Cult Leader Personalities

The following is a list of personality characteristics of authoritarian personalities (which according to the article in which the list appears, most cult leaders display) from  the book “Captive Hearts, Captive Minds” by Madeleine Landau Tobias and Janja Lalich.

Traditional elements of authoritarian personalities include the following: 

-the tendency to hierarchy 

-the drive for power (and wealth) 

-hostility, hatred, prejudice 

– superficial judgments of people and events 

-a one-sided scale of values favoring the one in power 

-interpreting kindness as weakness 

-the tendency to use people and see others as inferior 

-a sadistic-masochistic tendency 

-incapability of being ultimately satisfied 


The context for the list can be found at this link, Cult leader sociopathy.

304 responses to “Cult Leader Personalities

  1. Another good, helpful checklist to add to the sociopathic/narcissistic traits from the recommended reading, “The Sociopath Next Door.”

    I am beginning to find “The 12 Characteristics” of 1966 conspicuous for what they do NOT reveal about the sociopathic authoritarian.

    Only when I expand the definition of anti-social characteristic #12 – “…does not respect the property of others,” to include my own dreams, my own time, my own efforts – as things the sociopathic influence on the group came to nullify, does that set of characteristics even start to encompass enough of the abuses to make sense. As in those abuses that are justified by that authoritarian-constructed group ‘moral’ code disguised as the Scientology “Ethics Codes.”

    The early beginnings of Scientology were anti-authoritarian. That’s what roped us in.

  2. Their follow-up work, “Take back your life” has a more detailed list with more specific and easily recognisable traits. I recommend it to anyone leaving Scientology. When reading it you may feel that it has nothing to do with you and does not reflect your experience at all. Later on down the road, when you pick it up again, you are suddenly able to see what they are talking about (that’s how it’s been for me, at least). You may also feel like they studied Scientology and based their book on it, only to find yourself rocked later by the understanding that cults really are more alike than not.

    I think it’s an absolute must-have in every former cult member’s library, and an essential tool in healing.

    It’s only available in paperback, but it’s worth every cent.

  3. The link is quite a read.

  4. Robert Almblad

    The article from Landau Tobias and Janja Lalich is an excellent confirmation that elements (traits) of the bank are exactly the same from one psyco to the next. That is how you can ID a psychopath:common traits. Individuals are unique, there are no common pigeon holes to stick them in.

    In the end, the story of Miscavige’s psychopathic reign will predictably read as these authors say:

    Ultimately, “the psychopath must have what he wants, no matter what the cost to those in his way.”


  5. “The early beginnings of Scientology were anti-authoritarian. That’s what roped us in.”

    That was the public PR. Tales aboard Apollo were total authoritarian. From the beginning it was total authoritarian. Those close to Hubbard in the beginning were terrified of him. That includes family.

    Physical punishment was inculcated on the Apollo. Bolivar, the call for violent willing hounds was written in 67.

    We just didn’t see it. Because of our trust and goodness. It was inconceivable to our trusting minds that their was a paranoid diabolical mind on the other end of our lives getting better.

    Our goodness denied the implications of Bolivar. Bolivar was no metaphor. Bolivar was real. And Bolivar is real. Just ask anyone being chased down by the willing hounds.

  6. Bingo!
    That about sums it up my friend.

  7. Oh snap! David Miscavige, this one’s got your name written all over it …and the world knows it.

  8. One of the elements listed above
    -a one-sided scale of values favoring the one in power
    “The greatest good” formula is one of the trickiest “slight of hand” precepts insidiously embedded in one’s thought.
    For 2 extra decades “The greatest good’ made me over ride my own common sense, my own eye witness and personal experience of atrocities ~
    It was the greatest good !
    The “greatest good” definition actually means, only the *GREATEST GOOD* for the *Mother Church* even if families are broken up, even if children die disconnected from parents, even parent can see their child only 11 times in 15 years….
    The only missing element I would have added to the above characteristics of CULT leaders is BLAME.
    The Church of Scientology is a culture of BLAME as dramatized by David Miscavige. It points the finger while the pretense within per the references is that one is totally and fully responsible on anything that happens, the next sentence is “They pulled it in on themselves.”
    Miscavige is never to blame ~~ It’s those SPs out there !
    The WHY is GOD !
    The *Church* is flawless and never apologizes, never admits to any error.
    *YOU* pulled it in !

  9. DM in a nutshell.

  10. Put in Scientology terms, it can be hard to confront the mass of what is described by those sociopathic truisms. But it has to be looked at.

    People who are “in” are shut off from truth by fears, an aversion to “entheta” (no matter how true), and the reality of an ethics system that is designed to stifle dissent and doubt.

    Still, the rope can only stretch so far before the limits of not-is-ness are reached and exceeded.

  11. Karen, I think you just lasered in on the gist of the matter: Power. The motivation of power over others for its own sake. DM and his remaining henchmen are actually blinded morally by their own compulsive thirst for power. But they do know that the best way to put over a lie is to hide it amidst a whole bunch of beautiful truths. They do it well.
    However, you can’t fool all of the people all of time and sooner or later there is hell to pay. DM and of those cats are going to reap the whirlwind.

  12. Wow! I hope you know how much you are appreciated.

  13. The most difficult force to bear is the ser fac. Because there is always a way to make you wrong. Always. If your goal is to “be right”, you have already set yourself up for an unattainable goal. I think the only way to be free is in a willingness to be totally wrong.

    Frankly I don’t think Hubbard cared whether he got applause from you or not. Or me. You need to ser fac on Hubbard, let it fly.

    If you REALLY want to to run the ultimate ser fac though. Better Hubbard in think instead of throwing stones. That is too easy. YOU develop a better way. Upstage him.

    Frankly, I am through with efforts to pull people away from their addictions to ser fac on Hubbard. If it wasn’t him it would be their local priest or mother in law or WHATEVER. Hippies or Jews or Blacks or WHATEVER. The PURPOSE is senior to the policy.

  14. People that do not have a WANT and NEED do not get mixed up with Scientology. Hubbard didn’t create your WANTS and NEEDS he only promised to meet these. Scientology attracted a whole lot of needy and wanty people. I wish some people could realize if they were not in some wanty or needy condition they would not have fallen across this path, and stop BLAMING BLAMING BLAMING for their needy ness and wanty ness.

    The whining and complaining are at high volume.

    Well what about YOU and your needyness wantingness self?

  15. Do you know what the game has come to? WHO is the biggest victim.” I am a looser in this game.” “Very enthusiastic loser! ”

    I am not EVER going to take that ribbon home! No No No That ain’t me Babe! But you can sell this shit to whole lotta people. I am going North. I am not a leader or a prophet.

    I am a simple student.

    Sorry I am not a member of the losing game. I am a member of the healing game.

  16. I have a solid grip on PURPOSE.

    I am not here to ser fac as a purpose.

    To BLAME as a purpose.

    To discount us or others as a PURPOSE.

  17. The Profile of a Psychopath:

    1. A charismatic leader who…increasingly becomes the object of worship.

    “A cult cannot be truly explored or understood without understanding its leader…
    In examining the motives and activities of these self-proclaimed leaders, it becomes painfully obvious that cult life is rarely pleasant for the disciple and breeds abuses of all sorts. As a defense against the high level of anxiety that accompanies being so acutely powerless, people in cults often assume a stance of self-blame. This is reinforced by the group’s ma- manipulative messages that the followers are never good enough and are to blame for everything that goes wrong.

    “Demystifying the guru’s power is an important part of the psyche- educational process needed to fully recover. (2) It is critical to truly gaining freedom and independence from the leader’s control.
    The process starts with some basic questions: Who was this person who encouraged you to view him as God, all-knowing, or all-powerful? What did he get out of this masquerade? What was the real purpose of the group (or relationship)? “

    Excerpt from HCOB of 5 September 1978 ANATOMY OF A SERVICE FASCIMILE


    “An idea is the thing most easily substituted for a thetan. An idea doesn’t have any mass connected with it basically. And it appears to have some wisdom in it so it’s very easily substituted for a thetan. Thus the idea, the stable datum he has adopted, is substituted for a thetan.”

    That which is not confronted and inspected tends to persist. Thus in the absence of his own confronting mass collect. The stable datum forbids inspection. It’s an automatic solution. It’s “safe”. It solves everything.”

  18. e.g., Washington D. C.

  19. Never in, he just facinates me. In fact I learn things because he lived.

  20. Mary Rathernotsay

    Good point, Navigator.
    There are cults out there, including but not limited to Scientology, that incrementally begin monopolizing more and more of what ought to be personal and family time until they have taken your whole life. Soon your husband or wife no longer knows you and you are a stranger to your own kids. There is no sane justification for this, in my opinion.
    What the CoS alone has done to children and family is a sin.

  21. Oracle, it could be considered that you are doing a great disservice to those who need to gain the strength to be critical. People have been damaged by this man’s philosophy. You are blaming those who were victims. Sympathy below hate on the tone scale. Those whinny wimps who pulled in losing children, losing money. People need to vent when they have been victimized. You are ser facing the ser facers.

    Below is an imaginary writing that hubbard wrote. Please read this with RPF and RPFs RPF in mind. It takes great emotional strength to unravel the mental state of Ron. This “imaginary” writing is an eerie blueprint for what was practiced in Ron’s Sea Org.
    Speaking these things is healing for those vivtimized by them. It is not whinning. Blaming the victim does not help. But then again sympathy is below hate on the tone scale.

    From the Brain Washing manuel from Beria/Ron
    “It is not enough for the State to have goals. These goals, once put forward, depend for their completion upon loyalty and obedience of the workers. These engaged for the most part in hard labors, have little time for idle speculation, which is good.”
    …………. Hypnosis is induced by acute fear. They discovered it could also be induced by shock of an emotional nature, and also by extreme privation as well as BLOWS….. (my caps)”

    Belief is engendered by a certain amount of fear and terror from an authoritative level, and this will be followed by obedience.

    The body is less able to resist a stimulus if it has insufficient food and is weary…….. Refusal to let them sleep over many days, denying them adequate food, then brings about an optimum state for the receipt of a stimulus.

    ( my caps)
    By lowering the endurance of a person……. and by degradation and defamation, it is possible to induce, thus, a state of shock which will receive adequetly any command.
    Any orgaization which has the spirit and courage to display inhumanity, savageness, brutality, and a compromising lack of humanity, ( sound like Bolivar?) will obey. Such a use of force is, itself, the essential ingredience for greatness…..”

  22. Standing up to and confronting evil, suppression of liberty, suppression of free speech, suppression of freedom of religion is what the whinning heros of Anonymous did.

    By enmasse, they gave all of us the strength to come out of the shadows and stand strong for liberty. Something L.Ron Hubbard not only suppressed, but developed an intelligence agency to hunt down, destroy and punish!

    To associate whinning to those critical of Hubbard only tells me that, honey, and I do mean honey because I do respect you Oracle, you have not truly come to grips with some things. I do not know what they are. But you are still an apologist for a man that would have your head on a pike for being on this blog.

    Love and Hugs,

  23. Espiritu
    “The desire and effort to control others” has an exact source. I wrote a paper outlining this one important phenomenon. Would be glad to send it.

  24. The Co$ was anti any authority that was not LRH. Meet the old boss, same as the new boss. Authority is needed in any society. Without it there would be chaos. I think the hippie communes of the 60s learned that the hard way. How one handles the authority is what matters. Any man who locks a 4 year old in the bowels of a ship should rot in you know where.

  25. Oracle, I agree with everything you said in the above posts. And I will add that people who have made blame their purpose haven’t realized that PAST A CERTAIN POINT, they themselves are generating additional hate – not unlike those they blame. It comes down to contributing to “poisoning the well,” not in just the narrow sphere of Scientology but the whole universe. That concept has been expressed in different ways by different sages, such as in terms of the EVILS OF DUALITY, as well as FORGIVENESS being the only path upward for all concerned.

  26. Mary Rathernotsay

    Go ahead, Oracle…
    Say something healing.
    When you do it is wonderful.

  27. all points sound like DM to me!!! I just ordered a book by Simon Sinek, titled “Why Leaders eat Last”. A book about the hidden dynamics that inspire leadership and trust. Someone who is just an authority vs a true leader. Should be an interesting read. I watched a couple of the utube videos and saw him on the am show the other morning….interesting!!

  28. There’s been a lot of mention of the Bolivar PL lately. It made me look back at how I interpreted it for myself when I was on the Kool-Aid diet. What I thought when I read that so many times was that it was the way people would act in a war, or a military take-over situation, because of all the mention of spy activity, the enemy camp in a blaze, murders, etc.

    I didn’t equate it with what should be done in present day or even think that that was being taken so literally. (Duh…tone levels….) I thought those concepts or ways of thinking were pretty much manifested in the ethics and justice gradients and didn’t think about it much.

    One day while everyone in my office was being berated at length for causing Misc extra time while he “waited” for our work to be done and sent to him, we were challenged with how loyal we were. We were asked very loudly if we’d take a bullet for him. (Since with our delays we were in effect shooting him anyway.)

    I left shortly after that. It was one of the looney-bin things I finally started to notice that told me this isn’t my cup of tea. BTW, even though I was mentally and emotionally stuck in there I certainly would never have thrown myself in front of a bullet headed for that man. I’m glad I wasn’t asked directly, because my fake enthusiastic “Oh yes, sir! Absolutely!” might have been detected.

  29. Well you keep on standing up like the brave soul that you are and confronting that evil man. Good for you Brian.

    I just prefer to focus on live targets that are actually DOING something in present time. I tend to be ambivalent about ashes.

    I do not see myself as being a disservice to others or being clueless because we do not view from the same angle. I have seen a lot of good come from Scientology and a lot of good people with good will using it to make the world a better place. I choose to include that in my math.

  30. “-the tendency to hierarchy

    -the drive for power (and wealth)”

    These two characteristics also lead sociopaths to the top of governments and corporations. They use the other characteristics in their drive to the top. I’m not saying EVERY government leader or corporate head is a sociopath, but it is way too common.

    Another great reference in our quest to help ourselves and one another. Thank you, Marty.

  31. But this idea that Hubbard was evil and that explains it all, that is safe. It solves everything doesn’t it? Except you give that to people as an item and they continue on without resolution and the noise volume gets even louder. So I don’t buy into this healing “gift”.

    There are plenty of people that think Obama is evil, Bill Gates is evil, and Facebook is evil too. All of them part of a government conspiracy to obtain your personal information. As if that is going to send shock waves through the world. Most people’s personal information they couldn’t find a buyer for if they wanted to sell it to someone. Their personal information has very little value to anyone else, unless they are potential buyers.

    Hubbard, and these others, have assisted things which assist survival.

    To fail to include that on the ledger, is the kind of injustice rampant in the Scientology arena. And most people complaining about it, never met Hubbard.

  32. This is exactly what David Miscavige uses to discredit someone. “Marty was the S.P.” “Mike was the S.P.” “Karen was the S.P.”.

    These people spent DECADES assisting things which assist survival. They were auditors, healers. They were on the front lines carrying the torch.

    In fact, since they have left, the Church has fallen into a sink hole. You drive by any location of the Church in L.A. and security is SWARMING all over the front of the property. For what? In case Karen drives by? Seriously?

    This is what wrong items, wrong indications, wrong whos, wrong whys, can do to a group.

    Pushing wrong items and wrong indications on people is what is doing them a disservice.

  33. Short hand on Cult personalities:

    “Full of themselves”

    Maybe I should start my own cult 😉

  34. 9/11 Psychs did it ! I didn’t know Marty

  35. Yes, the beginnings of scientology in the 1950s were anti-authoritarian. At the Freedom Congress in July 1957 LRH expressed ideas not so different from the recent article by Ryan Hogarth: scientology data should be disseminated so widely that no-one can seize it it as their own ‘intellectual property.’

    The obsession with authority, secrecy and ownership of the tech went solid in the following decade. These days dissemination no longer means sharing the data, it means signing people up.

  36. You seem to be trying to taint others with implications of anti Semitism or racism. Not a good thing.

    Purpose is senior to policy, and there are layers of policy.

    The purpose can be found in Hubbard’s early correspondence and in his Affirmations.

    It had nothing to do with making the world a better place or with empowering or freeing others.

    People are realizing that, while salvaging whatever good there was in the subject.

    And that’s a good thing.

  37. Yes. 🙂 Exactly. People in the world reporting bad news about Churches of Scientology are according to “authorities in the church” – bigots, liars, criminals, perverts, terrorists, predjuce, apostate, no one is telling the truth EXCEPT the Church of Scientology! 🙂 I have to agree with Oracle too, I am glad I got left out of it. 🙂

  38. I am glad I got left out of it. 🙂

  39. Elizabeth Hamre


  40. Elizabeth Hamre


  41. A wise phrase I once heard, I don’t know the author.

    “You wouldn’t worry so much about what people think of you, if you knew how seldom they do.”

    Just stuck in my mind for some reason.

  42. Oracle
    I don’t know if you are 35 or 85, 110 or 310 lbs, supple or saggy, but you are obviously a beautiful woman. Would love to chat with you sometime. We align on 92.7% of our thoughts. The remaining would be a great discussion.

  43. I agree with the overall assessment in context. There is no doubt that Miscavige is a cult leader. I also know that sociopathic charismatics lead other groups as “cults” as well. I once worked for a company where the owner was revered in almost Godlike tones. He was both abusive and very charming. And I was disgusted by it, and left pretty quickly.

    If you are not a sociopath it is hard to believe anyone could be – which is their main weapon. At this point, while it is still hard for me, the bubble is burst, and if I see someone doing things that sociopaths do, I consider that they are indeed sociopaths and leave them alone – no matter how charming they may be. I am usually disappointed when I find someone is a sociopath, because they (some of them at least) can be very charming and likable.

    By the way, I too will recommend the book “The Sociopath Next Door” to those who have not read it. It is a remarkable book. Actually, one of the flaws of Scientology is that we think we can cure a sociopath invariably. Maybe we can sometimes, but it is a hell of a lot safer to assume they are incurable, and be super happy when a miracle occurs. The cold hard truth is that they virtually all are incurable, and should be treated that way (not with pitchforks and torches, of course, but by getting them the hell out of your life).

  44. Wow! That sounds very interesting! Thanks for the tip!

  45. My response to you Oracle is in your judgement of others being critical of Hubbard as whinney.
    I believe that is very unfair to those who are digging themselves out of cult mentality.
    I am standing up for them. I consider it courageous to be critical of Ron after being brainwashed that it was evil.
    Brainwashed by Ron’s written word, not DMs insane personality.

    I applaud anyone who chooses to be critical of Ron.

    It is Integrity, not whinney. It is clear thinking, not ser facie.

    But we agree to disagree.


  46. “It had nothing to do with making the world a better place or with empowering or freeing others.”

    People who steal, suspect others are all over the place stealing. People who lie, suspect others are all over the place lying. People with hidden agendas, suspects others are all over the place with hidden agendas.

    That is what I have noticed, not what I “believe” in.

    I do not dispute that many people got involved with Scientology as a “belief system”. They never read a book cover to cover, they never audited anyone, and they never made it through the grades or any other significant experience before jumping in and running with herd based on nothing but “belief”. And they found out “believing” ain’t the way.

    But that does not account for everyone.

    There is no fair way to define every person that explored Scientology and there is no fair way to label Hubbard either.

    He did some quirky things and had some different ways, as anyone living in last century would have.

    But he helped a lot of people and I do not think that was because he had no purpose to do so.

    As far as what you think I “seem to be doing”… that too is just part of some belief system.

  47. Thank you. In reading the rest of the article I found very valuable the datum that, unless one really answers WHO is really responsible of the abuses, one won’t be able to let himself come out of the nightmare he lived in under a cult leader and. most important, won´t allow himself to grow, rather will keep blaming himself. The whole article is rich in data applicable to Black Heart and the cult that has been created inside Scn.Inc.

  48. I agree some people were brainwashed. They will get brainwashed again too, buy the next person coming along selling them a point with a view that they think is better than the one they already have.

    I agree there is and was a cult.

    I agree there are victims, and they will be victims again and again, until they want to be something else. You ARE what you decide you are.

    I agree people took Scientology as a “belief” system and they is how they chose to take it on. They didn’t actually read a book cover to cover or audit anyone or experience much of it. They just jumped in and started running with the herd based on “belief” because it just seemed like the right thing to do at the time.

    What I do not agree with Brian, is that you speak for me and everyone on this planet that explored Scientology and that you can distill this into a little tube and file it as true knowledge. You want to be right, you are right. For you. Not for everyone. You don’t speak for me and I don’t need you to speak for me. I don’t need you to stand up for me. And I don’t need you to try to sell me anything that smells like it would be good for you, for me to have. It is YOU that absolutely discounts everything I have to say. Even if it is true for me.

    Since you say, “I am standing up for them”.

    I would like to have the name of just one person that needs you to speak for them or stand up for them.

  49. It is negativity, period. It’s the same as having a lot of bad news in the media – repeated over and over. With every gory detail.

    Maybe a certain amount is needed in order for people to be informed. And you and others are only preaching to the choir anyway, here and on the other blogs – I’ve see all the same guys posting their usual comments – and thus the contribution is not on the plus side of the ledger, IMO. Something to think about, Brian. And please, I don’t want any “hugs.” That’s the logical fallacy known as Appeal to Emotion.

  50. Right now the only people here that are “standing up” for people is Marty and Monique. That, we NEED. Because they are fighting for our CIVIL and HUMAN rights in a way that will make a BIG difference. They are changing our society for the better ON THE LAW BOOKS. They are pioneering roads into the future so people will not be subjected to domestic abuse and domestic terrorism because their religious beliefs. It is THEM standing up for religious freedom that will make a difference for ALL OF US.

    Other than that, I think the people here have been standing up for themselves and speaking their own mind just fine.

  51. Hi Liz.

  52. Man, those psychs must be big drug peddlers in Pakistan too — And hundreds of other examples where it is ridiculous to blame it on the “psychs.”

    The real culprit is fundamentalist religious belief smothering reason and decency.

    Just like Scientology can do.

  53. But Monique didn’t volunteer for the Church of Scientology ride and the Fairgaming and domestic terrorism and abuse that she has had to endure for the last 4-5 years.

