of the dire consequences of veering off of “Source.”
    Of course on the other hand, any religious source text can be interpreted multiple ways, which results in the inevitable religious schisms and split-offs. Hey, even Shakespeare plays can be interpreted hundreds of different ways. The danger only comes – as you say, Mike – when one sect decides its “competitors” or heretics/squirrels must be wiped out.
    Seems like M2 has that as their ultimate agenda.

  157. Phil Bruemmer

    “they all are of equal import having somehow miraculously gravitated together into a cluster”
    I took it as I took it and it did blow some charge.

  158. Phil Bruemmer

    That “Amen sister!” was for Karen #1

  159. Well said Old Secretary

  160. I’d say that’s a big fat nunaya there buddy.

    Michael A. Hobson
    Independent Scientologist(no TM)

  161. Giving time and space to such events being put in place traps being
    is just setting traps, dont be fooled , look and listen before diving .
    But its not part of anything I have beleif.
    Scientology Tech is one thing, which we have out side of the Church.
    What is being presented across the web /and EXSMB is not in my books anything I would be putting time into.Its a falsehood.

  162. The good about not being SCNist is I dont have to be happy family and get blamed for the sins of people who claim you will attain total freedom through self denial. My allegiance is with a philosophy, a point of view, that can have labels or not. But if those labels no longer represent the philosophy, ta-ta.

  163. My predictions:

    OSA will dream up a conspiracy, spreading the rumor that Mosey was a plant from Big Pharma all along.

    The independents will grab the ball and spread it far and wide, with the twist that Marty was implanted before birth to execute the masterplan.

    Marty will continue doing what he is best at, writing stories.

    Big Pharma and the establishment will cheer and give the people what they wan’t, drugs and war.

    History repeats itself again and again.

    What a sad story.

  164. martyrathbun09

    Thanks Claudio. One day when we meet again I’ll tell you the whole story. I watched the whole thing unfold. I could have – easily, and I mean like shooting fish in a barrel easy – played that game for the past year. And I would have won – make no mistake about it. The result would have been me – uninfiltrated – running something resembling that travesty M2, rolling in the greenbacks, with a flock of adoring cheerleaders. And all you all being that much more sheep. I followed my conscience and stayed focused on integrating, evolving, and transending. Some find it of use. Some don’t. That’s the way of the world.

  165. martyrathbun09


  166. martyrathbun09

    The old man said that very thing about Scientology in 1952, the PDC, which I have quoted in some past post. Irony of ironies.

  167. Quo Bene: It’s only a sad story IF you don’t believe that at ones core there is “basic goodness” “buddhanature” “Christ Consciousness” etc …

    And now with the internet and the changes in structures of businesses etc., as so well stated above by Just Me —

    The world as you know it is changing.

    One can choose to be awake during the change or fall asleep with a fifth of scotch and glued to the TV.

    HOWEVER, today – unlike “HISTORY” we have a greater and greater chance to wake up. Why? Because MORE people are communicating their truths and sharing.

    Don’t be sad — it’s not going to change overnight — habits die hard but I firmly believe it’s going to change – I prefer to resonate with those who WISH to change.

    Not those who feel they can never change.

    I think you, Quo Bene actually WISH to change. But, I’ve been wrong before, that is for sure 🙂

  168. Nicely said, Alanzo!

  169. Excellent post Dirk.
    I will have to add that to my list of cult characteristics.
    1. 100% certainty that you are right.
    2. Wanting a hero and or wanting to be the hero or person in supreme control.
    3. Wanting to be controlled.
    4. Wanting to be told how to think.

    It seems that people that may be struggling in life are vulnerable to a cult

  170. Yes, I am very interested in knowing the story. And I know you could have turned this Movement into a 2ND Church whenever you wished, I see that clearly but you did not want sheep but leaders, thinkers, people that could establish their own line with the tech, LRH, philosophy etc. No bloody Organized Religion – I know you followed your conscience and I deeply respect you for that – I do not see nobody yet “walking on water…..” – so I see still a long search ahead of us – I am still very much intrigued in LRHs Tech and I am learning it really for the first time – and it was because of you that I started again auditing, studying, applying, searching, enquiring, comparing etc.
    Thanks to that this week we had the very first Independent SOLO NOTs completion – Is he walking on water? Certaintly not – is he an happier being – Definetely. And I know that thousands out there that are now using the tech, maybe for the very first time as was intended, and are doing that because of you being there exposing, holding the fort, C/Sing, Auditing, Blogging etc. This is what count in my opinion – you got stats my friend, you got products, I admire you for that.
    And by the way I read The Warrior – I consider it an amazing reading – Few things unsettled me, a few I have to digest big times, some I do not agree, but is a fantastic piece of work and is of enormous value in respect to a clearer picture of the situation that we lived and are living now. Thanks for having done that.

  171. I agree whole heartedly with everything you wrote, except that you are glad that m2 exists. I am not sure why we need another one of those. Isn’t Co$ enough?

  172. Marty, I believe this is false:

    “This fellow who accused me of having designs on the Source position is
    garnering a lot of credibility in the Milestone Two community by pronouncing
    that he’s got OT IX, X, XI, and XII (so, don’t despair wise man #4) which
    apparently he received telepathically from Ron.”

    I think what this person said was that the “Old” OT Levels which were replaced or removed are valid levels and recommends the should be done, but this person didnt claim to have OT IX, X, XI, and XII. I dont recall anything about anyone other than Bill Robertson claiming to have received telepathic communication from LRH.

    Is this correct?

  173. Marty – ” I followed my conscience and stayed focused on integrating, evolving, and transending. Some find it of use. Some don’t. That’s the way of the world.” I, for one, am very grateful for this. The way out is NOT the way back in.

    “It takes courage to push yourself to places that you have never been before… to test your limits… to break through barriers.
    And the day came when the risk it took to remain tight inside the bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.”
    ~ Anais Nin ~

  174. That is an interesting view point, but you may be right. It makes sense.

  175. Humans are ripe for the picking.

  176. martyrathbun09

    Thanks. Look forward to meeting. Of all the recommendations I have made, I really emphasize this one: A tremendous amount of clarity can be brought to the subject of Scientology – particularly its upper levels – by reading, understanding, comparing to Scn and thinking with The Tao of Physics (see recommended reading section). If you don’t read that I am sure I will continue to sound rather cryptic and out there. And that is ok with me too.

  177. martyrathbun09

    No. Pat Broeker did too. You reminded me, one of your leaders also called me treasonous for having opined that Robertson’s claim was rather cultish.

  178. Sigh!! History on repeat. It’s not news, but it is disheartening.

  179. I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member.

    Groucho Marx

  180. Cult Member is as Cult Member does.

    These 11 guys have truly blown my mind. And I didn’t think that was possible anymore.

    The phenomenon of people leaving the C of S, yet craving to duplicate it has had me puzzled these last many years. But like you said Marty, “predictable if not inevitable”.

    Maybe you’ve heard the phrase “I’ll do anything to lose weight, except eat healthy and exercise”?

    These dime-a-dozen cultists could say “I’ll do anything to be free except think for myself and love my fellow man”.

    These guys are a joke. Good luck to them and their PCs though. That’s all that really matters. Who wants to be audited by people from whom such violently-evaluative judgmentalism flows so easily? Jesus, No thanks.

    So again, much luck to the Magic 11. They’re all probably going to need it.

  181. Great. Will follow your suggestion will read the book and will get back to you with my observations on it. I’m sure will be uplifting!

  182. Marty’s book so far has been majorly unacknowledged for Marty’s taking some very serious salvos at LRH’s cornerstone way of thinking, in Keeping Scientology Working. .

    It takes some serious thinking to see LRH’s biggest flaws. That was a huge public and personal step for Marty to write in his 3rd book.

    But even challenging some of the core principles in Keeping Scientology Working would not preclude still being a practitioner of the auditing, case supervising, course supervising, study techs though.

    I haven’t finished Marty’s book, so will have to see what he finally concludes about is the definition of Scientologist and Scientology.

    As a Hubbard writings nerd, I always grade everything back to LRH’s writings or lectures, even though we know LRH cobbled thngs from others.

    To me Scientology is overwhelmingly LRH.

    I think because Scientology is a person to person activity, that the attitude of the “Scientology” person that one receives the Scientology from, is so important.

    The church of Scientology persons today, act so differently, from the ex official Scientology average persons.

    And among the ex official Scientolgy persons (all the array of ex official members), they each have their personal emotional impact as they teach or relay Scientology ideas and history.

    Scientology, for all it’s complexity, to me, goes back to LRH’s massive output, and his own evolution of thought, through his life, and up to his final days, and his final thoughts, which I’m thankful have been made more public than at any time in Scientology’s history to date.

  183. The Progressive faction and the Fundamentalist(KSW)faction having irreconcilable differences is expected and with historical religious precedent. The Eastern Orthodox Church(Fundamentalists) broke from the Roman Catholic Church before Martin Luther(Progressive) began his reformation. The Progressive movement was quite a success by any analysis. Marty, this Progressive movement has legs and your continued leadership will make it flourish. Peace&ARC.

  184. Li'll bit of stuff

    Marty. If you care to look closely I posted the comment not Calvin I used his avitar as I do not have one of my own on your blog or any other blog for that matter. I have been watching and reading these blogs from the sidelines for sometime now and it pains me to see people who have vast amounts of “knowledge” and tech to handle almost any situation, argue berate and tear into one another like a pack of wolves. (Surely the common enemy is DM )

    For you to write such criticism and bad mouth people, who, in whatever shape or form want to keep using Scientology to help themselves and others, is tantamount to nothing more than symptoms of O/Ws. As a trained fellow auditor myself, one would assume we might agree on that, unless you’ve transcended that too.

    I can tell this, Marty, that Calvin finally “got” that he was quite unwelcome on your blog, and moved on to a pasture with more”syrup,” as you put it,
    and less of the “hatred” which he found foreign to “moving On Up A Little Higher.” If you care to check back, he DID ask you, in closing,–” WHERE
    is the LOVE, Marty?”

    In closing, I hope that you can finally come to a place in your universe where you personally, can ACTUALLY “let go.”


  185. Eh sometimes I throw a hint and expect from the other to understand what I’m talking about. It can be fun, but nevertheless, it doesn’t always add up to positive ARC.

    It isn’t that I don’t consider SCNist as generality my friends and allies, or that I consider them -as generality- my enemies. But I’ve seen SCN can mean a variety of things. I want personal truth, and basic truth and self/pan-determinism and other alligned-with-the-previous-I-mentioned stuff. I consider it easy and do-able (and be-able). I’m glad for all SCNists, atheists, and whateverologists that are on such a road, and I consider we are together. I only don’t like the opposite road, and don’t consider such people my friends and allies. Thus, I like the essense of things and not the labels. Labels can be misleading.

  186. Hi Pip, I am surprised to see you here, and I am also glad to see you here.
    This a good and sane blog. The best I know of.

    I thank you for responding to my post. I also wonder how you would of got along with her? I have been trying to use the title “Christian Scientologist”, on occasion. But only a few times. I wish I would of thought of that with the nun.

    And yes, a bridge without at least the bible is a bridge to nowhere.

    The bridge and tech are missing the Jesus factor.

    I sometimes wonder what was going on in Hubbards mind. I wonder how much he knew and was not saying?

    What was going on in his mind when he said to the BBC interviewer, when the interviewer asked ” What is Scientology?” And Hubbard cleverly drawled out something to the effect that is something that will help the Christian become a better Christian and a Buddist a better Buddist.

    Some yrs ago I told that to a not too bright Christian friend. And he slightly boiled over and stupidly said it is not possible to become a better Christian. (Before this he ridiculed me on scn a few times.)

    A yr or so later we met and he says to me: I do not know how to tell you this, but I found something so good that I do not know how to explain it.

    I asked; what is it?

    He said it is called Landmark?

    I said I know about it, that is scientology.

    His jaw dropped and he was left speechless for sometime after that.

    If you don’t know what LandMark is, it is a spin off off scientology developed by Werner Erhard an ex scngist:

    It is really a watered down and rearranged and “high pressure sell your friends scheme” , version of scn.


  187. Looking over the M2 posts, I see this:

    “An associate member cannot become a Full Member;
    3) [By] Denigrating or disparaging L. Ron Hubbard or the workability of the technologies he discovered;”

    Oh, so you can’t question LRH or think freely? NO THANKS. THAT IS A CULT. BEEN THERE, DONE THAT.

  188. Cooper Kessel

    Me for! as in Four! Best way to arrive at

  189. Cooper Kessel

    Oops…Best way to arrive at a point from which to view is to be outside as differentiated from ‘inside a group’. For me, this has established a dimension of space and increased my ability to differentiate.

  190. Cooper Kessel

    Excellent Chris,
    ” invisibly steered them into harassing enemies such as Marty,”

    The effects of participating in a cult over a period of time can have lasting effects, especially on an ‘ex member’ who thinks he/she is free from it. Beware of such a spell as it can cast a long shadow!

  191. Roger From Switzerland Thought

    Once there was one “SOURCE”, one “GOD” or one “WORD”.
    This blog created many “SOURCES”, many “GODS”, many “WORDS” !

    This is freeedom !

  192. Cooper Kessel

    It is part of the process. The good news is we are winding our way through it. Hold the line and damn the frickin torpedoes!

  193. Cooper Kessel

    Hey Ronn,
    I guess we could offer up to purchase some not for profit sec checking to be sure we made the grade to join!

  194. The Christian Religion remains a good metaphor for all this. I am not an expert at all in this area, nor even a serious student. So, read all this with a tolerance for that, please.

    Many use the metaphor of the Protestant schism in talking about current day Scientology. The Catholic Church was definitely corrupt and the reformation lost thousands to the new sects, but thousands remained. Most all England I think smoothly transitioned into the Anglican Church as an example. I have read that the Anglican Church is essentially Catholic but that it was markedly influenced by the Reformation. And here we are, hundreds of years later and the Catholic Church is still going on and on with many viewing it as still corrupt. Although it is definitely in most circles not politically correct to argue this.

    So, there’s room for everyone. I think that there are a lot of people in Western society that don’t think anyone “needs” any religion at all. I know I don’t. (How many times have you seen “Spiritual but not religious” as a person’s religious status in facebook as an example?) But, I think in most other places of the world, religion remains a big deal!

    The only people I can imagine who would still want to keep Scientology organized and to be considered a religion would be those still locked into the indoctrination we got from the Church: that the world is sick and crazy place and the only hope that it has is pure Scientology and that nothing else will help or work at all. Not my point of view and not the view of most others here, I think.

    I think that M2 has got those sort of people. They are people who are anxious as they feel the world is falling apart and that we need to really get the show on the road to arrest the decline. And they are pissed off that DM is diverting funds and energy to the buildings.

    They want a return to the earlier pre-DM stuff. This still has got crush sell, heavy ethics, stat pushes, comm evs and KRs, but there are more people on course and in session, and the buildings are clean but not lavish. And there’s still no toilet paper in the heads! But it’s still more fun than the current offering.


  195. Tom Gallagher


    I wonder if they’ll employ the highly effective SRA (severe reality adjustment) program. Maybe they can throw in a bit of Gang Bang Sec Checking, too!

    After all, LRH IS God.

  196. martyrathbun09

    The love is in his heart . Until he recognizes that he will continue to graze the way of the sheep.

  197. Marty, now you know what it was like leaving the COS and coming into what the only thing around for miles was, “the FreeZone.” One half whacked out real squirrels intermixed with critic knowbests, one fourth a Power struggle , one eighth “channeling” heeheheheh With the other eighth worthy of giving some attention to.

    I , personally, enjoy your dialogue and find it refreshing. It might take years to yank a person out of their agreed upon programming before they will even be able to see your face in the present time, much less be able to get what you are saying/doing.

    Replacing one Leader for another is not the answer in the end, however, it just might be a necessity for awhile as we get people to wake up and find out who they are. Perhaps Ron realized that, ya think? Not that I’m so far up the lines, but I have to laugh and then cringe when I think of how Ron had to deal with everything from psychotic to lame brains while he was on his journey. I felt for him because he was actually doing something about it all, even if some want to stress “wrong” over “right.” I feel for you too. But like Ron, you have what it takes so my friend, carry on with “your” journey. Forget the yowling dogs. : )

  198. Who cares? Does it define a person’s spiritual awareness? Intelligence? Ability? Sanity? Ability to reason? One of the most bat-shit crazy individuals I’ve had the misfortune to know was OTVIII; and I’ve worked with “wogs” who were some of the most brilliant and able people I’ve known.

    So what value is it?

    I find it refreshing that both Marty and Mike have not flaunted their case level in an effort to gain respect or credibility.

  199. gretchen dewire

    I get a kick out of all these people having opinions on what Marty should be doing with his life.You have really hit some buttons Marty. Considering we are in the process of destroying the planet we live on , criticising Marty, a small speck in the universe seems kind of silly to me.Sorry Marty. You have helped me alot to move on up a little higher so it wasnt meant as a slight on your person. Love Gretchen

  200. You’re right. Great little vignette. Here ya go…

  201. I don’t think he has ever identified himself as a “case level”. Come to think of it, either have I. At least he gives out his name and address.

  202. +1

    I think all independent Scientologists, especially those who are “with Ron”, should consider what he wrote in the excerpt below, from the theory of process R2-34 Description Processing, COHA:

    “Now, here in this process, we view the entire philosophy of life. We see quite adequately here that an individual still retains anything which he has never accepted As-is. In other words, if a man has fought evil for years, he has never viewed evil As-is. Thus evil will remain with him. If he has fought ugliness for years, ugliness will remain with him. Terribly enough, because he has accepted As-is the goodness of life, and the beauty of life, these things are continually being unmocked. We eat good food — we leave bad food alone. When something smells bad we turn our face away from it. Here we have the entire anatomy of the dwindling spiral. We see that individuals continually take the upper cream off life and leave the skimmed milk, and then take skimmed milk and leave the drowned flies, until they are trying to go all the way to the bottom to close with the basic As-is-ness of existence, and this basic As-is-ness is mystery and stupidity.

    “This works in other ways. An individual walking through life and seeing, for instance, beautiful people, comes at length into a condition where he does not believe beautiful people exist, for he has taken their As-is-ness so long that the only thing which can make any effect upon him are less beautiful people. These he has not un-mocked. Thus we get the entire engram bank backing up those things which were never observed directly. One can understand, then, that ten thousand years ago in the civilizations of earth there might have been incredible beauty, and one can easily see that these would have no background in the bank of the preclear. However, the ugly spots of ten thousand years ago would still be there, and so would bring up the humdrum routine present time existing without valor, gallantry, or beauty.

    “This is the anatomy of what Krishna might have meant when he inferred that the bad must be taken with the good. Here we see, then, the explanation of why some men can tolerate only disease and dirt, why some can tolerate only poverty, and we behold, in short, the entire mechanism behind Acceptance Level. Acceptance Level Processing, as contained in the PAB’s was one method of reaching a betterment of conditions. Description Processing is a far better method of reaching that condition.” (COHA)

  203. Marty, recently you commented that you didn’t think there was a philosophy in Scientology and I get what you mean with respect to how the subject evolved. But I think the above excerpt is a good summary of the original, basic philosophy – as stated in the first sentence: “Now, here in this process we view the entire philosophy of life”.

  204. Decompressing took a while and this blog helped a lot too! Me back ? NO WAY, José

  205. When miscavige, via his high-priced lawyers, took a pot shot and myself and my wife a few years back, two people stepped up and helped. If those two people hadn’t done that, it’s quite possible that we would have shut down and called it quits for good.

    Mark (Marty) Rathbun and Mike Rinder are two of the most intelligent, compassionate and competent people I’ve ever had the pleasure of meeting.
    Saved the day, they did.

    They didn’t sec check me or A-J check me or insist I follow their personal justice codes in return for, or prior to their help. They just helped.

    I don’t really think I need to say any more.


  206. I like what you said.

  207. Pingback: Post-Scientology | Grasshopper's Blog

  208. I meant “took a pot shot AT myself and my wife.

  209. Marty, you said this so nicely:

    “I followed my conscience and stayed focused on integrating, evolving, and transending. Some find it of use. Some don’t. That’s the way of the world.”

    Just want to acknowledge you and your work and say I find it of use.

  210. This thread is a revelation in itself. Marty was attacked here for months, his comm lines and resources mauled over, it finally comes out, and he is attacked by some for getting attacked, and called a war monger.

    This is why groups give me the creeps. Many are formed on mutual out ruds and become a cluster fuck. One of the first posts on that blog was a fair game of Marty, bringing up something from his “past” and using it to restimulate people. Might as well have been dumping P.C. folder data on the net. Old hat.

    Our own National Anthem a war tune. Francis Scott Key’s passion turned into a war chant. “War on poverty” “War an drugs” our own government can’t do anything constructive with out calling it a “war” to gain approval for the program.

    Most people use a bottle of champagne to christen a new opening. In field Scientology this year, it has to be someone’s head against the front porch.

    Marty did NOTHING but flow every single one of those people power. He did not mock up their ser facs. They did. If they think they are going to raise a new civilization with roots in treason and betrayal, they have no command of Scientology, or even Christianity. “Treat others as you would like to be treated yourself”. “Do not bear false witness”.

    Some people need to go back to the earlier religion they couldn’t think with. Get that sorted out.

    I am sorry, if a person can not think with the simple ten commandments and the golden rule, how are they going to be able to think with the wide body of knowledge in Scientology? The Golden Rule doesn’t make sense?
    How complicated is that?

  211. History repeating itself; Martin Luther had the same experience when ‘leaders’ of the protestant reformation Luther initiated radicalized and went to great extremes and destroyed countless thousands of lives, all the time claiming they were the true faithful of the reformation. Eventually they lost credibility and sanity again prevailed.

    This radicalization phenomenon can be seen to occur in nearly every single instance when an established religious belief underwent a reformation. I think it is because during the initial stages of any religious reformation, there are no controls, and an ‘anything goes’ attitude manifests in those who tend in that direction anyway. SPs will follow a ‘good’ idea if they can use it as camouflage to hide their true intents.

    It is unfortunate that such is happening now, amongst us and our friends, but it was predictable. Nonetheless, those who grasp the truth will not let it go and let it fall back into the shadows; there are too many of us now.


  212. I think that it was inevitable that some people would start groups that followed Ron’s earnest sense of “mission.” It is, however, incredibly impolite to judge others while doing so.

    I mean, think about it: ANY person who left the church is guilty of violating Scientology policy and tech. It is off-policy and out-tech to leave the church. Period. It is out KSW. Period. Anyone who does do has decided that they can pick and choose which policies apply and which don’t. So, who the cuss is anyone to judge or call anyone else names, or (more egregiously) assign ANYONE a condition? Look in the freaking mirror, and fix thyself. Jesus had this one right – let he who is without sin throw the first stone.