    David Miscavige AND his volunteers in this madness stepped over the line. WAAAAAAY over the line!

    If they didn’t do anything wrong, why the hell are they down in Texas with a million dollar legal team? Huh?

  54. Elizabeth Hamre

    Good to hear from you. I read your post on ONE-ness. We have on agreement. But please call me Elizabeth.. Liz don’t do much for me. in hungary tooo many cows were given that name, somehow this body I have don’t hold resemblance to a cow.. 🙂 and Erzsebet my given name , well that name is very old over 1000 yeas old.. it has personality. 🙂

  55. “People that do not have a WANT and NEED do not get mixed up with Scientology. Hubbard didn’t create your WANTS and NEEDS he only promised to meet these.” That isn’t true. Hubbard did everything possible to create wants and needs in people. He lied his ass off to create fake promises of super duper powers to convince people they need Scientology in order to survive, and keep them under his control. “Scientology attracted a whole lot of needy and wanty people.” That’s also not true. I think most people who are in, are in to help others and they sacrifice a great chunk of their life to forward Hubbard lies, unaware of the con.

  56. Elizabeth Hamre

    Hi Marildi… I totally agree with you and Oracle and my reality is what one puts in gest back.. yes, our realities are shared by many, I have discovered that some years back.
    [ Marty, thank you for letting my comments through! And please accept my apology, I was totally wrong. ]

  57. Thanks Brian.

    Hubbard wasn’t an healer, he was an entrapper.
    He didn’t want free people, he wanted slaves. Scientologists are duped slaves. Free people, even those who find many good things (processes/principles) in Scientology and use them to help themselves and others, don’t remain limited by the KSW framework and grow out of Scientology.

    Yes, I also think that The Oracle is doing a disservice. If someone feels like me that he could have had a better life if he wasn’t lured into Scn & the SO at a young age to work like a slave for Hubbard, he has a right to complain and held Hubbard accountable for his lies.
    I wouldn’t like others to be conned as I have been, and I hope speaking out will prevent at least some of them to. That’s called responsibility and care for others.

  58. And what you imply that I “seem to be doing”, I am not doing at all.

    That was wrong indication and wrong item.

  59. It is one thing to notice victims Brian, it is another to INVENT them. Your indication that I have “not come to grips” with anything, is a wrong item and a wrong indication for me. I have no interest in you defining me as a victim or an oppressor. The fact that you need to unmock a dead man who has already been unmocked, I see as cleaning a clean.

  60. Not that it hasn’t become a popular past time to unmock someone that is already unmocked. And cleaning cleans is very convenient.

  61. But, there are many different ways to invent victims. I have been sold them all. I see the angle you are taking with the sympathy. And I would rather face you with a knife to my throat. It is the same purpose. Inventing victims. Some people are overt and some people are covert about it. You can turn someone into a vic with an ass whipping, or just by getting them to agree and keeping your fingerprints off the evidence. Your message is disturbing to me. “All you invested is wrong. There is no hope. Everyone was wrong. It was all evil”. You have no credentials to support your theories. You just have an agenda. And if I don’t lay down and spread my legs to this bullshit, I too am an oppressor. Come on over and light the match.

  62. “He helped a lot of people” and then betrayed those same people, who trusted him because they had been helped by him. Standard con man procedure.

  63. Amen to that Yvonne!

  64. Lurker
    What damage did you receive at the hands of Mr. Hubbard?

  65. Elizabeth Hamre

    “Take back your Life” That title alone is wrong… I my reality one cant take back which one already have.. Every experience one ever had is what one can call is that experience is part of chain link which forms ones life. As you know millions of experiences are included in the life cycle but in fact we only have one experience at one given moment: and that is NOW. We cant experience the past or there is no future since the ”past and future’ are just concepts representing other concepts with different meanings.. These concepts are not solid therefore one can not take back ones life…. but one can change ones experiences and even that new kind of experience is only happens in the MOMENT OF NOW… the label what we add to these experiences can be anything we choose to add
    The title of the book indicates that the person believed that somebody has created those experiences and now the person claims it back.. … NOOO.. just because we don’t like what we create-experience that do not means others have created that experience for you. NO one can give no one a feeling, a sensation, a ache -pain. sadness…. whatever any one feels is their own reality.

  66. Elizabeth Hamre

    Oracle “I agree there are victims, and they will be victims again and again, until they want to be something else. You ARE what you decide you are.””
    You right.. “”YOU ARE WHAT YOU DECIDE YOU ARE” There is no more.. just that… Only considerations beliefs traps the person: I am a victim, I need to dig my self out, he is evil, he is good, These are just labels given to experiences..

  67. Elizabeth Hamre

    Norwood P “He helped a lot of people” and then betrayed those same people, who trusted him”” question here: how has he betrayed people?

  68. Elizabeth Hamre


  69. Elizabeth Hamre

    just went into agreement.. we agree for many reason,
    I have read this: “””The Bank has to survive at any cost… and co-agreement insures that it stays intact. More agreement there is on any given subject that insures that consideration, that belief to stay…period.. remain solidly in bedded and affective.
    No wonder those who are different in any way are attacked-labeled and segregated by the group from the group and when that is achieved by the group theirs is the false belief that they have won…but their victory is the solidity: the boxed in condition.
    Because of the fear being a cast-out only few who dares to go against that group agreement and the one’s who do… well… they are the one who are fortunate winners…. “”
    As a solo auditor I have explored and confronted the meaning what is ”agreement” and unearthed every experience I have had on the track I ever entered into because I wanted to belong but each group had its own laws and only when one agrees t0 and fallow those laws than one belongs to that group.
    In my reality all my experiences were my own creation, no one can give what I am aware of in each moment of NOW.

  70. Elizabeth Hamre

    Marty ”-the tendency to hierarchy

    -the drive for power (and wealth)

    -hostility, hatred, prejudice

    – superficial judgments of people and events

    -a one-sided scale of values favoring the one in power

    -interpreting kindness as weakness

    -the tendency to use people and see others as inferior

    -a sadistic-masochistic tendency

    -incapability of being ultimately satisfied

    My reality is that extreme FEAR is the cause of the above, total none confront.

  71. Elizabeth Hamre

    G””””’There is no doubt that Miscavige is a cult leader. “”” Any one IS what you believe that person is.. and what you believe is your reality how you see the universe… that do not mean that the universe is how you perceive it, not likely.
    When one changes beliefs, gains different reality than one sees differently: the universe becomes a totally different place… and that is when the person say “wow, I did not know the universe is such a beautiful place!”
    I bet you get the meaning; the apple is sour, the apple taste sweet: nothing big has happened, no miracles, only different words were used, that is all. 🙂

  72. Hi E. 🙂

  73. I do believe we have different learning paths tough.

  74. For starters, how about… By establishing a brainwashing cult disguised as the Bridge to Total Freedom?

    By writing a seemingly enlightened essay about children, then issuing the Children’s security check, and using children as his servants&slaves?

    By publicly writing about “Love” at the same time that he was privately applying his trick, sue, lie, to, destroy philosophy.

    Shall I go on?

  75. Of course you and Brian think I am “doing everyone a disservice”. And I have further victimized “the helpless clueless billions” of people.

    Because I don’t run it on people that they are stupid, fragile, unaware, unable, weak, deaf, mute and brain dead.

    You guys are doing them a real honor right?

  76. I’ll tell you exactly what con you are running on people. You caste out lines of sympathy with a “healing” vibe. Then once you hook someone in you encourage them to HATE.

    Don’t run it on me that I me here doing a disservice to people. That is about as unholy as it gets.

  77. “scientology data should be disseminated so widely that no-one can seize it it as their own ‘intellectual property.”

    It is my reality that this statement can never be attributed to Ron.

    Ron was ruthless when protecting his suit cases to off shore accounts while the Sea Org lived in squaller.

    Ron said and wrote wonderful things. But the example of his life is so far from the savior PR.

    “If it’s not in writing it’s not true” is a false statement.

    Words are meaningless unless backed by action.

    It is wishful thinking to consider Ron would ever relinquish his money flow got the good of the world.
    Sea Org who worked 100 hrs a week had to buy their own supplies and clothes.

    It is a lie that Ron Hubbard even remotely cared to be benevolent with Scientolgy. Money, power, taking over the planet (geeez, the taking over the planet bit seems so crazy now doesn’t it?) PR were his cherished ideals.

    Giving Scientology away for the better good is a pipe dream.

    “The work was free, keep it so” vs. $1000.00 per hr.

    Words mean nothing if not backed up by action.

  78. Hey Mirildi, nuff said, no more hugs. But here is a smiley face anyway 😉

    This encapsulates my view on the importance of open criticism to Ron. And also argument in his defense as you, Oracle and others are doing.
    This is the exchange of ideas. Ideas that were once High Treason.

    This was a response to Oracle and my dialog over on Mike’s site. The blog about North Korea.

    “Ok Thanks Oracle. I agree with you. DM is doing things LRH would never do no doubt. He is a big boy and capable of his own original idiocy and power hungry crimes against our citizenry. His obvious and overt Caligula like madness is proof of his personal talents: a taste for cruelty. And totally his responsibility.

    Jumping off of tables like a demented fiendish spiderman, to knock people’s heads to the floor, gives him a singular distinction credited only to his own interpretations of Bolivar, Fair Game, TR-L, Black Ops Intel Training, instructions from Ron to beat people, spit in their faces and get approval from the man he worshipped as a youth.

    That being said,in my opinion: it is the ideas, the philosophy, the sanctification of destroying enemies for the “only hope for man”, the stamping out of free speech, civil discourse and reasoned dissent, the approval of violence from Ron, the examples of violence perpetrated by Ron that helped to nurture in DM his own special brand of diabolical violence.

    Yet, because I have read Madman or Messiah, Piece of the Blue Sky and Bare Faced Messiah, searched the web for cross referencing to weed out the Ron haters from the Ron exposers, I have concluded to the best of my reasoning that this sort of punishment by force was initiated, institutionalized and made standard church policy.

    So I am connecting conceptual causation ( Ron’s written words) with demonstrated behavior (demented spiderman).

    I believe they are inextricably linked. Teachers teach and students learn.

    I hope that makes my position clear.” FINISH

    New Idea:

    This situation in Scientology has conceptual causation in it’s founder. To condemn those who criticize Ron is, in my mind, part of the brainwashing. Decades upon decades of being trained to hate anyone critical of Ron or Scientology.

    Condemning the personhood, ad hominem, of any individuals being critical of Ron or Scientology, because they are pointing to facts that harm human beings, is evidence of good training.

    The reaction to me, the emotional response that you feel, could be a good place to look for the seed thoughts that feel uncomfortable about criticism towards Ron.

    Believe me, I know the criticism out there for him. I am trying to be reasonable. There will never be a time, that you call yourselves Scientologists, that people will stop having some form of criticism towards Ron.

    It is possible, that when you stop needing to defend him, you will be a much freer person.

    It is possible.

    No Arc or Hugs, no more smiles from me damn it!!!!!

    Ok……… maybe just one……….. 🙂

    It’s all so serious ain’t it ?

  79. At the end of the day Oracle, it would be interesting to have a real survey of just how many people’s lives were ruined or destroyed (whiney victims as you say) and helped.

    Scientology is generally seen by the public as a negative force in the world. Scientology/Ron did it to itself because of it’s doctrines.

    Golly Geeze Batman, Ron alluded to being the Prince of Darkness on a tape and the Anti-Christ in the original OT 8 materials!! WTF lol

    Maybe it’s just me, but somehow claiming these identities as somehow good on one’s resume is insane, delusional and in the end: immoral

  80. 1)He betrayed people by claiming to know the truth and then being a liar.

    2) He betrayed people because he promised full exterior with perceptions and did not deliver. If you think he did, the test is simple.

    3) He betrayed people by demanding ethics on the 2 dynamic then he hit on women and slept with them on Apollo while married to Mary Sue then declared them and off loaded them after he was done using them.
    google Hana Whitefield interview YouTube

    4) He betrayed all of us Scientologist by saying the orgs owed him money while couriers were hauling millions to Liechtenstein.

    5) He betrayed the Sea Org, his beautiful dedicated helpers, by creating the punishment prison of the RPF.

    6) He betrayed the humanity of Susan Meister’s family by covering up the truth of her death, leaving the family to suffer years in not knowing. All because it was bad PR for him.

    7) He betrayed the high stature of the Buddha by claiming he was the Buddha. I became a Scientologist on that lie. That was a betrayal.

    8) He betrayed people by being down on drugs and then we find out he was a druggie.

    9) He betrayed his wife

    10) He lied to his daughter Alexis

    11) He hounded NIbs and his family with black ops

    12) He wrote ‘What is Greatness” then created an intel organization to destroy people.

    The list of betrayals can go on and on.

    It is all out there if you care to find out.

  81. Thank you Mostly Lurker. I consider that statement from your integrity.

    I wish more people who are lurking would stand up and with confidence and strength and roar like a lion, and say what your view really is!

    You guys don’t need to be afraid anymore. The demonization and actual harming of dissent is coming to an end.

    The tsunami of criticism and evidence that is heading towards Scientology is relentless. Thanks to Anonymous.

    Don’t let anyone effect you with Scientology speak, that somehow there is something wrong with you because you dare to soil the name of Hubbard.

    It takes years and years to get out of seeing everything through the mind of Hubbard.

    To see everything as coming from your point of view, from your experience. And not give a fuck or be afraid of Scientology retaliation.

    Mordor is loosing power

  82. “To condemn those who criticize Ron is, in my mind, part of the brainwashing. Decades upon decades of being trained to hate anyone critical of Ron or Scientology.”

    Sorry, Brian, but that’s another logical fallacy called Straw Man: “misrepresentation of the topic of argument. To ‘attack a straw man’ is to create the illusion of having denied a proposition by replacing it with a different proposition (i.e., ‘stand up a straw man’) and then deny it (‘knock down a straw man’) instead of the original proposition.”

    For whatever reason, you aren’t getting what is actually being said to you. It isn’t a matter of “criticizing Ron” (your Straw Man). There probably isn’t anyone who posts here who hasn’t done so. The problem is that you go too far, in both quantity and quality – well past what is necessary to make the point. In effect, you “encourage people to hate,” to put it in Oracle’s words.

    Regardless of what your actual intentions are, to a certain degree YOU ARE SPREADING HATE. You say that Scientologists have been “trained to hate,” yet what you are doing is also “training to hate” by whipping up hatred.

    Mind you, you aren’t the only one who has to work on this. Even in writing this post on the subject I have had to pull myself back from lashing out at you! And I’m sure I don’t have to tell you that enlightened ones down the ages have preached love and unconditional love as opposed to fear and hatred. Nelson Mandela said it beautifully in this famous quote:

    “As I walked out the door toward the gate that would lead to my freedom, I knew if I didn’t leave my bitterness and hatred behind, I’d still be in prison.” – Nelson Mandela

    We all need to leave our bitterness and hatred behind. That’s the only way for us to be at our best and handle what needs handling. So yes, this is “serious.” Because then we can have a seriously big group hug. 😛

  83. Elizabeth Hamre

    Truly interesting how you perceive.. see nothing but negative.. yet I know every persons universe has equal amount of positive and negative.

  84. It has been my observation that some percentage of Ron’s data, whether gathered and aligned or discovered and developed was correct and very useful, and some percentage was in error and led in the wrong direction or was even harmful. The percentage amount is a much heated debate.

    My evaluation of and use of that data is up to me, my responsibility. Lets arbitrarily say 50/50. Through my work, when I find data which appears to be in error I re-check through additional observations, attempt to determine what led to the error in order to discover new data, disseminate my findings, AND THEN DISCARD THE FALSE DATA.

    The data that I find to be accurate is kept until I find a reason to modify or discard it. (Previous paragraph)

    Disseminating the fact that data is false is useful for a short time. The data that I keep near me and use and discuss daily is that which I have found to be correct. Chewing on and beating to death false and harmful info as a large part of your daily activity has the appearance of ‘helping’ but is in actuality doing more harm. In Scn. terms, confront the entheta and RELEASE it.

    Let’s say that you believe there are improved states that one can achieve, but the definition or even existence of Clear is debated. Well then, go out, search for and use methods of improvement for yourself. Disseminate the methods used and your successes, failures, and additional useful knowledge gained. I have found, for me, that ‘Clear’ is various states of release. That to truly regain one’s abilities, I must view those early instances when I made decisions which put me in a frame of mind to suppress my abilities. That viewing my early existence has it’s own dangers and must be supplemented with other work in PT. My work will change as I go along.

    Find your path and WORK TOWARD IT. I will need your advice in the future. I will publish all my work when I am confident it is broadly helpful.

    Honest effort trumps opinions from the couch every time.

    Thanks, Mark

  85. Hello Erzsebet
    Good to hear you talking again.

    I have discovered another piece of the puzzle concerning harmful intentions. Turns out, it’s a pretty big puzzle. I sent this to Espiritu earlier.
    Part of this you have already seen.

    “Fear has long been the general consensus concerning harmful intentions, but I have always been a bit uneasy about that simple assessment.
    Actually kind of a put down: “You’re mean so you must be weak, and I’m better than you” attitude. There must be something more to it,
    something underlying it. I stumbled across this while doing other work and it hit me like a ton of bricks. I am attaching another
    article which gives the background principles involved. This is data of some importance and should be disseminated widely.
    Thanks for your interest, it shows you are already a step up.

    THE DESIRE AND EFFORT TO CONTROL OTHERS IS THE GREATEST OF ALL EVILS, SURPASSING EVEN THE LOVE OF MONEY. It is not the same as the competent and ethical direction of activities of an area or environment. It is so close to an individuals basic purposes that it is difficult to detect and handle.”…………….

    This originally sprang from the intention to have things that you did not control, in order to have randomity, a game. Much later, regaining control became a problem and for some, an obsession. Many other things became attached to this area.

    For the complete article, drop me a note


    It does not replace fear as a motivator for harmful intentions, such as “surrounded by enemies with no way out” It does not replace reaching the basic on a chain of overts. It does not replace even finding the prior confusion.


    THE DESIRE AND EFFORT TO CONTROL OTHERS, AS IT’S OWN PURPOSE, was gained before there was any confusion, any inconsistency. It was gained as a basic purpose and doesn’t even show up on an assessment. It can be resolved when viewed. It cannot be forced.

  87. “Truly interesting how you perceive.. see nothing but negative..”

    That’s not correct. Where positives exist and they do exist, they are acknowledged. Where negatives exist, they are acknowledged.

    “I know every person’s universe has equal amounts of positive and negative.”


    We’re discussing a subject that exists in the objective universe. You’re going to have to look at the real world sooner or later.

    Scientology, as established by L. Ron Hubbard, has plenty of negatives. Scientologists have a heck of hard time facing that. If anyone wants to salvage the positives, he had better be able to spot the negatives.

  88. Brian, your purpose is to restimulate people with hysterical warnings declarations and witch hunts. You are continuously prosecuting a dead man on top of that. Maybe you didn’t find your stairway to heaven through Scientology but the path you are digging for yourself isn’t exactly in the heavenly direction little brother.

  89. Well now, it seems we have different points of view! And we can talk about them. You see a flaw in me, and I see a flaw in Hubbard. You see me as a hater, stirring up hate, and I am looking at Ron.

    Maybe we are really looking at our own thoughts. Our own dream constructs telling us what is real and not real.

    When my criticising of Ron causes no more reaction, the context of this conversation will be completely different.

    You judge me and I judge Ron.

    I am so insignificant to this diaspora in terms of cause.

    Ron is supreme cause: supremely significant.

    Seeing putting attention on him as hate, needs some reviewing, in my opinion only.

  90. Truly interesting that you have not mentioned one of my points to defend Ron. You only see me, not the facts I present.

  91. Elizabeth, you asked for betrayals, and I stated some. Then you made it about me. Made it being that I only see negative.

    I only answered your question.

  92. With facts

  93. Elizabeth Hamre

    🙂 yes and we collect experiences to learn from. in my reality being here on this planet has been a great education.. no matter how bad things were and some experiences [only been here 2600 years] were heavy painful but from these have come the greatest. realizations. Here I have learned all the meanings of words and how to connect them to energy masses 🙂 and I also learned the lesson the most valuable one which was from LRH: How to confront. That knowledge will be with me in my future adventures and its use will not allow the accumulation of those adventures to become a burden ever again. 🙂 Paradise is where we make it.

  94. Elizabeth Hamre

    Mark: ”THE DESIRE AND EFFORT TO CONTROL OTHERS IS THE GREATEST OF ALL EVILS, SURPASSING EVEN THE LOVE OF MONEY.”” DESIRE TO CONTROL OTHERS IS out of FEAR. ONE must control at all times because if one do not control and make others do whatever than ohhhh bad things can happen and 😦 these things I wont be able to face and I be badly hurts 🙂 Mark I am thrilled that you are having a great adventure, truly happy for you. I am cheering you on! 🙂 Fear exist because of VALUE… if one believes something is valuable than one holds that subject, item very close.. When values are confronted than fear will vanish and so will the desire to control.

  95. Brian, have you ever come across someone who bitches too much? Even when what they’re bitching about has merit, it puts hate into the environment. Can you see that?

    There are none so blind as those who will not see.

  96. Elizabeth Hamre

    In my reality LRH was a true genius and brilliant and yes I don’t agree with all what he created.. but I am sure if he would know my life he would feel the same about my adventures. I am grateful for his existence and for his ability to put together in usable form some of his knowledge like the auditing Technology.. and the most important of all, I have learned WHAT CONFRONT IS AND WHAT IT CAN DO WHEN APPLIED. Because I been using these technologies for 40 years I have achieved all what was written on the Bridge. I have gained realities beyond my wildest acceptation. And no amount of negative considerations no matter what or who the sours would be could change my reality….

  97. Elizabeth Hamre

    I already spotted the negatives… all of them and that is the reason I have great outlook and grand experiences… and that is the reason : ” I know every person’s universe has equal amounts of positive and negative.” 🙂

  98. Azt probálja elérni, hogy bocsánatkérök legyünk sajátmagunkért, az életünkért, a döntéseinkért, és azért, hogy miként (ill. kiként) létezünk és leteztünk.

    What he is trying to do is to make us apologetic about ourselves our lives our choices who we have been and who we are.

  99. Elizabeth Hamre

    Now if you are so smart, here are some questions for you: who made you swallow all that garbage,; If was garbage in reality, who made you believe that is was brainwashing tech, where did you get that idea? But I wont get into your realities.. they are yours, it is your bag and not mine.. I like the Universe, I perceive great beauty around me, I see magical creations all-around. and each moment, since we only have that experience is perfect. Be well, do well. 🙂 .

  100. Brian, I am not sorry about myself, my choices, my path, any former self. I am not apologizing to you or anyone else for for any of it.

  101. Well said Miraldi, on the hate. Most people here would just like to “Move on up a little higher”. As has more or less been the purpose for meeting up on this this blog and exchanging ideas. It is not another “hate group”.

  102. Brian: Maybe it’s just me, but somehow claiming these identities as somehow good on one’s resume is insane, delusional and in the end: immoral.

    What you are trying to do is to make us apologetic about ourselves our lives our choices who we have been and who we are.

    Brian, I am not sorry about myself, my choices, my path, any former self. I am not apologizing to you or anyone else for for any of it.

  103. Elizabeth Hamre

    N P I found that when I wanted to change the World around me I could not since I felt powerless-helpless against such immense forces but when I have changed my realities how I view the Planet and its occupants the Universe have changed.. Miracles 🙂 do happen!:)

  104. Brian: “It is possible, that when you stop needing to defend him, you will be a much freer person”.

    Again, a wrong item and a wrong indication. I do not need to defend a dead man.

    I do need to defend myself when someone publishes false reports about who I am and what I am doing and why I am here at all.

    I am as free as I want to be. I am not stuck in any prison because of what I KNOW and who I am.

    Your continuous stream of inval and eval is an abuse in itself.

  105. Brain: “You guys don’t need to be afraid anymore. The demonization and actual harming of dissent is coming to an end”.

    You imply that somehow the people exchanging ideas here are cowed afraid and oppressed. Nobody here is afraid to be here and communicate.

    The way you discount people continuously in this arena is oppressive.

  106. And lastly Brian, the fact that you are working so furiously to make this blog look like a hate group, at this time,
    and tossing Hubbard up as the main target to detract attention off of David Miscavige, shows what a lose cannon and a liability you can be against the back drop of the big picture. You don’t even realize who you are working for. I hope.

  107. Elizabeth Hamre

    Mark… here is my reality about value, importance, and fear.
    Important, having importance, making something important by “thinking and believing” those possessions which we own have value.. do they ever have value..!! The value is agreed upon reality and there is no more to what is value. example: 1 carat perfect diamond in the jewelry store is about $ 40000.00 that value exist the value because the diamonds value is controlled by the cartel in fact that diamonds true value is $200.00 Well… important: having importance makes that thought, that item solid and holds it in space forever and a day…

    Example having life, living, being somebody, owing things and where is value than one has GAINED FEAR = fear exist because there is worry it might be that important valuable object will become lost or stolen and that important thing.. Being somehow will disappear.. and therefor that valuable being or item—whatever will be no more, we wont have it among our possessions.

    Fear only exist because the thought is attached to a being or item that is valuable=important.. one can’t do without because of that life is not worth living!
    When one confronts why one holds the universe so valuable and important and what made it so much needed and wanted than these values-importance’s will melt away with the false values at the same times and the fear to will be evaporate for ever.
    There is nothing important or valuable in this universe unless one believes that those concepts are real.

  108. I am not responsible for peoples restimulations Oracle. I am not that powerful. It could be that the truth is flying in the face of belief, and what you perceive as restimulation is the sound of crumbling belief systems under the weight of reasoned scrutiny.

  109. Who is that?
    BTW, can I still put hugs on the end of my posts to you?
    Mirildi senses a less then benevolent motive with my vitual hugs.

  110. Hi Erzsebet
    There must be a bit of Irish in you. I can feel the strength in your comments

    You once said that you have seen/experienced your whole past. I was wondering if you recall, just at the end of dimension conflicts, when it was finally decided and agreed by most that the primary method of constructing space for common interaction would be in 3 dimensions. And then there was an explosion of private and public playgrounds to enjoy and experience. This was such a wonderful time when everything was new and there were so many creative ideas being brought about. It was so much fun. Sharing space and objects and ideas with friends and acquaintances alike, jumping from playground to playground. Making beautiful and interesting spaces with partners or all by yourself.

    Well, there was this guy, most everyone knew of him, who was the master of color. He made the most vibrant, brilliant, colorful spaces. Color that would dance around and swirl and coalesce into patterns and objects. He loved to mesmerize others and grab their attention. He could produce the whole range of emotions (as they existed at the time) and ‘people’ would really go the effect of it. He loved entertaining others, as did we all. But he was really good at it.

    Many others would make action spaces, puzzles, music theaters, usually interactive. But he loved to mesmerize.

    This was the long and rich era of games universes. As this era went on, fewer and fewer ‘people’ spent a lot of time and effort making new spaces and spent more of their time playing in existing spaces, which became larger and more complex.

    Well it turned out that this particular guy got in with the club or clique of guys who sort of weaseled their way into being the guys who made most of the playgrounds for the rest of us to play. It took awhile, but they figured out how to assist us in becoming attached to energy, emotions, experiences and objects, so that they could put individuals where they wanted, punish them if ‘needed’.

    He, and these guys, became the most vile, evil, sadistic creatures this universe has ever known, and that is saying something. They are near total sociopaths, having no connection with those they control and enslave, for our own good of course.

    His specialty became fixing your total attention on something beautiful, closing it in around you, allowing you to make it yours, and closing off your access to other spaces and comm lines, leaving you trapped and alone. He would then rescue you, convincing you that only he had the ability to handle such things and you needed his help and guidance to experience such beauty.

    The seeds of these actions were spawned long before this account, but this is when it really grew. The stories of these guys are the story of sociopathic purposes and behavior. These guys are still in charge of large common universes.

    This is but one origin and growth of destructive and harmful purposes. There are many, many more. Perhaps you have traced some back.
    Love, Mark

  111. Norwood: “That’s not correct.” “You’re going to have to look at the real world sooner or later.”

  112. Norwood, I am glad you are volunteering as a “thought police”. Because if you ran ad planet wide, for this service, I don’t think you would get one phone call. Guess why?

  113. Erzsebet
    The fear of loss of a “valuable item or being” as the source of harmful/evil intentions.

    God love you, I so wish it were that simple. Your statements are absolutely true. But there is much more to be said. I have so much to learn.
    Love, Mark

  114. Brian: I am not responsible for peoples restimulations Oracle. I am not that powerful.

    How feminine.

    Brian: It could be that the truth is flying in the face of belief, and what you perceive as restimulation is the sound of crumbling belief systems under the weight of reasoned scrutiny.

    “Truth flying in the face” always brings a refreshing air of Freedom Brian.

    If you perceive yourself as a breath of fresh air, good for you.

    I am not concerned about you “crumbling” anything in my universe, or unmocking any part of my universe. Or me.

  115. I was only curious about your three person pussy posse.

  116. T.O., thanks for calling it like it is. And standing up to the abuse. My instincts tell me you are absolutely right, that this is achieving nothing more than restimulation. Not the way to move on up a little higher – just the opposite.

  117. If you read the strange little 1955 booklet – textbook on psycho-politics, a.k.a. the brainwashing manual – originally secretly written by Hubbard to smear his perceived enemies as communists, it presents what became, in the 1960s and the 1970s, Hubbard’s blueprint for his own brainwashing cult. It was Hubbard who used the word “brainwashing” to describe what he, then, himself, did, to his own most loyal followers. Read the 2001 Brainwashing Manual Parallels in Scientology if this interests you.

    All of Scientology is not brainwashing. The brainwashing (or “psycho-politics”) is woven into the fabric of Scientology. If you can separate the threads of cloth, you can separate the negatives from the positives.

    “Who made me swallow that garbage” ? Well, not all of it was garbage. Initially, there were some innovatively expressed truths presented. However, it was a deceptive presentation. It was misleading. Hubbard’s Scientology is not an honest subject.

    You be well too.

  118. Elizabeth Hamre

    Mark… by the time I gotten to that viewpoint I have looked thousands of other related considerations, so that reality was not the outcome of one session. 🙂 hehehe and live god out of it , since god was just a different item which held no value for me. “)

  119. Elizabeth Hamre

    N.P. We are aware and incredible intelligent entities. In fact we have created, brilliance, we have decided what is being intelligent or stupid.. We have the abilities to choose, agree or not.. So it is up to us to take responsibility for the experiences we choose to have.. I admit it is a bit more complicated but still, one only can experience ones creation…. no one can tell you to agree and believe in something if you don’t want to. In my reality we all know the truth, but we dont always fallow that path because if we all would than we would be always in the same team and to play a game, any game we need two teams.. 🙂 the universe is a wonderful place and it is our playground created by us for that purpose.

  120. I am talking about Ron, not you. You, Oracle are not the subject or object.
    You take my criticism of Ron as a criticism of you: curious.

  121. Big hugs Oracle. In reality this communication is wonderful. Civil discourse. Heated disagreement. I still respect you all for taking me on.
    Hugs to all, including Mirildi.
    Much love to you all, from one opinionated fool to another:-))
    May all beings be happy.

  122. Elizabeth Hamre

    Mark…. we created our universes to dazzle and it do dazzle us! At first when being audited have discovered that I was a victim of every bodies, the whole universe was after my ass to destroy and hurt me!!!!!Oh all the things those evil persons done to me.. HEHEHE… than I coughed up enough overts_what I done to others: I realised I was not a sweet smelling little flower as I believes I was but I to have given back equal amount killed maimed enough people which could populate this Planet. And I too had plenty of power to hurt others and plenty evil intentions to double destroy, to take revenge on others who have [ I believed] harmed me any way. I have become fully aware just how much of my intention was centered on destroying-getting even with others… It is not easy to see self as a evil person. That too has passed as I have continued on the Path of self discovery. My realities shifted how I have seen the universe around me and self included 180% when I have realised that no matter what I experienced I was the cause of that experience.. blaming of others that concept melted into oblivion… The universe become a simple place…I have what I create… I created in the past 24 years beautiful gardens, you can see one in the face book, I live in the garden I have planted those plants, bulbs, seeds, shrubs, when they did not look much, but now they grown into magnificent beauty.. they dazzle and It was I who decided that they dazzle, that they are beautiful, that they are magical.. and the garden is Heaven it self… I do hope you understand what I mean… evil only exist when we decided that some one is that moment evil is born.

  123. Elizabeth Hamre

    Mark…. My main point is… we are never victims, we are playing a make believe… and when one realises that.. than that make belief goes Puffffff!

  124. On David Miscavige, I am convinced that he is a textbook sociopath. Recent studies show that possibly 4% of the population are. Because sociopaths are ruthless and will squash their rivals and burn institutions to the ground in order to reach their goals, they are incredibly destructive. He simply needs to be imprisoned to protect society from him, and I think that his actions have show that to be a reasonable decision. I also, believes that he understand this, and that is he will do everything to avoid prosecution.

    I believe as a society that it’s important that people be aware of the characteristics of a sociopath, so that they can protect themselves from them. My fiancé recently lost a good friend who was under the influence of a sociopath. May she RIP.

    Below, are some of the disturbing characteristics of the sociopathic mind:

    1) Sociopaths Lack a Conscience
    Sociopaths know the intellectual difference between right and wrong. They understand society’s expectations. They understand what moral behavior is supposed to look like. They even understand that actions have consequences. The problem is, they do not care. They do not feel remorse or guilt. They have no inner compass to guide them, and so they do exactly what they want at any given moment. This lack of conscience means that it does not matter to them if they trample on the rights, feelings, or safety of others. It means that they have no limits and are therefore capable of anything; it is a recipe for endless cruelty and depravity.

    2) Sociopaths Feel a Limited Range of Human Emotions
    Sociopaths are emotionally crippled. They feel anger, rage, and envy in full force, which fuels aggressive behavior in many of them. But the rest of their emotions are shallow and fleeting. Because of this disability, sociopaths are unable to truly connect with other people. They are unable to have real empathy for others, because they cannot relate to emotional pain. And, most ominously, they are unable to love. This emotional defect also means that they must spend their entire lives watching others and learning to imitate behaviors that they are unable to engage in naturally; in this way, they become demented chameleons. They are pathetic and empty, and this makes them chronically bored. The boredom is almost painful for them, and they will do anything to alleviate it. This contributes to their tendency to act impulsively and recklessly. And ultimately, they will do anything and everything to get rid of their boredom because, having no conscience and no empathy, they do not care who gets hurt in the process.

    3) Sociopaths View Everything in Life—Including Relationships—As Games to be Won
    Sociopaths have an insatiable need to win. This desire to win is so strong that they sometimes will take themselves down in the process of becoming the “winner.” Because they are unable to build real relationships, they view their interactions with others as games. Other people are simply pawns to be played. And because they have no conscience, they make up their own unethical rules for those “games.” They use tactics like mirroring, deception, projection, gaslighting, pity plays, and other forms of emotional and physical abuse to idealize, manipulate, confuse, and intimidate others, all in the name of “winning.”

    4) Sociopaths Live to Exploit Others
    The ultimate purpose of every sociopath’s life is to do whatever it takes to get what he or she wants at that moment. Since they do not understand love, they view other people as objects to be obtained, used, and then discarded. And so in all their interactions with others, they follow a particular pattern—idealize, devalue, and discard—over and over and over again. They are constantly scoping out potential targets and assessing them as sources of supply; they might want money, a place to live, sex, a cloak of normalcy, or a short-term thrill. They often throw people away suddenly and brutally, ignore them for days, months, or even years, and then contact them again as if no time has passed and all is well. Their desires change unexpectedly and abruptly, and nothing stops them from pursuing those desires in any way they can.

    5) Sociopaths Believe they are Superior Beings
    Sociopaths see nothing wrong with using people and then throwing them away. They feel completely justified in lying, cheating, stealing, and manipulating others. In fact, not only do they see nothing wrong with their behavior, they actually believe that they are incredibly superior to other people! Every time they are able to con their targets, they view that as evidence of the targets’ weakness. And, they do not suffer from low self-esteem or insecurities (although they often pretend to “feel” that way in order to manipulate others). On the contrary, they are egotistical and arrogant. And this makes it impossible for them to benefit from therapy, and it makes it impossible for them to change. Why should they change, when they believe they are already better than everyone else? This, I believe, is the main reason why there is no cure for sociopathy.

    (source -

  125. And Oracle, truth flying in the face of belief in not always a fresh air feeling. Sometimes truth is quite uncomfortable when beliefs are challenged.
    What is never uncomfortable is when directly perceived truth is challenged. Directly perceived truth welcomes reasoned and unreasonable scrutiny. Why? Because directly perceived truth is directly perceived.
    If I know my shoes are brown, my knowledge is unaffected by someone liking the color of my brown shoes or someone color blind arguing they are black. My confidence in knowing is unaffected one way or another because I directly see the truth.

    To say that I am enturbulating or invalidating other’s “truth” is like saying that the color blind man is invalidating my perception of my shoes. Now O hate this man for making me doubt mt perception: ridiculous!

    But….. If your “truth” is based on belief and need others to agree with you, and your “truth” can be invalidated by opinionated fools like me, then it is not directly perceived truth you experience.

    You can only be upset if faith is challenged. Because faith is not direct perception of truth.

    I am upsetting your Scientology belief system. Otherwise you would be challenging on the points I am making, and not judging me as a person for bringing up these subjects.

    Truth welcomes the opportunity to be scrutinized. Faith and belief systems demonize reason scrutiny.

    Just like you are doing to my personhood.

    I am a hate monger, I only want to restimu late people, I am negative, I am bla bla bla, is the same as a fundamentalist Christian condemning a theological critic as being influenced by the devil.

    Neither you, Oracle or Mirildi have engaged in a dialog of any of the points I have brought up about Ron.

    You have only found fault with me.

    And that shows me, you are protecting faith and not truth.

    Truth could give a shit if it is agreed with, validated or invalidated. Because it is confident in it’s inability to be invalidated. But truth even goes a step further: truth welcomes challenge, because truth, if truth is the goal, loves being proves wrong so that truth evolves to higher truth.

    You guys are emotionally upset with me. You will say you are not. But you are.

    I have challenged your faith. That is why you judge me and not take up my criticisms of Ron.

    Truth can never be invalidated, only upgraded.

    Invalidation of truth and going PTS to invalidation of truth, is another fallacy of Hubbards.

  126. And it is a fallacy of Hubbards because some of his “truths” were not true. And Scientologists have equated truth with Ron’s “scientific findings.”

    Only belief systems are uncomfortable around reason. Truth loves the challenge.

    You have hated my challenge. You have used Scientology mind filters to conclude on my personhood.

    Hugs to you all, real sincere hugs:-))

  127. Brian, some opinions do harm, including to the person who has it. An example is the opinion that encourages others not to forgive. EVEN…

    “When deep injury is done to us, we never RECOVER until we forgive.

    “Forgiveness does not change the past. But it does enlarge the future.”

  128. Traditional elements of authoritarian personalities include the following:

    1) the tendency to hierarchy….. The Sea Org

    2) the drive for power (and wealth)
    He told me he was obsessed by “an insatiable lust for power and money”. He said it very emphatically. He thought it wasn’t possible to get enough. He didn’t say it as if it was a fault, just his frustration that he couldn’t get enough. David Mayo

    3) hostility, hatred, prejudice…
    All psyches are murderers. RPF, black ops, hatred towards priests, Jesus, journalists, squirrels. All religions except Buddhism and Scientology from implants.

    4) superficial judgments of people and events
    All people who are against Scientology have crimes

    5) a one-sided scale of values favoring the one in power
    The Ethics Manual

    6) interpreting kindness as weakness
    “It is a frightening level of bravery to use men you know can be cruel, viciousand incompetent” LRH Bolivar

    7) the tendency to use people and see others as inferior
    Wogs, Raw Meat

    8) a sadistic-masochistic tendency
    “He could be capable of incredible cruelty. On the ship there was an old man on the Royal Scotman who he made push a peanut round the decks with his nose. He had to get down on his hands and knees, he had to go round the deck, quite a long distance in a race with one or two others also in trouble. The first one back got let off and the last one got a double penalty. It was really tough on this old guy, Charlie Reisdorf. The surface of the deck was very rough wood, prone to splinter, so after pushing peanuts with their noses, they all had raw, bleeding noses, leaving a trail of blood behind them. I not only saw it but the entire crew of the ship was mustered – a mandatory attendance – we were required to watch this punishment, to make an example of it for the rest of us. Reisdorf was in his late 50s probably. His two daughters were messengers, they were 11 or 12 at time and his wife was there also. It was hard to say which was worse to watch: this old guy with a bleeding nose or his wife and kids sobbing and crying at being forced to watch this. Hubbard was standing there calling the shots, yelling, “Faster, Faster!”. It was indignity, degradation and breaking a person’s will, and making people watch. It was disgusting”

    9) incapability of being ultimately satisfied
    See number 2

    10) paranoia
    “At all times he thought the American Psychological Association and the AMA and CIA had hit men after him… he thought everyone was after him. This was long before the IRS was after him. No one was after him at that time, but he certainly had delusions.”

    “He was psychotic, a manic depressive with paranoid tendencies.”

    “He was highly paranoid and would be rushing along the street with me and I would say, “Why are you walking so fast?” He’d look over his shoulder and say, “Don’t you know what it’s like to be a target?”
    Barbera Kay, Ron’s PR secretary.

  129. Brian: “Neither you, Oracle or Marildi have engaged in a dialog of any of the points I have brought up about Ron.”

    Not true. But when anyone has tried to do so, you either can’t – or won’t – duplicate where you have missing or incorrect data. For example, you continue with your misinterpretation – and your PROPAGANDA – about Ron’s definition of sympathy.

    In other words, it has become clear that there’s no use trying to get into a dialogue with you. You obviously have your agenda.

    Too bad you can’t progress beyond glib and sanctimonious rhetoric. I, for one, am done wasting time on you.

  130. I was never talking about you. I am only talking about Ron. I have already told you I respect that you have made Scientology your own.


  131. Elizabeth,

    You are “confusing the planes.”

    I’m referring to and describing a situation in the objective universe, you’re escaping to another realm to avoid what you’d rather not see.

  132. Brian: “You have hated my challenge. You have used Scientology mind filters to conclude on my personhood.”

    The above quote, along with the rest of your post, I see as not only an exaggerated opinion of yourself but as a continuation of your efforts to restimulate – no matter how you have that justified. And it is typical of you to throw in some patronizing remarks, this time in the form of “sincere hugs.”

    I hope no one – including you – misses the intention behind such insidious rhetoric. You really should take a look at it.

  133. I am really speaking to those lurkers who are afraid. Those afraid of posting. Those afraid of loosing their family and lives because of Hubbard policy on steroids. You keep making it about you Oracle. It is not about you. You take things so personally. It is not necessary.

    Dead man? I thought we were thetans?

    Ron is alive and well in Fair Game, Bolivar, Black ops. Ron is alive and well in his written word. He is alive and well in present time policy being taught to present time people being demonstrated by present time actions.

    These are not ashes that seek destruction of criticism. This is church policy written by L.Ron Hubbard. That are attacking real people in the present time. Ashes? I think not.

  134. Exactly Norwood. It became the Sea Org and RPF. He knew exactly what he was doing.

  135. I am all for forgiveness. And I am also for looking, seeing and knowing without condemnation. Seeing, without preconceptions.

    Seeing the dark side, is not not forgiving. Confronting the dark side of Ron is not not forgiving him. I have forgiven him a long time ago.

    This dialog is for the living, and the ideas and concepts from a man who was not as benevolent as your fancy dictates.

    I send him love across the air waves. He is my brother, I have learned from him, he was my teacher.

    It’s the aversion to seeing darkness so that it can be cognized on to see light, that I am pressing onwards. Define it as you wish.

    But you see me as dark. And I see you holding on to a mental image of Ron that I believe is fanciful and devotional, but not accurate as far as truth is concerned.