    Look, I know there is a lot of value in Scientology and really, the only way to learn much of it is in a classroom, which means groups. Groups are okay. But groups can only manage themselves. They can’t manage me.

    It is unfortunate (and not smart at all) for any group to start out in a combative mode. I am hoping they overcome it.

    Thanks for the info, Marty.

    By the way, this post inspired me to write a related post:

    Mark Patterson

  213. “Scientology is not going to move Independently just with independent counselors.”

    Theo, Auditing is the ONLY valuable exchange within this madness. All of the rest is just noise and distractions. Well, not translations. That is very valuable. The Freezone was out here making clears, get this, with only the Dianetics book in hand before the first Org was ever opened.

    Yes, the FREEZONE came FIRST. People could buy a book and attend lectures and go home and get on with it. There are people in the Freezone who were auditing before the M2 11 were born.

    ALL of the good in this arena comes from AUDITORS. It does NOT take a group to clear to someone. It takes an auditor.

  214. Off topic perhaps, but how juicefull comment about evaluations :
    “Zhuangzi and Huizi were strolling along the dam of the Hao Waterfall when Zhuangzi said, “See how the minnows come out and dart around where they please! That’s what fish really enjoy!”
    Huizi said, “You’re not a fish — how do you know what fish enjoy?”
    Zhuangzi said, “You’re not me, so how do you know I don’t know what fish enjoy?”
    Huizi said, “I’m not you, so I certainly don’t know what you know. On the other hand, you’re certainly not a fish — so that still proves you don’t know what fish enjoy!”
    Zhuangzi said, “Let’s go back to your original question, please. You asked me how I know what fish enjoy — so you already knew I knew it when you asked the question. I know it by standing here beside the Hao.”
    Since out of corporate scientology, and still practicing a lot of it, I am like a fish enjoying life.
    Love to you all 🙂

  215. Without the internet as a resource I had been in contact especially in 1984 with many so called disaffected people. They did form all kinds of different groups. Real groups. Not „virtual“ computer based groups like today. Those days I had as a stable point my own opinion about Scientology and how to apply. So, I did not join any one of that new groups. The madness had not been that high level due to communication problems. Now in present time to open a „new group“ is fairly easy. Go to wordpress and claim something and you could be seen or considered a group. Reading through all that stuff is really confusing for me. For me it is completely impossible to decide about all that different „groups“ or opinions. So I stay alone. As I did back in the 80ies. If I look at all that Scientology stuff from whatever groups viewpoint is very confusing. In order to handle that confusion I would need to join a viewpoint. And then make this a stable viewpoint. Without that looking at the subject can be really confusing.
    I would say now, if I would sit on an e-meter some thousand years in the future then this area would rock slam on the meter. This situation I am facing right now would look like a goals problem mass item. So, I conclude that this situation I am facing right now is artificially made. It is a product of someone and not something that is naturally developing.
    Or in other words: who is financing that Inc. and who is the „case officer“ ?

  216. Dirk Niblick

    Yes, this was the biggest point what threw up red flags for me as well. But it’s nothing new… they have been deleting comments, banning people, etc. for quite some time now for asking questions, daring to point out inconsistencies, or discussing ways LRH’s material could be improved upon.

    As I mentioned above, it’s that attitude of 100% certainty that is alarming. LRH was 100% right and his technology is 100% workable, I am 100% certain.

    That’s DM’s attitude (only replace the above sentence with “I am 100% right and my technology is 100% workable, and you had better be 100% certain, or else”).

  217. Me too!

  218. Marty I stopped calling myself a Scientologist over a year ago. Partly because I could already see the writing on the wall and wanted no part of where it was going and partly because my beliefs and personal convictions don’t define me – they are simply part of the journey of me. That doesn’t mean I reject the subject, it just means it doesn’t change my core ‘beingness’.
    What you do or choose to call yourself is your business. You’re a good and honest being. That’s enough for me.

  219. Concise, yet astute!

  220. (((‘like’ button)))

  221. He does anyway 😀

  222. …that’s what I did when you advised me to ‘let it go’ by the way 😉

  223. Norbert, it seems like you didn’t read Marty’s OP.

  224. Tony… yes indeed. I was at lunch today where a friend quoted Vaclav Havel who surely had his experience with totalitarian thinking….”Keep the company of those who seek the truth–run from those who have found it.”

  225. Nice quote Monte! i thought at first you were quoting LRH from “Advanced Procedure and Axioms”……

  226. Could it also be the making of the tower of scrabble 😉

  227. Just read their Constitution.

    You can’t be a member of their cult if you:-

    “Denigrate or disparage L. Ron Hubbard or the workability of the technologies he discovered”

    Out of the frying pan…

  228. Oops – didn’t realise Obnosis above had already spotted this.

    I also notice their rules state that you have to be at least OTIII to get a top position. Interesting. Presumably this is because they only want senior people who have crossed the final mental rubicon.

  229. Dan, I think both your posts here are excellent, just want to acknowledge your thoughtfulness.

    Esp. love that sentence about the (lack of) toilet paper! If I ever walk into an org again to check things out, the first place I’ll stop will be the head. If there’s no TP, I’ll know that I’m back to the good old days when the culture of Scientology was still a bit odd in some ways, but where auditors were being made, people were winning from their auditing (and not going broke in the process), and there was actually some hope for a better future for this planet.

    And no IAS reges lurking around every corner.

  230. Did the HASI have levels of paid membership? I had the impression the HASI was egalitarian. If so, wouldn’t “levels of paid membership” be “off-Source”? Milestone 2 sounds more and more like an RCS clone.‎
    e·gal·i·tar·i·an ( -g l -târ – n). adj. Affirming, promoting, or characterized by belief in equal political, economic, social, and civil rights for all people

  231. Simple Thetan –

    I do see what you are saying, and I’m sorry that happened to you, and I’m not trying to ‘helpfully point out flaws in your logic’. Axiom of Scn 58 applies. The central point is “agree” – if you really want to get down to basics and truth. Do you actually “agree” with anything, or do you just recognize truths?

    Do I withdraw allegiance once granted? Maybe I do! I have and will continue to make a big deal out of things when they work against my survival sufficiently for me to “disagree” (openly, expressedly). The justice codes have been so very broadly misapplied they aren’t applied at all as intended. If I have produced consistently for an extended period of time sufficient to provide reliable predictability, and someone wants to “apply justice codes” to me for ONE simple error, I will tell that individual in no uncertain terms what he can do with the rest of his eternity. Is that, ultimately, in really ultimate terms, my mistake? Clearly, yes. But is it expedient? I thought so when I did it. Did I also abandon Scn because some little staff fruiter jacked himself into an insanity in my face, pretending to represent Scn with the “agreement” of “senior officers”? Clearly, not. I determine my thought and action and fate. Swords are only ugly if used to ugly purposes. In the right hands, they’re light-swords, and things of beauty never to be feared.

    Very broad misconceptions as to what constitutes a group abound. If the true nature of a group were understood, there would be much more sanity displayed by groups, and towards groups. It is “group think” which is opposed, or “the lemming tendency”. One might argue that we have seldom ever had a true group. We are into new ground, with Scientology. Axiom of Scn 58 applies.


  232. Tom Gallagher


    On your post titled “Dichotomized Religion & Sheep Production” (6/13/13) I asked the following question, “Marty, thanks for another relevant and thought starting post.

    Now I have a question that I’m hoping you can shed some light on:

    Technically speaking, is there a case or other condition that compels some folks to seek out and cling to an obvious cult and or to seek out and worship a cult founder? Then again, that question is probably answered in your latest book of which we are still awaiting delivery…”

    To which you responded, “I think its called ‘fear’.

    My response was, “Thanks and I’ll note from the Tone Scale in Full-

    1.3 Resentment
    1.2 No Sympathy
    1.15 Unexpressed Resentment
    1.1 Covert Hostility
    1.02 Anxiety
    1.0 Fear
    .98 Despair
    .94 Numb

    What a splendid emotional band to be stuck in. By the way, goes to show why you personally catch so much (B)ravo (S)ierra!”

    To which you responded, “That blows charge!”

    The fear band is it IMHO hence I’ve chewed on this on and off because I continued to look at the ultimate case issue of ‘Just what are they in fear of’?

    I have a CS theory: Their fears and concerns center on the 8th Dynamic. The dynamic unaddressed by the founder- Infinity.

    Somewhere along the line I think they fear LRH showing up in TUG ONE and counting the loyal officers and condemning the others.

    It seems to me that something or whatever is in re-stimulation.

    I hope they seek to have it run out.

    Am I far off base Marty?

  233. Mrs. P – I think the disturbance in the force is about the protests in Brazil , and that concerns the World Cup soccer (futbol) matches. Serious heat, there.

  234. Tom Gallagher

    It sure seems relevant to “The way out is not the way back in”.

  235. Joe Pendleton

    Please note what founding member #4 is quoted as saying to Marty:

    “The notion that you would express opinions so obviously contrary to LRH is treason at the least, and more likely simply another dramatization of confusion.”

    Essentially, that is the sin that Marty is guilty of: having and expressing opinions that are not accepted by the orthodox religious. He DARED to be an independent thinker – a being who could as an individual, observe and form postulates, opinions and viewpoints that were his own. The absolute unforgiveable among these were his disagreements with KSW and LRH himself on a number of points.

    The fundamentalist religious have their stable data, which rule all of their thinking and all of their life. Just HAVING an independent or contrary viewpoint from within their group threatens every fiber of their being and thought. Which is why in Christianity of old and Islam even now, one risks one’s own physical life by expressing such views. One cannot remain “one of us” and hold different viewpoints or opinions on the sacred scriptures. And so it is with Scientology.

    Decades from now, Marty’s books will remain important reference sources for those who want to know about “the Scientology experience.” His contributions are unique and very valuable.

  236. Concerned Citizen

    I understand what you say. I can see why you feel that way. I was never one who thought of Ron as a “perfect god” or had unrealistic expectations of his perfection. He was human, his ideas regardless of his intent helped me and for that I will always be grateful.

    I think you missed my point, his definition of personal integrity as a concept is valid for me, It is an idea I embrace, regardless of original intent. We can spend the rest of our lives busily debating LRHs and Miscaviges intent and the way it is bad or we can take the ideas and principles we agree with and find beneficial and do something good with them, I chose the later and frankly there is little interest on my part in continuing to dissect the merits and honesty of Hubbard or anyone else.

    The point is to improve oneself, not to prove self or others right/wrong. If Scientology ideas can help you- great use them, if they can’t help you, fine don’t use them. Whatever can help you improve yourself and others is valid and that is my point.

    This is always true for me, I have many objections with Vatican policies and Ideas, but I would never discourage someone from being a Christian if it helped them and I have seen people really change for the better with Christianity and I have reason to doubt much of the intent of what is written in the Bible. But everyone has their own path, their improvement/salvation etc. is theirs to attain any way they find attainable and I say Yay for them.

    Did LRH mean this as a trap? Who cares! I certainly don’t anymore. It is a good idea and I have adopted it. I think Marty has too and I say good for him. I do not care to debate endlessly how others were at fault. We all have done things bad, we all have a dark side and I truly believe that even the worse of us have more goodness than can be imagined. So throw a stone if you are free of sin.

    Otherwise best of luck with your pursuit of betterment, if that is your intent.

  237. I will bet that David Miscavige is sleeping pretty well these days despite all the Narconon flaps and other shit going on.

  238. Joe Pendleton

    Karen, as someone who worked in the tech area of Scientology for over 35 years myself, I could not agree with you more. Organized religion almost always results in the attempted (and usually successful) takeover and control of every aspect of individuals’ lives, always using force, threats, punishments and enforced ideas/values to do this. One always has to allow one’s own opinions and viewpoints to be secondary to those of the “source” of the religion. (Why A-J checks and all that in this new group? My suspicion is that there might be a few Flag “whales” who have a lot of money to spend, want to leave the CoS and continue with their services, but want to do it in an atmosphere that is as much like the CoS as possible, but with cheaper prices and forgiveness of whatever is currently getting them in hot water with the CoS – just a guess here. Though it could just be a matter of the “founders” themselves who want to re-create the fun times of past 3Ds – get as close to the pre-Miscavige days as they can).

  239. Joe Pendleton

    Tony, very well stated, a very in-ARC viewpoint.

  240. Concerned Citizen

    Couldn’t agree more. we are all in the same soup after all. hate pollutes the heart, hate and fear in my opinion the heart of the trap and the cause of most human suffering. Don’t buy it, don’t play the game and you are ahead.

    I love a quote by Dalai Lama… “Don’t assume someone is lost because they are on a different path than yours” so I wish everyone the best of luck with whatever path they find workable. And I respect their right to change course anytime and however many times they need it. I will never again support anyone’s insistence that their viewpoint or path and theirs alone is what is right for everyone. It does not matter who they are. But I don’t hate them for that I simply disagree.

  241. Wow, alot of bpc here and below 2.0 comments about people who wish to be free enough to do their own thing. So that freedom and the people trying to express it (and those of us who agree with them) are criticized here and belittled, and you accuse MS2 of returning to the cultish ways!

    I see the church alot like a spacecraft returning to earth, too steep and it burns up, not enough angle and it bounces off the atmosphere and heads off into space. The angle has to be just right. We could have done it, there were just a few points that needed attending to but we blew it.

    Maybe the bpc is from the missed phenomena, because Scientology works, pretty well all of the posters on this blog have admitted as much. You use Scn lingo, apply the concepts, even if it is to blame, the concepts are still being used.

    I see MS2 as a hope that maybe this time we can learn from our mistakes and get it right. Its got my support up to the point that it adopts the cultish behaviour of the current church. But knowing a couple of these 11, I dont believe this will happen.

    I am sorry for any bad blood that has occured and I hope this can be overcome so we can live in each others space in some sort of harmony!
    I believe it goes like this: “There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, that it ill behoves any of us to talk about the rest of us.”

  242. Marty,

    I just finished reading your book last week and have been thinking about it ever since. I can certainly see how LRH’s “fight fire with fire” strategy became the default “culture” throughout scientology. It was interesting to hear of the non-FOIA data regarding the tactics of the various government agencies arrayed against the C of S and LRH.

    I for one am glad that you had the strength of character to get out of that situation and ultimately do the astonishing amount of good that you’ve done in just a handful of years. Whatever you’re doing, keep it up if its what you want. You’re a good man and don’t ever let anyone tell you otherwise.

    As for this other political bullshit. I’ll say what I used to tell friends of mine on the ship when I was trying to figure out what was wrong with the orgs and scientology at the time – “It makes me tired just thinking about it”.

    I also think that anyone hell bent on creating any kind of authoritarian organization would be well served to heed this observation from St, Thomas Aquinas – “The highest manifestation of life consists in this: that a being governs its own actions. A thing which is always subject to the direction of another is somewhat of a dead thing.”

  243. martyrathbun09

    If that is your standard, you all definitely are going back in at warp speed.

  244. martyrathbun09

    I’ve observed a lot of indicators of that mentality.

  245. martyrathbun09

    What do justice codes have to do with a science of the mind and knowing how to know?

  246. martyrathbun09

    Thanks Robert.

  247. Joe Pendleton

    Dan, Miscavige may indeed be sleeping well these days, or he may not be. Why should any of us care? His personal victories/losses don’t affect my life in any way. I admit that if he dropped dead tonight, I would be afforded a certain amount of entertainment over the next few years, just to see how it all turns out in Scientology World. But I’m not invested in opposing him or the CoS even. I suspect he will sleep well, get his haircuts, eat his fine food, make his speeches, fly in his jet and in his mid 70s, when the CoS has a handful of members left, some young turks will engage in a power push to get their hands on the moolah and real estate and Dave will end up like Ron, a fairly unhappy old man in a trailer, wondering where all the love has gone.

  248. My bad. There is no worse feeling than setting your children up for a mind fucking loss. One of them had a psychotic break. I wanted to throw myself off a cliff.

    I did a danger formula. We moved on. Got the out tech cleaned up (for another 25K), all things considered.

    If this person EVER threatens to set anyone in my family up for another loss, they will pay to play next time around.

    Otherwise, it’s whole track.

  249. Dan, I’ll just ask you directly — how in the world did that A-J e-meter check get into your group’s requirements of membership? That’s just … mind-boggling to me. I have other issues, but that one stands out like a sore thumb.

  250. martyrathbun09

    And that is not the philosophy of Scientology. In fact, Scientology policy countermands and prohibits its practice. You ever finish my book, by the way.

  251. And while you are here ser facing, op terming, and deddedexing, I am supposed to think less of Marty. As a trained auditor, self discipline can be used to rise above case you become aware of. It is not your religion that makes you a better person, it’s your behavior.

  252. martyrathbun09

    Good point

  253. I know. A high level of ethics and integrity. You would think people could find it refreshing.

  254. I thought Dan Koon edited your book. How do you guys get here from there?

  255. martyrathbun09

    Oh, to answer the question, I don’t have a case. And if you are convinced you do have one after achieving Clear, then you best be asking WTF?

  256. martyrathbun09

    I share virtually all of my thoughts along my path of evolution and research – along with sharing details of my life (good, bad and ugly) nobody connected with Scientology ever has. This is a question you are well equipt to answer for yourself.

  257. martyrathbun09

    Thanks for the eval on the posters. Please respond to the post now.

  258. Marty, seems to me you feel threatened by these 11 wack jobs. If people want to worship? LRH in a structured environment, what is it to you? In my opinion, most scientologists are weak minded people who need to follow somebody, whether its you, the corporate church,or this new bunch. Your all follow the same con man.

  259. Hate to poke through a lot of other beautiful illusion, but consider this. Orgs “survived” barely, with FREE labor and no cost for materials. One can easily establish a company that will survive if you do not have to pay anyone for labor, and you have no cost for materials. Ask yourself this, if Hubbard had to pay staff, rent, electric and all the other costs other companies had to pay, could Scientology Organizations have existed? NO. Do the math. With him in the building, yes. Scientology Organizations have floated on the backs of volunteers.

    You go read the plans for the new group. It goes like this:

    A, We have elected ourselves the ruling class.
    B. Cost is 30.00 per annum.
    C. YOU do the work of making it a success.

    And this is the tradition.

    WHO makes a go of it in Scientology and is successful? The INDIVIDUAL counselor, without the baggage of the “group” and the “Organization”, just like any other therapist.

  260. That’s what I meant by “how the subject evolved” from what it had been – because of policy that prohibits the original writings.

    I haven’t received your book yet because I ordered another book with it that takes 2-3 weeks or so to ship. I’m kicking myself for that because I really am anxious to read it. Anyway, I doubt that you have the viewpoint that it was all an intentional scam by LRH, from the beginning – that would be about the only thing that would truly surprise me. In any case, I will undoubtedly post a comment once I’ve read it.

  261. One of the most difficult steps for a Scientologist – about to become an ex-Scientologist, will take – is the realization that Hubbard may always have had an – underlying – ulterior motive.

    This less then wholesome ulterior motive both motivated him to create Scientology (which contains some positive parts), yet also corrupted those positive parts.

  262. So I have been reading this blog, checking out M2, checking out comments on FB (which really haven’t been all that many) and basically just trying to wrap my head around all of this. Then I saw it. The thing that just rattled my cage. It’s under “Collaboration”. The statement of fact that I know is utter bullshit. “There are hundreds of thousands of people who have had some training or auditing at some time, and thousands of Clears and OTs – no matter whether those people are still on lines at this time.” Here we go again with the false reporting of stats. I was a Reg. That being my hat, I culled the CF and Addresso in DC and Flag for names. That meant for me that I read what was in those files to find out where the person was on the Bridge. I know I didn’t check every CF and Addresso on the planet, but I can almost certainly attest that those numbers come no where near the truth. Does the madness ever end? Does the rabbit ever stop falling down the hole? Does the caterpillar stop smoking the hookah?

  263. Hubbard’s “dark side” is important because he incorporated it into Scientology. He created an alter-ego that survives to this day.

    I do not quote Hubbard when he writes flowery – publicized – statements about such things as personal integrity and freedom, etc.

    IMHO, he was not sincere, but had a larger (not publicized) plan – one that involved the use of such statements to lure and to manipulate. This is a shame, as I do believe that there is some good in Scientology.

    There are many other – sincere – individuals, such as Marty, who have expressed views on integrity, freedom, etc., that I prefer.

    Best of luck, also, with your pursuit of betterment.

  264. Thank you Claudio. You have lifted me from beneath a rubble of frustration.

  265. Ugg… I’ll pass.

  266. Tom Gallagher

    I guess Joann Wheaton and John Allander will be weighing in on Marty’s suppressive-ness shortly.

    It’s weird how cultists join at the hip.

  267. Tom Gallagher


    Honestly, Shorty is irrelevant.

  268. + 1

  269. Tom Gallagher

    Now we have the celebrated kick-off of the Independent Stasi. Ain’t life just grand! Ugh….

  270. And very well said, Les.

  271. No point, good luck to you!

  272. I have not yet heard a complaint from anyone getting auditing in the Independent field about lack of toilet paper being a problem. A very tangible indicator that things are much better out here.

  273. I personally have found a balance between reading LRH, Buddhism (the Tibetan and Indian type), and Zen, but lately I have found the latter to be more workable and informative than LRH used to be for me, but that’s just my own personal truth.

  274. martyrathbun09


  275. Hilarious Warren! I love that guy. Maybe we could get the guy from “My cat from hell” also, to handle the people who excessively mark territory.

  276. Thanks for the explanation. Makes a lot of sense to me!

    I am an agnostic now for the past 2 years. I respect people’s believes as long as they do not cause harm to others and non-believers.

    Back when, I was tempted to join the indies movement but could not call myself a Scientologist. The thought of joining up again even for an independent movement made me feel sick to the stomach. Like others above, I don’t want to be part of any organized religion. I don’t want to be religious anymore.

    I believe to be free of religion is the best state of mind one can be.

  277. Cooper Kessel

    Well said Joe.
    How dare Marty say what is true for him based on what he has observed The unfolding of events as the CO$ shrinks into a nothingness is remarkable!

    “One cannot remain “one of us” and hold different viewpoints or opinions on the sacred scriptures. And so it is with Scientology.”

    And so it is with anyone who favors life in a cult vs independent thinking!

  278. martyrathbun09

    As you probably know Brian, I do not think it is as black and white, or cut and dried, as that. In fact, you view puts Ron as far higher pedastal that many others – including me. To have done all that – that you describe – with aforethought would have taken almost unimaginable intelligence, skill, and magic (even super human). I view L. Ron Hubbard as a far more real person. I hope I made that clear in Memoirs.

  279. martyrathbun09

    On your last question, depends on what’s in the bowl.

  280. martyrathbun09

    Whatever his motives, he left what he left and its been left for 27 years. Time spent attempting to divine his intentions would be far better spend divining one’s own, imho.

  281. martyrathbun09

    Please see my comment to Brian where I addressed this question about intent.

  282. Marty, other than the emails and blog comments you have presented do you have any evidence of any campaign against you by this group, or anything that shows there is a group effort to destroy or harm you?

  283. martyrathbun09

    Jeb, re-read the post, including the link to the welcome page. And then revise your message accordingly. If it doing the drill I gave for you doesn’t result in your message being significantly revised, I am going to suggest you find another forum. This one is about what its title says, moving on up a little higher.

  284. Carcha, it is not that it is misapplied. It is that it exists in the face of the creed. You cannot apply both together. For one side you have a creed that guarantees freedom of religion, and freedom of speech. For the other, you are not allowed to say anything against the church or against LRH. How can you apply both?

    Want another example? You have “Integrity” which says: “what is true is true for you”. Then you have KSW in which LRH tells you if you disagree with him on anything you are not so bright. How do you apply both?

    I believe I can bring you many more examples.

  285. martyrathbun09

    Is that your first response to what you read of my post? If that is all that this post evoked from you, I am not wasting time responding to you any more. My experience and skills would be far better utilized working to help people who have any glimmer of desire or hope of transcending their cult experience.

  286. Nicely put Chuck.

  287. “I don’t plan on spending any more time or mental energy on them. I consider them – at best – a distraction. Its authors and directors have already drained enough of our resources – physical, mental and spiritual.”
    As I said before on this blog: “f–k ’em don’t give any”.

  288. This is equivalent to saying, “Marty is for sale”. “Marty can be bought” “Marty follows the money”. ALL LIES LIES LIES.

  289. Chill out Marty…

  290. We all appreciate acknowledgement and validation. However I no longer need or want nor would accept any organization to validate the level of my dedication, or not, nor the “level” of my spirituality.

    When I get there, I’ll know.

    The individual idiosyncrasies of living through getting there aside, this in my opinion, is a major misdup of what Ron’s purpose was in the beginning. No matter what else, he found a purpose and worked out a remarkable workable tech to help unburden others. That it devolved into Clearing the Planet and saving us from nuclear destruction and various enemies of the mind, while certainly a star high goal that likely only he could have come up with, but that it got so out of his control, well, that’s also on him, but don’t forget the beautiful nature, intent and workability of the Tech we have is also on Ron.

    A beautiful being once told me, to paraphrase from recall, Ron gave us many “deposits” [of gold] with the Tech. No, he was not perfect, no one is and all of us have a dark side, our “evil” within, thus he developed the FPRD for this very reason. Ron had his dark side, make no mistake, dark moments – too heavy on penalties and ethics (overflowing in baskets – heavy ethics… good lord), disconnection, RPF’s RPF, etc., and those were “withdrawals” that he took. He was not perfect. Know and understand the dark side, but you’d be foolish to disregard the deposits.

  291. Robert Troutman

    This answers my question from a previous post. I could not be happier for you and all the people you’ve touched and will touch in the future. From the earliest days of this blog, I sensed you have something far deeper and far broader to offer the world than can be contained in the word “scientology”. I’m enjoying your latest book and looking forward to more.

  292. Thanks so much. I read it and it made a lot of sense – like beyond Ockham’s razor! It’s unimaginable to me too, both in the way that you say (now that you say it) and also because I can’t picture the being who discovered and developed and communicated what he did to have had as his basic motive the creation of a cult. All my “senses” tell me otherwise..

  293. Thanks for your post.
    All this was giving me a stomach ach but I was able to ‘let it go’!

    It’s (MS2) looking like the definition of insanity: Doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Sad.

    This last 30 years is NOT something I want to experience again.
    I’m very happy to see there are a bunch of you that don’t want to either.

    One day when I was 21, I was tired of the drugs and had a kid to raise. I could not change my husband (addict) so I left the marriage and the small town ‘to find where people are happy’. It was for me and so I could help others.

    With-in 16 hours and about 1,600 miles south I found myself listening to an old friend about Scientology. The next day I started TRs & they got me in PT. I had done some 4 years of study of the Veda, Buddha, Carlos S?, Kahlil Gibran. But I could not ‘Be Here Now’ until the TRs. Amazing! With-out a thought I sold everything and up and joined the SO. It was the only thing to do. But how to stay in PT – Taking away my family/PRF/screaming/KRs etc. was not in my bullbaiting but I remained because I knew I was a ‘good guy’ and if all the ‘good guys’ left where would that leave LRH? In the end, I trusted someone else to do thinking/evaluating for me – I got lazy and stopped discovering life for myself. In the beginning I don’t think LRH planned on that happening to his ‘followers’ but then again maybe he did. One must look at the products produced when evaluating a situation. Slowly I’ve seen the trap it became and where I went and what I agreed to regardless of the original stated intentions.

    Removing False Data and new education has un-wound me from that pole and I NEVER want to go there again. Now I am studying everyday and having wins because I am learning and getting smarter. 🙂
    I even figured how to improve my self and get out of the ‘must have auditing’ trap. [SOS 4 valid therapies]
    Thank you for your care.

    PS Does anyone have a copy of the short 1/2 page Flag Order ‘AOs Purpose’.

  294. Now that is very telling.

  295. Grasshopper (Mark P)

    By the way, Marty, the first submission about “Cover” is all it took. WTF! I’m laissez faire about all this, and freeing one’s mind and being true to yourself is a win-win scenario. There just isn’t a single right answer, and there is no benefit to anyone to enforce anything anyway. This scene is unfortunate, and I am with you in hoping tolerance and respect win out in the end.

  296. stateofcircle

    They (CoS) probably wasted all of the TP wiping the bullshit off of their mouths.

  297. Thank you Marty. Spending most of my time on helping with “Keeping Scientology Working”, Point 1: “Having the correct technology”, I am not following your remarkable evolution closely enough, but I do get the news from time to time and admire it from the distance. – May I remind you and all your friends of the fact that the part of the case that LRH considered its “core” is still unhandled for all Scientologists who “completed” the standard bridge. It is the “actual (own) GPMs” part of the case. Fights and endless games conditions are the direct result of unhandled GPMs in full restimulation. The tech for handling GPMs has been completed by the Class VIII auditor “Clearbird”. It is the key to the “end of endless games conditions” – see .

  298. martyrathbun09

    That is as far you get in my living room boy. That you want to try to put me on the defensive and interrogate me from a superior, more righteous point of view – without lifting a finger to inquire of and do something about the indignity that has been visited upon my wife as reported upon in this post – tells me all I need to know about your character. Have fun with MS2 – clearly, your kind of Klub.

  299. IMO Marty gave more to all of us on this blog in a short few year span toward clarity and understanding of where S, Inc. and Miscavology stands than any other, ever, period.

    To attack Marty, as though he is some off-purpose defrocked squirrel apostate is like, well……… you know what that sounds remarkably like.

  300. I was waiting for the coming out…………………… of the woodwork.

  301. The Associate Members start out in Liability, as it were.
    At least they don’t have to do the EPF first (not yet anyway).

  302. Chris why do you associate MS2 with radicals? Do you know me? do you think the only thing I would do in life is blindly follow Scientology and that’s it?

    Then I am impressed on so many people here not really giving a damn about the 4th Dynamic and just wanting to carry on with their lives. It’s their right, true. But to start calling others radicals because they want to do something about it, is really disappointing.

  303. “It is not your religion that makes you a better person, it’s your behavior.” Succinct as ever TO

  304. The Oracle, thank you for the response. Finally a person commenting no my post here. It’s a bit frustrating to be trying to do something with some good intention and find yourself NOT ISED… but we do know the two “crimes” in this universe.

    The Oracle, first of all I know of the Freezone from 1998 and got audited by Max Hauri a key terminal now in the Freezone. My write up about the Sea Org is on the Freezone site. And I know of the value of auditing.

    But it looks like LRH would be a skeleton in a chair if he just audited. Don’t you think?

    So, I am rather careful to call people “radical” or this and that when all they try to do is help their dynamics. And you can’t help too many by sitting even 24/7 in an auditing chair. LRH understood that.

    The fact that DM can smash people’s mind and destroy their viewpoint about Scientology and policy of Scientology does not mean that policy is bad.

    Everything can be a distraction from the main basic thing, which is Auditing and freeing people if the machine, one little part of it, is out of order. And in the case of the church the whole machine was set up by Miscavige to “free people” and take money and control minds and lives. This is not Scientology and it looks like Marty (evidently now because he is attacking and speaking badly of people who helped him a lot) has had his share of this.

    I am sorry admin and policy got such a bad name. But in the hands of Homo Sap you can expect anything.

  305. one of those who see

    I found reading MS2 a defining moment for me . My reaction was clarifying for me – I had back off, feeling like NO, i don’t want this. I’ve been out of the church for several years now. I have gotten auditing in the Indie field and will continue. I still want to follow the path Ron taped to OT. But I will not be joining MS2.
    In the Scientology that is outside the actual tech, I think Ron had his emphasis wrong. Much of the Eastern wisdom is there in his writings, but the emphasis on the importance of those jewels is not there. I am going to put together some examples and post again on this-when appropriate- because I think it is important. We could have really been operating exterior to the scene on this planet- one way is “Letting Go.” Marty wrote on this and I have been reading about this as well.
    The bank tends to create complexities. Truth tends to be simple. Ron brought a step by step method to the goals of Eastern Wisdom. Wonderful. And it seemed like a natural progression to me. But maybe that is all he had to do and other additives screwed things up. I think this is the direction I am going in. Continuing on the Scientology Bridge in the Indie Field and learning the Eastern Wisdom- and as I said, much of it is there in his writings. Present time, Letting go of Must Have/Can’t Have, What is true for you…
    So, it does seem from reading here at Marty’s Place that I am on a similar road.
    It is pretty horrible to be called names and be accused of evil when your intentions are pure and you are just speaking your truth. You and Mosey have had to stand up to so much of this from so many directions. You both have been so courageous and strong. I hope you see that though some in their intolerance have turned away from you, so many are your friends. Thank you for all you do! A personal thank you for being there for me through your blog. The benefits have been and are still immeasurable.

  306. The Oracle, orgs and independent auditors are two different activities. It does not mean either one is good or bad. They can be both bad or good. The thing is does one get some results and by results I don’t mean “DM type of results”.

    And yes there are beings who (pardon me) deserve to be served a bit better than others. No one can do their HAT, so in that, they are valuable.

    Marty made the mistake (and it was his intention from the beginning since he is not for luxuries and big titles) to ignore the basic purpose and intention of the majority of Independents. He coined the term and then decided he would be independent of the Independents. Then he started philosophising about Scientology, it’s pros and cons, which is good, because we could openly talk for the first time from some saner viewpoints. But the basic purpose of a person who is into some philosophy the type of Scientology, since he or she (supposedly) is aware of the dynamics is to help those dynamics. The higher one is the more of those dynamics he wants to serve. I am sorry, I feel this is true even for the last sentient being on planet Earth.

    So, it’s one thing to want to be a writer and an independent practicioner and it’s another one to attack those who want to form groups in a more organised way and have some broader scope of activity.

    If I had to wait for Greek auditors to audit here perhaps I would have to wait for many years. Obviously we are not like the Italians or the Hebrews. That I want to unite with the Italians or the Hebrews who are close to us here and have some ties with them, even through a main organisation, gives me some hope for me, my friends and my children that everything is not lost. In America one might be audited by anyone. But consider other people elsewhere too. It’s not the same for them.

    So orgs play another role and they are not bad. And yes there are people who work daily for others and those others don’t even know and wouldn’t even care. So why have the all equal? Now if those people higher in the hierarchy want to repeat the same mistakes others high on an org board did, that is another thing. They are gonna have the repercussions of their actions.

    If you call on this illusion I better dream than seeing the pathetic reality of one speaking against others and vice versa. “Thoughtfulness and courtesy make elbows rub better”.

  307. Thank you and Amen to that.

  308. You’ve got heart Les.

  309. phil pipieri

    Well said! No one has a monopoly on truth, and what’s good for you today may no longer be your answer when you’ve changed tomorrow!

  310. Tech dictionary:

    CASE, the whole sum of past by-passed charge. (HCOB 19 Aug

    That looks like a very absolute definition. If I were to take this literally – which I am – then this would mean any, AND I MEAN ANY BYPASSED CHARGE AT ALL!

    So Norbert, just enlighten me here for a sec, how do you split something analog like this into levels? But before you answer, think about the fact that all who enter SC don’t do so on the same terms. In other words we aren’t all the same. Two people who completed Grade I aren’t the same. Remember what LRH said: “A clear cannibal is still a cannibal”.

    If you were to ask “what have you completed on the bridge” that might at least be a sensible question but even then the Grades and OT levels don’t result in some uniform state of beingness. I hate to be the one to break this to you but some people get more out of the “levels” than others. SC isn’t some make us all into unity understanding beings. What you bring to the table (or auditing room) makes a difference.

    Please consider pondering on your question a bit.

  311. phil pipieri

    1. It’s really refreshing to see to see so many people be freeing themselves of the chains…and supporting the idea without more ties (to go back in)!
    2. Indy groups: I’ll quote Werner Erhard “”Insanity; Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results”
    Someone who is a librarian of this stuff will be able to give the full quote but in essence here’s the gist of the following-There were some lectures in the early 50’s, it may have been the Phila. Doc Course of the Foundation Lectures where at the very end Hubbard said:(Paraphrased) The EP of Scientology is YOU DON”T NEED IT ANYMORE. Once you’re OT and realize this is all your creation you can take off and create whatever you want, though you might find it a rough go in this society where they fear OT’s and will want to attack them. You’ll probably do better with other OT’s.”

    3. Something smells terribly fishy about rounding up all the people who want to keep KSW and make the “New” movement. Divide a group enough times and you’ll be able to sway a lot of them to be granted Amnesty. You know this is on Co$ agenda, so you gotta ack there will ALWAYS be some of their plants working at making this happen within those groups.

    4. You are a unique individual on YOUR path; follow it, and you will get to where you need to go. I went to grammar school, high school, college, scientology, certain Eastern meditation, and, yes Landmark- and use some of the knowledge from each- without crediting them or having any need to pay a license to them for having insights. I no longer even try any controlling path which says “it is the ONLY one, no one else is capable of getting us out without it, and you can’t do anything else”

    5. Personal observation on some of these comments: brilliant ! In $cn I learned to refine my intention and obsess on “controlling” people and the universe. When I got out, I slowly learned the lesson of tuning into the power of nature, of simple mindfulness and that of actually perceiving and appreciating what life has given me as a result of my wishes. A book titled “Seat of the Soul” explains this so well: You have the ability to row your boat anywhere you want, even against the flow and against the waves. But, if you follow the flow, like behind a big cruiseliner, not only will your efforts be easier, you will also be going with the flow of nature and get pulled along!” So, you can FORCE it to go right, but ultimately, the moment you take your attention off it, Nature will have it’s way and take you to where you should be going, anyway!

    I love and respect all of you beings working so heart-fully on your path. Especially, since you have to overcome the affliction of others who would willfully block you with mis-guided intentions to save you.

    Onward and upward- follow your heart!

  312. morelivesthanacat

    Gosh Mike. Now they’ll probably take your blog link off their site.
    All I can say is this is the first I heard of all this. Went to their glossy site, tracked down the announcement of who the “11” are, saw I could “buy a T shirt”, or “Donate” and thought, “Here we go again.”

  313. Old Secretary

    I find few things more annoying than a person such as chrismann9 who has the obvious mental faculties to process information quickly and respond, but who chooses to act retarded and persist in a narrow minded point of view. I am amazed you ever answered any of his nonsense and attacks and have entertained him on this blog for so long. I will chalk it up to charity. Some folks donate clothes, some volunteer to cook, some answer chrismann9’s questions. You would be better off cleaning out your closet.

  314. phil pipieri

    Just a note on Landmark. After years of avoiding ANYTHING mind control related, a biz friend so enthusiastically recommended Landmark that I finally gave in and did their initial weekend course at a cost of $500. I did not know it was a re-formatted EST course. I was thoroughly absorbed in their approach to having you dig into your case and then participating in a group share. I’ve done all of the tech courses and most admin in Scn, and Of the 35 hours in this course only 2 hours had anything from $cn, “Brackets”, a concept Very similar to Serv Fac’s. The seminar was loaded with fruitful questions, digging, and cogs. The downside for me was I’d be miles ahead of the group because of thousands of hours of prior experience. The other not-so-painful thing was they spent a good 10% of the time egging-us on to share what we just got with friends an get them to do the course, but that’s as far as they took it. They’d never call you to do another course unless you requested a reminder.
    I did at least 4 more 6 week courses each of which cost $200 and ranged in subject matter from neuron-synaptic response to will vs diversion. None of these had anything related to $cn in it.
    There was a widespread dedication amongst the (profit-sharing) staff to help people and to dedicate their lives to doing this (Heard this anywhere before?) though NO ONE enforced it having to be that way. Some of the old-timers were hardcore lifers, just like in $cn. I found it amusing at the end of a course one of the participants stated to the group ” I had my reservations at first, but even though there’s a little taste of cult here, you don’t take it too far and really allow people their freedom to enjoy it.” The group that took over from the old organization were operating on a biz model which fully responded to customer feedback, something the renamed $cn off-shoots could learn from if they really care to help folks.I did what I wanted and left. That was two years ago, And, no one has bugged me one bit.

  315. Tony, I think you have given a real external explanation of the scene. Sometimes people just get too introverted into their own situation to simpler solutions. I think this ties nicely in with Marty’s post.

    I think I remember somewhere where LRH talks about, “Above all, maintain ARC.”

    LRH was a man of real life and rubbed shoulders with all sorts and did quite well despite differences.

    It seems that a group of people who have the tools of ARCU should be able to use them to preserve the tech he developed. Allowing this situation to flow over into the public arena has only caused an ARCX., especially since it involves people that have through their actions become the opinion leaders for those leaving the church. Sure, we’ll get over it…but is was unnecessary. I do hope that there is some future public resolve which demonstrates one of LRHs greatest tools…ARC!

  316. What I am thinking, is if these people are so “K.S.W.”, why didn’t they do a NON E and ASK what is WANTED and NEEDED instead of telling everyone what THEY WANT and NEED? And how it is going to be? And they are in charge of ethics and justice? They can’t even think with or apply the formulas? Where is the NON E? Nobody asked what was wanted and needed. They only laid down the new law. Good luck with that oh holy ruling class.

    Marty and his wife went through four fucking years of what was wanted and needed, a little TRUTH! And here they come offering up A to J checks? Good luck folks. You are making a few people happy. Let us know who arrived for A to J’s. This is REAL “K.S.W.” no standard NON E? Start out in POWER? Good luck with that!

  317. The editing is heavy. All challenges to reason are blocked. Only praise passed on. I have received tons of posts that were blocked. They just disregard any inconvenient truth.

  318. A thinking person, blow me down! Thank you for some straight up reasoning.

  319. Thank you for a decent purpose. XXOO You will be O.K..

  320. Thanks, but I already know my own motives.

  321. I don’t think it’s black and white either, or cut and dried, but Hubbard, while very much a human being, was an unusual human being.

  322. Cece,

    You: It’s (MS2) looking like the definition of insanity: Doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Sad.

    That is not the definition of insanity. That is an example of insanity.

    Remember: any datum is only as good as it has been evaluated.

    Evaluate everything.

    You should do a word clearing on the word insanity. Just simply to a on line search for the def of the word insanity and read up on at least 4 or 5 definitions from different dictionary sites and blogs on the word “insanity”.

    Those words, like one blogger said: : “Insanity is :Doing the same thing and expecting a different result.” is one of the dumbest things ever said by an intelligent person.


  323. Dirk Niblick

    With respect, Dorothy, the “common enemy” is NOT DM.

    The “common enemy” at this blog has always been ignorance, exploitation, and cult-like thinking. In this post, I feel Marty is trying to uphold that purpose.

    If you mock up DM as the cause of all that is wrong, I feel you are really missing the boat.

  324. Dear Dio

    You write as if we have met, or is it that we are kindred spirits. With your friendly nun I may not have done any better than you did. One approach that usually works is to show an interest in the other person, which is very easy if as a Scientologist we have had the cognition that we are interested in everything.

    The Sisters of Bethany have a house near us and we used to visit regularly, and there was one ‘sister’ who was very “with it” who I got on very well with. One day when leaving I gave her a kiss on the cheek goodbye and said “I hope you didn’t mind” to which she replied “No! so long as you don’t get into the habit”. It is good to see religion and humour don’t have to be mutually exclusive.

    It warms my heart to hear the words Scientology and Christianity used together, only I prefer to write them as one word; just as LOVE and UNDERSTADING have no beginning and no end and one is the expression of the other, so it is with ChristianScientology. Ron, bless him, did not have a personal relationship with Jesus, and without that the best we can do is to acknowledge the existence of God. To know God is to know ourselves, and to know ourselves is to know our true essence THETA.

    Scientology defines itself as a religion of religions because it recognises that all religions are based on belief and all belief is rooted in our past experience. Changing the viewpoint of the past will automatically change the belief system, but as I have said, Jesus did not come to start a new religion, but to restore a broken relationship, first between me and God which then heals my relationship with myself which inevitably brings about a healed relationship between me and my fellow man and ultimately with all of creation.

    Your friend was obviously a “bible believing Christian” to have said it is impossible “to become a better Christian”. They use the analogy that you cannot be partly pregnant you either are or you are not. The idea that being “saved” is a gift and there is nothing you can do to earn it, you are either “saved or unsaved”, no half measures.

    Fancy him getting involved with Landmark. I have known one or two friends who are Christian and have done the same, which only goes to show it’s the name Scientology that scares them senseless.

    I see from your other post that you are into the Urantia papers. I am a student of A Course in Miracles which as I expect you know, is the same teaching as the Urantia papers. I came across The Course through a friend, Terry Knight, who had been a Scientologist, that was some 15 years ago.

    I see Christopher Joseph Barnes is also into this same material. The underlying harmony in all these viewpoints really inspires me.

  325. Hi Christopher

    Fancy you being into the Urantia material and also Scientology. I have studied the Course in Miracles for the past 15 years (off and on). Are you in the U.K? I live in Portsmouth and am keen to meet up with other people who embrace metaphysics and also Scientology. I was born into a Christian Science family so the whole NEW THOUGHT MOVEMENT feels very natural to me. Christian Science and Scientology have so much in common, it is a great shame neither can embrace the other’s point of view.