    But that is my view and you have yours. And that is what makes life so zippy!


  136. You are the one dedicated to fault finding Brian.

    Glad to know you seek to live with the “truth”. We always get what we demand don’t we? We also reap what we sow.

    I hope you are living in some conditions that approximate Nirvana.

  137. Prince:
    Excellent and detailed post.
    I have some additional data for you. This is an excerpt from my essay “The desire and effort to control others.”
    . ……… “But a few were really good at controlling others and it became a primary purpose. They learned that to control is to direct and limit the
    actions of others and to prevent clever and creative actions. Whether
    enemies or allies. This separated you further from theta as a whole but
    was made up for by considering others as underlings, like pets. A LOWER FORM OF AFFINITY WAS ESTABLISHED.”……..

    For the entire article which details the source of this phenomenon, drop me a note

  138. Mark, is the “DESIRE AND EFFORT TO CONTROL OTHERS” the basis of ser facs, or is there a difference?

  139. Thank you. I have no desire to inherit Ron’s friends neither his enemies.
    There seems to be quite a bidding war going on for both.

    I like the people that exchange ideas on this blog a lot. As far as I am concerned, it is the only group exchange where a standard for truth is kept at an all time high.

    There are half truths and whole truths. It is true Hubbard did some naughty things, and there are some disappointed customers. And you choose to bring that forward.

    But it is not the whole truth by a long shot.

    Marty is the only person I know that has traveled this road from being an interested public, all the way to the top in the industry, walked most of both sides of the bridge, had audited people and has been a P.C..

    He has rounded out his education continuously by reading and keeping himself as a student of the world, and on top of that doing, the right thing as a human being, by others.

    He has kept an open forum going here with out excluding others because of their faith, opinion, viewpoint or ideas. Unless someone just becomes mad with verbal venom. Actually he even mostly just trusts his fellow man here to deal with too.

    There is a great equilibrium here where everyone can really feel welcome and safe, have intelligent exchanges, and share their views.

    A lot of truth has surfaced on this blog. It has been the flood gates to bringing people out of the dark and permitting them to deal with the truth in an intelligent and thoughtful way.

    Many truths have been shared with you.

    That you choose to forward the ones that work for your agenda, and directly devalue what others place a value on, or discount what others seem to value, puts you as a solid fixture with an unshakable mission.

    Most people just are not doing that. There are no fanatic and no haters.

    Not so many people curious about a witch hunt or a kneeling to some “god”.

    You say “Scientology has ruined lives”. That is not the way it is. People, people suppress other people. They do it all walks of lives. There are people here that feel their travels have value, their experience has value, their lives have meaning, and they are a part of another dimension called “the super natural” which is a very real and present dimension to them.

    It is not true for them that their lives or ruined or anyone interested in Scientology is part of a life ruining body. It’s just not true.

    It’s the same as saying, “Germany killed Jews”. No, Germany did not kill Jews. And not all Germans killed Jews. Some Germans killed Jews. But if you go on chanting “Germany killed Jews”! in a German bar where people are trying to have a beer and a Bratwurst and relax with their friends and have a pleasure moment in between work shifts, someone will eventually get up and kick your ass. Because it is a wrong indication and wrong item. For the majority of the people in Germany.

  140. Fortunately, the good people of this world with power, did not choose to drop nuclear bombs all over Germany with the purpose of wiping out every man woman and child in that country.

    But there are some haters out here, that would set fire to every Church and every person connected to it, if they could get away with it. And those are the people who making the biggest noise about power abuse. They know what they are capable of. They think everyone else is too.
    They are not.

    Hate and hate groups, who BOND through hate and loving to hate, are a red flag in any society. And the Church has more or less become a hate group. Look at the domestic abuse and domestic terrorism and web sites and OSA plants. It’s all a bond through hate.

    These purposes are very, very sticky. And these people recruiting for them are growing the very same cults they are protesting against.

    You read Mike Rinder’s blog. It is facts. With some humor if you will, a spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down.

    You read it here, it is facts.

    These aren’t hate groups. These are people working to understand through reason and logic, and reorganize their thoughts, lives and plans for the future. These are the curious. Not the enforcers.

    People that bond through hate have the purpose to enforce something. A STOP STOP STOP DESTROY DESTROY DESTROY agenda.

    Curious people are into healing, knowing and expanding. Repairing and reinventing themselves.

    After decades of torture by the Church upon “Independents” to STOP DESTROY and SMASH other people for their religious beliefs, and practices. You see the CONSTRUCTIVE efforts of Marty, Mike and others to FIX situations.

    They aren’t out here “Smashing the squirrels” and “Smashing the Scientologists” “Smashing the psyches” and “Smashing the journalists” and “Smashing the Freezoners” and “Smashing the doubters” and smashing smashing smashing!

    They are LOOKING and REACHING and CARING and BUILDING and FIXING and HEALING and KNOWING. And many, even laughing about it all.

    There is a way to remain reasonable through this social randomity and hold onto one’s dignity and integrity, be human and merciful and compassionate, and turn lemons into lemonade. That is a choice too.

  141. The most bizarre madness I have witnessed in this social evolution with Scientology, is the Scientologists who leave that “Scientology” Universe, they leave and complain bitterly and constantly about how they were abused as Scientologists, and they,, they turn around and make it their biggest past time, to abuse Scientologists.

    Really bizarre that. Like inmates that are degraded and humiliated, who begin to degrade and humiliate other inmates. Like other oppressed peoples and cultures, or caste systems, who begin to treat their brothers and kin, in the bad way as they have been treated.

    It doesn’t matter what family or group or church or culture or race or country you live in.

    Every person has the choice to lift up their fellow man. Or to treat them with respect and dignity. We were PEOPLE part of the human race before we were ever Scientologists. And we still are. If we can’t be civilized as PEOPLE to our fellow man, of course we will not create any civilized group to be a part of.

    Marty has created a civilized group here. And not by enforcement or policing or bonding people through hate. Only by bring people up to curiosity. And then a desire to be part of a remedy. That brings hope. Promise.

  142. T.O., thanks for your depth and your ability to articulate it. Besides all the values you list out in the above series of comments, you’ve contributed the ingredient of aesthetics. (That’s another element that has been inverted.)

    Simply put, you make a real contribution to “the environment.” Mercy me! 🙂

  143. I see your point Elizabeth. Our experience is our own. Yet we are in a connected universe. With life outside of our own experience. Outside our own biases and perspectives: outside our ego.

    Your logic gives no mercy, no sympathy to an abused person. It is like blaming the girl being raped in Saudi Arabia for getting raped

    “She pulled it in” is the Scientology sacred writ of no sympathy. “She is responsible for her condition” a degraded and ignorant understanding of karma( that is if you believe in karma, Ron did not)

    What I have perceived here on this blog with some who still consider them selves Scientologists is a tendency to hold in contempt those who have been the object of someone’s abuse.

    I know you will not agree and consider I am attacking you, just like others have accused me of doing.

    One of the diabolical, immoral and despicable aspects of the cult of Scientology is the relegating of sympathy as a down tone thing.

    The relegating of sympathy as low toned is demonstrated by post, even though it is ensconced in the rhetoric of personal responsibility.

    Your post is a perfect example of how Scientology can disconnect a person from there emotions that connect to other’s pain.

    Ron was master at not giving a shit about low toned victims.

    And you have demonstrated mastery of his method by dissing all victims of cult mentality.

    And now you will be angry.

  144. And feel mis duplicated. And wrong indicated, and invalidated, and wrong itemed, and attacked, and suppressed, and need to run ruds, and start down the road of ultimate victim by considering I am an SP with the power to take away your wins.

  145. L.Ron Hubbard and his method has created in a large number of people, not all, a steely armored defense mechanism around the ego, backed up but years of education despising victim hood while at the same time having “standard tech scientific reasons” for being a victim.

    PTS, BTs, Third Party Law, wrong indication, being invalidated, mis duplicated, reactive mind, wrong tech applied, mis applied, blowing=victimized by overts,

    The cognitive dissonance is so damn loud.

    The brainwashing is so deep.

    I have read that one cult expert says that Scientology brainwashing is the most diabolical of any of the cults.

  146. “Dedicated to fault finding” not my point of view oracle. I am dedicated to being an iconoclast to the benevolent world savior PR that L.Ron Hubbard created for himself that victimized so many.

    What you see as my negativity is your own reaction to my hammer on the graven image that you Mirildi and Elizabeth are holding together with duct tape.

    Maybe one day you will get it. Maybe not:-)

  147. And my dear Oracle, I have looked at my intention for being here on this blog many times. There are a number of reasons.

    One that is major: this is my amends for bringing so many people into Scientology and people into the Sea Org.

    I was very good at disseminating. I was very good a promoting Hubbard.

    If I can reach only one person to rethink his or her views towards Ron I will feel good. And what you think of me or my intentions is non of my business. You have every right to consider me a negative fool.

    Maybe one day you will see differently, maybe not.

    I believe Scientology to be a dangerous cult with sanctified super egos trumpeting delusional cause, trained in introverting delusional scientism, with the only 8th dynamic being a super powered self willing machine, with condescension to other practices, a delusional paranoid guru, rigid fixed well studied ideas that disconnect normal human emotions from the heart and plant them firmly in self righteous mind doctrines that crush sympathy.

    Constantly using references to HCOBs as explanations, constantly using Scientology speak to describe life’s phenomena, relating ones own thoughts back to LRH’s to see if it is approved thinking.

    The mind of a Scientologist, not all, start taking on the mind of Hubbard. Normal human life starts getting filtered through well studied regimented thought control.

    And what is the result: an arrogant elitist that thinks that “what is true for me is true and that is all that is true.” No standards of a Transcendent Moral Compass. Adhering to no Higher anything except what the ego has dreamed up to be “truth.”

    Certainly wonderful experiences and cognitions occur in Scientology.

    But when you go into the hospital to remove a brain tumor, the doctor doesn’t then point out how well your toes are doing.

    It is the tumor that needs an operation. Some aspects of Scientology are like a cancer.

    The policies attempting to destroy Marty and Mosey are being followed to the letter by Miscavige.

    L Ron Hubbard was a dangerous mentally unstable man.

    If I can get one true believer to attempt this reasoning, I will feel like I helped a brother or sister.

  148. Marildi
    The service facsimile. Now that is the right question.

    A computation used in present time, based on earlier, confusing, forgotten events. Then: I was hurt and needed help and got it. Now: I want help, so I’ll be hurt. The computation is after the fact. It is being used in the now. It includes but is not limited to making others wrong and getting sympathy. It is a junior consideration. Any creative thought used in the present based on earlier aberrant thought. In Scn., it is based on MEST reactive mind. This is incomplete.

    The most basic, original, fundamental decisions, considerations, fixed opinions were created when there was no threat to survival. No fear of loss of any kind, no attacks, no problems.

    It was later decisions, due to new and changing conditions and interaction that gave rise to confusion, conflict. The original operating procedures were pure and certain. But they gave rise to the uncertainty that followed later. The original decisions were perfect, at the time. But they stuck. The missing solution is the ability to change your mind. To un-fix your opinions while retaining the useful knowledge gained.

    This requires looking. This requires effort. The aversion to effort will evaporate after awhile. Then it’s all fun and adventure. Really!!!!


  149. Erzsebet
    “God love you…..God love him.” Was originally a Southeastern US phrase. It was superior, demeaning and a little sarcastic. “He is so bad off, God has to love him.” It has since become a humorous phrase, making fun of southern speech and clever, funny phrases.
    There was no significant intent behind it.

    You are especially bright and it actually was intended as humorous contrast. An intentional outpoint.

  150. Hi Brian.
    Take a look at my comment on Ser. Facs. that I addressed to Marildi. It broadens and clarifies the definition of the phenomenon. You may already understand it well. It’s good to see it clarified in an understandable way. It’s not all about “making wrong”.

  151. Brian, Oracle.
    Maybe I’m just lucky. I take everything said to everyone personally. But I take it all with joy. I love this site.

    Earlier today, I saw an instance where another individual did something I didn’t agree with. I decided I didn’t want to be like him. I tracked it back up the track and found some times that it caused some errors in actions. It was soooooo funny and sooooo simple. My lady thought it was so cool that the rest of the day, I knew what she was about to do and joined her before she started. She is now looking forward to her birthday. I know what to get her.

    Finding agreement is so easy now. I’m in a really good mood.

  152. burnedbutnotbitter

    Thank you Gato Rojo, the first two paragraphs nails it for me also.

  153. Erzsebet:
    I see what your saying. I have experienced and caused my share of unspeakable horrors. It takes some guts to view parts of the past and realize that it was actually you and not just some stray pictures dredged up from some ownerless vault.
    I also see what you mean about creating the evil around you. Like saying that your left hand is evil for cutting that guys throat, but your right hand is good for feeding that little girl.

    We are all individuals, independent and responsible. But we are all connected in a fundamental way.

  154. Erzsebet:
    My main question was if you remembered this guy and the ‘playgrounds’ he built. He was quite popular.

  155. Thoughts I have had in the last few days, inspired by some of my exchanges here:

    Being out for 30+ years and studying other paths and meeting with all sorts of people I have come to the conclusion that Scientology can created a sort of pseudo spiritual awareness.

    “My reality” “my point of view” “my truth” “truth I create” “my universe” “my my my my me me me me” is a tragic outcome to years spent in quest of freedom.

    I think constantly auditing BTs on and on and on creates an introverted person who only sees self as a reference to experience. Self becomes the significance to all things.

    I have made criticisms of Ron, and some here have taken it as criticism of them. That got me thinking.

    It is my reality that these folks who are arguing to protect Hubbard are solo auditing as the final technique left them by a man who suffered delusions.

    I now see the OT band auditing as dangerous, if you continue to audit day in and day out.

    The constant looking for objects in the mind, body etc can, in my opinion, cause a distortion in a normal personality.

    A sort of mini Hubbard.

    The grades were and are a great upgraded Freudian therapy.

    The OT levels are an implant into a delusional distorted reality. I plead to others looking to do them to wait till Marty’s next book, or do his course before you continue.


    Let the reactions begin! :-)))

  156. What the OT levels run:

    1) possible disembodied entities (not R6, that is delusional)
    2) concepts clothed in R6 symbolism
    3) cellular memories clothed in R6 symbolism
    4) past life memories clothed in R6 symbolism
    5) rare but possible memories from space opera cultures from other parts of the universe clothed in R6 symbolism.
    6) imagination based on strong belief in Ron: a hypnotic suggestion

    L Ron Hubbard took a very hard turn off the track of sanity with the OT band. He never arrived at spiritual realization of the soul. It was always something from the past, something in the mind to run.

    At the end of his life, the man who created the processes you are running now wanted to electrocute himself to rid himself of BTs.
    He was delusional at the end and was having Sarge go around his ranch to locate BTs.

    True believers will say,” how do I know this is true?”

    If the man who created the OT band had this end to life experience, do you really think that running this stuff will free you?

    Some of you will think about me the way you do and that is fine. Your mind is made up.




    Please give this some thought, please!!

  157. And the highest OT level available, the ultimate final freedom gift to man, besides some simple processes, is his claim to be the Anti-Christ that is stated in the bible. Do you get that?

    There will be people on this blog that are OK with that and will find such sophistry to support such dark nonsense.

    Your spiritual teacher died wishing electrocution from suicide to rid himself of BTs.

    He warred his whole life against electro shock therapy then wish for it at the end. What does that say about his process that you have lived your lives to find out?????

    OT 8………… I,Ron, am the Anti Christ!!
    At his life’s end…………… Create an emeter to kill me and my BTs!!!
    At lifes end………. had Sarge searching the ranch for BTs!!!!

    This is the end of the Bridge.

    He never made it across.

    He cannot take you across.

    The OT materials is an implant into his delusions

    Psyches from Farsec????!!!!!!

    Anti Scientologists are ALL criminals??!!!!

    Do you Independents think you could ever be accepted by society with this Sword of Damocles hanging over your history, hanging over you chosen path?

    Do you think legitimacy could ever be yours with this cult fantasia dangling in the face of reason?

    Those who see justification in this craziness, any kind, have had their common sense capacity highjacked by word clearing and belief.

    A dangerous belief that shuts down real spiritual freedom.

    No Sage has ever presented this hog wash for consumption.

    Think about it please!!!!!

  158. Elizabeth Hamre

    Must been in a different universe.

  159. Elizabeth Hamre

    Mark.. I have no reason to be angry… I no longer carry the burden of belief that I am the one who can change the universe and take the suffering away. I also believe that first and foremost one has responsibility for looking after self, by sorting out what I have caused and how I have effected the Universe.. and make amends. Till one don’t take responsibility for self by confronting what one has created one will not realise how ones creations have effected others.. In other word, one really do not know who has caused the problems, the ARCB’s. How you see, what you see is yours alone.. Do have a good day. But if you don’t because you are upset of the condition of the Planet etc… just see… and think it over how your upset has helped correcting the existing problems. In fact your upset, anger just adding fueling the already existing turbulence.

  160. Elizabeth Hamre

    Mark…. regardless who created what.. if you see it, experience it, what you experience is your creation for that feeling, for your thought, beliefs you have you are responsible. But there are many different viewpoints on the same item and for those too, knowing them again one is responsible.. My reality is: what ever I know, what ever I experience is mine… The most fun, the greatest adventure is to explore these realities-beliefs and find out what made me believe in them.. what made me think they were real and that they were mine in the first place… HEHEHE.. .. great fun…

  161. Elizabeth Hamre

    Keep it on mind that we are on the path of learning and each Entity is where it is needs to be in order to learn from that experience. You have not walked my path therefore you cant be the judge where I am at how I see the universe around me…

  162. I agree, Elizabeth, with everything you’ve said.

  163. Except the anger and upset part. Actually, intense interest, learning and re looking at past psychological imprints I consider toxic from Hubbard.

    Also, hopes for making it OK for folks to see that LRH had some mental problems.

    But you are the wrong audience as that is not your reality.

    I realize non of us truly know each other. But as a result of having LRH apologists judge me by claiming my purpose is to interbulate, key people in, being negative and other characteristics less than the benevolence they claim they have, I have decided to speak up for myself in principle.

    My posts are about Hubbard. Not me.

    When I answered your question about betrayal. You responded to no point I made. Nada, zip not one.

    You only claimed that I was negative and then proceeded to say Ron was a great genius.

    That is something that I have seen on these posts with some. Make a point about Hubbard and some will make a point about you and avoid the issue.

    That has been my experience. Not with all, but with some.

  164. Thanks, Mark. I totally got it. You explained it well.

  165. Good on you, Mark!

  166. Brian: “Think about it please!!!!!”

    I thought about it already, a while back. Even though you have it speciously justified, I don’t think you are fooling many people. Your posts fit every point of the definition of a TROLL:

    “In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows DISCORD on the Internet by starting ARGUMENTS or UPSETTING PEOPLE, by posting INFLAMMATORY, EXTRANEOUS, or OFF-TOPIC messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally or with the DELIBERATE INTENT OF PROVOKING readers into an emotional response or of otherwise DISRUPTING normal on-topic discussion.” (my caps)

    That’s my last comment before I cease feeding the troll.

  167. martyrathbun09

    You aren’t doing Scientology any favors with your evaluating, labelling and name calling.

  168. And I consider people deflect when criticizing Ron because of all the years of training of the evil of criticizing Ron.

    People will say'” he was only human, he had faults like the rest of us” etc.

    But bring up atrocities and evil acts by him and be prepared for having your motive twisted into a Scientology speak diatribe.

    It’s curious………. people will accept he had faults, but bring up those actual faults and the years of brainwashing kicks in.

    And those that say ,”he was only human” start on personal attacks when Ron’s life is brought up.

    There is a trigger in the mind that gets flipped. A hypnotic suggestion that has become a “point of view” :

    Criticizing of hubbard is evil. You paid for those Sec Check questions. You hid from the real answer for years.

    The externalization of that lay in implant is to impune the character of those who dare to reveal the truth of the man.

  169. It’s true that what I wrote is an evaluation. But what I see happening is a stream of evaluation, exaggeration and needling – just in the series of posts directly above, let alone all the others. That, to me, is much more offensive than my pointing it out, which I thought should be done.

  170. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian, just becauseone have left the church or was kicked out, that do not means one has to go agree with the church that we are cut of from attaining that dream. Interestingly we all gotten fired up hearing or reading LRH’s words about the spiritual freedom, that we can have if we just take courses and have auditing. We were all of us keyed out, we were aglow and promised to our self that YES WE WILL FREE our self from the constricting way of believes and become free.
    Just because one is now not in that environment which has stopped one, the dream is not dead unless you have buried it under the many excuses.
    The Bridge is available to any one and one do not have to buy the politics as well when paying for the courses or the intensives. I left the church in 82 as a full OT7 NOT’s completion and I also had Integrity Rundown 3 intensive of that which was about Overts/Witholds. I had time of my life confronting the bad-evil nasty self…In my reality one has immense gains by confronting those well hidden actions of the past. So Dear Brian.. it is truly up to you, care to stay with being the victim or move on. You can write to me any time you feel like.. And I do understand what you are saying… Best. Elizabeth PS: you don’t have to agree with anything I say, believe in.. agreements solidify and I don’t need the reassurance in any ways that I am right or wrong you see, words including mine I don’t hold it as something valuable. Just think, how many words were spoken and where are they now? hehehe But thank you! 🙂

  171. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian… while one walks on the Path of Enlightenment there is no right or wrong one has to give those concepts up. The need to be right will melt away when all the wrong is confronted. Since one cant exist without the other and when that happens than just IS, and that is the faction of the moment of creation-experience.

  172. martyrathbun09

    And that is why to the relatively sane Scientologists come off like amateur psychiatrists.

  173. Thank you Elizabeth for you words. They are comforting. I feel like you talked to me. Thank you.

    I have my reasons for pushing these buttons if you will. It is only since I found Marty’s blog about two years ago now that my strong feeling to communicate about Ron has arisen.

    My life is dedicated to this goal of liberation. I too left in 82. I have been 24/7 on the path since a very young boy. It could be considered that my constantly nudging is evidence of that not being true. But it is.