    Organizationally they could learn from each other, both Mary Baker Eddy and L. Ron Hubbard founded a worldwide church in their own lifetime, which started to disintegrate at their deaths.

  326. martyrathbun09

    The inaccuracy and absurdity of your misevaluations of me, my actions and intentions are spelled out in the post itself. If you had read it, including the link to the Welcome page (which has been there from the beginning) you wouldn’t make such inane evaluations. Read the Welcome page on this blog please and cease mischaracterizing me, my actions and intentions here. This forum is about truth. Go elsewhere to propagandize.

  327. martyrathbun09

    You are becoming that which you insist upon continuing to resist.

  328. Ditto that! If I never again read of Chris Mann’s “on the one hand, on the other hand” ditherings, it wouldn’t be too soon.

  329. Hi Phil. Just wanted to say that you managed to express my own journey beautifully and I find it fascinating that others have traveled a similar route and come to the same conclusions in life that I have. I reject nothing and take everything on board as a guide to where the river is flowing and how I need to trim my sails to better harness the forces of nature. I don’t comment much here because I tended to find my reality for others in the group slipping away but on this post, and with your latest comment, I find that in many cases, the reality of others isn’t so different from my own after all.
    Boy. That was a wordy post from someone who has gotten into the habit of being quiet 🙂

  330. I joined a few that would have me as a member. I ended up not liking the people these clubs would admit.

  331. Jean-François Genest

    Oui ! Yes !
    It makes perfect sense. In the ©hurch, this kind of activity and attitude started as a grain of sand pasted to a snowflake, and gradually rolled to a snow ball the size of the moon.

  332. Come on, haven’t you seen the blog posts on ESMB, the comments in Ortega’s blog. This is annoying.

  333. Wow! I got acked 🙂
    Love you guys XXOO

  334. Cooper Kessel

    Well stated Phil.

    Regarding the quote above:
    “”Insanity; Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results”
    I think Werner is actually quoting (or should be) it’s original author who was Einstein.

  335. Jean-François Genest

    Nice comment!
    I also particularly share your statement/thought excerpted here:
    → ” I had many gains from Scientology and I appreciate LRH for those. But I also had missing and wrong data. I am able to see the outpoints for what they are, without explaining them away now.”
    Thank you for pointing it out. Best wishes!

  336. Cooper Kessel

    I just finished your new book. Very well done in presenting your experiences telling your story. It is a story very worth telling.
    I realized that I held a belief that Miscaviage had altered what LRH really intended and that that was the reason why things went off the rails. I really appreciate knowing that he was actually in his own mind trying to do what he thought best for LRH and Scn. And I am happy to discard that belief!

    I especially enjoyed reading the epilogue. I think your book will contribute in no small way to help people with a new course of action. As Pai-chaing noted ‘….one that is different than before’.

    I will raise my glass to a toast to that concept. I hope to meet you and Mosey one day. Meanwhile, thanks for carrying on with a different course which is a bit higher than before!

  337. Joe Pendleton

    Phil, a number of people might note this, but it was Albert Einstein who made that famous statement about insanity (he preceded Erhard as a great thinker).

    Re: the Milestone 2. Fine with me that those folks form the group that suits them. It is inevitable with any religion that groups with different points of view will splinter off and do their thing, as we used to say. The CoS is proclaiming in their most recent broadside that TOTALLY exciting times are afoot and boom times are here (absolutely amazes me that Miscavige stood in front of his public and proclaimed that training has been totally fucked for the past 20 years – HIS programs! – but it is all solved and beautiful now – and they cheered and cheered – these folks would buy snow if they were living in Alaska) …. but I do not doubt for a moment that many people are very happy in the CoS, and are indeed completely jazzed by all the new doings …. my message to them “knock yourselves out, have a great time.”

    I am all for a diversity of choices in all areas of life. My only desire re: the CoS is that I think there should be enough data available for people who are considering getting into the CoS that they know what is coming, so that when the extortion starts, the punishment, bankruptcy, disconnection, children into the SO, etc etc etc they will have had the info they needed to ultimately take full responsibility for their choices. And of course I think this information should also be available for any current members who wish to know it.

  338. Well said! For the tin soldiers goose step is the only way to walk.

  339. What group membership and what does Dan have to do with it? I feel like I am reading a private joke string. I don’t get it.

  340. Gerhard Waterkamp

    There is a simple test. You continue put an indisputable observable fact that is contrary to believe in front of the true believer. The true believer has always a choice to deal with this ‘paradox’. To ‘solve’ the problem they often elect to shoot the messenger.
    So when I pointed out a paradox to the managing director of MS2, being persistent in pointing out the obvious it did not take long being labeled one of those that demonstrated the need for A-J checks. Bang, dead, problem solved.
    I believe too, that the MS2 founders try to be the very best Scientologists they can, the tragedy is, that they have really not gained even close enough understanding about themselves and the situation they are in to be able to have any success with it.

  341. Jean-François Genest

    I doubt that “the delusional cheerleaders” actually go and receive services from Milestone 2 membership. They are second-hander bystanders chanting praises behind the shields of cyberspace.

  342. Cotch, if you are still following this blog, I’d like to say that I would totally accept your and any other pro-KSW views as valuable except per my direct observation the KSW zealots are those who refuse to look for themselves. They let LRH do their looking. Not looking for oneself violates the very foundation of Scientology and is a sensitive and confusing point in Scientology. How do you know that what true for you is really true unless you look, try and compare and see for yourself? If you embarked on an honest journey of finding the truth, you’d most likely relegate Scientology into the corner of your toolbox. Why? Because you’d find that Scientology to be just a useful tool and that has its place in the overall scheme of things but it is deeply flawed, not all harmless, not all honest and not all needed and could also be done without all together as countless of generations of people before LRH could attest. Thats what you’d probably find if you looked. But it is easier to strenuously avoid looking and just grabbing on to your straw idol and blaming those who do look. So on those grounds of you violating the basic notion of Scientology of what is true I immediately dismiss anything you say until I am proven wrong by your factual account of where you looked and what you found.

  343. Well, deeply insane people do seem to be always engaged in the same stuck activity, like laying there motionlessly, peeling ceramic tiles off the wall with their fingers, rocking back and forth, mumbling the same thing over and over for hours, knocking their head on the floor prostrate in front of an e-meter, things like that.

  344. Jean-François Genest

    This blog post has such a fitting title! Not back IN for sure. Thank you for exposing the facts, truth, and information of the new HO …
    [Hypocrite Organization] and its founding members. When going along a road, warning signs [ ⌠⌡ ] are helpful in pointing out the potholes on might encounter.

    Θ The healing continues. For years I have been under the impression that because I use Scientology and Dianetics knowledge, info, procedures, etc. that I *m u s t* consequently label myself a Scientologist, with a differentiating adjective next to it, whether it be Original, Integral, Independent, etc. After watching the UK Channel 4 video, and reading this blog post, it makes total sense to drop the Scientologist qualifying label altogether. Bye-Bye Label !

    P.S. I am SO TREMENDOUSLY impressed by Monique, who stuck with you and supported you throughout the whole vicious ordeals you both went through, despite NOT having any Scientology affiliation at all prior to knowing you. And she is still there! Amazing! Most normal human beings would have left FAST!. Her level of understanding and perseverance are BEYOND normal. I applaud !

  345. Hi Pip,

    I ack your reply to mine.

    A couple of comments to yours;

    First: about getting along.

    The truth is many people cannot get along with themselves. And if you can’t get along with your self, you won’t be able to get along with with anyone else.

    Second: I have also read the Course in Miracles (CIM) a couple of times back in the 80s, 11 yrs before scn. I do not see any similarity between it and Urantia. And the CIM did not solve my trauma problems. At that time I was trying everything I came across. And nothing worked until I got auditing.

    What I do find similar to Urantia is the:

    I just glanced at the Al Daoud book page:

    All I can say, is I wish I could speed read or photo read.
    Because my reading is so slow. I would love to read them all. I recently met a guy that could read so fast, he would stand in the book store and make it look like he was just flipping pages , looking over the book, but he was actually reading it. And read a book in half an hour.


  346. [snip]
    mailing list for the entire western hemisphere. At the end of 1983,
    $cientology only had 250,000 names on its mailing list. Approximately
    180,000 of the 250,000 “identities” (as we called them) were for
    people who had either:
    1) bought a book, or (tabbed “BB” for book buyer)
    2) done a basic or introductory course at one time or another (tabbed “BAS”).

    Approximately 25,000 of the 250,000 “identities” were tabbed as either:
    1) “UNK” (address unknown)
    2) “DF” (deadfiled)
    3) “ASK” (asked off the mailing list)
    4) “X” (dropped the body, or deceased)
    5) “PTS” (potential trouble source)
    6) “L” (legal threat)
    7) “SP” (suppressive person)

    The active membership was called the “T&P list”, meaning “trained
    and/or processed”. The “T&P list” consisted of approximately 45,000
    names. This number represented the actual membership for the western

    Warrior [aka Mark Plummer]

  347. The concept of people starting out at different levels of spiritual “advancement” was mentioned by LRH as early as 1951 in SOS, chapter “Ability to Handle Responsibility”, in which he was describing a fully responsible individual in relation to his various dynamics. When he got to the 7th dynamic (theta) he wrote just one sentence but it was significant:
    “He may or may not have some consideration in the direction of theta, this depending upon his own advancement.”

    “…depending upon his own advancement”. To me, that says that the level of spiritual advancement a person is already at when he begins in Scientology determines how much he gets out of each level on the Bridge and even how high (spiritually) auditing will take him by the time he has finished the whole Bridge. In other words, he may already have made some advancement as a thetan this lifetime – before Scn or in earlier lifetimes – and thus starts out at a relatively higher level.

    That’s the beauty of the tech, to my understanding of it – i.e. it relates to anybody at their own level and brings them up from that point. In that context, what Marty is saying about “integration, evolution and transcendence” makes even more sense.

    Another relevant factor is described in the chapter on “Secondary Engrams”:

    “The amount of free theta with which an individual is endowed is enormously important. The amount of free theta has a great deal to do with the persistence or reasoning force of the individual along any course. This would be the volume of a person. The quality of a person would be more a structural thing. To make this clearer, a person may have an enormous volume of endowed theta, and yet not have the structure with which to be intelligent. Or he may have a quality index which is very high and yet not have sufficient endowment of theta to execute the plans which he can conceive… Aberration, considered as pitch or tone, is theoretically independent of quality (structure, probably) and volume (theta endowment). The factors of quality and volume would account in part for the individual differences which may be found in aberrated persons at similar levels of the tone scale.”

    So besides “pitch” (tone level), there is volume and quality. Interesting, isn’t it!

  348. Phil, I only did an introductory meeting with Landmark. But they were more hard sell than scn. That was in Toronto.

    Some one just took me there as a guest. After the intro I figured I had more with fz scn. That was about 10 yrs ago.


  349. Michael,

    You misunderstood me.

    Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is an example of insanity.

    That means it is not the definition of insanity.

    Your example is called compulsive behavior.

    Which is a form of insanity.

    Or aberration.

    Do a def search on insanity. There is lots on it.


  350. After reading again the “constitution” of m2, I felt I need to respond to them. Here is what I posted there. I doubt they will ever publish it:

    I am very distressed in reading this. I think your organization is leading in the wrong direction even before it started. I know some of the people on the list and I am disappointed.

    1. Two tiered membership – you are trying to form an elite group.
    2. Not to disparage – what happened to Freedom of Speech? What happened to the Creed?
    3. Justice Committee – you have got to be kidding me. Really? Have you read “Ethics, Justice, and the Dynamics”? Are you moralists?

    Please count me out.

  351. There are many paths up the mountain. The only folks who fail to achieve the summit are those running in circles telling others they are wrong.

  352. p.s. What I meant by “In that context, what Marty is saying about “integration, evolution and transcendence” makes even more sense” is that the Bridge may not be the end of the journey for many. if not all, who’ve done it.

  353. Great post.

    I too have seen the eastern philosophy ideas in the principles Scientology that underlie the tech. And I don’t see why it matters one whit whether LRH discovered those truths by primary or secondary research.

    I guess the current debate comes down to – was and is it necessary to organize in order for the wisdom and tech of Scientology to come into the reach of most if not all people? LRH himself said truth can’t be stopped, so I guess that means it would have – and still will – spread by word of mouth alone.

  354. martyrathbun09

    Please, this has become petty.

  355. Renata Lugli

    I want to say to you Marty that when I read what the “11” wrote about you I almost puked. For what I know and from my experience you do not deserve those words and that heavy attack. That words were full of hatred and this makes me very suspicious that there is behind it a big job by those that can benefit from this quarrel …. and they are the correct target to attack not you. Because you see, even if someone is not in agreement with you, he should not shoot you a barrage of fire – he can decrease the ARC he has for you but not those words .. please!
    Even I have not always been in agreement with what you say, for that reason I do not diminish or erase your worth, the worth you demonstrated in this very long and hard four years – from the Truth RD on, also for having shielded all of us from their bullets.
    And I think I can understand very well how you can feel, because I felt a similar thing and I know how bad it is and how much it hurts to be stubbed in the back from someone you consider a friend.
    I personally owe it you if I went back to audit after more than 20 years and if now with Claudio we have about 40 PCs or Pre-OT that can have or achieved a better life and also made it possible for us to rehabilitate our goal and go back to work toward that goal – and all of this helps me to face better the loss of m son Flavio that has disconnected from me for more than 2 years now.
    And also absurdly, if in the future, I will find myself to disagree totally with hat you think or do, this will never diminish the admiration that I feel for you Marty, because let me tell you, you wrote a piece of history,and more importantly a beautyfull pice of it.

  356. Congratulations. I came to that conclusion bout two years ago. I saw other solutions which has been rejected on this blog. The brainwash has been heavy and it takes years to get to this step. It took me close to ten years to get to it and bashing my head to get the FZ to see a simple truth which they often rejected. I saw they could not understand the basic concept of exchange by dynamics. The person that came up with that concept and gave it to LRH is my friend and she sees how it is used in regards to the Resource Based Economy.

    I figured out what You figured out about people sticking to the name Scientologist.

    By the way My name is Barbara and it is not Scientologist. I am me and not any brand name. I am for the resource based economy but I am not those groups as well. I am for ideas not groups.

  357. Dan is one of the 11 founders of MS2.

  358. He is part of a new group forming up. He is one of the 11 key people involved in it. You can look at it on blog.

  359. Jethro Bodine

    Words of wisdom, Lloyd, words of wisdom. The way out is the way out.

  360. Sapere Aude

    marildi – “the Bridge may not be the end of the journey for man, if not all, who have done it.”

    Me thinks the Bridge would never be the end of the journey. Once you have crossed from point A to point B you have merely arrived at a new point of reference, a new point of enlightenment, etc. Crossing the “Bridge” is but one part of the journey.

    It is the overall journey wherein you seek and wish to have more understanding that is the key. The journey is the major item to be traveling – not the destination. Thus, not the label or name of any level of attainment. If you walk across a bridge you are simply on the other side. You still have someplace to go to, to see for, or merely to wander and enjoy the scene.

    Just as in art – the beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And, therefore, what we “see” on the other side will be a unique experience for each of us. What we continue to “see” once on the other side is dependent on what we are willing to view, to look upon, and to ponder. We will only know once we “look” without blinders and observe for ourselves.

  361. Dirk Niblick

    Your post demonstrates why people might object to this M2 group and its requirements. It is woefully audacious to say “Scientology works.” I doubt you actually have observed enough to say this fairly with such certainty. The fact that you think you actually know… not believe, know… is what alarms people.

    Please also note that to call everyone here “below 2.0” and then try to add positive spin at the end of your comment… that’s a pattern of passive aggressive comm that is extremely common in the church. Respectfully, people see through that and aren’t likely to appreciate it.

  362. Great post!

  363. So Marty I will read the Welcome page though I guess it’s not just the welcome page you are manifesting here for a long time now. Who is propagandizing? Is it only you who can call the shots?

    You obviously don’t “believe” in any Admin, no organising, nada. You made that clear long time ago. That does not mean though that you have correctly evaluated the whole scene. We don’t have to agree on this admin thing or organising. Each person has the right to see things the way they want. That does not mean that auditing is the only way to help people otherwise LRH would have sat in a chair all of his life. Life is lived in many other areas too, a thing a lot of ex Scientologists tend to neglect. E.g. there is a dwindling spiral across the planet. I hope I am not propagandizing again…. Many situations are not going to be handled just by individuals. I always “believed” in 3Ds. That you make me seem like absurd or inaccurate is your problem Marty. When you come up to see your 3rd and 4th dynamics and not constantly invalidate or evaluate for them we talk again.

  364. I think today I understood something about decompression and cult think. I am still connected to cult think and decompression still not done since 20 years off line. After a quick look at it today I think I fear to disconnect not to loose abilities gained.

  365. When you get audited by an independent, such earthly things as toilette paper become immaterial.

  366. CommunicatorIC
  367. Strangest thing to me is I don’t get what Milestone 2 actually is, or is even supposed to be. What is this? A web page? A group agreement? A monitoring membership you can pay to become? A central non-profit organization based in Australia for what real purpose, to centralize what, a bunch of rogue protestants? Good luck with that. I’ve been trying to put my wits around this for the past several days and am still at a loss.

  368. I did look at the site and the apparent focus of their processes is the many identities within a person. Reminded me of the 4th Way system of George Gurdgieff from the early part of the last century. I would suspect that LRH was a student or at least a reader of the mans work.

  369. I don’t think many are going to take the new MS2 group too seriously. My experience in posting to the initial list was that the moderator lacked basic communication skills.
    I peeked in and they seem to have less members at $30 a go than the council of 11.
    I see Marty answers many with recommendations to read his book. I’d be happy to read what he has to say but have no interest in paying for it.
    Marty can pay me for contributing to his blog at $10 a post and when i have covered the cost of his book then he gets to send me a copy. Fair deal?

  370. Groups and tribes can be healthy and serve a good purpose. I agree. But one doesn’t HAVE to have a group to think with Scientology, use it and disseminate it. Ask yourself, what is the PURPOSE of a church?

    What is the PURPOSE of Church?

    To translate! YOU were on PURPOSE with the PURPOSE of a Church.

    In the olden day, people could not read or obtain books. So the preacher, who could read and was usually taught to read by a Church, and who was provided with a Bible, would be sent out to a “meet up” building called a “Church”. Where he usually lived as well and provided service to the community.

    There, he could read to the people, translate the Bible to people, and educate them about social intercourse. It was basically, the Bible, stories of social studies, magic and the supernatural.

    The Bible was written by many people, and it was supposed to be a solution to a problem. Most of those problems are addressed in the Bible and having to do with unhealthy social intercourse.

    There are Churches today for sale coast to coast in America. Why?

    Most people can read for themselves. They don’t need someone to read to them or translate for them. There were Bibles in motel/hotel rooms from coast to coast here for over four decades. There is no more scarcity.

    The same is true for Scientology today. The materials are available for anyone to read on the net.

    The group had ALREADY PROVIDED for everyone, the knowledge, (Thanks in no small part to you and your efforts).

    So what do you need? An auditor.

    The reason you will find tribes in Israel and Italy that are healthy and functioning, is because in these cultures they LIFT OTHERS UP and are not compelled to domination and taxation as a rule.

    At one time the president of Italy dies and more than six months passed before a new one was put in his place. The people are self governing. In Israel the people are self governing and they, as a culture, are hugely generous towards others and are natural care takers.

    XXOO T.O.

  371. Heidrun – You will get results for a while with people who quickied OT2.
    If you study LRH tech then you will realize that a Clear cannot have his own GPMs any more. A fully run OT2 resolves the GPM case.
    The fights and endless “games” that go on in the FZ are not the result of GPMs but something that needs to be addressed at a higher level.
    There are 2 main things that aberate people – Pain and Sex. LRH got a considerable kickback from stating that.

  372. Hubbard made a HUGE issue of “words” and “literacy” and proper translation from book to student.

    Without this HUGE significance on words and literacy, the PURPOSE of his “Church” would have been fragile.

    The PURPOSE of a Church is to TRANSLATE. From book to student.

    In the CofS, it was made such a huge issue that “word clearing” became part of a supernatural metered activity.

    Apparently everyone on the planet can read except a Scientologist, without the help of an emeter.

  373. Michael — nothing private at all. Go to milestonetwoDOTorg.

    Read the membership requirements … full and associate. Just Me is simply asking Dan Koon how (as one of the founding fathers) a requirement to becoming a FULL member is an A-J meter check.

    Since he is one of the founding fathers – of which this entire blog article of Marty’s is about — it would stand to reason that he understands how this came to pass.

    No private string.

    As for being a joke — well, I can agree to that 🙂

  374. Note to the chosen few-

    “I AM A SCIENTOLOGIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”


    “I practice Hubbard stuff and applications freely and without inhibition where it improves lives and conditions outwardly and observable for the person(s) in front of me.”

    There’s the pronounced divide.

    Individuation is cult behavior.

    Wake up magnificent eleven or you will even spoil your self-appointed holier than thou independent movement .

    Good luck because you’re going to need it.

  375. Tom Gallagher

    From Tom Gallagher

  376. Here comes the tax man.

  377. Y’all are going to be taxed for being Scientologists and having comm lines and friends.

  378. Mamma Mia!

    Marty you have been, are and no doubt will continue to be consistent in this blog’s purpose and all that you choose to share.

    Like you I wish ocean’s eleven all the best at the casino but I too couldn’t finish their manifesto. Made me feel rather sad. So much time and effort for what exactly?

    Anyway… I am very glad to see you and mosey carrying on carrying on.

    Inspiring… As ever.


  379. What was GAOT about? Better TRANSLATIONS! What is GAOT ll about? Better TRANSLATIONS.

    If you keep pushing this people that you are serving the purpose of the Church by TRANSLATIONS, you can keep it holy feeling.

  380. Trust me people, you can open a book and read it.

    You will be just fine.

  381. If you don’t open a book and read it, you should just admit it isn’t all that interesting for you.

  382. That is ALLOWED out here.

  383. Anyone with a view can see that compulsory education bears bitter fruit.

  384. Nice to see you posting here again. Missed you!

  385. Michael, LRH doesnt do my looking. He points out a place to look to, that has never occured to me before, I look there to see what I see and it is usually what he describes, to the benefit of my life in some way or another.
    I dont consider myself a KSW zealot, I can just see its use. But the use of it, for me, ceases the moment it takes away from the being instead of enhancing it, which is what I believe was its purpose.
    I dont believe I am blaming anyone for looking, my thoughts on that is that everyone is free to look where they like, live and believe the way they like if that doesnt harm others.
    But dont you see that this blog is just tearing into people who believe that there is more to LRH and his tech than maybe you and they do. They have that right, I have that right! I am just trying to defend that right and the people, some of whom I know who are putting MS2 together. They are good people who just want to practice Scientology without the bullshit.
    Those people were welcome on this blog once, now they and their viewpoints are not or they are attacked. Whose changed?

  386. “An associate member cannot become a Full Member;
    3) [By] Denigrating or disparaging L. Ron Hubbard or the workability of the technologies he discovered;”

    This is just a ser fac and a way of fair gaming up front.

  387. Maybe all of the BPC and all of the T.A. is charge blowing off.

    When you indicate a right item you get an itsa and T.A. and charge blowing off.

    Clearly Marty has had some SUPPRESSION on his lines.

    When he points it out coming from the Scientology Corporate arena everyone blows charge and it’s accepted.

    If he points out that it is coming from a “frenemy” or someone out here, he has a “problem”.

    Well guess what, there IS suppression out here. There HAS been suppression on his lines from people out here also. LOTS of it. He has been fair gamed all over the inter net and it doesn’t just come from inside Scientology corporations.

  388. In fact, some of it is coming from you.

  389. “The Way Out Is Not The Way Back In.”

    It’s human nature Marty. Men spend nine months trying to get out of the womb and the rest of their lives trying to get back in.

  390. Curious to know which of the 11 “founders” will pass the A-J check!

    A-1. Have any of your family or friends ever expressed any disagreement with Scientology?
    A-2. Is there someone who doesn’t want you to be here?
    A-3. Are you here to prove to someone that Scientology works, or to show them.
    B-1. Do you have a criminal record?
    B-2. Have you committed any crimes for which you have not been caught?
    C-1. Have you ever threatened to sue or embarrass or attack Scientology or Scientologists?
    C-2. Do you know of anyone who has?
    D-3. Is anyone or anything the cause of the way you are now, or some condition you are in?
    E-1. Are you here on your own determinism?
    E-2. Do you feel obliged in any way or to any one to be here?
    F-1. Are you here to see if Scientology works?
    F-2. Does Scientology always work for you?
    H-1. Do you want to get better?
    H-2. Do you know of any other mental technology that works?
    I-1. What gains are you expecting in Scientology?
    J-1. Do you represent an attempt to investigate Scientology?
    J-2. Do you know of anyone who is investigating Scientology?
    J-5. Have you ever had thoughts of suing or requesting refund if the tech “didn’t work”?

  391. Let me be the first to confess. I am “out qualed”.

  392. martyrathbun09

    None of the eleven were ever unwelcome. They blew. Look that symptom up in your green and red volumes. Your 1.1 (read cowardly) attempt to slide black PR on me into this forum did not go unnoticed.

  393. “Otherwise, it’s whole track”, concept gotten. LOL!

  394. martyrathbun09

    Amazing how Scientologists, of any stripe, can project themselves as so dead certain. It is the bane of the Scientology in action.

  395. Suddenly. It has been free and plentiful up until a few days ago.

  396. martyrathbun09

    You noted I see Marty answers many with recommendations to read his book. I’d be happy to read what he has to say but have no interest in paying for it. I have written thousands of pages – free of charge – on this blog. The books do not come anywhere near covering the time I put in to them to connect the dots for fellas like you who find the blog so incomprehnsible and worthless. I consider your post arrogant and discourteous given the substance of the post it allegedly responds to. If you don’t grow up and become a man by the time you attempt to post again, it’ll be your last attempt here. I have spent far more time trying to help you than apparently you consider yourself worth.

  397. martyrathbun09

    You are demonstrating that I have wasted four years trying to get through to you. Let me make a recommendation. What you want, MS2 delivers in spades. Good luck with it.

  398. martyrathbun09

    So have you all.

  399. A-2. Is there someone who doesn’t want you to be here?

    Um, yeah, anyone that feels I am worthless if I can’t pass an A-J check.

    C-1. Have you ever threatened to sue or embarrass or attack Scientology or Scientologists?

    Um, yeah, I did respond with such threats to the founding member of M2 that threatened to sue my children, (his students/P.C.’s).

    C-2. Do you know of anyone who has?

    Um, yeah. I recall some of the founders of M2 that threatened to sue or embarrass or attack Scientology and Scientologists, They attacked threatened and embarrassed Scientologists right here on this blog.

    E-2. Do you feel obliged in any way or to any one to be here?

    Um, if I want to apply K.S.W., why yes. The lives of every man woman and child depend on me and I should not be half minded about being a Scientologist.

    H-2. Do you know of any other mental technology that works?

    Um, yes. I confess. Mathematics and the use of symbols. 1+2 = 3.

    Sorry, isn’t there a rundown to handle this?

    E-1. Are you here on your own determinism?

    Um, does that really matter? I read it straight from a founding member I should just do as I’m told even if I don’t understand it.

    Session break.

    Return to session.

    R factor form the C/S: It doesn’t say the founding members have to pass the A to J check.

    Just potential wanna be’s.

  400. Marty,
    I’m about a third of my way through your book, which had rekindled my awareness of how genuine your help flow is, and to which I can attest first-hand.
    And, sorry if this is redundant, but after leaving the “church” in 1998 and prior to going to Casa Blanca in 2011, I had no intention of ever picking up the cans again. However, thanks to my dear friend Carol Kramer, who also has a huge help flow, that all changed when she recommended I look at your blog.
    The rest if history. I got from you what I never experienced in my 34 years of auditing in the CoS!
    And, although I’m not on this blog daily and we don’t communicate on a regular basis, I consider you my auditor and friend and will push you power-forever. And for Mosey, wow aren’t we lucky you found her and we too all have her!
    My wins continue each and every day! I remember the end of one of the sessions, I’d had a cog, and we were talking and you said we needed to end off……and that was what it was like sitting across from you having a conversation, feeling the ARC, the duplication, it was so easy…..and I thank you.
    My only problem now is-I need to get my butt in gear, stop enjoying life so much, finish my course, and come back for more.
    L, M

  401. “There are many paths up the mountain. The only folks who fail to achieve the summit are those running in circles telling others they are wrong.”

    This is a VERY wise comment. Simple,concise, and true.
    The actions of ALL of those running around in circles telling others they are wrong is “Much Ado About Nothing” as Shakespeare might say.

    The truth is that the customer is king and the products produced from the viewpoint of the customers will determined who is recommending the better paths.
    As Marty mentioned at the beginning of his post here,
    “We succeeded in our four-year effort to free the methodologies of Hubbard for independent application in accordance with practitioner’s consciences.”
    Yes, the toothpaste IS out of the tube.
    So now, let’s practice good “mental hygiene”.
    And as always……Caveat Emptor. (Let the buyer beware.)

  402. Note: Sociopaths pass lie detector tests AND sec checks.

    Why? They have NO CHARGE on their crimes!

  403. Great Post

  404. C-1. Have you ever threatened to sue or embarrass or attack Scientology or Scientologists?

    Names replaced with hats.

    M2 founding member threatens to sue my children, after he audited and trained them:

    From: M2 Founder
    Cc: Client’s auditor
    Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 2:16 PM
    Subject: alleged video

    To: Paying client and her auditor,
    This is to inform you that I have just heard from paying client’s auditor, in an email, that I was secretly videoed in my own private space, while in Las Vegas, by Client. Client’s auditor told me, in writing, he has seen some of the supposed footage of this hidden camera, and a still photograph.
    I had a reasonable expectation of privacy in my own space. (Note: he was in my condo with my children) That it was my space, for the time I was there, is easily evidenced and I have that evidence.
    I have informed both of you today, in personal emails to each, of a weblink describing privacy laws in the state of Nevada. If Client took the footage, unbeknownst to me and without any approval of me to be videoed in my own space, implied or express, and Client’s auditor was informed of this and took no action thus becoming a party to this invasion of privacy, then it is incumbent upon either or both to see that all such footage, if it exists, is send to me forthwith, with any and all copies of said footage, including any still photographs, computer files and so on, any copies that is digital or otherwise, destroyed and a accompanying documents to this effect.
    I am seeking legal counsel in Nevada as of this moment, to ensure my rights are protected. Should the aforementioned video, stills and all remnants of any such illegal gathered material, be sent directly to my address, and the suitable and appropriate documents signed and sealed by both interested parties Client and Her auditor, as well as Her Husband, Her child #1/Her child #2 (with suitable counsel for the underage parties involved), if they have been, in this egregious invasion of privacy) then I expect a quick closure of the issues presented by the invasion of my privacy.
    Should there not be any response, forthwith, to this email, I shall take the matter further upon the advice of counsel, and pursue my legal rights in the state of Nevada, and should it be appropriate, at the Federal court considering that the issue involves a California resident as well as a Nevada resident.
    M2 Founding Member

    Yes, He threatened to sue me for finding out what he was doing alone with my children, in my condo, while he was getting paid to tutor them/counsel them.

    It was an invasion of “his privacy” for me to know what he was doing alone with my children working as my employee.

    Care to know WHY this was such a HUGE threat for him?

    Why should I care to pass an A-J check with this person?

    I had to retain an attorney for my kids!

  405. 🙂 Nice observation.

  406. Oh, this information was forwarded to another “Founding member” of M2.

    Who apparently feels it is a non important issue!

    But, Hey! line up for your A-J checks folks if you want to apply for membership in THIS elite group!

  407. I will look through your site and give it a study. I admire all who take Scientology and work with it and reason with it and work on building a better bridge. I think it is our responsibility when communicating about it to do all we can to be clear and communicate what we are trying to do.

    I am aware of several good auditors who are very well grounded in the most beneficial basics of Scientology and then are also doing their best to own the material and evolve with it as has been discussed here. They are studying the materials of past unacknowledged contributors to the Scientology tech and are also clearly thinking and attempting (and succeeding) with their own contributions.

    My hat is off to those who are willing to be courageous with Scientology tech. Those who are willing to do it exactly and also those who, with the most virtuous ideals in mind, attempt to find other ways to better themselves and their fellows. So, hats off to you and other truly independent auditors.

  408. I have been reading the blog with great interest every day and lately it has become even more meaningful to me. I hope the new group “Whatever Lite LTD” does not distract the participants on this blog into meaningless combat. It seems to me this group (WL LTD) has no power to impact or harm the Rathbuns. As to others, they will have to discover whatever resonates in their own lives for themselves. So why even give WL LTD any more time?

  409. Don’t even respond to this crap Marty. Although I did enjoy your diatribe… lol.

  410. CommunicatorIC

    Another brief essay on the Milestone Two Constitution: Miletsone Two: Who determines if you are OT 3 and thus qualified for the Council?!-Miletsone-Two!-Independent-Scientology-Membership-Community!-30-per-year!&p=816125&viewfull=1#post816125

    Conclusion of the essay: “NOTE: This may, or may not, be similar to the “democratic” system in Iran where a supreme religious leader or religious council determines whether a candidate is religiously qualified to run for office.”

  411. What was that?


  412. Gerhard Waterkamp

    The current status on the website is 10 members.
    Max Bleiweiss, Lana Mitchell, Paul Foster, Kevin Boland, Chris Mann, Jim Logan, An auditor Ch, Dani Lemberger, Dan Koon

    Mark Shreffler

  413. … there are too many of us now.

    Perfect Bob.

  414. Hi Sapere Aude,

    I like what you wrote and totally agree – a path such as the Bridge is a journey to have more understanding. And there can definitely be more understanding after that, just in life itself – right up to where the 8th dynamic is reached, according to Scn principles, at which time a whole new game could be started.

    What I had in mind when I said that the Bridge “may not” be the end of the journey for “many” was to leave open the possibility that for some people the end of the Bridge could have brought them to a point of “enlightenment” or “self-actualization”, or whatever other term they might use to describe reaching a state where they no longer needed the assistance of any particular laid-out path or route. IMO, that could even apply to any “level” on the Bridge, for some individuals. From that level, whatever it may be, whether the end of the Bridge or some earlier point, they would have the ability to find another path – or devise their own, make their own own way, and life itself would be “a process” for them with which they could continue to expand.

    Now that I think of it, this seems like a similar concept to the idea that at a certain point on the Bridge a pc needs to continue as a solo auditor, rather than being audited by another. And further down the fractal sequence would be the fact that a level or rundown or even a process can (and must) be ended when the pc is “on his own” with regard to it. In other words, there is probably a whole fractal sequence to this sequence of following a path, short or long, that someone else has devised until you can “solo”. That kind of makes sense, don’t you think? 🙂

  415. marildi,
    Thanks for that input, very useful.

    LRH wanted all to have gains from the bridge. Starting people off as “hey you may not get as much out of this as others” was probably not seen as best practice for business even though it is 100% true. This established perfect grounds for the pretentious to turn the bridge into a level based pissing contest and have A=A people who completed the same steps on the bridge. Easy to spot them as they make statements like: “I’ve done OT XYZ so I know!”. LRH did put the idea into practice that what really matters is to have gain. This gain however is relative to the state of the individual upon entering SC. Many people ignore this relativeness and think with the levels as absolute.

    Another common issue is that when someone enters SC and does not need a particular grade for example. He has to do it anyway which will cause bypassed charge guaranteed. I’ve learned from a master that just by not acknowledging already existing abilities of the PC prior to or during session one gets invalidated which can cause a lot of bypassed charge. C/S-ing was supposed to catch these issues but IMO this has not been practiced my the vast majority.

    I’m a living example of this. Prior to OT IV prep I had sort of a constant pressure/borderline headache frequently during auditing. Like a splinter in my mind. Clearing up these bypassed charges on OT IV prep gave me a relief I can’t put into words.

    This is a seriously overlooked issue in everyday practice. Invalidation by not acknowledging already existing abilities.

    The CO$ seems to be a notorious violator on this.

  416. I think the end is when one is able to see reality for what it is on their own without sessions. This includes being able to spot on the fly already accepted deviations from reality.

    That’s the point when “SC ran itself out” for the individual.


    Dan Koon doesn’t answer any questions asked of him on the Internet.

    I’ve asked him quite a few.

    He has never answered even one.

    He did go on another board and natter about the questions I asked him. So I know he received the questions.


  418. CommunicatorIC,
    Since you wish to engage in politically correct “new speak”, what do you deem to be the proper term to be used?

    Which leads to the next question: “When does the dictionary of acceptable terms come out?”

    BTW, is this your name (handle) or your function, or both?

  419. I am so sorry that you are so poor financially (that you cannot afford a 10 to 16 dollar book) and so poor in spirit as to criticize someone that has taken the time to post 100’s of thousands of words for free. If I wasn’t so confounded by your post I would offer to send you a copy.

  420. deElizabethan

    That was Beautiful, Sapere Aude

  421. Good post.

  422. Dirk Niblick

    I feel you are missing the point. I don’t recall ever seeing Marty posting about how there shouldn’t be any Independent Scientology groups.

    Marty can correct me, but I really doubt he disagrees with this group simply because they’ve organized in some form. I feel he has made it pretty clear that what he disagrees with is a mentality he sees: people who are militant, who feel they know it all, who have a cult-like “certainty,” and who demonstrate many of the same attitudes and actions that you would expect to find at Gold Base.

    I feel he has made it pretty clear that this is what he has a problem with. He has clearly explained that he believes that some of the admin tech and some of LRH’s own policies really fostered and encouraged these destructive attitudes. However, that doesn’t mean there’s something inherently wrong with starting an independent Scientology group. What’s wrong is that this group seems to be attacking people, demanding that certain questions never be asked, spreading rumors, insisting that LRH knew all, tearing people down, and becoming that which it supposedly opposes: a mini, lite version of the CoS.

  423. Jethro Bodine

    None of them would pass the A-J check as they are all PTS to themselves and each other since all eleven of them are declared SPs. It’s also a Suppressive Act per Hubbard’s ethics code to start and continue to adhere to a splinter group.

  424. Identics also deals with the subject of identities. I read a very intriguing description of this by Mike Goldstein not too long ago. Here’s the link to a short article:

  425. Right on, Tony!

  426. I like what you said.

  427. Spelling correction: Idenics (not Identics).

  428. Marty, one thing I just realized after reading the iScn blog. In all the years I have been posting here, you only blocked ONE post of mine – and for reasons that were very clear and understandable at the time. One. I know I have posted several hundred comments since 2010.

    One of the FIRST comments I posted over there was blocked. And it was about my saying as a part of the comment that “Scientology is not complete.” It was really somewhat benign. Yet it was blocked. I knew then that it was a tightly wound ship.

    So, I congratulate you on what you are doing and what you have been doing, and the heat you have been taking, and the tolerance you have shown. You are helping a lot of people, myself included, and I just wanted to tell you that and thank you for that.


  429. Michael Cox

    Ralph, You must be accustomed to buying books from the CofS. How many posts at $10 per do you think you would have to post to earn a copy?
    I bought it, It was pretty cheap. No 5% a month increase so that you are bilked 60$ for a regular sized book.

    Marty, I just went on a trip home to see the family and took your book to read on the plane and for those times when I just had to get away for some alone time. I could not put it down. Fascinating, enlightening, I was blown away. Thank you for the great read and the long awaited answers. I was in Portland in 1985, I was around for the fall out of Mayo and Mission holders conference and Snow White. Great! Can’t wait for the next installment.

    Ralph. You don’t know what you’re missing.

    And to get back on topic. Great post. OMG!

  430. cotch, to me your post reads as though you have not read Marty’s OP. You seem to have all the flows reversed.

  431. Theo, Marty is not attacking anyone.

  432. Ralph,

    Looks like it’s up to you to develop the Pain and Sex Rundown.

    Have you determined the dates and details for the implants that were supposed to have created both pain and sex?

    When do you think you’ll have it ready for delivery?

    Maybe you could make it a new OT level.

  433. I’m mostly pissed off at DM because of his technical alterations.

  434. Li'll bit of stuff

    Please duplicate. I said, and I quote: “surely the common enemy is DM”. That does not = ” .If you mock up DM as the cause of all that is wrong, I feel you are really missing the boat.” No my friend you may have missed the boat, along with the others who did not “Get It” Marty has so much to offer but instead of keeping it clean and dignified, he chooses to berate, undermine and ARCx people who do not walk lockstep with him. I can see now why so many have chosen to leave his blog and join others that offer ARC. understanding and a place where one can voice one’s opinions without the negative rebuffs.
    But hey, let’s give kudos where its due, Marty has done some great work, (among others) but maybe now (as he no longer wants to be referred to as a Scientologist,) he could bow out gracefully and allow those who are Scientologists, to run with it and try and move it forward.
    Now I have said my piece from the sidelines, i will bow out gracefully

  435. Ralph, you are funny. You are joking, right?

  436. Me neither. I think there is not a single person in or out Scientology who qualifies, and that includes the dwarf.

  437. About taking charge: Have you watched the ‘star wars episode 3’? It has a very interesting political story similar to the ‘revolt in the stars’. First the bad guy creates the out ethics to get handled –an enemy or something. Then he declares others to be incapable to deal with it. Then he takes charge, as he is so capable himself to deal with it, he claims. To those that are unaware of this game, the resulting oppression seems like a necessary evil. Many view him as a Messiah who saved them from the enemy (while the enemy was the Messiah all along). It’s such a typical, over-repeating drama.

    The solution for me is to grant beingness, self determinism, grant beingness to each individual universe. If one claims to know reality, that the reality is bad what does he claim? He claims your universe is forcefully connected to that reality and thus can the effect of it. He then can dominate your universe (if you agree). The anchorage to MEST is about obsessive agreement –full of necessary evils….solutions to problems. One can use this basic implant to dominate. But he has to play that game “there is an evil to get handled”. I never saw anyone who tried to create a better reality, to try to dominate my universe. That’s never been necessary. I never agree with necessary evils anymore.

  438. As I have all my GPMs unhandled on my case I am not able to lead a self determined life. Tangled up in „fights and endless games conditions“.
    [Thus I have to agree and pay to be able to have a life]
    Or a different viewpoint here:
    Pain and Sex is aberating me.
    [So I avoid pain and do not have any Sex and be Clear or OT]
    Oh yes!

  439. Oh well, at the end of the day, let’s have a laugh at ourselves and consider our similarities. Behind every conflict there is a member of the “ruling class”.

  440. My view is :
    For those that don’t know who these surposely 11 new leaders are
    forming themselves to be , some obvilously certaintly know who these are but many will not.inspite of indications layed out characters as such as its been read on blog sites, the convert attempt to put some kind of ethics in on free zoners.
    One does not need to have a member ship to apply standard scientology
    if trained /or taking services under indepts or free zone..or rons /.
    One would have to be on the alert for control /entheta and attempts to further suppress into their movement tof control and desruption and confusion . Wake up and look out
    Best policy stick to the applcation of keeping Scientology Working.and stamp on any indications of such mentioned .” Simple your unwelcomed and go away.. Thats my Motto.

  441. Getting declared an SP does not make you PTS except to the person that declared you. Getting declared an SP does not make you an SP. Isn’t that a shock duh? Getting declared an SP only means someone is trying to suppress the hell out of you by cutting all of your comm lines.
    Getting declared an SP only means someone is out to get you. Getting declared an SP means someone has gone into an enemy condition towards you and has decided to unmock you. Getting declared an SP only means you have at least one enemy somewhere. Getting declared an SO only means the Church invested in Golden Rod on your behalf. Getting declared an SP means that was the best solution your Church could come up with to the problem, killing you off.

    Getting declared an SP does not make you an SP, it only makes you PTS to the person who is out to get you.

  442. Declaring someone an SP is very fucking suppressive.

  443. Declaring someone an SP, is by far, the single most suppressive act I have seen dramatized in that culture. Poof! Totally unmock someone with that one! The purpose to unmock someone is as suppressive as it gets.

    From the tech dictionary:

    UNMOCK: 1. Take down or destroy. 2. To make nothing of.

    Hubbard address’ this as suppressive and backed by evil intentions in HCOB’s.

    Yet, the purpose of an SP declare is to unmock someone. It NEVER blows charge for the group. It just restimulates them.

    That is what I have seen.

  444. Stat wise, if you count how many people the Church has declared, against how many people they have gotten “up the bridge (OT8’s), you will see the Church is unmocking more people than they are helping.

    That is a situation.