    I would have to disagree with you though on one of your points, that there is no right and wrong on the path. There is a definite Higher Code of ethics taught by all the sages. I know not one who claims that ethics to be relative.

    And it is in Ron’s claiming top dog status as a sage while blatantly disregarding common standards of decency that I protest fiercely.
    He has sullied the status of sage in my view.

    It is my view that it is in the confident belief of Ron’s messiahship that we Scientologists, most of us, have inculcated into our mental landscape, world views and wrong knowledge that surrender authentic self into a person that only sees life through the “only way” status that Ron regimented into our young minds.

    In my opinion, it is in the freeing the person to be critical of Ron that will de hypnotize folks from limiting doctrines.

    And one that is dear to my heart is freeing Scientologists so that they can move on. Whether that continue being Scientologists like yourself, or moving on to other teachers, other paths: like myself.

    Ron made it clear that he was the only one to free us. And in doing that he booby trapped minds by completely relying on him as the only road out.

    I consider “only way” regimented thinking a spiritual crime as it causes dependence and no choice if you believe what he said about himself.

    So many people reading these blogs are who I am talking to. You, Mirildi and Oracle are not the only people on the other end of the line.
    But you have put yourselves on my lines. That is fine. We share ideas.
    But I must tell you I have had to discipline myself because you guys made it personal about me. All three of you have impugned my character. It has not bothered me but it has inspired me to write what I wrote above. I have pointed out actual real world atrocities and you guys have found fault with me. Fine, if you must, you must.

    Many people coming out do not know any of the data that you guys feel I am spewing for negative reasons.

    Some people are hearing this all for the first time. And it is important to know, that they can be critical if they want. For decades Scientologist’s families and lively hoods have been threatened by Ron’s policies of criticism.

    To claim to be the only road out is a spiritual crime as it keeps people glued to abuse because they think they will go to Scientology’s version of eternal damnation if they leave Scientology.

    Ron instigated that dogma. It has caused untold trauma in those that have believed in him and now are orphaned because of a sadistic madman at the present helm.

    Being freely critical of Ron is the lynch pin that will begin the process of true self determination: from my point of view of course.

    Have you ever had a critical thought toward L.Ron Hubbard?


    Thank you, your needle is floating

  174. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian…. Have you ever had a critical thought toward L.Ron Hubbard?
    Thank you, your needle is floating
    HEHEHE.. you assume too much, you assume you know my universe and it is similar to yours..It is not now but it has been before I and that before was 40 years back.
    I have confronted a my ARCB’s over 20 years back and I found all my O/W’s toward LRH and any group I ever been connected to.. I cleaned the track therefore it do not exist what you imply.
    My battling and crusading days for whatever ideas I have had about others and the Universe are over.
    I do not have the need or want to convince anyone of anything what they should or should not do.
    Brian, to me the Auditing Tech which LRH has compiled was the answer for which I have been searching for.
    When that Tech is used one can accomplish everything what it promised will do when it is used properly.
    I have been using the TECH as a SOLO AUDITOR since 76 after I have done the OT Levels and since then I have attained not only what LRH put on the Great Chart was attainable, since what he has written was his reality but I attained my own understanding what is Spirituality .
    Please go to my blog and read that post, I won’t print it here since I don’t want Marty to kick my skinny ass for taking up tooo much space..
    But Brian… when one want to accomplish something one need to have ALL the facts about the subject.. you only have part of it. ‘ ‘To walk the walk of the Solo Auditor: the Path of Enlightenment. ‘’
    Do have a lovely day! Elizabeth PS;; I don’t do politics… it is not on the Path I walk on. 🙂

  175. Hello Marty and Monica
    just keep strong , fly your ruds on each other ,
    Arc & krc
    Darren may

  176. Hi Brian

    I have been following your posts with interest, and this latest one demonstrates your sincerity. The problem lies in what we have INTERNALISED. That which one has internalised has become part of them. Read my post to Marildi 3.2.14 on Monique Rathbun vs. David Miscavige.

    An example might be an abused spouse, abuse cannot happen until the relationship has been internalised and once that has occurred the only way of becoming free is through FORGIVENESS.

    Bonny Woods left the CofS and became a “born again” Christian and as a result is very anti Scientology and LRH. But in truth what she has done is exchange one trap for another. Level I assures us that there is only one way to help and that is by UNDERSTANDING, anything else is “compulsive help” and will end in BETRAYAL. As a “born again Christian” Bonny should have forgiven the CofS not renounced/denounced it.

    I acknowledge that you have a real love for your fellow man but LOVE without UNDERSTANDING is INEFFECTUAL. LOVE with UNDERSTANDING is DIVINE.

  177. Elizabeth Hamre

    O……”The most difficult force to bear is the ser fac. Because there is always a way to make you wrong. Always. If your goal is to “be right”, you have already set yourself up for an unattainable goal. I think the only way to be free is in a willingness to be totally wrong.”””
    In my reality the only way one becomes free of the reasons why one is wrong or want to make others wrong and why is right, want to be at all cost .. is erasing both side of those existing realities.

  178. Elizabeth Hamre

    Hi You have a Hungarian computer board, I don’t. and my Hungarian is really bad… But I got what you write.. but who wants US to do that? 🙂 I already did my penances… I no longer apologize since I realised long time back that I received equal amount what I have given in EVERY SENSE! You see, when one gives to others in any form one has the same , since I could not give if I would not have what to give from…
    The positive held the negative in place and the negative held the positive intact. Are you Hungarian born?

  179. “The positive held the negative in place and the negative held the positive intact.”

    Well said, E. Thanks for bringing in the correct perspective!

  180. My posting that question was not aimed at you Elizabeth. I was posting it as a broad idea to anyone. Sorry for not being clear.

    I am glad you have found your own with Scientology. Free investigation is what the pursuit of truth is about.

    Regarding having all the facts, it is true I do not.

    But I do have an opinion regarding R6 and other related things.

    You have stated that you have attained everything the grade chart says. Is That the old grade chart as well.

    Would you be willing to test your assertions for attainment of the grade chart?

    I mean no disrespect, I would simply like to test. Demonstration is the final stage of realized truth. Would you care to a test?

  181. PIp I think that there is a few more steps before forgiveness.

    First one has to acknowledge the abuse. To forgive before acknowledgement of abuse can be enabling. I have no personal issues with LRH. Lol, you guys may thing that is laughable but I do not.

    I appreciate the kind hearted gestures to help ole Brian stuck in an LRH mind funk, to get unstuck.

    I am here for one, maybe a few more, reasons: to make it OK for Scientologists to criticize Ron.

    Actually I can say a lot about what I have learned from him. But that is not why I am here.

    We are all brothers and sisters of this vast experience.

    The Infinite Presence has dreamed this cosmos and all planes of existence into being for the purpose of love and play.

    The perception of the soul, who we are, is so beautiful. The joy can be overwhelming.

    Oh Infinite Spirit, undifferenciated yet varied in this great life, I see myself in others. Such love no tongue can tell.

    Across the airwaves I feel your ripples come. Like waves you reach my shore of receptivity. And I send you back my waves of feeling, knowing that you have been touched.

    Cloaked in this Ron criticism, I use this camoflouge to secret into the unseen feelings of friends long past, yet present always.

    May this Scientology diaspora find the healing waters of directly perceived immortal widom. Ever new and ever free.

    Don’t take me to seriously, I am not who you think.

    Until next mind ping pong.

    Blessings on us all:-)

  182. Elizabeth Hamre

    Yes Brian, I am very willing, but I wont because I don’t need to prove anything to any one and I don’t have the need or desire to convince any one that I have attained what I have. Here at this state, the right, or wrong, don’t exist. Most of all agreement is not needed from any one, or any group, to prove that my reality is real and only matters because others too agree that yes it is so because we say it is sooo…. HEHEHE… you see, you don’t have the reality of my Universe, what I know, so how the heck you think you could test my reality if it is so? you want to evaluate my reality? you only can do that when you have erased all your connection of the MEST universe.

  183. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian PS; opinions are not facts are they?

  184. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian… I have done the OT levels in 76 so that has to be the old chart. I never seen any other since I left in 82.. I been thinking over your request… When some one is asking for proof that happens because that person has doubts already.. in fact don’t believe a word and that person is you… and you want me to convince you and of course you just want to make me wrong… 🙂 silly game that would be.

  185. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian I seldom quote… But here is a bit “The teachings of Hubbard do offer many possibilities of helping people – be it with regard to their
    troubles and sorrows or their psychosomatic illnesses. How one uses this body of knowledge, is a
    different matter. Whether one uses it successfully or not, depends on how well one understands it.”
    I truly understand the power of the auditing technology and what it can do when used. I have done just that for 40 years. not one day went by when I did not have a session and some sessions were long as 10 hours… When one has a tool a incredible technology in ones possession which can change the daily life, the incoming energy flows why would that person bother to keep the negative considerations and spread it? Why not simply spread the knowledge one gains from continual realizations which is there after each session? I feel.. my reality is that if people would really understand the power behind the Tech.. man oh man… their time would be spent in session and not in blogging.

  186. Thanks for your reply Brian. I agree the first step is to acknowledge “the abuse”, although I prefer the idea of acknowledging one has been hurt, but that is a very personal thing and it cannot be done for another person.

    I am not quite sure why you would be fighting in another’s corner unless having been invited to do so, surely that is “knowing best” isn’t it?

    You often mention the word criticise” however in my dictionary it has two very distinct meanings. 1. To judge (something) with disapproval; censure. 2. To evaluate or analyse (something). Number one I find degrading. Number two I find helpful.

    I would be glad to hear what benefits you have personally gained from the tech. of Scientology.

    We are indeed all “brothers and sisters” but not necessarily of the same father. I would be interested to know more about this “Infinite Presence” you refer to. You refer to “the soul” as being “who we are”, this is probably the biggest misunderstanding in Scientology because you BECAME a soul, your true identity is SPIRIT. It is the fact that you “believe” you are a soul that brings about DEATH. “The soul that sins shall die” Ezekiel 18:20

    You mention “Infinite Spirit” I take by that you mean GOD, and since you are “made in God’s image and likeness” Genesis 1:26-27 you are in a way acknowledging that you are spirit.

    As for you being aware I have “been touched” you would not be the first to make that observation!

    You say “cloaked in this Ron criticism” is that a synonym for “a valance”?

    I will endeavour not to “take you too seriously” since “the old man” said “Seriousness equals mass” and I recognise you as NO – THING, but the CREATOR of THINGS and as the Axioms point out “Any effect is better than no effect”. Question! Who is doing the pinging and who is ponging?


  187. Interesting post Elizabeth. It reminds me of the allegory of the two trees in the Garden of Eden. One is the tree of life and the other is the tree of death (the knowledge of good and evil).

    The need “to be right” comes from eating of the tree of good and evil, but the more you eat of it the deader one becomes which only accentuates the need to be right. As LRH has said “how wrong can you be – DEAD WRONG”.

    When we collectively chose to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil we died spiritually and now exist as a SOUL (being dead spiritually) we are destined to live in time forever reincarnating until we come to our senses and realise that as you say “we are DEAD WRONG (totally wrong) – at that point we are ready to start our journey home as in true Prodigal Son style, we have “COME TO OUR SENSES”.

  188. I was hoping you could make me wrong, or contribute to the workability of a standard out come as the grade chart trumpets

    We had a discussion a while ago about Ron not liking proof as well.

    So much for science, observable outcome.

    My truth, my reality, my universe, my created truth, my ape in the back seat of the taxi.

    Please, I mean you know disrespect Elizabeth. But you have made a point I have been making. As hard as it is to make, as I would rather not make, you have made it.

    At some level in the Scientology discipline, truth and thought, truth and one’s belief, truth and personal consideration become the same.

    I believe this maginary blending of observable fact, direct perception of known phenomenon with a ” what is true for me is true and anyone wanting to test my truth is trying to make me wrong” is the essence of what is wrong and dangerous with Hubbard’s system.

    Verification becomes a bad thing. A desire to verify becomes interpreted as a desire to invalidate.

    There is a lot of thought manipulation that goes into such a twisted logic.
    Not the least of which is faith.

  189. “The highest attainment of truth, is to the attainment of one’s own illusions.”
    L.Ron Hubbard

    Scientology is not the road out, nor the road to truth.

    A great deal of Scientology is the supporting of illusions as truth. Not all of it.

    When PCs deal with known issues as with the grades and creative processes etc, Scientology can be brilliant in resolving known and commonly unknown issues; with the occasional past life recall which resolves chains of associated experiences. But these memories are the PCs and only the PCs.

    In the OT band, the PCs memories become Ron’s, and go against the basic rules of auditing: do not evaluate for the PC.

    In the OT band is where Ron defines his Cosmology, his war with good and evil, Ron’s version of eternal damnation: not being a Scientologist and running OT3.

    Whole track time dating, defining past earth experiences that fly in the face of geological, biological, anthropoloical and astronomical science (hell, who needs proof! Proof will just invalidate), with fantacy stories about the Great Jesus, psyches, all religions (except those started by Ron), delusional cause; many OT success stories etc, all start the mental state of a Scientologist down the dangerous road of associating needle reactions with truth, imagination as truth, faith and belief as scientific outcome, Ron as the wisest man in the universe of forever, delusional as reality….. On and on.

    Only belief can be threatened with proof. Only faith can feel invalidated by reasoned investigation. Truth, if it is truth, welcomes doubt. For doubt is truth’s greatest supporter.

    Why? Because with reasoned scrutiny and logical investigation truth is revealed as true. No one promotes a thing more than a person who doubted and now sees the truth of a thing.

    Avoidance of reasoned investigation is evidence of fear for having faith crumble beneath the weight of scrutiny.

    Truth eats scrutiny for breakfast

  190. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip. hello. “Question! Who is doing the pinging and who is ponging?” when experienced than there is no question to whom the experience belongs to.

  191. Elizabeth Hamre

    P…..Hehehe yes totally wrong because being right is wrong too. Sometimes back some one told me “” you know it all” and that has taken me by surprise since I could not go into session if I was right, know it already.. in fact by now after 40 years of solo auditing I have found out just how wrong I have been, even on the most trusted reliable facts, truth I believed in.. and even the pleasure moments which I have confronted melted away… so how right I have been? 🙂
    Ps; on earlier post…. soon as the Entity put out the consideration, I am, being this and that, with that instantly identify with matter=energy.

  192. You can use both definitions. They can both be applicable.

    What I have learned from my experience in Scientology:

    1) great love of words and etymology
    2) the power of listening as a healing tool when loved ones or friends in crisis
    3) the habit of looking within the mind for the causes of circumstances without.
    4) the habit of seeing chains of associated experiences and finding earlier ones for resolution.
    5) being a better listener in general
    6) after a long day of work in close quarters, looking out far to balance energy field.
    7) being in an environment with friends working on spiritual freedom.
    8) continuation of my already in place practice of differenciating between soul and body.
    9) developing a mental habit of seeing that I can survive to help on a planetary scale. The earth became a little smaller and my ability to make changes became a little bigger.

    Those are some positive experiences I made for myself through my connection to Ron.

    Regarding the soul: I was on the spiritual path years before Scientology. Every wisdom school I agree with does not claim the soul to be a possession, like a car or chair.
    Being made in the image of God, the soul is a perfect reflection. And the Supreme Being having no beginning or end, the soul being made in It’s image, also has no beginning or end.

    We, being individualized souls are similar to cups filled with water beneath a moonlit sky. Look into each cup and we find a perfect reflection of the entire moon in each cup. Is the reflection the moon ItSelf? No, but it is a perfect reflection. And each cup has this reflection. So each of us is a child of God, a perfect reflection of his nature.

    Infinite Presence: read Brother Lawrence’s book Practicing the Presence and you will know what I mean.
    There is only one God, only one Divine Presence.

    “Cloaked in criticism of Ron” was me waxing poetic. Interpret it as you will. It was me acknowledging that these blogs can take on a telepathic quality sometimes, and I am acknowledging that I am talking to souls I may have known before.

    Am I a “know it all” on this blog? Yeah, probably. I can be an opinionated fool. 
    Is my intention to only be an opinionated fool? No, not at all.

    I believe what I have to offer by way of criticism is incredibly important. And what others think of my motive is non of my concern.

    Ping pong is simply a metaphor or analogy for spirited dialog, back and forth of ideas between we who disagree sometimes. It is a healthy thing. Actually it is essential for the well being of society to be free to disagree and not be concerned about the thought police.

    I love Jesus, not always the churches that are in His name. I love Christian philosophy but have great disagreements with some Christian theology. I make a distinction between them. 
    I am no fan of Constantine and the destruction of wisdom schools at Nicea.

    And it is my opinion that Christ is no fan of it also.

    Pip, I hope I answered your questions. Thanks for asking. 

    Blessing to you and your loved ones.

  193. And to be clear to those who are uncomfortable with the term God or who prefer a Buddhist view here is what I have been taught by the sages:

    The term for a thing does not in any way affect the reality of a thing. So water is called water or agua. The words are only used to symbolize in vibratory form a convenience in relating realities.


    The term Consciousness can be replaced with the word God. Many are the names of that which is Transcendent:

    Satori, Nirvana, God Consciousness, Cosmic Consciousness, Christ Consciousness, Samadhi, The Tao, Liberation, Mukti, The Static, The Void, Wakan Tanka. 

    Principles not labels are king as far as truth is concerned

  194. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip… after eraser of the rights and all the wrongs, the experiences are no longer good or bad… they are just experiences and when I decide to take a side, well that can be either or both at the same time or none at all. And of course nothing has importance or value [MEST] therefore there is no fear that I might lose something, or not being something …. 🙂 It taken me long time being on the Path of Learning and when I have ”’arrived”’ I realised I never left! 🙂

  195. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip… PS: being this or being that, doing or not doing, never ever feels right, always something there nagging…never perfect harmony, something always missing and when one finally erases all the creation-experiences, when finally all identities melt away, no more ”me, I, mine” than there is Harmony for which one searched and never have found in the MEST Universe.

  196. Hi Brian.
    Good to ‘speak’ with you again.
    I have to get something straightened out. When I began following Marty’s site, I noticed a few people that I considered Ron and Scn. bashers. I thought they were individuals who had been harmed by individuals in the church and now, because of their own case, were simply bent on destroying all the good and bad in Scn.

    I first read your posts a few months ago and put you in the same category.

    THAT WAS AN ERROR ON MY PART. Not only concerning you but all individuals posting comments and even beyond that. I have learned much since then about you, others and especially myself. I argued with you and discounted and belittled some of the things you said to the point of subtle sarcasm and even a bit of superiority.


    We often disagree on some issues and details. I have not seen and experienced the things that you have, and you have not seen and done the things that I have. We are simply different, but we have common goals. I evaluated you with little data. I had made some gains and discoveries and was of the attitude that I was right and others must be MADE to understand. I have since resolved SOME of the errors in thinking which led to this error. I have also learned even more that it is not enough to resolve a past track confusion. One must see in present time how things work after the confusion is resolved. This requires living, interacting.

    I want to thank you for your patience and assistance.

    Also, I wanted to ask you what problems you have observed with R6EW techniques. I have incorporated the principals of opposing intentions into some of my work and have found them valuable when done at the right time under the right circumstances. It is not meant to be a cure all and can remove some of the structure of the MEST bank. It falls short in that it does not attempt to completely resolve the issues it addresses. When I have used the methods of R6, it often opened up, for me, areas of concern that I then went on to locate the basic source.

    Additional data would be very helpful. I can understand how some could get into trouble on this.

  197. Wow Mark, I read this while making coffee this morning and was moved. I almost cried.
    Ladies, check to see if this man is married or not. Behold a humble man!!
    Capable of constructive self criticism and self correction. You are an honorable man Mark. Namaste 🙂

    Regarding the “confidential” (not so anymore) materials my first thought is that Marty may be the best guy to communicate about it. Maybe he will deal with this in some of his next writings.

    Some thoughts though:

    I had a friend some years back who was a trust fund kid. I was kinda jealous of him because he always got auditing when the new stuff came out. Did all the Ls, most all OT levels, everything that money can buy he bought. I believe he also did some training.

    Then one day in the early eighties when we all flew the coop as Scientology was started to exude an odor we spoke on the phone and he asks me,” Brian, do you think OT 3 is real”? Hell I thought, you’ve spent literally hundreds of thousands of dollars, done all the “this one will really free you” breakthroughs when they came out, got auditing at flag most of the time and you are asking me???

    I think the first step to answering any question regarding OT type materials is to ask a logical question and then pursue your own line of reasoning and come up with your own answers.

    But first there must be the possibility that it may not be true to have a question. There are no questions if the mind has concluded that it is true beyond a shadow of doubt. That Ron said so, that I blew charge when running it so it must be true. And anybody dare consider it not to be true is a Ron hater, a Scientology hater and a negative poopoo head.

    First look at the assertions he made to view it from a circumstantial perspective that questions the credibility of his spoken word :

    1) Ron said that he broke his back, almost did not come through it, it was the toughest thing he ever did. His PR face to this was he was in a battle with the Wall of Fire. Here is the physical reality of an eye witness.

    “Hubbard had spent the last weeks of 1966 “researching” OT3 in North Africa. In a letter of the time, he admitted that he was taking drugs (“pinks and grays”) to assist his research. 16 Early in 1967, Hubbard flew to Las Palmas, and Virginia Downsborough , who cared for him after his arrival, was astonished that he was existing almost totally on a diet of drugs. For three weeks Hubbard was bedridden, while Downsborough weaned him off this diet. According to her, he was obsessed with removing his “body-thetans.”

    Virginia said his body was grey from drinking rum and popping pills for days and days with no food. OT 3 was done in a drug stupor.
    Google it and see for yourself.

    2) Ron said that anyone attempting to go through OT 3 without doing it his way will most likely die from pneumonia and freewheel.

    Do you know one person that that happened to? Just one?

    3) He claimed that one of the Volcanoes were in Hawaii.

    Hawaii did not exist 75 million years ago

    Mark, these are just some discrepancies that anyone can use to see this “as it is”.

    All that is required is some interest in finding the truth.

    One of the elements that can make it hard for the died in the wool Scientologist, are the great cogs they have had running it.

    That is another question which can be answered also. There are definite metaphysical reasons that running BTs and space opera can cause cogs.

    I have given it two years of consideration and a lot of words can be written about it.

    Maybe Marty can do it with more zing in his step when he gets to it.

    But ultimately………… any process that can cause a differentiation between the being who inhabits a body, and anything emotional, mental or physical will free a person to some degree.

    In the east it is called Jnana Yoga: the liberation using knowledge to tell the difference between consciousness and it’s projections.

    This uncomfortable feeling in me is not me, it is this BT or mental thought of pain or limitation.

    The energy is there. The concepts are there to run. But the story and form of OT 3, as an accurate representation of those concepts and energies are not accurate.

    I believe I could convince someone who thought I was a messiah, to run the Evil Cauliflower incident. That in the beginning of time there was an evil cauliflower that today is dramatizing as little cauliflower’s in the grocers. I could make it that it takes you years to find out about it and finally when you arrive at the data and run it, you will assign concepts to the symbols in my story. Real concepts that have to do with pain, unconsciousness etc because those experiences are inherent within all beings.

    You run the concepts by way of the imagery I implant into your receptive mind and you will feel relieved by running actual concepts or memories cloaked in R6 and OT 3 symbolism.

    I predict that is stuff will be taken apart by many intelligent ex Scientologists in the near future.

  198. Hi Brian

    I have found your last three posts so interesting that I have printed them off so that I can give them my full attention. So rather than answering them individually I will combine them into one reply!

    To start with perhaps we can clear up what I see as the difference between ABUSE and HURT. Most therapies worth the name involve the client getting in touch with their feelings. Abuse is like the EXTERNAL WORD, hurt is what it FEELS like, it’s the INTERNAL experience. So with me whether I was abused by the CofS is not the issue it is about how I felt, and that was HURT.

    You mention that you are familiar with several “wisdom schools” but there is a vast difference between the “wisdom of men” and “the wisdom of God”. Granted there have been many inspired sages down through history, but it is necessary to know the difference between MAN INSPIRED WISDOM and GOD INSPIRED WISDOM. For instance, the bible says “The word of God is sharper than any two edged sword, and can divide between SOUL and SPIRIT”. This verse tells us the SOUL and SPIRIT are not the same idea. In Genesis it does not say the soul was made in the image of God, it says “Man is made in the image of God”. The soul is not mentioned until Chapter 2 where it says “Man BECAME a living soul”. Once man had become a LIVING SOUL he was capable of autonomy from God. The soul is the seat of THE EMOTIONS, THE INTELLECT and THE WILL, and because each of us has chosen autonomy from God we must die. However because our true identity is SPIRIT, we cannot die, so we must reincarnate, only to die yet again ad infinitum. This is hell! Man in his “fallen state” is not a reflection of God, in fact to say he is couldn’t be further from the truth, and I am sure Brother Lawrence would agree with me, although it is some time since I read his book.

    You say you love Jesus, and I don’t doubt that, but do you KNOW him? Jesus askes Peter “who do men say that I am? And Peter replies that men say he is a “sage” and Jesus asks him who he says he is, and Peter replies “You are the Christ the son of the living God”. When we KNOW Jesus everything changes, we see the world through different ‘eyes’ – the single eye.

    The one attribute of God that I know of no ‘sage’ using is PERSONHOOD, in fact this is not an attribute of God, but his very essence, this is what SPIRIT IS. When God made you in his image and likeness he made you a PERSON that is not PERSONA that is just a MASK. What lies behind the mask is who you TRULY are. This is why I like the word THETA because in Scientology it signifies all the most admirable qualities in a human being, but unfortunately THETA gets mixed up with THETAN just as SPIRIT and SOUL become confused.

    What I have written here I write from my heart and I am perfectly ok with you challenging it. I am still a work in process and God has not finished working on me yet.

    Love and ARC

  199. Dear Mark re your reply to Brian

    It is such a wonder when we look for the good in each other, for we all long to be loved and accepted. I am reminded of the American Indian saying “Don’t criticise another man until you have walked a mile in his moccasins”. I also need to remember this.


  200. Dear Elizabeth – your words speak to me of NO-THING – It’s a joy to share my NO-THING with you.


  201. Thanks for that Elizabeth, it reminds me of one of the lines in my favourite poem “IF” by Rudyard Kipling – “if you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat these two imposters both the same”

    Talking about “never left”; A Course in Miracles (ACIM) talks about “the journey home, a journey without distance.”

  202. Question: Who is doing the pinging and who is ponging?

    Elizabeth I was being facetious! –‘ ponging’ a bad smell.

  203. Elizabeth Hamre

    🙂 I never heard that expression before.. this is a vital info you have shared with me…Thank you! 🙂 But I too have given a new reality on the same words so ewe both are better informed… hehehe.. nothing like a new lesson in English.

  204. Elizabeth Hamre

    pip.. more info from you..Thanks, I have not read Kipling and did not do the Course in Miracles but it seems I know those realities.

  205. Elizabeth Hamre

    Dear Pip, here I go again, I have not studied Buddha’s reality, the teaching which is assumed was Buddhas reality. But I will read the link you were good enough to put here for me. What I write is not from books, not from study tapes and I only have taken the requires course when I done the Bridge.. What I write is the knowledge gained, the tens of thousands of cognitions: the end product of the sessions. As you know the knowledge gained through cognitions is the unaltered form of information which is the reality I know as truth. Much the same E.

  206. Hey Pip,

    The story of Christ, in my opinion, was distorted by men who sought power. Claiming to be the “only way”. The Gnostics, Essences, and other eastern practices were considered heresies and people were put to death.
    Constantine chose which writings were “the word of God” and which wasn’t at various councils.

    Don’t you consider it strange that in all four gospels there are the same 18 missing years.

    Mathew, Mark, Luke and John have an account of Jesus until he is 12. Then nothing until he is 30.

    I scored a feature documentary that chronicles those 18 missing years called Jesus in India by Paul Davids, distributed by Universal. Buy the movie on Amazon.

    If you are interested in my spiritual perspective read the best selling book Autobiography of a Yogi. 

    I believe Christian theology was usurped by those seeking power and the crushing of others. It became another “only way”.

    That was not God’s will, that was the will of men seeking power. Jesus as cruxified once on the cross and a million times those men who sought political power in Rome.

  207. Hi Elizabeth

    Thanks for your reply. What you write reminds me of the LRH quote “cognitions are the milestones to case gain”

    I am both a Scientologist and also a believer in The Lord Jesus Christ, and in ‘Christian’ terms “revelations are the road back to being truly one with our maker and our fellow man”.

    Relative truth makes us RELATIVELY FREE
    Absolute truth makes us ABSOLUTELY FREE.


  208. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip… sounds like you are having a grand adventure, good for you!

  209. Elizabeth Hamre

    HI Brian…. are you talking about real power….. or just pure force…One mass of energy pushing away the smaller mass, replacing something with something is not the true power…. that kind of “power’ is pure undiluted bank:implanted actions.. so I don’t see why one mass of energy is better than the other, just named-labeled differently.. Titans playing games. 🙂

  210. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian…. you have MENTIONED that you have studied the SAGES… : my reality, if the “”SAGE”” believes that his reality is better than any other persons , or other SAGES, than that SAGE has a long way to go until he realises that all considerations have the same importance- value and there fore because they are equal they don’t have importance or value. Without value, or importance of anything.. one has than what? 🙂

  211. Elizabeth Hamre

    Brian… few questions for you…. Since you believe what those sages are teaching is TRUE… how do you come to that conclusion? What made you believe? Just because some concepts- realities dribbled down the pike over the ”time” and these concepts collected AGREEMENTS by millions.. those agreements do make those concept the truth?
    The teachings of the sages, where those wise concepts originated from?
    Billions believe in the same concepts but why?
    Have you ever taken these concepts of spirituality, nothingness, void, inside or outside of anything, death. being reborn etc..[ I could list few hundred more of these beliefs ].and take them earlier similar into other places other universes where they were used and what was their purpose just for fun and to find out where they origin?
    Just because there is agreement on some concepts that is not necessarily the truth..
    And there has not been tooooo many new ideas aired out on this planet and because of that some of these ideas collected agreement.. become into vogue since they sounded different, smart, clever, wise, when groups of the same belief formed that group become elite, above, better than other, more important, and therefore had value…. HEHEHEHE and more HEHEHE… pure undiluted implant material… My reality of course…since I never speak for others.
    But I have taken the concepts of spirituality and I have questioned these beliefs by looking for their origin.

  212. Elizabeth my dear! Wonderful questions. Magnificent actually. When I get to my computer today I will seek to answer as best I can.

    BTW, yesterday morning here in LA, I really got a strong sense of you for some reason. You audit others from a distance to help people, don’t you?

    If what I felt was true than you are a sweetie.

  213. Hi Brian

    The story of Jesus Christ is bound to be distorted by men, we all “see through a glass darkly” but the wonder is the more you meditate on the life of Jesus the more the distortions dissipate. That is why meditating on the word of God and auditing are so similar. When one brings the light of truth to bear on a distortion, the distortion erases, whether that be relative truth or absolute truth.

    This film “Jesus in India” sounds interesting, I might track it down. Are you on the credits?

    The Autobiography of a Yogi gets good recommendations from several of my friends; since it is the book that obviously has spoken to you perhaps I will get hold of a copy. Have you heard of A Course in Miracles (ACIM)? Several people who write on this blog “do the Course” me also. Doesn’t Yogi mean yoked to God? Is that not different to being one with God?

    Best regards

  214. Dear Elizabeth

    I had never looked at my life as “a grand adventure” I am too busy living it; but now you mention it, yes I am!

    Pip – Thank you

  215. Elizabeth Hamre

    Dear Pip. that is delightful… just place your-self in a beautiful garden, an your face you feel the heat of the sunrays, bird sings and the breeze moves around you wrap you in contentment. In your hand a lovely piece of porcelain cup filled with hot fragrant tea, on your plate hot sconce with jam covered with clotted cream! one can feast all senses at the same moment if that is not Heaven than what is? 🙂

  216. Elizabeth I am talking about tyrannical power. The creation of Christ as the only being as he is. And the suppression of other systems, practices and interpretations. Another closed minded “only way”.

    Regarding Sages: It so happens that those who have attained the totally freed state, liberation etc, no matter what path they took or what disciplines they followed, have all arrived at the same place.

    The paths are many but the goal is one

    Outside the bubble of Scientology theory and practices, this becomes axiomatic regarding the unity in the true teachers. Truth is experiential, not a doctrine nor is it conceptual. Doctrines, concepts, agreements, disagreements, opinions, extrapolations etc are all in the realm of mind. And mind is not truth.

    Considerations are still in the realm of thought. And thought is not the Truth. Thought or consideration is still wave length.

    Those that have made it, though they may use different customs, practices and words all say that Truth is One.

    When it is experienced as our own true nature, it is perceived as joy, power, light, immortal bliss, intuitive wisdom, command over nature because nature is perceived as a dream texture projected by the dreamer, and as a dream, atomic structure can be arranged, rearranged or created.

    How do I come to the conclusion that these things are true?

    Firstly I am not a fully liberated soul, so I only know what I know, from my own direct experience.

    You asked,”What made me believe?”

    Nothing, I do not just believe, I know.

    Meditation is the process whereby the neutralization of mind/thought becomes possible. When the wave length of thought is stilled, not suppressed, it puts us in direct perception of the soul. And as the stillness goes deeper, we directly perceive even deeper levels of joy, health, calmness, happiness, love, instantaneous intuitive knowing, awareness of immortality on and on.

    At some point in our evolution we leave the mind behind as a much too gross of a tool to register truth. The mind is part of the problem as it is never ending in its permutations and arisings of thought and dualistic tendencies.

    These experiences, that are communicated by these sages, and the practices they instruct to students when they are ready, become experiential through direct perception, were believe is a non essential.

    Believe and faith then, become something based on experience as opposed to being subjugated by some authority or doctrine which regiments by condemnation and group intimidation.

    We believe and have faith in our direct experiences and extrapolate that they will continue. That is the faith of knowing.

    Believe me, you can go as deep into the void, god, nothingness, past life recall, spirit, soul, static as you are capable of, depending on your capacity to devolve and dissolve mind back into it’s essential nature as pure consciousness, ever alive, ever conscious, ever existing and ever filled with unending ever new joy.

    I cannot advise Autobiography of a Yogi too much in understanding the nature of these things. If you can make it through the book and not allow Scientology judgement mind filters to limit the verities that are like precious gems, it will kick start you into another phase of your practice. Or maybe not. It has been a best seller since 1945 and was voted by book publishers in the top 100 most influential and important spiritual books of the 20th century.

    Buddha, Christ, Shankara, Patanjali, Rumi, Vivekananda, Ramakrishna all taught the same thing: when the ego (false identification with of soul the body and with the mind) is dissolved, a radiant immortal self emerges. Ever free, where a soul can say with finality: having which gained, no other gain is greater: the goal of all embodied beings.

    The Vedic culture, the Yogis, have no head, no church, no one practice, no one in charge. Many revelations by many Rishis. Many commentaries by many liberated souls. A totally opened source.

    And what is found in the diversity, is that the goal is one. One goal of total spiritual freedom, with many approaches, according to the mental make up other the student.

    In Yoga, there is a practice for every kind of person: emotional, intellectual, action oriented etc.

    Elizabeth, you have stayed true to your path. You have remained friendly to me even though I have been a critic.
    You have demonstrated your spiritual attainment to me even though you would not take my test. But you took it anyway with out knowing.

    You are still communicating ARC to me through all these discussions. That tells me your practice has given great results. You have demonstrated unconditional granting of being. That is beautiful! I honor that. I mean that. You still see the humanity in me and treat me with respect. That is Scientology! Well done!!!

    Read Autobiography, you can get it from Self Realization Fellowship online. It’s cheap. This book is a portal not a book. I am selling nothing but inspiration.

    See ya on the airwaves 😉

  217. Pip, I have been inviting Jesus into my prayers and mediations every day now for almost 35 years. Sometimes twice or three times a day. He is a major part of my inner life. I don’t talk about it. This will be the last time I bring it up. It’s too personal and I am selling nothing.

    And that is also why I brought up my distaste about a year ago in how Hubbard was depicting Christ.

    I brought up that subject and I am glad others joined in. I am glad Marty said somethings in the matter in a post.

    Jesus was a Yogi. He travelled to India in those 18 missing years along the Silk Road. There are records of him in Jagannath, Tibet, in Ladak and other places. These records have been verified by various people. But as you can gather, it does not go over too well with orthodox Christianity.

    Orthodox Christianity and Islam for that matter, spent many a destructive year desecrating and destroying any connection of these religions to ancient Bharat (India)

    Jesus said, “My yoke is easy.” The etymology of the word yoga means “to yoke” to join the individual soul with the God or the Universal Consciousness.

    Jesus also said, ” when thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.”
    In yoga meditation techniques there is meditation on the spiritual eye in between the eyebrows. In this technique, the energy current of the two physical eyes are merged into a single non dualistic vision and the body is directly perceived as a mass of swirling light: the essential fabric of all space and matter. The experience is quite something.

  218. Hi Brian

    I do hear what you say when you affirm that you invite Jesus into your “prayers and mediations.” Did you mean meditations not mediations? However he wants to “come into your life”, you say “he is a major part of your inner life; and that is great, but the question remains “do you recognise him as your personal saviour”? If you know Jesus personally it is something you would want to shout from the roof tops, and never stop, for it is a life changing experience.

    People that endeavour to degrade Jesus have very little effect on me, for the simple reason I believe that God raised him from the dead and that “Jesus is alive today”. You see for me he is not a character from history but a living reality in my life.

    Hence whether Jesus was a Yogi or not is of no relevance it may be something that “orthodox Christians” get excited about but for me it makes no difference either way. You might enjoy some of Bill Donahue’s videos; this one might be a good one to start on

    Love and ARC

  219. Hi Elizabeth

    That is a very tranquil scene that you paint, and although it is great to rest a while I also like action.

    Ron’s definition of happiness floats my boat “Happiness is the overcoming of not unknown problems towards a known goal and the transcendent contemplation thereof”. So maybe I can combine the two.

    Lots of love

  220. Hi Brian and Elizabeth

    Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through him. Yes he is the “only way” but man has to be free to try as many other ways as he chooses. You will find nowhere in the teachings of Jesus where he tried to stop a person following his own chosen path, the only thing he railed against was “hypocrisy”.

    You can follow as many paths as your heart desires, but until you have “met with Jesus” and “tasted” his path, you are not in a position to make judgements.

    It is important to differentiate between Absolute truth and Relative truth, in fact, it is stated in the Axioms “Absolute truth is unobtainable”. That statement is as near as you are going to get to an Absolute truth in Scientology. It is not, in fact, an absolute truth it is more the nearest you can get to an “absolute lie”. The reason absolute truth is unobtainable is because it is “A FREE GIFT” given by God by grace – UNMERITED FAVOUR.

    I am told the final desire to be relinquished for a Buddhist is the desire for LIBERATION.


  221. Hi Pip,

    You wrote: “It is important to differentiate between Absolute truth and Relative truth, in fact, it is stated in the Axioms ‘Absolute truth is unobtainable’. That statement is as near as you are going to get to an Absolute truth in Scientology.”

    From the context of the Axioms, I think what is meant is that there is no absolute in the physical universe but that there is indeed an absolute in Scientology – it is the absolute of Static, or theta. Here is a quote from *Scientology 8-8008*:

    “It has found that an absolute is unobtainable; neither zero nor infinity are as themselves discoverable in a real universe…”

    And from *Scientology 0-8*, which contains all the Axioms, there is this:

    “Absolute zero is unobtainable in the physical universe. Examination of the absoluteness of “no thing” was required in the course of Dianetic research in the field of the mind and actually brought about some astonishing discoveries with regard to Life itself. It pin-pointed the existence of the awareness-of-awareness unit called the Thetan. The proper definition of zero as in ‘0–8’ would be that of the Static in Axiom 1 of Scientology. Here was discovered a nothingness of quantity (in terms of the physical universe) which nevertheless has qualities—abilities to perceive, to create, to understand, to appear and disappear at choice in various positions in space.”

    Even though Ron may have lost his way in later years, my view is that in the early years Scientology was a complete religious philosophy, based on the original concepts and principles.

  222. Okeedokie Pip 😉

  223. We part on “only way.” Only way is elitist, condescending, ego centric.

    These doctrines were decided in Constantine’s day. Only way religions have caused so much violence in the world.

    These interpretations of scripture have been done by men who did not no God or Jesus. Only way religions are a big problem in the world.

    I am sorry you are part of that. Faith cannot be argued rationally. You will believe what you believe.

    May you find what you seek. 😉

  224. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip, I like your realities, what I have found interesting that Brian is throwing stones at LRH’s teaching and I believe that is not the teaching of Jesus, he teaches not to judge, am I right on this? Please let me know.E

  225. Elizabeth Hamre

    Marildi… I hope I got all what you have said in your post.
    I would live off ”awareness-awareness unit’ [ I do realise you quote LRH] Spirit which is intangible and infinite therefore not a unit of any kind but can be aware but soon as “AWARE” in that moment of awareness is the experience. the experience is when the spirit becomes one with the creation—energy mass.
    “”Nothingness of quantity”” now that is contradictory, there can be quantity of something but not of nothingness And in the physical universe there is no such a thing as emptiness.. maybe for the ”eyes” which cant perceive, therefore look at nothingness.. Correct me of course, to be wrong 🙂

  226. Elizabeth Hamre

    Marildi, I am looking at this awareness of quantity of nothingness… If one is not aware, not having on experience than that moment one is aware of nothing? that can only be if one judges that state.. I am aware of nothing… means, not experiencing any kind of energy mass. But than is being aware of judging … so than is aware of something.. Your thoughts?
    PS I am splitting hair here.

  227. Elizabeth Hamre

    Hi Brian, know the link is connected to Mark but what the hell, we are connected in communication any way
    Regard to your loooooong post to me… Hehehe .. we are predicted huge wind storm coming our way by this evening but by the looks of it has arrived earlier! 🙂
    Brian… I have no disagreement with any ones reality, but I do stand up on my hind legs and put on my weight filled boxing gloves when some one really puts down auditing tech and I go into demolishing mode and I rip that source to shreds. That just happened last week, Vinaire has asked for it. and I have exposed his game in Geir Isenes blog.
    I will not read that book, I know I don’t need it since I have found everything, I have achieved my goals, and my dream has become reality. all the postulates have materialised. So far had the a most incredible life, greatest adventure one can have..
    All this because I have understood the power of the auditing Tech. and what its use can accomplish and I really comprehended what confrontation can do, and what cognitions are. But thank you for offering, kind of you.
    PS: I only audit-give session to Free Being… but I know what has happened when you connected into my space.. You are not the only one who experienced something different, each person is effected a bit differently. .. I come to that conclusion from their communication, how they have described that experience.

  228. Elizabeth, I understand “Nothingness OF quantity” to mean “Nothingness WITH REGARD TO quantity. (The word “of” has the meaning “with regard to” in this context.) In other words, theta is “nothing” only in terms of the physical universe since, as you say, it has no energy or mass. But it’s not a nothingness as regards qualities and abilities.

  229. “I am looking at this awareness of quantity of nothingness.”

    Another way Ron words “awareness of awareness” is “aware of being aware.” I don’t think that is saying anything about what one is or isn’t being aware of. Would you agree that one can be aware of being aware without necessarily being aware of any kind of energy mass?

  230. Elizabeth Hamre

    No.. I cant see that. since awareness is doing-ness, If I am suddenly aware a bee landing on a flower, than I am having a aware experience.. a bee lending on the flower. Even if one do not put significances on that picture one is still aware of the energy mass. Now if one would not have a body and looking through the eyes, but free floating one still would have the experience but no bright sunny lit picture but the experience would be holographic , total experience that means ”seeing” even the tinniest molecule or atom what ever is the smallest . I started to see things like that about 20 years back, I was looking at the tree or a flower but I have seen inside the trunk, seen the roots, how the energy flowed, etc… remarkable but that is the way wee ”see” without the use of the eyes.

  231. Elizabeth Hamre

    Good explanation, thank you!!