  445. Hi Pip,

    Interesting that you mention Christian Science. My first wife (back in my younger days) had grown up in a Christian Science family but oddly enough I don’t recall us ever having any in-depth discussions about it. However, we probably did but I assume I just didn’t ‘get it’ at the time nor did I ever become interested in exploring it. But, I must admit, until only the last year or so I have been holding onto some major and deep seated grievances (though quite suppressed) with regard to anything having to do with Christianity. Indeed, anything with the a form of the word ‘Christian’ in it was a big button for me. Haha, perhaps that’s why I was guided (that damn higher self) to move back to Arkansas and reside in a neighborhood where I am literally surrounded by the largest Christian churches in the city. Anyway, I digress. It was your mention of Christian Science that prompted this reply. Just recently, in an exchange between one of my YT friends, the subject of Christian Science came up as he was recommending my reading the works of Ernest Holmes (who I had never heard of). My friend wrote:

    ” His epic “Science of Mind” is one for your bookshelf but I have “The Hidden Power of the Bible” and it is simply a beautiful side-piece to the Course [A Course in Miracles]. I guess many would consider Holmes the first and ultimate Christian Scientist. He was clearly an enlightened soul and well worth looking into.”

    So Pip, I’m curious, are you familiar with Ernest Homes and his work?

  446. À LOT to read here. Too much.
    Anyway, does this mean I will get another badge?
    In the end I might have replaced all the shredded
    certificates with a wall full of badges, as there are
    more offshoots going to spring up, as sure as the
    sun rises every morning.

  447. Yup! This is what I’m talking about. Exactly this.

  448. Your post is a great clarification, for me at least, of what is at the heart of this debate. Thanks.

  449. Have been to a lot of airports recently and seeing all
    these people arrive and leave, with all the hugs and
    kisses in abundance. Theta penetrates and permeates
    (while entheta solidifies).

  450. Hi DIO,

    Nineteen years ago when I met my wife I was a devoted, active scientologist. She was a Reiki Master, an accomplished rebirther and incredibly well read in what would be categorized as being “New Age” material. She had quite an extensive library as well as many, many immensely interesting stories having to do with her spiritual journey. She had also been a student of A Course in Miracles (ACIM) since her mid twenties (she was in her mid forties when we met). Of course, my being the true believing scientologist that I was, I viewed all that she had been into or was into as being “other practices” and it was her good fortune and my duty to enlighten her to the ‘only’ (only in my mind) truly viable spiritual technology that existed on the planet. To accomplish this, which I never did btw, I had to be very tolerant and patient while I listened to all this “mumbo jumbo” she shared with me. Of course, any practice that she told me about that she considered workable, was instantly translated by myself into SCese and informed her how SC/LRH was superior. Any and all attempts that she made to share with me views form ACIM were adeptly deflected while I maintained my superior position. The course book, throughout our relationship, has always been close at hand. However, I never once even opened it and looked through it. Even after my leaving SC, after ceasing to identify myself as being a scientologist, I still would not open that book.

    Then, one day, an old and dear friend who I had met many years ago in SC, came across one of my comments posted on Marty’s blog and tracked me down. During our first conversation in many years my friend asked if I had ever heard of ACIM. I was floored! My wife’s book was laying on the desk right in front of me. It seemed my friend had been studying the course for several years and had discovered it through exchanges with other exSC. My resistance to it was obvious so my friend suggested I read the book, The Disappearance of the Universe, by Gary Renard. And, if I could get through that book (especially chapter 2) I might be interested in looking at ACIM.

    Well, it took a bit over two years before, just like had happened with me and DN back in 78′, I came face to face with Renard’s book in a local bookstore. I pulled it off the shelf, opened it up and read…”one cannot take any part of the illusion into heaven.” What the hell…..I bought it.

    As it worked out, I did make it through Renard’s book and I did go onto explore ACIM. Although, I must say, in the beginning I really had to wrestle with the form/style of writing and the nomenclature. I have found the views as presented in the course to be enormously compatible with SC tech but so very much more simple to work with. That said, I have absolutely no doubts that my study and experience in SC totally set me up to embrace and apply the considerations as presented in the course in a manner that students who have been years on the course have not yet been able to achieve. Perhaps for you DIO, it worked the other way around i.e., your experience with ACIM set you up to achieve the results you have received from auditing. I have come to believe DIO that we we each have our own unique life curriculum preset for us to follow. There is nothing random in our journey through time and space and we cannot help but be at the right place at the right time.

    For anyone to insist that their path is the best, the only or the most workable and then to insist that others have to follow that path is insanity. Yet, this is standard operating procedure for most religions. It was what I had built up such a resistance to in my early exposure to Christianity and then it’s what I became as a scientologist. I became the insanity I resisted. LOL!

  451. Just when I think this game cannot get any crazier, some new turn of events comes along and leaves me with my mouth hanging open.

    I have no personal words of wisdom or particular insight into these events.

    I do know that Marty has helped me directly to have what I consider a fairly easy transition out of the morass of Scn, Inc. I have watched first hand as he has provided very meaningful help to people I care about. I see the fruits of his efforts and by that I will judge him. He cares and he helps. And he could not accomplish this without his partner, loved by all who know her, Mosey.

    That others insist on having a structured group isn’t surprising. Some beings just roll that way. That they saw a need to make Marty wrong in the process greatly disappoints me. The form and style of structure they have chosen disappoints me even more.

    I realize there is probably much to all this I do not know the facts of and much more I like just have not yet grasp.

    As for me, my own path for spiritual growth from this point will be a personal one. Guided by my own instincts, building on what I’ve learned from LRH and all great minds I’ve studied, integrating what makes sense to me, monitoring my own intentions, and hopefully bringing just a little more joy and peace of mind to this cumulative experience called life.

  452. Jethro Bodine

    I’m merely pointing out the irony of a group that supposedly wants to follow Hubbard’s policies to the letter yet at the same time wants to keep the PTS A-J checks, even though all of the founding members are declared SP. Do you get it? Or starting a splinter group outside the church, yet all of Hubbard’s policies say such groups are not allowed and will get anyone declared who tries to associate with them.
    SP declares are supposedly issued because someone commits a suppressive act according to Hubbard policies, or at lease the issuer of the SP declare claims that they committed suppressive acts. Hubbard’s policies require that you either handle or disconnect from a declared SP. Whether there’s any validity to the SP declare is a different story.

  453. Cooper Kessel

    The whole process is a very clear example of how group think perpetuates itself. It says the group is all and the individual is nothing. Hail the new group for it is the first truly right group with all of the answers.

    (And keep any god damn questions you may have to yourself!)

  454. Dear Marty,
    You are correct that the way out is not going back in.
    This is the first I’ve heard of a Committee of eleven.
    No sage advice or suggestions, only that I read your blog
    and it helps me understand the bigger picture.

  455. Scientology, with its confidential upper Bridge, secret policies, secret tech, and secret organizations, was created to hide vital information from Scientologists to keep them operating at effect and not at cause.

    This is how you make a “clubbed seal”, as Mike likes to call the Scientologists in the Church.

    I believe that people who worked at Int, like Dan Koon and you and others, have a duty to Scientologists to answer their questions and to give them the truthful information they need to make informed decisions about their own involvement in Scientology.

    When that is not happening, I believe this should be pointed out to Scientologists so that they at least know there is information being withheld from them and they are not operating, and making decisions, on all the data. They should also know that some of the data they are using to make decisions about Scientology is false.

    I believe this is very important. I believe that you, Marty, are doing a much better job lately in getting this truthful information to Scientologists so that they can make informed decisions about their own involvement. Mike is getting a lot better at this, too.

    But I believe that Dan Koon is still doing a horrible job at this. I think it is extremely irresponsible to still hold the secrets of Int Base – especially with regard to the development of the tech itself – seemingly with the intention to continue to create clubbed seals, even outside the Church.

    I think the manufacturing of clubbed seals in Scientology needs to stop.


  456. St,
    Just curious. What is your definition of a leader?

  457. Well, here are my own questions for those who attempt to achieve the Aims of Scientology:

    • Have you ever have a thought of your own that disagrees with Hubbard and Scientology doctrine?

    • Can you perceive life AS IS natively, without regard to Scientology scripture and training?

    • Can you articulate your own viewpoint about life, mind and spirit, without referring to LRH and his scripture?

    • Can you study Mr. Hubbard’s original research and description of life, mind and spirit and immediately apply it to his “Official Scriptures” and found it at odds and in contradiction with that final package?

    • Can you accept the fact that if you mean to apply and achieve Mr. Hubbard’s original promises to you, it won’t be possibly in the Church environment and its structured belief system that he later created?

    • Can you observe the irrevocable facts that by, necessities of life, heavy external pressure, legal, financial and other personal reasons, Mr. Hubbard switched, altered and cloaked his research into the mind and spirit, into some kind of schizophrenic final package that is not compatible with his findings on the original line of research into those subjects?

    • Can you observe by yourself, the cold ugly facts of how Scientologists self degrade; self entrap and do onto others what was done to them by their buying into Scientology Final Religious Package?

    And more important to you:

    • Can you stand alone, naked, vulnerable and unmasked of all self-delusions, and contemplate your true self and the nature of reality for what it is, AS IS?

    • Can you do that, regardless of the perceived imminent threats to your ideas of self and its apparent necessity of survival, regardless of WHO said WHAT; and recognize that the Perception of Truth cannot be given to you, but that it is YOU who must come to it by yourself?

  458. mwestern, I had never seen that before — a great analysis. Thanks for posting it!

  459. gretchen dewire

    Amen Conan

  460. Monte,

    I ack your reply. I do not discredit any data. My point on ACIM not helping me with my trauma was, that the only thing that I found to clear out the effects of trauma and abuse is auditing. I have tried a lot of different things and the only thing that I found that works is auditing. Dianetics or some related spin off is the tech for trauma and abuse. Sure, I know well the ACIM is all about forgiveness. And I was forgiving and forgiving for 20 yrs and I was not getting better. My Dianetics demo in 97, (which lasted about two hrs.) gave me a small release, which lasted for a couple of hours. This approx two hour session did more for me, in that time, than 27 yrs of many other therapies and healings. After the session I felt like I was pulled out from under a rock pile. I have been getting better since.


  461. Alanzo, I don’t recall any of the questions you allegedly asked me but go ahead and ask again and I will try to answer as best I can. I will start with asking you one: what is your name?
    As for my comment about DM’s sleep, my point is that if DM were no longer in power it is likely, very likely, that Marty, me, Mike, Steve, Jeff Hawkins, the Headleys and many others would still be working away in the SO, for better or worse.

  462. Sapere Aude

    Yvonne – I believe you have said the very essence of the game:

    “As for me, my own path for spiritual growth from this point will be a personal one. Guided by my own instincts, building on what I’ve learned from LRH and all great minds I’ve studied, integrating what makes sense to me, monitoring my own intentions, and hopefully bringing just a little more joy and peace of mind to this cumulative experience called life.”

    The integration of our beingness and thoughts into the broad canvas of life. That is the real fruits of being there and observation. You wrote it so well – thanks!

  463. There is another name for noise and harmonic distortion Sinar:


    or more exactly FUNNEL-MENTALISM

    definitions below

  464. deElizabethan

    Thanks Conan for those excellent questions.

  465. Thanks. You are right, interesting!

  466. Here we go again!

  467. I don’t have a problem with people starting up their own groups. But creating artificial needs in people such as, “You need us”, “You reallt need a group” is the opposite of encouraging people to be Independent.

    Anyone you need or depend upon you become the effect of. Domination is a purpose.

    A “holier than thou” precedes it with vague values. Such “We have been “in” over a century”. Huh? “In” must be a state of mind because there are decades of NO place NEAR the Church or on the bridge.

    “We have more years, we have more certs, we were on staff, OT3 or above, ….” FALSE SIGNIFICANCES. These things are frankly, insignificant. David Miscavige has everybody beat with these stats. If value is placed on these, people might as well wander back into the C of S. What edge do they have? Cheaper rates? All the way from South of Indonesia in some livingroom where the keyboard is sitting? What are you paying for? Opinions. Opinions.

    False significances is a DROP SOUTH from ASSOCIATED TERMINALS. But at least it is a step up above RUMORS.

    (HCO PL 16 February 1971,

    Lines and Terminals)

    There is a scale concerning Lines and Terminals.


















  468. Any group or person who is offering what others do not need and want will ultimately fail or stay limited in size.

  469. Marty should “bow out gracefully”? This is your purpose for Marty?
    There would not be any way for for Scientologists to “move forward” or “run with it” if he and his wife hadn’t lived with five years of suppression up in their front yard. You are over in South Africa watching videos and posting on the net. And now present Marty as a “barrier” that is stopping people from moving forward?

  470. Marty is “in your way”? That is the biggest ALTER IS I have seen yet and it is being spread as a LIE. People may be gullible, but they are not STUPID and hit with that kind of SUDDEN amnesia.

  471. YOU are the one here ser facing on him and working to undermine his value on HIS blog. And you are accusing him of being an obstacle? Are you in confusion? At least an enemy condition. Where is your “standard tech” ethics condition write up posted as to why Marty should be harmed attacked and suppressed? Where is anybodies?

  472. Oh, O.K.. Laughter! Now I get it. Thanks!

  473. Thank you ARe. I can’t believe some of the “thinking people” who can’t see this for the straight up TREASON that it is.

  474. I also notice they don’t bother to edit out any fair gaming of Marty on their blog.

  475. At least they are getting more overt.

  476. The next time someone needs to escape from the Int Base, needs legal organization, funds and representation, I will send them the link to iscientology blog. To ensure nobody here gets in their way in handling their crisis.

  477. While I don’t agree with all your points Conan, you do make some interesting ones. Thanks for posting.

  478. Old Secretary

    Monte, nice quote. I would like to add something it brought to mind. Between stimulus and response there certainly NEEDS to be space. Its not there for everyone, all the time. I have found that meditation helps create sufficient space. Helps one detach from their body. This remark is not intended to take anything away from the quote of Frankl. The quote’s message is valid. But that space he identifies is not a given, and not often enough. So creating the needed space between stimulus and response has added fundamental importance for growth and freedom.

  479. mwesten, I think this nails a major point. Back in the 1970s, when I first came across the list of offenses in the then “little” Intro to Ethics book, is when I started to tune out of the possibility of ever being on staff.

    Today’s GAK version of that same book has probably 3 times the number of offenses and penalties in it, as they have accumulated over the years. Today’s version of the Intro to Ethics book is anything but an “Intro” to the subject.

  480. I hear you! I have a friend who did a lot of auditing when he was in the CoS and is a big proponent of the tech – with the exception that there was that small percentage of cases for whom it did not go so smoothly. Some of them got the EP (or maybe already had it, as in your case) well before the C/S “expected” them to – whether that was due to their following the relevant issues (this I don’t know, not being a trained C/S) or simply lack of conceptual understanding on their part. Likewise, some pcs were slower than expected and got sent to Ethics for possible out-ethics or some kind or PTSness – which for those just naturally slower pc’s was at best a dev-T cycle and sometimes just further wrong indications and BPC.

    I agree that this is one of the areas of tech that needs improvement, if nothing else than to put more emphasis on being aware of such atypical pcs, so as to avoid giving them a hard time of it, to say the least. And it’s easy to believe that the CoS is the most notorious violator of this since they are very rote about many things.

    In LRH’s defense, he tried to develop a route that everyone could follow and for the most part did a very good job of it. In any case, I’m glad to hear that you got the BPC cleared up! My understanding is that wrong indications (out list) is what creates the greatest amount of charge.

  481. My husband & I recently took on the task of helping an X-Scn (who is now into the Lord) with assists to help with a dire situation. We don’t care that he is not a Scn anymore or that he is praying to the Lord, we like him and he is worthy of help. If we were high and mighty KSW kind of Scn, we would automatically declare him A-J and not help him but the assists are helping and we consider him a good friend. I’ve evolved to a place where I don’t go into a hate/reject if someone is practicing something other than Scn, if it helps them feel better and do better and they are not harming someone, then ok with me (I still want to get standard tech auditing when I’m ready) but I’m not going to condemn someone to hell and damnation if they are being helped by something else. BTW, one of those members of MS 11 audited himself on OT 5, strictly forbidden by LRH, so how KSW really is this group?

  482. To balance out all of this “SP” discussion I want to point out that there actually IS a condition called “Suppressive Person”. People in this condition have the 12 characteristics described by LRH, are stuck on the time track, out of present time, continuously dramatizing evil intentions towards others, etc. This is a state of mind which, although rare, does exist as described in Scientology, the Psychopath Next Door, and elsewhere. People in this state do not accurately perceive good intentions which exist around them, but rather are dramatizing some long gone situation. These people have usually been in this condition for some time. I think that the existence of this condition is a real, technical fact.
    But then on the other hand, there is, in Church of Scientology practice, what I have come to think of as an “administratively adjudicated” “SP”. These “SPs” can allegedly become that way in a nano-second. …..One moment they may be highly commended by the COS as people who have a long track record of helping others, and the next moment they are declared to be an “SP” because of some act perceived to be an attack upon the “Church” by an official of the “Church”. Apparently, according to the COS, it is possible for such instantaneous transformations to occur despite L. Ron Hubbard’s description of the actual condition itself.
    The COS has done an A=A=A computation on these two separate and distinct (though unmentioned) meanings of the word “suppressive person”.
    In my opinion, this why Marty, Karen, Pierre Ethier, Trey Lotz, David Mayo, and many many others have be recognized as superb, highly trained, producing auditors one moment and then miraculously transformed into “SP”s the next by the COS.

  483. Tom Gallagher

    Nice manifesto Conan. You hit on some salient points. As I just walked in the house Mary Beth, my sister, voiced her conclusion that ‘organized Scientology’ creates a form of insanity.

    I agree.

  484. Well put, Alan

  485. The thing to keep in mind during all this confusion is just this; the primary opponent to the wide and standard use of LRH tech is David Miscavage, not Marty or the Milestone 2 crowd, nor any one else.DM is the only legitimate target, and I consider it vital that DM is continually exposed for the criminal that he truly is.

    In my opinion, exposing DM while at the same time promoting the existence of the ‘Bridge’ for any and all who reach for it, is the only route upon which the tech of Scientology can be restored.

  486. martyrathbun09

    What confusion? Yours? You are attempting to enter in bad control and regression by focusing – a forum frequented mainly by people who are integrating, evolving, and transcending – on devolving and opterming; the bane of Scientology. Have you read Memoirs, incidentally?

  487. martyrathbun09

    Did you read Frankl’s Man’s Search for Meaning?

  488. martyrathbun09

    Thanks for the song, one of our chilling out anthems during the ordeal.

  489. Marty – you continually project your own failings on others. You are arrogant, literal, obnoxiously rude and repeatedly accuse others of your own BS.
    You do not have the intelligence needed to help me. You are a baby spritually and appeal to those not as awake as yourself. There are obviously many.
    Scientology is a Science of Certainty. You went past far too many misunderstoods and meandered off into whatever.
    The people in MS2 are clueless babies.
    The people on ESMB are actually far more perceptive and aware than MS2 even as humble “wogs”.
    I think you have reached a higher state but you were a hired thug for DM when many of us created the Independent Scientology Field. I have committed far worse overts than your thuggery for DM. If you think that you need to do amends for your criminal thuggery then just go uptone.
    Possibly you have the presence to post and reply to this. Or you could just not-is and delete it.

  490. That’s a very nice story about the help you’re giving your friend.

  491. Old Secretary: Not sure what tradition or form of meditation you follow but the ones I’m familiar with do not have “detaching from their body” as a goal or even a side benefit.

    Most practitioners would call that zoning out – which isn’t the purpose.

    Frankl is right as far as I can tell — between stimulus and response IS space.

    Between the in breath and the out breath is a “gap” — and it is in THAT space that we begin to BE.

    Then as we become more experienced as practitioners/meditation the gap gets longer and longer … more space between the waterfall of thoughts/emotions.

    I would recommend reading Frankl’s book. It’s inspiring. And profound.

  492. Valeska guider

    Wow! I had no idea this was going on. Personally, as soon as I left the sea org I was done with being controlled and will never go there again. Hubbard did some pretty destructive things in his life including writing ksw and inventing the sea org. I think it is important to confront that he was far from perfect. My priority is my family. I am more happy now then I ever was in Scientology. Some of the things that Hubbard wrote make sense but alot don’t Scientology no longer runs my life and never will again. That is where I stand that is where my family stand. My family has been ripped apart by Scientology and I am relieved that that won’t ever be done to my kids !!!!!!!!!!!

  493. Old Secretary

    I did, but it was 43 years ago. Admittedly, I don’t remember it except that I liked it.

  494. martyrathbun09

    Ok. I just don’t think I would be so dismissive of its potential impact on someone deriving that ability from it. I know of a couple people whose character was transformed by gleaning that from the book and putting it into practice.

  495. martyrathbun09

    It is a wonderful family you are managing. I realized through watching you and Chris interact with the kids, as well as how the other parents in Clearwater this weekend interacted with them too, just how much there is to be learned by doing so.

  496. martyrathbun09


  497. Breppen,

    You: My husband & I recently took on the task of helping an X-Scn (who is now into the Lord) with assists to help with a dire situation. We don’t care that he is not a Scn anymore or that he is praying to the Lord, we like him and he is worthy of help. If we were high and mighty KSW kind of Scn, we would automatically declare him A-J and not help him but the assists are helping and we consider him a good friend. I’ve evolved to a place where I don’t go into a hate/reject if someone is practicing something other than Scn

    Me: Now, that is taking the high road!

    That is is called pandeterminism!

    With that attitude and viewpoint, people can make a real meaningful difference.

  498. martyrathbun09

    As I noted in conversations with Sarge – in Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior – who am I to tell a person how they ought to check out? Godspeed.

  499. Nice response – Godspeed to you too 🙂

  500. Old Secretary

    Windhorse, I suppose detaching from their body was a poor choice of words. Its detaching from the need to respond to stimulus without having the necessary space to consider ones response. Allowing the spiritual and analytical to maintain a senior position to the emotional or bodily. Roy Masters has a meditation technique which works very well for that. Foundation for Human Understanding.

  501. Tom Gallagher

    I’ll offer that LRH got at least one condition wrong: ‘Find out what you are’ can apply to individuals as well as groups.

  502. Thank you for posting this Marty.

    It really does put a spotlight on how things are across a wide spectrum of people interested in what Hubbard had to say.

    When I first heard of their site I mistakenly thought they had an opportunity to put something together that was innovative and highly inclusive.

    But alas, this would require a really broad viewpoint of the entire history and track of the subject.

    Your first book had me relook my own assumptions regarding this tumultuous subject.

    One of your posts, regarding “Handling the public individual” got me riled, until I saw why. This was part of the process of realigning so, so, so much study of this subject.

    You have prompted a debate and a suggestion or even a challenge to work out, for ourselves, how to present Scientology to the world, albeit, this may not be your intention.