  232. Elizabeth you are absolutely right. To make a judgement in truth we would have to have ALL the facts, which would involve TOTAL KNOWINGNESS and only the 8th dynamic has that.

    Jesus says in ACIM “the blameless cannot blame” or in Sino Speak “The overt doth speak loud in accusation”.


  233. Hi, Oh lovely Marildi

    I loved what you wrote. That is a fine quote “Here was discovered a nothingness of quantity which nevertheless had qualities”. Note LRH says that THE STATIC has qualities and then proceeds to list its ABILITIES. Abilities are not qualities. The static’s QUALITIES are LOVE, MERCY and JUSTICE. These are the qualities of THETA, the three qualities that sadly got overlooked in the Church of Scientology. When we were made/created God gave us these qualities which are native to us as spiritual beings (THETA), but we became LIVING SOULS (THETANS) and could choose to act independently of Spirit (THETA) and as a result of our choices we started on the downward spiral into M.E.S.T. Now is the time to CHOOSE AGAIN and start our journey back to SOURCE. A journey without distance, a journey into our minds to return to the place that in truth we have never left – THE MIND OF GOD.

    Love and ARC to both you and Elizabeth

  234. Hi Elizabeth

    Nothingness of quantity is another way of saying NO-THING. NO-THING is not NOTHING, in fact NO-THING contains in itself EVERYTHING but only in POTENTIAL. It is the QUALITIES of NO-THING that brings into being everything, and those qualities are LOVE, MERCY and JUSTICE. However often times when thetans exercise their abilities they have a tendency to invert the qualities of theta and exhibit hate, uncaring and vengeance, and these enturbulate thetans.

    Love and ARC

  235. Elizabeth Hamre

    Marildi a bit more on AWAERNESS…. regardless what one is aware of with that awareness one is captured. That is the item which holds the spiritual captive… Long as one is aware of anything at all one will remain in the MEST Universe. TRAPPED by ability. this was the cog. while ironing the duvet and I had another on,, that is about helping others influencing the universe it self… Since I-me- self is a valance, it indicates the separation, individuality. Now, I like this! It depends how strong these valances are in place just how much -how many considerations-beliefs-agreemment one has that one is self those are the wall’s which keep one in within, therefore the effect one want to create is not attained… When the I, me, the self: the ego is weakened through auditing-erasing mass, the walls fall away and of course the intention to change something in the universe happens. Since you understand the universe I occupy I thought I share this with you. By the way the cat got it but no verbal comment come from her! 🙂 Raining, we are accepting huge windstorm tonight.

  236. Elizabeth Hamre

    Marildi PS I have located erased -found immense amount of traps, walls, barriers, Name it I found it, and till now I did not see awareness it self is the trap. I can be SO VERY UNAWARE Hehehe idiot is the title pops up. This is a basic-basic cog of course and thank you so much for writing about it. 🙂

  237. Elizabeth Hamre

    Marildi do you recall when I written in Geirs blog about the first brightness I have encountered , become AWARE and that was my entry into the MEST U? I have written than ” BECOME AWARE OF” Now that first brightness was my first incident. Hehehe, not bad, not bad at al.. from than on I built a whole universe and solidified it too! We are good.”)

  238. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip, every belief has equal value… when that hated object or idea was created: experienced for the first time IT WAS JUST A EXPETIENCE and hate or love, mercy those concepts had nothing to do with those early experiences when words or verbal communication was not invented yet. We are not on the same page on this …. Children thought to learn from mothers, from other family members at first what is love and hate and what one HAVE TO LoVE AND HATE… this is a subject I will not debate since I have no desire to convince you differently of what you are believing and agreeing to.

  239. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip… The difference is that when entering into religious beliefs that person fallows some other persons truth by agreeing to that teaching, in auditing the person who receives auditing and solo audits they find their own truth. I belong in that group.

  240. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip I had a realization and I thank you for it… I realised the reason why I don’t want to convince others and debate their reality or mine… I have recalled enough incidents where I was done in[ the body] every possible way, killed and been killed for my ideals more often than any other reasons. The history of the universes is written with spilled blood.. and those life times I have spent battling over them never really gotten me anywhere. So my fighting days are over on and this Path where I walk is not littered with bodies slayed because I could not convince them with words. and words believing in them that they meaning is real made me pick up those weapons in the first place..

  241. Dear lovely Pip (men can be lovely too 🙂 ),

    It may have been a mistake to post that quote as it came from the glossary of an older edition of *Scientology 0-8* and I don’t think earlier glossaries had necessarily been written by LRH. I just did a search of materials and could not find any other reference where Ron uses the plural form of “quality” (i.e. qualities) in relation to Theta/Life/Static. It seems to always be “quality,” singular. Here is a definition of “Static” from the tech dictionary:

    STATIC, […] 6 . the simplest thing there is is a static, but a static is not nothingness. These are not synonyms. We speak of it carelessly as a nothingness. That’s because we say nothingness in relationship to the space and objects of the material universe. Life has a QUALITY. It has an ability. When we say nothingness we simply mean it has no quantity. There is no quantitative factor. (5411CM05)

    Notice it says that Life has “a” quality. This gives us some context for the correct definition of “quality.” I like this definition from Merriam-Webster: “peculiar and essential character” (peculiar: “special, particular”).

    That said, I have no disagreement with what you wrote here:

    “When we were made/created God gave us these qualities which are native to us as spiritual beings (THETA), but we became LIVING SOULS (THETANS) and could choose to act independently of Spirit (THETA) and as a result of our choices we started on the downward spiral into M.E.S.T. Now is the time to CHOOSE AGAIN and start our journey back to SOURCE. A journey without distance, a journey into our minds to return to the place that in truth we have never left – THE MIND OF GOD.”

    Love, marildi

  242. Elizabeth, thanks for the above series of comments – very interesting, all of them. And yes, I do recall you writing about becoming aware of the first brightness as your first incident. I think that was one of the posts you’ve written that I thought to myself, “Theoretical physicists of the world, take note!” Too bad they aren’t as “unaware” as your cat. 😉

  243. Whoa Brian, not so fast. There can ultimately be only “one way”. Jesus said I AM the way, do you dispute that I AM is “the way”?

    If you say “I am disagreeing that such and such is the way, you are still prefixing your disagreement with I AM. It is a sobering fact that you can do nothing without prefixing it with I AM, you cannot as much as lift one little finger without prefixing the action with I AM. You can say “lifting little finger” as often as you like and nothing will happen until you say/think I am lifting little finger.

    So never mind “the world began with TR0”, it would not have even began without I AM; I AM is the “only way” and Jesus said I AM. To say otherwise is “elitist, condescending, ego centric”. And incidentally it answers the TREASON FORMULA, anything below that is CONFUSION.


  244. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip… your post has more holes than the Swiss cheese… for 1 demanding total obedience, my way is the only way: total evaluation and with that invalidation any other creations and not allowing beigness,
    If GOD CREATED ALL and all equals in God eyes but than he sure is selective what is right and what is wrong, who sins and who is good.. who will go upstarts, or will suffer for ever burning in hell… the fear factor at work,[ that is blackmailing] to get one into agreement… If that is the way… than that is CONTROL, BLACKMAIL, EVALUATION, INVALIDATION and that makes it a double talk-double standard from the original presentation: what is. PLUS dishing out punishment if not fallow the beliefs that ”I am the way’!

    I am better than you are? I know more than you do? My knowledge is the truth?
    By the way the ”I – me- self’ is segregation and indication of a valance personality and the game that person is playing..

    Condemning others in order to survive for self????? and must have agreement at all cost in order solidify that “I am? is DM not demanding the same?
    are we having fun ? 🙂 woof-woof.. 🙂

  245. Yo! Elizabeth

    We both belong to the same group. I have never been one to follow “some person’s truth by agreeing to that teaching. In fact I got thrown out of my physics class when I was 14 over the issue of whether when a ball bounces it stops when it hits the ground, or only changes direction. I now believe it stops for NO TIME that is my truth, but if you know different please tell!

    Jesus said “the kingdom of heaven is within you” and when you go within you will find that is TRUE. He also said “when you pray go into your closet and lock the door”, he means go within and lock out the distractions of the M.E.S.T. UNIVERSE.

    Now is that not exactly what you are doing when you “solo audit”? Jesus did not come to start a new religion, he came to reconcile you with GOD (THETA), your true self. Auditing either solo or otherwise and meditating on STILLNESS are one and the same thing. Whether you approach it from the 8th dynamic of the 1st dynamic both involve GOING WITHIN, so you see Elizabeth we are in the same group.


  246. Dear Elizabeth

    When I read “we are not on the same page on this” I felt sad, but then I remembered a thetans ability to “turn the page” both backwards and forwards, so now all is well.

    I agree Elizabeth “every belief has equal value”. My dictionary defines belief as “that we deem to be true”. I have thought a lot about what you write, and what keeps coming to mind is the Zen Koan “What did you look like before you had a face”.

    De Cart is remembered for his statement “I think therefore I AM”. I have read that statement has caused untold confusion, and that it should be “I AM LOVED THEREFORE I AM”.

    All EXPERIENCE is preceded by AWARENESS, however AWARENESS is the 2nd POSTULATE which in turn rests on the 1st Postulate AWARENESS OF AWARENESS, this is ASISNESS, and proceeds all conditions of existence including EXPERIENCE. This is WHO YOU REALLY ARE – LOVE and your basic ability is the ability to UNDERSTAND.

    Love and ARC

  247. Elizabeth Hamre

    Hello Pip… I just had communication with Marildi, where I posted my reality what is awareness.. When one is postulating, that means doing something: want something, want change, and when one is aware, that means having a experience in that moment of awareness, ALL THIS BELONGS TO MEST UNIVERSE.

  248. Elizabeth Hamre

    untold confusion, and that it should be “I AM LOVED THEREFORE I AM”.
    Pip….”All EXPERIENCE is preceded by AWARENESS, however AWARENESS is the 2nd POSTULATE which in turn rests on the 1st Postulate AWARENESS OF AWARENESS, this is ASISNESS, and proceeds all conditions of existence including EXPERIENCE. This is WHO YOU REALLY ARE – LOVE and your basic ability is the ability to UNDERSTAND.””
    In the above You are already talking of doing-ness and being-ness
    Pip.. we are in the same page or no page as infinite-intangible but we are not on the same page on the realities how we see and experience our own creation which is whatever we see, feel, know.
    Not having face how one looks like: love this concept, fun too because it reminds one that one is infinite and intangible= no mass, no thought, no abilities, no awareness, no postulating or being anything.. Definitely not aware and labeling things of which one is aware of!!! No can do!
    Pip…“I AM LOVED THEREFORE I AM”. “I think therefore I am.’’
    You bet, that is correct identifying with mass of energy.
    Love itself is a sensation, therefore it has energy mass, and feeling of love, is an experience and give love is a doingness, receive love is also a doingness, but how can one receive love is beyond my comprehension… because in my reality that can’t be done… Since we only can experience what we put there to experience.
    So when I say I am giving you love: in that moment that you conjure “WHAT you BELIEVE HOW LOVE FEELS LIKE’’ and of course you experience that and in that moment and you also hang a label on that experience and say ‘’HE LOVES ME’’’ of course you feel that love, because you put it there, you created that experience.
    This is the problem in love affairs, relationships between two terminals.. : ‘’he no longer loves me’’’ well, that person who don’t experience that love because no longer creates that sensation for self to experience So heads for the divorce court!
    Also the mate can go outside of the relationship [as it happens daily millions of times all over this planet] and starts a new relationship… You see Pip, it is easier to create love or any other sensation in a new unit of time because one gets different stimulation from the new terminal and stimulation creates stimulation.

  249. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip.. ” I have never been one to follow “some person’s truth by agreeing to that teaching.” than why quote continually what other say, believe in? Why you need to use those references to underline so that makes your statement look important? you quote from well know persons who become well know because what they have said.. It seems to me your knowledge collected- compounded from other persons beliefs-reality and use them to make your words important valuable to have credibility that it is fact what you say because….well.. forget that… If I want to know what these persons you quote really said -written than I can go to Wiki and read it there..

  250. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip.. Jesus said “the kingdom of heaven is within you” and when you go within you will find that is TRUE.”
    Elizabeth: In sessions I have questions all the beliefs I ever had and went into agreement with. It has taken me 40 years’ worth of solo sessions and I had practised this method daily: and one of the condensed item I have confronted was what you believe in and I have found on IMPLANT GAME [similar to computer games, but much more detailed and all its concepts are infused with immense amount of energy-mass] which contained all the concepts of Christianity-heaven and hell condemnations etc.. etc.. etc. ..Yes I have found the truth but it was is not as you or jesus have presented.
    Pip…He also said “when you pray go into your closet and lock the door”, he means go within and lock out the distractions of the M.E.S.T. UNIVERSE.
    Pip..Now is that not exactly what you are doing when you “solo audit”? Jesus did not come to start a new religion, he came to reconcile you with GOD (THETA), your true self. Auditing either solo or otherwise and meditating on STILLNESS are one and the same thing. Whether you approach it from the 8th dynamic of the 1st dynamic both involve GOING WITHIN”
    Your interpretation of solo auditing, what is and what happens in session is not my reality and if would have been same as yours than I too would have stopped after OT7 and never pick the cans up again and then I too would have gone back to jesus and except and fallow his reality.
    That did not happened because I have understood what the Auditing TECH can do and what can be achieved when it is used.
    So, we are not on the same page and not even in the same book..

  251. Pip and Elizabeth, I think the two of you may be saying the same thing in different words. There’s a man named Tom Campbell who was educated as a scientist (physicist) and later on spent over 3 decades studying “consciousness.” In this short video, he talks about a “unit of consciousness” as well a “larger consciousness” – and also the idea that truth is truth, even though it is expressed in different ways.

  252. Elizabeth Hamre

    Marildi. you have sent me this video already. Realty is not the same when one has a cognition on the subject or one reads words about the same subject.. This guy explains what LRH has explained and I have done the same few hundred times. I have nothing further to add. PS: I have spent 4 decades to explore the consciousness! and that what one do in session.

  253. Elizabeth Hamre

    Marildi… by now I have accepted the fact that one’s work only has value if through media, dissemination of some kind that work become known and when agree upon by many than that works is accepted and become valuable therefore important and put down as fact—truth.
    When a unknown person who never belonged to the group, whose work is not known by many therefore have not been evaluated by the masses and through that not collected agreement.. that work is not recognised and when it read and dismissed since it has no value-importance because the person who has done the work is unknown.
    I have confronted these facts, had to because I have had ARCB’s galore. By now when I get evaluation similar to what you have implied I know that evaluation is coming from not understanding.
    You have read thousands of my posting and many of my cognitions and you have read the history of the past 40 years what I have been doing… yet .. you never really duplicated the facts…

  254. Elizabeth: “By now when I get evaluation similar to what you have implied I know that evaluation is coming from not understanding.”

    What did you think I implied? The only thing I meant to communicate was that, to me, you and Pip seemed to be saying the same thing in different ways. If that was an incorrect “evaluation,” then okay – I got it. But nothing else was “implied.”

    IMO, misunderstandings can easily happen when words are being used to communicate about spiritual ideas. Basically, I was just trying to help. But forget about it if you aren’t interested in my take.

  255. Elizabeth Hamre

    Marildi , your take always welcome but my understanding what I read into it should also be welcome.. 🙂

  256. Elizabeth Hamre

    Marildi.. because of your communication I had a realization and part of the realization confirmed [ not for the first time] that my viewpoint can be idiotic. and that viewpoint can be changed and it has and once more the universe looks different. Thank You My dear ! 🙂

  257. Elizabeth Hamre

    Dear Pip… I thank you for the communication, for sharing your thoughts and because of your reality it has given me a new opportunity to learn from. in other word , your communication was a valuable gift. BEST.Elizabeth

  258. Elizabeth Hamre

    Dear Pip… here is something from my blog and because of your reality and Marildis post I have gained one more cognition which I named PEARL and I can add this peal to the already existing long string.
    The cognitions are like pearls..
    Each one is being born out of pain and sufferings,
    They arise out of mystery, secrets and the deep darkness of the long forgotten
    Yet how beautiful they are!
    They vary in their importance before they evaporate
    Yet they remain yours for eternity in form of invisible knowledge.
    The basic cognitions are the rarest of al pearls, since only few exist
    But their value is the exchange which buys your freedom out from the MEST Universe.
    I wish for you string of pearls containing: happiness, wisdom and knowledge.

  259. Wow, Elizabeth. Awesome!

  260. Hi Elizabeth

    You said “Love itself is a sensation, therefore it has energy, mass, and feeling of love is an experience, and give love is a doingness, receive love is also a doingness, but how can one receive love is beyond my comprehension”.

    I think you are confusing LOVE with AFFINITY they are two quite different concepts. Affinity is defined in Scientology as “the consideration of distance” so it must contain SPACE, hence it must contain MASS. Theoretically if one could cause two masses/terminals to occupy the same space at the same time it would cause the vanishment of both terminals. The only THING/NO-THING that is capable of this is A STATIC. The relationship between static and static is LOVE. There is NO MASS involved because there is no space (distance). This cannot happen in this M.E.S.T. universe. LOVE IS AN ABSOLUTE TRUTH, AFFINITY is a RELATIVE TRUTH.

    Love and A.R.C.

  261. Hi Elizabeth

    You say “I too would have gone back to Jesus and accept and follow his reality”. That implies that you were once a “follower of Jesus”. There are many false christs and I am sure the ‘whole track’ is littered with them, but that does not automatically invalidate the real thing.


  262. Oh! Marildi

    What a lovely man this Tom Campbell is. I went on to watch/listen to more of what he is saying. Physics is one of my passions; in fact, I was removed from my physics class when I was 14 years old because I would not accept that when a steel ball is dropped on to a steel plate it does not stop but only changes direction. That just did not make sense to me. I have thought about this off and on for the past 58 years, in fact I posted the question on a physics forum and it generated quite a discussion!

    I also watched this one by Tom Campbell

    This paper by Arthur J Deikman – “I = Consciousness” I also find this illuminating

    I would enjoy communicating with you one to one if you are agreeable, my e-mail address is (that’s an underscore between pip and Threlfall)

  263. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip… I never met the man I only read some of his work therefore I have no reality on him and only have opinions.. which are assumptions.. his teaching hold no attraction for me…

  264. Hi Pip! Yes, Tom Campbell is another lovely man. I’ve watched many of his videos, including the one you posted the link to – which is one of the best.

    Okay, I’ll email you soon. Maybe after I have a chance to read that Deikman paper – looks very interesting!

  265. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip.“”I think you are confusing LOVE with AFFINITY they are two quite different concepts. Affinity is defined in Scientology as “the consideration of distance” so it must contain SPACE, hence it must contain MASS. Theoretically if one could cause two masses/terminals to occupy the same space at the same time it would cause the vanishment of both terminals. The only THING/NO-THING that is capable of this is A STATIC. The relationship between static and static is LOVE. There is NO MASS involved because there is no space (distance). This cannot happen in this M.E.S.T. universe. LOVE IS AN ABSOLUTE TRUTH, AFFINITY is a RELATIVE TRUTH.””
    No confusion on my part.. right : There is no Space…no Time….no Energy..only Mass.. all that is made up from tiny particles..[ including the image of Jesus.. LRH, you and I and my cat too!] and different parts given different names broken down to concepts…
    Absolute truth is a cognition which contain 0 mass, it cannot be not altered for that reason, do not belong terminal therefore do not have location either.. So cannot be given or felt.
    Please PIP…” The only THING/NO-THING that is capable of this is A STATIC. The relationship between static and static is LOVE”
    With that you indicate: TWO DIFFERENT TERMINALS OCCUPIEING SPACE.. who have created mass.
    Pip.” Theoretically if one could cause two masses/terminals to occupy the same space at the same time it would cause the vanishment of both terminals””
    Why not take the above concept into session and find the fact out for self, than one do not need to assume, but KNOW.

    I will not take any mans truth as my own.. no matter how well it sounds.

  266. Elizabeth Hamre

    I have expressed my self wrong… no I never belonged to Jesus’s group. I have very short track on this planet.

  267. Erzsebet
    Have you looked over the actual goals from Incident 1 ? Ron made fairly good headway into handling Implant GPMs but according to my work, never resolved the circular nature of the agreed goals from that era. The original goals were perfectly sensible at the time and may remain uncharged, but the conflicts between them (by design) have given us a really wild ride.

    Since, as you stated you are not particularly troubled by BTs, you shouldn’t have had any problem with examining a lot of incidents. Discovering this aspect of case REALLY opens up a lot of understanding of why people, including you and I, do the things we do. It’s a big thing.

    This is the real why as to Ron’s statement that people generally know their basic purpose in life by the time they are 4 yrs old. Hint: You’ll get and resolve a lot of Rock Slams going over this.

  268. Elizabeth Hamre

    Mark LRHs incident 1 is not my incident when I entered into the Universe.

  269. Erzsebet,
    Are you a newbie? What were you up to before? How the hell did you sneak in here? I’m afraid I got my immigration papers in the usual way. LOL

  270. Elizabeth Hamre

    Hehehe.. very new, just a few lifetimes here, about a 7…

  271. christianscientology

    Elizabeth, you only have to live one life time to belong to “Jesus’s group”. In fact it is only necessary to experience the moment of NOW.


  272. christianscientology

    Thanks Marildi

    What I particular liked about Tom Campbell apart from his gentle sincerity was his questioning as a physicist what preceded the “Big Bang” which in HARD SCIENCE is a no-go area. I have a similar problem with one of my sons who is an archaeologist and believes in Evolution. When I ask him “fine but where does LIFE itself come from” he just says “Dad we don’t go there”, and that’s the end of the conversation.

    I have nothing against Evolution or the big bang theory, but can’t help being curious as to what preceded these events, and CONSCIOUSNESS fits the bill.

    I look forward to some one-to-one communication and will also be interested to hear what you have to say regarding the Deikman paper. I did try to get in touch with him but he is quite ancient and also appears to be unavailable.