    The above is at the root of where we are with this subject, for those who are in fact interested in indeed in presenting it to the world.

    To start MS2 and to think it does this, is the way back in.

    It takes courage to do what you have done.

    Thank you.

    If you have time to answer, do I skip the second book and go straight to Memoirs?

    (I am on the road a lot and have to parse my time into manageable bites, therefore the question.)

  503. Yes, my confusions as well as the confusions of others as expressed by them on this blog.

    I was shocked when I realized a splinter was occurring, and not really knowing why it was occurring, and the hostility surrounding it. It seemed to come out of the blue, sudden and violent; initially I found it difficult to grasp. I read this blog nearly every day, and it is obvious others here feel/felt the same as did I. To deny that probably every single person when first made aware of the splintering was confused about what was going on, would be telling a lie. Even right now, I’m not certain why the splintering and the violence; I still have to look and see and work it all out.

    One of my primary purposes is to help CofSers to look, and to see, and to decide on their own. I point to this blog as a source of sanity from those who have already looked and seen and have decided or are deciding. There is fresh air here. The splintering, or the violence that accompanied it, is not so pleasant.

    How you managed to find in my post any tendency to devolve or opterm is a mystery to me. That the exposure of DM to CofSers is vital and I think speaks for itself and to do so is not opterming, but pointing out the source of suppression and brings relief. That Scientology tech exists and is available out of CofS controls is also vital to promote, and brings hope. Both actions are vital to recover those stranded on the Bridge.

    I don’t know if you read my comments at all, but if you do/did, you can see that virtually every single comment I have ever made was to move in the direction of increasing the integration of the tech with the world around us, to join with the world around us, to dovetail what we have to offer with what others have to offer, to keep looking for means to move onward.

    No, I have not yet read Memoirs, not yet, but it is my intention to do so in the very near future, and I am looking forward to it.

  504. martyrathbun09

    The answers are in the book.

  505. martyrathbun09

    Yes, Reformation was more a plea for the types of people who set up MS 2 to please get busy delivering. The result of that effort is summarized in the current blog post. I would skip to the latest book.

  506. Old Secretary

    That’s great that the book has been so impactful. I am far from dismissive of it. Obsessions, compulsions and addictions are a life and death matter, tied up with stimulus and response in a big way. My point was the “space” referred to often needs to be increased. Any technique that allows a person to have more time to respond is valuable.

  507. Maintain a productive establishment to deliver. When the organizational justice tech was applied correctly, it worked to relieve and free. It was used so incorrectly, one could say it was not used at all. So the phrase “Justice Codes” may make people flash on what they have experienced, which is not what has been written. Something like a flunk on a life demo. Is it “right” to ever punish anyone for anything? Big debate with about, I don’t really know … 400,000,000,000,000 volumes written on it since the dawn of time? Probably most of those not used correctly, either. The resolution: Nobody ever thought it could be handled in an auditing session, through communication, not just the wrongs done, but the underlying motivations as well. Who wouldn’t want that?.

  508. martyrathbun09

    Ok. Have fun with your codes.

  509. martyrathbun09

    Thanks. That is the very point I was trying to make. I think we create problems when we try to enforce THE ONLY way.

  510. CommunicatorIC

    Milestone Two has removed its Membership stats from the publicly available portions of its webpage.

    Until sometime today, one could go to

    Then bring your cursor to the lower right hand corner of the page. You would find an Info box. The Info Box looked like:

    “Site Stats
    14 Members
    21 Files
    4 Forum Posts
    8 Groups
    4 News Posts
    0 Articles
    35 Photos
    0 Blog Posts
    0 Feedback Posts
    0 Events
    16 Sites
    0 Polls”

    The Info box has been removed. The number of Members, link to a Members information page, and other information have been removed.

    Original post:!-Miletsone-Two!-Independent-Scientology-Membership-Community!-30-per-year!&p=816307#post816307

  511. I’ll look forward to seeing them.

  512. Groups and thetans are apples and oranges, square holes and round pegs, but there is the element of expediency, or the practicality of the way out is the way through, applied to groups and mankind. You know we have international treaties that make no sense at all, and state laws that make even less sense? All of these are an attempt to handle individuals who make no sense, and some of whom are, in fact, downright evil. There is nation-wide debate of very serious import revolving about guns. You could design a perfect political system, place it in the hands of an evil individual, and it will come to be used to commit heinous crimes on a very broad scale. You can take a horrible political system, place it in the hands of very smart men, and have a nation in harmony. Ultimately is comes down to a thetan as an individual.
    There’re an incredible number of instances of “off-the-record” or “I didn’t hear you say that.” Because Scn is so new, and covers such enormous unknown territory, territory unknown to all of us, we don’t have “experienced people” who can accurately discern what is to be heeded, when, and what is to be “not heard”, when. Axiom of Scn 58 (and others too, of course – take your pick!). I still hold it is not a matter of what is written, but of it’s application. Far more damaging are violations of the Auditor’s Code, but that too is positively packed with “never’s” and “always’s”, and that, too, is routinely violated.

  513. Marty, the only one I care about is the Auditor’s Code. Well, maybe Code of Honor too, but my focus is on rational communication between two individuals (me and another), not justice or enforcement in a 100,000 person organization. – Carcha

  514. Thank you Marty! That means a lot to me!

  515. Tom Gallagher

    Prediction: Squirrel Busters Lite will have a very short life or an initial major purge. There’s someone inside the magnificent 11 who has caused a whole bunch of dramatizing shit.

    For anyone who can see, it’s blinding. That’s this persons specialty,

  516. Indeed it needs improvement and newcomers need proper high theta guidance. I can only speculate that perhaps some people think this way: “If I had to do Grade I, no way in hell you get to skip it!” 🙂

  517. Dear Marty,
    So sorry for being late, took me a day or two to un-shock from what you wrote and what followed.
    Before anything else, I will just say clear and loud: I am so sorry and sick to read all
    these horrible things written on you. So sad and unjust. What a shame!!
    I totally understand how you feel, been there. Been betrayed when least expected it. Almost totally crushed me.
    Like with many many others, you were there for me, to help, and encourage, regardless of anything.
    And you were there like a rock, a light-house, even as you were attacked viciously in the same time.
    And more than anything, you were not for sale. that’s all I care about, I need not test you beyond that.
    Please note, I am not a Yes Man, never have been. There are plenty of things I disagree with you. With Many
    others I agree. That is irrelevant and never a basis for Judgment.
    You have enormous credit for all you have done in last 4 years. And all the fire you confronted so that others could go free.
    So, I don’t and I won’t forget. And people with short memories…sorry. not in my neighborhood.
    All this, is of course a feedback to what you quote people writing/saying about you, instead of giving you full credit!!
    Last but not least, I do not wish to judge anybody, or contribute anything to hate and ARC breaks.
    Enough has been said. I do tend to agree with Claudio Lugli who indicated a 3rd party/Osa at work.
    I just wanted to stand by you Marty in this particular time. You deserve nothing less!!
    I have a few more things and thoughts which I will mail you privately. With your permission.
    Take good care, friend.

  518. We’re all nuts. Only some us are sane enough to admit it.

  519. If there had been more than 12 purchasing Memberships, (Two were purchased by founders Lana and Jim) I don’t think it would have become confidential classified information.

  520. Mary Rathernotsay

    Oh good…maybe someone else who never fully agreed with the Jokers & Degraders PL?
    Apologies to all the very serious- In spite of my utmost respect and admiration for this blog and for Marty, we simply cannot all be warriors.
    I’ll be the first to admit I’m no warrior and if Ron could laugh and make jokes continually (through-out almost every lecture) why can’t we all?
    I do love this blog and I do enjoy reading and learning from the diverse opinions, but I will never surrender my sense of humor to any cause or to any PL either.
    Like Orwell said, All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others. They get to laugh but we don’t?
    Yeah, not boxing oneself in with a label sounds mighty good to me.
    Labels can be used in some mighty strange ways I have seen.

  521. Mary Rathernotsay

    Speaking of funny, doesn’t Milestone 2 sound like some kind of rehab group?

  522. People who are trapped in a cult mindset will tend to revictimize themselves and others.

    True believers, “this is the only way” adherents, and fundamentalists in general are by definition cult members in my opinion.

    There is no body of human knowledge that I am aware of that does not contain challenges, differing interpretations or solutions, and so forth — at least not as far as I know, and not even in mathematics (which is closest to proving certain things are “true”).

    Hubbard was a deeply flawed human being. He also cobbled together and/or discovered many insights. Those insights can only be validated and brought into mainstream human endeavor if they escape the cult.

    As long as those insights do not escape the cult whether it be CoS, Inc. or a clone organization, they will only amount to yet another competing “religions” claiming to have the only truth. Religions all claim certain truths that are often multiply contradictory. Logically, they cannot all be right. And it may be that none of them are right.

    If Scientology has truth, it needs to come out of cult-status, emerge from the shadow of Hubbard, and prove itself in the open light of the free exchange of ideas and research. If it is true, it will stand to the challenge. It then will not need to be Hubbardism or even Scientology, any more than gravity is considered Newtonism or relativity is considered Einsteinism. Gravity and relativity are facts, and there are theories to explain those facts.

    Where Scientology has truth or falsifiable theories that can be tested, it is cheating the human race by locking it into a Stalinesque, totalitarian, insane group (3rd dynamic) structure. Keep the baby, let it grow up (evolve and go mainstream), and throw out the dirty bathwater.

  523. Marty, in re-reading the points above I can match names with the who’s…no surprises as far as I am concerned. these are the types I consider a drain on ones life!! XO

  524. Do you suppose chrismann9 is “open minded”?

  525. Pingback: To squirrel or not to squirrel? | Arrowhead, Brainwashing, Church of Scientology, Deception

  526. I can honestly say that being a parent has made me more of a complete person than I ever could have imagined. I learn more from my kids than I could ever hope to teach them.

  527. And in rereading the judgements made on you Marty it seems “standard real Scientology” does indeed have the inherent dogma of condemnation. It will only be a matter of time until they have their own declares. Bluerods, Strippedrods etc.

    Instead of wishing you well and agreeing to disagree, you have been cast into the mold that “standard tech” inevitably produces: us vs them.

    But, just as you have been slated for the psychological guillotine, it is somewhat inevitable that this same punishing condemnation will at some point be turned on each other, because that’s what “ethics tech” can become with human beings.

    The dig about ” now let’s meditate” is a passive aggressive revelation that will only secure their place in being isolated from society as Scientology is and always was.

    They will attract people who need an only way. Some people need an only way. That is just what neophytes do: need the security of being better than.

    You are guilty, Marty, of graduating from the madness. Condemnation for not being a true believer is considered free thinking out here in the free world.

    Well done, your needle has disappeared 🙂

  528. Some things just make me laugh. Do you suppose it had all gone un noticed by this man? This is why Hubbard thought of Clay Demos. I finally get it.

  529. Yeah, that was not too well inspected, at least not by me. It seems pretty stupid now that I look at it.

  530. Phil Pipieri

    Hmm, I did notice it once but was so prepared for it I just looked at ’em and said “Nope” with such finality I guess that set up how they’d approach me in the future. I just knew to avoid reg situations! LOTS of experience! Nudge,nudge, wink, wink. Know what I mean?

  531. Phil Pipieri

    Thank you, Sam. It’s a pleasure to know one is heard and that other’s also have seen the same, and come to similar conclusions. To quote the Moody Blues, “Keep on keeping on!” There’s no joy to keep us propelled towards our goal unless there are experiences to show us the way.

  532. Phil Pipieri

    Thanks! I knew it was a repeat, but I didn’t know from whom.:-)

  533. The sociopaths have gone unnoticed and undetected. There was missing data in Hubbard’s definitions. Because TONE level was made to be such a telling indicator and sociopaths can appear to be very uptone.

    Then it was clouded by “suppressive acts” opinions in the ethics book. Then, you had clears auditors OT’s and everyone else declared SP’s.

    You know who gets people declared in the Church? The sociopaths.

    I only know of ONE sociopath that was actually declared suppressive.

    Everyone else I know of that was declared was NOT a suppressive person OR a sociopath.

    People in the Church that were only 15 were given the power to sign death warrants.

    That is what an SP declare is in that culture, a death warrant.

  534. Sorry, there were other founding members in that new membership, not just two. Whatever, I am thinking we made a mistake. If they can herd all of the fanatics into one yard and keep them busy over there it is worth a donation from me.

  535. Phil Pipieri

    Re: “I think there should be enough data available for people who are considering getting into the CoS that they know what is coming,” Aside from the fact that the web is helping awareness a lot with this, wouldn’t Government regulation just be great , ONLY on the ORGanization? A pamphlet warning them of their rights, an Ombudsman at a government office whom they can contact for abuses, licensing of the counsellors. Whereas field people…what the hell -they’re just grassroots – no reg’s needed.

  536. Not like I’ m getting paid to enlighten people. Either is Marty. In fact, I am teetering on the brink of not caring at all. They are doing everyone a favor by herding them somewhere and running a day care center. It’s not like they are not providing a valuable service.

  537. Laughter! Oracle, I love your perspective 🙂

  538. martyrathbun09

    Thanks Hemi. I look forward to receiving your thoughts. They are always valuable, coming from an independent thinking individual who demonstrates a great deal of equinimity.

  539. martyrathbun09

    I think it doesn’t work by enforcement. It works by fully understanding why each element is a sine qua non of positive therapy.

  540. Old Secretary

    Thanks marildi. I just read the material in the link you provided. I definitely think there is a lot to be gained from a focus on “identities”.

  541. Thanks a lot, Dan. Really appreciate your response.

  542. Gerhard W. said: There is a simple test. You continue put an indispubservable fact that is contrary to believe in front of the true believer. The true believer has always a choice to deal with this ‘paradox’. To ‘solve’ the problem they often elect to shoot the messenger.

    That’s really a good test! And it makes immediatly clear if someone is open for discussion and tries to look for some truth or if someone just wants to be right without looking and force his believe onto others – no matter which subject.

  543. Well hey that is what I am thinking. Isn’t that common sense? Touchy touchy people about what to keep and what to throw away. Wasn’t that a right at one time? Shopping is a FUCKING RIGHT, not an obligation. How far down into the enforce band do we have to take this thing?

  544. Well done on telling your remarkable story in “Scientologists at War.” It reminded me of the theme in Return of the Jedi where Darth Vader finally turns against the emperor and back to the light side of the force. The Squirrel Buster footage certainly exposed the lunatic fringe of Scientology – surely an own goal for Corporate Scientology. It also gave me a sense of relief that I got out when I did.

    Thank you for clarifying your position regarding On 9 November 2012, there was a posting on this blog “Scientology Review by Steve Hall”.

    That post was a red flag for me because it echoes the sciento-think around hard sell and booming orgs – see particularly under the heading “Driving in public.” One of the most unpleasant features of org life and culture for me was seeing people treated like objects to be manipulated and exploited for the “greater good”. The very language used in many policies, directives etc. comes from this viewpoint, e.g. “body routing”, “driving in public”, “ruin him”. Thus, these issues come right out of the wording used in some policies and are foreshadowed by the terminology used in “Scientology Review by Steve Hall”.

    To truly help others psychologically and spiritually, I believe one ideally needs to proceed from a position of love and compassion, not exploitation. More than anything else, what induced me to give up on Scientology was the inner conflict between my personal sense of the importance of care and compassion on the one hand, and the org culture urging me to treat people like revenue streams on the other. I know there is a policy (called “Hard Sell”?) to the effect that care and compassion obligate Scientology staff to practice relentless hard sell. This is one policy I could never buy into. That harsh and ruthless aspect of Scientology that tries to get what it wants out of people, no matter what, always gave me the creeps. I met lots of good people on staff but there was always a sense of authoritarian and ruthless oppression coming from high up. I soon learned that one had to keep any criticisms or disagreements to oneself to stay out of trouble so there was never any real scope for discussing issues or putting things right.

    Regarding where the cult mindset might ultimately lead, Robert Munro’s books about his OBEs (astral travels or exteriorizations) are very informative. It seems that one’s life experience on the physical plane determines where one goes as a spiritual being in the afterlife. In his travels, Robert Munro was able to observe different communities in the astral world that were more or less isolated from each other and seemed to reflect different belief systems of this world. This is consistent with Gnostic teachings and reports from other researchers and indicates that a limited and narrow outlook on life leads to correspondingly limited and narrow opportunities for growth and development.

    It seems wise to drop the Scientology label. To a large extent, the public perception of Scientology is either “knowing” it is a cult, or having been sold something on the basis of exaggerated promises which (for whatever reason) never came to be. Whatever positive efforts and teachings the name once stood for, it has become forever invested with bad associations in the public mind. Symbols become charged by association with experience. On page 6 of The Master Game, Graham Hancock and Robert Bauval write:

    “In our many years of research into ancient cultures and, more specifically, their powerful symbolic art and architecture, it has slowly dawned on us that the true language of humans is not, as we previously thought, the spoken word, but the ‘silent language’ of symbols and signs that ‘speak’ directly to the mind and the soul of a person. And although everyone knows that a symbol is an image or an object that represents something, few are aware that some symbols can be converted into extremely powerful intellectual instruments that can have devastating effects on large huge numbers of people by charging them with intoxicating ideologies and stirring emotions. When a symbol, whether a tangible object, monument or building, or whether an intangible idea or logo is thus charged, then it becomes a talisman. Think of the Christian Cross, the Star of David, the Islamic Crescent or the Nazi Swastika and the disturbing effects such talismans have had throughout history and you will begin to get the gist of the elusive Master Game.”

    I happen to know that the swastika once had a positive sacred meaning. Well, imagine you were an expert in the underlying teaching and wanted to share it with the public in America or Europe. Even if these had once been known and respected as “Swastika teachings”, this name in itself would immediately be associated with Hitler, the Nazis and Fascism in the uninformed public mind. The iScientology splinter group may actually be doing you a favour. By identifying themselves with the name Scientology, they will expend a lot of their energy battling it out with the CoS and other splinter groups, perhaps affording you some peace of mind to carry on with more important work.

  545. Just vary the question.

  546. DUHH! This “You have to shop, pay and enjoy by command” is fucking crazy assed shit! Hey! Who is the spender? Enforced spending or “else”? Yeah! And some people are all for it!

  547. TO: You get more priceless by the post. Herding people and running a day care center. Too funny.

  548. Saag Paneer

    wasn’t it $30 annually at first? I now read $50 dollars on the Milestone 2 About Us page. They probably need more money to get the website “ideal”.

  549. Hi Dan, this “not too well inspected” -thing, what do you think
    LRH would say now, in hindsight, about a lot of his policies that
    obviously has hampered the forward progress of his philosophy
    and applied technologies to free men?

  550. They see you rollin’.

    They hatin’.

  551. Chuck, having just finished “Memoirs” I can say you are in for a treat. It gets better and better. I love the attention to detail on the various legal incidents; names, dates – it’s all there, and the way they are all put in the right context. Ditto the dialogue towards the end with Sarge is verbatim, so there can be no misunderstanding or misinterpretation of exactly what was said and how.

    Although completely impractical and probably discriminatory, it would be great if all contributors to this blog had read the 3 books as a pre-req to posting. It sure would make for an easier blog experience! I simply haven’t got the time to wade through 500+ comments, most of which would be null or invalid as already answered in the books.

    There are so many things spelled out that make recent history understandable. Just a couple of examples from dozens I could have chosen – the authorship and background to Disconnection reinstated. Similarly, regarding the infamous 1982 Mission Holders Conference: “In fact, LRH had advised or approved of virtually everything that was uttered by Miscavige and his management boys at that conference. And when they returned Miscavige sent a recording of the entire conference to Hubbard. Hubbard listened to the whole proceeding. He was so thrilled with their performance that he highly commended Miscavige and his managers and ordered that a transcript of the entire event be prepared and distributed widely amongst Scientologists. His wishes were complied with…” (Page 197)

    Best of all, the VERY recent activity on this very posting and elsewhere is discussed in a way that promotes better understanding of what’s really going on and the source of it. Great stuff.

    I’ve put up some more shelves; ready for the next one!

  552. Old Secretary, thanks for commenting and contributing your perspective to my post of Frankl’s quote. Also, I really appreciated and enjoyed the exchange between you, Marty and Windhorse that you prompted.

    I did catch your drift about that ‘space’ that Frankl talks about. The ‘space’ as you say, “is not a given.” IMO, it’s not a given because most people have long since forgotten that it’s there. This is why I mentioned in my comment to Marty that it was obvious to me that he had become ‘mindful’ of this ‘space.’

    Since the quote was share with me I have shared it with numerous others and have observed that the concept articulated is typically received as being quite profound. I suspect this is the case because it so very simply reminds one of the obvious that was forgotten. It’s like telling someone, “By the way, you can also use your mouth and tongue for speaking. They’re not just for the processing of food. Once again becoming mindful of that ‘space’ between stimulus and response is incredibly powerful as it gives one a means to abort the default programmed response that is Fear and choose to respond from Love instead.

    Note: I am at a point now where I see that there are, regardless of how many specifics, divisions, dissections and translations are added, only ever two choices between which to choose. One is Love and the other is Fear. Choosing Love brings peace, choosing Fear brings chaos. Therefore, if one is not at peace, regardless of the seeming chaos around them, they are running the default response program i.e., Fear.

    Being reminded of the ‘space’ between stimulus and response gives one a chance of finding and once again choosing Love. That’s powerful stuff!

  553. Dio, thanks so much for taking the time to elaborate. I am very happy for you it’s wonderful to hear about your success with auditing and that you’ve been getting better since. I too had much success with the auditing I received and, like you, I have been getting better since. Auditing was the exact thing I needed when I got it. Haha…as it turns out, I now recognize that I always, without fail, get the exact thing I need when I need it.


  555. The TED talk at the following link may be of interest and relevance for this thread. It touches on the arrogance of fundamentalism and how fundamentalism pulls us away from fruitful questions and into heartless dogma:

  556. There was nothing disrespectful to Dan Koon in my post.

    This really is an example of censorship and obsessive control of communication. Let it go. Let people talk to each other.

    There are a million ways to talk to Dan Koon on the Internet. I’ll get it done here or 999,999 other ways.

    Please reconsider publishing my post.


  557. martyrathbun09

    You flunked the living room test. Sorry, but I gotta respect my visitors.

  558. Hi Marty and everybody,

    It’s been a good while since I’ve checked this blog, let alone made any posts (I used to write about Buddhism under the names “vajracutter” and “lightbodhi”).