    Lots of love

  273. christianscientology

    Hi Elizabeth

    I assume “the man” is Jesus. What you say is very profound. Many Christians have “read some of his work” and like you “have no reality on him and only have opinions”. However there are others who have met him and the encounter has changed their lives, for to know him is to KNOW GOD, and to know God is TO KNOW THEY SELF.


  274. Elizabeth Hamre

    TO BRIAN AN PIP TO YOU DEAR BEINGS.. You both have been kind and sharing your universe with me, by writing of your beliefs -realities. I thank you for that. With this post I too would like to share my reality my beliefs and MY REASON BELIEVING IN THE AUDITING THECH. This post is from my blog.. No one will ever know unless Walks the walk of Solo Auditor: what self-control, what will power, what courage it takes to walk that lonely road until one commit self to step on that Path and walks on.
    No one will ever know just how many questions one need asks in order to learn the answers to understand the SELF created universe.
    How one crawls half unconscious at times in quest of understanding: the why?
    What the body goes through in this session, how it is assaulted with immense amount of energy masses.
    How many times one falls on ones face and grits teeth get up have a win enjoying the moment of victory the cognition than back to session one goes.
    In each session One walks through Hell which is the MEST in every shape and form.
    The cycles of depressions, commands of suicide: to eliminate self are there they are powerful implants, and all illnesses their source must be confronted and as-is since they influence all activities and alter the body: these considerations-agreements all have to be confronted one by one.
    Of course there are thousands of run of the mill implants one must walk though, and also confront the magical universe!
    Let’s not forget the greatest traps we set for self “the Great Unknown” which we have created by believing that we don’t know anything about it, that it is a mystery, the unknowns and we must solve these puzzles, which are filled with un-confronted experiences but were pushed away by us because their weight we no longer could carry also has interfered with our newly created games.
    But every one of these experiences from the track which contains all the game we ever created have to be summoned up once more and confronted since they contain not only triumphs, great victories our monumental achievements but our punishing fears and our fails and these forgotten games still effect the present daily activities and in them we experience again those past activities in a much smaller scale and on a much lower tone level.
    We have immense amount hidden stuffs- junk in form of considerations which is out reality and these believes- agreements are the walls – curtains screens and separates but at the same moment holds self in the confinement within these beliefs.
    The states after death[ existence without the body] is very difficult to walk through but need to be confronted and these are the beliefs one has to face while having a body in order not to be effected when one no longer is anchored to one.
    And I won’t leave out the greatest traps one have to face and these are all the PLEASURE MOMENTS since they are the most difficult to confront but they hold the experiences which have addictive nature because of those reasons they pull the being back into the MEST games over and over.
    The self seeks, wants, needs desires these moments because accept as true’s that what they contain is happiness, pleasure, bliss –amorous sensations and they are the answers out: the very beliefs that when one experiences these conditions than one is out of the MEST :Key out of injury-hurt and is into survival.
    I say from experience: there are traps so well concealed from self that one must use power of the greatest determination ferreting them out in order to confront them once and for all in order to regain the power of self which is knowledge self- determinism.
    There are many straps which indicates there is no more that finally one has walked out of the traps but they are the very beliefs “that there is no more, that one is free, one is finally out” but these concepts are implanted in order not to let the person go but to still remain in the grip of the MEST beliefs.
    Just how many times one believes that it is finally over,[ in 40 years in session I have accoutred dozens of these implanted beliefs] than one realises that one still have stimulations: there are feelings, thoughts, views and one has to go back to session with pick and shovel and carry on.
    Finally when the cognition hits and one knows: totally convinced that one is OUT because sees nothing: no more pictures [only some sensations] and that is one major powerful trap one just fallen into in the form of VOID [ same goes for nothing-ness and empty-ness and secrets] and here one becomes aware there are no paths no signs toward the Theta universe and MEST U. is vanished too.
    The VOID is empty: holds no AWARNESS.
    Now one is in-between universes, MEST has gone: one has been emptied: One is hallow.
    YET after a while this void restimulates turns on: The agony –misery of the emptiness: the void of all what was known experienced , the huge feeling of loss hold one in prison and these are the indicators of a new beginning, new day, back to session one must go and only confronting the VOID and all its related concepts one slowly become aware again and can move out of the great emptiness.
    The Void was created as a trap to lead one back to for reach once more for the MEST games.
    One finds out is session even that void that emptiness is part of the MEST it is there to pull back the person into MEST to the “Mama”, it is there because one feels lost without and must go back to MEST which he knows – understands and where can have game going: to the familiarity.
    Hundreds of auditing hours needed to overcome that barrier alone!
    The rewards pour in as one walks the self-created path one regains understanding on MEST down to the last rusty nail and understands all about energy and how it works and what is.
    The power one has which can as-is everything:can melts away titanium, which is fluff and nothing more. MEST is made up from, by tiny energy particles and nothing more, what it is there outside of those particles are the illusions which we call life.
    Incomprehensible magnitude of knowledge is gained in form of cognitions after each sessions: that is understanding of self, what self is capable doing and what is ones role is in the universe and how that knowledge which one has accumulated do affects the universe.
    That attained level is not duplicable in long as one has the MEST reality because from that reality Theta do not exists.
    Words, knowing words will not do the trick to free one from the grips of the MEST.
    One has to duplicate the belief one has in order to gain knowledge and knowing the meaning of the words is not good enough.
    Theta can duplicate MEST because Theta creates MEST but MEST –reality can’t duplicate Theta.

  275. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip… I only believe in cognitions the rest is there exist all the other agreements belief to confront and have a new reality surface. That is my way. I do hope Marty will let through one of the post from my blog and that could give a bit of reality that I have not been idle for the period of time since I walked out of the church.

  276. Elizabeth Hamre

    PIP…. I NEVER EVER BELONGED TO THAT GROUP.. NEVER EVER.. I have to emphasises that. each persons universe IS what they believe in… no more no less.. and mine never contained that I belonged there. as I said I only know of it… Have a gran evening!

  277. christianscientology

    “Me thinks you do protest too much!”

  278. christianscientology

    Hi Elizabeth

    Cognitions are great; in fact they are the “milestones to case gain”. When all the cognitions have been cognited there will be nothing left but UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. This is the static, this is who you really/truly are.

    Lots of love

  279. christianscientology

    Elizabeth, I also believe in the “Auditing tech”. I must admit I never got to grips with “Solo auditing” it always seemed to me a bit like talking to oneself, which here in England is considered the first sign of madness! I believe the second sign is answering yourself. Be that as it may, I was under the impression that if one is Solo auditing one needs a C/S, you never mention your C/S.

    I am not sure when Solo auditing becomes Self auditing but I understand that Self auditing is something to be avoided.

    You say “Theta can duplicate M.E.S.T. because Theta creates M.E.S.T.”. This is a term I haven’t heard of before. Theta can certainly ASIS MEST and can also create a perfect duplicate, but I am not sure if it would be correct to say “Theta can duplicate MEST” but I am open to receive another view point.


  280. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip.. it is your loss since you went up on the OT levels and did not duplicate the material, the drills, therefore you could not understood what solo auditing was all about you missed out gaining a ability and what when it is used can do. Now Pip If you could duplicate ”Theta can duplicate M.E.S.T. because Theta creates M.E.S.T.”. ” this than you would not in the need of different view point. We cant duplicate each others reality how we perceive we only can go into agreement and even that agreement is what WE THINK–ASSUME WHAT THE OTHER PERSON SAID.. So we just go into agreement with our own reality. HEHEHE

  281. Elizabeth Hamre

    your reality.. thank you”) and you judge accordingly and continually!

  282. christianscientology

    Hi Elizabeth

    Thanks for your reply, however the question I particularly hoped you would answer was, with all this “solo auditing” you are doing, do you have a C/S?

  283. Elizabeth Hamre

    My answer is… if I say yes, if I say no. either way: would not make any difference you would judge from your own belief where I am at.. Right?

  284. Pip, that Deikman article was awesome. I wrote you about it yesterday so if it hasn’t landed in your spam folder, you should have received it by now.

    Love, marildi

  285. christianscientology

    I would hope I would evaluate a situation on account of the data that I have, as well as being influenced by my belief system. When asked in the film “Introduction to Scientology “why Scientology” LRH replies “because it works”. Note he did not say “because it works FOR ME”. Scientology is not a “head game” it must stand the test of inspection hence it would seem essential to me that any auditing action must be supervised by an independent party. So really it is a very simple question, either you have a C/S or you don’t, and if you don’t then my understanding is that what you are doing is not Standard Tech. No judgement just the way it is. Incidentally you come across much younger than your years. That is a judgement!

  286. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip.. I don’t see any reason getting into the game of right or wrong.. nothing productive comes out of it.. scientologist and other groups been doing it for centuries and what is the result? establishing what IS calls for putting guide lines, laws fences, and walls up.

  287. Elizabeth Hamre

    Pip… few years back a guy from LA a registrar has come to my sisters house where I live . My sister too is Full OT7 what ever that means… This guy Will said that the old OT levels were wrong and we should be redoing them because now they work and before they did not. We laughed him out of the house. I hope you get the point.

  288. christianscientology


  289. christianscientology

    I hope you offered him a cup of tea!

  290. Elizabeth Hamre

    Oh we give him lunch.. 🙂

  291. Erzsebet:
    “And I won’t leave out the greatest traps one have to face and these are all the PLEASURE MOMENTS since they are the most difficult to confront but they hold the experiences which have addictive nature……”
    Do you even know how true that statement is. So few people realize this. ALL bad experiences which have a bad effect on you are based on earlier instances when you had a great time. The times that you spent a lot of effort on a project or ability, and ACCOMPLISHED IT are the most powerful fixed opinions, stuck postulates, unchangeable traits you have. These are the things upon which all engrams, implants, GPMs, harmful intentions, etc etc owe their power. They can also be the most difficult to find. No mass, no confusion, no inconsistency is attached to these original events.

    Building a reactive bank was fun and useful at the time. Tell me, who was it who suggested you keep a solid diary of everything you see and do? Made sense at the time.

    This is why examining your past existence has to be a PART of enlightenment. Knowledge and present time techniques can release one from many of these fixed traits, but a lasting and complete understanding must include a thorough examination.

    Sustained effort. Like digging a ditch, you just keep chipping away at it. You will be surprised at how strong you’re back gets after a little while.

    I don’t discount any other work. I welcome and employ it. This is high value data.

  292. Elizabeth Hamre

    Mark here is a post from my blog “LRH said that pleasure moments enhances survival….. pigswill… and no insult intended toward pigs.

    “””LRH said that pleasure moments enhances survival.””” “THAT IS TRUE” yeeeeeeees.. Survival in the MEST and he has demonstrated that by his actions how he has conducted -lived his life.

    To become more solid petrified into total solidity… To be walled in, buried under, suppressed into… than have a cross placed on one’s ”soul” which reads: died wealthy … was flush… loaded.. well off, was well known important person therefore remembered by many…. Therefore he had value.. a treasured being he was…[Shit]… had it all- everything… did more than the average Jo, controlled more, had others at his back and call, Made others do what he wanted to do, controlled uniformed slaves…. as are SO. Sign them up for billion years to be servant to MEST, to remain in that position, walled into MEST through his will his command his control..

    To have control to such an extent to affect beings –beings for billion years….. Bloody Hell… in the name of Clearing the Planet, to make others free, and meanwhile the ”self” to be wedged into MEST by a promise and by a gained ” Pleasure moments?

    Since signing for such an extended time period ’Billion years”[ the numbers alone meant to impress]that signed document given being a value-importance=pleasure moment “in pride”. And that PROMISE alone will hold that being captured enslaved in MEST as a servant, unless has that deed confronted in session and those item and earlier similar ones audited out.
    Hell… Agreements- pacts, are un-cut invisible strings which hold the being to the promised forever and a day…that is not a Spiritual Path one should walk in order to attain the infinite State and it has nothing to do with spirituality…[ LRH even controlled through making others to promise… What was that? His bank has demanded such … he needed the glorification of what he could do] Those were his pleasure moments to bend the will of others and that given him his power…

    His reality went only so far, that height that level… I would call his level his reality on spirituality none existent… He has trapped beings In Hell by their believing in ” spirituality” because those souls believed that is an only way out… LRH committed offense of the highest magnitude.. …. he was trusted and he used that trust to trap, and to benefit from trust of others..

    He built his church, his “corporation” on the formula of a ” Implant stations” the Membered are totally re-stimulated in that environment… can’t think for them self…

    He has ignored the vulnerability of every being, that their stimulation was enhanced there, he has known the Banks power yet use that power to control, to gain wealth for him self.

    He counted – calculated on the power of ONE Word and on its magical draw-quality “SPIRITUALITY” through that concept ability to gain, to acquire more MEST.. That was his spirituality- the pleasure moment was measured how well one was doing in the MEST universe what one could own…

    LRH was admired for his skills which were related- linked in with control of MEST…He was venerated for his ability to “dazzle … amuse… charm… had huge personality, magnetism and he used that as a tool to gain and control…. I don’t see any spiritual …divine…mystical…supernatural ability there, not for one second, but pigswill…[I hope the pigs are not insulted since it is not my intention to put down their nourishment as something bad as LRH’s reality.]

    Pleasure moments are the heaviest traps because their addictive nature lures the being back over and over, and the being in fact continually search out those actions- which produces by having= the experiences of pleasure…

    Pleasure Moments can be handled regardless of their nature, since the pleasure moments are just doing-ness sensations, vibrations feelings desires moods wishes wants needs cravings hungers thirsts all are implanted passions, mental emotional state of some kind.

    In my reality, all conditions can be audited out regardless.. Since I speak from experience gained in sessions.

    Pleasure moments are highly addictive because the person wants it needs it and continually- actively looks for it: by seeking out the pleasure moment as ”good” have become on activity which is worth living for, without pleasure life has no value, has become meaningless..
    What a bowl of crap… to make the humans believe that pleasure is the answer.. and what pleasure continual seeking..looking for those moment ensures that the person is trapped in the solid world of pleasure and in pleasure one will never find the infinite.. the freedom from all what having-owning experiencing provides.


  293. Elizabeth Hamre

    MARK # 2 on same Pleasure moments.
    LRH only say a few words about pleasure moments in the dictionary: “only addressed if the PC is stuck to it, blah blah….blah.

    I ask, who has not been stuck to the pleasure moments, who do not reach for those moments continually? Who do not postulate that to happen for the future, I ask?

    Who are those persons who do not buys, collects, eats drinks wears and talks of things which cause the pleasure moments?

    Who are those who do not celebrate, prepares feast and servers the best foods, wines, and pops the corks of champagne bottles, lifts the glass in celebration?

    Wears clothing because items the color the texture, designs gives pleasure to have and feel, experience?

    Just think of dinning out: the restaurants, the dishes all there to present to give a pleasure moment.

    Concerts, plays and games of of all kind carter to all the different tastes [reality] all created to do the same, for enjoyment: for the pleasure of it.

    Holiday resorts, ocean cruises, any kind of adventure, every one of them were created, dreamed up to please all the senses…..

    Just think, the gifts given and received by billions each year they were given and received for the sheer pleasure of it.

    Tthe love making, the loving, every kiss planted, all are there to please….

    The gardens… to visit, to enjoy, the books by billions of them there are to choose from in order to enjoy.

    The various courses, numbered in thousands all contain knowledge and are offered to learn from to enhance ones enjoyment, pleasure of having…in pleasure of living…

    The great collections of arts are there to enjoy and these were created and viewd to have pleasurable experiences too…..

    So are the prostitutes, booze, smoke to inhale…the lamp light, and the star-studded indigo blue space…..dew drops on every blade of grass in the first morning light…..

    No matter where one looks what one experiences one time or other, was created to cause pleasure to please the senses…..

    So what are Pleasure Moments? Simply what is living, what humans consider what is life here on Earth at its best.

    Knowing that everything is part of the bank is just fine nothing wrong with that since one is not having less if one has such a knowledg-understanding and knowing something like that is not reason to dash out buy 3 meters of rope and hang self to get away from the created-the bank and to end ones life here on Earth. Far from that..!.

    No…..But it is good to know when one gets into session everything can be handled equally, since on the long run the bad and the good have equal value: none.

    To be free as a spiritual being, to be cause, total cause one has to as is all the MEST in order to be free:this includes the pleasure moments.
    Since it is the pleasure moments are the most addictive part of the BANK because the being continually go back to it… or recreates it.. I would call that being stuck in those incidents….

    To be able to start the game all over again but this time in new unit of time by having knowledge under ones belt and that way one will never be trapped again in the solidity of the agreed considerations.

    I do wish you the great adventure embarking on that Path of Knowledge: the self-discovery. .

  294. Erzsebet and others.
    Loved your comments on pleasure moments and MEST and traps and desire. Very detailed, very poetic. It has reminded me of some things I need to look at. I have a file that will last a few years. But it’s fun.

    But what you described is not what I was talking about. The areas you went over are extremely valuable and are not to be discounted..I wish to add to and complete some of those quests. You may be new to this universe, but you have been along in this series of universes from the start. If you are here, you were there.

    I was referring to wins, moments of accomplishment, new abilities invented, long before MEST was solid or significant. These were not pleasure moments as would be thought of today or any time recently. The only desires were for ideas and interaction, for new occurrences. This is a very important distinction.

    These most basic fixed opinions, these earliest decisions occurred before large common universes, before games universes, (individual and small group playgrounds) and into the dimension conflicts when the basic constructs of common interaction were pretty much agreed. Most were before this era when all was new and freewheeling.

    The method.
    Do not do this until all problems with BPC and overrun are gone. When you can look at the past with the viewpoint of pure adventure and curiosity, with no concern whether you find an answer to what you are looking for today, you can begin. Realizations on the Tao and mindful observation are necessary. The full knowledge of the timelessness of life, and the fact that the time track (one occurrence following and adding to another) is actual.

    Trace back a series of similar events, whether variants of R3, R6, R2-12, dichotomies, etc. Get back to full EP, cognitions, resolution of confusion. Put down the cans if using them. In your current state, big F/N, feeling great, new awareness, the fun can begin. Now ask these questions. These are my words, use your own and add questions as an understanding of the principals progresses for you.

    “What adventure, quest, desire, fun, curiosity, search, accomplishment, triumph, led you to this event.”
    Look for an enjoyment, not a MEST pleasure. What were you confident of before this incident.
    Recall successes, achievements, related and similar to the actions of this incident. Ignore failures and disappointments. Look for doingness, action, using your ability to cause something to occur. Ignore opposition and adversaries except to assist in finding what ability you used to overcome it.
    “What was the primary, major ability used to accomplish this effect.” “What were you good at doing, causing.” Creating beauty is one line on this. Showing others is another line.
    Locate some incidents when you were successful at using this ability.
    Locate when you first discovered this ability. Look at the actions you accomplished with this ability.
    Look at the thoughts preceding this ability, invention, accomplishment, development. Such as “I was bored” or “It would be interesting if these balls could bounce against each other” or any other thought.
    When you get the realization of “That’s why I…” such as “want to”, or “like to”, or “am good at” or some such cognition, you’re done going backwards.
    Now go forward, looking at many times you used this ability, failed at this ability, had conflicts, counter intentions and purposes related to this ability. There will be many chains related to this basic event.
    When you discover that you are free from and free to be this individual, that you can do this or do something else freely in similar circumstances, you are done. Scanning back up the track is what makes the gains permanent.
    Do not mix this with present time processes, such as spotting masses, mock ups etc. This is discovery, not exercise. This is prior to mechanics of mental MEST.

    There are additional details to this search. There are more to be discovered. Stuck intentions, purposes, character traits can be run similarly. Run this while it is fun and there is no counter effort.

  295. Additionally:

    Full Dianetic erasure is not erasure at all, but a deeper form of release.
    Finding other times you used those old, forgotten decisions produces full understanding and freedom of thought. The ability to change your mind. The ability to act fully in present time with full knowledge and judgement.

  296. Elizabeth Hamre

    Mark… BUT…..than you continue….
    Mark if the language would not contain the word BUT than we all would be in the same reality, walking in the same shoes, looking like those wood Russian dolls fitting into the same look and same box.
    I am a gardener and I never heard once the word BUT…. the rose is beautiful but, the lilac is lovely but.. 🙂 the stars look bright tonight but, .
    question for you are you a trained C/S? asking because you C/S, telling what I should do.

  297. Elizabeth Hamre

    Mark you have used the word ”important” few times. Here is a post from my blog.. My consideration what is important. importance..important… value=FEAR
    Important, having importance, making something important is done by “thinking and believing” those possessions which we own have value..and they do have value..!! simply because we say so..
    The value is agreed upon assigned reality and there is no more to what ”value” is.
    Example: 1 carat perfect diamond in the jewelry store is about $ 40000.00 that value exist the value because the diamonds value is controlled by the cartel in fact that diamonds true value is $200.00
    Well… important: having importance and value: believing in those thoughts, holds those belief in space forever and a day… or till confronted.

    Example having life= believing that body is the self and the self only exist long as the body exist.
    Living= continual creation+ one believes that there is past and future.
    Being somebody=recognised and agreed upon bunch of considerations what is existence, what is being somebody, usually means what that being is Doing: I am a doctor, I am a gardener. NO those are not the Theta but doing-ness.
    Owing things to which ”having value or important ” is assigned with those considerations established one automatically has GAINED FEAR = fear exist because there is worry it might be that important valuable object will become lost or stolen and that important thing.. persons somehow will disappear.. and therefor that valuable persons or items wont be wont among our possessions=havingness..

    Fear only exist because the thought is attached to a items which can be anything including body -person that is valuable=important.. one can’t do without because life is not worth living if one dont own it, have it!
    When one confronts the compounded considerations-agreements galore: why one holds the universe so valuable and important and why those consideration of ”value–importance” were attached to some beliefs and solid items than these values-importance’s will melt away and at the same times and the “fear to will be evaporate for ever”.
    Value.. Importance is same as Beauty which only exist in the eyes of the beholder.
    Confront anything important, look into why something is held so valuable-important and in that moment of confrontation the meanings will erase- vanish.
    That is a good indicator that you have believed that Illusion are real and on the other hand If you are happy contented playing the MEST games.
    BUT by all means do not give up the your valuable-important considerations because without them you wont have a game….

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