    I just want to say that I am saddened by the recent division that has occurred within the Independent movement, as well as the personal attacks that have gone along with it. I’m also surprised to see some of the names that are involved, although I do recognise that many were dedicated members with very strong views here.

    Coming from outside the religion, it seems to me to be a detrimental move to organise in this way as it’s bound to create further sectarianism and bias, rather than capturing the spirit of inquiry, discovery, and kinship that seemed to inform many of the earlier writings of LRH. In its place are strange checks and an air of cliquishness that would make a curious bystander such as myself have serious doubts about the group from the outset.

    Marty, I can fully understand your wish to drop the whole label “Scientologist” in the first place, as in this world, it’s become very constrictive. I believe the main point is that the idea itself is still alive and still has a possibility to flourish. However, hopefully at some point the name will be able to be reclaimed, at least in part.

    Sometimes I personally feel like dropping the label “Buddhist” as it comes with its own set of limitations and expectations attached to it, yet I still hope to adhere to the spirit of compassion and wisdom that underlies it.

    From the Scientology material I have read and lectures I have listened to, it is clear to me that Hubbard was a complex spiritual man, where sometimes one is compelled to read between the lines and get to the essence of what he was saying, rather than just taking a line from here or there and literally agreeing with him on the surface of it; he seemed quite dynamic in that regard.

    At least, in Buddhism, there is plenty room to disagree or differ in opinion to one’s teachers (and the Buddha himself) whilst retaining respect and being able to progress. As an important saying goes, “rely on the meaning, not on the words”.

    And of course, I take the claims that he’s the only one to have broken through, with a grain of salt (he’s got varied statements on this matter e.g. Phoenix Lectures). So in any case it makes reform groups such as this to have a very limited appeal for many others.

    And finally, I think that a narrow world-view is problematic for spiritual seekers as it has the power to stop people from attaining realisations, no matter which religion or system one adheres to; I believe it’s important to try and keep open – there are always plenty of surprises out there!

  559. Amos Alanzo, you can contact me through and maybe I can answer your questions.

  560. martyrathbun09

    A comment reflecting a number of virtues emanating from the noble eight-fold path.

  561. Incredible post in every respect!

  562. Just sent you an email through


  563. burnedbutnotbitter

    I have not been on your blog for a month, but felt a disturbance in the force last night (really!) and opened up to this post. I then did research on Milestone 2 and the 11 founding members. They have in the main been your supporters so I see the problem. They should have at least asked you to be an advisor of sorts. They are actually going to need you, no matter their intentions. They do not see that, at the moment, but they will. Expect this.

    I went back and watched the Roast Beef Production video. Your wife comes across as a shining beacon. What an amazing face when she speaks!

    And the wedding photos were a very nice counterpoint to all this drama.

    I am Jewish. I can never go back to the CoS because of the labor/concentration camp/rpf- whatever you want to call it.

    Carry on, My regards, Jill Rappaport

  564. Right on, Gail!

  565. Freedom Fighter

    Been too busy to comment in a while, but I couldn’t let this one pass. WTF?! Did these guys not learn anything? Or maybe they’re actually working for Davey still and this is their way of baiting the hook. Whatever. The only purpose of organized religion, no matter what the flavor, is control — bad control. Any promise to the contrary is a lie.

  566. Sunshine Disinfects

    Plus 1ooo

  567. But the ones who really got the EP would probably tell the guy he was missing out! 😉

  568. Yes. That data combined with the processes in COHA seem very promising.

  569. “Thank God I am standing outside of this GMP.”
    I guess you mean GPM?
    I’ve heard the accusation thrown at Marty from the very beginning that he was playing to one side of a GPM (the source whispers like a hidden wind…) and it’s bullshit.
    There is nothing laudatory about sitting on a fence being ‘pan-determined’ while one ‘side’ is attacking your friends (ssuming you are able actually make a decision as to who your friends are in the first place – pan-determinism is one thing but sitting in a perpetual maybe is not the same thing).
    I hope I’ve expressed clearly enough what I’m trying to say. If I failed then Dante did a far better job:
    “The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.”

  570. Steve Hal and Haydn James have already posted their lack of support for Milestone Two as written, and Lana’s sidebar on her site ( indicates that 4 of the proposed 11 “founding members” have so far dropped out.

  571. That would be Steve Hall, not Steve Hal.

  572. There is fraud connected to the site:

    “As well, there were falsehoods surrounding its release. Milestone Two was not constructed by “eleven founding members.” –

    See more at:

    However, memberships were sold to people based on this false report.

    That means it was also a financial scam. No word on refunds yet.

  573. I presume someone from their justice committee will sort it all out.

  574. martyrathbun09

    Your blade never dulls. Your intellect only ever gets sharper.

  575. Hello Sam.
    “There is nothing laudatory about sitting on a fence being ‘pan-determined’ while one ‘side’ is attacking your friends. “
    Who was attacking whose friends?
    All I see are people who wish (some are even desperate about it) to change the course of Scientology.
    Why should I choose one side (or make a decision with “100% certainty”) based on rumors, to little data and no personal knowledge of the people involved?
    We all try to complete our cycles of action somehow. Some of them we as-is in session, some of them we as-is in 3rd Dynamic Auditing (like on this blog), some of them are worth continuing and we feel we’re not ready yet.
    Thank you for talking to me.
    Be assured, that I will not “choose” sides based on fragments of data.
    Things need time to fully come into view.
    There are good people on the list.
    They share one common dream – keeping Scientology applied for the future.
    I share this dream.

  576. I call bullshit. Grown people who consider themselves great writers can’t read plain English? Where’s the courage to say in plain, declarative sentences that they were wrong.

  577. “As well, there were falsehoods surrounding its release. Milestone Two was not constructed by “eleven founding members.” –
    Who could have known it all.
    Too bad it took almost a week for this clarification.

  578. martyrathbun09

    What is this in response to?

  579. martyrathbun09

    You would need an IQ that exceeds double digits to fully appreciate the wisdom of Sam, apparently.

  580. OK. I just don’t follow the invitation to a “Us vs. Them” ideology. Been there, have seen it’s fruits. And wasn’t it a blog post of you some time ago?

    There is a process in COHA,, SOP 8, No 2 – Certainty Processing.
    Maybe this theory is needed to appreciate my views (along with Tao Te Ching).

    BTW, I am looking forward for your next book as expressed here:

  581. martyrathbun09

    You are so locked into the Scientology implant you can’t see that you are accusing me (by implication) of precisely what your friends are attempting to do to me.

  582. Steve’s and Haydn’s apologias. The constitution and eleven founding member “why I’m a member” statements were on for nearly a week.

  583. Marty, this wasn’t meant as accusation.
    And you still say that I would have some “sides” or who do you mean with “my friends”?
    I have ARC for points of view regardless of the source.
    That’s why I can see good in what you do, without at the same time having a need or compulsion to reject the good in the work of others.
    Like in the Chinese fairytale you posted some time ago with the guy who did not take water from the criminal. I’m not that guy.

    Sorry for one thing: English is not my language.

  584. martyrathbun09

    Look all that up in Science of Survival.

  585. martyrathbun09

    Thanks Just Me. It showed as in response to my post. Hell, if I had you saying that to me I would need re-evaluate my entire thetan.

  586. LOL! No, your thetan is just fine. 🙂

  587. martyrathbun09


  588. I thought the explanation by Steve was pretty clear. People were consulted about being “founding members” and agreed. But once that happened they were not consulted about anything else. It would seem that two of them didn’t even know what they were founding members of. That they didn’t actually found anything, they just lent their names and bios. Then they were bypassed.

    I myself was under the illusion these eleven people were holed up in a pentagon type of situation around a huge table burning the midnight oil with books spread out all over the table and a huge admin scale taped to the wall. Sort of a congress in session.

  589. found·er n.
    One who establishes something or formulates the basis for something: the founder of a university; the founders of a new nation.

    It seems there was one founder, not eleven. Anyway, M2 is just coming out of NON E, probably moved right up to danger. Lana just needs to bypass normal habits and routines now. Admit there is no group activity. there is just her. She didn’t need a group or eleven names to get this thing going. She did it all independently. What’s the shame in that?

    When Hubbard bought the Fort Harrison in Clearwater he certainly didn’t purchase it under the “Church of Scientology”. He cloaked it in a way that people could digest it. The Church of Scientology purchased the building under the names “Southern Land Development and Leasing Corp” and “United Churches of Florida” Inc.

    In 1965, the Rolling Stones wrote their hit song “(I Can’t Get No) Satisfaction” at the hotel. They were Oracles! Look at all of the people sent to the MAA, because of OTHERS CHARGE, on the second dynamic. I think that is the reason a lot of people don’t want to jump on this “ethics committee” band wagon. A person is supposed to come into to Scientology to handle THEIR OWN charge. But ends up getting sent to ethics to address SOMEONE ELSE’S CHARGE. Look at how many people are kicked out because someone else got restimulated!

    The thing is, we ALREADY HAVE an ethics and justice committee. It is called “local government”. Police. District Attorneys. Mayors. Federal Courts.

    Hubbard did NOT want local government meddling in his affairs. It is written right in the ethics book as a suppressive act if you turn a Scientologist into one of those arenas. So, he set up his own local police force.

    How the hell are you going to do that out here? Post on the Internet “HCO BRING ORDER”?

  590. Carcha, always good to hear from you. It’s been a while, but your wisdom once again is astonishing! 🙂

  591. There is just ONE thing I am still struggling with, and perhaps someone can explain it to me. In Lana’s most recent publication, “Guilty as charged”, she writes:

    Two key points that seem to have caused bypassed charge were: a) the inclusion of PTS A-J checks in the constitution (included simply as a deterrent to OSA, but misconstrued some effort to do something else entirely), and b) a Justice Committee also seems to have been a hot subject (only included as a last port of call if some new little Hitler takes the helm), but this too is a hot topic based on the amount of injustice that has occurred in the field over the last 30 years.

    NOTE: “but this too is a hot topic based on the amount of injustice that has occurred in the field over the last 30 years.”

    The field? Out here? Why would be people be upset about injustice out in the field? I thought the injustice’s people were disturbed about were injustice’s in the Church?

    And, how could we all misconstrued the purpose of an A-J check?

  592. Karen, you are so bright. 🙂 Why don’t I go to Flag and re-do my TR’s and Objectives 8 times, just to see I really got em or not? 🙂 Is that the bottom line of insanity or what? 🙂 Does that qualify as a tech degrade? Is it really tech? If LRH was alive he would have a heart attack if I told him Tone 40: “LRH. Guess what? I did my Drug Rundown 14 times! I *think* this time they said it worked!” 🙂 Oh my gosh!!!! 🙂

  593. We be dancin’ like we know how to dance 😉

  594. Oracle, the thirty years of injustice is referring to the church and my experience in use of A-J and Help and Control had been a standard action for exec qualification. I guess that’s where that comes in.

  595. Marty mentioned that his next book will be how to graduate from Scientology and as I read this post I think it has a lot of qualities of one who has graduated. Great post!

  596. So, it’s been a few days since this post came out and people have had plenty of opportunity to communicate, clarify or whatever else they needed to do. Now that the shock and awe affect has dissipated, I re-read this post again and I have to say that there is a lot of intelligent communication in this post. I know the quotes were demonstrative of your arriving at a point that you didn’t want to wear the title of Scientologist anymore and I think I missed it originally because of the shock factor.

    Although I don’t have the same intimate association with Scientologists as you do, I have come to a similar conclusion for myself in terms of the source of attacks and their efforts at trying to be the best Scientologist they can be. If people can read through the lines a bit they will see a lot of compassion and granting of beingness in this post. In my opinion, the Indies have become serious about the subject. I guess we are each allowed to create our own game, my preference is one that has quite a bit less turbulence in it.

  597. This is for you Marty and you can decide whether to share it or not. I thought it might be of interest to you.

    1a. Good news Milestone Two defanged 🙂
    Posted by: “Kim Baker” kb_11_11
    Date: Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:22 am ((PDT))

    Dear IVylisters,

    When something appears as a positive initiative, but contains embedded harmful memes, it is necessary to express one’s objection to it, which I did in several places. Actually, I more than expressed it, I blasted it.

    The Milestone Two initiative contained several such lethal implants, restimulated and enturbulated a lot of people, and really upset the field.
    I have no doubt of the good intentions of most of those involved, but it was a mistake, in the form in which it was presented.

    The good news is that it has now been de-fanged, blowing much charge. L/D BD, F/N all round. 🙂

    This clears the way for the good stuff happening to continue.

    KUDOS to Steve Hall and Haydn James for doing the right thing. Kim


    *Milestone Two: FAIL**
    **Responses by Thoughtful and T. Paine (in that order) to the launch of Milestone Two.
    ** **
    **Milestone Two is dead. It died a swift, violent death.** **That doesn’t mean it can’t rise from the ashes and perhaps it will.** **But it was bound to die, unfortunately, because no one noticed that planted inside were several cases of black gunpowder just waiting for the smoking butt of an unfiltered Marlboro:
    **1. It asked for money.**
    **2. It mentioned A to J checks.
    **3. It included some kind of ethics committee.** **There were other errors, but those are certainly explosive enough by themselves. Due to a series of gross misrepresentations and faults the launch of the Milestone Two program has caused more harm than good.
    Therefore I am making it clear that Milestone Two does not have my support.
    **As well, there were falsehoods surrounding its release. Milestone Two was not constructed by “eleven founding members.”
    **To “found” something means to construct it.
    **As an artist, I can tell you that it takes courage to create something because you have to sometimes endure criticism and deal with the consequences. It is more comfortable to create something within a group.
    But if a group didn’t really create it, then claiming that is wrong.
    **Milestone Two was developed by one person. She conceived of it; it was her vision. She is an amazing administrator and single-handedly wrote the constitution, purpose, and objectives. She completed the application as a non-profit organization. She pushed the application through government channels in addition to everything else she had on her plate, and all in testament to her considerable abilities as an executive.
    **But I cannot allow my name to be attached to the project as a “founding member” because I didn’t personally work on the project beyond giving my two cents on a few issues. Most of my ideas were not even used. For example, I thought a paid membership organization was unnecessary at this time. But I liked the idea of having a platform where people could coordinate on voluntary projects since I needed help myself on a Scientology-related project or two. I liked the idea of having a place where I could post a project I needed help on and anyone who wanted to help could simply follow the steps of the project on their own cognizance. Cool idea!
    **So when the project was initially described to me in March I offered to help figure it all out. In a subsequent conversation I suggested the name
    (1 minute of my time) and secured a domain (about 9 minutes of my time).** **That initial 10 minutes constituted the bulk of my hands-on contribution.
    In contrast, I offered to conceive, engineer and construct the entire project. But as I clearly explained at the time, it would be 4 – 5 months before I could afford any time for the project.
    **Most people have seen and heard very little of me this year. That is because I quietly took leave from my normal business activities at the start of 2013 to complete a strategic project I started two years ago.
    Since then I have been working 24/7 on that new project whilst also raising a baby. There is no way I could interrupt that to take a minimum of two additional months to sort out Milestone Two. And two months is what I estimated the Milestone Two project would require from me.
    **She, however, did not want to wait, so went forward and did it all herself. That’s fine. It’s a free country. Nobody needs my permission nor expertise to do something.
    **The fact is I could not afford to take any time off for Milestone Two, and indeed I did not take off any time for Milestone Two. I never actually worked on the project—AT ALL but was quietly minding my own business when the whole thing exploded on Friday. What was I doing Friday? Driving across the country to Mike Rinder’s wedding in Clearwater. I drove 1,100 miles straight to Mike and Christie’s wedding, attended the same, then got back in my car at midnight and drove another 1,100 miles back home. I would have liked to stay longer. I slept a few hours and then got up to help care for my new baby and sort out this mess.** **My point is there is a world of difference between me hammering out all the details of a project full time, and me acting as a sounding board via email at 3 AM… which might constitute helpful, though uninformed, advice.
    Yet “helpful uninformed advice” does not constitute material contribution nor merit the notion of being a founder AT ALL.
    **Is an organization like Milestone Two even needed at this time? Or ever?
    Should it really charge a fee? Should it have an ethics committee? What if it gets misused? How will it be perceived? Will it garner support? I did not research the answers to any of these questions. I did not go through any thought processes. I did not weigh any options. I did not get my hands dirty nor explore different business models. I did not conduct any surveys.
    I did not draw out any flow charts, nor construct diagrams of ways it might work. I did not spend long hours sorting things out. I did not look at alternatives nor come to any decisions or conclusions. Why? Because Milestone Two was not my project—not because I wasn’t willing to help, but because the person with the vision went on without me, which is her right.
    **Presenting me therefore as a “founding member” was grossly inaccurate and was a false representation. Yes, several people including me put in a little time giving some feedback and advice about her ideas. I could stand on the sidelines and give feedback and advice to a builder. Does that mean I’m doing the construction? No way. Should my name go on a brass plaque as “founder” or even “founding member”? Of course not.** **When order goes in, confusion blows off. Maybe some of the noise surrounding the launch of Milestone Two is confusion blowing off due to order going in. Personally, I doubt it. I think most of the noise is actually due to the faulty launch of a flawed product. The flawed product itself was enough to create a firestorm of protest. And that was compounded by an ill-conceived attempt to float the launch of Milestone Two on the backs of several personalities—a sure recipe for disaster! Most of the personalities in question were not even in comm with each other and certainly they were not working even remotely as any kind of coordinated team. The opinions of one do not even remotely represent the opinions of the others, nor the official position of Milestone Two, whatever that is.
    These individuals weren’t even working as an un-coordinated team. They simply continued to do whatever those particular individuals were wont to do—communicating, being there and/or even causing trouble.
    **Had this been my project, I like to think I would have been there to pull it back from the brink of disaster—such as the ill-fated attempt to position it as the product of a group of eleven master criminals. WTF? I had never even read this article. I heard about it from friends at the wedding Saturday night along with a summary of the movie. I just took it off line.
    **Releasing a new program on the back of personalities is always a bad idea, since it sets up each personality as an obvious target for attack by anyone who does not like the program. And as well, the folly of even one person then stains every other person associated with it as well as the project itself.** **I reject the Milestone Two program. It does not have my support.** **Steve Hall**
    ** **
    **From Haydn James:**
    **There is no doubt that Scientology contains the seeds of its own destruction – the Church of Scientology is all the proof anyone could need of that fact. But I wouldn’t be an independent Scientologist if I didn’t think those destructive points could be defined and avoided in the future.
    After all, a great deal of work has been done by many on that subject — it is really what the various blogs and articles have been discussing over the last few years, separating the good from the bad.
    **And though there are a number of such destructive seeds, among them you would have to list the ethics/justice system, the money system (corruption) and management/mismanagement.
    **Scientology did not invent the subject of ethics and I am not referring to the general subject or even the tech by which someone can pull themselves up by their boot straps if they so desire. I am talking about Scientology’s organizational ethics/justice system. It is clear that right from its implementation that system worked for the organization but against, and to the detriment of, individuals. A huge mistake. And the number of its victims only grew over the years to utterly disastrous proportions.
    **A technology that is supposed to empower individuals and make them more self or pan-determined cannot also have a system that shoves peoples’ faces in the dirt and forces them to kowtow. The two utterly work against each other. In all my years on staff I never saw any real benefit from the network of ethics officers. I mean, who gets to decide what is right or wrong, ethical or un-ethical?** **To survive I believe independent Scientology must have no ethics or justice system.
    **The financial abuses within Scientology are myriad, everything from the FSM system to the IAS and other forms of fund raising. In number, money abuses rival only technical abuses.** **A book could be written on the conflict of interest within the FSM system alone. I mean, does an FSM refer a person to an auditor for the benefit of the person or the enrichment of the FSM? Conflict of interest is the only conclusion I can come to. What happened to helping someone simply for the sake of it or, more importantly, for the benefit of the person you are trying to help?
    **To make it independent Scientology must stay clear of any corrupting finance influence or even the appearance of such. In my view that also means membership fees. Any donations MUST be and must remain utterly voluntary.
    **As I have stated before, I believe Scientology cross-ordered itself to death. In an “everything must be done yesterday” frenzy, it drove its organizations into the ground and its individuals along with it.** **Independent Scientology is and should be a grass roots, bottom-up movement. You just can’t build it from the top down. The so-called “Ideal Org” program is just the latest in a long line of disastrous attempts to build Scientology from the top down. It is never going to work.
    **The important things are done on the ground, auditing and training those who want Scientology, for their benefit and only for their benefit, from such actions groups form and things go from there in an organic way. It is the only way forward.
    **As for management or anything that looks like management – forget it. It connects up with the ethics/justice point made above — leadership has to have a justice system to maintain itself and there goes the neighborhood.** **So, no management or anything that resembles it.
    **Unfortunately, whether intended or not, Milestone Two contains elements of the three seeds I list above or their appearance or the potential for their development. For those reasons I cannot support it.** **That doesn’t mean I and my wife don’t remain dedicated to serving others and seeing that the subject of Scientology survive in a viable, non-destructive form.
    **Haydn James

  598. Lars, I think he would have taken advantage of the Internet and digital technology and not fixed himself in stone circa 1986. He always tried to adapt and move forward, not that he was always successful, but he was always trying something new, trying to make things better. Policy, he said (paraphrased) had to be applied sensibly. Tech was to be applied to the letter but policy you had to use your head to make it work. (Of course he also said that auditing is what you an yet away with.)

  599. Pingback: Scientology and Sociopathy | Moving On Up a Little Higher

  600. knatherthomas

    The comfort found by wrapping one’s self in superiority seems to be the product of LRH’s “the power of secret knowing.” Although this statement is blue on blue and “intended” only as a GO basic, its spirit infuses all of Scientology. The firm belief that one “knows” more than one’s fellows creates a chasm between a Scientologist and everyone he knows. Yeah, everyone including other Scientologists. It is here that the whole status thing or I’m more worthy than you business is firmly rooted. If one is more highly trained, then one knows more than those folks who have not done the training. If one is in the SO one knows more than public or Class V staff. And then there’s the cavalcade of named statuses based on cash donations. Ugh. All of this is covered eloquently in Animal Farm, which I highly recommend as the original source material for “some are more worthy than others” thinking. What happened to Scientology being the game where everyone wins? Or the ARC triangle being used to actually help people? I spent years pushing this “knowing” it would work only to discover that all that matters these days is my unquestioning “loyalty” to a perversion of the church I joined in 1970. The good news for me as a result of openly leaving the CofS in 2013 and finally coming to grips with the fact that I don’t “know” what I thought I knew is now the chasm between me and the rest of humanity has melted away. Losing that buffer was freeing. It’s nice to be part of the real world again. Thank you, Marty for your genuinely kind encouragement to move on.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s